Author(s): Peter Singer and Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/04
Ira W. DeCamp Professor of Bioethics, Princeton University & Laureate Professor, Centre for Applied Philosophy and Public Ethics, University of Melbourne
With long-awaited and great pleasure, I am introducing or bringing one of the most well-known and controversial ethicists (and atheists) in the (current) modern world, Professor Peter Singer, to Canadian Atheist. Singer is the Ira W. DeCamp Professor of Bioethics in the University Center for Human Values at Princeton University & Laureate Professor at the University of Melbourne, in the School of Historical and Philosophical Studies. He has been termed the “world’s most influential living philosopher” by some journalists. His work dealing with the ethics of the human treatment of animals has been credited with the foundations of the modern animal rights movement. His writing assisted in the development of Effective Altruism. He has made a controversial critique of the sanctity of life ethics in bioethics. He co-founded Animals Australia, formerly the Australian Federation of Animal Societies. Australia’s “largest and most effective animal organization.” He founded The Life You Can Save (see interview for ebook and audiobook options for a book by the same name as the organization). Other important writings include his 1972 essay “Famine, Affluence, and Morality” and books entitled The Life You Can Save (2009) and The Most Good You Can Do (2015). He has done a TED talk entitled “The why and how of effective altruism” garnering nearly 2,000,000 views.
Here we talk about Effective Altruism and The Life You Can Save.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the development of the formal ethical system by you? How has this evolved over time into Effective Altruism?
Singer: My ethical system is utilitarianism: the right act is the one that will lead to the best consequences, for all affected. Utilitarianism leads to Effective Altruism, because EA is about doing the most good we can, and using reason and evidence to find out what choices will do the most good — choices like donating to the most effective charities and also your choice of career. But you don’t have to be a utilitarian to be an EA.
Jacobsen: Who do you consider the most significant intellectual precursors to the development of Effective Altruism? Who are some lesser-known names who deserve due credit for their contributions to this ethical system?
Singer: As I have said, utilitarian thinking is a kind of precursor to EA, so the founders of utilitarianism can be seen as precursors of EA — Jeremy Bentham, John Stuart Mill, and Henry Sidgwick, in particular. But with regard to the birth of EA itself, around 2008 and in the following years, young philosophy students like Toby Ord and Will MacAskill played a crucial role.
Jacobsen: What do you consider the most significant and powerful argument in favour of Effective Altruism?
Singer: It’s the simple idea of getting value for your money, or your time. We all want to do that when buying something for ourselves. Imagine impulsively buying a new laptop, and paying twice as much as your friend — who did some online research before deciding what to buy — paid for hers, and ending up with a laptop that isn’t even as good as hers! Wouldn’t you feel stupid? But that’s exactly what people do when they impulsively give to a charity that has an appealing picture of a child on its website. A little research could often show you that some charities do not just twice as much good per dollar spent as others, but 10 or 100 times as much good.
Jacobsen: What do you consider the most significant and powerful argument against Effective Altruism?
Singer: EA research points to the interventions that do measurable good, and this tends to mean that it encourages people to donate to charities that save lives cheaply, say by distributing bednets against malaria, or that restore sight in people with cataracts, or eliminate internal parasites. It’s much harder to measure bigger, long-term interventions, like attempts to eliminate agricultural subsidies in rich nations that hurt smallholder farmers in poor countries, because the subsidised crops undercut their ability to earn income on the global market.
Jacobsen: What have been the most controversial positions following from the ethics of Effective Altruism for you? How has the general public reacted to them? How have the community of ethicists reacted to them? What do you consider the appropriate responses to said reactions from both the general public and the community of ethicists, professional moral theorists?
Singer: In some circles, it’s controversial to say that we should not donate to art museums or opera houses, because we can do so much more good by donating to charities helping people in extreme poverty in low-income countries. Most ethicists agree with that, but not people involved in the arts.
The most appropriate response is, in my view, just to state the obvious: for the cost of, say, a $500 million renovation of the main concert hall at the Lincoln Center in New York, it would have been possible to restore sight, or prevent blindness, in 5 million people. What’s more important? Giving wealthy concert-lovers a nicer venue, or enabling 5 million people, in countries where there is no support for people with disabilities, to see?
Jacobsen: What do you consider the most significant derivative from Effective Altruism?
Singer: Substantial amounts of money — billions of dollars — flowing to organizations that do a lot of good with it.
Jacobsen: You are an atheist. How does this build into the system of Effective Altruism?
Singer: EA fits well with atheism because it’s not about obeying moral rules handed down by a divine being, nor about following sacred texts, or religious leaders. It encourages us to focus on what we all value for ourselves and those we care about — reducing pain and suffering, increasing happiness, giving people more fulfilling lives — and to recognize that just as these things are important for us, they are important for everyone else capable of experiencing them — and not only humans, but all sentient beings.
On the other hand, you don’t have to be an atheist to be an EA. In fact, Christians who believe that the gospels are true accounts of what Jesus said should all be EAs, because he told them, in many different passages, to help the poor. It’s surprising, really, how many rich Christians there are who just ignore all of that.
Jacobsen: Is traditional religion and fundamentalist religion a net negative or a net positive in this ethical system?
Singer: That’s a very big question, and not easy to answer. The major religions do emphasize obligations to give to the poor, and that’s good. But they do lots of other things that are bad — the terrorism perpetrated by some Islamic fundamentalists is the most obvious example, but opposing contraception, abortion, same-sex relationships, and medical aid in dying are other examples.
Jacobsen: You debated on the purported resurrection of a supposed divine figure called Yeshua ben Josef or Jesus Christ. What place do supernatural, metaphysical, and naturalistic claims have in Ethical Altruism? Most atheists would probably dismiss the first, might consider the second, and would place much emphasis on the third category.
Singer: I think EAs would agree with the atheists you describe, except perhaps that as many of them are interested in philosophy, they would spend more time discussing metaphysics than non-philosophers might do.
Jacobsen: Any upcoming exciting projects, recommended authors/organizations/speakers?
Singer: I’ve recently completed a fully revised and updated 10th-anniversary edition of my book The Life You Can Save, and I’m delighted to tell all your followers that they can download a completely FREE eBook or audiobook from www.thelifeyoucansave.org. Print copies can be bought from online booksellers or your local bookstore.
Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on this long-awaited interview?
Singer: Sorry I kept you waiting so long! My final thought is: if you agree with me, please make it practical! Check out www.thelifeyoucansave.org and see what you can do.
Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Singer.
Singer: Thanks and all the best to you.
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In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
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Author(s): Steven Pinker and Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/04
In a prior job at Conatus News in the United Kingdom, I conducted an interview with the prominent and respected author and philosopher of science, Dr. Rebecca Newberger Goldstein, who agreed to the interview and made some thoughtful comments about the idea of the “conatus” or the idea of an “effort or willing of something in order to improve itself.” This came with a context. She understood the intellectual environs and inspiration of the “conatus” coming from deceased philosopher Baruch Spinoza and others. Goldstein has a sentiment towards Spinoza, akin to Bertrand Russell’s when he said, “Spinoza is the noblest and most lovable of the great philosophers. Intellectually, some others have surpassed him, but ethically he is supreme.” As serendipity presents itself, sometimes, one can get the opportunity to interview an individual of similar intellectual calibre within many of the same philosophical traditions and ethical outlooks. Serendipity came through financial and social media assistance on the part of Professor Pinker towards an initiative to combat a particular form of superstition and supernatural belief in Africa. As it so happens, also, Pinker and Goldstein have been married since 2007. Professor Pinker is the Johnstone Family Professor of Psychology at Harvard University. His most recent book is Enlightenment Now: The Case for Reason, Science, Humanism, and Progress. With great pleasure, I present the interview with Professor Pinker from yesterday here, where we discuss current events in the United States in a larger non-pollyannaish context, journalism, cognitive biases, supernatural beliefs, creationism, global democratic movements, the language faculty, sex and gender differences, and Humanism.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s start from the top with some of the current events in the United States, and some of the things happening in the world as well, if we look at some of the more current events in the United States over the last two weeks, it can given the impression of things being quite negative, in terms of the apparent destruction of property and violence against some citizens and authorities. Your recent work has been based around cataloguing long-term trends happening around the world, including in the United States. One of the caveats that you tend to give is that it is not pollyannaish in its perspective as well. So, what would be a broader perspective, even in the midst of some of the sociopolitical upheaval happening in the United States now?
Professor Steven Pinker: The overall levels of violence, including police shootings of civilians, were worse in the past. It’s unfortunate that this has been a long-simmering problem, particularly in the United States, where police kill far too many civilians. We should be grateful. Finally, this problem is going to be addressed. It is unavoidable. However, our impression of the present moment compared to other times should not be compared to the news of the day because the news is a highly non-random sample of the worse things happening on the planet on any given day. They can give a highly misleading picture of the trajectory of the world. The things that go right tend to be non-newsworthy. The country is not at war. That’s not news.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Pinker: Things that tend to get better creep up a few percentage points per year, which can then compound and transform the planet. However, if they don’t take place on a Thursday in February, then we will never read about them. While not denying terrible things can happen, indeed, an acknowledgement of human progress is not the same as the belief that nothing bad ever happens or things get better by themselves. We’re apt to underestimate progress when our source of information about the world comes through the news.
Jacobsen: Does this make a general statement about journalism and reportage, even in prestigious Western publications such as The New York Times, coming to the phrase, “If it bleeds, it leads”?
Pinker: Indeed, this is not to cast aspersions on the essential role of the mainstream media in our understanding of the world because it is the reporters who have the commitment to disinterested search of information. It is the institutions of fact-checking and editorial responsibility that are the only window to the world. It is not an accusation of any sinister, or even commercial, motive, but, rather, a kind of innumeracy. A kind of failure to appreciate the distortions coming about by sampling. In particular, the sample of the worst things taking place anywhere on the planet. The insensitivity to time scales. Something can go wrong very quickly. Something going right tends to be protracted over time. Also, a part of our psychology is unduly affected by the images, anecdotes, and narratives. Cognitive psychologists call this the Availability Bias/Heuristic. Events available in memory – because of vividness, recency, and concreteness – will tend to distort estimates of risk likelihood and probability.
Jacobsen: Even if we take the research of distinguished professors like Elizabeth Loftus at the University of California, Irvine, there is a robust phenomenon of False Memories and Rich False Memories. If we are taking social activism and political events over the scale of decades, does this further compound the cognitive biases with information recalled and observed and brought to the news?
Pinker: It is an additional source of distortion of our perception of the world. Above and beyond the fact, we are overly influenced by events and narratives. There is the problem: we don’t particularly remember them accurately, as Elizabeth Loftus’s work has shown. We tend to tidy up the details of our memories. So, they fit a coherent narrative. Our memories can be edited retrospectively by the way we think about them, the occasions of recollection. After we recall a memory, the filing back of the memory can be distorting once more. It is an additional source of cognitive impairment. All educated people should be aware of it, including journalists.
Jacobsen: Are there particular types of biases coming forward in more established mainstream institutional news organizations compared to more independent journalism?
Pinker: There can be. Overall, large journalistic institutions can afford editors and fact-checkers, and reporters to be sent out to remote and inhospitable locations. Plus, they have a reputation to defend. So, if they are caught on record with egregious distortions, then that will subtract from the reputation. There are some reasons for the big institutions needing to be more accurate. On the other hand, there are some reasons for reduced accuracy`. If there is a particular worldview, ideology, or mindset, often, it is hard to recognize them in yourself. There’s a quote, which I love, from the economist Joan Robinson, “Ideology is like breath. You never smell your own.”
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Pinker: [Laughing] If an institution, including a journalistic institution, is captured by a political faction, whether on the left or the right, we know from a body of psychological research of a third type of distortion. Namely, the desire to filter evidence, so it reinforces beliefs held already by you. With Confirmation Bias, we tend to subscribe to themes and commentaries affirming beliefs rather than challenging them. We tend to be hardnosed methodological purists when it comes to research contradicting personal beliefs. Whereas, we tend to give an easy pass when it comes to research that confirms them. Indeed, political biases, almost a tribalism where the tribes are not ethnographic units or sports teams, are ideologies on the left or the right. They can be a major source of misunderstanding. Again, there is a biased bias. Where everyone is willing to admit this is true about the other side, their side is seen as completely objective and clear-eyed. There is reason to believe this is not true. In fact, we can find distortions in the factual understanding on both the left and the right.
Jacobsen: In the United States more so than Canada, and the United Kingdom much less so than Canada, there are a lot of supernatural beliefs across the board, whether devils, ghosts, all sorts of things. How do these then creep into some of the perceptions of a lot of the general public, even if they are reading decent, reliable, and validated reportage in the news?
