In-Sight Publishing

2022-12-08

Freedom and Hiba Tawaji’s “Min Elli Byekhtar”

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/28

Hiba Tawaji is a Lebanese artist and singer. In a recent song entitled “Min Elli Byekhtar,”she sung about the freedom from both the removal of the ban on women driving in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia and the removal of the veil.

Within the video, Tawaji sings on the freedom to drive. In the music video, she is driving in a tunnel. While about to exit the tunnel, one can notice a hijab on her. The symbolism and reality in one with the inability to drive and forced veiling coming to the ability to drive and removal of the veil.

But the great piece of artistry and symbolism, which Yasmine Mohammed exclaimed about, was as, in song video, Tawaji removed the veil, entered the end of the tunnel and exited into a bright and sunny day. It becomes less literal as a song about the ability to drive and the removal of the veil inasmuch as the symbolism of general freedom through living without a veil and driving on one’s own, as an adult.

Some of the translations, though potentially wrong, from Arabic to English speak about the realization of not being the same old girl. That is, someone who found a new freedom in the ability to travel in a way unknown as generations before her.

Other lyrics talk about the cage of iron and the impossibility of caging a bird in a prison of iron. Of course, she is the bird, removed the veil, left the tunnel vision, drove away, and off into a sunset of freedom as she grew her wings of independence — and so, with her then, the same for others in the Kingdom of Saudi Arabia.

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In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes

2022-12-08

In Conversation with Maya Bahl on Ethnicity and Race

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/28

Maya Bahl is an editor and contributor to The Good Men Project with me. She has an interest and background in forensic anthropology. As it turns out, I hear the term race thrown into conversations in both conservative and progressive circles. At the same time, I wanted to know the more scientific definitions used by modern researchers including those in forensic anthropology. Then I asked Bahl about conducting an educational series. Here we are, part one.

1. Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Looking at the ways in which the concepts of race and ethnicity are used for real discovery about the natural world in forensic anthropology, how does this differ from the standard pseudoscientific and racist theories with use, at times, as political and social tools?

Maya Bahl: Race and Ethnicity have been effective in defining humanity, whether it’s solving a crime or at a basic level, identifying populations and opening communication gaps. As the ever-evolving study of people and groups change, however, other standard pseudoscientific and racist theories have emerged, where it can be distracting.

Spurring on hatred as we see in political movements as Naziism or social tools as Islamophobia takes this much-needed conversation on tolerance back instead of forward.

2. Jacobsen: Evolution by natural selection is the foundation of biological sciences and medical sciences. In North America, this theory can be denied by large portions of the population, leave large parts of the population at a low cultural-scientific level.

Ironically, the leaders in denial of theory tend to promote Social Darwinism views on the social order.

Without knowledge of evolution, and connected to the previous question, and if indoctrinated with pseudoscientific and/or racist theories of human beings, how does this limit a citizen’s worldview?

Bahl: Efforts have happened in limiting cultural and scientific awareness, like with what we saw in The State of Tennessee v. John Thomas Scopes, or more commonly known as the Scopes Monkey Trial in the U.S from the early 1900s, where a school system denied the teaching of human evolution.

Ongoing efforts in quelling human evolution’s existence in education have also happened since, where it is a loss in not embracing the fundamental fact of us coming from the earth.

It does seem that whatever is favourable to teach by a handful of people, then it shall be taught, even if it’s Social Darwinism by another name! This also seems to run top-down systems where the people at the top would have the most say, that they are the ones fittest for survival.

3. Jacobsen: Continuing from the previous question, how might this influence the conversation around proper, scientific definitions of race and ethnicity, e.g., those seen in forensic anthropology literature?

Bahl: The conversation would be affirmed or denied by those who are perceived to have the most say and power.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Maya.

References

SAHO. (2017, May 8). Pseudo-scientific racism and Social Darwinism. Retrieved from https://www.sahistory.org.za/article/pseudo-scientific-racism-and-social-darwinism-grade-11.

Manning, K.R. (1999, September 4). ESSAYS ON SCIENCE AND SOCIETY: Science and Opportunity. Retrieved from http://www.math.buffalo.edu/mad/special/pseudoscience-race.html.

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2022-12-08

Physical and digital bullying

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/28

Bullying, physical and digital, is taken as if a simple fact of life. It does not have to be a part of life.

Even if one experiences it, you do not have to be a victim to the circumstance. You can overcome the associated difficulties involved in the kinds of the bullying received in everyday life and in professional life too.

Say you are working at a fast food joint or restaurant, you begin to feel as though the boss is picking on you or a coworker is being mean and vicious with you. The first thing to do is try to stay from the people who are the bullies. Or you can double-check and identify if this is really the case or if this is simply perceived.

They probably want some attention, and negative attention. They may feel insecure and need to take people down and so you become an unfortunate semi-random target needing taking down. If you are stuck with those individuals due to work constraints or to the particular context, then take a proactive and constructive attitude, this is a way in which to assert yourself in life.

It can be a testing ground for developing those skills. You will encounter and experience difficult people in this culture. It is important to be able to deal with them and neutralize the situation in a proactive way to defuse the tension and continue on with your day, be of service to others who may encounter that person later in their day, and have that person feel respected while you defuse the situation as much as is reasonable in the context.

This can be for digital or physical bullying. Physical bullying may be the pushing and shoving of you at work, or in public, or other areas of life. It becomes more direct. It becomes more physical in other words.

However, you can report these people to the proper authorities in the school, in public life, or gain support from those around you at the moment to be able to defuse the situation. It is not a good idea to escalate an already obnoxious or unpleasant person who is being physically bullying.

For the digital bullying, it amounts to the same the psychological state for a victim and victimiser here. However, the main issue comes from the asynchronous nature of it. That is to say the bully or you may leave a message at one point in time.

Then you can receive it at a far distant or an immediate time after sending of the message. That is the nature of the digital media. It is asynchronous.

It does not care about the particular time. If someone is continually bullying you, it is good to have a record of the bullying and to be able to then substantiate any claims made to the school authorities such as the vice principal or principal as well as police authorities if it is particularly inappropriate.

Otherwise, as a general rule in life, you want to surround yourself with those who support you, love you, and vice versa.

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2022-12-08

Volunteer Stories: An Interview with Justin Rawlins

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/27

As the Youth Blog Coordinator, Justin Rawlins has been an amazing part of our Check Your Head team over this past year. He was one of our 2015 Volunteers of the Year and we’re sad to say farewell to him this fall as he moves onto new projects.

In this blog post, youth blogger Scott Douglas Jacobsen chats with Justin about his involvement with Check Your Head.

How did you find us at Check Your Head (CYH)?

A friend sent me the callout for CYH’s Democracy Check campaign, which focused on engaging young people in BC through digital media in the build up to the 42nd federal election. People can check out the Democracy Check archive to see some of the interesting and creative work that emerged from that campaign.

After the election, CYH was looking for a blog coordinator. I had such a positive experience with CYH during Democracy Check, so I volunteered for the position. And that was a year ago.

What tasks and responsibilities come along with your position at CYH?

The blog coordinator is responsible for recruiting volunteer bloggers and then coordinating and editing submissions. Most submissions go through multiple rounds of revisions, not because they are poor or deficient in some way, but in order to encourage writers to grapple with their ideas a bit longer.

What is the content and purpose of the written work through CYH — by others and yourself?

There are multiple purposes, but the one that I want to highlight is CYH’s blog as a platform for young people across BC to showcase some of their thoughts on the most pressing issues of our time. I was pleased with the quality and thoughtfulness of the submissions that I received on topics ranging from technological change to migrant justice to poverty to gentrification and beyond.

Did your education assist in writing your own work and editing others’ work for the blog?

I was a teaching assistant during my graduate studies, which prepared me for email exchanges and written feedback. I also learned a lot from Tahia and Aleks (former CYH staff members) during the orientation for Democracy Check, especially on how to interact with volunteers, because both of them are excellent facilitators and educators.

Also, university exposed me to a lot of different thinkers whose work I find useful for making sense of the world. I was able to pass some of that along to the volunteer bloggers, such as directing people to Edward Said’s work on Orientalism and imperialism or Ananya Roy’s work on poverty.

What is your post-secondary education in?

I completed a BA at SFU in political science and an MA in sociology. My MA thesis looked at the interconnectedness of urban and rural issues in Ankara, Turkey, with a focus on wheat cultivation and mass housing. More recently, I’m completing pre-requisite science courses, with the aim of gaining admittance to a physical therapy program.

What are some impacts you have seen in BC from the work of CYH — at all levels?

So much of formal education, especially at the high school level, is sanitized and avoids uncomfortable topics or presents them in a neutral way that justifies or entrenches existing power dynamics. CYH does a good job of unsettling taken-for-granted assumptions and a good example of that is their recent Inclusion and Anti-Racism project.

Also, CYH works with other organizations engaged in important struggles, such as the BC Health Coalition. I mention the BC Health Coalition because they have been a key player in confronting Dr. Brian Day’s legal push for increased private health care, a push that would fundamentally undermine public health care in Canada. And CYH has an informative health care workshop that unpacks some of the issues surrounding health care in general and privatized health care in particular.

Where do you hope CYH goes into the future?

This isn’t specific to CYH, but I would like to see the rules surrounding the political activities of charities in Canada revised, so that charities involved in advocacy work no longer need to fear costly CRA audits. The current restrictions are nebulous and stifle dissent.

I hope CYH continues to reach young people whose curiosities about the world are not necessarily being met through formal education. Young people are not apathetic–contrary to popular belief–but many do appear to possess a healthy suspicion about the old ways of doing things. CYH’s workshops and projects encourage young people to pursue their curiosities and imagine new ways of doing things. To paraphrase Paulo Freire: education changes people and people change the world. CYH will continue to educate and activate young people on social issues.

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2022-12-08

British Columbia’s Responsibilities to Climate Change Action

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/27

The Anthropocene, or the Capitalocene, is upon us, like a lumbering giant destroying Downtown Vancouver in its wake, especially for the collective global future to come very soon. British Columbia needs rapid action on transition to renewable energy source. Climate change is a global issue. By implication, it has national and provincial impacts, which means that British Columbia at large is impacted, too. British Columbians by being Canadians have responsibilities to the international community because Canada has responsibilities to the international community. Outside of the international responsibilities, there are individual choices as well. Lifestyle and policy voting are important. All factors and motions for sustainability matter.

We need to work to end carbon emissions as much as possible, as fast as possible, with transitions to renewable energies. We need to get away from fossil fuel sources in Canada, and British Columbia by implication. Individuals can vote for a carbon tax that can mean a national policy can reflect this. Governments function on the ‘will’ of the people. That means the consistent voting and activism. That’s how all change ever happens: through individuals getting together for collective efforts. There has been progress, but more needs to be done by us. One possible major solution is a provincial call for a price on carbon emissions, which can come in many forms.

There can be investments for massive public transportation that can reduce the amount of net carbon emissions by citizens within the province in addition to providing the needed infrastructure for the 21st-century. We can invest in a ‘Green Culture’ and a low-carbon infrastructure. There should be efficient vehicles with regulated standards. It can be expanded to other products consumers are buying.

Residents within British Columbia can travel in more efficient ways by using cars less. There are many options: taking more walks, riding a bike, taking the train, riding the bus, and so on. This may create problems for some high travel people. However, for others, and in fact probably most, it can be done. Through responsible, considerate, and conscientious decisions about transportation, we can reduce the net carbon emissions of all residents within the province.

Human activity is the main problem. The climate began to warm rapidly at the beginning of the Industrial Revolution. High hydrocarbon producing fuel sources are a problem. Energy sectors depend on them for sustained economic growth and activity. I say this in sympathy for the difficulties to make such transition, for the employees, the managers, the businesses, and the communities built largely around them. However, with the Anthropocene/Capitalocene epoch present before us, and with massive species extinctions happening, we do not have another choice about avoiding the outcomes of this problem.

We do have choices about the means through which to do it. We are lucky. There are many, many options on the table. Canadian industry creates 35% of Canada’s net greenhouse gases, which is quite a lot. Furthermore, small numbers of industries create most emissions. Things like oil and gas extractors are some of the largest contributors, which comes to about 38% of that 35% of industry.

The simplest solution to become involved: get educated. Education at the individual level with provincial assistance is one way to keep things moving forward. It will take all of us together, but depends on individual effort for oneself and in inspiring others. This can be done at the individual level by going to your local library or bookstore to find and read books that have relevant and reliable information about climate change and sustainability. Business people can incorporate the readings and knowledge into the business practices of whatever business you have. So this can be both short- and long-term with respect to implementation. There can also be intervention in the economy through tax.

A carbon tax is the typical term for it: pricing carbon emissions to incentivize governments, and provincial and local, to transition into the future energy sector. This can facilitate the incentives of movement towards a renewable economy and infrastructure across the province. These are some possible solutions. What will happen if we do not implement any possible solutions? There will be many negative effects, such as a negative effect on water sources. A world, or a province for that matter, scarce in fresh water can create tensions among communities and adversely affect health.

This is because water connects to both the food and the health of communities and individuals. It is the lifeblood of an ecosystem. For example, water quality, air quality, food quality, and so on, impact lung health, gut health, and so on. For those with children, this can affect their health as well. For those with community-oriented minds, this means one’s own health, as well as one’s neighbours, children, and grandchildren. In a broader sense of family, this affects the family of British Columbia. In that light, it both can’t and shouldn’t be ignored.

The individual and provincial responsibilities form an interconnected system of responsibilities from individual self-education and provincial educational programs and everything in between. To flatter ourselves, this includes youth-oriented organizations such as Check Your Head through writing about topics of importance to current, upcoming, and soon-to-exist generations. Education is an act, but it is not activism. Education with an impact can be the catalyst. That’s where things begin. Individuals are inspired to act, make further impacts, and make the necessary changes.

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2022-12-08

An Interview with a Welfare Food Challenge Participant, Lindsay Bissett

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/27

My name is Lindsay Bissett and I advocated, for the second time, in the Welfare Food Challenge. During the day I am a recruiter for an incredible company, Vancity, where I am fortunate to meet many amazing people. During my extracurricular time I am Vice Chair of Vancity’s Diversity and Inclusion Alliance, Board Member of a Surrey Not For Profit, Baobab Inclusive Empowerment Society, and a dog loving, suburb loving, avid Netflix watcher. I thought I was pretty in touch with social issues but experiencing this challenge has been incredibly eye opening…and eye watering. I will not stop advocating until the rates are raised, the current state is absolutely unacceptable. This quote sums it up for me, “I give because I know how it feels to want.” –Unknown.

How did you get involved in the Welfare Food Challenge?

I became involved in the challenge last year with some VanCity colleagues of mine. A dear friend of mine is a friend of Bif Naked, who has been advocating with the Welfare Food Challenge for several years. We were all inspired to give it a try.

We have a Diversity and Inclusion Alliance at VanCity and one of our focus areas is poverty reduction. We thought this Challenge aligned strongly; it opened our eyes to the realities of living in poverty.

What have you heard from others that have been a part of it?

A lot of similar experiences. It is, in general, terrible. The first year of the challenge, I was so organized. I prepped all of my meals. I shopped at two different stores. I really thought that I was prepared.

An advocate from Raise the Rates who currently lives on welfare and lives in an SRO said, “We have to choose between being healthy and being hungry.” When I talk to other folks, no matter the level of preparation, you have to make the choice.

Often, it feels better to have a full belly. This unacceptable “choice” has stayed with me throughout the challenge and my advocacy beyond it.

You are eating processed, cheap, and sometimes expired foods. This quickly leads to physical and mental deterioration. The fifth day, last year, was when I broke. My mental health suffered greatly. I cried eating Chef Boyardee from the Dollar Store, which is embarrassing to admit. The canned pasta disintegrated when cooked and was basically inedible. On the fifth day I was not only hungry and unhealthy but I was absolutely isolated and mentally broken.

In summary, many people have the same experiences. After a few days, your motivation and mood suffer. This is how some people live every day…for years.

What was your own experience in being able to or trying to function in taking part in this, being hungry all of the time?

It is brutal. It is hard because I entered the challenge wanting to advocate at the same time. This year, I quit early, the food portion. It is hard being hungry, even if you achieve a full stomach you are not satisfied. You do not have the right amount of nutrition.

It is hard to state intellectual and powerful things. You are not healthy at the time. For me, I am hard to be around. I am cranky, which is unusual for me. It is hard to be taken seriously. It is hard to have conversations while in a constant bad mood.

What were some of the precautions others and you took before taking part in this?

There’s a great support group, in and out of Vancity through Raise the Rates. It is a great organization. Many of us converse on Twitter and share through blogs. In terms of precautions, we support one another.

We make sure nobody feels bad and know they can stop the challenge. If you recognize the privilege, then that’s okay. We want to raise the rates. We want the government to realize the importance of this.

For example, for people with mental illnesses it is incredibly hard. Even with a balanced diet, if they are battling a chemical imbalance in their brain it only makes things harder. We kept a close eye on ourselves as friends and partners in the challenge. There is enough stigma surrounding both mental illness and poverty, we had to assure no bias if someone had to step out of the food portion of the challenge early.

You have to be ready to not beat it, to suffer. It is going to be awful. You cannot plan yourself into success with such a small amount of money.

What are some ways fellow citizens can give back through things such as food programs for nutritious meals to eat everyday?

That’s a really great question. I will give you a personal answer and I appreciate that many people may have a different opinion. For me, I struggle to support food banks. It is an immediate need now, I get it. However, it makes me sad and it isn’t a sustainable solution.

A program meant to run for one year has run for 20 years. The more we normalize food banks, the more we are saying it is okay that people on welfare have only $18 a week for food. We’re normalizing it. We’re telling the government that what they are doing is enough.

The government states this is enough. It is not. Food banks are doing work we need right now but I look forward to the day they are no longer needed in BC. I consider hot lunch programs in schools as something very important. There are many kids in school who are hungry, there is a lack of equality from the get-go. They need to be set up for success with proper food as a basic need and ingredient for success.

If someone asked me about becoming involved, I would tell them to become educated, send letters to people in government that matter, have brave conversations with friends, family and coworkers to create more advocates. An election is coming. Our government needs to know that current state is unacceptable.

That will make change. Advocacy is the way to do it.

This is an annual event. How can people become involved?

I sound like a broken record but people can get involved by advocating for change. I hope there is no event next year. I hope they raise the rates so we don’t have to do this again and people don’t have to live like this. Whenever people ask me, “What should I do to get prepared?” I give an unfortunate answer. You can’t win.

I say, “Be prepared to be hungry and angry.” I am usually an upbeat and positive person but there is no way to win. There is no success. You are going to be miserable. It incredibly eye opening to try for one week to live on welfare rates when some people of all ages are living like that without a choice. In this affluent province people in poverty are being kept there.

I hope that we do not do this again because we need to raise the rates. It sounds simple but as you can see through research it has been years since the welfare rates have been increased. To be prepared if there is a Welfare Food Challenge next year, you should find the closest Dollar Store and get ready to feel terrible.

Thank you for your time, Lindsay.

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2022-12-08

Volunteer Stories: An Interview with Afifa Hashimi

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/27

How did you get involved in youth activism?

My interest in social justice grew in my last few years of high school, when I started paying more attention to politics and reading about injustice and oppression worldwide.

I was a part of a local Boys & Girls Club Youth Council, where I worked on an inclusion project, but I didn’t really engage in activism until I came to university.

That’s when I got involved in the Simon Fraser Public Research Interest Group (SFPIRG). It’s an awesome student-funded and directed non-profit organization at SFU, which focuses on social and environmental justice. My experience as part of the SFPIRG Street Team was really amazing. It motivated me to get involved in more initiatives.

How did you find us at Check Your Head (CYH)?

In the summer of 2015, I was searching for more social justice volunteer opportunities and I came across a page on the CYH website encouraging youth to apply to become workshop facilitators.

I was really excited to discover a local organization with values that mirror my own and I thought it would be a perfect opportunity to combine my passion for anti-oppression work and my interest in working with young people.

What tasks and responsibilities come along with your position at CYH?

As blog coordinator, I’m responsible for enlisting youth to be volunteer writers for CYH’s blog. I also offer support to the bloggers through the various stages of the writing and editing process, and I post their submissions.

What is the content and purpose of the written work through CYH — by others and yourself?

I think that the blog offers youth an opportunity to showcase their perspectives on important issues. It gives them a chance to research and write about causes they’re passion about. The content encourages critical thinking and inspires engagement with the issues discussed.

It’s a great space for youth to read the work of other young people and expand their knowledge of the various topics that the blog posts cover.

It has been a valuable experience for me, personally. I’ve learned a lot.

What is your post-secondary education in?

I’m currently in the last semester of my Honours Political Science BA with an English minor, and I plan to start law school this fall. My academic focus areas include international politics, oppression and resistance, and feminist political thought.

For my honours research project, I’m studying the effects of women’s participation in civil society on women’s rights across countries.

Did your post-secondary education assist in writing your own work and editing others’ work for the blog?

Yes, my English minor has improved my writing and editing skills. My interest areas in political science have also been relevant to my work at CYH. My education continues to add to my base of knowledge of important issues. It encourages me to analyze oppressive power structures, which helps me to think critically and creatively about anti-oppression work.

Along with my community involvement, my classes encourage me to keep up to date on political news and events related to things like social, environmental, and economic justice. This makes me better equipped to suggest timely topics and offer relevant resources to bloggers.

What are some impacts you have seen in BC from the work of CYH — at all levels?

One thing I can speak to is the impact of the youth workshops. The workshops create a space for young people to explore topics that they may not have had a chance to directly engage with in school or in other settings.

Some participants share comments on their own experiences. They make links between those experiences and broader societal forces that shape those experiences, which we address in the workshops.

For some participants, this may be the first time that they are consciously making these links. It’s great to see youth thinking critically. I felt that I could see the positive impact of the workshops when they’d say things like, “Wow, I never thought about it like that before!”

Also, the projects like CYH’s Democracy Check campaign have also had a significant impact. Although I was not involved in that campaign, I was involved in other non-partisan youth initiatives during the last federal election and I kept up with this campaign’s significant work. I think it definitely contributed to an increase in youth interest and involvement during the election.

Where do you hope CYH goes into the future?

I think the organization has a really important role to play in the education and engagement of youth. I hope CYH keeps facilitating workshops for youth and introduces new workshops to cover even more topics, maybe even expanding workshops or adapting them for even younger youth.

I’d also love to see CYH expand and take on more projects such as the current Inclusion and Anti-Racism project. One of my best friends, Rowena, is involved in that project, and from what I’ve heard it sounds awesome.

Thank you for your time, Afifa.

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2022-12-08

“Stand with Kwantlen” March in Fort Langley

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/27

Protests provide a forum for citizens from all walks of life and backgrounds to unite under a common banner for movements and causes which are important to them. This can be for their livelihoods, the environment, or their children and grandchildren. Sometimes, it can be all these things at once. There was rain and snow, but this did not prevent 150 people from marching through downtown Fort Langley to “Stand with Kwantlen” against the proposed Kinder Morgan (Trans Mountain) Pipeline Expansion.

On December 11, 2016, the Kwantlen Nation was joined by members of the surrounding community in a march of solidarity. “Stand with Kwantlen” featured speeches by Brandon Gabriel and Tumia Knott from the Kwantlen Nation, and Petrina Arnason from the Township of Langley Council. The event was a reaction to the federal government’s approval of the Kinder Morgan Pipeline expansion.

The speakers raised many points of opposition including threats to the local environment, climate change, costs to local municipalities, and, most adamantly, the right of the Kwantlen Nation for sovereignty over unceded territory. Gabriel explained that there was no consultation with First Nations when the original pipeline was built in 1953. At the time it was extremely difficult for First Nations to find legal representation. Now, things are different and across the continent First Nations are opposing these types of energy projects. “We didn’t give permission for the first pipeline that was laid, so why would we give permission for the second?” Gabriel stated. “What we are saying is ‘No, you do not have permission to do this.’”

Arnason explained, “We’re standing here together, adding our voices to the larger collective.” While Arnason was speaking on her own behalf, the Township has raised many concerns about the expansion and were active participants in the National Energy Board hearings. During the summer, Maegen Giltrow, a legal representative of the township, told the Ministerial Panel that “This [pipeline] cannot be approved.” Earlier that day, Tumia Knott, legal representative for the Kwantlen Nation, spoke at a session with the Ministerial panel expressing grave concerns about the impact of the expansion on the Kwantlen community (including impacts on the environment) and the lack of consultation.

This is second time the Kwantlen Nation has decided to march as a nation, both times inspired by the threat that Kinder Morgan poses to their community. On April 11, 2015 the Nation marched together for the first time since colonization from their reserve through Fort Langley. This act of solidarity is an increasing trend in Indigenous and community opposition to new proposed energy infrastructure that threatens the land and water. Sunday’s march had the same message. Justine Nelson, Chapter Coordinator of the PIPE UP Network and one of the main organizers for the march, explained, “This march was to show solidarity with the Kwantlen Nation and send a message to Trudeau that the community will be standing next to Kwantlen through this fight. Very simply, they will not be able to build this pipeline.”

The expansion would triple the amount of diluted bitumen travelling from Alberta to the Burnaby coast. The result would be an increase in the amount of tankers leaving our coast to 30 per month. Kinder Morgan, the Texas-based company that owns the existing pipeline and proposed expansion, was originally created under “Enron”, the company famous for the huge tax scandal in the United States. Richard Kinder and many of the other original staff of the company were transfers from Enron. Kinder had worked for Enron for 16 years, eventually becoming the president and vice operating officer.

Opponents of the expansion insist it does not make sense from an environmental or economic perspective. In fact, Kinder Morgan is not even a good corporate citizen. They do their best to pay as few taxes at possible, and have 69 (reported) spills on the existing line and a horrible record on their other lines. Across the country, people are stating they will prevent this expansion from being built in addition to other proposed tar sands pipelines. The “Treaty Alliance Against Tar Sands Expansion” has been signed by over 50 First Nations across the continent. Similarly, the Coast Protectors Pledge has been signed by over 19,000 individuals. It states: “We stand in solidarity with Indigenous lands, water and environment protectors across Turtle Island, from BC to Quebec, from Burnaby to Lelu Island, from Muskrat Falls to Standing Rock.” The “Stand with Kwantlen” rally was one of many actions uniting opposition across Canada and the United States. This was not the first, and will not be the last.

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2022-12-08

How to identify and overcome anxiety

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/27

Anxiety is a modern problem. It can be a particular issue in youth. If you are a teenager, and if you suffer from the consequences of excess anxiety not channeled well, it can make the already uncertain, at times hellish, and the finding-yourself phase of life known as being a teenager even worse.

Your thoughts race. Your blood pressure rises. Your heart rate increases. You feel the sense that the world is caving in on you due to all of the internally produced pressure. Often times, this is apart from real pressure.

It does not amount to real pressure. It’s simply a subjective perception of the world that triggers anxiety and general discombobulation, physically and mentally. It can be very disconcerting. Some people, they can suffer over the long term from a generalized form of anxiety. It’s not a fun life. It is not a healthy life.

The question becomes, “How do you deal with anxiety, especially in early life as a teenager?“ in order to be healthier and have a better youth, you need to be able to stop and take one step back. Need to hold the escalation at the moment, need to take a step back, then you can begin by respectfully removing yourself from the situation of particular anxiousness.

If you need to ask someone for the time, you can do so. If it just happens to be a triggering situation, you can simply remove yourself from it. You hold that right. Some basic techniques of dealing with the anxiety in the moment, if temporary, are to count from 10 to 1.

Another is to take it deep breathes, breathing from the belly and the diaphragm, and slowly relaxing. It is crucially important to not have the additional stress involved from anxiety in daily life. Anxiety can impair school performance.

Anxiety can impair professional performance. A generalized anxiety can harm general performance throughout life. Because it detracts emotional and therefore mental resources needed to be able to handle things that life throws at you.

Another important thing is to have a good support network, with her family or friends. If you have a good set of family members, you can confide in them to help quell some of the anxiety-producing things. It helps to talk out your problems, especially for the young guys out there where this is frowned upon — by themselves or others.

Talking it out, it is an effective methodology. If you have friends, and if you trust them sufficiently enough, you can talk to them as well. These are known as social and emotional skills. They are necessary for a higher quality of life.

We all know the feelings of anxiety, but dealing with them takes practice. Those are some ways to know how to help with the temporary and the long-term versions of it.

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2022-12-08

New Church in Celebration of Alcohol

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/26

Religion News Service reported on the new church in Orange Farm, South Africa. A clergyperson poured whiskey into a cup to anointed a man.

The congregation of the Gabola Church swig beer and dance. A rite of passage initiated for the newcomer. Less than one year old, Tsietsi Makiti, said, “We are a church for those who have been rejected by other churches because they drink alcohol.

Those drinkers get seen as sinners, who Makiti helps save. The line of argumentation amounting to the Holy Spirit through drinks. Other South Africans claim Gabola Church does not qualify.

It does not amount to a church. Archbishop Modiri Patrick Shole said, “They are using the Bible to promote taverns and drinking liquor. It is blasphemous. It is heresy and totally against the doctrines.”

Gabola Church is a non-member of the South African Council of Churches. No affiliations exist with the church. It stands alone as the whiskey-chalice and beer-congregation church.

56 million people live in South Africa. Approximately 80% of the population identify as Christian: Catholic and Protestant. Some other sects sprinkled in the mix.

30 worshippers, recently, held a service in an Orange Farm township bar. It is south of Johannesburg. That service had a pool table as an altar with, of course, whiskey and beer.

Six ministers blessed cold beer bottles. Other alcoholic beverages included brandy, whiskey, and others. Hymns got sung. All in praise of drinking and its good side.

Makiti said, “Our aim is to convert bars, taverns and shebeens into churches… And we convert the tavern-owners into pastors.” The churchgoers get encouraged to drink in a responsible, mature manner.

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2022-12-08

How to overcome adversity in life

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/26

Hard times are an inevitability of life. You will encounter difficulties. You will be broken down. Somethings will go well while other things are going wrong. Life is an admixture.

The main questions or issues to consider are how are you going to react to those difficulties when they arise. How are you going to also celebrate when the times are really good?

Life will come in waves and sometimes waves will crash together and make a very difficult situation, those are flashpoints in a personal life. This makes it crucial to understand the nature of yourself in the relationships of the world.

The best means by which to overcome the difficulties or hardships in life are through assiduous personal development. The hard work in developing resilience.

Resilience will stand you in good stead in times of difficulty. It’s a skill set, an emotional and social skill set, to allow you to persist in spite of the difficulties.

Another way is to have a good and healthy social network. That network provides a solid foundation for people to fall back on who love you and who you trust and respect.

In addition to that, you can look into professional help from counselors or psychologists or psychiatrists depending on the severity of the need at a time in life.

The benefit of the first one is that it is free and it comes with the benefit of personal development. The benefit of the second option with friends and family comes from external sources when internal resources are not enough.

The last one is helpful for severe cases, but does come at a higher cost, especially financially.

You never be able to avoid the hard parts of life. You will never have the opportunity for that one extended period of time, probably. In the country that we live in, you will have an easier time than most people. Nonetheless, you will have relative difficulties within the North American context at some point.

It is extremely important to bear in mind the basics of health too. You need to be healthy. You need to focus on proper sleep for your age.

You need to focus on quality and full sleep; that also means at a good time in a quiet place. There needs to be proper exercise with aerobics, strength training, and stretching.

Also, there needs to be proper diet. If you are physically healthy, and if you’re mentally healthy, then you can withstand the difficulties in life that come your way better.

So, here you go: personal development, friends and family, and professional help, and sleep, exercise, and diet.

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2022-12-08

Building your self-esteem in a changing world

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/26

Everyone needs a pep talk once in a while or reason to get out of the bed.

If you want to build self-esteem, you will need to work within yourself. You should try to also work in community. The better ways to build self-esteem or to behave in ways that are deserving of them and are self-respectful.

Self-esteem comes from doing things and thinking in ways, and so feeling in ways, that are most representative of your better self. Do you want to work to limit yourself, or expand yourself? Fundamental presuppositions around self-esteem are helpful. Because the development of the self comes from behaviours and thoughts.

With thoughts and behaviour as the foundation for a proper self-esteem, the basis comes from within you. It starts with taking responsibility for your own actions and thinking. It has to do with what is sometimes termed the internal locus of control.

If someone can develop in themselves a sense of control over what they can and cannot do, and if they can develop this within a framework of self-knowledge, they can begin on the process of self-discovery, and so greater self-esteem.

Proper self-esteem comes from accomplishment not simply from thinking abstract thoughts. You have to be bold in an acting things in your own life. This is especially true for you younger men out there. If you’re driving a car, and if someone else has the steering wheel, you are living a life on the coast mode of the car.

You are not driving your life. You are being driven. No one wants that but so few of us realize that. To simply have positive thoughts about yourself and to not take into account real successes and honest failures, you are, and to be blunt here, living in outer space.

You need to get down to the dirt and live your life and have a plan for it. That basis of a plan and working towards especially a long-term plan provide a basis for a better life. As you begin to accomplish that, you will naturally develop a certain self-efficacy and self-esteem.

It is an important part of keeping in touch with the real world while achieving things and so feeling a real sense of accomplishment and not simply an unwarranted sense of achievement. This is all part and parcel of proper and healthy self-esteem.

You earn things. You feel better. One really effective way to feel better and achieve things is to do it in community. It could be a little church. If you go to a mosque, synagogue, or a Sikh or Buddhist temple, it could be any of those things. It could be a soccer club.

It could be a yoga studio. All of these provide basis for community. All based on a common activity, at a minimum. When you work within that community and achieve something, whether being more flexible in a yoga position or donating time and finances to the food bank through the place of worship external community, you accomplish something for others and yourself with others.

It is really that simple to feel self-efficacy and to develop that healthy sense of contribution to the community and self-esteem about being worth something.

LicenseIn-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-12-08

Potential Changes to the South African Constitution

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/25

According to Bloomberg, South Africa’s government made a decision around a change to the constitution of the nation.

It is reported the African National Congress, or the ANC, has decided to amend the national constitution with regards to the laws of the land. The purpose is to further explain the conditions upon which land can be expropriated and then have no compensation for it.

The ANC becomes closer to the Economic Freedom Fighters (EFF) in this sense. The ANC will only do this under the condition that this does not harm the economy, agricultural sector, or the food security of the nation because these could be consequences of any amendments related to land.

As reported, “The purpose of the amendment is to promote redress, advance economic development, increase agricultural production and food security, the ANC in an emailed statement after a meeting of its National Executive Committee in Pretoria, the capital.”

Legal experts are working on the processes necessary for alterations to the constitution as we speak. The idea was and is to speed the process of giving black people more land. More access to land is one symbol of inequality between members of the nation along the racial lines.

President Cyril Ramaphosa stated, “…it has become patently clear that our people want the constitution be more explicit about expropriation of land without compensation, as demonstrated in the public hearings.”

The proposals now are bringing forth concerns for investors and others about the potential for a radical land-reform strategy and then the fear that there may be Zimbabwe-style farm seizures. The ANC will be contesting national elections starting next year with the first ballot since the time of the opposition winning several municipalities deemed “key” by the reportage. That include Johannesburg and Pretoria.

The Executive Director of the Council for the Advancement of the South African Constitution, Lawson Naidoo, stated, “This is a surprising and premature announcement by the ANC because parliament is still in its review process on changing the constitution… Parliament still has to gather and evaluate the many submissions that have been made. We are in a pre-election phase and the ANC announcement is part of that.”

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2022-12-08

David Mabuza on Women’s Rights

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/25

David Mabuza, the deputy president of South Africa, talked about women. He wrote an article in News 24.

The parliamentary questions in recent weeks have noted the concern for women. Mabuza pointed to the ANC government emphasis on the “full emancipation of women.”

Mabuza described the patriarchal structures and sexism in society. The violent deaths of women by intimate partners. He asks a question from Katrine Marçal, who is a feminist writer.

In Adam Smith’s market fundamentalist text The Wealth of Nations, he asks: Who puts dinner on the table? Smith argues the “economic man.”

Mabuza thinks “our grandmothers, wives, sisters and the girl-child.” He points to childbearing by women and work in the home. That these drive the wealth of nations, “for free.”

Mabuza talks about the Women’s Charter, too, from 1954. It states that women stretch the dollar for the children, hear the children’s cries. That women bear the burden of caring for children.

The land too, when men are gone, are women’s domain. Mabuza points to the civilised and democratic nature of a society. That it relates to the social and economic liberation of women.

“It depends on how we empower women to demand their inherent rights to take the advantages,” Mabuza explained, “responsibilities and opportunities of a civilised society.”

Mabuza considers women paying the highest price far above any of us as mothers. “Freedoms we have earned freely on their unpaid labour,” he notes.

In his opinion, we need to view women as special. That women are complete human beings ans treated and respected as such.

In the South African Constitution, it says, “Human dignity, the achievement of equality and the advancement of human rights and freedoms.”

Though “racial hatred and discrimination, sexism and patriarchy,” are present, we can develop. The Constitution, according to Mabuza, provides that basis.

Any discrimination and violence against women violates the spirit of the Constitution. Mabuza sees violence against women as a violation against the founding principles of South Africa.

He said, “A nation that undermines the aspirations of women and oppresses them can have no peace, no social cohesion and no development.”

He points to the extreme prejudice against black women based on class, gender, and race. Mabuza points to the “omnipresent [patriarchy] in our language, idioms, metaphors, stories, myths and performances.”

Mabuza argues that we have to make internal changes, to our individual selves. Those changes helping free women from sexism and oppression, and discrimination.

However those biases come packaged, individual alterations can help with women’s emancipation. That radical revolution comes with the emancipation of women through individual change.

He notes the ANC is for gender parity “as a precondition of the economic freedom in our lifetime.” He describes how men are “absconding from parental responsibility, yet are available for power, leadership and economic opportunities.”

How do we close that gap, reduce those biases unbalanced benefits? He states women have to work and make a home together. Mabuza argues for a reordering of social relations in order for equality, parity.

One “that castrates the power, income and class of men from having an overriding influence on women’s choice of sexual partners.”

Mabuza considers this the foundation of a society with mutual respect and equality.

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2022-12-08

West Coast Christian Accord

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/10/20

The West Coast Christian Accord got founded, recently. According to the information provided by the WCCA website, the purpose is to bring together leaders and church communities under one literalist Bible-inspired ideological banner on gender identity and human sexuality.

The WCCA has a specific audience, too, as explained, “The target of the Accord is first and foremost traditional, biblical based, evangelical leaders and churches” (2018).

The meaning of “Evangelical Christian” becomes a problem for some believers now. Not according to an outside source, but to the internal leadership and community; hence, the reason for the WCCA. They’re, potentially, fragmenting.

The shifting landscape of culture created the need for the WCCA within the Evangelical Christian community, to reaffirm — among the believers — their “long-held, traditional beliefs, convictions, and lifestyles” tied to the bringing together of religious leaders firmly adherent to Evangelical Christian tenets within the nation (Ibid.).

Bearing in mind, of course, the supermajority religious slice of Canada remains Christian at 67.3% (StatsCan, 2016). Granted, “Christian” does not mean “Evangelical Christian” in full.

However, the vast historical conceptual waters of the Christian colonial power are Christian ideas, symbols, beliefs, rituals, architecture, art, authority and hierarchy, implicit sensibilities and mores, and notions of morality seeping several facets of the nation. The WCCA seems as if a story of the oppressed most, the beleaguered majority, the downtrodden almost all.

To be an Evangelical Christian in Canada, in general, and with only a modicum of historical knowledge or updated statistical information of the demographics, the waters seem like smooth sailing compared to other subpopulations.

The main advertised figures of the WCCA include the following: Kevin Cavanaugh who is the Lead Pastor at Cedar Grove Baptist Church & President of the Surrey Pastors Network, Dave Carson who is the Pastor at Hope Vancouver & the Secretary of the Association of Christian Ministries Vancouver, and Giulio Gabeli who is the President at the Association of Christian Ministries Vancouver & the Senior Pastor at the Westwood Community Church.

For individual Evangelical Christians who disagree with the document and its contents, these are the religious leaders who affirmed the full WCCA value set through becoming signatories of the WCCA.

That is to imply, other churches exist with other leaders with different values more applicable to personal tastes and preferences for you. Those values and preferences in contradistinction to the interpretations of the Bible of the signatories.

To those within the nonbelieving community with an interest in its contents, the values and preferences of the WCCA, when read, seem to show the general assumptions about this sector of the Evangelical Christian community, which remains observable here. No sincere surprises there.

The WCCA appears to reflect a reaction to two things, as identified by them in fact. One comes from the loss of dominance in the local culture, as other cultures request and acquire representation, as per the statement about the change in “long-held, traditional beliefs, convictions, and lifestyles” (West Coast Christian Accord, 2018).

Two emerges from the reaction or cultural opposition to SOGI 1 2 3, related but sufficiently distinct from the first concern. Perhaps, the “two” can be considered a derivative or subset of “one.”

A CBN News clip exists here on the webpage. If you watch it, the first opposition, against SOGI 1 2 3, comes from Laura-Lynn Tyler Thompson, who is a motivational speaker. She, in a moderately concerned and exasperated tone, asks, “Who decided that this was okay to teach our children?” (Ibid.).

Another woman named Kari Simpson, Executive Director of Culture Guard, opined, “All those beautiful qualities that make young girls beautiful girls and women are being, basically, vilified. The things that make our boys, boys, are being, you know, taken from them. So, things of equating young men to being strong protectors is something that is now evil” (Ibid.). Simpson argues the curriculum is child abuse.

Morgane Oger, who supports SOGI 1 2 3, stated, “The idea is to teach kids that there are gay kids. There are trans kids. There are trans parents and gay parents, in our society, and everyone is wanted and desired. It is the role of the schools to teach the following of our laws, right?” (Ibid.).

Simpson disagreed. That is, it is a “hedonistic cult” being implied, where there are no boundaries and then shifting the culture from the heteronormative (Ibid.). Oger affirmed human rights.

Oger explained, “Well, actually, in Canada, parents’ rights are limited. And children’s rights are put ahead. So, the child has a right to be protected from the parents, when the parents behave badly.”

Pastor Cavanaugh (mentioned earlier) opined, “This is very scary stuff… Our problem is not the teachers, the educators, the administrators. This is a battle in the heavenlies.”

He thinks Satan or the Devil is attacking the children. Religion becomes spiritual in theory within the view of Cavanaugh, but the actual implications in the real world are political and educational. This form of religion: spiritual to the inside; political to the outside.

Near the end of the clip, and indicative of the WCCA and other moves in Canada from Evangelical Christians — some — and other sects of Christianity, Thompson firmly stated, “And the church is beginning to prepare for what it takes to fight for our kids.”

Keeping the biased tone of faux terror of the reportage, the issue was wrapped up with the frame of a battle between “an aggressive homosexual agenda and the faith community…” (Ibid.).

The WCCA seems to exist within this orientation as well: a purported “scary” battle of the “heavenlies” with the good, represented by God and some of the righteous Evangelical Christian “faith community” firmly adhering to the “traditional, biblical based” worldview, versus evil, represented by Satan working to war against the kids with the “aggressive homosexual agenda,” SOGI 1 2 3, a “hedonistic cult,” and a changing Canadian culture.

—

References

StatsCan. (2016, February 19). Two-thirds of the population declare Christian as their religion. Retrieved from https://www150.statcan.gc.ca/n1/pub/91-003-x/2014001/section03/33-eng.htm.

West Coast Christian Accord. (2018). West Coast Christian Accord. Retrieved from https://westcoastchristianaccord.com/.

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2022-12-08

Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11)

Publisher Founding: December 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: A

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: None.

Individual Publication Date: December 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Tor Arne Jørgensen

Word Count: 4,005

Image Credit: Tor Arne Jørgensen

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

Abstract

Keywords: AGI, AI, humanity, intelligence, machine learning, learning systems, life, the future, Technological Singularity, Tor Arne Jørgensen.

Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11)

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Given the machine learning apparatuses before us, and an increase in comprehension of different biological systems within human beings, how might biological systems inform machine learning systems?

Tor Arne Jorgensen: When it comes to learning through type-designed programming, in terms of artificial intelligence, it means putting in special directives that they the machines must follow as pre-programmed. We humans are constantly learning, in the sense that we create new layers with our mapping models, that in turn can be further built upon. We humans acquire steadily and constantly new knowledge by which we then put into practice by testing this new knowledge which we have then mapped, this is the very basis for intelligence. Today’s machines and their artificial intelligence does not acquire new knowledge, as new knowledge must be programmed in by us humans as to achieve improved functionality of these machines. This does not happen automatically, as with us humans.

When it comes to AGI, new knowledge must also be programmed in from the start, this implementation of this new knowledge must then be formed on the same basis as for our own intelligence, through this mapping which takes place in the neocortex, where layers upon layers of new and improved knowledge are built, which in turn can be implemented through new and improved cognitive functions.

AGI can only become self-regulating in the sense of being considered as equally cognitively evolving when our understanding of how our own brain works is completed in full. That means, where all the pieces can be put together into a clear and understandable format, then and only then can our biological imprint be completed in transferred understanding of machine intelligence on par with our own understanding as to the terminology surrounding intelligence. Summarized as follows; today most of the biological input is given through pure programming, man feeds the machine with updated commands, this done in order to achieve the desired improved function of the machines.

This will not change drastically until our own understanding of how our own brain works, with reference to the neocortex and its intelligence parameters i.e., a complete understanding of all the neocortex components. First then, can this be transferable in any or all sense over to the machines. And then the machines can finally implement some kind of formatives through, self-regulatory actions by its pre-understood state of evolving mantras.

Jacobsen: To purport an obsolescence to human beings posits an intrinsic function or purpose, a teleology, to human beings in the universe, why is this a natural reaction to an emergence of digital algorithms in the era of computers and an easy analogy with human cognitive processing? Those with a teleological philosophy and a non-teleological philosophy make the same claims in this sense. In that, “Human beings will become obsolete or outmoded.” We know children tend towards animistic and teleological explanations of the world. Does this tendency seem more innate? Although, as people mature, they tend to show an increased jettisoning of these assumptions, not in all or most cases, but an increasing statistical trend, certainly. One can observe these tendencies in proposals of a Technological Singularity or a technology particularity; a point at which machines match human intelligence.

Jorgensen: This is probably where I must question myself to a certain extent, whether these claims could have the same fundamental foundation today as the time before, with reference to the introductive angle of question formulations. The fact that we humans are biological bases, and thus are forever reinvest and initiatives for improved cognitive enrichment. Made real, with our acute ability to acquire new knowledge and to apply this new knowledge onto the old knowledge as to create an even greater spectrum of knowledge.

We do not need to be programmed by an external entity for this acquisition, it is created by itself all the time, we are biological beings who are constantly developing our basis for new cognitive updating of our surroundings through these frames of reference that are talked about in Jeff Hawkins price acclaimed book, A Thousand Brains, where this is pointed out in reference to the brain’s neocortex and its implementation intelligence. The fact that the acquisition of new knowledge is used and creates the basis for new knowledge, the very foundations for intelligence in every sense.

The fact that we humans will be outdated according to AGI, will probably not happen, then, yes, it must be said that at some point AGI will be able to match us intellectually, and certainly outperform us in several aspects. However, it should also be mentioned that this will not happen until AGI is an exemplary copy of our own complete understanding of our brain, where all parts of the brains fragmented knowledge can be put together into a total overall understanding of how the brain works.

When we will come to this conclusion and we will in due time of that I am confident, then who can say what kind of knowledge we will then behold, as new fields with new hitherto not understood quantifiable qualities, that again can further be expand upon as to our own intelligence quantum, far beyond what we today are able to understand. Furthermore, that AGI can only be equated with the human intelligence when this total understanding of how the brain works is completed, it will then finally be in a state of transferable forma over to the AGI unit, and thus enables it to form its own definable evolving statutes of new self-acquired acquisitions of new cognitive knowledge onto which it can again be furthered built upon.

As long as the machines build all their base knowledge onto what we humans have been evolved upon, we will not be seen as an endangered race, but rather as a race to be recon with and of great importance as to study more, and maybe to form an alliance with based on mutual acceptance, in the quest for a greater understanding of how the universe works.

Jacobsen: If the fears are shown true, as in a Terminator future or something akin to Blade Runner, then, in some sense, human beings become either extinct or non-dominant as the prime information processing entities on the surface of the Earth. If the fears are shown false, then co-existence seems more likely with evolved intelligences – human beings and other mammals – and constructed intelligences – machines or electronically ‘floating’ intelligences in the ‘cloud’ – functioning independently and interdependently as necessary. Perhaps, some synthesis of these two visions may be the real future. What seem like the more probable outcomes for the advance of technology, at present, and humanity?

Jorgensen: Portraying one scenario for the other will present many challenges, as neither-nor as to a desired outcome. What is meant by this, if one attempts to look at the first scenario, whereas we humans are exterminated in favor for the machines, in the case of the movie Terminator, whereby the machines and their desire to rid the world of humans, and to add, animals, yes, by all biological material. Would not the next move then be to end the very biological diversity that defines all life, by definition of our own planet. Or it could just be that humans pose a threat which is then isolated to the advantage of the machines, but as the Terminator films portray, all land life is extinct, perhaps just a calculated miss, or well-planned calculation to enlarge the worldview of humans’ and their role on earth, would by that, not again mean that all life on earth stands and falls on the very existence of humanity. “Without us, there is nothing.”

What then will the role of the machines consist of then, when this extinction is completed, will the machines then create a better and more shaped world with a greater diversity? What purpose would this have for the machines, they are the ruling ones, then the way forward will not be in the intention that the machines are implemented with the intention and meaning of something more in the long run.

Alas, the result would be to terraform our planet, purposely to adapt their (machines’) need to then ensure their own existence, may not just be limited to our own planet, but also beyond, a race of planet eaters. It can also be asked whether the machines will use the material that we humans have used as a basis for our own evolutionary development … What is certain, is that all concluded security protocols will be broken, and the principle of equality where established mutual foundations between humans and machines will cease to exist, broken by and for one party’s desire for world dominance. The machines will then, in principle, sadly still carry on our stamp as to the lust for power, an intimate desire, consolidated in the art of waging war, something so human.

I would like for you to consider these three factors that may or may not pose a global extinction of humanity, will by that refer to what the acclaimed neuroscientist and author Jeff Hawkins and his resent book from 2021, A Thousand Brains has listed below as follows, quote:

“But as we go forward and debate the risks verses the rewards of machine intelligence, I recommend acknowledging the distinction between three things: replication, motivations, and intelligence.” (Hawkins, p.169).

Replication: Anything that is capable of self—replication is dangerous. Humanity could be wiped out by a biological virus. A computer virus could bring down the internet. Intelligence machines will not have the ability or desire to self-replicate unless humans go to great lengths to make it so.
Motivations: Biological motivations and drives are a consequence of evolution. Evolution discovered that animals with certain drives replicated better than other animals. A machine that is not replicating or evolving will not suddenly develop a desire to, say, dominate or enslave others.
Intelligence: Of the three, intelligence is the most benign. An intelligent machine will not on its own start to self-replicate, nor will it spontaneously develop drives and motivations. We will have to go out of our way to design in the motivations we want intelligent machines to have. But unless intelligent machines are self-replicating and evolving, they will not, on their own, represent an existential risk to humanity.

(Hawkins, p.169-170).

Presented in the previous section, appear as solid statements, where many of the worried factors can be mitigated. Will thus rather focus on the following scenario.

Considering that we will be able to live side by side with machines in the future, where the idea is to create a mutual understanding of mutual respect, people, and AGI, then this will be able to function as intended.

Thought-provoking:

The bible says that man is created in the image of God; meaning that all humans have an elevated status at birth. But then man wants to create machines that will then be viewed as the equivalent of man, will this not then fall on its own unreasonableness by that very notion. Will not machines then fall under our exalted state? I am at a crossroad by the very question, as where to stand on equality between humans and machines.

Machines today do as we command them to do, it applies to all of machine operated devices, the emotion intelligent machines of the future with the possibility of their own opinions about what they want to create, do or else, will machines based on the conundrum of equality of rights, then not go against their own core values - like the slaves before during the infamous triangular trade of the early 15^th through to the late18^th century, or the slave trade in the southern states of the United States until the turn of the 19^th century, and the ongoing sex trade.

What I see clearly is that, yes, in the not too far future we will see a paradigm shift, we will create technological innovations that will move from thoughtless instrumental creations in the demand for production efficiency. But, when it comes to building a sustainable foundation based on the notion of equality of rights between both humans and machines, given, that yes, this is for now just a fantasy-philosophical angling, but still, one must then step aside to the right of way of the other’s right to self-respect, by and for all, justice through reciprocity.

Also noted, as when, should morality have its rights instrumentally implemented? Without a doubt, this will be some of the biggest obstacles that we humans must addressed in the future that may not just be a fantasy, but very possible a new reality. The ability of machines to harm people is in the state of fiction, received its ratification whereby it is said.

Isaac Asimov, the science-fiction writer, famously proposed three laws of robotics. These laws are like a safety protocol:

A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
A robot must obey orders given it by human being except where such orders would conflict with the First law.
A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First of Second Law. (Hawkins, p.152).

I know that much of what is written here come out as fictional nonces for many of you, but perhaps we will see this coming to the realm of reality. Now, if so were to happen, would this not also result in an equal legislation for us humans towards machines. So, we humans cannot harm any AGI, or as I see it enslave the AGI in any way as stated above. Let’s certainly hope so, respect on an equal footing, even if we are born in the image of Christ, and the machines is born in the image of man.

Jacobsen: Will the idea of genius become obsolete with advances in machine intelligence?

Jorgensen: The path towards creating machine intelligence. Well as l see it, it will be based on whether we ourselves will be able to form a total and uniformed understanding of our own intelligence. The term “genius” will remain, and as for me at least, regards to the creative level. The definable with intelligence is the ability to acquire new knowledge, i.e., with reference to the general basis that I am debating here.

Man’s ability to acquire, as well as adapt to, this newly acquired knowledge for one’s own good, which in turn can be built upon. The brains neocortex is about 76% of its total volume. This is where intelligence resides. Neuroscientist who studies the part related to human intelligence, have not to date, come to a complete understanding of that particular function, a lot of work still remains. It is pointed out in the book by the renowned neuroscientist and author; Jeff Hawkins in his lates book – A Thousand Brains, where it is pointed out that:

There are decades left, maybe more for a total understanding can be summarized, lots of puzzle board pieces are now understood, but putting these puzzle bits together into a complete comprehension, is still a long way off, but it will come into light someday… (Hawkins Jeff, A thousand brains).

If one will get this access to a full understanding of how the human

neocortex works with its connection to intelligence, then we can in a sense create a real AGI, where the general tendency can be built into the machines, i.e., self-learning machines, what is then called a “reference framework”, on which new knowledge can be built upon. This is then the new intelligence that will most likely dominate, maybe in our own century which Jeff Hawkins refers to and to which I agree. That differs from the learned specified knowledge that we today program into according to today’s AI.

When this happens, one can begin to consider whether the term “genius” will be diluted or not. I still do not think so, as the term is aimed at man’s ability to create, not a machine’s ability to produce fantastic works. We are unique in ourselves; we are the starting point for our inherent ability to create. Look at the value in what your own child creates in arts and crafts at school, point in case, of what my own children bring with them home after school, is by that, the most wonderful items we receive, not because it is incredibly well made, but because our children made it themselves. The same cannot be said about what a machine produces, and by that of any man-made work, we humans will prefer the later over any machine-made work, always, ask yourself, do you prefer machine-made artwork, or man-made artwork …? The term “genius” will forever remain.

Jacobsen: How will A.I. live in the future? How will human beings live in the future with A.I. making life more efficient, easier, in some regards, as now?

Jorgensen: Artificial intelligence will be able to help us humans in a variety of situations, for example, heightened customized performance within the medical field, super efficiency, specialized interventions, super adaptive parameters within economics, finance, and international trade whereby the implementer operation of interactive payment services, new and innovative initiatives for finance-based assets, and more seamless solutions for all border custom services etc. There will certainly be a lot of more of great solutions that one cannot imagine today. AI will probably continue as it is now currently doing within various factories around the world, only more specialized, and more effective.

That being said, the biggest changes will only happen when AGI becomes as functioning and as intelligent as us humans. The artificial general intelligence must first be equated with our own, it must function according to our own intelligence model setup, reference being made to the brains neocortex and how its parameters is laid out, only then will the great changes come into fruition. AGI will surpass anything that AI will ever be able to achieve. That said, I have previously mentioned that we humans have a specific setup of various emotions, the older part of the brain is responsible for this as the neocortex is viewed as the new part of the brain. But now we talk about some our primary functions aka the “old brain” and the senses thereof, human emotions like; sadness, pain, laughter, etc., AGI will function primarily by the modeling of the human counterpart the neocortex where the foundation for human intelligence lays.

So, AGI or Artificial General Intelligence will not be equipped with the same spectrum of emotions as us humans, this will perhaps be a matter for debate whether or not this will ever be implemented as a primary function or some form of subfunction for AGI sometime in the future, but again what would be the point? When one then talks about the spectrum of emotions that we humans have in all of us men, it must be pointed out that the older part of the brain that deals with these primary functions will be able to communicate with the newer neocortex, in the state of being able to create a holistic happening of what is expected of one. For example, if you are hungry, then the old part of the brain will register this, it perceives that the body needs food now, but it does not know how to do this, it needs the information from the neocortex that can then tell where this food is for us to then retrieve what is about to be consumed.

This is a huge simplification of the communication between the old brain and the neocortex, but the fact that the older part of the brain talks to the neocortex in order to make it easier to do the job we are supposed to perform. If you look at it this way, the the neocortex is our map, which gives us the exact position of where something is, as to what we want, i.e., the equivalent to longitude and latitude on a map. The old brain enables us physically to get to where the neocortex wants us to go to get what we need or want.

We humans have a need to see meaning through purpose in our daily life in one form or another, our everyday lives consist of lots of emotionally charged interactive moments that in return give us fulfillment as we go about our daily lives. This gives us purpose, it gives us a general meaning to carry on, but also presents us with our mortality too, which means, we all have a need to get the most out of our lives the time we have on this wonderful blue ball we call home. You can implement purpose into a machina as well, but the communication between the old brain and the neocortex must, the older part can produce the correct stimuli of emotions, but the neocortex must coordinate as to where it will happen or take place as to space and time.

Motion of thought: I proclaim, there is no merits of judicial justification for the primary implementation standard of AGI as I see it, regards to the integration of these emotion’ parameters. AGI will only ever just exist as an entity void of any sense of emotional awareness. Where then if I may, will, or should I say must the bridging between us humans and the machines take place if at all…?

As we humans tend to flee away from fellow human beings that seems emotionally dead, by that notion, this remark applies to the interactions between humans and machines, will not they too follow the same mode? Furthermore, will machines then also see this as a possible intersocial hindering that should be addressed, what then about the parent innovators behind these machines, will that have any furthering basis for their existential justification of these inventions regards to both the realm of the metaphysical, and philosophical perspective…?

When we talk about the future of machines, we cannot go about this and not mention the father of computers, Alan Turing, as we all known for the movie; “The imitation game”, whereby Alan Turing created a computer to solve the enigma machine that Nazis during WWII had going to cover what they were doing, where the next assault was going to be. The notion of Alan Turing and his proposal as to the imitation game; “States that if a person can`t tell if they are conversing with a computer or a human, then the computer should be considered intelligent” (Hawkins, p.159).

Will also consider the concept of eternal life. As a prolonged extension of our lives today is on the agenda, based on what the future existence and the need to move from our own planetary system over to other possible habitable planetary systems. The travel between these planetary systems will take long time, very possibly 150-250 years or more; will we humans not get tired of living, not including the time of hibernation or prolonged sleep due to long space travels? I have a friend who works with older people in nursing homes, many, not all of them, say to him when their time is at an end that; they feel ready to let go, they are tired, bored, or,

“I have lived long enough and now it`s time for me to rest”, these people died at ages vary from 80 to 95 years old, what would these people think about having to live for 200+ years? Does one run the risk of being “fed up” with life or not, as it is written in the song lyrics by the famous music band Queen; “Who wants to live forever.” Will the general opposition towards living extended long lives, as to be able to restart one’s existence on other planets be enough for an all-right global approval by being presented this opportunity, or will the opposition to extended life be too much to ask for or to be expected, what do you the reader think? I know what I think…

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11). December 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, December 8). Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (December 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11) [Internet]. 2022 Dec; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-12-08

Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10)

Publisher Founding: December 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: A

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: None.

Individual Publication Date: December 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Tor Arne Jørgensen

Word Count: 2,163

Image Credit: Tor Arne Jørgensen

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

Abstract

Keywords: directives, Directorate of Education, First World War, learning paths, mandate curriculum, mental barrier, Norway, Norwegian schools, open tasks, Tor Arne Jørgensen.

Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10)

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I want to take this session to focus on curriculum development. As it’s something important for structured dissemination of required knowledge and skills to pupils, the creation of curricula suitable to students at different grades is important. What is the game plan or the overview of making a curriculum for young students?

Tor Arne Jorgensen: Giving a detailed overview of the full curriculum, or annual plans in this context, would be too extensive to undertake. But what can be said is that the curriculum follows the knowledge pledge of 2020 (Kunnskapsløftet 2020), for the school year 2022-23. Statutorily promoted by the Directorate of Education, that all the country’s schools must be regarded or understood as such, so by implementing these set of values presented from the education directorate’s which state the following about the academic structure, outlined below in points 1 to 4:

The subjects’ relevance and central values
Core elements
Interdisciplinary themes
Basic skills

(https://www.udir.no/lk20/idr01-02)

These four above directives must be included into each subject that the schools in turn must use as integrated subject guideline.

This of course is also divided into each tangled voluminous pompous phase, vividly inventive, so that we the puppets can manage to swallow the guiding’s delivered by these deranged misdemeanors of our puppeteers.

Apologize for my latter sarcastic outburst, but one must do what he thinks best…

Jacobsen: Mandated by the State, what content must be in there?

Jorgensen: The Directorate of Education has several divisions, with subsequent regulations that must be passed by the individual municipality that acts as the school’s owner.

The curriculum body of the Directorate of Education consists of an overall part, the distribution of subjects and hours and curricula in subjects. These are regulations for the Education Act and must govern the content of the education. The mandate curriculum subdivided below:

Parent part
Distribution of subjects and hours
Educational program

(https://www.udir.no/laring-og-trivsel/lareplanverket/).

Jacobsen: No mandated by the State, what content can be added, finessed, or interpolated, for independence of the teacher’s educational influence?

Jorgensen: The design of these distribution models, which the Directorate of Education distributes to the schools, is drawn up according to fixed models, put forward by educational personnel, in collaboration with the various professional actors from the industry sector, the technology sector, and the research sector, etc. The sectors that bring the most to the table then becomes the leader in the design of the subject plan for the current school year. The various subject sectors will shape the pupils towards their subject models, which they can then benefit from when the pupils finish primary school.

What is then left for us teachers, as I said, we have rather loose frameworks within which we can work. The overall section published by the Directorate of Education, which then gives us is an extensive mandate for our work within the education course. What we as teachers can then implement is to some degree affirmed as extensive. We can purchase our own teaching material, which can be useful beyond what the schools may provide. Better learning platforms, expanding adaptations, and finally individually adapted extra material that students with extra learning potential can benefit from. Noted, that if we stretch our services beyond what the schools themselves provide, then we the teachers must then provide much of the financial support to acquire the material needed.

Jacobsen: Over the course of the school year, what is the degree of accuracy of the curriculum, either given or developed, and the information and skills disseminated to students? Is Norwegian education rigid or loose in application, in other words?

Jorgensen: At the start of the school year, we teachers make annual plans which then form our framework conditions for each semester. We the teachers choose what should be in these annual plans, but the Directorate of Education’s governing directives give us the direction of what overall obligations are to be followed. This means that we first look at what is put forward by the Directorate of Education (Udir) for socio-professional reasons within each individual subject, as well as age groupings, then we form the basis for the educational reference points that we must deal with. The individual subject teacher chooses relatively freely from in most times a large and varied supply of subject titles.

For example, if I want to deal with the First World War, in the 8th grade, then it is in the subject plans issued by the Directorate of Education for the 8th grade regarding topic of historical war acts, let’s say within the subject of social studies. The directorate of education then promptly refers to the statues of formulative, that; “the 8th grade students should familiarize themselves with acts of war related factuality’s that took place from the early parts of the 20th century and up to the mid-20th century.” I can then freely choose for myself whether it will be World War I or World War II, or the Korea war for that matter etc.

When it comes to whether we the teachers follow the original intended textbook in chosen subject field then answer is a resounding no.

The textbooks in many cases are not good enough, as they are in most cases mostly viewed as deficient, and not very educational directed by the selected study group, reasons of why this is many, mostly economic, there I said it. But if this should prove to be the case, the individual subject teacher can then decide of whether to move outside that particular subject book or books. And rather work with online teaching aids, as they may be better suited to accommodate the students’ curiosity and eagerness for new knowledge about that specific field of study. If so is done, the cost in most cases falls on the individual teacher to accommodate the students’ needs for better educational tools to work with. And no, we are not refunded for our personal spendings ever.

An exemplified picturesque glorification of our country’s education of our future citizens, looked after in the best possible way by our society’s leaders for maximum return.

Jacobsen: For some students where the material doesn’t quite ‘stick,’ how do you reinterpret the curriculum for them to ‘get’ it?

Jorgensen: The mental barrier that needs to be overcome for the individual student when he or she encounters the curriculum material, and how to approach it is by no means easy. I have seen through observation as to how each individual student works, and by talking to the students about what he or she does to adapt to the new material.

This is one of the things that you must address, to be able to grasp the bigger picture of how to approach to the student’s pleasure center when faced with new educational material. The methodology that I use the most, and as I perceive as the most beneficial approach of exploration of self-awareness, thus making the student aware of what is meant by the term best explained as; “curriculum thrill-seeking.” What is meant by that, well it can be easily explained by finding one’s trigger points in our learning paths, in the same way as trigger points to resolve muscle knots, or tackling stress centers, anxiety etc. We also have these when it comes to mental learning centers, or pleasure-oriented mental structural joints, we call it in Norwegian: (Lystbetont læring).

The student is guided so to identify these learning centers which will then in turn help the student the next time to mentally visualizing, and thus choose what type to replicate. And furthered, what type of approach to use as what was previously experienced to work best in relation to the curriculum material previously studied. This method of approach will work within any field of study at all levels of education. We are not talking here about cramming the material, or about using the scaffolding method, whereas you build upon previously practiced knowledge in several stages to find out for yourself which way you learn best, to be self-aware.

No, here we are talking about uncovering which centers provide access for the student in the face of all new knowledge. This does not need to be built on, you just bypass this process all together. The brain creates shortcuts to exactly what you recognize from mental stimuli, where you felt happy and at the same time learning at your best, i.e., a joining where learning becomes pleasurable, then you have a higher state of education that sticks.

This process is usually done within the first 2-4 weeks in the first semester, they just must crack this code first, then they will get access to pleasure-based learning and at the same time see the utility in this in the long run.

You must remember that learning new material can be in many cases be seen as losing weight, for example. You study like crazy before an exam and then after taken the exam you remember quite a lot of the material a few hours later, maybe even 20 percent a few days later, but all that studying for that exam falls away very rapidly. This can be compared to gaining and losing weight, for almost all people. One can be very good at slimming down and lose 10-15 kilos in weight, but as we all know all too well, for the vast majority of people this weight loss goes right back up after short period of time.

My six missions as an educator

1^st mission is to expand the concept of education and the enrichments that follows, to broaden our understanding of unity, and our monocular constructs.

2^nd mission is to inspire the students to evolve and strive for a greater self-awareness.

3^rd mission is to help the students to identify who they really are in all roles of society.

4^th mission is to teach about the concept of education as omnipresent, forever engraved in our DNA as an adventurous eternal learning curve called life. Only to be blissfully embraced throughout the generations as an historical treasure that can never be stolen nor lost.

5^th mission is to educate about the importance of altruism, and further how to preserve and cherish all living things. In a society that sees to much suffering, we must help the ones in need, both humans and animals. We are guardians of life, we are the protectors of democracy, we are the ones that stands against injustice and society’s skewed distribution; thus, we stand united for equality and righteousness.

6^th mission are words that comes from the heart to take hold off on their path towards global citizenship; I see you, I accept you, thus I embrace you, for you are like me, and we are the same.

Jacobsen: What do you do in the case of a motivated, intelligent student who consumes the entirety of the material, gets perfect or near perfect on the examinations, and runs out of material in the formal curriculum for the school year?

Jorgensen: As a rule, I obtain an overview of this type of student early in the semester, this in collaboration with the other subject teachers not only at my own level, but across levels. It must be remembered that in transition meetings between the steps, it is mapped according to each individual student, which is then archived. These folders contain everything discovered along the way on both ends. The schools are solution-oriented, and there is special material to meet these needs. It must be said that the understanding or uncovering of gifted students is poorly understood in Norwegian schools. This is now being worked on centrally according to the directorate of education, Udir, and I am in conversation with my own job, where this is now being worked on directly with the municipal management. As this has been pointed out, I have my own solutions for what can then be done to accommodate these pupils who have reached their maximum at their age level. There are several steps that can be taken.

Refer to the step above, where these students encounter challenging teaching material in the subject groups where this is needed.
Get extra subject material at the level the student is at in the subject groups that then again need strengthening.
Be referred to in-depth, type 2, teaching in the subject groups that need strengthening.
Be referred to another school, upper secondary school, where these students can get further reinforcement in the respective subject groups.
Present your own subject material, with your own designed open tasks, where in correspondence with private sponsored faculties who have researched these students about the type of teaching material that the schools should use, i.e., sketches of how to hit the correct mark of higher goal attainment, through these individually adapted directives that are followed. I have then mentioned my efforts with the help of June Maker and her team, who work directly against this type of problem.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10). December 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, December 8). Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (December 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10) [Internet]. 2022 Dec; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-12-08

The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2)

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: December 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: E

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: “The Tsimshian”

Individual Publication Date: December 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Corey Moraes

Word Count: 2,907

Image Credit: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

*Interview conducted on May 3, 2020.*

Abstract

Corey Moraes is Tsimshian. He was born April 14, 1970, in Seattle, Washington. He has worked in both the U.S.A. and in Canada. He has painted canoes for Vision Quest Journeys (1997). He was featured in Totems to Turquoise (2005), Challenging Traditions (2009), and Continuum: Vision and Creativity on the Northwest Coast (2009). He earned the 2010 Aboriginal Traditional Visual Art Award and Grant from the Canada Council for the Arts. His trademark artistic works are Coastal Tsimshian style with gold jewellery, limited edition prints, masks, silver jewellery, and wood carvings. Moraes discusses: a Tsimshian community; the earliest recorded history of the Tsimshian people; current population; the missionaries; the government; the four clans; language translation; colouring; the civilization; trade; natural disasters; European imposed theologies; and Creator.

Keywords: colouring, Corey Moraes, Creator, culture, Europeans, language, missionaries, Raven, trade, Tsimshian.

The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2)

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Before, we talked about some of the work that you do and leaving off with some commentary as a family and a child. Today, it will be on community and some of the contextualizations with a larger sense of self in tribes.

What is the context within a Tsimshian community of a sense of self?

Corey Moraes: How do we know who we are in terms of Tsimshian community historically? Everything was matrilineal. None of the major decisions were made without the input, inclusion, of the female leaders. But female leaders were never the chief; the chief was the final say.

Our social structure was very communal. You could have a dozen or more families in what our people call a Long House or a Big House separated by partitions with many generations all living together. But there were the common people and the people who had more inherent value because of their lineage.

It led right into the chieftainship and how that structure works. For example, a chief’s name has to go down. It doesn’t go to the chief’s son. It goes to his oldest sister’s son. If there is no nephew, then it goes to the next sister’s son, like that.

There were arranged marriages. Some of this, because of the clan system; our people had four clan names: Eagle, Raven, Killer Whale, and Frog. As I look back historically, I believe, this is my opinion, that those structures were set up to have an equal balance of hunting and fishing rights.

One family might have an advantageous fishing grounds or hunting area. So, they would marry another family who might have something else that they need and then build their power up like that. There was a high-level animism.

The belief that things were possessed with spirit. So, we were no more valuable than the animals, trees, rocks. We all belonged to your Higher Power or your Great Spirit. All of that was based on a particular mythology as well.

Jacobsen: What is some of the earliest recorded history of the Tsimshian people?

Moraes: It was always the explorers, the Spanish, for example. Not documented, but evidence of, is the Nordic peoples, the Vikings, had made their way. But as far as recorded history, it comes down to the European explorers. I don’t have an exact date.

There’s more that comes out in the present day. It contradicts what they have as established facts and anthropological facts. I think the biggest flaw in our history – other than not having a written history – is the things that we have created, historically, were often, or almost exclusively, created in biodegradable materials.

Jacobsen: Can you expand on that?

Moraes: Well, our lineage, family histories, village histories, were on totem poles and our regalia before European explorers brought over wool blankets. They were portrayed on animal hides. A lot of our history is made to rot.

As far as the oral history, that was our law. We found, as we look back, more power in oral history than we did in the form of written history. Everything was passed on orally.

Jacobsen: The current population sits under 10,000. Were the numbers historically at similar levels or higher/lower?

Moraes: They were much higher. I don’t have exact numbers. But we lost tens of thousands up and down the coast to a type of plague that only, recently, have I read an article that based patient zero in Vancouver Island. It was by transferring infested blankets.

They knew that these blankets were infested with smallpox. They knew that our commerce relied on trade up and down the coast. So, they knew these blankets would cover a lot of ground very quickly. There’s a lot of documentation of the horrendous result of the smallpox plague on men and children.

Haida-Gwaii, for example, it decimated their population to just a few hundred before it was stopped. They had tens of thousands before that. That shows a stasis of how devastating European illness was on us.

We had no antibodies to fight off these viruses. They very quickly found out the weaknesses. They could exploit our social structures. A lot of that hinged on trade.

Jacobsen: Was this grounded in the missionaries?

Moraes: The missionaries played a large part in trying to abolish the Aboriginal from the ground up. We were forced to adopt new belief systems. We were forced to stop speaking our language when they realized that they couldn’t kill us with virus. They started introducing alcohol.

When that was working sufficiently enough, they looked at what is the core of a village. The core of any village was its children. Its children were its future. So, they decided to remove the heart of the communities and take all the children and put them in Residential Schools, forced them, beat them.

If they spoke any of their language, which was all that they knew, then they took them to far flung Residential Schools, which weren’t anywhere near where their village was. They refused to let their parents visit them.

There are documents of missionaries writing to various white settlers saying, ‘These poor Indians. They don’t care about their children. They’re going to be alone for Christmas. If you can spend a few days to take care of this child and do God’s work, it would be greatly appreciated.’

They paid them. They used our children to experiment on. One of them was starvation, to see how long they could starve before they died.

Jacobsen: How was the government complicit?

Moraes: The government interests have always been in the land. Even with the Magna Carta and the European construct of obtaining lands via conquests or cession, in the United States, the lands, obviously, were acquired via conquests. They murdered every man, woman, child, and senior, until they gave up.

In Canada, they went the way of cession paperwork. Where, they would tell them, “Look, the Settlers are non-stop. They are going to keep coming. It is in your best interest to hand over your land to us to care of. In return, we will take care of you, take care of your lands,” which diminished more and more as resources were found, explored, and exploited in reservations getting smaller and smaller.

So, they wanted the land. What was standing in the way of them were the first inhabitants of North America, to this day, there is a trust, which contains monies for Aboriginal peoples. Any of the monies being distributed today are only being taken from the interest of the original money started.

So, when you hear people say, “These are unceded territories.” They are referring to the government never signing any agreement that say the original peoples give this land to them. The Canadian government is described as caring for the Aboriginal peoples in exchange for the use of the land.

Jacobsen: Regarding the four clans of Eagle (Laxsgiik), Killer Whale (Gispwudwada), Raven (Ganhada), and Wolf (Laxgibuu), what is the clan for you?

Moraes: I am Raven.

Jacobsen: What is the contextualization with that particular clan in specialization?

Moraes: As I said, each clan had certain hunting and fishing rights. I need to close my thought loop there. My wife and I are both Raven Clan. Historically, we were never allowed to marry the same clan. You had to marry another clan.

That’s why I say, ‘Looking back historically, I am a believer. This wasn’t to prevent incest.’ Because there was incest within royal families in Europe to protect the bloodline, to purify it, much as how you get a pure bred dog.

It was done in Aboriginal cultures. I think, at its core, the clans were set up to equally distribute the hunting and the fishing rights. So, if the Raven clans had very strong hunting territories, but were weak in some fishing areas, they would find another clan – Eagle, Wolf, Killer Whale – that would fulfill that requirement.

They would arrange the marriages. It was an equal distribution of power. So, it wasn’t so much that Raven had certain responsibilities and Eagle had different responsibilities. I think it broke down to distribution of wealth. I don’t know what the modern term would be for that.

Jacobsen: For the language translation, why is it real or true tongue?

Moraes: There are a lot of words in the English language, which we don’t have in our traditional Sm’álgyax language. And the other way as well. There are words in our language that require a phrase in English to be the nearest interpretation of what that word means. For example, our village is called Lax Kw’Alaams. Lax Kw’Alaams means “the people of wild roses.” There are wild roses growing on our island. “Lax” means “the people” much like “Volks-” in “Volkswagen” as in “people wagon.” Right?

So, some of our things are literal. Other ones aren’t. What is even worse, much like the English language, one word can be spelled many different ways for the same thing and many words can have many different meanings depending on the context in which it is spoken.

That’s why translating our language into a narrative in a book can be most challenging because transcribing it word-for-word into English loses much of the meaning.

Jacobsen: In terms of art and colouring, most nations of people, whether modern or not, have particular colourings associated with their own culture. What is the colouring associated with the Tsimshian?

Moraes: Predominantly red and black.

Jacobsen: Why?

Moraes: We got black from charcoal. We got red from ocher. They were viewed as life and death. Additional pigments that we brought in; I don’t know much about the meaning of the additional pigments. Some of it had to do with region.

For example, a copper oxide colour could only be obtained from a small area in the Chilcotin River. Some of those pigments could only reach the Tsimshian by a certain timeline. They sometimes added it because it deepened out colour palette.

Also, when Europeans arrived, they brought things like Chinese red, for example, which was a different shade, and vermilion. These things, when you look back at the historical pieces, speak of the inclusion of trade with Europeans.

Jacobsen: Is there any indication as to how old the civilization is?

Moraes: It goes back. Anthropologists think it may go back more than 10,000 years. Some evidence crops up, even in the present day, that it goes back 40,000, or 60,000, years. A segment of my population and I believe that we very well may have come across a land bridge. I would say the majority of our people.

Because they have so much stripped of them and their identity. They refuse to believe that we just sprung up out of the ground here. That there’s so much similarity between our people and plains people and Asian cultures.

Jacobsen: How was trade in association with art productions with surrounding nations?

Moraes: It was our gross domestic product: our art. Our people were very static in Northern coast. We worked very hard in the Spring and the Summer, and used Fall to prepare the reserve of the things that we worked so hard to preserve, e.g., using air-drying process, pickling, and smoking, to increase the cabinet life of the things that we harvested.

But during the Winter months, all of our fishers and all of our hunters had a lot of time of their hands. Being in such close contact with wildlife, that became the natural platform for transcribing our stories into artworks.

These artworks were commissioned by our high chiefs and, sometimes, by high chiefs of neighbouring villages, which is why, sometimes, there’s art anthropologically. There are totem poles, for example. There could be a totem pole in Bella Bella.

A lot of people say, “That’s a Tsimshian totem pole.” Others will say, “That’s not a Tsimshian totem pole. It’s in Bella Bella.” A Tsimshian carver could have been commissioned to make a totem pole that was for Bella Bella.

Jacobsen: Did any natural disasters impact the culture?

Moraes: Natural disasters, absolutely, there’s always talk of a great flood that killed a large portion of our population pre-contact. Historically, there’s a legend that that something had a terminology placed on it in the ‘60s by a white scholar named Bill Holmes.

He had such a keen interest in Northwest Coast history. He was cataloguing and studying all of these anthropological pieces. He had to put a word to the form. He had to come up with a collective term for all of the languages. He coined the term “Formline.”

It is a non-Native term. Additionally, our people didn’t even have a word for “art,” which is what all of our pieces are viewed as and categorized as; they’re seen as “works of art.” But to us, they were a dialogue. They weren’t something to be hung on a wall and admired.

They had their own spirit. They portrayed stories and legends. Some of them so powerful that they were only brought out on special occasions. They knew when they transmitted their power in the performance. Then they were put in a box and never shown until the next performance when they were required.

Jacobsen: How have European imposed theologies mixed for some members of the community with traditional beliefs? Some of the animism, for instance.

Moraes: Very much in the Tsimshian community, which is why the majority of our grand works were destroyed, they were burned. The theologians believed that we worshipped totem poles. The reason that they believed that; they found them to be idols, pagan idols.

You know the history of organized religion and paganism. One example would be a totem pole with wings. If a silhouette, what does it resemble?

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Moraes: In traditional Christianity, as you know, they have a belief in angels. In our spiritual belief system, Tsimshian, in particular, we had more of an angel, Nax’nox. That was a spiritual being that transmitted certain messages.

So, those two things formed the basis for a very basic understanding of why the Tsimshian took so enthusiastically to Christianity, as we were a progressive people. Tribes, one to another, would want to be labelled more progressive than their neighbour. “Progressive” meant “power.”

They willingly gave up their culture because they thought, if they jumped on the Christianity bandwagon, they’d be more progressive than their neighbours.

Jacobsen: What makes Creator, in the traditional belief structure, similar and different to the Christian God?

Moraes: The Christian God was a very vengeful person. Whereas, our Bringer of Light, which was Raven, was a multi-flawed Creator. To understand what I mean when I say that, he always wanted to do something progressive. But, oftentimes, the method in which he did that hurt him more than it hurt anybody else.

An example of that would be Raven with a broken beak. A very quick story of that is Raven is trying to steal a halibut fisherman’s catch. In his greed, he pulls on the fish so much so that the halibut hook catches his beak.

In his greed, as he is pulling up to try to get away with the catch, he breaks his beak. His great beak is hanging down off of his chin. That’s one example. What would you call that?

Jacobsen: Damage from a well-intentioned flawed plan.

Moraes: Yes, there you go. Also, Raven brings light to the world. Have you heard that story?

Jacobsen: I don’t recall this.

Moraes: It varies from tribe to tribe. The gist of it: Raven knows the Chief of the Sky has greedily retained the Sun and Moon, and the stars, in a great wooden chest in his longhouse. The world is in darkness.

So, Raven devises a plan in which he is going to get to that box. Depending on that village or tribe that you are talking to, I’ll give you one example. He notices that the Chief of the Sky has a very beautiful daughter.

He has attested that he is not going to release any of these Sun, Moon, or stars. He loves his daughter deeply. So, Raven transforms himself into a pine needle. One day, the Chief of the Sky’s daughter goes down to the river and collects water.

Raven has a needle and gets taken up with the water. She drinks the water and becomes pregnant and has this child and seems like the Virgin Mary, right? She births this little boy, who is the grandson of the Chief of the Sky.

At one point in the young man’s life, he becomes inconsolable. The Chief tries anything that he can to console his grandson. The boy, he keeps wanting the Chief to open up the box. He cries enough so the Chief relents.

He opens the box and lets the child play with the Sun, the Moon, and the stars. He tells him, “I’ve got to put them back when you’re done.” One day when the Chief wasn’t paying close attention; the young boy transforms into Raven, who was white feathered, Raven grabs the Sun and proceeds to fly through the smoke hole.

It is a large on in the ceiling of the longhouse, which always a fire pit in the center. As he is flying up through the smoke hole to the release the Sun, he gets covered in soot and gets covered in black.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2). December 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, December 15). The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (December 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2) [Internet]. 2022 Nov; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright © Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-12-08

The search for meaning in these times

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: December 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: B

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: None.

Individual Publication Date: December 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): James Haught

Author(s) Bio: James A. Haught was the longtime editor at the Charleston Gazette and has been the editor emeritus since 2015. He also is a senior editor of Free Inquiry magazine and was writer-in-residence for the United Coalition of Reason.

Word Count: 1,235

Image Credit: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the publication.*

*Republished with permission.*

Abstract

This article reflects on age-old searches for meaning by young people, while taking a wide-ranging historical perspective on the nature of philosophical development in human history.

Keywords: futility, Greeks, humanity, meaning, philosophy, religious believers, scientific facts, truth, universe, youth.

The search for meaning in these times

Young seekers of truth go through a phase of wondering whether life has any discernible meaning. They’re quite certainly thinking about this even more intensely now with the pandemic currently raging all around us.

Why are we here? Why does the universe exist? Is there a purpose to it all? These are the ultimate questions, overarching all others.

The seekers usually plunge into philosophy, and spend years sweating. In the end, most of them emerge (as I did) with no better answer than when they began — and a feeling that they wasted a lot of time and effort. Omar Khayyam felt the same way 900 years ago:

Myself when young did eagerly frequent

Doctor and saint, and heard great argument

About it and about, but evermore

Came out by the same door as in I went.

However, despite this futility, I think intelligent people can address the meaning-of-life question sensibly, without bogging down in philosophical stewing and hair-splitting. That’s what I’d like to do now: just spell out what’s knowable, as I see it.

First, the vast majority of humanity — the religious believers — needn’t ask the meaning of life. Churches, mosques and temples tell them the answer. Priests and scriptures say a magical, invisible God created the universe, and put people here to be tested. This supernatural explanation, or some other mystical version, is accepted by the preponderance of the species.

But some of us can’t swallow it, because there’s no evidence. Nobody can prove that people live after death. Nobody can prove that we are tortured or rewarded in an afterlife — or that there are invisible spirits to do the torturing and rewarding.

Therefore, we unsure people are doomed to be seekers, always searching for a meaning to life, but never quite finding one. I’ve been going through it for half a century. Now, I think I can declare that there are two clear answers: (1) Life has no meaning. (2) Life has a thousand meanings.

First, the lack of meaning: As for an ultimate purpose or transcending moral order, all the great thinkers since ancient Greece have failed to find one. The best philosophical minds have dug into this for 25 centuries, without success. There have been endless theories, but no clear answer. Martin Heidegger concluded that we are doomed to live our whole lives and die without knowing why we’re here. That’s existentialism: All we can really know is that we and the material world exist.

As we learn scientific facts, we realize that the universe is horribly violent, with stars exploding or disappearing into black holes. Here on Earth, nature can be equally monstrous. Both the cosmos and our biosphere seem utterly indifferent to humanity, caring not a whit whether we live or die. Earthquakes and hurricanes and volcanoes, for instance, don’t give a damn whether they hit us or miss us. Tigers, tapeworms and bacteria consider us food.

As for morality, I don’t think any exists, independent of people. It’s merely rules that cultures evolve for themselves, in their attempt to make life workable.

Take human rights. Thomas Jefferson said all people “are endowed by their Creator with certain unalienable rights.” But I think Jefferson was wrong. There’s no evidence that any Creator endowed anyone with any God-given rights. What unalienable rights were enjoyed by Africans who were sold into slavery — including those on Jefferson’s Monticello plantation?

What’s the meaning of life to the tens of thousands who have been felled by COVID-19 — and the millions who died in the 1918 flu epidemic and in the Black Plague? Or the 20,000 victims the Aztecs sacrificed annually to the invisible flying serpent? Or the 20,000 the Thugs strangled for the goddess Kali?

All these horrors have a grotesque absurdity about them. Words like purpose, rights and morals simply don’t apply.

I think these evils make it obvious, by simple logic, that there is no all-loving, all-merciful, all-compassionate, father God. How could a kindly father watch idly while thousands of children die of leukemia, ignoring the desperate prayers of their families? Why would a kindly creator design nature so that lions slaughter antelopes, and pythons suffocate pigs, and sharks rip seals apart — and women die of breast cancer? Only a monster would arrange such monstrosities, and do nothing to save the victims. Therefore, common sense proves that the beneficent modern God is a fantasy who doesn’t exist.

In his book Consilience, the great Harvard sociobiologist E.O. Wilson pointed out that there are two fundamental ways of looking at reality: Empiricism, believing only what evidence tells you — and Transcendentalism, believing that a divine or cosmic moral order exists, independent of humanity. If any proof ever upholds the latter, he said, “the discovery would be quite simply the most consequential in human history.” But it has never occurred.

So much for meaninglessness. Now for the many meanings:

Obviously, the reality of physics, chemistry, biology, atoms, cells, matter, radiation and all the rest of nature imposes a physical order upon us. We can’t escape the laws of nature that govern animals on an orbiting planet. And the inevitability of death is a force stronger than we are. We can’t prevent it. Therefore, whatever meanings exist must apply to the temporary period while we live.

Clearly, there’s a physical and psychological purpose to life. Our bodies need food, and clothing, and shelter, and health, and affectionate comfort, and security from violence and theft, and so forth. We also need gregarious social reaction with people around us. And we need democratic freedoms, so we can speak honestly without fear of punishment — and justice, so we won’t be treated cruelly. These are the humanist purposes of life: to provide better nutrition, medicine, housing, transportation, education, safety, human rights, and all the other needs of people.

To attain this humanist “good life,” the species has a strong need to raise intelligent, healthy, affectionate, responsible children. Sometimes I think the single biggest purpose in life is raising good kids. However, aside from this “housekeeping” type of purpose, is there any greater meaning that transcends our human needs?

I don’t think so. At least, I’ve never been able to find any proof of it. We simply must try to make life as good as possible, and avoid horrors, and care about people, and have fun, even though we know that oblivion is coming.

Make hay while the sun shines — because darkness is on its way. Carpe diem — seize the day for now and live fully while you can. Omar Khayyam saw the folly of aggrandizing oneself, because ill fortune or sickness and death soon wipe it out. And praying for heaven after death is even greater folly: “Fools, your reward is neither here nor there.” So Omar’s solution was to take comfort in verses, wine and his lover “beside me singing in the wilderness — and wilderness is paradise enough.” About 1,400 years before him, the great Greek skeptic Epicurus felt the same way.

So there you have it: We who are not orthodox religious believers can’t find any underlying reason for existence. And we know that death looms ahead. So we must make the interval as enjoyable as possible while we’re here. This view of life’s purpose was summed up a few years ago by the title of a Unitarian seminar: “Dancing Over the Dark Abyss.” And as Zorba the Greek has taught us: What is life, if not to dance?

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Haught J. The search for meaning in these times. December 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/meaning-times

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Haught, J. (2022, December 8). The search for meaning in these times. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/meaning-times.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): HAUGHT, J. The search for meaning in these times. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Haught, James. 2022. “The search for meaning in these times.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/meaning-times.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Haught, J “The search for meaning in these times.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (December 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/meaning-times.

Harvard: Haught, J. (2022) ‘The search for meaning in these times’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/meaning-times>.

Harvard (Australian): Haught, J 2022, ‘The search for meaning in these times’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/meaning-times>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Haught, James. “The search for meaning in these times.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/meaning-times.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Haught J. The search for meaning in these times [Internet]. 2022 Dec; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/meaning-times

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-12-08

What bible classes will not teach you

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: December 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: B

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: None.

Individual Publication Date: December 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): James Haught

Word Count: 444

Image Credit: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the publication.*

*Republished with permission.*

Abstract

This article takes a brief critical look at the American context of religion, Bible classes, and its impact the socio-political order.

Keywords: abomination, Appalachia, Bible, Bible belt, Deuteronomy, Exodus, James Haught, Jim Justice, Leviticus, Numbers, slavery.

What bible classes will not teach you

Here in Appalachia’s Bible Belt, lawmakers are attempting to have public school children study the bible — without fully realizing the implications.

The West Virginia Legislature recently voted to start bible classes in the state’s public high schools, and Gov. Jim Justice signed it into law on March 25.

I wonder how such classes will handle a number of biblical commands.

First, the bible decrees that gay males must be killed. Leviticus 20:13 says:

“If a man also lie with mankind, as he lieth with a woman, both of them have committed an abomination; they shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.”

Imagine classroom disputes that could erupt between bible-believing students and others. (Oddly, lesbians aren’t mentioned.) Now that the United States allows same-sex marriage, would classes conclude that the country officially violates the bible?

Next, the bible decrees that those who work on Sunday must be killed. Exodus 31:15 decrees: “Whosoever doeth any work in the Sabbath day, he shall surely be put to death.” Exodus 35:2 is almost identical.

Would teachers apply this mandate to police, firefighters, doctors, nurses, hospital aides, paramedics, snowplow drivers, power repair crews, bus drivers, airline crews, radio and television staff, store clerks and others who must work on Sundays? What about cooks and waitresses serving Sunday food? Come to think of it, ministers and church organists work on the Sabbath, don’t they?

The 22nd chapter of Deuteronomy commands that brides who aren’t virgins must be taken to their fathers’ doorsteps and stoned to death. (But non-virgin grooms aren’t mentioned.) With millions of unwed American couples living together, will students debate whether the execution decree applies to females among them?

The bible also endorses slavery. Leviticus 25:44 says: “Both thy bondmen, and thy bondmaids, which thou shalt have, shall be of the heathen that are round about you; of them shall ye buy bondmen and bondmaids.” Exodus 21:7 gives rules when “a man sell his daughter to be a maidservant.”

Would high school students discuss buying slaves — and selling daughters into servitude?

In 1 Samuel 15, God commands Hebrew soldiers to attack a neighbor tribe “and utterly destroy all that they have, and spare them not; but slay both man and woman, infant and suckling, ox and sheep, camel and ass.” Numbers 31 does likewise, with this exception: “But all the women children, that have not known a man by lying with him, keep alive for yourselves.”

Would classes apply these decrees to U.S. soldiers today?

Many other bible sections contain similarly controversial commands. The West Virginia legislators who voted to have bible taught in schools don’t seem to have studied the book themselves.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Haught J. What bible classes will not teach you. December 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bible-classes

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Haught, J. (2022, December 8). What bible classes will not teach you. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bible-classes.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): HAUGHT, J. What bible classes will not teach you. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Haught, James. 2022. “What bible classes will not teach you.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bible-classes.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Haught, J “What bible classes will not teach you.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (December 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bible-classes.

Harvard: Haught, J. (2022) ‘What bible classes will not teach you’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bible-classes>.

Harvard (Australian): Haught, J 2022, ‘What bible classes will not teach you’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bible-classes>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Haught, James. “What bible classes will not teach you.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bible-classes.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Haught J. What bible classes will not teach you [Internet]. 2022 Dec; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bible-classes

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-12-08

The biggest news of the 21st century

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: December 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: B

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: None.

Individual Publication Date: December 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): James Haught

Word Count: 1,071

Image Credit: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the publication.*

*Republished with permission.*

Abstract

This article takes a look at the historic transition of the downfall of supernatural belief in the more educated and free parts in the world. It is a look at the cultural decline of religion as a historic transition in many modernized societies. Looking at the history of brutality of religious faith and superstition, the author incorporates the transitional view as one of celebration of secular and humanist views winning out over centuries.

Keywords: 21^st century, Americans, conservative Christianity, Donald Trump, Europe, James Haught, religion, Secular Humanism, Secularism.

The biggest news of the 21st century

The coronavirus pandemic currently seems to be the most significant occurrence in the 21st century so far. But pandemics eventually burn out and fade into history like the 1918 flu tragedy.

There’s a deeper event, like the hidden bulk of an iceberg, that bodes to have a more profound impact on the future of civilization. It’s the remarkably rapid collapse of religion in industrialized democracies. Sociologists are stunned by the abrupt downfall of supernatural faith in Western societies. This swift cultural transformation gained traction in the 1990s and then accelerated.

For example, more than half of United Kingdom adults now have no church identity, according to the latest British Social Attitudes survey.

“Fifty-two percent of the public say they do not belong to any religion, compared to 31 percent in 1983 when the BSA began tracking religious belief,” The London Guardian has reported. “One in four members of the public stated, ‘I do not believe in God,’ compared with one in 10 in 1998.”

The Telegraph newspaper adds that 26 percent of Britons labeled themselves “confident atheists,” up from 10 percent in 1998. It quotes researcher Nancy Kelley as saying the surprising retreat of religion is “one of the most important trends in postwar history.”

Ironically, Europeans spent centuries killing each other over religion, such as in the Crusades, Inquisitions, witch hunts, Reformation wars, pogroms against Jews and the massacres of Anabaptists. Then Europe finally decided that faith is inconsequential.

Similar secularization is reported across Scandinavia, Canada, Australia, Japan, New Zealand and the like. Religion has fizzled since the 1990s.

America traditionally was an exception in being a faith stronghold but the United States is joining the secular tsunami. A Gallup poll from last year found that church membership fell 20 percent in the past two decades. Various polls say more than one-fourth of American adults now say their faith is “none” — and the proportion is over one-third among those under 30.

A 2020 Barna report said only one-fourth of American adults now are active “practicing Christians” – down from 45 percent in 2000. So many Catholics have quit that 13 percent of American adults now are ex-Catholics. As for tall-steeple mainline Protestants, they have shrunk drastically since the 1960s. United Methodists have dropped from 14 million to below 7 million. Presbyterians have fallen from 4.2 million to 1.4 million. Episcopalians have faded from 3.6 million to 1.8 million. The Disciples of Christ have sunk from 1.9 million to 600,000. Meanwhile, America’s population has doubled.

That’s a huge drop in four decades.

The retreat of religion can be seen in evolving morality: When I was young in the 1950s, church-backed laws made it a crime for stores to open on the Sabbath, or clubs to serve cocktails, or adults to look at something like a Playboy magazine or nude scenes in an R-rated movie, or to sell a lottery ticket, or to read a sexy novel. (My hometown mayor sent cops to raid bookstores selling Peyton Place.) Gay sex was a felony. Jews were banned from many clubs. It was a crime for an unwed couple to share a bedroom.

But all those theocratic taboos shrank and disappeared. The nation’s values evolved. Religion lost its power. It occurred so gradually that few noticed.

America today is mostly a “functional atheist” society. Daily public life rolls on with not very much mention of magical gods, devils, heavens, hells and other church dogmas. The culture most often behaves as if they don’t exist.

The collapse of religion can be seen in America’s growing tolerance of homosexuality. Most of the nation now accepts gays as fellow humans — while many churches still declare them evil. (The bible decrees that gay males must be killed. “They shall surely be put to death; their blood shall be upon them.” Leviticus 20:13.) Americans generally became kinder, leaving clerics and the bible behind. Morality evolved, but religion didn’t.

Scholars offer various explanations for the Western secular surge. Mostly, they say that religion thrives in low-income, undeveloped lands where people need supernatural comfort — but that need vanishes when life becomes affluent and secure.

Personally, I think education and intelligence are involved. Several studies have found that doubters are smarter than believers. Researchers say America’s average IQ rises by three points per decade, while tests are recalibrated to keep the median at 100. Many intelligent people can’t swallow magical claims of religion. Americans are becoming smarter, and they’re leaving supernaturalism behind.

Of course, American churches will linger interminably as congregations age. But they’re increasingly sidelined.

Like many profound culture shifts, the secular transformation is sometimes little noticed. Television still teems with big-money evangelists who buy air time to beg for cash to buy more air time. Politicians (especially Republicans) still invoke the holies and demand public displays of the motto “In God We Trust.”

Speaking of Republicans, the GOP relies heavily upon white evangelicals as its political base. As religion shrinks, the future power of the conservative party is thrown into doubt. Polls show that born-again whites were 27 percent of America’s population in the 1990s, but now they’ve slipped as low as 13 percent. Southern Baptists have lost 1.5 million members since 2006. But those who remain are intensely active in politics. They gave 81 percent of their votes to Donald Trump in the 2016 election.

Why do fundamentalists embrace a vulgar, shallow, obnoxious, juvenile, self-worshiping racist who abuses women and speaks in the coarsest language? Why do they want the extreme opposite of Jesus? Wake Forest University church historian Bill Leonard says white evangelicals flock to Trump because they’re in “panic at the precipitous decline of Christianity.”

In other words, conservative Christians feel their dominance of America’s culture evaporating, and they’re desperate. For example, they spent centuries demonizing “evil” gays — yet most Americans now accept homosexuals cordially, and the Supreme Court allowed same-sex marriage. It was a crushing blow to the Religious Right. In fact, repulsive political activity by white evangelicals is a strong reason why many tolerant young Americans renounce religion.

In Western civilization, profound demographic change is happening in this 21st century. White Christian America, for instance, is fizzling away, month after month, year after year. Old Puritanical taboos are disappearing. The alliance of bible-thumping evangelicals and the Republican Party has a diminishing future, doomed to minority status. Churches are shrinking. Secularism is soaring. Humanist values wield ever-greater strength in public life.

All I can say is: Hallelujah!

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Haught J. The biggest news of the 21st century. December 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/news-21st

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Haught, J. (2022, December 8). The biggest news of the 21st century. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/news-21st.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): HAUGHT, J. The biggest news of the 21st century. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Haught, James. 2022. “The biggest news of the 21st century.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/news-21st.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Haught, J “The biggest news of the 21st century.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (December 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/news-21st.

Harvard: Haught, J. (2022) ‘The biggest news of the 21st century’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/news-21st>.

Harvard (Australian): Haught, J 2022, ‘The biggest news of the 21st century’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/news-21st>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Haught, James. “The biggest news of the 21st century.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/news-21st.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Haught J. The biggest news of the 21st century [Internet]. 2022 Dec; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/news-21st

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-11-15

The Pathology of Love

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: November 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: B

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: None.

Individual Publication Date: November 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Sam Vaknin

Author(s) Bio: Sam Vaknin is the author of Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited as well as many other books and ebooks about topics in psychology, relationships, philosophy, economics, international affairs, and award-winning short fiction. He is former Visiting Professor of Psychology, Southern Federal University, Rostov-on-Don, Russia and Professor of Finance and Psychology in SIAS-CIAPS (Centre for International Advanced and Professional Studies). He was the Editor-in-Chief of Global Politician and served as a columnist for Central Europe Review, PopMatters, eBookWeb, and Bellaonline, and as a United Press International (UPI) Senior Business Correspondent. He was the editor of mental health and Central East Europe categories in The Open Directory and Suite101. His YouTube channels garnered 20,000,000 views and 85,000 subscribers. Visit Sam’s Web site: http://www.narcissistic-abuse.co m.

Word Count: 2,234

Image Credit: Sam Vaknin.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the publication.*

*Republished with permission.*

Abstract

This article examines the nature of love from a neuroscientific, psychoanalytic, and psychological, perspective with reference to prominent researchers and academic publications on the relationship of love expressed in the human brain, in social systems, and presents the point of view of love as a pathology.

Keywords: brain, Electra Complex, females, Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal axis, infatuation, love, males, Oedipus Complex, pathology, Sam Vaknin.

The Pathology of Love

The unpalatable truth is that falling in love is, in some ways, indistinguishable from a severe pathology. Behavior changes are reminiscent of psychosis and, biochemically speaking, passionate love closely imitates substance abuse. Appearing in the BBC series Body Hits on December 4, 2002 Dr. John Marsden, the head of the British National Addiction Center, said that love is addictive, akin to cocaine and speed. Sex is a “booby trap”, intended to bind the partners long enough to bond.

In experiments on voles, conducted by a German scientist, Dr. Oliver Bosch, males separated from females after 5 days spent together evinced marked signs of the animal equivalent of depression in humans (known as “passive stress coping”). These males had extreme levels of the stress biochemical corticosterone. Their HPA (Hypothalamic-Pituitary-Adrenal) axis was so hard at work that their glands hypertrophied.

But when Bosch blocked in their tiny brains receptors for CFR (Corticotropine-releasing Factor), he struck gold: the males remembered their mates and bonded with them, but did not care where they were at the time. Both the voles which remained with their females and the ones who got separated had elevated levels of CRF in the BNST (Bed Nucleus of Stria Terminalis).

Bonding generates CRF but prevents it from acting on the HPA as long as the couple is together. Compulsion or addiction to the mate replaces infatuation (dopamine release). It feels bad to be apart and people seek to ameliorate the misery by restoring their togetherness – or by denying or reframing the separateness. According to Dr. George Koob, Chairman of the Committee on the Neurobiology of Addictive Disorders at the Scripps Research Institute, CRF signals that a loss has to be addressed. The same mechanism is at play is drug addiction and alcoholism.

Using functional Magnetic Resonance Imaging (fMRI), Andreas Bartels and Semir Zeki of University College in London showed that the same areas of the brain are active when abusing drugs and when in love. The prefrontal cortex – hyperactive in depressed patients – is inactive when besotted. How can this be reconciled with the low levels of serotonin that are the telltale sign of both depression and infatuation – is not known.

Other MRI studies, conducted in 2006-7 by Dr. Lucy Brown, a professor in the department of neurology and neuroscience at the Albert Einstein College of Medicine in New York, and her colleagues, revealed that the caudate and the ventral tegmental, brain areas involved in cravings (e.g., for food) and the secretion of dopamine, are lit up in subjects who view photos of their loved ones. Dopamine is a neurotransmitter that affects pleasure and motivation. It causes a sensation akin to a substance-induced high.

On August 14, 2007, the New Scientist News Service gave the details of a study originally published in the Journal of Adolescent Health earlier that year. Serge Brand of the Psychiatric University Clinics in Basel, Switzerland, and his colleagues interviewed 113 teenagers (17-year old), 65 of whom reported having fallen in love recently.

The conclusion? The love-struck adolescents slept less, acted more compulsively more often, had “lots of ideas and creative energy”, and were more likely to engage in risky behavior, such as reckless driving.

“‘We were able to demonstrate that adolescents in early-stage intense romantic love did not differ from patients during a hypomanic stage,’ say the researchers. This leads them to conclude that intense romantic love in teenagers is a ‘psychopathologically prominent stage'”.

But is it erotic lust or is it love that brings about these cerebral upheavals?

As distinct from love, lust is brought on by surges of sex hormones, such as testosterone and estrogen. These induce an indiscriminate scramble for physical gratification. In the brain, the hypothalamus (controls hunger, thirst, and other primordial drives) and the amygdala (the locus of arousal) become active. Attraction transpires once a more-or-less appropriate object is found (with the right body language and speed and tone of voice) and results in a panoply of sleep and eating disorders.

A recent study in the University of Chicago demonstrated that testosterone levels shoot up by one third even during a casual chat with a female stranger. The stronger the hormonal reaction, the more marked the changes in behavior, concluded the authors. This loop may be part of a larger “mating response”. In animals, testosterone provokes aggression and recklessness. The hormone’s readings in married men and fathers are markedly lower than in single males still “playing the field”.

Still, the long-term outcomes of being in love are lustful. Dopamine, heavily secreted while falling in love, triggers the production of testosterone and sexual attraction then kicks in.

Helen Fisher of Rutger University suggests a three-phased model of falling in love. Each stage involves a distinct set of chemicals. The BBC summed it up succinctly and sensationally: “Events occurring in the brain when we are in love have similarities with mental illness“.

Moreover, we are attracted to people with the same genetic makeup and smell (pheromones) of our parents. Dr Martha McClintock of the University of Chicago studied feminine attraction to sweaty T-shirts formerly worn by males. The closer the smell resembled her father’s, the more attracted and aroused the woman became. Falling in love is, therefore, an exercise in proxy incest and a vindication of Freud’s much-maligned Oedipus and Electra complexes.

McClintock’s work contradicts other, less conclusive and far more controversial findings regarding the Major Histocompatibility Complex (MHC) or the Human Leukocyte Antigen (HLA). Studies demonstrated either fewer HLA matches than were expected (Ober et al.) – or no such effect (Chaix, Cao, and Donnelly, 2008). Wedekind conducted body odor studies, again with sweaty t-shirts, that demonstrated a female preference for MHC-dissimilarity, especially during ovulation, but only in women who did not use oral contraceptives. Men also preferred MHC-disassortative mate choices.

Writing in the February 2004 issue of the journal NeuroImage, Andreas Bartels of University College London’s Wellcome Department of Imaging Neuroscience described identical reactions in the brains of young mothers looking at their babies and in the brains of people looking at their lovers.

“Both romantic and maternal love are highly rewarding experiences that are linked to the perpetuation of the species, and consequently have a closely linked biological function of crucial evolutionary importance” – he told Reuters.

This incestuous backdrop of love was further demonstrated by psychologist David Perrett of the University of St Andrews in Scotland. The subjects in his experiments preferred their own faces – in other words, the composite of their two parents – when computer-morphed into the opposite sex.

Body secretions play a major role in the onslaught of love. In results published in February 2007 in the Journal of Neuroscience, researchers at the University of California at Berkeley demonstrated convincingly that women who sniffed androstadienone, a signaling chemical found in male sweat, saliva, and semen, experienced higher levels of the hormone cortisol. This results in sexual arousal and improved mood. The effect lasted a whopping one hour.

Still, contrary to prevailing misconceptions, love is mostly about negative emotions. As Professor Arthur Aron from State University of New York at Stonybrook has shown, in the first few meetings, people misinterpret certain physical cues and feelings – notably fear and thrill – as (falling in) love. Thus, counterintuitively, anxious people – especially those with the “serotonin transporter” gene – are more sexually active (i.e., fall in love more often).

Obsessive thoughts regarding the Loved One and compulsive acts are also common. Perception is distorted as is cognition. “Love is blind” and the lover easily fails the reality test. Falling in love involves the enhanced secretion of b-Phenylethylamine (PEA, or the “love chemical”) in the first 2 to 4 years of the relationship.

This natural drug creates an euphoric high and helps obscure the failings and shortcomings of the potential mate. Such oblivion – perceiving only the spouse’s good sides while discarding her bad ones – is a pathology akin to the primitive psychological defense mechanism known as “splitting”. Narcissists – patients suffering from the Narcissistic Personality Disorder – also Idealize romantic or intimate partners. A similar cognitive-emotional impairment is common in many mental health conditions.

The activity of a host of neurotransmitters – such as Dopamine, Adrenaline (Norepinephrine), and Serotonin – is heightened (or in the case of Serotonin, lowered) in both paramours. Yet, such irregularities are also associated with Obsessive-Compulsive Disorder (OCD) and depression.

It is telling that once attachment is formed and infatuation gives way to a more stable and less exuberant relationship, the levels of these substances return to normal. They are replaced by two hormones (endorphins) which usually play a part in social interactions (including bonding and sex): Oxytocin (the “cuddling chemical”) and Vasopressin. Oxytocin facilitates bonding. It is released in the mother during breastfeeding, in the members of the couple when they spend time together – and when they sexually climax. Viagra (sildenafil) seems to facilitate its release, at least in rats.

It seems, therefore, that the distinctions we often make between types of love – motherly love vs. romantic love, for instance – are artificial, as far as human biochemistry goes. As neuroscientist Larry Young’s research with prairie voles at the Yerkes National Primate Research Center at Emory University demonstrates:

“(H)uman love is set off by a “biochemical chain of events” that originally evolved in ancient brain circuits involving mother-child bonding, which is stimulated in mammals by the release of oxytocin during labor, delivery and nursing.”

He told the New-York Times (“Anti-Love Drug May Be Ticket to Bliss”, January 12, 2009):

“Some of our sexuality has evolved to stimulate that same oxytocin system to create female-male bonds,” Dr. Young said, noting that sexual foreplay and intercourse stimulate the same parts of a woman’s body that are involved in giving birth and nursing. This hormonal hypothesis, which is by no means proven fact, would help explain a couple of differences between humans and less monogamous mammals: females’ desire to have sex even when they are not fertile, and males’ erotic fascination with breasts. More frequent sex and more attention to breasts, Dr. Young said, could help build long-term bonds through a “ cocktail of ancient neuropeptides,” like the oxytocin released during foreplay or orgasm. Researchers have achieved similar results by squirting oxytocin into people’s nostrils…”

Moreover:

“A related hormone, vasopressin, creates urges for bonding and nesting when it is injected in male voles (or naturally activated by sex). After Dr. Young found that male voles with a genetically limited vasopressin response were less likely to find mates, Swedish researchers reported that men with a similar genetic tendency were less likely to get married … ‘If we give an oxytocin blocker to female voles, they become like 95 percent of other mammal species,’ Dr. Young said. ‘They will not bond no matter how many times they mate with a male or hard how he tries to bond. They mate, it feels really good and they move on if another male comes along. If love is similarly biochemically based, you should in theory be able to suppress it in a similar way.'”

Love, in all its phases and manifestations, is an addiction, probably to the various forms of internally secreted norepinephrine, such as the aforementioned amphetamine-like PEA. Love, in other words, is a form of substance abuse. The withdrawal of romantic love has serious mental health repercussions.

A study conducted by Dr. Kenneth Kendler, professor of psychiatry and director of the Virginia Institute for Psychiatric and Behavioral Genetics, and others, and published in the September 2002 issue of Archives of General Psychiatry, revealed that breakups often lead to depression and anxiety. Other, fMRI-based studies, demonstrated how the insular cortex, in charge of experiencing pain, became active when subjects viewed photos of former loved ones.

Love and lust depend on context, as well as psychological makeup, or biochemistry: one can fall in and out love with the very same person (whose biochemistry, presumably, hasn’t changed at all); the vast majority of one-night-standers reported that they did not find their partners sexually alluring: it was the opportunity that beckoned, not any specific attraction; similarly, the very same acts – kissing, hugging, even sexually explicit overtures – can be interpreted as innocuous, depending on who does what to whom and in which circumstances.

Indeed, love cannot be reduced to its biochemical and electrical components. Love is not tantamount to our bodily processes – rather, it is the way we experience them. Love is how we interpret these flows and ebbs of compounds using a higher-level language. In other words, love is pure poetry.

We are very rarely in love with a PERSON. Most often we are in love with an IDEA: the idea of being in love (we are in love with love), or the idea of being someone’s whore, or someone’s child, or someone’s healing parent. Or we are in love with what the person stands for (symbolizes): a father figure, our past, a wounded child.

We idealize our loved ones to the point that they vanish as individuals and re-merge as elements in our personal narrative and in our pathologies and wounds. We fall in love with the stories that we construct about ourselves and our environment and we force our loved ones to play scripted and emergent roles in our personal theatre production. In this restricted (and temporary) sense, when we fall in love we are all narcissistic: we fall in love with ourselves via our loved ones.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Vaknin S. The Pathology of Love. November 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/love-pathology

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Vaknin, S. (2022, November 15). The Pathology of Love. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/love-pathology.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): VAKNIN, S. The Pathology of Love. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Vaknin, Sam. 2022. “The Pathology of Love.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/love-pathology.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Vaknin, S “The Pathology of Love.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (November 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/love-pathology.

Harvard: Vaknin, S. (2022) ‘The Pathology of Love’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/love-pathology>.

Harvard (Australian): Vaknin, S 2022, ‘The Pathology of Love’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/love-pathology>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Vaknin, Sam. “The Pathology of Love.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/love-pathology.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Vaknin S. The Pathology of Love [Internet]. 2022 Nov; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/love-pathology

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-11-15

Unknowing

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: November 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: B

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: None.

Individual Publication Date: November 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Richard May/May-Tzu

Author(s) Bio: Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) is a Member of the Mega Society based on a qualifying score on the Mega Test (before 1995) prior to the compromise of the Mega Test and Co-Editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. In self-description, May states: “Not even forgotten in the cosmic microwave background (CMB), I’m an Amish yuppie, born near the rarified regions of Laputa, then and often, above suburban Boston. I’ve done occasional consulting and frequent Sisyphean shlepping. Kafka and Munch have been my therapists and allies. Occasionally I’ve strived to descend from the mists to attain the mythic orientation known as having one’s feet upon the Earth. An ailurophile and a cerebrotonic ectomorph, I write for beings which do not, and never will, exist — writings for no one. I’ve been awarded an M.A. degree, mirabile dictu, in the humanities/philosophy, and U.S. patent for a board game of possible interest to extraterrestrials. I’m a member of the Mega Society, the Omega Society and formerly of Mensa. I’m the founder of the Exa Society, the transfinite Aleph-3 Society and of the renowned Laputans Manqué. I’m a biographee in Who’s Who in the Brane World. My interests include the realization of the idea of humans as incomplete beings with the capacity to complete their own evolution by effecting a change in their being and consciousness. In a moment of presence to myself in inner silence, when I see Richard May’s non-being, ‘I’ am. You can meet me if you go to an empty room.” Some other resources include Stains Upon the Silence: something for no one, McGinnis Genealogy of Crown Point, New York: Hiram Porter McGinnis, Swines List, Solipsist Soliloquies, Board Game, Lulu blog, Memoir of a Non-Irish Non-Jew, and May-Tzu’s posterous.

Word Count: 317

Image Credit: Richard May.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the publication.*

Abstract

The short poem expresses a path from the reality of the world in mathematical logic into metaphors of monkeys with vultures as guardians iterating infinitely into an “Absolute”. A piece looking at the presence of oneself and one’s shadow to one’s self, and to one’s shadow in fact. An indicative poetic expressiveness of the recursive nature of much of the poetry of May.

Keywords: chimera, hierarchy, mathematical logic, May-Tzu, monkey, reality, Richard May, shadow, unknowing, vultures.

Unknowing

Reality, a symphony crystallized into mathematical logic and then distilled into a cloud of souls silently passing over world after world. Each monkey below has a guardian vulture circling above his head.

Each vulture looking down also has a vulture above him looking down upon him with glee in an infinite regress. Of course, the hierarchy of vultures ascends all the way to the Absolute. But …

Who mutters in the darkness? Whom do you address in the fading light? Do I exist? Do you not address at most a chimera; a fastly fading ephemeral illusion of the dust of dreams and dreams of dust, as before a mirror?

Two old cousins sitting on benches thousands of miles apart, mumbling incoherently in the night before their dissolutions, like puffs of smoke; talking to themselves with their last breaths, … about what?

Someone, a relative I think, once told me my name or alleged name, long ago. I never had the presence of mind though to ask for my autograph, as proof of my celebrity. Often I can recall it, but why this was my name is not clear to me.

Sometimes apparently I’m in the same world with myself for a few moments, maybe even in the same room. Occasionally I have even been aware of my presence nearby, as if casting a shadow.

But it was not clear to me why this was my shadow or if I was really its shadow or both were shadows of something else. Then I’d quickly forget this invasion of my privacy, returning to my usual dreams.

Once I may have momentarily seen some fleeting manifestation of myself in a mirror or a dream, nameless, but not yet invisible; Leaving no shadow and having none to leave. …

A cloud of souls silently passing over world after world. Each monkey below has a guardian vulture circling above his head.

May-Tzu

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): May R. Unknowing. November 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/unknowing

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): May, R. (2022, November 15). Unknowing. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/unknowing.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): MAY, R. Unknowing. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): May, Richard. 2022. “Unknowing.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/unknowing.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): May, R “Unknowing.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (November 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/unknowing.

Harvard: May, R. (2022) ‘Unknowing’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/unknowing>.

Harvard (Australian): May, R 2022, ‘Unknowing’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/unknowing>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): May, Richard. “Unknowing.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/unknowing.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Richard M. Unknowing [Internet]. 2022 Nov; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/unknowing

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-11-15

Incestuous Trauma, Eudaimonia and Parenthood, and ‘Atoms’ in a Void

Publisher Founding: November 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: A

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: None.

Individual Publication Date: November 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Sam Vaknin

Word Count: 4,945

Image Credit: Sam Vaknin.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

Abstract

Sam Vaknin is the author of Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited as well as many other books and ebooks about topics in psychology, relationships, philosophy, economics, international affairs, and award-winning short fiction. He is former Visiting Professor of Psychology, Southern Federal University, Rostov-on-Don, Russia and Professor of Finance and Psychology in SIAS-CIAPS (Centre for International Advanced and Professional Studies). He was the Editor-in-Chief of Global Politician and served as a columnist for Central Europe Review, PopMatters, eBookWeb, and Bellaonline, and as a United Press International (UPI) Senior Business Correspondent. He was the editor of mental health and Central East Europe categories in The Open Directory and Suite101. His YouTube channels garnered 20,000,000 views and 85,000 subscribers. Visit Sam’s Web site: http://www.narcissistic-abuse.co m. Vaknin discusses: the formal definition accepted among professionals of “incest”; trauma; incest differentially traumatic; facts on childlessness; becoming parents or not; parents do worse than the childless; consumerism and capitalism play off one another; consumerism and capitalism; consumerism and capitalism lead to atomization and loneliness; and these three controversial topics.

Keywords: atomization, autoeroticism, Capitalism, childlessness, consumerism, eudaimonia, incest, loneliness, parenthood, The Selfish Gene.

Incestuous Trauma, Eudaimonia and Parenthood, and ‘Atoms’ in a Void

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I asked about the most controversial topics to you. Three came up: Incest and trauma, parents are less happy than the childless, and capitalism and consumerism resulting in atomization and loneliness. Let’s cover those in sequence, this may be a controversial session. What is the formal definition accepted among professionals of “incest” or incestuous relations, or some other variation of the idea?

Prof. Shmuel “Sam” Vaknin, Ph.D.: Incest used to be defined as any consensual or nonconsensual sex act of any kind with a close member of the family, related by blood or by marriage. Today, we also consider certain behaviors and speech acts as incestuous if they communicate sexual or emotional information and intent that are inappropriate among relatives, especially of the first degree.

In contemporary thought, incest is invariably associated with child abuse and its horrific, long-lasting, and often irreversible consequences. Incest is not such a clear-cut matter as it has been made out to be over millennia of taboo. Many participants claim to have enjoyed the act and its physical and emotional consequences. It is often the result of seduction. In some cases, two consenting and fully informed adults are involved.

Many types of relationships, which are defined as incestuous, are between genetically unrelated parties (a stepfather and a daughter), or between fictive kin or between classificatory kin (that belong to the same matriline or patriline). In certain societies (the Native American or the Chinese) it is sufficient to carry the same family name (=to belong to the same clan) and marriage is forbidden.

Some incest prohibitions relate to sexual acts – others to marriage. In some societies, incest is mandatory or prohibited, according to the social class or particular circumstances (Ugarit, Bali, Papua New Guinea, Polynesian and Melanesian islands). In others, the Royal House started a tradition of incestuous marriages, which was later imitated by lower classes (Ancient Egypt, Hawaii, Pre-Columbian Mixtec). Some societies are more tolerant of consensual incest than others (Japan, India until the 1930’s, Australia).

The list is long and it serves to demonstrate the diversity of attitudes towards this most universal of taboos. Generally put, we can say that a prohibition to have sex with or marry a related person should be classified as an incest prohibition.

Perhaps the strongest feature of incest has been hitherto downplayed: that it is, essentially, an autoerotic act.

Having sex with a first-degree blood relative is like having sex with oneself. It is a Narcissistic act and like all acts Narcissistic, it involves the objectification of the partner. The incestuous Narcissist over-values and then devalues his sexual partner. He is devoid of empathy (cannot see the other’s point of view or put himself in her shoes).

Jacobsen: How is incest traumatic to individuals, regardless of age, gender, or sex?

Vaknin: Incest often involves a power asymmetry and, therefore, implicit or explicit coercion.

Paradoxically and ironically, it is the reaction of society that transforms incest into such a disruptive phenomenon. The condemnation, the horror, the revulsion and the attendant social sanctions interfere with the internal processes and dynamics of the incestuous family. It is from society that the child learns that something is horribly wrong, that he should feel guilty, and that the offending parent is a defective role model. Psychologists, from Albert Ellis to Boris Cyrulnik have noted the critical importance of societal response and stigma in cases of both adult and childhood trauma.

As a direct result, the formation of the child’s Superego is stunted and it remains infantile, ideal, sadistic, perfectionist, demanding and punishing. The child’s Ego, on the other hand, is likely to be replaced by a False Ego version, whose job it is to suffer the social consequences of the hideous act.

To sum up: society’s reactions in the case of incest are pathogenic and are most likely to produce a Narcissistic or a Borderline patient. Dysempathic, exploitative, emotionally labile, immature, and in eternal search for Narcissistic Supply – the child becomes a replica of his incestuous and socially-castigated parent.

If so, why did human societies develop such pathogenic responses? In other words, why is incest considered a taboo in all known human collectives and cultures? Why are incestuous liaisons treated so harshly and punitively?

Freud said that incest provokes horror because it touches upon our forbidden, ambivalent emotions towards members of our close family. This ambivalence covers both aggression towards other members (forbidden and punishable) and (sexual) attraction to them (doubly forbidden and punishable).

Edward Westermarck proffered an opposite view that the domestic proximity of the members of the family breeds sexual repulsion (the epigenetic rule known as the Westermarck effect) to counter naturally occurring genetic sexual attraction. The incest taboo simply reflects emotional and biological realities within the family rather than aiming to restrain the inbred instincts of its members, claimed Westermarck.

Though much-disputed by geneticists, some scholars maintain that the incest taboo may have been originally designed to prevent the degeneration of the genetic stock of the clan or tribe through intra-family breeding (closed endogamy). But, even if true, this no longer applies. In today’s world incest rarely results in pregnancy and the transmission of genetic material. Sex today is about recreation as much as procreation.

Good contraceptives should, therefore, encourage incestuous, couples. In many other species inbreeding or straightforward incest are the norm. Finally, in most countries, incest prohibitions apply also to non-genetically-related people.

It seems, therefore, that the incest taboo was and is aimed at one thing in particular: to preserve the family unit and its proper functioning.

Incest is more than a mere manifestation of a given personality disorder or a paraphilia (incest is considered by many to be a subtype of pedophilia). It harks back to the very nature of the family. It is closely entangled with its functions and with its contribution to the development of the individual within it.

The family is an efficient venue for the transmission of accumulated property as well as information – both horizontally (among family members) and vertically (down the generations). The process of socialization largely relies on these familial mechanisms, making the family the most important agent of socialization by far.

The family is a mechanism for the allocation of genetic and material wealth. Worldly goods are passed on from one generation to the next through succession, inheritance and residence. Genetic material is handed down through the sexual act. It is the mandate of the family to increase both by accumulating property and by marrying outside the family (exogamy).

Clearly, incest prevents both. It preserves a limited genetic pool and makes an increase of material possessions through intermarriage all but impossible.

The family’s roles are not merely materialistic, though.

One of the main businesses of the family is to teach to its members self control, self regulation and healthy adaptation. Family members share space and resources and siblings share the mother’s emotions and attention. Similarly, the family educates its young members to master their drives and to postpone the self-gratification which attaches to acting upon them.

The incest taboo conditions children to control their erotic drive by abstaining from ingratiating themselves with members of the opposite sex within the same family. There could be little question that incest constitutes a lack of control and impedes the proper separation of impulse (or stimulus) from action.

Additionally, incest probably interferes with the defensive aspects of the family’s existence. It is through the family that aggression is legitimately channeled, expressed and externalized. By imposing discipline and hierarchy on its members, the family is transformed into a cohesive and efficient war machine. It absorbs economic resources, social status and members of other families. It forms alliances and fights other clans over scarce goods, tangible and intangible.

This efficacy is undermined by incest. It is virtually impossible to maintain discipline and hierarchy in an incestuous family where some members assume sexual roles not normally theirs. Sex is an expression of power – emotional and physical. The members of the family involved in incest surrender power and assume it out of the regular flow patterns that have made the family the formidable apparatus that it is.

These new power politics weaken the family, both internally and externally. Internally, emotive reactions (such as the jealousy of other family members) and clashing authorities and responsibilities are likely to undo the delicate unit. Externally, the family is vulnerable to ostracism and more official forms of intervention and dismantling.

Finally, the family is an identity endowment mechanism. It bestows identity upon its members. Internally, the members of the family derive meaning from their position in the family tree and its “organization chart” (which conform to societal expectations and norms). Externally, through exogamy, by incorporating “strangers”, the family absorbs other identities and thus enhances social solidarity (Claude Levy-Strauss) at the expense of the solidarity of the nuclear, original family.

Exogamy, as often noted, allows for the creation of extended alliances. The “identity creep” of the family is in total opposition to incest. The latter increases the solidarity and cohesiveness of the incestuous family – but at the expense of its ability to digest and absorb other identities of other family units. Incest, in other words, adversely affects social cohesion and solidarity.

Lastly, as aforementioned, incest interferes with well-established and rigid patterns of inheritance and property allocation. Such disruption is likely to have led in primitive societies to disputes and conflicts – including armed clashes and deaths. To prevent such recurrent and costly bloodshed was one of the intentions of the incest taboo.

The more primitive the society, the more strict and elaborate the set of incest prohibitions and the fiercer the reactions of society to violations. It appears that the less violent the dispute settlement methods and mechanisms in a given culture – the more lenient the attitude to incest.

The incest taboo is, therefore, a cultural trait. Protective of the efficient mechanism of the family, society sought to minimize disruption to its activities and to the clear flows of authority, responsibilities, material wealth and information horizontally and vertically.

Incest threatened to unravel this magnificent creation – the family. Alarmed by the possible consequences (internal and external feuds, a rise in the level of aggression and violence) – society introduced the taboo. It came replete with physical and emotional sanctions: stigmatization, revulsion and horror, imprisonment, the demolition of the errant and socially mutant family cell.

As long as societies revolve around the relegation of power, its sharing, its acquisition and dispensation – there will always exist an incest taboo. But in a different societal and cultural setting, it is conceivable not to have such a taboo. We can easily imagine a society where incest is extolled, taught, and practiced – and out-breeding is regarded with horror and revulsion.

The incestuous marriages among members of the royal households of Europe were intended to preserve the familial property and expand the clan’s territory. They were normative, not aberrant. Marrying an outsider was considered abhorrent.

An incestuous society – where incest is the norm – is conceivable even today.

Two out of many possible scenarios:

1. “The Lot Scenario”

A plague or some other natural disaster decimate the population of planet Earth. People remain alive only in isolated clusters, co-habiting only with their closest kin. Surely incestuous procreation is preferable to virtuous extermination. Incest becomes normative.

Incest is as entrenched a taboo as cannibalism. Yet, it is better to eat the flesh of your dead football team mates than perish high up on the Andes (a harrowing tale of survival recounted in the book and eponymous film, “Alive”).

2. The Egyptian Scenario

Resources become so scarce that family units scramble to keep them exclusively within the clan.

Exogamy – marrying outside the clan – amounts to a unilateral transfer of scarce resources to outsiders and strangers. Incest becomes an economic imperative.

An incestuous society would be either utopian or dystopian, depending on the reader’s point of view – but that it is possible is doubtless.

Jacobsen: Regarding age, gender, and sex, how is incest differentially traumatic?

Vaknin: The ages most reactive to incest are 7-13 and girls seem to be affected more than boys in the long term.

Jacobsen: What are the current facts on childlessness around the globe on a myriad of demographic factors?

Vaknin: Between 10% and 20% of women die childless, depending on the country. About 60% of people live in countries with declining populations (replacement rate under 2.1). We are now 8 billion people on the planet, but we are aging fast and we actually need fresh blood to provide the previous generations with pensions and healthcare. By current projections, the planet’s population will peak around 2080.

Jacobsen: How do individuals of all types, of reproductive age and capacity, make decisions with respect to becoming parents or not, now?

Vaknin: No one really knows. It is a kind of fuzzy urge, according to some. Others attribute it to sociocultural expectations. It is clear that economic and financial considerations are key determinants and predictors of procreation. Uncertainty plays a part as does the proximity to death (the baby booms after major wars).

The advent of cloning, surrogate motherhood, and the donation of gametes and sperm have shaken the traditional biological definition of parenthood to its foundations. The social roles of parents have similarly been recast by the decline of the nuclear family and the surge of alternative household formats.

Why do people become parents in the first place? Do we have a moral obligation to humanity at large, to ourselves, or to our unborn children? Hardly.

Raising children comprises equal measures of satisfaction and frustration. Parents often employ a psychological defense mechanism – known as “cognitive dissonance” – to suppress the negative aspects of parenting and to deny the unpalatable fact that raising children is time consuming, exhausting, and strains otherwise pleasurable and tranquil relationships to their limits.

Not to mention the fact that the gestational mother experiences “considerable discomfort, effort, and risk in the course of pregnancy and childbirth” (Narayan, U., and J.J. Bartkowiak (1999) Having and Raising Children: Unconventional Families, Hard Choices, and the Social Good University Park, PA: The Pennsylvania State University Press, Quoted in the Stanford Encyclopedia of Philosophy).

Parenting is possibly an irrational vocation, but humanity keeps breeding and procreating. It may well be the call of nature. All living species reproduce and most of them parent. Is maternity (and paternity) proof that, beneath the ephemeral veneer of civilization, we are still merely a kind of beast, subject to the impulses and hard-wired behavior that permeate the rest of the animal kingdom?

In his seminal tome, “The Selfish Gene”, Richard Dawkins suggested that we copulate in order to preserve our genetic material by embedding it in the future gene pool. Survival itself – whether in the form of DNA, or, on a higher-level, as a species – determines our parenting instinct. Breeding and nurturing the young are mere safe conduct mechanisms, handing the precious cargo of genetics down generations of “organic containers”.

Yet, surely, to ignore the epistemological and emotional realities of parenthood is misleadingly reductionistic. Moreover, Dawkins commits the scientific faux-pas of teleology. Nature has no purpose “in mind”, mainly because it has no mind. Things simply are, period. That genes end up being forwarded in time does not entail that Nature (or, for that matter, “God”) planned it this way. Arguments from design have long – and convincingly – been refuted by countless philosophers.

Still, human beings do act intentionally. Back to square one: why bring children to the world and burden ourselves with decades of commitment to perfect strangers?

First hypothesis: offspring allow us to “delay” death. Our progeny are the medium through which our genetic material is propagated and immortalized. Additionally, by remembering us, our children “keep us alive” after physical death.

These, of course, are self-delusional, self-serving, illusions.

Our genetic material gets diluted with time. While it constitutes 50% of the first generation – it amounts to a measly 6% three generations later. If the everlastingness of one’s unadulterated DNA was the paramount concern – incest would have been the norm.

As for one’s enduring memory – well, do you recall or can you name your maternal or paternal great great grandfather? Of course you can’t. So much for that. Intellectual feats or architectural monuments are far more potent mementos.

Still, we have been so well-indoctrinated that this misconception – that children equal immortality – yields a baby boom in each post war period. Having been existentially threatened, people multiply in the vain belief that they thus best protect their genetic heritage and their memory.

Let’s study another explanation.

The utilitarian view is that one’s offspring are an asset – kind of pension plan and insurance policy rolled into one. Children are still treated as a yielding property in many parts of the world. They plough fields and do menial jobs very effectively. People “hedge their bets” by bringing multiple copies of themselves to the world. Indeed, as infant mortality plunges – in the better-educated, higher income parts of the world – so does fecundity.

In the Western world, though, children have long ceased to be a profitable proposition. At present, they are more of an economic drag and a liability. Many continue to live with their parents into their thirties and consume the family’s savings in college tuition, sumptuous weddings, expensive divorces, and parasitic habits. Alternatively, increasing mobility breaks families apart at an early stage. Either way, children are not longer the founts of emotional sustenance and monetary support they allegedly used to be.

How about this one then:

Procreation serves to preserve the cohesiveness of the family nucleus. It further bonds father to mother and strengthens the ties between siblings. Or is it the other way around and a cohesive and warm family is conductive to reproduction?

Both statements, alas, are false.

Stable and functional families sport far fewer children than abnormal or dysfunctional ones. Between one third and one half of all children are born in single parent or in other non-traditional, non-nuclear – typically poor and under-educated – households. In such families children are mostly born unwanted and unwelcome – the sad outcomes of accidents and mishaps, wrong fertility planning, lust gone awry and misguided turns of events.

The more sexually active people are and the less safe their desirous exploits – the more they are likely to end up with a bundle of joy (the American saccharine expression for a newborn). Many children are the results of sexual ignorance, bad timing, and a vigorous and undisciplined sexual drive among teenagers, the poor, and the less educated.

Still, there is no denying that most people want their kids and love them. They are attached to them and experience grief and bereavement when they die, depart, or are sick. Most parents find parenthood emotionally fulfilling, happiness-inducing, and highly satisfying. This pertains even to unplanned and initially unwanted new arrivals.

Could this be the missing link? Do fatherhood and motherhood revolve around self-gratification? Does it all boil down to the pleasure principle?

Childrearing may, indeed, be habit forming. Nine months of pregnancy and a host of social positive reinforcements and expectations condition the parents to do the job. Still, a living tot is nothing like the abstract concept. Babies cry, soil themselves and their environment, stink, and severely disrupt the lives of their parents. Nothing too enticing here.

One’s spawns are a risky venture. So many things can and do go wrong. So few expectations, wishes, and dreams are realized. So much pain is inflicted on the parents. And then the child runs off and his procreators are left to face the “empty nest”. The emotional “returns” on a child are rarely commensurate with the magnitude of the investment.

Sherlock Holmes was fond of saying: “If you eliminate the impossible, what is left – however improbable – must be the truth”. People multiply because it provides them with narcissistic supply.

A Narcissist is a person who projects a (false) image unto others and uses the interest this generates to regulate a labile and grandiose sense of self-worth. The reactions garnered by the narcissist – attention, unconditional acceptance, adulation, admiration, affirmation – are collectively known as “narcissistic supply”. The narcissist objectifies people and treats them as mere instruments of gratification.

Infants go through a phase of unbridled fantasy, tyrannical behavior, and perceived omnipotence. An adult narcissist, in other words, is still stuck in his “terrible twos” and is possessed with the emotional maturity of a toddler. To some degree, we are all narcissists. Yet, as we grow, we learn to empathize and to love ourselves and others.

This edifice of maturity is severely tested by newfound parenthood.

Babies evoke in the parent the most primordial drives, protective, animalistic instincts, the desire to merge with the newborn and a sense of terror generated by such a desire (a fear of vanishing and of being assimilated). Neonates engender in their parents an emotional regression.

The parents find themselves revisiting their own childhood even as they care for the newborn. The crumbling of decades and layers of personal growth is accompanied by a resurgence of the aforementioned early infancy narcissistic defenses. Parents – especially new ones – are gradually transformed into narcissists by this encounter and find in their children the perfect sources of narcissistic supply, euphemistically known as love. Really it is a form of symbiotic codependence of both parties.

Even the most balanced, most mature, most psychodynamically stable of parents finds such a flood of narcissistic supply irresistible and addictive. It enhances his or her self-confidence, buttresses self esteem, regulates the sense of self-worth, and projects a complimentary image of the parent to himself or herself. It fast becomes indispensable, especially in the emotionally vulnerable position in which the parent finds herself, with the reawakening and repetition of all the unresolved conflicts that she had had with her own parents.

This is especially true when the parents hold the Victorian attitude that they are and should at all times appear to be infallible, impeccably virtuous, and omniscient. Later in life, the child’s discovery that these representations are false leads to a harrowing, bitter, and traumatic disillusionment coupled with recriminations and regrets aplenty – not unlike the breakups of interpersonal relationships with adult malignant narcissists.

If this theory is true, if breeding is merely about securing prime quality narcissistic supply, then the higher the self confidence, the self esteem, the self worth of the parent, the clearer and more realistic his self image, and the more abundant his other sources of narcissistic supply – the fewer children he will have. These predictions are borne out by reality.

The higher the education and the income of adults – and, consequently, the firmer their sense of self worth – the fewer children they have. Children are perceived as counter-productive: not only is their output (narcissistic supply) redundant, they hinder the parent’s professional and pecuniary progress.

The more children people can economically afford – the fewer they have. This gives the lie to the Selfish Gene hypothesis. The more educated they are, the more they know about the world and about themselves, the less they seek to procreate. The more advanced the civilization, the more efforts it invests in preventing the birth of children. Contraceptives, family planning, and abortions are typical of affluent, well informed societies.

The more plentiful the narcissistic supply afforded by other sources – the lesser the emphasis on breeding. Freud described the mechanism of sublimation: the sex drive, the Eros (libido), can be “converted”, “sublimated” into other activities. All the sublimatory channels – politics and art, for instance – are narcissistic and yield narcissistic supply. They render children superfluous. Creative people have fewer children than the average or none at all. This is because they are narcissistically self sufficient.

The key to our determination to have children is our wish to experience the same unconditional love that we received from our mothers, this intoxicating feeling of being adored without caveats, for what we are, with no limits, reservations, or calculations. This is the most powerful, crystallized form of narcissistic supply. It nourishes our self-love, self worth and self-confidence. It infuses us with feelings of omnipotence and omniscience. In these and other respects, parenthood is a return to infancy.

In the film “Lucy”, a distinguished scientist proposes that organisms in hostile environments opt for “immortality” while those ensconced in friendly habitats “choose” reproduction as species-wide survival strategies. The opposite is true: when the habitat is welcoming and poses no existential threats, organisms adapt by becoming “immortal” (usually via cloning.) Bacteria and viruses come to mind.

It is when the environment turns nasty and brutish – and thereby short – that life-forms engage in diversity-enhancing sexual reproduction. Parenthood is a defense mechanism and an insurance policy against the more ominous and unsavoury aspects of life, not an affirmation of its blessings. It is intended to conquer time itself, to defeat death, and to render our immanent mortality immaterial.

Parenting as a Moral Obligation

Judging by the panoply of pro-family policies, society feels obligated to assist parents in the tasks of parenthood and child-rearing. Parents are perceived to be society’s long arm, its agents, the conduit for its perpetuation and future preservation: genetic as well as cultural. To some extent, the institutions of marriage, family, and socialization (upbringing) are all “national” and public as much as they are private. Indeed, a substantial portion of the hitherto parental decision-making process and a good great number of heretofore domestic decisions have been expropriated by the state: from vaccines to education.

Do we have a moral obligation to become parents? Some would say: yes. There are three types of arguments to support such a contention:

(i) We owe it to humanity at large to propagate the species or to society to provide manpower for future tasks

(ii) We owe it to ourselves to realize our full potential as human beings and as males or females by becoming parents

(iii) We owe it to our unborn children to give them life.

The first two arguments are easy to dispense with. We have a minimal moral obligation to humanity and society and that is to conduct ourselves so as not to harm others. All other ethical edicts are either derivative or spurious. Similarly, we have a minimal moral obligation to ourselves and that is to be happy (while not harming others). If bringing children to the world makes us happy, all for the better. If we would rather not procreate, it is perfectly within our rights not to do so.

But what about the third argument?

Only living people have rights. There is a debate whether an egg is a living person, but there can be no doubt that it exists. Its rights – whatever they are – derive from the fact that it exists and that it has the potential to develop life. The right to be brought to life (the right to become or to be) pertains to a yet non-alive entity and, therefore, is null and void. Had this right existed, it would have implied an obligation or duty to give life to the unborn and the not yet conceived. No such duty or obligation exist.

Jacobsen: If taking the broader concept of eudaimonia or generalized wellbeing as the evaluative criteria, how do parents do worse than the childless?

Vaknin: Parents idealize their children in order to survive the childrearing ordeal. But the drain on resources – emotional, physical, and financial – is very substantial. Parents often do sacrifice themselves and their lives for their children. Having children restricts mobility, impacts career choice, constricts socializaing, and otherwise has an adverse impact on the parental quality of life.

Numerous studies clearly show that childless people are happier and more self-actualized than parents are.

Jacobsen: How do consumerism and capitalism play off one another?

Vaknin: Capitalism is an ideology that serves to justify free markets. It is ostensibly comprised of meritocracy, level playing field (rule of law), and frictionless markets with few market failures.

But capitalism is founded on permanent growth fueled by consumption and the investment required to meet its demands. This is where the paradigm fails as it conflicts head on with scarcity.

Jacobsen: What do consumerism and capitalism replace in the lives of individuals in countries largely beholden to the ideologies?

Vaknin: Consumer goods are love substitutes. Shopping sprees are retail therapy. Consumers are interpellated by advertising and made to equate consumption with happiness.

Consumer goods serve multiple psychological and social needs: relative positioning (as status symbols), anxiolytics (possessing goods reduces anxiety because it is perceived as enhancing self-efficacy and agency), grandiosity-buttressing, and self-soothing, to mention just a few.

Jacobsen: Eventually, how do consumerism and capitalism lead to atomization and loneliness?

Vaknin: They do. Money and the things money can buy displace the pleasure offered by the company or sex of others. We also tend to objectify and commoditize other people, convert them into consumer goods, in effect: we use them and discard them or replace them with newer versions.

This leads to atomization, alienation, and malignant, solipsistic self-sufficiency.

Jacobsen: Why are these three topics the most controversial, in your opinion?

Vaknin: Because we tend to deny them, sweep them under the carpet. Incest is way more widespread than we pretend. Consumerism has uprooted human relations and yet we worship it and its idols, the entrepreneurs. Parenting sucks: one third of mothers suffer from post-partum depression and yet we keep lying to ourselves that the parenting model requires no tinkering (for example by implementing collective care such as in the kibbutzim of yore).

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Prof. Vaknin.

Vaknin: Always much obliged, Scott.

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“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Giftedness and IQ”

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“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Religion”

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“Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Gender Wars”

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“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Psychological Growth”

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“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Structure, Function, Society, and Survival”

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“Prof. Vaknin on Misogyny and Misandry”

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“Prof. Vaknin on Victimization and Victim Identity Movements”

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“Prof. Vaknin on Gut Feelings and Intuition”

(News Intervention: August 9, 2022)

“Free of Will: Illusion or Reality?”

(News Intervention: September 4, 2022)

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“How to Become the REAL YOU (Interview, News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 26, 2022)

“Insider View on Narcissism: What Makes Narcissist Tick (News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 29, 2022)

“Curing Your Narcissist (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 31, 2022)

“Genius or Gifted? IQ and Beyond (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: February 3, 2022)

“Thrive: Your Future Path to Growth and Change (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: May 25, 2022)

Previous Interviews Interpreted by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“Your Narcissist: Madman or Genius? (Based on News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: June 3, 2022)

“Free of Will: Illusion or Reality?”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: September 9, 2022)

Thematically Associated Content Produced Near Previous Interviews by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“Hypervigilance and Intuition as Forms of Anxiety”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: August 7, 2022)

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. Incestuous Trauma, Eudaimonia and Parenthood, and ‘Atoms’ in a Void. November 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/incest-parenthood-atomization

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, November 15). Incestuous Trauma, Eudaimonia and Parenthood, and ‘Atoms’ in a Void. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/incest-parenthood-atomization.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Incestuous Trauma, Eudaimonia and Parenthood, and ‘Atoms’ in a Void. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Incestuous Trauma, Eudaimonia and Parenthood, and ‘Atoms’ in a Void.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/incest-parenthood-atomization.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Incestuous Trauma, Eudaimonia and Parenthood, and ‘Atoms’ in a Void.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (November 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/incest-parenthood-atomization.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Incestuous Trauma, Eudaimonia and Parenthood, and ‘Atoms’ in a Void’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/incest-parenthood-atomization>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Incestuous Trauma, Eudaimonia and Parenthood, and ‘Atoms’ in a Void’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/incest-parenthood-atomization>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Incestuous Trauma, Eudaimonia and Parenthood, and ‘Atoms’ in a Void.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/incest-parenthood-atomization.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Incestuous Trauma, Eudaimonia and Parenthood, and ‘Atoms’ in a Void [Internet]. 2022 Nov; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/incest-parenthood-atomization

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-11-15

Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: November 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: E

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: “Would You Be My Neighbour?”

Individual Publication Date: November 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Herb Silverman

Word Count: 1,285

Image Credit: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

Abstract

Dr. Herb Silverman is the Founder of the Secular Coalition for America, the Founder of the Secular Humanists of the Lowcountry, and the Founder of the Atheist/Humanist Alliance student group at the College of Charleston. He authored Complex variables (1975), Candidate Without a Prayer: An Autobiography of a Jewish Atheist in the Bible Belt (2012) and An Atheist Stranger in a Strange Religious Land: Selected Writings from the Bible Belt (2017). He co-authored The Fundamentals of Extremism: The Christian Right in America (2003) with Kimberley Blaker and Edward S. Buckner, Complex Variables with Applications (2007) with Saminathan Ponnusamy, and Short Reflections on Secularism (2019), Short Reflections on American Secularism’s History and Philosophy (2020), and Short Reflections on Age and Youth (2020). Silverman discusses: civilizations and periods; less effective traditions; rounded ethics; rationality; human wellbeing and species survival; a creative life; alternative meaning; and human fallibility.

Keywords: Amsterdam Declaration, eudaimonia, democracy, Glasgow, Humanism, Humanists International, Scotland, The International Humanist and Ethical Union, universalism, Would You Be My Neighbour?.

Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We have done a number of sessions back-and-forth for some time. It’s been a real pleasure and privilege to keep doing these when the time permits. It’s a rare intergenerational access. We have covered the 1952 and the 2002 Amsterdam declarations and, at the time, the prospective 2022 Amsterdam Declaration. It has been approved by the global democratic body of Humanism, Humanists International, in Glasgow, Scotland. This was the 70^th anniversary of Humanists International, formerly The International Humanist and Ethical Union. I was unable to go because of work at an equestrian facility 6 or 7 days per week. (The event was in competition season.) I wanted to cover this declaration. It opens with noting humanist beliefs are as old as civilization and bears semblances in most societies. Are there any civilizations or periods in which humanist beliefs were simply not present in any way?

Dr. Herb Silverman: I think Humanist beliefs and values have always been present in every society, long before Humanism was defined. Many people have been and are humanists who hadn’t heard of Humanism. I used to be one of those people, as I suspect most Humanists were. Unfortunately, Humanism has not and does not dominate most cultures (think Nazi Germany, and authoritarian regimes today).

Jacobsen: It claims Humanism as a culmination of these traditions of meaning, ethics, and reason. What does Humanism shed from other less effective traditions in the light of this culmination mentioned?

Silverman: Humanism sheds religious beliefs based on so-called “holy” books written thousands of years ago. Many well-meaning religious people pick and choose from their preferred ancient book and ignore embarrassing parts. They haven’t taken one addition step of rejecting their holy book and treating it as any other book where we keep the good parts and reject the bad parts. A friend who supports gay marriage pointed out that that the Bible has countless passages about social justice and only five that condemn homosexuality. He didn’t have a good answer when I asked how many condemnations of homosexuality it would take to reverse his position. Humanists don’t have rules etched in stone. We have principles and values written on paper, and some of our ideas might change through a continuing process of observation, learning, and rethinking. Reason usually hasn’t been present in religious traditions, and our ethics sometimes change as we learn more about how better to interact with and treat others.

Jacobsen: Its main point starts on being ethical. Inherent in its stipulations is the umbrella of eudaimonia, by my reading of it, they have explicit mention of democracy, diversity, individuality, nature, rule of law, peace, and universal legal rights. Ones seemingly more new would be diversity, individuality, and nature or the environment. Although, I haven’t done a systematic review of the three declarations. As you have seen these changes over time in the declarations, what makes this more rounded as a humanist perspective?

Silverman: I think successive declarations have become more rounded because over time Humanists have learned about possible errors we have made and how to correct them, and also about new problems that must be worked on. In the past, Humanists concentrated on humans, the worth and dignity of all human beings and the need for universal human and legal rights. All good things, but this latest incarnation also focuses on all living things that we want to help flourish and avoid suffering. After all, we know that humans are just naked apes. We now realize we must accept responsibility for the impact we have on the rest of the natural world, especially regarding climate change.

Jacobsen: Rational is stipulated as the second point. I like the combo of reason and action. It’s a small touch, but it’s important to make doing something as explicit as possible. What can be impediments to acting on rational and ethical motives?

Silverman: Acting rationally is generally a good thing, but not always. If the only consideration for a business is making a profit, then it’s acting rationally when it charges exorbitant prices for a drug that people need. This is where ethics should trump profit, but I also see potential problems with ethics. For example, some people (usually Bible-based) believe it is unethical for anyone to engage in gay and lesbian sex, and they try to pass laws to make such activity illegal. One person’s ethics can be viewed by others as bigotry or racism.

Jacobsen: As science is an epistemology and technology is ethically neutral, but comes out of discoveries from science, they followed in the footsteps of the other declarations about never using science and technology “callously or destructively”. How important is this note for human wellbeing and the species’ survival?

Silverman: Science and technology can be used wisely by Humanists, while considering human values. I first thought about this as a child when I read about Frankenstein (an example of science and technology gone haywire). We need to use science and technology to enhance human well-being, not simply because we have the technical know-how. Though we have lethal weapons, we should try to avoid using them. We should promote peace and peaceful negotiations whenever we can. I consider myself a pacifist, except for World War II.

Jacobsen: They emphasize something dear to me: The pursuit of a creative life. To me, this is core. I value the pursuit of creative and enjoyable pursuits of open discovery more than most things. For a life of fulfillment, have you found any limits in humanists known to you?

Silverman: I think some Humanists can be too woke for me. Some insist that everybody proclaim which pronoun they identify with, and they criticize those who say “Black” instead of African-Americans. Those who try to restrict people from using language that others might find offensive should know that the antidote to offensive speech is your free speech right to rebut. I think Humanists acting too woke can be counterproductive when we try to bring others into the Humanist camp. I’m also concerned when Humanists publicly criticize other Humanists unfairly. One recent example is when the American Humanist Society took back the 1996 award to Richard Dawkins as Humanist of the Year, mostly because they disliked some of his tweets that they felt demeaned some marginalized groups. I think Dawkins has done more to bring atheism and humanism to countless Americans than any other individual. If the AHA stopped respecting Dawkins, they could just not give him any more awards. Such public rebuke, in my mind, was unconscionable.

Jacobsen: The declaration ends on a fourth point. This is a shortlist, but comprehensive: ethics, rationality, fulfillment, and alternative meaning (signification) and purpose. They mention Humanism as an antidote to “dogmatic religion, authoritarian nationalism, tribal sectarianism, and selfish nihilism.” This is a full list. The demands on oneself are high with Humanism, but humane. That’s what I gather from this. The building of the better world is a recognition of both human refinement by oneself and others, and human fallibility to make mistakes and then to work to be better the next time around. How do you view this fourth point, especially in relation to the other points about ethics, rationality, and fulfillment?

Silverman: I especially agree with the point that all humans, including Humanists, are fallible. That is why we try to learn from our mistakes, exchange ideas with other Humanists and people who are not (yet) Humanists. We can learn from others and sometimes change our own ideas. I like when this happens to me. By sharing our values with others, I think we can help build a better world.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Silverman.

Silverman: Thank you.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022. November 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, November 15). Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (November 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022 [Internet]. 2022 Nov; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-11-15

The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1)

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: November 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: E

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: “The Tsimshian”

Individual Publication Date: November 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Corey Moraes

Word Count: 3,228

Image Credit: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

Abstract

Corey Moraes is Tsimshian. He was born April 14, 1970, in Seattle, Washington. He has worked in both the U.S.A. and in Canada. He has painted canoes for Vision Quest Journeys (1997). He was featured in Totems to Turquoise (2005), Challenging Traditions (2009), and Continuum: Vision and Creativity on the Northwest Coast (2009). He earned the 2010 Aboriginal Traditional Visual Art Award and Grant from the Canada Council for the Arts. His trademark artistic works are Coastal Tsimshian style with gold jewellery, limited edition prints, masks, silver jewellery, and wood carvings. Moraes discusses: some personal and family background; proficient in carving; production of art; the observations of youth; the ovoid and the U form; the more advanced forms; some of the feedback; longevity in a piece; and a piece speaks to you.

Keywords: Canada, carving, Corey Moraes, Indigenous, Native American, ovoid form, Seattle, The Tsimshian, U form, United States of America.

The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1)

*Interview conducted on February 10, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, let’s start from the top. What are some personal and family background? Was there a bit of artistic license when young?

Corey Moraes: You want to know where I was born, stuff like that.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Moraes: I was born in Seattle in 1970 into an impoverished, single-mother structure. My father was never really there for me. He was murdered a week before I turned 4-years-old. By the time I was 5-years-old, I witnessed my mother almost died from an injury by one of her many boyfriends that she had. We bounced around from as south as California. Until, we settled in Surrey by the time I was 8-years-old. I was here until I was 30 before moving back down to Seattle. It was supposed to be for a apprenticing totem pole carving. I ended up meeting my now wife and having four children. If you go back to my being raised up here, my mom always tried to keep some constants in all the many moves that we had to meet growing up. One of the things that she tried to keep constant was to, at least, have some sort of Native representation, where there was a drawing or something mass produced. She always encouraged me to have pride in our culture and in our background. When I was about 10-years-old, she was dating this Haida jeweller and Argillite carver named Pat Dixon. Pat would complete his works in our little apartment. That’s where I got my real first exposure to work being created. It fascinated me to see what I had normally grown up with, which was called form design. Ovoid and U form being constructed almost like Lego. Until, you create some kind of character or creature. I saw him having these designs just flow out of him onto the sketch pad or pieces of silver, or pieces of black shale, also commonly known as Argillite.

But as with any of the relationships with my mother, it always ended in violence. He wasn’t around for too long. While he was there, I believe that the seed was planted, at the very least, which bloomed much later. I didn’t become completely interested in our art form to the point of pursuing it, until my mid-20s. Before that, a couple of stalled attempts at a post-secondary career, where I learned computer technician(-ship) and telecommunications. It wasn’t for me. After that, I thought, “I want to try something more grassroots and give back something to my neighbourhood, and my culture. So, I wanted to be a drug and alcohol counsellor.” I took training in that. It has a high burnout rate. The turning point for putting my full attention into the art came when I was literally floating down the creek in an inner tube. One of my mentors, I confessed to them that this counselling that I was doing was far too taxing on me, emotionally. It came from the finest of intentions. It wasn’t working. They said, “There are more ways that you can give back to the culture and to your community than just as a counsellor.” It encouraged me to do what I eventually settled on, which was fine art. For the most part, I am mostly self-taught.

Jacobsen: How long does training take to become proficient in carving?

Moraes: I think it depends on your enthusiasm and whether or not you’re doing it part-time or full-time. I refused to get a job despite my present girlfriend-at-the-time’s lamenting. At any given time, I had more value in a finished work that would pay for all of my bills at the present time, but things weren’t selling. You have to convince the market that you are serious about putting out consistent work. That takes, at least, a couple of years for people to even begin to know your name. Yes, a lot of sleepless nights, a lot of missed bills, creditors chasing me around. I think it is a proving ground for how much this means to you. At least, back in the ‘90s, it has changed dramatically since then, since the advent of social media and the internet. I can’t remember the last time I walked out of a gallery with a paper cheque in my hand. Things are done electronically.

Jacobsen: What does a consistency in production of art do for one’s career? What do periods of inconsistency of production of art do for one’s career in those periods of inconsistency or consistency?

Moraes: By “consistency”, what are you referring to: the quality of the work or the output of the product?

Jacobsen: I would say, “Both.” Both the quality and the quantity at reasonable expectations for a sustainable life.

Moraes: I have done both in my career. I have put out so much work consistently, several pieces a month. That I would have some orders say, “I don’t know how you do it. Because you have young kids at home.” I would say, “I do it because I have young kids at home. I got bills to pay.” The opposite end of the spectrum, I have put out very minimal work over the span or two or three years. To the point where the galleries begin to get a little more curious, “Is he coming to the end of his career?” They almost become masochistic in their approach to me. Because I don’t approach galleries the way that I used to; I used to pander to the audience, the galleries, and their needs. I don’t anymore. I think that speaks to 20+ years, coming up on 24 years here now, of a wide range of artwork that can all be drawn back to the same stylistic impression of what it is that I do. Whether I do it in silver, wood, airbrush, watercolor, acrylic painting, oil painting, puppetry, animation, illustration, all of it looks like it has come from my hands. None of it has strayed too far from what is my artistic integrity and my vision for what it is that I would like to see exist far beyond my lifespan.

Jacobsen: How have you taken some of the observations of youth, as well as some independent research into your own heritage, to inform some of your more prominent artistic productions? In other words, seeing the evolution of that over time.

Moraes: You’re referring to “youth”, as in what?

Jacobsen: So, you were mentioning, for instance, the Haida jeweller, seeing others in your life, as you are developing as a younger artist, kind of do their own art who are veteran in the field and kind of transitioning over time as you are gaining more knowledge, and incorporating that in your productions.

Moraes: So, you’re talking about the evolution of the art form.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Moraes: When you’re beginning to learn this form, this goes back you had asked about proficiency and how long it takes to become proficient. This art form is based on 2 or 3 really basic elements: the ovoid, the U form, some people say the S shapes. It consists of these really basic elements. These really basic elements may be words. They are an alphabet. They create words. As you get better, you create sentences. As you get better, you create paragraphs. At which point, you get to the point where I am at, where you can create a long poem or a short novel of sorts. As I became more proficient in the language of this Form Line, I have been able to stretch the discourse of what this art represents, where it resides in the timeline. My challenge, now that I know that I can create these long phrases and poems, and short novella of Form Line, is to go into other directions much as a writer might. I have my superhero genre that I focus on. I have a writer help me with the storyline on that now. I have children’s material/direction that I go and work with. I have the very classic style that I do. I also have a very almost New Age style of work that I do that incorporates contemporary, almost pop culture, elements. On top of all of this, one of my pet projects is kind of a cross-pollination of pan-Pacific Rim innovation, which, basically, means I see a lot of core similarities between ancient Japanese artworks and classic Northwest Coast style. By bridging these two together and cross-pollinating them, I have come up with something that looks like it has always been there. That exists of a kind, doesn’t look strained, doesn’t look forced. That’s kind of where I am at now. I have connected all of these threads. I have gathered them up with both hands and am weaving a fabric now. The past and present, and what I want to see in the future.

Jacobsen: Why are the ovoid and the U form the fundamental characters – the line forms?

Moraes: It has been widely investigated and disputed over all of contemporary society works, where stuff originated from. You can look at it from an anthropological point of view. You can look at it from a scholastic or even an artistic point of view. But I think it comes back to spirituality. One of the best explanations I heard came from a dear art from of mine who passed away, Beau Dick. One of the first times that I ever met him was when I came up here from Seattle. I had to do a photo shoot for a book/art show called “Totems to Turquoise.” This is something that began as a cultural exchange between New Mexico turquoise and silver artists cut into Haida Gwaii and seeing out how art and jewellery is presented there. The Haida Gwaii artists came down to Santa Fe to see how their art was fabricated. I was there with a bunch of other artists waiting their turn. Beau came up to me. I was a wearing a hat woven by a Haida weaver that I painted. The way that I painted it was all-encompassing. It wasn’t just something that was slapped on like a patch. It took up the full space of the hat. He recognized that right away as a classic. He knew who I was from other publications. He is talking to me and gushing about the complexities of the Form Line on this hat. He says, “Do you know where these forms came from?” I said, “I have heard various stories. What do you have?” He said, “We have all heard of the Great Flood. The Great Flood affected a lot of our peoples. When it receded, it took a lot of our art away. It left a lot in its wake. One of the things that was on the beaches were these forms. He saw the ovoid here. He saw the U form over them. These were given by the Creator to us. It was a way for us to rebuild what was taken away from us.” So, I’ve always liked that explanation because loss came another gift. That gift was the ability to convey art, mythology, to covent our family histories through this new form.

Jacobsen: What are some of the main forms that you’re portraying in the more advanced forms? Once you’ve gone from single letters to use your analogy of writing to these poems and short stories, what are the representations there?

Moraes: What I really want to convey when I am doing a classic design, like a box design or a chest design, I want the people to be able to let their eye dance along with the rhythm that I am creating with this art form. A lot of people have described my art style as almost sensual compared to other artists. There is a very on-purpose direction to my art. But it is not done in a clumsy manner. It is not done in a way that is offensive. It is very appealing to the eye. This is what I have been told. I think what I am trying to get across is that you can reach a level of art form, of creation, where time almost stands still. When you’re standing in front of a piece of my work, I want that piece of work to draw you in, to make you forget about whatever it was that was going on before that piece. I want you to revisit the piece that I create at different times throughout your life if you happen to own it. I want you to see different things every time that you come to that piece. In my vision, what I am trying to create this form, I want it to be almost multilingual. I want you to see something different every time that you look at it.

Jacobsen: What has been some of the feedback on those?

Moraes: I can tell you a quick story of this piece that I did. It was based upon this song. This Japanese artist was in this movie Kill Bill Vol. I, which I just watched again, recently. It is called “Battle without Honour or Humanity”. When I hear this, this song is instrumental. I see a very specific, vibrant image in my head. I try to portray this on the panel that I have created over a few months. It was a double-layered panel. The basis of it, there was a Form Line design on the bottom with the background of a leaf. In the forefront, there was the yellow cedar that I carved in what the sculptural thickness would allow. To complete this complexity of the panel, I incorporated a dorsal fin from the killer whale. I had to make, I think, 186 varied-sized pieces of wooden dowel for the suckers for the octopus to be put onto the tentacles. Anyways, I completed this piece. It sat in Douglas Reynold’s gallery for months. Doug told me this story about this millionaire from Alberta who comes through regularly with his kids. They rent a limo from the airport. On the way to Whistler, they always stop at Douglas Reynold’s gallery. These sons saw this panel for the first time. They couldn’t stop staring at it. His dad brushed it off and went about other business and a bunch of bigger artists. They came back through again some time later. He asked, “The art piece,” as they rotate the art pieces in this gallery, “Where is that octopus and killer whale?” They had to go into their storage and pull it out for him to stare at again. This went on for several trips, Doug said. His father, the millionaire collector, never thought much about this until so many visits went by that he thought, “He is really attached to looking at this art piece” [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Right [Laughing].

Moraes: He stopped what he was doing. He looked at the piece and just from the infatuation that his young son had with this piece. He decided to connect. He purchased it. To me, it was a changing of the guard. There is this passing of past collectors; that are downsizing their world now. Their kids have moved out. They are starting to get rid of large art pieces. These are the Baby Boomers. The next generation that is growing up behind and who are coming into their own now. That’s what I believe his son represents: that generation that sees something different in the art. A lot of the people have said that my art is ahead of its time. That one particular panel didn’t speak immediately to that father because his head is wrapped up in the art collecting period from the late ‘60s up until about the ‘90s, about a 30-year span. Whereas, his son’s head is more towards what the future of this art can represent. I believe that piece, when it is looked back upon maybe 10/25/30/40 years from now, will be seen as a piece that spoke to the younger generation more than the Baby Boomers.

Jacobsen: How do you ensure longevity in a piece? Or is that even a reasonable question?

Moraes: I like to believe my pieces will continue to persist long after I am gone. There are times that I’ve started pieces and not completed them. I have put them away for 7 years or more. It has to speak to me. I’ve tried to do work that is much more shallow. I can’t. It fights me. I’ll end up stabbing my hand by accident. I’ll slip. I am arguing with the piece. I have to be at one with the piece for lack of a better term. Sometimes, it is this unspoken dialogue that “this doesn’t belong here. This has to stay. This has to be dug deeper.” When it all works well, sometimes, my best pieces are kind of the most painful to get out because with jewellery, for example. If I have to do all kinds of hand-finished tacking, and if it feels like it is starting to aggravate me, I get agitated because I will want it to be done. That’s when I know I am on the right track because, now, I am out of my comfort zone. When I out of my comfort zone, I know this piece will speak because I am putting a lot more work into it than usual. Those turn out, for me, to be some pretty special pieces, I believe, have the potential to speak as strongly if not more loudly down the road.

Jacobsen: What is the feeling when a piece speaks to you, at first?

Moraes: The only term I can give is that they are kind of like my children. There is a joy there for being honoured enough to have that connect with my hands. At the same time, it is kind of jarring to realize that, “Yes, I am self-taught. How did this happen?” But it is starting to make more sense now; that I’ve had actual children and the very last one is almost scary to me. Because he’s just like me. But he is me who still has a father, right? He’s not me whose father was murdered before he turned four, which really set up some huge potholes down the road in my life, growing up without a father. So, he has a father. Not only does he have a father, his father is artistic. And his father’s artisticness has passed on to him in spades. He’s far more talented than I was at that age. He is far more grounded than I was at that age. As long as I am still living and breathing, I will continue to foster these things in him. I know that he is going to be an artist out of the four children that we made together. One of them has come out as very, very heavily creative. That makes sense to me now, because, before this, I wouldn’t see any connective thread to the creative force. But it was there. I just didn’t know how to explain it. Now, I can, because he’s clearly part of me, clearly part of my wife. He’s most, obviously, going to be a creative force to reckon with in 10, 15, 20 years.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1). November 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, November 15). The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (November 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1) [Internet]. 2022 Nov; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright © Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-11-08

Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1)

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: A

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: None

Individual Publication Date: November 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Mizuki Tomaiwa

Word Count: 976

Image Credit: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

Abstract

Mizuki Tomaiwa was born in 2000 in Japan. She is an American college student with an interest in the biomedical field, psychiatry, and gifted education. She respects Leonardo da Vinci, Bach, Liszt, and her parents. She earned an I.Q. of 183+ (S.D. 16) on the Cattell CFIT. Tomaiwa discusses: growing up; extended self; family background; youth with friends; education; purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence; extreme reactions to geniuses; greatest geniuses; genius and a profoundly gifted person; necessities for genius or the definition of genius; work experiences and jobs held; job path; myths of the gifted; God; science; tests taken and scores earned; range of the scores; ethical philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; worldview; meaning in life; source of meaning; afterlife; life; and love.

Keywords: Bach, Cattell CFIT, God, intelligence tests, IQ, Japan, Leonardo da Vinci, Liszt, Mizuki Tomaiwa, OLYMPIQ Society.

Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1)

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?

Mizuki Tomaiwa: When I was younger, I often disagreed with other classmates.

But my father was always fair in discussing my opinion versus other opinions. My mother affirmed me.

Jacobsen: Have these stories helped provide a sense of an extended self or a sense of the family legacy?

Tomaiwa: They will definitely be useful in the near future.

Jacobsen: What was the family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Tomaiwa: My family, including myself, are Buddhists, but I can’t say that our faith is strong. We enjoy Halloween and Christmas.

As for geography, our house is surrounded by nature, and we often hear the singing of the Japanese bush warbler.

The language in the home is Japanese. I use English at school.

Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and an adolescent?

Tomaiwa: Unfortunately, my adolescence was a sad one.

I was constantly trying to fit in with others and had to suppress my outpouring of curiosity. Every time I tried to match with my classmates, my heart was worn out.

I had no schoolmates with whom I could talk. I always felt alone.

In Japanese schools, everyone has to be the same. Talent and individuality tend to be unwelcome. However, according to Japan’s Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology, more than now, expert discussions are being held to accommodate individual abilities, such as math and other skills.

Jacobsen: What have been some professional certifications, qualifications, and trainings earned by you?

Tomaiwa: I have a certificate of English proficiency in Japan.

And I graduated from ESL at Langara College in Canada. This is the English proficiency equivalent to university entrance.

Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?

Tomaiwa: I occasionally come across a test that is exciting to solve.

Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?

Tomaiwa: Around February 2021.

Jacobsen: When you think of the ways in which the geniuses of the past have either been mocked, vilified, and condemned if not killed, or praised, flattered, platformed, and revered, what seems like the reason for the extreme reactions to and treatment of geniuses? Many alive today seem camera shy – many, not all.

Tomaiwa: The frog in the well that knows the blue sky tries to get out.

The one without knowledge is the one who scoffs at it.

Jacobsen: Who seems like the greatest geniuses in history to you?

Tomaiwa: Leonardo da Vinci.

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?

Tomaiwa: Deep love for all things.

And sometimes creative.

Jacobsen: Is profound intelligence necessary for genius?

Tomaiwa: I believe that geniuses connect those dots in the future by learning a wide range of fields through intelligence. Many dots make ideas creative.

Jacobsen: What have been some work experiences and jobs held by you?

Tomaiwa: Work as a tutor teaching math, English, science, Japanese, and social studies.

Work taking care of children after school.

Jacobsen: Why pursue this particular job path?

Tomaiwa: For several reasons, being in contact with children reminds me of my childhood.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses? Those myths that pervade the cultures of the world. What are those myths? What truths dispel them?

Tomaiwa: It is a myth that geniuses can do anything and rarely make mistakes.

All people have different orientations and interests.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?

Tomaiwa: Just as people like beautiful flowers, God also likes people with beautiful souls, so those who have them leave this world early.

Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?

Tomaiwa: For me, it is a thought process.

The process of questioning, trial and error, and then coming up with an answer is important to me.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations) for you?

Tomaiwa: Cattell CFIT (sd 16) 183+.

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Tomaiwa: Remember to be grateful for the services you receive, even if you have to pay for them.

Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Tomaiwa: History is driven by people’s anger and frustration.

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Tomaiwa: Governments that do not invest in education will not grow.

Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes some sense to you, even the most workable sense to you?

Tomaiwa: No study is considered valuable from the start. It is important to keep exploring.

Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Tomaiwa: Every person I’ve met has been a teacher in my life.

Jacobsen: What provides meaning in life for you?

Tomaiwa: Life is challenging, but that is what makes it meaningful and interesting.

Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?

Tomaiwa: Meaning may be influenced by its surroundings and it may have it’s own. They depend on each other.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, why, and what form? If not, why not?

Tomaiwa: I believe that when our souls are gradually purified by reincarnation, we will be reborn into something higher by the approval of God.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the mystery and transience of life?

Tomaiwa: It is like the dreams you have when you sleep, no matter how happy or sad they are, they will end someday.

Jacobsen: What is love to you?

Tomaiwa: It is the most precious thing of all.

And love remains long after the death of a loved one.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1). November 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, November 8). Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (November 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1) [Internet]. 2022 Nov; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-09-22

Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: E

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use”

Individual Publication Date: September 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Curtis Boehm

Word Count: 637

Image Credit: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

Abstract

Curtis Boehm is another son – alongside Jeremy Boehm – of the founder of Wagner Hills, Helmut Boehm. Boehm discusses: the story; main methodologies; experiences of individuals coming into recover; experiences of individuals helping those in recovery; evidence-based treatment; spirituality or religion; the “Higher Power” concept; the most tragic story; and the most heartwarming, uplifting story.

Keywords: British Columbia, Canada, Curtis Boehm, God, Jeremy Boehm, Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use, recovery, theist, Township of Langley, Wagner Hills.

Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was the start of the story in finding recovery for you?

Curtis Boehm: I do not have a personal story of recovery. The start of my awareness of recovery was observing my father’s work, as he counseled men in recovery at a center he founded.

Jacobsen: What seem like the main methodologies utilized in recovery systems in Canada?

Boehm: In my experience, there are a handful of approaches:

Harm reduction aims to provide basic safety to those in active addiction, through access to safe injection sites and shelter, and aims to be a stepping stone towards more lasting levels of recovery.

Voluntary, informal groups such as Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, and Celebrate Recovery provide support for those seeking change in their lives. These are low-commitment, low-cost approaches to helping people in recovery to continue but are less effective for those trapped in active addiction

Residential programs require much more commitment and offer much greater help to those seeking holistic recovery. These are much more expensive to offer.

Jacobsen: What are common themes amongst or between the experiences of individuals coming into recovery?

Boehm: Common themes include self-defeating attitudes and behaviour, hopelessness, desperation, and suicidal ideation. It is also common for our men to not be able to communicate their feelings accurately or easily.

There is a willingness to “try anything” to get better.

There is often a willingness to surrender to others’ guidance since the self-determined path has not worked.

Jacobsen: What are common themes amongst or between the experiences of individuals helping those in recovery?

Boehm: Common themes include the desire to show compassion, the desire to relate with the experiences of the individual, and the communication of affirmation that a person has come to the point where they are ready to seek help.

Also there is often a sense of purpose or calling to the work of guiding those in recovery.

Jacobsen: How much does evidence-based treatment play a role in Canadian treatment?

Boehm: I am not familiar with this term. I can’t speak to it’s use in the Canadian context.

Jacobsen: How much does spirituality or religion play a role in Canadian treatment?

Boehm: The most effective recovery programs are faith based. My experience is that programs that invite those in recovery to examine their whole lives, paying attention to physical, emotional, and spiritual layers, are the most likely to lead to enduring recovery. The deeper questions behind the patterns of behaviour also have more to do with the inner spiritual realities of a person’s life than with the events or bahaviours.

Jacobsen: What is the role of the “Higher Power” concept, or even the concept of God, in some treatment systems in Canada?

Boehm: My experience has been working within a faith based, Christian recovery program. We encourage those in recovery to turn control of their lives over to God, surrendering their judgement and relying on God’s character and activity to bring them out of the destructive cycle of behaviour. God is a life-giving, unconditionally loving, forgiving master.

Jacobsen: What has been the most tragic story known to you?

Boehm: I have known several young men who died after overdosing.

Jacobsen: For a happy ending, what has been the most heartwarming, uplifting story of success in treatment known to you?

Boehm: There is a 26 year old man who has nearly completed 12 months of his recovery at the center where I work. His joy and success have been heartwarming and uplifting. He is going to represent the center on an upcoming fundraising trip. Also, he has taken on a level of responsibility in his role as a kitchen assistant and is rising to the challenges presented to him. His success is a really encouraging part of how I have come to think about the center where I work.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God. September 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, September 8). Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (September 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God [Internet]. 2022 Sep; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-09-21

Humanism and Witchcraft/Tsav Allegations in Benue, Central Nigeria

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: African Freethinker

Journal Founding: November 1, 2018

Frequency: Once (1) per year (Circa January 1, 2023)

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 1

Issue Numbering: 1

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: September 21, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Dr. Leo Igwe

Author(s) Bio: Dr. Leo Igwe is the Founder of the Humanist Association of Nigeria, the Founder & CEO of Advocacy for Alleged Witches, and the Convener of the Decade of Activism Against Witch Persecution in Africa: 2020-2030.

Word Count: 874

Image Credit: Leo Igwe.

Keywords: Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Africans, atheists, Benue, Leo Igwe, LGBTQ, Nigerians, Tsav, western anthropologists, witch persecutions.

*Please see the footnotes and bibliography after the article.*

Humanism and Witchcraft/Tsav Allegations in Benue, Central Nigeria

The Advocacy for Alleged Witches (AfAW) is organizing its first seminar on witch persecution and superstitions in Benue Central Nigeria. Benue is a hotbed of witchcraft imputation and witch hunting because belief in the occult force called Tsav among the Tivs is pervasive. To properly situate this historic event, a local advocate explains the significance of the meeting. He said: “This event is very important because it would allow us to understand the different perceptions of witchcraft and the various ways that alleged witches are persecuted in Benue state. AfAW is a humanist organization that campaigns to end witch persecution in Africa by 2030. As the advocate noted, “Witchcraft belief is a big issue in Benue! Everyone believes in it, and anything can be linked to it. As kids, it was normal to tag along this path, imbibe these superstitions and live in deep fear of occult forces”.

Witchcraft is popular and entrenched because people are socialized to believe, and not question witchcraft claims from childhood. And as adults, they find it difficult to abandon the superstitious mindset. People pass on these irrational beliefs to their children, perpetuating the cycle of ignorance, unreason, and misconceptions. These misconceptions are not innocuous sentiments; they drive abusive treatment of suspected witches. Incidentally, it is not everyone that is a target witchcraft accusation and witch persecution. A local advocate further states, “The most vulnerable, the people most likely to be accused of witchcraft, are the elderly. Aged people, who are perceived to have lived long while losing family members, children or grand children; those considered different/unusual, like those with autism, including atheists and members of the LGBTQ community”.

In Benue, alleged witches are believed to cause illness, death, and accidents. They are subjected to horrific abuses. A local source told AfAW that the “accused are often treated as horribly as can be imagined, but this depends on the scale of social frailty and vulnerability. A person who has people who could stand up and defend them would be less at risk than those who seem to have none like widows or orphans. When accusations originate from within the family, the accused are worse off, the support base weakens and the protection cover quickly disappears. The stigma and name soiling do much damage. They make suspected witches lose their humanity”. Witch hunting ended in Europe centuries ago but this wild and vicious phenomenon rages in Africa. An advocate in Benue explains why this is the case: “Witch persecution persists because religions, traditional, Christian and Islamic use witchcraft claims to manipulate people and attract followership and patronage. Knowing the cultural depths of this supposed evil, there are mass healing centers and crusades where people go. In these places, people want to hear that an uncle or mother-in-law or a husband’s girlfriend is the cause of the instability in their lives and that something can be done about it. Religion feeds that want”. Witchcraft belief is used to scapegoat individuals; incite persecution and violence against an innocent family or community member. In a recent incident, some youths attacked an elderly woman after consulting a local diviner who confirmed that the woman bewitched a young man who had cancer. Angry youths attacked and destroyed the woman’s house.

Family members were able to rescue the woman and took her to a safe location. In many cases, accused persons are not lucky. They are tortured to death or lynched by an angry mob. In some parts of Benue, witch hunters strangle or stone accused persons to death. They act with impunity. These atrocities continue because perpetrators are seldom punished. Victims of witch persecution and their families often reign to their fate because of the notion that justice would not be served or that efforts to ensure justice would lead to further victimization. The police expect victims and their relatives to come and lodge complaints before they could intervene in cases of witch persecution. Even when complaints have been lodged, the police often expect the complainants to bribe or mobilize them before they could arrest the suspects or investigate the incident. In situations where the cases are charged to court, the matter suffers so many adjournments. Victims or their families are forced to abandon their case.

On what could be done to end witchcraft accusations and witch persecution in Benue, a local source said: “Education could play a great part in changing the mindset of the people. Nowadays, any sickness is presumed to be inflicted through witchcraft. Maybe, people need to understand that there are other causes of diseases and misfortune that can be verifiable through scientific testing”.

Indeed, education could loosen the grip of witchcraft and other superstitions on the minds of people in Benue. But the tragedy is that educated Nigerians nay Africans are part of the problem. Many educated Africans are witchcraft apologists. They defend and justify witchcraft as a codification of African science, philosophy, and logic. Like western anthropologists, educated Africans espouse an exoticized notion of African witchcraft. They propagate the stereotypic idea that, unlike westerners, witchcraft is not a form of superstition; that witchcraft is a demonstration of black power. This mistaken, prejudicial misrepresentation of African witchcraft will be keenly challenged, interrogated, and examined at this event in Benue state.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-09-21

Differing Opinions Between Muslim Clerics and Born Again Christian Pastor Over the Hijab of the President of the United Republic of Tanzania

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: African Freethinker

Journal Founding: November 1, 2018

Frequency: Once (1) per year (Circa January 1, 2023)

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 1

Issue Numbering: 1

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: September 21, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Isakwisa Amanyisye Lucas Mwakalonge

Author(s) Bio: Lucas is Assistant Editor African Freethinker/www.in-sightpublishing.com (Tanzania), a Lawyer, an Advocate of the High Court of Tanzania, a Notary Public Officer and Commissioner for Oaths.

Word Count: 462

Image Credit: Isakwisa Amanyisye Lucas Mwakalonge.

Keywords: Born Again Christian, Faustin Munishi, hijab, Isakwisa Amanyisye Lucas Mwakalonge, Muslim, Samia Suluhu Hasan, United Republic of Tanzania.

*Please see the footnotes and bibliography after the article.*

Differing Opinions Between Muslim Clerics and Born Again Christian Pastor Over the Hijab of the President of the United Republic of Tanzania

Dar es Salaam, Tanzania – East Africa.

(WhatsApp +255 766 151395/E-mail: isamwaka01@gmail.com.)

It has been a trending topic of discussion in social media in Tanzania as a result of the action of one Pentecostal church evangelist based in Nairob,i Kenya named as Faustin Munishi, in one of his preaching services through You Tube channel. Whereby, he did advise the president of the United Republic of Tanzania, her excellence Samia Suluhu Hasan, to stop her habit of using hijab to cover her head and hair while she executes her daily official duties. According to pastor Munishi, hijab is a symbol of Islamic religion, therefore, as a president, the act of using hijab to cover her head while performing presidential duties, it is like she is using such presidential platform to promote and spread Islamic religion. Furthermore, pastor Munishi stated that doing so is not good because the United Republic of Tanzania is a secular state. He additional urged that though people in Tanzania have a choice in faith and what to believe, but when a person is chosen to serve in the highest post in the nation like the presidency it is not advisable to put on some kind of clothes which may in one way or another link that particular individual to a certain religion or denomination because such situation may lead some citizens to start thinking that such concerned religion is being promoted through such highest office in the nation, while it is not the case.

On the other side, Muslim clerics in Tanzania in various occasions have come out and defending the habit of the president of covering her head with hijab. They insist that it is an Islamic good tradition that a woman head must be covered. The Muslim clerics in Tanzania encourages the president to continue to adhere to good Islamic standards which require women to cover their heads and hair with hijab.

All in all in these two opposing views, it can be settled that both sides have utilized their constitutional and human rights of freedom of expression be it to evangelist Faustin Munishi or the muslim clerics of Tanzania, and the right to freedom of religion and belief as well as the right of manifestation on what someone believes, together with the side of her excellence madam president, if hijab is part of Islamic teachings and instructions to believers, then madam president has all the rights to use it at whatever time she want because she is a muslim. Therefore, madam president has the right to manifest her religion at any place and at any time as her religion instructs.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-09-15

Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2)

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: E

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use”

Individual Publication Date: September 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Jeremy Boehm

Word Count: 2,523

Image Credit: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

Abstract

Jeremy Boehm is a lover of music, art, and sports, and loves to spend time with his young family and animals on his hobby farm on Vancouver Island. Jeremy has a BA with theological and youth ministry emphasis from Calgary and furthered his education in counselling with focus on addiction for a second career in supporting those with substance use disorders. Boehm discusses: finding recovery; main methodologies; experiences of individuals coming into recovery; experiences of individuals helping those in recovery; evidence-based treatment; spirituality or religion; the “Higher Power” concept; most tragic story known; and heartwarming, uplifting story.

Keywords: British Columbia, Canada, God, Jeremy Boehm, Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use, recovery, theist, Township of Langley, Wagner Hills.

Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2)

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was the start of the story in finding recovery for you?

Jeremy Boehm: After a career as a minister for fifteen years, I had the choice to relocate to another job, or seek local work. The area was perfect for our family, and relocating pointed towards uprooting the life of our children. Instead, I brainstormed other fields, and considered the environment I had grown up in, at Wagner Hills in Langley, which is a therapeutic Christian community for the healing of those with addictions. Working in recovery introduced me to people who seemed stripped of the pretense, and social-status devices in the culture around me. I was enthralled with the authentic vulnerability, and bravery of individuals who felt they had lost everything. As I feverishly studied the neurology of addiction, and the habit-structures, reward-structures, and motivation-structures of the brain, I interacted with fresh and honest people who challenged my status quo. I had decided to end my use of caffeine a year previous, and discovered just how challenging daily-cravings, triggers, social pressure, and reinventing my life, minus caffeine, could be. While embarrassed to admit how challenging this struggle was, in light of the much more difficult-to-control effects of street substances, I began to understand the commonality that all people can relate to in a struggle with change, unhealthy habits, motivation. Then as I identified how other parts of my life were out of order, I began to see that nearly all of us can relate to putting too much importance on the wrong things in our lives. When we examine these things that we place too much importance on, it can be a struggle to redefine fundamental meaning in their absence.

With my new career, to educate myself, I read the ‘Big book’, and was shocked at how important the content is for our culture, so many years after its publication. I began to lose my prejudice against ‘AA’, and to lose my former assumptions about addiction. I learned that trauma was the common denominator in people I counselled, and that ‘alcoholism’ was not solved by improving self-control. I also began to learn evidence-based practices, to supplement the old-fashioned counselling I had seen practiced in churches, so my college-days love of psychology returned. However, I began to become disenchanted with what I began to understand as a cognitive solution for some who identified themselves as ‘insane’ in their addiction. From a neurological point of view, the damage substances like alcohol caused in long-term use, seemed to remove any hope in the power of a cognitive solution, even if there was one, since the neural damage from prolonged use could be devastating. At the same time, I began to recognize the value in rational emotive behavioural therapy for myself, and in mindfulness exercises and the power of self-talk. I went on to study counselling and a world of help was opened to me. However, I began to see that there was a rift between knowing and doing. This took me back to my roots at Wagner Hills, where I studied the concept of ‘therapeutic community’, the technical name for a community my father founded for healing in addictions. People took part in a work-program, with a spiritual approach to long-term healing. The ‘doing’ rather than learning approach, proved to lead to more effective outcomes compared with those I encountered in ‘recovery.’ The focus seemed to be a key difference. My research in the neurology of focus and desire confirmed that successful outcomes were prone to come from refocussed desires, rather than repressed ones, and that the brain seemed to heal best from reinforcing happy healthy habits rather than fighting with bad ones. My growing appreciation for the very model I grew up with at Wagner Hills, led me to network with like-minded people in hopes of furthering this vision. I currently work in rehabilitation to support people’s mental health and in their substance-use disorder.

Jacobsen: What seem like the main methodologies utilized in recovery systems in Canada?

Boehm: A menu of mindfulness practices, and psychoeducation with forms of cognitive behavioral therapy (like SMART’s rational emotive behavior therapy), have merged, mixed, and are replacing the existing 12-step foundations that have existed for decades through the recovery world. Clinical practice also seems to be replacing a heritage of peer-to-peer counselling and support group forms, yet these groups and meetings still thrive, through pandemics and cultural shifts. The current approach seeks to replace a ‘spiritual solution’ that ‘works’ through ‘surrender’ and finding support among peers through a ‘higher power,’ with a clinical approach that empowers, and erases shame. In the medical world, a different approach has also shifted the culture of recovery entirely with the advent of ‘harm reduction.’ With the attitude of providing the greatest care and safety our society can give, to those with substance use disorder, safe-using supplies, and safe injection sites with safe-supply of medical-grade versions of street drugs. In conjunction with mass distribution of harm-reducing naloxone kits, and education to practice safety, this method aims to eliminate stigma,and put people first.

One aspect of harm-reduction is medication offered as a support for recovery. Many recovery and treatment centres utilize opioid replacement or opioid agonist therapy approaches alongside traditional abstinence-based programs. More progressive still, is a movement to normalize drug-use. In this thinking, substance-use is not viewed as a disorder at all, but is part of a normal human experience to medicate pain and trauma with drugs/medications, as has been practiced over time. Harm reduction in this scope, aims to safely and freely supply drugs and medications of all kinds, for those who choose to medicate their trauma and pain with them.

The methodology of a recovery centre that asks participants to surrender their phones for social-detox, provide urine-test, participate in classes, and receive support in cessation from their ‘drugs of choice’, has undergone some significant disruption and changes in recent years, as these cultures and ideologies crash into each other. Prejudice, stigma and judgement can be found within those who attempt to help those with substance-use-disorder when conflicting ideologies clash, and people’s approach becomes polarized into camps, rather than listening to each other’s experiences and values. While spirituality has always and still plays a major part in the process, recovery centres have needed to modernize their approaches in ways that meet the standards set by health authorities. This has resulted in a reduced-emphasis for spirituality, 12-steps, abstinence, peer-counselling, therapy from past trauma, and a greater emphasis on evidenced-based techniques, and clinical practice, including counselling forms that deal with the practice of the here and now, rather than what happened in the past. The stereotypical revolving door has left some cynical of the results of recovery, while, on the other hand, the outcomes of opioid agonist therapies have left opponents cynical of a medical approach.

Many of the individuals I meet with who struggle with substance-use disorder, report that a treatment centre is their best option and, depending on what stage they are in, may report that they are working up their courage to attend one, again.

Jacobsen: What are common themes amongst or between the experiences of individuals coming into recovery?

Boehm: In the past, the theme of ‘surrender’ was a major emphasis of recovery. The thinking was that a person needed to come to grips with the fact that they couldn’t do it alone, proved by the fact that despite their attempts, they were still unsuccessful. The solution that was proposed, was that a person surrender to a higher power with the help of others around, and through a system of steps, a person evolved from blaming and denying, to supporting and giving their recovery to others. With research, modern counselling methods, and mindfulness practices, such as breathing exercises, and forms of distress-management, the current major theme replacing these past themes, is one of empowerment through skills and mental tools.

Based on my experiences with those in recovery, a timeline could be sketched to describe the landscape of those in stages of readiness for recovery, including the individual’s age, amount of attempts, emergencies, and deaths of loved-ones to addiction. Many that stuck with their programs had the motto, “It’s this or I die.” On the other hand, many young first-timers explained how the court, or a wife that didn’t really understand the situation, had forced them to ‘deal with’ something that they already had under their control. I never encountered someone who had been a part of the fad of ‘interventions’ that happened twenty years ago or so, but have heard many reasons for people entering recovery.

Jacobsen: What are common themes amongst or between the experiences of individuals helping those in recovery?

Boehm: Many have ‘been there’ and are helping others out of a lifestyle they had experienced and felt was horrible. Others, like myself, can relate to a life that can get in disorder, and find it important to support people in desperate circumstances. With the brain restructured, and pulled by the immense gravity of relapse, following long periods of substance use, outcomes can be very discouraging. Those of us in the world practice enormous self-care to persevere through the discouragement and tragedy we encounter. It seems that overdose is common, and even death seems to get less attention than ever. With these conditions, and the deplorable suffering for those we care for, many rely and trust in a higher power for spiritual sustenance, and learn many ways to self-care in a career that can easily lead to burn out.

Jacobsen: How much does evidence-based treatment play a role in Canadian treatment?

Boehm: Thankfully, I doubt there is a place where evidenced-based treatment isn’t practiced to some degree. I had heard that years ago, there were recovery centres that used 12-step models, exclusively. Only one book was provided – the big book. It is of course possible that such places still exist, but I am not aware of any. As research has informed the education and climate of recovery, punitive methods have thankfully disappeared, to be replaced with helpful trauma-informed models that understand core reasons that people use substances to cope with life.

Jacobsen: How much does spirituality or religion play a role in Canadian treatment?

Boehm: I would say that spirituality plays a major role in the roots of recovery in 12-step models and programs, nearly 90 years-back, and has informed substance-users that recovery is something that is not accomplished independently. The role of religion is that it seems to have offered a lot of funding, and support for the development of recovery centres. For example, I know my dad used to tour churches to tell people about the therapeutic Christian community he founded, and congregants would volunteer to financially support or visit Wanger Hills and serve there. Spirituality, as defined by 12-step groups, has always been inclusive, and has facilitated the resistance many have formed toward religions for various reasons. Practices such as prayer, played a major role. For example, AA meetings end with the prayer of serenity “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can’t, and the wisdom to know the difference. Prayer books often accompanied AA literature. The stereotypical setting for a meeting was a church, as churches often had free or cheap rental fees, big coffee urns, and demonstrate accommodating attitudes to those in recovery. Today, in recovery centres, Spirituality may include “Smudges”, and First Nations Spirituality is often honoured and encouraged.

Jacobsen: What is the role of the “Higher Power” concept, or even the concept of God, in some treatment systems in Canada?

Boehm: In a 12-step framed model, the role of the Higher Power, is the power to change for the person who feels powerless. The concept of God is the unconditional loving receiver of the rejected person who has broken every promise and provided pain to every relationship in their life. God is also the one person who can never be fooled, who stands as judge, but also as the one who forgives, and frees the person to forgive, to let go of their need to control others, to let go of their pain, and let go of the painful actions toward others, and can provides a new identity that can do good to those who were harmed. In a setting I worked in, I was surprised to see that videos from pastors and priests were viewed, along with other religious ceremonies. I encountered some in recovery who said “I’ll try it all, anything that works!” Other places focused more on breathing, meditation, and viewed religion and spirituality as a means to the end of sobriety. With this mindset, religion was used as a kind of evidenced-based practice. What I mean by this, is that if religion brought results, it was considered a positive therapy to add to the menu of recovery. At Wagner Hills, God is the centre of the programing and framed everything else. Music directed toward God frames each morning. Then through the day, clients work together with others, to act justly, value-people, and help to work for the world that God designed it to be. Focus on a relationship with the loving God, which when focussed on creates a love for others, diminishes selfish-destructive-desires, and is the essence of the actions and behaviour of everything practiced at Wagner Hills.

Jacobsen: What has been the most tragic story known to you?

Boehm: I supported a young person with mental illness, who had very little idea of the dangers of the drugs that he began to experiment with. He was found, sadly days after he died alone, and was missed deeply by friends he was so generous to. The inclusion of fentanyl in nearly every street drug, and the extreme-risk it presents, have made naive experimentation so lethal. In cases like his, he was gone, before I, or many of his friends, knew that he was even trying substances.

Jacobsen: For a happy ending, what has been the most heartwarming, uplifting story of success in treatment known to you?

Boehm: As a child, one of the most memorable clients from my fathers healing community for those with addictions, for obvious reasons, was a wonderful man who had one arm. He was so joyful, and played with my brother and me, with such enthusiasm, attention, and kindness, while he amazed us by throwing perfect spiral football passes. His joy was contagious, and still is, as he continues to help others nearly forty years later. I guess a good ‘heartwarming’ story should have a dramatic before-and-after story-arc, so the reader could fully appreciate the contrast of a changed-life. I have no idea what his ‘before’ story was, only that he was from a First-Nations background and must have arrived at Wagner hills to overcome addiction in his life. I think of this story, because it literally warms my heart to just think of him, and the joy he gave me and my brother, in his new found freedom at Wagner Hills. It is heartwarming to think that he is still giving that joy away today.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2). September 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm-2

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, September 8). Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (September 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm-2>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm-2>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm-2.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2) [Internet]. 2022 Sep; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm-2

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-09-08

Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 2: Stefan Oskar Neff on Recovery

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: E

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use”

Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Stefan Oskar Neff

Word Count: 863

Image Credit: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

Abstract

Stefan Oskar Neff is the SMART Recovery Regional Coordinator for British Columbia. Neff discusses: finding recovery; the main methodologies utilized in recovery systems in Canada; experiences of individuals; helping those in recovery/those circumstances; evidence-based treatment; spirituality or religion; “Higher Power” concept; most tragic story; and a happy ending.

Keywords: British Columbia, Canada, Japan, Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use, recovery, SMART Recovery, Stefan Oskar Neff.

Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 2: Stefan Oskar Neff on Recovery

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was the start of the story in finding recovery for you?

Stefan Oskar Neff: The first moment was when my wife was visiting Japan. I was drinking, hiding. She came back from Japan because my wife is Japanese. She said to me, “Why did you have to hide the fact that you needed cash?” I said, “Because I needed cash.” She said, “You know, you can hide. You can lie, to me, and to your family, but you cannot lie to the universe to whatever you want to believe in. You cannot lie to yourself.” At that moment, she said, “I am going to be happy no matter what if you’re in my life or not. I’ll support you in whatever way that I choose to do.” But she said she would be happy no matter. That moment, a light bulb went on in my head. I knew it was my choice and 24 hours later; I made the choice not to ever touch alcohol. That was 6 years ago. I would say that is the starting point. It was when she had shared with me that she was going to be happy no matter what and it was going to be my choice.

Jacobsen: What seem like the main methodologies utilized in recovery systems in Canada?

Neff: I did not use any recovery system in Canada. I used communication by talking about my thoughts and feelings. To answer your question, “None.” So, I have to pass.

Jacobsen: What are common themes amongst or between the experiences of individuals coming into recovery/having those experiences?

Neff: The common theme is one is out of control of the substance use, is they’re losing connection with their family. They are getting – I was getting – tired of hiding, lying, and destroying my life.

Jacobsen: What are common themes amongst or between the experiences of individuals helping those in recovery/those circumstances?

Neff: A common theme – wow, the commonality is so similar to every individual that I’ve seen because I’ve seen thousands over the last four years. The common one is being out of control and that they cannot stop drinking, until they’ve taken responsibility. The common theme is trying to help the out-of-controlness and helping the individual wanting to change and wanting to stop.

Jacobsen: How much does evidence-based treatment play a role in Canadian treatment?

Neff: For one, evidence-based is a large part of the actual healthcare profession, as myself as the regional coordinator for SMART Recovery. For one, SMART Recovery is in every federal corrections institute across Canada going from BC all the way back East. That was implemented as a major program for the corrections institutes. That was done two years ago. That’s a big part, further dual-diagnosis and the addiction aspect of it. That’s large. You’ve got most of the healthcare professions in BC are using evidence-based SMART Recovery with 1-on-1 psychiatric as well as in-treatment, and their own treatment centres as well, as well as a small portion of the recovery centres across British Columbia. It is making a large impact from what I’ve seen over the last 3 years, as well as the Indigenous/First Nations as well. As an individual, I work with the training team with SMART Recovery. So, I see individuals working and training organizations for youth, Indigenous, and also the healthcare profession. So, yes, I’ve seen a large grow over the last 2 or 3 years.

Jacobsen: How much does spirituality or religion play a role in Canadian treatment?

Neff: Canadian treatment? A large part, I don’t know about that aspect. From what I know, it is a large part. I am speculating because I don’t know. What I’ve seen when approaching the recovery aspect of it, recovery centres, yes, I would say, “95 to 99% of it.”

Jacobsen: What is the role of the “Higher Power” concept, or even the concept of God, in some treatment systems in Canada?

Neff: I’ll have to pass on that one.

Jacobsen: What has been the most tragic story known to you?

Neff: The only tragic one is my own. But, with that being said, I had an individual coming to the meetings. Then he left SMART Recovery, and then he woke up one morning. His wife at the time found him; that he’d passed away. That’s the only tragic one I’d seen. I’ve seen other ones as well. Not, for example, personally, because I had a personal connection with this individual in the sense that I was working with him. That’s what I’ve experienced in my own life.

Jacobsen: For a happy ending, what has been the most heartwarming, uplifting story of success in treatment known to you?

Neff: An individual went to treatment for a full year. Then coming to SMART Recovery, before that, the individual was living in a car, homeless, at the brink of, basically, choosing between death and life, and making that choice to live, and then moving to treatment, then joining SMART Recovery for 3 years. Now, she is becoming a social worker and helping others with recovery.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Stefan.

Neff: You’re very welcome.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 2: Stefan Oskar Neff on Recovery. September 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neff

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, September 8). Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 2: Stefan Oskar Neff on Recovery. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neff.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 2: Stefan Oskar Neff on Recovery. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 2: Stefan Oskar Neff on Recovery.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neff.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 2: Stefan Oskar Neff on Recovery.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (September 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neff.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 2: Stefan Oskar Neff on Recovery’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neff>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 2: Stefan Oskar Neff on Recovery’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neff>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 2: Stefan Oskar Neff on Recovery.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neff.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 2: Stefan Oskar Neff on Recovery [Internet]. 2022 Sep; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neff

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-09-08

The Complexity of Simplicity

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: B

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: None

Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Prof. Sam Vaknin, Ph.D.

Word Count: 1,758

Image Credit: Sam Vaknin

Keywords: chaos, complexity, design, DNA, intelligence, language, nature, Seth Shostak, SETI, simplicity, systems.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

*Republished with permission.*

The Complexity of Simplicity

“Everything is simpler than you think and at the same time more complex than you imagine.”
(Johann Wolfgang von Goethe)

Complexity rises spontaneously in nature through processes such as self-organization. Emergent phenomena are common as are emergent traits, both classes not reducible to basic components, interactions, or properties. Complex order is derived from simpler randomness or chaos, for example, but cannot be traced back to it in a linear, monovalent fashion (see note).

Complexity in nature does not imply the existence of a designer or a design. Natural complexity does not indicate, let alone prove the existence of intelligence and sentient beings. On the contrary, complexity in nature usually points towards a natural source and a random origin. Natural complexity and artificiality are often incompatible.

Artificial designs and objects are found only in unexpected (“unnatural”) contexts and environments. Natural objects are totally predictable and expected. Artificial creations are efficient and, therefore, simple and parsimonious. Natural objects and processes are not.

As Seth Shostak notes in his excellent essay, titled “SETI and Intelligent Design”, evolution experiments with numerous dead ends before it yields a single adapted biological entity. DNA is far from optimized: it contains inordinate amounts of junk. Our bodies come replete with dysfunctional appendages and redundant organs. Lightning bolts emit energy all over the electromagnetic spectrum. Pulsars and interstellar gas clouds spew radiation over the entire radio spectrum. The energy of the Sun is ubiquitous over the entire optical and thermal range. No intelligent engineer – human or not – would be so wasteful.

Confusing artificiality with complexity is not the only terminological conundrum.

Complexity and simplicity are often, and intuitively, regarded as two extremes of the same continuum, or spectrum. Yet, this may be a simplistic view, indeed.

Simple procedures (codes, programs), in nature as well as in computing, often yield the most complex results. Where does the complexity reside, if not in the simple program that created it? A minimal number of primitive interactions occur in a primordial soup and, presto, life. Was life somehow embedded in the primordial soup all along? Or in the interactions? Or in the combination of substrate and interactions?

Complex processes yield simple products (think about products of thinking such as a newspaper article, or a poem, or manufactured goods such as a sewing thread). What happened to the complexity? Was it somehow reduced, “absorbed, digested, or assimilated”? Is it a general rule that, given sufficient time and resources, the simple can become complex and the complex reduced to the simple? Is it only a matter of computation?

We can resolve these apparent contradictions by closely examining the categories we use.

Perhaps simplicity and complexity are categorical illusions, the outcomes of limitations inherent in our system of symbols (in our language).

We label something “complex” when we use a great number of symbols to describe it. But, surely, the choices we make (regarding the number of symbols we use) teach us nothing about complexity, a real phenomenon!

A straight line can be described with three symbols (A, B, and the distance between them) – or with three billion symbols (a subset of the discrete points which make up the line and their inter-relatedness, their function). But whatever the number of symbols we choose to employ, however complex our level of description, it has nothing to do with the straight line or with its “real world” traits. The straight line is not rendered more (or less) complex or orderly by our choice of level of (meta) description and language elements.

The simple (and ordered) can be regarded as the tip of the complexity iceberg, or as part of a complex, interconnected whole, or hologramically, as encompassing the complex (the same way all particles are contained in all other particles). Still, these models merely reflect choices of descriptive language, with no bearing on reality.

Perhaps complexity and simplicity are not related at all, either quantitatively, or qualitatively. Perhaps complexity is not simply more simplicity. Perhaps there is no organizational principle tying them to one another. Complexity is often an emergent phenomenon, not reducible to simplicity.

The third possibility is that somehow, perhaps through human intervention, complexity yields simplicity and simplicity yields complexity (via pattern identification, the application of rules, classification, and other human pursuits). This dependence on human input would explain the convergence of the behaviors of all complex systems on to a tiny sliver of the state (or phase) space (sort of a mega attractor basin). According to this view, Man is the creator of simplicity and complexity alike but they do have a real and independent existence thereafter (the Copenhagen interpretation of a Quantum Mechanics).

Still, these twin notions of simplicity and complexity give rise to numerous theoretical and philosophical complications.

Consider life.

In human (artificial and intelligent) technology, every thing and every action has a function within a “scheme of things”. Goals are set, plans made, designs help to implement the plans.

Not so with life. Living things seem to be prone to disorientated thoughts, or the absorption and processing of absolutely irrelevant and inconsequential data. Moreover, these laboriously accumulated databases vanish instantaneously with death. The organism is akin to a computer which processes data using elaborate software and then turns itself off after 15-80 years, erasing all its work.

Most of us believe that what appears to be meaningless and functionless supports the meaningful and functional and leads to them. The complex and the meaningless (or at least the incomprehensible) always seem to resolve to the simple and the meaningful. Thus, if the complex is meaningless and disordered then order must somehow be connected to meaning and to simplicity (through the principles of organization and interaction).

Moreover, complex systems are inseparable from their environment whose feedback induces their self-organization. Our discrete, observer-observed, approach to the Universe is, thus, deeply inadequate when applied to complex systems. These systems cannot be defined, described, or understood in isolation from their environment. They are one with their surroundings.

Many complex systems display emergent properties. These cannot be predicted even with perfect knowledge about said systems. We can say that the complex systems are creative and intuitive, even when not sentient, or intelligent. Must intuition and creativity be predicated on intelligence, consciousness, or sentience?

Thus, ultimately, complexity touches upon very essential questions of who we, what are we for, how we create, and how we evolve. It is not a simple matter, that. Moreover, it is safe to say that the scientific method cannot be gainfully employed to successfully tackle indeterminate complex systems (such as the brain, the Universe, the individual, and human collectives). It is questionable whether disciplines such as psychology, economics and even cosmology and “neuroscience” are, indeed, sciences.

Note

Admittedly, an argument can be made that organizational principles such as “time” and observational phenomena such as “chaos” reflect and arise from our limitations as (human, finite) observers and that reality is actually foundationally timeless and ordered. The stochastic may merely reflect our fundamental inability to grasp the deterministic, a boundary condition of our finitude, as it were.

Note on Learning

There are two types of learning: natural and sapient (or intelligent).

Natural learning is based on feedback. When water waves hit rocks and retreat, they communicate to the ocean at large information about the obstacles they have encountered (their shape, size, texture, location, etc.). This information modifies the form and angle of attack (among other physical properties) of future waves.

Natural learning is limited in its repertory. For all practical purposes, the data processed are invariable, the feedback immutable, and the outcomes predictable (though this may not hold true over eons). Natural learning is also limited in time and place (local and temporal and weakly communicable).

Sapient or Intelligent Learning is similarly based on feedback, but it involves other mechanisms, most of them self-recursive (introspective). It alters the essence of the learning entities (i.e., the way they function), not only their physical parameters. The input, processing procedures, and output are all interdependent, adaptive, ever-changing, and, often, unpredictable. Sapient learning is nonlocal and nontemporal. It is, therefore, highly communicable (akin to an extensive parameter): learning in one part of a system is efficiently conveyed to all other divisions.

Complexity Theory and Ambiguity or Vagueness

A Glossary of the terms used here

Ambiguity (or indeterminacy, in deconstructivist parlance) is when a statement or string (word, sentence, theorem, or expression) has two or more distinct meanings either lexically (e.g., homonyms), or because of its grammar or syntax (e.g., amphiboly). It is the context, which helps us to choose the right or intended meaning (“contextual disambiguating” which often leads to a focal meaning).

Vagueness arises when there are “borderline cases” of the existing application of a concept (or a predicate). When is a person tall? When does a collection of sand grains become a heap (the sorites or heap paradox)?, etc. Fuzzy logic truth values do not eliminate vagueness – they only assign continuous values (“fuzzy sets”) to concepts (“prototypes”).

Open texture is when there may be “borderline cases” in the future application of a concept (or a predicate). While vagueness can be minimized by specifying rules (through precisifaction, or supervaluation) – open texture cannot because we cannot predict future “borderline cases”.

It would seem that a complexity theory formalism can accurately describe both ambiguity and vagueness:

Language can be construed as a self-organizing network, replete with self-organized criticality.

Language can also be viewed as a Production System (Iterated Function Systems coupled with Lindenmeyer L-Systems and Schemas to yield Classifiers Systems). To use Holland’s vocabulary, language is a set of Constrained Generating Procedures.

“Vague objects” (with vague spatial or temporal boundaries) are, actually, best represented by fractals. They are not indeterminate (only their boundaries are). Moreover, self-similarity is maintained. Consider a mountain – where does it start or end and what, precisely, does it include? A fractal curve (boundary) is an apt mathematical treatment of this question.

Indeterminacy can be described as the result of bifurcation leading to competing, distinct, but equally valid, meanings.

Borderline cases (and vagueness) arise at the “edge of chaos” – in concepts and predicates with co-evolving static and chaotic elements.

(Focal) meanings can be thought of as attractors.

Contexts can be thought of as attractor landscapes in the phase space of language. They can also be described as fitness landscapes with optimum epistasis (interdependence of values assigned to meanings).

The process of deriving meaning (or disambiguating) is akin to tracing a basin of attraction. It can be described as a perturbation in a transient, leading to a stable state.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Vaknin S. The Complexity of Simplicity. September 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/simplicity-complexity

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Vaknin, S. (2022, September 8). The Complexity of Simplicity. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/simplicity-complexity.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): VAKNIN, S. The Complexity of Simplicity. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Vaknin, Sam. 2022. “The Complexity of Simplicity.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/simplicity-complexity.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Vaknin, Sam “The Complexity of Simplicity.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (September 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/simplicity-complexity.

Harvard: Vaknin, S. (2022) ‘The Complexity of Simplicity’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/simplicity-complexity>.

Harvard (Australian): Vaknin, S 2022, ‘The Complexity of Simplicity’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/simplicity-complexity>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Vaknin, Sam. “The Complexity of Simplicity.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/simplicity-complexity.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Vaknin S. The Complexity of Simplicity [Internet]. 2022 Sep; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/simplicity-complexity

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-09-08

Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 1: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts of God in Recovery (1)

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: E

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use”

Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Jeremy Boehm

Word Count: 3,930

Image Credit: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

*Republished with interviewee consent.*

Abstract

Jeremy Boehm is a lover of music, art, and sports, and loves to spend time with his young family and animals on his hobby farm on Vancouver Island. Jeremy has a BA with theological and youth ministry emphasis from Calgary and furthered his education in counselling with focus on addiction for a second career in supporting those with substance use disorders. Boehm discusses: concepts of God; a malevolent or a benevolent monotheistic god; an indifferent god; trauma as the foundation for individuals coming to a lot of centres for recovery or programs for recovery; connection; and malevolence or indifference to benevolence.

Keywords: British Columbia, Canada, God, Jeremy Boehm, Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use, recovery, theist, Township of Langley, Wagner Hills.

Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 1: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts of God in Recovery (1)

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, here today with Jeremy Boehm, he is the son of Helmut Boehm. He (Helmut) is the founder, or father, of Wagner Hills. This is in Langley, British Columbia. I wrote an article with an addendum two or more years ago. You sent me the longest email I have ever received [Ed. 10,000+ words.]. A lot of it was quite vulnerable and confessional in a healthy way. I emailed back relatively rapidly within the last week.

So, you agreed to talk, specifically, the concepts of God that arise in the context of recovery for individuals. You come from, not personally but, knowing some of the communal aspects and individuals who have a theist belief; and they find it helpful in their process of recovering from forms of substance use and/or misuse. So, what concepts of God tend to arise? And how do these arise over time?

Jeremy Boehm: The concept of God, I see a lot goes by different names. If a person is comfortable, with religion, faith, Christianity, and comfortable with the particular religion they grew up with, they would call that concept God or the name they had been given for it by their religion. So often, in different places of substance use/abuse, there is a background of trauma. A person from trauma may not want to remember the source of that trauma and in that case may have some real discomfort with the names and the terminology they inherited that remind them of that trauma. Now, the construct, the theistic construct, may be the same. It may even be a good and benevolent construct.

Some who would report that they didn’t believe in God may still have, in the back of their head, a latent, benevolent, theistic construct. They believe in something or someone cares for them, loves them, made the universe a beautiful place, even if that God made the universe a place with both awful and good in it. They feel that there is something out there that’s kind. Some people will name that construct “the Universe.” For example, I often hear the phrase, “The Universe stepped in and intervened.” It really is a kind personification to say that. Some people will use the name “Creator.” Some people “God.” Some people will avoid the issue. I find that the construct is latent, though. What I mean by latent, is that when people are really in trouble, that’s when this construct comes out.

For example, what I’ve heard from some who would identify themselves as atheist, is that when they were in trouble they reached out. I remember someone saying, “I, actually, confessed that I did, in this deep, deep dark place, reach out. I didn’t even know who I was reaching out to.” Or somebody who had a near death experience at my current work, recently said “I didn’t grow up with this. I grew up with a form of First Nations belief. But actually, I had a vision of Jesus, but, I guess, that was the one in my near death experience who I gravitated towards, or reached out to.”

So this way of relating to God, or not, is also a way of dealing with the trauma. The ‘AA’ way to deal with this difficulty in ‘naming’ or identifying God for those who have had a negative experience that taints their view of God, either by their parents, or abuse, or abuse in the church, you name it, and there are so many reasons, to have negative feelings towards religion, whether it be the Residential Schools, yes, there is every conceivable reason to have something against religion, and to have negative feelings toward the people who claim to practice it, who hurt other people. The approach of AA is to allow the individual to give the deity their own name and definition. “You name your higher power. It can be your cat if you want. You can name it whatever you want. You call the shots” and this can disarm the experience of encountering the higher power, AA talks about. This approach, takes the pain and trauma that have been associated with God, and pushes that aside, and allows people to experience the higher power as they feel comfortable with it.

What I witness in the people I work with in my current work place and from before, is that a majority of them are open to pray, and even are very open about their belief in God, and even, to a certain degree, are evangelistic of each other. What I mean by open, is that they will say, “Let me pray for you,” or, “Here, let me tell you what this is about.” They will fight, occasionally, about the character of that God, or who goes to heaven, but the character of the god I mostly hear about, is benevolent. I also witness that over time, the people who had gone through step work, or who had gone through some kind of a healing process, start to lose the negative images, what I mean by that is, that I think there are incredibly negative images of religion out there of, maybe, a divine punisher.

I think this is what I wrote to you about. That as a teenager, I had a very negative of God as a divine punisher. And I don’t think this construct had anything to do with my parents, or anything else, maybe just teenage rebellion contributed to me forming this construct of a divine punisher. The interesting this I’ve witnessed, is, this image of a divine bad guy out to punish us, slowly melts away as people heal, open their hearts, or open their minds, or whatever you call it, in prayer, and they allow this higher power to just reveal Himself or Itself. They find the openness to allow this being to being to reveal the character, apart from all the religion and negative imagery that was attached with that construct.

As a person finds more revelation or experience with God, I find that they’re experience is a lot like my experience was, and they will come to the conclusion that, “Oh, this isn’t a bad guy. This person cares. There’s love. There’s healing. There’s something really good here.” They get more and more comfortable with more of the terminology, which, before, maybe they didn’t like. They might even feel comfortable enough to explore doctrine and theology and other things they avoided at first because of the painful associations.

Jacobsen: I’m seeing two core concepts here of a god, which, on the surface if not at a deeper level, are diametrically opposed. On the one hand, as you phrased it, a “divine punisher,” on the other hand, a god who cares and loves for you, created a world of good and evil, but there’s a certain redemptive quality within that world as well. So, it’s less a divine punisher, and more a divine carer and nurturer.

Boehm: Benevolent, yes, something good.

Jacobsen: Are there any other manifestations, apart from those two, which you have seen arise in others? For instance, you alluded to one individual who comes from a First Nations background with an unnamed band who, in their own experience – religious experience, had Jesus as the imagery and experience. Are there other ones outside of the image of Christ, a sort of First Nations spirituality as a transition into the image of Christ, or the ones mentioned earlier between a malevolent or a benevolent monotheistic god?

Boehm: If I understand what you’re asking here, certainly what I encountered, especially from First Nations people who had been in a recovery centre where I worked experienced spiritual experiences differently than I had. For example, a bald eagle would fly over and they would report that this was a deeply significant and spiritual experience that came from their culture. So the timing of that eagle flying at that particular moment signified something important about that timing. Certainly, the significance of smudges and of ritual, I think ritual plays a very big part in religion and, to a certain degree, spirituality. But I don’t see religion and spirituality as the same thing. I make a divide.

I’m not the one who came up with this definition of the difference. I don’t know if I can put it very clearly at this time of day. But how I would differentiate these two, is that religion is something humans do, as a ritual to influence god or the forces of nature to work to their desired goal, so that might look, for example like the sacrifice of an animal, or a certain kind of dance to influence the gods to bring rain, or something. Whereas, spirituality is connecting in relationship to the deity, and sometimes this is in a posture of powerlessness, but of intimacy. So that’s how I would define Spirituality and religion differently. Spirituality is connecting; religion is practicing a ritual with the motive of trying to achieve something. Yes, I differentiate religion versus spirituality.

I think, getting back to your question, ‘Are there other forms there?’ Yes, I think what we receive as our ‘early programming’, from our parents, creates an image in those early formative years that has a profound impact on the whether we later think of God as benevolent or evil. Maybe, our parents communicate that God is good, while, on the other hand, abusing us. Or, the reverse might be true. To answer your question, there’s all kinds of things that we develop in our brains at an early age, that later form our expectations of what we will find in God. Those early years, build the brain’s framework of what spirituality and religion is, and then we populate that framework through our experiences.

I think this book that I was describing to you, Finding God in the Waves (Finding God in the Waves: How I Lost My Faith and Found It Again Through Science), really describes that well in terms of the neurology of it. I am really interested in the brain, which I’m sure is obvious, through the correspondence we’ve had so far. But, as is probably also obvious, based on how I have expressed my beliefs to you, I take a step further than the biological formations of frameworks of beliefs that are planted in a child, because I actually believe in a discoverable reality of God. I see a measurable reality in spiritual things, just like I think you can measure the realities of math, physics, and science and so on. In the same way I think you can find ultimate reality about our origin and Creator, and the all the rest. That is if you are, open to the higher power, and warm up to the idea, and let down the guard, set aside the negativity, relax the resolve, or whatever you want to call it, that pushes back against the idea or construct of God. The biggest part of this process is to allow that deity to separate itself from all of the human experiences of evil that have populated our brain with a bad impression or a bad feeling towards that deity, then the deity’s true colours will come through.

You have to be open to it, and let that experience happen. But in the instance that a person is open, I believe a person can uncover the reality of the true deity, the Truth that I understand. That’s what I see in my experiences of working with those is substance use disorder, in the work place. I see that there are lots of names, and lots of understandings and experiences of God. It’s easy to forget that Jesus is already a name that has been translated to English. The term Christ is a Greek word. All of these names, are names that people adopt from themselves to refer to the deity. The way that I see Jesus, as we have named him in English, is that God came down to help us understand who He really is. Back then, people were incredibly confused about what religion just as they are today. Jesus served people and that confused them. He lived in a culture that expressed racism toward its neighbours. His main opponents were ‘Pharisees’. These were people who held a concept of religious law that raised their own social status and provided them with power. When God presents Himself in the world, He’s not rich. He doesn’t hold the stereotypical kingship that people expected him too, in how they interpreted prophecy. He role-modeled this, this serving, this washing of feet, this dying on a cross, this love.

He says, ‘This is what deity is like. Eventually, all the world will know my name.” They won’t know my name because I had the fastest meme or the most powerful seat of rulership in the world in a major empire. Of course, there are much more powerful kings and famous people. It is because over time, people will come to know that the way Jesus lived was the character of the deity. That character is what, I think, will come out to someone who is searching. And those who are in substance use disorder are often searching very deeply for God and using substances or alcohol to medicate or soothe the pain that they wish God could heal. I think what I’ve said about Jesus isn’t a politically-correct thing to say. When I speak this way, some will only hear it said that everyone else is wrong. It will sound intolerant to say that there is a singular reality in spirituality as there is in chemistry for example. It can be offensive to say that only one thing is true. Could it say that someone’s spirituality isn’t true? It’s much easier politically to be subjective, and even to relegate the whole topic to one that can only be considered subjective. I don’t spend time arguing that one religion is right. I say that religions may point to truth. Instead I look for Spirituality that connects us with God, and the way that I derive the character of that God, is that He visited us and showed us. It may be hard to accept for many people that Jesus was God visiting us. To be fair, there have been many charlatans over time who have made false claims and deceived people. How a person like me, or like a recovering substance user, comes to these conclusions about God, has a lot to do with personal experience, learning history, and taking their time as they ease into the ideas. I don’t assume that everybody will come to the same conclusions that I have because everyone has their own experiences that influence their views. I understand that not all people will find the truth, because their experiences or desires, may not lead them to truth. They may choose to deceive themselves. A refusal to believe in climate change might be a good example of that. It can be comfortable to remain ambiguous about certain realities in an effort to dodge responsibility. Or they may have been deceived on a mass scale, or by simply not having the experience to discover the truth.

Jacobsen: Does anyone come to a recovery program with a sense of a belief in a god, but an indifferent god?

Boehm: I’ve asked people that. I am interested in the character of God people perceive. I am particularly interested in the perception of God people have when they come from abuse. Some of my personal experience in counselling people from abuse is just felt impossibly tragic.

Particularly in some of the most horrific abuse, I was interested in what people’s view of the deity was. Is their view of deity affected? Well of course, yes. But the strange thing was, that for some reason, some of those with the most tragic abuse could still imagine a benevolence creator. I don’t know why. For whatever reason, it seems that tragic abuse from a parent can somehow co-exist with a benevolent view of God. I suppose, in the same way that people believe that good and evil both exist, people can believe in a good god even while their neighbours are burned alive. They are able to see how evil and good can be at war, and can both exist. So yes, some people who come to a recovery centre, and who are deeply wounded from trauma, have a view of a God who doesn’t care. What is so interesting to me, is those who despite their experiences believe in a benevolent one. It’s really puzzling.

Jacobsen: At the outset of the recorded conversation, at least, you mentioned trauma as the foundation for individuals coming to a lot of centres for recovery or programs for recovery? What are the common patterns of trauma experiences and – let’s say – symptomatology around it, even qualitative symptomatology?

Boehm: That’s a good question, Scott. I don’t feel qualified to answer it, to tell you the truth. I think my experience is too limited. I could tell you what I saw, but I feel like that is much too big a question – as are all of these questions really. I’d be arrogant [Laughing] to say I am qualified to answer anything your asking, other than to speak from my experiences. I feel like my counselling and my clinical experiences were much too brief to say what the common experience is for trauma. Only that, “Yes,” trauma was present in so many cases and was a root pain that was medicated through substances and through other behaviours too. It feels like just about every story included trauma. Here is an interesting part of the symptomatology. The consequences of using substances and alcohol to numb the pain, is that the use of these substances and the behaviour and consequences from the use create more consequences. So over time, the consequences of the medicating behaviour may be much greater than that of the trauma that lead to the behaviour. And in a few exceptions, I’ve heard that the addiction was the main problem-causer … in this person’s recollection, they didn’t have a painful beginning, but simply started drinking a lot at a very young age with their siblings and friends. Now of course, the neglect that could allow that to happen is a sort of abuse in itself, but this person perceived that they hadn’t begun to drink to cover pain, but that it was the alcohol from an early age that caused so many problems and so much pain. As I heard them, I wondered if it wasn’t both. A lot of people have a hard time remembering memories of trauma. They might blank out whole years or sections of life in their memory. But using alcohol and substances to numb pain is a very common means of dealing with pain, and in the perceived experience of a substance user, it is reported as a very effective way. There are other ways of course too.

The trauma story occurs generationally. The substance-use provides enough consequences in the family to cause disturbance, I think, in the oxytocin systems in a baby’s developing brain, so that rather than developing a sense of safety, of being soothed by the parent, the baby adapts with the instinct to self-soothe when the cycles of attachment with the parent are interrupted. Those basic cycles in the first 7 months, as I understand it, are so disturbed when a mother and father, are involved in substance use disorder. And this has the effect of passing this trauma from generation to generation. I think I am repeating myself, so I think I should finish with that.

Jacobsen: When an individual has an indifferentist experience of a god or a malevolent experience of a god, both grounded in a sense of trauma in personal history, or collective, how are they making that spirituality, as defined before as connecting to something, rather than human beings trying to get something, manifest itself in a recovery setting? How are they making that connection when it happens in their own words?

Boehm: Yeah! I think it’s a brilliant question. I think it starts with, “What do I got to do? How do I have to bargain to get out of here, out of trouble, out of my addiction, out of whatever? I’ll do whatever to get out of this misery.” It almost always starts with “Help. How can I bargain?” That might progress to “I don’t have anything to bargain with. I don’t have any currency that God or the deity needs. There’s nothing I can bargain with. Why should He be particularly put out, if I hurt myself, or if I do what he wants or not, or anything? Is there anything I can do that would effect the deity anyway? There’s nothing I can do, or not do, that is bargaining material.”

Once they realize their “bankruptcy,” I think, this is the AA term for this, where they might express, “I don’t have anything I can manipulate or control God with. I am not an equal player in this relationship.” Then when they come to this conclusion, there are a lot of uncomfortable feelings that go on. I think the discovery of benevolence happens in that moment. And it feels like being wrapped up in your parents loving arms, and forgiven [Laughing]. You’ve done something really naughty and can’t undo it. They forgive you and love you, only because you’re you and because they’re them, and because of love, not because you are able to fix the situation, or make it up to them, or do anything to bargain with them for forgiveness. You can’t argue your way into being forgiven.

I think the transition from the religious side of it – “I am doing this to get something” – to the spiritual connection side occurs when the person hits that point of bankruptcy or surrender where they admit “I am hopeless. I can’t do this. I have no traction.” Following this, they arrive at, as I described in my letter to you, the identity of considering themselves as a “child of God”. They gain the sense that they are worth something, simply because God made them and loves them, and not because they do anything, or perform anything, or become moral, or have the ability to flawlessly follow all the religious rules. They transition from wondering, “Am I moral enough?” to recognizing, “I am loved.” At that point, they experience the benevolence of God and I think, they make a deep connection.

Some people hear the voice of God or have visions, and gain a sense of communion, and connection with God, just like people might do with their closest human lovers or family. They’re like, “Wow, I am present with God. I feel His presence.”

Jacobsen: Is this transition from malevolence or indifference to benevolence a fulcrum grounded on, basically, conditionality to unconditionality of a sense of love?

Boehm: Yes, I think that’s it, Scott. That’s exactly what I was trying to say. When you find out, you can’t meet the conditions. What could you do anyway? Especially, you feel helpless with substance abuse disorder and the hopelessness of being unable to change. There is such a vivid picture of helplessness, especially there. I believe that the transition to a belief in God’s malevolence occurs just at that point when a person realizes that God’s love is unconditional, it’s the love, that’s the ticket. Well put.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 1: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts of God in Recovery (1). September 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, September 8). Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 1: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts of God in Recovery (1). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 1: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts of God in Recovery (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 1: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts of God in Recovery (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 1: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts of God in Recovery (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (September 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 1: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts of God in Recovery (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 1: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts of God in Recovery (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 1: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts of God in Recovery (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 1: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts of God in Recovery (1) [Internet]. 2022 Sep; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-09-08

The Greenhorn Chronicles 25: Moya Byrne Merrin on Horse Care and Dressage Horses (2)

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: E

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: “The Greenhorn Chronicles”

Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Moya Byrne Merrin

Word Count: 868

Image Credit: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

*Interview conducted January 2, 2022.*

Abstract

Moya Byrne Merrin is the Director of High Point Equestrian Centre. Merrin discusses: the care for the horses; sold; properties; the sport; centralized in Europe; and the types of horses that tend to work best for dressage.

Keywords: British Columbia, Canada, dressage, equestrianism, High Point Equestrian Centre, Moya Byrne Merrin, The Greenhorn Chronicles, Township of Langley.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 25: Moya Byrne Merrin on Horse Care and Dressage Horses (2)

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I know what you’re talking about. I’ve worked in restaurants. I am working at one stable. With this, I want to ask, more as the barn manager, about the care for the horses, e.g., the proper feed, the proper shavings, etc.

Moya Byrne Merrin: That is shared information over years of experience and also with what is available to us: The internet, bringing in people, asking them what they use. What can we get? What is best for the horse? We do constant research. There’s always new stuff coming up. Vets, we listen to them. “Look at this,” especially when learning with more horses coming through. We can up this or cut that.

When it comes to feeding, very motivated to find what is the best way to feed. What is in their food? How is it processed? That is a combination of shared wisdom and internet research, and constantly educating ourselves, taking in horses and anything new, i.e., papers that have been researched and published, and trying to adapt with what is available. Hay, it always gets tested now. Steamers, this is proven to work.

We have seen it not only in horses who are old and had issues. But we can see the differences in the horses when they are working. The seizing is less, the coughing that they blow out, same thing when it comes to the modalities for keeping them competition ready. Everyone has their favourite, but we can also see what’s actually working.

We have the luxury of people coming in and saying, “Hey, I thought I’d get this into your corner.” They will come to the show and get set. We get to try these modalities. The horses will tell you what works. We can tell we’re feeding them write because their skin, hair, coat, changes, and also a change in attitude towards work and play. So, the same approach when it comes to keeping them fit and competition ready.

We share information with friends in different disciplines. “This works. This horse slept during it,” couldn’t be happier when it works. That’s pretty much [Laughing] what we do in our spare time.

Jacobsen: Others have sold their properties. How does this change the industry?

Merrin: There are properties very tight in this area. It keeps getting more expensive. What you get, there is a sense of unease. We are losing a lot of places that were not just for dressage, but for horses in general, keeping horses in general. It is far more lucrative to turn it into blueberries, Christmas trees, whatever.

Horses are for older ages. You are not so much working on the ranch anymore. There is a lot of uncertainty about the future of our sport in general, horse sport.

Jacobsen: What do you think, in terms of dressage compared to jumping, hunting, eventing, the sport?

Merrin: Dressage is a lot smaller in this area. It doesn’t attract a lot. It is deemed pish-posh and cold. That hasn’t been my experience. My personality would, probably, be more jumper. I came into contact with ladies in the sport. People who are incredible mentors for young girls. These girls drive big trucks and huge horses, and have them trained to move off the slightest push of a leg or a cluck.

I think that dressage in itself is a smaller community, but incredibly dedicated. It is the foundation. It is the basic thing. I have talked to jumpers. This is just dressage with obstacles.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I like that.

Merrin: It is the foundation. We just take it to a next level. I think it is a personality type that is attracted to it. There is adrenaline, but in a very different way. We are trying to avoid the adrenaline. We are trying give the picture of harmony and piece. Trust me, there is adrenaline going there. Jumping gets the numbers, gets the sponsors, gets the “ooh” and “ahh.”

Dressage, as a growing sport, is hard to get the young people in it. A lot of the ladies, maybe, that is part of its image issue when it comes to being stuck-up and detailed-oriented. They like things a certain.

Jacobsen: Is it also centralized in Europe, mainly?

Merrin: North America is pretty strong, but yes.

Jacobsen: Which countries in Europe?

Merrin: Germany and France, Holland, the Dutch are a very strong team. Again, it is the basis of all training, of anything you want to learn and do. There are strong dressage roots. It is just elevated, when you go past the basics. “I just want to stick in this sport.” Dressage is Europe.

Jacobsen: What are the types of horses that tend to work best for dressage?

Merrin: It is arguable. Every horse should be able to do dressage. At the upper levels, at the Olympics, you will see mainly warmbloods, Andalusians are coming along. There have been horses bred magnificently able to do multiple disciplines, but, I would have to say, the warmblood. It is a generic term. The Hanoverian, there are a couple of breeds. Every horse should be able to do it. That’s one of the bragging rights about dressage.

Jacobsen: Moya, thank you.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 25: Moya Byrne Merrin on Horse Care and Dressage Horses (2). September 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-2

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, September 8). The Greenhorn Chronicles 25: Moya Byrne Merrin on Horse Care and Dressage Horses (2). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 25: Moya Byrne Merrin on Horse Care and Dressage Horses (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 25: Moya Byrne Merrin on Horse Care and Dressage Horses (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 25: Moya Byrne Merrin on Horse Care and Dressage Horses (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (September 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 25: Moya Byrne Merrin on Horse Care and Dressage Horses (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-2>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 25: Moya Byrne Merrin on Horse Care and Dressage Horses (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-2>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 25: Moya Byrne Merrin on Horse Care and Dressage Horses (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-2.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 25: Moya Byrne Merrin on Horse Care and Dressage Horses (2) [Internet]. 2022 Sep; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-2

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-09-08

The Greenhorn Chronicles 24: Deborah Stacey on Math in the Equine (2)

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: E

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: “The Greenhorn Chronicles”

Individual Publication Date: September 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Deborah Stacey

Word Count: 2,242

Image Credit: Deborah Stacey.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

*Interview conducted July 7, 2022.*

Abstract

Deborah Stacey is the Founder & CEO of Horse Lover’s Math. Deborah Stacey is the founder and CEO of Horse Lover’s Math (HLM). HLM is an active website for kids ages 8 and up devoted to horses, math and science offering print and downloadable STEM resources and website posts and content that are free and open to everyone. Growing up horse crazy in the suburbs didn’t allow Deborah much opportunity to spend time with horses. She had to find other ways to feed her passion, which she did through reading horse books, drawing horses and watching every program and movie she could find. While in elementary school, she and a friend organized their own horse school, taking turns teaching each other about horses. They even had a chalkboard and gave lectures and tests. The fascination with horses remained strong through high school. After graduating, an opportunity arose to take English riding lessons near her family home. One day at the barn her riding instructor asked if she wanted to work as a groom at a small, private hunter and jumper stable outside of Montreal. She jumped at the chance. Around this time Humber College in Toronto started up a two-year horsemanship program. Deborah graduated with an Honours Degree in Horsemanship in the mid-seventies and went on to work with hunters and jumpers, at a hunter jumper breeding farm, and boarding stables with a focus on dressage. Years later, she had a family of her own and a daughter who loved horses. In school, her daughter struggled with math. One evening, in an effort to help her daughter understand a math word problem, Deborah changed the context from shopping for a bag of flour at the grocery store to buying bags of grain at a feed store. The math operations remained the same; price, decimals and multiplication, but the context changed, now it was about the real world of horses. Her daughter became curious. How much does a bag of oats cost? How does that price compare with beet pulp or sweet feed? She was engaged and she started asking questions. It was an exciting moment for Deborah to see what happens when a child who is struggling finds their passion; they become motivated, curious and open to learning. Using the math worksheets her daughter brought home from school as reference, Deborah started creating math questions based in the real world of horses. She began seeing math everywhere in her work with horses, and Horse Lover’s Math was born. You can find reviews on HLM Level 1 and Level 2, information on Teachers Pay Teachers on HLM Level 1 and Level 2 (Links). Leslie Christian, of Outschool, has been a collaborator with HLM. Stacey discusses: demographic differences; orders; starting the conversation; the cost-benefit analysis; and kids are taking away from these lessons.

Keywords: British Columbia, Canada, Deborah Stacey, equestrianism, Horse Lover’s Math, mathematics, The Greenhorn Chronicles, Township of Langley.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 24: Deborah Stacey on Math in the Equine (2)

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I wrote an article, recently, looking at another facet. I was thinking about it while I was gardening: the injuries of equestrianism. That’s a thing. As I found, 60%, according to government statistics, of injuries are just falling off the horse.

Deborah Stacey: [Laughing] Okay.

Jacobsen: They are mostly in the teen years, mostly girls. Teen years make sense because everyone is learning. Girls make sense because that is, probably, the biggest demographic for the industry.

Stacey: I know! It is such an interesting phenomenon. People have tried to explain why that is.

Jacobsen: I have heard one explanation, which is: In Europe, you find more boys out there because over in North America, especially in Canada; there is a cultural nuance of safe, nurturing environments where there is observation, care, training, to guiding girls in a safe environment. Where, in Western Europe, it is more of a survival of the fittest or has been more so in the past. They throw you on there. The boys survive. They become decent to great riders. That’s one hypothesis. I don’t have data to back that up. It has a certain intuitive narrative appeal.

Stacey: That demographic holds for the English disciplines, but the Western is where the demographic changes. There’s a lot more males involved there.

Jacobsen: That’s also another nuance. The difference between dressage and show jumping versus rodeo. Those are big demographic differences. Canada produces the best women show jumpers in the world: Erynn Ballard and Tiffany Foster are two of the top women in the world. [Laughing] I think, Erynn Ballard was #1 woman in the world for the first half of the year. Tiffany Foster will, probably, be the #1 woman in the world for the second half of the year [Laughing]. So, the injury research, minor, extraordinarily inconsequential to the injuries of the great riders. There are some data. I don’t how regular they are collected. So, they might be a little bit out of date from the Government of Canada or, at least, those who report them. Even the great riders, a decent hunk of them have almost had career-ending injuries.

Stacey: I would guess that that is more eventing and show jumping than dressage.

Jacobsen: 100%. I can’t say the name. But a good friend of mine, her sister fell off a horse and died. She is doing dressage now. I suspect dressage is a safer context to pursue a passion without having to pursue the PTSD from when her sister died. So, people have a myth or a misconception about equestrianism in that sense. They think it’s ultra-safe and just fancy people. But it’s like the misconception around cheerleading. Cheerleading, it has a 100% injury rate. You’re going to get injured.

Stacey: I believe you. I watched that Netflix series. I was blown away by that. I hear you. I can see how that is the case.

Jacobsen: So, we have these aspects to it. Anyway, for Horse Lover’s Math, if you’re thinking about applicability in a teacher context towards students, if they’re using your resources, how has the feedback been from them? How large are the class sizes and cohorts that they’re working with?

Stacey: I haven’t really received feedback from individual teachers. In order for Horse Lover’s Math to be officially promoted and featured by a school district, I have to approach the school district and make a presentation, which I have not done. So, individual teachers come across my resources and use them as they see fit. I can send you; I’ve got quite a few comments and reviews of homeschooling. It is a big market for me. With the pandemic, more families started homeschooling. So, that’s a focus of mine. It is homeschooling families. Homeschool Canada carries my books, for example. Rainbow Resource in the U.S., which services homeschool families and educators in general, carries my books.

So, I also sell downloads on a site called Teachers Pay Teachers. There have been some teachers who have left comments. [Ed. See links in the Abstract.].

Jacobsen: How is the distribution through those other networks? You’re not simply working through Langley.

Stacey: I’ve mailed books to Australia.

Jacobsen: Wow.

Stacey: I have print versions of the books. I sell downloads too. I sell more downloads than prints themselves, not surprisingly. I’ve come to the point where I let things grow organically. I am so grateful to have this project. It’s meaningful to me. Not only because I love horses, but, as we’ve just touched on, there are a lot of girls who are horse crazy girls. There is still a message that some girls are getting that girls aren’t good at math or STEM subjects. I’ve always been a feminist. Part of what I love about Horse Lover’s Math, it combines those two interests and passions. It is empowering girls and a love of horses. I continue to learn doing the research that I do. You, probably, know this as a writer and journalist.

In order to write something clearly, you really have to understand it. I enjoy that process, and enjoy continuing to learn, myself. So, not surprisingly, the sales or the distribution slows during the Summer. In the Fall, it picks up again. Then I put out a newsletter that is growing, which is, now, over 1,200 people. That’s not big [Laughing] for a newsletter in today’s social media world. I understand that. It’s growing. That’s the direction I want it to go. The website is now getting around 5,000 visits a month. That’s growing. So, I am glad about that. I just had my biggest order from Rainbow a couple of months ago. That was a total, between the Level 1 and the Level 2, of 135 books that I mailed out to them. That’s been my biggest 1-time order.

Jacobsen: Do you get 1-time orders that are modest in size, but are to ranches, barns, equestrian facilities, around the area?

Stacey: No, I haven’t. I think part of that is that they don’t just know about me. When Covid hit, I had been planning on approaching, going and visiting, these barns. As you said, Langley is the horse capital of B.C. There are hundreds, probably, of riding stables and offering lessons. I was planning on brochures and marketing stuff. Approaching and them, introducing myself, off showing what I have to offer, asking if they would be interested in including, maybe, a morning, often, they will have a week Summer camp.

Maybe, for one morning or one afternoon, that could be Horse Lover’s Math focused. I didn’t go ahead with Covid when that plan hit. So, I feel like things are opening up again. Certainly, they are. That’s on my future to-do list. So, my contacting you. That’s part of my exposing more people, trying to get the word out. That the resource is available. On the website, as I mentioned, the content, the posts, are free and open to everyone. Along with the workbooks, there are also worksheets. Three or four pages for download. Also, I’ve created crossword puzzles. One is a horses and math crossword puzzle. Another is a horses and science crossword puzzle. Also, cryptograms around the theme of horses.

One thing that I have learned, math is not just arithmetic. It’s reasoning. It’s pattern recognition. It is mathematical thinking. So, these cryptograms, while they’re not about numbers and plus-or-minus, it is mathematical thinking and reasoning. So, those are available for download. It’s like a $1.49 or something.

Jacobsen: Some of the areas of exploration in the first few months of doing this series. It is dealing with vulnerable populations, let’s say. The young, they wouldn’t be categorized necessarily as vulnerable and disadvantaged in a necessary way, but their age makes them properly under guardianship. So, vulnerable in that sense, but not in a mental degenerative sense or a physical incapability in another sense. It’s just they’re still developing. If we’re taking a context of teaching and mathematics for specified grades 4, 5, 6, with regards to equestrianism, how might some of these industries within Langley, even, integrate with one another to have programs together? Because I see a lot of separation among different communities.

It has been noted to me after doing some interviews, “Thank you for starting the conversation. This is so necessary.” It has me reflecting more on something that I didn’t even realize was a thing. Not simply the formal siloing of the different areas of horsemanship, that I could see as an amateur or a greenhorn. One thing I didn’t realize was the degree to which individuals who had been in the different industries for a long time don’t talk to one another.

Stacey: Is that because they are too busy within their own group? Or are you suggesting that there is some competitiveness between these different disciplines?

Jacobsen: I think it depends. The competitiveness, for sure, would be between barns in show jumping, eventing, etc., but on a more or less friendly basis. There’s, certainly, a lot of gossip. But I think between industries that have no necessary relation to one another or a competitive back-and-forth between one another in a formal setting such as FEI events. Maybe, as a consequence of it being a lifestyle, they are so enmeshed and dealing with the day-to-day maintenance, opening and closing of operations. Not having the energy or the focus to think creatively outside of their acreage.

Stacey: Maybe, part of that, too, is they don’t see the benefits for making that effort.

Jacobsen: Yes, what is the cost-benefit analysis of thinking of ideas, starting programs, reaching out to people who deal with equine therapy or veterans or horses vis-à-vis math? These are not necessarily on the dossier for the day about what time is hay, which horses don’t get hay and get cubes instead. These are much more immediate. Once that is done, by the time you’re done your day, you’re kind of tired.

Stacey: We all have a role to play. We’re also talking here about human nature. It’s not just within the equestrian community. You use the word “gossip.”

Jacobsen: Sure [Laughing].

Stacey: There is just the quintessential egoic mind games world at play.

Jacobsen: Certain times, I have seen very immediate, legitimate cause for concern and people helping one another. The floods were a recent example. People offering barns, stalls, apartments on their site, which are usually for workers, to help them make it through because their basement flooded through and their drywall is all worn out. All those things are great. The more subtle, long-term things that aren’t necessarily context dependent on the weather. Those sorts of networking. I think that’s a core part of what they’re saying about getting a conversation started because they haven’t said much beyond that, but they have said that a couple of times. It has made me think.

Stacey: That’s interesting, Scott. It makes me curious. I’m not expecting you to answer this right now. But it is another interesting question for you, to explore. What do they mean by that? What issues are they touching on? Where might this go? What is the need that they’re speaking to? I don’t really know. So, I am finding that an interesting anecdote.

Jacobsen: One issue breaking into two immediately across the country, probably different degrees in different provinces and territories: Where are the new farriers coming from? Where are the new generations of vets coming from? If you have rising land costs in Langley, as we have all experienced, rent goes up. Mortgage payments go up. All of it. It makes it more difficult with a large plot of land, trying to run an equestrian business. Yet, with that rise in cost, you still have to pay your staff. All the other fixed costs are there. So, even good businesses might have to sell the land, move elsewhere, similarly for core service infrastructure like vets, they might, if new and trying to start a business, might simply move somewhere else if it is easier to start a business.

Stacey: You mentioned, “Where are the new farriers coming from?” Is Kwantlen in Cloverdale still running their program?

Jacobsen: I haven’t looked into that, recently. I am aware of the program.

Stacey: I visited them a couple of times. I really enjoyed it. Off the top of my head, I can’t remember the man’s name who was running it at the time. They had a competition, where farriers from the States came up. They had a competition. He gifted me a box of different kinds of horse shoes, which I’ve used in one of my Horse Lover’s Math activities. Measuring the size, weighing, math, these kinds of things with the different sizes of horse shoes.

Jacobsen: So, I wasn’t aware of this until about a month ago. It took several months in the industry for someone, in passing really, mentioned that farriers have competitions. [Laughing] That’s fascinating to me. The fact your math stuff being integrated into that is also another testament to your work because it is showing the general observation that math, even basic math, is used in all aspects of the industries.

Stacey: Yes.

Jacobsen: What are you hoping kids are taking away from these lessons?

Stacey: More knowledge about horses and a love of learning.

Jacobsen: Deborah, thank you very much for the time today.

Stacey: Okay, thank you, Scott.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 24: Deborah Stacey on Math in the Equine (2). September 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-2

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, September 8). The Greenhorn Chronicles 24: Deborah Stacey on Math in the Equine (2). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 24: Deborah Stacey on Math in the Equine (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 24: Deborah Stacey on Math in the Equine (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 24: Deborah Stacey on Math in the Equine (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (September 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 24: Deborah Stacey on Math in the Equine (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-2>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 24: Deborah Stacey on Math in the Equine (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-2>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 24: Deborah Stacey on Math in the Equine (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-2.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 24: Deborah Stacey on Math in the Equine (2) [Internet]. 2022 Sep; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-2

License

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2022-09-02

Interview with President of Christian Heritage Party

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal (Unpublished)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/01

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, tell us a little bit about your family background and how they have been involved in Canada and how that has an influence on your own political interests as a youth?

Rod Taylor: I was born in the States. Both my parents were born in the States. Dad was born in Colorado and mom was born in Maine. When I was growing up, we attended Quaker meetings. Dad was a pacifist. Both of them were involved in social works on various levels.

We moved around with Dad’s work. We were in Minnesota. That’s where I was born, or Wisconsin, New Jersey. I changed my school in California within the New York state. So, dad was a Conscientious Objector in World War II, spent time in jail for refusing to participate with the system.

That was an interesting time. He then was involved in my younger years with the Civil rights movement with Martin Luther King; not with him, but attended some of the marches and things, that Martin Luther King was involved in.

Later on in the ‘60s, we were in Salamanca, New York, where the Seneca Indians were being flooded off land, land that had been promised to them by George Washington. It was the longest-standing two years and had not yet been broken.

Dad was defending them trying to prevent the flooding from taking place, but was unsuccessful. That was our introduction to Indian or First Nation issues in the United States. Later on, I finished my school at a Quaker boarding school in California, by that time mom and dad were planning to move to British Columbia, which they did.

I joined them when I graduated from high school in Vancouver and in British Columbia. Dad got involved increasingly with various environmental issues and First Nations’ issues that occupied him for the most of the rest of his life up to May 2002.

But it certainly influenced our family’s awareness of some of the issues in the country and environmental issues as well. By the time I left home, my saw travelled a bit and saw the country, both The United States and Canada.

I trekked back and forth across the country a few times, worked on farms. I was in community living for some time there, into gardening. That’s where I met my wife. She was a Christian when I met her, had become a Christian.

A few years later after we were married, I became a Christian too. That certainly influenced the way I looked at the world. We moved to Smithers, BC, where I worked in a lumber industry. Then we moved out to Alberta for 12 years, worked on the railroad’s track maintenance for about six of those years.

We went to Bible School for couple of years at Caroline, Alberta. Then in 1987, we moved back to Smithers area, northern BC. The next 22 years, I worked in the lumber industry and during that time in 1997 was when we first got involved with Christian Heritage Party.

And so, my wife went to a meeting one night. I was working night shift at saw mill. The next morning, she told me about some folks that want to do something in defense of innocent human life, in defense of traditional family values and freedom of speech and those kinds of things.

She felt it was a good thing for us to get involved with and we did. We were busy building a house and I was getting the hang of my working career in the lumber industry and became quality control supervisor. I was involved first in the union and later on in management in the lumber industry.

So, we have been involved for quite a number of years. In 2001, we had in the previous couple of years been involved in helping to organize a provincial party, the BC Unity Party, which was a coming together of five center-conservative parties: The Family Coalition Party of BC, The BC Party, Social Credit, and one other one that basically came together and formed a single party and that ran as a provincial candidate in Buckley Valley-Stikine in 2001.

None of our candidates were elected, but it was a good experience for me. From that point, I have been increasingly involved in politics and especially a few years later. I became a candidate for The Christian Heritage Party.

I have run a number of times there and in 2008 I became the Deputy Leader of the party. So, I was working in a mill. It was a voluntary position as a deputy leader, but shortly after I took on the role of Director for the party, which allowed me to do promotional work for the Christian Heritage Party full time across the country

In 2014, I became the leader’s party.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] You’ve been married to Elaine for 41 Years.

Taylor: It’s for 42 Year now.

Jacobsen: 42 Years. Congratulations!

Taylor: Thanks.

Jacobsen: You have two children and four grandchildren. That might have changed in the past year.

Taylor: No, it’s still the same.

Jacobsen: What perspective does having children and grandchildren, in other words lineage, on the future of a nation for you?

Taylor: It’s important; we don’t live for ourselves. I don’t mean Elaine and me, but people generally don’t live for themselves. This is by experience; we are the inheritors of the work. The labor, the traditions, and culture and love and care of those who’ve gone before.

We can also have fraternities to participate in; they’ve got a type of world that our children and grandchildren, and their children and grandchildren are going to inherit. There’s a lot of talk in the media or maybe in the parts of society that are leaving more focus on environmental issues.

There are talks about our environmental program, but about what a world we’re going to leave for our children in terms of pollution. Those types of things, which are certainly important. We have a legacy.

We have a planet. We want to pass it on in good shape, but we also have a little calm world environment. The society that our children and grandchildren will be living in. This freedom that we hope they will have the type of interactions they will have with their neighbors and those beyond borders to our international neighbors as well.

So, we have a short period of time as human beings. Even a strong person: but if we use a hundred years as an optimistic lifespan, 70 to a 100 years, we’re here for a short period of time. When we’re gone, we hope that we left a mark, and a positive mark, on the landscape; something that our children will appreciate.

Freedoms and opportunities that we can help create for them.

Jacobsen: Your personal values relate to not only thinking about future generations, but also standing for the innocent, the helpless, and freedom of speech. What’s the importance of these values to you?

Taylor: At some point, I’ll cross back into the world view. I have a Christian world view, but everyone has a religious world view and may not all call it that. But we believe that we are created for a purpose. That there is something beyond being born, punching the clock for so many years and being put into that dirt.

There’s the belief where God comes into play We have a responsibility. The opportunity to represent something beyond the 9 to 5 world. Something greater than the grief and struggle to maintain the physical existence.

So, for our children, we want them, and of course the children of this generation, to understand that they’re here for a purpose; something higher, we may name it your God, the opportunity to have positive interactions.

If we lived for ourselves then the survival of the fittest is the right way to live; get what you can, don’t worry about the other guy, find the ladder, enjoy all the things in life, and don’t worry about tomorrow, but our understanding of why we’re here is that God has put us here for His glory.

He has created mankind to have a relationship. He cares enough and that the creator of the universe cares enough to have a relationship with us and it’s ours to take. We are willing to participate in His plans.

Now, we can have a satisfying life if we want to live for ourselves which is over in a short period of time, but by cooperating with the One who has plans for us. We can be satisfied that we are contributing to an understanding of our fellow man, our children, grandchildren, and all others, but those who live around us.

If we give away human relationships, if we give away the value of human life, that is something beyond drawing your breath and pumping blood and tasting food for a short few years, then we have to look beyond that.

Otherwise, it could be a dismal existence. That’s why people who don’t think that way maybe tried to during their candidate experience as much as they can in this new year that we have here. That they don’t see something beyond the grave; we do believe there is life beyond the grave and soul.

We believe in everything from that promise. We have to look beyond our daily existence. Otherwise, we see around us in society, the plague and suicide. People trying to fill their soul as they’re trying to experience everything they can, whether it’s tasting things or feeling things or hearing things.

They’re trying to cram it all in. We believe that there’s things for us to experience beyond the grave that are far beyond what no one is supposed to experience here in this life.

Jacobsen: With that form of community, with that ultimate framework for a view on life, principles and values will be scripturally based, biblically based.

Taylor: That’s correct. I mean, we do believe that the Bible is God’s Word to man and that we are following – I don’t want to call it suggestions, but following – God’s directions. It is a way for us to safety, security, and happiness.

Ignoring what He has to say to us is basically ignoring the opportunity to be secure; so, I’m going to say no one inside agrees with that world view. Everyone has a worldview, but no one has a Christian world view.

We believe that when people ask us about the tie between our religious point of view and our political point of view. We believe that the things that God wants for mankind are good for all. So, it’s not a matter of trying to impose restrictions on people that will make their lives narrower and less enjoyable.

We want people to be free of disease. We don’t want people to be suffering. For instance, abortion is an issue we talk about a lot. There’s a lot of studies that show increased rates of breast cancer from abortion, especially in the first pregnancy.

So, when we are trying to save someone from some agony or an increase in depression or suicide following on a percentage basis, following abortion compared to those who fear the job or term, we think of broken home syndrome in this country.

It’s way out of control ever since the “No Fault Divorce” concept came in, but we think that imposes pain and suffering on children that they spend the rest of their lives trying to sort out when the two people that are most important in their lives – their mother and father – are no longer in a relationship.

We’re not saying that can always be avoided, but policies should lean towards encouraging families to stay together because it avoids pain. Those pains that are inflicted in childhood. Often, we see them come home in later life.

Children who’ve never witnessed a sustained marriage are probably more likely to fail in their own marriage. At times, they’re going to say, “My parents could not do it. So, maybe, it’s impossible to hold a family together.”

We take our guidance from the whole Bible. Itself is a big. It has lots of angles to it, instructions and important things, but first is to do to others as you would have them do unto you, love neighbor as yourself, honor God, have a reverence for the one who made you, and reverence and respect for your fellow human being.

If all of this is spiritual wisdom was followed, from man down to our society, if they lived according to those, we’d have a lot better society than we have today.

Jacobsen: With the foundation in Scripture in the Bible, in the death, burial, and resurrection of Christ, the final moral precept, ethical precept, of the Golden Rule exists there.

This can be taken at multiple scales, not only at the individual level, but with respect to how one treats oneself, as how one treats one’s neighbor, how one treats people that they happen to come across in the street, their own family, their community, their province or territory, and the larger society.

Does this perspective with the ethical precept of the Golden Rule at all levels in society impact at the parties’ positions?

Taylor: Sure. I mean, first example that comes to mind, is when we as a society or as a government do not spend money that has not yet been earned by the children of the next generation, or is stealing their money or spending money that they didn’t give permission.

They didn’t get to elect today’s politicians, but they’re going to have to pay the bills tomorrow. So, that is one example on income. Of course, our intervention or our attempt to intervene in the protection of innocent human life.

the child in the womb is my neighbor. So, to see a life shortened is something we should intervene in on an individual level, that becomes a suicidal issue at an individual level. We can speak to people as individuals.

We don’t have authority to tell people what they should do and indeed the strength of our influence should be persuasion rather than caution. We as Christians, Canadians, who care about other Canadians.

We should be getting better at our powers of persuasion and another angle to this is the family. The broader wings of our relationships, but self-government. everybody wants to be independent.

But if we will have a true self-government as individuals and restraining ourselves as opposed to restraining someone else, if all of us have that and we were all doing unto others that we would have done unto us, we would need as many rules and regulations, court cases, and people suing one another.

That only happens because were trying to assert our rights over somebody else’s rights. If we were caring about each other than on that level, it’s a pretty high standard price to set to love others as we love ourselves, but your neighbor’s fence line or whatever it is.

If we were doing that, we would need far fewer rules and regulations than we have today – than frankly the rules and regulations we have today. The laws aren’t doing it as it seems to be in many ways becoming more lawless.

There is more anarchy and more people doing the wrong things and not caring about others. Here comes a point where you can’t hire enough policemen to make sure there’s no graffiti, to make sure things don’t get broken at night. If you do hire enough policemen to do that, you can’t afford them.

Secondly, how are you going to ensure society, the individuals that make up our society, don’t have the law written in their heart or don’t have self-governance? How would we know that the policemen or the judges that takes the cases are going to judge properly?

So, we need to become a nation of people who are governed from within. Then we’ll be able to find the right people to govern from without or to oversee the peaceful, prosperous, and connected society.

Jacobsen: That freedom to speak and those anarchic tendencies with a fraying of social ties in society. It can reduce the amount of peace in the society. This goes back at least 2,500 years to Plato, when he was writing about these kinds of things.

The party has talked about “the high cost of a bloated and unaccountable bureaucracy.” How does this impact the working class especially with respect to a “sovereign national debt and an unsustainable tax burden”?

Taylor: Good. The bureaucracy, everyone has seen it grow. The number of civil servants. It can keep expanding, trying to cover what we need. When people count on government to do everything for them and nobody does that, but when people want government to do everything for them, we’ve put our trash can on the street.

Now, what if we want the government to come into our house and clean our house and take the trash out to the street? You can develop levels of dependence that are unsustainable. If people watch over the lock in front of their own house’s door, that’s another example.

That you don’t need some entire government set of personnel. I’m not saying that’s unnecessarily a bad thing, but those are examples. If we become a society, or maybe we are already a society, that requires a government agency to ensure that we’re not polluting a stream.

It could even be more than one agency. Maybe, it’s a federal level, provincial level, or a regional district. Then I have officers, staff, and vehicles and as opposed to individuals saying, “I’m going to be sure that I don’t pollute a stream.”

Maybe, they got people that are doing a great job of that and one person who doesn’t care, but because of that one person we have to create a government department to look after that. Everybody has to pay for it. Those are some levels of family.

If families would stay together, a whole lot of problems would go away or would be reduced at least, whereas now you need the court system to deal with family break down and so on. You need social workers.

So, it’s back to the point of taxes are unaffordable. Obviously, we’re having deficit year after year It’s also happening in the household. I wouldn’t go on forever because someone will come and take your house, right?

We can’t spend money that we don’t have; we can’t at least on an annual basis because of the potential for some great natural disaster. We have to spend a little bit more one year then another, but you have to pay it back the next year.

You can’t do what we’ve been doing over and over again. Now, we have a debt of six hundred and twenty billion looking something like seventy-one million dollars a day in interest. So, the interest payments and to our other costs.

It goes on and on, but it hasn’t been curtailed except for a few years. Then all that was saved in over ten years’ time has been re-spent again. So, it’s best to find out what are the important things that we can’t do without that requires taxpayers to cover the cost and to read the taxpayer magazine.

There are numerous examples of things that money gets spent on. even if you went to empty your salaries, some of the costs are going to CEOs of Crown Corporations and things like that. it’s always ridiculous.

Why would politicians vote themselves for those kinds of salaries when the average Canadian can’t support themselves? Sometimes, it’s hard for me to believe that politicians would have the brass to do that, but that’s where we’re at today.

A rough answer to your question, maybe if you need to redirect the question or reframe it, if you do that then I could try again [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] So, with respect to that response about government bureaucracy, the national debt, the tax burden on the working class, and so on, what would the Christian Heritage Party of Canada do to remove what it deems unnecessary red tape and other obstacles to success?

Taylor: We would have our own cabinet. We’d form a government. You have to go through line by line on what can we do without. At any end, you have to make some decision what can we live without. We have to do it as a family.

We can’t afford this particular item this year or this month. We have to do without. There’s no other way around it. Unfortunately, the difficulty for politicians in making those tough decisions is your decision affects somebody else. Since you require the relics of those people, of at least of some of them to get re-elected, that’s the trend: the downward trend.

It’s easy to promise people things on the way into office and hard to deliver them. If you’re promising to cut taxes, you have to say “then what are we not going to buy?” So, Thomas Jefferson said, “Democracy will only last until the people discover they can vote themselves money.”

Essentially, that’s where we’re at today is it’s easy to promise things and the public seems to be practically unaware that what is promised with one hand is being taken on their back pocket with the other one.

So, it is a challenge. We believe as Christian Heritage Party Christians that we need to be honest with people. We can’t promise things and then not deliver them, and promising things that we can’t afford will not be practical either.

So, we’re focused on cutting. We would pay off the national debt; the existing national debt, we will pay it off a mortgage, So, we’d save so much a month. Our monthly bill monthly mortgage payment is going against the national debt.

We wouldn’t implement a mandatory balanced budget. So, that it would be illegal to make a budget that was going to be a deficit budget with, I suppose, the exception of horrendous natural disaster or war. There are times when you have to make an exception.

So, this trouble when the exceptions become the norm or what constitutes a natural disaster. That’s a national disaster that it would warrant breaking your commitments, right? Now, we may have to go line by line. Where do we cut?

Give me one example where we wouldn’t be spending money on gay pride parades and all. I mean, that’s a relatively small example, but even under the Conservative government $400,000 went to the gay pride parade.

For something that we think is lowering the standards for Canadians contributing to disease and dysfunction. We’re adding to national woes instead of building the country up. Right now, I wouldn’t be spending the money that the Prime Minister has spent flying to participating in gay pride parades.

There’s the couple of hundred thousand dollars right there that can be saved. So, there are places to cut funds. The court system needs to be sped up. Of course, you can’t do that whether you have to or not.

Everything has to be done in the line of maintaining. You can’t compromise principles. Right now, it’s taking sometimes a couple years for a murder trial. It’s on everything. If you have no evidence and no suspects, that’s a different story.

But when all the evidence you’re ever going to have is before you. Why should things drag out for years and tie up a lot of people’s time and energy? They’re criminal. If there’s an innocent person accused, they deserve to have their name cleared; if there’s a guilty person accused, they deserve to come to grips with what they’ve done.

In case of murder, you can never bring a person. The person, even the guilty party, can become whole again, can become a productive member of society again. We believe in restitution. So, I’m getting into that platform as opposed to how we’re going to cut cost, but victims of property crimes need to be made whole again if it’s possible.

If the perpetrator can contribute to that person’s window being fixed or their car being restored or whatever’s happened, the money that was taken to be replaced. That should be first and foremost. It might reduce the number of things that are happening to people.

There are a lot of areas where cost can be cut. I see sometimes various forms of wasteful spending in highway construction, not always, but we notice quite often there’s an extra bit here and there.

Where it seems common sense should be enough to guide the day, that the driver should be able to figure out how to get past a place without having to have two people tell him how to do it, but everything has to be weighed in the balance for safety, security, and cost-effectiveness.

Jacobsen: Now, with respect to the demographics of the Christian Heritage Party, who are they? What are their general demographic stances, e.g. age, ethnicity, and so on?

Taylor: We probably don’t have any graphs and charts to show that exactly. So, my comments are pretty generic. The party was started in 1987 and many of our original members are still with us. Some have gone to be with the Lord already.

There was a gap where the families of the original members maybe didn’t see the results. Some are waiting to see that before they get involved and partly this is the pace of life. So, I’m going to say that our demographic is certainly older than ideal.

We would like to have a surging group of young members. We do have new members. Some middle-aged and young people joining our party. We need the party to grow, but there probably was a gap between those who originally saw the vision for the party and those who are the beneficiaries of a Christian worldview.

Our society’s freedoms and prosperity are a result of God’s blessing on this nation. The honor that He has historically been given and His principles have been given up until now, but no one in society, whether they’re in a church or out of a church, recognizes that.

And so, our side has gotten busy and volunteerism has taken a hit. So, many people have won the benefits of the society. We’re working for it, but maybe either through busyness or lack of understanding they haven’t committed the time to it.

So, it’s a challenge for us as far as the backgrounds; our founding members were Catholics and Protestants involved in the founding and still are. I would say the original membership was a large contingent from some of the Reformed churches.

The Christian reformed and other reformed churches and that still is probably the case. I would say across the country there are many of our long-standing members and hard-working members come from that background.

I would say in recent years those joining the party have come from a variety of backgrounds, Catholics and various streams of Evangelical Christianity. So, what else would you to know about demographics if I touched on it?

Jacobsen: So, my sense is as described: as with global Christianity, you have a wide representation of nationalities and ethnicities, backgrounds, ages, of course, because not only thousands but hundreds of millions of people adhere to scripture to one degree or another claiming Jesus as their Lord and Savior.

The party will represent that to a degree. So, that will inform both the perspectives; the people that join, the values and principles, and the platform and the policies that the party adheres to and advocates for.

Taylor: Yes, and, of course, we want to appeal to and we believe that we can basically represent those who belong or who are currently in other faith groupings as well. Our policies are based on a Christian worldview, but now we believe that same worldview too.

We do believe in freedom of religion. So, we promote freedom of religion for all in this country who being any faith and that includes no faith or those who, for instance, would maybe classify themselves as atheists and think that they only look at things from a scientific point of view.

We believe of course that science comes from the Bible or science is proven in the Bible and God created all the scientific laws. The interactions of chemicals and living things, but we believe that atheists should be allowed to proclaim their lack of belief in God.

It becomes a type of humanist that they believe in mankind and some of the staunch radical environmentalists have put the Earth at the top of the pinnacle on a level of priority, things to be maintained.

Earth and animal life sometimes even human life, but it’s a different worldview. But we consider that also a religious worldview and that’s of course in many cases a religious worldview that’s being taught in schools today.

When this discussion for the challenge between secularism and the Christian worldview is many cases being fought out in the classrooms or in the boardrooms that control the classrooms; There’s a worldview being taught in classrooms that we think is a religious worldview.

We think it doesn’t belong here. It’s not helping kids, but they’re a section of society – or at least certain groups within that society have been able to frame the issue as religion opposed to science. After creationism, did God create the world? Or did it all just happen?

They teach that it all happened and that’s a religious worldview, which we don’t think that it’s helping our nation to have our children indoctrinated with that religious worldview – the non-God the God view or non-God thing.

But anyway, it is a challenge to ensure that our commitment to religious freedom. That we don’t get walked on in the process, which has been happening for a number of years. The freedom that we’ve enjoyed in this country is now being twisted into some form of compulsion to participate in the belief system being promoted in schools.

That’s where we have a concern and we need to be able to frame that issue. So, that secular society can understand why we’re concerned. They think that we want to impose something on them; they never realize it that they are much more so imposing a worldview on us and on our children.

Jacobsen: With regards to the CHP and pro-life policy, it is noted that it is the only pro-life federal political party.

Taylor: Yes.

Jacobsen: In addition to the advocacy, teaching, and espousal of Judeo-Christian principles and values, one nuanced point might be of interest to readers at some point maybe a month, a year, or 5 or 10 years from now reading this; some will hyphenate Judeo-Christian-Islamic values or principles. Others will highlight Judeo alone. Others will highlight Judeo-Christian together.

Regardless, you note Judeo-Christian principles enshrined in the Canadian Constitution. Why Judeo-Christian in early 21st century rather than Judeo-Christian-Islamic?

Taylor: Thank you for that question. Of course, you take the Old Testament the New Testament together, they are considered the written Word of God. The Old Testament is the Judeo worldview up until the birth of Christ.

Yes, Jesus was a Jew, was born into a Jewish culture and brought, in our point of view, the fulfillment of the Jewish concept of the Messiah and, of course, while there may be a disagreement that not all Jews have accepted that point of view.

Still it’s the same, it’s the God of Abraham, Isaac, and Jacob. There’s a shared history right up to the birth of Christ at least. Of course, many Jews today are taking the next step as when he did in Jesus’s day and saying, “Oh! This is the Messiah,” which to us makes sense.

We think it’s the reality and that’s the reality we teach. Islam is based on a different prophet, the teachings of a different prophet; we disagree with the Islamic teachings. Now, of course, there are some pro-life points of view.

Finally, they also promote traditional marriage between one and one woman or between one man and four women. So, it begins to be a divergence there. But as far as sharing a pro-life value, we certainly support freedom for speech for Muslims in Canada.

As long as Muslims’ or any group’s teachings don’t result in attacks on others, then we’re fine with that, as around the world, there’s a lot of concern about Islamic terrorism. So, that’s a concern. I would find it a stretch to tie Islamic-Judeo-Christian worldview because there is a diversion on that one in many countries.

The Islamic focus is on killing Jews and Christians. We hope one day that that focus will be gone, but right now the teachings: it’s hard to relate to that and of course some of those are direct. They lean on direct quotes from the Quran in terms of not finding a Jew behind a rock and kill them and so on.

So, I don’t see how we would tie it together as a worldview. I certainly see how we can work together; those who are committed to protecting the family and protecting innocent human life. We would to work together and represent those values, and the freedom of religion.

I would have a hard time framing it as Islamic-Judeo-Christian, though. We believe in one God. That’s something that we share if there is only one God.

Jacobsen: In some of the ads for CHP, seven core point’s touched on. They are family values, traditional marriage, sanctity of life, free speech, freedom of religion, fiscal sanity, and accountable government.

I would like to explore each of those a little bit in some minor detail. So, in the order as presented, with respect to family values, these can mean different things to different people and different groups of local parties.

In general, though, within a Judeo-Christian worldview and set of principles, what are family values to you and to the CHP?

Taylor: Thank you. First of all, if we first recognize that the family has value, then there is value in the unit that we call a family. Now, Ontario passed the All Families Are Equal Act and, of course, they’re going somewhere different than when we say a family.

We are referring to husband and wife, one man one woman married with or without children. That’s what we consider a family. Now, there are situations where the husband dies. Then you have a single mother or the wife dies or there is unavoidable separation.

Then you have a broken family, still a family. It’s family with tremendous additional challenges. Every family has challenges. So, family values: there’s the value of having time together. There’s a value of mentorship, or fathers teaching their sons how to behave towards each other, how to behave towards outsiders, how to behave towards women.

There’s a value that is being passed on that is the value that other people have value. That you can play king of the hill in the backyard, but you have to care about other people if you want to have a life that it has its own dignity and value.

Mother’s teaching her daughters how to walk in a way that is purer; a way that protects that which God has given them. They have a special place, obviously. Mothers and women have a special place in our society, totally unrecognized.

Often, the value that the girls bring to the softening effect on what might otherwise be a selfish society. So, those are values: spending time together. Of course, all the things that parents do for their children: providing shelter, food, teaching them skills, teaching to read and tie their shoelaces.

All these details that go into the transference of skill, knowledge, and character one generation to the next. So, when we say family values, we also include, and most people understand when a Christian says family values we include, protection of innocent human life, the sanctity of marriage between one man and one woman.

Those types of things. The scripture says to honor your father and your mother. That’s a family value not to disrespect them. Parents have a responsibility to their children whether if you like it or not.

In the night, when the baby cries someone has to see to that infant’s cries. It’s a family value to make personal sacrifices for the good of your family members and, of course, it extends beyond your family unit, but that charity begins at home.

Are there other specific questions about family values?

Jacobsen: That covers the gamut that would be requisite with the question. The next in that order: number two was traditional marriage. What defines traditional marriage to you? Why is it important? What makes it a foundation for society; civil society?

Taylor: Traditional marriage is one man and one woman committed for life. Why is it important? That is the source where everyone being comes from; you need one man one woman. Of course, brothers and sisters are not always from the same man and the same woman depending on circumstances, but we all have in our DNA and our genes that it is one man and one woman.

It’s put there by God. God created Adam and Eve; first man and first woman, put them together. There’s symbolism also in Christ being represented as the bridegroom, the husband, waiting for the bride at the church.

Those who allow him to be joined to him. There’s more of a spiritual or mystical parallel that God has designed the family. If we want His blessing on our homes, His peace, His provision and in our communities, we should be following His footsteps.

No matter what people claim as far as their lifestyle. Their acquired gender, whatever the gender leanings or whatever. Every one of them also came from one man one woman. Nobody got here any other way.

So, it is the building block literally of society. Our DNA reflects our lineage that goes back through one man one woman. Each of them came from one man one woman; each of them came from one man one woman till you come all the way back to Adam and Eve.

So, that’s between that and God’s direction. That’s good enough for me.

Jacobsen: Thank you. The third on that list was the sanctity of life. This might require some follow-up questions to suss out the nuances here because it is a topic of still deep discussion, not only contention, but nuanced discussion with probably too much stereotyping on many of the sides that are taken into consideration for it.

So, with respect to the sanctity of life, let’s start with definitions. What is sanctity to you? What defines life to you?

Taylor: Okay. Let’s set apart their definitions along those lines, sanctity – or being sanctified – is to be set apart, it’s special. What we’re saying here is that human life is special compared to animal life.

Most of us are meat eaters. Those who aren’t they consider all animal life sanctified, but we regard human life as made in the image of God according to the Bible. He made all the creatures. All plant life: the fish, the birds, and everything else, bugs, but human beings were the last creation.

He said it was good. So, He has made us in His image, which, of course, doesn’t mean everyone looks at some a cartoon stereotype of God sitting on a throne that we know can only vaguely imagine or dream about, but we’re made by Him.

That we have creativity. We have the ability to love, the ability to think and plan. We have the ability to design and interact with the design. We can take things and build things out of them. Of course, God made everything from nothing.

God made everything, but He’s given us stuff to work with. So, God brings us into the world; we believe that even at conception that in a man and woman there’s a child created and, under normal circumstances, goes through the cycle of life: is born, grows as a period of productivity, then midlife, old age, and hopefully is still finding a useful role even in old age as a mentor or something.

Then we pass from this Earth, and then we go to a better place if we know the Lord. So, in Canadian society, there is one stream of activity. God does not want us to cut off someone’s life at any stage, whether it’s a child in womb or a child in society – we’ll all agree – such as leaving a child in a hot car.

It dies. It’s terrible. You go to jail for that. But a few months earlier, you take a knife and cut a baby out of its mother’s womb and then it is somehow alright. Of course, what with euthanasia, that has now become so-called legal in Canada.

We think it’s still illegal in God’s eyes, but to end someone’s life prematurely before God has called them; we think that’s not our place to do that. So, sanctity of life: there’s another angle. It needs to be brought off that we’re made in His image for his purpose, for his pleasure.

We are human beings set apart from the rest of the animal kingdom, we have a special role It pleases God while we treat human life as with the same respect that it deserves.

Jacobsen: You mentioned euthanasia as well. What would the CHP do in terms of laws and practices for both euthanasia and abortion within Canada? What would be the stance in other words?

Taylor: If we had a majority government tomorrow, then a practical way to the end to abortion and euthanasia would be a goal. The reality is at this point in time our role is to provide persuasive influence.

Even if we have members of Parliament, a handful of members, we could only appeal to the deeper nature or the higher nature of fellow MPs. Even if you have a majority government, you have to educate the public on some things.

You can’t impose, but, on the other hand, there’s a responsibility to take steps to persuade. One of my concerns was Prime Minister Harper over the years when he said that if people wanted to reduce the number of abortions then you need to change hearts not laws.

In other words, he said I’m not going to do anything in that direction. That other people need to change hearts. You are the Prime Minister. You could at least speak to the young people and educate young people and encourage young people to consider the details, the facts.

So, there’s the education aspect of it. Here’s the practical steps we would be taking with abortion, this Parliament, the past Parliament, were unwilling to take the simplest steps that could be taken to outline gender related abortion killing of young girls at a higher rate than killing young boys because they want a boy.

Some have a girl killed by abortion. Most Canadians think that’s wrong. Of course, it’s a slice in the face of much feminist rhetoric. Here’s little girls being killed, then boys aren’t, but Parliament has avoided that question and is not willing to take it on.

So, we’ve introduced that legislation to have a specific thing that societies agree is wrong. We would want to defund that version. Why should so many people who have deeply held beliefs about it be forced to pay for it and to enable the ongoing slaughter of a hundred thousand babies a year while making abortionists rich?

So, that would be another thing in both BC and Ontario. Those two provinces, you can’t even find out the statistics about abortion, which is a violation of freedom of information. People’s taxes are being used for that and being called healthcare, but they can’t find out how many are being done, what reasons they are being done for, and what the demographics are in the end.

They can’t even find out the bad results. There’s a breast cancer link to abortion. These things are even being shared with people. So, women are undergoing abortions without having adequate information. So, they’re not even having informed choice.

Then we would come against coercion to have an abortion, which has been tried a couple times in the previous governments. But where many girls, sometimes about 60% have abortions because their boyfriend or husband or their parents or peers are almost compelling them to have an abortion.

We would take steps to, I suppose, put an end to that. That would free a lot of babies right away. On Euthanasia, we think it was a terrible ruling, a couple things need to happen; number one, government needs to start using the notwithstanding clause; federal government never has.

When the Supreme Court ruled that the law against assisted suicide was unconstitutional, that’s the ruling. These are nine fallible human beings; they’re not perfect. They never were perfect. The government did not have to accept that.

The government should have gone back to using the notwithstanding clause and stood up for protection of innocent human life, but the government didn’t. The government allowed the Supreme Court to set the stage.

Of course, there’s a lot of pressure in that direction already, but what many people or countries have not grasped is the extent to which the euthanasia bandwagon is being driven by those who simply want to cut hospital costs for old people.

It’s a known fact that elderly people consume a lot; in your final year, you consume more healthcare dollars than when you’re young and healthy. So, for governments that are struggling to make ends meet, it’s convenient when people’s health is failing to give them a way out because it frees up a hospital bed and saves money.

That’s a terrible reason to end somebody’s life, but it’s part of the driver there. So, one of the things we would do for both – Euthanasia and abortion – for doctors involved in surgery and for educators: conscience legislation.

Canadians, whether doctors, lawyers, or teachers, should not be compelled to do things against their conscience. No doctors should have to participate even in recommending an abortion when they know in their heart of hearts that they’re violating God’s principles.

No teacher should be forced to teach sexual perversion as an alternate lifestyle when they know that that is a violation of God’s will and as from your own conscience. Right now, we don’t have conscientious objection in this country. We need to have it. So, that’s one of the things the CHP would strive for.

Jacobsen: Thank you. What do you see as the state of free speech within Canada? Do you think it needs amendments or is it fine as is?

Taylor: Freedom of speech is under attack. Ontario’s past legislation that taking mother and father off government documents is ridiculous. I can’t think of a more ridiculous blurring of lines between reality and fantasy.

Jordan Peterson, University of Toronto (U of T), is fighting for his career because he refuses to use a new language to refer to people who he knows are men and women, or boys and girls, and he’s being told that he must be willing to use different pronouns instead of “he” and “her” or whatever.

He refused to do that. He is taking a principled and difficult to understand position. A teacher in British Columbia was fired for mentioning in class, in a casual passing manner. Of course, when another discussion mentioned that he was opposed to abortion, a complaint was filed by one student and that man has lost his job.

This is ridiculous, especially when he was right; but regardless, freedom of speech needs to be protected. Trudeau has introduced Bill C-16. He’s sitting in the Senate now. That makes it dicey to talk about sexual preferences, sexual lifestyles, so-called genders, transgender-ism, any of those things, and to make any statements that are not supportive of them.

For instance, speaking about the negative health impacts of the homosexual lifestyle, they could be under attack. We’ve seen that years ago already, where there were pint-sized Human Rights Commissions.

Alberta for being a so-called hate speech people. It was the accurate relaying of a research study done by a university regarding the health impacts of homosexuality and to not be able to discuss those things is absurd.

We need to fight for these things soon and quickly and effectively because once freedom of speech is gone. I look at it. Life is the top priority. If you don’t have life, then none of your other rights matter and freedom of speech is next.

Because if you don’t have freedom of speech, you can’t defend. But again, you have your other rights including the right to life. So, we need to have absolute freedom of speech. That is not the freedom to tell lies.

That is the freedom to express your opinion. Without that, of course, we regard this as almost demonic. I can’t or don’t want to say that there’s a spiritual struggle or attack against those who oppose our worldview and who oppose it aggressively and viciously.

But we find ourselves having to take this road to try to stop our free speech because when you have free speech you might persuade someone to think differently. But if you take away free speech, then you can coerce people like Hitler did, or Chairman Mao.

You can make everyone say the same things. Those you won’t say the things are out. They are either dead or in prison. Mary Wagner was arrested again for bringing roses into an abortion clinics’ waiting room and for the ladies offering prayer for them.

She would to be able to speak freely in her independence in her life. She’s denied that merit to Linda Gibbons earlier. Linda has spent over ten years in jail for standing in front of that abortion clinic.

That’s the free speech right that’s being denied. Bill who went in the Gay Pride Parade in disguise and handed out some information there. No one agrees with his tactics, but he’s being sued for a 104 million dollars by gay rights people.

Even Prime Minister Trudeau and Kathleen Wynne have joined that [Laughing], the guy may not have a 104 dollars at any one time but anyway. The freedom to speech is definitely under attack.

Jacobsen: With respect to freedom of speech within a multi-party pluralistic democratic society, it seems like the glue. The grease of the wheels – so to speak – in terms of furthering discussion about topics between parties, between demographics.

With that threat to freedom of speech where people might feel offended, it is a two-way street. In a way, if you can’t tell someone what to say, in another way, then you can’t tell someone else what to say in return or feel in return to that.

So, someone can say something that is either pro-choice or pro-life, someone might feel offended by either position or they can respond with the opposing position, but to restrict either a pro-life or pro-choice position would be an illegitimate restriction on freedom of speech from your own perspective as the representative of the CHP.

Is that a fair representation?

Taylor: That’s fair. We don’t go around trying to interfere with those who have a different point of view. We would be able to offer our point of view and many of our positions are now represented by government. So, they have not only our approval.

We’re also paying for them as there comes a point where I shouldn’t be forced to pay for someone else’s stuff, for their – what I consider – faulty things. We elect to government. They do certain things, but, for instance, this goes into a slightly different realm.

But in political parties in the last election of 2015, because the Liberals and the Conservatives each got over 10% of the vote with parties which they spent respectively, the Liberals spent $43 million and the Conservatives spent $41 million during the campaign.

They will get 50% of that money back from the taxpayers. I’m not sure when they get it, though. So, $20 million dollars of taxpayer’s money is going into the Conservative coffers. The same amount going to the Liberal coffers.

They are able to use that money to promote not only the party, but their point of view. I’m not getting [Laughing] that money would we ever achieve that 10% threshold. So, we don’t receive the old money back after an election.

That’s an example of how it got off on the side track there, but I don’t like my money being used against me. So, when there was the send out with this electoral reform card, it’s a terrible card. The website is terrible. Their questions are terrible.

There’s questions with two answers and neither one is the right answer. At the end, they tell you you’re an innovator or you’re a guard or something like that. You wanted examples of waste of money, where we could cut a bloated bureaucracy.

That would be one right there, conducting those meetings across the country trying to give us Canadians the idea that we were being consulted and in the end they keep the cards close to their chest and do their own thing anyway.

But freedom, yes, I’ll give you a local example here. I’m on the Smithers Pro-Life Society for years and years. They’ve put billboards up in our area and for years and years somebody comes along at night and paints them over, tears them down, tries to burn them, or cuts them down, or pulls them down with the vehicle.

That’s not their property. It’s free speech. It’s also a matter of private property, going on someone’s private property and damaging something that belongs to someone else. So, we’re not running around pulling down their stuff.

The reality is some people feel so strongly about these issues that they then use any means. They don’t care if you get to say your speech because they don’t agree with you. They don’t want people to hear what you have to say.

So, another way of putting it is, you only have freedom of speech if people can hear what you’re saying. There are numerous cases of Pro-Life speakers at universities being shouted down to get rid of them.

It’s not the matter of standing there with signs and expressing their different opinion. It’s a matter of making so much noise that the person cannot speak. So, pretty much speech is important and if we don’t have it, we will have mob rule. We’re probably not far from mob rule in some cases.

Jacobsen: Now, I want to touch on the fifth point we’ve listed before, which was freedom of religion. What is the importance of freedom of religion in Canada? How does Canada’s freedom of religion provide a marker for the world in how to do things? What are we doing well with respect to it? What are we doing poorly with respect to it?

Taylor: Okay. As our Charter of Rights and Freedoms begins with the Preamble to Canada’s founding principles that recognizes premise, you’ve got a rule law. Such a statement by government, at one time, it was believed by all levels of government that there is a religious foundation to our society and to our laws and so on.

That foundation for the Government of Canada, it was a Christian foundation. It wasn’t a generic religious foundation. It was evident. They the name ‘The Dominion of Canada’ came from Psalm 73. The description, it was a specific reference to the God of the Bible.

But in our memory, there’s not been a persecution of a religious minorities in our memories. There have been in Canada, for sure, especially some of the First Nations. Certainly, you add these cultural practices that may have had religious connotations that were banned and so on.

But that’s not been a big part of our history. In China, you have the Falun Gong or along with Christians being thrown in jail sometimes even being sacrificed for body parts to be sold on the world market.

It’s a religious minority that the Chinese government does not want. As to what do we do in this country, I’m giving you some examples from other countries. Many of the Islamic countries. If you are a Muslim and you become a Christian, you are subject to the death penalty for that.

That’s now so far removed from what happens in Canada that it’s hard to even imagine, but any Christian can become a Buddhist, a Hindu, a Muslim, an atheist and walk the streets of this country. We’re not going to be thrown in jail for changing religion.

So, we have that level of religious freedom in this country. We have had, of course, with our churches; churches have been considered places where it’s accepted and expected that the teachings of a particular religion will dominate in all the Christian schools and so on.

That’s also allowed, but pressures are coming as in the places within the province of Alberta, wanting to force different standards on Christian schools than have been in the past, wanting to force in teachings about gay rights and positions that aren’t based biblically at all.

It’s a Christian school; it’s not a non-Christian school. So, that’s where freedom of religion and freedom of speech are mingling and mixing there. The one father complained because in Toronto his child had some other religious view being brought to them in class.

There are these places where there are schools that have Islamic prayer rooms, but they don’t have Christian prayer rooms. There’s a case in BC with cultural or religious practices of Aloha First Nations.

There was an activity in class and all the students were supposed to participate in it. Parents complained and, of course, that’s now how you’re being accused of racism or similar stuff; whereas, all the person was saying is that we have our own religious place.

We don’t need things imposed on us and schools. The foundation of the country is Christian religion. If there was ever an area of overlap in free speech and to not have anything imposed, to stand in Parliament and speak the name of Jesus, should be all right in my opinion, I’m sure it would take flak.

We would receive flak, but because of our foundation there is fiction for allowing Christian prayers and Christian references. The wall has affirmative Christian verses written on them. I do not fear the attempts.

It is going to be unsuccessful; the attempt to purge any religious statements from any public presentations. You can’t do it because we are all religious beings. I said even an atheist has religion. They will express that publicly. An atheist will get up and say there is no God.

That’s a religious statement. I would say it’s a challenge. It’s going to be a challenge. It already is for people in the Christian Heritage Party, but for all those who are involved in social activities or social activism of any sort.

Pro-Life or other activities to try to present our views in such a way that they can be understood and appreciated by society at large without stepping on toes and a lot of the challenges are unreasonable challenges.

People coming against you for having a manger scene, right? It is a pluralistic society. It’s a multifaceted society. We need to get along, but I honestly think the best way to get along would be to back up quite a few steps to where there is a respect for guidelines and commands that He’s given for all of us to have happy and successful lives.

Jacobsen: As we talked a bit on fiscal sanity, which is the sixth point, the proposition by implication is a solution to a problem; where fiscal insanity is the problem, fiscal sanity is the solution.

In brief, as we have touched on this a little before, what is the fiscal insanity of the current moment? What is the fiscal sanity proposition?

Taylor: Fiscal insanity here, cutting it short, is spending money we don’t have, pretending that money comes out of thin air [Laughing]. Yes, it does because of our banking system. Money is created out of thin air.

Money wanted to create or reduce debt, but to spend money that we cannot recover from our tax base and to do that year after year is fiscal insanity. To send four hundred thousand dollars to a gay pride parade is an example of fiscal insanity, we should promote the use of the Bank of Canada.

Right now, we’re borrowing from chartered banks, which are making a profit on the borrowing and when we have to repay them we’re repaying privately owned banks. We do have a government owned bank. It’s called The Bank of Canada.

We should be using it. Our national proposal is to use it for infrastructure renewal. We think they can go much beyond that, but that would be a place to start. So, provinces, municipalities, and Crown corporations that have need for, not wishful thinking but a need for, infrastructure renewal or development to be rail lines, optics, fiber optics, ports, canals, highways, sewage treatment, there’s a lot of airports.

Things where there needs to be a significant amount of money spent to achieve a long-range goal as we paid off over the years and will have a residual benefit for all Canadians that they would be able to borrow from the Bank of Canada interest free to accomplish those objectives.

It would put people to work. It would accomplish a real solid task. Is that any pie in the sky? At the end of it, you have an airport or you have a railway extension. They would. It’s not a grant from the federal government. It’s a loan.

So, as it’s repaid, the money would be retired for circulation. So, we wouldn’t have a long-range inflationary impact. So, we think that’s fiscal insanity to go on borrowing money and paying interest to China or to other international banks.

So, that they can use our interest payments to go build their world-class Navy. We think that is insanity. Things that are going on. Ontario is an example. Ontario is building wind farms when Ontario doesn’t need the power, paying extravagant amounts of money for wind and solar power when they have reliable and affordable power.

Then selling that power to the United States at loss or to go back at loss; now, that’s insanity. That’s doing things for political impact not for any common-sense objective. We would want to put an end to those kinds of things.

Paying doctors to kill babies then because we don’t have enough for our own people growing up in our country that we have to fast-track the immigration to try to bring in people that can fill the jobs because we’ve killed off a hundred thousand babies a year or formally knock off four million babies.

It’s not only moral insanity, but it’s fiscal insanity. Then we’re paying for the immigration benefits and all kinds of things that could have been invested in babies that should have been born here. So, many examples of the insanity. The sanity would be a small cabinet, reduced salaries for MPs, for bringing government employees at all levels into a pension regime that is comfortable to most Canadians.

Not having a special pension arrangement for MPs and government workers; those are the areas for improvement there. And to stop throwing money at political parties, but to raise their own money, that’s what we’re doing now.

We think if all parties were doing that it would reduce some of the clutter in the political world and probably get better results than now.

Jacobsen: Your final point was accountable government. Some of these statements prior imply what that means. As a general principle, what would make an accountable government? What would the CHP do to keep itself accountable if in government?

Taylor: That’s a good follow-up question. Accountable government, we find anything many Canadians feel that once a government is elected, then everybody wants your votes and wants your support and everything else, but once a government is in power they seem to do their own thing.

When same-sex marriage passed in 2005, I have no doubt in my mind that that would not have passed a national referendum, but it was overseen by government. They are accountable right now as Bill C-16 went through second reading, went to committee, they had no hearings; they didn’t want it to be discussed at length by the public.

So, they ignored the chance to have bill input and from people who have knowledge and wisdom. Nobody held them accountable, we raised the question, but they carry on as if it’s their right. They have been elected. They have a majority government and so they’ll do what they want.

If you don’t it, it’s tough. So, how would the CHP keep ourselves accountable? Yes, that’s a good question. Basically, it goes down to human character; it goes down to the character of men and women who make the decisions.

If you don’t put something in place, for instance, if there is a federal recall, they still have it in BC. Recall and citizens’ initiative legislation, that was successfully used in turning back the HST. It was introduced by the provincial government. Although, it was quite a challenge to get the number of signatures required and so on.

I understand the former premier was part of that movement and succeeded in turning back something that the government had done on its own and unaccountably because it’s that they weren’t going to do it in the election.

Then since the election was over, they passed it. So, there’s an example and maybe some new additional emphasis that way federally could be implemented, e.g. first referendums and things that are difficult and costly to put into place.

Some people think we should have referendum on everything. I don’t agree with that. If we do elect a representative government, I’ll say that our party is committed to our principles. If attaining power was more important to us than principles, we would probably do what Conservatives have done and take a more moderate approach some of these issues.

We believe it’s important to protect innocent human life. These types of things. We’re going to tell people on the way in because if we don’t say it when we’re running for office we won’t have a mandate to do it once we’re elected.

Any government and any number of Parliaments. If they’ve told people they are going to do something, they should do it when they get in. So, other than the possibility of introducing some recall and initiative legislation on a federal level I don’t have a real strong answer for that.

Jacobsen: When I reflect on the conversation today, the core principles and values come from Christianity. In particular, biblical and scriptural firm interpretation with respect to values and principles. The core ones would be things including the Golden Rule.

Now, you have noted that there have been restrictions on freedom of speech, whether de-platforming, for instance, of people that are Pro-Life in terms of speaking at certain events – whether on campuses or elsewhere.

What relates those seems to me bias against what would be the majority of Canadians, it would be where the majority of Canadians are, if combining Catholics and Protestants, about 70% of the population, which is several million people.

Does bias or prejudice and bigotry against – not ideological differences based on argument and evidence and so not against ideas and principles and things within Christianity but rather against – individual Christians or sects of Christianity, groups of Christians? Does that seem to you an increasing trend in Canada over the last decade or two?

Taylor: Absolutely… The stakes are heating up in that way. The material points are becoming much more sensitive. Certainly, the trend that has become less tolerant of the Christian worldview. It’s a powerful trend. We’ve seen it always where someone doesn’t want to bake a cake for somebody or whatever.

The intolerance, I would say a lot of it begins with a movement. Some activism that usually results in a court case somewhere or a human rights case. That gets built into these government documents. For instance, the taking out mother and father, but then it gets into the education system.

Of course, that’s where the rubber meets the road, but the media – and it is not only the news media, of course, but CBC has been indoctrinator extraordinaire in this country for many years at our expense again.

My money being used to convince people that I’m wrong [Laughing]. Our money, our taxpayer money, being used to promote alternate sexual lifestyles, for motives or something like that. Then by the time when you get into the classroom, teachers are supposed to be teaching children, number one: there’s no God because evolution is the means by which we got here.

I could go down the road on environmental issues and carbon. There’s no sin except producing carbon, right? But then making it so that a teacher can’t even speak their own beliefs in the classroom and children being badgered to believe things that their parents don’t believe, by the time this generation that’s now in kindergarten and grade one graduate from high school and universities – unless there’s been dramatic shift – a lot of the freedoms will be left behind.

It wouldn’t take that long. Unless, we have a major societal repentance or awakening, which is possible. We pray for that. We work for that. But if the trend we’re on right now, free speech is being hindered dramatically.

When we lose that ability to speak the truth in our society, we can take historical examples. Germany collapsed in a short period of time, where the freedoms were gone in a short period of time and today we see them to be closing the doors, closing the gates all around us and trying to limit and restrict.

That’s why we’re speaking up urgently today to try to wake people up before it’s too late because once the freedom of speech is gone the government is free to enact laws and nobody dares say anything about it because they’ll be thrown into a cell and we don’t want to get thrown in the cell [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] what political parties align in values most with your own?

Taylor: We share some things with the libertarians. We want smaller government and the difference is that we see there is a need for self-government. As a fair libertarian, you want to deal with whatever you want. That’s not our point. That’s not freedom.

That’s becoming a slave to passions and fads or whatever. But if it’s, for instance, libertarians want to be able to smoke pot. Then you’re becoming a slave to something else besides government, but when we do agree that government should restrict its reach.

We believe that we should protect people from harm. It should provide weights and balances. It has to be the intermediary between nations for international trade and security and things like that, but government should not try to be all things to all people.

It can’t be the sugar daddy for everyone that wishes their life were different. The government has to treat all people the same. That’s the second part of the Preamble De Chartres is Canada’s thought on principles that recognizes the supremacy of God.

We know that. But then the rule of law; So, the rule of law is to treat all peoples the same. If in this country, if you’re from one of the first nations, you aren’t treated the same as others; if you’re right now in one of the alternative sexual lifestyles, you can do and say things, e.g., a man who claims to be transgender can go into women’s washroom.

There’s no way to prove that he has a reason. It’s his own statement. But a man who says, “No, I’m a man,” could not. They may be the same person, but it was with this political correctness being afraid to call a spade a spade.

It was refraining of being afraid to call a man a man and a woman a woman. We’re getting into all kinds of crazy stuff. So, the protection for women and girls to have their privacy is being thrown away in order to placate something less than 1% of the population and is being done for political agendas.

Nothing is being done anything because the people are feeling uncomfortable. They’re making more than 99% uncomfortable to accomplish protocol objectives and we object to that and our right to say that is under attack.

Jacobsen: And any feelings or thoughts and conclusion about what we’ve talked about today?

Taylor: You’ve taken me on a good course through our party. Our publicly stated principles. I have enjoyed wandering over those grassy fields [Laughing] and rocky meadows wherever. Those are the main things that people need to know.

In my personal reflections, if I conveyed much except that I came from a place and I want people at some point to realize, especially those who may disagree with our points of view on things or may not want our points of view to be represented in Parliament, that I came from a place of being a non-Christian.

An atheist, basically, a person who was following my own will; everything that can be wrong in a person in his selfishness, self-centeredness, or whatever. As a young person, many young people do have a self-focus, but a change of place of realizing that there’s a whole lot more that we’re not here by accident.

We’re not here by our own efforts; we’re here for a purpose. I’m grateful that God rescued me from my narrow world view and introduced me to His view of whole of this planet we call Earth and our interactions as human beings.

I’m grateful for the opportunity to speak these things in the public square. We still have that freedom today; we need to maintain it. We don’t know what is the future that God has for us as individuals or as a party.

How many years we have on this earth? We’re here for a limited period of time. The party, we’ve been here for 30 years. We’ve never yet elected someone to office. We believe that is still possible. We work towards that. I totally work towards the end of having members elected and bringing our principles right into Parliament.

If that were to never happen, we still have the opportunity to speak truth to our friends and neighbors and in the political realm there is a platform from which we can bring truth, especially young people, many young people, are not getting at home.

Many of them do not go to church. They’re not getting it from the media. They are not getting it in the universities, not getting it from the courts. So, we have a unique opportunity to speak some things, to tell young people that they’re made for a purpose.

That God has plans for them, good plans for them and for this country if we will labor His footsteps and follow them, if we pay attention to the Golden Rule ‘Do unto others as you’d have them do unto you.’

So, I do have hope that we can fulfill the plan and purpose God has for us. We don’t know exactly what that looks in Parliament, but I have a verse: ‘faith is the substance of things hoped for the evidence of things not yet seen.’

So, we hope things that we have not yet seen. We work towards them. We believe that God has plans that are better than our plans. That we’ll be excited to see how He leads us and what He does in and through us in the years to come.

I have met not all the leaders, but most are not leaders of the parties but people who are involved in running their parties. Some of the smaller parties I have met the leaders. Other parties, I meet some of the operatives who help their party, the purpose of those meetings is to keep us all functioning within the guidelines of Elections Canada and maybe occasionally to have some feedback or input into how Elections Canada does their work.

There’s nobody else who’s standing up for Pro-Life issues, sad state.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, thank you much for this opportunity.

Taylor: [Laughing] I hope to meet you one day. Anyway, I’m pleased that you would take time to do this interview. I wish you all success in all the other endeavors, which, first thing, you must never sleep.

So, let’s stay in touch and God bless you and thanks again.

Jacobsen: I enjoyed doing this much. So, thank you much for your time, and I hope you have a good evening.

Taylor: Thanks a lot.

Jacobsen: Take care.

Taylor: God bless. Bye.

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2022-09-02

Interview with First, and Only, Woman (Former) Canadian Prime Minister

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal (Unpublished)

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018

*Interview in two sessions March 19, 2018 and May 22, 2018.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You require little introduction. In your own words, what was family life for you, e.g., the political conversations arising around the table? Was there influence on personal interest in politics early in life?

Rt. Hon. Kim Campbell: I grew up in a non-political family. My parents both voted. They were good citizens, but neither was involved in a political party. I am a black sheep of the family. I am the first member of the family to become involved in running for public office.

Jacobsen: That is interesting. You were a leader in student politics in high school too. One thing noteworthy in early life. You took on the name “Kim.” I note an independent streak. Someone who speaks and asserts herself.

Campbell: I was always an independent person. I was encouraged by both of my parents to go for if I wanted to do things and to take on challenges. I changed my name at 13 because of the trauma of losing my mother.

She thought of naming me Kim. She named me Avril, so I shared my first name with her in a way that was painful. It was my way of dealing with a great childhood sadness, to take a different name.

Jacobsen: In your earlier political career, some issues were more poignant to women’s progress and empowerment. They relate to issues of women’s reproductive health. Now, I come from a generation building on those successes.

The successes earned in an earlier time. My generation takes these for granted sometimes. What was the early environment in the fight for women’s rights, women’s reproductive health rights and, in particular, the right to abortion in Canada?

Campbell: It is tempting to consider the issue of women’s reproductive rights and access to abortion as resolved issues. In fact, they are not. These touch the heart of a number of issues, e.g., the right of women to have control over their own bodies and to have bodily autonomy.

In Canada, the law was changed in the late 60s to make abortion legal. The issue was accepted by a therapeutic abortion committee in a hospital. In those parts of the country, the woman decided on it.

In Quebec, where most hospitals were Catholic hospitals, no abortion committees were formed. When Dr. Henry Morgentaler created a freestanding abortion clinic in Montréal, there was no other opportunity for a woman to comply with the law.

Eventually, the Supreme Court of Canada struck down the law. They supported Dr. Morgentaler. They said, “You cannot have a provision in the law, which says, ‘Doing X is criminal. Unless, you do Y if Y is not, in fact, available.’”

So, since 1988, the government considered some legislation and a provision in the law about abortion. The law was drafted as extremely liberal. In essence, abortion would be legal if it impeded mental, physical, or psychological health.

It did not pass. Now, we have no law. There are rearguard actions. It shows the difference between Canada and the United States. Religion is a bigger factor in American politics. America is more patriarchal than Canada.

There was interesting research by Environics Research. It has shown the growing divide between our societies. Canada is a much less patriarchal society. There are people in Canada who wish to limit access to abortion. They will work through funding or changing the law.

Stephen Harper had people in his caucus who wanted to restrict abortion. He refused to let the issue come forward. He viewed the court decision as settled law. However, people in today’s generation consider abortion settled law.

There are regional differences. There is access to health services and legal abortions in Canada. However, the issue persists. Your generation cannot pull the covers over your head and say, “We do not have to think about it anymore.” It comes back.

Jacobsen: I would not want to pull the covers over my head either [Laughing]. When it comes to this general fight, it is in an international context. If you take statements from organizations like Human Rights Watch, they firmly state, “Equitable access to safe abortion services is first and foremost a human right.”

If taking the international context, and if taking Canada with the unsettled nature of abortion in the culture, what steps should younger generations take when they apply the international human rights perspective within the Canadian legal tradition?

Campbell: Now, given the decision by the Supreme Court of Canada made in the R v Morgentaler decision, any interference with a woman’s right to abortion is seen to interfere with the life, health, and the rights to life and health of the woman.

There is a strong Charter foundation for the legislation. The debate takes place when people want to elevate the right to life of the foetus over the right of the woman to decide on carrying the foetus or not.

Thus, you or I might make the comment about the right to abortion and reproductive rights; the right to reproductive control as a human right. Others use the same terminology against us.

They say, “What about the right to life of the foetus?” For modern law, it has been the right of the women – of the living person – to decide on carrying the foetus or not. The Supreme Court of Canada recognized the possibility of some rights, which depends on the time of gestation.

In other words, whether the foetus can survive outside of the womb, these are issues to be considered rather than dismissed. You cannot simply say, “It is a human right.” Indeed, it is a human rights issue.

Many important research organizations analyzing social, political, and economic development of countries, including Pew Research, state one of the most important indicators of the social, political, and economic status of the country is the status of its women.

A key part is access to contraception, and safe and accessible abortions. The interesting thing is the rate of abortion declined dramatically over the last couple years.

If people have the right to abortion, it does not necessarily mean more abortions. Often, it will be accompanied by better contraceptive services. So, women will not want to run around terminating pregnancies.

It is a difficult decision for any woman. It depends on the circumstance of the conception. There is a bigger picture. There are ways in which people can control their fertility.

When they have access to those reliable mechanisms, then abortion becomes less necessary, it becomes a last resort in terms of conception and birth.

Jacobsen: Also, I noted this in conversation with major representatives of bigger abortion organizations, e.g. the Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada. I wrote on this as well.

You mentioned religion. Also, you mentioned a human rights perspective, which we both take on board. I do note the big split. One is the international secular human rights perspective.

Another is the traditional religious transcendental moral law perspective. It seems like the major divide. So, with respect to the latter position, the transcendental moral law perspective. Those would be “pro-life.” The former would be “pro-choice.”

How much does religion, within Canada, play into the political and social perspective against the rights of a woman & for the “rights of the foetus”?

Campbell: Canada, in terms of our politics, is a less religious country. Canadians practice religion but are less religious than Americans. Religion is a much less salient factor in Canadian politics and public policymaking.

Different religions have different views. Some religions accept the primacy of the mother – of the woman – to decide whether she continues with the pregnancy. It’s her wishes and needs as always the most important.

Because in some religions, for instance, the Catholic Church takes that view, even in the case of preserving the life of the woman, abortion is unjustified. For many people, it is a repellant view.

Even among religions, there are different views on the lines, which means the rights of the pregnant woman versus the rights of the foetus. Those who follow religious views have a more non-existent or more restricted view of pregnancy termination.

They tend to be the most politically active because they fight against the status quo. There are those who have a religious faith, where the status quo in terms of abortion laws are consistent with their religious beliefs.

Jacobsen: Also, aside from women’s reproductive health rights, you are the only woman prime minister of Canada – the first and only. You stand out. Also, you are the first woman president in high school of the student body.

You have notable areas, relative to life stage, of standing out as a woman leader. It continued into the present in various domains. One, how does being recognized, nationally and internationally, feel to you? Two, what additional social responsibilities come along with those recognitions?

Campbell: It is a positive thing if people take it as an inspiration to want to replicate the experience, or if people see it as something that inspires them to seek their goals and ambitions. I had an interesting experience in the 2017 International Women’s Day with the Daughters of the Vote.

The program brought young women to Ottawa from every constituency in Canada. They were excited to meet me. When they sat in their seats in Parliament, which belonged to members of Parliament, they see the excitement and the commitment of them.

They would return in their own right. It is important to acknowledge. I am happy to be a vehicle for it. It says, “This is doable.” It is not easy. Because I am the only one. However, it is not unthinkable now.

In the Summer of 1993, according to Gallup, I had the highest approval rating in their polling of any prime minister in 30 years. So, while I was governing, I was popular. However, there is a lesson too.

I have been interested over the past couple of decades in exploring the growing body of research in social and cognitive psychology helping understand why these barriers are difficult to overcome.

Why living in a society where leadership is gendered masculine creates a sense among men and women of an implicit attitude, visceral sense, leadership is male. That is, when a woman comes along in a leadership position, she creates a sense of discomfort, where something is not right.

There is only one way to change it. It is for women in larger numbers to occupy positions of power, influence, and prominence and reprogram people’s expectations. This can create new implicit attitudes, where people feel comfortable with women leaders.

It is a significant challenge. In my own speaking, and work at the leadership college, I acquaint people with the understandings of the difficulties there. Even women are inhospitable, they may exempt themselves from the stereotypes.

However, their visceral response will be negative to somebody who does not sound or look like somebody who has done that job before, even if that somebody looks like them. it is an ongoing challenge.

If my experience can help people understand the reality, and if I can be somebody who shows that first of all there is survival even if you do not succeed in the long run. It inspiring young people, young women, to go for leadership positions, or for young men to support them.

That pleases me. It is the role. I have chosen to play it.

Jacobsen: In a recent conversation with the Rt. Hon. Paul Martin, he took on a different angle. One for post-prime minister duties, which was a focus on Indigenous youth: wellbeing, health, and education outcomes.

The Martin family Initiative examines the entire spectrum of the young person’s life in order to improve outcomes. This may help close the educational and health gap. Indigenous Canadians live 10-15 years shorter. They are a larger portion of the dropouts of the country too.

I noticed something about professional life for you. It is a focus on women. I want to mix those conversations today with a focus on Indigenous women leaders.

What organizations, women, or movements work to advance the Indigenous sub-demographic of women in terms of leadership?

Campbell: I have been in Edmonton. I met with groups of Indigenous women. The program at the college has strong Indigenous content. I have two main themes in professional work. These have been crucial to post-political life for me.

One is the advancement of women. The other is promotion of democracy and democratic values. In my youth, I was a Soviet specialist. I viewed with great alarm the resurgent authoritarianism, supported by Vladimir Putin’s Russia.

I see this gaining influence in countries, where we thought there were successful democratic transitions. I am worried about the state of democracy south of the border. I am passionate about it. Because it is one a precondition to support the advancement of previously non-included people.

When it comes to Indigenous people and Indigenous women, there are different subsets of women who are more disadvantaged than others; for example, more disadvantaged than I might be as a white woman in Canadian society.

Being female was a problem, however, I had other ways. I am in the accepted majority, which is an established group in society. I was out of Canada for about 18 years. I did not address those issues as much with regards to Canada’s Indigenous women.

Certainly, with women around the world in the Horn of Africa and Africa generally, women in many other parts of the world are significantly excluded and disempowered in their own countries.

In Canada, since I have been back, this is part of my broader concern about the empowerment of women. The Daughters of the Vote program took 338 young women to Parliament, which had 70 Indigenous young women as part of the group.

It was a powerful part of the experience. Both for the Indigenous and non-Indigenous women. It was coming to understand the reality of our experiences. Our different experiences of Canadian life and citizenship. It is important.

Of course, the recommendations through the Truth and Reconciliation Commission are something to provide a new agenda for Canadian governments and institutions at all levels. Am I specifically engaged in work to do with Indigenous women?

Not particularly, I include this in the general work for women. Interestingly enough, I was the first woman to be Minister of Justice. Anne McLellan was the second woman.

The current Minister of Justice, Jody Wilson-Raybould, is the third woman and the first First Nations person to be Minister of Justice. I know her. I have strongly encouraged her, to use her perspective to ask new and different questions as the justice minister.

It is an important part of expanding our ability to respond to people with realities, which are not on the agenda when making changes to law and policy.

Jacobsen: In the earlier part of the interview, you noted the empowerment of women was a key indicator of the health of a nation. So, the development and wealth of a nation by implication.

In other words, it becomes not only a moral right thing to do but also an economically correct choice. Also, you mentioned the patriarchal structure of other countries, such as the United States of America, but less so than Canada by comparison.

However, if you look at countries where someone like Vladimir Putin was recently re-elected in a “landslide victory,” apparently [Laughing], you have a way in which the Russian Orthodox Church is being held at the service of the government.

Thus, religion in this case, too, having a macho culture, a patriarchal culture, at the top and, therefore, throughout much of the country.

If we take the research on the empowerment of women, and if we look at a country where there is a patriarchal religion plus patriarchal leadership, it will lead to a lower quality of life with the reduction in the empowerment of women.

I mention Russia because of your speciality in the Soviet Union. What does this spell for Russia and other countries not taking advantage of the other half of the population?

Campbell: For all its size, Russia has a GDP the size of Belgium. It is an underperforming country. There are extraordinary women in Russia. When I spent three months in the Soviet Union in 1972, I was struck by women who carried the burden of the society.

They were excluded from the power structures. Only one woman was ever in the Politburo. In the Soviet Union, it was Yekaterina Furtseva who served briefly during Khrushchev’s time. In terms capacities and intelligence, there are brilliant women there. However, it is not a happy place to be a woman.

Russia is a politically, socially, and economically undeveloped society, even with its natural riches. It is a serious underperformer in its ability to create wealth. Putin creates problems through hybrid warfare. Clever people who commit cyberwarfare.

The sad thing: Putin is seeking power and dominance through hybrid warfare because he doesn’t have the power and dominance as a leading economy, except Russia is a source of fossil fuels and natural gas to external markets.

It is a hugely underdeveloped economy. Even though, it has talented people. It proves the point. This country is underperforming. Women do not have the same equality and opportunities, power, and ability to have influence on the policy of the country.

Because it is not a democracy. It is another huge problem. It is another factor holding Russia back.

Jacobsen: What trends throughout the world give hope? That is, a general trend towards greater equality for women and the traditionally excluded from mainstream society. An increase in general wellbeing over decades and, arguably, centuries, i.e., a trend of positive progress.

Campbell: The level of poverty has dropped dramatically. The level of education around the world and literacy has grown. There are places in the world where those are challenges. Firstly, what concerns me, the resurgence of authoritarianism, which is worrisome.

Typically, it has a kleptocratic underpinning as with Donald Trump and Vladimir Putin. Same with some of the other leaders. It worries me. Secondly, it is climate change. Our inability to tackle the challenge of global warming and climate change.

It is about ideas undermining people’s belief and faith in the capacity of democratic governments and institutions. If we do not meet that challenge, if we cannot respond to it and create global will and understanding, we will have a serious problem.

Thirdly, the ability of social media and the internet to become vehicles for massive campaigns of misinformation. It leads people to make judgments on erroneous understandings of the state of the world.

When Donald Trump tweets while campaigning about the terrible crime rate in the United States, crime was at a 40 year low. When you tell lies about when certain people behave in your country or certain movements/happenings, it is difficult.

It is hard for people to make considered decisions and choices in a democratic process, which will create governments able to move ahead with the capacity and stability necessary to protect human rights.

We created a monster. The response of the governments in the United States, Britain, and elsewhere to the role Facebook played in the American election in 2016 and the Brexit election in Great Britain.

The response of their parliaments. The concern they have for the ways in which Facebook and others collaborated with organizations of political campaigns. We may get some legislation and policy responses to this, which may remove those disruptive and negative influences.

However, it worries me. There are many ways in which we have created more effective ways of growing food. We have raised the level of overall wellbeing around the world. We have poverty, but the level of poverty is much lower before. Nonetheless, we have some major challenges.

At the end of the day, governance and the ability of governments to respond to these crises is absolutely fundamental. I see, certainly, south of the border a president trying to undermine people’s confidence in the democratic institutions. The same ones necessary to meet those challenges.

Am I happy about progress? Yes. Am I worried about the future? Yes. When we have those failures, they are accompanied by erosions in the rights of women. Therefore, women have nothing to gain by those failures.

We need to be very, committed to protecting our gains. Not only on our own behalf, but for the rest of the population.

Jacobsen: When it comes to the empowerment of women, it helps to have personal examples. Difficulties can arise, e.g., emotional difficulties, professional obstacles put in place deliberately or inadvertently such as through historical inertia.

When a young woman wants to achieve more in life, e.g., business, politics, trades, or theoretical physics, how can young women break barriers while also keeping in mind the likely difficulties?

Campbell: First, a young woman has more in support of these aspirations, which is good. Because, over the last few decades, we have the Charter of Rights and Freedoms, Human Rights Act at the national and provincial level, and various legislation dealing with jobs and opportunities.

We have protections against being discriminated against based on one’s sex. Hence, it is hard for any organization to justify excluding women from having an opportunity to do things. In some cases, you mentioned the trades.

There are some places where trades organizations are seeking and encouraging women to training and join those fields. Because they provide good jobs and women are good at them. Socially, politically, and legally, the landscape is different than 30-40 years ago.

There is more institutional basic support for women’s aspirations. The bigger challenge is less the formal-institutional one and more the social one. It is less problematic compared to when I was a young woman because more women are doing non-prototypical things.

More women in public life, in medicine, in law, and in business. However, there are barriers. With more women, there is a greater sense of this as normal, which becomes part of the social values. The fact something changed over the last 20 years does not change the minds of people who are mature and have their values.

There may be an age difference in how people perceive whether women belong or do not belong in certain circumstances. We are beginning to understand the nature of cognitive bias, of implicit attitudes, of old social attitudes where women are seen as inferior or weaker.

It will vary in the field. Some places will be more difficult than others. The old attitudes die hard. There are generational reasons. Some areas have women better able to compete. However, this does not mean are no barriers.

Jacobsen: When I reflect on common examples, even a personal example, I worked in construction at 15/16. There were not many women there. If a woman wanted to start a construction company in concrete, they would probably have difficulty with the sub-cultural aspect of the particular industry.

The different values people bring forward. They should probably bear in mind the type of business. In medicine, women do not have as many difficulties there. Because there are more role models for the current generation too, as well as more institutional supports.

For those women less academically inclined but more business oriented, if they want to found or co-found a construction company, this can be a difficulty in terms of the interpersonal examples.

How can a woman not demand but command respect in how she conducts herself? While knowing, given the sub-culture based on personal experience, it may be more difficult.

Campbell: You might be surprised. There are a few women in construction. In fact, the Alberta Home Builders’ Association is a woman. She created a company wih her husband. However, he died. Then she became the sole owner.

It happens for women. In particular, when the husband dies, they take the company over. There are many companies started by women. People tend to find they like working with women: reliable and good to work with them.

It varies. There is variation. However, it is important to make visible the ones already doing it. It is not as rare as one might think. The more one can provide profile and visibility to women doing these things. Then the more one can bring down the sense that they do not belong.

I can think of two women in Vancouver. One woman who ran a major engineering company. Another had a major tugboat company. Both inherited the leadership of the companies from the husbands who died.

But they both became titans of business in British Columbia. Once they were doing it, they owned and operated the business, successfully. It is similar to the case with women in technology. You are, of course, aware of the man at Google who wrote women were not suited for technology sectors.

What was offensive about it, many of the modern pioneers in technology have been women. Yet, they have been dropped from the history. It is interesting now. Somebody will tweet a biography of a woman, who was one of the founders of these information technologies.

You ask, “How come I never heard of her?” Because nobody talks about her. Often, I have said, “If you want a more inclusive and diverse future, then you should have a more inclusive and diverse history. We should have a history containing people who we traditionally leave out.”

The representation is men or white men. Often, there is a misapprehension about women demonstrating their capacity, breaking terrible barriers. Sometimes, these outstanding women had allies. One woman’s neighbour encouraged her, even though the father did not want her.

These are the challenges, where the women are not there. First of all, we need to give profile to the women already there. Women have been doing these things for a long time.

Secondly, the interesting thing about business. At the end of the day, performance does count. One of the things that happens to women. Indeed, it happens to anybody seen as an outsider entering into a field.

If people are jealous and fear the newcomer will take their business, it will create sabotage. They will try to drive people out. Many people face this in society. It can be some people who feel entitled to run the shops and be in the fields.

It is having the ultimate protection against the social pushing back. One of the things women encounter. In many societies, in jobs primarily dominated by women, they are both low status and low pay.

Yes, there are more women doctors, but there is lots of sexism. Many male doctors feel that if women come to dominate the field then the field will be less prestigious. It has been traditionally, socially the case.

Many years ago, when I did a review of a book of the Eastern economies during the Soviet time, it was something interesting identified by them. In the Soviet Union, doctors had different ranks. The family doctor, the 5-year postsecondary training, were overwhelmingly women.

It was low pay and low status. People say, “Look at all the women doctors.” But all the specialists were men. There were more women. Often, when people do not let newcomers in, they are afraid the presence of them will lower the economic reward and status of the field.

Same with immigrants and people of color. However, women always faced this. The feminization of an activity will result in the diminution of pay and status.

Jacobsen: You mentioned a supportive husband for some women. Many young women and many young men want to become married and have kids. These are high level life goals for many people.

In terms of professional advancement of a woman through having emotional support with a supportive partner, husband, or civil partner, what qualities should a young woman, if heterosexual, bear in mind about the potential partner?

Campbell: If a partner is not able to rejoice in your success, and to appreciate and value your abilities, it is not a hopeful sign for a relationship. One allowing success for you. In many families, in some cases, some husbands put their own careers on hold.

Because they feel their wife is a superstar, Carly Fiorina. He was going to make this possible for her. There are many other examples of this. Of men willing to step back and looking after the kids, and other things, to permit the wife to succeed, not all men are super-driven for a career.

They want to do other things than play the dominant economic role in the family. It depends. In any relationship, in a sense, if a man feels diminished by the success and capacity of his wife or girlfriend, this becomes a danger sign.

As I say, I have been lucky. I have been comfortable and happy. I succeeded. My second husband was terrified of the implications of being prime minister. He did not want to be in the public eye. However, he did not think I should not do what I was doing.

He thought I was good at it; the right person to do it. The implication of public life concerned him. There are great men out there. If it is an issue, the notion of the issue going away is an illusion. Women should be cautious.

It is not a man being successful too. A woman may say, “You are successful. Why should you be jealous of me? You are leaping tall buildings in a single bound.” It may not have to do with the success of the man.

It may have to do with the rationale or the status of the man. It may have more to do with the sense of what a woman should be, in terms of validating them. The amount of air to breathe at high levels [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Campbell: This is something women and men have to deal with in life. The female partners relish their success and do not feel threatened by it. It is not always easy either way. However, it seems more common for women to find men having mixed feelings about it.

Jacobsen: Do the sense of mixed feelings come from family and social pressure?

Campbell: I do not know the answer to this question. My husband came from a traditional background. His father doted on his mother. His mother died young. However, his mother was not traditional. Yet, my husband is supportive of everything I do, Scott.

There is no problem at all. It is hard to tell. At the end of the day, research suggests parents do not have as much influence on their children, as much as some parenting books tell us. No matter what parents do, children will become one way rather than another. Love and support help.

My family was not interested in me going into politics or having a public life. The ways in which people form their attitudes is complex. People have a sense of justice at a young age. You do not know the source of it. However, they can see things.

The idea is creating a society where the values are articulated. Our values of respecting the individuality of every person, the capacity of every person, the dignity of every person, and hope this is reflected in relations between the sexes and in the relationships created by them.

I do not know if there is a simple recipe. Sometimes, men who are supportive of women develop with strong female role models, who feel women can do things. It is a complex question. However, people who develop with domestic violence and the casual use of misogynistic language, where women are portrayed as inferior.

It takes strength of character to escape it, to not be affected by it.

Jacobsen: What seems like the greatest emotional struggle in professional life? What can a younger woman take from it?

Campbell: The greatest emotional struggle, I do not see life as a struggle for me as such. It is making judgments of when to dive into the fray and when not to. Sometimes, it can be difficult. My instinct was to dive into it.

Probably, it was not always a good idea to do it. I do not see emotional struggle as capturing things. One the biggest emotional challenges was the defeat of 1993. My deep disappoint; my need to try and find my feet after it.

I was a non-prototypical leader. People wanted to blame me. Men are more likely to be given a second chance. Knowing this meant the end of the political career, it was difficult. I did not have an emotional breakdown. However, I was sad.

I could not do something, which I wanted to do meaningful things. I had to figure out how to do something in life; things valuable and meaningful to me. My sister’s view is the greatest legacy, for me, is the survival.

People say, “You have had the most consequential post-political life of any prime minister.” I am not sure if this is true. People say this to me. It is interesting to me. The way in which they express it.

When I was younger, I did not know how much of a post-prime minister life I had to fill up [Laughing]. It pleases me. I succeeded in overcoming the disappointed and finding ways to live. The bottom line: it is to go back and ask, “What matters to me? What is meaningful work for me?”

When I wrote my memoir, it was interesting how consistent I was in my life. Two things compelled me. One was the state of the world, e.g., politics, democracy, justice, and so on. Although, when I was young, I was not sure how I would integrate this in my life.

I wanted to be the first woman Secretary-General of the UN. It was the experience of seeing the destruction of the Second World War. Because it was recent in my youth. Both of my parents were in uniforms. It was a value. I kept this value.

It continues to be important to me. Another is the advancement of women. I got this value from my mother. The notion women could do anything but this was not a universally accepted proposition. There were barriers. They needed to be broken down.

I found ways of asserting those values. There is always a challenge in dealing with the sense of disappointment and sadness, when one door closes. It was, perhaps, the greatest emotional challenge of life for me.

It was find the equanimity in it. I did not expect to experience a nervous breakdown. However, the idea of feeling bad about something. You grieve a lot. It is not a sign of weakness. It is permission to recognize the loss. Then you can figure out the lessons of it.

One of the things in public life. You see it. [Laughing] Other people see it. They take school tragedies and others. Then they draw value from it. A sibling dies from a disease. Then they become committed to fundraising for a cure.

Our human tendency to build something positive on the foundations of tragedy and loss. It is a positive thing. Many people have to face it. I have to face it. It was an emotional struggle. The need to understand the experience and deal with the sadness.

At the same time, I had to earn a living [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Campbell: You have to continue. Certainly, you can see people who were hoping for failure. If you thought I did not belong there, then it will be discouraging to you, when I become strong in the case of loss.

This will dispel the view of me, as someone weak. [Laughing]. To the extent of not giving those people the satisfaction, it is a good incentive. If I was not strong, I would not deal with setbacks and disappointments.

However, I am resilient. I am going to lick my wounds. I am going to acknowledge the disappointment and ask the question, “What matters to me?” I can work to pursue those goals. A life without being in elected politics.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mrs. Campbell.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-09-02

Witch Persecution and Jungle Justice in Abia State

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: African Freethinker

Journal Founding: November 1, 2018

Frequency: Once (1) per year (Circa January 1, 2023)

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 1

Issue Numbering: 1

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: September 2, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Dr. Leo Igwe

Word Count: 462

Image Credit: None.

Keywords: Abia state, Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Amaegbuato, Amarachi Okechi, Leo Igwe, Messers Chijioke Onyele, Nkpa Bende, Umueghu, witchcraft accusation.

*Please see the footnotes bibliography after the article.*

Witch Persecution and Jungle Justice in Abia State

The Advocacy for Alleged Witches (AfAW) deplores the torture and dehumanizing treatment of Mrs. Amarachi Okechi from Umueghu in Amaegbuato autonomous community Nkpa Bende Local Government, Abia state. A video that is circulating on social media shows some youths flogging this woman while some people looked on. Family sources told AfAW that some persons accused Mrs. Okechi of witchcraft after a young girl took ill and the illness “defied” treatment. They claimed that Mrs. Okechi magically caused the ailment. Youths in the community accused her after consulting a local diviner who certified that Mrs. Okechi was behind the sickness. Mr. Okechukwu Chidirim led the youths who consulted the diviner.

A relative told AfAW that on Tuesday, August 23, some youths abducted Mrs. Okechi, tied her hands and legs, and flogged her at a public square. A part of the video shows where some blood was gushing from her head. They forced her to sleep outside until the following day. On Wednesday, August 24, the youths flogged Mrs. Okechi again; they hit her with sticks and stones. She sustained injuries, and had bruises on her head, hands and back. According to local sources, some family members tried to intervene, but the youths attacked and beat them up. The youths asked Mrs. Okechi to heal the girl or she would suffer a worse fate. They compelled the family of Mrs. Okechi to pay them the sum of 50,000 Naira. They claimed it was the money that they paid to consult a diviner. Messers Chijioke Onyele and Okechukwu Chidirim collected the money on behalf of the youths from the community.

AfAW is in touch with family members on how to ensure the safety of the accused. The life of Mrs. Okechi is in danger. She could be killed if the sick child eventually dies. There is an ongoing consultation on how to take her to a safe location. Mrs Okechi also needs some medical examination.

However, AfAW has been informed some youths are threatening to burn down Mrs Okechi’s house if anyone takes her out of the community. AfAW urges the traditional ruler and president general of the community to call the youths in the community to order, and get to end this show of shame. Community leaders should work to ensure that Mrs. Okechi suffers no further harm or abuse. The torture and maltreatment of Mrs. Okechi are clear cases of jungle justice and trial by ordeal. They are criminal acts. AfAW calls on the divisional police officer in Uzuakoli and the Abia state police command to ensure that the perpetrators are brought to justice. State ministries for justice, women affairs and social welfare should synergize and help bring to an end witchcraft accusations and the barbaric treatment of alleged witches in the state.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-09-01

The Greenhorn Chronicles 23: Gail Greenough on International Show Jumping and Equestrianism

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: E

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: “The Greenhorn Chronicles”

Individual Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Gail Greenough

Word Count: 3,318

Image Credit: Gail Greenough.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

*Interview conducted September 1, 2022.*

Abstract

Gail Greenough is the CEO of Greenough Equestrian. She teaches and trains out of Creekside Equestrian near Calgary, Alberta. She was the youngest and first rider to finish with zero faults to win the gold medal at the 1986 World Show Jumping Championships, and the only woman and North American to do so. She joined the Canadian equestrian team in 1983. She won gold for the National Cup, the National Horse Show, the International Grand Prix, the National Grand Prix, and the DuMaurier Grand Prix. She earned a Bachelor of Arts Classics, Arts History, and Sociology, from the University of Alberta. Greenough has been honoured with the Sports Federation of Canada Achievement Award (1984), Edmonton Sports Report Association Amateur Athlete of the Year (1986), TSN Female Athlete of the Year (1986), Alberta Achievement Award (1987), and the Edmonton YWCA Tribute to Women Award (1988), and entrance into the Order of Canada (1990), the Alberta Sports Hall of Fame (1994), the Canadian Olympic Hall of Fame (1998) and the Jump Canada Hall of Fame (2006). Greenough discusses: the first inklings of becoming an equestrian; an actual career; Canadian society at the time; the experience of seeing very, very high-level jumping; gold medals; the greatest supports; rapport with horses; human behaviour and patterns; the more difficult aspects of a horses personalities; the gold medals; the Bachelor of Arts in Classics, Arts History, and Sociology from U of A; the more impactful or significant personalities in the Canadian show jumping world since its inception; his trademark trait or personality facet; the system of building U25 riders into riders for Canada; the quality of the horse and the matching of the rider; barriers; regrets; balance; support structures; international women riders; the men; punching above our level; familial feel; most dominant international show jumping team; the style of riding for show jumping; principles; equipment and safety; aspects of safety have changed; the leading edge, the cutting edge, of the training, the equipment, the safety and care; identify a young rider with a lot of talent; training others; and feel proud three international trainees.

Keywords: Alberta, Canada, equestrianism, Gail Greenough, horse sense, Ian Millar, principles, show jumping, The Greenhorn Chronicles, U25.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 23: Gail Greenough on International Show Jumping and Equestrianism

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We are here with Gail Greenough. She is a distinguished international show jumper in Canadian equestrian history. So, to start, what were the first inklings of becoming an equestrian or interaction with horses in particular?

Gail Greenough: As a little girl, I did not grow up in a horse related family. I had two older brothers that played hockey. My father played hockey. I came from a very sports-minded family. I was one of those girls who loved horses and would do anything to be around horses. So for as long as I remember, I was always in love with horses.

Jacobsen: Was there a particular moment when you realized this could become an actual career and was formally a sport that you could compete in?

Greenough: Not really one particular moment, it evolved from Pony Club on up. I always wanted to make it my life. That was my dream. When I started jumping, all I wanted to do was jump for the Canadian equestrian team. I was very driven at a young age for sure.

Jacobsen: Do you think there’s anything about Canadian society at the time, latter 20^th-century, that was a fertile time to be an equestrian to get into show jumping, etc.?

Greenough: It paralleled the growth of Spruce Meadows. Spruce Meadows was at its inception when I was 14-years-old, which is a time in an adolescent’s life where you choose directions. I was 14-year-olds at the first Spruce Meadows competition (13 or 14). I grew alongside with Spruce Meadows. As they grew, I grew. As a junior, I was able to compete in the international ing in Spruce Meadows and walk under the watchtower. They got international teams from Europe and England. I was able to watch the best riders in the world ride as a teenager.

That, probably, catapulted me. So, the parallel with Spruce Meadows growth would parallels my growth. I, probably, couldn’t have achieved what I achieved without Spruce Meadows.

Jacobsen: Recollecting back, when you had the experience riding and jumping with horses before seeing the world’s best, and then actually seeing them in practice, what was the experience of seeing very, very high-level jumping compared to what you had seen before?

Greenough: I was competing at lower levels. I was at the competitions at the same time, competing at a different level. I was able to absorb everything from the international riders and knew that that was what I wanted to do.

Jacobsen: For a lot of people who may not realize, you had a lot of success – gold medals and such – very early in life, in your 20s.

Greenough: Yes.

Jacobsen: It came rapidly, very tightly together.

Greenough: Yes.

Jacobsen: When did you realize, outside of the medals, that you were quite very good.

Greenough: I think as a junior jumper rider. I was fairly brave and fairly accurate. As we say in our sport, I had a pretty good eye for the distance to the jump. When I finished high school, I moved to California. I achieved a lot there. I learned how to go fast agains the clock with Butch Thomas. I went to college. Then I moved back to Edmonton to go to university and work with Mark Laskin.

My last year of university was my first team on the Canadian team. My horses were back East because that’s where everything was based. I was going to U of A. I really don’t know how I did that. I was on the planes a lot. It was the days before the internet. I would do Madison Square Gardens and the Royal Winter Fair with the team and try and get home and write final exams. That was complicated.

Jacobsen: What do you consider some of the greatest supports in getting that achieved?

Greenough: My family, my parents, my mother, my father, they were behind me 100%, as long as I went to school [Laughing]. For sure, my family and my brothers, my two older brothers, supported me and my dreams. I had really good coaches. I had John Weir, Mac Cone, Butch Thomas, Mark Laskin. First and foremost, I was matched with really good horses that brought me along in the sport. You are only really as good as what you sit on and only as good as the match between horse and rider. Not that I had easy horses, I didn’t. But definitely, I created really good rapport with the horses that I had.

Jacobsen: How do you develop that rapport with horses? How long does that generally take?

Greenough: It is a lot of time. It is a lot of time in the saddle and out of the saddle, and in the barn, knowing the personalities, establishing a relationship, a give-and-take. Every horse is different, just like human beings. Every relationship was different. You have to work together. It takes a lot of time. Some horses [Laughing], you click with quicker than others. Some relationships develop quicker than others. It is like human-to-human relationships or a human to any animal. You have to learn to listen to each other both ways.

Jacobsen: What do you think are the main ways horses tune into human behaviour and patterns?

Greenough: I think if somebody is nervous around a horse; they pick up on that right away. So, as we say in our sport, you have horse sense. You just learn to read each other in the stall, mucking out the stall, doing waters, feeding, hand walking, a lot of work on the ground – groundwork. You establish your rapport.

Jacobsen: What do you consider some of the more difficult aspects of horses’ personalities to make that connection, where that horse is not easily making that connection with a horse or a rider?

Greenough: The horse would have a reason for it. It could be something from its past. If you take on a rescue dog, they have layers. Things you don’t know that have happened to them in the past. So, you have to develop a trust and a language between each other. You just do that through handling and working away, taking away, so you have a trust.

Jacobsen: Of the gold medals that you have won in your history, what ones would you consider the most significant, personally?

Greenough: I’d have to say the World Championships. There have been other GPs that I have won that stick out in my mind. I won the Stuttgart Masters in Germany. A few double clears in Nation Cups, I am pretty proud of. I won the Halifax $100,000 2 years in a row on a horse called Simon Says. I have been in 4^th, 5^th, and 6^th, in GPs with horses that jumped so well where those are more meaningful than the wins. You have accomplished something, but you didn’t get the red rosette for it.

But you really accomplished something in that round. That sticks out for me more than anything. Winning the Canadian championships on a horse called Lesandra in the early 2000s. I am pretty proud of that. I have been out of the top end of the sport for a while, built this young mare. She came along pretty quickly and won the Thunderbird Grand Prix two years in a row as a 7 or 8 year old, which is pretty unheard of. She was pretty phenomenal.

Jacobsen: Have you ever made use of the Bachelor of Arts in Classics, Arts History, and Sociology from U of A?

Greenough: [Laughing] Yeah, probably.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Greenough: I have an appreciation for it. In some social settings, it has come in handy for sure. You tend to be in those kind of settings among some pretty elite people in this sport. I’d say, “Yes, it has come in handy,” but school in general gives you a methodology of thought. My writing skills are better for it. My communication skills are better for it. I’d say that I have used my degrees well.

Jacobsen: Who would you consider some of the more impactful or significant personalities in the Canadian show jumping world since its inception?

Greenough: Ian Millar, our sport wouldn’t be where it is without Ian Millar. He has been the singlehandedly most impactful rider and developer of our sport in Canada, by far, by far.

Jacobsen: What would you consider his trademark trait or personality facet that makes him stand out?

Greenough: He never gives up until he solves the problem. He is a problem solver. He is so willing to pass on that knowledge to anybody who wants to listen. He is a great communicator. He is a great passer on of knowledge. He is, by far, a great rider and also as a coach. I ran a coaching business for a few years. This is well after I won the world championships. I wanted to learn that side of things to become a better coach. I worked alongside Ian at Millar Brooke (Farm) for a few years to learn the coaching side of things. He is amazing.

Jacobsen: How do you see the system of building U25 riders into riders for Canada compared to other nations in the Americas or the other continental regions as well?

Greenough: I think we’re catching up. I think it has not been as impactful as other countries. It is there. The system is in place. It is available to those who follow it. There is a ladder. There is a process. I think that is the most impactful thing, is that it is in place and available. Our numbers are smaller than other countries as far as riders. We don’t have the same number of riders. But we’ve always been a small, but might country equestrian-wise. We’ve won a lot of gold medals for a country that doesn’t have the same numbers of riders as, say, Germany or Ireland or even the U.S. For our small numbers, we do quite well. For shortages of good horses, we have many great riders in this country. It is just finding the good horses to match them. That’s the hard part.

Jacobsen: Outside of the quality of the horse and the matching of the rider, what would you consider barriers to entry or aspects where the industry could improve to make those chances even better, to leverage the small population of talent even further?

Greenough: It’s a dedication of quality of young riders earlier and the process of getting them going. Financially, it is inhibiting for sure. So, I think that’s always an issue. Money is always an issue. It is to find the good riders and seeing if you can get them going somehow, being creative in your ways of thinking. We are getting better at the breeding programs, a lot better. That is starting to show itself, slowly. It is starting to show itself in Canada.

Jacobsen: Are there any areas where there are barriers when you were going through the process of becoming an international rider that are, more or less, not necessarily entirely equitable, but more evened out?

Greenough: I was one of the few females riding on the international stage. It was definitely a European man’s sport at the international level. So, I was a bit breaking the glass ceiling for females to follow. “You can do it. We can do it. We can try.” I think that catapulted more females into the sport at the higher level.

Jacobsen: Do you have any regrets in any achievements that you did not attain in your history?

Greenough: I never competed in the Olympic Games. Either my horses were hurt or I was hurt, that’s a regret. I regret not having a family [Laughing], because I was focused on the next competition and the next year. I missed out on that phase of my life. Now, you see the girls doing both. It is hard. They do it. That impresses me. The top female athletes having families. It is very impressive.

Jacobsen: How do you think they achieve that balance between international show jumping fame and the intensity of the work there, as well as the balance with the family life? How do you think they’re achieving that?

Greenough: Major team behind them.

Jacobsen: Do you think other riders who would want that same balance, who did not have support structures – people, resources, etc. – in place, that they could attain them?

Greenough: You make a decision. If your decision is to ride at the top level, then you find a way to make it work. It is difficult for any female like a top female business executive would have the same issues as a top athlete. You look at Serena Williams. She is stepping down to spend more time with her family. It’s pretty hard to do both perfect. Females are strong, but, boy oh boy, it is hard to do both perfect. I think if you have achieved in the international sport as a female and then decide to have children. I think it is easier to let the international side go. If you have achieve many other goals, it is easier to let that part of your life go and attain that better balance.

Jacobsen: Of the international women riders you know, do you think most would like that balance?

Greenough: Yes, I think it’s natural.

Jacobsen: What about the men?

Greenough: Oh, who knows? [Laughing]

Jacobsen: [Laughing]

Greenough: A man’s life is easy. But, typically, what happens in this sport, you marry within the sport and have children within the sport, and the kids grow up in the sport. We all become one big family. I’m auntie Gail to many, many kids. Because we spend so much time together on the road. We all get to know each other pretty well. It is a nice group.

Jacobsen: Based on a prior response, do you think that’s even more exaggerated for Canadian show jumpers? So, per capita, we are punching above our level, but it is tighter because it is smaller.

Greenough: I think we punch above our numbers, yes.

Jacobsen: Do you think there is this faux familial feel more than other countries?

Greenough: No, I think it is the same. You are fighting for your country and fighting together. We have a large contingent of Irish people in Canada. They’re a pretty tight group.

Jacobsen: Which country, in the 2010s, even in the 2020s now, has been the, certainly, most dominant international show jumping team?

Greenough: I think Ireland has come along gangbusters in the last 20 years. At the worlds, it was Sweden. It was in Denmark. The Swedes, oh my God, on fire! They are on fire.

Jacobsen: When it comes to the earliest riders, I think it was in Mexico, three guys, e.g., Thomas Gayford, etc. Do you think that the style of riding for show jumping, in terms of training thought and approach to the sport has changed to the present, or are the principles much the same?

Greenough: It has evolved, tremendously. They were incredible. That team was incredible, the Mexico team. The style of riding has changed dramatically. The courses have changed. The horses have changed. It’s not even apples and oranges. It is apples and peanuts. It is totally changed. It is much more technical in every way. Even since my win at the world championships, the sport has evolved. If you don’t evolve… I coach and source horses. If you don’t evolve with the sport, you should pick something else to do; it has changed that much. Like any sport, it is continually evolving. You could ask the same thing about hockey in 1964 and hockey now. It is different. The athletes are different. The equipment is different, much faster game. It is a much faster game in the equestrian world too.

Jacobsen: What principles do you think would be the most significantly changed since that time in ’64?

Greenough: It is much more developed as a sport. So, principles, those guys had the same principles as us. They were determined and driven, as we are now. So, the principles have remained the same. The technicalities have changed.

Jacobsen: In terms of equipment and safety, those have changed too?

Greenough: Oh, night and day.

Jacobsen: What aspects of safety have changed?

Greenough: Safety cups for back rails and oxers. If the comes down on the back rail, they don’t fall down, the rail falls down. That’s a safety aspect. Different bridals have been developed, different mouth pieces, different boots, saddles, saddle pads. The care of the horses is extraordinary. We have acupuncturists, and chiropractors, and massage therapists. We have different care for their legs and different machines that we use, and ultrasound. Diagnostics has changed. We can tell right away if something is up with the ultrasounds, the X-rays, radiographs. The attention to detail is extraordinary. The horses get better care than we do: the feed, the hay, all of it.

Jacobsen: What would you consider some of the leading edge, the cutting edge, of the training, the equipment, the safety and care, of horses and riders?

Greenough: One thing that sticks out to me after what I just said is the training, getting the horses more rideable – broke, using a lot of rail work. I use a lot of rail work in my training instead of jumping a bunch of jumps. I do a lot of flat work over rails, establishing the connection with the horse that way, making them come forward and back, having them come off the leg, but not over jumps – just training over a flat, a rail, or different gymnastics.

Jacobsen: How do you identify a young rider with a lot of talent, a lot of horse sense?

Greenough: Somebody who is pretty relaxed in the saddle. Somebody who is coachable. Somebody who has a good comfort level around horses and confidence, dedication, determination, thinking in the long term and not the short term.

Jacobsen: Of those, what can you train? What can you not? What can you reinforce? What can you not?

Greenough: Certainly, it is easier to work with riders with more natural ability. It is a hard sport. If somebody doesn’t have the innate talent, it is difficult, like any sport, like hockey players. If they can’t skate well [Laughing], it is going to be tough going. Individuals, human beings are driven to, hopefully, to the sports that they excel in. I don’t coach at the lower levels. I coach pretty much elite athletes. They are fine if I am not there. If I cannot make it to a competition, they are more than capable. It is more of a collaboration. I work with them in specific training at home to get horse and rider ready for competition to do what I do now. I don’t really deal with the grassroots at all.

Jacobsen: Of those riders you have trained, which ones do you feel proud of, say?

Greenough: When I did train juniors, riders evolving, I’d have to say Amy and Jonathan Millar, Ben Asselin. Those would be the three. I’ve been under the saddle for quite a few years. I’m pretty proud of my coaching in general. I’m more excited than the riders are when they are successful. I take it pretty seriously. I’m pretty proud. I’ve coached the Olympic Games, young riders with the kids. I’m pretty proud of all that. Everything things of the World Championships. I’ve evolved with the sport since then. I also am on the High Performance Committee for the equestrian team. I’ve been doing that for many, many years. I’m pretty proud of what I have been able to contribute to that within equestrian Canada.

Jacobsen: Gail, thank you very much for the opportunity and your time.

Greenough: Yes, thanks! Thanks for the interview.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 23: Gail Greenough on International Show Jumping and Equestrianism. September 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/greenough

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, September 1). The Greenhorn Chronicles 23: Gail Greenough on International Show Jumping and Equestrianism. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/greenough.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 23: Gail Greenough on International Show Jumping and Equestrianism. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 23: Gail Greenough on International Show Jumping and Equestrianism.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/greenough.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 23: Gail Greenough on International Show Jumping and Equestrianism.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (September 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/greenough.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 23: Gail Greenough on International Show Jumping and Equestrianism’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/greenough>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 23: Gail Greenough on International Show Jumping and Equestrianism’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/greenough>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 23: Gail Greenough on International Show Jumping and Equestrianism.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo. 11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/greenough.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 23: Gail Greenough on International Show Jumping and Equestrianism [Internet]. 2022 Sep; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/greenough

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-09-01

The Greenhorn Chronicles 22: Deborah Stacey on the Origins of Horse Lover’s Math (1)

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: E

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: “The Greenhorn Chronicles”

Individual Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Deborah Stacey

Word Count: 3,194

Image Credit: Deborah Stacey.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

*Interview conducted July 7, 2022.*

Abstract

Deborah Stacey is the Founder & CEO of Horse Lover’s Math. Deborah Stacey is the founder and CEO of Horse Lover’s Math (HLM). HLM is an active website for kids ages 8 and up devoted to horses, math and science offering print and downloadable STEM resources and website posts and content that are free and open to everyone. Growing up horse crazy in the suburbs didn’t allow Deborah much opportunity to spend time with horses. She had to find other ways to feed her passion, which she did through reading horse books, drawing horses and watching every program and movie she could find. While in elementary school, she and a friend organized their own horse school, taking turns teaching each other about horses. They even had a chalkboard and gave lectures and tests. The fascination with horses remained strong through high school. After graduating, an opportunity arose to take English riding lessons near her family home. One day at the barn her riding instructor asked if she wanted to work as a groom at a small, private hunter and jumper stable outside of Montreal. She jumped at the chance. Around this time Humber College in Toronto started up a two-year horsemanship program. Deborah graduated with an Honours Degree in Horsemanship in the mid-seventies and went on to work with hunters and jumpers, at a hunter jumper breeding farm, and boarding stables with a focus on dressage. Years later, she had a family of her own and a daughter who loved horses. In school, her daughter struggled with math. One evening, in an effort to help her daughter understand a math word problem, Deborah changed the context from shopping for a bag of flour at the grocery store to buying bags of grain at a feed store. The math operations remained the same; price, decimals and multiplication, but the context changed, now it was about the real world of horses. Her daughter became curious. How much does a bag of oats cost? How does that price compare with beet pulp or sweet feed? She was engaged and she started asking questions. It was an exciting moment for Deborah to see what happens when a child who is struggling finds their passion; they become motivated, curious and open to learning. Using the math worksheets her daughter brought home from school as reference, Deborah started creating math questions based in the real world of horses. She began seeing math everywhere in her work with horses, and Horse Lover’s Math was born. You can find reviews on HLM Level 1 and Level 2, information on Teachers Pay Teachers on HLM Level 1 and Level 2 (Links). Leslie Christian, of Outschool, has been a collaborator with HLM. Stacey discusses: background; an application of mathematics in different disciplines or areas of horsemanship; more advanced mathematics; Humber College in Toronto; no other precedent for this type of program; partnering with any other groups; and the equestrian educational series.

Keywords: British Columbia, Canada, Deborah Stacey, equestrianism, Horse Lover’s Math, Humber College, Leslie Christian, mathematics, The Greenhorn Chronicles, Township of Langley.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 22: Deborah Stacey on the Origins of Horse Lover’s Math (1)

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We are here with Deborah Stacey from Horse Lover’s Math. She is from Langley, British Columbia. Our meeting was interesting because I am doing interviews with equestrians. I started writing articles on equestrianism. One of them was on the horse capital in British Columbia called Langley, Township of Langley. I put a list of businesses, not complete, obviously, that I found. You contacted me and said, “You’re missing one.” [Laughing]

Deborah Stacey: [Laughing]

Jacobsen: “Mine!” I said, “Oh my gosh, I’m so sorry.” So, I added it. “Why don’t I interview you as well?” So, here we are today, in an aspect of equestrianism that I haven’t seen anywhere else, which is the application of the equine to math education with children, so, I have to take a step back and ask, “How did you get interested or started in horses?” What is your background there?

Stacey: This is something I noticed that I had in common with many of the equestrians that you’ve already interviewed. I was a horse crazy girl growing up. How does one explain that? I don’t know. But that was a passion of mine. I grew up in the suburbs. I didn’t have a chance to take riding lessons or be around horses any more than, maybe, once a year to go on a trail ride or something. I graduated from high school. I was living in Ottawa at the time.

I decided to take riding lessons. There was a stable not far from where my parents’ home. My home at the time, I started taking riding lessons. Probably just a few months after I started taking riding lessons, my riding instructor approached me, and asked if I was interested in working at a hobby farm, 10-horse barn, just outside of Saint-Augustin (Côte-Nord, Quebec), North of Montreal. I said, “Sure.” So, I packed my stuff and took the train, and arrived to Mrs. Fleet, who owned the farm. I had an apartment attached to the barn, attached to the doorway and led away from the tack room, and from the tack room into the barn.

She sent me into the tack room to clean tack. The next day, we were going to the show. I didn’t want to tell her that I didn’t know how to clean tack. I went in. There was a saddle soap can. I read the instructions on the can and cleaned the tack. So, that’s how I got going to actually living my dream. This was back in the ‘70s. At the time, I learned about a horsemanship course, a 2-year horsemanship program at Humber College.

I thought, “Okay, this would be a good step for me to take to try and catch up with people who have been with horses all their lives and already had this huge base of experience and knowledge.” So, I was accepted and went. In between those 2 years, I worked at a hunter-jumper breeding farm just outside of Ottawa. After I graduated, I worked at a country club North of Toronto. Then, at a certain point, when I was still looking after other people’s horses, and sharing an apartment with three or four other girls, I couldn’t see a future for myself.

My life took a different direction. Then in the 90s, by then, I, and my family, had moved out here. “Out here” being the West Coast, the Lower Mainland, I had my daughter, who was also a horse crazy girl. Not far from where we lived at the time, there was a farm, a barn, called Sunnyside Barn on 24^th East of the King George Highway. She started taking lessons there. One thing led to another, I ended up working there, and eased my way back into the horse world. That’s where the idea for Horse Lover’s Math came to being.

I was helping my daughter. She was in elementary school at the time. I was helping her with her math homework. It was one of those boring word problems about apples or whatever. I thought to myself, “If I just change the context of this question to be about the real world of horses, keep the math operations the same, maybe, she’d want to know the answer.” It was like the light bulb went off. I began to see math everywhere in the world of horses. I started working on creating content. This was before InDesign, before individuals had the capability of creating their own website, before social media. Most of these things weren’t happening then.

I was trying to interest a print publisher in Horse Lover’s Math. I had accepted some articles and essays, and a short story of mine had received an honorable mention in the Writer’s Digest magazine’s annual writers competition. I had that interest and experience, but I couldn’t interest a print publisher. So, I had to put it on the back burner. I never let it go. I knew it was a good idea. Then in 2011, I was at another turning point. I thought, “Okay, if I am ever going to make Horse Lover’s Math happen, now is the time.” As the universe would have it, a friend of mine, his daughter was a children’s book publisher. I had an in.

She agreed to meet with me. I brought with me the work that I’d already prepared. She was very supportive. She said that she’d never seen anything like it. But, her company didn’t publish this type of book. She encouraged me. She said if I had any questions, do not hesitate to contact her. When I left there, I said to myself, “Okay, you’re going to go for it.” I made WordPress courses to make my own website. I lean InDesign to lay out my own books. That’s how I got started.

Jacobsen: The general observation is an application of mathematics in different disciplines or areas of horsemanship.

Stacey: My elevator pitch is: I’ve researched the math curriculum guidelines for grades 4, 5, and 6. I create math content drawn from the real world of horses to meet as many curriculum goals as possible. So, for horse crazy kids, the motivation to learn is built in. I don’t organize the workbooks or the content around the math. It is around the horse information. So, in the workbooks for example, there could be questions about fractions in horse science, e.g., understanding horse height, or in sports, like the fractions around a thoroughbred racetrack.

So, what is motivating kids is their passion for horses, I’ve had comments. I did, as I’ve been working on this (this is before Covid), volunteer at my local elementary school to help out in the math classes, because my kids are adults. I wanted to be familiar with what kids are like today. I developed a Horse Lover’s Match math club, where I would have a group of kids. I went to different classes in grades 4, 5, and 6. I gave them my feel. I described to them what I would be doing. Anyone who would participate, we would meet in the all-purpose room at lunch on Tuesday, say. I developed these activities. Not sitting down, this is one thing I learned in this.

One section of the level 2 workbook is about mustang brands. The BLM in the United States, when they capture horses; they give them a freeze brand. They use the international angle system of brand. It is like a code. If you know how to read the code, you can know how old the horse is, where it was captured, and what their net tag number is. So, I developed these materials to teach kids how to do that and gave them actual examples and real photos of brands on horses necks, asking them, “How old is this horse?” etc. I really love that. I printed out pages. I brought it in from the math club. Kids didn’t really engage with it. They wanted to be standing up and moving, and doing things. That was a good lesson for me. I developed, at least, 10 activities for kids to do.

Then Covid hit, that particular part of Horse Lover’s Math has been put on hold. I am hoping next year to be able to approach home school groups, local elementary schools, and equestrian barns, where they offer riding lessons to kids with a half-day workshop for Horse Lover’s Math.

Jacobsen: How are you hoping to develop this into more advanced mathematics if at all?

Stacey: I’m not. I satisfied with grades 4, 5, and 6. Along with the workbooks, there is an active website. The posts are free and open to everyone. Another goal, I have, as I have shared with you; I was a horse crazy girl growing up. I didn’t really have the opportunity to become a good rider. So, in my mind, I had, “In order to have a career with horses. You’ve got to be a good rider.” You don’t, actually. You can have an academic career with horses, as we have touched on already. There are all these universities and colleges now doing research, who have professors and undergraduates. So, this is another goal of mine. For this to open the door for kids, so many kids by this crucial age group, they start to become closed to learning. The joy, the excitement, the fun of learning, which, I believe, we are all born with becomes shut down.

So many kids, “I don’t like math.” I’ve had so many kids tell me, “I didn’t even know I was doing math because the focus is on horses.” I’m hoping. My market, my target group, is very much a niche group. That age group and horse crazy kids, it’s not all kids. It’s not in the high school. I’m hoping that those kids by getting excited by learning will open the doors to them, who knows where it will lead. One of the sections on the website is courses and careers. So, kids can see that they don’t need to be a rider. They can be an equine science researcher. So, that’s a little side there.

Jacobsen: When you went to Humber College in Toronto, how did the horsemanship program compare then from now?

Stacey: That’s a good question. There is much more variety now, like I said. I wasn’t aware of these equine science programs and all of this research being done. It was the only one that I knew of, at Humber College. I’m sure there were ones in the States. I would assume, at that time. Even now, there are even high school programs incorporating equestrian subjects and learning. I think you mentioned one, because there is one based in Brookswood, perhaps.

Jacobsen: Maybe?

Stacey: When I took it, which was back in the ‘70s, there were riding lessons. There was in-classroom work. There was learning about anatomy and lamenesses. That sort of thing in the classroom. It was just a 2-year course. So, I think I was much more basic back then, than what is the variety of availability now. There is this area, which I find exciting, now. An area, which can be referred to as, natural horsemanship feel, like Pat Parelli, Jonathan Field, Josh Nichol, and Warwick Schiller. Their approach to training horses and how horses think, is so much different than when I was involved. It was one of the reasons I got out when I did. It was because I didn’t really like what I was seeing. There are places, universities and colleges, that have programs focused on natural horsemanship.

So, it has really expanded over the years.

Jacobsen: When you were first developing this…

Stacey: Yes.

Jacobsen: …you came across no other precedent for this type of program. Correct?

Stacey: No, and still now, if you Google “Horse Math” or “horses and math,” you should do that and see what you get. It still pretty well stands alone. As I have worked on it over the years, initially, I really tried to keep it restricted to math. I was having increasing trouble doing that. With the rising importance of STEM subjects, I, now, describe it as also being science. So, math and science, kids learn about math and science through their love of horses.

Jacobsen: Have you tried partnering with any other groups who, after you had done it, thought of doing something along similar lines?

Stacey: I haven’t tried partnering. One of the challenges things for me is it’s just me doing everything. Yes, it could be a reason to find a partner to help. Someone suggested, “Why don’t you try to find a publisher?” I could feel in myself. I didn’t want to lose control. You get a publisher involved. I didn’t want to give over that control. I do have a wonderful person who is responsible for the maintenance and backend of my website. I’ve had, initially, an illustrator because, along with photographs and some of my own graphics and drawings, each of the workbooks; I’ve hired an illustrator. I have partnered in that way. Beyond that, I haven’t found another group.

One thing I do is through my Google Alerts, periodically; I find different equine organizations. You mentioned equine therapy when we first started talking. I’ve come across articles of people who have an organization that focuses on at-risk youth or providing kids with the opportunity to be with horses in such a way that it encourages their confidence and competence. I will reach out to them and offer free downloads of Horse Lover’s Math content if they would find it useful for their organization. One early organization, which I contacted, we’ve stayed in touch. [Laughing] It has a great name: Detroit Horse Power. This is a young man named David Silver who started this organization, who has been a pony clubber and is a teacher. He started this organization to help inner city youth kids, primarily black kids.

Jacobsen: That’s fantastic.

Stacey: I don’t know if that is what you were looking for, but that is one thing I am actively doing. I just contacted a woman in Ontario. So, she and I are communicating. She’s excited about using some of the materials. She is going to let me know what she needs.

Jacobsen: At the periphery of the journalism, those tidbits of information become helpful for a journalist, as I do not have a team behind me, do not have institutional backing. This is not a paid position. These are things, I find, either intellectually interesting or consider important to present to a public intellectual audience. It doesn’t have to necessarily be restricted to people paying for an article, as it is a free outlet. Yet, the grade reading level can prevent a full comprehension of the written material. That, in a very direct way, restricts the people who comprehend properly the intended content. So, the way to buttress the reader and help them is to have it as a conversational presentation as well.

Stacey: Also, storytelling, some of these anecdotes, they’re stories. That is always an entertaining way of conveying information and draws people in.

Jacobsen: 100%, and also, this starts with, myself at, zero background knowledge.

Stacey: I read that! How did you get this idea that this was an area? I mean, now, you’re out cleaning stalls.

Jacobsen: So, today, we were at the FEI barns. I was cleaning stalls, doing landscaping and gardening, came back to home base and did more landscaping and gardening. That was the day. Basically, it’s whatever they need me to do. Yesterday, it was getting the sprinkler system set on 30 -minute timers [Ed. Staff as the timers for some of the sprinkler systems.] and setting three on at a time while doing second pickings for the stalls while doing stall fronts. Wherever you are needed, you go there. One of the biggest lessons from this industry. It’s a barn. There’s always work. I was in restaurants. I was thinking, “Money is not an issue. What can I do?”

I decided something that would be interesting. For one, it is the horse capital of British Columbia. For two, I know people that talk about horses all the time, want to try working with or around them. So, why not? I decided to just take that jump. My work experience, writing experience, my education, [Laughing] none of it has any applicability to this industry. It has turned out fabulously because it has melded so well into the independent journalistic work by me, especially because it is in Langley. There is a lot of opportunity to write about, learn about, extend a hand to people in saying, “Hi, my name is Scott. I do journalism. Would you like to talk about horses?”