Pinker: Yes, I am not aware of data comparing countries. What you say doesn’t surprise me, in a lot of measures of wellbeing and rationality, the United States punches well below its wealth.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Pinker: It is among the world’s wealthiest countries. It ought to be the healthiest, happiest, and the smartest in the world. It does okay.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Pinker: In many ways, it trails Canada and other affluent democracies. I wouldn’t be surprised if supernatural belief is one. Certainly, religious belief is one. Americans are more religious than any affluent democracy. The United States is an outlier. There are beliefs, which we don’t categorize as religion. They are supernatural or New Age. They are surprisingly prevalent in a lot of countries. Why would this be more the case in the United States assuming the science shows this? The scientific and pseudoscientific beliefs do not come from a first-hand knowledge of the relevant scientific literatures. Frankly, I am not enough of a population geneticist, climate scientist, or neuroscientist to defend all personal beliefs about the brain, the soul, the climate, and evolution. However, I know the way science works. They are the tribe for me. I know the intellectual ecosystem. It is peer review. It is open debate. If someone were to come up with a really good refutation of some dogma, then this would be a good career move because the upstart is often rewarded. I tend to believe: If something is in the scientific mainstream, then it is, typically, a better source of objective understanding than some random thing forwarded from Twitter or email.
On the other hand, there are people without this belief. They treat the scientific consensus, the consensus of institutions such as government and academia and hospitals and mainstream media, as another opinion. No more reliable than something retweeted. Tests of scientific knowledge when it comes to climate show people who accept the scientific consensus are not necessarily more informed than others who do not accept it. For those who accept manmade climate change, they think this has something to do with plastic straws and holes in the ozone. Climate change dealing with a sense of greenness. Their own not-so scientific beliefs happen to align with the scientific consensus because they tend to follow, more or less, the consensus. However, for people alienated from mainstream institutions, they have no reason to take this any more seriously than pronouncements of President Donald Trump. In the United States, assuming a greater degree of belief in the paranormal, pseudoscience, and so on, in addition to the well-documented level of religious belief, it may lead to greater alienation from mainstream institutions, which tend to be more trusted in other wealthy democracies, I assume.
Jacobsen: Skeptical Inquirer published a good article, recently. It had to do with Nobel Prize winners, some, who held not exactly the most robustly validated positions. In other words, it was a comparison between individuals who would very likely score very high on general intelligence while having certain forms of irrational beliefs. It is not directly related, but it is along the same line of thinking of some of the research into people who score very high on intelligence tests, general intelligence tests, having particular kinds of tendencies in irrational thinking. Is general intelligence a factor here when it comes to pseudoscientific beliefs, supernatural beliefs, and various forms of fundamentalist religious beliefs?
Pinker: It is a factor, but it is like anything in psychology or social science. There are correlations. They are significant, but well below 0.10.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] Right.
Pinker: [Laughing] People who score higher on IQ tests. They are more likely to be atheists. Also, they are more likely to get education, less likely to fall prey to fallacies of statistical reasoning. However, there are no shortage of exceptions to the correlations.
Jacobsen: In the United States, there has been a longstanding effort to try to combat the perceived encroachment of an atheist worldview or a secular frame of mind, especially in regard to evolution via natural selection. So, organizations like the Discovery Institute. Philip Johnson died last year in November. He is the legal mind of the orientation. The other two are Michael Behe and William Dembski for the molecular biology and information theoretic foundations of Intelligent Design creationism, respectively. They have been working for decades to try to impose creationist thought in the education system by skipping all manner of regular modern scientific procedure with peer review, debate, experiment, etc. Instead, they attempted to go straight to the high school system in the textbooks. So, when it comes to some, not simply errors in reasoning or correlations between general intelligence and certain forms of supernatural and pseudoscientific beliefs, what about these direct efforts to try to reduce the level of correct scientific and empirical theories, most substantiated theories, of the world seen today?
Pinker: Indeed, though, the Discovery Institute and the smarter creationists have been clever at insinuating what are disguised religious beliefs in the guise of scientific controversy. On two occasions, my hometown paper, the Boston Globe, one of the prestigious papers in the United States, published op-eds by people from the Discovery Institute trying to sew confusion about evolution. I complained in both instances to the editorial page. The editor was tricked by a fairly clever campaign to make this seem as if it was in the realm of ongoing scientific controversy. In that, it was a secular argument for Intelligent Design. Whereas, as the Kitzmiller case in Dover in 2005 established, there’s no question: This is disguised religious propaganda. Knowing the separation of church and state, at least in the United States, they realize the need to work around it. They were given a stunning defeat in 2005, but, certainly, they have not given up.
Jacobsen: Some of the earliest work was on an innate capacity of language. When it comes to a lot of the innate capacities, I, often, think of the cognitive biases, which appear, more or less, hardwired in how human beings evolved. When it comes to some of the attempts to educate along the lines of critical thinking, science, and empiricism, general rationality, even if there was pervasive critical thinking education, science education, logical reasoning education, and so on, from elementary school through to the end of high school, would there be an asymptote at some level in terms of the level of rationality to inculcate in the society, including among the wealthiest?
Pinker: Humans, certainly, are a rational species. In that, we have taken over the planet, even long before the Industrial Revolution and the age of colonization. From a homeland in Africa, humans outsmarted plants and animals in a variety of ecosystems because they could develop mental models about the ways the world worked. They were not so superstitious to not know when it could get cooler, how to track down an animal, and how to detoxify a plant. We have an innate capacity for reason. It seems rooted in the physical world, the concrete world, or the cause-and-effect arrows determining our survival. When it comes to history before we were born, when it comes to parts of the world where we don’t live, when it comes to things too small to see, or places too far away to live, we are susceptible to myths and fairytales. Probably, it’s because most of the history of the species existed before the era of science, statistics, and modern education. It didn’t matter much. On the creation of the cosmos, you could believe anything.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Pinker: A lot of beliefs were not in the realm of truth and falsity. Our modern attitude states, “We ought to apply this to all of our beliefs.” Rather, we look for narrative appeals of the story and the moral utility. That is, is this good for galvanizing people to do the right things? Whether it is true or false, it a secondary concern for a lot of our beliefs. I think this is true of a lot of religious beliefs. It is not even clear, whether religious beliefs for religious people are deep down believed to be true. In that, this is seen as an important belief to hold, or not, in spite of its truthfulness. I believe our cognitive systems have these two different kinds of belief. Modernity has seen the expansion and encroachment of the factual, scientific, logical, and historical, over the mythological, the narrative, the fable, and the morality tales. However, human nature makes the myth, the narrative, and the fable always pushback. We need, in the education system, political discourse, and journalistic discourse, an affirmation of the idea: some things are true; some things are false. We do not know, at any given time, what they are because we are not omniscient. We are not infallible. We have methods, which steer us on a path to greater truth, including the scientific method. We ought to valorize attempts at objectivity, even when they tug at our moral narratives or moral convictions.
Jacobsen: One of the approaches endorsed by you, which, I believe, comes from the late Hans Rosling: “factfulness.” What is factfulness? How does this reorient a lot of the discourses, whether floating in online spaces or some professional circles?
Pinker: Yes, I wish I came up with the word “factfulness.”
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Pinker: It is an excellent addition to the English language suggested by a native speaker of Swedish, the late Hans Rosling, and his son, Ola Rosling, and daughter-in-law, Anna Rosling Rönnlund. Factfulness is the mindset of basing beliefs on the best vetted facts. In their case, and in mine, e.g., the book Enlightenment Now coming out shortly before Factfulness and partly based on Rosling’s data, it is the sense of the arc of history, of the state of the world now, should be driven by the best and most comprehensive data rather than by the headlines. Indeed, Rosling showed, in a number of surveys in The Ignorance Project, most people are out to lunch on knowledge of basic world developments such as people becoming richer or poorer on the whole, the percentage of kids who are vaccinated, the percentage of kids who are educated and literate. The majority of people believe things continue to get worse. People have not escaped poverty. Most people are illiterate. When in most cases, it is the great majorities.
Jacobsen: One of the big metrics, I believe the late Christopher Hitchens noted this in a debate with Tony Blair. The single best metric for the development of society is probably coming under the guise of the phrase: “The empowerment of women.” If women have equal rights on a variety of measures, whether reproductive health rights, economic access, educational access, and so on, the societies tend to be much healthier, and wealthier. What are some other metrics having an overall positive correlation with the health and wealth of a society?
Pinker: Yes, I think that is the essential question. To the frustration of social scientists, when you make comparisons across countries, across American states, across time periods, a lot of things get confounded. So, when you search for a cause and effect story, you need to be a really clever statistician or econometrician because countries with more empowered women are healthier, wealthier, more democratic. The questions: Which one is the cause? Which ones are the beneficial effects? The answer may be each of them reinforces each of the others. In countries with greater wealth, they will be less likely to imprison women in the kitchen and the nursery. Yet, when you have 50% of the population to apply their brainpower to the society’s problems, then this will likely make them richer moving forward. Likewise, richer countries tend to be able to afford schools and keep kids out of the fields and the factories. When you have a generation of kids who are better educated, they tend to be more receptive to the empowerment of women. It is an irrefutable idea [Laughing]. The idea of keeping half of the population in a state of oppression doesn’t make sense, when you observe the outcomes of societies empowering women. Other progressive belief systems such as the value of democracy over tyranny, the value of peace over conflict. These tend to correlate with better, more educated populaces.
I think Hitchens is right. In that, the empowerment of women is one driver. Although, it is hard to say, “It is the first driver.” In that, in any given society, if you simply educated girls, and if there were no other changes in health and infrastructure, then the society would improve. Certainly, it is a contributor. One way to think about this. Francis Fukuyama once said the key problem in human progress or human development, “How do we get to Denmark?” In this sense, Denmark is a lot like many countries. It has poverty. It has crime, but much less. In many ways, you could pick Norway. However, there are many, many better places to live than others. We can see how people vote with their feet. People, literally, want to get to Denmark via immigration there. It gives a benchmark for, at least at present, the highest places to aspire. Ideally, we would get the rest of the world to a state of happiness, health, and education, as Denmark. A lot of things differentiate Denmark from Togo or Bangladesh. Women’s empowerment would be one of them.
Jacobsen: What about the number of democracies in the world now? What about the strengths of the democracies? Is it fewer or more? Even if we take the total count, how robust are these democracies?
Pinker: In the past decade, the world has been more democratic than any other historical period and decade. There has been some backsliding in the past few years. Russia, Turkey, Hungary, and Brazil, for example, have slid back, including the United States and India. However, there is no comparison to the 1970s, when I was in the university system. There were experts predicting democracy would go the way of monarchy. A nice arrangement while it lasted.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Pinker: It is good to remember. Even with the alarming regression in democracy, we are seeing it. It is slight compared to the previous times of the world. Half of Europe was behind the Iron Curtain until 1989, living under totalitarian communistic dictatorships. Most of Latin America was under rightwing or military dictatorships. In East Asia, you had South Korea, Taiwan, and Indonesia under rightwing military dictatorships. All of them more or less democratic today. It is true. You cannot dichotomize the world into democratic and autocratic because a lot of crappy democracies exist. In that, people have the right to vote, but the government manipulates the vote. Either by outright fraud, by penalizing/outlawing opposition parties, by using the government organs as propaganda for the regime in power, by harassing journalists and opposition leaders on trumped up corruption charges, and so on, by dismantling civil society institutions like universities as Hungary did with the Central European University. That’s why a number of organizations give countries a grade. Sometimes, it is from minus 10 to plus 10 on an autocracy to a democracy scale.
Jacobsen: To the earliest work for you, as far as I know, it was language. You built off a lot of the work by Noam Chomsky or highly inspired by the work of Noam Chomsky. What is language, fundamentally, in terms of the modern research?
Pinker: My interests, in fact, were in all of human nature and human behaviour. I worked in visual imagery, auditory perception at McGill University before venturing into language. I did research into behaviour of rats and pigeons while a student as McGill. My first research was on excessive drinking in rats – of water, that is.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Pinker: My interest in language comes from a more general interest in human nature. Language is the most distinctively human trait. Although, it would not have evolved if not for other more distinctively human traits. Zoologically unusual features of homo sapiens including technological knowhow, figuring out how to outsmart plants and animals, how to develop tools and technologies, and social cooperation. We are unusual in the degree of social cooperation with members of the species who we are biologically unrelated. Language, it would not have evolved if we were not on speaking terms. Why share information or knowhow, or say anything to the enemy? The fact of the development of recipes, algorithms, and technologies and tools mean an interest in saying something to one another. We do not talk to merely amuse ourselves. In turn, it makes us valuable to other people as sources of information. It makes us more curious about our relations with other individuals. Language helps negotiate partnerships, spread gossip about partnerships to avoid, and so on. The three abilities – language, knowhow, and sociality – co-evolved. My original interest in language came from an interest in baby’s acquisition of it. This was a question for Chomsky. He did not study children’s language. He set a central theoretical problem in understanding language: How do we develop language in the first place? People need to learn to read, but not to speak.
All human societies have language without the benefit of some central committee with everything planned. The development and acquisition of language is part and parcel of the essence of human nature. For Chomsky, he implied a rich innate structure to language. Obviously, we can’t come into the world knowing anything about English, Japanese, Yiddish, or Swahili, but Chomsky proposed an innate universal grammar. That is, computational machinery optimized for language. Now, it is very hard to pin down what would go into this universal grammar. There is an enormous controversy around it. There is by no means a consensus in the researchers studying language. The challenge of explaining how kids learn language. It led me to being sympathetic to the idea of innate constraints or pre-programming of the possibilities of a language. Kids did not approach language as pure cryptographers trying to decode the probabilistic sequences of one sound after another. They come into the world expecting other people will communicate with them using arbitrary signs arranged by rules. They look for units of sounds. They listen for words. They are sensitive to the ways of combining them. Unless, you have a circuitry programmed to do it. Then kids would flounder around producing sounds approximating language without ever getting the point that a language is a bunch of signals.