Most of the people, most of the time, are very open to these things. It’s very lovely. Myself, I like this particular series because, as far as I know, this might be one of the first educational series of the journal, where it is very explicit: I am utterly ignorant and am going to have conversations with all facets and people, as much as I can, starting nationally, with equestrians. The conversations will be presented as follows: You’ll learn about the people, and then the industry. You’ll learn as I am learning in a lot of ways. So, the sophistication of my questions will develop along the way. Even in show jumping, names like Eric Lamaze, Erynn Ballard, Tiffany Foster, and Ian Millar.

These names meant nothing to me before. I had no idea who these people were. Now, I know. Now, I make the proper call for a horse, to move around a horse and not be nervous around them. Things everyone does. What are the differences between alfalfa hay, timothy hay, and local hay? Things of this nature. Or, simply, barns and keeping things clean for clientele. There is this whole aesthetic to equestrian culture. So, the short of the long has been what most people have been telling the whole time, basically. [Laughing]

Stacey: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: “It’s a lifestyle.” That explains most things because there are no transferable things, I had into this industry prior. You’re either a foot in the door phenomena and slowly getting in, or in 10-fingers and 10-toes. It’s all week. You don’t stop. That’s, more or less, without deep knowledge or presentation of the story; my mini narrative into the industry. I love it, despite the all-weather hard labour. I do love it. I am excited to see how the bits and pieces of knowledge and practical application begin to knit together with more full ranch work.

And, get this, I only (have) had a horse step on my foot, once!

Stacey: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: He was a boy, a colt in other words, no steel toe. I was lucky, in other words.

Stacey: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: My toe was completely mangled. I’ve heard of way worse. It took about two weeks to heal. You get used to that kind of stuff.

Stacey: Yes, it’s going to happen, in one way or another.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 22: Deborah Stacey on the Origins of Horse Lover’s Math (1). September 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-1

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, September 1). The Greenhorn Chronicles 22: Deborah Stacey on the Origins of Horse Lover’s Math (1). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 22: Deborah Stacey on the Origins of Horse Lover’s Math (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 22: Deborah Stacey on the Origins of Horse Lover’s Math (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 22: Deborah Stacey on the Origins of Horse Lover’s Math (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (September 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 22: Deborah Stacey on the Origins of Horse Lover’s Math (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-1>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 22: Deborah Stacey on the Origins of Horse Lover’s Math (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-1>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 22: Deborah Stacey on the Origins of Horse Lover’s Math (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo. 11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-1.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 22: Deborah Stacey on the Origins of Horse Lover’s Math (1) [Internet]. 2022 Sep; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stacey-1

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-09-01

Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Norwegian Socio-Culture and Talent: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (3)

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 11

Issue Numbering: 1

Section: A

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 26

Formal Sub-Theme: None

Individual Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2023

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewer(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Interviewee(s): Olav Hoel Dørum

Word Count: 4,109

Image Credit: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the interview.*

Abstract

Olav Hoel Dørum was the Ombudsman for Mensa Norway. He is a Member of Mensa International. He discusses: professional medicine; the warmth of a childhood; absurd jokes and eccentric stories; a lack of formal religion; misuse or positive social use; common misuses of intelligence tests; common positive uses of intelligence tests; too much value on the I.Q. score; medical screening process; the causal or correlation pathway; some high-I.Q. types; Nietzsche; Jung; archival work; the last year-and-a-half; the era of singular, solitary genius; Norway’s relative high comfort and SES; the social mobility in Norway; societies where capitalism is leaned on too much or socialism is leaned on too much; a “deeper meaning”; the Gapminder Foundation; other favourite maxims of Kant; idea of a rejection of no saturation points as a definite referent; the benefits of “work ethic, social conscience, structure and reaction to crisis” in East-Asian cultures; and a harmonious balanced viewpoint.

Keywords: Christians, Donquixote Doflamingo, East-Asian cultures, Gapminder Foundation, geniuses, I.Q. tests, Jordan Peterson, Jung, Kant, LGBTQ+, Nietzsche, non-religious, Norway, Olav Hoel Dørum, Russia, Ukraine, Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale, Western oriented cultures.

Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Norwegian Socio-Culture and Talent: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (3)

*High range testing (HRT) should be taken with honest skepticism grounded in the limited empirical development of the field at present, even in spite of honest and sincere efforts. If a higher general intelligence score, then the greater the variability in, and margin of error in, the general intelligence scores because of the greater rarity in the population.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Did the history of professional medicine influence any of the professional decisions for you?

Olav Hoel Dørum: No. I did what I had a talent for and found enjoyable. My parents thought it was important I got educated but not in any particular direction.

Jacobsen: Were there any other influences than the warmth of a childhood family of encouragement and support?

Dørum: Not until I joined Mensa when I was 23. I met people who really inspired and motivated me, and I was given trust and responsibility. There were, and still are, many beautiful people with very different lives that each gave me something. An idea, a feeling, a perspective, a goal – something that gives you the little tickling gut feeling you would not want to be without.

Jacobsen: What are some of your more absurd jokes and eccentric stories?

Dørum: Our national gathering in 2019 had a flamingo and unicorn-theme. I bought a costume on eBay to wear during Saturday’s dinner. It was the pink feather coat to the character Donquixote Doflamingo from the manga One Piece. Look it up, it is quite the view. The ad said that some shedding may occur. The hotel staff can assure you that was an understatement. It was a trail of feathers from the elevator and to my room, in the nachspiel suit, in the bar and a significant amount in the banquet hall. Worth every cent and was one of the best banquets I have ever been to. The cleaning personnel certainly disagrees.

Jacobsen: Is Norwegian society marked by a lack of formal religion? I am aware of the huge humanist community there. They’ve had a great legacy contribution to the international secular humanist community.

Dørum: Religion does not play a noticeable role in either decision making or political views. Religion still has a unifying role in ceremonies such as weddings, funerals and public mourning after terror attacks but many religions are represented in these events – not just Christians. Very low percentage of people attend church regularly, roughly 12 percent attend mass once a month and roughly 50 percent are baptised. I would say that most if not all kinds of societal participation is non-religious. Some parts of the country are noticeably less tolerant when it comes to LGBTQ+ issues and those parts tend to be more religious in general, but I think it has more to do with conservative views and generally low level of tolerance and not something that is a manifestation of religion.

Jacobsen: For the most part, given the conventional view on intelligence tests, are they more prone to misuse or positive social use?

Dørum: Positive social use. Most societies do not practice systematic discrimination in such a way that intelligence tests would be a useful tool. It surely has been misused by having ambiguous items, instructions that are specifically worded so that they are difficult to interpret correctly or questions with references commonly unfamiliar to the working class. The problem is that using intelligence tests with the intent to discriminate is that it is a low precision weapon. If the group you want to discriminate against has low reading comprehension due to lack of schooling and you want to use that against them, it will also hurt people you do not want to discriminate against but who also have low reading comprehension. It only works if you indiscriminately discriminate and extremely few are willing to do just that. Many countries also do not have a tradition for testing so the opportunity never arose in the first place.

Jacobsen: What are common misuses of intelligence tests?

Dørum: I have not seen any common misuse of intelligence tests itself, but there is an abundance of tests that piggyback on the credibility of professional tests and the term I.Q. Most people know that what you find online should not be taken seriously, but there are too many not very well developed tests that are sold to companies with the purpose of team building or recruitment. The validation data is usually not publicly available, contrary to professional psychological tests, so we only have the companies’ words that they work. We also have salesmen who are selling adaptations of professional tests to companies. The tests itself might be very useful in the right context, which is rarely recruitment.

Jacobsen: What are common positive uses of intelligence tests?

Dørum: To locate various forms, and the severity, of head injuries, in neuropsychiatric diagnostics (ADHD, Autism etc) and to identify or rule out intellectual reasons for learning difficulties or failure to adjust. Typically something an average person would never experience. The army uses cognitive tests to screen out those who fall below one standard deviation and who is likely to succeed in various fields. Some companies use intelligence tests during recruitment if that is crucial for the job – pilots is one example, but it may vary from country to country. You hear “general ability test”, “logical reasoning”, “ability test” and so on. They all mean more or less the same thing, general intelligence. The reason it’s branded as something else than intelligence tests is that the academic requirements for calling a test an intelligence test is very costly and lengthy. It’s cheaper to call it a “general ability test”. It’s also less controversial.

Jacobsen: There is a tendency to place too much value on the I.Q. score, as in a formulation of part of an identity around it. Plenty of others have noted this. I take this area as another aspect of the research into the communities. What seems like the factual, state of the matter, reason for this pattern, particularly among men who get media attention with some exceptions?

Dørum: First a quick explanation why exact scores do not matter. Psychological tests place you in a landscape. Scores are meaningful when you ask more fundamental questions like if a person is at risk of falling behind at school, need help to get employment or if a person has above average capacity for learning and understanding complex material. It does not matter if you score 120 or 133 on an I.Q. test, you’re a smart guy. What matters is if you score 96 or 117. Most tests are not very accurate beyond two standard deviations from the mean. The number of people you need to perform statistical analysis to build a reliable test is usually much higher than what is available.

I do not necessarily think people who place much value in I.Q. scores are different from other people who are equally passionate about a niche, but since I.Q. is more controversial they come off as eccentric or boasting. Most people have something they are proud of, which is used as a springboard to confidence in other areas. It is a very human thing to do. Vanity is a very old thing.

Many of those interested in I.Q. has no interest in cognitive functions as a field of study so they don’t understand the premises of the tools. I.Q. tests reflect something essential about the person taking the test so I understand why some might get a bit too carried away with I.Q. scores.

Jacobsen: Was the medical screening process requiring a cognitive test art of the autism spectrum disorder finding? How do you see the world differently than others – to what extent in the spectrum, for example?

Dørum: Most neuropsychological assessments use cognitive tests which taps into different mental abilities. Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale was originally developed as a cognitive screening tool and has continued to be developed with this purpose in mind. They do not calculate an I.Q. score because it’s not relevant for the assessment, but rather looking at differences between scores and certain profiles. I am not limited by my conditions in any significant way, which is what is commonly referred to as “high functioning” although many don’t like that because it suggests function level can be represented on a two dimensional scale.

I do not conceptualize the same way and seem to be more aware of how my inner picture is built up. If you read a list of 20 words that all share a common theme to someone: “Snow, fireplace, santa, food, jolly, reindeer, gingerbread”, and then asked if a certain word was on the list, most people would say that the word “christmas” was on the list. It is much more common for non-autistic people to not differentiate between a conclusion or interpretation and individual impressions or facts. I know what I have seen or heard, but I do not confuse that with what people have told me or what I feel or assume. I have many opinions but I am rarely emotionally invested in them. I do not feel a clear group identity and I have no understanding of tribalism or destructive competition. It’s easier to see the many sides of events and situations if you don’t feel you have something to defend.

Jacobsen: What is the causal or correlation pathway? Is intelligence leading to social and economic success, or is it social and economic circumstances leading to intelligence ‘success’, some third variable, or some circularity of the first two, etc.?

Dørum: Intelligence can be predicted at a fairly early age and manifests itself through increased capacity for learning, making sense of complexity, figuring out what to do and other things related to thinking, so it is definitely a major genetic component. The environment can help you utilize your genetic potential but you cannot create something that was not there to begin with. Negative stress has a negative impact on decision making, so those who struggle financially or live in poverty have a disadvantage by not being able to plan and act as rationally as they otherwise would have done, but that is social circumstances and not the underlying general intelligence we measure on I.Q. tests.

Jacobsen: Do you think some high-I.Q. types try to up-play the ‘dysfunctional’ for some more media attention? Tabloid news must gobble it up.

Dørum: I think those who feel they have something to say are the ones likely to respond when the media is looking for someone to interview. The motivation for making the case has a lot to say too. When journalists wrote about Mensa Norway prior to 2010, their main focus was on eccentric and a bit different kinds of people that have come together and found a community. Overall, the article gave a positive image of Mensa and its members but the last ten years or so the focus has been that it is cool and fun to be a member. I think articles reflect a trend in society and not so much about the members themselves.

Jacobsen: What about Nietzsche stands out the most about comprehension of human nature?

Dørum: He is not afraid to embrace thoughts that most people find very uncomfortable or straight out frightening. He once wrote “The thought of suicide is a great consolation: by means of it one gets through many a dark night.” Suicide is an act that is universally condemned, and even considering committing suicide is seen as a sin or something many people reacts very strong to. It is perfectly understandable, as it has an unbelievably devastating effect on those you leave behind. Nietzsche understands that when you have found a way out, a solution to your suffering, even if the solution is terrible, you can endure if you know that you do not have to. There are suicide clinics in Europe that allows patients with uncurable diseases such as ALS (Amyotrofisk lateral sklerose) that significantly reduce quality of life while giving them a lot of pain, to die peacefully. Some research has shown that around 80 percent of those who get a “green light” from the clinic do not proceed to end their life. A way out gave them strength to continue. Nietzsche also said “He who has a why to live for can bear almost any how.” People should seek to find meaning wherever they find it, but at the same time know that it is you who decides what is worth fighting for and how much you can afford to give. I think some of the reason we have such a strong reaction to suicide is that your family depend on you, and that life in general was incredible harsh and ruthless. It was necessary for our survival to find a way to cope that did not involve dying.

Jacobsen: How has Jung been helpful in making summative statements on human nature?

Dørum: He was one of the first to identify personality traits such as introversion and extraversion, which was very useful in an academic setting. I liked his relationship with spirituality. Religion is one example of systematic spirituality where you have a God and rules for how to live and some stories and tales to justify the rules. Jung focused more on the human need to have a meaning beyond materialistic needs. This was something he observed in his patients and it is reasonable to assume he was well educated in other cultures and religions as well. It resonates well with how humans see themselves in the cosmos. Even among those without religious identity there are very few that fully accept that life is entirely without meaning or that there is absolutely nothing immaterial that has some role to play in the development of the cosmos and those who experience it. There is no good way of telling if religion is a part of modern life because we once found it useful to develop something that brought order and meaning into a highly unpredictable and violent world, or if it represents an inborn need to have something bigger than humanity. Rituals seem to be important for mammals with a high level of intelligence, such as elephants, dolphins and apes. They are less sophisticated but we clearly see they react to death. Spirituality could be important for all intelligent life forms as they mark the beginning and end of life. With a tradition for art and music we can easily transform rituals into a form with religious associations.

Jacobsen: What kind of archival work in the past?

Dørum: Just ordinary archiving at public offices and organizations. Nothing special in particular. I really cannot make this interesting for the readers.

Jacobsen: Also, since I messed up with the interview on part 2, what has happened in the last year-and-a-half? (Sorry, by the way, for being dumb.)

Dørum: I have gotten a new job within IT and hosted an exchange student from Japan. It has without doubt been one of the best years in some time. I got to experience some aspects of having a family. From the very basics such as dinner planning and fun and interesting family activities on the weekend, to vacations and holidays. The experience is different from everyone as all have different motivation for bringing in an exchange student. The other host parents did it for excitement and curiosity, I did for sentimental reasons. Many thinkers, including Socrates, have said “know thy self”. I got to explore new feelings and new perspectives, and to know a different culture and your own culture a lot better.

Jacobsen: Is the era of singular, solitary genius gone? Marilyn vos Savant made a comment one time about ‘teamwork and dollars’ as the driver now.

Dørum: I think the era of singular and solitary geniuses was never there to begin with. As long as we have been able to communicate, both geniuses and scientists have exchanged knowledge and people have cooperated whenever practical. We see it today in various intellectual organizations and platforms on social media. Intelligence tends to seek intelligence. Any singular and solitary genius was more likely a product of lack of infrastructure and opportunity, not deliberate choice.

Jacobsen: How does Norway’s relative high comfort and SES react in times of war threat, as in the case of Ukraine and Russia?

Dørum: Noticeable increase in cost of living, mainly food, fuel and electricity. I think it has been a shock for the Norwegian people that we are vulnerable in ways we cannot protect ourselves from. Trade assumes that someone wants to trade with you, which may very well not be the case if there is a shortage of food and energy. Ukraine and Russia produce about 10 and 17 percent of the world’s wheat, respectively, and Europe, especially Germany, are too dependent on Russian gas – mostly for heating. Norwegians are notoriously bad at securing their own finances and Norway is one of the European countries with most private debt. Debt is not bad if you invest it in property, but unsecured debt in forms of short loans make up a significant proportion of total debt. Some may be desperate or have reasonable cause, but I would be surprised if more than 10 percent use a spreadsheet to draft a budget. Life is good during continuity, but that is not what you should plan for. I follow the same rule for money as for riding a motorbike: “Dress for the slide, not for the ride”.

Jacobsen: Has your family benefitted from the social mobility in Norway?

Dørum: Most have benefitted from social mobility in some way, but comparing generations is complicated since Norway experienced an overall increase in wealth post World War 2 like other industrial countries. You can easily stay within your class and experience a tremendous increase of wealth as the society gets richer and more advanced. The answer is “Yes, but I do not know by how much”.

Jacobsen: What happens to societies where capitalism is leaned on too much or socialism is leaned on too much?

Dørum: All European countries have their own variation of welfare capitalism. Inefficient bureaucracy and too many regulations consume resources that could have been spent elsewhere, or not collected. Since it often regulates private contracts and production – it can impede progression. On the other side: Too many financial obstacles and it makes it difficult for people to move upwards and lack of regulation is not a good thing either. But the biggest challenge is immaterial, it exists as political and philosophical reference points. When all you got is capitalism then everything becomes a market, when all you got is the state then everything becomes chaos that must be tamed by bureaucracy. Both systems will eventually lead to stagnation as the people continue to adapt the system to new situations, except in the way that matters. Economic systems define fairness and justice and sets a starting point for further progress, where any form of decline is seen as an unnatural setback rather than a natural change or a necessary alternative. We have a saying in Norway that “much wants more”. No one wants to settle for the reasonable.

Jacobsen: You mentioned a “deeper meaning” being found in the case of religious values and way of living, or political dogma as with political ideologies found in nationalism. Are these forms of escapism, in one sense, tied to a feeling of a “deeper meaning”? We see this in self-professed ignorant, somewhat discovery oriented, forms of biblical favouritism – via loose, improvisatory psychological textual analysis and stage performances – in Canadian society following a relative decline in religiosity compared to previous decades in the modest fame of Dr. Jordan Peterson.

Dørum: A part of that is probably escapism in the way that whatever you struggle with in your life can be seen as secondary to something bigger than yourself. Religion is more powerful than other isms, because it guarantees a personal reward instead of an unpaid sacrifice. Humans are territorial and collective in nature. Most people have a sense of belonging or identity which provides a robust foundation. We see how vulnerable rootless individuals become when they feel rootless, and that is why extremists and totalitarian regimes seek to eradicate traces of foreign cultures and the past. If people do not have cultural roots to attach themselves to, they will seek something else. Maybe all is just an extension of our need to be in a pack.

Jacobsen: What are some of your favourite, impactful statistics found through Hans Rosling’s research and the Gapminder Foundation?

Dørum: Level of education and child births. That people live longer make up a large part of population increase. We see that the fertility rate is dropping all over industrial countries, and when the level of education and wealth improves – their fertility rates drop too. It is the same as low average life expectancy in the past. If you lived to be 18 or 25 or something, you had a very good chance to live until the age of 60, 70 or 80. The child mortality was very high, so they had to get many children to ensure that some of them grew up.

Jacobsen: Any other favourite maxims of Kant?

Dørum: I like Kant’s approach to ethics. If an action is deemed right or wrong is determined by a set of rules instead of the consequences. I am not an absolutist, but I am a bit bothered that ethics and morality are too influenced by social concerns, political convenience or personal benefit. It brings in a form of relativism where we have very few intellectual defence against various forms of violence and destructive methods. Right and wrong should reflect something more than a simple majority’s rule. I have given it a lot of thought. It is not an easy balance, but I want to reserve moral exceptions for exceptional situations – not something that applies in everyday life. I value integrity and take ownership in my values. I should be careful to morally object to an action I accept to benefit from, or at least not pretend not to know what I am doing. You are not obligated to broadcast your views to everyone, but you should at least know what you stand for and how you will defend your interests and accept others to do the same.

Jacobsen: The idea of a rejection of no saturation points as a definite referent. This goes against most of the world’s ethical-philosophical systems. In that, these posit absolutes or a singular point for morality. Why is the reasoning reversed, as in absolutism in general, over the globe?

Dørum: I do not know if it is true that the premise for moral reasoning has changed. I see types of conflicts caused by a gradually more diverse society that were much less prominent a few generations ago. The world has always been affected by nations’ political, cultural and economic struggle for dominance. The methods today may be more peaceful in terms of human lives, but they are not more sympathetic in nature. People have never seemed to care too much with consistency. The outlines have become more vocal through the Internet that with great certainty tells right from wrong, but they have hardly changed. I have read various articles about modern morality and ethics. It is adapted to the 21’th century, but I do not see any fresh ideas.

Jacobsen: Is there a manner in which to take the benefits of “work ethic, social conscience, structure and reaction to crisis” in East-Asian cultures and the change towards LGBTI-rights, and the like, of more Western oriented cultures?

Dørum: East-Asian cultures are generally more conservative than western countries. A high context culture (cooperation, group-oriented and public image) impedes social progress since each family member represents the family. It is more difficult to break out and live your life as you should live it, if it negatively impacts your family’s reputation and receives negative attention. More people have to normalize LGBTQ and advocate LGBTQ-rights, but it is difficult without a minimum of open tolerance. The best way to change public opinions is through the exposure of different thoughts and ideas.

Jacobsen: How is humanism a harmonious balanced viewpoint for you?

Dørum: I care about what kind of people a thought system, being philosophical, political or religious, produces. You have evil and goodness amongst all kinds, but humanism has yet to produce the systematic oppression caused by religion and other ideologies. Humanism is not atheism – which is a lack of faith, but revolves around the idea that humans have an inviolable right to live in freedom and to seek knowledge through science. It is difficult to oppress without infringing on people’s right to freedom. Humanism is not anchored in a set of rules or perspectives on life, so it remains flexible, there is only an essence. I think that is useful as society continues to change more rapidly than previous points in history.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11^th Edition): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Norwegian Socio-Culture and Talent: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (3)[Online]. September 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-3

American Psychological Association (APA 7^th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, September 1). Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Norwegian Socio-Culture and Talent: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (3). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-3.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Norwegian Socio-Culture and Talent: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Norwegian Socio-Culture and Talent: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Norwegian Socio-Culture and Talent: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (September 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Norwegian Socio-Culture and Talent: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-3>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Norwegian Socio-Culture and Talent: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-3>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9^thEdition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Norwegian Socio-Culture and Talent: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo. 11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-3.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Norwegian Socio-Culture and Talent: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (3) [Internet]. 2022 Sep; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-3

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In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-08-29

People with dementia are not witches, they need care and support

Author: Dr. Leo Igwe

Numbering: Issue 1.B, Idea: African Freethinking

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: African Freethinker

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/

Individual Publication Date: August 29, 2022

Issue Publication Date: TBD

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: TBD

Words: 590

Keywords: Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Ann Soberekon, Leo Igwe, mental health, Nigerians, Port Harcourt.

People with dementia are not witches, they need care and support[1]^,[2]

Dr. Leo Igwe is the Founder of the Humanist Association of Nigeria, the Founder & CEO of Advocacy for Alleged Witches, and the Convener of the Decade of Activism Against Witch Persecution in Africa: 2020-2030.

The Advocacy for Alleged Witches (AfAW) has urged Nigerians to stop branding persons with dementia witches because this mental health issue has nothing to do with the superstitious belief in witchcraft and magic. This statement has become necessary following a visit to Ann Soberekon’s family in Port Harcourt Rivers state. Ann Soberekon, a grandmother and retired lab scientist, was almost lynched by a mob in Port Harcourt following an accusation of witchcraft in December last year. According to family sources, Ms. Soberekon has dementia and is receiving some treatment at a local hospital. In December, she went to visit a relative but forgot her way back to her residence. For two days, she was missing. Family members did not know if she was alive or dead. They were making contact with relatives to ascertain her whereabouts when a family member got a call that a mob was about to lynch her in some area in Port Harcourt; they suspected that she was a witch. The family quickly sent someone who rescued and brought her home. Ms. Soberekon was lucky. She survived. Many people with mental health challenges who are accused of witchcraft seldom survive. They are usually beaten to death or lynched.

Family members said that Ms. Soberekon had bruises all over her body. When Ann was unable to trace her way back home, she started roaming the streets. Some youths accosted her, stripped her naked, and started beating her with sticks, banana leaves, and stems; they pelted her with stones. According to Ann, one pastor Jeremiah requested some salt. The pastor claimed that if he administered the salt to Ann, she would die immediately. The salt was not administered. But a family member claimed that they gave her some concoction.

In a video that went viral on social media, Ann Soberekon could be seen lying naked on the ground and responding to queries from the mob. Someone described her as ‘a strong witch’; they asked her to provide a list of her fellow witches. They claimed that she was returning from a witch meeting when she crash-landed while flying over an electric pole. Ann mentioned Prof Konya as one of her colleagues but that mob regarded the names she mentioned as some of the members of her witch coven. The crowd misconstrued Ann’s replies and regarded her statements as witch confessions, not utterances by a mentally unstable person. What a shame!

Following her rescue and return, the Konya family asked Ann Soberekon’s family to tender an apology for mentioning her name. When Ms. Soberekon’s family was not forthcoming with the apology, the Konya family used the police to arrest a relative of Ann Soberekon and detained her at the Central police station in Port Harcourt. The police later released her after a day. The family of Ann Soberekon later tendered a public apology to the Konyas. The apology was published in a local newspaper.

AfAW condemns the ill treatment and persecution of Ann Soberekon and other persons with mental health challenges in the country. There is no link between dementia and witchcraft fears and anxieties. Mental health problems have no connection with occult forces or demonic possession as popularly believed. Attribution of dementia to witchcraft is rooted in irrational fear, misinterpretation and ignorance of the cause of disease. People who suffer from mental health issues are not witches or wizards and should not be attacked or killed. People with dementia and other mental health problems are patients with health conditions. They should be treated with love, care, and respect.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, Humanist Association of Nigeria; Founder & CEO, Advocacy for Alleged Witches; Convener, Decade of Activism Against Witch Persecution in Africa: 2020-2030.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 29, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/2022/08/29/people-with-dementia-are-not-witches-they-need-care-and-support/.

Image Credit: Leo Igwe.

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Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Pesent. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, In-Sight Publishing, and African Freethinker with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-08-27

An Attack on Salman Rushdie is Indeed an Attack to Freedom of Thought and Expression

Author: Isakwisa Amanyisye Lucas Mwakalonge

Numbering: Issue 1.B, Idea: African Freethinking

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: African Freethinker

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/

Individual Publication Date: August 27, 2022

Issue Publication Date: TBD

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: TBD

Words: 332

Keywords: courts of law, East Africa, Isakwisa Amanyisye Lucas Mwakalonge, modern civilization, religious radicalism, Salman Rushdie, Tanzania.

An Attack on Salman Rushdie is Indeed an Attack to Freedom of Thought and Expression[1]^,[2]

Dar es Salaam, Tanzania – East Africa.

(WhatsApp +255 766 151395/E-mail: isamwaka01@gmail.com.)

It is a shock to the world and to all civilized people for a recent incident of an attack on Salman Rushdie. International media have reported that Rushdie was attacked right on a stage while waiting for an interview in one of the academic forums in the United States of America, unexpectedly a person succeeded to get in and stabbed Rushdie perhaps with intention to assassinate him. It is really very sad for humankind to continue experiencing these cruel activities, actually this heartless action must not only be blamed but also cursed in all over the world especially by those believing in humanity. It is a disgrace that at this modern world yet there are some people who are still embracing fanatical-archaic ideologies of believing in butchering fellow human beings only because those whom they hate do exercise their rights of freedom of expression and freedom of thought…perhaps the thoughts which that criminal and fellow uncivilized ones did not like Rushdie to enjoy them.

It is easy to link this attack with religious radicalism, or whatever may be the case, still no one has the right to take someone’s right to life probably due to the differences on what someone believes or thinks. It should be clear that despite the differences in faith; yet, all human beings deserve to enjoy the right to life. It is not good to kill fellow human beings. Any attempt to either silence or kill Rushdie is an attack against human rights. It is an attack against modern civilization. It is an attack against academic freedom. It is an attack against enjoyment of the rights of freedom of thought. It is an attack against the right of enjoying freedom of expression and opinion.

For that case a culprit must be prosecuted before courts of law just like other criminals for an attempt to murder an innocent person, and the attack must be condemned all over the world because an attack to Rushdie is an attack against civilization.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Lucas is Assistant Editor African Freethinker/in-sightpublishing.com (Tanzania), a Lawyer, an Advocate of the High Court of Tanzania, a Notary Public Officer and Commissioner for Oaths.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 27, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/2022/08/27/an-attack-on-salman-rushdie-is-indeed-an-attack-to-freedom-of-thought-and-expression/.

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Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, In-Sight Publishing, and African Freethinker with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-08-27

Police: Bring to Justice Killers of Mgboebuba Nwankwo in Enugu

Author: Dr. Leo Igwe

Numbering: Issue 1.B, Idea: African Freethinking

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: African Freethinker

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/

Individual Publication Date: August 27, 2022

Issue Publication Date: TBD

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: TBD

Words: 1,452

Keywords: Advocacy for Alleged Witches, Agatha Mgboebuba Nwankwo, Awgu, Enugu, Leo Igwe, Mark Chukwuino, Mgboebuba Nwankwo, Okeke Kele, Remijus Nwankwo, Silas Okolie.

Police: Bring to Justice Killers of Mgboebuba Nwankwo in Enugu[1]^,[2]

Dr. Leo Igwe is the Founder of the Humanist Association of Nigeria, the Founder & CEO of Advocacy for Alleged Witches, and the Convener of the Decade of Activism Against Witch Persecution in Africa: 2020-2030.

On January 26, an advocate sent a message to the Advocacy for Alleged Witches (AfAW) urging it to investigate a case of an alleged witch murder in Awgu in Enugu in Southern Nigeria. The message states: “Please investigate the allegation that a woman was killed as a suspected witch because her husband who lives abroad accused her of being the reason why he dares(sic) not return home anymore, suspected that she killed their son, and her daughter, suspected that she was the reason she could not attract a spouse. The proof of witchcraft was that she had a list of people who died in the village, a fact that is found in every home because people always kept a list of those they gave gifts to during funerals. The town is Awgu in Awgu Local Government of Enugu State, Nigeria. Your investigation may help to reeducate the villagers against witch-hunting”.

AfAW is not a police agency but liaises with the police and other institutions to bring justice to the accused. Through its network, AfAW found out that this middle-aged woman, Agatha Mgboebuba Nwankwo, was accused of witchcraft and subsequently killed by a local mob. On January 5, one Silas Okolie made a Facebook post on the incident: “Sad: Villagers disgrace woman caught with ‘voodoo’ item. The worst happened in Awgu in early 2022 as Woman alleged to be perpetrating evil in the community was caught after an alarm was raised due to her ill actions. Stories have it that a paper was picked in her room that contained names of people she has allegedly dealt with and those she will still do including her daughters and new husband’s name. Lots of incriminating Items was(sic) found in her abode during a thorough search by the villagers. She was beaten mercilessly and sent to her creator. Parading someone (evil Doer) in the market or roadside is the worst disgrace anybody will ever receive in Awgu, Enugu State. The evil man does must surely live with them”.

Unfortunately, some of the people who commented on the post supported the murder of this innocent woman. One said: “Thank you Lord for exposing her”; while another noted: “They said it was even her daughter that saw the snake inside a bowl of water with some juju under her bed, and some names she wrote in a sheet of paper including her daughter name and her new husband to be, that she is going to kill them next week, whenever she killed them she will mark it, there was a man from Awgu that was found dead on a palm tree last month, they said his name was also among the list…that was how she was exposed to the world by her daughter, but thank God she has been killed and thrown away to the bush. May God always protect his children”

When contacted, Okolie confirmed that he made the post the same day that Agatha was murdered. But one of those who commented stated: “yes they killed her the day before yesterday”. Thus Agatha might have been murdered on January 3. Whether on January 3 or 5. This innocent woman is no more. The state police command and office of the National Human Rights Commission in Enugu have been contacted to look into the matter. Nobody has come forward to report the case. According to an informant the following persons need to be interrogated: Mr. Remijus Nwankwo – the husband in London can be interviewed by the investigators. His daughter, Chikwado Nwankwo was said to have found the alleged list. She was said to have been to a church that allegedly told her that her mother was responsible for her misfortunes and that she and the father of her four children were the ones who helped the villagers to discover that the mother and grandmother were the witches causing problems. Mark Chukwuino was alleged by the husband to be his uncle who sent him similar lists. Emmanuel Nwankwo Mba is the uncle of the woman alleged to have suspected that she also killed his wife with witchcraft and must have seen her attackers because she was allegedly killed near his home.

As an informant explained: I have just spoken to a relative who told me that he suspected his uncle, Mr. Mark Chukwuino, as the instigator because he had been threatening his wife. According to him, the uncle recently sent him a list of dead enemies allegedly compiled by his wife but it was typewritten and so no way to prove that his wife compiled such a list. The uncle then sent another handwritten list but it was not in his wife’s handwriting. He asked the wife to leave the family home and go and stay in a hotel for a while but she told him that no one runs away from his father’s compound. The uncle then phoned and threatened to send ‘ndu ogba ozi’ or messengers to force her out if she did not leave. He said that someone later sent him a video of how some people broke into his house and dragged his wife out and beat her to death. He promised to forward the video to me and I will forward it to you as soon as I receive it. I asked him if he has reported the murder to the police and he said that I must know how the police work in Naija. I do not know what he means by that but I know that it is believed to be an abomination for a family member to invite the police in matters that involve other family members. He said that he had been ill since he returned from a visit home last year but that he is better now and is working to save for his airfare back home to see what he can do”.

Both the police and the NHRC offices in Enugu have asked anyone who knew about the case to come forward and lodge a complaint. Almost three months after this horrific murder, nobody has come to report the case. If nothing is done to investigate the case, this grievous crime will fizzle out. Nobody will be punished. But all advocates should not allow this to happen. According to an informant, no one has come forward to lodge a complaint because most people in the community thought the woman was a witch and the punishment was in order. Others are afraid of the lives an safety. A member of the community who was contacted regarding the case said: “Mgboebuba lili amosu laegbuishi ndu ibe ayi. Ive ogbulu egbu kalikwalu. Shite la eka ada e nwayi (‘Chikwado’ la di e) o kelu igbuko ka eshilu chofuta ive o la eme. Ndu Awgu lo daide juwe ive oji egbushi ndu eka va du ucha, ya shi lo ndu ino e ive ya legbu. Eva ndu o kalaeke igbukwe kaligbukwelu. O gbuagakwalu madu, kalegbukwe tufu adaide. Eva mpam la mmam, okeke kele la nwae nwoke, onyebuchi adae nwayi la nwae dukota la ekwukwo ndu o gbugolu egbu. Oo ndu Awgu jikolu eka kpufute la orie Awgu, megbuo akaje, kpuluihia bia la uhumbele ezi nnae lo tigbuo ye, palu ozue ga gbavuo la ejo ovia du la nduegu ululor. (“Mgboebuba ate witchcraft and was killing our people. The number she killed was a lot. Through the efforts of her daughter (‘Chikwado’ and her husband) whom she was preparing to kill too, that was how it was discovered what she was doing. Awgu people caught her and questioned why she was killing innocent people who have clean hands, she said that her enemies were the ones that she killed. The names of the people she was preparing to kill were numerous. She had killed too many people and was going to kill more before she was caught. My father and mother, Okeke Kele and his son, Onyebuchi, his daughter, and his grandchild were among the names found in the book of the people she had killed. The people of Awgu joined hands to drag her to Orie Awgu marketplace, mocked her, dragged her to her father’s compound in Obugo village, and beat her to death, then they carried her corpse and threw it away in the evil forest at the farm settlement of her husband’s village, Ululor”).

The informant said that the deceased refused to reveal the names of others who were suspected to be in her ‘witch’ group. Hence they killed her. The state police command in Enugu should rise to the occasion and take all necessary measures to investigate the murder of Agatha Mgboebuba Nwankwo from Awgu and bring to justice all those who carried out this horrific crime.

Appendix I: Footnotes

[1] Founder, Humanist Association of Nigeria; Founder & CEO, Advocacy for Alleged Witches; Convener, Decade of Activism Against Witch Persecution in Africa: 2020-2030.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 27, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/2022/08/27/police-bring-to-justice-killers-of-mgboebuba-nwankwo-in-enugu/.

Image Credit: Leo Igwe.

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2022-08-22

The Greenhorn Chronicles 21: Lesley Daldry on Experiences with Horses (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,810

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Lesley Daldry is a client of Symatree Farm. She discusses: some moments of thinking about; horses as a young person; the family farm; horses something not needed at the time; finding Symatree; a natural relationship that develops; healing social environment with animals; the unspoken power of horses; a sensibility; adaptations to their behaviour; and Manitoban weather.

Keywords: Canada, equestrianism, horses, Lesley Daldry, ponies, Symatree Farm, The Greenhorn Chronicles.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 21: Lesley Daldry on Experiences with Horses (1)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

*Interview conducted June 24, 2022.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Lesley Daldry who is a client of Symatree Farm. So, when it comes to your background with horses, what were some moments of thinking about horses as a young person or having real-life experience with them, or ponies?

Lesley Daldry[1],[2]: I started off. My first experience was at a camp as a camper, eventually as a staff person. When I worked as a staff person, I also had a chance to spend a bit more time with horses. It was one of the first things to ride on the weekends. That was kind of my first experience, which wasn’t super eventful. I enjoyed it. I didn’t “ohhh” and ‘awe” over it. Coming out from there, I was looking to more of an opportunity to invest a bit of time in a new place. I had some life changes. I had a bit more time to do something different.

I was looking for something with animals and on a farm. I grew up going to a family farm and enjoying it. That’s how I came across Symatree.

Jacobsen: So, the family farm, itself, how many horses were there? How large was this place?

Daldry: Oh! The family farm, we had pretty much every animal but a horse.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Daldry: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Were the horses something not needed at the time, or just something not part of the palette of the animals kept as a happenstance?

Daldry: They had horses once upon a time. It was before I was around. I spent time going there as a kid. They had horses before I arrived. I didn’t get to meet those horses. I don’t know why they switched out. I don’t know why.

Jacobsen: So, what is the jump there from the horses there to finding Symatree?

Daldry: They were somewhat connected. I had a really good experience on the farm. I enjoyed it. I loved being around the animals. It was part of who I am. I learned that my grandfather had a real interest in starting a horse ranch one day. He never did do it. But it was something that he wanted to do, which made sense to me why I was so drawn to Symatree.

I was timid with the horses in the beginning because I hadn’t been around horses in some time. Once I spent a bit of time with them, and felt more comfortable, which was great, I enjoyed the being outside and most of all the people there, and the horses. It has been a really interesting experience getting to know everybody and the horses, spending some time with them, and some of the things already talked about (off tape) in caring about the horses. I was learning something new and different. Yes, they have a real special energy to them.

The people, everybody is just absolutely lovely and encouraging and very boundaried and respectful. I’ve been a true new addition to being part of a family. It has been lovely.

Jacobsen: When people come there, I am told that they are drawn to particular ponies or horses, and some are drawn to them. It is sort of a natural relationship that develops before they learn about the horse’s or pony’s history. Was this a similar experience for you when coming there?

Daldry: Yes, but I cannot explain it, there is a drawing that happened, but I don’t really know how or why. But I think it changes with the person, and grows, as the person becomes more aware of who they are. I think different horses are drawn to different people, and vice versa, at different points in their life. Different emotions or different physically, I would say that I was definitely having experiences, where I was drawn to the horses. They were drawn to me, in different ways. It has evolved. I don’t think it has stayed the same over time. It is something that changes over time.

You need the energy exchange between person and horse, It, definitely, keeps things growing and moving.

Jacobsen: When it comes to the kinds of therapeutic interventions people can have, or a healing environment one can have with animals, have you ever had any other experiences other than those with horses? A healing social environment with animals, is this something similar with other animals, or only something with horses, formally?

Daldry: Definitely, only horses, I would say, I think, all animals bring some kind of healing energy to people, for sure. I would say that that kind of connection is very unique to horses. I find it very difficult to articulate. The other animals, there is definitely something there in terms of that calm and that bringing the heart rate down, and feeling sort of more congruent with who you are at that particular time.

Horses, I would say, it is a very unique exchange. I found it difficult, in many ways, to say, “Yes,” to this interview because it is hard to express it. Because it is such a unique experience. You can have it with other animals. For me, it is definitely the most potent energy exchange compared to other animals.

Jacobsen: When I was coming into the industry, I’ve been in it 8 or 9 months. Another interviewee referenced the idea of the unspoken power of horses, or ponies. That’s the kind of sense that I’m getting from your response. It’s not something that you can necessarily per terms to, but you can sort of give a reference to the inaudible. Things like “unspoken.” Because they are so large that they should be in charge of the relationship, but they are, sort of, letting you relate with them. They are kind of gentle in that way.

Daldry: Yes, the horses at Symatree, there is a variation in size. So, most of the horses are quite small. There are three different paddocks. There are the smalls, the mids, and the bigs. They all bring something to the table, not just size wise, but personality wise. It is very difficult to articulate. I think people really need to experience it to get a full understanding, because I think the experience for each person is going to be different. I don’t think it’s the same for everybody.

For me, it isn’t even the same every time that I am with the horses. It is different each time. I just think they are [Laughing] amazing.

Jacobsen: There’s also a sensibility of working with either one of the facilitators or the owner with the horses as well. Do you think that greases the wheels with the relationship of the horse too?

Daldry: I don’t really spend much time in a therapeutic sense, in a formal sense, with them. Definitely, the people who work there have a lot of experience in facilitating a relationship between a person and a horse. So, I would say that that is a very unique this to Symatree. I don’t think it exists in a lot of other places. They have allowed a lot of people to go to their edge of comfort and try something different, try something new, in a way that is super safe and very respectful, and very boundaried. They let the experience happen in the way that it is meant to happen. The people that are there are good when asking questions, growing and learning something new. I’ll just ask for guidance and go off and try it.

I find that really empowering because you have an opportunity to try something different and to experiment. You get instant feedback from the horse. It is never you independent because you are always in relationship, always in connect. Either with people or with horses there, it is even where you are standing in the yard or in a paddock. Wherever you are, it is like being part of a herd. Or where you move, so, the rest of the herd moves and adjusts to the move of the herd depending on its hierarchy and relationship within that particular paddock. You become a member of the herd in a way, which is really cool.

Because your movement, horses adjust and do what they need to do to be who they are, and to be part of the herd and to balance. It is a constant rebalancing that happens within the herd.

Jacobsen: How do you find their adaptations to their behaviour? Do you find them highly sensitive or more moderate in their body and behavioural tone?

Daldry: It really depends on the horse. Some are incredibly sensitive. You need to emit little energy for them to sort of respond to you. Other ones, it really depends. Most horses, it depends on my energy for that day, for my day, what I am bringing to that herd. They will respond, accordingly. If my energy is high or pretty low, for my happy place, everybody’s energy is working together. If someone’s energy is too high or too low, that’s horse or person. There’s a rejigging that has to happen to balance everything again. It really depends on the horse, the day, and the weather.

One thing that has surprised me over the years is seeing how things like weather really impact not only a person’s mood, but a horse’s mood, and their comfort level. That horses get irritable like people. They get happy like people do. There are a lot of parallels.

Jacobsen: How do you find Manitoban weather in particular? Because, for those reading this outside of Canada, parts of Manitoba are known for being very cold…

Daldry: …[Laughing]…

Jacobsen: …or volatile in the range of temperatures “available” to residents.

Daldry: Yes, it is definitely cold here in the Winter. That’s for sure. Summers can be incredibly hot. So, yes, there’s definitely something to consider there. Even just the way that the horses are, in the paddocks on hot days and rainy days sometimes, they will need to be inside the shelters. You need to go where they are to visit them. Some will come out. It definitely takes some adjusting. You have to adjust what you wear. I have to be very conscious.

When I am at the farm for half of a day or a full day the whole time, obviously, I have to dress for it and keep in mind how much I am moving, and adjusting for that. I’m sure some horses have some work to them. It is really interesting to see how much extra hair that they grow in the Fall and the Winter, especially, then they shed it all off in the Summer. It is amazing how they adapt to it. It really is. I used to think the cold was the worst for them. Actually, I think it is the heat, because they have so much fur.

Footnotes

[1] Client, Symatree Farm.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/daldry-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 21: Lesley Daldry on Experiences with Horses (1)[Online]. August 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/daldry-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 21: Lesley Daldry on Experiences with Horses (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/daldry-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 21: Lesley Daldry on Experiences with Horses (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/daldry-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 21: Lesley Daldry on Experiences with Horses (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/daldry-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 21: Lesley Daldry on Experiences with Horses (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/daldry-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 21: Lesley Daldry on Experiences with Horses (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/daldry-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 21: Lesley Daldry on Experiences with Horses (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/daldry-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 21: Lesley Daldry on Experiences with Horses (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/daldry-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 21: Lesley Daldry on Experiences with Horses (1)[Internet]. (2022, August 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/daldry-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-08-22

The Greenhorn Chronicles 20: Moya Byrne Merrin on High Point Equestrian Centre and Equine Labour Shortages (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,635

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Moya Byrne Merrin is the Director of High Point Equestrian Centre. She discusses: foot in the door moment for the equine world; the industry looking now; finding people who are willing to do the hard labour; a common experience in equestrianism among managers and owners; and separation between haves and have-nots, growing income inequality, and worker insecurity.

Keywords: Canada, dressage, equestrianism, High Point Equestrian Centre, Moya Byrne Merrin, The Greenhorn Chronicles.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 20: Moya Byrne Merrin on High Point Equestrian Centre and Equine Labour Shortages (1)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

*Interview conducted January 2, 2022.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, today, we are here with Moya of High Point Equestrian Centre. We’ve had a chance to explore the facilities and discuss some of the issues facing the equestrian world at the moment. Your focus is dressage. Although, this is one particular professional area of equestrianism. There’s a wide range. However, each facet of equestrianism, I think, can provide a bit of a glimpse into different images of equestrianism as a whole. So, to get started, to give people an idea, what was your first foot in the door moment for the equine world?

Moya Byrne Merrin[1],[2]: My first in the door was my parents buying me a $500 horse. I was, probably, around 10-years-old. It kept me out of trouble. Then there was a bit pause. I was 28 when I began picking up horses again with a retired race horse, which was quite young and quite athletic. That started. I did not plan or foresee – my husband and I – an equestrian lifestyle. Where, we have ended up owning a facility and running & managing it, which does events and focuses on education.

Jacobsen: How is the industry looking now, in terms of dressage?

Merrin: We have a lot of support in our area. We have amazing trainers and access to them. People from the Interior come down and are willing to train here with coaches that are allowed to come in. We also bring in trainers from all around the world. There is a lot of support for the education and the shows. We a show series, which is a lower-level. It is called the schooling show. It is not rated. You are welcome to try your first ride. You are welcome to try the next level. It is a very fun atmosphere. We take the precautions and do the proper things.

We focus on the schooling and the education aspect of it. We sell out every show, prior to Covid. This has been something that we have been working on during Covid because there wasn’t any access to the rate shows. We couldn’t do this. We could do this safely on a smaller scale. We have had overwhelming response to our show series. It looks like the sport is thriving. But when you get to those bigger rated shows that cost a lot more, it thins out. It really does seem to be a divide between the professionals and the amateurs.

The amateurs used to make up the bulk of these shows. Now, it is about 50/50. People are finding out series more interesting, or cannot afford it.

Jacobsen: Staffing, this is an issue, not only in the times of the coronavirus pandemic, but also in the industry as a whole: Finding people who are willing to do the hard labour. So, the issue of finding quality labour in the midst of a pandemic and in a field requiring, simply put, hard labour.

Merrin: So, prior to the pandemic, staffing has always been an issue, finding reliable, hard working staff that are willing to look beyond the immediate. It is never the same day in a barn. There are always things that come up and happen, and people will sign up to stall cleaning. That’s it. If you ask them to do anything else, they won’t listen. It is not in their job description. I don’t know if this people being more educated about or not, but people say, “This is not in my job description. I am not doing it”

Then you get these rare gems who either have horses and want to be here because they understand. They want to be a part of this. This is their long-term goal. Those are the ones that we have had the most success with; they’re flexible, adaptable, and hardworking. Either their parents have instilled it in them, “This is what you need to do to get a horse,” rather than simply going to Starbucks and getting a set course.

Yes, the barn work does offer more flexibility. But we tend to find a conflict between those who want to ride and compete, who really understand the sport, because those are the times where we need those people to work. [Laughing] That’s been tough. What I have found works fast is if they don’t actually ride, they want to simply be working with the horses, being around them, and in the lifestyle. They, sometimes, get the opportunity to take on someone else’s horse. So, they get the fix that way.

Between pay and the type of work, they find it difficult. The pandemic, actually, had more people out of work. They couldn’t go elsewhere. We had some really good people come in and just do it short-term because it is not a long-term profession. There’s no room here, in this particular facility, to work your way up. Previously, you could have worked your way to a management position. We don’t have that. We are very small.

Because we are a small operation. I don’t think that we’re alone in that. We find part-timers who are willing to come here for a few hours and to work hard. I am looking for a unique person.; So, it has been incredibly challenging.

Jacobsen: Is this a common experience in equestrianism among managers and owners (outside of dressage)?

Merrin: I have seen this on both sides. You can post for Fraser Valley barn help. Either the hours aren’t suitable for them. There’s not a lot flexibility for them. It, basically, comes down to pay. People want $20/hr or more for a job that doesn’t really require what a horse needs. But if it is only 4 hours of work, and if it only pays $20/hr, there are people who are worth it. For here, you earn it. If you work full-time here, and if you get good benefits, you earned it. But now, with the number of horses, you are working part-time. It is, maybe, 4 hours of work during the day and another 2 hours at night.

So, it is a bit of struggle for us. Elsewhere in the industry, I see find someone working 8 hours challenging. It is a lot of physical labour. They burnout. Career advancement is an issue. We don’t have it. You don’t see it. Unless, you are a trainer. Trains have the upper hand in that area. So, the labour thing will come back to life in this industry for sure. We have to pay more. That’s the reality there. We have to look after them.

Jacobsen: Some issues for larger scale aspects of the industry. The separation between haves and have-nots, growing income inequality, and worker insecurity cause issues for the industry as a whole. How is this impacting Canadian equestrianism as a whole?

Merrin: I cannot speak for Canadian equestrianism because we are unique. What I find is, people want a place to live and to work. If we can offer live-work, some of their work can be done here, then they could work elsewhere advancing whatever they do. Some of that problem is directly related to the ALR (Agricultural Land Reserve). It won’t allow some forms of secondary, etc., etc. If you own your own property, getting the permit to have somebody else above your barn is incredibly impactful, everybody wants a suite in a barn. Yet, we’re not allowed.

It is getting the labour. Getting here, you need a car, and so on. A real advantage to have somewhere to work and live. A working student can live there and they will work for you. That used to be a very common thing. I don’t know if that’s so feasible anymore with the bylaws and the regulations. I can see it impacting our community. I don’t know if the job security in our industry is keeping up with the payment and benefits for any of these things, or if it can, because a lot of this stuff is done contract. “I work for you. You give me a lesson.”

“Training and skills, I get to be around your horse and learn how to do this.” I don’t know what the job security is; I know what our labour laws state. I used to be very careful. They can show up; they can quit. Here again, it is different. I really try to have communication and try to keep our staff very happy, etc. It is coming out and saying, “It is a crappy day. Let me help you.”

Most barn owners are trainers. If they are really good, then they can pick who works for them and then they can set the demand, “This is what the job is, and this is what I expect.” It is like interning. Which doesn’t give much financial reward, and depending on the people worked for can be a bit of slave trade, labour laws caught up with that, so did the kids and their parents. The independent worker just looking to do stalls.

Generally, we find the young motivated. They are great. They are here for a short-time. They are off to school, to get that trainer, to get to the next level. They are, usually, short and sporadic. If you get the older, seasoned worker, they, usually, have a vice or two. They’re immovable in their ways of working. You have to adapt to that. You to take your pick. I think that’s the same in any industry. I worked in the restaurant industry. Some are great, but are going to school or something. Then they are out of here. Then the seasoned, “I like to do these things this way.” They are honest, show up, and get the job done. “Okay, bye.” I think it is more of a gig industry.

It depends.

Footnotes

[1] Director, High Point Equestrian Centre.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 20: Moya Byrne Merrin on High Point Equestrian Centre and Equine Labour Shortages (1)[Online]. August 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 20: Moya Byrne Merrin on High Point Equestrian Centre and Equine Labour Shortages (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 20: Moya Byrne Merrin on High Point Equestrian Centre and Equine Labour Shortages (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 20: Moya Byrne Merrin on High Point Equestrian Centre and Equine Labour Shortages (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 20: Moya Byrne Merrin on High Point Equestrian Centre and Equine Labour Shortages (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 20: Moya Byrne Merrin on High Point Equestrian Centre and Equine Labour Shortages (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 20: Moya Byrne Merrin on High Point Equestrian Centre and Equine Labour Shortages (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 20: Moya Byrne Merrin on High Point Equestrian Centre and Equine Labour Shortages (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 20: Moya Byrne Merrin on High Point Equestrian Centre and Equine Labour Shortages (1)[Internet]. (2022, August 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/merrin-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-08-22

The Greenhorn Chronicles 19: Will Clinging on Canadian Farriers (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,689

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Will Clinging is the President of the Association of Farrier Trainers of Canada and the Vice President of the Western Canadian Farrier’s Association. He discusses: family connections to being a farrier; common story; first starting on a horse; to come back or rediscover; pivotal choices; differences between the education younger farriers might get now; and historical knowledge of the first farriers in Canadian society.

Keywords: Association of Farrier Trainers of Canada, Canada, equestrianism, farriers, The Greenhorn Chronicles, Western Canadian Farrier’s Association, Will Clinging.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 19: Will Clinging on Canadian Farriers (1)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

*Interview conducted July 4, 2022.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, today, we are here with Will Clinging, the Vice President of the Western Canadian Farrier Association and the President of The Association of Farrier Trainers of Canada, which is the National Association that’s been newly formed. I’d like to start off with a narrative arc focusing on some of the background. You can only answer as much as you feel comfortable with, but it lets people know a little bit where you’re from. So, were there any family connections to being a farrier?

Will Clinging[1],[2]: Yes and no, many generations ago… I’m from Ireland. I do have blacksmiths in my lineage on my father’s side, but not that I would have ever net any…they were long gone before I was born.

Jacobsen: What about horses for yourself? A lot of people who are trainers or riders, a common story is starting when they were single digit age with horses or with the pony club, for instance.

Will: Yeah, I’m probably not too far off of that. My mother rode when she was young. When I was a kid, we had a couple of ponies and a horse. So, that’s where I learned to ride. I didn’t ride from the time I was probably 10 years old until the time I was 20. And then I rediscovered it.

Jacobsen: What was that feeling when you were first starting on a horse? Do you recall?

Will: As a child? No, I had no idea. Marginal terror, probably, and the total lack of understanding or control or knowledge, but just get on and go for it and hope for the best – which didn’t always happen.

Jacobsen: Why did you decide to come back or rediscover in the 20s?

Will: That’s a good question. I spent my teenage years growing up in Surrey. I wanted to be a carpenter, actually. I spent a couple of years building houses and hated every minute of it. And it was suggested to me that, maybe, I should go to college and take a couple of courses on agriculture because my dad was involved in agriculture, more from an agribusiness perspective. So, I thought, “Why not?” I took a couple of courses at the University of the Fraser Valley in Chilliwack. I really enjoyed it. Then I entered into a two-year diploma program in livestock production. That led me to working on some ranches in the interior and that kicked off my equestrian or my horse career. That was in 1994 and here we are in 2022. I’m still in the horse business.

Jacobsen: If you could take a moment to envision back to that period of 1994 to the time in 2022 now, are there any points in that career trajectory where you would have made a modification to pivotal choices?

Will: I just wanted to be a cowboy, whether that was sort of romance from my childhood reading Westerns or whatever. When I was a teenager in high school and graduating, I actually had no concept that being a cowboy was really a thing, and then having gone to college to study agriculture. You realize that actually ranching and beef production and cowboys do exist. It sort of just became this thing that I wanted to do. And, I guess, if I hadn’t chosen that, I don’t know where I would be honestly because I’ve really spent almost my entire adult life working with horses, probably, because of that first decision to take a course. I don’t even know what it was, and then a night course at Fraser Valley College on agriculture. It just sort of opened all kinds of doors that seemed a lot more interesting than living in Surrey, building houses. Then getting onto the ranches, it was a whole different experience. One that I wasn’t really familiar with, but I just loved it. You’re outside. You get to work with livestock. It was a whole different perspective that I just kind of found easy and comfortable. It really guided the rest of my professional career in a variety of different aspects, but they all come back to horses at the end. I’ve been a cowboy. I’ve been a farrier. I’ve been a horse trainer. I’ve been a cowboy. So, I have kind of been bounced around back and forth between those careers, but, at the end of the day, it’s still really all been about horses. This is going on a long time now.

Jacobsen: Do you notice any differences between the education younger farriers might get now compared to, say, two decades ago?

Will: I would. I would say that when I started, I didn’t really have any education. It was just what I learned from other cowboys that I worked with; and there were definitely shoeing programs that you could go to, but they were all short in duration. A couple to three months, it was all sort of hands-on. If you didn’t work with somebody, you didn’t learn anything. And nowadays, with the internet access to information, the ability to travel, and the popularity of the horse industry, it’s changed a lot in the last 25 years. Natural horsemanship, you’ve got horsemanship clinics. You’ve got more shows. It’s had a far broader public image. It’s got a lot more people into it. The education now, the colleges that teach farriery have expanded. The programs are longer, there’s far more in-depth knowledge that’s expected. Then the last, probably, 10 years with YouTube and the internet, webinars, and YouTube videos, the amount of knowledge that young farriers have access to is really almost endless.

It’s mostly a self-guided path of education. But this is definitely a trade that if you’re into it, it’s easy to get into it because now you have access to things that you didn’t have access to 25 years ago. But if you’re not into, you don’t last very long. So, I would say that now is probably the best time ever to be a farrier if you’re interested in professional development, education, competition, and certification. There’s an endless limit to what you can learn and how you can share that knowledge or use that knowledge. The farrier industry is quite regional and being where I am on Southern Vancouver Island. It’s not like living in rural British Columbia or Alberta or other parts of the country. There’s a real value placed on the animals here. There’s a high expectation for care for the horses, but not such a high expectation for performance.

A lot of adult amateur riders here that have the resources and the facilities and the care and the love and all of those things that go into making good horse people. We’re really fortunate here. So, there’s a high expectation for knowledge and skills. In other areas, they don’t have access to the same type of clientele. Therefore, the demand for knowledge or professionalism or education isn’t as great, but, in this trade itself, really it often becomes a very personal journey on improvement and how good a job you’re doing. There’s a lot of heritage involved. There’s still quite a few farriers that make all their own shoes. There’s a real pride in the craftsmanship that they bring to the trade handmade tools. It’s one of the oldest professions in the world. We still make our living with a hammer and a piece of steel and heat. So, the technology hasn’t affected the fundamentals, but the access to information, knowledge, science, research, imaging, and the study of mechanics and movement is really quite astounding in where it has come. So, if you’re interested in becoming a good farrier, there’s really an endless amount of information that you can access. If you’re not, you’ll end up probably not staying in the industry very long because it just becomes a hard way to make a living.

Jacobsen: Is there any historical knowledge of the first farriers in Canadian society? Where is an organization devoted to them? Is there a particular individual or school of people known?

Will: From an organized farrier perspective, the WCFA has been around for probably 40 odd years. There was a small group of farriers in the Fraser valley that sort of assembled and created this association, guys like Randy Blackstock and others. They just had this thought that, maybe, they should organize. They’ve helped improve the industry and the trade and really they were thinking far beyond their time because, historically, farriers have not worked well together. They’ve often considered themselves to be in competition with other farriers and only a limited amount of business. So, they didn’t always get along. I would think that that dynamic has changed a lot. There are a lot more horses. They’re used much more for recreation than they are for work.

The people that can afford horses in the Fraser valley or on the island or in much of Canada. They can afford their horses and those farriers that are of any good quality are all so busy that we’re actually trying to give clients away rather than trying to argue with our competitors about pricing and service because ‘I can do a better job cheaper if you hire me’; none of that really happens anymore. So, the farrier community has become a far broader community I would say regionally, nationally, and internationally. On my Facebook page, I have probably 500 farriers from all over the world that I’m friends with; and I message with, and I would think that most other farriers that are involved in the community would say the same thing. It’s really astounding where I can message a farrier in the UK and ask for some advice and then get a message back fast within relative to the time zones, but the sharing of information is unbelievable. It wouldn’t really have happened if it hasn’t been for those associations that started out 40 years ago with the goal of trying to bring the community together. But in Canada, who did it first? I honestly couldn’t tell you. It is before my times.

Footnotes

[1] President, Association of Farrier Trainers of Canada; Vice President, Western Canadian Farrier’s Association.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clinging-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 19: Will Clinging on Canadian Farriers (1)[Online]. August 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clinging-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 19: Will Clinging on Canadian Farriers (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clinging-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 19: Will Clinging on Canadian Farriers (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clinging-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 19: Will Clinging on Canadian Farriers (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clinging-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 19: Will Clinging on Canadian Farriers (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clinging-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 19: Will Clinging on Canadian Farriers (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clinging-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 19: Will Clinging on Canadian Farriers (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clinging-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 19: Will Clinging on Canadian Farriers (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clinging-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 19: Will Clinging on Canadian Farriers (1)[Internet]. (2022, August 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clinging-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-08-22

Conversation with Nozomu Wakai on Life, Work, and Views: Member, Japan Mensa (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,929

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Nozomu Wakai is a Hard Rock and Heavy Metal Artist with specializations in guitar, production, composition, and design He studied Jazz at Senzoku Gakuen College of Music. He has worked with Mari Hamada. His first album was “Requiem for a Scream.” He produced a 2015 EP “Anecdote Of The Queens.” Wakai’s project, DESTINIA, began in 2014. He is signed with Ward Music. He discusses: growing up; extended self; family background; youth with friends; education; purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence; extreme reactions to geniuses; greatest geniuses; genius and a profoundly gifted person; necessities for genius or the definition of genius; work experiences and jobs held; job path; myths of the gifted; God; science; tests taken and scores earned; range of the scores; ethical philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; worldview; meaning in life; source of meaning; afterlife; life; and love.

Keywords: Hard Rock, Heavy Metal, HELLIQ Society, Japan, Japan Mensa, life, Nozomu Wakai, views, Ward Music, work.

Conversation with Nozomu Wakai on Life, Work, and Views: Member, Japan Mensa (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?

Nozomu Wakai[1],[2]*: My family on my father’s side was Christian, and my parents often told me the story of how my grandfather named me after a letter in the Bible. My mother’s side of the family came from the northernmost part of Japan, Hokkaido, so I remember hearing stories about the Ainu, the northern folklore of Japan.

Jacobsen: Have these stories helped provide a sense of an extended self or a sense of the family legacy?

Nozomu: I think that both the fact that my name was taken from the Bible and the fact that I am a northerner had a great influence on the formation of my self-identity. In Japan, both Christians and northern folk are surprisingly minorities.

Jacobsen: What was the family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Nozomu: My family was a very normal middle-class family. The only thing that was unusual was that we were a little more westernized than other families, partly because my father had studied in France. My father was often transferred for his own reasons, and we lived in various places in Japan during my childhood. I think my parents were not very religious. They were very Japanese. I think I had more religious and philosophical views from my childhood.

Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and an adolescent?

Nozomu: I moved to many different places due to many job transfers, but I was able to make many friends in all of them, and my social skills were very high. I had a lot of general knowledge about the world before I became an adolescent, so I spent a lot of my adolescent years with adults through music, sports, and art. I felt like an incredible kid around them, and I did a lot of pretending. lol.

I guess I spent more time having fun than others because I hardly ever studied growing up.

Jacobsen: What have been some professional certifications, qualifications, and trainings earned by you?

Nozomu: The only qualification would be a black belt in karate. I took music seriously until I started in high school. I even won second place in a big competition. I thought I could make a living at it. Until I got injured. Then I started playing music in high school, became a professional, and went on to music college and majored in jazz. But what I do now is heavy metal artists. I am also a professional graphic designer, although I am not qualified. I’ve been good at drawing since I was a little.

Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?

Nozomu: One of the ways to look at myself. Something like a puzzle is also a hobby.

Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?

Nozomu: I think I was probably in elementary school when I was first discovered. In my time, there were intelligence tests and only students who scored exceptionally high were supposed to let their parents know. I became aware of this again on my own in 2019 when I developed a severe form of Hunt’s Syndrome. I was concerned about my cognitive and thinking abilities, so I took an intelligence test to see if there were any deficiencies. That gave me the numbers.

Nozomu: This is my opinion, but people feel “interest and awe” at the same time for things beyond their understanding. They also have “admiration or jealousy” for things that they understand and that are above their own level. This is my experience and observation of the human psyche. When there is an “extraordinary talent,” there is a corresponding “extraordinary reaction. I suspect that if there is a high level of awe and jealousy, it will be frowned upon, and if there is a high level of interest and admiration, it will be praised. As can be inferred from the foregoing, when flaunting obvious talents, one must be prepared to be mentally exposed to negative reactions. I can see why it would be wiser not to flaunt it if you don’t have to. Well, I’m a musician and an artist, so I can’t help it, and there is a catharsis to both slander and praise that can’t be explained by logic alone.

Jacobsen: Who seems like the greatest geniuses in history to you?

Nozomu: Leonardo da Vinci, I think. There are many great thinkers, but I feel that Leonardo da Vinci is a step above the rest in that he also possesses an indefinable “sense” of artistic talent. I feel that Leonardo da Vinci is one step ahead of other great artists and genius. It’s just my personal preference, though.

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?

Nozomu: It’s like the difference between hardware and software, I guess it’s hard to compare. I think the concept of genius is what we call specs in computers. A profoundly intelligent person can be reached if he or she has the right specs, but not a genius. However, a genius cannot be a profoundly intelligent person if the genre of his or her work does not match the specifications.

Jacobsen: Is profound intelligence necessary for genius?

Nozomu: Genius is a different concept than intelligence or knowledge, so intelligence or knowledge is something you may or may not have. That’s why there were geniuses with intelligence, and there were others like Mozart who could not be figured by intelligence.

There are geniuses who can think freely without being bound by anything because they don’t have the filter of intellect or useless knowledge. Sometimes, such factors are the reason why we cannot arrest geniuses who are inclined to do evil. Because their imagination is completely different from that of ordinary people.

Jacobsen: What have been some work experiences and jobs held by you?

Nozomu: I have been a professional musician since my late teens. At the same time, I have also been working professionally as a graphic designer and advertising planner, which was my side job, since my mid-twenties. As an interesting part-time job, I used to imitate a detective and get paid for solving problems.

Jacobsen: Why pursue this particular job path?

Nozomu: As mentioned, I was obsessed with karate and planned to make a living at it. When I got to high school, I started playing heavy metal and was hooked. I had no musical experience, but I mastered it like crazy, and three years later I ended up touring all over Japan with a small band and management company came along. When it came time to go to college, I was torn between art and music, so I decided to go with music. I could draw very well in art from a young age, and my high school art teacher strongly recommended art, but I chose music, which was a little less my skilled, and went on to a music college. As for design, I didn’t make enough money after I started playing music professionally, so I used to design flyers. I started designing flyers a lot, and then I started getting work from big companies, and I became a professional.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses? Those myths that pervade the cultures of the world. What are those myths? What truths dispel them?

Nozomu: Archimedes jumped out of the bath and ran around the city screaming in his nude joy, Da Vinci dug his own grave and dissected it, and so on. All these stories, along with the myths of greatness, are anecdotes of geniuses that would be impossible for any ordinary person to imagine. I think it’s all because they are too focused.

They can’t stop their ideas and senses on their own. But I guess any eccentricities are trivial in front of the results that amaze everyone.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?

Nozomu: All of them have various effects on people, such as uniting many people, shifting responsibility for something, giving a core to one’s thought, and so on. They are all very useful and useful things. I am impressed and think it is very wonderful. And any person can have a reason for death and life. And any person can have a reason for death and life.

Philosophy, theology, or religion. It may be the best of the wisdom of life that people have created. If all this is in the hands of God or Buddha, then our understanding of what they rightly are in this dimension would be beyond our ability to reach.

At this point, I think the limit of what we can do is to philosophically discuss what their existence is. I don’t know the answer, but as long as we are facing it, there must be something.

I may be making music by turning these ideas of life and death derived from philosophy, theology, religion, and God into general events and further into lyrics and sounds.

Interestingly, God and the devil appear frequently in heavy metal lyrics. On the other hand, there are many bands that express their views in their music within their own musical tastes, with some questioning the existence and significance of each.

When you think about it, heavy metal itself is really close to religion and philosophy. Convenient, isn’t it? lol

Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?

Nozomu: Science is one of my strong interests in the challenge to this world. To figure out what is ungraspable, even though in reality there is some answer. I’m not a party to solving the riddle, but I am very interested in the answer. In what kind of space and how do living things, including human beings, repeat themselves as life? I think it is interesting that there are also parts of history that are closely related to astronomy and medicine, although they are generally antithetical to areas such as God and religion. I think it is only through the concept of science, which includes natural science to a greater or lesser extent, that things that are not concrete, such as God, thought, and art, which are unknown, can also gain form. In this aspect, in my world, both God and science are factors that govern our life and death as human beings.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations) for you?

Nozomu: In the tight test, IQ 140 on the FSIQ with WAIS III (SD 15), FSIQ 156 with WAIS IV (SD 15). WAIS IV may not be an official result, though, since the time period from WAIS III was a bit shorter. Both had low verbal IQ. Perception and processing speed seem to be superior.

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Nozomu: I am sympathetic to the stance of relating morality to free choice, as Immanuel Kant thinks.

The idea of a categorical imperative derived from free will in the metaphysics of human ethics is an indicator of my personality.

However, as a human being, I have unfinished weaknesses, so I just keep it in a corner of my mind.

Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Nozomu: I can understand social philosophy objectively, but I don’t think it has much influence on my way of life. I find it somewhat difficult to identify with any of the ideologies, and perhaps because I am an individualist, I am not interested in discussions from the perspective of society.

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Nozomu: In a world as complex and intertwined with diverse ideologies as modern society,

I think the act of questioning the nature of politics is necessary.

However, since I’m not in a position or position to think about politics, I don’t think I am greatly affected by it.

Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes some sense to you, even the most workable sense to you?

Nozomu: This is a subject of particular interest to me in philosophy. I think it is an individualism, though not a complete one. However, I do acknowledge the existence of objects even before recognition, and as for the existence and concept of God, I have yet to even determine my own interpretation of it. I believe that the confirmation of the existence of all things, life and death, consciousness, God, etc., are the “destiny” of man since time immemorial to be discussed.

Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Nozomu: I believe that philosophy is a mediator between man and the absolute other, nature and society. Between all people and things in the world, all value judgments about nature and society are based on a particular worldview, large or small. It has the attributes of the world that is other to the individual, but it is alien to the world as an objective entity, and in that sense it exists within the individual. So from the side of the world, which is the absolute other, it is a conception subordinate to the individual.

Of course, I ‘m the same way. I think the reason we are discussing all philosophies is because there is a philosophical system that encompasses the world view. So in that sense it is of great significance to me personally. Unfortunately, I am a heavy metal musician, not a philosopher, so I don’t have the knowledge to absorb all the philosophies. I never studied philosophy, only read a few books when I was younger. It would be nice to study philosophy properly if I had the chance.

Jacobsen: What provides meaning in life for you?

Nozomu: To face one’s self. To “burn your life hard,” to use a literary expression.

As Nietzsche said, “the meaning of life is to live authentically and powerfully, creating one’s own goals and values.” So, I continue to search for it and do what I have to do. I am free to do what I will.

I have a side of pragmatism and nihilism in me, but I think Nietzsche’s words are a good description of the meaning of life in today’s society, and I share it.

Maybe it’s because Japan is a particularly non-religious country.

Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?

Nozomu: Good question. I think it’s both. Nietzsche said something like value is a commitment between the world and yourself, and I believe it is generated on both sides if either side has it.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, why, and what form? If not, why not?

Nozomu: I don’t know whether to believe it or not, since it’s the next point we’re debating whether it’s there or not, and it’s there in spirit, but I think it is. Unfortunately, I can’t prove it definitively because I’m not dead. It is similar to the problem of proving God.

So, what exactly would be nice is if consciousness continued to exist in the spiritual realm after the death of the physical body. That would be more interesting and easier to write songs about. lol

It would be interesting to see a future where the possibility of multiple dimensions is scientifically proven and philosophical views of the afterlife are substantiated by science. It will be a real next step for all of us.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the mystery and transience of life?

Nozomu: The universe had a beginning, and whether by necessity or by chance, the life of man was born, and I exist today in the midst of it. For some reason, while I was seriously playing heavy metal, I am now being interviewed on a philosophical note. Life is so much fun! If it’s a predetermined destiny, it’s fun, if it’s a total coincidence, it’s real entertainment.

And all this is happening in the span of a few decades. It is a mystery and a miracle. If it were possible, I would love to live forever and see everything in the universe.

Oh, and making a deal with the devil for that might be a good idea. Heavy metal and the devil go hand in hand.

Jacobsen: What is love to you?

Nozomu: I can’t be definitive because there are so many things in my life. There may be more kinds than eros and agape and philia or eight, like the ancient Greeks.

Ultimately, I think “love” is something that is neither physical nor mental, something that is as close as possible to nothingness, something that is beyond the philosophical realm.

I think that love is something that is not physical or mental, but unfortunately I don’t have enough ability to reach that realm.

I can’t go beyond the realm of the typical TV romances and romantic comedies.

Oh,,,, sometimes it becomes suspense or mystery. That’s scary.

Yes, I can’t be a rock star without being popular with men and women. I just realized that. So, I live with a lot of love. Thank you.

Footnotes

[1] Member, HELLIQ Society; Member, Japan Mensa.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wakai-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Nozomu Wakai on Life, Work, and Views: Member, Japan Mensa (1)[Online]. August 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wakai-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 22). Conversation with Nozomu Wakai on Life, Work, and Views: Member, Japan Mensa (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wakai-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Nozomu Wakai on Life, Work, and Views: Member, Japan Mensa (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wakai-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Nozomu Wakai on Life, Work, and Views: Member, Japan Mensa (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wakai-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Nozomu Wakai on Life, Work, and Views: Member, Japan Mensa (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wakai-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Nozomu Wakai on Life, Work, and Views: Member, Japan Mensa (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wakai-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Nozomu Wakai on Life, Work, and Views: Member, Japan Mensa (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wakai-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Nozomu Wakai on Life, Work, and Views: Member, Japan Mensa (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wakai-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Nozomu Wakai on Life, Work, and Views: Member, Japan Mensa (1)[Internet]. (2022, August 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wakai-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-08-22

The Greenhorn Chronicles 18: Betty Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,864

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Betty Asseiro is an experienced mentor. She has been part of the team, running programs, developing programs, taking horse pictures, facilitating events and helping to take care of the horses! A key member of the team, Betty helps keep us all on track both in and out of the paddocks. Currently studying addictions and youth correctional counselling, Betty skillfully applies her combination of experience and education to plan and run the variety of youth programs we have in the best ways possible. She discusses: story with horses; kind of horse; her name; a naming kind of rule; involved with Symatree; the positions and the responsibilities; youth with issues; a very lucky and privileged position; anger; this internalization of the anger; horses being forgiving; and the intuitive nature of working around horses.

Keywords: addictions, anger, Betty, Canada, Dakota, equestrianism, The Greenhorn Chronicles, Kathy, mentor, Symatree Farm, youth.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 18: Betty Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

*Interview conducted June 14, 2022.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This is Betty from Symatree Farm. The stories that I’m gathering are early life stories. People get started very early in life with them. Or they have been around them and then they rediscover them later in life. What has been your story with horses?

Betty: I never left horses, but I definitely went on to a different path and came back to working with them. So, when I was very young, my mom loves horses. My mom is Kathy, the founder of Symatree Farm. So, we had horses boarded. We were always around them, and then when we moved out to the country. Obviously, it was around them. I was living on the farm, and then I took a bit of a different path in university and was in the city a lot, and then ended up coming back and now working with them. I have my own horse and I am just really appreciating them and working with them in a new life not as a little kid.

Jacobsen: What kind of horse do you have?

Betty: She is a just grey mare. She’s a mix of a bunch, but an absolutely amazing mentor. I feel like she’s really my partner in what we do.

Jacobsen: And what’s her name?

Betty: Her name is Dakota.

Jacobsen: And is that named after North/South Dakota or something else?

Betty: Honestly, we have a naming kind of rule that we follow. So, for our newest horses and for the horses that aren’t doubling as our personal horses, and just kind of equine mentors for the general public primarily, we let people on Facebook name them. They all vote. But with our horses, we find a name that we like for every single letter of the alphabet, and then we narrow it down to the top, like three or four, and then we’ll ask the horse. We’ll see which one in training and stuff they seem to respond to. That’s how we choose our names.

Jacobsen: How long have you been involved with Symatree?

Betty: I have been involved with Symatree on and off. I was always there as a kid. I would help out, but I have been involved as a facilitator and really working on the farm for the last four years.

Jacobsen: How did you start at Symatree in terms of the positions and the responsibilities? How’s that grown over time?

Betty: I came back to the farm as an assistant, so I was just helping out in the programming that Kathy and Barb were doing at the time and just found that I really loved it. I loved working with the kids. My interests started to grow. So, I asked to take on more responsibility. I started thinking about running camps with the kids that I was pretty passionate about working with, and then through school I started learning more. I got an education that really supported what we do here. So, I began working with all our youth and teen contracts that come through child and family services. So, that’s how I stepped into the role as lead youth facilitator working with all those contracts and working with those support teams.

Jacobsen: Who are the majority population of youth with issues, whether addictions or otherwise, coming to you?

Betty: I primarily work with youth who are like 7 to 13. They all come through child and family services. So, normally, the youth is struggling or is not open to going to therapy. So, they’re looking for a service provider who will make the child feel comfortable and who will get the child to think about their strengths and get the child a little bit more open to speaking to an adult and thinking about their feelings, and then usually enter talk therapy following that. I stay on the support team as a person they feel really comfortable with and a place that they feel really safe and they can kind of reset during the week.

Jacobsen: Now, as far as I know in psychology and psychiatry, and so on, individuals who are of mature age, after a time that brain is pretty well formed. So, any addictions or behavioral patterns or problems that they may have had up to that point may, more or less, be pretty well ingrained for the duration of their life without substantial intervention. For youth, up to age 13, you have sort of a very lucky and privileged position because the brain is still forming significantly, and so you get to see probably a lot more rapid change, a lot more flexibility cognitively and emotionally, in the young. What are some of the changes that you noticed in the youth coming to you and working with you over time?

Betty: I think that’s a really great point. That’s why I feel so lucky to be able to work with the youth that come, so that we can work together to get onto a path that’s going to feel a lot more comfortable for them as they get older. A lot of the kids that I work with start out very much with a lot of anger and a lot of frustration about their situation and not being able to share their feelings or have a sense of safety. So, being able to provide a safe place with the horses who are completely non-judgmental, if the child is angry, they’re allowed to say to the horse, “I’m feeling really angry today. I don’t want to be your friend.” The horse is going to say, “That’s okay for today and when you feel better I will be here,” and the child can come back to the horse the next week and say, “I feel like I can be your friend today. I’d like to be around you.” What working with the kids is all about is building friendships because kids are motivated to be friends with horses, I found they see this huge animal. They think, “Wow! They’re so cool.”

As soon as they find out, they can be the horse’s friend they go, “Okay, I’ll do whatever I can to make that happen.” So, the change that you see is the motivation and the real hard work that they put in to make sure their energy is right and make sure that they are really thinking about the words that they use and thinking about how if they scare the horse; they can make their friend feel better. I think that’s the power of horses because they are so forgiving. It allows the kids to have a space to experiment with their energy and with their words and that healthy experimentation is how they’re going to build healthy coping mechanisms for the future.

Jacobsen: The one emotion coming out in the last response was anger and those youth who are mainly dealing with anger tend to be boys. Is that the majority population of young coming to you?

Betty: I work with both. I find that the boys are a lot more externally angry and, oftentimes, the girls internalize that anger. Instead of lashing out to others, it’s lashing out on themselves. So, it’s a different way of feeling that frustration and feeling misunderstood.

Jacobsen: So, this internalization of the anger. Is this a manifestation of a depressive state in the girls when, maybe, it comes off in sarcastic comments or things of this nature?

Betty: It can definitely come across as very shut down, unwilling to even make eye contact, pretending to be disinterested in the horses, and kind of making sarcastic comments. In working with them, a lot of times, it can also come across as giving up really quickly. So, they’re asking the horse to follow them, and the horse turns to eat grass. They drop the lead line. They say, “It doesn’t matter. No, I don’t want to do this anymore. It’s not going to work.” They give up, or they whine, and say, “Oh, I can’t do this. I’m never going to be able to do this. Nobody likes me. Everybody hates me. The horse hates me…”

Jacobsen: Wow! That’s a lot.

Betty: Yes, that’s a lot of times how you’ll see that expressed.

Jacobsen: You mentioned the horses being forgiving. You did not say forgetful. So, I want to clarify. I mean I’ve only been in the industry about eight months. So, are the horses forgiving because they are forgetful, or are they not forgetful and still forgiving?

Betty: I believe that the horses are not forgetful and still forgiving. I have absolutely seen kids come back as teenagers who came when they were eight years old for like a summer camp. They come back as a teenager with a school group. They come back to visit with their family. The horses remember the people just as much as the people remember them. No matter what their experience was together. If the person comes with a new energy, if the person comes in with positivity, the horse is going to respond to that.

Jacobsen: When I talk to horse people, a lot of the language is around sense, feel, experience; the intuitive nature of working around horses. So, are horses in general very sensitive and intuitive to the “energy” the person around people around them is giving off?

Betty: I definitely think so and I think that’s something that’s absolutely magical about working with them and working with kids because a kid can come in and they are angry, they had a really rough car ride coming in and they come into the arena with big energy. They want to work with a quiet horse. Big energy and a shy animal aren’t going to work in a logical sense, but the kid is not their anger. The kid is not a bad day at school. If they come in, and they take a breath, and they breeze past their driver, and they breeze past me, and they go to talk to that horse more often than not, that shy horse will kind of look at the child. They’ll wait until the child’s energy is genuine. If the kid says, “I had a really bad day. I want to talk to you about it,” they can walk up to that horse and talk to that horse about their bad day, they can raise their voice when they’re talking about it and that shy horse will stay with them because they’re not angry at the horse. They’re simply expressing themselves and the horses realize that that’s okay. That’s not who they are underneath the anger that they’re feeling in that moment. They’re wanting to genuinely just be a friend. They’re looking to have the horse as a friend. That’s a relationship that they can share no matter if the child is sad in a moment or angry in a moment.

Footnotes

[1] Mentor, Symatree Farm.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/betty-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 18: Betty Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)[Online]. August 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/betty-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 18: Betty Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/betty-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 18: Betty Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/betty-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 18: Betty Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/betty-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 18: Betty Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/betty-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 18: Betty Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/betty-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 18: Betty Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/betty-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 18: Betty Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/betty-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 18: Betty Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)[Internet]. (2022, August 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/betty-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-08-22

The Greenhorn Chronicles 17: Cindy Waslewsky on Operations at Twin Creeks Ranch (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,287

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Cindy Waslewsky went to Stanford University and competed on the Varsity Gymnastics and Ski Teams. She earned a B.A. in Human Biology in 1982. She earned a Diploma in Christian Studies at Regent College in Vancouver, and a BC teachers’ certification from the University of British Columbia in 1984. She was the President of the Squamish Valley Equestrian Association. She is a certified English and Western coach. Waslewsky is co-owner of Twin Creeks Ranch. She discusses: horse maintenance; and clientele connection to horses.

Keywords: Canada, Cindy Waslewsky, equestrianism, Greenhorn Chronicles, Steve Waslewsky, Twin Creeks Ranch.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 17: Cindy Waslewsky on Operations at Twin Creeks Ranch (1)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

*Recording accidentally start a tad late, after the formal interview began, Steve Waslewsky joins the interview later.*

*Interview conducted January 2, 2022.*

Cindy Waslewsky[1],[2]: We can hot walk a horse in a circle, so that the shedrow goes in a circle. So, you can hot walk your horses undercover. That’s great if a horse is colicky or something like that. You need to monitor and walk the horse. You’ve got a space right there outside the stall to do that. So, we have crossties there and huge tack rooms that are insulated and one of our staff members lives in a suite that’s off that same barn. She’s a single girl. She worked at North Shore Equestrian Centre before she came to us, so a good experience that she’s got into the vet tech program starting January. And then across from the barn, we have two suites there, again staff. One’s a single fellow who does basic out maintenance. We have lots of equipment. So, he’ll harrow the arena, clear the trails. He’ll check the water lines, of course, with this cold snap, getting frozen lines working again and plowing snow. All that kind of stuff. Then to the left of his suite or to the right of his suite is a young couple, she works in the barn. Her partner is an IT guy and he works from home. So, when we had this bad weather, he was out helping Kira in the barn and then, as I said, Kayla who has the four kids. The partner was up helping the barn too, so we had extra help.

So, having everyone live on the property, they walk out. Because they’re feeding at seven in the morning. They’re feeding at noon. They’re feeding at five. They’re feeding at nine. So, to drive back and forth would not be very efficient, but you can go out there and feed at seven in the morning and then go in and warm up or have breakfast, come back out and start doing stalls and at 9:30, turn some of the horses out, some are in what we call “in-and-outs.”

When people contact us, I would say about almost half our stalls are now in-and-out because what my husband did is he created more in-and-outs off the back of the bar, and tried to make as many of the in-and-out stalls. Every other stall is an in-and-out because you don’t want the run, the pen, to be the same width as the stall; that’s too narrow. They can get cast and things like that. So, what you do is if one stall has an in-and-out, the next stall that horse gets led out to a paddock outside the next one’s in-and-out, where they can run in and out at will; and the next one we lead them out. So, we have good, generous paddocks. Every horse has a paddock. They get turned out no matter what. If pouring rain, they’re out for half the day. When they have this freezing weather, they were out for almost one o’clock in the afternoon, and then we brought them in for their lunch because the water was freezing. Even if we gave them a bucket, it was frozen before they needed it when they got fed their lunch. You cannot feed a horse without water available to them. They need water.

So, that was a limiting factor. So, we bring them in at one o’clock, and then have the lunch inside. Normally, we’ll keep them out as much as we can keep them out and in the spring and the fall. In the summer, they could be out 24 hours a day. They have more room in a paddock than they do in a stall. They can see their neighbor, but they each get their own feed in a feeder that’s on the rubber matting. So, the thing doesn’t fall onto the crusher. The gravel stuff that they’re living on and they have auto waters as well. We took out all the hog fuel and put in crusher which is a blend of different kinds of sand and fills so that it’s firm. That gives the horse something firm and doesn’t harbor fungus because we’re living in the Pacific Northwest.

I grew up in California, didn’t have rain and mud fever. All these other different kinds of fungus. You see on horses up here. But up here, you’ve got to be very careful that they have a blanket on; they’re going to be out in the rain, so that they don’t get damp and get a fungus on their back called ring sore. You can’t even then put a saddle on if they get too sore. You got to stay on top of those things. So, anyway, we have staff living on the property. We have options of in-and-out stalls. Ones that you lead horses out to paddocks and back in again, and then we have a couple of what are called loafing sheds, which means it’s a shelter. We have two Icelandics that love to be outside in the snow, rain. They love to be outside. They have a shelter where they can get out of the weather, but they’ll be standing outside most of the time. We do have a stall for them if the weather is really bad or the water starts freezing. We can bring them inside if we need to do that. But they love being out, they’re shaggy little guys and they love being outside.

On our property, we have the main indoor arena. We have dressage letters up. We have some jumps. We have show-quality jumps. We don’t set up often because they’re heavy to lift in-and-out. We have other jumps that are easily put in-and-out for lessons and for people to practice on, but we have a multi-disciplined barn. In other words, we have people who like Western and English. In Western, you might have reiners. You might have pleasure. You might have trail horses. In English, you might have dressage, hunter, jumper, and just simply pleasure trail horses. We tend to have more older riders with a few younger people who this is the first horse that they’ve brought in here. People, of course, are somewhat price conscious because it’s really expensive owning a horse. It’s getting more expensive because we’ve seen costs skyrocket. We have voluntarily just increased the rates and wages for our workers. We do the same thing in a per diem: this is how many horses you have, this is how much you get per horse to clean and feed them for the day.

Now, if you have 31 horses, that’s too many stalls to do for one person, which it really is, then we say you get a secondary worker. Then they get paid for the stalls they do; and you get paid the primary wage. So, it all works out. Our staff have three primary stock barn staff people. They make up their own schedule. They talk together. They work it out. Some are at school. Some have kids. So, they work together and make up a schedule that works for them. They cover for each other. They make sure everyone’s okay, and then we have another fellow, Hank, who does maintenance. Like you, he can jump into the stalls. He can do stall work. He can do buckets. He can bring the hay down for them. He does maintenance. So, he’s there if anyone’s sick, if anyone needs a hand, and if something happens like a pipe breaks or anything happens; they call him. So, they have that as well as my husband and I who live on the property as well.

Jacobsen: Is Steve available right now as well by the way?

Cindy: Yes, Steve’s just upstairs. He’s not a chatty person. If you had specific questions for him, he’d be happy to answer them. He, like I said, does a lot of the maintenance. We mix our own footing for the arena. We mix footing for our paddocks. We use crusher for it and for all the roads. We also have three and a half kilometers of trails, which he put in with his own GPS lining up through the woods and clearing out trails, putting culverts in and then putting landscape cloth and then crusher on top. So, a nice trail that you would see at Alder Grove Park or Camel Valley Park. We have some half kilometers of trails here on the property. So, as you saw on the web page, we have a round pen, a main indoor arena, a second indoor arena, which is like the lunging arena that we have. It’s a 72 x72, so it’s a nice 20-meter circle with a coverall. Then we have three and a half kilometers of all-weather trails, so it’s not muddy. They’re a good footing. Trees fall down, branches fall, things happen with these storms we’ve had recently. We go out and clear them off. Then we have a half-mile sand racetrack.

Now, the racetrack is not what you would see for training race horses; the inside rails are out. So, it’s basically a recreational track. We still harrow it. We keep it maintained. You can go out there. You can just walk around the track, trot, or do a little gallop. Sometimes, I’ll take students out. We’ll do a slow canter contest and then the fastest walk contest. We’re trying to train our horses to have good gaits for us to be out hacking on trails and such, and have them in control. We do our hay storage, like this year there was a real crisis for hay because of the fires, the drought, Covid, and then, of course, the flooding came along. So, hay is difficult. We bought a B-train load, which is a truck and a big trailer following it. A B-train load in the Fall, and then we put a deposit on another B-train load from the same hay supplier up North because it’s good quality professionally grown hay.

Steve with his background in animal physiology and nutrition will be happy to advise boarders on good nutrition for their horse, but, as you probably have found, everybody’s an expert. Quite frankly, it’s interesting. Even when he went to UBC, lots of feed studies on pigs, sheep, goats, chickens, cows, but not many good feed studies on horses. So, you still see kind of a backyard approach, “Oh, I’m going to get the beet pulp,” or, “They’ll get their weight up.” The beet plants, just saw this cheap pulp stuff and get rid of it by giving it to horse people saying, “Here’s some empty calories for your horse.” It’s great for hydrating your horse because you soak this pulp and some people do that to try to put weight on the horse, but I would question their more scientific knowledge of the digestive system of the horse.

We can advise borders. But if they want this, that, or the other thing, we accommodate them because that’s not livestock to them. That’s not even a pet. That horse is their child. You’ve seen that. Have you not? These women and guys, often, their kids are grown up and gone. These horses are their family. They’re their children, very important to them. So, horse boarding is a very unique business. They really think you’re taking care of people’s horse; we’re taking care of people by taking care of their horses.

Jacobsen: Talking to clientele while working, certainly, individuals who own one or more horses feel as if the horse is a part of their own family. Also, a common sentiment I find among those in the equestrian industry with only a few months out of my belt granted, is the sense of a lifestyle. So, you either dive into the deep end first; or it’s a foot in the door phenomenon. Where, once you start getting into it, more or less, you don’t leave. Unless, you’re forced to leave due to finances or some other catastrophic circumstance. People love it. It is their lifestyle.

Cindy: I have adults coming to me for lessons who have always wanted to ride. Now, they’re close to retirement. They now have the time. They have the money. Some of them don’t have the health anymore. So, we make sure they’re on a horse that suits their limitations. You’ll see this all the time. People come to me. They might take some lessons. Hopefully, they do take a good number of lessons and really learn horsemanship, ground manners, training techniques, and then get a horse. When they get that horse, they get because the worst thing is to be over horse; to get a horse that’s a little too much, a little bit too athletic, too high energy, too high maintenance, not as well trained and needs more training. If you don’t get someone with that knowledge, then you get a horse that becomes somewhat dangerous for that rider. Unfortunately, that horse then doesn’t always get a good chance with the next owner either. They get kind of labeled. They’ve developed some bad habits. I always say a horse is kind of like a dog. Get a dog and train that dog, an ill-trained dog, an insecure dog, or an aggressive dog is not a happy dog. Indeed, it could be a danger to a person, then you might have to put down the dog because an incident happens. I’ve seen that in the horse world as well with horses that are great animals, but have not had the best riding and training at some point in their life. It is human made problems in the horses that the good trainers have to go in and try to fix.

Footnotes

[1] Co-Owner, Twin Creeks Ranch.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 17: Cindy Waslewsky on Operations at Twin Creeks Ranch (1)[Online]. August 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 17: Cindy Waslewsky on Operations at Twin Creeks Ranch (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 17: Cindy Waslewsky on Operations at Twin Creeks Ranch (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 17: Cindy Waslewsky on Operations at Twin Creeks Ranch (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 17: Cindy Waslewsky on Operations at Twin Creeks Ranch (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 17: Cindy Waslewsky on Operations at Twin Creeks Ranch (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 17: Cindy Waslewsky on Operations at Twin Creeks Ranch (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 17: Cindy Waslewsky on Operations at Twin Creeks Ranch (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 17: Cindy Waslewsky on Operations at Twin Creeks Ranch (1)[Internet]. (2022, August 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-08-22

The Greenhorn Chronicles 16: Wes Schild on Expense, Show Jumping’s Appeal, and the Industry (2)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,852

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Wes is a Professional Trainer & Coach for Riverlands Equestrian Centre. He completed an internship at Landgestuet Celle (Hanovarian State Stud) in Adelheidsdorf, Germany. He has worked as a professional rider for McLean Reitsport in Tonisvorst. He has worked in Wellington, Florida for Alexandra Duncan and trained with Juan Matute Sr. He discusses: economic barriers; the demographics per discipline; new rider; people will enter into the industry and then drop out; the industry now in Canada; quality and cleanliness and orderliness of facilities; geldings and mares get 15×15 stalls and stallions get 15×20 stalls; boarding and room for a horse; base costs for improved quality of life; training with various individuals within the industry; a session; tack up; and to Riverlands for a lesson.

Keywords: Canada, Dressage, Greenhorn Chronicles, Riverlands Equestrian Centre, Wes Schild.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 16: Wes Schild on Expense, Show Jumping’s Appeal, and the Industry (2)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

*Interview conducted December 30, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Are there economic barriers? Although, I don’t know if that’s necessarily true because the demographics note the incomes of people who ride horses generally are about middle class. They are ordinary people in general. But getting into the industry, getting a horse, getting equipment, paying for boarding for the first little bit, etc. is that a barrier at the outset for getting into the industry?

Wes Schild[1],[2]: I think it depends on when you’re probably getting into the industry; I think it might be a little bit tougher as a child or a young teen to get into it just because there is a greater expense. Then again if you were just to go and be on some other sports team, there’s a lot more to owning a horse. Then you have to have someone that can help care for it or you have to board it out. So, I think that also slows down, why people don’t do it.

Jacobsen: How do you find the demographics per discipline within the equine – dressage versus jumping versus hunting, etc.? What tends to attract the most participants in Canada?

Schild: I would probably say jumping definitely would be your number one.

Jacobsen: What might be the reason for that?

Schild: I think if you go from people that are getting into it at a younger age. Show jumping has more appeal to it. For someone that’s just standing back and watching it; you get the idea of what’s going on. You see that someone’s riding the horse. They get to gallop the course. They’re jumping fences. It looks fun. It’s exciting. Whereas if you are looking back from a distance, again, and watching a very basic dressage test happen, you might not understand exactly what’s happening. So, someone to see the jumping is definitely more interesting. So, I think that’s where people lean to first; they want to get into jumping first. And then, maybe, once they’re in riding for a while and have a better understanding of it, they start to look to dressage because they understand that actually dressage is the basics to all riding. They need a really good solid foundation in their flat work and in their dressage work to be an excellent jumper. And then, of course, you would find out that if you’re riding with someone reputable or your trainer. Those top riders are all working on good flat work and dressage to make these top jumping horses.

Jacobsen: How long does it take for a horse to become acquainted and comfortable with a new rider?

Schild: I always say to my clients here when I’ve helped them in the past look for a new riding horse and there’s a new partnership being started up; I always say about a year. It takes a while for you to learn the horse and how they think and how they act and how they react to different situations. It’s a partnership, so it’s about building trust with your new partner and that that takes time and patience and help from a coach or a trainer.

Jacobsen: Is there a period at which people will enter into the industry and then drop out? So, hypothetically, a young teenager, parents put them into some equestrian discipline. They have a horse. They train, take part in competitions or some casual events for five years, and then they drop it at 17. What is a common scenario one would expect in a decent hunk of the equestrian world in Canada?

Schild: I would say that’s right. I would say if you were to look at a lot of the young riders that, maybe, ride from the time they’re 10 to 18 or whatever; they do that while they’re in high school and have the time, the ability, and, probably, their parents support, hopefully, to be able to do the sport. I would say around that age is when you start to see people fizzle out of it. I think it’s mostly because they’re going off to start post-secondary education. Or they need to start working full-time. They just can’t afford to do both things. There’s not enough time to do both things. So, I would say that’s probably when most fizzle out of the sport, but I would also say I know quite a few who have stopped riding then, and then maybe go on to post-secondary education, and then start a family, or whatever, and then return to riding in their early 30s, and continue on.

Jacobsen: How many people are in the industry now in Canada?

Schild: That’s a good question. I don’t actually know the answer.

Jacobsen: Okay. How important are quality and cleanliness and orderliness of facilities for proper equine activities?

Schild: Well, I would say it’s very important. That’s actually one of the biggest things that I took away from being in Europe. Some of the facilities that you go to over there are almost like military. They expect very high standards of cleanliness and respect and order for horses and riders. And here at our facility, I do the same; I make sure that everything’s very clean and organized. Everything’s very proper because it makes for running the business and the horses and the clients and everything just such a way nicer atmosphere to come to work every day when everything has a place and is organized. People know where things are; and it makes the day just run that much smoother.

Jacobsen: Your stalls are noted as 15×15 and 15×20. 15×20 for the stallions. So, geldings and mares get 15×15 stalls and stallions get 15×20 stalls. Why do the stallions get slightly bigger stalls?

Schild: There’s really not a huge reason why here we made them a little bit bigger. It’s only because stallions sometimes tend to be inside a little bit longer than you would like a mare-stallion for turnout purposes anyways. Luckily at our facility, we have quite a few paddocks that are built correctly and tall enough and are safe enough to put stallions out in so that there is no risk of them hurting themselves or getting out and trying to get to another horse. But the person who designed our facility wanted to make those stallion stalls just a little bit bigger because, like I said, if you have times where the stallions might not be able to go outside, it’s nice for them to have a big stall inside that they can move around and they’re quite comfortable in.

Jacobsen: For boarding and room for a horse, so gelding, stallion, to mare, where most people have a small ranch to the upper echelons of standards of care in Canada or even Europe, what is the range of costs people want to be looking at here?

Schild: Definitely out in the West coast, now, you’re looking roughly most places now about 1,000 dollars a month for a stall, and then that can go up or down depending on the facility and what the facility offers and what’s included in your board. If you go down to – let’s say – Florida, for example, I know lots of facilities down there that you’re looking probably closer to like 1,800 a month to 2,000 a month. That’s, of course, done in US dollars, but I would say at most good facilities now you’re looking around a 1,000 dollars a month.

Jacobsen: What can be added onto those base costs for improved quality of life for the horse?

Schild: So, for example, at our facility, some of the add-ons, there would be different types of quality of hay that you can get. With your board, you have just local grass type hay that we grow here on the farm, but then some horses need more protein or more energy in their diet. So, we also can bring in straight alfalfa. We have timothy, so that would be an extra cost. We have an automatic horse walker, which is really good for horses that need rehabilitation. Or we use it as a strength and exercise program every morning. So, all my competition horses go on the walker before they go to their turnout fields, so that would be an extra cost monthly. Those would be some of the type of things some facilities have. Treadmills or water treadmills, again, that would be an extra charge that would add on. Also, we have a massage therapist and chiropractor that come monthly. So, if that’s something that you want done for your horse, that’s just an extra add-on to your monthly bill here, and then they get massaged. They get a chiropractor treatment done.

Jacobsen: How much is training with various individuals within the industry? So, they have the basic level of training to become a coach to training with someone who has been on the national Olympic team for a particular country?.

Schild: You mean for a lesson price wise?

Jacobsen: Certainly.

Schild: Again, it totally depends on who you’re training with; a lower-level coach, you’re, probably, looking for around 75 dollars for a session. Then upper level stuff, you’re probably looking somewhere around 200 dollars for a session.

Jacobsen: For a session, how long does that last?

Schild: Generally, 45 minutes to an hour.

Jacobsen: Okay. Does this include tack up?

Schild: No, if you are having a session, your session begins at, let’s say, three o’clock. You’d be expected to be tacked up and ready to ride for three o’clock, and then you would ride with your coach from 3:00 to 3:45.

Jacobsen: So, let’s say, someone comes to Riverlands for a lesson, what will be a standard pre-lesson lesson and post-lesson series of procedures for them?

Schild: Well, for most people that come for lessons here, they have their horse already here, so they’re in a program with me. They would come. They would have their lesson time. They would get their horse tacked up and ready to ride. They would go into the indoor or the outdoor riding arena and warm up for probably 5-10 minutes before I come into the arena, and then we normally would have probably a five-minute little chat about what they’re feeling, what they want to work on, if they have any questions or concerns, and then we go into more of a detailed warm-up where I have eyes on them and the horse. We work through the warmup. Then we go into more of what I call the work for the day or the competition riding. So, we figure out what we’re going to work on, and we put the horse through some type of lesson plan and then there’s always breaks in that, of course, to give the horse time to recover and recuperate. Then we would do the cool down session and we always end the lesson with thoughts on how the lesson went; the good, the bad, and what we need to work on and their takeaway, their homework, for whatever. The next couple days until I see them again.

Footnotes

[1] Professional Trainer & Coach, Riverland Equestrian Centre.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Image Credit: Wes Schild.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 16: Wes Schild on Expense, Show Jumping’s Appeal, and the Industry (2)[Online]. August 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 16: Wes Schild on Expense, Show Jumping’s Appeal, and the Industry (2). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 16: Wes Schild on Expense, Show Jumping’s Appeal, and the Industry (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 16: Wes Schild on Expense, Show Jumping’s Appeal, and the Industry (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 16: Wes Schild on Expense, Show Jumping’s Appeal, and the Industry (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 16: Wes Schild on Expense, Show Jumping’s Appeal, and the Industry (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 16: Wes Schild on Expense, Show Jumping’s Appeal, and the Industry (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 16: Wes Schild on Expense, Show Jumping’s Appeal, and the Industry (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 16: Wes Schild on Expense, Show Jumping’s Appeal, and the Industry (2)[Internet]. (2022, August 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-08-22

The Greenhorn Chronicles 15: Dana Cooke on High Performance Equestrianism (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,826

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Dana Cooke is the Director of Equestrian Activities at Kingfisher Park Equestrian. She was a member of the Canadian Bronze Medal team at the 2019 Pan American Games in Lima, Peru. She is an “A” level Pony Club graduate and an Equestrian Canada Level 1 Certified Coach. She discusses: earliest inklings; Canadian bronze medal team in Lima, Peru; the feeling in anticipation; selection criterion for the Canadian Olympic team; 5-star; eventing versus jumping; financial barriers; the prices going up; and profit.

Keywords: Canada, Dana Cooke, equestrianism, Greenhorn Chronicles, Kingfisher Park Equestrian, Lima, Olympics, Peru.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 15: Dana Cooke on High Performance Equestrianism (1)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

*Interview conducted January 7, 2022.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, so, I will begin at the beginning. So, you performed at very high levels in the equestrian world. You are at Kingfisher Park Equestrian now. So, there’s obviously a story before the start in Kingfisher Park Equestrian. So, what were some of the earliest inklings of being around, or riding, horses for you because the people start at different ages and their paces of development are also different?

Dana Cooke[1],[2]: My parents originally were from Vancouver. They moved out to a little town called Merritt, which is about three hours north of Vancouver. My mom was a schoolteacher and I think my father was working. I can’t remember who he was working for at the time when he first stepped out. They had bought like a little piece of, probably, a 20-acre piece of property outside of town and friends there decided to keep some horses there. People started a little pony club around the corner, so my brother started pony club. My parents just bought like two kinds of 500-dollar sale horses. They didn’t know really anything about horses. My brother started this pony club. I started watching him ride and stuff. I was like little; like those photos of me with a pacifier in my mouth sitting on a horse and one of my brothers boarding for lessons. Once I was old enough, I also joined the pony club. My mom met my stepfather. He is, actually, a cowboy and literally chases cows for a living. He has worked for several different ranches like those in Nicola Valley. He likes to break horses and stuff like that. So, I got into a little bit of rodeo because my stepdad. This is what he did. I did a little rodeo. I did a little pony club. Then probably by the time I was eight or nine, I started jumping and just then stuck with the more equestrian side of things; English style and Western. When I was in kindergarten, I think, or my early elementary school years, we had to write what we want to do when we grow up. I said I wanted to go to the Olympics. So, here I am.

Jacobsen: You were on the Canadian bronze medal team in Lima, Peru for the Pan American Games. You have your eyes on the 2024 Olympic Games in Paris, France.

Dana: Yes, absolutely.

Jacobsen: What is the feeling in anticipation of heading in that direction and being so close when you’ve been aiming for that for so many years?

Dana: Well, it’s exciting, but it’s also a little bit like disbelief because you work so hard for it. It’s a dream for so long. It’s still also three years away, so it feels like forever away. With the Pan Am, it’s the same. In the Pan Am, it’s a little bit interesting because the path that I took the Pan Am. I planned it out like three years prior: how to get her there and make sure she was qualified. I was like, “I’m going to get this horse there,” which I did. like I have a little bit of the same philosophy, same planning, but I’m, actually, hoping to have, maybe, two or three horses qualified as opposed to just having one. But yes, it’s a weird feeling; you get excited about it, but you also can’t really get hung up on just getting qualified for the team and just making the team because it can run your life, which is a great thing. Also, things go wrong. So, it’s also a bit disappointing when it goes wrong. So, you’ve got to have other goals and other dreams and plans going on simultaneously if that makes sense.

It’s exciting, but I try not to get too hung up on just making the team because it’s disappointing when you don’t make it. It’s really disappointing when we don’t make it. So, it is exciting, but there’s a lot of pressure that comes with it.

Jacobsen: What is the selection criterion for the Canadian Olympic team in any of the three major areas of equestrianism?

Dana: Honestly, they, usually, come out what our actual criteria is; usually, it’s the fall or winter prior, so usually the November-December of the year before we get a selection like they’ll get sent out to all the high-performance riders, what you need to do to qualify to be on the team. Then we have to declare to our National Federation, which is Equestrian Canada, to tell them that we want to be selected or we want to be included in the selection process. So, it’s just for the Olympics, which is run at a 4-star level, at least across countries 4-star level. Usually, you and your horse have to be qualified at the fourth CCI 4-star long level. Actually, being qualified at the CCI 5-star long level is the highest level of sport; it’s actually a level above the Olympics. To have the best shot at it, you would like to have a great result out of 5-star going into it. But I believe that in this past Olympics we had to have a qualification at the 4-star long level.

Jacobsen: What would count as a 5-star? What is the contextualization there for someone without the expertise in the field?

Dana: So, the 5-star is the highest level in in eventing. It would be… trying to think of one good equivalent would be in like a different sport… It’d be like doing a full ironman, like it is compared to doing just a triathlon. It’s the dressage. It’s more technical and the test is longer. The cross country, the jumps are bigger, of course. It’s also more technical than the levels below it. The course generally takes significantly longer, and then the show jumping again. It’s more technical. It’s a larger show jumping track than you know the levels below it.

Jacobsen: How did you get into eventing versus jumping?

Dana: Well, pony club is actually based in the eventing. That’s where they started with everything. When you’re in pony club, you can go down different avenues; you can go down just the dressage avenue, or you go down the show jumping avenue, or you could go down eventing one. Whichever avenue you choose, it used to be like an all-around type. It’s an organization, but it’s also a bit of an education as well. So, you could focus on the whole thing and eventing would be like an all-around type of thing. So, that’s where it started. Honestly, I love the cross country. Which if you ask any event clutter, they’ll all say the same thing that they’re in it for the cross country. We have to do all the other things, but we learned to enjoy the dressage, or at least get good enough at it. We learned to love the show jumping as well, but the cross country is really why we do it.

Jacobsen: For the sport, especially at the higher levels, I have come across some commentary of financial barriers to it. Is that a common thing, or is that more an urban myth?

Dana: No, it’s common. Horses are expensive. Everybody says, “Oh, you have horses.” There’s so much money in horses and the money is literally in the horse, like the care of it, the feeding, maintenance, the veterinary, the farrier, competing; it’s expensive. I tell people all the time the cheapest part about owning a horse is the purchase price. It doesn’t matter whether you get it for free or you spend 500,000 dollars on it; that’s the least amount of money you’re going to spend on that horse. And after that, it’s expensive. That’s why a lot of us, especially the upper-level riders, have reformed syndicates because most of us can’t afford to do it on our own. I’m lucky enough that I have the owners of Kingfisher to support me, but they could only support me so much. So, trying to bring other people into the sport and to want to be a part of it, there’s a lot of people that want to be a part of your team and your sport and your journey, but they also can’t afford to own the whole horse, so they have the option to own a share of the horse and pay for a share of the expenses – which makes it actually a lot more affordable to them and to us as riders. So, it is expensive.

Jacobsen: Are the prices going up?

Dana: Yes. The horse purchase prices, some of them. Yes, it’s going up. I wouldn’t think that it’s changed in the last two years. It doesn’t change that much, but absolutely the care of them and competition costs and travel costs, absolutely. That has definitely gone up.

Jacobsen: For the industry to become profitable for an individual, or for a syndicate, or for a business, or for farmers, stables, etc., how do North Americans make the bulk of their income to sustain themselves versus Western Europeans?

Dana: Well, most have teaching businesses. We teach a lot of lessons. Europe, there are a lot more equestrians for disciplines, all of them. There, it’s definitely part of their culture; whereas, that’s not here in the US, so it’s a lot easier to get owners in Europe, but it actually is a lot more competitive. Because if you’re not doing a good job with that horse, they’ll take the horse and give it to somebody else. So, you have to stay quite competitive with those horses. So, here, you’ll find a lot of people start out getting the thoroughbreds, which are fine. You can find some really good thoroughbreds, but majority of them are not as competitive in the dressage. They’ll, maybe, have a little bit of a flatter jumping style. So, they might not have the best show jumping records. They generally are great cross-country horses, but not always the most competitive in the in the other two phases. But they’re more affordable to buy. So, you definitely see a lot of people starting out with that.

In Europe, they do have teaching and riding businesses like they do here, but I think probably a little bit easier to build up a little more clientele because it’s part of the culture. I haven’t spent that that much time actually living in Europe; not that I’ve lived in Europe, but I haven’t been there long enough to actually really see the difference. But my coach is Australian. He lived in England for a long time. He had a teaching business, but it was more of a riding business. He had competition horses, so it’s just a different style. He would have 12 horses going at any given time. So, you don’t see that as much here in the US or in North America in general.

Footnotes

[1] Director of Equestrian Activities, Kingfisher Park Equestrian.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cooke-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Image Credit: Dana Cooke.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 15: Dana Cooke on High Performance Equestrianism (1)[Online]. August 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cooke-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 15: Dana Cooke on High Performance Equestrianism (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cooke-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 15: Dana Cooke on High Performance Equestrianism (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cooke-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 15: Dana Cooke on High Performance Equestrianism (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cooke-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 15: Dana Cooke on High Performance Equestrianism (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cooke-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 15: Dana Cooke on High Performance Equestrianism (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cooke-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 15: Dana Cooke on High Performance Equestrianism (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cooke-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 15: Dana Cooke on High Performance Equestrianism (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cooke-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 15: Dana Cooke on High Performance Equestrianism (1)[Internet]. (2022, August 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cooke-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-08-21

Prof. Vaknin on Gut Feelings and Intuition

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/08/09

Prof. Shmuel “Sam” Vaknin (YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Amazon, LinkedIn, Google Scholar) is the author of Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited (Amazon) and After the Rain: How the West Lost the East (Amazon) as well as many other books and ebooks about topics in psychology, relationships, philosophy, economics, international affairs, and award-winning short fiction. He was Senior Business Correspondent for United Press International (February, 2001 — April, 2003), CEO of Narcissus Publications (April, 1997 — April 2013), Editor-in-Chief of Global Politician (January, 2011 -), a columnist for PopMatters, eBookWeb, Bellaonline, and Central Europe Review, an editor for The Open Directory and Suite101 (Categories: Mental Health and Central East Europe), and a contributor to Middle East Times, a contributing writer to The American Chronicle Media Group, Columnist and Analyst for Nova Makedonija, Fokus, and Kapital, Founding Analyst of The Analyst Network, former president of the Israeli chapter of the Unification Church’s Professors for World Peace Academy, and served in the Israeli Defense Forces (1979–1982). He has been awarded Israel’s Council of Culture and Art Prize for Maiden Prose (1997), The Rotary Club Award for Social Studies (1976), and the Bilateral Relations Studies Award of the American Embassy in Israel (1978), among other awards. He is Visiting Professor of Psychology, Southern Federal University, Rostov-on-Don, Russia (September, 2017 to present), Professor of Finance and Psychology in SIAS-CIAPS (Centre for International Advanced and Professional Studies) (April, 2012 to present), a Senior Correspondent for New York Daily Sun (January, 2015 — Present), and Columnist for Allied Newspapers Group (January, 2015 — Present). He lives in Skopje, North Macedonia with his wife, Lidija Rangelovska. Here we talk about gut feelings and intuition.

*Previous interviews listed chronologically after interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What differentiates intuitions from gut feelings if at all?

Prof. Shmuel “Sam” Vaknin: Gut feeling is immediate and nebulous. Intuition takes longer to form and feels more precise, incisive, and certain.

Jacobsen: How much of knowledge is filtered, processed, and prefabricated non-consciously and then presented to a conscious arena/awareness for decision-making?

Vaknin: There are three types of intuition.

Eidetic Intuitions

Intuition is supposed to be a form of direct access. Yet, direct access to what? Does it access directly “intuitions” (abstract objects, akin to numbers or properties — see “Bestowed Existence”)? Are intuitions the objects of the mental act of Intuition? Perhaps intuition is the mind’s way of interacting directly with Platonic ideals or Phenomenological “essences”? By “directly” I mean without the intellectual mediation of a manipulated symbol system, and without the benefits of inference, observation, experience, or reason.

Kant thought that both (Euclidean) space and time are intuited. In other words, he thought that the senses interact with our (transcendental) intuitions to produce synthetic a-priori knowledge. The raw data obtained by our senses -our sensa or sensory experience — presuppose intuition. One could argue that intuition is independent of our senses. Thus, these intuitions (call them “eidetic intuitions”) would not be the result of sensory data, or of calculation, or of the processing and manipulation of same. Kant’s “Erscheiung” (Sic!) — the “phenomenon”, or “appearance” of an object to the senses — is actually a kind of sense-intuition later processed by the categories of substance and cause. As opposed to the phenomenon, the “nuomenon” (thing in itself) is not subject to these categories.

Descartes’ “I (think therefore I) am” is an immediate and indubitable innate intuition from which his metaphysical system is derived. Descartes’ work in this respect is reminiscent of Gnosticism in which the intuition of the mystery of the self leads to revelation.

Bergson described a kind of instinctual empathic intuition which penetrates objects and persons, identifies with them and, in this way, derives knowledge about the absolutes — “duration” (the essence of all living things) and “élan vital” (the creative life force). He wrote: “(Intuition is an) instinct that has become disinterested, self-conscious, capable of reflecting upon its object and of enlarging it indefinitely.” Thus, to him, science (the use of symbols by our intelligence to describe reality) is the falsification of reality. Only art, based on intuition, unhindered by mediating thought, not warped by symbols — provides one with access to reality.

Spinoza’s and Bergson’s intuited knowledge of the world as an interconnected whole is also an “eidetic intuition”.

Spinoza thought that intuitive knowledge is superior to both empirical (sense) knowledge and scientific (reasoning) knowledge. It unites the mind with the Infinite Being and reveals to it an orderly, holistic, Universe.

Friedrich Schleiermacher and Rudolf Otto discussed the religious experience of the “numinous” (God, or the spiritual power) as a kind of intuitive, pre-lingual, and immediate feeling.

Croce distinguished “concept” (representation or classification) from “intuition” (expression of the individuality of an objet d’art). Aesthetic interest is intuitive. Art, according to Croce and Collingwood, should be mainly concerned with expression (i.e., with intuition) as an end unto itself, unconcerned with other ends (e.g., expressing certain states of mind).

Eidetic intuitions are also similar to “paramartha satya” (the “ultimate truth”) in the Madhyamika school of Buddhist thought. The ultimate truth cannot be expressed verbally and is beyond empirical (and illusory) phenomena. Eastern thought (e.g. Zen Buddhism) uses intuition (or experience) to study reality in a non-dualistic manner.

IB. Emergent Intuitions

A second type of intuition is the “emergent intuition”. Subjectively, the intuiting person has the impression of a “shortcut” or even a “short circuiting” of his usually linear thought processes often based on trial and error. This type of intuition feels “magical”, a quantum leap from premise to conclusion, the parsimonious selection of the useful and the workable from a myriad possibilities. Intuition, in other words, is rather like a dreamlike truncated thought process, the subjective equivalent of a wormhole in Cosmology. It is often preceded by periods of frustration, dead ends, failures, and blind alleys in one’s work.

Artists — especially performing artists (like musicians) — often describe their interpretation of an artwork (e.g., a musical piece) in terms of this type of intuition. Many mathematicians and physicists (following a kind of Pythagorean tradition) use emergent intuitions in solving general nonlinear equations (by guessing the approximants) or partial differential equations.

Henri Poincaret insisted (in a presentation to the Psychological Society of Paris, 1901) that even simple mathematical operations require an “intuition of mathematical order” without which no creativity in mathematics is possible. He described how some of his creative work occurred to him out of the blue and without any preparation, the result of emergent intuitions.

These intuitions had “the characteristics of brevity, suddenness and immediate certainty… Most striking at first is this appearance of sudden illumination, a manifest sign of long, unconscious prior work. The role of this unconscious work in mathematical invention appears to me incontestable, and traces of it would be found in other cases where it is less evident.”

Subjectively, emergent intuitions are indistinguishable from insights. Yet insight is more “cognitive” and structured and concerned with objective learning and knowledge. It is a novel reaction or solution, based on already acquired responses and skills, to new stimuli and challenges. Still, a strong emotional (e.g., aesthetic) correlate usually exists in both insight and emergent intuition.

Intuition and insight are strong elements in creativity, the human response to an ever changing environment. They are shock inducers and destabilizers. Their aim is to move the organism from one established equilibrium to the next and thus better prepare it to cope with new possibilities, challenges, and experiences. Both insight and intuition are in the realm of the unconscious, the simple, and the mentally disordered. Hence the great importance of obtaining insights and integrating them in psychoanalysis — an equilibrium altering therapy.

Kazimierz Dąbrowski’s theory of positive disintegration (TPD) posits that angst (existentialist tension and anxiety) not only induces growth, but is a necessary condition for it. Disintegrative processes are desirable. The absence of positive disintegration results in a fixated state of “primary (not secondary) integration”, without true individuality. One’s developmental potential, especially one’s overexcitabilities (abnormally strong reactions to stimuli) determine the potential for positive disintegration. Overexcitability (OE) is a heightened physiological experience of stimuli resulting from increased neuronal sensitivities.

Like Jordan Peterson, Dabrowski regards suffering — including the self-inflicted kind — as a key to both progress and healing. Personality shaping depends on socialization and on peer pressure (second factor). Strict unthinking and unwavering adherence creates robopaths (von Bertalanffy). Disintegartion requires countering social signalling and pressures which, I suggest, are mostly detected intuitively. Intuition, therefore, plays a key part in the regulation of these processes.

IC. Ideal Intuitions

The third type of intuition is the “ideal intuition”. These are thoughts and feelings that precede any intellectual analysis and underlie it. Empathy may be such an intuitive mode applied to the minds of other people, yielding an intersubjective agreement. Moral ideals and rules may be such intuitions (see “Morality — a State of Mind?”).

Mathematical and logical axioms and basic rules of inference (“necessary truths”) may also turn out to be intuitions. These moral, mathematical, and logical self-evident conventions do not relate to the world. They are elements of the languages we use to describe the world (or of the codes that regulate our conduct in it). It follows that these a-priori languages and codes are nothing but the set of our embedded ideal intuitions. This is why we can be pretty certain that the language of mathematics is inadequate and insufficient to capture reality or even the laws of nature.

As the Rationalists realized, ideal intuitions (a class of undeniable, self-evident truths and principles) can be accessed by our intellect. Rationalism is concerned with intuitions — though only with those intuitions available to reason and intellect. Sometimes, the boundary between intuition and deductive reasoning is blurred as they both yield the same results. Moreover, intuitions can be combined to yield metaphysical or philosophical systems. Descartes applied ideal intuitions (e.g., reason) to his eidetic intuitions to yield his metaphysics. Husserl, Twardowski, even Bolzano did the same in developing the philosophical school of Phenomenology.

The a-priori nature of intuitions of the first and the third kind led thinkers, such as Adolf Lasson, to associate it with Mysticism. He called it an “intellectual vision” which leads to the “essence of things”. Earlier philosophers and theologians labeled the methodical application of intuitions — the “science of the ultimates”. Of course, this misses the strong emotional content of mystical experiences.

Confucius talked about fulfilling and seeking one’s “human nature” (or “ren”) as “the Way”. This nature is not the result of learning or deliberation. It is innate. It is intuitive and, in turn, produces additional, clear intuitions (“yong”) as to right and wrong, productive and destructive, good and evil. The “operation of the natural law” requires that there be no rigid codex, but only constant change guided by the central and harmonious intuition of life.

Intuition is a topic that concerned many philosophers throughout the ages.

IIA. Locke

But are intuitions really a-priori — or do they develop in response to a relatively stable reality and in interaction with it? Would we have had intuitions in a chaotic, capricious, and utterly unpredictable and disordered universe? Do intuitions emerge to counter-balance surprises?

Locke thought that intuition is a learned and cumulative response to sensation. The assumption of innate ideas is unnecessary. The mind is like a blank sheet of paper, filled gradually by experience — by the sum total of observations of external objects and of internal “reflections” (i.e., operations of the mind). Ideas (i.e., what the mind perceives in itself or in immediate objects) are triggered by the qualities of objects.

But, despite himself, Locke was also reduced to ideal (innate) intuitions. According to Locke, a colour, for instance, can be either an idea in the mind (i.e., ideal intuition) — or the quality of an object that causes this idea in the mind (i.e., that evokes the ideal intuition). Moreover, his “primary qualities” (qualities shared by all objects) come close to being eidetic intuitions.

Locke himself admits that there is no resemblance or correlation between the idea in the mind and the (secondary) qualities that provoked it. Berkeley demolished Locke’s preposterous claim that there is such resemblance (or mapping) between PRIMARY qualities and the ideas that they provoke in the mind. It would seem therefore that Locke’s “ideas in the mind” are in the mind irrespective and independent of the qualities that produce them. In other words, they are a-priori. Locke resorts to abstraction in order to repudiate it.

Locke himself talks about “intuitive knowledge”. It is when the mind “perceives the agreement or disagreement of two ideas immediately by themselves, without the intervention of any other… the knowledge of our own being we have by intuition… the mind is presently filled with the clear light of it. It is on this intuition that depends all the certainty and evidence of all our knowledge… (Knowledge is the) perception of the connection of and agreement, or disagreement and repugnancy, of any of our ideas.”

Knowledge is intuitive intellectual perception. Even when demonstrated (and few things, mainly ideas, can be intuited and demonstrated — relations within the physical realm cannot be grasped intuitively), each step in the demonstration is observed intuitionally. Locke’s “sensitive knowledge” is also a form of intuition (known as “intuitive cognition” in the Middle Ages). It is the perceived certainty that there exist finite objects outside us. The knowledge of one’s existence is an intuition as well. But both these intuitions are judgmental and rely on probabilities.

IIB. Hume

Hume denied the existence of innate ideas. According to him, all ideas are based either on sense impressions or on simpler ideas. But even Hume accepted that there are propositions known by the pure intellect (as opposed to propositions dependent on sensory input). These deal with the relations between ideas and they are (logically) necessarily true. Even though reason is used in order to prove them — they are independently true all the same because they merely reveal the meaning or information implicit in the definitions of their own terms. These propositions teach us nothing about the nature of things because they are, at bottom, self referential (equivalent to Kant’s “analytic propositions”).

IIC. Kant

According to Kant, our senses acquaint us with the particulars of things and thus provide us with intuitions. The faculty of understanding provided us with useful taxonomies of particulars (“concepts”). Yet, concepts without intuitions were as empty and futile as intuitions without concepts. Perceptions (“phenomena”) are the composite of the sensations caused by the perceived objects and the mind’s reactions to such sensations (“form”). These reactions are the product of intuition.

IID. The Absolute Idealists

Schelling suggested a featureless, undifferentiated, union of opposites as the Absolute Ideal. Intellectual intuition entails such a union of opposites (subject and object) and, thus, is immersed and assimilated by the Absolute and becomes as featureless and undifferentiated as the Absolute is.

Objective Idealists claimed that we can know ultimate (spiritual) reality by intuition (or thought) independent of the senses (the mystical argument). The mediation of words and symbol systems only distorts the “signal” and inhibits the effective application of one’s intuition to the attainment of real, immutable, knowledge.

IIE. The Phenomenologists

The Phenomenological point of view is that every thing has an invariable and irreducible “essence” (“Eidos”, as distinguished from contingent information about the thing). We can grasp this essence only intuitively (“Eidetic Reduction”). This process — of transcending the concrete and reaching for the essential — is independent of facts, concrete objects, or mental constructs. But it is not free from methodology (“free variation”), from factual knowledge, or from ideal intuitions. The Phenomenologist is forced to make the knowledge of facts his point of departure. He then applies a certain methodology (he varies the nature and specifications of the studied object to reveal its essence) which relies entirely on ideal intuitions (such as the rules of logic).

Phenomenology, in other words, is an Idealistic form of Rationalism. It applies reason to discover Platonic (Idealism) essences. Like Rationalism, it is not empirical (it is not based on sense data). Actually, it is anti-empirical — it “brackets” the concrete and the factual in its attempt to delve beyond appearances and into essences. It calls for the application of intuition (Anschauung) to discover essential insights (Wesenseinsichten).

“Phenomenon” in Phenomenology is that which is known by consciousness and in it. Phenomenologists regarded intuition as a “pure”, direct, and primitive way of reducing clutter in reality. It is immediate and the basis of a higher level perception. A philosophical system built on intuition would, perforce, be non speculative. Hence, Phenomenology’s emphasis on the study of consciousness (and intuition) rather than on the study of (deceiving) reality. It is through “Wesensschau” (the intuition of essences) that one reaches the invariant nature of things (by applying free variation techniques).

Jacobsen: Is this a large part of intuition and/or gut feelings if inclusive of the filtration, processing, and prefabrication, of information from physiology — the body — too? I do not necessarily mean extensive amounts of time — could be fractions of a second — from input to presentation to consciousness (conscious awareness).

Vaknin: There is no question that input from the body is crucial to the formation of intuitions. The sensa (sensory inputs) are only one part of it. Autonomous reactions — such as heartbeat or perspiration — also figure into the equation. As we try to make sense of these corporeal data, we often come up with a heuristic or a narrative and most of the time we perceive the outcomes of these attempts as gut feelings or intuitions.

Jacobsen: When something feels wrong to an individual, how is this justifiable in considering the “something” as wrong in and of itself, or wrong in interpretation of an individual (more likely than not a fallible individual)? Are there moments when these feelings of wrongness about something are themselves inaccurate — following more generally from part of the last question?

Vaknin: Intuition is wrong as often as right. It is a shaky foundation for decision making. But it is a reliable signal that further research and investigation are called for.

Intuition should not be confused with either emotions or cognitions. They are an amalgam of both but they are a form of anxiety reaction, a variant of hypervigilance.

Jacobsen: When someone is trying to force-fit a relationship, a friendship, a marital situation, a professional arrangement, why is this a sign of inauthenticity, a fake?

Vaknin: Authenticity consists of being yourself even when you adhere to social strictures, norms, and mores or when you are trying to meet expectations and obligations. Feeling good about your choice to conform and act responsibly, reliably, and predictably (ego syntony).

If the sum total of an engagement with others causes you acute discomfort (ego dystony or dissonance) — this is a sign that you are betraying yourself somehow and, therefore, being inauthentic.

Watch “Being is Slavery, Nothingness is Freedom (Sartre’s “Being and Nothingness”, FIRST LECTURE)”

Watch “Relationships Always Fail, Inauthentic (Sartre’s “Being and Nothingness”, SECOND LECTURE)” https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xFvRcB1MOWM

Jacobsen: Grandiose claims are made all the time. Those claims too good to be true. Why are the “too good to be true” more likely to be false than true?

Vaknin: Splitting is an infantile psychological defense mechanism: the baby divides the world into all good and all bad. Of course, this is counterfactual: there is good and bad, right and wrong, helpful and obstructive in everything and in everyone.

So, “too good to be true” is an outcome of splitting coupled with magical thinking (the delusion that your willpower or thoughts affect reality even without any commensurate action). It is the offspring of a pathology of impaired reality testing.

Jacobsen: Why are we prone to believing things people say far more often than not, when people lie all the time in little and big ways?

Vaknin: This is known as the base rate fallacy. This cognitive distortion aims to resolve a cognitive dissonance: I know that people lie but I want to trust them all the time in order to feel safe.

It stems from the same pathological roots which involve grandiosity magical thinking: other people are all good and can be always trusted because I am all-powerful and immune to harm as well as all-knowing and so, I cannot be conned.

Trusting other people is the optimal strategy when you are the omniscient and omnipotent master of the Universe: investing in research and investigation would be wasteful.

Jacobsen: Should we make decisions immediately based on gut feelings and intuitions or over a reasonable amount of time making incremental, moderate changes/decisions based on increasing feedback from the processes colloquially called “gut feelings” and “intuitions”?

Vaknin: We should definitely listen to gut feelings and intuitions. They are telling us that something has gone awry with the way we perceive reality. This alert bears careful investigation and research.

But I would not act on my intuition or gut feeling unless and until I have delved deeper into what it is that is nagging at me.

Jacobsen: How can intuitions and gut feelings, ultimately, save us from our conscious delusions?

Vaknin: Intuitions and gut feelings are a poor guide in this sense because, as I said, as often as not, they turn out to have been wrong. Some intuitions are delusional!

Shoshanim: Thanks so much for the time and opportunity, Prof. Sam (Wise Gamgee).

Shoshanim’s Shoshanim: I have an intuition that you actually mean it this time!

Previous Electronic ‘Print’ Interviews (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Narcissism in General”

(News Intervention: January 28, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Cold Therapy (New Treatment Modality)”

(News Intervention: January 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Giftedness and IQ”

(News Intervention: February 2, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Religion”

(News Intervention: February 11, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Science and Reality”

(News Intervention: April 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Gender Wars”

(News Intervention: May 21, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Psychological Growth”

(News Intervention: May 24, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Structure, Function, Society, and Survival”

(News Intervention: May 26, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Chronon Field Theory and Time Asymmetry”

(News Intervention: May 28, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Genius and Insanity”

(News Intervention: June 1, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Freedom of Expression”

(News Intervention: June 10, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Misogyny and Misandry”

(News Intervention: June 20, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Victimization and Victim Identity Movements”

(News Intervention: July 27, 2022)

Previous Interviews Read by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“How to Become the REAL YOU (Interview, News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 26, 2022)

“Insider View on Narcissism: What Makes Narcissist Tick (News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 29, 2022)

“Curing Your Narcissist (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 31, 2022)

“Genius or Gifted? IQ and Beyond (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: February 3, 2022)

“Thrive: Your Future Path to Growth and Change (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: May 25, 2022)

Previous Interviews Interpreted by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“Your Narcissist: Madman or Genius? (Based on News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: June 3, 2022)

License

Copyright

2022-08-21

Prof. Vaknin on Victimization and Victim Identity Movements

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/07/27

*Previous interviews listed chronologically after interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What defines victimization? What defines a real victim in contrast to a fake victim?

Prof. Shmuel “Sam” Vaknin: Victimization involves the denial of the self-determination, identity, self-actualization, rights, and boundaries of a person without their express consent and collaboration.

Jacobsen: What makes victim identity movements, in fact, movements?

Vaknin: When victimhood becomes an organizing and explanatory (hermeneutic) principle, a determinant of the victim’s identity, and a socially binding force centred around grievances; prosocial or communal grandiosity; entitlement; conspiracism (paranoid or persecutory delusions); aggressive engagement or, on the other end of the spectrum, schizoid withdrawal; dysempathy; defiance (reactance); and contumaciousness (rejection of expertise and authority) — we have on our hands a victim identity movement.

No one is a victim. We may end up being victimized — but it doesn’t render us victims for life, it doesn’t brand us.

Jacobsen: Some studies in British Columbia, as you have noted, found some victimhood movements have been hijacked by narcissists and psychopaths. How does this muddy the waters of the real justice movements and make them ineffectual?

Vaknin: This was not the only study to have unearthed this very disconcerting undertow. We are beginning to wake up to the reality of what Gabay et al. call (2020) Tendency for Interpersonal Victimhood, TIV). “professional” or “career” victims with emphasized narcissistic and psychopathic tendencies find new homes (“pathological narcissistic spaces”) in these social justice upswells.

It makes it difficult to tell apart legitimate evidence-based grievances from entitlement-fueled manipulative and counterfactual claims.

One helpful way to distinguish the two is by noting that narcissists and psychopaths are destructive, not solutions-oriented. They thrive on negative affects such as anger and envy and are loth to invest in the routine and tedious chores attendant upon rectifying wrongs and building a better world.

More here: Victimhood Movements Hijacked by Narcissists and Psychopaths https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lBpxFxMAztA

Jacobsen: What have been extreme historical cases of this going awry, as this phenomenon has been historically cyclical, including one close to ‘home’ in 2004?

Vaknin: Nazism is a victimhood movement gone awful. And, to a lesser degree the white man’s grievance movement implausibly headed by Trump is a more recent example of such subversive dynamics.

Jacobsen: What is the typical arc of development of victim movements?

Vaknin: The sociologist Bradley Campbell suggested that we have transitioned from a culture centred around dignity to one based on victimhood.

Learn more by reading Habermas, Fukuyama, and Foucault. All justice-seeking movements start with grievances (injustices). They decry and seek to remedy and reverse individual transgressions (eg, the narcissistic abuse online movement) or societal and cultural biases (implicit and explicit), discrimination, and suppression.

The victims organize themselves around exclusionary identity politics and intersectionality and this orientation results in grandiosity and entitlement, in other words: in growing narcissism. Increasingly more aggressive, these movements often become psychopathic (defiant and contumacious) and demonize the Other.

Left-leaning victimhood movements centre around entitlement and reparations claims on the majority, on social institutions, and on history. Right-wing movements are conspiracy-minded and avoidant, but also more violent.

Narcissists and psychopaths gravitate to such movements in order to obtain narcissistic supply, money, power, and sex. They become the public faces and the media darlings on these hapless victims, having hijacked their legitimate complaints and demands.

Jacobsen: How much of the online content on narcissism and psychopathy is garbage (worthless or worse) now?

Vaknin: About 90%. It is not only worthless (wrong), it is dangerously misleading and entrenches a lifelong self-defeating and self-aggrandizing victimhood stance even as it demonizes and mythologizes abusers.

Jacobsen: What is the Tendency for Interpersonal Victimhood (TIV)?

Vaknin: A series of two studies by Israeli scholar Gabay and others, published in 2020. The authors provided this abstract:

“In the present research, we introduce a conceptualization of the Tendency for Interpersonal Victimhood (TIV), which we define as an enduring feeling that the self is a victim across different kinds of interpersonal relationships. Then, in a comprehensive set of eight studies, we develop a measure for this novel personality trait, TIV, and examine its correlates, as well as its affective, cognitive, and behavioral consequences. In Part 1 (Studies 1A-1C) we establish the construct of TIV, with its four dimensions; i.e., need for recognition, moral elitism, lack of empathy, and rumination, and then assess TIV’s internal consistency, stability over time, and its effect on the interpretation of ambiguous situations. In Part 2 (Studies 2A-2C) we examine TIV’s convergent and discriminant validities, using several personality dimensions, and the role of attachment styles as conceptual antecedents. In Part 3 (Studies 3–4) we explore the cognitive and behavioral consequences of TIV. Specifically, we examine the relationships between TIV, negative attribution and recall biases, and the desire for revenge (Study 3), and the effects of TIV on behavioral revenge (Study 4). The findings highlight the importance of understanding, conceptualizing, and empirically testing TIV, and suggest that victimhood is a stable and meaningful personality tendency.”

Read an analysis of these studies here: “The Tendency for Interpersonal Victimhood: The Personality Construct and its Consequences” (https://www.sciencedirect.com/science/article/abs/pii/S0191886920303238):

https://www.psypost.org/2020/12/researchers-identify-a-new-personality-construct-that-describes-the-tendency-to-see-oneself-as-a-victim-58753

Another interesting study:

“New research provides evidence that narcissism, psychopathy, and Machiavellianism — maladaptive personality traits known as the “Dark Triad” — are associated with overt displays of virtue and victimhood. The study suggests that people with dark personalities use these signals of “virtuous victimhood” to deceptively extract resources from others.”

(“Signaling Virtuous Victimhood as Indicators of Dark Triad Personalities“, was authored by Ekin Ok, Yi Qian, Brendan Strejcek, and Karl Aquino, Journal of Personality and Social Psychology, American Psychological Association, May 2020).

Jacobsen: What are the primary signifiers of narcissists and psychopaths who have or might hijack legitimate victimhood or justice movements looking for money, power, and sex?

Vaknin: Ironically, these usually are prosocial or communal narcissists. They often “control from the bottom” (emotionally blackmail by being self-sacrificial). So, the infestation of victimhood activism by narcissists and psychopaths is the tip of a submerged iceberg of ersatz altruism.

Some narcissists are ostentatiously generous: they dedicate time and other resources to social justice movements and to activism, they donate to charity, lavish gifts on their closest, abundantly provide for their nearest and dearest, and, in general, are open-handed and unstintingly benevolent. It is a form of virtue signalling. How can this be reconciled with the pronounced lack of empathy and with the pernicious self-preoccupation that is so typical of narcissists?

The act of giving enhances the narcissist’s sense of omnipotence, his fantastic grandiosity, and the contempt he holds for others. It is easy to feel superior to the supplicating recipients of one’s largesse. Narcissistic altruism is about exerting control and maintaining it by fostering dependence in the beneficiaries.

But narcissists give for other reasons as well.

The narcissist flaunts his charitable nature as a bait. He impresses others with his selflessness and kindness and thus lures them into his lair, entraps them, and manipulates and brainwashes them into subservient compliance and obsequious collaboration. People are attracted to the narcissist’s larger than life posture — only to discover his true personality traits when it is far too late. “Give a little to take a lot” — is the narcissist’s creed.

This does not prevent the narcissist from assuming the role of the exploited victim. Narcissists always complain that life and people are unfair to them and that they invest far more than their “share of the profit”. The narcissist feels that he is the sacrificial lamb, the scapegoat, and that his relationships are asymmetric and imbalanced. “She gets out of our marriage far more than I do” — is a common refrain. Or: “I do all the work around here — and they get all the perks and benefits!”

Some narcissists are compulsive givers.

To all appearances, the compulsive giver is an altruistic, empathic, and caring person. Actually, he or she is a people-pleaser and a codependent. The compulsive giver is trapped in a narrative of his own confabulation: how his nearest and dearest need him because they are poor, young, inexperienced, lacking in intelligence or good looks, and are otherwise inferior to him. Compulsive giving, therefore, involves pathological narcissism. In reality, it is the compulsive giver who coerces, cajoles, and tempts people around him to avail themselves of his services or money. He forces himself on the recipients of his ostentatious largesse and the beneficiaries of his generosity or magnanimity. He is unable to deny anyone their wishes or a requests, even when these are not explicit or expressed and are mere figments of his own neediness and grandiose imagination.

Some narcissists are ostentatiously generous — they donate to charity, lavish gifts on their closest, abundantly provide for their nearest and dearest, and, in general, are open-handed and unstintingly benevolent. How can this be reconciled with the pronounced lack of empathy and with the pernicious self-preoccupation that is so typical of narcissists? The act of giving enhances the narcissist’s sense of omnipotence, his fantastic grandiosity, and the contempt he holds for others. It is easy to feel superior to the supplicating recipients of one’s largesse. Narcissistic altruism is about exerting control and maintaining it by fostering dependence in the beneficiaries.

The People-pleasers

People-pleasers dread conflicts and wish to avoid them (they are conflict-averse) — hence their need to believe that they are universally liked. Always pleasant, well-mannered, and civil, the conflict-averse people-pleaser is also evasive and vague, hard to pin down, sometimes obsequious and, generally, a spineless “non-entity”. These qualities are self-defeating as they tend to antagonize people rather than please them.

But conflict-aversion is only one of several psychodynamic backgrounds for the behavior known as “people-pleasing”:

1. Some people-pleasers cater to the needs and demands of others as a form of penance, or self-sacrifice;

2. Many people-pleasers are codependents and strive to gratify their nearest and dearest in order to allay their own abandonment anxiety and the ensuing intense — and, at times, life-threatening — dysphoria (“if I am nice to him, he won’t break up with me”, “if I cater to her needs, she won’t leave me”);

3. A few people-pleasers are narcissistic: pleasing people enhances their sense of omnipotence (grandiosity). They seek to control and disempower their “charges” (“she so depends on and looks up to me”). Even their pity is a form of self-aggrandizement (“only I can make her life so much better, she needs me, without me her life would be hell.”). They are misanthropic altruists and compulsive givers.

All people-pleasers use these common coping strategies:

1. Dishonesty (to avoid conflicts and unpleasant situations);

2. Manipulation (to ensure desired outcomes, such as an intimate partner’s continued presence);

3. Fostering dependence: codependent people-pleasers leverage their ostentatious helplessness and manifest weaknesses to elicit the kind of behaviours and solicit the benefits that they angle for, while narcissistic people-pleasers aim to habituate their targets by bribing them with gifts, monopolizing their time, and isolating them socially;

4. Infantilization: displaying childish behaviours to gratify the emotional needs of over-protective, possessive, paranoid, narcissistic, and codependent individuals in the people-pleaser’s milieu;

5. Self-punishment, self-defeat, and self-sacrifice to signal self-annulment in the pursuit of people-pleasing.

Jacobsen: What, historically speaking, can be done to combat these Cluster B bad behaviours connected to some social movements?

Vaknin: As the grievances of these movements are addressed, they become a part of the establishment. This is when the hard work begins: the labors of writing laws, regulatory oversight, politics, negotiations and compromise, and the tedium of perseverance and routine.

These newfangled demands on the psychological and logistical resources of the movement and its adherents drive narcissists and psychopaths away: they are unaccustomed to and reject the hard slog and the often Sisyphean undertakings of public policy.

Shoshanim: Thanks so much for the time and opportunity, Prof. V.

Shoshanim’s Shoshanim: V for Victim or V for Vaknin? Just kidding. Thank you for suffering me yet again!

Previous Electronic ‘Print’ Interviews (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Narcissism in General”

(News Intervention: January 28, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Cold Therapy (New Treatment Modality)”

(News Intervention: January 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Giftedness and IQ”

(News Intervention: February 2, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Religion”

(News Intervention: February 11, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Science and Reality”

(News Intervention: April 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Gender Wars”

(News Intervention: May 21, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Psychological Growth”

(News Intervention: May 24, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Structure, Function, Society, and Survival”

(News Intervention: May 26, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Chronon Field Theory and Time Asymmetry”

(News Intervention: May 28, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Genius and Insanity”

(News Intervention: June 1, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Freedom of Expression”

(News Intervention: June 10, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Misogyny and Misandry”

(News Intervention: June 20, 2022)

Previous Interviews Read by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“How to Become the REAL YOU (Interview, News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 26, 2022)

“Insider View on Narcissism: What Makes Narcissist Tick (News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 29, 2022)

“Curing Your Narcissist (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 31, 2022)

“Genius or Gifted? IQ and Beyond (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: February 3, 2022)

“Thrive: Your Future Path to Growth and Change (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: May 25, 2022)

Previous Interviews Interpreted by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“Your Narcissist: Madman or Genius? (Based on News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: June 3, 2022)

License

Copyright

2022-08-21

Submissions Call: “In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/07/16

In an article last month, I examined the various publications available of some of the high-I.Q. societies. The result was a listing of longstanding high-I.Q. publications with others newer and published either irregularly or intermittently.

Regardless, the world of the highly intelligent has been an interesting journalistic research project for the last few years. The list of publications from the research were the following:

1. Mensa World Journal.

2. Thoth.

3. Telicom.

4. Vidya.

5. Leonardo.

6. Phenomenon.

7. Gift of Fire.

8. Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society.

9. Deus VULT.

10. USIA Research Journal.

11. GENIUS: Proceedings and Publications of the GENIUS High IQ Network/GENIUS: Journal of the GENIUS High IQ Network.

As I hold ownership, editorial, writer, and contributor status for a variety of publications, with capacity depending on the outlet, I like looking at publications’ content, style, font, contributors, and the like. It’s fun. I like words

Now, since the high-I.Q. communities have been so nice to me, I figure a kindness in return seems worth it. For In-Sight Publishing’s main journal, or the main one, basically, off the ground while the others sit in limbo, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, I am inviting participation from those self-same communities.

So, kindly, I invite members of the high-I.Q. communities to submit materials as they deem fit for review. The details for this section of submissions; this is a call for submissions to Section B of the journal:

Submission Guidelines (B)

Material

Contributor status access restricted to undergraduate students, graduate students, instructors, professors, and experts. Each submission considered on appropriateness of grammar and style, comprehensiveness, coherence, and originality of content.

Scope

Depending on the issue, the accepted submissions consists of articles, book reviews, commentaries, poetry, prose, and art.

Submission

It must not have publication or pending publication elsewhere. For exceptions, sufficient reason should be sent to the Editor-in-Chief along with the material. For written scholarly material, it must be in 12-point font, Times New Roman, 12-point font, single-spaced, 6-point after spacing, and with APA or MLA formatting. Length of material ranges from 500 to 7,500 words. Material should be sent to the following:
Scott.Douglas.Jacobsen@Gmail.com

I look forward to hearing from you. Some lenience permitted for republications from these communities depending on the material. When submitting, you will be corresponding with me, personally, so one-on-one to make your publication come out right.

P.S. Those publication were sifted through a listing of non-defunct high-I.Q. societies, 84 reduced to the active ones, from the World Intelligence Network website:

1. The Cogito Society

2. The International High IQ Society of Nathan Haselbauer

3. The Deep Brain Society of Anna Maria Santoro and Vincenzo D’Onofrio

4. Mensa Society of Lancelot Ware and Roland Berrill

5. The High Potentials Society of Max Tiefenbacher

6. Intertel of Ralph Haines

7. The Top One Percent Society (TOPS) of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

8. The Colloquy Society of Julia Cachia

9. The CIVIQ Society of Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis

10. The Glia Society of Paul Cooijmans

11. International Society for Philosophical Enquiries/International Society for Philosophical Inquiry (ISPE) of Christopher Harding

12. The Triple Nine Society (TNS) of Richard Canty, Dr. Ronald Hoeflin, Ronald Penner, Edgar Van Vleck, and Kevin Langdon

13. The AtlantIQ Society of Beatrice Rescazzi and Moreno Casalegno

14. The EpIQ Society of Chris Chsioufis

15. The IQuadrivium Society of Karyn S. Huntting

16. The Society for Intellectually Gifted Individuals with Disabilities of Nathaniel David Durham/Nate Durham with assistant Lyla Durham

17. The Encefálica Society of Luis Enrique Pérez Ostoa

18. The Greatest Minds Society of Roberto A. Rodriguez Cruz

19. The Mysterium Society of Greg A. Grove

20. The Sigma II Society of Hindemburg Melão

21. The Mind Society of Hernan R. Chang

22. The Infinity International Society (IIS) of Jeffrey Osgood

23. The Sigma III Society of Hindemburg Melão

24. The Milenija Society of Dr. Ivan Ivec and Mislav Predavec

3.13 Sigma to 4.8 Sigma

25. ISI-Society of Dr. Jonathan Wai

26. Epida Society of Fernando Barbosa Neto

27. SPIQR Society of Marco Ripà

28. Vertex Society of Stevan M. Damjanovic

29. Epimetheus Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

30. HELLIQ Society of Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis

31. Prometheus Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

32. Sigma IV Society of Hindemburg Melão

33. Tetra Society of Mislav Predavec

34. UltraNet Society/Ultranet of Dr. Gina Langan (formerly Gina LoSasso/Gina Losasso) and Christopher Langan/Chris Langan/Christopher Michael Langan

35. GenerIQ Society of Mislav Predavec

36. Mega Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

37. Omega Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

38. Pi Society of Dr. Nikos Lygeros/Dr. Nik Lygeros

5. Sigma to 7. Sigma

39. Mega International Society/Mega International of Dr. Gina Langan (formerly Gina LoSasso/Gina Losasso) and Christopher Langan/Chris Langan/Christopher Michael Langan

40. OLYMPIQ Society of Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis

41. PolymathIQ Society of Ron Altmann

42. Sigma V Society of Hindemburg Melão

43. Ultima Society of Dr. Ivan Ivec

44. GIGA Society of Paul Cooijmans

45. Sigma VI Society of Hindemburg Melão

46. Grail Society of Paul Cooijmans

47. Tera Society of R. Young

(I will be updating this list with more research now, and more updates coming out of the high-I.Q. communities.)

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2022-08-21

Free of Charge: or, Landmarks in Secular Humanism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/06/22

New frameworks for Secular Humanism will be required when pillars of the international community continue to enter a renewed era of besiegement. Not even necessarily directly as a consequent of the comprehension of the philosophical lifestance of Secular Humanism or of the associated philosophies related to them, where many philosophies crosslink with it, including non-theist religious.

It’s a natural outgrowth or organic consequent of neglect from monocultural views of social ideologies and religious frameworks as political tools. Think of a local context news item, you will find attempts at ‘regression’ inasmuch as history as a directionality outside of human affair vis-à-vis human affairs.

Any net vector of human history amounts to an in-practice sum over all human choices in a manner of speaking. Which seems, on first principles, the primary summation of secular humanist, eupraxsophist, philosophy, then every other empirical fact and scientific theory become the inventory of other principles taken into account, naturalistically.

The humanist manifestos and declarations for a century or so have proclaimed issues of their generations with a sense of urgency followed by a restatement — with future adaptations — of the philosophical premises, becoming less parochial, more inclusive, and more refined.

No comprehensive analysis of the humanist manifestos seems to exist, so a conversation or a series of educational conversations seemed apt with regards to Secular Humanism. A recent text with Dr. Herb Silverman was produced with this in mind entitled Free of Charge.

The attempts at aforementioned regression are not new. They represent a continuance of historical inertia with increased fervour based on changes in fundamental demographics, nationally and internationally.

The observation of legislative siege against international secular human rights and scientific frameworks based on the premises of singular transcendentalist moral frameworks comes an observation of functioning on the defensive — an accurate observation.

Individual religious hierarchs observe a retreat of the laity from faiths on most levels of devotion and continue a longstanding work of putting forth a counter-wave in legislation against the desires of the majority of the population in many cases. Nothing new under the Sun, or the Moon, here.

The only novelty is the degree to which anti-dogmatic processes have freed women and the historical underclasses while buttressing notions of equality for all under a common law and representative government.

The “counter-wave” merely reflects a state of fear, not panic, on behalf of hierarchs who, in prior moments, could rely on utter lifetime devotion — from womb to tomb — to a monocultural religious or political lens.

Future adaptations of Secular Humanism and philosophies in the same epistemic and ontic relational net will merely need to envelop these counter-waves with the long view in sight, as the scientific referents and universalist ethics seem to appeal to more of the global population than not. Otherwise, or if there wasn’t, there wouldn’t be such strident international revolt against repression.

Free of Charge was developed with this in mind.

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2022-08-21

Prof. Vaknin on Misogyny and Misandry

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/06/20

*Previous interviews listed chronologically after interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Misogyny and misandry, what defines them?

Prof. Shmuel “Sam” Vaknin: Misogyny and misandry are forms of inverted gender dysphoria, actually. It is hatred, resentment, and revulsion brought on by the opposite sex. It encompasses all aspects and dimensions of the hate figure and in this sense, it is akin to racism.

Jacobsen: Historically, how have misogyny and misandry manifested in partnerships, in individual social settings, and in cultures at large?

Vaknin: Misogyny has been the patriarchal organizing principles of all societies from the agricultural revolution to this very day. It permeated all institutions, from the family to the Church to the state.

Misogyny was mainly intended to restrict the freedoms of women in order to prevent them from procreating extradyadically and thus secure the intergenerational transfer of wealth to the male’s rightful offspring.

Misandry is the reaction of some waves of feminism in the past 150 years or so. It is visceral and bitter, but not nearly as organized and institutionalized as misogyny.

Recently both are on the increase.

Jacobsen: As you note in several productions, there are obvious cases of a ‘rollback’ of women’s rights in the United States through murmurings of repeals of Roe v Wade and in state legislatures, in Russia with the (re-)legalization — in a manner of speaking — of domestic abuse, in Afghanistan with women confined to the home, in Ethiopia with sexual violence (by Ethiopian and Eritrean forces), in Turkey via withdrawal from the Istanbul Convention, and in online hate groups comprised of resentful, bitter, anomic, hopeless, potentially mentally ill, batches of men in MGTOW (Men Going Their Own Way), Black Pillers, Red Pillers, Incels (Involuntary Celibates), generic male supremacists, PUAs (Pick Up Artists), MRM men (Men’s Rights Movement), TFLers (True Forced Loners), and so on. These men, young and old alike, seem composed of anomie, despair, and porcelain, transmogrified into contempt for the Other. Do these seem like a disunified variegated ‘wave’ of anti-women sentiments and acts by men online and offline around the world?

Vaknin: Some men are fighting back against what they perceive to be the ominous usurpation of rights and powers by women. They are also aghast at the way women have appropriated stereotypical male behaviors, such as promiscuity.

The counter-movement started off in disparate groups but now has coalesced into an agenda that is promoted by lawmakers all over the world. The backlash is fierce. Men are still the gatekeepers in most countries in the world. This doesn’t bode well for women. Legal rights and access to services such as healthcare and educations are being rolled back and freedoms are curtailed.

Women are bound to be radicalized by such counter-reform. They are likely to become way more militant and masculinized. They are shunning men in growing numbers and resorting to male substitutes even when it comes to procreation: donor sperm and IVF.

Jacobsen: What seems like the psychology of the men with the authority to impose these ‘rollbacks’ in legislation and socio-cultural life?

Vaknin: This is a state of panic, both moral and operational. Inter-gender morality was imposed by men in order to preserve the “purity” of women and their role as domestic comforters-in-chief. As power shifted from men to women, this ideal has been shattered.

Moreover, women emulate aggressive, ambitious men. In multiple studies, women described themselves in exclusively masculine terms. They have been taking away men’s jobs for well over a hundred years now. They are way more educated than men so men feel absolutely threatened, very much like a species going extinct.

Men who react adversely to the ascendance of women and the emergence of a unigender world via legislation and politics are anxious, sociosexually restricted, narcissistic (but not psychopathic), insecure, and, in some cases, with a conflicted sexual and gender identity.

Jacobsen: What seems like the psychology of the men in these international, disparate online groups, who even create their own lingo, patois?

Vaknin: These are rabid misogynists who have created an ideology around their deep-seated, irrational, and pathological hatred. They have primitive defenses, are highly narcissistic and even psychopathic, and tend to externalize aggression. They tend to hold grudges and grievances, ruminate and fixate, and be vengeful and hypervigilant.

Jacobsen: You agree with First Wave Feminism and Second Wave Feminism, and disagree with Third Wave Feminism and Fourth Wave Feminism. What defines them?

Vaknin: First and second wave feminisms (in plural: there are many schools) were focused on leveling the playing field and fighting abusive and exploitative practices such as prostitution and pornography.

Starting with the suffragettes, they focused on the franchise (the right to vote), equal wages, access (to healthcare, education, the workplace, daycare), revising the dress code (“rational dress”), the right to own and dispose of property, and converting marriage from indentured bondage to an intimate, hopefully lifelong equal partnership.

The third wave was a psychopathic outgrowth. While claiming to be inclusive and permissive, it was a defiant and reckless attempt to “empower” women by eliminating all boundaries, conventions, and mores of any kind in all fields of life.

What women have garnered from the confluence of the three waves is that they should make their careers the pivot of their lives, avoid meaningful, committed relationships with men, and pursue sex as a pastime with any man.

Ironically, the third wave played right into the hands of predatory men (“players”) who took advantage of the newfangled promiscuity while assiduously avoiding any hint of commitment or investment. Third wave feminists internalized the male gaze (“internalized oppression”) and pride themselves on being “sluts”.

The fourth wave of feminism is focused on real problems such as sexual harassment, rape, and body shaming as well as intersectionality (discrimination of women who belong to more than one minority). In many ways, it is an offshoot of second wave feminism.

Jacobsen: Even within these four waves of feminism, what seem like the most laudable portions and the most contemptible parts of each?

Vaknin: First, second, and fourth wave feminisms are legitimate movements which have improved and strengthened societies around the world by integrating women in the social and economic fabrics of their milieus.

The third wave was utterly destructive. It hijacked the feminist message and precipitated the gender wars which are threatening to undo the accomplishments of the first and second waves.

Moreover: corporate interested coopted the messaging of the third wave to encourage women to remain single and promiscuous in order to encourage their participation in the labor force and thus convert them into consumers.

Jacobsen: Since history cannot be rewritten in actuality, though can be erased and rewritten in records, what might Fifth Wave Feminism incorporate as lessons from the previous four to correct course from the clear antipathy between the sexes — maintaining the proper equalitarian victories and jettisoning the improper inegalitarian losses?

Vaknin: Feminism needs to fight the patriarchy and its discriminatory practices — not men. It needs to recognize that men and women are equal, but not identical. It needs to encourage women to adopt boundaried sexuality and the formation of intimate partnerships, cohabitation households, and families with men (or women, if they are so inclined). It needs to expose the way business and the third wave end up disempowering women like never before.

Jacobsen: How can science on sex and gender clarify the fact from the fiction, as the sea floor of these waves — so to speak? Something to set limits on conversation based on reality in contrast to discourses entirely in the realm of fantasy.

Vaknin: I dealt with this at length in the interview I gave you about gender wars https://www.newsintervention.com/prof-sam-vaknin-on-the-gender-wars/

Jacobsen: How might such a fifth wave grounded in science inform international human rights discourse, national legislation, sociocultural lives, families, and individual self-identification?

Vaknin: Women are not a minority. Numerically, they are a majority. Their situation is reminiscent of apartheid in South Africa and needs to be tackled with the same tools: nonviolent resistance; truth and reconciliation; a peaceful and consensual transfer of power; an integrated society with no discrimination or subterfuge; equal rights and obligations while recognizing the uniqueness of each constituency.

Shoshanim: Thanks much, Prof. Samuel.

Vaknin: You are very welcome. May we both live to see the day men and women love each other the way they should.

Previous Electronic ‘Print’ Interviews (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Narcissism in General”

(News Intervention: January 28, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Cold Therapy (New Treatment Modality)”

(News Intervention: January 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Giftedness and IQ”

(News Intervention: February 2, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Religion”

(News Intervention: February 11, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Science and Reality”

(News Intervention: April 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Gender Wars”

(News Intervention: May 21, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Psychological Growth”

(News Intervention: May 24, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Structure, Function, Society, and Survival”

(News Intervention: May 26, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Chronon Field Theory and Time Asymmetry”

(News Intervention: May 28, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Genius and Insanity”

(News Intervention: June 1, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Freedom of Expression”

(News Intervention: June 10, 2022)

Previous Interviews Read by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“How to Become the REAL YOU (Interview, News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 26, 2022)

“Insider View on Narcissism: What Makes Narcissist Tick (News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 29, 2022)

“Curing Your Narcissist (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 31, 2022)

“Genius or Gifted? IQ and Beyond (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: February 3, 2022)

“Thrive: Your Future Path to Growth and Change (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: May 25, 2022)

Previous Interviews Interpreted by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“Your Narcissist: Madman or Genius? (Based on News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: June 3, 2022)

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2022-08-21

Americans More Skeptical of the God Concept Than Ever

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/06/19

Belief in God in the United States, probably in the Western world generally, is at an all-time low. Between 1944 and 2011,the belief in God in the United States remained above 90%. In 2017, it dropped to 87%.

Now, with changes in the religious and theistic landscape of American society, we are watching the erosion of theistic belief on the order of millions of people per year. The number is now 81%.

Atheists, agnostics, and the like, have been and continue to be an increasing demographic in the United States. The most likely groups to witness this decline are Democrats at 72%, young adults at 68%, and liberals at 62%.

Interestingly, no change appears to have happened to married adults and conservatives. These reflect more dramatic changes in the attendance at religious services in the United States. Less than 50% of Americans are explicit members of a church, mosque, or synagogue, and 36% having confidence in organized religion.

Most American citizens have doubts about the existence of God, while 19% have no belief in God. These shifts appear driven mostly by the young.

With files from Gallup

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2022-08-21

International Introductory Review of High-I.Q. Publications

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/06/15

*Updated June 15, 2022.*

*If not included/missed, and if wanting inclusion, please send an email to Scott.Douglas.Jacobsen@Gmail.Com, then I can include the publication in the listing. I want everyone included in the international community here.*

High-I.Q. societies continue to give a modicum of fascination to me. Whenever I think the trail ends, other people come forward and present new information and material. In general, where one finds individuals with numerical, spatial, verbal, or reasoning talent, or all of the aforementioned, one tends to find individuals in professions demanding intellectual facility. When others want, typically, a digital community, a safe space for communication, correspondence, and the like; the high-I.Q. communities give such place for quiet felicity in interaction with the like-talented.

Publications, in this sense, provide a platform for the members to show talents, interests, thoughts, and productions. A short-form list of found publications will be listed at the end of the article. This resource will be built on the listing of non-defunct societies listed in” World Intelligence Network Addendum I — Non-Defunct Societies Membership” with some extensions. The purpose is to catalogue some high-I.Q. publications for individuals curious about the high-I.Q. communities and as a piece of personal curiosity. The prior non-defunct societies, as follows:

1. The Cogito Society

2. The International High IQ Society of Nathan Haselbauer

3. The Deep Brain Society of Anna Maria Santoro and Vincenzo D’Onofrio

4. Mensa Society of Lancelot Ware and Roland Berrill

5. The High Potentials Society of Max Tiefenbacher

6. Intertel of Ralph Haines

7. The Top One Percent Society (TOPS) of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

8. The Colloquy Society of Julia Cachia

9. The CIVIQ Society of Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis

10. The Glia Society of Paul Cooijmans

11. International Society for Philosophical Enquiries/International Society for Philosophical Inquiry (ISPE) of Christopher Harding

12. The Triple Nine Society (TNS) of Richard Canty, Dr. Ronald Hoeflin, Ronald Penner, Edgar Van Vleck, and Kevin Langdon

13. The AtlantIQ Society of Beatrice Rescazzi and Moreno Casalegno

14. The EpIQ Society of Chris Chsioufis

15. The IQuadrivium Society of Karyn S. Huntting

16. The Society for Intellectually Gifted Individuals with Disabilities of Nathaniel David Durham/Nate Durham with assistant Lyla Durham

17. The Encefálica Society of Luis Enrique Pérez Ostoa

18. The Greatest Minds Society of Roberto A. Rodriguez Cruz

19. The Mysterium Society of Greg A. Grove

20. The Sigma II Society of Hindemburg Melão

21. The Mind Society of Hernan R. Chang

22. The Infinity International Society (IIS) of Jeffrey Osgood

23. The Sigma III Society of Hindemburg Melão

24. The Milenija Society of Dr. Ivan Ivec and Mislav Predavec

3.13 Sigma to 4.8 Sigma

25. ISI-Society of Dr. Jonathan Wai

26. Epida Society of Fernando Barbosa Neto

27. SPIQR Society of Marco Ripà

28. Vertex Society of Stevan M. Damjanovic

29. Epimetheus Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

30. HELLIQ Society of Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis

31. Prometheus Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

32. Sigma IV Society of Hindemburg Melão

33. Tetra Society of Mislav Predavec

34. UltraNet Society/Ultranet of Dr. Gina Langan (formerly Gina LoSasso/Gina Losasso) and Christopher Langan/Chris Langan/Christopher Michael Langan

35. GenerIQ Society of Mislav Predavec

36. Mega Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

37. Omega Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

38. Pi Society of Dr. Nikos Lygeros/Dr. Nik Lygeros

5. Sigma to 7. Sigma

39. Mega International Society/Mega International of Dr. Gina Langan (formerly Gina LoSasso/Gina Losasso) and Christopher Langan/Chris Langan/Christopher Michael Langan

40. OLYMPIQ Society of Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis

41. PolymathIQ Society of Ron Altmann

42. Sigma V Society of Hindemburg Melão

43. Ultima Society of Dr. Ivan Ivec

44. GIGA Society of Paul Cooijmans

45. Sigma VI Society of Hindemburg Melão

46. Grail Society of Paul Cooijmans

47. Tera Society of R. Young

The overlay following this listing will incorporate descriptive commentary for some societies based on the listing followed by newer resources outside of the previous listing:

1. The Cogito Society

No found publication for The Cogito Society.

2. The International High IQ Society of Nathan Haselbauer

Duly note, Nathan Haselbauer is deceased. He committed suicide. The International High IQ Society appears functional with some provisions for members regarding correspondence and discussion, while no formally listed publication, as follows:

When you join IHIQS, you get a membership certificate and you can become a part of our online community to participate in forum discussions, learn from top experts, connect with intelligent people and advance yourself.

We have a private online forum at our website and are available on Facebook as well as LinkedIn and Instagram. We currently have no offline events, but other members may well live close by. As long as you “kick the ball and not the player”, you will find yourself in an open-minded environment where you are allowed to kick the ball quite hard.

You do not have access to a representative publication. You have access to a private online forum, Meta/Facebook discussions, LinkedIn, and Instagram.

3. The Deep Brain Society of Anna Maria Santoro and Vincenzo D’Onofrio

A publication, Profondamente (DeepBrain Society Magazine/DeepBrain Magazine), is listed with the Executive Editor, Anna Maria Santoro. Contributors are not remunerated for submissions. This may be a pervasive fact with high-I.Q. society publications. Two issues have been published: 2010 and June, 2012.

4. Mensa Society of Lancelot Ware and Roland Berrill

Mensa World Journal is the flagship international publication of ‘Mensa Society’ or Mensa International. It replaced the International Journal in 2013.

5. The High Potentials Society of Max Tiefenbacher

There is a listed point or not to a Society Magazine. However, finding a hyperlink to such a point of reference is not present, perhaps, this remains only accessible to members. I hold no formal memberships in any high-I.Q. society, as I take this as an independent journalistic endeavour. Thus, a publication or magazine may exist, though the access may be restricted to members and not the general public.

6. Intertel of Ralph Haines

Intertel has a flagship publication, Integra. Its members are encouraged to contribute to it. They state, “Because members of Intertel are so geographically widespread, communication is very important. All members are encouraged to contribute to Integra, the Journal of Intertel, published ten times a year. In addition, regional newsletters are published periodically, and many members correspond via e-mail or a growing variety of online forums. There is an annual gathering (this year in Prague), and the various regions schedule social activities.”

7. The Top One Percent Society (TOPS) of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

Termite is the official publication of TOPS. It appears as if limited to members.

8. The Colloquy Society of Julia Cachia

A flagship publication does not appear available. However, a series of articles are open for reading to an interested community.

9. The CIVIQ Society of Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis

No individual publication appears to exist for The CIVIQ Society. However, its umbrella World Intelligence Network’s flagship publication is Phenomenon.

10. The Glia Society of Paul Cooijmans

Thoth is its flagship publication. The Glia Society website states, “The journal “Thoth” is available only to members and appears in digital format. It guarantees absolute freedom of speech and has no editorial changes or censorship of any kind. Thoth is filled with members’ submissions, and occasionally contains material by others.

Thoth has a variable number of pages of A5 size. Images are frequently included.

Thoth is named after the Egyptian moon god, who weighed the hearts of the deceased to determine if they would be admitted to the hereafter or, if the examination was failed, torn apart by a monster. Thoth is also the name used by the future Grail Society member.”

11. International Society for Philosophical Enquiries/International Society for Philosophical Inquiry (ISPE) of Christopher Harding

Telicom is its flagship publication. It has a robust presentation online as a provision for its membership. This appears to be — out of the 11 examined so far — one of the more publicly well-presented publications.

12. The Triple Nine Society (TNS) of Richard Canty, Dr. Ronald Hoeflin, Ronald Penner, Edgar Van Vleck, and Kevin Langdon

Vidya is the official publication of the Triple Nine Society. It states, “Vidya content is exclusively provided by members. There are personal stories and experiences, semi-scientific articles, puzzles, pictures, poems, news about the society — and everything in-between. Below are some articles that will hopefully give you an impression of the diversity you can expect in TNS. And they are good reads, too.”

13. The AtlantIQ Society of Beatrice Rescazzi and Moreno Casalegno

Leonardo is the official publication of the AtlantIQ Society. It has 48 issues to date. It amounts to a multi-society publication hosted on the new AtlantIQ Society website. They state, “These are the issues of the new Leonardo — the magazine of the AtlantIQ Society, STHIQ Society and the Creative Genius Society — and the previous AtlantIQ Society Members’ Magazine issues. They are freely readable and downloadable by everyone.
This is a multimedia magazine: you can click on photos and links to know more about the article you are reading.
You can easily read the magazine after clicking the image links and going full screen (click the square button in the lower right side of the preview window).”

14. The EpIQ Society of Chris Chsioufis

A magazine connected to EpIQ Society via the IQ Nexus is IQ Nexus Journal.

15. The IQuadrivium Society of Karyn S. Huntting

No discernible publication exists for The Iquadrivium Society.

16. The Society for Intellectually Gifted Individuals with Disabilities of Nathaniel David Durham/Nate Durham with assistant Lyla Durham

No publication appears to exist for The Society for Intellectually Gifted Individuals with Disabilities.

17. The Encefálica Society of Luis Enrique Pérez Ostoa

No discoverable publications for The Encefálica Society.

18. The Greatest Minds Society of Roberto A. Rodriguez Cruz

No found publication for The Greatest Minds Society.

19. The Mysterium Society of Greg A. Grove

No apparent publication for The Mysterium Society.

20. The Sigma II Society of Hindemburg Melão

No apparent flagship publication for this society, though under the rubric of the Sigma Society. Sigma Society website has a database of articles relevant to its international community of about 200+ members.

21. The Mind Society of Hernan R. Chang

No formal publication exists for Mind Society. However, the society exists a means by which members can communicate with other members without affiliation with other societies.

22. The Infinity International Society (IIS) of Jeffrey Osgood

Its publication exists under the rubric of IQ Nexus, where IQ Nexus Journal amounts to the journal for The Infinity International Society and others.

23. The Sigma III Society of Hindemburg Melão

24. The Milenija Society of Dr. Ivan Ivec and Mislav Predavec

No apparent publication at this time. Nonetheless, Ivan Ivec retired from test construction. Mislav Predavec may be different.

3.13 Sigma to 4.8 Sigma

25. ISI-Society of Dr. Jonathan Wai

The Isi-s Discussion Group, WIN Board: WIN, and IQ Nexus forum, exist for communication of members. No formal publication found at this time for ISI-Society.

26. Epida Society of Fernando Barbosa Neto

No publication at this time.

27. SPIQR Society of Marco Ripà

No flagship publication at this time. In fact, membership considerations are suspended at the moment.

28. Vertex Society of Stevan M. Damjanovic

Zero publications for Vertex Society.

29. Epimetheus Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

A section of the website states “Termite.” This may be a reference to the aforementioned publication Termite for TOPS.

30. HELLIQ Society of Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis

No individual publication appears to exist for The HELLIQ Society. However, its umbrella World Intelligence Network’s flagship publication is Phenomenon.

31. Prometheus Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

An interesting and distinct setup for The Prometheus Society. They have a primary forum discussion group entitled The Fire List. It is open to Prometheus Society members and subscribers. Its flagship publication is Gift of Fire published 0 to 10 times per year available to members and subscribers.

32. Sigma IV Society of Hindemburg Melão

33. Tetra Society of Mislav Predavec

No discernible publication for Tetra Society.

34. UltraNet Society/Ultranet of Dr. Gina Langan (formerly Gina LoSasso/Gina Losasso) and Christopher Langan/Chris Langan/Christopher Michael Langan

An online Meta/Facebook group discussion exists with administrators and moderators as Christopher Michael Langan/Chris Langan/Christopher Langan (brother of Mark Langan, Jeffrey Langan, and Colter Langan, and son of the late Mary Chappelle Langan-Hansen), Dr. Gina Langan, Torbjørn Brenna, Freidank Eike, Erin J. Morgart, and Laney Ellis. No formal publication appears to exist.

35. GenerIQ Society of Mislav Predavec

No publication discernible for GenerIQ Society.

36. Mega Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society or Noesis is the flagship publication of the Mega Society.

37. Omega Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin

A section of the website states “Termite.” This may be a reference to the aforementioned publication Termite for TOPS and for the Epimetheus Society.

38. Pi Society of Dr. Nikos Lygeros/Dr. Nik Lygeros

Its journal appears to be Perfection.

5. Sigma to 7. Sigma

39. Mega International Society/Mega International of Dr. Gina Langan (formerly Gina LoSasso/Gina Losasso) and Christopher Langan/Chris Langan/Christopher Michael Langan

Noesis-E and Ubiquity were publications of the larger non-profit organization The Mega Foundation of the same individuals.

40. OLYMPIQ Society of Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis

No individual publication appears to exist for The OLYMPIQ Society. However, its umbrella World Intelligence Network’s flagship publication is Phenomenon.

41. PolymathIQ Society of Ron Altmann

No discernible publication

42. Sigma V Society of Hindemburg Melão

43. Ultima Society of Dr. Ivan Ivec

No found publication.

44. GIGA Society of Paul Cooijmans

A members-only publication named Nemesis is active.

45. Sigma VI Society of Hindemburg Melão

46. Grail Society of Paul Cooijmans

G is the publication, unpublished to date.

47. Tera Society of R. Young

Minds that Matter is the publication with one issue in October, 2014 by Editor Moira Greyland.

The shorthand of this listing of 47 with publications can be cut down. The total of 47, in reality, has about 21 discernible publications. While, within a little bit of analysis, these have plenty of replication. So, even further, the 21 would, in fact, be fewer. To start, those 21 would be the following:

The Deep Brain Society of Anna Maria Santoro and Vincenzo D’Onofrio has the publication Profondamente (DeepBrain Society Magazine/DeepBrain Magazine).

Mensa Society of Lancelot Ware and Roland Berrill has the publication Mensa World Journal.

Intertel of Ralph Haines has the publication Integra.

The Top One Percent Society (TOPS) of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin has the publication Termite.

The Glia Society of Paul Cooijmans has the publication Thoth.

International Society for Philosophical Enquiries/International Society for Philosophical Inquiry (ISPE) of Christopher Harding has the publication Telicom.

The Triple Nine Society (TNS) of Richard Canty, Dr. Ronald Hoeflin, Ronald Penner, Edgar Van Vleck, and Kevin Langdon has the publication Vidya.

The AtlantIQ Society of Beatrice Rescazzi and Moreno Casalegno has the publication Leonardo.

The EpIQ Society of Chris Chsioufis has the publication IQ Nexus Journal.

The Infinity International Society (IIS) of Jeffrey Osgood has the publication IQ Nexus Journal.

Epimetheus Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin may have the publication Termite.

HELLIQ Society of Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis has the publication Phenomenon.

Prometheus Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin has the publication Gift of Fire.

Mega Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin has the publication Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society.

Omega Society of Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin may have the publication Termite.

Pi Society of Dr. Nikos Lygeros/Dr. Nik Lygeros has the publication Perfection.

Mega International Society/Mega International of Dr. Gina Langan (formerly Gina LoSasso/Gina Losasso) and Christopher Langan/Chris Langan/Christopher Michael Langan have, or had, the publications Noesis-E and Ubiquity.

OLYMPIQ Society of Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis has the publication Phenomenon.

GIGA Society of Paul Cooijmans has the publication Nemesis.

Grail Society of Paul Cooijmans has the publication G.

Tera Society of R. Young has the publication Minds that Matter.

Yet, when looking at these 21 without replication and with more recent activity, we find 10:

Mensa World Journal.
Thoth.
Telicom.
Vidya.
Leonardo.
Phenomenon.
Gift of Fire.
Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society.
Perfection.
Nemesis.

Even eliminating ones only meant for once new membership arrives or has clear presentation to the public or to the membership, we have fewer in number with 8:

Others with an honourable mention with three issues intermittently published in the last couple of years, or so, are Deus VULT of CatholIQ Society with Domogoj Domo Kutle/Domagoj Kutle BScEE, Dalibor Marincic MEng, Patrick O’Shea, PhD, Mislav Predavec, Stephan Wagner Damianowitsch, Iakovos Koukas PhD, Thomas Hally, Phillip Power, Kirk Raymond Butt, PhD, DTh, Eick Sternhagen, PhD, Sandra Schlick, PhD, Ivan Ivec, PhD, Dalibor Marincic, MEng, and Patrick O`Shea, PhD., and USIA Research Journal of United Sigma Intelligence Association (formerly United Sigma Korea) with Bryan Kim/YoungHoon Bryan Kim/YoungHoon Kim and Ian Bott, and GENIUS: Proceedings and Publications of the GENIUS High IQ Network/GENIUS: Journal of the GENIUS High IQ Network of The GENIUS High IQ Network with Iakovos Koukas and Daniel Pohl.

Deus VULT listed as a semi-newsletter in the first issue and as a journal in the latest issue. USIA Research Journal listed as published irregularly. GENIUS: Proceedings and Publications of the GENIUS High IQ Network/GENIUS: Journal of the GENIUS High IQ Network with four issues: “Gnorizon,” “Logicon,” “Thymicon,” and “Noemon,” standing for science/knowledge, logic/philosophy, art/literature, and intelligence/psychology, respectively. If incorporating these with the list of 8, we have 11 active high-I.Q. publications with variations in provisions, rarities, frequency, length, style, content, and tone:

1. Mensa World Journal.

2. Thoth.

3. Telicom.

4. Vidya.

5. Leonardo.

6. Phenomenon.

7. Gift of Fire.

8. Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society.

9. Deus VULT.

10. USIA Research Journal.

11. GENIUS: Proceedings and Publications of the GENIUS High IQ Network/GENIUS: Journal of the GENIUS High IQ Network.

Not everyone, clearly, but it’s a start — there you go; well done to all, and to your communities, as such, murmurs in the void with some eyes watching and comprehending.

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2022-08-21

Stains Upon the Stains

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/06/13

Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) is a Member of the Mega Society based on a qualifying score on the Mega Test (before 1995) prior to the compromise of the Mega Test and Co-Editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. In self-description, May states: “Not even forgotten in the cosmic microwave background (CMB), I’m an Amish yuppie, born near the rarified regions of Laputa, then and often, above suburban Boston. I’ve done occasional consulting and frequent Sisyphean shlepping. Kafka and Munch have been my therapists and allies. Occasionally I’ve strived to descend from the mists to attain the mythic orientation known as having one’s feet upon the Earth. An ailurophile and a cerebrotonic ectomorph, I write for beings which do not, and never will, exist — writings for no one. I’ve been awarded an M.A. degree, mirabile dictu, in the humanities/philosophy, and U.S. patent for a board game of possible interest to extraterrestrials. I’m a member of the Mega Society, the Omega Society and formerly of Mensa. I’m the founder of the Exa Society, the transfinite Aleph-3 Society and of the renowned Laputans Manqué. I’m a biographee in Who’s Who in the Brane World. My interests include the realization of the idea of humans as incomplete beings with the capacity to complete their own evolution by effecting a change in their being and consciousness. In a moment of presence to myself in inner silence, when I see Richard May’s non-being, ‘I’ am. You can meet me if you go to an empty room.” Some other resources include Stains Upon the Silence: something for no one, McGinnis Genealogy of Crown Point, New York: Hiram Porter McGinnis, Swines List, Solipsist Soliloquies, Board Game, Lulu blog, Memoir of a Non-Irish Non-Jew, and May-Tzu’s posterous. Recently, we released an ebook, here (hyperlinked).

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Where does the original book’s title Stains Upon the Silence start? Who coined it? What is the idea behind it?

Richard May: Please allow me to quote one of the innumerable people who do not know Richard May/May-Tzu viz. Richard May/May-Tzu at the beginning of our second interview:

Richard May[1],[2]*: I think the expression that “each word is a stain upon the silence” originated with Samuel Beckett, who may have implied that his words were less true and beautiful than silence. The silence of pure consciousness in the moment is suggested to and by me, but not necessarily meant by Beckett, analogous to sunyata, the Buddhistic void.

“ — Something for no one” anticipates that the book is unlikely to immediately be made into a hit TV series or become a popular film. Only the subset of the general population with both fairly high cognitive ability and a degree of “right-brainedness” and/or appreciation of artistic creativity are likely to value the work. These two factors probably have a correlation of about zero (0). So this is not a large potential audience.

Jacobsen: Its structure seems almost ‘damn-it-all’ as if not there, though discernible in snippets. What is the intended “structure” if any of Stains Upon the Silence?

May: I just arranged material which had been published in Noesis, and, hence in some sense vetted, sequentially in what appeared to be to me an not entirely random order by meanings. But each writing was done separately and independently of the others, so in fact there is only little order.

Jacobsen: You were the second person to earn a perfect score on the verbal section of the Mega Test of Ronald Hoeflin, the first being Marilyn vos Savant (Marilyn Mach vos Savant), which permitted entrance into the Mega Society. A theoretical 1-in-a-million high-I.Q. society based out of the United States of America, primarily, though international if considering an online environment for readers and contributors to the journal, Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. You are the Co-Editor with Ken Shea of Noesis. Even with these, for the most part, as you note, you have avoided the media. Why avoid the media?

May: I have little respect for the rather biased main stream media today. I have no desire to be famous. How does it enhance me if I have, or imagine that I have, millions of drooling fans and even less privacy? Some may use media attention to make money, which is a different matter. My persona or false personality should not be propped up, especially by strangers or by imaginary ‘friends’ on Meta or whatever.

Jacobsen: With these decades of avoiding the media when intermittent opportunities arose for you, when I asked for In-Sight Publishing, why accept the interview(s)?

May: Your interviews with Rick Rosner had been published in Noesis, so I thought you probably would not do a drive by shooting.

Jacobsen: The interviews, so far, carried into 11 sessions, which shows commitment and patience from you. Why stick it out?

May: Maybe these interviews are my children, pathetic from a normal perspective, I suppose. But at least I don’t have to change their diapers. The shit remains right where it is — in the interview. I don’t have to pay their college tuition either. And I don’t need to have the Nature inspired delusion that I am my genes and will somehow live on in my progeny.

Jacobsen: Our first formal book production became Stains Upon the Stains. Why choose this title?

May: If my writings are stains upon the silence, then my commentary on the writings would be stains upon the stains, if I’m lucky.

Jacobsen: What can readers future-past or past-future ‘expect’?

May: My hope, of course, is that this will all be made into a major motion picture that no one will go to.

Jacobsen: Thanks, Chard.

May: I’m only a shard of chard now. But thank you and you are very welcome.

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2022-08-21

Canadian Pastor Bruxy Cavey Alleged Sexual Assault Cases Continue

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/06/12

Bruxy Cavey (57), disgraced Canadian pastor, has been charged with sexual assault against an adult female. Cavey is a pastor of one of the largest churches in Canada, The Meeting House. It has 20 campuses across Ontario. The charge came May 31.

In March, Cavey was requested to resign from post as a pastor of the church in March of 2022. The March request came after an independent investigator found Cavey had a years-long sexual relationship with a member of the church.

The church investigator stated the prior relationship was “sexual harassment” and an “abuse of power.” Detective Jeremy Miller, Hamilton Police Service, stated the unit received a “publication ban.” This means some information cannot be released to the public.

Cavey came voluntarily to the police station. He was charged and released. He will appear in court on June 27. The alleged assault happened off church property in Hamilton. Days after resignation, two more allegations of sexual misconduct emerged against Cavey.

In a June 6 press release, the Hamilton police believe more victims may be extant. Cavey considered the first accusations as true and “an extramarital affair.” No statute of limitations exists for criminal charges brought on sexual assault in Canada.

Consent in Level 1 sexual assault, as brought to Cavey, means the abuse of trust, power, or authority.

With files from Religion News Service

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2022-08-21

Ride On Time in Triumph: Canadian Equestrianism and Injuries

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/06/11

Injuries remain common in all sports. Each comes with statistical tendencies in injury rates and severities. Equestrianism harbours its own unfortunate cases, even among the most accomplished riders in the sport’s Canadian history.

Not a lot of up-to-date information exists on the rates of injuries in the 2020s for equestrians, however, the Government of Canada has some statistics from 1996 archived. I could be wrong here. At the time, 48.1% of injuries were children 10-to-14 years of age. For riders, this, probably, makes sense as those are the ages many youths enter into horse riding.

As with anyone entering a sport for the first time, injuries will occur. 76.5% of all equestrian injuries were women. Again, this makes a lot of sense, as most of the riders are women in Canada, if agglomerating the participation numbers over all age cohorts. Those with more experience in the industry would be able to provide plausible reasons as to the injuries occurring in the summer (40.9%), the weekends (46.9%), and between 12:00 and 20:00 (62.2%).

These statistics seem to tell a story of summer weekends between 12:00 and 20:00 as the most likely time for injury, especially amongst 10-to-14-year-old girls. The majority of these injuries (62.1%) happened when the rider fell from the horse. As someone new to the industry, this is commonly stated. It’s dangerous to ride a horse. If you ride, you’re going to fall. If you fall, you’ll likely get hurt. Regardless, take some Advil and get back on the horse, the day is still here, and long.

In the industry, in equestrianism, in Canada, the risk of injury is high. Yet, as I have witnessed in working in the industry, the people, mostly women — who tolerate me (lucky me), remain devoted to the activity. They love riding. They love horses, particularly theirs. They love the social life. They love the art and sport of horsemanship. In Canada, one could, with a neologism, legitimately quip, “The art and sport of Horsewomanship.”

As stated in the first article entitled “Canadian Equitation Equation Introduction: Langley, Horse Capital of B.C.,” the major players in the history and active communities of equestrianism can be catalogued rather tightly: “Amy Millar, Eric Lamaze, Erynn Ballard/Erynn L. Ballard, Ian Millar, James Day, James Elder, Jill Henselwood, Laura Balisky (Tidball-Balisky/Tidball), Lisa Carlsen, Mac Cone, Mario Deslauriers, Michel Vaillancourt, Nicole Walker, Thomas (Tom) Gayford, Tiffany Foster, Yann Candele.” I am happy to include others. Neither snubbing nor ignoring, merely an organic development of knowledge from a base zero.

Others exist. Yet, the aforementioned comprise a close-knit listing of the country’s best in class over a span of several decades, as noted by Olympic participation, for example. The natural question in a brief look at statistics more than a quarter of a century old: “What about the most accomplished riders?” Indeed, they have experienced extreme injuries, several of them. The biographical data may be disparate for some.

Nonetheless, these individuals will partake of a natural consequence of riding horses for a long time and jumping at the 1.60m level. One could infer: If jumping higher, then falling farther, so injuries being more severe when occurring.

By the way, equestrians state things in a particular patois. They have a world unto themselves, thus a lingo, too. In this manner, most Canadians would state 1.60 metres as “one point six zero metres.” Equestrians say, “A metre sixty.” Language always gives people away. Horse people, in this way, have a consistency with everyone else, in nuanced speech acts and patterns delineating a linguistic culture.

Let’s look at them alphabetically from first name, as presented above:

Amy Millar does not seem to have suffered a major injury when looking into popular reportage. Unless, naturally, or of course, I am missing a narrative. The only period of requiring time away from riding appears to be giving birth (son, Alexander; daughter, Lily).

Eric Lamaze, as some commentators note, looks as if deserving of a book devoted to his professional narrative. The death of Hickstead with an acute aortic rupture at competition, the cocaine basis for rejection in competing with an overturn of the decision by an arbitrator (and cold medication, diet pills, and cocaine, in a later occasion), the Olympic medals and comebacks, the battle with brain cancer, and, most recently, the announcement of formal retirement in March of 2022, can set some points of future reflection and writing. As this particular article’s foci are injuries, he was out for three weeks from a foot injury with aggressive surgery involving screws at one time, which seems minor to other eventualities of personal choices, in some considerations, and happenstances of unfortunate fate, in others.

Erynn Ballard/Erynn L. Ballard, in May of 2013, fell and broke a collarbone and damaged a shoulder joint. This resulted in nerve damage and a nearly paralyzed arm. Within one year, she returned. Another story of triumph amongst Canadian equestrians.

Ian Millar, “Captain Canada,” had an accident at his farm in Perth in October, 2020. He was 74-years-old. When riding a young mare that reared her hind legs, came down hard and spun around, Millar went through the air, landed, and the mare came down on him 3 times. He suffered major blood loss in his left arm above the elbow. He reported seeing nerves and muscles in the injury. He returned after treatment to his home in about 6 hours.

James Day harbours an incredible equestrian pedigree in Canadian show jumping history. To his credit, as far as I can find, I do not see a history of a major injury for Day.

James Elder, similar to Day and of the same pedigree, I cannot find an explicit story — perhaps, due to the historical nature of the accomplishments and legacy — about an injury.

Jill Henselwood, similar to Day and Elder, did not acquire a major injury in the midst of performing in a basic review of some online resource. For a period of her career, Henselwood had significant luck, by some reportage.

Laura Balisky (Laura Tidball-Balisky/Laura Tidball), first Canadian and youngest woman to win both the ASPCA Maclay Medal Final (1980) and the AHSA Medal Finals, does not seem to have a significant injury on the records in a simple examination of records.

Lisa Carlsen, as another without an apparent record of injury, seems to have come out unscathed in the major injury department of Canadian equestrians.

Mac Cone appears to only have an injured horse hindering career progression on the record.

Mario Deslauriers did not appear to suffer a significant injury. In fact, he simply appears remarkable for returning after 33 years to the sport.

Michel Vaillancourt did not suffer from a major injury. However, his father, in fact, died from an accident in 1971, where his mount fell on him, which seems particularly tragic for a young man.

Nicole Walker had an incident, according to her, of ingesting coca tea, which lead to a drug test resulting in cocaine metabolite benzoylecgonine identification. A Prohibited Substance under the World Anti-Doping Agency (WADA) Code, this resulted, eventually, in Canada’s disqualification from the 2020 team spot at Tokyo. Panam Sports accepted the coca leaf consumption claim. She suffered a more serious professional injury of the knee. She tore the ACL or anterior cruciate ligament, had minor tears of other ligaments, and fractured the fibular head. She recovered by 2021 and has been competing successfully. Another rising story of success and triumph.

Thomas (Tom) Gayford has been a historical figure, as with James Day and Jim Elder, as highly successful figures in Canadian show jumping. However, as with Day and Elder, I cannot find a significant injury of the gentleman. Although, one can find lots of medals.

Tiffany Foster, when schooling an inexperienced 6-year-old mare, attempted to teach the mare to jump a line of small jumps measuring about one metre in height, or a cavalettis, slower than before. Something bad happened. Next thing Foster knew, she woke up, face in the sand with “searing pain” — then unconscious again. She awoke strapped-up in an emergency room in a local hospital. She had a burst fracture at the T-6 vertebrae, loose bone particles floated around her spinal cord. An 8-hour surgery led to “a plate, six screws, six clips, and two titanium rods inserted, and [her] spine fused from T-2 to T-10.”

Yann Candele, as with others, does not appear to have suffered a major injury, while being a successful international show jumper for Canada.

Injuries don’t always happen to equestrians. When they happen at the highest level, they tend to be significant and require weeks to months of reparative work. All this analysis side-steps the lifelong issues, potentially, sitting before all equestrians with issues of the hip, back, and elsewhere, due to the strain on the body from riding. These side-stepped issues are not pins, screws, bolts, and titanium plates; they’re gradual erosion of the body in an all-consuming, entirely demanding professional sport. Others can be examined of prominence in equestrianism in Canada, and more in-depth research can be done. Nonetheless, all this says, “It’s a lifestyle.”

Life lesson: Apparently, injuries are common at all levels, sometimes highly damaging physically, with international show jumping as a do-or-die sport; bottom line, equestrians make a ‘beast of burden’ do something almost civilized, somewhat human-like, with an ever-present risk of bodily damage at all stages and ages.

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2022-08-21

Temporary Suspension of Random Arrival COVID-19 Testing in Canada

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/06/11

Randomized arrival testing at Canadian airports will be suspended (on the prior mandatory basis). Only unvaccinated travellers on June 11 forward will require testing upon re-entry into Canada.

Previously, fully vaccinated travellers were subjected to randomized testing too. It amounts to a pause on the random arrival testing between June 11 and July 1. July 1, the randomized testing, presumably, will begin once again.

Health Minister Jean-Yves Duclos’ spokesperson, Marie-France Proulx, stated, “…this is the only way we have of detecting new variants coming into the country, given that provinces and territories are no longer doing any PCR testing.”

Airports, with these changes, can dismantle testing sites dedicated specified in particular spaces at airports. The three-week period permits to shift to off-site testing of COVID-19.

Tourism Minister Randy Boissonnault said, “It’s going to make sure that the airports flow more quickly. The airports aren’t designed to be mini health care centres and so this will help with staff, it’ll help with congestion… So this is a good step in the right direction.”

With more widespread vaccination, especially among Canadians, and a vaccine-induced immunity to the virus, a widespread testing regime may become less necessary, according to public health experts. The removal of upon-arrival testing sites will reduce clogged airport systems and delays at airports.

However, the Government of Canada has defended the arrival testing program on the grounds of finding novel variants of the coronavirus, potentially, entering into the country and tracking the number of COVID-19 cases coming into Canada.

A major concern for all parties has been Toronto Pearson International’s hours-long waits as of recent. Staff may be overburdened in the midst of this. Greater Toronto Airport Authority (GTAA) has expressed this concern of delays. This will become worse, if kept up for the busy summer months.

The Canadian Government has hired 800 Canadian Air Transport Security Authority (CATSA) screening officers to process this deluge of passengers. Opposition Conservatives urge the Government of Canada to drop vaccine mandates. These require travellers to give proof of vaccination. Passengers are required to show proof of vaccination, which the Opposition Conservatives disagree with as a policy.

Vaccine mandate is still required for federal employees and transport workers. Some claim this is resulting in staff shortages for airports.

With files from CBC News

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2022-08-21

Prof. Vaknin on Freedom of Expression

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/06/10

*Previous interviews listed chronologically after interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Freedom of expression is a paper right in most places of the world. It is listed in international rights documents and in national constitutions. Yet, one could ask, “What is the ‘free’ part of freedom of expression?” It depends on the society and the culture, and the person. So, to open this session, what is a proper framing of rights, responsibilities, obligations, and privileges in societies, i.e., an accurate frame or definition to ground practice of free expression?

Prof. Shmuel “Sam” Vaknin: Freedom of expression, including freedom of speech and freedom of the press, is a feature of individualistic societies. Where collectivism reigns, this amalgam of rights is subordinated to the greater good.

Ironically, utilitarianism inexorably leads to limitations on these freedoms intended to protect the majority against the incursions of disruptive or even destructive minorities.

Yet, even in anarchic polities, freedom of expression cannot be abused to spread panic (crying fire in a crowded theatre), life threatening misinformation (re: the COVID-19 pandemic), or to threaten the wellbeing and lives of others (e.g., virulent racism, or calls for eugenic culling, or victimization). Only anomic civilizations in decadent decline countenance such toxic speech acts.

Jacobsen: Which countries and parts of the world seem the freest regarding freedom of expression?

Vaknin: It is a surprisingly mixed bag including perennials like Denmark and Finland, but also surprises like Argentina and Slovakia.

But freedom — all freedoms — are on the decline everywhere, besieged by populism, profound mistrust of authority and of expertise, anti-intellectualism, anti-elitism, anti-liberalism (anti-“progressivism”), and the dominance of rapid dissemination technologies such as social media.

Ochlocracies (mob rule) are regaining ground all over the world, led by authoritarian, proudly ignorant, and defiantly contumacious and reactant narcissistic-psychopathic leaders.

Jacobsen: Which nations and regions of the world seem the least free regarding freedom of expression?

Vaknin: Again, the rankings are counterintuitive. Canada, for example, is less free than Uruguay and the USA is languishing with Peru somewhere at the bottom of the upper third.

Jacobsen: How did (and does) the internet change freedom of expression or the access to free exchange of words, ideas, and philosophies, or simply disjointed randomly emoted thoughts?

Vaknin: In the internet age, the distinction between raw information and knowledge (structured data) is lost. The internet is a huge dumping ground for half-baked truths, rank nonsense, misinformation, propaganda, hate speech, speculation, and outright derangement. Even where vetted and reliable information is available, it is unprocessed and out of context.

No single technology has harmed free expression more than the internet. It has created a problem of discoverability (locating quality content in a sempiternal tsunami of trash) and allowed mobs to form and to ominously suppress speech by sheer force of numbers (the cancel culture is the latest example of such transgressions).

All semblance of civilized, informed speech is now lost even in academe. Social media were deliberately constructed by engineers and turncoat psychologists to polarize aggressive speech and cement confirmation bias (silos of like-minded people in echo chambers).

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, is this net good or net bad?

Vaknin: Bad by a long shot.

https://videotranscripts.dk/ (Transcripts)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wpvv_ooqJik (The True Toxicity of Social Media)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QY79nDYjW94 (Malignant Egalitarianism)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jvuRmP3KP1g (The Need to Be Seen)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=WgjOH0kDErw (A-social Media: Fracking Mankind)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jVprI6_P8GE (Plugged-in Documentary)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2rKrWNWkS0 (How to Fix Social Media)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fIElARjRGTo (Social Media as the Big Eye)

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NTwxAJDMTo (Metaverse: Conspiracy or Heaven?)

Jacobsen: One camp will claim complete freedom of expression in social media will be a net good because the liars and defamers will be overwhelmed by more reasonable voices and evidence. Another camp thinks there should be sharp restrictions on particular types of speech, electronic communication, and so on. Those are two big ones. A third believes in outlawing social media altogether, so stringently binding or making illegal social media for some people if not most or all. It’d be similar to acquisition of a firearm in much of the world, getting a driver’s license, qualifying as a surgeon or an accountant, and such. You have commented on this. With social media, what should be done for or against freedom of expression, if anything?

Vaknin: Social media are utilities and should be subjected to the same regulatory oversights that other media and monopolistic utilities are under.

Additionally, owing to the addictive nature of social media, laws should be passed to restrict their use and to monitor the content posted on them.

Self-regulation is a myth on Wall Street as it is in tech valleys around the globe. Where money rears its head, morality and restraint and the public interest go out of the window.

Crowdsourced regulation is the dumbest idea ever. Majorities are forever silent and conflict-averse. Ask the misnamed Mensheviks who were actually the overwhelming majority and yielded to the equally mislabeled Bolsheviks who were more ruthless and vociferous and better mobilized.

Jacobsen: What does social media and internet use do in mild use and in chronic use to the mental health of individuals and groups?

Vaknin: The evidence is unequivocal (see the studies by Twenge et al.): the more extensive the exposure to screens, the longer the screentime, the higher the prevalence and incidence of anxiety and depressive disorders, especially among the young (under 25) and among seniors over 65. There is no such thing as “mild” or “moderate” use: the effects commence at the first moment of use.

Jacobsen: What do trends of expression and outcomes among users of social media tell us about individual psychology and mass psychology, and social media in general?

Vaknin: By far the biggest problem social media use has fostered is what I call “malignant egalitarianism”.

Malignant egalitarianism is threatening our existence as a species. Until about 10 years ago, people — even narcissists — had role models they sought to learn from and emulate and ideals which they aspired to.

Today, everyone — never mind how unintelligent, ignorant, or unaccomplished — claim superiority or at least equality to everyone else.

Armed with egalitarian equal access technology like social media, everyone virulently detest and seek to destroy or reduce to their level their betters and that which they cannot attain or equal.

Pathological envy (egged on by instruments of relative positioning such as “likes”) had fully substituted for learning and self-improvement. Experts, scholars, and intellectuals are scorned and threatened. Everyone is an instant polymath and an ersatz da Vinci.

But, this is just one of many vile side effects and byproducts of social media. Watch my videos on the topic (see links above).

Jacobsen: How will the Metaverse, and associated developments, in the 2030s affect relations between people?

Vaknin: Is the Metaverse the ultimate dystopia, an escape from reality, or the promised technological heaven? I summarized my views in this interview: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5NTwxAJDMTo.

Jacobsen: If the goal is mental health for most people most of the time, what are the most efficacious policies and laws for governments to enact, and for individuals and families to practice, regarding social media and the right to freedom of expression?

Vaknin: Limit usage time (clocks embedded in the app will terminate use after 2 hours);

Only real life friends and acquaintances would be allowed to become online friends;

Identity verification would be mandatory for various types of content;

Introduce an accreditation system for experts, gurus, and coaches online;

ScholarTube for vetted, evidence-based knowledge provided by real-life academics or experts;

Curation of most content prior to its release (the contemporary Wikipedia model as distinct from the original crowdsourcing mess).

More here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=w2rKrWNWkS0 (How to Fix Social Media)

Shoshanim: Thank you, Dr. Shmuel.

Vaknin: You are always welcome, shoshanim!

Previous Electronic ‘Print’ Interviews (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Narcissism in General”

(News Intervention: January 28, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Cold Therapy (New Treatment Modality)”

(News Intervention: January 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Giftedness and IQ”

(News Intervention: February 2, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Religion”

(News Intervention: February 11, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Science and Reality”

(News Intervention: April 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Gender Wars”

(News Intervention: May 21, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Psychological Growth”

(News Intervention: May 24, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Structure, Function, Society, and Survival”

(News Intervention: May 26, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Chronon Field Theory and Time Asymmetry”

(News Intervention: May 28, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Genius and Insanity”

(News Intervention: June 1, 2022)

Previous Interviews Read by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“How to Become the REAL YOU (Interview, News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 26, 2022)

“Insider View on Narcissism: What Makes Narcissist Tick (News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 29, 2022)

“Curing Your Narcissist (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 31, 2022)

“Genius or Gifted? IQ and Beyond (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: February 3, 2022)

“Thrive: Your Future Path to Growth and Change (News Intervention Interview)”

Prof. Sam Vaknin: May 25, 2022)

Image Credit: Sam Vaknin.

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2022-08-21

Canadian Equitation Equation Introduction: Langley, Horse Capital of B.C.

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/06/04

*Updated June 4, 2022.*

Equestrianism in the Township of Langley remains a stable staple of community, competition, education, industry, recreation, and sport. Dozens of businesses devoted to the art of horses, equestrianism, the equine: Equitation (horsemanship) writ broad. As a formal independent journalistic research project in person, the introduction into the industry requires on-the-ground experiential depth, extensive interpersonal interactions with every person involved in all facets, and integration with the theory and praxis of working with and knowing horses & their people, which began in late 2021 working from the bottom with zero background in education or careers to buttress entrance into the discipline. The necessary embarrassment of a steep learning curve and arduous manual labour to become acquainted with the sensations and experiences of working around the equine and equestrians. Nothing prepares for it; a world unto itself and, in a manner of speaking, a community unlike most others, though seemingly disparate while networked.

This is a terse introduction to the horse capital of British Columbia: The Township of Langley. A more thorough presentation will be delivered in future articles. In some sense of the term “fundament,” a fundament of Langley is recognition of this as a land of hippophiles in British Columbia. Those thoroughly bred in family/blood lineages warm to the equine. Its businesses, clubs, equestrian centres, equestrian facilities, farms, horse riding schools, ranches, places for instruction, und so weiter, are manifest, plentiful, which makes sense of the moniker: The Horse Capital of British Columbia. Even with a simple search, you can witness the vast number of networked enterprises.

These are the names emerging for Langley alone: Milner Downs Equestrian Center (2005) Ltd, Sacred Equestrians, Los Vientos Equestrian Centre, High Point Equestrian Center, Westcott Equestrian, Greenhawk Equestrian Sport — Langley, Louisa Nicholls Riding Instruction, M & M Connemaras Horse Farm, Cornwall Ridge Farm, Priority 1 Equestrian, Ponte Equestrian Estates, Sunshine Equestrian Centre, Langley 204 Horseback Riding, Greenhawk Harness & Equestrian Supplies, Thunderbird Show Stables, Park Lane Equestrian Centre, Thorbrooke Equestrian, Cartwright Equestrian, Willow Creek Equestrian Centre, Elysium Equine Ltd, Double 4 Equestrian Centre (double 4 equestrian), Footnote Farm, Excelsior Stables & Nicki Muller Training, Sunny Riding Stables, Windsum Enterprises Ltd, Martinoff Equestrian, Langlee Acres, Shelley Lawder Dressage, Equine Studies Canada, Namastables, Sierra Stables, Equidice Stables, Windsor Stables, Thunderbird Show Park, Silver Fox Horse Sales, Epona Stable and Farms Ltd, Sterling Stables, Valley Therapeutic Equestrian Association, Highliner Stables Ltd, Pacific Country Stables, Villa Training, Perneill Training, Dog & Pony Shop, Campbell Downs Equestrian Centre, Papalia Training, Twin Rivers, Hideaway Stables, Hazelmere Equestrian Center, Pacific Riding for Developing Abilities, Stepping Stones Riding & Horsemanship, Triple M Farms, Flightline Farm Arabians, Ponies 4 You, Vintage Riders Equestrian Club, Hit Air Equestrian Canada, OSJS, Glen Valley Stables, The Tack Addict, Denham Stables, Ponder Park Stables, Langley Riders Society, Short Stirrup Stables, October Farm, Highbury Dressage, Jump Start Stables, Gloucester Downs, Laughing Stock Ranch, Skyline Equine, Alliance Training & Stud, The Grene Wode, Bekevar Farms, Willow Lake Farm & Stables, Hobbit Hole Farm, Twin Creeks Ranch, Dreamscape Farm, Adiva Murphy Horsemanship Centre, Rebel Equestrian, EnJ Equine First Aid Training, Freedom Farms livestock, Thunderbird Tack Shop, Unbridling Your Brilliance, Willow Acres, Sycamore Hills Equestrian, Pinto Miremadi Horsemanship, Keepsake Farms, WestMoore Dressage, Dog & Pony Shop, Iron Gait Stables, Hutter Sport Horse Auctions, Thorbrooke Tack, Mia Sheldon Horsemanship, Horse Council BC, Kingdom View Equestrian, High Country Horseshoes, Thunderbird Livestock, BZ Built, Wise Equine Veterinary Services Ltd, Dares Country Feeds, and Stampede Tack & Western Wear, Horse Lover’s Math, probably others.

If not included in the above listing, and wanting inclusion, please let me know (Email: Scott.Douglas.Jacobsen@Gmail.Com), my research is not comprehensive; I’m new to the industry, and know little, even nothing, have mercy on me. The introductory examination to some equestrianism in British Columbia will begin with the Township of Langley while emphasizing those with publicly accessible records via a website, typically. The staggering breadth of one municipality’s horse community extends to other municipalities and across the country — let alone internationally — into a single question, “Where to begin with horses?” Naturally, one at a time, I like a challenge — should be fun.

Canadian equestrianism harbours several household names on the national and international stage: Amy Millar, Eric Lamaze, Erynn Ballard/Erynn L. Ballard, Ian Millar, James Day, James Elder, Jill Henselwood, Laura Balisky (Tidball-Balisky/Tidball), Lisa Carlsen, Mac Cone, Mario Deslauriers, Michel Vaillancourt, Nicole Walker, Thomas (Tom) Gayford, Tiffany Foster, Yann Candele, and many others. Some of these names — e.g., James Day, James Elder, and Thomas Gayford — span back as far as 1968 as a team in show jumping at the Olympics in Mexico City. By the way, all three extant, alive.

While equestrianism can be considered a pursuit for fun, as in a hobby, for most individuals who enter into the discipline, this can slowly, almost inevitably, become a “lifestyle,” which seems like a common phrase in conversation with a number of equestrians, including interviews. It envelops them, as if slowly surrounded by the warm embrace of a horse’s equivalent of a hug. Among other tidbits given by them, to me, when not attempting to force a positive or a negative image of equestrianism, horsemanship, at all levels, remains pluripotent.

Horsemanship seems as if a means by which to show talent relative to one’s class, to integrate one’s flow and feel with a ‘beast of burden’ to perform civilized almost human-like actions, to socialize in a community of others with similar sensibilities and sensitivities, to make a living passing on knowledge to next generations, to create a safe and nurturing environment for girls, women, and the elderly who wish to get on the saddle, et cetera. Even the simple act of tacking up, getting the horse ready, you can watch the gossip, the chit-chatter, and natural activities of a community in love with a lifestyle — fair enough.

All the way to international FEI events and Longines rankings representing the best in class in the world, including several Canadians. Whether small family farms to middle sized ranches to professional equestrian facilities, or carriage tours, or the media sensations about the toings-and-froings of various prominent personalities in community, Canadian equestrianism appears singular (“unto itself”) in many ways. Langley, as one provincial capital, of horses seems like a natural starting place to begin an introduction into equestrianism, so to a community unto itself and, potentially, unlike most others.

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2022-08-21

Prof. Vaknin on Genius and Insanity

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/06/01

*Previous interviews listed chronologically after interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Delusions remain ubiquitous. Delusions in conspiracy theories found in 5G, backmasking, Big Pharma, chemtrails, free energy suppression, Holocaust denial, New World Order-ism, QAnon, and so on. Delusions formalized in cults. Delusions in religious discourse, organization, and practice. Delusions promoted in quack ‘medicine’ with acupuncture, alternative ‘medicine,’ anti-GMO movements, anti-vaccination activism, aromatherapy, chiropractory, conversion therapy, faith healing, homeopathy, naturopathy, psychic surgery, Reiki, reflexology, traditional Chinese medicine, and such. Delusions in anti-intellectualism with creation ‘science’ (e.g., the variants of Creationism and Intelligent Design), global warming denialism or even alarmism in some respects, God of the gaps-ism, ‘holy’ text literalism, homeschooling, paranormalism, quantum woo, und so weiter. Delusions in bigotries and prejudices including anti-Semitism, or racist ideologies bound to politics or religion (e.g., white supremacist KKK, black supremacist Nation of Islam, and the like). Delusions in social and political cure-alls for societies’ ills — panaceas, e.g., American commitments to the idea of every problem having a solution. Then there are those who took a permanent lift-off from terra firma and detached from reality altogether, e.g., or a case study, the person running the “Sam Vaknin Scum Antichrist” YouTube channel — an apparent idiotic crazy (read: demented screwball) person. You know the deal. We’re on the same page in the identical book here. There’s a thin line, as has been observed before, between true genius and real insanity. What factors set the distinctions between insanity, on the one hand, and genius, on the other?

Prof. Shmuel “Sam” Vaknin: The problem is that both madness and genius involve the ability to reframe reality in an unexpected way (i.e., provide insight) either by gaining a synoptic or interdisciplinary vantage point — or by radically departing from hidden underlying assumptions.

The scientific method is designed to tell the two apart by applying the test of falsifiable predictions. Both madness and genius are theories of the world and of the mind and, like every other type of theory, they yield predictions which can then be tested and falsified.

Most of the predictions yielded by insanity are easily and instantly falsifiable. Most of the predictions garnered by genius hold water for long stretches of time and, even when falsified, it is only in private cases or in extreme conditions. Thus, the theories of relativity falsify Newtonian prediction only on vast scales with incredible energies.

Jacobsen: What are the easiest means by which to distinguish a genius from an insane person?

Vaknin: Psychopathology is rigid. It is unyielding, not amenable to learning, nauseatingly repetitive, constricting, and divorced from reality (impaired reality testing). The genius is immersed in the world even if he is a recluse, he learns and evolves all the time, his mind is kaleidoscopic and vibrant, ever expanding. Insanity is mummified, genius is life reified.

Jacobsen: Is high intelligence required for true genius?

Vaknin: If by intelligence you mean IQ then the answer is a resounding no. The adage about perspiration and inspiration applies. But, more importantly, genius is the ability to see familiar things in a fresh, unprecedented way. Imagination, intuition, and the ability to tell apart the critical from the tangential are the core constituents of genius — not intelligence.

What intelligence does contribute to genius is alacrity. It is a catalyst. It speeds up both the processes of theorizing and of discovery.

Jacobsen: What happens to an insane person who happens to have high intelligence too?

Vaknin: He is likely to construct theories that will pass for genius, especially among laymen. The intelligence of the gifted madman serves to camouflage the lack of rigor and the delusional, counterfactual content of his creations. Rather than catalyze disruptive discoveries, his intellect works overtime at the service of aggressively defending a manifestly risible sleight of hand. It is not open to any modificatory feedback from the environment. The madman’s intellect is solipsistic and moribund.

Jacobsen: What happens in the mind of a genius who slowly deteriorates into an insane person?

Vaknin: He visibly transitions from cognitive flexibility to defensive and hypervigilant rigidity (confirmation bias). His work becomes way more easily falsifiable, sometimes even with mere Gedankenexperiments. He repeats himself ad nauseam. He becomes grandiose (cognitively distorts reality to buttress an inflated and fantastic self-image).

Jacobsen: How do fake geniuses cover for their lack of insight, ingenuity, intelligence, etc.?

Vaknin: They copy and plagiarize. They imitate a real genius’s structured thinking and work. They are good at promoting themselves and getting credit where none is due. Most of these frauds are actually intelligent, but dark personalities (subclinical narcissists, subclinical psychopaths).

Jacobsen: Is true genius more inborn, innate, native to the individual or more honed, refined, developed extrinsically?

Vaknin: We know that IQ is responsive to environmental stimuli. The analytic kind of genius (IQ above 140 or 160) is by far the most studied because it is the most facilely measurable. There are no studies that rigorously link it to heredity. On balance, anecdotal evidence clearly suggests that genius is acquired and can be inculcated at an early age if the child is subjected to rigorous training and a regime of positive and negative reinforcements.

It would behoove us to make a distinction between polymath or synoptic genius and “idiot savant” type of one-track mental acuity (think “Rain Man”). The latter form definitely is neurological and, probably, with a pronounced genetic contribution.

Jacobsen: Some mental disorders, including schizophrenia, appear mostly heritable. Is it the same for various states of insanity in general?

Vaknin: We don’t know enough, not by a long shot. Certain mental illnesses present with structural and functional abnormalities of the brain that are very likely to be genetically coded for: schizophrenia or Bipolar Disorder. Other mental health issues run in families, so a genetic component is indicated: Borderline Personality Disorder and psychopathy, for instance.

Jacobsen: Which five individuals seem like true geniuses in the modern world to you? I do not mean rich, famous, well-cited, and the like; even though, they may be rich, famous, or well-cited, etc., as a consequence of successful implementation of aspects of their genius.

Vaknin: Versatile polymaths included Einstein (of course), Richard Feynman (see my interview on Chronon Field Theory), Noam Chomsky, George Steiner (whom I had the pleasure of knowing), and Adolf Hitler (who regrettably turned his considerable gifts to the dark side).

Jacobsen: Do you consider yourself a genius?

Vaknin: Yes.

Shoshanim: Thank you, once again, for your time and the opportunity, Prof. Vaknin.

Vaknin: OK, Shoshanim!

Previous Electronic ‘Print’ Interviews (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Narcissism in General”

(News Intervention: January 28, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Cold Therapy (New Treatment Modality)”

(News Intervention: January 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Giftedness and IQ”

(News Intervention: February 2, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Religion”

(News Intervention: February 11, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Science and Reality”

(News Intervention: April 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Gender Wars”

(News Intervention: May 21, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Psychological Growth”

(News Intervention: May 24, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Structure, Function, Society, and Survival”

(News Intervention: May 26, 2022)

“Prof. Vaknin on Chronon Field Theory and Time Asymmetry”

(News Intervention: May 28, 2022)

Previous Interviews Read by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“How to Become the REAL YOU (Interview, News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 26, 2022)

“Insider View on Narcissism: What Makes Narcissist Tick (News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 29, 2022)

“Curing Your Narcissist (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 31, 2022)

“Genius or Gifted? IQ and Beyond (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: February 3, 2022)

“Thrive: Your Future Path to Growth and Change (News Intervention Interview)”

Prof. Sam Vaknin: May 25, 2022)

Image Credit: Sam Vaknin.

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2022-08-21

Prof. Vaknin on Chronon Field Theory and Time Asymmetry

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/05/28

*Previous interviews listed chronologically after interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You earned a Ph.D. based on a dissertation entitled “Time Asymmetry Revisited” from California Miramar University (previously “Pacific Western University”). “Revisited” is a recurring term, whether on the physics of time or the psychology of narcissism. So, let’s revisit the early 1980s, what was the inspiration or practical purpose of a doctorate in physics from 1982–83?

Prof. Shmuel “Sam” Vaknin: In the 1970s, the second law of thermodynamics has emerged as a major explanation for the Time arrow: entropy inexorably increases and its unidirectional growth determines Time’s exclusive trajectory, from past to future.

This tautology (after all: entropy increases in time!) dominated physics. It provided no insight into the nature of Time or reality (correlation is not causation or any other necessary linkage).

In 1982–3, I met Richard Feynman, the Nobel prize winning genius, in Geneva a few times for long evening reveries in a lakeside shed owned by a common friend (the late Dudley Wright).

One evening, Richard, tired of my diatribes, said: “You are insisting that Time is a nonreducible elementary theoretical entity. If it is so, surely you could derive all of physics from this one single underlying process or thing?”

And this is what I set out to do in my dissertation.

Recently, Eytan Suchard et al. took my work and ran with it and were able to derive every single theory and equation in all fields of physics from my original, way more primitive, thesis.

Jacobsen: Why study time in particular?

Vaknin: Time is the only bridge between physical reality and the human mind. Many scholars — Einstein included — went as far as suggesting that Time is nothing but a mental artefact, a reflection of our inability, as finite creatures, to perceive reality in its totality. Others, starting with Newton, regarded time as ontic.

In my work, Time is the field of all potentials. Only the mind (a sentient intelligence) can witness the becoming of these potentials. This harks back to the observer in some interpretations of Quantum Mechanics.

Jacobsen: What were other research possibilities, in physics, of interest at the time?

Vaknin: I did a lot of work in thermodynamics and quantum physics. But I became disenchanted with the latter as it began to resemble metaphysics.

Jacobsen: Why is time symmetric at one scale of existence and asymmetric at another one?

Vaknin: A directional time does not feature in Newtonian mechanics, in electromagnetic theory, in quantum mechanics, in the equations which describe the world of elementary particles (with the exception of the kaon decay), and in some border astrophysical conditions, where there is time symmetry.

Yet, we perceive the world of the macro as time asymmetric and our cosmology and thermodynamics explicitly incorporate a time arrow, albeit one which is superimposed on the equations and not derived from them. The introduction of stochastic processes has somewhat mitigated this conundrum.

Time is, therefore, an epiphenomenon: it does not characterize the parts — though it emerges as a main property of the whole, as an extensive parameter of macro systems.

Jacobsen: What is the point at which time divides between asymmetric and symmetric, even if artificial and not truly real?

Vaknin: No one knows. The emergence of time in macrosystems is one of the greatest mysteries of science.

Jacobsen: What are chronons?

Vaknin: In my doctoral dissertation (Ph.D. Thesis available from the Library of Congress), I postulate the existence of a particle (chronon). Time is the result of the interaction of chronons, very much as other forces in nature are “transferred” in such interactions.

The Chronon is a time “atom” (actually, an elementary particle, a time “quark”). We can postulate the existence of various time quarks (up, down, colors, etc.) whose properties cancel each other (in pairs, etc.) and thus derive the time arrow (time asymmetry).

My postulated particle (chronon) is not only an ideal clock, but also mediates time itself (same like the relationship between the Higgs boson and mass.) In other words: I propose that what we call “time” is the interaction between chronons in a field. The field is time itself. Chronons exchange a particle and thereby exert a force which we call time. Introducing time as a fifth force gives rise to a quasi-deterministic rendition of quantum theories and links inextricably time to other particle properties, such as mass.

“Events” are perturbations in the Time Field and they are distinct from chronon interactions. Chronon interactions (i.e. particle exchange) in the Time Field generate “time” (small t) and “time asymmetry” as we observe them.

My work is, therefore, a Field Theory of Time. The Universe is observing itself. It is the only privileged observer and frame of reference, which restores intuitive (Einsteinian) determinism to physics.

The idea of atomistic, discrete time has a long pedigree in physics (Descartes, Gassendi, Torricelli, among others). More recently, Boltzmann, Mach, and even Poincare all toyed with the concept. There was a brief flowering of various speculative and not very rigorous, almost metaphysical or numerological models immediately after the introduction of quantum mechanics in the 1920s and 1930s (Palacios, Thomson indirectly, Levi who coined the neologism “chronon”, Pokrowski, Gottfried Beck, Schames, Proca with his “granular” time, Ruark, Flint and Richardson, Glaser and Sitte).

Oddly, luminaries such as Pauli, de Broglie, and especially Schroedinger were drawn into the fray, together with lesser lights like Wataghin, Iwanenko, Ambarzumian, Silberstein, Landau, and Peierls. By now, everyone was talking about minimal durations (somehow derived from or correlated to the mass or some other property of each type of elementary particle), not about time “atoms” or a lattice. This subtle conceptual transition between mutually-contradictory notions caused an almighty and enduring confusion. Is time itself somehow discrete/quantized/atomized — or are our measurements discontinuous?

Ever since the early 1960s and especially during the 1990s, there have been several attempts to build on the work of the likes of H. S. Snyder (Physical Review 71, (1) 1947, 38) to suggest a quantized spacetime or a Quantum Field Theory, Tsung Dao Lee’s work being the most notable attempt. More recent work with relativistic stochastic models led inexorably to discrete time

P. Caldirola postulated the existence of a chronon (1955, 1980): “An elementary interval of time characterizing the variation of the particle’s state under the action of external forces”. He calculated chronons for several types of particles, most notably the electron, both classical and in (nonrelativistic) quantum mechanics.

In 1982–3, I proposed that chronons may be actual particles — more about my work HERE. A decade later, in 1992, Kenneth J. Hsu suggested the very same thing (though without reference to my work). He postulated sequencing cues delivered to particles by captured chronons. Like me, he hypothesized the existence of various types of chronons (“large” and small). Chronons, wrote Hsu are also involved in the catalysis of events. Finally, like me, Hsu also posited a field theory for the flow of chronons. In 1994, C. Wolf again suggested the existence of time atoms (Nuov. Cim. B 109 (3) 1994 213).

In 1993, Arthur Charlesby suggested that particles have an intrinsic discrete time property and that time (interval in the presence of relative motion) has a “quantized nature”. This dispenses with the need for a wave concept as a mere mathematical expedient in the case of individual events (though still useful in contemplating continuous relative motion). This notion of “proprietary” or “individual” system-specific time as distinct from a “systemic”, overall Time was further explored by Alexander R. Karimov in 2008.

In the same year (1993), Sidney Golden published a paper in which he claimed that “quantum time-lapses are … an essential feature of the changes undergone by the energy-eigenfunction-evaluated matrix elements of statistical operators that evolve in accordance with an intrinsic temporal discreteness characteristic of strictly irreversible behavior.”

A year later, in 1994, A. P. Balachandran and L. Chandar studied the quantized of time in discretized gravity models with multiple-valued Hamiltonians. Ruy H. A. Farias and Erasmo Recami (2010) applied a quantum of time to obtain startlingly impressive consequences regarding the treatment of electrons (and, more generally, leptons), the free particle, the harmonic oscillator, and the hydrogen atom in both classical and quantum physics, in effect proffering a discretized and surprisingly powerful and useful quantum mechanics. Strangely, their work had very little resonance.

Quantized time has been used to suggest solutions to a panoply of riddles in physics, including the K-meson decay, the Klein-Gordon equation, and the application of Kerr-Newman black holes to electron theory, q-deformations and stochastic subordination (“quantum subordination”), among others (R. Hakim, Journal of Mathematical Physics 9 1968, 1805; B. G. Sidharth, 2000, Alexander R. Karimov,2008; Claudio Albanese and Stephan Lawi).

Jacobsen: With the interactions between the chronons in a field creating perturbations for the creation of the idea of the Time Field, the argument implies the 4-dimensionality of space as space-time comes from the perturbations in the Time Field based on the interactions of the chronons in the field exerting a force. So, in a sense, chronons’ interactions in the Time Field produce the temporal dimension, where without the chronons’ interactions in the Time Field; time would not pass because time would not exist in the first place. What is the apparent time asymmetry in this context?

Vaknin: Timespace can be regarded as a wave function with observer-mediated collapse. All the chronons are entangled at the exact “moment” of the Big Bang. This yields a relativistic QFT with chronons as its Field Quanta (excited states.) The integration is achieved via the quantum superpositions.

Another way to look at it is that the metric expansion of time is implied if time is a fourth dimension of space.Time may even be described as a PHONON of the metric itself.

A more productive approach may involve Perturbative QFT. Time from the Big Bang is mediated by chronons and this leads to expansion (including in the number of chronons.) In this case, there are no bound states.

Chronons as excitation states (stochastic perturbations, vibrations) tie in nicely with superstring theories, but without the baggage of extra dimensions and without the metaphysical nonsense of “music of the spheres”. Perturbations also yield General Relativity: cumulative, “emerging” perturbations amount to a distortion (curvature) of time-space. Both superstring theories and GRT are, therefore, private cases of a Chronon Field Theory.

Jacobsen: Have there been other advancements on these ideas since 1983?

Vaknin: Eytan H. Suchard’s Work

Interacting particles with non-gravitational fields can be seen as clocks whose trajectory is not Minkowsky geodesic.

A field in which a small enough clock is not geodesic can be described by a scalar field of time whose gradient has non-zero curvature. The scalar field is either real which describes acceleration of neutral clocks made of charged matter or imaginary, which describes acceleration of clocks made of Majorana type matter.

This way the scalar field adds information to space-time, which is not anticipated by the metric tensor alone. The scalar field can’t be realized as a coordinate because it can be measured from a reference sub-manifold along different curves.

In a “Big Bang” manifold, the field is simply an upper limit on measurable time by interacting clocks, backwards from each event to the big bang singularity as a limit only.

In De Sitter / Anti De Sitter space-time, reference sub-manifolds from which such time is measured along integral curves are described as all the events in which the scalar field is zero. The solution need not be unique but the representation of the acceleration field by an anti-symmetric matrix is unique up to SU(2) x U(1) degrees of freedom.

Matter in Einstein-Grossmann equation is replaced by the action of the acceleration field, i.e. by a geometric action which is not anticipated by the metric alone. This idea leads to a new formalism of matter that replaces the conventional stress-energy-momentum-tensor. The formalism will be mainly developed for classical but also for quantum physics. The result is that a positive charge manifests small attracting gravity and a stronger but small repelling acceleration field that repels even uncharged particles that measure proper time, i.e. have rest mass.

The negative charge manifests a repelling anti-gravity but also a stronger acceleration field that attracts even uncharged particles that measure proper time, i.e. have rest mass.

The theory leads to causal sets. Spacetime exists only where a chronon wave-function collapses. Work still to be done is to replace particles by strings of collapse events. The theory in its quantum form is of events and not of particles.

The theory has technological repercussions and implications regarding “Dark Matter” and “Dark Energy”.

Jacobsen: Have there been any experimental results supporting the theoretical framework, even the basic claim of the existence of chronons?

Vaknin: None. The theoretical framework emerged less than 5 years ago. But there are some technological implications and even an application for a patent in the USA ( https://pdfaiw.uspto.gov/.aiw?PageNum=0&docid=20200130870&IDKey=58760C759BBB )

Jacobsen: As a Field Theory of Time, as the field itself is time or events in spacetime equate to perturbations in this field of time, if true, what does this leave — a la Feynman — for future paths of the development of time asymmetry, chronons, temporal field theoretic considerations, and integrations of the Field Theory of Time into a GUT (Grand Unified Theory) and a ToE (Theory of Everything, which you consider inevitable or have “no doubt” about its arrival — eventually)?

Vaknin: Chronon Field Theory is a GUT/TOE. It is parsimonious (Time is the only entity and also the only principle of action). Watch this: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8AEEwYcWUuc

Every potential in the field, once observed (“collapsed”), is an aspect of physics: mass, momentum, force, particles, symmetry, energy, field coefficients, fine structure constant, gravity, etc.

The theory predicts new particles (for example between muons and bottom quarks); a new, fifth force of nature; a natural connection between electromagnetism and gravity; and many other goodies which can be leveraged into futuristic technologies.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Prof. Vaknin.

Vaknin: Much appreciated.

Previous Electronic ‘Print’ Interviews (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“An Interview with Professor Sam Vaknin on Narcissistic Personality Disorder”

(In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal: June 22, 2020)

“Interview with Sam Vaknin and Christian Sorensen on Narcissism”

(News Intervention: June 23, 2020)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Philosophy of Nothingness”

(News Intervention: January 26, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Narcissism in General”

(News Intervention: January 28, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Cold Therapy (New Treatment Modality)”

(News Intervention: January 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Giftedness and IQ”

(News Intervention: February 2, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Religion”

(News Intervention: February 11, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Science and Reality”

(News Intervention: April 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Gender Wars”

(News Intervention: May 21, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Psychological Growth”

(News Intervention: May 24, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Structure, Function, Society, and Survival”

(News Intervention: May 26, 2022)

Previous Interviews Read by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“How to Become the REAL YOU (Interview, News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 26, 2022)

“Insider View on Narcissism: What Makes Narcissist Tick (News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 29, 2022)

“Curing Your Narcissist (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 31, 2022)

“Genius or Gifted? IQ and Beyond (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: February 3, 2022)

“Thrive: Your Future Path to Growth and Change (News Intervention Interview)”

Prof. Sam Vaknin: May 25, 2022)

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2022-08-21

Prof. Sam Vaknin on Structure, Function, Society, and Survival

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/05/26

Prof. Shmuel “Sam” Vaknin (YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Amazon, LinkedIn, Google Scholar) is the author of Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited (Amazon) and After the Rain: How the West Lost the East (Amazon) as well as many other books and ebooks about topics in psychology, relationships, philosophy, economics, international affairs, and award-winning short fiction. He was Senior Business Correspondent for United Press International (February, 2001 – April, 2003), CEO of Narcissus Publications (April, 1997 – April 2013), Editor-in-Chief of Global Politician (January, 2011 -), a columnist for PopMatters, eBookWeb, Bellaonline, and Central Europe Review, an editor for The Open Directory and Suite101 (Categories: Mental Health and Central East Europe), and a contributor to Middle East Times, a contributing writer to The American Chronicle Media Group, Columnist and Analyst for Nova Makedonija, Fokus, and Kapital, Founding Analyst of The Analyst Network, former president of the Israeli chapter of the Unification Church‘s Professors for World Peace Academy, and served in the Israeli Defense Forces (1979-1982). He has been awarded Israel’s Council of Culture and Art Prize for Maiden Prose (1997), The Rotary Club Award for Social Studies (1976), and the Bilateral Relations Studies Award of the American Embassy in Israel (1978), among other awards. He is Visiting Professor of Psychology, Southern Federal University, Rostov-on-Don, Russia (September, 2017 to present), Professor of Finance and Psychology in SIAS-CIAPS (Centre for International Advanced and Professional Studies) (April, 2012 to present), a Senior Correspondent for New York Daily Sun (January, 2015 – Present), and Columnist for Allied Newspapers Group (January, 2015 – Present). He lives in Skopje, North Macedonia with his wife, Lidija Rangelovska. Here we talk about structure, function, society, and survival.

*Previous interviews listed chronologically after interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Embedment seems like a fundamental of reality described in a prior session, by you. Embedment of the intersubjective agreement and in the agreement upon the collective experiences ascertained as external, objective. Structures interact, functions follow. Internal objects and relations, external processes and dynamics, the mind and the universe structured in particular ways and the physics of the mind bound by the physics of the universe, in which it’s embedded. What defines subjective experience, consciousness, the mind, and awareness?

Prof. Shmuel “Sam” Vaknin: The source of the confusion that permeates the discourse regarding consciousness is the recursive conflation of introspection (an element of self-awareness) and its subject: the mind. The mind observing the mind. This leads, of course, to a vertiginous infinite regression.

To escape this sempiternal, dizzying tunnel, humans posit an arbitrary “self”: the terminal station, where all phenomena converge and come to a halt. There is nothing beyond the self.

Introspection also objectifies the mind. It is as if the mind were an inert, immutable substrate (which, of course, it is not). This is why most people avoid true introspection: the experience is very much like death, like being pinned and mounted.

The physical world is founded on feedback loops very much like introspection. But presumably only humans are capable of meta-transcendence: being aware of their self-awareness. This leads to a feeling of a solipsistic, self-contained estrangement from the world, a kind of observer only mentality.

In a panicky attempt to reconnect, we institute the arbitrary and possibly counterfactual (non-falsifiable) intersubjective agreement. It is undergirded by two assumptions: (1) All human beings are the same; and (2) The physical world is only a part of human reality. The network of minds is the true Universe in which we operate and minds are somehow not fully physical (Cartesian dualism).

Such delusional defenses lead to the emergence of religion, culture, philosophy, and art. But they are counterfactual and brittle.

The truth is that humans and their minds are physical phenomena, subject to the laws of nature. Our complexity gives rise to emergent phenomena such as consciousness, mind, proprioception, and introspection. But we are still mere organisms. Monism is the only rigorous approach to reality.

Jacobsen: What is the relation of structure to function in the most general definition?

Vaknin: Structure is merely the visible reification of function. It is dictated by it. Functions drive the evolution of structures inexorably. More broadly: environments dictate which functions will survive (will prove adaptive) and which will perish. So, structures are reactive to environmental pressures and data mediated via functions and meanings.

We cannot conceive of any process of production without the dubious aid of the Watchmaker’s Metaphor: an artisan; a plan, or program, or procedure; raw materials, or inputs; and the finished product – all four elements distinct from one another. Yet, in nature, this division of labor is rarely true: in the vast majority of cases the raw materials and the program are one and the same and the artisan is missing altogether.

This discrepancy between our intuition and reality is so bothersome that even talented scientists, such as Rupert Sheldrake, were forced to resort to pseudoscience to reconcile it. His concept of “morphic fields” that dictate both the structure and functions of “morphic units” via a kind of “morphic resonance” and are formed by repetition of acts or thoughts is nothing short of mystic: it is unfalsifiable and, therefore, unscientific.

But dismissing Sheldrake’s fields and Jung’s “collective consciousness” leaves important questions unanswered: Why (not how) do stem cells and embryonic cells differentiate and grow into separate, highly-specific organs during the phases of embryogenesis or, later and in some animals, metamorphosis? How do animal colonies, flocks, and shoals form and function? Why and how do crystals “choose” to develop into specific forms rather than others, equally possible and “permissible” under the laws of physics? What is the organizing principle that guides the formation of neural networks and axon pathfinding (guidance)?

In other words: are Forms (and, by extension: functions) somehow predetermined, “out there”, hylomorphically (as Plato, Aristotle, and, to some extent Leibniz suggested)? Are there potentials or “fields” that attract matter and energy and mold them into objects and processes (including mental processes)? And, if so, what decides in favour of certain forms (or “ideals” or “ideas”) and not others? Discarding the religious response (“divine intervention”) and the mystic solutions (such as the “Akashic records”), we find to our consternation that we are left with no answer at all.

To say, as science does, that the Laws of Nature yield “self-organization”, or “self-assembly” is an embarrassing tautology (not to say teleology). To attribute pattern formation to regulatory or inhibitory molecular or chemical cues in the environment, to signalling, cell fates, or, in scientists’ favourite phrase, to a “developmental induction cascade” is to confuse the “how” with the “why” and the “how come”. Stating the obvious as did Adrian Bejan with his Constructal “Law” (which postulates that finite-size systems evolve to provide easier access to imposed currents that flow through them) does nothing to further our fundamental insight of the world.

Spontaneous order via stigmergy and sematectony, emergence (emergentism), connectionism, epiphenomenalism and, more generally, synergetics are even more circular and “magical” propositions: descriptive and phenomenological, they may well amount to mere language constructs. These approaches definitely add nothing to our understanding of the presumably causative chains underlying the sudden appearance of novel, coherent (or correlated), macro, dynamical, supervenient (the system supervenes its components), and ostensive patterns, behaviors, and properties.

We are supposed to believe that, somehow, the system – an abstract notion, wholly in the mind of its human promulgators – interacts with its environment and that context thus dictates the behavior at the micro level. Such models require a leap of faith and a suspension of scientific judgement. In defending them, Peter Corning was reduced to introducing a deus-ex-machina (the consciousness of chess players) through the back door to fully explicate emergence, for instance.

Clearly, to merely re-label and name the mystery does not make it go away. Nor can such fancy verbalizing disguise our fundamental ignorance regarding emergent order in phenomena as varied as bacteria cultures; swarm intelligence; the distribution of vegetation; foams, crystals, and flakes; and chemical and Turing patterns (e.g., the Belousov-Zhabotinsky reaction).

Instances of this propensity of modern thinkers to obscure rather than elucidate abound: Evolutionary Development’s resurrected concept of morphogenetic fields (or units), or the incorporation of lattices in partial differential equations that describe dynamical evolving systems (e.g. in the Swift-Hohenberg equation) are only marginally more rigorous than Sheldrake’s concept of morphic fields in that they fail to convincingly account for, respectively, why cells develop into specific organs even when they are mishandled and transplanted and why hysteresis arises in convection experiments.

What is it that tells cells to develop into a specific part of the organism and, equally important, to not develop into another? What is the source of their deterministic lack of “hesitation” and their directional “decisiveness”? And where does the path dependence spring from in certain physical systems?

Back to our initial question:

Is there anything external or extraneous involved in these mind-boggling processes of morphogenesis and differentiation (except the signalling biochemicals which constitute an integral part of the system?) Genes (DNA), morphogens, adhesion molecules, transcription proteins, the extracellular matrix, and hormones cannot by any stretch of the word be perceived as outside the largely autopoietic systems they control. Environmental chemicals and mechanical stresses are external, but it is difficult to understand why they trigger specific morphogenetic configurations and not others and, even so, they account for a minority of mutations and occurrences.

But isn’t this whole self-contained unfolding reminiscent of a computer? After all: computers do run programs which are resident (internal). But here the parallels break: programs are written by programmers; chips are designed, manufactured, and assembled by armies of humans and machines; and input is provided yet again either by users or by other computing platforms. All these are external and independent agents.

To further complicate matters, “morphic units” (for want of a better term) such as cells or crystals comport themselves variably in identical circumstances. Consider axons for instance: their growth cones (which sense and react to gradients of biochemicals in the extracellular environment) respond differently in different times to the same cues, depending on previous exposure and habituation, timing, and physiological context. So, if there is a guiding principle, a matrix, field, template, lattice or structure “out there”, it must be changing constantly to allow for these idiosyncratic reactions.

Why do we discern forms, patterns, and order everywhere? Because this ability to reorganize our perceptions of reality into predictable moulds and sequences bestows on us untold evolutionary advantages and has an immense survival value. Consequently, we compulsively read configurations and patterns even onto completely random sets of data. The way we perceive holes and other immaterial disruptions as structured entities attests to our “addiction to order and regularity” even where there is only nothing and nothingness.

Why do we all seem to spot essentially the same forms, patterns, and evolving order? Simply because we are possessed of largely identical hardware and software: wetware, our brains. We function well on the basis of these shared perceptions. Even so, the limitations of intersubjectivity mean that we can never prove that we experience the world in the same way: observers may perceive the colour red or the sensation of pain identically or differently. We simply don’t know.

Moreover: beings equipped with other types of processing units, or even different eyes (with a much faster or slower blink rate, or an extended exposure to light), or creatures which use other segments of the electromagnetic spectrum for information gathering are bound to descry the world entirely differently with none of the forms, patterns, and order that we impose on it.

Yet, surely we can construct dictionaries to translate the observations of such alien beings and creatures and to reduce their perceptions, mathematics and physics, geometry, and biology into our own? Maybe so. There is no way to prove that all experiences are reducible and translatable to one another and that all perceptions and concepts can be mapped regardless of the qualities and parameters of the sensory organs that give rise to them in the first place.

Even if they were, the way we experience the Universe would still be vastly different to the subjective, inner landscape of beings or creatures with an unfathomably disparate sensorium, brain, and conceptual space: different to the point of being incommunicable. Even within our species, certain people – the mystics – resort to hermetic and hermeneutically-inaccessible private languages to describe their experiences. With such barriers afoot, we will never be able to ascertain that any translation, reduction, or mapping that we engage in is valid: the subjective dimensions or components of any complete knowledge of the world are as important as the objective ones. Absent operational intersubjectivity, we can never be sure that our knowledge of reality is the same as someone else’s, let alone an extraterrestrial.

Churchfield commented astutely in 1994:

“Defining structure and detecting the emergence of complexity in nature are inherently subjective, though essential, scientific activities. Despite the difficulties, these problems can be analysed in terms of how model-building observers infer from measurements the computational capabilities embedded in non-linear processes. An observer’s notion of what is ordered, what is random, and what is complex in its environment depends directly on its computational resources: the amount of raw measurement data, of memory, and of time available for estimation and inference. The discovery of structure in an environment depends more critically and subtly, though, on how those resources are organized. The descriptive power of the observer’s chosen (or implicit) computational model class, for example, can be an overwhelming determinant in finding regularity in data.”

Still, regardless of what or how we perceive – is there some thing out there? Are we hallucinating when we refer to external entities, bodies, objects, events, and processes?

It is parsimonious to assume that there is an objective reality, independent of any and all observers. But, to account for all its manifestations and for our perceptions of it, such reality must be multifarious. We seem to select the forms and patterns that we see by collapsing a kind of superpositioned uber-wave function of all potential forms and patterns. Indeed, we choose the Universe, we do not observe it.

We do not create it, though (as the Copenhagen interpretation of Quantum Mechanics and some solipsistic epistemologies would have us believe): all the potential forms and patterns (one is almost tempted to say entelechies or monads had it not been for their teleological connotations) do really, independently, objectively and deterministically co-exist both spatially and temporally. The solutions to the wave function with the highest probabilities are the ones we encounter (select) most often. The less probable outcomes we call “mutations” (in biology) or “freak occurrences” (in statistics) or “exceptions” (to rules.)

It stands to reason that bifurcation (catastrophe), singularity, and chaos theories should be able to provide a precise account of the way that we dynamically affect our choices. Indeed, the entire Universe may be conceived as being in states of quenched, or (truer to reality) annealed order with the observers as its random variables. Alternatively, the Universe and the Observer can be viewed as states with differing topological orders and the collapse of the wave function as a phase transition from one to the other. It can be shown that this kind of description naturally gives rise to a Multiverse characterized by topological entropy.

Thus, we are back to where we started: there is no need for “morphic fields” or “morphic resonance” out there because forms and patterns are all “in our head”, mere conventions, akin to Time. All forms and patterns co-exist as potentials and the observer determines which ones are best suited to his needs and predilections, biases and sensory equipment, processor and language (or meta-language).

The observer imposes his choices and selections by ignoring certain potentials (options) and by using the selected forms and patterns as organizing and exegetic principles. The history of science is full of paradigm shifts: collective transitions from one set of forms and patterns to another, adopted as the new preferred frame of reference. Not idealism, therefore (“reality is heavily dependent on our mental activity, perhaps to the point of not having an independent, absolute existence”), but some kind of a theory of filtering: the world is out there and we slice and dice and order it to fit our limitations.

We often see faces where there are none (pareidolia), discern spurious patterns and rules, hear hidden messages in vinyl records played backwards (backmasking), and, since time immemorial encounter shadow persons, spirits, fairies, demons, and ghosts.

Why do we all seem to spot essentially the same forms, patterns, and evolving order? Simply because we are possessed of largely identical hardware and software: wetware, our brains. We function well on the basis of these shared perceptions. Even so, the limitations of intersubjectivity mean that we can never prove that we experience the world in the same way: observers may perceive the colour red or the sensation of pain identically or differently. We simply don’t know.

Complexity arises spontaneously in nature through processes such as critical self-organization. Emergent phenomena are common as are emergent traits, not reducible to basic components, interactions, or properties.

Complexity does not, therefore, imply the existence of a designer or a design. Complexity does not imply the existence of intelligence and sentient beings. On the contrary, complexity usually points towards a natural source and a random origin. Complexity and artificiality are often incompatible.

Confusing artificiality with complexity is not the only terminological conundrum.

Complexity and simplicity are often, and intuitively, regarded as two extremes of the same continuum, or spectrum. Yet, this may be a simplistic view, indeed.

We can resolve these apparent contradictions by closely examining the categories we use.

Perhaps simplicity and complexity are categorical illusions, the outcomes of limitations inherent in our system of symbols (in our language).

Still, these twin notions of simplicity and complexity give rise to numerous theoretical and philosophical complications.

Consider life.

In human (artificial and intelligent) technology, every thing and every action has a function within a “scheme of things”. Goals are set, plans made, designs help to implement the plans.

Thus, ultimately, complexity touches upon very essential questions of who we are, what are we for, how we create, and how we evolve. It is not a simple matter, that…

Jacobsen: How do internal objects and relations of the mind integrate with subjective experience, consciousness, and awareness?

Vaknin: Our subjective experience consists of the interplay between internal objects. Some of the information regarding these interactions makes it into our consciousness or awareness. The rest remains occult.

The experience is not entirely smooth. We are all capable to discerning different “voices” inside our mind (introjects). These dynamics often engender dissonance, even dysfunction.

“Objective” reality intrudes on this inner theatre and modifies its content. But even so, it is distinct from it. We appropriate the world “out there” and immediately convert it into representations and models in our mind in order to be able to manipulate it self-efficaciously.

This ability, to generate an ever-shifting simulation of the world in our minds, has enormous adaptive value. It is far easier to manipulate a symbol space than bulky, unwieldy objects. And the results always conform to reality almost entirely.

Jacobsen: How do the processes and dynamics of the universe operate?

Vaknin: We know a lot about the language we use to describe the workings of the Universe: mathematics (and its implementations in physics and other disciplines). But we are barred from knowing the world itself fully and directly.

Everything is mediated – and therefore interpreted and transformed – via our senses and brain. Additionally, as both Godel and Heisdenberg have famously observed, there are limitations in principle to what we can “know” about reality.

But why is mathematics so successful?

In earlier epochs, people used myths and religious narratives to encode all knowledge, even of a scientific and technological character. Words and sentences are still widely deployed in many branches of the Humanities, the encroachment of mathematical modeling and statistics notwithstanding. Yet, mathematics reigns supreme and unchallenged in the natural sciences. Why is that? What has catapulted mathematics (as distinct from traditional logic) to this august position within three centuries?

Mathematics is a language like no other. Still, it suffers from the drawbacks that afflict other languages. The structure of our language, its inter-relatedness with the world, and its inherent limitations dictate our worldview and determine how we understand, describe and explain Nature and our place in it. Granted, languages are living things and develop constantly (consider slang, or the emergence of infinite numbers theories in mathematics). But, they evolve within a formal grammar and syntax, a logic, a straitjacket that inhibits thinking “outside the box” and renders impossible the faithful perception of “objective” reality.

So, what made mathematics so different and so triumphant?

1. It is a universal, portable, immediately accessible language that requires no translation. Idealists would say that it is intersubjectively shared. This may be because, as Kant and others have suggested, mathematics somehow relates to or is derived from a-priori structures embedded in the human mind.

2. It provides high information density, akin to stenography. Just a few symbols arranged in formulas and equations account for a wealth of experiences and encapsulate numerous observations. Mathematical concepts and symbols do not correspond to material objects or cause them, nor do they alter reality or affect it in any way, shape, or form. One cannot map a mathematical structure or construct or number or concept into the observed universe. This is because mathematics is not confined to describing what is, or what is necessarily so – it also limns what is possible, or provable.

3. Mathematics deals with patterns and laws. It can, therefore, yield predictions. Mathematics deals with forms and structures: some of these are in the material world, others merely in the mind of the mathematician.

4. Mathematics is a flexible, “open-source”, responsive, and expandable language. Consider, for instance, how the introduction of the concept of the infinite and of infinite numbers was accommodated with relative ease despite the controversy and the threat this posed to the very foundations of traditional mathematics – or how mathematics ably progressed to deal with fuzziness and uncertainty.

5. Despite its aforementioned transigence, mathematics is invariant. A mathematical advance, regardless of how arcane or revolutionary, is instantly recognizable as such and can be flawlessly incorporated in the extant body of knowledge. Thus, the fluidity of mathematics does not come at the expense of its coherence and nature.

6. There is a widespread intuition or perception that mathematics is certain because it deals with a-priori knowledge and necessary truths (either objective and “out there”, or mental, in the mind) and because it is aesthetic (like the mind of the Creator, the religious would add).

7. Finally, mathematics is useful: it works. It underlies modern science and technology unerringly and unfailingly. In time, all branches of mathematics, however obscure, prove to possess practical applications.

The octagonal Tower of the Winds in ancient Athens boasted eight sundials on its eight faces. From any given angle, only three of them were visible. Thus, the amount of information gleaned and its subsequent interpretation were determined by the physical limitations of the observer.

Imagine a being with the ability to “see” an infinite number of frames per second. Such a creature would lack the very concepts of motion and sequence. It would perceive both snapshots and video identically. The technology of motion pictures is adapted to our ocular restrictions.

But, would all observers, regardless of corporeal constraints, essentially come up with the same physics once subjected to mathematical transformations?

Imagine a being with an infinite mind (god-like.) Such an entity would never come up with the basic tenets of our perception of reality: time, space, motion, change, force, and identity. Lower down the hierarchy, a being able to perceive the entirety of creation bar one object would be forced to come up with the idea of time to account for his world: it is bound to relate to that one excluded object as new, set apart from the already-known rest of the universe. A being able to perceive only 90% of reality would likely introduce also space as an organizing principle. Finally, much more limited intelligences, such as ours, are bound to come up with a multiplicity of forces to describe their environment.

In my work in physics, I suggest that time and space as well as what we call “forces” (electromagnetic, weak, strong, and gravity) are really all emergent facets of the same underlying essence. While they can be formally described as mediated via particles (quantized) and interacting with each other, they do not exist in any objective sense of the word. They are completely interchangeable and convertible because, deep down, they are one and the same.

These conventions (spacetime and the forces) are mere witnesses to the structural and functional handicaps of our language, our sensory input, and our processing unit, the brain. After all, the Tower of Winds has facets because we can’t perceive it all at once: its facets are mere conveniences, an accommodation of our finiteness, a way of organizing our sense. They are not objective, observer-independent entities.

Jacobsen: How are the physics of the mind – the physical interactions and information exchange through time of the Central Nervous System (C.N.S.) – limited by the processes and dynamics of the universe?

Vaknin: The mind is a part and a manifestation of the Universe. It is subject to all its laws.

The tendency to posit Man as distinct from the world, a mere observer has its roots in religion.

The concept of “nature” is a romantic invention. It was spun by the likes of Jean-Jacques Rousseau in the 18th century as a confabulated utopian contrast to the dystopia of urbanization and Darwinian, ruthless materialism. The traces of this dewy-eyed conception of the “savage”, his alleged harmony and resonance with nature, and his unmolested, unadulterated surroundings can be found in the more malignant forms of fundamentalist environmentalism and in pop-culture (the most recent example of which is the propaganda-laden cinematic extravaganza, “Avatar”).

At the other extreme are religious literalists who regard Man as the crown of creation with complete dominion over nature and the right to exploit its resources unreservedly. Similar, veiled, sentiments can be found among scientists. The Anthropic Principle, for instance, promoted by many outstanding physicists, claims that the nature of the Universe is preordained to accommodate sentient beings – namely, us humans.

Industrialists, politicians and economists have only recently begun paying lip service to sustainable development and to the environmental costs of their policies. Thus, in a way, they bridge the abyss – at least verbally – between these two diametrically opposed forms of fundamentalism. Similarly, the denizens of the West continue to indulge in rampant consumption, but now it is suffused with environmental guilt rather than driven by unadulterated hedonism.

Still, essential dissimilarities between the schools notwithstanding, the dualism of Man vs. Nature is universally acknowledged.

Modern physics – notably the Copenhagen interpretation of quantum mechanics – has abandoned the classic split between (typically human) observer and (usually inanimate) observed. Environmentalists, in contrast, have embraced this discarded worldview wholeheartedly. To them, Man is the active agent operating upon a distinct reactive or passive substrate – i.e., Nature. But, though intuitively compelling, it is a false dichotomy.

Man is, by definition, a part of Nature. His tools are natural and so are his constructions, the built environment. Man interacts with the other elements of Nature and modifies it – but so do all other species. Arguably, bacteria and insects exert on Nature far more influence with farther reaching consequences than Man has ever done. Even an environmentalist like Bill McKibben of “End of Nature” fame, recognize this synergetic confluence. “To Think Like a Mountain” (Aldo Leopold) gradually came to be challenged by “To Think Like a Mall” (Steven Vogel). We should consider the entirety of our surroundings argues Vogel and seek to optimize our environment regardless of its origin: manmade or “natural”.

The mind is a physical phenomenon. Period. There are only physical phenomena in existence.

Jacobsen: Human collectives – e.g., tribes, city centres, nation-states, and such – are composed of these same minds, in interaction, limited by the processes and dynamics of the universe. (Some newer modulations based on developments in digital information processing, e.g., the Internet.) The aforementioned intersubjective agreement becomes an emergent property from human collective arrangements. The human mind reflects a psychological structure with associated functions. The intersubjective agreement, in turn, reflects structures inter-related with emergent functions in collective psychology, and the prior associated functions in individual psychology. This may imply an embedment, where these minds in human collectives represent phenomena statistically interpretable as a singular entity. Not a literal entity, an abstraction for ease of comprehension. If so, these singular entities (phenomena statistically interpretable as such) may be contextualized in a manner similar to the physics of the mind. Even in the reverse direction, the neuronal networks, and associated support cells and structures, neurons, and so on, of the nervous system – and their outputs – become interpreted, contextualized, as a person with a mind. Back to the point, given the variation of human minds and the variants of human collectives, is it reasonable to make the connection of the limitations of human collectives as reflective of the limits in human psychology bound by the universe? A means by which to demarcate boundaries and draw a thread from individual narrative to mass psychology in scientific terms and referents, as seems, among educated people, accepted from parts of the nervous system in interaction to individual narrative. Even though, as you have noted elsewhere, notions of individuality, personality, and the like, are “misleading and counterfactual.”

Vaknin: The newly discovered phenomenon of entraining has taught us that minds literally meld, fuse, merge, and become one in response to regular or rhythmic stimuli (music). Speech may carry the same function in human collectives: to synchronize minds and foster a “hive” consciousness.

Human collectives display all the hallmarks and attributes of individual psychology, but some of these features are taken to the extreme, amplified as it were. For example: in a mob, individuals are far less inhibited and considerably more aggressive and paranoid.

Still, the limitations that apply in individual psychology are equally applicable to mass psychology. Crowds are nothing but individuals writ large.

In collectives, the executive functions of the individual’s mind as well as the regulatory functions and ego boundary functions are relegated to the group. But this transfer does not alter them substantially.

Finally, individual pathologies clearly appear in masses of people. Collectives can be narcissistic or psychopathic, schizoid, paranoid, bipolar, or even borderline.

Jacobsen: How can a scientific approach to the arrangement of human collectives improve human flourishing, individually and collectively, with a fine understanding of human flaws?

Vaknin: Human collectives are, first and foremost human. All our attempts at social engineering failed miserably and many of them resulted in incalculable catastrophes. I am adamantly set against such endeavours. I even consider psychology to be a grandiose pseudo-science.

Jacobsen: What are valid and reliable indices of healthy human collectives akin to individual self-love (not narcissism)?

Vaknin: The secret of healthy, durable collectives is self-love. Not narcissism which is a compensation for self-loathing and an inferiority complex – but profound, all-pervasive self-love.

Self-love is a healthy self-regard and the pursuit of one’s happiness and favorable outcomes. It rests on four pillars:

1. Self-awareness: an intimate, detailed and compassionate knowledge of oneself, a SWOT analysis: strengths, weaknesses, others’ roles, and threats.

2. Self-acceptance: the unconditional embrace of one’s core identity, personality, character, temperament, relationships, experiences, and life circumstances.

3. Self-trust: the conviction that one has one’s best interests in mind, is watching one’s back, and has agency and autonomy: one is not controlled by or dependent upon others in a compromising fashion

4. Self-efficacy: the belief, gleaned from and honed by experience, that one is capable of setting rational, realistic, and beneficial goals and possesses the wherewithal to realize outcomes commensurate with one’s aims.

Self love is the only reliable compass in life. Experience usually comes too late, when its lessons can no longer be implemented because of old age, lost opportunities, and changed circumstances. It is also pretty useless: no two people or situations are the same. But self-love is a rock: a stable, reliable, immovable, and immutable guide and the truest of loyal friends whose only concern in your welfare and contentment.

Jacobsen: Even if ignoring old ideas of flourishing, eudaimonia, and keeping to persistence, what needs to be considered for the survival of the species, human collectives, and of the individual? What are the main threats to human collectives’ survival now?

Vaknin: Volitional Dissonance is when we act in ways which we perceive to be akratic, immoral, or antisocial, rather than phronetic. When we perceive our actions to have been the outcomes of akrasia (weak willed misbehavior contrary to our best judgment) and not of phronesis (good judgment, excellence of character, habits conducive to eudaimonia – a good life – and practical virtue).

So, we need to develop perseverance, determination, critical thinking, cooperation, and quest for excellence (but not superiority via relative positioning).

Regrettably, we are going in the opposite direction with blind alacrity. We are risk-averse to the point of effete timidity; we have microscopic attention spans; we are more gullible than ever (hence the pandemics of conspiracy theories and misinformation); we are atomized and self-sufficient; and we settle for alcohol-imbued entertainment-suffused mediocrity. This doesn’t bode well to the survival of the species.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Prof. Vaknin.

Vaknin: Thank you for showcasing some of my work.

Previous Electronic ‘Print’ Interviews (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“An Interview with Professor Sam Vaknin on Narcissistic Personality Disorder”

(In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal: June 22, 2020)

“Interview with Sam Vaknin and Christian Sorensen on Narcissism”

(News Intervention: June 23, 2020)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Philosophy of Nothingness”

(News Intervention: January 26, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Narcissism in General”

(News Intervention: January 28, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Cold Therapy (New Treatment Modality)”

(News Intervention: January 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Giftedness and IQ”

(News Intervention: February 2, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Religion”

(News Intervention: February 11, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Science and Reality”

(News Intervention: April 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Gender Wars”

(News Intervention: May 21, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Psychological Growth”

(News Intervention: May 24, 2022)

Previous Interviews Read by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“How to Become the REAL YOU (Interview, News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 26, 2022)

“Insider View on Narcissism: What Makes Narcissist Tick (News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 29, 2022)

“Curing Your Narcissist (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 31, 2022)

“Genius or Gifted? IQ and Beyond (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: February 3, 2022)

“Thrive: Your Future Path to Growth and Change (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: May 25, 2022)

Image Credit: Sam Vaknin.

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2022-08-21

Prof. Sam Vaknin on Psychological Growth

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/05/24

*Previous interviews listed chronologically after interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: One fundamental aspect of life is change. All this begins with emotions and motivations. What are the basic emotions and motivations behind human action?

Prof. Shmuel “Sam” Vaknin: Emotions are a subspecies of cognitions. Watch this video to learn more: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=XMqT56189Ag

All emotions are directional (goal-oriented) and induce action. All actions result in change. Therefore, all emotions lead to change and are transformative.

Jacobsen: Why are emotions primary for action?

Vaknin: Non-emotive cognitions are always subject to cognitive distortions and biases, are altered by the action of psychological defense mechanisms, and lead to a departure from reality (impaired reality testing). They are not helpful when it comes to survival. In a way, cognitions are a negative adaptation, from the point of view of evolution.

Emotions are more directly accessible to the mind in a non-intermediated way. They are less prone to mislabelling (in mentally healthy people). They are a more reliable guide and a trustworthy compass. Consequently, emotions are more intimately and immediately linked to action.

Jacobsen: What are the types of changes possible to the human nervous system now, whether introduced experientially, chemically, or otherwise?

Vaknin: The human CNS (Central Nervous System) is largely neuroplastic. It is responsive to repeated identical stimuli and learning. It is closely integrated with all the elements of its dual environments: the internal (for example : the gastrointestinal system) as well as the external. Every single dimension and manifestation of the human experience can be reprogrammed efficaciously using chemical substances, foods, light, sound, words, and other inputs.

Jacobsen: How far could functional reliable manipulation of the structure of the nervous system be taken in this century?

Vaknin: We are on the threshold of being able to create “designer CNS (nervous systems)” which will be responsive to idiosyncratic job descriptions and incorporate adaptations reactive to specific environments.

Simialry, soon we will learn to induce neural growth even in the brain and grow brains in a dish.

Finally, within a few decades, we will be routinely backing up our minds into external storage, the way we are doing with our smartphones today. Applications would be able to tap into these uploaded consciousnesses and data mining them both for commercial and medical purposes.

Jacobsen: There’s a phrase in North America. “You can’t change other people.” Can these changes internally be facilitated by external sources to a reasonable degree, or is the common sense wisdom truly more wisdom than folly?

Vaknin: After age 25, people rarely, if ever, change in fundamental ways. It is folly to try to transform your intimate partner, for example.

But, psychiatry and bioengineering are marching towards artificially engendered changes in personality, character, temperament, and mind. Neural implants, man-machine interfaces (cyborgs), tailored psychedelics and psychotropics, Immersive reality environments like the Metaverse — will all have irreversible impacts on the brains of willing (and unsuspecting) subjects.

Jacobsen: We’ve talked about religion and associated delusions. Some practices within religions induce real, lasting neurological change. If carving out the nonsense, and if keeping the practices, could these practices become part of robust, routine therapeutic techniques/modalities to create changes in patients’/clients’ lives — probably already being done?

Vaknin: Yes, it is already being done. Psychology is a brand of secular religion, of course, not a rigorous science by any stretch of the phrase. It makes use of many mind control and brainwashing techniques long deployed by institutional religions and sects. It leverages delusions and metaphors (ego, anyone ?) the same way the Church does.

Watch this : https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=IJqgR0VuUU8

Jacobsen: Even as a militant agnostic, you note the freethought movements more on the defensive now. What happens to the central nervous systems of true believers in religions throughout life — or in religious conversion experiences — to make religion overwhelmingly enchanting, and reason and science non-starters, in general?

Vaknin: Practice makes neural slaves. Religion, cunningly, insists on routines that consume the believers’s lives and rewire their brains. It becomes literally hardwired. It is not a question of enchantment — more a type of verbal surgery. Faith is an alien implant that snatches the systems of body and mind. It is an infestation with adherence to delusions replacing critical thinking.

Jacobsen: What are the most evidenced means by which to create lasting psychological growth and positive neurological change in one’s life for greater mental wellness in practices, in diets, in activities and hobbies, and the like?

Vaknin: The secret is self-love. Not narcissism which is a compensation for self-loathing and an inferiority complex — but profound, all-pervasive self-love.

Self-love is a healthy self-regard and the pursuit of one’s happiness and favorable outcomes. It rests on four pillars:

1. Self-awareness: an intimate, detailed and compassionate knowledge of oneself, a SWOT analysis: strengths, weaknesses, others’s roles, and threats

2. Self-acceptance: the unconditional embrace of one’s core identity, personality, character, temperament, relationships, experiences, and life circumstances.

Jacobsen: What happens to one’s capabilities to change one’s mind throughout the lifespan?

Vaknin: It diminishes dramatically and falls off a cliff after age 25 when the brain is fully formed. Confirmation bias sets in together with dozens of cognitive distortions (such as the Dunning-Kruger effect and the base rate fallacy). It is hopeless. The adult min dis an echo chamber, fortified behind the firewall of reality-reframing psychological defense mechanisms.

Jacobsen: When is it right or wrong to change one’s mind?

Vaknin: The only rational test is whether a change of mind enhances self-efficacy (is positively adaptive). It is all about survival. If altering your thinking enhances your chances to survive or thrive — you should, regardless of whether you find the transformation palatable or not.

Of course, many would disagree with such blatant utilitarianism. Parents sacrifice their lives for their children, for example. Soldiers and firemen and policemen do the same for the greater public good. On the face of it, these are irrational acts that beg for a seachange of mind.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Vaknin.

Vaknin: As usual, thank you for your thought-provoking questions.

Previous Electronic ‘Print’ Interviews (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“An Interview with Professor Sam Vaknin on Narcissistic Personality Disorder”

(In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal: June 22, 2020)

“Interview with Sam Vaknin and Christian Sorensen on Narcissism”

(News Intervention: June 23, 2020)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Philosophy of Nothingness”

(News Intervention: January 26, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Narcissism in General”

(News Intervention: January 28, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Cold Therapy (New Treatment Modality)”

(News Intervention: January 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Giftedness and IQ”

(News Intervention: February 2, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Religion”

(News Intervention: February 11, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Science and Reality”

(News Intervention: April 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Gender Wars”

(News Intervention: May 21, 2022)

Previous Interviews Read by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“How to Become the REAL YOU (Interview, News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 26, 2022)

“Insider View on Narcissism: What Makes Narcissist Tick (News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 29, 2022)

“Curing Your Narcissist (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 31, 2022)

“Genius or Gifted? IQ and Beyond (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: February 3, 2022)

Image Credit: Sam Vaknin.

2022-08-21

Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Gender Wars

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/05/21

*Previous interviews listed chronologically after interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Sex and gender, you’ve done a decent amount of material on this subject matter. First, what is sex?

Prof. Shmuel “Sam” Vaknin: Sex is biological, albeit fluid. You are born with it, or at least with the corporeal propensity for it. It is a hardware issue.

Jacobsen: Second, what is gender?

Vaknin: Gender is performative, the outcome of socialization, an expression of dominance, and of a gendered personality. It is largely a sociocultural construct grounded in a specific history (see my response to your next question).

Jacobsen: Third, what are other pertinent terms within this context?

Vaknin: “One is not born, but rather becomes, a woman.”, Simone de Beauvoir, The Second Sex (1949)

With same-sex marriage becoming a legal reality throughout the world, many more children are going to be raised by homosexual (gay and lesbian) parents, or even by transgendered or transsexual ones. How is this going to affect the child’s masculinity or femininity?

Is being a gay man less manly than being a heterosexual one? Is a woman who is the outcome of a sex change operation less feminine than her natural-born sisters? In which sense is a “virile” lesbian less of a man than an effeminate heterosexual or homosexual man? And how should we classify and treat bisexuals and asexuals?

What about modern she-breadwinners? All those feminist women in traditional male positions who are as sexually aggressive as men and prone to the same varieties of misconduct (e.g., cheating on their spouses)? Are they less womanly? And are their stay-at-home-dad partners not men enough? How are sex preferences related to gender differentiation? And if one’s sex and genitalia can be chosen and altered at will – why not one’s gender, regardless of one’s natural equipment? Can we decouple gender roles from sexual functions and endowments?

Aren’t the feminist-liberal-emancipated woman and her responsive, transformed male partner as moulded by specific social norms and narratives as their more traditional and conservative counterparts? And when men adapted to the demands of the “new”, post-modernist woman – were they not then rebuffed by that very same female as emasculated and unmanly? What is the source of this gender chaos? Why do people act “modern” while, at heart, they still hark back to erstwhile mores and ethos?

We assume erroneously that some roles are instinctual because, in nature, other species do it, too: parenting and mating come to mind. The discipline of sociobiology encourages us to counterfactually learn from animals about our social functioning. But humans and their societies are so much more complex that there is little we can evince from lobsters, chimpanzees, or gorillas. In nature, there is “male” and “female”, not “man” and “woman” which are learned and acquired gender roles. There is no “mother” and “father”, even among apes – just progenitors. To fulfill any of these demanding and multifarious human functions, we must be exposed to good enough and working role models in childhood and then practice tirelessly through adulthood, constantly reframing and evolving as demands and expectations change with social mores and the times. Evolution in the human species is no longer predominantly genetic – but social and cultural. So, many people simply don’t know how to act as men or as women, as mothers or as fathers. Here, faking it never makes it.

In nature, male and female are distinct. She-elephants are gregarious, he-elephants solitary. Male zebra finches are loquacious – the females mute. Female green spoon worms are 200,000 times larger than their male mates. These striking differences are biological – yet they lead to differentiation in social roles and skill acquisition.

Alan Pease, author of a book titled “Why Men Don’t Listen and Women Can’t Read Maps”, believes that women are spatially-challenged compared to men. The British firm, Admiral Insurance, conducted a study of half a million claims. They found that “women were almost twice as likely as men to have a collision in a car park, 23 percent more likely to hit a stationary car, and 15 percent more likely to reverse into another vehicle” (Reuters).

Yet gender “differences” are often the outcomes of bad scholarship. Consider Admiral Insurance’s data. As Britain’s Automobile Association (AA) correctly pointed out – women drivers tend to make more short journeys around towns and shopping centers and these involve frequent parking. Hence their ubiquity in certain kinds of claims. Regarding women’s alleged spatial deficiency, in Britain, girls have been outperforming boys in scholastic aptitude tests – including geometry and maths – since 1988.

In an Op-Ed published by the New York Times on January 23, 2005, Olivia Judson cited this example

“Beliefs that men are intrinsically better at this or that have repeatedly led to discrimination and prejudice, and then they’ve been proved to be nonsense. Women were thought not to be world-class musicians. But when American symphony orchestras introduced blind auditions in the 1970’s – the musician plays behind a screen so that his or her gender is invisible to those listening – the number of women offered jobs in professional orchestras increased. Similarly, in science, studies of the ways that grant applications are evaluated have shown that women are more likely to get financing when those reading the applications do not know the sex of the applicant.”

On the other wing of the divide, Anthony Clare, a British psychiatrist and author of “On Men” wrote:

“At the beginning of the 21st century it is difficult to avoid the conclusion that men are in serious trouble. Throughout the world, developed and developing, antisocial behavior is essentially male. Violence, sexual abuse of children, illicit drug use, alcohol misuse, gambling, all are overwhelmingly male activities. The courts and prisons bulge with men. When it comes to aggression, delinquent behavior, risk taking and social mayhem, men win gold.”

Men also mature later, die earlier, are more susceptible to infections and most types of cancer, are more likely to be dyslexic, to suffer from a host of mental health disorders, such as Attention Deficit Hyperactivity Disorder (ADHD), and to commit suicide.

In her book, “Stiffed: The Betrayal of the American Man”, Susan Faludi describes a crisis of masculinity following the breakdown of manhood models and work and family structures in the last five decades. In the film “Boys don’t Cry”, a teenage girl binds her breasts and acts the male in a caricatured relish of stereotypes of virility. Being a man is merely a state of mind, the movie implies.

But what does it really mean to be a “male” or a “female”? Are gender identity and sexual preferences genetically determined? Can they be reduced to one’s sex? Or are they amalgams of biological, social, and psychological factors in constant interaction? Are they immutable lifelong features or dynamically evolving frames of self-reference?

In rural northern Albania, until recently, in families with no male heir, women could choose to forego sex and childbearing, alter their external appearance and “become” men and the patriarchs of their clans, with all the attendant rights and obligations.

In the aforementioned New York Times Op-Ed, Olivia Judson opines:

“Many sex differences are not, therefore, the result of his having one gene while she has another. Rather, they are attributable to the way particular genes behave when they find themselves in him instead of her. The magnificent difference between male and female green spoon worms, for example, has nothing to do with their having different genes: each green spoon worm larva could go either way. Which sex it becomes depends on whether it meets a female during its first three weeks of life. If it meets a female, it becomes male and prepares to regurgitate; if it doesn’t, it becomes female and settles into a crack on the sea floor.”

Yet, certain traits attributed to one’s sex are surely better accounted for by the demands of one’s environment, by cultural factors, the process of socialization, gender roles, and what George Devereux called “ethnopsychiatry” in “Basic Problems of Ethnopsychiatry” (University of Chicago Press, 1980). He suggested to divide the unconscious into the id (the part that was always instinctual and unconscious) and the “ethnic unconscious” (repressed material that was once conscious). The latter is mostly molded by prevailing cultural mores and includes all our defense mechanisms and most of the superego.

So, how can we tell whether our sexual role is mostly in our blood or in our brains?

The scrutiny of borderline cases of human sexuality – notably the transgendered or intersexed – can yield clues as to the distribution and relative weights of biological, social, and psychological determinants of gender identity formation.

The results of a study conducted by Uwe Hartmann, Hinnerk Becker, and Claudia Rueffer-Hesse in 1997 and titled “Self and Gender: Narcissistic Pathology and Personality Factors in Gender Dysphoric Patients”, published in the “International Journal of Transgenderism”, “indicate significant psychopathological aspects and narcissistic dysregulation in a substantial proportion of patients.” Are these “psychopathological aspects” merely reactions to underlying physiological realities and changes? Could social ostracism and labeling have induced them in the “patients”?

The authors conclude:

“The cumulative evidence of our study … is consistent with the view that gender dysphoria is a disorder of the sense of self as has been proposed by Beitel (1985) or Pfäfflin (1993). The central problem in our patients is about identity and the self in general and the transsexual wish seems to be an attempt at reassuring and stabilizing the self-coherence which in turn can lead to a further destabilization if the self is already too fragile. In this view the body is instrumentalized to create a sense of identity and the splitting symbolized in the hiatus between the rejected body-self and other parts of the self is more between good and bad objects than between masculine and feminine.”

Freud, Kraft-Ebbing, and Fliess suggested that we are all bisexual to a certain degree. As early as 1910, Dr. Magnus Hirschfeld argued, in Berlin, that absolute genders are “abstractions, invented extremes”. The consensus today is that one’s sexuality is, mostly, a psychological construct which reflects gender role orientation.

Joanne Meyerowitz, a professor of history at Indiana University and the editor of The Journal of American History observes, in her recently published tome, “How Sex Changed: A History of Transsexuality in the United States”, that the very meaning of masculinity and femininity is in constant flux.

Transgender activists, says Meyerowitz, insist that gender and sexuality represent “distinct analytical categories”. The New York Times wrote in its review of the book: “Some male-to-female transsexuals have sex with men and call themselves homosexuals. Some female-to-male transsexuals have sex with women and call themselves lesbians. Some transsexuals call themselves asexual.”

So, it is all in the mind, you see.

This would be taking it too far. A large body of scientific evidence points to the genetic and biological underpinnings of sexual behavior and preferences.

The German science magazine, “Geo”, reported recently that the males of the fruit fly “drosophila melanogaster” switched from heterosexuality to homosexuality as the temperature in the lab was increased from 19 to 30 degrees Celsius. They reverted to chasing females as it was lowered.

The brain structures of homosexual sheep are different to those of straight sheep, a study conducted recently by the Oregon Health & Science University and the U.S. Department of Agriculture Sheep Experiment Station in Dubois, Idaho, revealed. Similar differences were found between gay men and straight ones in 1995 in Holland and elsewhere. The preoptic area of the hypothalamus was larger in heterosexual men than in both homosexual men and straight women.

According an article, titled “When Sexual Development Goes Awry”, by Suzanne Miller, published in the September 2000 issue of the “World and I”, various medical conditions give rise to sexual ambiguity. Congenital adrenal hyperplasia (CAH), involving excessive androgen production by the adrenal cortex, results in mixed genitalia. A person with the complete androgen insensitivity syndrome (AIS) has a vagina, external female genitalia and functioning, androgen-producing, testes – but no uterus or fallopian tubes.

People with the rare 5-alpha reductase deficiency syndrome are born with ambiguous genitalia. They appear at first to be girls. At puberty, such a person develops testicles and his clitoris swells and becomes a penis. Hermaphrodites possess both ovaries and testicles (both, in most cases, rather undeveloped). Sometimes the ovaries and testicles are combined into a chimera called ovotestis.

Most of these individuals have the chromosomal composition of a woman together with traces of the Y, male, chromosome. All hermaphrodites have a sizable penis, though rarely generate sperm. Some hermaphrodites develop breasts during puberty and menstruate. Very few even get pregnant and give birth.

Anne Fausto-Sterling, a developmental geneticist, professor of medical science at Brown University, and author of “Sexing the Body”, postulated, in 1993, a continuum of 5 sexes to supplant the current dimorphism: males, merms (male pseudohermaphrodites), herms (true hermaphrodites), ferms (female pseudohermaphrodites), and females.

Intersexuality (hermpahroditism) is a natural human state. We are all conceived with the potential to develop into either sex. The embryonic developmental default is female. A series of triggers during the first weeks of pregnancy places the fetus on the path to maleness.

In rare cases, some women have a male’s genetic makeup (XY chromosomes) and vice versa. But, in the vast majority of cases, one of the sexes is clearly selected. Relics of the stifled sex remain, though. Women have the clitoris as a kind of symbolic penis. Men have breasts (mammary glands) and nipples.

The Encyclopedia Britannica 2003 edition describes the formation of ovaries and testes thus:

“In the young embryo a pair of gonads develop that are indifferent or neutral, showing no indication whether they are destined to develop into testes or ovaries. There are also two different duct systems, one of which can develop into the female system of oviducts and related apparatus and the other into the male sperm duct system. As development of the embryo proceeds, either the male or the female reproductive tissue differentiates in the originally neutral gonad of the mammal.”

Yet, sexual preferences, genitalia and even secondary sex characteristics, such as facial and pubic hair are first order phenomena. Can genetics and biology account for male and female behavior patterns and social interactions (“gender identity”)? Can the multi-tiered complexity and richness of human masculinity and femininity arise from simpler, deterministic, building blocks?

Sociobiologists would have us think so.

For instance: the fact that we are mammals is astonishingly often overlooked. Most mammalian families are composed of mother and offspring. Males are peripatetic absentees. Arguably, high rates of divorce and birth out of wedlock coupled with rising promiscuity merely reinstate this natural “default mode”, observes Lionel Tiger, a professor of anthropology at Rutgers University in New Jersey. That three quarters of all divorces are initiated by women tends to support this view.

Furthermore, gender identity is determined during gestation, claim some scholars.

Milton Diamond of the University of Hawaii and Dr. Keith Sigmundson, a practicing psychiatrist, studied the much-celebrated John/Joan case. An accidentally castrated normal male was surgically modified to look female, and raised as a girl but to no avail. He reverted to being a male at puberty.

His gender identity seems to have been inborn (assuming he was not subjected to conflicting cues from his human environment). The case is extensively described in John Colapinto’s tome “As Nature Made Him: The Boy Who Was Raised as a Girl”.

HealthScoutNews cited a study published in the November 2002 issue of “Child Development”. The researchers, from City University of London, found that the level of maternal testosterone during pregnancy affects the behavior of neonatal girls and renders it more masculine. “High testosterone” girls “enjoy activities typically considered male behavior, like playing with trucks or guns”. Boys’ behavior remains unaltered, according to the study.

Yet, other scholars, like John Money, insist that newborns are a “blank slate” as far as their gender identity is concerned. This is also the prevailing view. Gender and sex-role identities, we are taught, are fully formed in a process of socialization which ends by the third year of life. The Encyclopedia Britannica 2003 edition sums it up thus:

“Like an individual’s concept of his or her sex role, gender identity develops by means of parental example, social reinforcement, and language. Parents teach sex-appropriate behavior to their children from an early age, and this behavior is reinforced as the child grows older and enters a wider social world. As the child acquires language, he also learns very early the distinction between “he” and “she” and understands which pertains to him- or herself.”

So, which is it – nature or nurture? There is no disputing the fact that our sexual physiology and, in all probability, our sexual preferences are determined in the womb. Men and women are different – physiologically and, as a result, also psychologically.

Society, through its agents – foremost amongst which are family, peers, and teachers – represses or encourages these genetic propensities. It does so by propagating “gender roles” – gender-specific lists of alleged traits, permissible behavior patterns, and prescriptive morals and norms. Our “gender identity” or “sex role” is shorthand for the way we make use of our natural genotypic-phenotypic endowments in conformity with social-cultural “gender roles”.

Inevitably as the composition and bias of these lists change, so does the meaning of being “male” or “female”. Gender roles are constantly redefined by tectonic shifts in the definition and functioning of basic social units, such as the nuclear family and the workplace. The cross-fertilization of gender-related cultural memes renders “masculinity” and “femininity” fluid concepts.

One’s sex equals one’s bodily equipment, an objective, finite, and, usually, immutable inventory. But our endowments can be put to many uses, in different cognitive and affective contexts, and subject to varying exegetic frameworks. As opposed to “sex” – “gender” is, therefore, a socio-cultural narrative. Both heterosexual and homosexual men ejaculate. Both straight and lesbian women climax. What distinguishes them from each other are subjective introjects of socio-cultural conventions, not objective, immutable “facts”.

In “The New Gender Wars”, published in the November/December 2000 issue of “Psychology Today”, Sarah Blustain sums up the “bio-social” model proposed by Mice Eagly, a professor of psychology at Northwestern University and a former student of his, Wendy Wood, now a professor at the Texas A&M University:

“Like (the evolutionary psychologists), Eagly and Wood reject social constructionist notions that all gender differences are created by culture. But to the question of where they come from, they answer differently: not our genes but our roles in society. This narrative focuses on how societies respond to the basic biological differences – men’s strength and women’s reproductive capabilities – and how they encourage men and women to follow certain patterns.

‘If you’re spending a lot of time nursing your kid’, explains Wood, ‘then you don’t have the opportunity to devote large amounts of time to developing specialized skills and engaging tasks outside of the home’. And, adds Eagly, ‘if women are charged with caring for infants, what happens is that women are more nurturing. Societies have to make the adult system work [so] socialization of girls is arranged to give them experience in nurturing’.

According to this interpretation, as the environment changes, so will the range and texture of gender differences. At a time in Western countries when female reproduction is extremely low, nursing is totally optional, childcare alternatives are many, and mechanization lessens the importance of male size and strength, women are no longer restricted as much by their smaller size and by child-bearing. That means, argue Eagly and Wood, that role structures for men and women will change and, not surprisingly, the way we socialize people in these new roles will change too. (Indeed, says Wood, ‘sex differences seem to be reduced in societies where men and women have similar status,’ she says. If you’re looking to live in more gender-neutral environment, try Scandinavia.)”

Jacobsen: You wrote and spoke on the ‘gender wars,’ as such. What is the gender war, or are the gender wars?

Vaknin: The gender wars started 150 years ago, with the suffragettes and the first wave of feminism. Women acquired access to jobs, financial independence, and increasing political power. Men resented this relinquishment of traditionally male powers and the incursions on their turf. But the process of gaining equality and equity was inexorable.

Women are better educated than men and better suited for the modern, networked economy. They earn more than men do in some age groups. They are gaining ground in business (where one fifth of CEOs are female) and in politics.

Today, men are saying:

Women! You are too independent! I am terrified that you will no longer tolerate my abuse and my infantilism, you will decline to serve me, you will abandon me, and I will lose you. You are too well-educated. I feel inferior, inadequate, and outcompeted in the workplace. You sleep around with strangers and friends alike. It makes me feel like a statistic, a number, a mere conquest, objectified, not special, insecure, and unsafe. In short: you are too much like the men of yore!

It is actually a rational choice to not form a relationship with promiscuous people. They tend to be way more prone to serial cheating and to breakups or divorces.

Ask any man: women went too far. Too far not in terms of rights or equal pay, but in terms of militancy (zero sum game, men as the enemy); aggressiveness (reactance, defiance, in your face); usurpation of masculine traits, behaviors, norms, and roles; and raunch culture (gratuitous, “empowering” promiscuity).

Now, men are hitting back:

Domestic violence laws were abrogated in Russia; women are again confined to home under a male guardian in Afghanistan; Roe vs. Wade (the right to abortion) is being repealed in the USA; and toxic masculinity is spreading like wildfire, especially in online communities collectively known as the manosphere (MGTOW, incels, redpillers, dating coaches).

Men have one trump card left: intimate relationships, including physical intimacy (sex) where they are largely irreplaceable.

The “stalled revolution” means that when it comes to sexual mores, marriage, relationships, and family, men remain stuck in a Victorian England mindset while women have progressed into a feminist 21st century.

Confronted with this abyss, women face a stark choice:

1. They can give up on men altogether and go it alone while assuming masculine traits and roles; or

2. They can regress and subject themselves to male dominance and objectification in raunch culture and in supposedly “intimate” relationships.

There is no other alternative. Men won’t budge. Men are fighting back. About one third of all men are celibate or lifelong singles.

As things stand now, most men are merely taking advantage of women’s newfangled sex positivity and then walk away from casual sex, unscathed.

Women are paying the price of this male sexual opportunism in terms of heartbreak, bad sex, childlessness, loneliness, and career or financial damage.

Even as they make strides in the real world, when it comes to intimate relationships, women are more abused and disempowered than ever. And men just joyfully roam around, humping dozens of throwaway women in the promiscuous Disneyland of post-modernity.

Jacobsen: Does this antipathy, even outright hatred, signal a threat to the species in some ways? In that, if, traditionally speaking, couples can’t negotiate the modern landscape of inter-relations for the creation of a safe and nurturing environment for the next generations, then the next generations may simply become an afterthought, something dismissed, if not outright discarded from individual life plans.

Vaknin: In most industrial societies, so few couples are having children and they are having so few offspring that they fail to meet the replacement rate (the number of the dead exceeds the number of the newborns). Many modern men and women remain purposefully childless, prioritizing career, self-actualization, and fun way above procreation.

The gender wars are by far the greatest threat to the survival of the species, far greater than climate change.

Jacobsen: Natality rates globally have been declining for decades. Different regions of the world have different pressing concerns in regards to birth rates. In some regions, there are too many mouths to feed with too few resources to commit to them, sufficiently. In other regions, the rates of newborns are well below the proverbial replacement rate of 2.1 children per woman. In short, some regions need more children, while others need fewer, for a balanced, sustainable growth pyramid generation after generation.

Vaknin: To sustain the global economic structure, we need to have more children. The population in the developed world is aging fast and safety nets such as pension schemes (social security) and healthcare are already technically insolvent. Immigration is only a partial solution because it strains the social fabric and results in conflicts.

The Black Death – an epidemic of bubonic plague in the 14^th century – decimated between one third and one half of Europe’s population, yet it was the best thing to have happened to Mankind in many centuries. The depleted number of survivors shared in the vast fortunes of the deceased, laying the foundation for modern, entrepreneurial capitalism; the added physical spaces and vacancies made available via the devastation of numerous households spurred urban renewal and magisterial architecture on an unprecedented scale; the crumbling authority of the Church and its minions led to reformist religious stirrings and the emergence of the Renaissance in arts and sciences; labourers and women saw their standing in society much improved as the scarcity of workforce rendered them much sought-after commodities.

Seven centuries later, an “inflation of humans” led to an ineluctable devaluation and may have erased at least the latter of these achievements: wage growth. Wages have stagnated in direct correlation with the explosion in global population. The social fabric itself has been rent by the mounting pressure of an annual net growth in population which exceeds the citizenry of Germany: interpersonal relationships, social organizational units, tolerant co-existence, peaceful multiculturalism and diversity have all crumbled worldwide.

So, is the solution to our global and escalating woes another pandemic?

The latest census in Ukraine revealed an apocalyptic drop of 10% in its population – from 52.5 million three decades ago to a mere 45.7 million a decade ago. Demographers predict a precipitous decline of one third in Russia’s impoverished, inebriated, disillusioned, and ageing citizenry. Births in many countries in the rich, industrialized West are below the replacement rate. These bastions of conspicuous affluence are shrivelling.

Scholars and decision-makers – once terrified by the Malthusian dystopia of a “population bomb” – are more sanguine now. Advances in agricultural technology eradicated hunger even in teeming places like India and China. And then there is the old idea of progress: birth rates tend to decline with higher education levels and growing incomes. Family planning has had resounding successes in places as diverse as Thailand, China, and western Africa.

Some intellectuals even regard the increase in the world’s population as a form of “quantitative diversification”: as technology homogenizes cultures, societies, and civilizations everywhere, the risks associated with such a monoculture grow. Homogeneous populations are less adaptable and, therefore, less fit for survival. The only defense lies in the sheer force of numbers. The greater the number of people, goes this strain of thinking, the more varied the human species, such variety and variation being the sole guarantors and generators of adaptability and, therefore, survival.

In the near past, fecundity used to compensate for infant mortality. As the latter declined – so did the former. Children are means of production in many destitute countries. Hence the inordinately large families of the past – a form of insurance against the economic outcomes of the inevitable demise of some of one’s off-spring.

Yet, despite these trends, the world’s populace is augmented by 130 million people annually. All of them are born to the younger inhabitants of the more penurious corners of the Earth. There were only 1 billion people alive in 1804. The number doubled a century later.

But our last billions – the sixth and the seventh – required only 19 fertile years. The entire population of Germany is added every half a decade to both India and China. Clearly, Mankind’s growth is out of control, as affirmed in the 1994 Cairo International Conference on Population and Development.

Dozens of millions of people regularly starve – many of them to death. In only one corner of the Earth – southern Africa – food aid is the sole subsistence of entire countries. More than 18 million people in Zambia, Malawi, and Angola survived on charitable donations in 1992. More than 10 million expect the same this year, among them the emaciated denizens of erstwhile food exporter, Zimbabwe.

According to Medecins Sans Frontiere, AIDS kills 3 million people a year, Tuberculosis another 2 million. Malaria decimates 2 people every minute. More than 14 million people fall prey to parasitic and infectious diseases every year – 90% of them in the developing countries.

Millions emigrate every year in search of a better life. These massive shifts are facilitated by modern modes of transportation. But, despite these tectonic relocations – and despite famine, disease, and war, the classic Malthusian regulatory mechanisms – the depletion of natural resources – from arable land to water – is undeniable and gargantuan.

Our pressing environmental issues – global warming, water stress, salinization, desertification, deforestation, pollution, loss of biological diversity – and our ominous social ills – crime at the forefront – are traceable to one, politically incorrect, truth:

There are too many of us. We are way too numerous. The population load is unsustainable. We, the survivors, would be better off if others were to perish. Should population growth continue unabated – we are all doomed.

Doomed to what?

Numerous Cassandras and countless Jeremiads have been falsified by history. With proper governance, scientific research, education, affordable medicines, effective family planning, and economic growth, this planet can support even 10-12 billion people. We are not at risk of physical extinction and never have been.

What is hazarded is not our life – but our quality of life. As any insurance actuary will attest, we are governed by statistical datasets.

Consider this single fact:

About 1% of the population suffer from the perniciously debilitating and all-pervasive mental health disorder, schizophrenia. At the beginning of the 20th century, there were 16.5 million schizophrenics – nowadays there are 64 million. Their impact on friends, family, and colleagues is exponential – and incalculable. This is not a merely quantitative leap. It is a qualitative phase transition.

Or this:

Large populations lead to the emergence of high density urban centers. It is inefficient to cultivate ever smaller plots of land. Surplus manpower moves to centers of industrial production. A second wave of internal migrants caters to their needs, thus spawning a service sector. Network effects generate excess capital and a virtuous cycle of investment, employment, and consumption ensues.

But over-crowding breeds violence (as has been demonstrated in behavioral sink experiments with mice). The sheer numbers involved serve to magnify and amplify social anomies, deviate behaviour, and antisocial traits. In the city, there are more criminals, more perverts, more victims, more immigrants, and more racists per square mile.

Moreover, only a planned and orderly urbanization is desirable. The blights that pass for cities in most third world countries are the outgrowth of neither premeditation nor method. These mega-cities are infested with non-disposed of waste and prone to natural catastrophes and epidemics.

No one can vouchsafe for a “critical mass” of humans, a threshold beyond which the species will implode and vanish.

Jacobsen: What are the root dynamics of the gender wars in time, in global cultures, in collective psychologies in the early 21^st century?

Vaknin: The gender war is no different to any other conflict between erstwhile masters and their emancipated chattel or property. To this very day, whites are in pitched battles with blacks (their former slaves) and not only in the USA.

Women were domestic slaves. Then they leveraged the enlightenment and the age of revolutions to unshackle themselves in every way: sexually, politically, financially, and psychologically. Their former owners are incensed and are trying to turn back the wheel. Nothing new under the sun.

Jacobsen: What are the possible paths ahead for the genders and the sexes amid this conceptive whirlpool of personal and collective identities? What are the solutions? What are things to do now to rectify the bitterness, contempt, irascibility, and antagonisms for the sustainability of global culture reliant upon new generations of human beings? We all leave the stage, eventually. Even though, the play signifies nothing and is, indeed, written by an idiot.

Vaknin: I see only two possible trajectories:

We renounce the contentious and adversarial organizing principles of gender and sex and allow for complete fluidity within a unigender; or
We revert to the 1950s in terms of more or less rigid gender roles and sexual scripts.

The most likely scenario is that some part of the population will opt for the former and others will adopt the latter. Whether these two camps could co-exist peacefully remains to be seen.

There is nothing much we can do but wait. The gender war is a part of a way more massive upheaval in human affairs. For the first time in human history, all social institutions and mores are crumbling simultaneously. Our hermeneutic narratives have been rendered useless.

When the dust settles, we will face a new world, based on the radical, technology-empowered self-sufficiency of the individual. Society and relationships – intimate or otherwise – may well be a thing of the past: redundant, obsolete, and burdensome.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Vaknin.

Vaknin: Thank you again for having me.

Previous Electronic ‘Print’ Interviews (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“An Interview with Professor Sam Vaknin on Narcissistic Personality Disorder”

(In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal: June 22, 2020)

“Interview with Sam Vaknin and Christian Sorensen on Narcissism”

(News Intervention: June 23, 2020)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Philosophy of Nothingness”

(News Intervention: January 26, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Narcissism in General”

(News Intervention: January 28, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Cold Therapy (New Treatment Modality)”

(News Intervention: January 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Giftedness and IQ”

(News Intervention: February 2, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Religion”

(News Intervention: February 11, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Science and Reality”

(News Intervention: April 30, 2022)

Previous Interviews Read by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“How to Become the REAL YOU (Interview, News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 26, 2022)

“Insider View on Narcissism: What Makes Narcissist Tick (News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 29, 2022)

“Curing Your Narcissist (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 31, 2022)

“Genius or Gifted? IQ and Beyond (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: February 3, 2022)

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2022-08-21

Prof. Benoit Desjardins on U.S. Medical Practice

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen and Dr. Benoit Desjardins

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/05/06

Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI is an Ivy League academic physician and scientist at the University of Pennsylvania. He is member of several scientific societies and a Fellow of the American College of Radiology and of the American Heart Association. He is the co-Founder of the Arrhythmia Imaging Research (AIR) lab at Penn. His research is funded by the National Institute of Health. He is an international leader in three different fields: cardiovascular imaging, artificial intelligence and cybersecurity. He is a member of the most elite high IQ societies in the world.

We have been engaged in a series of interviews with Prof. Desjardins at www.in-sightpublishing.com. Desjardins mentioned the major concerns with the medical system and the treatment of physicians in the United States. This became a longer conversation and evolved into a separate series. Here we discuss medical practice in the United States.

This interview represents Dr Desjardins’ opinion, combined to the current content of the published medical literature, and not necessarily the opinion of his employers.

1 – On science and medicine

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start by defining terms, what is science?

Dr. Benoit Desjardins: From Webster, science is the knowledge about general truths or general laws obtained and tested by the scientific method. The scientific method provides a set of principles for the pursuit of knowledge. It involves formulating a problem, collecting data by observation and experimentation, and formulating and testing hypotheses.

Jacobsen: What is medicine?

Desjardins: From Webster, medicine is both a science and an art, dealing with health maintenance and the prevention, alleviation, or cure of disease. It used to be primarily an art, but it has become firmly based on science as science evolved.

Jacobsen: What is a physician? How does a physician differ from other terms of professionals within medicine?

Desjardins: A physician is someone educated, experienced, and licensed to practice the science of medicine. The difference between physicians and other healthcare professionals is becoming less clear with time, as other professionals take on more and more of the responsibilities of physicians.

Jacobsen: What are the ultimate limits of science as applied to medicine?

Desjardins: Nobody knows. Science progresses constantly, and new scientific discoveries that positively impact medicine are produced every year. There are often tradeoffs limiting the applicability of some scientific advances to medicine. Let’s take an example from my field. There have been advances in cross-sectional imaging to image humans at extremely high spatial resolution. Flat-plate CT scanners can do that but require more radiation, which is a limiting factor for human imaging. As a result, they are mainly used to image small animals.

2 – On practicing medicine in the U.S.

Jacobsen: What are the values of the medical field within the United States? How does this differ from other fields?

Desjardins: There are values related to the patient, including compassion, respect, and justice. Other values are related to the physician, including a commitment to excellence, integrity, and ethics. Physicians take a Hippocratic Oath and swear to uphold specific ethical standards. It differs from other fields. Healthcare is, however, a business in the U.S., which creates conflicts with some of its values. For example, many medical practices start with noble goals, trying to help their community with devoted, caring physicians who will do whatever is best to help their patients. These practices sometimes get bought by venture capital firms. After the purchase, physicians become indentured servants, forced to perform massive amounts of work (e.g., seeing one patient every five minutes). They are forced to do whatever is best to maximize shareholders’ and investors’ profits at the expense of quality of care and consequences to physicians’ health.

Jacobsen: Venture capital firms decided to make medicine a business. Is there a documented timeline?

Desjardins: Venture capital firms started buying physicians and medical practices in the late 1980s, a growing phenomenon.

Jacobsen: When do venture capital firms decide to buy them?

Desjardins: I am not familiar with the field of business, but they seem to buy them when they are profitable or have the potential to become profitable from the exploitation of physicians.

Jacobsen: Since medicine became more of a business than less of one, what are some choices the businesses made to appeal to patients with higher incomes?

Desjardins: Some hospitals offer entire floors reserved for wealthy patients, with hotel-like amenities in their rooms and increased access to services and physicians, a limousine drive from the airport, and lodging for patients’ families.

Jacobsen: How do CEOs and others interact with physicians?

Desjardins: CEOs have minimal direct interactions with physicians. They often provide mass emails to their entire medical center staff updating everyone on current issues, such as the pandemic or new initiatives, the hospital system’s latest national rankings, or financial health.

Jacobsen: Why is American medicine terrible at outcomes?

Desjardins: American medicine is known as the “great outlier”: it is the worst healthcare system among high-income countries (Commonwealth Funds) but at the same time is the most expensive healthcare system in the world. It has a high infant mortality rate, low life expectancy at age 60, and high preventable mortality. Its infant mortality rate is comparable to some third-world countries, like Sri Lanka (Worldbank). This poor performance at extremely high costs is due to multiple factors. It includes a minimal focus on preventive medicine, emphasis on fixing catastrophic health outcomes after years of neglect, the practice of defensive medicine, and the business approach to healthcare. The traumatic nature of life in America, and the high poverty rate, have significant harmful effects on the population’s health.

Jacobsen: How are these expectations from American patients coming to American physicians with sophisticated ignorance, when ignorance masquerading as knowledge comes to blows with evidence-based expertise?

Desjardins: Physicians are required by their Hippocratic Oath to serve their patients as best as possible. They use an evidence-based approach to healthcare, which is good medicine that can sometimes lead to bad outcomes. The latter often leads to patients physically harming or suing their physician, as patients are too ignorant to realize that good medicine sometimes leads to bad outcomes. Physicians can respond to this situation in two ways. First, they can continue using an evidence-based approach for healthcare until they either get harmed by their patient or more likely lose their practice license due to too many frivolous lawsuits against them. Or they can adapt to an ignorant, scientifically illiterate society by doing “defensive” medicine. The latter leads to overutilization of medical resources, patient harm, and increased U.S. healthcare expenses.

Jacobsen: What about the lower strata of the educational and authority hierarchy in medical facilities? I mean nurses and the like. How is their education? Are they given the same quality of education? How does their education impact the quality of care for patients?

Desjardins: Every member of the healthcare field receives the best possible quality of education addressing the tasks they are expected to perform, ensuring the highest level of quality in healthcare at different levels. Problems arise when healthcare workers lower in the hierarchy are given the authority to perform duties and actions for which they have not been trained to decrease healthcare costs. It has led to patients’ deaths.

3 – On American patients

Jacobsen: How are values and preferences of cultures impacting the expectations from physicians by patients in the United States?

Desjardins: I am originally from Canada. Canadians have a more socialist mindset, think about the greater good, and are more reasonable. Americans have a more individualistic mindset. They will not tolerate waiting lists like in Canada. If they cannot see their physicians rapidly or get the device or the operations they want, they get angry and can become litigious. They will expect physicians to spend millions on extending grandma’s life by a few weeks. They have gone to court to prevent unplugging of brain-dead patients (remember Terri Schiavo), with brain dead U.S. lawmakers forcing doctors to keep these patients on life support.

Jacobsen: How are American patients different than others?

Desjardins: They have no personal accountability. They do not take care of themselves. They can chain-smoke for 50 years and then blame their physician if they develop cancer. They expect their physicians to be at their service 24/7/365, an unrealistic expectation, to work all the time without getting tired, and never make a mistake. They fail to realize that physicians are human beings. They still think of physicians as wealthy, privileged people driving expensive cars and living in mansions. U.S. physicians are instead in massive debts from medical schools, massively overworked, cannot take breaks, and are often suicidal from their working conditions.

Jacobsen: How are American patients similar to others?

Desjardins: They get sick.

Jacobsen: How do these expectations from patients impact the pressure from administration towards physicians?

Desjardins: There is increasing use of patient satisfaction metrics by the administration to judge physician performance, which I believe is wrong. Most factors affecting patient satisfaction, like waiting time or access to physicians, are entirely beyond the control of physicians. Hospitals in the U.S. are like hotels. U.S. patients have unrealistic expectations because of this hotel mentality.

Jacobsen: What are the rudest versions of this hotel mindset of American patients?

Desjardins: We see more disrespectful behavior from patients and their families against doctors. Some patients will refuse to be examined by a black, Muslim, female, or foreign physician or by a medical trainee, intern, or resident. They will get angry at physicians if they must wait a long time before visits, if the price of their medication is too high, or if busy physicians do not spend enough time with them. And, of course, angry patients often write bad online reviews against competent, dedicated physicians, negatively affecting the physicians’ careers and livelihood.

Jacobsen: What about American virtues? How are these ameliorating this issue of overwork or poorly cared-for physicians?

Desjardins: Americans can display generosity, compassion, honesty, and solidarity. They often raise thousands of dollars in crowd-funding of patients for an operation, a transplant, or medication. Unfortunately, there is zero empathy in American culture towards physicians. When Americans are told of the poor working conditions of physicians, they simply respond that physicians chose that profession, and they should accept the consequences of working in that profession, even if this leads to physician deaths. When a football player commits suicide, this is extensively covered in the news media, and small local memorials are erected around which people can deposit flowers and pay their respect. When a U.S. physician commits suicide due to poor working conditions, their body gets covered by a tarp, and the death is not reported in the news media. When patients come to their annual physician visit, they are told the physician moved away. After dedicating their lives to taking care of human suffering, their existence is simply eradicated and forgotten. But Americans will remember the football player forever.

Jacobsen: Are violent hysterics against Dr. Fauci ongoing?

Desjardins: I don’t think they will ever stop. In December 2021, Fox News host Jesse Watters urged listeners at a conservative meeting to take a “kill shot” at Dr. Anthony Fauci, the U.S. top government infectious disease physician. Since April 2020, Dr. Fauci and his family have received multiple death threats and have required security and bodyguards. Think about it for a minute. One of the most brilliant infectious disease scientists in the U.S. receives numerous death threats from Americans due to a world pandemic originating in China. What kind of society does that?

Jacobsen: What are two great examples of American ignorance in biology/medicine and basic astronomy?

Desjardins: At my institution, we invite the best scientists in the world to talk about their research. I was privileged to attend lectures by academics who devoted their entire careers to studying American ignorance and scientific illiteracy and trying to find solutions. Here are some examples they provided. Only about 20-30% of Americans believe in the theory of evolution, the core of all biological and medical science. 25% of Americans are unaware that the Earth revolves around the Sun. More recently, when Trump recommended injecting or swallowing Clorox to kill the coronavirus during the pandemic, thousands of Americans poisoned themselves by following his advice.

Jacobsen: Is there a similar trend, as with the increasingly worse treatment of physicians over half of a century, of a collapse of the social fabric and institutional trust in the United States? If so, are these mutually reinforcing trends?

Desjardins: The combination of ignorance and hostility in the U.S., each reinforcing the other, leads to the current war against expertise, in which the expertise of physicians, scientists, and scholars is downplayed or wholly dismissed. I am reminded of the famous quote by Isaac Azimov: “There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.” In his 2017 book, “The Death of Expertise: The Campaign Against Established Knowledge and Why It Matters,” Tom Nichols addressed the issue. Nichols notes that “increasing numbers of laypeople lack basic knowledge, they reject fundamental rules of evidence and refuse to learn how to make a logical argument.” He describes instances where scientifically illiterate patients tell their physician why their advice is wrong. He decries Americans’ lack of critical thinking abilities, their positive hostility towards knowledge, their rejection of science, and of dispassionate rationality, which are the foundations of modern civilization.

4 – On the work conditions of U.S. physicians

Jacobsen: What was the earliest known, to you, exposure to the poor working treatment of physicians in the United States?

Desjardins: I realized it as soon as I started my training in the U.S. when I was forced to work 68h without sleep. I had been on call at the hospital two nights in a row, had worked 58 consecutive hours without rest, and was driving back home. As I crashed into my bed, I received a phone call from my chief resident asking me why I was not at the hospital as I was on call again for a third night in a row. I was unaware of it and explained the situation. He ordered me to get back to work. I drove back exhausted to the hospital and could have easily been killed in a car accident. I worked ten additional consecutive hours until I crashed on the call room floor. They found me unconscious later that morning. It was my first exposure to the poor working conditions of U.S. physicians.

Jacobsen: Who have been the most vocal people about exposing the treatment of physicians from 50 years ago to 10 years ago?

Desjardins: In the U.S., it was common for post-MD medical trainees (called “residents”) to work 90-100 hours per week and up to 36 hours without rest. In March 1984, 18-yo Libby Zion died at a New York hospital from a prescription error by a resident doing a 36h shift. It led to an investigation on the effect of resident fatigue on patient safety. New regulations were passed in 1987 limiting residents in New York to work no more than 80h per week and no more than 24 consecutive hours. In 2003, the ACGME (the body regulating medical training in the U.S.) extended the rule to all residents. They also limited resident calls to once every third night and implemented one day off per week. For comparison, in Europe, residents cannot work more than 48h per week. Note that these new rules only apply to residents in training, not to the U.S. practicing physicians who regularly work up to 120h per week and up to 72 consecutive hours without sleep.

Jacobsen: Of various productions, what ones seem to have made the biggest inroads in sheer viewership or consumption?

Desjardins: Around ten years ago, some physicians started to expose the poor working conditions of U.S. physicians. Dr. Pamela Wible noticed an epidemic of suicide among physicians, and she began accumulating data. So far, she has documented 1620 suicides of physicians caused by their poor working conditions, a clear underestimate of the true incidence of the problem. She publicized her results in a TED talk (“Why doctors kill themselves,” March 23, 2016), maintains a blog, and wrote books on the poor treatment of U.S. physicians. Since then, many articles, blogs, books, medical conferences, and documentary movies have covered the poor treatment of U.S. physicians. As a result of these initiatives, physician wellness is now a topic addressed by every U.S. hospital and medical school.

Jacobsen: Which productions have been the most incisive and factually accurate?

Desjardins: On April 8, 2019, the New York Times published the op-ed article “The Business of Health Care Depends on Exploiting Doctors and Nurses” by Dr. Danielle Ofri. The op-ed discussed how the U.S. exploits healthcare workers with poor working conditions that would be unacceptable in other fields and countries. In June 2019, Dr. Pamela Wible wrote a book entitled “Human Rights Violations in Medicine,” tabulating and illustrating with real examples 40 different ways in which the U.S. violates the fundamental human rights of its physicians. It includes sleep deprivation, food deprivation, water deprivation, overwork, exploitation, bullying, punishment when sick, violence, no mental health care, etc. In 2018, Robyn Symon produced a documentary movie on physician suicide and poor working conditions entitled “Do no harm” (donoharmfilm.com). It is available for rent on Amazon and Vimeo. In 2004, Dr. Kevin Pho created a blog (KevinMD.com) on physician issues. Several recent articles and interviews on his blog have focused on the poor working conditions of U.S. physicians.

Jacobsen: What are other superficial proposals at every medical center hypothesized to help with the issue of overwork?

Desjardins: The U.S. lacks interest in identifying and solving real problems. It goes well beyond healthcare and applies to poverty, violence, corruption, gun control, climate change, etc. Band-Aid solutions are proposed, and the root causes of problems are rarely addressed. Physician working conditions are treated similarly. Every hospital and medical school is now addressing physician wellness, given the massive levels of physician burnout. They discuss yoga mats, meditation, eating healthy, exercising, and sleeping well. But they don’t address 120h work weeks, 72 consecutive hours call shifts without rest and lack of access to food and water, physicians dying on the job, getting strokes on the job, destroying their health.

Jacobsen: Have any tried the simple and obvious solution by taking issue with the prefix “over-” in “overwork” to deal with overwork of physicians?

Desjardins: No. There is a lack of interest in identifying the real problems and offering needed solutions. There is only one solution to the overwork of U.S. physicians: getting more physicians (or physician equivalent healthcare workers). The U.S. has 2.6 physicians per 1000 people (WorldBank data). The European Union has 4.9, ranging from 3.7 in the Netherlands to 8.0 in Italy, with much healthier populations. Despite the smaller number of physicians in the U.S., the country has the highest healthcare costs globally: $11K per capita in the U.S., compared to $5K per capita in the European Union. If the U.S. increased its population of physicians, the costs would rise since U.S. medicine is a business with unlimited spending. Hospitals have started to explore substituting physicians with less qualified healthcare workers to decrease costs. The frightening consequences of this approach have been well documented in the 2020 book by Dr. Al-Agba and Dr. Bernard, “Patients at Risk: The Rise of the Nurse Practitioner and Physician Assistant in Healthcare.” The book provides examples of poorly trained N.P.s and P.A.s, allowed to perform physician-level decisions and actions, resulting in preventable patient deaths.

Jacobsen: If working 36 hours in one period, what are the impacts, known in medicine and psychology, on the human brain?

Desjardins: Lack of sleep for 24h is, according to the CDC, equivalent to having a blood alcohol content of 0.10, higher than the legal driving limit of 0.08. Among the many side effects, it creates drowsiness, impaired judgment, impaired memory, reduced coordination, increased stress level, and the brain shutting down neurons in some regions. Lack of sleep for 48h affects cognition. The brain enters brief periods of complete unconsciousness known as microsleep, lasting several seconds. Lack of sleep for 72h will have more profound effects on mood and cognition and can lead to paranoia. Chronic sleep deprivation has a lasting impact on general health and creates high blood pressure, obesity, diabetes, heart disease, and depression.

Jacobsen: If working 90-100 hours in a week in one week, what are the impacts, known in medicine and psychology, on the human body?

Desjardins: In a 2021 study by WHO and ILO, long working hours (> 55h/week) led to 398 000 deaths from stroke (35% risk increase) and 347 000 deaths from ischemic heart disease (17% risk increase). Dr. Maria Neira from WHO stated that “Working 55 hours or more per week is a serious health hazard“. Now imagine how much worst of a hazard for physicians forced to work more than 55 consecutive hours without rest. I cannot find any studies specifically looking at the health effects of 90-100 hours workweeks. Japan has the term “karoshi” to describe death by overwork, and employers are held criminally responsible for such deaths. No such laws exist in the U.S.

Jacobsen: How do these working conditions – and work expectations – impact the social life of the physicians amongst one another, and the physician-to-patient interaction?

Desjardins: Overwork increases the divorce rate in female physicians, not in male physicians. Many physicians do not have much social life since they work constantly. They mainly interact with other physicians at work, not outside work. Sometimes burned-out overworked physicians have been rude to their patients, especially surgeons.

Jacobsen: How were physician friends killed in the midst of maltreatment due to working conditions in medical institutions? How have physician friends been permanently disabled due to the work conditions?

Desjardins: Thousands of U.S. physicians have been killed or disabled because of poor working conditions. It has been extensively described in the literature. In my circle of colleagues, which extends beyond my current institution, three of my close radiology colleagues have been killed, all in their 30s, and many have been disabled for life. One was killed at work under circumstances that are still hidden. Two were killed in car accidents after driving back home in the middle of the night after their workday, completely exhausted. A colleague developed a stroke during his workday resulting in a permanent physical handicap. Another colleague was on his 97th hour of work on a week in which he was not allowed to sleep much or eat much. His body failed under these poor working conditions, and he became blind during work. He was rushed to the E.R., where they diagnosed a work-condition induced hypertensive urgency with bilateral optic nerve damage. They pumped him full of medication until part of his vision returned. But he remains physically disabled for life due to the poor working conditions.

Jacobsen: How many patients kill their, current or former, physicians every year in the United States? How does this compare to other countries with metrics if any?

Desjardins: There are, unfortunately, no statistics on that. In my city, physicians are frequently assaulted by their patients. Some have been stabbed in the face, and some have been killed. The local news media almost always downplay it. Physicians are killed in other countries, too, notably in China. Physician suicides from the poor U.S. working conditions are also downplayed. When a physician jumps from the roof of their hospital, the local authorities simply throw a tarp over the body and don’t report it in the news media. Hospitals simply do not want the bad publicity from having a series of physicians jumping to their death from the roof of their hospital due to poor working conditions, like what recently happened in some N.Y. hospitals.

Jacobsen: What is the level of burn out in your field? What is the formal definition of “burn out” – whatever terms people want to use to describe physicians simply being taxed beyond reasonable limits and – not even requested – demanded to work more, as in your case?

Desjardins: The current level of burnout in my field is up to 70%. There has been a debate on whether physicians experience burnout, moral injury, or basic human rights violations. Burnout means physical and mental collapse from overwork. Moral injury indicates damage to one’s conscience when witnessing horrible conditions violating one’s moral beliefs or code of conduct. In 1948 the U.N. General Assembly adopted a Universal Declaration of Human Rights, a standard for properly treating human beings. Human rights violations are violations of the rules in this declaration. Physicians experience all three categories of injuries: burnout, moral injury, and human rights violations. It is a symptom of a toxic healthcare system, with working conditions massively out of compliance with safe labor laws from all other industries.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more egregious examples of (mis-)treatment of physicians?

Desjardins: There are many examples in the literature. Some U.S. physicians are forced to work up to 72 consecutive hours without rest. In my circle of colleagues, which extends well beyond my current institution, many of my colleagues experienced mistreatment. A physician friend recently started a new job in breast imaging. At the end of her first workday, which included a half-day orientation, they put her on probation for not reading her daily quota of 100 studies. At the end of her second workday, she became more proficient with her new work tools and read 98 studies, two studies short of her daily quota. They fired her immediately. Another physician friend was starting a new radiology job and went to lunch at the hospital cafeteria on her first day. She was forcibly dragged back to her work cubicle before eating a single bite, yelled at by administrators, and told physicians in her practice are not allowed to eat during the workday. Many physicians are required to work non-stop with no breaks for eating and no bathroom breaks and finish their regular workday in the middle of the night. They sometimes must sleep on the floor of their office at the hospital as there is not enough time to return home before their next shift. Dr. Pamela Wible identified several extreme examples of mistreatment: physicians being forced to work during a miscarriage or a seizure, surgeons collapsing on their patients because of dehydration and hypoglycemia because of their lack of access to food and water during work, and physicians falling asleep on their patient during medical rounds due to massive exhaustion.

Jacobsen: When speaking of your deceased or now-disabled colleagues, what happens to a body as parts of it simply shut down, especially in, basically, peak health years, e.g., the 30s?

Desjardins: For deceased colleagues, their body gets cremated or eaten by worms. For disabled colleagues, their health remains affected by the damage to their bodies for the remaining of their lives and deteriorates faster as they get older. They develop chronic diseases, such as high blood pressure, sooner than other workers, making their bodies deteriorate faster and increasing morbidity and mortality.

Jacobsen: For the UDHR, what human rights violations are discussed the most in the literature?

Desjardins: I would say violations of Article 23 (Everyone has the right to work, to free choice of employment, to just and favorable conditions of work), Article 24 (Everyone has the right to rest and leisure, including reasonable limitation of working hours), and Article 25 (Everyone has the right to a standard of living adequate for the health and well-being of himself and of his family, including food).

Jacobsen: Is the International Labour Organization, in any way, involved in rectifying these working conditions? Are there any countries anywhere with comparable working conditions, though, perhaps, lacking the advanced expertise and technological sophistication of the U.S.?

Desjardins: Among the risks for physicians identified by the ILO is “Physical and mental fatigue stemming from the specific conditions of this work” and “Danger of being violently attacked by unsatisfied patients.” So, the ILO has identified some of the risks and has proposed some solutions (Improving employment and working conditions in health services, 2017). In that paper, they discuss the European Union 2003 Working Time Directive, setting work limits to 48h per week, minimum daily rest periods of 11h, weekly rest of 35h, and allowing derogations for some doctors. They do not discuss the working conditions of U.S. physicians. Every country has different working conditions for physicians. India, China, and African Countries have difficult working conditions, given limited access to medical technology and the low physician to population ratios. But among the most industrialized countries (G-20), the U.S. and China have the worst working conditions for physicians.

Jacobsen: What are common statements from physicians about the working conditions?

Desjardins: The physician workforce has undergone a progressive zombification as it evolved within the current system. Physicians develop learned powerlessness to affect the system and deference to authority. They understand that working 72 consecutive hours without sleep is illegal and inhumane in every other profession except their own but are forced to do it by their hospital administration. They know that they will continue to become victims of crimes committed by corrupt prosecutors. They understand that the U.S. population is strongly anti-physicians and anti-science and will never be their ally. They know that the U.S. healthcare system is collapsing faster than anyone predicted. So, they bear the insufferable work environment and count the days until they can afford to abandon their medical careers or die on the job.

Jacobsen: Have American physicians simply left states to other states, even to other countries for humane working conditions?

Desjardins: Definitely. Physicians frequently move out of state because of working conditions. In some departments, large groups of physicians leave en masse to practice elsewhere or abandon their medical career. Most would like to move out of the U.S. into countries with better working conditions for physicians, such as Canada, the U.K., or European Union countries, but immigration and licensure issues prevent them from moving abroad.

Jacobsen: What does this bode for the future of the American healthcare system?

Desjardins: The American healthcare system is collapsing. A massive shortage of healthcare workers is rapidly worsening, made even worse by the treatment of U.S. healthcare workers during the recent pandemic. The jail time recently imposed by a judge on a massively overworked nurse for a fatal mistake will likely have a massive negative impact. These factors decrease the interest of foreign healthcare workers to move to the U.S., reduce the appeal of Americans to enter the medical field and make healthcare workers retire earlier. They have caused the development of healthcare deserts in 80% of the counties in the U.S., which lack access to the medical workforce, hospitals, or pharmacies. The present situation is bleak, but the future will be even more dismal.

5 – On the medical-legal system in the U.S.

Jacobsen: How is the U.S. comparable to the Middle Ages with patients blaming physicians for illness?

Desjardins: It is often taught that the U.S. has been the only country since the Middle Ages in which people blame physicians for their diseases. There is no personal accountability anymore in the U.S. Every problem Americans face is someone else’s fault. They blame most problems on immigrants or rich people, but they blame healthcare problems on physicians. If a woman delivers an imperfect baby, she blames it on the physician and tries to extort money. If a man develops lung cancer after chain-smoking for 50 years, he will often go over his past medical record with lawyers to see if a physician could be blamed for his cancer. Sometimes they discover early imperceptible evidence about cancer and then try to extort money from physicians. Most U.S. courtrooms in medical-legal trials are like the courtroom from the movie “Idiocracy,” where massively ignorant, scientifically illiterate people try to blame top physicians for patients’ diseases. The U.S. medical-legal system has been the laughingstock of the entire planet for more than fifty years.

Jacobsen: What about the legal repercussions?

Desjardins: An entire sector of the U.S. “justice” system has been created to blame physicians for patients’ diseases. There are thousands of primarily frivolous lawsuits filed against physicians in the U.S. every year. Corrupt prosecutors use four well-known techniques of deception to extort money: (1) they suppress published scientific evidence supporting the correct actions by physicians, (2) they commit massive perjury against physicians, (3) they use flawed reasoning techniques from con-artists to fool jurors, and (4) they pay unqualified “experts” to misrepresent the standards of medical practice in court. In addition, U.S. judges threaten physicians with jail time if they try to prove in court that they followed correct science, after corrupt prosecutors suppress published scientific evidence. In other countries, using deception to extort money is a crime. In the U.S., it is the modus operandi of a 55-billion-dollar financial extortion industry against physicians and hospitals, affecting up to 80% of U.S. physicians in some specialties.

Jacobsen: Also, how is the court system in Pennsylvania?

Desjardins: In the past ten years, Philadelphia has been exposed in the medical literature and at medical conferences as having one of the most corrupt, scientifically illiterate medical-legal systems on Earth. The Philadelphia “justice” system frequently commits crimes against innocent physicians.

Jacobsen: What are some fallouts or likely outcomes from this idiocy?

Desjardins: It has led to a severe shortage of physicians in Philadelphia. Physicians have left the city by the boatload, sometimes more than 50% of entire divisions resigning en masse, and we experience significant difficulties recruiting. Several city hospitals have permanently shut down in recent years, and many more are on the verge of shutting down.

Jacobsen: How does this impact the future of the field to recruit sufficiently qualified, even talented, individuals? Where do they go? What about those better physicians in the field who can hack it, but don’t want to deal with the nonsense and risks to livelihood?

Desjardins: In the past ten years, my clinical section, which is in desperate need of more radiologists, has not been able to recruit any radiologists. We have offered some promising recruits the possibility to work remotely. Still, they do not want to be associated with the city of Philadelphia for the reasons described above.

Jacobsen: How do U.S. physicians keep one another in check, too, in case of malpractice – so back to higher levels of healthcare education and authority?

Desjardins: A tiny portion of lawsuits against physicians are genuine cases of malpractice due to poorly trained or incompetent physicians. Checks and balances are in place to either address the educational shortcomings or remove the practice license if necessary. Most lawsuits are crimes committed against excellent physicians by corrupt prosecutors in cases of bad outcomes or complications, which are part of expected outcomes in medicine. There is no lesson for physicians to learn from these cases. They are discussed in the literature and at conferences to educate physicians about the corruption and scientific illiteracy of the U.S. “justice” system and prepare them to become crime victims.

Jacobsen: Have physicians built any defense mechanisms or infrastructure to protect themselves from the litigious patients, when they inevitably arise, or the top-heavy bureaucratic culture?

Desjardins: There is a malpractice insurance system for physicians, a 55-billion-dollar industry. When physicians become victims of too many frivolous lawsuits, the cost of their malpractice insurance rapidly increases until, at some point, they cannot afford to pay the exorbitant fees and are forced to abandon their medical careers. Physicians practicing in cities with the most corrupt medical-legal systems tend to leave their medical profession early, worsening the massive shortage of physicians.

Jacobsen: How does this – the litigious patients out there and the maltreatment of healthcare professionals by institutions – impact those with fewer means and less authority in medical institutions, e.g., nurses, nurse-practitioners, and the like?

Desjardins: Nurses and nurse-practitioners have their own malpractice insurance system, although physicians and hospitals are the main targets of prosecutors. Nurses also have difficult working conditions, including forced overtime. But they cannot be exposed to working conditions as poor as physicians, as nurses have a union. For example, nurses are “officially” not allowed to work more than 12 consecutive hours in most states. It does not include occasional forced overtime. Some physicians are required to work up to 72 straight hours. It would be illegal and inhumane to make nurses work as long as physicians.

6 – On medical quackery in the U.S.

Jacobsen: What are common cases of individuals able to use the term “doctor,” “physician,” etc., by law, or not, when, in fact, no legitimate training or grounds for the claims to the titles exist?

Desjardins: Many professions outside medicine use the term “doctor.” Any Ph.D. in any field has the right to be called a “doctor,” for example, Dr. Jill Biden has a doctorate in educational leadership. Dr. Phil McGraw (Dr. Phil) is not a physician but provides medical advice on T.V. He has a Doctorate in Psychology but is not a licensed psychologist. In the healthcare field, Doctors of Osteopathy (D.O.s) have the right to be called “doctors” and practice medicine in the U.S. but cannot practice medicine in some other countries. Chiropractors and naturopaths are called “doctors” and practice healthcare but are not physicians. They constitute a hazard to healthcare and are not allowed to practice in most countries. There are cases of individuals pretending to be physicians who practice medicine without training until they are exposed.

Jacobsen: There are ineffective remedies out there in the public sold. What about medical institutions who buy into them and begin to practice them? What are cases of this? Are there any consequences for individuals engaged in giving out known ineffective treatments?

Desjardins: The medical community scientifically assesses remedies to determine their effectiveness. If they are proven ineffective, respectable institutions will not adopt them. Some physicians dispense some ineffective or dangerous therapy and can lose their license. Recently U.S. judges forced physicians to administer ivermectin (horse deworming medicine) to COVID patients, an act of pure idiocy. It reflects the mindboggling scientific illiteracy of the U.S. justice system. Physicians who have administered such medication have been fired for incompetence and stupidity.

Jacobsen: Also, what are the problems with ‘alternative’ medicine, naturopathic medicine, and so on?

Desjardins: They don’t work. Just look at the late Steve Jobs.

Jacobsen: I wrote a short article critical of Naturopathy in British Columbia, Canada, a while ago – a quickie. A while goes, I received a lengthy email or digital letter from the President of the British Columbia Naturopathic Association (B.C.NA.) at the time. Obviously, the person was displeased. I responded with the same so-called baseless critiques towards this individual, once, saying I would only do it a single time, but covered the territory well. How is the Dr. Oz-ification of culture and medicine halting progress on the front of proper treatment of disease in American society?

Desjardins: Some individuals with top credentials in a specific field sometimes become self-appointed experts in entirely different fields. Dr. Mehmet Oz is one of those. He is a retired Ivy League Professor and cardiothoracic surgeon from Columbia University. He is a scholar with top credentials in a highly specialized field, who has become a television personality and started providing general health advice. He has promoted pseudoscience, alternative medicine, faith healing, and paranormal beliefs. Dr. Scott Atlas, a prominent neuroradiologist from Stanford, was appointed by Trump as a coronavirus advisor, an area in which he had no expertise. He then spread massive misinformation about COVID and advised against the official policy of the CDC. Pseudo-experts are tools that ignorant, corrupt people use to spread misinformation in the U.S. These pseudo-experts halt progress of good evidence-based medical policy and affect the quality of care.

Jacobsen: Other than Dr. Oz, who are other ignorance-mongers becoming rich off offering fake medicine?

Desjardins: There are several, especially given the rapid growth of social media. But the most prominent media personalities doctors are Dr. Andrew Weil, a physician and expert in integrative medicine, and Dr. Phil McGraw, a T.V. unlicensed psychologist. Weil has a net worth of $100 million (similar to Dr. Oz). McGraw has a net worth of $460 million. They both offer good and bad advice and are both very entertaining.

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2022-08-21

Prof. Sam Vaknin on Science and Reality

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): News Intervention

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/04/30

Prof. Shmuel “Sam” Vaknin(YouTube, Twitter, Instagram, Facebook, Amazon, LinkedIn, Google Scholar) is the author of Malignant Self-love: Narcissism Revisited (Amazon)and After the Rain: How the West Lost the East(Amazon) as well as many other books and ebooks about topics in psychology, relationships, philosophy, economics, international affairs, and award-winning short fiction. He was Senior Business Correspondent for United Press International (February, 2001 — April, 2003), CEO of Narcissus Publications (April, 1997 — April 2013), Editor-in-Chief of Global Politician (January, 2011 -), a columnist for PopMatters, eBookWeb, Bellaonline, and Central Europe Review, an editor for The Open Directory and Suite101 (Categories: Mental Health and Central East Europe), and a contributor to Middle East Times, a contributing writer to The American Chronicle Media Group, Columnist and Analyst for Nova Makedonija, Fokus, and Kapital, Founding Analyst of The Analyst Network, former president of the Israeli chapter of the Unification Church’s Professors for World Peace Academy, and served in the Israeli Defense Forces (1979–1982). He has been awarded Israel’s Council of Culture and Art Prize for Maiden Prose (1997), The Rotary Club Award for Social Studies (1976), and the Bilateral Relations Studies Award of the American Embassy in Israel (1978), among other awards. He is Visiting Professor of Psychology, Southern Federal University, Rostov-on-Don, Russia(September, 2017 to present), Professor of Finance and Psychology in SIAS-CIAPS (Centre for International Advanced and Professional Studies)(April, 2012 to present), a Senior Correspondent for New York Daily Sun (January, 2015 — Present), and Columnist for Allied Newspapers Group (January, 2015 — Present). He lives in Skopje, North Macedonia with his wife, Lidija Rangelovska. Here we talk about science and reality.

*Previous interviews listed chronologically after interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Reality — all that is, ever was, or ever will be, what defines it, to you?

Prof. Shmuel “Sam” Vaknin: “Reality” is the name we give to our aggregate experiences, both of ourselves (“consciousness”) and of not-ourselves (the “world out there”).

We assume that a world exists independent of our perception of it or interaction with it because we maintain an intersubjective agreement with all other human beings.

The high correlation between the contents of our mind and the self-reports of others leads us to deduce that we must be sharing something distinct from our observations and experiences.

Of course, this commonly shared “theory of reality” is full of holes and easily refuted. But we tend to ignore this fact and impute “reality” even to simulated worlds — simply because they trigger reactions in our brains.

Jacobsen: What defines science?

Vaknin: Scientific Theories

All theories — scientific or not — start with a problem. They aim to solve it by proving that what appears to be “problematic” is not. They re-state the conundrum, or introduce new data, new variables, a new classification, or new organizing principles. They incorporate the problem in a larger body of knowledge, or in a conjecture (“solution”). They explain why we thought we had an issue on our hands — and how it can be avoided, vitiated, or resolved.

Every scientific theory and many pillars of the scientific method are founded on metaphysical principles.

Evolution Theory hails from the metaphysical assumption that individual organisms as well as entire species aim or are geared to survive. Survival is the hermeneutic and organizing principle.

The Special Theory of Relativity is based on the Cartesian separation between observer and observed.

Popper’s principle of Falsifiability is founded on a tautology (for a theory to be considered scientific, it must be falsifiable — but we can apply falsifiability only to scientific theories). Add to this the fact that the languages we use to communicate science — mathematics and geometry, for instance — are not neutral. They constrain in large measure what can and cannot be said, they shape content via context, and they provide language elements as theoretical entities.

There are two types of ideas: synoptic and prescriptive. Synoptic ideas shed light on the interconnectedness of apparently disparate phenomena or concepts. These insights are titillating, fascinating, or even mind-boggling. But, with the exception of a few specialists and eggheads, they are usually of fleeting interest, akin to intellectual fireworks and pyrotechnics, a form of entertainment that fizzles out and is rendered tedious by repetition. Synoptic ideas are deep and intertwined, so people tend to tune out and wander off (or fall asleep) in mid-sentence. Interdisciplinarity requires discipline and rigor that few have, not even the majority of scholars (witness the crowd dynamics in academic conferences). In contradistinction, prescriptive ideas focus on proposed solutions based on cumulative data and experience or on theories and rules of derivation. They are highly relevant to their consumers because they aim to better their lives and resolve their problems. Religion, science, technology, and most of philosophy are prescriptive. A public intellectual whose output is strictly synoptic won’t remain public for very long: he will fall out of favor and be ignored and overlooked. Prescriptive thought leaders and change agents thrive and prosper the more anomic, disrupted, dysfunctional, and pathologized society is. The more lost, disoriented, anxious, and depressed people are, the more they seek prescription to extricate them from their predicament.

Scientific theories invite constant criticism and revision. They yield new problems. They are proven erroneous and are replaced by new models which offer better explanations and a more profound sense of understanding — often by solving these new problems. From time to time, the successor theories constitute a break with everything known and done till then. These seismic convulsions are known as “paradigm shifts”.

It is interesting to note that paradigm-shifting work is often produced by non-specialist outsiders, gifted amateurs, and laymen (such as Da Vinci, Steno, Mandel, Freud, and, to some extent, Einstein). As Thomas Kuhn noted, run of the mill scientists are vested and invested in the status quo and normally generate paradigm-sustaining theories and discoveries.

Contrary to widespread opinion — even among scientists — science is not only about “facts”. It is not merely about quantifying, measuring, describing, classifying, and organizing “things” (entities). It is not even concerned with finding out the “truth”. Science is about providing us with concepts, explanations, and predictions (collectively known as “theories”) and thus endowing us with a sense of understanding of our world.

Scientific theories are allegorical or metaphoric. They revolve around symbols and theoretical constructs, concepts and substantive assumptions, axioms and hypotheses — most of which can never, even in principle, be computed, observed, quantified, measured, or correlated with the world “out there”. By appealing to our imagination, scientific theories reveal what David Deutsch calls “the fabric of reality”.

Like any other system of knowledge, science has its fanatics, heretics, and deviants.

Instrumentalists, for instance, insist that scientific theories should be concerned exclusively with predicting the outcomes of appropriately designed experiments. Their explanatory powers are of no consequence. Positivists ascribe meaning only to statements that deal with observables and observations.

Instrumentalists and positivists ignore the fact that predictions are derived from models, narratives, and organizing principles. In short: it is the theory’s explanatory dimensions that determine which experiments are relevant and which are not. Forecasts — and experiments — that are not embedded in an understanding of the world (in an explanation) do not constitute science.

Granted, predictions and experiments are crucial to the growth of scientific knowledge and the winnowing out of erroneous or inadequate theories. But they are not the only mechanisms of natural selection. There are other criteria that help us decide whether to adopt and place confidence in a scientific theory or not. Is the theory aesthetic (parsimonious), logical, does it provide a reasonable explanation and, thus, does it further our understanding of the world?

David Deutsch in “The Fabric of Reality” (p. 11):

“… (I)t is hard to give a precise definition of ‘explanation’ or ‘understanding’. Roughly speaking, they are about ‘why’ rather than ‘what’; about the inner workings of things; about how things really are, not just how they appear to be; about what must be so, rather than what merely happens to be so; about laws of nature rather than rules of thumb. They are also about coherence, elegance, and simplicity, as opposed to arbitrariness and complexity …”

Reductionists and emergentists ignore the existence of a hierarchy of scientific theories and meta-languages. They believe — and it is an article of faith, not of science — that complex phenomena (such as the human mind) can be reduced to simple ones (such as the physics and chemistry of the brain). Furthermore, to them the act of reduction is, in itself, an explanation and a form of pertinent understanding. Human thought, fantasy, imagination, and emotions are nothing but electric currents and spurts of chemicals in the brain, they say.

Holists, on the other hand, refuse to consider the possibility that some higher-level phenomena can, indeed, be fully reduced to base components and primitive interactions. They ignore the fact that reductionism sometimes does provide explanations and understanding. The properties of water, for instance, do spring forth from its chemical and physical composition and from the interactions between its constituent atoms and subatomic particles.

Still, there is a general agreement that scientific theories must be abstract (independent of specific time or place), intersubjectively explicit (contain detailed descriptions of the subject matter in unambiguous terms), logically rigorous (make use of logical systems shared and accepted by the practitioners in the field), empirically relevant (correspond to results of empirical research), useful (in describing and/or explaining the world), and provide typologies and predictions.

A scientific theory should resort to primitive (atomic) terminology and all its complex (derived) terms and concepts should be defined in these indivisible terms. It should offer a map unequivocally and consistently connecting operational definitions to theoretical concepts.

Operational definitions that connect to the same theoretical concept should not contradict each other (be negatively correlated). They should yield agreement on measurement conducted independently by trained experimenters. But investigation of the theory of its implication can proceed even without quantification.

Theoretical concepts need not necessarily be measurable or quantifiable or observable. But a scientific theory should afford at least four levels of quantification of its operational and theoretical definitions of concepts: nominal (labeling), ordinal (ranking), interval and ratio.

As we said, scientific theories are not confined to quantified definitions or to a classificatory apparatus. To qualify as scientific they must contain statements about relationships (mostly causal) between concepts — empirically-supported laws and/or propositions (statements derived from axioms).

Philosophers like Carl Hempel and Ernest Nagel regard a theory as scientific if it is hypothetico-deductive. To them, scientific theories are sets of inter-related laws. We know that they are inter-related because a minimum number of axioms and hypotheses yield, in an inexorable deductive sequence, everything else known in the field the theory pertains to.

Explanation is about retrodiction — using the laws to show how things happened. Prediction is using the laws to show how thingswillhappen. Understanding is explanation and prediction combined.

William Whewell augmented this somewhat simplistic point of view with his principle of “consilience of inductions”. Often, he observed, inductive explanations of disparate phenomena are unexpectedly traced to one underlying cause. This is what scientific theorizing is about — finding the common source of the apparently separate.

This omnipotent view of the scientific endeavor competes with a more modest, semantic school of philosophy of science.

Many theories — especially ones with breadth, width, and profundity, such as Darwin’s theory of evolution — are not deductively integrated and are very difficult to test (falsify) conclusively. Their predictions are either scant or ambiguous.

Scientific theories, goes the semantic view, are amalgams of models of reality. These are empirically meaningful only inasmuch as they are empirically (directly and therefore semantically) applicable to a limited area. A typical scientific theory is not constructed with explanatory and predictive aims in mind. Quite the opposite: the choice of models incorporated in it dictates its ultimate success in explaining the Universe and predicting the outcomes of experiments.

To qualify as meaningful and instrumental, a scientific explanation (or “theory”) must be:

All-inclusive (anamnetic)– It must encompass, integrate and incorporate all the facts known.
Coherent– It must be chronological, structured and causal.
Consistent– Self-consistent (its sub-units cannot contradict one another or go against the grain of the main explication) and consistent with the observed phenomena (both those related to the event or subject and those pertaining to the rest of the universe).
Logically compatible– It must not violate the laws of logic both internally (the explanation must abide by some internally imposed logic) and externally (the Aristotelian logic which is applicable to the observable world).
Insightful– It must inspire a sense of awe and astonishment which is the result of seeing something familiar in a new light or the result of seeing a pattern emerging out of a big body of data. The insights must constitute the inevitable conclusion of the logic, the language, and of the unfolding of the explanation.
Aesthetic– The explanation must be both plausible and “right”, beautiful, not cumbersome, not awkward, not discontinuous, smooth, parsimonious, simple, and so on.
Parsimonious– The explanation must employ the minimum numbers of assumptions and entities in order to satisfy all the above conditions.
Explanatory– The explanation must elucidate the behavior of other elements, including the subject’s decisions and behavior and why events developed the way they did.
- Predictive (prognostic)– The explanation must possess the ability to predict future events, including the future behavior of the subject.
- Elastic– The explanation must possess the intrinsic abilities to self organize, reorganize, give room to emerging order, accommodate new data comfortably, and react flexibly to attacks from within and from without.

Scientific theories must also be testable, verifiable, and refutable (falsifiable). The experiments that test their predictions must be repeatable and replicable in tightly controlled laboratory settings. All these elements are largely missing from creationist and intelligent design “theories” and explanations. No experiment could be designed to test the statements within such explanations, to establish their truth-value and, thus, to convert them to theorems or hypotheses in a theory.

This is mainly because of a problem known as the undergeneration of testable hypotheses: Creationism and intelligent Design do not generate a sufficient number of hypotheses, which can be subjected to scientific testing. This has to do with their fabulous (i.e., storytelling) nature and the resort to an untestable, omnipotent, omniscient, and omnipresent Supreme Being.

In a way, Creationism and Intelligent Design show affinity with some private languages. They are forms ofartand, as such, are self-sufficient and self-contained. If structural, internal constraints are met, a statement is deemed true within the “canon” even if it does not satisfy external scientific requirements.

The Life Cycle of Scientific Theories

“There was a time when the newspapers said that only twelve men understood the theory of relativity. I do not believe that there ever was such a time… On the other hand, I think it is safe to say that no one understands quantum mechanics… Do not keep saying to yourself, if you can possibly avoid it, ‘But how can it be like that?’, because you will get ‘down the drain’ into a blind alley from which nobody has yet escaped. Nobody knows how it can be like that.” R. P. Feynman (1967)

“The first processes, therefore, in the effectual studies of the sciences, must be ones of simplification and reduction of the results of previous investigations to a form in which the mind can grasp them.” J. C. Maxwell, On Faraday’s lines of force

“ …conventional formulations of quantum theory, and of quantum field theory in particular, are unprofessionally vague and ambiguous. Professional theoretical physicists ought to be able to do better. Bohm has shown us a way.” John S. Bell, Speakable and Unspeakable in Quantum Mechanics

“It would seem that the theory [quantum mechanics] is exclusively concerned about ‘results of measurement’, and has nothing to say about anything else. What exactly qualifies some physical systems to play the role of ‘measurer’? Was the wavefunction of the world waiting to jump for thousands of millions of years until a single-celled living creature appeared? Or did it have to wait a little longer, for some better qualified system … with a Ph.D.? If the theory is to apply to anything but highly idealized laboratory operations, are we not obliged to admit that more or less ‘measurement-like’ processes are going on more or less all the time, more or less everywhere. Do we not have jumping then all the time?

The first charge against ‘measurement’, in the fundamental axioms of quantum mechanics, is that it anchors the shifty split of the world into ‘system’ and ‘apparatus’. A second charge is that the word comes loaded with meaning from everyday life, meaning which is entirely inappropriate in the quantum context. When it is said that something is ‘measured’ it is difficult not to think of the result as referring to some pre-existing property of the object in question. This is to disregard Bohr’s insistence that in quantum phenomena the apparatus as well as the system is essentially involved. If it were not so, how could we understand, for example, that ‘measurement’ of a component of ‘angular momentum’ … in an arbitrarily chosen direction … yields one of a discrete set of values? When one forgets the role of the apparatus, as the word ‘measurement’ makes all too likely, one despairs of ordinary logic … hence ‘quantum logic’. When one remembers the role of the apparatus, ordinary logic is just fine.

In other contexts, physicists have been able to take words from ordinary language and use them as technical terms with no great harm done. Take for example the ‘strangeness’, ‘charm’, and ‘beauty’ of elementary particle physics. No one is taken in by this ‘baby talk’… Would that it were so with ‘measurement’. But in fact the word has had such a damaging effect on the discussion, that I think it should now be banned altogether in quantum mechanics.” J. S. Bell, Against “Measurement”

“Is it not clear from the smallness of the scintillation on the screen that we have to do with a particle? And is it not clear, from the diffraction and interference patterns, that the motion of the particle is directed by a wave? De Broglie showed in detail how the motion of a particle, passing through just one of two holes in screen, could be influenced by waves propagating through both holes. And so influenced that the particle does not go where the waves cancel out, but is attracted to where they co-operate. This idea seems to me so natural and simple, to resolve the wave-particle dilemma in such a clear and ordinary way, that it is a great mystery to me that it was so generally ignored.” J. S. Bell, Speakable and Unspeakable in Quantum Mechanics

“…in physics the only observations we must consider are position observations, if only the positions of instrument pointers. It is a great merit of the de Broglie-Bohm picture to force us to consider this fact. If you make axioms, rather than definitions and theorems, about the “measurement” of anything else, then you commit redundancy and risk inconsistency.” J. S. Bell, Speakable and Unspeakable in Quantum Mechanics

“To outward appearance, the modern world was born of an anti religious movement: man becoming self-sufficient and reason supplanting belief. Our generation and the two that preceded it have heard little of but talk of the conflict between science and faith; indeed it seemed at one moment a foregone conclusion that the former was destined to take the place of the latter… After close on two centuries of passionate struggles, neither science nor faith has succeeded in discrediting its adversary. On the contrary, it becomes obvious that neither can develop normally without the other. And the reason is simple: the same life animates both. Neither in its impetus nor its achievements can science go to its limits without becoming tinged with mysticism and charged with faith.” Pierre Thierry de Chardin, “The Phenomenon of Man”

I opened with lengthy quotations by John S. Bell, the main proponent of the Bohemian Mechanics interpretation of Quantum Mechanics (really, an alternative rather than an interpretation). The renowned physicist, David Bohm (in the 50s), basing himself on work done much earlier by de Broglie (the unwilling father of the wave-particle dualism), embedded the Schrödinger Equation (SE) in a deterministic physical theory which postulated a non-Newtonian motion of particles.

This is a fine example of the life cycle of scientific theories, comprised of three phases: Growth, Transitional Pathology, and Ossification.

Witchcraft, Religion, Alchemy and Science succeeded one another and each such transition was characterized by transitional pathologies reminiscent of psychotic disorders. The exceptions are (arguably) the disciplines of medicine and biology. A phenomenology of ossified bodies of knowledge would make a fascinating read.

Science is currently in its Ossification Phase. It is soon to be succeeded by another discipline or magisterium. Other explanations to the current dismal state of science should be rejected: that human knowledge is limited by its very nature; that the world is inherently incomprehensible; that methods of thought and understanding tend to self-organize to form closed mythic systems; and that there is a problem with the language which we employ to make our inquiries of the world describable and communicable.

Kuhn’s approach to Scientific Revolutions is but one of many that deal with theory and paradigm shifts in scientific thought and its resulting evolution. Scientific theories seem to be subject to a process of natural selection every bit as organisms in nature are.

Animals could be thought of as theorems (with a positive truth value) in the logical system “Nature”. But species become extinct because nature itself changes (not nature as a set of potentials — but the relevant natural phenomena to which the species are exposed). Could we say the same about scientific theories? Are they being selected and deselected partly due to a changing, shifting backdrop?

Indeed, the whole debate between “realists” and “anti-realists” in the philosophy of Science can be settled by adopting this single premise: that the Universe itself is not immutable. By contrasting the fixed subject of study (“The World”) with the transient nature of Science anti-realists gained the upper hand.

Arguments such as the under-determination of theories by data and the pessimistic meta-inductions from past falsity (of scientific “knowledge”) emphasize the transience and asymptotic nature of the fruits of the scientific endeavor. But such arguments rest on the implicit assumption that there is some universal, invariant, truth out there (which science strives to asymptotically approximate). This apparent problematic evaporates if we allow that both the observer and the observed, the theory and its subject, are alterable.

Science develops through reduction of miracles. Laws of nature are formulated. They are assumed to encompass all the (relevant) natural phenomena (that is, phenomena governed by natural forces and within nature). Ex definitio, nothing can exist outside nature: it is all-inclusive and all-pervasive, or omnipresent (formerly the attributes of the divine).

Supernatural forces, supernatural intervention, are contradictions in terms, oxymorons. If some thing or force exists, it is natural. That which is supernatural does not exist. Miracles do not only contravene (or violate) the laws of nature, they are impossible, not only physically, but also logically. That which is logically possible and can be experienced (observed), is physically possible.

But, again, we are faced with the assumption of a “fixed background”. What if nature itself changes in ways that are bound to confound ever-truer knowledge? Then, the very shifts of nature as a whole, as a system, could be called “supernatural” or “miraculous”.

In a way, this is how science evolves. A law of nature is proposed or accepted. An event occurs or an observation made which are not described or predicted by it. It is, by definition, a violation of the suggested or accepted law which is, thus, falsified. Subsequently and consequently, the laws of nature are modified, or re-written entirely, in order to reflect and encompass this extraordinary event. Result: Hume’s comforting distinction between “extraordinary” and “miraculous” events is upheld (the latter being ruled out).

Extraordinary events can be compared to previous experience — miraculous events entail some supernatural interference with the normal course of things (a “wonder” in Biblical terms). It is by confronting the extraordinary and eliminating its “abnormal” or “supernatural” attributes that science progresses as a miraculous activity. This, of course, is not the view of the likes of David Deutsch (see his book, “The Fabric of Reality”).

Back to the last phase of this Life Cycle, to Ossification. The discipline degenerates and, following the “psychotic” transitional phase, it sinks into a paralytic state which is characterized by the following:

All the practical and technological aspects of the dying discipline are preserved and continue to be utilized. Gradually the conceptual and theoretical underpinnings vanish or are replaced by the tenets and postulates of a new discipline — but the inventions, processes and practical know-how do not evaporate. They are incorporated into the new discipline and, in time, are erroneously attributed to it, marking it as the legitimate successor of the now defunct, preceding discipline.

The practitioners of the old discipline confine themselves to copying and replicating the various aspects of the old discipline, mainly its intellectual property (writings, inventions, other theoretical material). This replication does not lead to the creation of new knowledge or even to the dissemination of old one. It is a hermetic process, limited to the ever decreasing circle of the initiated. Special institutions govern the rehashing of the materials related to the old discipline, their processing and copying. Institutions related to the dead discipline are often financed and supported by the state which is always an agent of conservation, preservation and conformity.

Thus, the creative-evolutionary dimension of the now-dead discipline is gone. No new paradigms or revolutions happen. The exegesis and replication of canonical writings become the predominant activities. Formalisms are not subjected to scrutiny and laws assume eternal, immutable, quality.

All the activities of the adherents of the old discipline become ritualized. The old discipline itself becomes a pillar of the extant power structures and, as such, is condoned and supported by them. The old discipline’s practitioners synergistically collaborate with the powers that be: with the industrial base, the military complex, the political elite, the intellectual cliques in vogue. Institutionalization inevitably leads to the formation of a (mostly bureaucratic) hierarchy.

Emerging rituals serve the purpose of diverting attention from subversive, “forbidden” thinking. These rigid ceremonies are reminiscent of obsessive-compulsive disorders in individuals who engage in ritualistic behavior patterns to deflect “wrong” or “corrupt” thoughts.

Practitioners of the old discipline seek to cement the power of its “clergy”. Rituals are a specialized form of knowledge which can be obtained only by initiation (“rites of passage”). One’s status in the hierarchy of the dead discipline is not the result of objectively quantifiable variables or even of judgment of merit. It is the outcome of politics and other power-related interactions.

The need to ensure conformity leads to doctrinarian dogmatism and to the establishment of enforcement mechanisms. Dissidents are subjected to both social and economic sanctions. They find themselves ex-communicated, harassed, imprisoned, tortured, their works banished or not published, ridiculed and so on.

This is really the triumph of text over the human spirit. At this late stage in the Life Cycle, the members of the old discipline’s community are oblivious to the original reasons and causes for their pursuits. Why was the discipline developed in the first place? What were the original riddles, questions, queries it faced and tackled? Long gone are the moving forces behind the old discipline. Its cold ashes are the texts and their preservation is an expression of longing and desire for things past.

The vacuum left by the absence of positive emotions is filled by negative ones. The discipline and its disciples become phobic, paranoid, defensive, and with a faulty reality test. Devoid of the ability to generate new, attractive content, the old discipline resorts to motivation by manipulation of negative emotions. People are frightened, threatened, herded, cajoled. The world is painted in an apocalyptic palette as ruled by irrationality, disorderly, chaotic, dangerous, or even lethal. Only the old discipline stands between its adherents and apocalypse.

New, emerging disciplines, are presented as heretic, fringe lunacies, inconsistent, reactionary and bound to regress humanity to some dark ages. This is the inter-disciplinary or inter-paradigm clash. It follows the Psychotic Phase. The old discipline resorts to some transcendental entity (God, Satan, or the conscious intelligent observer in the Copenhagen interpretation of the formalism of Quantum Mechanics). In this sense, the dying discipline is already psychotic and afoul of the test of reality. It develops messianic aspirations and is inspired by a missionary zeal and zest. The fight against new ideas and theories is bloody and ruthless and every possible device is employed.

But the very characteristics of the older nomenclature is in the old discipline’s disfavor. It is closed, based on ritualistic initiation, and patronizing. It relies on intimidation. The numbers of the faithful dwindle the more the “church” needs them and the more it resorts to oppressive recruitment tactics. The emerging discipline wins by default. Even the initiated, who stand most to lose, finally abandon the old discipline. Their belief unravels when confronted with the truth value, explanatory and predictive powers, and the comprehensiveness of the emerging discipline.

This, indeed, is the main presenting symptom, the distinguishing hallmark, of paralytic old disciplines. They deny reality. They are rendered mere belief-systems, myths. They require the suspension of judgment and disbelief, the voluntary limitation of one’s quest for truth and beauty, the agreement to leave swathes of the map in a state of “terra incognita”. This reductionism, this schizoid avoidance, the resort to hermeticism and transcendental authority mark the beginning of the end.

Jacobsen: How are the mentally ill disconnected from reality in various ways?

Vaknin: Mental illness is about opting out of the intersubjective agreement: disagreeing with most other people about what constitutes “reality”. In various periods in history, the mentally ill were considered to be in possession of privileged or exceptional access to a more fundamental stratum of reality, beyond commonly shared experiences.

Is there a way to tell “objective” reality from dreams or mental illness? No, there isn’t. To decide which version of reality is widely accepted, we use statistics (a polling of all the participants in any given worldline) or measures of efficacy (if it works, it must be real or it is based on a correct assessment of reality).

Jacobsen: Why is psychology not science, though following the forms?

Vaknin: Are psychological theories scientific theories by any definition (prescriptive or descriptive)? Hardly.

First, we must distinguish between psychological theories and the way that some of them are applied (psychotherapy and psychological plots). Psychological plots are the narratives co-authored by the therapist and the patient during psychotherapy. These narratives are the outcomes of applying psychological theories and models to the patient’s specific circumstances.

Psychological plots amount to storytelling — but they are still instances of the psychological theories used. The instances of theoretical concepts in concrete situations form part of every theory. Actually, the only way to test psychological theories — with their dearth of measurable entities and concepts — is by examining such instances (plots).

Storytelling has been with us since the days of campfire and besieging wild animals. It serves a number of important functions: amelioration of fears, communication of vital information (regarding survival tactics and the characteristics of animals, for instance), the satisfaction of a sense of order (predictability and justice), the development of the ability to hypothesize, predict and introduce new or additional theories and so on.

We are all endowed with a sense of wonder. The world around us in inexplicable, baffling in its diversity and myriad forms. We experience an urge to organize it, to “explain the wonder away”, to order it so that we know what to expect next (predict). These are the essentials of survival. But while we have been successful at imposing our mind on the outside world — we have been much less successful when we tried to explain and comprehend our internal universe and our behavior.

Psychology is not an exact science, nor can it ever be. This is because its “raw material” (humans and their behavior as individuals and en masse) is not exact. It will never yield natural laws or universal constants (like in physics). Experimentation in the field is constrained by legal and ethical rules. Humans tend to be opinionated, develop resistance, and become self-conscious when observed.

The relationship between the structure and functioning of our (ephemeral) mind, the structure and modes of operation of our (physical) brain, and the structure and conduct of the outside world have been a matter for heated debate for millennia.

Broadly speaking, there are two schools of thought:

One camp identify the substrate (brain) with its product (mind). Some of these scholars postulate the existence of a lattice of preconceived, born, categorical knowledge about the universe — the vessels into which we pour our experience and which mould it.

Others within this group regard the mind as a black box. While it is possible in principle to know its input and output, it is impossible, again in principle, to understand its internal functioning and management of information. To describe this input-output mechanism, Pavlov coined the word “conditioning”, Watson adopted it and invented “behaviorism”, Skinner came up with “reinforcement”.

Epiphenomenologists (proponents of theories of emergent phenomena) regard the mind as the by-product of the complexity of the brain’s “hardware” and “wiring”. But all of them ignore the psychophysical question: what IS the mind and HOW is it linked to the brain?

The other camp assumes the airs of “scientific” and “positivist” thinking. It speculates that the mind (whether a physical entity, an epiphenomenon, a non-physical principle of organization, or the result of introspection) has a structure and a limited set of functions. It is argued that a “mind owner’s manual” could be composed, replete with engineering and maintenance instructions. It proffers a dynamics of the psyche.

The most prominent of these “psychodynamists” was, of course, Freud. Though his disciples (Adler, Horney, the object-relations lot) diverged wildly from his initial theories, they all shared his belief in the need to “scientify” and objectify psychology.

Freud, a medical doctor by profession (neurologist) — preceded by another M.D., Josef Breuer — put forth a theory regarding the structure of the mind and its mechanics: (suppressed) energies and (reactive) forces. Flow charts were provided together with a method of analysis, a mathematical physics of the mind.

Many hold all psychodynamic theories to be a mirage. An essential part is missing, they observe: the ability to test the hypotheses, which derive from these “theories”. Though very convincing and, surprisingly, possessed of great explanatory powers, being non-verifiable and non-falsifiable as they are — psychodynamic models of the mind cannot be deemed to possess the redeeming features of scientific theories.

Deciding between the two camps was and is a crucial matter. Consider the clash — however repressed — between psychiatry and psychology. The former regards “mental disorders” as euphemisms — it acknowledges only the reality of brain dysfunctions (such as biochemical or electric imbalances) and of hereditary factors. The latter (psychology) implicitly assumes that something exists (the “mind”, the “psyche”) which cannot be reduced to hardware or to wiring diagrams. Talk therapy is aimed at that something and supposedly interacts with it.

But perhaps the distinction is artificial. Perhaps the mind is simply the way we experience our brains. Endowed with the gift (or curse) of introspection, we experience a duality, a split, constantly being both observer and observed. Moreover, talk therapy involves TALKING — which is the transfer of energy from one brain to another through the air. This is a directed, specifically formed energy, intended to trigger certain circuits in the recipient brain. It should come as no surprise if it were to be discovered that talk therapy has clear physiological effects upon the brain of the patient (blood volume, electrical activity, discharge and absorption of hormones, etc.).

All this would be doubly true if the mind were, indeed, only an emergent phenomenon of the complex brain — two sides of the same coin.

Psychological theories of the mind are metaphors of the mind. They are fables and myths, narratives, stories, hypotheses, conjunctures. They play (exceedingly) important roles in the psychotherapeutic setting — but not in the laboratory. Their form is artistic, not rigorous, not testable, less structured than theories in the natural sciences. The language used is polyvalent, rich, effusive, ambiguous, evocative, and fuzzy — in short, metaphorical. These theories are suffused with value judgments, preferences, fears, post facto and ad hoc constructions. None of this has methodological, systematic, analytic and predictive merits.

Still, the theories in psychology are powerful instruments, admirable constructs, and they satisfy important needs to explain and understand ourselves, our interactions with others, and with our environment.

The attainment of peace of mind is a need, which was neglected by Maslow in his famous hierarchy. People sometimes sacrifice material wealth and welfare, resist temptations, forgo opportunities, and risk their lives — in order to secure it. There is, in other words, a preference of inner equilibrium over homeostasis. It is the fulfillment of this overwhelming need that psychological theories cater to. In this, they are no different to other collective narratives (myths, for instance).

Still, psychology is desperately trying to maintain contact with reality and to be thought of as a scientific discipline. It employs observation and measurement and organizes the results, often presenting them in the language of mathematics. In some quarters, these practices lends it an air of credibility and rigorousness. Others snidely regard the as an elaborate camouflage and a sham. Psychology, they insist, is a pseudo-science. It has the trappings of science but not its substance.

Worse still, while historical narratives are rigid and immutable, the application of psychological theories (in the form of psychotherapy) is “tailored” and “customized” to the circumstances of each and every patient (client). The user or consumer is incorporated in the resulting narrative as the main hero (or anti-hero). This flexible “production line” seems to be the result of an age of increasing individualism.

True, the “language units” (large chunks of denotates and connotates) used in psychology and psychotherapy are one and the same, regardless of the identity of the patient and his therapist. In psychoanalysis, the analyst is likely to always employ the tripartite structure (Id, Ego, Superego). But these are merely the language elements and need not be confused with the idiosyncratic plots that are weaved in every encounter. Each client, each person, and his own, unique, irreplicable, plot.

To qualify as a “psychological” (both meaningful and instrumental) plot, the narrative, offered to the patient by the therapist, must be:

All-inclusive (anamnetic) — It must encompass, integrate and incorporate all the facts known about the protagonist.
Coherent — It must be chronological, structured and causal.
Consistent — Self-consistent (its subplots cannot contradict one another or go against the grain of the main plot) and consistent with the observed phenomena (both those related to the protagonist and those pertaining to the rest of the universe).
Logically compatible — It must not violate the laws of logic both internally (the plot must abide by some internally imposed logic) and externally (the Aristotelian logic which is applicable to the observable world).
Insightful (diagnostic) — It must inspire in the client a sense of awe and astonishment which is the result of seeing something familiar in a new light or the result of seeing a pattern emerging out of a big body of data. The insights must constitute the inevitable conclusion of the logic, the language, and of the unfolding of the plot.
Aesthetic — The plot must be both plausible and “right”, beautiful, not cumbersome, not awkward, not discontinuous, smooth, parsimonious, simple, and so on.
Parsimonious — The plot must employ the minimum numbers of assumptions and entities in order to satisfy all the above conditions.
Explanatory — The plot must explain the behavior of other characters in the plot, the hero’s decisions and behavior, why events developed the way they did.
Predictive (prognostic) — The plot must possess the ability to predict future events, the future behavior of the hero and of other meaningful figures and the inner emotional and cognitive dynamics.
Therapeutic — With the power to induce change, encourage functionality, make the patient happier and more content with himself (ego-syntony), with others, and with his circumstances.
Imposing — The plot must be regarded by the client as the preferable organizing principle of his life’s events and a torch to guide him in the dark (vade mecum).
Elastic — The plot must possess the intrinsic abilities to self organize, reorganize, give room to emerging order, accommodate new data comfortably, and react flexibly to attacks from within and from without.

In all these respects, a psychological plot is a theory in disguise. Scientific theories satisfy most of the above conditions as well. But this apparent identity is flawed. The important elements of testability, verifiability, refutability, falsifiability, and repeatability — are all largely missing from psychological theories and plots. No experiment could be designed to test the statements within the plot, to establish their truth-value and, thus, to convert them to theorems or hypotheses in a theory.

There are four reasons to account for this inability to test and prove (or falsify) psychological theories:

Ethical — Experiments would have to be conducted, involving the patient and others. To achieve the necessary result, the subjects will have to be ignorant of the reasons for the experiments and their aims. Sometimes even the very performance of an experiment will have to remain a secret (double blind experiments). Some experiments may involve unpleasant or even traumatic experiences. This is ethically unacceptable.
The Psychological Uncertainty Principle — The initial state of a human subject in an experiment is usually fully established. But both treatment and experimentation influence the subject and render this knowledge irrelevant. The very processes of measurement and observation influence the human subject and transform him or her — as do life’s circumstances and vicissitudes.
Uniqueness — Psychological experiments are, therefore, bound to be unique, unrepeatable, cannot be replicated elsewhere and at other times even when they are conducted with the SAME subjects. This is because the subjects are never the same due to the aforementioned psychological uncertainty principle. Repeating the experiments with other subjects adversely affects the scientific value of the results.
The undergeneration of testable hypotheses — Psychology does not generate a sufficient number of hypotheses, which can be subjected to scientific testing. This has to do with the fabulous (=storytelling) nature of psychology. In a way, psychology has affinity with some private languages. It is a form of art and, as such, is self-sufficient and self-contained. If structural, internal constraints are met — a statement is deemed true even if it does not satisfy external scientific requirements.

So, what are psychological theories and plots good for? They are the instruments used in the procedures which induce peace of mind (even happiness) in the client. This is done with the help of a few embedded mechanisms:

a. The Organizing Principle — Psychological plots offer the client an organizing principle, a sense of order, meaningfulness, and justice, an inexorable drive toward well defined (though, perhaps, hidden) goals, the feeling of being part of a whole. They strive to answer the “why’s” and “how’s” of life. They are dialogic. The client asks: “why am I (suffering from a syndrome) and how (can I successfully tackle it)”. Then, the plot is spun: “you are like this not because the world is whimsically cruel but because your parents mistreated you when you were very young, or because a person important to you died, or was taken away from you when you were still impressionable, or because you were sexually abused and so on”. The client is becalmed by the very fact that there is an explanation to that which until now monstrously taunted and haunted him, that he is not the plaything of vicious Gods, that there is a culprit (focusing his diffuse anger). His belief in the existence of order and justice and their administration by some supreme, transcendental principle is restored. This sense of “law and order” is further enhanced when the plot yields predictions which come true (either because they are self-fulfilling or because some real, underlying “law” has been discovered).

b. The Integrative Principle — The client is offered, through the plot, access to the innermost, hitherto inaccessible, recesses of his mind. He feels that he is being reintegrated, that “things fall into place”. In psychodynamic terms, the energy is released to do productive and positive work, rather than to induce distorted and destructive forces.

c. The Purgatory Principle — In most cases, the client feels sinful, debased, inhuman, decrepit, corrupting, guilty, punishable, hateful, alienated, strange, mocked and so on. The plot offers him absolution. The client’s suffering expurgates, cleanses, absolves, and atones for his sins and handicaps. A feeling of hard won achievement accompanies a successful plot. The client sheds layers of functional, adaptive stratagems rendered dysfunctional and maladaptive. This is inordinately painful. The client feels dangerously naked, precariously exposed. He then assimilates the plot offered to him, thus enjoying the benefits emanating from the previous two principles and only then does he develop new mechanisms of coping. Therapy is a mental crucifixion and resurrection and atonement for the patient’s sins. It is a religious experience. Psychological theories and plots are in the role of the scriptures from which solace and consolation can be always gleaned.

Jacobsen: If psychology is not a science, what are the ultimate odds of the development of a true taxonomy of mental illness (and mental health)?

Vaknin: Taxonomy is not synonymous with science, nor does it have to rely on it. It could be descriptive-literary, for example.

The classificatory texts in psychology — such as the DSM and the ICD — are extensive and ample. They capture the gamut of manifested and observable human behaviors coupled with self-reported states of mind.

Jacobsen: How does science pierce the veil of reality, and give a modicum of comprehension and insight about reality?

Vaknin: It is a common misconception that science is about “reality” (whatever this fuzzy concept may mean).

Science is about science. The texts of science provide self-referential allegories, metaphors, symbols, similes, and synecdoches. These texts build on each other in a hermetic loop of hermeneutics.

Ultimately, science is a methodology of constructing algorithmic narratives that enhance our efficacy in our environments through technologies. Good science is never teleological or tautological — and so, it is never explanatory.

Our uncanny ability to translate science to technology misleads us to believe that science endows us with a grasp of reality. It doesn’t. Technology is merely the manipulation of symbols to yield “real life” outcomes. Science is the confluence of texts which often resolve into technology.

Jacobsen: Cranks, Creationism, cults, Intelligent Design advocates, non-falsifiable theoretical constructs, pseudoscience, religious fundamentalism, quack medicine, socio-political dogmatisms, the god concept, woo, and the like, are hindrances to a more full and robust comprehension of reality, by more people — an accurate view of the world. How does delusion play into science, as delusion plays into human psychology, as human psychology plays an implicit part in the scientific process?

Vaknin: By far the most pernicious and hubristic delusion in science is the belief that it ultimately captures the “truth” or “reality” however incrementally or asymptotically.

The other, equally pervasive delusion, is the confusion between language and the scientific method. Many disciplines — most notably psychology and its close kin, economics — erroneously believe that the use of mathematics and statistics renders them “scientific”.

Jacobsen: Will there ever be a true Grand Unified Theory (GUT), if not a Theory of Everything (ToE)?

Vaknin: Elusive and tedious as the process may be, I have no doubt that we will end up having a TOE. Simply because both the mind and the universe are unitary. Eastern teachings are right: “reality” is nothing but illusory appearance. Underneath it all, there is a single engine of meaning.

How do I know that? Parsimony, Occam’s razor. In all disciplines, even as we have been multiplying our knowledge, we have witnessed a massive reduction in the number of theoretical constructs and entities required to account for this ever proliferating cornucopia of observations.

Jacobsen: Will we need new principles of scientific methodology to construct a more comprehensive image of reality?

Vaknin: No. The crowning achievement of the human mind is the scientific methodology as it stands today. I see no need to tinker with it.

We may, however, gain a new understanding of how to use it best. Popper’s principle of falsification is an example of such an evolution in thinking.

We should also avoid all kinds of fads and fashions that masquerade as the scientific method or abuse it.

Finally, we should never confuse the use of language (maths) with the algorithmic nature of the scientific method (for example: the requirement that experiments be replicable).

There are no limits to the applicability of the scientific methodology. I wholeheartedly disagree with attempts to exclude any aspects of reality or existence from its remit.

Jacobsen: Is reality bound to full comprehension in principle or to asymptotic understanding while never reaching capital “T” Truth by some operators in the universe (e.g., human beings)? Of course, we can include an apparent statistical phenomenon: Mean knowledge of all human beings oscillating within and between the epochs of human history.

Vaknin: Though I accept that reality exists, albeit beyond our access, I reject the notion of “truth”. The only measure is efficacy in any given environment. The kind of narrative that allows us to be efficacious and is conducive to survival is science. It has no truth value.

The extent of confusion that reigns when we discuss the concept of truth is evident in the film “The Invention of Lying”. The movie takes place in a world where people are genetically unable to lie. When one of them, presumably an aberrant mutant (his son inherits his newfound ability), stumbles across the art of confabulation, his life is transformed overnight: he becomes rich, a celebrity, and marries the girl of his dreams (who scorned him before).

But, this clever piece of comedy is philosophically muddled. The denizens of this dystopian cosmos (yes, the truth hurts) not only respond veraciously when prompted — they actually and often sadistically share their innermost thoughts, opinions, and observations. The film fails to realize that volunteering the truth is not the same as being truthful.

What’s worse, the characters in the movie take all statements about the future to be true. Yet, statements about the future can be and often are false even in a world where lying is unknown. As Aristotle has put it: nothing we say about the future has a truth value (can be confidently and rigorously determined to be true or false). We can lie only by making statements that we know with certainty to be false, but such certainty exists only with regard to the past and the present. We can make statements about the future that may be false, or that are probably false, or that we believe to be false — but we can never be sure that they are false. Therefore, we can never lie (or tell the truth!) about the future.

Still, it is not as simple as that. Truth must also be possible (there is no such thing as an impossible truth, though, of course, there are many improbable truths). Yet, the very concept of possibility has to do with the future. Moreover: only facts are possible. If something is not possible it is also not factual and nothing that is a fact is impossible.

Consider the following:

Thought experiments (Gedankenexperimenten) are “facts” in the sense that they have a “real life” correlate in the form of electrochemical activity in the brain. But it is quite obvious that they do not relate to facts “out there”. They are not true statements.

But do they lack truth because they do not relate to facts? How are Truth and Fact interrelated?

One answer is that Truth pertains to the possibility that an event will occur. If true — it must occur and if false — it cannot occur. This is a binary world of extreme existential conditions. Must all possible events occur? Of course not. If they do not occur would they still be true? Must a statement have a real life correlate to be true?

Instinctively, the answer is yes. We cannot conceive of a thought divorced from brainwaves. A statement which remains a mere potential seems to exist only in the nether land between truth and falsity. It becomes true only by materializing, by occurring, by matching up with real life. If we could prove that it will never do so, we would have felt justified in classifying it as false. This is the outgrowth of millennia of concrete, Aristotelian logic. Logical statements talk about the world and, therefore, if a statement cannot be shown to relate directly to the world, it is not true.

This approach, however, is the outcome of some underlying assumptions:

First, that the world is finite and also close to its end. To say that something that did not happen cannot be true is to say that it will never happen (i.e., to say that time and space — the world — are finite and are about to end momentarily).

Second, truth and falsity are assumed to be mutually exclusive. Quantum and fuzzy logics have long laid this one to rest. There are real world situations that are both true and not-true. A particle can “be” in two places at the same time. This fuzzy logic is incompatible with our daily experiences but if there is anything that we have learnt from physics in the last seven decades it is that the world is incompatible with our daily experiences.

The third assumption is that the psychic realm is but a subset of the material one. We are membranes with a very particular hole-size. We filter through only well defined types of experiences, are equipped with limited (and evolutionarily biased) senses, programmed in a way which tends to sustain us until we die. We are not neutral, objective observers. Actually, the very concept of observer is disputable — as modern physics, on the one hand and Eastern philosophy, on the other hand, have shown.

Imagine that a mad scientist has succeeded to infuse all the water in the world with a strong hallucinogen. At a given moment, all the people in the world see a huge flying saucer. What can we say about this saucer? Is it true? Is it “real”?

There is little doubt that the saucer does not exist. But who is to say so? If this statement is left unsaid — does it mean that it cannot exist and, therefore, is untrue? In this case (of the illusionary flying saucer), the statement that remains unsaid is a true statement — and the statement that is uttered by millions is patently false.

Still, the argument can be made that the flying saucer did exist — though only in the minds of those who drank the contaminated water. What is this form of existence? In which sense does a hallucination “exist”? The psychophysical problem is that no causal relationship can be established between a thought and its real life correlate, the brainwaves that accompany it. Moreover, this leads to infinite regression. If the brainwaves created the thought — who created them, who made them happen? In other words: who is it (perhaps what is it) that thinks?

The subject is so convoluted that to say that the mental is a mere subset of the material is to speculate

It is, therefore, advisable to separate the ontological from the epistemological. But which is which? Facts are determined epistemologically and statistically by conscious and intelligent observers. Their “existence” rests on a sound epistemological footing. Yet we assume that in the absence of observers facts will continue their existence, will not lose their “factuality”, their real life quality which is observer-independent and invariant.

What about truth? Surely, it rests on solid ontological foundations. Something is or is not true in reality and that is it. But then we saw that truth is determined psychically and, therefore, is vulnerable, for instance, to hallucinations. Moreover, the blurring of the lines in Quantum, non-Aristotelian, logics implies one of two: either that true and false are only “in our heads” (epistemological) — or that something is wrong with our interpretation of the world, with our exegetic mechanism (brain). If the latter case is true that the world does contain mutually exclusive true and false values — but the organ which identifies these entities (the brain) has gone awry. The paradox is that the second approach also assumes that at least the perception of true and false values is dependent on the existence of an epistemological detection device.

Can something be true and reality and false in our minds? Of course it can (remember “Rashomon”). Could the reverse be true? Yes, it can. This is what we call optical or sensory illusions. Even solidity is an illusion of our senses — there are no such things as solid objects (remember the physicist’s desk which is 99.99999% vacuum with minute granules of matter floating about).

To reconcile these two concepts, we must let go of the old belief (probably vital to our sanity) that we can know the world. We probably cannot and this is the source of our confusion. The world may be inhabited by “true” things and “false” things. It may be true that truth is existence and falsity is non-existence. But we will never know because we are incapable of knowing anything about the world as it is.

We are, however, fully equipped to know about the mental events inside our heads. It is there that the representations of the real world form. We are acquainted with these representations (concepts, images, symbols, language in general) — and mistake them for the world itself. Since we have no way of directly knowing the world (without the intervention of our interpretative mechanisms) we are unable to tell when a certain representation corresponds to an event which is observer-independent and invariant and when it corresponds to nothing of the kind. When we see an image — it could be the result of an interaction with light outside us (objectively “real”), or the result of a dream, a drug induced illusion, fatigue and any other number of brain events not correlated with the real world. These are observer-dependent phenomena and, subject to an agreement between a sufficient number of observers, they are judged to be true or “to have happened” (e.g., religious miracles).

To ask if something is true or not is not a meaningful question unless it relates to our internal world and to our capacity as observers. When we say “true” we mean “exists”, or “existed”, or “most definitely will exist” (the sun will rise tomorrow). But existence can only be ascertained in our minds. Truth, therefore, is nothing but a state of mind. Existence is determined by observing and comparing the two (the outside and the inside, the real and the mental). This yields a picture of the world which may be closely correlated to reality — and, yet again, may not.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Vaknin.

Vaknin: Thank you for your excellent questions.

Previous Electronic ‘Print’ Interviews (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“An Interview with Professor Sam Vaknin on Narcissistic Personality Disorder”

(In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal: June 22, 2020)

“Interview with Sam Vaknin and Christian Sorensen on Narcissism”

(News Intervention: June 23, 2020)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on the Philosophy of Nothingness”

(News Intervention: January 26, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Narcissism in General”

(News Intervention: January 28, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Cold Therapy (New Treatment Modality)”

(News Intervention: January 30, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Giftedness and IQ”

(News Intervention: February 2, 2022)

“Prof. Sam Vaknin on Religion”

(News Intervention: February 11, 2022)

Previous Interviews Read by Prof. Vaknin (Hyperlinks Active for Titles)

“How to Become the REAL YOU (Interview, News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 26, 2022)

“Insider View on Narcissism: What Makes Narcissist Tick (News Intervention)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 29, 2022)

“Curing Your Narcissist (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: January 31, 2022)

“Genius or Gifted? IQ and Beyond (News Intervention Interview)”

(Prof. Sam Vaknin: February 3, 2022)

Image Credit: Sam Vaknin.

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Copyright

2022-08-15

The Greenhorn Chronicles 14: Wes Schild on Dressage (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,876

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Wes is a Professional Trainer & Coach for Riverlands Equestrian Centre. He completed an internship at Landgestuet Celle (Hanovarian State Stud) in Adelheidsdorf, Germany. He has worked as a professional rider for McLean Reitsport in Tonisvorst. He has worked in Wellington, Florida for Alexandra Duncan and trained with Juan Matute Sr. He discusses: earliest introduction into equestrianism; specialization before dressage; dressage; a trained eye; the top dressage performers in Canada; selecting a horse as a rider; no training to full training; the average lifespan of a horse; the German and the Floridian context; and women compared to men.

Keywords: Dressage, Greenhorn Chronicles, Riverlands Equestrian Centre, The American Quarter Horse Association, Wes Schild.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 14: Wes Schild on Dressage (1)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

*Interview conducted December 30, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are with Wes Schild, a professional dressage trainer and coach. He comes from Riverlands Equestrian Facility; it’s by Whistler, British Columbia. So, I want to start from the beginning, or near the beginning, in terms of the life of an equestrian for you, because of those who I know in the industry; they describe equestrianism as a lifestyle more than anything. Some prefer the term equestrianism. Some are for the term horsemanship, but in general they will speak consistently about it as a lifestyle. When was the earliest introduction into equestrianism or the equine for you?

Wes Schild[1],[2]: Well, it would have started at a fairly young age, probably when I was three or four. My mom had a passion for horses. She had a horse growing up. I always had a love for animals from as soon as I could walk, basically. So, she got me connected with one of our neighbors and a good friend of hers who ran a riding school and a boarding facility in the area that I grew up in, in Ontario. And pretty much from the time they sat me up on my first pony, I was instantly hooked with horses and from there continued to ride and train and get lessons. So, probably from the time I was three or four, I was on the horse.

Jacobsen: That’s very interesting. Did you transition into any particular specialization before dressage, or did you jump into dressage primarily at first?

Schild: No, when I first started riding, I think most young kids that get into I would say the English discipline of riding, generally start out with jumping just because dressage tends to be quite a technical sport and if you don’t really understand it, it can be somewhat confusing for people to understand. So, I started out jumping and did a little bit of pony club riding and that sort of thing. Then as I got into my young teenage years, I switched over to quarter horses, actually. So, I started showing within a breed association called The American Quarter Horse Association and focused my time on that. Then as I got into my later years in high school, I swapped back over to the English discipline again and was focusing really on dressage and jumping at that point.

Jacobsen: How do you differentiate dressage from the other disciplines within the equestrian world? I mean, there’s hunting and there’s jumping; how do you differentiate dressage in terms of a definition as a professional?

Schild: Dressage, again, it is in the English discipline of riding. Dressage is just the art of training a horse basically. So, a lot of people will describe dressage as horses that are dancing. The horses are trained to do such technical movements within their body and in the training that we do every day. And so, to the untrained eye, it looks to someone like the horse is dancing. That’s where you will see people who will say dressage is the horse dancing.

Jacobsen: And to a trained eye, what are you looking for in the moments when the horse is engaged with a rider in dressage?

Schild: Well, the end goal in dressage is always to have a harmonious partnership between horse and rider. So, when you look at a top-level dressage rider and horse, you want to see that it looks like it’s so easily executed that you can’t see any of the rider’s aids to the horse. That they’re really together as one partnership.

Jacobsen: Who would you consider some of the top dressage performers in Canada now?

Schild: There are lots of great riders in Canada. Some of the top riders that represented our country this year at the Olympics would have been Chris Von Martels, Lindsay Kellock, Brittany Fraser; those are some really top Grand Prix riders and that represent Canada really well.

Jacobsen: How do you go about selecting a horse as a rider by the way?

Schild: Selection of horses is definitely tricky. There’s so many factors that go into making a top level dressage horse; character, the right ability, their confirmation, so, basically, how the horse is put together, their willingness to do the job, the attitude towards the rider; these are all things that would affect a top horse. And generally, a top horse, you’ll hear a lot of people say that they can tend to be a little bit quirky or they have lots of character. So, they tend to be quite full of themselves, but they always are very eager. Once you can channel that quirkiness or their character into the job, generally, you have a spectacular horse.

Jacobsen: How long does it take to get a horse from no training to full training at a national competing level?

Schild: Well, for a horse that’s going to do upper-level dressage, so let’s say you’re getting a horse that’s doing like a Grand Prix, you’re generally looking at a horse that’s around the age of 10 years old. Most horses are started under saddle, so they start being ridden when they’re three or four, and then just slowly develop throughout their years. But roughly around 10 years old, you’re getting a horse that knows their job, is physically able to do the job, they’re mentally and physically fit at that point in their life. They’re coming into the prime of their life. A horse’s prime is probably from 10 to 15 years old. So, if you were to look at internationally competed dressage horses, most of them that are doing the Grand Prix are in that age gap.

Jacobsen: What is the average lifespan of a horse who is performing in dressage? What is the breed of horse too?

Schild: The average age; that’s really changed over even my lifetime because of modern medicine for them and the quality of feed and understanding of health that we have for the horses now. But probably, the average age is somewhere between 30-35 and most horses now are being retired anywhere between 20 and 25 years of age. They’re not being ridden anymore. They’ve done their job. They get to spend some quality time just relaxing with their friends out in the field or a nice retirement life. And the breed of horse that tends to be used again in international Grand Prix or dressage; you’ll see is a warm blood. There are multiple different types of warm bloods; Hanoverian is a very popular one and Dutch warm blood. Those are the two that you hear a lot. There’s Oldenburg, and then also there are some countries that have very good success competing the Spanish horses. That’s the PRE and the Lusitano; you’ll see those as well in dressage.

Jacobsen: You did some traveling in the midst of your career to Germany and to Florida. What were the lessons from the German and the Floridian context for equestrianism? What were the lessons that you could take from the differences? What were the lessons you could take from the similarities between the two contexts?

Schild: In Germany, it is a huge industry over there. The equestrian industry is very big and it’s the epicenter for horses. So over there the structure was a very big one; they had lots of very classical riding styles, old school riding styles that have made very successful riders over many, many years. So, that was something that was very interesting for me. I learned a ton over there from some fabulous trainers that I could bring back to Canada and implement it in my daily routine here at the barn and with my clients and horses.

In Florida, it’s less of an industry Florida-wise. So, in the winter, lots of people head to Wellington, Florida. That’s the horse epicenter for winter and there’s multiple competitions within a span of three months. So, it’s a very busy season down there, many people come from all over the world. It’s fun because it’s like being at a resort with 10,000 of your equestrian friends. There are lots of different varieties of training; if one way is not working for you there’s someone down the road that might have a different idea, a different way to fix the problem. So that was interesting as well. It definitely opened the door to a different type of riding. You’ll hear a lot of riders say in dressage that they were trained either in the German system riding or the Dutch system.

So, when I was in Germany, obviously, I was riding with many German riders. That’s where I got my background. And when I went to Florida, it just opened up my eyes to different trainers that were from around the world that had different ideas and opinions on how to get the horse to the same place, but with a different method. And I also got to ride with a wonderful Spanish teacher Juan Matute Sr. down there. So, I got to have many lessons with him, which was really wonderful because he was German trained – but he was also an Olympian for the Spanish team. He just had a different view because he trained also in Spain with some of the classical riding masters there, so he just brought like a new energy and a different way to see things, which is always nice.

Jacobsen: Within some of the demographic research, which I’ve had the time to do a little bit, there’s approximately 7 out of 10 equestrians who are women compared to men. However, I remain uncertain if this is in the North American context or the Canadian, or the North American versus the European context. Regardless, there is a skew and from what I can gather based on reading interviews, there is a skew more in North America than in Europe. Why is this the case? How long has this been the case?

Schild: Well, I would definitely, probably, say it’s the skew for North America or like North America to Europe, probably. It would be that 7 to 10 number, and as long as I’ve been working with horses. That’s probably like 25-26 years now. It’s always been that way in North America. It’s always been a female dominated sport over here; whereas, when I was in Europe, I would say it’s probably closer to 50-50, 60-40 over there. There’s a lot more men representation, especially in dressage over here in North America. There’s not as much. I don’t really know why in North America there’s not as much. My one guess would be that in Europe every little town has a riding school that every kid goes to. They have riding clubs, so from a young age boys and girls are going to these riding clubs over there. So, there’s a lot more exposure to the horse industry over there; whereas, here, not every town has the ability or has horse farms. Also, it’s much more expensive over here to get your children into equestrian sports. Whereas, it’s easier and much cheaper to probably just put your young children into like hockey or soccer. So, I think that’s part of the problem as well too.

Footnotes

[1] Professional Trainer & Coach, Riverland Equestrian Centre.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Image Credit: Wes Schild.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 14: Wes Schild on Dressage (1)[Online]. August 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 15). The Greenhorn Chronicles 14: Wes Schild on Dressage (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 14: Wes Schild on Dressage (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 14: Wes Schild on Dressage (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 14: Wes Schild on Dressage (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 14: Wes Schild on Dressage (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 14: Wes Schild on Dressage (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 14: Wes Schild on Dressage (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 14: Wes Schild on Dressage (1)[Internet]. (2022, August 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/schild-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-08-15

Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Advanced Certifications in Dad-ology: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (7)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 879

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Justin Duplantis works in computational biology and will complete his MBA specializing in data analytics this month. A lifetime member of the Triple Nine Society, he served as an Executive Committee member and Editor of their journal, Vidya. He is a father of two profoundly gifted boys, whom joined him in Mensa membership at the ages of two and three. Justin has interests in high IQ communities, intelligence, and intelligence research, as measured by IQ tests. Beyond that, he is a former professional billiards player and was playing in Israel in the Israeli Elite Hockey League (IEHL). He discusses: Israel; education; worst dad joke; best dad joke; statistical extrapolation; culture; No Child Left Behind; T.N.S.; valuable memories; the preciousness of time; cancer treatment; graduate degree; and above 3 S.D. range.

Keywords: cancer treatment, child, dad, Director of Business Development, Evangelos Katsioulis, Hebrew, Israeli Elite Hockey League, Justin Duplantis, No Child Left Behind, T.N.S., The Bioinformatics CRO, Inc.

Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Advanced Certifications in Dad-ology: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (7)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When did you move to Israel? Do you speak Hebrew?

Justin Duplantis[1],[2]*: I was only living there temporarily while playing in the Israeli Elite Hockey League. I do not speak Hebrew and have since returned stateside.

Jacobsen: One S.D. on either side of the normal curve sounds too tight. Are you sure? Let’s say moving 1.5 to 2 S.D. on either side of the normal distribution, what happens in education, to teachers and to students?

Duplantis: I agree that this is too tight and wish that was not the case. In a perfect world, there would be delineations between average, gifted, and profoundly gifted. Given the poor funding for basic giftedness, this is surely pie in the sky.

Jacobsen: What’s your worst dad joke – high on the Eye Roll Richter Scale (ERRS)?

Duplantis: Figured I should create one that is IQ related, so how about: “Your child is neurotypical? That’s so mean.”

Jacobsen: What’s your best dad joke – even higher on the ERRS?

Duplantis: He didn’t steel anything he’s a copper.

Jacobsen: How do their, your boys’, similarly endowed intellects approach problems in different ways? Also, when do these comparisons in I.Q.s become increasingly hard to distinguish to the point of insignificance, because there are, probably, about 100 or so other high-I.Q. societies than T.N.S. claiming I.Q.s above 200 S.D. 15. Everyone’s aware of these. What makes statistical extrapolation techniques of I.Q.s past 140 or 160 legitimate and illegitimate, by the way, e.g., from the S-B or the W.A.I.S.?

Duplantis: My boys are incredibly different. One is extremely outgoing and mirrors the behaviors of the neurotypical child, although he is profoundly gifted. My eldest, on the other hand, has the typical characteristic high IQ personality. Luckily I share that affliction so am able to empathize with his idiosyncratic behaviors. My boys are within one SD of each other so the differences are negligible. This is especially true given their interests and strengths are quite different. Measuring IQ beyond five SD is quite difficult and agree that I am unsure the accuracy of such examinations.

Jacobsen: Is Israel a helpful culture and society for encouraging intellectual development of boisterous and silly boys?

Duplantis: N/A. I traveled there alone.

Jacobsen: Now, with No Child Left Behind, was this emphasizing standardized intelligence test scores, or proxies, or tests for things like grades, etc.?

Duplantis: Standardized test scores.

Jacobsen: Are vacancies still available for volunteers within the T.N.S. community for the Executive Committee?

Duplantis: They are no longer. The vacancies have been filled.

Jacobsen: What are the most valuable memories with your boys now?

Duplantis: My eldest son went through treatment for brain cancer last year. Although it was a very tough time, there were many moments where the three of were able to come together and have fun times. My goal was to make the treatment process a fun one. It certainly worked! Each time we have to return to the hospital for scans, every three months, they get excited about going on “vacation”.

Jacobsen: I read these statements about the preciousness of time, from some, including some prominent members of the high-I.Q. communities, e.g., Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis. Yet, this principle of the value of time might best be counterbalanced with non-forcefulness. In that, a friend had her sister die. Her father became immensely focused on the Eternal Gratitude of Now. To her, my friend, this seemed pathological, even occasionally intolerable. I feel for her, of course, you know. How can individuals who might treasure every moment to the detriment of truly living in the moment on their life’s path pull back and take note of the impact on others? A sense of valuing life’s moments without emphasizing some effervescent, explosive Now of incredible import.

Duplantis: I feel this deeply. My son’s journey is what motivated me to go to Israel. It gave me the “you only live once” mentality. With that said, it is all about the way in which you present things. I do not regularly express why I have a sudden desire to travel, which could inadvertently pressure others. I simply “do me”.

Jacobsen: How is your son now, given cancer treatment? How is your wife? How is your other son? How are you?

Duplantis: My son that went through treatment is doing superb. He had his one year scans last month and they were clear. My youngest is oblivious. I have relatively no emotions, so am just happy it is over for all of our sakes, but especially for his. My wife struggles significantly from time to time. She still has flashbacks and fears of a recurrence. We are going to a retreat, which will have occurred by the time this is published. Hoping hearing from other parents will be of comfort.

Jacobsen: How will this graduate degree help with the enrichment of your children on a personal level? Data Analytics and Business can seem removed from daddy daycare.

Duplantis: Not sure it will aid in that fashion, but as the Director of Business Development for The Bioinformatics CRO, Inc., which I have served as for nearly two years, it will be quite helpful.

Jacobsen: What are the “commonality of characteristics [that] shine through most” at the above 3 S.D. range?

Duplantis: Neuroses (joking, not joking).

Footnotes

[1] Member, CIVIQ Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 8, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-7; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Advanced Certifications in Dad-ology: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (7)[Online]. August 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-7.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 15). Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Advanced Certifications in Dad-ology: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (7). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-7.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Advanced Certifications in Dad-ology: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (7). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-7>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Advanced Certifications in Dad-ology: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (7).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-7.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Advanced Certifications in Dad-ology: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (7).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-7.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Advanced Certifications in Dad-ology: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (7)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-7>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Advanced Certifications in Dad-ology: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (7)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-7.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Advanced Certifications in Dad-ology: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (7).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-7>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Advanced Certifications in Dad-ology: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (7)[Internet]. (2022, August 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-7.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-08-08

Conversation with AntJuan Finch on Heoric Attitude, Character, and Harvard University Research Findings: Member, CIVIQ Society (3)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,926

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

AntJuan Finch is the Author of After Genius: On Creativity and Its Consequences, The 3 Sides of Man, and Applied Theory. He created the Creative Attitudes Inventory (CAT) and the Public Domain Intelligence Test (PDIT). He discusses: the healthier things; problems; the heroic attitude; the sense of disdain of organized religion; “very intense, moralistic tirades”; social maldevelopment as a consequence of autism; “incredible literature”; the geniuses who come out of extreme poverty; tests; the most valid findings; qualitative interpretations from the findings; and work with Shelley Carson at Harvard University.

Keywords: AntJuan Finch, character, CIVIQ Society, Edith Wharton, Harvard University, heroic attitude, Shelley Carson.

Conversation with AntJuan Finch on Heroic Attitude, Character, and Harvard University Research Findings: Member, CIVIQ Society (3)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What have been some of the healthier things, personal and professional life, of the family?

AntJuan Finch[1],[2]*: My immediate family and I are very close. I think that some of those developmental and childhood hardships, as well as familial isolations, inadvertently caused a sort of bond that I think should be present in every family (though I definitely don’t think that everyone should or needs to have similar experiences to get that dynamic).

I’ve always been somewhat amazed when some people tell me that they’ve always had a tough relationship with immediate members of their family, who weren’t diagnosably anti-social or something like that—I’ve always been like, “you’ve spent your whole life with them, how have you not figured out how to get along by now?” My siblings and I are all very different, and I’m really not sure if we’d all been friends if we’d met like how most non-sibling, similar-aged people tend to—but we are, and I think that’s because that’s just something that most healthy people will have to figure out at some point.

Jacobsen: What problems do you want to solve? What types of people do you want to focus helping efforts on now?

Finch: I am generally attracted to (what tends to be) just intuitively hard to solve problems. Such things are not always straightforwardly potentially helpful to a lot of people, at least, if solved in a way that I judged to be correct in some way. For example, it might be the case that the return on any con-or-disconfirmation of freewill might yield a nearly nonexistent positive return, in terms of lives bettered, given the quality of thought that would be needed to reach either conclusion accurately, which surely could have been invested elsewhere.

Likewise, I have and do sometimes gaze on problems that actually seem to matter, like the “meaning of life,” or ways to aid recovery from pneumonia, as well as cancer. Though, more generally, I’d say I’m currently dedicated towards identifying and cultivating extraordinary creativity, so as to, hopefully, empower others to produce solutions to pressing problems that perhaps most of us, including me, could not meaningfully solve directly.

For example, a synopsis of my idea on free will, recently tweeted (1)

[Nothing outside of the set of all things ever could have caused the set of all things ever, so the existence of the set of all things ever must have been determined by something inside the set of all things ever (itself). Ergo, free will exists. The universe determined itself.]

Likewise, a very innovative paper on cancer treatments, which I have no affiliation with (2)

Anakoinosis: Correcting Aberrant Homeostasis of Cancer Tissue—Going Beyond Apoptosis Induction

Jacobsen: What sense is the heroic attitude oriented towards ‘saving the world’? Or is this more of an orientation?

Finch: For a story, I once wrote, “Most people work justifications for their character flaws into their worldviews.” I tend to do the opposite: I view the world as a place where my actions really matter, as somewhere where my decisions could trickle and domino into something that could really save a life, or everyone’s, or cause much unnecessary suffering. But, I don’t view myself as very special in this regard—more so as a hero among heroes, or possible heroes. Somewhat unrelated, I do sometimes get an attitude when talking to someone who appears to be avoiding taking responsibility for the effects they may have on their own, and our accumulated problems.

Jacobsen: What is the sense of disdain of organized religion for the full siblings, i.e., the reasons? What about forms of non-institutional religion?

Finch: I’ll refrain from answering this so as to not mischaracterize their views, or get them into something they might not want to deal with.

Jacobsen: What was the character and content of the “very intense, moralistic tirades”?

Finch: To my memory, the man (the preacher) would just get up and yell for hours about whatever he was thinking about that day, which I think sometimes included the mortal sin of sodomy, charismatically in front of openly gay members of the church. Though, I usually fell asleep—maybe I dreamt that.

Jacobsen: When does the social maldevelopment as a consequence of autism break through the intelligence and become more apparent?

Finch: That something’s amiss is usually most apparent in groups of over 3 or 4 people, where apparently my brain tends to become incapable of producing statements quickly, or in a way that isn’t odd to everyone else around. But I think that that would be one of the only indications, to others, these days. It seems that I’ve become more competent with socializing as time has gone on, which corresponds to some studies on the topic, showing that autism “symptoms” tend to “improve” as time goes on, and which also matches what one might expect, given that, according to the DSM-V, autism is primarily defined by social maldevelopment, and that because one continuously has social experiences throughout their life, at least some functional or experiential understanding, or competence should develop with age, not unlike how while some learn their first language quicker than others, really everyone gets fluent by thirty—similarly, though less intensely—barring cases where’s there’s prohibitively low generally cognitive, or induction ability.

Somewhat of an aside, but my casual advice to high-functioning autists regarding social situations is usually something like “just try to learn how to be much more comfortable and casual–even loose–while talking: your anxieties and neuroses get mirrored and contribute to the awkwardness and complications.” Believe it or not, that may have helped some people.

Jacobsen: What were some influential pieces of the “incredible literature”?

Finch: Edith Wharton’s Roman Fever. I believe that my first academic essay ever was actually on that short story. For the curious, I’ll link that too (3).

Jacobsen: Do you think the geniuses who come out of extreme poverty may have compensatory mechanisms and psychological sturdiness to succeed even further than a comparable genius coming from affluence?

Finch: This could actually be a good hypothesis, and even explain the somewhat surprising finding that socio-economic status is uncorrelated with creative achievement. This could indeed imply that there’s some “compensatory mechanism” with creative people that might nullify the obvious benefit of additional resources. Unfortunately, another explanation could be that almost all people high in creative achievement are wealthy, but that hardly any wealthy people are also high in creative achievement—this would effectively “zero-out” the correlation while keeping it the case that those high in recognized creative achievement tend to have had quite a lot of resources to manifest their abilities, and get them recognized.

But regardless, my general thoughts have been that creative geniuses (of the potentially general type that I’m usually referring to) would likely tend to be very high in what most people might call a kind of “psychological sturdiness,” being extreme internal motivation and perseverance with interests even when there’s no clear reward. Though, they may not be very psychologically sturdy in the sense of having high emotional stability, as—and if the frequency of mood disorders among highly creative artists is to provide any indication—there isn’t much reason to expect mental health for creative geniuses to be, or have always been, above and beyond the norm generally.

But I think that you were getting at a sort of “edge” that could make some people from extreme poverty even more dedicated or sharp than their counterparts from more comfortable, or less extreme situations, which might elicit less extreme variations of people—which all geniuses, by definition, would be, due to being so rare. To be honest, I think that I’ve always thought that that edge would describe all very industrious people—they’re moving quickly, racing, competing against someone, maybe often themself—and have never thought that it would ever be more common in people from tough circumstances than those who weren’t. Though, it seems reasonable that industriousness could be to some extent cultivated by early exposure to straightforward input-output dynamics in childhood or young adulthood—for example: I did this, this came back; if I do more, I’ll get more—which might be less in common in “tiger parent” situations where a kid or young adult’s day-to-day decisions are more externally determined, and as a result, they might identify with their successes and failures less, and not Internalize a sense of consequence enough for it to be a moving facet in their personality. Likewise, I suppose overly harsh punishment, which might be more common in more tough circumstances, might inadvertently also contribute to a greater degree of this internalized sense of causation. Of course, another explanation for industriousness might simply be that some people are born with neurology that is wired such that they feel more stress at rest, and so more often fill their days with things to do, and when they’re creative, more creative things.

Jacobsen: How have your tests been developing so far, by the way?

Finch: Rather than continuous development of a myriad of tests for constructs of interest, this past year I’ve been more focused on collaborating with others to develop platforms that may allow for more integrated use and tracking regarding tests that I’ve already thought about. I’ve also been more focused on collaborating with others to utilize existing platforms to more widely validate ideas that I’ve had for a long time, but have had trouble getting superb samples for.

Jacobsen: What would you consider the most valid findings from them?

Finch: The most robust and interesting data that I collected in the past year would probably be the results from a large experiment that Jay Olson and I did not too long ago. In short, using several thousand participants, we found a significant correlation between the ability to produce random sequences of letters (in a few seconds) with a high-quality test of verbal originality, using words; I’ll elaborate more on this later.

Jacobsen: Are there qualitative interpretations from the findings about some of the relationships between the findings of the different tests?

Finch: In the experiment with Jay Olson, previously mentioned, we found that the ability to produce chaotic sequences of letters decreased with age less than the ability to produce unrelated words. This was actually expected, and one explanation for it was that the ability to produce disordered letters relies on some predisposition for psychological disorders, while the ability to produce unrelated words taps a bit of this ability plus the ability to recognize patterns more generally.

Jacobsen: How did the work with Shelley Carson at Harvard University develop to its conclusion? What were the findings?

Finch: The experiment carried out on twelve Harvard Extension students in Shelley Carson’s creativity class found a .7 correlation (the maximum is 1.0) between the rarity of one’s imagined uses for a common object (AUT Originality) and the ability to produce letters that were unpredicted by one’s previously inputted letters (a modified version of the Aaronson Oracle). Moderate correlations (.3 and .5, respectively) were also found between self-report (BFAS) conscientiousness and the creative achievement questionnaire, as well as between self-report aberrant salience scores and results on the Alternative Uses Test, previously mentioned.

Another interesting data point was that the class, overall—of about 50 people—had an average level of Openness to Experience that was higher than 96% of Canada’s general population.

Quite a while later, I was shared Jay Olson’s DAT creativity test. Not long after that, Jay and I worked on an experiment.

Footnotes

[1] Member, CIVIQ Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 8, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/finch-3; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with AntJuan Finch on Heroic Attitude, Character, and Harvard University Research Findings: Member, CIVIQ Society (3)[Online]. August 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/finch-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 8). Conversation with AntJuan Finch on Heoric Attitude. Character, and Harvard University Research Findings: Member, CIVIQ Society (3). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/finch-3.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with AntJuan Finch on Heroic Attitude, Character, and Harvard University Research Findings: Member, CIVIQ Society (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/finch-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with AntJuan Finch on Heroic Attitude, Character, and Harvard University Research Findings: Member, CIVIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/finch-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with AntJuan Finch on Heroic Attitude, Character, and Harvard University Research Findings: Member, CIVIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/finch-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with AntJuan Finch on Heroic Attitude, Character, and Harvard University Research Findings: Member, CIVIQ Society (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/finch-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with AntJuan Finch on Heroic Attitude, Character, and Harvard University Research Findings: Member, CIVIQ Society (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/finch-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with AntJuan Finch on Heroic Attitude, Character, and Harvard University Research Findings: Member, CIVIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/finch-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with AntJuan Finch on Heroic Attitude, Character, and Harvard University Research Findings: Member, CIVIQ Society (3)[Internet]. (2022, August 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/finch-3.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-08-01

Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 2: Hindemburg Melão Jr., Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego, Tim Roberts, Dany Provost, Rick Rosner, Shalom Dickson, David Udbjørg, Tianxi Yu, and Tor Arne Jorgensen on Integration and Contribution

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.D, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 15,448

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

This is a high-I.Q. community international discussion with Hindemburg Melão Jr., Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego, Tim Roberts, Dany Provost, Rick Rosner, Shalom Dickson, David Udbjørg, Tianxi Yu, and Tor Arne Jorgensen. They discuss: integration of the high-I.Q. societies; incentivize high-I.Q. communities to retain their unique identities and missions while connecting to the larger international communities; missing from the global high-I.Q. communities in the past; missing from the global high-I.Q. communities now; high-I.Q. communities use their mental and financial resources to focus on more real-world problems; major economic, educational, social, and scientific, problems; and contributing their talents.

Keywords: Dany Provost, David Udbjørg, Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego, high-I.Q. communities, Hindemburg Melão Jr., intelligence, Rick Rosner, Shalom Dickson, Tianxi Yu, Tim Roberts, Tor Arne Jorgensen.

Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 2: Hindemburg Melão Jr., Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego, Tim Roberts, Dany Provost, Rick Rosner, Shalom Dickson, David Udbjørg, Tianxi Yu, and Tor Arne Jorgensen on Integration and Contribution

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*Interviews completed throughout July, 2022. One missing set of responses added August 3, 2022.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen (Moderator): The precedence in compartmentalizing for categorical investigation of the high-I.Q. communities is not new. The first round of experiments went forth with a generic high-range test community with foci on North America and Europe, as noted in the previous session:

Group Discussion on the Near, Middle, Far, and Indefinite Future, First Responses Session: Christian Sorenson, Claus Volko, Erik Hæreid, James Gordon, Matthew Scillitani, Rick Farrar, Rick Rosner, Tiberiu Sammak, and Tor Jørgensen (Part One)

Group Discussion on the Near, Middle, Far, and Indefinite Future, First Responses Session: Christian Sorenson, James Gordon, Matthew Scillitani, Rick Farrar, Rick Rosner, and Tor Jørgensen (Part Two)

Group Discussion on the Near, Middle, Far, and Indefinite Future, Second Comments (Near and Middle Focused Comments) Session: Christian Sorenson, Claus Volko, James Gordon, Rick Farrar, and Tor Jørgensen (Part Three)

Group Discussion on the Near, Middle, Far, and Indefinite Future, Second Reponses (Near and Middle Focused Comments) Session: Christian Sorenson (Part Four)

This has been done with the women of the high-range, too, as the males as men dominance in membership and in presentation within the communities seems explicit and clear:

Women of the High-Range Discussion with Anja Jaenicke, Beatrice Rescazzi, Monika Orski, and Dr. Sandra Schlick: Actress & Poet, Germany; President, AtlantIQ Society; Board Member, Mensa International; Thesis Supervisor, University of Applied Sciences and Arts Northwestern Switzerland (1)

Similarly, with the aforementioned focus on North America and Europe (further on Western Europe, not bad, but narrow, so unrepresentative), there has been a preliminary effort at some focus on another area, e.g., China:

Chinese High-I.Q. Group Discussion 1: Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值), Craft Xia, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on China and Its Culture

This session will have an expanded representation in different continents. Thank you to each of the participants for entering this second session and to those of the first, or June, session for providing candidates and their votes, this will help give a better idea of general identities, organizations, and relations in the respective continents. How can the high-I.Q. communities within continents, whether continental, national, local, or international connected to the continent, nation, or locality, become more integrated?

Hindemburg Melão Jr. (Latin America)[1]*: First of all, I want to congratulate you on the excellent questions. I think you touched on several very important points.

Regarding the integration of the various societies, apparently there are some people very interested in this, others interested in a separation, others roughly indifferent. I am more inclined to support integration, but respecting separations in cases where harmonious integration is not possible. I think I have good relations with almost all the people in the high-IQ societies that I have interacted with, with less than 1% exceptions. And for me it would be very unpleasant to have to interact ostensibly with some of these people. In such cases, I find the separation of groups with good internal harmony to be preferable to a union with internal conflicts. I find differences of opinion important and positive, but conflicts of personalities on fundamental issues (ethics, religion, etc.) can be very difficult to get around. In the case of disagreements between X and Y, for example, about religion, I like X and don’t know Y. So, in principle, I support X. I don’t know this case deeply enough to give an opinion, but I have read Y’s interview that was interpreted by X as offensive. I think Y really made unnecessarily aggressive comments, and part of the comments are objectively incorrect (or at least do not agree with the historical version documented so far). Since this is a very sensitive topic, I find it difficult that X and Y could live together harmoniously. There are other cases of conflicts for more serious reasons, others less serious, perhaps some can be resolved, but perhaps most are very difficult and costly to resolve.

As we have talked privately, just before Evangelos created WIN, I was thinking of doing something similar, but I thought that Sigma still needed to “mature” some things before putting them into practice. So he took concrete action, while I was still “planning”, and his work worked very well. Since I thought his work was well done, I preferred not to continue my project, because that would have a fragmenting effect on two groups. As far as I was able to follow the development of WIN, before I moved away from the high-IQ societies (~2007), my evaluation was positive, I think he did a good job. Recently I saw that Iakovos is also doing a very good job, with some different features than what Evangelos did. Generally speaking, I am more sympathetic to Iakovos’ work, and I would like to reinforce my suggestion for him to be one of the European representatives in this Forum. Of all the people I have met in high-IQ societies, I think he is the one who has managed to gather the most people per unit of time. He has some rare and valuable contributing personality traits that are not found in the general population, and even less so in high-IQ societies. He is very diplomatic and he is not afraid to act with humility, an uncommon trait among some people in high-IQ societies. Other people that I consider very important in this Forum, as I have already commented, are Tamara and Julia, besides David and others I have already mentioned, for different reasons. Tamara has many peculiar, interesting and often correct views on different subjects that need to be discussed. Julia, in my view, has a much more cooperative personality than competitive, which is an unusual trait in the high-IQ and positive for a unification process. Tor also has this trait, which I think is extremely important. David has a humanitarian outlook enriched by a very wide and diverse experience.

I think Tor, Iakovos, David, Julia are some people who can give excellent answers to that question. Julia is founder of Colloquy, which had no ambitions to expand and “dominate” the world, like WIN, but the atmosphere in Colloquy is particularly nice, as a macrocosmic reflection of Julia’s personality. So I think it would be interesting, perhaps, if some of these people are present in the future, that they have the opportunity to answer that question as well.

In the specific case of Iakovos, based on the concrete results he has achieved, I think he is one of the most qualified people to give a feasible and well-founded answer to this question about how to promote efficient, lasting, healthy, and synergistic integration among high-IQ communities. In the case of Mensa, in some countries (brazil, for example) I think it is almost the opposite. Apparently mensa brasil is afraid that members know that there are other high-IQ societies. Apparently in some other countries this also happens, but maybe in brazil is the place where this effect is more marked.

Recently, YoungHoon Kim is leading a process that seems to me to be a unification of Giga, Mega, Prometheus, TNS/ISPE etc. I see that Iakovos is participating, but it seems that Kim is driving the whole thing. At least the invitations I have received have been from him. I don’t have a formed opinion about this conglomeration of groups yet, because it is not clear how this will evolve in the coming days, months etc. I like some of Kim’s ideas and opinions. USIA, for example, seems extremely interesting to me, and in conversations with him, Kim has conveyed a positive image to me. But in my opinion, the social relations part should perhaps be left to Iakovos. Another point is that I have seen some “conflicting” names (people who, as far as I know, hate each other) in some groups that are being formed by Kim, and I am not sure how these people will get along and the impact this may have on the integrity of these groups. I think that the strategy you adopt in this Forum, of consulting people before inviting others who may eventually harbor some enmity, is very good and even necessary, also because we already know many precedents in the high societies that resulted in splits, some of which split tens or hundreds of people motivated by the conflict of only 2 people, but perhaps these tens or hundreds would remain united in the same group if they did not have to witness and “choose” in an internal dispute involving 2 people who were the protagonists of the split. So the split may be inevitable, but the size of each cluster can be controlled by the decisions of the people running the clusters. A cluster with 100 people might split into 2 of 50 or something like 35 and 65. Or 99 with only 1 out. I think there may be some reasons to prefer 50 x 50, such as avoiding the formation of “monopolies”. But with 50 x 50 there is also a greater risk of “wars”. If there is 99 x 1, the group of 99 may be more productive, with greater synergy, than if there is 50 x 50, even though these 50 and 50 work on common goals. So from the point of view of the people in the 99 group, it may be better for them than if there were two groups with 50 each. But for that 1 person left alone it can be very bad, like a form of ostracism. In this case, since group 99 would generally be “stronger” (although not necessarily), it would be important that there is a greater receptivity and tolerance of the stronger group to receive the one left out, as long as he accepts some basic conditions so as not to harm the harmony of the group. The doors should be open to him, as long as he doesn’t want to enter to conspire against the harmony of the group and promote a breakup (although he can do this from outside the group as well). Anyway, there are many complications and there would be no way to analyze everything. If I were inside a group, I would rather have 99 than 50, but if I were person 1 outside the group, maybe I would rather have 50 and 50 or something. So from an unbiased perspective it’s very hard to judge, but from the point of view of the person coordinating the group, it seems clear to me that having 99 in your group with harmony and stability is better than having 100 with the risk of 2 people in the group causing a split by taking tens to another group.

Kim asked about Sigma VI joining the Giga network and I have yet to consult with Petri and Peter Bentley about this. I have noticed that some names that are “hostile” to most of the members of the high-IQ societies, who have had conflicts with many people, are not in Giga. This is good. However in GM Society and P 2.0 I saw some names that might cause problems. But if that happens, I think Kim will take quick and forceful action, not letting any problems escalate. As I commented, it is still too early to form an opinion. I am watching and following. If I eventually feel that I can make a useful suggestion or intervene positively, I will, as always. In general, I am optimistic about this new unification venture.

When we talk about psychometric testing, Statistics, Logic, Ethics, Epistemology, Scientific Method, Econometrics, Philosophy of Science, Astronomy/Astrophysics/Cosmology, Cognitive Science, Science in general, some branches of Mathematics, Philosophy of Education, among other topics, I feel comfortable to give an opinion with reasonable confidence, but on the subject of this question I think other people could give more useful opinions than mine. Maybe I can give some guesses about what I think might work, but I don’t have many practical experiences to share. So I think it would be very interesting to have some people participate. Besides the names I mentioned above, all the others I suggested (Joao, Petri, Wagner, Renato, André, Dieguez, Eduardo, Mario, Domagoj, Veronica, Jason etc.), I think they would have a lot to contribute, for different reasons. But for this specific topic about unification of high-IQ societies, I think Iakovos, Kim and Jason are especially important names.

Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego (Latin America)[2]*: To answer this is important to look at the motivations of the people that found high I.Q. societies. Thinking about this I believe that the solution would be if each of the societies shared common goals and principles.

Tim Roberts (Oceania)[3]*: There are an absurd number of high IQ societies. Regrettably, the vast majority of these are nothing but money-making opportunities for their founders, or just blatant ego trips and contribute nothing whatsoever to intellectual life.

The first step in making them more integrated, and therefore of some purpose, would be to reduce the number of societies devoted to particular IQ ranges (such as 170+, 150+, 130+, etc).

Dany Provost (North America)[4]*: I think that, first, high-IQ societies should stop spinning off and reduce their number. Leaders should talk to each other, putting side their ego for the greater good, and admit that other people can also be right in their own views. A committee, composed of leaders from all continents could be formed. This committee would have the task of determining the various criteria for admission and selecting (developing) tests. As long as increasingly new societies and tests are created, integration is impossible. Discussions with MENSA, if they are open to it, could lead to a “Mensa plus” division that could benefit from this integration… just saying.

Rick Rosner (North America)[5]*: Let me start my responses by saying, “I don’t know what anyone else is saying, but they are likely to be a little dumber than everybody else’s.” I have a kidney stone. I was put on Flomax, which is a muscle relaxant. It might make it easier to pass the stone, but it also makes you very lethargic. I assume my mental processes are not quite what they would be.

For high-I.Q. societies to do anything, I think more members would have to give a shit. The benefits of belonging to a high-I.Q. society are generally not meriting giving that much of a shit. Through Mega, where I’ve probably been the most active, I joined it 30 years ago. I’ve got friends in it. We talk from time to time. We get together. They are in Southern California. But any other high-I.Q. society that I’ve joined or who have joined for me. I was added to membership of some societies somewhere. There is not a whole lot of benefit to belonging to most high-I.Q. societies.

I joined Mensa in the mid-80s, hoping Playgirl would do what Playboy did, which is the women of Mensa. I could get in naked as a man of Mensa and then get a girlfriend. My thinking in the mid-to-late-80s was focused on getting a girlfriend. Most of my plans were ridiculous. That’s partly, mostly, my fault for having an autistic type of focus. People who are on the spectrum. I have never been officially diagnosed. But some people who are on the spectrum have a tight focus on something. It could be collecting. It could be Disney movies.

In my case, it was making myself socially adept enough to be able to talk to girls. That, in itself, is not ridiculous, but a lot of the things I did to service that focus were ridiculous, including joining Mensa. I went to some Mensa stuff. It didn’t offer a lot. It was 90% awkward guys like me. That’s not helpful, at least with what I wanted to do, which was to meet girls. So, it is a roundabout way of asking you a question back, “Do high-I.Q. societies deserve to have more active memberships?” I would say, “Not so much, until they can offer their members more stuff that they can use.”

I’m on Twitter. I check Twitter dozens of times a day. The benefits Twitter offers me is immediate interaction with people, the news, jokes (because I follow a lot of people who are funny), feedback (that teaches me what is or is not okay to say in the current discourse). Now, I am not always afraid to say stuff that isn’t okay. I don’t have a lot of fear of being cancelled. But it is interesting to see what might get you in trouble with people. I wrote a joke using the term “Karen,” which is the term for a white lady who falsely claims aggression by minority people to get the minority people in trouble because she is bothered by their presence. Somebody wrote me, “I don’t think it is divisive. You are playing into Trump’s and Putin’s hands by using the term ‘Karen.’”

I wrote back, “I don’t think so. I am fine with using it. My wife’s name is Carole, which is one step from Karen. We see Karen used in T.V. and movies for a bland 50-ish white lady. I’m not helping Putin by using ‘Karen.’” A bunch of people came to my defense. That kind of interaction, which happens pretty fast, is instructive. I find it interesting and helpful. I shouldn’t admit this, but I used to look at news aggregator websites more than I do. I find Twitter more and more sufficient in telling me the news I want to know. This is all in comparison to high-I.Q. societies, which don’t do any of this.

Shalom Dickson (Africa)[6]*: To begin, I want to sell you the idea that high intelligence research has a distinct role to play in the advancement of Africa’s developing nations. Thus, African high-IQ organizations should adopt peculiar responsibilities to their respective communities. There may be more opportunities to discuss this later in the interview, but I hope this suggests the context in which I might be approaching some of the questions.

The notion of integration pertains to facts about the forms of the entities to be integrated, and facts about emergent features of their integration. The status of high-IQ societies in Africa is this: In general, they do not quite exist. For instance, I started the first society “for highly intelligent, highly creative, and highly resourceful individuals” in Nigeria known as Novus Mentis. The “intelligent” train was to admit members via IQ tests. While I knew many people who should have qualifying scores, none had actually taken ‘certified’ IQ tests. This, involving the second such organization I started, was several years ago (2015 and after), and I know many people who have tried high-range IQ tests, some through my referral. It is easier to run “IQ clubs” now. Mensa Nigeria kicked off some years later and my experience with that is shared here: https://qr.ae/pvkXhf.

Organizations interested in the subject should primarily commit to improving the penetration of intelligence tests. Integration between them can be enhanced through public events such as seminars and competitions, and project collaborations.

David Udbjorg (Africa)[7]*: My knowledge about the High-IQ communities derives from internet-based activities, which are international and not local by nature. Hence, I have no clue as to what is already done on any other level to become integrated.

The only way, the High-IQ communities can become more integrated with the surrounding community, is by having something to offer, which will benefit the community in a notable way.

Many other communities such as Rotary and Lions clubs are based on local activities and members meeting up “in person” to plan and implement physical activities to raise money for their causes, hence it becomes local, but at the same time, their goals are often of international character. All the societies who are based on “in person” meetings, are losing members these days, probably because people do not have the time for voluntary projects anymore and probably also because the need to meet up physically is not needed to the same extent as before.

The High-IQ communities must focus on becoming active on the international level and find a way to funnel the many ideas into active products, which can form the basis for others to bring them into reality on local levels.

Maybe we should form an international “Think Tank”, a system which can formulate projects into various areas, present them to the various existing High-IQ communities to get responses and subsequently formulate them into “papers” which can be published, brought to the attention of the medias or handed over to specific interest groups, which will be able to use the knowledge in their work. A system which goal it is to harvest thoughts and bring them into play with reality.

Tianxi Yu (Asia)[8]*: a) Patriotism is the enemy of pacifism. If we want to integrate more deeply, we first have to put aside our sense of honor to our own country, not that we are not patriotic, and other people’s improper remarks about our motherland should be countered even if they are, but patriotism at this point will hinder deeper communication with other countries. b) Various regional representative tests need to be exchanged. In the high range tests I have done, there is a big gap in focus between the foreign tests and the Chinese tests, so I feel the need to see different representative tests from each country to get a deeper understanding of the culture and thinking habits of their IQ communities; c) Remove authority. Some authors are very vocal in the high-IQ community and claim that their tests are the most standard and rigorous. The idea that there is no such thing as a rigorous, standardized test is just plain wrong.

Tor Arne Jorgensen (Europe)[9],[10]*: If you look at this within the frame of the individual, something that I think fits best in this case, is thereby to remove the alienating stamp that these high-I.Q. societies have received from our surrounding holdings. As a world where there is no room for those who do not in their own eyes at least, have what it takes to make it in today’s society, a world where to show one’s weaknesses is not publicly accepted and the risk of exposing one’s true self-worth is therefore exposed to the risk of being ridiculed by all. For example. I was going to hold a two-hour info course some time ago at my own workplace, whereby I was going to present “this world”, as in our world within the high I.Q. community, if you can call it that. Where the course was to talk about myself, some of my high I.Q. friends, various high range tests that I had developed and the various high I.Q. communities and some of their content. Summarized, what this is all about. Out of 100 employees, only 3 employees came, luckily for me though, they thought this seemed very exciting, and completely harmless as to the course content.

The other 97 employees thought that they would have their intellects exposed for all to see as to what they themselves said “risk showing how stupid they were in front of all the other employees.” I said in return that “this was not my intention at all, quit the opposite in fact”, the course’s purpose was solely to inform as what the information sheet showed, in alignment with what the school’s management requested from me. In other words, completely harmless, no intelligence tests were to be taken, just general information about what the high I.Q community is all about was to be addressed. The lack of participants made me curious as to ask them; “why not attend the course?”, general reply back was based on the fear of being portrayed as stupid. I then said; “what about when you don’t do so well in sports, sports like: Running, football, and handball, etc., what then?” The general reply back was now: No, that wasn’t a problem, one said; “I’d much rather be crap on the football field, than to show everyone that I don’t understand anything of what you’re talking about or are going to test us on.”

Conclusion: To be labeled a fool in physical activities is in most cases not a problem as to your self-esteem, but to be labeled a fool in mental activities becomes for most people prohibitive as to their perception of self-esteem.

These are the barriers that must be broken before any general acceptance is to be established.

This does not mean that everyone can qualify for any of these high I.Q. communities, but a more in-depth acceptance and notability will thus be established among most people. One clearly sees those mental activities, harmlessly so, activities like: Crosswords puzzles, Sudoku, Rubik’s cube etc. are absolutely loved and accepted by any outside bustling community, but soon as people get an I.Q. score attached to their names, then their mental self-image starts to crumble, as they are slowly suffocated by their stifling self-inflicted limitations. Some, not all, manage still to live well with what they are told of what their abilities extends to, but many more collapse into themselves and struggle to find their way out of the maze of Misérables, finally free as to be ones again a meaningful and productive member of society filled with the lust for both longevity and rejuvenation for life.

But we the members within the high I.Q. community have a mountain to climb as to be able to achieve this, for now viewed by me, as a futile utopianism notion towards the establishing directives for public acceptance…

Jacobsen (Moderator): What might sufficiently incentivize high-I.Q. communities to retain their unique identities and missions while connecting to the larger international communities?

Melão Jr. (Latin America): As long as there is no imposition to change the individual bylaws (in the cases of groups that have some internal bylaws), I don’t think there is any risk of loss of identity. In the USA, as far as I know, each state has its own laws, and all are submitted to the federal laws. In Brazil there is not the same level of independence among the states, a single federal constitution regulates the whole country. Abortion, for example, or the death penalty, are determined equally for the whole country. I like it better the way it is in the USA, because as the territory is very vast and covers a very large cultural variety, as well as climatic variety, topographic variety, etc., laws that might be good in certain regions might not be so good in others. In the cases of high-IQ societies, as they are spread over many parts of the world, I think respect for cultural diversities needs to be considered even more carefully. But at the same time I think it is important that there is a concise set of norms that are equally applicable to all groups, just to establish standards of conduct that aim to ensure a friendly coexistence among all. This may not be as easy or as simple as it sounds. In 1991, when the world junior chess championship was held in Guarapuava, the organizer of the event was kind enough to invite all the participants of the delegations from all the countries to have lunch with him. Guarapuava has a strong tradition of barbecue, and he took them to a rotisserie. When lunch started to be served, and the members of the Indian delegation saw what the lunch was, several of them started to cry. It was a tragic scene, because the organizer was well-meaning, but he made a terrible mistake that caused a very embarrassing situation for everyone. It was a primary mistake that was easy to avoid, provided that the organizer of the event knew the most important elements about the cultures of all the participants. This is why I believe that when formulating the general rules for everyone, it would be important to have at least one representative from each group to ensure that similar gaffes are not committed.

Pliego (Latin America): Probably working together on common subjects, let’s say for example that three high I.Q. societies agreed to publish research on Biology or any other shared interest.

Roberts (Oceania): I can’t think of anything that would achieve this.

Provost (North America): More recognition from other societies.

Rosner (North America): One incentive would be, for high-I.Q. societies to thrive, is creating opportunities for members. Early on, I was mentored by another member of the Mega Society who was using the Mega Society as a talent search to find people whose talents weren’t being used sufficiently. If belonging to these societies created opportunities like that, that would be helpful for the societies. I haven’t seen a whole lot of that. What I am saying in general, if high-I.Q. societies function more like social media, or there are these thriving social media ecosystems, where people can accomplish lots of stuff, they can get recognition, fame, understanding what’s happening in the culture by being on Insta or watching a lot of TikTok or being on Twitter.

There are a lot of negatives by being targeted by bullshit on Facebook. You need more information through high-I.Q. societies for them to function like social media. Social media is about being flooded with personally relevant information. The high-I.Q. societies don’t do that. Could they? I don’t know. It seems unlikely because social media is not exclusive. There’s not a lot of stopping people from joining, commenting, and following on social media. Yet, by their nature, high-I.Q. societies are very selective. You don’t have the high flow of information via millions of people posting on Instagram every hour.

Dickson (Africa): When multiple sub-entities come together, it is natural for their union to reflect the things they have in common. However, the process, with some effort, can be re-engineered to ensure that their distinct features are highlighted instead. There are various high-IQ societies with exotic themes like poetry, music, and mathematics. They should be encouraged to attract befitting members and promote ideas in their respective areas of interest.

The core problem of mission-based IQ societies is that there is a question of whether the IQ tag is necessary at all. Could not just drop the IQ stuff and say, oh well, this is a club for hobbyist astronomers? So, the question persists, of whether there is a genuine case for IQ societies in general to have distinct identities outside intelligence research, which is self-justified. On the other hand, to not claim such a theme might seem, for those who do not think intelligence research is a worthy end, like the society in question is a club for people to discuss how much smarter they are than anyone else.

Udbjørg (Africa): No comments.

Yu (Asia): This depends on the ability of the core members of the association in non-intellectual areas. God’s Power’s success in interviewing Chen Ning Yang on 7.11 and subsequently inviting more top scholars to join the association is the best example of this.

Jorgensen (Europe): Hopefully through a desire for a better community established on principles such as: Sincerity, honesty, fraternity and finally a general agreement on affiliation with the population’s governing units. These is for me the fundamental pillars onto which the future of these communities will thrive or not.

Jacobsen (Moderator): What was missing from the global high-I.Q. communities in the past?

Melão Jr. (Latin America): I had my first contact with high-IQ societies in 1999, so I didn’t get to know what it was like before the Internet was accessible to the general public. But I suppose for the older folks, the advent of the Internet has revolutionized the high-IQ realm. Sure, it revolutionized the whole world, but since high-IQ people are rare, you’re less likely to have a few neighbors with similar interests, or even to have people in the same city to talk to about certain subjects. So for people in general the impact of the Internet must have been much smaller than it was for high-IQ people.

Pliego (Latin America): They didn’t have the tools we have today to connect with other high I.Q. people around the world as we do today.

Roberts (Oceania): Any real sense of purpose, apart from money-making and ego-tripping.

Provost (North America): I think that lack of communication has been an issue, especially before the Internet.

Rosner (North America): You just didn’t get a lot of benefits from membership. Mensa has been the most successful high-I.Q. society. In the ‘60s, ‘70s, and ‘80s, people enjoyed their Mensa memberships because it allowed them to interact at gatherings, for the most part, or through pen pal kind of deals, with other people who shared their interests and who were intelligent and/or interested in intelligence. But now, you can do this kind of interaction times a million via social media. The advent of social media has been not great news for these societies. If I were trying to juice up a high-I.Q. society, I would do whatever I could to piggyback on social media. I would create some kind of high-I.Q. Insta account that did its best to provide the kind of content that Insta users like. There could be some room for high-I.Q. stuff. Social media people don’t mind an occasional brain teaser, puzzle. There could be room to juice a society via a savvy social media person.

Dickson (Africa): In the spirit of my responses so far, good picks are societies based in Africa, those with many African members, and high-range tests by African psychometric experimenters.

Udbjørg (Africa): No comments.

Yu (Asia): a) lack of shared values, although high IQ people have a variety of ideas, these ideas rarely work to advance the IQ community; b) lack of standardized regulations, such as standards for scale creation, standards for question setting, etc.; c) lack of violent authorities, the cost of cheating is too low and the cost of maintenance is too high.

Jorgensen (Europe): Since my “historical imprint” does not extend further back than seven years past, I will let this one lie in anticipation, of what might emerge as to what is written by my so brilliant co-writers of historical informative descriptions.

Jacobsen (Moderator): What is missing from the global high-I.Q. communities now?

Melão Jr. (Latin America): Accepting a large number of different tests as criteria for admission, even if all the tests were well standardized, greatly increases the probability of getting a sufficient score on at least one of the tests. Grady Towers has already written about this many years ago, so what I bring here is nothing new, but it is a problem that has never been solved and has only become worse with the increase in the total number of existing tests. It is great that there are many tests, and it is also good that every society has more than one alternative as a criterion for admission. On the other hand, it is important that the tests contribute to selecting correctly at a real level compatible with the nominal level declared in these groups, but this is not happening. One way to deal with this is to make combined use of several tests. So 4 tests with a 190 ceiling might produce a combined ceiling close to 198 or so, as well as diversifying the content, covering a wider variety of latent traits, and coming closer to measuring something that might be more g-factor saturated. But this has also been done incorrectly.

If a person takes the Power Test, he has probability P of reaching the score needed to enter Mega. But if the person takes 20 different tests, with an appropriate ceiling each, the probability that he or she will score 176+ on at least one of those tests is much higher than P, and will depend on several factors, including the correlation between those tests, the ceiling effect on each, the uncertainties in each score, how inflated each norm is, etc. Although the calculation of P is not trivial, it is clear that P becomes much larger. As a consequence, groups with a given cut-off become more inclusive as more tests are created and more tests are accepted as criteria for admission.

I don’t see a problem with a group being inclusive, this can even be considered positive in certain respects, however it is necessary to correct the numbers that are announced on the site. Obviously the real rarity level in Giga or Sigma VI is not 10^-9, in fact, it barely reaches 10^-6, as I have already demonstrated in some articles and commented in my interview, and the reason is not only the acceptance of many tests and the inflated norms, but also the presence of some errors in the axioms assumed in the norming process. This error is also present in groups like Mega, Omega, Pi, Pars, Sigma V, OlympIQ etc.

Currently there must easily be 1000 people potentially qualified for Giga or Sigma VI, and even though most of them are not interested in the high IQ societies, there are still dozens of members in the +6σ groups. In the less high cut-off groups, the inconsistency is less obvious because it does not come up against the ceiling of the world population of 7.9 billion or the number of people ever born – perhaps 100 billion. Of course, nothing prevents the smartest person in history from being alive today, or even the 10 smartest people from being alive today, but the probability of that is low, and when you look at the questions on the high range IQ tests, while some may actually be very difficult, it is questionable whether the latent trait they are measuring is in fact an adequate representation for intelligence at that level that the test is intended to measure. In fact, it is an understatement to say that it is “questionable”. The more correct would be to explicitly admit that it is not intelligence that is being measured. I won’t repeat several comments that I have made about this in articles and in my interview, but I would like to cite an episode involving Richard Feynman as an example: https://www.ecb.torontomu.ca/~elf/abacus/feynman.html.

The article in the link above talks about abacus, but since the boy was oriental, I suppose the term should be “soroban”. In any case, this is an irrelevant detail. The fact is that a well-trained sorobanist can solve elementary arithmetic questions much faster than a true genius like Feynman. In addition and subtraction, the Sorobanist wins by joking. In multiplications and divisions, Feynman starts to narrow the gap. When the sorobanist tried cubic root, Feynman won easily, partly by “luck”. But the gist of the idea is that if you were to increase the complexity, more and more Feynman’s intellectual supremacy would stand out from the mechanical ability of the mental speedster. If they went on to calculations with logarithms, integrals, algebraic topology, transfinite set theories, propositional calculations in paraconsistent logic, soon the sorobanker would no longer even understand the concepts they were talking about, nor the processes applied in the solutions, much less be able to deduce or create offhand a method to solve something new. This is basically one of the big problems I see with the use of very elementary problems being used to try to measure IQs at the rarity level of 1 in 1 million and even 1 in 1 billion, which comes across as a joke.

It is not just a problem that they are not difficult enough to measure correctly above a certain point (135 for most IQ tests and 170 for most high range IQ tests). In addition to inadequate difficulty, the tests begin to measure a variable that correlates more and more weakly with intelligence as the level of IQ being measured becomes higher. I have already commented extensively on this in my interview, so I will try not to be repetitive.

So my opinion about what is currently missing (among other things, of course), I would say that something like “Philosophy of intelligence testing” is missing, to better conceptualize what one wants to measure and how it should be measured. I see a sad regression compared to the 1980s, because Hoeflin’s tests were a good example of content, construct validity and rigor in standardization. There are problems, like the ones I already commented on in the interview, but in general terms they are better than the vast majority of the current tests. This is kind of scary, because we have a lot more technological resources now, to do a proper job. It seems that some people have realized this problem and agree with it, at least on some points. But for some reason, there doesn’t seem to be any commitment/interest in fixing it. In conversations with Tianxi, I could see that we share many views on this issue, although we also have some disagreements. Kim also seems to agree on some fundamental points. There is a very dangerous bias in this, because people are more inclined to defend a test that they have scored highly on than a test that they actually believe measures a latent trait that is a good representation of general intelligence.

The fact is that to correctly measure intelligence at levels above 170 (σ=16), a test needs to meet a number of non-trivial requirements, but tests which meet these requirements are very rare. A few months ago a TV program in Brazil started a show called “little geniuses”, in which children do addition, subtraction, multiplication and division operations, spell words, memorize some data about flags or capitals of countries and repeat. It is very sad that they sell this as “genius”, but “that’s okay”, it is a TV show for the general public, that needs to sell ads and have a large audience among an audience that would not know how to appreciate the beauty of the Kasparov-Topalov match, Wijk aan Zee 1999, for example, or how Ramanujan’s sum can result in -1/12. For this audience, if TV producers tried to discuss in depth the concept of genius, they would have losses in viewership, losses with sponsors, etc. But it is not acceptable that a similar mistake (with a little more sophistication) is made within high-IQ societies. There needs to be a critical analysis of whether the tests are in fact measuring something that reflects well the intelligence across the range that the test is intended to measure.

When Kim asked me to suggest tests for admission into United Giga Society, I indicated Power and Eureka. Although the number of questions in Eureka is very small and the uncertainty in scores is large, the other accepted tests present similar problems. There are few questions in the Power Test that are really useful for discriminating at the ~196 level, so in practice it is as if Power has only 1 or 2 questions contributing 70% or more of the discriminating power at the 196 level, while Eureka perhaps has 2 or 3 at that level, which might make Eureka less accurate than Power for all IQs below 190 or 180, but for the level that Giga intends to measure, perhaps Eureka is as good or even a little better than Power.

I also commented on the Sigma Test Extended, and other people had also recommended the STE, a I told Kim about Mahir Wu’s tests. Here I need to make a detailed clarification, because I am against tests that measure a very narrow latent trait (A) being used to measure a broad set of latent traits (B), many of which are not strongly correlated with the one measured by the test. In this case, “A” is number sequences and “B” is intelligence. A test based solely on questions with numerical sequences will not comprehensively measure intelligence.

Since I consider Mahir Wu’s Death Numbers more appropriate to measure correctly at the ~196 level than some of the tests accepted in Giga, but at the same time I have some reservations, such as the one I mentioned above, I suggested to Kim to talk to Tianxi about this, because Tianxi is an enthusiast of Mahir Wu’s tests and would have a way to defend the use of these tests with better arguments than I could.

Very briefly, my objection is that a person might have a talent for solving numerical sequences at the +7σ level, but have general intelligence at the +4σ or +4.5σ level, for example. It would be necessary for the person to demonstrate performances on a wider variety of difficult and complex cognitive challenges before one could interpret the result as representative of general intelligence. On the other hand, in some conversations with Tianxi he made a very good case for Mahir Wu’s tests as being better than other number series tests, requiring more creativity and ingenuity, with increased difficulty because they require structurally different cognitive processes, rather than just adding up steps in the process of discovering the underlying law governing the formation of the sequence. Also, there is one attribute in Mahir Wu’s tests that I find a key differentiator for measuring correctly at the ~196 level: the Death Numbers has 30 questions, requiring 25/30 to score 196+. So there are somewhere between 7 and 10 items useful to discriminate correctly at the 196 level, which is very rare. In the case of the Power Test, if you get 1 wrong, you fail. So it is almost as if the “pass/fail” result depends almost exclusively on only 1 question.

So while I am not sympathetic to tests that measure a narrow latent trait being used to estimate a very broad trait, since there are very few appropriate tests to measure at this level, I estimate Power, Eureka and Death Numbers to be partially appropriate. Power and Eureka are appropriate in construct validity, but the uncertainty in the result is large. Death Numbers is much more accurate, but not necessarily more accurate, because construct validity has the problems I mentioned.

So I couldn’t quite defend the use of this test because I don’t believe it is very appropriate, although I consider it at least as good as Power and Eureka for the 196 level, keeping in mind the set of positive and negative aspects in it. That’s why I recommended that Kim take up this issue with Tianxi, who could justify the use of DN with more motivation.

One detail that I think is important to make clear is that the fact that I recommend Power, Eureka and DN does not mean that I consider them appropriate for the 196 level. It just means that compared to other tests accepted for admission, these 3 are at least as good as the average of the others. So there would be no degradation in the criteria that were already being adopted.

I also think it is important to clarify that I consider the criteria for admission into United Giga to be more appropriate than those for Giga.

I also suggested to Kim to change “99.9999999 percentile” to “theoretical 99.9999999 percentile”, since the true percentile is very different from the theoretical one, and the number quoted (in all societies, not only in Giga) is the theoretical one.

So basically two items that I think need to be changed in high IQ societies are to maintain credibility and consistency:

Initially make it clear that the nominal cut-offs are very different from the actual ones, in all high-IQ groups, with the disparity being greater in the more exclusive groups.
To try to adopt criteria for admission that are compatible with the group’s proposal, that is, tests capable of measuring a broad set of latent traits strongly correlated with intelligence at the level that society is selecting.

There are good articles on test standardization by Grady Towers, Kevin Langdon, Garth Zietsman and others, from a time when there was no Wikipedia or Google, computers were slow, there were few Python libraries, yet the articles were careful and rigorous. Nowadays everything is easier, but for some mysterious reason, I see some bizarre things like tests with a 250 sd=15 ceiling, where the most difficult items have difficulty levels close to 170. The number of tests with this feature is multiplying. There would be no problem with a test with a 250 ceiling, provided that some of the questions required a demonstration of the Riemann hypothesis, the Collatz conjecture or a Unification Theory of forces. The problem is to believe that if a person figures out the rules underlying a few dozen series of figures, he has an IQ similar to that of Newton, Archimedes, Gauss or Aristotle.

This is one of the reasons why I find Kim’s idea about USIA interesting. But the path he took was to separate people with outstanding achievements on really difficult, complex, deep problems from people with high test scores on simple problems. I don’t think that should be the way. I think the right thing is to try to develop tests that can measure abilities similar to those in real-world problems, that are more faithful representations of the intellectual level at the higher levels. This is basically what I tried to do in STE, and it seems to me that this is what Hoeflin tried to do in Mega, Titan and especially Power. But there are few similar attempts.

Another topic that I think is important to comment on is the integration of high IQ societies with the general population, business, government, political, social, environmental, scientific problems, etc. I believe that this should be one of the main motivations for the meeting of this forum. But I also think that it is not something that can be solved only “internally”. It would need to have representatives from the government (in different sectors, especially Education, Science and Technology, Environment, Economy), from companies (different sectors), etc., because what we can do on our part is very limited if it is not adopted and implemented. It will help little if we come up with important solutions to environmental problems, for example, but our solutions are not implemented.

These problems need to be examined bilaterally. In the first round of questions, I emphasized some points about how members of high-IQ societies can and should contribute to the common good. But this needs to be a two-way street. Rick Rosner cited a very important problem which is the lack of recognition, of respect, of consideration, of appreciation of high-IQ people by society. Why is a rock star idolized, while a person with more valuable attributes (including high IQ) is marginalized? If members of high-IQ societies are not admired and valued, what is the motivation to work for the common good or strive to save the world, so that people in general applaud rock stars or soccer players who produce nothing useful for the collective? There needs to be a balanced mechanism of reciprocity in which contributions are recognized, valued, rewarded.

When I read Rick’s complaints about the girlfriend issue, I initially had a bad impression and thought that this topic would not be appropriate for such an event. But after reflecting more on it, I concluded that it is a necessary addition to the topics I had suggested, in order to have a symbiotic relationship. If high-IQ people work for the common good, but there is no community recognition, it will be a parasitic relationship in which the general population will suck the blood of the high-IQ people without giving anything in return. It would be abusive and unfair. So I stand by my opinion that high-IQ people should strive to contribute to the common good, while people in general (including media and government) should willingly and spontaneously reciprocate this with gratitude, appreciation, admiration, etc.

Pliego (Latin America): Less individuality and more team work.

Roberts (Oceania): Any real sense of purpose, apart from money-making and ego-tripping.

Provost (North America): Willingness from the leaders to cooperate.

Rosner (North America): Pace of interaction. People are compelled to maximize the amount of personalized information that they exchange and absorb. We look for relevant information as mental generalists. As the apex thinkers on the planet, we have evolved to be – and our survival and success has been based on being – better at finding regularities in the world than any other species. We kind of love it. Even if it is junk information, if it pertains to us, we love it the way that we love salty, fatty, sweet foods. Those foods gave us an advantage.

Now, we are in the middle of a civilization, where fatty foods no longer give us an advantage. Where, before, you had to take down a bison 80,000 years ago to get some fat. It is our nature to want to flood ourselves with information, which social media – I keep bringing it up – and streaming movies, and T.V., are good at doing. You just don’t get that by belonging to high-I.Q. societies. If some rich tech hundred-millionaire wanted to create some informationally attractive website for high-I.Q. people, and people who are interested in the same shit high-I.Q. people are interested in, you could build a website or an app that could be attractive because of the amount and the type of information. Now, there are no high-I.Q. apps or websites that do this.

Dickson (Africa): Generally, there haven’t been ways to effectively concentrate the efforts and intellectual resources of society members. These series of publications by In-Sight Publishing are good contributions to this end. Today’s technology can be leveraged to facilitate deep collaboration among highly intelligent individuals. In such a system, it gets increasingly beneficial (computationally) as well as costly (psychometrically) to network agents of higher and higher intelligence ranges. A practical application of this, let’s call it, Technologically Enhanced High-Intelligence Hyper-Network is that it can form one-half of a human-machine intelligence super-system. On the other half is, of course, some artificial intelligence network.

Yu (Asia): Relative to the past, did we progress? lol

Jorgensen (Europe): To the extent of what we must be able to do, is to raise our presence out to the general population, far beyond what Mensa has achieved for its humble beginnings in -46. The general public today knows almost exclusively of Mensa. Done so, to get the proper recognition, we deserve, the main focus as to the high IQ community, must then to be how to reach out to the general population? Solidified as follows, whereby a sober and purposeful policy directive, promoted to a certain extent that of what the highly acclaimed academic institutions have achieved, universities such as: Harvard University, Princeton University, Yale and many more. Must add to that; the use of public media for promotion should also be included as, YouTube, various online medias, Podcasts, hardcopies, E-books, online articles and streamlined commercial. Membership should be cherished and present itself through a feeling of proudness, not of shamefulness, like something to hide away. We (the high IQ members) must be able to equate the respective in the same way as a football supporter equates with his favorite team.

A football supporter who wears the football club’s jersey as proudly as one of us should wear our memberships.

It should be said that a lot of great effort is being done today, done by people with love for the community, people with drive, people who turn their watchful gaze towards the general awareness. But sadly, this is not the case with Mensa Norway. Currently Mensa Norway has around 1800-2000 members, the full potential is as high as 150,000 members in Norway alone, so clearly a lot is being done wrong as to gather new members. An example of what I mean, noted, not the best example but still it gets the point across: If I ran a grocery store with a potential to reach150,000 customers, but my general manager only managed to get 2,000 customers, heads would roll to put it mildly, so something drastic must be done. Wish for the future, that jocks and geeks should be equally respected and acclaimed for their achievements.

Jacobsen (Moderator): How could high-I.Q. communities use their mental and financial resources to focus on more real-world problems in your area?

Melão Jr. (Latin America): As I commented in the previous item, I believe that there needs to be integration with different entities, each of which contributes with something that it has in abundance. High-level societies can contribute with ideas, with problem solving at the theoretical level. Companies and the government can contribute with money, equipment, personnel to put the solutions into practice. The media can contribute by spreading the word, so as to attract collaborators (from the population in general, the government, from companies) and to promote the recognition of those involved. One of the reasons that Rosner is not “pursued” by women the way they pursue rock stars is because the media has constructed the world that way. If the media wanted women, businessmen/investors, etc. to run after the exceptionally intelligent people, the media could produce that effect. The media can elect presidents, or bring down presidents, they can make an entire group into heroes or villains, and in fact they do this. In the cases of very intelligent people, the media don’t turn them into a villain, but into a bizarre and devalued caricature, far removed from reality. It is a form of veiled boycott.

Pliego (Latin America): Just to clarify many high I.Q. societies don’t rely on any money to have an internet presence for example the Hall of Sophia uses Facebook or other free services. Now let’s say that we have money probably it could be used to give scholarships to high talented individuals around the world something that would automatically transfer to the real world.

Roberts (Oceania): Any real sense of purpose, apart from money-making and ego-tripping.

Provost (North America): I think that high-IQ communities could use their financial resources (when they have) for “opening the valves” and recruiting a maximum number of people. This could be of great value. I believe that most of the smartest people in the world (universal or “targeted” intelligence) are not members of any high-IQ. People with targeted intelligence often think out of the box for solving problems, “real-world” ones included. So, recruiting and communicating would be the first step.

Rosner (North America): As you know, one of the objectives of Mensa by the people who formed Mensa – Mensa is Latin for “table” – was to sit down the world’s smartest people, as determined by I.Q. scores, and have them come up with solutions to the world’s problems. Mensa has been around for decades. I don’t know a single solution to a real-world problem that has come out of Mensa or any other high-I.Q. society. It doesn’t mean that you couldn’t do it. Anybody can come up with a solution. The actor Kevin Costner came up with a simple, elegant way to clean up oil slicks. You stick a hose into the ocean where the slick is. The hose has a hose sticking out of the water that is fairly long. You have some mechanism that whips around the end of the hose. It whips around above the water. It creates a siphon if you operate it right. Because oil is less dense. That’s Kevin Costner! A freakin’ actor!

Anybody can come up with anything. But the high-I.Q. societies have a track record, as far as I know, of not. It doesn’t mean somebody couldn’t set up some kind of system. As you know, there are various scientific prizes out there that are open to anybody that is willing to take on the challenge. There was a flight prize offered 30 or 40 years ago for $100,000 for the first person who managed to stay aloft flying via a human-powered flying machine. Not a blimp, that’s cheating, but an airplane only powered by some really good bicyclist pedalling away like a maniac. I think somebody won that prize in the ‘80s. There is an X-Prize for doubling mouse lifespans funded by people who are interested in humans living longer and longer. It’s probably a whole series of prizes. You win one prize and the next objective kicks in.

Somebody could aggregate all the prizes out there in the world and communicate them to high-I.Q. societies. That might be a way to grease the skids a little bit. The Methusaleh Foundation is one that think of that comes up with prizes for making a 4-year mouse or a 6-year mouse. They might award you a million bucks or something.

Dickson (Africa): Basically, invest in early-stage intelligence evaluation and enhancement, and start talent programs. High-IQ society members can serve as mentors for the ‘gifted’ kids. Everyone smiles happily. In other regions, students who were selected for gifted programs seem to be more likely caught doing research at some point in the future. And the principal point of potential impact on Africa’s socioeconomic story is research.

In short, they should help incentivize intellectual curiosity. I suggested a guideline here: https://qr.ae/pvMoaI.

Udbjørg (Africa): We are all getting lots of ideas, and thoughts on how and why, but it seems that all these wonderful ideas doesn’t lead to anything… but more ideas and more discussions.

It is this loop, we have to break… have the brainstorm, let it materialize into a concept paper, take this to the next level and develop it into a project description, which can be elaborated further into an actual project proposal, targeted towards the relevant interest groups, be it a business, an international donor, the medias or others. We need to have products, which the World can benefit from.

Yu (Asia): Increase your real-world influence, expand your resources, and allocate them wisely to the regional community

Jorgensen (Europe): I think that a lot of what you point out here is happening today in terms of the mental aspect. But when it comes to the financial aspect, it is experienced by me to be of varying engagement, whether or not if it is poured into the deficient. Mainly, it is due to lack of personal commitment, time, family relationships, work relationships etc. We talk a lot like just now, we have many brilliant ideas roaming around in our heads, on paper we can accomplish almost everything, but in practice not so much, by what I have so far experience within the high IQ community, as to the issue of addressing these real-world problems. But as a most welcomed refreshment, Mr. Melao is probably the first I see has a clear model that is directly aimed at what you are talking about here.

I will say I look very much forward to seeing what emerges next from Mr. Melao most brilliant mind.

According to Europe, well, little, based on what I initially referred to. My own contribution is carried forward through my regular job, so for me the conditions are something completely different.

Here it is not me personally who fork out from my own pocket regarding a big personal financial risk, as this rests solely onto the shoulders of the municipal management; and whether or not they want to invest in the offer presented by C. June Maker, Ph.D., Litt.D., Professor Emerita and her team of (https://www.globalcooperativesynergygroup.org/), regarding gifted students’ program. Furthermore, the time strain is limited as to my own family commitments, even more so than it does today from previous. I am already well acquainted with the topic of “gifted students”, as I am a teacher who works daily with these students, and as mentioned, I do not bear any financial risk, which in turn does not put further stress on the family finances.

I’m not someone who takes unnecessary risks both familiarly and financially, I like to have a complete overall layout of what I am about to embark on, never take unnecessary risks that can bite me in the ass later on. This is just how I am programmed, anything and everything is being analyzes down to the smallest minute detail even thou it does not always seem so, done so, to ensure me and my loved ones against all eventualities that may come my way through the social media. But that’s how it is for all of us, I guess. Of what other engagement directed towards the current theme in question is not known by me, but no one know what tomorrow will bring…

Jacobsen (Moderator): How could high-I.Q. societies be used to solve major economic, educational, social, and scientific, problems?

Melão Jr. (Latin America): I think my previous answer covers this point, with the detail that the term “used” might not be the most appropriate.

Pliego (Latin America): Major corporations and governments should be open to work hand in hand with the high I.Q. individuals that conform such societies.

Roberts (Oceania): I have never known of any high-IQ communities which devote their resources to solving real-world problems. And I am not optimistic that any will attempt this in the future, partly for the reasons mentioned below.

Provost (North America): See my previous answer. It also applies. Let’s try to find the geniuses in all areas (even if they don’t score high on a standard IQ test) so that their creative input could be used in other fields.

Rosner (North America): Through incentivization and by facilitating partnerships among high-I.Q. society members, and not just among members, but between members and experts in the field, like, you and I have been talking about our theory of the computational universe, IC. Informational Cosmology, which is the idea that the universe is a giant information processor, the way our brain is an information processor, but way more like there’s a basic mathematics behind both – which is unavoidable. To me, it strongly implies the universe is much older and less strictly Big Bang-y than it appears to be because a big bang ‘exploding’ from a single point and keeping going as a 3-dimensional manifold doesn’t seem like the same kind of information processing, even if the universe is made out of information that your brain is doing over its lifespan or your mind is doing is over its lifespan.

My mind at, say, 19 doesn’t seem much more ‘collapsed’ or much smaller if you were to mathematicize my brain at 19 compared to my brain now at 62. Whatever mathematical model really describes this wouldn’t have the 3-dimensional manifold of my mind now, which is my moment-to-moment consciousness, I don’t believe that my moment-to-moment consciousness is that much more information-packed that it would be a 3-dimensional manifold that is 3 times the size of the manifold that describes my mind at age 19. It seems like the information content of my thoughts on a daily basis stays fairly uniform from year-to-year. A Big Bang universe is not spatially uniform…

Anyway, I have been thinking about this stuff forever. Occasionally, somebody will try to hook me up with somebody who can talk about this shit with me from the standpoint of somebody who is a post-doc. in Relatavistic Cosmology. Yet, those kind of interactions tend to go pretty badly. The amateur who thinks they’re smart says, “What about this? What about this? What about this?” The expert says, “Nah, nah, nah, for this reason, this reason, this reason.” I was reading this week about revisiting how dark matter is pretty much invisible to the visible universe. Its interaction is super limited. It is limited, for the most part, to gross gravitational effects, gravitational clumping, the rotation speed of arms of galaxies, the lack of falloff in the rotational speed of galaxy arms (which suggests there is a bunch of matter that is invisible and exists in a halo around every galaxy).

The deal is, visible matter takes up space, has friction, interacts. When two galaxies pass through each other, they disturb each other because stuff can run into each other. They can absorb radiation. There are a lot of ways for visible matter in two colliding galaxies for that matter to be disturbed by the other matter. But less so, much less so, for dark matter. In my mind, it makes me think the universe is way fucking older than it appears to be, the dark matter could be a bunch of collapsed normal matter that started off in stars, and collapsed down in brown dwarfs, neutron stars, and black holes, because all the matter is down a gravity well. Also, it is teeny as shit. So, the gravitational force of this matter has not evaporated.

All these other tells that visible matter has, has all these collapsed matter things. It would be nice to talk to a post-doc. Say the universe is a trillion years old rather than 14-billion-years-old, you have a bunch of collapsed matter that is on the outskirts on the galaxies orbiting along and not colliding into anything. I’d talk to somebody, but I don’t want to get the “nah.” Both because I don’t want to feel like a dumb-shit or have my hopes of a new cosmology dashed when the guy or girl lists 10 reasons why it can’t be so. I would have to tap dance around those reasons or admit I’m wrong. Somebody, you have all these smart people in high-I.Q. societies. L.A. has more homeless people than any other city in the U.S. One reason is homeless people aren’t stupid. It is better to be homeless in L.A. in the Winter than Columbus, Ohio. I was on a neighbourhood council for a couple of years. I still participate.

The homeless problem is a hard problem to solve. One thing that I have learned is that the most effective way to deal with a homeless person and to get them moving out of their bad situation into a better situation is individual concierge level service. You take one person. 1/3rd of homeless might be mentally ill. 1/3rd might have a substance abuse issue. 1/3rd may be down on their luck. They are all individuals and need to be approached one-on-one and have uniqaue pasts and behaviours that keep them homeless. Each homeless person needs a concierge. One thing that makes it hard is that you can’t have an individual concierge for every homeless person.

The deal with individual high-I.Q. people is similar. You have all these quirky people. You would need a concierge to smooth the way to make introductions to convince the experts that talking to this smart person that doesn’t have a doctorate is worthwhile. You need to take the high-I.Q. lunatic and work with them, so they don’t immediately alienate the expert. If you want to maximize the utility of smart, quirky people, you need to facilitate the interactions between them and the world.

Dickson (Africa): The idea of high-IQ society members serving as mentors to high-ability kids can be extended globally, although the need typically declines as the regions get more developed.

The idea of using technology to enhance the collaborative effects of highly intelligent individuals is generic. The system can adapt to problems relevant to each region. For instance, such a network can be used to generate and define scientific and socioeconomic problems. It can also be used to develop educational blueprints for younger individuals (one’s Wikipedia history, for instance, is a primitive idea of what this might look like).

More generally, high-IQ organizations can be think tanks.

Udbjørg (Africa): Bring them into the pool of ideas as described above.

Yu (Asia): It’s hard to solve, and even though we advertise ourselves as highly intelligent people, not many of us can actually reach the level of experts. I understand that some people think their results are superior to what is already available, but if we choose to serve the community, it is the masses we should be addressing and let the masses choose. Some solutions are indeed better in some ways than the popular methods of the day, but this is not necessarily true, for example, is there any technological innovation in short videos? Not really, but it succeeded in taking up people’s fragmented time, and this has nothing to do with your expertise.

Jorgensen (Europe): These high I.Q. societies comes across as being box with regards to the human intellect. Sectioning who belongs where, meaning, that people with 130 sd15 IQ belong in that section and those with 160 sd15 belong in that section. Today’s division comes forth as somewhat disturbing to me, knowing full well that many are members of Mensa, where everyone from IQ 131-180 is a member. But all the different high IQ societies is filled with a never-ending sense of pride the higher one climbs on the intelligence ladder.

People ask me, what is your highest IQ score, instantly followed up by how many are members there in that specific society, one can then say, about 10-15 members, or perhaps only 4-5 members, it then comes back, “no more? what’s the point of that.”

For my own part, I would remove all division of these societies, and drastically reduce their current status. No, rather build towards the majority, remove the gradation, and rather focus on teamwork, where interactive measures should be the main focus. I would further like that this collaboration of intellectuals must focus on community bridging from within first between the communities and then proceed with the outside bridging regarding the communities and the universities etc. If you look again at what the broad sports has established, where everyone focuses on unity and recognition by and for all. It is recognized as something that unifies each and every one, inclusive and safe, with a clear goal for a healthier lifestyle for all people for a strengthened tomorrow.

I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again, we are widely perceived, at least in Norway, as a somewhat lugubrious collection of weirdos who mostly waste their time on nonsense that in no way contributes to an improved world system. As Mr. Melao has mentioned earlier, the seriousness towards the mainstream must firstly be addressed, the universities must be connected, the rating system must be professionalized a lot, and lastly, the image outwardly must ooze of; seriousness, professionalism, security, visible framework conditions, a targeted agenda aimed towards innovation and renewal. All this with a direct connection to schools, companies, and finally governing authorities. I also know very well that this with intelligence tests has been aimed at what someone here has been pointing out for a long time of varying acceptance globality regarding academics etc. But, before we can talk about what can high I.Q. society can do, as by the determine from the initiative formulations, then this mountain must first and foremost be overcome at any cost, only then can a serious debate be addressed.

Jacobsen (Moderator): Personally, what have you done to contribute your talents to the high-I.Q. communities and outside of them to general society?

Melão Jr. (Latin America): I’m not sure I would be able to separate well which contributions were exclusively for high-IQ societies and which were for society in general. Maybe the Sigma Test and the later versions, especially the Sigma Test Extended, have more impact inside high-IQ societies than outside, I’m not sure yet, because maybe if there were more people outside high-IQ societies who learned about the STE, it could have a greater impact outside than inside, as well as promoting a broader connection, bringing more qualified people from outside in.

Many people reject IQ tests for the reasons I commented above. Why don’t Perelman, Tao, Witten, Thorne participate in high IQ societies? I think one reason is because they don’t find it stimulating to spend months working on solving sequences of figures, but maybe some of them find it interesting to work on solving problems like those in Gardner’s or Gamow’s books. So the STE could be a vehicle to bring together great intellectuals who are currently estranged from high-IQ societies, as well as to revise some negative views that many people outside high-IQ societies have about our groups.

The norming method I described in 2000 and applied from 2003 on may also be a more relevant contribution within high-IQ societies than outside, because although the same method is also applicable to any psychometric test, the main advantage lies in the correction of scores much above 3 or 4 standard deviations above the mean. For scores below +2σ there is practically no advantage.

Outside of high IQ societies, I think some of my most relevant contributions are the correction of the formula for BMI (not for difficulty, but for comprehensiveness) and Melao_index as a risk-adjusted performance measure for investments. I find it difficult to enumerate which ones are more important, as well as to measure the importance. In the case of BMI, for example, it reaches hundreds of millions of people, but how many of them learned about it? So basically I did my part, but the media and the entities responsible for disseminating the correction did not do their part, boycotting humanity and reducing the effective impact. So the latent potential impact is to benefit about 400 million people, provided that these people learn about it.

In the case of Melao_index, the largest investment consulting company in Brazil, with 350,000 subscribers, published an article by Bruno Mérola comparing my Melao_index with William Sharpe’s index (1990 Nobel Prize), and showing that my index solves several problems that were present in Sharpe’s index. They also incorporated the Melao_index in their platform. But the conduct of this company is a rare case, because it depends on the ability of the people connected to these companies, in this case Bruno Mérola, who recognized the importance and the differentials of Melao_index compared to other existing indexes. Most of the time this is not the case. CEOs, CTOs, CIOs of large companies are not very capable of identifying and correctly judging these things. It is much easier to simply keep inadvertently repeating the use of the Sharpe ratio, which all the big banks in the world use, than to scrutinize the various existing ratios and rank them according to the efficiency of each one, to identify which are in fact the best, because this is a job that requires time, effort, competence, which are rare attributes. That is why other of my works, which could also help people in different areas, end up being less known. There is a short list here https://www.saturnov.org/autor and a more detailed list here https://www.sigmasociety.net/hm

Besides these large-scale and wide-reaching works (as long as each institution does its part), I have also been involved in some smaller welfare works. Brazil is a relatively poor country, with a fair number of people living on the streets. That is why in the winter (not during the pandemic) I used to take blankets to distribute among the homeless. My mother and I took sweets to children in orphanages. After my mom passed away, I continued taking sweets with my girlfriend to orphanages and hospitals. I coordinated some projects to support the victims of landslides in Santa Catarina, the victims of the tsunami in Indonesia in 2004, among other things.

One detail that I think is important to comment on is a “lesson” that I received from my parents and that maybe many other people also received from their parents. My mother used to say that philanthropy is something you do, but you don’t publicize it. There is a culture strongly oriented to support this “prohibition”, but this is a mistake with several negative effects, among which I will mention two: the first is that if a person is admired by other people, his attitudes are usually imitated, and if he hides the good he does, this reduces the dissemination of the practice of good. The second problem is that living organisms are driven by incentives (this premise is thoroughly analyzed by Steven Levitt in Freakonomics), so if a person does a good deed, but there is no reward for it, he is less motivated to repeat it. The reward can be the very well-being that he feels after doing the good deed, or the look of gratitude from the people or animals that receive the good deed. But there are many cases where person “A” does a good deed systematically, but nobody sees it and nobody knows about it, while another person “B” just does a calculated “good deed” strategically in the presence of another person “C” to get a reward, and gets it. The person rewarded is the one who had it less meritorious, but who advertised it ostensibly. People who know “A” and “B” realize that “B” was rewarded for doing a good deed that “A” does constantly, while “A” received nothing. This will encourage people to imitate “B” instead of imitating “A”. In addition, “A” will be less likely to survive because he will receive fewer incentives, less recognition, etc. The conduct of “B” to do calculated good with the primordial goal of receiving a reward is a serious ethical misconduct. However, if “A” does good with the primary goal of the good in itself, I see no problem with “A” not concealing the good he has done. In fact, it is positive that “A” does not hide it, for the reasons I mentioned above.

Pliego (Latin America): I founded the Hall of Sophia in 2019, I have designed several high range I.Q. tests, through the Hall of Sophia Facebook I have promoted some of his history and I think some of this has draw a lot of attention into the community from the real world.

Roberts (Oceania): I don’t believe, with one exception, that this is possible. If you look at microbiology, or endocrinology, or aerospace engineering, or quantum physics, these all require a concentrated training in the discipline. Advances come from those with a very lengthy period of either academic pursuits, or on-the-job training, or both. Just a high IQ will not cut it.

The one possible exception is the area of number theory, where detailed real-world knowledge may not be required. Many unsolved problems are very simple to understand, such as the Goldbach Conjecture, and Grimm’s Conjecture, and the Legendre Conjecture, and the Collatz Conjecture. All of these can be Googled, and should be able to be easily understood by those with a high IQ within an hour or two at most.

So, some twenty years ago, I set up the Unsolved Problems web site, where twenty-three such problems are described, all on a single page. I have in that time regularly advertised the site within high IQ societies, and to high IQ individuals. But alas, in tems of results, all efforts haveso far been in vain. So it appears in the area of number theory too, a high IQ is insufficient.

Provost (North America): Unfortunately, my schedule is quite full and I can’t say that I have contributed to the high-IQ communities so far. As for the general society, it’s mainly within my work that I contributed, especially by developing sophisticated financial planning and optimization tools.

Rosner (North America): Ugh, not a lot. I edited Noesis. The journal of the Mega Society, I was a very sloppy editor. If somebody sent something, I stuck it in there. Except for one guy who was a retired shop teacher or math teacher, he sent 12 pages a month disproving Einstein. That shit got tiresome pretty fast. Everyone but him, I would stick their shit in there. If you wanted to reach a little bit, I would say I have contributed to high-I.Q. people by being a T.V. writer. It is a tough job. You need to have good writing skills and good social skills because it is collaborative. The best smoozers move to L.A. to get into show biz. When you are working on a show with higher functioning autistic crappy social skills, you are dealing with people who have reverse autism. Their social skills are just dead on. You hear about ruthless people in show biz. You hear about them because they have to be in some cases. There are a lot of nice people in L.A. But there are some pricks. They can be because they have a) power in many cases and their b) reverse autism. Their extreme sociability. Their ability to talk their into and out of shit lets them.

In my family, there are two types of people. The people who have good social skills and high self-esteem and are pretty casual about dumping at romantic partners because they know with their skills and hotness that they can get somebody really fast if they want. Then there are people with low self-esteem and worse social skills, like myself, who work at it. My wife and I have been married for 31 years and in couple’s counsellnig for 28 years. Not yelling or that often, but relationship maintenance with a counsellor. That’s the two extremes. The person who has no game and works to hold onto relationships and the perso0n who has super lots of game and games everybody.

For me, as someone with not great social skills, to be great on T.V., is a “fuck you” to the non-high-I.Q. world, “I did it, fuckers.” I would hope someone with bad social skills and a high-I.Q. would be inspired by that. I’ve done four pilots for shows. I’ve been frustrated by there being no reality shows focusing on high-I.Q. people. I’ve done my part. I’ve done a lot of pilots. I’ve pitched a lot of reality shows that have focused on smart people. Nobody will buy these shows. I think mostly because most people don’t buy most of everything. I talked to a very experineced producer at the gym, “Before you give money to a pilot, what is the average number of pitch meetings you need to go to?” He said, “100.”

The average person who takes pitches at a network might take a 1,000 pitch ideas in a year and greenlight a pilot for a dozen, two dozen, of them. Maybe, two of those get to series. So, probably, a reason that my high-I.Q. shit hasn’t made it to series is because most don’t. I pitched one to one motherfucker who was slouched in his chair. He didn’t even get out of his chair to 12 ideas, which happened to two or three guys with this guy. He barely woke himself up and said, “Give me Cops that isn’t Cops.” Which is a show that is sending a camera crew out with cops, he wanted something super easy that you could keep on the air for 15 years. So, anyway, I tried to do my part.

My principle of that is that reality shows are, for the most part, about finding a bunch of assholes and following them around. My big idea is that smart people can be assholes too. You can find a bunch of smart assholes and follow them around. You can do more with them because they are smart. It can be assholes doing puzzles. If they don’t solve the genius house, you put 8 so-called geniuses in a house and to get anything – clothing, food, bedding, blankets, a T.V., communication with loved ones – they have to solve puzzles. They are naked and afraid in this house until they solve these brain teasers. If they fail, where there’s all these puzzle boxers, they explode and they get covered in glitter or flour, so they’re naked, afraid, and covered in glitter. That’s a great show. So, there you go.

Dickson (Africa): I am able to identify critical ideas and convince people that something is important.

I have convinced a number of people to try high-range IQ tests, had some useful discussions within high-IQ societies, and involved some members in personal projects. Other activities include introducing some peculiar problems, sharing ideas on developing tests, and creating some logic material that members tend to enjoy.

A major block of my research has been a decades-long investigation into the nature of Nigeria and eventually Africa’s socioeconomic predicament. I continue to write about my thoughts in this area, which tend to include precisely defined problems and specific solutions. Among these is noting the role of research and its dependence on “talent configuration”. One of the writings on this subject is here: https://shalomdickson.com/banking-on-knowledge-nigerias-path-to-prosperity/.

Udbjørg (Africa): I have provided very little to the High- IQ communities beside instigating the now defunct organization “High IQ for Humanity”, who set out to unite several High IQ communities and persons towards the common goal of finding and assisting highly intelligent children in developing countries and to find and provide information on brain drain from developing countries. It is still valid issues, however, lesson learned was, that it would not be possible to do on a solemnly voluntary basis, as people will burn out in their efforts after a few years. Financing has to be part of the game.

As a professional, I have been privilege to work with many different types of projects in developing countries. Outsourcing from Denmark in relation to 3D visualizations, assisting others to do the same, and liaising between partners in setting up factories for auto destructible syringes… I actually designed a destructible syringe, but it never materialized.

I have made Solar PV projects in Zambia, and Energy Efficiency projects in South Africa, Indonesia, Botswana and other places. As part of this, I designed Energy Efficiency competitions between schools and public companies in Botswana, and did the same between schools and private homes in Jakarta, Indonesian.

I was co- instigating “Architects without Borders”, back in 2002 and it is still working as an organization, who provide Architectural knowledge to developing countries.

As side projects, I have investigated, numerous different topics; Ship breaking, The supply chain for pineapple farmers in Chittagong Hill Tracks, the burned tile industry in and around Dhaka, A solar driven “EE knowledge” catamaran for the Indonesian archipelago, life and products from garbage dumps in South Africa, installation of a “micro household waste, biogas digester, at a poor community school outside Pretoria. And investigations to make a local digester based on common “shelf” components.

I have ideas, which could help the people living in illegal settlements and squatter camps in Africa and other poor communities, they could be dusted of an become the type of projects, that could be handed over to relevant NGOs and others for implementations.

Yu (Asia): Personally, I am currently working on a new revolution for the Chinese IQ community: a) spreading new ideas (web 3.0) and technologies to the community (blockchain) at this stage, because I think it fits very well with the identity of the high IQ community; b) branding the IQ community 3.0 as a high-end mystery. In the past IQ community 2.0/1.0, representatives of the Chinese IQ community pushed high IQ people into variety shows. But now it’s proving that this path doesn’t work and destroys the mystique people have about high IQ people. It may be cruel to say so, but high IQ people and ordinary people are not the same species, and may once be able to get along amicably, but now ordinary people are too malicious to high IQ people, so it is most important to keep the mystery and strengthen the high-end construction; c) Make the Chinese IQ community more international, once because of some negative factors, which caused Mensa China to permanently withdraw from this stage in China. Even today, the Chinese IQ community does not have much exposure in the world. Now is the chance to bring the Chinese community back into the world view.

Jorgensen (Europe): In the time that I have had knowledge about the various online communities within high intelligence, my focus has been directed towards promoting these various communities to people outside of these communities, aka the general population.

My way of engagement is done through various mediums, collectively presented in, newspaper interviews, local radio interview and a YouTube interview, lastly, lots of online interviews have also been conducted. All these interviews are then being broadcasted through mediums, mediums like, Facebook, LinkedIn, and Instagram among others. Also, as I initially mentioned, in local newspapers and local radio shows, purposely initiated, so people in my workplace and my local community would be able to form a better image of what the high IQ world is all about.

I have also focused on creating awareness of gifted students with regards to the Norwegian educational institutions. My personal commitment is mainly to do with the fact that I am a schoolteacher, and that I see the dire need for an elevated attention towards this lack of focus by the municipalities, not just in my own hometown, but across the nation regarding this above-mentioned issue of, pupils with extraordinary learning-potential and the lack of directive initiatives by the Norwegian municipalities to propagate correctness of these students’ educational rights.

Current status:

The willingness for facilitate proper attention and the willingness to propagated corrective measurements as to above-mentioned issue is not on the agenda of the municipalities today.

This has now “hopefully”, accumulated into a collaboration underway with Professor June Maker and her brilliant team, and my hometown’s schools’ municipality.

The objective is to try to facilitate from here my homebase, a nationwide referendum regarding these gifted students and their need for a better and more properly adapted educational directive. As all students have the right to a properly adapted education within the public schools across the nation, that again makes it possible for these students to reach for their own inherent qualities.

My engagements take up a lot of my time, as well as these interviews with Scott Jacobsen and In-Sight Journal, both assignments are very exciting as to learn from and to evolve within.

Footnotes

[1] Hindemburg Melão Jr. is the author of solutions to scientific and mathematical problems that have remained unsolved for decades or centuries, including improvements on works by 5 Nobel laureates, holder of a world record in longest announced checkmate in blindfold simultaneous chess games, registered in the Guinness Book 1998, author of the Sigma Test Extended and founder of some high IQ societies.

[2] Inspired by the M-Classification devised by Nikos Lygeros and the myths of the high I.Q. community Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego founded the Hall of Sophia in January 16 of 2019 which is conceived as a center of intellectual inquiry whose principal goals are to encourage and promote, the study of extreme intelligence**, the recognition of extreme intelligence as a driver of humanity, the recognition of individuals with extreme cognitive abilities, the creation of generic cognitive models by mathematics*, the creation of paradigms by linguistic formalizations (in the sense of Kuhn)*, the production of intellectual works on the field of mathematics, the production of intellectual works on the field of sciences, the production of intellectual works on the field of theology, the production of intellectual works on the field of philosophy, the production of intellectual works on the field of art, his existence is a meta-proof of the existence of the g-factor.**

*Points 6.4.8, 6.4.9 of the M-Classification

**Points 6.4.1, 6.6 of the M-Classification

http://www.lygeros.org/mclassi.html

[3] Tim Roberts self-describes in “A Brief and Almost True Biography” as follows: I was definitely born lower-middle class. Britain was (and probably still is) so stratified that one’s status could be easily classified. You were only working class if you lived in Scotland or Wales, or in the north of England, or had a really physical job like dustbin-man. You were only middle class if you lived in the south, had a decent-sized house, probably with a mortgage, and at work you had to use your brain, at least a little. My mother was at the upper end of lower-middle class, my father at the lower. After suffering through the first twenty years of my life because of various deleterious genetically-acquired traits, which resulted in my being very small and very sickly, and a regular visitor to hospitals, I became almost normal in my 20s, and found work in the computer industry. I was never very good, but demand in those days was so high for anyone who knew what a computer was that I turned freelance, specializing in large IBM mainframe operating systems, and could often choose from a range of job opportunities. As far away as possible sounded good, so I went to Australia, where I met my wife, and have lived all the latter half of my life. Being inherently lazy, I discovered academia, and spent 30 years as a lecturer, at three different universities. Whether I actually managed to teach anyone anything is a matter of some debate. The maxim “publish or perish” ruled, so I spent an inordinate amount of time writing crap papers on online education, which required almost no effort. My thoughts, however, were always centred on such pretentious topics as quantum theory and consciousness and the nature of reality. These remain my over-riding interest today, some five years after retirement. I have a reliance on steroids and Shiraz, and possess an IQ the size of a small planet, because I am quite good at solving puzzles of no importance, but I have no useful real-world skills whatsoever. I used to know a few things, but I have forgotten most of them.”

[4] Dany Provost is a member of a few high IQ societies including Giga Society of Paul Cooijmans, Mega and Sigma V. Having a degree in music, he played in various bands for many years. Formally educated as an actuary and a tax specialist, he is known in the province of Quebec, Canada, for being one of the top experts in the field of financial planning. He wrote two books on the subject and has been a columnist for 12 years in business publications. Wanting to have the broadest model for the Universe, he does not believe in materialism. Curious in a variety of fields, his main interests range from physics to records of all kinds, especially in athletic achievements. Father of four and grand-father of three, he is unable to remain serious for too long because, as he likes to say: “It’s best to laugh, we won’t get out of it alive, anyway”.

[5] Rick G. Rosner, according to some semi-reputable sources gathered in a listing here, may have among America’s, North America’s, and the world’s highest measured IQs at or above 190 (S.D. 15)/196 (S.D. 16) based on several high range test performances created by Christopher Harding, Jason Betts, Paul Cooijmans, and Ronald Hoeflin. He earned 12 years of college credit in less than a year and graduated with the equivalent of 8 majors. He has received 8 Writers Guild Awards and Emmy nominations, and was titled 2013 North American Genius of the Year by The World Genius Directory with the main “Genius” listing here. He has written for Remote Control, Crank Yankers, The Man Show, The Emmys, The Grammys, and Jimmy Kimmel Live!. He worked as a bouncer, a nude art model, a roller-skating waiter, and a stripper. In a television commercial, Domino’s Pizza named him the “World’s Smartest Man.” The commercial was taken off the air after Subway sandwiches issued a cease-and-desist. He was named “Best Bouncer” in the Denver Area, Colorado, by Westwood Magazine. Rosner spent much of the late Disco Era as an undercover high school student. In addition, he spent 25 years as a bar bouncer and American fake ID-catcher, and 25+ years as a stripper, and nearly 30 years as a writer for more than 2,500 hours of network television. Errol Morris featured Rosner in the interview series entitled First Person, where some of this history was covered by Morris. He came in second, or lost, on Jeopardy!, sued Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? over a flawed question and lost the lawsuit. He won one game and lost one game on Are You Smarter Than a Drunk Person? (He was drunk). Finally, he spent 37+ years working on a time-invariant variation of the Big Bang Theory. Currently, Rosner sits tweeting in a bathrobe (winter) or a towel (summer). He lives in Los Angeles, California with his wife, dog, and goldfish. He and his wife have a daughter. You can send him money or questions at LanceVersusRick@Gmail.Com, or a direct message via Twitter, or find him on LinkedIn, or see him on YouTube.

[6] Shalom Dickson is a fundamental thinker with interests in cognition, philosophy, sociology, innovation-powered entrepreneurship, and ethical science. His friends regard him as a visionary with a knack for purpose-driven leadership. He is the founder of internovent, Nigeria’s first social innovation company designing solutions for developing nations to attain a balanced global socioeconomic advancement. One of these is Paperloops, Nigeria’s first FinTech company offering holistic financial management and literacy for teens. He is also the founding president of Novus Mentis, Nigeria’s first high-intelligence network with a mission to Map-out Nigeria’s Brain for optimized creative output. Novus Mentis has launched the Sound Mind Project to optimize cognitive ability and stimulate intellectual interest in Africa. Shalom is Nigeria’s first member of the exclusive Glia Society and an alumnus of Nigeria’s first cohort of the Founder Institute.

[7] David Udbjørg, self-described as follows, “Danish/American, Norwegian in my childhood. Married, 4 kids, and a similar amount of grandkids. Master in Architecture from The Royal Academy of Fine Arts in Copenhagen. Lived in seven countries, worked in 30+ and traveled, what equals 36 times around the globe. Fairly OK with Scandinavian languages, English, German and French, other languages less so. Worked, with architecture, sustainability, energy efficiency, 3D visualizations and auto destructible syringes, competition design and lots of other things. Currently, working as an Architect at the Danish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, taking good care of the Danish embassies around the World. Made a few inventions; a foot operated pointing device and an auto destructible syringe (none of them went into productions). I have stared many different projects, where the most important ones are co-instigator of ‘Architects Without Borders’, still in action, Instigator of a public contemporary art gallery, which has been running for 40 + years and ‘High IQ for Humanity’ (HIQH), which is now defunct. As an artist, I have exhibited in several countries, but mostly in Denmark. I make paintings, both portraits and contemporary. Stained glass, bronze, furniture’s, deconstructions and mixed medias, as well. I have written a couple of books and composed a few pieces of music. I am board member, at the Art club of the Danish Ministry of Foreign affairs, and I like to consider myself a skilled photographer and videographer. I have sold my work to ‘Un Explained’ and ‘Ancient Aliens’ and I have been features on CNN ‘Inside Africa’ with my visits to garbage dumps in Africa. As an adventurer, I am mostly focusing on indigenous tribes, garbage dumps, ship breaking places, funerals, medicine men and oracles, but I also like to visit schools and kindergartens in developing countries, occasionally I visit volcanos and caves as well. I’m one of the very few Scandinavian members of ‘Los Angeles Adventurers Club’.”

[8] Tianxi Yu (余天曦) is a Member of God’s Power, CatholIQ, Chinese Genius Directory, EsoterIQ Society, Nano Society, and World Genius Directory.

[9] Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies, including World Genius Directory, NOUS High IQ Society, 6N High IQ Society just to name a few. Tor Arne was also in 2019, nominated for the World Genius Directory 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe.

[10] Individual Publication Date: August 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 2: Hindemburg Melão Jr., Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego, Tim Roberts, Dany Provost, Rick Rosner, Shalom Dickson, David Udbjørg, Tianxi Yu, and Tor Arne Jorgensen on Integration and Contribution[Online]. August 2022; 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 1). Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 2: Hindemburg Melão Jr., Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego, Tim Roberts, Dany Provost, Rick Rosner, Shalom Dickson, David Udbjørg, Tianxi Yu, and Tor Arne Jorgensen on Integration and Contribution. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 2: Hindemburg Melão Jr., Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego, Tim Roberts, Dany Provost, Rick Rosner, Shalom Dickson, David Udbjørg, Tianxi Yu, and Tor Arne Jorgensen on Integration and Contribution. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 2: Hindemburg Melão Jr., Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego, Tim Roberts, Dany Provost, Rick Rosner, Shalom Dickson, David Udbjørg, Tianxi Yu, and Tor Arne Jorgensen on Integration and Contribution” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 2: Hindemburg Melão Jr., Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego, Tim Roberts, Dany Provost, Rick Rosner, Shalom Dickson, David Udbjørg, Tianxi Yu, and Tor Arne Jorgensen on Integration and Contribution” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 2: Hindemburg Melão Jr., Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego, Tim Roberts, Dany Provost, Rick Rosner, Shalom Dickson, David Udbjørg, Tianxi Yu, and Tor Arne Jorgensen on Integration and Contribution’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 2: Hindemburg Melão Jr., Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego, Tim Roberts, Dany Provost, Rick Rosner, Shalom Dickson, David Udbjørg, Tianxi Yu, and Tor Arne Jorgensen on Integration and Contribution’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 2: Hindemburg Melão Jr., Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego, Tim Roberts, Dany Provost, Rick Rosner, Shalom Dickson, David Udbjørg, Tianxi Yu, and Tor Arne Jorgensen on Integration and Contribution” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.D (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 2: Hindemburg Melão Jr., Guillermo Alejandro Escárcega Pliego, Tim Roberts, Dany Provost, Rick Rosner, Shalom Dickson, David Udbjørg, Tianxi Yu, and Tor Arne Jorgensen on Integration and Contribution [Internet]. (2022, August 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-2.

License

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2022-08-01

Women of the High-I.Q. Communities 1: Clelia Albano, Anja Jaenicke, Kate Jones, Monika Orski, Veronica Palladino, M.D., and Dr. Sandra Schlick on Nature, Social Media, Tests, and Women

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.D, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 5,275

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

This is a high-I.Q. community discussion with Clelia Albano, Anja Jaenicke, Kate Jones, Monika Orski, Veronica Palladino, and Sandra Schlick. They discuss: high-I.Q. societies tend toward males as men; interest in taking any of these various tests and joining the high-I.Q. communities; wordsmiths; women geniuses; women artists and musicians; Online poetry; and high-I.Q. communities to attract more women.

Keywords: Anja Jaenicke, artists, Clelia Albano, females, genius, high-I.Q. communities, Kate Jones, males, men, Monika Orski, Sandra Schlick, social media, Veronica Palladino, women.

Women of the High-I.Q. Communities 1: Clelia Albano, Anja Jaenicke, Kate Jones, Monika Orski, Veronica Palladino, M.D., and Dr. Sandra Schlick on Nature, Social Media, Tests, and Women

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*Interviews completed throughout August, 2022.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Women of the High-Range was one initiative in 2020 with a production here:

Women of the High-Range Discussion with Anja Jaenicke, Beatrice Rescazzi, Monika Orski, and Dr. Sandra Schlick: Actress & Poet, Germany; President, AtlantIQ Society; Board Member, Mensa International; Thesis Supervisor, University of Applied Sciences and Arts Northwestern Switzerland (1)

High-I.Q. communities and societies seem to be men majority. As such, this would justify a complementary session or a compensatory group discussion with accomplished women of the high-I.Q. communities. There is a parallel international session. A candidate recommendation and vote structure has been in place. The outcome, as a natural environment experiment, is all men. Without a moral analysis of this phenomenon, as a factual observation, once noted, a participant began to recommend several women from the high-I.Q. communities’ history. In other words, once indicated, corrective course appears serious if more gender balance is the desired outcome in the months ahead. It’s an apparent natural non-conscious consequence of social circles and relations within high-I.Q. communities. Regardless, high-I.Q. societies contain more men than women with the high-I.Q. societies with the highest cut-offs having much more men than women as a ratio, even more so than lower cognitive rarities. That’s a demographic fact of theoretical I.Q. rarity of high-I.Q. societies, for the most part. Individuals who join high-I.Q. societies tend toward males as men, in short. To open on this sociological note, as was asked to the previous group with some uncertainty as to the reason, why? Any updated thoughts to returning participants?

Clelia Albano[1]*: It is true. I recall to my mind that several Hollywood actresses and famous singers who are considered gifted such as Sharon Stone, Geena Davis, Madonna, Shakira and Jodie Foster constitute a small percentage in comparison with their fellow male actors with an high IQ, but we should seriously consider if the difference is given by the fact that men might be more inclined to take the tests or not. Same consideration for ordinary people. I mean, is the percentage of high IQ male members of communities, associations and so forth, bigger than the female percentage because men are more attracted to take the tests?

Anja Jaenicke[2]*: As a species we basically live in societies with the tendency to predatory competition.That wasn’t always the case. When our hominid ancestors started to form larger groups, they often gathered around one dominating female and sometimes formed female polyandry. This had a positive effect on the whole group, not only because children where able to learn different skills from several fathers, but in the first place because these ancient small bands of hominids where ruled by the female production of oxytocin, the hormone that enables mothers to love and communicate with their newborns through eye contact. Being able to understand gestures by following them with the eyes is the first step to social communication and language. Populations who are able to solve problems through communication and loving understanding are more peaceful, and less competitive but also more successful than those based on domination and aggression controlled by steroids and adrenalin, which is mostly produced by male domination.

We can see the difference today in Bonobos and Chimpanzees, where Chimpanzee groups tend more toward aggression than Bonobos.#

Unfortunately we are more Chimpanzee than Bonobo and regardless of the newly found, often grammar crippling, gender specific language, this fact leads to societies based on more competitive and dominating strategies, not only in high IQ communities but also among humanity in general.

We need a better job, a higher income, and a bigger house than the individual next to us,which we perceive more as a competitor than as an enrichment for a happy development and a chance for a brighter future together.

But this is as old as humanity itself. Divide et Vince.

Unfortunately some high IQ societies have become platforms of competitive self performance rather than fruitful, creative and supportive centers for mindful discussion and exchange.

Of course I do not speak for all high IQ groups. There are many positive changes happening and the choices of special interest groups have become much more variable. This is a good thing.

Kate Jones[3]*: Why are there more men than women in Hi-IQ societies? Is that the question? It’s not because women are stupid. Any number of explanations are possible: 1. Women are too busy with other duties to spend social time showing off their smarts. 2. The tests administered to determine IQ are written by men on subjects focused on men and their subjects and interests; hardly any question concerns quality of relationships that are women’s stronger suit. 3. Men sell other men on joining them; most men don’t want to seem inferior to women in any department. Groups attract their own kind, in brief. 4. General competence is seen as men’s feature, since historically they have been “in charge” of social decisions. Women are busy looking after other people not in a bossy style but as helpful caretakers. Aside from all these is the fact that every single human being, of any derivation, is a unique individual, different on every scale and in every context from everyone else.

Monika Orski[4]*: Well, ask the men why they are attracted to high-I.Q. societies. Seriously, as far as I know there has been no real scientific study of this subject, and thus every theory will remain a guess. My personal guess is that because men, at group level, are raised to be more confident as well as more competitive, this shows in the statistics of people who take a high-I.Q. society entrance test. I only know the statistics for Mensa Sweden, but among those who take that entrance test there, the percentage of women who “pass” a Mensa score is slightly larger than the percentage of the men. But as more men take the test, there is still a male majority among the members.

Veronica Palladino, M.D.[5]*: I think that there are different cognitive attributes in males and females. Specifically, males on average had larger volumes and higher tissue densities in the left amygdala, hippocampus, insular cortex, putamen; higher densities in the right VI lobe of the cerebellum and in the left claustrum; and larger volumes in the bilateral anterior parahippocampal gyri, posterior cingulate gyri, precuneus, temporal poles, and cerebellum, areas in the left posterior and anterior cingulate gyri, and in the right amygdala, hippocampus, and putamen. By contrast, females on average had higher density in the left frontal pole, and larger volumes in the right frontal pole, inferior and middle frontal gyri, pars triangularis, planum temporale/parietal operculum, anterior cingulate gyrus, insular cortex, and Heschl’s gyrus; bilateral thalami and precuneus; the left parahippocampal gyrus, and lateral occipital cortex. Generally, females show advantages in verbal fluency, perceptual speed, accuracy and fine motor skills, while males outperform females in spatial, working memory and mathematical abilities. Generational changes of intelligence test performance in the general population (the Flynn effect) have been observed all over the world since the early 1940s. In a sudy, it was examined a mixed-sex sample of 449 university students in a cross-sectional design. It was observed higher performance of men than of women on subscales, but only little evidence for sex differences regarding test score gains. So there is not Flynn’s effect’s difference between women and men. Another study investigated the difference between gender-role identity and intelligence of students at Universities. The samples were 153 participants consisting of 48 females and 105 males` undergraduate Iranian students in Malaysia Universities. All students were given a Catell Culture Fair Intelligence Test (CCFIT). The mean age and SD for female`s students were 22.27 and 2.62, for ages of 18 to 27 and for male`s students mean age and SD were 23.28 and 2.43, for ages of 19 to 27. The sampling method in this study was the simple randomization method. Descriptive statistics focusing on average and t-tests were used to examine differences between male and female students in this study. In general, the results were not found significant between female and male students in relation to intelligence. The theme is extremely complex. According to me, others factors could be investigated like environment, family, school, friends, university and not gender.

Dr. Sandra Schlick[6],[7]*: A first reason is that we tend to go towards people we know, as you mentioned above, another one – which you won’t like – refers to the older studies in beginning of 20 century where it was claimed that females are less intelligent than men due to their smaller size (smaller brain = less intelligent). I just wonder, if one reason could be the tests that are offered in the high IQ range, as of being very scholarly oriented and less creative. I guess that tests such that formerly offered from Sigma might be more relevant, as it calls for problem solving skills and application. I refuse to go into a discussion the sort that females are occupied with other issues or might have not the same education. This used to be and I might be one of those victims, but recently and in the western / industrialised world, we have merely the same opportunities along with specific training for children with special needs.

Jacobsen: To more intriguing matters, what motivated interest in taking any of these various tests and joining the high-I.Q. communities?

Albano: As I said in my first interview, I happened to meet virtually some high IQ people who are members of various communities and I decided to give it a try.

Jaenicke: Well, I can only answer for myself. As a child I could not wait to go to school and learn. I taught myself how to write and read but was still too young to enter school. At this time IQ tests where not popular in Germany and my mother was told to wait and not to overload me with too much information. I was four and a half year when I took the Hamburg Wechsler Intelligence Test for Children with the result of being sent to second grade right after my fifth birthday.

Later the test has been repeated a couple of times but my mother didn’t tell me the results. She wanted me to “fit in” and make friends in my age, which of course I didn’t. All my friends where much older or grown up. Nevertheless I tried very much to adjust but always felt like an outsider because of my not so age typical interests in books and my longing to be alone for long periods of time. Years later I searched the internet and found the International High IQ Society of Nathan Haselbauer. I took the test and became a member. Later I entered the Poetic Genius Society and took a couple of other tests, standardized and high range, only to verify the results for myself.

Taking the tests also gave me an explanation why I was a bit “different”.

In my opinion, taking tests is not an end in itself, what matters is what you do with whatever you have to work with.

Jones: In my case, because I always had high grades in school, someone recommended joining Mensa to associate with more intelligent people who might like to buy the products of my little company, namely challenging puzzles. My mental abilities were never a concern for me; I just tried to do the best I could in anything I did.

Orski: For me, it was the concept of taking an I.Q. test that attracted me, by pure curiosity. Then, when offered to join Mensa, I did so just to see what that would be like. And I have stayed in Mensa for 30+ years and counting. I also did the test then used by ISPE around a year later, and became a member for a year or two. But while I’m sure it’s a also a fine
society, I rather soon found that Mensa, being _the_ large high-IQ society, was quite enough for me.
Looking back, I think I was mostly curious about the workings and limitations of my own brain. I was young, and the notion of a challenge was also part of this curiosity.

Schlick: For past time, it is like playing a game, for the fun of the game. Some tests were just great. I regret to never have handed in Sigma test, as that was the one, I liked most, but upon being ready, they imposed a fee, which I did not want to pay. Also, I remember one test where I had all the questions except one, which I did not hand in, as I could not see how it was scored beforehand. That is something I observe in many IQ tests: you just get the questions but not the associated weight thereof. If you do a maths test in school, you have always the points associated, and you therefore can know if a question is worthy to consider or if it should be skipped. As a lecturer, I enjoy testtaking and test-design.

Jacobsen: As one participant noted here, we have a few wordsmiths here. As far as I know, verbal subtests of mainstream, proctored I.Q. tests, e.g., the WAIS, indicate a high g-factor loading on verbal ability, among the highest. In developmental psychology, girls and young women develop linguistic facilities far faster and more robustly than boys. Presumably, women, as they age, maintain this average advantage until death (at a later time, in general, than the men, too). In short, women develop verbal facility earlier and keep it longer, on average, than men. Were there early life indications of language talent for any of you?

Albano: I was strongly communicative as a child. I learned reading and writing precociously and I spelled each new word correctly. Before learning to read, my curiosity toward words was so deep that every time I walked on the road with my mother and I spotted a sign shop writing, I asked my mom what kind of shop it was and on the basis of it I tried to guess the writing on the sign. The result was that I invented the name of the shops. Hilarious. My mom generally preferred to explain to me what kind of job they enacted.

Once the shop was a bakery and she told me it was the shop where they make bread. I feigned to be focused on the sign to make her believe I was capable of reading the writing, and my guess was “Flourer” haha.

Jaenicke: Maybe the female oxytocin production mentioned above could be a hint for the development of communicational skills from an early pre natal mother- child relationship on?

In my case I started to talk and form long sentences in a very early stage. My mother recorded some of it and it has been very funny to listen to it in later life. I never used one word descriptions but rather formed long sentences from early age on. “I made pee in my diapers, only pee but the the poo is not mine, little Robert has placed it there.”

(Hahaha, maybe I should have become a lawyer or politician?)

I read French and Italian children books without noticing the difference to my native German language. The language skills seemed to fly through the air and land on me without any effort which made it hard for me to sit down and learn a language from school books.

In school I translated an entire film script from English into German and converted it into a theatre play, much to the frustration of my English teacher who didn’t understand that I never worked hard on vocabulary or grammar but instead secretly read Charles Bukowski and Henry Miller in English, under the desk.

Language consists to a great part of logical deduction and logic is mathematical, so maybe female skills are not so different from those of men after all?

Jones: I can understand that connection. Vocabulary is related to the conceptual complexity of thoughts and ideas and relationships. Those subtleties are more built into female psychology out of the necessity of maintaining family connections and staying aware of people’s many shades of feelings and intentions. Why are soap operas aimed more at women? In my own case, having been born into one language (Hungarian), having fled to another country as a child and learned another language (German), having emigrated to America to learn a third language (English), and having studied Latin, French, and Spanish in school, and later in life having lived in Iran and added Farsi to my conversational equipment, developing “linguistic facilities” was just a part of life. I have read that children who are exposed to multiple languages at a young age learn them effortlessly and retain them better, both boys and girls. If women have greater facility, I think it has to do with the more numerous subjects and feelings they deal with.

Orski: I never really thought of myself having any particular language talent. Yes, I do speak a few languages, but I never really had a knack for it; it took quite some effort to get anywhere near being fluent. And the only language I really feel I can use fairly well remains my native Swedish. But I always liked reading, which helps develop language. And somehow I started writing, even before I could even spell correctly. I guess it just stayed with me. A writer writes, it’s just what we do. Even thought it isn’t my main profession, it has resulted in a few published books.

Palladino: Gender differences in conversational habits have been a favoured subject matter of scientists, researchers and lay people for a long time. The ‘female chatterbox’ stereotype can be found in many cultures as demonstrated by the following proverbs:

If you have five wives, then you have five tongues. (Africa)

A woman would rather swallow her teeth than her tongue. (France)

Choose a wife rather by your ear than by your eye. (England)

Women never praise without gossipping. (China)

There is nothing sharper than a woman’s tongue. (Ireland)

The only sword that never rests is the tongue of a woman. (China)

Foxes are all tail, and women are all tongue.( England).

We all know that men and women are different. This does not mean that one of the sexes is better than the other, they are simply different.

As for the explanation of sex-specific differences in cognition and behaviour there have been numerous theories. In the past nature was held to be the primary reason of these differences. In the 1990s, the evolutionary theory emerged by assigning almost every gender difference to the evolution of the brain and natural selection. At the end of the 20 th century more and more works were published on the significance of hormones and the differences in brain structure.

I did not remember a particular verbal talent during my childhood.

Schlick: I don’t know, however I recall having discovered how to decipher the alphabet quite early and my earliest memories circle around the maths homework of my older sisters and their training and that I could join that. I therefore guess that I was more intrigued with counting and calculating. I guess, I am not of help here.

Jacobsen: Nature more often reveals Her secrets piecemeal, gently and slowly. Yet, sometimes, cataclysmic minds come forth from Her and gift understanding. Of women genius philosophers, epistemologists, scientists, logicians, and the like, who stands out to you?

Albano: An extraordinary woman, the forerunner of important educational methods was the physician Maria Montessori, to me. In my paternal family her non formal methodologies were adopted either by my grandmother, as a teacher either by my father’s sister as a teacher and as a mother. The latter employed particularly permissive methods to raise her sons, whilst the former, my grandma Maria, was one of the few teachers who didn’t correct left-handed pupils. I am left handed and she recommended to my mom to not force me to use the right hand because it was a mistake, even dangerous. These non-conventional views were deeply shaped by the Montessori method.

Jaenicke: If we go back in history, we must notice that it has been written by men. For centuries men dominated all fields of education and chronological recording.

Even in the enlightenment women often had hard times to find their way of free expression.

But even if they did find a way to stand out, like Hildegard von Bingen for example, who lived in medieval times, it has never been easy for them to make it into the history books. Very few of them are known by name.

Who, for example has read the poetry of the Renaissance philosopher and poet Tullia d’Aragona?

Yes, we all know Marie Curie but how many others stayed hidden in the darkness of time?

Even today it is difficult. For example, we all know about the vaccine against Covid 19 but do we mention PD Dr. Özlem Türeci who co developed the mRNA vaccine together with her husband

Dr. Ugur Sahin?

Jones: Marie Curie, Ayn Rand, Susan Shaw, Maria Montessori. Show me a list and I’ll pick a few more.

Orski: I always have a problem defining geniuses, and even more so naming them. But well, Marie Curie, twice a Nobel prize laureate, seems like a good example. Being a computer engineer myself, I also feel I should mention Ada Lovelace.

Palladino: “Everybody in this town knows Madame Wu. One of the dearest, sweetest, most elegant women I’ve ever known.” – Merv Griffin (USA Today, Jan 29, 1998, Closing time at Madame Wu’s). Chien-Shiung Wu, 吳健雄was a Chinese-American particle and experimental physicist who made significant contributions in the fields of nuclear and particle physics. Wu worked on the Manhattan Project, where she developed the process for separating uranium into uranium-235 and uranium-238 isotopes by gaseous diffusion. She is best known for conducting the Wu experiment, which proved that parity is not conserved. Lee and Yang won Nobel Prize and Madame Wu didn’t win it. It was a terrible injustice.

Schlick: Madame Curie, in how far does this help for the discussion? Imagine you get names from every one of us, thus, do you discover new celebrities of the high range?

Jacobsen: Others represent Nature, or interpret, frame, and transmute, e.g., artists and musicians. What women artists and musicians stand out to you?

Albano: To my surprise I love many women artists and musicians but I can’t name one who stands out. Must think about it.

Jaenicke: One can find the same phenomenon of male domination in the arts. In Germany it was only in 1919 that the first art school, the Bauhaus in Weimar, opened for women. In the year 1977 the painter Georg Baselitz stated that women in general are less talented painters than men.

At this point I want to mention all the genius female artists, philosophers, scientists ,and epistemologists etc. who managed to set their mark and shine out of the shadow into the light but also all the women who where cast out of their careers because they where busy giving birth and education to future potential male geniuses.

Men dominate our view on the arts, media, music, etc, and in particular on the picture we have of women in these fields.

As a female painter Frida Kahlo stands out to me but also my friend Mrs. Brause, he was a fashion designer and made very beautiful printings on fabric. Unfortunately he belonged to the first generation of homosexuals who died from AIDS.

I also want to mention the author Anette Kolb who wrote about herself in the book “The Swing” as “Mathias”, she gave herself an artificial boys name to describe her non conformist attitude and her independent way of thinking, in a time where women did not even have the right to vote.

I had the pleasure to play the role of “Mathias” in the film “The Swing” by the director Percy Adlon.

Jones: Faegheh Atashin (“Googoosh”), Edith Piaf, Alma Deutscher. Show me a list and I’ll pick a few more.

Orski: I’m to unmusical to take any real interest in music. But among artists, I tend to go for the names of modernist art, like Frida Kahlo, Tamare de Lempicka and Niki de Saint Phalle.

Palladino: I have two examples. Growing up in Manhattan, Helen Frankenthaler pursued painting studies at the Dalton School and Bennington College. Having studied under the artist Hans Hoffman, as a young artist she became an important figure in the abstract expressionism artistic movement. In the early years of her career, these compositions tended to be centralized on the canvas. She was a pioneer of color field painting—a style which features large swaths of color as the painting’s “subject.” To achieve the effect of a wash of brilliant color, Frankenthaler thinned her paints with turpentine before applying them to the unprimed canvas. The result of this “soak stain” method was an almost-watercolor-like appearance with color built in organic layers. Her art is pure passion.

One of the world’s greatest pianists, and a legend in classical music is Martha Argerich. She is a sweet wind of prodigious power. When I listen to her music I fly.

Schlick: Why not mentioning Marilyn Monroe, as before, what is that good for? I just pick one.

Jacobsen: Social media is a global phenomenon, which rose rapidly. Instagram has Inta-poetry. Online poetry, more generally, is a thing. Any thoughts on this? Does this trend in different media for poetry spark interest in poetry or not?

Albano: I write poems in English and when I approached online websites of poetry I was caught by surprise by the huge interest non-Italian people have in reading, listening to and writing poetry. I remarked “non-Italian” people because Italy is the cradle of Dante and Petrarca but poets in modern times do not capture a great attention. In the US, instead, public readings of poems and online publications, even insta-poetry, exert an unexpected fascination on the public.

Jaenicke: Obviously people engage in media poetry and as long as they do so they don’t shoot.

Jones: Humans like to celebrate their efficacy by turning basic skills into higher, decorated, romanticized, permanent forms like sculptures, word structures, sound structures, and playing with their variations. So words that rhyme become an exercise in pretty construction, and lines with rhythm also become a structure beyond random speech.

So let us say we want to build
Speech with rhythmic cadence filled

And tickle the mind with concepts new
That nevertheless sound sweet and true.

A game, I say, that will enfold
Male and female, young and old,

So speech is music to feed the mind
With skill that only humans find.

Orski: I certainly hope it does. It’s always good to make poetry, or any kind of literature for that matter, available in more different ways. Spoken word poetry has had the effect to attract new readers (listeners) as well as new writers, and I think that online poetry does so too.

Palladino: Online poetry could be a means capable of bringing many people closer to the poetic world but only if done with determination, intelligence and perception.

“The Princess Saves Herself in This One” by Amanda Lovelace

Amanda has a fascination with fairytales and monsters and folklore and examines her trademark themes of abuse, mental illness, and grief through those lenses. I like her poems really.

Schlick: It is just a new way to communicate, in 1440 a first system to print was established and allowed to communicate easier, in the very early ages there was word of mouth or wall paintings, we have another reach out and it becomes faster, this is just technological development. But this does not say anything about the quality, neither earlier nor now. We all know that to establish a reach-out or being printed you need to hit some points, be it quality, or be it liaison with the right people in the right network.

Jacobsen: Finally, what efforts have been put forward by high-I.Q. communities to attract more women if any?

Albano: I think that high-I.Q. Communities’ efforts would be vain without a cultural paradigm shift. The educational system itself should pave the way of self-esteem for women who after finishing high school and universities develop a sense of inadequacy even when they reach important roles in their job. Sometimes women themselves inhibit their exceptional potential due to their own prejudices. Or it might be, as I said above, they are less interested in taking tests.

Jaenicke: As an intelligent being one is mostly attracted to other intelligent beings. I do not think this is gender specific.

Women who join high IQ communities tend to look for people with the same intellectual interests or the possibility for fruitful discussion and not so much for other women.

Again it should not be an issue of gender but of intellectual exchange.

We all have a very limited time on this tiny, not very exceptional planet in midst of a vast universe, where even cats can be dead and alive at the same time.

We should not try to divide ourselves in even smaller groups of black, white, pink orange, green, male, female, queer etc.but should act together as one intelligent, cosmic and spiritual entity.

Jones: I have not found high-IQ communities to make any effort for or against the participation of women. There are, of course, men who would like to have more women around with whom they could form relationships of mutual excitement. Both men and women have an interest in associating with amiable and compatible individuals, of whatever gender. And similar intellects are more likely to match. Of course, everyone has their lifestyle and associations, and only so much time. A high-IQ society can, by mutual agreement, offer activities and programs to which people will be willing and able to give their time. Nowadays interesting conversations don’t require a physical presence. We can find fabulous people to enjoy on social media day and night.

Orski: Most of them, I don’t know about. I do know that some national Mensas have tried to promote their female leaders a little extra, too attract more women by showing role models. Also, as the communities grow, the groups naturally become more diversified, which in itself makes them more attractive.

Palladino: High iq world should pay more attention, foresight and consideration to women who, although different from men, have an equally powerful and extraordinary intelligence.

Schlick: Unfortunately, this remembers me when I started my machine construct engineering education. I was spotlighted as one female under very few doing that and I received the exact same question. The problem later was that I was not at all treated the same as my male counterparts. I was downgraded for not writing “nice” and had to meet the professors in their offices for several hours to show them that my answer was the correct one. Upon looking in my final grades, the downgraded grades were still in place. I do not claim that my answers were perfect but I do claim that the grading was biased towards the males and towards what their view of how a female should be and how she writes by hand. As I am a reversed left-hand writer, this is quite challenging to write “beautiful” with the right hand.

Having said that all, I guess there is not much to do other than demonstrating trust. Allowing females to have an IQ normality curve or not compared to men but not better or worse, just may be differently organized with may be aspects that are highly biased as males mostly produce IQ tests. I think that female intelligence and their way to produce insight is a very interesting topic and this should definitively be more explored.

#See Hare/Woods, Duke University

Footnotes

[1] Clelia Albano is from Italy. She’s a teacher of Italian and Latin, and a painter and poet writing in Italian and English. She has two collections of poetry. She is a member of Capabilis and USIA.

[2] Anja Jaenicke is a German Poet and Actor.

[3] Kate Jones is a “bemused and kindly traveler of this world who likes to leave things better than she found them.” She was born at the dawn of WWII in Budapest, Hungary, with a Type A personality and a philosophical bent. She is a Diplomate of ISPE and a member of American Mensa, a life member of the Imperial Society of Teachers of Dancing, and generally a Libertarian. Her greatest focus since 1979 is on her company, Kadon Enterprises, Inc., designing and making “playable art” puzzles and games.

[4] Monika Orski is a trustee of The Nordic Mensa Fund, a former
Ordförande/Chairman, Mensa Sverige/Mensa Sweden (2015-2019), a writer,
keynote speaker and IT engineer.

[5] Veronica Palladino, M.D., is a Medical Doctor, Co-Champion of the LexIQ Contest, an author of four books, and a member of a number of High-I.Q. societies, and a Fellow and Advisor of the United Sigma Intelligence Association (USIA).

[6] Dr. Sandra Schlick has the expertise and interest in Mathematics, Methodology for Business Engineers, and Statistics, and coaching and supervision of bachelor, master, and doctoral theses. She supervises M.Sc. theses in Business Information and D.B.A. theses in Business Management. Her areas of competence can be seen in the “Competency Map.” That is to say, her areas of expertise and experience mapped in a visualization presentation. Schlick’s affiliations are the Fernfachhochschule Schweiz: University of Applied Sciences, the University of Applied Sciences and Arts Northwestern Switzerland, the Kalaidos University of Applied Sciences, and AKAD.

[7] Individual Publication Date: August 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-women-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Women of the High-I.Q. Communities 1: Clelia Albano, Anja Jaenicke, Kate Jones, Monika Orski, Veronica Palladino, M.D., and Dr. Sandra Schlick on Nature, Social Media, Tests, and Women[Online]. August 2022; 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-women-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 1). Women of the High-I.Q. Communities 1: Clelia Albano, Anja Jaenicke, Kate Jones, Monika Orski, Veronica Palladino, M.D., and Dr. Sandra Schlick on Nature, Social Media, Tests, and Women. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-women-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Women of the High-I.Q. Communities 1: Clelia Albano, Anja Jaenicke, Kate Jones, Monika Orski, Veronica Palladino, M.D., and Dr. Sandra Schlick on Nature, Social Media, Tests, and Women. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-women-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Women of the High-I.Q. Communities 1: Clelia Albano, Anja Jaenicke, Kate Jones, Monika Orski, Veronica Palladino, M.D., and Dr. Sandra Schlick on Nature, Social Media, Tests, and Women.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-women-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Women of the High-I.Q. Communities 1: Clelia Albano, Anja Jaenicke, Kate Jones, Monika Orski, Veronica Palladino, M.D., and Dr. Sandra Schlick on Nature, Social Media, Tests, and Women.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-women-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Women of the High-I.Q. Communities 1: Clelia Albano, Anja Jaenicke, Kate Jones, Monika Orski, Veronica Palladino, M.D., and Dr. Sandra Schlick on Nature, Social Media, Tests, and Women’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-women-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Women of the High-I.Q. Communities 1: Clelia Albano, Anja Jaenicke, Kate Jones, Monika Orski, Veronica Palladino, M.D., and Dr. Sandra Schlick on Nature, Social Media, Tests, and Women’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-women-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Women of the High-I.Q. Communities 1: Clelia Albano, Anja Jaenicke, Kate Jones, Monika Orski, Veronica Palladino, M.D., and Dr. Sandra Schlick on Nature, Social Media, Tests, and Women.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.D (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-women-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Women of the High-I.Q. Communities 1: Clelia Albano, Anja Jaenicke, Kate Jones, Monika Orski, Veronica Palladino, M.D., and Dr. Sandra Schlick on Nature, Social Media, Tests, and Women[Internet]. (2022, August 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-women-1.

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2022-08-01

Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on High-Range Tests, Writing, Social Media Dieting, and Teaching: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (9)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,784

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies, including World Genius Directory, NOUS High IQ Society, 6N High IQ Society just to name a few. Tor Arne was also in 2019, nominated for the World Genius Directory 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe. He is also the designer of the high range test site; toriqtests.com. He discusses: the first one developed; numerical and verbal tests; 11 tests; Zgonglin Li, Nitish Joshi, and Jason Betts; pluses and minuses; Jason Grant; writing and thinking skills in a dialogic format; areas to explore; the world of tests and test construction; written communication; prepare mentally for these interviews; a break from social media as an experiment; needless distractions; the temptation of time wasting; schooling the young; credentialed in the study of some aspects of history.

Keywords: Jason Grant, numerical tests, schooling, social media, the young, Tor Arne Jørgensen, verbal tests.

Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on High-Range Tests, Writing, Social Media Dieting, and Teaching: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (9)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: There’s an interesting niche community all over the world. One in which you’re immersed. I have interviewed people in them, heard and read the vast amount of gossip from people about one another (shocking, hilarious, insightful, and scary, depending on the story). I would, hopefully, engage this more in depth in a separate series, but I want to cover some of the aspects of novice test construction. Individuals with various types of problem-solving skills in the variants of the high-I.Q. communities. What test was the first one developed by you?

Tor Arne Jørgensen [1],[2]*: The first high range test I designed was a collaboration with myself and Arne Andre Gangvik back in 2016, and it was decided to be called: Scout, which is a verbal test with 30 tasks of varying difficulty.

Jacobsen: Why focus on numerical and verbal tests?

Jorgensen: Simply explained, that these are the tests that I like best and are best at. When I first started taking these high range tests, I spent far too little time, around 30 minutes to 1 hour on tests that one should have spent 8-10 hours on. I learned a lot along the way about what I was good at and what I was not good at.

I’m not good at figurative tests, they are to be recon as my Achilles heel, then there are the numerical tests that I am somewhat better at, then lastly, verbal testes, whereas the association tests are the most preferred ones. Furthermore, I cannot rush as I am not good at time-limited tests at all, but at deep analysis, that is my strength. This corresponds well with how I am otherwise in terms of physical abilities, where I am a 10-15K runner, and as a cyclist I am to be considered a tempo rider.

Jacobsen: You have 11 tests: Gradus 3 Light, Gradus 3, Quinque, Quinque 2, Quinque 3, Quinque 4, Spot, Scout, Capiuntiq, MVNLT 20, and Lambda XIK. What test has been taken the most? Who has done the best on them if I may ask? Alternatively, what has been the highest score on the one of your tests on the 1^st attempt and on the 2^nd attempt?

Jorgensen: The tests that have the most attempts is MVNLT20, then my Quinque tests.

To the question of who has the top score, I cannot reveal it, but all the Quinque tests except Quinque 3 have been totally solved. MVNLT20 has been solved 19/20 as a top score, but all the tasks have been solved correctly. The same goes for Spot, Gradus 3 and Gradus 3 Light. The remaining tests have been partially solved according to the 1st and 2nd attempts; this applies to all my tests. It should be mentioned that only Quinque 4 has been solved completely right in the first attempt.

Jacobsen: You link to Zgonglin Li, Nitish Joshi, and Jason Betts, on the website. Why those individuals?

Jorgensen: Simply justified, by the fact that they are according to what I know great people, with lots of talent for creating high range tests among other great qualities. Fantastic, and to add kind individuals that have a solid reputation for being serious test developers.

Jacobsen: Most people who develop tests independently do not have professional qualifications directly relevant to psychometrics or experimental psychology, or neuropsychology. For example, Dr. Xavier Jouve of the former Cerebrals Society has a doctorate in experimental psychology. He’s into photography now. Dr. Gina Langan of the Mega Foundation/‘Mega Society East’ has a doctorate in neuropsychology. Dr. Evangelos Katsioulis, M.D. is a psychiatrist and a medical doctor. So, well-educated people and intelligent exist in pockets of the community with directly relevant or almost directly relevant qualifications. Yet, back to the main observation, most do not. So, what pluses and minuses can arise in this context of a lack of relevant structured formal education or qualifications?

Jorgensen: Since the high range tests, or advance puzzle tasks, as an uneducated person according to what you are referring to here in your line of question, then these tests are not to be considered as intelligence tests, as they are to be considered to be mere logically based tests and nothing more. It should also be noted that I have received the standardization that is requested on my website and on each test. The fact that with each submission, scores from other high range tests must be brought with the persons test submission regarding the need for norm validation, and then a previous certificate from supervised tests is then provided by request from the test author. These supervised psychometric tests are the very best for providing a valid norm.

The norm is then usually based on 30-50 attempts, whereas many are based on these monitored psychometric tests, this in return provides me the test author with a deviation normed base of around 1-3 points at most, this example applies well to my MVNLT20 test, here the deviation has not exceeded on the last 15 attempts more than 3 points deviation plus minus from the supervised tests.

Positive sides regard to high range tests; they are much cheaper than these standard supervised tests, whereas my own tests are free of charge, the standard supervised tests on the other hand cost at least from 50 to 60 dollars as to what I last saw. As previous stated, the deviation from the standard supervised test and my own MVNLT20 test seems to be within 1-3 points.

The negative side is that you will not get the validness as to a correct supervised normed IQ score.

High range tests does in most case, not provide you with a proper IQ score as they are not correctly based on the correct psychometrics and are further not supervised by an certified professional psychologist, thus making them unreliable for a proper IQ score.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the mention in the interview with Jason Grant, by the way, how was the live interview compared to the more formal back-and-forth correspondence interviews done by you and I?

Jorgensen: I liked it very much, a wonderful format that gave me an extra boost. The only thing that was and still is a bit sad, is the time it took and now takes to publish these interviews. Jason Grant is a nice person, but it’s slow going to publish each interview, still waiting for part 2 of the interview series… That said, I like the format that we currently work as to the written format, this allows me to be a bit more colorful with regards to my particularities, as my orally flamboyance is not quite on par with my written formulations.

Jacobsen: We can cover more of the high-range test materials in another series, as I will be exploring some of these issues with others. You have some plans to transition, apparently rapidly, from the world of tests and test-development into the world of writing and thought. How have some of these interviews together helped to develop some writing and thinking skills in a dialogic format?

Jorgensen: Undoubtedly yes, these interview interactions that we conduct on a steady basis, the exposure of what is to be covered, as well as the nature of the content produce by its excellent qualitative elements, are thus promoted in dialogue-learning qualities that in turn can be viewed as evolving mantras.

Jacobsen: What seem like areas to explore into the future for us?

Jorgensen: To be able to continue very much in the same direction as now, perhaps direct the focus even more so towards the world of tomorrow and perhaps dig more into the world of fiction. Divide your interview format, create a separate platform by and for a book only format, in the anticipation by the desired intent of a more personal in-depth interview etc. Furthermore, to entertain the notion of a Podcast interview setup, done so to create new innovative appearances for both the interviewer and the interviewee also it gives you the opportunity to get down and dirty with the interviewee.

You have here, a golden opportunity for positive outlook expansion, as well as variety for yourself and the person being interviewed, and to add, that this Podcast format is the most applied platform by todays standard, also it lets you learn more about you the interviewer and the person you are interviewing. You have an absolute unique access to some of the most exciting and brilliant interview objects there is to get a hold off on a global spectrum both inside and outside the high IQ community. Think about the mind-bending opportunities that this could bring for you, both in terms of revenue and publicity. Hope you will one day embrace this idea as many of us would like to see this become a reality!

Jacobsen: Why decide to retire from the world of tests and test construction, and so on?

Jorgensen: Time was apt for change as I can go no further on my quest for new high score records. I currently hold the Norwegian record with my high range IQ score of 184 on my 1^st attempt, this is good enough for me. But should someone beat this record, well…

When it comes to designing these high range IQ tests, the selection is so diverse. The creative side of designing something new and exciting as a high range IQ test is valued to be, becomes a bit suspicious to me, due to the fact that the ones I create, are not to be considered as an IQ tests per say, as I am not a certified psychologist, nor am I an expert as to what data I am supposed to collect from the test, i.e., what psychological trait I am supposed to extract etc. My personal excitement of designing these advanced puzzle test, regards to one’s creative engagement has for me now ended.

Jacobsen: For those who don’t know, you’re writing in a second or nth language when writing with me. Most of the high-I.Q. communities tend to do this if taking an international focus. English hasn’t been an issue for many of them. Even so, they learn quickly and adapt – duh. Acquisition of an innate sensibility to emotive content and intuitive-instinctive capacities may be too late for most if learning a language past teenage years; however, the content and capacity to communicate with analytical clarity remains a strong possibility and a trend for those who put in the effort. Have you noticed an improvement in written communication since our first interview together?

Jorgensen: For me personally, as I do not know about you and your opinion as to the level of improvement of my English skills, but as to my own experience, the improvement is tremendous, hopefully this spells well for me as I am about to start an English course this coming fall, at; The University of Agder (UIA).

Jacobsen: How do you prepare mentally for these interviews with me? Questions can range widely. Time commitment can be intensive. The audience of the high-I.Q. will be, by definition, more cognitively powerful, so more likely to be critical of any and all content and opinions expressed. Also, why repeatedly choose to be a willing interviewee (victim) with me? (!)

Jorgensen: When it comes to preparing for these interviews here, there is not much preparation necessary for me to do as I am sitting on most of the information needed to be quoted further and just run with the question formulation presented by the interviewer. But it should be said, that when it comes to interviews, which revolve around historical aspects, some preparations must be made as it can be good to freshen up a little on any eventualities that one should not necessarily remember there and then. When it comes to a part with which you mention with people with high intelligence is a little pickier about what is presented when it comes to spelling of sentences, presentation, content, depth, and variation and so on, then this is not viewed upon as a problem at all, rather as I think that it makes everything a little more exciting. I tend to see it all as a challenge, where you must stay on the alert and do your very best when presenting the topic of discussion, it creates credibility as to what is then being presented, which is just as it should be all purpose intended.

When it comes to the last bit where it refers to being a willing interview object. Think in terms of all ones has on one’s mind, must then be properly present it in the best possible way, thus it is very nice to be able to relate to the people who are good at presenting good quality question formulations, that allows the interviewee to elaborate on and enjoy. And that in turn creates an interesting topic field that many of the article readers out there can then have the opportunity to take part in, which I personally find very exciting and which I think others may think is exciting to gain insight into.

And so, I must be allowed to emphasize that being a “willing victim” in that sense is just the icing on the cake.

Jacobsen: I decided to take a break from social media as an experiment, as I need more time after returning to work following a back injury. I am noticing a lot of time freeing up. Have you tried this?

Jorgensen: In referring to; “time away from social media”, for me it will be a yes and no answer. A bit confusing, I know, but let me explain, I have taken time away from the social media that does not give me enough “feedback”, in the sense of enriching my everyday life. I have become much more alert about which social medias that gets my attention or not. I, for example, was in my earlier years in reference to the high IQ communities, an active person in debates on many different high IQ platforms, I was involved in debates and delivered posts for debate, that could in return be debated. After a while this became somewhat boring for me, as I felt I spent a lot of unnecessary time dabbling on with no real sense of directional purpose. I have a family to considered, and when I had full-time studies and back then as now a full-time job, and to add at that, I spent a lot of time on high range IQ tests, and lastly, I designed my own test page and eleven high range tests, then the hours in a day was just not enough.

Then it was ripe to take stock as to what to remove what could be removed of unnecessary social distractions, so I could again spend my newfound time on what was most important to me. Nowadays I no longer work with high range IQ tests, nor with my test page (toriqtests.com), my focus now is to help bring national and global awareness upon the dire need for proper attention as to correct measurements of education by and for the gifted students. This I have worked on a lot, in collaboration with the school where I work, and the municipal council in my hometown Grimstad, which I am now awaiting for a positive response from the letters I have sent over with propagated directives for educational purposes directed towards the “twice gifted”, this is in collaboration with Professor June Maker from The University of Arizona, who is a pioneer within the field of Psychoeducational Studies. (https://coe.arizona.edu/person/carol-j-maker)

Will also bring forth, of my fervent hope of showcasing this most wonderful community of high intelligence society and all its brilliant intellectuals within it, out to the rest of the global population, through what we here do here and what we are all about. This conveyed through various forums like; articles, YouTube clips, and in the future to be able to write books about what makes us the very special and unique individuals we all are.

Topic of; “time away from social media”, for me, is to specify what type of media that gives the most back as to enrich your everyday life and enables a pursuit for educational enlightenment.

Jacobsen: With more free time, it seems like one of those needless distractions. Do you think people would have more time and focus for time with family, on hobbies, with their partner, etc., if they took a time off electronic devices a little more?

Jorgensen: No doubt, but one must consider that by changing one’s pattern of awareness, whereby one frees up time away from mobile phones, computer games or other things, only to fill it with another activity that meets society’s expectations of expected pro-social behavior not necessarily is for the betterment of the person concerned. One’s sphere of interest can in many cases be experienced as contradictory to what is expected of one persona. The best solution would then be to work within the realm of the famous Golden rule, not too much of anything, nor too little. The acquisition of new knowledge through these technological innovations is not a waste of time, one must bear in mind that everything is relative according to whom it concerns. The joy of life is doing what you want, even if this comes at the expense of those around you. It is society’s expectations of us as individuals, which in turn place limitations on the day’s itinerary.

One’s social circle should not place limitations on that individuals’ specific interests. They should rather be adapted, as I said, everything is relative to everyone’s personal field of interest, what is exciting for me is not necessarily exciting for you, and vice versa. We must adapt, restructure our metal constructs. As time free from something, is only going to be filled with time directed towards something else, and in most cases not in favor of the person concerned. Education comes in many forms and shapes.

Concept of “wasting your time” is then no longer wasting your time, the time you spend on whatever content is thereby valuable to you by that reason alone and is therefore to be considered as not wasting your time at all, but rather valuing it on what you hold dearest to you heart, rather than then the alternative.

Jacobsen: Do you think even for smart people that the temptation of time wasting applications is too much? It feels as if it is a pervasive phenomenon at the moment. Different age cohorts emphasize some social media more than others, naturally. Older generations like Facebook/Meta. Younger generations like Instagram and TikTok.

Jorgensen: We`re are all human; we have all followed the same exploratory path, all humans alike find themselves innately searching for self-recognition through exhibition, we constantly follow the urge to restock on whatever comes our way. The dire need to quench our thirst for recognition on various media platforms is inescapable, age-related, or not. As far as the intellect is concerned, for me at least the jury is still out on that one, but what is clear is that we are all equal regarding our biological blueprints, be that of jocks or nerds.

Controversy or not:

Humans’ primordial instincts still to this day manages to overshadow the sovereignty of man’s intellect…

Jacobsen: We’re doing a series on schooling the young at the moment. What are you hoping to convey to anyone reading it about the importance of proper education?

Jorgensen: That our experience of the concept of education is a fleeting perception of reality. A constantly changing structure, which follows society’s need for virulence incentives. History has shown us the purpose of what underlies that existence until now, but my fear lies in whether it has played out its role today or not. The experience of holding on for dear life as to its very existence or not in the future. More and more of the most forward-looking innovators today renounce the importance of an education right down from kindergarten age and upwards. The social aspect in schools today is unchanged, but not its academic content. Social interaction is perhaps more important now than ever before in the age we live in with all the technological temptations we have today. Before, the children didn’t want to stay at home, they couldn’t wait to get out of the house, now the children no longer want to go out unless they are either taking part in organized sports or being forced to go to school. Yesterday’s children used to be directly involved in social interactions, today they are merely indirectly so.

Social anxiety is on the rise, the same can be said in relation to the refusal to contribute to society after finishing school. What was previously mentioned about “what do I need that particular subject for?”, has now developed into “why do I need to go to school”, I can just become a YouTuber, Instagram celebrity or I will live on my parents until I inherit everything.” The schools’ struggle to keep the students’ concentration, make them see the importance of an education, and do their homework. A transaction from before seeing students present at their school desk both physically and mentally, to now just physical presence but nothing more, as in “I am here am I not, but that’s all you get.” This does not apply to all students of course, but the transition is significant. Much of this lies in the pupils’ ability to access new information, we as teachers are no longer the Wessels of informatics. We are now merely the facilitators of the right method of approach and process of this information. We have gone from lecturers to observers, not that there is anything wrong with that, but this transformation affects the structure of education significantly.

An evolving education is all well and good but based on what terms one might ask. The outcome of this change, for me, is divided into evolving sections. The lecturer as the governing body, a walking encyclopedia that was responsible for all information is handed down. Tired students who had to stay focused on what was conveyed in blocks of 30-40 minutes, are now reduced to lectures with an introduction time of no more than 5 minutes, and then work independently in periods of 20 minutes, then review again by the teacher in periods of 3-5 min, then back to work independently for 20 min, etc.

This use of time flows like this and will progress further according to what I see. Keeping students in school today is mostly of socially importance, but not so much of academically importance by todays educational standard.

When we had the Covid-19 epidemic going around the world, the most important criterion for opening primary schools was the social aspect. It was for the sake of the pupils’ mental health that the schools had to reopen as soon as possible. Today, schools are almost only for the students to get social stimulus. All education today can be done interactively as I see it, as almost all teaching is digital.

The students themselves say that we could do this at home, but not under controlled conditions, at least not well enough as of today. It becomes a bit like at the universities, whereas the lectures are outdated, even looking at a separate lecture at the University of Agder, that around 80% of the students would rather watch YouTube, online newspapers, or betting sites rather than to pay attention to what the lecturer has to say to say. Ask yourself as to what one is actually doing at these fields of studies if it is not to acquire important new knowledge within ones chosen field of expertise.

The answer is quite simple and is experienced in a wide range of primary schools, to meet fellow students, again social interaction, or the protection of student fellowship if you will. The vast majority of students are not at school to learn, but as to as what is pointed out, to meet fellow students. The entire school system is missing the target, but this is nothing new, the only big difference is that today it is just so much more visible not only to the researchers who study this, but to us adults, and to the children themselves. We miss the mark of making education important in the eyes of the children, the exciting factor is not made visible until primary school and most of upper secondary school is over for many of these students. The basic package that all students must go through today must be changed drastically so that the content becomes meaningful for all students, even those who hate school. I have previously proposed to individually adapt the education to create an experience of importance within the student him or herself, which can be equated with the social aspect.

At a much earlier stage, the individual must adapt the content to the individual student’s abilities and aspirations. If this change does not take place in an extended volume, then the future of the current school structure will most likely parish. A global educational commitment to interact must be regarded with the upmost importance to be able to keep up with the technological developments. Furthermore, specially adapted positions must be tailored to the individual student’s wishes, where groups no larger than 10 per individual teacher, who then work with, for example, space travel, or game development or nature management adapted to their age specific level. I the future, the local, and even national/global companies must go all the way down to the primary school’s level, and Conway what they are looking for within their specific fields, and what then the students must work towards. Now, in most cases, this does not happen at primary school level, it first starts at high school level, to late I say, where students today get to choose their field of study.

Get this into primary school level.

The teachers of the future should only be subject-specific teachers on hire from the specialist fields of the commissioned companies. My hope is for that the schools themselves will set up what is needed and order in the proper educators of what to focus on for the next 3 years, then either continue in the same path or change direction. What then you say about learning how to write, read, calculate etc., that should, in my opinion, be done by units with general educators, everything else must be brought in externally to meet society’s need for innovation. This may seem somewhat extreme, but we are now in a time when the current school structure is becoming increasingly outdated, and many aging teachers are unable to change their old and outdated teaching style, so fresh minds must come in who have their mental clocks set on tomorrow’s needs and demands. This will require major structural changes at all levels, but the time is overdue for change anyway, so why not just do it…

Jacobsen: Since you’re credentialed in the study of some aspects of history, what are the perennial issues? Those issues affecting every generation cohort after cohort. What are lessons in those trends through time?

Jorgensen: What remains to be seen, or better yet, what has come to light through studies carried out within the subject of the review reads as follows. History has shown us time and time again, that formative changes within people are patterns from previous set systems with paramount constructs, pursued in the eagerness for the next level events beyond believes. We are demonstrably addicted to ever increasing stimuli of that what already is or in the eternal search for whatever may lie behind the horizon. We are driven by our innate curiosity towards a higher state of existence. This craving after intention conditioned innovative permeates all social structures of society from early days and forward into present day. For me, this innate curiosity is our most important quality by renewal towards a new and rendered state of existence. Our drive towards the unknown strengthens us as individuals, this means that we are better equipped to cope with whatever comes next.

The stamp of opportunism that is tattooed upon us all is not to be mistaken by its mere blinding nature. One can almost say that our opportunism in combination with our curious nature, thereby secures our path from this current stage of existence to the next. I am adamant that this is so, in any case it will be exciting to see what the outcome for our species will amount to in the future of what educational ties to the past has presented to us in the present.

Footnotes

[1] Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jorgensen-9; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on High-Range Tests, Writing, Social Media Dieting, and Teaching: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (9) [Online]. August 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jorgensen-9.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 1). Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on High-Range Tests, Writing, Social Media Dieting, and Teaching: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (9). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jorgensen-9.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on High-Range Tests, Writing, Social Media Dieting, and Teaching: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (9). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jorgensen-9 >.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jorgensen-9.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on High-Range Tests, Writing, Social Media Dieting, and Teaching: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (9).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jorgensen-9.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on High-Range Tests, Writing, Social Media Dieting, and Teaching: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (9)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jorgensen-9 >.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on High-Range Tests, Writing, Social Media Dieting, and Teaching: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (9)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jorgensen-9.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on High-Range Tests, Writing, Social Media Dieting, and Teaching: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (9).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jorgensen-9 >.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on High-Range Tests, Writing, Social Media Dieting, and Teaching: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (9) [Internet]. (2022, August 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jorgensen-9.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-08-01

Conversation with Victor Hingsberg on Life, Work, and Views: Founder & President of Global High IQ Society and TenIQ High IQ Network (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: August 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,020

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Victor Hingsberg is the owner and manager of several websites geared toward bringing together highly intelligent people from all over the world. The goal is to help those in the high IQ community make meaningful and long lasting connections. Aside from being a full time online entrepreneur, Victor is a retired contractor and bookkeeper and is currently working full time in the shipping industry. With his organization Global High IQ Society, Victor’s goal is to bring high IQ into the mainstream and foster an atmosphere where everyone can reach their full potential. He discusses: growing up; an extended self; family background; the experience with peers and schoolmates; some professional certifications; the purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence discovered; geniuses; the greatest geniuses; a genius from a profoundly intelligent person; profound intelligence necessary for genius; some work experiences and jobs; particular job path; more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses; the God concept; science; some of the tests taken and scores earned; ethical philosophy; social philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; worldview-encompassing philosophical system; meaning in life; meaning; an afterlife; the mystery and transience of life; and love.

Keywords: ethics, family, genius, gifted, Global High IQ Society, intelligence, I.Q., life, TenIQ High IQ Network, Victor Hingsberg, views.

Conversation with Victor Hingsberg on Life, Work, and Views: Founder & President of Global High IQ Society and TenIQ High IQ Network (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?

Victor Hingsberg[1],[2]*: I can’t say there were any prominent stories being told, but I know of the hardships my parents went through living in a communist country after the second world war ended. I guess the closest thing to prominence is the fact that they moved to Canada with very little in the way of personal belongs of value and worked hard to build a nest egg and create a chance for a more prosperous life for me and my sibling.

Jacobsen: Have these stories helped provide a sense of an extended self or a sense of the family legacy?

Hingsberg: Well, I would say the legacy would be one of immigrants having moved to Canada for a better life and contributing to the growth of this great country. This I would say is the legacy of Canada. So, I suppose my family legacy is a Canadian legacy.

Jacobsen: What was the family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Hingsberg: My parents are originally from Bosnia-Hercegovina which was part of what was known at the time as Yugoslavia. My family heritage is quite diverse, however, in that I have Serbian, German and Hungarian roots. As far as religion goes it’s a mix of Serbian Orthodox and Roman Catholic, but I have been raised Roman Catholic.

Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and an adolescent?

Hingsberg: To be honest, it wasn’t exactly ideal. Truth is, I never did fit in with my peers and was a bit of a loner and outcast. In adulthood I became much more socially adept, but still tended more towards introversion to the present day.

Jacobsen: What have been some professional certifications, qualifications, and trainings earned by you?

Hingsberg: I have a diploma in Business Administration – Accounting track and I did at one time hold a real estate license.

Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?

Hingsberg: I believe there are many purposes for intelligence tests. It’s a great way to assess one’s potential. To see what areas of strengths as well as areas of weakness one has. I also believe it’s a great tool for assessing one’s suitability in academic pursuits and what fields a candidate would be suited for. But most importantly to the individual it’s a great tool for self-discovery.

Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?

Hingsberg: Actually, for me it was discovered rather late in life. I was 34 when I was looking for IQ tests online and I happened upon a website for the International High IQ Society. They had several IQ tests of various types. If I recall they had a spatial, verbal, and a mixed test which was called the Ultimate IQ Test. I took this test and passed. I was a bit skeptical and reluctant but curiosity got the better of me and the very next day I paid the entrance fee and joined. Wow! It’s hard to believe that was 20 years ago.

Hingsberg: I’d say there’s a lot going on when comes to this phenomenon. Much of it relates to ego, jealousy, reverence for icons. I think there’s as much a fascination with extraordinarily gifted people among the regular masses as if they were somehow godlike, but also a resentment because such people make can make some people who are not secure with themselves to feel inferior. Truth is, no matter how intelligent one may be, no one is perfect and we all suffer from the same human frailties regardless of where we might sit on the bell curve.

Jacobsen: Who seems like the greatest geniuses in history to you?

Hingsberg: I would say it has to be Leonardo da Vinci. Not only was he a talented artist and painter, but his abilities and talents spanned across many disciplines and intellectual endeavors. This was a man who was both profoundly intelligent and profoundly creative.

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?

Hingsberg: I think a genius is someone who is capable of making paradigm shifting discoveries. Someone who can introduce a perspective no one has ever considered before. I think ingenuity and creativity are the keys to genius.

Jacobsen: Is profound intelligence necessary for genius?

Hingsberg: I don’t think profound intelligence is necessary for genius. It certainly helps, but I think along with other factors like creativity and perseverance; a high level of intelligence would be sufficient, but I don’t think profound intelligence is required for accomplishing feats of genius.

Jacobsen: What have been some work experiences and jobs held by you?

Hingsberg: I’ve worked in construction for a good part of my adult life. Mainly in the manufacture and installation of wooden staircases and handrails with my father for 20 years. I’ve been a woodworker, laborer, clerical, bookkeeping and estimator.

Jacobsen: Why pursue this particular job path?

Hingsberg: Initially, it was more out of necessity. Stay in the family business to help it grow. Really, my father got very busy with his work and needed an extra pair of hands. Creating something out of scratch is very satisfying work. Also, I enjoyed the administrative part of the business very much which is what led me to earn a diploma in Business Administration.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses? Those myths that pervade the cultures of the world. What are those myths? What truths dispel them?

Hingsberg: I think the idea of those with exceptional intelligence being superhuman or God-like is very prevalent and misguided. Notions that exceptionally gifted people are eternally wise and saint-like. Nothing could be further from the truth. History has shown geniuses and those of exceptionally high intelligence can suffer from various personality issues, neuroses and psychoses just as anyone else can. Some of the smartest people can also be the most irrational and foolish at times.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?

Hingsberg: I’ve worn many hats on this subject. I’ve started out as a theist because that’s what had been ingrained in my upbringing. I’ve been atheist, agnostic and these days I’m more of a deist and like to keep an open mind. These days I do believe there is a higher power. A God of sorts. In the past I was of the mind that if there is spirituality or a spirit realm and afterlife that the only religion that makes sense would be Buddhism something along similar lines. But these days I’m open to the notion of there being a Christian God. Whatever the case, I believe there is a higher power and a purpose to life.

Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?

Hingsberg: I believe it plays a significant role in my thoughts on the matter. I belief it always has to various degrees. Only difference now is I don’t take any of it at face value. There’s always more than meets the eye be it in science or any philosophy. Religion is more about faith and intuition while science is more about facts and data verification. I think it’s pointless to try proving or disproving faith.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations) for you?

Hingsberg: I’ve taken numerous tests from various test authors over the years. My IQ has ranged anywhere from 123 to mid 160s range depending on the test.

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Hingsberg: I think the Golden Rule is pretty much the Gold Standard as far as ethical philosophy goes. Do unto others as you would have them to you. I think it all comes down to empathy. The rest follows from there.

Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Hingsberg: Same as the ethical philosophy. A society without ethics or some common moral code adhered to by its citizens is doomed to implode.

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Hingsberg: I think pragmatism and a focus on the common good for all is what would make the most workable sense to me as a political philosophy. These days we are too far from what. Tribalism and seems to be permeating and I’d say polluting the political landscape these days. I think we all need to be united in working toward the betterment of humanity instead of fighting with each other over differing beliefs.

Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes some sense to you, even the most workable sense to you?

Hingsberg: That there really is no self. That we are all one and must therefore look out for one another. Strife and conflict perpetuates suffering which in turn instigates more strife and conflict creating even more suffering. It’s a rather horrific feedback loop. If we look after each other as we look after ourselves I believe we can alleviate and even end suffering.

Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Hingsberg: To me a worldview of openness, understanding tolerance and a sense of cooperation for the betterment of us all as individuals, societies and as human beings. It’s really the only thing that makes workable sense if we don’t want to destroy ourselves and this beautiful planet we live on.

Jacobsen: What provides meaning in life for you?

Hingsberg: Peace of mind. A sense of self and a sense of purpose. We find meaning in the things we do which we feel are purposeful. It’s really about finding the most harmonious we to exist in the chaotic universe we dwell in.

Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?

Hingsberg: I would say it’s a bit of both. I don’t believe it’s an either/or proposition. There’s a lot going on with introspection and meditation, but I don’t believe it can be done without and external environment to draw from. Also, you can’t really derive meaning from external stimuli if you don’t understand it or take the time to analyze it, contemplate it and meditate upon it. So, yes, I would definitely say it’s a bit of both.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, why, and what form? If not, why not?

Hingsberg: I don’t know if I believe in an afterlife with 100% certainty, but I believe if it exists, if we each have an eternal soul then it would be pure energy. Of course, we’d all like to think we’d still have our sentience intact in this form, but there really is no guarantee this is the case nor is there any reason we should assume so.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the mystery and transience of life?

Hingsberg: A co-worker of mine recently said he doesn’t take life too seriously. Sure, you must take things seriously, but not too seriously, because as he put it, “None of us are getting out of it alive”. I doubt any of us is smart enough to unravel the mysteries of life and we’re more likely to die trying. So, why not embrace the transient nature of life for the precious gift that it is?

Jacobsen: What is love to you?

Hingsberg: To me, love, is knowing, understanding and embracing your fellow humans. To love is to honor each other with compassion, kindness and grace. We all have our stories. We all have our issues, but in the end, we are all human and only here on this plane for a limited time. Let’s not squander this precious gift we have.

Footnotes

[1] Founder & President of Global High IQ Society and TenIQ High IQ Network.

[2] Individual Publication Date: August 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/hingsberg-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Victor Hingsberg on Life, Work, and Views: Founder & President of Global High IQ Society and TenIQ High IQ Network (1) [Online]. August 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/hingsberg-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, August 1). Conversation with Victor Hingsberg on Life, Work, and Views: Founder & President of Global High IQ Society and TenIQ High IQ Network (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/hingsberg-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Victor Hingsberg on Life, Work, and Views: Founder & President of Global High IQ Society and TenIQ High IQ Network (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, August. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/hingsberg-1 >.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Victor Hingsberg on Life, Work, and Views: Founder & President of Global High IQ Society and TenIQ High IQ Network (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (August 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/hingsberg-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Victor Hingsberg on Life, Work, and Views: Founder & President of Global High IQ Society and TenIQ High IQ Network (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/hingsberg-1 >.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Victor Hingsberg on Life, Work, and Views: Founder & President of Global High IQ Society and TenIQ High IQ Network (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/hingsberg-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Victor Hingsberg on Life, Work, and Views: Founder & President of Global High IQ Society and TenIQ High IQ Network (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): August. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/hingsberg-1 >.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Victor Hingsberg on Life, Work, and Views: Founder & President of Global High IQ Society and TenIQ High IQ Network (1) [Internet]. (2022, August 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/hingsberg-1.

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2022-07-22

Actuarial Sciences 2: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences in Practice (2)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 5,297

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Erik Haereid, born in 1963, grew up in Oslo, Norway. He studied mathematics, statistics and actuarial science at the University of Oslo in the 1980s and 90s, and is educated as an actuary. He has worked over thirty years as an actuary, in several insurance companies, as actuarial consultant, middle manager and broker. In addition, he has worked as an academic director (insurance) in a business school (BI). Now, he runs his own actuarial consulting company with two other actuaries. He is a former member of Mensa, and is a member of some high IQ societies (e.g., Olympiq, Glia, Generiq, VeNuS and WGD). He discusses: actuarial sciences in professional life; applicability in everyday life of a non-expert; using expertise to analyze the risks of something; mathematics and statistics; the maximum level of qualifications a Norwegian actuary can get; an actuary; and the major lessons.

Keywords: Actuarial Sciences, actuary, Erik Haereid, mathematics, statistics.

Actuarial Sciences 2: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences in Practice (2)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How does one apply actuarial sciences in professional life for you?

Erik Haereid[1],[2]*: As a bachelor in statistics, when I worked on my Cand. Scient. degree (which is almost the same as an M.Sc.), I had a part-time job in an actuary department in a Norwegian insurance company (from about 1987 to 1990). There I learned the basics about private individual life insurance products and life tables. At that time there were not usual with personal computers, and we used table books for each life insurance product. “N1964” (or was it 1963? I can’t remember) was one of some books with life tables and related formulas, describing how to calculate all possible premiums and reserves based on that single insurance product. Annuities and disability-products were based on different tables and had their own table books, and so were all group insurance products. These table books were the life insurance actuaries’ bible and tool.

A lot of the work in this actuary department was to control the mainframe systems, ensuring that all calculations that made the premiums and reserves were correct. When there were changes to a product or computer system, the actuaries had to be involved to include the formulas and calculations adapted to that new system. To everybody else, what happened inside the calculations were a black hole. We actuaries had to understand and translate the math into code and calculated numbers. We communicated a lot with the mainframe computer system programmers, and we used our calculators and after some time our personal computers and spreadsheets to ensure that the formulas and calculations where right; testing the mainframe computer’s calculations was an important job for the actuaries. When there were flaws, computer bugs and so on, we had to step in and find what’s wrong (and this happened often).

In general, you can say that an important part of actuarial science is about optimizing premiums; make it as small as possible to meet the customers need, and as big as necessary to meet the insurance company’s need (solvency). This balance is challenged all the time. I will talk much more about this later.

In my first jobs, the actuarial science part was to know and understand how the premiums and reserves, all the calculations, was build and why. All life tables were based on the same principles; the math was stable, and we didn’t change premiums based on more experiences (like one did in let’s say automobile insurance). We didn’t alter the mathematical foundation of the life tables. The death rates were reliable; they were quite easy to predict. The relative high levels of the interest rates were also rather established. The solvency of the insurance companies was subject to no worry. At that time.

It’s scientifically more demanding working with risks that are under great volatility and variation, and/or are subject to few experiences. Non-life insurances are in that manner more demanding than life insurances; traditionally. I have never worked with non-life insurances, and have of that reason never been exposed to great changes in risks, with the demands to continuously modify different mathematical methods. But, as I will talk about later, throughout the 1990’s and 2000’s the challenges occurred even in the life insurance discipline.

After my first job, I finished my final exam and started in a new job as actuary in another insurance company (1991 to 1995). The products and tasks were to begin with quite similar to those in the previous job, but I became more involved in product design and development of new formulas. The traditional life insurance business (including pensions and annuities) was under change, and converged towards more bank-oriented products; separate module-like products. Traditionally, the insurance risk elements in life insurance, pensions and annuities were parts of a mandatory package; the premium included savings (either as a lump sum/single premium, a general annuity or a pension premium), some sort of death benefit, spouse and children benefits if the insured died (riders and modules linked to pensions) and a disability coverage. The insured couldn’t choose elements and riders freely. You could of course buy a pure annuity, but then you had not many choices as to the death benefit part of the policy. This was under change, not at least because the old products at that time demanded a quite skilled salesman/agent, who usually used a lot of time selling and explaining to the customers, making the product’s administration cost part much higher. If one could sell insurance through the bank channels, like any other bank saving product, one could reduce the cost and make the insurance products more available, and the life insurance companies could grow.

I was part of a group (in my second job) in the beginning of the 1990’s, where we developed such a pension product, which aim was to make it simpler, more understandable and to sell it through the bank channels; a Unit-Linked kind of a product (ULIP). As to actuarial science, the challenges was not of other mathematical art than adapting a for the government sufficient risk element to the savings; either as part of the pension itself, or by making some of the additional coverage compulsory. When the executives and authorities agreed upon what kind of risk structure we could provide, the actuaries’ job was to create the necessary mathematics, resulting in right/sufficient premiums and reserves. And after that implementing this into the mainframe service system and the computer sales system that the salesmen (e.g., employees in the banks) used (this was the dawn of personal computers, and the agents started to use software programs instead of pen, paper and calculators to communicate with their clients).

At this time, the yield raised sky-high. The old structure operated with consistent guaranteed interest rates on pensions, annuities and other life insurance products, which from 1964 and until then, at the beginning of 1990, was 4 percent. This resulted in an increasing surplus, which was shared between the insurance company, its owners and the customers. Instead of handing out money to the customers, one could reduce their premiums. As to promotion and sales, this was cleverer than give “something” back after the insurance companies’ accounts were closed some months after year end. But as to ensuring the solvency in the long term, this was catastrophic, because it wasn’t built on actuarial science or basic financial methods. It was based on some naïve unscientifically drive born out from the illusion of eternal and exponential growth.

Maybe one should have used actuaries more consistently as consultants. It was damaging to promise customers up to 10 percent interest rates on their savings, for up to 10 years, only because the prognoses were sky-high. Nevertheless, as a young actuary with no other influence than pure mathematical, I saw it as a fine challenge contributing to an interest rate stair; 10 percent guaranteed interest rate for the first ten years, 7 percent for the next few years, and finally 4 percent for the rest (often for the rest of the insured lives).

Such products were of course stopped some years later, when one realized that these kinds of promises would kill the insurance companies. The insight was established, as usual, by explicit experience. When the interest rate dropped, one started debating guaranteed interest rates per se. Since one has to use some kind of interest rate in the calculation of pension premiums and reserves, and since it’s not a custom in the insurance business using expected values of stochastic variables concerning the interest rate (i.e., establishing an interest rate risk pool, similar to the other risk pools), one decided and decides to use guaranteed interest rates with almost no probability exceeding the actual return within the particular timespan, and limit this timespan to a certain termination age; e.g., 77 or 82 years (fixed term).

Since interest rates are volatile by nature, one would have a sensibility towards the development in the financial market; the expected future basic interest rate should theoretically change from year to year, or at least let’s say each 5 years, to gain a better estimate of the expected future interest rate than using a constant and almost arbitrary interest rate, like 4 or 2 percent over some long period of time (Btw, this is what happens when assessing DBO’s (Defined Benefit Obligation) in companies’ balance sheets; as to pension liabilities; the discount rate used in the calculations is determined based on the market at (year-end) measuring date; this has its big disadvantages too, which I will talk about later.). From an actuary’s point of view, you would then operate with several paid-up policies; e.g., one for each year you have been insured. Every paid-up policy would then result in a calculated single premium and continuing reserve based on that year’s basic interest rate, and from this a future benefit (e.g., pension or annuity). The total reserve on a given time would then be the sum of all those previous paid-up policies’ calculated reserves at that time, all with different basic interest rates. But still, you have the eternal issue concerning defined benefit saving products; you promise some kind of future benefit, and then also some kind of interest rate. For the actuary, these products define life insurance saving products. The quick fix products, the defined contribution pensions, lack the stochastic variables and the risk elements. This is bank, and exclude actuarial sciences.

One difference between a traditionally used guaranteed, basic interest rate and a theoretical best estimate (i.e., the optimal estimate of the expected value) of a stochastic interest rate, is that the guaranteed interest rate is contracted as a minimum, while the expected stochastic one would be given you independent of what the actual return became (like a fixed interest rate). If one would start to treat the basic interest rate as a stochastic variable, and promise the customers the expected future interest rates, you would, because of the increasing uncertainty and problematic statistical foundation in the long term, have to operate with quite low, and certain, interest rates many years from now. Even though you could say almost for sure that 5 percent interest rate was a very good estimated expected value for the next 10 years, you couldn’t say anything certain about the expected value of the interest rate in the period let’s say 40 to 50 years from now, and that is a main challenge by using interest rates like this. But it shouldn’t exclude scientific approaches to it.

A decent statistical model could deal with a decreasing interest rate stair, starting with a high expected value (e.g., 6 percent) the first few years, and then reduce the interest rate systematically until the last possible year from now, which for some annuities and pensions are about 100 years (e.g., a 20 years old got a longevity pension).

To sum up: One way to optimize and preserve the traditional defined benefit saving products is to create annual paid-up policies as mentioned, and use actuarial science to create some sort of a probability function based on a stochastic interest rate stair, which changes parameters from year to year, dependent of the financial market.

The concept of the traditionally arrangement, where the customers and the insurance companies have to deal with some kind of future interest rate in the contract and in the settlement of the liabilities, is in the area of group pension schemes known as Defined Benefit Pensions/Plans (DBP). The alternative is called Defined Contribution Pensions/Plans (DCP), and is similar to ordinary bank accounts; you get what the market gives you, afterwards. You are not promised anything in advance; the insurance companies’ obligations are nothing more than what is on the customers’ accounts at every moment. To make it an insurance product, you have to include, make mandatory, some sort of death/health/disability economical risks. If the beneficiaries just get the savings when events occur, you don’t have any economic risks to it, and it’s not insurance. DCP’s are typically pure savings with no guaranteed interest rates, but with additional life insurance elements like something more or less than the savings paid by death (e.g., a fixed-term deferred annuity, riders like spouse and children’s pension, and disability coverage).

Another actuarial challenge is the fact that people live much longer than before. The (life) insurance companies normally dealt with this the same way as with the interest rate issue; they tried (and try) to reduce the risks the easy way, by avoiding promoting longevity annuities and pensions (i.e., they promote fixed term annuities), and they reduce the risk by minimizing the difference between the savings and the benefits. It’s understandable, because there are statistical and mathematical uncertainties linked to both future interest rates and long lives. It’s not the short-term risks we do not know much about, but the long-term ones. But as an actuary, promoting actuarial science, it’s not optimal. You could say there is a minor clash between actuaries’ and the authorities’, executives’ and owners’ need and wishes.

Folketrygden (The Norwegian national social insurance scheme) has gone through quite severe changes since 1990, in accordance to meet the problems mentioned. In addition to the risk-factors, you have the flexibility that people demand. In the old days, twenty-thirty years ago and before, the pension products, both concerning private and public, was quite sterile and non-flexible. E.g., the retirement age was (normally) 67. Period. You could not work while you got pension, without losing money. This has changed; now you can get your pension from 62, and whenever you want until 75 or so, and you don’t lose pension if you work besides. In Denmark, where I worked for some while, you could choose between getting your pension benefit as an annuity or a lump sum. The demands for flexibility also have some influence on the actuarial work.

Jacobsen: How do actuarial sciences have applicability in everyday life of a non-expert?

Haereid: Interesting question, that I haven’t thought much about. You can as a layman learn some basic combinatorics, probability theories and statistics, using it to enhance your winning chances in games and competitions, e.g., increase the probability for profit, and use it to gain more out of your investments in the financial market.

Everyone can be aware of different daily risks, and make some simple calculations to avoid certain situations or seek other. E.g., you can avoid driving your car at certain places and moments, by collecting information about when and where the most dangerous car accidents appear. But “drive carefully” is something everyone intuitively knows will reduce the risk of car accidents. You could also use actuarial science into health-relevant situations, like related to what you eat and how you exercise; treat your body in a way that reduce risks for diseases.

In general, thinking like an actuary could become exhausting, because one would tend to overthink risks; make fast risk calculations about any- and everything through your day. Then you would reduce every risk factor, but also end up with fewer experiences and less fun. The gain is to reduce risks where the consequences are really bad in case of an event, and to increase your profit and earnings.

I want to give an obscure example of use of combinatorics:

Let’s say you are confined in a room with a combination lock; a panel with the digits 0 to 9. There are no one to help you out. You know that you have a livable environment for two days, and after that you will die if you don’t get out. You have also noticed that the code has 4 different digits in a fixed sequence, and that you, in average, except when you rest, will manage to push one possible combination each two seconds. You can then calculate if it’s probable that you will manage to open the door within the time limit, or if you should try some other way out.

There are 5040 possible outcomes (let’s simplify it and suppose there are no equal digits in the code), and just one of them is right. Then you, statistically, will get the answer midway; after 2*5040/2 seconds = 84 minutes (plus pauses), and if you are really unlucky you will get out after 168 minutes. That’s sufficient. But if the code consists of 6 digits instead of 4, you would get out within one week without pauses (3,5 days and nights in average), and there would be a possibility that you would die before you got out.

Another example: If you are middle-aged, especially a male because of the higher mortality than females, and you live healthy and have good genes as to family diseases, you should purchase a fixed term annuity (i.e., with no death benefit before the termination date); because of the mortality bequest. Since you think you will live longer than the average, you will, if you are right, pay less to gain more, e.g., compared to if you saved the same amount in a bank.

Finally, I will mention a Swedish physician and statistician, Hans Rosling, who had a tremendous ability to explain statistics in a simple way for the people, and make everyone a bit wiser and more informed. Maybe he could be an inspiration for us who work with mathematics and statistics.

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, if you have an ordinary event in life, how can an actuary use expertise to analyze the risks of something? What is the relevance of this in one’s life?

Haereid: I haven’t thought a lot about this either, maybe because I want to work as an actuary and not becoming one 24/7. As long as the ordinary events in life are stochastic, or random if you like, and you have a minimum of information, i.e., empirical data about those events to occur (when, where, how and so on), you can most often use math to say something about the future outcome. It’s about using probability functions and knowledge together with collected information, to draw some kind of risk analysis. The difference between the layman and the actuary is the amount of knowledge; the actuary will have access to better estimation procedures, and therefore give a better prediction of possible events.

There are a lot of probability distributions (e.g., normal, chi-square, student’s t, binomial, Poisson…) that fit into daily life events’ patterns. In lack of a probability distribution that fits, you can draw your own by plotting the collected data into a graph. E.g., the probability for car crash divided by age (in lack of knowledge of an existing one): If you search for statistics on this, you will probably find that there are quite many young men that crash their cars often. The curve will fall until a certain age (men in the 30-50-year area drive more carefully), and then turn around and rise; old men crash their car more often than middle-aged men. If you have a lot of data, you can draw a quite nice curve, that probably would look something like an inverse normal distribution, or as a distorted parabola, if you like. Then you have made your own probability distribution in lack of an existing one, that fits into these events. And then you can say something about the probability for car crashes categorized by age.

One of the mantras in statistical analysis is correlation and the amount of empirical data. You can gather tons of data, but it doesn’t help if it’s uncorrelated. Without enough data, it’s difficult to establish if there are correlation or not. But, when you have enough collected historical information about any unknown future event, and you have detected a correlation, you can say something about this event in the future. If you gather data that don’t show any correlation (you can’t say anything about when, where, how, who and so on, that results in crash), you can’t draw any statistical analysis which say something about such events to happen. It happens by chance. One nice thing with this is that you don’t necessarily need to know the cause of events, if you can establish a correlation. If two seemingly independent variables, like peoples’ vacation habits and the habitats of mallards, show strong statistical correlation, it could be used (to something) without knowing the reason why this is so.

In general, if you know something about probability theories, you can use this to determine an actual or estimated probability distribution to every event that you don’t know the outcome of (when, where, if, how much… will happen), and to use this probability function to direct your own behavior. If you know that the probability of occurrence of an event hitting you is 10% if you choose the one direction, and 8% if you choose the second, you would choose the 10% direction if you want that event to happen (e.g., earning money, getting friends, increasing happiness…) and the 8% direction if you want to avoid that event. To this kind of events the layman would think it was a 50/50 chance, but with some math and data you could say something more precise about it, and (in the long run) take advantage of this. E.g., into gambling or being active in the stock market.

Jacobsen: What mathematics and statistics are used in an actuary’s professional life?

Haereid: I will focus on my own branch; life insurance and probabilities for death and survival. Keywords are the Gompertz-Makeham distribution, the Thieles differential equation and the Markov chain, which all are essential in life insurance.

The life tables are based on the Gompertz-Makeham distribution, which plots mortality divided into age. It describes how mortality basically increases exponentially with age, which is based on Gompertz research from the 19th century. Since human also dies of other than “natural” reasons, e.g., pandemic diseases, natural catastrophes and so on, one added an age-independent part to the distribution (Makeham), also this in the same century.

The Dane Thorvald Thiele made one of his contributions to life insurance when he, also in the 1800’s, introduced the Thieles differential equation. This made its influence in life insurance through the 19th and 20th century. It describes the premium reserves as a differential equation, as the expected discounted value of future events (benefits minus premiums paid), and is basic in life insurance.

In insurance we have something called the equivalence principle. This states that the expected present values of payments should be equal to those of benefits. Usually, premium formulas contain a death probability (and sometimes disability and other health-related probabilities), evolved from a life table (as mentioned), and an interest rate, which usually is a parameter and not a probability. These two quantities are involved in the equivalence principle. One calculates the expected present values of the upcoming premiums and benefits respectively, weighted with the probability of occurrence of the events involved, at any time in the insured period. Reserves are calculated at any time based on the same principle.

Because we operate with only one stochastic variable, one life, the formula is simple. But there is possible to expand this into several random variables, e.g., using a Markov chain (stochastic process).

Jacobsen: Theoretically, what are the maximum level of qualifications a Norwegian actuary can get now? The upper limit in education, experience, credentials, memberships, etc., to know the entire discipline.

Haereid: Since, as said, there have been different paths the last fifty years to achieve an actuarial competence in Norway, it’s not a unique set of qualifications. Some actuaries add a doctor degree to their education, and become university lecturers (assistant professors, professors). As to experience, I would say being an “actuary in charge” in an insurance company, is the peak. There are no major credentials beyond “actuary”. There are some additional credentials to those who take courses through their professional lives, as an adult education, e.g., in financial mathematics and related disciplines. There are primarily one actuarial society in Norway (Den Norske Aktuarforening), where most of the Norwegian actuaries are members. An experienced actuary in Norway is typical a senior consultant, either in an independent actuary consultant company, in an insurance company or in governmental department. Some actuaries have been (and are) executives in insurance companies and units.

Jacobsen: How many years have you been an actuary?

Haereid: From 1991; 31 years. I worked as an actuary novice from 1987, beside studying and finishing my final exams.

Jacobsen: From this extensive experience, what have been the major lessons from the discipline for you?

Haereid: There is traditionally a canyon, a cleft, between actuaries and the rest of the insurance realm. We speak different languages. We have to learn each other’s dialects.

Besides that, I will mention:

– The insurance business, including the social welfare pensions and insurances, often choose unscientific solutions to the extent they are able to fulfill their obligations. Keep it as simple as possible, is a common mantra. Understandably. And archetypical. The tendency during the last forty years is not only more transparent and flexible insurance products, which is good, but also products with less risks; the (life) insurance business moves away from its essence (providing products containing risks and probability). One reason is to be independent of a small group of professionals (actuaries), another to make it easier predicting the future. Other reasons are to prevent insolvency, fulfilling the obligations, making the administration simpler and cheaper, creating products that are easy to explain and understand (both to the customers and the employees that are not actuaries or sufficient skilled) …

– The insurance companies could profit on cooperating and communicating more with the universities, get access to updated research and theoretical knowledge, that would improve the business. I don’t say there isn’t any communication, but this is an area for improvement, and especially associated with the many issues we see and will see. There are probably (for sure) some (actuarial) scientific theories that is never applied, because the communication is poor, the level of knowledge in the insurance companies is too low, and the aversion to more complicated products and structures is too big.

– One of the positive sides is that transparence, computer evolution and more flexible products have made an old fashion rigid and conservative business into something modern and more accessible.

I have to say something about the increasing openness and transparence from the 1980’s. Before that process started, there was close to no information available. If the customers wondered what the premium contained of risk and savings elements, the answer was “n/a”. If they wondered what the premium reserve consisted of, e.g., what this year’s actual return was, the answer was the same. There was no law that forced the insurance companies to create such detailed information. This changed dramatically from the 1980’s, not at least because of the development in computers and software. The technology made it possible to become more transparent, and this increasing transparency also created new products. I remember vaguely when we created and sent the first detailed account statement to our customers. This was really a cutting-edge happening.

– The longevity contracts in life insurance, pensions and annuities, which terminates when the insured dies, entails some big challenges. The mathematical risk models are not that good when it comes to predictions 40-100 years from now; it’s not easy to calculate valid probabilities as to interest rates and death within that time span. We just don’t know enough about what happens then, and this impels the insurance companies and social pension entities to evolve either products that terminates within a certain age (fixed term), or to create contracts that make the customers bear the burden. This should be a pleasing area for actuaries, since it demands more scientific creativity.

– Why use low guaranteed interest rates, and volatile discount rates, when calculating premiums, reserves and companies’ pension liabilities? Why not using probability theories and actuarial science to create more intricate and better solutions to the very important “interest rate” issue?

– Paid-up policies have always been abandoned in Norway; there are huge funds that only get a return equal to the guaranteed interest rate, which usually is far less than the actual return. Over a period of some decades, this amounts to large sums. The owners are not sufficient aware of this thievery. The customers lose a lot of money; the same amount which the insurance companies earn. I can’t understand that this is legitimate.

– General solvency issues in the insurance business. Volatile financial markets, roller coaster interest rates, too wide guarantees and long lives have led to unstable funding situations. This has led to a necessary reinforcement of the solvency rules in the insurance business.

– Actuaries could contribute more to the overall insurance business. We are not used enough to form the future insurance politics and products, neither to direct the insurance business. Actuaries could into a larger degree contribute to the developments of social welfare programs and life insurance. A recent example of this is a group of different experts and politicians that in 2020 was selected with the aim of writing a paper of how to make our Norwegian social security pension system more sustainable in the future. Their suggestions were released some days ago. My point is that there was not one actuary selected to be in this diverse group of people. Why is that? Competition between professions?

– Actuaries have traditionally been occupied with the liability side of the balance sheets. This has changed the last couple of decades. My impression is that actuaries are used increasingly more into the asset side.

– In group pension insurance, there has been a stream of changeovers from the traditional and far betterer Defined Benefit Pension schemes (DBP) to the United-linked (this is primarily associated with single persons) similar kind of products, labeled Defined Contribution Pension schemes (DCP). This is a benchmark regarding the «deactuaryization» of life insurance products, especially those with long duration. The main goal is not to reduce the pension cost for the group (companies and employees’ pension scheme), but to remove the uncertainty with the liability side of the balance sheets. This is done by transferring the responsibility for the investment return from the employer to the employees. The impact on the account is clear: From a volatile and uncertain net amount in the balance sheet, to a net amount = 0. And from an unstable pension cost to a stable and predictable one. For the employer this is Shangri-La. For the employee this is uncertainty as to pension planning.

– This is associated with the previous point, and is about calculation of companies’ pension liabilities and accounting. It is a huge disadvantage that one is obligated to use the discount rate estimated based on the market at the year-end-date. This parameter is without comparison the most important and influential quantity in the calculations, and have huge impact on the volatility of the liabilities in the balance sheets. If one could estimate a more stable discount rate, based on financial and actuarial mathematics and statistics, we could prevent an unwanted coercion from DB to DC pensions.

– Traditionally, the communication processes between the actuarial environment and the executives and other involved in the insurance business, have been bumpy. It’s a challenge communicating difficult products and their frames. My experience is that this issue leads to an insurance culture that avoids the actuarial involvement. And this leads to simpler products, with less demanding risk elements, and less actuarial science related to them. It’s like limiting buildings to three floors because skyscrapers are complicated.

– The Norwegian national social insurance scheme (Folketrygden) has gone through several changes the last many (30-40) years (e.g., because of long lives and increased flexibility). This is too broad to say more about here, but it’s important to mention.

Footnotes

[1] Member, World Genius Directory. Actuary.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Actuarial Sciences 2: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences in Practice (2) [Online]. July 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 22). Actuarial Sciences 2: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences in Practice (2) . Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-2.

Brazilian Natio0ffffffnal Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Actuarial Sciences 2: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences in Practice (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Actuarial Sciences 2: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences in Practice (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Actuarial Sciences 2: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences in Practice (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Actuarial Sciences 2: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences in Practice (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Actuarial Sciences 2: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences in Practice (2) ’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Actuarial Sciences 2: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences in Practice (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Actuarial Sciences 2: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences in Practice (2) [Internet]. (2022, July 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-2.

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2022-07-22

Sigma Test Extended

Author: Hindemburg Melão Jr.

Translator (Portuguese to English): Eisque Nezuka

Editor and Reviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.B, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 13,795

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

This article presents the Sigma Test Extended of Hindemburg Melão Jr. as the most difficult and reliable cognitive test for the measurement of the psychological construct of intelligence. With a preamble on intelligence tests and case studies of known high scorers on alternative tests and mainstream intelligence tests, concluded by analysis of distributions and norms, and endorsements, the formal Sigma Test Extended is presented in the paper in full.

Keywords: Alfred Binet, Anderson-Darling, Bruce Whiting, Cattell Culture Fair, chi-square comparison, Christopher Philip Harding, Cronbach’s α, David Letterman, Ferris Eugene Alger, FIDE ratings, Francis Galton, g factor, Gaussian distribution, intelligence, IQ, James Cattell, Johannes Douglas Veldhuis, Keith Raniere, Kevin Langdon, Kim Ung-yong, Kolmogorov-Smirnov, Leta Speyer, Lewis Terman, Marilyn vos Savant, Mega Test, Nobel Prize, Rick Rosner, Robert Bryzman, Sigma Society, Sigma Test Extended, USCF ratings, Wechsler.

Sigma Test Extended

*Please see the footnotes and citation style listing after the article.*[1],[2]

*Original publication here (in Portuguese): https://www.sigmasociety.net/sigmatest-extended, exception non-original submission permitted.*

Sigma Test Extended aims to be the most difficult and reliable cognitive test for measuring the “intelligence” construct, especially for people with an IQ above 160 (σ=16), requiring a wide range of cognitive skills at different levels of depth and complexity.

At the same time, it is a test that does not require specialized knowledge. Only general knowledge of elementary school, middle school, and high school. In some specific cases, it may be necessary to make small queries about the meaning of some words, but there is no need for specialized training in any specific area.

The ultimate goal of an accurate intelligence test is not to measure your ability to solve the questions on the test itself. The aim is to use these questions as an indirect means of discovering other, more important competencies. Therefore, one cannot lose sight of the primary objective to be achieved, otherwise one runs the risk of creating addicts to IQ tests, instead of discovering talents for Science, Mathematics, and other important fields of knowledge.

This is the purpose of STE, measuring the ability to solve diverse real-world problems, problems ranging from everyday issues to problems with an Olympic level of difficulty, requiring a combination of divergent and convergent thinking at different levels of sophistication, whose issues are compatible with the skill levels you want to measure. This is an important differentiator, because IQ tests have severely skewed ceilings. The Stanford-Binet V, for example, can have the ceiling extrapolated by up to 225 IQ, as can be seen in the following table:

However, the most difficult questions on the Stanford-Binet V can be easily solved by people with an IQ of 135 to 140. This produces a very large disparity between measured IQ and true IQ. Anyone with an IQ of 140, as long as they are fast enough and have a good cultural level, can reach over 200 IQ on this test, generating a gigantic amount false diagnoses of genius. This does not mean that distortions are always upwards. The way in which standardization is done, this would not be possible, because if it were like that, the average would be displaced. Therefore, upward distortions occur at approximately the same frequency and magnitude as downward distortions. As a result, really great people can score far below their true potential on this test. This has been proven several times. In the study carried out by Lewis Terman, starting in the year 1921, 1528 children with an IQ above 135, none of the 1528 selected children won a Nobel Prize, nor any other international prize of great importance in scientific areas or in Mathematics. But among the children who failed the test, two of them were awarded the Nobel Prize in Physics. This makes it evident that the Stanford-Binet, while very good and accurate for measuring IQs between 70 and 130, is not appropriate for higher levels. Terman’s group included about 100 children with an IQ over 175, but none of them won 1 Nobel, with the average IQ of Nobel laureates in Science being 154. This is another serious inconsistency in the scores produced by the Stanford-Binet at the highest scores.

How Terman’s study was carried out with people screened as children, it could be argued that the problem was not inherent in the test, but in the fact that they were screened too early. In fact, this is also one of the problems, but it is not the only one. It is not enough to explain all the observed anomalies. To better clarify this point, it is worth citing the cases of people registered in the Guinness Book for having the highest IQ in the world based on Stanford-Binet scores applied at different ages:

The first record of this modality in the Guinness Book occurred in 1966, in which Chris Harding was presented as the person with the highest IQ in the world, for having obtained a score 196-197 in the Stanford-Binet (I believe that the 1960 standardization form was used, Stanford-Binet L-M). In a normal distribution with a mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 16, only one in 1 billion people have an IQ above 196. However, the number of people screened with the Stanford-Binet was in the few thousand. In the standardization process, the samples were also in the few thousand. Thus, the best that could be done was to place the test ceiling close to 155 to 160, and even then there would still be the problem that the most difficult questions were at a difficulty level close to 140, so scores 160 would only indicate higher speed to solve problems level 140, instead of indicating an intellectual level of 160.

In the 1970s and 1980s, Kevin Langdon and several other people started showing up with scores of 196-197, claiming to share the record for the highest IQ. Some of the people who applied for registration as the person with the highest IQ in the world between 1966 and 1978 were:

Christopher Philip Harding
Kevin Langdon
Bruce Whiting
Robert Bryzman
Leta Speyer
Johannes Douglas Veldhuis
Ferris Eugene Alger

Also, there were other cases after 1978 claiming the record, with nominal Iqs above 197:

Kim Ung-yong with IQ 210
Marilyn vos Savant with IQ 230, then corrected to 228, to 218, to 186, then 190
Keith Raniere, with IQ 242

Finally, Guinness removed this modality. One of the likely reasons is the apparent clear fact of inadequate standardization allowing fair comparison. The adjustment metrics from childhood to adulthood scores were skewed. Also, the use of different tests produced very different scores. Another reason aggravating this was the controversy over Marilyn being accused of falsifying the dates in her report and Keith Raniere being arrested, accused of several crimes, including murder. In Marilyn’s case, I think her version is very plausible. She claims to have taken the test at age 10, but it was incorrectly recorded on her chart as if she had been tested at 11 years and 4 months. About this controversy, to the point of knowing the facts, I side with Marilyn. I explain the reason: in 2004 and 2005, I worked as a consultant at the main Psychology publisher in Brazil. I standardized and revised several tests of IQ. I could see that the number of registration errors in the data of the people examined was absurdly large, reaching more than 5%. It was very common for people registered with birth year 2040, birth month greater than 12, among others. So, I think, it’s much more likely the psychologist who examined her got the date wrong. Considering Marilyn’s history, I have no reason to question her sincerity, while the history of recording errors in psychometric reports is frequent. In Keith’s case, the facts and evidence against him are plentiful and unquestionable.

The important point is a test applied to a few thousand people in the standardization process, does not allow an establishment of a ceiling above 160 with the aggravating factor that the ceiling of difficulty does not exceed 140. Howeve, even if the test was able to measure up to 196, and even if everyone in the world was examined with the Stanford-Binet (considering that some people would be children and others would be very old), one wouldn’t find more than 3 or 4 in the world with an IQ above 196. However, in a sample of a few thousand people, there were 10 people with an IQ above 196, with some reaching 242, whose rarity is many orders of magnitude outside the limit of the number of people ever born A rarity level of 1 in 2.86 × 10^15 where the number of people already born is about 10^11.

It is a fact. This sample of a few thousand is not representative of the general population. Therefore, it is natural that more people with high IQs would be found in this sample than in a random sample of the population. If you apply an IQ test to Harvard or Cambridge students, it is natural that the average score is much higher than the average score of the general population. Also, it is very likely that some of the 10 smartest people in the US or the UK are in these institutions. The main problem is not the statistical anomaly. The biggest problem is that 100% of those people with IQs above 196 didn’t stand out as scientists, mathematicians, or authors of brilliant intellectual works that matched the measured IQs.

Marilyn herself, in an interview on the David Letterman show, made the following comment (excerpt from the interview):

D: I have uh, I have miserable teeth. I mean, they’re healthy… [Paul laughs aloud] They’re just odd, they’re odd. You know, I can eat things through fences. [laughter] Not that there’s any call for that, but uh… Allright, now Marilyn, let’s get back to you and your… uh… head. [laughter] Uh, what uh… now how do we know you’re the smartest woman in the world?

M: Well, you probably don’t know that, I don’t think anyone really knows that, not that many people have taken an IQ test. And so I had the highest score on the Benet… so far… but this very…

D: [trying to interrupt] Now when did you…

M: …small minority of people in the world have taken a test, and… [dramatically] what did Benet know, for heaven’s sake? [Paul & Dave both chuckle as Marilyn rambles] I mean back in 1904, he didn’t… [laughter] he didn’t stumble over a Rosetta Stone, he said, “This is what I think I’m gonna do,” and everybody’s been imitating him ever since.

Chris Harding, in a 2013 article stated:

“Genius is not intelligence. Genius is creative ability of the highest possible kind. True, most geniuses are highly intelligent, but this depends on the field their genius was recognized in. And here there is a plethora of problems. Recognized by whom; which people, what society, when and where. There is an old joke that goes something like I will believe in psychologists devising tests from geniuses when monkeys devise tests for psychologists. I do have ideas of my own on this, but so far no one seems interested in this. I was listed in the Guinness Book of World Records seven editions 1982-88 under “Highest IQ” and was given a certificate for this. I was also listed in 500 Great Minds of the Early 21st Century in 2002. All such lists-comparisons are temporary. There appears less and less match between persons and outcomes these days. Humanity hangs by it’s intellectual neck on the tree of tragedy –there are no Leonardo’s in the 19th, 20th, and so far in the 21st Century. Yet he/she must still exist we should think? With mass education has come the noisy ones but no Geniuses to show for it all. Bad money has driven out good money, bad people good people. The masses have come to judge the best and are part of this process to drive out the very people they need most, all in the name of incorrectly accessed political correctness. Today the system has driven down performance; today big institutional science has been a spoiler of great insights delaying progress everywhere. Today it is business as usual. The criminal come to the top. My greatest fear is that an end is coming to the centuries of progress that mankind has grown use to. The age of genius may be at an end. I’m sorry to ramble on this in such a `scatter gun’ way.”

Marilyn’s statement is superficial because it is compatible with the TV show aimed at the mass audience, but her columns in Parade magazine are very high and deep, consistent with the IQ 186-190 that she got on the Mega Test. Chris Harding’s statement, although short and on a topic that doesn’t offer much depth, also reveals a very high intellectual level. His opinion on the meaning of “genius” is questionable, but for a one-paragraph text it is acceptable. And the key point is that both recognize that scores measured by conventional IQ tests present several problems and cannot be taken too seriously when used to try to assess intelligence at higher IQ levels.

This shows that, although scores in the range of 70 to 130 are able to measure intelligence reasonably well, as the scores move away from the mean, what the tests measure gradually ceases to be intelligence and becomes something more shallow, such as reasoning speed for trivial questions or mechanical repetition of tasks. The problem is that as the IQ to be measured increases, the test continues to measure the same variable, but the meaning of intelligence changes. For children aged 8 to 12 with an IQ between 80 and 130, it may be appropriate to measure the ability to spell words without making mistakes as a satisfactory criterion for determining written communication aptitude. However, if applying this same method to try to estimate communication aptitude writing by Shakespeare or by Dostoevsky, it is evident the result will be skewed. It is neither because these writers are too quick at spelling nor because they are infallible at it. They can even make more mistakes than a well-trained 8-year-old who has “talent” at spelling. The point is, this criterion is no longer useful at the levels of Shakespeare, Goethe, or Dostoevsky. In fact, it ceases to be useful at much lower levels, close to 125 or 130. The same problem occurs when trying to use elementary questions like the Stanford-Binet ones to measure intellectual levels above 140.

The fact is the Nobel prize-winner average IQ is at the rarity level of one in 3,000, while the frequency of Nobel prize-winner in the population is less than one in 1 million, also corroborates that scores above 130 on the Stanford-Binet are highly distorted, dramatically failing to “let go” of the brightest people, while at the same time incorrectly selecting several who are not really bright, but just quick at performing trivial tasks.

This is not a defect unique to the Stanford-Binet. All the best IQ tests including WAIS, Raven, Cattell, DAT, D70, etc., have this same problem (and, obviously, there are more and worse problems in tests that aren’t the best). One of the main reasons for this is the same as already mentioned: these tests attempt to measure IQs at levels well above 140, but do not include questions with a difficulty level above 135.

To solve this problem, in 1973, Kevin Landgon created the LAIT (Landgon Adult Intelligence Test). Tthe first really difficult intelligence test, capable of measuring correctly until close to 165. In 1982, Ronald Hoeflin published his Mega Test, later the Titan Test, Ultra Test, and Power Test. The Hoeflin tests could correctly measure up to about 170 or even 180 IQ.

Thus, a new era of intelligence testing has been inaugurated. The traditional tests used in clinics to measure in the range of 70 to 130 continued to exist, covering more than 95% of the population, and it also became possible to measure intelligence at much higher levels. However, these tests have not yet reached the “critical point” that allows us to correctly identify genius minds. The people with the highest scores on the Hoeflin tests are undoubtedly very smart: Rick Rosner, Chris Langan, Marilyn Vos Savant, etc. With scores of 190 or above. But when you compare the intellectual output of these people with that of a Nobel laureate with an IQ of 160, the difference is blatantly favorable to the Nobel Prize. Something was still missing from the variables to be measured at the top of the difficulty level. In the years and decades that followed, other tests were created, including the Eureka, Logima Stricta, and the Sigma Test.

Sigma Test, since its first version, tries to be innovative in several aspects. This does not mean that it has achieved this purpose, but, at least, we are trying. Some of the results obtained have been encouraging. There is controversy over how much difficulty the Sigma Test can actually measure correctly. Some people think the actual ceiling is no more than 180, others think it goes up to 200 or a little more. This is difficult to determine until the number of people evaluated is large enough or until some great genius internationally recognized as such (Fields Medal, Abel Prize, Nobel Prize in Physics) who is evaluated by the Sigma Test.Regardless of the difficulty ceiling, Sigma Test brings other relevant innovations. Some of them have already been experimentally corroborated. Among these innovations, the most important is the new standardization method, first introduced in 2000 and first applied in 2003.

The new normalization method used in Sigma Test is distinguished from all others by generating scores whose antilogs are on a scale of proportion. Furthermore, this method makes it possible to correctly calculate the corresponding percentages, avoiding the inflated results that are produced by traditional methods. This topic is covered in more detail in other articles.

Another differentiator is the variety of cognitive processes required to solve the questions. This is extremely important for measuring intellectual capacity in a wide range of settings. The ability to play chess, for example, measures a very specialized and very narrow latent trait, which cannot be interpreted as representative of general intelligence. Chess skill is positively correlated with intelligence, but as the rating moves away from the average, this score is determined more and more by chess-specific skill and less and less by general intelligence. The same happens if a test uses exclusively series of figures, or if it exclusively uses a series of numbers. The measured variable cannot be interpreted as representative of general intelligence. This statement runs counter to some “psychometric mantras” repeated for decades – in particular about homogeneity (the higher, the better) and about g saturation, so it requires a little more detailed analysis:

Series of figures have the virtue of minimizing the requirement for knowledge, preventing cultural and age factors from interfering with the result. This is a good thing. On the other hand, they limit the ceiling of difficulty and complexity, but the main problem is excessive homogeneity.

There are many different ways to measure homogeneity. One of the best and most common is through Cronbach’s α.

In order to understand how Cronbach’s α works, first, it is worth explaining how the Kuder-Richardson works: the idea is simple. The test is divided into two equivalent halves and the score that each person obtained in each half is verified. This division can be between odd and even questions. It can be by lottery, or by any other reasonable criterion. If the halves are equal, each person is expected to score approximately the same score on each half. The idea of Cronbach’s α is similar, but all covariances between all items are considered, making this measure independent of the criterion adopted to separate the two halves. This is almost equivalent to comparing all possible combinations of two halves.

It is positive and desirable that a good test has a high Cronbach’s α (above 0.7), because it indicates that the test items are contributing to measure the same variable. This everyone knows and repeats religiously. On the other hand, it is bad if Cronbach’s α is excessively high (above 0.9), because it indicates that the test items are not covering a sufficiently wide range of the characteristics that should be measured, that is, the items are excessively redundant and specialized. This fact is apparently neither known nor well understood, so it requires a little more detailed explanation. For this, I will use a didactic example:

A test consisting exclusively of 60 numerical series tends to present Cronbach’s α greater than a test that includes 20 numerical series, 20 series of figures and 20 analogies. If the difficulty distributions are the same on both tests, then the one with 60 numerical series is likely to have a higher Cronbach’s α, in which case having a higher Cronbach’s α may be worse. In other words, a Cronbach’s α of 0.85 may be better than 0.92.

An analogous effect can also produce illusions about g saturation, making a test appear to be more g-saturated than it actually is, simply because it is excessively homogeneous. In a test that is too homogeneous, the first factor extracted may be sufficient to explain more than 80% or 85% of the variability, not because the test is in fact more saturated with the g factor, but because within the limits of what is being evaluated by this test. Test, a leading factor common to all items accounts for 80% to 85% of the variance or even more.

In this context, pseudo saturation of g is a bad symptom, unless the ultimate goal is to measure the ability to solve series of numbers and figures. But this is usually not what you want to measure. The purpose of a good intelligence test is to gather an appropriate list of questions to assess your ability to solve real problems. The objective is not the score on the test itself, but to ensure that this score is able to reflect the ability to solve different problems in real life. In this, STE stands out, as it includes several problems with a structure very similar to real problems.

The ability to solve series of pictures is also useful, because this same ability also contributes to solving other problems in other situations. However, the direct measurement of the type of skill you want to know is preferable to measuring a correlated attribute. To clarify this problem, let’s analyze two more well-known variables: weight and height.

People’s weight and height are moderately correlated variables. This means that by knowing a person’s weight, one can estimate that person’s height. However, if it is possible to directly measure one’s height, this is better than measuring weight and trying to estimate height based on weight. If it is not possible to measure height, and the only information available is weight, it is possible to use this information to try to roughly estimate height, but the error can be very large, because there are short people with a lot of fat mass and there are tall very thin people.

Therefore, if there is a group of variables more closely related to height, such as femur size, foot size, arm size, then measuring these variables should provide a more accurate estimate of height than trying to estimate height with based on weight. Femur size is not exactly proportional to height, but variation in femur size preserves the proportion to variation in height much better than variation in weight to variation in height. The same applies to foot size and arm size. When you consider femur size, foot size, and arm size together, you can make a much more reliable estimate for height than if you tried to estimate height on the basis of weight.

So using a series of figures test to estimate intelligence is like using weight to estimate height, that is, it works, but the errors and distortions are large. Furthermore, as you get closer to the higher levels of weight, the error also increases and the same happens when you want to measure correctly at the highest levels of height, because the higher levels of height rarely correspond to the highest levels of weight. The tallest people in the world are not the same as the heaviest people in the world. Usually, the heaviest ones are normal height or just a little above normal.

But if the measurement were based on the size of the femur, arm, and foot, estimating height based on each of these variables, then averaging the results, the estimate for height would be much closer to the correct value. Another detail to consider is that in addition to the correlation between femur size and height being much stronger than between weight and height, this correlation is preserved at the highest levels, so that the largest people in the world also have larger femurs, bigger arms and bigger feet. Therefore, the measurement of these body parts remains effective in estimating the correct height of people at all levels, from the average population to the tallest people in the world.

Likewise, the use of items with the properties of the Sigma Test questions, closely related to the cognitive processes that represent intelligence, covering a wide variety of cognitive characteristics and skill levels, provides a much more accurate and realistic estimate for intelligence.

There are also disadvantages to the Sigma Test, which produces less fair results if it is applied to rural groups or groups with a level of education far below the Middle School grade. But I don’t see much need to create tests aimed at this audience, because there are already good tests for that, including Logima Stricta and some of the excellent tests by Iakovos Koukas and YoungHoon Kim. So my focus is on trying to fill a gap that has existed since the early days of IQ tests, which is trying to correctly measure the intellectual level in the higher strata. The Binet tests were able to measure correctly up to about 135, then the Langdon and Hoeflin tests were able to correctly measure up to about 170. The Sigma Test Extended aims to realistically and accurately measure above 190 and perhaps above 200.

As already mentioned, Hoeflin tests pioneered the correct measurement of IQ at levels far above the limits of traditional IQ tests, but as there was no proper method for calculating the corresponding percentiles, norms were calculated using the methods available to standardization, resulting in skewed estimates, especially near the ceiling.

The “correct” ceiling for Mega Test, based on data that was available on the Miyaguchi website and using the same standardization method as the Sigma Test 2003 standard is about 186, very close to the nominal ceiling of 190+ (~ 193) which was adopted by Hoeflin. The ceiling calculated by Grady Towers was 202. Bob Seitz also made an attempt to establish a new norm that would fit the correct levels of rarity, and he came up with around 170, very close to the rarity norm I found in 2003 for the ceiling of the MegaTest (168.5). This divergence between the results obtained by Towers and by Seitz already signaled a disparity between the true rarities and the rarities obtained based on the hypothesis that the scores were normally distributed. By the late 1990s, the problem was well established: the actual rarity did not agree with the IQ scores measured in the tests. But the solution to this was not yet clear.

The nominal IQ score does not present major problems. The Mega Test ceiling presents an error of 7 points, which is tolerable and for lower scores the error is smaller and smaller. However, the corresponding percentile is very different from the correct one. The theoretical level of rarity for IQ=193, assuming the distribution of scores were perfectly adherent to a Gaussian, would be one in 325,000,000, but the correct level of rarity, given the true shape of the distribution of scores, is about one in 435,000. If you consider the correct ceiling to be 186 instead of 193, then the rarity level is one in 130,000. So the true level of rarity differs from the level indicated in the standard by a factor greater than 2000. A huge mistake. The data on Miyaguchi’s website is incomplete, so the 186 IQ value indicated as “correct” for the ceiling may be slightly different, perhaps close to 190. However, the percentile distortions are too large to be explained by some bias present in the data available on the Miyaguchi website. This is a serious methodological error that has been systematically repeated for decades.

Hoeflin’s and Landgon’s tests differ in some important points. Langdon’s tests, as well as some tests by Cooijmans, Robert Lato and others, followed a similar line to Raven’s tests (figure series), while Hoeflin’s tests followed a more similar line to that of Binet and Wechsler (diversified).

At this point, it is worth recapping how the first attempts to measure intelligence were, in fact. I won’t be redundant with the Historical Summary article on Intelligence Tests; Anyone interested can access it for more details. Here I will give a much briefer summary focused on the topics we are covering.

The Binet test represents an important advance in the evolution of cognitive tests. After the attempts by Francis Galton (1884) and James Cattell (1890) to measure intelligence proved unsuccessful, Alfred Binet (1904) tried to approach the problem from a different perspective. Galton and Cattell believed that it would be possible to measure the elementary components of intelligence, while Binet decided to measure the combined result of these components in synergistic action, obtaining much more promising results, making it possible to identify mild deficiencies and some aptitudes. This suggests that the combined use of questions that require different types of thinking working together in solving complex problems may work better than questions that try to measure each type of thinking separately. The STE follows a similar line, betting on the measure of a combined set of skills to solve complex problems, with the differential of including questions that reach levels much higher of difficulty than the Stanford-Binet ceiling (140), reaching and surpassing 190 and even 200.

While Binet test is one of the best for correctly measuring IQs between 70 and 130, it fails badly by continuing to produce scores far above what it is actually capable of measuring. The same problem is present in the tests by Wechsler, Cattell Culture Fair, and others. The extrapolated Stanford-Binet nominal ceiling reached 225, but the actual ceiling never went above 140. I’m not saying the IQ 140 is low; to say so would be a gross error. What I am saying is that a test with a ceiling of 140 would be like a clinical ruler to measure height with a maximum limit of 1.87 m. The 1.87 m threshold is not low, but it is also not enough to serve a considerable fraction of the population.

In fact, the problem with the Stanford-Binet standard is worse than that. It is as if it were a ruler with a nominal ceiling of 2.15 m, but that started to get crooked and with the 1 cm intervals getting smaller and smaller for heights above 1.80 m. On this ruler, the size of 1 cm in the range of 1.50 m to 1.80 m is approximately uniform, but above 1.80 m, each 1 cm interval becomes increasingly narrow. When it gets close to 2.15 m, every 1 cm is so short that it is less than half a 1 cm in the region between 1.70 m and 1.80 m. With a ruler skewed at this level, measurements are only reasonably reliable up to 1.80 m or, with a little optimism, up to 1.85 m.

The below image shows an example of a distorted (uneven interval) scale where up to a certain point (the first 10) the intervals are uniform, but then they get increasingly narrower:

Using a ruler that had each unit spaced this way would obviously produce big errors. This is basically what happens with almost all IQ tests, including the Sigma Test before 2003, because although this method for standardization had already been devised and published in 2000, first Sigma Test standard had to be determined by comparison with other tests already standardized by existing methods and the number of tests in Sigma Test in 2000 was still not enough for adequate standardization using the new method. Therefore, the first standard applying this method was in 2003.

Therefore, all traditional IQ tests and all high range IQ tests had this distortion up to 2003 and this distortion causes several problems.

If there were such an error in a ruler or a tape measure, where one part of the ruler was correct and another was distorted, it would be easy to correct it by using the “healthy” part to compare side by side with the anomalous part, and then repair the error. But on an IQ scale this is much more difficult and complex to correct. On a crooked ruler with a distorted scale, the problem is noticed visually, but the distortions in the scale of an IQ test are invisible and can only be detected with an adequate statistical treatment. In addition to the detection not being trivial, the correction is even more difficult because it is necessary to establish a reference scale that is invariant. Binet tried to do this using ages and it was an interesting initial idea, but it was quickly found that it didn’t produce an interval scale. To produce a ratio scale is even more difficult.

The solution adopted in the 2003 Sigma Test standard manages to generate a proportion scale taking advantage of Bill McGaugh’s idea of converting Chess rating into IQ. However, FIDE rating, USCF rating and especially online ratings are highly distorted, in addition to the inflationary effect. Therefore, before it was necessary to establish an appropriate rating scale from which a potential ratio scale would be established and then this could be applied to the IQ, it is clear that Bill McGaugh’s formula could not be used in its original form either, because it was calculated based on the FIDE rating, but it was an important inspiration.

The rating calculation method is described in this book https://www.saturnov.org/livro/rating and the distribution of scores using this method is this:

By way of comparison, the distribution of the FIDE ratings is as follows:

And the distribution of USCF ratings is this:

Converting FIDE ratings with this distribution into IQ scores or converting USCF ratings into IQ, it would require some acrobatics, but even then there would be major distortions. That’s why it was first necessary to recalculate the ratings. In this process, I’ve already taken the opportunity to improve the traditional method, in addition to introducing a new one based on the quality of the bids. Furthermore, the two distributions, the IQ and the rating were fitted to suitable curves, rather than using the forced assumption of a Gaussian distribution. Altogether, 91 continuous and 17 discrete distributions were tested to verify which one is the most appropriate to represent this data set. In the preliminary selection, Kolmogorov-Smirnov was used to assess the goodness of fit. In a later step, Anderson-Darling and a chi-square comparison were used with a fitting model of a neural network. In cases where the discrete distribution made the comparison impossible because it contained the n-factorial function, this was replaced by Gamma (n+1). The following graph shows a summary of all tested curves:

The distributions tried were these:

After determining the most suitable curves to represent the distribution of the IQs and the most suitable for the rating distribution, some further adjustments were made to correct for the self-selection that varies with the rating band and with the IQ band and does not vary in the same proportion. More details on the procedures are described in volumes I and II of the book “CHESS – 2022 Best Players in History, Two New Rating Systems“.

By these means, it was possible to slightly refine the values of some parameters used in the standardization of the Sigma Test, highlighting some of the conceptual and quantitative advantages that were already present in the 2003 standard.

The end result is that IQ measured by ST or STE generates scores on practically the same scale as other high range IQ tests, i.e. a person with a score of 180 on the Mega Test should score around 180 on the STE, while two other people with a score of 150 and 120 on Mega Test should also get around 150 and 120 on STE respectively. For scores above 170 and especially above 180, ST generates slightly lower (and more correct, less inflated) scores than other tests. For scores below 170, there is practically no difference.

The ST and STE percentiles are realistic, so they are much lower than those generated by the other tests. Therefore, if your goal is a certificate with too many nines to hang on the wall, unfortunately, Sigma Test won’t be able to help you. But if you are sincerely curious to know your real intellectual capacity, based on a correctly standardized scale and with an adequate level of difficulty, and if you want to know the true percentile in which you are in relation to the world population, among other information (*), STE is exactly what you are looking for.

(* A supplementary information that cannot be calculated based on other standards is the “proportion of potential”. If you are interested in knowing exactly what this means, please read this article: https://www.sigmasociety.net /scalesqi. In summary, the ratio of potential determines the number of people with IQ=100, working together, to achieve the same level of “intellectual output” as a person with IQ=x. This calculation requires that the scores are on a proportion scale so that the values are not distorted).

Another detail that I would like to comment on is the difference between intrinsically difficult questions and very difficult questions.

Questions that are just laborious, but not really difficult, measure perseverance, persistence, patience and other attributes rather than actually measuring intelligence. When testing with no time limit is applied, it is necessary to take some additional care, to prevent a person from having a higher score just by dedicating larger time. For each problem, there is a curve that determines the probability of success as a function of the time devoted to it and this curve reaches an asymptotic limit that means that after a certain limit, dedicating more time does not contribute to increasing the probability of success in a proportion that justify the greater amount of time invested. When this curve is similar to a straight line, it indicates that the problem is inappropriate because it predominantly depends on mechanical effort and work, but if the curve is similar to a logistic one, it indicates that the problem predominantly depends on intellectual capacity. That’s because in the most difficult problems, if the person solves 5% of the problem in 5 minutes, he will solve approximately 10% in 10 minutes, 50% in 50 minutes, and so on. These are problems characterized by repetitive tasks, where repeating 10 times implies going twice as far as repeating 5 times. But in cases of predominantly intellectual problems, it is different. In the first 10% to 20% of the time, the person makes almost no progress, just trying to understand and outline a solution strategy. Then the resolution begins and at this stage, advances occur quickly with 50% to 70% of the central region of the logistic curve. As you progress in the resolution, getting closer to the definitive answer, you realize that there are small details that can still improve the answer. But these details require more and more time and are smaller and smaller and contribute less and less to the final result. The curve below represents this situation:

It reach a point where the person concludes that it doesn’t make sense to spend more time to keep improving the response, because they would need to dedicate a lot of time to producing small increments. On some of the great problems of science, this takes centuries. Newton’s solution, for example, was later improved by Einstein. In the future, it will be improved again. The atomic model has also experienced several stages of evolution and this happens in different situations in which one is dealing with a difficult and predominantly intellectual problem. If it is a laborious problem, where the resolution is more repetitive and mechanical, the graph that determines the percentage resolved as a function of time is more similar to the one below, where the time devoted to the resolution grows almost linearly with the percentage resolved.

The type of problems desirable for a good intelligence test is the one that presents the behavior of graph 1. And all the items in the STE are designed with this objective in mind.

Graph 1 is a simplification, because many times there can be several stagnations in the resolution process. The person advances quickly, until he encounters some difficulty that impedes the advance until a strategy is developed to solve it. Then it goes back to solving the problem, then it hits another obstacle, etc. Several of the more difficult problems in STE have this characteristic, where the person needs to have more than one insight during the solving process in order to be able to keep moving forward.

Since the time that Langdon created the first high range IQ test until the mid-1990s, there were less than half a dozen such tests. But from the 1990s onwards, several others were created and currently there are hundreds. I don’t know all the high range tests that currently exist, so I can’t generalize, but I can say that many of these tests are made up of difficult questions, but they are not really difficult. This is common in tests with a series of numbers or figures, where if a person spends enough time, testing many different alternatives in an organized way. At some point, he will discover the underlying pattern. Of course, the use of some heuristics can speed up this process, but they are very basic heuristics. After a person trains to solve many tests of this type, he ends up becoming “specialized”. There are also issues depending on the person having a vast vocabulary to solve an analogy, without there being any intrinsic difficulty in the analogy itself. The same applies to association problems. Certainly ST and STE are not immune and have their own flaws and limitations, but, as far as possible, we have tried to avoid some of the problems listed here.

Compared to the best traditional IQ tests, such as Stanford-Binet and Wechsler, the high range IQ tests adequately solve the problem of measuring correctly at the highest levels of difficulty, reaching 170 or even 180 and in this respect the ST did not bring great contributions, except perhaps for pushing the ceiling up a little as far as you can measure correctly. But there are other aspects in which the ST made relevant contributions:

Generation of scores on a ratio scale
Correct determination of percentiles and rarity levels
Unprecedented determination of proportions of intellectual production potential
Adequacy of different cognitive processes to the skill level measured
Other possible advantages: https://www.sigmasociety.net/escalasqi

Mothers and fathers often find their kids the most beautiful in the world, so it’s possible that my opinion of ST and STE is skewed. So it’s best to rely on the opinions of other people who have been tested with Sigma Test and have given their testimonials. A list of these opinions can be accessed here: https://www.sigmasociety.net/depoimentos. So, although, maybe, my opinion is biased, ST and STE were built thinking about solving some of the weaknesses (from my point of view) that are present in other tests. I believe that the ST and STE are the psychometric instruments that best meet my criteria for correctly measuring intellectual level at the highest levels. Some other deeply talented people would agree with this opinion, others might not. This space is open to receiving new positive and negative opinions about ST and STE.

For these reasons, in Sigma Society, as the cut-off is 132, within the range in which other tests also work well, there was no problem in accepting other tests as criteria for admission, because the distortion is not great for scores up to this level. In Sigma III, there were some doubts about whether to accept other tests. It was decided to initially keep only the ST with the possibility of accepting other tests later as well. As of Sigma IV, only the ST itself was accepted. For these same reasons, STE will be accepted as the standard exam for admission to Sigma VII and the Deliberative Council in Immortal Society. It will also be used as criteria for admission to Sigma VI, Sigma V, Unicorn, Platinum, Sigma IV, Immortal Society, Sigma III and Sigma Society.

Having made these clarifications, we hope that everyone who accepts this challenge will enjoy the pleasant intellectual adventure offered by the STE questions and obtain fair and accurate results.

Sigma Test Extended is a harder, larger and newer version of our Sigma Test. See below some opinions about the Sigma Test:

“I’m really enjoying the SIGMA test. I’ve already printed it out and started answering your questions. Allow me to congratulate you on your test. In fact, it’s incomparably better than the IQ tests I’ve taken.” Renato P. dos Santos, Ph.D. in Physics, Post-Doctoral in Artificial Intelligence, Universitaet Karlsruhe, Research Institute for Symbolic Computation, Researcher and Preceptor of Ph.D. students, member of British Blockchain Association, referee of International Journal of Physical Sciences, Journal of Virtual Worlds Research, Concurrency and Computation: Practice and Experience, Financial Innovation and Advanced Theory and Simulations, Honorary member of Immortal Society (IQ>164).

“I appreciate immensely the Sigma Teste because I believe that in many questions are needed both intelligence and imagination to solve them.” Petri Widsten, Ph.D. Summa Cum Laude in Chemestry, University of Helsinki, best Ph.D. Thesis of Finland 2002-2003, 1st place in several IQ Contests, include in “World IQ Challenge”, member of Sigma Society VI (IQ>196).

“The SIGMA test was one of the most interesting things I have done in the realm of puzzles because the later questions were so clever and had so many different levels of solution. I finished the test as a personal challenge, and it gave me great satisfaction. Some of the SIGMA test puzzles are REALLY beautiful. They are a work of art!” Peter David Bentley, D.Phil. and Post-Doctoral in Physiscs, University of Oxford, co-founder of Ludomind, Managing Director of INFICON Ltd., member of Sigma Society V (IQ>180).

“Thought tests and puzzles always have amused me, this is the first IQ-test I have bothered to send in for scoring. I found myself increasingly absorbed by the intellectual art behind the questions in this test. Together with achievement, I rank creativity on top of the scale, which you elegantly have combined with divergent / convergent thinking. Thank you for creating a great test. I now look forward to take the Sigma Test VI! Provided my scores are sufficient, I intend to apply for membership in the Sigma Society.” Ulf Westerlund, Ph.D. in Neuroscience, member of AANS (American Association of Neurological Surgeons) and EANS (European Association of Neurological Surgeons), member of Sigma Society IV (IQ>164).

“I also want to say to you that the Sigma Test is incredibly brilliant. It was by far the best test I have ever taken and enjoyed it very much.” Dylan Taylor, MBA at University of Chicago, Chairman & CEO of Voyager Space, Young Global Leader in 2011 Prize (World Economic Forum), Global Leadership and Public Policy for the 21st at Harvard Kennedy School, highest score on the English version of the Giant Test, Honorary Member of Immortal Society (IQ>164).

“Thank you for a fascinating, thrilling and a very challenging test! I will recommended it to friends and colleagues who might be interested in this kind of challenge. My next mission will be Sigma Test VI.” Kristian Heide, Ph.D. in Astrophysics, world record in Think Fast game, member of Sigma Society IV (IQ>164).

“I would like to take the Sigma Test. (Which I believe has the best end excellent questions.)” Emrehan Halici, M.Sc. in Electrical Engineering, President of Turkish Intelligence Foundation (1995-…), Vice President of FIDE – Fédération Internationale Des Échecs (1998-2002), Member of The Turkish Parliament (1999-2002).

More comments on the Sigma Test here: https://www.sigmasociety.net/depoimentos

INSTRUCTIONS:

Try to answer all the questions, including those you are not sure about.

There is no time limit, there are no restrictions on the use of auxiliary tools. Dictionaries and encyclopedias can be consulted at will.

Along with your answers, please also submit the scores you obtained on other tests (clinical IQ tests, online tests, high range tests, SAT, GRE, ACT, etc.), the date you were examined with each test (can be approximate), the score obtained (informing standard deviation) and the name of the test. We also ask that you inform the other societies in which you participate or have participated and other information that you consider important.

In parentheses is the approximate IQ corresponding to the difficulty of the questions at that level. This helps to avoid oversights by underestimating the difficulty of some question, as well as avoiding wasting time looking in simple and easy questions for complications that don’t exist.

A book will soon be published with the 1,000 people with the highest IQs in history and the 100 people with the highest IQs today. Many other details about IQ tests, inflated scores, etc will be discussed in this book.

Sigma Test Extended – Questions

Level I (100) Average

In 1976 Marcelo was 11 years old. Assuming he is still alive, how old will be in 1999?
If 13 bullets cost $ 3.90, how much do 31 bullets cost?
A large box measures 60 cm wide, 50 cm long and 30 cm deep. What is the maximum number of boxes measuring 10 cm wide, 10 cm long and 10 cm deep that fit inside the big box?
If 12 people do a job in 12 days, how many people are need to do the same job in 1 day?
A collection consists of 12 volumes; each volume has 300 pages; each page has 50 lines and each line has 100 letters. What is the total number of letters in the collection?

Level II (110) Above average

A company has enough stock to supply its clientele of 2,500 people for 12 months. How long would this stock last if the clientele grew to 6,000 people?
If one horse can pull 600 kg, how many horses are needed to pull 6,150 kg?
The sum of ages of Fernanda and Andreia is 18 years. What are their individual ages, given that Andreia is twice as old as Fernanda?
We have 7 cubes with edge = 1 cm each. They are glued together in such a way that the total external surface after gluing is as small as possible. Calculate the area of this surface. The image below shows an example of cube organization in which the criterion of minimizing surfaces is not satisfied. (EXT 2022)

Level III (120) Superior Intelligence

Ricardo weighs 30% more than José. If Ricardo were to lose 10% and José gains 20% of weight, which one of them would weigh more after that. Explain.
A planetary system has, in addition to the main star, 9 planets. Each planet has 7 primary satellites. One out of every 21 primary satellites has 3 co-orbital satellites. How many celestial bodies are there all together?
On a staircase with 1,000 steps there was 1 gram of gold on the 1st step, 2 grams on the 2nd, 3 grams on the 3rd, 4 grams on the 4th, 5 grams on the 5th and so on, so that there was 1 kg of gold on the last step. Given that 1 gram of gold is worth 11 dollars, calculate the total value of the gold on the staircase (in dollars).
Inside a room is a bookcase, a gold cube, and a platinum cylinder. The height of the cylinder is equal to its diameter. The 3 objects are on the ground, and that is flat within the limits we can measure. The top plane of the shelf is parallel to the ground plane. If the cube is on top of the shelf and the cylinder is on the floor, the distance between the top of the cube and the top of the cylinder will be 204 cm. If the cylinder is on top of the shelf and the cube is on the floor, the distance between the top of the cube and the top of the cylinder will be 156 cm. How tall is the shelf? (EXT 2022)

Level IV (132) Gifted, Talented, High Abilities

In a room 99% of the people are men. How many men would have to leave the room in order for this percentage to decrease to 98%? It is known that the number of women in the room is 3.
On a chessboard with 64 squares (8 x 8), two kings can occupy 3,612 different positions. How many different positions can two kings occupy on a chessboard with 117 squares (13 x 9). Two kings may not be on the same square at the same time or occupy adjacent squares.
Marcelo had apples, half of which he gave to his brother. The latter gave 75% of the apples that he had gotten to be equally shared between his three cousins: Anderson, Joao and Mané. Anderson bought 7 apples more and gave half of all his apples to his brother Mané. Mané’s apples then totaled 17. How many apples did Joao get?
Maria went to a farm to buy eggs. Returning home, she gave half of them to her sister who, in turn, gave a third of those she had gotten to her boyfriend. The latter, after eating one third of the eggs that he had gotten, gave the rest to his cousin. Given that each egg weighs 70 grams, that Maria cannot carry more than 2.5 kg, and that the eggs were raw, calculate how many eggs the cousin of Maria’s sister’s boyfriend received.
The mayor Joao and an important bachelor businessman, called José, held a large barbecue. Aside from the businessman José, the mayor Joao and his wife, the number of people present equaled the number of 100 dollar notes that the mayor spent multiplied by the the number of 100 dollar notes that the businessman spent. Given that, on average, every person consumed the equivalent of US$6.40 and that the mayor invested US$ 1,700, calculate how much the businessman José invested. (Note: the businessman José, the mayor Joao and his wife took part in the consumption)

Level V (144)

A Formula-1 race car is racing around a circular track, completing the first lap in 3 minutes with an average speed of 144 km/h. In what time must a second lap be driven in order for the average speed of the two laps to increase to 300 km/h?
When Antonio looked at his watch, he noticed that the hour hand was lying exactly over the minute hand. What time will it take for this to happen again? (both hands move at constant rates)
A train with 2 cars is traveling at a speed of 80 km/h from town X to town Y, located 800 km from each other. At the same moment that the train departed, a passenger started to walk back and forth from one end of car B to the other at a speed of 100 cm/s. Arriving in town Y, the passenger had already gone and returned 720 times. The length of car A is that of car B plus one fourth of the length of the locomotive, and the length of the locomotive equals the length of car A plus one fifth of the length of car B. What is the total length of the train?
What percentage of the Moon’s surface is illuminated by the Sun at specific moment? Justify. (Moon test)
The image below is a photo montage of the Moon over the Atlantic Ocean. Assuming it wasn’t a montage, what country was the person who took the photo in? Justify your answer. (Moon test)

Level VI (156)

Several faucets were used to fill up six tanks. For one hour, all the faucets discharged water in a reservoir, which distributed it between four of these tanks: A, B, C and D. After that, for one hour, the faucets discharged water in a double funnel which directed half of the water to tanks E and F and the other half to the reservoir which, in turn, continued to distribute its water between tanks A, B, C and D. With this, tanks A, B, C and D were full. To fill tanks E and F up, it was necessary to use one faucet, which, for two hours, distributed its water between tanks E and F. After this all the six tanks were full. What was the number of faucets initially used? (Note: all the faucets had the same water flow rate and all the tanks had the same volume).
Several rectangles are drawn on a plane surface in such a way that their intersecting lines form 18,769 areas not further subdivided. What is the minimum number of rectangles that must be drawn to form the described pattern?
Several straight line segments are drawn on a plane surface in such a way that their intersecting lines form 1,597 areas that are not further subdivided. What is the minimum number of line segments that must be drawn to form the described pattern?
On a plane surface 1 + 10^1,234,567,890 triangles are drawn. What is the maximum number of areas, not further subdivided, that can be formed as these triangles intersect each other? (Contributed by Rodrigo de Almeida Rodrigues)
According to Fermat’s Last Theorem, a^n + b^n = c^n has no solutions for n > 2 (a, b, c and n must be positive integers). In 1992, I proved this in a simple, yet incorrect manner. This was my reasoning: Fermat’s Theorem is a generalization of Pythagoras’ Theorem, which asserts that the sum of areas of the squares drawn on the legs (short sides) of a right triangle equals the area of a square drawn on the hypotenuse of the same right triangle (a^2 + b^2 = c^2). If we try to generalize that theorem, going from 2 to 3 dimensions (a^3 + b^3 = c^3), we have a triangular prism formed by displacement of a right triangle along an axis perpendicular to its face, as illustrated by the figure below. We can construct a cube on one of the three quadrangular faces of that prism. Two of those faces correspond to the legs of the right triangle (ADFB, BFEC) while the larger face corresponds to the hypotenuse (ADEC). It is possible to construct a cube on one of the faces, implying that the 4 sides of that face have the same length. This affects the whole prism, causing the cube constructed on the other face to have the same size than that constructed on the first, for if AB=BF and BF=BC, then AB=BC. In that way, no cube can be constructed on the third face, for if AC represents the hypotenuse, then AC cannot be equal to to AB. Therefore, a^n + b^n = c^n has no solution for n=3. Following the same line of reasoning, we can show that it has no solution for any number of dimensions larger than 2. What is the error in this proof?

João was kidnapped by aliens and taken to a distant planet. He gets two challenges. If he solves one of them, he will gain his freedom and be able to return to Earth. If he solves both, he will also win 100 tons of the mineral he prefers, gold or platinum, which will be delivered to his home on his planet. Challenge 1: on this planet where he is, an alien climbed on top of 3 mountains A, B, C, located respectively at latitudes 27º, 27.5º, 27º. From point A, points B and C appear 68.174 degrees apart. From point B, points A and C appear 54.821 degrees apart. From point C, points A and B appear to be 57.086º apart. The distance between points A and B is 100 km. What is the approximate diameter of this planet? (EXT 2022)
Challenge 2: This planet has part of its surface covered by oceans and part by rocks/land. João is taken to an island on which there is a volcano, the top of which is the highest part of the island. When he returns to the mainland, João realizes that, from the beach, it is still possible to see the top of the volcano, almost disappearing into the horizon. Knowing that the height of this volcano is 3500 m, what is the distance from this beach to the top of this volcano? (EXT 2022)

Level VII (168)

A certain gear system consists of 5 concentric, superposed discs: A, B, C, D and E, which are mounted on a solid platform, taken as a stationary reference. The discs have different sizes and spin at different speeds. All the discs spin at constant rates, some clockwise, some anticlockwise. Each disc has a red dot on its surface, and initially all these red dots are not lined up. At a given moment, all the discs start to spin simultaneously, each at its own speed, without any contact between them. It takes 7 minutes for disc A, 13 minutes for disc B, 17 minutes for disc C, 19 minutes for disc D and 23 minutes for disc E to complete a full 360-degree spin. After a certain time, all the red dots were aligned, disc A being in the same position that it was 2 minutes after the discs started to spin, disc B being in the same position that it was 3 minutes after the discs started to spin, disc C being in the same position that it was 4 minutes after the discs started to spin, disc D being in the same position that it was 7 minutes after the discs started to spin, and disc E being the same position that it was 9 minutes after the discs started to spin. How much time elapsed from the moment the discs started to spin until the discs reached that configuration for the first time?
Pedrinho entered Dona Maria’s Stationer’s Shop and asked her to sell him a geometric ruler for drawing a spiral with a small concentric circle. Dona Maria, a Sigma Society member, told the boy that there were no rulers for drawing spirals. But after thinking the problem over, she found a way to make a drawing like that, and described the method to the boy. She sold the boy the material needed right away, which he paid with a US$ 10.00 note, receiving some change. He went home and made the drawing without any problems. Describe a method to perform Pedrinho’s task having the same US$ 10.00 at your disposal for buying the material needed. The drawing must show a satisfactory agreement with the described pattern (a spiral with a small concentric circle), without large irregularities in the spiral. (Modified in 31 Aug 2001 at the suggestion of our friends Petri Widsten and Nikos Lygeros, as the earlier question with the 9 cubes was similar to one of the questions of the Eureka Test).
A man takes a deep breath, filling his lungs completely with air. Then he holds his breath and a tape measure is used to measure his chest circumference, which turns out to be 106 cm. After that, the man exhales so that all the air is expelled from his lungs. His chest circumference is measured again, and is now 84 cm. Having $10 at your disposal for buying material, find out the volume of air that his lungs are able to hold.
The speed of a person’s reflexes can be determined based on the time elapsed between a stimulus and the response of that stimulus. For example: A lamp remains unlit while we observe it. On receiving the stimulus “the lamp was lit”, the reaction is to be “close the eyes”. The shorter the time between “the lamp was lit” and “close the eyes”, the faster the reflexes. Describe a method to determine the speed of a person’s reflexes, without using a chronometer or any other equipment allowing the measurement of time intervals shorter than 1 second. It is possible to devise a rough method on a US$ 1 budget for equipment, and a sophisticated method with good precision having US$ 1,000 at one’s disposal. Describe a method for both budgets.
In 1993, in an essay about Science and Religion, I described a project regarding the possibility to build an “invisibility machine”. On describing the details, I realized that some problems were insolvable, not only because of technological limitations but also for physical reasons imposing theoretical and possibly insurmountable limits. The project starts from the central idea that in order to make an object invisible, it is necessary for an external observer looking in its direction to visually stop noticing its presence. This can be done in the following way: A sphere is constructed, and its whole external surface is covered with minute, high-resolution TV cameras and monitors. Millions or even billions of cameras and monitors are to cover the whole sphere in such a way that each monitor transmits the image captured by a camera located in the point diametrically opposite to that monitor. The result will be as shown in the figure below. The image of the object (blue square) is captured by a camera located in point A, which transmits the image to a monitor in point M. As a result, an observer in point O will see the blue square as if there were nothing in front of him. In that way, everything inside the sphere will be invisible to the external observer. But this scheme presents two problems. One of them can be solved in theory while the other one is insolvable. Indicate those two problems and explain why one of them can be solved but the other one cannot.

Many Mensa members have approved by the Raven’s test (Standard or Advanced). Assuming all Mensa members had approved by the Raven Standard Progressive Matrices and assuming the norm indicated below is correct and accurate, what percentage of Mensa members were approved without actually having an IQ above 132? Disregard cases of fraud (people who knew the answers before taking the test). The uncertainty in the score for each person examined is 2.6 points in raw score. (EXT 2022)

Following the previous statement, what percentage of people were not approved by the RSPM, but whose IQ is above 132? (EXT 2022)
In a 256-dimensional Euclidean orthonormal hyperspace, we have a 6-dimensional hypersphere and we want to split it into as many pieces as possible, but we can only make 12 cuts. Pieces cannot change position. Each slice is a 5-dimensional Euclidean orthogonal hyperspace (hyperplane). How many pieces can we get this way? (Sigma Test VI 2003)

Level VIII (184)

The porous and gray “lead” inside a pencil consists of a mixture of graphite and clay. The ratio of graphite to clay is not known. On writing on a sheet of paper, a fine layer of “lead” remains on the surface of the sheet. Describe a method for calculating the mass of “lead” in the dot of the letter “i”. You may use only US$10 to buy the material needed for the experiment.
We have a cylinder with a radius of 50 cm and a tape measure 0.01 cm thick. The height of the cylinder equals the width of the tape measure. The thickness of the tape measure is invariable and one of its wider sides is inextensible. What is the minimum length of tape necessary to wind it around the cylinder 9 times, all rounds overlapping, as in a roll of scotch tape. The top and base of the cylinder may not be covered with tape. The solution must be given with 14 significant digits and it is not allowed to cut the tape or cut or deform de cylinder.
A sophisticated aircraft is hovering like a hummingbird over a terrain located on the equatorial line of a planet, at an altitude of 1,000 m. The planet is completely spherical and homogeneous, and has a small satellite on a circular orbit on a plane parallel to its equator. At 15:58:30h a man parachutes down from the aircraft, descending perpendicularly to the ground. At the moment that he jumps off the aircraft, he notices a satellite starting to rise on the eastern horizon. He lands and, without leaving the landing site, continues to observe the satellite, which at 17:40:00 h reaches the zenith. He remains in the same place, observing…and at 19:20:00h sees the satellite disappear on the western horizon. Still in the same place, at 22:40:00h, he sees the satellite rising again in the east. What is the approximate diameter of that planet? Explain how you arrived at your answer and the usefulness of all the pieces of information given. Explain also why the result cannot be exact. (If you have doubts as to the meaning of zenith, horizon, equator, orbit etc., you may consult dictionaries or encyclopedias).
We have a regular, rigid and massy tetrahedron (T1) with edge 1, and we want to make a cut through which another rigid, massy tetrahedron (T2) can pass, completely crossing this hole and coming out completely on the other side. What is the maximum edge that the T2 tetrahedron can have? The answer must be presented with 50 digits. (EXT 2022)
We have a rigid, massy cube with edge 1, and we want to make a cut through which a regular, rigid and massy tetrahedron can pass, completely crossing this hole and coming out completely on the other side. What is the maximum edge that this tetrahedron can have? The answer must be presented with 50 digits. (EXT 2022)

Level IX (202)

Describe a practical and fast method that can be used with good precision to determine the number of words in a person’s vocabulary.
If Jupiter were hollow and the top of its clouds were a rigid membrane 1 mm thick, how many planets like Earth would fit entirely inside it? (Moon test)
Estimate or calculate realistic percentiles for the raw scores of the following tests: Mega Test, Titan Test. Feel free to justify with formulas and arguments, if you want, trying to be as concise and objective as possible. (EXT 2022)
Estimate or calculate realistic percentiles for the raw scores of 2 high range IQ tests of your choice. Feel free to justify with formulas and arguments, if you want, trying to be as concise and objective as possible. (EXT 2022)
Estimate or calculate realistic percentiles for the cut-offs for the following high-IQ societies: 1. Mensa
2.    Intertel
3.    Colloquy
4.    Cerebrals
5.    ISPE
6.    Prometheus
7.    Epimetheus
8.    HellIQ
9.    Mega Society
10.    Omega Society
11.    Pi Society
12.    Pars Society
13.    OlympIQ Society
14.    Sigma V
15.    Giga Society
16.    Sigma VI
17.    Choose another 2 societies with theoretical percentile 1-10^-9 or higher. (EXT 2022)
There was a brilliant anthropologist, a member of Sigma V, named John. During an expedition to Africa, he was imprisoned by a tribe of cannibals and sentenced to serve as a meal. But the “legislation” of this tribe offered prisoners an opportunity to be released if they were able to overcome a challenge. In João’s case, the challenge consisted of the following: two eggs would be presented to him, one raw and the other boiled. Each egg would remain inside a box. The walls of these boxes are rigid and opaque. The boxes are shaped like cobblestones. One of the boxes has a window on one of its sides, and this window is covered with a wire mesh, through which it is possible to see the egg that is inside it. The challenge is to identify which is the raw egg within 2 minutes. Eggs cannot be broken, they cannot be taken out of the boxes, the boxes cannot be opened and it is not allowed to insert anything inside the boxes. João is informed that this challenge will be presented to him within 90 days. Until that time expires, he can count on the support of the villagers to investigate a way to solve the problem. In addition, João can have all the “sophisticated” instruments and everything else available in the village and surroundings. When the date to face the challenge arrived, at sunrise, João had his eyes blindfolded and his hands tied. A few minutes later, a village elder boiled an egg, dried it, placed it in a box and closed it. He took a raw egg and put it in another box, then closed it. The two boxes were placed on a table, where they remained until nightfall. Then John was untied and the blindfolds were removed from his eyes, he was provided with the requisite equipment and was placed in front of the table where the boxes with the eggs were. He examined them carefully and was able to identify where the raw egg was. The challenge was repeated for 20 consecutive days, always with different eggs, and in the 20 times he managed to make the correct identification. In view of this, the cannibals, admired, recognized the value of the remarkable anthropologist. They decided to release him and even presented him with many jewels. Describe a procedure that John may have used to be able to identify which box had the raw egg.
The two photos below were taken in August 2020, by Hindemburg Melao Jr. at coordinates -22.947594, -45.476772 and by Alisson Correa Chervinski at coordinates -29.755334, -57.076461. What was the distance from the center of the Earth to the center of the Moon at that moment? Justify your answer in detail. (visit the Moon Test page to download higher resolution images) (Moon test)

Level X – EXTRA (221) (at least 80% of the previous questions must be correct for your answers at level X to be analyzed)

An Arab man and an Israeli woman are abducted by extraterrestrials. The E.T.s promise to return them to Earth unharmed, provided that they succeed in the following task: three rooms are designated A, B and C. Each room is square and measures approximately 25 m2. The rooms are connected in such a way that each room has two doors, and each door provides access to one of the other two rooms. The three rooms are acustically isolated and have no furniture or windows. The walls, doors, ceiling and floor of the rooms are solid and opaque, and contain no cracks, holes, hidden passages or the like. The man is placed in room A and the woman in room B. They both receive the following instructions:

1. They both have 1 hour to traverse the three rooms and return to the room where they started, always walking in the direction A – B – C – A.
2.    The both have to remain seated, on the floor, in their respective rooms, until a signal would be emitted, indicating that the time count had started. The signal was as follows: on each door there are two lamps (one on each side of the door), and the nearly simultaneous lighting of the all the lamps constitutes the signal. Each lamp is bright enough for a person to notice easily even when he is not paying attention to it.
3.    The moment that the woman touches the doorknob of a room, the man cannot be in that room any more.
4.    The moment that the man touches the doorknob of a room, the woman cannot be in that room any more.
5.    The woman has to get up from the floor after the man.
6.    The man and woman are not permitted to communicate between each other in any way, or obtain from others any information allowing them to figure out where the other one is. They may not beat the walls or the doors, or try to generate any kind of shock wave. On leaving a room and entering another one, it is required to close the corresponding door. Initially all the doors are closed. Two or more doors may not be open at the same time.
7.    None of them has a clock or any other instrument that can be used to measure time.
8.    1 minute before the 1 hour period is up the light signal will be given again, indicating that the time is running out.
9.    When the 1 hour period is up the man has to be sitting in the center of room A and the woman in the center of room B.
10.    The woman may only sit down after the man.
11.    The man is told that the woman is exceptionally intelligent.
12.    The woman is told that the man is exceptionally intelligent.

The man and the woman did not know each other and had never been in any contact with each other before. They did not communicate with each other during the whole process (to clarify the matter, it can be told that they both were mute and deaf). The experiment is carried out and they manage to perform the task. The experiment is repeated 10 times and each time they complete the task successfully, making it clear that the first time was not due to mere good luck. Afterwards they are returned to Earth where they convert to Zoroastrianism, get married and live happily everafter! Describe the method they used and the way of thinking of both of them.

Consider that the level of intellectual production of a company is measured by the sum of the productions of its employees and executives working together. Consider a company with 10,000 employees, which selects them through a reliable, accurate, efficient, and well-normed cognitive test with a cutoff of 2 standard deviations above the mean. The total intellectual output of the employees of this company is equivalent to that of a person with IQ = x working alone. Determine the x. Of course, the employees will produce in larger quantity than the person with IQ = x, but if you weigh the intellectual relevance of each work/creation, the fewer number of more relevant work/creation by the person with IQ = x will be equivalent to the largest number of less relevant work/creation out of 10,000 employees together. (EXT 2022)
As the previous statement, now consider that the total number of people ever born is about 100 billion and assume that the average IQ of the historical population is 100 with a standard deviation 16. If an alien had the same intellectual production capacity as all people who have lived together, what would be this alien’s IQ? (EXT 2022)
The photo below shows the Clavius crater. Christopher Clavius was a mathematician, astronomer and priest contemporary of Galileo. Clavius was distinguished for his works in Geometry and Algebra. When Galileo showed that the Moon had a rugged topography, rather than being a perfect sphere, as had been believed until then, Clavius argued that if the Moon’s surface were indeed irregular, as Galileo said, then the Moon’s edges must also show this characteristic, but even with telescopes (at the time) the edges of the Moon are very sleek. Faced with this empirical evidence, Clavius proposed that the Moon probably had a perfectly spherical transparent surface beneath which these apparent irregularities were. According science historian R.A.M., Galileo not found appropriate arguments to refute Clavius’ thesis, however there were sufficient resources at the time to show that Clavius was wrong. Point out problems with Clavius’ argument and show that Galileo’s thesis was most likely to be a better representation of sentient reality. (Moon test)
What is the total number of different positions that can be produced in all possible chess games. Justify your answer in detail. (EXT 2022)
What is the logarithm (base 10) of the total number of different positions that can be produced in all possible matches of MegaChess, 16×16 version of Chess on the Zillions of Games platform. Justify your answer in detail. (EXT 2022)

Sigma Test Extended ‘s first norm estimate

Current STE (and ST) highest score holder: Petri Widsten, 212. Petri is a Ph.D. Summa Cum Laude in Chemistry, his doctoral thesis was considered the best in Finland in the 2002-2003 biennium, he was also placed first in important international competitions of Logic, Intelligence and Puzzles, including the WORLD IQ CHALLENGE.

Standard based on the combined results of Sigma Test, Sigma Test VI and Moon Test.

Theoretical Percentile: percentile used in all high-IQ societies, based on the assumption that scores are normally distributed across the entire scale. As the actual distribution has dense trails on the right and becomes progressively denser for higher IQs, the percentiles are inflated and incorrect. But as it is the standard used, the table also includes this information for comparison purposes.

True Percentile: Realistic percentile calculated based on the method described in this article https://www.sigmasociety.net/escalasqi, scaling the scores in proportion and determining the true cumulative frequencies.

FEES:

Fee: US $ 100 until 5/31/2022 or up to the first 1,000 people screened
Fee: US $ 316 between 6/1/2022 and 7/31/2022 or up to the first 2,000 people screened
Fee: US $ 1,000 between 8/1/2022 and 9/30/2022 or up to the first 4,000 people screened
Fee: US $ 3,162 between 10/1/2022 and 11/30/2022 or up to the first 8,000 people screened
Fee: US $ 10,000 as of 12/1/2022 or from 16,000 people screened

CUMULATIVE DISCOUNTS:

Anyone who takes the Sigma Test Extended while fewer than 100 people are tested can apply for a new certificate after more than 100 people are tested, with the revised standard.

Persons who were already tested with Sigma Test before 2007 and did not receive a printed certificate: exempt from the fee

People who were already tested with the Sigma Test before 2007 and received a printed certificate: 30% discount on the fee

People who have already been tested with Sigma Test VI: 20% off fee

People who have already been screened with the Moon Test: 10% off fee

The above discounts are cumulative. For example: the person took the Sigma Test and the Sigma Test VI, so your rate will be 0.7 × 0.8 = 0.56 (44% discount).After took the Sigma Test Extended, the person receives a certificate from the Sigma Test Extended and a certificate based exclusively on the Sigma Test questions, since the ST is a subtest of STE. Although question 36 of the STE was not included, as there was no correct answer in this question, it does not interfere with the norm.

Footnotes

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ste; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Melão H. Sigma Test Extended[Online]. July 2022; 30(B). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ste.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6^th Edition, 2010): Hindemburg, M. (2022, July 22). Sigma Test Extended. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ste.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): HINDEMBURG, M. Sigma Test Extended. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.B, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ste>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16^th Edition): Hindemburg, Melão. 2022. Sigma Test Extended.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.B. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ste.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16^th Edition): Hindemburg, Melão “Sigma Test Extended.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.B (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ste.

Harvard: Hindemburg, M. 2022, ‘Sigma Test Extended’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.B. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ste>.

Harvard, Australian: Hindemburg, M. 2022, ‘Sigma Test Extended’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.B., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ste.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7^thEdition, 2009): Melão Hindemburg. “Sigma Test Extended.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A(2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ste>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Hindemburg M. Sigma Test Extended[Internet]. (2022, July 30(B). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ste.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Hindemburg Melao Jr. and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Hindemburg Melao Jr., and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-07-22

The Greenhorn Chronicles 13: Adelle Stewart on Horses, Hay, and Prime Equine (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,224

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Adelle Stewart founded Prime Equine in 2017. She has more than 25 years of horse experience. She has showed, competed, trained, and managed a stable. She discusses: earlier indications of interest in horses; the cohort; mentors or exemplars; the summer camps; a cowgirl; common wisdom; the elements of different seasons; colicky; rolling around and thrashing; other conditions; biomechanics; heal in irregular circumstances; the state of nature; a herd; acres of land; areas in Canada known as places for horses to live; facilities; Prime Equine; acreage for horses; horses on site; the capacity; hay; nutritional value of hay; specific types of hay or supplements; and the major deficiencies found in horses.

Keywords: Adelle Stewart, colic, equestrianism, hay, horses, Prime Equine.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 13: Adelle Stewart on Horses, Hay, and Prime Equine (1)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

*Interview conducted January 12, 2022.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, today, we’re here with Adelle Stewart. This is part of an educational equestrian series. It’s from the point of view of a greenhorn, myself. To start, what were some of the earlier indications of interest in horses or becoming active in equestrianism as a youngster?

Adelle Stewart[1],[2]: Yes, I have to say that it’s like you’re born with it, honestly, like it’s this disease [Laughing]. I don’t know. Some people call it that you’re born with horses in your blood, horse for causes, or obsessive actions with horses. So, yes, I don’t remember a time that I didn’t love them. From a toddler, I would have to ride the merry go rounds and the carousels at the fair in the summer and things like that. And I was obsessed over horse books and all of those things. It always was an innate feeling or draw towards them for me.

Jacobsen: Is this common among the cohort for yourself? Even intergenerationally, is it a common thing?

Stewart: Yes, usually, absolutely. I had a mother who was wild into horses when she was younger, gave them up to raise a family, and then got back into them once the kids had left the nest and things like that. So, most of the people that I connect with, they have always had this knowing, as being from a young child involvement into horses.

Jacobsen: Did you have any mentors or exemplars that came to mind, like other than your mom, on the equine circuit as you were growing up?

Stewart: No, I was a farm kid trapped in the city. I was born and raised in the city and needed to, as soon as I was of age, buy my own place or whatever, as I got out to the country. So, it was always something. I didn’t know anybody who had horses when I was a young kid growing up. I grew and navigated towards becoming a vet when I grew up. Anything that could get me more into horses. But it wasn’t until I was about 9 or 10 years old that I started going to summer camps, and then those people there became my idols where I learned how to ride as a preteen and things like that. Those people at that barn became idols for me at that age.

Jacobsen: What do you do at the summer camps other than learning how to ride?

Stewart: Well, there would be like overnight camps. So, sometimes we would have day camps but other times we stayed in the bunkhouse. So, we had to get up early in the morning before we had breakfast. We had to take care of the horses and bed them down, clean their stalls, and pitch the hay before we fed ourselves. So, we learned how to be cowgirls.

Jacobsen: How do you define a cowgirl?

Stewart: A cowgirl doesn’t have to ride horses. They have to be independent. They have to be gritty, have a lot of heart and a lot of passion for what they do. This is, I say, being an equestrian or being a cowgirl or a life with horses. People say, “Well, that must be a lot of work”. And I was like,” You know what, it’s a lot of work, it is, but it’s a lifestyle.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I’ve heard it so many times now. What are other pieces of common wisdom within the industry other than “it’s a lifestyle,” “you start young,” etc.?

Stewart: Yes, it’s like ‘put your big girl britches on’ or like ‘put your boots on and deal with it,’ really. It’s that type of thing because you have no other choice. You are dealing on a daily basis with living, breathing beings that are 10-12 times your size with independent mind, body, and soul. So, every day that you wake up and you’re thankful. The fences can be down, or horses can be down, or someone can have a laceration, or any of those things. So, at any time, an equestrian or cowgirl has to be ready to deal with every element of the unknown. So, it goes hand in hand with why it’s a lifestyle. You have to be absolutely adaptable to any situation, but also rigid on your horse husbandry skills and things like that on a day to day basis.

Jacobsen: How do the elements of different seasons impact the way you work with a horse?

Stewart: Hugely. They impact them from what we can do with our horses. For example, we went through a big cold snap, where we can’t work our horses. It wasn’t conducive to put them into increasing the respiration rates and things like that in terms of a husbandry or welfare point of view. But then it comes down to everything from our exercise to the safety of it; when spring and fall come in, their footing becomes an issue if you’re not riding indoors and things like that. We don’t have an indoor facility. So, we work with whatever mother nature gives us. And then one of the ways that I gravitate more towards is the horse health aspect of it and weather swings. We had a 50 degree weather swing, honestly, from minus 50 with the wind-chill to plus 2 degrees today. That barometric pressure changes can cause extreme stress on horses’ very sensitive digestive system. So, we’re on what we call ‘colic watch’, which is a gastrointestinal issue with animals that they’re so sensitive to that. So, their health is a big part of the welfare that the seasonal changes play as well.

Jacobsen: What does a horse do when it becomes colicky?

Stewart: Symptoms can be very mild. So, they can have a tummy ache; something as simple as laying down and looking at their stomach to pawing with their front foot. Some of them will try to kick with their back foot or back up, which is something that’s weird. A horse doesn’t normally in the wild or hanging out in the pasture, backing up is an unnatural gait for them. So, sometimes backing up will be a symptom of that at a very early stage, but then as the tummy ache progresses; it would be like laying down, rolling and thrashing, which is when things get dangerous.

Jacobsen: When it gets dangerous like that when they’re rolling around and thrashing, can they actually worsen their own symptoms by doing so?

Stewart: Yes, absolutely. The rolling and thrashing can cause what’s called a torsion colic. That’s actually a twisted gut, which then is either only survivable by operation if it can be operated.

Jacobsen: What are other conditions for horses, where the only option for the horse owner is honestly to not have the horse anymore?

Stewart: Yes, the biggest one – I mean, anything can happen by determining the severity of it, but the next to major one from colic would be a leg fracture or a leg break. They’re not like a dog, where they can get along well with three legs and amputate. They must have four pillars to stand on. So, a leg break or a fracture below the knee is usually a fatal injury in a horse.

Jacobsen: What is it about their biomechanics that requires four legs absolutely, 100%?

Stewart: It has mostly to do with what would be called a compensatory laminitis. So, a horse’s hoof is a capsule like a fingernail; even more rigid, so it doesn’t have a lot of breathing room. A horse puts 60% of their weight on their front legs even breaking that in half to carry all of that weight. A horse’s shoulder is not connected by a joint; they don’t have a clavicle like a human does or anything like that especially in the front feet. All the shoulder is connected by only tendon, muscle, and ligament. So, when you take a foot away from them, they develop that compensatory laminitis, which is a swelling of the hoof capsule or inside the hoof capsule, which is debilitatingly and cruelly painful to a horse. So, that becomes the secondary and most often factor that plays into why a leg break or fracture. It’s not that the fracture can’t heal. It’s the length of time that it would take to heal that puts too much strain on the other limb.

Jacobsen: How long would it take to heal in irregular circumstances?

Stewart: Like, you’re talking months of box rest or stall rest, probably, and then rehab from that.

Jacobsen: In the state of nature, would the horse survive?

Stewart: No, they would be left by the herd.

Jacobsen: How many horses are in a herd typically? What’s the range?

Stewart: It depends from farm to farm. We have three horses in one pasture and six in another and other people will run 50 head together. So, it depends on land and acreage that a person has.

Jacobsen: How many acres of land would an average farmer have and will be the upper limit, really?

Stewart: I think hobby farmers in Western Canada or like across Canada are mostly in that, like five to 50 acres, would be a hobby farm. And here, where I run a little bit more of a ranch, so we’re your 50 plus. So, 50-160 acres would be a little bit bigger like you’re second tier. And then above that you’re talking, that would be more cattle ranch sizes more than 100 or 160 acres. It isn’t all that common for the general horse owner.

Jacobsen: What areas in Canada tend to be known as places for horses to live and live well?

Stewart: Hot spot in Canada absolutely is Alberta; has the most horses per capita, in every discipline, from English to Western and all of those types of things. So, Alberta is an absolute hot spot, Saskatchewan probably following that, maybe second or third, potentially with Ontario, with the capita of people that exist there.

Jacobsen: And what facilities tend to be known for jumper, hunter, for eventing, for dressage?

Stewart: Those are a little bit further reach. I’m a Western girl myself, but, in Alberta, you’re talking like Spruce Meadows is probably the most famous or iconic place in Canada when we think about show jumpers and things like that.

Jacobsen: For Prime Equine, what was the vision when founding?

Stewart: I’ve always been a girl who wanted to make a living with horses. I wasn’t a skilled enough jockey to ride my way there. I wasn’t a skilled enough trainer to train my way there. So, I actually started out as an equine first aid instructor. I received my advanced certification for that in 2017 and it ended up blossoming and growing from there. So, we started carrying retail products, and then expanded and started creating our own course content and our own education. My real passion is helping the average horse owner, which I once was, become exceptional. So, pushing forward the care and the husbandry for our horses; they don’t ask to be rode, they don’t ask to be kept between our fences and things like that as wild creatures. My vision and my passion is helping horse owners create the best lifestyle for their horses in our captivity.

Jacobsen: How many acres does a horse typically need at one facility?

Stewart: It depends. I’m a big advocate of horses on full turnout. So, there are some places, who keep horses in like 12×12 stalls, or they may be spend the night in the stall and in the day in a 20×40 run called a paddock or a corral. And I don’t love that. I love keeping my horses as natural as possible. So, a horse that was kept in that sort of facility needs to be on 24/7 hay as their primary forage whereas, I run my horses on a pasture on full turnout. So, they need to average. It usually depends on the rainfall and things like that each year. But for each horse to graze for our grazing season that we have in Canada, you typically need three to five acres per animal.

Jacobsen: How many horses do you have on site now?

Stewart: We have 11 horses and three miniature donkeys here.

Jacobsen: What’s the capacity for you in terms of having donkeys, having horses? How do you differentiate between how many you want of each? Because there are resource limits, there’s what you had beforehand or the previous year in terms of the finances, the clients, etc., putting limits on what you can do in the future. So, there’s a historical context that sets boundaries on what can be done in the future along with what you’re doing right now. So, what are the logistical steps around that?

Stewart: Yes, we’re extremely weather dependent and very conservative. So, we are scaled back right now. And with human talent and resources but primary forage, having enough forage for the animals to graze on the grass and the pastures on their turnout for as long as possible. And then we start thinking for what our capacity is for the fall. We start thinking about that in July when we have or not had a significant amount of rainfall. So, we are watching the amount of snow we get. So, now from January till April, I am considering the amount of snow we get. Through spring, I am watching how fast that melts off because the faster it melts, the worse for us honestly, the worse that the hay crop is going to be.

And then through May and July, we’re watching how much rain we get. And so, if we start not getting very much precipitation through those months, I will stop intake for horse boarders for the rest of the year because that means hay is going to be sparse. When it’s sparse, it’s more expensive. And then even at that, the existing clientele that we have here at that point in time when the end of July rolls around, and we’re forecasting when we start making projections to increase board and things like their rent. It can have a turnover effect when they can find somewhere cheaper to go and things like that. So, that’s how we start mitigating it. And then if you do get a constant hay supplier; I’m very lucky. I have a constant hay supplier that I am actually purchasing extra hay. So, for the last two years, because we’ve had more drought years, when I can get good hay, I bring in more than I need because it can last for several years at a time as long as it’s stored well. So, all of those things, it’s a strategic and multi-year. You’re talking one and three year plans for taking horses at that level.

Jacobsen: How do you store your hay?

Stewart: Our square bale hay is stored inside. And then when we do buy round bales, they are stored in rows outside in the elements, but they’re net wrapped. And then when we feed them, we peel off those outer layers, so the inner parts that are still nutritious and palatable for the horses is what’s fed.

Jacobsen: And what can typically ruin the nutritional value of hay rapidly?

Stewart: Yes, the biggest thing is knowing your hay supplier and understanding the moisture content that it was bailed out. And the biggest thing that will ruin hay is hay that is put up with too much moisture because it will mold and rot from the inside out and hay with mold in it is something that will cause colic in horses. So, it’s absolutely not able to be fed. And then other things like grains or the types of hay, whether it’s a grass or legume like alfalfa; all of those types of things go into the nutritious value of it. The older the hay is the more you have to supplement. If the hay is a year or two old, I have a background in equine nutrition, so we can make up that difference if we’re feeding two-year-old hay. Through both our forage analysis which we have done every year and then calculating for the mineral deficiencies that would continue with the length of time, we can make that up through a grain or a supplement.

Jacobsen: For some clients particularly, they want more specific types of hay or supplements, etc., for their horse and they’re willing to pay a lot of money. How does this calculate into a ranch owner or someone who runs a stable, their calculations for food expenses?

Stewart: Yes, that’s your major accounts payable-receivable types of things. So, I am lucky that I am probably one of the pickiest people when it comes to equine nutrition and balancing forage. Over the last 10 years that I have done testing of our hay, I have not found any hay; it can look as beautiful as you want it to and please any owner to the eye, but, unless you’re testing it, you have no idea what is in it. So, we test our hay every year and I’ve never found hay that doesn’t have some sort of mineral deficiency in it; it’s normal. So, we understand what that is. So, then we can offer our forage analysis results up to our owners, so they can either take their own and build their own nutrition plan or I can consult with them about what their horse needs; because not only is there some major deficiencies in, maybe, the forage but each horse span as an individual, their age, their workload, all of those things play into the amount of supplementation that they may need for the winter that we’re feeding.

Jacobsen: What are the major deficiencies found in horses in the hay?

Stewart: From the last 10 years that we’ve been testing a major imbalanced ratio of calcium to phosphorus. So, our hay here anyway is very high in calcium and very low in phosphorus. And that’s a detrimental imbalance to have because too much calcium in a diet can turn your muscle- and tendon-like tissue into bone-like tissue. So, the stuff that we need to be very flexible for our athletes; those ligaments and muscles, can become too tight. And that can cause injury. So, you need to have that two to one appropriate ratio. And that’s a major deficiency that we see here. And then the second major, it’s not a deficiency, but it’s actually way too much; we have way too much iron in both our water and our hay from everything that we’ve tested. So, we need to balance the copper, zinc, and manganese. You need to increase those ratios to correlate to the excess iron that they’re receiving in their diets. And things like iron can lead to insulin resistance and other types of diseases of that type in horses, there’s a correlation there. So, off the top of my head, those are the biggest ones as well as sugar and starch. Horses don’t need a lot of carbs if they are not elite athletes. So, that’s another thing that can cause again, that insulin type resistance issue.

Footnotes

[1] Founder, Prime Equine – Equine Assisted Learning Center & Equine First Aid Academy.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stewart-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 13: Adelle Stewart on Horses, Hay, and Prime Equine (1)[Online]. July 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stewart-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 13: Adelle Stewart on Horses, Hay, and Prime Equine (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stewart-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 13: Adelle Stewart on Horses, Hay, and Prime Equine (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stewart-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 13: Adelle Stewart on Horses, Hay, and Prime Equine (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stewart-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 13: Adelle Stewart on Horses, Hay, and Prime Equine (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stewart-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 13: Adelle Stewart on Horses, Hay, and Prime Equine (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stewart-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 13: Adelle Stewart on Horses, Hay, and Prime Equine (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stewart-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 13: Adelle Stewart on Horses, Hay, and Prime Equine (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stewart-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 13: Adelle Stewart on Horses, Hay, and Prime Equine (1)[Internet]. (2022, July 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/stewart-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-07-22

Conversation with Claus Volko, M.D. on High-I.Q. Societies: Member, World Genius Directory (6)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,068

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Claus Volko is an Austrian computer and medical scientist who has conducted research on the treatment of cancer and severe mental disorders by conversion of stress hormones into immunity hormones. This research gave birth to a new scientific paradigm which he called “symbiont conversion theory”: methods to convert cells exhibiting parasitic behaviour to cells that act as symbionts. In 2013 Volko, obtained an IQ score of 172 on the Equally Normed Numerical Derivation Test. He is also the founder and president of Prudentia High IQ Society, a society for people with an IQ of 140 or higher, preferably academics. He discusses: high IQ societies; Mensa in Austria; current size of Prudentia; journal publications; the Facebook group; membership size and demographics; Facebook; “only positive aspects” to high-IQ societies; the failures; more realistic purposes; the tests of Ivan Ivec; other societies than Mensa; Henning Ludvigsen; Kostantino Pataridis; hardly anyone drank at the Mensa meetings; logics; the journal; the new society; members from Europe, Asia, and North America; books; television, movies, or music of interest; interesting discoveries in medicine; a paradigm shift; and favourite issue of the society journal.

Keywords: Claus Volko, Facebook, fuzzy logic, Henning Ludvigsen, High IQ societies, Ivan Ivec, Jungian Personality Theory, Kostantino Pataridis, Mensa International, Metaphysics, Prudentia, Symbiont Conversion Theory, Vienna.

Conversation with Claus Volko, M.D. on High-I.Q. Societies: Member, World Genius Directory (6)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*Interview conducted in late 2020. The delay is personal idiocy, not his.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Why are most “high IQ societies are not much more than websites with member lists”?

Claus Volko, M.D.[1],[2]*: Mostly because they are international organizations that have members in a large number of countries but not many members in a single country. So there are no real-life, face-to-face meetings.

Jacobsen: How is Mensa in Austria able to host monthly meetings in Vienna?

Volko: There are about 200 members living in Vienna.

Jacobsen: What is the current size of Prudentia?

Volko: Right now we have 46 members.

Jacobsen: The journal publications seem short in the first analysis. Why short for some of these first issues of the journal?

Volko: I decided to publish a new issue of the journal whenever I had new material to publish instead of keeping collecting material until a certain amount would have been gathered.

Jacobsen: What happens on the Facebook group?

Volko: Not much yet. Mostly introducing new members.

Jacobsen: What is the membership size and demographics now?

Volko: There are members from Europe, Asia and North America.

Jacobsen: Why is Facebook the social medium for the high-IQ individuals?

Volko: Well, most people have a Facebook account. So why should they not use it.

Jacobsen: In regards to “only positive aspects” to high-IQ societies, what are the positive aspects of societies like Prudentia and Mensa International?

Volko: Prudentia has a nice journal with some highly interesting articles, e.g. on Symbiont Conversion Theory and on the Synthesis of Metaphysics and Jungian Personality Theory.

Jacobsen: If, in theory, they could perform such a function apart from the postsecondary institutional environment and the long-term existence of the societies. Why the failures to do it? Also, is this reasonable with the fact that most “high IQ societies are not much more than websites with member lists”?

Volko: High IQ societies need to publish more educational and scientific articles.

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, why not simply have the more straightforward notion of the evidenced existence of social communities for the highly intelligence alongside academia as a more concrete and realistic contributor to the needs of society? One can point to the failures of academia. However, its benefits would seem to far outweigh its costs and the high-IQ societies appear, as you noted, “not much more than websites with member lists.” As well, what other more realistic purposes could high-IQ societies perform in the early 21^st century, even the middle 21st century?

Volko: Basically high IQ societies are a means of getting to know people. It does not matter which society one belongs to, people connect with each other via Facebook and talk.

Jacobsen: Why the tests of Ivan Ivec?

Volko: They are pretty well-made and have decent norms.

Jacobsen: Are there any other societies than Mensa providing real in-person meetings?

Volko: Intertel has annual gatherings, as far as I know.

Jacobsen: What are some examples of the works of Henning Ludvigsen exemplfiying his talent?

Volko: He has made a lot of great drawings, e.g. title pictures of some issues of Hugi Magazine.

Jacobsen: What are some examples of the works of Kostantino Pataridis exemplfiying his talent?

Volko: His best work in my opinion is “Happiness is around the bend”: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SQngoCBvq3Q.

Jacobsen: Why do you think hardly anyone drank at the Mensa meetings? Did you ever drink akin to fellow high school students in high school?

Volko: I don’t often drink, only when others around me drink too. I think Mensa members are proud of their intelligence and know that alcohol may harm their intellect, so they avoid it.

Jacobsen: Are there logics in which the assigning of values “true” and “false” simply fail?

Volko: There are also multi-valued logics such as fuzzy logic where a probability that the value is true is assigned to it.

Jacobsen: What topics would you hope to explore in the journal as the society membership grows?

Volko: I would like to explore topics related to all of science and philosophy. Prudentia is a high IQ society that is primarily for academics and people with interest in science and philosophy. The journal is supposed to give these people a platform where they can present their own original ideas.

Jacobsen: How big do you hope to grow the new society? That is, what would be your highest hopes?

Volko: More important than the number of members is their activity. I would like to have a group of members who regularly contribute to the journal. If I manage to gather such a group, Prudentia has been a success.

Jacobsen: Of those members from Europe, Asia, and North America, are most from Europe?

Volko: Yes, currently most of our members are from Europe.

Jacobsen: Have you been reading any books as of late?

Volko: Admittedly, no. Due to Corona the bookshops are closed and I haven’t read any of the books I have at home in recent days. But I would like to read the textbooks on introductory math and physics for university students which I purchased some time ago soon.

Jacobsen: Any interesting television, movies, or music of interest to you?

Volko: I regularly watch an Austrian television programme in which the participants tell each other jokes. In addition, I enjoy watching quiz programmes. My favourite movies are the Bourne saga, the Mission Impossible saga, the Divergent trilogy and the Indiana Jones movies.

Jacobsen: What are some interesting discoveries in medicine alongside Symbiont Conversion Theory?

Volko: Recently a new DNA shape has been discovered, and artificial intelligence has been applied to discover 3D protein foldings.

Jacobsen: Do you think philosophy, science, or theology are due for a paradigm shift? If so, why so? If not, why not? This can be outside of the earlier professional propositions by you.

Volko: I am not sure about this and I have no idea whether anybody is able to assess this at all. My view is that every person has a different opinion and that there is not a uniform scientific paradigm.

Jacobsen: What is your favourite issue of the society journal so far?

Volko: I like the second and the third issue very much because of their original scientific contents. Also, “The Synthesis of Metaphysics and Jungian Personality Theory” is a very good article, in my opinion (I know that I am praising myself here, as I am the author, but I would be of the same view if any other person had written the article).

Footnotes

[1] Member, World Genius Directory; Member, Nobel Society; Member, Prometheus 2.0 Society; Advisor; GIGA Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/volko-6; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Claus Volko, M.D. on High-I.Q. Societies: Member, World Genius Directory (6) [Online]. July 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/volko-6.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 22). Conversation with Claus Volko, M.D. on High-I.Q. Societies: Member, World Genius Directory (6) . Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/volko-6.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Claus Volko, M.D. on High-I.Q. Societies: Member, World Genius Directory (6). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/volko-6>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Claus Volko, M.D. on High-I.Q. Societies: Member, World Genius Directory (6).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/volko-6.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Claus Volko, M.D. on High-I.Q. Societies: Member, World Genius Directory (6).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/volko-6.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Claus Volko, M.D. on High-I.Q. Societies: Member, World Genius Directory (6)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/volko-6>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Claus Volko, M.D. on High-I.Q. Societies: Member, World Genius Directory (6) ’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/volko-6.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Claus Volko, M.D. on High-I.Q. Societies: Member, World Genius Directory (6).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/volko-6>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Claus Volko, M.D. on High-I.Q. Societies: Member, World Genius Directory (6) [Internet]. (2022, July 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/volko-6.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-07-22

Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on Mild and Severe Reactions to Score Reports, Recognition, Rick Rosner, and Personality Factors: Member, Giga Society (8)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,560

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Matthew Scillitani, member of the Glia Society and Giga Society, is a software developer living in Cary, North Carolina. He is of Italian and British lineage, and is fluent in English and Dutch (reading and writing). He earned his bachelor’s degree in psychology at East Carolina University. As of 2022, he’s pursuing a second bachelor’s degree in computer science. He previously worked as a research psychologist, data analyst, writer, editor, web developer, and software engineer. You may contact him via e-mail at mattscil@gmail.com. He discusses: I.Q.; Psychometric Qrosswords; minor recognition; the communication with other members; conversations evolve with similarly mentally talented people; feedback to members presenting ideas; interview with Rick Rosner; the feeling or the click of solving a hard problem on a high-range test; genius get mistaken for stupidity; testing geniuses; charisma; self-confidence; Computer Science; a stable and happy situation regarding income; and impressive limitations in ordinary people.

Keywords: Giga Society, Matthew Scillitani, personality factors, Psychometric Qrosswords, Rick Rosner.

Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on Mild and Severe Reactions to Score Reports, Recognition, Rick Rosner, and Personality Factors: Member, Giga Society (8)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Paul loves crushing people’s self-inflated notions of their I.Q. In that, they assume having a higher intelligence quotient than in reality. You know the phrase, “A Megalomaniac’s Waterloo.” He’s funny. What is a typical reaction of someone who takes one, or even multiple, tests by Paul and fails to enter the Giga Society, even the Glia Society, as far as you know?

Matthew Scillitani[1],[2]*: I think most test-takers don’t believe they’ll qualify for the Giga Society so it’s not a huge blow to their egos when they don’t get in. I do know of many people who haven’t been able to qualify for the Glia Society and it’s crushed them though. It’s not uncommon for someone to think they’ll score 150 or 160 and score in the 120s or 130s and then post on social media or in a forum that Paul doesn’t grade fairly or that I.Q. tests don’t matter anyway. Some more serious reactions were from candidates e-mailing me to say that they considered suicide after seeing their score report.

Jacobsen: When did you realize, “I got it,’ regarding Psychometric Qrosswords? In that, you nailed the test. You must’ve had a sense of doing well on it, before receiving the score.

Scillitani: When I filled in my last answer I felt that they were probably all right but wasn’t totally confident I’d qualify for Giga. It happens often that one thinks they have every answer right and ends up totally off and misses half or more answers so I only really knew when I saw the score report. That was an exciting moment.

Jacobsen: Was the pursuit of the minor recognition worth the requisite effort?

Scillitani: Hmm, well, that was really a secondary or tertiary goal but I would say it was worth it. Some readers will roll their eyes and scoff at my wanting recognition for an inborn quality as opposed to an achievement but I’ll remind everyone that even when one does great things they rarely get recognition for it in their lifetime anyway, so I’ll take any positive recognition I can get. A great example of this is that, at every job I’ve worked to date, I’ve optimized and revolutionized whatever task I was given and have never received a raise, promotion, or even a pat on the back. The opposite, actually. Many times co-workers or even managers have stolen my ideas or work because it was better than anything they could come up with themselves.

Jacobsen: In those conversations on “STEM, politics, religion, and so forth,” what is the first thing noticed in the communication with other members?

Scillitani: That every member has something interesting to say and is largely polite and respectful. It’s amazing how few arguments and insults there are in discussions with Glia members, even when many of them are involved.

Jacobsen: How do those conversations evolve with similarly mentally talented people?

Scillitani: I wouldn’t know since It’s very hard to find a group of people whose I.Q.s are all at or above 147 outside of an I.Q. society. I’ve spoken one-on-one with smart people outside of I.Q. societies but personal conversations often go differently than ones in a group.

Jacobsen: How do members of the Glia Society give feedback to members presenting ideas for it?

Scillitani: When a member presents an idea to the group it usually goes quite well. If it is uninteresting then a member or two will comment on it in an objective way and then we’ll move on to another topic. If it’s interesting then it may trigger discussion with a handful of members and could even evolve into a group phone call that lasts for hours.

Jacobsen: Where was this interview with Rick Rosner published?

Scillitani: This interview was done by Errol Morris from the TV series, First Person. I believe the interview took place in 2001 but I didn’t watch it until 2016. I’ve also read some of Rosner’s interviews done by you as well.

Jacobsen: What is the feeling or the click of solving a hard problem on a high-range test?

Scillitani: It feels amazing. When the problem is hard and takes say, an hour or two, there’s a euphoric feeling and a wonderful dopamine rush. For extremely hard problems that take weeks or months it’s a kind of ‘jump out of your chair’ excitement that one rarely gets. I imagine it’s what winning the lottery feels like.

Jacobsen: How does genius get mistaken for stupidity, even for immaturity?

Scillitani: Intelligence is taken for stupidity in the presence of unintelligent people. Very few people know or can admit that they’re idiots so when they hear something they don’t understand, especially when the speaker isn’t considered an authority or expert on the subject, they can’t believe it’s their own lack of intelligence. They’d prefer to believe it’s the intelligent speaker who must be the moron. As for being taken as immature, I imagine that is related more to Asperger Syndrome, regardless of whether the person a genius or not. Most people see their rigidity, perceived abrasiveness, and lack of understanding social cues as immaturity.

Jacobsen: Why are testing geniuses, to find them, necessary for the advancement of humankind? Why is advancement of humankind the value, the direction for moral effort? What does the advancement of humankind look like to you?

Scillitani: Geniuses are the ones making all the breakthroughs, inventing all the useful gadgets, discovering how the universe works, and so forth, so they’re really the ones who are paving the way for mankind. As for the value in advancing mankind, aside from being one of our functions as a species, it’s just interesting. We’re on a big rock in space and we’re really smart, what else can we do but be curious about how it all works?

I’d like to see more focus on discovery, especially in Earth’s oceans, and in outer space; medical advancements capable of prolonging our lifespans; and for for big changes to happen in the political sphere.

Jacobsen: Why are so few geniuses “charismatic”?

Scillitani: This is probably because most of them have Asperger Syndrome or schizophrenia. Both of these disorders can make a person appear quirky, eccentric, hostile, and/or unpredictable and anti-social. Nikola Tesla was one of the few charismatic geniuses that almost certainly also had Asperger Syndrome but I can’t think of any others off the top of my head.

Jacobsen: Is self-confidence an important factor in improving performance in professional pursuits for the high-I.Q.?

Scillitani: Being self-confident is important for improving performance in almost every profession for anyone, regardless of their I.Q. If we don’t think we can achieve something then we’re dooming ourselves to mediocrity. I’m not suggesting everyone should believe in themselves or anything, but that if it is realistic for one to have the requisite abilities to do something, even if it’s rare, they should pursue it if they wish to.

Jacobsen: Why pursue Computer Science now?

Scillitani: It’s more interesting than business/advertising and there’s less political involvement than in psychology. Several times I considered dropping out of school while I was working towards my degree in psychology because of how pervasive politics are in that pseudo-science. So many researchers fabricate data or withhold data if it doesn’t align with their political beliefs and I wanted nothing to do with people like that. There’s a reason psychologists often say, “everybody lies [many times] everyday”!

Jacobsen: What would a stable and happy situation regarding income and a day job be for you?

Scillitani: Working alone and doing hard but slow tasks would be nice. I don’t like having to grind menial tasks all day or work in teams so I’m hoping I’ll be more independent as a computer scientist than an advertiser. As for income, I’ll take as much as I can get!

Jacobsen: When you realize the rather impressive limitations in ordinary people to form coherent thoughts, how does this impact the further extension of coherent thoughts into a worldview? In that, people, generally, aren’t coherent in a moment, so aren’t in general views. Does this explain a lot of ordinary human life to you?

Scillitani: Well, it’s taught me that most people don’t actually have their own worldview in the first place. Even when someone appears somewhat intelligent it’s usually that they’ve found a genuinely smart person, absorbed as much knowledge from them as they could, and then taken that person’s worldview as their own. I don’t believe that adults whose I.Q.s are below ~120 (about 1 in 10) are capable of processing information with any level of depth beyond simple “A –> B”, Pavlov’s Dog type thinking.

Also, yes, this does very well explain a lot about ordinary human life to me. I used to think that most people had willfully poor impulse control, were lazy, refused to think ahead, and so forth but now I know it’s that they *can’t* control their impulses on their own, *can’t* understand personal responsibility, and *can’t* think things through. That is a very depressing but unfortunate truth and most intelligent people can’t believe that’s how it is. The smarter someone is the more likely they think, “intelligence doesn’t matter much, it’s all about work ethic” or “anyone could do what I just did, we’re not so different.” That’s probably the most wrong they’ve ever been about anything in their lives though.

Footnotes

[1] Member, Giga Society; Member, Glia Society. Bachelor’s Degree, Psychology, East Carolina University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-8; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on Mild and Severe Reactions to Score Reports, Recognition, Rick Rosner, and Personality Factors: Member, Giga Society (8) [Online]. July 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-8.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 22). Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on Mild and Severe Reactions to Score Reports, Recognition, Rick Rosner, and Personality Factors: Member, Giga Society (8) . Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-8.

Brazilian Natio0ffffffnal Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on Mild and Severe Reactions to Score Reports, Recognition, Rick Rosner, and Personality Factors: Member, Giga Society (8). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-8>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on Mild and Severe Reactions to Score Reports, Recognition, Rick Rosner, and Personality Factors: Member, Giga Society (8).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-8.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on Mild and Severe Reactions to Score Reports, Recognition, Rick Rosner, and Personality Factors: Member, Giga Society (8).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-8.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on Mild and Severe Reactions to Score Reports, Recognition, Rick Rosner, and Personality Factors: Member, Giga Society (8)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-8>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on Mild and Severe Reactions to Score Reports, Recognition, Rick Rosner, and Personality Factors: Member, Giga Society (8) ’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-8.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on Mild and Severe Reactions to Score Reports, Recognition, Rick Rosner, and Personality Factors: Member, Giga Society (8).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-8>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on Mild and Severe Reactions to Score Reports, Recognition, Rick Rosner, and Personality Factors: Member, Giga Society (8) [Internet]. (2022, July 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-8.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-07-22

Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese in Education: Member, OlympIQ Society (4)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,449

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Entemake Aman (阿曼) claims an IQ of 180 (SD15) with membership in OlympIQ. With this, he claims one to be of the people with highest IQ in the world. He was born in Xinjiang, China. He believes IQ is innate and genius refers to people with IQ above 160 (SD15). Einstein’s IQ is estimated at 160. Aman thinks genius needs to be cultivated from an early age, and that he needs to make achievements in the fields he is interested in, such as physics, mathematics, computer and philosophy, and should work hard to give full play to his talent. He discusses: online games; TikTok; other projects; the older generations of Chinese; focus on I.Q.; an I.Q. between 120 and 130; an antipathy with British Mensa; Wayne Zhang; the cheating into OlympIQ; Wang Peng; Peng’s book on Mensa; Tsinghua University; Peking University; University of Science and Technology of China; best educated minds in China; Chinese education; the U.S.; thinking rather than memorization; liberal arts in China; the subjects covered in liberal arts education in China; top universities in the U.S. reject the Chinese college entrance examination; young Chinese dream about money; first grade and high school; Chinese with super-high-I.Q.s; Chinese professional society; innovative and imaginative thinkers; and key senior high schools.

Keywords: China, Chinese education, Entemake Aman, high school, liberal arts, OlympIQ, Peking University, TikTok, Tsinghua University, university, Wang Peng.

Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese in Education: Member, OlympIQ Society (4)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are the most prominent online games for young Chinese?

Entemake Aman (阿曼)[1],[2]*: PUBG and League of Legends.

Jacobsen: Why is TikTok so popular for the youth of China?

Aman: Tiktok can send video content according to people’s interests. You can also make money by becoming an online celebrity through Tiktok.

Jacobsen: What are some of the other projects ongoing now?

Aman: Young people also like to chat with others through wechat and watch others’ wechat circle of friends.

Jacobsen: Why are the older generations of Chinese focused on chess, playing cards, and entertainment equipment?

Aman: These are the recreational games for the elderly. When they were young, they did not have mobile phones and computers. When they were old, they were still used to the entertainment items they used to play when they were young.

Jacobsen: Is focus on I.Q. more of a young person thing than an older person thing in China?

Aman: In China’s high IQ circles, we haven’t seen any elderly people with IQ above 160. On the contrary, there are many elderly people in Mega society. In China, young people pay more attention to high IQ. Their age is generally between 15 and 50.

Jacobsen: Why is an I.Q. between 120 and 130 the range for those can study well and perform well in the Chinese academic system?

Aman: In China, there are two courses in physics and mathematics. The full score requires an IQ between 120 and 130 (sd15). But full marks require special efforts and good teachers. Chemistry, biology, Chinese and English require the ability to recite knowledge and apply knowledge. So many times, people with an IQ of more than 140 (sd15) may not achieve good results even if they work hard.

Jacobsen: Is there an antipathy with British Mensa and the former chairman of Mensa in China, or is this simply a bureaucratic decision to not repeat the same mistakes from before by British Mensa?

Aman: I heard that the former chairman of Mensa spent money from Mensa China. There may also be bureaucratic reasons.

Jacobsen: Why is Wayne Zhang so low-key?

Aman: This may be his charm. His photos also look like a mature man.

Jacobsen: How is the cheating into OlympIQ know without evidence to support the claims? Who got sloppy?

Aman: A lot of circumstantial evidence. And I am 100% sure that there are many people cheating in China. By chatting with these people, we can also judge their thinking ability. Anyway, China’s slse48 and slseii scores are very abnormal. This is also the reason why Giga society no longer recognizes slse48.

Jacobsen: What makes Wang Peng known in the Chinese high-I.Q. circles?

Aman: Because he was in 2009, slse48 got 30 points. He is also a Mensa member. He has published a book about Mensa. He also married a Mensa Chinese member.

Jacobsen: What was the focus on Peng’s book on Mensa? What were the contents? Is there a publicly accessible link to it?

Aman: This is a book published from 2010 to 2011. Its name is Mensa Road, which can be found through Taobao app. I wonder if Amazon can find it. This book popularizes the high IQ Association and carries an IQ test (which can measure people with IQ below 145sd15). There are some IQ questions.

Jacobsen: What makes Peking University great?

Aman: The mathematics and physics majors of Peking University are especially strong! In China, many IMO gold medal winners go to Peking University to study.

Jacobsen: Why do some of the best educated minds in China leave for the United States – sometimes for life?

Aman: Because American education is the first in the world.

Jacobsen: Was your own experience with Chinese education more positive than negative or more negative than positive?

Aman: More negative than positive.

Jacobsen: With time to mature from childhood, does the U.S. seem to have an education focused on “interest, talent and happiness”? Which means, has your opinion changed or stayed the same?

Aman: I think American education is more suitable for genius, and Chinese education is more suitable for ordinary people. This is also the view of Yang Zhenning, the Nobel Prize in physics, in an interview.

Jacobsen: Do you think those with an I.Q. above 130 tend to be more focused on thinking rather than memorization? In other words, they process concepts in mind rather than commit them to memory and then recite them in the test.

Aman: Memory and IQ are two different abilities. My memory is at the average level, but my IQ is 180 (sd15). People with IQ over 130 (sd15) have more innovative thinking and imagination. Too many recitation tests will limit their talent!

Jacobsen: Why are liberal arts in China more focused on recitation?

Aman: Exam oriented education is to select people who work harder. After graduation from University, they choose careers such as lawyers and accountants that need to recite a lot of books!

Jacobsen: What are the subjects covered in liberal arts education in China?

Aman: High school courses were politics, history, geography, mathematics (simpler than science), Chinese and English.

China’s education pays more attention to scores. Students usually have more homework and exams, and they have relatively little free time to allocate. They also do not encourage and tap students’ Extracurricular potential. The classroom atmosphere will be more serious. It always focuses on learning more, reciting more, practicing more and taking more exams to cultivate students’ absorption of knowledge. Generally, you just need to study hard. You don’t need to prepare any specific materials and pay attention to the application time. You just need to follow the steps of teachers and students to study the exam in a regular way. The educational goal of American education does not attach much importance to the learning of “basic knowledge”, but attaches great importance to the cultivation of students’ creativity. It is not enough for children who can only learn. The most popular students in the United States are those who have excellent performance in the field of sports and have their own skills. They may only get upper middle grades, but they often get the best resources, or even priority admission places.

Jacobsen: Why do most of the top universities in the U.S. reject the Chinese college entrance examination?

Aman: In the United States, performance is not the only criterion. They pay more attention to your personal abilities and characteristics. So you know, it takes a long time to find your interest and prove your strength. We should find what we are interested in and good at in different extracurricular activities, and then practice to hone our skills, and then participate in various professional competitions to prove our strength. In the United States, most of this training method began from junior high school.

Jacobsen: Do many young Chinese dream about money more than anything else?

Aman: Money can solve 99% of the problems. Many students may not go to college because of their hobbies, but to find a good job to make money!

Jacobsen: How does the first grade (age 6 to 7) differ from high school (age 15 to 18)?

Aman: High school students aged 15 to 18 work harder, while those aged 5 to 7 study mathematics and Chinese. Learn how to write, simple arithmetic, etc. But from my own experience, every morning and afternoon, pupils aged 5 to 7 also have to learn.

Jacobsen: Even though, these Chinese with super-high-I.Q.s went to ordinary universities. How did they leverage their mental talents, regardless?

Aman: These 15 talents with IQ over 170 (sd15) have no chance to show their talents and choose their favorite majors. Their school is very ordinary (the University ranks after 800 in the world). They may accomplish nothing in their life. This is also the reason why there are few Nobel prizes in China.

Jacobsen: Are there benefits in Chinese professional society for the recitation and focus on memorized information?

Aman: Reciting knowledge can help us get good grades in the exam.

Jacobsen: Are more innovative and imaginative thinkers with I.Q.s over 140 (S.D. 150 prone to conformity and rejection by Chinese society?

Aman: They also need this knowledge to be thinkers. From my own experience, few people around me pay attention to the field of high IQ. No one is excluded, of course, because there are few opportunities to show the talents of thinkers.

Jacobsen: How many students, from these key senior high schools, participate in the physics competitions and mathematics competitions?

Aman: Although I have an IQ of 180 (sd15), I didn’t go to a key high school. Even in a key high school, the number is relatively small.

Footnotes

[1] Member, OlympIQ Society; Member, Mensa International.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-4; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese in Education: Member, OlympIQ Society (4)[Online]. July 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-4.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6^th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 15). Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese in Education: Member, OlympIQ Society (4). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-4.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese in Education: Member, OlympIQ Society (4). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-4>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese in Education: Member, OlympIQ Society (4).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-4.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese in Education: Member, OlympIQ Society (4).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-4.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese in Education: Member, OlympIQ Society (4)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-4>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese in Education: Member, OlympIQ Society (4)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-4.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7^thEdition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese in Education: Member, OlympIQ Society (4).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A(2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-4>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese in Education: Member, OlympIQ Society (4)[Internet]. (2022, July 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-4.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-07-15

James Webb Telescope: Alleged presence of water in the atmosphere of the Exoplanet Wasp-96 b

Author: Hindemburg Melão Jr.

Reviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.B, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,872

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

This article discusses the claims of the presence of water on exoplanet Wasp-96 b. There is a claim in some recent reportage in science news from the ESA-Webb news site. The author of this critical piece analyzes the claims about the allegations of the existence of water on the exoplanet Wasp-96 b. The author considers the article by ESA-Webb news more sensationalist than not.

Keywords: James Webb, James Webb Space Telescope, NASA, Wasp-96b, Water.

James Webb Telescope: Alleged presence of water in the atmosphere of the Exoplanet Wasp-96 b

*Please see the footnotes and citation style listing after the article.*[1],[2]

*Original publication here: https://www.saturnov.org/news/james-webb, exception non-original submission permitted.*

It was recently reported that a study conducted with the James Webb space telescope has revealed the presence of water in the atmosphere of an exoplanet located 1150 light-years away. Indeed, there is some favorable evidence, but how credible is this claim? In this article we will examine how much fantasy and how much reality there is in this story.

Among the various recent news stories about the James Webb Space Telescope, this one, https://esawebb.org/news/weic2206/, in particular caught my attention for its sub-optimal (not to say poorly done) regression and the interpretation that was made of this graph:

Image credits: Hindemburg Melao Jr., Saturnov, Sigma Society.

There are many details that could be commented on, but there are two in particular that I would like to look at:

among the several points indicated as signatures of the presence of water, only 1 is fairly clear (1.4 μm), and even in that case there is a large outlier nearby, which reduces the reliability in that signature. The points 1.9 μm and 1.1 μm are still reasonable, but the points 0.96 μm and 2.7 μm indicate nothing. In fact, the 2.7 μm point may indicate a counter-evidence.2. The regression model is apparently not parametric, perhaps some neural network was used for this, in which case a much better fit would be expected. The use of neural networks for this type of model should be used with great caution, because due to the large number of layers it is difficult to “see” and understand what is going on behind the fitting process.

When you use a model with 2 or 3 parameters, you know precisely what will change in the shape of the curve when you change each parameter up or down. But when you use a neural network, you are practically working with a “black box”, giving up understanding the underlying processes. In exchange, the use of this “black box” confers the “magical” power to achieve some operational advantages, among which is to get as good a fit as one wants, to corroborate any desired result (within certain more or less “plausible” limits). As a consequence, one can find what one wants, rather than finding the Truth. This is why I am generally against using neural nets, except in specific situations where one can compare them with results obtained by other methods, or as a fine-tuning step to improve a result that has already been determined by a more “cognizable” model, so to speak, as I have commented in my articles and my books.

I searched for the raw dataset on the Wasp-96 b light curve, but could not find it. On the James Webb website there is only data on the transits and the associated drops in brightness, but not on the absorption streaks at the different wavelengths. I would like to do my own modeling of the data, without the biases that apparently guided the intentions of the authors of this article, and calculate the probability that such results can be interpreted as a real signature of the presence of water. In any case, even without access to the data, it is still possible to make a panoramic analysis of what is on the graph, and the facts are not quite as the authors are suggesting.

It would be relatively simple and easy to make a better fitting model than the one used in this image taken from Webb’s site. In fact, it would be desirable to do at least two regressions, one without any a priori model, to try to capture the raw properties of what the data reveal to us, and another using a model on where the absorption streaks should be and what the absorption intensity is in each region, to make a more complete comparison of the entire morphology of the curves, rather than just comparing the positions of the ridges. This would provide a much more comprehensive view of the situation and help make a more reliable interpretation.

Both regressions would need to be robust, because there are many outliers that could shift the regression curve away from the region where it should be. Perhaps semi-robust models, such as Huber’s, would be more appropriate, because sometimes it is unclear whether or not a given point should be interpreted as an outlier, so it would be better to give each point a “credibility weight” or something, rather than entirely cutting off some points and leaving the rest entirely. Also, since there is little data in the sample, the uncertainty in determining which points are outliers is greater.

The fits near the crests of 1.4 and 1.1 are clearly bad, and visually one can already easily see that the curve of a good model should pass closer to the local central tendency of the point cloud in that part of the data, but it is passing far below.

One of the most “serious” problems is the distribution of the experimental points in the vicinity where the absorption line at 2.7 μm should be observed. This inconsistency at 2.7 μm may explain why the fit is (intentionally?) bad, because if they tried to do a better fit, the inconsistency would jump more clearly into view, so this degradation in fit quality may have been for the purpose of masking such inconsistency, to pretend that the problem in the hypothesis about the presence of water is not so serious.

A simple model with local adjustments of polynomials of order 3 every 7 points (or a little more), corrected at the extremities to connect smoothly, or something like that, would already provide a curve much more adherent to the points in the vicinity of the ridges, besides preserving the good fit in the other regions, making more evident the problem they tried to “disguise”. A Fourier series would also be an alternative to be considered, with the detail that the LPR fit needs fewer parameters in cases where there are long horizontal straight lines, or almost straight lines, because in these cases either the Fourier series needs a large number of parameters or it forces ripples that may not be representative of the reality where there are long straight segments.

In 2012, Liyun Su presented interesting work using “Local Polynomial Regression” (LPR), with clear advantages in many situations when one has a reasonable idea about the model a priori, but quite “dangerous” when one has no idea what to expect from the curve morphology. So it seems to me that the alternative I described above is able to meet well the criterion of being more adherent to the data, without substantially raising the risk of overfitting (as happens in some cases in which Liyun Su’s methods are applied). Therefore, the method I suggest in the previous paragraph would be preferable to both the method used by Su and the traditional Fourier series.

Wonsang You’s 2016 studies seem to me an interesting advance in the use of this tool, and Anna Derkacheva et. al.’s 2020 paper is decisively a good model for this purpose, with good local fits, low risk of overfitting, and when there are extensive and frequent càdlàgs in the time series, or substantial reductions in data density in certain regions, this type of method inhibits the emergence of large anomalies, as usually occurs with other methods. Although this is not a case of a time series, from a statistical point of view it can receive essentially the same approach, since each value on the x-axis has only 1 value on the y-axis, and every nth value is dependent on the (n-1)-th, which are some fundamental characteristics of time series.

Some of these studies are analyzed, refined and applied in my books IMCH and Two new rating systems. Here I will only give a brief introductory analysis, to clarify some of the most glaring problems.

The graph below shows an example taken from Anna Derkacheva’s article, in which some of the advantages of fitting a curve to a set of points with several undesirable symptoms are analyzed, and yet the fit looks very good and manages to avoid several typical errors that are often produced by other techniques:

Image credit: Anna Derkacheva.

Of course, this kind of model is useless for extrapolations, but it is extremely efficient for interpolations, deeply respecting the localities of the points along the whole considered spectrum.

However, none of this would be necessary to see the “error” in this case, which is quite obvious. By “glancing” at the graph on James Webb’s website one can already see that the 2.7 μm point probably contradicts the hypothesis of the presence of water, since in the vicinity of 2.7 μm there are empirical indications of a valley, but the hypothesis would require that there be a ridge. The use of more sophisticated models would only serve to formalize the detection of the problem and objectively demonstrate its presence.

Even if the uncertainties in this region (~2.7 μm) are large, due to the larger dispersion, this fact could not be neglected and the combined probability (in a Bayesian analysis) that the data set is a signature of the presence of water in the Wasp-96 b atmosphere becomes much more fragile when examining the situation with this approach. So it strikes me as a news story with symptoms of sensationalism, adopting a model with low adherence to the data, to force a “spectacular” interpretation in the eyes of the lay public, whose actual probability of being the correct interpretation is not that high, being far from conclusive.

One would need access to the raw data to calculate the probability that the null hypothesis (that the signal indicates the presence of water) should be ruled out. In the absence of the numerical values, looking at the graph, the most that can be done is a rough estimate. Within these limitations, the shape of the curve in the vicinity of the 1.4 μm point is very similar to that expected and the dispersion in this region is narrow. This is good for the author who argues that he has found evidence of water in the atmosphere of the exoplanet. It should also be noted that in the vicinity of the 1.1 μm point the fit is not as good, but still indicates a high probability. This is also a point in favor of the author of the article. But at the other points of the graph, the evidence is almost zero, and the big problem is that in the specific case of the 2.7 μm point, depending on the parameters of the model chosen to calculate the quality of fit, one can even have a counter-evidence.

A calculation that took this set of facts into account would perhaps indicate that there is more than a 90% probability that the data indicate the presence of water, which is indeed a strong indication, but at the same time the 10% probability that it is not an indication of the presence of water is something that could not be disregarded.

In particle physics and quantum mechanics, generally, when a new elementary particle is supposed to have been discovered, an evidence is considered “conclusive” when the accumulation of experimental data exceeds at least 99.73% probability that the observed signatures are of the particle sought. In some cases, only after the probability exceeds 99.99997% or 99.9999999% is it interpreted that the discovery has indeed been consummated. So a probability of “only” 90% is still a long way from what would substantiate such a strong statement, and should at the very least be viewed as over-optimism.

In any case, even if future research corroborates the presence of water in the atmosphere of this planet, some questions remain, including why they adopted such a poor model fit. The (probable) neural network itself used to generate the curve plotted in the graph published on J. Webb’s site is certainly versatile enough to allow a better fit, provided the author of the study wanted a better fit. This is reminiscent of those images of flying saucers, intentionally blurred to make it difficult to notice details that you don’t want to be noticed, lest you unmask something you wish to cover up. In my opinion, there is a lack of transparency, and the authors should at least try to justify why they preferred a bad setting. There are many situations where a “worse” fit is not only acceptable but also recommended to avoid overfitting, but this is clearly not the case. A brief discussion of this is done in my book about two new rating systems, in the part about a study by Rob Edwards to try to measure inflation in the rating. I also cover this topic in articles about investments and in some of my videos.

NASA, many other research centers and many universities have been doing this kind of cheap sensationalism for many years now. The news about life in the clouds of Venus, life on Mars, fossilized life in the Martian meteorite, life underground on Europa, evidence of a Dyson Sphere on another star, abnormal acceleration on Oumuamua, the imminent risk of explosion of Betelgeuse are just some examples of exaggerations and distortions, possibly intentional, because it is easier to get research funds this way. The sad reality is that science is just another enterprise at the service of the economy, advertising, politics, etc.

On the one hand, I think it is understandable that the pressure from the government and the people to justify investments in these projects forces researchers to make up the results, as well as needing to stitch together almost all astronomical research to force it to somehow connect to topics of popular interest, such as the search for alien life or saving the planet from an apocalyptic collision. I find this understandable, but I don’t agree. Surely there are more honorable ways to show the real importance of scientific results, without having to make them up to make them look “pretty” in the eyes of the general public. The ideal would be to educate the general public to enable people to appreciate and value real science, just as it is, instead of trivializing it to suit the taste of the lay public.

One of the problems of allowing science to be excessively contaminated by publicity is that some researchers may not distinguish between a serious and reliable study and one that is merely advertising, leading them to take as valid the results, whose errors end up spreading and contaminating other studies, in a chain reaction whose limits are lost sight of. This problem is much more frequent and more serious than one might think. In my book IMCH, I point out an alarming number of errors in data records from official sources, as well as several indications of fraud. Some authorities have been notified, but no action has been taken, indicating acquiescence with such frauds, or simple prevarication in some cases.

At this juncture, despite the various problems, the Financial Market is comparatively more transparent and more immune. I am not defending the Financial Market; on the contrary, I think that there are many problems of lack of ethics and a very worrying number of frauds not investigated, not supervised and not penalized in this sector. But there is a virtue that needs to be recognized: while in “science” one can play with theoretical models at will, without the errors being properly confronted with reality, in the Financial Market the models are confronted with reality all the time. This is why the use of accurate statistical tools to model the Financial Market is of crucial importance, so that one can maximize profits and minimize risks, with the results materializing quickly, impersonally and mercilessly. Errors and inaccuracies are punished, while success is rewarded in equal measure.

Nevertheless, in other areas, such as Psychometrics, Astrometry, Anthropometrics, Sociology, Cosmology, etc., mistakes are hardly punished at all. errors are hardly punished at all, and some errors are even awarded, with an unjustified recognition, supported by the lack of critical vision of the “peers” who analyze the cases under the same naive and incomplete prism of the authors of the awarded papers, leading to the exaltation of incorrect papers, simply because they fit better in the prevailing paradigms and dogmas, fitting better the collective beliefs of the majority of the academic community – in particular the beliefs of the members of the committees that determine who should receive the awards.

From this perspective, although the Financial Market can be cruel and bloodthirsty, it is also much more fair, more impartial, and produces results in accordance with the quality of the work developed. Not always the best works are the best rewarded in absolute terms, because the absolute gains depend on the percentage performances multiplied by the volumes under management, and as the vast majority of investors don’t have the basic knowledge to make good decisions about where to invest, it is natural that the vast majority of investors make bad choices, adopting shallow and irrational criteria. That is why the best investments do not necessarily produce the highest absolute profits, but they do produce the highest percentage profits, since these do not depend on the investors’ ability to choose, but only on the efficiency of the investment strategies themselves.

Footnotes

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/webb; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Melão H. James Webb Telescope: Alleged presence of water in the atmosphere of the Exoplanet Wasp-96 b[Online]. July 2022; 30(B). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/webb.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6^th Edition, 2010): Hindemburg, M. (2022, July 15). James Webb Telescope: Alleged presence of water in the atmosphere of the Exoplanet Wasp-96 b. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/webb.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): HINDEMBURG, M. James Webb Telescope: Alleged presence of water in the atmosphere of the Exoplanet Wasp-96 b. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.B, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/webb>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16^th Edition): Hindemburg, Melão. 2022. James Webb Telescope: Alleged presence of water in the atmosphere of the Exoplanet Wasp-96 b.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.B. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/webb.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16^th Edition): Hindemburg, Melão “James Webb Telescope: Alleged presence of water in the atmosphere of the Exoplanet Wasp-96 b.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.B (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/webb.

Harvard: Hindemburg, M. 2022, ‘James Webb Telescope: Alleged presence of water in the atmosphere of the Exoplanet Wasp-96 b’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.B. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/webb>.

Harvard, Australian: Hindemburg, M. 2022, ‘James Webb Telescope: Alleged presence of water in the atmosphere of the Exoplanet Wasp-96 b’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.B., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/webb.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7^thEdition, 2009):

Author: Hindemburg Melão Jr.

Reviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.B, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,872

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Keywords: James Webb, James Webb Space Telescope, NASA, Wasp-96b, Water.

James Webb Telescope: Alleged presence of water in the atmosphere of the Exoplanet Wasp-96 b

*Please see the footnotes and citation style listing after the interview.*[1],[2]

*Original publication here: https://www.saturnov.org/news/james-webb, exception non-original submission permitted.*

Image credits: Hindemburg Melao Jr., Saturnov, Sigma Society.

There are many details that could be commented on, but there are two in particular that I would like to look at:

among the several points indicated as signatures of the presence of water, only 1 is fairly clear (1.4 μm), and even in that case there is a large outlier nearby, which reduces the reliability in that signature. The points 1.9 μm and 1.1 μm are still reasonable, but the points 0.96 μm and 2.7 μm indicate nothing. In fact, the 2.7 μm point may indicate a counter-evidence.2. The regression model is apparently not parametric, perhaps some neural network was used for this, in which case a much better fit would be expected. The use of neural networks for this type of model should be used with great caution, because due to the large number of layers it is difficult to “see” and understand what is going on behind the fitting process.

Some of these studies are analyzed, refined and applied in my books IMCH and Two new rating systems. Here I will only give a brief introductory analysis, to clarify some of the most glaring problems.

Image credit: Anna Derkacheva.

Of course, this kind of model is useless for extrapolations, but it is extremely efficient for interpolations, deeply respecting the localities of the points along the whole considered spectrum.

Footnotes

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/webb; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7^thEdition, 2009): Melão Hindemburg. “James Webb Telescope: Alleged presence of water in the atmosphere of the Exoplanet Wasp-96 b.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A(2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/webb>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Hindemburg M. James Webb Telescope: Alleged presence of water in the atmosphere of the Exoplanet Wasp-96 b[Internet]. (2022, July 30(B). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/webb.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

. “James Webb Telescope: Alleged presence of water in the atmosphere of the Exoplanet Wasp-96 b.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A(2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/webb>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. James Webb Telescope: Alleged presence of water in the atmosphere of the Exoplanet Wasp-96 b[Internet]. (2022, July 30(B). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/webb.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-07-15

Conversation with Veronica Palladino, M.D. on Family, Molise, Naturalness, Women, and Religious Faith: Member, Glia Society (2)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,944

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Veronica Palladino, M.D., is a Medical Doctor, Co-Champion of the LexIQ Contest, an author of four books, and a member of a number of High-I.Q. societies. She discusses: the main teachings; family a physical and social nourishment; the parts of nature and types of ancient traditions one can find in Molise; an acceptance one’s true self and nature; a medical doctor; I.Q. scores; individuals self-promoting at various levels; the friend; a genius; the factors involved in genius; the uniqueness of each genius; strength; determination; creativity; originality; innovation; the medical system in Italy; reasonable working hours; the idea of neurodiversity; religious faith and science; science; patients will die; physicians translate innovations in science into ethical practice; Italy working towards integration ethics and politics with “environmentalism”; ultimate moral decision-making; and the principles of Catholicism.

Keywords: Catholicism, environmentalism, family, genius, Italy, Molise, moral decision-making, neurodiversity, patients, religious faith, science, Veronica Palladino.

Conversation with Veronica Palladino, M.D. on Family, Molise, Naturalness, Women, and Religious Faith: Member, Glia Society (2)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What were the main teachings provided by your father to your sister and you?

Veronica Palladino[1],[2]*: My dad’s teachings were very pragmatic. Few words and many facts. It doesn’t matter what you tell but what you do with passion and dedication. My father was a tireless worker, a strong and determined man. He said: “Do not cry but fight every moment of life”.

Jacobsen: Is family a physical and social nourishment and renewal, or more of a distant memory to recall for strength and revival, or both?

Palladino: According to me family is nourishment and renewal. When family is healthy it is a source of strength. It is a propellant towards infinite potential but when it is sick it generates traumas and torments from which it is difficult to heal. Every day there is a news case that remembers it. Therefore governments must invest in the well-being and social integration of families.

Jacobsen: What are some of the parts of nature and types of ancient traditions one can find in Molise?

Palladino: Molise shows a rich heritage of traditional festivals that highlight ancient and religious values and a deep cultural identity. There are the WWF Nature Reserve Guardiaregia-Campochiaro, the oasis The Mortine, the LIPU reserve Casacalenda, the Matese, the botanical garden Capracotta, the reserve Collemeluccio.
Lucky people may have the chance to see wild animals as the brown bears, deers, chamois, wolves.

Jacobsen: How does a naturalness, an acceptance one’s true self and nature, lead to a more fulfilling life, knowing “that I am what I am, simply”?

Palladino: The pursuit of self knowledge, key element in Socrates philosophy is: γνώθι σαυτόν. It is inscribed over the portico at Apollo’s Temple at Delphi. It is the fundamental undertakings of psychology. Everybody has a hidden part of the Universe’s truth inside the mind.

Jacobsen: As a medical doctor, what were the inspirations for each text: “Il diario del Martedì, Un mondo altro, La Morte delle Afroditi bionde and Persone e lacrime”? Because I like the combination of M.D. plus writer. I may, or may not, be biased towards writers, dear Veronica.

Palladino: Il diario del Martedì is a research about being who you want to be. Un mondo altro is a novel based on fantasy, love of literature and personal growth. La Morte delle Afroditi bionde is a book that centers on a series of mysterious murders. What it looks like is not. Finally Persone e lacrime is a collection of poems. Poems are particles of oxygen that caress my lungs and ignite my synapses.

Jacobsen: What happens when the I.Q. scores are taken too seriously?

Palladino: I.Q. tests are good ways to improve thinking, mental power and ability but tests are not scientifically validated parameters for definition of intelligence. It is only a start point of orientation.

Jacobsen: Of those individuals self-promoting at various levels, most are men in the high-I.Q. communities. Why?

Palladino: I do not know why but women’s IQ scores are extraordinary. I know brilliant and precious women’s minds. I hope greater consideration of their skill and professional ability will be the prevalent situation in the future.

Women (My poem for women)

Wicked fibers

Intertwine in the pulsating core of the world.

Kaleidoscopic faces and cutouts of figures they result

From algorithms

Apparently indecipherable.

Bigots, puritans, prostitutes, rebels,

guilty, wagtails, nightingales, innocents.

Beauty crashes into the minds eager

To possess her and imprison her but not it bends,

advances and expands in

sincere heart that gives passion and rejects servility.

Strength is not sapped

By humiliations

Of the mephitic crapula.

Women, spirits drunk with

Burning emotion.

Women, lovable profile e vibrant with existence.

Women pure and abundant

Source of new

Life.

Jacobsen: Was the friend discovered as similarly gifted when testing around 20?

Palladino: No, but it was a good experience.

Jacobsen: Do you consider yourself a genius?

Palladino: Absolutely no. I love knowledge but there is nothing of a genius in me.

Jacobsen: In some manner, are the factors involved in genius in interaction with the wider world too manifold to make precise or even generic predictions about who, when, and what will be recognized as such, e.g., a person of genius, a period of genius, or a discovery or creation of genius? Terence Tao seems like a person who was known since a young age for prodigious mathematical talents and who, unlike others who went off the tracks, became highly successful.

Palladino: There must be a time, a place, an urgency, a convergence of factors that affect the birth of genius. Literary genius is a multi-layered aptitude that consists of many unique cognitive, affective, perceptual, motivational, interpersonal, and state-dependent attributes, including the challenging of orthodox thinking, fertility of ideas, compulsive discipline and hard work, tolerance of ambiguity, innocence of perception, immersion in the present moment, intellectual diversity, an internal locus of evaluation, and sensitivity to nuances.

Jacobsen: Maybe, the uniqueness of each genius, e.g., “Bohr, Leibniz, Goethe, Bach, Ramanujan, Wittgenstein, Aeschylus,” makes comparison or ranking necessarily moot. I don’t know. While, at the same time, do you think common themes might mark them? Something educational in an attempt at drawing threads through times and cultures, and minds. Cooijmans likes to point to a particular creative capacity in factors, for example.

Palladino: Creativity is a common factor to genial talents certainly. A genius is a curious, stubborn, reckless discoverer of diversity.

Jacobsen: Which genius best exemplifies strength to you?

Palladino: Rosalind Franklin.

Jacobsen: Which genius best exemplifies determination to you?

Palladino: Marie Curie.

Jacobsen: Which genius best exemplifies creativity to you?

Palladino: Leonardo da Vinci.

Jacobsen: Which genius best exemplifies originality to you?

Palladino: Rita Levi Montalcini.

Jacobsen: Which genius best exemplifies innovation to you?

Palladino: Barbara McClintock.

Jacobsen: How is the medical system in Italy compared to other Western European nations? How is this compared to societies with much different values and preferences, e.g., the United States?

Palladino: The medical culture provided by the Italian study system is undoubtedly valid and comprehensive of all important aspects but there are problems relating to job’s organization so young doctors decide to work abroad sometimes.

Jacobsen: Do you have reasonable working hours as a resident to balance writing endeavours and medicine?

Palladino: Unfortunately I don’t have much time to combine my two natures and I have stopped writing novels.

Jacobsen: How helpful is the idea of neurodiversity to place a positive emphasis on differences in aptitudes and outputs of someone’s neurology?

Palladino: Neurodiversity is a power inside every person, a light of special trait that opens every own path. Lack of awareness, and lack of appropriate infrastructure (such as office setup or staffing structures) can cause exclusion of people with neurodevelopmental differences. Understanding and embracing neurodiversity in communities, schools, healthcare settings, and workplaces can improve inclusivity for all people. It is important for all of us to foster an environment that is conducive to neurodiversity, and to recognize and emphasize each person’s individual strengths and talents while also providing support for their differences and needs.

Jacobsen: This ineffable quality, is this more an intuitive sense of the Divine rather than a rational enquiry into the state of nature? This seems like a common theme amongst highly intelligent individuals who adhere to a belief in transcendental sentiments and structures beyond the senses and analytical, when I discourse with them. Something incredibly profound, personal, and rock bottom true. An instinct of something that can’t not be; where, God simply, purely, exists as ontic universality, as the ground of Being, of Good, of Love, of Justice, of Beauty, of a means by which reality coheres and in which reality remains inhered with – God, of all that is, was, and will be, to them.

Palladino: Religious faith and science cannot be merged. They are two wonderful dimensions, parallel but not confusing.

Jacobsen: When does our science simply not have the answers that matter to us?

Palladino: Until a new genius will find the right answers.

Jacobsen: How do you cope with knowing some unknown number of patients will die with you, around you?

Palladino: “Everyone must leave something behind when he dies, my grandfather said. A child or a book or a painting or a house or a wall built of a pair of shoes made. Or a garden planted. Something your hand touches some way so your soul has somewhere to go when you die, and when people look at that tree or that flower you planted, you’re there.”~ Ray Bradbury, Fahrenheit 451. Death is the last point of life and we have to accept it.

Nothing is lost, nothing is created, everything is transformed E+S⇄ ES→ E+P

Jacobsen: How do physicians translate innovations in science into ethical practice mentioned in commentary of Weinstein and Stehr?

Palladino: Innovative practice occurs when a clinician provides something new, untested, or nonstandard in the course of clinical care. Weinstein, Jay and Nico Stehr wrote “The power of knowledge: race science, race policy, and the Holocaust,”Social Epistemology” The authors take a comparative and historical perspective and refer to well-known theoretical frameworks, These cases cover a number of countries and different time periods. They see a close link between ‘knowledge producers’ and political decision-makers, but show that the effectiveness of the policies varies dramatically.

Jacobsen: Is Italy working towards integration ethics and politics with “environmentalism”? What obligations and responsibilities come with the rights and privileges of human beings living in society and living in nature as part of Nature?

Palladino: The key environmental legislation is the Environmental Consolidated Act (Norme in materia ambientale or Codice dell’Ambiente) (Legislative Decree no 152/2006). The state has exclusive competence in environmental regulation (Italian Constitution). The principal national authority is the Ministry of Ecological Transition (Ministero della Transizione Ecologica) (MET) (formerly the Ministry of the Environment and Protection of Land and Sea (Ministero dell’Ambiente e della Tutela del Territorio e del Mare) (Law Decree no 22/2021 converted into law no 55/2021.The regime pays particular attention to projects and activities that: 1Could directly impact the environment. 2 Affect the quality of life and conservation of species and natural habitats. 3Affect the biodiversity of the environment.

Nature is around and inside people. Nature is our mouths, our lungs, our eyes. We can not kill ourselves.

Jacobsen: Sometimes, even often, there can be statements and proposals by the Roman Catholic hierarchy, while, simultaneously, by and large, an ignoring of these by the laity. It may be different in Italian society than, for example, Canadian society. However, these differences can create confusion about the investment of authority within the minds of the hierarchs and the various cultures of the laity. With values inclusive of “life and dignity of the human person, solidarity, subsidiarity and respect,” is it the conscience of the individual believer, various hierarchs of the Church, or something else, in which the authority for ultimate moral decision-making must be held to account within Catholicism?

Palladino: Each doctrine has interpretative differences especially considering the cultural, environmental and social aspects that characterize nations, however the founding pillars of Catholicism always remain the same. The foundations or pillars of an authentic Catholic life are summarized in the traditional four pillars of Catholic catechisms: faith, liturgy/sacraments, life in Christ, and prayer.

Jacobsen: You spoke of the principles of Catholicism. What about the doctrines and warnings in Catholicism, e.g., belief in the Devil in the former and warnings against association with/involvement in freemasonry? Do these come into personal consideration for personal living, too?

Palladino: Faith must be a reason of improvement, growth and resolution. Honesty, sincerity, humility, acceptance of one’s limits, kindness and fairness are the principles I follow. Freemasonry is a distorted concept of cohesion and I disagree.

Footnotes

[1] Medical Doctor; Co-Champion, LexIQ Contest; Full Member, CHIN; Member, Leviathan;Member, The One Society; Member, Hochste IQ Society; Member, Profundus Society; Member, Synaptiq Society; Member, WGD; Member, Gifted High IQ Network; Prospective Member, Sidis Society; Full Member of other High-I.Q. Societies; Author: “Il diario del Martedì” (2008), “Un mondo altro” (2009), “La Morte delle Afroditi bionde” (2019) and “Persone e lacrime” (poems) (2018).

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/palladino-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Veronica Palladino, M.D. on Family, Molise, Naturalness, Women, and Religious Faith: Member, Glia Society (2)[Online]. July 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/palladino-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6^th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 15). Conversation with Veronica Palladino, M.D. on Family, Molise, Naturalness, Women, and Religious Faith: Member, Glia Society (2). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/palladino-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Veronica Palladino, M.D. on Family, Molise, Naturalness, Women, and Religious Faith: Member, Glia Society (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/palladino-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. Conversation with Veronica Palladino, M.D. on Family, Molise, Naturalness, Women, and Religious Faith: Member, Glia Society (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/palladino-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Veronica Palladino, M.D. on Family, Molise, Naturalness, Women, and Religious Faith: Member, Glia Society (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/palladino-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Veronica Palladino, M.D. on Family, Molise, Naturalness, Women, and Religious Faith: Member, Glia Society (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/palladino-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Veronica Palladino, M.D. on Family, Molise, Naturalness, Women, and Religious Faith: Member, Glia Society (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/palladino-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7^thEdition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Veronica Palladino, M.D. on Family, Molise, Naturalness, Women, and Religious Faith: Member, Glia Society (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A(2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/palladino-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Veronica Palladino, M.D. on Family, Molise, Naturalness, Women, and Religious Faith: Member, Glia Society (2)[Internet]. (2022, July 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/palladino-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-07-08

Chinese High-I.Q. Group Discussion 1: Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值), Craft Xia, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on China and Its Culture

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.D, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,671

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) is the Founder & President of God’s Power Society & The Chosen One High IQ Society and the author of the Mystery Intelligence Test. Craft Xia is the Founder of CHIN. Tianxi Yu (余天曦) is a Member of God’s Power Society. They discuss: China; Chinese civilization; the historical context of education in Chinese society; the foundational Chinese philosophies; modern Chinese civilization; and the high-I.Q. community changed over time in China.

Keywords: Buddhism, CHIN, China, Chinese, Confucianism, Confucius, Craft Xia, culture, Fengzhi Wu, Flynn effect, God’s Power Society, Legalism, Ming Dynasties, Mohism, Mystery Intelligence Test, Shenghan, Tianxi Yu, Taoism, The Core Socialist Values, Wang Fuzhi, Yellow River Valley, Zen.

Chinese High-I.Q. Group Discussion 1: Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值), Craft Xia, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on China and Its Culture

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start on the purpose of this group discussion, the idea is a Chinese high-I.Q. community discussion because, as far as I can tell, the voices coming out in the high-I.Q. communities tend to emphasize North American and Western European with an emphasis on particular cultural outputs. Chinese culture has a long legacy of invention, art, etc. Its modern rise will continue to ripple in a multipolar world, so rounding out the perspective in this globalized context makes sense to me. Hence, the idea of getting some wider range of individuals. China has the largest footprint in most ways, clearly, amongst East Asian nation-states: China, Hong Kong, Japan, Macau, Mongolia, North Korea, South Korea, and Taiwan. So, here we are, with three members of the high-I.Q. communities coming out of China, Fengzhi Wu, Craft Xia, and Tianxi Yu, what does China mean to you?

Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值)[1]*: I grew up in China and have always been proud to be Chinese, as well as admire the people, history, and culture of this country. I am optimistic about the future of my country and future generations.

Craft Xia[2]*: China is my motherland and the country where I have a sense of belonging. At the same time, it also plays a guiding role in my ideological and cultural concepts.

Tianxi Yu (余天曦)[3],[4]*: China to me is my homeland, the place where I was born. Of course, Taiwan, Hong Kong and Macau are also part of China.

Jacobsen: The Yellow River Valley appears to be the origin of Chinese civilization, which means a beginning around 5,000 B.C.E. Although, formal written records and dynasties began much later, e.g., the Xia dynasty (2070–1600 B.C.), then the Shang dynasty (1600–1046 B.C.), and so on. What seem like the attributes of Chinese culture leading to this extensive history and consistent civilizational existence? Most civilizations do not last this long.

Wu: I believe that one of the reasons Chinese culture has survived for over five millennia is through inheritance, which includes blood inheritance, value inheritance, and philosophical inheritance. Blood inheritance means that the Chinese valued family ties and blood relations, which extended to relationships with friends, the community, and eventually the country. Traditional Chinese values and philosophy are highly respected by people in China. Chinese culture holds a wealth of spiritual values that have not changed over time and can still benefit people today. There is harmony, benevolence, righteousness, courtesy, wisdom, honesty, loyalty, and filial piety. Even though we are now heavily influenced by globalization and modernization, the Chinese continue to value traditional culture and keep preserving it, while also attempting to assemble traditional culture and new culture in “harmony.”

Xia: East Asia, the birthplace of the Chinese nation, has an excellent agricultural environment, a geographical space with great development potential, and is relatively closed without losing access to foreign exchanges, which are the objective conditions for the sustainable development of the Chinese nation.

Egypt and the two river basins, which are almost open environments, are close to the African continent, the birthplace of human beings. Groups of humans continue to pass by them, and other civilizations developed along the Mediterranean can easily attack them.

The geographical environment of ancient India, located in South Asia, is also relatively closed, but a small Khyber Pass, which opens to the west, has allowed the continuous influx of external conquerors to conquer India again and again.

The geographical environment gave the early Chinese civilization sufficient time to develop. The cultural core brewed on this basis allowed us not to be wiped out and eroded by foreign nations (foreign cultures) when science and technology and force were weak. The continuous development of Chinese civilization for five thousand years is the result of the joint cooperation of objective geographical factors and subjective cultural factors.

Yu: China’s unique geography is an important reason why its civilization was not invaded by other civilizations. Other ancient civilizations were built on relatively homogeneous water systems and plains, and geographically lacked natural barriers to protect their cultures, which fractured once foreign cultures invaded.

Jacobsen: What has been the historical context of education in Chinese society? Its importance and emphasis with the society.

Wu: The traditional education context in China is to provide equitable and high-quality education. Chinese students are well-known for having extensive theoretical knowledge. In recent years, the government and society have worked hard to ensure that students develop holistically in cognition, body, emotion, and morality. As a result, people with a Chinese educational background now not only have solid theoretical knowledge but also innovative thinking and practical ability, which help to achieve themselves and even create values for our country and society. As far as I know, Chinese education has always followed the principle of teaching students based on their aptitude. It is encouraging that nowadays more and more parents and teachers are trying to build learning on students’ strengths and interests.

Xia: Social education in China can be divided into three stages.

The first stage: the difficult exploration stage (1949-1980)

As early as in the base area period, the Communist Party of China paid more attention to social education. After the founding of new China, the government began to carry out literacy and literacy education and cultural education for workers, farmers and other groups, which not only effectively improved the cultural quality of the masses, but also gave an unprecedented collective life and collective concept to China’s grass-roots society, which has been in the family or clan standard for a long time and lacks “collective consciousness”. Social education is gradually showing the characteristics of openness and socialization.

The second stage: wave rising stage (1980-2000)

As China shifted from a planned economy to a market economy, social education in China developed rapidly in the 1990s, and local education departments also issued policies one after another.

Stage III: stable development stage (since 2000)

From the background of modern Chinese society and history of “being a new people” and “arousing the people”, China’s social education has established a new pattern of diversified education development. The theme of education highlights the popularization and inclusiveness, the education service platform is stronger, the policies and basic organizations of social education have been established, and everything is prosperous.

Yu: Imperial examination system. The fastest way to complete the screening of the state apparatus.

Jacobsen: What are considered – within Chinese culture – the foundational Chinese philosophies?

Wu: In ancient China, the main philosophies were Confucianism, Taoism, Mohism, Legalism, and Buddhism, particularly Confucianism, Buddhism, and Taoism, which continued to influence the Chinese even throughout the East Asian region. The book of Changes and Lao Zhuang are central to the Chinese people’s worldview, and Confucius and Mencius’s theories represent the ethical social outlook of the Chinese. Buddhists, on the other hand, promote the idealism of common causes and help each other with Confucianism and Taoism.

Xia: The thoughts of Confucianism and Taoism basically run through the development of the whole history of Chinese philosophy, and they are in a state of one after another. After Buddhism was introduced into China in the Han Dynasty, after the late Eastern Han Dynasty, the development of Sinicization in the two Jin and southern and Northern Dynasties formed a tripartite confrontation with Confucianism and Taoism, and even prevailed over Confucianism and Taoism for a time. At the end of the development of Buddhism, Zen has the greatest influence and the most successful localization in China. In a sense, Zen is the result of the integration of Confucianism, Buddhism and Taoism. At the same time, Zen is also the source of Taoism in song and Ming Dynasties. In the song and Ming Dynasties, in addition to the struggle between Neo Confucianism and psychology in the main line, there was also the criticism of “Qi based theory” materialism on Taoism. Finally, Wang Fuzhi summarized the ideological achievements of his predecessors, reaching the peak of ancient Chinese philosophy.

Yu: Confucianism.

Jacobsen: What values guide modern Chinese civilization?

Wu: I believe the most important values guiding modern Chinese are known as The Core Socialist Values, which include national values, social values, and individual values. National values include “prosperity”, “democracy”, “civilization” and “harmony”; Social values include “freedom”, “equality”, “justice” and the “rule of law”; And personal values include “patriotism”, “dedication”, “honesty” and “friendship”.

Xia: Prosperity, democracy, civilization, harmony, freedom, equality, justice, rule of law, patriotism, professionalism, integrity, and friendliness. Its specific content mainly includes the guiding ideology of Marxism and the common ideal of socialism with Chinese characteristics.

Yu: “Socialist core values,” lol.

Jacobsen: How has the high-I.Q. community changed over time in China?

Wu: Since the invention of intelligence tests about 100 years ago, human IQ test results have been steadily increasing; this phenomenon is called the Flynn effect. For example, a person with an average IQ today might be considered a genius in 1919. As far as I know, the high IQ community in China has remained virtually unchanged over time. It could be because intelligence tests have only recently become popular among Chinese people, the time is too short to get many people to participate in the tests, resulting in insufficient statistical data. By the way, it’s ironic that children in China are only sent to the hospital for an “intelligence test” if their parents suspect them of having “ADHD.”

Xia: The earliest is the hundreds of people in Mensa China and some online communities in China more than a decade ago. Then after the establishment of Shenghan club, China’s intellectual community began to grow rapidly, including club organizations such as GFIS, which gradually appeared in the public eye and interacted with variety TV programs.

Yu: It was Mensa China and Shenghan that started this organization, and then GFIS emerged to formalize the Chinese high IQ community. My next step is to have some high IQ societies to lead the high IQ community in China, can be accepted by the country and become more elite, not just an “interest group”.

Footnotes

[1] Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) is the Founder & President of the God’s Power Society & The Chosen One High IQ Society, the Author of the Mystery Intelligence Test, and a Member of Nano Society, EsoterIQ Society, 6G High IQ Society, GIGA Society (formerly Giga Society 190, and earlier United Giga Society), The Core IQ Society, The POINT Society, NOUS High IQ Society, Sidis Society, and Relic Society (遗迹).

[2] Craft Xia is the Founder is the Founder of CHIN.

[3] Tianxi Yu (余天曦) is a Member of God’s Power, CatholIQ, Chinese Genius Directory, EsoterIQ Society, Nano Society, and World Genius Directory, and GIGA Society (formerly Giga Society 190, and earlier United Giga Society).

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/chinese-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Chinese High-I.Q. Group Discussion 1: Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值), Craft Xia, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on China and Its Culture[Online]. July 2022; 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/chinese-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 8). Chinese High-I.Q. Group Discussion 1: Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值), Craft Xia, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on China and Its Culture. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/chinese-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Chinese High-I.Q. Group Discussion 1: Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值), Craft Xia, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on China and Its Culture. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/chinese-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Chinese High-I.Q. Group Discussion 1: Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值), Craft Xia, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on China and Its Culture.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/chinese-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Chinese High-I.Q. Group Discussion 1: Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值), Craft Xia, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on China and Its Culture.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/chinese-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Chinese High-I.Q. Group Discussion 1: Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值), Craft Xia, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on China and Its Culture’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/chinese-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Chinese High-I.Q. Group Discussion 1: Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值), Craft Xia, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on China and Its Culture’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/chinese-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Chinese High-I.Q. Group Discussion 1: Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值), Craft Xia, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on China and Its Culture.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.D (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/chinese-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Chinese High-I.Q. Group Discussion 1: Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值), Craft Xia, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on China and Its Culture[Internet]. (2022, July 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/chinese-1.

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2022-07-08

Conversation with Scott Durgin on Patriarchal Institutions, Roman Catholicism, and the United States’ Freedoms: Member, Giga Society (3)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,924

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Scott Durgin is a Member of the Giga Society. He discusses: laws and policies enacted through sociopolitical attitudes; other post-colonial states; Protestants and Roman Catholics; women’s bodies; Dominionists; magical thinking; free expression and religious freedom; the right in American society; and closet Christians and cultural Christians.

Keywords: Carl Sagan, Catholic Church, Neil deGrasse Tyson, post-colonial states, Scott Durgin, SCOTUS.

Conversation with Scott Durgin on Patriarchal Institutions, Roman Catholicism, and the United States’ Freedoms: Member, Giga Society (3)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*One interpolated addition on July 4, 2022, explicitly noted in the text.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Critical thinking arises in a number of educational contexts. What is “critical thinking” in the context of learning?

Scott Durgin[1],[2]*: I don’t think it’s possible to define critical thinking without going on for pages and pages. Critical thinking “in the context of learning” would not be too far different than the definition of critical thinking itself. What I could do is identify what I think are the cognitive skills or mental abilities involved in critical thinking. I’m sure most of this has been written elsewhere but at least four or five skills come to mind

Interpretation
Evaluation or examination.
Analysis
Inference and
Self regulation, possibly the most important.

These particular skill sets must be coupled with a healthy sense of curiosity…to question without fear…to use REASON as the ultimate pathway to exercise critical thinking and arrive at the truth. That curiosity would force one to observe as many things as possible, to engage others, to read very deeply into many things, but also very broadly. Above all things to grow, so that one’s skills and capabilities improve with time. This seems to be a most relevant way to tie critical thinking to learning.

Jacobsen: How does critical thinking work in the real world, i.e., outside the confines of the academic system?

Durgin: Good question. I can honestly say that my abilities at critical thinking did not mature until after I had already learned how to learn. And learning how to learn cannot be done thoroughly without an academic experience: to change, modify, evolve and revolutionize one’s thinking.

Jacobsen: What is Carl Sagan’s legacy?

Durgin: Heroically and elegantly bringing scientific thinking to a popular audience.

Jacobsen: Why promote The Demon Haunted World above other texts on critical thinking and a scientific, skeptical mindset?

Durgin: Because this one book, read thoroughly perhaps twice perhaps 10 times, is all that is necessary to understand the basics of reason and critical thinking.

Jacobsen: Sagan is dead. Who took on the legacy of him, the mantle?

Durgin: I can’t say that for sure. I can tell you that I like a great many thinkers in the field. Neil deGrasse Tyson is probably my favorite. Just boundless energy, incisively argumentative and affably entertaining. Bill Nye, excellent individual. Richard Dawkins Christopher Hitchens many others.

Jacobsen: Neil deGrasse Tyson has an amazing personal history, individual story, with Carl Sagan, as a youngster. How has Sagan, through his legacy, created a buttress against pseudoscience, religious fundamentalism, and the irrational?

Durgin: It’s actually not much of a buttress with people who are on the wrong side of science and politics and religion. In the United States we spend a pittance of public money on science and education compared to what we spend on other things. We live in a country where most religious people believe it is their duty to stop others from doing things that the religious people dislike. They are clueless as to how the Constitution automatically stops them. They basically plug their ears, drag their small dicks into their huge monster trucks and just drive over anybody who tries to educate them.

Jacobsen: How did the Roman Catholic Church love Hitler?

Durgin: How did they not? The papacy basically trained all their followers to be abjectly terrified of Bolshevism Marxism and communism. How this ramped up after World War II with the Dulles brothers in this country and many others is remarkable. Fascism, which the church is very much akin to living as a philosophy, was completely ignored. Hitler had free reign mostly. The only reason why the papacy and the Catholic Church feared and opposed Hitler was because he began shutting down certain areas of the Catholic Church. When it came to slaughtering Jews, Freemasons, protestants, orthodox Christians and Serbs; the Catholic Church adopted a deafening silence. Their concordat with Hitler occurred only months after Hitler gained significant power in 1933. He of course gained ultimate power by 1934 when Hindenburg died. Pope Pius the 12th literally kept secret Hitler’s plans to invade Poland who ironically had a shit ton of Catholics in that country. The pope likely agonized over the decision knowing what Hitler was going to do but unable to inform even his followers. He knew however that the survival of the supremacy of the Catholic Church was more important than a few tens of thousands of Catholics dying.

Jacobsen: How did the Roman Catholic Church love Stalin?

Durgin: They didn’t love Stalin but they were certainly able to tolerate him…he killed more Jews than Hitler and simply by being an autocrat (as stated before) allowed the church a piece of mind. Who cares about Stalin when they were very few Catholics in the country?

Jacobsen: What about Mussolini, Franco, Perron, etc.?

Durgin: Again same argument. Details are unnecessary here; the fact that they are Autocrats, authoritarians, dictators means that international and sovereign states like the Catholic Church have any easy time with diplomacy. Deal with one man and you help steer the course of the entire country. Mussolini was a really special kind of ignoramus. Utter fascist patriarchal fuckstick of a dictator.

Jacobsen: Why focus on the small hierarchy, the elites, rather than the priests or laity? I interviewed Fr. George Coyne, at one time, and was supposed to do a second interview prior to his death (who went into surgery and, presumably, never came out alive, which became an important lesson left for me; his last great gift to me). He was somewhat liberal minded as a Christian and oriented towards a scientifically educated perspective, particularly astrophysics.

Durgin: The hierarchy is the problem. Just a few hundred backward thinking men set atop the organization (did I mention the holy see is a sovereign state?). They are the problem, so I adopt a similar approach to dealing with an issue as the Catholic Church does. It clearly has worked for them over 1500 years. Anybody attempting to deal with a serpent or dragon focuses on the head. Only stands to reason.

Jacobsen: How does a majoritarian rule buffer against Holy See intrusion in political affairs?