Jacobsen: When we look at the various facets of human nature, one of the philosophical assumptions for humanists, like you and I, is human nature is fundamentally good. There are outliers among us. However, in general, human nature is fundamentally a good set up. As a philosophical assertion, how supported is this, empirically?
Pinker: Yes, I wouldn’t put it that way, myself. I stole a phrase from Abraham Lincoln for the title of a book I published, The Better Angels of Our Nature: Why Violence Has Declined, in 2011. Of course, putting aside the angels, it is a lovely metaphor. As it captures, human nature is complex. It has parts. I would not say, “Humans are fundamentally good.” I’d say, “There are subsystems in the human brain, which allows us to be good, e.g., empathy, a moral sense, a capacity for self-control, the power of reason.” However, it is not everything in the skull. We can be callous toward others. We can exploit them, whether exploitative labour, in sex, or through property. Some genders more than others have a stronger sense of dominance.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Pinker: We have a thirst for revenge. Sometimes, it is called justice. We can cultivate a sense of sadism. Depending on the social milieu, different parts of human nature can come to the fore. The challenge is setting up the norms, the institutions, the beliefs, and the laws calling out the better angels and suppressing the inner demons.
Jacobsen: What setups, empirically speaking, tend to bring the subsystems producing behaviours and thoughts, moral sentiments, bringing out the “better angels of our nature”?
Pinker: Democracy is one of them. The idea, no one has the right to dominate anyone else. There is a provisional, circumscribed, and temporary power granted to some individuals subject to recall and oversight to protect us against each other or to maximize public goods. That’s one of them. Cosmopolitan mixing of people and ideas. It becomes harder to demonize others if you know the state of the world in their shoes or from their point of view. Ideas such as human flourishing as the ultimate good rather than national glory or the propagation of dogma or adherence to scripture. The cultivation of a sense of fallibility, corrigibility, knowledge of human limits and human nature. So, we set up our institutions, not because any one of us can claim to be angelic or moral, or infallible or omniscient. Precisely the opposite, we set up rules of the game, so we can approach the truth or the morally best way of arranging our affairs. Even though, no one of us is good or wise enough to attain it. We have mechanisms with democratic checks and balances. We do not empower a benevolent despot because the despots are a guy or a gal complete with human infirmities. We do not allow scientific authorities to legislate a dogma. We have peer review. Even a Nobel Prize winner can’t get his or her stuff published without other people anonymously vetting it, it is part of the norm of science. Anyone can raise their hand and point out a flawed argument of anyone else. We don’t always implement them in as effective a form as desirable. However, those are aspirations. The fact of setting up rules allowing better states of knowledge, better forms of cooperation despite our limitations is a way in which we can outdo ourselves.
Jacobsen: You’ve done a debate or several debates on sex and gender differences. What are the differences between men and women, which are significant? What are some caveats to some of those significant differences?
Pinker: Yes, I consider myself a feminist. I celebrate the incomplete advancement of women’s rights and interests in all walks of life. However, I don’t think feminism demands sameness or interchangeability. In fact, I think it’s rather insulting to women.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Pinker: To say, it makes them worthy of rights, so they’re exactly like men. Because men and women have plenty of bugs, shortcomings, and flaws. Among the differences, the differences in sexuality. Men have a greater taste for sex for its own sake without consideration for emotional commitments. Perhaps, the most recent sign of this comes from the growing industry in sex robots.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Pinker: It is exclusively male. There are others. Men are the more violent gender. The homicide rates tend to be more than 10 times greater for male on male compared to female on female. Men tend to be more interested in things. Women are more interested in people. On average, in cognitive abilities, the differences are smaller and measurable. Men tend to be better at 3-dimensional spatial rotation. Women tend to be better at verbal fluency and arithmetic calculation. Men tend to be greater risk-takers, including stupid risks. There are others. Those are some of the major ones. Two major caveats, we are talking about two overlapping bell curves. For any difference in the averages, there are going to be plenty of women who are better than the average male and plenty of males who are better than the average female in spatial ability, in sexuality, in risk-taking, in interest in gadgets, etc. You name it. Also, we shouldn’t confuse the existence of observed differences amongst the averages or the central tendencies with political or moral rights/obligations. Namely, every individual should be treated as an individual and should have the opportunity to do whatever he or she finds is best for them. Florynce Kennedy once said, “There are very few jobs that actually require a penis or vagina. All other jobs should be open to everybody.”
Jacobsen: [Laughing] That’s a good quote. There’s another facet of this as well. It has to do with the factor of variance. If we look at the extreme levels of either end of the curve, the Gaussian normal distribution, the bell curve, let’s say 4 standard deviations on either side of the average, so, the profoundly gifted or the profoundly not, what shows up in the population of the profoundly gifted or not? For instance, the ratio of men to women at those levels. Also, if we look at the various standardized tests measuring at those levels, insofar as they do, what about the subtest scores in terms of the amount of sameness on all the subtests and the variability on all of the subtests too?
Pinker: There are a number of robust sex differences. There is more variability in men than in women. So, when you go out to the tails in either direction, the sex ratio is different. With the caveat, the farther and farther out one looks at the tails of the distribution, then the smaller and smaller are the sample sizes. So, the data get fuzzier. The other caveat is variance never reaches zero. So, no matter how far out one goes or not, you will see specimens of both sexes. However, in general, there are more men proportionately at the high and low end of most continua for which we have data.
Jacobsen: What are some of the socially predicted outcomes of this kind of variability? How does this manifest itself in society?
Pinker: One of them, if in a completely fair system, let’s say one utterly gender blind, you would not expect a 50/50 ratio in any profession. This has been long obvious to me based on the early career in childhood language acquisition. There was a statistical imbalance in favour of women. Both in sheer numbers and most of the intellectual superstars. In other fields, it may go another way, e.g., mechanical engineering, theoretical physics. Again, people tend to confuse the observation of the numbers as “not 50/50” with the claim of “no women.” It is preposterous. Only a madman would think women aren’t in physics or mechanical engineering. It doesn’t mean the numbers will be 50/50. In turn, it means departure from 50/50 is not, itself, a proof of sexism. Although, there may be sexism. Certainly, there is sexism. We can have any target, any aspiration. We can decide: It is an important social goal for 50/50 outcomes in mechanical engineering. I think this is a dubious goal. It means that we would not achieve the goal merely by a completely fair system. We would have to tilt this in the other direction with affirmative action policies in favour of women. Maybe, this is a social goal. Certainly, it must be a social goal. There should be no discrimination or harassment. Even in a utopian world in which discrimination and harassment fell to zero, we would not automatically end up with 50/50 ratios.
Jacobsen: If we look at a humanist philosophy, by the very nature of it, it is not merely atheism or agnosticism. In that, atheism is, as we know, simply a rejection of the supernatural in the form of gods. Agnosticism is a form of “I don’t know” about it. Humanism takes an ethical approach. At the same time, it incorporates science into its philosophical meanderings. So, it is open to revision. I think this is probably the reason for a moderately amusing thing among humanists, which is to make a lot of declarations (or manifestos) since 1933 forward.
Pinker: [Laughing].
Jacobsen: [Laughing] I wrote an article for a column for the Humanist Association of Toronto. I counted probably about 12.
Pinker: [Laughing].
Jacobsen: [Laughing] There’s, at least, that many. Some saying the same things. Others saying not the same things. You see variations between “ethical humanism” or “humanism.” You see an alternate religious philosophy and then non-dogmatic philosophy without incorporating religious terminology. When I frame this to myself, I look at Humanism as an empirical moral philosophy. By that nature, it will continually evolve as our best scientific understandings of the world evolve through the standard procedures of science mentioned before. If we take into account an ethical philosophy that evolves and will be ever, hopefully, improving based on improvements in our scientific understandings of the world, what do you think will be some of the next steps based on the richer understanding of science and very deep scientific sensibilities for Humanism as an ethical philosophy? What will be a reasonable next step?
Pinker: Yes, I think you’re right in differentiating and linking atheism per se. That is, atheism as the rejection of supernatural beliefs and Humanism has human flourishing as the ultimate moral good, and the scientific worldview states that we ought to base our beliefs on empirical verification and explanatory depth. They reinforce one another. Even though, they are not identical. Next steps, good question, I think some are a deeper understanding of human nature, of the sources of belief, sources of morality, and the conditions in which we are, more or less, rational. Why smart people can believe stupid things or, at least, irrational things? What are the social conditions allowing both humanistic and rational beliefs to bubble up, to become second nature? We have seen some this, particularly since WWII, where institutions are more secular and humanistic on average. However, we have seen the rise of authoritarian nationalism and populism. There are forces pushing against the Enlightenment cosmopolitan humanist worldview. What are the components of human nature allowing us to eke out a more humanistic worldview? What are the parts dragging this nature back down? What are the circumstances allowing human beings to flourish, as another line of inquiry? How come with all the improvements in objective human wellbeing, many countries do not have a commensurate rise in happiness? The United States is, by all measures, better off than 70 years ago. It is not much happier, if at all. Many countries are happier than the United States. Why is there so much grievance and anger despite the measurable improvements in people’s objective wellbeing? These are all fascinating empirical questions, which would reflect back on our moral worldview as well.
Jacobsen: Last question tied to a comment, so, Dr. Leo Igwe and I have been working through Advocacy for Alleged Witches (AfAW) to combat a big issue in the African continent around allegations of witchcraft and disbelief in witchcraft. You’ve made a donation and helped with social media on some coverage of this. So, thank you. There’s still a wide range of rationality and irrationality throughout the regions of the world. There will be wide disparities in the regions of the world based on the education systems, the wealth of the society, the rights implemented and not just stipulated. What do you believe or think needs the most pressure now, in the next few years, to move the dial towards Enlightenment Humanism and scientific rationality more than not?
Pinker: One is a rise in education. We know societies with more education are less vulnerable, though not immune, to supernatural beliefs, not least with witchcraft. An extraordinarily dangerous belief and prevalent across societies being more of a rule than an exception.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Pinker: It has to be singled out as a source of evil. Reminding people of the history, the accusers used to be the accused. Also, there is a need to promote a humanistic enlightened view as an alternative source of values and morality. You alluded to this before in tallying up the number of humanistic declarations. There is a need for them. Not, maybe, the declarations, but, certainly, the moral energy, it is not enough to debunk toxic beliefs. There has to be the promotion of moral values, which we can defend and strive towards. Humanism, for lack of a better word, is that belief system. It is one needing promotion in different guises. That is, it is not a question of appealing to superstitions and supernatural beliefs to be moral. In that, there is a coherent value system; namely, making people wealthier, happier, and healthier, more stimulated and safer, these are good things, moral things, and noble things. We haven’t found the right marketing, the right packaging, in order to promote them as a positive alternative to the toxic beliefs that we’re vulnerable to.
Jacobsen: Professor Pinker, thank you for your time, it was lovely.
Pinker: Thanks so much, Scott, it was good to talk to you.
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Author(s): Richard May and Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/04
Abstract
Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) is a Member of the Mega Society based on a qualifying score on the Mega Test (before 1995) prior to the compromise of the Mega Test and Co-Editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. In self-description, May states: “Not even forgotten in the cosmic microwave background (CMB), I’m an Amish yuppie, born near the rarified regions of Laputa, then and often, above suburban Boston. I’ve done occasional consulting and frequent Sisyphean shlepping. Kafka and Munch have been my therapists and allies. Occasionally I’ve strived to descend from the mists to attain the mythic orientation known as having one’s feet upon the Earth. An ailurophile and a cerebrotonic ectomorph, I write for beings which do not, and never will, exist — writings for no one. I’ve been awarded an M.A. degree, mirabile dictu, in the humanities/philosophy, and U.S. patent for a board game of possible interest to extraterrestrials. I’m a member of the Mega Society, the Omega Society and formerly of Mensa. I’m the founder of the Exa Society, the transfinite Aleph-3 Society and of the renowned Laputans Manqué. I’m a biographee in Who’s Who in the Brane World. My interests include the realization of the idea of humans as incomplete beings with the capacity to complete their own evolution by effecting a change in their being and consciousness. In a moment of presence to myself in inner silence, when I see Richard May’s non-being, ‘I’ am. You can meet me if you go to an empty room.” Some other resources include Stains Upon the Silence: something for no one, McGinnis Genealogy of Crown Point, New York: Hiram Porter McGinnis, Swines List, Solipsist Soliloquies, Board Game, Lulu blog, Memoir of a Non-Irish Non-Jew, and May-Tzu’s posterous. He discusses: “No Mirrors”; and “Sunrise.”
Keywords: Buddhas, Capgras, Finnegan’s Wake, G. I. Gurdjieff, Goethe, I Ching, indeterminacy, James Joyce, Jiddu Krishnamurti Man of Tao, May-Tzu, mirrors, Noesis, recursion, Richard May.
Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “No Mirrors” and “Sunrise”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (8)
*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: “No Mirrors” – ahem – reflects the same pattern as before in this comedic philosophical work. Are there no mirrors, or are there no people to be reflected by the mirrors, or nothing to be reflected and nothing to reflect at all? I ask on behalf of nobody.
Richard May: There are no mirrors that work, i.e., allow one to actually see oneself and there are no individuals to be reflected by the mirrors, only fictional narratives in our brains from which we construct our identities, always playing our favorite character in fiction. See Valentines Moment: https://megasociety.org/noesis/176#29 “ … two opposing mirrors each reflected, and even mirrored, each other with perfect, but depthless, fidelity; empty mirrors looking into each other eternally, or until someone turned off the lights.” and Dr. Capgras Before the Mirrors. “Am ‘I’ actually strobing moment to moment among the shadows of shadows . . . of shadows of uncountable Buddhas in a quantized stream of time or recurring endlessly in some fragmented eternity? Will these replacements of myself happen in the past or have they already happened in the future?” “But who or what is the observer, here before the mirrors, and who or what is the observed?” (Noesis The Journal of the Mega Society Issue #200, January 2016, page 44) https://megasociety.org/noesis/200.pdf Nobody, the Man of Tao, will see what I mean.
Jacobsen: The opening two lines state: Sitting in a room observing myself, sitting in a room observing myself, I ask the prior question within that context. As the point of view of no one is in itself paradoxically formulated when ‘confronted’ with a mirror, it’s the recursion of the system, which continually strikes me in the head like an Acme Co. anvil. So, as if a recursive crash test dummy, why is recursion or a cyclical quality sopopular with you?
May: It a recursion and an indeterminate nested regress. Observing myself — observing myself — observing myself —
Jacobsen: At 16 or some such age, maybe younger actually, I read Finnegan’s Wake,
May: I should be interviewing you or you should be interviewing yourself! \
Jacobsen: painfully. I should have read the preface,
May: I would probably have read only the preface.
Jacobsen: which stipulated, more or less, in the first sentence, ‘The first thing to understand about this text is that it is essentially unreadable.’ (Thanks.)
May: That may also be the 2nd and 3rd thing to understand about the text.
Jacobsen: Yet, I see a similar cyclical quality in this work and in the works of James Joyce. The themes are presented as jokes,
May: “Some subjects are so serious that one can only joke about them.” — Niels Bohr
Jacobsen: as in a Wittgenstein quote. It, definitely, is a philosophical work; it is, certainly, a comedic work; and, it’s, obviously, recursive in character. Did you ever read any Joyce?
May: Any? Oh, yes, the titles of a few of his works, maybe a few pages here and there, the philosophically important parts. I recall one of his characters was fascinated by the farting of his girl friend, undoubtedly as contributing to Gynecogenic Global Warming versus the issue of the suppression of women’s flatus by the Patriarchy, and perhaps another character was very interested in the stains on women’s panties. Divination by panty stains may be an Irish form of divination, perhaps equivalent in subtlety to the I Ching. I go for the quintessence when I read, because of a tendency to subvocalize, attention deficit disorder and a bit of OCD. (Will this be on the ‘test’?)
Jacobsen: The line, “slumped, chin in hand,” brings to immediate mind the posing philosopher stance, the famous sculpture stance of a thinker. A stance supporting a “concatenation of jokes in a black cap…”
May: “a concatenation of jokes in a black cap” is a bit of self mockery.
with “no Buddhas,” which goes to some prior points about there being nobody home to show ‘The Way’ or some such master-slave relation.
May: Eh? Truth is a pathless land. — Jiddu Krishnamurti.
Yet, at the same time, it’s even worse than that… there’s no one home in the stance! This is a headache to think about(!), but for no one. The part seeming ambiguous to me: “black cap.” What is “a black cap” referencing? Do you wear black hats, too? And how so?
May: A cap is a form of headgear or clothing that you wear on your head. I would have thought that some Canadians would have seen caps. Black is the absence of light. Sometimes I have worn black hats or other colors, mostly on my head. “Alles Vergaengliche ist nur ein Gleichnis.” — Goethe. Everything transitory is only an allegory or metaphor (of the eternal). So I suppose that a hat is not actually a hat. But I thought it was a hat.
I used to dwell in what I generously referred to as the Nigerian sewer system, a city often mistakenly thought to be in New York State. It was cold during the winter, which was eternal. Hence, I often wore a hat, even indoors.
Jacobsen: The lines about stealing truth, in some manner, have been explained before. Then, back to recursive text, the closing lines remark on observing yourself sitting in a room. In this manner, the process of thought creates a ‘you’ or a little i. How do you cross the ts and dot the ‘i’s on the “little i,” as in awaken?
May: G. I. Gurdjieff taught a certain process of self-observation. One could observe oneself in various “centers” or minds, somewhat analogous to the Hindu chakras or the centers in Taoist alchemical philosophy. One could strive to be present to oneself in the moment, simultaneously aware of the sensations of the body, the solar plexus or the emotions and the ordinary intellectual mind.
Slumped simply refers to my bad posture.
Jacobsen: “Sunrise” is more of a synesthetic reading experience. We see “no one” referenced who is “listening,” or not, with the “taste of Braille shadows.” I am reminded of the “taste of vagueness,” etc., referenced in other works within the text. You’re a poet, No One, not a politician. You lure others into a world rather than lead them there with a gun.
How was the meal by the way, the “Braille shadows”?
“Sunrise
No one
— listening
— the taste of Braille shadows”
May-Tzu
May: Braille shadows taste somewhat like koans. — Umami Mama, it’s all Dada!
[End Part 8 of Interview]
Abstract
Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) is a Member of the Mega Society based on a qualifying score on the Mega Test (before 1995) prior to the compromise of the Mega Test and Co-Editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. In self-description, May states: “Not even forgotten in the cosmic microwave background (CMB), I’m an Amish yuppie, born near the rarified regions of Laputa, then and often, above suburban Boston. I’ve done occasional consulting and frequent Sisyphean shlepping. Kafka and Munch have been my therapists and allies. Occasionally I’ve strived to descend from the mists to attain the mythic orientation known as having one’s feet upon the Earth. An ailurophile and a cerebrotonic ectomorph, I write for beings which do not, and never will, exist — writings for no one. I’ve been awarded an M.A. degree, mirabile dictu, in the humanities/philosophy, and U.S. patent for a board game of possible interest to extraterrestrials. I’m a member of the Mega Society, the Omega Society and formerly of Mensa. I’m the founder of the Exa Society, the transfinite Aleph-3 Society and of the renowned Laputans Manqué. I’m a biographee in Who’s Who in the Brane World. My interests include the realization of the idea of humans as incomplete beings with the capacity to complete their own evolution by effecting a change in their being and consciousness. In a moment of presence to myself in inner silence, when I see Richard May’s non-being, ‘I’ am. You can meet me if you go to an empty room.” Some other resources include Stains Upon the Silence: something for no one, McGinnis Genealogy of Crown Point, New York: Hiram Porter McGinnis, Swines List, Solipsist Soliloquies, Board Game, Lulu blog, Memoir of a Non-Irish Non-Jew, and May-Tzu’s posterous. He discusses: “Why is There No Sacred Music?”.
Keywords: Eugene Wigner, George Carlin, Gregorian Chants, J.S. Bach, Lewis Eugene Rowell, May-Tzu, Mick Jagger, mirrors, Noesis, Richard Dawkins, Richard May, Salt and Pepper, Sir Fred Hoyle, The Rolling Stones, Vivaldi.
Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Why is There No Sacred Music?”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (9)
*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: “Why is There No Sacred Music?” asks a question, which I must ask: Why is there no sacred music, Tzu?
Richard May[1],[2]*: There’s plenty of sacred music. Have you listened to the musical works of, e.g., Richard Dawkins? The Atheist community has historically written the most transcendent music. Forget J.S. Bach, Vivaldi, and Gregorian chants.
Jacobsen: You wrote, “If sacred music were the only ‘doctrine’ of the church, then I could believe.” George Carlin similarly remarked, “The only good thing ever to come out of religion was the music.” Have you ever had any religious beliefs whatsoever in a mainstream normative sense?
May: Funny, but inaccurate. Carlin missed that Judaism was far more civilizing than Roman pagan religions. The Jews freed their slaves after 7 years, for example. Hillel the Elder, when asked by a pagan to explain Judaism, while standing on one foot, said, ”Do not do to others what you would not have others do to you. All the rest is commentary.” What’s not to like about that?
I don’t remember my religious beliefs in utero, if any, or the color of the wallpaper in my mother’s womb, as so many do. When I was under four years old I was given a wax angel candle and told that it would protect me from goblins coming down the chimney. I may have been scared by a children’s story about goblins. Or maybe goblins came down the chimney.
But at a later age I never understood how Jesus could take-away ‘sins’ or what that even meant. I thought I was stupid. I didn’t know that Jews and Muslims considered this ‘taking away sins’ a heresy. I didn’t understand what ‘sins’ were. No one explained to me that to ‘sin’ came from the Greek word “hamartia,” which was a term from archery meaning “to miss the mark.”
I remember before the age of four asking my father why the moon phases occurred. He said God did it. He knew perfectly well the correct explanation. Then I asked Father what made God? This ended my father’s astronomical explanations.
If my memory of this occurrence is not a confabulation, surprisingly I may have actually been an intelligent little boy!
In the 4th grade I learned that there was no Santa Clause and hence, that parents lied to their children. Afterwards I distinctly remember going to a children’s Golden Book encyclopedia and where it was located in the class room, in order to look up “God” to discover, by analogy with Santa Clause, whether God was also a lie that parents told their children. But disappointingly there was no listing for God in the encyclopedia.
At an older age, maybe my early teens, I decided that if there was a “God,” he would not be worse than men, i.e., primitively tribal and genocidal. I was appalled by the experience of going to church, ancient ladies singing weird songs, which fortunately only happened maybe four times in my life. I told Mother that I did not “believe in” church. She cried.
Jacobsen: What is music?
May: Music is a tonal analog of the emotions, Thinking about Music, an Introduction to the Philosophy of Music by Rowell. I think Rowell nailed it.
Jacobsen: What is sacred?
May: Something is sacred if it brings you to a higher part of yourself.
Jacobsen: What differentiates music from, simply speaking, sacred music?
May: If music inspires you to shoot your brothers or the neighborhood cop on his beat, then it may be at a different level than say, e.g., J.S. Bach or Gregorian chants.
I like to contemplate as a koan Mick Jagger and The Rolling Stones doing Gregorian chants or “Push it” by Salt and Pepper, done very slowly with the lyrics translated into Latin https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vCadcBR95oU .
Jacobsen: If we had a better grasp of mathematics, logic, and reason, would we be able to enjoy music better? Is there an innate sensibility of mathematics, logic, and reason, behind the harmonizing beatifications of the ear in ‘good’ music?
May: I don’t think so. — ‘”the enormous usefulness of mathematics in the natural sciences is something bordering on the mysterious and there is no rational explanation for it.” — Eugene Wigner
Try natural selection! “The logic of our brains is the logic of the universe.” — Sir Fred Hoyle
https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/The_Unreasonable_Effectiveness_of_Mathematics_in_the_Natural_Sciences
But what Wigner has called the “unreasonable effectiveness of mathematics,” as applied to understanding physical reality, may in my view have a corresponding principle, “the unreasonable effectiveness of music,” as applied to human brain physiology in achieving altered states of consciousness.
Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, would this mean an objective ability to grasp something akin to the Good via pitch, frequency, tone, and timbre, and higher harmonics, and the talent to reason, ratiocinate, and mathematicize?
May: I don’t know. This is beyond me. Perceiving the Good certainly is dependent upon one’s state of consciousness, which may be altered by music, drugs, dance, massage, prayer and meditation.
Jacobsen: What would Pythagoras say in a pithy way?
May: “Music is the geometry of the soul.”— May-Tzu
[End Part 9 of Interview]
Abstract
Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) is a Member of the Mega Society based on a qualifying score on the Mega Test (before 1995) prior to the compromise of the Mega Test and Co-Editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. In self-description, May states: “Not even forgotten in the cosmic microwave background (CMB), I’m an Amish yuppie, born near the rarified regions of Laputa, then and often, above suburban Boston. I’ve done occasional consulting and frequent Sisyphean shlepping. Kafka and Munch have been my therapists and allies. Occasionally I’ve strived to descend from the mists to attain the mythic orientation known as having one’s feet upon the Earth. An ailurophile and a cerebrotonic ectomorph, I write for beings which do not, and never will, exist — writings for no one. I’ve been awarded an M.A. degree, mirabile dictu, in the humanities/philosophy, and U.S. patent for a board game of possible interest to extraterrestrials. I’m a member of the Mega Society, the Omega Society and formerly of Mensa. I’m the founder of the Exa Society, the transfinite Aleph-3 Society and of the renowned Laputans Manqué. I’m a biographee in Who’s Who in the Brane World. My interests include the realization of the idea of humans as incomplete beings with the capacity to complete their own evolution by effecting a change in their being and consciousness. In a moment of presence to myself in inner silence, when I see Richard May’s non-being, ‘I’ am. You can meet me if you go to an empty room.” Some other resources include Stains Upon the Silence: something for no one, McGinnis Genealogy of Crown Point, New York: Hiram Porter McGinnis, Swines List, Solipsist Soliloquies, Board Game, Lulu blog, Memoir of a Non-Irish Non-Jew, and May-Tzu’s posterous. He discusses: “Fragments”; “Yaldabaoth is Dead”; “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”; “Event Horizon”; and “Klein-bottle Clock.”