Durgin: When the government is owned by the people (all the people not just some), whose law is codified in a constitution it doesn’t matter if 99% of the people in the country are converted to Catholicism. Including the senators and representatives and the justices. The constitution is not a religious document. A constitutional “majoritarian” democratic republic is protected by the Constitution, because eliminating all religious opponents does not change the fact that the Constitution protects all religions. The constitution is our law; not what the president says or what congressmen say or what judges say…there can be no authoritarian in a country where the constitution is the law. So no matter how many heads of state the Vatican attempts to have assassinated, it doesn’t change the Constitution. This likely pisses them off to no end which is why they have taken decades upon decades in an attempt to infiltrate the Supreme Court, which they appear to be successfully doing.

Jacobsen: With the American example, what are the clearcut examples of the Roman Catholic Church, and its empowered representatives in institutional positions of power in the United States of America, attempting to undermine American democracy?

Durgin: Five Supreme Court justices who seem to think that the constitution does not grant freedoms unless they are specifically called out in the constitution. Which is a ridiculously ignorant way of looking at it. If all the freedoms that we have needed to be enumerated in the constitution it would be 10 miles thick. This is why Madison and Jefferson and others took more than 30 years to perfect certain ideas like a separation of church and state. But somehow justices Alito, Gorsuch and Kavanaugh, the flip-flopping bone-headed Clarence Thomas, and the newly seated, starry eyed ignorant Amy Coney Barrett are completely ignorant of this fact when they allow a woman’s right to (reproductive) freedom to fall back on a bunch of Bible Belt, ignorantly run states, who are hell-bent on pretending they’re protecting a fetus while they stomp all over the fundamental right the woman has in the first place. How’s that for an opinion. Richard Dawkins believes that this latest decision by Scotus is nothing more than an attempt to allow religion to once again control the freedoms of Americans. I tend to agree. I am especially disappointed in John Roberts.

*Beginning of Addition: 4th July 2022*

This recent uber-focus on Roe v. Wade decision completely obscured my awareness of an equally devastating Scotus decision a few days earlier. This involves church state separation, against which the Catholic Church has been resisting, fighting, complaining, obstructing, seething, spitting and farting and twisting in their seats for decades.

Some clever Jesuits (who have obviously been pushing the five Scotus conservatives) have been effective at allowing to proliferate an inferior and surreptitiously deceptive interpretation of what church state separation means.

Nearly the entire motivation for Jefferson and Madison to spend 30 fucking years evolving and perfecting the precept of church state separation was to prevent emboldening the Catholic Church from imagining they could dominate civil life because they have a majority of people in the country who are Catholic.

The reality is public funds CANNOT BE USED to support or endorse a particular religious organization. Not on my constitutional watch. Public funds meaning government funds, like subsidies for schools etc.

The only way for every religion in the country to be protected is to make sure that ALL FORMS OF GOVERNMENT REMAIN RELIGIOUSLY NEUTRAL. There should be no argument here. But this falls on purposely deaf ears with John Roberts, Samuel Alito, Neil Gorsuch, Brett Kavanaugh and the starry eyed naïve ignorant Amy Coney Barrett, not to mention Hammerhead Clarence Thomas. John Roberts cleverly obfuscated the issue when he opined on the case in the state of Maine: “there is nothing neutral here in what Maine is doing” (paraphrased, not exact quote), as if to suggest that the church state separation concept is supposed to mean general neutrality**, when it is not! It means RELIGIOUS neutrality, thus 365+ different religions must be represented and supported if public money is going to be used. The public consists of ALL RELIGIONS including no religion, and therefore public money must be either

Supporting/ endorsing every single religion on the face of the earth or
Endorsing none.

The impracticality of the former is obvious. Eleanor Roosevelt fought Cardinal Spellman on this in the 1940s. Spellman lost, thank god. Move on. Government must stay out of funding particular religious organizations. The Bill of Rights demand it. Freedom demands it. Public funds do not belong supporting a religious school. This is also why we cannot have Jesus’s words on state property, because state property is PUBLIC property. Public property (government property) may not endorse any one religion, this is ninth grade civics every one should know. Religion is a private matter. This is the essence of the separation of church and state. It protects minorities from being overrun by religious majorities who believe it is their duty to convert the entire world. This country was founded to stop that nonsense. In fact it was founded in the bloody wake of the Catholic Church exercising for CENTURIES what it believed to be its “divine” authority to convert the world, by killing, raping, burning, marginalizing, exorcising every person who expressed religious beliefs other than Catholic beliefs.

The church needed to be stopped and they’ve been PISSED OFF ever since. Too bad. They don’t like religion being a private matter of opinion, equal to all others. Again, too bad. This is a free country where people are free to worship however they want and no one would feel free or be free if public money or official funds supported Hindu schools or Muslim schools any more than Christian schools.

Now this country is upside down because of ignorance and outright malice spewing forth from five conservative justices who are ANGRY this country is moving forward – PROGRESSING – and they are attempting to swing the country backward by 100 years or more because they are uncomfortable with their Christian majority WANING. And somehow they believe that because there is a Christian majority citizenry that religious freedom doesn’t work.

Third time: Too bad.

We need everybody in this country to forcibly stop this politically and clearly religiously biased gang within the supreme court from deciding on any other important rule of law. The gang of 5 plus Roberts is now an utter waste of public trust. Period.

** Roberts is deftly claiming that public funds should be granted to both religious and non-religious schools (pretending that this means “neutral”) thus completely evading the central issue of religious neutrality. PUBLIC INSTITUTIONS MUST BE RELIGIOUSLY NEUTRAL.

Roberts can now get on with either forced retirement or recusal for this wanton ignorance or wanton deception. Pick one.

*End of Addition: 4th July 2022*

Jacobsen: I’ve interviewed a number of prominent African-American freethinkers in the United States – real leaders – about their involvement in combatting Christian supremacy in the United States, particularly apt for them in consideration of the white supremacist orientation of history and patterns of aspects of Christianity, including Roman Catholicism. Christian European-Americans’ construction of institutions for the maintenance of authority over African-Americans in general. Those legacy European-Americans with autocratic Christianity in their minds who may buy into “Great Replacement Theory” and such, so as to express their sense of unipolar focus on “white” myths, Christian theology, and truly grounded in fear of the “Other.” Those who unknowingly proclaim lies boldly, belying individuals cowered into a corner and lashing out in terror. What is the association – not the core or the only, obviously – between white supremacy, i.e., laws and policies enacted through sociopolitical attitudes, and Roman Catholicism in the United States?

Durgin: Privileged, domineering, white patriarchal bigotry. These people knowingly and willingly want to take the United States back to the 1950s. Pretty clear.

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, how does this look in other post-colonial states with a majority, or near majority, Christian identifying population, i.e., New Zealand, Australia, Canada, and South Africa?

Durgin: If they have a constitution that separates church and state then they should not be having a problem. Unfortunately the interpretation of separation of church and state is 100% lost on a lot of religious people in this country. I do not know how tightly religious freedom is coupled to the law of the land in other countries.

Jacobsen: How are Protestants and Roman Catholics, ideologically, converging on making Christian an official identity of nationality in the United States now?

Durgin: The next 10 years will answer this question. We are now in an era where only 10 years will almost exactly parallel how Hitler came to power in Germany. My opinion.

Jacobsen: I’ve made some observations as to women’s bodies as the true point of battleground for the fundamentalist Christians in the United States of America. To me, it seems as though the aim is the restriction of women’s choices about their destinies starting with reproduction. With Roe v Wade as a news item, recently, what makes this particularly poignant about attempts at intrusion of Roman Catholic dogma about when life starts, women’s bodies, and legislation focusing on these items impactful on women’s bodies, so fates?

Durgin: What makes this particularly poignant is that they are succeeding.

Jacobsen: You used the term Dominionists. A religious ideology, Dominionism, founded on Genesis 1:28 (KJV). A passage about dominion over the Earth by earthly, Christian forces. This transcendentally awful (im)moral basis for American centralized theonomy makes for open declarations, based on religious scripture, of the merger of religion and state rather than the separation of religious institutions and states. It means, in essence, a declaration for theocratic globalism, which means theocratic autocracy (as in singular domineering control) rather than democratic multicultural universalism (or the basis of most respected international human rights and associated organizations and institutions). Who are the main framers of Dominionist theology in America? Why is America an apparent central focus on these individuals now?

Durgin: I don’t know. What I highly suspect is that the 2030s will see a stupendous push on the part of the right wing in many countries to co-opt both the meaning and the implementation of the building of the so-called “third temple” in Jerusalem. Easter of 2034 will be the beginning of it if not a little before. October 2041 will likely be its culmination. I honestly don’t know how the intervening years will play out because I do believe there are genuinely naïve and beneficial forces who will be involved in building such a temple; but the right wing will have none of this (unless it is 100% Christian, by God!), so if the right wing January 6 fascists build up like Hitler did, between now and 2030, they may have the ability to co-opt the effort.

Jacobsen: Also, back to critical thinking, these institutions remain built on magical thinking over centuries molded into institutions used for social influence, political power, and legislative entrenchment. How is the magical thinking without challenge a basis for the snowball effects, as with the Roman Catholic Church, over decades in countries and over centuries in spheres of influence?

Durgin: Not sure how to answer that, but if this country spent more money on science and education in the public sphere, we would be much better off and unlikely to fall into a hole. The entire public needs to be vested in scientific thinking, scientific methods and scientific conclusions, which means there needs to be a tenfold increase in spending on education, science, mathematics and perhaps constitutional freedom and the three masonic pillars (at least politically in this country): 1. The emancipation of women. 2. Limits on state power. 3. Separation of church and state. Those three things are anathema to the Catholic Church.

Jacobsen: When I interviewed some members of The Satanic Temple, two noted Evangelical Christians in the United States, if they don’t get precisely what they want 100% of the time, then they cry, as you note, “Victim.” Roman Catholics, based on the statement by you, make the same play as victims. The irony: individuals who deplore victim-ology or victimhood in other ideologies enacting the same, as in a pervasive projection of their own psychology, rather than an identification of a necessary cultural reality. Akin to cancel culture proclamations, with temporary, at times, actualizations in some professionals, they forget the centuries of history of real cancel culture in Christianity with book burning, book banning, torture, murders, and the like, in the name of Jesus Christ and the Kingdom of God as proclaimed by Christianity. The most pervasive, long-lasting, cruel, violent, and vicious cancel culture has come from religious fundamentalists with the mastery of torture and destruction of free expression. Again, it seems a simple act of projection. Even if admitted, it becomes softened, as in, ‘It happened a long time ago,’ as if light acceptance of ubiquitous history means absolution of the crimes in the name of Christianity. In many ways, in further irony, their purported fears and decline could be seen theologically as an inverse ROI, or return on investment, of all the imprecations (e.g., imprecatory prayers) against others not them. (Why not get the message? Their God is punching them in the face and kicking them in the nuts, constantly.) How are American rights to free expression and religious freedom a counter to this history of Christian imposition?

Durgin: Projection is exactly right. But…In this country the Constitution guarantees that every individual is a sovereign regarding his/her choice of worship, belief in God or an afterlife and his/her autonomous freedom to exercise such beliefs, as long as he/she does not attempt to remove the sovereignty of another citizen.

Jacobsen: Why are some individuals who support Trump bound to the idea of a stolen election and the era of the 1950s? Why the attempts to make a “safe space” for them through the entire nation rather than simply their longstanding “safe spaces” in churches, in cathedrals, in Klan meetings for some, or in whole universities with Christian private postsecondary institutions? Not a distant reality in Canada here, in micro, 5 minutes down the road is Trinity Western University. Its administrators and brand-marketers declare the institution an “arm of the church,” in full as a mission statement:

The mission of Trinity Western University, as an arm of the Church, is to develop godly Christian leaders: positive, goal-oriented university graduates with thoroughly Christian minds; growing disciples of Jesus Christ who glorify God through fulfilling the Great Commission, serving God and people in the various marketplaces of life.

While, at the same time, on tax-breaks for land used by the university, attempting to get funding from the government (though a private Evangelical Christian religious institution), harbouring a community covenant openly discriminatory against LGBTI+ individuals, and lead for decades by a president who resigned in the 2000s around the time of a sexual misconduct claim against him, one woman, at one job (who I worked with), who worked with him excused the claim by saying, “He was lonely.” (Nice.) Fundamentalist Evangelicals and Roman Catholic Christians with a literalist orientation seem socio-politically aligned. Is the fight in some parts of Canada akin to the right in American society, though more pervasive in the American example?

Durgin: I don’t know. But it is a very simple thing to realize that for decades upon decades in this country we teach women when they are girls of 5 to 6 years old that when a boy teases or pushes or torments or otherwise attacks them (admittedly sometimes in a not very harmful way physically) what do we teach that little girl? We tell her “Oh he likes you”. This is the beginning of women tolerating men’s bad behavior and it is the beginning of men dominating women and women actually allowing it. We ACTUALLY TEACH five-year-old girls that boys mistreating them means “He likes you”. Just sit back and THINK about that and you have your answer as to why we are in this conundrum today. Many girls of course want boys to like them so the lesson is they should start tolerating their bad behavior. Until this is stamped out with all eviscerating justice and blunt force the world will continue to wallow in patriarchal ignorance.

Jacobsen: There are figures within Canadian society who amount to closet Christians and cultural Christians acting as apologists for Christian doctrines and sociopolitical concerns without open, public stipulation as such, e.g., Dr. Jordan Peterson. We could see this from more than a decade ago in his media presence. He seemed surprised by the catapult to prominence at the start and oriented more clearly to it. Now, he embraces the minor fame and Christian orientation with absurdist comedy not intended as such, presenting ‘arguments’ of the Bible as “meta-true” in some moments. I see this as a defensive move. Canadian Christianity on the defensive and individuals highly sympathetic to its more regressive doctrines acting more surreptitiously to influence culture. Indeed, Peterson has noted it’s more effective to promote Christianity indirectly rather than directly; his motives are clear, though arguments remain jumbled – see: Nathan Robinson’s “The Intellectual We Deserve” – and emotional life seems highly labile (fake at times and real at others) – see: random, assorted crying and breakdown bouts & pouts.

Durgin: lol no time. 24 June 8:37 pm.

Footnotes

[1] Member, Giga Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-3; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Scott Durgin on Patriarchal Institutions, Roman Catholicism, and the United States’ Freedoms: Member, Giga Society (3)[Online]. July 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 8). Conversation with Scott Durgin on Patriarchal Institutions, Roman Catholicism, and the United States’ Freedoms: Member, Giga Society (3). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-3.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Scott Durgin on Patriarchal Institutions, Roman Catholicism, and the United States’ Freedoms: Member, Giga Society (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Scott Durgin on Patriarchal Institutions, Roman Catholicism, and the United States’ Freedoms: Member, Giga Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Scott Durgin on Patriarchal Institutions, Roman Catholicism, and the United States’ Freedoms: Member, Giga Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Scott Durgin on Patriarchal Institutions, Roman Catholicism, and the United States’ Freedoms: Member, Giga Society (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Scott Durgin on Patriarchal Institutions, Roman Catholicism, and the United States’ Freedoms: Member, Giga Society (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Scott Durgin on Patriarchal Institutions, Roman Catholicism, and the United States’ Freedoms: Member, Giga Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Scott Durgin on Patriarchal Institutions, Roman Catholicism, and the United States’ Freedoms: Member, Giga Society (3)[Internet]. (2022, July 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-3.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-07-08

Conversation with Clelia Albano on Family, Democratic Values, Religion and Skepticism, Dawkins, Gadamer, Wikipedian, and Cosmopolitan Weltanschauung Cosmic: Member, Capabilis (2)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightjournal.com

Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: May 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,533

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Clelia Albano is from Italy. She’s a teacher of Italian and Latin, painter and poet writing in Italian and English. She is a member of Capabilis and USIA. She has two collections of poetry, In Assenza di Naufragi, that was a finalist for the National Literary Contest “Il Mio Esordio 2018,” selected by the International Festival of Poetry of Genova, and “Come Tutte Le Cose di Questo Mondo”, a prosimetrum. She’s been published also in English on the American anthology “Winter” and by the literary magazine “The Night Heron Barks”. She loves reading, learning languages and editing for Wikipedia, which she has done since 2012. She was a finalist with “Come Tutte Le Cose di Questo Mondo” for the “Premio Internazionale Mario Luzi” 2020. She discusses: Latin and Greek in Naples; WWII; a sense of the importance of democracy; independence of the feminine side; earliest inklings of skepticism over religion; grotesque sides of religious faith; paint; poetry written in youth; aspects of the mind; linguistic codes; expansive memory; geniuses; perceptions of geniuses; main aspects of church corruption criticized by Dante; inspirations for writing the books; paintings; a Wikipedian; highly manipulative; the attraction of supernatural entities; scientists like Dawkins; an automaton; Gadamer’s presentation of Art in Truth and Method (1960); a democratic socialist; and cosmopolitan weltanschauung cosmic.

Keywords: Clelia Albano, cosmopolitan weltanschauung cosmic, Dante, Dawkins, Gadamer, geniuses, Italy, Naples, Wikipedian, WWII.

Conversation with Clelia Albano on Family, Democratic Values, Religion and Skepticism, Dawkins, Gadamer, Wikipedian, and Cosmopolitan Weltanschauung Cosmic: Member, Capabilis (2)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How did your father get into teaching Latin and Greek in Naples?

Clelia Albano[1],[2]*: My father was from Naples. He grew up and received his education there.

He attended the Classic Lyceum where Greek and Latin are the basic curricular subjects and given his attitude towards humanities and ancient languages he earned the degree in Ancient literatures and languages at the hometown University “Federico II”.

Jacobsen: What are some of the remarkable stories of family, ancestors and relatives, in association with WWII?

Albano: Apart from historical recounts, I was told by my father and my grandmother about one of the worst issues brought by the war: the scarcity of food. The family had to adapt the diet to a flour made from chestnuts and to other poor food.

This was an experience that in the following years gave the food a centrality almost religious in my father’s family. To be nourished in a proper way was considered a priority by my relatives and by my daddy, the first prescription to keep oneself healthy and alive. I was influenced by this idea.

Jacobsen: How have these stories helped develop a sense of the importance of democracy?

Albano: As I told you in our previous interview, I was raised according to democratic values developed and strengthened by my paternal family particularly as a reaction to the social, cultural and individual repression under Fascism.

Jacobsen: How have you incorporated this independence of the feminine side into your own narrative and life path?

Albano: By following and expressing my attitudes, my preferences, beliefs, regardless of cliché, conventions and the others’ judgements.

Jacobsen: What were the earliest inklings of skepticism over religion?

Albano: Well, I clearly remember that, especially in my teens, I got upset with the incoherent behaviour of some believers. Beside this I have something to say about religion that will surprise you. In the last months I have been caught by a desire for faith and for praying. Maybe the seeds of faith to which I was raised never abandoned me. Of course there are things I am still skeptical about, but I know inside of me that often I have suffered the loss of this religious vocabulary that unavoidably knock on the door of my lexical repertory at Christmas time or at Easter, or when I am in despair and I realize that the words in my possession lack of spiritual energy. Because I think we are our words, we are what we say and my idea is that even spirituality, the good and the evil are made of words. Once I read a remarkable scientific study on the human brain and the DNA sequences. I read something that amazed me because I had thought a lot of times that words might change the human brain’s map. This would be explicative of both the healing process and the development of a disease. When I stopped to believe in transcendence I never excluded the idea of mystery in our lives. Thus, before the influence of prayers and their healing power in several cases, I was open to the possibility that they have an effectual power. In the above mentioned study, the researchers had found that if we speak words of sorrow, anger, or we semantically express the wish to die, in sum if we speak words against ourselves, we might cause some changes in our DNA, since each sequence is very similar to the linguistic code. In other words it would be like replacing the healthy words of the DNA with sick and deadly words. So when we make a negative wish and we desire to die we run the risk that it comes true. That’s why I think that prayers might have some influence.

Jacobsen: What were those grotesque sides of religious faith to your father?

Albano: By grotesque I meant the combination of religion and superstition together, which gives flesh to rituals and objects where it is hard to distinguish the threshold between devotion and talismanic gestures. However there is also an awesome side of this combination.

In Naples it is still present this way of interpreting and living faith; so you will find in several contexts, amulets along with pictures of Jesus.

My father had a rational conception of faith and he thought that religion is the opposite of superstition.

Jacobsen: What kinds of things did you paint?

Albano: I painted mainly African subjects.

Jacobsen: What themes were common in the poetry written in youth if any?

Albano: More or less the contemplation of the world, the desire to be elsewhere in the far sides of the world, the oneiric side of life.

Jacobsen: What aspects of the mind cannot be measured?

Albano: creativity and inspiration. Another aspect is dreaming. Although there’s a Freudian part of me that tends to interpret dreams according to psychoanalytic symbology, the other side of me rejects the positivist conviction that the oneiric dimension can be dissected and notomized by Freudian schemes.

Jacobsen: How are “reality, life and experiences… linguistic codes”?

Albano: Sorry for repeating myself. They are made of words. That’s what I think. Also “God” is a word. Is there something we can think about without giving it a name?

Jacobsen: When you came across individuals comfortable amongst the extraordinary, what was the intuitive, innate reaction in you, as the normal reaction was, more commonly, astonishment with the, for example, more expansive memory?

Albano: Well, on the one hand my reaction was of admiration. On the other hand, I tried and I still try to learn from them. By observing their approach to life, science and technology, by observing their idea of faith, for example. As I told you before I have felt the urge to speak and think like a believer once again in my life. In the groups I am a member of, High IQ groups, I happened to find very gifted people who are believers. Particularly I was struck by the words of the creator of several High IQ Sites, tests, creator of GENIUS High IQ Networks, a Mensan and awarded as one of the most intelligent men in the world, who has faith in God. Somehow I felt comfortable with that side of me that even when rejected religion never got entirely skeptical.

Jacobsen: Why are geniuses, fundamentally, perceived as a “threat” or as “dangerous”?

Albano: Because generally they bring changes and discoveries that subvert the ordinary. Some people live in the dreads of progress. They feel more comfortable with held beliefs.

Jacobsen: Are these perceptions of geniuses generally legitimate or illegitimate?

Albano: In my humble opinion they are legitimate for the reasons I just have illustrated. There is also a conspicuous portion of the population who is enthusiastic about progress. But I think, in addition, that there are progressivists who trust scientific and philosophical knowledge, and by contrast, disagree with certain scientific projects for they involve social and ecological risks. Just to take but one example, the idea of colonising other planets sounds as a form of neo-colonialism to many progressive people, because both the financial investments for those enterprises and the plan to build up cities on extra-terrestrial environments involve the risks of polluting them.

Jacobsen: What were the main aspects of church corruption criticized by Dante? How did he go about doing it?

Albano: At the time of Dante, the Church had lost the role of spiritual guide. The main reason was that most of the ecclesiastical officials conducted a mundane life, exerted a political power on the believers; they did act against the Christian principles. There were Popes and archbishops who didn’t disdain to have concubines and to have children, disrespecting the vote of chastity. They betrayed the vote of poverty by accumulating money, richness and commodities of every sort. The Church of Saint Peter, held both the temporal and the spiritual powers; the abuses it perpetrated, emerged particularly during the civil battles between the Communes when the supporters of the Pope on the one side and the supporters of the imperator on the other, formed respectively the factions of Guelfs and Ghibellines. Dante, who had a profound devotion and who dreamt of a pure Christianity based on a religion that took care only of souls, denounced in the Comedy what was in contrast with the predicament of Jesus.

Jacobsen: What were the inspirations for writing the books?

Albano: The books I published are collections of poems I wrote in different times of my life. Each poem came from a particular and unique inspiration.

Jacobsen: What are paintings focused on thematically now?

Albano: Unfortunately, it’s ages. I don’t paint. I’m focused more on poetry and the lack of time made its part.

Jacobsen: What kind of edits and additions have you been making as a Wikipedian?

Albano: I have created articles for Wikipedia in English and in Italian, mostly biographic. Generally, I work on literary and artistic contents, but also on contents related to public figures in the field of whistle-blowing, hackers and human rights advocacy.

I have translated into Italian English Wikipedia entries on painters that were not on Wikipedia It. I have integrated several entries. I am particularly proud of the creation of the wiki bio of a contemporary artist, New York based, who is now exhibited at the Guggenheim.

Jacobsen: What immediately strikes you about individuals who are highly intelligent, highly creative, or both, while being, in other aspects of their lives ‘misogynistic, racist, and sadistic’?

Albano: They are highly manipulative. At the beginning they are fascinating because of the way they talk, the way they capture your attention. They use all the tricks to reach the goal. You can find that they write books about human rights, papers against discrimination, tons of words to condemn domestic violence, poems to celebrate women and on the other hand they gradually reveal to not practice what they preach. I mean that if you pay attention you will catch their missteps. I have experienced that.

Jacobsen: What was the attraction of supernatural entities hypothesized by adults and authorities as a youth?

Albano: When I was a child at the end of the 70s early 80s, the TV and cinema main subject was the extra-terrestrial world. I remember that knowledge and science were focused on planet earth and on space. I was given as a gift a book by David Attenborough, “Life on Earth: A Natural History” and on the other side there was this huge interest in life on the other planets, life on Mars, et cetera. The idea of an E T. somewhere, ready to get in touch with me excited my fantasy for a certain time.

Jacobsen: Regarding “scientists like Dawkins,” what is the fear induced there? Is this a common sentiment?

Albano: In my previous interview I said that I don’t like the so-called new atheists because I refuse the idea we are only chemistry. I fear that a human being might end up like a predictable text.

Jacobsen: How is an automaton, though Carbon-formed and naturally evolved, view of human beings “creepy”? Can you expand on this, please?

Albano: Yes, I will try to expand. Well, the idea that we are determined only by our DNA would mean that we are predestined to be good or evil and that everything we do is not the consequence of a conscious decision but of a series of actions embedded by default in our cerebral circuits. It would make education, knowledge, religion, philosophy, all that mankind created, meaningless. This view of a human being is scary to me.

Jacobsen: With Gadamer’s presentation of Art in Truth and Method (1960) as the “transmission for meanings across time,” in some way, this circumnavigates the issues, pointed out by you, of siloing of disciplines and the fragmentation of knowledge seen in other disciplines than Art. Even though, art created by individuals across time can be interpreted in multiple ways with various depths of analysis to yield commonality of values or ethics. Can codification and trans-codification remain at risk of interpretation to ‘common’ values without benefit to human beings in general – or values seen across time with more degenerative effects on individuals and societies, e.g., artistic works interpreted across time through a reference frame of nihilistic ethics (or nihilistic anti-morality/non-morality)? Although, at the same time, these could be interpreted in more Christian Existentialist in some lenses or humanistic in frames. In that, it’s not a big risk, but it can be one. Who gets the interpretive authority in the end, in other words?

Albano: Of course there might be the risk of misinterpretation or even the risk of manipulative interpretations. This question is very important because you touch on an essential point which is ethics. We know that in the Middle Age they interpreted pagan authors from the Latin world or the Greek world through the lens of the Christian religion. In doing so they subverted the real meaning of works of literature, philosophy and so forth. There is the opposite risk, though. Also atheism or political regimes, dictatorships, in history, have deliberately misinterpreted works of art and literature. The risk is avoided if interpretation entails an hermeneutics free from prejudices – pre-judices in the gadamerian sense -. The second relevant point of your question is “who gets the interpretative authority”. In my humble opinion it is wrong to refer to a single one authority because I don’t share the view according to which only one cultural canon is established as valid, putting all the others beneath. This happens with the so-called Western Canon, for example. Once I read “The Western Canon ”, written by Harold Bloom. I must admit that I assimilated many intriguing concepts, but there was something utterly disturbing in Bloom’s contempt towards multiculturalism. We can’t ignore that also on the opposite side of the earth, Asia, Middle-East, Iran that previously was that magnificent empire of Persia, art, literature, philosophy, flourished. They produced myths, religions, archetypal figures fraught with meaning. They had writers and philosophers, who range amongst the greatest in human history. So, why do we talk only about the Western Canon? Where is the Eastern Canon or the Multicultural Canon?

Jacobsen: What society most resembles a democratic socialist one to you?

Albano: In the actual world no one. Democratic socialism is yet to come.

Jacobsen: As a cosmopolitan weltanschauung cosmic, with only this one life to live, what are your plans for this one life with the “bonds of affection, empathy [and] progress” to fill the void for you?

Albano: I will surprise you once again. As I have said above I feel this need of spirituality but don’t expect me to say that I have now a religious vision of the afterlife. I know it sounds contradictory. The fact is that I don’t exclude another dimension after we pass away. Where it will be and what aspect it has, I can’t imagine. Maybe when we die we are transformed into energy and, who knows, maybe this energy goes somewhere even here in this world…

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Clelia.

Albano: Thanks back, dear Scott. Your interviews are amazing. I really appreciate this opportunity you give.

Footnotes

[1] Italian & Latin Teacher; Painter; Poet, Member, Capabilis; Member, USIA.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/albano-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Clelia Albano on Family, Democratic Values, Religion and Skepticism, Dawkins, Gadamer, Wikipedian, and Cosmopolitan Weltanschauung Cosmic: Member, Capabilis (2)[Online]. July 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/albano-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6^th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 8, 15). Conversation with Clelia Albano on Family, Democratic Values, Religion and Skepticism, Dawkins, Gadamer, Wikipedian, and Cosmopolitan Weltanschauung Cosmic: Member, Capabilis (2). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightjournal.com/albano-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Clelia Albano on Family, Democratic Values, Religion and Skepticism, Dawkins, Gadamer, Wikipedian, and Cosmopolitan Weltanschauung Cosmic: Member, Capabilis (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/albano-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. Conversation with Clelia Albano on Family, Democratic Values, Religion and Skepticism, Dawkins, Gadamer, Wikipedian, and Cosmopolitan Weltanschauung Cosmic: Member, Capabilis (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightjournal.com/albano-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16^th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Clelia Albano on Family, Democratic Values, Religion and Skepticism, Dawkins, Gadamer, Wikipedian, and Cosmopolitan Weltanschauung Cosmic: Member, Capabilis (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (July 2022). http://www.in-sightjournal.com/albano-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Clelia Albano on Family, Democratic Values, Religion and Skepticism, Dawkins, Gadamer, Wikipedian, and Cosmopolitan Weltanschauung Cosmic: Member, Capabilis (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/albano-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Clelia Albano on Family, Democratic Values, Religion and Skepticism, Dawkins, Gadamer, Wikipedian, and Cosmopolitan Weltanschauung Cosmic: Member, Capabilis (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightjournal.com/albano-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7^thEdition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Clelia Albano on Family, Democratic Values, Religion and Skepticism, Dawkins, Gadamer, Wikipedian, and Cosmopolitan Weltanschauung Cosmic: Member, Capabilis (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A(2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightjournal.com/albano-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Clelia Albano on Family, Democratic Values, Religion and Skepticism, Dawkins, Gadamer, Wikipedian, and Cosmopolitan Weltanschauung Cosmic: Member, Capabilis (2)[Internet]. (2022, July 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightjournal.com/albano-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-07-08

Conversation with Craft Xia on Life, Work, and Views: Founder, CHIN (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,291

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Craft Xia is the Founder of CHIN. He discusses: growing up; extended self; family background; youth with friends; education; purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence; extreme reactions to geniuses; greatest geniuses; genius and a profoundly gifted person; necessities for genius or the definition of genius; work experiences and jobs held; job path; myths of the gifted; God; science; tests taken and scores earned; range of the scores; ethical philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; worldview; meaning in life; source of meaning; afterlife; life; and love.

Keywords: ancient Chinese, books, CHIN, Chinese people, computer skills, Craft Xia, family, graphic design, high IQ, James Clerk Maxwell, LSHR Light, Nietzsche, Religion, Steven Weinberg, Strict Logic Sequences Examination – Form II, Strict Logic Spatial Examination 48, Xinjiang.

Conversation with Craft Xia on Life, Work, and Views: Founder, CHIN (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?

Craft Xia: In my childhood memory, the prominent family stories I heard of were all read from books, such as Three Moves by Mencius’ Mother, Kong Rong Giving Away Bigger Pears, and so on. These were also touched in school education. It is no different from what ordinary Chinese children are exposed to.

Jacobsen: Have these stories helped provide a sense of an extended self or a sense of the family legacy?

Xia: These ancient Chinese family stories and the family stories of some world celebrities are part of the education most people receive in their childhood, and are mainly used to guide the construction of values and morality. In this regard, my family did not give me too much help. The education and information I came into contact with in my childhood mainly came from school. From then on, I did get some sense of self extension, but it was not a family legacy.

Jacobsen: What was the family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Xia: My family is a single parent family, my parents’ education level is average. I was born in Xinjiang Province in Northwest China. There are many Gobi deserts and snow mountains in Xinjiang. I am a Han nationality. There are many Muslims in Xinjiang, but my family, including me, has no religious beliefs.

Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and an adolescent?

Xia: I got along well with my peers in my childhood and adolescence, probably because I was gentle and friendly. I usually made a good impression on others.

Jacobsen: What have been some professional certifications, qualifications, and trainings earned by you?

Xia: I have a professional certificate in computer skills and a certificate in graphic design.

Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?

Xia: When I first came into contact with the intelligence test, I thought it was a test of cognitive ability and cognitive model. Now I take it more as an interest. I think its purpose is in general applications, such as the identification of people with intellectual disabilities, and the identification of people with good logical ability and cognitive ability.

Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?

Xia: When I was a junior high school student.

Xia: Generally speaking, from a social point of view, geniuses refer to people with extremely outstanding abilities, who can have a great impact on the creation and distribution of social interests. However, the acts of geniuses will inevitably produce beneficiaries and people whose interests are damaged. Those who benefit from them flatter them, while those whose interests are damaged slander them. For example, Copernicus’ discovery violated the interests of the church, Royal rife’s research and invention touched the interests of the U.S. medical industry at that time. Jealousy and other issues are essentially disputes of interests. I think not only geniuses, but also people with great influence will be subjected to such extreme reactions and treatment.

Jacobsen: Who seems like the greatest geniuses in history to you?

Xia: James Clerk Maxwell.

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?

Xia: In my opinion, genius is a talent that is far beyond ordinary people in a certain field and can not be crossed with ordinary efforts. However, people with high IQ are people who have higher cognitive and logical abilities than ordinary people, but do not necessarily have super talents in some specific aspects. They often can see the essence of things better than ordinary people.

Jacobsen: Is profound intelligence necessary for genius?

Xia: I don’t think it’s necessary.

Jacobsen: What have been some work experiences and jobs held by you?

Xia: I have worked as a programmer and designer, as well as in the blockchain industry

Jacobsen: Why pursue this particular job path?

Xia: I majored in software engineering in college, but also because of some of my personal interests

Jacobsen: What are some of the more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses? Those myths that pervade the cultures of the world. What are those myths? What truths dispel them?

Xia: The genius understood by the western world is generally extremely sensitive in the fields of physical mathematics and other natural sciences, but more sensitive in the field of psychological art. In the eyes of the Chinese people, the judgment standard of genius is generally based on the number of achievements, and these achievements are obtained in a very short time. Schopenhauer has interpreted genius in this way. Only those people with the highest spiritual endowment, which we call “genius”, can enter such a state: they are fully devoted to artistic creation or scientific research, and are completely occupied by them. Therefore, the whole life is closely intertwined with these things, so that they lose interest in anything else.

Many people think that genius is highly related to physics, mathematics and other disciplines. In fact, every field has its own genius, but its influence on society is different.

The history of many ethnic groups begins with myth. I think myth is that primitive people in the past explained some natural phenomena that they could not explain according to their own understanding. However, there were no words or other recordable things at that time, so they had to rely on language to pass down such things. They use stories or poems that are easier to remember and tell, so they are easier to pass down. In the process of narration, it is inevitable to add some exaggerated rhetorical devices, so the present myth is slowly formed.

With the more and more profound understanding of the material world, especially the great emancipation of social and humanistic thoughts in modern history, the war has also promoted the blending of civilizations in various regions, just like a violent chemical reaction. In such an environment, a group of great geniuses have been born. They come with the truth and greatly promoted the process of human civilization.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?

Xia: Steven Weinberg once said: With or without religion, good people can behave well and bad people can do evil; but for good people to do evil — that takes religion.

I think religion is declining. According to the 2010 survey, the proportion of people who believe in God in the 27 EU countries has dropped to 51%. Moreover, the more developed European countries are, the lower the proportion of believers is, and the higher the proportion of atheists is. Maybe because I was born in China, Chinese people generally do not believe in religion. If the environment is suitable, I think I may also believe in religion.

The religious people in ancient society suffered from an ontologicalnostalgia. They always longed deeply to live in the sacred and to be infiltrated by the power of the real existence represented by the sacred. The prevalence of nihilism today is due to the cultural stripping of sacredness

I like Plato’s words about philosophy: It (Philosophy) is a science that not only looks for what it is, but also why it is.

Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?

Xia: I think that in the process of gradually enriching my knowledge of the world, science basically constitutes my world outlook. Science has eliminated many of my doubts, but it has also brought some ultimate problems about the material world and some more thinking about the essence.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations) for you?

Xia: If you mean IQ test, I have done some high-range tests

Strict Logic Spatial Examination 48, 31/48 (IQ 179.4 SD15)

Strict Logic Sequences Examination – Form II, 24/30 (IQ 177.8 SD15)

LSHR Light, (IQ 170 SD15)

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Xia: Ethics is a bottom line and the maximum value allowed by the values formed in the historical development of mankind.

I think it can arouse our natural love for virtue and enhance our hatred for evil; Through its fair and detailed comments, it helps to correct and clarify our natural feelings about the appropriateness of behavior, and by providing careful and thoughtful consideration, we can make more correct behavior than we might think when we lack such guidance. Such ethics is meaningful.

Ethics is easy to decorate with eloquence, so if possible, it can give new importance to the extremely trivial norms of responsibility.

Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Xia: From Nietzsche’s criticism, he tried to expose the tricks of thousands of rights, and finally came to the conclusion that the essence of society is control.

In my opinion, Nietzsche inspired all kinds of critical theories that now dominate. He believes that criticism is the continuous deconstruction of society. When people deconstruct sociological, historical and literary criticism, they hold extremely clear views: control over women, control over former colonies, control over sexual minorities, hegemonic control over orthodox culture, hegemonic control over cultural industries… Such lists can be extended indefinitely.

I think the critical function of sociology is very meaningful. Although sociologists only provide reference opinions, they cannot change social phenomena. Because he is not the one who cuts the cake and controls the material resources.

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Xia: The knowledge of interest distribution is politics. The significance of political existence is to provide benefit distribution and solutions to benefit disputes between different classes, groups and individuals in human society. Man is an animal living in meaning. From a political point of view, meaning is given by the order of ought to be, but ought to also evolve. The driving force of evolution is the tension between ought to be and reality. When people ask questions, they actually encounter a mismatch between what they should expect and what they really are, which constitutes a problem, so they ask questions from this point of view. Political philosophy itself is to give a kind of natural expectation on political issues. It also constitutes an unconscious question meaning framework when people ask questions about political issues. When we ask questions, we will use a series of concepts in this question meaning framework.

In the construction of political ought to be, a good and feasible political philosophy not only gives a kind of expression of value, but also shows a kind of legitimate narration.

Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes some sense to you, even the most workable sense to you?

Xia: Truth, in form, is a kind of assertion; In terms of content, it is people’s conceptual reflection of the stable, inevitable and repeatable characteristics and connections in things and phenomena. Unlike the truth of science and common sense, metaphysics often studies absolute and unconditional truth. Metaphysics does not study concrete and sensible things, but abstract and overall things, and does not study objects that people can grasp and perceive. However, the scope of research is boundless and the content is unlimited, and people cannot observe and perceive objects at all, such as nature, material, spirit, etc.

I am a pragmatist. I think that due to human cognitive mode, metaphysics’ summary of the essential laws of the world cannot be verified, is transcendental, and usually has the characteristics of integrity. It has no clear derivation path and cannot be inherited. So how can we continue to study it?

But the research and inquiry of metaphysics is very necessary. I think metaphysics should determine a reliable research path and express its laws in clear language as much as possible

Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Xia: I think it’s objective materialism.

Jacobsen: What provides meaning in life for you?

Xia: As an animal’s natural instinct, and the fetter with others.

Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?

Xia: I think that only when things are interrelated can they reflect meaning. Human beings constantly understand and grasp the nature and laws of the object, and abstract meaning from it, which is both externally derived and internally generated.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, why, and what form? If not, why not?

Xia: I have seen some reports about people recalling their memories of previous lives before. Some of them seem very real, but I can’t understand what carrier carries their memories. Is it the soul? These supernatural topics are of great interest to me, but beyond my understanding. I personally believe that there is an afterlife, but I can’t imagine the specific mechanism.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the mystery and transience of life?

Xia: Limited life seems to be a form of evolution, and reproduction and inheritance are more endless eternal life. The mystery of life lies in the moment when it was first born. We know that the essence of life is the orderly accumulation and release of energy, but the coincidence when it was first born from the inorganic world still remains mysterious to mankind. It’s like a script arranged by the universe.

Jacobsen: What is love to you?

Xia: Unconditional and absolute trust and dedication.

Footnotes

[1] Founder, CHIN.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 8, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/xia-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Craft Xia on Life, Work, and Views: Founder, CHIN (1)[Online]. July 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/xia-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 8). Conversation with Craft Xia on Life, Work, and Views: Founder, CHIN (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/xia-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Craft Xia on Life, Work, and Views: Founder, CHIN (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/xia-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Craft Xia on Life, Work, and Views: Founder, CHIN (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/xia-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Craft Xia on Life, Work, and Views: Founder, CHIN (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/xia-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Craft Xia on Life, Work, and Views: Founder, CHIN (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/xia-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Craft Xia on Life, Work, and Views: Founder, CHIN (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/xia-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Craft Xia on Life, Work, and Views: Founder, CHIN (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/xia-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Craft Xia on Life, Work, and Views: Founder, CHIN (1)[Internet]. (2022, July 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/xia-1.

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2022-07-01

Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 1: Tor Arne Jørgensen, Hindemburg Melão Jr., Tim Roberts, Rick Rosner, David Udbjørg, Garth Zietsman, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on the State of the High-I.Q.

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.D, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 7,505

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high-I.Q. societies. Hindemburg Melão Jr. founded the Sigma Society and the Sigma Test. Tim Roberts is the Founder/Administrator of Unsolved Problems. Rick Rosner is a member of the Mega Society and the Giga Society. David Udbjørg was the Founder of High IQ Society for Humanity. Garth Zietsman is a member of the Mega Society. Tianxi Yu (余天曦) is a member of God’s Power. They discuss: state of the high-I.Q.; other regions’ high-I.Q. communities; the issues in the high-I.Q. communities; the positive aspects of the high-I.Q. communities; and the newest projects and upcoming developments in the high-I.Q. communities.

Keywords: Africa, Asia, David Udbjørg, Europe, Garth Zietsman, Hindemburg Melão Jr., I.Q., Latin America, North America, Oceania, Rick Rosner, Tianxi Yu, Tim Roberts, Tor Arne Jørgensen.

Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 1: Tor Arne Jørgensen, Hindemburg Melão Jr., Tim Roberts, Rick Rosner, David Udbjørg, Garth Zietsman, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on the State of the High-I.Q.

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*After internal discussion by, and with, the group, two representatives for Africa this round.*

*Interviews completed throughout June, 2022.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This first session will set a tone about the high-I.Q. communities around the world to some degree. Obviously, there are limitations in conducting a group discussion such as this. Regardless, it’s a start. A previous attempt focused, mainly, on North America and Europe with participants and observers in 2020:

https://in-sightpublishing.com/2020/03/15/hrt-one/

https://in-sightpublishing.com/2020/04/01/hrt-two/

https://in-sightpublishing.com/2020/04/22/hrt-three/

https://in-sightpublishing.com/2020/05/08/hrt-four/

This will depart from structure with an elimination of observers and strictly limit to participants, and consider an international focus with individuals consenting to representation. This does not mean carrying some proverbial regional flag by the individual. Yet, their experience within this region of the world does permit an experiential perspective richer than other participants, so legitimizes it to some modest level. Everyone is aware of the ground rules. Fundamentally, and most importantly, this exists as an experiment as an educational group discussion. So, let’s begin, what is the state of the high-I.Q. in your region of the world?

Tor Arne Jørgensen[1]* (Europe): Initially, my experience as to the present-day status within the high IQ community, is marked by a steady flow of positive mindfulness and forward-thinking. Also, to add, the creativeness whereas new innovative initiatives are significant protruded exponentially, through the willfulness of a unified and resolute commitment towards a more global awareness of what the high IQ community is all about. This done by way of informative directives addressed by and for the average percipient both inside and outside of the high IQ community.

Hindemburg Melão Jr.[2]* (Latin America): Low activity.

Tim Roberts[3]* (Oceania): Almost non-existent in any meaningful sense. So, I shall pad with answering an alternative, primary-school, geography-based question instead. What the hell is Oceania, the region I’m purported to represent? Well, basically, it’s Australia, and New Zealand, and literally thousands of small islands in the Pacific. It’s the largest, but second-least populated (after Antarctica), of all the continents. That much may be widely known. But it is generally not known that the islands include Hawaii. So, Hawaii, while part of the US, is actually in Oceania. Any high-IQ individuals in Hawaii would, I am sure, self-identify as being from the US, rather than from the continent of Oceania….thus making their identification rather problematical.

Rick Rosner[4]* (North America): Disclaimer is, everybody else has the good manners to submit written answers. You’re doing me the favour of letting me talk the answers to you and transcribing. So, my answers are going to sound a little stupider than everybody else’s.

So, for the vast majority of Americans, I.Q. is something that just doesn’t occupy even the tiniest sliver of concern or awareness. Nobody gives a crap. Although, there are some fringe people who are way into it. But you can see that the fall of aptitude testing, in the abandonment of the S.A.T., as a necessary component of your college application package. People don’t buy it. There are plenty of other ways to get the measure of a person besides giving them a test that is supposed to gauge their mental acuity.

David Udbjørg[5]* (Africa): It’s an honor to participate in these discussions, and I am especially honored that my long-time friend Melaõ, finds that my thoughts on Africa might be of value to the discussion.

I lived for almost eight years in South Africa. During this time, I only had little interaction with people from the local or international intelligence community, and hence, I don’t have anything to offer in this direction.

To have perspectives from all continents, and not, as is the case with most IQ societies, mostly from an American point of view, is indeed very appealing to me.

I was hoping that the questions would go in a different direction than towards the state of intelligence in Africa, and maybe more in line with what I was once fought for through the organization High IQ for Humanity.

High IQ for Humanity (HIQH) dates back to the early zero’s and was an attempt to have the High IQ World come together and create something besides just having high level conversations on bulletin boards. HIQH had two main issues they wanted to follow, the first, and to me the most important, was to create an organization that would be able to find and support highly intelligent children in developing countries, and the second topic was to inform about the dangers of brain drain from the developing countries. We formed the legal base for the organization, and got registered as an NGO in a handful of countries. All efforts were unpaid and on spare time.

Our daily lives took off in all directions, we didn’t have the time needed, and the efforts slowly fizzled out without new people taking over. The organization was closed down in 2005.

We didn’t manage to do any sort of impact; we didn’t manage to raise any financing. Part of the reason for not getting financing, was that many people found it directly offensive only to focus on the children with high intelligence, and not the rest. The best thing, which came out of it, was that we, who worked on the project, found a lot of good and long lasting highly intelligent friends, and Melaõ is certainly one of them. Melaõ, thanks for your support then, and now again.

I am extremely happy that Garth Zeitsman, is joining us, he will be so much better to answer the questions at hand, as he has been deeply embedded in the intelligence community in South Africa, and hence knows the current state, seen from this particular angle, but also from living in South Africa and being a statistician, he will be able to contribute in so many ways.

Even though I feel like the cat sneaking along the walls in the saloons of The League of Exceptional Gentlemen, the odd one out, I have a few comments and questions to add from the shadows. They will not relate to the posed questions, but are thought of, based on my extensive traveling and confrontations with all sorts of cultures, which people in general do not have the opportunity or the will to meet.

I have spent a lot of time talking with people living and working on garbage dumps in Africa, and I have visited quite a few indigenous tribes, both in Africa, but also in South East Asia.

I wonder what the level of intelligence is in these populations, those who live on the flipside of the modern World, those who often have to balance their traditions and the surrounding modern society. Is there a fair and doable way to measure their intelligence and other cognitive skills?

It is claimed that people from the African continent have a lesser average intelligence, than on any other continent. I find it hard to believe, could it be that the context of the testing is faulty? Could it be that the tests are not suitable for all cultures, even though some are Culture Fair? Some of you probably have an idea about how tests are performed in Africa, to reach these results? It seems that we are trying to fit everyone to the testing systems, and not design the tests for specific targets. A Cinderella approach, so to speak.

If we want to test the intelligence of people and be able to compare the results afterwards, the subjects must have a somewhat similar background, which includes daily mental challenges, life stability, nourishments etc.

It could be interesting to have a testing system, particularly authored for measuring and comparing intelligence, at low social levels, for instance, among street children in Dhaka, Bangladesh on the one side and street children in New Delhi, India on the other. Maybe the children from poor areas in the US and Brazil could also be part of the evaluation.

Measuring the intelligence of adults living off garbage in Sao Paulo in comparison with those working on the landfill sites in Pretoria, South Africa? Would also be interesting in fact, we would be able to come up with many similar pairings across social levels, cultures, nations, continents. If it is possible to make these kinds of testing pairs across the social spectrum, we might be able to get a more precise idea about the actual level of intelligence in each region.

It would be equally interesting to do testing among various kinds of indigenous tribes, who are still living their ancestral lifestyle; it could for instance be the SAN in Kalahari and the Dani tribe in the highland of West Papua or the Baduy tribe in West Java. Each of these cultures is struggling to maintain their cultures, and some of them are more successful than others.

I hope the above might bring some new thoughts to the discussions ahead.

Garth Zietsman[6]* (Africa): From its origins in the 70s Mensa SA increased membership up until mid 2000 and then declined. The reasons are 2 fold. Firstly since the end of Apartheid and the beginning of ANC government there has been an increase in emigration from SA and I have to say Mensa has been disproportionately affected. The second reason has been a random change in the quality and popularity of leadership – which hopefully will change in the future. Some local regions are vibrant while others are rapidly declining. About a decade ago I was instrumental in starting a new local region – which unfortunately folded after a few years. This was in a heavily Afrikaaner area and apparently Mensa is seen as more of an English thing. Another new area – which has become the best local Mensa in SA – is in a very English biased area of the Cape Province. Mensa SA has endeavored to find members among non-white groups but there has been a profound lack of interest from that quarter. That said we do have non-white members – especially from the Asian (both Southern and Eastern) and mixed race communities. Most of our black members are not local but immigrants from other African countries (mostly Zimbabwe.)

I once calculated that we were reaching only 1-2% of our potential membership at our peak so there is still plenty of room to grow.

Tianxi Yu (余天曦)[7],[8]* (Asia): The Asian region is mainly represented by the Chinese and Japanese communities, and I will elaborate on each of them in four parts: social environment, societies’ situation, tests’ style, and main people. Since I know China better, I prefer to elaborate in a way that China is the main focus and Japan is the supplement. a) Social environment: China is not tolerant of people with high IQ, although the whole world is, but China is more demanding. I have heard that Mensa members in some countries enjoy some benefits because of their Mensa status, but in China, presenting a high-IQ association may be exchanged for more tasks, even contempt. There is another interesting phenomenon, I have carefully observed the Japanese and international well-known associations, people with high IQ tend to be highly educated, I have done a statistic before, the most educated people in China tend to have an IQ of only 130~140, within the group of IQ 170 or above, there are few people with higher education; b) Societies’ situation: The development of the world’s intellectual communities can be described as a shift from a corporate system (Mensa) to an alliance system (WIN). The intellectual community in the Chinese region developed later, but followed this same route, from Shenghan to GFIS. But with the establishment of God’s power, it may enter the third stage – the elite system: the social elite who have both high IQ scores as the leader. Although the current intellectual community inside, high IQ people are often not less educated, but none of them use their ability as an attraction to make members want to become better. In a positive society, the leader has a leadership role to the group, and the kind of leadership used also determines the attributes of the society. With intellectual leadership, members will just indulge in doing IQ test, with achievement leadership, members will use their intellect to change the world and will become more useful to the world. This decision is based on the current situation of the Chinese society and the social situation. The Japanese association is led by Mensa Japan, and the local association Metiq also does a better job; c) Tests’ style: Chinese tests are mainly in the form of numerical tests, with a more innovative style and deeper ideas (such as Death Numbers and MIT), and the amount of spatial tests is relatively little, but there are also very innovative works (such as CAT and CAT2). Japanese tests feel more traditional to me, and the ideas and styles are closer to the traditional LS and SLSE, etc. However, I was impressed by a author called Takuma Oishi, which is very artistic, but he is reluctant to call it a “test” and intentionally avoids IQ estimation; d) Main people: The main people of the Chinese intellectual community are more difficult to define because of the unification and the establishment of a new hegemony have not yet been completed, and now should be me and Fengzhi Wu (IQ ranking: http://www.chinahighiq.com/col.jsp?id=105 ). The main person in Japan is Naoki Kouda (IQ ranking: https://kanji-love.wixsite.com/metiq/score-list).

Jacobsen: From the internal perspective of members of your region, how do other regions’ high-I.Q. communities look to you?

Jørgensen (Europe): I would want to think, that those continents beyond our own, talking about; Latin America, Oceania; North America, Africa, and Asia, do consider us as an active part as to the whole. Considering that the high IQ community by reference to Europe’s involvement is to be perceived as a collectively active unit, which in turn provides a lot of return, not only narrative to the European members per se, but also in a global member perspective.

I feel the need to mention some of the most honorable and famous names that contribute both by and for the high IQ communities and their respective countries that have their base of origin in Europe, people such as: Domagoj Kutle, Evangelos Katsioulis, Iakovos Koukas, the Chairman of Mensa International Bjørn Lilljeqvist, also to add Norway’s own brilliant and creative intellectuals like; Erik Hæreid, Glenn Alden, Arne Andre Gangvik, Olav Hoel Dørum and lastly but humble so, myself.

Here one could include many more contributors to the above list of names, which in total means that The High IQ community is flourishing more now today than ever before. Will also permit myself, by presenting my absolute admiration to all of you who are both mentioned here in this context and to you who are not mentioned here, by proclaiming a profound and heartfelt thank you for all your efforts and hard work within the high IQ society!!

Melão Jr. (Latin America): I believe that Mensa USA and Mensa UK are large, active and well-organized groups. The groups created by Iakovos and Evangelos, which try to unify several different societies, seem to me to be very promising ideas. The good organization and the large number of participants are two attributes that I consider positive and important.

Roberts (Oceania): Very much more populated, certainly. I suspect, without any real evidence, that the great bulk of activity takes place in North America and Europe. However, on Jason Betts’ World Genius Directory, thirteen high-IQ individuals (“geniuses”) are identifiable as being from Oceania: Tim Roberts, Peter Rodgers, Paul Moroz, Jason Betts, Zeljko Zahtila, Anthony Lawson, Anthony Xu, Wayne Cooper, Ivan Zelich, Stephen Murray, Kristi Beams, and Ian Ajzenszmidt, all from Australia, and Richard Sheen, from New Zealand.

Rosner (North America): I’d assume Europe is pretty much like America. Everyone is pretty much over it. Asia, especially East Asia, countries like Taiwan and South Korea still, I think, has a certain amount of testing mania. Where, people feel they have to get tested if they want to apply to American colleges. It is a high stakes thing. I assume it is fading somewhat as more and more U.S. colleges abandon aptitude testing. But I would think that it is holding on longer and longer in East Asian countries.

Udbjørg (Africa): [See first response.]

Zietsman (Africa): The only other high IQ regions we are aware of to any significant degree are the USA and UK. We think the UK way of doing things is a bit disappointing, i.e., they tend to just have informal socials whereas in SA we have formal meetings with an expert speaker before we go off and socialize. I understand the US is much more varied in how they conduct things. Other regions – mostly the USA – have societies with above Mensa level qualifications. There are probably less than 10 SA members of the ISPE or 999, Prometheus/Mega and only 1 (the late Philip Bateman – multiple world Creativity Champion) was particularly active in any of these.

Yu (Asia): I know very little about other regions.

Jacobsen: What are the issues in the high-I.Q. communities in your region of the world?

Jørgensen (Europe): I will hereby take use of this opportunity, to point out the consequent notation in the pressing sense for a strong brothering bond between all high IQ societies for an overall value base that has a common goal of improving of our common future endeavors.

What is meant by this, is referred to what Mensa International must do by breaking down many of its preconceived notions and ill views towards what the High IQ communities represents regarding its core values. I have on previous occasions, talked about a “fraternization” of all societies for the collective strengthening and the common good.

Mensa Norway and its International big brother Mensa International referenced to its recognized reputation, must in my view change, at least in some way, its now dogmatic attitudes towards the high IQ societies by a more general acceptance as previous mentioned, i.e., a more mutual beneficial understanding and acceptance per se. Today, the individual high IQ societies do not have their unifying imprint as regards of a general acceptance of each other.

This is for me what should be addressed in the future and drastically changed. Now in order for this to take place, the most recognized and overall respected society presidents outside of Mensa, should then assemble a comprehensive and jointly accepted system that will enable for the possibility of opening the door ajar. This done in the hope of mutual reconcilement of what Mensa International legislations bestows upon them, which in turn can enable a general acceptance through unification of all the high IQ societies.

A carefully select panel should be elected, that in turn can organize the development through careful and prudent planning for what may turn this idea into a reliable and thus possible implementation towards an overall unified community that again will serve back to its members interests on a global scale. When a desire for a national constitution by the new nation’s founding fathers is put into motion and whereby community nations prosperity is then established, then we may bring upon a general acceptance between Mensa International and the rest of high IQ community. What is of absolute certainty, is that if we all sit on our asses, then nothing will ever happen. By starting a global revolution, where we within the high IQ community can now produce a general acceptance externally to the general population on an equal footing with Mensa International then the mission is clear for me, let make this a reality by any means possible.

Melão Jr. (Latin America): I see that Mensa chapters in some countries interact harmoniously with other groups, promoting some joint activities. Unfortunately, Mensa Brasil is different. For example: in 2000 and 2001, friends from Finland, Belgium, USA published the Sigma Test in ComMensal, Mensalainen, Gift of Fire, Papyrus etc., while Mensa Brasil tried to hide the existence of Sigma Society and Sigma Test from its members. These boycott attempts are pernicious and petty, such conduct should bring shame on serious and reputable members of high IQ societies. I estimate that at that time perhaps 80% of Mensa Brasil members were unaware of the existence of other high-IQ societies (currently perhaps 50% still do not). A similar problem is also observed in the overwhelming majority of youtubers who claim to be “scientific dissemination” act exactly like this.

Another problem is that the focus of high-IQ societies, in my view, should be on bringing smart people together to solve scientific, technological, social, educational, environmental and other problems to make the world a better place. However, what I observe are vain people, with Dunning-Kruger syndrome , vying for who has the bigger ego. I am also vain and I have an inflated ego, but life is more than that and the potential of the smartest people should be better directed and better used. This isn’t a problem unique to my region, but I think it’s more serious in my region. Solving puzzles can be fun, but there are people dying in war, disease and starvation. I enjoy solving and creating puzzles, but I also try to work on relevant real-world problems. When David created the High IQ Society for Humanity, I thought it was an excellent project and absolutely necessary. In my interview, I commented on the plight of exceptionally gifted children who are not properly engaged in compatible activities in the US. This type of problem is much more frequent and more serious in my region. The absence of efficient mechanisms to identify and support talented children and young people is one of the most serious problems.

Another problem that is present not only in my region, but in the world, is the way “outsiders” view high-IQ societies and their members. Universities like Harvard or Cambridge are basically high IQ societies that receive financial support from the government and private companies, these institutions work for the common good, they are respected, admired, sponsored, joining them is a goal pursued by outsiders, who strive to get in. These universities bring together high-IQ people and use entrance exams that are strongly correlated with IQ tests. So they can be classified as high IQ societies or “hybrid high IQ societies”. In 2000, Kevin Langdon “declassified” Sigma Society as a “ pure high IQ Society” because some criteria for admission are not based solely on IQ tests, but also accept Chess ratings, medals in Mathematics Olympiads, etc. However Mega Society also used, for some time, the real-world problem solving criterion as a criterion for admission, Prometheus had discussions by the psychometric committee about accepting scores in the Think game Fast as criteria for admission and other results that are not exclusively IQ tests, and all societies that adopt SAT, GRE, ACT as criteria are accepting exams that are not, strictly speaking, IQ tests. In addition, several universities accept SAT, GRE, ACT, which makes the classification of an entity as a “high IQ society” something not as well defined as it was at the time when only Mensa existed and the only criterion was clinical tests. . In fact, the clinical tests themselves vary more from each other (weaker correlation) than SAT and GRE compared to some of the major clinical tests. Therefore, the classification “clinical trial” is more a matter of nomenclature than true statistical similarity. In this context, a well-trained neural network would objectively classify universities as high-IQ societies.

The crux of this is: why do people on the outside respect, value, and desire to enter universities, and virtually all potentially qualified people (or at least the overwhelming majority of them) are interested and striving to enter universities, while only a very small fraction of the people who qualify for high IQ societies are interested in participating? There are 160,000,000 people potentially eligible for Mensa, Sigma, High Potential Society, etc., yet only less than 150,000 are affiliated with one of these entities. I believe this is a fundamental issue that needs to be discussed and needs to be better understood, to try to eliminate the problems that make high-IQ societies not attractive, respected or valued by the general population. Correctly enumerating these problems in order of importance and planning efficient and feasible solutions seems to me to be one of the main objectives, if not the main one, of high-IQ societies for a short, medium and long term future. I don’t think the objective should be to “imitate” the universities, but to try to complement and harmonize with the objectives of the universities. In this sense, I see two important and low-cost preliminary paths:

To perform the role of monitoring and evaluating the quality of professionals, entities, etc., issuing quality seals, rankings of competence, etc.
Acting in the connection between highly qualified professionals and companies, and/or between talented entrepreneurs and investors.

Universities themselves also play these two roles, but not their main focus, and the criteria they use are not always the most appropriate. So there is a serious gap there that could and should be filled, and high-IQ societies may be equipped for that. As a result, high IQ societies can earn the respect and admiration of the community, gain greater visibility and attract the interest of notable members, large numbers of other members, investors/sponsors, the media, etc.

Roberts (Oceania): I’m not aware of any groups based in Oceania that are not international by nature, rather than being locally-focused. Limited numbers and huge distances restrict any face-to-face meetings. If there are any online meetings, I regret, I have not been invited (which could be for many reasons, of course – but seriously, I doubt their existence).

Rosner (North America): The issues for high-I.Q. people based on me and the people I met is how to get a fucking girlfriend. Movies of the ’80s about high school tended to follow the formula that there’s a sensitive, smart, nice guy who just wants to get a girlfriend, but the girl or girls that he wants are all hooked up with thuggish high school athletes. But by the end, somebody has realized the worth of the sensitive guy and became his girlfriend. I think this was the formula for Revenge of the Nerds.

There was another movie called Lucas that broke the formula. A girl, who had her jock boyfriend, began to value Lucas. This on the spectrum-ish awkward kid. She valued him. She wasn’t going to hook up with him. She was going to hook up with her jock boyfriend, who was going to prove himself by not being a dick to Lucas. The dynamic was the same. That’s how I felt in the ’70s and ’80s. Can’t somebody be my girlfriend? I have all this shit going for me. I am smart, sensitive, and funny. Eventually, I did the work to get a girlfriend. It involved a lot of stuff that wasn’t dependent on focusing on my I.Q.

I would say that in organizations like Mensa. There’s a certain incel factor and has been, and was, 50 years before the word incel came to exist, which is short for involuntary celibate. Guys who lean on their I.Q. as a point of pride, probably, lack the social cues and social skills to do really well with girls.

Udbjørg (Africa): [See first response.]

Zietsman (Africa): The biggest current issue is with the financial management and general administration of Mensa. We used to be a lot more observant of best practice than we are now.

We also had many problems around testing. Firstly international Mensa phased out the Ravens because of the Flynn Effect – although I did raise our cut-off to keep it at the 2% level – and then replaced it with a similar German test that had a woefully inadequate ceiling. Secondly, one particular former National Chairman wants to do away with our verbal test on the grounds that it is biased, even though the non-verbal test is at least as biased. Thirdly, this same person ended our practice of telling people their estimated IQ, or even keeping records of actual scores, claiming that lots of people don’t want to know their IQ and that knowledge of differences within Mensa are divisive. I’m pretty sure that the “lots of people” is just her. In other words I think we have a problem with decent tests and issues around testing (and that there are more attacks coming.)

We also had fights over an online discussion forum, e.g., over whether it is limited to paid up members and just how pro free speech it was. Basically politics.

Yu (Asia): a) a late start (Shenghan was founded in 2012.6), resulting in the absence of much infrastructure, and the association’s connection with its members staying only in online chat groups and certificates; b) an absence in the world intellectual community, without Mensa China, and probably not in the future, it is difficult for tests by Chinese authors to circulate internationally, despite the very high quality of their questions (Mahir Wu, Junlong Li, Fengzhi Wu, etc.); c) there is no standardized and stable system, no recognition in Chinese society, no outside support, and these high IQs cannot be recognized, supported and guaranteed through the community; d) the leading association (Shenghan, GFIS) does not play a role in developing the IQ community, and Shenghan is very dedicated in charging fees, and has been charging for 10 years, enriching millions of RMB. GFIS is relatively free of frivolous fees, and although it has made many attempts at positive publicity (self-promotion, TV programs), they have all failed, ultimately due to the lack of capacity of the president; e) the phenomenon of climbing in IQ scores is more serious in Asia, and it is a disaster area for cheating, where people will do anything to get high scores; f) the community has become less active, with fewer activities than before. There are barriers and divisions between different associations, which are not conducive to unification.

Comparatively speaking, the Japanese high IQ community is doing the best in the Asian region, in line with international standards (the World Intellectual Forum is very active and well known), with good organization and social support (https://www.hiqa.or.jp/), but there is a lack of good authors and tests. I think each country’s IQ community should give priority to promoting their own country’s excellent work, if they do not embrace their own country’s IQ community tests, then who else will?

Jacobsen: What are the positive aspects of the high-I.Q. communities in your region of the world?

Jørgensen (Europe): As mentioned earlier, Europe’s high IQ community is a highly active one, with innovative initiatives constantly being implemented by the intent for pure blissfulness for its communities’ members. Detailed laid out as follows, whereby; the steady creation of new and existing high range IQ-tests is being added to the various test sites, furthered by the establishment of new high IQ communities with a more various and exiting content for even the most delicate of pallets. Finally, the publication of community social engaging articles followed up by YouTube streams purposely laid out for the distributing of information of high intelligence assets for all its community members.

Melão Jr. (Latin America): Compared to other regions, I don’t think there is anything particularly positive about South America. We have some positives that are also typical of high IQ societies in all other regions, we have some problems that are perhaps also common in Africa (perhaps more severe there), and we have the language disadvantage compared to South Africa. , as only a small fraction of the best books and best scientific channels are available in Portuguese. Most people in all non -English- speaking countries in the world learn English as a second language, this has a growing need and maybe it will continue to be so, but maybe this paradigm will change in the coming decades, with the growth of China, India. Maybe this change won’t happen, because the English language has already established itself as a very strong tradition and maybe a few decades won’t change that, even if China surpasses the US or even if there was an economic collapse of the US, as happened with the USSR in 1991. And this is very unlikely over a 50-year time horizon, because the US has an important advantage that no other country has ever had: the dollar is used as an international reserve currency, and this gives the US excessive power in cases like the 2008 subprime crisis, in which the US should have “broken” as in the 1929 crisis and gone through 5 to 10 years of recovery, however they “patched” the problem simply by printing money. No other country in the world would have a similar resource available. If the USSR of 1991 had a similar power, even with all the management mistakes made, they wouldn’t have broken either. This immunity from punishment for serious errors can pose a very great danger, in addition to promoting unfair competition. Even if China manages to produce more, better and cheaper than the US, they would still need to overcome other barriers. So maybe the world language will still be English for more than a century, maybe several centuries. And countries where a large part of the population is not fluent in English, access to cutting-edge knowledge and good quality knowledge is severely hampered. The rapid evolution of automatic translation systems should greatly alleviate this problem in just 10 years, but the path these translation systems are taking fails at critical points for high-level translations, which require rigor and accuracy in detail. Translations are fine for typical communication if the person orders food over the Internet and doesn’t know the language, but in a complex debate or rigorous formal logical demonstration, automatic traction is contaminated with many imprecise details.

Another problem is abusive import fees, abusive taxes, etc. When taxes are high, but the money raised is reverted to the benefit of the population, although it can generate a feeling of injustice in some people who produced more than they received, there is a relief to know that other people who need it more are receiving support from the State to prevent them from lacking the minimum resources for a dignified and healthy life. The problem is when a significant fraction of those taxes are diverted into the pockets of politicians. This has been a common problem in South America and Africa. A car in Brazil costs ~3x more than the same car in the US, but the per capita income in Brazil is 1/7 of the per capita income in the US. So you pay ~20x more. When one considers that the Gini index in Brazil is around 50, this is particularly serious, because as income distribution is very unequal, only a small part of the population has access to basic technological resources. It is completely absurd, because in addition to the country not producing essential items with acceptable quality, it also makes importation difficult, leaving a large part of the population trapped in Prehistory, eventually reaching the Middle Ages. Only a small fraction of the population has access to contemporary technology, contemporary medical treatments, etc. This applies to many technology products. If you try to import by buying on eBay or Amazon, for example, an import tax of 60% + IMCS + COFINS + IPI + other taxes is applied, in cascade, which are applied to the value of the product + the value of shipping. In 2016 I paid 2.8 times the advertised price for a Celestron 102 GT telescope and in 2019 I paid 4.4 times for a Meade 10” LX 200 (due to higher freight by weight). In addition to not having good quality products produced in the region, there is a lot of bureaucracy and a lot of financial abuse to import products from other countries, including scientific and educational products.

In some Latin American countries, some of these problems do not exist, or they do exist, but they are not so serious. In Paraguay, import taxes are lower. In Uruguay, Chile, Argentina there is a more cultural environment than in Brazil. But on average in South America, the situation is similar or worse than in Brazil. These scientific, educational, economic and cultural problems contaminate all other sectors, and high-IQ societies are not immune. The waste of young talent that occurs in these regions is regrettable. In 2004, I had a dramatic conversation with Edmilson Motta, who was training Brazil’s representatives for the International Mathematical Olympiads, about a boy named Renato Francisco Lopes Mello, who was champion of the Brazilian Mathematical Olympiad. He lived in a very poor region, in a city called Lagoa do Carro, and we were trying to find a solution so that he could stay studying in São Paulo, but we couldn’t. He must have had an IQ of over 170, maybe over 180. Even without training and with access to little material, he had some impressive results. It would be important that there were mechanisms for people like him to receive support from the government so that he and his family could move to urban centers where they could have access to good training, under the guidance of trained educators. I believe that other regions are also affected by similar problems, but in the poorest and least developed countries this problem is more serious. In the USA, the Hollingworth Institute has an interesting theoretical proposal, but in practice it seems that the scope is not very large and the number of children who receive it is small. Perhaps China is the country that has been treating this issue with the greatest seriousness and competence in recent decades, and achieving compatible results.

I ended up using the question where I should talk about advantages to point out more disadvantages, but this is inevitable, as efforts to try to identify some advantage would produce biased results, distorting reality.

Roberts (Oceania): There are zero such communities, so far as I am aware…

Rosner (North America): My friend, Chris Cole, used ultra-high-I.Q. tests as a talent search to find smart people who may have been overlooked. I was one of those people. He helped me along. He has helped other people along to successful lives that they may not have otherwise had. That seems like a reasonable use of I.Q. But we’re probably kind of past that window of just taking an I.Q. test and somebody discovering you.

Although, I think we’re entering a similar window given that the internet and your devices and the world of machine learning is increasingly able to build a profile of you based on the droppings you leave via your activities and social media postings. I would expect some people to get recruited based on their social media presence or their presence across not just social media, but use of other apps and stuff.

I know of several people who got hired to write for late night comedy shows and T.V. comedies based on their tweets. When God shuts the I.Q. window, she opens up the post a lot of shit window, and, maybe, somebody will notice.

Udbjørg (Africa): [See first response.]

Zietsman (Africa): Just having a convenient way of meeting, talking to, and socializing with, other high IQ people is a major plus. The formal meeting with speaker aspect of Mensa SA is also a positive in my view. It keeps us abreast of things and also helps market Mensa.

Yu (Asia): a) What makes me happier about the Chinese community is the high level of support for domestic authors, and these authors live up to expectations, and are among the international leaders in terms of question quality, scale and data, especially in numerical tests, which I have not yet seen any country’s authors to match; b) The youth of the Asian intellectual community is also an advantage compared to the European and American intellectual communities. The average age of the members of the European and American communities is generally older, which is related to their earlier development, while the youthfulness of the members of the Asian community also provides more possibilities for the intellectual community; c) the quality of tests in the Asian intellectual community is generally high, I have previously analyzed well-known tests, such as SLSE, Ivan’s, there are more loopholes in their tests, and in the past well-known authors, such as Coojimans, Betts, these authors with high recognition, the items are also more subjective, tending to screen for high IQs that meet their own criteria, rather than objectively screening for high IQs in particula. But in today’s Asian community, Japan and China both have what I consider to be very talented authors whose items are not only rigorous, but also have their own ideas and creativity, which is very rare. The future also needs more deep thinking tests as the main recognition criteria, these tests mainly win in the depth of thinking, not by piling up logic to increase the difficulty; d) Asian community members have a stronger sense of belonging, allowing more lonely people to come together.

Jacobsen: What are the newest projects and upcoming developments in the high-I.Q. communities in your region of the world?

Jørgensen (Europe): I will make the following statement by a fervent hope; that a continuation of these interviews will be extended further with reference to me and you (Scott Jacobsen), in the same format as to the previous individual/group interviews. Furthermore, I will try to expand my promotional initiatives by a more hands-on interactive interview setting and hopefully with your help, establish these interviews into a book format someday soon, fingers crossed. What I also feel obligated to add, is as my previous stated desire proclaimed, the dire need for a unified consolidation between general the high IQ community and Mensa International community.

Melão Jr. (Latin America): I recently founded the Immortal Society, a group that aims to bring together intellectual exponents interested in solving the problem of death. https://www.sigmasociety.net/homeimmortal.

Roberts (Oceania): None that I am aware of. It may appear from my answers that I am totally ignorant of any happenings in Oceania, or that they are non-existent. Both of these alternatives are possible, of course.

Rosner (North America): I don’t know. I would assume not much. I would assume some societies like Mensa are scrambling to stay relevant. I haven’t read of any projects. Every once in a while, you’ll read about the youngest person to ever qualify for Mensa, which is a stab at getting some PR having found a 3-year-old who can test well. I’m not aware of any big push. There is the push by Mega, the Mega Society, to come up with a test that could measure up to the Mega level and wouldn’t be a fucking ordeal to take because the original Mega Test. I spent 100-110 hours on it. That’s a bad recruitment tool because nobody is going to spend that much time.

There is a push within Mega to come up with a test that takes less time and also can’t be cheated on because it gives each person taking the test a different set of problems. The problems are similar in principle, but they have variables messed around with. So, knowing the answer to one version of a test problem won’t necessarily help you figure out the answer to your version of the problem, the people working on this have been working on this for more than a decade with some results.

But I don’t know if they will have the widespread exposure that the Mega Test got when it was published in Omni Magazine and more than 4,000 people took the test via Omni.

Udbjørg (Africa): [See first response.]

Zietsman (Africa): I can’t really answer this now because I have been relatively uninvolved for a number of years. I hope there are some good plans afoot but I rather suspect that we can expect further negative moves from the current leadership.

None that I am aware of. It may appear from my answers that I am totally ignorant of any happenings in Oceania, or that they are non-existent. Both of these alternatives are possible, of course.

Yu (Asia): The Chinese intellectual community may lead to a big reform, God’s power (GSP) will welcome Chen-Ning Yang’s joining in 6.20, this step is the first step of the Chinese intellectual community to elite system, later there will be more people with high social influence to join GSP, we will make the Chinese intellectual community and society highly connected, for example, we intend to use the name of GSP to publish papers in international journals, etc., so that GSP can become an elite group, leading high IQ people to give full play to their talents, and more to promote social development. For example, we intend to publish papers in international journals under the name of GSP and so on, so that GSP can become an elite group, leading people with high IQ to give full play to their talents and promote social development more.

Footnotes

[1] Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies, including World Genius Directory, NOUS High IQ Society, 6N High IQ Society just to name a few. Tor Arne was also in 2019, nominated for the World Genius Directory 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe. He is also the designer of the high range test site; www.toriqtests.com.

[2] Hindemburg Melão Jr. is the author of solutions to scientific and mathematical problems that have remained unsolved for decades or centuries, including improvements on works by 5 Nobel laureates, holder of a world record in longest announced checkmate in blindfold simultaneous chess games, registered in the Guinness Book 1998, author of the Sigma Test Extended and founder of some high IQ societies.

[3] Tim Roberts self-describes in “A Brief and Almost True Biography” as follows: I was definitely born lower-middle class. Britain was (and probably still is) so stratified that one’s status could be easily classified. You were only working class if you lived in Scotland or Wales, or in the north of England, or had a really physical job like dustbin-man. You were only middle class if you lived in the south, had a decent-sized house, probably with a mortgage, and at work you had to use your brain, at least a little. My mother was at the upper end of lower-middle class, my father at the lower. After suffering through the first twenty years of my life because of various deleterious genetically-acquired traits, which resulted in my being very small and very sickly, and a regular visitor to hospitals, I became almost normal in my 20s, and found work in the computer industry. I was never very good, but demand in those days was so high for anyone who knew what a computer was that I turned freelance, specializing in large IBM mainframe operating systems, and could often choose from a range of job opportunities. As far away as possible sounded good, so I went to Australia, where I met my wife, and have lived all the latter half of my life. Being inherently lazy, I discovered academia, and spent 30 years as a lecturer, at three different universities. Whether I actually managed to teach anyone anything is a matter of some debate. The maxim “publish or perish” ruled, so I spent an inordinate amount of time writing crap papers on online education, which required almost no effort. My thoughts, however, were always centred on such pretentious topics as quantum theory and consciousness and the nature of reality. These remain my over-riding interest today, some five years after retirement. I have a reliance on steroids and Shiraz, and possess an IQ the size of a small planet, because I am quite good at solving puzzles of no importance, but I have no useful real-world skills whatsoever. I used to know a few things, but I have forgotten most of them.”

[4] Rick G. Rosner, according to some semi-reputable sources gathered in a listing here, may have among America’s, North America’s, and the world’s highest measured IQs at or above 190 (S.D. 15)/196 (S.D. 16) based on several high range test performances created by Christopher Harding, Jason Betts, Paul Cooijmans, and Ronald Hoeflin. He earned 12 years of college credit in less than a year and graduated with the equivalent of 8 majors. He has received 8 Writers Guild Awards and Emmy nominations, and was titled 2013 North American Genius of the Year by The World Genius Directory with the main “Genius” listing here. He has written for Remote Control, Crank Yankers, The Man Show, The Emmys, The Grammys, and Jimmy Kimmel Live!. He worked as a bouncer, a nude art model, a roller-skating waiter, and a stripper. In a television commercial, Domino’s Pizza named him the “World’s Smartest Man.” The commercial was taken off the air after Subway sandwiches issued a cease-and-desist. He was named “Best Bouncer” in the Denver Area, Colorado, by Westwood Magazine. Rosner spent much of the late Disco Era as an undercover high school student. In addition, he spent 25 years as a bar bouncer and American fake ID-catcher, and 25+ years as a stripper, and nearly 30 years as a writer for more than 2,500 hours of network television. Errol Morris featured Rosner in the interview series entitled First Person, where some of this history was covered by Morris. He came in second, or lost, on Jeopardy!, sued Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? over a flawed question and lost the lawsuit. He won one game and lost one game on Are You Smarter Than a Drunk Person? (He was drunk). Finally, he spent 37+ years working on a time-invariant variation of the Big Bang Theory. Currently, Rosner sits tweeting in a bathrobe (winter) or a towel (summer). He lives in Los Angeles, California with his wife, dog, and goldfish. He and his wife have a daughter. You can send him money or questions at LanceVersusRick@Gmail.Com, or a direct message via Twitter, or find him on LinkedIn, or see him on YouTube.

[5] David Udbjørg, self-described as follows, “Danish/American, Norwegian in my childhood. Married, 4 kids, and a similar amount of grandkids. Master in Architecture from The Royal Academy of Fine Arts in Copenhagen. Lived in seven countries, worked in 30+ and traveled, what equals 36 times around the globe. Fairly OK with Scandinavian languages, English, German and French, other languages less so. Worked, with architecture, sustainability, energy efficiency, 3D visualizations and auto destructible syringes, competition design and lots of other things. Currently, working as an Architect at the Danish Ministry of Foreign Affairs, taking good care of the Danish embassies around the World. Made a few inventions; a foot operated pointing device and an auto destructible syringe (none of them went into productions). I have stared many different projects, where the most important ones are co-instigator of ‘Architects Without Borders’, still in action, Instigator of a public contemporary art gallery, which has been running for 40 + years and ‘High IQ for Humanity’ (HIQH), which is now defunct. As an artist, I have exhibited in several countries, but mostly in Denmark. I make paintings, both portraits and contemporary. Stained glass, bronze, furniture’s, deconstructions and mixed medias, as well. I have written a couple of books and composed a few pieces of music. I am board member, at the Art club of the Danish Ministry of Foreign affairs, and I like to consider myself a skilled photographer and videographer. I have sold my work to ‘Un Explained’ and ‘Ancient Aliens’ and I have been features on CNN ‘Inside Africa’ with my visits to garbage dumps in Africa. As an adventurer, I am mostly focusing on indigenous tribes, garbage dumps, ship breaking places, funerals, medicine men and oracles, but I also like to visit schools and kindergartens in developing countries, occasionally I visit volcanos and caves as well. I’m one of the very few Scandinavian members of ‘Los Angeles Adventurers Club’.”

[6] Garth Zietsman is a member of the Mega Society with experience in Africa, particularly South Africa.

[7] Tianxi Yu (余天曦) is a Member of God’s Power, CatholIQ, Chinese Genius Directory, EsoterIQ Society, Nano Society, and World Genius Directory.

[8] Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 1: Tor Arne Jørgensen, Hindemburg Melão Jr., Tim Roberts, Rick Rosner, David Udbjørg, Garth Zietsman, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on the State of the High-I.Q.[Online]. July 2022; 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 1). Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 1: Tor Arne Jørgensen, Hindemburg Melão Jr., Tim Roberts, Rick Rosner, David Udbjørg, Garth Zietsman, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on the State of the High-I.Q.. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 1: Tor Arne Jørgensen, Hindemburg Melão Jr., Tim Roberts, Rick Rosner, David Udbjørg, Garth Zietsman, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on the State of the High-I.Q.. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 1: Tor Arne Jørgensen, Hindemburg Melão Jr., Tim Roberts, Rick Rosner, David Udbjørg, Garth Zietsman, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on the State of the High-I.Q..” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 1: Tor Arne Jørgensen, Hindemburg Melão Jr., Tim Roberts, Rick Rosner, David Udbjørg, Garth Zietsman, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on the State of the High-I.Q..” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 1: Tor Arne Jørgensen, Hindemburg Melão Jr., Tim Roberts, Rick Rosner, David Udbjørg, Garth Zietsman, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on the State of the High-I.Q.’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 1: Tor Arne Jørgensen, Hindemburg Melão Jr., Tim Roberts, Rick Rosner, David Udbjørg, Garth Zietsman, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on the State of the High-I.Q.’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 1: Tor Arne Jørgensen, Hindemburg Melão Jr., Tim Roberts, Rick Rosner, David Udbjørg, Garth Zietsman, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on the State of the High-I.Q..” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.D (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Intercontinental High-I.Q. Forum 1: Tor Arne Jørgensen, Hindemburg Melão Jr., Tim Roberts, Rick Rosner, David Udbjørg, Garth Zietsman, and Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on the State of the High-I.Q.[Internet]. (2022, July 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/iq-forum-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-07-01

Schooling the Young 2: Tor Arne Jorgensen on Non-Intellectual Qualities

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 871

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies, including World Genius Directory, NOUS High IQ Society, 6N High IQ Society just to name a few. Tor Arne was also in 2019, nominated for the World Genius Directory 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe. He is also the designer of the high range test site; www.toriqtests.com. He discusses: education; a new cohort of students; build a rapport; identifying the more astute students; teaching; teachers get good or stay bad at teaching young students; the most difficult; encourage good behaviour; and deal with highly difficult students.

Keywords: character, education, normalization, schooling, the young, Tor Arne Jorgensen.

Schooling the Young 2: Tor Arne Jorgensen on Non-Intellectual Qualities

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Non-intellectual aptitudes may serve the generic student throughout the lifespan more than any other form of education. Intellectual gifts are one aspect. There are numerous proposals for them. However, as with any teacher, you’ll work with a wide variety of students. Boundaries, compassion, friendship, forgiveness, self-efficacy, even learning to grieve, will serve them in life more and fit under the heading “Education” more than anything else. An education directed toward character rather than intellect: Character counts. A simple act of forgiving wrongs against you, setting boundaries from those who wronged you, and moving forward with self-efficacy, will provide a richer sense of an actualized life than knowing the names and locations of all the capitals and cities in the world, which will, more often than not, be forgotten and can be looked up. Similarly, the ability properly to know grief: Death. An inevitability of life’s end, of those around oneself and of oneself. Grief will come; knowledge of how to grieve loss can help in a similar manner to forgiveness, boundaries, and moving forward. Or humour, of one’s idiocy and of others’, too, whether in misunderstandings and no second chances for clarification, or the everyday stuff and keeping oneself together, or, unfortunately, the occasional intellectual and life catastrophe, they happen. Humour contextualizes. We’ve all experienced these things. I’m laughing at myself building an IKEA bookshelf today, for example. How do you educate the character of students?

Tor Arne Jorgensen: Building one’s character must then be statute to be the parent’s primary fundamental function, in which the functional aesthetically charismatic of one’s characters are being transferred as for the premises through equalization. The schools of today have sad but true, become the subject of a dualistic transformation, whereby both prosocial behavior change, and now academic enrichment go hand in hand. What can then be said about the handling of the fostering a character, is in the awareness of the self. This proof can only be triggered in the state it allows itself to exist.

The basis for this is formulated of: Who am I, who do I want to appear as, what do I want in life, who are my friends, and am I real? When these formulations are being answered and accepted as absolute values, then the true character of the self is visualized. Not an easy task for any teacher alone, but made possible with the collaboration with primary institutions, this is where the real work is done, only by the extension of the primary institutions.

Jacobsen: Do you humanize yourself in the process of education? Bring yourself to the metaphorical ground, not become artificially relatable – so corny, but to be real with students – but not gritty.

Jorgensen: Being viewed upon as genuine through one’s actions, is seen as an absolute core value for me in the pursuit for mutual understanding and respect. False facades whipped up by false idols are to be regarded with pure contempt, as they are only destructive cowering’s of both social / professional bearing fundamentals.

Jacobsen: What values seem most pertinent to the life of a young person in the classroom with them?

Jorgensen: Friendship, affirming old ones and connecting new ones.

Jacobsen: Some students can be excluded for developmental delays or particular disabilities. How do you work within this context with students and the student with delays or disabilities? Obviously, it’s more sensitive and a more effortful process.

Jorgensen: The challenges that will then follow these types of students, will then be first associated with a test regime, which then again decides whether or not to introduce various measures regarding the need for special education, whereby specific teaching arrangements are adapted to their level of learning. There are 2 ways this is done mainly. Either these students in the classroom are on an equal footing with the other normally functioning students, or group compositions with equal students are used in group rooms with a special educator.

When using a normal class function, an individual training plan is prepared for the student or students that this may apply to, and then becomes the leading factor for what type of teaching aids that will then be used in accordance with the original facilitated plan and have the approval of the school’s special education coordinator. This is a standard procedure, where after a review of each completed term. New assessments are being reevaluated as to customize a new training material, and lastly at the last term is over a final report is written to see if the plan that was originally set up worked as intended or not, which is then brought with further in the teaching process for the student or students to whom this may then apply.

Jacobsen: Different students will have different life difficulties, potentially, as with developmental delays and disabilities. Do you find yourself emphasizing some values more than others with these students and other students in relation with them (and vice versa)?

Jorgensen: No will not say that the way for me is to normalize as far as possible, their schooling with special students in mind, and the rest of the students. A most normal, is clearly preferable for all parties, it avoids unwanted visibility and possibility for stigma.

Footnotes

[1] Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Schooling the Young 2: Tor Arne Jorgensen on Non-Intellectual Qualities [Online]. July 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 1). Schooling the Young 2: Tor Arne Jorgensen on Non-Intellectual Qualities. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Schooling the Young 2: Tor Arne Jorgensen on Non-Intellectual Qualities. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Schooling the Young 2: Tor Arne Jorgensen on Non-Intellectual Qualities.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Schooling the Young 2: Tor Arne Jorgensen on Non-Intellectual Qualities.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Schooling the Young 2: Tor Arne Jorgensen on Non-Intellectual Qualities’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Schooling the Young 2: Tor Arne Jorgensen on Non-Intellectual Qualities’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Schooling the Young 2: Tor Arne Jorgensen on Non-Intellectual Qualities.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Schooling the Young 2: Tor Arne Jorgensen on Non-Intellectual Qualities [Internet]. (2022, July 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-07-01

Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,567

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Bob Williams is a Member of the Triple Nine Society, Mensa International, and the International Society for Philosophical Enquiry. He discusses: schizotypal traits; schizotypal personality traits and temperament; the prominent tests of creativity; impulsively nonconformist and prone to divergent thought; measuring creativity; creativity over the lifespan; BigC (true genius); Johnson and Bouchard; negative correlation between very high levels of creativity and very high levels of intelligence in brain efficiency; PFIT; Wai, Lubinsky, and Benbow; Rex Jung; Arthur Jensen; original creative insights into a unified work; developmental cascade effects; drugs; true genius tend to isolation; true genius tend towards no progeny; high intelligence or high creativity; cold hard truths; countries leaders.

Keywords: Arthur Jensen, Benbow, Bob Williams, Bouchard, creativity, genius, intelligence, I.Q., Johnson, Lubinski, PFIT, Rex Jung, schizotypy, Wai.

Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With schizotypal traits and temperament as an association with creativity, is it possible to parse schizotypal traits into the individual traits to associate with some common, accepted definitions of creativity?

Bob Williams[1],[2]*: Schizotypy is associated with verbal and artistic creativity. There are presumably some who have, nonetheless, shown a more technical form of creativity. John Nash, comes to mind. The form of schizophrenia known as Introvertive Anhedonia is negatively associated with creativity. The commonly found association between schizotypy and creativity is that there is a reduced latent inhibition.

Measuring and predicting outcomes relating to creativity is more difficult than doing those things relative to intelligence, because intelligence is a very general trait that is well understood structurally (as in a hierarchical factor analysis). The thing that schizophrenia and intelligence have in common is that they are both additive polygenic traits and, therefore, can be measured via polygenic scores. The best material I have seen on the genetics of traits is Robert Plomin Blueprint: How DNA Makes Us Who We Are, Penguin Books Ltd., 2018. Plomin mentioned that today schizophrenia, like autism, is treated as a spectrum. In this book, Plomin commented: “In several diverse populations the researchers found that people with high polygenic scores for schizophrenia were more likely to be in creative professions.”

It is my understanding that the ratio of highly creative people with schizophrenia to noncreative people with schizophrenia is small. Even so there is a clear link.

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, if we do so, what do particular parsed aspects of schizotypal personality traits and temperament tell us about their association or correlation with creativity?

Williams: As I mentioned in the first answer, most important link is a lowered inhibitory function. This particular trait is discussed repeatedly in The Cambridge Handbook of the Neuroscience of Creativity (2018) Rex E. Jung (Editor), Oshin Vartanian (Editor). But, if you ask a psychologist about the traits associated with schizophrenia, he will probably list other behaviors, such as hallucinations, disorganized thinking, extremely disorganized or abnormal motor behavior, thought and movement disorders, etc.

This is a related, side topic: In the book referenced above, Kyaga mentioned that people majoring in technical fields, more often than others, had siblings with autism. This suggests a path from a spectrum behavior that involves shared genes that lead to elevated ability in those who share the genes, but where the spectrum disorder prevents it from showing up in the affected (autistic) person. There may be a similar finding relative to creativity and schizophrenia. In fact there may be good studies of such a relationship, but I have either not seen them or have forgotten the source.

I think the best way to describe the relationships between schizophrenia and creativity is to note that among true geniuses, elevated levels of schizophrenia are helpful or even essential. But if one observes the presence of schizophrenia in an individual, there is not the same high probability (the presence of high creativity). To me, the zones between the elevated levels of psychosis and neurosis (per Hans Eysenck) and elevated standing on the schizophrenia spectrum seem to be either overlapping or identical.

Jacobsen: Do any of the prominent tests of creativity truly measure creativity? Are these reliable and valid, or simply leaving more questions unanswered?

Williams: The answer to that question strikes me as depending on the perspective of the observer. In the most basic sense, the tests of creativity consist of tests of remote association, fluency, divergent thinking, etc., which are not direct measures of creativity. From the perspective of a researcher who wants a wide range of abilities shown (low to high ability), the Torrance Tests of Creative Thinking (and similar tests) produces this kind of measurement. This is where the issue of artistic creativity and scientific creativity can be seen. A test, such as the TTCT will produce similar results for people in science or in arts, so the researcher may be quite happy with the results as measuring “creativity,” even when the kinds of creativity are very different.

Although some researchers argue that intelligence is a factor in creativity, the more important factor is personality, as measured by the Big Five. The most important of these five is Openness to experience and Conscientiousness (a negative indicator).

For the record, a few of the other tests that are used for measuring creativity:

Divergent Thinking (a general category)

Remote Associations Test (a general category)

Creative Personality Scale

Creative Achievement Questionnaire (CAQ; a selfreport)

Jacobsen: If someone is impulsively nonconformist and prone to divergent thought patterns, do these necessarily imply a higher creativity?

Williams: I think the answer is “not.” As with other behavioral relationships, there is a statistically higher probability of the cooccurrence of nonconformity and creativity, but I doubt that this is a necessary pair. Sometimes we see the unusual behavior and tend to generalize it, while we simultaneously ignore normal behavior paired with creativity (or another variable). When ability increases to the point of astonishing achievement (creativity), I expect that the odds of seeing very unusual behaviors increases to the point that there is at least some present. It is difficult to reach a confident conclusion about such trait correlations without proper statistical studies to show how strong an effect is and how it may vary between groups and life conditions. Most educated people are familiar with a lot of the names of artistic and scientific geniuses, but may not know the details of their lives.

Another aspect of behaviors is that, if we look closely at individuals we would consider to be not extreme, everyday folks, we would still find lots of unusual behaviors, including some that might happen more often among highly creative people. My take on Plomin’s comments about spectrums of traits is that these apply to many of the things we observe in both exceptional and “normal” people.

Jacobsen: If experts are measuring creativity or proposing measurements for creativity within the human population, technically, these could be scaled for comparison, not necessarily a Gaussian curve or something like this, but this seems like a natural consequence. Some people score higher on a creativity measurement than others, whether quantitative or qualitative, so would count as more creative. Yet, the question arises about lifespan effects. In that, some aspects of creativity may decline over time, remain stagnant, or may increase over time. In principle, is ranking creativity a prospect before us?

Williams: Any test that has some validity in measuring creativity will produce a distribution. The exact shape of the distribution may vary as a function of how the test is designed and the population to which it is applied. I have never seen a creativity distribution curve, such as the ones that are commonly shown in intelligence literature. If we think about the likely output of a biographical list of honors received for creative work, I would expect that it would show a near zero value for most people and only show positive results for people who are obviously creative. In the sense that we can see creativity, it mirrors intelligence in the sense that it is not hard to identify someone who is shockingly brilliant or who is obviously retarded. Tests are not needed and even middle level effects (above or below average) are obvious enough that our observations are unlikely to vary much from measurements. In the case of creativity, I think someone can easily see brilliant composition and see that most people show much less ability.

Jacobsen: What happens to creativity over the lifespan?

Williams: Age effects presumably show up in various categories of creativity. It certainly happens in scientific creativity. As for artistic creativity, I am less confident that it is a strong effect. It is easy enough to recall conductors who continued to perform with little decline in quality, up to near the end of their lives. I can think of some classical music performers who did much the same. The things that the brain has to do to create art are certainly different than the things it has to do to write and solve equations that describe the physical universe. We see that Nobel Prizes (in science) are overwhelmingly given for work that was done early in life. Einstein’s Miracle Year (1905) included four profound papers that changed physics; he was 26 years old.

Jacobsen: Who does Piffer count as BigC (true genius)? What are his examples of ProC via professions and creative people in them?

Williams: I recall a mention of a few true geniuses in a paper that was probably Piffer, but I don’t know if I still have it or not. The ProC category includes both the arts and the sciences. Most people are more familiar with the true geniuses in the arts and sciences. ProC, as I understand his meaning, is a category that is not about genius, but about people who are able to have successful careers that are based on their high levels of creativity. The names of these people will be known to many of their career peers, but not to the general public. Those who are widely known are usually those who were closely covered by the news media (various reasons, often unrelated to their actual creative output).

Jacobsen: Akin to Johnson and Bouchard’s work showing the top 5 g loadings, does a similar factorization exist for creativity within measurements of creativity? This is a helpful representation of an advancement on the research of g, as 1) a factor in life and 2) a consistently measurable phenomenon in global information processing within the remit of the human nervous system.

Williams: As we discussed in an earlier set, Piffer has argued that a general factor is unlikely. Researchers have done principal components analysis and factor analysis relating to creativity, but I have not seen claims that they have found and shown expert agreement that there is a general factor. These have clusters of related traits that might define a factor that is common to the clustered components. Certainly, there is little mention of a general factor in the creativity literature. There is more support for a general factor of personality (Rushton was writing about this near the end of his life.), but papers on personality are not focused on a general factor of personality in the same way as is common in intelligence research.

Intelligence is powerfully related to quality of life and achievement. At low IQ, life outcomes can be harsh, but this doesn’t happen for low creativity. A person with very little creative ability may still have a happy and productive life, unless that lack of creativity is the direct result of low intelligence. Creativity matters when it is high enough to sustain a livelihood or to produce an eminent artist, engineer, or scientist (as we previously discussed). Below the Pro-C level creativity is much less important at the individual level.

Relating to Johnson and Bouchard’s work, I learned something from Wendy Johnson that I had previously overlooked. The loading of a given factor is dependent on the structure of the test from which it was extracted. For example, if there are more or fewer test items that relate to a given broad ability, that broad ability will show a higher or lower g loading. This explains some of the differences that are reported for the g loadings of various factors. In their work, Johnson and Bouchard used the largest battery of tests that has ever been reported and extracted a structure of intelligence that is probably the most true to nature that exists. The reason I was discussing this with Wendy was that I was curious about the high g loading of the Pedigrees test. Bouchard mentioned the test multiple times as the highest g loading of any test. I later discussed it with him and learned how the test works and that it dates back to the relatively early days of intelligence test development.

Jacobsen: Could there be a negative correlation between very high levels of creativity and very high levels of intelligence in brain efficiency? Where, a highly intelligent brain uses less energy than a less intelligent one to come to a more parsimonious answer to a problem. Whereas, a highly creative person may require more resources burned in their brain to construct more elaborate novel constructs. If so, this would imply a disjunction between high intelligence and high creativity. Unless, a highly intelligent brain with high creativity, somehow, does require less energy than a highly intelligent and less creative person, but still would need less to get a creative result than an unintelligent person with high creativity.

Williams: That’s an interesting thought. I don’t think there are any studies of glucose metabolism as a function of creative output. I think the problem lies in the nature of the end product. In the case of intelligence, Haier’s work shows that more efficient brains are more intelligent. This initial hypothesis has turned out to be a general condition in which various measures of brain efficiency show that high efficiency (in networks, tissue integrity, etc.) is an indication of high intelligence. These observations necessarily apply to narrow tests, such as doing a puzzle, and not to complex end results, such as designing a rocket engine or writing artificial intelligence software. Such tasks happen over long time periods. But we can relate the lab experiment (efficiency measurement) to the very long task because the task is strongly related to a latent trait (g). Without efficiency measurements (they may exist, but I haven’t seen them) for creativity, we have the relationship between established creative ability and multiple end products, but the efficiency part is missing. A number of relatively recent papers have argued that there is a connection between intelligence and creativity, which may provide an indirect link to brain efficiency.

My impression is that some creative people work very fast and some plod along with lots of revisions, but both manage to reach finished works that meet the face value of high level creativity. I once watched a film of Picasso painting and was amazed at the speed with which he created a painting, but he would then overpaint it multiple times (also quickly). We occasionally read about symphonies and novels that were produced over long spans of time and those (Mozart) that were done quickly. It is not obvious that brain efficiency is a factor in these, but it may account for such differences. Curiously, Jensen described how Beethoven started the composition of a symphony from a simple structure, then went over it repeatedly, making changes that increased its complexity and appeal, until the final version was achieved. This is similar to what Picasso was doing, except that Picasso did not add complexity but simply changed the impact of the painting repeatedly, until he had a result that suited his intent.

The efficiency hypothesis may, in fact, be reversed for creative output. It is the inefficient brain that is likely to bring in more remote associations because of low tissue integrity, less efficient networks, and low inhibition. These are probably going to cause increased glucose uptake rates in the brain.

Jacobsen: With the PFIT network as important for intelligence and problem solving, could there be a generic partially diffuse network rather than a singular structure (a lobe, etc.) responsible for much of the conscious problem solving determined as intelligence or I.Q., where much of the rest of the brain is devoted to sensing, motor skills, and feeling? Something like a diffuse network functioning outward from BA10 for conscious discrimination and associational matrix problem solving making sense of the data fed through BA10 through a field of conscious thought.

Williams: Network study is a big thing now that researchers have tools to study white matter tracts (diffusion tensor imaging in particular). The network that I have seen mentioned repeatedly, in connection with creativity, is the default mode network. It clearly plays a role in creativity. Some studies have focused on the interplay between networks, suggesting rapid switching from one network to another, in much the same way as early computers used task switching when they did not have preemptive multitasking. My guess is that, with increasing study and improved imaging tools, there will be models based on networks, switching, and interplay. These presumably will also involve creative task execution. Given the central role of BA10 in intelligence, I would assume that it is also central to creative processing and performs the same integration function.

Jacobsen: How important are Wai, Lubinsky, and Benbow, currently, to the higher study of intelligence?

Williams: They have a near monopoly on the topic. Most intelligence research is focused on the middle of the IQ spectrum. Julian Stanley started the Study of Mathematically Precocious Youth when Camilla Benbow was working with him (probably a student). SMPY became a longitudinal study that had 5 cohort groups. Benbow inherited ownership of the ongoing study from him and it continues today as the most productive study of very bright individuals. It has been ongoing for about 50 years, so there are data for important life outcomes. One of the most significant findings of the study is that there is a large difference within the top 1% of intelligence, favoring increasing intelligence. Among the variables that increase with increasing intelligence are the number of doctorates, peer reviewed publications, STEM publications, STEM doctorates, income, and STEM tenure.

Jacobsen: How does Rex Jung see the different forms of creativity scientific and artistic emergent from a single source in creativity, so fundamentally the same?

Williams: When I asked him if he thought that artistic creativity and scientific creativity are the same, he said “yes.” I think this was based on the two things he used as primary markers: the alternative uses test and the Creative Achievement Questionnaire. With those two items, the difference (scientific/artistic) is presumably not evident.

Jacobsen: How did Arthur Jensen see intelligence as more integral to scientific creativity than artistic creativity, so, in a sense different from Jung, something more fundamental to scientific endeavours than artistic?

Williams: As I recall, Jensen believed that intelligence was not a significant factor in artistic creativity, but was probably a significant factor in scientific creativity. My perspective on this is that the depth of knowledge of a scientific discipline is strongly correlated with intelligence and that knowledge is an essential ingredient in manipulating scientific ideas. Creativity in science is often seen in the formation of an unlikely hypothesis, followed by the task of validating it from experiments and mathematical models. If we compare that to the creativity of an artist, we see that art demands idea generation that makes a subjective impression on the viewer. This is quite different from the scientific product that is supported by testing, replication, modeling, etc. In science, there is nothing subjective about getting something right; there is a subjective zing to seeing the brilliance of new insight.

Jacobsen: Based on your speculation, how would individual flashes of creativity integrated over time with non-creative activity provide a basis for comprehension of creativity regarding output? In this sense, intelligent integrative activity would be necessary, not for creativity but, for unifying the original creative insights into a unified work.

Williams: As a speculation, I would say “yes.” In any case, “intelligent integrative activity” would be necessary for combining the “multiple flashes of creativity.” This idea would be an interesting one for someone to pursue as a study. I doubt that it has been done and imagine that it would at least be possible, using an approach such as interviews, self-reports, etc.

Jacobsen: What about developmental cascade effects? Where, a singular large change in a brain network or structure in early life alters overall brain structure and processing through development into full maturity leading to a much more novel neurology compared to the general population. I would assume this happening in dysfunctional ways more than functional ways as a matter of the law of averages.

Williams: It certainly makes sense that this would turn out badly most of the time. One way that such developmental issues can be observed is via fluctuating anisotropy (FA). This is commonly used in biological sciences as an indicator of developmental instability. It is simply a measure of nonsymmetry, based on bones in the wrists, ankles, etc. The idea is to measure where there is little fat. More FA means lower IQ (and other issues). The correlation with IQ varies widely from about zero to 0.40. One reason for the range of correlations is that head size is a confound. There is a similar relationship between facial symmetry and IQ. Various studies have found that people can guess IQ from photographs of faces. And one study showed that childhood environmental factors are associated with SES. These generally support the notion of early developmental problems having longterm impact on the individual.

Jacobsen: Are there drugs, prescription or not, that, in fact, increase creativity for the duration of efficacy in the body?

Williams: Yes. One of the well known factors is alcohol. I even recall a study of creativity among people who were evaluated when they were drunk. In The Cambridge Handbook of the Neuroscience of Creativity there are discussions of particularly strong drinking problems among writers. This book also discusses clinical drugs that have some impact (positive and negative) on creativity. These generally fall into categories of dopaminergic drugs, sedatives, serotonin reuptake inhibitors, antidepressants, moodstabolizing drugs, and the often mentioned recreational drugs (remember the 60s). This category is an example of an inverted U distribution, where more of the drug is initially beneficial, but a point is reached when the impact of the drug (on creativity) declines because the individual becomes impaired.

Jacobsen: Why does true genius tend to isolation?

Williams: Various researchers have written about the personalities of true genius. These rare creative people typically suffer from nasty dispositions. Jensen: “In many creative geniuses, this potential for actual psychosis is usually buffered and held in check by certain other traits, such as a high degree of ego strength. That psychoticism is a constellation of characteristics that persons may show to varying degrees; such persons may be aggressive, cold, egocentric, impersonal, impulsive, antisocial, unempathic, toughminded, and creative. This is not a charming picture of genius, perhaps, but a reading of the biographies of some of the most famous geniuses attests to its veracity.” [Benbow, C. P., & Lubinski, D. J. (Eds.). (1996). Intellectual talent: Psychometric and social issues. Johns Hopkins University Press.]

Jacobsen: Why does true genius tend towards no progeny?

Williams: The personality traits of true geniuses (discussed above) do not bode well for a social life and may be at least part of the explanation for why they often do not marry. There is a well established negative correlation between IQ and fertility rate (measured relative to women) which has been argued in the literature as the cause of a slow but real decline in mean IQ in developed nations. In the case of geniuses, this is presumably a factor.

Jacobsen: If you could pick only one high intelligence or high creativity, which would you choose?

Williams: For me, the answer is simple: intelligence. The reason is simply that the baggage that accompanies high creativity is not appealing. In general, higher intelligence leads to mostly desirable life outcomes, while high creativity often does not.

Jacobsen: What are the cold hard truths known about intelligence research and about theoretical constructs proposed to explain intelligence now?

Williams: I love this question as it hits directly at the things that are widely not understood, even by bright, educated people.

Mother Nature did not create brains according to a PC project plan. Instead, she opted to make intelligence hugely important and did not compensate people who happen to fall at the low end of the spectrum. I think a good way to view intelligence is by a list of correlates. There is at least one positive correlate that does not imply a desirable outcome: myopia, correlated at about r = 0.20 to 0.25 (given by both Jensen and Storfer). It is not the result of “nearwork.” Jensen: “Children in classes for the intellectually gifted (IQ > 130), for example, show an incidence of myopia three to five times greater than the incidence among pupils in regular classes.” [from The g Factor]

Otherwise, positive correlations are beneficial, while negative correlations are not. The “cold hard truth” of this is that life is increasingly more favorable at higher and higher levels of intelligence and is increasingly more difficult at lower and lower levels. I made the list below a couple of years ago, to illustrate the unfair nature of the IQ spectrum:

positive (+) correlation with intelligence

income

longevity

general health

life satisfaction

body symmetry

vital capacity

grip strength

educational achievement (grades, years completed, difficulty of major)

SES (a product of intelligence, not a cause of it)

speed of mental functions, including response to a stimulus and sensitivity to a short stimulus

memory

learning rate

number of interests (held with competence)

job performance

brain efficiency (relative to glucose uptake rate)

sperm quality

negative (-) correlation with intelligence

smoking

HIV infection

crime

time incarcerated

school dropout

teen pregnancy

fertility rate

illegitimate births

unemployment

At the national level, mean national IQ correlates positively with per capita GDP, economic growth, economic freedom, rule of law, democratization, adult literacy, savings, national test scores on science and math, enrollment in higher education, life expectancy, and negatively with HIV infection, unemployment, violent crime, poverty, % agricultural economy, corruption, fertility rate, polygyny, and religiosity.

The correlates I listed range from moderate to small, but are important because small effects can coexist and are usually small because of the presence of large amounts of noise. When very large groups are considered, noise tends to cancel out, which is why national level comparisons typically have high correlations. An examination of the lists reveals that several factors relate to physical wellbeing. This is frequently discussed in the literature as relating to an overarching fitness factor that encompasses physical health, mental health, intelligence, and physical robustness.

These correlates are all the more cold and hard, when we consider that intelligence is determined at the moment of conception [Using DNA to predict intelligence; Sophie von Stumm, Robert Plomin; Intelligence 86 (2021) 101530.]; the environmental impacts are negative (lower intelligence); and the range of intelligence is huge. Group differences in mean IQ (or g) account for group differences the factors I listed for national outcomes.

Jacobsen: What countries leaders take these seriously without ideological commitments to distort them?

Williams: Some years ago, a friend loaned me a book about Indonesia. There was a fair amount of discussion in it about the highly diverse population and the realistic understanding of how intelligence was a factor that differed between the internal groups. I unfortunately cannot recall the title of the book and am not sure if it was discussing the time Sukarno was president. I think that was the case.

Otherwise China is very much aware of the importance of intelligence and in conducting intelligence research on a large scale. This huge effort is discussed in Haier, R. J. (2017). The Neuroscience of Intelligence, Cambridge University Press. Western nations have gone in the wokePC direction of denial and counter productive policies. I don’t see a path towards rational, factual thinking (about this issue) in the West.

Footnotes

[1] Retired Nuclear Physicist.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5)[Online]. July 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 1). Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Bob Williams on Schizotypy, Creativity, Genius, Johnson and Bouchard, PFIT and BA10, Wai, Benbow, Lubinsky, Rex Jung, and Arthur Jensen: Retired Nuclear Physicist (5)[Internet]. (2022, July 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/williams-5.

License

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Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-07-01

Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,587

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Luis Ortiz is a Member of the Glia Society. He discusses: growing up; an extended self;’ the family background; peers and schoolmates; the purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence discovered; geniuses; the greatest geniuses in history; a genius from a profoundly intelligent person; some work experiences and educational certifications; the idea of the gifted and geniuses; some social and political views; the God concept; science; some of the tests taken and scores earned; the range of the scores; and ethical philosophy.

Keywords: family, Glia Society, intelligence, I.Q., Luis Ortiz, self.

Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?

Luis Ortiz[1],[2]*: Nothing interesting. I only remember anecdotes about myself only. For instance, when I was about two years old. It had recently been Christmas and in the living room of the place where I was living at the time there was a Christmas tree with the lights disconnected. I remember getting up in the middle of the night to go to the Christmas tree and plug it in. My parents mention that they were scared because at some point in the night they woke up and realized the tree was on and thought maybe someone had broken in. When they checked, it turned out to be me looking at the tree.

I remember this fact myself but somewhat vaguely.

Jacobsen: Have these stories helped provide a sense of an extended self or a sense of the family legacy?

Ortiz: No.

Jacobsen: What was the family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Ortiz: I come from a Catholic family that was very religious back then when I was a child. Nowadays they are not so religious anymore but they are still very spiritual. Regarding the geographical origins I do not know many details. I only know that part of the family is of Spanish origin. This is quite common in Mexico, actually. I guess it is still remarkable because I can tell that the phenotype of my family, in terms of appearance and personality, tends to differ a lot from the typical one here in Mexico.

Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and an adolescent?

Ortiz: Bad, I would add. I recall being a somewhat eccentric child but still remarkably normal for the first 5 years of my life. In primary school, around 6 years old, things started to get bad. I recall feeling extremely bored. I never payed attention. The vast majority of time it was me playing with my school utensils. Strangely, this habit lasted until about the age of 9 years, and I recall getting bullied for that. I recall people making fun of me because I was an eccentric child talking alone while playing with whatever was within my reach. I remember this myself. Everything was more or less normal and when I entered to primary school, some months thereafter I began to feel school so boring and decided to distract myself doing other things.

I had to receive attention from a psychologist from that school because I suddenly became from normal to a bad student. The psychologist in question succeeded in helping me improve my performance, but then my mother decided to just move out from the city I was living in back then and I got transferred. From there on, none of the schools I went (yes, there were more transfers) had any psychologist and never went to see any despite the obvious abnormalities. My performance declined so badly that I repeated third grade and almost fourth. But this is irrelevant to the point of the question.

Even though I made some friends I was alone most of the time. And the fact that I transferred many times did not helped.

Basically, during my childhood, my experience consisted of some loneliness in school, being occasionally accompanied by one friend. I tried to play soccer with other kids in order to be more “normal” and incorporate but I was too bad for that. I guess it was my lack of practice, the fact that soccer is a mainstream sport practiced almost daily for years by almost anyone going to school, and some lack of talent from me.

I remember there was a mate in a Christian school I went who liked to feign being possessed by the devil. He boasted so much about being evil itself and being the son of satan. Curiously, this kid was actually a Christian. He was joking, obviously, but the way in which he did so was far unusual. I do not remember any other religious Christian being anywhere close to reassemble that.

Around my teenage years I stabilized more towards normality but still was very abnormal and could not fit as expected. These were terrible years for me. I had problems with my family and had to transfer many times again from one school to another. I lost contact with the few friends I made like 3 times.

In sum, my general experience is characterized by being someone abnormal with a small group of friends and occasionally trying to fit in with normies. Nowadays I am surprised by the fact that it took me years to realise how different I was from normies and the obvious fact that I was never going to fit.

I could go on but I guess this is enough to show that it was a bad experience generally speaking. This left me some deep psychological wounds, because whenever I see references on memes and jokes about usual school situations, or anything related, I tend to feel uncomfortable and furious. I developed a deep hatred towards school, the way in which basic education is taught here and some behaviours displayed by mexican teens.

I confess I would love to have a regular school experience or something better, like the stuff you see on movies, TV shows and anime series, but I guess I was too abnormal for that. Not to mention the problems with my parents and the fact that mexicans really need something like 15 additional I.Q. points.

Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?

Ortiz: They are useful tools for assessing people’s intellectual potential. Although imperfect, they are still informative and useful for detecting high I.Q.’s. If someone is intelligent enough to deserve special education, it should be mandatory to receive it. Forcing highly intelligent people to pass through the regular curriculum could bring severe problems. I suspect that was a strong reason behind my failure at school, besides my deviant personality.

As for high range I.Q. tests, I think they are entertaining and challenging. I enjoy the feeling that comes when a solution to a hard and tough problem comes. They also help people in gaining insight into their aptitude profile.

Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?

Ortiz: Around 11 years old. I never suspected that I was intelligent before that. Actually it was the opposite. I had the idea that I was a little bit mentally retarded. This was because I never fitted in in school and spent most of my free time playing videogames, watching t.v., playing alone, surfing the web and so on. It never occurred to me that I could be an intelligent individual mainly because I never gave myself the opportunity to manifest my potential, and neither school nor my family did so, I was a problematic child and never fitted in well in school. Because of this, my self-esteem got a little bit undermined. Actually, at some point I recall feeling totally useless. So I thought I was simply not suited for anything related using the brain.

I recall surfing through Youtube until finding, by accident, a video which showed a comparison between the sizes of different planets and stars. For some reason I liked that video and watched it many times. After that I found a documentary about the sun and found it interesting. I watched many documentaries eventually. At some point I watched so many documentaries that I became very well articulated and informed about many arcane subjects which no one cared, then changed my mind about my capacity. Something bizarre about this is the fact that my high intelligence was so obvious that everyone was very well aware of it, but no one did absolutely anything. This is when my psychological wounds emerge again, whenever I see those prodigy children on the media sometimes I can not avoid feeling bad for never receiving any proper education and attention (prodigy children are recognized because they often receive proper attention early in their lives). Rather, I got forced to pass through regular school with its obvious shortcomings.

Ortiz: A genius, in my view, is a highly creative person, a person who makes outstanding contributions to a given field. Someone who brings up new brilliant ideas and fundamental changes in a discipline, someone who makes actual advances. It is hard for me to define what constitutes actual advances but at least they are not hard to recognise, specially in the case of exact sciences. Creativity, by its very nature of bringing something new, often breaks down the usual beliefs, old ideas and dogmas, that people hold. Therefore it tends to offend vested interests and people who like to believe in lies, the irrational and often unprincipled; at the same time, tends to gain respect from those more predisposed towards accepting and appreciating real advance. Hence, a genius, being a supreme manifestation of creativity, will tend raise extreme reactions.

Paul Cooijmans mentioned that creativity is the expression of awareness. This does make sense to me. Being creative requires both inner drive and novel insights. Only an aware brain would arrive at novel ideas and have the self-drive required to develop these ideas. Edward Dutton and Bruce G. Charlton in their book “The Genius Famine” mention that genius is an Endogenous personality, a combination of innate high ability, inner motivation and intuitive thinking. They put some emphasis on the fact that Endogenous personality is an inner oriented, self driven kind of person. I receive the impression that this is the result of something special happening inside the head of a person with creative potential. It could be that extreme reactions are the result of people perceiving something unusual regarding the individual in question.

Jacobsen: Who seem like the greatest geniuses in history to you?

Ortiz: I would mention anyone who is considered a scientific genius and who has achieved extraordinary feats in advancing science, philosophy and arts. Beyond that, it is hard to identify who would undoubtedly qualify as genius as already defined here. To name some examples include Isaac Newton, Christiaan Huygens and Galileo Galilei.

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?

Ortiz: A profoundly intelligent person is someone with a very high I.Q., say, something like being three standard deviations above the mean (145 points; the top 0.135% of the population). While having a high I.Q. is a necessary condition for the outstanding creative achievements that characterizes a genius, it is not sufficient. Therefore, the main difference lies in personality and the way in which genius is predisposed to see and perceive the world. A profoundly intelligent person may be very well creative or just normal, whereas a genius is a very rare kind of individual whose personality comprises some traits which are very rare to find strongly expressed in the very same individual. I refer the reader to Cooijmans’ articles about genius, Edward Dutton’s book “The Genius Famine”, Hans Eysenck’s “Genius. The natural history of creativity”, and Arthur Jensen’s (this appears in the book Intellectual Talent: Psychometric and Social Issues) “Giftedness and Genius: Important Differences”.

The latter provides a good illustration of what is a genius and what is a profoundly intelligent person. It draws a distinction by describing the case of Ramanujan and Hardy.

Jacobsen: What have been some work experiences and educational certifications for you?

Ortiz: Menial and uninteresting jobs only. No remarkable credentials for the moment. I only finished what is the equivalent of high school here.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses? Those myths that pervade the cultures of the world. What are those myths? What truths dispel them?

Ortiz: One important aspect is the distinction already made here between intellectual capacity and potential for creative achievement.

“Genius” is used in a lightly way often. People showing talent, prodigy childs and profoundly intelligent people in general are sometimes labeled as geniuses. I would not put in doubt the value of these kinds of people, but I think “genius” should be reserved for something more elevated. Supremely creative people, of course.

As for using the word gifted, I refer the reader to Cooijmans’ article “Reasons to avoid the term “gifted””. It is helpful in providing an understanding of the importance of an accurate employment of words, not just in regards to high intelligence.

Jacobsen: What are some social and political views for you? Why hold them?

Ortiz: I am not decided yet on this matter. But, for the moment, I would mention that classical liberalism seems attractive to me. Classical marxism, in contrast, and anything deriving from it, seems terribly loathsome.

But leaving that aside. I strongly support some specific measures. For instance, Cooijmans’ idea of vote weighting based on intelligence; Wim Rietdijk’s idea of interviewing with lie detectors relevant politicians, journalists, business people, etc. Interviews with very specific and straightforward questions: “what is your actual interest? Are you working for someone else? Do you have an interest in destroying our current democratic society?”. A reason to support this is to make it hard for bad and incompetent people to ascend and occupy any position of power and significance in society, and easier for naturally competent, good, intelligent people with a genuine interest in advancing society.

Also I think eugenics is vastly important. Intelligence and good character are among the pillars of civilization. Without these things a successful society in perpetual advance is not possible. Since these things are mostly genetic, some measures should be taken to make them abound. There should exist policies encouraging intelligent and good natured people to procreate more, and procreation from criminals should be banned completely. Unfortunately, it has become heresy to talk about eugenics in this way. This is so sad. Without it, societies are condemned to rise and fall endlessly with the constant risk of losing everything with every decay. Not to mention the constant threat of natural disasters with the potential to end life as we know it. Without a powerful civilization able to survive or counter these disasters, humanity is at risk of disappearing forever leaving little or no trace. For these reasons, and more, I think eugenics is among humanity’s most powerful weapons against life’s cruelties.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?

Ortiz: I think this matter is very complicated. First, on the concept of god: I am skeptical about the existence of any god or “superior intelligence”. I suppose god must have a mind or a kind of awareness not dissimilar from the kind of awareness we have. Otherwise probably there would not exist the need to call it god. I do not see any “mind” acting out there. I see structure in the universe of course, and minds are complicated structures themselves, but it must be reminded that not all structures are minds!

It could be said that god is acting from some kind of unconditioned reality, but how the heck am I supposed to believe that? I wonder. I care about the real world and its natural causes among things and phenomena, not about supernatural unverifiable things. The rejection of only existing natural causes and events introduces supernatural causes to the world. That is to say that there are things for which there cannot exist any logical explanation working in terms of our world. Any observed potential supernatural phenomenon should be seen as natural because it is acting in our world of natural causes and effects, and as such, constitutes a cause or an effect itself that comes from somewhere. Seeing potential supernatural causes in the world and not giving them any proper explanation, or not seeking one if there is not any available, is a matter of faith, of reasoning errors. You are renouncing, partly at least, to rationality as a medium to derive explanations about the empirical datum and make sense of the world.

As for religion, I am not the kind of atheist who despises religion. I believe people should be left free to choose their religion, as far as it concerns something not dangerous, or choose whether they should be spiritual or not. I do not think it is necessarily bad. Religion often provides people an ethical framework, a meaning of life and the satisfaction of accomplishing an elevated end, of existing for something greater. Provides a sense of leading a meaningful life.

Most humans are unable to make sense of the world logically. They employ supernatural causes in their vision of the world as a consequence. They also need a meaning of life. Religion is what provides these things, a meaning for life and a (crude) model of the world, to them. It is what naturally follows given their limitations, both intellectual and in regards to life’s cruelty.

Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?

Ortiz: It is fundamentally important as it helps to grow knowledge about real world. It helps to provide some understanding about the real physical world and myself. I am not competent enough to evaluate scientific theories and models at a technical level yet but I am working on that. I strive to be a polymath proficient in many areas.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations) for you?

Ortiz: Below are some scores expressed on a scale with the standard deviation being equal to 15, next to the name of the test:

PIGS 2, 155;

Numina4D, 154;

INRC 2018, 146;

Cogitatus Logicae 30, 156;

These are some performances on tests which I consider good. Also, I consider them strongly representative of at least my non-verbal ability. I am planning to take verbal tests on the future to get a better picture.

Jacobsen: What is the range of the scores for you? The scores earned on alternative intelligence tests tend to produce a wide smattering of data points rather than clusters, typically.

Ortiz: About 80 points. My lowest score ever is about 80, if I recall correctly. It was on a test which I decided to finish prematurely. My highest is 164.

Yes, such enormous difference between the lowest and highest score is possible, and perhaps common. The tests are not perfect and always capture something else besides general ability. And even if they could capture the whole of general ability only, people vary in their mental ability across lifetime. You will not perform equally well on a test when old and decaying than when younger and at your peak of general ability. Sometimes I.Q.’s, as is often the case in mainstream psychology, express people’s performance relative to other people of the same age and sex. Even then, people develop and decay at different rates, so again there are no reasons to expect scoring the same even on a hypothetical test measuring general intelligence only, unless abandoning such comparisons and using some absolute scale of intelligence.

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Ortiz: I am not decided about this, too. I work intuitively, as I am aware that both strong reasoning ability and interest in being a good person provide almost instantly and naturally what is needed in order to act ethically. Being ethical is easy when you actually care about it and have high intelligence. I think it is possible to develop universal and objective ethics, and have some access to them. But that requires high intelligence. And as far as I know, I have both an interest on being a good person and a high intelligence.

I normally try to think if what I will do will cause any harm or if there will be any negative consequences. Of course, “negativity” is judged based upon the specific situation and its context. One important thing to keep in mind is the existence of awareness and suffering. A distinction between good and evil makes sense because of these things. Good people act in such a way that perpetuates awareness’ existence and avoids adding as much as possible to the total suffering in the universe.

Something I noticed many people do is putting too much emphasis on protecting others’ feelings. I do not like this. Life is full of uncomfortable situations. Life is essentially, and in part, uncomfortable. Sometimes it is necessary to tell people the most uncomfortable things. Indeed, it is quite usual to get involved in uncomfortable situations with people whom you appreciate.

Actually, I hate this kind of approach. Why should I be forced to consider others’ feelings constantly? It is annoying and to some extent constraining. If people lack any maturity to take whatever I am saying, that is not my problem. It could be argued that my logic could be used to intentionally seek any harm to others’ feelings and then excusing oneself with not doing anything bad. But I am merely arguing that putting too much emphasis on others’ feelings is annoying, unnecessary, something I would not do. Obviously, I would not try to freely annoy people unless they deserve it.

Footnotes

[1] Member, Glia Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1)[Online]. July 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 1). Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Luis Ortiz on Family, Intelligence Scores, and Views: Member, Glia Society (1)[Internet]. (2022, July 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ortiz-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-07-01

Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.D, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,185

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Justin Duplantis is a Lifetime Member of Triple Nine Society. Matthew Scillitani is a member of The Glia Society and The Giga Society. They discuss: the education of the young and the role of education; the importance of parents; Boris Sidis; mental illnesses; individuals who have higher I.Q.s and struggle with mental illness; and highest I.Q. scores.

Keywords: Giga Society, Glia Society, Justin Duplantis, Matthew Scillitani, Triple Nine Society.

Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You both have overlapping interests in education and psychology, respectively. High intelligence, as measured by I.Q. tests, has been established as mostly hereditary. Recent studies seem to indicate 80% or more genetic contribution to the expression of I.Q. as a metric of intelligence, which seems staggering based on the general poor levels of definite knowledge in psychology. This one seems more so than others. If so, so if taking an evidence-based approach with the most updated scientific findings, what does this mean for the education of the young and the role of education in assistance to the gifted and talented?

Justin Duplantis: It comes down to predisposition. If there is a likelihood that gifted parents will have gifted offspring, there should be ownership taken to pursue this and ensure their children are properly educated.

Matt Scillitani: This result provides some evidence for just how wasted our resources are on mentally handicapped children. If intelligence is 80% or more genetic then there is little point in dedicating so much attention to intellectually disabled kids since there won’t be much improvement anyway. My suggestion is to change the IEP to focus on the smartest rather than the most disabled children and to minimize the resources given to the children in an IEP today.

Jacobsen: What does this mean for the importance of parents and providing a program of enrichment, whether structured advanced guidance or free-roaming with plentiful resources for the kid?

Duplantis: As you referenced through providing various outlets, it is important to understand that there is no one size fits all solution for the education of any group of children and gifted youth are no different. It is about encouraging them to pursue their areas of interest and providing them the proper resources to enable that pursuit.

Scillitani: Schools should probably be well structured and not free-roaming. We can’t trust that children will act in their own best interest and actually learn any material if they’re in a laissez-faire learning environment. Parents should also have little or no voice in how schools are run, by the way. Just because they have a kid doesn’t mean they know anything about child psychology or education. It was always absurd to me how the school system allowed parents to waste so much of their time and have such strong (and ignorant) voices.

Jacobsen: Bill Sidis is, often, pointed out as either a failure, a social outcast, a genius, or a self-isolating intellectual. Whether the myth can be entirely separated from the mythos, he was smart. He was separated from wider society. Was Boris Sidis’ highly structured education appropriate, or not? Would maintaining contact with same-age peers be advisable?

Duplantis: What a loaded question. As indicated above, there is no generalization that can be made, rather assessments need to be individualized. Whilst some children would flourish among their peers, others would feel intellectually stunted. As a child, I enjoyed playing games with my great-grandmother and her friends, rather than going to friend’s house. The intellectual stimulation and adult conversation was refreshing and a dynamic shift from school.

Scillitani: This is a very sad story of how a brilliant young man’s future can be ruined by too ambitious parents and teachers. Of course his education was not appropriate since it stole his childhood and put him under crippling life-long stress. At the very least he should have had some classes with children his age.

Jacobsen: You two may have different opinions on this one. It has been a while, and opinions change. Nonetheless, how much do mental illnesses affect individuals with giftedness compared to the general population?

Duplantis: I suppose it depends upon what one defines as mental illness. There are certain afflictions, if you will, that are more prevalent in the high IQ community. The individuals have to face the feelings of solitude brought on by characteristics of high IQ as well as those of their given afflictions.

Scillitani: Intelligent people tend to handle psychiatric illness better and are diagnosed less often than in the general population. It’s usually that if two people have the same psychiatric illness the smarter of them will have less expression of that illness than the dumber of the two. Severe psychiatric illness combined with intelligence can also sometimes produce genius but such does not happen with a psychiatrically ill idiot. Every genius has a touch of madness as they say.

Jacobsen: What seems to happen with individuals who have higher I.Q.s and struggle with mental illness, psychiatric diagnoses?

Duplantis: Although much is similar, the variance comes in the ability to rationalize not taking medication. Due to the high intellect, they are often able to persuade themselves and others that they are able to handle their govern afflictions free from the oppression of prescribed medications.

Scillitani: It is hard for them. It’s harder for someone who’s not so smart but there is a whole different kind of struggle when you’re intelligent and have a psychiatric disorder. The smart person with depression, anxiety, autism, or whatever is usually going to find it much harder to get help because (1) they’re used to solving problems on their own and (2) they usually know more about themselves than any mental health professional ever could, so why even bother? The therapist will also find it hard to relate with the brilliant patient since it’s much easier to empathize with someone at or beneath yourself than it is to empathize with someone above. Therapists, counselors, and clinical psychologists know what it’s like to make dumb decisions, everyone does, but they can’t understand how we think, and that’s a big issue when you’re trying to help someone change their patterns of thinking and behavior.

Jacobsen: Also, people, may be curious if they don’t know. What were the highest I.Q. scores earned by the two of you? What were the tests (even test plus statistical methodology for extrapolation) used for acquisition of such a high score? T.N.S. and the Giga Society are difficult to enter.

Duplantis: MAT – 548 – just shy of 6SD.

Scillitani: From highest to lowest: Psychometric Qrosswords (190+ 15 S.D.), The Marathon Test – Verbal (176 15 S.D.), Rhyming Riddles (173+ 15 S.D.), Addagrams (173 15 S.D.), The Marathon Test – Numerical (167+ 15 S.D.), The Marathon Test (166 I.Q. 15 S.D.), A Relaxing Test (165 15 S.D.), Splice (164+ 15 S.D.), Dicing with death (162 S.D. 15), and The Piper’s Test (161 15 S.D.) are my ten highest scores to date I believe. I may have a few more 170+ scores but I can’t remember at the moment. I’ve also taken some “mainstream” tests like the W.A.I.S. and have maxed them out since they don’t have very high ceilings. My lowest score of all time was on one of Paul Cooijmans’ Netherlandic tests where I scored 123. I later taught myself Dutch and took another Netherlandic test where I scored 158 to redeem myself though. As for the norming method used in these high-range tests, it’s most often simply “anchoring” one’s scores on other I.Q. tests to their raw score on the object test.

Footnotes

[1] Justin Duplantis works in computational biology and will complete his MBA specializing in data analytics this month. A lifetime member of the Triple Nine Society, he served as an Executive Committee member and Editor of their journal, Vidya. He is a father of two profoundly gifted boys, whom joined him in Mensa membership at the ages of two and three. Justin has interests in high IQ communities, intelligence, and intelligence research, as measured by IQ tests. Beyond that, he is a former professional billiards player and is currently playing in Israel in the Israeli Elite Hockey League (IEHL).

[2] Matthew Scillitani, member of The Glia Society and The Giga Society, is a web developer and SEO specialist living in North Carolina. He is of Italian and British lineage, and is predominantly English-speaking. He earned his bachelor’s degree in psychology at East Carolina University, with a focus on neurobiology and a minor in business marketing. He’s previously worked as a research psychologist, data analyst, and writer, publishing over three hundred papers on topics such as nutrition, fitness, psychology, neuroscience, free will, and Greek history. You may contact him via e-mail at mattscil@gmail.com.

[3] Individual Publication Date: July 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1)[Online]. July 2022; 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 1). Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.D (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Justin Duplantis and Matthew Scillitani on I.Q. and the Young: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Member, Giga Society (1)[Internet]. (2022, July 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-scillitani-1.

License

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-22

The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 5,720

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Canadian Show Jumping Team veteran Erynn Ballard is one of the top-ranked female show jumping athletes in the world. Her career began with great success in the hunter, jumper, and equitation rings as a junior rider, including becoming only the second Canadian to ever win the ASPCA Maclay National Championships in 1998. One year later, Ballard won the individual gold medal at the 1999 North American Young Riders’ Championship. In 2006, Ballard made her Nations’ Cup debut at the Spruce Meadows ‘Masters’ tournament and helped Canada win for the first time in the event’s history. That same year, she was named ‘Equestrian of the Year’ by her National Federation. Since then, she has accumulated numerous wins at the five-star level. Renowned for her impressive catch-riding abilities, Ballard currently rides for Ilan Ferder Stables, an internationally-respected training and sales operation. She discusses: becoming interested in equestrianism; highly accomplished in several platforms and earning awards in the industry; earliest articles; Maclay Finals; competition; great mentors; influence; a uniform training style; repetition and feel; picking a horse for the body build; Europe; the change; socioeconomic issues of haves and have-nots; career highlights post-Maclay; Canada; sit-down discussions; competitions, events, or speaking engagements; not really doing anything differently; riding; pragmatism and realism; endurance; working; an internal halt once; and career choices.

Keywords: 2024 Paris Olympics, ASPCA Maclay National Championships, Canada, Canadian, equestrianism, Erynn Ballard, Europe, FEI, Geneva, Grand Prix, horse, Kim Kirton, Leslie Reid, Milton, Nations Cup, North America, Ocala, Palm Beach, Pan Am Games, Spruce Meadows, U25.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

*Interview conducted January 10, 2022.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start from the beginning, naturally, what were some of the earlier experiences for you, which stood out in terms of becoming interested in equestrianism?

Erynn Ballard[1],[2],[3]: I have been doing it for so long. I don’t know if there is one thing that stood out over another. It was my parents’ business. Before I turned 5, we lived in town, in a small house. Around my 5^th birthday, we moved to the farm where I grew up. That was probably the turning point, which was living on the farm with the horses.

I grew up in Milton. It wasn’t until 2005 when my parents moved up North. The farm that we owned was right on the 401. So, it was time to sell the land, then we moved North.

Jacobsen: Obviously, you’re the number 1 ranked equestrian in Canada [Ed. At the time of the interview, now, one of the top-ranked women equestrians in the world]. You’re highly accomplished in several platforms and earning awards in the industry. Was this precocity with horses noted early? Or were you an ordinary rider who worked very hard, or some combination of the two?

Ballard: I don’t know. I don’t know how you become good. I was always good. I won from a very early stage, but I don’t know if people noticed me, at the time. Certainly, I never felt like I was any sort of prodigy. I was just a kid who liked to ride horses and won a lot of classes.

Jacobsen: What were the earliest articles written about you when you started becoming noticed? Do you recall any of those?

Ballard: Probably, the biggest most notable win was when I won Maclay Finals. I was 17 and just turned 18. It is a big equitation final in the U.S. That would have given me, for sure, the most publicity. It is one of the biggest accomplishments you can have as a junior.

Jacobsen: How many juniors take part in that competition in particular?

Ballard: You have to compete at the regionals before you go to the Finals. That year, it was at the Gardens, maybe 185. I don’t know – around there.

Jacobsen: All these ~185 have gone through their own filtration to train, go through competitions, to compete at the ASPCA Maclay Finals. So, when you’re getting trained early on and winning competitions, who do you mark as great mentors for you, trainers?

Ballard: I grew up with my parents. When I was quite young, I went on the road. When I was 10- or 11-years-old, I went on the road to ride ponies with Kim Kirton, who is a trainer in Canada. Then I went into equitation to do it properly in the United States. Missy Clark was my trainer. Still, to this day, those two people are very influential in my life.

Jacobsen: What would you attribute each individual’s influence on you? What particular quality stands out to you?

Ballard: For both of those people, they teach a very individual style. They let each rider be their own selves. Some trainers, you can see. You can pick out that rider rides with that person because they pick up a characteristic of that stable. Missy, certainly, each of her riders; she works on their own strengths. She focuses on those. You become less uniform and more individual if that makes sense.

Jacobsen: Are there areas in which a uniform training style is beneficial?

Ballard: I’m sure. Maybe, people with less natural feel excel in a more uniform training environment, where everything is done the same way. You work solely on repetition. Basically, any good trainer works on repetition, but specific to body type. How you sit on a horse, the first time you sit on a horse; it will be the way you look on the horse, for the most part, for the rest of your life.

I am lucky for this sport. I have a shorter upper body, longer legs, and longer arms. So, it is easier for me to sit in the center of a horse. Missy would work on my individual style as far as how I physically looked on the horse rather than conforming me to a different position. That’s where you have to work on repetition for training, but how you sit on a horse for the first day is how you’re always going to sit on the horse because it’s your place of balance.

Some people with shorter legs and longer upper bodies may have a harder time staying in balance. They can become heavier at the top. People with shorter arms may have a harder time if they are riding lower with a low horse because they may be restricted in their ability to bend their elbows to go with the horse’s balance. They may get stuck because their arm doesn’t give them the freedom to go with the balance.

So, when you’re working on training, and when you’re working with kids developing, you have to focus on their physical build. You have to focus on a horse suitable for them, suitable for their physical build. Then you can focus on their abilities.

Jacobsen: You mentioned repetition and feel. What is the importance of repetition regardless of the training style in equestrianism, generally? What is the importance of feel? I have heard this term a lot as a greenhorn.

Ballard: Feel, you can’t teach. It would be comparable to a golf swing. You can’t teach somebody feel. That’s where repetition comes into place. Feel, you would have to associate that with pure natural ability. Some people have more. Some people have less. You include the repetition. So, maybe, those with less understand how to work a horse’s movements.

So, take, for example, I work on a pole line. Two poles on the ground, not even a jump, every time, I walk my own 22 steps. I do that so every single horse that I ride; I know how they make what should be 5 strides in between those 2 poles feel good. Then I can make 6 strides feel good. The repetition of doing that, making me understand the horse’s stride, also helps with the feel. A feel for 5. A feel for 6.

What do I need to do to make it do 5 strides? What do I need to do to shorten it to make it do 6 strides? So, when I do it, I am, specifically thinking, “What do I need to make the horse do to make it feel good?” When the kids are doing it, the horse should already know how to do it. So, I’m teaching them how to feel how 5 feels good and how 6 feels good.

If I change the distance, if I make it 25 steps or 27 steps, you can still do 5 or 6 strides in between those two poles, but it is not consistent. The repetition of keeping it the same every single time, for me, when I am training a horse or when a kid is doing the same exercise; I am trying through exercise to teach them feel.

Jacobsen: The idea of picking a horse for the body build. I’m intuiting picking the horse with the psychology of the person, so understanding the psychology of the horse as part of the feel. Is that part of the feel?

Ballard: Horses have independent thoughts. That’s a problem. We can’t always control them. So, when I pick a horse for a kid, I do think their body types have to be suitable. If a person has shorter legs, I don’t want to put them on a very wide horse. The shorter their legs are, the wider the horse is, the less comfortably their legs will sit on that horse’s body. In a shorter person, I need to create more length. So, it would be more suitable to put them on a normal-bodied horse. So, from their hips, they have the ability to make their legs longer rather than wider if that makes sense.

If a person has short arms, I don’t want to put them on a horse that has a very long neck. Because like I said earlier, otherwise, they don’t have the ability to bend their elbows. Then they get stuck. If they get stuck, a term we’d use is “hanging” on the horse’s mouth. They can’t take or give. They get stuck there. I do think in order to make a good match; their body types have to match.

They have to suit each other. You have to look at each other together and say, “Those two look good.” If you look at a kid on a horse, and from the get-go it looks awkward, then it will probably feel awkward. It is up to the trainer and up to the person as well. They have to say, “I don’t feel that comfortable on this horse. He is too big (or too small) for me.” If the horse has a shorter front end, and if it is a taller person, they will not feel comfortable because they will be looking over its ears.

The taller person needs a horse out in front of it to control their upper body and help them with their balance. So, I’d say, “That’s education.” It is a feel for training and for finding a horse for somebody.

The psychology of it; we don’t have that much control over the thought of horses. I’ve picked out horses for someone before. In that trial, with a horse, you have two or three times to try it.

Say, from the first day to the third day, the horse is jumping higher and giving more air, and looking more careful. You’re thinking, “Wow! I’m doing a great job.” However, what that horse, actually, told me, I didn’t know. The horse was jumping higher and with more care because he was scared. That fear turned into a bad match. So, sometimes, we pick a horse that doesn’t work. It isn’t necessarily our fault.

That horse couldn’t tell us, “What you see is not what I’m thinking.” For the most part, if a horse goes well, for a rider, then you should be able to manage it in a program. I am always, when I sell a horse to a kid, there to ride it. If the kid makes a mistake, or a horse is green or makes a mistake, I have the ability to get on it and fix it. Even myself, the horse’s I jump in the biggest classes; Ilan (Ferder) trains them. He is bigger and stronger.

He instructs them. Then he puts me on them for the final result. It is the same for the kids. We ride them. The professionals ride them. The bigger, the stronger, person manages the horse. The owner should be able to produce the horse. The better the owner gets, the more they are able to do on their horse. The one thing with equestrianism or horse riding, there is no one way better than another.

There are books on horsemanship, but there are no books on individual styles in training. Each rider picks a person that they want to ride with because they believe in them. Each person that they pick to ride with has their own style and their own program; that’s what makes everyone a little different.

Jacobsen: How is this kind of upbringing, thinking about training, and suitability of a horse to a rider, different from Europe? I’m told in some conversations, though early in the series, granted, about the difference between the Western European and North American mindset about training and selection of rider to horse. It is a little bit different. Is this something that you note as someone more experienced in the field?

Ballard: In the last 20 years, Europe has, definitely, caught up to the North American style of riding. They, certainly, have an edge on the buying, selling, breeding, and the development. So, at your highest level, when you’re talking about the best 100 riders in the world, I don’t think there’s much difference between your European training and North American style training, maybe below that.

The startup, our education is much more sophisticated with the pony-hunters and the equitation, and the customer service. A long time ago in Europe, there weren’t customers. Even individual riders had their own barns, they weren’t involved in a specific training program. Now, even in Europe, the biggest trainers, the biggest dealers, they all have people who work under them as trainers. They have developed our style of training the amateurs, the 1.20, the 1.30, the FEI children.

Even in South America, the best are the best; and it is comparable around the world. North America has a little edge on development. Everyone is developing very fast.

Jacobsen: What convinced them in the last 20 years to make the change (the Europeans)?

Ballard: They saw our success.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Fair enough.

Ballard: Especially with the amateurs buying expensive horses, the U25 has opened a market for sales. The Europeans always had the horses. It was always the Americans going to Europe to buy the expensive horses. Now, it is hard to go to buy the expensive horses because they are keeping them for their own U25 riders. So, they learned from us.

Jacobsen: Do these socioeconomic issues of haves and have-nots, increasing income disparity, wealth disparity, in many countries in the world, impact this sport from the bottom level and up, as a follow-up to that question?

Ballard: There are a lot of people who gain from it. A lot of professionals and dealers who gain from it, who can sell horses more expensive, who are able to have more opportunities because we are working with wealthier clients. Does it make it harder for the average, middle-class family to keep up? Yes. But I think the world always works itself out and always finds a balance. You take Palm Beach and Ocala. Palm Beach is the best of the best.

It is the most expensive. I could go on and on, and on. In Ocala, they have the World Equestrian Centre, which is – literally – the best facility ever made in all of the world. That man offers free stalls. So, you get to go to Ocala and show at the best facility that has ever existed at, maybe, a 1/3rd of the cost of Palm Beach.

You are gaining opportunity. Maybe, you are not riding against the best people in the whole world, but he is offering ridiculous amounts of prize money, beautiful stables. People can go there as a source of income because the overhead, for once in your lifetime, is less than the money offered in prize money. So, that is giving a huge opportunity to people that, maybe, can’t be here. Maybe, if they win enough there, and if they get seen, and if they are in the spotlight, then they have the chance to go work for somebody or to come to Palm Beach for a week and show off what they have.

There is always a way. I am not really a believer in the idea that if you don’t have the means, then you don’t have the chance. I think there’s always a way. You may have to work harder than some other people. But if you want it bad enough, then you are going to do the work anyways.

Jacobsen: What would you consider some of your career highlights post-Maclay?

Ballard: I mean, so many, but the biggest ones would be winning the Nations Cup in Spruce Meadows twice. For a Canadian team, it has only won the Nations Cup there three times. I was on the first winning team; I was on the third winning team. I was double clear in the Nations Cup in Lima for Canada at Pan Am Games. I got to show in Geneva two weeks ago.

I didn’t have my best results [in Geneva], but it is one of the hardest shows to get into. I had the opportunity to show. Sometimes, it is not always based on results, but on opportunities. At the moment, I am the second highest ranked female rider in the entire world. That’s massive. Every year gets better than the last. On Friday, I won the last Grand Prix in 2021. On Sunday, I won the first Grand Prix of 2022.

In three days…

Jacobsen: …[Laughing] feeling pretty good.

Ballard: [Laughing] that’s pretty cool. Not major classes, but to put that on your resume or to talk about, “I won two Grand Prixes in three days and in two different years.”

Jacobsen: I asked some of the young ladies who I work with, some of whom compete. I said, “Is Erynn Ballard a big thing in your industry?” They paused, and then said, “Yeah.” So… [Laughing].

Ballard: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Even bigger!

Ballard: Your background is not horses.

Jacobsen: 3 months into it, maybe, I’m working 7 days a week. Basically, landscaping, gardening, basic stable hand work, anything they need. There’s always work to do. I transitioned out of restaurants because it was supporting the independent journalism. I was thinking, “I’m working ~91hrs/week in restaurants. I want to see what it was like working with horses.”

I sent some resumes out. In a week or two, I was transitioned into working at a stable. So, taking a step back, if I am doing these interviews with the small ranches to trail rides to those who do dressage to those who do hunting or jumping, the whole range of equestrianism starting with Canada. I am sending emails out. In some of the preliminary conversations and interviews, including your own, people are in this industry as a lifestyle.

100%, they are in this as a lifestyle. Or if they aren’t, they weren’t intending it as such. It was a foot in the door phenomenon. They slowly ended up sinking into the industry. Now, they’re here. Reflecting on it more, I am getting more information from different perspectives in the industry.

The issues of those running farms or stables. The issues of land cost, property costs rising; and this causing an issue for some being able to survive. For instance, Leslie Reid sold her property who was a big name in dressage.

Is this something on your radar or something who you have conversations with in Canada about some areas of Canada having rising property prices or bylaw restrictions preventing the full flourishing of the sport in their area of Canada?

Ballard: I think the sport in Canada is not in a great way. I think Ontario is struggling without having The Royal and the creation of this Silver Series. I have done an interview about it before. I think the Silver Series offers more for less. As far as showing at the same venues, it costs you less money. Ontario survived for so long with the idea of The Royal.

Without The Royal, people are looking at different ways to spend their money. They may not be looking to buy a second horse or a better horse. I think the Ontario circuit is struggling. I am a little lucky because my parents own a farm. They have the farm in Tottenham. I am not there anymore because I am here full-time, at least while I have this job. This job could last forever. You never know with a job.

I hope it lasts forever. However, you don’t know. Have there been conversations if their upkeep of the farm is worth having? I don’t know the ultimate answer. We are fortunate. We have a beautiful farm. We can run a business off it. I don’t know what the long-term is for ourselves, personally, or for the long-term of the industry in Ontario.

Without me as a full-time presence out there, will the business be enough to balance the overhead? There’s a lot of businesses in Ontario doing quite well because they have nice properties and the locations. The Silver Series is making offers for lower-level stables to do more. So, in a way, there’s growth, but I don’t know if it is the growth that we are looking for to be stronger.

For a while now, the West Coast has had a stronger presence as far as the higher level of the sport. That’s probably because of what Thunderbird has; they’re so close to Washington state and offer the U.S. ratings. So, pre-Covid, I know it was a huge show for Americans to go to; the West Coast has Spruce Meadows, where Vancouver does quite well in the Hunters and Equitation because of their proximity to the U.S.

Spruce Meadows is Spruce Meadows. It is the coolest place to show and everyone wants to go there. I think the West Coast is stronger than the East Coast. I think Ontario is suffering.

Jacobsen: Do the higher ranked performers in hunter and jumper ever have sit-down discussions and meals to discuss these issues?

Ballard: Not really, we’re quite a diverse group of people. We have our own strengths and weaknesses. I am not afraid to talk. People have asked my opinion. If they ask me my opinion, I’ll give it. But some people don’t want to hear it.

The supporters of Silver Series don’t want to hear that, I think; it is doing more harm than good to the highest level of the sport. They’ll come at me with disbelief, which is fine. Maybe, I’m wrong. But I do know there is a gap with what the Silver Series is creating. It is an industry. It is a business. That, I don’t take away from it. It is thriving. I don’t see them taking those riders and turning them into U25 riders and 5-star riders, and riders for Canada.

I see it like being in a club, like a camp. I’ve said many times. Ontario, when it was The Royal, especially, it was an exclusive riding camp. You went to x amount of horse shows a summer to go to The Royal. The way that the layout is in Toronto. Very few people have to pay hotels. They live in Toronto and the shows are quite close and their stables are quite close. They keep the overhead quite low. They know how much it will cost from April to November.

If they have the ability, they go to Florida from December to April, and then go back to camp for the Summer.

Jacobsen: Looking at 2022, what competitions, events, or speaking engagements if you have them, are you looking forward to?

Ballard: Right now, if you’re talking about high performance, we’re working backwards from the 2024 Paris Olympics. So, Paris is the ultimate goal in three years. The easiest way to qualify for Paris is to get a result at the World Championships this year. So, working backwards from Paris, we need to be good enough at the World Championships this year, so we can take some pressure off ourselves at the Pan Ams to qualify for the Olympics this year, and then build for the next two years for Paris.

So, this is probably the most important year moving forward, in terms of high performance. Past that, I simply really like showing. I am looking for more experience in Europe if that comes my way. Right now, I am an employee. I have a great job, but, at the same time, I have to do what I’m told. I don’t necessarily not get to go to pretty cool places. So, I don’t have any complaints.

Jacobsen: Hypothetical, in some future, if you had the freedom to not have to do what you’re told, and only had to do what you wanted to tell yourself to do, what would you do?

Ballard: I’m not really sure if I would do anything differently.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Ballard: I believe you have to go where you are the strongest. You make a plan, accordingly, for the horses that you have with you. If you don’t have the best horses in your string, you don’t go to Spruce Meadows. You stay where you’re competitive. If you have a 1.45m horse, you jump 1.45m. You win at 1.45m. If you have a 1.45m horse, and try to jump 1.55m, and if you’re not making your result, you can’t be mad.

You signed up to not be good. I think that that’s something hard in our sport as far as wherever I go I want to feel like I have the chance to win. I never want to go in over my head. Even going to Geneva, I didn’t have my best horse show, but I had my best horses. My best horses in 5-star, in Mexico, in Spruce Meadows, in Sacramento.

So, I went with my best horses and didn’t have my best show, and that happens too. But I would never go to the biggest show of my life without my best horses. I’d pick another show. There are so many. There are five horse shows every single week. So, you have to make smart choices. Five years from now, it depends on the horses.

If I’m going to not have Grand Prix horses, then I go back to riding hunters. Then I want to ride the best hunters. I want to go to Derby Finals and want to be champion in The Royal in the hunters. The thing about me, I like riding so much. It doesn’t matter where I ride. But wherever I go, I don’t want to lose.

Jacobsen: What’s the feeling of love while you’re riding? Can you add more tone to it?

Ballard: I just don’t think there’s anything else I would do. You meet a lot of people in this sport who are good at riding or, ten years later, as you said, fell into this. Maybe, they are unhappy. Trust me, there are plenty of people. If you talk to everybody, everybody in the whole world, there would be more people who feel like they have to ride or have to be in the industry, because there’s nothing else they can do, rather than people who feel lucky to be in the industry.

There will be a group of people who are lying if they tell you; that they feel lucky to do it every single day. Because not everybody does, but I do.

Jacobsen: My sense of you is two things. One is a pragmatism. Another is a realism. Where you don’t go to a competition ill-equipped, ill-prepared, or with the wrong expectations, the expectations seem accurate and proportional to the reality of the situation. It’s not pessimistic. It’s not pollyannish. Have you noticed other riders who make it – so to speak – who have a different outlook, or are most, at this very high level of competitiveness, pragmatic and realist?

Ballard: I don’t know, actually. I don’t know. That would be up to you, to talk to enough people.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] When I finish with Canada, I will move to other areas to see about the findings. It’s interesting. I am learning along as I do this series. It is very educational.

Ballard: Also, if you’re only talking to people about horses, then you also have to have a passion for horses. It is not something you can understand if you don’t like them. It’s so foreign to a normal 9-5 job. Because it is a lifestyle. If you didn’t have a sense of the passion people get when they’re around horses, then you wouldn’t enjoy this. Equally, there are people who start out with a passion and get burned out, or get stuck.

They thought that they really wanted to do this. Maybe, they didn’t, but they don’t know what else they can do. They got in over their head. It cost too much money. It is a hard industry to make money, very hard, because the overhead is so high. You make $25,000 a month. But it costs you $35,000 to get to the end of the month.

If you’re talking about a boarding stable, what is the right way to do it. How do you charge enough? So that, at the end of the month, you are not losing money. Where are you making your money? Where do you gain to make it worth your while? When does the lifestyle [Laughing] part kick in? There’s not many Canadians who have the opportunity that I do.

So, I think that that, maybe, is something. I have seen both sides of it. I won my first Nations Cup at Spruce Meadows when I was 25. I didn’t ride on another team for 10 years. I stayed home, made a business, rode hunters, and taught riding lessons. That’s all I could do. That’s all the opportunity I had. I couldn’t go to the horse shows because my horses weren’t good enough.

So, practice what you’re good at and work on the opportunity given to you, it is not a job for the faint at heart. It is not for someone who doesn’t work 24 hours a day.

Jacobsen: Every person who I met who competes and works in the stables, or as a full-time in the stables, have all been incredibly impressive in their own ways. Some have tragic personal histories and have overcome them. The work ethic is there.

Ballard: People are drawn to horses, maybe, if they aren’t good with people.

Jacobsen: That’s an interesting hypothesis, maybe.

Ballard: A connection with the horse that they can’t have with the person. The turnover in my life, as far as clients who ride with me – and people who work for me, is very high, very. Grooms come and go, there’s students, young kids, even riders. A lot of girls ride until they turn 15 or 16. Then they have a choice to make. Are they going to keep riding, to go skiing, to go hang out with boys, to go to university? At the younger age, it is mostly girls.

If a teenager sticks through that stage, maybe, they’re not that social. They don’t love going to the parties on the weekend. Or they struggle with being in a school, in girl gangs. They like horses. They hang out with horses. Then they create a friend group, which they didn’t think they could have in school because they have a common interest with other kids in horses. Maybe, they don’t want to go to university.

They have to work for a living, so they become a groom. Maybe, they want to go to law school, but they don’t have enough money. So, they groom on the weekends. The turnover of people who work in the industry versus me is high, because not everyone is a lifer.

Jacobsen: What do you attribute the endurance to?

Ballard: Mine?

Jacobsen: Yes!

Ballard: I think I’m a crazy person. I just have more energy than most people.

Jacobsen: How many hours a week are you working?

Ballard: Oh! I don’t even want to count!

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Ballard: October, November, December, all of October, all of November, first two weeks of December, I was never in the same place for more than one week.

Jacobsen: That’s a lot.

Ballard: I was back in Florida for a week at a time before I went somewhere else. For three months, basically, I was never in one place for more than a week. By the time I came home from Geneva, I had 7 suitcases packed. I sent one home from California. I sent one home from Vegas. I sent this one with the horses. My garage was an explosion of suitcases.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Ballard: I unpacked every suitcase, but one. I don’t know where all these clothes are going to go. We are gypsies. We live on the road. I went from California to Geneva. I had a bathing suit and the Lululemon puffy jacket that went to my ankles. You never know where you’re going to be. You take your passport with you everywhere.

Because, at a moment’s notice, you can go to Europe and not expect to, “You need to try a horse.” We are high energy people in general. We don’t need the structure of 9-5 and weekends off. We thrive on this crazy lifestyle. We get to see the world. But yes, most of us are a little bit crazy.

Jacobsen: In spite of the endurance and the affirmation of doing it, whatever “it” is at the time, what moments in your career have you ever felt a halt internally, almost as if, ‘I can’t do this,” or a feeling of “I don’t have enough in me”?

Ballard: I think just the summer I got hurt, which was 2013. I broke my collar bone and my shoulder joint. I shattered my scapula. I was out for 16 weeks. There was a minute, where I was walking around; I was teaching riding lessons. I was going to the horse shows. It is the only time in my life where I hadn’t.

There was a minute. I was like, “I don’t need to ride to make money. I don’t need ever need to get back on a horse to make money. I can teach. I can give clinics. But I don’t have to do that. If I don’t do that, then I won’t ever be hurt like this again.” That lasted a minute until I got back on a horse again. Then it was over.

I think, any time you’re hurt. You’re down anyways. I came back from that stronger than ever. I came back from the injury. Two years later, I was on a team. I hadn’t been on a team in 10 years. Maybe, it was the reset that I needed to figure out what I wanted to do for the rest of my life. I don’t feel that, not yet, anyways.

Jacobsen: When you were a kid, as many Canadian kids do, they write careers that they wanted when they were younger, what they thought they wanted to pursue in the maturity of a child’s mind. Do you recall what those career choices would have been for you?

Ballard: I don’t think there was ever a question.

Jacobsen: Why did you focus on jumping, by the way?

Ballard: That’s the sport that my grandpa was captain of the Canadian team. So, I guess, it is in my blood.

Footnotes

[1] Canadian Show Jumping Veteran.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

[3] Image Credit: Jump Media.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism[Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 12: Erynn Ballard on Canadian Equestrianism[Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/ballard-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-06-22

The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,759

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Kailin Howard is a horse owner and assistant trainer at Reaching Strides Equestrian Centre. She discusses: horses; first horse; factors to consider when buying a first horse; get a horse to learn the basics; earliest dreams; the importance of the social activity; build rapport with a client and with clientele; important lessons; bottom-up care; the industry; the stewardship of Nadine Bollig; student-teacher relationship; the competitions; horse trainer for a living; and involved with equestrianism.

Keywords: equestrianism, equine, horses, Kailin Howard, Nova Scotia, Reaching Strides Equestrian Centre, trainer.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How did you get interested in horses?

Kailin Howard[1],[2]*: I’ve loved horses for as long as I can remember. They were my favourite animal as a child and even as an adult I get that excited feeling when I drive by a field and see them grazing. The little girl inside me still goes “Look, horses!” My parents made my dreams come true when I was 8 and put me in lessons and I’ve been hooked ever since. I’m 29 now and the dream is still very much alive.

Jacobsen: When did you purchase your first horse?

Howard: I bought my first horses when I was 21. I had been leasing and showing one of my coach’s horses for a few years at that point and he was the horse I had always wanted. I ended up purchasing him and his pasture companion, a miniature, as a package.

Jacobsen: What are the factors to consider when buying a first horse compared to a second, third, etc., horse? Things like financials, age, quality, breed, pedigree, etc.

Howard: Some major things to consider are just the environment you are providing. Do I have adequate shelter, food, water, and space for them to move? Horses are also a herd animal; they don’t thrive when they are alone. So, when buying that first horse, you also have to consider the fact that you’ll need companionship for it. Or will you board it at a facility? A huge issue we’re having in Nova Scotia right now is that there is a major vet and farrier shortage. So, is there access to emergency medical care? Can my horse get regular trimmings? Finances are, of course, a big consideration; horses are not a cheap animal to have. The older they get the more care they’ll obviously need so in the long term; can you support that horse through every stage of its life and through the problems those stages may have? Pedigree is absolutely something great to search through if you have access to that information. Medical histories, neurological issues you may encounter, all better to know that ahead of purchasing. Picking the right horse for you and where you are at or want to be is crucial. For example, I wouldn’t purchase a horse trained for show jumping to be my cattle penning horse. Get the horse that’s suited to your level of horsemanship. Consult with your coach, trainer, vet, farrier. Use the resources available to you and get those professional opinions.

Jacobsen: How do you get a horse to learn the basics of what a rider needs them to do?

Howard: The basics in getting a horse to understand what I need them to do for me always starts on the ground. Horses rely a lot on body language and reading energy. They’re a flight animal, so training them to go against those natural instincts is not started by throwing a saddle on and climbing up. They react to pressures and a feeling, they’re extremely intuitive. You’ve likely heard the term “horse whispering,” which is both comical and kind of accurate. You can say “go to the right” all day and a horse is not going to move, so you have to communicate with a language they understand, which sort of looks like you’re ‘whispering’ to them. I use a series of exercises on the ground to get them to understand the give and take of pressure, so that when I get to the saddle and I ask them to go to the right with my body; they have an idea of what it is I’m asking them to do. That’s very summarized! Training some takes longer than others, even the basics, can vary greatly from horse to horse.

Jacobsen: What were your earliest dreams with horses as an early equestrian?

Howard: Just being around these animals was enough for me, I never had specific dreams in mind. I was just obsessed with all thing’s horses. My biggest goals once I started riding were mainly jumping related. I thought the older girls were so cool and had no fear when they were doing a course and I wanted to be able to do what they did. They were always riding multiple or different horses as well and I remember wanting that confidence and that knowledge to adjust to each horse just like them.

Jacobsen: What is the importance of the social activity and aspect of equestrianism? I notice this with women equestrians, trainers and clientele. When tacking up, just small chit-chatter is huge, it’s not only a hobby or preparation for competition. It’s a social club.

Howard: It really is! My closest friends are all horse people. The equestrian world in Nova Scotia is fairly small, so everyone pretty well knows everyone; and it’s not hard to get connected to others if you start asking around. You’ve got friends near and far so when we meet up at shows or events it could be the first time you’ve seen that person in years; and it’s like you talked to them yesterday. It’s very timeless in that sense. It’s also a great way to bounce ideas around business wise or for your own personal equestrian journey. Horse people are a different breed; it doesn’t really matter what might necessarily be going on in your personal lives, when equestrians get together you all have a huge common interest that connects you, regardless of even what discipline you are in. We also can’t seem to stop talking about horses. You throw a couple horse people in a room and they’re going to be going on and on for the next few hours.

Jacobsen: How do you build rapport with a client and with clientele as an assistant trainer?

Howard: Staying open, honest and friendly to questions, concerns or any discussions they may want to bring up. Having just as much patience to the learning experience with the clients as we do the animals, a lot of the clients I’ve met over the last few years need to learn the questions I’m asking the horse just as much as the horse does. We don’t believe in just training the horse, but the clients as well. We can teach the horse how to carry the rider or work on whatever the issue may be but if the client doesn’t understand how to ask the question, how does the horse know how to answer? Like having all the power tools you need to build a house, but no idea how to use them. If the horse has all the answers, but the rider isn’t asking them correctly then that leads to frustration; and you could be taking more steps back than you did forward. Which then leads to an upset client, it comes back on the trainer. Having the client be a part of the training process is critical in my opinion, it sets both horse and rider up for a more successful relationship in the future.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more important lessons taught by the more senior trainers?

Howard: To have patience no matter how you’re feeling. Your feelings don’t matter, you have to leave them outside the ring. Horses can feel your emotions by reading your energy and body language. If you’re already frustrated or anxious, the horse thinks they have a reason to feel the same thing, they mimic us. They look to us for security; this comes back to the herd mentality. If I’m worked up, then they think they should be as well. The old saying goes, “If you act like you have all day, it will take 5 minutes. If you act like you have 5 minutes, it will take all day”. All horses have a learning curve, just like people do. One horse might catch on faster to what it is I’m asking than another horse will, and where one is better at math, the other is better at science, you know? You also may need to ask the question differently, because that horse doesn’t understand even though the last 10 horses did. And just when you think you know it all or you’ve seen it all, a horse comes along to remind you that you haven’t. Stay humble! The learning never stops, there is always something new to learn or a different method to acquire.

Jacobsen: For those who don’t know, what is the bottom-up care required for taking care of a horse? I’ve most consistently heard of equestrianism as a “lifestyle.” In that, one must live this day-in, day-out to properly care for the horse(s) and maintain standards as a rider.

Howard: There is more maintenance in taking care of horses than people realize but there are 3 basic things they need. Food, water, shelter. Some horses are what we call more easy keepers than others. Some just have that more fit physique no matter how much they eat and others just breathe on grass and they’ll be on the thicker side. Having good hay or forage is the most important, horses are grazers, so they eat constantly, having access to forage 24/7 is the most ideal to prevent health issues, such as ulcers and colic. That’s also considering a horse is getting exercise as well, because eating too much can also create health issues. You may need to supply a grain regiment if the quality of your forage isn’t fantastic because they’ll be lacking on a lot of nutrients and vitamins. Access to lots of fresh water, helps keep their guts moving and processing that food, so they don’t colic. Finally shelter, horses are tough, but they need that shelter to get a reprieve from the elements. Depending on the climate of your location they may need to be blanketed if they don’t grow the best coat. It’s more desired to let the horse live as naturally as possible, but human intervention over the last 100 years has changed that and some horses are just not built for that ‘natural’ way of life. They need their feet trimmed around every 6-8 weeks, some grow a better foot than others, so depending on that and the level of exercise they are getting; they may need to be trimmed less or more often and some may need shoes. Medical checkups every year for teeth and vaccinations. This is all just the base essentials that they need. The tip of the horse care iceberg.

Jacobsen: How does the industry look to you, at the moment?

Howard: The horse world can be sort of “cliquey”, there are a lot of equestrians that think their equestrian lifestyle is the one and only lifestyle, but I find that’s slowly changing. The world is getting bigger and there are more options for equestrians in NS to choose from. As in what kind of relationship or discipline they want to embark on, people are becoming more open to trying different things. I’m hopeful for what’s to come in the future in that aspect. Something I’m seeing a lot of unfortunately are people buying horses with almost none or very little prior horse experience. It sounds like a lovely dream to own a horse, but it’s not just a matter of giving them food and water every day. You could have a horse that is harder to handle and end up getting seriously hurt. You panic, sell the horse, and the next person gets hurt or the horse gets hurt, or that horse gets shuffled around for the next 10 years and has a very erratic life. It’s a story I’ve seen too many times over the last couple years: Getting a horse is not like getting a dog. They NEED training and if you don’t have any, then you need training too. That’s such a no brainer for me. To not only keep people safe, but to keep the horses safe as well.

Jacobsen: Also, how did you come under the stewardship of Nadine Bollig?

Howard: I’ve known Nadine since I was 11, when I started taking lessons at her stable just outside Antigonish. When I became a more advanced student, I rode a few ‘green’ horses for her to help them further along with their training, mostly putting some miles on them. I also worked for her as a farm hand from age 16-20. When she relocated to her new place about 10 years ago, I ended up buying my show horse from her and we stayed in contact even though at the time I couldn’t be a full time student or employee anymore. In 2020 she asked me if I wanted some part time work putting some exercise rides on a couple horses for her and now here we are!

Jacobsen: How has your student-teacher relationship evolved over time?

Howard: We work really well together. I’ve known her for so long and she’s been a friend to me for years; we really balance each other out and we pride ourselves on being honest with each other. Over the last year, we’ve been reinventing the business plan and the goal is providing a facility for what we’re calling horse lessons as opposed to just riding lessons. Helping people build relationships with horses whether that’s something they want to do in the saddle or just on the ground. Nadine’s biggest passion is training and when I started riding those greenies for her at 15, I found a passion for it as well. It’s come full circle, the horses taught me and now I’m teaching them. It’s very rewarding! Nadine has been passing all of her knowledge onto me ever since I was little and we’re also gaining some new skills together, she’s given me this opportunity to learn more and she has pushed me to really believe in my abilities, so I’m very grateful for her.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the competitions you’ve taken part?

Howard: I’ve been showing since I was 12, mostly competing in local shows and fairs. I’ve done a few higher-level jumping competitions, but nothing seriously on the circuit. Mainly hunter/jumper shows. I have a healthy fear of jumping, but also a love for it. It’s quite addicting holding on for dear life on the back of a 1500 lb animal running at obstacles.

Jacobsen: How do you intend to become a long-term horse trainer for a living?

Howard: Living in rural Nova Scotia and trying to live the dream of an equestrian takes a lot of balance. It’s not easy. Stables are far in between, and every facility offers something different. Training and looking after horses is my dream job and I still have that, but living where I live you have to have a job that supports the dream job. Nadine’s given me that chance by letting me become a part of her business, letting me work with a few of her clients and helping me build up my skills and methods. She wants to see me succeed and she’s very supportive. She’s always thinking of the horses and if there’s another trainer out there available to the horses and the people who need them than she’s happy to help me on my journey. I’m also always open to learning, you have to be, I think, to be a reputable horse trainer. There’s ALWAYS something new to learn. I hope one day, further down the road, to open my own little barn and facility where others can come to learn.

Jacobsen: How can people get involved with equestrianism or with you?

Howard: Research a stable that has a program that works for you. Ask around, find out what different barns offer and decide based on your level and what you want to learn. Be honest about what you know and what you want to learn, even if you’re starting from scratch, there’s no shame in it! Everyone starts somewhere. If it’s something you really want, the enthusiasm is very appreciated. I operate mainly out of Reaching Strides, but I have travelled locally to help people with small issues out of their own backyards. I’m not an expert by any means, but I have a strong intuition. I’ve worked with many, many different horsey personalities, so I have confidence in my own skills and if I don’t know the answer; I’m not shy to admit it, and I’ll work on it and get back to you.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Kailin.

Howard: Thank you for the opportunity, Scott!

Footnotes

[1] Horse Owner, Assistant Trainer, Reaching Strides Equestrian Centre.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care[Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 11: Kailin Howard on Horse Ownership and Care[Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/howard.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-06-22

Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,653

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Erik Haereid, born in 1963, grew up in Oslo, Norway. He studied mathematics, statistics and actuarial science at the University of Oslo in the 1980s and 90s, and is educated as an actuary. He has worked over thirty years as an actuary, in several insurance companies, as actuarial consultant, middle manager and broker. In addition, he has worked as an academic director (insurance) in a business school (BI). Now, he runs his own actuarial consulting company with two other actuaries. He is a former member of Mensa, and is a member of some high IQ societies (e.g., Olympiq, Glia, Generiq, VeNuS and WGD). He discusses: Actuarial Sciences; an actuary; the risks calculated by an actuary; a governmental or an individual basis; the requirements for becoming an actuary; the requirements for maintaining certification as an actuary; organizations; and the reputation of Actuarial Sciences.

Keywords: Actuarial Sciences, actuary, Erik Haereid, mathematics, statistics.

Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You are the only person who I know with an expertise in Actuarial Sciences, except a distant family member, apparently, if I remember vaguely correctly. Anyhow, I reached out to do an educational series on this because I like working you. You’re knowledgeable and give solid responses to questions. You think about things. So, first session, is boiler plate stuff, defining terms in an accessible manner: What are Actuarial Sciences?

Erik Haereid[1],[2]*: As you say, I don’t like one or two sentence answers if I have more on my mind. Actuarial science could be defined by a few words, because the essence is mathematics and theoretical statistics on an M.Sc.-level, with additional education into insurance-related mathematics, relevant probability theories, some economics and finance theory, and computer science. The latter two is “new”; I didn’t study finance theories or computer science when I did this in the 1980’s. Before the 1980’s there were, at least in Norway, more economics and insurance business-related topics included in the education. The actuaries’ task or aim was not only to know about the fundamental math behind the many calculations of premiums and reserves, but also to manage to drive an insurance company as consultants and executives. Since this seemed to be a too big task for one education and profession, one focused educationally on the foundation of the insurance business; learn how to assess the right premiums and reserves.

I have to add that in many countries, actuarial sciences are also connected to the asset-side, creating statistical models that maximizes pension funds and other types of investments. Traditionally, and especially in my country Norway, actuarial science has primarily been about the liability-side of the business. Since actuarial science is about analyzing risks, actuaries are also used in other types of businesses than the insurance business, e.g., in general risk management.

So, actuarial science is primarily about insurance engineering. It’s the evolution of different mathematical methods used to create the best possible premiums and reserves. It’s also about stability; no one wants the premiums to deviate too much from a standard. It’s about trust. It’s about setting the premiums as right, i.e., low, as possible to meet the customers need. And it’s about sharing risks; dividing the insured into decent and political accepted groups, which both are acceptable for the people but also subject for optimal mathematical structures. E.g., it’s both political accepted and mathematical possible to divide cars into “expensive, new ones” and “not so expensive, old ones”, and people concerning life insurances into “people with low risk for death” and “people with high risk for death”. A 52 year old accepts that a 25 year old pays less for his life insurance. And because of enough data (experience) and good mathematical structures we can draw a life table with good estimates of probability for death, for each age.

The challenge has not only been finding the best mathematical methods, but to satisfy dramatic changes into certain risks (e.g., that people live much longer now than only a few decades ago) and establishing new risk factors where one so far has operated with assumptions (e.g., making interest rates stochastic within the insurance products).

For example, the old saving products (pensions, annuities and the like) contained some kind of death risk in the annuity. E.g., if you saved money to your pension, and died before you got some or all your savings, the insurance company kept the money or some of it (other saving products were the other way around; you got more than your savings if one died, and for that you paid a higher premium). This was a part of the product; in return the insured paid less premium. Most people didn’t accept this reverse insurance business, and wanted the bereaved to get exactly the savings if the insured died. But this is not insurance; this is bank without any economic risk if death. To label it “pension”, you have to include some kind of economic risk that you as an insured want to share with others. Then the insurance business constructed products that was close to bank savings, but had a small (but big enough for the authorities) internal risk factor that qualified them as “pensions” or the like; not a clean bank product.

If you don’t have any clue about the risk, you will for sure raise the premiums to an unacceptable level for the customers, avoiding bankruptcy. But then you don’t have a business; then people would create some sort of self-insurance. Insured events are in their nature random, or stochastic, which is a more common used word in probability theory, which is the basis of actuarial science. Its purpose is to find procedures for setting the optimal probability for an event you don’t know where, when and if will occur, and through that give it a value. Remember, insurance is usually (excludes annuities and saving products) about paying money which you hope you don’t get back.

Jacobsen: What is an actuary?

Haereid: An actuary is an insurance engineer; a person that have studied actuarial science and has some qualifications (usually nearby a Master of Science); an expert in building and use the mathematical framework to assess risks.

Actuaries are traditionally involved in the liability-side of the insurance business, ensuring that the single premiums and the total reserves are enough to fulfill the insurance unit’s obligations towards the insured. It’s basically two types of actuaries (two branches); actuaries that specializes in life insurance, annuities, pensions and so on (persons) and those whose discipline is casualty insurance (non-life).

My impression is that actuaries traditionally are more involved in the total insurance business in countries like UK and USA, than in Norway and many other countries, where specialization is more common. I think this has to do with the specific culture. In USA, the actuary profession is seen as one of the most important and desirable ones, while in Norway most people don’t know what an actuary is.

Jacobsen: What are the risks calculated by an actuary, often? Those most concerning or pertinent to the public with an interest in determining risk.

Haereid: There are different kinds of insurance-related risks, depending of which country you live in and what kind of insurance company you use. There are several risk classes and risk types, and one can read about these elsewhere. I will mention a few types, that may be of public interest.

Usually, the risks are as mentioned divided into two segments; life and non-life risks. Life risks, or person-related risks if you want, are typically death, disability, health-related risks, injuries, survival. Non-life risks are everything else; insured things or actions; property like buildings, vehicles, ships and so on, and actions like job-related mistakes (e.g., advices, consultant services, lawyers etc.) with economic consequences. A risk is linked to what kind of damage the life/thing is exposed to, the cost, and the probability behind that occurrence. Obviously, we always talk about a stochastic, uncertain future event. But the layman can use empirical data to say something about any such risk; you don’t have to use complex methods to say something about the risk for car damage or house fire. There is a lot of information on the Internet that would give everyone some ideas about risks. Life tables are probably possible to find and download (I haven’t checked) from different countries and segments of people (like men/women). Then you can say something about the risk part of the premium you pay to your life insurance.

E.g., risk as to car accidents and repair costs. There are several factors and aspects into account, like the model of the car (which steers parameters like how expensive the parts of the car are, and who drive that model (e.g., young risk-taking men drives certain types of cars; in my youth Golf GTI!), where the car is driven (in rural or urban areas), what it is used for (in business or to domestic use) and so on. As to buildings it’s risk factors like location (is it more or less danger for natural catastrophes like wind, water, avalanches and earth quakes), and fire (how are the buildings secured as to electricity and fire), costs (size, material, where and when and so on). You may also take into concern who lives there or uses it, how many and what type of use of the building and so on.

In insurances connected to one’s life, it’s relevant with risks like death, survival and health (e.g., disability). Life tables (death-probabilities) are usually divided into sex and age (risk classes); a woman has less probability dying than a man, and since it’s uncontroversial dividing premiums between men and woman, women pay less for their death insurance than men. The same with age; old people accept that they pay higher premiums for death benefits than young people. You could obviously divide the risks into more and smaller groups and classes, within decent statistical models, but of political and other reasons, one usually doesn’t. E.g., dividing into professions and lifestyles would be mathematically right (it’s clearly a statistical difference in risks for death (like it is for accidents and disability) between certain professions and lifestyles, as showed, e.g., in the movie Along Came Polly).

The risk I am most involved in is risk for survival. That’s the most obscure and amusing one, because it turns the business upside down. Normally you pay a premium in case of an unexpected event where you receive some money. Here you get a discount because the insurance company keep your savings in case of an event (death). It’s about annuities and pensions, and especially important as to lifelong payments (longevity insurances). People live longer, and this is a risk concerning pension payments. In Norway, in the insurance business, we strengthened the premiums and risk formulas in 2013, adapted to the fact that people live much longer now. The social security system “Folketrygden” (Norway) has gone through severe changes the last few decades, taking into account that people live longer.

In pensions related to employees and work, most companies (worldwide) go, and have gone from, Defined Benefit Pension plans (DBP) to Defined Contribution Pension plans (DCP); to ensure that the company (employer) has cash to fulfill their obligations towards the employees. As to pensions, it’s a huge challenge that we live much longer now than before.

Jacobsen: Are actuaries more often used on a governmental or an individual basis?

Haereid: Most on an individual basis.

Outside the private sector, actuaries are used in developing social security programs and pension schemes for the public, in institutions that supervises the insurance business, they are employed in special governmental institutions like the Financial Supervisory Authority of Norway (Finanstilsynet) and the Norwegian Public Service Fund (Statens Pensjonskasse). In UK you have institutions like the Government Actuary’s Department, and in USA the Social Security Administration, where actuaries are involved.

But most actuaries are employed in the insurance business; in insurance companies or as actuary consultants (as I am).

Jacobsen: What are the requirements for becoming an actuary, e.g., educational attainment/qualifications, formalized tests for certification, etc.?

Haereid: In my and some other countries the basic are mathematics, theoretical statistics (probability theory) and insurance-related mathematics on an M.Sc.-level (in some other countries you need less math and statistics (on a bachelor-level), but more diverse topics like computer science and finance-related mathematics and economics). In addition, there are some economics, financial economics and computer science. The education is comprehensive, and differs some between countries.

In Norway, the education is at universities. Before the 1980’s (when I studied), it was less math and probability theory, and more practical disciplines like economics and business administration. In my time, in the 1980’s, there was primarily mathematics, theoretical statistics and insurance-related mathematics. I have a M.Sc. in math/statistics from the University in Oslo. I didn’t know much about practical insurance before I learned it in my first jobs. But I knew something about how one created the insurance premiums and reserves.

Jacobsen: In Norway, and other countries if applicable, what are the requirements for maintaining certification as an actuary?

Haereid: There are some loose requirements about evolving educationally within topics like computer programming and finance mathematics, but one doesn’t lose one’s actuary title if one drops further education late in life and career; in Norway. (I am not sure about other countries’ practice.) One just loses work opportunities. Old actuaries, like me, fit into other parts of the actuarial realm. We know a lot, which younger actuaries don’t. We have some skills both as to our education and experience through a lot of years, that young actuaries need and don’t get through education or limited practice.

Jacobsen: In Norway, and other countries if applicable, what organizations coordinate, regulate, and standardize, the national and local actuaries, e.g., punish frauds, update community on standards, etc.?

Haereid: The local national actuary associations (e.g., The Norwegian Society of Actuaries; Den Norske Aktuarforening) make guidelines and standards that actuaries should follow. You also have global actuary umbrella associations, like AAE (the Actuarial Association of Europe) and IAA (the International Actuarial Association), which set global standards.

Beyond these there are some variations between countries as to standards, regulations, punishment procedures and so on. In Norway, the overall finance business is supervised by the Financial Supervisory Authority (Finanstilsynet). There are strict rules of what to do and not, including how the mathematical framework shall look like, and that the actuaries fulfill their obligations. E.g., in the early 1990’s I contributed to the mathematical groundwork for a new pension product in Norway, created by the insurance company I then worked for. It was based on old framework, but a lot of the structure was new. Then we had to get acceptance from the Financial Supervisory Authority to sell the new product with its mathematical framework.

If the political environment wants to change any laws concerning insurances, the actuaries are involved both as a consultative body (mainly through the national actuary association) and as contributors to mathematical structures.

Jacobsen: I’m told Actuarial Sciences are highly difficult. A lot of people can’t take the cognitive demands. Is this true? Whether so or not, why is this the reputation of Actuarial Sciences?

Haereid: You have to have the cognitive ability to understand mathematics and statistics up to a certain level (M.Sc.), but you don’t have to have any high IQ beyond that. If you have a dyscalculia but hold a 130 or 150 IQ, you can’t be an actuary, but maybe a genius in other areas.

The reputation is kind of a romantic perception; insurance is quite aware in most adult’s heads. People talk and think about it a lot. Everyone have ideas about sharing risk, and that there has to be some principles behind the procedures that evolves into what they pay. Because people know something about this, they tend to admire or respect even more those who knows this area fully. Maybe it’s something like that. It’s the same as when students look up to their professors, but the professors’ children don’t. It awakes the curiosity about what is on the other side of the mountains you see in front of you, but not about what you don’t see behind you. And because it’s quite difficult and one need time to evolve this kind of knowledge, and it’s not possible to explain in a simple way to the laymen, people tend to admire it even more. Another reason could be that most actuaries emphasize their theoretical background when they work and deal with ordinary employees and customers in the insurance realm, in the sense that actuaries seem like boring and dry human types, and that this is expressed by actuaries as an identification they get some positive from. Most actuaries are less boring and theoretical than most people think, but the actuaries themselves don’t want to reveal this “normal” trait!

Footnotes

[1] Member, World Genius Directory. Actuary.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1) [Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 22). Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1) . Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1.

Brazilian Natio0ffffffnal Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1) ’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Actuarial Sciences 1: Erik Haereid, M.Sc., on Actuarial Sciences and Actuaries (1) [Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/actuarial-sciences-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-22

Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,502

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Olav Hoel Dørum was the Ombudsman for Mensa Norway. He discusses: social philosophy; economic philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; worldview-encompassing philosophical system; meaning in life; meaning externally derived; an afterlife; the mystery and transience of life; and love.

Keywords: economics, life, love, Mensa Norway, metaphysics, Norwegian, Olav Hoel Dørum, philosophy.

Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*Interview conducted January 2, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Olav Hoel Dørum[1],[2]*: Since this is the first question I will explain how I understand these topics so the reader has a reference throughout the interview. Various directions in philosophy, economy and political ideologies each represents a complete set of instructions on how to relate to the world. While many have elements highly valuable for different cultures and states, each model is in itself insufficient as humans are too diverse in personality, intelligence and motives to fit in to the often narrow and homogenous mindset and behavior described in the various thought systems.

Almost every philosophy, economical theory and political ideologies are self-referring, meaning that the concept of wrong exists as a contrast to other thought systems. There is no such thing as a defined saturation point in which we have enough capitalism or communism to use those as examples. The only way to validate an idea is to have an external criterion with measurable properties such as longevity, health care, stability and progress – even if this is limited and a somewhat subjective perception of what constitutes a good life. Handling complexity such as moral contradictions requires a level of academic discipline which often is too demanding. People are generally not good at simultaneously holding multiple ideas and values. My focus is on what type of people a mindset produces, rather than the moral and ethical foundation of that mindset. Even when there are no logical incompatibilities one value usually ends up as dominant.

To answer the first question, I would look to the East-Asian cultures which are more organized and collective in nature. They score lower on the both press freedom- and individual choice index, but it does not mean that the society feels unsafe or limiting for the individual. Interesting enough, there are reports suggesting that the perceived social pressure is higher in Norway than in Japan, which sounds contradicting since we have more focus on individual rights. It is easier to implement policies that are for the common good in a culturally and socially homogeneous population. Their culture is more resilient to change, which impedes progress in example LGBT-rights. But as a whole, their work ethic, social conscience, structure and reaction to crisis is admirable.

Jacobsen: What economic philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Dørum: Since income is moderately to strongly related to mental and physical health, including decision-making abilities, we should offer social programs and other benefits to those worse off – offering a predictable and available safety net. Most of the studies are correlation studies, so we cannot say if the variables are a result of a common underlying factor. We know intelligence and personality accounts for a significant proportion of economic success, but the cause is irrelevant in this matter. Poverty, including relative poverty which is a perception rather than objective criteria for wealth, is connected to crime. Income differences could lead to more political instability, segregation and lack of trust in a culturally diverse country. Hence, the social democratic platform seems the most reasonable. I do not advocate socialism, which is governmental controlled means of production, but capitalism with social programs known as “welfare capitalism”. The culture must come first, then the economic model. When a new economic model is introduced, there will be a gradually transition until it comes at a halt and the result will inevitably be a corruption of the ideal. After the fall of the Soviet Union, Russian capitalism became oligarchy. In America, capitalism has grown into corporatism. A political ideology alone is not enough.

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Dørum: Distribution of power through democracy. I do not argue from an enlightened mass, but solely as a preventative measure against the centralization of power. It’s tempting to see the advantages of the Chinese one-party-state, but they are also a highly advanced dictatorship. John Rawls idea of “Justice as fairness” is inspiring, but goes too far in his pursuit of inequality by disruption the distribution of wealth in such a way that we get a bloated bureaucracy and a too slow growing economy. To build a society we all would like to live in if we in advance do not know who we will be, is an excellent mantra. Most people seem to approach such questions with the assumption that their success would be within reach with a different set of abilities.

Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes some sense to you, even the most workable sense to you?

Dørum: I have a weak spot for Immanuel Kant. Kant argues that our cognition has two components, one sensory and one of the rational mind. True cognition is only possible by combining these two. It sounds like the diplomatic middle road doesn’t it, but it’s not hard to find branches that put too much emphasis on, or relies on, the concept of free will – such as laissez-faire capitalism and objectivism. The concept of not having free will is foreign for many of us. I like the part of Hume’s thinking that unites freedom, moral responsibility and soft determinism. Philosophical systems that speak highly of free often disregards, or do not seem to understand, how perception is shaped by ideology. Even our ability to tell colors apart, time perception and simple numerical understanding (multitudes and magnitudes) are influenced by language, three abilities we assume are determined by biology and not language. There is no conflict between lack of free will and responsibility, just as an action often leads to a predictable effect. Choose your environmental input and parents with care.

Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Dørum: I’m so boring it’s unbelievable, humanism. Most animals that form packs seem to have a sense of fairness. Our amygdala, a cluster of nerves, which is a part of the limbic system – responds quite similar to psychological and physical threats. Sense of vulnerability, even purely philosophical, can trigger a fight, flight or freeze response. We get a more harmonic and stable world that way if people’s sense of safety is kept intact.

Jacobsen: What provides meaning in life for you?

Dørum: There is a Norwegian poem called “Livsveven” (The loom of life) by an anonymous writer. “Not until the loom has stilled, and the shuttle has come to a halt, will God pull the drapes aside, and let us see. That the dark threads so as well as the bright ribbons, together formed the patterned in our Masters mighty hand”. It is difficult to translate the poem in such a way that it recreates the feelings I get when I read it in Norwegian. I get filled with a warm darkness that fills me with peace. My answer would be “depth and dimension”. With age, I can appreciate the difficulties I have gone through, and the painful experiences I have had. I do not know if a more streamlined life would be a happier one. I now feel a deeper contentment. I have a job I love, well established and an active social life. To come to the point where you no longer fear death too much.

Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?

Dørum: Internally generated. If someone has found a meaning with life it seems like they either have genes that promotes development of a certain mindset, or that they have, unknowingly or deliberate, practiced some form of cognitive therapy or metacognition. Most people do as they are genetically instructed and socially encouraged to do, be reasonably successful, socially accepted and find a partner. It doesn’t seem to give them any form of meaning.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, why, and what form? If not, why not?

Dørum: I do not believe in an afterlife. There is no reason why our consciousness would somehow be transferred when the biological processes are terminated. Maybe in a parallel universe as a copy, but nothing religious.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the mystery and transience of life?

Dørum: Life as we define it are chemical reactions and neural activity. Our perception of time is adjusted to our biological life span. One day we might reach and average lifespan of 120-140 years and that would seem normal, or centuries using various technology to keep our consciousness intact. I am sure our perception and understanding of time will adjust accordingly. If anything, I would say our current time span is highly convenient. It’s long enough for humans to achieve ground-breaking discoveries, while not so long that social and political changes stagnates.

Jacobsen: What is love to you?

Dørum: A rare and deep emotional connection with another person. Usually a form of completion and with the desire to form a partnership. It’s a part of our emotional spectre. Some people rarely feel love, and some may never have truly experienced it.

Footnotes

[1] Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway.

[2] Individual Publication Date: July 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2)[Online]. July 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, July 22). Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, July. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (July 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): July. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Olav Hoel Dørum on Philosophies, Love, Life, and Meaning: Former Ombudsman, Mensa Norway (2)[Internet]. (2022, July 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dorum-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-15

Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,755

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) is the Founder & President of God’s Power Society & The Chosen One High IQ Society and the author of the Mystery Intelligence Test. He discusses: Ph.D. at MIT; doctoral research question; the findings in the doctoral research; be like “Iron Man”; astrology, horoscopes; a “Meteor Hunter” and “IMCA #3268”; BB and ‘Crackberry’; patents; white-hat hacking; Karate; a genius; “smart is the New Sexy”; high-I.Q. societies; Tokyo; move to Japan; studying and researching at MIT; Japanese academics; the Chinese educational system, the American educational system, and the Japanese educational system; amplify the signal of the electrons; technological advancement use; an image showing full visual bandwidth to the user; God; the word of God; INTJ; Iron Man; Nikola Tesla, Howard Hughes, or Elon Musk; the next invention; and the vector of alteration.

Keywords: educational system, electrons, Fengzhi Wu, God’s Power, intelligence, INTJ, night vision, Tokyo.

Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*Updated June 16, 2022: “Dr.” removed as the Ph.D. is incomplete, according to Wu.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Why pursue a Ph.D. at MIT over other institutions?

Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值)[1],[2]*: If I hadn’t been accepted to MIT, I would have pursued my Ph.D. at the University of Tokyo (Just kidding) because I knew I would be offered. As the interviewer said, I deserve it. But yes, I admire the rigor of Japanese academics, so I came to Japan as my initial study abroad choice. I learned a lot in Japan, but I wanted to explore other areas of the world outside of Asia.

Jacobsen: What was the doctoral research question or research questions for you?

Wu: The traditional micro-light night vision device uses the image intensifier to convert the weak light into electrons. And then amplify the signal represented by these electrons thousands of times. Eventually, it hit the electrons on the fluorescent screen like the old TV to form the image.

The subject of my research is to hit the electron stream on a special low-light CMOS after the amplification. Then, the high-speed analog-digital circuit converts the electron stream into a digital signal. And eventually, using noise reduction and other algorithms by the central processor to form a full-color, high-resolution picture. The final image is the same apparent effect regardless of day and night.

Jacobsen: What were the findings in the doctoral research?

Wu: I can proudly say that the problematic parts of the above topics were all conquered, and a new micro-light night vision device will change the world.

Jacobsen: Do you strive to be like “Iron Man”? Isn’t the Marvel character based on Elon Musk or something?

Wu: God created the world, but someone designed it, and that’s the INTJ. They are thoroughly farsighted and stray from the organization. That’s why people like INTJ are also called designers. Whether the universe is designed or not is another story. Still, in this world, INTJs always take on the role of innovation and revolution. They provide the theoretical support for the functioning of the world, whether it’s Nikola Tesla, Howard Hughes, Elon Musk, or me in the future.

So, as you asked if I was trying hard to be Iron Man, my answer is a definite yes. And I know I’m going to be the next Iron Man. I do know it.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in astrology, horoscopes, and so on? You list a sign as Libra.

Wu: Yes, and I’m happy being a Libra. The laws of the universe relate to the numbers 3, 6, and 9, while I was born on the 30th of September. And I find it interesting that the more powerful a person is, the less he behaves like his sun sign. Otherwise, he can completely overcome the shortcomings present in his sun sign.

Jacobsen: I need help on these two. What are a “Meteor Hunter” and “IMCA #3268”?

Wu: Meteor Hunter is to hunt meteorites, as a very cool profession. The treasure hunter is someone who looks for the treasure left in the world. The meteorite hunter looks for meteorites that have fallen to the earth and have been observed.

IMCA stands for The International Meteorite Collectors Association, the world’s most professional association for collecting and identifying meteorites. Just as there is a GIA association of diamonds, IMCA represents the authority of meteorites. 3268 is my IMCA number. IMCA currently has 424 expert panel members worldwide.

Jacobsen: Why choose BB and ‘Crackberry’ over another device?

Wu: Blackberry was my first mobile phone, a very handsome device in my junior high school days. It was a pure device that felt great to type on and was very protective of privacy. My goal used to be the CEO of Blackberry. Blackberry has slowly retired from the stage of history, and it seems that there will be no release of a new phone. Still, it has accompanied me throughout my entire youth. It has given me many insights into business competition and life.

Jacobsen: You design, invent, and, in turn, hold patents. What have you designed?

Wu: Well, I have designed and improved a lot of things, including steamers, knives and forks, fruit plates in the kitchen, tables, chairs, children’s cars, toys, umbrellas, professional instruments and equipment, forklifts, various robots, electric picks, precision instruments for experiments, etc. I have won hundreds of design awards at domestic and international, including the iF Design Award, Reddot Product Design Award, A’ Design Award, European Product Design Award, Spark International Design Award, Genis International Design Award, LITEON Award, DFL International Design Award, DNA Paris Design Award, IDC Award, TEDA Cup Award, BIEAF Award, Goldreed Industrial Design Award. GBA Award, SSR Award, YDSJ Design Award, TAIHU Award, ICVA Award, ADCJ Award, GBDO Award, IAA Award, Golden Crown Award and so on.

Jacobsen: What have you invented?

Wu: As follows.

Jacobsen: What are the patents held by you?

Wu: Underwater salvage robot，

Automatic ultrasonic flaw detection and coupling agent spray cleaning equipment，
A kind of air cleaning unit for intelligent buildings，
One type of intelligent building that sound insulation and noise reduction effect is good，
A kind of fixed-wing uncrewed plane auxiliary takeoff apparatus，
A kind of Household floor-sweeping machine device people with anti-collision，
One type of high-accuracy mechanical arm of convenient operation，
A sort of CCD camera of cranial nerve cell Calcium imaging，
Mechanical triggering power assisting device，
A kind of sweeping robot with a warning function，
Multifunctional umbrella renting and commodity selling all-in-one machine based on the Internet of things，
A kind of Sewage treatment reuse means intelligent building，
A kind of dishwasher with water-saving function for large hotels，
A kind of intelligent building that sound insulation and noise reduction effect are good，
A heat dissipation power distribution cabinet with anti-soaking function，
A kind of cleaning equipment based on experimental equipment，
A type of connecting terminal of electrical equipment，

An electronic lock with facial recognition function for easy installation,
One type of Portable sweeper device people，
Microgrid grid-connected and off-grid smooth switching current and voltage phase compensation method，
A method to analyze the reliability of distribution network operation based on the four-dimensional index system，
The rotor shaft adjustment mechanism and the uncrewed plane of multi-rotor uncrewed aerial vehicle，
A kind of spliced water channel，
One type of computer host box pedestal，
The gearbox of wind driven generator，
One type of force value counts the mouse Mechanical Pain stimulation detection device of a display……

Jacobsen: What makes white-hat hacking “white-hat” rather than black-hat?

Wu: It is the same reason as choosing to be a superhero instead of a villain.

Jacobsen: Any specialization within Karate for the black belt?

Wu: The black belt represents the beginning of karate’s “Dao” or “Way”.

Jacobsen: Do you consider yourself a genius?

Wu: Of course, I am. I knew from a young age that I was a genius. (I’m a straightforward person who doesn’t like the way that someone lives the life of a whore and expects a monument to the chastity)

Jacobsen: You have a quote listed, which states, “Smart is the New Sexy.” How did smart become the newest form of sexy, though simply a tagline? The Americans with the Kardashians may disagree. They don’t necessarily pay as much attention to Prof. Edward Witten, but may pay attention to Sheldon Cooper or a fictional character. Although, only a moderate amount as far as I can tell.

Wu: I think smart has always been an expression of sexy. There is a term called “Sapiosexual. ” For me, sexy has never been defined. People are always attracted to what they appreciate or instinctively. I don’t like to see people show off, but if someone who is indeed awesome is showing off, I feel cool with that. For example, after learning about Nikola Tesla’s patents on electricity, I consider him very sexy, even if I haven’t met him. His intelligence formed an attraction to me that is strong enough to ignore his looks, age, and physique as external image features.

Jacobsen: You have joined a number of high-I.Q. societies: “Shenghan Club ITTP Society & DBC Society, Nano Society, Silent House, Silver Hawk High IQ Club, Power Lion, Obelisk, Elegant Attic, SpaceTime Society, SuperNova Society, Misty Pavilion, Hidden Position Society, Secret Society, Dark Pavilion Society, TC Society, Hide The Word High IQ Association, Meditator high IQ society, SYRUP Society, Music Genius Society, The ENIGMA Society…” Which ones are the most interesting or unique to you?

Wu: I’m writing this in the order I joined. In terms of names, I like Nano the most because I’m obsessed with physics and Occultism. In terms of chatting, I have met some great people and made friends in Catholiq, Shenghan DBC Society, Silent House, Silver Hawk High IQ Club, and so on. Each one has its characteristics and is different from each other. Of course, I also have some insights about high IQ societies, so I also created my high IQ society ——-God’s Power Society.

Jacobsen: What makes Tokyo such a fascinating place to you?

Wu: First, Tokyo is the world’s largest and most populous city, with the world’s highest GDP. It has the largest metropolitan area in the world. Tokyo has no clear city center because Shinjuku, Shibuya, Ginza, and Ikebukuro can all be called city centers. They all have extremely high population densities and are unforgettable prosperous. If you stay in Tokyo for just a day or two as a tourist, you cannot get to know the city.

Secondly, Japan is a country that combines classical and modern, and it is also the first oriental country to westernize by absorbing the best cultures from all over the world. Tokyo epitomizes Japanese culture. In Tokyo, you can see business people dressed in suits and traditional women in kimonos.

Third, Japan is dedicated to creating the comfort and convenience of life. For example, the train seats are comfortable and automatically heated, without feeling cold in winter. Each public restroom is equipped with free toilet paper. There are convenience stores and vending machines just a few meters away.

Fourth, Tokyo is not only a bustling city but also a beautiful tourist destination. Much beautiful scenery, such as Kamakura, Hakone, and Fuji Mountain. Moreover, Tokyo is in the Tokyo Bay of the Kanto Plain, which is considered a beach city, and you can take a train to Tokyo Bay to see the night view. Even with the population density of such a large city, the ocean in Tokyo Bay is still so blue, which shocks me a lot.

Such a flourishing, lively, modern and beautiful, no fakes, no queue jumping, bowing, and respect is the norm, thoughtful service city; who would not like it.

Jacobsen: When did you move to Japan?

Wu: About seven years ago.

Jacobsen: How Was studying and researching at MIT?

Wu: It’s exhausted but happy.

Jacobsen: What makes Japanese academics so rigorous?

Wu: The Japanese people’s rigor is not only in their academics but is engraved in their bones and reflected in all aspects of their lives.

Jacobsen: How would you compared the Chinese educational system, the American educational system, and the Japanese educational system?

Wu: This question is a bit broad. In my opinion, education in China is more about grades; in Japan, the ability to work together, and in the US, creativity (in terms of admissions). The Chinese college students, as I know them are worried about exams and papers; likewise, they work harder on their studies. Most of my Japanese classmates don’t pursue a master’s degree. They are offered by the companies early in their junior year. According to my observation, they study less seriously than the Chinese, and there is no explicit requirement of EI or SCI for graduation. Collaborative experiments and writing papers are the regular patterns. American students have the most daring ideas and hands-on ability but pay the highest tuition fees. Of course, it is not difficult to get a scholarship as long as you are not exceptionally playful. In terms of scholarships directly proportional to tuition fees, China has the least amount of scholarships, Japan is the second, and the US has the most.

Jacobsen: How do you amplify the signal of the electrons several thousand times in the night vision?

Wu: Are you asking about the traditional micro-light night vision device? It uses an image intensifier to convert the weak light into electrons and then amplify the signal represented by these electrons thousands of times through an intermediate discharge circuit as required to get the needed signal. Finally, like the CRT TV, the fluorescent screen is bombarded by a stream of electrons and emits a spot of light corresponding to the brightness and color to form an image.

Jacobsen: How might this, or is this, technological advancement used now? Is it commercial, military, or another use?

Wu: Our technology is essentially a new algorithm for image formation, and night vision is just the most representative carrier. So it’s like, although all named TVs, like CRT TVs and LCD TVs, they are essentially totally different things. It’s not easy to predict where will apply this technology. Still, I think the military will first apply it in the military. Our initial purpose is not for an armament upgrade. But if it is available for commercial use, it will also be applied to the military.

Jacobsen: Is the final result an image showing full visual bandwidth to the user, whether in the daytime or the night-time?

Wu: Yes, it is no longer like the infrared thermal night vision because it is based on image algorithms instead of light imaging. If it’s not for real-time data transmission back but just for observation, it doesn’t even need network coverage. It can theoretically handle all harsh environments as long as its battery works.

Jacobsen: How did God create the world?

Wu: That’s a good question. I believe in the existence of a Creator, but I don’t believe he has a specific appearance.

Jacobsen: Who created God?

Wu: Personally speaking, Man created the word of God. But he definitely exists, in some form or force, I think.

Jacobsen: How might an INTJ design a world?

Wu: INTJ’s inner monologue is like that the world is a product. The way the product should be is right there. But it looks nowadays that there are problems everywhere, and it is up to me to solve them all. If I can’t do it well, I’ll do it again. If I persevere, I’ll be able to do it eventually.

Jacobsen: What does Iron Man represent to you – other than “theoretical support for the functioning of the world”?

Wu: Talk about this movie. I would watch it whenever I was sad. So far, I have watched it no less than dozens of times. Of course, I have a different feeling every time I watch this movie. He makes me understand what is the most important and what is called “the man who has everything but nothing.” He helped me find a determined goal and the ideal in my life. And I have been trying to move toward my ideal since the first movie in 2008 until now.

Jacobsen: Why so confident in becoming Nikola Tesla, Howard Hughes, or Elon Musk, in the future?

Wu: I think every successful man has a set of reasons to convince himself. No matter how much people laugh at you or make fun of you, you can convince yourself to keep going. My reasons are because I see the same traits in them as I do in myself. Like, INTJ, paranoia, perfectionism, and there is never a word for giving up in the dictionary of life unless I die.

Jacobsen: What will be the next invention from you, Dr. Iron Man?

Wu: A new kind of indoor lighting component. (Nearly perfect natural light and won’t cost you a penny in electricity after installation)

Jacobsen: One can state, “I will change the world. I will be the next Iron Man,” etc. The next question becomes, “How?” What will be the direction of change, the vector of alteration, of the world by you?

Wu: Everyone is changing the world with any small thing that they can do. My idea of changing the world is to improve people’s existing lives by designing and producing more functional, more convenient, and environmentally friendly products for them. Making money solves current problems, while having money makes it even easier to solve the issues and solve more.

Footnotes

[1] Founder & President, God’s Power Society & The Chosen One High IQ Society; Author, Mystery Intelligence Test; Member, Nano Society; Member, EsoterIQ Society; member, 6G High IQ Society; Giga Society 190 (formerly United Giga Society); Member, The Core IQ Society; The POINT Society; Member, NOUS High IQ Society; Member, Sidis Society; Member, Relic Society (遗迹).

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 15). Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Fengzhi Wu (邬冯值) on Tokyo, MIT, Technology, INTJ, God, and Iron Man: Founder & President, God’s Power (1)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/wu-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-15

The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,550

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Kathy Asseiro’s biography on Symatree Farm’s website states: “Kathy is an Advanced Equine Assisted Learning (EAL) facilitator and the Program Director for Symatree Farm. A lifelong respect for horses, combined with a strong belief in the value of experiential learning and an intense desire to help others, naturally led her to EAL. From operating heavy equipment, to earning a couple of university degrees, partnering in a three-generation family business, and achieving certification as an elementary Montessori teacher, she now draws upon her training, skills and experiences to head up the programs at Symatree Farm. Whether she’s facilitating a session, tending the herd, working on curriculum design, greasing farm machinery, or swinging a hammer, it all comes together in fulfilling her dream… bringing horses and people together.” She discusses: horses; Symatree; youth, teens, and adults; Advanced Equine Assisted Learning (EAL) facilitator; issues come with horses; people; coordination with Dr. Kelly Penner Hutton; main things horses tell; partnership between Piece of Mind and Symatree; the majority of clientele; the bigs, the mids, and the littles; and Sarah Guillemard – Minister of Mental Health and Community Wellness and Uzoma Asagwara.

Keywords: Advanced Equine Assisted Learning, Kathy Asseiro, Program Director, Sarah Guillemard, Symatree Farm, Uzoma Asagwara.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, today, we are here with Kathy of Symatree Farm. We will be talking about your background and then have a little bit of an introduction of the work of intrigue. Yourself, how did you get involved in horses, in ponies, in equestrianism in general?

Kathy Asseiro[1],[2]: So, this is going to be one of those stories to when I was 4-years-old! [Laughing]

Jacobsen: Every story! [Laughing]

Asseiro: It wasn’t there, except for a few generations back on a home. I was 4-years-old being asked by my dad. He’d go on a business trip. I’d ask for a pony. I wouldn’t get it. Fast forward 40 or so years, I have 1, 2, 3, and then 22. [Laughing] Also, the other side of it, I remember being 6-years-old and being really, really driven to do what I could to have people be joyful. I wanted people to be joyful and happy. Life choices and circumstances took me to the point where the horses and bringing the joy converged. I was able to get the property. Things fell in to place. With a little bit of work, this is what we now have today.

Jacobsen: Why decide to create Symatree in the first place? Because it’s one of those industries that is plural. So, you can do a lot of things with it. A lot of people in popular culture will know dressage. They’ll call it, ‘Horses dancing.’ There’s show jumping. They’ll know it as horses jumping over rails. Yet, why focus on gathering the types of horses and ponies that you do? Why focus on mental health and things on that nature?

Asseiro: I’ve got to say, “It is where my heart has always been.” So many people who I run into over the years, they have needed something. There wasn’t something always there for them. The rescues that we have brought in. They have so much heart and so much personality. They are deserving of a second, third, or fourth chance. Same with the people. I was wired to do whatever I can to help people find the place of joy in themselves. Then they can go on and be the best version of themselves.

Jacobsen: A lot of Canadian society, or, maybe, more, at least, has been focusing on the phrase “mental health” and its varying concepts and implications, particularly around young or the veterans or LGBTI communities. Who are individuals – youth, teens, and adults – coming to you, to work with your team?

Asseiro: It’s right across the board. Our team, we have a lead facilitator who is in charge of the youth programming. We have a lead facilitator in charge of team programming. I am in charge of the adult programming, which is something beginning to be developed in a unique way. We have taken the COVID years to transition a bit. We were working with a local school division. They would send 100 or so children a year. We’ve been an approved provider for Child & Family Services.

So, the children that we see are on the spectrum, have ADHD, etc. They have all these letters. We don’t focus on the letters. We focus on who the child is. Our youth facilitator is phenomenal. There is a lot of angst in kids nowadays. She loves to work with those because she sees beyond the angst. She sees what is behind it, which is fear or sadness. It is this remarkable human being doing the best that they can do with the horses to bring that out.

A lot of those behaviours that they were exhibiting before simply fall away. For teens, it is about identity. Who they are? Who they want to be? We will do overnight workshops with them as well. It is a ot of fun. We design to be fun. Nobody wants to do heavy work, especially teens. There is enough of that already. With the adults, I call them the phoenix.; The person who has been knocked down. The flame has not been extinguished. They still have a dream.

They are still seeking. They don’t know which way to look. Those are the adults that I like to work with. If the person is looking to better themselves in some way, we are open to working with them.

Jacobsen: You Advanced Equine Assisted Learning (EAL) facilitator. What is an EAL facilitator?

Asseiro: So, my training was done at Cartier Equine in Saskatchewan. They were one of the first, maybe the first, approved by Equine Canada to do this type of training. It was about 12or 13 years ago now, when I got the training. So, we would be equine experts. We understand horses really, really well. We create programming either one-on-one, to address specific needs, or groups, to gather and think. This age group, these are the typical challenges faced by them.” It will be a program based in a story that is imaginative and playful.

They are characters within th story. As they interact with the horses, they build their emotional vocabulary, learn to collaborate, how to problem solve, how to use common sense, how to make decisions. All these things that they struggle with in real life. As a facilitator, we are taught how to take that programming. For the delivery of the programming, it is not like teaching, where we are the ones with the answers. Facilitating is different, it is creating the environment with having the experience and the child, teen, or adult engaging in the experience, and finding their own answers.

Our horses are so used to all kinds of different energies and behaviours. So, if a person behaves in a particular way, and if the horse is uncomfortable with it, the horse will leave., They are allowed to do that. The person will look to us. We tend to look away at that point. You will find your own best answer. We trust everybody here that they will find that. They go back and try again. Then they find the success is theirs. Facilitators set the experience and letting it play out, but making it safe. We have never had an issue with that. The prime role of the facilitator is to let the person have their experience, learn what they need to from that.

After that experience, we give a place for them to be aware of what just happened. They may think, “I took a horse over a barrel or under a curtain.” We help them see their gifts in having that happen and how they can carry that into the world outside of the arena.

Jacobsen: What issues come with horses who may have been malnourished, may have forms of physical or mental trauma? How do you work with horses that may have those kind of issues in a herd.

Asseiro: So, the herd is the magical part of it. We keep between 3 and 4 herds. Horses have hierarchies, naturally, out in the wild. They have hierarchies here. We don’t want to put them all together in one. We have natural herd bosses and natural herd mares. We make sure the composition of our herds is healthy. If a horse is creating trouble in a herd or having a hard time settling in, we will pull them from that herd and into another herd, shifting them until they are as comfortable as they can be.

When we first bring a horse in, there is a good chance it will have some challenges and difficulties. We brought in a 4-year-old, our youngest. His hooves hadn’t been trimmed in 4 years, probably. Maybe, he’d seen a farrier once. The front feet weren’t too bad. The back feet were terrible, really, really long. We have an outstanding farrier. She put the nippers to it, super carefully. She showed the worst. The bad feet had abscessed. We kept him in the stall for 7 months. Every second day, his feet would be soaked in Epsom salts. We would pack them with powder. We would have the farrier out every 2 weeks to trim them and working away at it. After 7 months, we got permission to put him into the herd. That’s what we did. \When you put a new horse into the herd, they will get chased a bit.

We put him into the herd, made sure that he had a separate pile of hay. We knew the herd would push him away. We made sure that he knew the hierarchy and knew his place. We will keep them separated for as long as we need to get them well. The best we can do to get them well mental and emotional wellbeing is to get them into a balanced herd. We wouldn’t take in 5 at a time and stick them in one herd. It is overwhelming for the herd. We take, maybe 2, at a time, and get them to that point. With this little guy, we put him into the herd. His presence in that herd created some angst within the herd. Some of the other horses, like Sawyer, were really unhappy. A couple of the mares were joining up with the little guy. The three of them were being belligerent.

I pulled this tiny out. I put him in with the bigs because the big herd is so well balanced. So, he spent probably a month and a half or two with the big herd. They really helped him because horses understand horses. We can understand them to a degree, but our communication is not as subtle or immediate. So, the big guys helped him to learn how to be a good friend. Now, he is back out. We are doing special treatment for his feet. He will go out into a new herd and will settle in really well. The first thing for the mental and emotional health is to get them into a healthy herd and let the horses help them with that.

Depending on how much their trust or respect has been shattered when they came, it will determine how long they stay in the herd without human interaction. We are in the herd interacting with them every day. So, the new horse will see us interacting with all of the others. They start to see how the others are trusting us, and helps the new horse understand that this person is different other people who I have been with before. Some times, in some cases, it cane take years before a horse is healed enough to let even us comfortably approach.

Spartacus is one of those. One of the most damaged we’ve ever received. His trust was absolutely shattered. Now, he is absolutely golden. He is such a good mentor for people. If you ave a child with ADHD with the big energy, then he will leave. A child almost has the horse as a barometer. We don’t have to do anything. They do it themselves. The child learns they can rate their energy up or down because they so badly want to get to that horse. So, it is pure magic.

Jacobsen: How attuned are horses, ponies, and so on, to people?

Asseiro: My goodness, it would be hard to describe it in words, I guess. I’ve got a number of clients who I am working with now. The client will be interacting with the horse, even walking. The horse is on loose lead line walking beside the person. All of the sudden, the horse will drop back and start creating a bit of tension in the lead line or the horse will push/move into the person I’ve got one horse that will speed up a little bit, turn 90 degrees, and stop in front of the person, creating a road black. This is with more adult people. I will ask the clients, “What happened in you right there?”

They will say, “I was questioning myself. Thinking you don’t think I’m good enough.” Their old stories come up. Every time their stories come up. The horse would walk in front of them and cut them off. I am 200 feet away. I have no idea what is going on, except I see the horse change. They walk mores stiffly. Something changes in them. I mention this to the person. They start to watch the horse. Now, they are walking along, a horse cuts them off or walks back. The horse reminds them. “You can do what you want to do, but I am aware. I noticed a shift in you and am aware.” It is remarkable.

Jacobsen: How is the coordination with Dr. Kelly Penner Hutton of Peace of Mind?

Asseiro: I have been working with her for about 6 years now. She comes out 1 day a week bringing her clients, who are children, teens, adults, as well. We have done a couple of group sessions together for nurses and that sort of thing. When she is in the arena, she is the mental health expert. I am the equine expert. We will be collaborating completely and allowing the person to interact. She will move in to processing something if it is a complex trauma. Or she will do her EMDR. She is phenomenal at it. She will help them with the coping skills on the psychological end of things. I will be on the equine end of things setting up the activities and the experiences.

Also, I will identify when the horse is telling us something.

Jacobsen: What are the main things horses tell you?

Asseiro: One of the biggest things is if a person is not being congruent. If their inside and outside aren’t matching, then the horse will be really uncomfortable with that. If they are out of their body, too much out of their head, starting to replay old scripts and stories, then the horse allows us to know it. I’m sure you’ve heard of the Heart Math Institute.

Jacobsen: No, I have not.

Asseiro: They have done a lot of research on the electromagnetic field of the heart and of horses. They talk about the field put out by the heart of the horse, where the field of the heart is much stronger than the brain. They have small brains and big hearts compared to us, who have big brains and small hearts compared to the size of out bodies. Our electromagnetic field will extend about a foot and a half or two feet, so they figure, from our body. I don’t recall. It may 10 to 30 to 40 feet for a horse’s EMF being detected. So, when a person is standing in a herd of horses, if they come in agitated, then the horses are generally okay with that.

What will happen, the person’s rhythm will just start to fall into a relaxed rhythm being around the horses because the horse’s modulates the human’s. Even if they aren’t doing that much around the horses, they will begin to experience that relaxation. What they tell us, if they lay down and roll, they will only do that if they are comfortable. Although, a client may feel angsty. The horse isn’t worried about that energy. We will always know from the horse’s behaviour if the horse is feeling comfortable or uncomfortable. I was working with the 13-year-old a few years back who was having issues with emotional regulation.

She wanted to get up to Spartacus. She walked up to him. He leaves. She looks back at me. She had some struggles. Every time, she had a “no” from a teacher. She would have a temper tantrum and would walk off. Because he was giving her a “no.” I asked, “Are you feeling comfortable or uncomfortable inside?” She said, “Uncomfortable.” I said, “Breathe in, until at a comfortable spot, see if you can relax it a bit.” She did. I said, “Go ahead, try again.” I have no idea what Spartacus is going to do, if he is going to stay or leave. She felt more comfortable. He allowed he to come up because, for him, you have to work a bit to get to him. So, he was letting her and me know. Something is about her that is not as uncomfortable as before. As soon as she sorted it out, he allowed her to approach.

Jacobsen: How did you form this partnership between Piece of Mind and Symatree?

Asseiro: It was interesting. A woman just joined our team two weeks before. She is such a go-getter, Barb. She is on our website. She asked me, “Would you mind if I started calling?” At that point, we were working child divisions and individuals. She asked me if I minded if she just did cold calling. I said, “Yes, go ahead.” [Laughing] I didn’t think much would come of it. Dr. Kelly was one of the calls. Dr. Kelly was one of the only ones interesting. She came. It has been a great 6-year growing relationship. Being at the right place at the right time.

Jacobsen: Would you say the majority of clientele are youth, teen, or adults?

Asseiro: The majority are children, still. We are looking to build the teen and adult more. We, naturally, fell into the youth because we were working with the schools and Child & Family Services. Children and through CFS some teens. That had been the focus for the first 9 years. It was natural for a lot of these children to be coming. When 2020 hit, and things slowed down a bit, it gave reason to pause. “Where do we want to go with this rather than simply taking any calls? Where is the passion focused?” Through that time, our team was growing. After we picked up a person who loves working with teens and youth, it freed me up.

I have been developing an adult program, always based on imagination and play and finding that in wisdom. Because a lot of the kids coming to us. They have said, “I don’t want to be involved in talk therapy. I don’t want to talk to anybody.” Why don’t they want to focus on problems that aren’t theirs anyway?” So, at this point, youth is still the dominant one. Adults would be second. Teens would be third.

Jacobsen: Which of the bigs, the mids, and the littles, are more popular?

Asseiro: I really couldn’t say because it depend son the person who comes. If they feel a fit… there is always one horse. Her name is Kitani. She is a good little pony. We always joke. She would not be the first one I would go to, but a lot of kids really, really love her. I can think about every single one of our horses having a fan in somebody or in a group of somebodies. Again, people who are more extroverted are going to like the more rambunctious horses. The introverts will like the quiet horses. Those task-oriented will take the serious horses, just wants to get the job done. For those playful people, the horse that will let them put on clothes and paint them. They will be happy with that.

It is more about the person than the horse in that case. People tend to like the bigs once used tom the smalls because it feels like more of a challenge for them. Yet, it is great to have the smalls, when working with as many children as we do. Proportionately, a pony is a good size for an 8-year-old compared to a quarter horse or something.

Jacobsen: How did the Sarah Guillemard – Minister of Mental Health and Community Wellness and Uzoma Asagwara find Spartucus, Sawyer, and Kiwi?

Asseiro: [Laughing] Everything is pre- and post-COVID. I am thinking 3 or 4 years ago. Her people reached out to us as part of equine facilities because she had put forth the bill for service and animal day. So, we were invited down to the legislative buildings three years ago to participate in this day. Of course, we went down. They contacted us again this past year to see if we could bring some horses down. We said, “Absolutely, we love bringing our horses to people.” We chose Spartacus because he had never been to the city because. We knew he was ready. Kiwi and Sawyer were the others that we took. They were on a television show too. They are pretty resilient, very smart and very experienced.

So, the three of them came together. Then Uzoma came up towards the end, said they never really touched a horse before. I said, “Here’s your opportunity!” They came up and gave Spartacus a pat. It was getting towards the end of the time when trying to get everyone inside to see the police service dog there as well. So, I just said to them, “Are you ready for a challenge?” I love bringing people to those growth edges. I said, “Here is Spartacus, take him on the lead line.” The smile was remarkable and off they went. I stayed close by in case anything. But there was nothing to worry about at all.

Spartacus was content and Uzoma was a natural – really good calm energy, helped him feel amazing.

Footnotes

[1] Advanced Equine Assisted Learning (EAL) Facilitator and Program Director, Symatree Farm.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)[Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 15). The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 10: Kathy Asseiro on Symatree Farm (1)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/kathy-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-06-15

The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,280

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Leann (Pitman) Manuel’s bio states: “Leann was as good as born on a horse, and has been fortunate to work with them daily since her very early twenties. From Pony Club and 4H as a child, through national level competition and several World’s Show qualifications with her Quarter Horse as a teen, to some Dressage tests, a few Cowboy Challenge clinics, and the daily operations at Riding 4 Life today, Leann’s horsemanship practice continues to seek out anything and everything she may be able to learn or experience with horses. Leann is passionate about helping others realize the value of having horses in their lives – no matter the breed or creed – and she hopes to continue to grow and nurture the horsemanship community in her region well into the future.” She discusses: the individual level of standards; experiential knowledge transfer; a standard teaching regimen; and issues.

Keywords: Equine Canada, Keremeos, Leann Manuel, Penticton, Riding 4 Life.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This raises questions about standards. This would, probably, be an analysis at two levels: 1) organizational, 2) individual. So, let’s start with the one that’s probably more straightforward, the individual level of standards. How do you embody the standards for the company to make individuals within it, or coming to it, align with it, inasmuch as possible? Also, what are those values?

Leann (Pitman) Manuel[1],[2]: So, I’ve listed values on my website. They’re words. Things like “Community,” “Inclusion,” “Leadership.” I’m looking for those words that will satisfy the world out there [Laughing]. Hopefully, it will orient them to my way of doing things. My standard is: I am open to anything. But if you’re going to bring me something that isn’t what we do, you should show its benefit and cost to us. We go from there. I’m open to explaining to people if there is a very certain way that I want everyone to put the bridals on the horses. It is a fairly complex procedure. It seems like overkill to a lot of people.

Until, they spend a half of an hour with me. Then I explain all the whys. Same with mounting a horse. I am very particular about how you use the mounting block, how you approach, how you ask your horse to come pick you up, how you stand, and how you get on. Because it is never about just putting the bridal on. It is never about just mounting up. It is horsemanship, warm-up, orienting your horse, a safety check. It is a really complex thing. The most important thing horsemanship-wise, I want all my clients to do is to assess themselves and their horse correctly. “At my skill level, is it safe for me to get on the horse like this?”

I’ve done certifications with the Certified Horsemanship Association or Equine Canada, have been in Pony Club, and all of these different organizations. They have different protocols for different reasons. I find them all lacking because none of them can address that piece. “How do you know if you as an individual have the skillset to handle the horse in front of you?” There is the thin slice again. All the things that can’t necessarily be put into words.

So, what I end up doing with my clients is asking, “How do you feel? What is your nervous system saying to you?” That is really important. I have teens, for example, who are incredibly skilled. I would hand them all kinds of fire-breathing dragon horses. If they don’t believe that they can, that means that they can’t. Because they don’t believe that they have the skill, yet. As soon as I put the lead rope in that teen’s hands, their nervous system will be activated. They will be in fight-flight-freeze. It will not be good. It is hard to put into words.

My husband asked me this. I met him. He was a novice horseman. His mom had horses. He rode a pony as a kid. He hadn’t owned horses since. We were dating. He asked, “How involved do you want me to get into your horse habit?”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Manuel: We were dating. He realizes this is pretty serious. It would be nice if I start competing again, etc., and some big deal thing; and you’re there to support me. He is a musician. When COVID hit, his whole world collapsed. Now, he is working full-time here. [Laughing] So, how involved are you, honey? He came from novice to a competent beginner instructor. He is especially good at ground work because he has been riding alongside me doing my thing.

He said the other day, “You always joke about when you’re connecting with teenagers and how the adults are talking, and the adult sound like, ‘Womp, womp, wah, wah, wah.’ I’m still in that stage. All these people are talking, talking, talking. I’m not listening to them. I’m watching where they’re at emotionally, their behaviour. Because behaviour is communication. Behaviour in this horseman world is much more meaningful as far as I am concerned.” So, I am teaching these young people, unfortunately, to ignore their elders sometimes [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Manuel: To get a good sense where they’re at and where their horse is at, horses are pretty safe over, under, around them, when they are relaxed, calm, at ease, even blind spots, spook spots, danger zones, are only dangerous if a horse is elevated. The same is true of humans. If I can give that skillset to people, then I am pretty sure I am giving them the skillset that doesn’t show up in a lot of books or a lot of standards that they can practice in a lot of ways. I tend to not care if they are not holding the reins exactly right, or if the equipment is mis-matched with an English bridal and a Western saddle, or vice versa. I don’t really care [Laughing].

Are they safe? Are they having fun? Are they able to pursue whatever the next question is? I am good with that.

Jacobsen: This experiential knowledge transfer is non-standardized in a way. How could it be standardized?

Manuel: Right?

Jacobsen: The thin line between the verbal and the non-verbal. In journalism, the verbal is everything when integrated with the non-verbal, but the presentation of the verbal is everything. In the equine industry, a greenhorn, myself, or an experienced person, yourself the non-verbal is everything, and the verbal, couldn’t care less, by the sounds of it. Same time, it raises questions to the other portion of that question, originally, outside of the individual into the organizational. So, Equine Canada was mentioned. There are federations, societies, associations, provincially and otherwise, in the country, or international with FEI, to try to set a standard, to attempt to set a standard. I have heard mixed opinions about these organizations.

Manuel: Yes.

Jacobsen: What are the efforts to make a standard teaching regimen, so everyone, at least, has an acceptable minimum when training?

Manuel: Yikes. I’m going to ask you. I’ve been working on this problem as long as I have had the formalized business because, as soon as you formalize business, then you have to contend with public perception, personal standards (and why), communication with the outer world (because there is a world beyond my herd), insurance (a massive one) and how do we do that. I argue all the time with insurance brokers every year when I have to pay that bill.

Yes, this isn’t anywhere as dangerous as they purport because of the experience, because of my approach. They don’t deal with it that way. They quote all this data and evidence. I say, “Yes…. No.” [Laughing] I challenge the evidence because there is no comparison between overseeing Riding 4 Life and someone who bought a horse, who they can manage to catch, saddle up, and ride. Who invites their friend to get on it, they end up in the E.R.

These are different things altogether. As far as insurance companies gather their data, they don’t distinguish between the two. Immediately, I have a problem with the data because those people will not purchase business insurance. I do. I don’t want to suffer for their mistakes. That’s one example of the organizational issues facing us. The other one, I talk about it, when it comes up. We compare the horse industry to other industries. Like healthcare, healthcare says it’s evidence-based. It has a leg to stand on because it doesn’t select data democratically.

There is scientific method behind it. There is a whole lot of education behind what data, how that data is collected, how that data is used. There are a lot of checks and balances. I have yet to find an organization in the equine industry on this planet based on postsecondary education who meets this criterion of evidence-based. These are all member driven organizations. There are very few criteria that you have to meet to be a member. In most cases, you don’t have to own a horse or prove that you’ve ridden one ever. You just purchased the membership.

Jacobsen: It seems like a massive gap.

Manuel: My father-in-law, he takes pictures. He says, “You guys are doing great and goes home.” He could purchase a membership. Now, he is a voting member. So, right there, stop, guys! These membership driven associations produce a standard, a watered-standard, unspecific standard that those who are exercising their franchise in that organization can’t agree on, by simple majority. I’m like, “This is not adequate.” I don’t have a better answer at this point.

There are a whole bunch of cultural and historical things leading us to this place. Healthcare in the Western world has grown and improved for the – let’s say – last 100 years. It is the best technology, best practice, professionalism, education, and standardization. Our government is involved in it. The notion of peer-reviewed, where there are folks who hold PhDs holding others accountable.

When I was a teenager coming up, there was a woman who ran a large ranch who sat on the committee for the curriculum and standards for Equine Canada’s Western program. The advice given to me by my mom, when I was 10, 11, 12, 13, was: If you go there, don’t tie your horse to anything, don’t let it drink out of the water troughs, there were practices happening there. Even my amateur experienced horse owning mom knew, she didn’t want our horses exposed to it. This is a person who was at the forefront in the ‘80s and ‘90s developing the standardized Western curriculum for Equine Canada. So, yes, there are big problems. How do you vet those people?

Jacobsen: This is the divisiveness (positives and negatives) in conversation on the record and off the record coming my way, even in the earliest portions of this series.

Manuel: What? I am not alone?

Jacobsen: [Laughing] It is extremely common.

Manuel: We cannot change the problem if we don’t correctly identify it first.

Jacobsen: People want change. Then there are differential issues. So, not organizational, but survivability, so, you have a growing business. Others have a stale business, which is pretty good. It’s stable. Others have declining businesses. Others have closing businesses. It could be weather issues. It could be hyper-rural problems. It could be rising land prices. It could be agricultural land reserve bylaws or restrictions that apply to farms and stables, and ranches, and so on, which create issues particular to that geography, then impacting the business. For Riding 4 Life, what issues are coming up for you, in Penticton?

Manuel: Land, the cost of real estate, land use availability, proximity of it to my target market.

Jacobsen: How far are clients travelling to you?

Manuel: To me, I operate on the Penticton Indian Band. The channel running through the Penticton River. One side of the channel is City of Penticton. The other side is Penticton Indian Band land. I could almost throw a rock and hit City of Penticton land. I couldn’t be more ideally located. The trouble is, I just paid board to a larger facility. So, I operate on Green Mountain Equestrian Centre. There are probably 50 horses set up at peak.

It is not well set up for that at all. There are no resources, no help, no community planning on our side or acknowledging us. We are surrounding by industrial stuff. We are under the flight path of the airport. There’s B.C. Hydro stuff coming through the property. We are really faking it until we make it here. The only win is our location to a fairly large urban population for the only facility located in Penticton that is accessible to beginners. So, land is a problem. I could probably lease some acreage in Keremeos.

That’s 45 minutes away. Most of my clientele, their families cannot cope with that big of a drive time to get to their weekly session. I probably lose half of my target market. Would I survive? Yes, I could pick up different clients. I would be resourceful. I would be okay. It is not my passion. Also, it is not the biggest need that I see. I want to get more people into this industry because I recognize that it is a quickly shrinking industry.

It is not for lack of people wanting to get in. Horse people are horrible for advocating for themselves in the wider world. We really are. There is not a lot of political will or are not a lot of political agencies who know what to do with us. We are not really on the radar screen. Here’s the other question, which you have probably already run into, “Are we part of the agricultural industry or the recreational industry? What are we?”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Manuel: This whole business of trying to figure out what guidelines to follow. Are we an essential service because half of my clients are accessing me for therapeutic services? Now, Sport B.C. was the one I ended up following because they are the only ones returning my call [Laughing]. “Yes, we think you are with us, but nobody knows for sure.” Even boarders who own the horses weren’t allowed to go on the property and see their horses under COVID lockdown for a month or two, part of the change there needs to be people who are in the horse industry down to one hobby horse.

We are not well-organized that way and need to advocate for ourselves in some organized fashion. Far be it from me to figure out how to do that.

Footnotes

[1] Instructor & Founder, Riding 4 Life Equine Enterprises.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3)[Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 15). The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 9: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Issues in the Industry (3)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-3.

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2022-06-15

Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 8,703

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Scott Durgin is a Member of the Giga Society. He discusses: Roman Catholics; non-Roman Catholic Christians; Christian theology; the most prominent family origin; “observant” as a youth; science fiction; Ray Bradbury; Arthur Clarke; Isaac Asimov; Ray Bradbury; social ineptitude; outdoor activities; music; drifting of friends every year; social deficits until high school; “IEEE, SBE, ASME, Pi-Mu-Epsilon”; General Studies in an AA program; the appeal of Engineering Physics; the single hardest puzzle; problems remain unsolved; “Vitruvius, Al-Hazen, Mozart, Maxwell, Feynman and daVinci”; the mark of genius; digging graves; a bank proof operator; the shift hours as a security guard; RF engineer position; teacher of physics; a marketing and sales manager; engineering manager and business manager; an engineering consultant; Founder and President; mix of humour, polymath, and paradox; science; and the hardest high-range test.

Keywords: Giga Society, Roman Catholicism, science fiction, Scott Durgin.

Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Why consider the Roman Catholics authoritarian Christians?

Scott Durgin[1],[2]*: First off anything I say here and below is not to be taken as absolute truth but rather what I have learned. I’ll be more expository, less terse than last time. An advanced education does not primarily bestow an expertise in a particular subject, this is not the most important thing, which is rather HOW TO LEARN. One who achieves a masters degree has mastered the art of learning. And one with a doctorate is truly a doctor of LEARNING. Their field of study may be economics, world history, fine art, geo-politics, physics, philosophy or whatever. But that is secondary to the fact that what one has truly done with an education is learn how to learn. Most people without this don’t know, typically lack critical thinking skills and rely on others for knowledge. This doesn’t have to be true though. A great starter kit is the book by Sagan: The Demon Haunted World.

Regarding the Roman Catholic Church (RCC) or the Holy See, my focus is always the small hierarchy, not the priests or laity: The Holy See has been brutally and ignorantly authoritarian for 1000 years+ and they will continue to be authoritarian, and love/prefer authoritarian governments over all others. The reason why they love authoritarian countries (true monarchies, dictatorships, etc) is because it is very easy to control laws and people in a country by simply attempting to control one man. This is why they loved Hitler, this is why they liked even Stalin (despite having few inroads), Mussolini, Franco, Perron, etc; this is why they like any authoritarian. It is not about whether that country is Catholic, Christian, Orthodox, Muslim, other non-Christian, atheist or whatever. What matters is in a democratic country with a people owned government the RCC has an extraordinarily difficult time enforcing their ideology on everybody else. The creation of the United States has slowed down the aspirations of the RCC (again, leaders only) causing them to be much more patient in their goal of global Christianity. (Took them decades to finally infiltrate SCOTUS and now they are getting aggressive). It is much easier to take one dictator out and replace him with another dictator to eventually gain control of a country. This occurred countless times throughout Europe for 500 years until the United States finally shut that notion down (if gradually). Very simple. After Luther, England got it started though, making Queen Elizabeth a political hero while a monarch. The Jesuits loathed her with visceral hatred.

Jacobsen: Conversely, why consider non-Roman Catholic Christians anti-authoritarian?

Durgin: The original definition of protestant is a PROTEST against the pretended temporal authority of the Roman Catholic Church. Little to do with theology. So Protestant by definition is anti-authoritarian. Or used to be. One’s conscience dictates, not the church. One’s civil life is sovereign, untouchable by the church. PERIOD. Freedom is absolute, separation of Church and State is absolute, as Kennedy said. Unfortunately today in the United States very few Protestants remember this; they are just as interested now in developing an authoritarian (and religiously based) government as the Catholics used to be. They would love to send the country back 100’s of years or more into the dark ages. These dominionists are waiting for a political Jesus Savior, apparently oblivious to the fact it would be Hitler all over again, and the RCC (their theological “enemy”) would benefit most. A publicly owned government stops them though, and they cry “tyranny” when not allowed to act like tyrants themselves. Here’s the 1948 version of ridiculous RCC contempt for USA principles of liberty: “The Roman Catholic Church, convinced, through its divine prerogatives, of being the only true church, must demand the right to freedom for herself alone, because such a right can only be possessed by truth, never by error. As to other religions, the church will require that by legitimate means they shall not be allowed to propagate false doctrine. Consequently, in a state where the majority of the people are Catholic, the church will require that legal existence be denied to error, and that if religious minorities actually exist, they shall have only a de facto existence without opportunity to spread their beliefs….” -from the Civilta Cattolica.

There are many in America today (some “protestants” no less) who still harbor such thoughts, mostly religious and mostly in the Republican Party. Trump supporters want to return to 1950. But that kind of intolerance needs to be literally stamped out; with a boot. Sorry, not sorry.

Jacobsen: What parts of the Christian theology appealed to the European heritage if known?

Durgin: My father’s mother recalled she was a descendent of the Huguenots in France. My fathers great grandfather was a preacher, and 12 generations back were pilgrims. Study the Huguenots: St Bartholomew’s day 1572, Edict of Nantes and it’s revocation, etc. you’ll see why there is the appeal. They were basically the philosophical descendants of the Cathars, and other proto-protestants who sometimes worked passively, sometimes actively to expose the enemy of the human race that is the Holy See. As far as the specific theological heritage of the family I am not aware of any, despite having two or three preachers in the background. Two of my ancestors are William Brewster (who was the spiritual head of the pilgrims on the Mayflower) and also Robert Cushman who supposedly delivered the first sermon in the New World in November 1621. My immediate family however was not theological at all; we did not treat any lessons from scripture or from church to be anything other than practical and moral, otherwise loosely based on the guide that is Old Testament and New Testament scripture. Learning Greek and Hebrew eventually solidified a largely non-religious outlook for me.

Jacobsen: Is France, the U.K., or Germany, the most prominent family origin?

Durgin: Depends on how far back we go. If the 8th-10th centuries, it’s fairly evenly distributed but for the past 400 years or so the primary origin was UK. There’s a link to 12th century Fulk V of Jerusalem (from Anjou) and Henry II through the bastard sons of Richard, too.

Jacobsen: What do you mean by “observant” as a youth? What memories exemplify this self-assessment?

Durgin: Before 10 years old, I watched others interact, make mistakes and succeed. Purpose was to learn, sometimes to avoid catastrophe and also to succeed myself. One example of avoiding catastrophe was watching a boy run after a runaway bouncing soccer ball and leap over it attempting to stop it with his grounded heel; he didn’t leap far enough, landed most temporarily on the ball and nearly broke his ankle, not to mention his head; lots of pain. Watching boys fight was also instructive, disappointing and depressing. Other than that, generally speaking I was deeply observant of the physical world as well. Watching a basketball in the distance bounce, listening to the sounds occur out of sequence from what I could clearly see, fascinated me and made me realize that the speed of sound must be slow, same thing with lightning preceding thunder. I wondered about ways to see how fast light actually was but failed to get anywhere experimentally until high school; then great strides at university.

Jacobsen: Why was science fiction the main interest for you?

Durgin: Science fiction evoked imaginative thought in a practical, non magical way; caught my attention when I was young. I stopped reading fiction by 18 or 19 because so-called history/nonfiction is much more interesting if one studies deeply enough. Unimaginable things are possible with the schemes of men. What is not forbidden is mandatory.

Jacobsen: What stood out about Ray Bradbury?

Durgin: Bradbury was appealing; very colorful and descriptively imaginative, this broadened my English language knowledge: reception and perception but not yet expression. Many dreams were fantastical probably because of Ray Bradbury’s work. I began to appreciate dense storytelling which minimized number of words. Short stories; giving the same experience to the reader in much less time relative to a 500 page uber-wordy novel with way too much character development. Admirable. Only a few authors were capable though. Appreciation increased as I aged. Time is MOST precious; finding a way to expand time is worth more than tons of gold treasure. Arthur C. Clarke was the master of masters despite being poor at descriptive storytelling involving human interrelations, especially females. Did not notice this or care about it when I was a teenager. By far his book with the most profound effect on me was Childhoods End. Over the top psychological mind bender for its time. I did not understand half of what I was reading because the concepts were above my head. But I kept reading and re-reading and I probably read that book 10 times over the subsequent 10 years and it still presented as one of the most elegantly written and compelling stories ranging over an epic timescale while bridging psychology, religion and science. I still buy copies and give them away. Asimov and Heinlein really didn’t stand out so much per se, but they each had their own skills. Because of Asimov’s skill in presenting very short essays on a wide range of different topics I graduated very quickly from fiction to his nonfiction, which was helpful to a boy who was mildly interested in electricity, chemistry, astronomy and physics. Heinlein just tried too hard. Levi and P.K.Dick were better writers. Lovecraft even better. I read a few Heinlein stories and liked them but the moreI read the more I realized his stories were puzzles; they were more interesting as a puzzle …so both authors Asimov and Heinlein provided me with small stepping stones to help me graduate from “learning to read” toward problem-solving (reading to learn): learning facts quickly and solving puzzles. As and adult, I was introduced to Borges, and everything stopped, changed; LURCHED forward. Borges combined everything interesting into 15-20 page erudite labyrinthine masterpieces. Brilliant writing. I should qualify this with the fact that mostly James Irby and Donald Yates translated him to English, so they deserve much credit here.

Jacobsen: What stood out about Arthur Clarke?

Durgin: See above, and tersely: combination of scientific accuracy with imaginative and creative storytelling.

Jacobsen: What stood out about Isaac Asimov?

Durgin: see above. His short non-fiction essays were instrumental. I now have near 1500 books and texts in my small library. Have read and studied them all, many of them multiple times; all non-fiction. More than 100 are grad level physics texts and monographs.

Jacobsen: What stood out about Ray Bradbury?

Durgin: Writing as art, as if Van Gogh in another life.

Jacobsen: Any examples of the social ineptitude of young life?

Durgin: Ages 10-13 no ability to express myself verbally; blank stare when asked to explain what I just read, or give a book report. Girls liked me but I couldn’t respond unless one on one. Group activities I would freeze up. I did not learn colloquial language quickly. The language I learned came from books, so was much more interesting and in-depth than the nonsense communication occurring verbally between the other children (and even adults) around me. What I mean by nonsense are the “local” languages – dialects, innuendo, misused words, sound byte speed and idiosyncrasies. Most of the time people expected rapid response (still do) and while I can do that now very well, when a child my thoughtfulness took time, so communicating verbally was slow. This stopped a lot of conversations cold because I didn’t “get things” rapidly. Nonsense insubstantial symbolism and innuendo were no use to me. Real symbolism and deep communication appealed to me, starting about 14-15 years old. This was probably the beginning of my fascination with RARETIES. I just now recall one friend and I developed a language wherein we annunciated English words backwards (early high school); of course this sounded like gibberish to everyone with an ear, but we knew what we were saying by translating in our heads every backwards word, but phonetically off. For instance the word spider was pronounced “Reedips” while the word time was “eemit” both with emphasis on first syllable. A verbal code remotely akin but opposite to the “green language” (langue-verte, language of the birds) of the French, unknown to us youngsters of course, but much less sophisticated. I also sucked at acting, debate team and other social communication ruses for the same reason. I preferred chess: one on one. The ability to manipulate and persuade others into changing their minds is typically not based on fact, reason or rationality, but instead emotion; the ability to TEMPORARILY win an argument or debate by being clever or distracting – maneuvering around the conversation – was not interesting to me, so I initially failed at it, especially verbally. Chess is apt example: one does not win by sneaking a good move your opponent doesn’t see. One instead forces your observant opponent to make his/her best move a losing one. Both should know what the best move is. That’s the kind of engagement I wanted. I was interested in permanent knowledge (which is rare). This served as pre-preparation for becoming a scientist and an engineer I suppose. Effective communication is not rapid, but takes thought, effort and time. An engineering drawing contains a library of information and a great many logical processes, manufacturing limitations that are mathematically coded, dimensionally coded, etc. are inherent, which can only be understood by those trained to read them. It would take many pages of standard verbal phrases to explain what is on ONE page of an engineering drawing. What is otherwise written down is therefore OFFICIAL, and can be read and studied over and over again so that the reader can grow in order to understand it. But a verbal conversation is often over before it’s over; a conversation can never be repeated; it’s never the same twice. Emotions change rapidly. “Dammit I had something for this!” days Archer.

Jacobsen: What kind of outdoor activities took up youngster Durgin’s time?

Durgin: Winter time skiing and sledding and trekking through the woods. Camping. Throwing inanimate objects at cars and each other. Snow soccer was also fun I remember that from 8-9-10 years old. Climbing trees and attempting to leap out, grasping the top of a limb and letting go at the right time to drop to the ground. Hardly ever worked. In summer any number of things depending on what age I was: neighborhood baseball, basketball and football I often played on a daily basis. I preferred baseball over the others because it was not timed. Beating the clock or beating your opponent because of the clock is a temporary win, not a real one; Illusory rather than substantial. One summer I experimented with rockets, another with foolishly shooting arrows straight up and then feeling angst. My father carved his own hunting bows, so I could launch arrows upward beyond eyesight. Quite possibly my favorite outdoor pastimes were cycling, hiking and digging for old bottles. I would bike 100 miles through the hilly New England countryside at 14 years old. Started racing at 16. Also hiking through thick woods randomly getting lost just for the purpose of finding my way out again. Not smart after dark. In doing so I was able to come across many old burial grounds (where antiques and housewares rather than dead bodies were buried). I would find old bottles or cans, tools, things like that, learning that old glass bottles were certain treasure. Digging deeper than others became my desired activity, this is so important in every field, really. Early American glass bottles were attractive because: all one-of-a-kind handmade; to find one still fully intact by digging 3 to 4 feet underground in a particularly remote wooded area was an amazing un-duplicatable experience. Glass is easily damaged; very rare to find a whole bottle. Early American whiskey bottles, medicine bottles and masonic flasks were my focus; rare treasures I could find, especially if looked deep. I have found throughout my life one difference between me and most others: I am the one who apparently focuses, obsesses and digs the deepest; this goes for literal digging in the ground, archaeology and other similar activities but also metaphorically digging into history and literature, psychology and religion or consciousness. Once one digs deeply enough in their own religion they see it is Myth. My current favorite text is The Mythical Origin of the Egyptian Temple (by Eve Reymond), which brilliantly explores myth as origin. It’s very disappointing to see current archaeology lingering in a state of lasting ignorance about our history due to simply not digging deeply enough. In addition, no serious archaeologist or anthropologist appears to be willing to learn astronomy, necessary in order to understand prior cultures. Fear of Math is most irrational.

Jacobsen: What music did you like?

Durgin: Eclectic interests which only deepened with time. Orchestral rock, classical jazz; music which contained an inherent depth and uber-strength of effort was what I gravitated to, even at 13-14 years old. The best examples of this are Pink Floyd, Led Zeppelin, Yes, Rush, also classical baroque like Mozart. Later on I gravitated toward angelic instrumental blends. Was enthralled with Enya. Then David Arkenstone; Deuter was especially contemplative and relaxing. The soundtracks to the games Riven and Exile were fantastic; thus my interests evolved to more moody, atmospheric and mind expanding pieces. These helped my brain not spend too much time in turbid maelstroms of fugue-like expeditions and vortices. Deuter’s work and Enya’s enchantments truly felt healing. One memorable record was Echoes of Egypt by David & Diane Arkenstone, which reminds me of Echoes by Pink Floyd Live at Pompeii, amazing piece.

Jacobsen: Did you become used to loss with the drifting of friends every year or few as a young person?

Durgin: Yes, didn’t consider it a loss, just kept going and kept growing. My desire for mental and philosophical growth eventually separated me from others every few years. I’ve learned not to blame others. No one else dares to go very deep, even into their own interests. I believe this to be psychological and seems to have a relationship to fear of what is deeply located in every human being’s psyche. A psychological barrier then. Conquering deep-set fear became a staple for me, but not at first. At 7 or 8 I overcame my crippling fear of the ominously dark occasionally rumbling cellar; entering a dark cold cave was next. Unimaginably horrific creatures lurked there of course. Fear of heights took a little longer; did all this alone. Fear of the unknown was a strong pull, and I learned early how to dream what I intended, so was able to experiment mentally. Terrified me at times…the mind is the worst horror.

Jacobsen: Though alone, often, due to social deficits until high school, did you feel alone? The common divider between being alone, but not necessarily a feeling of lonely comes to mind for you – just an intuition.

Durgin: Accurate….Never felt alone, probably never will unless something changes chemically. Thoreau and Frost come to mind. Pretty women became my focus later on, these treasures can be truly deep mysteries. Like the Zohar. I feel the entire universe is my playground; my field of exploration where so many things are waiting for me to explore, interact with and discover. I feel connected to the entire world (even the stars) probably because I WILL MYSELF to be connected. It worked back then, still works now. My next 500 years could be dedicated to continued exploration should I live that long. Discovery is not possible without exploration. Sideways discovery is often more satisfying. My home is located in a wooded sanctuary (forest bordering me on 3 sides) and serves as a mental sanctuary. A geometric labyrinthine necropolis is not far away. If I am eventually buried there at the southwestern apex of a 72 foot stone triangle, resting deeply below a cold running stream, I feel like I will live forever.

Jacobsen: Can you, please, unpack those for me, “IEEE, SBE, ASME, Pi-Mu-Epsilon”? Regis, I’d like to use a lifeline.

Durgin: Easy to look up, globally known. The first three are Engineering Societies: electrical, broadcast communication and mechanical respectively. Pi mu epsilon is an honors math society. All great resources. I’ve used the transactions of each in my research as an engineer, countless times.

Jacobsen: Why General Studies in an AA program?

Durgin: The degree was automatic because I had already spent four years of school at three different Universities while studying psychology and history as a matter of course (in addition to physics and engineering) so I took the associate degree first.

Jacobsen: What was the appeal of Engineering Physics for the BS?

Durgin: Before University, I was highly interested in understanding the physical world; the laws nature followed fascinated me. In high school physics I did well without expecting to, but that’s partly because I actually spent the time attempting to learn it. I was interested. The fact that nature obeys mathematical laws is a very powerful, useful and fascinating notion. The very pinnacle of this notion is encapsulated in Noether’s theorem, which I did not fully learn or appreciate until decades after the degrees. This theorem ties together Relativity, Electrodynamics and quantum field theory by way of the principle of least action, gauge invariance and the conservation laws. Astoundingly important but a bit beyond what undergrads typically absorb. One very hard lesson I learned while earning my degree in science was that such labor and research requires multiple sources in order to understand even the most basic concepts. You cannot just study one textbook to learn electrodynamics or thermal physics. One must read and study at least five or six textbooks in every subject to get it. When I say study I mean you read every page in a textbook over and over again at different times in different weeks and in different months. And then you go through the exercises on paper with pencil; you draw pictures, you experiment with different equations and different relationships. You cross-correlate. So it actually takes years of overlapping study and practice in order to understand what it is you’re doing. Engineering Physics was an undergraduate program that was somewhat elitist and only for those apparently who can survive a very rigorous study program; nearly killed me. Engineering itself was bad enough, but to pursue a six year-double degree program in engineering and physics required an insane amount of effort and work for me; it actually took me more than seven. Like 160+ credits. But I loved physics and wanted to become an engineer so it was an ideal program. Superconductivity, magnetohydrodynamics, optical polarimetry, Dye Lasers, holography, these were all projects I dove into. Difficult paths produce the best learning experiences for me. I wanted to become an expert in physics because I considered it the master discipline. Additionally, one must know physics well in order to become an effective engineer, whether it’s bridge design, communications, transportation, materials, chemical or electrical. In Science education, there is no better match of complementary subjects than electrical engineering and physics. The best pairing for physics and engineering in general was/is electrical engineering, for the primary reason that nearly all familiar phenomena we experience as human beings are electromagnetic in origin. Waves. Understanding waves, whether transverse or longitudinal requires the mastery of differential equations and exponential functions, as well as complex functions, and in some cases four dimensional tensors. 95% of the important every-day measurable properties of materials are electrical. Because I was so interested in a high challenge and because I wanted to understand the way the world worked (first-hand for real without having to rely on others) I chose physics. I wanted to be that expert. I wanted to see Newton’s reasoning. I wanted to understand how Einstein forged together knowledge of electrodynamics and motion to arrive at Relativity and the non-absoluteness of time. And I knew that engineering would also bestow a relatively solid and stable financial footing in society: Practical. Engineers are indispensable and they are also the best fit for an advanced entrepreneurial career. As stated before, Engineering is the heart of problem solving: Scientific economic diplomacy.

Jacobsen: What has been the single hardest puzzle to solve out the puzzle of life for you?

Durgin: 1. Women. Glorious and fun, like cats. 2. Slowing time down, expanding it so five minutes seems like an hour; some progress here, surprisingly.

And….Lately two projects I’ve been working on for more than 15 years. One of them involves learning enough about the past in order to predict the future; this has by far been the most challenging because it requires an enormous amount of time, study, focus and retention, in addition to the other things I’m doing. It requires learning and re-learning and yet EVEN MORE relearning of the subject matter I have attacked throughout my life. Extraordinarily cerebral and physical challenge. And it has allowed me to indeed gain SOME MINUTE upper hand on ability to predict the activities of certain people and groups; in effect predicting the future. The period 2034-2041 will see a most distressing time for rational non-religious people in the West if I’ve come to correct conclusions. Studying the most influential organization in the past thousand or 1500 years provided a short circuit to understanding most of European history. Pattern recognition has been the skill I possessed since a young boy; have used it to my advantage whenever possible. With “learning about the past to predict the future” the pattern to recognize has been a combination of natural cycles and fabricated man-made events. The natural cycles are astronomical in nature (basic solar system orbital mechanics) and the man-made events have to do with the development of the calendar, coupled with the seeking of political power. My second project involves the ancient necropolis of geometric form in the middle of the woods mentioned above: not far from New England but I’ve been able to spend some time in it. An enormous amount of curiosity, fascination and subsequent satisfaction has resulted, such that this may have surpassed the first project in importance, not sure yet. Coincidentally it also involves simple geometric patterns and the astronomy based calendar. I’ve had to re-learn Euclid as a result. There have been other small problems in physics I have been working; involving the design of a prototype solar system sized (Interferometric) telescope which can directly view the earth’s past. Will take 500-1000 or so years to actually build. Need warp drive and a stable wormhole to eventually communicate data back. Physics allows it but the engineering challenge is overwhelming. I did mention humor didn’t I? At some point we need to send a group back tasked with building the moon and bringing into stable orbit a billion years ago; we’ll need to be Type II Civilization by then. Also unique problems in propulsion and transportation have been a focus of mine. The book Geometry and Light was a great find because I would have written it myself had I the skill and inclination. Ulf Leonhardt is genius and he certainly beat me to it. Communicating with my future self was a project involving self-Hypnosis combined with the art of practicing other unusual mental and psychological activities. Aside from that, I can now call to mind a third GIANT project I’ve been working for many years: simply understanding people, human nature. The best way is to spend time with them, travel, understand different languages, learn ANCIENT LONG DEAD languages, different modes of thinking, different modes of communication and different modes of living, etc. Carl Jung’s works and my strong intuition have been instrumental as guides, also many other authors focusing on mythology. So I have travelled over the past 10 years or so, using my profession as an RF & Microwave Engineer as leverage, solving difficult challenges in the world of electronic communication, mostly in the defense and aerospace markets all over the world; from Tel Aviv, Germany, other points in Europe and the United States and U.K.

Jacobsen: What will problems remain unsolved, as in mysteries without apparent graspable solutions?

Durgin: The power of the human brain in a word. If we master that as a grand society then many conflicts and world problems will resolve themselves, but this will take many hundreds of years. Removing and stamping out authoritarianism has been a big distraction for hundreds of years. That MUST be accomplished, coupled with freedom and a people-owned globally scoped government before we can get to exploring the universe and the brain in depth. Possibly the two greatest things to solve in the world today I think requires great and profound increases in the study of the brain, coupled with a correspondingly great and profound increase in the study of the universe beyond Earth. I am also interested in these things but I have not been able to spend as much time and effort with them as I would like. Not enough clones.

Jacobsen: So, this is a big list, “Plato, Euclid, Vitruvius, Confucius, Hypatia, Proclus, Roger Bacon, Al-Hazen, Dante, Those who composed the Zohar, those who composed the Hermetic philosophy, John Dee, Leonardo, Mozart, Newton, Maxwell, Goethe, Gödel, Einstein, Emmy Noether, Dirac, Feynman. My favorites in there are probably Vitruvius, Al-Hazen, Mozart, Maxwell, Feynman and daVinci.” With “Vitruvius, Al-Hazen, Mozart, Maxwell, Feynman and daVinci,” why those six, individually, and then collectively? Your thought seems individual-sequential and then collective-whole.

Durgin: Yes if one studies each of those figures, a common thread binds them, if loosely; to describe that would take a few books. Brutally brief and partial summary:

Vitruvius was a polymath, he understood the importance of blending many other disciplines and realize that a physicist (by which he meant architect) must understand all those other subjects (MASTERY) in order to be successful. Al-Hazen also was a polymath: collected knowledge from all corners, some likely from the Alexandrian library not destroyed by the Catholic Church. His interests in alchemy and physics are notable. He sought to unify knowledge… to synthesize all known forms of life and knowledge into a cohesive whole. This is an underlying theme of the people I consider genius. Atrociously, I neglected to mention Carl Jung in that list. His work is monumental, no question. Roger Bacon was amazing, The Zohar will lose you, daVinci was unstoppable, Feynman could elegantly explain post grad physics to undergrads; something Einstein couldn’t. Those who spend an enormous amount of time looking and searching, then spend an equally enormous amount of time analyzing and seeking to understand what was found, and then FURTHER spend an enormous amount of effort attempting to link everything back together into the WHOLE IT WAS IN THE FIRST PLACE, these are genius. Analysis is not the end, synthesis is. Those who see and understand that the physical universe is like a wheel with many spokes and those who search for and study the HUB are the leaders we need to follow. Dividing knowledge and history and experience into segments like the spokes on a wheel is a useful exercise, but to forget the fact they are all linked together by the hub is ignorant. So the geniuses I chose throughout history seemed to me to reflect the importance of that notion. I’ve studied all available notebooks of Leonardo; he broke the mold, fantastic individual. Manly Hall divided true philosophy into a bunch of developmentally graded concepts, each more focused than the last, each with greater scope than the last: Perception, Examination, Reflection, Knowledge, Exploration, Understanding, Discovery, Wisdom. Some of the individuals above mastered all levels it seems. Note without Freedom, many of these are impossible. Freedom is thus the superior overarching theme; the highest ideal.

Jacobsen: Why is humour the mark of genius?

Durgin: Not the only mark. Understanding how to deliver humor exudes a hint of understanding the human brain better than anything or anyone else. Subtle humor exposes a deep understanding of the learning process. This is why I consider people who have the ability to do this and who are themselves uniquely intelligent, who seek knowledge and understanding, etc. to be genius. Humor is an advanced connection.

Jacobsen: What was digging graves like for you? That’s a fascinating job.

Durgin: Solitary, somewhat interesting and on some rare occurrences, terrifying. Salem’s Lot.

Jacobsen: What the hell is a bank proof operator?

Durgin: One who processes incoming checks to a bank’s vault. Using typewriters or adding machines one must simply encode all the numbers on the check and the amount of the check. Accounting. Mostly computers do this now today.

Jacobsen: What were the shift hours as a security guard?

Durgin: Mostly daytime. I worked at a Civic Plaza/ convention center where various different conventions and forums occurred, technical, hobby, special interest, futuristic, industrial, etc.

Jacobsen: Is the RF engineer position one in which the BS degree came in handy?

Durgin: Necessary minimum. One cannot be responsible for the design of communication components in defense and aerospace industries (what the serious RF Engineer does) if one does not have a solid background in electrical engineering and physics, in addition to four or five years of practice beyond that. High power RF design engineering requires an exceptional aptitude and mathematical background in mechanical, electrical, time varying-spatial varying wave physics and thermal concepts. This over a broad range of materials science too. The design of practical RF and microwave components involves consideration and mastery of a large variety of disciplines and factors. These include electrical, architectural (like topology, materials and realizability) thermal and wave principles of resonant circuits, coupled structures and elements as well as field theory. In addition one must marshal the resources associated with manufacturing processes and engineering materials & toolsets required for fabrication and proper tolerancing…this involves machining etching, casting, forging, extrusion, welding, plastics film deposition and others. One must also fully understand cost factors Such as labor and overhead, assembly, adjustment, test, quality control etc. Effective communication is therefore critical. Engineering is problem-solving at the direct level and so an entrepreneurial spirit is necessary. If you are not using differential equations to solve these physical problems then you are not an engineer, much less an RF engineer.

Jacobsen: You would be a colourful teacher of physics. How did you approach teaching physics? Also, what levels?

Durgin: Years ago, sophomore level only. I was engaging and brought various levels of mechanical activity and fun to the classroom. I was inspired by Feynman to do this. And my own understanding of the synthesis that physics brings to understanding the world also inspired me. I wanted others to know this and learn it. Learning advanced mathematics is not that difficult because mathematics is pure logic; when applied to the physical world it provides a solid understanding of why things work the way they do, from light to magnetism to stellar formation and evolution, to biological processes and organic chemistry, to all other forms of physical interaction. The most challenging applications to learn mechanics are associated with rotary motion, the orbital motion of planets, gyroscopes, gravitational fields and forces. The Foucault pendulum is remarkably elegant. I set up small and large apparatus in the room. One of my favorites was a solar collector set up as a curved mirror, which could spontaneously burn anything placed at its focal point when the mirror collected basic sunlight. Wood plastic etc. just by pointing at the sun. Painting things black accelerated the effect. I threw things around the room, hung stuffed animals in one corner and had an air gun that fired tennis balls at them from the other corner. We dropped things from third story windows, rotated bicycle wheels and carried them around the room to experience torque, Used lasers to develop the concept of relativity, etc. I had a great experience in college at one University as well, we had a lab that produced holograms using lasers, and a machine shop where we were tasked with designing and creating industrial hand tools like C-Clamps, slotted microwave lines, etc. U Maine and Arizona State were great experiences.

Jacobsen: Where were you a marketing and sales manager?

Durgin: After the first decade I worked for two US electronic component manufacturers over 20 years time, managing product and accounts world-wide, the first company in Rhode Island with about $10M annually, the second company about $100M annually located in Florida, NY and SC. Both times serving Defense, aerospace, industrial, optical communication industries. Products were RF, microwave, millimeter wave components primarily.

Jacobsen: Were the engineering manager and business manager roles, in any way, associated with one another – other than through you working them?

Durgin: Not at first, the business manager was for my ex-wife’s private school she founded. When I was running the books for that, I was working as RF engineer designing high power TV transmitter equipment and had a third job teaching college physics.

Jacobsen: Where were you an engineering consultant? What does an engineering consultant do? (Please, for the love of anybody’s God, don’t say, “Consults on engineering.” Unless, you want eye-rolls from high-IQ society members who happen upon this interview.)

Durgin: Best is by way of a short example. Over the past 20 years I cultivated and developed hundreds of business contacts. I have also developed my own skills in design, manufacturing, test and development of electronic components and equipment for the communication industry – primarily operating at RF and microwave and millimeter wave frequencies. I now entertain projects for certain customers, and a typical transaction is a phone call or a face-to-face conversation facilitated by my travel to a company like Northrup Grumman or Lockheed or BAE or Boeing or Raytheon. I would meet three or four engineers or project engineers and managers in a room and they would ask me questions regarding a problem or challenge they have with one of their systems. Like “We have radar transmitter functioning at 14Ghz with a 1-5% bandwidth that generates harmonics whose energy is too high (thus interfering with other communication systems); can you design a 20 Watt 14 GHz low pass filter in microstrip transmission line form that suppresses the second and third harmonic below 40-50dB and keep passband insertion loss below 1dB?” I then must assess the manufacturability of such a product, but I cannot always do this without spending some time researching how large and what materials and what architecture with which to build the product. Many other issues typically come up, mostly to do with manufacturability, cost and time. The customer and I then must negotiate price, quantities over the next 2 to 3 years etc. Great variability occurs from customer to customer, from project to project and from product to product; but my job is to solve all these types of problems as a consulting engineer. Sometimes it involves bringing in other experts. Sometimes the project occurs only once: customer doesn’t call me again….sometimes they call me again six months later with a second project. If I’m lucky I get a short or long term contract and work with them every month on a number of projects. Occasionally on the first time around enough information can be gleaned from the nature of the problem that the customer completely changes their mind about the direction. Perhaps some of their engineers could actually design it and farm it out to a familiar manufacturer. It’s really no different than any other forum where a salesman or builder architect attempts to sell something to somebody who can use the product or skill. One difference is that in my world the business people I work with are not only engineers but RF engineers, likely doing design work or business for years prior. And further this exposes the fact I learned long ago that no matter how much experience a businessman might have there is no way he will never learn enough about the engineering process on the job….one must have the degree. The other side of that coin is any degreed engineer, advanced or not…..that engineer can learn business on the job just by doing business, one doesn’t need to go to college to get a business degree. Much more difficult or impossible to teach a businessman engineering skills outside of university, but very easy to teach an engineer business skills outside of college.

Jacobsen: Founder and President, what business or enterprise?

Durgin: D.E.E., My consulting business as RF/Microwave design engineer.

Jacobsen: What is this mix of humour, polymath, and paradox, for a genius? Are geniuses, in some sense, paradoxes in the form of a living Hegelian dialectic blossoming as “Synthesis”?

Durgin: Not sure I can explain that in less than a year, but it takes an extraordinary amount of effort to work on a great paradox, often leading to unexpected discoveries and illuminations. Only hard word produces valuable discovery. If one is not already a genius one certainly can become a genius just by doing this. Being a polymath really helps because working on two or three or five separate projects not directly related to one another allows the brain to rest on one project but also unconsciously work on the others. Helmholtz discussed this. Just study all of the work the physicists were doing at the end of the 19th century and see how Einstein put together a great many known conflicts and paradoxes to then work for nearly 20 years before he came up with the brilliant theory to explain it all. Electromagnetism led to Relativity. But he also worked on other things, inspecting patents for work, but publishing 4 papers in one year (1905) on different subjects. Kinetic motion of atoms, the photoelectric effect, electrodynamics and the energy content of matter. That’s genius. Electrodynamics was first synthesized by Maxwell 30 years earlier, but Einstein used those conclusions to discover that Relativity also dictated the rules of Electromagnetism. It turns out that relativity essentially dictates the rules of all physics, even physics not yet discovered. Monumental, without question. Depending on how willing the individual is to step outside of one’s philosophical and experiential comfort zone the paradox may or may not be solved but a lot of other problems never considered could be. In my view a genius must walk in the shoes of more than just a few others in order to truly understand the world and to understand oneself. One must master the current scientific state of the art. This means constantly reassessing the knowledge one has gained and constantly seeking MORE knowledge in order to reassess all that prior knowledge. This is similar to building a pyramid, it’s an extraordinary amount of work in the beginning. Once one nears the top the work becomes easier and easier…..affecting much more with less effort, except if one finds imperfections in the bottom layers (invariably one WILL and I have) one cannot simply go down there and adjust it….one must completely disassemble the pyramid and build it again. This seems disheartening at first but doing it causes one one’s knowledge too deepen very rapidly. I would consider anyone willing to do that and stay sane is at least partly genius. And I would also consider anyone who is willing to go through with all this? At some point one must learn to be acquainted with a lot of cosmic humor. Inevitability in a nutshell. Working in the woods for three days straight pulling a 2 ton rock out of a 15 foot deep hole with two chains or three wrapped around it with the other ends wrapped around two trees….and inch by inch by inch moving the stone up and having it catch on other stones every five minutes so that a crowbar is necessary to nudge it free, eventually nearing the top of the hole on that third day to then have one chain slip off and the other chain snap due to the immense force, and the boulder bounce back down into the hole. How does that feel? What is anger? No matter how careful or patient one was, one needs humor at that point. What utter moron would want to do this?

Jacobsen: What makes science “the true and final method of finding things out; finding THE truth”?

Durgin: Cannot be answered simply or quickly. Many many books and texts have already been written addressing this question, harkening all the way back to the 13th century with Roger Bacon. To say nothing of Aristotle who started it all. The essence of why science is superior is because science changes its conclusions when more data comes in and enough overwhelming evidence arrives. Science is also a collective exercise that is self checking. A scientist must disclose all one’s resources and experimental methods so that others can perform them and see if they get the same answers/conclusions. Once a great many near identical experiments have been performed by a great many people, then mistakes are eventually eliminated, variances accounted for and the experiment gives way to accepted FACT. This makes science superior to any other method of finding the truth because it’s a collective effort, carried out by individuals. Science is ruthlessly rigorous in its approach, eliminating all but one variable in order to find the foundational physical law; Mathematics its most useful tool. Religion on the other hand never changes; its truths are asserted from the beginning and then no matter what evidentiary data comes in, those “truths” are still stubbornly clung to. This is the opposite of rationality and success. Backward in a bad way. In addition any physicist or scientist defending a hypothesis must include all forms of contradictory evidence before coming to a conclusion. Nowhere in religion or in any other irrational fact-gathering exercise is contradictory evidence used as a means of finalizing the truth. This is one of the reasons why the body of knowledge based on scientific inquiry is slow to change. The full truth may never be known, but the sure way to MOST CLOSELY APPROACH IT is through the method of Science, no question. Aside from the above, the best way to communicate my ideas about the importance of the question is to simply list some interesting ~90 books from my collection, through which I have voyaged over 25 years of study, related work and contemplation. Many of these are game changers:

#548 Relativity by Einstein

#1321 Euclids Elements

#2338 Enoch 3 by Hugo oberg

#567 Genius by James Gleick (on Feynman)

#1165 The song of Roland by D. Sayers

#1211 Nicolas Flamel by Laurinda Dixon

#1704 Isaac Newton by Gleick

———-

# 680 Electrodynamics by Melvin Schwartz

# 709 General theory of relativity by Paul Dirac

# 700 Gravitation by Misner, Thorne and Wheeler

#1113 Primer for Gauge Theory by Moriyasu

#1114 Emmy Noether’s Wonderful Theory by Dwight Neuenschwander

#1426 Mechanics by Lev Landau and Lifshitz

#1433 Variational Principles of mechanics by Cornelius Lanczos

———-

#688 Mysterium Coniunctionis by Carl Jung

#718 Psychology and Alchemy by Jung

#113 Cosmic Code by Heinz Pagels

#801 Gödel’s Proof by Newman and Nagel

#195 Gödel, Escher, Bach by Hofstadter

#741 Labyrinths by Jorge Luis Borges

#3 lost keys of freemasonry by manly hall

#6 morals and dogma by Albert pike

———-

#1209 The Zohar by Daniel Matt

#1100 Sacred Vault of Enoch by John Yarker

#752 Infinite world of MC Escher by Abradale

#701 Sacred Geometry by Robert lawlor

#730 the Bahir by Aryeh Kaplan

#642 the Iliad and the odyssey of homer

#312 Dante’s divine comedy in Italian

#315 virgils Aeneid

#909 the grail legend by Emma Jung

#1127 the grail by Loomis

#1224 the holy grail by Norma Goodrich

#703 theatrum chemicum brittanicum by ashmole

#296 serpent in the sky by John west

———-

#769 Plutarch in 5 volumes by Goodwin

#969 Themis Aurea by Michael maier

#711 Heptameron arbatel of magic by Abano

#705 Greek myths by Robert graves

#217 Demon haunted world by Carl Sagan

#402 Uriels machine by Robert lomas

#99 Holy blood holy grail by Baigent Lincoln and Leigh

#122 the abc of relativity by Bertrand Russell

#452 Wholeness and the implicate order by David Bohm

#324 Freemasonry, it’s hidden meaning by George steinmetz

#5 Secret destiny of America by manly hall

#408 Alchemy by manly hall

#294 second messiah by Knight and lomas

#512 Pythagorean sourcebook by Guthrie

#444 divine pymander by shrine of wisdom

#1083 magicians of the gods by Graham Hancock

———–

#576 Engineering and the minds eye by Eugene Ferguson

#578 thermal physics by kittel and kroemer

#887 transmission lines by Robert chipman

#610 microwave engineering by Pozar

#866 microwave measurements by Montgomery

#607 waveguide handbook by n. Markuvitz

#865 microwave transmission circuits by Ragan

#587 microwave filters, impedance matching networks and coupling structures by matthei, young and Jones

#569 lasers by Jeff Hecht

#552 invention and evolution by French

#110 physics of immortality by Frank tipler

#190 liber 777 by Crowley

——–

#1111 the comacines by ravenscroft

#1094 secrets of the Phoenicians by Sanford holst

#1095 Greek science by Sarton

#2617 new materials for the history of man by RG Haliburton

#2618 exposition of the mysteries by John Fellows

#2619 landmarks of freemasonry by George Oliver

#423 book of Enoch by Charles Laurence (transl)

#159 the temple and the lodge by baigent & Leigh

#100 messianic legacy by baigent & Leigh

#125 Duncan’s ritual

#2339 cleopatras needles by EHW Budge

———

#2137 Childhoods End by Arthur c Clarke

#788 dwellings of the philosophers by fulcanelli

#1771 parzival by wolfram von eschenbach

———

#672 mathematicall praeface by John Dee

#852 ninth century and grail by Walter stein

#330 holy grail by manly p hall

#285 Phoenician origin of the Scots Britain’s in Anglo-Saxons by Lawrence Waddell

#1069 solving Stonehenge by Anthony Johnson

#46 Evolution of civilizations by Caroll Quigley

#318 paradise lost by John Milton

#777 hermetica by Walter Scott

#1019 golden game by stanislas k. De rola

#422 tower of alchemy by David Goddard

#731 Sefer yetzirah by Aryeh Kaplan

#1357 geometrical foundation of natural structures by Robert Williams

#1098 Chartres cathedral by Louis charpentier

——–

If one studies only half of these diligently and repeatedly over 5 to 10 years your mind will be transformed in unpredictable ways. I say it’s worth it, I’ve done it repeatedly with 15 times as many books over 30 years, changing my head each time. One good book read 20 times will change a man. 10 good books read 2 or 3 times is enough to question and doubt everything. 100 good books read and re-read perhaps 6, 7 or 20 times is enough to transform one’s thinking, and further brings the realization a thousand more should be read. 1000 books is enough.

Jacobsen: What has been the hardest high-range test taken by you? Why that one?

Durgin: By far the most difficult, most elegant and the most mentally rewarding was my attempt at the Isis test by Cooijmans about 15 years ago or so. This required me to research in many different directions in order to approach the solutions. Only 5 problems total (the essence of its elegance and superiority) and it took 3 months + of my time. I was eventually able to solve four out of the five problems but I submitted the test too soon: in my excitement and eagerness I had only really partially solved the other three. It wasn’t until I submitted the test, received a score of “1” and then reviewed the test again that I realized I needed to go further. Nevertheless this did not matter to me in the end because I was quite satisfied knowing I had solved all of them or nearly all of them. In real life one does not completely solve any problem the first time around. Not even close. This never happens in engineering or physics, surgery or psychology or anywhere; one must always go back to one’s work and improve upon it. Multiple times. Development by definition is never instantaneous. Perfection never attained. The Grail is never found, never intended to be found.

Footnotes

[1] Member, Giga Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2) [Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 15). Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Scott Durgin on Roman Catholicism, Science Fiction, Humour, and Jobs: Member, Giga Society (2) [Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/durgin-2.

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2022-06-15

The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,099

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Rachael Dent-Flynn is the Owner/Lead Facilitator of Flar Equine Experience. Flar Equine Experience facilitates life skills and relationships alongside horses. Dent-Flynn’s background is having a lived experience of trauma, coming out into the LGBTQ2+ community, & PTSD from volunteer firefighting. Knowing the lack of effective affordable resources for her own mental health journey, she wanted to be able to offer a healing experience that could help someone along their journeys. She discusses: experiences and training; horsemanship in Nova Scotia; Owner and Senior Facilitator of Flar Equine Experience; tasks and responsibilities; horse industry in Nova Scotia; resources; a mental health service; facilitate life skills and relationships; anxiety, depression, PTSD, impatience, and building trusting relationships; working on the aforementioned personal difficulties; people become involved in the horse industry in Nova Scotia; equine therapy; assisting veterans; statistics on veterans in Nova Scotia; clinical research and popular feedback; narratives coming to Flar Equine Experience; meaningful narratives; and support and/or become involved in Flar Equine Experience.

Keywords: Equine Assisted Learning Facilitator, Equine Assisted Personal Development Coach, Flar Equine Experience, Nova Scotia, Rachael Dent-Flynn.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What sorts of experiences and training were part of becoming a more mature and experienced equestrian?

Rachael Dent-Flynn[1],[2]: I got certified as an Equine Assisted Learning Facilitator & Equine Assisted Personal Development Coach; however, with horses, I’m always learning & growing as new methods are presented.

Jacobsen: How prominent is horsemanship in Nova Scotia? Most of Canadian equestrianism seems centralized in British Columbia, Alberta, and Ontario.

Dent-Flynn: It’s way behind the other provinces you’ve mentioned…however for no other reason than education and awareness of the effectiveness on mental health being in the presence of horses.

Jacobsen: You are the Owner and Senior Facilitator of Flar Equine Experience. Did you create it, too?

Dent-Flynn: Yes.

Jacobsen: What are the tasks and responsibilities involved with the ownership and senior facilitation work of Flar Equine Experience?

Dent-Flynn: Absolutely everything from horse care, welfare, and maintenance to running all the programs/sessions and then all the business side of things.

Jacobsen: Flar Equine Experience is based in Hubley, NS. What is the state of the horse industry in Nova Scotia?

Dent-Flynn: It’s in need of provincial or federal recognition just like the other provinces. We have enough organizations doing it all for the right reasons, and for the best life for the horses and humans alike.

Jacobsen: What resources exist in Hubley to help with the maintenance, even growth, of Flar Equine Experience?

Dent-Flynn: Not many at all.

Jacobsen: On social media, Facebook specifically, it is listed as a mental health service. Why focus on mental health as the equine-based service of Flar Equine Experience?

Dent-Flynn: Absolutely, because now more than ever everyone needs to know the true empowering effectiveness skills you can gain from being in the presence of the horse that can then transfer into your own challenges in struggling away from the arena.

Jacobsen: You facilitate life skills and relationships at Flar Equine Experience. How is this done, in a rather unique way?

Dent-Flynn: Yes, we sure do, through objectively driven skill based structured obstacles that you & your horse will navigate through together.

Jacobsen: If we can talk about it, please, the horses have helped with your anxiety, depression, PTSD, impatience, and building trusting relationships. How do animals speak to this for you?

Dent-Flynn: They have a natural ability to have us look within in the present moments as we navigate through the obstacles in the arena. While doing so, it brings all these challenges to the forefront where I couldn’t hide or bullshit my way through it or shut down and try and avoid it. So, in those instant moments, I had to recognize what was going on with me, name it, and then navigate differently through the obstacles with the horses. When I did that, it was both successful for my own confidence of doing it with a 1,200lb animal, but it was instant validation from the horse’s willingness to be right alongside me! Holy shit, totally empowering, and for me, that was my break-awake because years of talk therapy never provided that opportunity or feeling.

Jacobsen: How have horses, particularly, helped with working on the aforementioned personal difficulties?

Dent-Flynn: The skills learned alongside in the arena while navigating through challenges with a 1200lb teacher are able to be gained in a safe, non-judgemental, healing environment….which in turn transfers into challenging situations away from the arena, where I caught myself taking a second to breath, remembering how I dealt with it in the arena, and then navigating through it differently in daily life situations to live a more positive, confident overall better life.

Jacobsen: How can people become involved in the horse industry in Nova Scotia?

Dent-Flynn: Many ways, volunteering is always amazing, can never have too many hands helping around the barn. Fundraising for local equine organizations as we aren’t funded currently, get the word out there by word of mouth and lastly is education and awareness of all the places doing phenomenal healing with horses.

Jacobsen: What is equine therapy?

Dent-Flynn: Simply, it is experiential learning providing life skills and personal development opportunities alongside horses that transfers into all other avenues of daily life.

Jacobsen: How does Flar Equine Experience apply this to assisting veterans?

Dent-Flynn: Call, email, social media or drop by!

Jacobsen: What are the statistics on veterans in Nova Scotia?

Dent-Flynn: 1,300 are war service veterans, 385,000 are Canadian Armed Forces, regular & primary veterans.

Jacobsen: What has been the clinical research and popular feedback on equine therapy from veterans coming into and out of Flar Equine Experience?

Dent-Flynn: That they have never felt so safe, not judged & that they can still be hyper vigilant, but it’s in a different more positive way & they have something to continuously look forward to.

Jacobsen: Veterans remain an interesting portion of Canada. Both honoured and venerated, though neglected and impoverished in numerous ways. We honour them with ceremonies and days of celebration. We venerate them with medals and words of affirmation. We neglect them with lack of various resources. We impoverish them with lies about honour and dignity in, in truth, having them as hired killers for the State, who have PTSD, damaged bodies and minds, and tensions on their social and familial ties in the midst of service – even after service. How do you navigate these various narratives coming to Flar Equine Experience?

Dent-Flynn: We couldn’t agree more & we love this question because we are doing everything we can at FLAR to be the “catcher” of those who feel they have been failed by everyone else. This is a common theme to this day and many times the first session conversation. However, the beauty of the horses that ends up most times in the vet becoming very emotional is that the horses can’t lie (they aren’t made up to) and they don’t judge, which instantly is overwhelmingly positive because most haven’t felt that supported directly or indirectly in many, many years.

Jacobsen: What are the more meaningful narratives of success coming out of equine therapy through Flar Equine Experience for you?

Dent-Flynn: When individuals can feel totally confident in articulating their once seen as weak challenged stories of struggles into telling their journey in hopes to help someone else not feel alone in their struggles.

Jacobsen: How can people support and/or become involved in Flar Equine Experience?

Dent-Flynn: Many ways, share all the social media things, volunteer, help fundraisers or find sponsors, help with marketing & promotions for awareness and keep the conversations going!

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Rachael.

Dent-Flynn: Thank you so much.

Footnotes

[1] Owner/Lead Facilitator, Flar Equine Experience

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience[Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 15). The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 8: Rachael Dent-Flynn on Flar Equine Experience[Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/dent-flynn.

License

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Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-15

Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.D, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 11,062

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Hindemburg Melão Jr. founded the Sigma Society and the Sigma Test. Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high-I.Q. societies. They discuss: high-level IQ; Elon Musk; a multiplanetary race; NASA and SpaceX; the next 100 years; AI; the future prospects of man; genius; and the basis of AI.

Keywords: A.I., Elon Musk, Hindemburg Melão Jr., I.Q., Leonardo da Vinci, NASA, Sigma Society, Sigma Test, SpaceX, Tor Arne Jørgensen.

Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*Updated June 17, 2022.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Can high-level IQ tests be legitimized to the same extent as professional supervised tests?

Hindemburg Melão Jr.[1]*: I think this question was partially answered in the preamble to the interview, but there are a few details I would like to add.

International Mathematical Olympiads use relatively primitive methods of assessment compared to psychometric methods, but the content of the questions is sufficiently difficult for the levels at which they are intended to assess. The types of problems are not the same as what a mathematician would need to solve, but they do share some necessary cognitive processes. Under these conditions, scores proved to be good predictors of intellectual production in the future, including for important awards such as the Fields Medal. The charts below summarize this situation:

Source: https://ramanujan.xyz/read-our-imo-research/

Psychometric tests use sophisticated standardization methods, much superior to those used in the IMO, and have good construct validity up to 2 standard deviations above the mean, and an adequate level of difficulty up to 2 standard deviations above the mean. But for higher levels the construct validity and the difficulty level are not adequate. As a result, Terman’s studies showed good predictions for academic and professional/financial production, but failed at the highest levels, even showing a negative correlation.

This suggests that while the quality of standardization is important, it is less important than the quality of items in terms of “appropriate difficulty” and “appropriate construct validity” at the levels at which it is intended to be measured.

So for the 70 to 130 range, clinical tests are actually better than hrIQts because they use larger samples and the standardization methods are generally more sophisticated. However, for scores above 130, hrIQts better meet the questions about level of difficulty and construct validity, which are apparently more important criteria for predicting remarkable results in real-world problems.

In addition, some hrIQts are standardized with higher quality than clinical tests, although this is not the most important issue, it can be a differentiator.

Tor Arne Jørgensen[2],[3]*: Not in the state of being accepted as reliable as the test base in most cases does not reach what is viewed as acceptable. Most High range tests vary from low 20 attempts to high 300-400 attempts in most cases per test, whereby the professional test is based on 6000-20000 attempts per test. Some of course have a larger test base but not many, so the outcome will not be nuanced enough to be validated as real. Furthermore, it is not a team of professional test developers with a psychological background who develop these high range tests, they are thus of debatable value to estimate.

It should be added that even amateur designed logic tests, hit quite close to the certified tests in most cases in my experience, where deviations of around 2-3 IQ points have been found regarding my own tests, and it must be said that I am not a certified phycologist by any means, but from the 400 attempts I have had on my own high range tests, then the results is quite clear as norm go…

Jacobsen: Is Elon Musk the Leonardo Da Vinci of today?

Melão Jr.: Musk is very smart and very creative, his IQ is somewhere close to 155 (σ =16) and his creativity level is perhaps equivalent to something like 180.

In Leonardo’s case, if his IQ were put on the same scale, it would be close to 250 to 260 (σ =16, T). Obviously this is only possible because the true distribution of the scores is not normal, otherwise in a historical population of 100 billion the maximum possible rarity would be 10^-11, corresponding to 207.3 (σ =16). To better understand how the determination of scores should be done, I suggest reading this article: https://www.sigmasociety.net/escalasqi

Some people are especially skilled at figuring out what questions need to be asked to solve important problems. Other people are especially skilled at finding answers. Leonardo was exceptional at both, asking the “right” questions and finding efficient and creative answers, perhaps 9 to 10 standard deviations above the mean (in a dense-tailed distribution, as noted above). Musk is very good at asking important questions (perhaps 5 standard deviations above average), but (for now) he needs his army of geniuses to find the answers Leonardo found on his own. Musk is also very good at solving problems (perhaps 3 to 4 standard deviations above average) and has a huge net worth, which boosts his production by outsourcing the work of many others.

Musk’s financial resources, he would probably have built working helicopters in the 15th century, but with animal traction (it would be unlikely to invent an engine at that stage in which the Technology was), and many other things even more extraordinary than what he did, actually did.

On the other hand, in a short time Musk “will be able” to implant computer prostheses in the brain and will surpass Leonardo. It might, but it probably won’t anytime soon, because it won’t be safe at first, it will need to be tested on monkeys, then human volunteers, etc.

Jørgensen: Comparing these two people is not easy by any means as they on both parts are quite unique in any sense, whereas they are driven by a regiment of absolutes. Your inherent qualities are what have helped to shape their outcome into the history books. Brilliant to be woad, where qualities of both the creative and logic-based intellect are above the norm as to the general population. To look at these two individuals as fortified settlers, paving the way forward for innovation and development through quantum leaps for humanity in all its rejuvenation of renewal. Intellectually, these two guys are not so different in the bare nature and their continuous strives towards future innovations, one more hopelessly lost and barred by his contemporaries regards to Leonardo Da Vinci, even more so than the later Elon Musk. Leonardo’s, in some way desperate attempt at fame and fortune trapped by the ancients’ dogmas and frigates in his heyday.

Leonardo Da Vinci an intellect of contemporary currents, intentionally shaped for the individual’s right to be recognized as real and genuine. A man whose brilliance is still increasing in his hardening, is to be regarded as Elon Musk’s superior as to both intellect and creative output. Elon Musk is brilliant in all his glory, but still he is not to be painted with the same statuettes as Leonardo. That said, only time will tell who will be viewed with the greatest influence of these two exemplified giants perceived by utopian framework conditions by and for the artistic innovation and common enrichment of utilitarianism.

Jacobsen: We can certainly see ourselves as a multiplanetary race in the near or distant future, and is that something we want to be then?

Melão Jr.: The technology necessary for terraforming planets or other astronomical objects should be achieved in a short time, perhaps it is already available, although it has not yet been applied. But the time it takes to make another star habitable depends a lot on how big the differences between that star are compared to Earth, in addition to the size of the star, the star’s evolution rate, etc. We still don’t know whether the most promising venture would be terraforming Venus, Mars or the Moon. I would bet on the Moon for the short term and Venus for the long term, but there is still not enough data to decide. Alternatives like Europa, Titan or Enceladus are very cold, perhaps this is more difficult to resolve.

No Solar System object, other than Earth, appears to be sufficiently suited for the development and/or maintenance of complex life as they are now. Perhaps extremophiles like tardigraphs can live on Mars, without the need for major changes to the planet. However, to colonize Mars with humans it would be necessary to solve some very difficult problems:

Mars’ magnetic field is very tenuous, insufficient to deflect lethal radiation. To increase the intensity of this magnetic field naturally and without needing a continuous supply that consumes energy, Mars would need a rotating metallic core of a certain size. It would be an incredibly difficult engineering process to change that and far removed from our current technology.
The atmosphere of Mars has 0.6% of the pressure of the Earth’s atmosphere and is composed of 95% CO _2, with only 2.8% nitrogen and 0.2% oxygen. Earth’s atmospheric pressure at the top of Mount Everest is about 30% of the pressure at sea level, and breathing is already very difficult at the top of Everest, with high risks of nose and ear bleeds. So it would need to increase 100 to 200 times the total mass of gases on Mars and increase 10,000 to 15,000 times the mass of oxygen. How to do this? Musk commented on the possibility of generating more gases in the atmosphere of Mars through nuclear explosions, a completely speculative hunch, to “test and see what happens”. I think it’s a reasonable guess, despite not being supported by anything concrete. Perhaps an interesting alternative to this strategy is to develop genetically edited plants to transform soil nutrients into oxygen. Simply changing CO ₂from the atmosphere to O ₂would not solve it because there is not enough CO It would need to increase the atmospheric mass a lot, in addition to the change in composition, and even then it would be complicated because as the gravitational acceleration on the surface of Mars is 0.37 times that of Earth, so if the density of the air were equal to that of Earth, the pressure would be 0.37, just slightly higher than the pressure at the top of Everest. If I increased the pressure 2.5 to 3 times to make it equal to Earth’s, then I would need to investigate the health effects of having 3x the air density.

There are several other negatives, but less serious than the first two. Mars’ orbital eccentricity is 0.0934, while Earth’s is 0.0167. As a result, the range of thermal variation on Mars is vastly greater. On Earth, the seasons of the year are predominantly determined by the inclination of the axis of rotation, but in the case of Mars the predominant factor would be the variation in the distance from the Sun, which would also be added to the variations related to the inclination of the axis. It would not be a prohibitive range of variation for life, but it would create serious problems for humans. The photos below show the variation in the size of the South polar ice cap in just 2 days. Nothing similar happens in Antarctica (not to the same extent). This sublimated ice cap material is added to the atmosphere, substantially increasing the average total pressure. Weather stations on Mars would be much more marked than on Earth, not only with much greater temperature variations, but also with changes in CO _{2 concentrations}in the air, relative humidity, etc. And it would be useless to try to “fix” this in the ice caps, because it is a process related to the temperature variations inherent to orbital motion and axial tilt.

Despite these difficult points to resolve, Mars has several positives: the length of the day is very similar to Earth’s day, so it would not require much adaptation. In the cases of the Moon and particularly Venus, day length could be a big problem. The fact that Mars’ albedo is much lower than Earth’s contributes a little to its not being so cold, even though it is 50% farther from the Sun than Earth.

Venus has a very tenuous magnetosphere as well, but this is largely due to its very low rotation speed. Accelerating its rotation would be less difficult than introducing a giant metallic core to Mars, but it would still be immeasurably difficult and would require a much higher level of propulsive energy production than we currently have. When such technology is available, connecting suitable thrusters and with sufficient fuel, this process of accelerating rotation could take a few thousand years. Solar energy itself could serve as a complementary fuel source for the thrusters. At the same time, it would be possible to drain or condense part of the atmosphere. The components of the atmosphere are not very “friendly”, but H ₂SO ₄includes H ₂and O _4, which can produce water, oxygen and ozone. The amount of nitrogen is 3 times greater than on Earth, so I would just need to figure out how to produce the proper chemical reactions. Perhaps in 10,000 to 100,000 years it will be possible to make Venus habitable, with an atmosphere similar to ours, a 24-hour day, a sufficient magnetic field. The current albedo of Venus is 0.76, while that of Earth is 0.39, so although Venus is closer to the Sun, as it absorbs less light, its temperature could be maintained at a level similar to that of Earth, at least in the regions of higher latitudes. When the atmosphere is changed, the albedo must also change, but it must be possible to reasonably control this parameter in order to leave the appropriate temperature. The length of the day time doesn’t seem to me to be an issue in itself, but modifying this would be useful for the magnetic capo reason. In the case of Mars, whose mass is 1/8 that of Venus, it might also be possible to shorten the day from 24 hours to 6 minutes, in which case perhaps Mars’ magnetic field would also reach a level suitable for deflecting harmful radiation, but it would produce many other problems, because the flattening of the planet caused by the pseudo-centrifugal force would be 250 times greater, that is, the planet would be elongated more than an egg, changing several fundamental parameters at the equator and poles, and it may not even be possible to maintain balance hydrostatic effect of an object with these dynamic characteristics, the lithosphere might rupture, or melt due to the heating caused by friction with the magma of the lower layer, the Coriolis effect would be very intense and there would be hurricanes all the time in high latitudes, not to mention the difficulty that it would be to live on a planet where the sun rises and if it could every 3 minutes, the tidal effects would also have a very short cycle etc. So, although the mass of Venus is much greater than that of Mars, it seems more plausible to me to reduce a rotation from 243 days to 1 day, as in Venus, than to reduce a rotation from 1 day to 0.004 days, as in Mars. Both would likely increase the magnetic field by increasing the rotation speed of the core, but the side effects on Mars would be catastrophic.

Anyway, these terraforming processes I believe will only serve as “experiments”, because there will be no advantage in moving to Venus, Moon or Mars. It will be important to use these astronomical objects as “laboratories” to learn how to terraform other astronomical objects, as there will be many unforeseen issues that will need to be resolved during this process, and the first attempts will be very likely to fail. Thus, for a few million years there will be an opportunity for learning, correcting errors, etc. and then apply the process to terraform some exoplanet to meet the real need to leave the Solar System before the Sun leaves the main sequence. If you were to learn how to do it only when necessary to switch to another system, and failed in the attempt, it would be disastrous. That’s why it’s important to test on neighboring planets first, although the objective is not to occupy them, per se. Although the sun is predicted to take 5 billion years to run out of its hydrogen fuel, along this process there will be several major changes in a few hundred million years, both in size and in temperature and luminosity. A 10% increase or decrease in brightness would be a very serious problem. The current model of evolution for G2-V class astronomical objects like the Sun predicts that in 1 billion years the Sun’s luminosity will be about 9% greater than today, so we won’t have several billion years to move into a star system. more stable, maybe around a red dwarf or something. It’s also debatable whether a red dwarf would be an option, because if our main energy source is starlight, with a Dyson sphere or something, maybe a red dwarf wouldn’t be able to meet our energy demand. Another problem is that the current model of evolution is based on many hypotheses that may be wrong or inaccurate. Recently, the Sun’s metallicity was found to be about 43% higher than previously thought, which has several implications for the pace of evolution and how long it will take before we need to move due to the overheating of our region. If there are other parameters revised, the 1 billion-year timeframe can be reduced to a few hundred million (or extended, if we’re lucky).

Perhaps the planets and other astronomical objects within the Solar System are used for tourism, or for the escape of some “privileged” people in case a war renders Earth uninhabitable, although it is probably less difficult to “fix” the Earth after a nuclear war than to make another planet welcoming enough. Even after a devastating nuclear war, Earth would hardly be as inhospitable as Mars, for example. If in the next decades or centuries weapons even more destructive than the current ones emerge, and if they are used, then perhaps they will be able to make Earth more uninhabitable than other planets, in which case migration would be an alternative for some. It is also important to consider that future inhabitants of the Earth may have different needs than the current ones, perhaps the brains will be preserved, but the rest of the body may be replaced by something more versatile, which can withstand higher and lower temperatures and other more hostile conditions, keeping the brain thermally insulated so that it does not suffer damage, with adequate protections also for radiation, etc. Or simply swapping the brain for a homologous structure that is more robust to adverse weather conditions.

It is also likely that “humans” will not move to just one planet, but to several, as the terraforming tests will not work every time, so we will need a reasonable sample of trials to have a good chance that at least some tests “work”. And once the new planets are available for occupation, they are likely to be occupied. It is also possible that genetic and prosthetic changes are made to make humans, animals and plants adapted to other astronomical objects, rather than just altering the astronomical objects to adapt to us. This should make the whole process faster and promote a better harmonization and integration of beings with the planets on which they will live, since some planetary and stellar parameters will probably be very difficult to adjust, such as the amount of UVB rays emitted by the star, necessary for the synthesis of vitamin D, which is currently important for our immune system, but if we happen to inhabit a planet around a red dwarf, the UVB emission will be much lower. In short, it is a question that could be written in a book about it, because it is very complex. But this is an outline of some possibilities.

Jørgensen: The future as a multiplanetary race is for me an inevitable scenario that one cannot get away from.

But it must be said to what extent we as humans would be able to look at ourselves as a human being in today’s biological sense. This with reference to some of what is being referred to by Mr Melao, about being able to adapt to the planetary conditions that you will encounter. What does one mean by this, well that we as humans are more easily served by transformation our structural set-up by order to adapt to what we may face of climatic challenges, etc., on the planet on which we visualize being able to build our new societies upon. If we as a human species are to ensure our continued existence, then it will not be in our current capsules, but in an alternate state trough adapted evolution, whereby the human biology must interphase with technological innovation, thus resulting as a preformation of a bionic entity.

This adaptation is far more realistic compared to the alternative method by way of terraforming new planets to alter the climatic environment to suite us as humans. So, to the question “do we want to be a multiplanetary species?” Yes, I believe so with all my heart, to not prevent the demise of our very existence is unfadeable to me. We as humans are still in our infancy state, our story has not been told and certainly not being lived in full yet. No, there is too much to be lost if we do not consider ourselves as preservable into this alternate state as an multiplanetary race in the future to come. We must ensure survival through conformance towards preservation of the biological galactical imprint by all cause.

What I think about our own planet becoming smaller and smaller is in the sense of feeling that the earth is becoming more and more narrower, due to the simplification of travel methods and a normalization of the fact that everyone is now in one sense or another a globetrotter, with reference to a global traveler. Hundreds of years ago, the earth was a huge place that could take several months to travel from one corner of the world to another, later it took weeks, then days, and now hours. Our planet is not big enough nor exciting enough that we are now just starting to feel the ever-growing urge to move beyond our own palatial comforts to other more worldly endeavors beyond, out there somewhere beyond the heavenly stars.

If one is to put the human existence in the following perspective:

Man, and its existence do not extend over a very long time.

Our total existence in relation to a single human being has so far reached the age of 14-15 years, in the sense that our race of homo sapiens is now as I see it in the stage of a normal teenager. In the very early stages, thousands of years ago we were pondering about the world and all its content with stat at point in time, the marvelous and confusing grandeur, we began to explore our nearby surroundings as on a par with a baby exploring his own crib. Then as time went on, we humans evolve further and forward in time to a few hundred years ago, we could explore not only our nearby areas, but also explore across borders and continents during several weeks on expeditions.

This again can be seen as a young child at the age of 7-8, who is now moving away from the safe surroundings of the house and exploring his immediate environment.

Forward in time again, to the age where we were introduced to general aviation, which meant that we could now travel anywhere in the world within days and finally hours in the present time. This can be compared to the teenagers who again travel further, beyond now on much longer journeys across national borders etc.

The meaning of this is that we are now soon ready to take the next step towards the age of majority to move out of our safe surroundings, as human urge to move further out away from our own planet towards something new and unknown. I firmly believe that we are still in an early stage of our total existence and have about three quarters and a bit again to live, in the relation to the normal human life expectancy of around eighty years+.

Jacobsen: What could be the reason why NASA did not intend to reduce rampant spending and did like SpaceX and reuse the rockets in the same way as when SpaceX does today?

Melão Jr.: I haven’t followed the evolution of this, so maybe my answer doesn’t make sense. But I think that NASA didn’t have the technology for that, nor was it interested in using part of the budget to try to develop this technology. If they used money for that and couldn’t solve the rocket reuse problem, the money would be lost. SpaceX took the gamble and it worked. After SpaceX has solved the problem and the technology is now available, NASA doesn’t have to risk the venture until it learns how to do it. Just repeat what SpaceX has already shown to work. So my guess is that maybe that’s the main reason or at least one of the reasons.

Jørgensen: The basis for NASA lack of reusability or the mere thought about it by imprudent intent, as to not make it its task to take upon this type of innovation of thereby speculative content is not yet clear to me. What is certain, is that now everyone sees what SpaceX has successfully managed, and in a shared note of what Blue Origin has also done to some degree with reference to SpaceX technology advances regarding concept of reusability and space travel. This must make NASAs executive leaders think back and grimly reconsider its previous fallacies of galloping spending costs and their taxpayer’s later mistrust in return. At one point, it seems that NASA was about to give up all hope of looking towards other planets in the faintest of possibility as to human space travel and the hope of colonizing other nearby systems.

Fortunately for us all, we are now led by Elon Musk’s brilliancy and persistency, so now the hope burns brighter the ever before, a beacon to be behold.

But back to the insane approach of the galloping costs for NASA’s space program. The US state’s belief in what one would assume to be the most competent people in the relativity of space odyssey and its particularities, must then also be governed by the most competent economists by spending such astronomical sums as NASA seizes from the US state’s budgets each year. It is conceivable that one must get a type of divine revelation of a new ingenious shooting star, with which can reignite those most impertinent innovations beyond that oneself is unable to imagine in order to rekindle that all important flame within us all.

A type of remnant of a gone by era whereby a new state of mind initiatives that only the most brilliant intellectuals can enable us to understand in a never-ending alternate state such as Elon Musk has now installed and by with which we the benefactors can thus reap the benefits of taking all those educational lessons with us for further study within the field of notation.

Jacobsen: Can we expect that in the next 100 years we humans will encounter new extraterrestrials races?

Melão Jr.: I’m assuming the question is about living extraterrestrials or that at some point were already alive (fossilized, for example) and whose ancestors are also extraterrestrials. Otherwise the answer would be easy, because if a couple of humans go to a lunar base and they have a child there, the child will be a selenite (or lunarian), or something, or a martian if it’s on a base on Mars, and that should happen in less time, of 100 years. But I imagine you would like to rule out this type of extraterrestrial. So if we’re talking about extraterrestrials whose ancestors have also been extraterrestrials for over 100 years, the probability goes down, but it’s still likely, in my opinion. Objects like Oumuamua probably pass through the Solar System frequently, but are rarely detected because there are no monitoring programs for this. When a systematic project is developed to study objects of this type, then our range in a few decades will be much greater than the current one, reaching far beyond the objects of the Solar System, not because we will be able to go to other astronomical objects in such a short time, but because we will better take advantage of opportunities to study interstellar objects that pass in our vicinity, but which are not currently being studied with due attention.

The answer to this question will also depend a lot on some semantic and etymological details, related to the classification of an organism as “living”. Our current concept of life is very limited, to the point that if we found living organisms with certain properties very different from those we know, we might not recognize them as “living”. The evolution of the concept of “life” should play an important role in this process, expanding the scope of this concept and making it more inclusive. Robots, for example, may be considered “alive” if they meet certain criteria.

In reaction to communicating with intelligent life, in projects like SETI, I think it’s less likely, because our current technology based on radio signals didn’t exist 100 years ago and should become obsolete in 100 years, so it’s very unlikely that alien civilizations are precisely at a stage compatible with ours. Another problem is that the signal strength, even if it is very collimated, would not have a very long range (10 kpc, for example). More advanced communication technologies are more likely to use something like quantum tunneling or some other faster method, and not only would there be no loss in signal strength, this would extend the range to the entire universe and allow for delay-free responses. I’m not saying that this technology will necessarily come from tunneling, but from something equivalent in terms of speed, preservation of “cleanliness” (no noise) and signal strength. But I don’t know if in 100 years it will be available. Maybe so, but I think less than 50% probability.

Jørgensen: As I think it will just be an inevitable fact to be behold in the near to far future, as to the possibility of interaction of new planetary species, the answer is yes. I find myself puzzling as to when this will happen, not if it ever will happen. But it should be noted as to what state, shape or form this alien encounter will be presented in…

Jacobsen: What can we humans expect from AI, according to health, war, space travel etc… in the near future?

Melão Jr.: It depends on some factors. If there are enough investments from now on, in 10 to 15 years we could have some people immortal, or at least have some people with the aging process dramatically slowed down and then stopped, while advances continue to later reverse this process and arrive at immortality. and then resuscitation. The strategy for this already exists, but to be put into practice it would need computational resources and a qualified team dedicating time to it.

Some of the important recent technological leaps have encountered barriers that the researchers involved are failing to overcome. AlphaZero was able to go up from -3000 (negative 3000) rating to 3500 rating with 9 hours of training, learning more in those 9 hours than all of humanity combined has been able to learn about chess in over 500 years. However, AlphaZero’s evolution curve bumped into an asymptotic limit and if it kept training for 100 years it wouldn’t be able to climb from 3500 to 3900, maybe not even 3800 or 3700. This effect also happens with Shogi, Gô, Atari games and probably almost all board games and other types of problems if addressed by this solution strategy.

If you use more processing power, yes, it can reach 4000, but in terms of improving heuristics, it has stagnated. A similar problem happens with Lc0 and StockFish. Stockfish shows no real improvement since version 13, the difference from version 15 to 13 is 4 points, while the uncertainty in the measurement is 17 points.

Source: https://ccrl.chessdom.com/ccrl/4040/rating_list_all.html

Demis Hassabis’ idea for using reinforcement deep learning the way he did was important in getting to this stage, but there is no prospect of moving forward until the issues that make the next step possible are resolved. In the case of AlphaZero I don’t know exactly what they did other than what they make available on the site, but in the case of Lc0 there is more public information and the system itself is available to be tested extensively, and there are many errors in Lc0 and optimization details inadequate that need improvement, and I suppose there are a lot of similar problems in the case of AlphaZero, maybe not quite the same problems as Lc0, but just as serious, certainly.

Jørgensen: If one looks at what we today experience regarding artificial intelligence, then for me it will be regarded towards optimism, this based on the extensive help that one can now receive in so many ways. Going forward, when a self-perception will be duly important for AI and its denotative constructs, can then quickly be turned witnessed by genuine concern of the unknown. One even hopes that the help that we all enjoy and know today for example by what Google Search, Google Translate, Google Maps etc., does for each of us every day all around the world. So, the way forward I hope, will address the preconception of securing humanity further for a common coexistence, with the fusing of our biological matter with the technological artificial intelligence into a higher form for symbiotic existential awareness, as an all-important first step to further human advances in the hope of preservation of our existential survival.

Regards to the topic of warfare, we see a lot of it today, with self-searching missile systems, drones etc. The soldiers of the future will in such a sense be superfluous, as rocket installations and long-distance warfare will deal with virtually all enemy installations and personnel. Small pockets of elite soldiers that we have today, where I want to highlight the Telemark Battalion, Norway’s elite soldiers, which soon will be equipped, I mean with improved performance over what is viewed as a normal top performance effect for humans in battle. A similar state of what the movie franchise ” The Universal Soldier”, displayed which many of us enjoyed in the early 90’s. This is form me the first obviously step to take for the advancement of elite forces in the near future.

To the point of space travel, we humans must adapt to long and very challenging space travel over long distances in the not too far future. Whereby challenges as for example, muscle loss, room sickness, and all the other biological challenges that we humans must deal with, where our human weaknesses emerge so all too well, will need to be limited at all costs if a long-distance space travel is to be successful.

As mentioned earlier, a changed outcome for our own part is essential for our survival in the future, we cannot solely rely on having to terra form new potential habitable planets, the time is not on our side for that. We are currently experts in adaptation regarding out surroundings come what may, so this is the way to go in the future of space travel. Furthermore, we need to find ways to travel faster than light, or to discover wormholes that can be exploited if possible.

If we are talking about long space travel, it is not enough to live for 80+ years as we do now, we extend our life expectancy to at least 200-300 hundred years or more with our current rocket speed limit slingshot through space in order to reach a potential planetary star systems that can house us in the future. The alternative is as mentioned earlier, to exceed the current light speed by many warps. In summary, if AI does not wipe us out and thus their need for self-preservation ceases, we must also cease our troublesome self-perception by and for the preservation of the biological origin over to a pre amt understanding by the transferable biological input- transference by morphonology technological output, resulting in an alternate state of existence to ensure the species’ survival.

Jacobsen: What are the future prospects of man according to AI and its non-extended properties in all faults, where emphasis is placed on: extinction of the species man or coexistence?

Melão Jr.: Depends on what will be considered “human”. In Asimov’s book/film “Bicentennial Man”, robots added more and more human parts, until they became practically human. But it’s more likely that the path followed in the real world is the other way around, and humans put more and more inorganic parts, until you get to a point where maybe only the brain remains, and maybe later the brain too is replaced by something equivalent, but with very different structure.

Jørgensen: The prospects for man, are for me in the hope of a formative symbiosis, where a common perception of ours and their values is united. But one sees clearly that this will probably not become a reality, if we humans today live in the present and are unable by the large amount to see beyond the horizon against the dangers that threaten if we continue the course we are now on today. My frustration is based on the following notion, if the interest as to the importance of the intellect is the same size as that of our head, and that the interest in the physiological ramifications correspond from the neck down, then the intellect will always lose ground for the physiological manifestations.

This is simplified, so that the people who can answer the challenges of the future are in my opinion in a weathering state of despair according to the general verification thereof. It can almost be states that; “are we humans worth saving or not?” This is probably where one can to a certain extent consider that all life is worth saving, but still, where do we draw the line for the preservability by species diversity. If we are to be able to answer the challenges of the future, then from what I see a deviation on the intelligence scale must be increased upwards at all levels.

For me, this is probably to be regarded as a type of Darwinian way of thinking, whereas the strong will prevail in the battle for ones right to exist and the weak will most likely perish, at least when it comes to one’s cognitive state. The technological challenges do not allow for those with limited cognitive abilities in the future, sad but true.

We are soon doomed to lose our current alpha role in society, and when this will happen, then only those with the best ability to adapt and shows willfulness through morphologically changing their original biological imprint towards a higher state of biotechnological self enhancement. In other words, the most selective adaptational individuals will have the best chances of securing one’s spawn further and the weakly will fall away, this can be seen as a necessity for the very continuation of our species survival in a hopefully subordinate role with AI as the new alpha.

Jacobsen: Does the term “genius” disappear according to what capabilities AI might possess?

Melão Jr.: The concept of “genius” should not be formulated to apply exclusively to humans. This concept can be subdivided in the taxonomic hierarchy by species, by genus, by family, etc. and may include new groups of organisms such as robots or organic and inorganic aliens, even the concept of “organic” could be reconsidered to include silicon beings, depending on the properties of the beings that eventually fall into this group.

One can use the concept of “human genius”, as well as “human giant”, or chimpanzee genius, giant chimpanzee, depending on the level of rarity or the amount of standard deviations away from the mean, or some similar criterion.

Within each animal, plant, mineral, monera, etc. and other alien life forms and inorganic beings, beings may “accept” some attributes that have a coherent meaning within their respective category, but not accept other attributes. For example: giant rocks, albino elephants, genius humans, triboluminescent fish . But not genius rocks or lepton bunnies or yellow scream, because some categories don’t accept certain concepts. They could admit as metaphors or poetic licenses, but the meanings would be analogies with some losses, distortions and damage to the rigor of the meanings. “Genius stones” would not establish an intelligible idea. I could try to force the “genius” attribute to stone, but that would start to have a consistency that is too fragile for proper analysis. It would be more advisable to “filter” the attributes that each category of entities could receive, to maintain some logical rigor in the analysis.

In this case, among all classes of organisms that accept the attribute “intelligence”, it would also be possible to apply quantifiers of relative intensity of intelligence, such as “genius”. The application of these attributes within the same species would be easier, because generally the distribution of a variable within the same species is similar to a Gaussian, or after a few transformations (logarithm of the variable, for example) it becomes similar to a Gaussian. A genius dog would be one with an intelligence 3 (or 4 or 5) standard deviations above the mean. Within the “dogs” group there is a smooth curve of intensity levels for variables such as height, running speed or intelligence.

When considering different species mixed together, the distribution form can no longer be normal, it can even be very different from a normal one and strongly asymmetric, with some discontinuities or with some deep reductions in frequency in the intervals that separate two species, moreover, in instead of taking the form of a normal, it may take the form of a distribution in which the smallest organisms are much more numerous than the largest. But the concept of level of rarity would still be applicable whatever the distribution of the variable of interest, so that it would still be possible to apply the attribute “genius” to a group of categories of beings, as long as the beings of these categories accepted the attribute “intelligence”. I am simplifying things, to describe the idea, but naturally the meaning of “genius” would not need to be based exclusively on “intelligence”. To get the point across, let’s assume that “genius” is simply a quantifier of intelligence.

By approaching the question in this way, perhaps mammals contained all the geniuses in existence. Or maybe the macroscopic animals contained all the jinn. It would depend a lot on what the criterion for conceptualizing “genius” would be. If it were for rarity within the population of individuals, whether individuals would be weighted by size, mass, by some other criterion, whether rarity would be stratified by species, etc. It would also depend on the cut-off point to determine at what rarity level the “genius” rating would start to apply, whether 1 in 1,000, or 1 in 1,000,000 or something else.

Analyzing an example: if we were to consider the distribution of all individuals of all species mixed together, without any weighting, then as the number of microorganisms is much greater than that of large organisms, if the number of microorganisms is 10^12 times greater than the number of insects and even larger beings, then insects could already be classified as “geniuses” because they would be at the top of 1 in 1,000,000 of the most intelligent beings in the general population, since the general population would be mostly of microorganisms. If the criterion were different and considered the average intelligence by species and stratified by species, on a planet with 10 million species, if the criterion for “genius” were 1 in 1 million, then probably some great apes and some great cetaceans would be classified as geniuses. Although humans are significantly above other primates, it would be a little more difficult to establish a statistical criterion along this path that would make it possible to “surgically” separate humans from other animals, including because there are some gorillas and chimpanzees that are more intelligent than some humans.

In this context, inorganic beings such as AIs that are smarter than humans, or almost as smart as humans or gorillas or dolphins, would also receive this classification of “geniuses”. If the criteria were based on rarity, there wouldn’t be much difference on an ordinal scale between a robot and a human, because they would both be near the top, the robot first in the world and humans second. While robots could be many orders of magnitude smarter than humans, the criterion based on rarity would not do much to create a special class for robots. This is a situation in which the standardization method I described in 2000 would be successfully applied, because it would make it possible to measure the extent to which robots are smarter than humans, rather than simply measuring species rarity levels.

In the current scenario, for example, humans are 1st and perhaps chimpanzees or gorillas are 2nd, and the proportion is relatively small of members of the species that are 1st to members of the species that are 2nd. Perhaps the average intelligence of humans is 100 times the average of chimpanzees, just 2 orders of magnitude. It is not much, there is even an intersection between the distributions of intellectual levels of humans and other great primates. In the case of AIs , perhaps the ratio to humans is something like 10^6 or 10^9, so even the smartest humans wouldn’t come close to the intellectual level of average intelligence machines, or even faulty machines. Perhaps, in the beginning, we preserved some intellectual attributes in which we could still excel, but it would be a matter of time before the machines were surpassing us in practically all relevant aspects.

If the criterion were based on proportion of intellectual potential, rather than levels of rarity, it would be easier and more logical to separate the intellectual level of robots and humans, as well as separating humans and other animals, although often not. there is a well-defined interface and the levels intersect.

Therefore the term genius would continue to be applicable, both within specific species and in groups of species and groups of intelligent entities. But instead of the term “genius” it might be necessary to use “human genius” to distinguish from “genius” among all species . Subdivisions could also be created at higher and lower levels. Human-scale “deep genius” or “universal genius” tests would be relatively little for AI systems, and an average AI level could be too high for any human to achieve. In the case of hybrid humans there would also be categories according to the breadth of the connection and the preserved proportion of humanity. In Asimov’s book/film “Bicentennial Man” he thinks that robots would want to become humans, but it is much more likely that humans want to become robots, which would be “dangerous” in many ways, because maybe the feeling, the emotion, some attributes that we consider essentially human and animals, may not be relevant to robots and will gradually become extinct. I wouldn’t know to what extent this could be bad. In science fiction robots evolve in the sense of developing feelings, but perhaps the real path of evolution is in the sense that humans are progressively deprived of organic parts associated with feelings.

Jacobsen: Does the term “genius” disappear according to what capabilities AI might possess?

Jorgensen: I will start by proclaiming the following statement of “never”, and here is why I think so. The term genius, better known as to the “creative intellect”, whereby the creative mind is put in focus as to the human creativeness. The innovative marvel that embraces our intellectual experience centers, proclaimed by peritonitis of amazement of what the human mind is capable of producing. This is what I want to statuette here forth, and not to move beyond what is meant to form the basis of the question formulation initially, the magical intellect.

The term “genius” for the intended purpose will here for me, not only remain, but also be reinforced, as it can easily be surpassed not in the short term but in the long term in terms of human intellectual maxims. Following protrude as to what one should then focus on, hereby understood as focus on the individual’s intellectual creativity, as many great innovators was far ahead of their own time, have given us mere mortals a glimpse into the future, duly noted, and as in most cases not in their own lifetimes, but after their passing. Then, when the final revelations come to light, then everyone can rediscover these geniuses again as a prompt renaissance seance, thus presenting the opportunity to be immortalized ones again for all future prosperity.

This goes for; Leonardo Da Vinci, Michelangelo, Raphael, and many more brilliant intellectual diamonds not only in the West, but for the rest of the world as well … Their inventions, their unbridled drive, courage, unstoppable perseverance to proclaim their worth in the past, present and, yes, promptly stated for all eternity. The unambiguity abilities of these innovators and their approach as to how the world works, or rather, to see what infinite possibilities the world has to offer far beyond us mere mortals, is for me the most beautiful human marvel of all the worlds creations.

In today’s world, most of the material we all use every day is being produced by an assembly line process controlled by machines. Machines account for almost everything that is being made today, everything from textiles, cars, food, electronics, heavy industry, shipping materials etc. What is being hand-made which was almost everything back 100-150 years ago, is now to be viewed as very exclusive and precious more now than ever before. In the future, this effect, as I see it, will only increase in its exclusivity, especially when it comes to what the human imaginative innovations, bespoke and perfected with the extra little distinctiveness. And it is the distinctiveness that will become so much more of a valuable commodity, the handcraft that only a human can create with his faults and shortcomings, far beyond of what any machine could ever create, machine production is without sense of feel, a gentle touch, delicacy, emotions, just lifeless production without any notion of self-pride…

A.I will be able to create beautiful architectural structures, cars, textiles etc. but put a little bluntly, AI for me represents; “quantity”, and for the human genius it represents; “quality.” Which one would you like…? AI will be amazing in many ways, possibly far beyond what we can ever truly understand, but it will never be able to replace those most special human qualities. We as humans are unique in every way just as our fingerprints are, no two are alike, on an equal footing with all living beings, we are not mass-produced.

Not that this is necessarily the case with AI, but I see that I am also a bit hesitant about cloning as well, as even here the uniqueness is diluted to a certain degree. Genius will for me remain unchanged and most likely only reinforced further ahead in the future, as we will only even more, hold on to the fundamental values of being that very special person, where you are you and no one else has your particular qualities, whereas your extraordinary abilities cannot be recreated by any higher intelligent being, not now, not ever…

Jacobsen: What will be the basis of AI’s very existence, will it see its own usefulness and will try to develop and preserve it, but then for what purpose?

Melão Jr.: The path leading carbon-based beings to develop consciousness was very different from the path being followed by silicon systems. The first organisms arose spontaneously and they did not consciously think or struggle to survive or multiply. It was random behavior, among other random behaviors, that ended up favoring some alternatives and making populations of entities with certain characteristics more numerous than others. Therefore, from the moment that life appears, it tends to multiply and evolve. In the course of this process, consciousness, pain, hunger, fear, greed, loyalty, love, friendship, empathy, and other extremely complex chemical processes that produce certain reactions to certain stimuli, reactions that previously pass through a very complicated process between the moment the organism receives the stimulus and reacts to it, leading us to what we are today, as well as other animals, plants, fungi, bacteria, etc. to what they are today. The reaction of removing the hand from the fire when feeling pain or the process of choosing a partner with wider hips to procreate were modeled throughout this process as factors that increased our likelihood of producing more offspring for the next generation. There are many factors, and they were not consciously planned. In the case of robots, we are trying to recreate this in a simplified way and in a very different way, in which we want to prevent them from becoming competitive with us.

In an article in which I show that Moravec’s paradox is actually a pseudo-paradox, I comment on the example of the car, the way it moves faster than other animals, but using different structures, different strategy and taking advantage of laws different physiques. In chess machines play better than humans, but they don’t “think” in a similar way. Before AlphaZero, machines thought very differently, but they were able to solve the same problems much better than we could, in different ways. We understood many concepts and tried to apply these concepts in relatively complex decision processes to choose the best bids, while the programs did not understand any concepts, they just did a lot of calculations and used appropriate heuristics to prune the tree of possibilities and prevent the forks from branching. a number much higher than they could calculate. But with AlphaZero this situation changed very radically and he really started to simulate the “understanding” of strategic concepts, and he went far beyond humans in this, because he understands the concepts more and better, he discovered many concepts that we still don’t understand.

Chess programs prior to AlphaZero only received a simplified algorithmic description of a few concepts, a small part of the concepts that we knew and considered most relevant, and compensated for the lack of strategic “knowledge” with immense calculation capacity and good heuristics. to prune variants that did not deserve to be explored in depth. But AlphaZero plays like a human, he even calculates worse than humans in situations with long variants that have few ramifications, and this is impressive, because a human calculates 1 or 2 throws per second, while AlphaZero calculates 30,000 throws per second. Even so, humans calculate further than Alpha Zero in some positions. Of course, despite this Alpha Zero plays much better, but that’s not a major novelty. Since 2007 and maybe since 2003, programs have played better than humans, but never have they shown to “understand” the game better than humans and calculate worse than humans. Perhaps I should comment a little more on why Deep Blue’s victory in 1997 could not be interpreted as the watershed of when machines surpassed humans in chess, but that would be a bit extensive. I will just say that Deep Blue wasn’t that strong, won by “luck” (and with a few other suspicions) and was removed from the scene so that no one would find out what really happened. It’s different from when Deep Junior and Deep Fritz tied with Kasparov and Kramnik in 2000 and 2003, and finally when Rybka emerged in 2005-2007, the supremacy of machines became unquestionable.

While AlphaZero’s 30,000 throws per second is far less than StockFish’s 3,000,000,000 throws per second, it’s far more than humans’ 2 throws per second, yet humans still calculate better than AlphaZero in some cases, while AlphaZero “understands ” concepts are much better than humans. In a way, it’s as if AlphaZero is more human than humans, in some ways. AlphaZero followed a path in which he himself evolved for this, without human intervention, without learning anything from humans, similar to living carbon beings. So this seems to be a promising path, in some ways. Of course, the analogy is neither broad nor perfect, AlphaZero is probably more complex than a microorganism, so it started its evolution at a different point. In addition, there are many other differences, and some human “guidance” on how he should evolve, although there are no interventions in the content he learns and how he discovers knowledge and how he selects the most useful knowledge, there is a broad prior structure created by humans about the criteria and structure that it should adopt to learn, while microorganisms did not have this, there was much greater “freedom” to test anything that worked, and in this process some reactions such as “fear” or “hunger” ended up emerging. as “useful”, but for AlphaZero it would not be in the still specialized context in which it operates.

Then we come to the car situation. A human moves very differently from a horse, a flea, a snake, a bird or a fish, but all animals have a certain similarity in the process of moving that is very different from using wheels. Perhaps the snake is more different from other animals, but it also moves very differently from a being that uses wheels. Although these animals are different from each other, they are all very different from the car, and a car like a Bugatti can beat all animals at speed (on a proper track). Nature never produced an animal that developed wheels, because it was something “planned” to adapt to a situation whose properties were understood by the wheel designer and there was not much need to do billions of random tests to find a good fit. Another important point is that the ground has been adjusted to harmonize with the wheels. No other animal does this very ostentatiously. Beavers can build small dams, and other animals can build other structures that affect the environment, such as corals or bees, but humans do this in a much deeper and “planned” way. The beaver doesn’t think about how to build the dams, he simply follows his instinct like factory pre-installed software. It is different from humans, who look at a mountain, want to make a road through it, and analyze whether it is better to drill a hole in the mountain, go over it, go on one side or go down and follow another path without changing the landscape. Also, humans can use many different methods to drill through the mountain and can create new technologies for it, while beavers will follow the same method as their ancestors did.

So the way humans interact with the environment is much more complex, and humans are able to continually optimize and improve their methods, rather than relying on random evolutionary changes that cause the next generations to be born with mutations that lead them to test different strategies for dig holes in mountains. Thus, humans can plan wheels and flat lanes that match better than legs on paths with uneven topologies. In addition, the use of fuels, engines, various devices that improve the process of locomotion of a car evolve very differently from the natural evolution of animals. Leonardo Da Vinci’s idea of using propellers instead of wings was also very interesting, although he was probably based on Archimedes’ screw. Before him, and after him, for centuries and millennia people wanted to fly imitating birds, using wings. But Leonardo understood that this was not the case and showed that this may not be the most promising path, or at least there may be one or more alternative paths to consider.

So the way machines are evolving under our guidance may never produce something like consciousness, because they do exclusively what we would like them to do to meet specific needs and solve specific problems, or broader problems, but with well-defined limits. However, when machines begin to have “freedom” to evolve by themselves, as happened with AlphaGo, AlphaZero, MuZero, Lc0 etc., the directions that things can take are out of our control and maybe they choose paths that lead to formation of characteristics such as fear, selfishness, ambition, revolt, etc. As the training of these machines can be very fast, and in 10 hours a machine can develop a “personality”, it becomes dangerous that this escapes our control and that psychopathic, human-killing machines are created, or simply that they feel wronged by the way humans make use of them. At the current stage, MuZero is still far from creating a personality of his own during evolution in his training, but with 1 or 2 innovative leaps in the evolutionary process, this could already become a reality. I am using “evolution” and “training” mixed together, but they are quite different and can and should be combined, with the difference that in the Darwinian model of Evolution organisms do not transmit characters acquired during life, but for machines this can be configured according to our will, a form of Neo Lamarckism.

So the formation of consciousness will depend a lot on the path taken in the evolutionary process, on strategic interruptions in this process to test how they are developing, etc. Even so, it is dangerous, because machines can “pretend” that they are evolving along a certain path, so that they can proceed without interruption. So I think that if humanity doesn’t self-destruct in a war or there’s no shortage of energy to continue technological advances, or some other impediment, probably machines, sooner or later, will develop consciousness, although maybe it’s a very different kind of consciousness from ours. Perhaps they understand that they exist, perhaps they “want” to remain active (alive) and fight for it, perhaps they are competitive with some machines and allied with others, in addition to the possibility of all being connected in a single central and there is no difference between individuality and collective, while they are connected. Perhaps before all this happens, we are already well integrated with them, with more than 50% of the human body replaced by mechanical/electronic parts and we are part of these connections. Perhaps they use our brains as a complement to process their consciousness.

Jørgensen: Every creation of varying degrees of intelligent designation can have its experience of the importance of preserving the survival of one’s species. We as humans are cognitively minded in the preservation, by and for the future preservation of our species. Can the same be said for the survival of the various animal diversity? Is species diversity of lower cognitive perception, whereas the transfer of latent instincts can then be seen as elements of safeguarding the species’ right to further existence? Which then further brings me, to what can be said about artificial intelligence and if it will only be viewed as a mere reinforcing factor for future consolidation of species diversity’s right to self-preservation over one’s species brethren.

The distance can well be duly noted, as to be amplified as the distance from animals to humans is of a certain preconception of the biological separation, a “us and them.” This is thought by the undersigned to be amplified according to our own biological imprint, as well as cognitive perception to be weathered even more according to an upgraded bionic entity, whereby the degree of inclination is tended towards full technological function regarding both the physiological and cognitive statute. For me, the distance will be perceived as increasing, and those who are seen as subordinates will then again be regarded as non-important elements for species diversity conservation in the future.

The weak fall away and perish and the strong will survive.

AI, for me, will have all these qualities in the more distant future as we as humans will not be considered important enough to be preserved. I sadly feel that we humans have outplayed our most important thus dominant role in the big picture.

But what about AI and its role, when “it” perceives themselves with their extremely exalted cognitive state, will they make the necessary calculations for the decision either or according to cessation due to lack of view on the preservation of one’s own species. An unavoidable fact, is that we humans need a reason to exist, a secure anchor point to be able to behold the meaning of life if you will, it can be within, religion, politics, environment, etc. But the fact that we all need a reason to get up in the morning cannot be discussed away, let alone with AI, and their reason for “getting up in the morning”, if I may allow me to put it like that, what will be their reason for getting up in the morning?

I must admit that this is of course only speculative formatives to be considered purely as a hypothetically presentation, but still … It is conceivable that of what imprints that man has installed in AI’s connotative state, can be considered as a sufficient basis for preservation beyond what one can speculate here.

If the reason can be revealed for a future whereby only technological mechanical objects are present, the biological diversity will be weathered, as their existential merits will for me cease to exist. By what is a machine to do with forests, flowers, animals, insects etc. but to see them as simple and pointless obstructions…

I in a moment of utopistic hope, that, to take concise notes, then change one’s biological structural in the search for something more imminent and substantially bearing. If AI wants to experience nature’s fantastic seasonal manifestations that we all as humans experience and adore, AI will look at this blue planet as something worth to be preserved, but realistically, it does not necessarily meet AI and its own ideals of beautiful nor necessary and important life functions for innovative and vital incentives by and for conservation of the species.

I find myself concluding the following notion, by not finding a fully enlighten obvious answer as to “the meaning of life” for AI, hopefully this answer will be presented by some of you that reads this…

Footnotes

[2] Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies, including World Genius Directory, NOUS High IQ Society, 6N High IQ Society just to name a few. Tor Arne was also in 2019, nominated for the World Genius Directory 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe. He is also the designer of the high range test site; www.toriqtests.com.

[3] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1)[Online]. June 2022; 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 15). Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.D (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Hindemburg Melão Jr. and Tor Arne Jørgensen on A.I., I.Q., and the Future: Founder, Sigma Society; 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (1)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/melao-jorgensen-1.

License

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-15

Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,581

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies, including World Genius Directory, NOUS High IQ Society, 6N High IQ Society just to name a few. He has several IQ scores above 160+ sd15 among high range tests like Gift/Gene Verbal, Gift/Gene Numerical of Iakovos Koukas and Lexiq of Soulios. Tor Arne was also in 2019, nominated for the World Genius Directory 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe. He is the only Norwegian to ever have achieved this honor. He has also been a contributor to the Genius Journal Logicon, in addition to being the creator of toriqtests.com, where he is the designer of now eleven HR-tests of both verbal/numerical variant. His further interests are related to intelligence, creativity, education developing regarding gifted students. Tor Arne has an bachelor`s degree in history and a degree in Practical education, he works as a teacher within the following subjects: History, Religion, and Social Studies. He discusses: education; a new cohort of students; build a rapport; identifying the more astute students; teaching; teachers get good or stay bad at teaching young students; the most difficult; encourage good behaviour; and deal with highly difficult students.

Keywords: education, schooling, the young, Tor Arne Jorgensen.

Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Education is a fundamental aspect of the long-term health of a society. You happen to work with the next generations in teaching. You have two kids. I wanted to explore a bit of the background in education within this context. “How?” in general. “How to do it properly?” in particular. We have touched a bit upon these things in parts of interviews at times. Although, I would like to cover some more of this. So, let’s cover some of the groundwork, what is your fundamental stance on educating the next generation of Norwegians?

Tor Arne Jorgensen[1],[2]*: My basis for educating or explaining the future, as well as proclaiming the bearing generation and then whether or not their imprint as to what extent is influenced by the scholastic institutions can hopefully here be valued in some sense. The broad discrepancies of the like-minded kind of today’s academic institutions are to be considered an offspring’s fallacy and should according to what I now proclaim hereby end in their current state of form. The way forward is rather to embrace in the notion of change through adaption away from today’s obsolete form, towards a more fluid state inclined towards structural changes at the pace that will be considered viable by tomorrows standards. Thus, leading in accordance above and beyond today technologically advances not only limited to one own country but in a conglutinating state on a global scale.

Today’s schools are so mind-bogglingly far behind that it’s an embarrassment to be behold, the Norwegian academic institutions specifically directed toward the primary and secondary schools must start listening to what’s going on out there on the international scene, by reforming themselves towards the more pruned; intellectually, innovative, and creative people in any way possible in the near too far future. When schools find themselves relying solely on highly educated academics, who have completed the formation of a failed and obsolete system that again will only pass on the same shipwreck system to the next generation, what then will this result in…? If one bothers to gaze in the direction with regards to most brilliant innovators of our time, men like; Elon Musk, Bill Gates, and previous Steve Jobs etc. then the same thing is said repeatedly, “you must hire innovators who see the world differently.” Their brilliant minds that were, and still are today reinvent an entirely new systems that are directly adapted to the ongoing developing societies, find themselves thrusting forward in quantum leaps, but not so much by the educational institutions, why is that…?

What is explicitly clear to me, is the need for a completely new mindset by and of tomorrow’s educational institutions. A clear comparison is according to space travel, NASA was about to throw in the towel, their overpriced misuse and chuck away mentality was completely disconnected, until for example Elon Musk came along and reinvented a completely new way of thinking in terms of cost savings toward a competitive space industry, today space travel is at full speed ahead with the right kind of innovator at the helm. So, look I say, at those with innate talent far beyond what an everyday academic can comprehend.

Today’s schools in Norway and beyond are putting all their eggs in the wrong basket, I can only hope that the institutional directories will one day wake up and maybe just maybe look outwards at the real people who can actually get the educational direction on the right course again, and not keep their current course straight into the iceberg.

Jacobsen: When you get a new cohort of students, how do you introduce yourself?

Jorgensen: The introduction process is relatively simple, as one emphasizes what is expected of oneself and what is to be expected of the students in return. That is, what can the students expect from me according to academic content, further, what a class leader commits to, as well as social understandings. Who I am privately for the sake of what I do and my abilities in that sense does not matter in any sense. The students, on their part, present at the request forwarded by me about their expectations of me as a teacher, regarding both academic and social.

Jacobsen: How long does it, typically, take to build a rapport with them?

Jorgensen: This process of uncovering any structural intrigues, class compositions etc. Is a time-consuming task, where one must look at each individual student and their roles in the class society. Who are “the shakers and movers”, and who are not? What type of pupil characteristics goes together and who does not, who is comes forth as rootless and who creates group affiliation from within for the sake of calm structural balance. The social aspect is probably what must be continuously worked on to be adjusted throughout the school year by order to meet the best possible academic benefit for all students.

Jacobsen: We have talked about identifying the more astute students. Those who are intelligent and disengaged, or intelligent and motivated. The former, maybe, needing a bit more of a prod. Let’s cover that again, here, so it’s in one place, thematically appropriate too. How do you identify them? In Norway, there’s a culture of negation of arrogance, which can be healthy in a lot of ways.

Jorgensen: The process by which identification in the innate state of natural brilliance of the intellectual supreme being has several well-known and thus recognizable trademarks, and as there are a lot of these trademarks to be identified as such, I will just name a few of them in this brief section. Short summarized as; evasive, restlessness, and reflective characteristics of what is deemed above normal relative to age level of that particular student as well as the innate metacognitive affiliations are decided factors for me valued as unavoidable and inalienable characteristics of higher characteristics within the field of the student-based intelligentsia.

Jacobsen: Why, of all professions, choose teaching? It’s underpaid, lacks as much respect as medical doctor, and requires significant patience in working with the young.

Jorgensen: If my mindset had been in this direction, then my choice of profession would never have fallen onto the teaching profession.

Yes, there is a lot of distress that is not taken care of according to most things within my field of work. That said, there are many more rights that in turn outweighs the wrongs.

I am not an idealist in the sense of being blinded by utopian silliness, nor am I a capitalist go doer as this surly fall on its own unreasonableness.

My wish is to work with people where a possible outcome in the end, is to be able to see that one has brought through the academic line a person who can and will become a meaningful individual for a future oriented society in the most positive sense. That one is able to see that one’s own efforts has led to an improved condition for our surroundings, an all-purpose environment improvement to benefit us all in the long run. Lastly, to direct the future generation to be the bearers of society after our own turn is done, to pass the torch on in the faith that all will be ok…

Jacobsen: How do teachers get good or stay bad at teaching young students?

Jorgensen: In the quest for appliance by “get good”, the answer is simple. You must develop yourself both professionally and emotionally. Being aware of the aspect of the developing society that surrounds us, is now more crucial than ever before. The teachers who prove able to see that this adaptation as an undeniable imperative, will then be the mainstay for the teachers who see this as their absolute obligation.

Those teachers who in some way seems to be unable to reinvent themselves or adapt themselves and are thereby stuck in their rudimentary traditional structures, where upon there is no room for innovative initiatives, nor any attempts of adaptation towards society’s normative, fall at the risk of becoming permanently passive in their learning initiatives regarding the students’ weathering of academic requirements for the proper competence.

Jacobsen: What ages for teaching can be the most difficult?

Jorgensen: All ages can bring with them their own uniquely challenging qualities, but what usually presents itself is in terms of general challenges across the entire emotional scale of your average student, is probably thus most promptly disposed around the age of 12-16 years.

Jacobsen: How do you encourage good behaviour in students?

Jorgensen: Through some simple positive directed concepts listed as follow: Accountability, self-perception, self-esteem, social acceptance, general recognition, and finally overall acknowledgement as to how they the students want their general environment to view them as…Here the main focus is positive input into every category listed above, this is done to give the students the proper initiative for a focused based and innated direction toward a meaningful adult productive existent that is beneficial for the whole community.

Jacobsen: Also, how do you deal with highly difficult students?

Jorgensen: By confirmation and acceptance. These students need to be understood and supported, put forward through a secure social framework, only then can one to a certain extent expect professional competence development. But the theme around challenging students is never easy, some you can help, and others you cannot.

All Norwegian schools have a support system that helps them if the schools themselves should deem it as an aperitive incentives by fear of falling short regarding their original contract obligations.

Footnotes

[1] Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics [Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 15). Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1.

Brazilian Natio0ffffffnal Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Schooling the Young 1: Tor Arne Jorgensen on the Educational Basics [Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/teaching-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-08

Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 27,179

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Hindemburg Melão Jr. (January 15, 1972) was born in São Paulo, Brazil. He founded the most, or one of the most, selective high-I.Q. societies, the Sigma Society and is the Creator of the Sigma Test Extended. He is a philosopher, chess analyst, and an astrophotographer. He published hundreds of articles on chess, finance, philosophy, science, and more. He discusses: an extensive preamble of gratitude and clarifications to the interview; growing up; extended self; family background; youth with friends; education; purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence; extreme reactions to geniuses; greatest geniuses; genius and a profoundly gifted person; necessities for genius or the definition of genius; work experiences and jobs held; job path; myths of the gifted; God; science; tests taken and scores earned; range of the scores; ethical philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; worldview; meaning in life; source of meaning; afterlife; life; and love.

Keywords: Albert Frank, AlphaZero, American Biographical Institute, artificial intelligence, Bahá’í Faith, Baran Yonter, Catholic, Cattell, Chris Harding, Christopher Michael Langan, Deus VULT, Domagoj Kutle, Galois, Galton, Garth Zietsman, Gauss, George Zweig, Grady Towers, Guinness Book of World Records, Guilherme Marques dos Santos Silva, Hindemburg Melão Jr., hrIQt, intelligence, Intertel, Isaac Newton, ISIS Test, ISPE, Jimmy Rogers, Kardecism, Keith Raniere, Kevin Langdon, Kim Ung-Yong, Langdon Adult Intelligence Test, life, Marilyn vos Savant, Martial Arts, Mega Society, Mega Test, Murray Gell-Mann, MuZero, native Indian, Neumann, Nobel Prize, Pars Society, Pascal, Paul Cooijmans, Paulo Reginaldo Pascholati, Petri Widsten, pIQ, Prometheus Society, Richard Lynn, Rick Rosner, rIQ, Ronald Hoeflin, science, Sigma Society, Sigma Test Extended, Stanford-Binet, Titan Test, TNS, views, work.

Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*English version at the top. Portuguese version at the bottom.*

First of all, I want to thank my girlfriend Tamara, for her patience in reading this text and helping me to cut long unnecessary snippets, Tor for the kindness of referring me for this interview and you for accepting this nomination and for your kind help with the translation review.

As much as possible, I tried to synthesize and simplify, but whenever it was necessary to decide between the shortest and the most correct answer, I chose the one that seemed to me the most correct. As a result, I ended up going longer than I would have liked and branching out some answers for details that apparently lose link to the question, but are actually indirectly connected by two, three, or more nodes, so that if those snippets were removed , there would be gaps that would compromise coherence.

Before presenting the answers, it is necessary to make some important clarifications: when the question is simple, it is enough to give a short answer so that the interpretation is univocal, but for complex questions, before answering it is necessary to conceptualize some of the terms used, to minimize the differences. between the message to be transmitted and the interpretation that will be made of it. A question like “Why, in chess, aren’t all doubled pawns weaknesses?” There is no way to answer in a way that gives a correct idea in just 1 or 2 paragraphs, not even if the answer was simplified and summarized. To try to provide a reasonably correct and complete idea, at least 20 pages are needed, with several examples commented. In this interview, some questions involve similar situations.

This kind of difficulty is inherent in any question involving IQ, because the concept currently disseminated has some flaws that need to be properly revised, and some of these revisions are not trivial, requiring a considerable amount of preliminary clarification to ensure that the interpretation of the answer is sufficiently accurate and reliable.

Outside of high IQ societies, it is common for people to confuse scales with different standard deviations. James Woods’ SAT score 1579 is often converted to 180, while Bill Gates’ 1590 score is converted to 154 (sometimes 160), and both appear on the same list as if Woods’ IQ was higher than Gates’, although it is the opposite. This kind of primary error has all but been eradicated in high-IQ societies, but there are still systematic errors being ostensibly repeated, some of which are large and serious. These errors cause a lot of confusion and make it difficult to correctly interpret fundamental questions. I am not referring to individual mistakes, made by a few people, but to “institutionalized” mistakes, universally accepted as if they were right and made by practically everyone.

In 2000, I solved a central problem in Psychometrics that had been dragging on since the 1950s, when Thurstone and Gardner realized the importance of standardizing cognitive tests in order to produce proportion-scale scores. Bob Seitz of Mega Society referred to this problem as “The Holy Grail of Psychometry”. After investigating this issue and resolving it, I published an article describing my method and showing how tests should be standardized. I also reviewed the Mega Test and Titan Test standards using this method. In 2003, I applied the same method to Sigma Test and published another, more detailed article, describing the entire standardization process step-by-step and explaining the reasons why this procedure is superior to the methods used. Among the chronic problems that are solved naturally with the application of this method, one of the most important is the correction in the calculations of percentiles and rarity levels. This is a systematic error that has been made since 1905. I will comment on this question in a little more detail in answering questions dealing with this topic.

There are two other mistakes that are made systematically, although the solutions to them are already known but are not applied, in part because these problems are not well understood: the problem of construct validity and the problem of the adequacy of the level of difficulty of the questions. to the level of intelligence that is intended to be measured. In a way, these problems are connected, because tests generally have good construct validity for a given range of skill levels, but not for the entire range in which the test is intended to measure, so the results turn out to be reasonably accurate and reliable for people whose scores are within the validity range, but begin to show serious distortions outside this range. A classic example to illustrate this problem is the Stanford-Binet V. The cognitive processes required to solve the BLS questions may be appropriate for correctly measuring intelligence in the range of 60 to 140, but begin to be less appropriate between 140 and 150 , so scores above 150 are already predominantly representing a latent trait that is not what was intended to be measured. This completely compromises the validity of this type of instrument for measurement above 150, and puts in doubt the extent to which scores between 140 and 150 are actually reflecting the intellectual level.

To better organize the information, before proceeding I will mention 3 important mistakes that are systematically made by professional psychometrists and in high IQ societies:

The way in which tests are standardized, both clinical tests and high range IQ tests (hrIQts) – either through the use of Item Response Theory or Classical Test Theory – produces distortions in the scale, and the way in which the percentiles are calculated leads to results that are very far from reality. This distortion in the scale has already been pointed out since the 1950s, by Thurstone, and had already been noticed (although not described) by Binet himself in 1905. A good method for normalizing intelligence tests should produce scores on a scale of proportion, but IQ scores are presented on an ordinal scale ( https://www.questionpro.com/blog/nominal-ordinal-interval-ratio/ ). In addition, errors in the calculations of rarity levels present very large distortions in the highest scores, reaching more than 3 orders of magnitude. This is because the calculations start from the incorrect assumption that the distribution of IQs is Gaussian throughout. The morphology of the distribution is in fact very similar to that of a Gaussian in the range -2σ to +2σ, but it starts to break down outside this range. This fact cannot be overlooked when calculating percentiles. The way the calculations are currently done by psychometricians and in high-IQ communities, results are far from correct. Therefore, when talking about the 99.9999% percentile or IQ 176 (σ=16), the meanings are very different, although they are used as if they were the same thing. The correct rarity for IQ=176 is not 1 in 983,000, but 1 in 24,500. And this does not happen because the standard deviation is greater. The standard deviation is the same (16 in this example), but the right tail is denser than in a normal distribution, making higher scores more abundant than would be expected if the distribution were exactly Gaussian. This is a problem related to the morphology of the true distribution, which does not fit the theoretical model of normal distribution. In fact, it doesn’t fit any of the 100+ distributions tested well, including the more versatile ones like the 3-parameter Weibull distribution.
Another problem is that the difficulty level of the most difficult questions of each test is not compatible with the nominal ceiling of the test. As a consequence, such a test proves to be inappropriate for the range of IQs it should measure. The test works properly within a certain range, in which it contains questions of compatible difficulty, but fails to function outside that range. This is much more serious in clinical trials, where the ceiling of difficulty rarely exceeds 135 to 140, but the nominal ceiling can reach more than 200 (Stanford-Binet V, for example). Above 140, clinical tests measure how fast you can solve elementary problems, which is not necessarily an appropriate metric for representing intelligence at the highest levels. In hrIQt cases, in the “difficulty” question, questions are usually appropriate up to about 170 or 180, but not much higher. Here it would be necessary to open a long parenthesis to discuss the meaning of these scores, because up to 130 or a little above, the theoretical rarity is almost equal to the true rarity, but for 140, 150 and above, the theoretical rarity becomes more and more distant. of true rarity. So when we talk about 180 of IQ (σ=16), it is not enough to inform the standard deviation. In addition, it is necessary to inform if we are talking about the score measured in a test or if it is a true percentile converted into IQ. If the distribution of IQs were exactly Gaussian across their spectrum, then an IQ of 180 (σ=16) should correspond to a rarity level of 1 in 3,500,000, but the true rarity of 180 scores is around 1 in 48,000. Later I mention a link in which I describe how to get to that 1 in 48,000 rarity level.
Another problem is related to construct validity, that is, whether what the test is measuring is in fact what it is intended to measure. The best clinical tests (WAIS and SB) are very good at this criterion for the range of 70 to 130, because this topic has been widely debated among good psychometricians for decades and some good criteria have been established to assess (albeit subjectively) whether the items are measuring what they should be measuring (intelligence, in this case, or the g factor). However, outside this range of 70 to 130, the measured variable becomes increasingly different from what was intended to be measured. In hrIQts the range is a little longer, it reaches around 160, some tests reach 170 or even 180.

In addition to these 3 issues that are seen in virtually all clinical trials and all hrIQts, there are also some individual issues, which are more basic and only affect some specific tests, such as inflated norm, template errors, misstatements, etc. I will not deal with those, because they are already well known and easy to identify and correct.

It is important not to confuse construct validity with difficulty level adequacy. A very elementary issue, with a very short time frame to resolve, may have adequate difficulty to measure at the 1 in 10 million rarity level, because although it is inherently easy, as the time frame is reduced, it ends up being difficult to resolve within that time frame. In such cases, the difficulty may be appropriate for measuring something at very high levels of rarity, but this latent trait being measured is not what it should be measuring. Furthermore, the fact that a test has construct validity in a given interval does not imply that it will necessarily have validity at levels far above or far below that interval. This is one of the most common mistakes, because validating an intelligence test for 98% of the population does not guarantee that it will continue to correctly measure intelligence at the level of the highest 1% or 0.1% of scores. Validation needs to be careful at all intervals at which the test is intended to be able to measure correctly.

There are also some more subtle issues. The Raven Standard Progressive Matrices, for example, have been used by Mensa in several countries for decades, but are inadequate to correctly measure above 120, perhaps even above 115. The reason is that the test consists of 60 questions, but only 1 or 2 of these questions (the most difficult ones) are useful to discriminate at the level of 133, which is where Mensa intends to select. So it is as if only 2 of the 60 questions were used, and a sample with only 2 elements cannot be considered statistically valid. In fact, the cut-off at 133 is not exactly determined by 1 or 2 questions, but these 2 questions account for over 90% of the test’s discriminating power at this cut-off level.

For these reasons, if there is a sincere interest in IQ questions getting answers that are representative of reality, these three problems need to be fixed:

Unfounded extrapolation of construct validity;
Inadequacy of the difficulty of the items for the intellectual level that the test intends to measure;
Adoption of incorrect hypotheses about the shape of the distribution of scores at the highest levels, based on the shape in the region close to the central tendency.

In addition to these, there are other points that need to be clarified. There is a widespread myth that clinically applied tests are “better” (more reliable, more accurate, more reliable) than hrIQts. In some cases, they really are. But not at all. For scores below 130, supervised tests are standardized based on larger, unselected samples. This constitutes a real advantage of clinical trials compared to hrIQts. Another advantage is that good psychometricians know a greater number of statistical techniques, so in the range from 70 to 130, the best supervised tests usually produce more reliable scores. However, above 130, and especially above 140, supervised tests present several problems, starting with the inadequate ceiling of difficulty. The most difficult WAIS questions, for example, are too easy for them to measure intelligence above 135. Another problem is that the construct validity of supervised tests is designed for the range of 70 to 130, not applying as well outside of that range.

I made a simulated example to show what the construct variable problem consists of:

The blue line represents the latent trait ^[*]that we would like to measure (intelligence or g-factor or something). The red circles represent the scores obtained in the test converted into IQ. In the range between 0 and 120, the measured scores are very good representations of the latent trait, because the points are distributed closely close to the blue line, indicating a strong correlation between the variable we would like to measure and the variable we are actually measuring. [*https://dictionary.apa.org/latent-trait-theory, https://www.jstor.org/stable/1434009%5D

From 120 onwards, and especially from 130 onwards, the red circles begin to move further and further away from the blue line, indicating that the correlation between the variable we would like to measure and the variable that is actually being measured becomes more and more weak, so what we are measuring is becoming less and less representative of what we would like to measure. If you consider the entire range from 0 to 200, or even from 70 to 200, the correlation still looks strong, but that’s only because the range 70 to 120 is contained within the range 70 to 200, and as in the range 70 to 120 the correlation is strong, this improves the average correlation of the entire range from 70 to 200, but when considering exclusively the correlation between 130 and 200, it is noticed that the correlation is weak in this region and becomes weaker for the scores taller. Therefore, for scores above 130, what matters is not the global correlation, but the local correlation.

On IQ tests like the Stanford-Binet, for example, some very fast people with a true IQ of 150 can score 190 or more as a consequence of the problem described above. The opposite effect can also happen, and people with a true IQ of 190, if they are very slow, can score 150, 140 or even less. The size of errors can reach really high levels, both for more than correct and for less than correct, which is why construct validity ^[*]is an extremely important issue. [*https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct_validity]

A test that has good construct validity should behave like the one shown in the graph below, in which the red circles remain close to the blue line throughout the entire spectrum within which it is intended to measure:

Of course, if the sample has a normal distribution, the data will be distributed approximately like an ellipse, not like a line that was represented above, but for didactic purposes this example needs to be like this to be visually clearer the increase in the amplitude of the dispersion of the measures in relative to the latent trait we would like to measure. It is also worth emphasizing that, in the real world, situations like the one in the graph above practically do not exist, because the alignment is too good. But it is desirable that the measured scores be able to provide good representations for the latent trait within as wide a range as possible.

In supervised IQ tests, used in clinics, disparities usually start to become serious from 130 and especially from 140, that is, what the test measures above 140 is no longer a good representation of Intelligence. In the cases of the best hrIQts, the scores remain reasonably good representations of the latent trait up to IQ 160 or so.

A test may have questions of an appropriate difficulty level, but what the questions are measuring may not be intelligence. Or it may happen that the measured variable is intelligence, but only within a specific range (as in the first graph). Some puzzles for children, for example, can be effective in correctly measuring the mental age range of 8 to 16 years, or 50 to 100 IQ on an adult scale, but if you use these same puzzles to try to measure the Adult IQs above 160 or 170, the result will be disastrous, because the ability to quickly solve these puzzles cannot be interpreted as a good representation of intelligence at this level. Therefore, the type of problem needs to be compatible with the intellectual level that is intended to be measured.

Generally, the smartest people are also quicker to solve basic questions, but the fact that they solve simple questions quickly does not offer a good guarantee that the person will also be able to solve more complex, deep questions that require creativity. In addition, the fact that a person is able to solve complex, deep questions that require creativity does not provide a good guarantee that he will be able to quickly solve basic questions. As the tests used in clinics exclusively include basic questions, the effect shown in Graph 1 ends up being very frequent.

This issue is discussed in more detail in the introductory text of Sigma Test Extended.

It is also necessary to standardize the meanings of some terms that I will use in the answers:

rIQ = rarity IQ, or IQ (σ=16 G), or rIQ (σ=16 G)

pIQ = Potential IQ, or IQ (σ=16 T), or pIQ (σ=16 T)

Detailed explanations can be found at https://www.sigmasociety.net/escalasqi . Here I will give a brief explanation: rIQ is the value that the IQ would have converted from the true rarity. This is not IQ measured on IQ tests or hrIQts. The measured IQ is the pIQ, whose distribution is non-Gaussian, the distribution has a dense tail, so the pIQ scores are more abundant than predicted based on the normality assumption of the distribution. This has nothing to do with the standard deviation being larger. The standard deviation is the same. The shape of the distribution is different, concentrating more cases in the right tail and less in the central region. In regions close to the central tendency, pIQ is almost equal to rIQ and remains so until about 130. From then on, pIQ becomes greater than rIQ. Some examples:

rIQ 100 is equivalent to pIQ 100.00

rIQ 130 is equivalent to pIQ 130.87

rIQ 150 is equivalent to pIQ 156.59

rIQ 180 is equivalent to pIQ 204.93

(A complete table is available on the Sigma Test Extended page)

The difference between pIQ and rIQ increases as rIQ increases, because the proportion at which the actual tail density becomes greater than the theoretical density increases as the IQ moves away from the mean.

When comparing estimated IQs based on rarity with IQs measured in tests, it is critical to put both on the same scale. For example, let’s say Newton is considered the smartest person in history and let’s say the number of people ever born is 100 billion. Then Newton’s IQ estimated based on rarity and based on the assumption that the distribution of scores is normal would be rIQ=207.3 (σ=16, G). But the actual distribution of scores is not normal, so you cannot compare that 207.3 with a score of 207 measured in a test, because they are on different scales. Both may have the same standard deviation (16 in this case), but the shape of the distribution is different and this cannot be neglected because the distortion produced is gigantic.

Newton’s rIQ would be 207.3 but his pIQ would be 261.8. To repeat: both scores have a standard deviation of 16, both rIQ and pIQ. This process should not be confused with changing scales with different standard deviations. The standard deviations are the same, but the shape of the curve is different. I’m repeating this several times because I’ve seen people confuse this just a paragraph after it’s been cleared up.

This adjustment is necessary to correct the distortions of the norms and to allow the correct calculation of rarities from the scores measured in the tests, or the inverse process of calculating the IQ from the rarity level.

Thus, the person with the highest rIQ (σ=16 G) in a population of 7.9 billion has rIQ 201.2, which is equivalent to pIQ (σ=16 T) 247.8. The scores 201.2 (σ=16 G) and 247.8 (σ=16 T) are equivalent, as 0 ^oC and 32 ^oF. The use of the term rIQ is equivalent to the use of the term IQ (σ=16 G), while the use of the term pIQ is equivalent to the use of the term (σ=16 T). I can also eventually use rIQ (σ=16 G) or pIQ (σ=16 T).

So tests can (and do) produce scores above 200 with a standard deviation of 15 or 16, but the correct calculation of rarity levels or percentiles should not be performed the way it has been done for decades. The percentile and rarity calculations are wrong, as I’ve demonstrated since my 2000 papers on this. I’m not referring to tests with inflated standards. Of course, this problem becomes more serious when the norms are inflated, but even when the norms have been calculated properly, as in the cases of the Mega Test or Titan Test norm, both the Hoeflin version and the Grady Towers version both provide incorrect values for the percentiles. The IQ scores are very close to the “correct” values, which would be the values adjusted to a well-standardized range scale. The problem is not with the measured IQs, but with the percentiles calculated based on the incorrect assumption that these scores are normally distributed. This topic will be analyzed again at other times, in more detail, when the topics covered require it. For now, this introduction should be enough to clear up much of the confusion that occurs with the indiscriminate use of the term “IQ”, without making the correct distinction between pIQ and rIQ.

When Chris Harding was registered in the 1966 Guinness Book with an IQ of 197, based on his Stanford-Binet results, this was a relatively primary and serious error because it incurs all 3 problematic items I cited above: SB does not include questions difficult enough to correctly measure above 135; the cognitive processes required in the solutions are not appropriate for IQs above 150; the calculated rarity level is incorrect.

In 1966, the world population was 3.41 billion people, and the theoretical level of rarity for scores 197, assuming the distribution of scores was a Gaussian with a mean of 100 and a standard deviation of 16, was 1 in 1.49 billion. So it seemed plausible that a person with that score could be proclaimed the smartest person in the world, or at least the person with the highest IQ in the world. However, a correct analysis of the situation reveals that the SB score of 197 does not indicate a rarity level of 1 in 1,490,000,000, but 1 in 870,000 (about 2000 times more abundant). Also, the variable measured at the rarity level of 1 in 870,000 is not intelligence. At this juncture, the most that could be said on the basis of a SB score of 197 is that the person showed consistent evidence of having an intellectual level above 135 IQ, and as their nominal score was well above 135, there is a good chance that their The correct IQ is greater than 150, perhaps greater than 160, but it would be necessary to prescribe a complementary exam, with more difficult questions and with appropriate construct validity, to investigate the real intellectual level of this person, since scores above 135 are outside the range at which the test is able to measure correctly.

In the following years, several other people began to emerge claiming the same record, with scores of 196-197. This continued until 1978, when the situation worsened, first with Kim Ung-Yong scoring 210, then Marilyn vos Savant scoring 230, corrected to 228, then corrected to 218, and finally Keith Raniere , in 1989, scoring 242. All based on clinical tests that are not suitable for correctly measuring above 135.

A similar problem happened to Langan in the Mega Test. The difficulty level of the Mega Test questions is suitable for correctly measuring up to about pIQ 194, equivalent to about rIQ 177, which corresponds to a rarity level of 1 in 1,340,000. This is the realistic rarity level corresponding to the Mega Test ceiling. In 2000 I had calculated a ceiling of pIQ 186 for the Mega Test, equivalent to rIQ 169, hence a rarity level of 1 in 124,000, but I was basing it on the sample of 520 tests available on Miyaguchi’s website. However, this sample is not representative of the set of more than 4,000 people examined with the Mega Test. This sample is stratified by 10 out of 10 (10 people with each IQ when possible). That is why there is a concentration of high scores above the “correct”, causing the difficulty of the items, especially the most difficult items (which is determined by the proportion between errors and hits) to end up being lower than the correct one, since there are more people with higher scores, there will be a higher percentage of hits than if the entire sample had been considered. Another factor is that even considering all the more than 4,000 people evaluated by the Mega Test, there is a self-selection that produces a higher concentration of people with high scores than that observed among the general population. With these two complementary adjustments, I redid my calculations for this standard and arrived at the numbers I cited above.