Keywords: C.G. Jung, G.I. Gurdjieff, God, May-Tzu, Nietzsche, P.D. Ouspensky, Richard May, Rupert Sheldrake, Seth Lloyd.
Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/”MayTzu”/”Mayzi”) on “Fragments,” “Yaldabaoth is Dead,” “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!”, “Event Horizon,” and “Klein-bottle Clock”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (10)
*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Hi! Okay, we’re back-ish. “Fragments” is a complex piece, though brief. In “dances dreams of the dead,” I imagine the dead being nothing, with nothing to dance to or about, and so stillness and emptiness of the ‘howling’ void as the dreams danced about the dead. What are you really getting at there?
Richard May[1],[2]*: ROFL! This little writing epitomizes some of my misunderstandings of G.I. Gurdjieff’s cosmology.
Jacobsen: What is the “devouring moon”?
May: LOL! Gurdjieff said that we were “food for the moon.” Go figure.
Jacobsen: There was an old 20th century science fiction author who tried to speak to a universe with conscious suns and such. I forget the name off the top of my mind. However, the term “star mind” brings this to – ahem – light for me. Is this, in any way, an allusion to this author?
May: no Read some of Rupert Sheldrake’s works for discussion of possible star minds and galactic minds. Some of Dr. Sheldrake’s material has been banned from TedTalks. He must have a dangerous mind, I suppose.
Jacobsen: Do you know those videos or images of the light from the Sun reflecting less off the Moon as the Moon becomes darker, as the line of light recedes from its surface? The star mind devouring the Orphean strains of the devouring moon with the soul-eyed shadows reminds me of these. The “Endless sun” cycles over billions of years off the surface of the moonscape, the ‘food.’ Throw me a bone because I’m howling at the Moon!
May: The “Endless sun” is a reference to ‘God’ at one of the levels physicality in the cosmos and levels of symbolism. The sun has symbolized God in virtually every culture, as psychologist C.G. Jung has noted. This surreal little writing is based up my misunderstanding of the cosmology of G. I. Gurdjieff. Gurdjieff taught that what he meant literally was taken as an allegory and what he taught as allegory was taken literally. It gets a bit confusing. Some of what he taught is preposterous, e.g., that the moon is going to become another sun. But maybe preposterous was sometimes the point. E.g., “Believe nothing not even yourself.” — G.I. Gurdjieff
Jacobsen: Why title this “Fragments”?
May: The original title of P. D. Ouspensky’s book In Search for the Miraculous was Fragments of an Unknown Teaching. The publisher preferred the former. Ouspensky, Gurdjieff’s foremost pupil, thought that he did not posses the complete teaching and/or that it was not entirely extant and the teaching was at least to him partially unknown. I repeat, he was Gurdjieff’s foremost pupil.
Jacobsen: “Yaldabaoth is Dead” opens with the line of perpetual unknowability of our ‘inner’ and ‘outer.’ Any statements on the great unknown inner and outer worlds?
May: This little writing is my rendering of the Lord’s Prayer. It begins, perhaps somewhat unconventionally, with Nietzsche’s “God is dead,” using one of the Gnostic names for the God of the Bible, i.e., the Demiurge, a sort of unintelligent, blundering Cosmic Builder.
Jacobsen: Also, “Our Unknown” is not “our unknown,” which seems more accurate. It’s a subtle and important distinction on “Yaldabaoth is Dead.” What is the “Unnameable” set apart from here? (Where is “here,” Scott? I don’t know anymore; I know nothing.)
May: “Our Unknown” is ‘God.’ “The Unnameable” is ‘God’. I think “set apart” is the original meaning of “sacred” in Hebrew.
Jacobsen: “Presence” is, as the others, capitalized, while in the context of “here and now.” The now seems like an interesting one to me. You’re, obviously, a scientifically literate and intelligent person and utilize scientific know-how in the context of poetic statements, where space and time are space-time. “Presence” is “here and now,” in the here-now, ya dig? Are you consciously making these distinctions, or is this more automated based on the rich background in reading about modern physics?
May: Presence is capitalized at the beginning of an almost sentence. I’m not conscious of what is done by me consciously and what unconsciously. I’m rather ignorant of modern physics.
Jacobsen: “As above, so below” is a famous statement, and the “doing” in lower and higher reflects this for me. Do you see a relation between these ideas in “Yaldabaoth is Dead” and the phrase from Hermeticism?
May: Yes, sure, a relationship, but also a rendering of “on Earth as it is in Heaven.”
Jacobsen: What is “transubstantial food”? Is it the insubstantial Catholic form of “transubstantial”?
May: Oh, I don’t know, maybe impressions of something higher than my own illusory-ego identity. I don’t know enough about Catholic dogmas to answer.
Jacobsen: Forgiveness is important. What’s been an important moment of forgiveness in life for you?
May: I forgive you for asking these questions. I forgive entropy and gravitation, for existing. I forgive ‘God’ for sinning against me and my family. I forgive Mother and Father for being f*cked-up human beings, like everyone else. — But can I forgive myself for not forgiving?
Jacobsen: I love the last two lines, quoting you:
And led not into distraction,
but delivered from sleep.
Can you forgive me for being distractible and falling asleep before sending more questions to you, until the next morning, please?
May: Yes, certainly, I can. But you will probably burn in the Hell of the Loving Father for Eternity or at least for the duration of one commercial break.
Jacobsen: “Don’t Take Your Life Personally. It’s Not About You!” has a title almost as long as the content. Bravo! It speaks, to me, to the limits of self-knowledge from recollection, reflections, even contemplative practices. We’re a mystery to ourselves, ultimately. Why does one’s existence preclude publicity of knowledge to oneself and the conveyance of this to others?
May: I first wrote this as irony. What can you take personally, if not your life? Then I realized that it also perfectly embodied certain esoteric ideas; We are food in a cosmic food chain. We may have a purpose in the cosmos that transcends our illusory ego-identity.
Jacobsen: “Event Horizon” plays with terms referencing past and present, and future, and the references to the past and the future. We hope for the future. Yet, the hopes are placed in the past in it. We have a present, “Now,” and it’s placed “too far in the future.” Time’s an illusion, a persistent one; I have it on good authority. Anyhow, is this your physics seeping into the poetry once more, my friend?
May: MIT physicist Seth Loyd thinks that retro-causality from the future to the present can occur and that the past can be changed, I think. But we are rarely present here and now. Now is an imagined future state, ironically. But there is also sarcasm. As ordinarily conceived, we cannot have hope for the past. So how can we have hope for the present? … So this combines ‘physics’, esotericism, and sarcasm. It’s very straight forward.
But actually Event Horizon is the brand name of a delicious high gravity beer!
Jacobsen: “Klein-bottle Clock” is surrealistic, certainly. How many cups of coffee can you make with these eternity-measuring coffee spoons in a tablespoon, even a teaspoon?
May: This writing was inspired by a certain illustrious member of the higher-IQ community who was among those interviewed by a certain well-known publication. When asked what he was doing, he said among other things that he was building an “inside-out clock.”
Doubtless because I have a warped, non-Euclidean mind, this struck me as ridiculous. So as not to be outdone I wrote “Klein-bottle Clock.” The outside of such a clock would be identical with its inside!
Jacobsen: You quote Arthur Schopenhauer in relation to time as one’s life-time and eternity as one’s immortality, which presumes an embedded identity in eternity living out ‘simultaneously’ in the time of one’s life. So, how many coffee cups can you get from this?
May: Not even one at Starbucks.
Jacobsen: How is identity embedded in eternality and terminality?
May: Beats me! Ordinary psychology explains at least to a degree the the origin of our illusory egoic identities. The psychology of Buddhist philosophy and that of G.I. Gurdjieff also deal with this. I doubt that what we regard as our identity is preserved eternally.
Jacobsen: What kind of infinity is eternity?
May: No kind. Eternity is not an infinity, it is not infinite time. Eternity is the condition of being outside of time, e.g., the present moment.
Jacobsen: What kind of finite is a lifetime?
May: The Buddha compare a human lifetime to the duration of a flash of lightening.
Jacobsen: Have you had any difficulties measuring out a mornings cup o’ joe in a lifetime measurement using an eternal coffee spoon? Or is the embedment making it easy to just, you know, reduce the quantification of the grounds in the eternal coffee spoon?
May: Sorry, I don’t understand the question.
[End Part 10 of Interview]
Abstract
Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) is a Member of the Mega Society based on a qualifying score on the Mega Test (before 1995) prior to the compromise of the Mega Test and Co-Editor of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society. In self-description, May states: “Not even forgotten in the cosmic microwave background (CMB), I’m an Amish yuppie, born near the rarified regions of Laputa, then and often, above suburban Boston. I’ve done occasional consulting and frequent Sisyphean shlepping. Kafka and Munch have been my therapists and allies. Occasionally I’ve strived to descend from the mists to attain the mythic orientation known as having one’s feet upon the Earth. An ailurophile and a cerebrotonic ectomorph, I write for beings which do not, and never will, exist — writings for no one. I’ve been awarded an M.A. degree, mirabile dictu, in the humanities/philosophy, and U.S. patent for a board game of possible interest to extraterrestrials. I’m a member of the Mega Society, the Omega Society and formerly of Mensa. I’m the founder of the Exa Society, the transfinite Aleph-3 Society and of the renowned Laputans Manqué. I’m a biographee in Who’s Who in the Brane World. My interests include the realization of the idea of humans as incomplete beings with the capacity to complete their own evolution by effecting a change in their being and consciousness. In a moment of presence to myself in inner silence, when I see Richard May’s non-being, ‘I’ am. You can meet me if you go to an empty room.” Some other resources include Stains Upon the Silence: something for no one, McGinnis Genealogy of Crown Point, New York: Hiram Porter McGinnis, Swines List, Solipsist Soliloquies, Board Game, Lulu blog, Memoir of a Non-Irish Non-Jew, and May-Tzu’s posterous. He discusses: “More and Less Than Stardust”; “Sound of Morning Light”; and “Braille Shadows.”
Keywords: Alan Watts, Buddha nature, Erwin Schroedinger, Jacob Needleman, Katha Upanishad, Krishnamurti, Max Planck, May-Tzu, Richard May, The Beatles.
Conversation with Richard May (“May-Tzu”/“MayTzu”/“Mayzi”) on “More and Less Than Stardust,” “Sound of Morning Light,” and “Braille Shadows”: Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society” (11)
*Please see the references, footnotes, and citations, after the interview, respectively.*
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: “More and Less Than Stardust” makes the distinction between subject and object, internal external. Ultimately, are these distinctions valid? In that, what makes a subject “a subject” and an object “an object,” and “a subject” different from “an object”?
Richard May[1],[2]*: No, these distinctions are not ultimately real, the ‘mystics’ and some scientists agree. This was one of my points.
“Science cannot solve the ultimate mystery of nature… because… we ourselves are part of nature and therefore part of the mystery that we are trying to solve.” — Nobel laureate Max Planck
Jacobsen: If subjectivities are in the universe, is the universe awake, in, at least, this micro-localized aspect of its existence? If so, can we state unequivocally that the universe has self-awarenesses?
May: We are part of the universe. All intelligent sentient beings anywhere are also parts of the universe. AI units will be or are parts of the universe. If we have at least some very incomplete awareness of the universe, including ourselves, then this would seem to be the universe observing itself. The universe is awake only when little sentient beings within it are awake, unless stars and galaxies also have conscious minds, which they may. Rupert Sheldrake has written about this possibility. — Macro Buddhas and nano Buddhas, mostly sleeping Buddhas.
Jacobsen: What makes some “states of ‘consciousness’” “useful”?
May: Survival of the organism until reproduction is useful from the perspective of evolutionary natural selection. After generating progeny we are food for worms. We could potentially have other higher purposes also, I suppose.
Jacobsen: If subjectivities are in the universe, is the universe awake, in, at least, this micro-localized aspect of its existence? If so, can we state unequivocally that the universe has self-awarenesses? As “we are the universe observing itself,” is it possible to expand the idea of self-awarenesses or consciousnesses in the universe to the concept of self-awareness or consciousness of the universe? Italics make things look serious and impactful, so italics!
May: Consciousness with knowledge and understanding of the universe is empirical science. Consciousness of the universe is empirical science, I think. Self-awareness in the universe is an emergent phenomenon corresponding to a certain level of neurological development of an organism. I don’t know about self-awareness or consciousness of the universe. Maybe … Perhaps the universe can achieve ‘enlightenment’ or ‘awakening’ of its consciousness, if any. I don’t know.
Jacobsen: What are the various levels of “the One”in its withins and withouts?
May: I do wish that I knew!
Jacobsen: How is “‘our’” separate experience a delusion in this light?
May: “Consciousness is a singular for which there is no plural.” — Erwin Schroedinger. Maybe think of quantum entanglement of ‘particles’ and the Katha Upanishad.
Jacobsen: Why use the phrase of Alan Watts, “skin encapsulated egos,” as the descriptive phrase for this?
May: I didn’t know that this was an Alan Watts phrase. I found it somewhere and liked it, so I used it.
Jacobsen: How is the universe a hologram?
May: The universe may not be a hologram. This was speculative; a possibility.
Jacobsen: How is this hologrammatic universe embedded in human consciousness too (and vice versa)?
May: The universe may not be holographic. This was speculative.
Jacobsen: Are there any other binaries to relate the ideas presented with station and state, being and knowledge, and “makam” and “hal”?
May: I don’t know. I didn’t think of any other binary pairs. (Wave is to Particle) as (Knowledge is to Being)?
Jacobsen: Quoting Krishnamurti, are there any true distinctions between observer and observed?
May: In the case of certain politicians a “rectal-cranial inversion” could give the phrase an additional layer of meaning, I suppose.
Jacobsen: “Sound of Morning Light” is funny. A spring robin, it’s supposed to dance that darned haiku to a 5-7-5 beat, but missed the haiku beat. What was the robin thinking? How did it miss it?
May: The robin was probably thinking about the problem of unifying quantum gravity with general relativity or the cute girl robin next door. Hard to say.
Jacobsen: “Braille Shadows” is terse. A satori moment for a buddha. Zen riddles riddle the landscape. Does morning dew scattering light onto falling petals have the buddha nature?
May: Dew, light and flower petals have the Buddha nature; My writings, as paper and ink, have the Buddha nature and a piece of dung has the Buddha nature.
Jacobsen: There’s some content at the end of the book for No One with this Jacobsen fellow. Who the hell is the damned stupid, annoying, petulant, inconsistent, idiot nobody asking so many gosh dang questions? I heard he has cooties.
“I am he as you are he as you are me
And we are all together.” — The Beatles
“The question ‘Who am I’ and the question ‘What is God?’ are the same question.” — Jacob Needleman.
If I don’t know who or what I am, how can I know who or what another person is?
Maybe we are both just food in a cosmic food chain.
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/06/04
The Value of Sand: Values are lines drawn deep into sand; if so, what is sand, as such?
See “Animate”.
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Luca Fiorani and Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/04
Abstract
Luca Fiorani is the first member of RealIQ Society by Ivan Ivec with an estimated IQ of 181.2 (σ15) combining 9 tests, where he studies and considers himself a philosopher in nuce. He discusses: some of the prominent family stories being told over time; an extended self; the family background; experience with peers and schoolmates; some professional certifications; the purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence; the extreme reactions to and treatment of geniuses; the greatest geniuses in history; a genius from a profoundly intelligent person; profound intelligence necessary for genius; some work experiences and jobs; job path; the gifted and geniuses; philosophy, theology, and religion; science; some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations); the range of the scores; ethical philosophy; social philosophy; economic philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; worldview-encompassing philosophical system; meaning in life; meaning; an afterlife; the mystery and transience of life; and love.
Keywords: genius, intelligence, IQ, life, love, Luca Fiorani, meaning, philosophy.
Conversation with Luca Fiorani on World War II, Geniuses, Philosophies, Meaning, Life, and Love: First Member, RealIQ Society (1)
*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?
Luca Fiorani[1],[2]*: Back to the origins! I like this approach, it’s interesting. In the past, in its remotest aspects or areas, is perhaps hidden more truth than we usually believe. Family stories? My maternal grandfather was a key-figure. He was one of the Partigiani, The Italian resistance movement which fought against Fascism and Nazism during World War II. His stories were about: bravery, fortitude, daring. ‘Giving up is not an option’ – this maxim summarizes almost everything.
Jacobsen: Have these stories helped provide a sense of an extended self or a sense of the family legacy?
Fiorani: Yes, indeed. Cognition of our roots, in my perspective, fortifies our Self – our own perception of inner phenomena and the connection with a milieu; awareness invariably leads to significance.
Jacobsen: What was the family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?
Fiorani: My family lived and lives in Tuscany and Liguria. Its cultural level – firstly in terms of education – has always been medium-high, all things considered. My family traditionally embraces Catholicism, nevertheless not in a too rigid way.
Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and an adolescent?
Fiorani: I was a loner, as a child and as an adolescent. But I had social skills, and it wasn’t hard for me to make friends. But this happened sporadically. I had tendency for becoming estranged, I cut myself off reality often. I have never been grouchy, but simply I preferred my mind and its simulations to people.
Jacobsen: What have been some professional certifications, qualifications, and trainings earned by you?
Fiorani: I’m still studying. I’m still trying to get the proper credentials for achieving something non-negligible in my eventual professional life.
Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?
Fiorani: Two goals: cognitive assessment and cognitive entertainment. Generally speaking, the first one is the most noble. For instance, a multi-componential analysis of cognitive abilities (as in WISC-IV and V for children, and WAIS-IV for adults) is surely relevant, from a diagnostic point of view as well. It’s not all about ‘IQ’ and a single number there, but also pointing out strengths and weaknesses of the individual. If you detect mental retardation or, conversely, giftedness you may proceed accordingly. The examples made are rather simplistic. I can’t expatiate too much withal.
The ‘cognitive assessment purpose’ can be pursued also through high range IQ tests, if their quality is acceptable. A single result won’t suffice. In order to get a reliable estimate of your IQ you need to take several tests. HRTs are usually untimed, but they can also be timed. The most common and broad fields of high range testing are: verbal, spatial, numerical and mixed/composite. In order to know your IQ, you’ll need a wide spectrum of data. If your aim is exactitude, you’ll need attention to details (stats of the test, norming method, etc.) as well.
It’s not uncommon, though, that one may try HRTs as a hobby or something similar. That’s the cognitive entertainment. You take them ‘for fun’, for the pleasure of solving challenging puzzles, the eureka moment of decoding a riddle, and so on. It’s not unusual that a competitive attitude takes place. If the competitive aspect is not pervasive is fine. If HRTs become an addiction and your mindset is too competitive, they should be avoided, since they lose their meaning and spirit, and the situation may become unhealthy. I speak according to my own experience.
Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?
Fiorani: As perceived by other people, since I was a boy, 7 years old. A teacher of mine told me: “You already are a thinker. You think in a superior way. More deeply, more comprehensively. You just think in a different manner”.
As discovered by IQ tests and psychometric tools, in 2015. I was 23 years old.
Jacobsen: When you think of the ways in which the geniuses of the past have either been mocked, vilified, and condemned if not killed, or praised, flattered, platformed, and revered, what seems like the reason for the extreme reactions to and treatment of geniuses? Many alive today seem camera shy – many, not all.
Fiorani: I suppose that the historical and socio-cultural contexts are crucial here. Geniuses may incarnate multiple facets of human being, and typically exaggerated. You can idolize or reject; it’s our nature. Divinizing or demonizing what we can’t comprehend fully. The most entrenched vision of things is dualistic. View of existence can become Manichean, then. Not necessarily. Seldom we give away this Weltanschauung, though; it’s conscious but unconscious too, it’s a-rational and pre-rational mostly, then it’s rationalized.
Geniuses can go against a status quo, a paradigm, etc., so they might become a threat. Au contraire, sometimes they’re the inspiration needed for a revolution. Treatment of geniuses depends on the current predominant necessities, from epoch to epoch.
The ones alive today perhaps are mainly camera shy ’cause are against this liquid society… of surface, appearance, facade, emptiness, moral and conceptual non-substantiality… La société du spectacle, a society of exhibitionism, and then Homo vacuus.
Jacobsen: Who seem like the greatest geniuses in history to you?
Fiorani: The list is too long, to be honest with you. Plato, Dante Alighieri, Leonardo da Vinci, Gottfried Leibniz, Werner Heisenberg, Jacques Lacan, Kurt Gödel: these are good examples.
Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?
Fiorani: Briefly, the actualization of a potential. This actualization becomes an offer to mankind. A genius creates – originality, innovation, uniqueness: trademark of an actual genius. Geniuses are pioneers and precursors, and not epigones. Geniuses change how we view things.
Jacobsen: Is profound intelligence necessary for genius?
Fiorani: Almost always, yes.
Jacobsen: What have been some work experiences and jobs held by you?
Fiorani: None. (see above)
Jacobsen: Why pursue this particular job path?
Fiorani: I cannot reply for self-evident reasons.
Jacobsen: What are some of the more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses? Those myths that pervade the cultures of the world. What are those myths? What truths dispel them?
Fiorani: About high IQ individuals there are indeed myths to debunk. One of these, to me, is the idea of the high IQ person as cold, impassive, with scarce inclination for emotions overall. That’s simply a hoax. People tend to simplify things, categorizing a priori and labelling – it’s easier: less effort, less stress.
Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?
Fiorani: Religion is one of the fundamental ways through which humanity expresses itself: the relevance of religions – as a trans-cultural and omnipresent phenomenon – is unquestionable: history, sociology and anthropology demonstrates the fact abundantly.
About God. I quote an apophthegm which condenses a lot: καλούμενός τε κἄκλητος θεὸς παρέσται [Greek]/vocatus atque non vocatus Deus aderit [Latin]… Which in English is: “Bidden or not bidden, God shall be present”.
Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?
Fiorani: The role of science is essential and irrevocable. Science can be a perfect antidote to any absolutism and any relativism, simultaneously – both the instances lead to a dead-end street, from an epistemological and gnoseological perspective, but also from an existentialist point of view.
Jacobsen: What have been some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations) for you?
Fiorani: I scored > 170 σ15 on normed high range IQ tests designed by: Theodosis Prousalis, Xavier Jouve, Ron Hoeflin, Jonathan Wai, James Dorsey, Iakovos Koukas, Nick Soulios. And also others.
Jacobsen: What is the range of the scores for you? The scores earned on alternative intelligence tests tend to produce a wide smattering of data points rather than clusters, typically.
Fiorani: I consistently score above 160 σ15 (if my effort is optimal); rare exceptions. I also have a couple of 180+ σ15. My strongest area is the verbal one but I can consider myself a versatile test-taker, having scored 165+ σ15 in all main fields of high range testing (verbal, numerical, spatial, mixed; untimed and also timed).
Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?
Fiorani: Kantianism.
Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?
Fiorani: Rousseauism.
Jacobsen: What economic philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?
Fiorani: Liberalism.
Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?
Fiorani: notably cf. A Theory of Justice (John Rawls, 1971).
Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes some sense to you, even the most workable sense to you?
Fiorani: Spinozism. »Philosophieren ist Spinozieren«, as Hegel unerringly said.
Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?
Fiorani: Nietzscheanism.
Jacobsen: What provides meaning in life for you?
Fiorani: Ich und Du relationship. To put it simply, intersubjectivity. The others. (anti-solipsistic view)
Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?
Fiorani: Externally and internally derived, in synchrony.
Jacobsen: Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, why, and what form? If not, why not?
Fiorani: About this, ἐποχή (epoche), id est ‘suspension of judgment’, is my best answer.
Jacobsen: What do you make of the mystery and transience of life?
Fiorani: Life always presents what Carl Gustav Jung called numinosum, ineffable sacred mystery.
Life’s impermanence enriches things, not the opposite. But we, by nature, are afraid of death and the end of things. The process of wisdom to think and sense otherwise is very slow, and arguably inexhaustible.
Jacobsen: What is love to you?
Fiorani: The most marvellous sentiment that we have.
[End of Part 1 of Interview.]
Abstract
Luca Fiorani is the first member of RealIQ Society by Ivan Ivec with an estimated IQ of 181.2 (σ15) combining 9 tests, where he studies and considers himself a philosopher in nuce. He discusses: a family history in the Partigiani; the triplet values; Roman Catholicism; the reason for being a loner; cut off social reality; studying; the “proper credentials for achieving something non-negligible”; a life work; regrets; discovery and commentary by other people at 7-years-old; the main reasons for the “society of exhibitionism”; Plato; Dante Alighieri; Leonardo da Vinci; Gottfried Liebnitz; Werner Heisenberg; Jacques Lacan; Kurt Gödel; some exceptions to the principle of profound intelligence required for genius; work, love, friendship; the correct properties of God; science changing the views of consciousness; personal perspectives on consciousness and the soul; freedom of the will and human nature; test constructors; Kantianism; Rousseauism; economic liberalism; Rawlsian ethics; Spinozan metaphysics; Nietzscheanism; reject solipsism; conscious agents, operators; the numinosum; and love.
Keywords: consciousness, love, Luca Fiorani, meaning, Partigiani, philosophers, soul, virtues.
Conversation with Luca Fiorani on the Partigiani, Virtues, Love, Meaning, Philosophers and Geniuses of Note, and Consciousness and the Soul: First Member, RealIQ Society (2)
*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citation style listing after the interview.*
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: As an irregular army force, the Partigiani fighting against both Fascism and Nazism seems most intriguing to me. These stories of “bravery, fortitude, daring,” while ‘giving up is not an option,’ as a maxim, seems to imbue a family narrative with nobility in sentiment. Is this a sensibility found throughout many Italian families with a family history in the Partigiani?