Therefore, with a raw score of 47/48, obtained by Langan on his second attempt, the corresponding rIQ is 176, equivalent to pIQ 192, that is, a rarity level of approximately 1 in 983,000. The actual rarity level of Mega Society is around 1 in 62,000 and Prometheus 1 in 8,000. In the cases of ISPE, TNS, etc., as they are in a range where the distortions are smaller, the true rarity is also closer to the theoretical rarity. 1 in 600. And in the case of Intertel and Mensa, they are practically unaffected. The theoretical percentile 98.04% for pIQ 133 score is equivalent to rIQ 131.8, therefore percentile 97.66%.

There are two other points I would like to comment on in this introductory text, before proceeding: on the meaning of “intelligence” and on the meaning of “certificate”, but the text has become too long and it is perhaps better to remove it, as well as other parts of some answers. Anyway, I’ve saved the full text in a separate file, in case it has any additional use or to be used on another occasion.

Having made these clarifications, we can now begin the answers.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?

Hindemburg Melão Jr.: I’m not very interested in stories.

Jacobsen: Did these stories help give a sense of an extended self or a sense of family legacy?

Melão Jr.: My grandparents were very poor, my father only studied until the second year of elementary school (2nd year). He was exceptionally intelligent, creative, had hypermnesia and a wide range of intellectual and kinesthetic talents. This allowed him to lift himself out of extreme poverty and provide a satisfying environment for his children, but not much else. My parents’ legacy is almost exclusively genetic.

Jacobsen: What was the family background, eg geography, culture, language and religion or lack thereof?

Melão Jr.: My maternal great-grandfather was a native Indian of Brazil, my paternal great-grandfather was Portuguese. My family was Catholic at the time I was born, but later they converted to Kardecism, preserving some Catholic habits. I became an atheist at approximately 11 years old, then an agnostic at 17 and a deist at 27. I was interested in the Bahá’í Faith for some time, but did not participate in any activities. I am writing a book dealing with Science and Religion, in which I cover some of these topics in more detail.

Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and teenager?

Melão Jr.: It was reasonably quiet, I had no problems with bullying that could be associated with discrimination on cognitive grounds. I was bullied for other reasons, because I had my eyebrows together, but nothing that caused me great embarrassment, even because I had been practicing martial arts since I was 7 years old, so if I thought they were crossing the line, I reacted in a different way. energetically and that kept them from bothering me again

My problems were with some teachers more than colleagues, because I had the incorrect view that teachers couldn’t make mistakes in their discipline, but in the real world it’s very different from that. Virtually every teacher made several mistakes every day, and I used to point out the most serious mistakes. Most of them reacted positively to it, some were grateful for the corrections and revised it immediately, but others did not accept this type of correction, especially when it came from a 7 or 8 year old. A remarkable episode occurred in a Geography class, when I was 9 years old, and the teacher asked the students to calculate the size of the Brazilian coast. When I started to perform the task, I realized that it didn’t make sense, because the measurement would depend on the level of detail of the map, so there was no possible answer. So I explained the problem to her, but she didn’t understand my explanation. She thought I was referring to the map being on a different scale than its actual size. So I explained again, but it didn’t help, she still didn’t understand, got angry and ended up acting oppressive, ordering me to shut up, and continued to “teach” incorrectly. It was a very unpleasant episode. Usually the errors that I identified were errors of the professors, but in this case it was much more serious, because it was an institutionalized error and accepted as if it was correct by the “authorities” in that discipline, it was wrong in the book and probably in all other books, being incorrectly taught to all students. In fact, this remains wrong to this day, 40 years later, in virtually every source on the subject, including Wikipedia, Encyclopedia Britannica, IBGE, Cia World Factbook, US Bureau of Labor Statistics, etc. The problem is not that the measurement number is wrong. The problem is that the question does not make sense because there is no “length” of the coastline, there is no possible answer with dimension 1, because the perimeter has a dimension greater than 1 and less than 2. Although it was unpleasant, it was also a problem. event that I remember with pride, for having deduced one of the fundamentals of Fractal Geometry, impromptu, at the age of 9.

Jacobsen: What are some of the certifications, qualifications and professional training you have obtained?

Melão Jr.: The primary purpose of certifications should be to certify that a certain person or entity fulfills requirements that would not be easily verifiable by a person from the general population. For example, an uneducated person would find it difficult to correctly assess whether a doctor is capable of treating their health, or to decide whether it would be better to receive treatment from an allopathic method or from a healer. That is why there are regulatory bodies, made up of experienced and supposedly competent specialists, which establish norms that theoretically should be necessary and sufficient to distinguish between qualified and unqualified professionals, protecting the less educated population against the provision of unsatisfactory or even unsatisfactory services and products. harmful. This is nice in theory, but in practice it doesn’t work so well, and the certification industry ends up serving other purposes, including market reserve, nepotism, the cult of vanity and egolatry.

Certificates often do not fulfill the function for which they were created, either approving insufficiently skilled people/entities , or failing to approve overqualified people. For this reason, it would be more important and fairer to examine actual achievements, competences and merits, rather than examining certifications that would recognize these merits, because merits have intrinsic value, while certifications are mere appearances that they sometimes try to represent. the merits, but they don’t always get it right.

There is even a large industry for trading fraudulent certificates, and little enforcement over it. The American Biographical Institute (ABI) is famous for selling worthless certifications, and has been operating since 1967. There are many similar bodies that specialize in printing beautiful certificates, promoting certification ceremonies, and so on. Usually people who consume these products are naive victims, but it is also possible that some people buy these certificates knowing what they mean (or don’t mean).

Wikipedia has the following description for the ABI:

“The American Biographical Institute (ABI) was a paid-inclusion vanity biographical reference directory publisher based in Raleigh, North Carolina which had been publishing biographies since 1967. It generated revenue from sales of fraudulent certificates and books. Each year the company awarded hundreds of “Man of the Year” or “Woman of the Year” awards at between $195 and $295 each.”

Source: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/American_Biographical_Institute

There are currently several PO Box universities handing out Ph.D. Like water. I watched some statements from people who bought these titles, the vast majority of these people really believed they had some value and were excited, happy and proud to receive the title. But maybe not everyone is naive and some understand that these titles don’t represent something real, but use it for obscure purposes. There is a member of mensa brasil who has more than 50 academic titles from a PO Box university, founded in 2021, but on the “institution” website he claims to have been founded in 2006. I find it funny, and at the same time sad, that journalists who publish the articles about this do not suspect that a 40-year-old person, who only had 1 B.Sc. by 2020, it suddenly had more than 50 academic degrees in 2022, including several Ph.Ds. and postdocs. In addition to the certificates purchased, this person also claims that TNS is the most exclusive high-IQ society in the world, he uses his IQ with a standard deviation of 24 to compare with a fictitious “IQ” of 160 attributed to Einstein, among other things, and journalists publish everything without checking.

There are also people who buy these certificates, knowing they are worthless, with no intention of making dishonest use, perhaps as a table decoration or something. For example, Chris Harding is a customer of ABI, he has acquired several titles from that company, as he declares in his profile on the OlympIQ Society. Harding has some real merits, because even though the SB doesn’t correctly rate above 140, it is recognized that this test assesses some sort of skill mixed with intelligence, and few people achieve Harding’s score on this exam. So while some certificates are purchased from him, others are based on real merit and issued by serious institutions, such as those related to his IQ records and his affiliations to high-IQ societies. However, even reputable certificates, which try to represent true merits, often attest to something that is not a good representation of reality. As I mentioned at the beginning, the SB score of 197 or 196 could not be interpreted the way it was, and the official reports and certificates issued are saying something that represents a collective belief, but very different from concrete reality.

Harding is very smart, but not based on the score he got in the SB, but based on his various opinions on different subjects. His real merits are in his essence, in his actions, in his thoughts, not in pieces of paper.

From the moment a person channels his thoughts and actions to produce something concrete, he begins to share his essence with the world, disseminating knowledge and wisdom, or disseminating futility and misinformation, depending on the quality of what he shares. And the perception that other people have of what she shared will depend not only on the quality of what she externalized, but also on the sensitivity and insight of the person receiving the information. If a brilliant person disseminates knowledge of a very high level among a very futile audience, the value of that knowledge will not be recognized and he will have no certifications, no awards, nor any recognition, while other people who are disseminating vulgar and shallow knowledge, compatible with the public that receives it and issues the certifications, that person will be acclaimed and glorified.

People are not rewarded or certified because their achievements are great, but because their achievements are perceived as great by the members of the committees responsible for the approval of awards and certifications. In addition, there are a number of other political, social, racial, etc. biases that interfere with the decisions of committee members, making certifications and awards even more inconsistent with the objective they should have.

This effect occurs, for example, in some Cooijmans tests, where the test does not measure IQ, but rather how similar the person’s IQ is compared to the Cooijmans IQ. If the person has the same IQ as Cooijmans, he will have a maximum score. If she has an IQ much higher or much lower than Cooijmans’ IQ, her score will be low. In the question about IQ tests, I comment in more detail on this problem.

I will cite a few striking examples, some quite well known, but they are worth recalling. I believe that one of the most tragic and striking is that of Galileo, who instead of being rewarded for his remarkable contributions to the understanding of the Universe, he was severely punished. In fact, his daughter Celeste ended up being punished in his place. In more recent times, one of the cases that I find very sad is that of George Zweig, who developed his Theory of Aces at the same time that Murray Gell-Mann developed the Theory of Quarks. Both were essentially the same, however the journal to which Zweig submitted his paper refused to publish it, while Gell-Mann’s paper won him the Nobel Prize in Physics. There are at least 45 known cases of controversial Nobel prizes, of people who received undeserving or deserved it but did not. The world’s most respected award is desecrated by dozens of injustices, perhaps hundreds if you consider the ones that have not been discovered. Even Einstein is one of the biggest victims, since he deserved to have received 5 Nobel prizes, however he received only 1, for racial, xenophobic, Nazi reasons etc.

I believe that now I can answer this question by dividing it into two parts:

Awards and certifications.
Merits so far not recognized.

I have few certificates. When I was young, I was in the habit of putting trophies and medals in Chess, Martial Arts, Arts Education, etc. on a shelf, but during one of the changes of address, one of my trophies broke. Initially I was sad, because they were important to me. But as I thought more about the “disaster,” I realized that they really didn’t matter. What really mattered were the merits that led me to win those awards, as well as some merits that were not awarded. There were also cases in which I had no merit, but had been awarded due to some fateful fate. That doesn’t mean I’m not a vain person. I am, but I’ve learned that most of the time you get nothing or almost nothing for something valuable, while other times you get more than what’s fair for something of little or even worthless. Unfortunately, the world rewards appearances much more than essence.

One of my few certificates is the world record holder for longest announced mate in simultaneous blind chess, recorded in the 1998 Guinness Book. Perhaps some people are not familiar with the meaning of “blind chess” and “announced mate ”. This video helps to understand the dynamics of a blind simultaneous: https://youtu.be/LUo89Cl9FPY . It’s an old, low quality video, but to exemplify the mechanism of the event, I think it’s appropriate:

I will give a brief description: in a simultaneous, one person (simultanist) plays at the same time against several opponents (simultaneously), each of which has its own board. It is different from a consultation game, where several players can consult each other on a single board and decide on the best move by voting. In a simulcast, each simulcast has its own board and each game follows its own course.

In this case, as it is a blind simultaneous, the simultanist does not have visual access to any of the boards, nor to the pieces, nor to the summaries, nor to any type of record of moves or positions. At no time may the simultanist look at any of the boards, nor request any information that helps him to remember the positions of the pieces, nor any specific piece, nor that helps him to remember the order of the moves, nor any other type of information that can in some way help with the matches. The position of each of the pieces on each of the boards is registered exclusively in the simultanist’s memory and these positions are mentally updated with each move. In addition, at each move the simultanist needs to make the calculations of the variants and sub-variants necessary to make his decisions about the move to be executed, taking care not to confuse the memories of the calculated variants with the memories of the variants actually played, among others. care.

The game develops as follows: the simultanist stands with his back to the boards and communicates his moves to an assistant (speaker), who executes each simultanist move on the respective board. Then, the simultaneous player on that board executes his answer on the board and the speaker verbally communicates to the simultaneous player which move was executed by that simultaneous player. Then the speaker moves to the next board, where again the simultaneous player declares his move and this is executed on that board by the speaker, etc.

There are easier (or less difficult) versions, in which the player can blindly access a list with all the moves noted, as in Melody Amber’s tournaments, in which, in addition to being individual games, instead of simultaneous , competitors can also see an empty board, which facilitates calculations and reduces the risk of forgetting the position of a piece. But under the strictest rules, as in my 1997 Guinness record, it was not allowed to have access to the move history, nor to see an empty board, nor any other similar kind of aid. It is equivalent to being blindfolded all the time, from start to finish of the event.

That record set in 1997 was a blind simultaneous to 9 boards, in one of which I announced mate in 12 moves. The average rating of my opponents was estimated at around 1400. I got 7 wins, 1 draw and 1 loss.

Previous record holders were: Joseph Henry Blackburne (mate in 8 moves in a 10-board blind match in the year 1877), Samuel Rosenthal (mate in 8 moves in a 4-board blind match in the year 1885) and Garry Kasparov (mate in 8 moves in a blind simultaneous to 8 boards, in the year 1985). There was also an event in 1899, in which Harry Nelson Pillsbury announced mate at 8 in a 10-board blind simultaneous, but there was a miscount. Following the sequence dictated by Pillsbury, mate took place in 7 moves.

In the case of Kasparov, there are some details that need to be clarified: he played a blind simul against the 8 best computers of the time, including the world champion Mephisto Amsterdam 68000 RISC 12MHz. The average rating of these machines was about 1500 and the best reached 1800. The best computer in the world in 1985 was precisely the Mephisto Amsterdam, whose rating published by the manufacturer was 2265, but later measured by SSDF in 1827 (based on 1020 matches). In the match against Mephisto Amsterdam, Kasparov played a beautiful combination with an 8-moves mate streak, but there is no record of him having announced the mate. In any case, as he sacrificed a Rook and two pieces at the start of the combination, it is clear that he correctly calculated the entire sequence.

In 2005, Rede Globo did a report for the program “Fantástico” celebrating 100 years of IQ tests, and I was nominated as the person with the highest IQ in Brazil, at the level of 1 in 200 million. This is an example of “recognition” that I’m not sure was correctly assigned. In the question about IQ, I discuss this subject in more detail.

Recently, my friend Domagoj Kutle honored me with a kind invitation to publish in his excellent magazine Deus VULT, and requested that I also send a short biography. My girlfriend Tamara kindly helped me craft this material, including some of my accomplishments. I think this would fit here, so I’ll paste the text:

Melao mini-bio, by Tamara Rodrigues:

Hindemburg Melao Jr. was born in Brazil, in a family with few resources, and only attended school until the 11th grade, having learned almost completely as self-taught.

In 1998 he was registered in the Guinness Book as the holder of the world record for longest announced checkmate in blindfold simultaneous chess games.

Between 2006 and 2010 he developed an artificial intelligence system to trade in the Financial Market; in 2015, his friend and partner Joao A.L.J. incorporated a hedge fund to use this system and started to be registered in fund rankings (BarclayHedge, IASG and Preqin), winning 21 international high performance awards.

In 2007, Melao solved a problem that had been unsatisfactorily solved for 22 years, by creating an index to measure performance adjusted at risk that was more accurate, more predictive and conceptually better founded than the traditional indexes of William Sharpe (Nobel prize 1990) and Franco Modigliani (Nobel 1985).

In 2003 he solved a 160+ year old problem by proposing a new formula for calculating BMI, superior to the traditional one and superior to the formula proposed in 2013 by Nick Trefethen, Chief of the Dept. of Numerical Analysis at the University of Oxford, Leslie Fox Prize(1985), FRS prize, (2005), IMA Gold Medal (2010). Trefethen’s 2013 formula is an incomplete version of Melao’s 2003 formula.

In 2000 Melao developed the first method for standardization of intelligence tests that produces scores in scale of ratio and in 2003 he applied this method in the Sigma Test norm (he also calculated new norms for Mega and Titan tests using the same method), thereby solving a problem of Psychometry that exists more than 90 years ago and was pointed by Thurstone and Gardner as a central question of Psychometry more than 45 years ago.

In 2002 Melao found the best solution to a problem that has existed for more than 520 years and had been attacked for more than 65 years, the Shannon Number, which was only matched in 2014 by Stefan Steinerberger, professor of mathematics at Yale University.

In 2015 Melao showed that the method recommended by the Nobel Prize in Economics Harry Markowitz, for portfolio optimization, has some flaws, and proposed some improvements that make this method more efficient and safer.

In 2021 Melao pointed out flaws in the recommendation of the 2003 Nobel Prize in Economics, Clive Granger, regarding the use of the concept of cointegration, and presented a more adequate solution to the same problem.

In 2022, Melao solved a problem that had been open for 16 years, in which he established a method for calculating chess ratings based on the quality of the moves. Also presented an improved version of the Elo system, applying both methods to calculate the ratings of more than 100,000 players between years 1475 and 2021, the results were published in a book, along with the description of the two methods.

At 9 years old Melao deduced one of the fundamentals of Fractal Geometry and at 13 he developed a method to calculate logarithms. At age 19 he developed a method for calculating factorials of decimal numbers without using Calculus.

Also at the age of 19 (1991) he developed an invisibility machine project, which in 1993 he inscribe in a contest of ficction Literature (although the project is consistent with Scientific Method), but did not win. In 2003 Susumu Tachi, Emeritus Professor at the University of Tokyo and guest Professor at MIT, created (independently) a simplified version of this project and built a prototype.

In 2020 Hindemburg presented a study showing that Jupiter’s Great Red Spot cannot be 350+ years old, as was believed. The correct age is around 144 years old.

In 2000 Melao had a chess theoretical novelty elected one of the 10 most important in the world by the Sahovski Informator jury, the world champion Anand was one of the judges and Anand’s vote was that this novelty should be the 8th most important.

In 2004 Baran Yonter, founder of Pars Society (IQ>180, σ=16), estimated that Melao IQ should be above 200 (σ=16).

In 2005 the production of the program “Fantástico”, from Globo (second-largest commercial TV network in the world), made a special report on intelligence, celebrating the centenary of the creation of IQ tests, and Melao was nominated as the person with the highest IQ in Brazil, with a rarity level of 1 in 200 million.

In 2009 Melao was nominated by Albert Frank to participate in a John Hallenborg project with people whose IQ is at the rarity level above 1 in 1 million.

In 2000 Melao updated and extended his “Alpha Tests” that he had created in 1991, added new questions, and created the Sigma Test.

In 2022 he extended the Sigma Test by creating the extended version.

Melao is author of more than 1700 articles on Science, Statistics, Psychometrics, Econometrics, Chess, Mathematics, Astronomy, Physics, Cognitive Science, Ethics, Philosophy of Science, History of Science, Education etc.

Detailed bio of Melao (documents, videos, interviews, articles, reports etc.) at: https://www.sigmasociety.net/hm

Although I practiced Martial Arts for several years (maybe ~11 years if you add up all active periods), I didn’t get any certification, because the time was distributed among many different disciplines and I didn’t reach black belt in any of them. But I reached a reasonable technical level. For handguns, maybe I’m in the 99.9% percentile and in the specific case of nunchaku, maybe 99.999%. This is a video from 2016, I was already kind of old and rusty https://youtu.be/jCw–5H34x4 . On the same channel there are also videos with other weapons (sword, tonfa, kama, sam-tien-kuan, etc.).

In 2020 I was invited to a group of the 26 best planetary astrophotographers in Brazil. Although there is no certificate for it, I was very happy because it is one of my favorite hobbies. I would like to take this opportunity to thank my friend Vinícius Martins, who taught me almost everything I know about planetary image processing, I believe that in a short time he will be one of the 5 best astrophotographers in the world, he combines 3 fundamental extraordinary talent, an immense love for this activity and a deep knowledge that is constantly expanded and updated.

Among the certifications that I do not have, one of the most interesting is the CFA, granted to investment managers. It is interesting because between 2006 and 2010 I developed an artificial intelligence system to operate in the Financial Market that between 2015 and 2020, when it was used by a European fund, won 21 international high performance awards in the Barclay’s Hedge, Preqin and IASG rankings, being also the second best investment system in the world between 2011 and 2016. However, I was banned by the CVM from providing management services because I do not have the CFA certificate. In 2014, a petition was made to request that the CVM (Brazilian Capital Markets Regulator) issue me a certificate on an extraordinary basis. The claim was based on the wording of CVM Instruction 306 and on the fact that my system had accumulated more than double the profit of the fund that occupied the first place (ahead of 282 other funds, all managed by certified managers) in the ranking of the InfoMoney, the largest ranking of funds in Brazil. Among the people who signed the petition on my behalf were several university professors, several professional managers, and several members of high-IQ societies, including Dany Provost of Giga Society. However, the claim was not accepted and I still do not have this certificate. By the way, the two most famous managers in the world, Warren Buffett and George Soros, also don’t have a manager certificate, so I’m in good company. Buffett solved this problem by incorporating a company that buys other companies, rather than running a fund. Soros solved the problem by putting his friend Jimmy Rogers as gestures (Jimmy had the necessary certification), I solved the problem by trading licenses to use my system, with a volume limit of application for each license and a renewal period.

Among the certifications I don’t have, I can also include CNH, although I drive outside the law (I’m practically a gangster). I stopped going to school in the 5th grade, then I went back a few times, due to pressure from my parents. I would come back, I would continue enrolled for a few months, I would run out of patience, I would stop again, my parents would pressure me to come back, I would come back again, etc. I finished high school (11th grade) and entered the Physics faculty, but I didn’t like the course and I stopped for good after 2 months. In the first week of class, I reviewed the Physics I textbook and pointed out over 200 errors, sent my comments to the author, with an introductory note trying to be tactful so he wouldn’t be offended, but he never responded. I also pointed out two serious conceptual errors in the methods used in the Physics laboratory, which should impact the results of the experiments; one of them, on the crumpled paper balls, is the same “experiment” carried out in the Mathematics Department at Yale University, where they also make the same mistake. In that case, Prof. Dr. Paulo Reginaldo Pascholati had an honorable conduct, he received my criticisms with humility, he did some experiments to investigate whether the error I indicated was justified, he found that I was right and, in the next class, he publicly admitted the error. I found his conduct exemplary in this regard, however the handout was not corrected and they continued to do the experiment incorrectly.

Anyway, I decided that university was a waste of time and it would be more productive to study on my own, but it’s not that simple, and this decision proved questionable on some occasions. The distance from the academic career has some positive aspects, some negative ones. One of the positive aspects is that I can select my own curriculum, go at my own pace, and delve as deep into each topic as I want. One of the negative aspects is that it becomes more difficult to have access to satisfactory bibliography and even more difficult to publish in indexed journals. In doing so, I practically ostracized myself.

Therefore, certificates are useful, but it is important to understand the limitations and distortions they may present, so as not to run the risk of dealing with them in a bureaucratic way, to the point of being placed above the real capacity verified empirically on a continuous basis. Certificates reflect the opinions of people or institutions that are often not qualified enough to make correct assessments on the merits and to decide impartially. In the example of the CFA, certifications are literally distributed based on excessively condescending criteria, which are far from sufficient to select qualified people to exercise the role of manager, which is why more than 95% of certified managers generate losses for their clients. Perhaps this effect is more noticeable in the Capital Markets than in any other activity, but it also frequently occurs in Journalism, Advertising, Administration, etc., where some people without training in these disciplines may eventually be more qualified than certified people, but for protect the less competent, laws are created that prevent companies from hiring the most competent, using certificates as an instrument of discrimination and apology for mediocrity.

I wrote an extended version of this answer, in which I discuss some failures in the education system in Brazil and in the world, justifying why I moved away from academic life. I also point out and analyze the mistakes made by Richard Lynn in his study of IQs in different countries and explain why it would not be correct to try to justify the educational problem in Brazil based on the supposedly low average IQ of the population, as well as revise the estimate for the IQ average for some countries, including Equatorial Guinea, Israel and Brazil. The text was 10 A4 pages, so I thought it best to put it as an appendix.

Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests for you?

Melão Jr.: the most important attribute of living beings is intelligence. Without intelligence there would be no Ethics, Laws, Science or Art. In order to correctly delegate the most important tasks to the most qualified people, it is necessary to correctly identify and rank people according to their abilities. That is why correctly measuring intelligence and using the results as a criterion for assigning positions and tasks, according to the level of competence, is extremely important, but unfortunately this is not what happens. There are two big problems:

The first is that the world is dominated by nepotism;
The second is that there are no appropriate intelligence tests to correctly measure at the highest levels.

In the late 19th century, the first tests by Galton and Cattell failed to satisfactorily measure intelligence, but it was an interesting attempt. The hypothesis that the speed of reflexes, visual acuity, auditory acuity, etc. could be relevant indicative of the intellectual level proved to be inadequate. In 1904, Binet and Otis managed to solve this problem by using questions that required the combined use of various cognitive skills – rather than trying to measure primary aptitudes, as Galton did – but Binet’s tests only measured correctly up to about 140. Terman’s attempts in 1921 to use Binet’s tests to select future geniuses failed. Among the 1528 children selected with an IQ above 135 (more than 70 with an IQ above 177), none won a Nobel or any similar prize, while two of the unselected children won Nobel prizes. The test worked very well until about 130, the selected children published more books, more articles, had a higher average income than the children in the other group, but at the higher levels, the test failed and missed some of the brightest children. The results of this study had an extremely deleterious effect, undermining the credibility of IQ tests in the eyes of the general public and in the eyes of many intellectual exponents from scientific, technological, cultural and educational fields, so it would be important to clarify the limits of until point these tests can measure correctly, so that unrealistic expectations are not created and so that they are not applied incorrectly outside these limits.

In 1973, Kevin Langdon created the LAIT (Langdon Adult Intelligence Test) and with that he managed to raise the difficulty level to close to 170 and the construct validity to 150; In 1985, Ronald Hoeflin took another important step forward with the Mega Test, raising the difficulty level to about pIQ 190 and construct validity to 170, and these contributions broadened the horizons of application of intelligence tests, which previously worked well until the approximate level of 1 in 100, while the new tests started working up to 1 in 100,000. On the other hand, from the 1990s onwards, some fantasy tests began to appear with nominal ceilings that reached 250, although the real ceiling of difficulty did not reach 180 and the ceiling of construct validity was around 150, as the ISIS Test by Paul Cooijmans. Some of these fantasy tests keep popping up to this day, and this exacerbates the prejudice many people have against IQ tests, because if a person has refined critical thinking and a skeptical attitude, he realizes that there are inconsistencies in results like Feynman’s ( 123) and Rosner (193, 196, 198 etc.). Both are very intelligent, and the problems that Feynman solved are more difficult than the problems that Rosner solved, which could be interpreted as indicating that Feynman was more intelligent, so how is it possible for a serious standardized system of evaluation to assign 190+ to Rosner and 123 for Feynman? Something is obviously not right about this, and people often don’t identify exactly where the error is, so they generally conclude that all IQ tests don’t work, or they don’t even know that there is more than one type of IQ test. IQ That’s why clarifying the range in which each type of test works contributes to combating this type of prejudice. If Feynman’s true IQ, based on the difficulty, complexity, and depth of the problems he solved on quantum electrodynamics, superfluids, etc. were put on the same scale that Rosner’s IQ is represented, Feynman’s correct IQ would be close to 235. And to explain this number above 200, I would first have to show that the distribution of scores is not Gaussian, etc. etc. Then that apparent initial inconsistency would disappear and everything would become clearer and more logical. The same is true for Einstein’s fictitious IQ of 160, whose correct value, if placed on the same scale as the scores measured by the tests, would be close to 250.

In 2000, the Sigma Test brought solutions to the 3 problems cited in the introductory text, with the main focus on construct validity, using questions based on real-world problems that require a combination of convergent and divergent thinking at different levels of difficulty, complexity and depth, consistent with the IQ levels to be measured. More recently, the Sigma Test Extended raised the ceiling on difficulty to about pIQ 225 and construct validity to about 210. However, in a population of 7.9 billion, the smartest adult person in the world must have an rIQ of around 210. 201, equivalent to about pIQ 245, thus far outside the limits that STE can measure. Nevertheless, for some of the smartest 100 or 200 people alive, STE could provide reliable measures of real intelligence, with good construct validity at this level, in addition to offering a stimulating intellectual challenge. This would fix some urban legends disseminated in various sources, such as that the average IQ of Nobel laureates in Science is “only” 154. With the use of a properly standardized test, with an appropriate difficulty level and good construct validity, the The average IQ of Nobel Prize winners in Science should be between 170 and 190. With the use of appropriate tests it is possible to correctly reposition the scores, both up and down. This would also overcome some prejudices against IQ tests, because one of the reasons for rejection is precisely due to the bizarre results for Feynman (123), Fischer (123*), Kasparov (123, 135), Shockley (<135), Alvarez ( <135), Feynman’s sister (124), etc., because that takes away the credibility of the tests, as these scores are far more likely to be wrong than these people having IQs below the 1 in a thousand level, when in fact they should be above 1 in 1 million (and Feynman close to 1 in 1 billion). When we can show that tests are able to measure correctly even at very high levels and provide realistic results, consistent with the achievements of these people in real-world problems, we can restore credibility to intelligence tests as serious and reliable instruments capable of to perform one of the most important functions, which is precisely to make early predictions of genius. [*Although many sources mention an IQ of 187, 181, or 180 for Fischer, his 1958 reports show a score of 123]

So while there are no tests capable of correctly measuring at the level needed to pinpoint the smartest person alive, or rank the 10 smartest, there has been substantial progress since Binet’s first tests, and if Terman were alive today and developing the same study from 1921, but starting in 2000, and if he used the STE instead of the SB, most likely the smartest children would all (or almost all) be selected in his group, and the subsequent results would have been confirmatory even at the highest levels, corroborating the thesis he defended, that it is possible to predict genius early, but not with the tests that existed at that time. The thesis itself was correct, as was Leonardo Da Vinci’s helicopter, but the technology still needed to advance a little further for the thesis to have the necessary subsidies to be tested properly.

Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?

Melão Jr.: I find it difficult to determine this precisely. The first time I was examined in a clinic, I was 3 years old, but at 6 months of age I was able to speak reasonably fluently, so there was some earlier evidence.

Jacobsen: When you think about the ways in which the geniuses of the past were mocked, vilified and condemned, if not killed, or praised, flattered, plagiarized and revered, what seems to be the reason for the extreme reactions and treatment of geniuses? Many alive today seem camera-shy – many, not all.

Melão Jr.: I don’t think it’s a problem of the past. It is still present in many primitive cultures, such as in Brazil and in several African countries. The vast majority of the population adopts a posture of hostility, envy and boycott not only against geniuses, but against anyone who may be having any kind of success. Recently my girlfriend showed me a video of Ozires Silva, who was Minister of Infrastructure and president of Petrobras. He comments that during a dinner attended by some members of the Nobel committee (link to the video: https://youtu.be/m3u-E5XdzZ4 ) he asked why they thought Brazil had no Nobel laureates, since several Latin American countries with lower population and lower GDP even had more than one Nobel Prize. One of the committee members commented “you Brazilians are hero destroyers”. Unfortunately, this is a fact that is still present in our daily lives.

At the time I got to know high IQ communities, 1999, some famous names were William James Sidis, Marilyn vos Savant, Chris Langan, Rick Rosner, Grady Towers etc. Langan was a security guard at a nightclub, Rosner was a nudist model and also worked for a time as a security guard, Grady Towers was a security guard at a park and died a tragic and untimely death in 2000. Sidis spent the last decades of his life in underemployment and collecting license plates. Marilyn was a columnist for a magazine and got a reasonable standard of living out of it, as well as good prestige and recognition outside of high-IQ communities, as well as a lot of hateful envious. With the exception of Marilyn, the other people I mentioned earned minimum wage and still spent part of their time without a job, while many people are hired to fill positions that they are not even qualified, earning small fortunes as well as prestige and recognition.

This situation is very sad. Although Langan was not the smartest man in the Americas, as he claimed in 2000, or in world history, as he began to claim some time later, he is arguably a much smarter and more competent person than 99% of Ph. Ds. in any area and more than 99.9% of the CEOs of companies. He may not have had such a vast culture and expertise needed to solve major scientific problems, but he certainly would have given better administrative and political solutions than any president the US has ever had. I don’t know if he would be the best president, because being a great president isn’t just about solving problems. He would also need to have sensitivity, empathy, kindness, honesty and other attributes. But generally many people have these attributes at the required level. What they usually lack is precisely intelligence. I’m not saying that Langan or Rosner should be presidents. But, pondering the positives and negatives, I would bet on them as better presidents than the average of recent presidents.

Persecution and oppression can sometimes happen silently, and this is often even worse because it is harder to detect and combat. How is it possible that a person with Langan’s intellectual potential was not discovered by a large company that hired him for a millionaire salary so that he would solve internal problems in a way that generates more profit for the company than other less competent people working in the same role? There are grotesque errors in this. The vast majority of companies are contaminated by mobs of incompetents and cheats, who instead of hiring and promoting based on merit, do almost exactly the opposite, because they feel threatened by those who are more competent than themselves. This is a complete disaster not only for the companies they work for, but for the entire harmony of civilization. In Norway, Sweden, Holland, Finland, Switzerland, Denmark, etc. these problems are very rare, but in brazil this is a constant that sinks the country. In the USA, the problem may not be as serious as it is in Brazil, but when we look at the cases of Langan and Rosner, it is clear that there are serious flaws in the performance of the headhunters, failing to hire some of the most qualified people in the country, who started to most of their lives in sub-professional activities. I have cited the examples of Langan and Rosner, but the same is true of a large number of people with far above average IQs, who are working in incompatible activities, with incomes far below what they deserve, producing less than they should, while people very less capable are in high positions, making absurd mistakes and sinking companies or even sinking entire nations. My girlfriend is an environmental engineer and exceptionally smart, she worked at a large company where she solved problems that saved tens of thousands of dollars monthly by cutting waste, as well as contributing to reducing pollution. One of the solutions involving the replacement of a pipeline generated savings of a few million. If she were placed in a higher position, where her performance had greater reach, it could save the company tens or hundreds of millions. However, she was invited to participate in a corruption scheme, she refused, the person who made the invitation was afraid that she would denounce them and fired her.

In “The Republic”, Plato commented on the importance of kings being philosophers and philosophers being kings. This seems to me the most natural, substituting “philosophers” for “competent” which is usually almost synonymous with “intelligent”. And replacing “kings” with an equivalent modern meaning, which can be CEOs of big companies, mayors, governors and presidents. In the US there are several mechanisms to discover and mentor talented children and young people, there are several specialized programs. According to Eunice Maria Lima Soriano de Alencar, in the 1970s there were over 1200 educational programs for gifted children in the US. How is it possible that these programs “missed” Langan and Rosner? How could a respected entity like Hollingworth Institute not discover them? It’s not possible that they didn’t excel at school. In Brazil I would think this is normal, Brazil lets almost all the great talents go down the drain. But in the US I find it surprising that this has happened. There are records that Langan scored perfect on the SAT and received scholarships at two universities, but it appears that he lost his scholarship because he was late one day because his car broke down. This is pretty ridiculous. Even if he missed every class, he would probably learn more and better than 99% of his classmates who were present in every class. The universities did not award scholarships in recognition of his genius, but as a “handout”, with restrictive conditions to withdraw the handout if he did not meet certain criteria.

This waste of great talent is one of the main reasons that leads a country to ruin. China is catching up and surpassing the US in large part because China has invested more seriously and more heavily in special education for gifted children, while the US is making gross mistakes like this, letting great minds like Langan, Rosner, Towers are wasted on jobs like nightclub or park security, while less-skilled people lead big companies, govern cities and states.

Nepotism is not an exclusively family phenomenon. It is much broader, leading to the placement of underqualified people in positions that should be filled by others with more merit. There is no optimization in the delegation of positions, responsibilities, tasks, incentives, awards, etc. And this lack of optimization is obviously penalized. Competitors who optimize this best take the lead.

In Brazil the situation is much more serious, because there are no such programs. There were a few isolated initiatives, which reached a few dozen children, but they did not last long.

Intelligence tests are extremely important to be used in these talent discovery processes. Although the tests have several flaws, it is better that they are applied as far as possible, with errors and patches, than if they were not applied and this calamity was perpetuated. Some of the tech giants create their own tests to select their collaborators, usually these tests are not as good as the hrIQts, but at least they demonstrate that they understand the need for it. Although they are patching up the problem badly, at least they are trying to do something to identify young talents and engage them in relevant projects, in which they can contribute to the development of Science, Technology and the common good, so these companies do better than the government in this regard.

Jacobsen: Who seems like the greatest geniuses in history to you?

Melão Jr.: Leonardo, Newton, Aristotle, Gauss, Ramanujan, Archimedes, Euler and Einstein.

It is difficult to judge the cases of Hawking, Galois, Faraday, Al-Hazen and others, because Hawking had to face extreme hardships, it is difficult to know what the magnitude of his legacy would have been had he not fallen ill . It is possible that Hawking is one of the 5 or 10 smartest people in history, although his effective work is not one of the 100 most expressive, as it is not a fair representation of his potential, as he unfortunately did not have the opportunity to “compete” in equal conditions with other great geniuses. Galois was born in a very privileged situation culturally, intellectually and economically, but unfortunately he died very young. This does not mean that he would have produced much more if he had lived to be 90 or 100, because looking at the lives of other great mathematicians and scientists, most of the most important work they did was before the age of 25, eventually between 25 and 30. In addition, there are many cases of people who produced almost everything they could before the age of 20, then showed no advance or accumulation of production (Paul Morphy, for example, or Arthur Rubin). So Galois’ remarkable precocity does not necessarily indicate that he would have produced more than Gauss or Euler had he lived much longer. But even if he had not reached Euler’s level, it is likely that he would have left a monumental legacy. Faraday – like Edison, Leonardo and me – did not receive a formal education, which could be interpreted as a disadvantage, although perhaps it is not. Academic life can get in the way, in many cases, it is difficult to judge with certainty. To find out whether people with IQs above a certain level would have an advantage or a disadvantage studying as self-taught, it would be necessary to carry out experiments with several pairs of twins with an IQ in the desired range, in which one of each pair of twins would be forced to pursue a career in academia and education. another forced not to follow. There would be several problems in running such an experiment, because twins are rare and twins with IQs above a certain level may simply not be an example case, and the study would require a sample of at least a few dozen. Another problem is the ethical issue, of forcing a person to attend the unit and forcing another not to attend. This is especially serious in the case of monozygotic twins, because both would likely have similar preferences, and one of them would have to be “sacrificed” in this situation, forced to do something different than they would like.

At the time I got to know the high-IQ communities, there was a lot of talk about Sidis as the greatest genius in history, a genius wronged and misunderstood. There’s some truth to that, but there’s also a lot of exaggeration and distortion. Sidis is an unusual case and very difficult to judge, because his story is mixed with legends and fantasies. My first contact with Sidis’ “story” was through an article by Grady Towers in 1999, which he later modified in 2000. I now know that there was a lot of incorrect information in that text, but at the time I believed what was there, and I even considered the possibility that Sidis really was the smartest person in history. I now see Sidis as a victim of his parents, a forced prodigy with maybe 180 to 200 IQ, who could have been a good researcher and led a pleasant, productive life, but has been turned into a circus attraction. The 250-300 IQ that for years has been attributed to him appears to have been his sister’s invention, the 54 languages he was claimed to speak have been reduced to 52, then 40, then 26, and currently it appears he is considered to have perhaps spoken of fact 15 to 20 languages. The legend about him being able to learn 1 language in 1 day seems to be simply false. He didn’t get a Ph.D. Cum Laude at Harvard at 16, but rather a B.Sc., which is still an impressive accomplishment, but not quite. About 12% of Yale students graduate Cum Laude, Magna Cum Laude or Summa Cum Laude. In some years (like 1988) these percentages can increase quite a lot, reaching more than 30%. I don’t know the percentages at Harvard, but I suppose it’s not that different. So it is indeed expressive, but not as impressive as would be expected by someone with a supposed 250-300 IQ.

His sister’s tendency to exaggerate just about everything ends up increasing skepticism about which claims about him are true. The fact is that he did not leave a scientific or mathematical legacy that justifies the overestimation that is usually made of him. His ideas about black holes were preceded by more than 100 years by Laplace and Michell, his ideas about Evolution had already been better developed by Darwin and Wallace, in fact, Sidis’ approach is much more superficial than Darwin and Wallace’s. , being more similar to that of Anaximander and Aristotle. However, the question remains about the level of intellectual production that he could have reached if he had not withdrawn from academic life, or even withdrawn from academic life, but producing Science and Mathematics outside the university.

In terms of precocity, Gauss, Galois, Neumann and Pascal seem to me more remarkable than Sidis, not least because Gauss was a natural prodigy, while Sidis was a mixture of natural prodigy and forced prodigy. Galois, Pascal, Neumann were also natural and forced prodigies, but not as forced as Sidis. This pressure to which Sidis was subjected may have harmed him and provoked the outcome that this telenovela ended up having. I find it difficult to assess.

So if I had been asked this question in 2000, maybe I would have done a less critical and more superficial analysis and singled out Sidis as the greatest genius. Currently I would have doubts even if he would have a very high score in the hrIQts, maybe he would reach 190 in some tests, but in others he would not exceed 180. As far as intellectual production is concerned, the records do not show anything so extraordinary.

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a deeply intelligent person?

Melão Jr.: The concept of “genius” is usually used to indicate exceptional ability in different scientific, artistic, sports, cultural areas, etc. In this context, one of the main differences would be the level of specificity, as the genius could indicate a remarkable talent in any area of activity (Music, Football, Ballet, etc.), including activities in which high-level intelligence is not required. In contrast to this, the profoundly intelligent person would have his talent exclusively linked to activities in which notability requires a very high intellectual level (physics, mathematics, literature, chess, etc.).

But this concept is inappropriate, in my opinion, because with the development of machines that outperform the best humans in different modalities, it becomes important not to mix “smart” machines with other machines. It might seem acceptable to say that Usain Bolt is a track and field genius, but it would be strange to say that a Bugatti Chiron is a genius, even though what the Chiron does exceptionally is the same as Usain Bolt does. It is therefore necessary to determine objective classification criteria that are equally applicable to all organic and inorganic entities, without discrimination, a criterion that works well and does not produce bizarre classifications. It would be unreasonable to say “ah, Chiron is a car, so criteria don’t apply to it”. That would be shallow and incorrect discrimination, because in a few decades there will be cars capable of talking about philosophy and demonstrating mathematical theorems, including hybrids that are part human and part cars, and if one of the criteria for being considered genius is “it can’t be a car”, there would be a serious inconsistency. A serious and fair criterion needs to be well planned, it cannot be a naive guess that does not contemplate possible exceptions.

Talents for intellectual modalities, when they reach a certain level of excellence (something like 5 standard deviations above average) can be considered “geniuses”, but for activities in which the intellectual level does not play an important role (Boxing, Football, Athletics etc. ), I believe that the correct term should be chosen more carefully, to avoid that non-intellectual machines are incorrectly classified as “geniuses” (a fast car being classified as a “genius” because it is fast seems to me to be an etymological error, but if this car is could perform intellectual tasks, the situation would change). In some circumstances, machines need to be recognized as geniuses, otherwise there will be serious inconsistencies in the syntax of the language, based solely on prejudice against machines. AlphaZero or MuZero, for example, in my opinion they (especially MuZero) are in a “grey zone” that is difficult to assess. MuZero can learn by himself to play Chess, Go, Shogui, Atari games, and reach very high level, superior to the best humans in the world in some of these games, which are recognized as intellectual games. So an attempt to adjust the criteria post facto, with the sole purpose of disqualifying MuZero as a genius, would seem to me to be a sign of unfair discrimination. Even because, the next generations of MuZero tend to present better and better what we understand as “general intelligence”, and at some point there will be no way to avoid recognizing that some machines also need to be classified as “intelligent”.

The question is whether MuZero would be better classified as “idiot savant” or “genius”. In my opinion, “genius” would be better, because idiot savants are usually not very creative and don’t excel in activities that require deep, sophisticated problem solving. They are very good at memorizing and repeating, whether mental calculations or playing songs, but I don’t know of any idiot savant who has excelled as a chess player or as a scientist. Perhaps it would be possible to reformulate the meanings of genius and idiot savant so that MuZero would be better classified as a savant, without compromising the essence of these meanings. A proper classification could not “push” Bobby Fischer or Kasparov into the savants group, for example. The classification would need to be careful, so as not to create inconsistencies with the sole objective of removing MuZero from the group of geniuses, nor presenting other types of arbitrariness.

In some other pursuits where there is no need for exceptional intellect, with an IQ of close to 120 being sufficient together with exceptional talent in a particular area, I believe the term “genius” should not be applicable. Mike Tyson or Usain Bolt don’t need much more than 120 IQ, and some vehicles without any trace of intelligence, who don’t think, can beat Bolt in the sport he excelled in, so excellence in that sport perhaps shouldn’t be seen as ” genius”.

In some cases it is more difficult to assess whether or not the term “genius” is applicable. Artificial Intelligence Systems like AIWA, which specializes in composing music, and does it at a very high level, in my view, shouldn’t be classified as “genius” either, in which case great human composers shouldn’t be classified as ” geniuses” based solely on their talent for songwriting. If this talent for songwriting was accompanied by an intellectual level commensurate with the intellectual criterion of genius, then the classification as “genius” would apply on that basis. The same would be true for boxers, farmers or professionals in any field, who would not be classified as “geniuses” based on their talents for their most prominent activities, but on their intelligence.

In this sense, there could be latent geniuses and effective geniuses. The latent genius would be in the intellectual potential to produce relevant contributions to expand the horizons of knowledge, revolutionize scientific paradigms, etc. While the effective genius would be the one who concretely does these things. A profoundly intelligent person, who has not made outstanding contributions, could be a latent genius, having the constant opportunity to become an effective genius, from the moment he uses his potential for scientific development, or for innovations in mathematics or science. in some important field of knowledge.

Some people consider the fundamental difference between a genius and a profoundly intelligent person to be creativity, but creativity is one of the components of intelligence. People often confuse logical reasoning (which is also one of the components of intelligence) with intelligence itself. But intelligent behavior is a broad combination of many cognitive processes, including memory and creativity.

The difference between “genius” and “deeply intelligent” is more quantitative and is associated with the proportions in which certain attributes are present. Creativity appears in the genius as a fundamental element, but not because the genius is creative and the profoundly intelligent person is not (both are), or even because the genius is always more creative (although he usually is). In the set of attributes, considering logical reasoning, creativity, working memory, long-term memory, etc., the genius has and uses this set of latent traits in solving novel problems with greater efficiency. As creativity is usually one of the most important requirements for this, it ends up being natural to associate genius with creativity.

Jacobsen: Is deep intelligence necessary for genius?

Melão Jr.: For the concept of genius I described, yes. In the previous answer I ended up answering this one.

Jacobsen: What were some work experiences and jobs you’ve had?

Melão Jr.: Since 2006 I have been working on the development of artificial intelligence systems to operate in the Financial Market. I am currently interested in solving the problem of prolonging life indefinitely, preserving memory and identity in inorganic devices that have a proper communication interface with the brain, resuscitating people, restoring severely damaged bodies, and other minor problems that are subsets of these and pre -requirements for these.

Jacobsen: Why pursue this particular work path?

Melão Jr.: The development of automatic systems to operate in the Financial Market is an intellectually challenging activity and offers a reasonably fair monetary reward, although the absence of a business network imposes many obstacles. The level of difficulty, complexity and depth of the problems that need to be solved to make consistent long-term profits from long-short trading is extremely high. There are some easy ways to earn 3% a year or a little more by practicing Index Buy & Hold or Blue Chips, where the gain is small but very easy. But if one wants to strive to earn profits close to 30% a year or above, the challenge is extraordinarily difficult and few people in the world actually manage to do so. As part of that work, I’ve made some interesting advances in Econometrics and Risk Management. In 2007, I solved a problem that had been unsatisfactorily resolved for 22 years by creating an index to measure risk-adjusted performance that was more accurate, more predictive, and conceptually better informed than traditional William Sharpe Nobel 1990) and Franco Modigliani (Nobel 1985). In 2015 I showed that the method recommended by the Nobel Prize in Economics Harry Markowitz, for portfolio optimization, has some flaws, and I proposed some improvements that make this method more efficient and safe. In 2021, I pointed out flaws in the recommendation of the 2003 Nobel Prize in Economics, Clive Granger, regarding the use of the concept of cointegration, and presented a more adequate solution for the same problem. Among other contributions in processes of optimization of genetic algorithms, ranking and selection of genotypes, pattern recognition, etc.

Jacobsen: What are some of the most important aspects of the gifted and genius idea? These myths that permeate the cultures of the world. What are these myths? What truths dispel them?

Melão Jr.: There seem to be different myths among different intellectual strata. For the majority of the population, with an IQ below 130, it seems that they think of the genius as a crazy, reclusive, antisocial, physically fragile person, and every physical and psychological flaw they can imagine, as a morbid need to push down. the person for not tolerating the fact that he excels at something and has little advantage in almost everything. Many movies, books and magazines try to reinforce this stereotype. But there are other incorrect ideas that are pervasive in other IQ bands. At the 130 to 180 level, for example, there seems to be an overestimation of results on IQ tests, without a correct understanding of the limits of the extent to which these tests produce accurate and reliable scores.

Another myth is related to the rarity level. People who have no concept of Psychometrics (almost all outside of high IQ societies) think that gifted people are very rare, something like 1 in a million or even rarer. They are also generally unaware of the difference between “gifted” and “genius”, including some who think gifted is smarter than genius.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the concept of God or the idea of gods and philosophy, theology and religion?

Melão Jr.: My family was Catholic. I became an atheist at age 11 after studying some religions. In a transition process that lasted a few years between the ages of 17 and 25, I ended up becoming agnostic. I became interested in the Bahá’í Faith at the age of 27 and at 28 I became a deist and wrote an article in which I present serious scientific arguments for the existence of God. I say “serious arguments” because all the pseudoscientific arguments I know of on the subject are desperate attempts to “prove” an a priori belief. It is different from an impartial analysis that leads to a conclusion that had not served as an initial motivation. I’m still a deist, I even founded my own religion, and I’m writing a book on the subject.

Jacobsen: How much does science influence your worldview?

Melão Jr.: Science is the only way we know of through which adequate models can be developed to represent sentient reality, functional models, capable of making generalizations and predictions, in which the results obtained are reasonably in accordance with the predictions, without predictions depend on luck for chance hits. Science is essential in the process of acquiring knowledge and technological development. On the other hand, it is important to understand the limitations of Science, as a body of disciplines that offers us a valuable method, but that is not immune to failures. The great differential of Science is not in the knowledge it produces, but in the method that allows it to correct itself and to do this constantly, updating itself, refining itself, expanding itself, etc., so that all the Scientific knowledge, even if it is fundamentally incorrect, has some practical use and works reasonably well within the limits set by Measurement Theory. Ptolemy’s cosmological model, for example, even though it was fundamentally wrong, allowed for very accurate predictions. Sometimes scientific theories may not structurally accurately represent natural phenomena, but even if the theoretical explanations are not the most correct, they work. Knowledge obtained through other means, such as philosophy, religion or popular culture, is generally less likely to “work”, and even when they do work, it is difficult to regulate the parameters that determine their functioning, due to the absence of an underlying theory that be organized by a mathematical model.

Jacobsen: What were some of the tests performed and scores obtained (with standard deviations) for you?

Melão Jr.: There is no simple answer to this question. In fact, among all the questions in this interview, this is perhaps the most difficult, because in addition to giving a correct answer, I need to try to be diplomatic so I don’t seem too arrogant. My girlfriend has asked me dozens of times what my IQ is, Tor has asked me this at least 5 times, and I usually shy away from the subject because it takes time to explain everything. But I’ll answer it here and when other people ask me again, I’ll provide the link to that answer, including because in previous questions and in the introductory text I commented a little about clinical trials, hrIQts, estimates and comparisons. With that, I believe it will be possible to express my opinion on this topic in a reasonably complete and accurate way in less than 50 pages, taking advantage of the previous answers as prerequisites.

I was examined for the first time at 3 years of age, and I even got to the tests for 9 years, because they were not above 9 years old for children who could not read. I don’t know what the tests are called, but the standard deviation was probably 24. There are several complex points that need to be examined about this, because the evolution of intelligence as a function of age is not linear, as in Stern’s simplified formula, the deviation default is not 24 in all age groups under 16, most very young children examined are forced prodigies that parents tried to teach a lot since they were born but it was not like that in my case, my father went out to work before When I woke up and came back after I was asleep, my mom worked most of the day, so none of them even had time to spend much time with me, let alone train me like a forced prodigy. Other points to consider are that intellectual development does not end at age 16 (nor 17 or 18 or 19), nor does it reach the limit at a fixed age for all people, nor does it remain stable when reaching a certain age. Therefore the interpretation that the mental age of 9 years to 3 years corresponds to an IQ ratio of 300 is grossly incorrect and naive. Even after converting the scale with standard deviation from 24 to 16, reaching 233, it is still incorrect. The evolution curve of intelligence as a function of age also varies from one person to another. Therefore, it is not reasonable to use tests applied in childhood as a basis to try to estimate what the adult IQ will be. There are several cases of IQs measured in childhood that prove to be very far from correct in adulthood, although some may “get it right”, as in the case of Terrence Tao, who had an IQ measured at 230 and, luckily, really had an IQ. his is close to it. In my case, it is also possible that the measured IQ came close to the correct value “luckily”, but the tests used, the method used, etc. are not appropriate.

Another detail is that I don’t know if I would continue to solve typical tasks for children over 10 years old, but it is possible that I would, but the precocity in solving typical tasks for older children says almost nothing, or says very little, about the intellectual level that will be reached in adulthood, because the skills measured do not provide useful information for this type of prognosis. The type of skill that would indicate a very high intellectual level (200+) in adulthood is not related to the same type of task that an 8, 9 or 10 year old, or even 20 year old child could perform, but with the problem solving that indicated traits of creativity and deep thinking for that age. The event in Geography class at age 9, for example, was a much more relevant indicator than the test result at age 3, not only because at age 9 he had already reached greater maturity and was closer to the potential he would have as an adult. , but also, and mainly, because the type of problem involved was more closely related to the cognitive processes needed by genius adults.

As I mentioned in the introductory text, in other answers, in some articles and in some forums, IQ tests and hrIQts have problems in construct validity, errors in the calculation of the norm, and inadequacy of the level of difficulty. I already had a very bad experience with Paul Cooijmans in 2001 and I don’t plan on wasting time on it again. Cooijmans’ Space, Time & Hyperspace (STH) proposed measuring IQ up to 207 (σ=16), although the real difficulty of the hardest questions on this test is not much higher than 170. But that’s not the main problem. STH contains several primary errors that completely invalidate the test and the norm, although many people consider it to be one of the “best” hrIQts. In 2001 I wrote to Cooijmans about this and pointed out one such mistake to him, but he refused to talk about it and did not admit his mistake. I don’t have the patience to deal with people who act like him. I’ll describe exactly what the problem is using an example:

The general wording for all STH questions was as follows:

a : b :: c : d

Meaning: “a” is to “b” as “c” is to “d”.

Given “a, b, c” determine “d”.

The statement, along with the test, can be accessed at https://web.archive.org/web/20040812113534/http://www.gliasociety.org/

Here’s a print of what’s in the link above:

Question 10 is:

The general statement says that there is a relationship from the 1st figure to the 2nd figure that must be discovered and then that same relationship must be applied to the 3rd figure to produce the 4th figure. This is the only general statement for all questions in this test, presented at the beginning of the test, and it works like this in questions 1 through 9, but not so in question 10 or 16 other questions out of the 28 that make up this test.

He wanted question 10 to discover the relationship of the 1st figure to the 3rd figure and then that same relationship to be applied to the 2nd figure to produce the 4th figure! But at no time did he ask for this in the statement. What the statement asks for is exactly what I described above. If the person answers exactly what the utterance is asking for, the person loses 1 point!

There are several other issues in STH with this same basic logic error. In this surreal situation, if the person hits all 28 questions exactly in accordance with what the test statement asks for, the person will receive only 11 correct answers and score 135 instead of 205 by the current norm, or 140 instead of 207 by the norm. old.

As Cooijmans did not agree to talk about it, I talked (at the time) with 3 other people able to give an opinion: Petri Widsten, Albert Frank and Guilherme Marques dos Santos Silva.

Petri Widsten scored highest on the Sigma Test, STH and was champion in several logic and IQ contests, including http://www.worldiqchallenge.com/rankings.html , where Petri scored nearly twice the raw score of Rick Rosner. Petri quickly agreed with me on this, even to the detriment of his own answers, because he had answered what he thought Cooijmans would like to receive as an answer, not what would be the most correct answer. Every time I think about this subject, I get stressed, because Cooijmans is a very stubborn person. I don’t think Cooijmans is stupid or dishonest; I think he’s smart and he tries to do what he believes is right, but his stubbornness is greater than his intelligence.

Albert Frank was a professor of logic and mathematics at the University of Brussels, a veteran champion of chess in Belgium. Albert also agreed with me and made some comments on Formal Logic that categorize the type of mistake made by Cooijmans.

Guilherme Marques dos Santos Silva is a member of Sigma V and was champion in the IQ contest “Ludomind International Contest IV”, he also agreed with me and “gave up” to finish doing the STH after he saw this absurd error. He said there were few questions left to finish, but due to the serious bias in the correction, he had no interest in proceeding.

In addition to the people I talked to back then, I also recently talked to Tianxi Yu about this kind of issue. Yu scores 196, σ=15 on Death Numbers, which is considered a serious test with a deflated norm. He commented that he has already found bugs in several tests, and he has posted an extensive and detailed public critique of this in a group, citing the various types of bugs that bother him. There are several points where I disagree with Yu’s opinions, but in terms of testing, our opinions are very similar.

As soon as I had my first contact with high IQ societies and discovered Miyaguchi’s website (1999), I became interested in taking the Power Test, which I consider one of the best in terms of construct validity and with an adequate level of difficulty. At the time I was 27 years old and with a different opinion than I do now, I had three goals with the Power Test: one was fun, another was to beat Rick Rosner’s IQ~193 record, and the third was to get into Mega Society. At that time, the standard calculated by Garth Zietsman for the Power Test was used, with a ceiling of 197, but before I finished solving all the questions, the Power Test was no longer accepted in Mega Society and the ceiling was “revised” to 180. So I completely lost interest.

Garth Zietsman is a competent statistician and the norm he calculated , probably using Item Response Theory, is consistent and very well grounded. If the same items used in Mega, Titan, and Ultra were in Power, then the individual difficulties of those items were maintained and determined the norm for Power. So when the Power Test ceiling was changed to 180, it was a mistake. The more than 4,000 applications of Meta, Titan and Ultra, which served as the basis for the norm calculated by Zietsman, were simply disregarded, and a new norm was calculated based on a few dozen people. The correct procedure would be to add the new data (about the results of each item answered by the people examined with the Power) to the item bank that contained the Mega, Titan and Ultra questions, recalibrate the parameters of difficulty, discriminating power and casual accuracy (if applicable) of each item, then review the norms of the 4 Hoeflin tests that shared those items. Thus, the difficulty levels would be preserved equally in all tests, maintaining a unified scale.

But the way it was done, the Power norm was skewed downwards relative to the other three Hoeflin tests. To better clarify the problem, I will cite an example: in the Power Test the question about the Moebius tape is being treated statistically as if it had parameter b = +2.81, that is, 50% of people with IQ 145 (σ=16) should get this issue right. However, the same question about the Moebius tape, when applied in another of the Hoeflin tests, is being treated statistically as if it had a parameter b = 3.88, that is, 50% of people with IQ 162 (σ=16) must get this right. question. This is a serious inconsistency, because either the question has a difficulty of 2.81 on all tests in which it is used, or 3.88 on all tests. The question cannot have difficulty 3.88 on some tests and 2.81 on others. Zietsman’s norming is consistent in this regard, so the Power roof produces a norm on the same scale as the Mega, Titan, and Ultra norms.

One of the reasons that caused this reduction in the Power ceiling is because some people had already taken one or more of the other Hoeflin tests in which the Power items were present, so the probability of hitting those items on the second try was higher, increasing even more on the third and fourth attempts. But the correct way to deal with this would be to adjust all the norms of all the tests that contained those items, depending on the number of times those items had already been solved by the person examined, with norms customized for each person, or based on how many and which of the three other tests the person had already solved (an equation for this could easily be determined using cluster analysis, for example).

It could also simply look at the scores of people who had taken more than one test (or the same test more than once) and the effect that had on the probability of getting each repeated item right on the second, third, or fourth test that contained the same item. While this global adjustment to the itemset was not as accurate and refined as analyzing this effect on each individual item, as I suggested above, this would already help to improve the norms across all 4 tests, rather than distorting the Power norm in relative to everyone else.

Anyway, there is a worrying amount of errors in the hrIQts, both in the calculations of the norms and in the answers accepted as correct, among other problems. That’s why Sigma Test has always adopted a policy of transparency, being open to debates, if the person had a score above 180 in any test and they believed that some of their answers were right and they thought they received an incorrect evaluation, they could contest the correction of a question she chose. If she was right, she could challenge the correction of one more question, and so on, until her challenge was unfounded. The Moon Test and Sigma Test Extended have a similar transparency policy, but the minimum score on other tests to have this right to challenge is 190 on both the Moon Test and Sigma Test Extended. This allows reviewing any errors, as well as allowing the person being examined the opportunity to defend what they believe is right, in the event that they feel they deserved more points than they received. In my opinion, all tests should adopt a similar policy.

If there were any tests with appropriate characteristics, I would consider doing another test, even though I am older and dumber. Basically it should be a test with good construct validity at the highest levels, appropriate ceiling, and appropriate difficulty. In addition, it should have a formal “grievance” system that allows contesting the result. Without that, I see no reason to waste time on these things. An hrIQt can easily take up to 50 hours and if it’s a really hard test, with the right level of difficulty, it can take over 500 hours. It is time that could be spent on more interesting and productive activities. So unless the test brings together a number of notable virtues that justify the effort, I wouldn’t be interested. In fact, there is a test that, in my opinion, meets these requirements, but I cannot solve it because I am the author. This reminds me of a topic that was discussed a few weeks ago in a group:

In fact, some problems I’ve already solved are more difficult than the more difficult problems in Sigma Test Extended. So there are some useful clues in that.

Some people have already estimated my IQ and made some comparisons. In 2004, Pars Society founder (IQ>180), Baran Yonter, estimated my IQ to be over 200 (σ=16, G), this is equivalent to over 240 pIQ (σ=16, T). I thought he was being nice, but in 2005, when I was nominated for the production of the Globo TV show “Fantástico” as the smartest person in Brazil, I discovered that other people had similar opinions to Baran about me. I was flattered by the nominations, but I don’t know if I’m really the smartest person in Brazil and I told the journalist that, but he insisted, and as I had been the most nominated, and also for the sake of vanity, I ended up accepting to do the article, whose video is available on my page and my channel.

It is necessary to make an important caveat regarding the correct determination of the most intelligent person in Brazil, because there is a Brazilian who won a Fields medal (Artur Ávila) and there is a Brazilian who made fundamental contributions to the development of paraconsistent logics (Newton da Costa), both are very smart people, but with different profiles than mine, so it would be difficult to make a proper comparison to know for sure who is the smartest in Brazil, because each of them is deeply specialized in a very specific area, while my talents and achievements span a wide variety of different areas. As a result of greater specialization, the level of depth they have reached is greater, but this greater depth does not reflect greater depth of reasoning, but greater depth of knowledge. Also, I only studied until the 11th grade, while they did PhDs and postdocs with excellent advisors, which puts me in a “running with legs tied” situation compared to people who run on horseback. The people who worked on the same problems I worked on were equipped with more sophisticated mathematical tools, access to much more powerful computers, access to a vast, high-quality bibliography, received much more prolonged, intensive formal training under the guidance of experienced scientists, while all my “training” was self-administered, with virtually no bibliographic resources and modest computational resources. I often had to create my own statistical tools before using them to solve problems, and later I found that there were ready-made tools for the same purposes. During the development of my system to operate in the Financial Market, situations like this were repeated many times.

A detail that is important to clarify: I commented (in the appendix) that the average quality of education in Brazil is terrible, so what would be my disadvantage for not having attended this terrible environment? And the answer is simple: many of the best Brazilian academics will study at the best research centers and universities in Europe, the USA, Canada, Australia, Japan, etc. Also, there are a few really good researchers in Brazil, and when a young talent receives guidance from a first-rate researcher, it makes a huge difference. So there is a substantial advantage in Artur and Newton da Costa’s opportunities compared to my situation, because they had access to many more resources, in addition to the advantages in mentoring and training.

As for other people who have worked on the same problems as me, and I solved those problems before them or better than them or both, almost all of them are from other countries: Nick Trefethen is Head of Dep. in Numerical Calculus at Oxford University and collects some international Mathematics prizes (Leslie Fox Prize 1985, FRS Prize 2005, IMA Gold Medal 2010), Susumu Tachi is Professor Emeritus at the University of Tokyo and Guest Professor at MIT, Stefan Steinerberger is Professor of Mathematics at Yale, William Sharpe is a professor at the University of California and a Nobel Prize in Economics in 1990, Franco Modigliani is a Professor at the University of Rome and a Nobel Prize in Economics in 1985, Clive Granger was a professor at the University of Nottingham and a Nobel Prize in Economics in 2003, among others. So the people who worked on some of the problems that I solved constitute a “heavy competition”, in addition to having access to more resources, more advisors, etc. relevant before them, perhaps represents some merit to me, I have no false modesty in admitting it.

The fact is that the correct determination of the smartest person in a country is not something so simple, it is not a game of egos and vanities. There needs to be a real basis for this. For example, I think Petri Widsten has excellent chances of being the smartest person in Finland, not only because of his excellent result in the Sigma Test, but also because his doctoral thesis, besides being very innovative, was awarded as the best thesis. of the country in the 2002-2003 biennium and he won several logic contests. The aggregate of these results, and other minor details such as him being fluent in more than 10 languages, suggest a real intellectual level with rarity above 1 in 5 million, which is the population of Finland. However, there are other very smart people in Finland, like Rauno Lindström or Bengt Holmström. Although Finland is a culturally more homogeneous country, so that there is not as great a difference in opportunities as in my case, even so, the comparison is still difficult, so it would not be wise to categorically state that a certain person (Petri or Rauno or another) is the smartest in Finland. The most appropriate would be to assign a probability to each one. Petri would have around a 95% probability of being the smartest person in Finland, Maybe Rauno 2%, Bengt 1% and someone among other people 5 million people 2%. In the case of Brazil, my advantage would be much smaller than Petri’s in relation to the other strong candidates.

In 2005, friend Alexandre Prata Maluf, a member of Sigma V, Pars Society and OlympIQ Society, estimated that my IQ should be similar or slightly above that of Marilyn Vos Savant. I think he meant it as a compliment, because Marilyn is an icon in high-IQ societies, but I didn’t like the comparison, because it’s not a fair comparison. The real-world problems I’ve solved are much more difficult than the problems she’s solved. I don’t exclude the possibility that she might have an IQ similar to mine, but she would need to prove it with concrete results, solving problems with a compatible degree of difficulty.

I recently learned that in 2018, in a private group, my name had been mentioned in a post titled “Name the top 5 people (alive) with the highest measured IQs in the world today! Name, IQ and Test.” I found it surprising that I was quoted, because since 2006 I had been away from high IQ societies and only returned a few months ago, in February 2022, yet Rasmus Waldna from Sweden very kindly remembered me and suggested my name, and his nomination received more likes than the names of Terence Tao, Chris Hirata, Rick Rosner, Marilyn and Langan. The names of friends Tor and Iakovos were also indicated. I understand that it was an informal topic, and people’s positive reactions may have been influenced by factors extrinsic to intellectual capacity, some people may have liked it out of sympathy, for example, or because they like my hair, but I was still happy with the memory and recognition, and also happy to see some friends on this list.

In 2001, David Spencer compared me to Leonardo Da Vinci and Pascal. In 2016 my friend Joao Antonio LJ compared me to Newton and Galileo, and the way he wrote and the context in which it was said, I found it a touching and sincere compliment. In 2017, I was again compared to Leonardo (by Aurius). In 2020, Empiricus magazine published an article by Bruno Mérola on risk management, in which the author compared my Melao Index with the Sharpe index (1990 Nobel), and in the analysis he did, he presented facts and arguments demonstrating that my index is higher than the Sharpe index. In fact, my index is also superior to that of Modigliani (Nobel 1985), Sortino and all the others, but in the article he only mentioned the Sharpe index because it is the most used in the world, because it is more traditional and better known, and cited mine for being the most efficient. In 2021 I was compared to Feynman and again to Leonardo, in an interesting situation, where the person (Francisco) did a reasonably detailed analysis of the comparison to justify his opinion. In 2021, I was again cited as possibly the smartest person in Brazil by Luca Fujii, one of the greatest precocious talents in Brazilian Mathematics, but as he is still very young, he has not yet manifested all his intellectual brilliance and that is why he is not yet so famous, but it will be soon. Luca is a person with many moral virtues, as well as intellectual ones, just like Joao Antonio LJ, so I feel really honored that these people have high opinions about me, and also because I know they don’t say that just to please me, but based on deep criteria, very well-founded and well-considered criteria. Joao has read over 1000 of my articles, Luca has read my two books and has surely read hundreds of my articles. So, in addition to being exceptionally skilled, they were also knowledgeable about what they were talking about.

Anyway, I think the real world problems I’ve solved, the people who have tried to solve the same problems and the awards these people have won and other problems they’ve solved, the opinions of some exponents of high IQ societies about me maybe answer a little about my IQ, certainly more and better than a standardized test could tell.

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes any sense, even the most viable sense to you?

Melão Jr.: I know of no author who represents my views on any subject sufficiently accurately and completely. There are always details where disagreements occur. In my book on the existence of God, one of the chapters deals with Ethics, in which I set out my views on this. There are some articles in which I discuss issues related to Ethics, this is one of them: https://www.saturnov.org/liberdadeedireitos

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes any sense, even the most viable sense to you?

Melão Jr.: There is a Polish proverb that says “In capitalism, man betrays man. In socialism, the opposite occurs. In theory, almost all political systems try to be reasonably good, with different priorities, but each aiming, in its own way, at noble and lofty goals, although utopian and superficial in basic points, so when they are implemented in practice, it becomes clear that human vicissitudes corrupt any system, because theoretical systems do not make adequate predictions about how to deal with real humans. I believe that in the not too distant future, if we do not destroy each other by war, the political leadership of the planet will be “in the hands” of intelligent machines, and there will be a system much more logical and fair than any system that currently exists. It will be far from a perfect system, but it will be vastly superior to anything we know of, as these systems will be able to analyze much more complex and profound interactions of human relationships between large groups and how those relationships evolve over the long term in much the same way. that the best chess programs far surpass the quality of analysis of humans, “seeing” much more accurately and deeper and making more accurate predictions than any human. The problem is that there is a high risk that we will be enslaved by machines, or something, or there will be a symbiotic union between humans and machines, or parasitic, it is difficult to predict, it will depend on some decisions we make in the coming years and decades.

Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes any sense to you, even the most viable sense to you?

Melão Jr.: The theory of the multiverse is on the threshold between Physics and Metaphysics. The word “multiverse” is an inadequate construction, but the meaning is plausible and even probable.

Jacobsen: What comprehensive philosophical system of worldview makes any sense, even the most viable sense to you?

Melão Jr.: What I describe in the book I cited above, in which I present arguments that seem conclusive about the existence of God, and I address other philosophical and scientific topics.

Jacobsen: What gives you meaning in life?

Melão Jr.: I don’t think there needs to be something that gives meaning to life beyond itself. Life has an intrinsic meaning. But I can say that protecting my mother and providing the best possible for her was something that gave me joy. She passed away in 2016. I didn’t eat properly and didn’t sleep properly for a few months. I had already researched cryogenics and knew that this technology does not offer realistic prospects of bringing a person back to life, because the membranes of trillions of cells are ruptured in heat shock, leaving the cytoplasm to leak out, a process that is unlikely to be reversed. I started to think of a way to resuscitate her, but I find it very difficult that the resurrected person could have restored the exact same personality and memories, so it wouldn’t be the same person. If her memories and personality had been stored entirely on an HDD or SSD, or some device with similar properties, then perhaps it would be possible to restore the same person, in a genuine process of resuscitation. The joy of living was gone with her death. In 2018 I met my girlfriend Tamara who has been living with me ever since and I can say she has been my joy of living, my life would be very small and discolored if it wasn’t for her. It is an honor for the human species that there are people deeply committed to doing what is right and fair, like her, who elevate human dignity to a level close to perfection.

Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?

Melão Jr.: In deduction the meaning is attributed, ultimately, arbitrarily. One determines what a triangle is and that will be a triangle. In finite induction, meaning is inferred from the analysis of the amplitude of variation of properties observed in entities of the same class compared to the dispersion of the same properties observed in entities of different classes.

The evolution of the concept of “planet”, for example, illustrates well how this happens. The Greeks classified the Moon, Sun, Mercury, Venus, Mars, Jupiter and Saturn as planets. Not all Greeks, actually. Aristarchus, Seleucus, Ecphantus (assuming that Ecphantus actually existed) and Philolaus did not adopt the same criteria. With Copernicus, the Sun was no longer considered a planet, while the Earth was classified as a planet, because the criterion of the Greeks was that the planets moved. When Uranus was discovered in 1781, it also came to be classified as a planet, because its general properties fit this class of objects better, and the same happened when Ceres was discovered in 1801. However, shortly afterward, Pallas was discovered, Vesta, Juno and other objects with orbits very similar to those of Ceres, all much smaller than the other planets and sharing almost the same orbit. Within a few years there were more than 10 objects with these characteristics , which led to reconsidering whether the criteria used to classify planets were appropriate. Then came the concept of “planetoid” later modified to “asteroid” to include this class of objects. At the time Pluto (1930) was discovered, as it was far outside the asteroid zone and its size was originally estimated to be similar to that of Earth, it was classified as a planet. In a few years it was found to be much smaller than previously thought. The first estimates from 1931 assigned Pluto 13,100 km in diameter, then 6084.8 km, then 5760 km, then 3000 km, 2700 km, 2548 km, 2300 km, 2390 km and the latest data indicate about 2376.6 km . So, at the time it was discovered, it was plausible that it was classified as a “planet”, but when it was found that it was much smaller and less massive, the situation changed. This issue is discussed in more detail in my book on the subject. When other trans-Neptunian objects were discovered, it started to be considered that perhaps Pluto would be better classified as one of those objects, rather than being considered a planet. The terrestrial planets (Mercury, Venus, Earth and Mars) had a rocky surface, average density approximately between 4 and 5.5 times that of water, diameter approximately between 5,000 and 13,000 km, while Jovian planets (Jupiter, Saturn, Uranus, Neptune) they had a fluid “surface”, average density approximately between 0.7 and 1.7 times that of water, diameter approximately between 50,000 and 140,000 km. But Pluto was far outside these two groups, its density 1.9 was similar to that of the Jovians, but its size was smaller than that of the tellurics. It was not known if the surface was rocky, but in principle it was believed that it was. When Eris was discovered – whose mass is similar to Pluto and maybe a little larger – they finally decided to promote a debate about it and reconsider the criteria for classifying planets. In 2006, the IAU decided to create a new class of objects, the “dwarf planets”, and Pluto entered that category.

I skipped some important events, such as Galileo and Simons’ discovery of the 4 large satellites of Jupiter, which were initially considered “planets” because the concept of a “satellite” didn’t exist until Kepler suggested it. Galileo sometimes referred to these objects as “small stars”, as it was not really known what stars were, although Giordano Bruno already had a promising hunch.

The meaning of “planet” was and continues to be determined by comparison with other objects that show different levels of similarity. In cases where there are large numbers of objects to compare, such as the taxonomy of animals, classifications can be made at many hierarchical levels, with different levels of similarity, and meanings are assigned according to properties common to all elements. of the same class, while trying to select criteria that allow distinguishing from elements of other classes. In classifications of dogs and cats, for example, it is not useful to consider the fact that they have 2 eyes, a tail and a snout, because this does not help to distinguish one species from the other. Average size would help if the size spread were narrower, but as different dog breeds vary over a very wide range, this criterion wouldn’t help much either. In these cases, more subtle and specific criteria, such as facial morphology, tooth morphology and number of teeth, turn out to be more useful. The size of the snout can help, but the number of teeth has a similar meaning, as it is related to the size of the snout, with the advantage of being more objective and quantitative.

Anyway, these are the two main ways of determining meanings. One is arbitrary, it allows one to impose what characteristics the entity must have. The other tries to discover which characteristics are common to all entities of the same class and, at the same time, are different from the characteristics of entities of similar classes, in order to make it possible to distinguish between entities of one class or another. These meanings are often incomplete, uncertain and subject to revision as new discoveries are made about other entities whose characteristics are borderline in a given class, leading to broadening, narrowing or reconfiguring the criteria to include or exclude the new entity in one of the classes. known, or, more rarely, create a new class inaugurated by that entity.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in life after death? If yes, why and in what way? If not, why not?

Melão Jr.: The concept of “death” is a disconnection, which for now we don’t know how to reconnect, but soon it will be possible in different ways. This is one of the topics analyzed in more detail in my book. The concept of “soul” also needs to be examined in detail to answer this, and the size of the answer would be immense.

Jacobsen: What do you think of the mystery and transience of life?

Melão Jr.: I don’t think it’s transitory. It has been for now, but that should soon change.

Jacobsen: What is love to you?

Melão Jr.: It is a desperate attempt to invent a word to represent an indescribable feeling.

Appendix: Educational System in Brazil and Richard Lynn’s study on IQs in different countries

The education system is usually bad all over the world, but in Brazil it is much worse than the average of countries with similar GDPs. I estimate that Brazilian education is one of the worst in the world. University of Ulster Professor Emeritus Richard Lynn offers a simplistic explanation for this in his article “IQ and Wealth of Nations”. It does not deal with Education. It deals with Economics, but the argument he uses to justify differences in income would be equally (and better) applied to Education, as long as the argument is valid. But the argument starts from a false premise. There are many errors in Lynn’s work. The central idea he defends is right, but quantitatively he forces exaggerated results. The thesis he defends – that there are ethnic and regional differences – is correct, but the differences are not as big as he wants to make it out to be. According to Lynn, the average IQ in Equatorial Guinea is 56. If this were right, the country would be expected to be a large tribe of nomads, they would not have mastered the technique of producing fire, they would not have built plows, spears, etc. But there is an urban civilization there. In addition, people with an IQ below 60 have a hard time learning to read and write, even though they live in countries with extensive infrastructure and literacy incentives. If more than 91% of the population of Equatorial Guinea can read (assuming this information is not made up), even in an environment with less incentive to learn, it would be very difficult to explain how this population with an average IQ of 56 is predominantly literate. Lynn tries to spread his neo-Nazi beliefs and uses this scientific research to try to gain credibility for his views. The average IQ of Ashkenazi Jews is around 114, the highest average in the world, but Lynn was able to manipulate the data from her meta-analysis so that the average IQ for the state of Israel was 94.

In the case of Brazil, Lynn’s results indicated an average IQ of 87 and, in a more recent review, they indicate 83.38. If this were correct, it would be a good explanation for the low quality of Brazilian scientific production and the terrible quality of teaching. But the real problems that predominate in Brazil are a combination of student laziness, teacher laziness, low leveling in classes and bad “pedagogical” methodology.

A more serious analysis of the situation shows that the average Brazilian’s real IQ is not as low as Lynn’s studies suggest. Many people turn in IQ quizzes without answering, or they “guess” all the alternatives, or they answer some and “kick” the others.

In a post of mine on the profile of our friend Iakovos Koukas, I made a reasonably detailed comment about this, which I also reproduced in the IQ Olympiad group and reproduced here again:

There are indeed cognitive differences based on ethnicity, just as there are in relation to average height, average penis size, average concentration of melanin under the skin, etc., but the cognitive differences are much smaller than what he tries to “sell”.

On the one hand, there is the problem of naive egalism, defended by some pseudo-ideological groups, and this finds no support in the facts. At the opposite extreme, there are groups of people like Richard Lynn, Tatu Vanhanen and Charles Murray who try to exacerbate racial differences and use them to justify the misery of some peoples. Both the radical eugenicists and the radical egalitarians are wrong, but between one extreme and the other there are some truths.

Just as there are marked cognitive differences between species, there are differences between ethnicities, but less marked because the range of genetic variation within the same species is smaller. Pretending that these differences do not exist is a mistake, because the correct knowledge about the particularities of each ethnicity helps to make more accurate diagnoses of several diseases whose symptoms are not the same in all ethnic groups, the adequate time of exposure to the Sun for the synthesis of vitamin D is not the same, and many characteristics that would be interpreted as “healthy” in some ethnicities are not in others, so the correct use of this information helps to more effectively interpret the results of blood counts, analyze bone, dermatological and other anomalies. muscle. Knowing the physiological, cognitive and behavioral differences of each ethnicity is important; the problem is to use these differences for the purpose of tyrannizing, oppressing or diminishing the merits of a people, this is unethical and unscientific, and Lynn ostensibly tries to do this.

In the case of Brazil, there seems to be a distortion close to 10 to 15 points in the numbers presented by Lynn, so the correct average Brazilian IQ should be around 95, a little below average, but not so much as to justify the bad results. of Brazil in Science. The real problems seem to be laziness and other items I mentioned above. There are recent studies that question whether apparently lazy behavior should be classified exactly as “laziness” or not, but I won’t go into that discussion either so as not to make this text even longer.

In the 1950s and 1960s, Richard Feynman was in Brazil a few times and made severe criticisms of the Brazilian education system, he did some impromptu social experiments and showed that Brazilian doctoral students often did not understand the basics of what they were doing, they acted mechanically , without the slightest idea about the fundamentals. Brazilians wrote some nice words in relation to Feynman’s criticism, saying that they intended to improve something, but the current situation is perhaps even worse than it was when Feynman was in our country. In addition to the shameful situation of education in Brazil, there are still other problems in this episode, because Brazilian “educators” showed surprise and perplexity with the problems pointed out by Feynman, as if they were in a house on fire, but they were not seeing that the fire was devouring. everything, until a neighbor comes in and shows them the fire. So they thank you, look shocked, make a speech of mea culpa, but do nothing concrete about the fire, which is still devastating … It ‘s unbelievable that they weren’t seeing the fire before the neighbor pointed it out to them and unbelievable that they continue without taking any action after the problem was pointed out.

Although scientists and educators have not mobilized to try to solve the problem, some Brazilian exponents of Mathematics, who had some experiences in Europe and the United States, decided to try to reproduce a small oasis, bringing to Brazil some of what they had experienced in developed countries. In 1952, IMPA (Institute of Pure and Applied Mathematics) was founded. At that time, Brazil was in Group I of the IMU (International Mathematical Union), the lowest level. For 70 years, IMPA has been the only place in Brazil where there has been a sincere attempt to identify and support some outstanding talent, trying to escape the bureaucracy and inefficiency of the Educational System. But IMPA is only 1 institution located in Rio de Janeiro. Brazil is a large country, with 8,500,000 km^2, so people who live far from RJ are often unable to enjoy what IMPA offers. Therefore, IMPA’s reach is still small. With the popularization of the Internet, this has improved, but the number of beneficiaries is still very limited, including because there is relatively little publicity about IMPA events, most schools do not enroll their students in OBM (Brazilian Mathematics Olympiad), most of the students do not even know that OBM exists. There are some professors spread across Brazil linked to IMPA, who try to contribute to the identification of talents, but it is a difficult process, they do not receive incentives from the government or companies. Even with these obstacles, between 1952 and 2015 IMPA raised Brazil from Group 1 to Group 5 (the highest), which only 11 countries are part of: Germany, Brazil, Canada, China, USA, France, Israel, Italy , Japan, UK and Russia.

I don’t know what the criteria for being included in Group 5 of the UMC are, but I suppose it’s a combination of merit and politics, perhaps more merit than politics. I say that there is a bit of politics because there are countries with two Fields medals or two Abel awards, but they are not part of this group, such as Australia, Belgium, Iran and Sweden, while Brazil has only 1 Fields medal. Of course, these awards should not be the only criterion, but they are very reasonable indications of the cream of mathematics produced in each country. There are also several countries with 1 Fields medal and a longer mathematical tradition, which are also not in Group 5. Perhaps the criterion takes into account the pace of growth, and in this regard Brazil is perhaps, along with China and India, one of the fastest growing in the production of high-level Mathematics.

The fact is that if the average Brazilian IQ were really as low as Richard Lynn claims, and the main problem in Brazil was really the low average IQ of the population, then IMPA actions would not have been able to substantially modify the quality and quantity. of high-level mathematical production. If the problem were low IQ, the solution would come from other actions, such as nutritional improvements, for example. IMPA actions did not change the average IQ of the population; they only changed the efficiency in the identification of talents that already existed in the country, and after the identification, opportunities and incentives began to be offered to these talents.

The numbers pointed out by Lynn, that the average Brazilian IQ would be 87, are inconsistent with the results achieved by IMPA. Even with a population of 213 million, it would be difficult for some of these people to reach the world top with rarity close to 1 in 300 million if Brazil was 1 standard deviation below the average, even because IMPA cannot extend its benefits to more than 1% to 5% of the most talented population. Of course, other hypotheses would apply, such as a higher standard deviation in the IQ distribution among the Brazilian population or a more platykurtic distribution. But generally what you see in groups with a smaller mean height is a narrower rather than a wider standard deviation. This happens with virtually all variables. The standard deviation in diameter for larger screws is wider than for smaller screws. In other words, the percentage standard deviation is usually maintained, so it would be strange for a population with a lower IQ to have a higher standard deviation. Furthermore, it would be an ad hoc adjustment to try to salvage a theory that has other problems, making it more plausible to pass Occam’s razor and accept that Lynn is wrong about this. The average Brazilian’s correct IQ is substantially higher than he says, just like the IQs of most other non-Aryan peoples he tries to push down are also higher than the numbers he presents.

Examining the facts objectively, what the data suggests is that the average Brazilian IQ is probably much closer to 95 than to 87. A little below average, but not as low as Lynn suggests.

The IMPA results also show that perhaps laziness is a reflection of the poor education system. If laziness were a widespread problem in the country, the solutions implemented by IMPA would not have been enough to solve it either; other complementary measures would be necessary. Perhaps laziness is a striking problem that affects more than 99% of the population, but about 1% could not be labeled as “lazy”, but as a victim of a very bad education system. As more than 99% of intellectual production comes from that 1%, we have a huge problem there, and a complete lack of attention to this problem, because politicians are not very concerned about making great efforts to win 1% of votes, since with less effort they can get more votes by pretending to please a less demanding, easier to deceive and much more numerous audience.

One of the big problems is that the 99% of the population are also harmed, but they don’t see this themselves and don’t demand from the government measures that can contribute to long-term improvements, measures that are good and fair for all. Each just wants the government to adopt measures with immediate results that benefit their own navels. In this way, the problem tends to perpetuate itself, as it has for decades.

Many Brazilian academics often complain about the lack of funds and attribute the low scientific production to this. Others do worse, pretending that there is good quality scientific production in Brazil, despite the lack of funds. But what the concrete facts show is that really very poor countries, in which most of the population lives in poverty, such as Ethiopia, Nigeria, Congo, Kenya, Ghana, etc. had citizens Nobel laureates, while in Brazil there has never been a Nobel laureate. Furthermore, when Einstein developed his major works, for which he deserved 3 Nobel prizes (and 2 more for later works), he was not receiving any funding for his research, not even in previous years. Therefore, although the lack of resources imposes severe limitations, it cannot be considered an absolute impediment, much less be used as a pretext in a situation like this. Great works were carried out practically without money, as was much of Newton’s work during 1665.

[Here, perhaps, a small caveat fits, because as I mentioned in the part about awards and merits, it is possible that some Brazilians have performed works with merit to receive a Nobel, but were not laureates for political, bureaucratic reasons, etc. My work on Econometrics and Risk Management, for example, is more expressive than most of the work of Nobel laureates in Economics in recent decades. The discovery of the π meson, although predominantly an operational work, had a Brazilian as the protagonist (César Lattes), but as the team leader was Celil Powell, Lattes only had a B.Sc. and at the time (1950) the award was only given to the head of the team, Lattes ended up not receiving the award, although he was perhaps primarily responsible for this work and was the main author of the article. After the detection of π mesons in cosmic rays (1947), Lattes was one of the few in the world with the necessary knowledge to identify the signatures left by these particles on the emulsion plates, so he was invited to collaborate at CERN (1948) and verify if they were also able to produce π mesons, as the energy needed for this was easily exceeded by the particle accelerator used, so they were probably already producing pions for a long time (since 1946), but they didn’t know exactly what to look for in the chambers bubble as being signatures of the π mesons. Lattes went to CERN and made the identifications. Again the work was distinguished with the Nobel and again Lattes was excluded from the award. In all, Lattes was nominated 7 times for the Nobel, but was never awarded. Oswaldo Cruz was also nominated for the Nobel Prize in Medicine, but was not awarded. Perhaps Machado de Assis would also have merit for a Nobel Prize in Literature. So, although there are 0 Brazilian Nobel laureates, maybe some have merit for that. There is a detailed text in which I analyze the case of Lattes, without the usual exaggerations and nationalist distortions of most articles about him, but at the same time acknowledging the merits he had that were not properly recognized.]

On the one hand, the low scientific production reflects the lack of funds, on the other hand, the lack of funds reflects the low scientific production, because if there really was scientific and technological production of good quality, large national and international companies would be interested in funding this research. , as they would profit from it. If private companies do not invest in Brazilian science, it is because such “investment” does not generate an expectation of profit, because the level of production is below what could justify some serious interest from entrepreneurs. I usually use the term “donation” for Brazilian science instead of “Investment”, because the meaning of “investment” is different. What Brazilian researchers demand is basically this: donation.

It is important to make it clear that I am not against funding Brazilian science, whether in the form of investment or donation. If I were against it, it would be stupid. I am against the bad management of the budget allocated to Science, combined with the terrible educational system and the complete lack of incentive for intellectual production. Intellectual production is not writing 50,000 useless papers to pretend that it is being produced and continue “sucking” on the grants of “research” funding agencies. Real intellectual production is serious effort to solve real and important problems. Therefore, instead of whining about lack of funds, the correct procedure would be a complete reformulation of the clowning that takes place in Brazilian Education and in Brazilian “scientific” research, they would need to start producing real, with high quality, as happens at IMPA , and then present substantial facts and consistent arguments to claim investments. Without it, the tearful speech to ask for donation is fragile. Certainly a crowd of unproductive researchers will stone me for this comment, but the few serious researchers will agree with me, although they may not have the courage to publicly acknowledge the position they defend, lest they be lynched by their colleagues.

Perhaps there are less than 1% of serious researchers in Brazil, among which I had the opportunity to meet some, such as Renato P. dos Santos, Roberto Venegeroles, André Gambaro, José Paulo Dieguez, Luis Anunciação, Antonio Piza, André Asevedo Nepomuceno, Herbert Kimura, Cristóvão Jacques, George Matsas, Doris Fontes among others. But unfortunately they represent a small fraction, and they do not always openly admit the disastrous situation in which Brazilian science finds itself, because the pressure is great for them to pretend to believe in the staging of which most of the others are part. When the person takes a fair position on this and tells forbidden truths, he begins to be cowardly boycotted on all sides, so it is understandable that many prefer to remain silent, avoiding manifesting, or simply pretending to agree with the fantasy. that try to propagate the situation of Science and Education in Brazil. Many criticized Copernicus because of the preface to his book Revolutionibus, for not having faced the dominant beliefs openly, but when analyzing the problems faced by Galileo, it is clear that the defense of the truth that goes against the interests of certain groups can be very onerous . And it would be naive to believe that the entities that dominate the world today (media, companies, universities, politicians, etc.) are more scrupulous than the medieval ecclesiastics were. There are certainly some entities that are more reputable and more sincerely committed to defending what is right and fair, but they are exceptions, unfortunately. “Ironically” the same people who are outraged by the persecution of Galileo are the people who today practice the same type of abuse, injustice and persecution.

This is a delicate situation, because if the immense majority builds a hoax and pretends that it is real, it becomes difficult for a small minority to restore the truth. For example: Roberto de Andrade Martins is a serious researcher, with post-docs in Cambridge and Oxford, with good knowledge and good understanding of Physics, Logic and Epistemology. He is completely rejected by his colleagues and by those who call themselves “scientific” disseminators, because Roberto tells undesirable truths. Roberto has never been invited to the major channels of scientific dissemination in Brazil, although he is by far more qualified than the overwhelming majority of those invited to these channels. This happens because in these channels, the most “commercial”, more “charismatic” figures are preferred in the eyes of those who pretend to be interested in Science, instead of serious scientists who tell forbidden truths about the tragic reality of science in the country and education in the country. country. YouTubers who call themselves “scientific promoters” in Brazil have to choose between truth and popularity, and almost always prefer the second option. In this way, they are dragging a farce that at some point will cause the country’s collapse, as happened with the former USSR in 1991, or with the Lehman Brothers bank in 2008. They were sweeping the dirt under the rug, until a point where the situation became untenable and the shack collapsed. There are a few serious scientific disseminators in Brazil, but these generally reach a much smaller, more enlightened audience that already sees the problem without it being necessary for someone to show them. The public that would really need to be informed remains “armored”, to serve no one’s interests, since no one will profit from the sinking of the nation. Chomsky once declared that “the purpose of the media is not to report what happens, but to shape public opinion in accordance with the will of the dominant corporate power.” In this case it is worse, because they are not shaping public opinion according to anyone’s will. They are just acting stupidly for everyone’s harm.

Hypocrisy is another terrible problem that affects a large number of Brazilian academics and pseudo science disseminators. When a foreigner comes to Brazil and says that Brazilian science is a joke, as Feynman did, he stomps and spits on Brazilian science, Brazilian academics certainly don’t like it, they are embarrassed, but even so they applaud the alpha male, like sycophantic primates. But when another Brazilian points out the same problem, they growl and rant at the heretic and try to keep him from talking about it.

There are a few more complications that cannot be overlooked: most cutting-edge science has no immediate application and can take decades or centuries to produce any return for the investor. The director of the Department of Mathematical Physics at USP, Ph.D. from MIT and Post Doctoral from MIT, Antonio Fernando Ribeiro de Toledo Piza, who in 1994 wanted to meet me in order to talk to me about a work I developed at age 19, about a method for calculating fractional factorials, in the middle of the conversation he mentioned an occasion in which Faraday was asked what the discoveries he had made about electricity and magnetism were for. Faraday responded with another question: “What good is a child who has just been born?” This phrase expresses a complex problem in the treatment of science as an “investment”, because the current human life expectancy is too short for some investments in science to be seen as attractive to private investors. These are investments that will only bring a return in 50 years, 100 years or more, for the following generations, for our children, grandchildren, great-grandchildren, it is a tree that we will have the cost and work of planting, fertilizing, cultivating, protecting, but they are our grandchildren who will reap the rewards. For this reason, even in countries where science is prolific, it may not be attractive to private investors, whose time horizon for which they are willing to wait for results is usually shorter.

Having made this important caveat, it is necessary to emphasize that this discourse would be fallacious if used to try to save the terrible reputation of Brazilian science. What is produced in Brazil can rarely even be called “Science”. Data tabulation and descriptive reports are made about the task. To use Faraday’s argument I cited her above, in defense of investment in Science, it would first be necessary for Brazil to start producing real Science.

Real science involves innovation, paradigm shift, real improvement, critical, in-depth analysis that goes beyond the obvious and adds some new and useful knowledge to the legacy of humanity. In Brazil this is rarely done. In fact, this is rarely done in the world, but the level of scarcity of innovations is worse in Brazil than in other countries with a similar economic situation or with a similar HDI.

When I say “paradigm break” it doesn’t have to be something as grandiose as a new cosmological system or a unification theory. It could be something basic, like adding a little boron to photographic emulsion plates to preserve the records of π mesons all the way down from the mountains, as César Lattes did, or solving a homomorphic encryption problem that was open for 15 years, as he did Joao Antonio LJ, or develop a new educational system that allows teaching 1-year content in 40 days to a child who had below-average grades and after those 40 days the child starts to have the best grades in school, as Tamara PC did Rodrigues, or revise the BMI formula, as I did. They are small contributions, but they reveal scientific facts still unknown, or correct knowledge that has been incorrectly repeated for a long time, or in some way contribute to broadening the horizons of knowledge or to redirecting knowledge to a path closer to the truth. It is not a complete deconstruction and reconstruction of knowledge, as Newton did, but it is a brick added to the right place, or removed from the wrong place and repositioned in the right place. This is the minimum that would be expected of a scientist, but most of the time this minimum is not met, and Ph.D. they are distributed almost like a ritual, in which the candidate only has to show that he knows how to write and knows how to interpret a little of what is on some graphs – with several misinterpretations, by the way. Depending on the discipline, it is enough to show that you can write, you don’t even need to know how to read a chart. After performing the ritual, the person receives the Ph.D. label. and begins to receive money to continue with this nonsense, pretending to be producing Science.

The vast majority of doctoral theses and scientific articles do not present anything innovative. These titles are awarded to inflate egos and satisfy people’s vanity, but they are not associated with any intellectual merit or original scientific production. A person does elementary research, purely mechanical, to corroborate some results on which there are already hundreds of other similar studies, and receives a Ph.D. therefore, and the State pays these people to pretend that they are producing something relevant and they call it “Brazilian science”, but the correct name, at best, would be “data tabulation” and “descriptive reports”. I say “at best” because there are usually several blunders in these procedures, which makes the situation even more vexing.

The central problem is that there is no culture of producing innovations. It just repeats itself endlessly. There is no incentive for innovation, there is no charge for innovation, no reward for innovation and, worst of all, there are even penalties for innovation. In 1998, a friend (Patrícia EC), who was completing her doctorate at USP, found that some experimental data on dwarf galaxy morphology was inconsistent with expectations. Instead of her advisor helping her try to understand what could be causing it, he told her to redo the measurements because she must have made a mistake in the measurements or calculations. Up to this point, I agree with him, because these mistakes are often the most common. She redid and obtained results statistically equivalent to the first measurements. At this point the yellow alert turns red and her advisor should have paid more attention to the case. However, he told her to redo it again! This is complete nonsense. It’s unscientific. It is to destroy “evidence” that could contribute to expanding, revising, improving what was known until then. This is the level at which the so-called “Brazilian science” sect finds itself. If any discovery is contrary to established dogmas, it needs to be adjusted in some way until it conforms to the dogmas. In addition to the fact that there are no incentives for discoveries, when there is any indication that something new may be ahead, we try to erase the traces of the possible discovery! People are trained not to produce, not to innovate, not to discover!

Part of the education problem in the country is not the fault of teachers, students and researchers. They just dance to the music. But a big part of the problem is their fault, because they determine the music that should play. In addition, they can refuse to dance to the music, they can put on headphones with better music, and they can create their own center of excellence, as in the case of IMPA.

The academic community’s resistance to admitting these facts exacerbates the situation, because instead of trying to fix the problems, they pretend the problems don’t exist, sweep the dirt under the rug, and move on as if everything is fine. Recently, the president of Brazil made a brutal cut in funds destined for “science”. It is a delicate situation, because the problem of scientific unproductivity is not resolved in this way. The budget cut only exacerbates the situation. It is bad to allocate money to a sector that does not generate satisfactory results, but being a fundamental sector, the correct procedure is to restore that sector and ensure that it works as it should, instead of killing it, taking away its bread and water. It would need to exchange bread and water for a richer diet, increase investment in science and simultaneously reformulate the criteria for granting scholarships, granting funds, reducing the bureaucracy of importing books and scientific and technological products, promoting exchanges with qualified researchers, creating prizes for real merit related to excellence in the original production of relevant works, rather than the political front awards, among many other changes from basic education to the titles of professors emeritus.

In the 1970s, China, India and Thailand were much poorer and less developed countries than Brazil, but they made massive investments in identifying talented children and offered differentiated conditions to encourage these children. Thailand stopped the project. China and India did. In less than two decades, they began to reap the rewards, after one generation, these children became highly skilled teachers, who provided the next generation with an even more exquisite education, and today China is on its way to becoming the greatest economic power, cultural, scientific and technological world, and India follows closely. There was a serious and profound overhaul of the education system so that they could get to where they are now. Instead of pretending they were doing science, they admitted the unproductiveness and low quality of what they produced, and started to fix what was wrong. One of the great problems in Brazil is precisely this inability to admit mistakes.

Portuguese Version

Entrevista para Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Preâmbulo:

Em primeiro lugar eu quero agradecer à minha namorada Tamara, pela paciência de ler esse texto e me ajudar a cortar longos trechos desnecessários, a Tor pela gentileza de me indicar para essa entrevista e a você (Scott) por aceitar essa indicação e por sua amável ajuda com a revisão da tradução.

Na medida do possível, procurei sintetizar e simplificar, mas sempre que foi necessário decidir entre a resposta mais curta e a mais correta, optei por aquela que me parecia a mais correta. Como resultado, acabei me estendendo mais do que gostaria e ramificando algumas respostas por detalhes que aparentemente perdem o vínculo com a pergunta, mas que, na verdade, estão indiretamente conectados por dois, três ou mais nós, de modo que se esses trechos fossem removidos, ficariam lacunas que comprometeriam a coerência.

Antes de apresentar as respostas é necessário fazer alguns esclarecimentos importantes: quando a pergunta é simples, basta dar uma resposta curta para que a interpretação seja unívoca, mas para questões complexas, antes de responder é necessário conceituar alguns dos termos utilizados, para minimizar as diferenças entre a mensagem a ser transmitida e a interpretação que dela será feita. Uma questão do tipo “Por que, no Xadrez, nem todos os Peões dobrados são debilidades?” Não há como responder de modo a proporcionar uma ideia correta em apenas 1 ou 2 parágrafos, nem mesmo se a resposta fosse simplificada e resumida. Para tentar proporcionar uma ideia razoavelmente correta e completa, são necessárias pelo menos 20 páginas, com vários exemplos comentados. Nessa entrevista, algumas perguntas envolvem situações semelhantes.

Esse tipo de dificuldade é inerente a qualquer pergunta envolvendo QI, porque o conceito atualmente disseminado apresenta algumas falhas que precisam ser devidamente revisadas, e algumas dessas revisões não são triviais, exigindo um volume considerável de esclarecimentos preliminares para garantir que a interpretação da resposta seja suficientemente acurada e fidedigna.

Fora das sociedades de alto QI é comum que façam confusão entre escalas com desvios padrão diferentes. O escore 1579 de James Woods no SAT é frequentemente convertido em 180, enquanto o escore 1590 de Bill Gates é convertido em 154 (às vezes 160), e ambos aparecem na mesma lista como se o QI de Woods fosse maior que o de Gates, embora seja o contrário. Esse tipo de erro primário foi praticamente erradicado nas sociedades de alto QI, mas ainda há erros sistemáticos sendo repetidos ostensivamente, alguns dos quais são grandes e graves. Esses erros provocam muitas confusões e dificultam a correta interpretação de questões fundamentais. Eu não me refiro a erros individuais, cometidos por algumas pessoas, mas sim a erros “institucionalizados”, universalmente aceitos como se fossem corretos e cometidos por praticamente todas as pessoas.

Em 2000, resolvi um problema central da Psicometria que vinha se arrastando desde os anos 1950, quando Thurstone e Gardner perceberam a importância de padronizar testes cognitivos de modo a produzir escores em escala de proporção. Bob Seitz, da Mega Society, referiu-se a esse problema como “O Santo Graal da Psicometria”. Depois de investigar esse problema e resolvê-lo, publiquei um artigo descrevendo meu método e mostrando como os testes deveriam ser normatizados. Também revisei as normas do Mega Test e Titan Test utilizando esse método. Em 2003, apliquei o mesmo método ao Sigma Test e publiquei outro artigo, mais detalhado, descrevendo passo-a-passo todo o processo de normatização e explicando os motivos pelos quais esse procedimento é superior aos métodos utilizados. Entre os problemas crônicos que são solucionados de forma natural com a aplicação desse método, um dos mais importantes é a correção nos cálculos dos percentis e dos níveis de raridade. Esse é um erro sistemático que vem sendo cometido desde 1905. Comentarei essa questão com um pouco mais de detalhes ao responder a questões que tratam desse tema.

Há dois outros erros que são cometidos sistematicamente, embora as soluções para eles já sejam conhecidas, mas não são aplicadas, em parte porque esses problemas não são bem compreendidos: o problema de validade de constructo e o problema da adequação do nível de dificuldade das questões ao nível de inteligência que se pretende medir. De certo modo, esses problemas estão conectados, porque geralmente os testes apresentam boa validade de constructo para determinado intervalo de níveis de habilidade, mas não para todo o intervalo no qual o teste pretende medir, assim os resultados acabam se mostrando razoavelmente acurados e fidedignos para pessoas cujos escores estejam dentro do intervalo de validade, mas começam a apresentar sérias distorções fora desse intervalo. Um exemplo clássico para ilustrar esse problema é o Stanford-Binet V. Os processos cognitivos exigidos para solucionar as questões do SBV podem ser apropriados para medir corretamente a inteligência no intervalo de 60 a 140, mas começam a se mostrar menos apropriados entre 140 a 150, por isso os escores acima de 150 já estão representando predominantemente um traço latente que não é o que se pretendia medir. Isso compromete inteira a validade desse tipo de instrumento para a aferição acima de 150, e coloca em dúvida em que medida os escores entre 140 e 150 estão de fato refletindo o nível intelectual.

Para organizar melhor as informações, antes de prosseguir citarei 3 erros importantes que são cometidos sistematicamente pelos psicometristas profissionais e nas sociedades de alto QI:

A maneira como os testes são padronizados, tanto os testes clínicos quanto os high range IQ tests (hrIQts) – seja pelo uso de Teoria de Resposta ao Item, seja pela Teoria Clássica dos Testes –, produz distorções na escala, e a maneira como os percentis são calculados conduz a resultados muito distantes da realidade. Essa distorção na escala já foi apontada desde os anos 1950, por Thurstone, e já havia sido notada (embora não tivesse sido descrita) pelo próprio Binet em 1905. Um bom método para normatização de testes de inteligência deveria produzir escores numa escala de proporção, mas os escores de QI se apresentam numa escala ordinal (https://www.questionpro.com/blog/nominal-ordinal-interval-ratio/). Além disso, os erros nos cálculos dos níveis de raridade apresentam distorções muito grandes nos escores mais altos, chegando a mais de 3 ordens de grandeza. Isso acontece porque os cálculos partem da hipótese incorreta de que a distribuição dos QIs é gaussiana em toda sua extensão. A morfologia da distribuição é de fato muito semelhante à de uma gaussiana no intervalo -2σ a +2σ, mas começa a degringolar fora desse intervalo. Esse fato não pode ser negligenciado quando se calcula os percentis. Da maneira como os cálculos são feitos atualmente pelos psicometristas e nas comunidades de alto QI, chega-se a resultados muito distantes dos corretos. Por isso, quando se fala em percentil 99,9999% ou QI 176 (σ=16), os significados são muito diferentes, embora sejam usados como se fossem a mesma coisa. A raridade correta para o QI=176 não é 1 em 983.000, mas sim 1 em 24.500. E isso não acontece porque o desvio padrão seja maior. O desvio padrão é o mesmo (16 nesse exemplo), porém a cauda direita é mais densa do que numa distribuição normal, tornando os escores mais altos mais abundantes do que seria esperado se a distribuição fosse exatamente gaussiana. Trata-se de um problema relacionado à morfologia da distribuição verdadeira, que não se ajusta ao modelo teórico de distribuição normal. Na verdade, não se ajusta bem a nenhuma das mais de 100 distribuições testadas, inclusive as mais versáteis, como a distribuição de Weibull com 3 parâmetros.
Outro problema é que o nível de dificuldade das questões mais difíceis de cada teste não é compatível com o teto nominal do teste. Como consequência, tal teste mostra-se inapropriado para o intervalo de QIs que deveria medir. O teste funciona adequadamente dentro de certo intervalo, no qual contenha questões com dificuldade compatível, mas deixa de funcionar fora desse intervalo. Isso é muito mais grave nos testes clínicos, cujo teto de dificuldade raramente ultrapassa 135 a 140, mas o teto nominal pode chegar a mais de 200 (Stanford-Binet V, por exemplo). Acima de 140, os testes clínicos medem a rapidez para resolver problemas elementares, que não é necessariamente uma métrica apropriada para representar a inteligência nos níveis mais altos. Nos casos de hrIQt, no quesito “dificuldade”, as questões geralmente são apropriadas até cerca de 170 ou 180, mas não muito acima disso. Aqui seria necessário abrir um extenso parêntesis para discutir o significado desses escores, porque até 130 ou um pouco acima, a raridade teórica é quase igual à raridade verdadeira, mas para 140, 150 e acima, a raridade teórica vai se tornando cada vez mais distante da raridade verdadeira. Então quando falamos em 180 de QI (σ=16), não basta informar o desvio padrão. Além disso é necessário informar se estamos falando do escore medido em um teste ou se é um percentil verdadeiro convertido em QI. Se a distribuição dos QIs fosse exatamente gaussiana em todo o seu espectro, então um QI 180 (σ=16) deveria corresponder ao nível de raridade de 1 em 3.500.000, mas a raridade verdadeira de escores 180 fica em torno de 1 em 48.000. Mais adiante, menciono link no qual descrevo como chegar a esse nível de raridade de 1 em 48.000.
Outro problema está relacionado à validade de constructo, isto é, se aquilo que o teste está medindo é de fato aquilo que se pretende medir. Os melhores testes clínicos (WAIS e SB) são muito bons nesse critério para o intervalo de 70 a 130, porque esse tema tem sido amplamente debatido entre bons psicometristas ao longo de décadas e se conseguiu estabelecer alguns bons critérios para avaliar (ainda que subjetivamente) se os itens estão medindo o que deveriam medir (a inteligência, nesse caso, ou o fator g). Entretanto, fora desse intervalo de 70 a 130, a variável medida vai se tornando cada vez mais destoante daquilo que se pretendia medir. Nos hrIQts o alcance é um pouco maior, chega a cerca de 160, alguns testes chegam 170 ou até 180.

Além desses 3 problemas que são observados em praticamente todos os testes clínicos e todos os hrIQts, há também alguns problemas individuais, que são mais básicos e afetam apenas alguns testes específicos, como norma inflada, erros no gabarito, erros nos enunciados etc. Não tratarei desses, porque já são bastante conhecidos e fáceis de identificar e corrigir.

É importante não confundir a validade de constructo com a adequação do nível de dificuldade. Uma questão muito elementar, com um prazo muito curto para ser resolvida, pode ter dificuldade adequada para medir no nível de raridade 1 em 10 milhões, porque embora seja intrinsecamente fácil, como o prazo é reduzido, acaba se tornando difícil resolver dentro daquele prazo. Em casos assim, a dificuldade pode ser apropriada para medir alguma coisa em níveis muito altos de raridade, mas esse traço latente que está sendo medido não é o que deveria ser medido. Além disso, o fato de um teste ter validade de construto num determinado intervalo não implica que terá necessariamente validade em níveis muito acima ou muito abaixo daquele intervalo. Esse é um dos erros mais comuns, porque ao validar um teste de inteligência para 98% da população, isso não garante que ele continue medindo corretamente a inteligência no nível dos 1% ou 0,1% de escores mais altos. A validação precisa ser cuidadosa em todos os intervalos nos quais se pretende que o teste seja capaz de medir corretamente.

Há também alguns problemas mais sutis. O Raven Standard Progressive Matrices, por exemplo, tem sido utilizado pela Mensa em vários países durante décadas, mas é inadequado para medir corretamente acima de 120, talvez até acima de 115. O motivo é que o teste é constituído por 60 questões, mas apenas 1 ou 2 dessas questões (as mais difíceis) são úteis para discriminar no nível de 133, que é onde a Mensa pretende selecionar. Então é como se fossem utilizadas apenas 2 das 60 questões, e uma amostra com apenas 2 elementos não pode ser considerada válida estatisticamente. Na verdade, o corte em 133 não é determinado exatamente por 1 ou 2 questões, mas estas 2 questões respondem por mais de 90% do poder discriminante do teste nesse nível de corte.

Por essas razões, se há interesse sincero em que perguntas sobre QI recebam respostas representativas da realidade, esses três problemas precisam ser corrigidos:

Extrapolação infundada da validade de constructo;
Inadequação da dificuldade dos itens para o nível intelectual que o teste pretende medir;
Adoção de hipóteses incorretas sobre a forma da distribuição dos escores nos níveis mais altos, com base na forma na região próxima à tendência central.

Além desses, há outros pontos que precisam ser esclarecidos. Há um mito amplamente disseminado de que testes aplicados em clínicas são “melhores” (mais confiáveis, mais acurados, mais fidedignos) do que hrIQts. Em alguns casos, realmente são. Mas não em todos. Para escores abaixo de 130, como os testes supervisionados são normatizados com base em amostras maiores e não-seletas, isso constitui uma vantagem real dos testes clínicos em comparação aos hrIQts. Outra vantagem é que os bons psicometristas conhecem maior número de técnicas estatísticas, por isso na faixa de 70 a 130 geralmente os melhores testes supervisionados produzem escores mais fidedignos. Porém acima de 130 e, principalmente, acima de 140, os testes supervisionados apresentam vários problemas, a começar pelo teto inadequado de dificuldade. As questões mais difíceis do WAIS, por exemplo, são excessivamente fáceis para que possam medir a inteligência acima de 135. Outro problema é que a validade de constructo dos testes supervisionados é planejada para o intervalo de 70 a 130, não se aplicando tão bem fora desse intervalo.

Fiz um exemplo simulado para mostrar em que consiste o problema da variável de constructo:

A linha azul representa o traço latente[*] que gostaríamos de medir (inteligência ou fator g ou algo assim). Os círculos vermelhos representam os escores obtidos no teste convertidos em QI. No intervalo entre 0 e 120, os escores medidos são representações muito boas do traço latente, porque os pontos se distribuem estreitamente perto da linha azul, indicando forte correlação entre a variável que gostaríamos de medir e a variável que estamos realmente medindo. [* https://dictionary.apa.org/latent-trait-theory, https://www.jstor.org/stable/1434009]

A partir de 120, e principalmente a partir de 130, os círculos vermelhos começam a se afastar cada vez mais da linha azul, indicando que a correlação entre a variável que gostaríamos de medir e a variável que está sendo realmente medida se torna cada vez mais fraca, portanto aquilo que estamos medindo está cada vez sendo menos representativo do que gostaríamos de medir. Se considerar o intervalo inteiro de 0 a 200, ou mesmo de 70 a 200, a correlação ainda parece forte, mas isso só acontece porque o intervalo de 70 a 120 está contido dentro do intervalo de 70 a 200, e como no intervalo 70 a 120 a correlação é forte, isso melhora a correlação média do intervalo inteiro de 70 a 200, mas quando se considera exclusivamente a correlação entre 130 e 200, percebe-se que a correlação é fraca nessa região e vai se tornando mais fraca para os escores mais altos. Por isso para escores acima de 130 o que importa não é a correlação global, mas sim a correlação local.

Em testes de QI como o Stanford-Binet, por exemplo, algumas pessoas muito rápidas com QI verdadeiro 150 podem obter escore 190 ou mais, como consequência do problema descrito acima. Também pode acontecer o efeito oposto, e pessoas com QI verdadeiro 190, se forem muito lentas, podem ter escore 150, 140 ou até menos. O tamanho dos erros pode chegar a níveis realmente muito altos, tanto para mais que o correto quanto para menos que o correto, por isso é que a validade de constructo[*] é um quesito extremamente importante. [* https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Construct_validity]

Um teste que tenha boa validade de constructo deve apresentar comportamento como o do gráfico abaixo, em que os círculos vermelhos permanecem próximos à linha azul ao longo de todo espectro dentro do qual se pretende medir:

Naturalmente, se a amostra tiver distribuição normal, os dados se distribuirão aproximadamente como uma elipse, não como uma linha que foi representada acima, mas para fins didáticos esse exemplo precisa ser assim para ficar visualmente mais claro o aumento na amplitude da dispersão das medidas em relação ao traço latente que gostaríamos de medir. Também convém enfatizar que, no mundo real, situações como a do gráfico acima praticamente não existem, porque o alinhamento está excessivamente bom. Mas é desejável que os escores medidos sejam capazes de oferecer boas representações para o traço latente dentro de um intervalo tão largo quanto possível.

Nos testes de QI supervisionados, utilizados em clínicas, geralmente as disparidades começam a se tornar graves a partir de 130 e principalmente a partir de 140, ou seja, aquilo que o teste mede acima de 140 deixa de ser uma boa representação da Inteligência. Nos casos dos melhores hrIQts, os escores continuam sendo representações razoavelmente boas do traço latente até QI 160 ou um pouco mais.

Um teste pode ter questões com nível de dificuldade apropriado, mas aquilo que as questões estão medindo pode não ser a inteligência. Ou pode acontecer de que a variável medida seja a inteligência, mas apenas num intervalo específico (como no primeiro gráfico). Alguns quebra-cabeças para crianças, por exemplo, podem ser eficientes para medir corretamente no intervalo entre idade mental de 8 a 16 anos, ou 50 a 100 de QI numa escala para adultos, mas se utilizar esses mesmos quebra-cabeças para tentar medir os QIs de adultos acima de 160 ou 170, o resultado será desastroso, porque a habilidade para resolver rapidamente esses quebra-cabeças não pode ser interpretada como uma boa representação da inteligência nesse nível. Por isso o tipo de problema precisa ser compatível com o nível intelectual que se pretende medir.

Geralmente as pessoas mais inteligentes também são mais rápidas para resolver questões básicas, mas o fato de resolver rapidamente questões simples não oferece uma boa garantia de que a pessoa também será capaz de resolver questões mais complexas, profundas e que exijam criatividade. Além disso, o fato de a pessoa ser capaz de resolver questões complexas, profundas e que exigem criatividade não oferece boa garantia de que ela será capaz de resolver rapidamente questões básicas. Como os testes utilizados em clínicas incluem exclusivamente questões básicas, o efeito apresentado no gráfico 1 acaba sendo muito frequente.

Essa questão é analisada com mais detalhes no texto introdutório do S igma T est E xtended.

Também é necessário padronizar os significados de alguns termos que vou utilizar nas respostas:

rIQ = QI de raridade, ou QI (σ=16 G), ou rIQ (σ=16 G)

pIQ = QI de potencial, ou QI (σ=16 T), ou pIQ (σ=16 T)

Explicações detalhadas podem ser encontradas em https://www.sigmasociety.net/escalasqi. Aqui darei uma explicação resumida: rIQ é o valor que teria o QI convertido a partir da raridade verdadeira. Isso não é o QI medido nos testes de QI nem em hrIQts. O QI medido é o pIQ, cuja distribuição não é gaussiana, a distribuição tem uma cauda densa, por isso os escores de pIQ são mais abundantes do que o previsto com base na hipótese de normalidade da distribuição. Isso não tem relação com o desvio padrão ser maior. O desvio padrão é o mesmo. A forma da distribuição que é diferente, concentrando mais casos na cauda direita e menos na região central. Nas regiões próximas à tendência central, pIQ é quase igual ao rIQ e se mantém assim até cerca de 130. A partir de então, pIQ vai se tornando maior que rIQ. Alguns exemplos:

rIQ 100 equivale a pIQ 100,00

rIQ 130 equivale a pIQ 130,87

rIQ 150 equivale a pIQ 156,59

rIQ 180 equivale a pIQ 204,93

(Uma tabela completa está disponível na página do S igma T est E xtended)

A diferença entre pIQ e rIQ aumenta conforme o rIQ aumenta, porque a proporção em que a densidade real da cauda fica maior que a densidade teórica é cada vez maior à medida que o QI se afasta da média.

Quando se compara QIs estimados com base na raridade com QIs medidos em testes, é fundamental colocar ambos na mesma escala. Por exemplo: digamos que Newton seja considerado a pessoa mais inteligente da História e digamos que o número de pessoas que já nasceram seja 100 bilhões. Então o QI de Newton estimado com base na raridade e com base na hipótese de que a distribuição dos escores é normal seria rIQ=207,3 (σ=16, G). Mas a distribuição real dos escores não é normal, por isso não se pode comparar esse 207,3 com um escore 207 medido num teste, porque estão em escalas diferentes. Ambos podem ter mesmo desvio padrão (16, nesse caso), mas a forma da distribuição é diferente e isso não pode ser negligenciado porque a distorção produzida é gigantesca.

O rIQ de Newton seria 207,3 mas seu pIQ seria 261,8. Repetindo: ambos os escores são com desvio padrão 16, tanto o rIQ quanto o pIQ. Não se deve confundir esse processo com a mudança de escalas com desvios padrão diferentes. Os desvios padrão são iguais, mas a forma da curva é diferente. Eu estou repetindo isso várias vezes porque já vi pessoas confundindo isso apenas um parágrafo depois de isso ter sido esclarecido.

Esse ajuste é necessário para corrigir as distorções das normas e possibilitar o cálculo correto das raridades a partir dos escores medidos nos testes, ou o processo inverso de calcular o QI a partir do nível de raridade.

Desse modo, a pessoa com maior rIQ (σ=16 G) numa população de 7,9 bilhões tem rIQ 201,2 que equivale a pIQ (σ=16 T) 247,8. Os escores 201,2 (σ=16 G) e 247,8 (σ=16 T) são equivalentes, como 0ºC e 32ºF. O uso do termo rIQ equivale ao uso do termo QI (σ=16 G), enquanto o uso do termo pIQ equivale ao uso do termo (σ=16 T). Também posso eventualmente utilizar rIQ (σ=16 G) ou pIQ (σ=16 T).

Por isso os testes podem produzir (e de fato produzem) escores acima de 200 com desvio padrão 15 ou 16, mas o cálculo correto dos níveis de raridade ou dos percentis não deve ser realizado da maneira como tem sido feito há décadas. Os cálculos de percentis e de raridade estão errados, conforme já demonstrei desde meus artigos de 2000 a respeito disso. Eu não estou me referindo a testes com normas infladas. Claro que esse problema se torna mais grave quando as normas estão infladas, mas mesmo quando as normas foram calculadas adequadamente, como nos casos da norma do Mega Test ou do Titan Test, tanto a versão de Hoeflin quanto a versão de Grady Towers, ambas fornecem valores incorretos para os percentis. Os escores de QI estão muito próximos dos valores “corretos”, que seriam os valores ajustados a uma escala de intervalo bem padronizada. O problema não está nos QIs medidos, mas sim nos percentis calculados com base na hipótese incorreta de que esses escores teriam uma distribuição normal. Esse tema voltará a ser analisado outras vezes, com mais detalhes, quando os tópicos abordados exigirem isso. Por enquanto, essa introdução deve ser suficiente para desfazer boa parte das confusões que acontecem com uso indiscriminado do termo “QI”, sem fazer a correta distinção entre pIQ e rIQ.

Quando Chris Harding foi registrado no Guinness Book de 1966 com QI 197, com base em seus resultados no Stanford-Binet, isso foi um erro relativamente primário e grave, porque incorre em todos os 3 itens problemáticos que citei acima: o SB não inclui questões suficientemente difíceis para medir corretamente acima de 135; os processos cognitivos exigidos nas soluções não são apropriados para QIs acima de 150; o nível de raridade calculado é incorreto.

Em 1966, a população mundial era de 3,41 bilhões de pessoas, e o nível teórico de raridade para escores 197, assumindo que a distribuição dos escores fosse uma gaussiana com média 100 e desvio padrão 16, era 1 em 1,49 bilhões. Então parecia ser plausível que uma pessoa com esse escore poderia ser proclamada a mais inteligente do mundo, ou pelo menos a pessoa com maior QI do mundo. Entretanto, uma análise correta da situação revela que o escore 197 no SB não indica nível de raridade de 1 em 1.490.000.000, mas sim 1 em 870.000 (cerca de 2000 vezes mais abundante). Além disso, a variável medida no nível de raridade de 1 em 870.000 não é a inteligência. Nessa conjuntura, o máximo que se poderia afirmar com base num escore 197 no SB é que a pessoa apresentou evidência consistente de possuir nível intelectual acima de 135 de QI, e como seu escore nominal foi muito acima de 135, há boas probabilidades de que seu QI correto seja maior que 150, talvez maior que 160, mas seria necessário prescrever um exame complementar, com questões mais difíceis e com validade constructo apropriada, para investigar qual o nível intelectual real dessa pessoa, já que os escores acima de 135 ficam fora do intervalo no qual o teste é capaz de medir corretamente.

Nos anos seguintes, começaram a surgir várias outras pessoas reivindicando o mesmo recorde, com escores 196-197. Isso prosseguiu até 1978, quando a situação se agravou, primeiramente com Kim Ung-Yong com escore 210, depois Marilyn vos Savant com escore 230, corrigido para 228, depois corrigido para 218, e finalmente Keith Raniere, em 1989, com escore 242. Todos baseados em testes clínicos que não são apropriados para medir corretamente acima de 135.

Um problema similar aconteceu com Langan, no Mega Test. O nível de dificuldade das questões do Mega Test é apropriado para medir corretamente até cerca de pIQ 194, equivalente a cerca de rIQ 177, que corresponde a um nível de raridade de 1 em 1.340.000. Esse é o nível de raridade realista correspondente ao teto do Mega Test. Em 2000 eu havia calculado para o Mega Test um teto de pIQ 186, equivalente a rIQ 169, portanto nível de raridade de 1 em 124.000, mas eu estava me baseando na amostra de 520 testees disponível no site do Miyaguchi. Porém essa amostra não é representativa do conjunto de mais de 4.000 pessoas examinadas com o Mega Test. Essa amostra está estratificada de 10 em 10 (10 pessoas com cada QI, quando possível). Por isso há uma concentração de escores altos acima do “correto”, fazendo com que a dificuldade dos itens, especialmente os itens mais difíceis (que é determinada pela proporção entre os erros e acertos) acabe sendo menor do que a correta, já que havendo mais pessoas com escores mais altos, haverá maior porcentagem de acertadores do que se tivesse sido considerada a amostra inteira. Outro fator é que mesmo considerando todas as mais de 4.000 pessoas avaliadas pelo Mega Test, há uma self-selection que produz uma concentração de pessoas com escores altos maior do que a observada entre a população em geral. Com esses dois ajustes complementares, refiz meus cálculos para essa norma e cheguei aos números que citei acima.

Portanto, com um escore bruto 47/48, obtido por Langan em sua segunda tentativa, o rIQ correspondente é 176, equivalente a pIQ 192, isto é, nível de raridade de aproximadamente 1 em 983.000. O nível de raridade real da Mega Society fica em torno de 1 em 62.000 e da Prometheus 1 em 8.000. Nos casos de ISPE, TNS etc., como estão numa faixa em que as distorções são menores, a raridade verdadeira também fica mais próxima da raridade teórica. 1 em 600. E no caso da Intertel e Mensa, praticamente não são afetadas. O percentil teórico 98,04% para escore pIQ 133 equivale a rIQ 131,8, portanto percentil 97,66%.

Há dois outros pontos que eu gostaria de comentar nesse texto introdutório, antes de prosseguir: sobre o significado de “inteligência” e sobre o significado de “certificado”, mas o texto ficou muito extenso e talvez seja melhor remover, bem como outras partes de algumas respostas. De qualquer modo, salvei o texto integral num arquivo separado, caso tenha alguma utilidade complementar ou para ser utilizado em outra ocasião.

Feitos esses esclarecimentos, agora podemos dar início às respostas.

Entrevista

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Quando você estava crescendo, quais eram algumas das histórias familiares proeminentes sendo contadas ao longo do tempo?

Hindemburg Melão Jr.: não me interesso muito por histórias.

Jacobsen: Essas histórias ajudaram a dar uma noção de um eu estendido ou uma noção do legado da família?

Melão Jr.: meus avós eram muito pobres, meu pai só estudou até o segundo ano do Ensino Fundamental (2º ano). Ele era excepcionalmente inteligente, criativo, tinha hipermnésia e uma grande variedade de talentos intelectuais e sinestésicos. Isso permitiu que ele saísse de uma situação de extrema pobreza e proporcionasse um ambiente satisfatório para os filhos, mas não muito além disso. O legado de meus pais é quase exclusivamente genético.

Jacobsen: Qual era a origem familiar, por exemplo, geografia, cultura, idioma e religião ou a falta dela?

Melão Jr.: meu bisavô materno era índio nativo do Brasil, meu bisavô paterno era português. Minha família era católica na época que nasci, mas posteriormente se converteram ao Kardecismo, preservando alguns hábitos católicos. Eu me tornei ateu, aproximadamente aos 11 anos, depois agnóstico aos 17 e deísta desde os 27. Tive interesse na Fé Bahá’í por algum tempo, mas não cheguei a participar de nenhuma atividade. Estou escrevendo um livro que trata de Ciência e Religião, no qual abordo alguns desses tópicos com mais detalhes.

Jacobsen: Como foi a experiência com colegas e colegas de escola quando criança e adolescente?

Melão Jr.: foi razoavelmente tranquilo, não tive problemas com bullying que pudessem ser associados a alguma discriminação por motivos cognitivos. Sofri bullying por outros motivos, porque eu tinha as sobrancelhas unidas, mas nada que chegasse ao ponto de me causar grandes constrangimentos, mesmo porque eu praticava artes marciais desde os 7 anos, por isso se eu achasse que estavam passando dos limites, eu reagia de forma enérgica e isso evitava que voltassem a me importunar.

Meus problemas foram com alguns professores, mais do que com colegas, porque eu tinha a visão incorreta de que os professores não podiam cometer erros na disciplina deles, mas no mundo real é muito diferente disso. Praticamente todos os professores cometiam vários erros todos os dias, e eu costumava apontar os erros mais graves. A maioria deles reagia positivamente a isso, alguns agradeciam pelas correções e revisavam imediatamente, mas outros não aceitavam esse tipo de correção, especialmente quando vinha de uma criança de 7 ou 8 anos. Um episódio marcante ocorreu numa aula de Geografia, quando eu tinha 9 anos, e a professora solicitou aos alunos que calculassem o tamanho do litoral brasileiro. Quando comecei a executar a tarefa, percebi que aquilo não fazia sentido, porque a medida dependeria do nível de detalhes do mapa, logo não havia uma resposta possível. Então expliquei o problema a ela, mas ela não entendeu minha explicação. Ela achou que eu estivesse me referindo ao fato de o mapa estar numa escala diferente do tamanho real. Então expliquei novamente, mas não adiantou, ela continuou sem entender, ficou irritada e acabou agindo de forma opressiva, ordenando que eu me calasse, e continuou a “ensinar” incorretamente. Foi um episódio muito desagradável. Geralmente os erros que eu identificava eram erros dos professores, mas nesse caso era muito mais grave, porque era um erro institucionalizado e aceito como se fosse correto pelas “autoridades” naquela disciplina, estava errado no livro e provavelmente em todos os outros livros, sendo ensinado incorretamente a todos os alunos. Aliás, isso continua errado até hoje, 40 anos depois, em praticamente todas as fontes sobre o assunto, inclusive na Wikipedia, Enciclopédia Britânica, IBGE, Cia World Factbook, U.S. Bureau of Labor Statistics etc. O problema não é que o número da medida esteja errado. O problema é que a pergunta não faz sentido porque não há um “comprimento” do litoral, não existe uma resposta possível com dimensão 1, porque o perímetro tem uma dimensão maior que 1 e menor que 2. Embora tenha sido desagradável, foi também um evento do qual me lembro com orgulho, por ter deduzido um dos fundamentos da Geometria Fractal, de improviso, aos 9 anos.

Jacobsen: Quais foram algumas certificações, qualificações e treinamentos profissionais obtidos por você?

Melão Jr.: a finalidade primordial das certificações deveria ser atestar que determinada pessoa ou determinada entidade cumpre quesitos que não seriam facilmente verificáveis por uma pessoa da população em geral. Por exemplo: uma pessoa sem muita instrução teria dificuldade para avaliar corretamente se um médico está capacitado para tratar da saúde dela, ou decidir se seria melhor receber tratamento de um método alopata ou de um curandeiro. Por isso há entidades reguladoras, constituídas por especialistas experientes e supostamente competentes, que estabelecem normas que teoricamente deveriam ser necessárias e suficientes para distinguir entre profissionais qualificados e não-qualificados, protegendo a população menos esclarecida contra a prestação de serviços e produtos insatisfatórios ou até mesmo nocivos. Isso é bonito na teoria, mas na prática não funciona tão bem, e a indústria das certificações acaba servindo a outros propósitos, entre os quais a reserva de mercado, o nepotismo, o culto à vaidade e egolatria.

Os certificados muitas vezes não cumprem a função para a qual foram criados, ora aprovando pessoas/entidades insuficientemente capacitado, ora deixando de aprovar pessoas sobrequalificadas. Por essa razão, mais importante e mais justo seria examinar as realizações, as competências e os méritos reais, em vez de examinar as certificações que reconheceriam esses méritos, porque os méritos têm valor intrínseco, enquanto as certificações são meras aparências que algumas vezes tentam representar os méritos, mas nem sempre acertam.

Há inclusive uma ampla indústria para comércio de certificados fraudulentos, e pouca fiscalização sobre isso. A American Biographical Institute (ABI) é famosa pela venda de certificações sem valor, e continua atuando desde 1967. Há muitas entidades similares, especializadas na impressão de certificados bonitos, promoção de cerimônias de homologação etc. Geralmente as pessoas que consomem esses produtos são vítimas ingênuas, mas também é possível que algumas pessoas comprem esses certificados cientes de que eles significam (ou não significam).

Na Wikipedia consta a seguinte descrição para a ABI:

Atualmente há várias universidades de P.O. Box distribuindo títulos de Ph.D. como água. Eu assisti a algumas declarações de pessoas que compraram esses títulos, a grande maioria dessas pessoas realmente acreditava que tinham algum valor e se mostravam emocionadas, felizes e orgulhosas ao receber o título. Mas talvez nem todos sejam ingênuos e alguns compreendam que esses títulos não representam algo real, mas usam isso com finalidades obscuras. Há um membro da mensa brasil que possui mais de 50 títulos acadêmicos por uma universidade de P.O. Box, fundada em 2021, mas no site da “instituição” alega ter sido fundada em 2006. Acho engraçado, e ao mesmo tempo triste, que os jornalistas que publicam as matérias sobre isso não desconfiam que seja estranho uma pessoa de 40 anos, que tinha apenas 1 B.Sc. até 2020, de repente passou a ter mais de 50 títulos acadêmicos em 2022, inclusive vários Ph.Ds. e pós-doutorados. Além dos certificados comprados, essa pessoa também afirma que a TNS é a sociedade de alto QI mais exclusiva do mundo, ele usa o QI dele com desvio padrão 24 para comparar com um “QI” fictício 160 atribuído a Einstein, entre outras coisas, e os jornalistas publicam tudo sem conferir.

Há também pessoas que compram esses certificados, sabendo que não têm valor, sem a intenção de fazer uso desonesto, talvez como um enfeite de mesa ou algo assim. Por exemplo, Chris Harding é cliente da ABI, possui vários títulos adquiridos dessa empresa, conforme ele mesmo declara em seu perfil na OlympIQ Society. Harding tem alguns méritos reais, porque mesmo que o SB não avalie corretamente acima de 140, é reconhecido que esse teste avalia algum tipo de habilidade misturado com inteligência, e poucas pessoas alcançam o escore de Harding nesse exame. Portanto, embora alguns certificados dele sejam comprados, outros são baseados em méritos reais e emitidos por instituições sérias, como os relacionados a seus recordes de QI e suas filiações a sociedades de alto QI. Entretanto, mesmo os certificados idôneos, que tentam representar méritos verdadeiros, muitas vezes atestam algo que não é uma boa representação da realidade. Conforme comentei no início, o escore 197 ou 196 no SB não poderia ser interpretado da maneira como foi, e os laudos oficiais e os certificados emitidos estão dizendo algo que representa uma crença coletiva, mas muito diferente da realidade concreta.

Harding é muito inteligente, mas não com base no escore que ele obteve no SB, e sim com base em várias opiniões dele sobre diferentes assuntos. Os méritos reais dele estão em sua essência, em suas ações, seus pensamentos, não em pedaços de papel.

A partir do momento em que a pessoa canaliza seus pensamentos e suas ações para produzir algo concreto, ela passa a compartilhar com o mundo sua essência, disseminando conhecimento e sabedoria, ou disseminando futilidade e desinformação, dependendo da qualidade daquilo que ela compartilha. E a percepção que as outras pessoas têm sobre aquilo que ela compartilhou dependerá não apenas da qualidade do que ela exteriorizou, mas também da sensibilidade e perspicácia de quem recebe a informação. Se uma pessoa brilhante disseminar conhecimentos de um nível muito elevado entre um público muito fútil, o valor desse conhecimento não será reconhecido e ela não terá certificações, nem prêmios, nem qualquer reconhecimento, enquanto outras pessoas que estejam disseminando conhecimentos vulgares e rasos, compatíveis com o público que o recebe e que emite as certificações, essas pessoas serão aclamadas e glorificadas.

As pessoas não são premiadas ou certificadas por suas realizações serem grandiosas, mas sim por suas realizações serem percebidas como grandiosas pelos membros dos comitês responsáveis pela homologação de prêmios e certificações. Além disso, há uma série de outros vieses de caráter político, social, racial, etc., que interferem nas decisões dos membros dos comitês, tornando as certificações e os prêmios ainda mais destoantes do objetivo que deveriam ter.

Esse efeito ocorre, por exemplo, em alguns testes de Cooijmans, em que o teste não mede o QI, mas sim quão semelhante é o QI da pessoa examinada em comparação ao QI do Cooijmans. Se a pessoa tiver o mesmo QI de Cooijmans, ela terá escore máximo. Se ela tiver QI muito maior ou muito menor que o QI de Cooijmans, o escore dela será baixo. Na questão sobre testes de QI, comento mais detalhadamente esse problema.

Citarei alguns poucos exemplos marcantes, alguns bastante conhecidos, mas vale a pena rememorá-los. Creio que um dos mais trágicos e marcantes seja o de Galileu, que em vez de ser premiado por suas notáveis contribuições à compreensão do Universo, ele foi severamente punido. Aliás, sua filha Celeste acabou sendo punida em lugar dele. Nos tempos mais recentes, um dos casos que acho muito tristes é o de George Zweig, que desenvolveu sua Teoria dos Ases na mesma época em que Murray Gell-Mann desenvolveu a Teoria dos Quarks. Ambas eram essencialmente iguais, entretanto a revista para a qual Zweig enviou seu artigo se recusou a publicá-lo, enquanto o artigo de Gell-Mann lhe rendeu o prêmio Nobel de Física. Há pelo menos 45 casos conhecidos de prêmios Nobel polêmicos, de pessoas que receberam sem merecer ou mereciam, mas não receberam. O prêmio mais respeitado do mundo está profanado por dezenas de injustiças, talvez centenas, se considerar as que não chegaram a ser descobertas. Inclusive Einstein é uma das maiores vítimas, já que merecia ter recebido 5 prêmios Nobel, entretanto recebeu apenas 1, por motivos raciais, xenofóbicos, nazistas etc.

Creio que agora eu possa responder a essa questão, dividindo-a em duas partes:

Prêmios e certificações.
Méritos até o momento não reconhecidos.

Tenho poucos certificados. Quando eu era jovem, tinha o hábito de colocar troféus e medalhas de Xadrez, Artes Marciais, Educação Artística etc. numa estante, mas numa das mudanças de endereço, um de meus troféus quebrou. Inicialmente fiquei triste, porque eram importantes para mim. Mas ao refletir melhor sobre o “desastre”, percebi que na verdade não tinham nenhuma importância. O que realmente importava eram os méritos que me levaram à conquista daqueles prêmios, bem como alguns méritos que não chegaram a ser premiados. Havia também casos nos quais eu não tinha mérito algum, mas havia sido premiado devido a alguma fatalidade da sorte. Isso não significa que eu não seja uma pessoa vaidosa. Eu sou, mas aprendi que na maioria das vezes não se recebe nada ou quase nada por algo valoroso, enquanto outras vezes se recebe mais do que o justo por algo de pouco valor ou até mesmo sem valor. Infelizmente o mundo recompensa muito mais as aparências do que a essência.

Um de meus poucos certificados é o de detentor do recorde mundial de mate anunciado mais longo em simultâneas de Xadrez às cegas, registrado no Guinness Book de 1998. Talvez algumas pessoas não estejam familiarizadas com o significado de “Xadrez às cegas” e “mate anunciado”. Esse vídeo ajuda a entender a dinâmica de uma simultânea às cegas: https://youtu.be/LUo89Cl9FPY. É um vídeo antigo e de baixa qualidade, mas para exemplificar o mecanismo do evento, creio que seja apropriado.

Farei uma descrição resumida: numa simultânea, uma pessoa (simultanista) joga ao mesmo tempo contra vários oponentes (simultaneados), cada um dos quais com seu próprio tabuleiro. É diferente de um jogo em consulta, em que vários jogadores podem se consultar mutuamente num único tabuleiro e decidem sobre o melhor lance por votação. Numa simultânea, cada simultaneado tem seu próprio tabuleiro e cada partida segue seu próprio rumo.

Nesse caso, como se trata de uma simultânea às cegas, o simultanista não tem acesso visual a nenhum dos tabuleiros, nem às peças, nem às súmulas, nem a qualquer tipo de registro dos lances ou das posições. Em nenhum momento o simultanista pode olhar para nenhum dos tabuleiros, nem solicitar qualquer tipo de informação que o ajude a se lembrar das posições das peças, nem de qualquer peça específica, nem que o ajude a se lembrar da ordem dos lances, nem qualquer outro tipo de informação que possa de algum modo auxiliar sobre as partidas. A posição de cada uma das peças em cada um dos tabuleiros fica registrada exclusivamente na memória do simultanista e essas posições são atualizadas mentalmente a cada lance. Além disso, a cada lance o simultanista precisa fazer os cálculos das variantes e sub-variantes necessários para tomar suas decisões sobre o lance a ser executado, tomando cuidado para não confundir as lembranças das variantes calculadas com as lembranças das variantes efetivamente jogadas, entre outros cuidados.

O jogo se desenvolve da seguinte forma: o simultanista permanece de costas para os tabuleiros e comunica seus lances a um assistente (speaker), que executa cada lance do simultanista no respectivo tabuleiro. Em seguida, o simultaneado daquele tabuleiro executa sua resposta sobre o tabuleiro e o speaker comunica verbalmente ao simultanista qual foi o lance executado por aquele simultaneado. Então o speaker passa ao tabuleiro seguinte, onde novamente o simultanista declara seu lance e este é executado nesse tabuleiro pelo speaker etc.

Há versões mais “fáceis” (ou menos difíceis), nas quais o jogador às cegas pode ter acesso a uma lista com todos os lances anotados, como nos torneios de Melody Amber, em que, além de serem jogos individuais, em vez de simultâneos, os competidores podem também visualizar um tabuleiro vazio, o que facilita os cálculos e reduz os riscos de se esquecer da posição de alguma peça. Mas nas regras mais rigorosas, como no meu recorde de 1997 que foi registrado no Guinness, não era permitido ter acesso ao histórico dos lances, nem ver um tabuleiro vazio, nem qualquer outro tipo de auxílio similar. É equivalente a estar todo o tempo com os olhos vendados, do início ao fim do evento.

Esse recorde estabelecido em 1997 foi numa simultânea às cegas a 9 tabuleiros, num dos quais anunciei mate em 12 lances. O rating médio de meus oponentes foi estimado em cerca de 1400. Obtive 7 vitórias, 1 empate e 1 derrota.

Os recordistas anteriores eram: Joseph Henry Blackburne (mate em 8 lances numa simultânea às cegas a 10 tabuleiros, no ano 1877), Samuel Rosenthal (mate em 8 lances numa simultânea às cegas a 4 tabuleiros, no ano 1885) e Garry Kasparov (mate em 8 lances numa simultânea às cegas a 8 tabuleiros, no ano 1985). Houve também um evento em 1899, no qual Harry Nelson Pillsbury anunciou mate em 8 numa simultânea às cegas a 10 tabuleiros, mas houve erro de contagem. Seguindo a sequência ditada por Pillsbury, o mate se produzia em 7 lances.

No caso de Kasparov, há alguns detalhes que precisam ser esclarecidos: ele jogou uma simultânea às cegas contra os 8 melhores computadores da época, inclusive o campeão mundial Mephisto Amsterdam 68000 RISC 12MHz. O rating médio dessas máquinas era cerca de 1500 e os melhores chegavam a 1800. O melhor computador do mundo em 1985 era justamente o Mephisto Amsterdam, cujo rating divulgado pelo fabricante era 2265, mas posteriormente foi medido pela SSDF em 1827 (com base em 1020 partidas). Na partida contra Mephisto Amsterdam, Kasparov jogou uma bela combinação com sequência de mate em 8 lances, mas não há registro sobre ele ter anunciado o mate. De qualquer modo, como ele sacrificou uma Torre e duas peças no início da combinação, está claro que ele calculou corretamente a sequência inteira.

Em 2005, a rede Globo fez uma reportagem para o programa “Fantástico” celebrando os 100 anos dos testes de QI, e fui indicado como a pessoa com QI mais alto do Brasil, no nível de 1 em 200 milhões. Esse é um exemplo de “reconhecimento” que eu não tenho certeza se foi corretamente atribuído. Na pergunta sobre QI, comento esse assunto com mais detalhes.

Recentemente, o amigo Domagoj Kutle me honrou com um amável convite para publicar em sua excelente revista DEUS VULT, e solicitou que eu enviasse também uma pequena biografia. Minha namorada Tamara gentilmente me ajudou a elaborar esse material, incluindo algumas de minhas realizações. Creio que isso se encaixaria aqui, por isso vou colar o texto:

Melao mini-bio, by Tamara Rodrigues:

Hindemburg Melao Jr. was born in Brazil, in a family with few resources, and only attended school until the 11th grade, having learned almost completely as self-taught.

In 1998 he was registered in the Guinness Book as the holder of the world record for longest announced checkmate in blindfold simultaneous chess games. (video)

In 2007, Melao solved a problem that had been unsatisfactorily solved for 22 years, by creating “Melao index”, an index to measure performance adjusted at risk that was more accurate, more predictive and conceptually better founded than the traditional indexes of William Sharpe (Nobel prize 1990) and Franco Modigliani (Nobel 1985). (video)

In 2020 Hindemburg presented a study showing that Jupiter’s Great Red Spot cannot be 350+ years old, as was believed. The correct age is around 144 years old. (interview)

In 2004 Baran Yonter, founder of Pars Society (IQ>180, sd=16), estimated that Melao IQ should be above 200 (sd=16).

In 2009 Melao was nominated by Albert Frank to participate in a John Hallenborg project with people whose IQ is at the rarity level above 1 in 1 million.

In 2000 Melao updated and extended his “Alpha Tests” that he had created in 1991, added new questions, and created the Sigma Test.

In 2022 he extended the Sigma Test by creating the extended version.

Detailed bio of Melao (documents, videos, interviews, articles, reports etc.) at: https://www.sigmasociety.net/hm

Embora eu tenha praticado Artes Marciais por vários anos (talvez ~11 anos se somar todos os períodos ativos), não cheguei a obter nenhuma certificação, porque o tempo foi distribuído entre muitas modalidades diferentes e não cheguei à faixa preta em nenhuma delas. Mas cheguei a alcançar um nível técnico razoável. Para armas curtas, talvez eu esteja no percentil 99,9% e no caso específico de nunchaku, talvez 99,999%. Esse é um vídeo de 2016, eu já estava meio velho e enferrujado https://youtu.be/jCw–5H34x4. No mesmo canal há também vídeos com outras armas (espada, tonfa, kama, sam-tien-kuan etc.).

Em 2020 fui convidado para um grupo dos 26 melhores astrofotógrafos planetários do Brasil. Embora não haja certificado para isso, fiquei muito feliz porque é um de meus hobbies favoritos. Eu gostaria de aproveitar essa oportunidade para agradecer ao amigo Vinícius Martins, que me ensinou quase tudo que sei sobre processamento de imagens planetárias, creio que em pouco tempo ele será um dos 5 melhores astrofotógrafos do mundo, ele combina 3 elementos fundamentais para isso: um talento extraordinário, um amor imenso por essa atividade e um profundo conhecimento que se amplia e se atualiza constantemente.

Entre as certificações que não possuo, uma das mais interessantes é a de CFA, conferida a gestores de investimentos. É interessante porque entre 2006 e 2010 desenvolvi um sistema de inteligência artificial para operar no Mercado Financeiro que entre 2015 e 2020, quando foi utilizado por um fundo europeu, conquistou 21 prêmios internacionais de alta performance nos rankings da Barclay’s Hedge, Preqin e IASG, sendo também o segundo melhor sistema de investimentos do mundo entre 2011 e 2016. Entretanto, eu fui proibido pela CVM de prestar serviços de gestão porque não possuo o certificado CFA. Em 2014, foi realizado um abaixo-assinado para pleitear que a CVM (entidade reguladora do Mercado de Capitais no Brasil) emitisse para mim um certificado em caráter extraordinário. A reivindicação se apoiava na redação da Instrução 306 da CVM e no fato de que meu sistema tinha acumulado mais que o dobro do lucro do fundo que ocupava o primeiro lugar (à frente de 282 outros fundos, todos administrados por gestores certificados) no ranking da InfoMoney, maior ranking de fundos do Brasil. Entre as pessoas que assinaram a petição em meu favor, houve vários professores universitários, vários gestores profissionais e vários membros de sociedades de alto QI, inclusive Dany Provost de Giga Society. Entretanto, a reivindicação não foi aceita e continuo não possuindo esse certificado. Aliás, os dois gestores mais famosos do mundo, Warren Buffett e George Soros, também não possuem certificado de gestor, então estou em boa companhia. Buffett resolveu esse problema incorporando uma empresa que compra outras empresas, em vez de administrar um fundo. Soros resolveu o problema colocando seu amigo Jimmy Rogers como gestos (Jimmy possuía a certificação necessária), eu resolvi o problema comercializando licenças de uso de meu sistema, com um limite de volume de aplicação para cada licença e um período de renovação.

Entre as certificações que não possuo, posso incluir também CNH, embora eu dirija fora da Lei (sou praticamente um gângster). Eu deixei de ir à escola no 5º ano, depois eu retornei algumas vezes, por pressão de meus pais. Eu voltava, continuava matriculado alguns meses, esgotava minha paciência, parava novamente, meus pais me pressionavam a voltar, eu novamente voltava etc. Cheguei a concluir o ensino médio (11º ano) e entrei na faculdade de Física, mas não gostei do curso e parei definitivamente depois de 2 meses. Na primeira semana de aula, eu revisei o livro de Física I e apontei mais de 200 erros, enviei meus comentários ao autor, com uma nota introdutória tentando ser diplomático, para que ele não se sentisse ofendido, mas ele nunca respondeu. Também apontei dois erros conceituais graves nos métodos utilizados no laboratório de Física, que deveriam impactar nos resultados dos experimentos; um deles, sobre as bolas de papel amassado, é o mesmo “experimento” realizado no Departamento de Matemática da Universidade de Yale, onde também cometem o mesmo erro. Nesse caso, o Prof. Dr. Paulo Reginaldo Pascholati teve uma conduta honrada, recebeu com humildade minhas críticas, fez alguns experimentos para investigar se o erro que eu indicava era procedente, constatou que eu tinha razão e, na aula seguinte, ele assumiu publicamente o erro. Achei a conduta dele exemplar, nesse aspecto, entretanto a apostila não foi corrigida e continuaram a fazer o experimento incorretamente.

Enfim, decidi que universidade era perda de tempo e seria mais produtivo estudar por conta própria, mas não é tão simples assim, e essa decisão se mostrou questionável em algumas ocasiões. O distanciamento da carreira acadêmica tem alguns aspectos positivos, outros negativos. Um dos aspectos positivos é que posso selecionar minha própria grade curricular, seguir meu próprio ritmo e me aprofundar o quanto quiser em cada tópico. Um dos aspectos negativos é que se torna mais difícil ter acesso a bibliografia satisfatória e mais difícil ainda publicar em periódicos indexados. Com isso, praticamente coloquei a mim mesmo numa situação de ostracismo.

Portanto certificados são úteis, mas é importante compreender as limitações e as distorções que podem apresentar, para não correr o risco de tratá-las de forma burocrática, a ponto de serem colocados acima da real capacidade verificada empiricamente de forma contínua. Certificados refletem as opiniões de pessoas ou de instituições que muitas vezes não estão suficientemente qualificadas para fazer avaliações corretas sobre os méritos e para decidir com imparcialidade. No exemplo do CFA, as certificações são literalmente distribuídas com base em critérios excessivamente condescendentes, que nem de longe são suficientes para selecionar as pessoas qualificadas ao exercício da função de gestor, por isso mais de 95% dos gestores certificados geram prejuízos a seus clientes. Talvez esse efeito seja mais notável no Mercado de Capitais do que em qualquer outra atividade, mas também ocorre frequentemente em Jornalismo, Publicidade, Administração etc., em que algumas pessoas sem formação nessas disciplinas eventualmente podem ser mais qualificadas do que pessoas certificadas, mas para proteger os menos competentes, são criadas leis que impedem as empresas de contratar os mais competentes, usando certificados como instrumento de discriminação e de apologia à mediocridade.

Escrevi uma versão extensa dessa resposta, na qual discuto algumas falhas no sistema educacional no Brasil e no mundo, justificando porque me afastei da vida acadêmica. Também aponto e analiso os erros cometidos por Richard Lynn em seu estudo sobre os QIs em diferentes países e explico porquê não seria correto tentar justificada o problema educacional no Brasil com base no suposto baixo QI médio da população, bem como reviso a estimativa para o QI médio de alguns países, inclusive Guiné Equatorial, Israel e Brasil. O texto ficou com 10 páginas A4, por isso achei melhor colocar como um apêndice.

Jacobsen: Qual é o propósito dos testes de inteligência para você?

Melão Jr.: o atributo mais importante dos seres vivos é a inteligência. Sem inteligência não existiria Ética, Leis, Ciência ou Arte. Para delegar corretamente as tarefas mais importantes às pessoas mais qualificadas, é necessário identificar e ranquear corretamente as pessoas de acordo com as habilidades de cada uma. Por isso medir corretamente a inteligência e utilizar os resultados como critério para atribuir cargos e tarefas, conforme o nível de competência, é extremamente importante, mas infelizmente não é o que acontece. Há dois grandes problemas:

O primeiro é que o mundo é dominado pelo nepotismo;
O segundo é que não existem testes de inteligência apropriados para medir corretamente nos níveis mais altos.

No final do século XIX, os primeiros testes de Galton e Cattell não conseguiam medir satisfatoriamente a inteligência, mas foi uma tentativa interessante. A hipótese de que a velocidade dos reflexos, a acuidade visual, a acuidade auditiva etc. poderiam ser indicativos relevantes do nível intelectual se mostrou inadequada. Em 1904, Binet e Otis conseguiram resolver esse problema, utilizando questões que exigiam a o uso combinado de várias habilidades cognitivas – em vez de tentar medir aptidões primárias, como fez Galton –, mas os testes de Binet só mediam corretamente até cerca de 140. As tentativas de Terman, em 1921, de utilizar os testes de Binet para selecionar futuros gênios falharam. Entre as 1528 crianças selecionadas com QI acima de 135 (mais de 70 com QI acima de 177), nenhuma ganhou um Nobel nem qualquer prêmio similar, enquanto duas das crianças não selecionadas ganharam prêmios Nobel. O teste funcionava muito bem até cerca de 130, as crianças selecionadas publicaram mais livros, mais artigos, tiveram maior renda média do que as crianças do outro grupo, porém nos níveis mais elevados, o teste falhou e deixou escapar algumas das crianças mais brilhantes. Os resultados desse estudo tiveram um efeito extremamente deletério, prejudicando a credibilidade nos testes de QI aos olhos do público em geral e aos olhos de muitos expoentes intelectuais de áreas científicas, tecnológicas, culturais e educacionais, por isso seria importante esclarecer os limites de até que ponto esses testes podem medir corretamente, para que não se crie expectativas irreais e para que não sejam aplicados incorretamente fora de desses limites.

Em 1973, Kevin Langdon criou o LAIT (Langdon Adult Intelligence Test) e com isso conseguiu elevar o nível de dificuldade até perto de 170 e a validade de constructo até 150; em 1985, Ronald Hoeflin deu mais um passo importante com o Mega Test, elevando o nível de dificuldade até cerca de pIQ 190 e validade de constructo até 170, e essas contribuições ampliaram os horizontes de aplicação dos testes de inteligência, que antes funcionavam bem até o nível aproximada de 1 em 100, enquanto os novos testes passaram a funcionar até 1 em 100.000. Por outro lado, a partir dos anos 1990, começaram a surgir alguns testes de fantasia com tetos nominais que chegavam a 250, embora o teto real de dificuldade não chegasse a 180 e o teto de validade de construto fique em torno de 150, como o ISIS Test de Paul Cooijmans. Alguns desses testes de fantasia continuam surgindo até hoje e isso agrava o preconceito nutrido por muitas pessoas contra os testes de QI, porque se a pessoa tem um pensamento crítico refinado e uma atitude cética, ela percebe que há inconsistências em resultados como o de Feynman (123) e Rosner (193, 196, 198 etc.). Ambos são muito inteligentes, e os problemas que Feynman resolveu são mais difíceis que os problemas que Rosner resolveu, o que poderia ser interpretado como indicativo de que Feynman fosse mais inteligente, então como é possível que um sistema padronizado sério de avaliação atribua 190+ para Rosner e 123 para Feynman? Alguma coisa obviamente não está certa nisso, e as pessoas geralmente não identificam exatamente onde está o erro, por isso concluem, de forma generalizada, que todos os testes de QI não funcionam, ou sequer elas sabem que existe mais de um tipo de teste de QI. Por isso o esclarecimento sobre qual é o intervalo no qual cada tipo de teste funciona contribui para combater esse tipo de preconceito. Se o QI verdadeiro de Feynman, com base na dificuldade, complexidade e profundidade dos problemas que ele resolveu sobre eletrodinâmica quântica, superfluidos etc. fosse colocado na mesma escala em que é representado o QI de Rosner, o QI correto de Feynman estaria perto de 235. E para explicar esse número acima de 200, teria antes que mostrar que a distribuição dos escores não é gaussiana etc. etc. Então aquela aparente inconsistência inicial desapareceria e tudo ficaria mais claro e mais lógico. O mesmo acontece para o QI fictício de Einstein de 160, cujo valor correto, se colocado na mesma escala dos escores medidos pelos testes, seria perto de 250.

Em 2000, o Sigma Test trouxe soluções aos 3 problemas citados no texto introdutório, tendo como foco principal a validade de constructo, utilizando questões baseadas em problemas do mundo real que exigem uma combinação de pensamento convergente e divergente em diferentes níveis de dificuldade, complexidade e profundidade, compatíveis com os níveis de QI a serem medidos. Mais recentemente, o Sigma Test Extended elevou o teto de dificuldade até cerca de pIQ 225 e de validade de constructo até cerca de 210. Entretanto, numa população com 7,9 bilhões, a pessoa adulta mais inteligente do mundo deve ter rIQ em torno de 201, equivalente a cerca de pIQ 245, portanto bastante fora dos limites que o STE pode medir. Apesar disso, para algumas das 100 ou 200 pessoas mais inteligentes vivas, o STE poderia fornecer medidas fidedignas da inteligência real, com boa validade de constructo nesse patamar, além de oferecer um desafio intelectual estimulante. Isso consertaria algumas lendas urbanas disseminadas em várias fontes, como a de que o QI médio dos ganhadores do Nobel em Ciência é “apenas” 154. Com o uso de um teste adequadamente padronizado, com nível de dificuldade apropriado e boa validade de constructo, o QI médio dos ganhadores do Nobel em Ciência deve ficar entre 170 e 190. Com o uso de testes apropriados é possível reposicionar corretamente os escores, tanto para cima quanto para baixo. Isso também venceria alguns preconceitos contra os testes de QI, porque uma das razões para rejeição se deve justamente aos resultados bizarros para Feynman (123), Fischer (123*), Kasparov (123, 135), Shockley (<135), Alvarez (<135), irmã de Feynman (124) etc., porque isso tira a credibilidade dos testes, já que é muito mais provável que esses escores estejam errados do que essas pessoas terem QI abaixo do nível de 1 em mil, quando na verdade devem estar acima de 1 em 1 milhão (e Feynman perto de 1 em 1 bilhão). Quando podemos mostrar que os testes são capazes de medir corretamente também nos níveis muito altos e fornecer resultados realistas, consistentes com as realizações dessas pessoas em problemas do mundo real, consegue-se restaurar a credibilidade para testes de inteligência como instrumentos sérios e confiáveis, capazes de desempenhar uma das funções mais importantes que é justamente fazer prognósticos precoces de genialidade. [* Embora muitas fontes mencionem o QI 187, 181 ou 180 para Fischer, seus laudos de 1958 mostram um escore 123]

Assim, embora não haja testes capazes de medir corretamente no nível necessário para apontar a pessoa mais inteligente viva, ou ranquear as 10 mais inteligentes, houve um progresso substancial desde os primeiros testes de Binet, e se Terman estivesse vivo hoje e desenvolvesse o mesmo estudo de 1921, mas começando em 2000, e se ele utilizasse o STE em vez do SB, muito provavelmente as crianças mais inteligentes estariam todas (ou quase todas) selecionadas em seu grupo, e os resultados subsequentes teriam sido confirmatórios inclusive nos níveis mais altos, corroborando a tese que ele defendia, de que é possível prever precocemente a genialidade, mas não com os testes que existiam naquela época. A tese, em si, estava correta, assim como o helicóptero de Leonardo Da Vinci, mas a tecnologia ainda precisava avançar um pouco mais para que a tese dispusesse dos subsídios necessários para ser testada adequadamente.

Jacobsen: Quando a alta inteligência foi descoberta para você?

Melão Jr.: Acho difícil determinar isso com precisão. A primeira vez que fui examinado em clínica, tinha 3 anos, mas aos 6 meses de idade eu conversava com razoável fluência, então havia algumas evidências mais precoces.

Jacobsen: Quando você pensa nas maneiras pelas quais os gênios do passado foram ridicularizados, vilipendiados e condenados, se não mortos, ou elogiados, lisonjeados, plagiados e reverenciados, o que parece ser a razão para as reações extremas e o tratamento de gênios? Muitos vivos hoje parecem tímidos diante das câmeras – muitos, nem todos.

Melão Jr.: não creio que seja um problema do passado. Continua presente em muitas culturas primitivas, como no Brasil e em vários países da África. A grande maioria da população adota uma postura de hostilidade, inveja e boicote não apenas contra gênios, mas contra qualquer pessoa que possa estar obtendo algum tipo de sucesso. Recentemente minha namorada me mostrou um vídeo de Ozires Silva, que foi Ministro da Infraestrutura e presidente da Petrobrás. Ele comenta que durante um jantar no qual estavam presentes alguns membros do comitê do Nobel (link par ao vídeo: https://youtu.be/m3u-E5XdzZ4) ele perguntou por que eles achavam que o Brasil não tinha nenhum ganhador do Nobel, já que vários países latino-americanos com menor população e menor PIB tinham inclusive mais de um Nobel. Um dos membros do comitê comentou “vocês, brasileiros, são destruidores de heróis”. Infelizmente isso é um fato que continua presente em nosso cotidiano.

Na época que eu conheci as comunidades de alto QI, 1999, alguns nomes famosos eram William James Sidis, Marilyn vos Savant, Chris Langan, Rick Rosner, Grady Towers etc. Langan era segurança numa boate, Rosner era modelo nudista e também trabalhou algum tempo como segurança, Grady Towers era segurança em um parque e teve uma morte trágica e prematura em 2000. Sidis passou suas últimas décadas de vida em subempregos e colecionando placas de carro. Marilyn foi colunista de uma revista e conseguiu um padrão de vida razoável com isso, bem como um bom prestígio e reconhecimento fora das comunidades de alto QI, e também muitos invejosos odiosos. Com exceção de Marilyn, as outras pessoas que citei ganhavam um salário mínimo e ainda passavam parte do tempo sem emprego, enquanto muitas pessoas são contratadas para ocupar cargos que elas nem sequer estão qualificadas, ganhando pequenas fortunas, além de prestígio e reconhecimento.

Essa situação é muito triste. Embora Langan não fosse o homem mais inteligente das Américas, como ele reivindicava em 2000, ou da história do mundo, como ele começou a reivindicar algum tempo depois, ele é indiscutivelmente uma pessoa muito mais inteligente e mais competente do que 99% dos Ph.Ds. em qualquer área e mais do que 99,9% dos CEOs das empresas. Ele talvez não tivesse uma cultura tão vasta e os conhecimentos especializados necessários para resolver grandes problemas científicos, mas certamente ele daria melhores soluções administrativas e políticas do que qualquer presidente que os EUA já tiveram. Eu não sei se ele seria o melhor presidente, porque ser um excelente presidente não se resume a resolver problemas. Ele precisaria também ter sensibilidade, empatia, bondade, honestidade e outros atributos. Mas geralmente muitas pessoas têm esses atributos no nível necessário. O que normalmente falta a elas é exatamente a inteligência. Eu não estou dizendo que Langan ou Rosner deveriam ser presidentes. Mas, ponderando sobre pontos positivos e negativos, eu apostaria neles como presidentes melhores que a média dos presidentes recentes.

A perseguição e a opressão algumas vezes podem acontecer de maneira silenciosa, e isso costuma ser até pior, porque é mais difícil de detectar e combater. Como é possível que uma pessoa com o potencial intelectual de Langan não tenha sido descoberto por uma grande empresa que o contratasse pagando um salário milionário para que ele resolvesse os problemas internos de modo a gerar mais lucro para a empresa do que outras pessoas menos competentes trabalhando na mesma função? Há erros grotescos nisso. A grande maioria das empresas está contaminada por multidões de incompetentes e trapaceiros, que em vez de contratar e promover com base nos méritos, fazem quase exatamente o contrário, porque se sentem ameaçados por quem é mais competente do que eles. Isso é um completo desastre não só para as empresas nas quais eles trabalham, mas para toda a harmonia da civilização. Na Noruega, na Suécia, na Holanda, na Finlândia, na Suíça, na Dinamarca etc. esses problemas são muito raros, mas no brasil isso é uma constante que afunda o país. Nos EUA talvez o problema não seja tão grave quanto é no brasil, mas quando olhamos para os casos de Langan e Rosner, fica claro que há falhas graves na atuação dos headhunters, deixando de contratar algumas das pessoas mais capacitadas do país, que passaram a maior parte da vida em atividades subprofissionais. Eu citei os exemplos de Langan e Rosner, mas o mesmo vale para um grande número de pessoas com QI muito acima da média, que estão trabalhando em atividades incompatíveis, com rendimentos muito abaixo do que merecem, produzindo menos do que deveriam, enquanto pessoas muito menos capacitadas estão em cargos elevados, cometendo erros absurdos e afundando empresas ou até mesmo afundando nações inteiras. Minha namorada é engenheira ambiental e excepcionalmente inteligente, ela trabalhou numa empresa de grande porte onde ela resolvia problemas que economizavam mensalmente dezenas de milhares de dólares cortando desperdício, além de contribuir para reduzir a poluição. Uma das soluções envolvendo a substituição de um duto gerou uma economia de alguns milhões. Se ela fosse colocada num cargo mais elevado, no qual a atuação dela tivesse maior alcance, poderia poupar dezenas ou centenas de milhões para empresa. Entretanto, ela foi convidada para participar de um esquema de corrupção, ela se recusou, a pessoa que fez o convite ficou com receio de que ela os denunciasse e a demitiu.

Em “A República”, Platão comentava sobre a importância de que os reis fossem filósofos e os filósofos fossem reis. Isso me parece o mais natural, substituindo “filósofos” por “competentes” o que geralmente é quase sinônimo de “inteligentes”. E substituindo “reis” por um significado moderno equivalente, que pode ser CEO de grandes empresas, prefeitos, governadores e presidentes. Nos EUA há vários mecanismos para descobrir e orientar crianças e jovens talentosos, há vários programas especializados. De acordo com Eunice Maria Lima Soriano de Alencar, nos anos 1970 havia mais de 1200 programas educacionais para crianças superdotadas nos EUA. Como é possível que esses programas tenham “deixado escapar” Langan e Rosner? Como uma entidade respeitada como instituto Hollingworth não os descobriu? Não é possível que eles não tenham se destacado na escola. No brasil eu acharia normal isso, o brasil deixa quase todos os grandes talentos escorrerem pelo ralo. Mas nos EUA acho surpreendente que isso tenha acontecido. Há registros de que Langan teve escore perfeito no SAT e recebeu bolsas de estudo em duas universidades, mas parece que ele perdeu a bolsa porque chegou atrasado um dia, porque seu carro quebrou. Isso é bastante ridículo. Mesmo que ele faltasse em todas as aulas, provavelmente ele aprenderia mais e melhor do que 99% dos colegas que estivessem presentes em todas as aulas. As universidades não concederam bolsas como reconhecimento pela genialidade dele, mas como uma “esmola”, com condições restritivas de retirar a esmola se ele não cumprisse determinados critérios.

Esse desperdício de grandes talentos é um dos principais motivos que leva um país à ruína. A China está alcançando e superando os EUA em grande parte porque a China tem investido mais seriamente e mais pesadamente em educação especial de crianças talentosas, enquanto os EUA estão cometendo erros grosseiros como esse, deixando que grandes mentes como a de Langan, Rosner, Towers sejam desperdiçadas em trabalhos como segurança de boate ou de parque, enquanto pessoas menos capacitadas lideram grandes empresas, governam cidades e estados.

O nepotismo não é um fenômeno exclusivamente familiar. É muito mais abrangente, levando à colocação de pessoas subqualificadas em cargos que deveriam ser ocupados por outras com mais méritos. Não há otimização na delegação de cargos, responsabilidades, tarefas, incentivos, prêmios etc. E essa ausência de otimização é obviamente penalizada. Concorrentes que otimizam melhor isso, assumem a liderança.

No Brasil a situação é muito mais grave, porque não existem tais programas. Houve algumas poucas iniciativas isoladas, que chegavam a atender poucas dezenas de crianças, mas que não duraram muito tempo.

Os testes de inteligência são extremamente importantes para serem utilizados nesses processos de descobertas de talentos. Ainda que os testes apresentem várias falhas, é melhor que sejam aplicados na medida do possível, com os erros e remendos, do que se deixassem de ser aplicados e essa calamidade se perpetuasse. Algumas das gigantes de tecnologia criam seus próprios testes para selecionar seus colaboradores, geralmente esses testes não são tão bons quanto os hrIQts, mas pelo menos eles demonstram compreender a necessidade disso. Embora estejam remendando mal o problema, pelo menos estão tentando fazer algo para identificar jovens talentos e engajá-los em projetos relevantes, nos quais possam contribuir para o desenvolvimento da Ciência, da Tecnologia e para o bem comum, portanto essas empresas agem melhor que o governo em relação a isso.

Jacobsen: Quem parece ser os maiores gênios da história para você?

Melão Jr.: Leonardo, Newton, Aristóteles, Gauss, Ramanujan, Arquimedes, Euler e Einstein.

É difícil julgar os casos de Hawking, Galois, Faraday, Al-Hazen e outros, porque Hawking teve que enfrentar dificuldades extremas, é difícil saber qual teria sido a magnitude de seu legado se ele não tivesse adoecido. É possível que Hawking seja uma das 5 ou 10 pessoas mais inteligentes da História, embora sua obra efetiva não seja uma das 100 mais expressivas, por não ser uma representação justa de seu potencial, pois ele infelizmente não teve a oportunidade de “competir” em condições de igualdade com outros grandes gênios. Galois nasceu numa condição muito privilegiada culturalmente, intelectualmente e economicamente, mas infelizmente morreu muito jovem. Isso não significa que ele teria produzido muito mais se tivesse vivido até os 90 ou 100 anos, porque analisando a vida de outros grandes matemáticos e cientistas, a maioria dos trabalhos mais importantes que realizaram foi antes dos 25 anos, eventualmente entre 25 e 30. Além disso, há muitos casos de pessoas que produziram quase tudo que puderam antes dos 20, depois não apresentaram avanço nem acúmulo de produção (Paul Morphy, por exemplo, ou Arthur Rubin). Então a notável precocidade de Galois não indica necessariamente que ele teria produzido mais do que Gauss ou Euler, se tivesse vivido muito mais tempo. Mas mesmo que ele não alcançasse o nível de Euler, é provável que ele teria deixado um legado monumental. Faraday – assim como Edison, Leonardo e eu – não recebeu educação formal, o que pode ser interpretado como uma desvantagem, embora talvez não seja de fato. A vida acadêmica pode atrapalhar, em muitos casos, é difícil julgar com segurança. Para saber se pessoas com QI acima de determinado nível teriam vantagem ou desvantagem estudando como autodidatas, seria necessário realizar experimentos com vários pares de gêmeos com QI no intervalo desejado, em que um entre cada par de gêmeos seria forçado a seguir carreira a acadêmica e o outro forçado a não seguir. Haveria vários problemas para executar tal experimento, porque gêmeos são raros e gêmeos com QI acima de determinado nível talvez simplesmente não exista nenhum caso como exemplo, e o estudo exigiria uma amostra com pelo menos algumas dezenas. Outro problema é a questão ética, de forçar uma pessoa a frequentar a unidade e forçar outra a não frequentar. Isso é especialmente grave no caso de gêmeos monozigóticos, porque provavelmente ambos teriam preferências semelhantes, e algum deles teria que ser “sacrificado” nessa situação, forçado a fazer algo diferente do que gostaria.

Na época em que conheci as comunidades de alto QI, falava-se muito em Sidis como o maior gênio da história, um gênio injustiçado e incompreendido. Há um pouco de verdade nisso, mas também há muitos exageros e distorções. Sidis é um caso incomum e muito difícil de julgar, porque a história dele está misturada com lendas e fantasias. Meu primeiro contato com a “história” de Sidis foi por meio de um artigo de Grady Towers, em 1999, que depois ele modificou em 2000. Hoje sei que havia muitas informações incorretas naquele texto, mas na época eu acreditei no que estava lá, e cheguei a considerar a possibilidade de que Sidis realmente fosse a pessoa mais inteligente da História. Atualmente vejo Sidis como uma vítima de seus pais, um prodígio forçado com talvez 180 a 200 de QI, que poderia ter sido um bom pesquisador e levado uma vida agradável e produtiva, mas foi transformado numa atração circense. O QI 250-300 que durante anos foi atribuído a ele parece ter sido invenção de sua irmã, os 54 idiomas que se afirmava que ele falava foram reduzidos para 52, depois 40, depois 26 e atualmente parece que se considera que ele talvez falasse de fato 15 a 20 idiomas. A lenda sobre ele conseguir aprender 1 idioma em 1 dia parece ser simplesmente falsa. Ele não obteve um Ph.D. Cum Laude em Harvard aos 16 anos, mas sim um B.Sc., o que ainda é uma realização expressiva, mas não tanto. Cerca de 12% dos estudantes de Yale se graduam Cum Laude, Magna Cum Laude ou Summa Cum Laude. Em alguns anos (como 1988) essas porcentagens podem aumentar bastante, chegando a mais de 30%. Eu não sei as porcentagens em Harvard, mas suponho que não seja tão diferente. Então é de fato expressivo, mas não tão impressionante quanto seria esperado por alguém com supostos 250-300 de QI.

A tendência da irmã dele em exagerar quase tudo acaba aumentando o ceticismo sobre quais alegações sobre ele são reais. O fato é que ele não deixou um legado científico nem matemático que justifique a superavaliação que se costuma fazer sobre ele. As ideias dele sobre buracos negros foram precedidas em mais de 100 anos por Laplace e Michell, as ideias dele sobre Evolução já haviam sido mais bem desenvolvidas por Darwin e Wallace, aliás, a abordagem de Sidis é bem mais superficial que a de Darwin e Wallace, sendo mais semelhante à de Anaximandro e Aristóteles. Contudo, permanece a dúvida sobre o nível de produção intelectual que ele poderia ter alcançado se não tivesse se afastado da vida acadêmica, ou, mesmo afastado da vida acadêmica, mas produzindo Ciência e Matemática fora da universidade.

Em termos de precocidade, Gauss, Galois, Neumann e Pascal me parecem mais notáveis que Sidis, inclusive porque Gauss foi um prodígio natural, enquanto Sidis foi uma mistura de prodígio natural e prodígio forçado. Galois, Pascal, Neumann também foram prodígios naturais e forçados, mas não tão forçados quanto Sidis. Essa pressão a que Sidis foi submetido talvez o tenha prejudicado e provocado o desfecho que essa novela acabou tendo. Acho difícil avaliar.

Por isso se essa pergunta me tivesse sido feita em 2000, talvez eu fizesse uma análise menos crítica e mais superficial e apontasse Sidis como o maior gênio. Atualmente eu teria dúvidas inclusive se ele teria escore muito alto nos hrIQts, talvez ele chegasse a 190 em alguns testes, mas em outros não passaria de 180. No que diz respeito à produção intelectual, os registros não mostram nada tão extraordinário.

Jacobsen: O que diferencia um gênio de uma pessoa profundamente inteligente?

Melão Jr.: habitualmente o conceito de “gênio” é utilizado para indicar capacidade excepcional em diferentes áreas científicas, artísticas, esportivas, culturais etc. Nesse contexto, uma das principais diferenças seria o nível de especificidade, pois o gênio poderia indicar um talento notável em qualquer área de atuação (Música, Futebol, Ballet etc.), inclusive atividades nas quais não seja exigida inteligência em alto nível. Em contraste a isso, a pessoa profundamente inteligente teria seu talento ligado exclusivamente a atividades nas quais a notabilidade exija nível intelectual muito elevado (Física, Matemática, Literatura, Xadrez etc.).

Mas esse conceito é inadequado, em minha opinião, porque com o desenvolvimento de máquinas que superam os melhores humanos em diferentes modalidades, torna-se importante não misturar máquinas “inteligentes” com outras máquinas. Poderia parecer aceitável dizer que Usain Bolt é um gênio do atletismo, mas seria estranho dizer que um Bugatti Chiron é um gênio, embora o que o Chiron faz excepcionalmente seja o mesmo que Usain Bolt faz. Por isso é necessário determinar critérios objetivos de classificação que sejam aplicáveis igualmente a todas as entidades orgânicas e inorgânicas, sem discriminação, um critério que funcione bem e não produza classificações bizarras. Não seria razoável dizer “ah, Chiron é um carro, portanto critério não se aplica a ele”. Isso seria uma discriminação rasa e incorreta, porque em poucas décadas haverá carros capazes de conversar sobre Filosofia e demonstrar teoremas matemáticos, inclusive híbridos que sejam parte humanos e parte carros, e se um dos critérios para ser considerado genial for “não pode ser um carro”, haveria uma grave inconsistência. Um critério sério e justo precisa ser bem planejado, não pode ser um palpite ingênuo que não contempla as possíveis exceções.

Os talentos para modalidades intelectuais, quando atingem determinado nível de excelência (algo como 5 desvios padrão acima da média) podem ser considerados “gênios”, mas para atividades nas quais o nível intelectual não desempenha um papel importante (Boxe, Futebol, Atletismo etc.), creio que o termo correto deveria ser escolhido com mais cuidado, para evitar que máquinas não intelectuais sejam incorretamente classificadas como “gênios” (um carro veloz ser classificado como “gênio” por ser veloz me parece um erro etimológico, mas se este carro pudesse realizar tarefas intelectuais, a situação mudaria). Em algumas circunstâncias, as máquinas precisam ser reconhecidas como gênios, caso contrário haverá inconsistências graves na sintaxe do idioma, apoiadas exclusivamente em preconceito contra máquinas. AlphaZero ou MuZero, por exemplo, em minha opinião eles (especialmente MuZero) se encontram numa “zona cinza” de difícil avaliação. MuZero pode aprender sozinho a jogar Xadrez, Go, Shogui, jogos de Atari, e alcançar nível muito alto, superior ao dos melhores humanos do mundo em alguns desses jogos, que são reconhecidos como jogos intelectuais. Por isso uma tentativa de ajuste post facto nos critérios, com o único propósito de desqualificar MuZero como um gênio, isso me pareceria um sinal de discriminação injusta. Mesmo porque, as próximas gerações de MuZero tendem a apresentar cada vez melhor o que entendemos como “inteligência geral”, e em algum momento não haverá como evitar reconhecer que algumas máquinas também precisam ser classificadas como “inteligentes”.

A dúvida é se caberia melhor a MuZero a classificação de “idiot savant” ou de “gênio”. A meu ver, seria melhor “gênio”, porque idiot savants normalmente não são muito criativos e não se sobressaem em atividades que exijam resolver problemas sofisticados e profundos. São muito bons em memorizar e repetir, sejam cálculos mentais ou execuções de músicas, mas não conheço nenhum caso de idiot savant que tenha se destacado como enxadrista ou como cientista. Talvez fosse possível reformular os significados de gênio e de idiot savant de maneira que MuZero ficasse mais bem classificado como savant, sem comprometer a essência desses significados. Uma classificação adequada não poderia “empurrar” Bobby Fischer ou Kasparov para o grupo de savants, por exemplo. A classificação precisaria ser cuidadosa, para não criar inconsistências com o único objetivo de remover MuZero do grupo de gênios, nem apresentar outros tipos de arbitrariedades.

Em algumas outras atividades nas quais não há necessidade de um intelecto excepcional, sendo suficiente QI perto de 120 aliado a um talento excepcional para uma área específica, creio que o termo “gênio” não deveria ser aplicável. Mike Tyson ou Usain Bolt não precisam de muito mais que 120 de QI, e alguns veículos sem qualquer traço de inteligência, que não pensam, podem vencer Bolt na modalidade que ele se notabilizou, então a excelência nessa modalidade talvez não deva ser encarada como “genialidade”.

Em alguns casos é mais difícil avaliar se o termo “gênio” seria ou não aplicável. Sistemas de Inteligência Artificial como AIWA, que é especializada em compor músicas, e faz isso num nível muito alto, a meu ver, também não deveria ser classificado como “gênio”, e nesse caso os grandes compositores humanos também não deveriam ser classificados como “gênios” com base exclusivamente em seu talento para compor. Se esse talento para compor músicas estivesse acompanhado de um nível intelectual compatível com o critério intelectual de genialidade, então a classificação como “gênio” seria aplicável com base nisso. O mesmo valeria para lutadores de Boxe, agricultores ou profissionais de qualquer área, que não seriam classificados como “gênios” com base em seus talentos para suas atividades de maior destaque, mas sim por sua inteligência.

Nessa acepção, poderia haver gênios latentes e gênios efetivos. A genialidade latente estaria no potencial intelectual de produzir contribuições relevantes para ampliar os horizontes do conhecimento, revolucionar os paradigmas científicos, etc. Enquanto o gênio efetivo seria aquele que concretamente faz essas coisas. Uma pessoa profundamente inteligente, que não tenha realizado contribuições notáveis, poderia ser um gênio latente, tendo em aberto a constante oportunidade de se tornar um gênio efetivo, a partir do momento que utiliza seu potencial para o desenvolvimento científico, ou para inovações em matemática ou em algum campo importante do conhecimento.

Algumas pessoas consideram que a diferença fundamental entre um gênio e uma pessoa profundamente inteligente está na criatividade, mas a criatividade é um dos componentes da inteligência. As pessoas muitas vezes confundem o raciocínio lógico (que também é um dos componentes da inteligência) com a própria inteligência. Mas o comportamento inteligente é uma combinação ampla de muitos processos cognitivos, inclusive memória e criatividade.

A diferença entre “gênio” e “profundamente inteligente” é mais quantitativa e está associada às proporções em que estão presentes determinados atributos. A criatividade aparece no gênio como um elemento fundamental, mas não porque o gênio seja criativo e a pessoa profundamente inteligente não seja (ambos são), ou sequer porque o gênio seja sempre mais criativo (embora geralmente seja). No conjunto de atributos, considerando raciocínio lógico, criatividade, memória de trabalho, memória de longo prazo etc., o gênio possui e utiliza esse conjunto de traços latentes na resolução de problemas inéditos com maior eficiência. Como a criatividade geralmente é um dos quesitos mais importantes para isso, acaba sendo natural associar a genialidade à criatividade.

Jacobsen: A inteligência profunda é necessária para o gênio?

Melão Jr.: Para o conceito de gênio que descrevi, sim. Na resposta anterior acabei respondendo a essa.

Jacobsen: Quais foram algumas experiências de trabalho e empregos que você teve?

Melão Jr.: Desde 2006 trabalho no desenvolvimento de sistemas de inteligência artificial para operar no Mercado Financeiro. Atualmente estou interessado em resolver o problema de prolongar a vida indefinidamente, preservar a memória e a identidade em dispositivos inorgânicos que tenham uma interface adequada de comunicação com o cérebro, ressuscitar pessoas, restaurar corpos severamente danificados e outros problemas menores que são subconjuntos desses e pré-requisitos para esses.

Jacobsen: Por que seguir esse caminho de trabalho específico?

Melão Jr.: o desenvolvimento de sistemas automáticos para operar no Mercado Financeiro é uma atividade desafiadora intelectualmente e oferece uma recompensa monetária razoavelmente justa, embora a ausência de uma network empresarial imponha muitos obstáculos. O nível de dificuldade, complexidade e profundidade dos problemas que precisam ser resolvidos para obter lucros consistentes a longo prazo com operações long-short é extremamente elevado. Há algumas maneiras fáceis de ganhar 3% ao ano ou pouco mais, praticando Buy & Hold do índice ou de Blue Chips, em que o ganho é pequeno, mas muito fácil. Porém se a pessoa quiser lutar para obter lucros perto de 30% ao ano ou acima, o desafio é extraordinariamente difícil e poucas pessoas no mundo conseguem isso de fato. Como parte desse trabalho, fiz alguns avanços interessantes em Econometria e Gerenciamento de risco. Em 2007, solucionei um problema que havia sido resolvido de forma insatisfatória durante 22 anos, ao criar um índice para medir o desempenho ajustado ao risco que era mais acurado, mais preditivo e conceitualmente mais bem fundamentado do que os índices tradicionais de William Sharpe (prêmio Nobel 1990) e Franco Modigliani (Nobel 1985). Em 2015 mostrei que o método recomendado pelo Prêmio Nobel de Economia Harry Markowitz, para otimização de portfólio, apresenta algumas falhas, e propus algumas melhorias que tornam esse método mais eficiente e seguro. Em 2021 apontei falhas na recomendação do Prêmio Nobel de Economia de 2003, Clive Granger, quanto ao uso do conceito de cointegração, e apresentou uma solução mais adequada para o mesmo problema. Entre outras contribuições em processos de otimização de algoritmos genéticos, ranqueamento e seleção de genótipos, reconhecimento de padrões etc.

Jacobsen: Quais são alguns dos aspectos mais importantes da ideia de superdotados e gênios? Esses mitos que permeiam as culturas do mundo. Quais são esses mitos? Que verdades os dissipam?

Melão Jr.: parece haver diferentes mitos entre diferentes estratos intelectuais. Para a maior parte da população, com QI abaixo de 130, parece que pensam no gênio como uma pessoa maluca, reclusa, antissocial, fisicamente frágil, e todos os defeitos físicos e psicológicos que eles conseguem imaginar, como uma necessidade mórbida de empurrar para baixo a pessoa por não tolerarem o fato de que ela se sobressai em alguma coisa e ainda por cima ter pequena vantagem em quase tudo. Muitos filmes, livros e revistas tentam reforçar esse estereótipo. Mas há outras ideias incorretas que são disseminadas em outras faixas de QI. No nível de 130 a 180, por exemplo, parece haver uma supervalorização dos resultados em testes de QI, sem uma compreensão correta sobre os limites de até que ponto esses testes produzem escores acurados e fidedignos.

Outro mito está relacionado ao nível de raridade. Pessoas que não tenham noções de Psicometria (quase todas fora das sociedades de alto QI) acham que superdotados são muito raros, algo como 1 em 1 milhão ou até mais raros. Eles geralmente também não têm noção da diferença entre “superdotado” e “gênio”, inclusive alguns acham que superdotado é mais inteligente do que gênio.

Jacobsen: Alguma opinião sobre o conceito de Deus ou a ideia de deuses e filosofia, teologia e religião?

Melão Jr.: minha família era católica. Eu me tornei ateu aos 11 anos, depois de estudar sobre algumas religiões. Num processo de transição que durou alguns anos entre os 17 e 25 anos, acabei me tornando agnóstico. Eu cheguei a me interessar pela Fé Bahá’í aos 27 anos e aos 28 me tornei deísta e escrevi um artigo no qual apresento argumentos científicos sérios sobre a existência de Deus. Digo “argumentos sérios” porque todos os argumentos pseudocientíficos que conheço sobre o assunto são tentativas desesperadas de “provar” uma crença a priori. É diferente de uma análise imparcial que conduz a uma conclusão que não havia servido como motivação inicial. Continuo sendo deísta, cheguei a fundar minha própria religião e estou escrevendo um livro sobre o assunto.

Jacobsen: Quanto a ciência influencia na visão de mundo para você?

Melão Jr.: A Ciência é o único caminho que conhecemos por meio do qual se pode desenvolver modelos adequados para representar a realidade senciente, modelos funcionais, capazes de fazer generalizações e previsões, em que os resultados obtidos são razoavelmente conforme as previsões, sem que as previsões dependam da sorte para acertos casuais. A Ciência é imprescindível no processo de aquisição do conhecimento e desenvolvimento tecnológico. Por outro lado, é importante compreender as limitações da Ciência, como um corpo de disciplinas que nos oferece um método valioso, mas que não está imune a falhas. O grande diferencial da Ciência não está no conhecimento que ela produz, mas sim no método que permite que ela se corrija a si mesma e faça isso constantemente, atualizando-se, refinando-se, ampliando-se etc., de modo que todo o conhecimento científico, mesmo que seja fundamentalmente incorreto, tem alguma utilidade prática e funciona razoavelmente bem dentro dos limites que a Teoria da Medida estabelece. O modelo cosmológico de Ptolomeu, por exemplo, mesmo sendo fundamentalmente errado, permitia fazer previsões muito acuradas. Algumas vezes as teorias científicas podem não representar estruturalmente de forma acurada os fenômenos naturais, mas ainda que as explicações teóricas não sejam as mais corretas, elas funcionam. Os conhecimentos obtidos por outros meios, como a Filosofia, a Religião ou a cultura popular, geralmente têm menor probabilidade de “funcionar”, e mesmo quando funcionam, é difícil regular os parâmetros que determinam seu funcionamento, devido à ausência de uma teoria subjacente que esteja organizada por um modelo matemático.

Jacobsen: Quais foram alguns dos testes realizados e pontuações obtidas (com desvios padrão) para você?

Melão Jr.: não há uma resposta simples a essa pergunta. Aliás, entre todas as perguntas dessa entrevista, talvez essa seja a mais difícil, porque além de dar uma resposta correta, preciso tentar ser diplomático para não parecer muito arrogante. Minha namorada já me perguntou dezenas de vezes qual é o meu QI, Tor já me perguntou isso pelo menos 5 vezes, e eu geralmente me esquivo do assunto, porque é demorado ter que explicar tudo. Mas eu vou responder aqui e quando outras pessoas me perguntarem novamente, eu vou fornecer o link dessa resposta, inclusive porque em questões anteriores e no texto introdutório comentei um pouco sobre testes clínicos, hrIQts, estimativas e comparações. Com isso, creio que será possível expressar minha opinião sobre esse tema de forma razoavelmente completa e acurada em menos de 50 páginas, aproveitando as respostas anteriores como pré-requisitos.

Fui examinado pela primeira vez aos 3 anos de idade, e cheguei até os testes para 9 anos, porque não tinham acima de 9 anos para crianças que não sabiam ler. Eu não sei qual o nome dos testes, mas o desvio padrão provavelmente era 24. Há vários pontos complexos que precisam ser examinados sobre isso, porque a evolução da inteligência em função da idade não é linear, como na fórmula simplificada de Stern, o desvio padrão não é 24 em todas as faixas etárias abaixo de 16 anos, a maioria das crianças muito jovens examinadas são prodígios forçados que os pais tentaram ensinar muita coisa desde que nasceram, mas não foi assim no meu caso, meu pai saía para trabalhar antes de eu acordar e voltava depois que eu já estava dormindo, minha mãe trabalhava quase o dia todo, por isso nenhum deles tinha sequer tempo para ficar muito comigo, quanto menos para me treinar como um prodígio forçado. Outros pontos a considerar são que o desenvolvimento intelectual não termina aos 16 anos (nem 17 ou 18 ou 19), nem chega ao limite numa idade fixa para todas as pessoas, nem permanece estável ao chegar em determinada idade. Portanto a interpretação de que a idade mental de 9 anos aos 3 anos corresponde a um ratio IQ 300 é grosseiramente incorreta e ingênua. Mesmo depois de converter a escala com desvio padrão 24 para 16, chegando a 233, continua incorreta. A curva de evolução da inteligência em função da idade também varia de uma pessoa para outra. Por isso não é razoável tomar como base testes aplicados na infância para tentar estimar qual será o QI em idade adulta. Há vários casos de QIs medidos na infância que se mostram muito distantes dos corretos em idade adulta, embora alguns possam “acertar por sorte”, como no caso de Terrence Tao, que teve o QI medido em 230 e, por sorte, realmente o QI dele está perto disso. No meu caso, é possível que também o QI medido tenha chegado perto do valor correto “por sorte”, mas os testes utilizados, o método utilizado, etc. não são apropriados.

Outro detalhe é que eu não sei se eu continuaria resolvendo as tarefas típicas de crianças com mais de 10 anos, mas é possível que sim, porém a precocidade em resolver tarefas típicas de crianças mais velhas não diz quase nada, ou diz muito pouco, sobre o nível intelectual que será alcançado em idade adulta, porque as habilidades medidas não fornecem informações úteis para esse tipo de prognóstico. O tipo de habilidade que indicaria um nível intelectual muito alto (200+) em idade adulta não tem relação com o mesmo tipo de tarefa que uma criança de 8, 9 ou 10 anos, ou mesmo 20 anos, poderia realizar, mas sim com a solução de problemas que indicassem traços de criatividade e pensamento profundo para aquela idade. O evento na aula de Geografia aos 9 anos, por exemplo, foi um indicativo muito mais relevante do que o resultado do teste aos 3 anos, não apenas porque aos 9 anos já havia alcançado maior maturidade e estava mais perto do potencial que teria quando adulto, mas também, e principalmente, porque o tipo de problema envolvido estava mais estreitamente relacionado aos processos cognitivos necessários a adultos geniais.

Conforme comentei no texto introdutório, em outras respostas, em alguns artigos e em alguns fóruns, os testes de QI e os hrIQts apresentam problemas na validade de constructo, erros no cálculo da norma e inadequação do nível de dificuldade. Eu já tive uma experiência muito ruim com Paul Cooijmans em 2001 e eu não pretendo voltar a perder tempo com isso. O Space, Time & Hyperspace (STH) de Cooijmans propunha medir o QI até 207 (σ=16), embora a dificuldade real das questões mais difíceis desse teste não seja muito maior que 170. Mas isso não é o principal problema. O STH contém vários erros primários que invalidam completamente o teste e a norma, embora muitas pessoas o considerem um dos “melhores” hrIQts. Em 2001 escrevi para Cooijmans sobre isso e apontei a ele um desses erros, mas ele se recusou a conversar a respeito disso e não admitiu o erro dele. Eu não tenho paciência para lidar com pessoas que agem como ele. Vou descrever exatamente qual o problema usando um exemplo:

O enunciado geral para todas as questões do STH era a seguinte:

a : b :: c : d

Significando: “a” está para “b” assim como “c” está para “d”.

Dados “a, b, c” determine “d”.

O enunciado, juntamente com o teste, podem ser acessados em https://web.archive.org/web/20040812113534/http://www.gliasociety.org/

Segue um print do que está no link acima:

O enunciado geral diz que há uma relação da 1ª figura para a 2ª figura que deve ser descoberta e, em seguida, essa mesma relação deve ser aplicada na 3ª figura para produzir a 4ª figura. Esse é o único enunciado geral para todas as questões desse teste, apresentado no início do teste, e funciona assim nas questões 1 até 9, mas não é assim na questão 10 nem em 16 outras questões entre as 28 que constituem esse teste.

Ele queria que na questão 10 fosse descoberta a relação da 1ª figura para a 3ª figura e, em seguida, essa mesma relação fosse aplicada na 2ª figura para produzir a 4ª figura! Mas em nenhum momento ele pediu isso no enunciado. O que o enunciado pede é exatamente o que descrevi acima. Se a pessoa responde exatamente o que o enunciado está pedindo, a pessoa perde 1 ponto!

Há várias outras questões no STH com esse mesmo erro básico de lógica. Nessa situação surreal, se a pessoa acertar todas as 28 questões exatamente em conformidade com o que pede o enunciado do teste, a pessoa receberá apenas 11 certos e terá escore 135 em vez de 205 pela norma atual, ou 140 em vez de 207 pela norma antiga.

Como Cooijmans não aceitou conversar a respeito disso, eu conversei (na época) com 3 outras pessoas capacitadas para opinar: Petri Widsten, Albert Frank e Guilherme Marques dos Santos Silva.

Petri Widsten teve o escore mais alto no Sigma Test, no STH e foi campeão em vários concursos de lógica e de QI, inclusive http://www.worldiqchallenge.com/rankings.html, onde Petri teve quase o dobro do escore bruto de Rick Rosner. Petri rapidamente concordou comigo sobre isso, inclusive com prejuízo para as próprias respostas dele, porque ele havia respondido o que ele achava que o Cooijmans gostaria de receber como resposta, não o que seria a resposta mais certa. Todas as vezes que me lembro desse assunto, fico estressado, porque Cooijmans é uma pessoa muito teimosa. Eu não acho que Cooijmans seja estúpido ou desonesto; eu acho que ele é inteligente e ele tenta fazer o que ele acredita ser certo, mas a teimosia dele é maior do que a inteligência dele.

Albert Frank foi professor de Lógica e Matemática na Universidade de Bruxelas, campeão veterano de Xadrez na Bélgica. Albert também concordou comigo e fez alguns comentários sobre Lógica formal que categorizam o tipo de erro cometido pelo Cooijmans.

Guilherme Marques dos Santos Silva é membro de Sigma V e foi campeão no concurso de QI “Ludomind International Contest IV”, também concordou comigo e “desistiu” de terminar de fazer o STH depois que viu esse erro absurdo. Ele disse que faltavam poucas questões para terminar, mas devido ao grave viés na correção, não teve interesse em prosseguir.

Além das pessoas com as quais conversei naquela época, também conversei recentemente com Tianxi Yu sobre esse tipo de problema. Yu tem escore 196, σ=15 no Death Numbers, que é considerado um teste sério e com norma desinflada. Ele comentou que já encontrou erros em vários testes, e ele postou uma extensa e detalhada crítica pública sobre isso em um grupo, citando os diversos tipos de erros que o incomodam. Há vários pontos nos quais discordo das opiniões de Yu, mas em relação aos testes, nossas opiniões são muito semelhantes.

Logo que tomei meu primeiro contato com as sociedades de alto QI e conheci o site do Miyaguchi (1999), cheguei a me interessar em fazer o Power Test, que eu considero um dos melhores em termos de validade de constructo e com nível adequado de dificuldade. Na época eu tinha 27 anos e uma opinião diferente da atual, eu tinha três objetivos com o Power Test: um deles era a diversão, outro era bater o recorde de Rick Rosner de QI~193 e o terceiro era entrar em Mega Society. Naquela época era utilizada a norma calculada por Garth Zietsman para o Power Test, com teto 197, mas antes de eu terminar de resolver todas as questões, o Power Test deixou de ser aceito em Mega Society e o teto foi “revisado” para 180. Então eu perdi completamente o interesse.

Garth Zietsman é um estatístico competente e a norma que ele calculou, provavelmente utilizando Teoria de Resposta ao Item, é consistente e muito bem fundamentada. Se os mesmos itens utilizados no Mega, Titan e Ultra estavam no Power, então as dificuldades individuais desses itens foram mantidas e determinavam a norma do Power. Por isso quando o teto do Power Test foi modificado para 180, isso foi um erro. Simplesmente foram desconsideradas as mais de 4.000 aplicações do Meta, Titan e Ultra, que serviram de base para a norma calculado por Zietsman, e foi calculada uma nova norma baseada em poucas dezenas de pessoas. O procedimento correto seria somar os novos dados (sobre os resultados de cada item respondido pelas pessoas examinadas com o Power) ao banco de itens que continha as questões do Mega, Titan e Ultra, calibrar novamente os parâmetros de dificuldade, poder discriminante e acerto casual (se aplicável) de cada item, então revisar as normas dos 4 testes de Hoeflin que compartilhavam aqueles itens. Assim os níveis de dificuldade seriam preservados igualmente em todos os testes, mantendo uma escala unificada.

Mas da maneira como foi feito, a norma do Power ficou distorcida para baixo em relação aos outros três testes de Hoeflin. Para esclarecer melhor o problema, vou citar um exemplo: no Power Test a questão sobre a fita de Moebius está sendo tratada estatisticamente como se tivesse parâmetro b = +2.81, ou seja, 50% das pessoas com QI 145 (σ=16) devem acertar essa questão. Entretanto, a mesma questão sobre a fita de Moebius ao ser aplicada em outro dos testes de Hoeflin está sendo tratada estatisticamente como se tivesse parâmetro b = 3,88 ou seja, 50% das pessoas com QI 162 (σ=16) devem acertar essa questão. Isso é uma inconsistência grave, porque ou a questão tem dificuldade 2,81 em todos os testes nos quais ela é utilizada, ou 3,88 em todos os testes. A questão não pode ter dificuldade 3,88 em alguns testes e 2,81 em outros. A normatização de Zietsman é consistente nesse aspecto, de modo que o teto do Power produz uma norma na mesma escala em que estão as normas do Mega, Titan e Ultra.

Um dos motivos que provocou essa redução no teto do Power é porque algumas pessoas já haviam levado um ou mais dos outros testes de Hoeflin nos quais os itens do Power estavam presentes, por isso a probabilidade de acertar esses itens na segunda tentativa era maior, aumentando ainda mais na terceira e quarta tentativas. Mas a maneira correta de lidar com isso seria ajustando todas as normas de todos os testes que continham aqueles itens, em função do número de vezes que aqueles itens já haviam sido resolvidos pela pessoa examinada, com normas personalizadas para cada pessoa, ou com base em quantos e quais dos três outros testes a pessoa já havia resolvido (uma equação para isso poderia ser facilmente determinada com o uso de análise de clusters, por exemplo).

Também poderia simplesmente verificar os escores de pessoas que haviam feito mais de um teste (ou o mesmo teste mais de uma vez) e o efeito disso sobre a probabilidade de acertar cada item repetido no segundo, terceiro ou quarto teste que continha o mesmo item. Embora esse ajuste global no conjunto de itens não fosse tão acurado e refinado quanto a análise desse efeito sobre cada item individual, como sugeri acima, isso já ajudaria a aprimorar as normas em todos os 4 testes, em vez de distorcer a norma do Power em relação a todos os outros.

Enfim, há uma quantidade preocupante de erros nos hrIQts, tanto nos cálculos das normas quanto nas respostas aceitas como corretas, entre outros problemas. Por isso o Sigma Test sempre adotou uma política de transparência, sendo aberto a debates, se a pessoa tivesse algum escore acima de 180 em qualquer teste e ela acreditasse que alguma resposta dela estava certa e ela achasse que recebeu uma avaliação incorreta, ela podia contestar a correção de uma questão que ela escolhesse. Se ela tivesse razão, ela podia contestar a correção de mais uma questão, e assim por diante, até que a contestação dela fosse improcedente. O Moon Test e o Sigma Test Extended adotam uma política semelhante de transparência, mas o escore mínimo em outros testes para ter esse direito a contestação é 190 tanto no Moon Test quanto no Sigma Test Extended. Isso permite revisar eventuais erros, além de permitir que a pessoa examinada tenha a oportunidade de defender o que ela considera certo, na hipótese de ela achar que merecia mais pontos do que recebeu. Em minha opinião, todos os testes deveriam adotar uma política semelhante.

Se houvesse algum teste com características apropriadas, eu consideraria a possibilidade de fazer outro teste, embora eu esteja mais velho e mais burro. Basicamente deveria ser um teste com boa validade de constructo nos níveis mais altos, teto apropriado e dificuldade apropriada. Além disso, deveria ter um sistema formal de “reclamação” que permitisse contestar o resultado. Sem isso, não vejo razão para perder tempo com essas coisas. Um hrIQt pode facilmente consumir 50 horas e se for um teste realmente difícil, com nível adequado de dificuldade, pode consumir mais de 500 horas. É um tempo que poderia ser aplicado em atividades mais interessantes e produtivas. Por isso, a menos que o teste reúna uma série de virtudes notáveis que justifiquem o esforço, eu não teria interesse. Na verdade, há um teste que, na minha opinião, atende a esses quesitos, mas eu não posso resolver porque eu sou o autor. Isso me faz lembrar de um assunto que foi discutido há poucas semanas num grupo:

Na verdade, alguns problemas que eu já resolvi são mais difíceis que os problemas mais difíceis do Sigma Test Extented. Então há algumas pistas úteis nisso.

Algumas pessoas já fizeram estimativas de meu QI e já fizeram algumas comparações. Em 2004, o fundador de Pars Society (QI>180), Baran Yonter, estimou meu QI em mais de 200 (σ=16, G), isso é equivalente a mais de 240 pIQ (σ=16, T). Achei que ele estivesse sendo gentil, mas em 2005, quando fui indicado para a produção do programa de TV “Fantástico”, da rede Globo, como a pessoa mais inteligente do Brasil, descobri que outras pessoas tinham opiniões semelhantes à de Baran sobre mim. Eu me senti lisonjeado com as indicações, mas eu não sei se realmente sou a pessoa mais inteligente do Brasil e eu disse isso ao jornalista, mas ele insistiu, e como eu havia sido o mais indicado, e também por uma questão de vaidade, acabei aceitando fazer a matéria, cujo vídeo está disponível em minha página e meu canal.

É necessário fazer uma ressalva importante em relação à correta determinação da pessoa mais inteligente do Brasil, porque há um brasileiro que ganhou uma medalha Fields (Artur Ávila) e há um brasileiro que prestou contribuições fundamentais ao desenvolvimento das lógicas paraconsistentes (Newton da Costa), ambos são pessoas muito inteligentes, mas com perfis diferentes do meu, por isso seria difícil fazer uma comparação adequada para saber com segurança quem é o mais inteligente do Brasil, porque cada um deles é profundamente especializado em uma área muito específica, enquanto meus talentos e realizações se distribuem por uma grande variedade de áreas diferentes. Como resultado da maior especialização, o nível de profundidade que eles alcançaram é maior, mas essa maior profundidade não reflete uma maior profundidade de raciocínio, e sim maior profundidade de conhecimento. Além disso, eu só estudei até o 11º ano, enquanto eles fizeram doutorado e pós-doutorados com excelentes orientadores, o que me coloca numa situação de “correr com as pernas amarradas” em comparação a pessoas que correm montadas em cavalos. As pessoas que trabalharam nos mesmos problemas nos quais eu trabalhei estavam equipadas com ferramentas matemáticas mais sofisticadas, acesso a computadores muito mais potentes, acesso a vasta bibliografia de alta qualidade, receberam treinamento formal muito mais prolongado, intensivo e sob orientação de cientistas experientes, enquanto todo o meu “treinamento” foi auto-administrado, praticamente sem recursos bibliográficos e com modestos recursos computacionais. Muitas vezes precisei criar minhas próprias ferramentas estatísticas antes de usá-las na resolução dos problemas, e depois eu descobria que já existiam ferramentas prontas para as mesmas finalidades. Durante o desenvolvimento de meu sistema para operar no Mercado Financeiro, situações como essa se repetiram muitas vezes.

Um detalhe que é importante esclarecer: eu comentei (no apêndice) que a qualidade média do ensino no Brasil é péssima, então qual seria minha desvantagem por não ter frequentado esse ambiente péssimo? E a resposta é simples: muitos dos melhores acadêmicos brasileiros vão estudar nos melhores centros de pesquisa e universidades da Europa, dos EUA, Canadá, Austrália, Japão etc. Além disso, há alguns poucos pesquisadores realmente bons no Brasil, e quando um jovem talento recebe orientação de um pesquisador de primeira magnitude, isso faz uma diferença muito grande. Portanto há uma vantagem substancial nas oportunidades de Artur e Newton da Costa se comparados com a minha situação, porque eles tiveram acesso a muito mais recursos, além das vantagens em orientação e treinamento.

Em relação às outras pessoas que trabalharam nos mesmos problemas que eu, e eu resolvi esses problemas antes delas ou melhor do que elas ou as duas coisas, quase todos são de outros países: Nick Trefethen é Chefe do Dep. de Cálculo Numérico na Universidade de Oxford e coleciona alguns prêmios internacionais de Matemática (Leslie Fox Prize 1985, FRS Prize 2005, IMA Gold Medal 2010), Susumu Tachi é Professor Emérito na Universidade de Tóquio e Professor Convidado no MIT, Stefan Steinerberger é professor de Matemática em Yale, William Sharpe é professore na Universidade da Califórnia e Nobel de Economia em 1990, Franco Modigliani é Professor na Universidade de Roma e Nobel de Economia em 1985, Clive Granger foi professor na Universidade de Nottingham e Nobel de Economia em 2003, entre outros. Então as pessoas que trabalharam em alguns dos problemas que eu resolvi constituem uma “concorrência de peso”, além de eles terem acesso a mais recursos, mais assessores etc., portanto acho que eu ter realizado trabalhos melhores que os deles, ou ter solucionado problemas relevantes antes deles, talvez represente algum mérito para mim, eu não tenho falsa modéstia em admitir isso.

O fato é que a determinação correta da pessoa mais inteligente de um país não é algo tão simples, não é um jogo de egos e vaidades. É necessário que haja embasamento real para isso. Por exemplo, eu acho que Petri Widsten tem excelentes chances de ser a pessoa mais inteligente da Finlândia, não apenas pelo excelente resultado dele no Sigma Test, mas também porque a tese dele de doutorado, além de muito inovadora, foi premiada como a melhor tese do país no biênio 2002-2003 e ele venceu vários concursos de lógica. O conjunto desses resultados, e outros detalhes menores, como ele ser fluente em mais de 10 idiomas, sugerem um nível intelectual real com raridade acima de 1 em 5 milhões, que é a população da Finlândia. Entretanto há outras pessoas muito inteligentes na Finlândia, como Rauno Lindström ou Bengt Holmström. Embora a Finlândia seja um país culturalmente mais homogêneo, de modo que não há uma diferença de oportunidades tão grande quanto no meu caso, ainda assim a comparação ainda é difícil, por isso não seria prudente afirmar categoricamente que determinada pessoa (Petri ou Rauno ou outro) é a mais inteligente da Finlândia. O mais apropriado seria atribuir uma probabilidade a cada um. Petri teria em torno de 95% de probabilidade de ser a pessoa mais inteligente da Finlândia, Talvez Rauno 2%, Bengt 1% e alguém entre as outras pessoas 5 milhões de pessoas 2%. No caso do Brasil, minha vantagem seria bem menor que a do Petri em relação aos outros fortes candidatos.

Em 2005, o amigo Alexandre Prata Maluf, membro de Sigma V, Pars Society e OlympIQ Society, estimou que meu QI deveria ser semelhante ou pouco acima do da Marilyn Vos Savant. Creio que a intenção dele foi fazer um elogio, porque a Marilyn é um ícone nas sociedades de alto QI, mas não gostei da comparação, porque não é uma comparação justa. Os problemas do mundo real que eu já resolvi são muito mais difíceis do que os problemas que ela resolveu. Não excluo a possibilidade de que ela talvez tenha um QI similar ao meu, mas ela precisaria provar isso com resultados concretos, solucionando problemas com grau de dificuldade compatível.

Recentemente, tomei conhecimento de que em 2018, num grupo privado, meu nome havia sido indicado numa postagem com título “Name the top 5 people (alive) with the highest measured IQs in the world today! Name, IQ and Test.” Achei surpreendente eu ter sido citado, porque desde 2006 eu estava afastado das sociedades de alto QI e só retornei há poucos meses, em fevereiro de 2022, mesmo assim Rasmus Waldna, da Suécia, muito gentilmente se lembrou de mim e sugeriu meu nome, e a indicação dele recebeu mais curtidas do que receberam os nomes de Terence Tao, Chris Hirata, Rick Rosner, Marilyn e Langan. Também foram indicados os nomes dos amigos Tor e Iakovos. Compreendo que foi um tópico informal, e as reações positivas das pessoas podem ter sido influenciadas por fatores extrínsecos à capacidade intelectual, algumas pessoas podem ter curtido por simpatia, por exemplo, ou porque gostam do meu cabelo, mas mesmo assim fiquei feliz com a lembrança e o reconhecimento, e feliz também por ver alguns amigos nessa lista.

Em 2001, David Spencer me comparou a Leonardo Da Vinci e Pascal. Em 2016 o amigo João Antonio L.J. me comparou a Newton e Galileu, e a maneira como ele escreveu e no contexto em que foi dito, achei um elogio comovente e sincero. Em 2017, novamente fui comparado a Leonardo (por Aurius). Em 2020, a revista Empiricus publicou um artigo de Bruno Mérola sobre gerenciamento de risco, no qual o autor comparou meu Melao Index com o índice de Sharpe (Nobel de 1990), e na análise que ele fez, apresentou fatos e argumentos demonstrando que meu índice é superior ao índice de Sharpe. Na verdade, meu índice também é superior ao de Modigliani (Nobel de 1985), Sortino e todos os outros, mas no artigo ele só mencionou o índice de Sharpe por ser o mais utilizado no mundo, por ser mais tradicional e mais conhecido, e citou o meu por ser o mais eficiente. Em 2021 fui comparado a Feynman e novamente a Leonardo, numa situação interessante, em que a pessoa (Francisco) fez uma análise razoavelmente detalhada da comparação para justificar sua opinião. Em 2021, novamente fui citado como possivelmente a pessoa mais inteligente do brasil por Luca Fujii, um dos maiores talentos precoces da Matemática brasileira, mas como ele ainda é muito jovem, não chegou a manifestar todo o seu brilho intelectual e por isso ainda não é tão famoso, mas será em breve. O Luca é uma pessoa com muitas virtudes morais, além de intelectuais, assim como o João Antonio L.J., por isso me sinto realmente honrado que essas pessoas tenham opiniões elevadas a meu respeito, e também porque sei que não dizem isso só para me agradar, mas sim baseados em critérios profundos, critérios muito bem fundamentados e bem ponderados. O João leu mais de 1000 de meus artigos, o Luca leu meus dois livros e seguramente leu centenas de meus artigos. Portanto, além de serem excepcionalmente capacitados, também tinham conhecimento sobre o que estavam falando.

Enfim, acho que os problemas do mundo real que resolvi, as pessoas que tentaram resolver os mesmos problemas e os prêmios que essas pessoas já ganharam e outros problemas que elas já resolveram, as opiniões de alguns expoentes das sociedades de alto QI a meu respeito talvez respondam um pouco sobre meu QI, certamente mais e melhor do que um teste padronizado poderia dizer.

Jacobsen: Que filosofia ética faz algum sentido, mesmo o sentido mais viável para você?

Melão Jr.: Não conheço nenhum autor que represente minhas opiniões sobre qualquer assunto de forma suficientemente acurada e completa. Sempre há detalhes nos quais ocorrem divergências. Em meu livro sobre a existência de Deus, um dos capítulos trata de Ética, no qual exponho minhas opiniões sobre isso. Há alguns artigos nos quais discuto questões relacionadas à Ética, esse é um deles: https://www.saturnov.org/liberdadeedireitos

Jacobsen: Que filosofia política faz algum sentido, até mesmo o sentido mais viável para você?

Melão Jr.: há um provérbio polonês que diz “No capitalismo o homem trai o homem. No socialismo ocorre o contrário”. Em teoria, quase todos os sistemas políticos tentam ser razoavelmente bons, com diferentes prioridades, mas cada um visando, a seu próprio modo, objetivos nobres e elevados, embora utópicos e superficiais em pontos básicos, por isso ao serem instaurados na prática, fica claro que as vicissitudes humanas corrompem qualquer sistema, porque os sistemas teóricos não fazem previsões adequadas sobre como lidar com humanos reais. Creio que num futuro não muito distante, se não nos destruirmos por uma guerra, a liderança política do planeta estará “nas mãos” de máquinas inteligentes, e haverá um sistema muito mais lógico e justo do que qualquer sistema existente atualmente. Estará longe de ser um sistema perfeito, mas será muitíssimo superior a qualquer coisa que conhecemos, pois esses sistemas serão capazes de analisar interações muito mais complexas e profundas das relações humanas entre grandes grupos e como essas relações evoluem a longo prazo, aproximadamente do mesmo modo que os melhores programas de Xadrez superam por larga margem a qualidade de análise dos humanos, “enxergando” de forma muito mais correta e mais profunda e fazendo previsões mais acuradas do que qualquer humano. O problema é que existe um risco elevado de que sejamos escravizados pelas máquinas, ou algo assim, ou haja uma união simbiótica entre humanos máquinas, ou parasitária, é difícil prever, vai depender de algumas decisões que tomarmos nos próximos anos e décadas.

Jacobsen: Que metafísica faz algum sentido para você, mesmo o sentido mais viável para você?

Melão Jr.: a teoria do multiverso está no limiar entre a Física e a Metafísica. A palavra “multiverso” é uma construção inadequada, mas o significado é plausível e até mesmo provável.

Jacobsen: Que sistema filosófico abrangente de visão de mundo faz algum sentido, mesmo o sentido mais viável para você?

Melão Jr.: o que eu descrevo no livro que citei acima, no qual apresento argumentos que me parecem conclusivos sobre a existência de Deus, e abordo outros temas filosóficos e científicos.

Jacobsen: O que dá sentido à vida para você?

Melão Jr.: não acho que haja necessidade de haver algo que dê sentido à vida além dela mesma. A vida tem um sentido intrínseco. Mas posso afirmar que proteger minha mãe e proporcionar o melhor possível a ela era algo que me dava alegria. Ela faleceu em 2016. Fiquei sem me alimentar adequadamente e sem dormir adequadamente durante alguns meses. Eu já havia pesquisado sobre criogenia e sabia que essa tecnologia não oferece perspectivas realistas de trazer a pessoa de volta à vida, porque as membranas de trilhões de células são rompidas com o choque térmico, deixando o citoplasma vazar, um processo com baixa probabilidade de ser revertido. Comecei a pensar numa forma de ressuscitá-la, mas acho muito difícil que a pessoa ressuscitada pudesse ter restaurada exatamente a mesma personalidade e mesmas memórias, portanto não seria a mesma pessoa. Se as memórias e a personalidade dela tivessem sido armazenadas integralmente em um HDD ou SSD, ou algum dispositivo com propriedades similares, então talvez fosse possível restaurar a mesma pessoa, num genuíno processo de ressuscitação. A alegria de viver se foi com a morte dela. Em 2018, conheci minha namorada, Tamara, que está morando comigo desde então e posso dizer que ela tem sido minha alegria de viver, minha vida seria muito pequena e descolorida se não fosse por ela. É uma honra para a espécie humana que existam pessoas profundamente empenhadas em fazer o que é certo e justo, como ela, que elevam a dignidade humana a um patamar próximo da perfeição.

Jacobsen: O significado é derivado externamente, gerado internamente, ambos, ou algo mais?

Melão Jr.: em dedução o significado é atribuído, em última instância, arbitrariamente. A pessoa determina o que é um triângulo e aquilo será um triângulo. Em indução finita, o significado é inferido a partir da análise da amplitude de variação das propriedades observadas em entidades de mesma classe em comparação à dispersão das mesmas propriedades observadas em entidades de classes diferentes.

A evolução no conceito de “planeta”, por exemplo, ilustra bem como isso acontece. Os gregos classificavam a Lua, o Sol, Mercúrio, Vênus, Marte, Júpiter e Saturno como planetas. Nem todos os gregos, na verdade. Aristarco, Seleuco, Ecfanto (supondo que Ecfanto tenha de fato existido) e Filolau não adotavam o mesmo critério. Com Copérnico, o Sol deixava de ser considerado um planeta, enquanto a Terra passava a ser classificada como planeta, porque o critério dos gregos era que os planetas se moviam. Quando foi descoberto Urano, em 1781, também passou a ser classificado como planeta, porque suas propriedades gerais se ajustavam melhor a essa classe de objetos, e o mesmo aconteceu quando foi descoberto Ceres, em 1801. Porém, pouco depois, foram descobertos Palas, Vesta, Juno e outros objetos com órbitas muito semelhantes às de Ceres, todos muito menores que os demais planetas e compartilhando quase mesma órbita. Em poucos anos havia mais de 10 objetos com essas características, o que levou a reconsiderar se os critérios utilizados para classificar os planetas eram apropriados. Então surgiu o conceito de “planetoide” depois modificado para “asteroide” para incluir essa classe de objetos. Na época em que Plutão (1930) foi descoberto, como ele estava muito fora da zona de asteroides e seu tamanho foi originalmente estimado como sendo semelhante ao da Terra, foi classificado como planeta. Em poucos anos se verificou que ele era muito menor do que se pensava. As primeiras estimativas de 1931 atribuíam a Plutão 13.100 km de diâmetro, depois 6084,8 km, depois 5760 km, depois 3000 km, 2700 km, 2548 km, 2300 km, 2390 km e os dados mais recentes indicam cerca de 2376,6 km. Por isso, na época em que foi descoberto, era plausível que fosse classificado como “planeta”, mas ao constatar que era muito menor e menos massivo, a situação mudou. Essa questão é analisada com mais detalhes em meu livro sobre esse tema. Quando foram descobertos outros objetos transnetunianos, já se começou a considerar que talvez Plutão ficasse mais bem classificado como um daqueles objetos, em vez de ser considerado um planeta. Os planetas telúricos (Mercúrio, Vênus, Terra e Marte) tinham superfície rochosa, densidade média aproximadamente entre 4 e 5,5 vezes a da água, diâmetro aproximadamente entre 5.000 e 13.000 km, enquanto planetas jovianos (Júpiter, Saturno, Urano, Netuno) tinham “superfície” fluida, densidade média aproximadamente entre 0,7 e 1,7 vezes a da água, diâmetro aproximadamente entre 50.000 e 140.000 km. Mas Plutão ficava muito fora desses dois grupos, sua densidade 1,9 era semelhante à dos jovianos, mas seu tamanho era menor que o dos telúricos. Não se sabia se a superfície era rochosa, mas em princípio se acreditava que sim. Quando foi descoberto Éris – cuja massa é similar à de Plutão e talvez um pouco maior –, finalmente decidiram promover um debate sobre isso e reconsiderar os critérios para classificação de planetas. Em 2006, a UAI decidiu criar uma nova classe de objetos, os “planetas anões”, e Plutão entrou para essa categoria.

Eu pulei alguns eventos importantes, como a descoberta de Galileu e Simons dos 4 grandes satélites de Júpiter, que foram inicialmente considerados “planetas”, porque não existia o conceito de “satélite” até que Kepler sugeriu isso. Algumas vezes, Galileu se referia a esses objetos como “pequenas estrelas”, já que não se sabia muito bem o que eram as estrelas, embora Giordano Bruno já tivesse um palpite promissor.

O significado de “planeta” foi e continua sendo determinado pela comparação com outros objetos que apresentem diferentes níveis de similaridade. Em casos nos quais há grande números de objetos para comparar, como a taxonomia de animais, pode-se fazer as classificações em muitos níveis hierárquicos, com diferentes níveis de similaridade, e os significados são atribuídos de acordo com as propriedades comuns a todos os elementos da mesma classe, ao mesmo tempo em que se tenta selecionar critérios que permitam distinguir de elementos de outras classes. Nas classificações de cachorros e gatos, por exemplo, não é útil considerar o fato de terem 2 olhos, rabo e focinho, porque isso não ajuda a distinguir uma espécie da outra. Tamanho médio poderia ajudar, se a dispersão nos tamanhos fosse mais estreita, mas como as diferentes raças de cachorro variam numa amplitude muito grande, esse critério também não ajudaria muito. Nesses casos, critérios mais sutis e específicos, como morfologia do rosto, morfologia dos dentes e número de dentes acabam sendo mais úteis. O tamanho do focinho pode ajudar, mas o número de dentes tem significado semelhante, por estar relacionado ao tamanho do focinho, com a vantagem de ser mais objetivo e quantitativo.

Enfim, essas são as duas principais maneiras de determinar os significados. Uma é arbitrária, permite que se imponha quais características a entidade deve ter. A outra tenta descobrir quais característicos são comuns a todas as entidades de uma mesma classe e, ao mesmo tempo, são diferentes das características de entidades de classes semelhantes, de modo a possibilitar a distinção entre entidades de uma classe ou de outra. Esses significados são frequentemente incompletos, incertos e sujeitos a revisões, conforme se faz novas descobertas sobre outras entidades cujas características sejam limítrofes em determinada classe, levando a ampliar, estreitar ou reconfigurar os critérios de modo a incluir ou excluir a nova entidade em uma das classes conhecidas, ou, mais raramente, criar uma nova classe inaugurada por essa entidade.

Jacobsen: Você acredita em vida após a morte? Se sim, por que e de que forma? Se não, por que não?

Melão Jr.: o conceito de “morte” é um desligamento, que por enquanto não sabemos como religar, mas brevemente será possível de diferentes maneiras. Esse é um dos tópicos analisados mais detalhadamente em meu livro. O conceito de “alma” também precisa ser examinado com detalhes, para responder a isso, e o tamanho da resposta seria imensa.

Jacobsen: O que você acha do mistério e da transitoriedade da vida?

Melão Jr.: não acho que seja transitória. Por enquanto tem sido, mas isso deve mudar em breve.

Jacobsen: O que é amor para você?

Melão Jr.: é uma tentativa desesperada de inventar uma palavra para representar um sentimento indescritível.

Apêndice:

Sistema Educacional no Brasil e estudo de Richard Lynn sobre QIs em diferentes países.

O sistema educacional costuma ser ruim no mundo inteiro, mas no Brasil é muito pior do que a média de países com PIB similar ao nosso. Estimo que a educação brasileira seja uma das piores do mundo. O Professor Emérito da Universidade de Ulster Richard Lynn oferece uma explicação simplista para isso em seu artigo “QI e riqueza das nações”. Ele não trata da Educação. Trata da Economia, mas o argumento que ele utiliza para justificar as diferenças de renda seria igualmente (e melhor) aplicado à Educação, desde que o argumento fosse válido. Mas o argumento parte de uma premissa falsa. Há muitos erros no trabalho de Lynn. A ideia central que ele defende está certa, mas quantitativamente ele força resultados exagerados. A tese que ele defende – de que existem diferenças étnicas e regionais – está certa, mas as diferenças não são tão grandes quanto ele quer fazer parecer. De acordo com Lynn, o QI médio em Guiné Equatorial é 56. Se isso estivesse certo, seria esperado que o país fosse uma grande tribo de nômades, eles não teriam dominado a técnica de produzir fogo, não teriam construído arados, lanças etc. Mas existe uma civilização urbana lá. Além disso, pessoas com QI abaixo de 60 têm muita dificuldade para aprender a ler e escrever, mesmo vivendo em países com ampla infraestrutura e incentivo à alfabetização. Se mais de 91% da população de Guiné Equatorial sabe ler (supondo que essa informação não seja maquiada), mesmo num ambiente com menor incentivo ao aprendizado, seria muito difícil explicar como essa população com QI médio 56 é predominantemente alfabetizada. Lynn tenta disseminar as crenças neonazistas dele e usa essas pesquisas científicas para tentar ganhar credibilidade para suas opiniões. O QI médio dos judeus Ashkenazi é cerca de 114, a média mais alta do mundo, mas Lynn conseguiu manipular os dados de sua meta-análise para que o QI médio do estado de Israel ficasse em 94.

No caso do Brasil, os resultados de Lynn indicavam QI médio 87 e em revisão mais recente indicam 83,38. Se isso estivesse certo, seria uma boa explicação para baixa qualidade da produção científica brasileira e a péssima qualidade de ensino. Mas os problemas reais que predominam no Brasil são uma combinação de preguiça dos alunos, preguiça dos professores, nivelamento por baixo nas aulas e péssimo metodologia “pedagógica”.

Uma análise mais séria da situação mostra que o QI real médio do brasileiro não é tão baixo quanto os estudos de Lynn sugerem. Muitas pessoas entregam os questionários dos testes de QI sem responder, ou “chutam” todas as alternativas, ou respondem algumas e “chutam” as demais.

Em uma postagem minha no perfil de nosso amigo Iakovos Koukas, fiz um comentário razoavelmente detalhado sobre isso, o qual também reproduzi no grupo IQ Olympiad e reproduzo novamente a aqui:

Realmente existem diferenças cognitivas em função da etnia, assim como existem em relação à altura média, tamanho médio do pênis, concentração média de melanina sob a pele etc., mas as diferenças cognitivas são muito menores do que ele tenta “vender”.

De um lado, existe o problema do igualismo ingênuo, defendido por alguns grupos pseudoideológicos, e isso não encontra nenhum respaldo nos fatos. No extremo oposto, existem os grupos de pessoas como Richard Lynn, Tatu Vanhanen e Charles Murray que tentam exacerbar as diferenças raciais e usá-las para justificar a situação de miséria de alguns povos. Tanto o grupo dos eugenistas radicais quanto o dos igualistaristas radicais estão errados, mas entre um extremo e outro existem algumas verdades.

Assim como há diferenças cognitivas marcantes entre espécies, há diferenças entre etnias, porém menos marcantes porque a amplitude de variação genética dentro de uma mesma espécie é menor. Fingir que essas diferenças não existem é um erro, porque o conhecimento correto sobre as particularidades de cada etnia ajuda a fazer diagnósticos mais acurados de diversas doenças cujos sintomas não são os mesmos em todos grupos étnicos, o tempo adequado de exposição ao Sol para a síntese de vitamina D não é o mesmo, e muitas características que seriam interpretadas como “saudáveis” em algumas etnias não são em outras, por isso o uso correto dessas informações ajuda a interpretar com mais eficácia os resultados de hemogramas, analisar anomalias ósseas, dermatológicas e musculares. Conhecer as diferenças fisiológicas, cognitivas e comportamentais de cada etnia é importante; o problema está em usar essas diferenças com o propósito de tiranizar, oprimir ou diminuir os méritos de um povo, isso é antiético e anticientífico, e Lynn tenta fazer isso de forma ostensiva.

No caso do Brasil, parece haver uma distorção perto de 10 a 15 pontos nos números apresentados por Lynn, então o QI médio correto do brasileiro deve ser cerca de 95, um pouco abaixo da média, mas não tanto a ponto de justificar os péssimos resultados do Brasil em Ciência. Os problemas reais parecem ser a preguiça e outros itens que mencionei acima. Há estudos recentes que questionam se o comportamento aparentemente preguiçoso deveria ser classificado exatamente como “preguiça” ou não, mas não vou entrar também nessa discussão para não tornar esse texto ainda mais longo.

Nos anos 1950 e 1960, Richard Feynman esteve algumas vezes no Brasil e fez críticas severas ao sistema educacional brasileiro, ele fez alguns experimentos sociais de improviso e mostrou que estudantes de doutorado brasileiros muitas vezes não compreendiam o básico sobre o que estavam fazendo, agiam mecanicamente, sem a menor noção sobre os fundamentos. Os brasileiros escreveram algumas palavras bonitas em relação às críticas de Feynman, dizendo que pretendiam melhorar alguma coisa, mas a situação atual é talvez até pior do que era na época em que Feynman esteve em nosso país. Além da situação vergonhosa da educação no Brasil, há ainda outros problemas nesse episódio, porque os “educadores” brasileiros demonstraram surpresa e perplexidade com os problemas apontados por Feynman, como se estivessem numa casa pegando fogo, mas não estivessem enxergando que o fogo estava devorando tudo, até que um vizinho entra e mostra o fogo a eles. Então eles agradecem, mostram-se chocados, fazem um discurso de mea-culpa, mas não fazem nada concreto em relação ao incêndio, que continua devastador… É inacreditável que não estivessem enxergando o fogo antes de o vizinho indicar a eles e é inacreditável que continuem sem tomar qualquer providência depois que o problema foi apontado.

Embora os cientistas e educadores não tenham se mobilizado para tentar resolver o problema, alguns expoentes brasileiros da Matemática, que tinham algumas experiências na Europa e nos Estados Unidos, decidiram tentar reproduzir um pequeno oásis, trazendo para o Brasil um pouco do que haviam experimentado em países desenvolvidos. Em 1952, foi fundado o IMPA (Instituto de Matemática Pura e Aplicada). Naquela época, o Brasil estava no Grupo I da IMU (International Mathematical Union), o nível mais baixo. Ao longo de 70 anos, o IMPA tem sido o único lugar no Brasil onde houve uma tentativa sincera de identificar e apoiar alguns talentos notáveis, tentando escapar da burocracia e da ineficiência do Sistema Educacional. Mas o IMPA é apenas 1 instituição situada no Rio de Janeiro. O Brasil é um país grande, com 8.500.000 km^2, de modo que as pessoas que moram longe do RJ muitas vezes não conseguem desfrutar o que o IMPA oferece. Por isso o alcance do IMPA ainda é pequeno. Com a popularização da Internet isso tem melhorado, mas o número de beneficiados ainda é muito limitado, inclusive porque há relativamente pouca divulgação dos eventos do IMPA, a maioria das escolas não inscreve seus alunos em OBM (Olimpíada Brasileira da Matemática), a maioria dos alunos nem sequer sabe que existe OBM. Há alguns professores espalhados pelo Brasil ligados ao IMPA, que tentam contribuir para a identificação de talentos, mas é um processo difícil, eles não recebem incentivo do governo, nem de empresas. Mesmo com esses obstáculos, entre 1952 e 2015 o IMPA elevou o Brasil do Grupo 1 para o Grupo 5 (o mais alto), do qual fazem parte apenas 11 países: Alemanha, Brasil, Canadá, China, EUA, França, Israel, Itália, Japão, Reino Unido e Rússia.

Não sei quais os critérios para ser incluído no Grupo 5 da IMU, mas suponho que seja uma combinação de mérito e política, talvez mais mérito do que política. Digo que há um pouco de política porque há países com duas medalhas Fields ou dois prêmios Abel, mas não fazem parte desse grupo, como Austrália, Bélgica, Irã e Suécia, enquanto o Brasil tem apenas 1 medalha Fields. Claro que esses prêmios não devem ser o único critério, mas são indicativos bastante razoáveis sobre a nata da matemática que se produz em cada país. Também há vários países com 1 medalha Fields e uma tradição matemática mais longa, que também não estão no Grupo 5. Talvez o critério leve em consideração o ritmo de crescimento, e nesse quesito o Brasil talvez seja, ao lado da China e da Índia, um dos que mais tem crescido na produção de Matemática de alto nível.

O fato é que se QI médio do brasileiro fosse realmente tão baixo quanto alega Richard Lynn, e o problema principal no Brasil fosse realmente o baixo QI médio da população, então as ações do IMPA não teriam sido capazes de modificar substancialmente a qualidade e a quantidade da produção matemática de alto nível. Se o problema fosse baixo QI, a solução viria de outras ações, como melhoras nutricionais, por exemplo. As ações do IMPA não alteraram o QI médio da população; apenas alteraram a eficiência na identificação de talentos que já existiam no país, e após a identificação passou a existir oferta de oportunidade e incentivo a esses talentos.

Os números apontados por Lynn, de que o QI médio do brasileiro seria 87, mostram-se inconsistentes com os resultados alcançados pelo IMPA. Mesmo com uma população de 213 milhões, seria difícil que algumas dessas pessoas chegassem ao topo mundial com raridade perto de 1 em 300 milhões se o Brasil estivesse 1 desvio padrão abaixo da média, mesmo porque o IMPA não consegue estender seus benefícios a mais do que 1% a 5% da população mais talentosa. Claro que outras hipóteses seriam aplicáveis, como um desvio padrão maior na distribuição de QI entre a população brasileira ou uma distribuição mais platicúrtica. Mas geralmente o que se observa em grupos com altura média menor é um desvio padrão mais estreito, em vez de mais largo. Isso acontece com praticamente todas as variáveis. O desvio padrão no diâmetro de parafusos maiores é mais largo do que em parafusos menores. Em outras palavras, o desvio padrão percentual geralmente é mantido, então seria estranho uma população com QI mais baixo ter desvio padrão maior. Além disso, seria um ajuste ad hoc para tentar salvar uma teoria que apresenta outros problemas, sendo mais plausível passar a navalha de Occam e aceitar que Lynn está equivocado sobre isso. O QI médio correto do brasileiro é substancialmente maior do que ele diz, assim como os QIs da maioria dos outros povos não-arianos, que ele tenta empurrar para baixo, também são maiores do que os números que ele apresenta.

Examinando objetivamente os fatos, o que os dados sugerem é que o QI médio do brasileiro provavelmente está bem mais perto de 95 do que de 87. Um pouco abaixo da média, mas não tão abaixo quanto Lynn sugere.

Os resultados do IMPA mostram também que talvez a preguiça seja um reflexo do péssimo sistema educacional. Se a preguiça fosse um problema generalizado no país, as soluções implementadas pelo IMPA também não teriam sido suficientes para resolver isso; seriam necessárias outras medidas complementares. Talvez a preguiça seja um problema marcante que atinge mais de 99% da população, mas cerca de 1% não poderia ser rotulada como “preguiçosa”, mas sim como vítima de um sistema educacional muito ruim. Como mais de 99% da produção intelectual vem desse 1%, temos aí um gigantesco problema, e uma completa falta de atenção sobre esse problema, porque os políticos não estão muito preocupados em empreender grandes esforços para conquistar 1% de votos, já que com menos esforço eles podem conseguir mais votos fingindo agradar a um público menos exigente, mais fácil de ludibriar e muito mais numeroso.

Um dos grandes problemas é que os 99% da população também são prejudicados, mas eles próprios não enxergam isso e não cobram do governo medidas que possam contribuir para melhorias a longo prazo, medidas que sejam boas e justas para todos. Cada um quer apenas que o governo adote medidas com resultados imediatos que beneficiem seus próprios umbigos. Desse modo, o problema tende a se perpetuar, como tem acontecido há décadas.

Muitos acadêmicos brasileiros costumam reclamar de falta de verbas e atribuir a baixa produção científica a isso. Outros fazem pior, fingem que há produção científica de boa qualidade no Brasil, apesar da falta de verba. Mas o que os fatos concretos mostram é que países realmente muito pobres, nos quais a maior parte da população vive na miséria, como Etiópia, Nigéria, Congo, Quênia, Gana etc. tiveram cidadãos laureados com o Nobel, enquanto no Brasil nunca houve um ganhador do Nobel. Além disso, quando Einstein desenvolveu seus principais trabalhos, pelos quais ele merecia 3 prêmios Nobel (e mais 2 por trabalhos posteriores), ele não estava recebendo nenhuma verba para suas pesquisas, nem nos anos anteriores. Portanto, embora a falta de recursos imponha limitações severas, não pode ser considerada um impedimento absoluto e muito menos ser usada como pretexto numa situação como essa. Grandes trabalhos foram realizados praticamente sem verba, como boa parte da obra de Newton, durante em 1665.

[Aqui talvez caiba uma pequena ressalva, porque conforme comentei na parte sobre prêmios e méritos, é possível que alguns brasileiros tenham realizado trabalhos com méritos para receber um Nobel, mas não foram laureados por questões políticas, burocráticas etc. Meus trabalhos sobre Econometria e Gerenciamento de Risco, por exemplo, são mais expressivos do que a maioria dos trabalhos dos laureados com o Nobel de Economia nas últimas décadas. A descoberta do méson π, embora tenha sido predominantemente um trabalho operacional, teve um brasileiro como protagonista (César Lattes), mas como o chefe da equipe era Celil Powell, Lattes tinha apenas um B.Sc. e na época (1950) o prêmio só era concedido ao chefe da equipe, Lattes acabou não recebendo o prêmio, embora tenha sido talvez o principal responsável por esse trabalho e foi o autor principal do artigo. Depois da detecção dos mésons π nos raios cósmicos (1947), Lattes era um dos poucos no mundo com o conhecimento necessário para identificar assinaturas deixadas por essas partículas nas placas de emulsão, por isso ele foi convidado a colaborar no CERN (1948) e verificar se eles também estavam conseguindo produzir mésons π, pois a energia necessária para isso era ultrapassada com folga pelo acelerador de partículas utilizado, portanto eles provavelmente já estavam produzindo pions há muito tempo (desde 1946), mas não sabiam exatamente o que deveriam procurar nas câmaras de bolha como sendo assinaturas dos mésons π. Lattes foi ao CERN e fez as identificações. Novamente o trabalho foi distinguido com o Nobel e novamente Lattes ficou fora da premiação. Ao todo, Lattes foi indicado 7 vezes para o Nobel, mas nunca chegou a ser premiado. Oswaldo Cruz também recebeu indicação ao Nobel de Medicina, mas não foi premiado. Talvez Machado de Assis também tivesse mérito para um Nobel de Literatura. Então, embora haja 0 brasileiros laureados com Nobel, talvez alguns tenham méritos para isso. Há um texto detalhado no qual analiso o caso de Lattes, sem os habituais exageros e distorções nacionalistas da maioria dos artigos sobre ele, mas ao mesmo tempo reconhecimento os méritos que ele teve e que não foram devidamente reconhecidos.]

Por um lado, a baixa produção científica reflete a falta de verba, por outro lado a falta de verba reflete a baixa produção científica, porque se houvesse realmente produção científica e tecnológica de boa qualidade, grandes empresas nacionais e internacionais teriam interesse em financiar essas pesquisas, pois teriam lucro com isso. Se empresas privadas não investem na ciência brasileira é porque tal “investimento” não gera expectativa de lucro, porque o nível de produção fica abaixo do que poderia justificar algum interesse sério dos empresários. Eu costumo usar o termo “doação” para a ciência brasileira em vez de “Investimento”, porque o significado de “investimento” é outro. O que os pesquisadores brasileiros reivindicam é basicamente isso: doação.

É importante deixar claro que não sou contra o financiamento da ciência brasileira, seja na forma de investimento, seja na forma de doação. Se eu fosse contra isso, seria uma estupidez. Eu sou contra a péssima gestão da verba destinada à Ciência, aliada ao péssimo sistema educacional e a completa falta de incentivo à produção intelectual. Produção intelectual não é escrever 50.000 papers inúteis para fingir que se está produzindo e continuar “mamando” nas bolsas das agências fomentadoras de “pesquisa”. Produção intelectual de verdade é se empenhar seriamente para resolver problemas reais e importantes. Por isso, em vez de ficar choramingando por falta de verba, o procedimento correto seria uma reformulação completa na palhaçada que acontece na Educação brasileira e na pesquisa “científica” brasileira, precisariam começar a produzir de verdade, com alta qualidade, como acontece no IMPA, e então apresentar fatos substanciais e argumentos consistentes para reivindicar investimentos. Sem isso, o discurso choroso para pedir doação é frágil. Certamente uma multidão de pesquisadores improdutivos me apedrejará por esse comentário, mas os poucos pesquisadores sérios concordarão comigo, embora talvez eles não tenham coragem de reconhecer publicamente a posição que defendem, para não serem linchados pelos colegas.

Talvez haja menos de 1% de pesquisadores sérios no Brasil, entre os quais tive a oportunidade de conhecer alguns, como Renato P. dos Santos, Roberto Venegeroles, André Gambaro, José Paulo Dieguez, Luis Anunciação, Antonio Piza, André Asevedo Nepomuceno, Herbert Kimura, Cristóvão Jaques, George Matsas, Doris Fontes entre outros. Mas infelizmente representam uma pequena fração, e nem sempre eles admitem abertamente a situação desastrosa em que se encontra a ciência brasileira, pois a pressão é grande para que finjam acreditar na encenação da qual a maioria dos outros faz parte. Quando a pessoa assume uma posição justa em relação a isso e diz verdades proibidas, ela começa a ser covardemente boicotadas por todos os lados, por isso é compreensível que muitos prefiram permanecer em silencia, evitando se manifestar, ou simplesmente fingir que concordam com a fantasia que tentam propagar a situação da Ciência e da Educação no Brasil. Muitos criticaram Copérnico devido ao prefácio de seu livro Revolutionibus, por ele não ter enfrentado de peito aberto as crenças dominantes, mas quando se analisa os problemas enfrentados por Galileu, fica claro que a defesa da verdade que contraria os interesses de determinados grupos pode ser muito oneroso. E seria ingênuo acreditar que as entidades que dominam o mundo atualmente (mídias, empresas, universidades, políticos etc.) sejam mais escrupulosos do que eram os eclesiásticos medievais. Certamente há algumas entidades mais idôneas e mais sinceramente empenhadas na defesa do que é certo e justo, mas são exceções, infelizmente. “Ironicamente” as mesmas pessoas que se mostram indignadas com a perseguição a Galileu são as pessoas que hoje praticam o mesmo tipo de abusos, injustiças e perseguições.

Essa é uma situação delicada, porque se a imensa maioria constrói uma farsa e finge que ela é real, torna-se difícil para que uma pequena minoria restabeleça a verdade. Por exemplo: Roberto de Andrade Martins é um pesquisador sério, com pós-doutorados em Cambridge e Oxford, com bons conhecimentos e boa compreensão de Física, Lógica e Epistemologia. Ele é completamente rechaçado pelos colegas e pelos que se dizem divulgadores “científicos”, porque Roberto diz verdades indesejáveis. Roberto nunca foi convidado para os grandes canais de divulgação científica do Brasil, embora ele seja de longe mais qualificado que a esmagadora maioria dos convidados para esses canais. Isso acontece porque nesses canais prefere-se as figuras mais “comerciais”, mais “carismáticas” aos olhos de quem finge se interessar por Ciência, em vez de cientistas sérios que digam verdades proibidas sobre a realidade trágica da ciência no país e da educação no país. Os youtubers que se dizem “divulgadores científicos” no brasil precisam escolher entre a verdade e a popularidade, e quase sempre preferem a segunda opção. Desse modo, vão arrastando uma farsa que em algum momento provocará o colapso do país, assim como aconteceu com a ex-URSS em 1991, ou com o banco Lehman Brothers em 2008. Foram varrendo a sujeira para baixo do tapete, até que chegou a um ponto em que a situação se torneou insustentável e o barraco caiu. Existem alguns poucos divulgadores científicos sérios no brasil, mas estes geralmente atingem um público muito menor, mais esclarecido e que já enxergam o problema sem que seja necessário que alguém mostre a eles. O público que realmente precisaria ser informado permanece “blindado”, para atender aos interesses de ninguém, já que ninguém lucrará com o naufrágio da nação. Certa vez Chomsky declarou que “o propósito da mídia não é o de informar o que acontece, mas sim moldar a opinião pública de acordo com a vontade do poder corporativo dominante”. Nesse caso é pior, porque não estão moldando a opinião pública de acordo com a vontade de ninguém. Estão apenas agindo estupidamente para o malefício de todos.

A hipocrisia é outro problema terrível que atinge grande número de acadêmicos brasileiros e de pseudo divulgadores da Ciência. Quando um estrangeiro vem ao brasil e diz que a ciência brasileira é uma piada, como fez Feynman, pisa e cospe na ciência brasileira, os acadêmicos brasileiros certamente não gostam, ficam envergonhados, mas mesmo assim eles aplaudem o macho alfa, como primatas bajuladores. Porém quando outro brasileiro aponta o mesmo problema, eles rosnam e vociferam contra o herege e tentam evitar que ele fale sobre isso.

Há mais algumas complicações que não podem ser negligenciadas: a maior parte da Ciência de ponta não tem aplicação imediata e pode levar décadas ou séculos até produzir algum retorno para o investidor. O diretor do departamento de Física Matemática da USP, Ph.D. pelo MIT e Post Doctoral pelo MIT, Antonio Fernando Ribeiro de Toledo Piza, que em 1994 quis me conhecer para conversar comigo sobre um trabalho que desenvolvi aos 19 anos, sobre um método para calcular fatoriais fracionários, no meio da conversa ele citou uma ocasião na qual perguntaram a Faraday para que serviam as descobertas que ele havia feito sobre a eletricidade e o magnetismo. Faraday respondeu com outra pergunta: “para que serve uma criança que acaba de nascer?” Essa frase exprime um problema complexo no tratamento da Ciência como “investimento”, porque a expectativa de vida humana atual é curta demais para que alguns investimentos em Ciência sejam enxergados como atraentes aos investidores particulares. São investimentos que só trarão retorno daqui a 50 anos, 100 anos ou mais, para as gerações seguintes, para nossos filhos, netos, bisnetos, é uma árvore que teremos o custo e o trabalho de plantar, adubar, cultivar, proteger, mas são nossos netos que colherão os frutos. Por esse motivo, mesmo em países nos quais a ciência se mostra prolífica, pode não ser atraente aos olhos dos investidores particulares, cujo horizonte de tempo que estão dispostos a aguardar por resultados costuma ser mais curto.

Feita essa ressalva importante, é necessário enfatizar que esse discurso seria falacioso se utilizado para tentar salvar a péssima reputação da ciência brasileira. O que se produz no brasil raramente pode sequer ser chamado “Ciência”. Faz-se tabulação de dados e relatórios descritivos sobre a tarefa. Para usar o argumento de Faraday a citei acima, em defesa do investimento na Ciência, antes seria necessário que o Brasil começasse a produzir Ciência de verdade.

Ciência de verdade envolve inovação, quebra de paradigma, aprimoramento real, análise crítica, profunda, que ultrapassa o óbvio e agrega algum conhecimento novo e útil ao legado da humanidade. No Brasil raramente se faz isso. Na verdade, no mundo raramente se faz isso, mas o nível de escassez de inovações é pior no Brasil do que em outros países com situação econômica similar ou com IDH similar.

Quando digo “quebra de paradigma” não precisa ser algo tão grandioso quanto um novo sistema cosmológico ou a uma teoria de unificação. Pode ser algo básico, como adicionar um pouco de boro às placas de emulsão fotográfica para preservar os registros dos mésons π até descer das montanhas, como fez César Lattes, ou resolver um problema de criptografia homomórfica que estava em aberto há 15 anos, como fez João Antonio L. J., ou desenvolver um novo sistema educacional que permite ensinar em 40 dias o conteúdo de 1 ano a uma criança que tinha notas abaixo da média e depois desses 40 dias a criança passa a ter as melhores notas da escola, como fez Tamara P. C. Rodrigues, ou revisar a fórmula de IMC, como eu fiz. São contribuições pequenas, mas que revelam fatos científicos ainda desconhecidos, ou corrigem conhecimentos que vinham sendo repetidos incorretamente há muito tempo, ou de algum modo contribuem para ampliar os horizontes do conhecimento ou para redirecionar o conhecimento para um caminho mais próximo da verdade. Não é uma completa desconstrução e reconstrução do conhecimento, como fez Newton, mas é um tijolo adicionado ao lugar certo, ou removido do lugar errado e reposicionado no lugar certo. Isso é o mínimo que seria esperado de um cientista, mas na grande maioria das vezes esse mínimo não é atendido, e os títulos de Ph.D. são distribuídos quase como um ritual, em que basta o candidato mostrar que sabe escrever e sabe interpretar um pouco do que esteja em alguns gráficos – com várias interpretações erradas, diga-se de passagem. Dependendo da disciplina, basta mostrar que sabe escrever, nem precisa saber ler um gráfico. Depois de cumprir o ritual, a pessoa recebe o rótulo de Ph.D. e começa a receber verba para prosseguir com essa palhaçada, fingindo que está produzindo Ciência.

A franca maioria das teses de doutorado e dos artigos científicos não apresenta nada de inovador. São títulos conferidos para inflar os egos e atender à vaidade das pessoas, mas não estão associados a nenhum mérito intelectual nem à produção científica original. A pessoa faz uma pesquisa elementar, puramente mecânica, para corroborar alguns resultados sobre os quais já existem centenas de outros estudos similares, e recebe um Ph.D. por isso, e o Estado paga a essas pessoas para fingir que estão produzindo algo relevante e chamam a isso “ciência brasileira”, mas o nome correto, na melhor das hipóteses, seria “tabulação de dados” e “relatórios descritivos”. Digo “na melhor das hipóteses” porque geralmente há vários erros crassos nesses procedimentos, o que torna a situação ainda mais vexatória.

O problema central é que não existe uma cultura de produzir inovações. Apenas repete-se interminavelmente. Não há incentivo à inovação, não há cobrança de inovações, não à recompensa para inovações e, o pior, há inclusive penalidades para inovações. Em 1998, uma amiga (Patrícia E. C.), que estava concluindo seu doutorado na USP, verificou que alguns dados experimentais sobre a morfologia de galáxia anãs era inconsistente com as expectativas. Em vez de seu orientador ajudá-la a tentar compreender o que poderia estar causando aquilo, ele disse a ela para refazer as medições, porque ela deveria ter errado nas medidas ou nos cálculos. Até esse ponto, concordo com ele, porque esses erros costumam ser os mais comuns. Ela refez e obteve resultados estatisticamente equivalentes aos das primeiras medições. Nesse ponto o alerta amarelo se torna vermelho e o orientador dela deveria ter dado mais atenção ao caso. Entretanto, ele disse para ela refazer outra vez! Isso é um completo absurdo. É anticientífico. É destruir “provas” que poderiam contribuir para ampliar, revisar, aprimorar o que se conhecia até então. Esse é o nível a que se encontra a seita chamada de “ciência brasileira”. Se alguma descoberta se opõe aos dogmas estabelecidos, precisa ser ajustada de alguma maneira até que fique em conformidade com os dogmas. Além de não haver incentivos às descobertas, quando há algum indício de que se pode estar diante a algo novo, tenta-se apagar os vestígios da possível descoberta! As pessoas são adestradas para não produzir, não inovar, não descobrir!

Parte do problema da Educação no país não é culpa dos professores, alunos e pesquisadores. Eles apenas dançam conforme a música. Mas uma grande parte do problema é culpa deles, porque eles determinam a música que deve tocar. Além disso, eles podem se recusar a dançar conforme a música, podem colocar fones de ouvido com músicas melhores e podem criar seu próprio centro de excelência, como no caso do IMPA.

A resistência da comunidade acadêmica em admitir esses fatos agrava a situação, porque em vez de tentar consertar os problemas, fingem que os problemas não existem, varrem a sujeira para baixo do tapete e seguem em frente, como se estivesse tudo bem. Recentemente o presidente do Brasil fez um corte brutal nas verbas destinadas à “ciência”. É uma situação delicada, porque o problema da improdutividade científica não se resolve assim. O corte de verba apenas agrava a situação. É ruim destinar verba a um setor que não gera resultados satisfatórios, mas sendo um setor fundamental, o procedimento correto é restaurar esse setor e assegurar que ele funcione como deveria, em vez de matá-lo, tirando-lhe o pão e a água. Precisaria trocar pão e água por uma dieta mais rica, aumentar o investimento em Ciência e simultaneamente reformular os critérios de concessão de bolsas, concessão de verbas, desburocratizar a importação de livros e de produtos científicos e tecnológicos, promover intercâmbios com pesquisadores capacitados, criar prêmios por mérito real relacionado à excelência na produção original de trabalhos relevantes, em vez dos prêmios políticos de fachada, entre muitas outras mudanças desde a educação de base até os títulos de professores eméritos.

Nos anos 1970, a China, a Índia e a Tailândia eram países muito mais pobres e menos desenvolvidos que o Brasil, mas fizeram investimentos massivos na identificação de crianças talentosas e ofereceram condições diferenciadas de incentivo a essas crianças. A Tailândia interrompeu o projeto. China e Índia mantiveram. Em menos de duas décadas, começaram a colher os frutos disso, depois de uma geração, essas crianças se tornaram professores altamente capacitados, que proporcionaram à geração seguinte uma educação ainda mais primorosa, e hoje a China caminha para se tornar a maior potência econômica, cultural, científica e tecnológica do mundo, e a Índia segue de perto. Houve uma reformulação séria e profunda no sistema de ensino para que pudessem chegar onde estão agora. Em vez de fingir que estavam fazendo Ciência, admitiram a improdutividade e a baixa qualidade do que produziam, e começaram a consertar o que estava errado. Um dos grandes problemas no Brasil é exatamente essa incapacidade de admitir os erros.

Footnotes

[1] Founder, Sigma Society; Creator, Sigma Test Extended.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 8). Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. June. 2022. <https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Hindemburg Melão Jr. on Gratitude and Clarifications, and Life, Views, and Work: Founder, Sigma Society (1)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/melao-1.

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2022-06-08

Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,347

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tianxi Yu (余天曦) is a Member of God’s Power, CatholIQ, Chinese Genius Directory, EsoterIQ Society, Nano Society, and World Genius Directory. He discusses: balance; supporting the talented and supporting the innately disadvantaged; communication range; professional options; finances; love; redefine the idea of a successful life; women; individuals who flaunt or brag about their I.Q.s; inability to take personal responsibility for one’s destiny tied to the laziness; basic research question; scientific discovery and research; a good lesson to take from individuals seeking 15 minutes; A.I. or other future technologies; infinite funding; blockchain; oxidative stress; deep learning; vanity or the flaunting; mindset to a more positive one; a smart person; wealth gap; collectivistic; fools confrontational about facts; society get better at the bottom; beauty in the world; the shortcomings of the world; ethics; encryption and distributed architecture; human progress; rare Earth metals; spheres of geopolitical influence; longevity research; deep-learning systems; intuitive capacities; balance between showing off and not boasting; God’s Power; Chen Ning Yang; and maintain quality control on membership and on discussions of God’s Power.

Keywords: CatholIQ Society, Chinese Genius Directory, EsoterIQ Society, God’s Power, Nano Society, research, science, Tianxi Yu, World Genius Directory.

Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Should there be a balance between the development of the most talented into creative and scientific endeavours, and the devotion to helping individuals on the opposing side of the scale with various levels of mental and physical disabilities? Or should there be a skew of some form of resources devoted to the more talented due to the return on investment in this particular population?

Tianxi Yu (余天曦)[1],[2]*: I think the care for the weak should not be downgraded. The civilization of society is not the position of the strong, but more the posture of the weak. Many people with disabilities also make great contributions to the world.

Jacobsen: What are the considerations in Chinese society regarding supporting the talented and supporting the innately disadvantaged? Those natural variations in mental character?

Yu: Relative subsidies exist.

Jacobsen: Leta Stetter Hollingworth, apparently, proposed a communication range of 30 I.Q. points, unsure of the standard deviation, for effective communication. If true, and many in the high-I.Q. communities seem to accept this, then this would imply a truth to individuals of similar mental talent capable of equal comprehension, while geniuses, to non-geniuses, may appear as idiots, morons, or childlike. Although, simply claiming, “A lot of people believe this,” doesn’t make this more correct or even right in the first place. Regardless, does this seem true to you, as in “only people at the top of the world can understand each other”?

Yu: Yes, people at the relative bottom will never be able to understand the people standing at the top in their lifetime, and at best they can only be jealous and catch the lace. The top is often lonely because only a very small number of people can reach the top, and those who can’t understand are at the bottom for the rest of their lives.

Jacobsen: You have many professional options before you, especially in an international context, having talent, and in an era where personal and professional reinvention are necessities rather than options. What professions, at the moment, appeal to you, even if only temporarily?

Yu: Graduate student? At the moment, I am probably more interested in upgrading my education. but if I have to say a career, trader is more suitable for me at the moment. Although I said before that I like to do research work, but undergraduate degree in research work not many opportunities for promotion, may not even be a researcher for life.

Jacobsen: I remember the focus on the finances for you. It makes sense when not coming from money to want plentiful Yuan. Canadians are the same. If lacking family connections and monies, then they desire lots and lots of dollars. So, if you’ve shifted from financial focus to academic activities, what academic disciplines interest you?

Yu: Blockchain, oxidative stress, deep learning, etc.

Jacobsen: I have read about these trends in China, where the individuals do not want love because love gets mixed with obligations and responsibilities tied to extensive financial burdens over decades. Burdens in numerous areas in life. It shows structural issues in contradiction to individual sensibilities and values. People value love. Whereas, society continues to adjust to globalization, impacts from Covid-19 (and variants), and the wedge of economic inequality. Love fails in this environment. Partnership becomes practical oriented rather than intimacy oriented. Individuals revolt from this, East and West. Does this seem to reflect the issues mentioned about education costs, mortgage costs, and so on?

Yu: Yes, love is originally an act of mutual solicitation, people are self-interested animals, if the cost of love is much higher than the pleasure they can get, people will also give up courting.

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, what if societies began to redefine the idea of a successful life? Similar to yourself, you shifted from a focus on money to academics.

Yu: I’d love to see that happen, that means we’re moving in a good direction

Jacobsen: Why do women make you weak in the legs?

Yu: Hahaha, that comes from a movie called “Rocky”, I just used that as a tease.

Jacobsen: Is it common among the high-I.Q. communities, more in interpersonal conversation rather than in public, to resent individuals who flaunt or brag about their I.Q.s? Is it similar to individuals who boast about professional associations (or professional associations that they claim to have) or individuals who they know (or claim to know)? Some will claim – and I’ve seen this in public fora – intelligence is simply the most important human trait.

Yu: It is very common, similar to the phenomenon you mentioned. Many people are in reality a loser, nothing professional skills, and the IQ community is the only relatively higher level circle they can access, so it is easy to inspire their vanity.

Jacobsen: Is inability to take personal responsibility for one’s destiny tied to the laziness, lack of motivation, procrastination, and so on? Even the idea, since so smart, people should simply hand them things in life, i.e., entitlement.

Yu: I do think that, for whatever reason, in the end it is the negativity that causes them not to take responsibility for this, and these negative factors are often the result of laziness, procrastination, etc.

Jacobsen: What is the basic research question asked in “Infectious disease risk calculation and storage system based on 3-tier network system”?

Yu: A 3-tier network system proposed for current information security and anonymization to address risk assessment of various infectious diseases.

Jacobsen: With scientific discovery and research as a core interest for you, what 5 streams of research are the most interesting to you?

Yu: Hard to answer this question… I usually pay attention to the scientific achievements mainly to read what breakthroughs and representative papers inside the latest journals, not according to the direction I am interested in, only reading what I am interested in will make my vision become narrow. If I have to say, life science, magnetic structure, energy, blockchain, materials may be relatively more interested.

Jacobsen: You resent IQ boasters. Individuals who flaunt their IQ, whether real or fake. What seems like a good lesson to take from individuals seeking 15 minutes, or less, of fame?

Yu: Showing off can only look empty inside, just like when you say “you look like a fool” to Einstein, he has no ripples in his heart, but when you say “you look like a fool” to a fool, he will often argue with you.

Jacobsen: Do you think A.I. or other future technologies may narrow the gap between those at the top and those at the bottom?

Yu: No, gap will only get bigger, but the life of the bottom will also get better, but they are less likely to become the upper class.

Jacobsen: If you had infinite funding, so money was not an issue, what would like to do most?

Yu: First go around the world and see its beauty and shortcomings, then try to fill those shortcomings (charity, grants, foundations, etc.), and finally invest the money in disciplines that can make the world better: life sciences, information sciences, interdisciplinary disciplines, etc.

Jacobsen: What aspects of blockchain seem the most interesting to you?

Yu: Encryption technology and distributed architecture. The history of mankind is the history of the pursuit of security, of which cryptography is crucial because it is relatively abstract and therefore easily overlooked. But it is undeniable that it has been closely related to human progress.

Jacobsen: Is oxidative stress a solid foundation of research for longevity?

Yu: Correlation exists, and ROS is strongly associated with longevity. The relationship between oxidative stress and longevity is complex. In general, oxidative stress causes aging, but it has also been found that oxidative stress early in life prolongs lifespan.

Jacobsen: How is deep learning advancing?

Yu: Deep learning is the process of learning the intrinsic laws of sample data so that machines can have the same analytical learning ability as humans. The internal principle is also complex, let’s say a two-layer neural network, the first layer is called the coding layer and the second layer is called the decoding layer, input samples to train the first layer of RBM units and use their output to train the second layer of RBM models, stack the RBM models to improve the model performance by adding layers.

Jacobsen: Are there any controls on the vanity or the flaunting within the communities?

Yu: No, but generally no strength to show off will also be despised by others.

Jacobsen: How might they change their mindset to a more positive one? As they age, those thought and behaviour patterns simply become more fixed.

Yu: I have posted related my reflections on CHIN web and also admonished others not to be too impatient in the usual chat, hoping it would help them. I can reveal a little bit, the only Chinese society I am currently in-God’s Power (the president is Wu), will soon be joined by Chen Ning Yang, and there will be a lot of great people to follow, I hope these people will join to bring more positive influence, so that members can focus more on their own improvement.

Jacobsen: Once a smart person knows of their smarts, you point out an equanimity. Not necessarily an internal calm, a simple self-knowledge, something unable to knock them off their feet, as in the Einstein example. Is the boasting and the look of emptiness inside of showing off more internally developed or externally influenced? Is this lack coming from inside or the pressure to perform coming from outside?

Yu: I think the internal development of more general flaunting is a manifestation of low self-esteem and emptiness, in the case of not being recognized by the external environment internally affected, thus giving rise to low self-esteem or emptiness.

Jacobsen: If the wealth gap widens, how will this impact the structure of societies?

Yu: The situation is more complicated, in the case of insufficient resources, the gap between the rich and the poor will widen to make the society more unstable; if the resources are sufficient and the people at the bottom can live a very easy life, then the gap between the rich and the poor will not have too much impact on social stability.

Jacobsen: From the last question, how will this change the values of societies, whether individualistic or collectivistic? Although, the terms “individualistic” and “collectivistic” are, in a way, inaccuracies, approximations.

Yu: I hope it is collectivism, the individual can only go to promote the collective, but the result is not how the individual can influence.

Jacobsen: Why are fools confrontational about facts – making a fight where a dialogue or acceptance would be more useful?

Yu: Because they themselves do not know what the other side is talking about, what they say is not thought through, only want to tell others in the momentum he is not to be messed with.

Jacobsen: How will society get better at the bottom?

Yu: Depends on the level of social development and how it is developed.

Jacobsen: What is beauty in the world?

Yu: Beautiful scenery, beautiful people, pleasant acts of kindness, and feeling the care from the community.

Jacobsen: What are the shortcomings of the world?

Yu: Not big enough.

Jacobsen: The disciplines emphasized to make the world better seem devoted more to sciences: “life sciences, information sciences…” Science remains morally neutral, directly, and ethically informative, derivatively. What ethic should guide the findings of science to “make the world better”?

Yu: Philosophy.

Jacobsen: How are encryption and distributed architecture crucial to human progress?

Yu: Removing the traditional credibility so that the people can also enjoy affirmative action, also provides protection in terms of information security and personal safety.

Jacobsen: What factors determine human progress?

Yu: Human curiosity about the unknown.

Jacobsen: This distributed architecture, more or less, can refer to electronic infrastructure in nations, between nations, and orbiting the Earth. Rare Earth metals are crucial to their operation: lanthanum (57), cerium (58), neodymium (60), samarium (62), europium (63), terbium (65), and dysprosium (66). What could future shortages or attempts at monopolization of rare Earth metals by powerful geopolitical players make of global security with more for one group over others?

Yu: Unless we enter a period of extreme war, the impact of rare earth monopoly or not is not significant.

Jacobsen: Lee Kuan Yew spoke of the world of the 21^st century as one transitioning from a unipolar world to a multipolar world with spheres of geopolitical influence. Does this seem like the future for 21^st century?

Yu: Yes, I think so too.

Jacobsen: Which longevity research seems the most legitimate to you?

Yu: Inhibition of kidney-type glutaminase-dependent glutaminolysis in eliminates senescent cell; Immune drivers that induce aging in the organism’s brain; Prevention of mitochondrial damage or decline in mitochondrial function with age; NAD+ can restore age-related muscle degeneration; Small molecule ISR inhibitors hold promise for rejuvenating the brain…and so on

Jacobsen: As humans have variation in analytical ability, computers have differences in analytical capability. How close are deep-learning systems from achieving average-level human generalized intelligence in analytical domains?

Yu: Soon.

Jacobsen: How might intuitive capacities be built into machines?

Yu: Information between neurons is transmitted by electrical signals, which are detected and interpreted for the purpose of guiding the machine. However, the skull blocks/distorts the electrical signals, making this technique more difficult to implement.

Jacobsen: What is the proper balance between showing off and not boasting?

Yu: Whether it turns others off.

Jacobsen: Why join God’s Power?

Yu: Because I think God’s Power will become the No.1 high IQ society in China.

Jacobsen: How did Chen Ning Yang become part of it (soon)? Did he come to God’s Power? Or was he asked to join it?

Yu: Wu and Yang will have an interview in mid-June, and Yang has also accepted Wu’s invitation.

Jacobsen: How will you maintain quality control on membership and on discussions of God’s Power?

Yu: Lead them to struggle, stimulate their desire to struggle, and make them work harder for reality rather than for IQ scores.

Footnotes

[1] Member, God’s Power; Member, CatholIQ; Member, Chinese Genius Directory; Member, EsoterIQ Society; Member, Nano Society; Member, World Genius Directory.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 8). Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. June. 2022. <https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Research and God’s Power: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (3)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-3.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-08

Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,049

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Justin Duplantis works in computational biology and will complete his MBA specializing in data analytics this month. A lifetime member of the Triple Nine Society, he served as an Executive Committee member and Editor of their journal, Vidya. He is a father of two profoundly gifted boys, whom joined him in Mensa membership at the ages of two and three. Justin has interests in high IQ communities, intelligence, and intelligence research, as measured by IQ tests. Beyond that, he is a former professional billiards player and is currently playing in Israel in the Israeli Elite Hockey League (IEHL). He discusses: the big change in life; ordinary education; boys; the development of the child who hit the ceiling at 150; learning styles; a reverse classroom; the possible deviancies; relationship with executive positions and membership within the Triple Nine Society; developments in thoughts on fatherhood; the Ph.D.; and overall intellectual giftedness, as defined by IQ.

Keywords: Bill Nye, computational biology, data analytics, Justin Duplantis, No Child Left Behind, Triple Nine Society.

Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Apparently, a lot has changed since the last interview. So, first things first, what has been the big change in life for you?

Justin Duplantis[1],[2]*: So many things… I have diverged from my PhD pursuit and will complete my MBA in Data Analytics in just a few weeks. My son was diagnosed with medulloblastoma and went through nearly a year of treatment at St Jude Childrens Research Center. I am currently in Israel playing hockey in the IEHL.

Jacobsen: We talked about giftedness and humane considerations last time. The idea of ‘human first, and gifted second,’ to paraphrase you. What is the range of intelligence best suited for ordinary education in America now?

Duplantis: One SD on either side should be considered normalized education. The key is the need for even more segmentation than one group below and one group above. At minimum, 3+ SD on either side should have specialized education beyond. Although statistically the population that would fall into these categories would make fielding a class impractical/improbable, the potential for bussing to a regional facility would be the optimal option.

Jacobsen: Boys seem to be failing in numerous areas of education. Are there particular characteristics of asynchronous development amongst gifted boys even further exaggerated within this trend in education?

Duplantis: Speaking from a personal, rather than research-based perspective, males and females are stimulated by different things. This is not meant to be all-encompassing, rather a general rule. Regardless of intellect and age, males tend to be more boisterous and silly. The eye rolling from females begins early and follows us into old age. There are exceptions to every rule, but I am not one. My spouse has become an expert eye roller and her amusement for my dad jokes waned quickly.

Jacobsen: How is the development of the child who hit the ceiling at 150 now?

Duplantis: Both of my sons are in this range. They are now five and six years of age and are homeschooled. After much debate between my wife and I, we determined that was the best option for our family. They are both completing third grade work, at the moment. This puts my eldest a year or so ahead, with my youngest three.

Jacobsen: Is different learning styles a euphemism for excusing poor cognitive performance in general? Or are differing styles of learning a legitimate phenomenon, empirically?

Duplantis: Empirically! Homeschooling our boys has been a welcomed challenge in our home. When teaching concepts, especially mathematics, the way in which a concept is grasped is not necessarily the same for both boys. They are of relatively equivalent intellect, yet their minds work in much different ways.

Jacobsen: What is the proper way to draw a thread and set bounds for the educational pathway for the young? Bill Nye spoke of a reverse classroom, not his idea, probably, where students spend time learning more in their own time rather than more with teachers. I do not know if this will work in conditions with more dependent thinkers rather than more independent students. By “independent,” I do not mean bold morons who think without acting; I mean individuals who think things through more methodically prior to making decisions for themselves or before integration of information into their knowledge networks.

Duplantis: The fact of the matter is that it is vital for parents and loved ones that surround children to enhance and cultivate the learning experience and process. A classroom is only going to teach so much. The true learning, as Bill Nye is referencing, is done outside those walls. It comes down to supporting and cultivating the interests of your children. When they latch on to an interest, provide them with the proper resources, outings, and conversations to allow them to dive deeper. In early development, it does not matter what your child is reading, as long as they are learning to love it.

Jacobsen: What are the possible deviancies, the pathways, for ‘troubled’ gifted youth? Any famous cases to exemplify some of these?

Duplantis: Idle hands…. The gifted often find themselves sitting in a class listening to a teacher repeat the same information over and over so the remedial students will grasp the concept. The passing of No Child Left Behind only exacerbated this by placing a strong emphasis on test scores. Teachers now, more than ever, need to ensure that all students are grasping the concepts prior to moving forward. The gifted are left thinking of ways to entertain themselves, which is oftentimes outside of the guidelines of the classroom rules. This is not a new phenomenon. In fact, pop culture has pointed to this for nearly 100 years. It is called evil genius after all….

Jacobsen: What is your relationship with executive positions and membership within the Triple Nine Society now?

Duplantis: Very little. In the most recent election there ended up being vacancies. I advised the Regent, Thorsten Heitzmann, that I would be willing to take up post. He opted to go with alternative volunteers.

Jacobsen: Any further developments in thoughts on fatherhood?

Duplantis: With my son having to go through cancer treatment it really put life into perspective. The most important thing is time. We will never get it back so one must cherish each moment. Hold your children, talk to them, spend time with them. They are only the age they are today, today.

Jacobsen: Have you received the Ph.D., or not? Whether yes or no, what is the status of the research answer(s) to the original question(s)?

Duplantis: As mentioned previously, I have opted to go down a different route and am only pursuing research on a personal level for the enrichment of my children.

Jacobsen: How have you defined “overall intellectual giftedness, as defined by IQ” in the research?

Duplantis: To be clear, intellectual giftedness and IQ are different items, although oftentimes utilized interchangeably. One can be intellectually gifted in a certain subject without having an overall IQ that is noteworthy. My key interest are not in the general intellectually gifted, rather those with IQs in the 3+ SD range. This is where the commonality of characteristics shine through most. I care not only about the education of these individuals, but their mental fortitude in a world that is not built for their speed.

Footnotes

[1] Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society; Former Editor, Vidya; Former Executive Committee Member, Triple Nine Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6) [Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 8). Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6) . Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6.

Brazilian Natio0ffffffnal Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Justin Duplantis on Updates, Ordinary Education, Boys, Development, Reverse Classroom, and Fatherhood: Lifetime Member, Triple Nine Society (6) [Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/duplantis-6.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-08

Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,025

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Entemake Aman ( 阿曼 ) claims an IQ of 180 (SD15) with membership in OlympIQ. With this, he claims one to be of the people with highest IQ in the world. He was born in Xinjiang, China. He believes IQ is innate and genius refers to people with IQ above 160 (SD15). Einstein’s IQ is estimated at 160. Aman thinks genius needs to be cultivated from an early age, and that he needs to make achievements in the fields he is interested in, such as physics, mathematics, computer and philosophy, and should work hard to give full play to his talent. He discusses: the Chinese of today; other interests of Chinese people of the older generations; “good learning” as high I.Q.; basic philosophical premise of Chinese education; Mensa stopped testing in China; Wayne Zhang; Qiao Han Sheng; known Chinese high-I.Q. community members in OlympIQ; Sheng Han’s I.Q. Society; the answers of “slseii, slse48 and numerus”; Wen-chin su; the best universities in China; Chinese education and intensive study; exam oriented style of education; the division between science and liberal arts; English emphasized in the education; get into the top university; fate; exam oriented educational system; key middle schools; Chinese education; unlikely to do well in Chinese education; and the major math and physics competitions in China.

Keywords: China, Chinese Culture, Chinese Schooling, Entemake Aman, OlympIQ Society.

Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: If I.Q. doesn’t interest the Chinese of today, or “only a few people,” what interests modern Chinese people of the young generation? What interests Chinese people of the older generations?

Entemake Aman (阿曼)[1],[2]*: Young people in China are interested in online games, mobile Tiktok apps and other projects. The old man is interested in chess and playing cards.

Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, what are other interests of Chinese people of the older generations?

Aman: The older generation of Chinese are interested in chess, playing cards and the entertainment equipment in the nursing home. In China’s IQ circle, I haven’t seen anyone with an IQ of more than 160 (SD15) and over the age of 60.

Jacobsen: How do Chinese nationals interpret “good learning” as high I.Q., or as a proxy for higher intelligence?

Aman: In China, the IQ of those who study very well is generally between 120 and 130. They often get close to full marks in physics and mathematics. This gives ordinary people the impression that they are geniuses.

Jacobsen: Why has Mensa stopped testing in China?

Aman: Because the former chairman of Mensa didn’t run it well. And British Mensa won’t let it be held in China again.

Jacobsen: What makes Wayne Zhang known in Chinese high-I.Q. culture?

Aman: Wayne Zhang is very low-key. He is the first Olympiq member in China. He is from Shanghai. I haven’t heard anything about him for 10 years.

Jacobsen: What makes Qiao Han Sheng known in Chinese high-I.Q. culture?

Aman: He is the founder of HRIQ (the threshold is 146.3, SD15) association and is well-known.

Jacobsen: Who are the other known Chinese high-I.Q. community members in OlympIQ now?

Aman: Olympiq has several Chinese who cheated in, but there is no evidence. Because some test answers leaked. I hope you can contact Jon and tell him about it. There is also Wang Peng, a well-known member of Olympiq. He once published a book about Mensa

Jacobsen: How is Sheng Han’s I.Q. Society building membership? What are the tests taken for membership into the society?

Aman: Chen Wen Jin is the founder of Sheng Han. His association accepts IQ tests designed by him.

Jacobsen: Who leaked the answers of “slseii, slse48 and numerus”?

Aman: Some people with strong vanity and insufficient IQ leaked it. Anyway, some super high scores in China can’t be trusted. China has 15 people with an IQ of more than 170sd15.

Jacobsen: What was the test Wen-Chin Su scored highest on?

Aman: Numerus Classic 36/36.

Jacobsen: How does Chinese education and intensive study for 12 years differ from other countries of the world?

Aman: Anyway, I feel very hard. I’m not very clear about education abroad, but I heard that education in the United States as a child focused on interest, talent and happiness.

Jacobsen: Is the exam oriented style of education good or bad, in your opinion?

Aman: For most ordinary people (those with IQ below 130, SD15), exam oriented education is good, but it’s too hard. I don’t think it’s good for people with an IQ of more than 130, SD15, because I think we should pay more attention to the talents and interests of people with high IQ, rather than just reciting a lot of knowledge.

Jacobsen: Why the division between science and liberal arts?

Aman: Because universities need to choose majors that pay attention to liberal arts and science when choosing majors, and liberal arts majors pay more attention to recitation.

Jacobsen: Also, why is English emphasized in the education?

Aman: Because English is an international language, some college graduates will study abroad after graduation.

Jacobsen: What score does one need out 750 to get into the top university in the country?

Aman: Most of the top universities in the United States do not accept China’s college entrance examination.

Jacobsen: You mentioned, “Fate.” Why does education determine one’s fate in Chinese society?

Aman: Only when you enter a good university can you have the opportunity to enter a high paying company. Large companies pay attention to college entrance examination scores and the university popularity.

Jacobsen: When does this exam oriented educational system begin for Chinese youth, e.g., age, grade, etc.?

Aman: First grade at the age of 6 to 7 and high school at the age of 15 to 18.

Jacobsen: Why are key middle schools and good teachers the most important for the trajectory of one’s life in Chinese society?

Aman: It’s hard to get high marks in China’s college entrance examination. You must have good teachers to teach you. My personal experience tells me that if the teacher doesn’t teach well, probably there will be no good results in the college entrance examination.

Jacobsen: How does Chinese education fail geniuses?

Aman: Among the 15 Chinese with an IQ of more than 170 (sd15), none of them went to Tsinghua University and Peking University. Most of them went to ordinary universities. China’s education pays great attention to recitation and the application of knowledge. The requirement of g factor in the college entrance examination is 120. The rest depends on non intellectual factors such as effort, teachers and luck. And there are only four to six Chinese universities in the world’s top 100.

Jacobsen: Why are I.Q.s above 140, in your opinion, unlikely to do well in Chinese education (and so society)?

Aman: China’s college entrance examination system pays more attention to recitation and the ability to use knowledge. Smart people from 120 to 130 can go to Tsinghua University and Peking University through efforts, but it is very difficult and needs to work very hard. 1 3000 students can go to these two universities. IQ over 140 (SD15) doesn’t have much advantage in the college entrance examination. IQ over 140 (SD15) is more active in thinking. I think we should pay more attention to their innovative thinking and imagination can make them become talents.

Jacobsen: What are the major math and physics competitions in China?

Aman: Only students from key senior high schools are eligible to participate in the physics competition and mathematics competition of Chinese senior high school students.

Footnotes

[1] Member, OlympIQ Society; Member, Mensa International.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 8). Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3.

Brazilian Natio0ffffffnal Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sfffffightpublishing.com/aman-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Entemake Aman (阿曼) on the Chinese, Chinese Culture, and Chinese Schooling: Member, OlympIQ Society (3)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/aman-3.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-08

Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,135

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Matthew Scillitani, member of The Glia Society and The Giga Society, is a web developer and SEO specialist living in North Carolina. He is of Italian and British lineage, and is predominantly English-speaking. He earned his bachelor’s degree in psychology at East Carolina University, with a focus on neurobiology and a minor in business marketing. He’s previously worked as a research psychologist, data analyst, and writer, publishing over three hundred papers on topics such as nutrition, fitness, psychology, neuroscience, free will, and Greek history. You may contact him via e-mail at mattscil@gmail.com. He discusses: the Giga Society; the point; the main cautionary notes about high-I.Q. communities; the benefits; self-knowledge; education; exciting developments; major disappointments; and having children.

Keywords: Giga Society, Matthew Scillitani, realization, self-knowledge.

Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Do you think the Giga Society has fulfilled its function as an incentive for taking high-range tests?

Matthew Scillitani[1],[2]*: Yes, absolutely. Many people have told me they’ve taken several (sometimes dozens) high-range I.Q. tests to try to qualify. Qualifying for the the Giga Society wasn’t something I even considered as a possibility for myself until I finished Psychometric Qrosswords though, the test I eventually qualified with.

Jacobsen: A question sitting in the backs of a lot of people’s minds, “What is the point?” Why take part in the societies? Why take these tests? What purpose do these fulfill in personal terms and in practical benefit outside of the provision of some fun puzzles to solve?

Scillitani: Well, joining high-I.Q, societies used to be one of the few ways to actually correspond with other intelligent people in the pre-internet era. With how many internet forums there are now, societies are largely unnecessary for that purpose though I think. The main reasons I’ve joined high-I.Q. societies was to either take free I.Q. tests or for some minor recognition. It’s not an achievement to have a high I.Q. but it’s always nice to be recognized for having some positive quality about you, like being freakishly tall or abnormally handsome or whatever. Something else I get out of these societies, most notably Paul Cooijmans’ Glia Society, is lots of communication with other members on topics like STEM, politics, religion, and so forth. Some members who have very bright ideas also present them to the society for feedback, which is another benefit of membership. There are other benefits too, like being able to publish papers, puzzles, and play games like chess against wickedly smart opponents, to name a few.

As for taking the tests, I took my first high-range I.Q. test after seeing an interview of Rick Rosner and thinking, ‘I wonder how I’d score on one of those tests.’ After I got my results I had the typical dopamine rush one gets when they do well on something and was immediately hooked and took even more tests. The benefit of test-taking outside of learning about your own intellectual capabilities and for fun is the most important reason of all: to contribute to the research of intelligence and genius. If we can learn which qualities make a genius and can accurately measure them then that’ll go a long way in discovering potential geniuses when they’re young. Maybe there are 500 geniuses on Earth right now but 450 of them have been tossed aside and are working jobs far below their ability level. Very few geniuses are “charismatic” so it happens very often that their geniusness is mistaken for stupidity and they go unnoticed their whole lives. With accurate testing, this can be avoided and we’ll have many more geniuses to aid in the advancement of mankind.

Jacobsen: What are the main cautionary notes about high-I.Q. communities for you?

Scillitani: Hmm, so far I haven’t had many bad experiences in any high-I.Q. communities I’ve been in. There are a few members with weak egos who are quick to anger but aside from that I’d say people with high I.Q.s are more respectful, polite, mentally stable, ethical, and kind than in the general population. If someone ever founds a town of only high-I.Q. society members I’d move there.

Jacobsen: What are the benefits to those who take part in healthy high-I.Q. community life?

Scillitani: The benefits I listed in a previous question apply here too but I’ll add that it is also a great way to make high-quality friends.

Jacobsen: How has self-knowledge, at least, of a higher I.Q. than the norm of the population influenced personal decisions to pursue higher education?

Scillitani: It hasn’t influenced my decisions too much regarding education. I was enrolled in a university before I ever took a high-range I.Q. test or joined any societies, although I considered dropping out several times because I have an extreme dislike of school. I would say on a positive note that it definitely boosted my confidence to know my I.Q. score and be a member of high-I.Q. societies. In terms of education, nothing seems off limits or scary to deal with for me. I passed Calculus I and II collectively in under two months after teaching them to myself, and I wouldn’t have had the confidence to do that prior to knowing my I.Q. score.

Jacobsen: It’s been a hot minute since we last chatted. How is education going, by the way?

Scillitani: I’ve moved away from psychology and business and am now pursuing a degree in Computer Science! I’m hoping I can find a stable day job and make some cool apps in my spare time so I can hopefully retire at an early age.

Jacobsen: Any new, fun, or exciting developments on the educational front?

Scillitani: There’s nothing too exciting going on aside from being somewhat close to getting another degree. I think I’m just ten or so classes away from that.

Jacobsen: What are your major disappointments with the high-I.Q. communities? I’ve had two people, recently, comment on this to me. One left a high-I.Q. society. Another wanted all listings online completely removed from them. So, in this light, people can be disillusioned from prior expectations or considerations about those communities. Many gain some modicum of benefit. While, at the same time, I get those stories, too. The question seems apt with the two recent cases.

Scillitani: My biggest disappointment by far is from something I’ve learned from high-I.Q. communities and not something regarding those communities themselves. Maybe this will come across as arrogant but what I learned is that most people, the extreme majority even, have incredibly weak mental powers. If you do well on an I.Q. test there will be many problems that you solve instantly and think even a toddler could get but when you learn that most people get every single answer wrong or can only answer one or two problems correctly it shatters the illusion that everyone around you is able to actually form coherent thoughts.

Jacobsen: Do you think having children influenced the perspective on getting things more right the next time around with proper facilitation and education of the gifted young?

Scillitani: I don’t have any kids yet (aside from my dachshund, who I treat like a child). I was a child myself once though, and I definitely want to have my future children I.Q. tested at an early age to help figure out how to best accommodate their educational needs. I’d like them to be with children their own age so rather than skipping grades there may be private school options for gifted children that my wife and I can look into. They could always be intellectually average though; we’ll just have to wait and see.

Footnotes

[1] Member, Giga Society; Member, Glia Society. Bachelor’s Degree, Psychology, East Carolina University.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7) [Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7) . Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7.

Brazilian Natio0ffffffnal Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sfffffightpublishing.com/scillitani-7>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7) ’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Matthew Scillitani on the Giga Society and the Realizations: Member, Giga Society (7) [Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/scillitani-7.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–2022. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-08

Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,408

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tomáš Perna is a Member of the World Genius Directory and United Giga Society. He discusses: the family fight against German Nazism; the heroic stories; theology; simple countrywoman; police inspection; the emotional sense of aloneness; denomination of Christianity; the 4D-differential structure; commercial software; the common sense of quantum theory and relativity; the fundamental definition of philosophy; maths; I.Q. tests; the administered test in the design office; isolation; Socrates; Shakespeare; Newton; Euler; Poe; Mácha; Einstein; the natural or organic aesthetics of parsimony; mastery of the norms of an environment; numerical and logical capacities of computers; the explanatory gap between the human Central Nervous System and digital computational systems; the soul; God; symbolic parables; non-denominational, non-religious theism; scientific research; the prime virtues; Nature; Theologians; free will; human possibilities and natural limitations; Entities-Identity searching; Idealism; and our identities.

Keywords: freedom of the will, German Nazism, God, science, Tomáš Perna, United Giga Society, virtues, World Genius Directory.

Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How did the father of your mother and his brothers fight against German Nazism?

Tomáš Perna[1],[2]*: Well, it was in the framework of intelligence service and resistance activities organized by the group called Clay Eva in North Moravia (a part of Reichsprotektorat Böhmen und Mähren). Two brothers of my grandfather were directly involved in the leadership of the organization. My grandfather had contacts and was trying to use and activate them for the group´s goals. The whole group was finally betrayed by one of its closest cooperators.

Jacobsen: What were some of the heroic stories, if the family stories can be told in a public forum, in fighting against the National Socialists of Weimar Germany?

Perna: As I have mentioned above, it was in the Reichsprotektorat, not in Weimar Germany in its concrete sense. As to your question – I feel that I cannot highlight some particular act, there were many “everyday acts” of their heroism. I admire that (during their arrest by Gestapo) they withstand horrible tortures without betraying of any person or contact of the group. It is already very hard to imagine it.

Jacobsen: As an admixture of Czech, Polish, and Italian, Christians, was theology or doctrine discussed much in the family home?

Perna: Not directly, my parents, especially father, explained to me that the world gives no sense without a deep belief in God.

Jacobsen: What was the story of this “simple countrywoman”? It has been said: Intelligence is passed matrilineally. Maybe, not so simple after all, perhaps.

Perna: If it is really the case, then I can express the term “simple countrywoman” in other words: despite her hard destiny, she accepted it without any word of complaint or some “babbling”. She prayed for all people every evening, not only for family members.

Jacobsen: What was the era of police inspection like for your mother’s father? He wouldn’t have had the kinds of technology and techniques available now. Ingenuity may have been an asset.

Perna: Maybe. I know very little about his “criminal cases”. In so far as I know, he would have had to be promoted into one of the highest positions of the police as a young man yet. But … returning home from the service everyday, there were three pubs on the way. He successfully missed them all, but not always the last one … the only contraindication of his promotion, as it was used to say.

Jacobsen: How did you cope with the emotional sense of aloneness?

Perna: Many of the very sensitive people can feel themselves as being emotionally alone. I am not an exception. However, if these are your basic feelings that are not understood or accepted, even partially at least, then your heart becomes alone. The resulting deep sadness cannot be explained out of the heart´s tears.

Jacobsen: What denomination of Christianity, if any, for both parents?

Perna: If any, then a catholic one I would say.

Jacobsen: Does this echo into any views for you, today?

Perna: Of course. In no resignation on a deep sense of things that could seem to be absurd at the first look.

Jacobsen: What is the 4D-differential structure?

Perna: From the calculus we know, how to differentiate functions up to 3D and only locally in 4D. The 4D-differential structure is a way of how to differentiate symmetry related functions in 4D globally.

Jacobsen: How is this applied to commercial software?

Perna: Hard to answer shortly – Roughly speaking, commercial software, mostly based on the finite element modelling method (FEM), should make a job of numerical simulations of some problems of physical reality prevailing. The goal is to understand the problems in more detail. The shortcoming is that you can never know what is an underlying mathematical model (if it exists) of the simulated problem. Using 4D, you can design a mathematical model of the problem at first and solve it subsequently, or solve existing one. Then you design a mathematical model of the FEM-simulation-process itself and by comparing the real and FEM-mathematical models, you can optimize parameters of how the FEM-simulations can be most effectively employed (calibrated). It saves a lot of computational hours and helps to avoid a non-existent phenomena emergence at FEM-simulation-results.

Jacobsen: What is, in short, the common sense of quantum theory and relativity?

Perna: Considering a moving particle, I would say that relativity is more affine to its mass-behavior, while quantum theory to its charge configurations. Charge conjugate solutions of problems are basically connected with the wave associated with a particle, so, without a charge, there were no wave-particle complementarity, or vice versa respectively. Thus, a wave-particle complementarity implies a fundamental quantum-relativistic feature of the physical problems on the elementary level. Common sense itself is mediated via the Golden mean, now slowly emerging in quantum theory. What is an elementary level, however?

Jacobsen: What is the fundamental definition of philosophy to you?

Perna: Oh, Jesus! So, I think that philosophy is an instrument of how to find a sense of existence and being within a finiteness of limitations and explains the difference between both.

Jacobsen: How did maths win over your heart (sorry, philosophy)?

Perna: I can only repeat one point of view, according to which maths is an applied philosophy. When you practice a philosophy, then after a little time, maths starts to emerge itself and perhaps together with vibrations of poetry within your concepts, if meaningfully grasped.

Jacobsen: How are I.Q. tests trickily addictive for you? How did you cut the habit – so to speak – if, indeed, you did?

Perna: Like any “winning game” which need not to be naturally rooted, but is requiring an engagement of a promising thinking process. You must not become a “gambler”, retrying to solve the problems that are unsolvable for you or that are unsolvable at all, being not correctly posted. Fortunately, due to a complete lack of time, I have almost stopped IQ-testing.

Jacobsen: Why didn’t the administered test in the design office state the I.Q. to you? It seems like a common thing, and unfortunate. Any idea as to the rationale behind it?

Perna: I have taken 2 administered IQ tests, 160 and 172 in SD15. However, independently of their origin, I like deep symbolical problems as a basis for any IQ testing; and I don´t like working memory tests.

Jacobsen: What if loners confuse their self-isolation or socially imposed isolation as a mark of genius for themselves when, in fact, they happen to be ordinary or morons with a tendency to self-isolate/with poor social skills?

Perna: If poor social skills, then an isolation regarded by them as a mark of genius brings only more suffering for themselves. I regret to say that many outsiders are suspected to have poor social skills, including people without a home. That is unacceptable either for IQ 90, or 150+, e.g., since it carries a leading feature of ignorance.

Jacobsen: It was a short answer. However, I’ll have to parse it into some more depth, even singular statements or opinions on each. Why/how was Socrates a genius?

Perna: I guess that Socrates had revealed moral patterns that inspired Plato to consider the deep role of archetypes as “generators” of a common sense of things.

Jacobsen: Why/how was Shakespeare a genius?

Perna: Hamlet.

Jacobsen: Why/how was Newton a genius?

Perna: Calculus.

Jacobsen: Why/how was Euler a genius?

Perna: As one of the personifications of great natural science.

Jacobsen: Why/how was Poe a genius?

Perna: Deep sensitiveness together with great analytical skills and ideas covered ingeniously by popular forms.

Jacobsen: Why/how was Mácha a genius?

Perna: He wrote the poem “Máj” (May) that is a very basis of romanticism in poetry itself. More strong than Byron´s works.

Jacobsen: Why/how was Einstein a genius?

Perna: Relativity.

Jacobsen: Is the attribute of new ideas with beauty a means by which to describe the natural or organic aesthetics of parsimony seen in some novel concepts?

Perna: One of the most fundamental properties of beauty is symmetry of revealed forms of Nature. If the symmetry is not an illusion, then it is coupled together with the least action principle at manifesting a dance of phenomena. A tendency to reduce a possible meaning of things to be graspable by rational languages can be a very dangerous parsimony substituting this least action in some novel approaches to the understanding of Nature.

Jacobsen: How do so many with profound intelligence become rock solid ordinary rather than other than this? Is it a mastery of the norms of an environment becoming ossified?

Perna: Yes, completely.

Jacobsen: How do numerical and logical capacities of computers far outstrip human capabilities?

Perna: What should I say? – The comparison itself is nonsensical; otherwise, the answer could be primitive: like a Ferrari is faster than Bolt. Nevertheless, some guys got mad and declared that they have found out an artificial consciousness 🙂 :).

Jacobsen: What is the explanatory gap between the human Central Nervous System and digital computational systems in the realm of the symbolic?

Perna: None in general. There could be some metaphysical approaches to this problem yet, but it is a pure waste of time. The consciousness condition is an existence of neurons. So, if you want to consider the explanatory gap, then you should be able to construct a language learnable and usable by conscious zombies.

Jacobsen: What is the substance vis-à-vis the soul of a human being, i.e., the relation of this substance to God and the God to the substantive of a human being, the soul?

Perna: I would have to be God to be able to answer your question. I think that the human soul cannot be self related or self-dual, respectively, because there arises the question, within which such self-duality could be able to exist to be recognized. Paradoxically speaking then, the fact that God is the essence of our souls (in “vis-à-vis” way, if you want) as parts of Him, is or can be experienced only via the belief in God.

Jacobsen: As God gives identity to me, as a substantive impression of the soul upon me for me – the persona, person, or identity, “Scott Douglas Jacobsen” – to exist in the first place, is this eternal manifestation something in which the temporal manifests as my identity in my lifetime while embedded in this fundament of the eternal? If so, what is cut between the eternal and ‘aeternal’ – so to speak, or the atemporal and the temporal? Where does this truncation or demarcation take place?

Perna: The individual identity given by God is a miracle. I only feel that God, being completely conscious of your consciousness, provides you with your individual identity over all times. Otherwise, you can become one Smith of all Smiths due to the above-mentioned self-duality. On the other hand, a temporarily unique measure in which you personally can be conscious of your consciousness can be called as “Scott Douglas Jacobsen”.

Jacobsen: Do symbolic parables delimit consciousness and permit a mental landscape beyond the numeric and the logical for a “chance to touch God”?

Perna: Yes, the richer the above-mentioned measure, the greatest chance to be conscious of a touch of God. Only symbolic parables out of any rational languages can be generated by this measure; Rationality is limited by itself.

Jacobsen: Does non-denominational, non-religious theism make the most sense of you – with “humility and deepness of heart”?

Perna: Yes. At the same time, we should be aware that Christ does not belong to any denomination or religion. If owned by any such system, then he cannot be the Son of God and the “owning system” suffers from superiority.

Jacobsen: Does scientific research play a role in the theism/deism or the God-substance-soul discourse? If so, how so?

Perna: Of course. Take “only” Gödel´s incompleteness theorems. You namely don´t know, which relevant truth is represented by those true statements (that can be neither proved nor disproved within the considered system). Therefore, you should try to work more with the symbolical solutions of natural problems (like with the wave function in the quantum theory up to its physical measurement) in order to get a perspective, from which they can be perceived as being possibly logically rooted. And, with symbols, you are close to what is discussed above.

Jacobsen: What are the prime virtues in virtue ethics for you? Is this in connection with the role of values leading to non-religious theism for you?

Perna: Yes.

Jacobsen: As Nature continues to become revealed more in the course of time and mental effort, and experiment, what can be said about it?

Perna: If you can really preserve such a great process, you reveal new and more horizons and perspectives. More and more beauty will be revealed to you, until possible manipulations and conscious lies.

Jacobsen: Theologians talk of deism, theism, duotheism, henotheism, monotheism, pantheism, pandeism, panendeism, panentheism, holopanendeism, holopanentheism, et cetera. Any thoughts on each of these while God is on the menu of the conversation, good sir?

Perna: None.

Jacobsen: What is free will or freedom of the will here?

Perna: I think that free will is a unique property of harmonic connections to others. No freedom for the will, where harmony destroyed, cheated or betrayed.

Jacobsen: How should considerations about human possibilities and natural limitations set bounds on discussion about the structure and function of human societies?

Perna: I partially answered this question. But, who will calibrate these considerations such that they could lead to the convergence of (still) human societies to configuration of harmonic relations between its members? If, for example, a constant economic growth does, then you miss constants of nature, obtaining either global collapse in its possibly many forms, or animal society.

Jacobsen: Can you expand on Entities-Identity searching, please?

Perna: Search for beauty!

Jacobsen: What kind of Idealism?

Perna: That any idea cannot be connected with any matter pattern only then, when it is connected with symbols as the objects of existence and with objects as the symbols of being. In any opposite case, the idea collapses into some kind of existence/being-malformations.

Jacobsen: Is this sense of a non-afterlife afterlife an identification of eternal transformation as a law of Nature? What does this mean for our identities?

Perna: Your identity is not connected with the death of your material body. You will “only” obtain a further opportunity to make your temporarily unique measure of being conscious of your consciousness richer. I believe that this is the law of Nature.

Footnotes

[1] Member, World Genius Directory; Member, United Giga Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 8, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 8). Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. June. 2022. <https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tomáš Perna on German Nazism, God, Virtue, Freedom of the Will, and Scientific Discourse: Member, World Genius Directory (2)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-01

The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Disabilities, and Elitism (2)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,667

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Leann (Pitman) Manuel’s bio states: “Leann was as good as born on a horse, and has been fortunate to work with them daily since her very early twenties. From Pony Club and 4H as a child, through national level competition and several World’s Show qualifications with her Quarter Horse as a teen, to some Dressage tests, a few Cowboy Challenge clinics, and the daily operations at Riding 4 Life today, Leann’s horsemanship practice continues to seek out anything and everything she may be able to learn or experience with horses. Leann is passionate about helping others realize the value of having horses in their lives – no matter the breed or creed – and she hopes to continue to grow and nurture the horsemanship community in her region well into the future.” She discusses: prospective employee interviews; intuitive sense; make a greenhorn not a greenhorn; developmental disabilities outside of the autism spectrum; narrative of trauma; elitism; and industry’s interactions with outsiders and with one another.

Keywords: developmental disabilities, elitism, employees, intuition, Leann Manuel, Riding 4 Life, wisdom.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Disabilities, and Elitism (2)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you’re doing prospective employee interviews, how do you evaluate individuals knowing the difficulty of the job?

Leann (Pitman) Manuel[1],[2]: So, I have yet to hire somebody who I am not already familiar with. They have already been a client. I have been their foundation of horsemanship from the get-go. Or I’ve seen them with their horse or other horses and, at a distance, been able to see their horsemanship.

Jacobsen: Is it an intuitive sense when observing them over a long period of time?

Manuel: Some would say, “It is intuitive.” It is not as if I have this conscious thinking template. Every time, my eyes are on a horse. I’m with a student training. It is this mindful awareness. I don’t have to put words or language to understand everything. There are ways of knowing and being, and skills that I have; I don’t necessarily have them written down. I’m trying to write part of my curriculum down because there are opportunities to get some course credit for some of the teens.

Of course, I have to play nice with the school system and demonstrate on paper. It is not my favourite thing to do. I would much rather drag someone out to the riding arena and the round pen, and let’s do this thing. You are going to get better by doing. I can help you do that. So, yes, how do I really know? I don’t know if I have adequate words for that. I can give people words if they really need them. Like any other funder, if I need to prove outcomes, show me the funder requirements, I’ll get it done.

I don’t know if you are familiar with any of Malcolm Gladwell’s work. His book Blink offers something I appreciate. I appreciate many of his books. He talks about the thin, slicing look at something. Folks who become masters or professionals at what they do begin to trust their whole selves. That’s a big part of what I have done over the years. It is a skill and a competence, and teaching people to trust themselves. I am actively pursuing this here.

Jacobsen: It’s difficult translating wisdom and intuition based on experience to a formal curriculum. I could imagine the difficulty in that.

Manuel: Oh, man! Sometimes, staring at the screen, “How do I describe this in three well-written paragraphs?”

Jacobsen: What if someone doesn’t have a lot of experience, though they want to become a part of riding for life? How do you make a greenhorn not a greenhorn?

Manuel: That’s the bulk of what we do. I shouldn’t say everybody. But client-wise, the vast majority of our clients haven’t really ridden a horse before, maybe a pony ride. I almost do this on purpose. When I originally started in 2004, when I started Riding 4 Life formally, I made a point of not re-recruiting the same horse people. Those were not my clients. If you had already been a client at several other places, the ne hottest thing, I don’t want you.

I want beginners, pretty please, because there is a lot of unlearning that has to happen. A lot of habits, preconceived ideas, “cognitive bias” would be one of the academic terms for it. I have got to do battle with a lot of that first. I think I have it easy as far as clients because most of the clients are 8,9, or 10, years old. They are open, curious, in school, skilled in growth and learning. It is their number one job in life.

So, it is super easy to get them started. Our curriculum, some of the core skills, I put under the heading, “Leadership.” Four or five parts of that are abundantly important. One is lead by example. Courage is another one. Those are two things to go to in the curriculum. Never expect students to do things you are not willing to do; you can’t teach something you can’t do. We do it. I learn really well by seeing it, hearing it, and being in the environment, and letting it soak it, without having to focus on having to take the write notes, study, spit it out on the test.

I’ve been there, done that. Let’s get them near a horse, on a horse. One of the other important things, I think, which works well here, anyway. We have the curriculum written down in written form with skills and expectations. Our staff know what the skills look like and what they can get you with a horse. But we are not going to make you read a text about it. We are not going to make you memorize it. We might not even mention that vocabulary.

Somehow, we will get you going through the motions of the skills. We might tell you later what we did. I have a newcomer to our staff who is a parent of a client. They have experience. They own a couple of horses. She is starting to teach beginner teachers with us. She has been certified as a beginner instructor elsewhere. She’s like, “Leann, where is the book? What is the vocabulary? I need to teach them the right word for things.” I’m like, “No, you don’t.” Some of our clients are non-verbal.

I don’t care what it is called. I want them to learn it firs.t The way we encode, the way memory works, we memorize or learn things by hanging them on other experiences. It is useless to tell them what a billet is. “What is the point pocket on your saddle?” Is this useful to their horsemanship journey at this point? Well, no, honestly, the only time “point pocket” has been useful has been saddle fitting at a high-end competition with my fancy horse deciding if this saddle might be costing me a half-pointing on one point on my dressage test at medium level or in a Pony Club test.

Otherwise, I could go my life not knowing what the point pocket was, so we try to keep it down to earth that way. Also, remove those barriers of overwhelm, so many beginners hit them.

Jacobsen: What other developmental disabilities outside of the autism spectrum come forward for some of the clientele?

Manuel: Oh, gosh, a whole range, another thing, I should mention. Autism is such a high percentage of my clients because there is funding. As a social worker, in my past life, I am accustomed to dealing with government legislation, systems, and being able to do the language bit. So, I’ve been a service provider with the Ministry of Family and Children for a number of years. That’s the most available funding pocket, which is autism funding. We get a lot of requests.

We struggle to get those kids’ services paid for, sometimes. But I’d say, “If it weren’t for funding, the number one thing is mental health.” Kids and teens with, usually, anxiety disorders, depression, etc. There are all kinds of labels that come with this. Through my eyes, they come through trauma. They’re all trauma related. Trauma growing up in a family that isn’t the idyllic family, never need a therapist. There are so many people going through so many traumas in our culture.

Our society isn’t good at recognizing them and healing them. Trauma is common. We could normalize it in a lot of cases. We don’t, by and large. We fail at that. That’s one of the things that I’ve been successful at here. “Oh, you have trauma. Welcome to the club! [Laughing] Here’s how we incorporate that.”

Jacobsen: Do you incorporate your narrative of trauma when talking to clientele or staff to normalize the conversation?

Manuel: When it comes up, yes, definitely, I have a staffer who I am thinking of in this moment. They are having overwhelming anxiety attacks. It tends to happen as a new client is showing up. They have to meet the client and been the superhero instructor. All these expectations and intrusive thoughts come, ‘I am going to suck. I am like, “Yeah, you might. But that’s okay. You are just starting and learning. I am here for you. If you suck and somebody complains, then I will have a conversation with that parent. I will remind them what it is like.”

I want to normalize it and bring it back down to Earth. One of my criticisms for my own industry and my own colleagues in the horse industry. There is a certain measure of elitism running rampant.

Jacobsen: Is it worse in different sectors?

Manuel: No.

Jacobsen: It is a thread throughout everything?

Manuel: Yes. It doesn’t matter if you are on the $50,000 dressage horse. You’re hoping to compete in Kentucky. Or you’re on the shining spark show horse… it doesn’t matter at that level. You run into elitism in every discipline everywhere.

Jacobsen: How does this change the industry’s interactions with outsiders and with one another?

Manuel: I have a lot of thoughts about why that is. It would an entirely different interview on colonialism and all that jazz. It is everywhere. I’ve worked in a lot of different disciplines, worked with a lot of different breeds of horses, been to a lot of different horse shows. After a while, they all start to look the same. So, here I am, in my muck boots, with very few brand name pieces of clothing anymore, which you could find at a tack store, most of mine come from Value Village because it does the same job at this level.

Once upon a time, when I was qualifying for the World’s, it did matter that I had the particular piece of equipment for that horse doing that job. For the vast majority of people who want to compete in the industry, if it is, basically, safe, adequate, and not hurting anybody, I don’t want to hear about it. There are more important things to worry about.

Footnotes

[1] Instructor & Founder, Riding 4 Life Equine Enterprises.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2)[Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.E (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 7: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Wisdom, Intuition, Mental Illness, and Developmental Disabilities (2)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-06-01

Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,089

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Brandon Feick is a Member of the Glia Society. He discusses: the purpose of intelligence tests; the God concept; an afterlife; genius; science; ethical philosophy; social philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; philosophical system; meaning; a genius from a profoundly intelligent person; the mystery and transience of life; and love.

Keywords: Brandon Feick, genius, intelligence, I.Q., Glia Society, life, love, metaphysics.

Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?

Brandon Feick[1],[2]*: I believe the purpose is to test for certain capabilities within a person. IQ tests can be used to identify people with a specific type of problem-solving capabilities.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?

Feick: I believe in the light of Good. Not all people know of a God, and what God is varies in different parts of the world. I believe that God is Good in that God = Good. First and foremost, I believe in Good in the world. Good has brought us this far, and so I believe we must continue to have faith in Good.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, why, and what form? If not, why not?

Feick: Unfortunately, I do not believe in an afterlife. I believe my self and my brain would be no longer and that I would no longer have conscious thought. Perhaps in ways that I am entangled with the world I may continue onward at some level, but I do not think too hard beyond that.

Jacobsen: Is profound intelligence necessary for genius?

Feick: I do not think profound intelligence is required to do something that can be described as genius, whether it be/is an achievement in a short series of moments in time or the cumulation of a longer series of moments. However, in cases where someone is described as a genius in fields like music, literature, science, etc., I think that profound intelligence is necessary.

Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?

Feick: Science is an integral part of humans being an intelligent species.

Science is a result of the evolution of human intelligence.

Without science, we wouldn’t have many of the things we do that help to make us comfortable living in the world.

I cannot see a way to stop technological advance. For this reason, science must play a significant role in anyone’s worldview…

Unless, they do not dwell on such things as human life…

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Feick: The most important thing is that people consider what is right and what is wrong, what is good and what is bad. Let the question resonate, and over time, it becomes more natural to consider this question in our actions. Sometimes, people do what would be considered a good thing, and what results from it would be considered bad, and vice versa. People can easily do things that are bad or wrong without realizing it initially. It is hard to predict the long-term outcome of events. The best we can do to achieve the most good is to ask ourselves the question of what is good, what is bad, what is right, and what is wrong.

Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Feick: Smile often.

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Feick: I live in bubbles. If you are in politics, it makes sense to achieve your goals. Philosophically, achieve your goals. It will build a strength which will aid you alongside others who don’t play fair.

Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes some sense to you, even the most workable sense to you?

Feick: I believe that all is one, and by this I am referring to evolution. If you keep going back through time far enough, it would suggest all of life began at a single point, even if there were multiple occurrences of that point. It suggests we are all interconnected, but I guess in that same thought we’d be just as connected to a tree as a person.

Metaphysics… the first principle of things, time, space, etc.

Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Feick: I do not think I can answer this question without consideration of my personal wants, and then I find comes in the idea of ideology.

I am not studied on such matters. If I felt inspired to read about such systems, I would probably end up developing my own.

Devote oneself to nature of one’s being, to contribute to evolution as nature through time reveals itself through intelligent beings.

Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?

Feick: I am internally driven, although in a different day and time, such as if I lived in a world where there was no external motivation, then perhaps I would not be as internally motivated.

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?

Feick: Sometimes, nothing at all. Sometimes, experience. Sometimes, …

Then begin writing.

I think a profoundly intelligent person has more limitations.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the mystery and transience of life?

Feick: Life is only as mysterious as we can imagine it being.

Transience of life I will have to Google…. Lasting for a short time

It is just the self that is transient. I imagine that in nature, the self produces another self because it must… a being produces another being because it must. I imagine that it is inherently tied to the process of evolution. I don’t mind the transience of life… it’s the pain I don’t like. A feeling of ecstasy won’t last forever, but some pains last a lifetime, so it’s a bit lopsided in my opinion, and then there’s the pain of dying. Nobody wants that. Nobody wants the pain of living.

I get excited about the mystery of life. I find it interesting that in a way, life is one continuous being throughout all of evolution. Every human that ever walked the earth, born, lived, reproduced repeat, and I imagine this process goes all the way back to beginning of evolution. I’ll never understand the greatest mysteries of life and the universe, and that’s ok, because it might even be beyond human comprehension, and if somehow humans did unravel the mystery… one would still then have to ask, would that result in good or bad in the world?

Jacobsen: What is love to you?

Feick: Definition: Intense feeling of deep affection. Connected to one’s being, sense of purpose.

It becomes a food, a source of energy, a thrivingness.

Besides the feeling of what is love, I think it incorporates something more. You strongly desire for the wellbeing of what you love. We want the best for those we love.

Footnotes

[1] Member, Glia Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Brandon Feick on Intelligence and Philosophy: Member, Glia Society (1)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/feick-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-01

Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 4,640

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Kate Jones is a “bemused and kindly traveler of this world” with a Type A personality, high energy, and a philosophical bent. She was born at the dawn of WWII in Budapest Hungary. She is member of the International Society for Philosophical Enquiry and American Mensa, and a Lifetime member of the Imperial Society of Teachers of Dancing and a Member of the Libertarian Party. She discusses: growing up; a sense of an extended self; the family background; the experience with peers and schoolmates; some professional certifications; the purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence discovered; the extreme reactions to and treatment of geniuses; the greatest geniuses in history; a genius from a profoundly intelligent person; profound intelligence necessary for genius; work experiences and jobs; particular job path; the gifted and geniuses; God; science; the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations); the range of the scores; ethical philosophy; social philosophy; economic philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; philosophical system; meaning in life; meaning externally derived, or internally generated; an afterlife; the mystery and transience of life; and love.

Keywords: Budapest, Germany, Hungarian, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry, Kate Jones, Mensa, Russians, World War II.

Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?

Kate Jones[1],[2]*: My parents were Hungarian and didn’t tell children much. I heard how my mother’s sister was a beautiful and famous ballerina in Hungary and Germany, and my father, divorced at the time and a classical pianist, was interested in her until my mother, 22 years younger than my father, somehow managed to divert his attention to where he ended up marrying her. They used to kid about how she stole her sister’s suitor. My mother was only five years older than my father’s daughter from his first marriage. The only person severely disapproving of his marrying again was his sister, a bit of a religious hardnose who didn’t approve of the divorce. Many years later, when the ex-wife died, my parents got married again, so I was born while they were “in sin”. Since I was born an atheist, none of that bothered me at all.

When I was five years old, World War II happened and we had to flee as the Russians came into Hungary, getting out on the last train to Germany before they closed the borders. In Germany we stayed with my mother’s sister (the ballerina/dance teacher), and no stories were told in my hearing. For a few years our stories were about the war and bunkers and no food except cabbage, and hiding out in farm house attics and waiting for the Americans to win the war. The reason we had to flee was not that we were targets for the Nazis but because my father, in WWI, had been a prisoner-of-war in Russia, and he managed to escape through Siberia and get back to Hungary. He figured the Russians would have his number and if they captured him, that would be the end of him, So he got us into the “American sector” of Germany and offered his services to the Americans as an interpreter, since he spoke 7 languages and there were many foreigners piling in from every side.

One of his stories was how, in WWI, he and his troop were in one small airplane and encountered a Russian group, and someone asked, “Do you have any tennis balls?” And they did, so the two officially enemy groups got out of their planes and got a tennis game going out on the field, then parted cordially and went back to their alleged duties. That was my father’s story. His other story was how he escaped from Russia, because his captors found out that he was a pianist and invited him to come and play in their salons. On a couple of such “concerts”, he met Rachmaninoff, who also played. One evening my father played Beethoven and Rachmaninoff performed his own works. The next concert they switched, with my father playing Rachmaninoff’s music.

It was playing at these concerts that gave the alleged prisoner the chance to make his escape. My father was born in 1894. He died in Connecticut in 1968. We ended up in the US because the Germans were trying to get foreigners out, and although they offered my father emigration to Australia, he held out for a chance to emigrate to America. His original profession was as a mechanical engineer, and they found him a job in Connecticut in a small engineering firm owned by a Hungarian. We arrived in America on Christmas Day 1951. I was 12 years old.

Jacobsen: Have these stories helped provide a sense of an extended self or a sense of the family legacy?

Jones: No, because they were not MY stories. In Budapest where we lived until we had to flee, my parents were what you’d call upper middle class, with a live-in servant to do the housework and other tasks, like cutting the throat of a live goose to get it ready for cooking (I got to watch). I was not allowed to play with her, though I liked her, because she was a lower-class person. I felt betrayed and deprived, not quite understanding that I was supposed to be upper class and treat others from that vantage point. Actually, I think my mother was just jealous that I liked this other person and wanted to be with her, even though my mother ignored me most of the time.

The only family legacy I learned of was that my father’s father was a famous Latin teacher, one of whose students was a famous Hungarian author and my grandfather’s picture is in a museum as the founder of that schooling system. He died the month I was born. None of these stories made any difference in how I regarded myself. I was never given to feel that I was somehow important or valuable; there was little affection shown to children, only scolding. If family culture had any effect, it was to drive down my self-confidence and sense of self. My mother evidently felt that her job was to come up with all kinds of cruel punishments for me for the slightest transgression.

One of my stories from the Budapest years is the time my half-sister visited us with her suitor, and they taught me how to tell fortunes by reading palms. I seemed to have a talent for that and it was a skill I professed for years, informally and for entertainment. Because of how our lives were torn up by being war refugees, not much family “legacy” prevailed. Refugees who survived is the main story.

Jacobsen: What was the family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Jones: Hmm. I think I covered most of that above: Budapest, Hungary; upper middle class; Hungarian and German; Roman Catholic. My father did not profess or show any religious tendencies. My mother tried to make me say prayers when going to bed from about the age of three, telling me my guardian angel was sad when I was bad or didn’t want to say the prayers, but I never believed a word of it, anymore than I believed when she tried to tell me about the Easter Bunny. I just didn’t have the vocabulary with which to argue back at that young age. My father never spoke of such things and left it to my mother. She tried to tell me about churches and God, and I never believed any of it, either, though I had to obey when she made me say prayers, which were just meaningless noise to a young, reality-focused mind. My parents took me to Sunday mass, which always made me feel dizzy. They forced me through the ritual of Confession and Communion, all meaningless activities that were part of life I had to go along with.

Leading up to that, at age 6, I was diagnosed with tuberculosis and had to spend 7 months in a children’s sanatorium in Garmisch, Germany, where the fresh mountain air cured me completely. The schooling I missed was made up for when I returned home and had a private teacher for about two weeks, who caught me up in that time with almost a year’s regular schooling. I seemed to learn everything instantly.

Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and an adolescent?

Jones: Because of the war years, I did not have regular schooling. After the Americans won, they still occupied school buildings, which left my first year of school to be held in a tavern, with the huge tables and chairs, and they brought in some blackboards. It was in that first year that I was sent to the sanatorium, so after I returned, I was in second grade in a school to which I had a long walk by myself. Relations with my “peers” were not pleasant, as I was picked on by the other kids for not speaking German as well as they did (I was still learning), and I was a little younger, so got slapped around a lot. The only thing that helped was that I was always the best student in the class.

My parents would not allow me to be friends with anyone, so I was pretty much of a loner. Also by now I had had German measles which left me partially blind and I had to wear glasses, which in those days were always a target to be made fun of. I went to a different school every year, so never was a “joiner”, always the outsider, and no continuity of classmates from year to year. Then when I was 10, my mother wanted another child, and when he was born, I was sent to a boarding school run by Franciscan nuns at a nunnery on an island in the river Rhine. In it. It was close to where my aunt had her ballet school, so she must have suggested it. She visited me once a year and ignored me the rest of the time, though she was supposed to see me more often, as I found out later. To attend that school I had to learn French (instead of the Latin that was used in the school I had attended before). German schools followed one of two systems: Gymnasium and Lyceum. Gymnasium had nothing to do with gym. It was a classical Latin-based system, whereas Lyseum was more a liberal system derived from the French. My aunt sent me to a local private tutor, who, in about three weeks, brought me up to date on the French that the other students had done for a year and a half. My aunt didn’t want to believe it but tested me herself and found that I had, indeed, learned all the vocabulary and grammar. I think I had a good teacher, not giving myself credit for being smart or quick to learn. I accepted that that was just way I was.

My grades were always the highest, which made me somewhat of a teacher’s pet. I was not aware of the other kids being jealous here (at the convent school). I was very good athletically, and that did get some respect. Being away from home and with the same group of kids, there were a couple of friends who were steady buddies.

By now it was expected that I would always get the highest grades. I never paid attention to what others thought of me or whether they liked me, in that environment. After a while they even stopped making fun of my clothes, which were made from discarded stage costumes at my aunt’s school. Those clothes had made me very self-conscious and embarrassed. I should include here that the upscale life of Budapest vanished when we fled, and for many years we were very poor.

Nunnery—yes, deep daily indoctrination, mass every morning, none of which took, though I had to go along with it in a very tightly disciplined setting. We all had some favorite nun among our teachers, also one who was much disliked. I wrote an unflattering poem about her, and when the nuns found out, I was afraid of being expelled. That was the time my father accepted a job in America, and so I was taken home and escaped retribution for the insulting rhymes.

Jacobsen: What have been some professional certifications, qualifications, and trainings earned by you?

Jones: Diploma from the Imperial Society of Teachers of Dancing (England) for passing their professional teacher exam with a Highly Commended grade in both divisions, Latin and Modern Ballroom. Won Rising Star trophy with a professional partner in Modern Ballroom competition in 1973. Won over 30 First Place trophies for amateur partner (my student, later my husband) in dance competitions from 1968-1975. Advanced to Diplomate level over six earlier grades in the International Society for Philosophical Enquiry over 1984-2022 of membership. Over 50 prize ribbons in art shows for my playable art over 40 years. Games Magazine selected my puzzles 52 times for their annual “Games 100” list of the 100 best games from 1981 to 2013, the last year the list was published; obviously, some years more than one game was featured. Member of Mensa since 1982. Oh, and salutatorian at high school graduation, 1957, Bridgeport, CT.

Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?

Jones: At the time I took them, the first one for Mensa, it was at the recommendation of a friend to get in with smart people as possible customers for my new business of puzzles (for the joy of thinking®). I passed the test and joined, but found very few customers, even when I exhibited at their Annual Gatherings. A fellow Mensan invited me to try out for the ISPE, as those were more philosophical and I might enjoy them more, and they were allegedly smarter. I qualified there, too. I have no interest in taking more tests or joining more groups. I am too busy with the business to have time for Mensa social activities. With ISPE I am more involved, since I am their journal’s senior proofreader. The older I get, the stupider I get, and I would not want to have to drop out for flunking a retest.

Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?

Jones: Never. I was just good at taking tests. And my father had instilled something in me about that when he took me to the first school (the tavern) on my first day and said, “Now you must always be the best student.” That’s all he said. I’m not aware of trying for that, only of working at it diligently and always doing my homework.

Jones: There is a bug in the human software that is more active in rejecting anything that is too different from themselves, whether in talent, ability, good looks, ideas, beliefs, interactions with others, even styles of clothes and cultural habits. Envy takes over on the one hand, and that is not just emotional but can take the form of predatory hostility, like animals. Carried to a higher level, it gets groups to connive and collude, to turn into mobs and then to war-making, ending in genocide. Any pretext will do for creating excuses and justifications for killing fellow humans. Geniuses are not an exception to being targeted if their ideas are too different or may make them too rich. The schemers and conquerors grab power, since “might makes right”. Might implies physical control and violence. The top dog may be very smart for ruling strategy, while blocking off any policy of universal peace and non-aggression. So your geniuses who don’t have power don’t want to be too visible, lest they become targets.

Jacobsen: Who seems like the greatest geniuses in history to you?

Jones: Aristotle, Newton, Galileo, Tesla, Pythagoras, Kepler, Da Vinci, Archimedes, Beethoven, Franz Liszt, Charles Darwin, Shakespeare.

Honorable mentions: Richard Dawkins, Albert Einstein, M. C. Escher, Richard Feynman, Ayn Rand, Voltaire, George Carlin, Carl Sagan.

There are many others that I can’t think of this minute. I’m listing only the good ones. Evil geniuses don’t belong here.

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?

Jones: His or her output, effect in the world, originality, the good luck of intersecting a particular point in a culture where a change was needed with the unique combination of mind and vision to open new vistas. A true genius does not go around claiming to be one. A genius may not even be recognized during his or her lifetime. They do what they are inspired to do by the need or opportunity in their field. Their “spark” grows more.

Jacobsen: Is profound intelligence necessary for genius?

Jones: Not necessarily, just enough to make an original breakthrough in the human software. It’s nature’s crapshoot to find the right combination. A total idiot might not be enough. And then there was Forrest Gump… a fiction, but with billions of people in the world, who knows how many fit that picture.

Jacobsen: What have been some work experiences and jobs held by you?

Jones: Started working 1957, selling scarves in a department store; Girl Friday in advertising dept. of that store; copywriter for ads for that store; graphic artist and ad dept. manager for another store; proofreading and document production for Remington Rand Electric Shaver; librarian; copywriter for shoe store; report editor for engineering company; freelance editor/proofreader; self-employed with own Custom Graphics company with private clients; ballroom dance teacher, 1966-1980; overseas assignment (1975-1978) as secretary for Engineering Manager of Westinghouse expatriates in Shiraz, Iran, plus graphic artist for an Iranian print shop; upon return to US, co-founder (1979) and President of Kadon Enterprises, Inc., to produce wooden puzzles and later lasercut acrylic puzzles. Mostly self-employed since 1969. Continue proofreading for authors and publications. Website manager, producer, and graphic artist for Kadon. Puzzle creator, designer, writer of puzzle manuals for Kadon. Selling puzzles on the road at art shows from Florida to Minnesota, some international.

Jacobsen: Why pursue this particular job path?

Jones: Somewhere around 1998 I realized this was my purpose in life, creating unique objects the world can benefit from and drawing on all the skills I had learned through all those other jobs. Intellectually, emotionally, artistically, even physically, this work is soul-satisfying and fulfilling. And it lets me be different from everyone else in the world with no fuss. I have the freedom to do what I want, when I want, and see that it is beautiful. It’s a strange combination of free-spirited artist and practical business entrepreneur. But nothing I’ve done and want to do would be possible without the help of my devoted husband.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses? Those myths that pervade the cultures of the world. What are those myths? What truths dispel them?

Jones: Ancient cultures lived on myths because the primitive people did not have enough knowledge to understand reality, so fictitious characters and creatures could easily develop in their imaginations. When the brain evolved enough to develop abstract functions, call it an operating system that came with the DNA, imagination was enabled. Ideas acquired almost an independent existence in the cells of the brain. Gifted and genius are just words we now use to describe how some individuals operate differently, on a “higher” or more advanced level, thus capable of functioning in a way the ordinary members of the tribe could not. So the other members either admired them and accepted them as leaders, or resisted and rejected them. Brute strength was still a plus over brains. Smart strength won out over dumb brute force, and thus evolved all the ruling classes and war heroes of ancient times, like Attila the Hun and Genghis Khan and their ilk.

How did humans get infected with the idea of gods as superior specimens? Which early humans thought up the notion of gods who interacted with humans in various ways? Hallucinations? Visiting aliens? Child-like gullibility and uncontrolled fantasies? And the word spread and mythical ideas dug in to the population’s impressionable minds.

One of the brain’s algorithms is to learn what is imparted, right or wrong, as with children who automatically imitate everything. Those who knew more, or seemed to, became the superiors, the respected senior members of the clans. Clans and tribes stuck together, but at some point “otherness” became suspect and rejected. Every group developed a culture of preference and rejection, through evolution of the fit. Every moment had an effect on the mental development of each member, just as all snowflakes are different.

It’s amazing that the world now has over 200 countries, even more than that many languages, endless and different belief systems, and close to 8 billion individual humans. And at any moment, some individuals will have some aspect of themselves wake up and become active in their minds, and from that their actions will interface with the other members and drive their evolution forward, or result in destruction.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?

Jones: I have lots of thoughts, some alluded to above. Once abstract thought became possible, early man realized that some were bigger or stronger, or smarter. That established thinking on scales, in effect Zero to infinity. Anyone or anything more powerful than oneself became revered and feared and personified. It’s fun to imagine, though, that some magical species visited and planted ideas in natives’ heads, just as some more advanced cultures made more primitive cultures think of them as gods. I personally don’t believe in any of those beings nor in magic or miracles. There is only one Reality (ha ha, like only one God), and only real things exist, subject to how they can exist. I pretty much go along with the laws of causality. Human intellects are still in babyhood. I’m OK with that, confident that in time we will learn more and more how and why things are as they are and how they evolve.

Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?

Jones: Totally, if by science is meant the study of Reality without contaminating with unfounded beliefs.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations) for you?

Jones: SAT, 792 out of 800. Mensa, 167. ISPE, 181. I’m not smart enough to know what “standard deviations” means.

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Jones: Objectivism comes close. I want to see humanity cure that bug in the program that allows mutual destruction, but not by self-sacrifice.

Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Jones: Individual rights, equality of rights (not equality of results), freedom of speech (spoken, written, communicated in any form), freedom of assembly and movement, and absolutely no initiation of force or violence by anyone against anyone. The US Constitution comes close but leaves too many openings for government to become tyrannical by elevating some to rule others. The right to property honestly acquired (a libertarian principle) is paramount. Mutual consent in all relationships. Freedom to conduct private enterprise with division of labor, reward for constructive and productive work. Social contract without cheating and exploiting others.

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Jones: See previous paragraph. No rulers, no dictators, no subjugating anyone. All interactions for mutual benefit by mutual agreement. No cause for envy that leads to internecine hatreds, envy, and rationalization for enmities and strife. The golden rule: do no harm; treat others as you want to be treated. Galt’s oath will do. Ethical, social, political—they are not separate things. And they are of interest and value only to human beings.

Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes some sense to you, even the most workable sense to you?

Jones: “Existence exists”. Everything has a cause, or combinations of causes; and everything contributes to effects, in whatever combinations. The Universe–meaning all that exists—operates on what mathematicians call combinatorics. As my slogan states, “From the Singularity to Infinity, how forms combine and grow.”

Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Jones: The book I’m going to write. The key word is “system”, even if its structure and process are not yet fully understood. The Libertarians are close to it in their principles. Humans fighting against humans must absolutely stop. It is a disease.

Jacobsen: What provides meaning in life for you?

Jones: Being aware that I can think, and how I think, and how I choose values and act to attain them, and that I can contemplate answering questions like these. By “meaning”, I assume you mean “value”–the positive end of the magnet.

Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?

Jones: “Meaning” (or “value”) has meaning only for living, thinking beings who recognize in their environment the elements that coincide with their inner and outer needs. Everyone’s values are unique to themselves, a unique combination of factors, though there may be close resemblances with those of others. The search for meaning (value) is internally directed, part of the survival kit. It is fulfilled within the conditions of the external reality, which may well be an infinite combination of factors.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, why, and what form? If not, why not?

Jones: No, not in an individual, conscious form. Physically, you may pass on your DNA, which contains much of the DNA of all your forbears mixed with the branch of your mate. Your intellectual material—every thought you had, every word you spoke, every action you took, has left a mark on the grand scheme of human life and is woven into the future if only in a tiny way. Every value you held and imparted lives on after you, for good or ill. So better make it good. And as for your material remains, they become reabsorbed eventually into the stuff of which the Universe is made, whether as fossils or as food for worms and microbes. What pulled together to be YOU goes back to be recycled in infinite ways forever. If you won’t be conscious of it, enjoy it while you live.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the mystery and transience of life?

Jones: In the hierarchy of existence, it is still evolving as part of the energy in the Universe or of the Universe. There is no divine plan, and no divine planner, and all the stuff that exists will mix and match, push apart and recombine as its energy is able to make it. I’m content to see it as an infinite process. Someday science will have a better definition of what makes existence exist and work. Or do we want to fantasize that the entire Universe is a single atom in the next size up?

Jacobsen: What is love to you?

Jones: To answer that, let me give you an excerpt from one of my poetic ventures, the last few stanzas of a long piece by the title of “A Periodic Table of Polyform Puzzles” – www.gamepuzzles.com/periodic.pdf. It wants to say that love is the function of energy that seeks to nurture and preserve a continuity of existence in all its forms, in all its synergy, from physical reproduction to mental persistence. After showing a variety of geometric examples, it concludes:

This enumeration is not the fullest score.
Geometry leaves lots more of every level to explore.
The essence is to find a starting point and grow,
Expanding ever up and outward by algorithmic flow.

Each chain becomes a Universe, a periodic drive,
Ascending and continuous, its energy alive.
Each step combines from previous stages—evolution’s code,
And at each step we can dissect it back to its first node.

Something there is in human minds that cherishes the new,
That sees the beauty of emerging order, that it’s good and true.
That’s how we build a consciousness, no end in sight,
And how we build the future in growing wisdom’s light.

Every singularity longs for an endless goal,
So mathematics models the Universe’s soul.
Now let us trace one further, wider mega-thought above
And call the Universe’s combinatorial joinings—love.

Footnotes

[1] Lifetime member, Imperial Society of Teachers of Dancing; Member, American Mensa; Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry; Member, Libertarian Party; Member, Future of Freedom Foundation; Member, The Planetary Society; Member, SETI@Home; Member, The Atlas Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1) [Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1) . Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1) ’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Kate Jones on Life, Views, and Work: Diplomate, International Society for Philosophical Enquiry (1) [Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jones-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-06-01

Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,135

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tianxi Yu (余天曦) is a Member of CatholIQ, Chinese Genius Directory, EsoterIQ Society, Nano Society, and World Genius Directory. He discusses: Chen-Ning Yang; Paul Seymour; the “greatest”; more serious thoughts on the fundamental nature of reality; Russell; your own thoughts; school examinations; investment; writing; a Nobel prize a good indicator of a great thinker; focus on the people at the top of the world; want to be recognized; focus on academic activities; thoughts on love; love; tests; identify individuals who can solve complex problems; an anti-intellectual; an intellectual; waste; writing; some projects; some social problems of interest; and development of science and technology.

Keywords: CatholIQ Society, Chinese Genius Directory, EsoterIQ Society, Nano Society, Tianxi Yu, World Genius Directory.

Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We’re back after 16 months. Let’s continue, my friend. Why Chen-Ning Yang?

Tianxi Yu (余天曦)[1],[2]*: Because his contribution to his discipline is greater than anyone else’s, even if he is also a Nobel laureate, Yang’s contribution is greater than the vast majority of Nobel laureates. Among the scientists currently alive, Yang is undoubtedly the most radiant.

Jacobsen: Why Paul Seymour?

Yu: Don’t know much about him, hahaha, I read his proof of the strong perfect graph conjecture, it is very interesting.

Jacobsen: Why do you want the world to think you’re the “greatest”?

Yu: I don’t need to be recognized by everyone, I just want to be recognized by the people at the top of the world. Getting recognition is kind of socially satisfying, and the work I’m doing now is definitely something I want to be recognized for.

Jacobsen: What are your more serious thoughts on the fundamental nature of reality? What is reality?

Yu: I would have given an answer to this question 16 months ago, but I can’t give it now.

Jacobsen: What are your thoughts on Russell?

Yu: It is difficult to describe in a few words… When I saw this question, my brain was flooded with very complicated and huge emotions… I first learned about Russell near the end of elementary school, and it struck me as I read it, because I felt that Russell’s thoughts were similar to many of mine… “An austere soul burns in the agony of loneliness”, except that I have a different perception of love than he does, and I have little desire for it, and even rather resent it.

Jacobsen: What makes your own thoughts dismiss those, since established, as meaningless?

Yu: It is a wrong idea that everything that has been established is useful. Useless use is also a use. Although on a social level, there are high and low values, but creating beauty and pleasing ourselves has no value.

Jacobsen: Do you mean the school examinations as the “tests” making you feel disgusted?

Yu: Yes, I hate tests, I think they are obsolete. Put in the past, the test is undoubtedly useful, because human social development is just starting, and needs a lot of fast talent to meet the needs of society. But today’s social development is very slow, and can even be described as stagnant, it is time to discover people who can solve complex problems, which is often referred to as “high IQ” talent in the community. I am more of an anti-intellectual, but I have to say that the IQ of the high ability to solve complex problems is stronger, of course, not gaining expertise, still a waste.

Jacobsen: What kinds of investment?

Yu: Cryptos, but now no more investment, mainly in writing papers and doing projects.

Jacobsen: What are some papers that you’re writing to “earn bonus”?

Yu: Not to go to “earn bonus”, now write papers more inclined to interest. Because I found that some of my knowledge and insights can actually solve some social problems and contribute to the development of science and technology in a small way.

Jacobsen: Is a Nobel prize a good indicator of a great thinker to you?

Yu: From a historical perspective, these Nobel Prize winners have greatly advanced the world and have all made great contributions to the world. And creating these results also requires very deep thinking, and from this perspective, I think it is.

Jacobsen: Why focus on the people at the top of the world compared to others when hoping for proper recognition in the world?

Yu: Only people at the top of the world can understand each other.

Jacobsen: What is the work you’re doing now? That which you “want to be recognized for.”

Yu: Hard to describe, although I want to say “technology”, but not sure.I don’t know if my works really have meaning or what I will do in the future.

Jacobsen: Why the change in the ability to answer some questions compared to 16 months ago?

Yu: 16 months ago I was focused on making money, so I only wanted to think about money-related things. But now money is not as useful as before, so I focus on academic activities.

Jacobsen: What are your different thoughts on love now?

Yu: I now believe that love is useless. Thinking this has to do with the country I live in. Love should be something that brings pleasure and draws pleasure from the other person. But nowadays, there are high mortgage payments (the average person struggles for about 30 years to afford a house), huge education costs (school district, tuition fees), and lack of medical assistance. Not to mention that 715 (9:00 to work, 25:00 to leave work, lasting seven days) is now popular, and society is still in the process of massive layoffs and pay cuts. With so many burdens there is still time to fall in love?

Jacobsen: Why do you “rather resent” love in a sense?

Yu: Women weak my legs.

Jacobsen: What should replace tests now?

Yu: Not yet, existing resources are not sufficient to support a more complex testing approach.

Jacobsen: With social development as very slow now, even stagnant, what can help identify individuals who can solve complex problems in this societal environment?

Yu: Large area for universal high range testing? lol

Jacobsen: Why consider yourself “more of an anti-intellectual”?

Yu: I don’t like to over-emphasize the importance of intelligence, of course it’s more important, but there’s no need to deify it. I also rather resent people who flaunt their IQ.

Jacobsen: In this context, following from the previous question, what makes someone an intellectual?

Yu: Born in an intellectual family has been a big part of success, if not, only by their own desire for knowledge.

Jacobsen: How do the talented, typically, waste their talents, not use them fully?

Yu: Laziness. Although I know that some people may feel that, for example, the family of origin, or school bullying and other reasons, but it all boils down to laziness.

Jacobsen: What are some things you’re writing now?

Yu: “Infectious disease risk calculation and storage system based on 3-tier network system” -Tianxi Yu, first author

Jacobsen: What are some projects you’re doing now?

Yu: “Research on rapid risk assessment, precise early warning and prevention and control countermeasures for major outbreaks of acute infectious diseases”-Major Science and Technology Project on Public Health of Tianjin [grant numbers 21ZXGWSY00010] and the Tianjin Key Medical Discipline (Specialty) Construction Project (2021)

Jacobsen: What are some social problems of interest to you?

Yu: Covid-19 epidemic, economy, corruption, etc., but it’s not convenient to start the discussion.

Jacobsen: What are things in the development of science and technology of interest to you, now?

Yu: Every major scientific advancement interests me.

Footnotes

[1] Member, CatholIQ; Member, Chinese Genius Directory; Member, EsoterIQ Society; Member, Nano Society; Member, World Genius Directory.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. June. 2022. <https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on Some Intellectual Interests: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (2)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/yu-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-01

Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 836

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) is a Member of the Mega Society based on a qualifying score on the Mega Test (before 1995) prior to the compromise of the Mega Test and Co-Editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. In self-description, May states: “Not even forgotten in the cosmic microwave background (CMB), I’m an Amish yuppie, born near the rarified regions of Laputa, then and often, above suburban Boston. I’ve done occasional consulting and frequent Sisyphean shlepping. Kafka and Munch have been my therapists and allies. Occasionally I’ve strived to descend from the mists to attain the mythic orientation known as having one’s feet upon the Earth. An ailurophile and a cerebrotonic ectomorph, I write for beings which do not, and never will, exist — writings for no one. I’ve been awarded an M.A. degree, mirabile dictu, in the humanities/philosophy, and U.S. patent for a board game of possible interest to extraterrestrials. I’m a member of the Mega Society, the Omega Society and formerly of Mensa. I’m the founder of the Exa Society, the transfinite Aleph-3 Society and of the renowned Laputans Manqué. I’m a biographee in Who’s Who in the Brane World. My interests include the realization of the idea of humans as incomplete beings with the capacity to complete their own evolution by effecting a change in their being and consciousness. In a moment of presence to myself in inner silence, when I see Richard May’s non-being, ‘I’ am. You can meet me if you go to an empty room.” Some other resources include Stains Upon the Silence: something for no one, McGinnis Genealogy of Crown Point, New York: Hiram Porter McGinnis, Swines List, Solipsist Soliloquies, Board Game, Lulu blog, Memoir of a Non-Irish Non-Jew, and May-Tzu’s posterous. He discusses: “More and Less Than Stardust”; “Sound of Morning Light”; and “Braille Shadows.”

Keywords: Alan Watts, Buddha nature, Erwin Schroedinger, Jacob Needleman, Katha Upanishad, Krishnamurti, Max Planck, May-Tzu, Richard May, The Beatles.

Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: “More and Less Than Stardust” makes the distinction between subject and object, internal external. Ultimately, are these distinctions valid? In that, what makes a subject “a subject” and an object “an object,” and “a subject” different from “an object”?

Richard May[1],[2]*: No, these distinctions are not ultimately real, the ‘mystics’ and some scientists agree. This was one of my points.

“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature… because… we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.” — Nobel laureate Max Planck

May: We are part of the universe. All intelligent sentient beings anywhere are also parts of the universe. AI units will be or are parts of the universe. If we have at least some very incomplete awareness of the universe, including ourselves, then this would seem to be the universe observing itself. The universe is awake only when little sentient beings within it are awake, unless stars and galaxies also have conscious minds, which they may. Rupert Sheldrake has written about this possibility. — Macro Buddhas and nano Buddhas, mostly sleeping Buddhas.

Jacobsen: What makes some “states of ‘consciousness’” “useful”?

May: Survival of the organism until reproduction is useful from the perspective of evolutionary natural selection. After generating progeny we are food for worms. We could potentially have other higher purposes also, I suppose.

Jacobsen: If subjectivities are in the universe, is the universe awake, in, at least, this micro-localized aspect of its existence? If so, can we state unequivocally that the universe has self-awarenesses? As “we are the universe observing itself,” is it possible to expand the idea of self-awarenesses or consciousnesses in the universe to the concept of self-awareness or consciousness of the universe? Italics make things look serious and impactful, so italics!

May: Consciousness with knowledge and understanding of the universe is empirical science. Consciousness of the universe is empirical science, I think. Self-awareness in the universe is an emergent phenomenon corresponding to a certain level of neurological development of an organism. I don’t know about self-awareness or consciousness of the universe. Maybe … Perhaps the universe can achieve ‘enlightenment’ or ‘awakening’ of its consciousness, if any. I don’t know.

Jacobsen: What are the various levels of “the One” in its withins and withouts?

May: I do wish that I knew!

Jacobsen: How is “‘our’” separate experience a delusion in this light?

May: “Consciousness is a singular for which there is no plural.” — Erwin Schroedinger. Maybe think of quantum entanglement of ‘particles’ and the Katha Upanishad.

Jacobsen: Why use the phrase of Alan Watts, “skin encapsulated egos,” as the descriptive phrase for this?

May: I didn’t know that this was an Alan Watts phrase. I found it somewhere and liked it, so I used it.

Jacobsen: How is the universe a hologram?

May: The universe may not be a hologram. This was speculative; a possibility.

Jacobsen: How is this hologrammatic universe embedded in human consciousness too (and vice versa)?

May: The universe may not be holographic. This was speculative.

Jacobsen: Are there any other binaries to relate the ideas presented with station and state, being and knowledge, and “makam” and “hal”?

May: I don’t know. I didn’t think of any other binary pairs. (Wave is to Particle) as (Knowledge is to Being)?

Jacobsen: Quoting Krishnamurti, are there any true distinctions between observer and observed?

May: In the case of certain politicians a “rectal-cranial inversion” could give the phrase an additional layer of meaning, I suppose.

Jacobsen: “Sound of Morning Light” is funny. A spring robin, it’s supposed to dance that darned haiku to a 5-7-5 beat, but missed the haiku beat. What was the robin thinking? How did it miss it?

May: The robin was probably thinking about the problem of unifying quantum gravity with general relativity or the cute girl robin next door. Hard to say.

Jacobsen: “Braille Shadows” is terse. A satori moment for a buddha. Zen riddles riddle the landscape. Does morning dew scattering light onto falling petals have the buddha nature?

May: Dew, light and flower petals have the Buddha nature; My writings, as paper and ink, have the Buddha nature and a piece of dung has the Buddha nature.

Jacobsen: There’s some content at the end of the book for No One with this Jacobsen fellow. Who the hell is the damned stupid, annoying, petulant, inconsistent, idiot nobody asking so many gosh dang questions? I heard he has cooties.

“I am he as you are he as you are me

And we are all together.” — The Beatles

“The question ‘Who am I’ and the question ‘What is God?’ are the same question.” — Jacob Needleman.

If I don’t know who or what I am, how can I know who or what another person is?

Maybe we are both just food in a cosmic food chain.

Footnotes

[1] Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society.”

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-11.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-06-01

Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,296

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tomáš Perna is a Member of the World Genius Directory and United Giga Society. He discusses: growing up; extended self; family background; youth with friends; education; purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence; extreme reactions to geniuses; greatest geniuses; genius and a profoundly gifted person; necessities for genius or the definition of genius; work experiences and jobs held; job path; myths of the gifted; God; science; tests taken and scores earned; range of the scores; ethical philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; worldview; meaning in life; source of meaning; afterlife; life; and love.

Keywords: Czech Republic, life, Tomáš Perna, United Giga Society, views, work, World Genius Directory.

Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?

Tomáš Perna[1],[2]*: Especially, how my grandfather and his brothers were fighting for their homeland in conspiracy against German Nazism as the heroism pattern.

Jacobsen: Have these stories helped provide a sense of an extended self or a sense of the family legacy?

Perna: Not directly.

Jacobsen: What was the family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Perna: We have not only Czech roots, but Polish and Italian ones as well. Christians. My father came from teacher´s family, my mother’s mother was a simple countrywoman, her father was a police inspector, both Christians.

Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and an adolescent?

Perna: The best as a child. And as an adolescent, hmm, I sometimes felt myself very emotionally alone.

Jacobsen: What have been some professional certifications, qualifications, and trainings earned by you?

Perna: I have found the 4D-differential structure. Now, as the mathematical modeller I am using it not only to design the models themselves, but to control some used commercial software as well 🙂 :). (Crazy, isn´t it?) I have written one book about common sense of relativity and quantum theory. I should note, however, that I like especially philosophy: to maths I had an indifferent relation, until “she started to like me”:).

Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?

Perna: Yes, your question is a little rhetorical one. For me, they are themselves strongly purpose dependent. Like in music, where you must train and train, doing math modelling or doing any other “diagnostic work”, you must train and train… :). However, one can also see that many items of IQ tests are subjectively overconstructed or “tricky”, which are attributes not “being used in the problems of nature”. Furthermore, the IQ tests are addictive. One must be careful…

Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?

Perna: After the industrial (high) school, I started to work in one design office, where they proposed to administer an IQ test to me. I was found to be a highly intelligent person, without knowing the corresponding IQ concretely.

Perna: Extremes have extreme reactions in their surroundings. Both in a positive and negative sense naturally. However, if geniuses demonstrate some superiority and pride towards others, their (either implicit or explicit) isolation is then a healthy phenomenon, evidently deserved by them.

Jacobsen: Who seems like the greatest geniuses in history to you?

Perna: Socrates, Shakespeare, Newton, Euler, Galois, Poe, Mácha, Einstein…

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?

Perna: Original new ideas possessing beauty.

Jacobsen: Is profound intelligence necessary for genius?

Perna: Yes, one should not consider idiotic geniuses. But profound intelligence can be owned also by “simple”, not particularly educated persons, who are not geniuses.

Jacobsen: What have been some work experiences and jobs held by you?

Perna: I think that I have partially answered this question above. One´s loneliness (“we don´t understand neither it, nor you, but do it!”) could have a devastating effect. Financially as well. Everything is a matter of course in the job, automatically quickly solvable, so why money for such a guy? He (she of course too) is after all not hard working like We (!) are…

Jacobsen: Why pursue this particular job path?

Perna: One feels not only its sense, but it satisfies one’s curiosity as well.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses? Those myths that pervade the cultures of the world. What are those myths? What truths dispel them?

Perna: Possessing a finer mental and emotional charge to perceive a common sense. The myths are connected (about geniuses you mean?) with tendencies to assign the genius properties which can be substituted by properties of artificial intelligence. For example, extreme computational abilities, extreme memory, etc. You have, roughly speaking, 3 levels of problem solving. – Numerical, logical and symbolical. Machine has a chance to find the pattern in the first two levels. The third level with patterns requiring a very deep sense of feeling and understanding is unreachable for it. Therefore, the genius should be attracted by the symbolic level first of all.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?

Perna: God is the very substance of the soul of human being. He provides you with your own identity, as being Scott Jacobsen e.g. 🙂 now, namely within the framework of your eternal manifestations. As to philosophy and theology: I am persuaded that without symbolic parables you have no chance to touch God at all by any language. Concerning religion, the role of humility and deepness of the heart should be the leading features. However, being gifted by these properties, you leave all religions to serve God directly.

Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?

Perna: If science, then profound.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations) for you?

Perna: RAPM 35/36. Then max score of 160 sd15 in one Czech-Mensa supertest, designed specially for persons with IQ 140+. Then 170+ in Tonny Sellen´s Spat1, 180 in one test designed by the professional psychologist and 190 in Betts ZEN. Also some lower scores in more “schulmeistern” tests, mostly 135-150 (working memory requiring, but sometimes only very simple ideas extended within big space).

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Perna: Virtue ethics, I could say. Any action trying to reach harmonic connections.

Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Perna: Any interpretation of a collective or society in terms of free will applied within harmonical possibilities and limitations of the revealed nature.

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Perna: None.

Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes some sense to you, even the most workable sense to you?

Perna: Entities-Identity searching.

Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Perna: Idealism.

Jacobsen: What provides meaning in life for you?

Perna: To serve in the sense of an engaged compassion.

Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?

Perna: The sense of life is inherently presented in the human´s soul. Meaning of anything that exists should be searched in a connection with this sense. Such an action will find then its form of internal and external manifestations within duality-phenomena especially.

Jacobsen: Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, why, and what form? If not, why not?

Perna: Yes. Or more expressively said: there is no afterlife, since life can not evolve towards its end called the death. This would be an existential contradiction and therefore as a nonsense immediately destroyed in a furnace of entropy.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the mystery and transience of life?

Perna: Allow me to say that I am convinced (as indicated above) that transience of life is transient sub specie aeternitatis. To avoid a cliche, I accent simultaneously that moments of eternity can be directly perceived via a beauty felt as involving a mystery of life, which is for me the Presence of God in everyone.

Jacobsen: What is love to you?

Perna: What I desire to give and to get more than anything else.

Footnotes

[1] Member, World Genius Directory; Member, United Giga Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. June. 2022. <https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tomáš Perna on Life, Views, and Work: Member, World Genius Directory (1)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/perna-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-06-01

Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,024

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Ricardo Rosselló Nevares holds a PhD in Bioengineering and Biotechnology. He graduated from Massachusetts Institute of Technology (MIT) with a Bachelor’s degree in Chemistry and Biomedical Engineering with a concentration in Developmental Economics. Rosselló continued his academic studies at the University of Michigan, where he completed a master’s degree and a PhD in Bioengineering and Biotechnology. After finalizing his doctoral studies, he completed post-doctoral studies in neuroscience at Duke University, in North Carolina, where he also served as an investigator. Dr. Rosselló was a tenure track assistant professor for the University of Puerto Rico Medical Sciences Campus and Metropolitan University, teaching courses in medicine, immunology, and biochemistry. Dr. Rosselló’s scientific background and training also makes him an expert in important developing areas such as genetic manipulation and engineering, stem cells, viral manipulation, cancer, tissue engineering and smart materials. He discusses: progressive moves; the status of Roman Catholicism amongst the population; a man of science and a man of faith; and being a father.

Keywords: faith, fatherhood, governance, Puerto Rico, Ricardo Rosselló Nevares, science.

Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

*Interview conducted January 21, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You mentioned equal pay for equal work. You did work for LGBT+ issues while in office. What were some of these other progressive moves that were not necessarily part of institutionalized culture prior to your government?

Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares[1],[2]*: Here’s a reality. The parties in Puerto Rico are different than others in the United States. If you were trying to superimpose your Canadian system into the United States, there would be things that are similar and things that are different. Even though, we are part of the United States. And it’s not that different. It is still different. One difference, my party tends to be more conservative. Although, if somebody had to describe me, they’d describe me centre-left, probably.

Where I think it misguided analysis, anyway, how I see myself, I am fiscally conservative. I was very much a fiscal hawk. Not because I like to cut or not to spend, but because the initial conditions in Puerto Rico demanded it. By the same token, I felt Puerto Rico was very behind on the times in terms of equal rights. My argument, which I must confess was not successful verbalizing it effectively, was, “Statehooders such as ourselves. Our main argument is that we want equal rights. How can we not? Equal rights can’t be for one thing and not for another. It is conceptual. How can you be for equal rights and then not be for equal rights for women, for example, or for equal pay or for equal rights for LGBTQ?”

I’m not going to say it was smooth. My views evolved throughout the whole process. To give you a few examples of policy, I put into plan for Puerto Rico the elimination of conversion therapies. Everybody signed it. Because they weren’t even looking at it. Their oath was already there. At the beginning, they went with it. Then they started to battle it a little bit. We created a bill. We sent it out to the House and the Senate. It didn’t pass.

So, I looked for the best legal minds I could find and said, “Can I do this by Executive Order?” While it is not as strong, it, certainly, was stronger. I made 13 policy promises for the LGBTQ community and 13 policy promises for the faith-based community. Bear with me for a second, here’s how I made them, I think my story is a convoluted story of success and failure because the success in actually doing all of this was saying, “Okay.” This is from what I told you a little bit about seeing people divided and not knowing why they are divided.

I went to sit people at the table. I took leaders from the LGBTQ community and the faith communities. I said, “Hey, you might not agree with some of these things. But which of these things can you live with? What can you not live with? What do you need on your side?” Try to hash those things. It seems like an incremental approach, but it was working. From my 2.5 years in office, I fulfilled 11 of the 13 for the LGBTQ community and, I think, 10 out of the 13 for the faith-based communities.

The problem was that as we were making progress with everything; they wanted more. Each community wanted more, naturally. Then it became a fist-fight. So, here’s what happened, I sent the bill over to the Senate and the House. They declined it. I signed the executive order. Immediately, they decided to create a bill over there that’s a restrictive abortion bill. Not part of our plan, nowhere near it.

Very much, they knew it was against my vision with this anyways. We weren’t going to tackle it one way or another. I think Puerto Rico had a pretty liberal position relative to the States, at least, with abortion. They wanted to restrict it. It was like a response to me on the other side. They passed the bill. They sent it to me. I veto it. You see all of these things. It starts getting angry. A lot of these folks are the base of my party. I’m actually, on principle, fighting for some of the things that I had agreed upon for a community.

It’s the truth. I was not likely to get the majority of the votes because of the party I was from.

But in the list of things, we created the first LGBTQ council for the governors that would establish policy. We changed – on LGBTQ off the top of my head – the administrative actions for equal treatment on most of the agencies, including healthcare. We established civil rights training on LGBTQ for the police and other forces. There were housing projects that were initiated. One of my concerns was the elderly LGBTQ community. It was sort of a niche. They had to go through the harder times – let’s put it that way. It is still very challenging. Many of them were alone. We were trying to create these concepts of housing for LGBTQ elderly. There was a no bullying policy as well.

We created a pilot program called “The Co-Educational Schools.” Let me step back, my policy in Puerto Rico was to establish a choice schooling system within the island. The reason is: The educational system in Puerto Rico has collapsed. The way I saw it. It’s not that I necessarily want or don’t want private or other sectors in it. We needed to shake the system up, somehow. We open it up, Charters come in.

These co-educational schools come in, which mean, essentially, that they teach without assigning gender roles to work. It is unfortunate. It is true. In schools, at least when I was there, they would think about an engineer as a guy; when they think about cooking, they would think of a girl. These schools are designed as a pilot program of 20 schools across the island to break them completely.

On the other side, we allowed the churches to be part of what are called school churches, which is, essentially, a Catholic school or a Protestant school. But it is part of the educational system. Then you would allow parents to go wherever they wanted, where they chose the place for the kids. That is another policy. Being able to adopt for LGBTQ couples who went through our administration, being able to change your birth certificate for trans, those are, in general, off the top of my head, policies.

It was driven by the idea of having an LGBTQ council. I did the same with women. I created a women’s council. I’m a man. I think I know some of the things. I’m sure I am missing others. I am sure I am missing other things I am not feeling; I need their advice to guide policy moving forward. A lot of it came from those two councils. Those are some of the policies. Of course, the vetoing of the abortion restriction bill was a big one.

They almost went over the veto. They missed by one vote. But they almost passed that, as a rage response after some of the other things that were happening. While getting people together worked for me, in establishing policy, it also inevitably created this chaotic environment at the end. Where, if you moved an inch for somebody else, they would see it as an attack on their essence. Both sides would battle it out. I ended up being attacked by both sides.

That’s the cautionary tale. I would still do it that way, as I think that is the way to do it. I wouldn’t have as much hubris as I had – of thinking I could manage it. There are some things that can spiral out of control. As you said, you need to be more vigilant and not think that you can solve everything.

Jacobsen: Going to these Catholic schools as a youngster, what is the status of Roman Catholicism amongst the population, amongst the hierarchs there, as you’re growing up compared to now? Also, many of these positions would seem boiler plate against many of the standard positions of the hierarchs of the church. I understand there are some differences, sometimes vast, between hierarchs and the laity.

Nevares: I consider myself a man of faith and a man of science. This is something I bring to the equation. I don’t think those two points contradict themselves. I think that science allows us to keep looking forward. Similar to an ant in my backyard not knowing Africa exists and has no idea. There are physiological limitations to our brain capacity. They’re likely to enhance as time moves into the future, if we’re sustainable as humanity.

I respect religion. I see the downfalls of it as well. I respect people having faith and diversity in faith. I was never very much too in tune with just being a Catholic or not. It was the school I went to; my parents didn’t really thrust it upon me, either. I was very independent, luckily, with that sort of thing. So, yes, a lot of positions that I took would fly against the establishment, with those things.

Particularly, my origin from a more conservative-leaning party. The thing is, the conservative nature was more on the fiscal and economic rather than on the social. However, I was open about it. Even though, I confess some of these views evolved. You could get angry at it, but you knew where I was going. It was not just said, but written in a document. I said what I wanted to do. My naïve mentality was that there are some things that both faith-based community and LGBTQ are at odds with, but there is a lot of space where we can progress.

At least, let’s get those out of the way, in Puerto Rico, the Catholicism now compared to then; I can’t give you the numbers. I can recall a Time magazine article that was stunning to me. It shows where Catholicism was growing in the world. Some countries in Africa had the most growth. It was dipping the most in some places. Puerto Rico had like a 23% dip if memory serves, in a span of 20 years.

The reason: Puerto Rico opened a lot of Evangelical churches as well. Obviously, aligned with Christianity, but not with Catholicism, I would say Catholicism has dwindled while these other churches have dwindled. There is, particularly among the young, a growing number of folks who identify as either atheists or agnostics. It is, certainly, more diverse.

Again, the Catholic upbringing, before we were the U.S. colony, we were a Spanish colony. Catholicism was baked into it. Yes, it has fallen down. But again, there’s the environment right now, which is similar to the States. It is unfortunate. Sometimes, you have these two sides metaphorically killing each other, where the vast majority of people on a non-charged situation would agree with a lot of the policy. I’ll give you an example.

I think on a neutral basis. 90% of the people in Puerto Rico would agree with me: Conversion therapy needed to be prohibited. I think, by the same token, 90% of the people believe in religious freedoms. The detail is how you define it, of course. The way I define it. We have a diversified faith-based community in Puerto Rico. We have Muslims. We have Jewish faith. We have Evangelicals and Catholics. One of the activities made after Hurricane Maria. We had all of them represented.

The idea behind that concept of religious freedom was more directed to the following: “Nobody can discriminate against you because of your faith.” Not the other side, “Hey, I can’t bake a cake for you.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I remember that.

Nevares: I think 90% of the people would agree. When put into a head of these sides, they become these symbolic victories to either avoid or moved forward some of these things. It gets murky and problematic.

Jacobsen: Now, you consider yourself a man of science and a man of faith. What are the attributes of God?

Nevares: It’s simple. It’s just, “I don’t know.” For me, it’s as challenging to claim there is a bearded man in the clouds as to claim there is absolutely nothing; and it’s just randomness. Could be, I’m not saying they’re not. I’m saying, “I don’t have the foresight or the wherewithal to make those claims. What I do see is there is complexity in the universe, we don’t understand most of it. So, do I think it’s a man who is pulling the strings? Probably not. Do I think there are other forces, which we don’t fully grasp now and might explain or might never understand like consciousness, and so forth? My position: I assume there is a purpose. I don’t think about it necessarily in terms of an afterlife or gods. I just say, “I have faith in that broad definition of what that means to me. That I can’t claim that I understand everything. I can’t claim everything is deterministic, which may or may not be true.”

I do not claim, taking the analogy of the ant, the emergent properties of our consciousness – right now, to us, is the apex in terms of what we analyze. Why should we think rational or logical thinking or scientific thinking, or the analytical basis, is the top tier and the defining element of it all? Again, it’s not taking anything away from science. I think science, as we have been discussing, is a necessary tool to evaluate everything. As with everything, it has its limitations. A lot of it spawned from Newton and his approximations.

Then Einstein made it better, more broad. Yet, Newton’s approximations really run 99.9% of the world around us. I’m saying, in order to achieve some of these higher questions, “I don’t know if some of the tools that we have now are sufficient to get good answers to that.” Obviously, some of those questions are the questions of consciousness, the questions of purpose, afterlife, ‘gods’ if you will.” It is an open-ended book. I see it as something exciting. It is exciting to know and to not know, as there is still a lot to figure out and still a lot to identify.

That’s more or less my worldview. You see it like an onion. You keep peeling layers and information keeps coming. I’ll give an example. I worked on the Human Genome Project, when it was starting at MIT. We thought that we had the road map for humanity. “That’s it! We have the genes. We will be able to solve everything else.” There is a lot more complexity now. You have your proteome. You have interactions. You have junk DNA. All these other things, we are trying to decode that.

We’re figuring out ways to decode all of that. If you ask me, my sense in seeing what has transpired in just my lifetime. We’ve been able to enhance the coding significantly in your and my lifetime. Not to say, in 30 years, we’ll have this conversation, “Wow! Those things talked about back then were outdated and obsolete.” My hunch says, “We’re in an accelerated pace of these things happening with artificial intelligence, with genetic engineering, climate change and the necessity to innovate with it, space travel. Things are going to take a quantum leap forward and have novel systems to survey the landscape.”

Jacobsen: You mentioned having early warnings, then having a gap, then having a late morning for work. What does being a father mean for you?

Nevares: It is a blessing. I’ll tell you. I confess like every father. When you’re in the middle of it, it is grinding.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Nevares: It is tough. From my perspective, when I ran for governor, I had my baby girl in 2014. I was already on the road 20 hours a day. Then I had my son. My wife was pregnant the hurricane came. She was 7 months pregnant when it came. I, practically, never saw them. The silver lining to all of this. You try to make sense and think about the good things that you have as well. I have been able to spend more time as a father. It’s not all rosy all of the time. It is frustrating right before.

Today, I woke up at 4 in the morning. I did some work. Then my kids wake up, then I’m with them for a little bit. My daughter has class. Today, the first part of the class, I wanted to be with her. She’s in first grade. The attention span of not only her, but all the other first graders is impossible to teach a class to first graders. I don’t know how they do it, but God bless a teacher’s patience. I cherish it.

You see – with kids – all of this potential. To me, again, even though, the world is getting more complicated in all these things. I think my role as a parent is just to help them identify something that makes them happy, lead them, give them advice. My eventual goal is, whether it be becoming a scientist or becoming a painter or a dancer or a builder – whatever they want to be, to try to lead them to make their own decisions and to be happy.

I think the two areas, which I think are most important. Which is sort of in the face of traditional education, two qualities that I see that are very important for humanity moving forward is your capacity to adjust to a lot of the changes. Parallel to that, your ability to critically think, to learn and to unlearn. It is weird. I don’t think that was said 40 years ago. But one’s capacity to unlearn is almost as important as one’s capacity to learn because of all of the changes occurring. They are good kids. I am enjoying tis time. Whatever happens, I hope they can lead happy lives. That’s really the crux of it.

Footnotes

[1] Former Governor, Puerto Rico.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5)[Online]. June 2022; 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5). Retrieved from https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. June. 2022. <https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (June 2022). https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Dr. Ricardo Rosselló Nevares on Policies in Governance, Negotiation, Faith and Science, and Fatherhood: Former Governor, Puerto Rico (5)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(A). Available from: https://in-sightjournal.com/rossello-5.

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2022-06-01

The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,099

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Sandy Bell’s personal biography states: “Windhorse Retreat was born in early 2014 when I transitioned from the urban to the rural lifestyle to pursue my dream of living with horses and offering equine facilitated personal development. My goal was to establish Windhorse as a place where ‘horses help us reach our full potential,’ and that included my own life-long learning. At my day retreat in central Alberta, horses and humans come together in deeply meaningful ways for unique learning experiences. As well as providing equine assisted learning opportunities with horses as your guides, I host related workshops and clinics, so you can learn to help your equine friends or deepen your relationships with them. Community development and volunteerism is core to my lifestyle, so you’ll find me volunteering on committees or boards as the opportunities arise. Currently, I serve the Alberta equestrian community as the President of the Board of Directors of the Alberta Equestrian Federation. I hold a B.Sc. (Psychology), a M.A. (Communications & Technology) and am an alumnus of EAL-Canada. I’m a member of the Alberta Association of Complementary Equine Therapy as a Craniosacral Practitioner and Energy Based Practitioner.” She discusses: Windhorse Retreat; Covid impacting the industry; some misconceptions about the economic feasibility of owning horses or having a facility; the equestrian world of a century ago compared to now; gigantic puppy-dogs; horse sense; elected president; separation economically in Canadian society; books, documentaries, or interviews; and final thoughts.

Keywords: Alberta, Alberta Equestrian Federation, equestrianism, Ian Millar, Sandy Bell, Windhorse Retreat.

The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What kind of activities are provided at Windhorse Retreat?

Sandy Bell[1],[2]: Currently, we are shut down because of Covid. Before then, we offered equine facilitated personal development for individuals and for groups. We also offered workshops that were related to horse wellness. So, for example, equine for first-aid or Reiki for horses. Things of that nature. We would consider special events. For example, if the Girl Guides wanted to come for a day to learn about horses, then we would set up something custom designed for them. All of those things, we found impossible to do with the changing landscape of Covid. We have just quietly shut our doors for now – so to speak, and are in the wait-and-see mode.

Jacobsen: How is Covid impacting the industry in the same way?

Bell: Yes, but, maybe, more of a negative impact than I’ve felt, I’ve always been able to have other income coming in, so I could feed my horses, for example. I think some people have had a terrible time in that regard. Last year, the Alberta Equestrian Federation set up a special emergency fund for horses. They supported people’s requests for funds for short-term needs for food and medications in Alberta. Some of the stories of hardship were rather heartbreaking. People lost their jobs. They had a horse that they cared deeply about, and were wondering how they could keep them. We helped them a little bit to make that happen.

Jacobsen: What are some misconceptions about the economic feasibility of owning horses or having a facility for most people? Those who are not in the industry and don’t know.

Bell: I think some of the misconceptions are based on what people see in the media, in terms of the Spruce Meadows kind of events. They might think everyone who has a horse is rich [Laughing] and can afford to show at that level. I think that’s pretty common. I think that might even deter some people from becoming involved because it’s like, “Oh boy, I couldn’t do that. It would be costly, cost too much.” There is a misconception that they couldn’t learn to ride or to drive a horse. Those are the two that come to mind. “It’s not for me because of my aptitude barriers, talent, or finances.”

Jacobsen: How would you compare the equestrian world of a century ago compared to now in Canadian society? How is it different with the combustible engine being completely ubiquitous compared to a time when it wasn’t necessarily so?

Bell: People knew horses then because they lived with them intimately. They worked with them every day. They were their partners in the economy. Imagine managing a city with stables right downtown and horses all over, people riding them, driving them, pulling wagons. People were very comfortable with horses because of that. Life was paced differently because it was by horsepower. Of course, then came the 1900’s first World War, the horses were an integral part of the war effort. You read the accounts of how many millions of horses died in battle. So, horses were part of that as well. Very possibly, that’s the reason why things turned out the way they did in the wars because the Allied forces could win with the horsepower behind them. The farms and the ranches here in Alberta who gave horses, shipped them overseas to the war effort, is an extraordinary thing to think about now.

For example, Bar U Ranch in the south of Calgary had, at the time, a world-renowned Percheron breeding program and Percherons from Alberta were a significant contributor to the war effort. After that, people came back home. As you say, the engine took over and slowly work horses on the farm were phased out for tractors. The world changed for horses. We thought of them in a different way. They became a day-to-day, not partners, companions for sport and for recreation. I’m fortunate to live in the country, where around me; there are still some people who use horses in their ranch work, still in very traditional ways. That’s pretty neat to see.

So, they still have that kind of partnerships with horses. I think we might be missing something not having a broader intimate relationship with the horse, but I don’t know that we can [Laughing]. I don’t know if we can introduce them back into the cities [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Maybe downtown carriage tours in cities.

Bell: Yes. Someone like yourself who was recently thrown into the horse world. You, probably, are feeling some of that going, “Wow. This is interesting how I feel whenever I am around horses.”

Jacobsen: It is fascinating, the feeling they give you. You can’t, as someone new to it, put a word to it, yet. What’s the word coming to mind for you as someone who has been part of it much more than me?

Bell: You begin to see them as individual beings and appreciate the wordless, or the unspoken, power that they have, and to humbled by their willingness to work with and put up with people. They’re quite remarkable creatures.

Jacobsen: I’m surprised in the stalls how goofy some of them are.

Bell: Yes!

Jacobsen: They’re like gigantic puppy-dogs. You clean the stall, put in fresh shavings, and they go hog wild. They roll around. It’s very funny to see.

Bell: Yes, “The majestic equine, the majestic horse,” has some very goofy sides, sometimes.

Jacobsen: The elegance of them comes when they are out of the stall and doing something as simple as lunging. Let’s say they’re doing a canter or a trot in circles, like a light jog, they’re extraordinarily rhythmic in the innate pace that they have, then they get in the stall and do all these goofy things. When I first got into the industry, it was hard to put those two pictures together. It was like two animals in one.

Bell: They are complex, for sure. We should not underestimate them. Surely, we know their brains are different from us. They must have a different way of thinking and being. But it is quite a remarkable brain, nonetheless. I came across an article, recently, about the differences between the horse brain and the human brain are part of the magic or the foundation for the relationship that we can have with them.

So, if you’re really connected with your horse when you’re riding, and you can feel, if you can think that thought, “Let’s canter now,” the subtle changes in your body can communicate to them. You can get it. You can seamlessly, like a centaur, just fly on. The neuroscience behind the horse-human relationship is starting to fascinate me a lot. I need to read more about it.

Jacobsen: This is a new field, where, for a long time, it was more of an intuitive grasp of it rather than a formal empirical study of the human mind in relation to the horse mind.

Bell: They talked about this. Now, there is the neuroscience explaining it. It is not just woo-woo. These people are not just a little off [Laughing]. It’s not, “No, this is real.” [Laughing].

Jacobsen: When I first talked about entering the industry, people would say things like, “All horse people are crazy.” I said, “Great! I’m crazy too. I’ll fit right in.”

Bell: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Ian Millar, actually, in some footage, some video footage, I don’t recall the source of it, having source amnesia. However, the content was very similar to other things, which I’ve heard from equestrians. Which is, the idea of “the feel” or “feel.” The idea of simply having an intuitive sense with a horse based on experience or innate talent of feeling animals, of just knowing how to work a horse, get it to go left, get it to go right, get it to do what you want, to have the relationship built, but based on the sense, that horse sense, developed over time.

Bell: Whatever you want to call it, is it intuition? Is it some gift you’re born with? Are you feeling their body with your body and vice versa? Because it is all non-verbal. It’s very complex. So, when we horse people get together and talk to each other, and non-horse people hear us, they think we’re crazy.

Jacobsen: There is a symbiotic relationship there for sure. What was the feeling when you were elected president?

Bell: I was very honoured to have people put their faith in me to steward the organization. My goals were to strengthen government, governance, and financial accountability. That resonated with people. So, that was a nice endorsement of how I thought I could contribute to the organization. I previously held the position of treasurer. So, I had a solid grasp of the finances of the organization. I thought I could contribute to the governance structure. Yes, it was really an honour, humbling really, to have people say, “Yeah, we believe you can lead the organization in this way.”

Jacobsen: Do you think a separation economically in Canadian society in some places at some levels can prevent entrance into equestrianism, whether founding a facility, owning the horse, or getting lessons?

Bell: Most definitely. It is something that I think all the equestrian societies or federations should take a look at because involvement in equestrianism is declining. The barriers to becoming involved are part of that reason. What can we do about that? From my own personal circumstance, though as a girl with a passion of horses, I was on the wrong side of the tracks to do anything about it. I’m very sure. There are inner city kids who would love to connect with horses. You have to figure out ways to make that happen. It is a good thing. I don’t know if you have heard of the Urban Cowboys in Philadelphia.

Jacobsen: No, I haven’t.

Bell: Yes, it has been something that’s been part of inner city Philadelphia forever, sounds like. It is people who actually board or stable and ride their horses in inner city Philadelphia. They are giving back to the community by engaging youth that would never have an opportunity to be with a horse. It would be really neat to do something like that, like in Calgary or in Edmonton. Not sure how we’d do it. They have such a longstanding history of being there physically present in inner city Philadelphia. It’d be pretty hard to move them out. We would just need to find a space in inner city Calgary to set something up.

Jacobsen: Would you recommend any books, documentaries, or interviews for individuals who would want to get involved in equestrianism in Alberta?

Bell: I would recommend all the resources on the Alberta Equestrian Federation website and to follow our social media feeds. There’s lots of entry-level and little bit above information, programs, at Equine Guelph – University of Guelph’s equine program. Personally, I like to read about horses. So, anything I can get my hands on from a book about basic grooming to something that’s a little more nuanced like Zen Mind, Zen Horse by Allan Hamilton who is a neuroscientist. There are lots of different kinds of books out there. So, go visit your library and talk to your librarian about whatever your interests are, at whatever level, people who have horses or have a collection books are always to happy share or pass them on.

They could even be exercises to do with your horse if you have one of your own, or more about understanding your horse. So, the body language of horses and communication with horses, that sort of thing. Movies and things like that, there are some good ones out there. You will find horse people watching a Western movie and critiquing the riding [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Bell: Hidalgo is an interesting movie about someone who did a race across Africa and their experience. Of course, for all the younger people, all the oldie but goldy ones, like Black Beauty, The Black Stallion, The Black Stallion Returns.

Jacobsen: Any final thoughts on the interview today?

Bell: I want to thank you, Scott. It’s been fun. I’m really excited for your personal horse adventure. How you’re growing and exploring, and figuring out what fits for you.

Jacobsen: Thank you.

Bell: So, thank you for giving us a ring and allowing me the opportunity to talk about my personal experience and the Alberta Equestrian Federation, and just horse stuff in general.

Jacobsen: It’s been lovely, Sandy, thank you.

Footnotes

[1] President, Board of Directors, Alberta Equestrian Federation; Principal, Windhorse Retreat.

[2] Individual Publication Date: June 1, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2)[Online]. June 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, June 1). The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, June. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (June 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): June. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 6: Sandy Bell, B.Sc., M.A. on Windhorse Retreat, Horse Sense, and Resources (2)[Internet]. (2022, June 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/bell-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links June be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-05-22

The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,781

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI is an Ivy League academic physician and scientist at the University of Pennsylvania. He is a member of the Mega Society, the OlympIQ Society and past member of the Prometheus Society. He is the designer of the cryptic Mega Society logo. He is member of several scientific societies and a Fellow of the American College of Radiology and of the American Heart Association. He is the co-Founder of the Arrhythmia Imaging Research (AIR) lab at Penn. His research is funded by the National Institute of Health. He is an international leader in three different fields: cardiovascular imaging, artificial intelligence and cybersecurity. He discusses: cruelty; burn out; treatment of physicians; ‘alternative’ medicine; ignorance; masquerading as knowledge; Dr. Oz-ification of culture; scientific illiteracy; deceased or now-disabled colleagues; UDHR; International Labour Organization; Dr. Oz; defense mechanisms or infrastructure to protect themselves from the litigious patients; and those with fewer means and less authority in medical institutions.

Keywords: American, Benoit Desjardins, Medicine, physicians, quack medicine, science, United States.

The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*This interview represents Dr. Desjardins’ opinion, combined to the current content of the published medical literature, and not necessarily the opinion of his employers.*

On the medical-legal system in the U.S.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How is the U.S. comparable to the Middle Ages with patients blaming physicians for illness?

Dr. Benoit Desjardins: It is often taught that the U.S. has been the only country since the Middle Ages in which people blame physicians for their diseases. There is no personal accountability anymore in the U.S. Every problem Americans face is someone else’s fault. They blame most problems on immigrants or rich people, but they blame healthcare problems on physicians. If a woman delivers an imperfect baby, she blames it on the physician and tries to extort money. If a man develops lung cancer after chain-smoking for 50 years, he will often go over his past medical record with lawyers to see if a physician could be blamed for his cancer. Sometimes they discover early imperceptible evidence about cancer and then try to extort money from physicians. Most U.S. courtrooms in medical-legal trials are like the courtroom from the movie “Idiocracy,” where massively ignorant, scientifically illiterate people try to blame top physicians for patients’ diseases. The U.S. medical-legal system has been the laughingstock of the entire planet for more than fifty years.

Jacobsen: Outside of individual violent reprisals by former or current patients, what about the legal repercussions? Where, individual patients may have legitimate claims and may not. However, in a litigious culture, as in the U.S., this can be a major issue. The general litigious culture may become magnified in a context of life-and-death, and general illness, issues. So, what happens?

Jacobsen: Also, how is the court system in Pennsylvania?

Jacobsen: What are some fallouts or likely outcomes from this idiocy?

Jacobsen: How does this impact the future of the field to recruit sufficiently qualified, even talented, individuals? Where do they go? What about those better physicians in the field who can hack it – the workload and the B.S., but don’t want to deal with the sheer tonnage of nonsense and risks to livelihood?

Desjardins: In the past ten years, my clinical section, which is in desperate need of more radiologists, has not been able to recruit any radiologists. We have even offered some promising recruits the possibility to work remotely. By never setting foot in Philadelphia, this eliminates their chances of getting assaulted or stabbed in the face by patients. Still, they refused as they do not want to be associated with the city of Philadelphia for the reasons described above.

Jacobsen: How do U.S. physicians keep one another in check, too, in case of malpractice – so back to higher levels of healthcare education and authority?

Jacobsen: Have physicians built any defense mechanisms or infrastructure to protect themselves from the litigious patients, when they inevitably arise, or the top-heavy bureaucratic culture?

On medical quackery in the U.S.

Jacobsen: There’s plenty of bullshit remedies out there in the public sold by the boatload. What about medical institutions who buy into them and begin to practice them? What are cases of this? Are there any consequences for individuals engaged in giving out known ineffective treatments?

Jacobsen: Also, what are the problems with ‘alternative’ medicine, naturopathic medicine, and so on?

Desjardins: They don’t work. Just look at the late Steve Jobs.

It was enough to deal with the issue. They were orthogonal to the evidence-based claims, so wrong, pointless – by my estimation, and such lightweight critiques, even a young independent journalist could deal with them. Yet, these forms of alternative practice are present, proliferating, and have been with cultures forever, though more complex in the nonsense with technology.

It’s simply less excusable as medicine and meta-analytic studies’ powers give, not deep insight but, a modicum of reasonable thou-shalts and thou-shalt nots of good health guidelines in general, as you stipulated earlier.

People seem entitled. Professionals who spend their time thinking and researching narcissism claim a rise in narcissism over decades. Entitlement is a facet of narcissism. How is the Dr. Oz-ification of culture and medicine halting progress on the front of proper treatment of dis-ease in American society?

Desjardins: Some individuals with top credentials in a specific field sometimes become self-appointed experts in entirely different fields. Dr. Mehmet Oz is one of those. He is a retired Ivy League Professor and cardiothoracic surgeon fro Columbia University. He is a scholar with top credentials in a highly specialized field, who has become a television personality and started providing general health advice. He has promoted pseudoscience, alternative medicine, faith healing, and paranormal beliefs. Dr. Scott Atlas, a prominent neuroradiologist from Stanford, was appointed by Trump as a coronavirus advisor, an area in which he had no expertise. He then spread massive misinformation about COVID and advised against the official policy of the CDC. Pseudo-experts are tools that ignorant, corrupt people use to spread misinformation in the U.S. These pseudo-experts halt progress of good evidence-based medical policy and affect the quality of care.

Jacobsen: Other than Dr. Oz, who are other ignorance-mongers becoming rich off offering fake medicine?

Footnotes

[1] Academic Physician; Member, OlympIQ Society; Member, Mega Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture[Online]. May 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, May 22). The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, May. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (May 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): May. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The American Medical System and Physicians 3: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on Burnout, Quack Medicine, and Litigious American Culture[Internet]. (2022, May 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-3.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-05-22

Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,425

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Masaaki Yamauchi is the Administrator of ESOTERIQ Society. He discusses: mother; the town of 14,000 people; the spirit; acquisition of a graduate degree; the high-IQ communities now; the concept of IQ increasing or decreasing in cultural importance; high-IQ societies self-destruct; life; math; manufacturing industrial jobs; the WIN seven league; no religious dogma; social sensitivity; metaphysics; a miracle; time; and consciousness.

Keywords: administrator, ESOTERIQ, intelligence, IQ, Japanese, JAPANIQ Society, Masaaki Yamauchi.

Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3)

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was the “heavy disease” killing your mother?

Masaaki Yamauchi[1],[2]*: Sorry, that is a confidential information between my family and relations. My mother`s soul will be reborn at next body in the future. Then, I will meet her again someday.

Jacobsen: Did the town of 14,000 people on the countryside make life simpler for you, growing up?

Yamauchi: Yes, It was a simple life. Just I usually read many books in the library at the high school student. I had never felt that life was bored.

Jacobsen: What is the spirit to you?

Yamauchi: There are plenty of meaning about it, but it mainly implies non-physical existence in my definition.

Jacobsen: How are your studies progressing towards acquisition of a graduate degree?

Yamauchi: I wish I would go to a graduate school of Mathematical physics (almost same as theoretical physics) after just graduating from my college with Math major and Physics minor. I hope acquisition of a Master`s degree in social science or humanities, not natural science any more at the present.

Jacobsen: What do you think is needed from the high-IQ communities now?

Yamauchi: No needs. Just I keep my societies (ESOTERIQ and EVANGELIQ) by the end of my life.

Jacobsen: Is the concept of IQ increasing or decreasing in cultural importance? In that, are people taking it more or less seriously, and why?

Yamauchi: In 1996, one famous book, the Bell Curve by Richard J. Herrnstein and Charles Murry, was disputed in U.S.A. It does not make sense about the controversy because IQ is just a psychometric tool psychologically and statistical distribution mathematically. IQ is not factor of human intelligence. All current 8 billion people belong somewhere between 5 and 195 on normal distribution at any time. I am strongly certain that 195 scorer does not imply smarter than 5 scorer.

For example, there are two persons who won 33 times and lost 33 times in Rock-Paper-Scissors-world population championship respectively.

Is really the 33 times winner much luckier than the 33 times loser?

The answer is no because luckiness of both of them is absolutely equal to

1 in 2^33 = 1 in 8.5 billions.

The frequency is just a statistical necessary on binomial distribution.

Let me say again.

“Supposing it never happens to anybody subjectively, it always happens somebody objectively in the world”

I have mentioned before about relationship between normal distribution and binomial distribution on the first interview.

195 scorer (highest IQ person) and 5 scorer (lowest IQ person) are to what 33 times winner (luckiest person) and 33 times loser (unluckiest person) statistically.

Somebody says “Albert Einstein`s IQ was 160, 180 or 200 over!”

So what?

All historical geniuses were recorded by great academic performance, not IQ score itself.

All people can have each own absolute luckiness and intelligence as in 1 in 80 billions.

Jacobsen: Why do most high-IQ societies self-destruct?

Yamauchi: Each founder has each own reason to sustain a society.

Jacobsen: What do you hope to get out of life?

Yamauchi: Living itself. I will leave from this planet and go back to my mother star Sirius after end of my reincarnation on the Earth.

Jacobsen: What kinds of math have you tutored?

Yamauchi: Elementary algebra to high school calculus.

Jacobsen: What are the manufacturing industrial jobs for you?

Yamauchi: Several kinds. Haulage, auto parts, pharmaceuticals, electronic components and semiconductor.

Jacobsen: What most impresses you about the WIN seven league?

Yamauchi: The EVANGELIQ society I founded for Dr.Evangelos Katsioulis‘s 37^th birthday gift was admitted to the 37^th society. It made me so happy and it was such an honorable.

Jacobsen: Even though, you have no religious dogma. What religious dogma seems reasonable to you?

Yamauchi: Almost all religion has a founder and scripture, but my dogma does not keep neither. My reasonable belief follows to my own inspiration, loving myself and enjoying life everyday.

Jacobsen: What is “social sensitivity” to you?

Yamauchi: Social sensitivity is one of emotional intelligence, an ability to detect the emotions of others. There is no correlation between succeed at project and team`s average IQ.

Jacobsen: Why define metaphysics as a kind of spiritualism?

Yamauchi: Metaphysics is separated into two words “Meta (over)” and “Physics (matter)” which imply inquiring non-physical. Spirit is always non-physical life, so metaphysics is a kind of spiritualism to me.

Jacobsen: How would define everything as a miracle?

Yamauchi: I really love Albert Einstein`s quote which is “There are only two ways to live your life. One is as though nothing is a miracle. The other is as though everything is a miracle.”

One second, one minutes, one hour and one day are filled with a miracle at the given mechanical moment.

The minimum unit of quantum time is made from plank time (5.391*10^-44 s).

Therefore, every moment is momentarily created by the infinite series from the time.

Jacobsen: In our first interview, you stated, “Time will come from future to past, not past to future. All causes occur by a reason from future, not a past event.” Can you expand on this reasoning, please?

Yamauchi: Every event in our life is just a neutral fact even if war, terrorism murder, massacre and pandemic like corona virus on the Earth. A word “Responsibility” comes from combination of “Response” and “Ability”. We have nothing to fear because we can have responsibility to response all events by our ability. Our future will be created by our responsibility, not events themselves. We always hold two choices “Reaction”　and “Response”　which define negative judgement and positive judgement respectively when one event happens to our life.

For instance, getting a new job after dismissing from a company means what getting a new job is cause, not effect. Dismissing from a company is effect, not a cause.

Jacobsen: How does our consciousness fall into the brain? In this way, how are you technically defining consciousness?

Yamauchi: I suppose brain is to consciousness what matter is to mind. Bertrand Russell said “What is matter? Never mind. What is mind? Doesn`t matter” This is the best joke I like.

By the way, let me ask seriously. Does a line really exist?

According to the Euclid`s elements, “A line is length without breadth”

If so, nobody can see it!

We cannot prove the existence of line in this way.

Therefore, a line exists imaginary, but does not exist actually.

As well as a line, consciousness exists imaginary, but does not exist actually since brain is almost everything as far as our physical body sustains life activity.

However, consciousness separate from brain in a moment when we die (after brain disappear) then move to non-physical world (imaginary world).

I can tell you one pragmatic example in neuroscience field.

There was one famous man named H.M (a man without hippocampus).

https://www.npr.org/2007/02/24/7584970/h-m-s-brain-and-the-history-of-memory

The person had no concept about past and future because he was not able to keep any episode memory.

His consciousness was always on now and today when he woke up every morning, no yesterday`s memory, no tomorrow`s plan.

He was able to know how to ride a bicycle and use some tools even though he had no hippocampus.

That is, past training skill was recorded in different part whose name was basal ganglia and cerebellum as procedural memory.

Same as H.M story, almost all people can never keep past life memory since past life episode memory always disappears before hippocampus cell creates while we are growing up in mother`s uterus, but past life skill can succeed to next body`s basal ganglia and cerebellum as procedural memory.

Brain is to consciousness what egg-york is to egg-white in my theory. Brain itself (the York) as a matter disappears, but only consciousness (the white) as a non-physical matter inherits to next difference body (Reincarnation) when we die.

It sounds impossible to separate the York and white without cracking the cell, but we can temporally separate brain and consciousness by some specific religious ritual like meditation, long time fasting and psychoactive drug (LSD or cannabis)

Let me introduce strongly recommend two safety tools I have experienced before.

Isolation tank by John C. Lilly (origin of the movie, Altered States)

https://www.samadhitank.com/

Hemi-Sync by the Monroe Institute (founded by Robert Monroe)

https://www.monroeinstitute.org/

Furthermore, the beginning of our consciousness is introduced in Voyage to curiosity`s further by Bruce Moen.

https://www.bookdepository.com/Voyage-Curiositys-Father-Bruce-Moen/9781571742032

In a nutshell, we all human came to the Earth to seek unconditional love energy, then we will leave from this planet to each home star like Sirius, Pleiades, Vega, Arcturus and Orion after we are sufficiently filled with it.

Footnotes

[1] Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3)[Online]. May 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, May 22). Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, May. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (May 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): May. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Masaaki Yamauchi on Thoughts About I.Q., Time, Consciousness, and Metaphysics: Administrator, ESOTERIQ Society (3)[Internet]. (2022, May 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yamauchi-3.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links May be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-05-22

Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,512

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies, including World Genius Directory, NOUS High IQ Society, 6N High IQ Society just to name a few. He has several IQ scores above 160+ sd15 among high range tests like Gift/Gene Verbal, Gift/Gene Numerical of Iakovos Koukas and Lexiq of Soulios. Tor Arne was also in 2019, nominated for the World Genius Directory 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe. He is the only Norwegian to ever have achieved this honor. He has also been a contributor to the Genius Journal Logicon, in addition to being the creater of toriqtests.com, where he is the designer of now eleven HR-tests of both verbal/numerical variant. His further interests are related to intelligence, creativity, education developing regarding gifted students. Tor Arne has an bachelor`s degree in history and a degree in Practical education, he works as a teacher within the following subjects: History, Religion, and Social Studies. He discusses: European interpretation of the Russo-Ukrainian war; the major losses and wins for the Western countries in this war; Putin; Zelensky; the massive disagreement with the Russian Federation’s actions from the United Nations General Assembly; other major players on the world stage; China; African states; the post-colonial states with large economies; this conflict on 1 to 10; reactive commentary; nuclear weapons; the Nordic countries; the U.N. condemnation; the “neutral zone”; health; bold moves and a legacy; a bilateral conflict; a war in the economic sphere; cyberwarfare; democratic development; Sino-Russian relations; and any sympathetic statements by Western European leaders.

Keywords: China, India, NATO, Russia, Tor Arne Jørgensen, United Nations, Western Europe, Zelensky.

Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the European interpretation of the Russo-Ukrainian war at the moment?

Tor Arne Jørgensen[1],[2]*: The general view that we in Europe have, and with that I mean the Nordic countries bordering Russia in particular, is that with this war and the possibility for aggression that Russia poses against us, especially against Sweden and Finland which are not included as per today into the NATO alliance are viewed as grave to say it mildly.

An imminent accession into NATO for these two Nordic countries will not be an easy decision by the two nations leaders to make, as the border with Russia and an ever-increasing narrowing of the “neutral zone” if one can call it that between NATO alliance and Russia. Thus, it is not an easy decision to make, as this neutral zone and its weathering can accelerate an all-out escalation of the conflict between the West and the East. Russia and the West do not benefit from such a direct neighborhood, a neutral zone must be established so that the war does not become global.

Here in the West and especially Europe, we must hold back, send the proper signals to the United States, not to push more than necessary, by that I mean, purposely to create stability and going forward to perhaps put an end through acts of diplomacy and dissolving warring between Russia and Ukraine. This sums up what we in Europe now hope for in my view.

Jacobsen: What have been the major losses and wins for the Western countries in this war?

Jørgensen: The losses are clear, with the intention of looking at oil and gas, but not nearly as bad as for Russia, as this has so far been a disaster for its economy. Western military victories are probably not something to be viewed, as any territories have not been taken or given over by eastern states. So the losses are seen only in economic terms so far, while the victories are noticed by increased support against dictatorial tyranny, and the advance of democratic values.

Jacobsen: What did Putin underestimate?

Jørgensen: The Ukrainian leadership and the will of the Ukrainian people to resist Russian aggression.

Jacobsen: What did Zelensky underestimate?

Jørgensen: He was probably not aware of the role he was to play during this war, in which the similarities with England’s greatest statesman of all time, Winston Churchill has been made openly. Furthermore, the West’s enormous support as to both humanitarian and military, and as well as an overall global compassion and support from all generations young and old.

Jacobsen: How has the massive disagreement with the Russian Federation’s actions from the United Nations General Assembly changed the international discourse on the war?

Jørgensen: The fact that the Russian Federation has a permanent seat at the Security Council and thus cannot be removed indefinitely by allowing the current government to continue to govern as they please. But the suspension from the UNHRC and the symbolic significance it has is possibly a sign of a shift in the balance of power, or the influential effect that the Russian Federation has in its executive mandate.

Whether this will then be what it takes to create a new or alternative direction through changed attitude towards the United Nations and its Security Council, or whether new guidelines should be considered of what a member state can allowed itself to do in accordance with human rights violations in wartime remains to be seen. That a change in membership conditions should be brought up for debate is clear.

The UN’s reputation as a peacekeeping organization during peacetime or not is being put to the test more now than ever before since the organization first began just after WWII and the foundation from which it was built on. Sees now a change of organizational absolutes as an inevitably necessity, viewed from the current situation regarding the Russian-Ukraine war and the powerlessness in which the United Nations finds itself in the same manner as during the time of the League of Nations.

Jacobsen: What about other major players on the world stage either by economy or population size, or both? How is India taking this wartime issue?

Jørgensen: India’s economic implications resulting from the war between Russia and Ukraine have their clear effect as to the fall in the global market, prompt from the fall in the stock market, specifically with reference to India’s dependence on oil in various forms, including sunflower oil coming from both countries (Russia-Ukraine). Furthermore, technological implicit in the tech sector, not to forget the pharmaceutical sector.

India can certainly adjust towards a more independent policy line, where a rather marginalized strategy, result to a reducing of outsourcing, may in the long run prove to be beneficial not only for India, but for most countries whereas their independence or promos must be reconsidered as these the type of conflicts as we now see will probably not remain isolated in the future. The protection of one’s natural resources, and upscaling of and for one’s close bilateral relations across close neighbors, can break outstretched and more insecure imports of the most vulnerable of resources.

Jacobsen: What is China doing now in reaction if any?

Jørgensen: It seems to me that China keeps a low profile still and cleverly so, because one must keep in mind that China has here a unique opportunity to observe the West’s and its reaction with reference to the Russia -Ukraine ongoing conflict. How stable and structured is NATO today, where is the community’s trust, and to what extent is NATO’s military might view today. One must not look at today’s NATO in the same manner as to its military capabilities as the former League of Nations and to what it had in its arsenal nor its lack of a tight alliance. NATO is probably stronger today than ever before. But I must admit, that to what extent NATO’s role had to play after the fall of the Iron Curtain back in -89, when the need of such an alliance was no longer so pressing in what seemed to be peacetime and added in the Warsaw Pact’s dissolution during the summer of -91.

But back to China and the role of the Chinese government now, is I think, to sit tight, wait, stay calm, take notes regarding, strategically, materially, economically, and finally the key most important thing, honor, to keep their honor and not lose face, something that Russia has so solemnly now done perhaps irrepealably damage its own role as an historically important powerhouse. This is probably what will be mostly important for China to do now, furthermore, its role ahead in terms of the China -Taiwan controversy and adding NATO’s role in its support of Taiwan and thus resistance from the Chinese government of the probability of an extended formation of a NATO pacific alliance.

Jacobsen: How are African states, e.g., Nigeria, taking this into account in terms of impacts on their economy?

Jørgensen: What cannot be avoided in this context is the importance that Ukraine attaches to the world’s food supply, as Ukraine is the main grain stock for many of us. African northern states feel this even more, as many of these states are daily dependent on the supply of stable and secure grain delivery from Ukraine in particular, the same can be said with regards to food oils which then constitute an increased importance in the supplement in grain / food exported from Ukraine to the world.

For those countries that are completely dependent on the safe supply of grain to feed their compatriots, this is a very unfortunate situation to be in, far worse than many of the western countries that have alternative solutions to consider ensuring stability of a stable grain stock etc.

Jacobsen: What about the post-colonial states with large economies, e.g., the United States of America, Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and Israel (and South Africa)?

Jørgensen: If one considers the United States, as they are not dependent on Russian oil to the same extent of what Europe is, with Germany as the most dependent state in Europe of Russian oil and gas. Nor when it comes to access to stable business routes to ensure food deliveries to its own population.

The same could be said at least to some extent regarding Canada, Australia, New Zealand, and South Africa as well, where one should take certain restrictions in the requirement for stable energy sources regarding fossil fuels, and to a certain extent again in the degree of self-sufficiency of food supply, and the availability of various grains and oils directed towards the food industry. It should probably also be added that Australia’s atomic political foundations, are self-supported through sufficiency by and for one’s own omittance of the import need prompt to the state’s existence, is thereby marked to be define as self-sufficient in accordance with the Australian statutes of sustainability.

Jacobsen: If we scale this conflict on 1 to 10 with 10 being WWI and WWII, and 1 being global peacetime, where does this conflict sit on this spectrum?

Jørgensen: From what you suggested as to what scale to use, I will probably lean towards 3 or 4 out of 10 as of current time, where a upscaled to a clear 4 out of 10 within the next 2 months, for then to be scaled down again to 2 out of 10 within the next 8-12 months.

Jacobsen: There was reactive commentary immediately on social media about WWIII. How much of this is simply hysterics rather than realistic appraisal about the situation in the earlier parts of the war and now?

Jørgensen: A changed state in and around the theme of World War III, is for me not from the state one sees as of today nor what was at the start a realistic picture to form or take in. Why do I say this, probably because Russia’s interests do not, even if Putin and his state may impromptu us to believe, that an end war is a possible comprehend rum? That a long-term planning as it is then described regards to the world media, one quickly sees that his plan (Putin) and his cabinet failed miserably.

For me, when one lays a plan A, then one lays plan B-C-D… In the early stages of the war, the long supply lines regarding the 6km long convoy that was to make Russia and its immense power for the “world to fear,” resulted in a complete ridicule for all of us to watch. After this rather embarrassing mockup by the dreaded Russian war machine, one thinks and sees that this cannot be well planned. If well planned, Russia would have had to be aware of which corner they would paint themselves into when they started their war campaign.

Now Russia is almost looked upon as a global outcast, the Russian leadership is detested completely by a united West. The Russian leader has destroyed the pride of his country and what trace of honor that must be left should now not remain permanently destroyed. A third world war seems to me to be impossible for Russia’s people, internal government, nor for Russia’s allies. Even the participation of Syrian mercenaries will probably not change the outcome of this war, nor will Sweden’s and Finland’s incorporation into NATO’s safe embrace.

Finally, I would like to point out that the West is a greater threat to a third world war with its constant tightening of the net around an ever increasingly pressured Russia, whereby their allies can counteract NATO’s patronage of Russia’s autonomy.

Jacobsen: Would Putin use nuclear weapons? Would NATO nations consider the use of their nuclear weapons if so? In either case, these seem insane, as this is “mutually assured destruction.”

Jørgensen: We only have this one planet, we all play in the same sandbox, the world has too much to lose. Look at China and all the developments that they are now experiencing, they are one of the world’s strongest economies. They and India will not let Russia end the world in the quest to acquire lost lands. Everyone realizes that the Soviet Union and its heyday are over, and the President of Russia must realize this once and for all.

Jacobsen: Will this grave picture from the Nordic countries create a necessity for wartime participation from most of them on the side of Ukraine? If so, which nation-states?

Jørgensen: If one looks with regards to the application for NATO membership for both Sweden and Finland, thus marking a possible historic Nordic shift, then the Nordic alliance in addition to the alliance with NATO as an extra boost security against Russian aggression. By that said, will then Russia remain a lasting threat for the Nordic countries to deal with, do not think so. Separate we are small and maybe few, but united we are strong and somewhat plentiful.

Finland alone has previously shown the world that they can certainly hold their ground, for example during the Russo-Finnish war back in 1939 -40, where Russia invaded Finland, the Finnish forces not only held their stand, but also manage to push back the invading forces for quite some time. But at the same time, it should be duly pointed out that Russia’s in that sense increased cooperation in every sense with China, as well as North Korea, where Russia’s support in a military sense has been marked in China as well as North Korea’s military with reference buildup after the end of World War II.

One should further keep in mind that the Cold War was never really over, but forever-expanding regards to NATO expansion, the NATO alliance has been eating away more and more of territorially sovereignty on its way towards the Eastern Front, whereby the current tense situation now runs counter to everyone’s astonishment?!

It should also be said that the United States and its status as the world’s only superpower, can no longer be stated as factual.

Iran, Russia, North Korea, and USA, yes, all countries that have nuclear weapons capabilities for use in their arsenal are now to be considered a superpower as their nuclear armaments can reach all targets across the globe. The quintessential question to be asked now is, by what purpose is it to use these weapons, aren’t we all still live in the same sandbox?? If we were to start a third world war, then the outcome would be very possible, as Albert Einstein once said, If, this becomes a reality, that is, World War III, then “the next one will be fought with sticks and stones.” The idea of being bombed back to the Stone Age, where all hope of restoration is to be regarded as utopian wishful thinking, think of a Mars-like scenario, and end of civilization as we know it, the reality hits you.

Jacobsen: Does the U.N. condemnation, overwhelming, of this situation, justify legal ramifications and an investigation into the crimes and human rights violations by Russia against civilians and Ukrainian sovereignty?

Jørgensen: Undoubtedly yes, although one can ask questions of a more investigative position, so yes, here there is no doubt about its legality nor one’s legitimacy.

Jacobsen: How has the “neutral zone” evolved over time?

Jørgensen: The expansion of the “neutral zone” between the West and the East, where a constant invasion, or rather a narrowing of territorial sovereignty based on one’s origins after World War II as it is hereby put forth, regards to the eastern part, and then the expansion of territorial sovereignty in pictorial sense, in a more recent historical perspective indisputably proven with reference to Western NATO alliance due presence.

Jacobsen: Putin is old. Is his health an issue?

Jørgensen: When it comes to age, one would say no, Putin’s age is not a decisive factor in this context.

Jacobsen: Is there a sense, by him, of wanting to make bold moves and a legacy through the invasion? Or is his concern more geostrategic, or both?

Jørgensen: Simply put, to speak of a person who was despairing of the weathering powerlessness that arose in the following days after the Cold War when the Iron Curtain fell. The dissolution of the Soviet Union, a disintegrating nation where total chaos reigned, no one would nor could respond when a desperate Putin asks for advice of his leaders; “what happens now?” A former KGB agent, who has his special field within spreading misinformation promoted for the desire to create fear and control by the few over the many.

A brilliant bureaucrat, where a rapid rise after the end of the Cold War, in which former President Boris Yeltsin at the very beginning of the 21st century, puts Putin as his appointed prime minister and further heir to the presidency at the very beginning of a new millennia. One now sees, at least in some way a clear comparison with the Nazi leader during World War II.

What can be speculated about now is, will we then see a similar demise likes the one we teach our children in schools regarding Hitlers last days in his private bunker or not, will history repeat itself or not once again…?

Jacobsen: What is the process, historically, of other nations being drawn into a wartime scenario, and then a bilateral conflict becoming regional if not global?

Jørgensen: Extensions of alliances, inaugurations of warlords, decisions by and for the incorporation of territorial sovereignty, where a “safe haven” of a supreme guardianship calls out to you. A confident big brother who takes care of the little man, whereby the suppressing duty for little brother is to do everything that big brother says he must do or else, similar to the whim of a madman.

This is a short, but all so true description of the Western alliance, and it does not improve in any way with reference to its eastern counterpart. This is what we (the people) must endure by our wants or not. So yes, the small ones are eaten up by the big ones, the powerful ones rule the impaled ones. Expansions have been made, are now being made, and will in the future be leading for world politics where give and take every day, controls the outcome for peacetime or not …

Jacobsen: Is this primarily a war in the economic sphere at this point?

Jørgensen: The economic implications that we all see and feel in our everyday lives are palpable. What leads in the future can quickly overshadow the financial consequences. As they are the first to emerge, and what is experienced the longest after the actual warfare is over in accordance with clean-up and all the humanitarian work in the aftermath.

Jacobsen: What about the current forms of war found online with digital technology, espionage, hacking, surveillance, and cyberwarfare in general? Have these been much of the conflict?

Jørgensen: Yes, based on Russia’s history of cyber warfare, manipulation, and attempts to gag neighboring states according of their rule of law, democracy, and freedom of speech regarding the general population both abroad and at home. So yes, this is a well-known tactic from the Russian government, historically as well as to current time conflict between Russia and Ukraine.

Jacobsen: How many countries, in varying degrees of democratic development, count as “democratic” globally compared to autocratic? I am aware of a march towards more democratic, secular, and Enlightenment views globally – unsure as to how much, though.

Jørgensen: The democratic index points in the direction of an expanded perspective, with a downward spiral for the autocratic forms of government. If you look at the index today, full democratically governed countries would be around 6.4% and countries with fully autocratic rule would then be around 37% but take these numbers with precaution as they can vary.

Jacobsen: How will, or are, Sino-Russian relations impacting the war? Has the Chinese Communist Party made any formal statements or motions regarding this war?

Jørgensen: The camaraderie between China and Russia is better than it has been for a long time, the border conflict that took place back in spring of -69, has today by no means no remnants of any lasting disputes between these two countries. So no, it does not mean that a consequence of that past tense historical conflict in any regards has been a major factor to calculate into the current wartime conflict between Russia and Ukraine. China and its position now have been all about keeping calm, looking at what is happening by observing the situation in anticipation of its outcome pro-con.

Jacobsen: Have there been any sympathetic statements by Western European leaders towards Putin, as in understanding the aggression against Ukrainian people and the annexation of Ukrainian territory?

Jørgensen: Believes and believes that most Western leaders dissociate themselves from what Putin has now messed up. A clear response in a statement of support for what is happening now, would be met with disgust by a united NATO alliance and a united European population led by the United States. My reply to the initial question is then clearly presented.

Footnotes

[1] Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8)[Online]. May 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, May 22). Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, May. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “ Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “ Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (May 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘ Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘ Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “ Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): May. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Western Europe, Russian Aggression, Putin, Zelensky, China, and India: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (8)[Internet]. (2022, May 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/Jørgensen-8.

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2022-05-22

Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 2,186

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Tianxi Yu (余天曦) is a Member of CatholIQ, Chinese Genius Directory, EsoterIQ Society, Nano Society, World Genius Directory. He discusses: growing up; family legacy; family background; experience with peers and schoolmates; certifications, qualifications, and trainings; purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence; geniuses; greatest geniuses; a genius from a profoundly intelligent person; profound intelligence; work experiences and jobs; particular job path; myths; the God concept; science; the tests taken and scores earned; the range of the scores; ethical philosophy; social philosophy; economic philosophy; political philosophy; worldview-encompassing philosophical system; ethical philosophy; meaning in life; various disciplines of family member; a particular area of medicine; digital currency theory; the two SCI papers; Japanese; time spent on each test on average; achieve in life; high creativity; “God” the first in a certain field; religion; Mahir Wu; mainstream intelligence tests; money; a life with meaning; pursue “all areas in different subjects”; medicine; proposed immortality; oxidative stress; anime; Comiket; hardest test; easiest test; imagination; attitudes, personally, about religion; the “beauty of logic”; a meaningful life; focus on meaning; immortality; finiteness of human life; the “spirit immortal”; “spirit immortal” seem convincing; an atheist; alternative tests; exhibits at Comiket; Death Numbers; “Death Numbers”; solved all items on Numerus Classic in one week; the first place; Death Numbers; developing numerical alternative tests; find a meaning in life; some of the kings/bosses; great achievements in the world; particular thinkers or philosophers from the West; particular thinkers or philosophers from the East; American President Trump; CCP Leader Xi Jinping; world leader who impresses; and money.

Keywords: China, intelligence, I.Q., Tianxi Yu.

Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*Interview conducted December 23, 2020 to December 31, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?

Tianxi Yu (余天曦)[1],[2]*: 1999/10/13. Nothing impressive.

Jacobsen: Have these stories helped provide a sense of an extended self or a sense of the family legacy?

Yu: No, all the experiences happened at the right time and place.

Jacobsen: What was the family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?

Yu: My family are all intellectuals, and they work in various fields. No other background.

Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and an adolescent?

Yu: Not very good, bad sometimes.

Jacobsen: What have been some professional certifications, qualifications, and trainings earned by you?

Yu: I don’t even have a college diploma hhh. I am a medical student, and studying electrowetting technology, digital currency theory and economics, biochemistry, physical medicine and so on. After I publish two SCI papers, I intend to study mathematics. I am also studying Japanese and intend to take the JLPT examination next year.

Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?

Yu: Having fun! I like to do intelligence tests when I’m resting. It’s relaxing for me. So I only do interesting tests.

Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?

Yu: A year and a half ago.

Yu: Maybe they didn’t meet other people’s expectations or come to different conclusions. The second situation is the opposite. I don’t dare to tell others that I have high IQ now, because I haven’t made corresponding achievements.

Jacobsen: Who seem like the greatest geniuses in history to you?

Yu: I don’t know.

Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?

Yu: Genius has high creativity, profoundly intelligent person has high understanding.

Jacobsen: Is profound intelligence necessary for genius?

Yu: No.

Jacobsen: What have been some work experiences and jobs held by you?

Yu: What experience can an undergraduate have…Can working in the laboratory be an experience?hhh

Jacobsen: Why pursue this particular job path?

Yu: For postgraduate.

Jacobsen: What are some of the more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses? Those myths that pervade the cultures of the world. What are those myths? What truths dispel them?

Yu: Gifted. I don’t know much about myths, and I don’t believe in them.

Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?

Yu: “God” for me is the first in a certain field, I am an atheist.

Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?

Yu: 100%.

Jacobsen: What have been some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations) for you?

Yu: Death Numbers, Mahir Wu,28/30,IQ 200 SD15

NISA128, Mahir Wu,121.5/128, IQ191.5 SD15

N-World, Mahir Wu, 48/48, IQ190 SD15

Numerus, Ivan Ivec, 29/30, IQ190 SD15

Jacobsen: What is the range of the scores for you? The scores earned on alternative intelligence tests tend to produce a wide smattering of data points rather than clusters, typically.

Yu: IQ180~200.

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Yu: Ethical philosophy that make me money.

Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Yu: Social philosophy that make me money

Jacobsen: What economic philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Yu: Economic philosophy that make me money.

Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Yu: Political philosophy that make me money.

Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Yu: Well provided.

Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?

Yu: Ethical philosophy that make me money.

Jacobsen: What provides meaning in life for you?

Yu: Living.

Jacobsen: What are some of the various disciplines of family member? Those places of work and/or study.

Yu: No family disciplines.

Jacobsen: Do you intend to specialize in a particular area of medicine?

Yu: I’m going to try all areas in different subjects.

Jacobsen: What areas of medicine most interest you?

Yu: Immortality.

Jacobsen: Why does digital currency theory interest you?

Yu: It’s the future.

Jacobsen: What will be the research in the two SCI papers?

Yu: Oxidative stress and digital currency, maybe.

Jacobsen: Why choose to study Japanese?

Yu: しゅみです, I like watching anime, going to Comiket.

Jacobsen: How much time do you spend on each test on average?

Yu: Depend on the authors and difficulties. Most tests take two or three days, and the most difficult tests may take about one year.

Jacobsen: What do you hope to achieve in life?

Yu: Have enough money.

Jacobsen: What factors make up the “high creativity” required for genius?

Yu: Imagination.

Jacobsen: How is “God” the first in a certain field?

Yu: Far exceed the second place.

Jacobsen: As an atheist, what reasons make the most sense of this?

Yu: Our country is not affected by religion.

Jacobsen: Why focus on Mahir Wu’s tests?

Yu: I think his test is the best in the world. He expressed the beauty of logic to a very high level. I didn’t find this in the tests of other well-known authors.

Jacobsen: Have you taken mainstream intelligence tests? For example, the WAIS, the Stanford-Binet, the RAPM, etc.

Yu: No, our country doesn’t advocate IQ, so we haven’t tested it in hospital. And the thinking depth of those tests are quite low. They don’t have deep thinking like high-range tests.

Jacobsen: Why care mostly about money regarding ethics, social philosophy, economics, and politics?

Yu: Economic base decides the superstructure.

Jacobsen: How do you intend to live a life with meaning?

Yu: Happiness is the core of a meaningful life.

Jacobsen: Why pursue “all areas in different subjects” rather than specialize?

Yu: Because I haven’t found the area I’m interested in.

Jacobsen: Why “immortality” regarding medicine?

Yu: Medical technology may make human body immortal

Jacobsen: What are some ways in which proposed immortality can be attained to you?

Yu: I can’t say this casually. As far as I know, many directions about immortality can’t be achieved at present. I understand “immortality” in three ways: the body immortal; do not need the body as a carrier, through physical means to achieve thought immortal; the spirit immortal.

Jacobsen: Why focus on oxidative stress?

Yu: I have no choice, I’m just an undergraduate. It’s not easy to find a tutor. I can only write whatever direction the tutor gives me.

Jacobsen: What anime do you like most?

Yu: 君の名は.

Jacobsen: What is Comiket?

Yu: Japan’s largest animate exhibition, コミケ.

Jacobsen: What was the hardest test taken to date?

Yu: Death Numbers by Mahir Wu, and it’s the best test I think.

Jacobsen: What was the easiest test taken to date?

Yu: Numerus Classic by Ivan Ivec. It took me one week to solve all items.

Jacobsen: Anything else other than “imagination”?

Yu: Yes, but it’s not worth mentioning under the imagination.

Jacobsen: Any attitudes, personally, about religion?

Yu: I agree, but I don’t accept. If I am the worshiped person of religioner, please forget my previous sentence hhh.

Jacobsen: Can you explain more the “beauty of logic”?

Yu: It’s hard to describe. Simply, it is the numbers beauty that reflected in the case of concise and rigorous logic. Take a simple example: 8127, 2187,1827,? (Mahir Wu’s question,got his permission).Many people’s first reaction is shift, but they can not get the correct answer. But through observation, we can find that: 81×27=2187，21×87=1827. From this we can get the answer. First, if you find this logic, you will be very sure of the answer, the logic is very rigorous and concise. Then, isn’t it beautiful that the numbers of product doesn’t change?

Jacobsen: What else is important for a meaningful life?

Yu: I don’t know. I haven’t found the meaning of life now.

Jacobsen: Why focus on meaning, as in a meaningful life?

Yu: I don’t know. It’s too difficult for me.

Jacobsen: What if medical technology fails in this immortality endeavour? Is it wasted time?

Yu: This process is enough for me to enjoy, even if I fail.

Jacobsen: Do you think the finiteness of human life gives it meaning?

Yu: I’m not the creator. I don’t know the specific answer, but you can think about it: is the life of bacteria meaningful?

Jacobsen: What do you mean by the “spirit immortal”?

Yu: Be remembered by the world.

Jacobsen: Does this “spirit immortal” seem convincing to you, or not?

Yu: Not.

Jacobsen: Doesn’t an atheist position, typically, mean only the first two options? The body immortality and not needing the body as a carrier.

Yu: The atheists that I understand is not believe in Christian God or Catholic Jesus, the unexplained God of science. What I mean is to do it in a scientific way. For example, quantum computers can be used to connect neural networks to carry human thoughts.

Jacobsen: Are the alternative tests a way to exercise the mind when it’s “not easy to find a tutor”?

Yu: You can think so.

Jacobsen: What exhibits at Comiket most interest you?

Yu: Buy my favorite painters’ works and my favourite anime’s unique souvenir.

Jacobsen: How long did Mahir Wu take to develop Death Numbers?

Yu: If you mean propaganda, in my impression, he didn’t deliberately do it.

Jacobsen: Why is it called “Death Numbers”?

Yu: Because it’s very difficult.

Jacobsen: What was the response from the high-range testing community when you solved all items on Numerus Classic in one week?

Yu: No much response. Because I didn’t show it off.

Jacobsen: I asked, “Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?” You said. “God” for me is the first in a certain field, I am an atheist.” I asked, “How is “God” the first in a certain field?” You said, “Far exceed the second place.” I asked, “As an atheist, what reasons make the most sense of this?” You said, “Our country is not affected by religion.” I asked, “Any attitudes, personally, about religion?” You said, “I agree, but I don’t accept. If I am the worshiped person of religioner, please forget my previous sentence.” Can you expand on the responses and meanings in those responses, please? What ties them together as an atheist?

Yu: I mean atheists don’t believe in virtual gods. I use the concept of God to refer to the first place. Besides “God”, I can also use other expressions to address the first place, such as “king”, “boss” and so on. It’s a tribute to those who have made great achievements in the real world.

Jacobsen: Logic manifested in complex symmetries seems beautiful to me, too. How long did Mahir Wu take to create Death Numbers?

Yu: He said he didn’t remember. NIT is the predecessor of DN, maybe one year?

Jacobsen: When did Mahir Wu begin developing numerical alternative tests?

Yu: He said from 2014, when he was in junior high school. From then on, he began to set tests.

Jacobsen: Do you think that you have to find a meaning in life, fundamentally? Is it necessary?

Yu: Yes, very necessary, otherwise it’s boring.

Jacobsen: Who do you consider some of the kings/bosses? Those who have “made great achievements in the real world.”

Yu: Chen-Ning Yang, Paul Seymour, etc.

Jacobsen: What great achievements in the world do you consider the greatest?

Yu: Let the world think I’m the greatest.

Jacobsen: Do any particular thinkers or philosophers from the West influence you?

Yu: When I was a child, I read some people’s books, such as Russell, Freud, Descartes and so on, but later I didn’t read them. After one’s own thoughts are established, the thoughts of others are meaningless.

Jacobsen: Do any particular thinkers or philosophers from the East influence you?

Yu: No, but I often do it in exams, such as Confucius, Lao-tzu, Zhuangzi and so on.To be honest, I was still interested in them at the beginning, but when I immersed in their tests, they made me disgusted.

Jacobsen: What do you think of American President Trump?

Yu: He is an undercover agent sent by the great People’s Republic of China. He has accomplished the task very well. I hope he will be re elected.doge

Jacobsen: What do you think of CCP Leader Xi Jinping?

Yu: He is a great president and will lead China’s Renaissance.

Jacobsen: What world leader impresses you?

Yu: Abraham Lincoln.

Jacobsen: How do you hope to make a lot of money?

Yu: Investment, stock speculation, writing papers to earn bonus, founding a company and so on, all of which I have been implementing.

Footnotes

[1] Member, CatholIQ; Member, Chinese Genius Directory; Member, EsoterIQ Society; Member, Nano Society; Member, World Genius Directory.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1)[Online]. May 2022; 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, May 22). Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A, May. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.A (May 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): May. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tianxi Yu (余天曦) on His Life, Scores, and Views: Member, Chinese Genius Directory (1)[Internet]. (2022, May 30(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/yu-1.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links May be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-05-22

Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.A, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,477

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) is a Member of the Mega Society based on a qualifying score on the Mega Test (before 1995) prior to the compromise of the Mega Test and Co-Editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. In self-description, May states: “Not even forgotten in the cosmic microwave background (CMB), I’m an Amish yuppie, born near the rarified regions of Laputa, then and often, above suburban Boston. I’ve done occasional consulting and frequent Sisyphean shlepping. Kafka and Munch have been my therapists and allies. Occasionally I’ve strived to descend from the mists to attain the mythic orientation known as having one’s feet upon the Earth. An ailurophile and a cerebrotonic ectomorph, I write for beings which do not, and never will, exist — writings for no one. I’ve been awarded an M.A. degree, mirabile dictu, in the humanities/philosophy, and U.S. patent for a board game of possible interest to extraterrestrials. I’m a member of the Mega Society, the Omega Society and formerly of Mensa. I’m the founder of the Exa Society, the transfinite Aleph-3 Society and of the renowned Laputans Manqué. I’m a biographee in Who’s Who in the Brane World. My interests include the realization of the idea of humans as incomplete beings with the capacity to complete their own evolution by effecting a change in their being and consciousness. In a moment of presence to myself in inner silence, when I see Richard May’s non-being, ‘I’ am. You can meet me if you go to an empty room.” Some other resources include Stains Upon the Silence: something for no one, McGinnis Genealogy of Crown Point, New York: Hiram Porter McGinnis, Swines List, Solipsist Soliloquies, Board Game, Lulu blog, Memoir of a Non-Irish Non-Jew, and May-Tzu’s posterous. He discusses: “Fragments”; “Yaldabaoth is Dead”; “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”; “Event Horizon”; and “Klein-bottle Clock.”

Keywords: C.G. Jung, G.I. Gurdjieff, God, May-Tzu, Nietzsche, P.D. Ouspensky, Richard May, Rupert Sheldrake, Seth Lloyd.

Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Hi! Okay, we’re back-ish. “Fragments” is a complex piece, though brief. In “dances dreams of the dead,” I imagine the dead being nothing, with nothing to dance to or about, and so stillness and emptiness of the ‘howling’ void as the dreams danced about the dead. What are you really getting at there?

Richard May[1],[2]*: ROFL! This little writing epitomizes some of my misunderstandings of G.I. Gurdjieff’s cosmology.

Jacobsen: What is the “devouring moon”?

May: LOL! Gurdjieff said that we were “food for the moon.” Go figure.

Jacobsen: There was an old 20th century science fiction author who tried to speak to a universe with conscious suns and such. I forget the name off the top of my mind. However, the term “star mind” brings this to – ahem – light for me. Is this, in any way, an allusion to this author?

May: no Read some of Rupert Sheldrake’s works for discussion of possible star minds and galactic minds. Some of Dr. Sheldrake’s material has been banned from TedTalks. He must have a dangerous mind, I suppose.

Jacobsen: Do you know those videos or images of the light from the Sun reflecting less off the Moon as the Moon becomes darker, as the line of light recedes from its surface? The star mind devouring the Orphean strains of the devouring moon with the soul-eyed shadows reminds me of these. The “Endless sun” cycles over billions of years off the surface of the moonscape, the ‘food.’ Throw me a bone because I’m howling at the Moon!

May: The “Endless sun” is a reference to ‘God’ at one of the levels physicality in the cosmos and levels of symbolism. The sun has symbolized God in virtually every culture, as psychologist C.G. Jung has noted. This surreal little writing is based up my misunderstanding of the cosmology of G. I. Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff taught that what he meant literally was taken as an allegory and what he taught as allegory was taken literally. It gets a bit confusing. Some of what he taught is preposterous, e.g., that the moon is going to become another sun. But maybe preposterous was sometimes the point. E.g., “Believe nothing not even yourself.” — G.I. Gurdjieff

Jacobsen: Why title this “Fragments”?

May: The original title of P. D. Ouspensky’s book In Search for the Miraculous was Fragments of an Unknown Teaching. The publisher preferred the former. Ouspensky, Gurdjieff’s foremost pupil, thought that he did not posses the complete teaching and/or that it was not entirely extant and the teaching was at least to him partially unknown. I repeat, he was Gurdjieff’s foremost pupil.

Jacobsen: “Yaldabaoth is Dead” opens with the line of perpetual unknowability of our ‘inner’ and ‘outer.’ Any statements on the great unknown inner and outer worlds?

May: This little writing is my rendering of the Lord’s Prayer. It begins, perhaps somewhat unconventionally, with Nietzsche’s “God is dead,” using one of the Gnostic names for the God of the Bible, i.e., the Demiurge, a sort of unintelligent, blundering Cosmic Builder.

Jacobsen: Also, “Our Unknown” is not “our unknown,” which seems more accurate. It’s a subtle and important distinction on “Yaldabaoth is Dead.” What is the “Unnameable” set apart from here? (Where is “here,” Scott? I don’t know anymore; I know nothing.)

May: “Our Unknown” is ‘God.’ “The Unnameable” is ‘God’. I think “set apart” is the original meaning of “sacred” in Hebrew.

Jacobsen: “Presence” is, as the others, capitalized, while in the context of “here and now.” The now seems like an interesting one to me. You’re, obviously, a scientifically literate and intelligent person and utilize scientific know-how in the context of poetic statements, where space and time are space-time. “Presence” is “here and now,” in the here-now, ya dig? Are you consciously making these distinctions, or is this more automated based on the rich background in reading about modern physics?

May: Presence is capitalized at the beginning of an almost sentence. I’m not conscious of what is done by me consciously and what unconsciously. I’m rather ignorant of modern physics.

Jacobsen: “As above, so below” is a famous statement, and the “doing” in lower and higher reflects this for me. Do you see a relation between these ideas in “Yaldabaoth is Dead” and the phrase from Hermeticism?

May: Yes, sure, a relationship, but also a rendering of “on Earth as it is in Heaven.”

Jacobsen: What is “transubstantial food”? Is it the insubstantial Catholic form of “transubstantial”?

May: Oh, I don’t know, maybe impressions of something higher than my own illusory-ego identity. I don’t know enough about Catholic dogmas to answer.

Jacobsen: Forgiveness is important. What’s been an important moment of forgiveness in life for you?

May: I forgive you for asking these questions. I forgive entropy and gravitation, for existing. I forgive ‘God’ for sinning against me and my family. I forgive Mother and Father for being f*cked-up human beings, like everyone else. — But can I forgive myself for not forgiving?

Jacobsen: I love the last two lines, quoting you:

And led not into distraction,

but delivered from sleep.

Can you forgive me for being distractible and falling asleep before sending more questions to you, until the next morning, please?

May: Yes, certainly, I can. But you will probably burn in the Hell of the Loving Father for Eternity or at least for the duration of one commercial break.

Jacobsen: “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!” has a title almost as long as the content. Bravo! It speaks, to me, to the limits of self-knowledge from recollection, reflections, even contemplative practices. We’re a mystery to ourselves, ultimately. Why does one’s existence preclude publicity of knowledge to oneself and the conveyance of this to others?

May: I first wrote this as irony. What can you take personally, if not your life? Then I realized that it also perfectly embodied certain esoteric ideas; We are food in a cosmic food chain. We may have a purpose in the cosmos that transcends our illusory ego-identity.

Jacobsen: “Event Horizon” plays with terms referencing past and present, and future, and the references to the past and the future. We hope for the future. Yet, the hopes are placed in the past in it. We have a present, “Now,” and it’s placed “too far in the future.” Time’s an illusion, a persistent one; I have it on good authority. Anyhow, is this your physics seeping into the poetry once more, my friend?

May: MIT physicist Seth Loyd thinks that retro-causality from the future to the present can occur and that the past can be changed, I think. But we are rarely present here and now. Now is an imagined future state, ironically. But there is also sarcasm. As ordinarily conceived, we cannot have hope for the past. So how can we have hope for the present? … So this combines ‘physics’, esotericism, and sarcasm. It’s very straight forward.

But actually Event Horizon is the brand name of a delicious high gravity beer!

Jacobsen: “Klein-bottle Clock” is surrealistic, certainly. How many cups of coffee can you make with these eternity-measuring coffee spoons in a tablespoon, even a teaspoon?

May: This writing was inspired by a certain illustrious member of the higher-IQ community who was among those interviewed by a certain well-known publication. When asked what he was doing, he said among other things that he was building an “inside-out clock.”

Doubtless because I have a warped, non-Euclidean mind, this struck me as ridiculous. So as not to be outdone I wrote “Klein-bottle Clock.” The outside of such a clock would be identical with its inside!

Jacobsen: You quote Arthur Schopenhauer in relation to time as one’s life-time and eternity as one’s immortality, which presumes an embedded identity in eternity living out ‘simultaneously’ in the time of one’s life. So, how many coffee cups can you get from this?

May: Not even one at Starbucks.

Jacobsen: How is identity embedded in eternality and terminality?

May: Beats me! Ordinary psychology explains at least to a degree the the origin of our illusory egoic identities. The psychology of Buddhist philosophy and that of G.I. Gurdjieff also deal with this. I doubt that what we regard as our identity is preserved eternally.

Jacobsen: What kind of infinity is eternity?

May: No kind. Eternity is not an infinity, it is not infinite time. Eternity is the condition of being outside of time, e.g., the present moment.

Jacobsen: What kind of finite is a lifetime?

May: The Buddha compare a human lifetime to the duration of a flash of lightening.

Jacobsen: Have you had any difficulties measuring out a mornings cup o’ joe in a lifetime measurement using an eternal coffee spoon? Or is the embedment making it easy to just, you know, reduce the quantification of the grounds in the eternal coffee spoon?

May: Sorry, I don’t understand the question.

Footnotes

[1] Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society.”

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 22, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10)[Online]. May 2022; 29(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, May 22). Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 29.A, May. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “ Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 29.A. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “ Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 29.A (May 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘ Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 29.A. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘ Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 29.A., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “ Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 29.A (2022): May. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10)[Internet]. (2022, May 29(A). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/may-10.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-05-15

Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3)

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.D, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 1,464

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Chris Cole is a longstanding member of the Mega Society. Richard May is a longstanding member of the Mega Society and Co-Editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. Rick Rosner is a longstanding member of the Mega Society and a former editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. They discuss: fraudulent activity; messianic posing; criminal behaviour; the three interpenetrating cubes problem; above 4 standard deviations above the norm; the hardest IQ test; and IQ.

Keywords: Chris Cole, IQ, Richard May, Richard Rosner, Mega Society, Mega Test, Titan Test.

Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3)

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*Rosner section transcribed from audio.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What would you define as fraudulent activity in a high-IQ community or an individual?

Rick Rosner[1]*: Making claims that you know aren’t supported by your performance on tests.

Chris Cole[2]*: Fraud takes many forms just as it does in common law. Because of the Internet, tests with fixed questions are particularly vulnerable to cheating.

Richard May[3],[4]*: I have nothing to add.

Jacobsen: What would you define as messianic posing in a similar regard?

Rosner: If you end up with a cult, that’s messianic posing.

Cole: The common language definition of messianic behavior will serve.

May: I have nothing to add.

Jacobsen: Similarly, what about criminal behaviour?

Rosner: If you end up in jail for the rest of your life, if the FBI has a thick dossier on you because you are considered a potential threat in certain ways, that’s criminal behaviour. The FBI has dossiers on lots of people because, historically, the FBI has done good things and asshole things.

So, if they have a dossier on you, because you’re a legitimate psycho who has the potential to do bodily harm to people for some weird political reason, then there you go.

Cole: Again I have nothing to add here to the common language definition of criminal behavior.

May: I have nothing to add.

Jacobsen: On the Mega Test, why was the three interpenetrating cubes problem seen as the most difficult?

Rosner: It is widely agreed that the three interpenetrating cubes problem was the hardest problem on the test. So, the problem that is agreed upon as likely being the correct answer has not, as far as I know, been proven to be the correct answer.

Interestingly, you can look it up. It depends on what shit is online. But at various times since the ‘90s, it has been agreed upon that the correct answer is floating out there. But you can’t be sure that you’ve found the consensus correct answer.

But the figure, the geometric figure, that corresponds to the consensus correct answer can be found in popular culture, but I won’t tell you where.

Cole: It’s the only problem on the test where the answer that Ron accepts has not been proven. There are a few of these on the Titan.

May: It was the certainly most difficult, but my spatial ability is not sufficiently high to understand why this is so.

Jacobsen: Above 4 standard deviations above the norm, why should there be more scrutiny more than any other cutoff?

Rosner: Isn’t there some claim that “extraordinary claims require extraordinary evidence”? You could argue that because claiming to have one of the world’s highest IQs gets you more than claiming to have a 120 IQ.

In practical terms, not so often, it can get you on a quiz show. It can get you on the cover of Esquire magazine. It can get you interviewed. It can get you on TV. It kind of got me laid once. I was going to get laid anyway. But it was part of that package that got me laid, I guess.

Cole: A credible high range score requires credible high range test questions, which are hard to formulate and norm.

May: I have nothing to add.

Jacobsen: What was the hardest IQ test you’ve ever taken in the high-range? What lesson can be learned for test-makers from this?

Rosner: I say that I’ve had a lot of success, but I’d say that I’ve had the most difficulty with Cooijmans’ tests. Because he brings in stuff from a lot of areas. I don’t want to say too much about his tests because he doesn’t want people talking about his tests and helping other people.

But by the time the Mega Test had been published in Omni, it had been through a number of revisions with hinky problems getting knocked out or revised until they were clear and bullet-proof. The answers were tight. I think Cooijmans talks about the pleasure of when an answer clicks into place. That click of satisfaction of when you know you found the answer.

I would say that on some of Cooijmans’ problems. The click is, maybe, not as loud as on some Hoeflin problems. On Cooijmans’ problems, you can find some really good answers that aren’t as good as the intended answer. That’s, maybe, the mark of one type of really good ultra-high-IQ test.

That there are stopping points. On multiple choice tests, those are called distractors. There are answers among the choices that seem right for various reasons if you’re taking desperate stabs at an answer.

On high-IQ tests, you can come up with answers that make a lot of sense. But do they make as much sense as the intended answer? No. But you’ve fallen for an inferior answer. On tough tests, a lot of problems on hard tests are finding the signal among the noise.

I’m writing a book in which somebody or the recipient of what he thinks is a coded message, thinks that it is a true message because it is based on the first letters of four consecutive sentences. That spell out a word.

The odds that this would happen by chance are 26 to the 6^th power, which is 676 squared, which is 400,000 to 1. Then you have to knock that down because there are a zillion four-letter words. So, anyway, the odds are tens of thousands to one that it’s not a coded message, especially since it is specific to the character situation.

So, the character reasons that it is likely a true signal. And on a tough IQ problem, you’d like the numerical coincidences to have an unlikelihood of, at least, 1 in a 1,000. When you look at a number sequence, you see a pattern. Then you say, “What are the odds that this pattern would arise by chance?”

On some super-hard IQ problems, there are more than one pattern to be found. Again, you have to ask yourself, “Was this intentional or accidental?” A tough-ass IQ problem really pushes the limit in finding the signal among the noise.

Cole: The only high range test I took was the Mega.

May: The Mega Test and the L.A.I.T. are the only high range tests I’ve ever taken.
I did not distinguish myself on the latter.

Jacobsen: Is IQ declining in importance now?

Rosner: IQ as IQ is declining in importance because it is a product of the middle of the 20^th century when people really believed in it and used it to skip kids a grade, or not, to put them in gifted classes, get admission to magnet schools.

At some point, probably in the ‘50s, you might be able to get laid by your IQ. Since debunked, it has a greasy feeling about it, weirdo, creepazoid. The Cal. State schools, today, decided to get rid of the ACT and SAT altogether and the SAT is an IQ surrogate.

They decided it is not helpful, not worth the shit people go through to prepare for the tests. We can see enough about a student without some IQ surrogate in their admission packet. I’d say intelligence is increasing in importance because we are tiptoeing up to artificial intelligence.

That when we talk about AI – and AI is a misnomer right now; AI means “machine learning.” Eventually, AI will mean “Artificial Intelligence.” We will need ways to mathematicize and to come up with metrics of the power of thought in brains and in other stuff.

So, old school IQ declining; new school AI shit increasing.

Cole: IQ seems to be about as important now as it was when I was young. The SAT has some problems because it has become easy to improve a score via tutoring, but that is being addressed.

May: There is a theoretical possibility that Nature, specifically natural selection might not be entirely “politically correct.” Theoretically there could be differences among human groups that evolved under different conditions. E.g., If only females could bear children, then males would be the expendable ‘gender’. A small number of healthy males could impregnate a large number of females and the group would survive. A large number of males, if males did not bear children, and a small number of females would not allow the group to survive. Hence, there could be more variability among males, including cognitive variability, because males would be more expendable, than among females, i.e., there would be more male ‘geniuses’ and more male idiots.

Fortunately we now realize that there are no biological differences between males and females. Gender is a purely social construct. We now realize that men can menstruate and have babies too, if given a chance. The only important differences are among large numbers of pronouns, all referring to identical nouns.

Footnotes

[1] According to some semi-reputable sources gathered in a listing here, Rick G. Rosner may have among America’s, North America’s, and the world’s highest measured IQs at or above 190 (S.D. 15)/196 (S.D. 16) based on several high range test performances created by Christopher Harding, Jason Betts, Paul Cooijmans, and Ronald Hoeflin. He earned 12 years of college credit in less than a year and graduated with the equivalent of 8 majors. He has received 8 Writers Guild Awards and Emmy nominations, and was titled 2013 North American Genius of the Year by The World Genius Directory with the main “Genius” listing here.

He has written for Remote Control, Crank Yankers, The Man Show, The Emmys, The Grammys, and Jimmy Kimmel Live!. He worked as a bouncer, a nude art model, a roller-skating waiter, and a stripper. In a television commercial, Domino’s Pizza named him the “World’s Smartest Man.” The commercial was taken off the air after Subway sandwiches issued a cease-and-desist. He was named “Best Bouncer” in the Denver Area, Colorado, by Westwood Magazine.

Rosner spent much of the late Disco Era as an undercover high school student. In addition, he spent 25 years as a bar bouncer and American fake ID-catcher, and 25+ years as a stripper, and nearly 30 years as a writer for more than 2,500 hours of network television. Errol Morris featured Rosner in the interview series entitled First Person, where some of this history was covered by Morris. He came in second, or lost, on Jeopardy!, sued Who Wants to Be a Millionaire? over a flawed question and lost the lawsuit. He won one game and lost one game on Are You Smarter Than a Drunk Person? (He was drunk). Finally, he spent 37+ years working on a time-invariant variation of the Big Bang Theory.

Currently, Rosner sits tweeting in a bathrobe (winter) or a towel (summer). He lives in Los Angeles, California with his wife, dog, and goldfish. He and his wife have a daughter. You can send him money or questions at LanceVersusRick@Gmail.Com, or a direct message via Twitter, or find him on LinkedIn, or see him on YouTube.

[2] Chris Cole is a longstanding member of the Mega Society.

[3] Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) is a Member of the Mega Society based on a qualifying score on the Mega Test (before 1995) prior to the compromise of the Mega Test and Co-Editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. In self-description, May states: “Not even forgotten in the cosmic microwave background (CMB), I’m an Amish yuppie, born near the rarified regions of Laputa, then and often, above suburban Boston. I’ve done occasional consulting and frequent Sisyphean shlepping. Kafka and Munch have been my therapists and allies. Occasionally I’ve strived to descend from the mists to attain the mythic orientation known as having one’s feet upon the Earth. An ailurophile and a cerebrotonic ectomorph, I write for beings which do not, and never will, exist — writings for no one. I’ve been awarded an M.A. degree, mirabile dictu, in the humanities/philosophy, and U.S. patent for a board game of possible interest to extraterrestrials. I’m a member of the Mega Society, the Omega Society and formerly of Mensa. I’m the founder of the Exa Society, the transfinite Aleph-3 Society and of the renowned Laputans Manqué. I’m a biographee in Who’s Who in the Brane World. My interests include the realization of the idea of humans as incomplete beings with the capacity to complete their own evolution by effecting a change in their being and consciousness. In a moment of presence to myself in inner silence, when I see Richard May’s non-being, ‘I’ am. You can meet me if you go to an empty room.” Some other resources include Stains Upon the Silence: something for no one, McGinnis Genealogy of Crown Point, New York: Hiram Porter McGinnis, Swines List, Solipsist Soliloquies, Board Game, Lulu blog, Memoir of a Non-Irish Non-Jew, and May-Tzu’s posterous.

[4] Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightjournal.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3)[Online]. May 2022; 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, May 15). Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D, May. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “ Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “ Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.D (May 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘ Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘ Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.D., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “ Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.D (2022): May. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (3)[Internet]. (2022, May 30(D). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-3.

License

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, and In-Sight Publishing and In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and can disseminate for their independent purposes.

2022-05-15

The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians

Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Numbering: Issue 30.E, Idea: Outliers & Outsiders (25)

Place of Publication: Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Title: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2022

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022

Name of Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Frequency: Three Times Per Year

Words: 3,056

ISSN 2369-6885

Abstract

Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI is an Ivy League academic physician and scientist at the University of Pennsylvania. He is a member of the Mega Society, the OlympIQ Society and past member of the Prometheus Society. He is the designer of the cryptic Mega Society logo. He is member of several scientific societies and a Fellow of the American College of Radiology and of the American Heart Association. He is the co-Founder of the Arrhythmia Imaging Research (AIR) lab at Penn. His research is funded by the National Institute of Health. He is an international leader in three different fields: cardiovascular imaging, artificial intelligence and cybersecurity. He discusses: the poor working treatment of physicians in the United States; exposing the treatment of physicians; the biggest inroads in sheer viewership or consumption; productions; other proposals at every medical center hypothesized to help with the issue of overwork; the simple and obvious solution; working 36 hours in one period; working 90-100 hours in a week; the social life of the physicians; cruelty; patients kill their physicians; the level of burn out; some of the more egregious examples of (mis-)treatment of physicians; deceased or now-disabled colleagues; human rights violations; International Labour Organization; common statements from physicians; humane working conditions; and the future of the American healthcare system.

Keywords: American, Benoit Desjardins, death, Medicine, physicians, science, United States, working conditions.

The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians

*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*

*This interview represents Dr. Desjardins’ opinion, combined to the current content of the published medical literature, and not necessarily the opinion of his employers.*

On the work conditions of U.S. physicians

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was the earliest known, to you, exposure to the poor working treatment of physicians in the United States?

Dr. Benoit Desjardins[1],[2]*: I realized it as soon as I started my training in the U.S. when I was forced to work 68h without sleep. I had been on call at the hospital two nights in a row, had worked 58 consecutive hours without rest, and was driving back home. As I crashed into my bed, I received a phone call from my chief resident asking me why I was not at the hospital as I was on call again for a third night in a row. I was unaware of it and explained the situation. He ordered me to get back to work. I drove back exhausted to the hospital and could have easily been killed in a car accident. I worked ten additional consecutive hours until I crashed on the call room floor. They found me unconscious later that morning. It was my first exposure to the poor working conditions of U.S. physicians.

Jacobsen: Who have been the most vocal people about exposing the treatment of physicians from 50 years ago to 10 years ago?

Jacobsen: Of various productions about the issue, what ones seem to have made the biggest inroads in sheer viewership or consumption?

Jacobsen: There will be variations on a theme with the presentation of the same legitimate complaint of overwork and poor working conditions for U.S. physicians. However, some will ‘get’ it more. In that, they’ll hit the message and the reality, correctly. Which productions have been the most incisive and factually accurate?

Jacobsen: What are other proposals at every medical center hypothesized to help with the issue of overwork akin to yoga mats?

Jacobsen: Have any tried the simple and obvious solution by taking issue with the prefix “over-” in “overwork” to deal with overwork of physicians?

Jacobsen: If working 36 hours in one period, what are the impacts, known in medicine and psychology, on the human brain?

Jacobsen: If working 90-100 hours in one week, what are the impacts, known in medicine and psychology, on the human body?

Jacobsen: Obviously, when everyone is stressed out and overworked in, sometimes, life-and-death circumstances, it is difficult to make an argument for consistent civility and reasonable social engagement. How do these working conditions – and work expectations – impact the social life of the physicians amongst one another, and the physician-to-patient interaction?

Jacobsen: Something easily wading beneath the surface here: Cruelty. People aren’t going to behave nicely, sometimes, in high-stress environments, where their life and livelihood are under question, including the health care worker. Although, it’s asymmetrical on oath alone.

Physicians take the Hippocratic Oath; the general public’s patients don’t. Also, a larger aspect is institutions. How were physician friends killed in the midst of maltreatment due to working conditions in medical institutions? How have physician friends been permanently disabled due to the work conditions?

Jacobsen: How many patients kill their physicians every year in the United States? How does this compare to other countries with metrics if any?

Jacobsen: What are some of the more egregious examples of (mis-)treatment of physicians?

Jacobsen: When speaking of your deceased or now-disabled colleagues, what happens to a body as parts of it simply shut down, especially in, basically, peak health years, e.g., the 30s?

Jacobsen: For the UDHR, what human rights violations are discussed the most in the literature?

Jacobsen: What are common statements from physicians about the working conditions? The emotional and psychological states rather than the facts and figures of the situation from colleagues who have survived, and continue survive, the insufferable work environment expectations.

Jacobsen: Have American physicians simply left states to other states, even to other countries for humane working conditions?

Desjardins: Definitely. Physicians frequently move out of state because of working conditions. In some departments, large portions of several divisions leave en masse to practice elsewhere or abandon their medical career. Most would like to move out of the U.S. into countries with better working conditions for physicians, such as Canada, the U.K., or European Union countries, but immigration and licensure issues prevent them from moving abroad.

Jacobsen: What does this bode for the future of the American healthcare system?

Desjardins: The American healthcare system is collapsing. A massive shortage of healthcare workers is rapidly worsening, made even worse by the treatment of U.S. healthcare workers during the recent pandemic. The three-year probation time recently imposed by a judge on a massively overworked nurse for a fatal mistake will likely have a massive negative impact. These factors decrease the interest of foreign healthcare workers to move to the U.S., reduce the appeal of Americans to enter the medical field and make healthcare workers retire earlier. They have caused the development of healthcare deserts in 80% of the counties in the U.S., which lack access to the medical workforce, hospitals, or pharmacies. The present situation is bleak, but the future will be even more dismal.

Footnotes

[1] Academic Physician; Member, OlympIQ Society; Member, Mega Society.

[2] Individual Publication Date: May 15, 2022: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2; Full Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2022: https://in-sightpublishing.com/insight-issues/.

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA): Jacobsen S. The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians[Online]. May 2022; 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2.

American Psychological Association (APA, 6th Edition, 2010): Jacobsen, S.D. (2022, May 15). The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians. Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2.

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E, May. 2022. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2>.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E. http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2.

Chicago/Turabian, Humanities (16th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal. 30.E (May 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E. Available from: <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2>.

Harvard, Australian: Jacobsen, S. 2022, ‘The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 30.E., http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 7th Edition, 2009): Scott D. Jacobsen. “The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 30.A (2022): May. 2022. Web. <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2>.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The American Medical System and Physicians 2: Professor Benoit Desjardins, MD, PhD, FAHA, FACR, FNASCI on the Poor Working Conditions for American Physicians[Internet]. (2022, May 30(E). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/american-medicine-2.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

2022-05-15

Joyce Arthur on New Reproductive Rights Updates in Canada

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/01/10

Joyce Arthur is the Founder and Executive Director of the Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada. She has been an abortion rights and pro-choice activist since 1998. Arthur worked for 10 years running the Pro-Choice Action Network. In addition to these accomplishments, she founded FIRST or the first national feminist group advocating for the rights of sex workers and the decriminalization prostitution in Canada. Here we look into recent updates in Canada regarding reproductive rights.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are the current risks to reproductive rights in Canadian society at the moment? Primarily, I presume legal and social attitudes are the main ‘thumbs’ to keep tabs on the pulse of the cultural moment.

Joyce Arthur: The legal right to abortion is safe in Canada, at least for now. Even a future Conservative government would be unlikely to challenge that. But we see from the example of the U.S. and other increasingly autocratic countries around the world, that we can never take our rights for granted. Right-wing forces are ever-present and determined, and they don’t care about truth, evidence, rule of law, or human rights. Once those values are jettisoned, democracy is lost and we could easily find ourselves in the Handmaid’s Tale. Let’s hope that the global lurch to authoritarianism can be contained before it gets worse!

In our current reality, the main reproductive justice issues in Canada we still need to work on are improving access to abortion and sexual healthcare, especially for marginalized and rural populations, and destigmatizing abortion and reducing misinformation. Access is generally more difficult in smaller and more conservative provinces. New Brunswick is still in violation of the Canada Health Act by enforcing a regulation that denies funding for surgical abortions at Clinic 554. And the anti-choice movement is very active at reinforcing stigma and spreading false propaganda.

Jacobsen: What have been setbacks to reproductive rights activism?

Arthur: I think reproductive rights activism has been very strong in Canada, with no setbacks. Since 1988, it’s mostly been a string of victories – legal, social, political. The reproductive justice movement in Canada is vibrant, diverse, and determined. They have stood up strongly against past threats to reproductive rights, pretty much defeated them all, and I’m confident that will continue. A recent example happened in June 2021 – it was discovered that the University of Saskatchewan’s College of Medicine was sending medical students to a local anti-choice “crisis pregnancy centre” for practicums. Public outrage, grassroots activism, and pressure from the Gender Engagement Medical group at USask resulted in the College of Medicine ending their association with the CPC.

That’s not to say things are perfect or the anti-choice movement never wins, despite our advocacy. For example, I used to be able to say that the anti-choice movement has never won a court case in Canada in over 30 years, but that’s no longer the case. They recently prevailed in two cases in Alberta – a 2020 case allowing anti-choice events on University of Alberta campuses, and a 2021 case allowing inaccurate anti-choice advertising on buses in Lethbridge. But other similar bus advertising cases are pending (in Guelph and Hamilton) and we hope to prevail.

Jacobsen: Politician Sam Oosterhoff is an interesting case. What have been the ‘highlights’ of the political career for the young man, regarding reproductive rights, so far?

Arthur: On a personal note, Sam Oosterhoff was raised in the same fundamentalist church as me (Canadian Reformed). While I left the church and became an atheist, he became more radicalized. Or maybe he’s just an example of a young privileged white man who’s never had to think about the realities of life for women and gender minorities.

I invite readers to check out my March 2021 article at Rabble.ca, which goes into detail on all the lowlights (not highlights!) of Oosterhoff’s career against human rights and women’s rights. As I wrote in the piece, he’s an example of how open misogyny is still acceptable in the Ontario Conservative party. In 2019, Ontario NDP Leader Andrea Horwath reacted to Oosterhoff by saying: “We are horrified that Doug Ford continues to refuse to denounce his MPP’s dangerous, anti-choice and anti-women position.”

Jacobsen: Which politicians, without regard for party label, have made the greatest impression upon you? Those individuals who simply agree with and act out a political trail of equal rights.

Arthur: They have almost all been NDP politicians. Some Liberal politicians do the talk, but not the walk – or maybe just baby steps until being stopped at the next election call. Some past and current NDP politicians I respect and have worked with – people who really care about advancing human rights and equality – include Svend Robinson, Libby Davies, Lyndsay Mathyssen, Don Davies, and Niki Ashton. On the Liberal side, I admire Chrystia Freeland and would love to meet her someday. Even Justin despite his flaws! At least he speaks up for reproductive rights, which other leaders rarely do.

Jacobsen: What other social figures have been creating havoc for the women’s rights landscape?

Arthur: There’s many anti-choice groups and individuals out there, but three groups come to mind that are trying quite hard to attack and undermine human rights – the Canadian Centre for Bio-Ethical Reform (CCBR), the Association for Reformed Political Action Canada (ARPA), and Right Now.

The CCBR inflicts much harm and upset onto communities via their display and distribution of graphic images of aborted fetuses. ARPA Canada tries to influence government policy and law with Christian and Biblical values. Their legal work is mostly targeted at protecting right-wing interpretations of freedom of expression and religion. RightNow works to get anti-choice politicians elected with the hope they will pass laws against abortion. They’ve been successful at getting several politicians elected, including Erin O’Toole as Conservative Party leader.

Notably, Erin O’Toole claims to be pro-choice, but Abortion Rights Coalition of Canada has listed him as anti-choice since 2016 because he voted in favour of an anti-choice bill. During the Sept 2021 election campaign, I wrote about how O’Toole is still not pro-choice.

Another politician to highlight is Leslyn Lewis, who narrowly lost the federal Conservative Party leadership contest in 2020 despite her extremist anti-choice views. But she won a seat in the 2021 election as MP for Haldimand–Norfolk in Ontario. Her latest campaign is to stop the government from revoking the charitable status of anti-choice groups, even though the Liberal promise was only to decline new applications from anti-choice groups, not revoke existing ones. A few other anti-choice hardliners in the Conservative Party include Cathay Wagantall who has introduced two anti-choice private member bills since 2016, as well as Garnett Genuis, Rachael Harder, Cheryl Gallant, and Arnold Viersen.

Jacobsen: What have been the major inroads for equal reproductive rights in the last couple of years in Canada?

Arthur: The pandemic has brought challenges but also opportunities. The biggest has been a major switch to telemedicine abortion. Most people in Canada can now have a phone call or video call with a provider to get a prescription for abortion pills, which they can then fill at their local pharmacy for free. That has been a real game changer. Telemedicine care must continue to expand because Canada is a huge country and people in rural areas and the North have major barriers in accessing care otherwise. Of course, the pandemic has created many hardships too, primarily difficulties with travelling, including to the U.S. for later abortions.

You asked about the last couple of years, but ARCC produced lists of “Pro-choice Victories” that occurred in 2018 and 2019. We paused because of the pandemic but hope to publish another list for 2022!

Jacobsen: How did the 2016-2021 period in the United States change the discourse for Canadian reproductive rights law?

Arthur: It certainly created fear, in terms of what might happen in Canada. When Trump was first elected in 2016, ARCC’s website crashed because so many Americans were worried about abortion access and if they could come to Canada.

But the issue became especially relevant when Alabama passed its 6-week ban in May 2019 (that law was blocked and is still not in force) and when Texas started enforcing a similar ban in September 2021 – with the added feature of outsourcing enforcement to bounty hunters. In both cases, the global media coverage resulted in a huge public outcry with protests, including in Canada, and much alarm over whether our rights were at risk in Canada too. I believe they are not because the political dynamics and systems in the U.S. and Canada are so different.

For example, the U.S. is demographically much more religious and right-wing than Canada. Another aspect is that provinces don’t have the jurisdiction to pass laws to restrict abortions in the way that many U.S. states have, while our federal parties take a hands-off approach to legislating on abortion. But we must always remain vigilant.

Jacobsen: What options exist now for people who need to access abortion or sexual healthcare? What associations, societies, and organizations can give options to people who happen to scroll across this – for themselves, friends, or colleagues?

Arthur: There’s several good resources people can check:

ARCC’s list of abortion services and supports
Action Canada’s list of abortion and sexual health services
Choice Connect – an online app that connects people to their nearest abortion provider
Action Canada’s national helpline and fund: 1-888-642-2725
National Abortion Federation’s helpline and fund: 1-800-772-9100

Jacobsen: Are there any pieces of legislation or facilities coming in 2022 to help even the landscape more?

Arthur: I hope that provincial and municipal laws can be passed to limit the damage caused by the display or distribution of graphic images of aborted fetuses. The cities of Toronto and London are deciding whether to pass bylaws limiting graphic signage in public and prohibiting flyer delivery to homes (respectively). Ontario and BC may pass provincial laws that require graphic flyers to be placed in envelopes with identifying information on the outside, so the resident can choose not to open.

I also hope that the federal Canada Health Act can be strengthened to clarify that abortion care must be fully funded in all cases, regardless of where it’s done – hospitals, private clinics, or doctors offices. This was a Liberal promise in the fall 2021 election campaign. Besides New Brunswick not funding surgical abortions at Clinic 554, Ontario does not fully fund some abortion clinics.

A further Liberal promise was to amend the Income Tax Act to preclude anti-choice groups from becoming charities. Yet another Liberal promise – for which ARCC had been lobbying for years – is a new Health Canada website portal with accurate information on abortion. I’m excited about that, because a central repository of accurate and reliable info on abortion could really help to defuse anti-choice misinformation and reduce the influence of “crisis pregnancy centres”.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Joyce.

Arthur: My pleasure!

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 42: Excelsior!

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/01/07

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the former President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York and a still a board member. Here we talk about the positive impacts of assertive government interventions and social consciousness improving conditions for all, for a sense of normalcy – even blues music(!).

*Interview conducted October 11, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We’re back with Ask Jon. We’ll be talking about the New York state situation with respect to COVID vaccinations and restrictions and public policy. On the other hand, we will be talking about the case in Texas as a comparison. Then we’ll look at the unified situation between a secular humanist point of view and a religious point of view vis-a-vis evidence-based public policy. So with New York State, you went out to an event. What was that event? What were the conditions under which you could attend in the current COVID situation in New York?

Jonathan Engel: Well, my wife and I on Saturday, this past Saturday night, went to a concert at the Beacon Theatre on the Upper West Side, which, as New York is a great place to see a concert. It’s got an occupancy of about 2,000 people, and you can see well from anywhere and the sound is really good. Anyway, we saw a band, the Tedeschi Trucks Band, led by Susan Tedeschi and Derek Trucks. If you don’t know them, again, a recommendation, to your readers, they are fantastic blues and soul, and that type of thing – really wonderful show. Whether it was the first time my wife and I had been to a big indoor venue like that, and I wouldn’t have gone at all, except for the fact that they had enforced the rules, which is that you had to show proof of vaccination to get in, so, we got to the front. The first thing they did was checked proof of vaccination, which, for me, is what New York state issues: the Excelsior Pass. But you can bring just your vaccination card, your Centers for Disease Control with that vaccination card. Then they checked my photo ID, my driver’s license against the name that was on my cell phone, or on my Excelsior Pass. So, that was the rule for everyone. They said: If you were under 12, then you had a note to bring a child under 12 to the show and that the child would have to wear a mask throughout the performance.

You didn’t have to wear a mask, otherwise, but you had to show – you had to prove – you were vaccinated to get it. That made me feel a lot more comfortable. I did wear a mask through most of the show. Some other people did. Most people didn’t. But it really made me feel better, and that’s the only way I would go. I’m not going to any venue that doesn’t insist and in New York City; it’s the law, anyway. So, this is the way it is these days here in the city, but it’s really helping us get back to normal. These mandates: You want to go to the show, then you got to show proof of vaccination. That’s saying that if they want to go to the show, they have to get vaccinated. That means a person like me feels comfortable going to a show knowing that I’m sitting around only other vaccinated people.

Of course, I, myself, am vaccinated. I couldn’t have done it, otherwise. So I think that’s really helping us. Right now, also, it’s helping just in general, the city. For example, there is no city mandate that all people work in health care and all people who work in education have to be vaccinated. In the week before that mandate went into effect, the vaccination rate of health care workers in New York City went from 82 percent to 90 percent. So, it is working. Those mandates are indeed working. But there is a cloud on the horizon because there is a lawsuit that has been filed to create a religious exemption and that is in the courts right now. I’m not sure exactly what the status is, but if that were to go through. If the courts were to agree and to say that health care facilities in New York and also schools in New York had to give a religious exemption, it really has the potential to set us back, which is the last thing we need right now.

So we’ll see where that case goes. But right now, you can go out to places. You can go to restaurants, et cetera, but concerts – like I went to Saturday night and for a fantastic show; but you have to prove that you’ve been vaccinated. There are no exceptions. So, we’re doing better. The city’s coming alive a little bit, which is great because that’s what this city is all about. But again, if religion is allowed to, like it does in some other places in this country, the United States, if religion is allowed to sort of take precedence and religious beliefs are going to Trump – pun intended – the ability of us to get back to normal, then we could be in trouble again. So, we’re doing better. It’s looking better. But we have to keep it up, and we have to. Hopefully, again, we have this possibility that a religious exemption will set us back in our ability to go forward and back to some kind of normalcy.

Jacobsen: With regards to the Texas situation, there’s an issue with continual fundamentalist religious, typically Christian, efforts to restrict the rights of individuals on behalf of that larger theological framework. Particularly, these restrictions in the American context for the last half century or 50 years: Focus on women’s bodies. These can focus around autonomy rights. They can focus around individual choice rights. They can focus around freedom of conscience rights. How ever they are framed, the main idea is restriction of women in choice, about reproduction and about their bodies. So, about their long term well-being and their short term choices of well-being, with respect to either of those, how is this case in New York related in terms of Secular Humanism and religious views to the other one?

Engel: What’s going on in Texas is something that is very frightening for a lot of people, obviously, people in this country still remember if they’re old enough. I mean my age or older. A time when Roe v Wade, where in certain states abortion was illegal, certain states it was not. Again, mostly in the Bible Belt, what we call the Bible bBelt, the South through the lower Midwest of this country. So, the question, it’s very much a constitutional question because women in this country have the right to abortion. There are certain guidelines and rules forwithin a certain time. But clearly, this Texas law violates the constitution, as set forth in the case of Roe versus Wade. So, we have, in Texas, now, women fleeing to neighboring states to get abortions because they can’t get one in Texas. That’s endangering their health. That’s endangering their well being. The purpose behind a lot of this is to enshrine religious beliefs in this country. To enshrine religious belief at the detriment of all others, if a person believes that getting an abortion is against their religion, they don’t have to get an abortion. I mean, nobody’s forcing it, that on anyone. But the bottom line is that, the culture and the right wing politics have come together with religion in a way that is dangerous to the United States.

And you see that in New York, “I want a religious exemption to vaccine.” Not everybody who wants a religious exemption is really, really religious. I mean, they can’t go to their holy book and point that, ‘Well, here’s where it says this,’ or, ‘Here’s where it’s bad or something.’ A lot of this has been wound up in this cultural kind of fight that, that essentially it’s not only,, from religion, but also against any sense of the common good. So, you see in Texas religious freedom and religious beliefs have been used to restrict the women’s right to choose. here in New York, there are those who are trying to cripple our ability to come back from the COVID vaccine. Again using religion as an excuse.

But in my view, as an attorney, I see this as being unconstitutional because which religions are going to be prioritized, which religious beliefs? There are a lot of references the the Bible. Certainly, the Christian Bible says nothing about contraception or abortion, but has become a cultural sort of touchstone that that’s my entwined with religion. So that’s my religious beliefs. government can’t be in the business of deciding whose religious beliefs are to be accepted and whose aren’t. So you can have your religious beliefs and you can say, I’m not going to get an abortion because of my religious beliefs. But once you start saying they can’t get an abortion because of my religious beliefs, or I should be able to go work in a hospital even though I haven’t been vaccinated because of my religious beliefs.

Once you start accepting that kind of thing, which again, in my view, is against the Constitution, because what the Constitution permits the free exercise of religion, mandates of the provision of free exercise of religion, it also says that government cannot establish religion. So the idea is that government stays away from the religious business, including, when it comes to decisions about health, when it comes to decisions about health care and vaccinations, government stays out of it with regard to religion. But you can go ahead and practice religion, if you want to. If you really believe that your religion says that you shouldn’t get vaccinated, you don’t have to get vaccinated. Nobody is forcing people to get vaccinated, but you can’t work in a hospital and you can’t work in a school with kids who are under 12 and can’t get vaccinated. This is all reasonable to me, but religious beliefs are being used to chip away at these common sensical health and educational beliefs and systems. That, to me, is what is a tremendous danger here in this country. You see it with the vaccines. You’re seeing it in Texas. By the way, people who are against abortion or frequently against the types of things that lower abortion rates. Because I can tell you from research, because I’ve done research on it that making abortion illegal doesn’t lower abortion rates; it just makes it more dangerous.

Women still get abortions, but they do it, illegally. They do it, as we used to call “back alley abortions.” It becomes unsafe, but it doesn’t stop. It doesn’t stop them from abortion. So what happens is that there are a lot of people in this country who want abortion to be illegal. But, are not interested in doing the types of things that actually lower abortion rates, myself as a secular humanist, I want to look at the evidence. I want to look; because again, I once saw a study that looked at a couple of countries where abortion is absolutely illegal in all circumstances in South America and they compare that to a couple of countries in Europe, where abortion is legal and is paid for by government health insurance and the abortion rates are high in the countries where abortion was illegal more than where it’s legal.

So what I’m looking for is an evidence base and determining what’s best for the common good of the people, as a secularist and as a humanist. But we have a lot of religious people who are doing kind of the opposite; that it’s still my religious dogma that should determine what the law is not, not research based evidence. Again, we see that in Texas; and we see that here in New York with the lawsuit looking to create religious exemptions to a vaccine policy that is helping us to get better to get more healthy.

Jacobsen: Jon, as always, thanks so much for your time.

Engel: Well, it’s a pleasure, Scott, as always.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 41: Altered Altars and Jones to Pick

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/11/14

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about Bob Jones University and uncovering historical moments in religious fundamentalism encroachments into political spheres, where things begin decades prior.

*Interview conducted September 13, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The topic today is going to be about hidden parts of secular history in the United States. One of them being the ongoing war, more or less, between Evangelical Christians and much of the rest of the nation. A traditional idea is women’s bodies legal battles, where there is the start of a lot of these attempts to bring Evangelical protestant movements to political power. However, that’s not entirely true. Although, it’s partly true. What’s the more complete story there? What happened before Roe v. Wade?

Jonathan Engel: Well, the lies of the religious right politically in the United States — which is traced usually to about the early 70s — it came about for a number of different reasons. But, most people assume its origins was with the Roe v. Wade case on legalized abortion. It’s kind of reasonable that people would think that’s really where the origin was because it’s become such an overwhelming part of the Evangelical movement. If they’re smart, which I guess some of them are and some of them aren’t. They would know that ending legalized abortion will not end abortion. Ending legalized abortion has become such a huge rallying cry. It has been for many years of the religious right Evangelicals – that it is assumed; it was the Roe v. Wade decision that started it with the people who eventually led that movement, especially early on. People like Pat Robertson and Jerry Falwell Sr. and Phyllis Schlafly and Ralph Reid. and others as well.

Most historians — there’s been some interesting articles published recently in historical journals about this — look back at that era and say it was a different Supreme Court case that — actually I’m not sure if it was Supreme Court, it was a different court case — that actually led Evangelicals to start up a much more politicized kind of movement. And that was a case of Bob Jones University in South Carolina. Now, Bob Jones University had a policy: no black people allowed here. That was it. But they did have non-profit status under the federal internal revenue service. That’s very essential because that means people can give them money as a donation and deduct it from their income tax. If they weren’t formally recognized by the IRS, you could still give money, but you couldn’t deduct it from your income tax.

Not to mention the fact that they would be subject to things like real estate taxes, if they weren’t an official non-profit. The thing is though, the IRS also has rules that say that non-profits can not discriminate on the basis of race, so the IRS said to Bob Jones University, ‘We are cutting off your non-profit status because you do not comply with our rules against racial discrimination.’ It was upheld in the courts, and that sent white Evangelicals around the bend. They were crazy about this decision. And that’s what really started them in their quest for political power, or increased political power. Roe v. Wade was something that they really used and continue to use as a vehicle, as something that really gets the base of their Evangelicals all excited to go out and vote and everything else like that. It’s been a very important part of the Evangelical political movement in this country, but it started with Bob Jones University. It was not started to save unborn babies, as crazy as that all is; it was the Evangelical political movement in this country started in order to enforce segregation. And it was important to them beyond Bob Jones University, because what happened in the 60s and 70s. You started to get court rulings saying that discrimination in public schools was not going to be tolerated.

Of course, the schools would say, ‘Oh, we’re not discriminating, it just kind of worked out this way that all the black kids in our district go to this school and the white kids go to this school.’ It was in the late 60s and early 70s that courts started saying , ‘No, no, no, no, that’s not good enough. We’re going to integrate your schools.’ At which point, there were a lot of whites, primarily upper middle class and wealthy whites, who started their own schools, which were, once again, they never had any formal statements, ‘No black kids allowed,’ but they were all whites! It just happened to work out that way. They were afraid. They were very afraid from the Bob Jones case. I mean this was the whole point. They started these schools because they wanted their kids to go to all-white schools, just like they did when segregation was approved by southern states.

They wanted to continue that. And then all of a sudden, they were afraid that the ruling in Bob Jones University would mean they would lose their non-profit status and that parents who were shoveling money into them and deducting that money from their income taxes could no longer deduct the money, it was going to hurt them financially. And that was really the start. Again, the moral majority, Jerry Falwell, et cetera., all that political power that we see still today, from right wing Christian Evangelicals, the reason they started to get involved — again, Roe v. Wade was an accelerant and it pushed it forward — but the start of the fire was the desire to have their kids go to segregated schools.

Jacobsen: For these kinds of movements, do they evolve much over time, or do their essential drivers stay the same?

Engel: Well, they don’t believe in evolution, so [Laughing]…

Jacobsen: [Laughing] That was good.

Engel: But yeah, of course, they take up certain causes. You see this with COVID. One of their causes now is against any kind of mandate, mask mandate, vaccine mandate. Anything that they think will whip up the people that constitute their base. They are always on the lookout for a new issue to go crazy for. Now, especially if the Supreme Court really does overturn Roe v. Wade, it’s like the dog that catches the car. What’s he gonna do with it? Now what? And they will, obviously, go looking for something else. Some other way to preserve their political power, which is largely part of a racial type of thing. Something like 85% of CEOs in this country are white Christian males. They want to keep it that way. They will glom onto anything. Now, it’s mask mandates. It’s vaccine mandates that they’re really against. They do evolve in that sense. They find new issues, et cetera, but as for their actual thinking — if you could call it that, which is a stretch — their thinking is basically the same. And again, it’s all about maintaining white, Christian male power in this country.

Jacobsen: Do you think that some of the attitudes have changed in terms of the significance of race and racial politics within Evangelical movements?

Engel: It doesn’t look like it has. I don’t really think it’s changed all that much. I mean, every once in a while, there is a semi effort to bring in black or Hispanic Evangelicals who may be socially conservative too, but there’s too many things that give away the ghost. They can sort of talk about those sorts of things and make little efforts toward it, but this is a white movement. This is a white Christian movement. And that’s one thing that a lot of Liberals and Democrats have a difficult time with; as you would imagine, it pisses me off, but they have a difficult time with it. They have a difficult time saying the Christian part. When January 6th happened, you had a lot of Liberal commentators talking about the white nationalism of the people who are invading the Capitol. But it’s not just white nationalism. It’s white Christian nationalism. They just shy away from saying that. There are so many people who are afraid of criticizing religion.

That they will shy away from saying that. The truth of the matter, there it is: yes, it is white Christian nationalism. Other people on January 6th, you see these lunatics including the ‘QAnon Shaman’ or whatever this guy is who has now pleaded guilty to charges. What did they do as soon as they got inside the chambers? They said ‘w, ‘We are here to sanctify this chamber in the name of Jesus Christ.’ That’s what they said! And it’s on film. It’s on tape. There was a lot of Christian symbolism and imagery in the crowd as well. This is a white, Christian, male-dominated movement. Even though, there are Liberals who are nervous about saying anything negative about religion. The truth is still there and this is what it is.

Jacobsen: So, Bob Jones University is still in existence. What does this mean in terms of the continuing part Evangelical Christianity is playing within American politics and post secondary education, at least at the private level?

Engel: Well, it’s interesting because Bob Jones University has sort of fallen off of people’s radar. I bet if you ask the majority of Americans, “What do you think of Bob Jones University?” They’ll say, “What’s that? Never heard of it.” They’ve used it for their purposes, and then they’ve sort of tossed it away. There are other Christian colleges in this country that are hotbeds for right wing teaching, right wing think tanks. You look at Liberty College which is in Virginia. It was founded by Jerry Falwell, and then it was run by Jerry Falwell Jr. who got into — oh my god, you’re never going to believe this — a sex scandal, and he was tossed out. There’s an old saying that patriotism is the last refuge of the scoundrel, but I really think it’s religion. Religion is the last refuge of the scoundrel. And so, you have this guy who’s basically Jerry Falwell Jr.… I don’t care what he did, that’s between him and his wife, his shenanigans, as they’re sometimes called. I don’t care. I don’t think it makes him a good person. It’s still established law, though,. You can’t openly discriminate and have 501(c)(3) non-profit status. The Bob Jones case is still good law. It has been all the time, but even though nobody talks about Bob Jones anymore, you still see the effects of that bringing together of people to say, “We are going to…” — again they don’t say it explicitly — “…have a white power dynamic in this country to hold on to,” and it’s still there.

Jacobsen: What about the end game? What is the trajectory of this playing out in politics? Because the demographics for Evangelical Christians does not look good. In other words, they are declining. They have been declining for years and years, and the younger populations in the United States are much more secular. Whether by name or by content of belief, they are more secular humanist than any prior generation in the United States. So how does this change as things move forward?

Engel: That’s a very good question, and it’s a very frightening question, because the answer is frightening. We’re seeing how this plays out. They know the demographics are against them. They know the cultural shifts are against them. It’s so funny. You hear right wingers say, ‘Corporations… Hollywood is trying to influence the way we think about race.’ No, they’re not. They’re trying to make money. They want to stay ahead of the culture. They want to stay right where the culture is, or a little bit ahead. But that’s because they see if that’s where the culture is going, then that’s where the money is going to be. So, what’s frightening so much about your question is that all around this country right now — and this could be a topic for a long conversation but I’ll try to nutshell it — but all around this country right now you’re seeing attempts by state legislatures and states that are basically Republican, try and really defeat democracy.

Voter suppression, trying to have rules that will hurt people’s ability to vote, so there will be fewer voters. But also, and this is the scariest part, they really are looking to find ways to pass laws that say, essentially, ‘If the state legislature doesn’t like the way the people voted in, say a presidential election, that instead of the electors in that state going toward the person who won the most votes, the state legislature can decide where to send their electoral votes.’ So, there is an actual effort in this country to counter the demographic trends you were talking about. The demographics are there, this country is becoming less Christian, less white and the way they want to counter that — and again you would look to say, ‘Well shit, that must mean that they’re not going to do well in the elections going forward’ — and they say, ‘Well, yeah, we’re gonna fix that. And the way we’re going to fix that is we’re going to fix our elections.’ And that’s really a very frightening thing.

Democrats have a couple of bills that they would like to pass, certainly out of the House, or they have past out of the House, that protect voting rights and protect democracy, but the problem is that they can’t get it past in the Senate, and it’s not going to become law, and therefore there’s real dangers of losing democracy, and that’s where the end game is right now for the white Evangelical extreme right. They see that those demographics work against them. So, they’re trying to change the structure of our democracy to keep power, despite the fact that they know they are in the minority when it comes to what the overall view of the people is.

Jacobsen: Jon, as always, thank you very much for your time and the opportunity today.

Engel: My pleasure, Scott. Listen, take care.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 40: Transcendentalist Ethics, or Moral Truncation in Practice

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/11/07

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about ongoing problems with religious ethics in practice in critical times.

*Interview conducted August 30, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, today we’re going to be focusing on mandates around COVID, and religious institutions and the State. With regards to COVID in America now, one: what are some of the numbers or general census around the country? Also, what’s the impact of exclusions for religion when it comes to mandates from the State? How does this play out in New York State along religious and non-religious lines?

Jonathan Engel: Well, good question. Basically, in the United States as a whole right now, you’re seeing very high spikes and very difficult circumstances surrounding COVID in certain states. And not surprisingly, the states that are having the worst uptick of COVID tend to be those states that have the lowest vaccination rates. And they also happen to be states that — for the most part — are in the south and the middle of the country. You have Florida, Mississippi, Alabama, Louisiana, Missouri, Arkansas, Texas, and Tennessee as well. Now, this is what we in this country call the ‘Bible Belt’, not surprisingly. It’s very conservative, very religious, and those are the areas that are seeing really bad COVID spikes. We’re talking about hospitals that are absolutely full. We’re talking about affecting younger and younger people.

Some young people who are in their 20s and 30s or whatever, are somewhat cavalier about COVID at first. But the Delta variant, it was thought that this affects old people, but the Delta variant is hitting young people, sometimes very young people. It’s also just absolutely overwhelming. We’re talking about one hospital in Mississippi, University of Mississippi Medical Centre, the biggest hospital in the state, turned their parking garage into an extra intensive care centre because they just didn’t have any space. They’re really being overwhelmed. Here in New York, things are not that bad. But again, New York is one of the more highly vaccinated states. We have managed to keep things fairly manageable, not saying people aren’t still getting COVID here, but also remember we’re kind of scared.

I know I am, because every day in this country, there are buses going from every city and small town in the country to New York City. ‘If you can make it there, you can make it anywhere.’ We’re nervous. I’m nervous, about people coming from other states and not being vaccinated and spreading the Delta variant here. I think that’s a real fear. So, that’s really where things stand in the country right now. Now, here in New York City, unfortunately — again, things are going not too badly — but there’s a lot of confusion about what you’re allowed to do, and not allowed to do, where you have to prove vaccination, and where you have to wear a mask. Fortunately in the schools — my wife is going back to teaching in a couple of weeks — they have mandates for all adults in the building must be vaccinated and everybody has to wear a mask. So, you feel a little bit better about that. But houses of worship are having an interesting time.

You have different religions and different denominations of religion. They seem to be dealing with the COVID crisis differently. For example, I read recently how reformed Jewish synagogues — which is, of course, the least religious — a lot of them are having vaccine mandates. You want to come to the High Holy Days, Rosh Hashanah and Yom Kippur are coming up. You want to go to the service. You have to show proof of your vaccination. I actually have an Excelsior pass. You go online and get the petition by the state. I keep one on my phone that shows that I’m vaccinated. On the other hand, the ultra orthodox, the Hasidic are fighting against any kind of mandates for vaccination. The city is sort of taking both sides.

The city government doesn’t want to offend the ultra religious and on the other hand doesn’t want a spike in COVID, so they’re sort of running into each other without knowing what the heck they’re doing. The Catholic Church is sort of leaving it up to individual perishes. The Pope is saying people should get vaccinated, but then you have some very conservative Catholics in this country and in the city who are emphasizing ‘it should be a matter of personal choice, there shouldn’t be any mandates.’ One of the interesting things that you’re seeing is that with some churches and houses of worship in general, they lost money when they had to shut down because of COVID. Because a lot of them rely on people coming every Sunday or Saturday, depending on what religion it is, and putting money into the collection plate.

On the one hand, they know that if there’s an outbreak centered on their community it’ll be devastating. On the other hand they know if they say they require vaccinations, people who are anti-vaccination-mandates won’t come, and they’ll lose money. They don’t really know what the heck to do with regard to the COVID situation. As an individual — well I don’t go to houses of worship, I guess, except for, maybe, a wedding or a bar mitzvah once in a while — I would not go if it wasn’t mandatory vaccine, any indoor event. Outdoors, I would be a little less wary of, but any indoor event, if they don’t require vaccines, I ain’t going. How this is all gonna play out? We’re not sure. This is some of what’s going on with the local churches and synagogues. The less religious they are, the more progressive they are politically, the more likely they are to have a vaccine mandate to come inside and participate in services or mass or whatever it is.

The more religious they are, the less likely they are to agree to those kinds of mandates, and it leaves everybody else, including me, nervous about a big outbreak. You can’t confine a big outbreak. If someone goes to an Orthodox synagogue, with no masks, no vaccine requirements, they’re gonna leave that neighborhood. They’re going to get on the subway. I ride the subway. Right now, everyone’s keeping their fingers crossed, and kind of nervous. Organized religion, again, the less religious among us seem to be doing their part, more or less. The more religious among us are not, and as we all know, when it comes to COVID, there’s no confining it to one place.

Jacobsen: How are the non-religious discussing some of these issues? Is this coming up at all? Or is it mainly coming through commentary in the New York Times and through leaders noticing this but not having a formal discussion in public about it?

Engel: I think that there’s such a taboo about saying something against religion in this country. You see in Bangladesh, from people who are vaccinated against people who aren’t vaccinated, people who refuse to get vaccinated. We’re getting pissed off that we could be so much better and safer than we are, if people would just roll up their sleeves, it’s free! Hell, in a lot of places, they’ll give you something to do it. Very few make the connection between that refusal to get vaccinated and religion, but the connection is there. Obviously, it’s not 100%. There are a lot of people who refuse to get vaccinated where it doesn’t have anything to do with religious beliefs, but it is a very strong indicator, like we were just talking about.

If you meet a person who refuses to get vaccinated, there is a very good chance that they belong to a religion or a sect that is more fundamentalist and more extreme in their religious beliefs. People don’t want to say it — hell, I’ll say it — a lot of people don’t want to say it and they don’t want to admit it. There is backlash against the unvaccinated in a lot of places and some anger brewing, but the connection to the religious beliefs has been a lot of people don’t want to make it. They can see the connection is there, the correlation is there. There are a lot of ministers out there saying, ‘We will not wear their masks. It’s the sign of the devil.’ I don’t understand a lot of this stuff. ‘The vaccine is a sign of the antichrist,’ or something, I don’t even understand any of that. People are not making that connection, and they really should, at least not in public. I would like to think that in our movement away from heavy duty religiosity in this country, which is being spearheaded by young people — young people tend to be much less religious than their parents — that they are saying, ‘We want to go back to normal. We want to solve this COVID crisis.’ We can see that organized religion, especially extremist organized religion is something that’s getting in the way in our fight against COVID.

Jacobsen: How do you think this is changing demographic attitudes about supernatural ideas, not just religion in general?

Engel: Well, let’s put it this way. From a theoretical point of view, I think it is changing attitudes. It would make sense that we change attitudes. That people would see how many religious people who prayed, et cetera, got COVID and died from it. Not just that, but also at a time when it seems like it’s a public good or a common good for everybody to get vaccinated, I think that they can see that extremist religion is a force against that. Not just a force against that, but also, it’s not helping anybody. There are religious people all over the place who are falling dead from COVID. I would think, at least theoretically, that you’d make that connection, especially a young person who might be open to new ideas, and say, ‘If that doesn’t work, if praying has not saved people from dying from COVID, maybe, we should rethink this whole prayer thing in general,’ and make that sort of connection. In many places, there is obviously a very big reluctance to look at things in that logical sense.

Remember, this is something I always ask, “Where do kids learn that believing in something for which there is no evidence is not only okay, but a great virtue?” And that’s in church. And it’s breaking that area of beliefs that, I think, can help advance the concept of secularism and rejection of the supernatural, which is there. With young people especially, if they can escape that belief that somehow believing in something for which there is no evidence is a sign that you’re a good person, and if you don’t believe that, you’re a bad person. I think that’s a poor concept of how we break the stranglehold of religion and anti-science in this country, which is destroying that concept that we should always believe that if someone has faith; they believe in something for which they have no evidence; that’s a sign of them being a good person, as opposed to it being a sign that they’re a delusional person, a non-scientific person. A person who has some sort of mental illness, perhaps. It doesn’t make sense. It doesn’t do you good, or anybody any good, to believe in something for which there is no evidence.

Jacobsen: Many of these ideas are coming out of the idea of an interventionist God to save them from the Coronavirus. Fundamentally, this is around how we behave with ourselves and towards others. That’s ethics. So, this ethic is grounded in divine intervention. By definition, that’s an ethic of transcendentalism, or supernaturalist ethics.

Engel: That’s a fascinating concept.

Jacobsen: With a majority concept to the world around ethics — probably 84% of the world is religious, something like this — so, what is this saying about supernatural ethics? It doesn’t do anything. Yet, most of the world has a moral map built on that. Is this saying that most Americans, for instance, most of the population, is not grounding their ethical decision making, their ethical decision tree, in the real world?

Engel: Yeah, and you see what happens when that is the case, but absolutely, that’s a very strong point. You do not get a vaccine because you think God is going to protect you. What is that saying to the rest of your community? You are not acting as an ethical person in that case because you are putting other people’s lives at risk. It’s interesting how many people say, ‘Well, people just don’t want the government telling them what to do.’ They want anarchy? I don’t think they want anarchy. The government in this country tells us that we have to drive on the right hand side of the road. So, we’re going to have someone say, ‘I don’t want the government telling me what to do. I’m going to drive on the left-hand side of the road.’ This is the nature of not just an ethical society, but of any society. We have rules. How did we come to those rules? Well, by common consensus.

The rules are necessary for us in order to live our lives in any kind of safety. To have any kind of decency and common good in a county, we need to have certain rules. There’s no problem questioning the rules. You can ask a question, but that doesn’t mean that the rules shouldn’t apply to you or shouldn’t exist. When you put yourself in God’s hands… I remember a few years ago, reading a story about a very religious woman in Florida who was driving in her car, and she lost control of the car. Fortunately, she was not hurt and nobody else was hurt, but boy did she demolish a house. And afterward, she said, ‘I sort of lost control, and then just I closed my eyes and put my faith in Jesus, and that’s what I did.’ I think it’s a strong point that you’re making that not only is that deluded and crazy, but it’s also unethical. When she did that, what she said was ‘You are putting your beliefs which are not supported by any evidence, and not only risking your own life but risking the lives of other people.’ That is unethical.

To not get vaccinated is unethical, because it’s putting at risk other people in your community, especially children, who can’t get vaccinated, it’s funny; there used to be a saying that people talk about that your right to swing your fist ends at my nose. You have your rights, but you can’t hurt me. And now, today, it seems like there are people in this country whose idea is more like your getting punched in the nose is the price we pay for the right to swing my fist. That is not ethical. I don’t care if you base that on religion or on anything else. That is simply not ethical. And that is something that is worrisome and frightening and hopefully something that at least most Americans would be against. The idea that I can do whatever I want and it doesn’t matter if it hurts. Individual freedom is great, but I go back to the old one. You have your right to swing your fist around, but that right ends at my nose. You have the right to be a little crazy, but if it puts other people in danger… including being religious, you have the right to believe in the great sky deity, and all the rest of that stuff, but you do not have the right to act in an unethical way that puts other people in danger. I think that’s another important point.

Jacobsen: Good sir, thank you as always, I have to run off to another meeting.

Engel: You take care, now.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 39: “That person’s religious beliefs are hurting him and his community.”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/10/21

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about changes in the secular New York community with COVID.

*Interview conducted July 25, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, we are back after an approximately three month and three week hiatus with Ask Jon. So, the Biden/Harris administration has been in for about six months or so, since inauguration. With that transition — and six months seems like a reasonable time to begin asking some of these questions — what has been the feeling in New York state over time? What has been the change in the conversation within the secular community there?

Jonathan Engel: Well, a lot of it is just ‘wait and see.’ Although, yes, it has been six months and the Biden administration started off kind of like gangbusters, because one of the first things they did — it was a real emergency they were responding to — was a big package of relief. Economic relief for small businesses and for individuals who had all taken big economic hits due to COVID. So, that started off really well. They did it without any Republican votes. They did it by a process in the Senate that’s called Reconciliation. The United States Senate has a lot of really weird rules. Included in those rules is the filibusters. Which means, if a bill is proposed, essentially, if 40 members of the Senate were opposed to the bill, vote to cut off the bait on the bill, the bill just goes away. It gives the minority a tremendous amount of power. Since they passed that through a budget process called Reconciliation, which means a straight 50 or 51 votes is good enough. Only budget matters can be passed that way. Right now, one of the things we’re sitting on here; we’re sitting on a lot of different things. There’s two different voting rights acts that Democrats want to pass. There’s immigration reform. There’s this whole infrastructure package. The bottom line is: things seem stalled right now. It got off to a fast start. Part of the issue has been that Biden and some other top democrats — for some reason I can’t quite figure — they’re looking for what they call bipartisanship. “Oh, we want to get some Republican votes.” This is essentially Charlie Brown, Lucy and the football.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: It’s what it is. It happens all the time. The Democrats are Charlie Brown. They probably keep saying, “Yeah, if you just talk to us, and give us some of the things we want, we’ll vote for this bill and we’ll have this bill that’s bipartisan.” And then they negotiate and they negotiate, and the negotiations drag on, because Republicans are just trying to run out the clock anyway, and then when it comes time to actually vote on the bill, it’s time to pick up the football, and leave the Democrats flat on their backs, just like Charlie Brown. There’s also some question here. I know as a democrat and a liberal in New York. I’m wondering: What the heck is going on? Why is it that only Democrats have to be bipartisan? When Trump won in 2016, the Republicans had the House and the Senate, and Mitch McConnell didn’t say, ‘Oh, we wanna get bipartisanship,’ on anything. What he said was, “Elections have consequences.” Which was his way of saying, “We won, so we’re going to do whatever we want.” And then Democrats get in and it’s like, “Oh, we need to have some Republican support,” et cetera. So, right now, there’s a lot of frustration among people like me, on a number of fronts. In terms of the Biden administration, a lot of people like me are kind of frustrated. I understand how tough his situation is, but I’m tired of him thinking that Lucy is going to hold that football this time. This time she’s gonna really hold it. And it never happens that way, and it’s time to stop trying to make it happen that way. It’s time to take the Mitch McConell attitude, “We won, we’re going to do whatever we want.” As time passes, it gets a little bit and a little bit more frustrating. I think they got off to a good start and he’s done a number of really positive things, but he’s hung up on this “Oh let’s try and get some Republican votes” thing. And again, it’s like Charlie Brown, “I’m hung up on: I’m gonna kick that football, one of these days she’s gonna hold it and I’m gonna kick it,” and to the best of my knowledge that’s never happened. And since Charles Schultz has been dead for the last ten years or so, I don’t think it’s going to.

Jacobsen: What have you been impressed with by Biden? Those particular things that he’s done in policy, or in actions or in statements beneficial to the equality of the Secular community. I want to emphasize the idea is never superiority of any Secular group. It’s about equality, because there are so many areas in which Secular Americans, either by the attitude of the public or policy that is explicit, are discriminatory against the Secular community in the United States.

Engel: I haven’t seen very much to be honest. For people like me for whom secularism is really important, where separation of church and state is really important, I think some of us are just caught on the really huge issues. I mean, we’ve got life and death issues here. In case anybody hasn’t noticed, the world is on fire. Half of it. Half of it is flooded, half of it is on fire. Which is amazing to me, I’m always saying this to my wife, we’re always talking about how 15 years ago we saw the movie An Inconvenient Truth. Everything they said is happening. Everything. The extremes of heat. We’re focused on that. That’s life and death. We’re focused on the COVID situation, which is not on a good path right now. It is not getting better, it is getting worse. Focusing on that, and voting rights. There are so many hair-on-fire things going on that I think we are reluctant to come to Biden and say, “Look, it would be nice if you mention the phrase ‘separation of church and state’ a couple of times.” Everybody in the country right now knows what a devout guy Joe Biden is. He’s a devout Catholic, he’s a devout Catholic! They use that as a shield, when Republicans call us ‘Godless,’ which is something that we should be proud of, but that’s not the way it works here. And they use that as a shield, “Oh look at Joe, he’s so devout, he’s so devout!” And I don’t really give a damn, but he has not been good on secular issues so far, but I’ve been crowded out by all the hair-on-fire emergencies we’ve got going now. So that conversation really isn’t happening all that much, unfortunately. It’s an important issue to me. I know it’s an important issue to a lot of the people I know, but it’s just been crowded out. A lot of us are on the horns of a dilemma because on one hand, we think, “Yeah, it’s important to us, it’s an important issue, and we’re an important constituency to Biden and to the Democratic party, I’m talking about secular people. But a lot of us are like, “Well, you know, I’ve got to give the guy another grape now,” because he has all this other insanity to deal with. So, that’s really where it is, and it’s a little bit frustrating and a little bit disappointing, but I also find it a little bit understandable, considering again, the huge crises in climate and COVID that are happening right now in the country.

Jacobsen: What is John Rafferty saying about all this?

Engel: Oh, that’s an interesting question. In the Secular Humanist Society, we’re just trying to keep our heads over water. We lost membership over the course of the COVID lockdown. A lot of people kept touch with us by our live events, and I’ve been conducting a Zoom happy hour every Sunday at 5:00 for a while now to try and keep base with people. And of course, I’m in touch with John. I talk to him a lot, and right now as an organization we’re just trying to keep ourselves together and keep ourselves viable. And at the same time, we’re dealing with something a lot of people are dealing with right now, we’re going back tentatively, gingerly, to live events, et cetera, and we’re sitting here trying to plan for the next number of months. My feeling is that we should plan, we have to, but have to do so with the understanding that “the best laid schemes o’ mice an’ men, gang aft agley.” We really don’t know. I mean, my wife is a schoolteacher. What’s going to happen in September? Well, right now, the plan is all schools open, all schools in-person. This is all dependent on where the disease goes, and right now I don’t know where the disease is going, and nobody does. For me, it’s a feeling of very great uncertainty. I’ll give you an example. I love music, I love live music. One of the things I miss the most during the lockdowns was going to concerts. I usually go to ten or twelve live concerts a year, plus club dates and stuff like that, and I have to tell you. I’m buying tickets to shows, but I’m saying to myself, “I’m honestly not sure I’m going to be going to them.” Fortunately, most of the venues I’m buying at are very clear that you must show proof of vaccination to get in, but even so I’m saying to myself, “Am I actually going to be going to the show in October that I have tickets for?” And the answer is, “I don’t know.”

Jacobsen: Have you had any correspondence with any of the other leadership of the other secular organizations in New York? What have been the other concerns for them?

Engel: Not that much. I mean, it’s funny because John Rafferty suggested we do a panel with some of the other secular organizations in New York. I’ve gotten in touch with Gotham Atheists quite a bit. We’re all just trying to feel our way back into our live events. We always used to do, once a month, a Sunday brunch and conversation at a local restaurant. Last Sunday, a week ago, we had our first one that we’ve had in a year and a half. We had pretty decent attendance, we had somewhere between 20 and 25 people, so that went pretty well. We’re planning to do it again in August, we just hope that we’ll be able to. That’s basically what’s going on. Everyone’s taking tentative baby steps toward beginning to open up, looking and seeing what’s happening. Of course, the issues are still there, the issues are for us: separation of church and state, being one of the most important, recognizing the right to be secular, and also believing in science and not in dogma. This is really tough in this country and it’s come out a lot in the COVID issues. Here we are, the richest country in the world, vaccines are available for every single person in this country, not a problem, you can get it easily. Yet, we’re only at maybe 15% vaccinated, which is absolutely frightening, and a lot of it has to do with religion and religious beliefs. I read an article in The Times yesterday — and by the way, one of these days we’ll talk about Staten Island, Staten Island is the weirdest of the New York City boroughs by a large margin — there’s a story, and because it’s also a mostly politically conservative borough, whereas all the rest of boroughs in Manhattan are very politically liberal. I mean Trump only got 30% of New York City vote in 2020, but almost all of that came from Staten Island. Here’s a guy who actually works swabbing people at a testing site, who has not been vaccinated in Staten Island, he’s not vaccinated, he said, “I need more results. If the FDA is still studying it, that means it’s a conversation. Until it’s 100%, you don’t have my vote. I believe in Jesus, I pray a lot. I’m going with that.” This is still New York City. I know it’s Staten Island, but it’s still New York City. If that’s what it’s like here, what do you think it’s like in the Bible Belt, in Arkansas and Tennessee where their infections are exploding? We live in this society where it’s taboo to say, “That person’s religious beliefs are hurting him and his community.” It’s absolutely taboo… I’ll say it, I don’t care. For any person who is a person of influence, an elected official or whatever, that type of talk, although it is patently true, is still taboo. Again, that’s the religiosity of the United States and the American people is another thing holding us back from our recovery from COVID.

Jacobsen: Jon, as always, thank you so much.

Engel: Oh, it’s a pleasure, stay cool!

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2022-05-15

Ask Dr. P.B. 5: Permissive Tax Exemptions

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/04

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff has been a community organizer for more than 15 years. He has been active in Saanich municipal politics. He earned a PhD in Politics and International Studies from the University of Cambridge and two BAs from the University of Calgary in Political Science and International Relations, respectively. He is a Board Member of the Greater Victoria Placemaking Network. He owns and operates a research consultancy called The Idea Tree. He is a New Democrat, politically, and is the President of the Saanich-Gulf Islands NDP riding association. He founded OceansAsia as a marine conservation organization devoted to combating illegal fishing and wildlife crime. Here we talk about taxation and its context around places of worship and permissive tax exemptions.

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Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The first issue: Why do people need to care about taxes more than they are at the moment?

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff: That’s an interesting question. I think the theme that underlies our entire report [A Public Good? Property Tax Exemptions for Places of Worship in British Columbia] is that it is important that government be responsible with our taxes. So, we always care about governments having equitable, fair, reasonable, and responsible policies that pertain to our taxes.

This is one of the issues that exists around the topic covered in the report – specifically tax exemptions being granted to places of worship. For every penny that’s not collected by the government as a result of such exemptions, represents money that the government needs to find elsewhere, and that vey often falls on the taxpayers. So, if you have municipalities giving out hundreds of thousands of dollars in tax exemptions, they need money to balance their books. It needs to come from somewhere else, and that somewhere else tends to be the pockets of taxpayers.

Jacobsen: Yet, I can hear commentary now. So, what’s the big deal with taxing churches or places of worship? Why should this be a thing? Is it that big of a deal? What’s the dollar value we’re looking at here?

Phelps Bondaroff: A couple of summers ago, our research teams started looking into tax exemptions for places of worship in BC. It is a good idea to start with some explanation about what we are talking about here. First, there are two kinds of tax exemptions that are offered to places of worship in British Columbia:

1) Statutory tax exceptions are exemptions that are automatically granted to places of worship. These are granted exclusively to the place of worship itself – to the building itself.

2) Permissive tax exemptions are tax exemptions that can be granted to a place of worship by a municipality. These cover all of the property around the specific place of worship, and any improvements. For example a parking lot, out buildings, that kind of thing.

While a place of worship received a statutory tax exemption automatically, permissive tax exemptions can be granted by a municipality, and municipalities have a diversity of policies across the province. Some municipalities will grant permissive tax exemptions [PTEs] automatically. Some municipalities will grant them with benefits tests or on the basis of some set of criteria or requirements.

When we ran the numbers, we determined that municipalities gave out $12.2 million in permissive tax exemption in 2019. When it comes to statutory tax exemptions [STEs], we used a different set of numbers as reported by the CRA. We determined that the value of statutory exemptions in 2019 amounted to $45.9 million for places of worship.

I’m always trying to be careful with my language here because these exemptions are granted as a cash grant. They’re a grant, basically. But no money is being given, however, the state is declining to collect a potential debt it would otherwise be owed. The language used when discussing this can be challenging and we try to be very clear about what we are talking about. We are in essence talking about values of money the state is not collecting.

Let me briefly outline how we calculated these numbers.

For permissive tax exemptions, our research team went through the annual reports of every single municipality in BC, all 162 of them. Most municipalities report on whether they have tax exemptions and the value of exemptions they grant. Some provide a total number, while others will disaggregate the data by recipient.

With respect to statutory tax exemptions, we had to go through a slightly more complicated process. The full process is outlined on page seven of the report. Basically, we got data from CRA, data on aggregate property values, for all properties classified as churches and Bible schools under Code 652. Then we ran some math, determine the value of those properties and how much taxes those properties were anticipated to pay, if there were to pay taxes.

Jacobsen: What does that translate into in a township with an equivalent project or thing they could do with that kind of money?

Phelps Bondaroff: It depends from municipality to municipality. In our report, we break it down by municipality. But if you average out the value out the value of both tax exemptions [in 2019], it works out to twelve dollars per British Columbian. So, twelve dollars of taxes are going to support places of worship in your community. But it does vary considerably.

For example, the municipality with the highest estimated value of statutory tax exemptions is the City of Vancouver. They are not collecting, an estimated $8.8 million dollars. That is quite high.

When you break it down on a per capita basis, the highest per capita tax exemptions to places of worship was the city of Powell River, with thirty-three dollars per capita allocated to statutory tax exemptions.

Jacobsen: Was it $45.9 million?

Phelps Bondaroff: Yes, that is the total value that we calculate for STEs.

The numbers are quite high in some municipalities. For example, the city of Delta allocated $1.3 million in PTE’s in 2019. The highest, on a per capita basis, was the village of Grand Isle, which granted twenty dollars per capita in PTEs.

You can see how these become significant percentages of municipality budgets. Some municipalities recognize this and have passed bylaws limiting size of permissive tax exemptions to a specific percentage of their budget. This was necessary, because the size of PTEs in some instances was creeping up to over one or two percent of municipal budgets. And that means that a significant amount of that municipality’s budget is going to permissive tax exemptions for places of worship. I should note that we’re not talking about other places, other recipients of tax exemptions, which can include things like hospitals, schools, charities, and so on.

Jacobsen: Let’s go with the definition of a place of worship within British Columbia or even within Canada as a whole. What is the definition there? How are nonreligious groups not necessarily getting the same break?

Phelps Bondaroff: That’s a good question. Canada doesn’t have a definition of what constitutes a religion. There isn’t a firm definition, and there is good reason for this. Quite simply, it is very difficult to pin down what religion is and often a lot of biases come into effect.

Religion is often seen as having a holy book, or having a god or gods, or it is some kind of organized faith tradition. Any kind of definition that could be come up with, we could likely imagine a group that we might consider a religion that would be excluded by from that definition. For example, there was a case recently [The Church of Atheism of Central Canada vs. CRA]. In this case, the judge ruled against the person who was challenging CRA regulations around tax exemptions for churches/places of worship. While I won’t get into the specifics, one thing that was salient was that the judge did note that under the definition they were using, the definition of CRA at that time, Buddhism wouldn’t be considered a religion.

Definitions tend to be based on ‘conventional’ Judeo-Christian interpretations – for lack of a better term – of what constitutes religion. However, this does mean that a lot of new religious movements, or less mainstream religious groups, may be excluded from such a definition.

So to return to your question, what we find is that places of worship are being treated differently than non-places of worship. I’ll give an example: The way that the tax exemptions work in British Columbia, the Community Charter says that places of worship will be granted a permissive tax exemption in perpetuity, whereas other recipients receive a PTE for 10 years. So in this sense, places of worship are being treated differently than other applicants.

Here’s another way in which different tax exemption recipients are treated differently. The reason we give out permissive tax exemptions is to support organizations that are providing a public benefit. This makes sense. Take an organization like the Boys and Girls Club, or a local service club – if they needed to pay $20,000 in property taxes a year, a significant percentage of their income, budget, and time might be used to raise money to pay for these taxes, rather than supporting the services that the club provides to the public. If one of these service organizations can demonstrate they are providing a benefit to the community as a whole, then it makes sense that a municipality would waive these taxes, as doing so would support that organization’s efforts to provide a benefit to community members.

But with the places of worship, with the way the laws are written, there’s an assumption that they’re providing a benefit, but this may not necessarily be the case.

We can see this reflected in elements of bylaws and the law as they relate to duration. As I mentioned, places of worship are granted the permissive tax exemption in perpetuity, as opposed to others, who receive them for a limited time.

This is a problem, because without the need to re-apply, it’s possible that an organization could change its practices and no longer engage in practices that are in line with the goals of the municipality. Asking recipients of permissive tax exemptions to regularly re-apply and to pass a benefits test is another check and balance on how tax dollars are being spent, and one that is very reasonable.

Without a regular application process, there’s no way of knowing that the recipient will continue to provide a benefit to the community.

Now, I’m not saying that there should be an application every year, but it is not unreasonable to ask that a recipient of generous tax exemptions demonstrate their ongoing benefit to the community at large on a regular basis.

All of this differential treatment is a problem. It certainly violates the state’s duty of religious neutrality. To assume that one recipient benefits the community, while another must apply and demonstrate a benefit, is not fair treatment.

I wanted to talk briefly as to why checks like benefits tests are necessary. The reason why you need checks benefits tests, is that the assumption that places of worship necessarily provide a public benefit is not always the case.

When we look through different tax exemption recipients, and in particular places of worship, we found that some of them are operating as private clubs. What that means is that they are only catering to their parishioners or co-religionists – they are not inviting members of the public to participate. If this is the case, then they aren’t benefiting the public. They’re only benefiting their members.

Permissive tax exemptions are designed to support organizations that provide a benefit to the public. If you are operating a private club, then you should not be receiving a permissive tax exemption.

We also found that recipients were delivering ‘contingent services,’ by which I mean that you only get the service they provide – like a soup kitchen or shelter for the night – if you participate in their religious practices.

Here’s an example: We found an Anglican Church [in Parksville] that for a while was running a ‘Pray and Stay’ program, where people who were experiencing homelessness could spend the night in their church, after the city declined to build the shelter. However, people would have to participate in a religious service before they were able to get shelter. So the Church is offering help, but there are strings attached.

We need to ask the question, should the state be subsidizing a private organization that is engaging in an activity that is advertising and proselytizing and promoting the organization? This again violates the state’s duty religious neutrality. It is also not benefiting members of the public, because not all members of the public benefit from the service, because not all of them can participate in the religious service for a host of reasons. Maybe they’re non-believers, maybe they have a different religion. A service is not available to the public if accessing that service is contingent upon the participation in a religious practice.

Some religious groups, and the services they provide, are not accessible to the public for other reasons, notably because they are insular. For example, if you want to be a member of the Exclusive Brethren (and the exclusivity is in the name), that’s fine. That’s your own personal choice. However, this is an organization that practices of ‘doctrine of separation,’ a doctrine that makes it necessary for members to insulate and isolate themselves from society at large as much as possible.

So, again, if a permissive tax exemption is designed to support the work of an organization that provides a benefit to the public, but the public can’t participate in these religious services or practices because they are exclusive to members, then it does not make sense for that organization to receive a tax exemption.

The Exclusive Brethren is a good example of an insular organization that is still receiving permissive tax exemptions but does not provide a benefit to the community at large. They don’t want to be a part of the public, part of the community, and, therefore, giving them tax exemptions that are intended to support an organization that provides benefit to public seems problematic, to say the least.

And numerous Exclusive Brethren places of worship receive permissive tax exemptions. For example, the Abbotsford Park View Gospel Hall received $4,400 in permissive tax exemptions and the West Richmond Gospel Hall in Richmond received $8,869 in tax exemptions in 2019. This is a significant amount of money going to an organization that doesn’t want to benefit the public.

There’s a side point that I thought I’d mention relating to religious participation, which is on the decline. As a result, municipalities may want to allocate tax dollars somewhere else. So, even assuming that some places of worship do benefit the public, and many do, it might be the case that the municipality has a limited amount of money that they’re able to allocate for tax exemptions, and they may want to allocate it in another way in order to maximize the benefit to the public.

Not only are some that these recipients acting as private clubs or are insular, but some are actively discriminating and excluding people. Some religious groups continue to discriminate against people on a number of bases. The [Canadian] Charter says that the government can’t discriminate on the basis of race, national origin, color, religion, sex, age, or physical ability. Consistent with this is the fact that the government can’t subsidize organizations that discriminate on these grounds either.

We know this because there are examples of the federal government stepping up not funding organizations that violate certain human rights. For example, with the Canada Summer Jobs Grant, the government said “We won’t fund organizations that oppose a woman’s right to choose. Why? Because that’s a fundamental right, and we as a government can’t oppose such a fundamental right because of the Charter.”

If you extend that logic to places of worship that discriminate, then if a place of worship discriminates, they should not receive a permissive tax exemption, or statutory tax exemption, for that matter. They should not be receiving a subsidy from the state.

There are, unfortunately, examples of a place of worship that discriminate. For example, and we explore this in more detail in the report, there was a gay couple that tried to book the Knights of Columbus Hall in the City of Coquitlam. The Knights of Columbus didn’t realize that they were a lesbian couple, and the two women didn’t realize the Knights of Columbus were a Catholic organization.

When the Knights found out that the couple were both women, they cancel the booking and refunded them their booking fee or deposit. The couple took the Knights to court and the case went back and forth. Eventually, the court ruled that the Knights had the right to discriminate against these two women, but also required the Knights to pay compensation because the couple had incurred a significant cost having to reprint of their wedding invitation.

One thing that was interesting about this case was that the Archdiocese of Vancouver, which operated the Hall, and is a Catholic organization, didn’t argue that they did not discriminate. Rather, they argued they had a right to discriminate, in essence declaring, “Yes, we discriminate.” So they are fully committed to discriminating, and as a private entity, they have the right to discriminate in this way.

But then we have a City money to the Archdiocese of Vancouver, which has five properties in Coquitlam. At the time, those five properties, received around $72,000 in permissive tax exemptions in 2004, and in 2005, they received about $75,000 in permissive tax exemptions. What we then have is, in essence, the City of Coquitlam subsidizing places of worship that are overtly discriminatory. That’s a problem.

This is another issue that we wanted to raise with our report, which is the state should not be subsidizing discriminatory activities, either directly or indirectly, through state tax exemptions.

And then there are places of worship that are overtly violating COVID health regulations. There were recently a bunch of places of worship challenging the provincial health regulations in court, and a number of these places of worship have received tax exemptions. What this is then, is the state subsidizing organizations that are endangering lives during a pandemic.

Large religious gatherings in places of worship have been identified as potential super spreaders during the pandemic. There was one church in Korea that was responsible for 36% of all the cases in that country!

Places of worship are particularly susceptible as potential super spreaders because they’re enclosed spaces, with large groups of people in close proximity, meeting for a long duration time. During a religious service, people are talking, singing, and using masks inconsistently. Critically, you also have a large percentage of older folks, who are already at risk of COVID, participating in services.

And yet, there were a number of places of worship arguing for their right to endanger the lives of their congregations in court, all the while they were receiving tax exemptions. For example, in 2019, the Riverside Calvary Chapel received an $11,997 in permissive tax exemptions. They were twice fined for violating COVID regulations. Similarly, the Immanuel Covenant Reformed Church in Abbotsford, received $5,463 in permissive tax exemptions in 2019. The list of recipients who have also violated COVID regulations include the Oaklands Bible Chapel in Victoria.

If the goal of permissive tax exemptions is to support the work of organizations that provide a benefit to the public, it is not in the public’s interest (or benefit) to support private clubs, or organizations that are discriminatory, or to support organizations that overtly undermine public health by violating health orders during a pandemic.

There is a good solution to the issues of permissive tax exemptions that I’ve mentioned. The BCHA is encouraging municipalities to adopt public benefits tests, such that only grant tax exemptions to recipients who provide a benefit to the public. A good benefits test would, among other things, include questions about whether the recipient operates as a private club, or discriminates, or violates health orders and other laws.

We want to make sure that municipalities have been responsible with tax dollars. Statutory tax exemptions are applied automatically, which means that municipalities don’t have a say in them. That’s significant, as these taxes encroach on a municipalities ability to make choices about their community – to have a say in how they raise funds, and even the size of tax exemptions, that is the percentage of the overall budget that is allocated to tax exemptions,

Many municipalities will, when given the choice with PTEs, cap the size of tax exemptions that they grant. For example, the City of Victoria, property tax exemptions can be no more than 1.6% of their budget. That’s the cap. That’s a lot of money. In 2019, PTEs amounted to $640,554 in Victoria.

This is ultimately a question of government autonomy. The automatic nature of STEs strips municipalities of autonomy, of the ability to make choices about how they collect and allocate taxes. Municipalities are in the best position to make decisions about how to best benefit their communities, but automatically applied STEs do not give municipalities the opportunity to decide how best to levy and spend taxes.

I would be remiss if I did not mention commercial operations. When we were doing the research for this report, we found a couple of examples of places of worship that were operating commercial operations. These tended to be things like for-profit parking garages. In these situations, you have a place of worship that’s receiving a tax exemption, but they’re running a business and shouldn’t be receiving such an exemption. After all, the exemptions are designed to support not for profit organizations, not commercial operations.

That’s another example where a good benefits test will serve as a way of catching potential recipients who are operating. We always recommend a benefits test would, including a question that asks something like “are you running a commercial operation? Show us your books or, at least, outline some of your budget, so we know how you operate.”

If folks are interested in learning more, or seeing the scale of permissive and statutory tax exemptions in their municipalities, I would encourage them to read the full ‘A Public Good?’ report. Thanks for chatting.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Phelps Bondaroff.

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2022-05-15

Ask Takudzwa 33: 2020/2021, Bala, and Zimbabwean Humanists

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/09/08

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspective, and more.

Here we talk about developments for secularism in Zimbabwe in 2020/2021, Mubarak Bala, and Zimbabwean humanists.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What have been the developments in 2020/2021 for secularism in Zimbabwe?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: 2020 and 2021 have been difficult years for secularism in Zimbabwe. The African Apostolic Church is a denomination of fundamentalist Christianity that has the majority of rural Zimbabweans who are 70% of the population. They forbid members to get medical help and discourage scientific medicine in favor of prayers from their leaders. They also conduct child marriages with 11 to 14 year old brides getting married into polygamous marriages every year. The worst part is that they are the ruling party ZANU PF’s biggest support base and so they get endorsed by the government, especially during election time and that’s the biggest threat to Zimbabwean secularism.

Jacobsen: What is the growth of the Nones — the atheists, agnostics, and nothing in particulars — in Zimbabwe in 2020/2021?

Mazwienduna: The Zimbabwean secular community continues to grow steadily, with more people joining our online forums every year.

Jacobsen: How are Zimbabwean humanists viewing the case of Mubarak Bala?

Mazwienduna: Zimbabwean Humanists and Atheists are enraged by his arbitrary arrests. They also feel the frustration and helplessness of not being able to do something about it.

Jacobsen: What are some similar cases — less prominent — happening with Zimbabwean humanists as we speak?

Mazwienduna: Fortunately, there are no cases of Humanists getting persecuted or censored in Zimbabwe thanks to our country’s secular law. The only case that poses a threat to secularism is the government’s support for and association with the fundamentalist African Apostolic Church.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

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2022-05-15

Ask Mandisa 70: Celebration and a Growth Mindset

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/25

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Here we talk about a growth mindset, in 2020.

*This was conducted December 14, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, this is an Nth to the Nth Power interview with Mandisa Thomas. So, when are we talking about just ordinary facts of organizational life, people come and go. You run out of supplies, certain things. People need to maintain their talents and skills. Organizations go through fluctuations, in other words. So, what are some things that you’ve learned? Coming up on your tenth anniversary, what are some of the things that you’ve noticed both in the negative, in terms of upkeep of an organization, and in terms of the positive, in terms of seeing that growth trajectory, regardless?

Mandisa Thomas: Yes. So, BN is approaching 10 years as an organization. And wow – it is exhilarating, but also exhausting, because there is a lot of work that goes into running an organization that centers around practical engagement. And when dealing with a community that prides itself on being so intellectual, the organizing and support aspects tend to be overlooked, and even outright ignored. However, a really good part of being in this community, is the people. It’s has also been a great learning journey with fine tuning my people skills. I already have extensive customer service experience, and when I realized that the same principles apply, it wasn’t too hard.

Now, from a nonprofit standpoint, it was definitely a learning lesson for me. Having worked at the CDC (which is a government agency) in addition to my customer service background, I was able to parlay both of those experiences into developing the organization. The challenge after that is maintaining it, and trying to retain dedicated organizers and members. We have people who are initially excited, and are ready to jump in and get involved. But once that excitement wears off which has been the case for quite a few people, then who is left to keep it going? So it can be a challenge at times; for those of us who are bit seasoned as organizers, and who are used to dealing with both the general public and also working on the back end. It can be a challenge for us in dealing with people who don’t have that experience, as well as training them on how to work with us. But overall it really shows, as you said before in our chat; endurance, and long-term commitment.

Jacobsen: Do you think part of that is a growth mindset in the idea that who you are, and what is, are always provisional and, therefore, can be changed, improved, according to context?

Mandisa: Oh, absolutely. Because we’re in a community where change is inevitable, and should be embraced. And in order for our community to grow, we have to know how to engage with people on certain issues, and also just on a basic human level. And there should always room for us to grow as individuals with our connections, however it also teaches you how to set boundaries. You learn who is in it for good reasons and who is not. community-minded reasons. And staying strong and healthy is important for running the organization, where much of the work is on a volunteer basis. And you have to love it in order to do it. I didn’t realize how life-changing my involvement would become. However, I’ve embraced it, and I’m glad I did, because it has helped so many other people.

Jacobsen: What are some other qualities that you keep in mind of a person?

Thomas: Charisma is an important quality to me. I do think that people, especially potential organizers, should be personable in order to engage in this movement. You also have to know how to work with people, and work with them as a team. I am also a person who likes to be exact and punctual, and prefer to work with people who will meet me at least halfway. Those are also qualities/characteristics that I think make a good leader.

Also, I look for reciprocity. I like people who aren’t all about themselves, that they’re doing this work and helping people because it’s the right thing to do. Not because they’re not looking to gain anything significantly over anyone else. Their actions usually match their words, and they tend to go above and beyond as well.

Jacobsen: Mandisa, thank you so much for your time, as usual.

Mandisa: Thank you.

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2022-05-15

Ask Mandisa 69: No Higher-Order Reliance

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/22

Mandisa Thomas, a native of New York City, is the founder and President of Black Nonbelievers, Inc. Although never formally indoctrinated into belief, Mandisa was heavily exposed to Christianity, Black Nationalism, and Islam. As a child she loved reading, and enjoyed various tales of Gods from different cultures, including Greek and Ghanaian. “Through reading these stories and being taught about other cultures at an early age, I quickly noticed that there were similarities and differences between those deities and the God of the Christian Bible. I couldn’t help but wonder what made this God so special that he warrants such prevalence today,” she recalls.

Here we talk about personal issues and realistic dealing with them, in 2020.

*This was conducted November 16, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, you took a trip to New York. You went to kind of deal with some personal issues. And one of the things that are important about the way you are living your new life is one in which you’re just taking the moments as they are, owning them, and then dealing with them head on, as opposed to kind of a lot of North Americans, which is referring to some higher order power to just offset any of their troubles, to keep it off their mind. In other words, they don’t deal with it. So, what are the things you were dealing with in New York in more general terms? How are you dealing with those head on?

Mandisa Thomas: Yes, I was asked by one of my aunts to accompany her for a visit with my mother (her sister), after one of their brothers recently passed away. Apparently at the funeral, my mother approached my aunt, gave her a hug, said she was sorry and finally invited my aunt over to her house. Now, this is significant because there has been a 30-year “feud” between them, mostly on behalf of my mother to work. And so while my aunt was pleasantly surprised by this, she wanted said invitation to be a sit down so that she could ask my mother some questions, and possibly iron out their differences. The main questions being, what exactly is she sorry for, and why did she feel all of this hatred towards her sister for all these years? Since this aunt and I are very close and remained so against my mother’s wishes, She reminded me that I promised to accompany her if that moment of reckoning ever came.

When she brought that up, I asked myself, did I REALLY agreed to this??? But I decide to go through with it. We scheduled this past weekend because that was my best availability. In addition to supporting my aunt, this trip gave me an opportunity to see how I would interact with my mother after all of the work that I have done for myself to overcome the trauma that I endured growing up. Finally, I wanted to see, along with my aunt, if my mother would take responsibility for the mistreatment. Because for years, she has blamed my aunt for the bad relationship between her and I, and we wanted to se if she would own up to any of it.

So, this was a good way to help my aunt get closure. And if there was also an opportunity for them to rebound as sisters, that was even better. I also had a chance hone my leadership skills, and be there as somewhat a neutral party as a mediator. I wasn’t there to bringing my issues with my mother to the forefront, because I wasn’t there for me; I was there for my aunt. So, it was a good opportunity to see if there was truly some change on all of our parts, demonstrate how I’ve been able to move forward in my life, and also how I can help my aunt and other family members.

Jacobsen: And nowhere in the explanation there did you point to a higher order power. You didn’t pray, you didn’t reference some God concept to kind of get you out of it. How do you notice this in the membership, Black Nonbelievers? And we’ve talked about issues of people bringing patriarchal ideas from the religious traditions as attitudes and expectations into Black Nonbelievers. What about the more subtle and soft areas of emotional life that can be tender, hard to get through as you’re going through right now? What do you notice and others who are going through similar circumstances, when they’re still bringing those kind of religious sensibilities into community?

Thomas: What’s happening is there are simply too many people refusing to do that work and take accountability for their actions. Even among many nonbelievers, somehow all of their problems are someone else’s fault. This tends to go hand in hand with religious indoctrination, where there is little to no resolution for that sort of trauma. One of the reasons why I organize around the support aspect and what people go through personally is because, these institutions shape our outlook. They shape our actions. And trying to recover from them is a LOT of work.

So, it can be a challenge for people to recognize when they are projecting and avoiding accountability. And it is hard for many to say, “I was wrong. I acknowledge that I played a part in this,” because it can be seen as a sign of weakness. But I was actually learned at an early age that this was something that I needed to change; that I had to be the one to do it (with the help of me peers and licensed professionals). But this not an example that was set by my mother. She was quick to tell me and my brothers to take responsibility for our actions, but didn’t do it herself. So as an adult with a family, and still overcoming childhood trauma while taking responsibility, I strongly advocate for all parties in any disagreements to do the same. I don’t sit on a pedestal trying to preach to someone about what they should do. I try to help because I’ve been through it. And I’m still going through it, so that peer to peer experience does help.

And again, we don’t encourage looking to divine intervention, because it’s never that simple. Constantly looking to a god, and projecting and placing the blame onto someone else leads to a vicious cycle, and nothing gets better. But when you actually confront the issues head on, get help through other people and other clinical means, it is much more meaningful and rewarding.

And that once you accomplish that, it it hard to go back to accepting the harmful actions of others. I know that my own patience with people like that is now extremely short. You are allowed to remove people from your life who will not do that work, and are not trying to make things better. And sometimes, that can be very difficult. But once you discard the notion that god will heal and put the people in place to do that work, you can actually make sufficient changes to improve your life, and also the lives of people around you.

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2022-05-15

Ask Mandisa 68: Religious Carryover Into Secular Community

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/20

Here we talk about religious identities and privileges brought into the secular communities from those who have left religion in 2020.

*This was conducted October 19, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Ok, so, let’s focus today on difficulties, personal and professional, individuals or organizations, who have not invested in you or your own organization hoping to get some kind of support, financial, media, volunteer, expertise, you name it. Yet, they have had no history prior to that of helping you in any way. I think that’s a really powerful topic. So, you can relate personal experiences if you want, or you can simply speak in general terms. What are the feelings that come up? What do you do? How do you sort boundaries if you need them?

Mandisa Thomas: There is a certain expectation for people to ask for help when establishing a community-based organization. And even though BN provides mostly networking and peer support, because we are a nonprofit, there are opportunities for people to get involved and volunteer. And it’s definitely important to donate so that we can expand our resources. However, because we are an organization that focuses on black people, we get a lot of folks coming from religious backgrounds, still maintaining a religious mindset and a patriarchal mindset, which leaves us at an imbalance of working harder to sustain ourselves.

Recently, I had an experience with someone who is coming out of religious leadership as a pastor. They are still trying to keep their pastor’s status, but now in the secular community. They have never financially contributed to us (though they do have their own source of income), yet they’re looking to the organization – me in particular – to boost their profile for their own personal gain. And this has always been very difficult and exhausting, because we often have to do deal with people who ask for more than what we can provide and definitely more than what they’ve invested in us. And I completely understand that everyone isn’t able to contribute financially. But what needs to known is that in order for us to provide these resources and support, we also need it in return. And even the smallest financial donations help a lot. Also, we often ask for our members who have benefitted from us to give back so that we can continue to help others in the same way. In fact, that’s how many organizations frame their fundraising efforts. It can be a tough because again, we want to provide that support. But we must also consider some individuals’ motivations and their intentions carefully.

Jacobsen: What about if it’s hard to discern that motivation?

Thomas: Sometimes, it can be difficult because the approaches are very subtle. It starts with those individuals asking how can they help, and say what they think are the right things. But I discern by actions, or lack thereof. If people are constantly asking this question with no follow up, that is a red flag. Also, when people lead with the “how can I be ‘put on'” questions, and requiring all of the labor from you, that is suspicious as well.

And, I feel bad at times, because again, we want to help as many people as possible. However, it is necessary, but as someone in leadership full time, we have to eliminate those who don’t have the best intentions. There are a lot of things that we can take from the religious community when it comes to engagement, but something that we can do differently is set important boundaries and limits. We can be as welcoming as possible, but if people are not reciprocating, and adding more to your workload than absolutely necessary, then letting them go is the right decision.

Jacobsen: When people give up the God concept, especially as traditionally defined, they’re giving up a supernatural helper that leaves them vulnerable to other influences. But it also can empower them if they take that responsibility on board. But by taking on the responsibility, they have all that extra uncertainty too. Do you think that might be both a loss and a strength of the secular communities when that happens? So, they give up the magical thinking, the childish thinking, and the ‘support’ that didn’t really support while having to take on that extra responsibility individually to gain that experience, and trust their kinds of observation and critical thinking skills, for people to discern those who have good motivations. Those who don’t, and where mutual benefit might lie in the one that’s reaching out for some kind of support.

Thomas: Indeed, there are many people who leave religion, yet still carry that with notion of divine intervention with them. And as a result, they still look for others to solve their problems, instead of either doing it for themselves, or even meeting people halfway. On the flip side, compels some to feel as if they have to be one leading people to that “promised land” and therefore, being a god themselves. It’s unfortunate, because it is a byproduct of the conditioning, and there are certainly those who don’t want to let that go. And I think the secular community sometimes models this unintentionally; when it comes to having “holy” figures who are incapable of being and doing any wrong. Or there’s still very little accountability for these individuals. We have indeed come a long way with correcting that, but we still have a long way to go. Also, it’s an learning/unlearning and healing process for people overcoming religious trauma. Which can be hard, but carrying that baggage can actually be harmful to others.

So, it’s important that we offer a caring and nurturing environment, while also holding people accountable to work on themselves. There are no magic solutions; it takes work. The most important thing is to let those people know that they have support, and that they don’t need to go at it alone.

Jacobsen: Mandisa, thank you so much for your time today.

Thomas: Thank you.

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2022-05-15

Ask Mandisa 67: Symbols and Systems

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/18

Here we talk about symbols, systems, and controversy in 2020.

*This was conducted July 6, 2020.*

Scott Jacobsen: So, you came across a quote. So, I will give a colloquial backing of that. I will let you do the proper quoting of it. So, I mean, the issue in America is landmarks are being defaced, taken down. But there are different issues, more substantive, fundamental issues rather than symbolic to be addressed. So, what was the quote? What’s the context? And why is that distinction between the symbolism as opposed to the socioeconomics infrastructure important?

Mandisa Thomas: Yes, I’m looking at it on Twitter now. It says, “We are moving racist symbols, but we aren’t asking to remove a racist system. We are not having the conversation right now.” This is significant because there are now a number of companies that are signing on to the Black Lives Matter campaign. They’re looking to make changes that shows that they care about the black community, and show that they are listening to the demands that are being made – all across the country, and around the world. We are witnessing symbols and monuments to racism being removed; for example, the University of Pennsylvania has taken steps to remove the statue of George Whitfield, an evangelical, pro slavery minister. So, there is now a lot of reconsideration about these symbols, especially in the United States, that are reflective of oppression the black community.

Now, while this is a start, it also doesn’t address the fact that the racist institutions that those people are responsible for are still in place. There is still a severe imbalance of power in place against the black community, and it is going to take time to rectify that. It seems like removing symbols is a quick fix; putting a band-aid on a problem that has been long-standing and the solution has not provided in full.

Jacobsen: Now, if we dig a bit deeper, especially within the American context, where Black Lives Matter was started by three black women and where the majority of the protests are ongoing. There are issues of people simply taking a symbolic approach. On the one hand, you have people who are socio-politically left. They’re tearing down or questioning tearing down or defacing statues of Teddy Roosevelt or something like this, then that gives an excuse to not always, but typically, more regressive forces on the sociopolitical right who then will say, “Okay, if you can do that to someone we revere, we will do that to someone you revere.” Then there’s a tearing down of, recently, a statue of the abolitionist and women’s rights activist, former slave, the late Frederick Douglass. So, if we’re digging deeper into this issue, taking a bigger bite out of it, what’s the importance of making sure everyone is clear that we’re focusing on these less visible, non-landmark structural issues?

Thomas: Of course, whenever there’s an action, there’s a reaction. Many people, mostly Americans who are not as well informed about the history, will take offense and look to retaliate. So they start thinking, “Well, maybe WE can take down black statues!” So, the fear kicks in, and unfortunately we’re still dealing with people who are reactive when it comes to history and heritage. And the example of Frederick Douglass, who was an abolitionist as you said, is hardly the in the same category, because worked with a number of anti-slavery organizations.So, monuments to Douglass don’t deserve to be torn down, because he was not responsible for any oppressive regimes. But what I think those people are really scared of is the fact that they need to be honest with themselves about the issues at hand, which are correcting racist policies, and socio-economic conditions. There were a lot of black folks, who lost their lives and livelihoods at the hands of the American system. So, on the surface, while people are looking at things like the current administration, we see those particular statements made on Twitter, and we take those into account. Whether we laugh or get outraged, it is important that we are not completely distracted by said administration. These things can be worked on simultaneously. Digging deeper at the roots and attacking them will be a lot for work, but it is necessary.

Jacobsen: Mandisa for our millionth conversation, thank you so, so much.

Thomas: Thank you.

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2022-05-15

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 10: The Human Rights Skyfall

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/17

Omar Shakir, J.D., M.A. works as the Israel and Palestine Director for Human Rights Watch. He investigates a variety of human rights abuses within the occupied Palestinian territories/Occupied Palestinian Territories or oPt/OPT (Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and Israel. He earned a B.A. in International Relations from Stanford University, an M.A. in Arab Studies from Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Affairs, and a J.D. from Stanford Law School. He is bilingual in Arabic and English. Previously, he was a Bertha Fellow at the Center for Constitutional Rights with a focus on U.S. counterterrorism policies, which included legal representation of Guantanamo detainees. He was the Arthur R. and Barbara D. Finberg Fellow (2013-2014) for Human Rights Watch with investigations, during this time, into the human rights violations in Egypt, e.g., the Rab’a massacre, which is one of the largest killings of protestors in a single day ever. Also, he was a Fulbright Scholar in Syria.

Language of the oPt/OPT is recognized in the work of the OHCHR, Amnesty International, Oxfam International, United Nations, World Health Organization, International Labor Organization, UNRWA, UNCTAD, and so on. Some see the Israeli-Palestinian issue as purely about religion. Thus, this matters to freethought. These ongoing interviews explore this issue in more depth.

Here we continue with the 10th part in our series of conversations with coverage in the middle of middle of July, 2020, to the middle of September, 2020, for the Israeli-Palestinian issue. With the deportation of Shakir, this follows in line with state actions against others, including Amnesty International staff member Laith Abu Zeyad when attempting to see his mother dying from cancer (Amnesty International, 2019; Zeyad, 2019; Amnesty International, 2020), United States Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib and United States Congresswoman Ilhan Omar who were subject to being barred from entry (Romo, 2019), Professor Noam Chomsky who was denied entry (Hass, 2010), and Dr. Norman Finkelstein who was deported in the past (Silverstein, 2008). Shakir commented in an opinion piece:

Over the past decade, authorities have barred from entry MIT professor Noam Chomsky, U.N. special rapporteurs Richard Falk and Michael Lynk, Nobel Peace Prize winner Mairead Maguire, U.S. human rights lawyers Vincent Warren and Katherine Franke, a delegation of European Parliament members, and leaders of 20 advocacy groups, among others, all over their advocacy around Israeli rights abuses. Israeli and Palestinian rights defenders have not been spared. Israeli officials have smeared, obstructed and sometimes even brought criminal charges against them. (Shakir, 2019)

Now, based on the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court and the actions of the Member State of the United Nations, Israel, he, for this session and some prior sessions, works from Amman, Jordan. Originally, he worked from Tel Aviv, Israel.

*Interview conducted on September 25, 2020. The previous interview conducted on July 23, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With regard to some of the activists, there were some issues regarding arbitrary arrests by the Hamas Authority in the use of the freedom of expression rights (Rasgon, 2020). What is the current status of the case? How did it escalate over time?

Omar Shakir: In early April, a group of Gaza activists engaged in a Zoom chat with Israeli citizens (United Nations Human Rights Council, 2020).[1] They were speaking about the situation in Gaza and some of the challenges they face. A few days after when news of this event became public in Gaza, there was some pushback on social media. Hamas authorities detained seven of the activists, who participated in that Zoom chat (Palestinian Centre for Human Rights, 2020). Several of the activists were released in a matter of days. Two have remained detained for over five months, as of this recording. The men were being held largely in this period in pre-trial detention facing interrogations. Last week, in around mid-September, Hamas authorities charged the two activists who were detained, as well as one who was released on bail, with a charge under the PLO’s revolution code, military law, for weakening the revolutionary spirit. This is a charge that Hamas authorities have used before as a way of detaining critics and opponents over their peaceful expression. The arrests of these activists and the ongoing detention of two of them is a part of Hamas’ practice of systematic detaining of individuals based on their peaceful free expression (Human Rights Watch, 2016; Human Rights Watch, 2018a; Harkov, 2011).

Jacobsen: Other larger news had to do with the Israel-United Arab Emirates normalization agreement (Keleman, 2020) or the Abraham Accords (Goldberg, 2020) peace agreement. How did this come about? How is this being discussed in some of the areas you’re covering?

Shakir: Israel has long had long relations with a number of Arab states, particularly in the Gulf. This agreement with the UAE makes the more secretive relationship public. It was marketed as a step in normalized relations in return for freezing annexation (U.S. Department of State: Bureau of Near East Affairs; Bowen, 2020; Fishere, 2020; Al-Jazeera, 2020a; Al-Jazeera, 2020b; Holland, & Spetalnick, 2020). Prime Minister Netanyahu immediately made clear that the deal is only a temporary pause on plans for annexing additional parts of the West Bank (Krauss, 2020). Of course, the UAE as well as Bahrain, who signed their own agreement with Israel, have had de facto relations with Israel, but, of course, much of their region – with the exception of Jordan and Egypt – had been part of a consensus to hold off on formally normalizing relations with Israel until there was an end to the occupation and a solution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. Obviously, this agreement broke that consensus. Of course, there are reports of additional agreements. On the ground, the impact has been limited. Annexation has been frequently raised by the Israeli government, but we have a reality where the Israeli government has been in control for over 50 years across the oPt, de facto annexing these areas, and exerting control (Human Rights Watch, 2017). Formal annexation would likely have meant little change on the ground, at least in the short-run. But for the Israeli government, it is a diplomatic achievement; in the sense, Prime Minister Netanyahu and his supporters can say, as opposed to previous agreements, that we were able to reach an agreement with an Arab state in the absence of having made any sorts of concessions or changes to their practices with regards to Palestinians on the ground.

Jacobsen: There is a Palestinian doctoral student in engineering who needs to leave from the Gaza Strip to Tel Aviv to receive a visa for a European state where he is meant to conduct research (Hass, 2020). The research would begin on October 1^st. What are some of the difficulties around the case?

Shakir: Israel, for decades now, have kept sharp restrictions for travel on Palestinians in Gaza (Human Rights Watch, 2020a). For 13 years now, the Israeli government has maintained a closure on the Gaza Strip (Ibid.). The closure entails a generalized travel ban, which means, presumptively, Palestinians cannot leave Gaza through the Erez Crossing, their main crossing to the other point of the oPt, the West Bank, and abroad, unless they fall with a list of narrow humanitarian exceptions (Ibid.). Egypt has contributed to the closure with its own restrictions on its border crossing with Gaza. There is no formal exemption for students that are seeking to travel abroad. Sometimes, students manage with, say interventions of European embassies, to secure rarely issued permits. Sometimes, Palestinians leave by Egypt, who sometimes opens its crossing with Gaza (Human Rights Watch, 2017). But there are many instances where Palestinians are unable to leave and are delayed in starting semesters or missing it altogether. Human Rights Watch has documented cases of this sort. Israeli authorities bar Palestinians from Gaza and the West Bank from using Ben Gurion Airport without a rarely issued permit from the Israeli army. The primary outlet for Palestinians to travel abroad is via Jordan. But to get there from Gaza, you need a permit to exit, as well as a Jordanian “No Objection” letter, which states that Jordan does not object to using their territory for transit. Of course, the closure has become even more restrictive with the pandemic. Whereas in 2019, travel via Erez was a small fraction, 1% to 3%, of what it was before the June 2007 tightening of the closure, we’ve seen, since March 2020, that fraction of a number reduced to a further fraction, 1% or 2% of before March 2020, which itself was 1% or 2% of 2000 (Gisha 2021a; Human Rights Watch, 2018b; Gisha, 2021b). The few that are being permitted to exit are those in need of urgent medical care and their companions, largely to go to East Jerusalem or to Ramallah, but almost none outside of that. This case is part of these larger restrictions on movement.

Jacobsen: What is the progress on the annexations as well as the building of further illegal settlements?

Shakir: In terms of annexation, as part of an agreement with the UAE, the Israeli government has put plans to formally annex additional parts of the West Bank on hold (al-Mughrabi & Williams, 2020; Miller, 2020). There have been media reports as to how long that hold will take place that vary from a few months to a few years (Landau & Reuters, 2020; Kaplan, 2020). But as of now, annexation doesn’t appear imminent. Certainly, we will wait until U.S. elections and potentially another round of Israeli elections. In terms of settlement expansion, that is, of course, a trend that has continued in 2020 (Shapiro, 2020). We saw in early 2020, in January and February, the government issue plans, issue tenders, as well as announce plans for a range of different settlements (ACAPS, 2020). The figures from the first two months of 2020 almost reached – in fact, exceeded in publishing tenders and advancing plans – all of the plans of 2019, according to the NGO Peace Now (Ibid.).[2] Israel continues to entrench its illegal settlement enterprise. Those plans have not stopped during the pandemic.

Jacobsen: There was or is an academic who specializes in human rights named Dr. Valentina Azarova (Bard College Dublin, 2021). This is more close to home for me in terms of the University of Toronto or in Canada. One of the leading institutions of higher learning and research. There are some reports that she was denied a job. There are other reports that the job was there and then it was an offer that was rescinded. Those have different implications in terms of how they’re framed (CAUT, 2020; MEE Staff, 2020; B’nai Brith Canada, 2020). The controversy appears to centre around the fact that Azarova was documenting human rights abuses by Israel as a state (Deif, 2020; Page, 2020). As well, apparently, she has a strong human rights law background and reputation. What is the status of this particular case? What seems to be the fact of the matter?

Shakir: For full disclosure, one of my colleagues at Human Rights Watch is a partner of the person in question. What the press reports appear to indicate, the University of Toronto withdrew, rescinded, an offer that was made to a scholar to take over the position of heading their international human rights clinic. They apparently did so at the behest of a donor who objected to the candidate’s scholarship, which included work on the Israeli government’s violations of international law (Gessen, 2021). If this is true, it, certainly, goes to the heart of the university’s integrity and the space for academic freedom. Human Rights Watch has worked with this program before (Ibid.). We’ve had a number of interns that were, in fact, coming from the university. We have partnered together with them on a number of projects. Certainly, this is something of significant concern to all of us who care about academic freedom, including those of us at Human Rights Watch. There have been significant letters of support on behalf of this scholar, including a letter with 1,200 signatures including current and former special rapporteurs. It is concerning to all of us. It is important to see that this is handled transparently, that there is accountability and that the university conduct an independent external review and make its findings public. Universities should stand guard against attacks on academic freedom and should not take part in silencing scholars. No one should pay a price for exposing human rights violations by any country, including Israel.

Jacobsen: Ahmad Erekat was killed at a checkpoint (Najah, 2020; Human Rights Watch, 2020b; Masri, 2020; Adalah, 2020). What happened at the checkpoint? Why is the family not able to bury him?

Shakir: Israel has a long track record of using excessive force in policing situations (Human Rights Watch, 2019a). Human Rights Watch investigated a particular instance that took place in late June of this year in which a Palestinian vehicle at a checkpoint in the West Bank, as it approached, sharply swerved into a booth, where several Israeli soldiers stood (Human Rights Watch, 2020b). An individual emerged from the car, unarmed and, as soon as he did and apparently not approaching the officers, he was fatally shot and killed (Ibid.). The Israeli government has characterized this as a car ramming attack (Patel, 2020). The family has denied that account and said that it was likely caused by a malfunction of the car or an accident (Ibid.). Human Rights Watch investigated the killing (Human Rights Watch, 2020b). We determined that, when he emerged from the vehicle, he did not pose a significant threat to the life of the officers, making the killing apparently unlawful. The Israeli government has not indicated that it is investigating the case. In fact, now, since the killing for a period of three months, the Israeli government has held the body (Ibid.). The Israeli government has held the bodies of Palestinians killed in what they consider security incidents. There was a lawsuit filed on behalf of the family requesting the body be returned for burial. The Israeli government in return announced a decision that they will be withholding the bodies of all Palestinians killed in security incidents, as a form of leverage to secure the bodies of two Israeli soldiers who, apparently, have been held by the Hamas authorities in Gaza, since they were presumed to be killed in the 2014 hostilities (AFP, 2020). A Palestinian human rights group says that about 67 bodies of Palestinians are being held by the Israeli government (B’tselem, 2019). Of course, withholding bodies marks a serious violation of international law, both the bodies of Israeli soldiers held by Hamas and those held by the Israeli government of Palestinians, including those who had involvement in any armed group (Al-Haq, 2018).

Jacobsen: What is the status of lockdowns with regards to Covid within Israel?

Shakir: The Israeli government had an initial lockdown that took place from about late March until May (Ayyub, 2020). The government, for most of the summer, largely opened up things inside Israel. They maintained, of course, restrictions on travel into the country, but the number of cases within Israel has been on the rise (Goldenberg & Heller, 2020). So, over the last week and going forward, the Israeli government, in the context of a number of Jewish holidays, they have instituted a lockdown, which includes a variety of restrictions in terms of venues that are open (BBC News, 2020a). Obviously, there are exceptions to those restrictions, but a number of businesses are closed (BBC News, 2020b). There are some restrictions, as well, in terms of activities that can place (Heller, 2020). There are now also cases of community transmission of the coronavirus in the Gaza Strip with the first cases of community transmission emerging in August (MacLeod, 2020). We have seen Hamas authorities institute a lockdown as well—broad-based at first, but more targeted of late (Akram, 2020). In the West Bank, Palestinians have been dealing with the community transmission of the coronavirus (Al-Jazeera, 2020c). The PA has taken a series of measures focused on more localized restrictions and lockdowns (OCHA, 2020).

Jacobsen: The United High Commissioner, Michelle Bachelet, made a statement about the lifting of the blockade of Gaza imposed by Israel, “The blockade, which contravenes international law, has conclusively failed to deliver security or peace for Israelis and Palestinians, and should urgently be lifted” (OHCHR, 2020).[3] Although, this is helpful and noteworthy and adds to the many, many years of speaking out against the blockade. Does this form of public statement, by even the U.N. High Commissioner, make any inroads or impact on how the discussion proceeds?

Shakir: Absolutely, I think statements are quite important. I think it is easy for folks to forget that Israel has, essentially, reduced Gaza to an open-air prison exacerbated by Egyptian restrictions (Amnesty International, n.d.). It is easy, years later, to accept that as normal. Every time there are armed hostilities, people forget about the context of closure, in which the majority of the population are barred from traveling unless they fit within a range of narrow exemptions, for example, if they manage to get a permit for urgent medical treatment. I think statements are important, because it is easy to forget in the day-to-day, with the annexation or escalation of particular hostilities, about the context of closure, which is really at the heart of the violations of the rights of Palestinians, not just to freedom of movement, but also to access to health (Human Rights Watch, 2019b; Human Rights Watch, 2021). Also when it comes to restrictions in terms of goods entering the country, they underly the economic woes of the population, where 80% of Gaza’s two million residents rely on humanitarian aid (UNRWA, n.d.). At the end of the day, the keys are in Israel’s hands. Egypt has some ability to help alleviate the situation with its crossing, but Israel, as the one that controls the movement of people and goods, the airspace, and access to the territorial waters, blocks the building of an airport and seaport for those in Gaza, continues to manage the population registry responsible for issuing I.D. cards, controls even the VAT, controls the no-go zone between Gaza and Israel, has effective control (Middle East Policy Council, n.d.; Al-Jazeera, 2021; The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2021). It is important that statements continue to be issued and that countries prioritize this in their bilateral relations with Israel and push for ending the closure. Because until these unlawful and sweeping restrictions are lifted, we are going to continue to see tensions and hostilities there. The closure is really the central fact that accounts for the core of the misery of people in Gaza, effectively caged in an open-air prison.

Jacobsen: How has Israel, recently, in September halted some projects for Palestinians (Agence-France Presse, 2020)?

Shakir: Israel controls the entry and exit of people and goods to Gaza. Israel is able to control everything from how much fuel enters to how power plants run and how far fishermen can fish in the sea. Israel, for example, restricts entry of what it calls “dual-entry goods,” which are goods that, essentially, could be used for military purpose (International Trade Administration, 2020). But, under the Israeli definition, that includes x-ray technology, communications technology, gas tanks, construction material, which are essential for the everyday functioning of society. Israel sometimes decides to accelerate those restrictions (Gisha, 2020). For example, in August after some Palestinians launching incendiary balloons into Israel, Israel punitively restricted access for fishermen off the sea and reduced the entry of many goods, food and medicines (Shehada & Mahmoud, 2020). They have long been limiting the exports of those, including fuel important for the operation of Gaza’s one power plant, whose capacity has been significantly reduced by Israeli bombardment (Khoury & Zikri, 2020). The already limited quantity of electricity was further reduced amid these measures that were taken for a period of several weeks in August (Ibid.). As such, international projects all effectively require Israel’s approval. Egypt also plays a role, particularly on movement, but, even there, Israel plays the central role, for example controlling movement between Gaza and the West Bank, which are part of a single territory, as even the Israeli government has recognized.

Jacobsen: If we take a step back on Israel and Palestine, what are some of the more positive progressions since July towards resolution of parts of the conflict?

Shakir: It is difficult, in the circumstances we’re facing–not only the closure of Gaza, but the daily reality of entrenching a separate and unequal reality for Palestinians, a system of discrimination across the entire area Israel controls–it is difficult on the ground to see much, in terms of the situation and in the midst of the pandemic, to see signs of the situation improving. Certainly, one recent development that bears importance is Hamas and the Fatah-led PA have been in negotiations around some sort of reconciliation, but, again, those of us have seen these reports periodically (Al-Jazeera, 2020d). They have not led to changes on the ground. But certainly, any agreement between the two rival leading Palestinian factions could spell a significant step in reducing separation between the West Bank and Gaza. They also underlying tensions and arbitrary arrests between both authorities (Human Rights Watch, 2019c). While formal annexation would not likely have changed things on the ground, at least, initially, the fact that that is, at least, temporarily off the table helps protect against some of what that move could have meant. But I don’t see these as necessarily signs of hope. I think the hope that one might take is more looking at the ways in which human rights activists on the ground continue to do documentation and the way everyday people continue to challenge the deep oppression, especially by the Israeli government of Palestinians. But those are processes not likely to lead to changes in the short-term, but, one would hope, maybe in the medium to long run.

Jacobsen: From the U.S., there were sanctions against the International Criminal Court. How does this make the context of prosecuting international crimes more difficult and reduces capacity in which to call out violations and prosecute them properly, to enact justice in other words?

Shakir: I think the International Criminal Court, since its creation and establishment in 2002, has played a critical role as a court of last resort. It’s there particularly for situations where there are longstanding, serious abuses taking place and where the outlets for justice in-country have been blocked. Certainly, that’s the case with Israel and Palestine. There has been serial impunity for serious crimes by both Israeli and Palestinian authorities. When you look at the expansion of illegal settlements, when you look at use of force, excessive force, indiscriminate force at times by both Israelis and Palestinians, particularly in Gaza, when you look at policies in the West Bank, e.g., home demolitions, or the discrimination that underlies everyday life for Palestinians, it is quite clear that there are very serious crimes. The Israeli government has, at the highest level, sanctioned these policies. There is a whitewash machinery when it comes to investigating these crimes in Israel. It is the exact situation the International Criminal Court was created to combat. Of course, in response to the Court’s initial steps towards investigations in Palestine, by both Israelis and Palestinians, and in Afghanistan by the U.S., the U.S. has taken steps to attack and even sanction the prosecutor herself, as well as other members of the team of the International Criminal Court (United Nations, 2020). These are very dangerous moves. It highlights the contempt for the rule of law by the Trump Administration. We have seen many statements of support by other countries for the Court, highlighting the importance of the independence of the prosecutor and the ICC’s role as a court of last resort. With cases like this, involving abuses by strong states, they go to the heart of the credibility of an institution like the court. If the ICC can’t pursue these cases, every country that doesn’t want to face accountability at the International Criminal Court or bodies, will have a good argument. They can say, “If you’re making a special rule for powerful states, why should I have to play along with this institution?” I think it is important the Court continues to do its job and states concerned about the rule of law internationally should support the Court.

Jacobsen: Omar, as always, thank you so much.

Shakir: Take care, Scott, talk soon.

Previous Sessions (Chronological Order)

Interview with Omar Shakir – Israel and Palestine Director, Human Rights Watch (Middle East and North Africa Division)

HRW Israel and Palestine (MENA) Director on Systematic Methodology and Universal Vision

Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine) on Common Rights and Law Violations

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 1 – Recent Events

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 2 – Demolitions

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 3 – November-December: Deportation from Tel Aviv, Israel for Human Rights Watch Israel and Palestine Director

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 4 – Uninhabitable: The Viability of Gaza Strip’s 2020 Unlivability

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 5 – The Trump Peace Plan: Is This the “The Deal of the Century,” or Not?

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 6 – Tripartite Partition: The Israeli Elections, the International Criminal Court (ICC), and SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 7 – New Heights to the Plight and the Fight: Covid-19, Hegemony, Restrictions, and Rights

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 8 (w/ Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967) – Annexation, International Law, Occupation, Rights, and Settlements

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 9 – When Rain is Law and Justice is Dry Land

Addenda

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) Addendum: Some History and Contextualization of Rights

Other Resources Internal to Canadian Atheist

Interview with Dr. Norman Finkelstein on Gaza Now

Extensive Interview with Gideon Levy

Interview with Musa Abu Hashash – Field Researcher (Hebron District), B’Tselem

Interview with Gideon Levy – Columnist, Haaretz

Interview with Dr. Usama Antar – Independent Political Analyst (Gaza Strip, Palestine)

Interview with Wesam Ahmad – Representative, Al-Haq (Independent Palestinian Human Rights Organization)

Extensive Interview with Professor Richard Falk – Fmr. (5th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with Professor John Dugard – Fmr. (4th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with S. Michael Lynk – (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Conversation with John Dugard, Richard Falk, and S. Michael Lynk on the Role of the Special Rapporteur, and the International Criminal Court & Jurisdiction

To resolve the Palestinian question we need to end colonialism

Trump’s Colonial Solution to the Question of Palestine Threatens the Foundations of International Law

Dr. Norman Finkelstein on the International Criminal Court

References

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Deif, F. (2020, September 29). A Human Rights Controversy at the University of Toronto. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/09/29/human-rights-controversy-university-toronto.

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Gisha. (2020, September 1). Gaza Up Close. Retrieved from https://features.gisha.org/gaza-up-close/.

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Goldenberg, T. & Heller, A. (2020, September 13). Israel to set new nationwide lockdown as virus cases surge. Retrieved from https://www.ctvnews.ca/world/israel-to-set-new-nationwide-lockdown-as-virus-cases-surge-1.5102789.

Harkov, L. (2011, April 6). HRW: PA, Hamas abuse Palestinian journalists. Retrieved from https://www.jpost.com/breaking-news/hrw-pa-hamas-abuse-palestinian-journalists.

Hass, A. (2010, May 16). Noam Chomsky Denied Entry Into Israel and West Bank. Retrieved from https://www.haaretz.com/1.5121279.

Hass, A. (2020, March 15). The Stubborn Ph.D. Student From the Gaza Strip. Retrieved from https://www.haaretz.com/opinion/.premium-the-stubborn-ph-d-student-from-the-gaza-strip-1.9619285.

Heller, J. (2020, September 3). Israel announces partial national lockdown after coronavirus surge. Retrieved from https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-israel-idUSKBN25U2T1.

Holland, S. & Spetalnick, M. (2020, September 14). In break with past, UAE and Bahrain forge ties with Israel at White House. Retrieved from https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-israel-gulf-usa-idUKKBN2660LB.

Human Rights Watch. (2021, April 27). Abusive Israeli Policies Constitute Crimes of Apartheid, Persecution. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/04/27/abusive-israeli-policies-constitute-crimes-apartheid-persecution.

Human Rights Watch. (2017, June 4). Israel: 50 Years of Occupation Abuses. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/news/2017/06/04/israel-50-years-occupation-abuses.

Human Rights Watch. (2018b, February 13). Israel: Record-Low in Gaza Medical Permits. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/news/2018/02/13/israel-record-low-gaza-medical-permits.

Human Rights Watch. (2020b, September 14). Israel: Release Body of Slain Palestinian. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/news/2020/09/14/israel-release-body-slain-palestinian.

Human Rights Watch. (2019a). Israel Palestine: Events of 2019. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2020/country-chapters/israel/palestine.

Human Rights Watch. (2020a). Israel and Palestine Events of 2020. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/world-report/2021/country-chapters/israel/palestine.

Human Rights Watch. (2016, August 29). Palestine: Crackdown on Journalists, Activists. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/news/2016/08/30/palestine-crackdown-journalists-activists.

Human Rights Watch. (2019c, May 29). Palestine: No Letup in Arbitrary Arrests, Torture. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/05/29/palestine-no-letup-arbitrary-arrests-torture.

Human Rights Watch. (2019b, December 17). Q&A: Born Without Civil Rights. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/news/2019/12/17/qa-born-without-civil-rights.

Human Rights Watch. (2018a, October 23). Two Authorities, One Way, Zero Dissent. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/report/2018/10/23/two-authorities-one-way-zero-dissent/arbitrary-arrest-and-torture-under.

Human Rights Watch. (2017, April 2). Unwilling or Unable: Israeli Restrictions on Access to and from Gaza for Human Rights Workers. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/report/2017/04/02/unwilling-or-unable/israeli-restrictions-access-and-gaza-human-rights-workers.

International Trade Administration. (2020, September 14). Israel – Country Commercial Guide. Retrieved from https://www.trade.gov/knowledge-product/israel-us-export-controls.

Kaplan, F. (2020, September 15). A Big Deal but Not a Peace Deal. Retrieved from https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2020/09/trump-israel-uae-bahrain-deal.html.

Keleman, M. (2020, September 15). Abraham Accords Fall Short Of Becoming ‘The Deal Of The Century’. Retrieved from https://www.npr.org/2020/09/15/913246520/abraham-accords-fall-short-of-becoming-the-deal-of-the-century.

Khoury, J. & Zikri, A.B. (2020, August 18). Gaza’s Only Power Plant Shuts Down After Israel Cuts Fuel Imports. Retrieved from https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/.premium-gaza-s-only-power-plant-shuts-down-after-israel-cuts-fuel-imports-1.9082294.

Krauss, J. (2020, August 14). Netanyahu insists Israeli annexation halt under diplomatic deal with UAE is only temporary. Retrieved from https://www.adn.com/nation-world/2020/08/14/netanyahu-insists-israeli-annexation-halt-under-diplomatic-deal-with-uae-is-only-temporary/.

Landau, N. & Reuters. (2020, August 13). Israel Suspends West Bank Annexation in Deal to Normalize Relations With the UAE. Retrieved from https://www.haaretz.com/israel-news/with-trump-s-help-israel-and-the-uae-reach-historic-deal-to-normalize-relations-1.9070687.

MacLeod, M. (2020, August 13). Massive outbreaks in Israeli schools a ‘cautionary tale’ for Canada. Retrieved from https://www.ctvnews.ca/health/coronavirus/massive-outbreaks-in-israeli-schools-a-cautionary-tale-for-canada-1.5062834.

Masri, D.A. (2020, August 3). Ahmad Erekat, Eyad al-Hallaq: The Latest Victims of Israel’s Shoot-to-Kill Policy. Retrieved from https://www.palestine-studies.org/en/node/1650427.

MEE Staff. (2020, September 17). University of Toronto rescinds job offer to academic over Israel criticism. Retrieved from https://www.middleeasteye.net/news/university-toronto–job-offer-academic-Israel-criticism.

Middle East Policy Council. (n.d.). Egypt Criticized for Gaza Blockade. Retrieved from https://mepc.org/commentary/egypt-criticized-gaza-blockade.

Miller, A.D. (2020, August 19). Opinion: Israel And UAE’s Accord Is A Big Win, But Don’t Overplay It. Retrieved from https://www.npr.org/2020/08/19/903887415/opinion-israel-and-uaes-accord-is-a-big-win-but-don-t-overplay-it.

Najah, E. (2020, August 14). I Lost My Son in a Hail of Bullets at an Israeli Checkpoint. Retrieved from https://www.thenation.com/article/world/ahmad-erekat/.

OCHA. (2020, September 22). Occupied Palestinian Territory (oPt): COVID-19 Emergency Situation Report No. 18. Retrieved from https://reliefweb.int/sites/reliefweb.int/files/resources/sitrep_18_covid_19.pdf.

OHCHR. (2020, September 14). In her global human rights update, Bachelet calls for urgent action to heighten resilience and protect people’s rights. Retrieved from https://www.ohchr.org/EN/NewsEvents/Pages/DisplayNews.aspx?NewsID=26226.

Page, M. (2021, April 28). University of Toronto’s Leadership Draws Fire Over Academic Freedom. Retrieved from https://www.hrw.org/news/2021/04/28/university-torontos-leadership-draws-fire-over-academic-freedom.

Palestinian Centre for Human Rights. (2020, September 24). PCHR Demands Immediate Release of Persons Detained for Peace Activities in the Gaza Strip. Retrieved from https://www.pchrgaza.org/en/pchr-demands-immediate-release-of-persons-detained-for-peace-activities-in-the-gaza-strip/.

Patel, Y. (2020, July 30). Ahmad Erekat’s family is still trying to get his body returned. Retrieved from https://mondoweiss.net/2020/07/ahmad-erekats-family-is-still-trying-to-get-his-body-returned/.

Rasgon, A. (2020, September 24). Gaza Peace Activists Face Prison for Holding Video Call With Israelis. Retrieved from https://www.nytimes.com/2020/09/24/world/middleeast/gaza-zoom-activists-palestinian.html.

RefWorld. (2017, November 1). Freedom of the Press 2017 – West Bank and Gaza Strip. Retrieved from https://www.refworld.org/docid/59fc67afa.html.

Romo, V. (2019, August 15). Reps. Omar And Tlaib Barred From Visiting Israel After Trump Supports A Ban. Retrieved from https://www.npr.org/2019/08/15/751430877/reps-omar-and-tlaib-barred-from-visiting-israel-after-trump-insists-on-ban/.

Shakir, O. (2019, April 18). Israel wants to deport me for my human rights work. Retrieved from https://www.washingtonpost.com/opinions/2019/04/18/israel-wants-deport-me-my-human-rights-work/.

Shapiro, D.B. (2020, August 11). Annexation Isn’t Dead. A Desperate Trump Could Bring It Back to Life.. Retrieved from https://foreignpolicy.com/2020/08/11/annexation-israel-palestinians-trump-netanyahu/.

Shehada, M. & Mahmoud, W. (2020, August 21). Gaza incendiary balloons are ‘distress signals’. Retrieved from https://www.aljazeera.com/news/2020/8/21/gaza-incendiary-balloons-are-distress-signals.

Silverstein, R. (2008, May 27). Shut out of the homeland. Retrieved from https://www.theguardian.com/commentisfree/2008/may/27/shutoutofthehomeland.

The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica. (2021). Gaza Strip. Retrieved from https://www.britannica.com/place/Gaza-Strip/.

U.S. Department of State: Bureau of Near East Affairs. (2020). The Abraham Accords. Retrieved from https://www.state.gov/the-abraham-accords/.

United Nations. (2020, September 2). UN dismayed over US sanctions on top International Criminal Court officials. Retrieved from https://news.un.org/en/story/2020/09/1071572.

United Nations Human Rights Council. (2020, July 15). Report of the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967* (A/HRC/44/60). Retrieved from https://www.ohchr.org/EN/HRBodies/HRC/RegularSessions/Session44/Do

UNRWA. (n.d.). Where We Work. Retrieved from https://www.unrwa.org/where-we-work/gaza-strip.

Zeyad, L.A. (2019, December 16). Why is Israel preventing me from accompanying my mother to chemotherapy?. Retrieved from https://www.amnesty.org/en/latest/news/2019/12/why-is-israel-preventing-me-from-accompanying-my-mother-to-chemotherapy/.

Footnotes

[1] “Report of the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967*” or A/HRC/44/60 stated:

21. Cases of arbitrary arrest and detention by the de-facto authorities in Gaza continued to be reported, particularly of journalist, human rights and political activists. On 9 April, a number of Palestinian activists were arrested and detained by the de-facto authorities after being accused of engaging in “normalization activities with Israel”. A small group of activists had organized a zoom call with young Israeli activists to discuss living conditions in Gaza.30 Many continue to be arrested because of their political affiliation and perceived opposition to the Hamas authorities. Serious restrictions on freedom of expression continue to be in place particularly in the context of reporting on the socio-economic impact of the COVID19 pandemic.31 In June, a number of persons were arrested by the de-facto authorities in Gaza, as they expressed opposing political views and attempted to organize events that were banned by security forces.

22. A number of arrests by Palestinian Security Forces continued to be reported in the West Bank. Many of those arrested were accused of using social media platforms to criticize the Palestinian authority or expressing opposing political views.32 Limitations on freedom of expression remain a concern for journalists. A number of allegations of ill-treatment of those arrested also continue to be received.

United Nations Human Rights Council. (2020).

[2] “State of Palestine: Annexation Plan of the West Bank” (2020) states:

According to OCHA (2020), around 250 Israeli settlements have been established in the West Bank (including East Jerusalem) with some 633,000 Israeli settlers; over 400,000 reside in the West Bank and around 200,000 in East Jerusalem. According to the latest figures by NGO Peace Now, there are 132 settlements officially recognised by the Israeli Military of Interior (excluding East Jerusalem), and about 124 built by Israeli settlers without official authorisation — but with governmental support and assistance — known as “illegal outposts”. These settlements cover almost 10% of the West Bank.

ACAPS (2020).

[3] “In her global human rights update, Bachelet calls for urgent action to heighten resilience and protect people’s rights” (2020) states:

In the Occupied Palestinian Territory, the escalating tragedy in Gaza is of particular concern. Although temporary truces are welcome — including the latest agreement to end hostilities between armed groups in Gaza and Israel — Gaza’s two million people desperately need long-term and sustainable solutions. The blockade by sea and land, which Israel has imposed for 13 years, has brought Gaza’s main economic and commercial activities to a complete halt. As a direct result, more than 38% of Gazans live in poverty; 50% are unemployed; and more than 90% of the water from aquifers is undrinkable. Last month’s decision to ban the entry of fuel into Gaza creates even deeper suffering and humanitarian burdens. With sharply rising COVID-19 cases in Gaza, the health sector now faces total collapse, unless aspects of the blockade are lifted. The blockade, which contravenes international law, has conclusively failed to deliver security or peace for Israelis and Palestinians, and should urgently be lifted.

OHCHR (2020).

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2022-05-15

Ask Mandisa 66: Performative and Substantive Activism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/17

Here we talk about performative and substantive activism in 2020.

*This was conducted July 13, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, so, Mandisa, there are two types of activism. One is substantive. The other is performative. What irritates you? What bugs you about performative activism?

Mandisa Thomas: Performative activism is when people have a tendency aggrandize, and to appear to be doing more than they really are. Because activism is often perceived as public protesting and speaking, it is way too easy for others mimic via their personal platforms. Which irritates me greatly. The people who are behind the scenes are doing much of the hard work, and when you have some who come on the scene talking big, yet doing little to nothing else, it takes away from away from those who are truly dedicated the cause(s).

Jacobsen: Now, the people who tend to work behind the scenes, who tend not get as much play. We see this in the secular communities. We see this in every other community, typically, as a rule of thumb. We see more women doing the groundwork. I mean, we see this in the black church. It is the black church, as has been said, which was built on the backs of women, black women in particular. So, how does this diminish the legacy efforts, the intergenerational efforts? Because these things take time of a lot of the women and some of the men who are behind the scenes doing the hard work and making the emotional, financial, and physical sacrifices to make things move forward.

Thomas: There are a couple of factors that we need to consider here. The first is that we are still in a patriarchal society where women are still fighting to get proper compensation and credit for our work. Secondly, there is a gross assumption and expectation that changes happen overnight – which has never been the case, and never will be. I am well aware of the hardships that those who came before me faced, and give the utmost respect. It is easy for activists now to offer critiques about what used to happen back in the day, or what people may have endured. Not that it should be exempt from critique, but I can acknowledge that I may have been unable to deal with it as they did.

For many others, there’s a disconnect to the history. So, while the future generations shouldn’t be required to be mired in it, the struggles that our ancestors faced had tended to be lost on them. When people look to what happened in the past, they tend to generally think that it was so long ago. Because they’re not dealing with those issues so much now, so, it gives the perception that things are over. However, on the other side of that disconnect, there’s still a lot of the same rhetoric being spewed today from back then.

And while we understand that there’s still a long way to go, there HAS been progress. But there does need to be a more education and information available, so that more young people truly understand what it took to get here, and how it also needs to be maintained for future generations. This, along with showing humility and respect, can make a huge difference.

Jacobsen: What do you note as some of the issues of the younger generations when going out and attempting to move the dial a little bit more towards a just and fair society? And I should note to those who are potentially tuning into this series for the first time, the community organizing and the hospitality industry work for you. So, you’ve had to deal with people and people’s problems for a long time. What are some of the issues that you’re noting from younger generations of activists when they’re having to come across people and people problems in intense situations for the first time in their lives, potentially?

Thomas: Yes. So, I see that there are some good things happening, and some other things that need improvement. With the technology being more advanced now, it is easier for people, younger folks in particular, to communicate. What tends to get lost is formality, and people understanding that they must still maintain common courtesy and respect for others, whether online or in person, but especially in person. There are some people who think that the more education they have, that they may not necessarily have to exhibit those people skills as they should. That’s definitely something that I see is lost on the younger generations.

But the good thing is, they’re not falling for the old “fire and brimstone” tactics. There’s a lot of younger folks that are doing away with religious beliefs, and they are not going to be forced into silence or complicity. Which has always been the case for younger people in movements historically. Also, if we can strike that balance between understanding the older generations and vice versa, then it will create a better team-building opportunities, and remain objective and balanced while working towards the future.

Jacobsen: Mandisa, thank you so much. It is always lovely.

Thomas: Thank you.

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2022-05-15

Ask Mandisa 65: Billboard Ads

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/16

Here we talk about some posters in 2020.

*This was conducted August 10, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We’re going to be talking about posters. That’s going to tie into, I think, the “black family.” That is, technically, a broader term and more general than the term the African-American family, because, though, some could come could be recent immigrants to the United States of African heritage, but are not African-American in the sense of a long term, here’s the most people who would be understanding. So, what’s going on with the posters? What’s the larger context?

Mandisa Thomas: Following the Black Family Discussion, we decided to erect some billboard ads that encouraged people to consider their beliefs as being a factor in white supremacy and preventing people from having true liberation. As we are experiencing both the pandemic as well as a rise in actions against racial injustice, there has been a call for monuments that upholds these ideals and institutions to be removed. But the one institution that is overlooked is Christianity and its roots in particular, because it has been a huge culprit in the enforcement in racism – ideals and all.

So, the purpose is to get the black community to reassess their relationship with religion, especially Christianity. Because as we call for justice, they’re going to need to take a hard look to this belief system and how it hinders those efforts. As more people shed those beliefs, they start understanding how problematic they are. We want to let people know that it is okay for them to let it go, if justice is truly to be served.

Jacobsen: So, let’s say, I’m an individual believer. I’m a Christian. I label myself a religious person. I consider myself a moral person. I walk ‘bearing the Cross,’ to use the language, in my life. Then someone comes along and critiques it, in that language used by you, they might be thinking or asking, “What do you mean by Christianity in relation to black Americans? What do you mean by its role in oppression?”

Thomas: There is documentation proving Christianity to have been instrumental in establishing the laws that instituted systems of oppression of black people and other marginalized groups in the country. So, in talking to believers, when they ask the question, “What do you mean by that?”, we in turn ask them about their religion and its language of servitude, of subjugation, and ‘obey your masters,’ and how that was historically a catalyst for the enslavement of our ancestors. We’re asking them to reconsider that, especially given this history – all while not discounting the role of the church at that time. It has been thoroughly documented whether people have researched it or not.

We are challenging people to think beyond those beliefs, because they have hindered the state of our communities physically, economically, and psychologically. And some may have actually thought about it. They may have questioned those beliefs previously, but afraid to openly do so due to potential consequences. That is unfortunately, a byproduct of believing in a religion that “curses” you for having the courage to think for yourself. So, what we are encouraging people to do is confront those fears, and even let them go.

They may still choose to believe at the end of the day. And we’re not going to tell them that they should stop. But those who might be on their way out need to know that there are more out here. And there are going to be more in the future. Whether believers like it or not, at some point, they’re going to be confronted with more people who are challenging their beliefs – and either they need to be prepared to either properly defend them or fully assess, and/or let them go.

Jacobsen: Mandisa, thank you, as always.

Thomas: Thank you.

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2022-05-15

Ask Mandisa 64: Juneteenth and Jim Crow

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/12

Here we talk about Juneteenth and Jim Crow in 2020.

*This was conducted June 22, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We are back with another “Ask Mandisa.” Now, you grew up on a steady historical diet, in terms of knowing history. So, one of those mentioned to me was a knowledge of and recognition of Juneteenth. This was recently celebrated over the weekend. What is the importance of this particular historical moment in the context of the United States? How does this have larger implications about recognizing history for much of the population in the United States who can have historical amnesia?

Mandisa Thomas: So, in this current climate of recognizing that Black Lives Matter and having a better understanding of racism and injustice, the holiday of Juneteenth takes on a new significance. More people are learning that in this country, black folks have never been truly free, and that there is still a systemic effort to oppress black folks and other people of colour. Juneteenth is a celebration of what was ultimately bad communication on behalf of the state of Texas. Abraham Lincoln issued the Emancipation Proclamation, declaring slavery illegal in 1863. But it wasn’t until June 19th of 1865 that the slaves in Texas and other Southern states were informed that this was the case. And so, this is an acknowledgement of a celebration that the slaves were freed, but also the significance of the disregard for black people in this country. And as we see more resistance and protests not only around the country, but around the world, being so close to the Juneteenth holiday makes it more significant. Hopefully, there will be more concerted efforts to make Juneteenth a national holiday or part of national recognition in the wake of it being ignored for so long.

Jacobsen: What are some of the fallout even after the end of slavery and Jim Crow laws and, basically, that, at least, the 60s version of the Civil Rights movement? And what are some of the fallouts that we’re seeing in some of the current moments of that? I mean, in terms of its explicit, dramatic moments of activism or protest.

Thomas: Of course, we’re seeing a response in the form of “All Lives Matter” and “Blue Lives Matter”, with a lot of white people asking, “What about OUR ancestral struggles?” On social media, we are seeing a rise in white people openly using racial slurs against black folks and becoming irate about the resistance movements. Someone put a noose in Bubba Wallace, a Black NASCAR driver’s vehicle, in response to the commemoration of the Black Lives Matter movement. NASCAR also banned the Confederate flag in 2020, which most likely fueled the flames of anger for many fans. However, we’ve seen quite a few white people who want to help, and try to do better. But even their privilege and upbringings are racist in nature, which is compelling them to try to get more black folks to educate them and do more work at our expense – which isn’t helpful at all.

So every time something like this occurs and there is a push for policy changes, whether in the private or public sector, there will be pushback, and people feeling like their rights are being infringed upon. But I think it’s because they’ve been used to things being a certain way for so long, that they are scared. Change is hard, but it is necessary.

Jacobsen: Mandisa, thank you so much for your time.

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2022-05-15

Ask Mandisa 63: African Americans for Humanism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/08/10

Here we talk about secular communities and current issues (2020).

*This was conducted June 29, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we’ve got some fantastic news. It has to do with mainly finance, but also, maybe, a change in some of the winds in terms of support for – let’s call it – African-American Humanism, if it is American based or black humanism. What happened?

Mandisa Thomas: Yes. So, in the month of June, BN and other black organizations have seen a surge in support, which I’m sure is in light of the tension that culminated with the tragic murder of George Floyd. We’ve attracted new donors, and people inquiring about supporting our work. Also, a couple – fellow atheists – contacted us at our website looking to directly support one of our members financially. After careful consideration, including a potential suggestion for them to route this through BN, I put them in touch with one of our members, who is a struggling single mom. I wasn’t sure significant their support would be, but I learned later that it will benefit her and her family tremendously. In addition, my virtual speaking schedule has increased. So, I appreciate the enhanced support; hopefully, it maintains its momentum.

Jacobsen: When you get this support, I think we can all understand the overwhelming emotion that can wash over someone, especially in the midst of a pandemic. When an organization is running through some tough financial times, when you get that money, and you get the guarantee or have the promise of such finance, what do you do in terms of start running through your mind, plans? How many steps do you start looking ahead and then start filling in the details of what you can do?

Thomas: Oh, my gosh, I know my mind goes all over the place! Thanks to a generous grant from the Stiefel Freethought Foundation, BN will go host an online event in July, which will have some prominent names attached, as we discuss religion in the black community. I always look to see how we can improve operations as well as our supplies. I think of new collaboration opportunities for the organization, and ways to better utilize and combine the resources that we already have. Overall, it is a matter of ensuring that we have enough that we’re not struggling, from year to year or month to month. Making sure that we are in a position where even when we fundraise, it doesn’t feel like a matter of life or death. We’ve also seen an increase in our online store sales, which has been great as well. So, all across the board, this gives us a boost.

Jacobsen: Now, you have a significant amount of experience and expertise in the hospitality industry. The hospitality industry is notoriously stressful and at times chaotic. So, you have the experience to know to buttress excitement here when it comes to the long-term planning of some of these financial contributions. So, when you’re looking at that plan forward: How are you making certain, as the founder and president of Black Nonbelievers Inc., to make sure the finances last a long time, are used with prudence and on projects that will have benefit to the community, and as outreach to a wider secular community?

Thomas: Yes. My background in hospitality and as well as management and administrative work, we save on overhead. So, in addition to representing the organization, I also do many things on the backend. While I know that I will want to eventually delegate and hire for some of those responsibilities, as long as I have the ability, then I will manage all of the things that are within my purview. This may be a little self-congratulatory here, but I am proud of my ability to communicate and work as hard as I do. I also pride myself on my ability to explore different various development avenues with the organization. And that’s the way I’ve always worked, even when I was employed by other companies. I am able to work independently, and also as a team, learning from what other people do. So, if I need to step in for someone, then I can. With BN still being so small, we’re able to keep things fairly manageable. It takes skill, time, and determination, but it is worth it.

Jacobsen: Mandisa congratulations, thank you so much for your time.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 38: Dichotomous Dialogues and Decorum

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/24

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about a recent dialogue between Jon and a Christian pastor in New York.

*Interview conducted April 5, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, here’s the ‘Cliff’s Notes’ of the story before getting into it, I got an email from a pastor in New York State. They wanted to do an interview with me. They had seen; I had been doing interviews with pastors in the Lower Mainland of British Columbia and elsewhere as an educational effort, as an interbelief and dialogue effort[1]. They liked it. Presumably, they approved of the effort. They reached out to me to get an interview with me. However, they were from another country. They’re from another side of the continent. They were from New York State. So, with very different cultures, countries, and sides of a continent, it seemed more apt to reach out to someone I know in New York State. That happens to be the wonderful Jon. So, I offered to get you two in touch. You proved it. You actually got together. I was on the emails to make sure things were respectful, and so on. The interview went forward. So, what happened?

Jonathan Engel: Well, it was very interesting. He was a very nice man. Our conversation was very cordial, so that was good. He had said to me in the emails that we went back and forth. He wasn’t really interested in anything confrontational or debate, the formal debate. Although, he did mention when we talked; he might be interested in the future in a debate. I’m not sure if I would be or not, but we’ll see. But in any event, this was not that. This was just a conversation. Again, it was very cordial. He was true to his word. It was not in any way confrontational. We did disagree on a few things. At one point, he talked about the Constitution of the United States being based on Judeo-Christian values. I disagreed.

I said at the heart of the Constitution of the United States is democracy. Democracy is not a Judeo-Christian value. Democracy is an enlightened value. Again, I was, at the time, when I said that, I thought to myself, “I don’t remember anything in the Bible about Jesus saying to the apostles, ‘OK guys, now we’re going to take a vote on what we do next.’” So, we had a few things. Obviously, we don’t exactly agree on the nature of how human beings came to be on this planet. We also disagree on the age of the planet, which I pegged at about 4.6 billion years, give or take a year or two. He believed that it was significantly less old than that, which is not all that surprising.

But there was something I have to tell you, Scott. It was something I found very interesting and surprising about our conversation. Which afterwards, I talked about it with my wife. She said: Maybe, the reason that I counted this thing – I came to this in a second, surprisingly, which is that I’ve never really spent a lot of time around a true fundamentalist religious person, which is basically true. But here’s what surprised me, it seemed to me that my worldview was a secular humanist, was much more positive, optimistic, and life-affirming than was his. That surprised me. Maybe, it may have been because I was a little around a fundamentalist believer.

But I thought that they were more in terms of God’s Gospel and Jesus Christ superstar when I was a kid or something. Because I thought Jesus was peace and love and all the rest of that stuff. But there seemed to be a very underlying worldview with belief in things like punishment and obedience to authority. I said, “You’ve got to question authority.” I wouldn’t say, “If a cop says, ‘It’s dangerous to go this way,’ go that way.” I’m not going to stand there and argue with him. But when it comes to things that don’t involve the immediate need to make a decision or something, I was talking about questioning authority. He was talking, “Well, it depends on the authorities.”

So, he was very big on obedience. He talked about Adam and Eve. Adam could have been perfect. Adam could have had this great life forever and ever and ever. But he took that apple. He disobeyed. In a lot of ways, I was talking about how he was asking me about what I think and what I believe in my worldview, etc., and what’s my purpose in life. I said, “Well, essentially, my purpose in life is to make myself in whatever small ways I can a better person.” Again, in whatever small ways I can to make the world a better place, I said, “We can do so much better than we do now if we care about each other more, if we love each other more, if we value each person like a secular humanist and are committed to each person reaching their potential.”

I said, “These are the things that bring you joy in life. That brings you to make the world a little bit better to help another person. These are wonderful things that bring joy to life.” I talked about how sometimes people who think that someone who’s an atheist like me, “Well, how do you feel wonder around and awe?” And I said, “I feel wonder all the time. I feel wonder just that there are people who are different than me and they’re interesting. The fact that we’re all here. I find it to be an amazing thing.” I think it was Richard Feynman, the physicist, who said, ‘Just because you know what makes a rainbow doesn’t make it any less beautiful.’ But I think one of the biggest things to take away from this is that; from my world view, human beings have to make the world a better place.

We have the ability to do it. This is something that needs to be our goal going forward. Being secular humanists, every chance we get to make the world a little better; that’s what we have to do. His world view on that kind of issue was more like, “We, as human beings… I’m not God and, therefore, I don’t have the power to do that. Instead, I know that Jesus will come back and he will make the world perfect.” So, he seemed more okay with just letting things be as they are. I pointed out to him. Robert Kennedy once said, “Some people look at things as they are and say, ‘Why?’ I look at things as they could be and say, ‘Why not?’” I think that’s more of a secular humanist point of view.

But his point of view was more like, “Jesus is going to come and then everything will be perfect. So, it’s foolish for human beings to try and make the world better because they’ll never succeed. That’s not the way it works. Human beings don’t have the power to do that. Only Jesus does. When He’s ready, He will come back and make the world perfect,” which to me was fatalism of the way the world is today. That, for me, as a secular humanist is absolutely unacceptable. I just find that completely unacceptable. I don’t mean that he’s not allowed to think what he thinks. Of course, people have to believe what he believes. But for me, I find that unacceptable. That we just sit around and wait for somebody. That, in my view, is never is going to come to make the world perfect.

Forget about “perfect,” there’s an old saying in politics, “Don’t let the perfect be the enemy of good.” We can do better. To me, I have an obligation to every other human being to try to make it better and they’re more like, “No, it’s just a matter of what we must believe. We must obey. We must be obedient to authorities and our religious authorities and to what they believe, which is being obedient to God. Then when we’re really good and obedient, God will make things perfect.” I’m like, “Man, you guys are sitting around waiting for something that ain’t going to happen.” I’m not willing to wait for that. I’m going to try to make the world better right now as it is; and that’s part, again, of the secular humanist viewpoint that we have to work. That we can’t wait for somebody else to make this world better and that burden is on us right here and right now and what you do each day to make the world a better place.

Jacobsen: What were the parts that you agreed on fundamentally?

Engel: There wasn’t a lot. I got the sense that I certainly believe that he has the right to his beliefs. He believes that I have the right to my beliefs. So, I think that was a good thing. I mentioned to him. It’s the case. I’m a big believer in the Constitution‘s First Amendment, which includes both the establishment clause and the free exercise clause. Listen, for me, it would be: I would demonstrate. I might talk to somebody just like I asked him if he was an evangelical. But then he laughed and said, “But I don’t expect that you’re going to join my congregation.” I said, “Well, listen, I also would like to persuade people to give up religion. But I would never force and never expect him to join the secular humanist society when the call was over either.”

But I would like to persuade people to give up religion. I said, “I would never coerce somebody to do so for two reasons. Number one, it’s unethical and simply wrong. Number two, it doesn’t work anywhere. You try to tell people not to do something, then they’re going to do it. If you said, “You can’t do this anymore,” then that’s the first thing they want to do. So, it’s ineffective and it’s wrong. We both agreed on that that people should not be coerced in religious beliefs in any way. We really didn’t get into what he felt was the role of religion in public life in government or politics. But I didn’t get the sense that he thought that that was where he was in terms of what he sees as God.

I respect that he wasn’t thinking that he was going to convert me; any more that I was thinking that I was going to convert him. So, I think that was one of the things we agreed on in terms of the ground rules. That we both have the right to our own beliefs and neither one of us would try to coerce the other one into changing what their belief system is.

Jacobsen: Do you have any recommendations for individuals who are going to have a conversation themselves in the future?

Engel: For a part of me, the second humanists are going to speak to someone who is a fundamentalist religious person. Personally, I would say to them, “One of the things I tried to do in this call, and I think that it’s important for us to do, is that I establish a personal thing.” We talked for about 20 minutes about stuff. I asked him exactly, “Where is your place located? Where do you live, your town?” I know a little bit because I went to college in Buffalo. I used to drive up through upstate New York and western New York to get there. my son went to college in Binghamton, which is not too far from where he is. So, we talked about that. He said he was going to some homeschooling, I think, conference or something like that in Buffalo.

I told them where to get the best wings in Buffalo. I think that would be one thing I would tell people. Establish just a little humanity and human communication that you would talk to any person that you didn’t really know and then would talk with, “Well, what’s life like in your town? I’ll tell you what life is like where I live.” He mentioned how he’s been to the city. He said that one of the things that he really liked about the city was all the different kinds of food. He said, “Up here, it’s like basic American food or Italian pizza places are Italian. But anything else, it’s really not too much.” I said, “Yeah, well, one of my favourite restaurants, which was unfortunately closed by Covid down here, was a Tibetan restaurant that I really liked.”

So, we established that. The other thing I would say is a given; that you want to establish a personal relationship and you want to be polite, as much as possible. I would also say, “Don’t roll over, frankly.” when he said something about, “Well, of course, you understand that the Constitution was based on Judeo-Christian values. I said, “No.” I didn’t say it nastily or anything. Never call them names or something because of a disagreement. But I also didn’t just let it slide. I say, “It’s okay when someone says something that’s fundamentally at odds with what you believe, to point that out.” That’s what I would recommend to somebody to establish a personal connection, be unfailingly polite. But by the same token, if you hear something that you just think is wrong, it’s OK to say, “Hey, no, I don’t believe that. I believe something different.”

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you so much.

Engel: It’s my pleasure, Scott, as always. Thank you for setting me up with this guy. Actually, it was interesting and illuminating for me.

Jacobsen: Yes, I thought it more appropriate with two New Yorkers rather than a Vancouverite and a New Yorker.

Engel: Yes, so, I appreciate it. It was interesting. I think, I learned something from it.

Jacobsen: Excellent, to me, that’s the end goal, was the ultimate goal.

Footnotes

[1] See Jacobsen (2018a), Jacobsen (2018b), Jacobsen (2018c), Jacobsen (2018d), Jacobsen (2019a), Jacobsen (2019b), Jacobsen (2019c), and Jacobsen (2020a).

References

Jacobsen, S.D. (2019a, December 26). Canada: Interview with Pastor Josh Loeve – Lead Pastor, Centre Church. Retrieved from https://www.newsintervention.com/loeve-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2018a, October 9). Conversation with Pastor Brad Strelau – Pastor, CA Church: Town Center. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2018/10/strelau-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2018c, July 26). Interview with Andy Steiger – Pastor, Young Adult Ministries, Northview Community Church & Director, Apologetics Canada. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2018/07/steiger-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2019b, September 28). Interview with Pastor Clint Nelson – Lead Pastor, Parkside Church. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2019/09/nelson-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2018b, September 22). Interview with Pastor Dave Solmes – Lead Pastor, Living Waters Church. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2018/09/solmes-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2019c, June 26). Interview with Rev. Helen Tervo – Vicar, St. Andrew’s Anglican Church. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2019/06/tervo-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2020a, September 1). Pastor Bob Cottrill on Christianity, Faith, and Intuition. Retrieved from https://www.newsintervention.com/pastor-bob-cottrill-on-christian-faith-and-intuition/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2018d, May 2). Pastor Paul VanderKlay on the Christian Reformed Church. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2018/05/vanderklay/.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 37: Universal Vaccination and Rugged Individualism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/23

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about the collision between the value of rugged individualism and the need for universal vaccination in the moment of a pandemic.

*Interview conducted March 22, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Vaccines really touch on or show by population experiments, natural experiments, the outcomes of American values. When I look at them, I am seeing distinct lines drawn between humanistic values and American values. American values around a lot longer within American discourse; humanist values in the American form grew out of that American context. So, the hemisphere is “be an individual person plus social responsibility.” So, there’s a sense that the interpersonal is secondary, the collective is tertiary, but the individual is primary. But those are all connected, and you can’t make them separate in any way. In American values, the exceptional American individual can be separated in that ideology.

And it has certain outcomes in terms of how some political or social philosophies play out. I think this is playing out in real-time in the vaccine context throughout the country in different ways to different degrees in different states. In New York, what’s your experience with regards to this value dichotomy? How is it worsening the situation or the well-being of Americans?

Jonathan Engel: It seems to me that we’re going to reach an interesting tipping point probably in a couple of months. Because right now the United States is doing a lot of vaccinations. Over the weekend, I think it was nearly three million a day. I myself have gotten my first vaccination and I need to go back to get my second. I’ve got the Pfizer at the Jacob K. Javits Convention Center in New York, which is this huge building. They’ve been doing about 10,000 shots a day there. They say that they’re ready to ramp up as more vaccines become available for 20,000 shots a day. We’re still in the stage right now where not everybody can get it. There are still eligibility requirements in the state of New York. You have to be over 60 or have a specific pre-existing condition or have a specific job that you do, like a medical worker or teacher that puts you at the front of the line.

So, I still know people who are trying to get vaccinated who haven’t been able to yet. Then, of course, there are people like my sons, who are 32 and 28, and who have no particular condition and they’re not even eligible yet. But eventually, of course, they’re doing lots of shots. Eventually, you’re going to get to a situation where everybody who agrees to be vaccinated and wants to be vaccinated has it, then comes the question, “What do you do with everybody else?” Because we have to get to about 80% to 90% vaccinated to get herd immunity. What happens with the people who don’t?

And you’re right, this country does not have a great history of collective action. It’s something that is really more “every man for himself.” Although, here in the United States, we like to refer to that as Rugged Individualism. It doesn’t sound quite so selfish, but it is. In my view, that viewpoint has been escalating. It’s almost been on steroids for several decades at least, or maybe as long as I’ve been alive. I think, maybe, I’m just viewing this nostalgically. But I think that there used to be a little bit more of a concept of the common good in this country. But that’s gone. It seems to have gotten lost. This individual thing has become more like, “I can do whatever I want. Who are you to tell me what to do? Who are you to tell me to wear a mask? Who are you to tell me to get vaccinated?”

There are people in this country who don’t want to get vaccinated, not even that so much as a medical thing; although, I don’t even know what the medical excuse would be to not get vaccinated. But just to say, “Hey, if you’re telling me to get vaccinated, I won’t get vaccinated because I don’t like people telling me what to do.” The problem, of course, is that that kind of selfishness is hard to counter. That kind of belief that “I can do what I want” is hard to counter. You try countering it with logic as a humanist. That’s what I would try to do. But it’s not easy. You can say to people, “Hey, you’ve been in resort towns in the summertime. That sign that says, ‘No shirt, no shoes and no service.’ Well, you obey, right? You accept it. So, if it says, ‘No mask,’ why not the same acceptance?”

Of course, there’s the possibility that certain public institutions or certain things are open to the public. If you think about flights or airlines, they are going to say, “You have to get vaccinated in order to get on our plane and show proof of vaccination.” I hope they will. But there’s a strong attitude against that kind of thing, so from a humanist perspective. Where we look at that, we have to consider the needs and well-being of the people we share this planet with. That is a very frightening thing. It’s a real challenge to us to try to get people to understand that we need to all get vaccinated for this to work or a large proportion of us to get vaccinated in order for this to work.

And again, you try to use logic and say, “Hey, you say you don’t want to wear a mask. You say you want to get together with your buddies. You say that you want to go to bars and restaurants and movies and all the rest of that stuff. Well… this is the way we can achieve it if we all get vaccinated.” So, that’s the interesting counter. On the one hand, these people say, “Well, I don’t want to, so, why should I have to?” And the answer is: Because if you want to get back to that, this is what it requires and it’s going to take a huge public relations push. I honestly don’t know how, in the end, it’s going to work. I don’t know if it’s going to, if we’re going to be able to do it or not. It’s very frustrating to think that we have the technology, we have the science, and we are producing huge amounts of vaccines.

We’re getting it out there. We will have the ability to get everybody vaccinated before the fall comes. We could do that in the United States. But whether people will agree to it or not is something that’s kind of up in the air, again, it really is; I don’t know how things are going to go. I wish I had a crystal ball, but I don’t. I don’t know if we’re going to get this really under control, so that we can have a semblance of normalcy or we’re going to slide back. There’s always the possibility of sliding back to things like forced closures, etc., if we don’t take care of it when we can.

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you as always.

Engel: Ok, thank you, Scott. Listen, take care of yourself.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 36: The ‘Truth’ and Abuse of Stature

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/22

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about religion as a political tool in the United States.

*Interview conducted March 8, 2021.*

Jacobsen: So, for New York State and some of its political contexts, insofar as religious pluralism and non-religion are concerned, how do individual people in politics, in the United States, in New York, try to violate that by calling for the “truth,” by quoting the Bible? Or how do they attempt to make a point using religious scripture where the context in a political situation should be a-religious – in that it’s politics, not religion?

Engel: Well, it’s used quite a bit. This is a very religious country. I wish it wasn’t the case, but that’s the way it is. So, frequently, we’re talking about elected representatives who will go onto the floor of whatever their legislature is, whether it’s the state legislature in Albany or the federal Congress and say, “This is the way this should be,” or, “We should vote against this bill,” or, “We should vote for this bill because…,” and then pull out some quote from a passage of the Christian Bible. Say, “Well, therefore… and therefore, since this is what God’s Word is,” which is just absolutely dumbfounding to me. But what happens is, you get a lot of quiet in response to that, where you frequently get counterarguments made biblically.

In other words, you are responding, “Well, wait a second, I know that that passage said that. But what about this passage from the Bible?” Of course, they’re always talking about the Christian Bible. This is still the United States; and then Muslims, we’re talking about what the Quran says, or didn’t say, or anything else like that. So, it’s about, “Look at this passage from the Bible that contradicts it.” They’re saying that they are having this theological argument, which is absolutely ridiculous and, more importantly, has no place in deliberations by a public body that represents all the people of all religions and no religion. So, what happened recently, there was a debate going on in the United States House of Representatives on the Equality Act, which would ban discrimination based on sexual orientation and gender identity.

And the representative, Republican, from Florida, Steube, I don’t know how to pronounce the name. They got up and read a passage from the Bible saying, ‘A man must not wear women’s clothing. No man wears women’s clothing for the Lord your God detests anyone who does this.’ Anyway, he went on to say, ‘Therefore, you’re not supposed to, if God assigned you. It is wisdom to be in particular sex or gender. That’s all you can ever be, because that’s what God intended.’ Again, there were reactions. Some people stood up and defended this as an assault on transgender people. ‘They have as much right as anybody to happiness.’

Absolutely, I agree with that. It’s nice someone said it. But somebody said something else, and that was Representative Jerry Nadler, who is a member of the United States House of Representatives from New York City. He’s chairman of the House Judiciary Committee. What he said was, ‘What any religious tradition describes as God’s will is no concern of this Congress.’ And, boy, I have to tell you, Scott; I’ve been waiting years to hear somebody respond to one of these so-called biblical arguments with something along those lines, ‘Hey, look, we’re not going to argue with you about what the Bible says and what the Bible means. And, of course, when you say the Bible, we’re only talking about your Bible, I understand, but I don’t care what it says. We’re not going to have that argument because what it says and what you think that dictates has no place in this Congress. It’s not a concern of this Congress. What you think your particular God’s will is?’ I thought that was fantastic and unusual, unfortunately, but I think it was just so great that he said it.

Jacobsen: How did the public react when this came out?

Engel: It was kind of buried a little bit. I found it online. I verified that’s what he said. But it really is in New York City where he’s from, especially on the west side, which is even thought to be more liberal than East sides. I live on the East side. But anyway, he’s not going to get blowback on that in New York City. People in New York City expect this to be the case. We’re not as religious as other places. There are plenty of religious people and small enclaves. There are enclaves of ultra-orthodox Jews in New York City. But for the most part, he’s not going to get any pushback here in the city for saying this. This is something that most people in New York City just accept as being a matter of course.

We have no choice in some ways, but to reflect on New York City. Because we’re the most diverse city in the world. We have lots of Protestants and Catholics and Jews and Hindus and Muslims and Buddhists and people of no religion at all – thank you very much, including me. So, in New York, you can’t really get away with it in New York City. I’m not talking about the rest of New York State. But New York City, you really can’t get away with that kind of thing very much. So, the only mention, I haven’t seen a lot of mentions of what Nadler said, but the only mentions I’ve seen of it were part of people being very appreciative of it, especially in the secular community.

But other people as well, being appreciative that he would say, “Listen, your Christian Bible has no place here.” Not that people can’t read it and follow it and do whatever they want with it in their private lives. But on the floor of the House of Representatives, “When we’re sitting here making law and making policy, what you think your God’s will is, is unimportant to what we’re doing. It is irrelevant to what we’re doing right now,” which was a fantastic thing.

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you so much for your time and we’ll talk to you next week.

Engel: Ok, Scott. Listen, take care of yourself.

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2022-05-15

Ask Dr. P.B. 4: “The Arbiters of Faith”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/18

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff has been a community organizer for more than 15 years. He has been active in Saanich municipal politics. He earned a PhD in Politics and International Studies from the University of Cambridge and two BAs from the University of Calgary in Political Science and International Relations, respectively. He is a Board Member of the Greater Victoria Placemaking Network. He owns and operates a research consultancy called The Idea Tree. He is a New Democrat, politically, and is the President of the Saanich-Gulf Islands NDP riding association. He founded OceansAsia as a marine conservation organization devoted to combating illegal fishing and wildlife crime. Here we talk about “The Arbiters of Faith: Legislative Assembly of BC Entanglement with Religious Dogma Resulting from Legislative Prayer” and recent research work of the BCHA.

—

*Note, this interview occurred before the ‘Arbiters of Faith’ article was published and before the Clerk of the BC Legislature completed their review of prayer in the BC Legislature. The article discussed in this interview has subsequently been published in the journal of Secularism & Nonreligion.*

Scott Jacobsen: So, you submitted a report entitled, “The Arbiters of Faith: Legislative Assembly of BC Entanglement with Religious Dogma Resulting from Legislative Prayer.” What was the purpose of this paper and what are some of the general overview points of this paper report?

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff: A lot of people are not familiar with the fact that each daily sitting at the B.C. legislature starts with a prayer and it is delivered by a member of the Legislative Assembly, or on days there’s a speech from the throne, by a guest from the public. So, the BCHA did a comprehensive analysis of these prayers. People can read about our interview and the content of that report in the House of Prayers Report.

One of the things that’s interesting is that in BC, MLAs are asked to deliver a prayer. They have the option of either delivering a prayer of their own devising or reading a prayer from a list of sample prayers that is provided by legislative staff. When we did the analysis in the House of Prayer study, we found that the MLAs were selecting a prayer from the list of sample prayers 50 percent, half, of the time,

So, this got us wondering about the list of sample prayers. When you look at the list of sample prayers, you see three that are ‘nonsectarian’ and two that are ‘secular.’ By this I mean that three of them are overtly religious — they mention “God,” and other religious language. And the two secular ones seem religiously affiliated, but they do not mention gods and they’re more of a thanksgiving thing.

The background in this article is … at the end of 2019, the Office of the Clerk of the Legislative Assembly in British Columbia was conducting a review of the process and procedures around prayers in the legislature. We submitted a comprehensive 138-page report, the House of Prayers Report. In it, we suggested that a starting each session of the BC Legislature with a prayer is not a good idea. The report outlines a lot of reasons why we shouldn’t be doing this: It is unconstitutional, potentially. It excludes people. It diminishes and otherwise trivializes the sacred act, and other arguments along these lines. We submitted the report as our input to the Clerk’s review process.

We are aware that the sample prayers were part of the review process conducted by the office of the clerk. The Clerk was reviewing the sample list likely because these five prayers were not representative of the views of British Columbians, or reflected the views of only a narrow band of British Columbians. And so part of the process that the Office of the Clerk is currently undertaking is a revision of this list.

After we submit our report, we got to thinking: Is it possible for the Office of the Clerk to create a list of sample prayers, both practically and constitutionally? So, the Arbiters of Faith article seeks to answer this question.

I suppose that this is a really long preamble to a shorter answer, which is we wanted to know whether it is possible, both practically and constitutionally, for the Office of the Clerk to create a list of sample prayers that they provide to MLAs to deliver at the beginning of each sitting of legislature.

In the article, we identified practical and constitutional hurdles that we do not think could be overcome, which suggests that A) you shouldn’t have a sample list of prayers because it would violate the state’s duty of religious neutrality, and B) making that list is an incredibly complicated and complex process.

Each decision throughout the process has both constitutional and practical hurdles to overcome. That’s why I thought I might walk you through some of those challenges so that people will get an idea of how difficult it is for the state to amend practices around legislative prayer, rather than simply abolishing the practice.

So here’s a summary of the concerns we raise in the article. The Clerk faces challenges and decisions at every stage of the process. There are challenges of identifying religions and religious groups in British Columbia and challenges with selecting a reasonable number of religious groups to ask to add a prayer to the list. Then, even at that point, it is incredibly difficult and problematic to identify which prayer should be included on the list. And even who in particular to ask to submit a prayer. Ultimately there are practical and constitutional problems at every stage of the review process.

To begin with, there is the question of what constitutes a religion. This is a question that is debated heavily in academia, anthropology, and religious studies. There’s no real answer to this question. What you often see in legal jurisprudence is the “I know it when I see it” approach. Unfortunately, this is prone to bias.

When people say ‘they know it when they see it,’ they tend to be biased towards religions with which they are familiar. This makes sense, but there is a lot of potential bias there and some religion will be oversampled. In doing this, on relying on this possible approach, you’re validating one religion at the possible expense of others.

It puts the government, and individual bureaucrats making decisions about what is or is not a religion, saying something like “Okay, Baptist, that’s a religion. Protestantism, that’s a religion. But Eckankar, Scientology, those aren’t religions.” So, some are validated over others.

That’s a problem, because the state has a duty of religious neutrality, as established in 2015 [in the Saguenay descision]. You’re not being neutral when you’re saying this belief system is a religion, and this one isn’t.

And there are also really no grounds for this basis, or any laws in Canada, that establish a clear definition of what religion is. We explore some complicated aspects of this in the article. A lot of people aren’t aware of this: Canada doesn’t have a definition of what a religion is.

As a result, you get this weird situation where, for example, CRA [Canadian Revenue Agency] says that it has a rough definition of what religions are: It is quite circular, and it excludes non-theistic religion.

For example, there was a court case a little while ago [the Church of Atheism of Central Canada v. MNR], where the judge admitted that the current usage and practices around definitions of religion in Canada exclude the non-theistic religions like Buddhism or other religions that do not have a defined ‘god.’ That’s a bit of a problem if you’re trying to say, “We’re neutral,” but you’re not being neutral when you do that. You’re saying, “We’re neutral, but only for only a narrow band of faith traditions,” which is not neutrality.

So, you have a situation where the state is put in the position of having to try to arbitrate religious dogma. In a 2004 decision, a court decision around some of these issues [Syndicat Northcrest v. Amselem], the judge decided that it is not the role of the state, nor should it be the role of the state, to arbitrate on religious dogma. Otherwise the state becomes overly entangled in these religious issues, to the point where they could be put in the position of arbitrating matters relating to religious practices or theology.

Imagine a situation where parishioners at one church might take other parishioners from that same church to court because the practice of delivering communion was changed. One group might want to be kneeling when they receive communion, the other group might want to be standing when they receive communion. It is not the role of courts to be adjudicating this kind of matter. People can probably see how this unnecessarily entangles the government with religion.

So, the first problem is that we do not know what religion is. It’s unclear in law, and there are a lot of examples of this in jurisprudence. Again, there’s no legislation defining what religion is in Canada.

Let’s say we could overcome that first hurdle, the next question comes down to which religions make the cut for inclusion in the consultation process and in the final list of sample prayers. Because there is a vast number of religions and some people would say, quite accurately, that given the diversity of beliefs out there, every single person has a slightly different religious belief. Two people sitting in the pews of the same church, for example, likely don’t agree entirely on every aspect of that religion, and their views may differ in minor or significant ways. Ultimately, we have a situation where every single person’s religion is unique.

But this aside, you also have other complicating factors. Let’s pretend we’re going to try to pick which religions to ask to submit prayers for the sample prayer list. How does the state go about picking which religions/religious groups to approach?

The government could try reaching out to the religious groups with which they are most familiar. The state knows a couple of religions are common, and members of the bureaucracy are likely familiar with a decent number of religions. So they could call representatives of the religions that they are familiar with, and ask to get their input.

The first issue here is, are they asking non-religious groups? Now in this case, the office of the Clerk asked the BCHA to submit sample prayers and to participate in the review process, and this is not a common practice. It’s very often the case that when there’s a consultation with faith leaders, that leaders of nonreligious groups are not consulted. This may make sense on first blush, if the consultation is with members of various faith traditions it could seem strange to include the nonreligious, but then a huge swath of the population is excluded and the results would be biased in favour of religious believers. This is particularly relevant here, as the risk would be that there would be no non-religious or secular invocations on the list. There is an inherent faith bias.

The approach of just reaching out to faith traditions with which the government is familiar is very subjective. Here is an interesting fact that a lot of people may not be aware of. The federal government, and provincial government, has an ‘order of precedence’ list, which is basically a list of how do you introduce people at a banquet or a state funeral. For example, it starts with the Queen and it works its way down through other heads of state. Strangely, this list puts representatives of faith communities above judges, senators, and members of parliament. This is in and of itself an interesting bias in favor of religious groups. This list also doesn’t include details on which religions make the cut and which religious figures would be introduced before judges, senators and MPs, so it doesn’t offer much guidance as to helping the government decide which religions make the cut.

Instead of using ‘familiarity’ the government could instead use demographics, but this approach is also fraught with challenges. There has to be some cutoff, so the government ultimately has to decide how many believers are needed for a religion to make the cut. Could the government set a threshold of 0.5% of the population? So in other words, if 0.5% of the population follow a religion we include them as one of our sample prayer list.

But there are problems with this approach. There’s the issue of how we go about asking questions about religion and religious affiliation in the census. So, for example, in the census, they will ask people, “Which religion are you affiliated with?” But that doesn’t necessarily track with beliefs — with people’s actual beliefs. It just identifies their affiliation.

A while ago there was a survey of Quebecers, for example, which is cited in the paper: 75% of Quebecers were identified as Catholic and only 28% said they strongly believe in a God. So, this is a bit of a problem. People can culturally affiliate with a religion, even if their beliefs don’t track with all the beliefs of that religio. Secular Jews are a good example of this.

But there are other complications and problems with the Census as well. There are 70 sects of Christianity included in the census, and some estimates suggest there are 33,000 Protestant denominations. However, in the census there are no subcategories for Judaism, Buddhism, and Islam. But, for example, there’s a huge difference between Orthodox Judaism and Reformed Judaism. And this is also the case with different sects in Islam or Buddhism. So there are different levels of granularity; is the Clerk going to include one prayer from every Protestant sect and one Jewish prayer? You can start seeing how this really breaks down both practically and constitutionally.

Because the government is also making a lot of problematic choices: “This is a valid religion and this isn’t a valid religion,” or, “This is a group worthy of recognition. This is a group that is not worthy of recognition.” “This sect difference should be considered. This sect difference should not be considered.” And the government lacks a basis for making any of these choices.

So instead of familiarly or demographics, the Clerk could look at the demographics of the legislature. So, for example, the Clerk could say, “Okay, 12% of the legislature identify as Christian. We’re going to have 12% of the sample prayers being Christian prayers,” and so on, and so forth.

The problem there, of course, is that this is incredibly invasive and an issue with privacy, as the Clerk would have to ask personal questions of MLAs about their religious beliefs. And second of all, the Clerk would have to ask MLAs constantly, because people’s religious views change over time. It is not like someone is born a Christian and remains a Christian, or is born of reformed Jew and stays a reformed Jew their whole life. People’s views change over time. So the Clerk would have to be constantly asking MLAs, or at the very least do so after every election or by-election.

So these are some of the challenges associated with selecting which religions you solicit prayers from, but there are further complications. The next question that needs to be tackled it “Who do we ask to submit prayers?” Now, it is somewhat easy, for example, with religions like Catholicism, because you could ask a archbishop for prayer, but for less centralized and hierarchical religions, the situation is more complicated.

If you have religions that do not have a hierarchy, then the question of who you ask to submit a prayer is a challenge. If multiple members of a religious tradition submit prayers, the government/Clerk have no ability to decide between them, because, as we’ve discussed, the state has no ability to arbitrate matters of dogma and it can’t pick one subset over another without violating its duty of religious neutrality.

Consider, for example, a Reform Jewish Congregation from Victoria submits a prayer and then the Reform Synagogue in Vancouver also submits a prayer. The state would have no ability to arbitrate between those two prayers. How could it? The BC Government is in no position to say which sample prayer best captures the beliefs of Reform Judaism, and short of issues relating to punctuation and grammar has no basis for electing one prayer over the other, and if it did so, it would violate its duty of religious neutrality.

Moving beyond differentiating between congregations, you have other problems relating to who you actually ask to provide a sample prayer — do you ask people in positions of leadership within a congregation or members? A prayer selected by a priest, for example, may not be the same prayer selected by a lay person of the same faith. For many faith traditions, asking people in positions of leadership means asking men, as many faith traditions restrict or prohibit women from holding certain forms of priesthood or positions of their clergy. This excludes a wide range of perspectives, to say the least, and is strongly biased in favour of prayers favoured by men in positions of leadership within a faith tradition.

Assuming that all of these problems can be addressed, both practically and constitutionally, there is the outstanding matter of deciding who to ask to submit non-religious invocations.

A 2016 Insights West survey found that 69% of British Columbians claimed to not practice or participate in a particular religion or faith. Of those, 44% believed in a higher power or said they believed in a higher power. How do we possibly survey this group to ensure that their views are reflected in the sample list of prayers that are being offered by MLAs and delivered in front of the B.C. legislature? You have atheists, you have humanists, you have agnostics, but you also have people who have ‘spiritual beliefs’ or religious practices. It is a Herculean task.

As we argue in the paper, it is virtually impossible for the Office of the Clerk to derive a list a prayer for nonbelievers. First, because some of them probably won’t contribute it; second, because this is such a diverse group and the government would struggle to identify organizations that capture all of this diversity of views.

Due to the myriad of different religious sects and the diversity of beliefs among the nonreligious, the government could revert to soliciting prayers from the general public. This is one possible solution to some of the issues we outline in the paper, but it still comes with the problem of how the government could possibly pick which prayers to use from any submissions it receives, as doing so would again violate the state’s duty of religious neutrality and its prohibition on arbitrating matters of dogma.

The sheer volume of sample prayers that would likely be submitted would further complicate the ‘public submission’ approach. When the Ontario Legislative Assembly explored the issue of no longer starting their daily sessions with the Lord’s Prayer, they received 11,000 responses from the public and it basically broke their internet and their email system.

Handling any volume of public submissions would be a challenge for the Office of the Clerk, which only has a few staff and has other responsibilities to the BC Legislature. With this approach, we would basically be asking them to first sift through thousands of emails submissions while they lack the ability to choose between any of them.

Ultimately, as we argue in the paper, the Office of the Clerk faces practical challenges to selecting and drafting a list of sample prayers.

In addition to these practical issues, you have a huge constitutional challenge at every single step. Every time a bureaucrat tries to make a decision about who to ask, what to ask, what to include, they’re making choices that violate their duty of religious neutrality. This is a huge problem.

In the paper, we strongly advocated that legislative prayer be abolished for a wide range of reasons, but if is to continue, the idea of having a sample prayer sheet is problematic and should be abolished.

The BC Legislature should not have a sample sheet of prayers because that violates the state’s duty for religious neutrality.

Jacobsen: How do you define a religion?

Phelps Bondaroff: I do not think I would. I tend to define it more broadly, but any time you set up a barrier or criteria, you can find a counterexample of a religion that does not meet that criteria. If you say that a religion need a god or gods, for example, one need only point to a non-theistic religion that challenges this criteria.

I do not think it is worth noting is there are some states that have set definitions of religion. Obviously, there are problems with this approach as well. Having a set definition does allow you to hold up a belief system to it and ask “does this meet the definition,” however there are still problems. Presuming that your definition is not biased, which I think would be quite impossible to do, a set definition would allow you to at least overcome some of the hurdles that we present in the paper. But you would end up excluding many faith traditions that do not meet the definition, and I could foresee the situation arising whereby the definition would be either so broad as to render it useless, or too narrow such that it excludes too many belief systems. There are many hurdles and challenges when it comes to defining what constitutes a religion.

Jacobsen: Will there be some criteria at a minimum for inclusion as a religion without a formal set, complete comprehensive definition of religion?

Phelps Bondaroff: I can tell you with some of the legal cases I’ve talked about. But I think that the problem is that you can always find it outliers, and too many of the definitions I’ve seen become circular.

Jacobsen: And that’s why we have typing and editing.

Phelps Bondaroff: So, for example, the Canada Revenue Agency’s definition can be found in some of their policies on charities. They say that to ‘advance religion in a charitable sense,’ means to promote the spiritual teachings of a religious body and maintain doctrines and spiritual observances on which those teachings are based. There must be an element of theistic worship, which means the worship of a deity or deities in the spiritual sense.

Okay, so, let’s explore the problems of that definition. First of all, ‘the spiritual teachings of a religious body,’ that implies that there must be some organization or entity that organizes the religious teachings. This would exclude a lot of different faith traditions that don’t have central organized structures and that just follow teachings. Or the term body refers to an informal group, in which case determining the limits of that group could be a challenge.

This brings up the question of belief versus practice. We can’t see inside people’s heads. We can look at how they practice religion and then use this as an example of their beliefs, but people practice religions in different ways.

There’s been some really interesting American court cases on this front. There was a case concerning the wearing of religious symbols in prisons and the idea of folk religion. The court case was about prisoners who wanted the right to wear a cross. There were lots of concerns by the prison officials about whether this should be allowed, as they saw the wearing of religious symbols as potentially leading to violence and potentially serving as a gang sign.

there is no provision within the Bible that says, “You have to wear cross around your neck.” But a lot of people do. It is an important part of their faith tradition. Thus, wearing a cross around your neck isn’t a religious requirement written down in a book — like dietary or clothing requirements — but it is part of what is often referred to as ‘folk religion.’

So, if you were simply interpreting the Canada Revenue Agency’s policy, it is unclear what is meant by “the spiritual teachings of the religious body” and where we might find these. Do we only look at things that are written down in religious books? There’s no requirement, for example, Christians wear a cross around their neck. But that’s a common practice.

There are other questions that flow from this, like how does one interpret what is actually written down in a religious book? And who gets to make this interpretation? Which books should be consulted? Which text do you pick?

And then, of course, why rely on texts at all. Relying on rules written in religious books is necessarily biased in favour of text based religions at the exclusion of ones that might rely on oral traditions.

There are other problems with the CRA definition as well — it emphasized theistic worship. Whether this refers to a deity or deities is beside the point that it is biased in favour of theistic religions over non-theistic religions or religious practices and faith traditions.

Another problematic aspect is that there must be an element of ‘theistic worship,’ which means that worship of a deity or deities in a spiritual sense. What does that even mean? This is basically creating a more complex definition by introducing terms that are even less well-defined. I think most people would agree that defining what is ‘spiritual’ is even more complicated than defining ‘religion.’

I think there are many more papers to be written about definitions of religion, so not to go on for too long, but the idea is that any time you try to establish these kinds of criteria, to define what constitutes a religion, you can find an outlier and at a certain point a definition either includes everything or includes too narrow a range of things.

So I do not know if I would hazard a definition of what constitutes religion, because I think anything I would offer would have limitations and it would necessarily be based on my own personal biases and interests. I have looked at various religions around the world, but I’m sure I’ve missed many and have not had a chance to study others in any depth. As a result, any definition of religion I could come up with would be incomplete. I should add that it’s okay for an academic to toy with different definitions while trying to explore an issue, or to explore and establish parameters in order to present a coherent argument in a paper, but it is not okay for the state to do this because there are constitutional prohibitions on the state doing so.

Jacobsen: And so, what are some of the next steps from Arbiters of Faith paper at this point?

Phelps Bondaroff: From a practical perspective, we’re finishing up the peer review. I wanted to underscore how important peer review can be. Peer review is an amazing way of producing more rigorous research and strengthen existing work and really engaging other scholars.

When it is done, it will be published in the journal of Secularism & Nonreligion. I also hope that we have made a sufficiently strong case such that we are able to convince the Office of the Clerk to abandon their practice of creating and offering a list of sample prayers to MLAs. I hope that the B.C. legislature to completely abandons the use of sample prayers in the first place.

I would prefer, obviously, that the practice of opening sessions of the BC Legislature with prayer would be ended, but if it must continue there shouldn’t be a sample list, because any use of a sample is a further violation of the state’s duty of religious neutrality.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Phelps Bondaroff.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 35: The ‘Fuck You’ Stance

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/17

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about cult-infused politics.

*Interview conducted March 1, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, Trump came out. He’s given his first speech since his second impeachment, failing to win at the election, and the inauguration of the Biden-Harris administration. What are some thoughts on that speech? And how does this impact the secular community, especially around New York, where he’s a native?

Jonathan Engel: He’s a native of New York, but he’s really not one of our own. New York City voted overwhelmingly twice against him. So, we don’t really like him. He moved out of New York State. Technically, now, he’s a resident of Florida, which, of course, they can have him. But the nature of the speech is very interesting. It’s putting the Republican Party in an interesting position, which they all deserve, by the way. But this has become a Trump party. It is more of a cult at this point than it is a political party. You can see that at CPAC. You can see the cold nature of it. I’m not even getting into the golden statue, which is a little bit frightening, actually. But there’s not a single person who could get up on that stage without risking their life potentially and say, “Look, Joe Biden won this election, the 2020 election.”

He just did. Now, the dogma that was required to seemingly to stay in the Republican Party is that Trump really won. They have lots of people going, “Well, Trump wasn’t the only one who got up there and said, “I won.” When he lost, and lost quite decisively, one of the interesting things about the Republican Party is that they did something highly unusual this year that got some attention, but not as much as I think it should have, which is that they never bothered to put out a party platform. They never bother, which is something that political parties, the Democrats and the Republicans, do every year at their conventions. They put out a platform. This is sort of like, “Well, this is, basically, what we believe.” There are different segments of a party that some would want this and some would want that.

And there’s usually some fighting over the platform. Of course, it’s not a binding document or anything. It’s more of a statement of principles. But this year, the Republican Party did not put out a platform. They just had, basically, Donald Trump, and that is a cult. That is what we’re talking about here. People who are simply away from any kind of reality and the entire party is about worshipping one person. Like all cults, people are immune who are in a cult, or frequently immune, from any kind of rational discussion about issues or truth or anything like that. That is very frightening. But as for what it means for not just people in New York, but for this country, etc., and for what it means for, especially for a secular humanist like, me, it is very disconcerting because as a secular humanist: I believe in facts.

I believe in using the scientific method to come to our beliefs. If you’re in a cult, if whatever the great leader says, “We love him, and will bow down to him,” thenou’re going to be immune from that type of thing. So, I think it’s the eve of Trump’s speech. Again, it’s interesting he attacked more Republicans than he did Democrats in that speech because it’s all about following him. There’s no independent thought allowed and independent thought is the heartbeat of Secular Humanism of deciding for yourself, but not following the dogma, not following any particular set of beliefs. But rather thinking for yourself, using science, using evidence and coming to your own conclusions, that’s so much at the heart of Secular Humanism, what we saw at CPAC was a repudiation of that.

We saw the idea of “facts and evidence don’t matter.” The big lies are coming faster and faster. We saw the big lie. Of course, the big, big lie is that Trump actually won the election. But there are other lies that are coming to the fore as well. That are pushed at a place like CPAC and the requirement is that you believe it, whether it’s true or not; it doesn’t matter. You were required to believe it. I think that does not bode well for the country going forward.

Jacobsen: Is the individual Freethought stance more or less the New York stance, the ‘fuck you’ stance?

Engel: It’s an interesting question. Yes, I think so. I think New Yorkers are known for being brash and opinionated and feel we can say what we want. I think that is a kind of very much a New York City thing. I don’t know about New York State, but that’s a New York City thing. There are religious fanatics in New York City, but not a lot of them. That is a New York City attitude that, “I’m going to say whatever the hell I want.” There are very few sacred cows to people in New York City. It’s like if you want to call the president a jerk, call him a jerk. That’s sort of our ethos here. So, I think what went on at CPAC, which is basically the Republican Party at this point; if there’s anybody in the Republican Party who opposes these people, they’re few and far between.

And they see what happens to people who oppose Trump and his cult. So, I think that what we’re seeing here, again, from people in a New York City standpoint and a Freethought standpoint, which are, as you mentioned, similar with free speech and saying whatever the hell we want. That’s just part of it. We’re very opinionated. We tend to be a little bit on the brash side and a little bit on the brisk side. But you say what you feel and you say what you want. that we have a party that is opposed not only to get a free inquiry and where it will go, but it’s opposed to science, is opposed to facts in general, that it certainly is an anti-Freethought attitude. I would want to consider it an anti-New York City attitude. That facts don’t matter; this is all we have. It’s like, “Facts do matter. They matter and when they stop mattering”; that’s when you really get into a totalitarian mindset. It’s not the type of thing that people in New York City are going to accept.

Jacobsen: Thank you for your time today, Jon.

Engel: Speak to you next week, Scott.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 24: Hispanic Evangelicals, White Atheists, and White Evangelicals

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/16

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

I have published over a dozen articles in a number of well regarded peer reviewed journals including Politics & Religion, the Journal for the Scientific Study of Religion, the Review of Religious Research, the Journal of Religious Leadership, Representation, Politics, Groups, and Identities, the Journal of Communication and Religion, the Journal of Religion, Media and Digital Culture and the Social Science Computer Review.

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about the religious self-identification, age period cohort analysis, Hispanic Evangelicals, and white atheists versus white Evangelicals.

*Interview conducted October 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, as I noted, the obvious trend of an increase in self-identified Nones in surveys, also that’s the less interesting part. That’s the obvious answer to a lot of questions. Another non-obvious idea was differences in the gaps between generations who identify as Nones. Yet, another aspect that is interesting is if you stretch the timelines of generations over time, so you take cross-sections of those slices. So, when you look at these different generations, Gen X, Millennials, what’s the gap there between, 12 years ago and one year ago in terms of self-identification? Some of the days that I was noting: Gen X is 25% 2008, then 36% in 2019; Millennials 33% in 2008, then 43% in 2019. How is this slicing up as well in terms of a differentiation of self-identification in regards to religious identity?

Professor Ryan Burge: So, there’s this thing called age period, cohort analysis. It is like a whole way to think about the way we move through life because we all turn 18, but we all don’t turn 18 at the same time. And that doesn’t mean the same thing to each of us when we turn 18. So, I turn 18 in 2000. That’s a lot different from a kid turning 18 in 2020. So, what we need to do is compare 18 -year-olds from 2000 or 18-year-olds to see what the difference is that those are called birth cohorts. So, what we do is we break people into groups of five years of birth. So, like 1980-1985, 1986-1990. And we tracked those cohorts and how their religiosity changes as they age through the life cycle, and what we find is that people do become more unaffiliated as they age through. But it is not as much as you would think it is. It doesn’t go up dramatically as they age, at least until the last couple of birth cohorts with any increase as they age through. But what we see instead is where they start when they’re 18, keeps going up and up and up when it comes to religious disaffiliation.

So, every birth cohort is like two or three points more None by the birth cohort before them. And that number just keeps going up and up and up and up. And it rises slightly as they age, too. So, what’s happening is people are not disaffiliating as they age as much as they are. Every successive birth cohort is becoming less religiously unaffiliated as the prior birth cohort. And that’s just moving through, moving through, moving through. So, what we’re going to see is, not a lot of new conversions as adults, but you’re seeing the shift. Their kids are going to be more religiously unaffiliated than the next generation kids, the next generation kids, and on and on and on, until, as we just talked about, there will be a plateau where there’s going to just be a level where it hits and stops and stays there for a long time. I don’t know where that number is, but it seems like we’re coming up on it, at some point.

Jacobsen: So, Hispanic Evangelicals in this group. Why are Hispanic Evangelicals so much more Republican than non-Evangelical Hispanics?

Burge: The reality is on social issues, Hispanic Evangelicals are more conservative on social issues than white Evangelicals are. For instance, 45% of Hispanic Evangelicals think abortion should be illegal for any reason. It is only 32% for white Evangelicals and gay marriage are just as likely to oppose gay marriage. Hispanic Evangelical versus white Evangelical, however, what’s interesting about Hispanic Evangelicals is they are more conservative than Hispanics as a whole. But they’re more liberal than white Evangelicals are. They live between two identities, let’s say, of the Evangelical piece and racial piece. Immigration, they’re actually pretty moderate. And, in terms of things like the Dream Act, they’re much more moderate than your white Evangelicals are. So, they’re stuck between two worlds. What identity pulls them to the right and what identity pulls them to the left, they stay in the middle. And they could be an important voting bloc in 2020 because they’re located in some key states. It might matter. States like Ohio, states like Texas, states like Florida, states like Arizona, all these states could matter in 2020 and they could sway the election depending on how they do change their vote dramatically in 2016.

Jacobsen: What is the most conservative cross-section of America, religiously and ethnically? So, for instance, you had white Evangelicals that are conservative, who have many issues. Hispanic Evangelicals are more conservative than them. And even though Evangelicals as a category are conservative, what other variables can one add into a sociological category or set of them to make like the most conservative group in the United States?

Burge: Yes, so, the most conservative group in America, is easily white Evangelicals across the board. They’re not as concerned on social issues. They’re more concerned with things like racial issues or even economic issues, things like taxation, government programs like Medicare, Medicaid, Social Security, things like that. But the most liberal group would be atheists. And I think it would be white atheists who have looked at that recently. But I would think that white atheists tend to be even more to the left of all of these, which aren’t large groups we’re talking about. Atheists are only 6% of the population and they’re predominantly white. So, you’re talking about non-white atheists, probably 2% of the population in total. But I would think that I know that atheists are most likely to identify as liberal on a spectrum from liberal to conservative more than any other group. For instance, black Protestants are primarily Democratic. Like 88% of black Protestants vote for Democrats, but they don’t identify as liberals as much. Atheists identify as Democrats, but also identify as liberal. So, it makes them more liberal than your black Protestants because black Protestants are somewhat conservative on things like views of the Bible, abortion, gay marriage, things like this. And while atheists are obviously way farther to the left on those issues. So, I think the two polar opposites are atheists. White atheists on one side and your white Evangelicals on the other side.

Jacobsen: Thank you so much for your time, as always, informative.

Burge: Always a pleasure, Scott.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 34: Vetting Process for Secularist Interviews

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/15

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about conspiracy theories and the substantial denial of the scientific method in American society.

*Interview conducted February 22, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This is ‘Ask John 726.’ So, when you’re getting invitations for interviews, as I sometimes do, how would you approach vetting those? In particular, how would you approach vetting invitations to various religious groups, conservative, liberal, moderates, etc., for your community that you’re a leader of – in New York for the secular humanists?

Jonathan Engel: Well, my default going in is that, generally speaking; I’m willing to talk to anybody. I like the idea of discussions. But I also get the sense – because I can hopefully, I think, have a certain amount of charm – that it’s good for people who are religious to talk to somebody like me. Because afterwards, maybe, they come away with saying, “Hey, I now know an atheist who is not a really bad guy. He seems like he’s OK.” So, generally speaking, that’s just general. Generally speaking, I am open to conversation. But, of course, I want to make sure that the people I’m talking to have some sort of positive agenda in mind. I mean in this day and age, I think and say these words, but in this day and age; you’ve got to worry about your own actual physical safety.

But barring that someone’s going to get so mad at me and now they know who I am and they’re going to come after me, which is a concern, I think the other point that you want to look at is: Are you really looking to have a conversation with me, or is this like I’m going to be the featured event in a stoning? If you want to talk to me, great. If you want to yell at me, well, I have a fairly large family. I don’t need to speak to you to get yelled at. My brothers and sisters do it all the time. So, that’s the way I approach it from a general viewpoint. Generally, I’m positive about such things. I welcome speaking to anybody. But yes, I do try to be a little bit wary, just to make sure of safety concerns.

And again, what are your intentions? Do you really want to just have a nice talk and dialogue, where we can discuss our differences and, maybe, even hopefully, some similarities? Or are you looking for a bogeyman so that your parishioners can play pop the bear or something? If that’s what you’re after, then I’m not interested. But I also reserve the rivals; sometimes, you go into it and you don’t know. So, I reserve the right, if I go into it, and if that’s what it seems like it’s turning into, then I can say, “You know what folks, I don’t think this is productive. Good night,” just turn them off.

Jacobsen: Where would you draw the line on having a conversation? What groups would you not have a conversation with?

Engel: Well, any group that is in any way involved in violence, promotes violence in any way, shape, or form. I can’t see where I could find common ground with a group like that. It’s hard to say. There was a group called the Westboro Baptist Church. These people were as wild as you can get. they would go to funerals during the AIDS crisis. They would go to funerals for people who are homosexual and with signs up that say, “God hates fags.” I can’t imagine having a conversation with anybody like that, even if they’re not directly violent; it’s just there’s just no way that we can even say two words to each other without it becoming a brawl.

So, I think there are some limits. However, I don’t necessarily know that those limits involve just how religious you are. I guess even if you were really fundamentalist religious; I think that we could still potentially have a conversation. So, I wouldn’t cut that off automatically, but I would be wary about it.

Jacobsen: Where have you been in a situation in which you have had to actually do that?

Engel: I do know that I have. I’ve been in some interesting situations. I was at a high school, a little over a year ago. I was invited to a high school where they had all sorts of people from different religions, and they wanted a secular person to engage with students and things like that. Everyone, my comfort level there was medium. But the kids were great. That was the best part of it. Some of the religious leaders looked at me slightly askance. But it didn’t really bother me. They were, again, basically polite. So, that was an interesting day. But I don’t think that I’ve ever been in one before where I had to say, “Okay, I’m cutting this off because it’s gotten so far out of hand.” I think if anybody has got questions; I think I can handle them/

As I have mentioned before, I’m a lawyer. I’ve gone into court and had judges asking me questions that were completely out of left field. That hadn’t been briefed and whatever. So, I can think pretty quickly on my feet. I believe what I believe. Part of it is the confidence that comes from that, too. My position, to be honest with you, I think it’s a correct one. So, I don’t think I’m likely to be too much thrown by questions. I’ve kind of heard them all by now. A lot of them come down to the “no atheists in foxholes” thing. “What are you going to do when you’re in the final hour of life?”, “What do you think when you’re just about to die, when you’re on the death bed?”, “What are you going to say? What are you going to do?” I think I’ve handled that kind of stuff enough to go into something like that and be reasonably confident that it’ll come out okay.

Jacobsen: Yes, I’ve gotten some interview requests. Ironically, the one that I permitted was when I was writing for some fashion organizations. This is true, Jon. I was writing for them. An Icelandic fashion designer who’s now got involved with fashion design with artificial intelligence – really fascinating stuff. They asked, “Can I interview you?” I said, “Sure.” So, somewhere in Iceland, this fashion company, there’s an interview with Scott Jacobsen for her publication there now. But it seems more appropriate to send a recommendation to someone else who’s appropriate. So, for instance, what I received recently was from New York, that’s another country and on the other side of the continent. So, for me, I figured I can email someone like yourself and say, “Here’s someone appropriate. Would you be interested?” I think, maybe, that might be a reasonable policy because someone who lives in that area in New York City, the greater New York area, New York State, they can speak to those cultural concerns within an American secular New York context better than a Canadian, in a small village, in British Columbia. It’s just different, but they’re similar.

Engel: I could definitely see that. I’ll tell you. I think I told you this story before about a couple of years ago at a small dinner party with my wife and invited by people who live in my building. A couple in my building and the other people, some of whom also live in my building, but nobody I really knew. When someone asked, “Well, I think these people all kind of knew each other. We were sort of the new people who had been invited.” Someone asked me what I do. And I throw out the usual. Then I said I’m also the president of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. A woman who was there said like sort of half out of her breath, but I certainly heard it.

“I hope you’re not one of those God-haters.”

I played it right.

I said, “Well, to be honest with you,” I said, “I don’t hate anybody.”

I certainly try not to hate anybody. I don’t think hates a good thing to carry around with you, for a person to have. The rest of that evening, the issues of secularism or religion did not come up. But I chatted with this woman. After that, every time she goes through the building, she’s like, “Oh, hi, how are you?” So, I hope that I accomplished with that. Something that I would want to accomplish with an upstate church or something, which is just show, “Here, you’ve just met an atheist. A nice guy, likable,” maybe you even like him. So, in a way that sort of normalizes our viewpoint, that’s just a different viewpoint. You have your people who believe in the Holy Trinity. You have your people who believe in Allah. You have people who believe in Buddha. You have your people who do not believe in any of those particular things.

And to be considered just another one of those groups, and that you don’t really know a person, I think any reasonable person would say, “This person may be a Buddhist. This person may be a Hindu, but I don’t know them until I get to know them. I can’t place a judgment on whether or not I like them and think they’re a good person.” It’s the same thing all along trying to get people to feel the same way about an atheist. That “he’s an atheist, but I don’t know him. Could it be that I would like him if he’s a good person?” If you can get just a few people to alter that way of thinking, I think that’s accomplishing something.

Jacobsen: John, thank you so much for your time.

Engel: It’s always my pleasure, Scott. you take care now.

Jacobsen: Take care.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 23: Born-Again Catholic

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/14

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about the Born-Again Catholics and the rest.

*Interview conducted October 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Something interesting is a 2019 CCS report looking at the number of Nones – atheists, agnostics, and nothing in particulars. The Silents were sitting at 15% Boomers at 25%, Gen X 38%, Millennials are 43%, Gen Z are 47%, identifying as Nones. Now, I’m less interested in the obvious trend. I’m more interested in the gap between the Silents and the Boomers, Boomers and Gen X, because those gaps are much bigger than between Gen X and Millennials, and Millennials and Gen Z identifying as Nones. Why those big gaps of 10% and 13% compared to 5% and 4%?

Professor Ryan Burge: Yes, I think there is a plateau happening. You can see a shadow of it in the data. There’s a hard cap on how big the Nones can get in America. But I think it is right about 40%, maybe a little bit higher, 45%. But I just think there’s a strong contingent in America that is not going to give up. But the other part of this, too, we have a lot of immigrants, the younger generations who are Muslims, Hindus, Buddhists and those groups too. So, if you add those groups together, then you get close to 50%. So, what’s going to happen is your Nones can never go above that; unless you get a lot of hardcore religious people to give up their faith and become Nones. I think what you’re getting right now is the low-hanging fruit. That’s what the younger Boomers and Gen X are doing. You get a lot of those people becoming Nones. But once you get to that 40, 45% threshold, I think you get a lot of resistance.

And I don’t think those numbers are going to continue to climb into the ether. They’re not going to go like 55%. I just don’t see any future in America where, at least in my lifetime, 55% of Americans are Nones because there’s just this large and strong bloc of Americans who are going to be faithful people no matter what. About half of Americans have not just a little bit more. So, I think that’s why you’re seeing that increase is slow and the generations get younger because you’re bumping up against that ceiling that’s going to be there for a long, long time.

Jacobsen: Within Catholic news or Catholic circles, there’s been a literal crisis of faith for many. Not in traditional terms, it is in real terms based on what they sincerely believe, the idea of the particular incantations during baptism being wrong for prior generations, for decades, even using the wrong words and, therefore, their baptisms becoming illegitimate in the eyes of the Catholic Church. In other words, they’re going to hell, not heaven, in their theology. Mike Pence had another situation, in which October 7^th, was talking about himself as self-describing as a Born-Again Catholic. As Jerry Seinfeld would say, “What’s the deal with that?” Why is that so problematic when there is an increasing sentiment among conservative Catholics of being “devout”?

Burge: Yes, so, the Catholics, I call it the Evangelicalization of all of Christianity. The whole born again idea was an Evangelical idea rooted in Evangelical culture, Evangelical theology, Evangelical history. But I think other groups have begun to – I don’t want you to co-opt it – borrow that language. When they talk about their own faith tradition. I think for some Catholics, I don’t even look at Evangelicals and say Evangelicals are devout. They’re serious about their faith. And I’m a Catholic. I’m serious about my faith too, where a lot of people are just cultural Catholics. They’re Catholic by default. They want to say to people, “I’m Catholic. I go to Mass. I believe in the doctrines. I practice a certain lifestyle.” So, they take on that Evangelical moniker because it is a way to differentiate themselves from just the casual Catholics they see around. So, what we’re seeing is more and more people now, almost 40% of Catholics are saying they’re born again, which is crazy in some surveys.

It just doesn’t make any theological sense. And even here is the one that I look at, I saw that almost 20% of Catholics said they were born again or Evangelical in 2016. So, the numbers are increasing when it comes to these “Born-Again Catholics.” I think for Mike Pence as a way for him to say, “I like you. I know I’m Catholic, but I’m one of you. So, you don’t see me as being different or other. We’re fighting for the same causes and playing on the same team.” And I think we’re seeing more and more of that in Catholicism, this divergence between the Evangelical Catholics and the non-Evangelical Catholics. I think it poses a real problem for a church because they can’t split like many churches do. They have to fight out their differences and try to keep it all together.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 33: Scientific Method Rejection and Conspiratorialism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/13

*Interview conducted February 1, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, Canada has its own share of conspiracy theories, its own sources of spreading it. A lot of them have a lot of overlap with the United States. I’m not just talking about Bigfoot or Yeti. For the United States, those that were on the fringe entered a bit of the mainstream, got a bit of steam, impacted politics, even ended up in the deaths and murders of people. So, conspiracy theories, irrationalism, have real consequences on people’s lives. The United States, there is more freedom of thought than anywhere else in the world, by far.

So, there’s going to be a lot fewer boundaries in terms of a lot of positive things about free thought, but also a lot of the bad things about free thought in terms of the following: you can piece together any hodgepodge of materials cognitively and come up with weird theories and, hence, can become conspiracy theories. So, what are the origins of QAnon? How is this related to standard religions, as you define them in the United States, as people are taught in church and mosque and synagogue?

Engel: Well, I was curious when we watched a film, which, of course, I’ve watched so much of what happens at the Capitol on January 6. We see that there were, of course, people out there with their Trump flags, etc., and all sorts of different flags. But included, you had people, a lot of people wearing QAnon symbols and carrying QAnon banners. You also had people with banners, etc., talking about Christianity. We’re hearing the name of Jesus. I saw a film of the guy who has become known as the QAnon Shaman. Anyway, the guy with the horns and then with the fur pelts.

And the thing is he and a bunch of others of these mob mobsters, these thugs went into the Senate chamber and immediately started off with a prayer that ‘we are here in the name of Jesus Christ.’ But it’s interesting, you don’t see too many people making that connection. Because you look at QAnon which started, maybe, five years ago. It started with this idea that there was a pizza parlour in Washington D.C., where in the basement, Democrats and liberals and a worldwide conspiracy of globalists were abusing, sexually abusing, and murdering children, eating them, cannibalism, drinking their blood. Hillary Clinton, how could anybody in the world possibly believe that?

But people did. By the way, that particular pizza parlour is just a little offside the building it’s located in doesn’t have a basement. But of course, it’s in the basement where all this stuff is happening. Some died right after, in 2016, I think about the height of that insanity. Some guy drove to North Carolina to this pizza parlour with a rifle and shot into the ceiling and said, “Show me where the kids are being held.” Of course, he’s in prison now. You can almost feel bad for him because he was brainwashed. Obviously, he was not the sharpest knife in the drawer, to begin with. But you think about it, they said, “Well, how can people possibly be susceptible to believing something so out there, so insane?”

And of course, it goes without saying, so evidence-free. What I think part of the answer is, “Well, where do people learn to believe in something that they have no evidence for?” My answer to that is in church, in the synagogue, in the temple, in the mosque, because that’s where they’re taught that it is not only okay to believe in something with no evidence, but it’s a sign of virtue.

“Yes, you’re a great believer. You have faith.”

You hear a choir and go, “Oh, that’s right.”

“So, you are. Aren’t you a good person? You’re a God-fearing person. That’s a good thing, right?”

Although, I always thought if God is as merciful and just as they say: Why should anybody be afraid?

But in any event, that’s where they learn the idea. I don’t see this outside of real secular circles in this country. I don’t see that being acknowledged that the problem starts there. That if anybody’s going to believe this craziness; that they become susceptible to believing things that are evidence-free, things that are really fantastical and evidence-free. They believe it. They’re taught from a very young age by religion that that’s a virtue. That it’s not only OK, but it’s a virtue to believe in such things. So, we shouldn’t be surprised that when they get older that they’re susceptible to believing things that are evidence-free, like ‘Donald Trump really won this election’ and ‘there’s widespread voter fraud.’

“Show me the evidence,” but that’s what I say; of course, they don’t have any. It doesn’t make any sense. Rudy Giuliani can go ahead and say, “I’ve got boxes full of evidence. But if he had them, why didn’t he show them to the courts that throw them out of court for the fact that he wasn’t producing any evidence? So, that connection in this country, that religious connection, of believing in things for which you have no evidence. As I said, it is not only okay, but a virtue. I think to me this needs a sociological standpoint. We should be investigating and thinking about, “Why are we susceptible to that?”

And I think that answer points to religion, but a religion in this country is so sacrosanct that very few people, not even liberal commentators, are willing to even broach that subject and talk about it. But I think, until we do, we’re in trouble because we’ve seen how these conspiracy theories do not lead anywhere good.

Jacobsen: What’s the percent of people in the United States who are, more or less, detached from a lot of the real world, detached from real information, so they can make valid judgments? If they don’t have accurate information, they can’t make valid judgments. I’m assuming an ability to make a rational discourse, even with the evidence. But just assuming that ability to rational discourse for them, individually, why is there so much disinformation around sufficing to make a large cohort of people believe en masse online?

Engel: Well, it’s interesting. When Trump was impeached for the first time, a lot of people were talking, making comparisons, and thinking about how this was similar to or different from the Nixon situation where he was actually impeached. But he resigned. He was headed toward impeachment. It’s pretty clear history believes they send him into impeachment, then quite possibly, or even probably, removal. I took offence to one of the things. That’s different today than back then; back then, if you got your news from TV, it was essentially ABC, CBS, and NBC News. They all played it pretty straight. They were not ideologically inclined to watch people, trusted Walter Cronkite with the news.

They did play it pretty straight. But today, of course, as we all know, there are many people who live within Fox News, Breitbart, Newsmax, etc., which is their bubble. That’s all they hear when they turn on their news at night. They’re looking at Sean Hannity and Laura Ingraham. That’s a lot different than Walter Cronkite. So, if you want to believe in these types of things, and if you are susceptible to it, it is not that hard to live within a bubble. You don’t go anywhere else. That’s where you get your news from, “I watch Sean Hannity. I go online to Breitbart. That’s where I get my news.”

So, we’re in that situation, which is very perilous for us. I do believe because people who are, again, susceptible to magical thinking almost from birth with their indoctrination into religion, then they’re susceptible to magical thinking. Then they go into an information bubble that feeds them only extreme rightwing talking points. They’re already susceptible to believing in things that have no evidence or etc. This is what you wind up with. You wind up with a whole bunch of QAnon believers. Although, I do think one thing that’s a little help is how these people really believed that Trump had some sort of magical power and that there’s no way that Biden was going to be inaugurated.

I read a few people. QAnon believers saying things like, “I was duped, wrong the whole time.” Here’s a hint. You were. But they were wrong the whole time. “I believe,” but Joe Biden gets inaugurated and right up until the moment he said “so help me God,” which, by the way, he doesn’t have to say to be inaugurated. But that’s another issue. But right up until the point, you said it, “I believe that something was going to happen, literally believe that police are going to swoop down and arrest them before he can take the oath of office and carry them away.” When it didn’t happen, some of them actually were like, “Did I?,” a little self-reflection. But it’s the type of thing that happens with the end of the world cults.

The world will end on this day. The day comes and goes, it doesn’t end. There are some people in the cults who say, “I was wrong. How did I believe this?” But there are others who will continue to press even further on, “Oh, what happened was…”, as if they have an explanation. “It didn’t end that day because we got a calculation wrong. But now, we know what the real calculation is and people who will hold on to it.” I think that’s what we’re seeing now in this country. We’re seeing some former QAnon believers realizing that; maybe, this was wrong all along. But we have a lot of others who were simply, as they say, “doubling down” this, that they’re not open to the cognitive dissonance of finding out that something they believed in so strongly was a bunch of bull is too much for them.

And so instead of acknowledging that and dealing with that dissonance, they’re just saying, “No, no, no, no, no, this is still right. It didn’t happen this way because…” and they just go further into it. But again, to circle back a little bit, I think that the religious, the extremely religious, practices in this country make people susceptible to believing in things that are fantastical and have no evidence. Until we can fight us – humanity, not just this country, but the whole world can fight its – way out of that, we’re going to have these types of outbreaks of completely irrational thinking.

Jacobsen: How have you been combating this in your tenure as the president of the Secular Society of New York? There are the skeptic communities, the humanist communities, the secular humanist communities, and the religious humanist communities. But how are you combating this in New York, which is a skeptic Golden State within a secular humanist framework in particular?

Engel: It’s interesting. Politically speaking, secularists don’t have a lot of power. There’s a lot of talk among us. I was just at an event with a bunch of other humanists in the New York area, some from New Jersey, some from Connecticut, etc. There’s a lot of talk about “How do we combat this?”, and also about the idea of us as a political bloc. There’s an old, old joke that organizing atheists is like herding cats. We’re free thinkers and, therefore, we’re not likely to be in some pigeonhole and march in lockstep together, which is what you need for political power in some ways. So, there’s a lot of talk about that.

One of the things we’re doing is we’re supporting the Congressional Freethought Caucus with donations to their members, etc. It’s only 13 members so far, but we’re hoping there’ll be more. Because one of the things, one of the tenets, is just the various types. One of their tenets is that government action should be based on evidence, evidence-based and not on dogma. I think if we can get that; the scientific method is so important. I wrote an essay on this last week or something about how we talk about science denial in this country. We largely talk about the denial of hard science like climate change.

But I think one of the real problems is not just the denial of hard science, but the denial of the scientific method. The scientific method, which says, “You have a hypothesis. You’re testing. You actually try to prove it wrong, because the only way you can know if it’s right, is that you’ve tried to prove it wrong and you couldn’t. We don’t believe things without proof and evidence.” So, I think one of the ways we try to fight with that is for people to let them know “we’re here”; “we’re a bloc looking to get our votes,” but also talking about one of our primary beliefs in our belief system: The scientific method.

Then saying, “Listen, government decisions should be based on good science, and that’s it.” So, you test. You may have a hypothesis. You try it out somewhere. You see if it works, even as much as you might believe that this is the thing, “I’m sure of it. I feel it in my gut.” If the evidence shows you that it doesn’t work, then you say, “I was wrong. It didn’t work. We have to try something different.” So, what we try to do is make that idea more widely known and talk about it, and also put it on newsletters, also in our letters to our elected representatives, “We as a bloc expect you, no matter what your personal religious beliefs are, when it comes to acting on behalf of the community in your governmental jobs, we expect you to abide by science and the scientific method, and to have policies that reflect good evidence and not preconceived beliefs.”

So, that’s one of the ways we do that. Another thing is just trying to be open about who you are. So, people can understand that it’s acceptable to not have supernatural beliefs. That the person next door could be me. He’s a nice guy who will help you with this or help you carry your packages and whatever, but has no supernatural beliefs. Hopefully, that could lead a few people to start questioning their own; I can only hope. But that’s how we roll about. We try to live a life based on reason and evidence and try to do that publicly, so that people, other people, can, hopefully, understand that that’s possible. You can live a very good life without believing in things for which you have no evidence and that really aren’t there.

Jacobsen: Jon, as always, thank you so much.

Engel: It’s my pleasure, as always Scott. Listen, you take care of yourself.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 22: Skin Tone, Racialism, and ‘Bible Banning’

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/12

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about the skin tone, racialism, and religious freedom issues in a religiously diversifying country.

*Interview conducted October 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When talking to biologists or reading of them, they’ll talk about species. They will not talk about race. But if you look at sociological conversations, they’ll talk about ethnicities. So, this is a folk, psychological, sociological reasoning coming out to the public in terms of how they’re identifying white, black, Hispanic, etc. So, when individuals in America are thinking of the category “white,” category “black,” etc., how are they identifying this? Is it just skin tone, then the assumption follows? How is this being reasoned through for most Americans?

Professor Ryan Burge: I would think it is the skin tone. I think Americans are blunt instruments. So, when they see someone, we go, “They look like me.” But also, I think, unfortunately, it goes down to like how they dress, how they talk, how they carry themselves. All those things tie into identifying racial identity. But I also think it is just, there’s this thing in American politics, especially Republicans. There’s a lot they talk about a real America, fake America, and rural America. But rural America, like small towns and villages across the middle part of the country, that don’t get a lot of play on the media, and fake America is like New York City and Philadelphia and Chicago and Los Angeles, California. There is a special divide in America.

And I think when you think of white, what they mean by “white” is “real America,” which means small-town values, Second Amendment rights, religion. It is about racial identity. It is about how they see the world. A lot of Americans just want to be around people who share their world, which makes sense to me. I believe that has to do, by the way, with how you see a lot of people who are comfortable with a more diverse climate moving to a more and more diverse climate, moving to a big city with racial diversity. People who are just comfortable and what they’re comfortable with, staying in small towns across America. And that’s what they’re comfortable with, right or wrong. So, I think it is more about “people like me.” People are good at figuring out who “people like me” are, who “share my values.” So, they just want to be around people who share their own values.

Jacobsen: So, 22% of Americans believe that a Democrat, presumably president, would ban the Bible. And 3, approximately, out of 10 Christians in America or 3 out of 10 believe that Christians’ religious freedoms are under a similar or the same circumstance. Why is this showing up in the data?

Burge: I think it is a totem pole more than anything else. It represents something. In that, I think it represents something that is not actual. I don’t think that many Republicans believe that Democrats are going to come in their House and scoop up their Bibles or put barricades on the church door. I think what they mean is that if a Democrat gets elected, they feel like they’re going to have less religious freedom and they’re going to be able to not do everything they’re used to doing. Okay, I think that’s what it is about. It is about a battle over ideas for the actuality and the idea that the Republican Party is the party of white Christians and the Democratic Party is the party of the Nones, the others, and, oftentimes, the non-white Christians.

And so, Republican politicians have been good about saying, “If you elect a Democrat, you’re going to have less religious freedom. You’re not going to read a Bible in public school, for instance, or have prayer in public school all the time. I think it is more about a symbol than it is about reality. I don’t think many Christians believe that Democrats are going to lock them up or whatever. I think what they believe is they’re going to have less freedom to practice their religion. And religious freedom is a big, big area of conflict in American politics today, things like in a Catholic school via a teacher coming out as LGBT or “do I have to make a cake for an LGBT couple if I don’t approve of that lifestyle?” These actually are really, difficult things to pass through. A difficult debate to have in a country with a lot of religious diversity.

And so, I think that the Bible thing is part of that bigger constellation of issues around religious liberty, where white Christians would have a lot of religious liberty to basically discriminate against whoever they want discriminated against. While most Americans are saying, “Yes, we believe in religious freedom, but you can’t treat other people poorly because of that.” And where those two things rub up against each other is where the conflict exists, I think those questions just happen at this larger idea about religious freedom versus pluralism and diversity.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 32: To be Witnessed to Witness Change

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/09

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about the need for the secular to stand up (and out).

*Interview conducted January 25, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we had the inauguration with newly elected and appointed, or newly elected and put into a formal place, President Joe Biden and Vice President Kamala Harris. Now, the language is different than the language of former President Trump. Yet the current language, especially the inauguration, has more reference still to a God in a proposed secular state or country, the United States. What are some of your concerns, even still with the inauguration of Joe Biden as a devout Catholic, making references to God in his speeches now?

Jonathan Engel: Well, it is concerning. First of all, let’s start with the fact, it’s a great sigh of relief when Joe Biden was inaugurated, he, I think, is a decent person. I think he’s reasonably smart. He’s surrounded himself with good people and considering where we were; I do think that if Donald Trump had somehow managed to stay president for another four years, then it could have been, seriously, the end of American democracy. So, I’m thrilled with Joe Biden like many Americans. But, yes, the references to God all over the place at the inauguration. It made me feel uncomfortable. I wish there would be some sort of reference, at least to the separation of church and state, and the right of secular people to be free from religious influence.

I know that he is a very religious person. But secular people in this country have rights, too. It’s not right that people like me should watch the inauguration with great pride in so many ways that we’ve overcome somehow, at least, for now, four years of horror. But I shouldn’t be meant to feel in any way unwelcome. Nobody should be meant to feel unwelcome at our country’s inauguration. This is an inauguration that’s supposed to be for everybody and the constant mentions of God. I don’t think from Biden’s part that he was intentionally trying to be exclusive or anything like that. I just think he probably didn’t think of it, which is an issue for secular people. There are a lot of secular people in this country.

There’s almost certainly more secular people in the United States than there are Jews, Muslims and Hindus put together. But I know that Biden would be careful to fight for the rights of Jews and Muslims and Hindus and Buddhists. Many members of the Democratic coalition are sure he would stand up for black people and Asian people and LGBTQ people and First Nations people. But what about us? And I think part of the answer to that is something I’ve been talking about with a lot of my secular friends, which is our need to be more open and forthright and to be more visible. I liken that in some ways to the gay rights movement where gay people, in council, they’d became visible. They were never going to get their rights without visibility.

In the Civil Rights era with black people advocating for rights and for the gay rights era, where gay people were advocating for rights, there were always others who probably meant well. But who said to them, “Go slowly, you don’t want to rock the boat too much. There are allies that we have in the white community or the straight community, depending on what we’re talking about, who are uncomfortable with militant agitation,” and stuff like that. The truth of the matter is until you stand up and come out, say who you are, and demand your rights; you’re just not going to get them. So, while many of us are very reluctant to press Biden at this point to make statements in favor of the rights of secular people, we should do it. Because he’s got so much stuff to do to try to save this country from ruin. On the other hand, I think that’s when we’re going to get that acknowledgement or our seat at the table – if we stand up for who we are and what we believe.

Jacobsen: Do you think that there’s a certain amplification effect based on the sounds of many secular people? So, maybe, one out of five secular people speak out and every one of three religious people speak out, as a hypothetical. Then, even though, there’s a growing number of secular people in the United States. The number of Christians who speak out and demand the rights more forcefully with more finances have much more of an amplification per capita because more people are active and more people are speaking for their particular religious freedoms than secular people in the United States.

Engel: Yes, absolutely, one of the things that I’ve been talking about, again, with my secular friends here in New York is that we’ve probably had a discussion with a bunch of people, recently, of Islam. We were talking about how someone brought up as anybody ever in a social situation felt uncomfortable, either because somebody said something about your secularism or somebody, or you were put into a position, “Okay, everybody, let’s pray.” Pretty much everybody in the group said, “Yes, that’s happened to me, at least once.” One guy that I know, a secular friend who has a hobby of cars, like vintage cars and stuff, he belongs to the Vintage Car Association and went to a meeting with like a national meeting of vintage car lovers.

When they started, the leader of the group said, “Okay, we’ll let start with a prayer.” He felt very uncomfortable about it. He said something to somebody. It was an uncomfortable situation. I understand that. I’ve had that happen to me, too, where I mentioned that I was a secular humanist.

“You’re an atheist…”

“…Oh my, you’re an atheist…”

“…You’re what?”

This assumption that I’m a horrible person. So, it’s difficult to speak out. I don’t know why the word “atheism” or “atheist” is so frightening and negatively weighted for so many people. To many, it means “bad person.” Logically, why should that be a bad person? Well, Of course, it shouldn’t happen in mind, logically; it makes no sense. But yes, it does inhibit us. So, since we are inhibited from speaking out for our mates, I think that it does hurt us from achieving the things that we want to achieve from a secular standpoint.

There are a lot of things I would like to achieve in our society, which have nothing to do with secularism or religion. But other things, I’d like to be in a country in which they observe the separation of church and state, especially in the government, very strictly; in which there’s an understanding that not everybody is religious, therefore, when we have rituals like an inauguration, it should be inclusive of people like me. I got to tell you. As much as I felt a lot of good feelings about this inauguration, I also felt a little bit like the outsider looking in because of all the mentions of God. Which every day, anything we’re talking about, when anybody mentions God, they’re always talking about their own. But it’s not right. It shows that we’ve got work to do.

Jacobsen: John, thanks so much for your time, as always.

Engel: Ok, Scott, listen take care, make sure you keep getting some sleep. [Ed. This is a common comment from friends – ‘get some sleep and stop working so much.’ To all of them, I love you – much, and noted.]

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 21: The Death Penalty and the Decline of a Majority

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/08

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about the death penalty, declining numbers, immigration, and identity.

*Interview conducted October 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, 40% of Catholics oppose the death penalty since the late 80s, 90s. That’s up 25%. Is the 25% up out of a total or 25% higher than the prior number?

Professor Ryan Burge: So in the end, around a quarter of Catholic supporters were opposed to the death penalty in 1990. So, that means 75% were in favor. And now by 2018, it is 40% oppose and 60% favor of the death penalty. That’s actually a pretty significant shift because they’re getting close to like 50/50. I think the death penalty is one of the most interesting aspects of American religion or politics, because it used to be an issue where if you’re a conservative, you were opposed to the death penalty. But now I think with the advent of DNA evidence, it is the things like the Innocence Project, where if you were wrongly accused of crimes and put in prison for a long time, I think you are realizing a lot of people in America are wrongly accused and wrongly jailed. And that’s giving people a lot more hesitation when it comes to the death penalty, realizing they have probably killed innocent people before.

Now, it is still an issue where most Americans do favour the death penalty. But it is an issue that’s changed, which I think it’ll be interesting to monitor that in 10, 15, 20 years as we hear more stories about this. If people of faith especially, and I think Catholics, are interested because they believe in what’s called a Consistent Ethic of Life, which means that life should be protected at the beginning, the middle, and the end; which means they’re opposed to abortion, but, they’re also opposed to the death penalty. So, if they believe the teachings of the church, they should be opposed to the death penalty as much as, if not more than, they’re opposed to abortion, which we actually don’t see. So, if you see the Catholic teachings, they are amongst Catholics going forward.

Jacobsen: Why do 55% of white Evangelicals in November of 2019 think there should be a reduction in legal immigration by 50%, with half of white Catholics agreeing with the same proposal? And atheists only sitting at 13%, agnostics at 18%, and Jewish peoples and Buddhist people sitting at 23% and 24%, respectively. What’s the reasoning there? How do ethnic and religious identities coincide there?

Burge: OK, so, there are two ways to look at this. One is that it is about conservative politics and conservative politics or anti-democratic across the board, both legal and illegal. There’s been a lot of discussion in America that immigrants are taking jobs away from Americans, are driving down wages for Americans, especially unskilled labour, things like factories. But I think it is pretty hard to ignore the fact that a lot of white Christians are xenophobic and potentially racist. They just don’t like America becoming less white. I think one of the important narratives in American politics is that America is becoming less and less white every year and less and less Christian every year. We’re up to the point now where in probably the next two or three years, less than half of Americans are going to be white Christians when we used to be a country of 75% or 80% white Christian.

So I think the reality is a lot of white Christians are scared about that future and they think if they stop immigration, it will slow that decline of white Christians and will allow white Christians to keep the majority in America, keep the power in America. So, that’s what Trump was about. Make America great again is what harkening back to a time of white Christians, held a lot of sway in American politics. And they don’t as much anymore. They’re losing power every year. So, I think a lot of this is tied up with power politics and realizing at some point they’re not getting a majority. They’re not going to run the country as they used to. And they want to keep it as long as they can. So, yes, that’s the reality, which is that white Christians did not want to see brown faces in their country.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 31: Capitol Jacquerie

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/08

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about the attack on Capitol Hill.

*Interview conducted January 11, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: It has been a few weeks since our last session. There have been some drastic events, some expected events. Most drastic was January 6^th. There was more or less an insurrection or a rampage against and in Capitol Hill by members of a Trump supporting group, squad. So, what seems to be the case around the instigation for all of this? Why didn’t Trump join them, even though he said he would join them?

Jonathan Engel: A couple of things. I’ll answer the second question first. Why didn’t Trump join them when he said he was going to join them? He is a coward. I think he’s a very, disturbed human being. And he is someone who is a malignant narcissist. And I worked for years at the New York State Office of Mental Health. And I’m not a mental health professional, but I learned enough to know that personality disorders are extremely difficult to treat. And he is one of the most severe and malignant people, (malignant) narcissistic personality disorder. So, not only is he a narcissist; he is also a sadist. He likes seeing violence. He likes his people beating them up. And if you don’t believe me, all you have to do is hear a set of clips from his rallies talking about “beating this guy up” and “throw them out” and “don’t be too nice” and all the rest of that thing. So, you have that personality disorder. And again, he likes the violence, but he’s a coward. He would never personally, actually, talks a big game, but he would never actually lead them in that march. That was never going to happen.

But as to the lead up to this, it is something that is absolutely astonishing to me as well as makes me nauseous. Is that the entire objection that is now being voiced by millions of Americans, by hundreds of members of the United States Congress, are all based on his disturbed personality? There’s never been any evidence or proof that there was any problem with this election. Not a single iota that’s mentioned. But Trump says that, they believe it; and that’s it. It is one of the things that as a secular humanist that bothers me so much about this. And there’s so many. But one of them is the idea that we should be living in some evidence free world where “I believe” and “I think” and “I feel,” “in my opinion,” substitutes for actually gathering evidence and presenting that evidence in a reasoned way. So, you had that Trump, remember this too; Trump has never lost at anything that he didn’t say was fixed against him. In 2016, the Iowa caucus was the first Republican primary. He lost to Ted Cruz. And immediately after, Ted Cruz ‘stole’ it. ‘You stole it from me.’ When? Before the election against Hillary Clinton in 2016, Trump said if it is rigged, it is rigged against me. He was hedging his bets so if he lost; he just said, ‘That’s why I lost.’ This is a sick man. You can’t just say, “I lost, it happens.”

And then, of course, even after the 2016 election, he was saying, “We lost the popular vote.” ‘The only reason I lost, the vote was rigged. And then before this election, same thing happened. The only way I can lose, if it is fixed and rigged against me. So, we’re talking about an evidence free person with a personality disorder, but his followers have become conditioned to living in an evidence free conspiracy theory world. And some people bought it. But that Trump has a damaged personality, I know. And he has followers. Yes, it is depressing.

But one of the worst is that; you have people in Congress saying, “Yes, I’m going to vote against certifying this election.” People like Josh Hawley and Ted Cruz and Kevin McCarthy: Don’t tell me that they don’t know that this was all a joke. It is the cynicism of voting to not certify this election. Because you think it can somehow benefit you down the road politically, or maybe, ‘Trump supporters will support me for president in 2024,’ when there’s no evidence supporting this, is detestable. Certainly, there’s a lot of talk now. What’s going to be done? I mean about the people who voted to contest the election without having any evidence or proof, etc. What is going to be done with these people? Remember this thing about counting the electoral votes on January 6th? I saw Senator Amy Klobuchar of Minnesota, who has been in the Senate for quite some time now. She was saying someone asked her in previous years, when you every four years we’ve experienced this, the counting of electoral votes. What was that like? And Klobuchar replied, ‘I don’t know. I don’t even remember.’ It took 20 minutes. It was nothing – it seems – at the ministerial level, clerical. It is counting the electoral votes, and just confirming nothing. It is supposed to happen here, but it didn’t. So, this is where we are in uncharted territory right now, and whether pieces should be going to be put back together again does remain to be seen.

Jacobsen: Do you think there’s going to be another violent act, large scale event, similar to what we saw on Capitol Hill, whether on Capitol Hill or off in another part of the country? Or do you think this will merely be a manner of online virulent conversation and ranting? So, more of an online thing rather than offline thing.

Engel: Boy, that’s right. I don’t know which is an easy answer, but I think part of me said that I’m just questioning myself. Because my initial reaction when you ask the question will be to say, “I don’t think this is going to happen again.” For a number of reasons, I think people are repulsed by this. I think there are some repercussions that are already happening. I think something like close to 100 people have already been arrested. Again, these geniuses not wearing masks. Not only are they spreading Covid, they’re also saying, “Hi, FBI, here I am, come and get me.” So, I’m hoping; that’s the hopeful part of me.

But then I look and say, “Man, I never would have guessed that this would happen in the first place. And then, every state is going to have a heightened security for the next couple of weeks around important state buildings, around all federal buildings, so you’d better be prepared. There was not an excuse for the lack of preparation on January 6th. There’s certainly no excuse for any lack of preparation over the next week or so. And it all culminates, of course, in the inauguration of Biden. And think about it, who’s going to be there? Because Pence saying he’s going to be there. Now, of course, Trump is not going to be there. He will be wobbling around the golf course somewhere, I assume. But you’re going to have Biden and Harris, the incoming president, the vice president. You’re going to have Pence. McConnell will be there. McCarthy will probably show his ugly face [Laughing], is going to be there. Chuck Schumer is going to be there. President Clinton is going to be there. President Bush is going to be there. President Obama is going to be there. I don’t know if President Carter is well enough to travel there, but, this is essentially like a real test of where we’re going forward and if this inauguration is going to go off the way it is supposed to. If I had to guess, I would say that it is because I think that the people who are organizing, and certainly those from the incoming Biden administration, know the importance of this. This isn’t just a regular inauguration. This is showing the world that we’re going to reckon with this and move forward as the United States of America, as a democracy, as a constitutional republic. That is so essential. And I think that people understand that. I’d have to think the Secret Service understands that. And so, they’re going to do what it takes to make sure that this goes off, and it goes off safely.

Because if it doesn’t. Boy, oh, boy, I don’t want to think about the ramifications of if it doesn’t, the future of this country. So, I’m going forward saying, “Yes, this is going to go off and it is going to happen and it is going to be what it should be.” I think that that’s going to be the case again, because the ramifications of not being the case are frightening to contemplate. And by the way, if for some reason these lunatics were able to – at noon on January 20^th – disrupt the inauguration, so that Biden couldn’t be inaugurated: Who is the president? Nancy Pelosi. It is a terrible thing, right? But that’s all it is, because Trump will not be president at noon on January 20th, no matter what happens. Pence will no longer be vice president. If he doesn’t inaugurate a new one, then you go down the chain and the third person in line for the presidency is the speaker of the House, Nancy Pelosi. I don’t think that’s what the Trump aides particularly want. But these people are not famous for their deep thinking. But I would say, “Yes, I think it is going to go on as it should.” And then hopefully, we will slowly but surely start to get our way back to some sanity.”

Jacobsen: John, thank you as always.

Engel: Ok, Scott, thank you much. And I’ll speak to you in a week and see what I’m saying then.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 30: Secular Humanism, Accountability, and the Scientific Method

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/07

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about the cusp between administrations.

*Interview conducted January 18, 2021.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Ok. Let’s consider this a cusp interview between one administration and another. What would you have to say about the country coming together in the midst of its massive levels of separation on pretty much every metric?

Jonathan Engel: Well, it’s interesting. There are a number of people who are pointing out that you can’t have unity without, first, accountability, and that’s important. But I also think as a humanist, and this is something that’s important to me. I also think that there has to be some concept of the common good. One of the things that I have seen that has been most distressing, again, is this whole idea that we’re all in this for ourselves, every person for themselves. And I understand that there’s sort of a cultural history of that in this country, in the United States, with the ironic concepts of rugged individualism, etc. But there are certain things that just require community involvement and require looking at the good of everybody. I am sure that there are other countries where wearing a mask to prevent the spread of Covid has been at times contentious.

But this country has been saying it’s been really contentious, etc. And why would that be? And it’s one of the things as a humanist that’s frustrating to me, which is: Listen, if I knew you can do a blood test to tell me tomorrow that I knew that I was immune to Covid, but that I could still pass it. I would like to think that I would still wear a mask, even though I couldn’t get it. But I would, “But I’m going to wear a mask because I have to protect the people around me.” And just too many Americans don’t think this way. By the way, here in New York City, which has done better with the virus, probably than many other places in the United States. When I go outside, I wear a mask and pretty much everybody’s wearing a mask. But there are lots of parts of this country where that’s not the case, where people say, “I don’t want to,” and that’s it.

And for those people in that situation, one of the things as a humanist that distresses me the most is that lack of the feeling of the common good. Lack of saying, “Well, I don’t want to wear a mask. I don’t really think I need it, but I don’t want to potentially hurt somebody else. Because we’re all in this together. I don’t want to hurt anyone. I just don’t want my actions to hurt anybody else,” as opposed to, “Well, I like my actions. I’m going to take them. And if they hurt you, too bad.” That is something I find very distressing. Again, as a humanist.

Jacobsen: What do you make of the amount of security, militarized security required for this upcoming inauguration? And what do you make of the effective seeing of this as a stolen election? Therefore, this inauguration is fundamentally ‘illegitimate.’ On the other hand, individuals who see this as a struggle since the November election coming to a head on January 20th with an inauguration that was punctuated on January 6th with what some have termed a “riot” or a “protest,” while others have deemed it an attempted “insurrection”, which, I may add, came with open prayers right in the center of the Capitol building.

Engel: I want to address these things. Yes, that was what we saw there, which was white Christian nationalism. That’s what we saw. A belief that the United States is for white Christian straight men and white Christian straight women who are willing to be subservient to those men. And so, we’ve been seeing a lot more video coming out of them, “We do this in the name of Jesus Christ,” and things like that. So, I think that’s an important element of it. In terms of militarization, it is distressing. Yet I am in favour of it. For one thing, I think it’s critically important that we have an inauguration, as usual, that goes safely and proceeds the way it has always proceeded on January 20th. And if it takes this many troops to make sure that everything goes peacefully and smoothly, then I think that that’s what we need to do.

It’s very distressing. I mean this is not a country that’s used to do that kind of thing. We’ve seen it in other countries, of course. But we’re not used to it. But I would say if that’s what it’s going to take, then we should go ahead and do it. Just a touch, on one more thing we talk about, one of the things that I see as a long-term problem in this country is science denial. And I see that in a couple of different ways. But you look at one of the things about science denialism is a denial of the hard science like climate change. But another thing that I think is even more insidious in some ways is the denial of the scientific method, which is to say you have a hypothesis, you gather evidence to test the hypothesis. You try to see if it’s right or wrong.

And so, when you’re talking about the election and all those people in this country who are still saying the election is stolen, it in some ways as a humanist; I see that as a denial of the scientific method because of their beliefs and accusations are evidence-free. So, if you believe in science, when someone says this election was stolen, you’re going to say, “Well, what evidence do you have of that? What proof do you have of that? Why should I believe that? Have you really tested it?” And of course, the answers you get are, “Well, that’s where I think,” “That’s what I believe.” And to paraphrase the late great writer Isaac Asimov, ‘Democracy doesn’t mean that your ignorance is as good as my knowledge.’ If you want me to believe that, then you have to come forward with proof.

Trump wants all sorts of lawsuits. 60 lawsuits he filed to overturn this. And they were all thrown out of court. Why they were thrown out of court? Not on procedural matters. [Ed. Engel is a professionally trained lawyer.] They were thrown out of court because the court said, “Well, if you want me to entertain this, you have to give me some reason to think that this might be true.” And they didn’t give anything because they didn’t have anything. So, if there’s no evidence for it, a secular humanist will say, “Well, then I don’t believe it.” But there are so many people in this country who deny the scientific method for many of them, for religious reasons. Not all, but many of them for religious reasons. And for them, if whatever it is someone tells them or they hear or whatever, then it is ‘as good as my knowledge.’

And truth be told, it really isn’t that I see this as a great challenge for this country or society going forward. The two ideas are key, one that I mentioned before, the need for the common good; and the other, the need for the scientific method and not believing things, because they support your underlying beliefs or they support your dogma or whatever. But believe in things because there’s evidence for that. And that’s what I believe. And if there’s no evidence for it, then I’m not going to believe it.

Jacobsen: John, thank you very much for your time.

Engel: It’s always a pleasure, Scott. Listen, you take care now.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 20: Education and Religiosity, LDS and Women, and Romney

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/06

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about college, the LDS, and Mitt Romney.

*Interview conducted October 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Now there is a myth, semi-myth, in the secular communities, the idea of entrance and completion of college-level education leading to fewer people identifying with a religious belief system. This isn’t entirely true. Individuals who go into college are more likely to both become atheist/agnostic and/or Protestant/Catholic. The main difference is that those who do not have college are more likely to be nothing in particular. Is there a phenomenon of more crystallization of the belief structures more than anything there?

Professor Ryan Burge: I think the things that are making people atheists, agnostics are not the college experienced. I think for a lot of these people who are already believing that way before they go to college and then they go to college. They find themselves because they break from the structures that they were raised in the church, their family and their community and their parents and all these things. So, I think that being more likely to go to college also means you’re more likely to be exploring your faith, exploring your values, exploring your sexuality, exploring your gender identity, exploring all of these things. So, I don’t think it is college necessarily. And by the way, I had other scholars, coming by that I published on this, and they showed the same thing, that it does not make people more religiously liberal or more likely to be unaffiliated. In fact, it is not the college. We’re starting to believe that it is not that going to college that causes people to become more liberal. It is because people are already liberal. They want to go to college.

So, it is something before all this. Some deep held belief or values that you have are more likely make people go to college, but also more likely to be politically liberal and more likely religiously unaffiliated. It is not that college accelerates any of that. If it does, it doesn’t do it by a lot. Instead, it just reinforces this journey that you’re already on by putting you in rooms with people who are diverse from you politically, religiously, racially, all of these things. I think that helps you on that journey. But you are going to get there anyway. They’re being turned into atheist long before they go to college and going to that philosophy class, gives them ammunition. But they already were trending that way anyway. You can’t blame college for any of that stuff.

Jacobsen: What is the gender gap among the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints members?

Burge: Yes, so, the gender gap is really important in this election because there’s been some polling that shows the gender gap is larger now than at any point in which we have polling data for, which means that, typically, women are more likely to vote for Democrats and men are more likely to vote for Republicans. But now, it is larger and larger. And I think data said the gender gap now is 20 points, which means that women are more likely to vote for Democrats and men for Republicans. But if you look at LDS, there’s this discussion of female LDS. What are they? Are they different than their male counterparts? And the reality is, it does look like there is a gender gap there that men are stronger for the president, President Trump, than are women. Female Mormons are about 10 or 15 points less supportive of President Trump. And if you believe the data for June, which is the latest data we have, only half of female Mormons said they were going to vote for Trump or approved of Donald Trump in June of 2020, which is bad.

You would expect it to be a lot higher from LDS, typically Republican, conservative. So, to see those declining numbers means that Trump is losing with LDS. And he’s also had a problem with LDS, by the way, only got 55% of the LDS vote in 2016, a lot of which has been polling to Hillary Clinton. But, 80% voted for Romney and only 55% voted for Trump in 2016. So, he’s got a weakness there and it can hurt in places like Arizona. So, he needs to do better, especially with Mormon women.

Jacobsen: During the impeachment process, Mitt Romney voted against him.

Burge: Yes, that is correct. Mitt Romney has been one of the few voices of judicial independence or partisan independence in American politics, which means that sometimes he went to a Black Lives Matter rally, which I thought was interesting. And when someone asked, a reporter asking, why he goes, because the “black lives matter.” And like – whoa, most Republicans wouldn’t even say that, let alone go to a rally. So, he is somewhat independent. But when it comes to the Supreme Court, he has decided he wants to go vote with their person for the Supreme Court. So, he’s not completely independent on the Republican Party, but he’s definitely bought the old style like maverick Republican that would break with party ranks on certain issues. But he’s still pretty far to the right on a lot of issues as well.

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2022-05-15

Interview with Dr. Michael Friedman on Hardcore Humanism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/05

Dr. Michael Friedman is a Co-Founder of Hardcore Humanism. Here we talk about his personal story, ideas, and development of Hardcore Humanism.

*Interview conducted June 6, 2020.*

Scott Jacobsen: So, what’s in the family’s personal story to set a ground framework for some of the discussion today?

Dr. Michael Friedman: Yes. So, I think that there are two strands of the story that are relevant to developing Hardcore Humanism as a concept. For me, one was as a trained clinical psychologist. I was struck by the times, frustrated by how almost every approach to understanding and treating people started with the same fundamental premise that: if you come into our office, there’s something wrong with you and we have to figure out what it is and we’re the only ones who can do it. So, maybe it was a psychodynamic approach and you have this deep, dark, unconscious conflict that happened, maybe, before you were in cognitive therapy where you have these cognitive distortions or irrational flaws that was a lot of a language. Or maybe, it is a behavioral approach where your reinforcement systems were done incorrectly or whatever it was.

It all was some fundamental way of saying that you’re crazy for lack of a better way of saying it, except for humanistic psychology. Humanistic psychology, a quarrel with this notion that people have fundamental value. The approach to treatment which depending on who you look to as the philosopher or therapist for unconditional, positive regard, which is acknowledging the working people and helping them actualize. They could become the person that they wanted to be. I think that one of the things that happened as I was training, humanistic psychology had fallen out of favour in terms of research and things like that, because they fundamentally disagreed with the concept of any scientific approach. They didn’t think it captured the human experience. So, they rejected that.

And so, I think that in terms of studies or grants, or anything like that. It didn’t lend itself to that world. So, it became marginalized as far as more of the more popular theories at the time, e.g., cognitive behavioural therapy and interpersonal therapy, which became more popular because they took an empirical approach. So, I was working with people. I started to notice that those models didn’t seem to work for me, personally. I didn’t like applying them. I didn’t like sitting, having someone lay down on a couch, and sitting behind them or being a blank slate, where I was only nodding and withholding any reaction, I didn’t enjoy pointing out their logical errors. It didn’t feel right to me.

And so, what I noticed, there was this rhythm that started to happen where it was basically, “How do I pull away the things that interfered with people’s development? How do I help them understand and find their purpose? And how to help them really work hard to get it?” Those seem to be like the three ingredients that needed to happen for somebody to get better. What happened on the separate side was that on a personal level, I started in my 30s. I started playing music for the first time. I never had done that before. I had always seen a band that was a cover band. I thought it was like the greatest thing in the world because I have never seen that. So, I said to my friend, “I want to sing a song in a bar band, like once. That’s like a goal of mine.”

So, I tried out before a band that was like an alternative rock band. I can’t sing. So, what happened, I went into the audition. I thought they are all going to be people like me who didn’t have experience. But they sounded like professional musicians. They asked me to jam with them and sing based on what they were doing. I was like, “I do not even know how to sing, like I can’t.” I thought I might be able to sing like a track with a couple of songs and then I will excuse myself. So, it was so upsetting. I was sitting there for like a half-hour. He didn’t say anything. The audition was only a half-hour, so I read it to the end. I got so upset that I started screaming into the microphone and then the audition was over.

And so the guy called me back, he said, “We’re going to do an alternative rock band. But I think with your voice, I was thinking, maybe, we could do more of a thrash or a hardcore band.” I remember saying to him, “This is awkward. I do not know what those words mean. I feel bad because I appreciate what you’re saying, but I do not know what you’re talking about.” So, eventually, I learned about the genre. I learned that my style was a little bit more appropriate for that. I’d never listened to that music growing up. But then we wound up playing together for about ten years in a band that was called out Zero, which was basically a local band. But we played together for about ten years and we did three records. We would like to play.

And we had these little moments, where we got to Boston; we went to Chicago. It changed my whole way of looking at things for a couple of reasons. One was that I hadn’t been so excited about something in a long time. I have always grown up loving music and listening to music over and over and over again. But I do not have any talent for it. So, the idea of playing music was not something that ever occurred to me. But all of a sudden my playing shows at these places that others have been playing at like Continental or going up to Boston and then playing with these bands that I had heard of before that were on the radio – opening for them. It was really special.

What I noticed happened when I did that, the world split into two parts. There were the people who were either super psyched for me or, at least, supportive, even if they didn’t get it or dig it. Then people who were like, “Huh?” I had people who I had been friends with for decades. It is like people who came and asked, “Are you that disturbed? I do not get what you’re doing.” I got all the screaming and the thrashing and the jumping around, and you’re on the floor and all this stuff. It was powerful for me because what I realized was that there was something happening in my life that was similar to what was happening with my patients, which was I had this thing in India. It was like a little bit different from how I came into the world. it was like I did grew up in the world with hardcore punk and thrash metal. I grew up in a world with I listen to rock and I listen to hip hop.

But it was much more mainstream to a certain degree. it was interesting how upsetting it was, like the way different people treated me. Those things and sifting through that and being like, “I want to play this music.” Then all the things that went into being an independent band, like writing songs, recording them, playing shows, and promoting, and contacting labels and contacting radio stations. It was an exhilarating experience. But I realized that I was starting to play out a lot of what I was doing clinically. I didn’t even realize I was doing that clinically. I didn’t know. When I started seeing at myself, I said, “Oh, maybe, that’s what I should do even more,” and fast forward a little bit, I’d always done more academic work.

And so, I do grants. I’d study depression, treatments for depression, and people with chronic disease, doing anything in the pop world was a, “No, you never do it. You do not write pop books. You write articles for science, peer-reviewed scientific articles.” When I got out of academics, which coincided with when I was playing music, I worked with this company that, basically, was a preventative health care company. They basically said, “Listen, it is our 100-year anniversary as a publicist, go out there and write as many articles as you can, put our name under it on topics having to do with health.” So, I did that for a while. Then I was writing an article on the LGBT community. What happened was the guy who produced our second album, the guy, Joey Z., from the band called Life of Agony, which was like a New York metal hardcore band.

Their singer was the first heavy metal transgender singer and had come out as transgender. So, instead of me talking about the LGBT community, I’d written a couple of articles on that topic. I was like, “Maybe, I should talk to her.” When I talked to her, and I got her perspective, I was like, “This is a lot more fun than what I was doing before.” So then, I started calling up anybody who I knew, who was a hero of mine. So, I would look up online. I’d be like, “Here’s Barry Beck,” who was a hockey hero. I grew up with Barry. I was a Rangers fan of Barry Beck, who was a famous Ranger hockey player; or Theo Fleury and others, then I would contact different musicians.

So all of a sudden, I started doing it a lot. Then I noticed that almost all of those people who were successful went through that same process. They had a point in their life where people thought they were weird people, thought they were different people, thought that their ideas were unconventional. They had that choice point, “Do I succumb to this pressure, or do I move forward?” And they would move forward and then they would figure out, “What is it that I want to do in my life? What’s my purpose?” And then they would work intensely for it. So, all of that came together. So, now, what was happening in my clinical world and my personal life and then in my writing was all lining up, that’s where we came up with the idea of Hardcore Humanism. Because there was originally this thing called Hardcore Punk, and there was Punk.

We’re going to be more intense. We’re going to be more revolutionary. We’re going to be more aggressive, more confrontational. So, “We’re not Pop. We’re Hardcore Pop.” So, the idea was like, “We’re not going to be humanists. We are going to be Hardcore Humanism.” So, old school Humanism, I think it did a great job in helping people feel like unconditional, positive regard and the freedom to go and do what they wanted. But I have learned a lot doing behavioural medicine where there’s a lot of stuff that you could do that still helps you along the way, which I do not think robs you of your sense of who you are as a human being.

And I think that from most of the things that I worked with, whether it was sleeping better, eating healthier, exercising, any of those things, it was a lot of work. So, we developed the Hardcore Humanism philosophy, which is, basically, three things. It was not so nuts, which is the idea that people might tell you you’re weird. You might think you’re weird. You might think you’re off crazy. You do not fit in. But our view is like, “No, that’s you. That’s your uniqueness. That’s something special about you. What is that purpose-driven health, which is the idea, you want to organize your life in the context of your purpose, which helps a lot. We can talk about that more later, which helps a lot in terms of how to move forward and understand the choices that you make.

And then what we call “heavy fundamentals,” which is most of the things that you have to do in life are simple, but difficult. There’s nothing that I’m going to be able to tell you about your relationship with your mother that’s going to change the fact that the donut is better than the carrot. like, it is nothing that we’re going to do in therapy that’s going to help that. It is hard, until it is not at some point. You getting healthy eventually feels better. But in the beginning, going to the gym hurts, stopping smoking hurts, giving up drinking hurts, finding yourself in unhealthy relationships hurts because they’re usually gratifying at the beginning.

There are all kinds of things like that. So, the idea is: How can you put those elements together? And that’s the same with Hardcore Humanism. So, what we have is this philosophy and treatment program, but then we’re also going to do weekly interviews with an artist. We’re going to talk about having a podcast. We’re going to have them write articles about them. We do a video about them, so we can learn their process and particularly those three concepts, because, again, they almost always go through that cadence. It is a bit of a long story, but there it is.

Jacobsen: How does pushing the boundaries of the inherent goodness of people in a therapeutic context bring about a wider range of possibilities in which people can actualize their goodness?

Friedman: I do not know why we do this to ourselves, because nobody likes it. It is like bullying or like talking about people behind their backs or gossip in general. Like, we do not like any of these things. Nobody likes to be made to feel weird. Nobody likes to be made to feel that they’re bad. But somehow, there’s this process that we go through, where we always seem to be looking for the way that other people are caught. There’s this lingo for it, like “off” or “odd.” What it does is interrupts that fundamental sense of music, as in, you do not write the songs. You discover the song. It is like people can’t discover their song because there are all of these barriers that are put up.

And so, if you see, it is not about the inherent goodness of people, but that’s a big part of it. It is celebrating the uniqueness of people. The idea that differences can be special, that opens up a whole new approach to life. So, for example, in my life, if I had listened to a lot of the people who were looking at me, “God, why are you like that?” There are all these people growing up who are called the “Wallers” in my high school. There are all these people who they dressed all in black, their earrings and their tattoos. They listen to the music that, at that point, I thought was weird. I stayed away from them for the most part. In doing so, I probably made them feel bad about who they were; I got that done to me later on.

And if I had listened to those people, I wouldn’t have discovered this world, where, now, it drives my wife crazy. If I see somebody who’s dressed all in black, or if I see somebody who’s wearing a metal shirt or a hardcore shirt, my wife says, “Do you want to go talk to them?” I’m like, “Yes, I do.” I would have lost this thing that was so important to me. I would have lost this culture that’s important to me. I would have lost this world that gets me excited. I would have felt much like a drone. I would have felt like the dead in The Walking Dead. I wouldn’t have even noticed. Because looking back, I think about all the weekends that I didn’t have as much to do. Because when I started playing music, I, all of a sudden, always had something to do.

Because you always could be working on starting. You could always be going and seeing shows. You could always be passing out flyers. You’d always be in a query. You could always be working. You could always hang out with your friends, too. But this was something that was abstract. So, I think that if you allow that for people; they can figure out what’s organically the best thing for them to actualize. Because you do not know what actualization looks like for an individual. You may think, “I think you should be a doctor,” “I think should be a lawyer,” “I think you should marry this person,” “I think you should play this music,” “I think you should follow this religion,” but you do not know necessarily that’s the right path for that person. So, I think that the idea for us is to create that space. We’re not coming in with “this is who you are.” We’re coming in and asking, “Who are you?” If you do not know yet, then we can figure out how to peel away some of the layers that have gotten in the way, so that you can figure that out.

Jacobsen: Who’ve been some important precursors to some of this philosophy?

Friedman: I think Carl Rogers was probably for me in terms of a psychological standpoint. Victor Frankl with a lot of it. We call it Hardcore Humanism, but I think it has a strong central element to it. Sometimes, I struggle with the distinction between meaning and purpose. For me, meaning is often, “Let me look around at what I’m doing and give it a name, or give it a reason.” A purpose is something that drives behaviour more. I do not know if that’s a relevant distinction. But those are probably two; Maslow’s hierarchy for sure. I think that there’s a lot of people who influenced me later, like Martin Seligman was my advisor as an undergraduate, who founded Positive Psychology.

It is different how we do things. I think the orientation towards striving rather than surviving. Kelly Brownell, who was my advisor in graduate school, a lot of the things that behavioural medicine and integrating different theories came from him. Also, Howard Leventhal, I think he was a colleague of mine when I was doing academics, who made me think a lot about the concept of purpose in people’s lives. Quite frankly, if I were saying it, I think my parents were influential in the sense that they, in retrospect, had some things. The hard-working part, I think in retrospect that came from them because I saw them.

Day-in and day-out, they were focused on what they wanted. They were focused. They came from Brooklyn and didn’t necessarily have a lot of money in their pocket. We moved to a suburb right outside of New York City. They were about work hard, “Let’s make money, let’s save money.” We had a lot, but that was part of the point, and “let’s get money so that the kids can go to college.” Those are things that, I think, in retrospect would have resonated with me because I saw how diligent they had to be over the years to make that dream come true. They were very, very, direct about they didn’t have to have that. They could have been like, “Listen, we got out of the suburbs. We got out of the city. You’re in the suburbs now. You’re on your own.”

Their dream might have been, “We want to relax now,” which is totally fine if that’s who you are. So, I think that those have been some of the different influences over the years. Actually, probably, one thing I should say. So, this is the story. My wife without realizing it. I think this was set in motion. Because when I was transitioning out of academic work, we had started dating. I was telling her. I’m trying to figure out, “What am I going to do professionally?” I eventually wanted to practice. But she had come to our first shows. I started dating her a week before our first show. So, she came to one of our second or third shows, I think.

She sat down and was like, “Okay, so, let’s read it all out. What are your options?” She was like, “You can go into another academic psychology job. You can go to a medical and academic medical center,” which is where I was originally doing research. “You could go into a private practice, or you can become a professional musician.” I was like, “I’m sorry. What was the last one? Why don’t I become a professional musician?” I’m like, “Why are you saying that?” She said, “No, I saw you perform. I think that if you put in the time and the effort, then you could do that.”

I was like, “Oh, man. She must love me to think that.” What she saw was worthy of that praise. So, what I find, here’s a person in whose mind, it was like, “Oh, I’m supporting you. I could imagine that.” Now, I do not think that was justified on her part. Probably, now, she’d look back and say, “I think I was wrong.” But the point for me, in my marriage, she’s left me to pursue a lot of different things. Quite frankly, I’m not sure that a lot of other spouses would put up with it. She let me pursue doing Brazilian jujitsu.

She let me pursue being in a band. She let me like pursue this thing called Hardcore Humanism. She’s open-minded to Hardcore Humanism. We’re doing together. We co-founded, which is part of the reason why. We co-founded it together because she got a lot of the content and also the business stuff, which is more of the practical merging. But I think that she had that philosophy in a way that was different for me. It was different for me from other people I have known in my life. So, yes, those are all my influences.

Jacobsen: And that’s interesting, too. Because one of the main tropes in North American culture is the band dream of a guy, which is the opposite of the way that she saw it for you. So, the dream of pursuing a band in our popular culture is seen as a highly negative and immature thing. Whereas in your own marriage, it was seen as something to grow and explore and, therefore, was supported in a proactive and constructive manner rather than the opposite.

Friedman: Yes. I think that what was interesting was that the hardcore punk community. One of the things that’s interesting now. We have rock stars who are 70 or 80, but those are people who have been rock stars forever. But what you had in that community, in the hardcore punk community and to a certain extent, the metal community, especially in New York City, there are so many people here who come to be creative, and so few people can make a living on it. So, it is not a hobby. It is not a job, but it is a passion. You take it seriously. You do serious things with it. Even though, it is not like a big moneymaker, which had come from Hardcore Punk. That was a world that I didn’t know about, that DIY – put on your own shows. So, I was getting that experience and philosophy and reading about that in books like American Hardcore – all of that stuff. Then, yes, you’re right. When I was talking to her about it, she could see. It wasn’t about, “You have to do this for three months. If you’re not making a million dollars and a young star…” It was, as you said, “This can be part of a subtle way.” We read in a fairly conventional way. We’re married. We have kids. We have a house. I have a practice,

But there’s this other piece, or pieces in a way. I still have a new band, which I’m working with now. As I said, I am training in different martial arts. I do this thing. It is like the fact that she has been known to accept that, and in many cases, directly support it. Yes, it would have been a horror. I wouldn’t even have known it, but it would have been a horrible life for me if I didn’t have a wife who did that. I do not know. Again, I wouldn’t even have known what was wrong because I wouldn’t have been able to explore that stuff.

Jacobsen: If I look at some of the history reflecting on it, of Humanism, a lot of it is quasi-liturgical, almost like someone’s in academia or reading a homily. It is dry and academic, in white collars, often. This Humanism, along with a few others that I could think of off the top, they’re more grounded. They’re more blue-collar. They require more, your body is involved in embodying that Humanism. A lot of the Humanism – that I have seen through – is bookish. It is of the head. So, it is a different flavour of Humanism that I think should get a lot more attention.

Friedman: I appreciate that. Yes, I do not think I ever explored other than reading that. That might be the parallel of what you’re saying, and why it didn’t resonate with me fully. Yes, I always felt as if I was reading it. As you said, it is academic. Also, it comes from me, personally. I do not particularly find happiness. I feel like there’s a lot of things in society that are about reducing anxiety and being happy. Those seem like the priorities. For me, I do not know. It never resonated with me. I remember seeing Billy Corgan from the Smashing Pumpkins, who were saying in an interview: It didn’t seem like you guys were having fun as a band.

He was always like, “The fun for us was making that album. The fun was playing a good show.” He was like, “A lot of other bands had a lot more fun than we did.” But, of course, they all sucked. I think that that was because I remember seeing sex, drugs, and rock & roll bands. I do not have anything against that. But that’s who you are, and that’s authentically who you are. But I remember, I do not know if you have ever seen Bruce Springsteen in concert. I have never been a huge Bruce Springsteen fan, but I saw him on the “Rising” tour about 20 years ago. He was probably like in his 40s, 50s. But he got on stage. He’s got millions of dollars. He has top records. He’s already in the Rock & Roll Hall of Fame.

And this guy was playing shows like he was 17. If he didn’t get it right, he was never going to get out of Jersey. So, when people would ask me in the future, “What music do you like?” I was like, “I like jazz music.” I like the music where the person understands the power of that moment. It is how important it is. For me, how important my rock stars have been for me, it wasn’t even one of them at that point, quite frankly. The shows were important for me, the pulsating energy. If you do not get down, and if you do not appreciate that, I do not know what you’re doing.

And it was interesting because I interviewed someone from The Lumineers, which I do not know how they are in Canada, but they’re a big band here. They’re on the radio. I do not know if he heard directly or there was a story where Bruce Springsteen would say to his band, “For every show, you didn’t earn this.” I was like, “Yes, this is not about reducing anxiety. It is not about happiness. It is about the power of purpose.” That’s about touching in. So, for me, getting back to your question, it is that heat.

It is like when you have therapies. It is clinically interesting. You want to go with the passion, and where the heat is. I feel like, “What’s the point of all this if that’s not where you’re at?” Look, another person’s passion may be being completely chill. But if that’s you, and if that’s your passion, that’s the thing that you crave, fantastic. If your vision is being on a beach, and sitting and, basically, doing nothing and watching the waves, then that is you. You feel like that’s fantastic. I love that. It is not for me. But I want it for what you’re saying about that heat, that intensity. I do not know for me is what makes it particularly human. To me, it’s what we’re here for. That’s the same thing, “What’s ultimately good in people? What’s special about people? What makes us human?” We have that capacity. So, to me, if it is not focusing on that, “What’s the point?”

Jacobsen: One band that stands out, in that regard, without any formal identification with that humanistic philosophy would be the Red Hot Chili Peppers. Their way of approaching, the way they play the music, what they sing about, and the way they seem much more in the heat, they seem much their authentic selves rather than some false self.

Friedman: Yes. It is always one of the things. When there’s someone who’s in a band that I find has that a lot of times, not all the times, but someone in the band or multiple people came out of that hardcore punk scene. We definitely did come out of that. He has that intensity when he plays. You can’t imagine him playing a show without sweating profusely. There’s no way. Usually, the Red Hot Chili Peppers with that funk, rock, and punk.

But I appreciate their more mellow side, because I think you’ve got another thing, as an example. I always found it odd, which is not particularly humanistic. When we have this abusive relationship with the rock stars, we want them to go out on limbs for us, so we want them to take all the risk. We want them to put in all the effort or whatever, when we find something that they do right, which is: We grab onto it. We freeze-dry it. We repeat it. What I do, I listen to the same songs over and over again. I love it.

And then if they go off, and if they do something that’s different, “What the hell? They do not care about their audience.” We didn’t understand. The way that we got that special thing was not because they dressed, basically, as if we’re walking in line. They were creative. They were going to love it. Sometimes, they find something, that formula, which they love. And it works. There are bands like Rage Against the Machine and Foo Fighters. So, I think it covers it a little bit with some of the stuff. But it is always striking to me how that chance will like “turn”. Where the media will turn on a band, that’s the reasons why I like doing interviews.

Because I want people to see the process. Why on earth would you want your musicians to walk in a straight line? Go to the factory and do the same thing every day, so, it has always been striking to me. If someone’s experimental, or if their heart changes, the Chili Peppers 30 years ago, may be different than the Chili Peppers now, what’s authentic to them now may be different. If people do not let them do that, or if they do not appreciate that, I feel like you lose all the richness of the artist. You lose all the lessons that you can learn about the artist. It can apply to your own life.

Jacobsen: Where can people learn more about Hardcore Humanism?

Friedman: I got a http://www.HardcoreHumanism.com. We’ve got all the stuff up there. The podcast and videos are not; we’re recording them right now, so they’re going to be live in about six weeks. But the articles that we’ve done in the past are different topics that we talked about. There’s a philosophy that people want to get in touch and they want to do coaching or therapy or whatever it is, depending on the situation. They can get in touch with us there, but it is pretty much all there.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts and conclusion based on the conversation today?

Friedman: No. Honestly, I appreciate you reaching out. It is always great. I always enjoy talking about the stuff. I love it when people share whatever it is that they’re doing with me. So, I would say that everybody is thinking about those three principles. If you’re sitting there, and if there are people calling you weird or calling you off, obviously, people are pointing out that there might be something that’s a little bit different if it is harmful. But a lot of times it is something that other people do not like. It is the type of music or the way you dress or the way that you approach religion or the way that you approach your work or what field you want to go into and think to yourself, “Watch out for that.” Listen, it is, “Is this helping me grow?”, or, “Is this harmful for me?” “Someone is helping me figure out who I am,” or, “Is this something imposing on me what I should be onto you.?”

And so, similarly, think, “Who am I, and what am I trying to do in this world?” Know that as you figure that out, you’re going to have to work hard for it – do not be concerned. If you come upon your purpose, you can’t find your dreams. It is not easy because everyone is in a league of their own. If it was easy, everybody would do it, but keep at it. Because, if who you are, and if what you’re trying to do, and if you’re working hard for it, you’re either winning or you’re learning. You’re getting closer, or you’re learning the ways that are not getting closer. Over time, it is difficult for that not to work.

Jacobsen: Sir, thanks so much.

Friedman: Ok, great. Thanks again.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 19: White Evangelical Christian Voting Bloc

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/04

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about white Evangelical Republicans as a voting bloc.

*Interview conducted October 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, some of the more recent research over the last two weeks. You notice that the largest religious voting bloc in the United States are the Evangelical white Republicans or white Evangelical Republicans. Why are they the largest voting bloc? Is it because they are larger demographically or is it because they simply vote more? They take the democratic process for themselves. More importantly, what’s the reason?

Professor Ryan Burge: There is a combination of things. The white Evangelicals are pretty large anyway. They are about 17% of the population. So, they’re already pretty large. But what makes them a large voting bloc is that 75% of them are Republicans. So, you take 17%, you get 75% to 17%. You get 13% of all Americans are white Evangelical Republicans, 13%. Which is the largest religious voting bloc, the next closest is nothing in particular Democrats, which are 9% of the population. But I don’t think you can count on nothing in particular, because they have low levels of education. They are low on the participation scale in terms of going to a board meeting, putting yard signs up, and doing all those things. They can’t bank on this doing a lot. You can bank on Evangelicals. So, there’s actually been data, recently; that says that even though they were becoming a smaller and smaller portion of the population, that they are still turning out at relatively high rates. And will continue to do that until they die off, which is probably in your next 20 years or so, they’re going to be in decline.

So, I talk about this all the time because I get so many people like me. All this talks about white Evangelical Republicans, because they’re the largest voting group in America., there’s no other group that’s the same size. For instance, 6% of Americans are white Catholic Republicans. That’s half the size of white Evangelical Republicans. So, we should talk about white Evangelicals twice as much. And even atheists, even Democratic atheists, are only four and a half percent of the population. So, really, that’s much smaller than your white Evangelical Republicans. So, there’s a reason why I talk about white Evangelicals all the time because they’re large and are super important to American politics. So, that’s the key to understand the Republican Party, too by the way, if that’s their base. Like that’s the biggest chunk of their voters are white Christians, especially white Evangelicals. And they got to play to that base, continue to play to that base as well as they can.

Jacobsen: Now, the only religious group with diversity in friends is Biden supporting white Evangelicals. Why?

Burge: Yes, so, that comes from a poll I didn’t have access to, but Pew Research Center asks an interesting question, which is, “What do you think your friends are? Are they a majority Republican, majority Democrat, mix, or whatever?” It was 81% of Nones have friends who are also for Biden. So, 81% of Nones have friends who are for Biden too. So, basically, you have no political diversity there. 87% of Nones who are going to vote for Trump, also say that their friends are going to vote for Trump too. So, even there, you don’t have diversity. Look at Evangelicals with a lot of diversity, the only religious group that has any diversity are white Evangelicals for Biden. And the reason that is, is because there’s not a lot of white Evangelicals for Biden. So, if you’re going to have friends who are white Evangelicals and you’re for Biden, you’re going to have to have friends who are more Trump and for Biden. If you have white Evangelicals for Trump, you can literally have 50 friends tomorrow that are all believing the same way you do religiously and politically.

So really, the only group that’s out of step with their partisanship are white Evangelicals who vote for Biden because it is so hard to find a white Evangelical that’s for Biden in America. You’re going to find more diversity of opinion in there, which shows you how religion sorts itself out, e.g., your Nones or your Democrats or your Christians or your Republicans. And those people hang out with people who are like them politically and religiously. And you don’t get a lot of diversity anymore in the pews or in friendships or even on social media. I think that’s part of why the polarization in America is so bad, is because people don’t hear the other side, the people they trust much. They only hear the same side echoed over and over and over again. So, I think that’s a bad sign for the future of American politics and religion. Is there an echo chamber for everybody now?

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 29: “If I prayed…”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/04

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about the Biden-Harris presidency.

*Interview conducted November 16, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, you had an election in the United States. So, basically, statistically, it is ultimately going to be a Biden presidency and Kamala Harris vice presidency. So, you talked to your mother. As the first question, what happened in the New York streets? What was her comparison for that uproar? How has that played over or played out over the last week?

Jonathan Engel: I’ll tell you, when the election was more or less called for Biden by my news services, etc. They call results that they get from each individual state that runs its own election. For days, there was nothing worth watching in the news, simply hoping we’d get a call and finally go forward from Saturday morning. And I was busy doing other things. And we started to hear it out on the street. From my apartment, on the 18th floor, I started to hear people cheering and honking and people ringing bells and things like that. And I’m like, “What’s that all about?” And then we said, “Maybe, they called it for Biden.” So, we turned on the TV and sure enough. I found out it had been a call for Biden.

And in cities all over the country, I know that from keeping the TV on, but also in New York City, which I knew from both had seen on TV and just walking around outside. There were these huge spontaneous, not demonstrations, but they were celebrations. People just so happy. I think it was a combination of things. People taking a lot of news stories in the United States over the past number of years about how much people call Trump supporters love, and they go to rallies and so on. But you haven’t seen quite as much as we saw happened in the news about the people that don’t like Trump, hate him. And that’s especially in New York City, we hate Trump. I think it is because we know him better than anybody else. He is from here. And we never liked this guy.

And so there was that fear about, “Oh my God, he might win again.” And it was such a big relief when it was actually called, “Okay, no, Biden’s going to win.” So, you had that. I think it was people also partially had just a beautiful day and people hadn’t been outside in so long. And, yes, when you saw the pictures, I saw myself. I went to Union Square in New York. That’s like a place where there’s a lot of history of protest. So, it is going to be something going on probably in the Square. But also, I saw pictures. I knew it was happening in Washington Square and in Times Square, too.

But, we hadn’t been outside and people did wear masks. Something, I have not stepped foot outside my apartment door since March without a mask on, even when I’m walking down the hallway. I’m just staying in the hallway in my building to go to the room where we could throw out the garbage. Even that I have not, I always put a mask on. As I said, I haven’t stepped outside the front door of my apartment since March without a mask on. And there were people. People who were celebrating, where only 90%, at least, had their masks on. So, that was a good thing. But everybody had been so caught up, being nervous about this election and terrified that if Trump won another term, it would be the end of our democracy. And I don’t think that’s hyperbole. I think that people felt this way. I felt this way. I thought it was potentially true. So, it was just this outpouring of emotion.

Now, my mother, you mentioned, my mother’s 96-years-old. She was born in 1924. She lives in a retirement home on Long Island, but she said as far as she could tell – and I asked her about it and she said – there has been nothing like this in the United States since the end of World War Two, especially the D Day. It was a little different, I think, because people were coming out because of the use of atomic weapons, which I think creeps people out. Even if they were glad the war is over, when the war ended in Europe a few months earlier in Europe with D-Day, people just ran out to the streets to celebrate. This iconic picture of this sailor kissing a woman in Times Square. Just because everybody was just celebrating the end of the war, also, there has not been anything like that spontaneous celebration, not just in New York, but all over the country since the D Day, since the war in Europe ended in 1945.

Jacobsen: Now, I heard some of the clips. You aren’t kidding. There is uproar and honking of horns throughout the day in New York on that day. Yes, that’s amazing. It was quite startling. How has the opposite side of the political aisle, the Republican aisle, in the United States reacted to the current well-substantiated projections of a Biden presidency and Kamala Harris vice presidency? The overwhelming projection or extrapolation from the current vote count.

Engel: How Trump has reacted not surprisingly, this is not a guy who would ever say he lost fairly. In fact, if you go back in history, not only has he never admitted that he lost anything fair and square, but he also tends to sow that idea before the thing actually happens. Remember, before the 2016 election, when most people thought he would lose, including probably him, he was complaining about the election being rigged against him, so that if he lost, he would have his, “Oh, I told you it was rigged against me. “And this year’s election was no different. And of course, Trump has refused to concede and refused to acknowledge defeat. And he’s got a bunch of lawyers who are making some money. Although, some of them have decided to get it. And we’re not doing this anymore. Drop them on the plane and drop his re-election campaign as claimed, but going into court and losing and losing and losing and losing, trying, you can’t just go into court and say, “There was a fraud.” You can see that on the news. You can see that on Twitter. But when you go to court, they want to have evidence. I have been on the wrong end of that judge’s time, where I really didn’t have much going on. The judges don’t like that. They don’t like you to come in and just make conclusory claims. To just say in a conclusory way, “It is this, your honour. And they did this so well.” Where’s the proof? Where’s the evidence? And so, that’s when the case from Trump, Trump supporters, have been largely following Trump’s lead, and grassroots supporters following Trump’s lead, and saying, “Oh, it must have been rigged, it must have been, etc.” Meanwhile, Trump’s own head – this is the head of cybersecurity at the Department of Homeland Security, said, “This is a most secure election the United States has ever had.”

But the interesting thing comes from Republican officeholders, the Republicans in the Senate and the House, not so much on a state level, but on a federal level – the members of Congress. They have largely said nothing. Out of four senators, Republican senators, out of whatever it is, the total number is right now 50 or something like that. And there are two reasons that are going to be runoffs. But of the 50 and several hundred in the House of Representatives, only four members of the Senate, have said, “Congratulations to Biden, and said, “Okay, Biden is going to be the next president.”

And this week, I was watching Meet the Press and Chuck Todd. The Sunday talk shows where usually members of Congress always want to get on there. It is great publicity. But he invited all 50 Republican members of the Senate to come on today to talk about the election and not one of them agreed to. And in fact, there was little Republican presence on the shows, on these shows, because they knew that if they went on the show, they had, basically, a choice of two things. They could either back up Trump and say, “Oh, it was rigged, was fraudulent,” etc., in which case they look ridiculous. And nobody likes that. Or they could say, “Trump lost,” in which case they’ll have the fury of Trump and his supporters again.

So basically, John Kennedy, President John Kennedy, once – not to be confused with the Republican senator from Louisiana, John Kennedy, but President John Kennedy – wrote a book called Profiles in Courage about times when people were put against their own interests, put themselves on the line to do what was right. And what we’re seeing here are profiles in cowardice of these people, it is funny because I see it routinely on television where we have a reporter. NBC or MSNBC will have a reporter outside Congress. They’re in a place where Republicans are going to lunch or something, and then ask them to comment, “Do you think Biden won?”, etc. They just all walk by without saying a word because they’re afraid to either tell the truth, which is Trump lost; in which case, they’ll be hurt politically. Or, they don’t want to look ridiculous by telling lies, by saying, “Yes, Trump won.” They don’t want to make them look ridiculous. So, they, basically, say nothing.

And that’s what we’re getting out of Republican elected officials. I saw Mitch McConnell the other day saying, “I don’t know. But I certainly know the president has the right to challenge this election in court,” which is not exactly true. As a lawyer, I can tell you that is not exactly true. Because anytime you go into court to start a lawsuit for the plaintiffs, the plaintiff’s lawyer has to certify that they have a belief that they have a legitimate claim. Yet, they’re getting all the cases thrown out of court. You can go into court. You can file a lawsuit and the judge looks at you, and says, “What’s your basis for your belief that this is a legitimate claim?” And right now, the lawyers who are going in there are basically saying the judge is giving him the old Ralph Kramden – because they don’t have any evidence. And at some point, judges will, I believe, start to sanction this, fine lawyers and will fine Trump’s election committee, which is bringing these cases. Because unlike what Mitch McConnell says, you can’t just walk into court and say, “This is a fraud, your honour. I want to stop this vote.” The judge will say, “Where’s the proof?” And if you don’t have any, you get thrown out of court. And again, you can get fined by the judge for bringing this claim.

So, that’s what we’re seeing right now. The followers are basically either bewildered, “I can’t believe he lost,” or believing that nonsense they were told that if he lost that must mean that there was some chicanery. But the Republicans, federal elected United States representatives in the Senate and in the House of Representatives, they’re basically just hiding in a hole because they’re, again, a profile in cowardice.

Jacobsen: So, what will happen on January 20^th? What will happen in the United States based on the premise of a transition of powers, peacefully?

Engel: I think basically what’s going to happen – I think most people think of this – is that Joe Biden will be inaugurated as the 46th President of the United States. I guess that’s what’s going to essentially happen. But the damage is still being done in terms of sowing discord, sowing disbelief in our electoral system. And also, a big problem that’s happening is that the transition is not happening in terms of Biden getting funds to help him get his transition up and running. Those funds are not flowing because the Trump administration refuses to provide them. And also, he’s supposed to be getting security briefings. He’s supposed to be getting what they call the President’s Daily Brief (PDB). He’s supposed to be getting that by now. But Trump is refusing to cooperate. We see video of the day after the 2016 election, Hillary Clinton conceded; she gave a speech in which she conceded and said, “Let’s all help President Trump to do the best he can, which is the type of thing that happens, supposed to happen, on a regular basis.”

When President Obama invited Trump into the White House, they started giving him security briefings, which, by the way, he didn’t read. He didn’t want to transition in 2016. If he had learned anything or knew anything, he just wanted to go out to more rallies to stroke his ego. But they were there, and they were awesome. Now, Biden is getting those reasons; and there are people, serious conservative Republicans in the intelligence establishment, like John Bolton who was for a while national security adviser under Trump, but who also is a long time, hawkish rightwing guy and Republican guy. And he’s out there saying Biden has to get these briefings. They can’t come in not knowing what’s going on. But this is exactly what is right now happening. But on January 20th, I can tell you; I think most people think that what’s going to happen on January 20th is that Joe Biden is going to be inaugurated as president. There’s a deadline that all states have to give their certified results to the American Electoral College. And then sometime in mid-December, the Electoral College certifies that the winner is Joe Biden. So, that’s the next step that’ll happen, which I do believe also will happen. And then on January 20th, simply, Biden will be inaugurated.

Now, I saw Michael Cohen. The famous Trump lawyer/fixer who has turned on Trump and served time in prison for committing crimes on behalf of Trump. He said what he thinks is going to happen. What he thinks is going to happen is that sometime around Christmas or New Year, Trump will go to a resort in Florida and just simply not come back. I hope that will be the case. And I see why he thinks so. But regardless, I do believe that on January 20th, Joe Biden will be inaugurated as the next president. He will be operating, stepping in, on a handicap, because unlike every other transition before this, in which the new incoming president was given briefings and knowledge and said about what’s happening, “Looks like he’s not going to be getting there.” But he will be inaugurated on January 20th. If I prayed, I would say, “I’ll pray.”

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you for your analysis as always.

Engel: Pleasure, Scott, as always, to think about that. Take care.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 28: American Democracy and Historical Cycles, and Breakthroughs

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/03

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about Election Day and American democracy.

*Interview conducted November 2, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This will be published after the election, so consider this something like an in-the-moment interview with a retrospective publication date. So, we are on the cusp of closing elections in the United States. It is an exciting time for some and a terrifying time for others. It is a time of potential celebration, depends on your political orientation and social views. In New York, in the secular community, how are the conversations happening around President Trump, around presidential candidate Joe Biden, and around the election at this time?

Jonathan Engel: In terms of the secular community, say yesterday, I had a meet-up with a bunch of secularists here in New York. And in fact, the week before, I had a Zoom meeting with a bunch of people from the secular network of New Jersey. And clearly, people who are secular tend to favour Joe Biden, even Joe Biden is religious himself. And Democrats pay lip service to a lot of religious malarkey, as I would say. By the same token, they are not the extreme religious fanatics, generally speaking, that you find on the right that you find among Republicans. And Trump, of course, has no religion whatsoever. But he said, there is religious right in this country who have supported him. So, he’ll give them anything he wants, including Justice Amy Coney Barrett on the Supreme Court, who is a real religious fanatic. You look at Trump, the Trump administration, serious religious fanatics, the attorney general, the vice president, the secretary of state. You’re not going to get anything like that under a Democratic presidency.

So I’m sure, almost all secularists that I know are supporting Biden. But as for our apprehensions, we have the same apprehensions that every other person who’s not on the Trump team has, as well as the Trump Kool-Aid has, in this country. If I could know that this was going to be your relatively free and fair election tomorrow and that every vote would be counted as in a normal election, I’d be feeling pretty confident right now that Biden would win. And I feel that way. But I just don’t know what you can call it – mischief, except mischief is what my five-year-old kids get into. I don’t know what criminality would be more like it that could happen with Trump. Again, there’s one thing about Trump. There is absolutely nothing you can say about him in which a rational reply would be, “Oh, no, he wouldn’t do that.” So, people here are apprehensive, even those who feel that Biden is going to win and then feel fairly confident about that, there’s still a lot of apprehension because of what Trump might do in order to win the election. Also, a lot of people are still traumatized from four years ago going into the elections thinking, “Wow, I’m going to watch it here, the first female president of the United States,” and wound up, shell shocked. So, that feeling doesn’t go away in four years. In fact, you get flashbacks of it because then you’re reminded of it. So, there is a lot of fear and apprehension in many ways here in the secular community.

We know that separation of church and state is in many ways on the line. Again, it is so ironic because it is unlike Trump himself, religious – he doesn’t care. I can’t imagine him worshipping God; he would think that God should be worshipping him. So, he doesn’t care. But he has thrown the keys to the kingdom, so to speak, to the religious fanatics in this country. And what they will do with it, if he gets four more years, then it is very frightening.

Jacobsen: Even though Joe Biden is a Catholic, what is the form of his Catholicism making secular people more comfortable with him than another candidate who would not have been Trump while still religious in a way less appealing to them? Because I’m aware that differences exist between, on the one hand, hierarchs and laity in the Roman Catholic Church, as well as between the laity in the Catholic Church; something like ordinary believers on the one hand, versus more hardcore adherence to the faith, on the other, which comes with different social and political consequences because the faith is so marginalized even in such a long and large history in the United States as a whole.

Engel: As a secularist myself, I feel fairly comfortable with Biden. My understanding is that he’s a pretty religious guy. Does he go to church every Sunday? I don’t know. Which is in a way reassuring, he’s not throwing that in anybody’s face or anything else like that. I go back to thinking about this country when Jon Kennedy was running for president in 1960. He became the first then, as far as I could think of, still the only, Catholic; the only non-Protestant to be president of the United States. When he was running, one of the things that was being used much against him at the time was, “Oh, he’s a Catholic. He’ll be a tool of the Pope.” There weren’t so many secularists worried about him being a tool of the pope, and turning this into a theocracy or something. It was more like Protestants who were anti-Catholic and anti-papacy at the time. And they were worried about it. It is interesting, just as a quick aside, because in modern America right now, extreme right-wing Catholics and extreme right ing Protestants make common cause for the most part. But that wasn’t so much the case back then. But in any event, Kennedy gave a famous speech in which he said, ‘I’m Catholic, but I’m not taking orders from the pope. I take orders from the American people.’ And he very much strongly affirmed the separation of church and state in that speech.

So as for Joe Biden, my understanding is he’s somewhat religious. But I also know that, for example, he favours legalized abortion rights. So, that is a big litmus test for a religious person, especially a Catholic; he is in favour of legalized abortion rights. And I don’t think he’s in favour of forcing religion on anybody. I think he understands the separation of church and state. It is interesting. I would have looked at any one of those debates if someone had asked the question about the separation of church and state, but they didn’t. And generally speaking, I’m more comfortable even with some of the more religious members of the Democratic Party. I think they understand that this is a wide-ranging party. Not only, but there are also a lot more non-Christians, either Catholics or Protestants, in the Democratic Party than in the Republican Party. The Democratic Party has Muslim members of Congress and many more Jewish members of the House and the Senate. There are a few Republicans in the House or the Senate who are not Protestant or Catholic. But as for Democrats, there are lots of them. So, it is a more diverse base of support. And I think Biden understands that.

There is a, for example, just giving people; there is a Freethought Caucus in the United States Congress, which has 13 members. All of them are Democrats. And only one of them, the guy who started it, Jared Huffman from California, is an outright non-theist. The rest of them, either they don’t talk about it or whatever, and I was pleased. A woman who I don’t always agree with, a Muslim woman who in Congress from Michigan, her name is Rashida Farid, she joined the Freethought Caucus, which I thought was fantastic. And she said, ‘Listen, I’m a Muslim. I’m still a practicing Muslim. But I believe in the separation of church and state. I believe in using science and research and evidence in order to for us to devise solutions to our challenges.’

So as long as a person believes that: separating church and state, belief in science, if they’re religious themselves, I can live with that. I’m going to have to live with that topic. I don’t have much choice. So, I don’t even know what religion Kamala Harris is. I know that her mother was Hindu and her father, I believe, was Protestant. He was from Jamaica. And I know she’s married to a Jewish man, so I don’t even know if she practices or what she practices. I don’t know. And to me, that’s a wonderful thing. I don’t want to know, that’s a your-own-time thing. When you’re in the government representing me, your religion, I don’t want to hear about.

Even though, yes, Joe Biden is a practicing Catholic, etc., but me, as a secular person, I am comfortable with him. I am comfortable with the Democratic Party. Yes, they could do better, but I’m fairly comfortable with them. But then you look at the other side, you realize there’s no choice at all. And again, the irony there is they are led by a totally non-religious person. But it doesn’t matter because, Trump, anybody who likes Trump, Trump will do anything for them. All they have to do is say nice things about him and that’s it, even during the Election in 2016. He was asked, ‘Why are you saying such amazing things about Putin? The guy’s a KGB thug, who’s a dictator. Why are you saying such nice things about him?’ And Trump’s reply, basically, ‘He says good things about me.’ So, that’s it. If Trump has the support of the extreme religious people in this country, which includes Jews too, he extreme religious Jews in New York City, then they tend to support Trump. So, Biden is a religious person. But I am comfortable with him being president, that he will observe and defend the separation of church and state.

Jacobsen: After the election, we have another issue. The issue being, or the deal is, a significant chunk of the American population 10 fingers, 10 toes supported policies, behaviours, and speeches of current President Donald Trump. Those often were against many of the standards, attitudes, and standards of evidence of the secular community – human rights activists, of humanists across the country. Yet this has been whipped up over four years. The kettle will not turn to ice right away. It is still at a boil. So, the question, after election, what now?

Engel: Boy, nervous about that. I was watching – I wish I could remember her name – a reporter. I think she’s with Showtime. Jon Heileman is the guy who produces it; he’s one of the reporters there. But in any event, she was talking to some guy who was in a militia in Georgia, a rightwing militia. And basically, what he said, he was expecting and prepared for violence no matter who wins, because he said: If Trump wins over the left – who are so violent, which they’re not, but they’ll probably start something. And if Biden wins, then it is illegitimate. Biden can’t win and this is what Trump has been telling these people and some of them believe him and that he cannot lose by any legitimate means. If he loses, it means it was stolen. And this guy, standing there with this assault rifle, because this is the glorious United States of America where everybody has an assault rifle, not me, by the way, but in New York City in that year. In lots of other places, they’re saying, “We’re ready to march.”

Now that we’ve got a lot of tough talk from guys like that, it was one of these guys at the end who said, ‘I was a free man yesterday. I’ll be a free man tomorrow.’ But when they actually come up against armed cops who are trained and who are serious, it does tend to peter out, but there is reason to be concerned about the immediate aftermath of there being violence. And then there’s the long-term answer of this, that we still haven’t confronted. Some people say, “Oh, the problem is Trump. And when he’s gone, we can go back to normal.” But I think a lot of people, including me, are apprehensive about that, because the problem isn’t just Trump. I’ll tell you one thing. I have been shocked. And again, there are so many things that have shocked, but not surprised, me about the last four years. And one of those things is that, right now, I am shocked that there has been not a single Republican leader who has stood up and said, “OK, look, folks, we’re going to have a free and fair election because that’s what we do here. And then the winner will be the winner. And that’ll be that.” They’re not saying this.

And so, the long-term prospects for this country are uncertain, even if Biden wins, because there are 40% of the people who have been drinking the Kool-Aid for the last four years. People who believe either he’s done a great job or that this is a hoax, not real. I honestly don’t know. But the fact that those people will still be here, even if the state of New York manages to put Trump into an orange jumpsuit, those people will still be here in this country. And that’s a long-term problem that I don’t know the solution to. And in some ways, I’m not even thinking about that much because I’m like, “Let’s get through the next couple of days, let’s get through it.” Because, Trump could just even some way legitimately win re-election, in which case, give me a bit of liberty under the doormat because I’m going to be sleeping in your bathroom pretty soon (in Canada).

Jacobsen: How are you feeling personally about it?