Luca Fiorani[1],[2]*: Yes, I guess. Without Resistance there is no Liberation and without Liberation there’s no Liberty. Freedom is something valuable. Their sacrifice won’t be forgotten. Our current battles – for rights, against ideological systems, etc. – are mainly possible because of their battle, less metaphorical but even more representative. They’re an emblem.
Jacobsen: What are some aspects of personal life in which you have been able to fulfill the maxim and the triplet values of “bravery, fortitude, [and] daring”?
Fiorani: In the context of my psychological growth. I had demons to face and I fought them without quitting. This granted me the chance of living a more than acceptable life, I’d say satisfying – the only flaw/defect remains the lavorative scope: but I’m less than 30, nothing is lost, I still have opportunities, and I intend to take them.
Jacobsen: What does Roman Catholicism mean to a family living in Tuscany and Liguria while ‘embracing Catholicism in a not too rigid way’?
Fiorani: Roman Catholicism is rule, routine, standard for most families in Italy. The promulgated values are important and elevated. You can follow most of them even without being assiduously practicing, in my humble opinion: in fact, this very thing happens repeatedly, with no clamor.
Jacobsen: What was the reason for being a loner “as a child and as an adolescent”?
Fiorani: I don’t possess all the answers, things just happen, several factors I suppose – i.e. my nature/temperament/personality and others’ cognitive and emotive maturity or lack of it, it depends. Not everything is easily classifiable.
Jacobsen: It seems as if a tendency to only pursue friendships if they fell into your lap rather than heading out into the world to find them, consciously. So, why cut off social reality and from “reality often”?
Fiorani: Maybe I suffered more than I like to admit. Escapism is a response to a stimulus.
Jacobsen: What are you studying now?
Fiorani: Philosophy. I’m about to complete the full cycle of studies. I shall obtain my doctor’s degree within July 2021, I’m preparing my graduation thesis. I am a good student, being A+ my average grade at university. I’ve also obtained full marks with honors in high school, appearing in Albo Nazionale delle Eccellenze [National Excellence Honours Roll] as well.
Jacobsen: What comprises the “proper credentials for achieving something non-negligible” in work?
Fiorani: Master’s degree, for instance. Plus, right motivation and befitting forma mentis. I’ll reach a stability, I’m pretty confident about that.
Jacobsen: Do you have a life work, as in a pursuit or passion intended for life?
Fiorani: Certainly.
Jacobsen: Any regrets on the side of competitive aspect with addiction and competition as the mindset?
Fiorani: Yes, I do have regrets. Anancasm is not fine.
Jacobsen: How did this discovery and commentary by other people at 7-years-old change the orientation to education? As peers, based on prior commentary, they seemed a distant non-concern while in rapture with your own thoughts.
Fiorani: The orientation to education… I’ve progressively become aware of my talent in various fields, almost everything which involved theoretical conceptualizing and abstract reasoning – as for my manual dexterity, my skills were almost null then, and are very poor now. Also, my drawing ability is close to zero. It’s a soft sub-kind of dysgraphia – my handwriting, for example, is something horrible.
Back to the point, people considered me a brainiac but rarely in its pejorative meaning, I’ve never been a eager beaver vel similia, and, as for teaching programmes, nothing changed – giftedness is an almost ignored issue in Italy, which implies de facto not taking into account gifted children and possible specific educational programmes. But I wasn’t an underachiever, and I fought boredom in many ways – being also a precocious autodidact.
Jacobsen: What seem like the main reasons for the “society of exhibitionism,” of the creation of Homo vacuus, of ‘the society of spectacle’?
Fiorani: I cannot clarify with abundance of details. I may become encyclopedic, pedantic, verbose. I suggest to read works of Guy Debord, Zygmunt Bauman, Slavoj Žižek, Peter Sloterdijk.
Jacobsen: Looking at the examples, it raises some straightforward questions with Plato, Dante Alighieri, Leonardo da Vinci, Gottfried Leibniz, Werner Heisenberg, Jacques Lacan, and Kurt Gödel. What makes Plato a good example of a genius?
Fiorani: Plato has been the first pedagogue of the Western world. He was a formidable writer – his Dialogues are literary masterpieces –, his mind was vast. He conceived so many thoughts and ideas (cf. the famous quote of Alfred North Whitehead on Western philosophy: “a series of footnotes to Plato”, in Process and Reality). Philosophy was already alive and strong – Heraclitus, Parmenides –, but Plato let it shine and rise and expand, both following and overcoming his master Socrates. The latter is very present till the end, though. Not a coincidence that Leo Strauss spoke about zetetic skepticism describing the Socratic attitude of Plato: doubt and research as keystones.
Jacobsen: What makes Dante Alighieri a good example of a genius?
Fiorani: If one has familiarity with the Divine Comedy, it becomes truistic. His poetry is unmatched. Each single verse – of the 14233 of which his masterpiece consists – is not trivial nor easy. Consider as well how much theology was in his work. Dante was able to express things in a way that has never been equaled, I’d say. Take the following lines as a golden example:
«Fede è sustanza di cose sperate
e argomento de le non parventi,
e questa pare a me sua quiditate»
(Paradise, XXIV, 64-66)
faith is the substance of the things we hope for
and is the evidence of things not seen;
and this I take to be its quiddity
I consider the beauty and depth so amazing that I shall leave to the reader other remarks.
Jacobsen: What makes Leonardo da Vinci a good example of a genius?
Fiorani: He is the most classic and complete example of Homo universalis. He was impressively versatile, the novelty of his ideas is now well-known. His skills were various and immense and his contributions to mankind remarkable.
Jacobsen: What makes Gottfried Liebnitz a good example of a genius?
Fiorani: Another polymath… The mind of Leibniz is similar to The Library of Babel of Jorge Luis Borges. I’d say then, the total mind. High standing logician [cf. identity of indiscernibles, etc.], mathematician [cf. differential and integral calculus and refinement of binary system as notable examples], elegant and ingenious philosopher [cf. Monadology, etc.], prolific inventor [cf. stepped drum and other mechanical calculators]. Some of his intuitions were confirmed more than two centuries after his time. He wrote essays in six languages. His erudition too was something nearly unbelievable.
Jacobsen: What makes Werner Heisenberg a good example of a genius?
Fiorani: He won the Nobel prize in 1932 “for the creation of quantum mechanics”. He really has been a pioneer and key figure in physics. This (r)evolution hasn’t perhaps the same vastness of the ones by Isaac Newton and Albert Einstein, but we’re not that far.
Jacobsen: What makes Jacques Lacan a good example of a genius?
Fiorani: Lacan just brought psychoanalysis to another level. He has been able to re-read and re-comprehend entirely Sigmund Freud, his mentor. His studies on the language are sublime. He reaches a rate of elaborateness so high that he is often considered obscure or even indecipherable. Difficulty is there, I mean, that’s unquestionable, but his complexity is also epiphany, brainwave and so on. He appears unintelligible, but as well he enlights us about so many phenomena, that I’m inclined to forgive his excess of sophistication.
Jacobsen: What makes Kurt Gödel a good example of a genius?
Fiorani: I believe that he’s the greatest logician ever lived. I’m not excluding Aristoteles and Gottlob Frege, nor Ludwig Wittgenstein, Alfred Tarski, Saul Kripke and Alan Turing, beware! Gödel’s incompleteness theorems represent a revolution tout court. How we view things – our approach to everything we know, for instance.
The famous Pontius Pilate’s question (cf. John 18:38), Τί ἐστιν ἀλήθεια; [Greek]/Quid est veritas? [Latin]/What is truth? becomes even more difficult or challenging and intriguing after Gödel.
Jacobsen: What are some exceptions to the principle of profound intelligence required for genius?
Fiorani: In some artistic fields it may happen that one brings a revolution (sort of), without being profoundly intelligent. So, at least to a certain extent this person is genius, in a way. To some degree, yes. Andy Warhol seems fitting.
Jacobsen: In a direct sense, you have spent a significant amount of time in intellectual and alternative test-taking pursuits. Why the obsessions with a reduction in the practical concerns for the manner of an ordinary life, e.g., work, love, friendship, and the like?
Fiorani: Assuming that I haven’t spent time for things like love and friendship, for example, is incorrect. I devoted time also to important things.
Jacobsen: What seem like the correct properties of God, “bidden or not bidden”?
Fiorani: The correct properties? Bonum-Verum-Unum-Pulchrum? Yes, I guess so…
Jacobsen: How is science changing the views of consciousness, the soul, and human nature, even the nature of nature? How do these differ from the past philosophical arguments? How do these not differ from the past philosophical arguments?
Fiorani: Materialistic arguments are winning – in the field of philosophy of mind, which includes consciousness & soul. But that’s not a law, just a trend. Neurosciences are changing a bit how we view human nature, indeed. As for the nature of the nature, I guess that contemporary physics arrives. Quantum field theory, Unified field theories, Standard Model, Cosmology, Higgs boson: Wikipedia might help the reader here.
The other two questions require a very long diachronic analysis. Let’s just say I don’t reply ’cause I’m not able to.
Jacobsen: What are personal perspectives on consciousness and the soul?
Fiorani: A curious and thorough perspective about consciousness is described in: The Matrix (1999), directed by Lana Wachowski and Lilly Wachowski; and Memento (2000), directed by Cristopher Nolan. My ‘personal’ perspective is similar. About soul, I might quote The Seventh Seal (1957), directed by Ingmar Bergman; and Life of Pi (2012), directed by Ang Lee. Why do I cite movies? I don’t know, it has been genuine.
Jacobsen: Any thoughts on freedom of the will and human nature?
Fiorani: The verdict of Mahābhārata is a thought of mine: “The knot of Destiny cannot be untied; nothing in this world is the result of our acts”. Please cf. also Dark, the famous German TV series, which debuted in 2017. The ambition and complexity of its narrative deserves our praise. My hasty prose does not deserve praise, instead. Speech is silver, silence is golden – never mind.
Jacobsen: Those test constructors: Theodosis Prousalis, Xavier Jouve, Ron Hoeflin, Jonathan Wai, James Dorsey, Iakovos Koukas, Nick Soulios; they are well-known within the high-range testing community. Whose tests seem the most g-loaded tests, whether numerically, spatially, or verbally, or some admixture of them?
Fiorani: It depends. The (good) verbal ones might be the most g-loaded.
Jacobsen: Why Kantianism as the ethical philosophy?
Fiorani: Because there is less heteronomy but not less universality.
Jacobsen: Why Rousseauism as the social philosophy?
Fiorani: His Discourse on Inequality and The Social Contract are fascinating. You need to understand the impact of civil society on people – and nature of people – in order to overcome social injustices. Otherwise you won’t go anywhere. I don’t concur with everything he said, for example about private property as original source of all inequality, but I like his method – Rousseau has been a pioneer too.
Jacobsen: Why economic liberalism as the operating system for an economy?
Fiorani: Because that system is the one that, in Wirklichkeit, in factual reality, works the most. In concreto. There are better systems in abstracto, i.e. ideally. But history proves that they don’t work with a similar efficiency for a relevant amount of time.
Jacobsen: What parts of Rawlsian ethics most definitively sets forth an ethical vision of a political system?
Fiorani: Advantaging the underprivileged is one of the main ideas of Rawls. That’s the most important point. How he applies this principle is explained updating some instances of Kantian philosophy. He also uses a variant of the social contract theory (a reinterpretation of Jusnaturalism).
Jacobsen: Why does Spinozan metaphysics (philosophy) as demarcated by Hegel help thinking about things outside of the physical?
Fiorani: There’s a third level of knowledge, the first being by perception and the second by reason. The third kind is amor Dei intellectualis – you may call it intuitive. The second kind of knowledge is OK for the physical, but it’s not enough. To comprehend reality in all its aspects, metaphysics is necessary, thus the third level of knowledge. Spinoza describes these things in the most solid philosophical system I know. That’s all.
Jacobsen: Why does Nietzscheanism provide a comprehensive system of thinking for you?
Fiorani: Thus Spoke Zarathustra… Almost everything is there. A Book for All and None. Explanation concluded.
Jacobsen: Why reject solipsism as in the intersubjectivity of meaning?
Fiorani: Human being is φύσει πολιτικὸν ζῷον (by nature, social animal) and our mind is, Bereshit, in principle/in beginning, relational. Solipsism is wrong, sic et simpliciter.
Jacobsen: With meaning externally and internally derived synchronously, what does this state about a universe or an area in the universe without conscious agents, operators?
Fiorani: There is an universe/area if there are conscious agents.
Jacobsen: With the “ineffable sacred mystery” of the numinosum, what does this mean for the process of discovery of science and the human activity of organizing the findings into theoretical constructs, organizing principles?
Fiorani: Nothing. That process – consisting of: discovery, theoretical constructs, organizing them, etc. – continues and works.
Jacobsen: As love is the “most marvelous sentiment that we have,” what is a life without love?
Fiorani: Life without love would be an error.