Engel: Nervous, I pay something for last time, because every day is felt like it has taken a year, to get to this point. It has been such a slow drag. I am nervous about it. On the one hand, it is easy to fall into, “Oh, that can’t happen here.” I’ll tell you a little story. I’m a big jazz fan. I have been going to concerts. I have had a subscription to the Jazz at Lincoln Center Orchestra for over 20 years. And right after the 2016 election, I was at one of the concerts. I was sitting next to a gentleman from Germany. We were chatting before the show and at intermission. And this is not that long, maybe a few months after the 2016 election. First of all, I was like apologizing, “I’m so sorry that we’re flipping this person on the world, including you.” And he said, “Oh, it’ll be OK. It is America. America always comes through, it’ll be OK.” And then he said, “Hey, listen, any country that could produce music like this, is always going to be OK. And I just said, “Thank you. I appreciate your good wishes.” But in my mind, I thought back to 1935 or so. It is like, “Hey, there are a lot of people in Germany,” but then we’re like, “OK, this is the land of Beethoven. We’re civilized people. We’re not going to fall into barbarity.” And to the best of my recollection, they did.

So, personally, I do feel nervous. I’m wondering, where the people are going to wind up taking a stand here. We’ll find out within the next couple of days, even wind up speaking to you next week from today. And there won’t be a world anymore, in which case, that’ll be that. I don’t think anything like that quite yet, but I do think so much is on the line. In 4 years, you can do a lot of damage, which he has. In four more years where he feels unrestrained, the damage would only multiply.

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you so much for your time today.

Engel: Thank you, Scott. Listen, you take care of yourself and hopefully we will right the world at least a little bit in the next couple of days. Take care, Scott.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 18: Electorate Political Party Space

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/02

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about Nones, politics, and electorate political space.

*Interview conducted on November 23, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In a previous session with a previous question, I remember or recall a review of atheists or the Nones in general having an increasing share of the voting base for Republicans and therefore, by implication, Trump, in the last two elections. However, in the 2020 election, compared to the 2016 election, there has been a decline for atheists, agnostics, and nothing in particular. So, the Nones in general, do you think that’s just a blip, a regression of that trend in terms of a reduction of those who support Republican Party policies and politicians? Or do you think that that is more of a trend? This is more a sign of a decline or long term erosion of support among the Nones for Republicans.

Professor Ryan Burge: I think that Trump was good at driving away that less than a million, like insanely good at it because of his pandering to Evangelicals and some of his policies were focused on shoring up the base of white Evangelicals, which he did. They got that. You got to think that white Evangelicals. So, he succeeded in that effort. But I do wonder if he gave away a lot of religious folks that he could have won, if he would have reached out in any way at all instead of pandering to the Christian Nationalists. So, I did a presentation for the American Atheists organization where I, basically, walked everyone through the data they have for 2020, so far. And it does look like that the Nones abandoned Trump even more, this time. Atheists were 15% for 2016, then it was 10%. Agnostics are right about the same. In particular, an even bigger number, 6% or 7% of adults together, you get about 2% of the vote that switched from Trump in 2016 to Biden in 2020. That, by itself, is enough to get the win for Joe Biden in 2020. But I think you make a good point. I think this election would be what we talked about. It is a sorting election, clean the electorate and in a severe way. I don’t know. Other Republicans are going to be less controversial than Donald Trump. I do wonder if those Republicans can get back to 15%. Then it becomes a lot more competitive for Republicans, which is Trump was unable to play the base in 2020. And that’s, I think, one of the reasons he lost what he was able to make become any bigger than everybody got in 2016, again. And he just wasn’t able to do that. So, that’s enough for him to lose.

Jacobsen: Democrats, the white Evangelicals are not budging aggregately. Republicans have this in their favour. Why is this so? And what is an extended commentary for Democrats? What is an extended commentary for Republicans?

Burge: Yes, so, for years, like clockwork, there is this thing, which is an industrial complex that the Democrats are going to win back some white Evangelicals. They’re going to raise a bunch of money and put up these organizations and try to win over enough white Evangelicals to show, “Oh, we can win back the religious vote every year or every presidential election cycle.” It is the same thing: white Evangelicals, 78% of Republicans. That goes back to John McCain four years ago. There’s no reason to believe the white Evangelicals are going to move. They are committed to Republicans as black pastors are to Democrats. There is no switching there. There’s no movement there. There’s no daylight there. So, all these things that the Democrats have been trying to do to win over these white Evangelicals has, basically, been a waste of time and resources. At the same time, though, I would argue that one of Trump’s major flaws was he pandered to white Evangelicals the whole time. Which was why Evangelicals vote 78%, whether moving the capital to Jerusalem or whatever else he did because they love Donald Trump, so, I think for Trump, the Democrats should focus their attention somewhere else. The Republicans should also focus their attention somewhere else to try to win groups like white Catholics and Hispanic Catholics and Evangelicals, other groups that actually can swing and they’ve shown a propensity to swing a little bit from election to election and that’s where the election is decided. Not the blocs, the concrete blocks on both sides, it is the middle of the electorate where all this stuff work outs. It seems like, especially most Republicans, that they ignored that fact this time. And just luckily for Joe Biden, he was likable enough to win them over at this time.

Jacobsen: How do people view the electorate in a political party space?

Burge: So, it is fascinating, I think, where you get to see how people view the electorate. They like how they view the anchors in political space. And what I think is fascinating are atheists, atheists from 2012 to 2016 for themselves are in lockstep with the Democratic Party. They place themselves right in the same spot, which they place the Democrats. But for 2016, obviously, before the interesting happened, atheists saw themselves drifting further and further to the left of the ideological spectrum, but then they saw the Democratic Party basically moving further and further to the right of the ideological spectrum. And now atheists see themselves as being more liberal than the Democrats, which is the only religious group in America today to see themselves as being more liberal than the Democrats. And there’s not a single religious organization that sees himself as being more conservative than the Republicans. So, atheists see themselves as a way out for the left. Even past the Democratic Party now, which I think tells you a lot about how the Democrat Party is becoming moderate when everyone else is becoming more liberal.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 27: “Superstition ain’t the way”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/02

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about the superstition, Covid, and the American problems when they come together at the same time.

*Interview conducted October 12, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, I want to frame this particular session around paranormal beliefs. There are the supernatural beliefs, paranormal beliefs. Maybe, they can be categorized largely as extra-normal beliefs or some larger set of nonsense beliefs and non-empirical beliefs, generally. So, in a 2017 survey by Chapman University in Orange, California, they looked at seven, at least, paranormal beliefs. I want to list those quickly to frame this conversation today. 55% of Americans believe ancient advanced civilizations such as Atlantis once existed. 52% believe places can be haunted by spirits. 35% believe aliens have visited Earth in our ancient past. 26% believe aliens have come to Earth in modern times. 25% believe some people can move objects with their minds. 19% believe fortune tellers and psychics can foresee the future. 16% believe Bigfoot is a real creature. The punchline to all of this, 5% of Americans hold all seven of those beliefs and only 25.3% hold none of those. Again, this is from Chapman University in 2017 on paranormal beliefs. So, let’s talk about untouchability as one of the reasons for the prevalence or the ubiquity of these beliefs, why, and also how, does this tie into a New York Times article that you read?

Jonathan Engel: It is clear. That’s frightening to think that that many people believe these things. Although, I would say that one of the things that’s interesting is that a lot of everyday Americans would look at something like that, at least the ones who don’t believe those kinds of things. And I know it is only 25% who don’t believe any of them, but many of that 25% would look at those things and say – and laugh and chuckle, “Oh, boy, I can’t believe the things people believe. But how different is any of that then to believing in literal religious beliefs, mainline religious beliefs.” But taking them literally, as fundamentalist Christians do, as ultra-Orthodox Jews do, it is not that there’s no difference, but simply believing in something for which there was no evidence and that absolutely defies the laws of nature. And recently, we’ve seen the harm that can be done. I’m thinking about the situation with Covid in this country. And it is pretty clear by now that the United States has had the worst response and continues to have the worst response to Covid of any Western nation. And there’s any number of reasons for this.

But I think one of the reasons that people are afraid to say it, hesitant to say it, is because religion is so sacrosanct in this country, by which I mean fundamentalist religious beliefs. And we’re seeing that just this past Saturday, there have been several articles in The New York Times and there have been articles going for the last few days about an outbreak of Covid in Orthodox Jewish areas. Both in Brooklyn and in New York City and in some small communities that are just a little bit north of New York City. And in response to those outbreaks, Governor Cuomo, for the state, and Mayor de Blasio, for New York City, have imposed some new restrictions. Like many places, when you get an outbreak, there are restrictions, then we slowly come out of those restrictions. But then when you get an outbreak, you have to re-impose them. So, almost reimposing restrictions on areas, many of which are home to large ultra-Orthodox Jewish communities. They have gone crazy. They sued Cuomo. They’re yelling, “It is anti-Semitism.” And believe me, I’m sensitive to anti-Semitism [Ed. Engel is Jewish.], but I know it when I see it. And this isn’t it.

Anti-Semitism certainly exists. It is a terrible problem still in this world and this country and this city. But like I said, I know when I see it and this isn’t it. They’re not being targeted because they’re Jewish, no matter how much they want to say they are. They are being targeted because they’re not following the basic guidelines and, therefore, they’re having an outbreak. And that outbreak affects, endangers, everybody, everybody in the USA, every single person. My wife, kids, and I, my 96-year-old mother and everybody in New York City. Everybody in the state is endangered when people don’t follow these rules. And the thing that’s interesting is, I find, mainstream news sources like The Times don’t want to come right out and say this. They’re saying, “We need to follow the science. We need to follow the science,” but they don’t take it to the next step and say, “Why aren’t some people following the science?” And the answer is: Some people don’t believe in it. People believe that there’s this sky deity that protects them, which will protect them from Covid or doesn’t reward them. For being, I don’t know, selfish assholes. They were down here on Earth in the next life.

We’ve seen these super spreader events. In fact, one of the first outbreaks in the United States, in North America, was around the Orthodox community just a little bit north of New York. And of course, we’ve seen many fundamentalist preachers saying, “We will not shut down our churches. We will have our church meetings,” etc. In defiance not only of laws and of regulations put out by their governors, but in defiance of any common sense, and clearly, in my view, I have seen that fundamentalist religion is contrary to science. And I don’t understand that there are people who are going to church or synagogue or mosque, but they still believe in science. They compartmentalize. That’s fine for them. It is absolutely their way. When it comes to fundamentalist religion, it is simply not compatible with science. So, the response in some of these communities has been anti-science. I think it is one of the things that has caused us to have this response to Covid that has been the worst in the Western world.

Jacobsen: Now, is it Tom Friedman?

Engel: Yes.

Jacobsen: Yes. He’s the writer for The New York Times. And if he’s writing some articles and he can’t even touch his ‘sacrosanct’ beliefs in the United States, in The New York Times of all publications, where does this leave even mainstream discussion on religious issues? If you can’t openly, even gently, critique some of the fundamentalist religious ideas pervasive in the United States, especially based on the Chapman University survey, why aren’t even fringe paranormal beliefs able to be critiqued? This, by implication, only leaves neutral or positive commentary on fundamentalist religious beliefs or personal beliefs? I think that’s a natural implication of that conclusion of those two premises in the argument. If you have a pervasive set of fundamentalist religious beliefs and personal religious beliefs in the United States, and if you can’t speak opposingly to them in public fora, then you can only speak neutrally or positively about them. So, this becomes a self-reinforcing cycle, which is a problem. It emboldens an anti-intellectualism in a negatively ignorant culture.

Engel: Yes, I think that that’s absolutely true. And it is a big problem. Talking about Tom Friedman, who, by the way, is a smart guy, it is not like I don’t think he knows. Last Wednesday, they are talking about Covid. So, it is like speaking of “Mother Nature.” So, it is one of the things for the questions you have. The answer is: It is your adaptive response to the virus. Grounded in chemistry, biology and physics, because that is all I am, if it is grounded instead in politics, ideology, markets and an election calendar, you will fail and your community will equally pay. Now, what’s interesting, in his response, you’re going to have to pay a price for your response to Covid if it is grounded in politics or ideology or markets or an election calendar, but he doesn’t mention religion.

And I think he knows that if your Covid response is grounded in – I think it is like Stevie Wonder – profound superstition, if you believe in things you don’t understand, you’re going to suffer. This is the same thing with this country again. It is religious beliefs that are so sacrosanct that they wouldn’t touch them. Now, listen, if you want to believe certain aspects of nonsense things, and if they don’t hurt anybody else, then go right ahead. I’m a big believer in the First Amendment, but like all the rights that are enumerated in the Constitution.

It is not absolute freedom of religion. Freedom to practice is not absolute free exercise of religion and not an absolute. Things can go right to swinging your fist at my nose, when you start hurting people. And this whole thing is the perfect proving grounds for that because nobody gets Covid in isolation. You have Covid. You have the disease. You are a danger to everybody else. And there’s the danger. Everything comes close to them. I actually see these Trump rallies with thousands of lunatics without masks, which I think, by the way, we’re going to get another glimpse of today. It is one thing to say, “What? They want to go there and endanger their lives. Go right ahead.” The problem is that the same guy who goes to a Trump rally on the way home when he stops at the 7-Eleven to buy himself a soda. He’s endangering the folks and anybody else within that 7-Eleven. So, this is not the type of thing that’s restricted to you. So, your religious beliefs. You can go ahead and have all in your life.

If you want to think that God will protect you from Covid, you can go ahead and take the job of protecting people. But if you don’t wear a mask, you’re endangering me. And I don’t think God will protect me from Covid. So, you have your right to your religious beliefs, but you don’t have the right to put me into danger. And you’re putting me in danger. You can’t, or at least you shouldn’t, be able to hide behind, “This is my religious belief,” in order to just go ahead to leave dangerous practices that endanger me. But again, we talk about the importance of following the science. You see so many people talk about following the science, but in this country, only few of them. I’m talking to people that you see on TV, the politicians and pundits or whatever, few of them are willing publicly to make that connection that we have to follow the science. And if you’re not following the science, whether it is because you think Trump is Superman, or whether it is because you think your religion is going to stamp out Covid. You’re not following the science. That’s a danger. But they won’t be connected to the religion. And I think that, in and of itself, is a real danger and a real problem.

Jacobsen: There is some research by people who are serious and sober into the subject matter of critical thinking and working to combat these beliefs openly in public. Apparently, a more aggressive and assertive and firm approach to individuals who harbor these beliefs does the opposite. They go home. They simmer, maybe. They become more entrenched in non-reality-based beliefs. If not the overarching non-reality-based belief structures, in fact, if they become more entrenched in individual beliefs, they become more entrenched in the overarching structure that holds the individual beliefs. So, the gentle, slow approach is the most effective. However, it is difficult to maintain when there’s so much nonsense around in the United States. What is it you find that works?

Engel: Yes, I hear you. And I believe in research and evidence. And if that’s what the research evidence shows, and I can make some common sense, then I think that’s the way we have to go; it brings up two problems. One is what is just in my head. My head may want to explode. I want to scream at these people, but I won’t outside of our conversation, because I understand what you’re saying. But the problem with Covid is that that’s a slow process and Covid kills people quickly. So, yes, and listen, I give a lot of props, because they are taking a firm stand now with the ultra-Orthodox Jews. The fact that they are taking a firm stand now. And that’s not going to help them politically. I understand what you’re saying, but the problem that they are facing again is the immediacy of this. And I can see we are taking the gentle, slower approach just saying, “Hey, let’s talk about what you think.” The idea is to get people thinking. You can’t yell at people, “You have to change. You’re an idiot. You can’t do that,” but I can understand that. But they don’t effectuate change. But again, the difficulty that we’re seeing here is that that’s a wonderful long term project, but Covid is with us in the short term and it kills quickly. So, whereas I see the point that we are trying to change the minds of people who are in fundamentalist religion, it is going to be a slow and gentle process and one that has the best chance of working. I also say that right now; someone like Governor Cuomo doesn’t have the luxury of doing this slow process directly, not necessarily in terms of beliefs, but in terms of practices he had to confront this directly and quickly. He had no choice; because, otherwise, we could be back in a second wave seeing thousands of people dying again.

Jacobsen: Jon, as always, thanks so much for your time.

Engel: My pleasure, Scott.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 17: Interethnic Marriage, Racism, Exit Polls, and QAnon

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/01

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about interracial marriage, religion, vote switching, exit polls, and conspiracy theories.

*Interview conducted on November 23, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Now, on the subject matter of interracial marriage or interethnic marriage, white Evangelicals and Muslims and to some extent Jewish people agree with the statement, ‘I prefer that my closer relatives and my spouses are from the same race.’ Atheists are down at 6%, nothing in particular at 7.5%. So, it’s a pretty big chasm in terms of attaching one’s religious identity to an ethnic identity to some degree.

Professor Ryan Burge: Yes, that’s a good question. So, I think atheists are just more pluralist overall, but I also think it is a matter of scarcity, too. When you consider the fact that 6% of Americans are Atheist, 6% of Americans are Agnostic, they’re a small group anyway, bring race and the picture becomes even smaller. So, let’s say you are a black atheist, or a Hispanic atheist, if you want to marry a spouse from another race, you also probably want your religion to match; your partisanship to match. There’s other data out there that people are becoming less and less willing for their kids to marry someone from a different political party. And we know how well that leads to religion, with partisanship. So, we put all those three things together with people. What happened is they want their family unit to be cohesive politically, so, what you just want to do: You want to marry someone who’s got the same race and the same affiliation to the party. I think race is tied up with partisanship, too. So, we talk about atheists, agnostics. We know they’re much more pluralistic when it comes to things like multiculturalism, multiracialism, also different places are much more urban. There’s a much higher likelihood they could find someone of another race in America.

It is like white Evangelicals. A lot of them are from rural areas or suburban areas, where it is predominantly white. So, it is easier to marry someone who’s white. I do think it is obvious there’s a racial component of this – straight up racism. That’s why you don’t want to fix the racism issues and things like that. But I also think, and this is an important part, this is tied up with age, too, because we know that atheists are younger. Average atheist Americans are only 41-years-old. The average mainline Protestants, 58-years-old. So, when you bring it into the equation, you see that younger generations are much more multiracial, much more open to other races. Older people aren’t. So, it is combining a bunch of stuff together on this question. I think it bears in an interesting way.

Jacobsen: Now, a white Evangelical is twice as likely to switch their vote from Clinton to Trump rather than Trump to Biden. What’s going on, man?

Burge: I like where we are going there right now. Look, the exit polls are still trying to figure out what the heck happened with the white Evangelical vote. I am convinced that religious sorting, religious/political sorting, has hit its absolute peak in the 2020 election. What you’re seeing is, people who have aligned with their political ambitions as much with their religious ambitions as humanly possible now. And what we’re seeing more and more, I think, people don’t want to live lives of incongruence. They want everything in their life to match up to this scheme. To religion, politics, race, even things like suburban, urban, rural, that geography is part of it, too. So, they’re just realigning themselves in a specific way to match up with this consistency. So, politics is another one of those things where we’re seeing sorting. I don’t know if we can get any further sorting. It seems like, there’s not much left to sort now. When you see a group like 80%, 20%, that’s almost as much sorting as you could possibly see in nature. So, I think we’re seeing more and more of that with Trump. Trump is one of those polarizing figures. I can’t imagine a more polarizing figure in American politics in my lifetime than Donald Trump. So, either you love him or you hate him, I think he’s actually accelerated things quite a bit by making it so hard to like him. You can’t just be on the fence about Donald Trump. You love him or hate him. There’s no in-between. I think he accelerated the sorting too.

Jacobsen: So, why don’t you trust exit polls on religions? All races, Trump 68%. The AP vote cast all races, Trump 46%. NBC white only, Trump 66%. However, Trump doing worse in rustbelt states with a ton of Catholics. What’s going on?

Burge: Yes, I think exit poll numbers are going to be right now probably all over the place on the stuff. Exit polls are bad. They can be good because the way they work is they just grab people as they exit the polls and say, “Here you get the short survey talking about who you voted for.” It is a basic demographic survey and then they go either way. The problem is that they pull people from the line in inconsistent ways, in ways that are not truly relevant, because we know that there’s no response bias from certain groups of people who are low income and to not answer because they have to go back to work. We know that women are more social than men. So, when you did get exit polls, you’re already getting a biased sample. So, it has never been that good anyway. But now, over half the vote in 2020 did not exit the poll because they never went to the polls, they voted by mail. So, you’re getting a bad version of a half a sample, which we know that the sample of the exit polls was biased towards Trump because when the mail is available; it was overwhelmingly blue, but the walking vote was overwhelmingly red. So, from that, you can’t get a full sense of what actually happened until we get with the voter verified data, which has come out for months and months and months. Like I have been telling people, I didn’t know the real story of 2020 until probably March or April. So, it is still early.

But the problem is, is your people that the media has report, they haven’t told these stories about religion. So, it is bad. People are using these stories from exit polling and don’t know what the real story is yet. I have not got my hands on the data, yet. So, I don’t trust exit polls. They are bad and they have never been worse.

Jacobsen: For those who like theodicy, who have a deep need for closure in terms of explanations, they are going to look at teleology in the world. They’re going to look at some purpose in the world. It is going to be some battle between good and evil. It is an American general view, but many people’s ideas about phenomena in their view of the world, too, of a cosmic battle between good and evil. This has various effects. So, with regards to QAnon, which I note is this highly American phenomenon, though spreading. As a conspiracy theory, it has twice as much support, roughly, amongst Evangelicals compared to the Nones, in particular Atheists and Agnostics. Why is that true? Why is that particularly acute among them?

Burge: That’s actually interesting, like the theory for that myself. If you talk to people about religion and you, you get to a completely different takes on it. There’s a whole group of people that think that Q is what happens when we don’t have religion, that people go out in search of something to fill that void and things like QAnon are ways to fill that void. Now, there’s another way of thinking, “No, no, no, listen. Q Works amongst religious people because Q is reliant on some pretty magical, fantastical, miraculous thinking, which is what Evangelicals are prone to do, because frankly they do that when it comes to Jesus in the Bible and things like that.” So, those theories seem plausible and, in a lot of ways, is a replacement for religion or is make religious people more susceptible to it.

So, we did a survey. We actually found that Evangelicals are twice, nearly twice as likely to believe a Q as religiously unaffiliated people, but just think about Q and this creates difficulties. Is Q only a phenomenon on the right, not of a non-partisan conspiracy theory? It is definitely a right wing conspiracy theory. Atheists, agnostics are typically much more left leaning and Evangelicals much more right leaning. So, hard to pick apart, how much of that has to do with their political partisanship versus conspiratorial thinking in general? So, that’s something we’re certainly working on with a paper about in the future – how those pieces are apart and figure out what’s politics doing in the work or if it’s religion or lack thereof doing the work. But no one’s done work on QAnon, yet. We wanted to be one of the first. So, that was our effort to be one of the first.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 16: Family Separation, “Protestant,” and Secularization

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/29

Professor Ryan Burge‘s website states: “I am an Assistant Professor of Political Science as well as the Graduate Coordinator at Eastern Illinois University. I teach in a variety of areas, including American institutions, political behavior, and research methods. My research focuses largely on the intersection between religiosity and political behavior (especially in the American context). Previously, I have completed an appointment as a post doctoral research fellow at the Paul Simon Public Policy Institute in Carbondale, Illinois. While there I was an adviser on issues of survey methodology and polling, as well as providing data collection and analysis.

In addition, my research has been covered in a variety of media outlets including The New York Times, The Washington Post, CNN, NBC, Vox, 538, BuzzFeed News, Al-Jazeera, Christianity Today, Religion News Service, The Daily Mail, Deseret News, World Magazine, Relevant, and C-SPAN. I am the co-founder and frequent contributor to Religion in Public, a forum for scholars of religion and politics to make their work accessible to a more general audience.

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about “Protestant” as a term, family separation, and secularization.

*Interview conducted on November 23, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: To begin, how unaware are young people of this term, “Protestant”? What is implied in that term first? And why are young people not aware of it as much?

Professor Ryan Burge: “Protestant,” it’s a funny word because it’s a word that if you are a researcher of religion, everyone understands what it means. But if you’re a lay person, you’re an average human being, American bopping around population; you don’t really understand what the word means. You might have heard it a few times, but it’s a term that most people haven’t. Christians in America are Protestant because they’re Episcopalian, Lutherans, Methodists, or Baptists or whatever. They’re not Catholic. If you’re Christian and not Catholic, then you’re by definition a Protestant, including non-denominational people. And that’s the thing with a lot of Christianity now, which has moved away from labels and even the denominational labels. Things like Baptists, let alone terms like “Protestants.” The survey that I have access to asks the question, “What is your present religion, e.g., Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, Orthodox…?” It has an option that says, “Christian other than above.” And what’s really interesting, is lots and lots of young people pick that option. A quarter of people aged 18 to 25 say they’re “Christian other than above.” Less than 7% say, “Protestant,” which really means that 30% are Protestant, but only seven percent know they’re Protestant, which means that almost three quarters of Protestant young people don’t know they’re Protestant. Which makes it incredibly difficult for us to classify people religiously, if you don’t even know what the heck you are, it adds a wrinkle to like religious measurement in America or across the world. How can we hit a moving target when I don’t understand the target?

Jacobsen: Why does no one support family separation? Why is family integration and maintenance incredibly popular?

Burge: I think American civic religion, which is beyond and above religion, puts a lot of emphasis on family as an important part of American life. Even monotheist, even your humanists, or secularists, these kind of people still put a great deal of emphasis on having a strong family structure. And they think that Americans especially put a lot of emphasis on protecting children and keeping children in a safe, warm, loving environment as much as they can. Definitely separation cuts to the heart of all that stuff because it takes children away from their parents. And I think most of us, when it comes to immigration, understand that it’s a crime, but only in a way that the crime of people trying to make a better life for themselves. So pulling kids away from their parents, for that crime specifically, just seems like a tremendous, tremendous amount of overreach and a lot of variability over you. If you could commit a crime to go to prison, you’re away from your family. But I think most Americans understand there’s a tremendous difference between, rape or murder or robbery than it is with jumping across the border to try to go work and trying to make a better life for your family. So I think it’s a punishment that doesn’t fit the crime for a lot of people when it comes to family separation.

Jacobsen: Now, I want to turn back to the first question before about defining Protestant as a general statistical matter, demographic matter. How do you get around these issues of getting to the facts of the matter when individuals themselves, by and large, may not necessarily know the ideas you have in mind when you’re trying to catalogue things? So, people use the word “Protestant.” They don’t know what the word Protestant means, but people who are studying it professionally to try to get the right answers have a precise definition. That which the public may or may not know about.

Burge: So it’s not easy, but there are ways around it. And one of them is we typically ask for self-identification questions, which is, “What do you consider yourself, Born Again or Evangelical?” And so if you say, “Yes,” to that question, you say you’re a Christian, then we’re going to assume you’re an Evangelical Christian. So, it’s actually about a whole lot of other people who do this kind of stuff and say, “Let’s move away from religious tradition as an idea, and let’s just ask you what you are.” So, if you say you’re Evangelical, we’ll just go, “Okay, you’re Evangelical.” It does work reasonably well. I think it’s a very good question. I think we are struggling, with religious education, religious knowledge goes to the general population. It makes our job harder and harder. But I do think that we can use other kinds of proxies, like going to church live is a pretty good proxy for Protestant, Catholic. Most people who are Catholic know they’re Catholics. That sorts that out pretty quickly. So, I think that because Christianity is the default religion in America and people know that part of it. We can use some identification standards, certain ways that backdoor our way into what like an Evangelical is, for instance.

Jacobsen: Now, 40% of evangelicals in the pew on Sunday were under 40 in the 1970s. In the 2010s, it was 29%. That is the loss of about a quarter. Why?

Burge: Because there’s a generational replacement thing where the older generation is still pretty Christian, overwhelmingly Christian. Actually, very few and probably less than 10% identify religious and political people over the age of 75. But then, they’re being replaced when they die. They’re being replaced by a younger generation where we’re seeing data analysis. Generation Z, which if you’re born in 1995 or later. 40%+ of them are religiously unaffiliated. And that is because they grew up in a culture, America, for a generations was a default Christian country. You were just Christian by your very upbringing. Now, if you grew up, you grew up in a world of religious pluralism. You could go online and research Buddhism, Hinduism, Islam, Christianity, or being Atheist or Agnostic. So, it’s become more culturally acceptable, religiously unaffiliated. It’s when you do that, what happens to the people; they just tick what they really are, People who are Nones 40 years ago actually said it. It’s because there’s been no way they can really take that option, because it is not socially acceptable. And so, it’s become more socially acceptable. We do see more and more people not going to church. And, really what you’re seeing, secularization coming to America like it came in Europe, for instance.

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2022-05-15

Ask Mandisa 62: Secular Communities and Current Issues

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/01

Here we talk about secular communities and current issues (2020).

*This was conducted June 15, 2020.*

Scott Jacobsen: What is the state of things, now, in secular communities and in those with an interest in non-intellectual stuff, in the activism? What is the state of things now?

Mandisa Thomas: There is a huge focus on what’s happening right now in the world – current events. There’s a lot of interest in the black community, and what was going on with the systemic problems of racism and economic injustice. People wanting to know what they can do: how do they support organizations that are working specifically in these areas. Also, they want to know how they can better support organizations like BN that are on the front lines. So, it is very interesting to see that shift; to better understand how they all connect beyond church-state separation.

Jacobsen: And what do you make of more prominence for the voices who have always been there, but have not been noticed as much because they’ve been living in the shadow of what, more or less, has become an echo chamber? People like yourself for community organizing. People like Dr. Hutchinson for a lot of the intellectual sociological commentary. We could go to list some relative to numbers within that particular demographic, as you say, for instance, a secular bloc in the United States. What do you make of this not massive rise, but a modest attempt in light of recent protests to reach out, to fund, to platform some of these voices who have always been there but just were not used properly before?

Thomas: So, of course, I think it is always great when we activists, authors, and organizers finally get the support that we deserve. We understand that even though it can be frustrating, that it takes some time for the importance of our work to catch on. But sometimes, we cannot help but wonder: Why all of the interest now? Is it because these issues are trending, or are people truly looking to be part of long-term solutions? But of course, we are optimistic, and are confident that people will continue to support our work for years to come.

Jacobsen: I noted this to you before. My own assumption: It is going to spike now and dip back down, but remain above baseline moving forward. That seems to be the general trend. And it is kind of a spike.

Thomas: Yes, we are definitely seeing a spike at this time. And we want it to continue, because this fight is not over. These changes need to go beyond the cycle and not go back to where they were before. The key is to support us consistently.

Jacobsen: Ma’am, thanks so much for your time.

Thomas: Thank you.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 26: Statolatry, Religiosity, Democracy, and Secularism

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/07/01

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about the Supreme Court and religious threats to public health and democratic norms.

*Interview conducted December 30, 2020*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, today, we are back with our good friend Jon. We’ll be talking about some interesting, inadvertent, indirect alliances in terms of the outcomes of a court case. So, there were two situations, one of which regards the Catholics. Another was with regards to a large Jewish gathering and then the result with a 5-4 decision, the Supreme Court of the United States. What happened? What was the outcome? What does this mean for secular communities?

Jonathan Engel: Basically what happened was that Governor Andrew Cuomo of New York issued executive orders that limited large gatherings in order to fight Covid, including religious gatherings, an example of the type of thing that Cuomo was looking to fight. And the reason why issues were ordered was a number of weeks ago, I think was about three weeks ago. Something like that. There was this huge wedding in Brooklyn among the Ultra-Orthodox Jews. You understand weddings like this. Thousands of people attended these weddings. Because it is the wedding. It is like the grand rabbi’s son or daughter getting married and like the entire community is invited. And they had this huge wedding with thousands of people. By the way, at those weddings, men and women are strictly separate and there’s tons of dancing. But men dance with men and women dance with women. The implications of any of that, we’re going to skip over for now.

But in any event, so Cuomo, that congregation was fined and Cuomo issued this order limiting these religious gatherings for purely secular reasons, for health reasons. So, two lawsuits were brought against Cuomo’s order by disparate groups. It was the Roman Catholic Diocese of Brooklyn versus Cuomo. And the other suit was the Agudath Israel of America, which is a big Ultra-Orthodox umbrella group vs Cuomo.

Jacobsen: Right there. It is the setup for a good Jerry Seinfeld joke.

Engel: Yes, I would think so. I would think so. But strange bedfellows, right? I guess politics makes strange bedfellows, but religion makes even stranger bedfellows. And they sued and the cases were consolidated in the Supreme Court. And last Wednesday, on the night before Thanksgiving, the Supreme Court, this is one of their first cases, argued with Amy Coney Barrett, who was just appointed. Another very, very, extremely religious person who was just appointed to the court by Trump. And in a 5 to 4 decision, they ruled that the foremost order violated the First Amendment’s free exercise clause, thereby freeing this to spread a deadly virus throughout New York City.

And that’s where we are right now. Right now, Cuomo is basically asking, talking to religious communities and saying, “Look, I can’t force you to obey social distancing and to help us keep everybody safe. But I’m asking you to. If I can put the Supreme Court that they can’t force you to, but I’m asking you to.” And I want to emphasize here that most religious mainstream religious congregations are doing what Cuomo has asked. But the Catholic Church in this one case, and again, this umbrella group of Ultra-Orthodox Jews have no intention of following what Cuomo has asked them to do. So, my life as a resident of New York City; my life is now more in danger than it was last Wednesday because of the Supreme Court ruling. And it is frightening both for the immediate public health issues and the more public health damage that could be done. But it is also frightening, in my view, from what this Supreme Court is willing to allow religion to do, as opposed to following civil law.

Jacobsen: Now, I mean the subtext there of both the Jerry Seinfeld jokes, the fact of longstanding centuries old anti-Semitism of the Catholic Church at the same time; the larger issue is the fact of anti-secular sentiment in the United States being at a high pitch. So, I want to take another lesson for the Canadian audience here today from the New York situation, also from the larger American context. So, if you look at Statistics Canada or StatsCan, which is the official federal statistics division or information gathering of Canada, in 2011, which is the recent census that we have on total religious numbers by self identification and household. Christians are at 67.3% of Canada. So, you’ll see these numbers at around 70%, 67%, 2/3rds. These sorts of rates will come around. If you look at Pew Research, also good research organization as well, Michael Lipka published an article in 2019 and he was noting, I may have this wrong doing at the top, but I had an article in which, as a side note, as a comment, not as the focus of the article about a survey that was done in 2018. So, an article for 2019 with a survey mentioned from 2018 in which they identified Canadians as only self identifying as 55% Christian.

And so within a span of seven years, 2011 to 2018, between StatsCan and Pew Research, you have a difference from 67.3% to 55%, which is a massive drop. So, if you do the math, 2021 should be the year in which Canadian Christians self-identified as such should be fewer than half of the total population of Canada, with margins of error for fluctuation based on different organizations doing the research and questions asked. But in general, those have been self-identifications.

The American context, it does show a decline, not as rapid, and still having more Christians in the country and in more positions of power. At the same time, the last 10 years have definitely shown an increased belligerence in light of that reduction in total numbers. What can Canadians take as a lesson from that? What can we expect in terms of just political involvement and belligerence on the part of those who feel as if they’re being compressed, when in fact they’re just reducing in numbers and then being put in the same place as everyone else, which is to seem in an equal status?

Engel: I’ll tell you. I hope it is not a harbinger of things to come from my Canadian friends and relatives. I think this is part of what’s going on in the United States with regard to that type of things. You see it from a political nature in terms of the Republican Party, which is clearly shrinking in terms of its percentage of Americans who identify as Republicans. And certainly they are a minority, but they’re looking to do things to lock in minority rule. And that’s, I think, one of the scary things that I would suggest that the people of Canada be alert for in that sense. And it is Christian, but it is also white Christians in the United States. They see that the demographics are not in their favor. As you said, fewer people are identifying as Christians. There are more non-white people in the United States than there were. So, the Republican Party as the vehicle for white Christendom in this country, they’re looking to, and they have been somewhat successful, which is scary, to lock in minority groups, so that, even though, we’re supposed to be a democracy, that they can still have the political power – even though they’re in the minority.

Now, how are they doing this? One way they have done this is their manipulation. I won’t get into the details of it. Probably, a lot of people know. But their manipulation of Supreme Court appointments, so that right now, Donald Trump just appointed 3 of the 9 United States Supreme Court justices, this is someone who lost the popular vote twice. How was that majority rule? How was that democracy? It is. But if you have a lock on the Supreme Court, you’ve got a lot of power to decide what the laws in this country will be.

And the same thing applies with what we call gerrymandering, where they create certain districts in such ways that they can wind up. And you see it a lot of times, not only in federal elections, but also in state elections, where, say, for example, I think this was recently the case in North Carolina where the Republicans had gerrymandered districts in such a way that it turned out that in an election for the state legislature, something like 53% of the people in the state voted for Democratic candidates. But of something like 50 positions available, Republicans won 30. So, wait a minute, you’re not getting the most votes. How are you winning? And the answer is the way they draw the districts in such a way, so that you have a lot of Democrats lose here. Let’s make that one district for tons and tons vote for Democrats. If there are more Republicans in other districts, then it will make that a separate district. Even though, it is much fewer people, so that they can win those Republican districts. So, what we’re seeing, again, is the threat, what I would advise mostly about is the threat to democracy that comes from white Christian people believing that their seat at the table, as the foremost people, the people with the most power fading away, that they will try to institute non-democratic norms in order to keep their power.

Jacobsen: Sir, thank you so much for your time today.

Engel: It is absolutely my pleasure, Scott.

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2022-05-15

Ask Mandisa 61: American Elections and the Black Freethought Political Movement(s)

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/30

Here we talk about Election Day, voting, and Black secularism in the United States.

*This was conducted November 2, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we are back with another “Ask Mandisa.” This will be an in-the-moment commentary, basically, the day before the elections close, the United States for the presidential federal election. Also, it will be published after. So it will be something like a retrospective in the moment. So, we can take that as a caveat to the entire conversation. Today, I wanted to focus on black, secular American views of elections in general. What are the conversations that tend to happen around these times? What’s the general attitude?

Mandisa Thomas: So, Election Day in the United States, particularly the Presidential election that takes every four years, is pretty tense in general. However, many of the conversations that take place in Black communities surround the candidates prioritizing our causes and interests. We are also checking for these officials to hold up their process once they are elected (or re-elected). Because far too often, we’ve seen campaign promises fall to the wayside. Also, the Supreme Court striking down parts of the Voting Rights Act in 2013, still hits a nerve. Because if we remember, historically blacks were denied the right to vote. And so many in our communities scrutinize the representatives on this basis.

There is also a heated debate in Black communities about the effectiveness of voting. While it is very important and I think we all should be doing so, the history of the United States and its dubious treatment of black folks has created serious skepticism. Ironically, there’s less skepticism of religion and how it seeps into politics, but the conversations definitely do vary. We look at things from a historical perspective, the candidates who they’re running, and whether or not they are actually aware of the issues that affect the black community, and what they’re going to do about them.

Jacobsen: How does that kind of conversation differ from religious black Americans perspective on these things?

Thomas: Actually, many of us share the same type of skepticism when it comes to politics and the voting, etc. But I think a major difference is that many secularists like myself don’t just vote strictly down party lines; we research our candidates more thoroughly. We like to look beyond the rhetoric, make sure that the candidates aren’t just saying what they think people want to hear, and that they’re actually going to work on behalf of the people.

We are also mindful of the religious backgrounds of those who are running for elected offices, and if that will affect their job. I have connected with a number of candidates as a representative of Black Nonbelievers, who were actually intrigued by the fact that our organization existed. And I remember telling them that we’re a part of the voting bloc, and that we are concerned about whether or not our voices will be heard. And in true politician style, they were willing to listen. But it’s always interesting to see how that plays out when they’re not on the campaign trail anymore. But more often than not, we tend to share many of the same views.

Jacobsen: Now, there are some interesting individuals who are prominent. Yet, they would not be expected to support an individual candidate like Trump. It’s unusual people like 50 Cent, Kanye West, on face value, it would seem extremely unusual for these individuals to support Donald Trump, President Trump. However, they do. So how is that conversation had in the community? If it’s had in the community, extremely prominent people, wealthy people who are black and Americans, who support Donald Trump, when in general, many black Americans did not support Donald Trump.

Thomas: So that’s been a very interesting conversation as well. Many, believers and non-believers share many of the same views regarding classism. Because Donald Trump has shown himself to favor those who are wealthy, and there are Black celebrities who fit into that category. So, he will pander to them, which is sad, because they have no idea, or they’ve forgotten what it’s like to be a regular citizen. They are not speaking for the entire black community, and to see them portrayed a doing so, many believers or non-believers alike do not agree with them at all.

It’s quite astounding to see these particular celebrities side with Trump, especially on matters pertaining to money, and not on behalf of your average citizen. And we ask ourselves, “Wow, is it really worth it?” It’s almost as bad, if not worse, than being an open atheist, because ultimately it appears as if they are ACTUALLY betraying our communities on behalf of the mighty dollar, and also on behalf of someone who really doesn’t seem to give a crap about most people in general. And so, when they are so far removed from what’s going on every day, ultimately, they only seem to care about themselves – and definitely not the communities that many of them come from.

Jacobsen: Any final thoughts on tomorrow, Election Day?

Thomas: I encourage everyone to definitely take part in the voting process. Hopefully, you would have researched your candidates and that you’re also voting on behalf of progressive and evidence-based principles. Scientific, humanistic values over self serving or corporate interests. We are the ones who make a difference. We need to realize that we can get through this pandemic if we can get through all of these other obstacles that we’re dealing with. So, I will close by saying, “Vote your values, vote your conscience, and vote on behalf of the collective and the community – not just yourself.”

Jacobsen: Mandisa, it’s a pleasure, as always.

Thomas: Thank you.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 15: The Crystal Ball for American Republicans

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/17

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about developments of faith and non-faith and their influenc on political affiliation.

*Interview conducted on August 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Now, if we look at some of the stronger points of this trajectory of developments of faith and non-faith in the United States or religion/religious affiliation in the United States, do you think that this will then change the ways in which political life is represented in the United States? So, we have Republicans and Democrats with a fraction as Independent. However, in the 2016 election, the libertarians came forward and the Green Party came forward a little bit. So, do you think that might be an augury of some of the things to be coming forward in the future?

Professor Ryan Burge: To me, I think what the big shift in American politics is going to be is that the Republican Party is going to have to find ways to reach out to the Nones. You can’t keep winning elections with white Christians because they’re losing market share every single year. That is not a winning strategy long term. Might be well now, but it is going to lose you in 20 years. I think the Republican Party has to find a way to reach out to Nones who are, maybe, more moderate politically, let’s say, or even conservative to the right of center politically and say, “Listen, we do not hate you. There’s a place in our party for you.” But at the same time, they’re going to have to be opened to doing what the Democrats do, which is speaking to the black Protestants. They’re going to speak to the Nones were also speaking to the Evangelical Protestants at the same time. So, they’re going to have to start thinking about messaging going forward that doesn’t alienate their base of white Evangelicals. But also seems at least palatable to moderates or slightly right of center Nones, especially nothing in particular, which is the most interesting category in American religious life. It is 20 percent of all Americans. Over the last three elections, they’ve trended toward the Republican Party. That’s the group the Republicans need to win elections going forward.

Jacobsen: Why do Americans individually leave religion? What are the big reasons? And also, what are the big reasons they join religion in later life? I mean, people are born into it. Two thirds stay, one thirds leave. We all know that. But as adults, why do people leave religion or why do people join religion?

Burge: So the leaving thing is really hard. Sociologically, we’re still trying to figure it out. We think that there’s this big macro level stuff like secularization theory that argues that over time you become more prosperous, economically prosperous, educationally advanced, then people want religion aside. This is not something that we talked about a lot. So, the macro reason, you feel like you believe in science more, religion less. That becomes almost your ‘God.’ Science becomes your God and your belief system in a lot of ways. So, you do not need religion to explain things. You’ve got science to do it for you. That’s part of it. I mean, but there’s also things like politics, for instance. We do know that liberals in America; 40% of them are Nones now, used to be 5%. All conservatives, the number of Nones is under 10% among conservatives in America. So, it also may be politics pulling you away, but it could be we might be caught up in a larger thing in America where we’re less social anyway.

We do not go to the Elks and the Moose, and the fraternal organizations. We do not do the community service events like we used to, because we’re less social. We do not have to be social because of the Internet. That may be part of it as well. In terms of why people come back to religion, it’s more often for social reasons, not theological reasons or spiritual reasons. You come back as you are lonely, especially amongst older Americans. We know that loneliness is an absolute epidemic. Amongst the oldest Americans today most of them spend most of their time alone, which is a real tragedy, and the church becomes a social outlet for them. They can go and have friends there and those friendships they make at church can lead to the social events and social gatherings that give them a sense of purpose again. So, I think a lot of people in America come back to church for social reasons. That also extends, by the way, to young people who have kids who want them to have a moral center, and they think the church is a good moral center. So, they bring them back to church because that’s how they were raised too. So, it is all the same thing. It is more often for social reasons. I think, though, then strictly like saving your soul type of reasons.

Jacobsen: Why do only the Evangelical Christians have their numbers as the majority Christian group to be against or to oppose same-sex marriage? Every other group does not have a majority opposing same sex marriage.

Burge: Americans’ whole world shifted dramatically in favor of same-sex marriage in the last ten years. It has been unbelievable. Looking at the polling data, it is like, “Oh, my gosh, it is an aberration.” We’re talking 10 points in four years. So, I guess part of their identity is: You want to be persecuted. You seek out persecution because the Bible says if you’re persecuted you are blessed by God, that means you’re doing the right thing. So, by holding in these extreme positions, you are getting the blessing of God because it is like, “No, we do not listen to a man’s laws. We do not care what society wants. We do what the Bible says is right. The Bible says that gay people can’t get married. So, we’re not going to allow them<’ if they stand on principle, even to their own detriment sometimes. I think that is what is an Evangelical greatest strength in some ways, which is also their greatest weakness now because they’re facing a generation of people, younger people – young Evangelicals – even now who are 55% in favor of same-sex marriage.

So, even people in their own pews, they do not support the theology being taught from the pulpit. They’re trying to reach out to the generation. The younger generation was not Evangelical already. I’ve got to say: Young people are in favor of same-sex marriage. So, it is boxing them in a lot of ways because they’re not being attracted to this potential audience, because the things they believe are antithetical to what a lot of young people grew up with. So, it is there. As I said, it is their greatest strength to hold it together because it gives them this distinctive idea or distinctive identity. But at the same time, it is their greatest weakness because it will make them incredibly hard to be attractive to young people who can’t go to a church where gay people are seen as less than straight people. So, that’s why Evangelicals are what they are. For good or for ill, that’s who they are.

Jacobsen: Ryan, again, thank you so much for the wealth of information and interview today.

Burge: It is always a pleasure, Scott, appreciate it.

Jacobsen: All right, take care. Have fun at the baseball game.

Burge: Bye-bye.

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2022-05-15

Ask Mandisa 60: Protests Matter

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/11

Here we talk about social movements and rhetoric.

*This was conducted June 1, 2020.*

Scott Jacobsen: So since we last talked, so it’s June 1st now, I think making an explicit timestamp is important. There are issues to do with what to do. Obviously, most of the media is focusing on individual stark events along with the protests, some minor riots. But there’s also, it’s happening throughout the country. This is expanding around the world based around at least one branch of it, a movement founded by three queer women. The United States for Black Lives Matter, there has been some in Toronto and in Vancouver as well. And so other than responses, people obviously are looking for solutions. And so let’s talk about the legitimate rage today and constructive pragmatic solutions to a lot of the issues that this is just a flashpoint of things that have been going on for an extremely long time in the United States. What are your thoughts when it comes to constructive pragmatic solutions here?

Mandisa Thomas: Yes, so as we know, there has been another string of murders of black people at the hands of law enforcement. And in one case, former law enforcement. Sadly, the black community has endured this level of terrorism for years, and we are really getting tired of hearing the same rhetorical calls for justice. Along with the justifications for the actions on behalf of the police officer(s), which usually results in them being found not guilty due to their positions of authority.

So now, there are rising levels of resistance. And the latest incident, which involved the death of George Floyd in Minneapolis, MN, really sparked off unprecedented levels of global protests. While civil unrest is not uncommon throughout history, this is now a opportune time to make some serious institutional changes. For example, there needs to be an overhaul of law enforcement, especially their training tactics for hostile situations. Because deadly force isn’t always necessary, like in the case of Floyd, who died as a result of an alleged counterfeit $20 bill, and definitely Breonna Taylor, who was killed by law enforcement in Louisville, KY, as a result of a no-knock warrant. And in THAT case, the police had incorrect details about who they were supposed to be apprehending.

So there is much that many state, local and federal law enforcement agencies need to change. But as far as what the people can do, one important thing is expressing outrage as much as possible. This doesn’t affect just black folks, it also affects our entire country and communities. And it’s important to talk to to your local officials, and also contribute by either volunteering and/or donating to organizations that focus on, and are run by people of color. Whether their work ranges from direct action like protesting, to providing various support services, contribute substantively instead of just trying to get educated on these matters.

Jacobsen: And in Atlanta, we have T.I. using his fame for good, while also informing us Atlanta is Wakanda. What is being done at ground zero at home for you?

Thomas: I didn’t have the opportunity to go to the protests in downtown Atlanta. But there are so many organizers who are doing wonderful work, and organizing peaceful protests. Unfortunately, the first night there was severe violence and destruction of property, including some black businesses. I know that Atlanta Mayor Keisha Lance-Bottoms, a black woman, spoke out against that part (i.e., the destruction of property and damage of property), as well as some other noted celebrities like T.I, like you mentioned, But I think one of the worst things that people can do is JUST tell people to calm down and act like they don’t have the right to be angry.

And it’s interesting; that kind of statement implies that a utopian black society is far more advanced than any other. Which isn’t out of the realm of possibility, but it also a loaded premise. This shows that we as Black people don’t agree on everything. And honestly, there’s nothing wrong with calls for calm in a very tense situations. However, painting the protesters as the ONLY aggressors in unfair. But I know that there have been individuals and organizations who have supported the protesters with bail, and providing supplies during the protests as well. Both in Atlanta, and around the country.

I prefer foundationally supporting the activists that are directly doing the protest work. Indeed, I have attended protests in my life, and I think they are important. But right now, Atlanta is in a similar situation like many other cities. City officials are trying to process and deal with this as much as possible – hopefully, while understanding that the people absolutely have justified anger, especially within the black community.

Jacobsen: Is it a fundamental attitude of arrogance on the part of some American citizens to dismiss the rage felt by other Americans across the board?

Thomas: Absolutely. And it is not only arrogant, it is inhumane to be dismissive of the plight of those who have been affected by police brutality. Those who have witnessed the over-policing of their neighborhoods, and the blatant disregard for the people. There are a lot of people who think that if it doesn’t happen in their area, then it doesn’t affect them. And unfortunately, it tends to be a lot of white people who are guilty of this, and we just have to be honest about that. And it also adds to why these things don’t seem to go away.

And just as there are reactions to those protesting the actions of law enforcement, we also witness the reactions of the citizens who side with them. Even in cases where they were excessive, which is absolutely mind-boggling to me, because there should be no unnecessary loss of life especially at their hands. Because they should be properly trained to deescalate these situations. And I do understand that many police officers are affected by the job, and that they deal with a lot of violence on many levels. That being said, there also needs to be better mental health support for law enforcement. Because if they are expected to do this job day in and day out with little to no preparation, and excessive force actions are just swept under the rug, then nothing changes. And these incidents will continue to take place.

Jacobsen: President Trump, as of yesterday at some of the heights of protest at the White House, went into the White House bunker. First, I didn’t know the White House had a bunker. Second, it is indicative as to a stance of fear of general public protest on the part of those in leadership. It appears to show an acknowledgement of doing wrong and then just hiding from the consequences. Is this fundamentally the problem since November 2016 with this current administration, with the creation of problems and then the deflection of blame and then hiding from any kind of responsibility for any problems that are caused?

Thomas: We are seeing an egregious case of a person in office who avoids responsibility and accountability as much as they possibly can. And this, unfortunately, has trickled down to the attitudes of administrators on the local levels. And years of mistreatment have left people feeling let down, and fed up.

And so, to this horrendous behavior we have witnessed, it’s important for us to take notes and action. And hopefully, we’re able to track not just this incident, but also how this president and this current administration has mistreated others, especially during the pandemic. This is not only important for the American people, but also the world.

Jacobsen: Mandisa, as always, thank you so much.

Thomas: Thank you.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 14: Projections, Demographics, and a Hunch

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/11

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about percentages and projections, and a hunch.

*Interview conducted on August 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I should at least take a step back. There is an issue in which agnostics and atheists differ. This is with regards to support for abortion, but it is more to do with support for abortion on demand. How do they differ and on what lines?

Professor Ryan Burge: Yes, so, I was really interested in what conservative atheists, like the most politically conservative atheists, agnostics: How are they politically active in the world? Politically because, I’m a political scientist. So, for us, everything is downstream of politics. So, I want to see if a politically conservative atheist or agnostic sees the world in the same way that a politically conservative Evangelical or Catholic does. Come to find out, a politically conservative agnostic, even a conservative agnostic, only 28.8% of them are in favour of abortion on demand, compared to 55% of the conservative atheist. So, they’re even more agnostic from way more pro-life, twice as pro-life as a conservative atheist. It is super interesting because it shows you something about atheists. To them, being able to get an abortion whenever you want is like sacrosanct even to conservative members of that community.

Both liberals, it’s above 90%, but even among conservatives, 55% of agnostics go from 95% to 28%. I mean, that’s a huge drop. So, it is telling me something about agnostics, how they see the world ethically and morally, and they’re not morally liberal, let’s say, as your atheists are. You shouldn’t see daylight between the two groups.

Jacobsen: So, 1978 and 2018 is a significant time with four decades looking at the ethnic grouping of whites and the timeline of going to church per week. What was the shift there between 1978 and 2018 for the three major political categories and states? That’s fascinating.

Burge: So, this is super important. Because if you look at white Democrats versus white Republicans, that’s really where the difference shoots out because black Democrats go to church a lot because of black Protestant Christianity. Black Protestants are as religiously faithful as white Evangelicals are; they go to church as much. So, you pull them out of the mix. What you see is really the difference, so, you look at a white Democrat and a white Republican. 43% of white Democrats never go to church, then another 23.7%. So, you’re talking about a total of like 2/3rds of white Democrats going to church less than once a year. Amongst white Republicans, it is only 36%. So, almost half, half as much. So, about a 1/3rd of white Republicans go to church less than once a year, compared to 66% of white Democrats.

So, half of white liberals in America today identify as religiously unaffiliated. Half of white liberals, which tells you a lot about what the future of the party. The Democratic Party to me is going to get harder and harder over time to be the party that appeals to black Protestants who are religiously active, but politically active and also theologically conservative, are cool with gay marriage and abortion. At the same time, they will need to appeal to white liberal Nones who are extra liberal on policy issues. That’s a hard circle to square to try to appeal to this group, and that group, at the same time. The Republican Party is much easier because, like we talked about, it is the party of white Christianity, which can hit those high notes. You’re going to hit 80% of the people with one message. You do not have to try mixed messages based on your audience like the Democratic Party. If I was going to campaign politics, my own views aside, it’d be a lot easier to run a campaign for a Republican candidate than a Democrat candidate. Because of that, you only have that one note. You hit it every single time. A Democrat is much more versatile with different groups.

Jacobsen: We’re looking at the trajectory of the ratios of each particular denomination or non-denomination or non-religion in the United States. If we project those 50 years forward, what will the larger groups become in the United States?

Burge: Yes, so, 50 years for denominational Christianity is going to be a small portion of America. So, your Baptists, United Methodists, Episcopalians, all those are going to be a small portion of America. Maybe, 20% of Americans are going to be part of a denomination. I still think the Catholic Church is going to hold strong. But then, I think what you’re going to see is another 20%. They’re going to be non-denominational Protestants. I think there’s going to be a day in my lifetime when non-denominational Protestants outnumber denominational Protestants. I mean, so, American Christianity, we’re going to look like a 1/3rd denominational Protestants, a third non-denominational Protestants, and a third of Catholics. That’s really what it means to some philosophizing like that. The Nones, they’re going to be made a 30% to 35% by themselves. The last 5% is going to be your atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Mormons, Buddhists – everybody else is going to fall in that category. So, I do think there’s a future where American Christianity looks much different than it does today.

Jacobsen: How big will the Nones be?

Burge: Oh, I think they’re going to peak around 40%. That’s the plateau that I see in the data. Because if you look at millennials, they hit this peak at 40%, put a hold there. So, I think that somewhere upper 30s or low 40s is where I see that stopping. I get asked about that a lot, and that’s a hunch. That’s not really based on any data. I mean, obviously, projections can change for a bunch of reasons. But I do think that I do not see a future where 50% of Americans are religiously unaffiliated, at least not in my lifetime. So, probably 40% where they’re going to peak, then America is going to be 50% people of faith, almost all of them, maybe 5%, are going to be something else. 55% are going to be your Christians probably.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Burge.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 13: Christianity on Bleach in the Middle East

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/10

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about higher levels of social forgiveness for pastoral leadership, Jordan Peterson, Mark Driscoll, and Eric Metaxas, and the nature of American Christianity.

*Interview conducted on August 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Does this bubble phenomenon reflect something akin to the rapid growth of Mark Driscoll – Mars Hill Church, followed by its scandal, popping, and collapse? He came in with the infinite forgiveness given within some of these communities. Of course, he’s starting again in a different state. However, is this a common phenomenon also tied to that? You use the term “guy” many times. Why are guys given all the authority, as well, in most of these churches?

Professor Ryan Burge: Because the Bible says so. It is really clear that they take their cue from Epistles, and it says women can’t be pastors. They have to be silent in the church. I mean, very few Evangelical churches allow women anywhere close to the pulpit. I mean, almost none. Like that is the distinction in the sort of conventional ways you can never be a woman pastor. So, I think guys because, most of these non-denominational pastors, I would say 95% or more are men as well. Even though they don’t have any sort of the doctrinal statements that the Baptists do. The only outlier I can think of was Willow Creek in Chicago. The pastor was going to retire. His church managed to appoint two people to replace him as the senior pastor. And what was the matter? One was a woman. That was scandalous for a lot of Evangelicals. That just doesn’t happen. But in Evangelicalism, 98% of pastors are men, especially preaching pastors because women can’t preach. It is just not theologically allowed. So, that’s why I say men because it is just always men.

Jacobsen: What explains the phenomenon of individuals, including Francis Chan, Matt Chandler, Rick Warren, Mark Driscoll, and others, at times, with this very belligerent presentation of church theology? How people should act, what their roles are in society, and the ways in which they should live out the religious life, often, comes in a very proselytizing form, sometimes abusive.

Burge: People are drawn towards certainty and surety and confidence. They want to be told what to believe. They want to be told how to act and why that’s important. They want that. Not everybody, but a lot of people are drawn to structure, they’re drawn to order. They’re drawn to clear guidelines of what the community wants and what it demands and what it requires of you. They don’t want to have to work things out themselves. They are sort of want to be told what to believe. And actually, that’s precisely what makes it easy to hold a group together because you’re all on the same page theologically. Not to excite over things like, “Well, we’ve got a woman here who wants to preach. What do we do? No, we’re not going to let her preach.” Like, that’s great from a sociological standpoint, a group dynamic standpoint, because you don’t have debates over every little thing.

So, there’s an old John Wesley quote, who is the founder of Methodism. He said, ‘If you set yourself up on fire, people will come to watch you burn.’ And I think that’s a lot of it. These people like these pastors who are so sure of themselves. It becomes viral. You hear Mark Driscoll yelling at young men to grow up, stop being kids, take care of your wife, be a man. You’re like, “Yes, let’s do that.” Those are the kind of services that go viral and grow your audience bigger. So, I think it is all tied up in the sensationalism of the whole thing. Mark Driscoll would preach for an hour every Sunday like that. It would go on forever. And people just like that. They like that he was bold and courageous and said what he thought. And he said some stuff that was outside the mainstream. It was like, “Jesus loves you, get saved.” It was like, “Men be men, and women be women, and be a good father.” The sort of masculinity project that a lot of people like because they felt like young men were not being as masculine, as responsible as they could be. And they sort of aspired to be what Mark Driscoll was. Come to find out the dude was like abusive to his staff and really was not a great leader in a lot of ways, but that’s beyond the point for them because he helped them get to be in a better place.

Jacobsen: Do you think this explains some semi-secular, semi-religious phenomenon, including the clinical psychologist from the University of Toronto, the mythologically-oriented Christian-in-the-closet Jordan Peterson?

Burge: I don’t know. I don’t understand Jordan Peterson. I don’t get the of this appeal man. It’s crazy. As you were talking, I was thinking. There is this book that just came out called Jesus and John Wayne by a Christian from Calvin College, which is actually a pretty conservative Evangelical school in Grand Rapids, Michigan. She talks about Christianity’s very odd relationship with masculinity. In the 2000s, there was a book called Wild At Heart by John Eldridge, which basically argues men want to be like heroes. They want to go on conquest and they want adventures and all this kind of stuff. And those women want to be rescued, like this very like gender roles thing that happened. Evangelicalism has always been tied up with masculinity. Even American conservative politics has been tied up with same thing too, “We don’t apologize. And I don’t care about your feelings, and I don’t care what you think.” That kind of confidence is what a lot of people like, especially on the conservative side, theologically, and politically too. They don’t want to have like, “Well, let’s talk about it. Let’s discuss viewpoints, and we are going to be right.” They don’t want that.

They want to be told what’s right. And they want to say, “You know what, Donald Trump is the greatest thing ever for us because he says the quiet part out loud.” They’ll say, “Listen, you’re somewhat forgetful for black and brown people. We don’t like that. You re-elect me. We’ll get them right out of there.” It’s more like, “Democrats are going to destroy Christianity.” He said that as point one. They like that. They want that straight talk because that’s how they talk. I don’t like locker room talk. We’ll get a little rough over there because we’re just getting more racially diverse. So, that kind of talk works from the pulpit. It also works from the political lectern because people want to be. They want to have you say what they say just directly and straightly without any of the nuance of political correctness. And that’s makes pastors successful and the politicians successful too.

Jacobsen: Now to the original tweet from Eric Metaxas, “Jesus was white.” Now, if I pose to you a geography of two thousand years ago or so in the Middle East, or in a heat and blistering sun, of a Jewish person who is described as having skin of bronze and hair of sheep’s wool, would you describe this person as blond haired, blue eyed and white?

Burge: No, I don’t know how you came up with a Norwegian fella, but like there he is. And that’s tied up the whole idea of how we create God in our own image. We create Jesus in our own image. And if you just have a cursory understanding of geography and ethnicity and how all these things play together with demography, Jesus wasn’t white. Even if he was white, he sure as hell wasn’t white like Americans are white. He was dark skinned. There’s no way in the world he wasn’t dark skinned either, like olive covered, Middle Eastern. There’s just no way. But it is posturing. It is all posturing because, listen: Jesus is white because American Christianity is white. That’s the way it is. And so, what you’re really getting is a conflation between theological identity and political identity and racial identity, the American Republican Party is the party of white Christians. The American Republican Party is the party of white Christianity and the Democratic Party is the party of everybody else. That means Christians of color, but it also means atheists, Hindus, Muslims, Buddhists, Jews, everybody else. There’s sort of a catch-all.

And in order for the Republican Party to stay what it is, it has to keep mustering the troops in and the discussion about Jesus being white is like bread and butter for the Republican Party because they are the party of white Christianity. But you have to keep in mind that, Jesus was white. Systemic racism does exist. Because that’s the world you live in, because ‘white people don’t do anything wrong.’ So, all those things are tied together: conservative theology, conservative politics, but also whiteness is intimately tied to American Christianity. A great book called The Cross and the Lynching Tree, by James H. Cone really tied all this stuff together, talking about how American Christianity has been intimately tied up with slavery, racism and all the things that go with that since the very beginning. And you can almost not pull one thing for another. They are intertwined in such a way that you can’t extract one from the other to our own detriment.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Burge.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 12: Local Versus National-International

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/06

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about the national-international versus the local focus of various Christian denominations.

*Interview conducted on August 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, Eric Metaxas seems like a nice and reasonable guy, stated, “Jesus was white. Did he have ‘white privilege,’ even though he was entirely without sin? Is the United Methodist Church covering that? I think it could be important.” So, you were mentioning that conservatives like to beat up on their perception of liberal mainline denominations.

Burge: Yes.

Jacobsen: What’s the reality there?

Burge: Yes, the reality is the mainline Protestant churches have always been right in the center. By going back to 1972, they got data. 46 years of data and not a single year, have they moved to the left of Independent? Never. Now it seems like they are drifting more towards the left side. They still have not crossed the midpoint. Yet, they are not. I wrote this post one time. I think American Christianity actually balanced American conservative denominations and liberal denominations, but that’s not true. It’s factually untrue. And there’s no way you can get there in the data. There’s just no way because, if you think about it, the largest denomination in America today, established denomination, is the Southern Baptist Convention. And they are like 75% Republicans.

Jacobsen: They have been declining for a decade too.

Burge: Yes, correct. Actually, I was just doing work on that today, looking at their numbers over time, checking their future and things like that. But yes, they were 10% of the population in 1988 and now 5% of population in 2018. So, they are half the size. But here’s the thing. Evangelicalism as a whole is basically a point or two smaller today than it was 20 years ago. So, Evangelicals for the whole have not declined that much because this nondenominational Evangelical Christianity has exploded in size. In 1998, five percent of Americans were non-denominational Evangelicals. It is 11% today. So, for 20 years, they’ve doubled in size. And indeed, nondenominational churches now are larger than the SBC ever was. And guess what? They are just as Republican as the SBC was. They are actually in some ways more conservative than the SBC ever was. So, the SBC has basically declined, but they’ve been replaced by nondenominational Evangelical Christianity, which is just as conservative now and growing larger than the SBC never was. So, your counterbalance is the United Methodists. United Methodists are majority Republicans, actually trending more Republican over time.

The Episcopal Church, that’s a liberal church. I’ll buy it. But only 40% of people there are Republicans today. So, there’s no counterbalance. There’s no large denomination in America today that is the size of the SBC and is as one sided to the left as the SBC is to the right. It just doesn’t exist. And so, there’s no balance there. So, the mainline, the liberal. I call it the liberal mainline. I’m like, what are you talking about? Find it for me. I don’t see in the data, because what they do is they look at it like what seminary presidents say, what the national leaders say, and what the people like this say. The average person filling the pews at the center in this church. They don’t buy that stuff. So, there is no large, coherent left leaning group, a Christian group in America today. It does not exist. And I don’t think people understand that.

Jacobsen: Now, the managing editor of Canadian Atheist, has some hesitations and critiques of the term “the Nones” for a variety of reasons[1],[2],[3]. I won’t cover that. However, I want to touch more on what was mentioned, which is the term “non-denominational.” What is meant by it? Because I was reading between the lines in conversations with people who have highly individualized meanings.

Burge: Non-denominational?

Jacobsen: Yes. What is meant by that?

Burge: It just means you’re Protestant, but you don’t align with an established denomination like down here, e.g., Lutheran, Episcopalian or whatever else. But you know what’s funny? Theologically, they’re basically Southern Baptists. We have a book myself. When I call others, we have a good book out now, about non-denominational Christianity. There’s very little difference between a born again non-denominational and a born-again Southern Baptist. They are exactly the same on issues of the Devil and the Bible and gay marriage and abortion and everything else. So, they’re just Evangelicals who don’t like the label Baptist, to be completely honest with you. Very few of them I would even classify as moderate because they’re not moderate. They’re far from the right of center and they look like full Baptists in terms of economics, demography, political ideology and all that stuff.

Jacobsen: It sounds like some pastors and preachers who tapped into some of the anti-religious sentiment in the United States that has grown over time when they’ll say, “That’s not Christianity. That’s religion.” And they use this kind of avoidance language in order to prop up the same ideological or the same theological and sociological commitments while distancing themselves from that which has been critiqued. Although, it is the same thing that has been critiqued. It simply goes by a different name in so far as they’re proposing it.

Burge: Yes. So, there’s something else that goes on there that we’re really into this question of authority in religion: Who do we listen to? Who do we follow? And the reality is that what we found is that most Americans are very reluctant to follow the authority of some national headquarters of your denomination that you’ve never seen before, and you don’t know those people. So, that kind of authority is very weak. Most Americans don’t like that, but they are very willing to accept the authority of their local pastor to tell them what to do. So, if I know the guy and I see the guy and I believe the guy because I see him all the time, I have to follow that guy to hell because that’s where he wants me to go. But if it is some nameless, faceless bureaucrat in some national office thousands of miles away, I don’t want my money to go there because they’re going to waste my money. Right? So, it is not that the non-denominational Protestants are anti-authority. They just like their authority to be right there in their face every day. And they like the fact that no one tells him what to do except the person they see every Sunday. The United Methodist Church in America. Your pastor is decided by the denomination, and they will move your pastor every couple of years without your input, usually at all.

A lot of Americans hate that idea. They want their pastor. They want to choose their pastor, choosing to come, choosing to leave. You know that kind of stuff. So, it is authority. It is just local, local authority. Our thesis is the idea that these known denominations; they have a small radius of concern. They really only care about their church family and then maybe their larger community, but their local community, not state interest or national interest or, God forbid, international interest. They just care about what’s going on in their little bubble. And they want that to devote all their time to that bubble. And actually, we found that they are not doing other political stuff because they spend so much time with church stuff. They’re not as political, let’s say, as an active Southern Baptist because they’re really stuck in this bubble. A lot of non-denominational churches have a very local community focus. And I think that’s a real distinction between them. Non-denominational and Southern Baptist is where the focus of that, local versus national-international.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Burge.

Footnotes

[1] “Ask Mark 1 — Somethin’ About Nothin’: The Nones Ain’t Nothin’” (Hyperlink)

[2] “Ask Mark 2 — Squeezing More Some Things from Nothings” (Hyperlink)

[3] “Ask Mark 3— Peeves, to Nones, and Back Again: A Tale of Marko Gibbons” (Hyperlink)

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 11: Sentiments, Prejudices, and Attitudes Over Time

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/04

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about sentiments and attitudes in the United States over time, and the nature of the ubiquitous hatred of atheists in the United States – a hate that unifies all.

*Interview conducted on August 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Now, you did a short clip. If America was 200 people, the biggest category is Protestants at 78 people, 36 Catholics, 11 atheists, 11 agnostics, etc. If we look at some of the other data around forms of bigotry and hate, the three that came to mind when I looked at the data from Canadian statistics, StatsCan. There was a rise in what has been termed Islamophobia or anti-Muslim sentiment, anti-Semitism, as well as anti-Catholic prejudice. Those are the three big ones. What is it? What are the rises and falls of this in America? Which is to say, who is experiencing things better in the recent history of the United States? Which ones are experiencing things worse in terms of just the way those trend lines are going?

Professor Ryan Burge: Yes, so, I think anti-Catholic sentiment especially in America, used to be much higher, 30 or 40 years ago than it is today. And there’s a bunch of reasons for that. There’s a lot of anti-Catholic sentiment in America going back to immigration. Let’s say even one hundred years ago in New York, Jews are not just the ones experiencing prejudice and discrimination. Italians and Irish people came to America, and they were Catholic. And America was largely across the country at the time. So, it was like, “Wait, wait, wait, if you’re going to come to America, you need to assimilate to our religion. And we are Protestant. So, you need to be Protestant.” So the Catholic priest was actually tied up into an immigrant piece where it wasn’t they are necessarily against Catholics. They were anti-other and just all the others were Catholic. Now, I think in a lot of places in America that has sort of waned dramatically, especially post Vatican II.

So here’s what I think happened in America. For a long time, Protestants had an enemy and that was Catholics. They were the outsider. They were the different one. But then in the last 20 or 25 years or so, the ‘other’ becomes Islam; and now, Protestants and Catholics look at each other and go, “Wait, we’re a lot closer than we thought we were. Islam is the enemy.” So, now, it is like, “Okay, we’re on one team now and the ‘other’ now is not Catholics. The other now is Muslims. So, there’s a lot, even like I said, in Vatican II as well, the Catholic Church, basically, said, “The Protestants are not the enemy. We are going to get to heaven, just like Catholics will.” So, there was an acceptance there, both sides that “you’re okay, we’re okay,” but somebody needs to go down. Even though, there are a lot of Protestants who do not like the Pope and are anti-Catholic in theological orientation. Sociologically, they still see Catholics as sort of cousins, distant cousins, that are still a part of our team and the enemy more than is Muslim.

So, we’ve seen a decline in anti-Catholic sentiment, but a rise in anti-Muslim sentiment. But I think that’s actually waning in America over the last couple of years because 9/11 has sort of faded into the background and the wars in Iraq and Afghanistan have also faded into the background. And I think it is still there, but it doesn’t have that fever pitch that it did – let’s say 10 years ago. We’re still fighting in both places. And 9/11 isn’t very fresh. So, I think it is waning as well. The group Americans don’t like the most actually is atheists, even Democrats. People are amazed by that. But it is Democrats. I have a poll somewhere, where I say, “Why don’t more Americans like atheists?” And honestly, it is: Democrats don’t like atheists either. It is not just like a faith versus no faith thing. It is just not a very palatable need to be an American today.

So, if I looked at the thermometer score, which is a score from zero to one hundred, 100 meaning like very warm, 0 being very cold, 50 meaning not hot or cold. Atheist’s score among Evangelicals below 30. For Catholics, they score 42 for Democratic Catholics and 33 for Republican Catholics. But here’s what’s even more fascinating among the religiously unaffiliated atheist score, a 54 among Democrat’s Nones. A 45 among Republican Nones. So, there’s not even a warm feeling there among Nones towards atheists. So, they are a very disliked groups.

Jacobsen: What is the source or set of sources for this ‘not liking them’?

Burge: Why don’t they like atheists?

Jacobsen: Yes, I mean the general statement there. Why don’t Americans like atheists? Why are they the other?

Burge: Because America is like inherently a Christian country. Okay, so, there’s this thing called civic religion in America. And we’ve got a long history in American social science. If the idea that the flag is sacred, like Arlington Cemetery is a place of reverence, going to the Lincoln Memorial and the Washington Monument and walking around Washington, D.C. is walking in a sacred space, like a mosque, a religious site, then that American national identity is deeply intertwined with American religious identity and that the default in America is: You are a Christian. That’ is to say, every president we’ve had, at least as far back as we can tell, has aligned themselves with American Christianity. And I think that is just how we see ourselves, even like we said even amongst the Nones, they still kind of defer to an idea that Christianity is still the default in America, right or wrong.

So, I think a lot of it is tied up in this idea of civic religion. like we say, “God bless America,” or, “So help me God.” And we swear on Bible. People swear on Bible; even though, they don’t believe the Bible, because it is just a thing that we do. Because we believe in it so much. And atheists just don’t. They reject all that stuff. So, that’s a tough pill to swallow. They might not be devoutly Christian themselves, “But I don’t hate Christianity.”

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Burge.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 10: Academia and Religion

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/03

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about religion and Academia, and research into religion.

*Interview conducted on August 4, 2020.*

Scott Jacobsen: So there are private universities in Canada, there are private university in United States. Often, they are going to be of a particular religious denomination. Given the demographics of North America, they are most likely to harbor a status, denominational status, as some form of Christian. So, there’s another question there, though. It has to do with academic freedom. What is the intersection there between academic freedom and religious status for university? Is there a conflict there in general in the United States of America?

Professor Ryan Burge: I would say that most Christian schools are of two minds about academic freedom, especially the administration, because they realize that they want to get the best faculty they want to get. But at the same time, they realize that to keep the donor base happy a lot of these schools, are attached to national denominations that are pretty wealthy, a lot of them. So you have to sort of hold the line of what denomination you want. And that means oftentimes saying these lifestyle statements or covenant statements about how you’re going to behave not just on campus, but also off campus. And, I’ve heard even a couple of these schools. I mean, early in my career when I didn’t really know where I was going to end up, I was just sort of casting a wide net. I interviewed at several schools. Many of them would be the first by Canadian audience, which would seem to be very conservative. Definitely, conservative Evangelical, not like Bob Jones or Liberty or places like that, but definitely like one step away from that.

And the conversation I had about tenure was an interesting one because, I mean, they would say things like, “Okay, we do have tenure here, but it can be revoked. It has never happened or it is very unlikely to happen….” They use language like that, that you would have to do something that clearly was a violation of the covenant, the doctrine and theology of our university. But, there are many examples of times when universities have actually revoked the tenure of tenured professors. Wheaton College opened in Chicago, which a lot of people called the Evangelical Harvard and actually a lot of very prominent Evangelicals in America went to Wheaton College. They make you sign a lifestyle statement that also said that homosexuality is incompatible with the gospel and things like that. But one of their political science professors, interestingly enough, one year on Facebook said that Christians and Muslims worship the same God and believe in the same God. And that caused quite an uproar. And eventually, she left Wheaton. It is one of those things where, “I didn’t say that she got fired. They got her to say that she quit.” They separated it. That’s the language they would use, and she got some kind of settlement that was never disclosed.

So, there are instances where you really don’t have as much freedom. It was actually, I think, super interesting because it is like way under covered by the media. For a long time, American religion to politics, especially people who are Evangelicals in America. The vast majority of those scholars were Evangelicals themselves, teaching at Evangelical institutions. So I think there was some pressure there, maybe just internally or institutionally that said, “Don’t try to put Evangelicals in too bad of a light for a bunch of reasons.” So, I think for a long time, American research on Evangelical political behavior and policy was sort of stunted. It was sort of held back because there wasn’t a diversity of opinions, beliefs and backgrounds among those studying Evangelicals. I will say today that is much better. There are Evangelicals who are studying Evangelicals, but there are atheists, studying Evangelicals. There are people of other faith groups. It is really the full spectrum.

Now, I think Evangelicals get a fairer reading, meaning a more honest reading now today than they got 20 years ago because the diversity of scholarship around Evangelical beliefs and in their voting behavior. So I think it is better now, but for a long time it was very one sided because of the makeup of academia.

Jacobsen: And for clarity of the audience, you did, in a prior portion of life, identify as Evangelical Christian.

Burge: I grew up Evangelical. I do not identify as Evangelical any longer. I am clearly mainline Protestant Christian, which is a tradition that has United Methodist and American Baptist; which is what I am, the Presbyterian Evangelical Lutheran Church of America, the Episcopalians, the Anglicans, and places like that. So our church, we allow women to preach. We allow them to all sorts of leadership positions. Many of the churches in our denomination do welcome and affirm LGBT lifestyle. We are socially progressive. Our church gave a pension to Coretta Scott King, Martin Luther King Jr.’s widow, after he was assassinated. You really don’t have to do that. They did that because of racial justice work for them. So we are the more moderate flavor of American Christianity. Sort of the polite Christianity, that a lot of people grew up with. It doesn’t seem to exist anymore in a lot of places. I did grow up Evangelical, but I don’t identify as Evangelical any longer.

Jacobsen: What denominations of Christianity have an explicit orientation towards political involvement as in wanting that conflation of political life and religious life?

Burge: That’s a good one. I don’t think there was. I thought the black church. Okay, so, the African Methodist Episcopal Church in America, a lot of black Pentecostals are very politically active, and unabashedly so. There are all kinds of historical reasons for that, because they grew up at a time and their churches were formed at a time when black politicians could not get an audience in a white church or white community center or white group at all. So, the black church became sort of their safe haven. So that’s why they were so politically active. They really had no other choice. They couldn’t be politically active in any other way because they had no access to institutions like white people did. So, the black church, for sure. And there are pockets of American Evangelical denominations that are politically active. But by and large, most churches, speaking broadly at the aggregate level, are very resistant to being overtly political. I mean, there’s always examples that we can point to, like Robert Jeffress, the first church of Dallas, Texas, who was incredibly political and really become a Trump supporter on every issue it.

Those guys are very rare, though. The average Baptist, Southern Baptist, even the Southern Baptist preachers, are not overtly political from the pulpit because they realize that the vast majority of the American public does not want pastors and denominations to be overtly political. And so that kind of a certain denomination, there are certain churches in denominations or pastors in denominations who are our political, but they are definitely not the norm. They are the outlier cases where they just get focused on a lot in the media.

Jacobsen: And what ones are the most hesitant? We can recall certain cases where individuals like Billy Graham were burned in their political dealings. So, there was a very prominent, if not the most prominent, example of an individual who was clearly a very religious man, a Christian religious man, who took a step back in a number of ways due to being burned around Nixon.

Burge: Yes. I would say that denominations that are the least likely to speak about politics are the ones that are most divided politically. For instance, the United Methodist Church in America is very divided politically. So the United Methodist Church is the largest mainline denomination in America. They’re sort of the counterpart to the Southern Baptists. But United Methodist are like 50 to 55 percent Republican and 40 percent Democrats or so. So that’s a pretty good mix for a church. And so that denomination has tried its best to try to navigate these differences in opinion by trying to be as noncommittal as possible. So what you’ve seen, though, this is sort of the downside of trying to be everything to everybody in the last year. They’ve decided they’re going to split. The conservatives are going to form a new denomination where they’re not going to affirm the LGBT lifestyle and the United Baptist Church is going to stay to what it is and be open and affirming to LGBT people. So, there is a huge downside to being noncommittal like that because it does fester discontent and division just at the lower levels.

And so, I think churches like that; churches that are more divided; you’re going to see less commitment; you’re going to see less overt politics. Churches that are unified, 80 percent Republicans, 80 percent Democrats. You’re going to see a lot more overt politicking. The pastors know while they’re talking about politics. They’re just goosing their base. They’re not making anybody mad and they’re not going to lose the support because of that. So that’s really what pastors are thinking about the most as well, to keep my job safe and to do that.

Jacobsen: Now you use the term “lifestyle” or the “LGBT lifestyle.” This has a lot of meanings, even though it comes in the same term or phrase. What are the different interpretations of this in general?

Burge: Yes, so, there’s a clear delineation in Evangelical thinking about homosexuality. Okay, you don’t say that one standard is created equal to the other standard. No one said, “It is worse than another.” But when they talk about homosexuality, there are homosexual thoughts. Then there are homosexual actions. And I think a lot of Evangelicals have come down on the side that you might have. You only have homosexual proclivities. You might be attracted to someone of your own gender, for instance. But if you don’t act on that, you live a celibate lifestyle, then you aren’t sitting because you’re not acting on that. However, what’s interesting about that, though, is Evangelicals also at the same time will say that if you hold lustful thoughts for someone who is not your partner, then you have sinned.

So this is this really weird gray area where they don’t know what to do with homosexuality? A lot of Evangelicals think that homosexuality is just a simple thought pattern, like alcoholism or something like that. Like you can work your way through it, that your brain has basically been kind of deluded with sin. And that’s what makes you attractive to someone of the same sex as you. And if you turn yourself over to Jesus, then those thoughts will go away; and you’ll be returned back to right thinking, which is, heterosexual attraction, heterosexual activity. So the Evangelicals have a lot of them come down and say, “If you do have homosexual thoughts, or if you feel like that’s the lifestyle you want to live, if you don’t act on that, then you can still be a member of one of those churches because you’ve never done anything that’s sinful.” It is a weird way to get around the issue, but that’s where a lot of Evangelicals come down now.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Burge.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 25: Hope for the Best, Expect the Worst

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/06/03

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about Election Day 2020.

*Interview conducted on October 26, 2020.*

Scott Jacobsen: Off tape, you said something. Was it an older Yiddish phrase. Okay, Jon, why did we come to you stating that particular quote?

Engel: Well, obviously, we’re talking about the election a week from tomorrow. And that’s Election Day already, this election is different than past elections in the United States because so many people are voting early. In fact, my plan: I have my ballot. I plan on, depending on the weather, one day this week. But Election Day is still Election Day and there’s still a lot of people who are going to vote on Election Day. And, the tradition is to stay up, watching TV to see who won. Although, again, with all the absentee ballots and voting by mail that’s going on with the chances; we don’t really know on election night. But why “hope for the best and expect the worst”? It’s because the “hope for the best part “comes from, obviously, just generally speaking, hoping for the best. But also there is reason from an objective viewpoint to feel pretty decent that Biden’s going to win. The polls are showing pretty well the early voting has been tilting democratic. There are a lot of constituencies like young people and African-Americans who seem to be voting in very large numbers, who tend to vote for Democrats.

So, that’s the hope for the best. And if I was being objective about it, there are a lot of people like me in this country who were absolutely traumatized four years ago. And I just couldn’t imagine that this election is going to go for Donald. I just couldn’t. And when I was watching the returns that night, when it looked like, “Yes, it looks like Trump could win.” I was floored when it looked like he was going to win. The horror of this was incredible. And I know some fellows.

In fact, yesterday, I was doing a Zoom presentation for a group in New Jersey. There were people telling me, “I’ve already ot it in my mind that Trump is going to win again.” And I was like, “Why?” And they were like, because if I don’t sort of prepare myself for this; I don’t know how I’m going to be able to take it. I never felt this way, again. Maybe, it’s different. I, recently, lived through a lot of elections. I’m 62 years old. My candidates have lost, which has happened a fair amount of the time. I felt terrible. I was upset. But I don’t think it would be anything like this. It was bad enough the first time for a couple of reasons. Number one, the idea that so many American people could say, “Yes, I like this. This looks good to me. People dying left, right and center of Covid,” but he wasn’t saying, “I wish we’d stop thinking about it.” That’s a fear in and of itself.

But there’s really more to it than that. It’s also that if he gets another term, when he’s like a couple of days after Election Day in 2016. I heard that the public and political commentator Bill Maher saying: From now on, the next four years, he says this is more talking about himself. He’s a fierce critic of Trump. He said, ‘I’m going to have to keep looking behind me because this guy lives for revenge.’ And he’s right. If Trump doesn’t have to think about more and more, ever running again, he will be unleashed to. And first thing he will do is go where every person he perceives as an enemy. He will fire William Barr. Who, believe it or not, he doesn’t think of the love of that sycophant as attorney general and may replace him with, God knows, Rudy Giuliani or somebody.

And the next thing we’re going to see is Barack Obama being perp walked in handcuffs into the FBI and this could really happen. So the stakes couldn’t possibly feel any higher at all. And so, I’m hoping for the best and even expect the worst part; I don’t know if I can even bring myself to do… Oh, by the way, do you have, like, a spare bedroom?

Jacobsen: Yes.

John: I’m just asking.

Jacobsen: Yes…

John: Because I may get the hell out of here, if Canada would take me.

Jacobsen: Bring your winter coat.

John: If Trump gets re-elected, I think, if he manages to hold on power, I’m not so certain about staying here. His continuing as president would be a matter of being re-elected or rather just a matter of finding a way to nullify the will of the people and to stay in office.

Jacobsen: Do you think Dave Chappelle is right, in his interview with David Letterman, where he states racism should be seen as a national security issue? The fact of reducing hate and tensions in the country as a matter of national security because of the threat to the nation-state called the United States. Is this something crucial to consider when walking to the voting booth?

John: Oh, yes, I think so, because people take a narrow view, in my opinion, of national security, of the phrase “national security.” What is the biggest national security threat facing the United States today? Right now, it’s climate change. And interestingly enough, who will tell you that? The Pentagon, the Department of Defense, the Joint Chiefs of Staff or the top Army generals, will tell you that the biggest security threat to the United States today is climate change. So I guess it is a threat. Think about this. The American Armed Forces is one of the most integrated institutions in our country. We have a large proportion of our armed forces that are African-American or Hispanic or Asian. And we have people in this country who are not citizens, who are serving, not in the United States, but our residents in the United States who are serving in our armed forces.

So something like racism, is that a threat to our security? You bet it is, and so is climate change. So people think that our national security is just about having a bigger army. And the truth of the matter is our national security pivots on a lot of other issues that are extremely important, not just the size of our army or the power of our army, as Bill Clinton used to say. But the point isn’t just the example of our power. But the power of our example and there are so many things that are intrinsic. People don’t realize: How do you get a big army as you want? But we also need alliances. We also need allies. And so, diplomacy is part of national security. There are so many things that are essential to us that are part of our national security that people aren’t necessarily looking at, that I think, really are threats existential threats to this country.

Jacobsen: Do you think Biden truly provides a solution to the problems created by Trump or the persistent long term issues in the United States, or do you think Biden provides more of a far better alternative to current President Trump further into four years? In the sense, it’s not an ideal situation. It’s more of a settling for a candidate because the alternative is grotesquely abhorrent to secularism, to human rights, and to science standards and respectability of the United States on the international stage.

John: That’s kind of a yes, and no. Sometimes, when I had discussions with friends who are progressive, they’re worried that Biden isn’t progressive enough and will institute systemic change. I understand where they’re coming from. But my analogy is: the house is on fire. We can talk about how we’re going to redecorate it after we put the fire out. So, yes, I think for a lot of people, part of it is just we have to stop the bleeding. We have to stop the destruction of our country and our democracy. And so I think that does appeal to a lot of people with regard to Biden, because he’s a normal person which would be nice. But also he’s obviously a decent human being.

Now, I think the Democratic Party has pushed somewhat to the left. And so, I think he will be more open. He’s talking about a trillion-dollar environmental policy or environmental injection into the country in order to fight climate change. I think that there will be some change. And I think what’s really needed in this country is systemic change. Republicans at this point are not even bothering with democracy. In fact, I heard Senator Mike Lee of Utah, Republican of Utah, said the other day, “Oh, we’re a constitutional republic. Democracy really doesn’t matter, which is enough.” I went to grade school in the United States of America and here in the United States Senate to say, “That is enough,” makes me fall off my seat. Biden will help to make those really systemic changes.

But at first, on his own, he barely can do anything. If Democrats don’t take the Senate, get the House and win the presidency, he really won’t be able to do much of anything. Except, again, stop the bleeding, which right now looks like something that’s at least somewhat of a positive outcome. But the answer, of course, to that is, I’m not sure, but I’m not too worried about him being too centrist in the middle of the road. I know he’s talking about reaching across the aisle. And still, what he’s talking about there, there are a lot of people in this country who just want to say, “Oh, can’t everybody get along sort of thing.” But I hope he realizes that the Republican Party, whatever’s left of it. If he does win, it is not going to be helping; it’s not going to be willing to work with him. And that’s what happened with Obama a little bit because, he watered down the Affordable Care Act in and of itself. Thinking, “All this will help me get some Republican votes because I’ll be more along the lines of what they want.” And in the end, they didn’t. None of them voted for it, anyway.

So, I think I’m cautiously optimistic that some change can be done. But I’m realistic to know that if the obstacles to change this country needs today are more a matter of the system rather than a matter of the individual. Joe Biden, he tends to be somewhat more centrist, is going to be the kind of obstacle to making the sort of changes that this country really needs in its foundation as much as just the arcane rules that much of what we still have in this country. So, like the Electoral College, this is getting too crazy. You get most votes, but you don’t win. But changing that will require changing the Constitution, which will mean that some voters in some states would have to say, “Yes, I’d rather have democracy than have sort of a system tilted in my favor.”

So I think that’s more of an issue than Biden himself. I don’t think Biden will be an obstacle to significant change. Especially since, he’s got his voter. I want to see these kinds of changes, and I think he will move along with that. But what he can accomplish, given the structure as it stands for me, is the bigger question.

Jacobsen: Jon, thanks so much for your time.

John: My pleasure, Scott. Take care now.

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2022-05-15

Ask Dr. P.B. 3 – History and History-Making: Public Prayers & Land Acknowledgements

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/05/27

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff has been a community organizer for more than 15 years. He has been active in Saanich municipal politics. He earned a PhD in Politics and International Studies from the University of Cambridge and two BAs from the University of Calgary in Political Science and International Relations, respectively. He is a Board Member of the Greater Victoria Placemaking Network. He owns and operates a research consultancy called The Idea Tree. He is a New Democrat, politically, and is the President of the Saanich-Gulf Islands NDP riding association. He founded OceansAsia as a marine conservation organization devoted to combating illegal fishing and wildlife crime. Here we talk about the recent research work of the British Columbia Humanist Association on prayers and land acknowledgements.

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Scott Douglas: Jacobsen: What were some of the numbers regarding prayers and land acknowledgements?

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff: I can run down those numbers. As I mentioned before, the BCHA Research Team was looking at 871 prayers delivered at the start of sessions of the BC Legislature from October 6, 2003, to February 12, 2019. We found that 42 of them included a single Indigenous word.

A vast majority of those were ‘sabaxsa’ which is a Gitxsan term, and it was used most often by the MLA’s from Stikine and Skeena, as well as ‘Hych’ka,’ which is a “thank you”-like term in SENĆOŦEN. These were almost all delivered BC NDP MLAs.

We had one sentence in an Indigenous language, one instance of several sentences, and then five entire prayers were delivered in Indigenous languages. It is noteworthy though that the prayers that were delivered completely in Indigenous languages were delivered by people who were guests of the BC legislature.

The way that the prayer works in the BC legislature is on a day-to-day basis, MLAs are invited to deliver a prayer of their own devising or a prayer off a sheet of sample prayers. But on days when a Speech from the Throne is being delivered, a member of the community is invited to deliver a prayer. On five occasions, these have been delivered by Indigenous leaders – three of these occasions were Chief Albert George, and the other two were prayers were delivered by Delphine Armstrong and Shirley Alphonse.

Overall, we found that about 5.6% of all prayers being in the legislation containing at least one word in an Indigenous language, and we did find that there’s been an increase over time. In the timeframe we studied, we noticed a gradual increase in Indigenous content, which is promising. Although, it’s still dismally low. And then the other aspect that we noticed was that there was a huge disparity between the use of indigenous content by political parties in the legislature.

Jacobsen: If you take the activism around equality in prayers and invocations, or not, if you take equality and human rights applications across the board, if you look at permissive tax exemptions in another case, or if you look at land acknowledgements as not merely symbolic to the Aboriginals throughout Canadian society, what is the hope for the impact with these? How will this develop in the 2020s?

Phelps Bondaroff: The research we’ve been doing on legislative prayer has already had an impact. We released the House of Prayers Report last year, and shortly thereafter members of the BC Legislature unanimously voted to amend their standing orders. So, daily routine business now begins with ‘prayers and reflections,’ whereas they previously began with prayers. This is a small terminological change, but it does have some impact.

We’re actually doing another study to look at whether changing the name of the standing order will actually impact the content. The reason we think it might be the case is because when you’re asked to deliver a prayer, even though you have the option of doing anything, e.g., you could read poetry, something from your favourite book, call for a moment of silence… But when you’re asked to deliver a prayer, you typically colour within the lines.

While we identified some totally secular statements – reading poetry, or songs, or thoughtful commentary that was not religious at all – but still the vast majority of MLAs still ended their prayers with the word ‘amen.’ Why? Because they felt constrained by the structure imposed upon them by being asked ‘to lead us in prayer’ by the Speaker.

So our research has already had an impact. Our hope is with this supplementary report is that it provides information to members of the legislature, but also to members of the community who might want there to be a territorial acknowledgement at the beginning of sessions of the BC legislature.

One notable change that we’ve seen occurred on March 23rd, 2020: the deputy speaker of the House did start the session with a territorial acknowledgement – he started by acknowledging that the BC Legislature is founded on the traditional Indigenous territories. To our knowledge, that was the first time this has been done, or at least it was the first time we have seen this being done, and we’ve looked at the beginning of every session since 2003. We don’t know if that’s going to be an ongoing change, or if it was because the deputy speaker just wanted to recognize the importance of being on Indigenous territory that one time.

Moving forward, I think the goal behind this research is to produce information that brings to light hidden practices that otherwise would be invisible. So, for example, when we started looking into prayer for the House of Prayer study, one of the reason why we started doing this was every time we talked to someone about prayer in the legislature, they would say: “Oh no, it’s super diverse. Lots of different groups are represented. We had a Jewish prayer a little while ago, and there was a Sikh prayer or a Muslim prayer.” We didn’t have enough knowledge or data to see whether that was actually the case – it was anecdotal.

When we crunched the numbers, we found that “No, the prayers are disproportionately religious.” And when we could identify their religion, they were disproportionately Christian. And so this told us what the actual practice is.

Our goal in this supplementary report is to highlight what’s going on in the BC Legislature, with a hope that more information – better information – will help encourage change.

Jacobsen: Why a territorial knowledge in the first place?

Phelps Bondaroff: That’s a great question. Ultimately, it’s not for you or I to say, right? We think it’s an option that could be considered. A lot of places that have meetings and gatherings will start with a territorial acknowledgement. It can be an important part of reconciliation if done properly. So that’s one of the recommendations in the report, which is to have the Legislature work with Indigenous stakeholders to develop protocols around a potential territorial acknowledgement, if Indigenous people wanted one.

The reason that you do a territorial acknowledgement is to show recognition and respect for Indigenous peoples. It recognizes the past and the present, and it establishes a basis for respect and recognition. This is important if you’re going to develop some healthy reciprocal relationships with different communities, right? Acknowledging past harms is important for reconciliation to happen. And this can be an important part of reconciliation if done in a meaningful way.

Jacobsen: Dr. Bondaroff, thank you so much for your time.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 24: Unions and Humanism on Labour Day

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/22

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about labor rights and Secular Humanism.

*Interview conducted on September 7, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, there are some – I wouldn’t call them – peripheral issues. It’s just not-covered-as-much issues because other things take up the news cycle, especially in the last few years.

So, there are labor rights. What are some issues that, maybe, some New Yorkers have gotten involved in and some other secular groups might want to consider in regards to labor rights as a secular issue?

Jonathan Engel: Today’s Labor Day in the United States. It’s a good day to talk about this. But of course, not that much, the labor movement and the participation in labor unions in this country have gone way down in the last 50 years at the same time that income inequality and wealth inequality has gone way up.

And I don’t think that that’s any coincidence. And New York City is kind of a labor town. There are labor unions. In New York City, a higher percentage of workers are unionized than in other parts of the country. My wife is a member of a union, proud member of the United Federation of Teachers (UFT), which has done quite a bit of good for her. And quite a bit of good for her and for its members.

New York City schools were supposed to open on September 9th. In terms of when the kids come back teachers go back tomorrow, but the kids are supposed to come back on Wednesday. And what happened was representatives of the UFT went and inspected the schools and came back to the mayor and said, “No, these schools are simply not ready in the age of COVID to be receiving kids.”

There are too many schools that don’t have plans in place for what happens to kids who test positive. There are too many schools that don’t have proper equipment, proper cleaning equipment or proper personal protective equipment for teachers and other school personnel. And therefore, they go back.

So now the kids are due to come in on September 21st in order to get schools more time to get the classrooms ready for kids and teachers. And that wouldn’t have happened without the UFT. That wouldn’t have happened without the labor union, because the city was just going to say, “Okay, that’s it.”

“Teachers go?”

“Yes, that’s it. This is when we’re starting and that’s it.”

And it was up to the union, the city, the Department of Education, they weren’t going in and looking at every school and saying, “Well, are we really ready for this?” They were just like, “Okay, the mayor wants to open up. So, we’re opening up.”

And it was the labor unions that went in and said, “No.” They had the clamp. They had the power to say, “Listen, we’re not going if we don’t do something to better prepare the schools for the kids and for the teachers, in terms of COVID. So, we’re not going if you don’t do that.

Only the union was going to do that. Only the union was going to step in and say, “We’re not coming back unless better steps are taken to protect our members.” Nobody else was going to do that. And of course, individual teachers would not have any clout because what’s one teacher, right?

But when you have thousands of teachers, all belonging to the United Federation of Teachers saying, “We’re not going until you fix this,” then all of a sudden there’s power. All of a sudden, management has no choice, but to negotiate with labor in order to find a common ground; so that they can allow the schools to reopen again.

But protecting the teacher’s health and not just teachers, I think of teachers because my wife’s a teacher, but it’s also the kids themselves.

And of course, the families or everybody you’ve come in contact with; it’s teacher. It’s administrators. It’s everybody in the building, a school building, but it’s also everybody when they go home to everybody else – who they come in contact with.

And the only people who were going to protect them, was the labor union, the United Federation of Teachers. They are the ones who went in and looked at the situation to see if it was ready, determined it wasn’t.

And then went back to the city and said, “We’re going to strike. If we’re not going, we’re going to strike.” And that’s every teacher in the city, right? You can’t have a little here and a little there. They’ll replace you. Every teacher in the city, we’re going to strike. If we don’t come to some accommodation, that gives us more time to make sure the schools will be ready in a safe way. For teachers, again, it’s a UFT, but for really everybody in the school.

Jacobsen: What about the individual who identifies as secular in some manner but who disagrees on the idea of unions? Any thoughts about that?

Engel: There’s no question that the unions have done much to shoot themselves in the foot, between mob infiltration of some unions, embezzlements, that was rampant in some unions. Featherbedding, racism has been endemic in certain unions, especially the trade unions for years.

So, I can understand. I can understand that people sometimes have negative views of unions. Back from the movie On the Waterfront, the negative views of unions. I can understand that. But hey, if you want a movie, why don’t you go look at Norma Rae? Those are just taking slices of what has gone on; I can understand why some people have negative views of unions.

And I think that all those things are correctable: the embezzlement, the mob infiltration, the feather bedding, things like that are all correctable. But bottom line stays the same, which is that with corporate power so strong in the world and in the United States in particular, they are the only vehicle for power, for the average person, for the average guy, for the average man, woman worker.

The only protection they’re going to get is from the union, because management is not going to look out for them and government being so under the thumb of big business; they’re not going to look out for the average workers.

So, they certainly haven’t been doing so for the last, I don’t know how many years. And so, yes, I can understand some negative views of unions. If somebody else has a better idea of how workers can even the playing field with corporations, I’d like to hear it, but I don’t know of any.

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you for your time.

Engel: Okay, Scott, thank you so much. And one more thing I want to add, I think I’ve mentioned it to you before, but just to show you that government’s not taking care of union members. Representative Eric Canter, who was representative from Virginia, he was a high up guy in the Republican Party.

He had a pretty high title among congressional Republicans and about five years ago or so; he put out a tweet on Labour Day celebrating small business owners and all they do for the country. And it’s like, “Listen, Hey, yo buddy, this is not Management Day. It’s Labour Day.”

But that was the best that a government official could do on that particular Labour Day, which is to say how honoured management is as opposed to labor.

So, again, I think that the only people who are going to stand up for rights of workers right now, and if you care about humanism, if you care about each individual person as having worth and value, their rights are only going to really be protected by unions.

So, thank you, Scott, and have a good week.

Jacobsen: Thank you. You too.

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2022-05-15

Ask Dr. P.B. 2 – Public Prayers: Inclusion, Exclusion, and Decolonization

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/05/26

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff has been a community organizer for more than 15 years. He has been active in Saanich municipal politics. He earned a PhD in Politics and International Studies from the University of Cambridge and two BAs from the University of Calgary in Political Science and International Relations, respectively. He is a Board Member of the Greater Victoria Placemaking Network. He owns and operates a research consultancy called The Idea Tree. He is a New Democrat, politically, and is the President of the Saanich-Gulf Islands NDP riding association. He founded OceansAsia as a marine conservation organization devoted to combating illegal fishing and wildlife crime. Here we talk about the recent research work of the British Columbia Humanist Association on prayers and the secondary/supplementary report to the House of Prayers report.

—

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we got a big prayer project for the non-religious [Laughing]. That’s a weird way to put it. It’s a sub-report dealing with decolonization regarding prayers. What was the entire purpose of the secondary report?

Not to say it’s less important, but to say it’s a significant enough hunk to build off another major report from the BCHA. What was the other report?

Dr. Teale Phelps-Bondaroff: Yes, the BCHA is describing this as a supplementary report. It supplements our bigger study, House of Prayers, which was a comprehensive analysis of all the prayers in the BC Legislature from October 6, 2003, to February 12, 2019.

In total, that study looked at 873 prayers that were delivered in the BC Legislature. We did quantitative analysis of those looking for different features like religiosity and analyses around who said what and when, looking for trends overall.

It extends arguments as to why we should abolish legislative prayer. A lot of the report builds on the analysis, which, basically, found the prayer were not representative of the population of British Columbia. This supplementary report flows directly from the House of Prayers study, wherein, we noticed a tiny number of prayers contained Indigenous language and content. We wanted to do a separate report that explored Indigenous content in BC Legislature prayers, and explored and contextualize the issue in more detail.

We thought it was a significant enough issue worthy of highlighting in its own report, and that’s the background of ‘Decolonizing Legislative Prayers.’

Jacobsen: What is the historical context around colonization linked to religiosity and the rejection of Indigenous claims necessitating this form of human rights and justice reportage?

Phelps Bondaroff: So, we are in a time of truth and reconciliation, where we’re trying to address some of the historical wrongs of colonialism in Canada, and tied closely with that is religion. So, you look at, for example, the truth and reconciliation reports that came out from the Truth and Reconciliation Commission, and they note that Christian teachings were fundamental aspect of residential schools, and that religion was used as a weapon in this overarching attempt to genocide Indigenous peoples. And so, a lot of times you can see religion and colonialism go hand-in-hand.

That’s one of the aspects that you see with legislative prayer. Likewise, we also have the historical exclusion of Indigenous people from the BC legislature. So, one of the aspects we highlight in the report is not the content and prayers, but also the participation of Indigenous people in the BC legislature.

A lot of folks may not know this, but up until 1949 Indigenous people were not allowed to vote in British Columbia elections, and even more worrisome was Indigenous peoples were not able to vote in federal elections until 1950, but many places didn’t receive ballot boxes until 1962!

So, you have an ongoing history of exclusion of Indigenous peoples, and that’s often reflected in low voter turnout. It is one of many reasons for Indigenous folks not to participate in electoral politics, which is a separate issues and debate.

In the BC Legislature, there was only one Indigenous MLA prior to 2005, from what we could find. This was Frank Arthur Calder. And since then, we’ve had an additional five individuals with Indigenous ancestry.

Jacobsen: What is decolonization?

Phelps Bondaroff: Decolonization does mean different things to different people, but, overall, it’s an attempt to repudiate concepts and practices that were used to justify European sovereignty over Indigenous peoples and lands. And to break down the structures that were involved in colonialism. It recognizes that colonialism was a harm – that it was a significant harm to cultures and peoples – and it tries to rectify the harm.

Jacobsen: What if individuals look at a report, analyze the contents, look at the larger context of decolonization, then take this in a theoretical frame of mind and simply say, “Who cares?”? In other words, why should people care from those who would be the strongest detractors from among those who are in it, see it as a form of reconciliation rather than a trivial signaling?

Phelps Bondaroff: That’s a good point. We will to back up a few steps before I answer that question. One of the things that motivated this report were some of the broader recommendations around prayer in the BC legislature. However, many of the other reasons why we thought it needed to be its own separate report is that territorial acknowledgements and prayers are two totally separate issues.

So, when we were submitting articles flowing from our House of Prayer study to several journals, we found that some of the comments we were receiving was that including a territorial acknowledgement in the BC Legislature was one of our recommendations, but that territorial acknowledgements were adjacent to the question of prayer because they could start a session BC legislature with a territorial acknowledgement and a prayer.

We had three recommendations in our original report: 1) abolish legislative prayer, 2) replace it with a minute of silence or quiet reflection, and 3) include a territorial acknowledgement. The territorial acknowledgment again is a separate question, so, we wanted to look at it separately.

Our chief recommendation was that if there was a desire amongst Indigenous people in British Columbia to have a territorial acknowledgement at the beginning of the sessions at the BC legislature, that any protocols and procedures around the acknowledgement be established working with Indigenous communities and stakeholders. It’s not for the BCHA or the BC legislature to say how the protocols around that should work. Instead, it should be up to the large Indigenous community in British Columbia to discuss whether they want to have a territorial acknowledgement or not.

The point that you raised is a good one insofar as, sometimes, here in Victoria, we start a lot of meetings with territorial acknowledgements. But it can become pro forma, people going through the motions and not understanding the purpose of a territorial acknowledgement, except for checking a box on the “to do” list – with the agenda as it were. We wouldn’t want that either. And I don’t think a lot of Indigenous folks would want that – if at all, they would likely want a meaningful statement.

But as you pointed out in your question – obviously, symbolic things, like starting sessions at the BC legislature, are less important than substantial changes that impact people’s lives on a daily basis. Starting a session of the BC Legislature with a territorial acknowledgement would be a symbolic change, a way of recognizing Indigenous peoples, but, at the same time, we need to take active and tangible steps to rectify past harms and dismantle ongoing structures that continue to perpetuate these harms.

So, I can also see why if we were to ask Indigenous folks if they wanted to do this, a significant percentage might say, “No,” because they would prefer more substantial changes. I think that’s a respectable position to take as well.

Our goal overall in releasing this supplemental report was to provide information to people, so they could use that if they chose to push for a territorial acknowledgement and also to inform the government of the current situation. The current situation is that Indigenous content is much underrepresented in prayer in the BC legislature.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Phelps Bondaroff.

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2022-05-15

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 9 – When Rain is Law and Justice is Dry Land

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/05/03

Omar Shakir, J.D., M.A. works as the Israel and Palestine Director for Human Rights Watch. He investigates a variety of human rights abuses within the occupied Palestinian territories/Occupied Palestinian Territories or oPt/OPT (Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and Israel. He earned a B.A. in International Relations from Stanford University, an M.A. in Arab Studies from Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Affairs, and a J.D. from Stanford Law School. He is bilingual in Arabic and English. Previously, he was a Bertha Fellow at the Center for Constitutional Rights with a focus on U.S. counterterrorism policies, which included legal representation of Guantanamo detainees. He was the Arthur R. and Barbara D. Finberg Fellow (2013-2014) for Human Rights Watch with investigations, during this time, into the human rights violations in Egypt, e.g., the Rab’a massacre, which is one of the largest killings of protestors in a single day ever. Also, he was a Fulbright Scholar in Syria.

Here we continue with the 9th part in our series of conversations with coverage in the middle of middle of May, 2020, to the middle of July, 2020, for the Israeli-Palestinian issue. With the deportation of Shakir, this follows in line with state actions against others, including Amnesty International staff member Laith Abu Zeyad when attempting to see his mother dying from cancer (Amnesty International, 2019a; Zeyad, 2019; Amnesty International, 2020), United States Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib and United States Congresswoman Ilhan Omar who were subject to being barred from entry (Romo, 2019), Professor Noam Chomsky who was denied entry (Hass, 2010), and Dr. Norman Finkelstein who was deported in the past (Silverstein, 2008). Shakir commented in an opinion piece:

Now, based on the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court and the actions of the Member State of the United Nations, Israel, he, for this session, works from Amman, Jordan.

*Interview conducted on July 23, 2020. The previous interview conducted on May 13, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With regards to Israeli politics, what is happening there as to the human rights violations happening on the ground?

Omar Shakir: The Israeli coalition government was formed earlier this year (Katkov, 2020). The government is in place with ministers across the board. They have begun to implement policies. Of course, much of the attention, particularly around July 1^st, was around the prospect of whether the Israeli government would annex additional parts of the West Bank (Federman, 2020a). At the same time, the COVID-19 crises returned with a vengeance with an uptick in cases in Israel and in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (Goldenberg, 2020). Much of the focus has been on the government’s response to the public health crisis, as well as what it means in terms of schools, education, etc., across the country, as well as travel (Zion, 2020).

So, much of the attention has been there. At the same time, the Israeli government has been debating to pass the budget. If not passed, and if certain events transpire, it could trigger fourth elections, potentially even later this year. That’s really been where most of the public discourse has been focused.

Jacobsen: What about Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, West Bank?

Shakir: Yes, I think also we have seen, in particular, in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, that the COVID crisis has been quite significant (Akram & Krauss, 2020). In the West Bank, it has been centered around Hebron (Goldenberg, 2020). As a result, the Palestinian Authority has taken a series of measures. They imposed closures in much of the parts of the West Bank where they manage affairs (Associated Press, 2020a). They have also put in place curfews and restrictions on movement. That’s really taken much of the public conversation. We also have continued to see some of the same abuses take place by the Palestinian Authority and the Hamas authorities (Daraghmeh, 2020; Toameh, 2020). In the West Bank, for example, in June, a journalist was detained after a video he had produced, a political video, on the sale of watermelons in Tulkarm, which is the town where he is from, was posted to a Facebook page considered critical of the Palestinian Authority (Committee to Protect Journalists, 2020; Committee to Protect Journalists, 2019).

He spent several weeks in detention and was released on bail earlier this month, earlier in July. We’ve seen other examples in the West Bank. In the Gaza Strip, you continue to have, as of now, two Palestinians detained for participating in a Zoom chat with Israelis, which took place several months ago (United Nations Human Rights Council, 2020).[1] Of course, this is in addition to Israeli government abuses in these areas.

Jacobsen: With some of the coronavirus pandemic focus for many, many governments around the world now, it can reduce the amount of coverage on various relations, international relations. So, some of the major players with regards to the players you’re centrally covering, including European allies of Israel as well as America and other North American allies. What are some of the updates on the international edge of things regarding human rights violation or support of them?

Shakir: I think much of the focus on the international community has been on the prospect of annexation (Associated Press, 2020b; Heller, 2020a; Cook, 2020; Federman, 2020b). You saw many governments in June, early July, issue statements, sometimes speaking directly to Israeli audiences, as to what annexation might mean for their bilateral or multilateral relationships. We have seen the EU, for example, and some European states refer to consequences for Israel if they were to proceed in that direction (Heller, 2020a; Krauss, 2020a). German officials were in Israel in June (Krauss, 2020b) and the UK Prime Minister Boris Johnson wrote an article in a Hebrew language newspaper making pitches around annexation (Heller, 2020a; Halbfinger, 2020a). So, much of the international community’s focus has been around annexation given the July 1^st date, the date the Israeli government could, if it chose to, annex part of the West Bank. With the International Criminal Court, we have to await a decision by the pre-trial chamber about whether or not they will confirm jurisdiction over the State of Palestine, a ruling that would allow the Prosecutor to proceeding with a formal investigation (Rubeo & Baroud, 2020; TOI Staff, 2020a). We continue to see statements at the UN regarding developments on the ground (United Nations Human Rights Council, 2020).

Jacobsen: What have been any indications or open statements of Fatou Bensouda as this process has been going forward with the International Criminal Court?

Shakir: The prosecutor has made her position clear (Corder, 2020). The elements for a formal investigation have been met (Middle East Monitor, 2020). Her office put forward a submission for the pre-trial chamber that made clear their position that there is jurisdiction (International Criminal Court, 2020a; International Criminal Court, 2020b). In December (2019), in announcing that her preliminary inquiry had concluded, she said there was reasonable basis to believe that serious crimes committed in the State of Palestine and therefore to proceed with a formal investigation (Carvosso, 2020).

Jacobsen: In other contexts, there have been defamation campaigns against individuals with status and can actually harm the image of Israel as a state, not necessarily the people but as a state. What could be some potential backlash given historical precedent in particular cases towards individuals such as the Chief Prosecutor?

Shakir: Already, the United States and the Israeli government have unleashed an array of attacks against the International Criminal Court (Ravid, 2020). There have been restrictions by the United States, for example, on travel to the U.S. by senior ICC officials (Ibid.). An Executive Order was issued by President Trump that put in place consequences of those who work on investigations that touch on the United States or its partners, including Israel. There have also been bellicose statements coming from the Israeli government, including threats against the ICC (MEE and agencies, 2020). We have also seen a number of states across Europe and the world really defend the ICC as an important institution in the fight against impunity and highlighting the importance of its independence and neutrality (Euractiv, 2020). I think it has been very much a concern in the international community and, certainly, should a decision be made to confirm jurisdiction, it can be expected that those attacks will escalate.

Jacobsen: Now, with regards to some more specific issues, there was a list of Knesset members who gave a statement. These were members of the Joint List. Was it the Yesh Din legal opinion (Yesh Din, 2020)?

Shakir: Yes, Yesh Din.

Jacobsen: So, what were those statements? Why did those particular Knesset members take part in this?

Shakir: Yesh Din is an Israeli human rights group that has been working in the West Bank for 15 years now on a range of issues involving land confiscation, settler violence, etc. Their legal advisor, Michael Sfard, who – full disclosure – also represented me in my legal challenge against the Israeli government’s decision to deport me (Kershner, 2019), wrote a legal opinion finding the Israeli government is carrying out the crime of apartheid in the West Bank (Iraqi, 2020; Sfard, 2020a). The opinion looked at particular serious abuses and the kind of regime of systematic discrimination in place in the West Bank, as well as the intent of Israeli officials (Sfard, 2020b). Several Knesset members, particular members of the Joint List, one of the larger parties in Israel representing a significant percent of the Palestinian population in Israel, but which also has a Jewish MK and has attracted a number of votes from Jewish Israelis, read excerpts of the legal opinion in the Knesset this week. In so doing, they highlighted their significant concern about the effectively permanent occupation and the systematic repression of Palestinians.

Jacobsen: Haaretz has reported on some suicide cases (Shehada, 2020). This is in Palestine (Sharir & Gontarz, 2020). What were some of those cases, not necessarily in particular but, as general trends based on the lives that are being forced on them?

Shakir: There, certainly, have been reports on an uptick in suicides (Shehada, 2020; Sharir & Gontarz, 2020). It is always difficult to speculate why or what leads someone to take their own life. Certainly, when you look at the situation in Gaza, many people feel a lack of hope. Gaza, for the last 13 years, has been facing a closure (Al Mezan, 2020a; Al Mezan, 2020b), a policy by the Israeli government, supported for much of this time by the Egyptian government (Chick, 2010; Middle Est Policy Council, n.d.), of caging the 2,000,000 people of Gaza in, of turning Gaza into an open-air prison, where there is a generalized travel ban robbing 2,000,000 Palestinians of their free movement outside of narrow exceptions (OCHA, 2021). That closure has affected the entry and exit of goods and this has had a drastic effect on the economy (United Nations: The Question of Palestine, 2016). Eighty percent of the population depend on financial support from international organizations (Asharq Al Awsat, 2018). Young people face increasingly high unemployment rates of well over 50% (UNCTAD, 2019).

Where you have significant parts of the population who have few opportunities, you also have a repressive Hamas government there that is quashing dissent (Daraghmeh, 2018). So in a 25 x 7 mile or 45 by 11 kilometre area, you have 2,000,000 people locked into a dire economic situation, few opportunities, frequent power cuts, the vast majority of water is unfit for human consumption (Anera, 2020). With all of these things going on, you have seen a number of people who have decided to take their own life (Shehada, 2020; Sharir & Gontarz, 2020). Each situation is different, but, certainly, the overall situation of Gaza is vital context.

Jacobsen: What about cases that exemplify this, not necessarily direct deportation cases such as yours, but those of Laith Abu Zeyad (Shakir, 2020; Amnesty International, 2020) who has had a travel ban imposed on him since October of last year (2019)?

Shakir: Absolutely, one doesn’t realize how important the freedom of movement is until it is taken away from you. The ability to travel to the next town, visit family, to go on vacation, to study abroad, etc. I think some people have experienced a taste of this amid COVID closures, but it pales in comparison to the daily reality for millions of Palestinians (Arab News, 2020; Kenny, 2020). Laith Abu Zeyad is a human rights defender, a colleague, a representative of Amnesty International who received a travel ban by Israel for undisclosed security reasons. He lives about 3 kilometres away from a hospital in Jerusalem, where his mother was receiving cancer treatment. He sought a permit to be by her side. She died in December, a couple months after the travel ban was imposed. He was also denied the ability to head to Jordan, which is the only outlet for Palestinians in the West Bank if they want to travel abroad unless they receive a rare permit to use Israel’s Ben-Gurion Airport. He missed a relative’s funeral in Amman. This is a human rights defender for one of the world’s most prominent human rights organizations, Amnesty International (Zeyad, 2020). It gives a window into some of the restrictions many Palestinians face.

Jacobsen: Back to Israel with a particular focus on Israeli politics, what is the status of the Netanyahu and Gantz alliance (Halbfinger, 2020b)?

Shakir: It is a day-to-day process that varies. It was never, certainly, an alliance in which there was much love lost between the two main protagonists (Associated Free Press, 2020). Gantz said he joined to fight the coronavirus (Mualem, 2020a). There are some differences of policies on several issues. Reports in the Israeli press, from July 22^nd, indicated that Netanyahu was contemplating early elections (TOI Staff, 2020b). There’s a context now, discussions over the budget (Scheer, 2020). There have been some disagreements around responses to the COVID crisis, annexation (Williams, 2020; Heller, 2020b; Heller & Williams, 2020; Reuters Staff, 2020a). In any coalition, there are disagreements and it is unclear what will transpire, but, in the meantime, disagreements between the two main coalition partners will remain a near-daily fixture.

Jacobsen: With respect to May of 2020, into the current period, late July, what have been some of the updates on recent criminal proceedings for Benjamin Netanyahu, Bibi (Lubell, 2020; Reuters Staff, 2020b; Lubell, 2020)?

Shakir: There have been several preliminary hearings on the case. The most recent one set a schedule for further hearings (Reuters Staff, 2020b). The evidentiary part of the proceedings will not really get started before January 2021 (TOI Staff, 2020c). The hearings thus far have been very preliminary, formally kicking off the process. It is likely that the heart of the proceedings will take place next year.

Jacobsen: Now, what do you think are going to be some of these processes moving forward regarding the legal context for Benjamin Netanyahu? How do you think this might impact, based on the facts that we have on the ground, the tenuous nature of this Gantz and Netanyahu political alliance?

Shakir: I think there still remains a lot to be seen. Benjamin Netanyahu stands as the longest serving Israeli prime minister (BBC News, 2020a; BBC News, 2020b). It is unprecedented for a prime minister under indictment to remain in power. Certainly, Netanyahu’s fate has been at the center of Israel’s political instability that we’ve seen over the last year and a half (OHCHR, 2020a). It is difficult to prognosticate how things might change. Netanyahu still seems quite strong in the polls (Mualem, 2020b). Meanwhile, Benny Gantz has dropped in the polls with the dissolution of the Blue & White Party (Caspit, 2020). There aren’t many challengers that have naturally emerged (Ferber, 2020). It seems we are stuck with this reality, probably, for some time, even if there are elections. It is difficult to see a prospect for a different trajectory.

Jacobsen: With the focus of the international community and the regional community on both coronavirus and the prospects for this full-blown annexation, particularly on the West Bank, I want to touch on one thing in particular. How much would be projected, the West Bank, outright annexed?

Shakir: There have been many different proposals floated. As much as there have been discussions about annexation (Krauss, 2020c), the details have not been laid out. According to some press reports, they have not been discussed at the senior governmental level. I would say: at one end of the spectrum, annexation could encompass everywhere encompassed by the Trump Plan (Lederer, 2020), up to 30% of the West Bank (Heller, 2020a), including the Jordan Valley and much of the areas where settlements lie or areas under the control of settlements, to, on the other end, a more symbolic annexation, which would apply to some of the settlements closer to the Green Line (Bateman, 2020) that are larger and more well-established as settlement blocks as they are sometimes referred to as. I think that’s part of the internal conversation, the scale of annexation. While this was on the front of everyone’s minds around July 1, amid the uptick of corona cases and other global developments, it has sort of fallen out of the discussion. I think a lot remains to be seen as to what will take place and when.

Jacobsen: This cybercrime law (Kuttab, 2020), how is this limiting Palestinian freedom of expression in particular?

Shakir: Palestinians have had for a couple of years a law, a cybercrime law, that includes many restrictions on free expression (Civicus, 2020). It is important to note that many of parts of the cybercrime law were already in the Palestinian Penal Code. There were already laws, for example, that made it illegal to insult “higher authorities,” or otherwise imposed criminal sentences based on peaceful free speech (Human Rights Watch, 2016). The cybercrime law clarified that some of these provisions also applied to online speech (7amleh – Arab Center for Social Media Advancement, 2018). We have seen some of the provisions applied to, for example, criticism on Facebook (Nofal, 2020; Fatafta, 2020). According to PA statistics given to Human Rights Watch, in 2018, 815 people were detained under the cybercrime law (Human Rights Watch, 2019). So, certainly, the cybercrime law gives additional tools to a government that has a systematic practice of arbitrary detaining critics and opponents (Human Rights Watch, 2018).

Jacobsen: What is the political stability in each portion of Palestinian territory?

Shakir: It is difficult to assess that. Governments that look unstable have a way of hanging on. Certainly, the situation in Gaza is tense with closure, but it has been 13 years without major change since 2007 (OHCHR, 2020b). In the West Bank, there’s certainly a lot of questions that annexation has brought to the fore about the future of the Palestinian Authority (Rahman, 2020). We have already seen security coordination between the Israeli government and the Palestinian Authority decrease significantly, if not stop altogether, amid talk of annexation (OCHA, 2020). I think there’s a lot hinging on what happens to annexation, as well the future of Mahmoud Abbas, the President of the Palestinian Authority. Those two things could trigger things changing quickly.

Jacobsen: A lot of commentary has focused on the death knell or the outright death of the two-State solution. Some have been claiming that it has been dead for a long time and the Trump-Kushner plan merely made it more explicit. What are some of the commentaries happening on the ground now among either political elites or ordinary people, on either side of the territories?

Shakir: One sign of someone who has spent a lot of time on the ground in Israel and Palestine is that they focus on the reality on the ground and not their preferred solution. Whatever one might prefer as a solution, we have in effect a one-state reality on the ground (Beinart, 2020), where the Israeli government is the dominant power inside the Green Line and throughout the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and the Gaza Strip, and systematically represses Palestinians and discriminates against them in favour of Jewish Israelis (Human Rights Watch, 2020). For most people on the ground, the question is about how you get beyond this discriminatory reality today and force a change in the status quo. Given this context, discussions around solutions feel academic and a bit far removed. That has been in certain quarters, in particular in the United States among political elites, more conversation on the one-State/two-State solution triggered in part by annexation, but also by a piece written by Peter Beinart (Ibid.), an American Jewish thinker and academic, earlier this month that touched on his personal shift of opinion towards a one-state solution founded on equality for all people living in Israel and Palestine. For Beinart and others, the concern animating them is to move beyond the current ugly reality.

Jacobsen: The oldest human rights issue is the Israel-Palestine conflict. With regards to the foundation of the United Nations, so, if this annexation goes full bore, what does this state about the efficacy the legitimacy of an international rights based order?

Shakir: There are many other longstanding conflicts out there that date back to the end of WWII and the post-colonial moment. But I think annexation should trigger change in the international community’s approach here. It is quite clear what annexation means in terms of international law. A move towards annexation wouldn’t change the reality of occupation or the protections that Palestinians enjoy under the law of occupation. But it should put to rest the notion that Israel considers its occupation temporary (Shafir, 2017). It is fully intent on ruling in perpetuity Palestinians and depriving them of their fundamental rights. So, it should trigger a shift in the international community’s approach.

Jacobsen: Also, in late June, Belgian and Dutch parliaments adopted motions to look at various measures that could be taken on the premise of Israel annexing Palestinian territory (Ahren, 2020). How is this proceeding along the lines of taking real accountability measures, nation by nation, if annexation moves forward?

Shakir: It is long overdue. I think Israel has maintained for years now a discriminatory system against Palestinians and committed serious abuses. It is beyond time for the international community to take action and hold Israel accountable. Those measures shouldn’t turn on annexation. Annexation may or may not change the reality on the ground. In East Jerusalem, which has been annexed for more than 50+ years, you have separate and unequal rule for decades over Palestinians, who face many of the same abuses as they face elsewhere in the West Bank. The focus should be on the current reality on the ground. Annexation may make things worse, but things are quite dire as we speak. It is encouraging to see movement in some countries towards accountability. More is needed.

Jacobsen: Last question for this particular session for July, should there be any focus to documents or reports that might be coming out of Human Rights Watch?

Shakir: We’re working on research on a range of issues. I will happily discuss those when they’re out. But I suspect that you’ll be hearing from us in the coming weeks and months with some pretty significant reports. I did neglect to mention one thing in response to one of your earlier questions, which I wanted to add before we conclude. There have been several examples in recent weeks of killings of Palestinians by Israeli security forces that have received significant attention because they are emblematic of the systematic pattern of excessive force by Israeli security services against Palestinians. Two examples in particular have received significant attention. One is the killing of Eyad Hallaq, a Palestinian man with disabilities who was gunned down in Jerusalem in circumstances that, certainly, suggest that he did not pose any sort of imminent threat to life or serious bodily injury to officers (Hasson, Khoury, & Breiner, 2020). The police acknowledged that he did not have a weapon and did not pose a threat at the time. Similarly, a Palestinian man, Ahmad Erekat, was shot and killed at a checkpoint in the West Bank on the weekend of his sister’s wedding (Reuters Staff, 2020c). His car crashed into a checkpoint. He emerged from the vehicle with his hands up as video evidence showed. Again, in circumstances in which he did not appear to pose an imminent threat to the lives of the officers, he was gunned to death and died there. These cases are two of many that take place on a regular basis, where Palestinians are gunned down and killed when Israeli forces open fire on Palestinians in circumstances in which they do not pose an imminent threat to life and serious bodily injury, which is the standard in international human rights law.

Jacobsen: Omar, as always, thank you.

Shakir: Thanks, Scott!

Previous Sessions (Chronological Order)

Interview with Omar Shakir – Israel and Palestine Director, Human Rights Watch (Middle East and North Africa Division)

HRW Israel and Palestine (MENA) Director on Systematic Methodology and Universal Vision

Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine) on Common Rights and Law Violations

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 1 – Recent Events

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 2 – Demolitions

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 3 – November-December: Deportation from Tel Aviv, Israel for Human Rights Watch Israel and Palestine Director

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 4 – Uninhabitable: The Viability of Gaza Strip’s 2020 Unlivability

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 5 – The Trump Peace Plan: Is This the “The Deal of the Century,” or Not?

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 6 – Tripartite Partition: The Israeli Elections, the International Criminal Court (ICC), and SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 7 – New Heights to the Plight and the Fight: Covid-19, Hegemony, Restrictions, and Rights

Addenda

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) Addendum: Some History and Contextualization of Rights

Other Resources Internal to Canadian Atheist

Interview with Dr. Norman Finkelstein on Gaza Now

Extensive Interview with Gideon Levy

Interview with Musa Abu Hashash – Field Researcher (Hebron District), B’Tselem

Interview with Gideon Levy – Columnist, Haaretz

Interview with Dr. Usama Antar – Independent Political Analyst (Gaza Strip, Palestine)

Interview with Wesam Ahmad – Representative, Al-Haq (Independent Palestinian Human Rights Organization)

Extensive Interview with Professor Richard Falk – Fmr. (5th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with Professor John Dugard – Fmr. (4th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with S. Michael Lynk – (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Conversation with John Dugard, Richard Falk, and S. Michael Lynk on the Role of the Special Rapporteur, and the International Criminal Court & Jurisdiction

To resolve the Palestinian question we need to end colonialism

Trump’s Colonial Solution to the Question of Palestine Threatens the Foundations of International Law

Dr. Norman Finkelstein on the International Criminal Court

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Footnotes

[1] “Report of the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967*” or A/HRC/44/60 stated:

United Nations Human Rights Council. (2020).

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2022-05-15

Ask Faye 11: Bucket Lists to Fill With Flights

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/22

Faye Girsh is the Founder and the Past President of the Hemlock Society of San Diego. She was the President of the National Hemlock Society (Defunct) and the World Federation of RTD Societies (Extant). Currently, she is on the Advisory Board of the Final Exit Network and the Euthanasia Research and Guidance Organization. Here we talk about bucket lists.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Getting what we want out of life comes naturally clipped to the wants of others, some never even get what they need out of life, while most possible people never had one.

North Americans use the phrase “Bucket List” to refer to the wants out of life. A complete itemized inventory of ‘what one wants out of life.’ For those with terminal illnesses, these can become the most important parts of the final journey.

Do you note any consistencies in the bucket lists of individuals pursuing a rational suicide in the light of a terminal illness?

Faye Girsh: I don’t know if I “pursue” rational suicide. I may be content to die “naturally” or with good hospice care, or inhaling Nitrogen, if it comes to that. My “bucket list” includes a trip to Pakistan and fun, enriching things like that.

And, I guess I would add somewhere that I do not want a prolonged and difficult death and, especially, I do not want to lose my marbles with a stroke or one of those horrible dementias. But it’s easier to control my Pakistan trip (which isn’t too easy these days) than how my death will be.

I am glad to have a few options but mostly it’s out of my hands, except maybe to shorten the ending by my own hand or use some very restrictive legal means. I should be more of an optimist about that, having worked in this field for 30+ years but I mostly see death happening to people. If they pursue their bucket list vigorously enough what happens at the end will not be so bad.

Jacobsen: If you have seen some, what have been some of the more touching items on the list?

Girsh: I am lucky to have had love, two fulfilling careers (as a psychologist and then in the right to die movement), enough money to not worry about it, wonderful children (whom I hardly ever see), friends, and — my special enrichment — travel.

I have arranged to live in Japan, Egypt, China, London and visited, in some depth, about 150 countries. One reason to keep on living is to visit more places and learn their cultures. If I could magically learn Chinese and Arabic, life would be even better. I am 88 next month and have no complaints about how my life is going, or went, and am not ready to give it up yet.

Jacobsen: You’re in retirement now. What would you recommend people consider getting done while in young adulthood and in middle age to avoid some obvious regrets? When six feet under, the grass won’t care much for the silence, anyhow, or the ‘losses’.

Girsh: Everyone has a passion. I don’t regret not learning the cello or writing poetry but I am so grateful that I had the determination to travel. I might join the foreign service the next time around but, short of not having done that, I am happy with the decisions I made.

Being in the right to die movement for the past 30+ years has been stimulating and rewarding. Though the pace seemed glacial it is amazing to see the progress in this time — and to realize how much there is left to do and how many bad deaths there still are.

Courage and perseverance are qualities needed to move the needle. I am grateful for my colleagues around the world who have demonstrated those characteristics, especially Derek Humphry (founder of the Hemlock Society) and Jack Kevorkian, of whom I was a great admirer.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Faye.

Girsh: Thanks, Scott, for your thoughtful and provocative questions.

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2022-05-15

Ask Dr. P.B. 1 – Religious Privilege in Practice in Canada: Municipal Prayers & Permissive Tax Exemptions

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/10/10

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff has been a community organizer for more than 15 years. He has been active in Saanich municipal politics. He earned a PhD in Politics and International Studies from the University of Cambridge and two BAs from the University of Calgary in Political Science and International Relations, respectively. He is a Board Member of the Greater Victoria Placemaking Network. He owns and operates a research consultancy called The Idea Tree. He is a New Democrat, politically, and is the President of the Saanich-Gulf Islands NDP riding association. He founded OceansAsia as a marine conservation organization devoted to combating illegal fishing and wildlife crime. Here we talk about the recent research work of the British Columbia Humanist Association.

—

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are you doing in general terms now? How are you progressing through each of them?

Dr. Teale Phelps Bondaroff: I thought I would talk about some of the research the BC Humanist Association is working on now.

The research team is working on two separate areas of focus. One is tax exemptions for places of worship, and the other looks at legislative prayer.

Our work on legislative prayer has two broad areas: prayer in municipal council meetings and prayer in the BC Legislature. [Ed. See interview with Ranil Prasad, “Interview with Ranil Prasad on Municipal Prayers.”]

In 2015, in the Saguenay case, the Canadian Supreme Court ruled that prayers in municipal councils were unconstitutional. This practice represented an unconstitutional violation of the separation of religion and government. Prayer in this context privileged some views over others. It excluded many individuals, and fundamentally, it violated the state’s duty to religious neutrality.

That decision was really critical. It said, “You cannot start a municipal council meeting with a prayer.” Last summer, the BCHA research team did a survey of every municipality in British Columbia to see if they were in compliance with Saguenay, 23 were not in compliance – they were starting the inaugural sessions with a prayer. Look for a report on this research coming out soon.

Now, the research team is looking at municipal prayers across the country. We have already encountered a number of municipalities that start regular sessions with prayer. This is something we didn’t find this in B.C.

Our research team looked at the top 50 municipalities in each province (by population) and we are now looking at the more than 3,000 municipalities in Canada, all to see which ones are following the Saguenay decision. We have already completed Manitoba and are working through Ontario. We decided to start on these provinces as our preliminary survey of the first 50 municipalities identified a significant number that were not in compliance.

The reason this work is important is because the court decision is robust and well-argued. However, if it is not followed, the decision is less impactful on people’s lives. Our goal is to identify municipalities violating the law and remind them they should not start their sessions with a prayer, and monitor them to see if they comply with the ruling.

Our other work on legislative prayer is in the B.C. Legislature. We have been studying this issue for a number of years. We started looking at prayers in the B.C. Legislature going back to 2003 [as part of the House of Prayers Report and accompanying study]. We have been analyzing data and releasing a lot of research on our findings.

We have the original House of Prayer Report, this looks at prayers in the BC Legislature in a comprehensive +130-page document.

This summer we released a supplement to this report that specifically considered Indigenous content in prayers in the BC Legislature and explored the possibility of starting sittings of the B.C. Legislative Assembly with a territorial acknowledgement – our Decolonizing Prayer report.

We are also planning on looking at the history of legislative prayer in British Columbia, tracking how the processes has changed over time and what caused changes to occur. This project is currently on pause until the legislative library opens up again.

We also just submitted a draft of a book chapter. This piece is an update of the House of Prayers study, and it looks at prayers since the B.C. Legislature changed its policies.

One outcome of the House of Prayer’s report (and the broader review of legislative prayer conducted by the Office of the Clerk) was that the procedures around prayers in the BC Legislature have changed. In November 2019 the practice changed so that now daily sittings begin with ‘prayers and reflections’ rather than just ‘prayers,’ and the list of sample prayers provided to MLAs has been updated.

Our book chapter looks at how these changes have impacted the content, structure, and religiosity of prayers delivered in the BC Legislature. In other words, we wanted to determine the extent to which changing the name of the standing order changed the content of the prayers.

The assumption is that there will be some small change, because if you are asked to deliver a prayer, then you’re more likely to give one. It could be secular. You could read poetry or read an inspirational quote, but because you were asked to deliver a prayer, you are much more likely to adopt some kind of prayer-like structure, at the very least. And we saw this in our previous work, where even when an MLA was reading a poem or delivering an otherwise secular statement, the MLA was still ending the prayer or statement in “Amen.” So we thought that the procedural changes from prayers to ‘prayers and reflections’ would encourage people to be more expansive in their acknowledgements, less likely to adopt a religious structure, and perhaps less likely to deliver a prayer. This chapter is currently being reviewed.

The BCHA has yet another piece of research out on legislative prayer, and this one is a peer reviewed article in the Journal of Secularism and Nonreligion that I wrote with Ian Bushfield, our Executive Director, This article explores the challenges that the Office of the Clerk faced when attempting to revise the list of sample prayers that are provided to MLAs.

Every day an MLA delivers a prayer in the B.C. Legislature at the start of the session. They are given two choices: They can read a prayer off a sample list or deliver a prayer of their own devising. We found exactly half of the MLAs were delivering a prayer off the sample list, or a combination. The sample sheet is a very narrow range of options. Half of them are sectarian, overtly religious, though vaguely non-denominational. The other half are vaguely secular, but still follow a prayer form. The Office of the Clerk went about updating this list last year, and the BCHA submitted 6 humanist options, along with the full House of Prayers Report. The Office of the Clerk was basically looking to update the list, given that it represented only a very narrow range of faith traditions.

What is interesting about that the active review of the list of sample prayers, is that this process may be unconstitutional, and it is certainly impractical. That is what we argue in our paper. Basically, the state is unable to adjudicate on cases of religious dogma, which has been upheld by various court decisions, and the state has a duty of religious neutrality, as stipulated in the Saguenay decision. It may impossible, therefore, for the state to generate a set of sample prayers, because every time the state selects a prayer for this list, it is, in a sense, arbitrating dogma. Selecting one prayer over another entails the state making a decision that it is incapable of making, both from a constitutional and from a practical perspective.

In our paper, we argue that the state can’t offer a sheet of sample prayers because, in so doing, it is necessarily favouring some religions over others, and it has no basis for doing so.

For those interested in what legislative prayer is like across the country, the BCHA recently released a report surveying ‘Legislative Prayer Across Canada.’

Jacobsen: What about taxes and legal exemptions?

Phelps Bondaroff: One research project that the BCHA started last summer was a survey of legislation that grants religious exceptions, where an individual or group is treated differently on the basis of religious belief or a lack of religious belief.

One component of this project is looking at permissive tax exemptions at the municipal level. A lot of municipalities under the Municipal Charter and other legislation in B.C. can exempt other actors from tax exemption. The goal of granting permissive tax exemptions is to encourage or reward, or help along, some group that is providing a benefit to the community. Some of the recipients of permissive tax exemptions are places of worship. We are looking at this policy and also calculating the overall figure for how much money municipal governments are granting in the form of municipal tax exemptions.

The question is: “Is a place of worship necessarily benefitting a community or is it acting as a private club?” There are differences between a rowing club that is open to anybody, versus a place of worship only open to members, for example. Should we be treating them the same, or giving one greater privilege?

Some places are being treated differently than non-religious recipients, e.g., a local boat club or historical society, or secular soup kitchen, would have different timelines and protocols for approval for a permissive tax exemption, than a place of worship around the corner. Places of worship may receive a tax exemption in perpetuity; whereas, a Boys and Girls Club, for example, has to apply every X number of years.

In many jurisdictions, places of worship may be granted an exemption automatically, and other would-be recipients must apply. In fact, places of worship are automatically granted statutory tax exemptions for their actual place of worship, and municipalities can choose to grant permissive tax exemptions for the rest of the land and improvements surrounding the actual place of worship.

Also, there are often no benefits test in municipalities that grant permissive tax exemptions. There is a tacit assumption that places of worship should receive a tax exemption without considering the question of public benefit. They may be providing one; some host a soup kitchen or offer some programming or services for the public. That’s great, and they may warrant permissive tax exemptions in these cases. However, some may be acting like a private club, offering services only to members. This these cases, a permissive tax exemption would not be justified.

The BCHA is working on developing sample legislation, policies, and bylaws that would provide a robust benefits test, basically saying: “Hey, if you are going to receive public tax money intended to support activities that benefit the community, then we want to check in to make sure you actively working to benefit the community.”

We are looking at various ways of measuring community benefit, and seeing if there are reasonable questions municipalities can ask to make sure tax money is going to organizations that are inclusive and provide a general benefit to the public.

We should have a backgrounder coming out on this shortly, which explains the difference between permissive and statutory tax exemptions, and a more detailed comprehensive report coming out in the near future.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Phelps Bondaroff.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 9: Religion as Behaviour, Belief, and Belonging

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/22

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about academic freedom, Christianity, political involvement of some religion, and religion as primarily belonging.

*Interview conducted on August 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, there are private universities in Canada. There are private universities in the United States. Often, they’re going to be a particular religious denomination. Given the demographics of North America, they are most likely to harbour a denominational status as some form of Christian.

There’s another question there. It has to do with academic freedom. What is the intersection there between academic freedom and religious status for a university? Is there a conflict, in general, in the United States of America?

Professor Ryan Burge: I would say that most Christian schools are of two minds about academic freedom, especially the administration because they realize that they want to get the best faculty that they can get.

At the same time, these schools are attached to national denominations that are wealthy. You have to toe the line of what the denomination wants, which means signing lifestyle statement or covenant statements about how you’re going to behave not only on campus but off campus.

I’ve interviewed at a couple of these schools early in my career when I didn’t know where I would end up. Many of them would be, especially by a Canadian audience, very conservative, even by an American audience.

They are, definitely, conservative Evangelical, not Bob Jones or Liberty, but one step away from that. The tenure concept is an interesting one. They would say, “We have tenure here,” but it can be revoked. “And it has never happened or it is unlikely to happen.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Burge: They would use language like that. You would have to do some clearly a violation of the covenant or the doctrine of the university. There are counterexamples when universities have revoked tenure from tenure professors, Wheaton College.

Some called it the Evangelical Harvard. Many prominent Evangelicals went to Wheaton College. They sign a lifestyle statement that says ‘homosexuality is incompatible with the Gospel.’ Something like that. One of their political science professors during Ramadan on Facebook said, ‘Christians and Muslims worship the same god, belief in the same god.’

It caused quite an uproar. She left Wheaton. She wasn’t fired; she didn’t quit. They “separated.” That’s the language that they would use. She got some kind of settlement that was never disclosed. There are instances where you don’t have as much freedom.

Which is super interesting and way under covered by the media. Especially for people studying Evangelicals in America, the vast majority of those scholars were Evangelicals themselves teaching at Evangelical institutions.

I think there is some pressure there internally or institutionally about not trying to put Evangelicals into too bad of a light for a number of reasons. I think a lot of Evangelical behaviour research in policy was stunted because there wasn’t a diversity of opinions, beliefs, and backgrounds, among those studying Evangelicals.

I can say it is much better now. There are Evangelicals, atheists, and people of other faith groups, studying Evangelicals. I think Evangelicals get a more fair reading, meaning a more honest reading, today than they did 20 years ago – on their political beliefs and voting behaviours.

For a long time, I think it was very one-sided because of the makeup of Academia.

Jacobsen: For clarity of the audience, you did, in a prior portion of life, identify as Evangelical Christian.

Burge: I grew up Evangelical. I do not identify as Evangelical any longer. I am clearly a Mainline Protestant Christian, which has United Methodists and American Baptists (which is what I am), Presbyterians, Evangelical Lutheran Church of American, Episcopalians, Anglicans.

Our church allows women to preach, to lead. Many of the churches in our denomination welcome and accept LGBTQ lifestyle. We are socially progressive. Our church gave a pension to Coretta Scott King, Martin Luther King’s widow, after he died.

Even though, they didn’t have to do it, but racial justice was important to them. We are the more moderate version of American Christianity, polite Christianity, which doesn’t seem to exist anymore in a lot of places.

I don’t identify as Evangelical any longer.

Jacobsen: What denominations of Christianity have an explicit orientation towards political involvement, as in wanting that conflation of political life and religious life?

Burge: That’s a good one. I find the black church. The African American Methodist Episcopal Church in America – a lot of black Pentecostals – are political. There are historical reasons for that. Their churches were formed at a time when black politicians could not get an audience at a white church, white community centre, etc.

The black church became a haven. That’s why they became active because they didn’t have access to many institutions like white people did. There are pockets of Evangelical denominations active.

But most churches at the aggregate level are very resistant to being overtly political. There are always the examples like Robert Jeffress. A guy who is extremely politically active. A guy from Dallas, Texas who supports Trump on every issue and had Pence at his church on July 4^th.

Those guys are very rare, though. The average Southern Baptist preacher is not overtly political from the pulpit because they realize the vast majority of the American public does not want pastors to be overtly political.

You cannot make statements about specific denominations, but can about particular pastors in specific denominations who get focused on a lot in the media.

Jacobsen: What ones are the most hesitant? People like Billy Graham were burned in their political dealings. There is a prominent example of an individual who was clearly a very religious man, a Christian religious man, who took a step back in a number of ways due to being burned around Nixon.

Burge: Yes, I would say that the denominations that are the least likely to speak about politics are the ones that are most divided politically, e.g., the United Methodist Church in America. The United Methodist Church is the largest mainline denomination in American.

They are the counterpart to the Southern Baptists, but they are 50%-55% Republican and 40% Democrats. That’s a pretty good mix for a church. They have tried their best to navigate these differences by trying to be as non-committal as possible.

What you see as a downside of trying to be everything to everybody, they decided to split in this past year. Conservatives are going to form a new denomination where they are not going to affirm the LGBT lifestyle and the United Methodist Church is going t stay what it is, which is open and affirming to LGBT people.

There is a downside there. It festers discontent and division at the lower levels. I think churches like that, churches that are more divided; you are going to see less commitment, less overt politics. 80% Democrat or 80% Republican churches will talk politics, goosing their base, not making anybody mad, because of that.

That’s what pastors are thinking about the most. What will keep my job safe? What will not?

Jacobsen: You used the term “lifestyle” or the “LGBT lifestyle.” This is where a lot of meanings come but with different terms or phrases. What are the interpretations of this in general?

Burge: There is a clear delineation in even the thinking about homosexuality. Evangelicals say that one sin is created evil for another. No one sin is worse than another sin. When they talk about homosexuality, there are homosexual thoughts and homosexual actions.

I think a lot of Evangelicals have come down on the side of “you might have homosexual proclivities. But if you live a celibate lifestyle, don’t act on it, then you aren’t sinning.” However, what is interesting, Evangelicals will also say, ‘If you have lustful thoughts for someone who is not your partner, then you have sinned.

It is a grey area, where they don’t know what to do with homosexuality. A lot of Evangelicals think homosexuality is a sinful thought pattern like alcoholism or something like that. You can work your way through it. Your brain has been deluded with sin.

That’s what make you attracted to someone with the same sex as you. If you turn yourself over to Jesus, then those thoughts will go away. You will return to right thinking, which is heterosexual thoughts and activity.

Evangelicals have said, “If you have homosexual thoughts or feel as if that’s the lifestyle that you want to live, if you don’t act on that, then you can still be a member of one of those churches because you have never done anything that is sinful.”

It is a weird way to get around the issue, but it is where a lot of the Evangelicals get down on this issue now.

Jacobsen: If American religion was 200 people, you have some big categories with Protestants and then Nothing in Particular, then Catholics, atheists, agnostics, etc. If we look at some of the other data around forms of bigotry and hate, the three that came to mind when I looked at Statistics Canada.

There was a rise what has been termed Islamophobia or anti-Muslim sentiment, anti-Semitism, and anti-Catholic prejudice. Those are the three big ones. What are the rises and falls of this in American society? Who is experiencing better in the recent history of the United States? Which ones are experiencing things worse in terms of the ways those trend lines are going?

Burge: So, anti-Catholic sentiment, especially in America, used to be higher 30 or 40 years ago compared to day. There is a lot of anti-Catholic sentiment in America going back to immigration. 100 years ago in America, Italians and Irish people came to America. They were Catholic. America was largely a Protestant country at the time.

It was like, ‘If you are going to come to America, you need to assimilate to our religion. We are Protestant.’ So, the Catholic piece was tied into the immigrant piece. They were anti-Catholic, but anti-‘Other,’ where the ‘Other’ is “Catholic.”

Post-Vatican II, there is a weird détente. For a long time, Protestants in America had an enemy, Catholics. They were outsiders. Then the next 20 or 25 years, the enemy has become Islam. Now, Protestants and Catholics look at each other saying, ‘We are a lot closer. Islam is the real enemy.” We are one team now.

The ‘Other’ is not Catholics, but Muslims now. Like I said, in Vatican II, they said Protestants are not sinners. They get into heaven just like we will, “You’re okay. We’re okay.” Even though, many Protestants don’t like the Pope in theology.

Sociologically, they see Catholics as distant cousins who are still part of the team. The enemy is Muslims. We are seeing a rise in anti-Catholic sentiment, but a rise in anti-Muslim sentiment. But I think is actually waning in America over the last couple of years because 9/11 has faded and the same with Iraq and Afghanistan, but it still doesn’t have the same fevered pitch as before.

I think it is waning as well. The group Americans don’t like the most is atheists, even Democrats.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Burge: People are amazed by that. I ask, “Why don’t more Americans like atheists?” Honestly, Democrats don’t like atheists ether. It is not faith versus no faith. It is not a palatable thing to be in America today.

Jacobsen: What about Independents?

Burge: Independents are weird. They hate everybody.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Burge: They don’t even wear masks now. They’re weird. They are disconnected from society or people who are really weird. When I look at the thermometer score – 1 to 100, 1 being cold, 100 being hot, atheists score amongst Evangelicals score below 30.

For Catholics, they score 42 for Democratic Catholics and 33 for Republican Catholics. Here is what is even more fascinating, amongst the religiously unaffiliated, atheists score a 54 among Democrat Nones and a 45 among Republican Nones.

So, there’s not even a warm feeling there among Nones towards atheists. So, they are a very disliked group.

Jacobsen: What is the source or set of sources for this “very disliked group”? Why do Americans dislike atheists or hate them?

Burge: Because America is inherently a Christian country. Okay, so, there is this thing call Civic Religion in America. This has a long history in America and in social science. It is the idea that the flag is sacred. Arlington Cemetery is a place of reverence.

Going to the Lincoln Memorial and the Washington Monument is like walking in a sacred space, it is almost like a religious site. American national identity is deeply intertwined with American religious identity.

The default in America is “You are a Christian.” Every president that we have had, at least as far as we can tell, has aligned himself with American Christianity. It is how we see ourselves, even amongst the Nones. They still defer to the idea of Christianity as the default, right or wrong.

I think a lot of it is tied up in this idea of civic religion. We say, ‘God help America. So help me God.” There are people who swear on the Bible who don’t even believe in the Bible. Atheists don’t. They reject all of that stuff. It is tough.

They might not be devoutly Christian themselves. “I don’t hate Christianity. You hate it.” I think that’s what that is about.

Jacobsen: You commented on Andrew Sullivan who is a prominent commentator in American life. He has done the rounds of various media. He was noting, ‘You can’t be a Christian and an atheist at the same time. Black Lives Matter defines itself as atheist and neo-Marxist. Fundamentally incompatible worldviews.’

You replied with a contextualization of the interesting phenomenon among self-identification and then some of the apparent conflicts in the content, typically, associated with the identification. What was the response? I think was an interesting part of the research by you.

Burge: Most people don’t think as much as I do or like I think about it. They think about religion as what you believe in your head. I don’t think that’s how religion works at all. I think the beliefs in your head are downstream from other stuff. They are called the Three Bs. Religion is behaviour, belief, and belonging.

Behaviour is going to church, praying, giving a tithing or offering, or a religious activity. That’s behaviour. Belief is “Do you believe in Jesus?”, “Do you believe in the Virgin Mary?”, “Do you believe in thePope?”, “Do you believe in Allah?”, “Do you believe the Bible is literally true?”. Those are belief measures.

I think the last is most important called belonging or affiliation. It is on a survey when I ask, “What is your present religion if any?” You saying that you are Catholic, Protestant, Buddhist, atheist, etc. It is a meaningful statement, to me, as a social scientist.

Because what it says, ‘I am publicly declaring on this survey that those people who I am associating with are people like me.’ For instance, I wrote a post two or three months ago. People always give me a hard time on Twitter, “How can you be an Evangelical that never goes to church?”

I showed that Evangelicals that never go to church are more conservative than Catholics who never go to church. By casting your lot with Evangelicals on a survey, it says you affiliate with them for good or for ill.

Evangelicals have gotten more rightwing and caught more flack from the American public and the general public. It is to say, ‘I still see the world like that. Even though, I don’t think Jesus is the Son of God and don’t go to church. I still cast my vote with those people over there.’

To me, religion is more about how you orient yourself in social space. To me, those are material that you still choose to be Evangelical. It tells me something about you as a person. It tells me you’re different than a Catholic who doesn’t believe in the Bible and doesn’t go to church.

Belonging is first and the others are below it. Going to church, it makes you more of that thing. So, if you are part of a liberal denomination and go to church more often, it should make you more liberal; if you are part of a conservative denomination and go to church often, it should make you more conservative.

But you are still casting your line, your vote. That’s how I think about religion as behaviour, belief, and belonging, and belonging is most important by a long shot.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Burge.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 23: Magical Thinking By No Name

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/21

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about magical thinking.

*Interview conducted on October 5, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, what is magical thinking? And how does this apply to advanced industrial societies, with highly educated people in various parts of the society still extant? It’s just there. It is present. It affects everyone’s lives. In fact, it affects policymaking, and politics all the time in the United States, far more often than a lot of the other advanced industrial economies.

Jonathan Engel: Well, I think it’s interesting because it came up. I was speaking with some fellow humanists recently, and that thing came up in a tangential way, but it was the heart of the matter. We were talking about Donald Trump’s COVID diagnosis, whether or not it’s okay. How should a humanist feel about this, and talk about this?

With regard to schadenfreude, the taking pleasure in the misfortune of others. Because if there was anybody who deserves it, it’s him. We’re talking about 210,000 Americans dead. And some of these people were real heroes. People who went to work in hospitals. They were risking their lives. And they died just trying to save others.

And Trump has not shed a single tear for any of them. But on the other hand, we humanists do believe, generally speaking, that we should endeavour to enhance human happiness and decrease human suffering. We feel this way about trust. So, is it okay to feel glad, and take some pleasure out of the fact that this S.O.B. is getting sick?

And I can tell you that yesterday’s New York Times; there were op-eds by Frank Bruni and Nicholas Kristof. In which both of them admonished Liberals, “Do not take pleasure in this, and you’re not supposed to.” Also, you hear Nancy Pelosi, the Speaker of the House, and all sorts of democratic politicians, e.g., Joe Biden, of course, saying that they’re praying for Trump.

They never wanted this to happen to him. They’re praying for him. Although I think they’re politicians, some of that might just be for public consumption, in order to contrast themselves with Trump’s callousness towards people who have been sick and might get sick.

Not to mention the fact that he’s caused some people to get sick. Almost certainly, at the Democratic Convention this year, there was a woman who spoke whose father died of COVID. She said the only pre-existing condition my father had was that he believed Donald Trump. So, if this causes Trump to change his ways, or maybe, hopefully, but that’s impossible. But some Trump supporters need to possibly take this more seriously and wear a mask, etc. You could look at it as a positive that way. So, it’s okay. You’re excusing yourself from those feelings of: this is a good thing – because you rationalize it.

Well, it has good practical effects. Even though, I shouldn’t be engaging in this kind of thinking, but I think you don’t have to get to the heart of the matter, what you were talking about; that this is magical thinking. ,

The idea that somehow, if I say, “I’m glad you got COVID,” or, “I hope he gets COVID,” and then he does. “Oh, that’s terrible” What do you mean “might be glad” or ‘hoping he gets it’? It has nothing to do with what actually is going to happen any more than the prayers of Nancy Pelosi or Joe Biden are going to make it well.

You’re right to phrase it that way. It comes to magical thinking. That’s something that seems to be a large part of American society, even for people who aren’t religious. Some don’t even identify with the religion.

There’s a part of the magical thinking. They’re very hesitant to give it up. And you see it here with the idea that somehow you shouldn’t take pleasure and say, “Oh, if you’re happy because he gets COVID, then you might get COVID.” Well, I might get COVID anyway.

But what the hell has it got to do with me being happy that he got it? And the answer is, of course, “Nothing.” I think it’s the people who don’t necessarily believe in a personal God, think there’s some force in the universe that punishes you for bad things.

I think it helps people make sense of the universe that punishes you for thinking bad things. Not just necessarily doing them, but thinking what would the bad things be, or what would be considered bad things. That somehow, you’ll get punished for it.

If you hope that Trump gets COVID, and then he does; you’re in trouble. Now, the cosmic universe, karma, or whatever you want to call it. It may punish you for feeling that way, by giving you COVID. Let’s face it, Trump didn’t get COVID because he’s acted like a bastard.

In terms of what he’s done, the lack of empathy for anybody else who’s suffering, or any of that kind of thing. He got COVID because he acted like a jerk. He acted like a moron. He wouldn’t wear a mask. They wouldn’t take the basic precautions that need to be taken. That’s why he got COVID.

Jacobsen: Do you think over the last four years, the United States has decreased in its level of critical thinking? Or the current administration’s approach to press, media, and public relations has created an environment more conducive to bringing out that which was already there?

Namely, the lack of a critical thinking culture, and a widespread series of poor critical thinking subcultures. For example, Conspiracy Theorists, Cults, QAnon, Religious Fundamentalism, various forms of anti-science, and so on?

Engel: I think that’s an interesting question. And I’ve been thinking about that a lot, wondering when the United States comes out of this, will we realize that the scientific method is the way for us to discover the truth about our world.

On the critical thinking, and critical reasoning part, I don’t remember. A number of weeks ago, I read an essay by a professor at Harvard law school who was bemoaning the fact that they teach critical reasoning in law school. That’s a lot of what they teach. But he was saying in his essay that we should be teaching in grade school, and high school.

Because people don’t have it. So, what happens when we come out of this? And to tell you the truth, I’m a little down on human nature. Because you see things happening. I don’t know. I just don’t see that people are getting it that much.

I’m hopeful. I, certainly, am hope that people would look, and I think there’s a chance that, at least, some people would realize, “Wow, what the scientists told us turned out to be true. And they were basing it on their research and their science. And what the preachers, politicians were telling us, ‘Oh, it will magically disappear by Easter,’ which is a great date for it to disappear. Don’t you think? That was Trump. They were wrong. And so, he said, ‘Well, listen, maybe, we need to look at things critically. Maybe, we need to trust science. And that’s the way for us to learn about ourselves, about our planet and our environment rather than engaging in wishful or magical thinking. That things are controlled by some strange forces that we can’t see.’

I hope so, but I don’t know. The history in this country, isn’t great on that. It’s a very religious country. Which again, I swear, I think this is where a lot of this comes from. Where do people learn that it’s a positive character trait to believe in things for which there is no evidence?

Of course, in Church, in Mosque, and in Synagogue, that’s where they learned that. And they learned it from a very young age. And they see it reinforced all through their lives, and breaking through that is a hard task. I have no illusions about how difficult it is.

Jacobsen: In particular, I would take this as a personal moral stance or obligation. Because I don’t consider organizational humanism the be-all and end-all. I consider humanism at the root about an individual recognition of science, human rights, and democracy in many ways, along some other values.

Where the individual organizations devoted to humanism or humanistic orientations, by and large, they exist for those individuals who find that recognition in part or in whole, and then join those organizations as members of staff, as boards, as executive directors.

So in terms of combating these forms of magical thinking by no name, we can look to historical examples of people who aren’t necessarily acknowledged as much by ordinary humanists.

Those without stature, those without prominent standing or authority within the community. So, someone like Martin Gardner had a vast influence on the culture of critical thinking, and skepticism in the United States without necessarily going by such a name.

In the same way, Bill Nye does a similar task, but goes by that title. In fact, he’s derided. I think by Ken Ham as Bill Nye the Humanist Guy with a sneer.

Engel: If you think he gets a bad wrap by referring to himself as humanist, try referring to yourself as an atheist.

Jacobsen: Yes, exactly, that’s right. In fact, I had talked to professor Burge in one recent interview session. And he noted Democrats, Republicans, and Independents of the United States all view Atheists as among the people they’re coldest to – and many think this is only among Republicans, but this is among all major political party identifications in the United States.

All three view Atheists as among the lowest, we’re talking in the 30% to 40% range of likeability. People are very cold towards atheists, self-identified atheists in the United States. It’s probably similar on a values variable to the magical thinking variable, where individuals have the atheist identification.

They are seen as not having a moral center. Because morality is implicitly connected to a religious identification or religious sensibility in the United States. If there is a morality, there must be a morality giver.

Similarly with magical thinking, all of this kind of karma, horoscopes and prayer, stuff. People still believe in these things without giving a proper name to them in the United States. And it’s just infused in the culture, and people don’t question things as much anymore. I think it leads to not even be able to label things.

Engel: Yes, I think you’re right. And I think that’s where it comes in. We were talking about people who have called themselves spiritual, but not religious. They see these religious hypocrites all the time. What’s his name, the guy Liberty University?

Jacobsen: Jerry Falwell Jr.

Engel: They see these people who are trying to themselves be reasonably ethical people. And they are telling a congregation of poor people, send me lots of money, and that’s how you’ll make money too. And you’ll get into heaven, and then I’ll have a private plane. They see that kind of thing. They say wow, that’s terrible. I can’t come against that. If that is what religious is, I’m not religious, I’m not religious then.

But the pull of the magical thinking, the pull of the groups thing, when it comes to that way. That will, of course. When you say a prayer for people who are sick, or something like that, it’s a decent thing to do. That pull is very strong.

I think people don’t even want to put their critical analysis to this. I think people who are religious certainly don’t want to. I think even the people, again, who are not affiliated with any religion, but claim to be spiritual.

It’s their way of dipping a toe in the water without actually jumping in. Because it’s like, “Well, I don’t believe that, but I have to say something to make me sound not so bad.” The way atheists are looked at, the way atheists are thought about etc. It’s part of that.

Nobody wants to be looked down on, like the statistics you just cited. Nobody wants to be looked down on anywhere and things like that. So, you find the middle ground. But I think that has much more to do with our social structures, than it has to do with any critical thinking.

They’re not applying critical thinking to this. You have someone like that. You think me sitting in my room, hoping that Trump gets better, will mean that he increases his chances of getting better? I’m sitting in my room in New York City.

He’s sitting in his hospital in Washington, DC. Do you think the other way around? Do you think, “Man, I hope this bastard suffers,” is going to change what happens to him?

I think not so much; that they think the answer to that question is “Yes.” Is that more to the point? I think they don’t want to even consider that question. Because it brings out certain truths, which can be frightening. If you think that, within the social structure of this country, which tends to be very religious.

“I can’t possibly believe in a lot of this nonsense. But if I give it up all the way, it’s not because intellectually. I can’t give it up all the way. It’s because I’ve been so socialized to believe that’s a positive thing. It’s just uncomfortable to consider it. So, I’ll put it that way and put it to bed that way, put it to rest that way saying, ‘Well, I’m not religious. I don’t belong to a religion or anything, but I am spiritual.’”

And that is the social comfort zone without the necessity of doing real rational analysis. That’s a different term. A figure of speech, we all say stuff like that. Although, I tend to substitute “Zeus” for “God.”

Hey, he’s a guy. Like, there’s an old saying, when someone says something that they hope happens. They used to say, “From your mouth to God’s ears.” I would more likely say, “From your mouth to Zeus’s ears. And I don’t believe he is up there listening.”

But I wonder, what do people think of their religion, especially in this country? What do they think of it as? And one of the things that I think about, we’re now into October and pretty soon the Christmas movies are going to start coming out. Not that long from now, but when you look at these movies, the companies churn out thousands of them. And they roll the same movie.

Like charging career woman in the big city, has to go to her hometown to help out her father’s store, which looks like it may go under, when she’s there, she runs into her old high school flame who was a widower with two or three children.

And she realizes, “Oh, but the small-town things are best, it takes place around Christmas. And trees, and the lights, and the snow falling.” But what? it doesn’t have anything to do with Jesus, or religion or anything else like that.

And that’s what people want you to think about. What are the most popular Christmas movies? Movies like a Miracle on 34th Street, It’s a Wonderful Life. Jesus will make no appearance. In fact, TV channels run the Jesus movies like King of Kings and things like that on Christmas day itself, because Christmas day itself was the day when nobody’s watching.

And where they don’t need advertisers all that much because everybody’s already bought their Christmas stuff. So, it’s interesting. It’s an interesting study of religion, because I think what most people want are what I want. Yes, there are the super, super religious people.

There are ultra-Orthodox Jews who tried to live their best, as if it’s the 14th century. Something for some reason that I can’t figure out. But for a lot of people in this country, they just want to have that karmic glow to them.

Without wanting to delve into the religious part. What do people like about Christmas? And what they like is the presents, and Santa Claus, and the trees, and the lights, and the big meal, that’s what they like about it. A feeling of goodwill, maybe once in a while, between people, as if you have to believe in the supernatural to feel goodwill towards fellow people.

But when it could be actually religious with the part of ‘meeting Jesus,’ you mean dragging that cross around and stuff? Oh, that’s a bummer. That’s a downer. I don’t want that.

Jacobsen: Okay, Jon, thank you so much.

Engel: Take care, Scott. I will see you next week.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 8: Religious Identity and Political Warmth (or Lack Thereof)

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/19

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about attitudes, politics, and religion.

*Interview conducted on September 28, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With regards to American Muslim identity in the United States, what are identities cross-linked between American Muslim identity and political identity in regard to the United States?

Professor Ryan Burge: With Muslims, first, it is important. They are not a large portion of the United States. They are in the media a lot. A lot of stories about them, especially in the post-9/11 world.

The reality, they are less than 1% of the population. I don’t see a lot of evidence of a lot of growth. They are geographically located in certain places in the United States like Dearborn, Michigan. They have a huge Muslim population, but they are only 3% of the population of Michigan as a whole.

So, it doesn’t matter as a whole for the state. Interestingly enough, 80%+ of them voted for Hillary Clinton. They are a strong Democrat backing coalition. You would think this translate into labels. Muslims don’t get into labelling themselves liberals.

In fact, only about 30% of Muslims identify as liberal and 50% identify as independents. All independent liberals voted for Clinton, but they don’t see themselves liberals. They are strong Democrats, but not strong liberals. They are a sold blue vote, but are not far left on policy.

Jacobsen: This is an interesting part of the research. So, quoting you, “If transgender is subbed for abortion, the gap narrows quite a bit,” n terms of Trump approval among white Evangelical Republicans. Can you break that down for me?

Burge: I hear people say, “White Evangelicals vote for Republicans largely because of abortion and hold their nose, and aren’t for all the other policies of the Republican Party.” I have been toying with the idea that it isn’t abortion. Maybe, it is immigration.

That is one that comes to mind because Trump brought immigration to the front of what the Republican Party is about. So, I published a bunch of stuff recently showing that an Evangelical who disagrees with Trump on abortion, but agrees with him on immigration, has a much higher approval rating than the opposite.

So, abortion is doing less work there than immigration is. I had a question about transgender. Do you agree or disagree? ‘There is two genders: only male or female?’ If you take abortion out and put transgenderism in, then the gap between immigration and transgender is smaller than the gap between immigration and abortion.

I think abortion is less important than the views on transgenderism among Evangelicals, which shows you where it lands in the pecking order. It is a social issue, but it is not nearly as important as other issues in the Republican constellation of issues.

I think we need to stop talking about abortion as Evangelicals’ single issue vote. It is not about abortion. It is about the whole suite of Republican ideas and abortion as one of them. They’d still vote for Republicans if they were more moderate on abortion.

Jacobsen: This is a less nuanced question. Which has an amusing angle on it, you called it a ‘weird little nugget,’ where 66% of Evangelicals or Catholics who tend to vote for Biden think that Jesus would vote for Biden.

Only 53% of Trump supporters thought Jesus would vote for Trump. What is going on?

Burge: [Laughing] I don’t know. I found this nugget in a private advocacy group. I love the idea. Am I voting for what the Bible tells me to vote for or for what my politics is telling me to vote for? It is figuring out how that matrix of decision-making happens. Does politics come first or religion come first?

It adds a weird angle. You’d think a lot of Evangelicals would say, “I would vote for Trump. Jesus would vote for Trump. I want to vote for who Jesus would vote for.” It is clear. That’s not true. Half of people who are going to vote for Trump go, “The Jesus of my religion wouldn’t vote for Trump. I will vote for Trump anyway.”

It is not “the Bible tells me who to vote for.” It is “my party tells me who to vote for and I justify it later.” So, I think it’s really an indictment of what American religion has become, especially American conservative religion.

They don’t think Jesus would vote for who they’d vote for. But they will still vote for him anyway, because it is not really about Jesus at this point anyway.

Jacobsen: There’s so much interesting research. Some really crucial points of contact in the United States. These are reiterations of things we’ve discussed in other sessions. When I look at some of the identifications of how people look at sex and gender issues, something that you did not expect was that transgender identities would have less support from older Evangelicals.

Yet, 65% of 40-year-olds think there are only two genders, but drops to 60% among 70-year-olds. My first question: Is that statistically significant? That 5% or just within the margin of error.

Burge: It is interesting. That’s a huge sample. It’s like 300,000 people. So, margins there are very small. I don’t know if it is substantively significant. The thing that jumps out to me. The expectation is agreement with the statement would happen with older and older people.

I think that’s the assumption we all have. The oldest Americans are, typically, the most conservative, especially on gay marriage, abortion, and transgenderism. The fact they don’t go up from a 40-year-old. It is something interesting about old people.

If you look at older people, they tend to moderate, become more soft, less dogmatic, even on abortion. Older people are not more opposed to abortion than young people. At 40-year-olds, you’re still thinking about it because you might still get pregnant. At 70, you’re more in a live-and-let-live mentality.

I think transgenderism is more current and gay marriage is more 15 years ago when the public was more divided. We are still in the moment around 2004/06 when big swathes of America really have conservative views about transgenderism like they did about gay marriage.

I am curious, in the next 15 or 20 years, if this becomes an issue, or if this moves to the progressive side, or if this moves to the abortion side and has a lot of stability over a long period of time. Transgenderism follow the track of “I’m not changing my mind. I don’t care what happens…” It is too early to know, to test that.

Jacobsen: This is interesting as a piece of research. 2/3rds of Jews know John Roberts is the Supreme Court Chief Justice. ½ atheists and 40% of Mormons, now, these are quite different numbers with Evangelical Christian, non-Evangelical Christian at the lowest.

Why are we seeing these differences in knowledge about the political-legal landscape of the United States?

Burge: It is, basically, a proxy for education. Political knowledge questions are always fun. You can see who pays attention and who doesn’t. You can ask, ‘How much attention do you pay attention to politics?’ There’s not a whole lot.

But down to brass tax, you have to ask substantive questions. A lot of people get them wrong. Jewish people have very high levels of education. That’s part of their culture. We know almost half of atheists have a 4-year college degree.

People with 4-year college degrees are atheists. It is noteworthy people continue to exist and do not have a basic knowledge of American politics. They don’t know how long a Senate term is, which is a basic civics question.

Only 4 religious groups actually got more than half of the people in those groups getting it right, which means more than half of the people in 12 groups got it wrong. It is amazing how democracy can function with so many people voting and not knowing how it functions and voting every 4 years.

Jacobsen: Approximately 25% of Protestants of the Greatest Generation consider their church non-denominational, 30% among Boom, 60% among Millennials, 60% among Gen Z. So, why the explosion of non-denominational churches?

Burge: My co-author and I wrote a book about the rise of non-denominational Christianity and the future of religion. We have come down to the idea of Americans of rejecting labels and institutions more and more, especially when the institutions are far away from them.

We see these non-denominational churches started by a local pastor without much help. They are all local. The pastor grew up in that community. Most of the people in that church are from that community rot hat town. They grow well because they don’t have all the baggage that Southern Baptists, Methodists, or Presbyterians have had for years.

They can start from ground zero without the history that ties them down. They have the new, shiny factor of growth feeds growth. More people talk about it, come to it. Growth means growth means growth. The churches have gone out of their way to not be controversial and not have this long history on race issues, gender issues, and sexuality.

You avoid all that stuff. People come to them as almost a blank slate. They have sights, sounds, and a place where other people go to. I think American Protestant Christian will have over half of the people who are Protestant will be non-denominational in the future.

Most Protestants will decline, even the Southern Baptist Convention has had a decade of decline in size – even more relative to the size of the population. When they’re declining, everyone is. The United Methodists, the Episcopalians are declining.

When we see all these declining, and when we see the Evangelicals not declining, it is because a lot of them have shifted from being denominational to non-denominational. I think that’s what a lot of American Christianity is beginning to look like.

Jacobsen: So, the thermometer score of various groups like party identifications. “Atheists,” “Congress,” “federal government,” “Tea Party,” “Christian fundamentalists,” “feminists,” these labels tend to rate very low on metrics of party identification, Democrat, Republican, Independent.

Why are these related to being significantly less liked among different political groups in the United States?

Burge: You would think Republicans wouldn’t like atheists because Republicans are the party of white Christians and white Christians don’t like atheists. Atheists are, obviously, antagonistic towards that. But Democrats don’t like atheists that much.

On a scale of 1 to 100, Democrats rate atheists at 41. It is the second lowest. The only group lower were the Tea Party at 30. So, 20 points lower than unions. Christians among Democrats rank 70.5 and atheists rank 41.4. That’s about 30 points.

It shows you how American, even though we have such a rising group of religiously unaffiliated; we still have a civic religion in America. That’s religion is Christianity. Being an atheist, it is being out of step with what most Americans think American should be about.

Even though, they don’t go to church and couldn’t care less about church. They think you need to be Christian to be a good person. This is one more piece of good evidence: Atheists are discriminated against as much as, if not more than, any other religious group in America because they are ut of step with what it means to be a “Real American.”

Jacobsen: An addendum: this is regardless of political label.

Burge: Yes, even if you look at Independents, it is 40 out of 100. Republicans, it is 33, which is slightly above the federal government and slightly above liberals. Muslims are 37 rather than 33 (atheists). So, Republicans like Muslims more than they like atheists, which tells you a lot.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I wish we could talk some more. Ryan, Professor Burge, thank you for your time.

Burge: Thank you, Scott, I appreciate it.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 22: Justice for All

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/17

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about the law.

*Interview conducted on August 31, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, so, today, we’re back with another wonderful Ask Jon. We’re going to talk about the law. Also, speaking of the law, you ever hear the joke; it’s a line that goes, “If in-laws are outlawed, only outlaws will have in-laws!”

Engel: [Laughing] No, that’s the first time for me.

Jacobsen: Here goes another one. “How many Freemasons does it take to plug in a light bulb? That’s a craft secret.”

Engel: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Anyhow. Okay, so, the law. You are a trained Lawyer, a juris doctor. As has been noted before, but for those who are just tuning in, this is important. So what have been some interesting issues, if not concerning issues, arising in the United States, based on the recent Republican National Convention?

Last week, you critiqued the Democratic National Convention based on the fact that faith became a major part of it. When in particular, the Nones are a growing group of the Democratic Party, as opposed to the Republican Party. So what happened at the Republican National Convention? How does this contrast to the Democratic National Convention?

Engel: Well, the Republican National Convention reminded me why I’m a Democrat. Despite some misgivings, just as a quick aside, it was interesting. I was on a call yesterday, in Zoom meeting, with a bunch of people from my organization, the Secular Humanist Society of New York.

And a lot of them were saying, “John, don’t say that. Don’t criticize the Democrats, because if they don’t win, this country is in some huge trouble.” And I said, “Listen, you’re right. I’m just talking to you guys.” And I certainly support the Democratic ticket in a lot of ways. And I agree with them on much of the Democratic ticket. I was just complaining, grousing a bit, that they take secular votes for granted, which they do.

But I understand that the need to win after looking at the Republican coronation or whatever the hell you want to call it. We have a law here in the United States, which is called the Hatch Act. And what the law says, it is illegal, criminal, for a government employer, Federal Government Employee to use their position for political gain.

And the Republican convention being held at the White House was, the whole thing was one big violation of the Hatch Act. And Mark Meadows, Trump’s Chief of Staff was asked about that, “Hey, didn’t that violate the Hatch Act?” His response was ‘nobody cares. Nobody outside the beltway cares,’ is what he said. So, wait a minute.

We’re supposed to have a rule of what here. What is he saying? When he says, ‘Nobody cares,’ what he means is ‘no Republicans care.’ I’ll get a little bit more back in a minute. What happened to the bullet point?

It’s a law. You’re not supposed to say, “Well, on our side, we don’t care about that law in this particular instance. And so, therefore, we’re not going to enforce it.” I mean, that’s astonishing that the President’s Chief of Staff was saying that. It wasn’t any kind of defense that “we didn’t break the law” or anything like that.

It wasn’t any kind of defense or saying, “Well, no, no, technically, that wasn’t the violation of the Hatch Act because it was nothing like that.” It was just ‘who cares?’ The kicks that the rule of law has taken throughout this regime have been very serious. And again, what my thinking is that as a lawyer is that, the rule of law is pretty much everything.

You have to be able to enforce the law in a neutral tribunal. And if you don’t have that, everything else you have is meaningless. I look at countries that in recent years have turned toward authoritarianism. Countries like Hungary and the Philippines. These countries, they don’t get rid of their constitution.

They don’t get rid of their courts. They don’t get rid of their elections. They just rig everything so that they always win. The guy in Belarus who now has got people for weeks in the streets demanding he leave. He said he won 80% of the vote. Because if you control the testing of the votes and it’s not free and open, then it doesn’t matter what happens in the election. You win. And so, what happens if your opponent then goes to court to say, “Hey, wait a second”?

The constitution of Belarus says that they have free and fair elections. And this guy just stole it. Well, if the courts are controlled by the ruler and by the ruling party, then you can have all the niceties in the constitution you want. But if the court says, “Go away, no, we rule against you,” for no particular reason, it doesn’t matter. “Just go away. We rule against you.” Then you don’t have anything. You don’t have anything to stand on. Did you know that Americans are somewhat arrogant? Are you aware of that, Scott?

Jacobsen: [Laughing] No, I never heard of this in my entire time living North of the border. I swear, even during the times of the border as the Orange Line.

Engel: [Laughing] Yes. Well, Americans with, “Oh, of course, we can have it here.” But I can tell you. As a student, I have a juris doctor, a law degree, that’s my graduate degree, but my undergraduate degree was 20th century European history.

And I can tell you a lot of Germans, a lot of German Jews and German liberals. This is a civilized country; this can’t happen here. One of the great societies who has these great thinkers. We’re the land of Beethoven. It can’t happen here. And it did. One of the things that scared me a lot over the weekend, which were a number of things, is that I read a book review in the New York Times, it was a review of a book.

The review was by Jennifer Szalai, “In the Second Volume of ‘Hitler,’ How a Dictator Invited His Own Downfall,” as the book was about Hitler’s downfall 1939 to 1945. Now the review mentions nothing. I read the whole review. There’s nothing in it about contemporary times, no allusions, no references to contemporary times.

And yet I pulled out a whole bunch of quotes from the review that are so resonant about what’s happening with Trump in the United States today. That it’s terrifying. So, between that and Trump saying, ‘Let’s have a civil war here.’

Once his powerful military troops go into places where there is protest and civic unrest to prevent violence, there were so many echoes of Nazi Germany. I’m not saying that it’s going to be a direct parallel.

If I knew that there was going to be a direct parallel, I’d be on my way up to your small town right now. But it is very, very frightening. And again, maybe, this is my legal training, but, to me, it’s all about the rule of law. A real independent judiciary that we’re losing right now.

Especially with William Barr in charge of the Justice Department. You would think, “Yes, Mark Meadows, the Chief of Staff, can say, ‘Who cares? Nobody outside the beltway cares that we violated the Hatch Act.’” But you would think that the Department of Justice would care.

But Bill Barr is in charge of the Department of Justice and he has shown himself to be simply a Trump acolyte. And so, what’s going to happen? Nothing. So, you have this great law on the book, the Hatch Act. It’s a really wonderful law. And it’s broken.

B if nobody will enforce it, if the people who are in charge of the law say, “We’re not going to enforce it, because that is a benefit to our side.” You’re on a slope down to somewhere that you really do not want to go.

Jacobsen: What are other legal mechanisms for the separation of religion and government in the United States being violated?

Engel: Well, basically, it’s the courts. That’s how you know when there’s a violation of the constitution. That’s how you enforce it. Listen, in 1958, that was the year I was born. But my older brother was seven years older than me. He was in school. And the local school district instituted a prayer that said, “Okay, every morning we’re going to start with this prayer.”

And my brother came home one day, told my father about it. And Mike, we had next door neighbors who were upset about it, too. And so, my father and our next-door neighbors, and some other neighbors started a lawsuit. And it went all the way to the United States Supreme Court. And the United States Supreme Court held in 1962 that organized prayers in public schools are a violation of the constitution.

And the name of the case was Engel v. Vitale, 370 U.S. 421 (1962). So, what do you do? You go to court. That’s how you enforce the constitution. That’s how you enforce the constitutional separation of church and state. It’s through the courts, but you have to trust that the courts are neutral arbiters of the law.

And right now, it’s questionable. I would say that we’re moving into waters where that sort of thing becomes… it’s work. “What is the deal the leader wants?” as opposed to “What does the law say?” And once you get into that area, then you’re marching towards a place that you don’t want to go.

Jacobsen: What groups tend to become early victims of this violation in which some can see reflection in the mandates as interpreted of the largest religious segments of the country?

Engel: Well, that’s an interesting question. Because you never know, and that’s why you want to enforce civil rights, and our bill of rights, and our constitution for everyone. Martin Luther King very famously said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” Because you never know which group, whose ox is going to be gored.

I said that about Michigan. I forget exactly where in Michigan, but there are parts of Michigan that have had the Islamic representation. There are a lot of people who are Muslim. You imagine them saying, “Oh, we want to put prayer back in school.”

We want to get rid of Engel v. Vitale. We’ve been defending Engel v. Vitale since 1962. Prayer in school and there’ll be non-sectarianism; and it’ll be fine. Could imagine what these people would say? If their little Christian child went to school, and the teacher said, “Okay, children, here are your prayer mats. Get down on it, we all going to face East toward Mecca, get down on your knees, bend your head to the floor and recite this non-sectarian prayer.” And Christian parents would go, “No way.”

They always think that when they say, “Oh, religion is okay in the public sphere, and in government, etc.” They always think it’s going to be their religion, but you never know who it’s going to be.

Now, of course, the first people who usually are impacted are secularists. People who are atheists, who have no religion. Which is by the way, one of the fastest growing segments of the American public. Not that you would know it from popular culture or from our leaders, but it is.

Those are the first ones to usually feel the brunt of it. But it’s not always that. I tell you. When my father, neighbors, and my mother brought this lawsuit, there was a lot of anti-Semitic attacks on us. Because I grew up Jewish. A lot of the attacks were anti-Semitic in nature.

And culminated in my next-door neighbor, having a burning cross on his yard. So, I think that it so important for everyone to realize. You think it’s not going to be you. “Oh, well, I don’t mind, I’m Christian. I don’t care at all.”

It doesn’t really bother me to say prayers in school or something like that. But once you established that there is not a separation of church and state, which can’t be breached by anybody. You better watch out because you don’t know what you think. You think you’re always going to be the one in the majority, but it’s not the case.

Very interestingly, I think it was in 1785. James Madison wrote a well-known essay called “Memorial and Remonstrance Against Religious Assessments.” And what it was, he was arguing against the tax that was proposed. That would benefit only the Anglican clergy.

And he said, ‘Once you say that, that’s the way you think it’s always going to be: You in the majority, but it’s not. Things change. And my fellow Anglicans, if you think that it’s always going to be us, next thing you know, there’s going to be an influx of anybody, Quakers or whatever.’

I think back in 1785; they probably weren’t thinking Muslims, the Jews, and Hindus. But it could be an influx of people, e.g., Methodists or Unitarians, etc. And all of a sudden, the money’s being used for their clergy. And your tax money is going to that clergy.

I said, “Hey, wait a minute, you can’t do that. But you already established that you could. And that again, brings me back to Martin Luther King, that “injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” If you will allow this to go on, it’s going to hurt you, potentially… eventually. You don’t think it will. But once you establish: that’s okay to be done to somebody else. It will be okay to be done to you.

Jacobsen: Jon. Great note at the end. I’ll talk to you next week.

Engel: Okay. Sounds good, Scott.

Jacobsen: Okay. Take care.

Engel: Take care. Don’t work too hard. If you’re going to listen to me and keep your couch open.

Jacobsen: That’s right. Yeah. All right. Cheers.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 7: The Pandemicon, Pedagogy, and Politics

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/15

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about coronavirus, religion, and politics.

*Interview conducted on August 17, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So well, let’s start with COVID. What are some of the cross-sections with this coronavirus, religion, and politics, in American life?

Professor Ryan Burge: What’s actually surprising to a lot of people in America is, if you look at social media, the assumption here is that Democrats are being a lot more compliant. Not going out in public, wearing masks, social distancing, all those kind of things.

And Republicans are just doing whatever the hell they want. Not following the rules. They’re actively flouting the rules, essentially. If you look at the data, especially on the issue of mask wearing, compliance has never been higher for both parties right now.

Democrats are in the mid-90s. And Republicans aren’t far behind that. They’re like 88 percent. So, the perception in the public of this resistance to mask-wearing, especially in the case of the loudest voices, are the minority voices. And the more moderate, sensible, practical, reasonable voices are the quietest voices because they don’t yell about it.

So what we’re seeing actually is that the public is there. They’re realizing that their behavior is actually having an impact on Covid cases. And in some cases, people are actually responding to that in acting in a more compliant way.

Obviously, that cuts across religion because Evangelicals are more likely to get their information about Covid from the Trump administration. They’re actually less likely to get information from places like the CDC and public health experts.

The Democrats are just the opposite of that. They write the Trump administration low in the list. And the group that they look to, most scientists at the CDC. So you can see that this partisan divide not just overemphasizes, but the partisan divide has probably killed some people in America.

The Republicans, especially see this as government control and government trying to run your life. And you’ve been sheep wearing a mask; and it’s all made up and Democrats are much more science based. And I would say that Democrats are much more fearful of Corona and Republicans are not fearful enough in a lot of ways.

Jacobsen: Now, what about some of the more recent research on race and religion in politics? Now, I know you’ve covered some of the aspects of the metric of racial resentment. What are some other ways in which one can cut up this idea? This categorization of race in regards to politics and religion.

Burge: So when we talk about Protestants in America, we actually divided Protestants into three separate groups. There are Evangelicals, which sort of everyone knows about. The most famous religious group in America, I think in a lot of ways. And then there’s your mainline Protestants and the mainline Protestants are almost always white.

But they are much more moderate politically. They’re sort of center politically just because of taxation and things like that, not because of social issues. So those are groups like United Methodists, Presbyterians, etc. Now, there’s a third group. But this is where it gets interesting, a race standpoint called black Protestants and that’s what we call them. That’s what one of the categories called. When I use that terminology a lot of people are like, “That’s racist.”

Like, “Why are you dividing up a group of people based on their race? When they look a lot like evangelical Protestants in terms of behavior?” And that’s absolutely true. If you look at things like church attendance, black Protestants attend church at basically the same level as the Evangelical Protestants do. Their view of the Bible is very similar to black Protestants and Evangelical Protestants.

But on issues of politics, they could not be more different. 80% of Evangelicals, white Evangelicals are Republicans – vote for Donald Trump. Bottom line: immigration, gun control, taxation and everything else.

And then your black Protestant. 90%of them voted for Barack Obama in 2012 and then for Hillary Clinton in 2016. So, the main cause was, actually, the Democratic group in America, large democratic group in America.

So they are very similar on the issue of religiosity, but they’re very different on measures of politics and political ideology. And a lot of people don’t understand that the black church is a completely different phenomenon than the white church in America, because during the Jim Crow South, during segregation, Reconstruction Era, a lot of communities in the South that were black. You did not have access to social clubs.

You couldn’t go out to local restaurants and hang out with your friends or the next company. You could go to the fraternal organizations. You got locked out. Labor unions often post their labor union in your area.

So if you were a politician and you wanted to run for office, especially if you are a black politician, they would like even go to get an audience with the black church because that’s where white people basically stayed away from – because they had their own churches.

So the black church is a completely different phenomenon in American life because the black church is not just a religious center. It’s a social center; it’s a political center; it’s an economic center.

The black church is a sort of gathering place for the entire black community. And so they’re sort of different institutions on the outside. They look very similar in terms of religious beliefs and behaviors. On the inside, it’s a lot different. And so, we talk about being Protestant, being white or black. It’s dramatically different based on the color of your skin.

Jacobsen: You’ve also been posting about educational levels and religion itself, self-identified religious identification. So with the non-religious identification, individuals who have no high school. Other individuals who have the highest levels of education with postgraduate. How does this split up along different religious categorizations and non-religious categorizations?

Burge: Yeah, so interestingly enough, the more education you have, the less likely you were to vote for Donald Trump in 2016. That’s the case for white people. For non-white people, there’s no relationship between an amount of education and a Trump vote. Whether you never graduate high school or you have got post graduate degree, you’re just as likely to vote for Trump at very low levels – by the way, 30% or less.

Now, for white people, there’s a strong negative relationship between education and a Trump vote. So, for example, a white Evangelical who did not graduate high school, 80% of those people voted for Trump in 2016. But a white Evangelical who has a graduate degree, only 55% voted for Trump in 2016.

So a huge difference. And that actually holds up for the larger question. Even if you hold up for atheists too, 35% of atheists who did not graduate high school voted for Trump in 2016. But if you look at atheists who have a graduate degree, it’s below 10%.

And that downward trend is consistent for every religious group, higher levels of education, lower likelihood of a Trump vote amongst white people, amongst people of color. There’s no difference based on education.

Jacobsen: Also, in terms of sexual orientation, people’s religious identification does influence the public statement of their sexual orientation, or these identifications attract certain kinds of sexual orientations. That doesn’t seem plausible, but it is an open category of possibility as a hypothesis. So what are the numbers on religious and non-religious identification and sexual orientation? What are some hypotheses as to why these numbers are coming out this way?

Burge: Yes. So actually, I’m going to make this graph to look at the sexual orientation of about 13 different religious groups. Because I was talking to a lot of people who work in atheist organizations in America. And I came to find out that a lot of them are not straight – LGBTQ, non-cisgender. And I thought that was interesting because I know that atheists are said to be more liberal and more affiliated with the Democratic Party.

But I guess I didn’t think carefully about that piece of sexual orientation or gender orientation. So I just found an analysis about that. 95% of white Evangelicals identify as straight, which is not surprising. Right? But then you go over the Bible list and the group atheists.

Only three-quarters of atheists identify as straight and 10% of atheists identify as bisexual, 8% identify as gay, and about 2% identify as lesbian or gay women.

So atheists, about a quarter of all atheists today are not straight people. They’re LGBT. So to me, I think those two things are like chicken and egg. It’s hard to figure out the cause. A lot of stories of the conversion that people tell are directly related to their sexual orientation. Growing up, the gender orientation they grew up in a church community that was so accepting of either of those two things.

And so, they left a faith community because they felt so oppressed and so isolated by being part of that community. And so they left and became an atheist and many of them they were actively opposed to church when they thought church with them was an impediment to life and hurt them, caused trauma in their lives.

So, another sort of active campaigning against religion in America because of their personal experience. I do think those two things run hand in hand. I think atheists are a good place to land for them. Gays in conservative small communities felt bad for being gay. They were made to feel bad for being gay largely by church people. And so they’re having this sort of reaction, a justifiable reaction to that. And that’s why we’re seeing so many atheists not being on the LGBT spectrum.

Jacobsen: Now, what about the general population? What are the numbers in terms of LGBT?

Burge: Yeah, so, it depends on how you ask the question. This is actually a huge topic going to people who study sexuality, because there’s all kinds of survey things that pop up in here. We think there’s somewhere around 8% of Americans, adult Americans, who are not straight.

But we also know that when we ask people that question on a survey, they’re going to probably lie, or at least some of them will lie, especially older people. Who maybe are married to someone of the opposite gender or have kids, have an established relationship with the church, they don’t want to publicly say that they are not straight in orientation.

What we do know is, younger people are much more likely to say they’re not straight. Like I have data that says the kids, college age kids 18 to 22, at least 15% to 20% of them say, they’re not straight. But that could be experimentation. We know that a lot of people are sexually experimenting in their early years.

But now, the interesting thing is the stigma against that has gone away dramatically in the last 10 years or so. And so now, maybe, we’re seeing the true number, which is, maybe, 15% to 20% or of under-22-year-olds experiment with someone of the same gender. But then, it goes down over time.

And then once you get into the 50-year-olds, 60-year-olds, it’s 5%. So, it’s definitely a downward slide as people age, but we don’t know for sure because there’s still some stigma there that we can’t fully pull out of the survey or we won’t even see the true number for the next 10 or 15 years.

Jacobsen: Why do half of liberals, white liberals, identify as Nones?

Burge: Oh, because the God gap in America is huge. The thing is, the Republican Party, I tell everybody this. The Republican Party in America today is a white Christian party.

75% of Republicans in America today are white and Christian. Which is staggering because 50% of America is white and Christian. Only 38% of the Democratic Party is white and Christian. you can not have two diametrically opposed parties.

Now, we go back to this argument of what came first, the chicken or the egg. And the reality is we don’t know if your politics drives your religious affiliation or your religious affiliation drives your politics. There does seem to be some evidence emerging now that politics is the first cause and that it is changing people’s religion versus the other direction, which is your religion impacts your politics.

Because we do have some data that people, for instance liberal Evangelicals, left their churches or were more likely to leave their churches during the 2016 campaign than Republican Evangelicals were. Because we think it’s a bad fit for them politically.

So, we think that white liberals are being attracted to the Democratic Party, that non-white liberal Nones like the Democrats because that’s become the party of non-Christianity and racial diversity and openness. I don’t want to go too far here, but the left in America, especially white liberals in America, have sort of developed their own spirituality around progressive politics of being as liberal as humanly possible.

There’s some data now. There’s this term called “.” I don’t know if you have heard it.

Jacobsen: Yeah, there’s been some comedy sketches within some of the Latin American community around different Latin American countries. Reactions to the term “Latino” and then the introduction of “Latinx,” because so much effort was taken to even get general community support for “Latino” as a general term. And it’s a whole series. It’s very funny how this all plays out in terms of these sketches.

Burge: What’s funny to me is that I love that term “Latinx,” if you’re going to write a paper about Hispanics, you’re going to use that term in your paper. I just saw a survey in which like only 2% of Latinos would like that term.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Burge: They don’t want to be called that. But it’s like academics like have this paternal thing, “No, no, no, you are being oppressed. I can tell you. You’re being oppressed. We’re going to call you something you don’t want to be called. So, you don’t feel oppressed.”

It’s very hard. It goes on with the left in America in some ways because, for instance, there was a recent survey that said that white liberals were more bothered by the fact that Joe Biden was an old white guy than black liberals were, which tells you a lot about what’s going on in American politics. I think, which has a lot of virtue signaling.

Jacobsen: Well, it seems like non-dialogical activism. There’s no discourse in terms of “What do you see as most important, and to what degree?” And then using that information, you can build concretized activism. If you don’t have that, then it becomes very hard to represent a community in general.

Here’s one I haven’t asked you. If you have an individual who is poor, what is their most likely religious identification in America? If the person has a doctorate or the highest level of educational status in the United States, what is their most likely religious identification? Then those same questions for political identification.

Burge: So here’s the thing. People don’t realize this, but like when we talk about the Nones. There’s actually three types of Nones: atheists, agnostics, nothing in particulars. The three different groups of people.

Atheists and agnostics have incredibly high levels of education. They’re near the top now. They’re not as high as, for instance, Hindus. There’s a ton of education because a lot of them come here from the country to get education here, because in places like India, Pakistan. They’re places where Hinduism is strong.

Here’s what’s super interesting. So they’re high on the education spectrum, the highest in America. And then at the bottom of the spectrum, the group that has the lowest level of education in America is that nothing in particular. Less than a quarter of nothing in particulars, have a four-year college degree, lower than black Protestants. They’re lower than every other group.

Jacobsen: Why?

Burge: When we match the Nones together, you’re mashing together two groups with one group, and the one group is completely different than the two other groups because most people pick atheist and agnostics – because they’ve gone through some sort of intellectual pursuit of those terms of understand what “atheism” means and “agnosticism” means, what “secularism” means.

All those things. They’ve read about Karl Marx and all this kind of stuff. Nothing in particulars for a group of people go, “I don’t know.” It’s not the same thing. So nothing in particular group is this is key demographic too. This particular group is 20% of all Americans.

The atheists are about 6% of all Americans. The agnostics are about 6% of all Americans. So together, atheists and agnostics are just over half the size of the nothing in particular group. So we mash all those groups together. Look at the education of the Nones, it’s going to skew downward because of the nothing in particular group.

Usually, agnostics downward would have a high level of education. So there’s this debate going on amongst academics who study these people. “What are the Nones? Who are they? These three groups together are not a model.

They’re so different in characteristics. We don’t consider Protestant Christianity a monolith. We divide it up. We talked about mainline Protestant and Evangelical black. We probably should do the same thing with the Nones because they’re 30% of the population. They’re completely different.

Evangelicals are the middle. Mainline classes are near the top. Jews are also near the top. So, Evangelicals have gained a lot of education over the last thirty years. That used to be more true, but not less true, because a lot of them are going to college working ahead – working at white collar jobs.

Now, in terms of education, here’s something super interesting, I didn’t know until last week when I got asked by a reporter about this – to look it up. It used to be for a long, long time, as far back 1972. The average Republican had more education than the average Democrat.

And sometimes, it was significantly more like a year and a half or so, or two years, more school back in the ‘60s, ‘70s. Now, that begins to narrow beginning in the 1980’s. And now in the last two years, the lines have crossed. Now, the average Democrat has more education than the average Republican. And that’s largely because the average Republican educational attainment has stalled over the last twenty years or so around the millennium.

It’s up right about fourteen years of education, the associate’s degree, the Democrat education is continuing a trend upward. And in five years, Democrats might clearly have more education than Republicans do.

Jacobsen: Now, in other words, if someone is of Jewish ethnic background, atheist, non-religious identification as a None subcategory and a Democrat, then this individual will have far more education than any other categorization in the United States.

Burge: At the aggregate level, sure, I would definitely look to get their education level. I would say they have at least a bachelor’s degree, if not more. But obviously, there are always outliers.

So, maybe, if you never graduate high school, there are so many good jobs. It’s all over the board. But in the aggregate, you would figure someone, a Jewish person anyway, could have a higher base level of education because that’s the culture of the Jewish community. But then there are a lot of atheists that you talked about, which I think give a different level of Judaism.

But you can always have outliers. I love a plumber who reads. That’s great. But those people don’t exist very much. People sort of follow the tropes surrounding their religious and social groups.

So for Evangelicals, you, typically, read the Bible. So, that’s kind of how that works.

Jacobsen: Why are white Evangelicals the single most conservative group on immigration?

Burge: A lot of Evangelicals are living in very homogeneous communities. They live in racially homogenous communities, even politically homogenous communities. And they don’t have a lot of interaction with immigrants.

They live together like a Mexican restaurant, where there are immigrants. But beyond that, they don’t have a lot of interaction with them. And so, it’s just good old nationalism. A lot of it. Christian nationalism, which is a whole term, it’s emerging in American politics today.

The idea that America is a Christian nation and we need to defend Christian values. So, white and Christian go together. And so when we see brown people coming here, they’re making America less white. And that’s scary because that means whites won’t be the majority and lose their rights.

White people in America have a privilege that they don’t recognize, a lot of them. A phrase I use often is “when you’re used to privilege equality feels like oppression.” And white Evangelicals in America are used to privilege. And now they’re going to have to face a world where they’re equal with other racial groups, other religious groups. They don’t want that.

So what you’re seeing in America is sort of the last gasp or backfire effect of a group who knows that the end is near. Their reign in American politics is slowly coming to an end. It probably will be in the next 10 to 15 years.

And so what you’re seeing is they are like gasping and grasping and trying everything they can to hold onto the power for as long as they can. And immigration is part of that. They realize by slowing immigration, they’re actually slowing the browning of America, which is good for them.

Now, what’s super interesting is to go down the rabbit hole quick, Evangelicals have always been pro immigration for the issues of Christian persecution in other countries. We used to let in about 100,000 people in this country every year who were being persecuted for their religious beliefs in countries across the world.

For instance, Christians are being persecuted in China a lot. That’s factual, not just Evangelicals. And we’ve let them come to our country and give them safe haven here. During the Trump administration, the number of immigrants coming for religious persecution had dropped from 100,000 to less than 20,000, which is the lowest it has ever been.

Most Evangelical organizations are completely opposed to the idea and think it should go back to the 100,000 threshold that it has been for a long time. But the average rank and file Evangelical doesn’t know that. But if they did know that, they would not change their position and still would say, “Yes, we need less immigrants in America.”

So, this is an interesting disconnect going on amongst the Evangelical community, between the elite Evangelicals, the ones who run the publications and run these organizations Evangelicals care about, what the rank and file Evangelicals think, which is that “immigration is bad.” And in reality, there are some instances where it is not bad.

Jacobsen: Ryan, thank you so much once more, and I will talk to you again in two weeks.

Burge: Always a pleasure, Scott. Appreciate it.

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2022-05-15

Ask Faye 10 – Taboos to the Final Trip: Sail Away, Eh, or Nay?

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/14

Faye Girsh is the Founder and the Past President of the Hemlock Society of San Diego. She was the President of the National Hemlock Society (Defunct) and the World Federation of RTD Societies (Extant). Currently, she is on the Advisory Board of the Final Exit Network and the Euthanasia Research and Guidance Organization. Here we talk about culture keeping the ship anchored at the dock.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Even with the availability of the means by which to kill oneself in desperation or to commit an act of rational suicide, the taboos in the culture can prevent this, extending possible human suffering beyond reasonable timings.

One, what are those cultural barriers?

Faye Girsh: We talked earlier about religion and the value of Life itself, quality notwithstanding. Suicide is a taboo in both religious and secular circles. Religion sees it as an act against God who gives life and takes it away. In society generally it connotes some kind of mental illness or irrational, even selfish behavior. It is inexplicable that, if life is the supreme value (as we see in the education many doctors get) then not preserving it as long as possible is stupid or evil, but certainly not laudatory. In Ernest Hemingway’s recent biography John McCain is seen as saying that Hemingway’s suicide is understandable because of his inability to do what mattered to him. That is a pretty enlightened perspective. One wonders if McCain contemplated suicide as his brain tumor was progressing, much like Brittany Maynard did. People would argue that aid in dying, because of a terminal or incurable illness, is not suicide since the person would, absent their illness, want to live. A suicidal person wants to die, though I think this is simplistic. You raise the issue that these cultural taboos and stigma may serve to prolong suffering. The reason we have some of these restrictions on suicide is that, for some people, their suffering does ease (e.g., from the death of a loved one or being bullied by peers) and life continues. For others, whether from a chronic psychiatric condition or a medical one from which there is no recovery, indeed the suffering continues and worsens. Not providing an honorable and peaceful way out is cruelty.

Jacobsen: Two, why are those cultural barriers intimately tied to the legal structure, or lack thereof, around issues of rational suicide?

Girsh: Good question! In most civilized countries, ours included, suicide is not unlawful and is considered a medical condition that should be treated. Thus, when someone is talking about ending their lives, or makes an attempt, they are encouraged to voluntarily commit themselves for psychiatric treatment or they are committed involuntarily on a temporary hold. The assumption, realistically, is that the urge to die is a result of a treatable situation. Lives have been saved because of this enlightened position. But, assisting a suicide IS a crime which can carry a long sentence — even when the deceased person has requested — nay, begged — for the remedy. Such was the case when Dr. Kevorkian was found Guilty of Manslaughter and sentenced to 10 to 25 years in prison. Millions of people watched Tom Youk, in the final throes of ALS, begging to die and Dr. Kevorkian asking if he was sure or wanted to wait. The legal doctrine is something like, consent to be killed does not exonerate the person who “kills.” It is also not legal to tell someone how to end her life despite her pleading. This interference by the legal system has prevented doctors from doing what they — and their patients — think is appropriate and merciful. Even an act like administering morphine before removing a breathing tube to let a person die is feared by many to be a prosecutable act. The prospect of a legal complaint or judgment when working with a sick patient who dies is enough to fail to treat that patient with enough pain relief. Even civil cases are brought against nursing homes when a 98-year-old patient die. Much suffering is caused by overly broad reaches of the law where death is concerned.

Jacobsen: Three, how do culture and law relate to one another in a feedback process in change in culture leading to change in law, alteration in law bringing alteration in culture, and so on?

Girsh: As in the example above, suicide used to be thought of as a crime, albeit one hard to punish. It was done by penalizing the family, taking money from the estate, and not allowing the person to be buried in a regular cemetery, or even driving a stake through the body. These were the punishments wrought by the Church and embodied in civil law. As religious explanations were supplanted by medical theories mental illness became the explanatory concepts and the punitive measures became medical ones. Similarly it was religious concepts that dictated that pain during childbirth and at the end of life were redemptive, modern theories of anesthesia took over and suffering was relieved instead of endured. But that idea still exists around dying. There isthe religious stigma that suicide is against God’s will. It is the reason given for the millions of dollars poured into anti-assisted dying campaigns around the country. As religion plays a diminishing role in Americans’ lives, people see that the choice of how life can end may be an acceptable cultural option.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Faye.

Girsh: Thank you, Scott.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 21: “The New York Times” and Secular Reportage

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/13

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about The New York Times and reportage on the secular and the religious.

*Interview conducted on August 10, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So periodically, as this comes out in several of these sessions with you, and other (informal) conversations with you, you’ve talked about writing letters to the editor or sending in submissions to your “hometown paper” or The New York Times, otherwise known as the most influential newspaper in the English speaking world.

So, what was your recent submission to them? And why this area of focus based around all the conversations that are just simply taken for granted and happen all the time, especially in the exclusion of, at least, one viewpoint in very popular, mainstream, robust news coverage in the United States?

Jonathan Engel: Well, yes, it’s interesting. I wrote a letter to The Times this weekend. I submitted a manuscript to them. I also sent a separate letter along with my manuscript. And what I was telling The Times was that I was disappointed by the fact that The New York Times – and we’ll get to this, also much of the mainstream media in the United States even what was considered the liberal mainstream media – fails to consider secular points of view.

Now, of course, most of the articles that are written in The New York Times are secular in the sense that they’re not about religion at all. But I’m talking about something different. Because some writings prompted me to send that letter to The Times editorial board.

I was leafing through the paper, both the main news section and the reviews from Sunday, which has the bad in it. And I saw all sorts of things about people of varying religions and their points of view on things. There was an article, for example. There was an op ed in the review section, a woman who was African American, Catholic, talking about the need for Catholicism to acknowledge, sometimes, racism in the United States, and the need to be more welcoming to African-Americans and how important it is as part of Catholic theology to not be biased.

There was also an article by a woman who is Hindu about arranged marriages in an Indian culture. And again, this touched on Hinduism and various aspects of Hinduism. And of course, there was an article about Evangelicals because they’re always talking about evangelicals in this country, Evangelical Christians.

But as I was looking through it, I’m saying to myself. The New York Times, which is considered, at least to some, a liberal media outlet, and the paper of record, as they like to call themselves; they very rarely print anything from a secular point of view. So, I sent them that letter to encourage them.

So one of the things I mentioned to them is that there is now a Freethought Caucus in the United States Congress. But I found that out online. I never saw that in The New York Times. Why aren’t they talking about that? Why aren’t they talking about secular people at least once in a while?

I’ve never seen an article in The New York Times that says something along the lines of “What are secularists thinking about this election? How do they view? How do they view things in any way differently than a religious person?” And then again, I almost never see an article in The Times or an op ed in The Times that’s directly from a secular point of view on these issues.

And I’ll give you an example of a recent issue that’s come up that involves religion and public life. That was Donald Trump, who at this point is president of the United States. It’s like a fever dream. But apparently, Trump is saying stuff, antireligious stuff, about Joe Biden.

That antireligious stuff would say, “Joe Biden if he’s elected, he will destroy the Bible, who will hurt God,” which is kind of a funny thing. I didn’t realize Biden had those kind of superpowers. But of course, Trump is just babbling. But what I’m interested so much in there is Trump, who just wants to scare Americans, that if Joe Biden is president things will be even worse than they are, which is hard to imagine.

But the response of the media, especially when I was considering the response of what’s considered the liberal mass media in this country, or at least the somewhat liberal like The New York Times, like MSNBC, like The Washington Post. By my way of thinking, they missed the point and missed the mark.

Because a lot of the response was, “Oh, that’s an outrage that Trump should say this, because Joe Biden is a devout Catholic.” You see pictures of Biden in church and Biden on his knees praying, and “how dare Trump say that about Biden where Biden is a devout Catholic.”

Now, okay, I get that. It’s a lie about who Biden is, and that’s wrong and should be pointed out for what it was. But nobody seemed to point out the fact that it doesn’t matter. There is a provision of the United States Constitution.

It’s Article Six, Paragraph Three. And what it says, there shall never be a religious test for public office or any public trust under the United States. So, the framers of the Constitution specifically said there can never be any religious test for public office.

You don’t to have evolve. But a local state or counsel, whatever, says a person must swear to God. In fact, that same provision of the Constitution says that when someone takes an oath of office that it doesn’t have to be enough. That it could be an affirmation. The courts of the oath end with “so help me God.”

But an affirmation is “I do solemnly swear that I will support and defend the Constitution of the United States against all enemies, foreign and domestic.” And that’s it or you can add to it: ‘And I make this statement with full knowledge of the penalties of perjury.’ But you don’t have to mention God.

And I felt like this would have been a perfect time for the time sought for MSNBC. Somebody on MSNBC took that it was like a teachable moment for the country. Yes, it’s wrong for Trump to lie about Biden’s religion. But let’s also keep in mind that the Constitution says that there’s no religious test for public office.

That would have been a perfect time to do it. But if anybody did either directly holding the Constitution or just talking about the spirit of it, “oh, I didn’t see it.” And I read The New York Times pretty much every day. And I listen to MSNBC a lot. I go on all kinds of liberal websites like Raw Story.

And I didn’t see anybody make that point. “What did Trump say?” Of course, again, it was a lie about Biden. But also, let’s keep in mind, Biden’s religious beliefs, the framers of the Constitution specifically told us that what Biden or anybody else running for public office believes regarding religion are not relevant.

There’s no religious test for public office and nobody said that. And that bothered me. You wouldn’t expect this view on Fox News, but you would think on MSNBC or The New York Times. Somebody would mention, “Hey, but either way, this isn’t supposed to be relevant.”

When John Kennedy was running for president, all those many years ago. There were a lot of people who were against him for various reasons, including his being Catholic. “John takes his orders from the Pope.” And he gave a fairly well-known speech in which he talked about, ‘No, I am just running for president of the United States and my religion doesn’t enter into it.’

And he affirms the separation of church and state in that speech. And, boy, all these years later, and nobody seems to have learned anything from it. So get getting back to my local hometown newspaper, The New York Times, which is kind of a funny way to think of it, I do live in New York. The New York Times should be including the secular viewpoint and for the most part they’re not.

Jacobsen: When it comes to other papers in the United States of a similarly prominent view, few even come close to staking that claim. Is the conversation the same?

Engel: I think so. As far as I know, and I don’t want to speak out of turn because, obviously, it’s a big country, a lot of viewpoints, etc. But in media outlets that we consider pretty mainstream, I would say, “Yes.” If they’re not printing a specifically secular point of view in The New York Times or talking about it on MSNBC, then I can’t imagine that there are too many outlets that are doing that.

And again, the reaction from looking all over the place about the Biden incident with Trump and calling him anti-religion was, “No, no, that’s not true. That’s a lie. Biden is religious.” And as far as I know, if it’s out there, I haven’t seen it.

I am looking for somebody to show it to me. Maybe, some small local newspaper somewhere printed something about, “Hey, wait a minute, this isn’t supposed to matter. The framers of our Constitution state that it is not supposed to matter.” But if it’s out there, I haven’t seen it. And again, this is New York. As America goes, we’re a pretty secular place.

So, I didn’t see this in The New York Times. And I didn’t see it in the Daily News. And believe me, it wasn’t in the New York Post. I write something about it. That’s going into my newsletter for the Secular Humanist Society of New York. But that’s hardly a mainstream outlet, which is read by, maybe, two or three hundred people every week.

And that’s it. And so, I haven’t seen that about this issue in particular debates. But generally, The Times, I’ll give you an example. There’s a Times columnist, Nicholas Kristof, who writes every once in a while. He does a column, which is basically an interview with a faith leader.

And he makes very sure that he puts Muslims and Hindus and Jews and Buddhists and Catholics and Protestants and Evangelicals and non-Evangelicals into the interviews. To the best of my knowledge, he’s never had an interview with a secular leader to talk to them about secularism. It’s not considered.

One of the things I said to The New York Times in my letter was that The Times should not participate in perpetuating this particular form of discrimination by treating atheists and other secularists as if we didn’t exist. And that’s kind of the way they treat us, the way we get treated. And we’re a lot of votes; we’re a lot of people.

And the basic way of treating that in the mainstream media, even in The New York Times, is to ignore us and pretend that we don’t exist. It’s like when people say something like, “We all worship the same God.” Many liberals will say this. Of course, we don’t, because some of us don’t worship any gods at all.

But they say it because they think that’s a liberal point of view. And it’s just ignoring millions of people of this country, people like me. And it’s about time, I think, that stopped.

Jacobsen: When there’s some of the language used on interbelief panels or discussions on some of these similar issues, it’s hidden in the language, too. One thing I’ve noticed for a long time is the use of the term “interfaith.” To make this truly equal, it would be an interbelief framework. Some beliefs have few premises.

But particular beliefs, or in general, we’ll have some kind of framework. Some of those will require faith. A small minority of them won’t. So when I look forward to the future of these discussions, I try to pitch, sometimes, very gently about “interbelief” panels, discussions, etc., rather than interfaith.

Because interfaith, especially in the post Bush Jr. Era with “Faith-Based Initiatives,” implies religion in theism or deism rather than agnosticism or atheism or otherwise. So, do you notice this as well? Some of these other small terminological issues that do kind of belie a certain hidden culture.

Engel: Yeah, I, definitely, see that all the time. You can see “interfaith.” The whole point is curious, because the whole point where people say, “We’re going to have it,” and say it. An interfaith meeting to discuss police brutality or an interfaith meeting to discuss racism or something like that, they are leaving out seculars.

I think their intent is to include everybody. But there’s just this blind assumption that interfaith includes everybody. And, boy, it sure as heck doesn’t. Because it doesn’t include me. And I think it doesn’t include you. But I want to tell you, something that gave me a little bit of hope.

In the beginning of this year, I participated in a panel in a high school, a public high school in New York City; they had a panel of religious people, religious points of view. And there was an imam and there was a rabbi and there was Catholic priests and there were several Protestant denominations and also like Universalist type things.

But they also included me. They had reached out to me. I guess they found the Secular Humanist Society, our website or something. And they reached out to me and I participated. And I was with the kids, high school kids. And I was able to express my points of view. And it was pretty cool, and it was very interesting.

But I thought that was a great step. It’s not the type of thing you see very much. But you got to hope for it, every once in a while. And that in that case, they didn’t just say, “OK, we have the Muslim, the Jew, the Catholic, the Protestant, the Hindu, the Buddhists, we’re covered.”

They also brought in an atheist speech and I thought that was a little bit of a ray of hope. But I do think you’re right. I think you see this idea of interfaith things all the time as being, “Oh, that’s such a good thing because it involves everybody. That’s the whole point. And the truth of the matter is, you and I know: if you’re doing an interfaith anything, it doesn’t involve us.

Jacobsen: And there’s always the critical question that comes to mind for me: “Why is faith a virtue?” By what you mean, why do most Americans consider faith a virtue? Or why are most Americans talked into the idea that faith is a virtue, belief without evidence is a virtue?

Engel: Boy, that is a great one. That’s one of the things that drives me a little crazy once in a while. The assumption that a person of faith and a religious person is what I would call that, because I have faith in something. And if I get into a cab, I have faith the guy knows how to drive.

If I go to the doctor, I have faith in the doctor that she’s a board certified physician and that if they’re looking at my eyes or they’re looking in my gut or whatever part of my body is looked at, I have faith that they know what they’re doing. So the word “faith” was turned into religion.

The word “religion” was turned into the word faith. I think it was in order to bamboozle open talk about the faith based initiatives. That if Bush wants to open up an office of religious based initiatives, somebody might have said, “Hey, you can’t do that.”

But faith based initiative, somehow, that’s okay. This is the idea that somehow because the person believes in something that isn’t there; they’re a better person than me. I’ll tell you. I always think about the movie Miracle on 34th Street. There’s a scene in the movie where the lawyer played by John Payne is talking to the little girl played by a very young Natalie Wood.

And she’s talking to him about common sense. And he said to her, ‘Don’t you see, faith is believing in something and common sense tells you not to.’ And whenever I see it on TV, I yell at the screen, “No, that’s delusion!”

One of the things that I talked about fairly recently, where did Americans learn not to believe in science? Because we’re having this terrible disaster with Covid, and a lot of it comes from people’s refusal to believe in science.

And I said, “Well, where did we learn? Where would Americans learn not to believe in science?” The answer to me is in church, in synagogue, in temple, in mosque. That’s where they learned that believing in something for which there is no evidence; it’s one of the best things a human being can aspire to.

Jacobsen: Yeah. I can echo that with the Canadian example. I wrote the most comprehensive article by a long shot. I’m examining pretty much every personality or organization or coverage of creationism in Canada. If you look at the “creation science” associations in Canada per province or otherwise, all of them or like 99% of the presentations that the individuals who are part of these organizations give, where do you think they have their all or 99%+ presentations? It’s in the churches.

So, this isn’t religious in general. This isn’t simply a religious framework of things, where people are generally believing with these faith-based belief systems. It happens in particular with one religion. It happens with the Christian religion. And I think that’s a pretty strong branch. It’s not all of it, but it’s a big branch of it.

But it’s not just the temples and the synagogues and the churches. Another branch, that is the New Age stuff, or “newage” as James Randi calls it to rhyme with “sewage.” And a lot of that stuff that just happens in general culture. In British Columbia, there’s the initialism about the spiritual but not religious (SBNR) people.

They are part of the formal academic repertoire now in terms of research. And they have a lot of the nonsense beliefs, but at the same time; they don’t have a formal religion.

Engel: I take this back to The New York Times. Many years ago, I suppose this is about 20, 25 years ago. A spy was caught. A guy name who is actually an American. This wasn’t a foreign spy; this was an American. His name was Aldrich Ames. And he was spying for Russia.

And if we catch the Russian spies spying, we usually exchange them for an American spy that we have over there. But you got an American spy for Russia and you’re going to prison for a long time. Everybody knows the guy’s still there. But the reason I bring him up is because after he had been caught, it was all over the newspapers.

There was an article, front page article in The New York Times that said “U.S. Charges Present a Paradox: the Pious Spy.” And they were saying, “Oh, he attended church every Sunday and he was a deacon in his church,” or something like that.

And they interviewed the church members and they say, “Oh, we can’t believe that our friend Aldrich Ames was spying for the Russians.” And the whole point that the article was how incredible it was that someone who could be so religious and still betray his country.

Why do you automatically think that a person who was religious wouldn’t do something that most of us consider really ethically wrong? Where is the connection between how pious a person is and how ethically and morally they act?

Because when you look at it and realize there is no connection between those things. And yet the article wasn’t even making the point that there is a connection. The article made the assumption that there is that connection, which is not only just factually wrong. But what’s going on is, you’re wrong in your own eyes.

But it also is denigrating to people like you and me, who I know – and I’m sure you know – like to consider ourselves as being good people and having morals and ethics. And yet the assumption is that somehow somebody who’s religious and has religious beliefs, that automatically they get the head start.

Or what we automatically assume there, they may find out that they’re not really ethical and moral. But we give them that head start that is not given to any secular person.

Jacobsen: I want to expand it a bit more to the idea of ethics as simply how one human being or operator interacts with another human being or operator. So, an ethic is by its nature social. Unless, one of the only creatures alive in the universe or the last person on Earth that one has to consider, then solipsism makes sense where only ego is ethical, so (Ethical) Egoism makes sense.

Outside of that, it’s a variety of other ethics being taken into account or it becomes pathological. So this is the old question about ethics as a larger framework on that idea, where it’s not about “if ethics…” It’s fundamentally a question of “What ethic?”

And so when it comes to even murderers or members of the KKK or members of the Nation of Islam, who will say or do egregious things in their own respective ways. They’re not going to define themselves as a bad person. They’re going to define themselves as, and the things they do generally as a, good. They won’t say, “I’m a murderer,” or, “I’m a white racist,” or, “I’m black supremacist.” These sorts of things.

They’ll put it in the best of terms in regards to how they see the world. So, they will see themselves as ethical people, as in good people. And I think that’s the generous view of looking at a religious person when they state, “I am a religious person.”

What they are trying to convey to people, who are not of their religion or who are non-religious, is, “I am a moral person. I am a good person.” So, I understand what they’re trying to say. I don’t think they understand how they are being heard and understood. That’s the big difference, I think.

But certainly I think you’re right on that other frame. It comes across as highly offensive to many people who define themselves as secular humanist or otherwise, when someone says, “I am a religious person,” as in “I am a good person.” Because the logical implication, non-religious people, secular people, etc., become non-moral, non-good, and that’s offensive.

Engel: Yes, absolutely. And there are also practical considerations for that. Someone who gets convicted of a crime. Maybe, we’ll have, at sentencing, someone speak for them. That now, “Yeah, he made a mistake. But we should be lenient because he or she really is a good person.”

The court generally will accept the kind of testimony that says they go to church every week. [Laughing] ‘they go to church.’

And we also know, and we’ve made a little progress in this area. But we also know that frequently when a crime is committed that involves drugs or alcohol. If you go to Alcoholics Anonymous, which is a religious organization, one of the steps is acknowledging a God, acknowledging a higher power.

They’ll say, “Okay, if you go to Alcoholics Anonymous, or if you go to Narcotics Anonymous, meetings, as long as you keep attending those meetings, I will meet you. So, that you keep your parole,” or something like that.

There are now some groups that have started around the country that are like, alcohol support groups or more narcotics support groups for people who are not religious. Now, I haven’t done the research, so I don’t know if courts will accept that.

But only as much as they would accept the traditional Alcoholics Anonymous. But again, you get that privilege. It is an area of privilege. It’s funny. We talk a lot about how it’s important to have the conversations that we’re having in the United States now about white privilege when it comes to race.

But there is a religious privilege to that, I think. And people think, “If, at least, some white people are looking at their privilege in the United States and saying, ‘Well, that really should be the case rather than this.’”

But it hasn’t shifted to religion, yet, where people who are religious are saying, “I have a privilege as a fact of being religious. Religion gives me a privilege in this country, which isn’t deserved.” And nobody’s talking about that, except, apparently, you and me.

Jacobsen: John, it’s been a longer session. And I have another session coming up.

Engel: It was a good one this week.

Jacobsen: Hey, thanks so much, sir. Appreciate it.

Engel: Take care now. Bye.

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2022-05-15

Ask Faye 9: Moirai, or the Allotter, the Spinner, and the Inflexible

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/10

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What comes to mind when people who have outwardly good lives kill themselves?

Faye Girsh: When a person seems to have everything to live for: health, love, money, stability, an interesting life. Anthony Bourdain comes to mind. His death seemed to be a tragedy. So did Robin Williams’ death until his Lewy Body Dementia came to light and then it was easy to understand how he must have been suffering from confusion, brain fog, and depersonalization.

His brand of quick humour must have been impossible to continue. He apparently never discussed it with anyone nor did he belong to a right to die organization that could have informed him of a “better” way to die. I have two good friends who killed themselves, one by jumping off our tallest bridge and one by shooting himself in the head.

Both were attractive, bright people in what seemed like perfect marriages and loving families. One in the care of a very capable psychiatrist. It may be that Robin Williams’ case illustrates how little we know about what goes on in people’s heads and hearts and how much suffering they have endured before making the decision.

We use the term “unbearable suffering” as the criterion for eligibility to get an assisted death (in most countries, not the US) but I would have to imagine that these people, like Robin Williams, did find their lives unbearable.

They had the idea that there was no way out and no treatment or solution other than death. These, to me, are suicides that don’t make sense and are tragic — but I must reserve judgment since it is easy for me to say.

I also had a friend who killed himself and his demented wife for whom he was the caregiver, somehow that seems rational and understandable, though terribly sad and a waste. Two other older friends killed themselves because they were so deeply in debt — as we later found out — that they would have been evicted and homeless.

Another couple wanted to leave a large sum to their church, so they ended their lives. These deaths seem “elective” and do not, on the surface, make sense to most people but then some people put a higher priority on other things than living.

Jacobsen: How can different circumstances and groups suffer from suicidality differentially?

Girsh: This recent year where all of us were isolated was not good for mental health, whether children’s or old people’s. We caused one public health crisis in the service of preventing another. Losing your job and not being able to feed or house your family is another situation leading to despair.

We know in India when crops were failing many farmers drank fertilizer and died. The latest stimulus bill in the US had the express purpose of preventing a public health crisis of depression and suicide. Another group at high risk of suicide are people with gender dysphoria who see themselves at odds with their families and society.

When attitudes change and they can be comfortable with who they are they are no longer at risk. In the past few years, the stigma of homosexuality was lifted probably resulting in many lives being saved. In some other countries such is not the case.

Veterans in the US have a high suicide rate and it does appear to lower when their health, housing, and vocational needs are addressed.

Jacobsen: Some fear mass suicides or increases in suicides if legalization of dying with dignity moves forward. Does the evidence support this claim?

Girsh: We do see an increasing use of assisted dying in places like Canada or the Benelux countries but these are people who would have died a natural and difficult death or people who would have “committed” suicide because of long-standing psychological problems.

When the book Final Exit came out, with explanations of methods of humane “self-deliverance”, the author, Derek Humphry, said that the number of suicides did not increase but the number of violent, lonely deaths went down.

In countries like Japan where suicide is an acceptable, if not honorable, way to die the rate is fairly high and is lower in Catholic countries where it is a sin.

Jacobsen: Thank you, Faye, for the opportunity and your time.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 20: Gratitude, Thanks, Good Tidings, and Cheer

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/04/10

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about Thanksgiving.

*Interview conducted on November 23, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Ok, so, this will be a session for Thanksgiving. So our topic today is gratitude, not towards some thing, but about things. In particular the basics of life in most societies being food, we can add shelter and in a modern society, the ability to read, literacy. So, what are your thoughts about Thanksgiving as a time for gratitude without the need for faith? Just a nice time to enjoy life and be grateful.

Jonathan Engel: Yeah, it’s always been and still is my favorite holiday. Partly because it’s not really a religious holiday. I mean, some people make it so because they say they give their thanks to a deity or something like that. But there’s no requirement for that.

And certainly, didn’t stand from any religious, particular religious, tradition, more like a harvest’s tradition where you celebrate the harvest. Now, of course, most people like me, I live in the middle of the biggest city in North America. I’m not a farmer.

But there’s still a certain it’s still nice to have that day where you take a step back and eat. And you think about again, I like giving; I don’t have gratitude to a deity because I don’t believe in any deities.

But I do understand quite well that I am fortunate. That I have a roof over my head, and I have enough food to eat, and a few bucks left over for this and that. And I have an understanding that not everybody does. And so to me, it’s nice to intertwine those things.

Those on the one hand, yes, I do feel fortunate for what I have, etc. But also, it’s a good time to remember the people who don’t have much. And to do what you can, maybe, it’d be a donation or something like that to a group that helps people. There are various other ways that you can give back.

But also remembering, part of it is just trying, I don’t want to be political about this necessarily. But trying to elect people who understand that that’s an issue, that’s a problem. And that this is something that, in my name, I want addressed.

The number of people who lack literacy skills in this country is large. So, basically, that means people can’t read and write. Essentially, it’s what you would call a shanda, a shame for our country that we allow such things to happen.

And that we don’t care enough about our fellow people. And that’s not a religious thing. It bothers me that a lot of people who are religious and assume that they care about other people. And that sort of benefit of the doubt is not given to a secularist, an atheist like me. But I do.

I think it’s important, again, to take a step back and say to yourself, “What can I do to make this place better?” Because not only if you help your fellow person, especially in something like this, especially when you talk about children, you’re talking about nutritional needs and educational needs. You do that.

And not only will you be a good person, and help the individual, but society benefits so much from having people who reach their own potential because when they reach their potential; it helps everybody else. And so, I think it’s part of the reason why I really like Thanksgiving.

But it’s not necessary for me. I don’t give thanks to a deity. I can give thanks to people I know. Like my wife, for my kids, they help make my life really worthwhile and help make it what it is. But there’s no artificial deity up there whose doing these things.

You want to thank God for the food, while I can thank the farmers for the food. And I can thank everybody else in the food supply chain for the food. And I’m just grateful that I have the money to buy the food. But I also understand that there are people who don’t have that.

And it’s important to remember them. And so, like I said, do what we can to try to ensure that this doesn’t happen anymore, that every child in this country gets a quality education. Every child in this country has enough food. Because kids, the lack of nutrition is a serious, serious problem in this country.

And a lack of nutrition means that a child won’t be able to learn. You can’t learn if you’re hungry. You can’t learn if you live in this homeless shelter, it’s very difficult. My wife teaches some kids whose families are living in shelters. It’s very chaotic and very difficult.

And it’s something that we as a people should commit ourselves to change. That’s how I feel about it. In this country, Lyndon Johnson started what he called the war on poverty in the 1960s. But at some point, I guess, maybe in the Reagan 80s, it seems like we just surrendered.

And said, “Oh, well, we can’t do anything about that.” That’s a load of nonsense. It takes a will and a belief that it’s important to do it. And if Thanksgiving is the day that reminds me of that, then I think that’s a good thing. I think every so often we should be reminded of something like that.

But I don’t want to get too austere about it. I like Thanksgiving, too. I don’t overeat. Maybe, at least a little bit, but also just spending the time with family and all the rituals that we go through.

There’s certain music we listen to on Thanksgiving. There were TV shows we watch on Thanksgiving. Because it’s just Thanksgiving and that’s what we do. And there’s a certain continuity that has a kind of nice feel to it and doesn’t have to be associated with religion.

Jacobsen: John, thanks so much.

Engel: It’s my pleasure, Scott. Listen, you take care.

Jacobsen: Thank you. You, too. Take care. Talk to you next week.

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2022-05-15

Ask Mandisa 59 – Americans and Autonomy

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/19

*This was conducted May 25, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Some points to cover today. One of those would be values differences in America that can lead to far more negative outcomes compared to a lot of other countries in the world. There can be outliers in some countries with other values.

In generally, though, if we are looking at trends, the high value Americans place on autonomy can lead to negative outcomes for the population compared to other countries that have an emphasis on equity. What is the feel?

What is the sensibility of Americans around the value of autonomy? How does this not prepare Americans, when everything is privatized, when a calamity, a catastrophe, or a pandemic make the God concept something people lean on more heavily?

Mandisa Thomas: There are a lot of people who are still struggling. There are people who are either completely out of work, or their places of employment are at decreased capacity. Also, you have many whose jobs are deemed essential, and are still engaging the general public – which is stressful at this time. Sadly, there are quite a few people who, in typical American fashion, only care about what is best for themselves. And with little to no regard for the safety and social distancing measures.

What is important to them is being able to get the things they want at their convenience – which puts the rest of the population significantly at risk. Because we are still in a state of emergency when it comes to the pandemic, these folks don’t take into consideration that there are other people whose lives are at stake.How it plays into religion and the God concept: it is the sense of being superior, and that this being made these individuals so special that they will not be affected by this epidemic. So, it gives this overinflated sense of importance.

Considering the number of religious folks who have succumbed to this virus, this notion proves false. And it definitely compels a general lack of disregard for other people’s lives.It is unfortunate that there isn’t more of a community based mindset. It’s like we’re dealing with a sink-or-swim as a mentality, which accounts for why the United States, in addition to not taking proactive measures, is seeing among the highest numbers of COVID-19 in the world.

Jacobsen: What is some of the commentary from members of the public? Are there any news clippings, quotes, or stories that tend to come across more often than not?

Thomas: Well, the New York Times ran a story of the 100,000+ people who have died from the virus in the United States. While it seems like a small number compared to the rest of the population, it’s still a lot of preventable deaths.

It is impactful because we see the current administration ONLY looking at numbers. And these are actual people. Whether they went through the healthcare system or not, contracted the virus, and didn’t make it, these are family members and friends. They still mattered at the end of the day.

These are people who deserve to not be viewed simply as a statistic because of either the administration and/or the general public’s limited scope. We can take lessons from certain officials, like the Governor Cuomo of New York, who wants the spread of the virus curtailed, and is actively taking the steps to do so.He says, ‘God didn’t do this. The people did it.’ We are also ironically seeing a number of religious organizations taking to online platforms to host services. The pandemic has impacted their fundraising, as is the case with most organizations.

However, it is important for most of them to understand that safety is the primary issue here. Also, they need to consider that those few bad apple ministers and churches not following the safety guidelines makes them ALL look bad.

If they were a little more conscious of that, then they would, and should, be speaking out against them too.

Jacobsen: Now, there is an argument if we’re taking a several centuries long view. That livelihoods have improved for most people. I think that’s a valid argument. At the same time, there’s another argument looking at ethnic disparities and sex and gender disparities, in the access to resources, job opportunities, and quality of life from cradle to grave.

If we look at both of those narratives together in this context as well, we know in the African American community, in the black community; there are disparities, critical disparities compared to other subpopulations in the United States.

Now, religion, as you noted to me, is a big part, in particular Christian religion, is a big part of the black community, the African American community. How is that conversation amplified in that subpopulation, especially the subpopulation who are Christian impacted by deaths and despair by the coronavirus?

Thomas: So, I HAVE noticed a lot of organizations catering to the religious population, and are now trying to tailor their products to state, “Hey, God wants us to be saved”, and similar phrases. There’s an unfortunate irony here when we’re dealing with an institution so prevalent within the black community, and an increase in the COVID-19 related deaths.

It is as you mentioned before. It is due to a lack of resources and inequities in the healthcare system, along with many people’s mistrust of the medical field, and wanting to pray the problems away. This type of change cannot happen overnight.

What we’re seeing are attempts to catch up with technology in such a short amount of time. If this had been the focus for churches at least ten years ago, then perhaps it may not have been so severe. And there is a lot to be said about how they could have definitely availed themselves to technology way before then. But this means possibly having to admit that their God is not as powerful as they once thought.I DO want to be mindful about shaming people about what they may not have know before. Because when you’re dealing with populations and people who are highly religious, which is common among white populations as well, you’re dealing with the concept of change being difficult. It is best to take objective steps and showing care, empathy, and concern, and framing it in a way that is best for the entire community as opposed to a few individuals.

The churches are going to have to set the the divine intervention premise to the side for the moment, and say “Hey, safety first.” Even if you want to believe or pray to God, your personal safety and the safety of your families and the general public are crucial, and should be prioritized.

Jacobsen: Mandisa, as always, thank you.

Thomas: Thank you.

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2022-05-15

Ask Mandisa 58 – Capacity Limits and a Social Conscience

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/02/17

*This was conducted May 18, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are some things people should keep in mind around reaching out to secular organizations about having a sensitivity about people being on the other side and organizations having certain capacities?

Mandisa Thomas: It is important to understand many secular organizations, like Black Nonbelievers, are still recent and growing. We are still trying to build solid foundations, particularly with community, and visibility. We understand many who leave the church may feel “burned” by those experiences and are jaded by the fact that they contributed a significant amount of financial resources without much in return.However, we cannot do our work without the support of the people. It doesn’t come out of the sky, and we still need more people to donate regularly. For BN in particular, it is harder to tap into those who have deeper pockets (five figures or more). We hope to reach that point and, receive some substantial endowments in the future.In addition to financial support, volunteering time and efforts helps us provide a more solid foundation for our organization.

Jacobsen: You do have discounts for students without particular resources, e.g., students. What do you not have discounts for, even though people may think that you do?

Thomas: For our events, we do offer student rates. This is because students are usually on a limited income and budgets. Their means are not as great as someone who may be working full-time, or may have more disposable income.Recently, I was asked about a senior citizen’s discount for our 10th Anniversary Celebration. I understand many senior citizens are also living on a limited income, however, in order for us to provide that subsidy, we would need more people supporting our events and the organization.Like students, we want more senior citizens (or as I say, folks of a more “mature” age) to attend our events and seek to be more accommodating. But that depends on who is willing to help in that area more, including as individuals of said age group. Far too often, we have people who utilize our resources and utilize our community, but still overlook the fact that we still need financial support in order to operate at a level that will be enjoyed by everyone.

So. we hope that EVERYONE is mature enough to understand this and prepare, especially since we send out the information within a considerable amount of time. If someone automatically asks for those types of discounts, we hope that they take into consideration the amount of time, monies, and other resources placed into our events, and our overall work.

Jacobsen: Is this a bigger problem for organizations that are appealing to populations in the United States who don’t have a significant pool to draw from, e.g., organizations like Sikivu Hutchinson runs, Women of Color Beyond Belief Conference, or Black Nonbelievers?

It’s a different context when as per the demographics of Pew Research and others. The number of black nonbelievers is increasing, but is still a superminority within that relevant demographic group. Is that exacerbating ordinary problems that you’re noting?

Thomas: That’s part of it, but I also think it’s where priorities are placed. People from minority groups who are so used to embodying suffering think (at least it appears), that when we create organizations and events, that they automatically come with enough resources to accommodate free admission. As much as I hate to say it, there are enough black atheists and enough members of Black Nonbelievers to sufficiently contribute to the point where we can have a working budget of five figures and more.No one is trying to get rich off this organization – definitely not me, and I will not allow anyone working directly with to “cash in” off of us. However, if the representation and the work that we do is truly appreciated, then this SHOULD be paid work. Oftentimes, we see a number of black atheists who come out of religion, and are looking to emulate the same style of leadership. They want to be the next atheist “Messiah”, the next spokesperson. To them, it seems that organizations like BN are so easy to get off the ground, and the teambuilding and teamwork is severely underscored and overlooked.Also, one does not need to be rich to support our organization. Even if you are of a limited means, contributing a few dollars a month or even a year helps a lot.

Certainly, we appreciate those who donate, and make up for those who don’t/can’t. But there are definitely more people who need to step up. I never write us off as being incapable of support or coming together, but more people need to understand why it is crucial to support us on a regular basis. We can truly uplift each other – especially through this religious climate.

Jacobsen: Mandisa, thank you as always.

Thomas: Thank you.

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2022-05-15

Interview with René Grigori: Media Liaison (Spokesperson), Southern California Chapter of The Satanic Temple

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/02/05

René Grigori is the Media Liaison (Spokesperson), Southern California Chapter of The Satanic Temple. Here we highlight the work and activities of the Southern California Chapter of The Satanic Temple.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the story of coming to TST for you?

René Grigori: I was born into, and raised by, a Catholic family. Most of my schooling was in Catholic schools. Religious studies were paramount in High School where we were being trained as though we were in seminary. All throughout this time I was constantly questioning and doubting the doctrine of the religion.

Throughout most of my life I dabbled with the esoteric. I’ve always felt drawn to those things I was told are forbidden. I studied a number of esoteric matters: Theosophy, Order of the Golden Dawn, Ordo Templi Orientis, Laveyan Satanism, and Buddhism among many traditions.

As an adult I’ve been a staunch Atheist. I joined one Atheist group and, due to internal conflicts, I founded another group called the Riverside Atheists and Freethinkers (RAFT). Throughout much of this time I noticed a lot of cliques forming within the Atheist community. After some time the fractures I saw led me to consider altering where I stood on certain matters. In time I turned the group over to a triumvirate leadership allowing me to step out of the grind and give more thought to how I wanted to develop as a person.

Prior to turning the group over I had been hearing about The Satanic Temple(TST), and a number of their escapades so I decided to look into their religion a bit more. I was also checking out something called Secular Buddhism at the same time. Sadly, the folks promoting Secular Buddhism kept getting into the supernatural (something that I tend to avoid). However, everything I saw in TST just clicked for me: their mission statement, the 7 tenets, the literary perspective of Satan as the noble hero, etc…. Eventually, I decided I had to join and get in this religion. So far, it seems this was the best decision, aside from marrying my wife, that I ever made.

Jacobsen: How do most in Southern California tend to come to TST?

Grigori: I think every person’s introduction to TST is unique. Some have come, initially, out of curiosity (like myself), others may have seen the documentary: “Hail Satan?”, still others may have been involved in other Satanic traditions and migrated to TST because it better aligned with their values/mindset.

Jacobsen: For The Satanic Temple Southern California, you are the authorized spokesperson. The first thing standing out about TST Southern California is the logo remains much the same with some variation in the overall design. Why this particular design for TST SoCal’s logo? Who designed it?

Grigori: Our logo design was a group effort. We were provided guidelines by TST’s International Council (IC), and one of our Division leaders worked on crafting rough drafts for the rest of us to comment on. Eventually we arrived at something we were all happy with.

Side note: due to the large geographic area our Chapter covers we have broken areas down into Divisions. There are five Divisions corresponding to Ventura County, LA County, Orange County, San Diego, and the Inland Empire. The Chapter leadership and each of the Divisions are run by triumvirates.

Jacobsen: The seven tenets of TST non-theistic Satanism are as follows:

1. One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.

2. The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.

3. One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.

4. The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one’s own.

5. Beliefs should conform to one’s best scientific understanding of the world. One should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit one’s beliefs.

6. People are fallible. If one makes a mistake, one should do one’s best to rectify it and resolve any harm that might have been caused.

7. Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

When you first came to TST, what were some of the appealing aspects of the tenets guiding the core philosophy of non-theistic Satanism?

Grigori: So prior to joining TST I was quite discouraged by the fracturing I saw in the Atheist community. I think that fracturing was due to nobody having a concise set of guiding principles; Atheism simply a matter of not believing in any gods. I realized that being part of a group with guiding principles was important. When I initially read the tenets all I could think was: “Wow, these tenets encapsulate my thinking perfectly.”. The tenets advocate for compassion and empathy, respecting the autonomy and freedoms of others, they advocate a science based approach to beliefs and knowledge, and there is an emphasis on being responsible for one’s own actions. This all thrilled me.

Jacobsen: TST SoCal has the following as a description:

The mission of The Satanic Temple is to encourage benevolence and empathy among all people, reject tyrannical authority, advocate practical common sense and justice, and be directed by the human conscience to undertake noble pursuits guided by the individual will. Politically aware, Civic-minded Satanists and allies in The Satanic Temple have publicly opposed The Westboro Baptist Church, advocated on behalf of children in public school to abolish corporal punishment, applied for equal representation where religious monuments are placed on public property, provided religious exemption and legal protection against laws that unscientifically restrict women’s reproductive autonomy, exposed fraudulent harmful pseudo-scientific practitioners and claims in mental health care, and applied to hold clubs along side other religious after school clubs in schools besieged by proselytizing organizations.

Obviously, these are more highly active forms of combatting theocratic mentalities and encroachment in schools, in politics, in disciplines in mental health, and scientific literacy in the public sphere. This differs from a number of other groups in which the emphasis remains on base community building and having a sense of common cause, internally. TST takes this externally. What have been some of the forms of activism externally by TST SoCal?

Grigori: So, we do foster community building within our Chapters and associated Friends of Groups (FoGs). Also, because of our tenets we have a sense of common cause. Our external efforts are simply a manifestation of our community’s shared values.

TST SoCal’s primary external focus has been on charitable works. Recently we wrapped up our Toasty Toes campaign where we collected socks, toiletries, and other items to help the homeless during the winter months. We ultimately contributed over $2,000 worth of goods to a variety of charities with that campaign.

Currently, we are focused on another charity drive we are calling: “The Devil’s Food Pantry”. So far we have raised over $1,000 in food goods that we will be donating to St. John’s Episcopal Church in San Bernardino. We collaborated with them in the past with great success and we hope to keep this relationship thriving.

That being said, we are certainly open to any national campaigns sanctioned by the IC. However, charitable works are something we can do all of the time.

Jacobsen: For those things not tackled, yet, what are the concerns in SoCal in regards to the encroachment of theocratic mentalities and activities in the public sphere? Are reproductive rights a big one?

Grigori: Yes, reproductive rights are incredibly important to us. Not only matters like access to abortion, but also the general care and welfare of people which is often overridden by religious objectors. As an example: a cis woman who may want a hysterectomy might be told by her Christian doctor that she should consult with her husband first before the doctor will proceed with any surgery. It should be that person’s decision alone and not anyone else’s; it’s her body after all.

Additionally, we strongly support the LGBTQ+ community which has been marginalized and outright attacked by more evangelical groups. The first event we did as a newly formed Chapter was a march in the San Diego Pride parade. During COVID, this past year, we hosted a virtual Pride for our members. People who respect the autonomy and freedoms of others should always feel accepted; gender identity and sexual orientation should have nothing to do with how we treat, and care for, our fellow human beings.

Jacobsen: There are a number of rules for TST SoCal members. These are great, pragmatic, and common sense solutions to some issues for minority religions, especially non-theistic ones, who already have enough stigma in the United States and don’t need infighting or (more) bad reputation/bad assumptions about them. I have to ask, “What necessitated the creation of the SoCal formulation of rules to you?”

Grigori: Many of our rules are derivative of our tenets. However, there are a number of rules which are there simply to protect our community. The act of identifying ourselves as Satanists can oftentimes lead to scorn and ridicule. So, we work to provide our members with a safe and loving community both online and off.

Jacobsen: The current coverage for TST SoCal: San Diego, Inland Empire, Los Angeles, Ventura County, and Orange County. With those covered, what was the chronology of formation? What are the general demographics, even a qualitative analysis of them?

Grigori: Each of our Divisions started out as Friends of Group (FoG), which are basically groups aligned with TST, but are not officially recognized as Chapters. The long story short is: the IC decided that it might be best if all of the FoGs in SoCal organized under one Chapter. We all agree to that and when the IC granted us Chapter status each of the individual FoGs became a Division within the Chapter.

Our Chapter is incredibly diverse with BIPOC members, LGBTQ+ members, members living either in chronic pain or disabled. I don’t have a breakout of percentages because it is not our objective to manage quotas, however, it is our goal to accept people who align with our tenets and consider themselves to be non-theistic Satanists regardless of their unique makeup; to that end we have a Diversity Committee responsible for ensuring we are open, welcoming, and mindful of the varying mix of members within our community.

Jacobsen: What seem like the next reasonable steps in a) expansion into new divisions and b) combatting other forms of anti-science and theocratic mentalities acted out in the public sphere?

Grigori: With regard to expanding into new Divisions: there are always ongoing discussions as groups outside of our coverage become interested in joining. At this time, there is nothing officially in the works for TST SoCal, but that could change in the future. Our Chapter Heads act as liaisons for several FoGs and our Chapter has good relationships with other Chapters; especially those in Northern California.

As far as combating “anti-science and theocratic mentalities acted out in the public sphere”, we address those on a case by case basis. At the moment, we are all abiding by the best scientific guidance regarding COVID-19. We keep the majority of our discussions online and we’ve had to adapt our rituals to conform to an online format. However, when and where it is safe and makes sense to do so, we will be there to fight the good fight for science based practices and religious plurality in the public sphere.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, René.

Grigori: Thank you. I appreciate the thoughtful, and well researched, questions. It has been a pleasure.

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2022-05-15

Ask Takudzwa 32 – Freer Expression and the State in Zimbabwe

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/01/31

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Article 61(4)(a) of the Zimbabwean Constitution (2013) states, “All State-owned media of communication must… be free to determine independently the editorial content of their broadcasts or other communications…”

How does this influence some of the editorial decisions of the “content of their broadcasts or other communications”? In short, is there a boundary between finances provided by the State and the broadcasting content freedom of the producers of content?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: There is a fair degree of freedom of the press in Zimbabwe. State owned media does give a platform to diverse worldviews and it has never stood in the way of secularist opinions.

Jacobsen: Article 61(4)(b)-(c) states, “All State-owned media of communication must… be impartial… and c. afford fair opportunity for the presentation of divergent views and dissenting opinions.” Are there any other legal or infrastructural frameworks providing the stipulated impartiality and fair opportunity for Zimbabweans?

Let’s say an issue on secularism was being presented to the public, and then the religious leaders and spokespersons were provided the opportunity to come forward and present their case, would a divergent and dissenting view be permitted or sought, e.g., an atheist or a humanist group?

Mazwienduna: The government has actually encouraged secularists to speak out both on national radio and in newspapers. The only instance where freedom of the press is compromised is when it comes to criticism of the government itself. The ruling ZANU PF party has a totalitarian approach to governance such that they crush any opposition with every means possible.

Journalists who criticize the government might go missing or face arbitrary arrest without being given proper legal representation as the current case of Hopewell Chon’ono who is in jail for exposing the government’s corruption or cases like Jestina Mukoko and Patson Dzamara who were abducted and never found again back in the Mugabe days. Other than that, freedom of press is allowed as long as it does not compromise the ZANU PF establishment.

Jacobsen: How does this level of free expression compare to adjacent States: South Africa in the South, Botswana in the West and Southwest, Zambia to the North, and Mozambique to the Northeast and East?

Mazwienduna: Our Northern neighbor Zambia however is not as tolerating to secular views. They even have a ministry of religious affairs. The president of the Zambian Humanists Association Larry Mukwemba Tepa has talked about how Zambian government transitioned from a Humanist approach when Kenneth Kaunda the Civil Rights icon was president in the 1960s and 70s to the theocratic approach it takes today under Edgar Lungu.

The state of secularism in Zambia is at an all time low and it is the worst case scenario in the SADC region. South Africa and Botswana on the other hand are beacons of light upholding both secular and liberal approaches. They are successful democracies not only in the SADC region, but in Africa.

Mozambique on the other hand is an interesting case. The main religion in our Eastern neighbor; the Zimbabwean border town to which I’m native to and grew, is African Traditional Religion. Unlike the totalitarian nature of monotheistic religions like Christianity or Islam, animist traditional beliefs encourage more tolerance.

They have an understanding of how everyone has different beliefs and so embrace diversity. Secularism has never been a problem in Mozambique because of this lack of organized religion and so different views face no opposition in the papers.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

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2022-05-15

Interview with Hari Parekh: Volunteer Regional Coordinator, Europe Regional Committee, Young Humanists International

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/01/29

*Interview conducted October 2, 2020*

Hari Parekh, has worked in the field of psychology for over four years. He obtained his BA (Hons) degree in Psychology and Criminology at the University of Northampton in 2015, and his MSc in Forensic and Criminological Psychology at the University of Nottingham in 2016. He has worked for the student sector of Humanists UK, holding roles of President and President Emeritus. Following this, he is the current European Chair/Volunteer Regional Coordinator for Young Humanists International, and the Volunteers Manager for Faith to Faithless. He is consistently invited to universities to talk about the psychological difficulties relating to apostasy. Here we catch up and reflect on Humanism in the UK and in Europe.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, so, we have done an interview before. We have known each other for, at least, a couple of years or of each other for a few years now. We are both deeply involved in our own national humanist and skeptic communities and scene. There’s a lot of context and interwoven networks.

I thought I’d reach out and get a retrospective of Humanists International and Young Humanists International happening virtually this year due to the current pandemic. You are the European Working Chair or the Regional Committee Coordinator. What were some things that have stood out in the youth humanist scene in Europe?

Hari Parekh: So, Europe is very lucky in relation to activism within Humanism. In that, there are a lot of fabulous people doing a lot of great work from Germany to Norway to Italy to Spain to Lithuania, Poland, even parts of Russia are calming down.

There’s a lot of good work in relation to nationalistically highlighting injustices within one’s own nation and then being able to highlight it. The rights of people who are LGBTQ+ in Poland and Lithuania at the moment are quite stark at the moment.

There is a lot of good work happening by activists to highlight the issues that then causes. The reason why we’re lucky, though, within Europe, we are able to work or act, or demonstrate, or do things in activism, without the worry of being sentenced or killed, or abused, as a result of it.

The legal consequences are much lower than the ramifications in places like Africa, Asia, and the States to be fair. As a result, there are pockets in Europe and the UK who are doing formal good work. I think in a country like mine. The issue: How do you bring unity to people that aren’t able to come to together in that way?

A lot of activism done in Europe or singularly are the way things have been. What are we going to rally towards? Because it is a difficult question about purpose and the point of activism in Europe. If we’re not having the stresses of being killed, it creates a problem with people doing good work uniformly while creating a different question.

A lot of work is being done that’s good. It is doing more together; we have only just started.

Jacobsen: In regards to some of the political landscape and social landscape seen in different areas in Europe, they do stand out to someone coming from North America because the news sources continually report on issues around LGBTI equality in various areas, in other words regression.

We can think of Orban in Hungary with direct attacks on some of these fundamental tenets of not only human rights, but also Humanism. As well, the political instability around Brexit and the kind of impacts this has on young people’s futures, not only in the United Kingdom, but other countries impacted by the detachment of a major country connected to the European Union, previously.

Parekh: I think what we’re seeing from a bird’s eye view is a lot of the way things are or the politics of the way things are people becoming more and more jaded by the way establishments or organizations have acted when they are in power.

As a result, the growing sense of concern creates a growing sense of “What about me?” and this has filtered itself within the consciousness of European nations and people within it. You can see where that comes from in relation to the difficulties people have now, e.g., inequality is high.

People below the poverty line are increasing daily. What is going on about it? People need to understand why that might be, where that comes from, and how that becomes a thing. Interestingly, therefore, politics and the consensus of public opinion has moved to become a lot more individualistic and nationalistic to protect one’s own before looking after others.

I think that’s, technically, where the culture and the themes of this are going. Interestingly, on top, nationalism, itself, isn’t a bad thing; individuality, in itself, isn’t a bad thing. It has just been used by people of certain dispositions to inculcate hatred, annoyance, further hatred and violence against people of the other.

It has been usurped by people in that way. It creates a climate of unrule and unrest, and ultra-swarthiness within society. You only have to look at the way leaving the European Union from the UK’s perspective has marginalized people, marginalized families, marginalized people beyond its dreams and still continues to do so.

Again, the issue politically, socially is a very sad one, which is, basically, the argument. When we’re in that sensitive climate among people in that sense of frustration, the values of human nature or the values of human roles, or the values of anything like that, then also struggle in itself.

It’s like, “What is going to happen now? What are European nationals going to do in the UK now?” I think it is a very sad state of affairs for anybody involved. Interestingly, there used to be a rise with that.

You only have to look at Poland to reasonably see what’s going on. From a really specific perspective, it is going through a transition one can only lament.

Jacobsen: Now, how is Humanism in the United Kingdom managing this political unrest, internally? For the United Kingdom, internally rather than the region, how is British Humanism managing the political and social unrest in and of itself?

These are factors impacting people’s lives, impacting on the status of respect for science, respect for human rights, and trying to build a culture of scientifically and compassionately informed public policy.

These are a lot of issues that are being just ignored, basically, in public life or in the larger public life in the United Kingdom. I could imagine a lot of British Humanism is taken very seriously. Although, it has been a whirlwind.

Parekh: Even moving through Humanism, I think it provides non-religious people in itself, in the greatest respects, with the perspective of something to hone in on. I think it provides a lot of normal religious people with the perspective that there is an issue here relating very strongly to the values that we hold dear, whether scientifically, rationally, etc.

I think the concern, from an outsider looking in, is the bottleneck of the people that are involved in that at the moment. The diversity and the way that those groups function and run at the moment. There’s a certain type of non-religious person that goes to those local groups at the moment.

The older generation of, generally, white religious aren’t going to it. So, there’s still a lot of work for non-religion in relation to reaching out to a wider audience of people and being more involved to get those people’s views in, but the current climate has provided a greater opportunity for non-religion in the UK to be more understandable rather than being a bit hooey.

In that, rather than being seen as being on the circumference of society, for example, there has been a real good point of putting those values cherished of science and ethical standpoints at the heart of these debate to really understand what is going on.

Now, whether those views are taken as serious, whether those views are understood by others, whether the views are accepted by others, the point: as long as those values are represented in the conversations, then that’s half the battle there.

Strength through the Brexit debate; strength through the coronavirus pandemic. Those are the values coming through about a sense of community, support. That seems to be where I’d put it at the moment.

Does it give us a bigger role to play? Yes. Does it give us more scope to do more stuff? Yes. Are we in a position where we are doing all we can do with it? Slowly, we’re getting there. As you know, non-religion within nations has a very push-and-pull relationship.

As it peaks, we will take advantage of the peak. As it troughs, we build ourselves back up again. That is the peak when it comes to it. I think we’re in a good place for it. It’s not as invisible as it used to be. There are more and more people talking about these issues.

There are more and more people of a diverse nature talking about these issues as well. That always helps. We’re moving non-religion or Humanism from its stereotypical view of being a Westernized, white agenda, when it isn’t. It is hardly that.

Jacobsen: I should note. Humanism and Ethical Culture, and similar philosophical orientations, are much, much older in the United Kingdom than in other countries. It has a longer tradition there.

So, it has real roots in a lot of modern thought becoming a legitimate tradition in that sense. It has a lot more ability to catch in the culture because it has been around in the culture. It has steeped in the stew longer.

Do you think that has helped alongside some of these divisive figures and divisive ideologies coming forward, ethnic or otherwise, political, etc., in the United Kingdom? In terms of people looking at them, “I don’t want that,” and looking for more universalistic and naturalistic viewpoints with Humanism and the like.

Parekh: It does help. If a perspective is always able to intertwine itself in a culture, then it will always do better. You only have to look at the way an organized religion like Hinduism seeped itself into the culture to see it.

You can, therefore, see its popularity within that nation-state (India). Humanism here in the UK is a notion of people know it exists. People know that it is around. People know that a lot of the public figures these days are aligned to those values and ethical principles.

Those public figures do a good job, at times, of talking about those views to get them out there. What I think is still an issue is the threat response to non-religious people in general anyway, I don’t think that really changes.

Threat response to a non-religious person within Nigeria or within Lagos, or in the Philippines, to here. It may not be as extreme. However, the reaction and the threat is still not that different. That is something even with the longstanding traditions of British Humanism, and how long it has been there; I think that will sadly still be a part of its acceptance and judgment on it.

So, yes, does it help? Of course. Does it allow people to understand or allow public figures to talk about it freely and get the word out there? Yes, it does. Does it still have the issues the other nations have? Yes, it does, but just not as extreme.

It is still a stress response to be a None. I think what I am trying to say is being somewhat morphed into the traditions of a nation doesn’t make it accept you within the culture of the nation. I think there is still a long ways to still being accepted, perhaps.

Jacobsen: What about the 18-to-35-year-olds? The youth culture of Humanism. Because if you look at the old guard, who are no longer with us, in fact, people like Bertrand Russell. People like Albert Einstein in some respects.

Figures who are seen as towering philosophical or scientific, or political, figures really imbibe humanist principles without necessarily wearing that badge at all times and all places. For instance, Einstein is quoted as an agnostic, as an atheist, as a pantheist.

It depends on the person he is talking to and the point in his life. That is a very different Humanism, the old guard Humanism, compared to the newer brand of Humanism. There’s just a lot of different people from different types of backgrounds coming into the fray, which is showing its universalism in practice.

Now, that the principles have been more established and have more of a traditional stance. How do you see this playing out in the next few years for youth humanists?

Parekh: The 18-to-35s are an interesting bunch because we’re the ones pushing those boundaries. I think that really there is an argument there. I was talking to someone not too long ago. The discussion was, “Do they want a society in which religion is no longer a thing? It is just Humanism or non-religion, then it runs its course. The way the 18-to-35s are making it.”

As is shown, my research is showing non-religiosity is increasing. Is that the kind of trajectory that we’re going with religion? Religion not dying out per se, but becoming less of a feature, for example. I don’t think so.

I don’t think that’s the way Humanism or non-religion should be hoping for or expecting. It is a very personal view. My view: So long as non-religion or Humanism, or people leaving their faith, has acceptance (for that perspective), that’s all that one could ask for.

There are more and more and more religious people who are quite happy with the view or quite soothed or stable or alright with the view of people in relation to faith and non-faith, etc. I think it’s that acceptance that we should be working towards, not just domination of the landscape.

With the acceptance that we can engender, again, there’s no issue with being religious at the end of the day. It is an ideology the way non-religion or Humanism is. It’s what you do. If you have an ideology used for hate, that’s the issue.

If we can reduce the level of threat people find within religious communities, then there won’t be much of the same issue in relation to blasphemy. It won’t be seen as such a bad thing. Therefore, we’re progressing from the old guard of religious people threatened by people leaving.

That’s where my view is where things can go. For the 18-to-35s, more people are able within that age range, for example, to identify the way that they want to or share the way that they think their beliefs are.

To be fair, that’s a great thing. It is a very Nawaz-ian view of things, where religion needs to adapt itself as we go along rather than sticking to its guns. So, that’s the projection, I think. The more acceptance we get; the more likely we are to have a standing within society and to be okay with that.

That’s part of the battle at the moment: Are we represented? Are we not? Are we heading into a bottleneck? Are we not? The more we are accepted than we are at the moment. That’s when those discussions dissipate because we’re alright with it.

That’s where those religious people have gotten. Because we’re all waiting for acceptance. I think it’s exciting, definitely.

Jacobsen: I have a worked a bit in terms of having some dialogues, some interbelief dialogues, with individuals who work as ordinary theologians, moderate people, who take their ideological stances and belief structures in a serious way, but not in an externally imposing way.

The proselytizing, the fundamentalism, isn’t truly part of just the way that they act in the world and believe in regards to their religion. Those people and individuals in Canada and elsewhere are extremely important in combatting very serious issues of extremism, whether along political-ethnic lines such as white supremacism and neo-Nazism or in the forms of religious fundamentalism, as such, including more extreme versions of things like Jihadi terrorism.

These kinds of outgrowths of extreme ideologies that lead to bad behaviour. What do you think are some of the importance(s) of taking those middleground(s) of belief leaders – let’s say – of religious communities to build a network, a safety network, to kind of put up a wall and prevent young people, traditionally men, from entering into these toxic ideologies – ethnic, political, or religious?

Parekh: I think it’s really important for non-religious and humanist people to take part in those discussions. Not just for the soul reason of being included, but also for the opportunity to show: We’re still human.

I think at the grounding of all the faiths out there, all the religions out there, etc. The need for humanity and the need for that principle, usually, comes out and trumps a lot of stuff within the religious faiths as well.

We only have to look at the way communities have joined together during this pandemic to see humanistic values, from the Dawkins perspective, trump the differences of religion and non-religion.

If we take that perspective, then it’s imperative to involve all those groups in the discussion. It is not simply supporting and taking part, which are all good things. We are role modelling the fact that just because you’re non-religious or humanist; it doesn’t mean that you’re not a good person or a bad person.

We’re, basically, taking a step to argue that we don’t fit that narrative of what religious ideologies have idealized non-religious people to be like. The moment we’re able to do that. Then we’ll be able to work with those community leaders in how non-religious people are seen, treated, and shunned, and see how non-religious people are treated as a result.

So, if we can change the religious people to reach the level of threat of non-religious people, then we can, hopefully, support the community leaders when they talk with their communities and see how non-religious people are all bad.

Some people when they leave their religion take a lot of stuff with them. It is not as though they become the embodiment of Richard Dawkins or Christopher Hitchens. With regard to extremism and things like that, again, it is one of those where humanity needs to prevail.

So, whatever perspective you hold, religious people, community leaders, and co., will be against anyone who wants to harm anyone else anyway. They do a lot of work now, anyway, to stamp that out.

From my perspective, it is reducing the level of perspective of the threat of non-religious people at the moment. It is getting to the point of non-religiosity as being quite acceptable. Once it is normalized, that’s part of the issue.

Jacobsen: What has been your experience with the youth humanist community, on an individual level, on a social, communal level?

Parekh: Lovely, there’s such a broad range of people with different experiences and different perspectives. You’ve got people who are going to university. You’ve got people brought up in the same way, who are passionate and driven to do amazing things and incredibly intellectually bright and fabulously driven.

Young humanists throughout Europe, for example, are all really dedicated, enthusiastic, and really interesting, lovely people to be around to be fair. They’re quite a bunch [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Will we be seeing more of you in the coming years?

Parekh: We’ve got the first conference. You’ll have seen me through that. I’ve got a campaign. I think with the research head and apostasy. I don’t think I’m going far.

Jacobsen: What should people keep in mind for this conference coming up? What happened at this inaugural European Humanist Month with the lovely, wonderful, and great, Young Humanists International?

Parekh: So, the issue with Europe, as I said at the start, with the activism is it’s very hard to get people together with “What do we do together as a whole?” There is a consensus of being in a good position of activists not getting killed. We are not in those positions.

Therefore, it creates a bit of apathy with respect to activism as a whole. When I started in Young Humanists International for the European sector, the problem was “What do you do?” I struggled for a year toying with this: “What is the point of activism in Europe as a whole when we don’t have these issues?”

When I released my research in January, 2020, I realized there are many nations in Europe still holding blasphemy laws. The problem with that is that’s seen as hypothetical when we challenge other nation-states, especially within the Middle East in relation to their blasphemy laws.

Because the response given often right away is, “What leg do you have to stand on when you still have them?” I think that’s a poignant point. People aren’t being killed. They are being fined. “It’s just a fine. What’s the big deal?”

The issue is it matters in principle. In Europe, we have talked about the traditionalism of Humanism. With all of that history, the fact that we had these outdated laws is a real principle issue. What I then did, I was talking to the UK branch of Humanism saying, “Guys,” when the pandemic started, “We don’t need to ruin it. Let’s just push it online.”

Every Wednesday in October, on the 7, 14, 21, and 28, we have a speaker on LGBTI+ issues, apostasy issues, and looking at blasphemy as a campaign, which we are running now. Hopefully, we can hand this onto the next nation of Humanism, e.g., Belgium and then Norway.

So, every nation-state annually holds an online conference with speakers that matter to them. It is really important that we do it and are sharing that young people doing good in these areas. So, we can get people excited about doing things that matter to us.

It is the first thing that we did in Europe as a whole for 5 or 6 years together. It makes it even more special.

Jacobsen: What helped bring these groups of individualists, as a culture, to an individual event for a month?

Parekh: “What helps is showing these are issues important to young people now, why wouldn’t you want to be a part of this?” It worked. The last event was on a campaign. On the first point, I realized that in Northern Ireland; they still have a blasphemy law.

Basically, the last event of the conference is informing our members that this is a campaign young people in Europe can support or run against. I think in 2008 Gordon Brown did it. Northern Ireland are still lagging in that.

My argument is if we can run a campaign this year, then there are other nations with these issues anyway. It gives Europe a purpose to stand behind. Whoever takes after me, at least, it gives them a standpoint and a purpose to do the job and to have a portfolio and template for Europe rather than being told, “Good luck.”

There is an annual conference. There is a campaign against blasphemy laws. It is enough for anyone taking this position within a year. I am very proud and happy with the support among Humanists UK for all of the work that they have done.

Hopefully, we have set a template. Basically, this is a 5-year plan for European Young Humanism, “How are we going to do it? How are we going to manage it? This is what the next person is going to do.”

When the next person of YHI comes in, then they can know what to do. It is a really good way to leave Europe rather than passing the buck.

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2022-05-15

Extensive Interview with Jade Webber and Chalice Blythe of The Satanic Temple: Co-Chapter Head, TST Albany; Former Member, International Council

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2021/01/23

*Interview conducted June 6, 2020.*

*A number of interviews have had processing delays for a number of reasons. Apologies to both audience and interviewees in advance. These interviews, in terms of the information & crystallized views of the period – and the respect to the individuals taking the time to converse with a stray Canadian, will be progressively published now.*

Chalice Blythe is a former Member of the International Council of The Satanic Temple (TST). Jade Webber is Co-Chapter Head of The Satanic Temple Albany (TST Albany). It is a “non-theistic Satanic religious organization and IRS-recognized church.” Its fundamental principles amount to seven, as follows:

One should strive to act with compassion and empathy towards all creatures in accordance with reason.
The struggle for justice is an ongoing and necessary pursuit that should prevail over laws and institutions.
One’s body is inviolable, subject to one’s own will alone.
The freedoms of others should be respected, including the freedom to offend. To willfully and unjustly encroach upon the freedoms of another is to forgo one’s own.
Beliefs should conform to our best scientific understanding of the world. We should take care never to distort scientific facts to fit our beliefs.
People are fallible. If we make a mistake, we should do our best to rectify it and remediate any harm that may have been caused.
Every tenet is a guiding principle designed to inspire nobility in action and thought. The spirit of compassion, wisdom, and justice should always prevail over the written or spoken word.

Here we talk about the personal stories and views of Webber and Blythe, including the Albany Chapter of TST (TST Albany), various forms of activism, Christian Nationalism, and resources available online and in community.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Jade or Chalice, what is some background in religion for you, whether individually or within community? How does this tie up with The Satanic Temple?

Jade Webber: We were not theistic to begin with. My mom let me find my own way. I have tried literally every religion. I got books from the library. Nothing really fit with me. I ended up falling on atheism for a long time.

Then I want to say around 2017. I, accidentally, found myself at the headquarters in Salem at The Satanic Temple. I went back to Albany and thought, “Man, I hope something like that is around here.”

That’s when I joined TST. That’s my story.

Chalice Blythe: Yes, my backstory is pretty basic. I was generic Christian. I don’t even know what sect we were, very generic. We followed the New Testament. It was, “Meh, we don’t care about it.” So, I didn’t learn about the Old Testament until much later in life.

I came into TST later in my teen years. I knew I wasn’t a Christian since I was 11. I stuck with atheism for a while. I looked into other religions. I was very familiar with Satanism by reading The Satanic Bible by Anton LaVey [Ed. Anton Szandor LaVey, born Howard Stanton Levey], who founded the Church of Satan.

I read that when I was a teenager, in fact a few times over the years. I didn’t identify as a Satanist until TST came along in 2014. The reason for that was I knew the foundations of Satanism. I agree with a lot of Anton LaVey had set up with The Church of Satan.

For me, I had hesitated identifying as a Satanist because the way The Church of Satan had some political views and antiquated views towards women. It didn’t flesh well with me. What we understood to be modern Satanism was understood at that time was how the Church of Satan was defining it, so, I was fine with being an atheist.

Discovering The Temple of Satan in 2014, and reading the tenets, and knowing the way in which they evolved what we understood as modern Satanism, and how this was applied to not only how we were affirming out rights in society, but also taking away the restrictions and the views from antiquated times, it spoke to me.

I like to say, “Satanism was my coming home religion.” It just made sense.

Jacobsen: What about the current context of religion in the United States? Religion in the United States has been an outlier in all developed nations. Its level of religiosity. Its kind of religiosity. It has been so powerful as a social and political force.

One could look at it as an economic force simply looking at the wealth with the megachurch pastors, for instance, and the Prosperity Gospel preachers and other grandiose personalities or outright charlatans. What is the response of The Satanic Temple to this political context of many people’s lives in the United States?

Blythe: Our response has been that we’re obviously against the encroachment, and abusing the separation of church and state. They’ve, essentially, violated that. What we have found, people are very much about this encroachment with a mentality of us versus them.

People’s rights being over others until the Satanists demand their rights be respected as well. What you’ll see TST has done, we are not being trolls. We are not demanding special rights. We are demanding our rights are respected as well.

What happens as a minority religion, especially one such as Satanism, you remind people as a religious group, as a religious people, that you have the same rights as others. Then it makes people think about what rights.

They’ve been sitting on privilege. That their rights are better or their ideas about the world. They have the majority. So, it means that they’re the law of the land. But the way of our country should be based on the Constitution.

There shouldn’t be any person ruling over another. So, when you have Evangelicals claiming that they should get special treatment, they think that they’re the majority; so, it should benefit them. It does benefit them. They don’t realize that it should benefit us, as Satanists, too.

It is asking people whether they want those special treatments to be upheld and go into effect because what will benefit an Evangelical Christian will benefit a Satanist. A good example is the invocations campaigns.

At city council meetings, they have a moment of silence or a prayer before council meetings. When we ask to partake in that, that’s when everyone had their foot out, “How is this possible? A Satanist wants to come and give an invocation. This is just for Christians.”

Jacobsen: Ha!

Blythe: It’s like, “No, no, this is not what this should be about. You don’t get exceptions or special treatment, especially under the law.” That’s not what it should be. We have been challenging that concept and that encroachment, not only highlighting the encroachment happening, but also showing their tactics and how they go about it.

Because they can’t get around it. They want to insert themselves in the public forum. We can do that with them.

Jacobsen: What is the interpretation when you’re making an equal rights argument? To me, it makes perfect sense. In the United States, religious privilege is enormous. So, if someone is saying to a Christian, fundamentalist Evangelical Christian, for instance, “I believe Satanists deserve equal rights with Evangelical Christians, whether for invocations or otherwise,” how is that interpreted?

Both in the responses Evangelical leaders are giving or in the rhetoric they bring to the pulpit regarding “Satanists.”

Blythe: Usually, they state we are not a religion. This becomes an argument about what constitutes a religion. For those of a theistic viewpoint, first, they try to get us on the fact that “you don’t get rights because you believe in a literal Devil and eat babies.”

Then you tell them, “That’s not at all what we’re about.” When you say you’re atheistic, then they state that since you’re atheistic; you aren’t a religion. They try to argue their way out. It is never about their response to the equal opportunity/equal rights argument.

It is always about “you aren’t a religion” argument. Because we are atheistic Satanists. They want to point to us as a hoax; and, atheism isn’t a religion. Atheism is not a religion; it is the lack of.

But because we have an atheistic viewpoint, we use the literary figure of Satan, which doesn’t make us any less of a religion. Going back to the invocation example, in Scottsdale, Arizona, we, recently, just got in a case.

A case went before the court. The court established that we are, in fact, a religion. We didn’t get the outcome that we wanted as far as Scottsdale getting away with what they did. One of the things that court established was that we are a religion.

In addition to getting our tax ID status, we are a religion. They can no longer use that tactic. It will be interesting to see how that goes moving forward. The court system with Jane Doe and reproductive rights.

Now, they can no longer have that tactic. I don’t know what tactic they’ll use since we’ve been affirmed. We are not only affirmed because we say we are affirmed. Now, we have the courts validating that as well.

Jacobsen: How is this played out in micro in Albany, Jade? The conflict between the way you’re making arguments for equal rights based on recognized federal status, for instance, and then the way this is heard by those they would deem the opposition either by themselves or others.

Webber: For the most part, our community has been fairly open. Albany is kind of forward thinking. So, when we interact with the public, we haven’t had pushback for a lot of conflict as far as that. It hasn’t been a real effect for us.

Jacobsen: What are the issues in Albany, even in a progressive area?

Webber: Our issues: The one that we are currently facing. I’m not sure if I am supposed to speak on it, as it is currently ongoing. Other than that, there haven’t been major issues.

Jacobsen: Chalice, you did a famous interview with Jim Jeffries. You have interviews elsewhere. Also, you’ve had longstanding work, which is almost unique with direct opposition, in an area where there isn’t a lot of pushback – which is the minds of children.

So, you ran the After School Satan program. Two questions there: What is the After School Program or programs? What is the development of them now?

Blythe: So, After School Satan clubs are meant to contrast with what is going on in the school system now with the church groups coming in and establishing a presence as an after school club in utilizing their placement there to evangelize children.

They use those children to recruit and proselytize to other kids. When you have something like that, when you look at the purpose of having after school clubs, there is a lot of need for there to be activities through the schools. No matter what that is.

It is also a form of childcare as well. A lot of parents rely on after school programs to take care of one extra half hour or 45 minutes for after the school day to go to work and then come and get their kids.

What we have been seeing with the Good News Clubs, the childhood evangelism fellowship has a goal. They have a goal to get into the school system. It is where children see things as “I go here to learn. Anything that I learn here is true.”

They also use these school teachers the children are dealing with during the day and then they have them as the teachers leading the Good News Club at night. The kids are not differentiating between school fact and what they are learning at the Good News Club.

We are talking about old school people who believe in fire, hell, damnation. They are teaching the concept of sin. If you disobey or if you don’t do something that you’re supposed to, then it is a sin. You can go to hell for sinning.

These are the things children are learning. That was made possible by the Supreme Court because the school grounds are a limited public forum and these groups have every right to be there to express for their First Amendment rights.

The After School Club is meant to contrast and provide a program based on science, logic, reason, and to teach the curriculum developed by people who have Master’s degrees in education. One of them through Harvard University.

It is meant to not be a religious teaching program, but one developing kids’ ability to understand empathy, reason, critical thinking, logic, science, and learning about the world. We feel that by being able to provide that; it is something the parents have the ability to decide, “I want my kid to be in an after school program, but not evangelized and taught that they will burn in hell forever if they sin.”

They can have a kid in a program like ours, which teaches the opposite and is the opposite. We are not proselytizing. We are merely providing an alternative.

Jacobsen: In the United States, the major fault line is not stated as often as it should be, especially around the efforts to repeal things, e.g., primarily women’s bodies. It is particularly women’s rights that are under attack. They have been for a long time.

I note a lot of the attacks in the United States with the Trump Administration have been attempts to restrict the access women have to abortion clinics and the various forms of reproductive healthcare, especially the women who tend to most need it: Native American women, African American women, and poor white women, in general.

I know there are clinics that are more plentiful than abortion clinics, for instance, which are, essentially, Christian centres that work to talk women out of getting abortions in the first place or to provide misinformation, so an individual woman can make an informed consenting decision about what to do with her body.

What are same counter forms of activism TST is providing along these lines as well? Because this is a very serious area of human rights violations.

Webber: They had this court case going back-and-forth with this one member (TST). They were standing up for a girl who was giving out pamphlets, which she had to review. They would not give her care. Unless, she reviewed these documents, which were stating their values, e.g., “Life begins at conception,” etc.

Blythe: What TST has done in the realm of reproductive rights is utilizing our own tenets of our body as inviolable subject to our own will alone and basing our care based on the best scientific knowledge available, we have exempted ourselves from some things our state has mandated onto us and for our ability to have access to this medical care, which we feel is not only scientifically illiterate but unnecessary for that care, so violating our religious tenets.

So, in the case of Missouri, where we had the two cases for reproductive rights, they have a 72-hour mandatory waiting period. Plus, they have to give anybody seeking an abortion a reading of state propaganda (basically) with life beginning at conception and that getting an abortion is against “Creator.”

It is shaming women out of making a decision. This is what you were talking about earlier with these pregnancy crisis centres. They pose themselves as being medical centres. They provide ultrasounds.

They say that they’re a clinic for anyone who is pregnant, but they’re truly set up of people of strong religious persuasion. Their entire goal and mission is to prevent women from making informed decisions.

They shame them into making a different decision about their medical care, which they would otherwise would not if they had access to actual medical information. Essentially, it is state-mandated ‘information,’ giving scientifically illiterate information.

We don’t need the 72 hours to contemplate this information, which we know to be false. We should not be subject to reading the information. We should not be subject to have the 72-hour mandatory waiting period, which is the excuse they use to have it.

Saying, “No, I am making a medical decision for myself. You are going to give me this procedure now.” We had two members of TST who gave the exemption letter. We have the exemption letter. It is available online and anyone can review those if you want to see what those look like.

But we’re saying, “Because of our religious views, we are exempt from these rules.” So, one of them is a case still in the court system delayed because of coronavirus. It is in legal limbo. Everyone is in legal limbo.

Also, there are fetal burial laws. I’m not sure if you’re familiar with those. Indiana and Arkansas have passed laws requiring healthcare facilities to bury or cremate fetal remains. That would be any fetal remains, even an ectopic pregnancy or a miscarriage.

They are requiring at the women’s expense or the care facilities expense to treat this tissue as an individual and requiring us to treat the tissue as an individual to get burial or cremation rather than seeing it as medical waste and being disposed of as such.

We’ve created an exemption [Ed. many exemptions extant here: https://thesatanictemple.com/pages/rrr-campaigns] to that as well. Because it violates our religious beliefs that this tissue is separate from our bodies and treat it based on the best scientific knowledge that we have rather than treating it as a religious ritual, acknowledging it as fetal tissue.

For a fetal burial, it is fetal tissue. We will treat it as medical waste. Also, the State cannot make mandates that we have a religious ritual for something that we aren’t acknowledging or otherwise wouldn’t do so.

Those are some things that we have done about this encroaching or this barrage of these Evangelical senators and lawmakers coming in and telling women, and people of childbearing potentia,l what they can and cannot do with their bodies and medical care.

Jacobsen: This is a remarkable level of encroachment.

Blythe: Oh, it’s more, a violation not encroachment.

Jacobsen: The mentality sounds as if not only that women are lesser than, but the idea that women are unable to make an independent choice. It’s the idea that women aren’t rational, moral independent actors. It requires all this infrastructure, “Are you sure?”

All of these are the question, “Are you sure?”, in various forms.

Webber: I experienced this for the past five years trying to get my tubes tied. They keep telling me that I’m too young. I should wait. I said to them, “People younger than me can make the decision to have a child, which is a lifelong decision.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing] That’s a brilliant response.

Webber: I’m 30 now. I’m going to go back and give it another try.

Blythe: I had a really bad health emergency. Essentially, I was growing a tumour the size of my fist inside of my uterus. For the longest time, I said, “Get the hysterectomy, I don’t want children. I’ve been saying it for years.”

I’ve known this since I was in my 20s. Every single time, I go to my gynecologist. I make sure that he noted every single time when I got my annual, “I do not wish to have biological children. I will, at some point, when you guys allow me to, make me permanently unable to have children. I made this choice. I know what I’m talking about.”

They refuse. It is always age. It is always, “You’ll change your mind.” I started developing a tumour. I started to bleed to death leading to hemorrhage. I wanted them to do a procedure, a hysterectomy. They refused. They did an embolization, which ended up saving my life.

The reason they did that because “You’re still so young. You may want childrens ome day.” It’s like: The embolization was killing part of my uterus. The tumour is no longer growing, but I still will develop cancer.

I’ll have to get examined for a very long time for the tumour to grow back. Then they will eventually let me get a hysterectomy. But when I was in a state of actively dying, I asked them to save my life with a hysterectomy.

But they did it so I kept some of my uterus. With the embolization, I can get pregnant, but the damage to my uterus is so bad. I could get a miscarriage and bleed to death from that. Again, whether it’s our decisions to end a pregnancy or to make it so we do not have a pregnancy, it’s too full.

You cannot make these decisions when you get to this state, a pregnancy. But we are not going to provide any education in the system and make it difficult to get contraception or sex education.

It is a disservice and even more of a disservice of whatever community; the racial disparity and access in education is absolutely devastating.

Jacobsen: This ties very well – and thank you both for sharing – into an entertaining and effective of activism to combat these that, I think, The Satanic Temple does better than anyone in the United States. One has to do with the Ten Commandments in big old stone tablets followed by a statue of Baphomet. We’ll cover that next.

But the representation of the fetus as a fetish or a fetish item, or an object of fetishization. This was a brilliant presentation around adults who are members of TST or friends of; I’m not sure who was who.

They were dressed up with baby faces, diapers, pouring milk on one another, and making whining noises that would simulate something like a crying baby or a newborn, for instance.

These are dramatic. These are artistic. These are very effective because they force the question. “Why do they do this?” I think Chalice, you were part of it.

Blythe: Those were two demonstrations by the former Detroit chapter. Those were the brainchild of the Detroit chapter. It is no longer a chapter. They are a friend of. With the departure of Jex Blackmore, that chapter went dormant and no longer existed.

It was a collective effort of a chapter that no longer exists. I could get you in contact with the person who created those, Shiva Honey. She was the mastermind behind those demonstrations. They are more localized chapters that made demonstrations.

They were incredibly effective. So when we talk about activism, especially with what TST has done in the past or what we are currently doing, I think we are very good at having two different types of conversations.

It is making a point in two different ways. One is making a point via the theatricals. You have the women and milk. These are shocking. They shock your senses and make you ask, “What the fuck are they doing?”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Blythe: [Laughing].

Webber: [Laughing].

Blythe: Whether you like the answer or not, it paints another type of imagery onto an issue that makes people uncomfortable. It makes them, maybe, not see their righteous standpoint on something as pure as they think it is; the fetishization of babies, the idea behind them, Shiva could probably speak more eloquently about it.

The results of having that image, especially because there were counter-protests to the events, like at Planned Parenthood. You have these demonstrators who say, “Killing babies is wrong.” They are putting up these images of fetuses.

They are exalting them and fetishizing them. They are turning them into something that they are not. They are facing the reality of what they were doing not from their view or just our view. They were distraught and didn’t like it.

They saw what they were doing to people just trying to get access to reproductive care. Also, another thing of activism or asserting our rights with the exemption letters, our members asserting rights, and affirming their beliefs in the tenets, and having the ability to not be as subjected to State or federal mandated violation of our rights based on another person’s viewpoint.

That’s how we do it. It is the visual and the practical fields to it.

Jacobsen: You only hope you could save some costs by living near to a dairy farm or something.

Blythe: [Laughing] It’s very expensive.

Jacobsen: It’s not only a violation of women’s bodies. I think you’re right to correct me earlier. It’s not just an encroachment. It’s a violation.

Also, it is making the State a tool of a particular religion and only one interpretation of that particular religion in order to violate women’s rights.

Blythe: That’s part of Project Blitz. I don’t know if you’re familiar with it.

Jacobsen: What is Project Blitz?

Blythe: It is a group effort by people of the Evangelical persuasion to institute laws, bills, basically through the legal system, to advance their point of view. So, why are all these bills being passed?

States are taking each others’ bills, “This bill was able to get passed.” It is, basically, a playbook of benign measures of getting things passed and under the radar. So, people aren’t aware this is happening

All of a sudden. They try to do something like have access to certain medical care. Women need access to abortion or contraceptives. Then it becomes an “In God We Trust” thing. They add up. You Google “Project Blitz.” It is a real thing.

These are commonplace. They are religious people affecting everyday Americans, even people of a Christian or theistic viewpoint and aren’t even Evangelical. It is very smart, viciously smart, by making America theocratic bit-by-bit, piece-by-piece.

Jacobsen: That’s the theocratic impulse.

Blythe: Yes, so, they pass bills to gain foothold in states and then mis-use religious freedom to justify discrimination and use this to tear down separation of church and state. Then they establish America as a Christian nation. That’s the goal.

Jacobsen: It’s easy to tear down a wall when you’re playing Jenga and taking it down bit-by-bit. I’m not surprised. When you look at the Discovery Institute, they had the Wedge Strategy document.

It was to try to ram through a (battering) ram to skip all academic procedure by going from expert professorial research down to graduate and undergraduate students and down to high school level in order to develop robust educational programs, in this case biology.

They decided to go straight to the high schools with Intelligent Design or Intelligent Design Creationism. Some of the big names on that were Philip Johnson who died last September, William Dembski who formed the information theoretic form of it, and Michael Behe who formed the molecular biology form of it.

It seems as if the same form with the attempts to ram through and make a lot of these moves a lot easier. I think this is a very effective and insidious form of imposing theocracy. It can go down to the community level too with members of community googling your name and stuff like this.

Blythe: The reason this violation exists is because we have this saying; we’ve come to know of this Project Blitz, “It is a very subtle and very slow-moving, but effective, way to create supremacy where we live.”

You pass things. You use your religious freedom; you mis-use it. It is using it to justify discrimination, then you tear down the separation of church and state to establish the Christian nation. Part of the reason we do the things we do – and to some of the history, we are Satanists and are a religious group.

When we see these things and it affects us, our ability to be religious people and to practice our religion freely, and to be able to live our lives according to our tenets. We can’t do nothing. So, that’s what separates us from other satanic organizations.

We get compared to the Church of Satan all of the time. But we are more active; Project Blitz is a good reason why we fight things the way we do. If it is the law, then it doesn’t mean it is holy, right, or just.

It doesn’t mean that it isn’t a violation of our freedoms and our right to be religious people. So, when religious people are asserting their religious rights and the “right” religious people, then you come in to re-evaluate if you want to open those doors.

Because they will do anything to keep us out. In that, they also start to affirm the separation between church and state. That’s why they coined the term “Lucien’s Law.” It is the idea of when you see a certain group coming in and trying to break down the doors of church and state.

Then you bring in the Satanists. Then they will re-evaluate if they want that privilege under the guise of religious freedom because that means freedom for everyone. You talked about the Baphomet statue. That’s a good example.

Seeing the encroachment on the public square, Satanists say, “All or nothing. Either representation of all creeds, colours, religions, faiths, representing the people in their differences and nuances, or you don’t allow for that representation to be there at all. Then you do your thing, which is not the business of religion.”

So, we try to erect a Baphomet statue. All of the sudden, everyone is wondering, “Do we want religious symbols on state property?”

Jacobsen: How much did the Baphomet statue cost?

Blythe: Wow – it was a lot. It is a full bronze statue. I can give you a ballpark. I don’t have an exact figure. It was well over $100,000. It is beautiful. I don’t know if you have been able to see it. Once the headquarters in Salem open up, I would recommend seeing it.

It is a big beautiful bronze statue. It is a sight to see. That much bronze is expensive [Laughing]. You have to pay the artist too.

Jacobsen: For any millionaires wanting to donate money, there are many states needing more statues of Baphomet.

Blythe: Yes, I was going to say. We have the mold still, so we could probably create replicas a little bit cheaper than the original.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Blythe: So, if we want, we could make more.

Jacobsen: What was the reaction from Christians and fellow Satanists about the statue of Baphomet? I think it’s great.

Webber: I loved it. I remember when it was behind in the shed. You could go out back. They open the shed doors. There was Baphomet sitting behind a shiny door. The art is gorgeous. It is impressive. You can see it. You can sit on its lap!

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Blythe: You can do a lot of things on that lap.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Webber: [Laughing].

Blythe: I remember seeing the original drawings and the concept art that they were releasing prior to it being on the bill. I am really upset that I couldn’t make it to the unveiling, because being unable to see it in public for the first time and for what it represented.

It is one of the most unique pieces of art that exists, but it is a unique piece of art that has so much power behind it. It is not just appreciating the art itself. It is appreciating what it represents. The first time I got to see the Baphomet statue was in Salem.

Not to sound corny, it made me cry a bit. Not only was I seeing this beautiful piece of art by Satanists, I was also seeing the symbol of the struggle Satanists go through in society in the era of Evangelical violation.

To know, the reaction of the Baphomet statue since it was unveiled. In Detroit, there was death threats. There were people harassing people going to the unveiling. There were bomb threats. All these folks descending upon where the first checkpoint was; they were crying.

They were seeing this as some symbol of the End Times. They had to fight as if us versus them, Christians versus Satanists, because they built a statue. Still, people are absolutely horrified. They see Baphomet as this symbol of evil.

Not based on our actual beliefs, but based on their preconceived notion of what a Satanist is, if they are confronted by a goat figure; people have always associated goats with evil and it’s an icky animal.

They are so besides themselves that there are children. It justifies, in their mind, that there is some kind of overall conspiracy that we’re trying to come after their children and stuff like that. They put so much of their own viewpoints and their own biases, and their own views of the world onto this piece of art.

Whereas, from a Satanist point of view, it is just beautiful. It is a representation of seeing this and the craftsmanship going into it. It is these children seeing this and not being afraid. It is what we see in the world.

Just being different doesn’t mean it is bad, because I am a Satanist, it doesn’t mean that I am bad. Obviously, there were very stark differences to the reactions to it. But it’s a fucking amazing piece of art [Laughing], at the end of the day.

In Arkansas, there is a lawsuit going on right now. We’re part of that. We could always get you in contact with our legal people who could talk about the legal nuances of the lawsuits.

Jacobsen: Please do, that’s where the rubber hits the road.

Blythe: Same thing, they erected – Arkansas – a Ten Commandments statue. We applied to erect our own Baphomet. That’s been a headache. People see it. They don’t like the statue.

Jacobsen: I remember talking to Stu de Haan and Michelle Shortt [Ed. also, Sebastian Simpson of another chapter] a couple to a few years ago. One thing stands out from the interview, surely. It had to do with this notion that when Christian nationalists of various forms try to impose something on the rest of the population.

They get rejected or the proposal or policy is denied. They don’t get what they want or only get 99% of what they want: They play the victim. I believe I posed this as a question. Michelle and Stu responded, ‘100%, if they don’t get immediately what they want, they immediately play the victim.’

It is one of the ultimate ironies because it is coming out of a social and political persuasion that demonizes anyone taking a victim stance. It becomes a political and social platform, and theology, and projecting that victim status outward. Have you come across this as well?

Blythe: Yes, of course, we see it all the time. Other people asserting their rights see it as an attack against the majority. I don’t really know how much more I could add to that. So, they’ve had this position upholding this supremacy.

Then you have a minority utilizing this to uphold their own rights. But since the worldview is different, it is not right or wrong here. It’s about different. They see themselves as a victim. They want to see themselves as a victim and us affirming our rights as an attack, when we have been the ones attacked the entire time.

It is as though they are seeing how their own tactics are seen from the other viewpoint. Where, they have created this infrastructure where they benefit. But when someone else benefits from it, they say, “No, no, no, that wasn’t supposed to happen.”

So seeing what we’re doing as an attack, they’re not actual victims. Nothing is being taken away from them. By their own framework and by their own actions, because they want to inhibit us, whatever they want to put in place for us to be equals in whatever instance, they want to take that away.

They become victims. They do whatever they can to keep us from having our rights. Sometimes, this means taking away what they put in place to give them an advantage. It is this weird thing. They are not victims. They are not being attacked.

Whatever victimhood, whatever viewpoint that they have, it is not in reality. It is of their own choosing. They are choosing to be upset. It is not based on anything that we’re doing against them. We’re not doing anything against the Christians or those with a Christian viewpoint.

We are standing up for ourselves and things that would inhibit our ability to enact equality.

Jacobsen: The overall framework that I’m getting from that: If you have all the ordinary rights everyone should have set up while others do not have equal rights in every domain, then the attempts to get equal rights in those domains lacking, like the Satanists and others; that move towards equality can feel like an attack.

Blythe: We’re seeing that with the Black Lives Matter movement.

Jacobsen: Right, it is interpreted as only black lives matter. That’s where these phrases like All Lives Matter come out or these weird takes like Blue Lives Matter, as we all know it is a professional suit and not a skin or ethnic marker.

So, on that note, how are the Satanists part of some of the social movements we’ve been seeing active?

Blythe: So, TST came out with a statement on that. We’re not making this about us. We get asked, “What is TST doing about Black Lives Matter?” The answer is, “We’re not making this about us.” We’re not making this about religion.

As an organization, the things that we get involved with in any legal issues or matters has to do with the fact that it has to do with religious people. We keep it within that framework. But Black Lives Matter is not a religious issue, but a human rights issue.

It is something affecting black communities. We don’t want to be a distraction or to paint more targets on the backs of members of the black community, and other Satanists. It is not TST specific. Satanists as a whole are doing what they can to uplift voices in the black community, whether showing up at the protest or contributing funds to some of the legal aids or some of the victim funds to some who lost their lives.

They are doing it in a way that is not a distraction. That’s why you’re not seeing big banners of “TST!” at the protest because it is a distraction and makes it about our identity rather than what this is about, which is the black community and police brutality and their right to not be killed indiscriminately.

Jade and I can talk about what we have personally done. I don’t know if Jade wants to share.

Jacobsen: Please do.

Webber: Albany, there have been the protests happening nearby. We’re going to go out nearby and provide cleanup to any of the businesses needing cleanup after the fact. Because there has been some destruction.

Speaking on All Lives Matter, when we had the Boston Marathon bombing, they used to say, “Boston city strong.” They didn’t say, “Oh! All cities strong.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Webber: That’s my biggest argument back when it happens. It is just because it is black lives that it is offensive. In a sense, it is racist.

Blythe: Saying, “All Lives Matter,” is more silencing of their voices, it is more of an insult. It is one more thing, and it’s not the point [Laughing]. We have different members and different chapters. One of the reasons behind that, this comes to why we recruit and don’t proselytize to people.

You have this event, Black Lives Matter. What they are trying to accomplish and what they are trying to talk about is unique to them, this is their discussion. This is their crying out, “Stop killing us.” They already have targets on their backs.

This is part of the overall problem. They already have targets. What benefit would it be with Satanists that we’re trying to deal with on the side? We have our own issues. People believing in ritual Satanic abuse. That we do terrible things.

We’ve got our baggage. None of these things are true. But these are things we fight in our own territory, on our own time, in our own way. The last thing that this community, which is already dealing with discrimination and loss of life, needs is for us to bring our baggage into it.

Anyone who is trying to find an excuse with “All Lives Matter.” Or, they are trying to say, “You’re just a bunch of thugs, who want to destroy property.” Black Lives Matter is this event. They want something simple.

They want to let the world know something is affecting this community, how unjust it is, and want it to change. They don’t want the distracting conversation of “We saw Satanists over here. So, you guys must be this, and this, and this.”

We have asked the black community. What we have been told, “Don’t be a distraction. Do not point more targets on our backs. Be an effective ally. Do what you can to uphold our voices and be known.”

That’s why you see a lot of us sharing things on social media. We have individuals and chapters going out to help with cleanups and even showing up to protests. Putting themselves between them and the police, as body guards.

We are doing the same stuff, but not under the Satanist banner. Otherwise, it would be making it about us and our identity, not about them and the issue that they’re trying to talk about. I’ll send you the statement.

Jacobsen: What are other areas that we have not quite explored or that you have not had explored in an interview?

Blythe: [Laughing] It depends. I’ve done so many different types of interviews and covered so many different types of things. It is nice doing an interview with someone who is a self-identified Satanist [Ed. card-carrying]. I haven’t had to justify why we’re a religion during this conversation, which is nice.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Blythe: Jade was talking about Albany. Albany is doing a bunch of other cool things. Because they’re a great fucking chapter. My history with TST. I have been with TST since 2014. I founded the chapter in Utah.

Then I became a member of the International Council. Then I was doing that for four years. I have been a part of a lot of chapters. I have been the spoiled brat of International Council, as I have been over some of the most amazing chapters that TST has ever seen or will see.

Albany is one of them. They do a lot of good things. They’ve got leadership and Jade here, and Shannon who you’ve talked to. Some of the most brilliant leaders we have; you guys, they get shit done. I would like to give her the opportunity to talk about Albany and what they’re doing.

Webber: We run the Menstruatin’ With Satan, where we collect feminine hygiene products for those who menstruate and donate them to Equinox, which is a women’s shelter down our way. They distribute the products to those in need.

Also, we do a toys for children drive during the Christmas months. We did the Brimstone Initiative, which is distributing care packages to the homeless. So, they have the essentials that they would need living life without a home.

Those are part of the projects. We are trying to get a strip of highway. They don’t want to say The Satanic Temple is part of the highway.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Webber: We’re getting a little pushback from New York [Laughing].

Jacobsen: If one looks at the United States, it’s an outlier. Most every other advanced economy, industrial society, provides either healthcare or pharmacare, or these sorts of things.

The universal access is standard in most industrialized societies, wealthy ones. If the United State provided to such universal access, would these kinds of drives be needed?

Blythe: That’s an excellent question. Maybe, you can tell us about living in Canada.

Jacobsen: Ah, yes!

Blythe: [Laughing]

Jacobsen: I forgot about that.

Blythe: I think the problems we face in America are uniquely American. It doesn’t mean it is necessarily a good thing. We have our struggles. I think that there are other societies as well. We have chapters all over the world now. Different chapters, we have one in Ottawa.

Jacobsen: That’s right! I did read about that.

Blythe: One of the things that we learned being international and crossing American borders. The Satanic Temple is a uniquely American organization because our founders are American. A lot of things that we do are based on the struggles in our American setup.

Our struggles are not only our identities as Satanists, but also asserting our rights in everyday life. It depends on where you’re at. I think that would be a really good question for people who run chapters outside of the US.

Because they can give an example of things outside of the US, “Those are their struggles. Here are our struggles.” Being a religious minority as a religious Satanist is a struggle no matter where you are, no matter how secular or religious the country is.

Even in Ottawa, there is pushback. When the Ottawa chapter did an event, they got so much pushback. They had a really strong reaction, strong negative reaction, by the people in Ottawa.

Jacobsen: You have to bear in mind. In Canada, so, it is somewhere between the United Kingdom and America, even on particularized beliefs dependent on larger structures, e.g., thinking human beings and all things in the world were created less than 10,000 years ago.

~¼ of Canadians believe this. There is a hunk, probably smaller than Americans, who believe in UFOs, ghosts, a literal Devil. Some of my favourite, they find one number believes in heaven, which is significant.

Yet, a smaller percent believe in hell. So, it is a very selective, positive theology. It reflects the demographics of the country. Some 2/3rds of the country [Ed. number statistically found has less now.], even in Indigenous (Inuit, First Nations, Metis) communities, identify as Christian of some form.

That’s the legacy of colonization. It is infused in the culture here as well. I do not see as virulent a form of it as in the United States. Part of it is probably the corporate backing. We have places like Rebel Media and Ezra Levant who pose themselves as journalists, but amount to propagandists for various rightwing arms of things.

It is the same for Fox News, Breitbart, Stormfront, and others. They tie themselves to religious ideologies. I know in the United States. A guy who was connected with Jim Jones, actually. I have done some interviews with people who have left.

It is about the tragedy and triumph through healing of some of their lives. It was around the WWII Healing Revival Movement. The Western world collapsed, people were looking for answers. White dudes came in to give them answers proposing themselves as prophets of God.

His name was William Branham [Ed. See Triumph Through Tribulation: William Branham’s Theology In and Out (2020) with former member and author John Collins].

So, he had deep ties to the KKK. He was a main influence on Jim Jones, therefore the People’s Temple. We know how that turned out. Similarly, we see those ideologies turning out. But they have been exported.

I think, in Canada, we have some of that around white supremacist, neo-Nazi groups. They are particularly virulent in the United States because of the political power a lot of the times. They have a history of making their ideology policy.

You can have semi-/demi-/hemi-black supremacists like Louis Farrakhan, but he talks big. He doesn’t really have the power to make policy or have a history of lynching. So, it’s a lot more virulent of an ideology tied to religious faith.

It is a big stew that a lot of this is in, but, at the end of the day, I think the major marker or divide is a battle over women’s bodies or women’s bodily autonomy. Because that’s how they pass on all of their values.

Women are to have lots of kids and only be in the home raising the kids by religious force or coercion, or fear of hell. In Canada, it is less like that, but it’s still a problem. I’m not surprised about the Ottawa chapter of TST.

It is a big porous, huge border. It is the orange line, at this point.

Blythe: Yes, we’re unique. That’s for sure. Given everything, I can say, “We’re unique.”

Jacobsen: So, the obvious question, “How can people get involved?”

Blythe: They can go to our website, which is www.thesatanictemple.com. They can find all sorts of information about how to locate chapters, can find out what we’re doing in the big national campaigns such as Grey Faction, Religious Reproductive Rights, After School Satan.

They can go to www.shopsatan.com. They can get some cool swag and support our legal efforts because lawyers are not cheap. There are also places there where they can help donate as well. If they like our cause, if they like what we’re about, even if they are not a Satanist, Jade, how do they get ahold of the Albany chapter?

Webber: So, we’re right at the top of the list.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Webber: We get a lot of interesting emails. We are right at the top of the list. On www.thesatanictemple.com, we have a list of the chapters. You can find the different ones posted there. We have all our contact information there. We can’t pay the Illuminati, sorry! [Laughing]

Blythe: Yes, sorry, we can’t even pay ourselves.

Jacobsen: Any books, authors, speakers, to recommend?

Webber: A book came out on how TST is changing religion and how we look at it. I just got it. It is pretty interesting.

Blythe: There’s also the Hail Satan? documentary that came out. It is accessible via Hulu or Netflix depending on where you’re at. But if people are more interested in where The Satanic Temple gets its framework of not only the religious identity, the tenets, and the background, if you go to Albany’s website, they have a book list.

It is probably one of the most comprehensive book lists I’ve seen compiled for TST. It covers TST and Satanism in general. It has videos or books relating to certain campaigns. There’s stuff in there about what Grey Faction does, or After School Satan.

You can get yourself acquainted with that. There’s a great book by Katherine Stewart called The Good News Club: The Christian Right’s Stealth Assault on America’s Children. You can find out everything about Good News Clubs and why After School Satan exists.

Albany would be the most comprehensive book list for things that we generally recommend for people.

Jacobsen: Thank you, it was lovely.

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2022-05-15

Interview with Anya Overmann – President, Young Humanists International

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/10/14

Anya Overmann is the President of Young Humanists International and has held multiple roles in the American Ethical Union. Her roles have mainly been in the youth sections of these organizations. She was raised in the Ethical Culture movement and attended the Ethical Society of St. Louis as a child to the present. She received her Bachelor’s degree in Communication from Truman State University. Overmann is a freelancing writer currently living as a digital nomad. Her passion lies in advocating vigorously for humanist and progressive values both within and beyond the United States.

Here we discuss the former role as the Communications Officer of Young Humanists International, expectations at the start, rebranding in tenure, Marieke Prien, time since Oslo general assembly, Humanist Voices, African Humanism, and science.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: To start off, how long have you been Communications Officer for Young Humanists International?

Anya Overmann: I started in 2015. That will make it about 5 years.

Jacobsen: Now, when you started, what were you expecting?

Overmann: Because the Americas had such a lacking presence, the US had little to no presence in the youth section. I didn’t know what to expect at all. That was the first engagement that any youth US organization had with IHEYO, at the time, and, now, Young Humanists International.

It is the first time that we had in-person interaction with the organization ever. It was back in 2015 back when I attended the general assembly in Oslo (Norway). I did not know what to expect. I ran for that position to get more involved.

Because it more aligned with my passions and where I wanted to go. I did not know what to expect because from the US perspective. We were not involved at all. I really glad to lead that charge to get us more involved, particularly because I believe that – like many American things – the humanist organizations tend to be American-centric.

I was glad to lead the charge in breaking away from that mentality.

Jacobsen: Now, what have been some of the outcomes of the outreach of the communication officer efforts from IHEYO to YHI?

Overmann: Obviously, we went through a massive rebranding over the last couple of years. A lot of that was based on simplifying things and making it appear more open and progressive as an organization.

Because, as you know, secular and non-religious communities are, often, majority white men, Western white men. So, the effort was not only considered simplifying the very complicated acronyms we have in place [Laughing]…

Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…

Overmann: …but also opening it up to being more feminist, more inclusive, less Western-centric – generally more inclusive and moving in that direction of not being so Western white male focused.

That was really the direction I saw it going. I was glad to be part of the effort of this playing out. This was the major transition aside from the visual changes to the logo, the branding. A change from a dark red to humanist raspberry [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I remember something like that. Yes.

Overmann: It is a softer colour. I don’t want to say, “It is more feminine.” But it does have an impact, visually. Aside from all that, I think the symbolism behind the rebrand was key. I am hoping the policies and the movements that we make as an organization reflect the branding.

Jacobsen: What do you think was the importance of the work that Marieke Prien did as the president in terms of service, in terms of leadership, and in terms of setting a tone for the leadership of the organization?

Overmann: Where do I begin? Marieke, she has done so much over the past several years. First of all, bridging the gap between the youth section and the parent organization, I think this has been really challenging.

There is this autonomy that we want to maintain as young people. But, at the same time, we don’t want to get too far away from the parent organization, who we are, and, frankly, the resources that they have.

I think she did a fantastic job in building the relationships with Humanists International and setting the stage for where we are headed next, which is to be a more integrated organization and removing some of the bureaucratic hurdles, which have been established.

I would say, “It was unintentional how those hurdles were erected.” When you are an organization establishing your own bylaws, she was key in seeing these hurdles for what they were and making moves in the direction of taking those down, so we as a youth section can do the work that we want to do.

It is in the respective communities having humanist perspective, having youth, and bringing youth in, without all the paperwork and hoops to jump through to get it done. She worked really to do that.

I think one of the most admirable things that she has done over the last few years is being a representative for young humanists at the Humanists International board level without having a vote.

She has attended these board meetings for a number of years now without, technically, having a vote. But because of the relationships built, and the advocacy done by her; she was really able to get – metaphorically – our foot in the door: to be heard, to be more considered.

She set us up for where we are headed next. I am so grateful for the work that she has done. She has done so much.

Jacobsen: When it comes to the parent organization and the youth section of the parent organization, what have been some of the more poignant parts of collaboration of a unified interest? The general organization will have some overlap with the youth organization interests.

It isn’t always the case. It may not have to be the case. Because a general demographic has some different concerns than youth. What has stood out in terms of the collaborative efforts to you, outside of individual admirable work of, for instance, the former president – since Oslo?

Overmann: I think the funding that has been put into the humanist grants, for example. That’s, maybe, the most substantial thing that we can point to – the overlapping interests. Those grants have been issued. People have used them to create events and workshops in communities that do not have a strong humanist presence or community presence.

So, particularly in Latin America and in Asia, and in Africa too, those grants have been put to use. I think that’s super important because building the youth community is an invaluable investment, especially right now.

Because if we want to build a stronger parent organization, we have to invest in youth now. That’s how you ensure a movement of humanists who will push the movement forward. I think the grants are probably the most powerful example of the parent organization really supporting the youth section.

Jacobsen: Humanist Voices, what are some highlights for you?

Overmann: We started that 2016/17. It was such a cool effort because it was such an unofficial thing. It came together as a sort of rough – let’s get some perspective out there, which isn’t officially attached to our name., but we support it.

I think that that was a really cool effort that we made. The content that we can put out has so much more potential there. We have put out – I mean, thanks to you. You have put out the majority [Laughing] of content with your interviews and the work that you have done.

We have been able to get a lot of different perspective just from the project, which has been entirely youth led. There’s been no funding put into that whatsoever. I think that’s the most impressive aspect of that entire project. It was youth-led and completely unfunded.

Humanist Voices is a really cool effort on its own. I will say this on the record. I do think that developing it into a podcast format or, at least, developing something similar that has an audiovisual component is going to really step up the exposure that we have and has the potential to bring in a lot more interest from both youth and older people interested too.

I think there is a lot of potential there.

Jacobsen: In terms of the diversification of the community base for young humanists, I think you’re right. I don’t think there has been a lot of emphasis, especially African Humanism or Eastern European Humanism. They’re there.

They have fewer resources, so they may not be as developed in having those fundamental aspects of infrastructure. But they have grounded ideas in the long-term traditions that they come from, the cultures. I think they have valuable contributions to the overarching humanist ideals.

Two examples come to mind, or one with two different titles is Ubuntu and Unhu, which is ‘I exist because you exist.’ In other words, it is an interpersonal sense of things. It is more communal while still saying there are individual people within the society who have their own rights.

That social responsibility and communalism is fundamental to Humanism. A lot of African humanists will talk about Ubuntu or Unhu prior to Arab-Muslim colonialism or European-Christian colonialism as really the core of a lot of African values.

Some termed it “African Humanism.” It’s there. That’s only one example. What are thoughts on some of these different areas of the world with young humanists coming up?

Overmann: I think it is very important and vital that those are highlighted, featured, and given exposure. Because, again, we are moving towards this global humanist organization. It means moving away from this exclusively Western focus with an emphasis on the individual more than the communal aspects of Humanism.

I think a unique perspective that I, specifically, can provide coming from an ethical humanist group is that there can be a lot of really important cultural aspects. These aspects are in religion too, which focus on community. There are pages out of the book of religion. Which we can take and apply in a humanistic way, I think Western humanists tend to shy away from that.

In that, they are entrenched in this Western mindset and believing so many aspects of religion are bad. They tend to miss out on the aspects that can really help us move forward. I think bringing in these different takes on Humanism, especially the African one.

Like you hit the nail on the head with that one, it is a really strong case for looking at Humanism differently and seeing how we can be more inclusive and communal. I think that’s super vital. Ethical culture does the same thing back in the States.

It is a different approach to Humanism. It doesn’t necessarily sit well with secular humanists because it is so inclusive. But at the end of the day, the motto is “deed before creed.” So, what it is saying, ‘We don’t care what your beliefs are. If you believe in a God, it’s not a big deal. You values and execution of the values are what matters.’

It is still so humanistic. I know secularists don’t necessarily like that. Because it looks like it includes religious people, but it does. But I think that opening ourselves up to those types of thinking help us excel, especially when we are trying to get away from the classic Western, secular humanist view of Humanism.

Jacobsen: Do you think the fact that Humanism is more empirical permits it to more consistently refine itself?

Overmann: Yes! [Laughing] I think it might be easier with my background and being a young person to be able to incorporate that into my view of Humanism. But I can see how someone who has been a humanist for a number of decades and is used to what you described as this empirical approach.

I can see how it might be challenging for them. It is really interesting because it is really reflective of these very white, male driven societies. We become entrenched in “this is how we will do it, and this is how it is” [Laughing].

I think humanists don’t want to believe that we fall into that mindset, but we do. I think that it just reinforces why it is so important to have these other approaches to Humanism, which are steadily gaining more of a voice and as a reminder: Our worldview should be more malleable, especially if we are seeking to be more inclusive every day.

As a movement, we are going to have to incorporate more views. I think that that’s totally part of it. I think science doesn’t necessarily go agaist that because science is learning new information, take that into account, and then you move forward.

So, it is not too far away from the scientific approach either. We don’t have to take spirituality and make it a part of Humanism because that is the way forward. I think there is a way to do that in a thoughtful and calculated way, which is both inclusive and considerate of where we are coming from.

Jacobsen: Science studies one unified reality. So, if anything is studying a human being, then it is studying human nature. So, to any anthropological study into any other way of looking at the world that we would fit into a humanist framework, it would be more revealing of what Humanism is truly about, because it is incorporating more and more aspects of what is possible for a human being to flourish, what is possible in human nature.

Overmann: Absolutely, I totally agree.

Jacobsen: What humanist value is the most important, stands out the most, of the declarations or manifestos formalized?

Overmann: That’s a good question. I think the one on climate change is really important. Right now, I think the Auckland Declaration is important denouncing the politics of division. I think that is so critical right now with the US in this really critical time of teetering on the edge of a fascist regime. I think having denounced that back in 2018; I don’t want to say, “We were ahead of the curve.”

But we were on top of it. The U.S. isn’t the only place in this circumstance. The UK is too. They are separating from Europe. The Philippines have been in that position for a while. Brazil is another example of that. I think that declaration was really important.

That one sticks out for me as being one of the most important values that we as an organization have publicly announced.

Jacobsen: Anya, thanks so much for your time.

Overmann: You’re welcome.

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2022-05-15

Ask Professor Burge 6 – Income and Religious Disaffiliation, and Modern Republican Party

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/10/19

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about modern political party religious affiliation and income.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, here we are again with Professor Ryan Burge, we’ve had the Democratic National Convention. We’ve had the Republican National Convention. So, something new has to do with income in the research for you. How do the religious versus the Nones [Ed. Sorry, Indi] compare in incomes?

Professor Ryan Burge: The perception people have is individuals who have more incomes are religiously unaffiliated or those who have no religion are less likely to be poor. The image of poor hillbillies. In fact, the reality is there is no real relationship between income and disaffiliation. There is some evidence that more higher income people are more likely to be religious. You have to think about it in terms of the vertical versus the horizontal.

When people think about religion, a lot think about the vertical, which is the relationship between a higher power and you. But religion has a strong social relationship too. It’s you and other people. People who get farther in life, economically, in terms of careers and things. They tend to have large social networks. Where is the place to have the social network? It is in the church. That’s where people make connections and move things forward. People are religious tend to be plugged in.

They aren’t necessarily funding anti-abortion clinics or things like that. They put a few hundred dollars in the offering plate, and want to see and be seen, and be part of the social scene. If you own a car lot, people are more likely to buy a car from you because they think you’re reputable and know you. It is practical and want to have a good business. It’s one way to have a good business. So, yes, there’s no real association become income and disassociation.

Jacobsen: The Greatest Generation had about 75% believing in God absolutely. 35% in Generation Z, why the 40% drop, approximately?

Burge: Yes, it is generation replacement – a lot of it. I don’t want to lay things at the altar of the internet too much. The internet did have a big impact on beliefs. Because if you were a kid growing up in rural Alabama in 1950, your only opportunity to hear about Judaism, Buddhism, or Hinduism was to go to the local library and find one or two books there talking about these things. Now, a 12-year-old can go on the internet and learn about the Five Pillars of Islam in 5 minutes, or Mormonism, or Hinduism, or learn about being an atheist or a humanist.

I think access to more and more information makes people more doubtful of the things that they currently because they see the buffet of beliefs in the world, “Maybe, I was not as right as I thought I was.” I think the internet has a lot to do with it, and secularization. We know America has become a much more secular country. Here’s what interesting: 40% of Gen Z claim themselves as religiously unaffiliated – agnostic, atheist, and nothing in particular, but only 18% hold an agnostic or atheist belief system. So, half of the people who identify from a belonging perspective as Nones do not from a believing perspective. Belief is the last thing to go. Attendance is the first thing. Belonging is the second thing. Belief is the third thing to go for most people.

Jacobsen: Why are retired atheists so prominent on social media, as in posting a lot?

Burge: This is conjecture from me. I think it’s an interesting question. I think a lot of retired atheists are retired, and bored.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Burge: If you were an atheist, you grew up when 85-90% of America was Christian in the 1960s and 70s. A lot of atheists grew up in culturally conservative households and communities. They really had to navigate a difficult space, where they couldn’t say what they really were politically or religiously. Once you get to retirement age, you don’t care what people think. I think you become more passionate. You don’t worry about getting your boss mad and getting ahead.

Atheists tend to have high levels of education – more than half of them have a bachelor’s degree. A lot of them have idle time, education, and make politics their hobby. Boom! Here it goes, they have nothing to lose. They want to post about politics a lot. It is overcorrection for their upbringing, “Look how liberal I am now compared to the religious town I grew up in.”

Jacobsen: Why were so Americans before saying that American atheists were a drain on the economy?

Burge: I have a theory. I don’t have strong data to back this up, yet. The arguments people make in public are the most socially respectable version of the argument that they really want to make. So, when it comes to immigration, it is a lot better socially to say, “I am opposed to immigration because I think they take good jobs from good, hardworking Americans and drive down wages.” It sounds palatable in a lot of ways. It is not about skin color, religion, or xenophobia. It is about cold, hard economics.

If you see the data, the age group most worried about immigration are people over the age of 65, which tells you pretty clearly. It is not about economics, “They are going to take our jobs.” It is about xenophobia and fear of the other. Once you look at the data, it lays bare this reality. It is not about “taking our jobs”; it is about “we don’t like brown and black people coming to our country. People coming here should be white and Christian. We just don’t like that.” Of course, nobody is going to say that at the dinner party because people will respond, “You’re racist.”

They couch this in economic terms. But it doesn’t pan out. Evidence is clear. Immigrants don’t make the economy worse. They make it better in a lot of ways.

Jacobsen: In August, 2019, you “scraped” 58,000 tweets from all democratic primary candidates. 0.2% – 2 in 1,000 – of them contained the word “God.” It doesn’t have to do with sentences, but with a word. Why that? Why more references to Islam than to Christianity?

Burge: Because the Democratic Party has become the party of non-white Christians. 38% of the Democratic Party is white and Christian. 75% of the modern Republican Party. The modern Republican Party is one that styles itself as a party that caters to white Christian people and white Christian values. The Democratic Party has to cater to everyone else, including the Nones, and religious pluralism. “America is not a Christian country, but a country that has a lot of Christian people.” It is a lot of virtue signalling.

“Listen, we’re open to every religion. If we talk about Islam, then it looks like we’re open to all religion.” It becomes a key to speaking about all religions. You’ve got to appeal to one group while not making the other group mad. Democrats tend to not speak about God too much, except in vague terms. Republicans are more open about it because it’s their base.

Jacobsen: Why does knowing someone with COVID-19 decrease support for Trump among white Evangelicals?

Burge: It makes it real. This happened in America, especially where I live in the rural southern part of the state of Illinois. When COVID-19 broke out in March and April, it was primarily a Chicago thing. Almost all the cases in the state were in Chicago. We might have 5 cases a week, which is almost none. The resurgence of COVID-19 now happens in rural counties. More people in Illinois got COVID-19 outside of Chicago than outside of Chicago. It has become more and more real.

For a long time, a lot of people in rural America were convinced this was a hoax. A lot are still convinced by the way. When you see someone die, you realize: This isn’t a messaging campaign by Democrats, or a hoax, or a conspiracy. People are sick and dying because the Trump Administration has done a terrible job handling the pandemic in every way. The risks are high. It is not politics. It is people’s lives on the line.

Jacobsen: How has the Republican Party changed in demographics from mainline Protestants, Evangelicals, and Catholics?

Burge: Yes! This is a big shift, not a lot of Americans understand. Mainline Protestants used to be 40% of all Republicans in 1978. 4 in 10 were Mainline Protestants, e.g., United Methodists, Episcopalians, non-Evangelical Protestants or moderate Protestants who do not want higher taxes, who have higher incomes and higher levels of education. Today, they went from 41% of the Republican Party to 14% of the Republican Party. Evangelicals went from 25% to 32%. So, they’re growing, but Catholics have grown as a share of the Republican Party too.

The Catholic vote used to be a solid blue vote, especially at the national level. You can think of Kennedy, New England Catholics. Over time, they have moved towards the Republican Party, especially among white Catholics. No religion, the Nones, used to be less than 5% of Republicans. Now, 13.6% are Republican. They are a small group and growing in size. As the Nones grow in size, you will get more. You would not get all Catholics.

The modern Republican Party is 1/3^rd Evangelical, ¼ Catholic, and 13-15% Mainline Protestants, then those of other faith groups, and then No Religion. That’s what the modern Republican Party looks like.

Jacobsen: Thank you so much for your time, today.

Burge: Always a pleasure, Scott.

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2022-05-15

Ask Jon 19 – Quelle Surprise

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/10/17

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about the case of Elizabeth Newman.

*Interview conducted on September 14, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, what is going on with this Newman case?

Jonathan Engel: It is very interesting. There is this woman named Elizabeth Newman. She worked for many years in government. She is a pretty high-up individual in the Department of Homeland Security. In April, she quit. She cited a reason as the Trump Administration not taking the most serious internal terrorist threat as a threat, which is white supremacist terrorist violence. She said, ‘I couldn’t get anyone to take it seriously. So, I quit.’ She has been vocal about it. I don’t know if she is writing a book.

I have see her on T.V. She spoke eloquently, ‘After a while, I had a to leave. Right now, I feel as if I have to sound the alarm. This government, as I know from being inside of it, doesn’t take it seriously.’ Then she was asked about Trump. They asked, ‘Did you vote for Trump?’ She said, ‘Yes.’ I am shocked about this. I am curious as to how many people support this guy. She didn’t fit the profile of a Trump supporter. She seemed generally reasonable, concerned about the public, intelligent, educated.

I was wondering what about the next question. They asked, ‘Why did you vote for Trump in 2016?’ Because there were so many things known about Trump in 2016. The settlement of Trump University for fraud to settle civil suits. It was known about the Central Park five young men who were accused of a heinous crime and then were exonerated with DNA evidence. Trump still wants them executed. We knew about that. We knew about the pussy-grabber-in-chief. We knew about all this.

How did somebody like Elizabeth Newman, a seemingly intelligent and decent person, vote for Trump? By the way, she says that she will vote for Biden in 2020. When asked, ‘Why did you vote for Trump in 2016?’ The first words out of her mouth and afterwards, ‘I was raised in a Christian household.’ She went on to talk about how he was supported by all the Evangelicals, ‘I don’t believe in abortion. I’m pro-life.’ The fact that the abortion rate has been going down steadily under democratic presidents didn’t influence that much.

It was almost as if this intelligent woman had a switch in her head called “Religion.” When the switch went on, critical thinking went out of the window. Trump supporters have this hate, ignorance, and xenophobia. I don’t like it. I see what it is, though. But it is the people who say, “I voted for Trump in 2016, but, now, I see it.” It is interesting to see. I am glad Elizabeth Newman is saying she is going to vote for Biden.

But again, I see her voting for Trump. It is as if the religion switch was turned on and the critical reasoning switch went off in her head. I don’t think that we look carefully enough at how religion turns off people’s critical thinking. If you believe in miracles, and if you believe in that kind of stuff generally, then it can hinder your ability to believe in science and the evidence of what you see.

I hope there are lot more people like her around who have seen the debacle Trump has been and will change their votes, but there are still a lot of people who for religious reasons will continue to support him. I think it is an existential struggle for the world, which is the ability to rely on science and reasoning being inhibited by people’s taught religious beliefs. They get these from the time they are little children. It is hard for them to give this up.

Jacobsen: John, thank you.

Engel: Thanks, Scott, see you next week. Take care.

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2022-05-14

Ask Jon 18 – The Times They Are a-Changin’

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/10/02

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about the demographic projections influencing current political reactionary moves.

*Interview conducted on September 21, 2020.*

—

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, you’ve been reading your hometown newspaper, which is regular for those who have been reading this series on the regular. Let’s talk about the political divides happening now, at a particularly acute clip, what comes to mind? What articles are standing out from the New York Times as of our last discussion?

Jonathan Engel: The issue of the day, these things go with such speed in the modern culture. The biggest item of the today is the United States Supreme Court. Ruth Bader Ginsburg passed away this week. There are four conservatives, four liberals. It may be five because Chief Justice Roberts is conservative by nature, but has shown some liberal ideas in recent decisions.

So, this all goes back to 2016 when Antonin Scalia, a conservative justice, died in February of 2016. Many liberals like me thought, “Oh boy, we can get somebody picked by Obama.” Obama being Obama picked someone acceptable to Republican senators who were a majority. He wanted to get this picked through. So, he picked Merrick Garland. He is not liberal, but more center left and is an older person because these are lifetime appointments. All appointments to the federal Supreme Court are lifetime appointments.

So, someone not that young and not that liberal. As we all know, as what happens, Mitch McConnell, the leader of the Republicans in the Senate, said, ‘We don’t even find him acceptable. We are not going to give him a hearing. It is only 9 months to the election. Let Americans decide in the election, who the next president will be, then we will let that person pick the next justice.” Now, we are only 6 weeks from the election.

What do you know? What a shocker, McConnell has changed his tune and said, ‘No, no, no, we will have somebody elected by Trump before the election and too bad. Are we hypocrites? I don’t know. And who cares?” What can Democrats do anything about it? One of the big political issues ongoing here right now. Probably the single biggest now, Democrats have certain things that they can do. Will they or won’t they? It is an interesting question. Again, they could impeach Trump again because impeachment hearings take precedence over everything else, including Supreme Court justice selection.

Charles Blow in the New York Times wrote about this, in an article called “Conservatives Try To Lock in Power.” He talks largely about the things that are obvious and a lot of people are talking about; you have demographic shifts in the country that make it unlikely Republicans will win in terms of actual number of votes. Young people tend to be more liberal, especially about social issues like homosexuality and abortion.

Also, you have the country becoming less homogeneous. There is a rising Latinx population in this country. There is a rising Asian-American population in this country. So, it looks like demographically Republicans are in trouble. Therefore, they are trying to lock in power in the courts in order to preserve their power in a non-democratic way because they are not going to be able to win elections.

Here’s what is interesting to me, that is pretty standard stuff. Blow also talks about, not just that the country is becoming less white and younger people are somewhat more liberal with the primary concern being climate change, how the country is becoming less religious and, specifically, less Christian.

I thought that was worth noting because that is something many liberals and democrats are very hesitant to talk about. They are, at times, very defensive about religion, ‘No, no, no, we’re religious too. We’re religious too!’ They are very defensive about religion and fail to acknowledge the country is becoming more secular. Charles Blow, in his column, talks about this. A little quote from it, “As America becomes less religious and less white, more galvanized to find climate change, more open to legalizing marijuana, and more aware of systemic racism, the religious conservative spine of the Republican Party is desperate for a way to save a way of life that may soon be rendered a relic.” Then he goes on to talk about how the country is becoming less Christian according to surveys, less religious in general.

Just that fact that he points that out in terms of the demographic change in the country, it was a tremendous breath of fresh air. So many liberals are afraid of even just pointing out that we are becoming a less religious country, somehow, scares them. Somehow, it makes them feel like it is something that we just can’t say.

I was happy to see Charles Blow talking about the demographic changes in the country. That’s one of those changes.

Jacobsen: Jon! Thank you so much for your time and the commentary today.

Engel: It’s my pleasure as always. Take care of yourself.

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2022-05-14

Ask Gary 2 – “Humanism supports democracy and human rights.”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/09/27

Gary McLelland is the Chief Executive of Humanists International: “Gary joined Humanists International in February 2017. Before this he worked for the Humanist Society Scotland since 2013 as Head of Communications and Public Affairs. He has also previously served as a Board member of the European Humanist Federation based in Brussels, as well as a board member of the Scottish Joint Committee on Religious and Moral Education. Before working in Humanist campaigning, Gary worked for a global citizenship project at the Mercy Corps European headquarters in Edinburgh, and also in policy and service delivery in education and social work. He has a BSc (hons) in psychology, a diploma in childhood and youth studies and master’s in human rights law, in which he researched the approach of the European Court of Human Rights and the United Nations’ approach to so-called ‘blasphemy laws’.”

Here we talk about vetting those in need, and international diplomacy.

*Interview conducted on September 4, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s talk about some filtering secular organizations, international and national, can do to vet asylum claims based on some form of fear of anti-secular reprisal, or religious fundamentalist violence against them, or legal actions against them. What are preliminary things to look for when vetting some of these cases?

Gary McLelland: Yes, one of the best ways to verify a case if it is possible is by referral. So, we have a matrix system, where we assign people scores based on different criteria. One of the criteria that we ranked very heavily is whether they are referred by another organization. Let’s take a hypothetical case of a humanist in India facing persecution because of some local incident, if that person can be referred to us by a member in India who knows them, has met them, can understand the context, can verify the level of threat that this person is facing, or, indeed, intervene and help them in some way. That goes a long way to establishing the credibility of the person.

Often, we don’t have that. We have people referred to us by a non-member. A lot of organizations will face this issue. As the public awareness of them providing support grows, because of news articles or more successful cases, the number of cases that get referred to it grows as well. It is happening to us as well. We have seen a massive growth in the number of referrals. One way is by the referral link. We can use the local members to help in another way. Sometimes, when we go through the verification process, we have said approximately 40% of the people who request help do not pass the verification stage. Often, this is because we can’t verify who they are or the risks that they are facing.

Sometimes, if they contact us, we will redirect them back to a local member, or another local contact in the region, to see what is the context, and if the story makes sense – a sense test. Another factor is the urgency of the case. Sometimes, it may be the case that someone may be seeking relocation because of some long and chronic issue. There are cases as in Mubarak’s because we had to jump on this immediately because we only knew that he had been apprehended. We didn’t know where to or why. The next thing is to get some level of verification from another form of contact in the region, which makes a lot of sense. Today, we were lucky to confirm another consultant on our staff, Kacem El Ghazzali. He is a Moroccan guy who has been working with us since 2013 t the United Nations. He came on board as a consultant for case work, specifically, for the MENA region. Kacem speaks Arabic and French.

So, also, he has a knowledge of the issues humanists face in the region. So, he is able to get in touch with people in different languages with some cultural sensitivity and awareness as to what is going on. These things can help having a conversation in their native language for 10 minutes versus an email exchange to understand the depth and the contexts for somebody who is genuinely in need. There is no one size fits all approach. The different requests that we get are very, very different. In many cases, it does require a lot of backwards and forwards. As I said in the article in The Friendly Atheist¸ the contact tends to move to an encrypted source, e.g., Signal, WhatsApp. That allows us to have a more in-depth conversation with a bit more understanding as to what is going on. The short answer is that it takes a lot of time. There is a lot of pressure when we get these referrals . They may often be in a heightened state of stress. The emotional reaction is to act as quickly as possible. However, the systems that we have in place and the policies that we have in place protect everybody. In that, we only protect people we can verify.

That process takes a lot of time. We ask for two. One is identification of the individual, identification documents. Another is verifying claim of being at risk, whether threats or harassment. So, we will request screenshots of credible threats, testimony of other people, so on and so forth. It can take a long time. Of course, a very, very stressful thing or the staff to review this stuff. We work as a team. We have a coordinator, Emma (who you should speak to at some point, actually), who has been doing this work for over 7 years. She worked on the writers at risk program at PEN International with some of the Bangladeshi bloggers. She has a real depth of knowledge about these issues. She coordinates not only our staff team, but our members, to respond to these cases and requests.

Basically, she will do this on an ongoing basis with my support. Every two weeks, we convene a case conference where the staff and I will discuss or go through the caseload to check what is happening with each case. Do we need to close a case or re-prioritize it, e.g., approve different levels of funding?

Jacobsen: As we should note, as a side point, Emma started the position on the Bala case.

McLelland: [Laughing] That’s true.

Jacobsen: Which is extraordinary [Laughing].

McLelland: She started the day before the Bala case started. I said this to Emma, “I know this is one of the most stressful jobs that you can do, which is to be in contact with people in a life or death situation. It is incredibly stressful. Inevitably, some things will not go the way you them to.” I wanted to have as long and as slow an introduction as possible to know the organization, the people, the history of the organization. Within 24 hours, Mubarak’s case began. She acted as professionally and diligently as anyone could have expected. She continues to be in daily contact with the lawyers and Leo. It was an incredible baptism of fire, you could say.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] We should take an educational point, as well, from extraordinary cases coming out of exceptional people like Gulalai Ismail. Those cases take years and extensive networks. We can’t go into depth there on some things. However, in general, what do organizations need when tracking, covering, and helping/assisting these extraordinary cases, singular?

McLelland: Like you said in the question, one is having a mind on the long game. I said this to some people when Mubarak was kidnapped in April, “Look, I know the urgency people feel about this. I feel it as well. If you allow yourself a few moments to reflect on Mubarak’s case now, where he is creamed in some prison in Nigeria worried about COVID-19, crammed with mosquitoes, wondering if people know where he is, not know what condition he is in (e.g., beaten up) without access to his lawyer. If you reflect on it, then you can understand why people feel a strong sense of urgency, why they want things to happen now, why they want people to get involved, why they tweet. It is important to channel the energy somewhere positive. However, what I think our experience, training, and policies also kick in, which is, perhaps, not a very natural response; a sense of calm, a sense of the long game, based on the experience with Gulalai. We know these cases take months, years. We know there will be back channel communications, negotiations, diplomacy, and a whole different set of layers of campaigning, not just the surface level that the public will see. There are a whole lot of challenges about that.

Not just from the management point of view, another case, Mohamed Cheikh Ould Mkhaitir, we did campaigning. We got support from Amnesty International on this case of a humanist anti-slavery campaigner from Mauritania. It was a win for us, in a sense. Amnesty can muster far more resources and change than us with our smaller size. From a management point of view, it is a tricky thing. You have to balance between getting public support to management to campaigning to taking action and standing outside of embassies. Also, you need to respect the other twin track diplomatic channel. We at Humanists International, our reputation is something that we value very highly. Many governments and international agencies around the world, because we practice the restraint and the long-term and quiet diplomatic approach, when we do ask for help on the rare occasions; people do respond.

When Mubarak went missing, within 48 hours, our briefing was read by over 25 governments around the world. We had direct contact with foreign ministers, U.N. officials, because we don’t jump on every single case without verification. Because people know that when we ask for help; it is urgent. We have checked for facts. It can be the real challenge. The challenge of what you can say publicly and what you can say privately. As you rightly said, we can’t go into too many details, because it is a core part of diplomacy that you respect the confidentiality of the process. If you think about Mohamed Cheikh Ould Mkhaitir’s case, his release came after months of negotiations with the Mauritanian government. We know some central government authorities would be more than happy to release prisoners of conscience, e.g., Mkhaitir, Gulalai, Mubarak, etc., because the international backlash impacts trade, tarnishes the image of the country. It is an awkward thing for global leaders to have to answer these questions during trade missions.

So, in many cases, we know that they would be far happier to see them released. However, there is also the internal politics in the country. Many, many times, they can’t be seen to lose face with the reactionary extreme religious elements in their country or rival political candidates. There can be so many different layers to what is going on here. Understanding that, and having some input into that process, it can be very helpful. That I an extremely frustrating thing. Because we rightly see someone like Mubarak as a friend and a colleague, as an individual; however, it is difficult to put yourself into the mind of having him as a pawn in some political game playing out in Nigeria. The sad truth is that for some people there; that’s the way that they see it. We have to be able to be willing to have some input. It takes so much trust to have meetings with foreign ministers, U.N. officials, have off the record briefings, and so on. It takes a lot of trust because people have to trust that we will not divulge the details of this communication. It is a very interesting process.

With many cases, you want to shout from the rooftop [Laughing] about all of the amazing work that you’ve been doing; it is very frustrating when you can’t. You have to ask people to trust you that you’re working on it. I can tell you. There are active updates in the last few days. Some certainly positive ones, but we can’t share them publicly, because it would put people at risk to divulge it; it is a very frustrating thing. Because we want people to know what we know. We have to have our eye on the long game. Breaching the trust of some contacts now, it comes with the risk that they won’t tell us things in the future; that’s a risk that we can’t take, frankly. It is a very frustrating line to walk, as I said.

Jacobsen: Gary, thanks so much for your time.

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2022-05-14

Ask Professor Burge 5 – The Trump Administration, Atheists and Jewish Peoples, and Sexual Partners

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/09/22

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about some particularized questions within the research, in brief, on why people voted for Trump, atheists and Jewish peoples, and the number of sexual partners in the last 5 years.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, some quick questions based on the recent research. This is an interesting question. So, when you’re looking at what is more acceptable to say at a dinner party, “I voted for Trump because I want to end abortion,” or, “I voted for Trump because I wanted to end immigration.” Why did people vote for Trump?

Professor Ryan Burge: They’re Republican. He’s a Republican. That’s the simple answer. Aside from anecdotes, the reality is American society; we all understand is more based in religious belief than philosophy, logic, or science. If someone says, “I think Roe v Wade should be overturned and abortion should be illegal in America.” Most people will say, “Okay, I am not going to argue that position with you because you probably got that position from the Bible. You believe what you believe. I believe what I believe.” So, if people say they voted for Trump because of abortion, people will say, “Okay, I understand that.” Then the conversation moves onto something else.

If it is on immigration, like ending the “visa lottery” or something, even moderates or even slightly conservative Republicans will look at you like, “You want to end immigration too?” Evangelicals have gotten really smart at saying the thing that is kind of true, but not exactly true. Because they don’t want to have the conversation at a dinner party or a company party. Because if it is abortion, they know this will end the conversation. If you talk about immigration, you will get, “You’re a racist. You’re a xenophobe.” They are good at posturing themselves. They are really good at PR. This is how they manage to justify their own vote choice. Immigration is more consequential than abortion is for white Evangelicals.

Jacobsen: Why do atheists and Jewish people follow government and public affairs more than anyone else?

Burge: [Laughing] Because they have really high levels of education. Matters like that are tied to education; education is tied to income. Income is tied to following the news. If you own a business, then you will follow the news for business interests. I think it is highly correlated with overall levels of education. Especially for Jewish people, they are heavily populated in highly educated areas, like New England. They are news heavy people. It is who is the locus of where the information is coming from, which is the metropolitan areas. You have to soak into it for Jewish people.

It is all around you all the time. For atheists, 25% of atheists have a bachelor’s degree. It is really, really high, up there with Hindus and Buddhists. People care about education. It is more about demography and education, and less about the religious beliefs or the philosophical beliefs or structure that went into understanding the world. Jewish people have high levels of education as well. It is probably not religion there, and probably demography.

Jacobsen: What about number of sexual partners in the last 5 years?

Burge: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: How has that trend looked from 1991 to 2018? What is the summary statement there?

Burge: I think very stable. That’s the thing for people who don’t follow this very closely. If you look at sexual behaviour in Americans, it is down. For instance, 70% of adults in the last 12 months have had 1 or no sexual partners. That’s a huge – and these are adults too – number. Also, other data show high school students, of them, only 40% of them have had vaginal intercourse in the last 12 months, when it was 55% 20 years ago. That’s a 15-point drop in 2 decades. The number of abortions in America is lower than it has ever been, according to the Guttmacher Institute.

So, when you look at all of these things that tie into sex and sexual behaviour, America is, actually, not nearly as promiscuous as lots of people think it is. Probably, less than 10% of people have had more than 5 sexual partners in the last 5 years. So, when we see these archetypes of these guys who are out being promiscuous with lots of different partners, the reality is that just not true. It is very small percentage of Americans. The reality: Most Americans are monogamous or celibate.

Jacobsen: And that’s a wrap.

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2022-05-14

Ask Jon 17 – Synonymization Fit for Political Purposes

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/09/21

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about the National Democratic Convention.

*Interview conducted on August 24, 2020.*

—

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, it’s hot over there. It’s rainy and muggy over here, hence the British part. There was the Democratic National Convention, recently. You noticed something a lot of other people didn’t notice. Let’s start in brief. What was the thing that you noticed? What was the importance of this Democratic National Convention?

Jonathan Engel: As a secular person, I noticed. On the positive side, the Democratic platform includes a plank on freedom of religion that mentions the freedom to be non-religious, which is a great step forward. But the problem was, nobody reads the platform, but they do tune in to the convention. There are some who I know are secular and are featured speakers like Bernie Sanders, but they do not talk about secularism. It’s only in the platform. On the fourth night, the night Biden gave a speech, which I thought was pretty good.

Overall, I thought the convention went pretty well. I have been a democrat for many, man years. To say, ‘It went pretty well,’ means it wasn’t a total disaster [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: But there was a lot of talk about Biden’s “faith.” Why they don’t talk about religion? I don’t know. The word “faith” is interesting. What does it actually mean? That’s an interesting question. They were talking a lot about faith. As a quick aside, I think a lot of the talk using the word faith came in during the second Bush Administration, George W. Bush. It started as an office of faith based initiatives in the administration, in the White House. I remember thinking, “If he had called it an office of religion-based initiatives, people would say, ‘No, you can’t do that.’ So, they call it: ‘Faith.’” What does the word “faith’ mean at that point?

In any event, on the fourth night, last night, they had a nun, a Catholic un, giving a benediction talking about religion, God, and Jesus. I am sitting there saying to myself, “You belong to an organization that covered up tens of thousands of instances of child abuse. You didn’t resign from that organization. Why are you being given a respected slot in the Democratic National Convention?” To me, if I was a member of an organization where the higher-ups covered up child abuse, I’d quit. In any event, we had senator Chris Coons, who I know is very religious because I have heard him speak before, talking about Biden being a man of faith, etc.

Again, I am not sure exactly what that means. I was turned off by it. I flipped on the basketball game, actually, at the time, because I don’t want to listen to this anymore. The Democratic Party, it is not like I am going to become a Republican or anything. Republicans would be happy to put somebody like me in concentration camps, “Move over immigrant children, and bring in the heathens.” It is not like I have anywhere else to go. I feel the progress has been made in the Democratic Party a little bit. But again, the platform being the evidence of that and the webinar from the secular democrats being part of that.

But when it comes to the big events, they are still squeamish about us. I think that hurts our attempt to be seen and heard in the greater community because here is a place; they would never say anything that that thought was even inadvertently offensive to many of the constituent groups of the Democratic Party, e.g., women, blacks, Latinx people, the LGBTQ community, but they feel comfortable saying things that are somewhat offensive to their secular part of their constituency.

That was problematic for me. Again, I support Biden and Harris. I actually like them both. But I don’t want to be ignored; I would like to get a little respect.

Jacobsen: Something as well, you pointed out something about the United States Constitution. You are a trained lawyer. You do have a J.D., a juris doctor.

Engel: I do. A few weeks ago, Trump, who will say anything [Laughing], was attacking Biden and said, “Biden is anti-God, anti-religion, and anti-Bible.” When democrats responded pretty uniformly, it was by pointing out Biden is a regular Catholic who goes to church. So, it’s not true. What I didn’t here democrats say, except for me, and my platform is pretty limited, “Article VI, Paragraph 3 of he Constitution says, ‘There shall never be any religious test for any office or trust under the United States.’ That’s in the Constitution. It was put there for a reason.

There was a perfect time to say that. It was a perfect time to say, “Look, he is wrong on the facts. Joe is religious. But it really doesn’t matter. Look at the Constitution.” It is a perfect teachable moment. I can tell you. I strongly doubt that there are many Americans who know about that provision in the Constitution. It was a time to say, “Hey, there is no religious test.” That is what the Founding Fathers put on the founding document. So, it doesn’t matter what Joe’s beliefs are. I didn’t here that. It was also disappointing to me. It was a great opportunity to teach people about the Constitution. You have so many people who think that this country was founded as a Christian religious nation, when it was clearly not. It was a great opportunity, in my view, missed to educate the general public about true freedom of religion from the Constitution. If freedom of religion doesn’t include the right to be free from religion, then it’s really pretty much worthless.

Jacobsen: Jon! Thank you for your time.

Engel: Oh, it’s my pleasure, Scott, as always. You take care of yourself.

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2022-05-14

An Interview with Gayle Jordan – Executive Director, Recovering From Religion

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/28

Gayle Jordan is the Executive Director of Recovering From Religion. Her biography states: “Gayle is a former Southern Baptist who left the faith 10 years ago when her then-teenagers began asking questions she could not answer. Her research led her (and her children) into the light of reason and rationality. Years later, she still feels the effects, both positive and negative, of that dramatic shift in perspective and attitude. It is this sympathy and compassion that drives her to reach out to help others navigate the emotional and physical process involved in leaving one’s faith. Gayle is an attorney and former personal trainer. She lives on Freethought Farm in middle Tennessee, where she spends her days amongst her longhorns, goats, donkeys, chickens, and dogs. She blogs about life on the farm, endurance event training, and secularism at Happy. Healthy. Heathen.“

*Interview conducted on June 6, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So! Today, we are with one of my favourite women secularists who I have been waiting a long time to interview. Happily, Dr. Darrel Ray of Recovering From Religion and the Secular Therapy Project gave the recommendation to me. Another person doing the work that needs to be done that hasn’t gotten enough coverage. I want to bring forward something the public may not know about, at least, in Canada, which is a quote or statement from a politician, male politician, who said, “In my 40+ years in politics, I’ve seen few candidates as dangerous as Gayle Jordan. We need to strongly reject her assault on faith and our Tennessee values.”

Gayle Jordan: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: Before we get into the other stuff, what was the context around that? How were you using that quote from that particular male politician?

Gayle Jordan: Thank you for remembering that. I ran for the state senate here in Tennessee in 2016 and in 2018. In 2016, it was a different era. If you remember, it was before the hard times for the U.S. [Laughing]. I didn’t get a lot of attention. It was my first time running for office. When I ran in 2018, it was unique circumstances. It was a special election. We were the only thing on the ballot. Trump had been elected. Things were a little bit different. I have been an atheist activist in my community for about 10 years. There was no getting around the fact that I am an out and vocal and visible atheist, nor did I have any desire to do that. So, when I ran for office that time, all of a sudden, it became an issue.

When we released the first campaign announcement, we said nothing about my beliefs. I was neither going to run on being an atheist, not was I going to run from it. A particular politician tweeted and attached the campaign video – thank you very much.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Jordan: That I was the most dangerous woman he had seen in his 40 years of politics. That person, the politician, was the Lieutenant-Governor of the State of Tennessee. It was a small state senate race. He felt the need to tweet that I was the most dangerous woman he had seen in his 40+ years in politics. I have highlighted that when telling my experience of running as an atheist. There is a talk available on the internet somewhere. I talk about, “Am I that dangerous?” I follow that up, “It depends on what you’re afraid of.” If you analyze it, if you are afraid someone will call you out for the Christian nationalism or the violation of church and state, then I might be the most dangerous woman in politics for you. Thank you for asking about that.

Jacobsen: If we take a long view, I have had some correspondence with some believers along a fundamentalist spectrum from Christian nationalist to end-timers. In corresponding with them, they have this notion, which is unusual as a Canadian. We don’t have this kind of social or political discussion as much if at all, at least in the mainstream media. In America, there is a mainstream discussion, which is illegitimate in my opinion. It comes down to America was founded as a Christian nation. If we look at the Treaty of Tripoli with John Adams stating, “America is not, in any sense, founded on the Christian religion.” The Constitution of the United States of America has no mention of the resurrection, of Christ, of Christianity. It has a firm bound between church and state. Where, then, is this coming from? Even around minor points of “In God We Trust” on the money, but I looked at that too, it didn’t come from 1776. It was imposed in 1956. So, where is this discourse coming from?

Jordan: Goodness sake, that’s the question of the hour. Isn’t it? Especially with the evangelical support of Trump and all of his policies, I can help but plug my friend’s, Andrew Seidel’s, book, The Founding Myth: Why Christian Nationalism Is Un-American. It gives so much background on how we have come here and the propensity for people, if you believe that the country was founded on Judeo-Christian values. It was the greatest motivator. Those two things are connected. The debate is overwhelming. I think it is a combination of the Dominionism of wanting to have control. I think it is the demographic freight train bearing down on a certain political party in our country. They see it the light at the end of the tunnel, as the freight train is bearing down on the. I think a lot plays into it. It is the question of out time. The belief on the part of those evangelicals that to be a Christian is to be a patriot. It is so entwined. Those of us who don’t share that belief are having to make our voices heard, “Really, really, no, that’s not what makes a patriot.” Here’s how I try to bring it around, it is to ask if our Founding Fathers/Founders wanted to make this a Christian nation; how would the Constitution read if they intended it?

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Jordan: The Constitution is so secular. So when you ask the question that way, maybe, it helps people to think. If they wanted this to be a Christian nation, imagine if they wanted the language, then they simply didn’t.

Jacobsen: In the inception of the country, I agree with George Carlin in one of his last interviews. When he noted, of course, there were the crimes against the Native Americans with genocide and stealing of territorial land, enslavement of black Africans into North America, as well as annexation of Mexican land, but the ideas were good. That’s the story of America. Its narrative is a lot of civil and social rights movements, including the emancipation of women. So, at the same time, it is almost as if there has been a lost voice in the freethought community. We hear from Black Nonbelievers of Mandisa Thomas. We hear from Dr. Sikivu Hutchinson in a recent book, Humanists in the Hood. We hear from Hispanic freethinkers. We hear from general community in different categories of atheist, agnostic. All more or less on the same page.

But there’s one group not talked about as much or at all. I am talking about Native Americans in America or Aboriginals in Canada. For clarification of those reading this later on, in Canada, this means First Nations, Metis, and Inuit, where Metis is French-First Nations mix. If you look at the Vice-President of Humanist Canada, he’s Metis. If you look at the Freedom From Religion Foundation of the great Annie Laurie Gaylor and Dan Barker, Barker has Lenni Lenape or the Delaware Tribe of Indians heritage. So, they’re around in community, but I don’t see this discussed as much. Have you noticed this as much?

Jordan: I’m so glad that you brought this up, Scott. I haven’t put a voice to it, quite so much. But as you talk it through and as you identify that, I agree with you. I think that’s a miss on our part if we neglect that. In theory and in the abstract, I think we’d all say, “Yes, let’s reach out, this would be part of the greater secular community.” I don’t think there would be any disagreement about that. But as we have learned through the ages, it takes effort and elevating those voices. I think you’re correct about that. Perhaps, it’s an area where we all need to focus and give some attention and resources to.

Jacobsen: Now, one note, I have heard from some who don’t want mention. But within community, if they’re Aboriginal or Native American, whatever the particular band that they might be from, if they come out as a freethinker – in other words, they reject the supernaturalist claims, though having the ethnic heritage, when they told me, it was the same narrative, I heard, from African Americans who come out of the Baptist Church or the Methodist Church. If they leave, the idea of African American identity being connected to the black church is so entwined. That to leave the black church is to be considered not as much African American anymore or to have “thrown away the black card.” You lose all of the communal and collective resources, e.g., social, financial, etc., within the community, when you reject that supernaturalism. It appears to be the same, at least in some small sample that I’ve heard from, in some of the Aboriginal or Native American communities. That would be something that I would want the public to be sensitive about if they were to do any of this form of outreach. It will not be easy.

Jordan: Clearly, and unfortunately, as we have discovered through the African American community, and through others who have struggled with this, there appears to be one way out of that. That is visibility and breaking free of it. Those folks who are leaders, e.g., Mandisa, and others in the African American community. It takes taking the pushback and getting all of the negative comments, the negative feedback, and everything associated with that seems to help a way out. We have to help those people show that it’s not true. That just because we have rejected supernatural beliefs, and because we have rejected this cultural tradition, this church or whatever belief system, doesn’t take away from us, our heritage. I think you’re right. I think we need to go into that kind of outreach with that kind of sensitivity, as in every cultural movement. Those leaders, those folks who lead the way. They have to take so much of that pushback. I think that’s, tragically, the way out of it. It is to become visible, to become vocal, to become seen.

Jacobsen: Now, you are the executive for Recovering From Religion. First things first, how did you get involved?

Jordan: I am a formerly religious person. When I made my transition, it was 10 or 12 years ago now. Recovering From Religion was nothing but a germ of an idea in the brain of the brilliant Dr. Darrel Ray. As I began to transition, as I began to become familiar with the secular community, when the opportunity became available for this, it was such a wonderful experience. Our mission statement is so straightforward, Scott. We provide hope, healing, and support for folks who are struggling with issues of doubt and non-belief. We zealously guard mission drift. Everything we do has been focused around that statement. In such alignment with my own experience, it was a pleasure and a privilege for me to join the organization and to have the opportunity to lead it forward. It has been one of the greatest joys in my life.

Jacobsen: What are some of the heartening stories?

Jordan: As you know, we have a 24-hour telephone chat and 24-hour internet chat. The reason is we’re international. Not only are out clients around the world, our volunteers are as well. As folks reach out to us, we have a spectrum of where people originate. They might just be having doubts. They might be highly religious and just have doubts, and feel as if they can reach out with a question as we are a non-judgmental place. They may be very far in their journey, but they may need a little support. The stories that we’ve heard. Some of them start arduously. They are starting to have doubts and working through them. We ask questions and give feedback to help them process what they’re thinking and feeling. Some of those conversations, even in the course of a chat or a telephone call, you can see the person, not make progress to discount their beliefs but them, develop their critical thinking skills, developing their own skepticism. So, they can look squarely at what they embraced and have been taught to believe, and apply their minds to whether or not this is a reasonable, scientific evidence-based logical belief to embrace.

To me, that is the heartwarming stories. Of course, there are always stories of people who have always come through some pretty fundamentally damaging experiences and have come through the other side, but, for me, the gratifying phone calls are when people learn, “Okay, why do I believe this? Where did this come from? Let me examine it. Is there evidence for it?” That’s the process. We don’t want to tell people what religion does. It is not healthy anyway. We want them to tap into their own ability to be skeptical and critical of their beliefs. From my perspective, those are the heartwarming stories.

Jacobsen: Where are you getting most of your calls?

Jordan: Most of them start in the United States. But we, recently, added unique numbers for Australia and the United Kingdom. So, they can use our phone system. Before, they were limited because they were limited to the internet. With the addition of the other numbers, there is an increase. Let’s say there is a call from Australia, but it is ringing into an actual Australian volunteer, we see this beautiful picture happening with the clients and the volunteers coming from all over to provide this hope, healing, and support to those folks who are having these questions.

Jacobsen: What are some of the most common concerns brought to you?

Jordan: If you think this question through yourself, then you can probably do pretty good. One is, “How can you be a moral person without religion?” It seems to underly a lot of things. That seems like a big one. Another is the lingering fear of hell. The underlying stuff of the belief system, you should because it is such a horrifying concept. Another reason people reach out to the helpline because of the fractured social relationships. When you disassociate with a faith, there are people in community who cannot manage that any other way than saying, “You’re discarding me, this community, by rejecting what we commonly believe.” It is not the truth because people leave a religion, not the family, but the rest of family is in the grips of the religion. It is difficult for those folks to reject the belief without rejecting the family. The fracturing, it is the main reason for the internet and the phone line.

Jacobsen: Are there different kinds of questions men and women bring forward when they are looking to find a way out of a religious community? I can give an example as a trend. If you look at some of the former Muslim communities coming out of theocratic or outright theocracy countries, they, often, note the men have a lot more social freedom, a lot more access to financial resources. The men have a lot more leeway in terms of freedom in their lives. The women don’t. They are stuck in the home and don’t have control over the financial situation. Also, they don’t have any training to become independent in any way. Women would have more concerns, concrete and actionable, based on more degrees of freedom for the men and the fewer degrees of freedom for the women.

Jordan: What an astute analysis of the gender issue that would arise in the helpline, you’ve already identified from the surface, so many religions are so patriarchal. The restrictions on the men are so vastly different, particularly in the fundamentalist versions of all the religions. The role restrictions for men and for women, another thing is the women are often stuck with the childrearing. It feeds into their questions. Let’s say a young mother having concerns about that, it will reflect directly on her parenting. She will be terrified of this. She is applying critical thinking skills. At the same time, she has the burden, “I am going to have an impact on my children if I come out.” The men do too. But I think the women, particularly in traditional relationships, traditional families, which is another thing. Women have to deal with this as they come to us. It is not just gender roles. It is sexuality as well. Religion is so intrusive into our management – so to speak – of our sexuality. It is another entire layer, which has to be dissected and examined, relearned, and unindoctrinated, to come to conclusions about one’s gender and sexuality. Those issues are heavy with the religious community as people come to us to work with their struggles.

Jacobsen: Also for the DMS-V, in 2013, sex or sexual addiction was proposed for inclusion. It was rejected. Therefore, it is not a formal psychological condition, syndrome, or disorder. However, as I have done some research on many of these, many Christian counsellors will specialize in what they term ‘Sexual Addiction.’ They’re coming out of these training institutes or universities, private. They will specialize or do treatment in ‘Sexual Addiction.’ At the same time, they probably will know as well. It is not included in any DSM sections. In a manner of speaking, they are broadly doing malpractice to the general public when they are proposing this as a psychological construct. It is, actually, Dr. Darrel Ray pointed out to me. It is a theological construct posed as psychological.

Jordan: What a perfect segue into The Secular Therapy Project, we have a professional staff of colleagues and counsellors. Advocates who only provide evidence-based therapy. When a client reaches out, they are able to find them in their community. Secular therapists are at a disadvantage. If they hang out a shingle saying, “Only secular therapy here,” America is so heavily religious. In a lot of religious areas, this would decimate their practice. Even though religious people want a secular therapy, oftentimes, they will have an adverse reaction to “secular.” They’re in a catch-22. Recently, we’ve helped our 20,000^th client because we have done the groundwork in making sure therapists only provide that (evidence-based therapy). The expression, “Sex Addiction,” the language, itself, implies sex is a bad thing. You have too much of it. It is going to be a problem. You’re right. It hasn’t been included as a diagnosis. However, often, therapists who are not secular therapists and who are not as scrupulous about providing secular therapy will go about treating, thinking, “This is a thing.”

Dr. Darrel Ray, the founder of Recovering From Religion and the president of the board of directors, if you look online, has a massive amount of lectures, which he as done on this. He has studies he has done on this. This is something Recovering From Religion supports through The Secular Therapy Project is ensuring that you do not walk into a therapist’s office who doesn’t look remotely religious on the outside. Yet, you open up in the sessions. You reveal personal information to them. Then in the 3^rd, 4^th, or more sessions, and then they begin to hear about finding a church community and about ‘sex addiction.’

Jacobsen: Now, I have done some educational sessions with Dr. Caleb Lack. Who are some other individuals people should keep in mind, support, signal boost in other words, on behalf of The Secular Therapy Project and Recovering From Religion?

Jordan: I appreciate you giving the opportunity to say that. Dr. Caleb Lack was the director of The Secular Therapy Project for about four years. He stepped down last December. He serves as emeritus and gives us counsel. Dr. Eric Sprankle is now the director of The Secular Therapy Project. He and his staff, all of the information can be found at our website: www.recoveringfromreligion.org and https://www.seculartherapy.org/. The work that they’re doing on what you mentioned earlier about academics. The people coming out of training with licenses and degrees. Yet, they are providing religious therapy to people. That’s a problem. Because people lean into this. It is not legitimate therapy. He and his staff, Dr. Sprankle and his staff are working to educate folks and help clients who reach out to us understand. It matters. Evidence-based therapy matter in the long-term mental health in everyone who needs some kind of mental health assistance.

Jacobsen: Is this part of another long-term trend in the United States, Canada, elsewhere, or religious individuals consciously being told by religious leaders to reach out to vulnerable people to spread the Gospel or whatever it might be?

Jordan: I think so. In trying to give them every benefit of the doubt, and trying to see them in the best light possible, perhaps, they are doing that consciously or their indoctrination coming through. Or perhaps, it is a little more insidious and intentional. They do see the value of exploiting folks who need a little bit of support and assistance. Drilling down on those doubts and fears, and supplanting and furthering religious doctrine, so, people can stay longer in the religion. I mentioned the demographic freight train with young people leaving religion. I would hate to think that religious mental health practitioners are doing this intentionally. Unfortunately, religion has the power to do that to people. I think the answer is it is probably more intentional than we would like for it to be.

Jacobsen: There is a lot of talk, appropriate at the moment, around forms of institutional discrimination. There is a long-term one, as long as many others, which is anti-freethought-ism, or something like this, where individuals, by the nature of legal apparatus and the policy and law framework, are left out of the power structures of the society. Dr. Herb Silverman made a record in South Carolina when he challenged a case around atheists not being allowed to run for public office. Many of those laws are on the book. That’s one case among many. How could we, potentially, for instance, alongside your own efforts, make a public effort of identifying these discriminatory policies and frameworks?

Jordan: That’s a good question. There are seven states whose state constitutions prevent an atheist from running for office. I think the language is something like a ‘belief in a higher power.’ They are archaic. Yet, they exist. They are still there. We have learned from LGBTQ brothers and sisters, and other social movements, that visibility is everything. It is the way we normalize it whenever we’re visible. Every time we get blowback. It is less if they have seen a series of freethinkers. You can almost gauge a person’s exposure to this thing [Laughing] by how strong their reaction is.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Jordan: Because the next person is a little bit less, and the next a little bit less. It is the key to letting people know. I am not the first person to think of this. As secular organizations, we all recognize visibility normalizes us. It makes people realize, even in the most religious of communities, that there are freethinking people among us. Whether you are running for state senate or just a member of your community, or volunteering on your local animal control board, or whatever it is, it is not that you have to wear an atheist shirt every time that you show up. Each person has to make a determination as to how they are going manage who they are, but not keeping it a secret that you are a freethinker, going with the flow, not disabusing someone of the notion that you’re a religious person. These are things that we need to get away from. Let us be visible, let us be vocal, let us be verbal, and agree, that kind of thing does more to further what we’re doing.

You don’t have to be outstanding or a high achieve, just a normal member of community who happens not to be a member of the community. As we make progress as a society, the more we can show that we are happy, healthy, functioning, contributing members of a society, and do not have religious belief. I think that is where the progress will come from. We need the big dogs. We need the big visibility. But not everyone can do that or wants to do that. Your family, your small neighbourhood, “I am a normal person like everyone else. I have struggles. I have issues. My kids are involved in this. Yet, I am not a religious person.” That on the granular level is as important as the high achievers.

Jacobsen: Now, on the gender and sex point, I wrote a several ten thousand word article incorporating several interviews over a significant amount of time of women in the secular community in terms of disproportionate negative treatment cases with some noteworthy news cases or a lack of representation of women of color in some of the organizational leadership, or the void in coverage on the history of women who have been very powerful moral forces in the history of secular activism across the freethought spectrum. It can even come to the case of people like Frederick Douglass being the first African American man part of a congress or a conference of women’s suffragists. And so, we see these areas of just below the surface, not hidden history, just overlooked history. What do you think are some things in the 2020s secular organizations could do to better cover the history that is there, and then to provide better representation for women in leadership? Some are doing this. It is not a concern for them. It is area of newer emphasis.

Jordan: Sure, it is a good question. My answer will not surprise you. The number one thing our secular organizations can do is to model this and to bring in women in positions of leadership, not just women, e.g., people of color. The modelling is the very first step. There is value to campaigns to try to educate people. The Freedom From Religion Foundation does a good job, highlights the voices in history. I think we all need to do that. At least as important as that, it is modelling. It is elevating them to positions of leadership, so they can be heard, can be highlighted. I think our movement is not perfect. I think as a secular movement as a whole; if we’re not succeeding at it, at least, we’re recognizing it. Of course, we can always do better. Out of all of the areas of our society, we have a responsibility because we understand the value in recognizing the lesser heard voice, to highlight them and bring them to the front. I think it takes an active intention on the part of our organizations – implementing and doing it is another thing. Modelling is the most important part of it.

Jacobsen: And this is a moral or an ethical question, which leads to something I wanted to talk about as well. A split in philosophical discourses in America and the United States, far more in the United States than in Canada. One is a transcendental traditional religious ethic, where morality gets outsourced to a transcendent object, which asserts grounds this morality more. Another is an international (secular) human rights framework for deciding or deliberating on various ethical questions. Now, the former does not permit equal status for the other part, while the latter does permit freedom of religion, belief, and conscience, which implies equal status for all. So, if we’re going to have an equal future together, religious/non-religious, then it will have to be an international human rights framework rather than a transcendental religious framework as nations and individuals. What are some risks in the United States with the rise of President Trump, Evangelical Christian nationalism, even Dominionism, into areas of decision-making power, policy-making power, with extraordinarily devout movements who simply want to have a religious framework on the world placed into political power and legal structures, which is not theocracy outright but is a theocratic orientation, certainly?

Jordan: What a profound question [Laughing], and what a profound topic, that’s everything. It has been the desire of the secular movement. We go through phases. We go through progressions, “What is our focus?” Sometimes, we focus on the right to not be religious, which is great. We fight for it. Sometimes, we fight for current cultural issues, racism, sexism. All of them are valid. What underlies all of that, and, maybe, the conversation fundamental to all of it is, “What does it mean to us, to be a good, moral person?” That is fundamentally the conversation. What do we mean by those words? What is a fundamentally good person? How do we dissect what religion teach and what a secular worldview gives us? Let’s first talk about, what does it mean to us to be a good, kind, moral person?

When we define that, it may be a little more subjective. It may not be entirely objectively because of regional and cultural differences. But if we can lay the groundwork for respecting other people’s human rights, respecting other people’s civil rights, giving people to follow their conscience, first, we have to decide that. What does it mean? Then, now, we can move onto the conversation. What most fosters that? What most fosters people being good members of the community, of the society? What are the activities one needs to take? DO we embrace universal education for all citizens? Let’s define what we mean by being a good human being, being a good citizen, how do we have that happen? Do religions foster that? Any religion of any kind, do they do that? Does a secular worldview do that? I think religious folks, as they struggle through this, as they work against their indoctrination; this authoritarian, Dominionist attitude, let’s not make it too personal, yet, on particular religions.

First, let’s talk about caring about fellow human beings, what does it take for a village or a society to thrive, for everyone to thrive? Then let’s see how we do that, I have gotten a little far afield. Your question is profound. I wish I had the answer to it. Fundamentally, backing away from “Is religion good?” or “Is there a God?”, those are great and theoretical. But first let’s identify, what makes for a healthy, thriving society, which, of course, is made of healthy and thriving individuals? Then we can go forward from there. Maybe, that is the conversation that we’re not having enough of; it may help reach the religious brothers and sisters more rather than bringing religion into it from the beginning.

Jacobsen: Looking to the final question for our denouement, on the note we started, for the woman seen as the most dangerous woman in 40+ years of this politician’s political life, what are the most effective pivots, pressure points, for secular activism in America now?

Jordan: I think, in the United States, it is a shit show. We have so many issues, which are critical “pressure points,” “pivot points,” as you call them. Secular people need to lead the way on this, whether criminal justice, economic equality. All of the components of that. We have sexism. We have such foundational inequality in economics. We have educational inequality. All of these, we are in a mess right now. We’ll get through this. Right now, instead of seeing this as a tremendous difficult time, we can see this as the secular worldview in which there is not the decisiveness of religion. It may not be a way to solve these issues, but to better resolve these issues. Let’s model the way that secular thought and embracing, we’re all human beings, faulty human beings. The secular worldview of there’s no chosen people. There’s not a blessed people. When we get away from that, we will see that we are all in this together. We will all thrive when we work take care of one another, build our communities, work together, when we try to resolve some of these issues, the secular worldview has a greater ability to bring us out of this. It is not an easy task. It will not be solved in one generation, or even two or three. It is our best avenue out of these cultural issues that we are beset by, as we go through this difficult time in our history. I think all of these are potential pivot points. I think all of us need the attention of the secular community and the explanation of how a secular worldview can bring us closer to resolving this issue than any kind of religious worldview ever has.

Jacobsen: Gayle, it’s been lovely. Thank you so much for your time.

Jordan: Oh! It has been lovely. I am so grateful for being able to do this. It has been wonderful, Scott. Not only am I grateful for it on behalf of Recovering From Religion, but I have thoroughly enjoyed it, I appreciate you reaching out to me.

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2022-05-14

Conversation with Jennifer Herrera – Vice President, External Affairs, National Women’s History Museum (U.S.)

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/25

Jennifer Herrera, M.A., vice president of external affairs, is the chief communications officer for the National Women’s History Museum, where she oversees all public affairs, marketing, and media relations efforts.

On August 26, 2020, the National Women’s History Museum will celebrate the 100th anniversary of the ratification of the 19th Amendment with a full day of free programming and the launch of its new non-partisan voter engagement initiative, Women Vote, Women Win. Programming includes two virtual “Determined to Rise” panels, several film screenings, and a concert and rally to increase votes by and for women before the November election.

*Interview conducted on August 25, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This is from the National Women’s History Museum. We’re going to be taking a programmatic perspective, an organizational perspective, on women’s history, women’s rights, in the United States. As many have noted, I am not original on this. This is a crucial moment in American rights history. What are some of the flagship programs of the National Women’s History Museum in regards to reminding individuals of the importance of fighting for women’s rights? In addition, how do you convey some of the histories of women’s rights to the next generations who are standing atop those rights? So, they may not understand the history of the rights or the time before the rights being established.

Jennifer Herrera: We exist as a museum because, traditionally, have been left out of the history books. We know that so many women’s history, voices, and stories remain uncovered and unshared. So, we feel a great responsibility to bring these stories to the light of day. That’s our responsibility as an institution. We do this through programming and events and providing resources to learners of all ages. So, that way, they can take away a broader and more complete understanding of history that includes the many contributions and accomplishments of the women who helped write it. In terms of conveying to the next generation, history is now. History is the past, but it is also the present. It is looking at history with the imperative lens of, not only uncovering the voices of the past but, also documenting the stories as we go. So, that way, in the future, we don’t have to construct the stories in hindsight. We have narratives. We know what the many accomplishments of women are. That’s our charge. We want to make sure that historic stories and contemporary stories are being told, so women are not left behind.

We do this through a lot of programming and events. For example, a few months ago, we launched the project, in the wake of the pandemic, called “Women Writing History.” The coronavirus journaling project, we asked women to share their experiences with us – of living through Covid-19. We asked them to do that in a variety of ways. We talk about the concept of journaling. What is journaling? It is not writing in a physical journal; it could be keeping an online diary, photographs, art, videos, iPhone recordings, and so on. Any way we can get women to document their experiences. We wanted them to do for this project. We asked women to journal in whatever way fits their preferences. To date, we have over 900 women to participate in this coronavirus journal project. Since we have asked them to submit physical copies or electronic copies for 30, 60, 90 days, or more, we are starting to collect the submissions from over the last several months. Because women want their voices heard. They don’t want to be left out of the Covid-19 story.

Jacobsen: Now, with the previous election in the United States and the current Trump Administration, following it, there was a very rapid series of forms of activism on the parts of men and women for women’s rights. How does the history look in the United States? Is this a common theme? A theme where there is either a representative, a movement, or a change in the legal structure that would either threaten or pull back the women’s rights gains in the United States, then there is a massive or a reasonably large pushback to re-instantiate and further some of the progress for women’s rights in the United States? Is this a common theme?

Herrera: Yes, time and time again, we have seen women at the forefront of social change. Often, they are under-represented in the narrative about the change. As a museum dedicated to the representation of women, it is really exciting to us to see such historic progress being made in terms of the representation of women across all political spectrums, across all levels of government. Women stepping off the sidelines and engaging in politics in whatever form. It is exciting to see women are working to support other women. They are creating organizations to ensure women can run for office and ensuring women can be elected to office. I am not sure if that answers the question. Women continue to be at the forefront of social change. We saw historic levels of participation in 2016, in 2018. Again, we see it this year, where so many women are running for office and breaking the barriers that still have yet to be broken, fighting to break these barriers.

Jacobsen: What is the importance of the recent news about Kamala Harris in the United States?

Herrera: Kamala continues to break barriers. So, the significance is how truly incredible it is – to have a woman running on a major party ticket. It speaks to women running at all levels of government. The urgency and the need to have this representation in the highest levels of government. It is historic. She is the first black woman and first Asian-American woman to run for Vice-President on a major party ticket. That is groundbreaking. That shouldn’t be a one-off. It should be every year. We continue to see women represented at the highest levels of government, whether a gubernatorial race or even on the down-ballot races. Women continue to be under-represented in politics. But we are making change, progress has been made. Kamala’s inclusion on this ticket speaks volumes because it is another place where women have made progress. What we hope to see moving forward, women are included on other tickets. This representation should happen in every election.

Jacobsen: We should cover something, which I received this morning. It is a new initiative coming out of the National Women’s History Museum. It is called “Women Vote, Women Win.” What was the inspiration for the initiative or the ways people can attend?

Herrera: On the 26th of August, it is the celebration of the ratification of the 19th Amendment. It is a pivotal moment in American history and women’s history. We recognized, for so many women, the fight continues, so many women of colour, Native American women, Asian American women, black women, Hispanic women. It is really important to highlight all of the women who worked so hard for the right to vote. Not just up until 1920, but beyond, there were so many women involved in this fight. The history routinely covers very few of them. It was the inspiration for how we celebrate the centennial and recognizing that this fight was so extensive and continues today with voting rights. We need to make sure. What better way to honour all of the women who fought bravely for the right of women to vote than asking women today to become active, engaged citizens in democracy by voting themselves? So, we really wanted to recognize the hard work and the tremendous sacrifices women have made for the right to vote by encouraging participation in this fundamental right.

Jacobsen: If we are looking at the election and after the election coming up, on the assumption that it runs, what are some of the plans for initiatives, events, after that point – forms of activism after that election?

Herrera: In terms of the initiatives, we’re doing. So, we’re in the middle of planning right now. Our focus is to ensure there is a greater representation of women and women’s stories heard, included in the history books, as we continue to write history today. How are these stories and narratives shared? What we plan to do after the election, it is still coming together, as you can imagine. The pandemic has changed a lot of things that we were planning on doing in person. It has opened up a lot of possibilities in terms of the content. We continue to deliver, virtually. We are going to continue to mark the centennial, the ratification of the 19th Amendment with more programming, e.g. “Determined to Rise” series, additional panel discussion, additional publications, and sharing the content from the panel discussions that we’ve already had before. We’re looking to explore opportunities with women, trail-blazing women, as they related to their work primarily in politics, advocacy work. The next issue of our magazine will look at women and the pandemic to share the stories of women on the front lines and explore how women are being disproportionately affected by Covid-19. Our late Fall issue/early Winter issue, will come out in December is about the centennial and the fantastic organizations, which exist to support women running for public office and holding elected office. We are continuing to develop content and programming that really shows the power of women voting, shows the power of women engaging in the political process at all levels of government. It is the power of what happens when a woman steps off the sidelines and decides to become engaged.

Jacobsen: Jennifer, thank you so much for your time today.

Herrera: Thank you, Scott, I really appreciate it.

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2022-05-14

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 8 (w/ Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967) – Annexation, International Law, Occupation, Rights, and Settlements

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/18

Professor S. Michael Lynk is the current (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 (March, 2016 to Present). He is an Associate Professor at the Faculty of Law, Western University, in London, Ontario, who works in one of the most important legal and investigative positions in the history of rights and law reportage for the United Nations on this issue of Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

Language of the oPt/OPT is recognized in the work of the OHCHR, Amnesty International, Oxfam International, United Nations, World Health Organization, International Labor Organization, UNRWA, UNCTAD, and so on. Some see the Israeli-Palestinian issue as purely about religion. Thus, this matters to freethought. These ongoing interviews explore this issue in more depth.

Here we continue with the 8th part in our series of conversations with coverage in the middle of March to the middle of April for the Israeli-Palestinian issue. With the deportation of Shakir, this follows in line with state actions against others, including Amnesty International staff member Laith Abu Zeyad when attempting to see his mother dying from cancer (Amnesty International, 2019a; Zeyad, 2019; Amnesty International, 2020), United States Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib and United States Congresswoman Ilhan Omar who were subject to being barred from entry (Romo, 2019), Professor Noam Chomsky who was denied entry (Hass, 2010), and Dr. Norman Finkelstein who was deported in the past (Silverstein, 2008). Shakir commented in an opinion piece:

Now, based on the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court and the actions of the Member State of the United Nations, Israel, he, for this session, works from Amman, Jordan. Similarly, Lynk remains prevented from carrying out the full capacities of the position based on barring from entry.

*Interview conducted on May 13, 2020. The previous interview conducted on April 19, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: To begin, this is a 3-way conversation with S. Michael Lynk and Omar Shakir. We are going to talk about annexation and an overview of the Israel-Palestine issue (Jacobsen, 2020a). On May 1, Michael, you released a press release (United Nations Human Rights Office of the High Commissioner, 2020) that was based around some of the annexation ongoing, which is based on a proposal from the White House (White House Staff, 2020). Also, the outcome would be akin to, or would be, Bantustans (The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica, 2019). The terms used by you, phrasing, “Palestinian Bantustan, an archipelago of disconnected islands of territory” (United Nations Human Rights Office of the High Commissioner, 2020). Can you expand on some of that and the implications for the lives of Palestinians and rights?

Professor Michael Lynk: This stems, most immediately, from the proposals in the Trump Peace to Prosperity plan (White House Staff, 2020) released at the end of January 2020, which calls for, among other things, the annexation by Israel of 30% of the West Bank, including much of the Jordan Valley and all of the 240 or more settlements (BBC News, 2020a; United Nations Human Rights Office of the High Commissioner, 2019). Obviously, the ones already in East Jerusalem are annexed, but 225 to 230 in the West Bank (Collard, 2012). This includes not only those who are close to the Israeli border, the seamline, and the separation wall, but also those who are quite deep into Palestinian territory. They create fingers of annexation and sovereignty, which would make an archipelago of what the Palestinians would be left with – to have a “state.”[1]

The important point to make about the annexation – that is, the formal de jure[2] annexation by Israel as outlined in the Trump plan and, apparently, as agreed to by the coalition agreement between Mr. Netanyahu and his new partner, Benny Gantz – is that it changes everything and it changes nothing (BBC News, 2020b).

It changes everything in the sense that Israel is now planning to step forward and make a formal annexation of about 1/3rd of the West Bank including all of the settlements in the occupied territory (Federman, 2020a; Zion, 2020; Federman, 2020b; The Associated Press). Eventually, this would mean the application of Israeli domestic law to the settlements instead of the formulation of the forms of special laws applying to the settlements (Amnesty International, 2019b).[3]

So, this changes everything in the sense that it is another form of annexation in East Jerusalem in 1980 and the Syrian Golan Heights in 1981 (UNISPAL, 1997; Jacobsen, 2020c; ECF, 2019).[4] Neither of which were recognized by the international community.[5] Both annexations were condemned in U.N. Security Council resolutions (United Nations, 1980a; United Nations, 1980b).[6],[7] This new annexation will now require the international community, particularly Europe and other powerful players in North America and other places in the Western world, to express a stance and, ideally, to take sanction measures[8] against Israel in the same way with sanction measures applied to Russia and its annexation of Crimea in 2014.[9],[10] This changes everything, as I said, in the formal renunciation of the Oslo process[11] and the end to any meaningful Palestinian state[12].

But it also changes nothing. The lives of Palestinians either in Area C (OCHAOPT, n.d.) under Israeli civil and security control or the Palestinians in Areas A and B in the towns and cities primarily in the center of the West Bank don’t change at all (BBC News, 2019). As before, they won’t have access to settlement roads (B’Tselem, 2004). As before, they will continue to lose land to settlement and military use by the Israeli occupation (Tahhan, 2017). As before, they still will not be able to vote in elections to form the government that ultimately controls their day to day decisions of their lives, i.e., the Israeli government (Krauss, & Daraghmeh, 2019).[13] What has happened over the last 50 years has been the steady process of a de facto annexation, where Israel took many different steps to alienate property from the Palestinians in the West Bank and offered enormous incentives for Israelis and immigrants to Israel to move into these settlements, which geographically hemmed in the Palestinians (El-Ad, 2020).

What the Palestinians have been left with are archipelagos of fragmented lands, there are 165 different islands of land in the West Bank, meaning that the Palestinians have very restricted freedom of movement (B’Tselem, 2017). When you have restricted personal freedom of movement, it also means restricted freedom of movement with respect to trading, importing goods, and finding external markets for their products as well (European Commission, 2020). So, you have a stunted economy with the restricted freedom of movement (B’Tselem, 2017; European Commission, 2020). All in all, what may happen or probably will happen sometime after the first of July will be a seismic change in the Middle East with the endorsement of a formal annexation. Yet, in many other ways, it will remain a continuation of life as it has been for the Palestinians as it has been.

Jacobsen: Omar, from the point of view of Human Rights Watch, how is this continuation going on without much or any consequences for the Israeli government?

Omar Shakir: In many ways, the Israeli push for annexation stems from the failure of the international community to sufficiently use its leverage to stop systematic Israeli rights abuse.[14] The reality here goes back decades. Israel has continued to build settlements, which are a clear violation of international humanitarian law[15], and have continued to further entrench a discriminatory system that treats Palestinians living in the same territory separately and unequally in virtually every aspect of life from legal status, to freedom to move, to freedom to build, to security of the legal status, to their ability to access water and electricity (Human Rights Watch, 2010). Annexation, in many ways, would merely formalize what has been the de facto reality where the Israeli government controls the entire area between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River and rules over Palestinians unequally compared to Jewish Israelis and systematically suppresses them (Human Rights Watch, 2019b; Human Rights Watch, 2018; Human Rights Watch, 2019a; Human Rights Watch, 2020a). The reality is the peace process for half the life of the occupation has effectively become a fig leaf for this discriminatory Israeli rule. The international community allowed itself to be sucked into the narratives of temporary occupation, Palestinian self-governance, Israeli egalitarian democracy, and the peace process; all of which are smoke screens to a very apparent reality, where 6.6 million or so Palestinians live in this area between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea, as do 6.6 or so Jewish Israelis, with Palestinians treated unequally in virtually every aspect of life.

The international community should use annexation as a wake-up call to both understand the reality of what is going on, on the ground, as well as to adopt the human rights based measures regularly taken in other parts of the world with abuses this grave. A peace process assumes that the problem is one that negotiations, as opposed to human rights measures, can cure. It is the wrong diagnosis for the underlying problem here. I think it’s beyond time in the international community to shift to action and accountability in holding Israeli authorities, as well as Palestinians when they abuse rights, to account for their serious abuses (Human Rights Watch, 2020b; Human Rights Watch, 2017).

Lynk: If I can add to that.

Jacobsen: Please.

Lynk: I don’t think that we would be here today discussing annexation here in 2020 if the world had imposed meaningful accountability measures in 1980 with the annexation of Jerusalem or in 1981 with the annexation of the Syrian Golan Heights (ECF, 2019; UNISPAL, 1997; Jacobsen, 2020c). We have virtually all the laws that we need to be able to assess that this occupation is illegal. The settlements are illegal.[16],[17],[18] The human rights violations – the various forms of collective punishment[19],[20], the blockage of Gaza[21],[22], the denial of self-determination[23] – are illegal; the location of the separation wall, is illegal. What we need is not more laws, we need accountability (The Palestinian Information Center, 2019; Jacobsen, 2020d; United Nations General Assembly, 2019).[24] It has been sorely missing in all of this. What I often note, particularly in the last weeks when discussing the issue of annexation with international audiences, is how swift the international community was to bring in meaningful and significant sanctions against Russia in 2014 with respect to its annexation of Crimea[25] and Sevastopol[26] (European Council/Council of the European Union, 2020; Popovici, 2018). Even though, these sanctions didn’t have the endorsement of the United Nations because of the Russian veto[27] in the Security Council (Chappell, 2014). Yet, there was a very swift movement to degrade political relations with Russia, to bring in targeted sanctions on specific individuals, to bring meaningful collective sanctions which significantly impacted on the Russian economy, and to ban goods coming out of Sevastopol and Crimea going to the world market (Gutterman, Grojec, & RFE/RL’s Current Time, 2018). It was done quickly. And it wasn’t done without cost to countries in Europe, particularly Eastern Europe, based on their dependence on Russian aid.

Here, we are talking about Israel, a country with 6% of the Russian population[28], which is heavily dependent on trade and with cultural ties to Europe and many parts of the world, including the United States. There have never been meaningful sanctions brought in to oppose Israeli policy. Even though, there are volumes of Security Council and General Assembly resolutions against the various forms of illegality that are integral to this 53-year-old occupation. As a result, there is a strong sense of impunity among the Israeli political leadership.

Today, we have come the point where almost 10% of the Israeli Jewish population are living in settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, which has led to the pro-annexation lobby, a critical mass of the population (Myre, & Kaplow, 2016). When I did a nose count of the 120 Knesset members elected in the April election, I could only count 18 members of the Knesset who are opposed to the settlements and who would end them if they were in a position of power. 18 out of 120 are in that particular position. So, there is enormous domestic political support. Primarily because the ordinary Israeli doesn’t wake up and worry, “Will I get a travel visa if I wanted to travel to Europe or somewhere else?” Or, “Are goods all of the sudden more expensive?” Because there are many trade privileges that Israel enjoys. Israel has had the best of both worlds to continue with the annexation and all the while mouthing the words of a peace process and “let’s negotiate.” All the while extending the occupation because of the enormous number of settlements and settlers now in the occupied territory.

No Occupying Power engaged in creating civilian settlements, particularly at the pace that Israel has, can be serious about wanting to end its occupation and realizing the self-determination of the occupied population.

Jacobsen: How does the lack of accountability internationally degrade international institutions like the United Nations when particular principles are proposed and then not acted upon? This is to both of you.

Shakir: I think it is a universal pattern. When impunity reigns and states commit serious violations of international law without consequence, it is not only a green light for them to double down on the policies, but also signals to other actors that the principles that undergird the international system are selective and apply differently based on how much power you wield. The experience in Israel and Palestine, as well as the more universal phenomena, show that this really poses a fundamental challenge to international institutions, including U.N. bodies and international courts. A litmus test for any international institution is how principled they are and whether they are able to apply the same standards universally to all actors (Jacobsen, 2019). For example, the High Commissioner of Human Rights earlier this year took a strong step in releasing the database given the mandate to her through the Human Rights Council.[29],[30],[31] Similarly, I think the prosecutor of the International Criminal Court took an important step in concluding her examination into the situation in Palestine with a recommendation for a formal investigation to be opened. I think it is incumbent upon states and others that are concerned about the credibility of international law and institutions to ensure these a sorts of measures, of the variety that were foreseen by some of the foundational treaties when it comes to failure to comply with international norms, are adhered to. Otherwise, they are not worth the paper that they are written on.

Lynk: What I think is very damaging is the concept of legal exceptionalism, when the whole body of laws that we have created for the modern world after 1945 are ignored, our modern rules-based international order was meant to create a dense network of rights and responsibilities that international states had towards one another as one of the surest guarantees to prevent the repetition of annexing land, creating wars, and producing great human suffering.[32]

The world has not been perfect in the aftermath of 1945. However, we have had a much greater, longer run of political and economic stability thanks to this strong network of rules and responsibilities that the international community has signed onto. If a country that belongs to the rules-based order says, “These particular rules do not apply to me. The Fourth Geneva Convention does not apply to the occupied territories,” then this is cherry-picking international law; and, international law is not a menu a la carte. We have to listen to the 2004 Advisory Opinion of the International Court of Justice[33], and what the Security Council[34] has said in numerous resolutions with respect to our occupation.

What we are winding up doing – particularly in the eyes of those who pay close attention to the Israeli and Palestinian conflict – are two parallel ways in which state defiance is dealt with, when other would-be renegades of international law see that state exceptionalism is being tolerated for Israel, they will want to see if they can have the same incentives and the same legal exceptionalism applies to them as well. There are very few things that are as uncontroversial in international law as the legal fact that Israeli rule over the Palestinians is occupation and, therefore, the Fourth Geneva Convention applies. Accordingly, based on Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention, the Israeli settlements created in the occupied territory are profoundly illegal under international law.

Indeed, the Israel settlements are a presumptive war crime under the 1998 Statute of Rome (Amnesty International, 2019c; International Criminal Court, 1998).Also, annexation is illegal under international law. The vast majority – I’d say over 99% – of international lawyers, international legal scholars, and for the diplomatic ministries of almost all states around the world accept that. But the difficulty, the refusal, has been the unwillingness to hold Israel accountable to all the standard norms that apply to an occupation.

We see this in the backsliding on international legal norms applying to an occupation on the part of the United States. In early November 2019, Secretary of State, Mike Pompeo, stated that the US State Department came to the conclusion that the Israeli settlements were not illegal under international law (Lee, 2019).[35] He said, ‘We have done a 40-page study.’ To the best of my knowledge, this study has not been released publicly. I certainly think it would be a document that international lawyers and scholars would have a field day in picking apart its findings and reasoning, which may be why it is not publicly released. He made the point that in other cases, ‘Settlements in occupied territory may be illegal or the annexation of occupied territory may be illegal, but not in this case involving Israel.’ You can see how the growth of international law exceptionalism[36] becomes a malignant stain on the whole body of a rules-based international order when clear rules can be undermined by powerful parties saying that they no longer apply to them.

Jacobsen: Some of the premises floating around are the non-transparency with Mike Pompeo in the 40-page report. Another is in the language used around some of the titles of things. So, Judea and Samaria rather than Area C (Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 2015; BBC News, 2009). It is both the non-transparency and the part of actors for states and then the labelling things only among one’s own party and national group, where there is a well-established set of titles and terms with specific meanings based on a consensus internationally. That’s another important issue to touch upon for this too. For Human Rights Watch, what has their take been on some of this labelling unique to Israel and some allies compared to the generally accepted international community consensus?

Shakir: I think the shifts and changes in terminology are a reflection of underlying policies on place on the ground. One example to take is Israel has a formal separation policy between the West Bank and the Gaza Strip aimed at ensuring minimal travel between the two areas (Human Rights Watch, 2019a). It has resulted in significant changes. Part of it is an effort to break apart the idea of what is a single territorial entity under international law, to make Gaza its own stand-alone entity, not part of the larger equation in dealing with Israel-Palestine. Even the term “Gazans,”[37] often not with malintent, is part of the practice, it is reducing the people who live there to being tied to their specific geographic areas as opposed to having an identity common with those in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. Similar with terminology when it comes to the West Bank, part of Israel’s strategy to maintain settlements in the West Bank in perpetuity is to convey the idea of this area as the core part of their idea of Israel (Human Rights Watch, 2017). The change in the terminology is part of advancing that strategy. You see this in Jerusalem with the Temple Mount[38] as a reference to Al-Aqsa Mosque compound[39], which is, again, underlying a certain narrative.[40] A valid historical one, but it is only a part of the entire story there (Hammer, 2011). I think terminology is, of course, always contested everywhere, but, certainly, is used by the Israeli government as a way to muddy-up what are relatively straightforward notions of Palestine being a single territorial entity in terms of its connections between different areas and its historical roots (United Nations, 2012a; United Nations, 2012b).

Lynk: One of my most favourite passages on political terminology comes from George Orwell who wrote in the late 1940s on the necessity of those in power of finding euphemisms and bland words that will diminish the scar or the tragedy unfolding before our eyes.[41] When you look to uncover modern terminology being used by Israel with respect to the occupation, they don’t use the word occupation; they will use the word “administered territories” or “disputed territories” (BBC News, 2009; Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs, 2015b). Settlements are no longer “settlements” in the phraseology at the Fourth Geneva Convention. They are Jewish neighbourhoods on biblical land. It is not the West Bank. It is Judea and Samaria. It is not an apartheid wall built largely in the West Bank. It is a fence. All of these choices of terminology are meant to diminish the horror of the scale of human rights abuses that are going through an occupation, where one national group is clearly dominant over another.

Where it has annexationist tendencies, and where there is no link between what they are doing and what international law requires them to wind up obeying, so, the use of this selective terminology in everyday political discourse and, certainly, in the arguments that they make legally to international diplomatic capitals or to courts such as the International Court of Justice or the International Criminal Court. It is all meant as a way to mask, to minimize, or to disguise the horror that we as civilians in democratic societies in the 21st century would normally want to feel if the true reality of what is unfolding in the occupied territories was said in immediate, urgent, and truthful adjectives and verbs.

Jacobsen: Another sociological variable, often, on the periphery of the commentaries, though central to the lives of many is religious identity and ethnic heritage. On the issue of religious identity, something that we note in Michael and I’s own country, Canada, is anti-Muslim sentiment or Islamophobia.[42],[43] On the ethnic heritage front, there is simply anti-Arab sentiment in addition to anti-Semitic sentiment as well. How do these points of contact play into the media portrayals from the occupied Palestinian territories and from Israel when there are certain flare-ups in the overall conflict?

Shakir: Look, I think there is a tendency when looking at conflicts around the world to reduce it to intrinsic ethnic, religious, or other sorts of intrinsic differences, and less of a desire to see conflicts for what they often are at core: access to land, resources, and rights, often, between different groups of people with various political leaders who often use difference to bolster their standing. I think the reality in Israel and Palestine is one such conflict. This is not some thousand-years-old ethnic and religious conflict, but one about land, resources, and rights, primarily. The other elements are certainly not irrelevant. Some policy positions can be informed by views that are bigoted or racist. We’ve certainly heard in the last rounds of Israeli elections statements by political parties that were bigoted. We have seen some anti-Semitic statements by Palestinian officials (Schrader, 2020; Nirenstein, 2020; Algemeiner Staff, 2020). But that is not what the heart of the conflict is about. There’s a significant underlying issue of discrimination and very severe discrimination and repression on account of identity, but, at the core, it is less about how the groups view one another and more about securing rights and privileges to land and resources by one group over another. While it manifests in one group having more of those things than another group, it is less about the tensions or animosities between members of those groups and more about struggles over rights, land, and resources.

Lynk: I would echo what Omar has said. For many people in the world, it reflects some of the reporting coming from the region. It has the appearance of being a religious or an ethnic conflict, or simply a neighbourhood squabble between irreconcilable people living next to one another. Often, the conflict is being presented as being intractable. In some of the reporting, it is seen as a tragedy of two people having equal rights to the land. In my view, I think this is what Omar was saying as well. Ultimately, this is a struggle over land and over justice. The ethnic veneer and the religious veneer explains some of the conflict, but the best explanation of the conflict goes to your understanding of the lack of rights and the lack of justice by one side caused by one side subjugating the other.

Yet, I am heartened when I am asked, “Is there any hope for the future?” I am heartened by the civil society efforts: Israeli civil society actors, Palestinian civil society, regional civil society, and international civil society. They want the same rights. They rely on the same international documents to proclaim the importance of human rights as a measuring stick to determine what is going on with that. I think Israeli and Palestinian civil society organizations are one of the important bridges to the future to building two societies living side-by-side, where there will be prosperity, reconciliation, equality; that they can wind up living productively with each other. It is the best hope and, in many ways, the only hope for the conflict being resolved. As Omar said earlier on, there is an equal number of Palestinian Arabs and Israeli Jews living between the Mediterranean Sea and the Jordan River. They are going to have to find some way to live in equality, whether two states or one state as a confederation. I do not purport to have a blueprint for that. It will have to be anchored on human rights law and democratic institutions to enable them to live side-by-side or an end to this conflict to occur. Any forms of a future depending on subjugation or domination with one group over another will sooner or later fall apart simply because people will not live under subjugation or domination for long periods of time.

Jacobsen: Any closing statements – either of you?

Lynk: Only this, I don’t think Omar would be doing this work – I don’t think I would be doing his work – without feeling some ingrained optimism amid all the struggles that we wind up seeing in front of us for this particular conflict. What gets us up every morning is our belief that international law and international morality can play, should play, and, ultimately, will play a decisive role in bringing justice and peace and prosperity to the 14 million Palestinians and Israeli Jews who live in the area. Through that lens, we can see a meaningful path to get to the future. Otherwise, I think that we would slit our wrists a long time ago. Let me speak for myself, although, I think Omar may agree with this as well; it is only going to happen through actively bending the arc of history towards justice; which means a meaningful peace and finding a modus operandi where the two people can live in harmony and equality via the decisive action from the international community. All by itself, this 53-year-old occupation will not die by old age. Israel can probably sustain the status quo long into the future. Only though the international community becoming motivated by international civil society to take decisive steps that would wind up bringing this subordination and domination to an end. Until that happens, we will see more of the same and more of these bitter human rights violations occurring, which are a credit to no people and, certainly, not to the Israeli leadership and, in its own way, the Palestinian leadership either.

Jacobsen: Omar, Michael, thank you for your time.

Shakir: Thanks so much, Scott.

Lynk: Thank you, Scott.

Previous Sessions (Chronological Order)

Interview with Omar Shakir – Israel and Palestine Director, Human Rights Watch (Middle East and North Africa Division)

HRW Israel and Palestine (MENA) Director on Systematic Methodology and Universal Vision

Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine) on Common Rights and Law Violations

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 1 – Recent Events

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 2 – Demolitions

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 3 – November-December: Deportation from Tel Aviv, Israel for Human Rights Watch Israel and Palestine Director

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 4 – Uninhabitable: The Viability of Gaza Strip’s 2020 Unlivability

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 5 – The Trump Peace Plan: Is This the “The Deal of the Century,” or Not?

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 6 – Tripartite Partition: The Israeli Elections, the International Criminal Court (ICC), and SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 7 – New Heights to the Plight and the Fight: Covid-19, Hegemony, Restrictions, and Rights

Addenda

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) Addendum: Some History and Contextualization of Rights

Other Resources Internal to Canadian Atheist

Interview with Dr. Norman Finkelstein on Gaza Now

Extensive Interview with Gideon Levy

Interview with Musa Abu Hashash – Field Researcher (Hebron District), B’Tselem

Interview with Gideon Levy – Columnist, Haaretz

Interview with Dr. Usama Antar – Independent Political Analyst (Gaza Strip, Palestine)

Interview with Wesam Ahmad – Representative, Al-Haq (Independent Palestinian Human Rights Organization)

Extensive Interview with Professor Richard Falk – Fmr. (5th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with Professor John Dugard – Fmr. (4th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with S. Michael Lynk – (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Conversation with John Dugard, Richard Falk, and S. Michael Lynk on the Role of the Special Rapporteur, and the International Criminal Court & Jurisdiction

To resolve the Palestinian question we need to end colonialism

Trump’s Colonial Solution to the Question of Palestine Threatens the Foundations of International Law

Dr. Norman Finkelstein on the International Criminal Court

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Zion, I.B. (2020, May 13). Despite virus, Pompeo talks West Bank annexation in Israel. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/48a4df69f8735ef54fdf356cd004ce1f.

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Footnotes

[1] “Dr. Norman Finkelstein on the International Criminal Court” (2020) in which Finkelstein stated:

On the UN question, Palestine is officially defined as a non-member observer state. That’s its status. So, it is not a member of the General Assembly, but it is classified as a state: non-member observer state. I think the only other entity that has that definition is the Vatican. The Vatican also has non-member observer state status. Whether or not Palestine is a state, the essence comes down to the following: technical, under what is called the Montevideo criteria, a state has four characteristics. It has a territory. It has a population. It has an effective government. And it has the capacity to engage in foreign relations to sign treaties and things like that. Those are the four technical criteria of a state. The issue that has been the most contentious between the two sides is the effective government.

See Jacobsen (2020b).

[2] “Legal English: “De Facto/De Jure”” (2012) states:

Today’s phrases, “de facto” and “de jure,” (Pronunciation: dee fak-toh/di joo r-ee: Origin: Latin) are closely related concepts. De facto means a state of affairs that is true in fact, but that is not officially sanctioned. In contrast, de jure means a state of affairs that is in accordance with law (i.e. that is officially sanctioned). Most commonly, these phrases are used to describe the source of a business or governmental leader’s authority, but they apply to a wide variety of situations. Here are some example sentences that use the phrases:

“Our country is going through some very difficult times. We have an elected prime minister, but he has no actual power. Instead, the general who sits at the head of the military is the de facto ruler of the nation.”
“I know that, de jure, this is supposed to be a parking lot, but now that the flood has left four feet of water here, it’s a de facto swimming pool.”
“We understand that these are the de facto bounds of your manufacturing facility, but what do the official land records and surveys show? Is that mountain of scrap rubber over there encroaching on anyone else’s property?”
“The rest of the world considers your company to be a U.S. corporation, but where is your de jure jurisdiction of incorporation? If it’s somewhere offshore, we might have a P.R. issue on our hands.”

As you can see, de facto refers to situations that are true for practical reasons, whereas de jure refers to formal, official status of the matter.

See Washington United in St. Louis: School of Law (2012).

[3] “Chapter 3: Israeli Settlements and International Law” (2019b) states:

Israel’s policy of settling its civilians in occupied Palestinian territory and displacing the local population contravenes fundamental rules of international humanitarian law.

Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention states: “The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.” It also prohibits the “individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory”.

The extensive appropriation of land and the appropriation and destruction of property required to build and expand settlements also breach other rules of international humanitarian law. Under the Hague Regulations of 1907, the public property of the occupied population (such as lands, forests and agricultural estates) is subject to the laws of usufruct. This means that an occupying state is only allowed a very limited use of this property. This limitation is derived from the notion that occupation is temporary, the core idea of the law of occupation. In the words of the International Committee of the Red Cross, the occupying power “has a duty to ensure the protection, security, and welfare of the people living under occupation and to guarantee that they can live as normal a life as possible, in accordance with their own laws, culture, and traditions.”

The Hague Regulations prohibit the confiscation of private property. The Fourth Geneva Convention prohibits the destruction of private or state property, “except where such destruction is rendered absolutely necessary by military operations”.

As the occupier, Israel is therefore forbidden from using state land and natural resources for purposes other than military or security needs or for the benefit of the local population. The unlawful appropriation of property by an occupying power amounts to “pillage”, which is prohibited by both the Hague Regulations and Fourth Geneva Convention and is a war crime under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court and many national laws.

Israel’s building of settlements in the West Bank, including in East Jerusalem, does not respect any of these rules and exceptions. [Emphasis added.]

See Amnesty International (2019b).

[4] “The Status of Palestine” (1997) states:

The 1967 war, which resulted in the occupation by Israel of East Jerusalem and the Palestinian territories, ended the armistice demarcation line between the eastern and western sectors but reopened with new vehemence the debate over the two competing claims. Israel, which annexed East Jerusalem in 1980, considers that “Jerusalem, whole and united, is the capital of Israel”, and wants the City to “remain forever under Israel’s sovereignty.” Its de facto control on the ground has enabled it to invest vast resources and efforts into changing the physical and demographic characteristics of the City. The Israeli claim to Jerusalem, however, has not been recognized by the international community which rejects the acquisition of territory by war and considers any changes on the ground illegal and invalid. On the other hand, the Palestinians have claimed East Jerusalem as the capital of a future independent State of Palestine to be established in the territories occupied since 1967. [Emphasis added.]

See UNISPAL (1997).

[5] Lynk, here, references the overwhelming consensus of the international community of the status of illegality of the Israeli settlements, of Israeli occupation, of Israel defined as an Occupying Power, and annexation in the West Bank and East Jerusalem as illegal under international law. Thusly, the international community does not recognize the 1980 and 1981 annexations by Israel.

[6] U.N. Resolution 478 came with 14 votes in favour, none against, and 1 abstention (The United States of America), and states, in full:

The Security Council,

Recalling its resolution 476 (1980),

Reaffirming again that the acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible,

Deeply concerned over the enactment of a “basic law” in the Israeli Knesset proclaiming a change in the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, with its implications for peace and security,

Noting that Israel has not complied with resolution 476 (1980),

Reaffirming its determination to examine practical ways and means, in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Charter of the United Nations, to secure the full implementation of its resolution 476 (1980), in the event of non-compliance by Israel,

1. Censures in the strongest terms the enactment by Israel of the “basic law” on Jerusalem and the refusal to comply with relevant Security Council resolutions;

2. Affirms that the enactment of the “basic law” by Israel constitutes a violation of international law and does not affect the continued application of the Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War, of 12 August 1949, in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since June 1967, including Jerusalem;

3. Determines that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which have altered or purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, and in particular the recent “basic law” on Jerusalem, are null and void and must be rescinded forthwith;

4. Affirms also that this action constitutes a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;

5. Decides not to recognize the “basic law” and such other actions by Israel that, as a result of this law, seek to alter the character and status of Jerusalem and calls upon:

(a) All Member States to accept this decision;

(b) Those States that have established diplomatic missions at Jerusalem to withdraw such missions from the Holy City;

6. Requests the Secretary-General to report to the Security Council on the implementation of the present resolution before 15 November 1980;

7. Decides to remain seized of this serious situation.

See United Nations (1980a).

[7] United Nations Resolution 476, in full, states:

The Security Council,

Having considered the letter of 28 May 1980 from the representative of Pakistan, the current Chairman of the Organization of the Islamic Conference, as contained in document S/13966 of 28 May 1980,

Reaffirming that acquisition of territory by force is inadmissible,

Bearing in mind the specific status of Jerusalem and, in particular, the need for protection and preservation of the unique spiritual and religious dimension of the Holy Places in the city,

Reaffirming its resolutions relevant to the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem, in particular resolutions 252 (1968) of 21 May 1968, 267 (1969) of 3 July 1969, 271 (1969) of 15 September 1969, 298 (1971) of 25 September 1971 and 465 (1980) of 1 March 1980,

Recalling the Fourth Geneva Convention of 12 August 1949 relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War,

Deploring the persistence of Israel, in changing the physical character, demographic composition, institutional structure and the status of the Holy City of Jerusalem,

Gravely concerned over the legislative steps initiated in the Israeli Knesset with the aim of changing the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem,

1. Reaffirms the overriding necessity to end the prolonged occupation of Arab territories occupied by Israel since 1967, including Jerusalem;

2. Strongly deplores the continued refusal of Israel, the occupying Power, to comply with the relevant resolutions of the Security Council and the General Assembly;

3. Reconfirms that all legislative and administrative measures and actions taken by Israel, the occupying Power, which purport to alter the character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem have no legal validity and constitute a flagrant violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War and also constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East;

4. Reiterates that all such measures which have altered the geographic, demographic and historical character and status of the Holy City of Jerusalem are null and void and must be rescinded in compliance with the relevant resolutions of the Security Council;

5. Urgently calls on Israel, the occupying Power, to abide by this and previous Security Council resolutions and to desist forthwith from persisting in the policy and measures affecting the character and status of the Holy city of Jerusalem;

6.Reaffirmsits determination in the event of non-compliance by Israel with this resolution, to examine practical ways and means in accordance with relevant provisions of the Charter of the United Nations to secure the full implementation of this resolution.

See United Nations (1980b).

[8] Lynk argued for this before. “Special Rapporteur on Situation of Human Rights in the oPt Presents Report to Third Committee – Press Release (GA/SHC/4273) (Excerpts)” (2019) states:

One of five mandate holders to present their findings, Michael Lynk, Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967, focused on the deepening humanitarian crisis in Gaza. “This would properly be labelled a tragedy if I was reporting to you about a natural catastrophe and the ensuing scale of human suffering,” he said. However, this is a human‑made disaster. Israel’s now 12‑year blockade of Gaza is expressly prohibited under the Fourth Geneva Convention.

The will of the international community does not seem strong enough to compel Israel into compliance, he said. “No country is as dependent on the support of the international community as Israel, yet Israel allows itself to defy the world as few dare.” To ensure accountability, he advocated a complete ban on exports from illegal Israeli settlements, coupled with flight bans, refusing arms transfers and using universal jurisdiction to bring violators of international law to justice…

… Yet, Israel has demonstrated no accountability to address these actions, despite calls by the international community, by the 2019 Commission of Inquiry and by civil society. Describing the 53‑year‑old occupation as the longest belligerent occupation in the modern world, he said the international community has demonstrated “great unwillingness” to impose any meaningful accountability on Israel for its permanent occupation and its serious violations of international law.

He said Israel has rightly assessed that the international community — particularly Western industrial nations — lacks the political will to compel an end to its impunity.

See UNISPAL (2019).

[9] In reference to “Europe and other powerful players in North America and other places in the Western world,” this contains a historical context important for comprehension here. The United Nations formed after the collapsed efforts of the League of Nations. With this, at the foundation of the United Nations on October 24, 1945, the Israeli-Palestinian issue set forth, which came in the wake of the Second World War, as primarily a war with involvement of the Western world and the Europeans. In fact, the issue runs back farther. See UNISPAL (n.d.).

[10] “Crimea profile” (2018) states:

In early 2014 Crimea became the focus of the worst East-West crisis since the Cold War, after Ukraine’s pro-Moscow president Viktor Yanukovych was driven from power by violent protests in Kiev.

Kremlin-backed forces seized control of the Crimean peninsula, and the territory, which has a Russian-speaking majority, voted to join Russia in a referendum that Ukraine and the West deem illegal.

See BBC News (2018).

[11] See Stone, R.S., Elath, E., Ochsenwald, W.L., & Sicherman, H. (2020).

[12] “67/19. Status of Palestine in the United Nations” states:

Reaffirming its resolution 3236 (XXIX) of 22 November 1974 and all relevant resolutions, including resolution 66/146 of 19 December 2011, reaffirming the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination, including the right to their independent State of Palestine…

…Reaffirming also its resolutions 43/176 of 15 December 1988 and 66/17 of 30 November 2011 and all relevant resolutions regarding the peaceful settlement of the question of Palestine, which, inter alia, stress the need for the withdrawal of Israel from the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, the realization of the inalienable rights of the Palestinian people, primarily the right to self-determination and the right to their independent State…

…emphasizing the need for a way to be found through negotiations to resolve the status of Jerusalem as the capital of two States…

…Recalling also its resolution 43/177 of 15 December 1988, by which it, inter alia, acknowledged the proclamation of the State of Palestine by the Palestine National Council on 15 November 1988 and decided that the designation “Palestine” should be used in place of the designation “Palestine Liberation Organization” in the United Nations system, without prejudice to the observer status and functions of the Palestine Liberation Organization within the United Nations system,

Taking into consideration that the Executive Committee of the Palestine Liberation Organization, in accordance with a decision by the Palestine National Council, is entrusted with the powers and responsibilities of the Provisional Government of the State of Palestine…

…Reaffirming its commitment, in accordance with international law, to the two-State solution of an independent, sovereign, democratic, viable and contiguous State of Palestine living side by side with Israel in peace and security on the basis of the pre-1967 borders,

Bearing in mind the mutual recognition of 9 September 1993 between the Government of the State of Israel and the Palestine Liberation Organization, the representative of the Palestinian people,

Affirming the right of all States in the region to live in peace within secure and internationally recognized borders,

Commending the Palestinian National Authority’s 2009 plan for constructing the institutions of an independent Palestinian State…

…Recognizing also that, to date, 132 States Members of the United Nations have accorded recognition to the State of Palestine…

…1. Reaffirms the right of the Palestinian people to self-determination and to independence in their State of Palestine on the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967;

2. Decides to accord to Palestine non-member observer State status in the United Nations, without prejudice to the acquired rights, privileges and role of the Palestine Liberation Organization in the United Nations as the representative of the Palestinian people, in accordance with the relevant resolutions and practice;

3. Expresses the hope that the Security Council will consider favourably the application submitted on 23 September 2011 by the State of Palestine for admission to full membership in the United Nations… [Emphasis added.]

See United Nations (2012).

[13] “Unable to vote, Palestinians shrug off Israel’s elections” (2019), in part, states:

MAS’HA, West Bank (AP) — Barhoum Saleh’s town is surrounded by Jewish settlements, the sign above his roadside mechanic shop is in Hebrew, most of his customers are Israeli and he needs an Israeli permit to visit the beach a half hour’s drive away.

But unlike his Jewish neighbors, he can’t vote in next week’s elections.

Saleh is among the 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank who have no voice in choosing Israel’s next government and no control over whether it decides to annex part or all of the occupied territory, as Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu has vowed to do . With the peace process having sputtered to a halt a decade ago, they also have little hope of getting a state of their own anytime soon. [Emphasis added.]

See Krauss & Daraghmeh (2019).

[14] One of the, or the, fundamental violation of international law comes in the form of Article 49 of the Fourth Geneva Convention. The Fourth Geneva Convention deals specifically with the protection of civilians in war zones as a humanitarian matter. You can observe some of the common phraseology defined within the context of the occupation in the Fourth Geneva Convention, which gets used throughout the discourse, e.g., “Occupying Power,” where the means “Israel” in the context of Israeli annexation and settlements. Article 49 states:

Individual or mass forcible transfers, as well as deportations of protected persons from occupied territory to the territory of the Occupying Power or to that of any other country, occupied or not, are prohibited, regardless of their motive.

Nevertheless, the Occupying Power may undertake total or partial evacuation of a given area if the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand. Such evacuations may not involve the displacement of protected persons outside the bounds of the occupied territory except when for material reasons it is impossible to avoid such displacement. Persons thus evacuated shall be transferred back to their homes as soon as hostilities in the area in question have ceased.

The Occupying Power undertaking such transfers or evacuations shall ensure, to the greatest practicable extent, that proper accommodation is provided to receive the protected persons, that the removals are effected in satisfactory conditions of hygiene, health, safety and nutrition, and that members of the same family are not separated.

The Protecting Power shall be informed of any transfers and evacuations as soon as they have taken place.

The Occupying Power shall not detain protected persons in an area particularly exposed to the dangers of war unless the security of the population or imperative military reasons so demand.

The Occupying Power shall not deport or transfer parts of its own civilian population into the territory it occupies.

See International Committee of the Red Cross (1949).

[15] See United Nations Security Council (2016).

[16] “Resolution 2334” states:

… Condemning all measures aimed at altering the demographic composition, character and status of the Palestinian Territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, including, inter alia, the construction and expansion of settlements, transfer of Israeli settlers, confiscation of land, demolition of homes and displacement of Palestinian civilians, in violation of international humanitarian law and relevant resolutions…

…Reaffirms that the establishment by Israel of settlements in the Palestinian territory occupied since 1967, including East Jerusalem, has no legal validity and constitutes a flagrant violation under international law and a major obstacle to the achievement of the two-State solution and a just, lasting and comprehensive peace…

See United Nations Security Council (2016).

[17] “Resolution 465” states:

…Taking note of the reports of the Commission of the Security Council established under resolution 446 (1979) to examine the situation relating to settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, contained in documents S/13450 and Corr. 1 and S/13679…

…Deploring the decision of the Government of Israel to officially support Israeli settlement in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967,

Deeply concerned over the practices of the Israeli authorities in implementing that settlement policy in the occupied Arab territories, including Jerusalem, and its consequences for the local Arab and Palestinian population…

…Drawing attention to the grave consequences which the settlement policy is bound to have on any attempt to reach a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East…

… 6. Strongly deplores the continuation and persistence of Israel in pursuing those policies and practices and calls upon the Government and people of Israel to rescind those measures, to dismantle the existing settlements and in particular to cease, on an urgent basis, the establishment, construction and planning of settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem;

7. Calls upon all States not to provide Israel with any assistance to be used specifically in connexion with settlements in the occupied territories;

8. Requests the Commission to continue to examine the situation relating to settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem, to investigate the reported serious depletion of natural resources, particularly the water resources, with a view to ensuring the protection of those important natural resources of the territories under occupation, and to keep under close scrutiny the implementation of the present resolution…

See United Nations Security Council (1980).

[18] “Resolution 446” states:

…Determines that the policy and practices of Israel in establishing settlements in the Palestinian and other Arab territories occupied since 1967 have no legal validity and constitute a serious obstruction to achieving a comprehensive, just and lasting peace in the Middle East…

…Establishes a Commission consisting of three members of the Security Council, to be appointed by the President of the Council after consultations with the members of the Council, to examine the situation relating to settlements in the Arab territories occupied since 1967, including Jerusalem…

See United Nations Security Council (1979).

[19] See International Middle East Media Center (2019).

[20] See Al-Haq (2015).

[21] “Gaza Strip: Blockade” (2020) states:

In autumn 2007 Israel declared the Gaza Strip under Hamas a hostile entity and approved a series of sanctions that included power cuts, heavily restricted imports, and border closures. In January 2008, facing sustained rocket assaults into its southern settlements, Israel broadened its sanctions, completely sealing its border with the Gaza Strip and temporarily preventing fuel imports. Later that month, after nearly a week of the intensified Israeli blockade, Hamas’s forces demolished portions of the barrier along the Gaza Strip–Egypt border (closed from Hamas’s mid-2007 takeover until 2011), opening gaps through which, according to some estimates, hundreds of thousands of Gazans passed into Egypt to purchase food, fuel, and goods unavailable under the blockade. Egyptian Pres. Hosni Mubarak temporarily permitted the breach to alleviate civilian hardship in Gaza before efforts could begin to restore the border.

In the years after the Israeli blockade on Gaza was instated, an organization known as the Free Gaza Movement made a number of maritime efforts to breach it. The first such mission—which consisted of a pair of vessels bearing medical supplies and some 45 activists—was permitted to reach Gaza in August 2008, and four missions in subsequent months were also successful. In May 2010 a flotilla bound for Gaza was the scene of a clash between activists and Israeli commandos in which 9 of the more than 600 activists involved were killed.

Under Mubarak, Egypt’s cooperation in enforcing the blockade was deeply unpopular with the Egyptian public. In May 2011, four months after a popular uprising in Egypt forced Mubarak to step down as president, Egypt’s interim government announced that it would permanently reopen the Rafah border crossing, allowing Palestinians to pass between Egypt and Gaza. About 1,200 people were allowed to cross the border daily, though it remained closed for trade. However, in the turmoil following the ouster of Egyptian Pres. Mohamed Morsi in the summer of 2013, traffic through the border crossing was reduced to 50 people per day because of security concerns and was later closed altogether.

After the PA took control of the Rafah border crossing in late 2017, Egypt began allowing 200 people per day to cross the border in May 2018. The border was closed briefly after the PA quit the Gaza Strip in January 2019, but it was reopened weeks later by Hamas. During this rare and prolonged easing of the border, tens of thousands of Gazans were reported to have permanently emigrated from the Gaza Strip.

After months of violence between Israel and Hamas in mid-2018, Israel began to ease restrictions on its blockade as a part of an effort to incentivize a more long-term cease-fire agreement between the two. In 2019 Israel allowed the flow of additional goods into and out of the territory, expanded the permitted fishing zone for Gazans to its largest extent in more than a decade, and began allowing thousands of Gazans to cross the border to work in Israel.

See The Editors of Encyclopaedia Britannica (2020).

[22] See Federman (2019).

[23] See UNISPAL (2006).

[24] “Situation of human rights in the Palestinian territories occupied since 1967” (2019) states:

…The key issues raised during the mission included the continued shrinking of civic space, the pervasive lack of accountability, especially in relation to the investigation and prosecution of hostilities in Gaza in 2014, home demolitions in the West Bank, in particular in East Jerusalem, the ongoing use of administrative detention and the detention of children, and the impact of various practices on the environment…

…Israel has demonstrated virtually no accountability for these actions despite calls by the international community and civil society for independent and transparent investigations into the incidents…

…Far too often, accountability has been applied by the international community in a selective and partisan fashion to many serious issues, reflecting a dispiriting mixture of design and indifference, collusion and apathy. On too many occasions, defiance has been ignored and outliers have been excused or appeased. This deficit of accountability erodes popular trust in the efficacy of international law, thereby jeopardizing a precious common good…

…The 52-year Israeli occupation of the Palestinian territory – Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem – is a bitter illustration of the absence of international accountability in the face of the systemic violations of Palestinian rights under human rights and humanitarian law. Accountability is the key to opening the titanium cage that is the permanent occupation, and its principled application is the best path to a just and durable settlement…

…The Court then elaborated upon the duty of accountability of the international community when a competent organ of the United Nations had issued a binding decision on the illegality of a situation…

…In a variety of forums, the United Nations has frequently called upon the international community to ensure accountability and to end impunity with respect to the Israeli occupation…

…In four major independent reports commissioned by the Human Rights Council since 2009, the constant theme has been the serious violations of human rights and humanitarian laws by Israel, the necessity to ensure Israeli accountability and the prevailing culture of exceptionalism…

…The General Assembly and the Human Rights Council have both accentuated the necessity for accountability by Israel, the occupying Power, in recent years…

…Impunity and the lack of accountability by Israel in its conduct of the occupation have also been addressed by the Secretary-General…

…The lack of accountability has also been a central concern of the United Nations High Commissioner for Human Rights…

…Of the 178 recommendations issued regarding accountability and access to justice, Israel had implemented 2, had partially implemented 8 and had not implemented 168 (90 per cent)…

…Much more can be said about the range of appropriate countermeasures that the international community has at its disposal to ensure accountability and an end to impunity regarding the Israeli occupation…

…It would realize that bold measures and the determination to enforce accountability in these circumstances would greatly improve the chances that the next obstinate occupier would not likely want to test its resolve…

See United Nations General Assembly (2019).

[25] See BBC News (2016).

[26] See Gragg & Volochine (2019).

[27] A single negative vote from one of the permanent members – China, France, Russia, the United Kingdom and the United States – of the Security Council would block a draft resolution. “Charter of the United Nations – Chapter V: The Security Council” states:

Each member of the Security Council shall have one vote.
Decisions of the Security Council on procedural matters shall be made by an affirmative vote of nine members.
Decisions of the Security Council on all other matters shall be made by an affirmative vote of nine members including the concurring votes of the permanent members; provided that, in decisions under Chapter VI, and under paragraph 3 of Article 52, a party to a dispute shall abstain from voting.

See United Nations (1945).

[28] Approximately 9,000,000 Israelis divided by about 145,000,000 Russians comes to about 6%.

[29] The illegal settlements database provided an insight into the contexts for a number of the illegal settlement-dealing businesses. This comes from another portion of the international effort for a transition from statements or reminders of rights and abuses of said rights, and more into the firm transition into the world of accountability tied to action, so as to make the statements of rights and abuses of said rights substantive rather than null and void. This became part of a previous session with Shakir, in which we stated:

Jacobsen: The U.N. also recently released a list of companies, 112 [Ed. Countries with companies on the listing (number of companies in parentheses per country): France (3), Israel (94), Luxembourg (1), Netherlands (4), Thailand (1), United Kingdom (3), United States of America (6) (U.N. Human Rights Council, 2020).], who are doing business on Israeli settlements in the West Bank (Nebehay, 2020; Federman, 2020; Federman & Keaten, 2020). What does this mean for this similar discourse of rights violations through the annexation of land? What are the particular types of rights violations in this reportage?

Shakir: The long-awaited release of the U.N. Database of Settlement Companies should really put companies on notice: to do business with illegal settlements is to aid in the commission of war crimes (U.N. Human Rights Council, 2020). Companies have hid for too long behind the idea of these issues as too controversial or complex as a way to excuse their direct contribution to rights abuses. The underlying reality is that settlements are not only a violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention and a war crime (Diplomatic Conference of Geneva, 1949; Amnesty International, 2019b). They also entail systematic abuses to the rights of Palestinians. Settlements are built on land confiscated, stolen, from Palestinians (Amnesty International, 2019b). In order to maintain the settlement enterprise, Israel has erected a two-tiered discriminatory system in the West Bank that treats Palestinians separately and unequally (Human Rights Watch, 2010). Companies that do business in settlements not only further entrench the illegal settlement enterprise, but they actually profit from the theft of Palestinian land and contribute to the further dispossession of Palestinians. I think the release of this database is an important step towards ensuring transparency around these activities, but also towards protecting human rights, not only of Palestinians, but setting a precedent that can be used in other contexts to improve the standards around business and human rights.

See Jacobsen (2020e).

[30] See Federman (2020c), Federman & Keaten (2020), and Nebehay (2020).

[31] You can find the complete 112 out of the 188 companies who formally met the requirements for inclusion as follows:

Business enterprises involved in listed activities
No.	Business Enterprise	Category of listed activity	State concerned
1	Afikim Public Transportation Ltd.	E	Israel
2	Airbnb Inc.	E	United States
3	American Israeli Gas Corporation Ltd.	E, G	Israel
4	Amir Marketing and Investments in Agriculture Ltd.	G	Israel
5	Amos Hadar Properties and Investments Ltd.	G	Israel
6	Angel Bakeries	E, G	Israel
7	Archivists Ltd.	G	Israel
8	Ariel Properties Group	E	Israel
9	Ashtrom Industries Ltd.	G	Israel
10	Ashtrom Properties Ltd.	G	Israel
11	Avgol Industries 1953 Ltd.	G	Israel
12	Bank Hapoalim B.M.	E, F	Israel
13	Bank Leumi Le-Israel B.M.	E, F	Israel
14	Bank of Jerusalem Ltd.	E, F	Israel
15	Beit Haarchiv Ltd.	G	Israel
16	Bezeq, the Israel Telecommunication Corp Ltd.	E, G	Israel
17	Booking.com B.V.	E	Netherlands
18	C Mer Industries Ltd.	B	Israel
19	Café Café Israel Ltd.	E, G	Israel
20	Caliber 3	D, G	Israel
21	Cellcom Israel Ltd.	E, G	Israel
22	Cherriessa Ltd.	G	Israel
23	Chish Nofei Israel Ltd.	G	Israel
24	Citadis Israel Ltd.	E, G	Israel
25	Comasco Ltd.	A	Israel
26	Darban Investments Ltd.	G	Israel
27	Delek Group Ltd.	E, G	Israel
28	Delta Israel	G	Israel
29	Dor Alon Energy in Israel 1988 Ltd.	E, G	Israel
30	Egis Rail	E	France
31	Egged, Israel Transportation Cooperative Society Ltd.	E	Israel
32	Energix Renewable Energies Ltd.	G	Israel
33	EPR Systems Ltd.	E, G	Israel
34	Extal Ltd.	G	Israel
35	Expedia Group Inc.	E	United States
36	Field Produce Ltd.	G	Israel
37	Field Produce Marketing Ltd.	G	Israel
38	First International Bank of Israel Ltd.	E, F	Israel
39	Galshan Shvakim Ltd.	E, D	Israel
40	General Mills Israel Ltd.	G	Israel
41	Hadiklaim Israel Date Growers Cooperative Ltd.	G	Israel
42	Hot Mobile Ltd.	E	Israel
43	Hot Telecommunications Systems Ltd.	E	Israel
44	Industrial Buildings Corporation Ltd.	G	Israel
45	Israel Discount Bank Ltd.	E, F	Israel
46	Israel Railways Corporation Ltd.	G, H	Israel
47	Italek Ltd.	E, G	Israel
48	JC Bamford Excavators Ltd.	A	United Kingdom
49	Jerusalem Economy Ltd.	G	Israel
50	Kavim Public Transportation Ltd.	E	Israel
51	Lipski Installation and Sanitation Ltd.	G	Israel
52	Matrix IT Ltd.	E, G	Israel
53	Mayer Davidov Garages Ltd.	E, G	Israel
54	Mekorot Water Company Ltd.	G	Israel
55	Mercantile Discount Bank Ltd.	E, F	Israel
56	Merkavim Transportation Technologies Ltd.	E	Israel
57	Mizrahi Tefahot Bank Ltd.	E, F	Israel
58	Modi’in Ezrachi Group Ltd.	E, D	Israel
59	Mordechai Aviv Taasiot Beniyah 1973 Ltd.	G	Israel
60	Motorola Solutions Israel Ltd.	B	Israel
61	Municipal Bank Ltd.	F	Israel
62	Naaman Group Ltd.	E, G	Israel
63	Nof Yam Security Ltd.	E, D	Israel
64	Ofertex Industries 1997 Ltd.	G	Israel
65	Opodo Ltd.	E	United Kingdom
66	Bank Otsar Ha-Hayal Ltd.	E, F	Israel
67	Partner Communications Company Ltd.	E, G	Israel
68	Paz Oil Company Ltd.	E, G	Israel
69	Pelegas Ltd.	G	Israel
70	Pelephone Communications Ltd.	E, G	Israel
71	Proffimat S.R. Ltd.	G	Israel
72	Rami Levy Chain Stores Hashikma Marketing 2006 Ltd.	E, G	Israel
73	Rami Levy Hashikma Marketing Communication Ltd.	E, G	Israel
74	Re/Max Israel	E	Israel
75	Shalgal Food Ltd.	G	Israel
76	Shapir Engineering and Industry Ltd.	E, G	Israel
77	Shufersal Ltd.	E, G	Israel
78	Sonol Israel Ltd.	E, G	Israel
79	Superbus Ltd.	E	Israel
80	Supergum Industries 1969 Ltd.	G	Israel
81	Tahal Group International B.V.	E	Netherlands
82	TripAdvisor Inc.	E	United States
83	Twitoplast Ltd.	G	Israel
84	Unikowsky Maoz Ltd.	G	Israel
85	YES	E	Israel
86	Zakai Agricultural Know-how and inputs Ltd.	G	Israel
87	ZF Development and Construction	G	Israel
88	ZMH Hammermand Ltd.	G	Israel
89	Zorganika Ltd.	G	Israel
90	Zriha Hlavin Industries Ltd.	G	Israel
Business enterprises involved as parent companies
No.	Business Enterprise	Category of listed activity	State concerned
91	Alon Blue Square Israel Ltd.	E, G	Israel
92	Alstom S.A.	E, G	France
93	Altice Europe N.V.	E	Netherlands
94	Amnon Mesilot Ltd.	E	Israel
95	Ashtrom Group Ltd.	G	Israel
96	Booking Holdings Inc.	E	United States
97	Brand Industries Ltd.	G	Israel
98	Delta Galil Industries Ltd.	G	Israel
99	eDreams ODIGEO S.A.	E	Luxembourg
100	Egis S.A.	E	France
101	Electra Ltd.	E	Israel
102	Export Investment Company Ltd.	E, F	Israel
103	General Mills Inc.	G	United States
104	Hadar Group	G	Israel
105	Hamat Group Ltd.	G	Israel
106	Indorama Ventures P.C.L.	G	Thailand
107	Kardan N.V.	E	Netherlands
108	Mayer’s Cars and Trucks Co. Ltd.	E	Israel
109	Motorola Solutions Inc.	B	United States
110	Natoon Group	E, D	Israel
111	Villar International Ltd.	G	Israel
Business enterprises involved as licensors or franchisors
No.	Business Enterprise	Category of listed activity	State concerned
112	Greenkote P.L.C.	G	United Kingdom

See U.N. Human Rights Council (2020).

[32] “International law: Jurisdiction” (2019) states:

Jurisdiction refers to the power of a state to affect persons, property, and circumstances within its territory. It may be exercised through legislative, executive, or judicial actions. International law particularly addresses questions of criminal law and essentially leaves civil jurisdiction to national control. According to the territorial principle, states have exclusive authority to deal with criminal issues arising within their territories; this principle has been modified to permit officials from one state to act within another state in certain circumstances (e.g., the Channel Tunnel arrangements between the United Kingdom and France and the 1994 peace treaty between Israel and Jordan). The nationality principle permits a country to exercise criminal jurisdiction over any of its nationals accused of criminal offenses in another state. Historically, this principle has been associated more closely with civil-law systems than with common-law ones, though its use in common-law systems increased in the late 20th century (e.g., the adoption in Britain of the War Crimes Act in 1991 and the Sex Offenders Act in 1997). Ships and aircraft have the nationality of the state whose flag they fly or in which they are registered and are subject to its jurisdiction.

The passive personality principle allows states, in limited cases, to claim jurisdiction to try a foreign national for offenses committed abroad that affect its own citizens. This principle has been used by the United States to prosecute terrorists and even to arrest (in 1989–90) the de facto leader of Panama, Manuel Noriega, who was subsequently convicted by an American court of cocaine trafficking, racketeering, and money laundering. The principle appears in a number of conventions, including the International Convention Against the Taking of Hostages (1979), the Convention on the Prevention and Punishment of Crimes Against Internationally Protected Persons (1973), and the Convention Against Torture and Other Cruel, Inhuman or Degrading Treatment or Punishment (1984). The protective principle, which is included in the hostages and aircraft-hijacking conventions and the Convention on the Safety of United Nations and Associated Personnel (1994), can be invoked by a state in cases where an alien has committed an act abroad deemed prejudicial to that state’s interests, as distinct from harming the interests of nationals (the passive personality principle). Finally, the universality principle allows for the assertion of jurisdiction in cases where the alleged crime may be prosecuted by all states (e.g., war crimes, crimes against the peace, crimes against humanity, slavery, and piracy).

See Shaw (2019).

[33] “International Court of Justice Advisory Opinion Finds Israel’s Construction of Wall ‘Contrary to International Law’” (2004) states:

The International Court of Justice (ICJ), principal judicial organ of the United Nations, has today rendered its Advisory Opinion in the case concerning the Legal Consequences of the Construction of a Wall in the Occupied Palestinian Territory (request for advisory opinion).

In its Opinion, the Court finds unanimously that it has jurisdiction to give the advisory opinion requested by the United Nations General Assembly and decides by 14 votes to 1 to comply with that request.

The Court responds to the question as follows:

“A. By 14 votes to 1,

The construction of the wall being built by Israel, the occupying Power, in the occupied Palestinian territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, and its associated regime, are contrary to international law”;

“B. By 14 votes to 1,

Israel is under an obligation to terminate its breaches of international law; it is under an obligation to cease forthwith the works of construction of the wall being built in the occupied Palestinian territory, including in and around East Jerusalem, to dismantle forthwith the structure therein situated, and to repeal or render ineffective forthwith all legislative and regulatory acts relating thereto, in accordance with paragraph 151 of this Opinion”;

“C. By 14 votes to 1,

Israel is under an obligation to make reparation for all damage caused by the construction of the wall in the occupied Palestinian territory, including in and around East Jerusalem”;

“D. By 13 votes to 2,

All States are under an obligation not to recognize the illegal situation resulting from the construction of the wall and not to render aid or assistance in maintaining the situation created by such construction; all States parties to the Fourth Geneva Convention relative to the Protection of Civilian Persons in Time of War of 12 August 1949 have in addition the obligation, while respecting the United Nations Charter and international law, to ensure compliance by Israel with international humanitarian law as embodied in that Convention”;

“E. By 14 votes to 1,

The United Nations, and especially the General Assembly and the Security Council, should consider what further action is required to bring to an end the illegal situation resulting from the construction of the wall and the associated regime, taking due account of the present Advisory Opinion.”

See International Court of Justice (2004).

[34] See United Nations Security Council (2016), United Nations Security Council (1979), and United Nations Security Council (1980).

[35] “U.S. backs Israel on settlements, angering Palestinians and clouding peace process” (2019) states:

Pompeo said U.S. statements about the settlements on the West Bank, which Israel captured in 1967, had been inconsistent, saying Democratic President Jimmy Carter found they were not consistent with international law and Republican President Ronald Reagan said he did not view them as inherently illegal.

“The establishment of Israeli civilian settlements is not, per se, inconsistent with international law,” Pompeo told reporters at the State Department, reversing a formal legal position taken by the United States under Carter in 1978.

His announcement drew praise from Netanyahu, who said it “rights a historical wrong,” and condemnation from Palestinian negotiator Saeb Erekat, who said Washington was threatening “to replace international law with the ‘law of the jungle.’”

Palestinians argued the U.S. stance flouted international law. The international community views the transfer of any country’s civilians to occupied land as illegal under the Fourth Geneva Convention of 1949 and U.N. Security Council resolutions.

“The United States is neither qualified nor is authorized to negate international legitimacy resolutions and it has no right to give any legitimacy to Israeli settlement,” said Nabil Abu Rudeineh, a spokesman for Palestinian President Mahmoud Abbas.

The United States said its stance could prompt violence, warning Americans in the region to exercise greater vigilance because those opposing the move “may target” U.S. government facilities, private interests and citizens.

Jordan’s foreign minister, Ayman Safadi, said the policy change would have “dangerous consequences” for the prospects of reviving peace talks and called settlements “a blatant violation of international law.”

See Mohammed, Spetalnick, & Pamuk (2019).

[36] As noted by Lynk, one of the prime issues comes in the opposition to the universalism or universal application of international law to all member states of the United Nations without exception – hence, exceptionalism as a concern and universalism as a necessary ideal – to the actions of any Member State, wherein one exception creates the basis for other borderline ill-actors within the international community asking, “Why not me?” Universalism must be universal without exception to be “worth the paper that they are written on.”

[37] If you search this term in any of the search engines available, then you will find such use of the term as a common occurrence.

[38] For one example, see Israel Ministry of Foreign Affairs (2015a).

[39] For an opposing example, see United Nations Security Council (1982).

[40] Now, these discrepancies can raise questions about historicity of the titular claims or the reality of the claims to appropriation of a site based on particular historical narratives. BBC News in “Unesco passes contentious Jerusalem resolution” reported in 2016 on this issue:

Unesco’s executive board approved the Arab-sponsored resolution, which repeatedly refers to only the Islamic name for a hilltop complex which is also the holiest site in Judaism.

The site is known to Jews as the Temple Mount and Haram al-Sharif to Muslims.

The resolution caused Israel to freeze co-operation with Unesco last week.

The stated aim of the text was “the safeguarding of the cultural heritage of Palestine and the distinctive character of East Jerusalem”.

It criticises Israel’s activities at holy places in Jerusalem and the occupied West Bank.

But it is how it refers to the sites which prompted Israel to act against the cultural body.

While acknowledging the “importance of the Old City of Jerusalem and its walls for the three monotheistic religions”, the document refers to the sacred hilltop only by the name “al-Aqsa Mosque/al-Haram al-Sharif” (Noble Sanctuary).

It is the location of two Biblical Jewish temples and is flanked by the Western Wall, venerated by Jews as part of the original supporting wall of the temple compound.

Haram al-Sharif is also the place where Muslims believe the Prophet Muhammad ascended to Heaven, and is the third holiest site in Islam.

The draft refers to the precinct in front of the wall as “al-Buraq Plaza ‘Western Wall Plaza'” – placing single quote marks only around “Western Wall”, giving the name as it is known to Jews less weight than the one by which it is known to Muslims.

Unesco’s executive board chairman Michael Worbs said on Friday he would have liked more time to work out a compromise.

He told Israeli television network Channel 10: “It’s very exceptional what happened yesterday, and I’m sorry for that.”

On Tuesday, Israel’s Unesco ambassador, Carmel Shama Hacohen, accused the Palestinians of playing “games”.

“This is the wrong place to solve problems between countries or people,” he told AFP.

But Palestine’s deputy ambassador to Unesco, Mounir Anastas, welcomed the adoption of the resolution, saying he hoped it would put pressure on the Israeli authorities to “stop all their violations”, particularly the excavation of sites in and around the Old City.

See BBC News (2016).

[41] Not sure if this is the correct quote, however, George Orwell, in Politics and the English Language (1946), states:

In our time, political speech and writing are largely the defence of the indefensible. Things like the continuance of British rule in India, the Russian purges and deportations, the dropping of the atom bombs on Japan, can indeed be defended, but only by arguments which are too brutal for most people to face, and which do not square with the professed aims of the political parties. Thus political language has to consist largely of euphemism, question-begging and sheer cloudy vagueness. Defenceless villages are bombarded from the air, the inhabitants driven out into the countryside, the cattle machine-gunned, the huts set on fire with incendiary bullets: this is called pacification. Millions of peasants are robbed of their farms and sent trudging along the roads with no more than they can carry: this is called transfer of population or rectification of frontiers. People are imprisoned for years without trial, or shot in the back of the neck or sent to die of scurvy in Arctic lumber camps: this is called elimination of unreliable elements. Such phraseology is needed if one wants to name things without calling up mental pictures of them. Consider for instance some comfortable English professor defending Russian totalitarianism. He cannot say outright, ‘I believe in killing off your opponents when you can get good results by doing so’. Probably, therefore, he will say something like this:

‘While freely conceding that the Soviet regime exhibits certain features which the humanitarian may be inclined to deplore, we must, I think, agree that a certain curtailment of the right to political opposition is an unavoidable concomitant of transitional periods, and that the rigors which the Russian people have been called upon to undergo have been amply justified in the sphere of concrete achievement.’

The inflated style itself is a kind of euphemism. A mass of Latin words falls upon the facts like soft snow, blurring the outline and covering up all the details. The great enemy of clear language is insincerity. When there is a gap between one’s real and one’s declared aims, one turns as it were instinctively to long words and exhausted idioms, like a cuttlefish spurting out ink. In our age there is no such thing as ‘keeping out of politics’. All issues are political issues, and politics itself is a mass of lies, evasions, folly, hatred, and schizophrenia. When the general atmosphere is bad, language must suffer. I should expect to find — this is a guess which I have not sufficient knowledge to verify — that the German, Russian and Italian languages have all deteriorated in the last ten or fifteen years, as a result of dictatorship. [Emphasis added.]

See Orwell (1946).

[42] Statistics Canada reported 429 hate crimes based on religion in 2014, 469 hate crimes based on religion in 2015, 460 hate crimes based on religion in 2016, 842 hate crimes based on religion in 2017, 639 hate crimes based on religion in 2018. This averages 567.8 hate crimes per annum over a five year period based on the years of 2014, 2015, 2016, 2017, and 2018. See StatsCan (2018).

[43] See Ferreras (2018), where one can see coverage of anti-Muslim and anti-Jewish hate crimes, defined as such, in about equal measure in the number of the respective raw occurrences. Although, more Muslims, by a large comparative amount, live in Canada than Jewish peoples. Thus, per capita, Jewish peoples, at a minimum, report more if not experience more. In this context, anti-Jewish means anti-Semitic, and vice versa.

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2022-05-14

Dr. Norman Finkelstein on the International Criminal Court

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/13

Dr. Norman Finkelstein remains one of the foremost experts and independent scholars on the Israeli occupation and the crimes against the Palestinians. His most recent book is I Accuse!: Herewith a Proof beyond Reasonable Doubt That ICC Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda Whitewashed Israel (2020). Professor Emeritus John Dugard at Leiden University, former Special Rapporteur to the UN Human Rights Council on Human Rights in the Occupied Palestinian Territory and member of the International Law Commission, gave an endorsement, to the previous text Gaza: An Inquest into Its Martyrdom, “Norman Finkelstein, probably the most serious scholar on the conflict in the Middle East, has written an excellent book on Israel’s invasions of Gaza. Its comprehensive examination of both the facts and the law of these assaults provides the most authoritative account of this brutal history.”

Here we talk about the International Criminal Court.

*Interview conducted on July 27, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we’ve done some interviews before. I have done some interviews with some others with some recommendations from you, or others who are journalists or dealing directly with the human rights violations regarding Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. You have published another book. It is entitled I Accuse!. So, it is focused around the ICC Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda. For those who are not aware of the developments happening at the International Criminal Court, what are some of the pieces of the image that can help sketch things out with regards to the development of the case on rights violations, rights abuse, in regards to Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, or the Israelis and the Palestinians?

Dr. Norman Finkelstein: Well, the first point to make is it is a little bit confusing. So, I have to go slowly. Also, I have to clarify. At the outset, there are not one but two cases before the International Criminal Court pertaining to the Palestinians. The first case was referred to the court by the Union of the Comoros. The Union of the Comoros is a small country. It happened to be the country to which the Mavi Marmara, which was the flagship of the flotilla that went to Gaza in May, 2010, and came under Israeli assault. By the end, 9 passengers had been killed. A 10^th died later, he was in a coma and died from his wounds. That case, as I said, was referred to the court by the Union of the Comoros. There are a lot of technicalities about the court, which, unfortunately, I have to go through in order to clarify the status of the cases. The first technicality is the International Criminal Court is not a universal court or does not possess universal jurisdiction. In order to bring a case before the court, you have to be a state. Effectively, what a state does, it says, “We will join the court or we’re requesting that the court take over criminal jurisdiction for this or that situation.” So, the Union of the Comoros is a state party to the ICC, the International Criminal Court. So, it had the option, which it exercised, to refer the case of the Mavi Marmara to the ICC.

The case sat in the ICC for quite a long time. Fatou Bensouda, the Chief Prosecutor, was trying to drag out the case. In the end, let me just clarify, there are several stages to any case that comes before the court referral. There are several stages to each situation that comes before the court. The first step is called the preliminary examination. In the preliminary examination, the Chief Prosecutor decides whether there is enough evidence to support an investigation. And then, after an investigation, there is, again, another stage. Is there sufficient evidence for an indictment? Then after the indictment, there is the actual prosecution, and the decision, whether or not the party or parties are guilty of the crimes. So, we’re talking about a very early stage, which is called the preliminary investigation. Fatou Bensouda decided that the case or the referral was, to a technical term of the court, of ‘insufficient gravity’ [Ed. “…the situation would not be of sufficient gravity to justify further action…”] to warrant stage two, an investigation. To now go through, quickly, because I think the basics are now clear for your listeners [Ed. readers], there was a lot of pushback in the court because it was clear the Chief Prosecutor was engaging in a whitewash and cover up. She, basically, simply appropriated all of the arguments and all of the effectively fake evidence that Israel presented in order to justify her refusal to move on to stage two, an investigation.

As I said, there was a lot of pushback in the court. A lot of people inside the court were not happy with the way Bensouda was conducting the case. There was sufficient pushback that she had to reconsider her decision. She alleged that she reconsidered it, but came to the same conclusion. For a second time, she declared the case closed. Then there was pushback again. The case, she was forced to reconsider. The third time, she declared it closed. Now, it is in a new stage of appeal by the lawyers for the victims in the case. So, that case, she’s attempted three times to kill it. She closed the case three times. However, now, it’s under appeal again. Simultaneously, with that case, the state of Palestine has referred a separate/distinct case to the court. Basically, its essence is the Israeli settlements in the West Bank, which are illegal under international law and a war crime under the Rome Statute of the International Criminal Court and the murderous Israeli assault on Gaza in 2014 Operation Protective Edge. Now, what happened there is, to make a long story short, Bensouda switched sides.

Where before, she carried out a whitewash and a cover up for Israel. In this new situation, as it is called, she has fiercely championed the Palestinian side. Now, it is coming under attack from the U.S. and Israel. Where we currently stand is, there are two technical issues in the case currently referred to by the state of Palestine. Each of the technical issues will be very clear to your listeners. So, it doesn’t require extensive elaboration. Issue number one, I said it earlier to you. In order to present the case to the court, you have to be a state. Basically, you’re delegating to the state. Your sovereign right to prosecute war crimes. You’re saying, “We’d rather you prosecute this case.” So, the issue arose, “Is Palestine a state?” If it is not a state, it doesn’t have the right to refer any situation to the court. So, question number one, “Is Palestine a state?” Question number two, if a court is going to prosecute, it has to know, “What is the territorial extent of the court?” So, you have to know. If a state refers a case, let’s say Canada refers a case to the ICC, Canada is a Member State.

Let’s say, for arguments sake, the United States launched an unprovoked attack on Canada. So, they attacked Canadian territory. Canada refers the case to the ICC. So, the first thing the ICC has to decide is, “Was the attack on Canadian soil?” Because Canada can only refer cases that occur in its state. So, the court has to know whether or not the attack occurred on Canadian soil or something under Canadian jurisdiction, e.g., a Canadian vessel or a Canadian plane. So, the second issue before the court is, “Even assuming Palestine is a state, what is the territory of that state?” Because, as you know, Israel insists the West Bank including East Jerusalem and Gaza are disputed territories. That there is no Palestinian territory. So, where that second referral now stands is, it has to be determined a) whether Palestine is a state; and b), if it is a state, what are the territorial demarcations of the state?

Jacobsen: With regards to the definition of a state within the United Nations, and as it is being presented to the court, and for the readers today, the terminology for a state within the United Nations is a “Member State,” as many are aware, for perfect clarity. With regards to the definition of occupied Palestinian territory or the state of Palestine, how is this proceeding in regards to the evidence being presented on a) status as a state and b) the territorial demarcations of said state, if defined as such?

Finkelstein: Okay, I’ll give you the principal arguments on both sides. On the UN question, Palestine is officially defined as a non-member observer state. That’s its status. So, it is not a member of the General Assembly, but it is classified as a state: non-member observer state. I think the only other entity that has that definition is the Vatican. The Vatican also has non-member observer state status. Whether or not Palestine is a state, the essence comes down to the following: technical, under what is called the Montevideo criteria, a state has four characteristics. It has a territory. It has a population. It has an effective government. And it has the capacity to engage in foreign relations to sign treaties and things like that. Those are the four technical criteria of a state. The issue that has been the most contentious between the two sides is the effective government. Israel and its supporters say, “Palestine does not have an effective government. It is under Israeli occupation. The governmental rights of the state, in particular the criminal rights of a state, were handed over to Israel in the Oslo Accord.”

So, the Oslo Accord says, ‘The Palestinians have no criminal jurisdiction over Israelis in the West Bank.’ The Oslo Accord says, ‘The Palestinians have no criminal jurisdiction over Area C,’ which is where most of the settlements are located. So, the argument of Israel is, “In the Oslo Accord, the Palestinians handed over already all criminal jurisdiction to Israel. Having done that, it cannot go and say it will hand over criminal jurisdiction to the ICC. They can’t do it because they signed over the jurisdiction in the Oslo Accord to Israel.” The main argument on the Palestinian side is, “If Palestinians don’t have an effective government, it is because of Israeli criminality. In particular, the building of the settlements, the building of the wall. All of these illegal undertakings are the reason why Palestinians don’t exercise effective government.” So, the argument is, “If you say, ‘Palestinians can’t refer a case to the ICC because they don’t have effective government,’ you’re, in effect, rewarding Israel for illegal behaviour.” The argument being, “It is Israeli illegal behaviour that is responsible for the fact that Palestinians aren’t able to exercise effective government.” So, those are the main arguments on both sides.

After the issue of territory, the main Israeli argument is, “The Palestinians agreed that territorial issues would be resolved in the course of negotiations. So, the Palestinians agreed to defer into the future the question of whose territory is it.” The main argument on the Palestinian side is, “It has already been decided by the International Court of Justice, for example, that the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and Gaza, constitute – to use the nomenclature of the UN including the ICJ, the International Court of Justice, which is the principal judicial body of the United Nations – occupied Palestinian territories.” So, they say, “The issue of territory has been resolved. You want to know what the territorial jurisdiction of the ICC in this case. All you have to do is look at UN resolutions, look at the advisory opinion of the ICJ (the International Court of Justice). They all agree that the West Bank, including East Jerusalem and Gaza, are occupied Palestinian territory.”

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Finkelstein.

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2022-05-14

Interview with Donna Lent – President, National Women’s Political Caucus

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/11

Donna Lent is the President of the National Women’s Political Caucus. Her profile states: “Donna Lent, a member of NWPC for twenty-five years, was elected to an unprecedented third term as President at the NWPC Biennial Convention in 2019. Donna has successfully reduced overhead for the National office by 62%. Prior to this position, she was First Vice President of the National Board and Vice President of Political Planning for four years. She has also served as President of the New York State Caucus.

Before entering public service, Donna enjoyed a successful career as a Law Office Manager and small business owner. In 2001, Donna left the private sector and joined an NYS Assemblywoman as the Chief of Staff, where she played a crucial role in the passage of important legislation protecting and expanding women’s rights. After serving the constituents of the Third Assembly District, she was appointed Chief Deputy Town Clerk for the Town of Brookhaven in 2010. Donna is currently the elected Town Clerk of Brookhaven, NY, a role she assumed in 2013 with 60% of the vote and elected to a second four-year term in 2017.

In 1992 Donna was one of the principals spearheading the nearly three year effort to create the NY State Choice Party; a counter to the NY State Right to Life Party.”

Here we talk about American politics and women’s rights.

*Interview conducted on August 3, 2020.*

—

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, this is the National Women’s Political Caucus. For those who do not know, what is the National Women’s Political Caucus in the United States? Also, how can some in Canada learn from such an effort and build on this to make sure Canadian concerns around these issues are more robustly supported as well – akin to this for the Americans?

Donna Lent: That is a very interesting point that you’ve made. Let me start out by saying, the National Women’s Political Caucus was formed in 1971. It is the oldest multi-partisan grassroots women’s organization dedicated to increasing women’s participation in the political process at all levels.

Our acronym, NWPC, refers to how we recruit, train, and invite pro-choice women at all levels of government. Also, we seek to put more women in appointed office. So, we have been doing this since 1971. Our founders include Americans Stella Adler, Shirley Chisholm, Gloria Steinem, Betty Friedan, Dorothy Height, these were great wonderful women who saw an opportunity that was not being addressed. They took the opportunity to getting more women involved in political office.

Because if we do not have a seat at the table, then you don’t have anything. That is what we’ve been doing. We have been doing trainings. We have trained many of the leaders of the country. We do training across the country. We have a “train the trainers” program.

I remember a few years back sitting in a training a few years back in Seattle, Washington. There was a woman from Canada for this. I cannot remember the name. People endorse us. The prospect of talking to somebody in Canada and doing something similar there; I would welcome it.

Jacobsen: How do American women’s rights campaigners, on the political level, look at the Canadian example? So, what is Canada doing right? What is Canada doing wrong?

Lent: I would say the first thing you are doing right is having the right kind of Prime Minister.

Jacobsen: Right [Laughing].

Lent: For one, it is is not really a discussion being had, but, maybe, it is an interesting topic to explore. It is not something to explore to me. We are so busy taking care of chapters across the United States. Not much thought is given to what is going on in other countries.

Sometimes, there will be comparisons to what happens here or other events at different locations when it comes to equality.

Jacobsen: As the NWPC President, the big picture view, what are your major concerns? Other than some of the daily putting out of small fires.

Lent: The reason, and 25 years ago when I got involved in the NWPC, is simply because my interest is in the political side. We are the NWPC. We grew out of the National Organization for Women. They are known as NOW and are more issue oriented. The caucus grew out of the political.

Jacobsen: One of the major political issues with social, economic, and policy implications in the United States has to do with the upcoming election with some caveats around some commentary around delays, as of recent.

However, given the erratic nature of the current Trump Administration, it could change. It could change in a number of ways. It could be worse. It could be better. You never know. However, assuming the election will run later this year, and with some of the candidates proposed now, what is the central concern outside from particular political candidates – we’ll get to those soon – for women who are of a progressive orientation looking at this very crucial election? What is the big “must” moving towards this election?

Lent: The big “must” is we must oppose Donald Trump [Laughing]. I do not know if the country will survive another 4 years. He has attacked the system, whether de-regulation, climate control, women’s rights, immigrant rights.

He has really methodically, methodically, been tearing down the fabric of what we have been building for years by trying to become a more progressive nation. In 4 short years, look at what he has done, there is nothing more important than removing him from office for us.

We were on board and behind Hillary Clinton before. To say we were disappointed, you cannot put that in words. There is no way to really express how devastating it was to women across the country. Not all women, I get that.

I remember the following day. I was getting calls from people who had worked with us, e.g., interns, staff person, etc. We realized that we had to pull it together because we had to show the younger women how to get into the fight again and continue working.

That is what we have been doing. In 2018, the women we endorsed for office, the campaigns that we helped, the trainings that we did. We have record numbers of women running in the United States. We have an assurance or a promise from Joe Biden that he is choosing a woman as his vice presidential choice.

We do not really care. It could be anyone. You see the different women who we profiled in the Imagine series. It could be any one of them. One thing is sure. If Biden is running, then there will be a capable woman running who will have our endorsement.

As an organization, we have already voted to endorse whoever is elected because when women show up; women win, and everyone wins. That is what we’re working for. We are really excited about the announcement that is going to come next week.

There is no proof as to who it is going to be. However, as I said, any one of them will be, certainly, someone who we will be proud to get behind and to help support, and to help this ticket win in November. That was our goal in the Imagine campaign.

It was to highlight the women being considered because we don’t want it to be a situation where once Biden chooses his vice presidential running mate; that the other women are forgotten. My sense is probably every one of those women will somehow be chosen to work at a high level in the Biden administration, if not even a Cabinet position.

We want to be sure. Even if they are not chosen to be the vie presidential nominee, we really did want to highlight them and to say, “We’re behind each and every one of them.” It is a great opportunity for a woman to be in the second command of this country.

Jacobsen: Who are the main threats in terms of organized groups in the United States to issues very much touchstones for women’s rights, i.e., reproductive healthcare, women’s free access to opportunities in education or employment, and the freedom to pick one of the three choices in life – in terms of free choice – in the home, a mix between home and professional life, or purely professional life?

Lent: When the announcement finally happens, I am looking to having, at least, one day of celebration.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Lent: And to feel some joy, because I know shortly thereafter the misogyny will begin and go on the attack. We have to be prepared for that. I think one of the things that we need to have in this country, and which Joe Biden supports, is the Equal Rights Amendment. We do not have one in this country.

Other countries are democracies. The United States will require the imagination that they have an equal rights amendment in their constitution. Yet, we do not have one in ours. I know many people are not aware. Women are not equal here.

The Equal Rights Amendment is for all people. It is not codified in the Constitution. So, a lot of the things mentioned by you. There is a lot of activity in the United States right now surrounding it. We are one of the lead organizations in another group called the ERA Coalition.

We have gotten hearings in Congress. We have assurances from the Senate minority leader. There is going to be a push for the ERA. The initial law requires 30 states. They have extended the time limit. Virginia became the 38^th state to ratify.

The other 13 had time expire. We joined and filed an amicus brief in a case to do away with the time limit. We are hoping that that will be heard in next year’s session.

Jacobsen: As a side question, what state in the United States has the worst reputation and status for women’s rights?

Lent: Oh! There are so many.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Lent: Mostly, it is the southern states: Louisiana, Alabama, Tennessee. Even though, I have chapters in Tennessee to get women elected. Mississippi has never had a woman serving in Congress. There are other areas in regards to education.

There are so many. You have South Carolina. North Carolina, now, has a new governor. There is an effort in North Carolina to pass the ERA too.

Jacobsen: If Joe Biden is elected, and anyone of the women from the Imagine campaign is put forward and made the vice president, how would you rank order the top three asks as an organization, as NWPC, for improving the status of women’s rights? This will be time-bound because of the shredding of some facets of the institutions and the policies built in the past for the stabilization and implementation of women’s rights in the United States.

Lent: The first step would be passing tan Equal Rights Amendment. That would go a long way. Then we have healthcare. We have childcare. Those are really important issues, which are really compelling and deserve a lot of attention.

Then you have climate control. We have gun control. There are so may issues. Women bring a different perspective. I think that very often, especially in some of the states or the more [Laughing] red states with gun rights and fun ownership, families, and God; the gun rights can become more important than the making sure every child has a meal before they go to bed at night.

We have a Equal Rights Amendment. We have childcare. For example, here in the United States with the Covid issue, Trump is pushing to opening up the schools. However, we cannot have schools on part-time. Women are working. How are they going to care for their children?

You can’t have a job and work two days a week because, then, you’re not going to have a job. Yet, there has been no talk about provision to provide financial assistance with childcare to get women through this healthcare crisis. It is a healthcare crisis.

Jacobsen: In the general demographic cut up, according to experts in the United States, the categories that tend to come forward are white Americans, black Americans, Asian Americans, Hispanic Americans, Jewish Americans, Arab Americans, and Native Americans.

Each has different issues, different privileges, etc. What are the issue particular to women of colour in the United States? How is this reflected in some of the demands made upon politicians by women of colour who are ordinary citizens who happen, in general and on average, tend to lead more precarious lives than women who are not?

Lent: What is important in that, it is to be able to hear from women in each of those communities, to include those women in the discussions, policy discussions. How do you do that? You have them fill positions.

Maybe, it is not the woman struggling and working three jobs. But maybe, there are other women who understand the plight they are going through. Maybe, they women have chosen a path that is political and policymaking.

It is important to have voice for women of colour. It is important that we do not have one person, whether white or brown, speak for such a rainbow of people. Everybody needs to have their authentic voice heard. That is why women need to be at the table.

You cannot assume because you have put a woman in the position or that she wanted the position; that she will understand, at her core, what a Native American woman is going through. So, that is why it is important.

We have a diversity committee. I have a Vice-President for Diversity and Outreach, where a lot of attention is paid to this topic. When I was elected as president of this organization in 2015, I set out to have one of the most diverse boards that the caucus has ever seen.

“Diversity” does not mean black or white. It leads to disabled people, younger people, economic diversity. There are some women that have done very well for themselves. They serve on our board. But you also have to have the voice of a woman who can’t write the big cheque.

Because if you close yourself off to that, then you are really not serving.

Jacobsen: What is the most tragic story that you have ever heard?

Lent: We hear about women who really do struggle with a lot of issues. We hear from women because of an economic situation have lost their children. We have been involved in cases where the father of the house has taken the child back to another country.

I had a case in Florida who tried to get her child back. There is so many. A lot of people will contact her. They are grabbing at straws and looking for help. But because we, for the most part, as a political organization; we try to help by referring them out to other services that may able to help them.

I had one case. I will not say, “This is tragic,” by any means, but I want to give an idea of what we do. It was someone ex-military. Her husband was still on active duty. She had two children. One was a newborn. He had chosen – the husband – to work in the Trump Administration.

So, it was an open seat. That is what we call it when it is an incumbent running. She wanted to run, but she was out of the service for 2 to 2.5 years going against another very wealthy male candidate and was having trouble putting us together to run a campaign.

We arranged to get her complete professional wardrobe. We shipped it down to South Carolina. So, she could have more confidence and present herself professionally to help with the campaign. It was the primary. She was still involved politically.

I remember her first campaign video. She did the video breastfeeding her baby. That was new, only three years ago, roughly. That is our mission: to get women, find them, train them, recruit them to run, and have them cross the finish line.

Jacobsen: I am told of a growing academic literature rather than even a sociological commentary on the phenomenon of Christian Nationalism. This ties to the same idea as Dominionism or Reconstructionism within a particular brand of theocratically oriented theology coming out of Christianity.

What is the cross-section there between some of the work you’re doing, and some of the organizations or personalities that are grounded in this notion of the providence of the Christian god, for having a Christian nation and having their particular idiosyncratic reading of Christian theology placed into political life, policy, and the wider culture of the United States?

Lent: I am not by any means think I am an authoritative voice on this. I ma here to tell you. Here in the United States, Christianity is used in a way that, in the end, I believe, ends up hurting women and families, e.g., Betsy DeVos, the U.S. Secretary of Education.

She is definitely education here. Her and her husband made their money with for-profit prisons and charter schools. She is responsible for making policies for schools in this country. For the caucus, that is something.

For example, our board members, I have Jewish women. I am sure; I have agnostic women. I have Christians within the membership. I have Muslim woman on the board from Tennessee. The organization is based in politics. Religion is not the forefront of that.

Jacobsen: My final question: Any recommended books, authors, organizations, or speakers for the readers today?

Lent: There are so many books written on this topic. We have a little known book by one of our founding members. She is not even a well-known founding member. But she was featured on the recent Hulu series called Mrs. America. Although, I appreciate bringing some attention, certainly, to our organization.

I was not appreciative of the way in which they portrayed some of our founding women. It is called, the book, Not One of the Boys: Living Life as a Feminist by Brenda Feigen. It is not philosophical thought.

It is more a personal accounting of living during the 60s and the 70s trying to live life as a feminist. Many times, people start with Betty Friedan’s Feminine Mystique. There are a lot of works looking at the first wave, second wave, of feminism.

Personally, I am the person who does not want to sit around the table and talk about the philosophy of the feminist person. I am the type of person who wants to make it happen. That is why the caucus was good for me.

Because you work and then have a result. You find a woman who you think would make a good public official. You recruit her, train her, and then get her elected. Then you move on to the next. So, you can fill the table in every locality with a woman’s voice. That’s how change is made.

Because you need the perspective. The book I happen to be reading now is by Robyn DiAngelo called White Fragility: Why It is So Hard for White People to Talk about Racism if you want to talk about social impact.

Jacobsen: Donna, thank you for your time today.

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2022-05-14

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 7 – New Heights to the Plight and the Fight: Covid-19, Hegemony, Restrictions, and Rights

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/10

Omar Shakir, J.D., M.A. works as the Israel and Palestine Director for Human Rights Watch. He investigates a variety of human rights abuses within the occupied Palestinian territories/Occupied Palestinian Territories or oPt/OPT (Gaza and the West Bank, including East Jerusalem) and Israel. Language recognized in the work of the OHCHR, Amnesty International, Oxfam International, United Nations, World Health Organization, International Labor Organization, UNRWA, UNCTAD, and so on. Some see the Israeli-Palestinian issue as purely about religion. Thus, this matters to freethought. These ongoing interviews explore this issue in more depth. He earned a B.A. in International Relations from Stanford University, an M.A. in Arab Studies from Georgetown University’s School of Foreign Affairs, and a J.D. from Stanford Law School. He is bilingual in Arabic and English. Previously, he was a Bertha Fellow at the Center for Constitutional Rights with a focus on U.S. counterterrorism policies, which included legal representation of Guantanamo detainees. He was the Arthur R. and Barbara D. Finberg Fellow (2013-2014) for Human Rights Watch with investigations, during this time, into the human rights violations in Egypt, e.g., the Rab’a massacre, which is one of the largest killings of protestors in a single day ever. Also, he was a Fulbright Scholar in Syria.

Here we continue with the 7th part in our series of conversations with coverage in the middle of March to the middle of April for the Israeli-Palestinian issue. With the deportation of Shakir, this follows in line with state actions against others, including Amnesty International staff member Laith Abu Zeyad when attempting to see his mother dying from cancer (Amnesty International, 2019; Zeyad, 2019; Amnesty International, 2020), United States Congresswoman Rashida Tlaib and United States Congresswoman Ilhan Omar who were subject to being barred from entry (Romo, 2019), Professor Noam Chomsky who was denied entry (Hass, 2010), and Dr. Norman Finkelstein who was deported in the past (Silverstein, 2008). Shakir commented in an opinion piece:

Now, based on the decision of the Israeli Supreme Court and the actions of the Member State of the United Nations, Israel, he, for this session, works from Amman, Jordan.

*Interview conducted on April 19, 2020. The previous interview conducted on March 16, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: With regards to Israel and Israeli society, what have been some human rights violations against Israelis since we last talked (Jacobsen, 2020a)?

Omar Shakir: I think the major issue that’s dominated the world for the past six weeks or so has been the coronavirus and the way in which different governments have responded to it (Schalit & Zion, 2020; The Associated Press, 2020; Akram, 2020a; Daraghmeh & Krauss, 2020; Akram, 2020b; Akram, 2020c; Federman, 2020; Reuters, 2020a; Ganeyeh & Shakhshir, 2020; Reuters, 2020b; Reuters, 2020c; Najib & Halbfinger, 2020). On the Israeli side, of course, that’s necessitated significant restrictions, including limitations on movement between towns and cities inside Israel, as well as closures of entire neighbourhoods (TOI Staff, 2020; Jerusalem Post Staff, 2020) where there has been significant exposure to the virus (al-Mughrabi, 2020). We have seen limitations on travel into and out of the country necessitated by the virus (Nimeh & Sawafta, 2020). So, a lot of the focus has been on both efforts to contain the virus as well, as on some of the restrictions brought about as a result of it (Toameh, & Ahronheim, 2020). Of course, the fact of restriction does not automatically connote rights abuse. It has to be taken holistically into account given the situation in the country. Certainly, there have been numerous ways in which the Israeli government’s response to the Covid-19 pandemic has manifested the institutional discrimination at the core of the system (Federman, 2020; Magdy & Krauss, 2020). For example, we have seen the Israeli government shut down testing centers in East Jerusalem for claiming that it was being supported by the Palestinian Authority (Hasson, 2020).

We have also seen areas in which the Israeli government has not provided sufficient testing of populations such as areas in the Jerusalem municipality, but outside the separation barrier, including Shuafat and Kafr ‘Aqab, where you have well more than 100,000 residents (Abraham, 2020; Al-Waara, 2020a). In these areas, there was no testing for several weeks until after the human rights group Adalah filed a lawsuit (Ibid.). We’ve also seen concerns raised about surveillance (Melman, R., Fatafta, M., & Berda, Y., 2020). The Israeli government, as part of its Covid-19 response, passed regulations that widened the scope of surveillance that Shin Bet and the government was allowed to carry out in response to the health crisis (Bajak & Winefield, 2020; Heller, 2020). Of course, there have been lawsuits filed by Israeli human rights organizations who fear this could widen the scope of surveillance conducted by the government and remain in place after the crisis wanes down.

Jacobsen: If we are looking down at one of the areas where people are most fearful of calamity, how are cases looking there?

Shakir: Gaza Strip, the number of cases remain low, but there is significant concern about what would happen should the virus enter (Akram, 2020d; Akram, Aji, & Krauss, 2020). The Israeli closure has weakened considerably the healthcare system in the Gaza Strip (United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs: Occupied Palestinian Territory, 2020). The local health ministry has reported on a shortage of ventilators and ICU beds (Relief Web/Physicians for Human Rights Israel, 2020). Of course, should the crises continue and there are more cases there, there is a question to what extent Gaza can handle such a situation amid closure (al-Qedra, 2020). At the same time, there is concern about the number of testing kits and a question as to the efficacy of the strategy of the Hamas authorities to largely focus on restricting those who re-enter Gaza and putting them in quarantine centers (Toameh, & Ahronheim, 2020). There isn’t widespread testing being done on the rest of the population (Reuters/Jerusalem Post, 2020). There is concern about number of testing kits received based on the restrictions by Israel, potentially the PA, and other actors (Ibid.; United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs: Occupied Palestinian Territory, 2020; United Nations Office of the High Commissioner, 2018). So, the Hamas authorities like others have shut down much of life in the Gaza Strip. There is a lot of concern given Gaza is one of the most densely populated places on Earth. Social distancing, which has been a central response around the world, is much more difficult in Gaza (BBC News, n.d.).

There is a concern about the possibility of an outbreak. It still yet has to take place; if this is to happen in the coming weeks and months, then the prospect for a humanitarian disaster, unfortunately, would be quite high.

Jacobsen: What about the West Bank?

Shakir: In the West Bank, the Palestinian Authority has very quickly, when this crisis began, taken measures in the areas where it exercises a degree of control (Haaretz, 2020). The outbreak began in Bethlehem there with a number of cases and spread to other parts of the West Bank (Zeidan, 2020). The PA has also declared lockdowns throughout (Ragson, 2020). As part of those efforts, it has been particularly concerned regarding Palestinian workers who have permits to work in Israel or settlements and have increasingly returned (Xinhua, 2020). Many of them came back with symptoms of the coronavirus (Al-Waara, 2020b). The government is taking a very proactive position because it faces limitations like in Gaza when it comes to healthcare capacity and ability to response, as well as the nature of Israeli hegemony and domination throughout the West Bank (Jacobsen, 2020a; Jacobsen, 2020b). These dynamics limit the degree to which the PA is able to take a robust response. Of course, there is concern again there about what could happen should things escalate. We have seen the PA and Israel take sharper measures to restrict movement within the West Bank and, of course, and between the West bank and inside Israel – and between East Jerusalem and the rest of the West Bank.

Jacobsen: With regards to East Jerusalem, is the situation more or less the same with hegemonic restrictions with the capacity to deal with the crisis?

Shakir: Israel annexed East Jerusalem in 1967 in a move no other country except maybe the Trump Administration in the U.S. acknowledges, but the municipality has in its planning document a commitment to maintaining the Jewish majority (Jacobsen, 2020c; Jacobsen, 2020b). It maintains deeply discriminatory systems. It has manifested itself in regards to the coronavirus, both in terms of availability of testing and the ways in which authorities have dealt with the different populations and communities. There have been more cases as of late. There have been efforts by the PA to help build the capacities of different neighbourhoods. Those efforts have resulted in the shuttering of testing centres, arrest of authorities linked to the PA trying to mount a response, at the same time the Israeli government has failed to meet its duties in regards to the communities there. In many ways, the Covid pandemic has exposed the deep discrimination at the core of Israel’s regime of control of Palestinians throughout the territories (Human Rights Watch, 2019).

Jacobsen: What about the relieving of the elderly and the sick, or otherwise, in Israel?

Shakir: I assume we’re talking about places of detention.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Shakir: There has been concern over the plight of prisoners about the spread of the virus in places of detention (The International Committee of the Red Cross, 2020; Nassar, 2020). We have seen places around the world shutter prisons and release prisoners (Radio Farda, 2020). On the Israeli side, we have seen the release of some detainees, particularly Jewish prisoners. We haven’t seen much movement to date in terms of Palestinian political prisoners, or what Israeli authorities consider “security detainees.” We do know that there were at least four Palestinians exposed to an interrogator who was infected by the coronavirus (Samidoun Palestinian Prisoner Solidarity Network, 2020). Of course, there has been concern about a potential outbreak in places of detention. Human Rights Watch has universally called on governments, including the Israeli government, to release detainees, particularly those who are vulnerable to the virus in addition to aggressively guarding against spread and ensuring quality healthcare for all in detention.

Jacobsen: Some have been making some commentary with Covid-19, the reactions to Covid-19, in terms of the governmental or state measures to restrict its measures throughout territories or societies. The comparison has been made on the restrictions on the lives of Palestinians imposed in part now in those in more free or the freer societies. Is this a window into seeing the situation through the eyes of Palestinians in terms of the restrictions on their lives when those restrictions, some of them, are imposed, for health reasons, on freer societies’ citizens’ lives?

Shakir: I would say Covid-19 restrictions offer a glimpse into the Palestinian experience. At the end of the day, it is only a glimpse because Palestinians have faced for decades far worse restrictions (Human Rights Watch, 2019). Covid-19 restrictions pale in comparison to what Palestinians have faced for decades. Take, for example, movement restrictions, the Israeli government inside its own government has imposed restrictions on inner city travel for short periods and has imposed closures on entire neighbourhoods, but Israel for the past 13 years has closed the Gaza Strip – effectively caged, alongside Egypt, 2 million people as per a generalized travel ban vastly disproportionate to any security threat, where people cannot travel or leave Gaza, including to the rest of the occupied Palestinian territory, with only narrow exceptions. Israel also for the 2.5 million Palestinians in the West Bank imposes severe travel restrictions, including blocking their access to the rest of the occupied West Bank, and having them face hundreds of checkpoints inside the West Bank where a routine drive to school, work, to family can turn into an hours-long humiliating ordeal (United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs: Occupied Palestinian Territory, 2020). Covid-19 has also resulted in family separation worldwide, but this has been Israeli policy with regards to Palestinians for many years. Israel passed a law in 2003 that prohibits Israeli citizens or spouses from bringing their spouse to live with them in Israel or in occupied East Jerusalem or to grant them long-term legal status if they are Palestinian from the West Bank or Gaza (Human Rights Watch, 2005). Israel since 2000 has largely frozen the process that would allow Palestinians in the West Bank and the Gaza Strip to confer status to a spouse that is not living in the same area. But unlike the coronavirus restrictions, which are temporary and meant to protect one’s citizens, the restrictions on Palestinians have been in place for over half of a century with no signs of ending any time soon and they’re not meant to protect Palestinians.

Jacobsen: What happened with the Gaza activists who were jailed by Hamas based on a video chat with Israelis?

Shakir: Sure, Hamas authorities in Gaza Strip have detained for over a week now 7 activists for participating in a Zoom call or video chat with Israelis (Akram, 2020e). They have charged them or have accused them with engaging in “normalization” or activities with Israelis not rooted in challenging Israeli repression. These detainees remain in detention. They have been subjected – some of them, at least –to mistreatment in detention. There is no justification for detaining people for their peaceful free expression, whether or not you agree with that political speech. Hamas authorities should immediately release these men. It is part of a systematic, longstanding process of arbitrarily arresting individuals based on their free expression and mistreating and torturing them in detention.

Jacobsen: What about the clinic in Silwan that was raided and then activists were arrested?

Shakir: As I mentioned, I think, it manifests part of the discriminatory system in Jerusalem and throughout Israel and Palestine. It seems that the Israeli government has failed in many areas to meet its obligation of providing testing and health care to Palestinian communities. When other actors try to provide that, instead of actually dealing with the underlying issue, which is the access to healthcare for the community, it has gone ahead and detained those who are trying to provide that service.

Jacobsen: Why does Saudi Arabia have a mass trial and arrests of Jordanians?

Shakir: I would refer you to a publication we just issued on the subject, which you can find online: “Saudi Arabia: Abuses Taint Mass Terrorism Trial.”

Jacobsen: Take care, Omar.

Shakir: Alright, Scott, take care and stay healthy.

Previous Sessions (Chronological Order)

Interview with Omar Shakir – Israel and Palestine Director, Human Rights Watch (Middle East and North Africa Division)

HRW Israel and Palestine (MENA) Director on Systematic Methodology and Universal Vision

Human Rights Watch (Israel and Palestine) on Common Rights and Law Violations

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 1 – Recent Events

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 2 – Demolitions

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 3 – November-December: Deportation from Tel Aviv, Israel for Human Rights Watch Israel and Palestine Director

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 4 – Uninhabitable: The Viability of Gaza Strip’s 2020 Unlivability

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 5 – The Trump Peace Plan: Is This the “The Deal of the Century,” or Not?

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 6 – Tripartite Partition: The Israeli Elections, the International Criminal Court (ICC), and SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19

Addenda

Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) Addendum: Some History and Contextualization of Rights

Other Resources Internal to Canadian Atheist

Interview with Dr. Norman Finkelstein on Gaza Now

Extensive Interview with Gideon Levy

Interview with Musa Abu Hashash – Field Researcher (Hebron District), B’Tselem

Interview with Gideon Levy – Columnist, Haaretz

Interview with Dr. Usama Antar – Independent Political Analyst (Gaza Strip, Palestine)

Interview with Wesam Ahmad – Representative, Al-Haq (Independent Palestinian Human Rights Organization)

Extensive Interview with Professor Richard Falk – Fmr. (5th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with Professor John Dugard – Fmr. (4th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Extensive Interview with S. Michael Lynk – (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Conversation with John Dugard, Richard Falk, and S. Michael Lynk on the Role of the Special Rapporteur, and the International Criminal Court & Jurisdiction

To resolve the Palestinian question we need to end colonialism

Trump’s Colonial Solution to the Question of Palestine Threatens the Foundations of International Law

References

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Jacobsen, S.D. (2020b, March 26). Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 5 – The Trump Peace Plan: Is This the “The Deal of the Century,” or Not?. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2020/03/ask-hrw-israel-and-palestine-5-jacobsen/.

Jacobsen, S.D. (2020a, April 9). Ask HRW (Israel and Palestine) 6 – Tripartite Partition: The Israeli Elections, the International Criminal Court (ICC), and SARS-CoV-2/COVID-19. Retrieved from https://www.canadianatheist.com/2020/04/ask-hrw-israel-and-palestine-6-jacobsen/.

Jerusalem Post Staff. (2020, March 30). Dozens of Israeli towns close gates amid coronavirus outbreak. Retrieved from https://www.jpost.com/israel-news/dozens-of-israeli-towns-close-gates-amid-coronavirus-outbreak-622910.

Magdy, S. & Krauss, J. (2020, March 25). Aid group says Mideast lockdowns hinder humanitarian efforts. Retrieved from https://apnews.com/44e3114cd4bcda1fb63949b0fe1773f9.

Melman, R., Fatafta, M., & Berda, Y. (2020, April 19). Pandemic panopticon: Israeli surveillance during COVID-19. Retrieved from https://www.aljazeera.com/programmes/listeningpost/2020/04/pandemic-panopticon-israeli-surveillance-covid-19-200418090128636.html.

Najib, M. & Halbfinger, D.M. (2020, April 9). Palestinians Fear a Coming Coronavirus Storm. Retrieved from https://www.nytimes.com/2020/04/09/world/middleeast/coronavirus-palestinians-israel-gaza-west-bank.html.

Nassar, T. (2020, April 2). Palestinian released from Israeli jail has coronavirus. Retrieved from https://electronicintifada.net/blogs/tamara-nassar/palestinian-released-israeli-jail-has-coronavirus.

Nimeh, A.A. & Sawafta, A. (2020, March 25). Palestinians leave jobs in Israel, citing coronavirus risk. Retrieved from https://www.reuters.com/article/us-health-coronavirus-israel-palestinian/palestinians-leave-jobs-in-israel-citing-coronavirus-risk-idUSKBN21C282.

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2022-05-14

Ask Jon 16 – American Exceptionalism: or, “You don’t know everything.”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/07

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about American exceeptionlism.

*Interview conducted on August 3, 2020.*

—

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay! This is another Ask Jon. You wanted to talk about the concept or the claim of American exceptionalism. A) What is American exceptionalism typically directed towards? B) What are some obvious critiques?

Jonathan Engelman: We should talk about what it is. American exceptionalism is a belief held by many Americans that the United States is somehow – with a religious orientation to it, and a political one too – having God anointing America the greatest country ever and, therefore, then it shall always be so. Many Americans believe it. Many Americans are afraid to say that they don’t believe it.

You would find it hard to see a politician say it. I will say it because I am not looking for everyone’s vote. But with the idea of America as always great and as always the best is, from the point of non-Americans, is arrogant and conceited, if you look at it from the view of an American, it is arrogant and conceited, foolish and wrong, but also dangerous. I think it is dangerous because it brings an air of complacency. That, somehow, the United States is untouchable.

Because we will always be great because that is the way that it is, then you don’t have to look at your faults, get better, improve as a society. That’s not true. We’re seeing this right now. The United States has handled Covid worse than anywhere else in the world. Trump and others tell us that we’re handling it better. There’s a receptive audience for him.

They will believe this without evidence and, in fact, contrary to what they see with their own eyes if they will only open them and take a look. Yet, they will believe it, because he says, ‘America is the best.’ So, they think, “America is the best.” You see this happening with Covid while having a ridiculous death rate, which is not going away.

That concept, again, has some religious overtones, as to how it developed, but that concept is very dangerous to us as a country. I was reading something, recently, about the view of the United States from foreign countries from around the world.

There was a time when the United States, for years, has been alternately hated, envied, and admired. Now, we’re being pitied. Just wrap you head about that, Americans who believe in our inherent exceptionalism. We’re being pitied by the rest of the world.

You are really a disgrace. But that’s the concept. That’s what a lot of people believe. You go back. People talk about the Founding Fathers of this country, as if they were gods. They weren’t gods. In fact, many of them were deists. They believed some creator started the world, but believed that’s it. It is all humans. Most importantly, deists believe that everything that you see on Earth has a reasonable, logical, and scientific explanation.

No supernatural explanation, they do not believe God is doing anything to direct affairs of human beings. Remember that the Founding Fathers of this country, I do not even like the sound of that phrase because it sounds so godly. They borrowed quite a bit from Enlightenment thinkers in Europe. They were very open about it. Jefferson was open about it. Hamilton was open about it.

They learned and borrowed from Enlightenment thinkers about it. Today, you have Americans saying, ‘The Founding Fathers brought the ideas originally,’ as if Moses coming down the mountain with the Ten Commandments. There’s no thought processes involved. It is very dangerous for our country. We are seeing how it is playing out here. We have got to get with the program.

We have one shot. It comes in November. For us to get back on track, with an understanding that the United States is only one country in the world, we have allies who pursue many of the same values, at least generally, that we do, which are liberal democratic society values believing in human rights, believing in basic freedoms, believing in justice and a system of justice.

And that we need to coordinate and be a part of that community. We need to advance those values, which under Trump we have stopped doing. We don’t seem to care much about values like justice and human rights. This is what we will need to do to rebuild our country. But we have got to think about this from the standpoint of “we have a lot of work to do.” It won’t happen magically because we are the United States of America.

We have seen how this virus has exposed that our infrastructure is crumbling and needs to be repaired. It has exposed that our healthcare system, if you can call it that, leaves too many people behind. It is going to be one of the big questions moving forward; obviously, only if, we get rid of Trump. What are we going to do moving forward to learn our lessons that we should be learning to grow from this crisis? To learn and grow, you have to acknowledge that you don’t know everything.

Jacobsen: Sir, thank you.

Engelman: Alright, Scott, take care of yourself.

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2022-05-14

Ask Gary 1 – What is Humanists International?

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/07

Here we talk about the #HumanistsAtRisk campaign, #EndBlasphemyLaws campaign, and the annual report.

*Interview conducted on August 7, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You are the Chief Executive for Humanists International, formerly International Humanist and Ethical Union, which is a major international humanist body. E talk about the Humanists At Risk campaign, the End Blasphemy Laws campaign, and the annual report. All three are touchstones and important for an international secular community. What is the Humanists At Risk campaign?

Gary McLelland: Thank you, Scott, the Humanists At Risk campaign is something that we launched in 2017. At that time, we were receiving an increasing number of requests from humanists and atheists around the world who were looking to relocate through letters of support for asylum to national authorities, or money support. Over the years, the number of requests have gone up over the years. The number of requests that we have received have gone up every year. To the end of 2019, we received about 96 requests.

As of this year, we’ve received – 2020 – over 100 already. That’s more than double in the space of the year. Over 2020, we have been able to hire a full time Humanists At Risk Coordinator. Her name is Emma Wadsworth-Jones. She’s fantastic. She joined us from PEN International, the writer’s charity, where she ran the Writer’s At Risk program. She has a lot of experience in helping people targeted for artistic expression

Often, those people are the same s humanists. There is an overlapping Venn diagram of human rights campaigns with an intersect with humanist campaigner, LGBT campaigner, democratic rights campaigner, artistic expression campaigner. If you understand the values underpinning humanism, it isk not a surprise that this is the case. Emma brings a wealth of experience. Overt he past few months since she started, we have instituted guidelines and rank the level of urgency of cases.

Even with saying what I’ve said, we are still a small organization with 8u members in the staff. It is difficult to maintain. We don’t ave that much money. Our annual budget is under half of a million U.S. dollars per year. It is hard to prioritize the monies. It means saying, “No,” which is not easy sometimes. We published an article on the Humanists International website today about how we provide the support and a breakdown of the ages and locations of the people and the countries that they come from.

It is something that we have been doing. We have been working with a range of partners behind the scenes. We have been looking to introduce a trusted partners scheme to flag individual cases and governments, and NGOs, to fast-track them for funding. Hopefully, this will help us to get them the help that they need.

One of the ones that I worth mentioning is the emblematic case of Mubarak Bala, the President of the Humanists Association of Nigeria. He was detained on the 28^th of April. Yesterday, on the 6^th of August, he has been detained for 100 days without trial, without charge, or contact for the lawyer, in spite of a court instruction or court order for the lawyer to have access. It is still not being granted by the police.

That is still emblematic of what we’re dealing with. It is important that Mubarak’s case is getting the attention. But it is still not enough. We have 100 or more cases without nearly this attention. As you know, there are also many cases that we can’t talk about; there are so many amazingly brave people in very brave circumstances that we know about but can’t talk about, because this would put them more at risk to be affiliated with an organization like ours.

It’s heartbreaking. There are some times that you make good progress on cases. This is one of the more difficult cases of the work for sure.

Jacobsen: Some of them get into trouble for particular reasons. This leads to the next campaign. What is the End Blasphemy Laws campaign?

McLelland: So, the End Blasphemy Laws campaign is a coalition that we lead and started back in 2015. Humanist Canada was one of the founding members of the End Blasphemy Laws campaign. It is a global coalition of humanist and other organizations. It comes together on this single issue of blasphemy laws and tries to make the coherent and easy argument: Blasphemy laws in themselves as bad, inherently bad, and don’t make sense, are inconsistent with principles of free speech and critical inquiry. Often, they are used in a discriminatory way against people who are minorities including humanists, atheists, and minority religious beliefs.

Ahmadiyya Muslims, Christians in Pakistan, etc., we have had charges of blasphemy against ex-Muslims in Britain. There was a case in Britain. But it has been repealed in Britain, as in Canada. As it was, it was understood to only apply to the Church of England or the majority historical religion, as it is around the world. It is meant to protect “incumbent interests” [Laughing].

This is a number of problems. One of them you’ve noted, which is humanist campaigners whose inherent expression and values can seem blasphemous. But also, it is for people who are progressive reformers within religious groups. Their views can be seen as heretical or beyond the pale, according to orthodox religious beliefs. That’s very dangerous, but very dangerous in a different category than atheists and humanists expressing themselves because we know that big ideas like religion.

They only reform and liberalize, and move forward, because of the courage of individuals to speak out and question taboos and orthodoxies. History is littered with victims who tried to do that in the past to varying levels of success. Blasphemy laws are a blockage in that process of group questioning and openness in ideology. That’s the End Blasphemy Laws campaign. It has a more succinct page, much more succinct than my explanation.

What we do, on that website, we record every country that had a blasphemy law at 2015 or onwards and every country that has repealed its blasphemy law in 2015 or onwards. You’ll see a colour coded map of green and then varying darknesses of red, according to whether it has been repealed and the harshness of the punishments up to 8 countries in which it is a capital offense. That is the End Blasphemy Laws campaigns as a coalition founded in 2015 with mainly humanist organizations.

We have updated it, added some new branding. What we’re doing at the moment is contacting other NGOs, even religious organizations, we have an idea that we want to make this idea much more broad-based. We genuinely think that the issue of blasphemy is one that can unite basically every right-thinking person. There’s no reason.

I should state. Many rights organizations are against blasphemy laws. Most religious organizations that I’ve spoken to realize that when they’re in the minority; they’re against blasphemy laws. As I said, sometimes, the majority or incumbent position make it more difficult. Especially in Western countries, when religion is becoming less and less influential, they see their trappings of establishment and state support as something that they need to hold onto in a defensive way.

However, the Church of England will support the right of Christians in Pakistan to practice without fear of blasphemy accusations. Of course, they will, and so on and so forth. We’re trying to appeal to religious NGOs to join our campaign to eliminate blasphemy laws.

Jacobsen: Lastly, the annual report, what can we expect?

McLelland: Yes, our annual report is strange because we run our reporting years January to December, which is not unusual. However, our AGM is held at various times throughout the year, not at a regular time each year, because we move the AGM around the world. You have hemispheric differences and cultural differences, etc. The AGM floats around the year from March to November. [Laughing] So, since we’re having a late AGM this year, it means that probably some time in August or September; we’re going to publish the 2019 report.

It is going to look very out of date. However, this year’s repot will look at humanists at risk because, partly, the reviewing and recapping the year of 2019. One of the big things for me, personally, and for the organization was the persecution of Gulalai Ismail who is one of our board members. She was detained in October 2018 on her way home from a board meeting in London. It will always strike me as one of the weird moments in life.

We had been out for dinner in London, trendy nice place. We had a nice dinner and three days of very intense discussions at the board meeting, enjoying and relaxing conversation. Gulalai is my friend. To get the call on the Monday/Tuesday morning on WhatsApp, she was being detained by the Pakistani intelligence services. I received a bunch of rambling calls and then some voice notes that she had been recording secretly under the desk when she was being interrogated.

From that point on, it was incommunicado for almost a year. That was a very difficult moment because I think it was the juxtaposition from being out and enjoying a meal in London to a few days later being detained without any information by the authorities in Pakistan. It was very, very difficult. Everyone in the organization was working incredibly hard alongside other organizations to get contacts, briefing people, and getting people in government to give statements of support.

In December of 2019, she made it safely to the U.S., where she claimed asylum. It was an incredible thing. However, that was an experience for us. It made us realize that if we are going to support humanists at risk like Gulalai or Mubarak; we need to do it seriously, because, in the past, the support was provided on an ad hoc basis

It was staff working on this as an adjunct to their workday rather than dedicated staff positions. One downside is lacking a development of specialized skills. People asked for legal advice. We were anxious to give legal advice to people in those dire legal circumstances because you want to make sure that it is correct. We decided in 2018 to make more support for it, which is the reason fro more funding and staff. 2018 made us aware of it.

It precipitated a bit of the moving around of the staff and some of the things to make this position possible. That’s one thing. Another thing, in 2019, we reported a 79% increase in our financial income based on 2018, which is quite a significant one. As an organization and as a movement, we are doing a lot of really good work to stabilize and grow our financial position and to professionalize. This is really good. At the same time, we have managed to more than 10x increase the amount given in growth and development.

We managed to give out around 10,000 pounds in 2018. In 2019, we gave out more than 100,000 pounds. This is wholly in grants, not staff costs. We talking about monies given to other organizations from us for capacity building and other things. With a small budget, we have been able to squeeze a lot of good outcomes out of it.

Of course, I hope this report will reassure members that we are spending their money in the best way that we can, like development agencies or government agencies, that Humanists International is an organization doing good work to protect human rights defenders and protect good liberal values as well as being an organization that they can partner with or fund.

So, that’s my advertisement.

Jacobsen: Gary, thank you.

McLelland: My pleasure.

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2022-05-14

Conversation with John Dugard, Richard Falk, and S. Michael Lynk on the Role of the Special Rapporteur, and the International Criminal Court & Jurisdiction

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/06

As far as I know, this is the first live group conversation between Professor John Dugard, Professor Richard Falk, and Professor S. Michael Lynk. As such, the subject matter became narrowed to the positions held by Dugard, Falk, and Lynk, and the current context before the International Criminal Court regarding jurisdiction.

Professor John Dugard is the Fmr. (4th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 (2001 to 2008). He is Professor Emeritus at the Universities of Leiden and the Witwatersr, who remains one of the most important legal and investigative voices in the history of rights and law reportage for the United Nations on this issue of Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories.

Professor Richard Falk is the Fmr. (5th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 (26 March 2008 – 8 May 2014). Professor Falk is Albert G. Milbank Professor of International Law and Practice, Emeritus, at Princeton University, the Director of the Climate Change Project, and an Advisor on the POMEAS Project in the Istanbul Policy Center at Sabanci University. He is widely revered as one of the great legal minds in the world today, especially on the issue of Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories, and reviled in other circles as well.

Their – Dugard’s, Falk’s, and Lynk’s – importance in the legal and rights history of this subject matter cannot be understated. In many ways, they set the tone and calibre of human rights and international humanitarian law reportage to this day. As well, this exists as a conversation with the current United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 and two of the former special rapporteurs. The position of the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 isn’t, and shouldn’t, be taken lightly based the depth and length of the human rights issue, and on the level and extent of state and other actions one can encounter against oneself in the position devoted to this long-standing human rights catastrophe seen on the Israel-Palestinian issue. With great pleasure and honour, I present the extensive and narrowed live group conversation with Professors Dugard, Falk, and Lynk.

Here we talk about the role of the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 and the International Criminal Court in regards to jurisdiction.

*Interview conducted on May 1, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, let’s begin, this is a 4-way conversation with John Dugard, Richard Falk, and S. Michael Lynk discussing some narrow topics concluding on the International Criminal Court jurisdiction question based on some recent news put out by Fatou Bensouda. Starting with John, beginning, how do you view your prior role as a special rapporteur?

Professor John Dugard: I placed this question on the agenda because my role was so very different from both Richard and Michael because I was allowed to enter the occupied Palestinian territories. So, my role was that of a factfinder. I visited the occupied Palestinian territories twice a year for ten days each. I spent all of the time travelling around the country visiting not only the cities, but also the rural areas and taking evidence from people whose homes had been destroyed. In 2002, for instance, I was shown the beginnings of the Wall. There were stones marking the beginning of the Wall. I alerted the United Nations that the Wall was about to be constructed. My role was very much that of a fact finder on the ground. My reports were, in large measure, reporting what I had seen, and what conversations I had had with ordinary people in both urban and rural areas. Of course, I saw the political leaders too. I had access to the leaders of the Palestinian Authority. Yasser. Arafat gave me an open door as most foreign diplomats were boycotting him at the time. He was delighted to see me. Many members of the small communities I visited liked to see me as representing the United Nations. They tended to believe that I could remedy their situations. I always felt it embarrassing because many Palestinians believed I could change their lives but I could not. The United Nations was fairly oblivious to the reports from me. I also saw my role as that of advocacy, which I suspect is the way Michael and Richard have seen their roles. I reported on the violation of human rights and international humanitarian law. I argued strongly that the occupied Palestinian territory was subject to a system of apartheid. So, this was my role, as I saw it.

Jacobsen: Richard, how about yourself?

Professor Richard Falk: I did my best to continue in the spirit very successful tenure as Special Rapporteur. I had the disadvantage from, more or less, the outset of being a target of opposition by the governments of Israel and of the United States, and by the fiercely Zionist NGOs in Geneva and New York. This produced a situation in which my first attempt to enter, as John had done previously without incident, the occupied Palestinian territories resulted in my expulsion, and detainment in a prison near Ben Gurion airport. It seemed clearly, not so much a personal attack on me but, a signal to the United Nations that if they appointed someone to whom Israel had objections, there would be adverse consequences, including signals of non-cooperation. They objected to me from the outset. Not only would they refuse to cooperate with the United Nations, but they would make life as difficult as possible for whoever tried to carry out this investigative role on behalf of a UN agency, which they were bound by treaty to respect. My expulsion was at the time a particularly newsworthy event that surprised UN officials because we had submitted our itinerary to the Israel ambassador in Geneva advance without encountering opposition. Visas had been granted to the two people accompanying me. So, the people in Geneva were convinced that I would have no trouble entering Israel for purposes of carrying out the UN mission. As I had been so viciously attacked when appointed, I was more skeptical and hesitant to come from California only to be expelled. So, I am convinced that my impression is correct– Israel wanted to send a signal of non-cooperation with the United Nations to the extent that individuals perceived as critics who were appointed to be Special Rapporteurs in the occupied Palestinian territories would encounter endless difficulties. As a result, my missions were lacking the direct experience with people and conditions on the ground in occupied Palestine that were such an important aspect of John’s contributions. In contrast, I, and Michael after me, was confined to the neighbouring countries. I listened to the testimony to those who resided outside Palestine, or could cross the border and meet with me in Jordan, Egypt, and Lebanon.

My tenure coincided with the Arab Spring that unfolded in my last few years as SR. After the peaceful overthrow of the Mubarak government in 2011, it became theoretically possible to enter Gaza by way of Egypt, although obstacles of various sort remained. After several failed attempts, I managed to do this in 2012. It was the only time during the six years that I was able to set foot in the occupied Palestinian territories as a representative of the UN. This was my only experience of direct access to the occupied Palestinian territories. I had been throughout the occupied territories previously in my role as academic and public intellectual, but never while I was Special Rapporteur. To reiterate, my contribution substantively was an endeavor to continue the work John initiated so effectively. My central intention, aside from reporting on development bearing on human rights, was to alter somewhat, the parameters of discourse on the occupied Palestinian territories within the United Nations and among civil society NGOs. I reinforced John’s influential characterizing of the situation in Palestine by indirect, although explicit reference to apartheid, not as in South African but as descriptive of the manner by which the West Bank was being administered under occupation. John also introduced the concept of settler-colonialism to describe the overall relationship between Israelis and Palestinians living under occupation. Combined with some subsequent developments with which I was involved, the allegation of apartheid became normalized in discussion of the essential nature of the occupation. It was a more realistic way of talking about the relations of Jews and Arabs. This was a change in mainstream debate. Previously charges of apartheid were rarely encountered outside of radical student activism supporting the Palestinian. Even when I became SR it was not acceptable to refer to apartheid within diplomatic circles when talking about Israeli wrongdoing as an occupying power within the provenance of public international law. The United Nations has an unappreciated role as legitimating certain ways of describing controversial situations. This role continues to have an impact during the period that Michael has been dealing with so effectively. It is what I have written about in the past under the heading of ‘legitimacy wars,’ which are often resolved in the meeting rooms of the UN rather than on the battlefield.

Professor S. Michael Lynk: As you can tell, I do my work on the shoulders of two giants. Both in human rights law, generally, and as special rapporteurs who were exemplary in their analysis with respect to what was happening in the occupied Palestinian territories. I, like Richard, have been granted access to the occupied Palestinian territories. Unlike Richard, I do not even get to go to Gaza. Any requests made to get to Gaza through Egypt has been strongly discouraged by the United Nations and by Egypt with respect as to how to travel across the Sinai with respect to the unstable security situation there. So, I go once a year to Amman (Jordan) and a number of officials from the Palestinian Authority, the various United Nations offices in the occupied Palestinian territories, and various Israeli and Palestinian human rights groups will meet me, in Amman. Or, I will Skype them. I am also constantly in touch with a number of civil society organizations in Israel and Palestine, regionally and internationally, with respect to their analysis of what is happening in the situation. Often, I have said to people who talk about my inability to enter the occupied Palestinian territories.

I have two answers. I lived there six months a long time ago in 1989 working for the United Nations during the first Palestinian Intifada working out of Jerusalem while going to all of the refugee camps. I have a feel for the topography and the human rights conditions there, albeit somewhat dated. Secondly, I have kept constantly in touch with that since; I think Richard and John would agree with this. There is probably no long-lasting conflict in the world that is as so well covered, so well reported upon, and so well advocated about by civil society as the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. While my Plan A, as with all of us, would have been to spend time in the occupied Palestinian territories, a close Plan B has been to work with the civil society organizations to give me the benefits of their advocacy and to use it, which I use throughout all my reports, comments, and statements. It means, I think, that the human rights situation, which I can work on today, is reflective of the events on the ground in Israel and Palestine with respect to the occupied Palestinian territories.

Falk: One point, I have to mention. One advantage I had as a result of not being able to get to the occupied Palestinian territories and thus spending time each year in Egypt, Jordan, and elsewhere in the region, was the opportunity to meet several Hamas leaders. It was interesting because of their way of expressing their condemnation of the human rights situations in Gaza and the West Bank, coupled with their seemingly strong support for negotiating a long-term ceasefire lasting up to 50 years. Unlike public dismissal of Hamas as nothing more than a terrorist wing of the Palestinian struggle I found the individuals I met with to be thoughtful, informed, and given to reasonable proposals that moved in the direction of a peaceful resolution, not of the ultimate disposition of Palestine, but of working toward some alternative to the confrontational relationship that has existed, especially in Gaza ever since 2006 elections, which were followed by a harsh and unlawful blockade that has lasted almost 13 years and further inflamed by periodic massive military incursions and almost continuous military harassment.. These contacts were important for me, personally. It enabled me to understand more fully the complexities shaping the overall politics of the situation, which included, at that time, sharp tensions between the Palestinian Authority leadership and the Hamas leadership, and a resultant international projection of Palestinian disunity.

Dugard: To Richard and Michael, did you have any difficulties meeting with the leaders of Hamas from the perspective of the United Nations? I say this because when I was in Gaza on one occasion I met with the Prime Minister of Gaza, Ismail Haniyeh, the head of Hamas in the territory at that time. There were strong objections from the United Nations based on meeting an official from Hamas. It was the policy of the United Nations not to speak to a leader of Hamas. I ignored this. I was surprised the United Nations tried to pressure me not to meet with the leader of Hamas.

Falk: I did not seek permission from the UN, and the meetings were arranged outside of my itinerary at the initiative of Hamas, and were not reported on in my official presentations at the UN. I do not recall direct objections from the United Nations. There was strong pushback from the Palestinian Authority. They tried to suppress my early reports. They urged me to resign too. They spread some rumours about my non-existent medical problems, which were supposedly preventing me from carrying out the work of the mandate – and a series of other things. My problem resulting from the meetings, which were as I say informal meetings. Unlike John, I did not try to meet the formal leadership in Gaza although I had some friendly and helpful contact during my 2012 visit. I did meet with Mashal, who was, in some ways, at that time, considered the most important Hamas leader, but this happened in Doha where I was a speaker at a conference, and not in any way part of my work as SR. There was a second person in Cairo who was considered, at least, as important as Haniyeh, who was the actual lead administrator in Gaza. The United Nations people accompanying me did not try to interfere with these meetings. Also, it would not be accurate to say that, they encouraged them.

Lynk: I have not had the opportunity to go to Gaza in my capacity as the special rapporteur. I have not met with Hamas nor had to seek a meeting with Hamas. In my dealings with respect to Gaza, I am exclusively dealing with either Israeli or Palestinian civil society organizations. I have not tried to reach out to Hamas.

Falk: In my case, they reached out to me. I did not have to take the initiative. They arranged rather complicated logistical ways of making contact, particularly in Cairo, and in Qatar while I was in Doha.

Jacobsen: John, what was the main focus when entering into the special rapporteur role during tenure?

Dugard: My primary role was that of factfinder. I was the special rapporteur during the Second Intifada. I was, to a large extent, caught up in much of the violence when I visited the occupied Palestinian territories. I attempted to report on what I had seen there. My focus of attention in the West Bank was largely on the construction of settlements and the demolition of houses, especially for political reason. The restrictions of movement were particularly severe during the Second Intifada. When I was in Gaza, there were still Israeli settlements there at the time. I spent a lot of time speaking to Palestinians who had complaints about settlers and talking to people who had been subjected to violence. On one occasion when I visited an UNRWA school in Gaza city I listened to the counselling of young girls whose friends has been shot in one of the many of IDF attacks on Gaza city. My focus was on international humanitarian law in respect of the attacks on civilians and civilian targets, and then, in the West Bank, on settlements and demolition of houses and restriction of people’s movement.

Jacobsen: Richard, when gathering that baton, what was the central focus carrying forward for you?

Falk: It was not much different from John. However, I did not have much occasion for direct witnessing or experiencing conditions on the ground. Similarly to Michael, the way I gathered information was to make comprehensive use of public sources and accessible knowledgeable persons in relation to the main issues in tension. In this period, 2008 to 2014, there were two major military incursions, 2008/09 and 2012, into Gaza. (the 2014 incursion, perhaps the most devastating of the three occurred after my term expired in May), which were very important international developments with all kinds of ramifications for the way in which security was being pursued by Israel, and perceived internationally. After 2005, in Gaza, there was a big dispute as to whether the Israeli disengagement meant Israel no longer was in a position under international humanitarian law of being an occupying state (“Occupying Power”). I tried to address this by agreeing with the international and United Nations consensus that concluded that the idea and implementation of ‘disengagement’ did not alter the status of Israel as the Occupying Power with its attendant legal responsibilities. Elaborate assessments about the degree of effective control Israel exercised over activities both within Gaza and at the border that rigidly regulated the entry and exit of people and goods, as well as exerting direct control over Gaza airspace and access to Gaza from the sea.

So if on balance, the intrusion on the normal existence of the population living in Gaza was greater after this disengagement in 2005, which was mispresented, in my view, to the international community as a step toward peace and the failure to achieve a peaceful relationship with Gaza. It was more like, in my judgment, a flagrant and continuous violation of Article 33 of the Fourth Geneva Convention that unconditionally prohibited ‘collective punishment.’ There were disputes about the rockets. Were the rockets retaliatory? Were the rockets fired at the initiative of Hamas and provocative in that way? Were Israeli responses proportionate and discriminatory? In any event, the indiscriminate firing of rockets and other weapons by both side definitely violated international humanitarian law, but were not a fraction as damaging as the massive incursion of 2008/09 by Israel that led to the “Goldstone Report”; that was a very controversial phase in how to view Israeli and Hamas accountability during that period of the military incursion in 2008/09. I was rather involved with the controversy over the interpretation of the “Goldstone Report.” Again, I had trouble with the Palestinian Authority, which surprised me by objecting to my strong endorsement of the report and encouragement of the implementation of its recommendations. To my surprise and regret the PA was politically persuaded for tactical reasons to bury the report and not seek its implementation; this created problems for me as I was trying to exert what pressure I could, so as to have the recommendations of the report taken seriously. They included a potential reference to the international criminal court, which finally to have occurred ten years later, but still in a preliminary and inconclusive form.

Jacobsen: Michael, in your particular case, the one individual prior to you resigned. So, less of a smooth transition as from John to Richard inasmuch as one can have a “smooth transition” on this issue. Carrying forward on the legacy that they brought forward, what is the main focus now?

Lynk: To start off, my own appointment was controversial. It was raised in the Canadian Parliament. The Minister of Foreign Affairs had made several statements against my appointment. Even though, Canada has nothing to do with the appointment by the United Nations or by the Human Rights Council of the special rapporteur. To my great relief, both Richard and John were extremely supportive of my appointment and gave great advice during the early weeks and months of my appointment, and how to react to that. Also, the way to do the job. Whatever contributions I have made with respect to this, a great deal is owed to both the predecessors with respect to this (Richard and John). With respect to the role as the special rapporteur, there are two themes. One is what happens on the ground, in particular, with the respect to the events beginning in end of March in 2018 with Gaza with the Great March of Return and the shooting deaths of Israel troops at the Gaza frontier, including the shooting and killing of around 60 Palestinians around the middle of May of 2018. At that time, I was calling for the appointment, by the Human Rights Council, of a commission of inquiry. There was a special convening of the Council. At that point in time, after the shooting of the 60 Palestinian protestors, the High Commissioner of Human Rights made the same call. This was accepted.

The Commission of Inquiry released the report in February of 2019, which was a very strong report. I thought it was a very good report. Notwithstanding, the fact, I do not think any of the three commissioners had much of a background with respect to the Middle East about Gaza or the occupied Palestinian territories in general. They repeated the claim in the “Goldstone Report” in 2009 and the “Davis Report” in 2015 about lifting the siege on Gaza. All three reports made this present. The immediately retired Secretary-General of the United Nations made the call to lift the siege on Gaza. None of that has happened. While, I think, you may find polite statements emanating from Europe, there was not effective pressure on Israel by the international community to do anything about the full state of the living conditions in Gaza caused overwhelmingly by the siege. The other point or theme in the work is to try to locate aspects of the occupation and provide them a legal framework within international human rights law and international humanitarian law. My report in October, 2017, dealt with the concept of illegal occupation. At some point, an occupation may be legal. I would leave this to the historians to decide at what point the red line may be crossed. Surely, now, an occupation has been on for five decades with every sign given by the Occupying Power; it intends to annex all or some of the occupied Palestinian territories is surely a violation of international law.

Also, I have issued reports in 2018 on annexation. Both the illegal framework and the events on the ground. Most recently, in October, 2019, I focused on the issue of accountability or the duties owed diplomatically, politically, and, particularly, legally to unite or bring to an end an obvious hotspot with respect to human rights violations. What we see, this is what both Richard and John would have confronted during their tenures as special rapporteurs and continuing into mine. The international community will, sometimes, be willing to make rebukes of Israel’s behaviour or conduct in the occupation, or plans to further entrench in its claim of sovereignty in the occupied Palestinian territories while no willingness to do anything about it. There is criticism without consequences; there are resolutions without rebukes. It always astonishes me. The international community, particularly, with respect to Europe could bring about wide sanctions in regard to Russia and its annexation of Crimea in 2014, but can do nothing and remains paralyzed with respect to a much smaller country and over an issue with worldwide attention. So, this, I think, has become the issue of the day for all of the illegal steps Israel has taken and, now, plans to take; to what degree will the international community, particularly the most powerful players, want to hold Israel to account.

Falk: I want to make one point, which, I think, is important. The focus on the emergent unlawfulness of the occupation. There is a real deficiency in international humanitarian law, which does not put a time limit on the temporal extent of occupation. I argued during my mandate that prolonged occupation is incompatible with the underlying objectives of international humanitarian law. I received very little support for these contentions despite trying my best to get the International Committee of the Red Cross to back a call for reform. The ICRC did not want to touch the international humanitarian law framework, or be seen as engaging with controversial criticisms of Israel’s behavior. It is a real deficiency of the international humanitarian claims made on behalf of the Geneva Conventions. Occupied Palestine has endured five decades or more of occupation reducing the population to a condition of rightlessness and still allow this to remain subject to such an abusive form of militarized administration and, as Michael points out, to be further victimized further by Israel’s annexationist intentions; both de facto annexation by imposing control in a variety of ways, e.g., the settlements, the Wall, and other measures, and, now, a fallacious de jure push for annexation with a strong geopolitical green light given by the United States Trump Administration.

Jacobsen: I want to take this into fewer individuated responses and more groups discussions. What do you consider the main issues confronting Palestine now?

Dugard: I think; we would all agree. The main issue facing Palestine is the very real threat that Israel will annex large portions of the West Bank, a portion of Area C, and the Jordan Valley. We have to focus on this. We must distinguish between de jure annexation, as happened in the case of East Jerusalem and may happen in the case of the West Bank, and de facto annexation. It is really clear that over the last few decades, Israel has, in effect, been extending its authority over the West Bank in such a manner that it has annexed large portions of the West Bank. So, this is the reason for liking Michael’s focus on the illegality of the occupation. It is clear to me that this is not an ordinary occupation. It is one rendered illegal by reason of the prolonged nature of the occupation, as Richard pointed out, and the acts taken by the Israeli government such as the construction of settlements, the Wall, the establishment of the system of apartheid, and, overall, an annexation de facto and de jure of large portions of Palestine. This should be our principal focus at present.

Falk: I would completely agree with the statements by John. I would only add that a secondary focus seems, to me, a recognition of the non-viability of a two-state outcome to any future diplomacy. The extent of de facto annexation and the whole way in which Israel has taken advantage of the occupation makes the prospect of a viable, independent sovereign Palestine state no longer a feasible political project, and it may never have been a desirable solution. This is why I have been emphasizing, since I ended my role as Special Rapporteur, the importance of dismantling the apartheid structures by which the Palestinian people as a whole have been both victimized and subjugated within the occupation and beyond the occupation through fragmentation of their identity as a unified people. So, I participated in a study under the auspices of ESCWA (2017), which examined apartheid in relation to the claim of Israel practices and policies subjugating the entire Palestinian people to an apartheid regime. I know John has some differences with the enlarged view of the relevance of the apartheid analysis. His South African lineage gives him a special authority to talk on it, not only authority, but experience to speak about it. In our academic study for ESCWA, we were convinced that Israel was responsible for deliberate political fragmentation of the Palestinian people as a principle mode of discriminatory subjugation. Unless, apartheid is dismantled as a precondition for racial peace, as was the peacemaking process in South Africa itself. Until the Afrikaner leadership decided to dismantle Apartheid and release Nelson Mandela as a signal of the genuineness of its intention, there was no genuine prospect of reforming this kind of system in some gradualistic way through incremental measures. In other words, thinking constructively about real peace for the two people, for Jews and for Palestinians, it depends, in my judgment, on the centrality of apartheid as an obstacle to a solution more fundamental than even the continuing occupation of the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza.

Lynk: I may build on it. I may be anticipating something you are going to ask us, Scott, which is the Trump plan. It encapsulates everything that has gone wrong over the last 20-30 years in the making of peace in the Middle East. The Trump plan, in my view, changes everything and changes nothing. It changes everything; in that, it is a crack, a substantial crack, maybe, a fatal crack in the continuation of the Oslo process. That there would be a two-state solution in the end. No matter the difficulties of the international community would have in bringing two recalcitrant leaderships to this. More fundamentally, it changes nothing. It is the formal blessing by the American patron of this peacemaking process of the culmination of separation. What both Richard and John have described as apartheid in the making, it, probably, shows how ineffectual the international community, particularly the most powerful players, have been in trying to hold a flicker of hope. That some strong American bias towards Israel’s position, acting as Israel’s lawyer – as has often been reported, would result in a satisfactory solution for the Palestinians. This is what the Trump plan has brought to an end. It, certainly, appears little hope exists for a two-state solution. The only hope is a one-state apartheid reality or a one-state democratic reality. That’s where, I think, the future is going to lie.

Jacobsen: Some of the remarks by Gideon Levy and Norman Finkelstein have been on a lack of viability of a two-state solution or settlement to the issue or the conflict.

Dugard: Richard remarked on the apparent disagreement on the scope of apartheid. I have always taken the position that if one looks at the definition of apartheid in the Rome Statute, it is a very narrow definition. It would not cover discrimination against Palestinians in Israel itself and in the diaspora because the element of gravity is probably lacking. I am looking at this from the point of view of international criminal law and the jurisdiction of the International Criminal Court. Whereas, Richard has looked at this from the broader perspective of apartheid in general. That’s how I see it. It is important to stress that the International Criminal Court has the issue of apartheid before it and the Prosecutor clearly feels uncomfortable with this referral on the part of Palestine. Although, she is clearly prepared to accept jurisdiction, she seems determined to restrict crimes to war crimes and not crimes against humanity, which would include the question of apartheid. The reason for this is, frankly, the West, particularly the European Union, is opposed to the suggestion Israel practices apartheid if only in the occupied Palestinian territories. One has to work hard to persuade the Western states on this score We are facing a situation of apartheid, which is very similar to what happened in South Africa and, in many respects, is worse.

Jacobsen: Any final thoughts on this particular subject matter before the final question?

Falk: I would briefly reiterate my view of the scope of apartheid. Also, the sense that a more imaginative jurisprudence would incorporate the deliberate Israeli policy of fragmentation as a mode of racist subjugation into its understanding of apartheid and, thereby, extend the scope beyond occupation to the various domains within which the Palestinians have suffered, which looked at independently wouldn’t constitute apartheid. However, if you look at the fragmentation of the Palestinians as a whole which is what we did in our ESCWA study, then the fact that the Palestinian minority in Israel does not seem victimized by a compartmentalized view of apartheid, but it is indirectly being victimized to the extent that its national identity is part of a discriminated ethnicity subject to comprehensive repressive control. It is very important to conceptualize apartheid that include this Israeli combination of discriminatory subjugation and fragmentation of all Palestinians, including refugees and involuntary exiles whose identity had previously been existentially actualized as a unity.

Dugard: I agree with you, Richard, entirely. However, the contextualization does not fall under the definition of apartheid in the Rome Statute. That is where the difference lies. I am looking at this from the perspective of the Rome Statute.

Falk: A more sociological jurisprudential interpretation supports my approach. In my view jurists less attached to positivist conceptions of law would have little difficulty arguing that the Rome Statute of the ICC can be interpreted in the way that I favor conceptualizing apartheid.

Dugard: Let us agree to differ and leave it at that.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Falk: Not the first time.

Jacobsen: The final question around the recent update, yesterday, through the International Criminal Court with the Chief Prosecutor Fatou Bensouda around commencing investigations into alleged crimes. Any thoughts on this, concisely?

Lynk: Start with John.

Falk: Maybe, John has the closest familiarity.

Dugard: Scott, I think, we all agree that the fact that the Prosecutor has reaffirmed the reasoning in her request for the pre-trial chamber to exercise her jurisdiction is encouraging. She was not persuaded by other state parties, in particular, as well as some powerful supporters of Israel who made submissions. By and large, I am very encouraged by the developments in the International Criminal Court at present.

Falk: I also feel encouraged by this dramatic development. I have not read the Chief Prosecutor’s response in any careful way. I note, she excludes the exclusive economic zone off the Gaza coast from the territory of Palestine, which seems, to me, to be a questionable interpretation of the responsibilities and rights of a territorial state. It leaves, in a kind of anarchic way, the situation of Palestinian fisherfolk, who fish beyond the territorial waters off Gaza and whose mistreatment by Israeli coastal patrols forms part of the grievances put forward to justify jurisdiction. It may not be the core issue. Yet it is a disappointing way of confining jurisdiction, but less so than the arbitrary refusal of the Prosecutor to include Crimes Against Humanity in her recommendation to open investigations.

Lynk: For me, I am more positive today than two days ago from the perspective of the pre-trial chamber regarding the territorial jurisdiction question. The fact that the Chief Prosecutor made such a strong statement, well-reasoned and very coherent, gives me a lot more optimism that this will turn out successfully. When you think of how few areas there are for accountability presently, there are accountability measures for the CERB. There are accountability measures regarding the database. Although, that is relatively weak with the actions of the International Court of Justice. The most important action would be a positive outcome of the International Criminal Court. This will take a long time to wind its way if the pre-trial chamber agrees with the arguments of the Chief Prosecutor. It does give hope that issues on Palestine and accountability will be positively dealt with by important international forums.

Jacobsen: Gentlemen, thank you for your time.

Lynk: Thank you very much, Scott.

Dugard: Thank you very much, Scott.

Falk: Thanks, Scott.

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2022-05-14

Extensive Interview with S. Michael Lynk – (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/08/04

Professor S. Michael Lynk is the current (7th) United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 (March, 2016 to Present). He is an Associate Professor at the Faculty of Law, Western University, in London, Ontario, who works in one of the most important legal and investigative positions in the history of rights and law reportage for the United Nations on this issue of Israel and the occupied Palestinian territories. As with the interviews with Professor Richard Falk (5th United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967) and Professor John Dugard (4th United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967), who held the positions prior to Lynk, this became another humbling experience because of the living reality of the human rights abuses Lynk investigates in a professional capacity. Their – Dugard’s, Falk’s, and Lynk’s – importance in the legal and rights history of this subject matter cannot be understated. In many ways, they set the tone and calibre of human rights and international humanitarian law reportage to this day. In addition, this exists as a conversation with the current, as opposed to a former, United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967. He has not been permitted access while the United Nations Special Rapporteur on the Situation of Human Rights in the Palestinian Territories Occupied since 1967 for first-person analysis of the human rights violations and breaches of international law in Israel and in the occupied Palestinian territories (the Gaza Strip, East Jerusalem, and the West Bank).

Here we talk about why he took this position, the very specialized form of human rights advocacy, what has happened to some in the past in the same position when they tried to get into relevant territories or nations, phrases including “occupied Palestinian territory” or “occupied Palestinian territories,” the Fourth Geneva Convention “Occupying Power” phrase and settler-colonial states, a Canadian national self-critical reflection or examination, United Nations report published on companies in illegal settlements, a short-term economic benefit from business finances and goods coming from Israeli settlement businesses, a trust or hope rather than stepwise extension of a solution, countries with settler-colonial histories, moves being made by the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court (Fatou Bensouda), the unlivability of the Gaza Strip in which 2,000,000 live, a global pandemic, attempts to simplify the entire Israeli-Palestinian issue or the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict to religion, advice given by Richard Falk and John Dugard, appropriate responses to both of those charges, the alliance of Benny Gantz of the Blue and White Party and Benjamin Netanyahu of the Likud, some of the violations that we’re seeing from Fatah, Hamas, or the Palestinian Authority, terms from Israel including “terror tunnels,” “Iron Dome, or “rockets,” the reality on the ground of the efficacy of the Iron Dome for Israel, etc., the “hugging” of international law, and some of the more robust authoritative organizations, authors, or speakers on the Israeli-Palestinian issue.

*Interview conducted on April 6, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This is the second U.N. Special Rapporteur interview, S. Michael Lynk. Let’s start with the length of time that you have been in this position, and why you took this position, I ask because this position has a checkered history in what comes at people when they do this very specialized form of human rights advocacy.

Professor S. Michael Lynk: I was voted unanimously to the position by the U.N. Human Rights Council in March of 2016. It is a 6-year unpaid position. So, I keep my day job as a Law Professor at Western University’s Faculty of Law, where I teach Labour Law and Constitutional Law. I will have been in the position for exactly four years on May 1, which is when the position officially started. As part of my work, I draft two substantive reports each year. I deliver them to the Human Rights Council in Geneva, Switzerland. I deliver the second to the U.N. General Assembly in New York, the Third Standing Committee of the General Assembly in New York. My reports are usually on specific themes. My report in 2019 in New York was on the issue of accountability and the responsibility of the international community to confront Israel with respect to its serial violations of human rights. My report in March 2019, a year ago, was on the Israeli exploitation of water and natural resources in the occupied Palestinian territories, which are forbidden to be done by an Occupying Power. I choose specific themes. I try to rely on work both the U.N. does, and work done by civil society. I have to say; my work is made an awful lot easier by the top-drawer civil society organizations, human rights organizations, that exist both in Israel and in Palestine, and internationally. Human Rights Watch and Amnesty International, activists and organizations in Europe, and human rights defenders – both Israelis and Palestinians, produce excellent reports, high-level advocacy. I sit on their shoulders in being able to write my reports to the international community.

Jacobsen: What has happened to some in the past in the same position when they tried to get into relevant territories or nations in the area to make sure that they can get the most accurate feel for the areas that they’re doing human rights reportage on?

Lynk: Sure, my prior two predecessors as Special Rapporteur; both were denied access by Israel into the occupied Palestinian territories. Richard Falk flew into Israel with an understanding that he was being permitted to enter and to go through a week or two-week long schedule visiting the occupied Palestine territories. He was arrested and detained overnight and sent back to North America. The same thing happened with my immediate predecessor. An Indonesian, Makarim Wibisono, who took the position with the presumption that Israelis would let him in. He resigned after 20 months because the Israelis would not let him in, and did not fulfill their promise. So, I’ve been obstructed in the ability to do my work. I think I would be able to do a better job if I was able to be let in and meet with Palestinians and Israelis, and with Israeli governments and with the Palestinian Authority as well, to do my work. But if I am not allowed in, as I am not, I have a pretty decent Plan B, which is to rely on the top-drawer work being done by civil society with their work and analyses, when I issue reports, commentary, and press releases on Israel and more specifically the occupied Palestinian territory.

Jacobsen: Following from the last phrase, “occupied Palestinian territory” or “occupied Palestinian territories,” as well as one of the earlier phrases “Occupying Power,” what is the contextualizations for those terms, for those who may not know when reading this?

Lynk: It is an important question that you ask. The world community has, since the West Bank, East Jerusalem, and Gaza Strip, among other territories, were occupied by Israel in the June 1967 war. The international community reflected through the United Nations has been very clear. In that, the Fourth Geneva Convention applies to these territories. The Fourth Geneva Convention is, of 1949, designed to protect civilians under occupied territory. It learned from the bitter lessons of the first and second world wars. That there has to be a detailed codified regime that spells out the extensive responsibilities that an Occupying Power has when they take a territory, not their own sovereign territory. These kinds of responsibilities focus on a range of issues. But the most important issue reflected in the Fourth Geneva Convention and in international humanitarian law is that an Occupying Power is simply a temporary sovereign over the territory. It gives the Occupying Power no right to annex even a square inch of the territory occupied. It must return the territory in as reasonable and as speedy a time as possible back to the people who are being occupied.

So, when we examine the very strict measures outlined in international humanitarian law and the Fourth Geneva Convention to how Israel has conducted its occupation. The international community has been very clear. There has been a range of violations of fundamental tenets of international law, including, obviously, the transfer or encouragement of civilian populations, Israeli-Jewish civilian populations, to settle in settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank and once upon a time in Gaza as well. Israel has annexed East Jerusalem and parts of the West Bank in 1967 and reaffirmed that in 1980. The annexation of East Jerusalem is illegal under international law. An Occupying Power cannot do that. The creation of 240 or so settlements in East Jerusalem or the West Bank, where approximately 650,000 to 680,000 Israeli settlers now live is illegal under international law. In fact, it has been a war crime for the last 20 years under the 1998 Rome Statute, which set up the International Criminal Court. The conduct of its occupation such as diverting water from the West Bank into Israel’s water resources, building quarries in the West Bank, using West Bank land to dump sewage and other environmental waste, the range of human rights violations through curfews, through the unequal treatment of Palestinians under occupation. There is a range of different violations that the international community, primarily through the United Nations have been identifying, those are the responsibilities given to me during my tenure as a Special Rapporteur: to comment on, to issue reports on, to investigate to the best of my ability, and to work with civil society and universities, and other international organizations to bring these human rights violations to an end.

Jacobsen: Some commentary will focus on the settler-colonialism. In the sense that, Israel will be defined, as per the Fourth Geneva Convention “Occupying Power” phrase, as a settler-colonial state. That’s a larger context and terminological issue of settler-colonialism. One of the ironies when colonialism was being discredited in the ‘30s and ‘40s. This was a time when Israel was formally being defined by its formal geographic boundaries and instantiated and then was passed off from the British to the United Nations, not necessarily in the cleanest of ways [Laughing]. So, this makes it one of the longest-standing human rights issues for the bureaucratic juggernaut known as the United Nations. Is this one of the last remnants of settler-colonialism from the 20^th-century into the 21^st?

Lynk: I am aware of the literature that talks about Israel being a settler-colonial society or a settler-colonial state. I’ve read a variety of commentary that, obviously, dates that beginning with the Balfour Declaration continuing to today. Certainly, wherever else that debate may lead us with Israel before 1967, Israel’s creation of settlements, colonies. The settlement and the encouragement of them, this has to be the biggest economic enterprises initiated by Israel. The creation of the 240 settlements in East Jerusalem and the West Bank, maintaining them, sustaining them, growing them. This would be a classic example of settler-colonialism. Settler-colonialism is the movement of people from the metropole, from usually a European nation. Although, in this case, it comes within Israel into the conquered or colonialized territory. In order [Laughing] not to benefit the Indigenous people being displaced, but in order to establish a colonial sovereign claim or an independent sovereign claim over that territory, certainly, when you look at the patterns of Dutch and British settlement in South Africa, British settlement in Rhodesia and in other parts of Africa, Spanish settlement in Latin and South America, these differ in some ways from what’s going on since 1917, particularly 1967. But I think there probably are different branches of the same tree going on. Certainly, I know in the academic literature on settler-colonialism. Israel’s settlement of colonies in East Jerusalem and the West Bank is commonly referred to as a classic modern example of a 20^th-century problem that was, by and large, done and resolved in the 20^th-century to allow colonies to become independent nations. You’re certainly right with respect to your location of timelines. Just at a time when decolonization was sweeping the world, particularly in the Caribbean, in Africa, and in Asia, in the 1960s and 1970s, Israel was launching upon a colonization project by initiating these settlements within a few months after it conquered the territories in the June, 1967 war.

Jacobsen: In terms of some of some of the war crimes, and the violation of the Fourth Geneva Convention mentioned before, how, as a national self-critical reflection or examination, is Canada complicit in this?

Lynk: There was once a quote from an unnamed – never got the name – Liberal Cabinet Minister who said, ‘We would aspire to be Israel’s best friend. We realize someone else has that title. I would be quite happy to be Israel’s second-best friend.’

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Lynk: Certainly, our policy since the 1940s with having a Canadian, the first dean of my law school actually, Ivan Rand, sitting on the United Nations Special Committee on Palestine in 1947, which recommended the partition of a very small country. Not only was the partition against the wishes of the majority Indigenous population at the time, it was also, even on the elements of partition, a very unfair partition with a third of the population assigned 56% of the territory, including some of the very best agricultural land and, certainly, most of the coastline. From Canada’s initial support in 1947, through Ivan Rand’s participation on the UNSCOP committee, to the 1947 vote in November of that year and Canada’s vote in favour of partition, to its early recognition of Israel, through or since 1967. Canada has been articulating a 15-year statement, it believes there should be a Palestinian and Israeli state. It believes in a two-state solution. It believes that there should be a Palestinian and Israeli state. That annexation and settlements are against the Fourth Geneva Convention and against international law. It won’t agree to any change in the boundaries, except for those agreed to by the parties. That statement is actually quite good.

But when you compare this to the Canadian actions, whether the United Nations General Assembly every year in the basket of resolutions that come up to vote every December by every Member (State) of the United Nations or others. Canada, beginning with Paul Martin’s regime, certainly, intensified under Stephen Harper and really left unchanged under Justin Trudeau. Our voting record has been to vote in a very tiny minority in 6 to 9 nations.

Jacobsen: Right.

Lynk: Israel, the United States, sometimes the Czech Republic, Canada, and then a handful of the island (Member) States in the Pacific that were once ruled by the United States: the Marshall Islands, for example, or Vanuatu. These countries are a very small minority who end up voting “No” to these resolutions. Even though, these resolutions offer a fair, balanced approach to wanting to solve the Israeli-Palestinian conflict in a manner that is consistent with international law. When our former Foreign Secretary, Minister of Foreign Affairs Chrystia Freeland, made an official visit to Israel in November of 2018, she spoke to the Israeli Council on Foreign Relations, a very prestigious body. Prime ministers, presidents, top diplomats, top academics, who are routinely invited to speak to that council. She delivered an address in Israel. It is a matter of public record, where she spoke about the relations between Israel and Canada. She was only a few kilometres from occupied Palestinian territory. She never used the word “occupation,” never criticized Israel for its settlement policy, or for its annexation. She was very brief in her speech, in the delivery of her speech, with respect a two-state solution. Essentially, what foreign ministers over the past 17 to 18 years have said in Canada, Conservative and Liberal alike, is to urge the parties to go back to the negotiating table. That’s the only solution they say.

It will not be achieved through the International Court of Justice (ICJ) or through the International Criminal Court (ICC), or through votes in the United Nations. It has always struck me as very similar to a policeman at a complaint entry desk at a police station having a battered woman, a battered wife, come in to complain about the beating that she is receiving from her husband or partner and asking for police action, and the police asking her to go back and settle things by herself. It has the very same ring to it. I think, in many ways, when Canada says it is a defender of human rights. That it believes in a global-based, rules-based system. That is standing by international law as a means to resolve international conflicts. It has a blind spot when it comes to Israel-Palestine. That, when it was meaningfully meant, it was going to apply international law. It would not have signed a new free trade agreement with Israel in the last 15 months, which did not have a human rights clause in it. Unlike, the European free trade agreement with Israel. It would not allow Israeli settlement goods to enter into the Canadian market as if it were Israeli goods. Those are two examples of the assistance Canada winds up giving to Israel, winds up deepening the occupation, not helping it to redirect on a path that will bring the occupation to a complete end.

Jacobsen: A United Nations report was published on companies in settlements, illegal settlements. 188 were reviewed. 112 met the criteria for inclusion in the formal database. Some consider this a conservative database. Nonetheless, it is coming from the United Nations Human Rights Council. So, it is coming from a reliable, authoritative, international human rights body. Canada was not in that listing. Ones that were: Luxembourg, the United States, the United Kingdom. Israel with 94 of the companies, naturally. What is the importance of such a database? What, in practical terms, can be done?

Lynk: Sure, think of it this way, the issue that we have with Israel and Palestine is not a lack of international law. International law has been pronounced by the International Court of Justice, the United Nations Security Council, the United Nations General Assembly, among other bodies for years and years with respect to the violations of international law that is going on predominantly by Israel in its conduct of the occupation. The issue is not the lack of international law. The issue is the lack of international accountability. When we think of the mechanisms we have presently, the countermeasures the international community could use; that’s available to it, in order to bring Israel back into line with international law and to end the occupation. There hasn’t been that many initiated. Those that have been initiated have been by primarily the Palestinians themselves. The data is one. The International Criminal Court proceedings are an important second part or accountability measure. The database is important because it sheds a spotlight on the settlement economy. We know, given Israel’s small size, heavy dependence upon international trade, that if the international community was serious about its pronouncements on international law and their application to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. It could with effective use of countermeasures, particularly economic or diplomatic countermeasures; Israel would very quickly realize that the international community meant what it had been saying all along and bring the occupation to an end. I see the database as one small step.

If we shed a spotlight on the companies, Israeli and international companies, involved in furthering the entrenchment of the settlement economy and then international action is taken to consider sanctions against those companies, prohibitions against those companies, boycotts against those companies, then we will have done a great deed towards slowly reversing the entrenchment of the settlements in the West Bank and East Jerusalem. I think you’re right regarding the database. I don’t think the database had a broad enough mandate in terms of the companies that you could wind up looking at. To name a couple of examples, there is a major German company, Heidelberg Construction, which has a number of quarries in the West Bank for housing materials. They are meant for housing developments in the settlements (West Bank and East Jerusalem) and for housing and construction in Israel itself. Heidelberg was not mentioned in the database. There are two Israeli companies, which operate wineries in the West Bank: Psagott and Shiloh. They, among other places, ship their settlement wines into Canada tariff-free under the free trade agreement as products of Israel. There is presently litigation ongoing in the federal court, in the Federal Court of Appeal, seeking to mandate that those settlement products coming into Canada, namely the settle wines, should be labelled as products of Israeli settlements, not Israel. The Canadian government is leading the litigation to defend the practice of allowing these goods to come in tariff-free with the label “Products of Israel.”

This probably gives you an indication of where Canada lies in terms of drawing a line in the sand. My most recent report calls for – and I will call for – is the international community to focus on accountability measures. I think the database is an important first step. It has to be continued. It has to be a living tool. It has to be properly resourced financially and staff-wise. It has to have a broader mandate, so it can look at any significant contributor to the settlement economy to be able to give out an accurate economic picture of foreign and Israeli companies; that is giving economic oxygen to the Israeli settlements.

Jacobsen: By analogy, if individuals want to relieve some anxiety or gain some temporary pleasure, they will take a toke of the cigarette. They will smoke in spite of the warning labels on the package. Similarly, if a short-term economic benefit from business finances and goods coming from Israeli settlement businesses, illegal settlement businesses, are these statements on the packaging, in practical terms, effective? Will they just be ignored?

Lynk: That’s up to civil society to determine. If Israeli wines coming in from the settlements have a more accurate label on them in terms of their origin, then civil society’s next step is to bring to attention discerning wine connoisseurs as to the political problems of buying Israeli settlement wine. Certainly, that worked – you’re not old enough to know this, but this worked 35 years ago with respect to South African wines. Many wine connoisseurs like South African wines. Once it was pointed out what they contributed to, the installment of the Apartheid regime in South Africa, we first boycotted them. They wound up not being allowed into Canada. As a constitutional law professor, I finished teaching my class several cases with respect to the constitutionality and government legislation requiring mandatory health warnings on tobacco products.

We don’t probably give enough credit. But the effect of the work done by any tobacco activist over the last 35 or so years to bring health warnings into society with respect to what it means to consume tobacco products. We have significantly cut the use of tobacco in Canadian society in a substantial fashion. In part, not because we banned cigarettes, but because we introduced significant healthcare measures together with the banning of tobacco advertising, and putting graphic warnings on tobacco products, over time, they all had a significant impact, significant positive impact, on the levels of Canadians who wound up smoking. That was a major governmental effort to try to bring down smoking rates. It will have to be left to civil society on Israeli products coming into Canada from Israeli settlements. But if we get the proper labelling on the wines, it opens the door for civil society to begin to take positive action around settlement products coming into Canada.

Jacobsen: I see a split there. On the one hand, civil society comes in national forms described before. So, that’s one example. We have evidence of it. International, we’re talking civil society in terms of a lot more countries. That’s a massive scaling of that type of solution to this. It is a statement, basically, based on trust or hope rather than, maybe, a kind of stepwise extension of that kind of solution.

Lynk: When you do polling of Canadians, or polling of Americans as well, you’ll find, certainly in Canada, a significant degree of Canadians expressing the sympathy of the Palestinian aspiration to self-determination and a significant proportion of Canadians expressing criticism towards Israeli policy towards occupied Palestinian territories. That’s not reflected in elite government opinion in what our government ends up doing. I think there is a latent empathy or a sympathy towards the injustice going on in the Israeli-Palestinian conflict. What we need is more mobilization in civil society and civil society organizations that would in Canada ensure that we hold governments to account with respect to their policies towards Israel and Palestine, certainly, that’s what you see in Europe. I am impressed with activists in some of the countries that I deal with, say in Belgium, or in the Netherlands, or in Ireland, or in Great Britain, with respect to their influence on high-level political and diplomatic decision-making with respect to Israel and Palestine. Certainly, they are more effective than we are in Canada. They even have large “C” “Conservative” governments more willing to criticize Israeli settlements in the occupied territories than the Canadian government.

Jacobsen: Do countries with settler-colonial histories – New Zealand, Australia, the United States, Canada – harbour the possibility, as they, at least, develop some reconciliation efforts – New Zealand has done more than the other three? Could this then potentially be an extension from the sympathy you’re noting in some of the survey data towards the Palestinians and, maybe, a change of policy at elite levels?

Lynk: One can be hopeful. The fact that in New Zealand, as you point, and we’re going through the early parts of the conversation for the last 5 or 10 years here in Canada. There’s a greater recognition that we are a settler-colonial population. I hear terms, particularly when I hear Indigenous leaders in Canada talk about the history and politics today that they’re confronting, about the settler-colonial background or the harms of colonialism. In a way, the people who are interviewing them, generally white, do not challenge them anymore. We have moved the needle in Canada on the hugely adverse impact European colonialization had on the Indigenous population and continues to have today. At some point, I would like to think that as we make stronger and stronger links here in Canada between European settlement and Indigenous populations and the harms done to the Indigenous populations; that we will make the same parallels with respect to European colonization in Palestine in the first part of the 20^th century and the harm done there to the Palestinian population, and particularly with respect to the harm being done to the Palestinians in the occupied territory since 1967.

Jacobsen: What is the status at present of the moves being made by the Chief Prosecutor of the International Criminal Court, Fatou Bensouda? How are things proceeding?

Lynk: Right now, we are at an interesting stage. She is finished her preliminary review. She thinks there is enough evidence to move forward with a formal war crimes investigation, into the Israeli conduct in the 2014 war on Gaza with respect to the Israeli shooting of largely unarmed Palestinians since March, 2018 at the Gaza frontier, with respect to the settlements, and with respect to the conduct by Hamas and other armed groups within Gaza in shooting rockets into populated Israeli civilian areas. She said there is one procedural question, the jurisdictional question, which needs to be answered by the pre-trial chamber. It is about whether Palestine is a state for the purposes of the 1998 Rome Statute in order to be able to join the Rome Statute and to be able to initiate a request for an investigation of war crimes committed in occupied Palestinian territory. Because of the coronavirus, there has been a delay in the submission of various written arguments to the pre-trial chamber. So, what we were hoping for was an answer by May, it may well be delayed into the Summer. But there is a hope that it will be the Summer when the pre-trial chamber may issue a ruling on the jurisdictional question.

If it rules in favour of what the Chief Prosecutor has asked for, i.e., there is jurisdiction at the International Criminal Court to investigate. Then it will proceed to the formal investigation stage. If she says at some point down the road, “I have enough evidence to proceed to trial. We’re going to charge these individuals.” Remember, the International Criminal Court’s focus is on individual war crimes, not states. If she says, “I will identify these military leaders, militia leaders, or political leaders.” Then it will proceed to the third and final stage, which is trials before the International Criminal Court. That’s the other major accountability measure actively in place at the present time. Certainly, I think it will have military and political leaders worried in Israel. Certainly, Israel has been trying to coordinate, the government of Israel has been trying to coordinate, its reaction to the Chief Prosecutor’s stance towards the United States. The United States, presently, has made it very clear. Even though, it is not a member of the International Criminal Court; that it will do what it can do to thwart the ongoing proceedings involving the Palestinian complaint against Israel. To me, what is going on at the International Criminal Court, perhaps, at the moment, the most important accountability measure. We won’t be expecting the cavalry coming in from the General Assembly [Laughing] or from the Security Council to bring a positive end to the occupation.

It will have to come from the Palestinians themselves on the international diplomatic and judicial front and/or by civil society organizations, such as the launch, in Canada, of the wine labelling case. Those are the kinds of initiatives that we wind up needing to hold Israel up to the full extent possible for its ongoing defiance of international law and international consensus.

Jacobsen: Even if all of these measures are put in place, come to fruition, e.g., labelling of goods in the wine case, the court case going through the charging of particular individuals through Fatou Bensouda at the International Criminal Court, more reportage with more straightforward commentary with shooting at the kneecaps of journalists, medical personnel, civilians, children, and so on, there have been reports, for some time, at least 2015, probably earlier, about the unlivability of the Gaza Strip in which 2,000,000 live. Is there enough time even if these are put in place for some form of sustainable dignified livelihood?

Lynk: Gaza, in 2012, the United Nations released a report raising the question as to whether Gaza would be livable by 2020. We are there now. It released a subsequent report in 2017 on Gaza, saying, ‘Almost all of the social and economic and health markers had gotten worse since 2012.’ So here we are, 2020, I think, probably, somebody could make a very good argument that Gaza has become rather unlivable. No, there isn’t starvation there. Yes, there probably would be hunger and starvation if it weren’t for the international community. The money support from UNRWA’s operations. Money coming in from Qatar. Money coming in from the European Union. The money coming in from Turkey, which just built a brand-new hospital in Gaza. These are all important humanitarian gestures, but these are not bringing the Gazan-Palestinians any closer to salt land. They are keeping its head above water and not allowing it to go underwater with respect to this. Gaza has a collapsing healthcare system. It has regular supplies of power for only 10 to 14 hours per day. It has among the very highest unemployment rates of any economic unit that the World Bank winds up following. That’s despite having a fairly well-educated population, particularly well-educated younger population. It is ruled by Hamas with other Palestinian militias there, which are cruel and wind up ignoring human rights issues – have serious human rights violations of their own. But the primary issue has to be the almost 13-year-old massive blockade that Israel imposes on the Gaza Strip. It blockades Gaza by land, by sea, and by air. Nothing and nobody gets in, and nothing and nobody gets out of Gaza, except without Israeli permission.

That means with a collapsing healthcare system. Palestinians who are too sick to get care in Gaza, e.g., may get sick from cancer, have to seek permission from the Israelis to travel from Gaza to Palestinian hospitals in East Jerusalem or the West Bank to wind up dealing with those particular issues. Israel has had a recent record documented by the World Health Organization that it winds up denying a significant number of those applications. I believe the year was 2017, may have been 2018. But there were 54 Palestinians from Gaza who had applied to have travel permission from the Israelis to go to Palestinian hospitals in East Jerusalem or the West Bank who needed treatment and winded up dying. It is impossible to say whether their lives would have been lengthened had they received permission to go. But certainly, it is an indictment that those people couldn’t go in the first place when they, obviously, were making applications based on the fairly serious nature of their health. There has been an inability of Palestinians in Gaza to import high-tech machinery to conduct some of the high-level healthcare. Because the Israelis would refuse to allow some of the healthcare equipment in because it may be used for “dual-use.” It may have a military use as well. So, the Palestinian hospitals are not only relatively ill-equipped due to a shortage of doctors and nurses, but also ill-equipped due to a shortage of equipment to do diagnostics. Equipment to do radiation. Drugs to do a wide variety of health treatments. Basic health equipment, as well, such as gauzes and masks. These have all, at one time or another, been in short supply in Gaza in recent years in large part due to the blockade and the need to obtain Israeli permission for every single item that winds up coming into Gaza.

Jacobsen: Also, we’re in the midst, based on the World Health Organization statement, of a global pandemic. Something comparable, apparently, to the Spanish Flu of 1918/1919. In other words, this is a once-in-a-century occurrence. It is surprising to many, but ongoing. This is SARS-CoV-2 giving symptoms of COVID-19 or C-19. With this verge of collapse or extraordinarily inadequate healthcare system situation for the Palestinians in general, if SARS-CoV-2 does spread in the occupied Palestinian territories, what would be a predictable outcome?

Lynk: Sure, keep in mind, we talk about the occupied Palestinian territories. We’re talking about three different geographic areas ruled by three different authorities and have three different standards of living. But all of them all well, well, well below the Israeli standard of living: Gaza, East Jerusalem, and the West Bank. There are hospitals in East Jerusalem. There are hospitals in the West Bank. They can give care comparable to a lower-middle-income country. They don’t have the budgetary resources or the staff resources, or the equipment resources, to handle a large-scale pandemic. If COVID-19 ends up getting a deep grip into West Bank society, things are even worse in Gaza, where the annual per capita income the West Bank would be somewhere, probably, in the range of $3,000 or more than $3,000 per year American. It is probably a little more than $1,000 in Gaza and has been declining over the last number of years, ever since the blockade was imposed. The big worry, in Gaza, is the 2,000,000 with a small stretch of land with an entirely inadequate healthcare system that is extraordinarily under-resourced. That, in terms of the specifics of COVID-19, the inability to be able to test, let alone effectively treat, let alone effectively isolate, let alone have enough ICU beds, that would wind up managing a crisis if there was a stampede going to the hospitals. Gaza has had weeks and weeks of preparation.

Keep this in mind, the international community still considers Gaza to be occupied territory. Even though, Israelis, actually, left or moved its army more than 15 years ago. It is still occupied territory. Israel still has a number of responsibilities under the Fourth Geneva Convention, including significant health responsibilities to ensure that epidemics don’t take hold and that there is a satisfactory level of healthcare provided to the people there. That means Israel would have responsibilities that there are adequate treatment facilities there, adequate drugs, adequate materials such as gloves and masks, and of other forms of equipment and, maybe, even ensuring that there are adequate numbers of staff who are there to, maybe, respond to COVID-19, should it take hold in Gaza. So, the worries, I have read a fair amount on COVID-19 and Gaza. All of them are expressing concern or alarm as to what would happen there. It hasn’t happened yet. But we do know COVID-19 doesn’t obey boundaries. We know the persons with COVID-19 have already appeared in Gaza. All we can do is hold our breath and make sure that it doesn’t find itself entrenched in there. Also, that pushes Gaza and the international community to make sure there are enough people and medical goods to deal with COVID-19 should it attack Gaza.

Jacobsen: Some of the secular community, in spite of that is all said and in other interviews and in publications over decades, attempt to simplify the entire Israeli-Palestinian issue or the entire Israeli-Palestinian conflict to religion. This seems, if I am frank, extremely ignorant and… other things. When talking to Richard Falk, who held the position before, as we both know, he speaks of a notion of “biblical entitlement” as part of the issue. What role does religion or even biblical entitlement play in this overall issue?

Lynk: I think he is probably correct in the identification of that term. Certainly, Jews who have been part of the movement to Israel and the establishment of the state of Israel and the occupation after 1967. Some Israeli-Jews have used religion as a justification that the Bible is a form of real estate deed to be able to claim sovereignty over the mandate Palestine and, perhaps, beyond those boundaries. At the end of the day, I think religion winds up being a smokescreen or an argument to use, but what is fundamentally at work here is human rights and the denial of human rights. I remember when I first became aware of the Israeli-Palestinian conflict when I was going to McGill for graduate work in the mid- to late-1970s. I encountered young, very liberal American Jews studying at McGill in those days who were joining committees in support of Palestinians. To me, that was an eye-opener. It was an astonishing revelation that this wasn’t a struggle over ethnicity, ultimately. It wasn’t a struggle over religion. If young American Jews could wind up thinking through the particular issue and identify what was missing as the bottom-line harbinger of conflict was, then it was a struggle over rights. Then it seemed to me anybody could wind up identifying that. Certainly, I feel reinforced by that today in my role as Special Rapporteur when I deal with progressive and liberal Israeli organizations and individuals who wind up spending a large part of their professional life or their personal life agitating against the occupation and wanting to seek some kind of just, fair, equitable settlement based on international law and based on mutual respect between Israelis and Palestinians. Let’s face it, there are approximately 13,000,000 predominantly Israeli Jews and Palestinian Arabs, Muslim and Christian, who live between the Jordan River and the Mediterranean Sea. Neither is going anywhere.

The only long-term hope for any of them is to find a way of living equitably under the rule of law with a deep respect for human rights and a finding a way of developing a constitutional order, whether a two-state or a democratic one-state, for them to live in prosperity and harmony with one another. I think when there finally is a respect for human rights in Israeli society, in Palestinian society, and between Israelis and Palestinians; you have the basis for a cooperative society or a cooperative two societies living either with each other or side-by-side each other. It would probably be a model for the rest of the Middle East. That’s where my hope winds up going to, probably because I am so immersed in the issue of human rights. I see that as a primary issue that supersedes what religious differences there are and what ethnic issues there wind up being. Because at the end of the day, in a world that’s divided by religion, by class, by ethnicity, it is a human-made phenomenon, human rights and international law, that have the best chance of bringing us together. International rights and international relations, the spine of these are international law. The heart of this international law is international human rights law and international humanitarian law. If those wind up being respected and wind up putting curbs on avaricious behaviour on either Palestinians or Israelis, then they have a chance of finding themselves in an orderly, equitable, and just society or just societies. That will learn to use whatever tensions are between them in a cooperative and positive way rather than in an almost entirely negative way as it is right now.

Jacobsen: Some of the advice given to you, prior to entering the position, from others who held the position before, e.g., Richard Falk and John Dugard, etc. They mentioned one thing in particular, which is to be fearless. Why?

Lynk: [Laughing] They, actually, said two things to me. I would be curious where you found that.

Jacobsen: One was fearless. The other one was to make sure that, basically, what you say is as robustly substantiated as possible.

Lynk: Right, that was given to me by Richard Falk. Richard said to me. It’s the best. He and John Dugard gave me lots of words of very wise advice. But the best advice of all was to be fearless on the one hand. That I should stand up for human rights when I see them violated. That I should be outspoken in my defence and my advocacy for that. But he said the other thing was to be responsible. In that, to make sure that when you make a criticism or make a defence of human rights, I’m basing it on well-documented events and evidence. That I can back up what I wind up saying. That’s the best advice for a whole range of different things that you want to do in life that Richard wound up giving me. When I sit down to write a report, to give a press statement, to sit down to speak to governments, to sit down with civil society organizations, or other academics with respect to my work as Special Rapporteur, “fearless” and “responsible” govern virtually everything that I wind up saying.

Jacobsen: In terms of the responsibility and in terms of the fearlessness, granted, many have come before. Many have come under a lot of pressure. I’m sure. We’re both aware of several cases on that front. To those who document human rights violations and advocate human rights violations, in this particular issue, if someone critiques Israeli policy as a violation of international human rights or of international humanitarian law, they can be charged as an anti-Semite. In other words, they are given the charge of anti-Semitism. Or if someone is not of Jewish background, they have an Arab background. Then they can have a charge of being biased because of having an Arab background. What are the appropriate responses to both of those charges?

Lynk: I think it is to hug international law as much as possible. I am not saying this just because I am a lawyer. Because there are many people who do very good work on law, international law, with respect to Israel and Palestine who are not lawyers, but who understand the legal framework is the one common human-made platform that we’ve all wound up creating; that every country, at least on paper, is committed to wind up obeying and putting into practice. If you can show that you are operating from international law, and in particular human rights law and humanitarian law, you apply that in the analysis that you wind up conducting on Israel-Palestine. Then you end up putting yourself in as irreproachable a position as you can with respect to the inevitable criticism that will come back. John Dugard has been heavily criticized for his claim for apartheid. Boy, there are not many people on the planet, given his background (South African), who would know better what apartheid looks like than him. Richard Falk, particularly Richard Falk perhaps, because he is Jewish as well as a phenomenal human rights lawyer and scholar. He gets inevitably attacked for his views and because he is probably seen as defying organized Jewish community – not consensus because the Jewish community in Canada, the United States, and elsewhere (in particular on Israel and Palestine) – and institutions have been fierce in their criticism of him. [Laughing] I can only imagine how much that winds up hurting. Myself, I was criticized when I was first given this appointment by the current government, the new liberal government in Canada by the Foreign Minister.

Jacobsen: Also, this is in spite of unanimous voting from the United Nations Human Rights Council.

Lynk: Look, I wouldn’t have taken this position without knowing what the blowback could potentially be. I am not naïve to wind up thinking that you could criticize Israeli practices in the occupied territories without some people have a strong contrary view to who you are, what you’re saying, and what your motivations may wind up being. As long as I can attach myself to excellent Palestinian civil society and Israeli civil society, and international civil society reports and advocacy on this, as long as I can document my critical commentary with respect to the growth of the settlements, with the rise of annexation in the air, with respect to the lack of accountability being demonstrated by the international community towards Israeli practices, and base that all on what we commonly agree is out litmus test – international human rights law and international humanitarian law, then I have gotten thicker skin, certainly, in the last four years, but I can wind up living with what I wind up putting up. Obviously, I want to find language that will get the greatest number of people to pay attention to what I am writing. I try to do that. But I also try to do this in a manner that doesn’t downplay the very real patterns of human rights violations that are ongoing there. They have to be called out in that way.

I am lucky. Certainly, when I go to Europe, when I go to Geneva to the United Nations, or New York and meet people from the United Nations, doors open for me. I get to meet high ranking diplomats, civil society organizations, and top scholars, with respect to this. I get fairly prominent platforms to speak at universities and through the media on this. It’s a wonderful privilege that I have to be able to do this. But as we find out a few minutes ago, I get to do this. I try to be as fearless [Laughing] and responsible for putting forth what I think is the truth and the stance of international law to examine Israeli practices and, sometimes, Palestinian practices as well.

Jacobsen: Israel had an election.

Lynk: Had many elections [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Right, I was about to say, “Another election.” A surprise to many was the alliance, coalition, joining of Benny Gantz of the Blue and White Party and Benjamin Netanyahu of the Likud. Also, the Joint List had more seats than ever before with 15 out of 12, which is 2 more than before. What is the stance of this new partnership on oPt?

Lynk: If you’d asked me last week, and if you ask me a week from now, the politics in Israel seem exceptionally fluid, even more than regular Israeli politics.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Lynk: All I can say, as to the latest of what I’ve wound up reading; Benny Gantz has been tempted into a coalition government with Benjamin Netanyahu. It split his own party. It split the other minor Jewish party on the left, which is the coalition between the Labour Party and Meretz. Where two members, I believe, of the Labour Alliance are going over into the government as well, the issue, right now, seems to be everyone using the argument, ‘Oh, we need an emergency national government because of the COVID-19 challenge to Israeli society.’ But, certainly, Prime Minister Netanyahu is saying, ‘As a condition for joining the government, you have to agree to some form of annexation coming up. It was part of my promises in the last 3 elections. Certainly, it is within my own party and the parties right of Likud. They all expect annexation measures to be taken for this coalition government.’ Who wouldn’t expect that? He not only has his own 58 seats all expecting annexation. But certainly, there are annexation drives by other parties to the left of Netanyahu that were elected. Also, he has the American government on the annexation side as well. We will see in the next couple of days what the ongoing negotiations are to complete a government.

There are subtle issues still left to be resolved. But the pressure from the Israeli right, which is substantial – has a substantial size in the Israeli Knesset – is saying, ‘Look, we may not have this chance again for the next foreseeable future, where with an American president who has endorsed a plan named after him, substantial annexation of parts of the West Bank for all of the Israeli settlements, all or almost all of the Jordan Valley. After January 2021, we cannot waste this singular opportunity to be able to go forth and annex.’ My sense is how Benjamin is a much more skilled political operator than Benny Gantz, than any Israeli politician in government now. We are getting very close to annexation now. That’s what I am expecting will be the final core in the agreements among all the different parties. I know one thing is who gets what Cabinet post. The policies that will guide this government over the next 18 to 24 months; I would be surprised if immediate annexation was not part of the agreement.

Jacobsen: What about the oPt side? What are some of the violations that we’re seeing from Fatah, from Hamas, from the Palestinian Authority?

Lynk: Sure, some of them have to do with torture, arbitrary arrest, with respect to the degree of surveillance on their own populations, with respect to probably or particularly the need for democracy. They lack democratic institutions. They are 14 years into a 4-year mandate. They haven’t had elections. I want to acknowledge the difficulty in trying to organize elections when you don’t have control over East Jerusalem and don’t have control over Gaza and don’t have control over large parts of the West Bank. The Palestinian Authority has control, full military and civil control or security control, over 18% of the West Bank. Basically, the large Palestinian cities, they share security control with the Israelis over another 22% over Area B. Over Area C, which is 60% of the West Bank, that’s over sole Israeli military and security and political control. So, holding elections, it is a great challenge and a great difficulty. I think the reason why you don’t see a greater international push for Palestinian elections is that they might wind up being content with the leadership that’s there now. You have a Palestinian leadership that wants to see a resolution. You have a Palestinian leadership in the West Bank not engaging in violence against Israeli settlers and the Israeli military. Yet, also, you have a Palestinian Authority, which is pretty much hemmed into a pretty very area. Not unlike Gaza in the 18% of the West Bank that they wind up controlling, keep in mind, the West Bank is 165 different islands of control under the Palestinian Authority. It is completely surrounded by Israel. They have no ability to be able to go into Israel.

Palestinians in the West Bank, they have no ability to go into Jordan across the border, except with Israeli permission. Many of the blockade measures mentioned about Gaza also exist in the West Bank as well. But as much as they can, you would expect the Palestinians would have greater international legitimacy and greater legitimacy with respect to their own people if they were able to have bona fide elections to be able to renew their political leadership. That seems, to me, as a significant issue with respect to human rights and democracy going to the Palestinians. With respect to Hamas, it is worse. They hold no elections. Even though, there is nothing preventing them from holding elections in the Gaza Strip. They are blockaded externally, but do have some control within Gaza. They have some control to hold elections if they wish. It diminishes their ability to be able to claim to speak on behalf of the Palestinian population by not having elections either. To me, those are basic democratic rights; the Palestinians, in soccer, it is an “own goal” by not trying to pursue the establishment of elections and democratic institutions and popular control over their political leaders.

Jacobsen: Other phrases or terms coming to the public, come in more dramatic statements or news, or press releases, etc. In the media, we will see phrases like “terror tunnels,” “Iron Dome.” We will see terms like “rockets.” What is the reality on the ground, for instance, of the efficacy of the Iron Dome for Israel? What is the reality of terror tunnels? Are these rockets coming from Gaza, for instance, being launched at Israel truly rockets in any conventional military sense?

Lynk: Sure, with respect to the rockets, whether or not they’re – and you say, ‘Rockets in a conventional sense,’ certainly, they have the power to damage. A lot of them are being shot into, and this is part of the negligence of this, from Gaza into Israel. Some of them reach Israeli civilian territory. You could argue that these are the places that these are meant or intended to land. If you send military shells or rockets onto a civilian population indiscriminately, that, certainly, is a war crime. I do not have a hesitation using the same standards to say, “Those are wrong. Those should be investigated by the International Criminal Court. They should be tried. If convicted, they should be punished because of that.” We also have to acknowledge that there is an extraordinary asymmetrical relationship militarily, economically, and politically between the Israelis and the Palestinians, more specifically between Israel and Gaza. Whenever damaging rockets can be launched from Gaza and can land in Israel, and have the potential to do harm for Israeli citizens, the Israeli military’s ability, in terms of their possession of advanced state of the art rockets, planes, artillery, tanks, and so on, far outnumbers what the Gazans can wind up doing in return.

We have seen that in the wars in 2008/2009, 2012, and 2014, and the periodic retaliation Israel may launch against Palestinians when rockets come out of there. Their firepower, their ability to cause huge civilian tolls in terms of wounded and dead, and damage and destruction of civilian centers such as homes and organizations and hospitals, is extraordinary in comparison to what the Gazans are capable. We have to keep this in mind with respect to this. Anyone who ends up firing in a disproportionate way at civilians is guilty or likely guilty of a war crime. That’s whether or not you are a Palestinian Hamas Jihad supporter or an Israeli military/political leader conducting that as well.

Jacobsen: This would be the “hugging” of international law. What have we not covered?

Lynk: If you have one more question, I am happy to cover it.

Jacobsen: Who/what would you consider some of the more robust authoritative objective, in as much as that is possible, organizations, or authors, or speakers on the Israeli-Palestinian issue?

Lynk: When I think of civil society organizations that I work with; this is not an exhaustive list. I think extremely highly of B’Tselem and Gisha. I have regard for the work that they wind up doing. On the Palestinian side, I think of Al-Haq. I think of the Palestinian Human Rights Center. I think of Al-Mezan. I think of many others. In Israel, I think of Adalah, which fights for Palestinian-Israeli citizens of Israel to fight for their human rights. The Israel Association for Civil Liberties is an organization whose work I follow and admire internationally. Obviously, Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch do extraordinarily good work with regards to Israel and Palestine. If someone was interested in wanting to explore the issues of human rights and how leading organizations apply those standards to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, I cannot think of better organizations for exploring their advocacy, and their reporting, then the organizations that I’ve just listed.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Michael.

Lynk: Very well, Scott, thanks very much for this, you’re obviously well, well informed on this. I rarely come across an interviewer as deeply informed, and to have the pleasure to be given such thoughtful and wide-ranging questions as you’ve done. I am really pleased that you’re interviewing people like Richard Falk, John Dugard, among many other people. If I can do 1/10^th of the quality of the work that they have done as Special Rapporteurs, I will have this on my tombstone and be very happy. They are extraordinary people. You are aware of the other organizations as well. It is all the people’s work who I end up cheering on. So, I’ll cheer on your work as well.

Jacobsen: Thank you, sir.

Lynk: [Laughing].

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2022-05-14

Ask Professor Burge 4 – Overlap and Separation of Religion and the State

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/31

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about some of the areas of overlap and separation of religion and the government.

*Interview conducted on July 7, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we’re looking at an intersection of finances from taxes distributed by the American government and religious institutions. In general, how do Americans see this kind of cross-section? Do they see it as a hot button issue or more as a lukewarm issue?

Professor Burge: I feel this is one of the issues sitting in the background of religion and politics. One, it is never at the top of the list. Two, I think the American public think the government should not get involved with religion and proselytizing or supporting one religion or another or no religion.

When we talk about he separation of church and state, it is not about the government giving money to churches. It is about the constellation of issues revolving around the Sun of the issue of separation of church and state. It will flare up. Then it will go away. George W. Bush had faith-based initiatives, where the government wanted to give money to churches to feed the hungry, cloth the hungry. It was an issue for a while.

It went away. Now, we see a new thing. It will go away. There will be another thing in the future. Definitely, right now, it is a hot button issue.

Jacobsen: How does this split in terms of the three major political affiliations in the United States – Republican, Democrat, and Independent?

Burge: Christians are generally Republican. Republican Party is the party of white Christians generally. Don’t get me wrong, The Democratic Party has half of its members identifying with Christianity. When we think of giving money to churches rom the government, Republicans are more supportive of it than Democrats.

If you ask, ‘Do you think if churches are given money by government that this will increase religious division?’ Democrats are more likely to say, “Yes,” than Republicans. Democrats are more likely to say that people shouldn’t be forced to engage in religious practice than Republicans. So, there’s always this divide.

The Democrats are very wary of using tax dollars to try to grow churches, to try to proselytize, evangelize, etc. This kind of stuff. They think the two spheres should be separate. There is a whole growing literature politics science called Christian Nationalism. It is this insidious belief that America is a ‘Christian nation’ founded on Christian principles and, therefore, the government should advocate for those Christian principles to the detriment of people who are non-Christians.

For example, Muslims, things like Sharia Law. Things like the Ten Commandments up. That’s a big deal for Christian nationalists. It is almost always a Republican idea; that America is a Christian nation, while most Democrats disagree and consider America a pluralistic nation of all religious groups and backgrounds and should celebrate that. Christian nationalists think we should celebrate Christianity and almost always conservative Protestant Christianity.

Jacobsen: Is another term for this Dominionism or Reconstructionism?

Burge: Yes, there’s this thing called the Seven Mountains. This is all part od Dominionism. If you get way down the rabbit hole of all this stuff, a lot of people who write about his stuff will write about America pre-destined by God, chosen by God; ‘we are the new Israel.’ Ron Reagan even used the language of John Winthrop calling us ‘a shining city upon hill.’ Like, ‘Everyone will come to us.’ It is exactly the language of the Old Testament of Israel being a shining city on the hill.

It goes back to saying, “We are not another nation. We are a special nation called on, by God.” I don’t think any other nation on Earth believes that, like we do in America. It is a big part of conservative politics in America in seeing us as special and themselves as part of it.

Jacobsen: When it comes to government and religion, what are the ones that come to mind now?

Burge: Yes, so, the one that’s really on everyone’s mind is the Paycheque Protection Program, which when Covid took hold and many businesses in America had to close shop; the idea was to give money to employers to keep people employed by their employers. It could be tens of millions out of work and on unemployment lines. The government strategy was, “Let’s give money to employers to keep those people employed by their employers, so, when Covid is over, it is easier for them to go back into the workforce. So, they don’t have to go on unemployment insurance and don’t have to be rehired.”

Basically, they would give you money to pay 10 weeks of payroll expenses. It was a loan. But if you filled out the forgiveness documents, you get all the money refunded or forgiven. It would be a forgivable loan, so a direct grant. The Trump Administration made the PPP loans available to religious organizations and churches. Many of them received funds with over $7 billion of federal money given to religious organizations and churches.

For a lot of constitutional scholars, especially on the left, they considered this a violation because it was state supported religion with paying clergy salaries. That’s clearly, for those people, a violation. For others, it says, “Other people got it. If churches didn’t get it, then it is a violation. It might also be a violation of the First Amendment.”

It is a big discussion in the secular communities. They are very upset that churches do not pay property taxes, don’t pay income taxes, and are enjoying the PPP loans. The reason for the flare-up now is the small business association released a list of everyone who received the loans of $150,000. It was 661,000 organizations. About 12,000 were religious organizations.

So, lots and lots of churches got lots and lots of money from the government to keep the doors open.

Jacobsen: What would happen without the funding to those churches?

Burge: Good question, mass layoffs in a lot of cases. When people think of churches in America, they think of thousands of people and 20, 40, 60, staff members. The average church is very small, less than 100 people. A lot of them were so vulnerable. The downturning in given would have to close the doors, couldn’t employ staff. It would have lead to the closure of many churches.

For bigger churches, like megachurches with 75 or 100 staff, it would lead to mass layoffs. You have to think from an economic standpoint. Is it good that these people were laid off for the economy as a whole, forgetting that fact that they work for churches? We don’t know the full effects of PPP yet.

According to the document that I saw, 31,000,000 Americans’ jobs were retained because of PPP, which is a huge chunk. We have 160,000,000 adult Americans. We’re talking about 20% of all adult Americans. Overall, I think it was a good program.

Jacobsen: When it comes to other forms, some of the aforementioned with tax exemptions for places of worship in general. How do Christian nationalists reconcile the idea of a separation of religion and government while also seeing the tax exempt status for their places of worship? Also, the other side as well, how do the ordinary believers and the secular believe this?

Burge: The thing about Christian nationalism, they do not want a separation of church and state. They want an integration of church and state as long as the church is the Evangelical Protestant Church. They want America to be a Christian government used for advocating Christian principles aimed for proselytizing Christian principles. They want the Ten Commandments up in the court rooms.

They want the Ten Commandments up as monuments. They want prayer in schools, public schools. It is all part of Christian nationalism as an idea. PPP is an idea. It should support the church because it is a Christian thing, but not to mosques, synagogues, and all these other groups. They might bristle at that idea. In the case of more moderate Christians, I think a lot of them take a pragmatic view of things like this.

They see churches need money to keep the doors open and do not necessarily see this as encouraging religion of a specific type. There has been a huge backlash from the secular community saying, ‘This is all a sham. Churches don’t pay taxes and should not get money back.” What is interesting, American Atheist, Freedom From Religion, the Humanist Society, Center for Inquiry took money too. They’re non-profits as well. It has been really funny.

Even the Ayn Rand Foundation…

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Burge: …they even took a payout from the PPP. So, it goes to show you. Your ideals are one thing. When they are handing out cheques, everyone puts their hand out and tries to justify it on the backend while trying to justify it as they see fit. It has been an interesting exercise in seeing how theoretical policy meets real policy. We are seeing most Americans do not stick to their guns theologically or politically.

When the money comes around, they stick out their hands.

Jacobsen: What organizations did stick to their guns and not giving ad hoc rationalization?

Burge: It is hard to know. Some places did apply and didn’t get it, for whatever reason. We don’t know who didn’t apply. For instance, I look for the Southern Baptist Convention on the list. They weren’t on it. They may have had theological reasons or didn’t need the money or under a different name.

So, it is hard to know who didn’t do that. Tons of Catholic dioceses did that. This is what makes Catholic diocese more difficult. They have clergy, teaching schools. The money went to pay for teachers who work in the school systems too. It is hard to know out of the $7.3 billion went to clergy versus teachers, janitors, and others who do not do a clergy function while taking care of the building

We’ll never know the answer to that question.

Jacobsen: So, how much does America truly separate government and religion?

Burge: Some [Laughing], I think that’s the answer. I could go for an hour on instances where we give religion to wide of a range today. The court system in America has been incredibly deferential to religious groups.

A pastor can be fired at any time for any reason without any legal recourse. There are some states: If you run a private daycare, you are inspected several times a year. If you are a Christian daycare as part of a church, then you are never inspected because no politician in America wants to seem like they are antagonistic to religion or Christianity.

So, Christianity in America gets free range, in a lot of ways, because people are afraid to check them – politicians and bureaucrats as well. So, I think the answer is that Christianity does get a wide girth. I don’t think there are many instances where it is explicitly supported by money. However, churches are non-profits who don’t have to pay taxes or even file much paperwork.

If you are a non-profit in America, secular non-profit, you have to file a form every year listing how much is raised, how much is spent, who is on the board, and the salaries. Churches in America do not need to file any of this. It is an opacity in the report filing. It is an instance of American religion insulated from politics.

I think that’s the way most people like it – staying far away from it. However, I will say this. There are many churches who want to be political. There is something called Pulpit Freedom Sunday that happens every year. Some members of the clergy will give speeches in which they explicitly endorse political candidates for parties, which is a violation of the Johnson Amendment; it allows all these churches to have all this freedom to not pay taxes as long as they don’t endorse candidates.

These churches will endorse candidates as a means to thumb their nose at the IRS to see if they will revoke their tax exempt status. It never happens; it has never happened. Because again, the IRS is scared to death of seeming antagonistic to religion. They will never shut down a church, even if they are not only violating the spirit but the letter of the law of the Johnson Amendment.

So, churches in America have a lot, a lot, a lot of latitude in how they behave and the government doesn’t want to intrude on them.

Jacobsen: What would you consider the greatest area of separation? What would you consider the greatest area of overlap?

Burge: The biggest area is in hiring and firing. If you run a private business and fire or hire someone, you have to justify this. Churches have to justify none of this. They can fire anyone, anytime, for any reason. There are churches that have fired people for coming out as gay.

There was a Catholic church that fired a schoolteacher that had in vitro fertilization because it is a violation of Catholic doctrine. The courts have nothing to say about it. They intentionally will not mess with that at all. It is outside their purview.

When it comes to when they are really close together, I don’t think there are any really strong instances of that, except for the fact that there are times when churches will do things like voter registration drives in the lobby of the church. Even some churches in America, typically black churches, will have political candidates come speak at the pulpit, that’s a collide. White Evangelicals tend not to do that.

They tend to bristle at that. What they tend not to understand, the Black Church in America came up during Jim Crow and discrimination where the church became the meeting place in all aspects of life for African Americans because they did not have access to the Moose Lodge, the Elks’ Club, or a social club.

If you wanted to meet together in a big space, e.g., in the South during Jim Crow, the church became the place for that because it was easy. You didn’t think about the implications of a politician speaking from the pulpit. Mike Pence spoke from a church in Dallas a little while ago, predominantly white Evangelical church.

I think those are the times religion and politics are really, really close, when politicians try to reach out to religious demography while trying to win over votes.

Jacobsen: Professor Burge, thank you for your time.

Burge: Always a pleasure.

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2022-05-14

Ask Jon 15 – Evidence-Based Policy-Making

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/30

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about evidence-based policy.

*Interview conducted on June 22, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, you’ve been doing some reflection on evidence-based policy making and some research on the numbers of guns in the United States. What is your general reflection on evidence-based policy making? What are some of the numbers cropping up in the midst of the research on the staggering number of guns in the United States and the fallout from that?

Jonathan Engel: In the United States, there has been an outcry, of course. It has been well-known and publicized about police and policing with force and about black people. There has been a lot of thought and talk about restructuring policing in this country. It seems like a good idea. Many things don’t seem to be working. We have too many people in prison in this country. We have, obviously, crimes rates, generally, speaking, that are too high.

People do not feel protected by the police. In fact, there are many people of colour in this country who quite understandably feel afraid of he police. So, we have a situation ripe for rethinking policing. What are we going to do? What will do differently? What changes can we make to public safety? Again, not just policing, even public safety as an idea: What do we do to enhance our public safety?

Now, there are a lot of ideas going around, e.g., defund the police. It seems like a slogan meaning different things to people. One of them is taking resources used for policing and see if you can take some of those resources and put them in other areas, e.g., mental health resources, social service delivery, mental health delivery, substance abuse delivery, housing, and see if this can enhance public safety.

I’ll tell you something interesting. I saw it. I want to do some research on it. I find it fascinating. One way to reduce crime is to ameliorate lead paint in housing. We know that lead is one of the most poisonous substances on earth and affects the mind. There is some research indicating that one of the reasons why the crime rate has been slowly but steadily down in the United States is that we’ve worked, but not enough, to ameliorate lead paint. If we put resources into that, it could be successful.

It is important that what we do is evidence-based. You can’t just think about what you want to see, what feels right. To say, “It sounds like a good idea.” An example is a lot of the police departments in the last 10 or 20 years have had mandatory racial training in terms of racial sensitivity training for the police. It doesn’t appear to be working. Recent research shows that it doesn’t work.

We really need to make sure that whatever it is that we do is consistent with the evidence. You mentioned firearms in this country. It is one of the things that has to be looked into in terms of de-escalating confrontations between police and citizens. Right now, I am talking without having done the research, but I would like to do it. I run this as a hypothesis, not as a fact.

I would think that police in this country, when they stop somebody; when they interact with the citizen, there’s a legitimate concern of them being armed. The reason for this being legitimate: There are almost 400,000,000 firearms in public hands in the United States, which is incredible [Laughing]. It is over 120 firearms per 100 people.

So, what are the odds that when a policeman stops someone that they are armed? Pretty good. What happens? Again, I am not saying this from research, but research should be done on this. I would think that this would result in police in being a little more fast to reach for their own firearm. If you are thinking, “This person is quite possibly armed,” and in this country, it is true.

I recently saw a letter to the editor saying, ‘The U.S. should be more like the U.K.’ In this sense, many of the police officers on the beat in the U.K. do not routinely carry a firearm. It seems like a great idea. At the same time, the populace does not carry firearms for the most part in the U.K. In the U.K., there are a lot of people who own shotguns. There is a lot of hunting in the U.K. Apart from the shotguns, there are only 500,000 or so for 67,000,000 (500,000 firearms). Whereas, in the U.S., there are 400,000,000 for 320,000,000 or so people. It is a much higher rate.

It doesn’t seem realistic to ask the police to not carry firearms. Until, we start enforcing and enacting real guns laws that will reduce the umber of firearms in private hands to lessen the need for police to carry firearms.

Jacobsen: How is this conversation taking place in the secular society? What were some of the responses to some of the policy changes and plans until April of next year by Cuomo?

Engel: People are taking a “wait and see” approach. People do want change. That’s out there. I caution myself, “Let’s make sure the changes are evidence-based rather than knee-jerk and only sounds good.” Most seem pretty open. Some are more radical than others. I hear some people, ‘Defund the police,’ meaning, “Defund the police, no more police.” I think that’s the type of thing that is not going to be accepted by most citizens in this country.

You are walking towards your car at night and someone walks towards it. You don’t want to send a social worker.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: And I have a lot of respect for social workers. It makes sense to look at the research and take some police resources, for the police too, so the police do not have to deal with situations in which they shouldn’t and aren’t trained for, e.g., mental health issues with a mental breakdown or something like that. It would be good for them too – to not be in a situation in which they were not trained for.

Cuomo has put forward some proposals. However, New York has a strange legislature – let’s see what gets enacted. I think this has really been a real time for rethinking. I hope we do it right, use evidence, use evidence-based research to make decisions; I do think that for a lot of people, certainly people of colour, the policing and public safety are not what they should and could be. We can do better; we can use the research to show us what we can do.

I do think that you’re making a mistake if you’re leaving anything that might have an effect off the table. One oft hose is the ubiquity of guns in private ownership. Also, the lethality of the guns and the assault rifles. It is all kinds of issues related around gun ownership. If you are going to rethink public safety, then this has to be on the table.

Jacobsen: Last question, is the policy here with a focus on evidence-based reasoning completely at odds with the proposals around faith-based reasoning? In that, as we talked about before, the “thoughts and prayers” culture is taking a whooping.

Whereas, the evidence-based stuff is becoming more and more accepted because people pray, unfortunately people die, and the reality test of death of those around oneself simply comes to the fore, whether one is watching the Floyd video or the Trayvon video or in some critical ward with coronavirus ravaging the lungs. A reality becoming more unavoidable for citizens in developed societies who take more faith-based reasoning in America on average.

Engel: Yes, I was talking to someone about this in the morning. I saw an article or a front-page article in The New York Times on the Trump supporters who went to his rally in Tulsa – the few [Laughing] – on Saturday. There were interviews with some of thee people who are saying things like, ‘I don’t believe this Covid stuff. I think it is all done to hurt President Trump,’ etc.

One of the things that came to mind, ‘Where did these people learn to believe things for which there was no evidence?’ In church, you are taught when little to believe things without evidence. It is the highest virtue that you can have to believe stuff without evidence. Faith, the belief in something without evidence. People are taught from when they are little kids in church and synagogue, and mosque, and Hindu temples, etc.

It is one of the greatest virtues to believe something for which there is no evidence. It is a very difficult chain to break. Hope springs eternal, I am hopeful that we can turn a corner. Are there people out there who pray for aunt Mary or someone who winds up dying of coronavirus anyway who will say, “The evidence shows, it doesn’t work”? I hope we’re moving forward.

However, civilization is not a straight curve upward. It zig-zags around. I would hope one of the results of this terrible pandemic is that there prayers simply didn’t work and, therefore, based on that evidence, “Let’s try something that the evidence does show works,” for example, wearing a mask.

Jacobsen: Sir, as always, thank you.

Engel: Thank you, Scott, you take of yourself! I’ll speak to you next week.

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2022-05-14

Ask Jon 14 – ‘It’s not then. It’s today.’

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/28

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about American social issues.

*Interview conducted on June 15, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are going to talk about a letter to the editor of The New York Times by you. What was the instigation for it? What did you state in regards to rage?

Jonathan Engel: I was talking about the Bible more. There was an opinion piece in The New York Times called “What the Bible has to Say About Black Anger” by Esau McCaulley. He is an Assistant Professor of the New Testament at Wheaton College and a priest in the Anglican Church. He talked about the anger African Americans and others feel in the United States around police brutality and racial discrimination.

But The New York Times is kind of my hometown paper. Although, it considers itself to be an international media outlet as opposed to a local media outlet. It is the local paper for me. So, again, this person talked about what the Bible says about rage. It was a communication to Christians. It didn’t have a bad intent.

The intent, I think, was to talk to Christians and have them understand the rage that many of their fellow citizens are feeling right now involving issues around policing, racism, etc. So, in and of itself, I don’t think or consider this a bad person or what he wrote bad, but I don’t understand why anybody would look that particular book about anything that’s happening today – for inspiration about anything happening today.

One of the first things I look at it. Which Bible? When the phrase, “The Bible,” is used by a Christian, they assume their Bible is the Bible used by everyone. The Jewish Bible is different than the Christian Bible. Other holy texts are different. With the title of the article, what the Bible says about rage, it assumes everybody, “Yes! The Christian Bible…” The version of the Protestants is different than the Catholics. I am not sure what he is getting at there.

Also, something more pertinent, the ongoing racial problems that the United States has had over… always had, since Europeans came to these shores. The issues regarding, specifically, black people or African Americans stem from slavery. That’s how black people from African descent got to this country. They were brought here as slaves.

My question, “Why would you look for inspiration about how to deal with an injustice that was ignited by slavery or the belief that it is okay for one human being or own another human being? Why would you look for inspiration on how to deal with that to a book that says in many cases, ‘Slavery is okay’?” That’s illogical. It doesn’t make sense.

I wrote to the Times today. Again, it goes into the entire idea that somehow religion is a positive thing as opposed to sometimes a positive and sometimes a negative thing while looking at it objectively. There is no objective looking at religion, except for you and me [Laughing]. That’s why we do this. There’s no objective looking at religion as to whether it is good or bad because it is an assumption that it must be for the good. For what reason? I don’t know.

That’s the point. Why would you look to a book saying, “Slavery is okay,” when the book endorsed it?

Jacobsen: How has slavery played itself out into the current day? In that, American society has it off the books. It is no longer formalized. Yet, the manifestations of different outcomes over generations comes forward to the present day.

Engel: You can see it in how post-Civil War race relations in the United States played out. There is one of my favourite books of all time. The name of the book, winning a Pulitzer Prize for history, was called The Warmth of Other Suns by Isabel Wilkerson. In that book, the author talks about the Great Migration of African Americans from the South to points North and West from about 1900 through about 1975 or so, 1970 or so. So, the book is fantastic. You get a real picture of what life was like in the Jim Crow South for African Americans during that period, because you’re talking about the story of people leaving.

You start with ‘Why?” What made them make ths journey, which for many of them was very perilous in many ways, also, it was to places where blacks weren’t exactly welcome. Even in the North and in the West, it wasn’t as bad as the Jim Crow South, but it wasn’t a panacea of racial brotherhood either. So, you see for a lot of black people living in the South during this period. There was no more slavery. The Constitution had outlawed it.

However, life was not a whole lot better for them compared to under slavery.

There is the use of the police to enforce racial discrimination. All of this is post-slavery and early 1900s in the U.S. Many former slaves became sharecroppers, essentially staying on the land in the South where they had been slaves or their parents had been slaves – and having some sort of deal, not a very good one, with the person who owned the land who was always white.

So, the sharecropper, they were allowed to be on the land. The owner of the land would give them certain seeds to plant and things like that. In exchange for that, they would take a whole bunch of the crops with barely enough to subsist on. At the end of the year, they would total it all up asking, “Who owes who what? I gave you those crops and this stuff.”

Interestingly enough, it was always the black sharecropper who owed money. If they thought, “I want to leave. I have had enough of this.” The police would come, “You can’t leave.”

Jacobsen: That’s crazy.

Engel: This is a civil matter. This shouldn’t be a legal matter. But the police were a tool to enforce racism. This is post-slavery, etc. I think in coming forward to today; that’s what a lot of African American people in this country believe is happening in this country with good evidence. That the police are still being used as an instrument of the racial order, which keeps them at the bottom.

I think that’s an important factor to keep in mind when we looking at the unrest and the protests in cities today with regard to the police – all over the country too. It has been a function of the police for those sharecropping days in the country. The police have been used to enforce racial segregation and in hiring, etc.

That’s where you see this coming from slavery, where slavery is still something that affects this country. If it wasn’t for religion, for the fact that it was a religious term in many ways, I would echo what many say when they say slavery is America’s “original sin.”

Jacobsen: Two points of contact there for me. One is the comedy special entitled “8:46” released by the prominent American comedian Dave Chappelle who is carrying the torch from Richard Pryor. Richard Pryor’s opinion, not mine. He produced an unpolished and much shorter special covering police brutality, murder, protests in the streets, and so on, in the special.

This became a moderate cultural commentary piece amongst individuals including Candace Owens, Don Lemon, without much or any commentary by Laura Ingraham, where he mentioned all three in the special.

He made the same note as you. ‘It’s not then. It’s today.’ To the Cuomo point, he made a first and firm change in New York, which will come tied to funding for the police in New York with substantial reforms incorporating community transparency, community involvement, and deepening the degrees to which community in New York State communicate with the police and the police communicate with the public while having transparency and accountability on a level not seen for some time.

He was noting – Cuomo – that this was an issue for the last 40 to 50 years. Whether from leadership or popular truthtellers in American society, there’s been a limit hit to which the issues can’t be ignored as much. What are some other commentaries are changes in New York, for instance, that you notice, which would be considered of note for the conversation today?

Engel: Just what you just mentioned in terms of Cuomo, I think we’re seeing something changing and, hopefully, a harbinger of continuing growth and change with regards to race relations. If you look at the demonstrations about the Black Lives Matter, etc., a lot of white people out there and a lot of young white people out there. It gives me a lot of hope.

Not that this isn’t an African American movement, it should be led by them; it is led by them. But one thing I think people are realizing is that they don’t want to live in a society in which people are judged by the colour of their skin in any way, shape, or form. It’s white people saying this too, “We aren’t interested in privilege. We want to live in a society where everyone is treated equally.”

Also, I think we’re seeing a willingness to be open about the need for police reform. Being a cop is a hard job. There’s no question about it. But the police have been idolized in some ways for a long time, like the military. So, any ideas about how we can do public safety better have been quashed in the sense of “oh my god, you’re against the police!” It ends the conversation.

Hopefully, we aren’t seeing tis anymore. We are seeing a possibility of questioning the ways we go about achieving public safety. They don’t seem to be working well, especially for people of colour. Today, it seems as if you can question it, even a politician, without an immediate shutdown of the discussion because “you’re not a supporter of the police.”

This is something that I hope is coming out of this entire movement as a possibility because this way; it will enable us to move forward. The discussion isn’t shut down. It moves forward instead. Rather than say, “All police are monsters.” We still have to look at what they’re doing, how they’re doing it, and how we can be more equal in how we are policing people.

Jacobsen: Jon, thanks, man.

Engel: Scott, no problem, you take care.

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2022-05-14

Ask Professor Burge 3 – “Power is not a means; it is an end.”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/28

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about some of the religious diversity of America and growing concern on polarization across generations and within generations, and a threat to a democratic society in America.

*Interview conducted on July 20, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s talk about Christianity in general with the research for you. We’ll be talking about Evangelicals and Catholics. What are some interesting variables where you can parse these sub-demographic populations of the religious population in the United States?

Professor Ryan Burge: So, a lot of people don’t realize. We are religiously diverse and regionally diverse inside that diversity as well. For instance, places like New England are highly Catholic and highly mainline Protestant with Episcopal and United Methodist churches. If you go to the South, it is almost impossible to find a church in the counties. You will find a Southern Baptist church on every corner and a megachurch. If you go out West, Seattle and Portland and the Pacific Northwest, they are incredibly religiously unaffiliated.

With America, we are religious as a country, but not every state is religious and not every region is religious in the same way. People in SoCal, you can have a mix of Hispanic Catholics, White Evangelicals, Buddhists, Hindus, and Mormons who migrate from Utah. America is religiously diverse. The other thing, Catholic is New England is not the same as a Catholic in the South or in California or in the Midwest.

Regional influence plays a role in doctrine, theology, and partisanship. A Baptist living in Alabama will be a MAGA hat wearing Trump supporter. An Evangelical in New England will be more moderate on immigration and same-sex marriage. If you go out West, you will get a special type of Evangelical one might find in Colorado or Montana. Those Evangelicals are more Libertarian.

They don’t care about abortions or two guys getting married. They want a government staying out of the way and as small as possible. It is hard to create equivalences between this or that Evangelical or this or that Catholic. So, you can’t really make those equivalences.

Jacobsen: Millennials have more liberalized opinions. At the same time, there are islands or pockets of some of these demographics of Millennials who can be conservative and ultra-conservative in contrast to the general trends that we see over generations in America. What are those trends?

Burge: A piece came out in Social Forces, which is a sociology journal. On the issue of abortion, they found that Millennial Evangelicals and Millennial Protestant Christians as a whole are more conservative on abortion than Gen X when they were the same age or the Boomers when they were the same age. What is even more interesting to me, Millennials as a whole are more liberal on abortion than Gen X when they were the same age and Boomers when they were the same age.

So, we are seeing a polarization among Millennials. I think we will see this with Gen Z, but they are too young for the data so far. If you are Christian and young, you are incredibly conservative. If you are young and not a Christian, you are pretty liberal. The gap between religious and non-religious people is getting bigger with every generation. It is pretty scary. It makes it harder to govern and navigate social media, even relationships.

If you want to be a Christian and get along with people, good luck, your positions are now very far from their positions. It portends a scary future for America with polarization getting bigger with each successive generation.

Jacobsen: Is it an even weight in terms of the bifurcation?

Burge: So, younger people, we know are trending towards being not religiously affiliated. The data that we have shows Millennials and Gen Z are 35 to 40% religiously unaffiliated, which is much higher than Boomers at 20% or so. Gen X falls in the middle. What I think we are seeing here, for younger people, there’s a fusion in their minds between conservative politics and Christianity.

If you are going to be Christian, mainline or Evangelical, you’re going to have to be conservative because that’s what the predominant voice is in those traditions. If you aren’t conservative politically, then you are defaulted into being a None or religiously unaffiliated. Older generations did not grow up that way. You can be Democrat and a Catholic or a Democrat and even a Protestant 30 or 40 years ago.

Today, you can’t be those things. It is the fusion of conservative politics and Christianity with those two images fusing to the point of young people not realizing liberal Evangelicals out there, not many, but they’re out there. You don’t have to vote for Donald Trump if you want to go to church and want to believe in things.

That is drawing a lot of young people away from the church. It is the politics. They are okay with the theology, Jesus, the smells, and tbe bells. They just can’t deal with the religion because they see religion tied with conservative political ideology.

Jacobsen: What are some unexplained phenomena?

Burge: There are so many weird little things that I see. I constantly look at how Evangelicals behave by level of church attendance. A lot of people will say, “The Evangelicals who elected Trump are the Evangelicals who never go to church.” That is patently false. There is a clear positive relationship between church attendance and Trump voting amongst Evangelicals. Meaning, the more that you go to church; the more likely you are to vote for Trump in 2016 in the general election.

There is a weird thing happening, recently, where Evangelicals who go monthly, which is the middle category of 6. They consistently show lower levels of support for Trump than people who go one category less, which is once or twice every couple of years or who go multiple times a week. To me, those are the Evangelicals who are like, “Yes, I’m Evangelical. I’m not going to give up my Republican-roots.” I take it as a protest vote.

They back away from going to church. They are a weird aberration. I am still trying to figure out. Why haven’t they gone to church, yet? Why wouldn’t they walk away from that identity, yet?

Jacobsen: What do you think is the scariest trend of Millennials and Gen Z coming behind them with increasing polarity on religion and politics?

Burge: I think everything feeds back up to that. We talk about policy and things like that. Everything is downstream from partisanship now. I think the average person underestimates how important and how strong partisanship is in the lives of everybody. You pick a side. You pick a team. You pick a team on policy across the board. I know people who I grew up with who were not religious at all.

If you invited them to church, they got mad. Now, they post Christian memes on Facebook because they have become hardcore Republicans. They know to become Republican is to be hardcore Christian. The issue is how to navigate a society in which you think your party is all that’s good about America; and if the other party is elected, then that’s the end of America. I find this so poisonous in America.

Both sides do it, but especially Donald Trump. ‘If Joe Biden is elected, then there will be chaos in the streets. You won’t survive four years of that.’ We had four years of Obama. It is continual. How do you turn up the volume and raise the stakes every four years? People have gotten so entrenched; there is no way through.

Here is my bigger worry, the one thing that I worry about is when Donald Trump says things to questions like, “If you don’t get enough votes and lose the electoral college, will you recognize that?” He says, ‘We’ll see.’ That’s the scariest rhetoric that exists today.

Because the peaceful handing of power from one party to another party is literally the hallmark of democracy. Without it, you don’t have democracy. When George Washington willfully gave the presidency up, it was the most important point in the history of American democracy, because never do leaders willingly give up their power.

No one assumed that that would happen. For him to cling to power when it no longer belongs to him anymore, it would tear at the foundations of what American democracy is. It would put us in a very bad place, where people will be stuck with a cult of personality versus what they know to be right and the rule of law.

That’s not a place where I want to be.

Jacobsen: Professor Burge, thanks so much.

Burge: Always a pleasure, man!

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2022-05-14

Ask Jon 13 – A Story About U.S.: It’s All About Me, Me, Me

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/27

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about America now.

*Interview conducted on July 20, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What’s new with America in the midst of its pandemic now?

Jonathan Engel: I think there’s a lot of talk about states that open too quickly with this new surge of viruses in so many states here. A lot of them did, something else that is problematic. It is not only opening too quickly, but too many people to this as, “Oh, we don’t need to do anything. We can go out and have good times, open churches, bars, restaurants, with everyone going in.” Obviously, this isn’t the case.

Once you open, you have to be so careful. Otherwise, the spread will happen again. Here in New York City, we have done pretty well. We are still doing pretty well. Over the weekend, there were reports of young people congregating in bars and restaurants and without masks and being to close to each other without social distancing. It is a possibility of closing down again if we start to see cases rising. It is amazing to me that so many Americans are out there talking about not wanting to wear a mask, “It is about my freedom.” Look what your freedom has gotten you.

You cannot go to Europe. You cannot go to Canada. You want to come to the state of New York. You have to quarantine for 14 days when you get here. Does that sound like freedom? It doesn’t sound like freedom to me. Freedom isn’t lack of responsibility. To me, Fat Donny, out esteemed president is out there talking about how important it is about the anarchists.

People say, “I don’t have to obey the rules, obey the law.” If that is now anarchy, what is? He is out there saying, “They are a bunch of anarchists.” You cannot believe a thing that the man says. You have to figure this out. I do not want New York City to become like the rest of this country. We are in a spot now. I am still being very careful. I allowed myself a little leeway. I have been out to a couple supermarkets.

We are wiping out food when it gets here, not prepared from restaurants, but ordering from supermarkets with wiping the cans and the bottles with alcohol wipes before putting it away. We are still doing it. But I have allowed myself to go to a couple supermarkets. Everyone is wearing a mask. But you have to be careful. You have to be careful and follow the rules.

It seems so strange. In this country, for years, the Republican Party since Reagan or before have been pushing the line that government is bad. Reagan famously said, “The nine most terrifying words in the English language are: I’m from the government and I’m here to help.” It is about government as part of the problem rather than the solution. Sometimes, you need government. You really do.

What is government? When you think about it, it is our collective selves. We are all together. When the second Bush was elected president, he inherited a big budget surplus from Clinton. The first thing he said was, ‘I am going to do a tax cut and give this money back to the people. This isn’t our money. It is your money.’ I was upset. It is our money. The surplus is our collective money.

It was your job, Bush, to use it in a way that benefits the most people. We really have ignored our infrastructure in this country for way too long. Why not use that money on infrastructure project? It would take a belief and an understanding that government is a reflection of the entire population of all the people, not just a bunch of individuals. I’m sorry.

No matter how much you believe in freedom, we are not just a bunch of individuals. This is not the dark ages as a peasant with a plot of land and never having to see people. This is the 21^st century, as far as I can tell. You can talk about all the individual rights. Without an understanding of the collective good and having to participate in the collective good, and having to contribute to the collective good, you have individual rights, but your individual right isn’t permitting yourself to go out and kill other people. This is the big thing happening in this country.

We have done better in New York now. We have to be careful. Part of this is an understanding of living in a society and having an obligation to your fellow people, fellow Americans, fellow human beings, we all have an obligation like that. I think too many Americans put that aside and don’t even consider it. All they are interested in is “I have a right to…” It’s like, You have certain rights, and obligations too.”

Someone may say, “I love driving on the left side of the road. I lived in the UK. Why can’t I use my freedom?”” That is no more crazy than “Why do I have to wear a mask to protect people, potentially, if I have Covid-19 and give it to them?” How is this different than driving on the left side of the road? You could kill people. It is the lack of consideration of the needs of the many with those of the few.

Jacobsen: Jon [Laughing], thank you, you answered this with one question.

Engel: [Laughing] Well, I guess I had a lot to say.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] You’re welcome for the question.

Engel: [Laughing] Well, you know, it’s upsetting!

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2022-05-14

Interview with Ranil Prasad on Municipal Prayers

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/22

Ranil Prasad “is a fourth year political science student at UBC, where he studies the relationship between party platforms and legislative activities. In his spare time, he is the Premier of the non-partisan BC Youth Parliament, a youth service organization in which youth engagement and community serviced are emphasized. He also hosts (extremely exclusive!) dinner parties and is an avid Canucks fan. From July to October he worked on campaigns with the BCHA.” Here we talk about municipal prayers.

*Interview conducted on June 17, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, when we are talking about municipal prayers, what is defined as a prayer in this context? Why focus on municipal in particular?

Ranil Prasad: First, the definition of a prayer is much looser than one would expect. In that, it is more of a pornography definition of “I know it when I see it.” It is important for municipalities because they do not have parliamentary privilege. They do not have the privilege to say what they want pretty much. For example, in a council meeting, they can be sued compared to the federal and provincial levels of government. It is one of the reasons for suing the City of Saguenay, which applies at the municipal level.

Jacobsen: You are doing this through the BCHA and at the nation-wide level. What is the importance of organizational backing? What is the importance of doing this study across Canada to challenge this unfairness?

Prasad: So, something we like to say, “Humanism doesn’t end at the Rocky Mountains.” It is not in our interest or the members’ interests to not deal with these things or egregious violations of religion and government in other cities. We know there are some local people who would like to challenge it. It is our rationale for it. Also, we want to know what is happening in the rest of the country because it is in our interest as well. On institutional or organizational backing, we have built a reputation for ourselves based on the research output and legitimacy. We have a good reputation with other humanist organizations and with the media. So, we have added legitimacy through these.

Jacobsen: What are some of the – in terms of the research at it stands now – more egregious cases of violations of the Saguenay decision, for instance?

Prasad: Yes, it is interesting. This is urban bias coming through. However, I thought smaller municipalities were the ones violating it, and the larger ones were at the forefront. I have noticed a lot of large municipalities are the ones violating it and trying to use mental gymnastics to get over it. The most egregious is Hamilton, Ontario. They are a workers’ city with a strong progressive history. But they started off in a prayer. Interestingly, Hamilton prayers are overwhelmingly Christian and overwhelmingly by men. They did try to protect it. It is interesting. They know it is wrong. Frankly, they were trying o get out of it.

Jacobsen: What are some of the mental gymnastics, some of the excuses?

Prasad: They invite guests into the Council [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Prasad: I don’t think the court would agree this is a way to get out of the responsibility [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] What are some phrases or terms used in some of the prayers, which make them more or less Christian in terms of the output?

Prasad: A lot of this is based on key words. Things about Jesus, the Father, the Son, the Holy Spirit. These are key words to see if these are Christian are not, in other words. They invite ‘Pastor Smith’ from the ‘Second Baptist Church.’ These are signals.

Jacobsen: What are suggestive alternatives that would not make them in violation of the Saguenay decision?

Prasad: Number one, do not begin the meeting with a prayer, they should follow the law. Otherwise, it is illegal. If you want to follow the law, they can begin the meetings in a moment of silence. It can mean something different for everyone else. Also, we can give land acknowledgements. It is not something as in vogue in other parts of the country as in Vancouver. It is a good conversation to have; one of us should be leading it, for Indigenous voices regarding colonization. It is something for them to consider.

Jacobsen: When it comes to the number of municipalities studied, how many are we talking about here?

Prasad: So, there’s a lot [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Prasad: We’re doing the top 50 municipalities in every province across the country. It can be weird sometimes. Nova Scotia only has 48 municipalities in the entire place.

Jacobsen: When it comes to the magnitude of the number of municipalities studied by others and yourself, what are some of the most egregious cases, but the trend lines noticed throughout the country too?

Prasad: Cities like Hamilton and Halifax are violating the Saguenay decision.

Jacobsen: What about other than Ontario as the worst and Hamilton as the most egregious?

Prasad: There are differences with the inaugural council meeting session. Inaugural sessions are the first council meeting happening after an election. They’ll have a bagpiper bagpipe people into a room with much pomp and circumstance. You have people talking about different things. That’s what is interesting because most of the prayers happen at inaugural sessions. It is a way people can solemnize the occasion to add to the pomp and circumstance of the meeting. So, the vast majority of them happen in inaugural sessions.

Jacobsen: What about challenges to those majority inaugural session municipal prayers? In other words, what has been the reaction to challenges? What is the success rate if you happen to know it?

Prasad: I do not know if any municipalities have been challenged. Most quietly stopped doing it. They recognized that it was illegal, and should stop. I don’t know if any have had a Human Rights Commission challenge or lawsuit against them.

Jacobsen: Would citizens be able to take those formal challenges to court?

Prasad: I am pretty sure. If they want to bring a court case to directly challenge Saguenay through a formal lawsuit, then the municipality would have to stop.

Jacobsen: To be clear, the Saguenay decision set a precedent putting the challenge on the side of people who would be more freethought oriented. It places the side of the court, in general, or the side of the law on the side of freethinkers.

Prasad: Yes, absolutely. So, it was stated as a democratic imperative.

Jacobsen: Wow.

Prasad: [Laughing] If we do not have the state neutrality, then we don’t really have a true democracy. From Ontario, I have the list. The real big ones, Markham, Kitchener, Richmond Hill, Burlington, and Hamilton are the big ones.

Jacobsen: For the readers who may not know, who are the worst in all of the other provinces and the territories as a shorthand of the research for them?

Prasad: Most of them are small towns. It would be, in British Columbia, Victoria, for sure. That’s the most relevant. All of the big cities in Alberta with the worst as Wetaskiwin. Population like 12,000 or something. Saskatchewan, it is pretty good – mostly small towns. And most small towns do pretty good. The big place is Kindersley. In Manitoba, it is definitely Winnipeg. The biggest, as noted, in Ontario is Hamilton. We skipped Quebec and went to Nova Scotia. We are looking for French-speaking volunteers.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Ranil.

Prasad: No problem!

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2022-05-14

Ask Professor Burge 2 – Research Questions and Answers, and Themes

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/21

Finally, I am a pastor in the American Baptist Church, having served my current church for over thirteen years.”

Here we talk about some of the research questions, the answers, and the themes following from them.

*Interview conducted on June 17, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We will focus on three things. The research question, the research question and some of the outcomes of it, and then some of the deeper meanings of some of those thematic elements of it. What were the main research questions asked in the set of research on the various religious and non-religious groups with an emphasis for the audience today on the Nones or the non-religious?

Professor Ryan Burge: Social science is just starting to tackle the idea that the Nones are not a monolithic bloc. We break them into 3 groups. There are different types of Nones. This is based on a survey question about present religion with 11 options: Protestant, Catholic, Mormon, Orthodox, Buddhist, Hindu, Muslim, and Jewish, and the last 3 options are Atheist, Agnostic, and “Nothing in particular.” So, how you respond to the question puts you in the None group, if you say, “Atheist,” “Agnostic,” or “Nothing in particular,” then you’re in the None category. They’re in the None category. But when we look at the differences between “Atheist,” “Agnostic,” or “Nothing in particular,” we find those groups are dramatically different from political partisanship, views of abortion, political activity, a lot of those are different on those things. Yet, we see them as a bloc as N-O-N-E-S, but they have differences based on the identification within it.

Jacobsen: Some of these demographics will have political view fallout. In that, if someone takes a religious stance, it is seen as a moral stance. That will impact social issues, political issues, and human rights issues. What were some of the findings around those differences of social, political, and human rights opinions in this research between, for instance, the atheists, agnostics, and the nothing in particulars, and, as far as I could tell, with White Evangelicals and Mormons?

Burge: Yes, on almost every measure, if we look at a public opinion question White Evangelicals are the furthest right in the religious spectrum; atheists are the furthest left on the religious spectrum. If we say to White Evangelicals, “Racial problems in the U.S. are rare, isolated situations,” 38% say this is the case. 9.6% of atheists say this is the case. You see this breakdown often. White Evangelicals take the more conservative positions with abortion, marriage, racism, and the police. White Evangelicals are the most conservative and Republican groups. Atheists are the most liberal. Agnostics are one or two steps away from them. Nothing in particular fall in the middle of the spectrum on many of the issues. Atheists are liberal; White Evangelicals are conservative.

Jacobsen: Does this play into the political context of the United States now?

Burge: The Democratic Party has a big problem now. It is the party of everyone else. Republicans are the party of White Christians. While the Democratic Party is none of the above, you’ve got Black Protestants who are theologically conservative and politically liberal. Atheists are theologically liberal and politically liberal. The theological unions are just mashed together. It is easier to be a Republican today. You only have to hit “Christian, White.” If Democrat, you have to hit all these different things. A democrat has to appeal to a wider demographic; it is harder than simply appealing to White Evangelicals.

Jacobsen: For those who are in Canada, there is a large contingent who are fans of Margaret Atwood. The first president of Humanist Canada was Dr. Henry Morgentaler almost singlehandedly won the reproductive rights for women. This is a tradition here. Also, it is a subtle and highly intelligent author’s literary works with Margaret Atwood, who has been hugely impactful. How is a religion of the various views mentioned – White Evangelical and Mormons versus atheists and agnostics – on women’s bodily autonomy and abortion? This is a political issue. Fundamentally, it is a human right issue.

Burge: In the United States, we had this interesting thing happen. In the 1970s, abortion was something Republicans and Democrats agreed on it. Even religious groups agreed, for instance, the Southern Baptist Convention is the largest Evangelical organization in America today. They said, ‘We don’t love the ruling. But it is a decision a woman needs to make with her doctor.” It has been ‘weaponized’ or utilized as a wedge to push Evangelicals to the edge with the ‘powers that be.’ With abortion, we se an interesting thing. Religious people are less willing to extend abortion rights. But the share of Republicans who are in favour of abortion in the case of rape and incest is lower than it has ever been. It used to be 85%. It is still relatively high at roughly 70%. While at the same time, the Democratic Party driven by irreligious people without any religious affiliation have become more permissive of abortion in any circumstance, e.g., doesn’t have the money, doesn’t like the man, etc. We have seen them become more supportive of abortion across the board. It is important to understand this across political life in America. A lot of Evangelicals are pro-life. Very few Americans, only 1/3^rd of Evangelicals in American want to make abortion completely illegal. So, the majority of White Evangelicals are okay with abortion in some circumstances. It is the loudest voices on abortion are the most extreme voices on abortion. Those ones opposed to abortion in any circumstance are the ones making the most noise. The reality: White Evangelicals are opposed to abortion. The caveat is they have a nuanced view, while being right of center. While your atheists and agnostics are in favour of abortion across the board, even for not having enough money or not wanting more kids, things like that.

Jacobsen: How does this 1/3^rd compare to atheists, agnostics, and Black Protestants?

Burge: [Laughing] Super interesting, Black Protestants’ views on the Bible are almost the same as White Evangelicals. The Democratic Party is so interesting because it has to appeal to Black Protestants who are also opposed to same-sex marriage while appealing to atheists and agnostics who are in favour of same-sex marriage. It is hard to appeal to Black Protestants who are important in Democratic politics, while saying to atheists and agnostics, “We are the party for you.” Groups vote for the democrats because the Republicans are a worse option for them, whether Black Protestants, atheists, or agnostics. The Democratic Party doesn’t do this perfectly on every party, whether economics or social justice, because it becomes the party of default; they’re not Republicans. It makes it hard to run for president.

Jacobsen: What does this mean in terms of the deeper themes coming out of this research? What are we taking home if this was an academic presentation, as the message?

Burge: Speaking academically, we need to sit down and think carefully as to what it means to be an atheist and to be an agnostic. They are relatively small, about 6% of the population each. To take on the “atheist” label, it means to take on all the baggage. Americans have very negative views of atheists. In fact, there are on the most disliked groups in America today. Americans like Congress more than they like atheists.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Burge: To take on the label, it means that you’re willing to take on all the junk going on with the negative things. In America, I have not seen polls on this. My thinking would be agnostics are disliked, but not as disliked as atheists are, for instance. We need to think carefully about what makes people go all the way and say, “I am an atheist.” We know; they are a very special American. They are very educated, have high incomes, are very engaged politically, and are very liberal. I would say this is a potent cocktail if you’re a Democrat in America today running in an urban district with a lot of atheists. It becomes a voting bloc for you. You can rely on it. As they grow in size, and as the stigma goes away, as it is, it means those people will have an easier time getting elected saying that they are atheist and getting people to vote and campaign for them. It is not something that we have seen before in American politics. Not a single politician has ever run for Congress and won on the backs of atheists and agnostics. We will see this moving forward because they are more vocal, larger, more active. We will see candidates realize this is the way that they get there. It is big from an academic standpoint and a policy standpoint. We will see a shift in American politics with openly atheist candidates who will try to appeal to atheist voters. Something that we haven’t seen before.

Jacobsen: Sir, thank you for your time.

Burge: Absolutely.

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2022-05-14

Ask Takudzwa 31 – Time Capsule to “Cornelius Press”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/20

Takudzwa Mazwienduna is the informal leader of Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and a member of the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe. This educational series will explore secularism in Zimbabwe from an organizational perspective, and more. Here we talk about Article 61(3) of the Zimbabwean Constitution.

*Interview conducted on July 20, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Article 61(3)(a) of the Zimbabwean Constitution (2013) states, “Broadcasting and other electronic media of communication have freedom of establishment, subject only to State licensing procedures that…” I want to break some of this down some more. What are the main forms of “electronic media of communication” in Zimbabwe?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: These would include radio stations that were once underground because they wouldn’t get licenses and online news publications.

Jacobsen: What does “freedom of establishment” mean here?

Mazwienduna: It means the right to get a license and legally exist as a media company in Zimbabwe. This was impossible before the 2013 constitution making process.

Jacobsen: How were “electronic media” and the “freedom of establishment” important for the foundation of Cornelius Press and for the media relevant to the Zimbabwean Secular Alliance and the Humanist Society of Zimbabwe?

Mazwienduna: We started Cornelius Press in South Africa which is a lot more liberal when it comes to media policy than Zimbabwe.

Jacobsen: Article 61(3)(a) of the Zimbabwean Constitution (2013) states, “…are necessary to regulate the airwaves and other forms of signal distribution; and…” If the government is a military state, what does “regulate the airwaves and other forms of signal distribution” mean in Zimbabwe? How are the rights and freedoms of expression curtailed in the context of a military state and then in a country with a renewed constitution (2013) as an effort to escape its colonial history?

Mazwienduna: The Zimbabwean military seldom respects the law. This regulation is one of those loopholes that the government loves pointing to after abused journalists take it to court.

Jacobsen: If still leaving the colonial history, what does this mean for the differential application of military force against protesting white Zimbabweans and black Zimbabweans if at all?

Mazwienduna: The 2013 constitutional reforms were a sham for the most part. They respect military force in Zimbabwe now rather than the law. Even the soldiers usually let you know when you try to refer to the constitution while they are abusing you, “The law doesn’t work here. You go to the police if you want to talk about the law, not here.”

Jacobsen: Article 61(3)(b) of the Zimbabwean Constitution (2013) states, “…are independent of control by government or by political or commercial interests.” Regarding (61(3)(a) and (b), how are the “State licensing procedures” fair and unfair?

Mazwienduna: The bureaucracy and corruption surrounding the licensing process make it very unfair. Nothing is that straight forward with the Zimbabwean government.

Jacobsen: What do you see as a way forward to bring the reality closer to the constitution of 2013?

Mazwienduna: Civic awareness should be raised and Zimbabwean citizens should unapologetically inquire about constitutionalism with every government policy or operation. They should pressure government institutions to be accountable and daily atrocities by the military should be reported and condemned

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: It’s always a pleasure Scott.

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2022-05-14

Ask Takudzwa 30 – If You Can Hear Me, Then You Can or Can’t Heed Me, But Don’t Silence Me

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/18

Here we talk about the freedom of expression within the context of the Zimbabwean 2013 Constitution.

*Interview conducted on July 18, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The fundamental right to the freedom of expression comes from several important documents and formed, naturally, as a consequence of international (‘globalist’) integration with many nations coming together, which can be influenced by intra-national social dynamics and political life – as the American case shows now, live. What have been some of the intra-national contexts in which Zimbabwe struggled to attain the rights for freedom of expression?

Takudzwa Mazwienduna: The most notable intra national context that has been an impediment to the freedom of expression in Zimbabwe has to be repressive legislation from the colonial times that is still used today. The Zimbabwean constitution has since been reformed but it is more or less irrelevant today since we are literally a military state. The government typically sends soldiers to terrorize citizens who protest or oppose it.

Jacobsen: How were the international contexts, e.g., the United Nations, important for providing a recipe or a framework for provision of the fundamental right of freedom of expression to the Zimbabwean people?

Mazwienduna: They pressured for the 2013 constitution reform. They however have no control on the abuse of these constitutional rights by the state using the military today.

Jacobsen: Article 61(2) of the Zimbabwean Constitution (2013) states, “Every person is entitled to freedom of the media, which freedom includes protection of the confidentiality of journalists’ sources of information.” What is this reflecting in the life of the media of Zimbabwe?

Mazwienduna: Those were some of the constitutional reforms of 2013. The government seldom respects them today and journalists continue to be abducted or arbitrarily arrested. A famous case is that of Itai Dzamara.

Jacobsen: You noted some of the problems for journalists in the past. How about now? What are the issues facing journalists in Zimbabwe now?

Mazwienduna: While their rights have been acknowledged in the constitution, the military force throws it all down the gutter. Journalists continue to be terrorized and victimized today.

Jacobsen: Even with Article 61(2) of the Zimbabwean Constitution, the confidentiality of the journalists’ sources is paramount; unless, one is doing an expose and the source wants to, as someone said recently to me, “Go nuclear.” I find this inclusion in Article 61 subsection (2) interesting because I note the precision of the statements targeting journalists and confidentiality, as well as “sources of information,” i.e., the individuals who are providing information and the data itself. What were the prominent cases involved in the inclusion of this part of the Zimbabwean Constitution? I am fascinated by this inclusion above.

Mazwienduna: There was a case of Baba Jukwa who was like the Zimbabwean version of wikileaks during the Mugabe era. He was a government insider leaking a lot of sensitive information and his court case made media waves when they finally captured him. He might have been working with some government factions however which is probably the reason he got off easy.

Jacobsen: How do journalists in Zimbabwe protect their sources?

Mazwienduna: They seldom mention their sources, but it has a downside with relation to fake news. It is common to hear several unverifiable claims citing anonymous government sources in a single week.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Takudzwa.

Mazwienduna: Always a pleasure Scott.

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2022-05-13

Interview with Rebekah Woods – Former Message Believer

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/15

Rebekah Woods is a Canadian writer, settled on the coast with her spouse and beautiful toddler who fills the hours with challenges unequaled by the healing his life brings. Originally from Ontario, her father moved his family near a large Message Believer’s church when she was ten months old. Her siblings include five brothers and one sister. The struggle to sort memories on paper began in early 2012, but addiction held her back. Clean living away from illicit drugs started November 16, 2016, and continues this present day. She completed a memoir in February 2020. Now her goals are to publish her work, uplift others, publicly speak and build the role of Human Rights Activist. Woods is spiritual/agnostic. You can follow her blog www.rebekahcwoods.ca. Here we talk about The Message of William Marrion Branham in regards to women.

*Interview conducted on July 15, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s focus on the theistic aspects of justification of abuse within the cult of The Message of the late William Marrion Branham. Many will ask themselves, including myself earlier, “What is The Message? Who was William Branham?” Well, dear readers, he’s dead, while The Message theology continues. No need to give a fully outlined account here. What is the relevant theology of The Message and attitude of Branham towards women?

Rebekah Woods: Hi Scott. Thanks for having me. The Message theology states that a woman is below a man, and caused him to sin. They may speak well of their obedient wives, but as a female and a member, should you err for a moment, you could suffer severe consequences. There is little hope crossing the line of mercy. Like me, they could abuse you, shame you, and cast you out.

Jacobsen: Can you provide some examples in the theology?

Woods: Eve, the first woman, committed sin by seducing a Serpent, the fruit reference just a metaphor. She’s by nature evil and perverted. Also, Jezebel wore makeup and God fed her to the dogs. Branham envisioned souls lost in Hell, moaning, tormented, and wearing green eye shadow. That’s the punishment for modern femininity.

Jacobsen: Can you provide some examples in the speeches, homilies, or statements of Branham?

Woods: In his words, no one is designed to stoop so low and filthy. He’s encouraged his followers to call women Dog Meat to their faces. He’s been quoted saying that any woman who comes home drunk to her husband isn’t worth a good clean bullet. Branham disapproved of alcohol but I don’t recall such harsh suggestions for the men. He suggested beating his daughter with a 2 by 4 til her hide fell off though I’m afraid in this case, boys suffered equally.

Jacobsen: Branham taught a doctrine called the Serpent Seed. What was the personal experience for you?

Woods: My cult experiences began as a child and ended in my mid-teens when a Message preacher snapped scissors in my face, yelling Dog Meat! and came at me with his crutches; I heard the doctrine preached but because of my age, was only expected to obey. Upon reading John Collins’ newest book, The Preacher Behind The White Hoods, I’m able to scope its Klan origins and shocking purpose. Growing up, it disturbed me we couldn’t marry any race we chose, and that mixed children were frowned upon.

Jacobsen: How did this life experience limit worldview inside of The Message about women, girls, and yourself?

Woods: The Message limited worldview in complex ways, more so than a single doctrine. There’s too many to count. Yes, we were the Chosen Seed, we were Bride, yet born female had its disadvantages. There was a general feeling of male superiority. Women could not make life decisions without a man – either her father or her spouse. I didn’t experience the racial side of it because I am Caucasian.

Jacobsen: How did you liberate yourself?

Woods: I’ve always had a curious mind and even from a small child, knew something didn’t seem right. As a girl, my mother told me leaving meant the world would abduct me, rape me, or that I’d sell my body. Part of what she said was right, seeing that I was vulnerable, broke, and uneducated. That being said, I’d already experienced Hell inside the cult and at least the Hell outside had a taste of freedom. So I jumped. I dialed a radio show host in the middle of the night and explained that my family held me hostage with baseball bats. She directed me to Battered Women’s Services.

Jacobsen: What is life like for you now?

Woods: Life is beautiful, imperfect, and safe. I made a life-changing decision in November 2016 to get clean and keep my pregnancy. I am blessed with a loving spouse and father of my child who also grew up in the same Message Church. My toddler son has healed my deepest wounds in ways I can’t describe. Then, I completed a memoir of my secluded childhood and the dangers I faced thereafter. It was the wildest ride! PTSD can sometimes impede my everyday life; however, I believe I have a purpose. I host a small blog, strivetoinspire others on my journey and update those who are interested. They can follow me at www.rebekahcwoods.ca

Jacobsen: How many women and girls simply never get out and remain bound to the rantings and theology of a dead preacher?

Woods: To my knowledge, a fair majority. I’m very grateful to the ladies who left and have joined together. We’ve found our voices and reclaimed our power. Now I deeply wish that Message women will feed their curiosity and hear us!

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Rebekah.

Woods: Thank you very much, Scott.

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2022-05-13

Ask Jon 12 – The Fourth of July

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/07

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about July 4th, public safety and health, religion (naturally), education, and more.

*Interview conducted on July 6, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We finished the July 4^th celebration for America’s Independence Day. We finished Canada Day on July 1^st. Some celebrate it. Others do not. I want focus more today on the American context. What is it?

Jonathan Engel: A quick thing talking about some people not celebrating Canada Day in Canada. In the United States, there are many people who do not celebrate July 4^th in America. Frederick Douglass, the great philosopher and orator, talked about how the 4^th of July does not represent freedom for black people in this country. That was pretty interesting. Yes, here in New York City, beautiful New York City, they were different than they usually are. I live near Union Square in New York City in Manhattan. I have lived in the same building for the last 35 years. Every one of those 35 years until this year, my wife and I, kids, and friends go to the roof and watch the Macy’s 4^th of July fireworks. They didn’t do that this year. Primarily, they didn’t want people to watch them. New York was really the first place to get clobbered by coronavirus. One, it is the crossroads of the world. We get so many visitors from so many places. Before we knew what was happening, we were infected. Also, because we live on top of each other, we are millions of people [Laughing] living in a pretty small area. We jam together on buses, on subways, and jam together in stores. We live in apartment buildings that have people constantly in contact on elevators and hallways and lobbies. It was understandable that we got hit before anyone else did. But New York, right now, is one of the few places in the United States has really “flattened the curve.” That’s because we’ve done what we were supposed to do, what the science says you need to do.

What Europe found out, we should wear masks and practice social distancing. We’ve stayed inside. In fact, we are still not fully open. Many states opened up a month ago. We still don’t have indoor dining, indoor bars, allowed. Even though, we have flattened the curve. We are going to go very slowly to reopen these things, as we have seen what happened in other places. I got the sense of this on the 4^th of July. There is a green market, a local farmer’s market, in the middle of New York City. Believe it or not.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: Vendor from Long Island, Westchester, or New jersey, who come in 5 days a week and sell their stuff. My wife and I went into the green market to buy some stuff. They used to put out their stuff. If you wanted apples, then they would have crates. You pick the ones that you want and go out and pay for it. Now, they don’t let you do that anymore. You tell them, “I want 5 Granny Smith apples.” They put them in a bag. You pat for them. Everyone in the green market had masks. All vendors had a sign, “No masks, no service.” We have stayed pretty good. There have been a few times that I have seen people without masks on the street. For the most part, a solid 90% of people wear masks. I read something the other day. A guy from South Carolina, where it is spiking, the virus. He said that he lives near the resort area of Hilton Head, South Carolina and let him take a walk around. He didn’t go out for long, about 90% of the people were not wearing masks. So, we take it seriously here. New York is one of the least religious states in the country. New York City is not a very religious city, as cities go. Here in New York, we like to do what Tom Friedman said, which should be Biden’s motto: respect science, respect nature, and respect each other.

It requires a belief in science and nature, “No amount of prayer will protect anybody from it.” We need to respect science, and each other, when you live on top of each other. Paul Simon had a song, “One man’s ceiling is another man’s floor”:

It’s just apartment house rules
So all you ‘partment house fools
Remember: one man’s ceiling
Is another man’s floor
One man’s ceiling
Is another man’s floor

It’s true. You have got to respect people who are right next to you. You can’t say, “I can do whatever I want.” You don’t want to be blasting music and doing step-dancing at 3 o’clock in the morning because there is somebody underneath you. Our belief and freedom encompass responsibility to those around us. It is so necessary and required, but not in many states. Yesterday, in The New York Times, in Texas, it is much more religious and much more conservative. The governor of Texas who is a Republican and conservative recently put out an edict saying, ‘Everybody, you have to wear a mask outside in Texas.’ He is getting pilloried, “How dare you stomp on my freedom!”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: “You can’t tell me what to do.” Government tells you all the time. It is good that it does. Government tells you to take a hunk of your money in the form of taxes. Government tells you you can’t speed in a residential area. Government says it’s not your right o drive if you’re blind drunk. Even the most elemental things, if you walk into the store, you can’t walk out of the store without stuff that you didn’t pay for, ‘What about my freedom?” No! If we are going to have any kind of civilized society with respect for other people, respecting each other, we are going to have to have certain rules. In a pandemic, one rule might be wearing a mask if you go outside. HERE IN New York, we have, for the most part, most people, not all, in New York City understand that. When I live in an apartment building with 30 stories and 270 apartments in it, there are signs when you walk into the elevator. One side says, “Two people per elevator only.” For a while, it was only one. The other side says, “Please respect neighbours and building staff and wear a mask in all common areas.” I have not seen a single person disobey that. I am pretty sure. People in New York City love freedom as much as people in Texas. Like Freidman said, though, “Respect science, respect nature, and respect each other.” That’s why I think even with the worst outbreak in the country; we have it under control. While in other parts, it has skyrocketed.

Jacobsen: What other factors are we not taking into account when we think about the impacts of religious faith on some of the issues within a pandemic? We were noting with Massachusetts. It is the most educated and the least religious; Mississippi, it is the most religious and the least educated. Those don’t seem like accidents or coincidences. Although, they are only correlations. We have situations in which people will replace knowledge of the world, facts, with sensibilities, with unevidenced belief structures. When crises happen, they will invoke them. When they invoke them, it leaves them adrift in dealing with the real situation. To take on the garbs of faith, it is, in many cases, equivalent, in terms of actual good, to doing nothing.

Engel: Yes! Absolutely, what they are doing is tending to their emotions and not to their intellect, because it might make them feel better to think, “God will protect me.” It is tending to the scariness, ‘I do not want to be scared anymore. So, I am going to fall back on the things that do not make me scared anymore.’ It is using the emotions and not the intellect. It is easier to just believe, but it is not going to help you. Yes, you see this. Some of this is anecdotal. I would love to see real research done on this. From the anecdotes, so many religious people have died or have had loved ones died because they said, “Of course, we are going to go to our church service.” By the way, church services are one of the biggest superspreader events. People are sitting close together, a large group of people. There’s a lot of singing and chanting, etc. Yet, the pressure to open up in so many parts of the United States has been from religious groups saying, “It is essential. We are an essential service. People need this. They need their comfort.” Of course, people need to be comforted and need to see positive things, but they need reality. They need to be told the truth. I finished reading a book by Erik Larson, The Splendid and the Vile: A Saga of Churchill, Family, and Defiance During the Blitz.

It is about Churchill and the Battle of Britain, when Churchill spoke to the British people. He told them the truth when the blitz was underway. Hi oratory was underway. ‘We will fight them on the beaches. We will fight them on the streets.” He inspired people while telling them the truth, ‘This si going to be really bad. This is going to be really hard. It is going to take all our resources, emotional and physical, to combat.’ But he told them the truth. People may need comfort. But when you say, “Don’t worry, go out there, don’t wear a mask, don’t social distance, sing out here in the choir, God will protect you.” They are not telling them the truth. So, people are dying. This country, now, is pitiable. It is really depressing. We really are pitiable because we don’t have the level of critical thinking and critical analysis that you need. That human beings need to make the decisions in order to protect themselves and protect everybody else from this illness.

Jacobsen: What do you think about this re-funnelling of finances to religious institutions in the United States instead of the intended good of public services to slow the spread of coronavirus?

Engel: Oh, it’s horrible. It is a never-ending fight. My father was one of the plaintiffs in the court case in 1972, which outlawed prayer in public school. It was a fight to maintain the separation of church and state ever since. To look back at the founding documents of the country, if you look at the people who founded this country, James Madison wrote the Bill of Rights, the first ten amendments to the Constitution; so, he wrote the First Amendment in which it says, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion, or prohibiting the free exercise thereof…” Back in the day, he said the separation of church and state is to keep forever from our shores the bloody battles that have poured blood on the soils of Europe for centuries. He said, ‘Here’s the reason for separation of church and state.’ People now say, ‘What are you talking about separating church and state? I don’t see this in the Constitution.’ These are, basically, Christian nationalists who want this to be an avowedly Christian country against our founders. Pouring resources into churches and religious schools, you can see how this hurts us in a situation like this because people don’t understand science. If you don’t believe in evolution, you can’t understand biology. If you can’t understand biology, then you can’t understand science at all. In a way, it is going backwards. It is a tremendous battle in this country. I belong to an organization called Americans United for the Separation of Church and State. It exists because there are people who see: when government puts money into religion, society goes backwards.

Jacobsen: Jon! Thank you so much for your time.

Engel: Okay, Scott, speak to you soon!

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2022-05-13

Interview with the G.D. Basson – Administrator, “The Angry African Atheist”

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/01

G.D. Basson is the Administrator of “The Angry African Atheist.” Here we talk about the background, religion, and how to become involved in some of the community in South Africa.

*Interview conducted on July 1, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was geographic, cultural, linguistic and religious personal and family background?

G.D. Basson: I was born and raised as a white, English speaker in South Africa, mom is Methodist and dad is a bad catholic. Sunday school was rather short-lived and I didn’t even get to my first holy communion, mostly due to my parents being sick of having to get up early on Sunday mornings with a hangover. The church was then relegated to Easter and Christmas until that eventually fell away too.

Jacobsen: How did these influence you growing up?

Basson: Privileged is probably the most accurate word to use, I grew up in a loving home and was taught to be fairly critical in my thinking. Thanks to my parent’s lazy religious outlook I was able to explore religions from a relatively early age.

Jacobsen: When did religion become less tenable as a life philosophy for you?

Basson: I started questioning religion in early high school, having understood that it was my eternal soul that was at stake I spent a fair amount of time researching different religions, from the Abrahamic to Zen Buddhism and everything in between. At the time I settled on LaVeyan Satanism though can honestly say that this was more to be different than actual honest belief. From there I had some issues with drugs and was sent to rehab, as tends to be the case in South Africa their “treatment” was very much based off of the narcotics anonymous program and I found myself becoming a bible bashing young-earth creationist. This continued for around 2 or 3 years before realising that I had simply replaced one unhealthy obsession with another. I re-evaluated the evidence and came to the same conclusion I had as a teenager, namely that there is not sufficient evidence in any deity to allay my doubts.

Jacobsen: What are some benefits of having an online community page for atheists?

Basson: Living in a country where the vast majority of the population believes in the Christian doctrine in one form or another, along with the persecution that comes with that situation can leave one feeling alone and unappreciated. communities online are a way to join like-minded people together.

Jacobsen: Why found “The Angry African Atheist”? What is its current purpose, scope of operation, and reach?

Basson: The purpose of founding The Angry African Atheist is to promote healthy discourse surrounding current events affecting Africans in general and South Africans specifically using satire and humour to engage with members. In terms of scope, I am the only person working on this project, unfortunately having to juggle a day job has made this a lot more difficult than anticipated. In terms of reach, the page currently has 74 likes but would obviously like to expand that exponentially. The long term plan is to make a career out of writing about current events in a funny, satirical and engaging way in order to highlight injustice and impart the truth.

Jacobsen: What do you hope for its growth and extension in reach as we move into 2021?

Basson: This is a difficult question to answer. what I’d like is the opportunity to write full-time, producing content on a daily basis and assisting the atheist community in Africa in a meaningful way. unfortunately juggling a day job makes this an exceptionally difficult task. realistically I’d like to produce more content and be able to at least start earning a fair income from ads etc. once I am able to do that I would be more comfortable looking at the possibility of quitting the day job and committing myself full time to this.

Jacobsen: How can people get involved in the freethinking African community?

Basson: We tend to be a friendly bunch, unfortunately, there isn’t much of an offline support structure in this country. The best place to start would be to join a few Facebook groups.

Jacobsen: What are other recommendations of webpage, groups, or people to keep an eye out for?

Basson: South African Atheist Movement https://www.facebook.com/groups/SAAM1 is a good resource with a diverse and amicable membership. The Angry African Atheist also has a blog, which can be found here: http://theangryafricanatheist.blogspot.com.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mr. Basson.

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2022-05-13

Ask Jon 11 – A Misstake

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/07/01

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about Mississippi, the Confederacy, Reconstruction, and more.

*Interview conducted on June 29, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, this is going to leave New York a bit, not only New York City, but New York State. You had some considerations of confederate representation in a flag and then the representation of religious language or the God concept in association with those. What is going on in the state of Mississippi? Why is this a problem?

Jonathan Engel: The state of Mississippi was the last state in the union to retain a piece of the Confederacy on its state flag. In the early 20^th century, people in the South who never got over the Civil War started carrying and showing the confederate battle flag. I am not sure as to why it is that flag as opposed to the Confederacy, but this was a flag brought into battle when confederates fought American troops. It has become a big symbol of oppression for a lot of people and white supremacy for a lot of people. So, it has become really controversial. A few years ago, the state of South Carolina agreed that they would no longer fly the flag in the state capital alongside the American flag. They took it down. It was a big deal. The last state that kept doing this was Mississippi, which had a quarter of its state flag that confederate battle flag. So, every time an African American walks into the Mississippi state legislature. They see the state flag and think, “Great, I am a member of this state. Yet, they are flying a flag in a positive way the enslavement of my ancestors.” Obviously, it is an affront, but, to me, as an American. I regard the Confederacy as a treasonous organization. That tried to destroy the United States. It took up arms against American soldiers.

There has been pressure, a lot of rethinking in this country, regarding the Black Lives Matter movement and in terms of racial equality, etc. So, they had a vote over the weekend in Mississippi. They voted that that would no longer be their flag. That, from now on, that flag would no longer be their flag. They would design anew one. The law that passed was saying the new flag only not contain the confederate flag and somewhere on its design, “In God We Trust.” Now, in God we trust, it became the United States national motto in the 1950s as an anti-communist thing, as opposed to the original motto of the country, which is E Pluribus Unum. It means “Out of many, one.” So, they’ve done that. This is the law. I heard about this. I said, “Is it really progress? A lot of liberals and progressives, I understand why, but I think they’ve forgotten something. They are celebrating, “Oh boy, the state of Mississippi is finally getting with the program by getting rid of the confederate flag.” I go, “But yeah, they’ve gone from disrespecting African Americans to disrespecting freethinkers like me.”

Not everybody trusts in some mythical deity. There are quite a few people in this country who don’t trust in it. Unfortunately, we don’t – as the saying goes – punch our weight. There are a lot of people who are secular nonbelievers in this country, but it is kind of taboo to come out and say it. So, we don’t punch our weight in terms of, for example, the discussion happening now. It is about Joe Biden and who the Vice President will be in the coming election. Some African Americans are saying, “It should be an African American.” He has already promised that it will be a woman. I don’t hear anybody looking to say, “We need to get our base of freethinkers.” Part of this is due to atheists not being too organized. They say organizing atheists is like herding cats. There’s not too much organization, but, still, this bothers me. That my fellow progressives, my fellow liberals, would look at a law like that and say, “Hey, wait a minute, okay, great. You’re getting rid of the battle flag. But why are you disrespecting the fellow freethinkers in this country?”

Jacobsen: If you take an individual who harbours the amount of pride, not in the sense of hubris, but a personal sense of worth in a confederate history for them, they engage in the various re-enactments or the inverse history imaginary re-enactments in which the confederates win. What does this kind of representation in a flag mean to you? Furthermore, if they are religious or have an adherence to some form of God concept, what does that mean to them? In other words, this is taking the other point of view.

Engel: It is very important for people to know and remember that many of the confederate symbolism, which people say is important to them, etc. Those things became popular among the average people in the South long after the Civil War ended. This was post-Reconstruction. When the Civil War first ended, the United States of America put in place a number of reforms in southern states to enforce the rights of black people to vote. Black people were elected to public office. Then a massive backlash took place, the northern states decided it was better placating the South and allowing them to overturn Reconstruction, so began the era of Jim Crow. The use of the confederate flag and the monuments came from that era, not immediately post-Civil Era, but more like the early 20^th century, when the Klu Klux Klan formed and whites in the South said, “We are moving back to the way it was.” Many northern whites decided, “It is more trouble than it’s worth. Let them do what they want.” When people say, “This is my heritage.” I want to know, “Heritage for what?” Heritage from the time of the early 20^th century when black people got lynched on a regular basis. That’s what you’re really defending here. Even the defence of the South, I don’t see how you can come up with any kind of defence of slavery as an institution.

In Nazi Germany, after WWII, West Germany after WWII, Germans did a real self-reflection about the horrors, but that never happened in the American South. It was, ‘No, we’re proud.” If you saw people with a Nazi flag, you’d collapse, but with a confederate battle flag, ‘It’s common. It’s their heritage.” To people who say, ‘It is my heritage,” I say, “Take a look inside yourself, do you want part of the heritage of ancestors who were slaveholders? Break free of that, you don’t have to endorse that.” There’s something that all of our ancestors did that we were probably ashamed of it, but my ancestors [Laughing] weren’t in this country until after slavery was abolished. But still! Acknowledge that those are wrong, I’m not saying that you have to take personal responsibility. You weren’t alive then, but, by the same token, you have to take personal responsibility for your actions now. Flying a confederate battle flag says to the American neighbour, you’re still under the thumb. It’s not your country; it’s not for you. There’s no way of getting around that. Find something else for heritage, I love southern food. Don’t fly the flag, when you fly that flag, you’re saying to black people, “This country isn’t yours.” We have been struggling with this since day 1 of this country. It is time that we made greater progress, at least, in overcoming that.

Jacobsen: If we take the class or set of all minds, then it is not a mind. Similarly, groups are statistical artifacts. In that, you can find very strong general trends if not weak general trends amongst common groupings. To take the opposing view once more, what if an individual African American or someone who comes later as a black American in general doesn’t care about a confederate flag or is a secularist or secular humanist who doesn’t care about statements about the God concept or statements utilizing the God concept in flags or elsewhere? What, in the cases of individuals, of those types who would amount to, probably, statistical outliers to those classes or groupings? What would be their point of view? What would be a reasonable response to them?

Engel: A reasonable response might be – and I don’t presume to speak for anyone, I think their point of view, “Listen, I live my life. I do what I want. Why do I care about some stupid flag or what it says on some stupid flag?” My answer, “Somebody might be offended.” It violates my rights. You should care that my rights are being violated even if you don’t care that your own rights are being violated. I’ll tell you a story where I learned that once. I went to school on Long Island. It was getting to December. By the way, as a little aside here [Laughing], I love Christmas. I love the lights and the trees. I love how the city lights up. I love going to Rockefeller Center and seeing the big tree. When I went to high school, I had a lot of friends who were Jewish. But I also had friends who weren’t. Somebody said, ‘Hey! Let’s go get a tree and put it up in the courtyard. It’ll be fun.” I thought, ‘It’ll be harmless.” I was speaking to a teacher who I knew and respected, a really good guy.

I said, “Some kids are going to do this.” He said, “You shouldn’t. If one person in this school, if one student, or teacher for that matter, in this school is made to feel that they don’t belong here because of that tree, then that’s the reason why you shouldn’t do it.” It doesn’t have to be everybody or you. Okay, you’re not offended by it. Fine, but if one person is offended to the point, “This is not me, doesn’t represent me, or this school.” I thought about it for a bit and said, “You know what, you’re absolutely right.” And he was. So, a person can feel like they don’t care or doesn’t matter much. Think about the atheist or freethinker who does care, or the black person who does care about the battle flag, you’re defending their rights. I don’t have to be black to think black lives matter. I don’t have to be gay to say, “Gay rights are civil rights.” I don’t have to be an immigrant to say, “No hate, no fear, immigrants are welcome here.” You don’t have to be personally offended by this to defend the rights of people who are.

Jacobsen: What is it like in the state of New York for some of this stuff?

Engel: It depends on where you go. New York City and the rest of New York State [Laughing] are very different. Although, I think atheists and agnostics are still like the last people who it is the last people to dump on. You can’t dump on gay people anymore. But people think – even liberals – it is okay to dump on atheists and agnostics. In the city, it is better because it is a very cosmopolitan place. There are a lot of different viewpoints here. When you go upstate, it is different. A Supreme Court case from about 5 years ago was from New York state that was a horrible decision. It drives me crazy. It was called Town of Greece v. Galloway, where they started every town hall meeting with a Protestant minister. The Supreme Court upheld it, saying, ‘That’s okay,’ as long as different religions can give the prayer. It devolved into different arguments. Then the mischievous Satanists who are really freethinkers wanted to give a prayer or invocation before the meeting. Then some preacher comes and says, ‘If you do not have by Jesus, then you’re going to hell!’ That came from upstate New York. It is much more conservative and much less pluralistic. I think one of the things for this being in New York is so many different people being here, languages spoken, etc. You better respect everybody’s rights or nobody will respect yours. Upstate where it is more homogeneous, it is a little bit dicier, I think, for freethinkers and atheists.

Jacobsen: Jon, sir, it’s been a pleasure.

Engel: Sir, you’re very welcome, Scott.

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2022-05-13

Interview with Rev. Tet Gallardo – President & Executive Minister, UU Church of the Philippines

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/20

Rev. Tet Gallardo is the President & Executive Minister of the UU Church of the Philippines (National Office). Here we talk about Unitarian Universalism within the context of the Philippines.

*Interview conducted on June 19, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Was Unitarian Universalism part of earlier life in any way?

Rev. Theresa (Tet) Gallardo: Indigenous values and princples were much more radical to our colonizers. Our radical hospitality, tolerance to diversity, and beloved communities were generally peaceful (we did not have constantly warring communities) and had a sophisticated order that was covered by cultural covenants. UU values resonated with our deepest concerns and that’s how we affiliated ourselves as part of a larger global tapestry of various legacies of resistance to oppression and struggle for justice.

Jacobsen: When it comes to the Philippines, it is a majority Catholic country. How does this influence the internal dynamics of the Unitarian Universalist Church of the Philippines?

Gallardo: The Vatican City and the Philippines are the last two remaining countries without divorce. Perhaps that’s how tight these two states are. This, despite that we have a now-corrupted culture of philandering husbands, rape jokes, and machisomo and yet we have one of the least gender gap in the world. Before Duterte disrupted our Western-loving narrative, Western bodies ranked us on top of the world as one of the most close-to-equal in rights between males and females, including the World Economic Forum ranking us 5th in the world in 2016. You would think we could muster to get a divorce bill through law, but no. That is the influence of the Catholics here, still in control of the narrative of right and wrong with women expected to be sacrificial as the Virgin Mary. In the UU churches, many women members still feel hijacked by that narrative, athough through the steadfast work of the UU women’s association and liberated women ministers, including LGBTIQA members, we see a mainstream questioning of such narratives and only a few victims are left in the margins. We do not shun Catholic practices like doing the sign of the cross, praying ”in the name of Jesus”, and participation in fun Catholic fiestas, we are still open to all beliefs.

Jacobsen: How does the Unitarian Universalist Church of the Philippines work with the wider culture in the Philippines while securing its own space and place in the society?

Gallardo: We do not evangelize about our theology, we work loud and proud on social justice issues and in correcting oppressions we see around us. That is our faith in action, and we don’t do it for show but because we like to work on our own personal integrity. Every UU has to come to a juncture where they need to clarify their own personal theology as they get exposed to many others. One doesn’t need church to be called spiritual, one doesn’t need to borrow a common creed to validate one’s own experience, one doesn’t need religion to be religious about humanitarian and ecological justice. UUs have a special calling to be in covenanted community helping one another become kinder.

Jacobsen: What is the general theology of UUism within such a populated nation-state as the Philippines?

Gallardo: UUs in the Philippines generally believe in covenants, conversations, and causes. Perhaps the fourth C is coffee!. All are welcome to come in covenant to uphold our principles espousing love, justice, equality, liberty and interconnectedness. We believe that our conversations need to be fearless, genuine, constructive and forgiving. We believe what Dr. Cornel West said, “Justice is what love looks like in public.” We try to work for a society where everyone is free to pursue, life, liberty and happiness while constructing systems that are just and equitable because our communities are not isolated, we are part of an interconnected web. As Dr. Martin Luther King said, “Injustice anywhere is a threat to justice everywhere.” We work on causes that seek to dismantle racism, sexism, and colonialism, among others. In the Philippines, we state our belief in God as ,”God is love.” Church members are free to interpret that as they deem necessary for their coherence of reality and their experiences.

Jacobsen: How do you translate those principles and sources into activism, community service, and regular services within the UU congregation throughout the year? What are the biggest events?

Gallardo: This is the only sect that has 90% of its members being farmers in Negros and people living in the shanties of Manila. We cannot be sustained by our own internal donations, but are sustained by the co-investment of members in the future of the church through labours in worship, community work, and leadership. Our church structure is formally integrated with an LGBTIQA organization, a women’s organization, a farmers association, and soon an indigenous peoples and artists association. We go and support Pride, HIV/Aids Day, Climate Strike, and Women’s marches. Our best community services are in providing scholarships to struggling students and loan access for small entrepreneurs.

Jacobsen: What are the general demographics and orientations in theology and philosophy of the Unitarian Universalist Church of the Philippines community/congregation now?

Gallardo: Majority of us are theists, believing in God a a conscious being merciful and loving – the Universalists; panentheists, believing in the force of God as love in all things; and humanists, believing that God works through people’s motivations and interests – the Unitarians. These three may not be mutually exclusive. These are from strongly embedded Asian roots with strong pagan and Taoist influences even now.

Jacobsen: Has the Duterte political context changed some of the issues of immediate social and economic import for ordinary UU community members in the Unitarian Universalist Church of the Philippines?

Gallardo: Duterte has helped shift the rhetoric away from American colonialism where you needed to love all things white while leaving us culturally bankrupt except for the intense consumerist culture of imperial neoliberal capitalism with corrupt corporate cultures. He hasn’t helped in the least bit deconstruct our Chinese ties. The Philippines has the oldest Chinatown in the world and its culture is well-loved among Filipinos who are highly exposed to Hong Kong, Taiwanese and some Southern China cultural threads. On the other hand, the founder in the Philippines has died by extrajudicial killing in 1988 during the honeymoon phase with Cory Aquino’s budding democracy after kicking out the dictator Ferdinand Marcos, so you can imagine how much we have learned early on that the lifting of dictatorship in the Philippines does not equate to the human security of farmers and poor folk. Farmers here have always felt the coercion and intimidation of the extreme Left who are in armed struggle against the government. No one can say for sure who killed our founder Rev. Toribio Quimada as he had made a few enemies. Every president of this country has had to come under the mercies of the Catholic Church, the oligarchy, and the military – this is known as the triangle of power. Duterte has managed to defuse the hold of the Catholic Church by exposing its corruption and connivance with government corruption; defang the oligarchy by showing political will in punishing tax evaders and exposing corrupt deals with past administrations; and gain the loyalty of the military with incentive schemes. Every president has had to come to the juncture of extending their terms through Charter Change courtesy of military ambitions, but as with every president before him, he’s toed the line and refrained from initiating a process that could perpetuate his power. The church will continue to dissociate with seditious forces and any anti-state armed struggle in creating new ways of focusing the discourse on the oppressed. In Negros Island where the National Office of the UUCP is located, there have been eight (8) extra-judicial killings only in my first year in office as president. These persons were mostly pro-Duterte – 2 journalists, 2 lawyers, and 4 government officials. There’s a very different view of Duterte on the ground.

Jacobsen: What are some of the most meaningful times for you, as a leader of and within the community?

Gallardo: I feel like an outsider most times. I am Tagalog-speaking holding office in a Cebuano-speaking Island. I am the first lesbian minister in the Philippines to come out. I am not from the families who built this church from the ground — I serve 3rd or 4th generation UUs, but I am the first of my family. So to be welcomed in this faith and elected as its President speaks volumes on who are the church members I am serving. They are people who live their faith and believe in the principles with their whole hearts. It is heartening, humbling, and inspiring. I still remember being the first ordained out lesbian minister in the nonWestern world, and that was a powerful moment. Everytime I feel the acceptance of my being, my imagination, and my vision in leading this church, I am made better as a person, not just by the affirmation that can be rewarding, but by the promise of commitment that each moment holds in which members willingly invest as much as I do.

Jacobsen: What are some interbelief/interfaith community activities for you?

Gallardo: We attend interfaith meetings whenever we are invited but there is no particular organization in which we are a member. I have an online Buddhist sangha that meets daily except Sundays. We pray in ways that do not alienate people of certain faiths. We invite Muslims, Hindus, Sikhs, and others to our church pulpit. I myself served in the Peacemakers Circle for a number of years. It’s an interfaith group promoting greater peace and understanding. But that was when I was still based in Manila before my election.

Jacobsen: How are the current crop of Filipino/Filipina leaders of the UUs leading the way for LGBTI rights and women’s leadership in the Philippines amongst all religions and faiths?

Gallardo: We are very visible in Pride marches. I am about to launch the first Pride Cooperative in the Philippines as its president with some co-founders outside of the UU church. And I am constantly in touch with LGBT members of various churches all over the world.

Jacobsen: Any recommended books or speakers on UUism?

Gallardo: UUism is currently undergoing a lot of anti-racism work as a result of the great fallout of 2017 when many of its top leaders resigned from the white supremacy scandals. So most of our books are undergoing some decentering from white theologies. But very new books have been written that hold promise in better articulating our narrative: (1) Widening the Circle of Concern by the UUA Commission on Institutional Change; (2) Centering: Navigating Race, Authenticity, and Power in Ministry, edited by Mitra Rahnema; (3) UUs of Color: Stories of Struggle, Courage, Love and Faith by Yuri Yamamoto (4) Spriit’s Breath by Tet Gallardo (available on Amazon).

Jacobsen: How can people get involved with the Unitarian Universalist Church of the Philippines or with UUism in general?

Gallardo: People can start engaging by attending online zoom services or watching streaming services on FB or Youtube.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts based on the conversation today?

Gallardo: UUs in the Philippines are different from many other UUs in the world in that we are more likely to listen and read nonUU readings and presentations in order to better understand our own personal theology. We are more likely to invite nonUUs in our pulpits and are open to lively spontaneous debates in any assembly.

Jacobsen: Rev. Gallardo, I appreciate the time and the insights.

Gallardo: Thanks for this opportunity. Conversations help me filter my own thoughts as well.

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2022-05-13

Interview with Marr Duk – Media Liaison, The Satanic Temple – West Michigan

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/19

Marr Duk is the Media Liaison for The Satanic Temple – West Michigan. Here we talk about his story and The Satanic Temple.

*Interview conducted on June 9, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s contextualize this, what is the story of coming to TST or The Satanic Temple for you? These origin stories, as superhero movies are prominent now, are helpful in providing a different lens on how people come to different freethought views.

Marr Duk: Sure, myself, I was a black Southern Baptist growing up. I am originally from Detroit, Michigan. I grew up really strict Baptist, fire and brimstone, sinners are going to hell. I even went to a Christian college when I was younger.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Which one?

Duk: I’d rather not say. It is a certain black Christian college. I won’t say to protect identity.

Jacobsen: Sure thing.

Duk: I went there, specifically to get closer to God and to study my theology from people that I thought were well-versed in the idea of forgiveness and the idea of Gospel as the New Testament might describe. In going there, it turned me around. I saw people who I did not agree with. I began to think for myself. I embarked on a journey to find the truth. I started to take truth more seriously and decided, “Maybe, I don’t believe this.” I broke away from the Christian church. I was only an atheist for about fours years and then found The Satanic Temple in early 2016. I joined The Satanic Temple in late 2016.

Jacobsen: So, this is a good point as well. Oftentimes, there’s a confusion between various branches of non-theism connected to ethical philosophies or political activism as opposed to a non-theist or atheist view as a neutral standpoint of rejection of, more or less, the supernatural, but in the guise of gods. A satanic temple as an advancement or building on the foundation. What tenets stood out to or for you? I should have this on the record. I do identify as a Satanist. It is a home team interview here. This is an important philosophy, especially in the context of America, with a lot of politically motivated religious fundamentalists.

Duk: You are a Satanist?

Jacobsen: Yes.

Duk: Of The Satanic Temple or a different branch?

Jacobsen: The Satanic Temple given the commitment to non-theism and around the orientation of some of its political activism with the After School Satan club or the statue of Baphomet to do protestation along the lines of church-state separation in terms of symbolism. Also, the stronger commitment around reproductive health rights for women. I think this is very important. I am a member of Humanist Canada. With Humanist Canada, our first president over 50 years ago was the one individual, almost, who set forth a lot of the rights revolutions and wins for reproductive rights for women, so, I think there’s a common theme in Canada with some of the women’s rights advancements farther along than in America while having some consistent threads in some of these freethought forms of philosophy building off of a non-theist framework. I mean, there’s flavours of non-theism. There’s flavours of atheism. But, more or less, those are splitting hairs. They do not have a direct impact on most people’s lives who have those kinds of stances. Unless, they develop an additional ethical framework around it. It could be the American Humanist Association, Black Skeptics Los Angeles, Black Nonbelievers, the Unitarian Universalist Association, the American Ethical Union, and so on. Those are accepting of non-theist views, if not affirming, while having an ethical or moral framework around them. They don’t agree on everything. They don’t take the same orientation on everything, but they have a lot of overlap. That’s the part that I’m interested in.

Duk: Right, good to know, it is interesting that you point that out. I do not have much background on women’s rights and different aspects of civil rights in Canada. There’s a lot going on here.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Right.

Duk: [Laughing] I do not have a whole lot of time to look at Canada.

Jacobsen: You have my full sympathy as a Canadian looking at the context.

Duk: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: I mean, where do you start? Where do you start? The good thing, people could use this obvious series of injustices converging on this singular movement, probably the largest protest in American history, into real criminal justice reform, real economic equality. Also, the work towards bringing about better lives for those who are more or less at the bottom in proportion to the increase of productivity of the general population, which has been the problem for 40 or more years in the United States with explicit, conscious policy to drive inequality farther along. Which, people become disgruntled with: African Americans, Native Americans, Hispanic Americans, especially women in those categories, get the shit end of an already shorter stick.

Duk: Correct, correct.

Jacobsen: That’s why I think the activism is important. And besides, why not? What is the actual counterargument if we are talking about the well-being of American citizens across the board?

Duk: The bottom line.

Jacobsen: Yes [Laughing].

Duk: The bottom line of individuals would be the only counterargument there.

Jacobsen: So, with the particular chapter of The Satanic Temple, what are some social activities in the context of a) the current moment, which is inflammatory, and b) before and after this moment? This is only a moment in time. There is going to be an ordinary life before and after for these various chapters. For yours, as a media liaison, what are some of the activities – political, communal?

Duk: Our chapter focuses a lot on the communal activities. I’m not sure how much you know about Michigan, but Michigan is a really, really conservative state. Even though, it is in the North. We are victim of the stereotype of the North as so much better than the South. Things of that nature. Michigan is really conservative. We focus a lot on being a safe haven for people who want to hear opinions; that are not conservative. Most of the members have family members who are really, really conservative and have very different ideas than their own. We act as a place where they can, basically, for lack of a better term, let the fruit flies fly. They can come and be whoever they are; we provide activities. Our biggest activity is usually Pride. It takes place in June. It is where we shine. We provide ritual for bystanders to be able to be themselves, act Pride, and be able to do things like destroy their names for people in the trans community or destroy identities assigned to them. Also, we started an annual camping trip called Camp Satan in Michigan here. We like to get together and hang out. What we have been doing lately with mostly virtual meetups, we have a happy hour every Sunday. We sit, talk, and try to be together in some way.

We have our meetings virtually. We plan different events. Our ways of activism are, usually, knowledge and education here. We have a book drive for prisoners. We do this all throughout the year. We make several drops to several prisons here. We give books on philosophy. We tend to stay away from religion. We provide books on different skills, history. Anything that we can provide to give prisoners some connection to the outside and a way to feel as if they are using their time wisely. Also, we do different clothing donations to a local shelter for homeless teenagers here. It might be different materials for reading, writing. We provide clothes to the shelter. We do a good mix of communal and activism-style activities. We try to make a really good set of activities for the members and the affiliates. So, when they come here, they get a break from the world around them. I think, we do a really good job of that.

Jacobsen: Do the texts coming to the prisoners come from dialogue within the Michigan chapter or within the desired texts that the prisoners suggest or want themselves, or both?

Duk: It is a little bit of both. One of our members here has a connection to a prison guard. They came up with the idea, “Hey, let’s donate these books.” They knew for a while that there was a need for books and getting subjects to the prison. This guy went and got the guidelines as to the kinds of books. We went through friends, family, and libraries and donated hundreds of books over the last year. It is thousands by now, to various prisons here in Michigan.

Jacobsen: What are some statements coming from prisoners getting books to enhance a) philosophical understanding and b) technical knowhow?

Duk: I have not heard directly from prisoners. However, we work with the Unitarian Universalist church to distribute these books to different places. They said themselves that they see the surprise on the faces on the people receiving the books. I wish I had a better grasp on personal speeches with prisoners, as to what came out of these books. Sadly, I don’t have that. As you might imagine, it would be hard to track down the books and the effects on prisoners.

Jacobsen: In a conservative state, what difficulties arise around extreme stereotypes about Satanists in general and TST in general?

Duk: The sterotypes comes on an individual basis, we try to go with the moment. You will find us in places really open to us. Different bars, restaurants, and bookstores are open to us. As individuals, though, even today, I had a shirt on today. It was a shirt from the camping trip last year, had a pentagram on it, and said, “Camp Satan,” and the date of the strip and the state of Michigan. All I got was scowls. Some people look at me sideways, pretty evilly.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I can imagine.

Duk: [Laughing] I find it interesting. I enjoy it. Maybe, people may comment, scowl, etc., but it makes them think about different views. At events, we have no problems. At Pride, people are really happy to see us. It is a place where we are accepted. At the meetups, we are accepted pretty well. Most of the weirdness comes from the internet. People who message the page with prayers, etc. People try to infiltrate the group online. Online, it is connecting with people. Things like that. Locally, we don’t go where we are not wanted. We accept people’s choice to not have us around; that’s really it. Oh! I shouldn’t skip over this. The most interesting time of interaction with conservatives in the state with the stuff getting in the news was the goat monument at the state capitol in Michigan. It was on the holidays around Christmas. We left it for about a week. It is interesting the reactions that we get. There have been a lot of news stories. People say, “We should burn it down! We should vandalize it!” People went out and attempted to vandalize it. People send death threats. We have an affiliate member who works around a police station in some capacity and heard death threats. We anointed it with blood every day while it was there.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Duk: People made death threats. That they would do stuff when we went to the hotels. We took it down and put it up every day as the law requires. It was interesting the different threats received. That was the only time that I felt the conservatives really came out to play for whatever reason. It really bothered them for us to put out a nativity scene and perform rituals there. They referred to it as a nativity scene.

Jacobsen: Christmas is a pagan holiday. It was co-opted by the Christians, but, at root, it is a pagan holiday. This is a widespread misunderstanding, coming my way, listening to both Canadians and Americans. In many ways, the secular groups using the iconography of and images antithetical to a lot of the Christian iconography in the United States and Canada are more right.

Duk: Right, we think the whole idea of having religious iconography on the state capitol is [Laughing] ridiculous. They’ve spent a lot of time on rules for this and magic paperwork for it. If everyone is going to have their message on the capitol lawn, we will as well. [Laughing] People didn’t agree with that. Our goal was to get the message across. If someone is there this year, we will be there as well.

Jacobsen: What are the demographics of the local chapter?

Duk: I don’t get too much into the membership of the chapter. I will say, “It is diverse and represents every racial and sexual/gender representation in Michigan,” for the most part. We do a good job reaching out to different people in different walks of life. I am actually pretty proud of that.

Jacobsen: What have been the points of political activism over the two weeks or so of protests over the murder of George Floyd or others?

Duk: We have not taken a position as a chapter. In fact, The Satanic Temple National Council has the same position of the local chapter. It is not the time for Satanists to be present as Satanists. It is not our place to wave our banner and sticking our nose in this matter. As individuals, we participate in a number of levels. There are worries of Covid-19, etc. There are provacateurs of violence who frequently show up to the protests. Many members of chapters, affiliates, and so on, have gone to various protests, rallies, and be vocal with various ally groups. I have been pleased in that regard. As a chapter, we have decided to stay out of it. We asked, certain members have asked, various groups, e.g., local BLM groups and other affiliate groups how they’d like us to help. Individuals help where they can in that regard. As individuals, we are always involved in helping various minority groups, as far as donations to the teenage homeless shelter. Most of the homeless kids here are LGBTQ of some stripe and/or minority. That’s usually the case with statistics in Michigan. A lot of our efforts go to helping these individuals.

With the prison population here, a lot of the efforts go to individual prisoners. We try to spread the activism around in that way. But, as far as these protests as Satanists, we try to help wherever we are at.

Jacobsen: What principles tend to bring individuals into TST?

Duk: It is a broad spectrum of principles. It is really hard to say. TST, as you may know, is really sex positive. It brings a lot of people in, LGBTQ of all stripes. It brings a lot of people in. People who are humanist and want to say more about what they do believe rather than don’t believe. You find them coming into TST. You find individuals coming into TST who are sick of the scientific illiteracy running rampant in the country, and like to join TST to support efforts such as Grey Faction. So, you find a lot of people joining TST around many different ideals. Our chapter here, we have a lot of people who are LGBTQ of some stripe. We have a lot of people here who are here for sex positive reasons. Pride is the big event for us and people feel comfortable with us there, at the Pride booth. It is sad that we weren’t able to be there this year, obviously, as it was cancelled. Being present in the community around women’s rights stuff, we plan to do women’s rights stuff. We have a lot of abortion clinics, Planned Parenthood protestors locally.

Jacobsen: How can people get involved with the chapter local to the themselves or the main national organization?

Duk: If individuals go to www.satanictemple.com, they can find a list of different chapters and prism groups in the area. Prism groups are in the beginning stages and do not have the full chapter structure, but are the way to the full chapter structure. They can go online and find chapters on Facebook. Chapters function in different ways. Ours is mainly Facebook. We may be getting away from this soon. Facebook, though, is the main way. Chapters have different membership structures. We allow pretty much anyone to join the Facebook page, as long as they pass a basic quiz. Then from there, membership is decided by the members. Other chapters have different rules and regulations around each chapter. That is the best way to get involved – go to the website, find the local chapter, every state has a chapter or a prism group, even internationally, e.g., in the UK. Go there, find out what your local chapter does, how to find them, and contact them.

Jacobsen: Marr, thank you so much for your time.

Duk: Yes, anytime.

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2022-05-13

Ask Jon 10 – Say a Prayer for Me, Mr. Cuomo

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/18

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about God and the Governor of New York.

*Interview conducted on May 11, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I want to touch on two points, as covered before. Prime Minister Trudeau, son of the late Pierre Trudeau, made statements on the coronavirus. His remarks were, more or less, on the idea of Canadian citizens deserving more than thoughts and prayers. He did not denigrate those who wish to use the language and have the sensibility. He was making the argument that the general population – religious and non-religious, in other words – need more than this in times of crisis, especially in a shooting. In New York, Cuomo impressed you, others, and me, stating God did not reduce the numbers of deaths and incidences of coronavirus, but people did. This is along the same line of thinking that we’re seeing more and more with Iceland under Katrín Jakobsdóttir. She speaks to mass testing. Same with South Korea. New Zealand under Jacinda Ardern, an agnostic. It is a foundational common element of non-religion’s general focus on science. It is an operationalism as foundational. So, with New York, what is more likely to make most of New York operationalistic, naturalistic about the world, scientific?

Jonathan Engel: I think, New York is a big state in terms of geography. About half of the population or more lives in New York City. When you include the suburban areas of New York and New York City, I went to college at the University of Buffalo. Obviously, Upstate is its own thing. But New York State is dominated by New York City. New York City is a cosmopolitan place. It is a place with a lot of different people from a lot of different places. We call ourselves a city of immigrants. We are! My father was an immigrant born in Canada. We are a city of immigrants. So, a lot of people come here. We are more like, in New York City, other Western countries than other states in the United States. Because the United States has a very heavy level of religiosity among the people more so than other Western countries, but New York City, in particular, and New York State as well. Andrew Cuomo is a child of New York City. His father was the Governor of New York too. He spent part of his time growing up in Albany, but a lot of time in Queens before Mario Cuomo became governor of New York.

So, he’s a New York City guy in a lot of ways too. He wouldn’t say this because he feels the need to represent New York State. He is a New York City guy. In New York City, there is less of that kind of religious influence, especially the extreme religious influence. There are pockets of it because there are pockets of Hasidic Jews, but they tend to be very insular. They don’t affect the rest of the culture as much as Evangelicals as somewhere in the Midwest. In, again, the city, it’s very cosmopolitan. It is more influenced as if by Europe. When people talk about socialism in parts of Europe, it is not something people in New York will be bothered by, as much as people in other parts of the country. This has helped us. The cosmopolitan aspect of the city is why it got hit so fast. So many people come into the city for business, for tourism with 40,000,000 tourists per year. We live – literally – on top of each other. It is not surprising that New York City was one of the first places to get hit so hard in the United States. Right now, if you look at the trends of coronavirus in America, the only place where it is going down is New York. Everywhere else is going up. Cuomo has been very good person to listen to, because he tells the truth, doesn’t sugar coat things. You get the real deal from him rather than listening to the Task Force from the federal government from Trump and Pence.

Who knows what you’re going to hear from these people? Partly, it seems like the nature of New York. We are not going to engage. You don’t have to convince that many people that if you have to social distance; that that’s going to be something to help solve the problem. Whereas, saying, “We have to get in a church and pray this away.” You have pockets of ultra-Orthodox Jews, but you don’t have the kind of religious fervour, as in other parts of the country. With people – literally – saying, “Jesus will save. I will hug my congregants. Jesus will protect them.” You have people with this form of magical thinking. But is not as prevalent in New York, again, I am a New Yorker [Laughing]…

Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…

Engel: …So, take that with a grain of salt. Some, they may want to go to church or synagogue for various reasons because that’s what they’ve always done. They love the community. They will turn around and say, “As long as we pray, the coronavirus will stay away from us,” which will obviously make it worse. It has not happened. We have 80,000 people dead, even so, and rising. Just as we’re talking about the magical thinking of religion, in the Trump White House, you have Trump saying, “I believe this is going to go down to zero. When it is April, and it gets warmer, it will go down.” ‘I believe…,’ ‘I think…,’ what do you mean? “That’s what I think.” That’s nothing. It is what you want, but what you want and what’s real aren’t the same thing. Again, Trump uses the language of religion, even while not religious. Even though, he panders about religion. In some ways, it is the same thing. What is its basis? With religious people, it is based on a book written thousands of years ago, who did not know the germ theory of disease. With Trump, it is just “I am smarter than everyone. So, what I say must have value, because, I am so much smarter than anyone else. I do not have to bother with research and learning.” A lot of people buy into it.

A lot of people in this country say, “You know, I like a guy who knows what he thinks and knows what he believes, and that’s that.” You get less of this in New York than other parts of the country. I am saying, “That’s what I believe,” right? You don’t see protests in churches saying, “We demand churches open up and get packed,” in New York City. So, I do know that for a fact. It has helped New York. In New York, the rate is going down. If you look at the country without New York, then the rate continues to climb, to go up.

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Jon.

Engel: Okay, thank you!

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2022-05-13

Ask Jon 9 – Rage Within the Green Machine

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/16

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about the the health of the socioeconomic status of America and the constructive channelling of legitimate rage.

*Interview conducted on June 1, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, today, based on some pre-talk, I want to focus on what you were terming “hate.” I want to scale that up to more “rage” that could be channelled constructively or destructively. At present, it is an admixture. As an American, as someone living in New York City, as someone seeing the developments of 2020 so far, what are you seeing in terms of the destructive channelling of this hate or rage? What are you seeing in terms of its constructive manifestations as well?

Jonathan Engel: On the destructive side, it is a distraction and an excuse for people who don’t want change. What we’re seeing, one of the things most destructive about the violence is ‘the powers that be’ will use it and are using it to attack any ideas of constructive change. If you can say, “These are destructive violence thugs,” it hides the real issue. There are weaknesses in this country in police violence, obviously, and in income inequality and health inequality. This Covid-19 shows the health inequalities based on health insurance and other individuals who are middle and upper class and can stay home. However, the people flipping burgers, the transit workers, etc., they have no choice; they have to go in and work and have to subject themselves to this. Yet, for many of them, they cannot make a living wage based on the pay. They don’t get health insurance. They don’t get paid sick days. From the negative point of view, this stuff is being distracted from, by the violence. Our so-called president is saying, ‘Get tough! We have the most amazing weapons. If they reach this place, the Secret Service has the best dogs and the most amazing weapons!’ What is he talking about, ray guns? Is this Star Trek? That’s the problem in terms of the rage, the violence, and the destruction.

It can be an easy distraction for the ‘powers that be.’ In fact, it is one of the ways that Richard Nixon got elected. Trump’s advisors are hoping that he can do the same with “Law and Order.” They never talk about law and order in the Board rooms.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: They never talk about law and order on tax returns; it is only when it is a black guy. He is losing. But he is hoping to win as the “Law and Order” guy, ‘I am not namby-pamby. I am a tough guy.’ When the rage is channelled into the destruction, it is something bad for the goals, I think, of most of the people who are protesting, but channelling the rage in a positive direction means keeping on public officials, keeping on them constantly like white on rice, as they say, to make sure these concerns are dealt with; also, to me, the biggest thing is get out and vote. In fact, today, I heard George Floyd’s brother. It is a very moving speech. He said exactly that, ‘Tearing down the neighbourhoods is not a memorial to my brother.’ He also said, and this is important too. He gave a very inspiring talk. ‘Get out and vote, not just for president, but also about district attorney, attorney general, these are all of the important people in bringing about change in this country in both policing, which is the immediate, and in terms of the basic inequality finding black and brown folks at the bottom of the heap.’

Jacobsen: Killer Mike made similar statements or sentiments when providing his own reluctant speech to some of the public of Atlanta. He made the notion or motion towards voting rather than violence against property or destruction of property. This, he meant as a democratic norm and a constructive proposal for the sincere rage of many American citizens across the board over the murder of George Floyd and others. It didn’t happen in a vacuum. It didn’t happen all at once. It happened throughout this presidency, but rooted in a long history of American society. If we take the 30^th of May, there was the launch of the joint SpaceX and NASA astronauts to the International Space Station, which was the first time since 2011. While, at the same time, there have been the single largest protests for women’s rights, for the protection of civilian people of colours’ lives in the United States with disproportionate state violence on them. Also, acknowledging the general trend line of a reduction of violence in the United States over the last decades, it is a strange dichotomy. It has been seen before with riots with strange figures heading up technology for advancements in different aspects of what human beings can be and can do together. Richard Pryor had an old sketch with the first black president in the 70s [Ed. 1977]. He was noting, ‘It’s about time black people went space. There’s a been a lot of white people who have been going to space. And you could say, ‘They’ve been spacing out on us.’‘

Engel: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I think it’s similar. Most of the people focused on the SpaceX-Nasa joint venture. How ever positive with the advancement of the species, and a first since 2011 for Americans, it does represent a disconnect with what is happening on the ground socially, politically, and economically for most Americans, in terms of who has access to get an education in STEM or who have the finances for such expensive projects.

Engel: I agree with you. One of the issues here is the democracy is broken. I could give you lots of examples. We have this ridiculous Electoral College with one candidate winning three million more votes than the other candidate, and then the loser wins the presidency. That doesn’t look like democracy to me. You have gerrymandering in some states. One party can win 60% of the vote in general legislative elections and only get 40% of the representation because of the ways in which the districts are drawn cleverly to ensure democracy does not reign. The part who draws the districts wins. There is all sorts of voter suppression in this country. Since 2018, or January, 2019, when the now House of Representatives was sworn in, in the democratic house, they passed hundreds of bills that have gone to the Senate. It goes to the Senate. Some of those bills have bipartisan support. If you vote, then they would have passed. But if one person, and not a particularly decent one, Mitch McConnell, who is the leader of the majority in the Senate, if he decides no vote on the bill, then there is no vote. The House passes the bill. The Senate would pass the bill, but Mitch McConnell says, ‘I don’t like it. So, I’m not bringing it up for a vote. That’s that.’ That doesn’t feel like democracy.

If people feel as if they do not have a stake in society, then they are more willing to tear it down. Everyone needs some skin in the game. If you are walking down the street full of rage, and if you feel the society isn’t for you, if it works for the richest people and white people, and if it doesn’t “work for me” as a black or a brown person, then “this society is not for me. I do not have a stake in it. If it burns down, then it doesn’t mean anything to me.” That’s when I think rage gets translated into violence, “What do I care if this burns down? There’s nothing here for me. No one will listen to me. My vote won’t care, anyway.” That’s when rage gets channelled into violence. When people feel as if they have a steak in society. They will be heard. There is a reason “why I do not want this burned down, seeing a future for myself, seeing a job paying enough to live on and raise a family, and have a decent and middle-class life.” You say, “I don’t want this burned down. I am somebody. When I make demands, that we have a fair system in this country, then they will be heard.” If you don’t feel that way, “Nothing here is for me. It is for somebody else. What the hell? I might as well burn it all down.”

Jacobsen: Is the core of the argument: a bulky middle class is a buttress against self-destructive impulses towards a society, when I am making a conflation between the individual middle class person and the society?

Engel: I think so. I think the middle class is the bulwark. But we have been losing the middle class. People have been finding it harder to move into the middle class. The cost of higher education is too high. We are losing that. We have been losing that for years. Yes, the middle class, a reasonable middle class aspirations are important. I’ll tell you an anecdote Mitt Romney has become everyone’s favourite Republican down here. He stands up to Trump, the one Republican. Back in 2012, when he was running against Obama, he paid a visit to this guy John H. Schnatter. He went to the home of him. He was the founder of Papa John’s Pizza. He is no longer affiliated, but he founded it. He went to this guy’s house. This huge complex and mansion with the golf course; Romney looks around and says, ‘This, my friend, is the American dream.’ I saw that. I said, ‘You know, if that’s the American dream, then 99.999% of Americans will never reach it.’

How do you expect them to care about society? How do they expect people to care about society if you’re saying that is the American dream? How many people will reach it? In my opinion, the American Dream is start with nothing, get a good public education, work hard, get a decent job that pays you something to live on, has healthcare, can take a vacation once in a while. That’s the American Dream. It is reachable. It is, basically, a description of the middle class, which has been eroded in this country because the rights of workers have been taken away. There has been an effort to destroy unions. The tax rate keeps going lower, and lower, and lower. People can only talk about lowering taxes towards the richest people in the country. You end up with people who think they were middle class and slip into poverty themselves. A good middle class that is reachable and having the ability to reach aspirations for the average person, reasonable aspirations, not John H. Schnatter mansion, but a decent place to live with decent schools. That’s the type of thing; I think it is a bulwark against violence.

If you’re in the situation, then you can see how you have a stake in an orderly society. But also, if you feel, ‘If I say something, my vote counts, my vote matters.’ If gives you a stake in society and a stake in non-violence, we don’t want things burned down. We want them improved; we will be listened to. I think that’s a bulwark in steering the rage into constructive change as opposed into destruction and nihilism.

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you for your time.

Engel: Hey, Scott, take care of yourself.

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2022-05-13

Interview with Professor Steven Pinker – Johnstone Family Professor, Psychology, Harvard University

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/10

In a prior job at Conatus News in the United Kingdom, I conducted an interview with the prominent and respected author and philosopher of science, Dr. Rebecca Newberger Goldstein, who agreed to the interview and made some thoughtful comments about the idea of the “conatus” or the idea of an “effort or willing of something in order to improve itself.” This came with a context. She understood the intellectual environs and inspiration of the “conatus” coming from deceased philosopher Baruch Spinoza and others. Goldstein has a sentiment towards Spinoza, akin to Bertrand Russell’s when he said, “Spinoza is the noblest and most lovable of the great philosophers. Intellectually, some others have surpassed him, but ethically he is supreme.” As serendipity presents itself, sometimes, one can get the opportunity to interview an individual of similar intellectual calibre within many of the same philosophical traditions and ethical outlooks. Serendipity came through financial and social media assistance on the part of Professor Pinker towards an initiative to combat a particular form of superstition and supernatural belief in Africa. As it so happens, also, Pinker and Goldstein have been married since 2007. Professor Pinker is the Johnstone Family Professor of Psychology at Harvard University. His most recent book is Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress. With great pleasure, I present the interview with Professor Pinker from yesterday here, where we discuss current events in the United States in a larger non-pollyannaish context, journalism, cognitive biases, supernatural beliefs, creationism, global democratic movements, the language faculty, sex and gender differences, and Humanism.

*Interview conducted on June 9, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start from the top with some of the current events in the United States, and some of the things happening in the world as well, if we look at some of the more current events in the United States over the last two weeks, it can given the impression of things being quite negative, in terms of the apparent destruction of property and violence against some citizens and authorities. Your recent work has been based around cataloguing long-term trends happening around the world, including in the United States. One of the caveats that you tend to give is that it is not pollyannaish in its perspective as well. So, what would be a broader perspective, even in the midst of some of the sociopolitical upheaval happening in the United States now?

Professor Steven Pinker: The overall levels of violence, including police shootings of civilians, were worse in the past. It’s unfortunate that this has been a long-simmering problem, particularly in the United States, where police kill far too many civilians. We should be grateful. Finally, this problem is going to be addressed. It is unavoidable. However, our impression of the present moment compared to other times should not be compared to the news of the day because the news is a highly non-random sample of the worse things happening on the planet on any given day. They can give a highly misleading picture of the trajectory of the world. The things that go right tend to be non-newsworthy. The country is not at war. That’s not news.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: Things that tend to get better creep up a few percentage points per year, which can then compound and transform the planet. However, if they don’t take place on a Thursday in February, then we will never read about them. While not denying terrible things can happen, indeed, an acknowledgement of human progress is not the same as the belief that nothing bad ever happens or things get better by themselves. We’re apt to underestimate progress when our source of information about the world comes through the news.

Jacobsen: Does this make a general statement about journalism and reportage, even in prestigious Western publications such as The New York Times, coming to the phrase, “If it bleeds, it leads”?

Pinker: Indeed, this is not to cast aspersions on the essential role of the mainstream media in our understanding of the world because it is the reporters who have the commitment to disinterested search of information. It is the institutions of fact-checking and editorial responsibility that are the only window to the world. It is not an accusation of any sinister, or even commercial, motive, but, rather, a kind of innumeracy. A kind of failure to appreciate the distortions coming about by sampling. In particular, the sample of the worst things taking place anywhere on the planet. The insensitivity to time scales. Something can go wrong very quickly. Something going right tends to be protracted over time. Also, a part of our psychology is unduly affected by the images, anecdotes, and narratives. Cognitive psychologists call this the Availability Bias/Heuristic. Events available in memory – because of vividness, recency, and concreteness – will tend to distort estimates of risk likelihood and probability.

Jacobsen: Even if we take the research of distinguished professors like Elizabeth Loftus at the University of California, Irvine, there is a robust phenomenon of False Memories and Rich False Memories. If we are taking social activism and political events over the scale of decades, does this further compound the cognitive biases with information recalled and observed and brought to the news?

Pinker: It is an additional source of distortion of our perception of the world. Above and beyond the fact, we are overly influenced by events and narratives. There is the problem: we don’t particularly remember them accurately, as Elizabeth Loftus’s work has shown. We tend to tidy up the details of our memories. So, they fit a coherent narrative. Our memories can be edited retrospectively by the way we think about them, the occasions of recollection. After we recall a memory, the filing back of the memory can be distorting once more. It is an additional source of cognitive impairment. All educated people should be aware of it, including journalists.

Jacobsen: Are there particular types of biases coming forward in more established mainstream institutional news organizations compared to more independent journalism?

Pinker: There can be. Overall, large journalistic institutions can afford editors and fact-checkers, and reporters to be sent out to remote and inhospitable locations. Plus, they have a reputation to defend. So, if they are caught on record with egregious distortions, then that will subtract from the reputation. There are some reasons for the big institutions needing to be more accurate. On the other hand, there are some reasons for reduced accuracy`. If there is a particular worldview, ideology, or mindset, often, it is hard to recognize them in yourself. There’s a quote, which I love, from the economist Joan Robinson, “Ideology is like breath. You never smell your own.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: [Laughing] If an institution, including a journalistic institution, is captured by a political faction, whether on the left or the right, we know from a body of psychological research of a third type of distortion. Namely, the desire to filter evidence, so it reinforces beliefs held already by you. With Confirmation Bias, we tend to subscribe to themes and commentaries affirming beliefs rather than challenging them. We tend to be hardnosed methodological purists when it comes to research contradicting personal beliefs. Whereas, we tend to give an easy pass when it comes to research that confirms them. Indeed, political biases, almost a tribalism where the tribes are not ethnographic units or sports teams, are ideologies on the left or the right. They can be a major source of misunderstanding. Again, there is a biased bias. Where everyone is willing to admit this is true about the other side, their side is seen as completely objective and clear-eyed. There is reason to believe this is not true. In fact, we can find distortions in the factual understanding on both the left and the right.

Jacobsen: In the United States more so than Canada, and the United Kingdom much less so than Canada, there are a lot of supernatural beliefs across the board, whether devils, ghosts, all sorts of things. How do these then creep into some of the perceptions of a lot of the general public, even if they are reading decent, reliable, and validated reportage in the news?

Pinker: Yes, I am not aware of data comparing countries. What you say doesn’t surprise me, in a lot of measures of wellbeing and rationality, the United States punches well below its wealth.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: It is among the world’s wealthiest countries. It ought to be the healthiest, happiest, and the smartest in the world. It does okay.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: In many ways, it trails Canada and other affluent democracies. I wouldn’t be surprised if supernatural belief is one. Certainly, religious belief is one. Americans are more religious than any affluent democracy. The United States is an outlier. There are beliefs, which we don’t categorize as religion. They are supernatural or New Age. They are surprisingly prevalent in a lot of countries. Why would this be more the case in the United States assuming the science shows this? The scientific and pseudoscientific beliefs do not come from a first-hand knowledge of the relevant scientific literatures. Frankly, I am not enough of a population geneticist, climate scientist, or neuroscientist to defend all personal beliefs about the brain, the soul, the climate, and evolution. However, I know the way science works. They are the tribe for me. I know the intellectual ecosystem. It is peer review. It is open debate. If someone were to come up with a really good refutation of some dogma, then this would be a good career move because the upstart is often rewarded. I tend to believe: If something is in the scientific mainstream, then it is, typically, a better source of objective understanding than some random thing forwarded from Twitter or email.

On the other hand, there are people without this belief. They treat the scientific consensus, the consensus of institutions such as government and academia and hospitals and mainstream media, as another opinion. No more reliable than something retweeted. Tests of scientific knowledge when it comes to climate show people who accept the scientific consensus are not necessarily more informed than others who do not accept it. For those who accept manmade climate change, they think this has something to do with plastic straws and holes in the ozone. Climate change dealing with a sense of greenness. Their own not-so scientific beliefs happen to align with the scientific consensus because they tend to follow, more or less, the consensus. However, for people alienated from mainstream institutions, they have no reason to take this any more seriously than pronouncements of President Donald Trump. In the United States, assuming a greater degree of belief in the paranormal, pseudoscience, and so on, in addition to the well-documented level of religious belief, it may lead to greater alienation from mainstream institutions, which tend to be more trusted in other wealthy democracies, I assume.

Jacobsen: Skeptical Inquirer published a good article, recently. It had to do with Nobel Prize winners, some, who held not exactly the most robustly validated positions. In other words, it was a comparison between individuals who would very likely score very high on general intelligence while having certain forms of irrational beliefs. It is not directly related, but it is along the same line of thinking of some of the research into people who score very high on intelligence tests, general intelligence tests, having particular kinds of tendencies in irrational thinking. Is general intelligence a factor here when it comes to pseudoscientific beliefs, supernatural beliefs, and various forms of fundamentalist religious beliefs?

Pinker: It is a factor, but it is like anything in psychology or social science. There are correlations. They are significant, but well below 0.10.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Right.

Pinker: [Laughing] People who score higher on IQ tests. They are more likely to be atheists. Also, they are more likely to get education, less likely to fall prey to fallacies of statistical reasoning. However, there are no shortage of exceptions to the correlations.

Jacobsen: In the United States, there has been a longstanding effort to try to combat the perceived encroachment of an atheist worldview or a secular frame of mind, especially in regard to evolution via natural selection. So, organizations like the Discovery Institute. Philip Johnson died last year in November. He is the legal mind of the orientation. The other two are Michael Behe and William Dembski for the molecular biology and information theoretic foundations of Intelligent Design creationism, respectively. They have been working for decades to try to impose creationist thought in the education system by skipping all manner of regular modern scientific procedure with peer review, debate, experiment, etc. Instead, they attempted to go straight to the high school system in the textbooks. So, when it comes to some, not simply errors in reasoning or correlations between general intelligence and certain forms of supernatural and pseudoscientific beliefs, what about these direct efforts to try to reduce the level of correct scientific and empirical theories, most substantiated theories, of the world seen today?

Pinker: Indeed, though, the Discovery Institute and the smarter creationists have been clever at insinuating what are disguised religious beliefs in the guise of scientific controversy. On two occasions, my hometown paper, the Boston Globe, one of the prestigious papers in the United States, published op-eds by people from the Discovery Institute trying to sew confusion about evolution. I complained in both instances to the editorial page. The editor was tricked by a fairly clever campaign to make this seem as if it was in the realm of ongoing scientific controversy. In that, it was a secular argument for Intelligent Design. Whereas, as the Kitzmiller case in Dover in 2005 established, there’s no question: This is disguised religious propaganda. Knowing the separation of church and state, at least in the United States, they realize the need to work around it. They were given a stunning defeat in 2005, but, certainly, they have not given up.

Jacobsen: Some of the earliest work was on an innate capacity of language. When it comes to a lot of the innate capacities, I, often, think of the cognitive biases, which appear, more or less, hardwired in how human beings evolved. When it comes to some of the attempts to educate along the lines of critical thinking, science, and empiricism, general rationality, even if there was pervasive critical thinking education, science education, logical reasoning education, and so on, from elementary school through to the end of high school, would there be an asymptote at some level in terms of the level of rationality to inculcate in the society, including among the wealthiest?

Pinker: Humans, certainly, are a rational species. In that, we have taken over the planet, even long before the Industrial Revolution and the age of colonization. From a homeland in Africa, humans outsmarted plants and animals in a variety of ecosystems because they could develop mental models about the ways the world worked. They were not so superstitious to not know when it could get cooler, how to track down an animal, and how to detoxify a plant. We have an innate capacity for reason. It seems rooted in the physical world, the concrete world, or the cause-and-effect arrows determining our survival. When it comes to history before we were born, when it comes to parts of the world where we don’t live, when it comes to things too small to see, or places too far away to live, we are susceptible to myths and fairytales. Probably, it’s because most of the history of the species existed before the era of science, statistics, and modern education. It didn’t matter much. On the creation of the cosmos, you could believe anything.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: A lot of beliefs were not in the realm of truth and falsity. Our modern attitude states, “We ought to apply this to all of our beliefs.” Rather, we look for narrative appeals of the story and the moral utility. That is, is this good for galvanizing people to do the right things? Whether it is true or false, it a secondary concern for a lot of our beliefs. I think this is true of a lot of religious beliefs. It is not even clear, whether religious beliefs for religious people are deep down believed to be true. In that, this is seen as an important belief to hold, or not, in spite of its truthfulness. I believe our cognitive systems have these two different kinds of belief. Modernity has seen the expansion and encroachment of the factual, scientific, logical, and historical, over the mythological, the narrative, the fable, and the morality tales. However, human nature makes the myth, the narrative, and the fable always pushback. We need, in the education system, political discourse, and journalistic discourse, an affirmation of the idea: some things are true; some things are false. We do not know, at any given time, what they are because we are not omniscient. We are not infallible. We have methods, which steer us on a path to greater truth, including the scientific method. We ought to valorize attempts at objectivity, even when they tug at our moral narratives or moral convictions.

Jacobsen: One of the approaches endorsed by you, which, I believe, comes from the late Hans Rosling: “factfulness.” What is factfulness? How does this reorient a lot of the discourses, whether floating in online spaces or some professional circles?

Pinker: Yes, I wish I came up with the word “factfulness.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: It is an excellent addition to the English language suggested by a native speaker of Swedish, the late Hans Rosling, and his son, Ola Rosling, and daughter-in-law, Anna Rosling Rönnlund. Factfulness is the mindset of basing beliefs on the best vetted facts. In their case, and in mine, e.g., the book Enlightenment Now coming out shortly before Factfulness and partly based on Rosling’s data, it is the sense of the arc of history, of the state of the world now, should be driven by the best and most comprehensive data rather than by the headlines. Indeed, Rosling showed, in a number of surveys in The Ignorance Project, most people are out to lunch on knowledge of basic world developments such as people becoming richer or poorer on the whole, the percentage of kids who are vaccinated, the percentage of kids who are educated and literate. The majority of people believe things continue to get worse. People have not escaped poverty. Most people are illiterate. When in most cases, it is the great majorities.

Jacobsen: One of the big metrics, I believe the late Christopher Hitchens noted this in a debate with Tony Blair. The single best metric for the development of society is probably coming under the guise of the phrase: “The empowerment of women.” If women have equal rights on a variety of measures, whether reproductive health rights, economic access, educational access, and so on, the societies tend to be much healthier, and wealthier. What are some other metrics having an overall positive correlation with the health and wealth of a society?

Pinker: Yes, I think that is the essential question. To the frustration of social scientists, when you make comparisons across countries, across American states, across time periods, a lot of things get confounded. So, when you search for a cause and effect story, you need to be a really clever statistician or econometrician because countries with more empowered women are healthier, wealthier, more democratic. The questions: Which one is the cause? Which ones are the beneficial effects? The answer may be each of them reinforces each of the others. In countries with greater wealth, they will be less likely to imprison women in the kitchen and the nursery. Yet, when you have 50% of the population to apply their brainpower to the society’s problems, then this will likely make them richer moving forward. Likewise, richer countries tend to be able to afford schools and keep kids out of the fields and the factories. When you have a generation of kids who are better educated, they tend to be more receptive to the empowerment of women. It is an irrefutable idea [Laughing]. The idea of keeping half of the population in a state of oppression doesn’t make sense, when you observe the outcomes of societies empowering women. Other progressive belief systems such as the value of democracy over tyranny, the value of peace over conflict. These tend to correlate with better, more educated populaces.

I think Hitchens is right. In that, the empowerment of women is one driver. Although, it is hard to say, “It is the first driver.” In that, in any given society, if you simply educated girls, and if there were no other changes in health and infrastructure, then the society would improve. Certainly, it is a contributor. One way to think about this. Francis Fukuyama once said the key problem in human progress or human development, “How do we get to Denmark?” In this sense, Denmark is a lot like many countries. It has poverty. It has crime, but much less. In many ways, you could pick Norway. However, there are many, many better places to live than others. We can see how people vote with their feet. People, literally, want to get to Denmark via immigration there. It gives a benchmark for, at least at present, the highest places to aspire. Ideally, we would get the rest of the world to a state of happiness, health, and education, as Denmark. A lot of things differentiate Denmark from Togo or Bangladesh. Women’s empowerment would be one of them.

Jacobsen: What about the number of democracies in the world now? What about the strengths of the democracies? Is it fewer or more? Even if we take the total count, how robust are these democracies?

Pinker: In the past decade, the world has been more democratic than any other historical period and decade. There has been some backsliding in the past few years. Russia, Turkey, Hungary, and Brazil, for example, have slid back, including the United States and India. However, there is no comparison to the 1970s, when I was in the university system. There were experts predicting democracy would go the way of monarchy. A nice arrangement while it lasted.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: It is good to remember. Even with the alarming regression in democracy, we are seeing it. It is slight compared to the previous times of the world. Half of Europe was behind the Iron Curtain until 1989, living under totalitarian communistic dictatorships. Most of Latin America was under rightwing or military dictatorships. In East Asia, you had South Korea, Taiwan, and Indonesia under rightwing military dictatorships. All of them more or less democratic today. It is true. You cannot dichotomize the world into democratic and autocratic because a lot of crappy democracies exist. In that, people have the right to vote, but the government manipulates the vote. Either by outright fraud, by penalizing/outlawing opposition parties, by using the government organs as propaganda for the regime in power, by harassing journalists and opposition leaders on trumped up corruption charges, and so on, by dismantling civil society institutions like universities as Hungary did with the Central European University. That’s why a number of organizations give countries a grade. Sometimes, it is from minus 10 to plus 10 on an autocracy to a democracy scale.

Jacobsen: To the earliest work for you, as far as I know, it was language. You built off a lot of the work by Noam Chomsky or highly inspired by the work of Noam Chomsky. What is language, fundamentally, in terms of the modern research?

Pinker: My interests, in fact, were in all of human nature and human behaviour. I worked in visual imagery, auditory perception at McGill University before venturing into language. I did research into behaviour of rats and pigeons while a student as McGill. My first research was on excessive drinking in rats – of water, that is.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: My interest in language comes from a more general interest in human nature. Language is the most distinctively human trait. Although, it would not have evolved if not for other more distinctively human traits. Zoologically unusual features of homo sapiens including technological knowhow, figuring out how to outsmart plants and animals, how to develop tools and technologies, and social cooperation. We are unusual in the degree of social cooperation with members of the species who we are biologically unrelated. Language, it would not have evolved if we were not on speaking terms. Why share information or knowhow, or say anything to the enemy? The fact of the development of recipes, algorithms, and technologies and tools mean an interest in saying something to one another. We do not talk to merely amuse ourselves. In turn, it makes us valuable to other people as sources of information. It makes us more curious about our relations with other individuals. Language helps negotiate partnerships, spread gossip about partnerships to avoid, and so on. The three abilities – language, knowhow, and sociality – co-evolved. My original interest in language came from an interest in baby’s acquisition of it. This was a question for Chomsky. He did not study children’s language. He set a central theoretical problem in understanding language: How do we develop language in the first place? People need to learn to read, but not to speak.

All human societies have language without the benefit of some central committee with everything planned. The development and acquisition of language is part and parcel of the essence of human nature. For Chomsky, he implied a rich innate structure to language. Obviously, we can’t come into the world knowing anything about English, Japanese, Yiddish, or Swahili, but Chomsky proposed an innate universal grammar. That is, computational machinery optimized for language. Now, it is very hard to pin down what would go into this universal grammar. There is an enormous controversy around it. There is by no means a consensus in the researchers studying language. The challenge of explaining how kids learn language. It led me to being sympathetic to the idea of innate constraints or pre-programming of the possibilities of a language. Kids did not approach language as pure cryptographers trying to decode the probabilistic sequences of one sound after another. They come into the world expecting other people will communicate with them using arbitrary signs arranged by rules. They look for units of sounds. They listen for words. They are sensitive to the ways of combining them. Unless, you have a circuitry programmed to do it. Then kids would flounder around producing sounds approximating language without ever getting the point that a language is a bunch of signals.

Jacobsen: When we look at the various facets of human nature, one of the philosophical assumptions for humanists, like you and I, is human nature is fundamentally good. There are outliers among us. However, in general, human nature is fundamentally a good set up. As a philosophical assertion, how supported is this, empirically?

Pinker: Yes, I wouldn’t put it that way, myself. I stole a phrase from Abraham Lincoln for the title of a book I published, The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined, in 2011. Of course, putting aside the angels, it is a lovely metaphor. As it captures, human nature is complex. It has parts. I would not say, “Humans are fundamentally good.” I’d say, “There are subsystems in the human brain, which allows us to be good, e.g., empathy, a moral sense, a capacity for self-control, the power of reason.” However, it is not everything in the skull. We can be callous toward others. We can exploit them, whether exploitative labour, in sex, or through property. Some genders more than others have a stronger sense of dominance.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: We have a thirst for revenge. Sometimes, it is called justice. We can cultivate a sense of sadism. Depending on the social milieu, different parts of human nature can come to the fore. The challenge is setting up the norms, the institutions, the beliefs, and the laws calling out the better angels and suppressing the inner demons.

Jacobsen: What setups, empirically speaking, tend to bring the subsystems producing behaviours and thoughts, moral sentiments, bringing out the “better angels of our nature”?

Pinker: Democracy is one of them. The idea, no one has the right to dominate anyone else. There is a provisional, circumscribed, and temporary power granted to some individuals subject to recall and oversight to protect us against each other or to maximize public goods. That’s one of them. Cosmopolitan mixing of people and ideas. It becomes harder to demonize others if you know the state of the world in their shoes or from their point of view. Ideas such as human flourishing as the ultimate good rather than national glory or the propagation of dogma or adherence to scripture. The cultivation of a sense of fallibility, corrigibility, knowledge of human limits and human nature. So, we set up our institutions, not because any one of us can claim to be angelic or moral, or infallible or omniscient. Precisely the opposite, we set up rules of the game, so we can approach the truth or the morally best way of arranging our affairs. Even though, no one of us is good or wise enough to attain it. We have mechanisms with democratic checks and balances. We do not empower a benevolent despot because the despots are a guy or a gal complete with human infirmities. We do not allow scientific authorities to legislate a dogma. We have peer review. Even a Nobel Prize winner can’t get his or her stuff published without other people anonymously vetting it, it is part of the norm of science. Anyone can raise their hand and point out a flawed argument of anyone else. We don’t always implement them in as effective a form as desirable. However, those are aspirations. The fact of setting up rules allowing better states of knowledge, better forms of cooperation despite our limitations is a way in which we can outdo ourselves.

Jacobsen: You’ve done a debate or several debates on sex and gender differences. What are the differences between men and women, which are significant? What are some caveats to some of those significant differences?

Pinker: Yes, I consider myself a feminist. I celebrate the incomplete advancement of women’s rights and interests in all walks of life. However, I don’t think feminism demands sameness or interchangeability. In fact, I think it’s rather insulting to women.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: To say, it makes them worthy of rights, so they’re exactly like men. Because men and women have plenty of bugs, shortcomings, and flaws. Among the differences, the differences in sexuality. Men have a greater taste for sex for its own sake without consideration for emotional commitments. Perhaps, the most recent sign of this comes from the growing industry in sex robots.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: It is exclusively male. There are others. Men are the more violent gender. The homicide rates tend to be more than 10 times greater for male on male compared to female on female. Men tend to be more interested in things. Women are more interested in people. On average, in cognitive abilities, the differences are smaller and measurable. Men tend to be better at 3-dimensional spatial rotation. Women tend to be better at verbal fluency and arithmetic calculation. Men tend to be greater risk-takers, including stupid risks. There are others. Those are some of the major ones. Two major caveats, we are talking about two overlapping bell curves. For any difference in the averages, there are going to be plenty of women who are better than the average male and plenty of males who are better than the average female in spatial ability, in sexuality, in risk-taking, in interest in gadgets, etc. You name it. Also, we shouldn’t confuse the existence of observed differences amongst the averages or the central tendencies with political or moral rights/obligations. Namely, every individual should be treated as an individual and should have the opportunity to do whatever he or she finds is best for them. Florynce Kennedy once said, “There are very few jobs that actually require a penis or vagina. All other jobs should be open to everybody.”

Jacobsen: [Laughing] That’s a good quote. There’s another facet of this as well. It has to do with the factor of variance. If we look at the extreme levels of either end of the curve, the Gaussian normal distribution, the bell curve, let’s say 4 standard deviations on either side of the average, so, the profoundly gifted or the profoundly not, what shows up in the population of the profoundly gifted or not? For instance, the ratio of men to women at those levels. Also, if we look at the various standardized tests measuring at those levels, insofar as they do, what about the subtest scores in terms of the amount of sameness on all the subtests and the variability on all of the subtests too?

Pinker: There are a number of robust sex differences. There is more variability in men than in women. So, when you go out to the tails in either direction, the sex ratio is different. With the caveat, the farther and farther out one looks at the tails of the distribution, then the smaller and smaller are the sample sizes. So, the data get fuzzier. The other caveat is variance never reaches zero. So, no matter how far out one goes or not, you will see specimens of both sexes. However, in general, there are more men proportionately at the high and low end of most continua for which we have data.

Jacobsen: What are some of the socially predicted outcomes of this kind of variability? How does this manifest itself in society?

Pinker: One of them, if in a completely fair system, let’s say one utterly gender blind, you would not expect a 50/50 ratio in any profession. This has been long obvious to me based on the early career in childhood language acquisition. There was a statistical imbalance in favour of women. Both in sheer numbers and most of the intellectual superstars. In other fields, it may go another way, e.g., mechanical engineering, theoretical physics. Again, people tend to confuse the observation of the numbers as “not 50/50” with the claim of “no women.” It is preposterous. Only a madman would think women aren’t in physics or mechanical engineering. It doesn’t mean the numbers will be 50/50. In turn, it means departure from 50/50 is not, itself, a proof of sexism. Although, there may be sexism. Certainly, there is sexism. We can have any target, any aspiration. We can decide: It is an important social goal for 50/50 outcomes in mechanical engineering. I think this is a dubious goal. It means that we would not achieve the goal merely by a completely fair system. We would have to tilt this in the other direction with affirmative action policies in favour of women. Maybe, this is a social goal. Certainly, it must be a social goal. There should be no discrimination or harassment. Even in a utopian world in which discrimination and harassment fell to zero, we would not automatically end up with 50/50 ratios.

Jacobsen: If we look at a humanist philosophy, by the very nature of it, it is not merely atheism or agnosticism. In that, atheism is, as we know, simply a rejection of the supernatural in the form of gods. Agnosticism is a form of “I don’t know” about it. Humanism takes an ethical approach. At the same time, it incorporates science into its philosophical meanderings. So, it is open to revision. I think this is probably the reason for a moderately amusing thing among humanists, which is to make a lot of declarations (or manifestos) since 1933 forward.

Pinker: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] I wrote an article for a column for the Humanist Association of Toronto. I counted probably about 12.

Pinker: [Laughing].

Jacobsen: [Laughing] There’s, at least, that many. Some saying the same things. Others saying not the same things. You see variations between “ethical humanism” or “humanism.” You see an alternate religious philosophy and then non-dogmatic philosophy without incorporating religious terminology. When I frame this to myself, I look at Humanism as an empirical moral philosophy. By that nature, it will continually evolve as our best scientific understandings of the world evolve through the standard procedures of science mentioned before. If we take into account an ethical philosophy that evolves and will be ever, hopefully, improving based on improvements in our scientific understandings of the world, what do you think will be some of the next steps based on the richer understanding of science and very deep scientific sensibilities for Humanism as an ethical philosophy? What will be a reasonable next step?

Pinker: Yes, I think you’re right in differentiating and linking atheism per se. That is, atheism as the rejection of supernatural beliefs and Humanism has human flourishing as the ultimate moral good, and the scientific worldview states that we ought to base our beliefs on empirical verification and explanatory depth. They reinforce one another. Even though, they are not identical. Next steps, good question, I think some are a deeper understanding of human nature, of the sources of belief, sources of morality, and the conditions in which we are, more or less, rational. Why smart people can believe stupid things or, at least, irrational things? What are the social conditions allowing both humanistic and rational beliefs to bubble up, to become second nature? We have seen some this, particularly since WWII, where institutions are more secular and humanistic on average. However, we have seen the rise of authoritarian nationalism and populism. There are forces pushing against the Enlightenment cosmopolitan humanist worldview. What are the components of human nature allowing us to eke out a more humanistic worldview? What are the parts dragging this nature back down? What are the circumstances allowing human beings to flourish, as another line of inquiry? How come with all the improvements in objective human wellbeing, many countries do not have a commensurate rise in happiness? The United States is, by all measures, better off than 70 years ago. It is not much happier, if at all. Many countries are happier than the United States. Why is there so much grievance and anger despite the measurable improvements in people’s objective wellbeing? These are all fascinating empirical questions, which would reflect back on our moral worldview as well.

Jacobsen: Last question tied to a comment, so, Dr. Leo Igwe and I have been working through Advocacy for Alleged Witches (AfAW) to combat a big issue in the African continent around allegations of witchcraft and disbelief in witchcraft. You’ve made a donation and helped with social media on some coverage of this. So, thank you. There’s still a wide range of rationality and irrationality throughout the regions of the world. There will be wide disparities in the regions of the world based on the education systems, the wealth of the society, the rights implemented and not just stipulated. What do you believe or think needs the most pressure now, in the next few years, to move the dial towards Enlightenment Humanism and scientific rationality more than not?

Pinker: One is a rise in education. We know societies with more education are less vulnerable, though not immune, to supernatural beliefs, not least with witchcraft. An extraordinarily dangerous belief and prevalent across societies being more of a rule than an exception.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Pinker: It has to be singled out as a source of evil. Reminding people of the history, the accusers used to be the accused. Also, there is a need to promote a humanistic enlightened view as an alternative source of values and morality. You alluded to this before in tallying up the number of humanistic declarations. There is a need for them. Not, maybe, the declarations, but, certainly, the moral energy, it is not enough to debunk toxic beliefs. There has to be the promotion of moral values, which we can defend and strive towards. Humanism, for lack of a better word, is that belief system. It is one needing promotion in different guises. That is, it is not a question of appealing to superstitions and supernatural beliefs to be moral. In that, there is a coherent value system; namely, making people wealthier, happier, and healthier, more stimulated and safer, these are good things, moral things, and noble things. We haven’t found the right marketing, the right packaging, in order to promote them as a positive alternative to the toxic beliefs that we’re vulnerable to.

Jacobsen: Professor Pinker, thank you for your time, it was lovely.

Pinker: Thanks so much, Scott, it was good to talk to you.

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2022-05-13

Ask Jon 8 – ‘We don’t want your thoughts and prayers. We want action.’

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/09

Jonathan Engel, J.D. is the President of the Secular Humanist Society of New York. Here we talk about the notion of thoughts and prayers in the context of Canada and America.

*Interview conducted on May 11, 2020.*

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we are back with another Ask Jon. This time, we are going to be talking about an intersection between political leaders, whether at the state level or the national level, and then the chiselling away at some of the faith-based notions held in cultures, by and large. One of those deals with thoughts and prayers or the notion of an intervening God helping in the affairs in operating a state, city, or country. Let’s start with your case in New York, what was Cuomo’s comment or statement on coronavirus not too long ago?

Jonathan Engel: One thing that he said got a little bit of coverage, not a tremendous amount. He said, ‘Listen, prayer is not going to solve this for us. We have certain steps. That we have to take: stay at home orders, social distancing, wear a mask, wash your hands.’ He came out and said that. Which, in the United States, in many ways, it is a very religious country. It was extraordinary coming from him. He is not only the governor of the state that has the biggest city in the country. He is also the governor of the state that has the biggest coronavirus infection. It is not surprising given how many people come here. We get 40,000,000 tourists a year. People coming in and out. We live on top of each other in big buildings crammed into subways, which you can barely get into. It is not surprising. It is interesting that Cuomo has become quite an interesting figure in the United States. Because while Trump was doing his fact-free and knowledge-free daily coronavirus updates, Cuomo was doing them as well. People started to watch Cuomo more than Trump, even if not from New York state because Cuomo was giving the real deal and the truth: prayer is not going to stop this. It is not going to do it.

It said it in a matter-of-fact way. He was not saying it in a way to attack religion or anything. He said it in a matter-of-fact way. It is interesting because it is true and something that is unusual in this country, where people tend to give lip service to religious beliefs, whether they really believe them or not – especially political leaders. They feel that there’s never been much of an atheist political movement in this country. But religious politics – oh yes, very much so, it is to the fore. You will be more dangerous for a politician. “Dangerous” for being re-elected. It is more dangerous as a perception to say what he said rather than the Vice President Mike Pence thing with the picture of the Task Force kneeling in prayer prior to doing anything. Basically, they didn’t do much, so it didn’t really matter.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Engel: The words from Cuomo were very interesting. Perhaps, it is seeing a sea change in these types of things.

Jacobsen: In the Canadian case, we had one coronavirus unrelated, but a similar sentiment, with a case of a killing of more than 22 Canadians, or at least 22 Canadian, which amounts to the deadliest in the history of Canada of its kind. Our prime minister, and quoting now, said, “They were nurses and teachers, correctional officers and RCMP officers. They were someone’s child, someone’s best friend, someone’s partner. Their families deserve more than thoughts and prayers. Canadians deserve more than thoughts and prayers.” So, this followed an “effective immediately” banning of the buying, selling, import, or transport or use of military-grade assault-style weapons. It applies to 1,500 makes and models. So, that kind of statement came around one of the most dramatic murder sprees in Canadian history, which is, at least, 50% more than the one before it. It took an extreme event, more than the previous one. When it comes down to brass tax, even at the national level, there is a sensibility in Canada to have, at least, a boundary between what is reasonable and unreasonable, but it takes extreme circumstances to bring reality to bear upon the situation. I think this is an interesting commentary on North America, as we both know, with the Nones. I know people [Ed. Indi!] have problems with the term, so I won’t go into that.

Engel: I just wanted to comment on what you said. Something similar happened with the Parkland High School killings. A bunch of people were killed. After it happened, a lot of young people themselves – their parents too, but the ones who survived became very active for the movement for sane gun laws. One of the things that they were saying, ‘We don’t want your thoughts and prayers.’ It was the go-to for the politicians who had no intention of strengthening American gun laws or making them saner or anything like that. They had no intention of doing anything. What did they say? They would say, “Our thoughts and prayers are with the victims.” Then you had these kids. These high school kids who survived and saw their classmates have their heads blown off say, “We don’t want the thoughts and prayers. We want action. We want action on gun laws.” Which, by the way, we haven’t had much, except in Florida where this took place. They did pass some laws, not on the federal level, though. What they were saying to these sons of bitches politicians, who said, ‘We give our thoughts and prayers.’ Those who simply give thoughts and prayers, but don’t have to do anything and can get the sympathy of the public, “Oh, he’s a good guy.”

They’re coming out and saying, ‘We don’t want the thoughts and prayers. We want action.’ There is a subtext to that. The subtext is thoughts and prayers don’t do anything. Once you get into that, you think, ‘Wait a minute, thoughts and prayers don’t do anything?’ It is around the corner or a sideways, almost, assault on religion. They’re saying, “Prayers don’t do anything.” They’re talking about a context of gun violence. But if that is the case with regard to gun violence, then, heck, it is the case with pretty much everything. When things happen, when the gun massacre happens in San Antonio, Dayton, or wherever the hell, you are seeing fewer politicians hiding behind the thoughts and prayers fig leaf. The kids want something that actually works. It is an acknowledgement that prayers don’t work. So, I feel like, in this country, there is a little bit of a sea change. But how many people are making the connection? Some will say, “Of course, prayers work. I want new laws.” But if prayers worked, you wouldn’t need new laws. To me, that’s what I saw. Of course, I am an atheist. But I do think, and certainly hope, that this is a change: If they don’t work with gun violence, then they don’t work with anything else. Maybe, this can become a basis for questioning things. This is down the road.

This can apply to coronavirus too. There are a lot of religious people who said, “Jesus is protecting me,” “Allah is protecting me,” etc. Now, many are dead. Will people see the connection and see that this doesn’t work? If it doesn’t work with coronavirus or gun violence, then, maybe, it is time to question whether it works at all – and why or why not.

Jacobsen: Have you ever seen the “God Is Not Dead” series?

Engel: I have never seen it. I have heard of it, though.

Jacobsen: It has people like Kevin Sorbos in it.

Engel: [Laughing] I heard of him. He was Hercules or something like this.

Jacobsen: That’s right. He was a popular television star in the United States for the Hercules series among other things. I think he played the part of the atheist for it. I have seen clips and trailers, and some of the contexts and the script of it. Some of the commentaries on the film talks about a whole genre of Christian film with a consistent theme of a “Christian persecution complex.” This is coming out of American film or cinematography. It makes me think. When you have these kids coming out and saying these things in America, when at the same time there is a reaction of feeling under siege in America, how did the prominent Christian community who would be within the culture of a Christian persecution complex react to kids saying, “No more thoughts and prayers,” after several of their friends had been murdered in daylight before them?

Engel: Basically, they tied themselves in knots. There were some on the far-right, not necessarily religious leaders per se. My recollection, there were some who came out and attacked. There are the absolute far-right QAnon lunatics who said, “The whole thing was faked. No kids died. It was actors.” But then, you have people attacking them, “What do they know?” Going after them personally.

Jacobsen: They were going after kids?

Engel: A lot of the mainstream religious leaders, it was too fraught for them to come after these kids. For crying out loud, the things these kids went through. Even if they didn’t realize it would be wrong to go after these kids, they understand from a public relations standpoint. There is no attacking these kids, except for the extreme, extreme lunatic right. There is no attacking the kids and getting away with it, after what they had been through, especially after they said, ‘We don’t want your prayers.” They want action. As I said, there is a basic underlying understanding there; prayers aren’t action because they don’t do anything. The mainstream has gone farther and farther to the right in this country. It is one of the things, maybe, why young people are so powerful. They did manage to change some laws in Florida. Federally, they are still working on it. But are you going to attack these kids for saying, “Prayers don’t work”? It was too fraught, except for the most extreme lunatics to go after them.

Jacobsen: What is the long game here for thoughts and prayers culture in America?

Engel: These culture wars in the United States. I’m not sure. Nobody knows for sure how it will turn out. But the long game in a lot of ways is being out there and being an out atheist, having people know who you are – having people see you, etc. To get to the point where being an atheist is no different than being a Protestant, a Catholic, or a Jew, it is that type of basic understanding and basic acceptance of people who have different views. I don’t know how we get to that. I’m not really sure. But I think that’s the long game. Things like this. There are things like talking about Christian leaders and people who are saying, “We are giving up our safety, etc.” There has been a lot of backlashes. There will be a lot of backlashes. Awakenings here and there of religious fervour, but, hopefully, the further that we get down the track, the more people understand and can see for themselves. It is a matter of having to think for yourself. People will support you. But you have to think for yourself. We have to go ahead and teach our children to think for themselves. Once people feel more comfortable with it, I would hope that they would not need to have somebody telling them how to think because they understand that they can think for themselves. We are a long way from that, but people like you and I are fighting for it every day. We have to keep up the fight. Hopefully, as these things happen, they are gradual. Gradually, people will see thinking for themselves is liberating as opposed to being frightening.

Jacobsen: Jon, thank you!

Engel: Okay, Scott, thanks!

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2022-05-13

Interview with Rev. Rob MacPherson – Minister, Unitarian Church of South Australia

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): Canadian Atheist

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2020/06/06

Rev. Rob MacPherson is a Minister of the Unitarian Church of South Australia. Here we talk about coming to Unitarian Universalism, community, and philosophy.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start with some background questions quite naturally, what was some religious, or non-religious, background?

Rev. Rob MacPherson: I was raised a working class Catholic in a parish in the Archdiocese of Baltimore, the oldest Diocese in the country.

Jacobsen: How was religion talked about in the home, approached in the community, and established as a factor in friendships in earlier life?

MacPherson: The parish, and the parish school we went to, and the Boy Scout troupe the church sponsored, amounted to a sub-culture within our wider locality. Most of our friends and associates were in some way affiliated with the parish. It was more like a cult hiding in plain sight. My parents were very devout–my sister played the organ, my father was a cantor, my mother taught Sunday school and was involved in women’s groups like Sodality, and my brothers and I were altar boys. The nuns were to be feared, the priests were gods, and a visit from the bishop was like the second coming. It was total indoctrination through social manipulation, psychological pressure, and the epistemic authority of the Church.

Jacobsen: What was the point of affirming Unitarian Universalist values for you?

MacPherson: A free and responsible individualized spiritual journey.

Jacobsen: If you think about the ways in which Unitarian Universalism lives out its principles and is like by most people, except various forms of fundamentalists, what brings people into community? Because a large number of people exist in these churches and communities than they may realize at this time.

MacPherson: They come because they are seeking a genuine, non-mediated experience of spirituality that makes sense to them. If they stay, it’s because they find they like to be around fellow religious misfits, and can sit with people with whom they fundamentally disagree about important things.

Jacobsen: When did you decide to become a reverend?

MacPherson: I had ‘the call’ in 2006.

Jacobsen: What is the process for becoming a reverend?

MacPherson: There are a few pathways, but none of them in Australia. I applied for training with the UK Unitarians (I am also a UK citizen). After the paper application filtering stage, they invited 6 of the applicants to their school at Harris Manchester Oxford for a weekend’s in-person interviews and auditions. Of the 6, 5 were accepted for training. 4 became Ministers, and now only 2 of us are left in full-time ministry. I was sent to Unitarian College Manchester to train. I took a Postgrad Dip in Contextual Theology (accredited by Uni Manchester) after one year living there on a 10k bursary and my own savings. I was set to do a second year as an student pastor of a small congregation somewhere in the UK, but my Adelaide congregation was in crisis and called me back to take the pulpit prematurely in mid-2011. As a result I am what’s called ‘locally ordained’ as I never finished the apprenticeship in the UK. I have since applied to the UUA for full accreditation after nearly ten years on the job full time. That process should be completed by the end of this year and I will be accredited by the UUA.

Jacobsen: Now, you’re at Unitarian Church of South Australia. What does a typical service look like before coronavirus?

MacPherson: About 60-75 minutes of singing, music, storytelling, sharing check-ins, preaching and mediations/reflection, all supported by a projector AV system.

Jacobsen: What does a typical service look like during coronavirus restrictions?

MacPherson: They vary according to who’s taking the service–since March this year, I stepped down to part-time status to take up a full-time chaplaincy at the Pembroke school, so am only offering one service a month. Mine is an uploaded ppt slideshow with hotlinks for music singalongs and reflection music, plus a YouTube version of the same service. There’s a children’s story, a guided meditation, a reading, some invocations, and an address.

Jacobsen: With services moving online and with the podcast running, what have been some of the more popular themes and ideas?

MacPherson: Not sure I understand this question–themes and ideas of services or of the move to digital?

Jacobsen: You were preceded by Rev. Jo Lane from 2006-2011 and have been the Rev. for the Unitarian Church of South Australia since 2011. What has been learned while part of the community for such a long time?

MacPherson: Too much to say on this, but here are a few scraps–That everyone you meet has something to teach you, so they must be welcomed with a joyful and humble heart. That continual transformation is the purpose and path of ministry, and so keeping your own soul still and still moving is far more critical than trying to influence or shape that of others. That ministry of the word is a slow process of accretion. That the medium of the Spirit (the minister) is the message–it matters more what sort of person you are with them, than what you say. That church is at its best when it’s not a debate society, nor a book club, nor a ladies-of-a-certain-age gardening and knitting circle. Church is at its best when it provides a safe space for worshippers to travel deep into themselves, bear up others with whom they have little in common, be radically open to the world outside its walls.

Jacobsen: You have a focus on social justice and community outreach. Some of the programs and areas of focus include Australian Churches Refugee Taskforce (ACRT), Australian Religious Response to Climate Change (ARRCC), The Welcoming Congregation Program, and with a focus on asylum seekers, marriage equality, and poverty alleviation. Can you expand on some of the manifestations of the programs and areas of focus in community, please?

MacPherson: Mainly advocacy. We go to demos as a visibly branded church group, thus sending he message that our theology is in accord with human rights. I have spoken at public gatherings, written journalism, done TV interviews to offer a liberal religious response to things that matter in contemporary life. As a church, we divested from non-ethical investments and are now a model small church for the ARRCC. We have invited guest speakers to our hosted public talks on a range of such topics. We have collected for related charities, petitioned, and offered our meeting house free for non profit social justice groups.

Jacobsen: Who are the Kaurna people? What is the importance of land acknowledgement for the Unitarian Church of South Australia?

MacPherson: They are the traditional indigenous owners of the land of the Adelaide Plains where the church has drawn its life and livelihood since 1854. They are part of the oldest continuous human culture on the planet, and their experience is of a strong spiritual bond with the land itself. This land was conquered, but has never been ceded, and it is of continuing spiritual importance to the many living Kaurna people today. The least we can do as recent settlers is to acknowledge this and pay our respect. It is a way of humbling ourselves, seeking reconciliation, and ultimately justice.

Jacobsen: What is Lectio Divina?

MacPherson: I means “divine reading”, and is an old Catholic mystical practice which I’ve adapted to the UU theology. Basically it uses (not a Bible but) a book of crowd-sourced readings, anything people associated with the church have turned to for inspiration, consolation or guidance. We read, reflect, and allow ourselves to free associate about it with the question–‘what is this trying to say to me here and now.’ We do not debate each others’ responses, but allow each their own experience of the words.

Jacobsen: How are the principles of sources of wisdom lived out in the life of a UU member?

MacPherson: That’s up to each individual. We are non-doctrinal and reject coercion.

Jacobsen: If people want to become involved, how can they do so?

MacPherson: Contact the church, follow us on our many digital platforms, attend Sunday worship. Get involved in some of our groups. A good place to start is to chat to me about what you’re seeking and what your expectations are.

Jacobsen: Any recommended books or speakers on the subject?

MacPherson: Leading contemporary voices in our movement include Rev Forrest Church and Rev Marylin Sewell. There are introductions and UU ‘pocket guides’ available a uua.org.

Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the interview today?

MacPherson: Nope, thanks for the chance to talk about our movement!

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Rev. MacPherson.

MacPherson: You are very welcome.

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