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/05/01
*Interview conducted December 26, 2022.*
Abstract
Laura Jane “L.J.” Tidball has been the Manager of Thunderbird Show Stables, an elite hunter and jumper facility, for 20 years. She is a shareholder and contributing partner to Thunderbird Show Park, which has been voted in the top 3 equestrian show facilities in North America. For Show Park, she has been important in advising on top level equine footing, site development plans for capital improvement, and competitor scheduling for National and FEI competitions. She has been competing at the Grand Prix level since 16-years-old. Since winning the Equine Canada medal (1994) and competing on the British Columbia Young Riders’ team (1996), L.J. pursued equestrianism as a career with a fervent passion. Tidball shows multiple mounts of Thunderbird Show Stables and its clients in the hunter and the jumper rings. Through work from the pony hunters onwards with the assistance of Olympian Laura Balisky and Laura’s husband, Brent, L.J. has achieved many years of success in equitation, and the hunters and the jumpers. In 2005, she returned from a successful European tour to operate Thunderbird on a professional basis. She has been awarded the 2014 Leading BCHJA 2014 rider in the FEI World Cup West Coast League Rankings and the 2014 BCHJA Leading Trainer of the Year. In her spare time, her hobbies include baking, skiing, and snowboarding. Tidball discusses: watching great riders; when riders hit their sweet spot; the organizations; SafeSport; training; post-secondary education; supply and demand for horses; routines and breaking habits a bit; the family history in the Olympics, the Keg, McDonald’s, and Thunderbird Show Park; George Tidball and Dianne Tidball; George and Dianne’s relationship; George as a UBC dropout and top of his class are Harvard; identifying talent in show jumpers; and final thoughts.
Keywords: Brent Balisky, Dianne Tidball, Eric Lamaze, George Tidball, Kimberley Martens, L.J. Tidball, Laura Balisky, SafeSport, The Greenhorn Chronicles.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 43: L.J. Tidball on Great Riders, SafeSport, and George & Dianne Tidball (4)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Kimberley Martens in Holland noted that it, similarly, was a real pleasure to watch Eric on Hickstead. In the sense that, he had a really good feel and grace in riding. As someone with a lifetime in this sport at a high level, can you put into more precise words watching someone like Tiffany Foster, Eric Lamaze, etc., at that level?
L.J. Tidball: They make it look easy. When you watch somebody who is great at something, it doesn’t look hard. When somebody watches Eric win the gold medal. They would, probably, be sitting on their couches as somebody who has never ridden horse and say, “Oh! I could do that.” It shouldn’t look erratic or forced. If it looks like you’re hooking them in the mouth or kicking them with the spurs, to me, that is probably not the best in the world. When it is seamless and the smallest aid is making the biggest difference, that, to me, is the grace and the partnership that you see in people at the top. When it looks easy, they’re doing it right.
Jacobsen: When do most riders hit their stride? Is there a range?
Tidball: I think, it is, at least, 18. Riding is such a hard sport. There are so many levels that you have to achieve to be able to jump the 1.60m height. I think it is rare somebody under the age of 18 is doing it. We really peak, in my opinion, around 30. Then you have enough knowledge. You have jumped enough courses. You have jumped against enough people and ridden enough horses. It’s a sport of longevity. It is not a sport of aging out and then it’s done. It takes time. It is such a technical sport. You have to have done enough to know what you’re getting yourself into.
Jacobsen: There are the organizations in the country’s provinces and the national federation. How is the support from these organizations and the federation for the younger riders and for riders from Canada?
Tidball: I think our federation does the best they can with the resources they have. Canada is an odd country. There is not a lot of money to support our athletes, whether a soccer player, show jumper, or ice skater. The funding is not very high. We get the podium funding when we have medalled, which, my understanding, has run out now – from when Eric won the medal, there is a timeline. There is only so much Canada has to give back to its athletes. It is really hard. There is some B.C. athlete assistance, which you can apply for. But that got hard during Covid. I had been in Florida, I applied and they turned me down due to Covid. [Laughing] It is tough. I look at countries like the United States. There is so much more funding than for us. I don’t know if there is a way to change that or to compete with it. I don’t know the intricacies of their financial statements. So, I really can’t get into it. But do I think it would be nice if there was more funding or more support? Absolutely.
Jacobsen: About 2016/17, there was a North American cultural moment, some European, of mostly men in mostly prominent positions with the MeToo movement and the TimesUp movement. These were bringing to light conduct of men in power. There was some justice, marginal in other cases, for victims. I am aware of SafeSport and allegations that have been made to some individuals. Do you think some of these outgrowths of things happening earlier in general culture have been filtered into equestrian culture?
Tidball: I think any governing body of any sport needs to have something in place to protect athletes that are being abused and mistreated. I think that is 1,000% something that we stand up for in Canada. Our governing body, my understanding, is that they come to you. You get to provide documentation. Then it goes to a committee for review. Then it comes back. In the States, my understanding is you’re guilty until proven innocent. I think in our society if an accusation gets put there and if it is not true, it is very hard to come back from that. Nobody will want to put their child in a barn where there was a known accusation. Even though, it was proven to be false. I think what we do in Canada is appropriate. We need to protect our athletes. I think it is a very real thing. I think at this point emotions are very high surrounding it. People are new enough to it. They are talking about it. It is going to bring awareness to it. As coaches, we need to be appropriate how we coach. There are tons of courses out there that you can take to help you as a coach to know what the best ways are of training and explaining yourself.
Jacobsen: Related to that question, oddly enough, when I reached to a lot of Canadian riders, a lot of y’all are on Instagram and Facebook, which brings me back to the previous question about social media and the response about being a coach. Does this era of social media and being a little on egg shells, in terms of they’re how walking, make coaching a little more difficult at times?
Tidball: Like I said in the beginning, I think riding is fantastic sport because no matter what. When you walk into a ring with a horse, the outcome will be very obvious to you. You will either succeed or fail. If you want longevity in the sport, when you fail, you will work harder to do things right. As coaches, we have to present a set of skills to the riders. We have to give them the tools to succeed. It comes down to an individual person’s drive. When I send kids or adults into the ring and something doesn’t go right, when they come out, they will ask for more skills. Which I can help them with, so the situation can get better next time, it is not the harsh words of encouragement. Coaching has become softer. It doesn’t mean that you cannot get the same thing accomplished.
Jacobsen: Brent in some prior interviews has noted post-secondary education can be quite useful for riders and trainers in the sport. You went to the University of San Diego. Do you think, for up and coming riding, that post-secondary education is an asset?
Tidball: I think education is always an asset. We have so many opportunities nowadays with the amount ot technology out there. Anything is able to be learned if you are willing to put in a little effort into it. Post-secondary education is amazing. To me, the best part about that is it gives you a better worldview. It is very easy in our equestrian sport to get into a bubble and to live only in that bubble. You don’t realize there is anything outside of it. We spend most weeks of the year riding, showing, competing, especially when you get to that top level. My mom went to Cambodia for Just World International. She loved what they were doing. That is a charity Thunderbird Show Park is still a part of; there are so many facets of life that we, as riders, can get involved in if we try.
For my post-secondary education, I don’t know how much of that I have retained. I know the reading that I do on the weekly helps me have a better worldview and understanding of our economic situation and what is going on in the world. I think that that’s all a part if you are going to be involved in this business.
Jacobsen: A common issue – not every rider, but a number of riders – raised has been financial barriers to something as simple as a purchasing price of a horse. Mac Cone called it simple supply and demand. When a certain amount of horses are born every year, way more people want to buy, it raises the price artificially for the best horses. How is that conversation had within the community? What are some other barriers to entry at the top end of the sport?
Tidball: I think no matter what elite level sport. It is always expensive. Whether a car racing team or a sailing team, or the top tennis players in the world, I look at what their coaching and costs of travel are. It is similar no matter what you get to doing. The purchasing price of the animals adds to it, and horses definitely cost more than tennis racquets [Laughing]. I think purchasing prices of horses have gone up, and up, and up. You breed 100 horses and only 1 of them could make it to the top level. That horse becomes quite expensive. The average horse jumping 1.20m and under I think those are still within a normal range. When you are looking to purchase something at a national team level, I think those are elite athletes. When you look at how much you pay an NHL player, per year, well that’s kind of the same as buying a top horse. You are buying an NHL player or an NBA player. The purchase prices are high for sure.
Jacobsen: You are mentioning how personality-wise. You stick to your routines. Brent pushes you out of those 5%. I have noted certain superstitions or things that might be in some in the community. Do you note any superstitions?
Tidball: I have a tendency to become very superstitious. I refuse to allow myself. When I begin to think a riding jacket is lucky or a show shirt is lucky, I will force myself to wear something else. I can’t allow myself to go down that tunnel being like, “Those are my lucky socks. What happen when those get a hole in them? My day is ruined.” I definitely have the ability to do that and to go down that rabbit hole that I force myself not to.
Jacobsen: Is this common in the industry in your experience?
Tidball: Yes, absolutely, it is because we want to do well so badly. Like I said, even if something worked, I am the round ped in the round hole. If I morning flatted my horse, and getting ready for that class a certain way helped me, I will, probably, repeat the same steps. It is pretty easy to take it to the next level. “I wore those socks that day.” “I had that show jacket on.” “My necklace that my grandmother gave me.” Whatever gives you a boost, I think it is a dangerous avenue if you go down it too much and can plague you. I try not to make it a thing for me.
Jacobsen: Another aspect, I forgot to ask. We talked about the Olympic team family history, the Keg, McDonald’s, and Show Park family history. What about before that? I believe there is some information around Shanghai.
Tidball: My grandmother was born in Shanghai. She rode a little bit while she was there. It was when it was still under British rule. Her father worked for Lever Brother’s. She travelled back and forth to boarding schools in England as a young woman. During the war, my great-grandfather ended up in a prisoner of war camp in Shanghai. My grandmother, her sister, and my great-grandmother, fled and went to San Francisco. My grandmother’s sister had asthma. It got worse with it being so damp. So, they moved to the Interior and bought some land on Okanagan Lake, which turned out to one day become Sandy Beach Lodge & Resort. They had a vacation spot there, a hotel. So, that’s how that came to fruition. That’s how she met my grandfather. He was stripping the logs for the hotel.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] How did that relationship develop in the earlier days for him?
Tidball: I think my great-grandparents hated him, pretty sure. He was not highly educated. He was working for a living. He wanted to be a pro baseball player.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Tidball: He was the ultimate twinkle in his eye bad boy. She was the beautiful, perfect, English rose. They made it work. They set on their own and they accomplished a lot of things.
Jacobsen: What about their partnership was not a driver, but a major factor in being so persistent and successful?
Tidball: I think my grandfather was a dreamer. He, definitely, could always see the bigger picture or have these amazing ideas of what he wanted to do. My grandmother had dedication and work ethic. She could keep the wheels turning and make things happen. She was the woman behind the man. She made sure that he didn’t just have a dream and forget about it. She made sure the dream was to go and get it. That he pushed until he got it. I think that is what they instilled in us our whole lives too. You can have the dream, but you have to work really hard to get there. She instilled that work ethic in him.
Jacobsen: Did the mentorship and training under Milton Friedman provide a framework for him to look at economics and business mindset?
Tidball: Absolutely, he was reading journals and financials. He was so business smart. He could look at one thing and understand it, where it would take most of us weeks of reading and researching to figure out what they were talking about. He could pick it up in a snap. He was incredibly brilliant that way.
Jacobsen: He was originally a dropout at UBC. Then he became the top of his class at Harvard.
Tidball: Yes, like I said, he had my grandmother behind him and she gave him drive. She pushed him [Laughing]. He was incredibly intelligent. At Harvard, he was surrounded by teachers who inspired him to work harder. When you are inspired and respect that people that you are working for, you tend to be inspired. As a company, if you can inspire people to do their best, that’s a good thing. As a coach, I hope from the bottom of my heart that I can inspire the kids and the adults that I coach to be their best.
Jacobsen: How do you identify early talent in show jumpers?
Tidball: Athletic ability is important, but I think it is mostly about practice. The more opportunities to practice, the better that you will be. Even if there is talent, if you don’t practice, you want to get to the top. Everything is so technical nowadays. If you don’t have the skills to back it up, you won’t make it, even if you are talented.
Jacobsen: Any final feelings or thoughts in conclusion based on the conversation today?
Tidball: In talking today, it reminded me how much I love the sport that I am in. How many dreams I still have, I think that’s pretty cool. I am 45-years-old and can still have dreams as to what I want to achieve as an athlete. I remind myself how lucky I am. This is my passion and the path I chose. It is unique. It is pretty special.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, L.J.
Tidball: You’re very welcome, Scott.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2023, May 1). The Greenhorn Chronicles 43: L.J. Tidball on Great Riders, SafeSport, and George & Dianne Tidball (4). In-Sight Publishing. 11(3). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-4.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 43: L.J. Tidball on Great Riders, SafeSport, and George & Dianne Tidball (4). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 3, 2023.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2023. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 43: L.J. Tidball on Great Riders, SafeSport, and George & Dianne Tidball (4).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 3 (Spring). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-4.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 43: L.J. Tidball on Great Riders, SafeSport, and George & Dianne Tidball (4).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 3 (May 2023). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-4.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2023) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 43: L.J. Tidball on Great Riders, SafeSport, and George & Dianne Tidball (4)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(3). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-4>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2023, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 43: L.J. Tidball on Great Riders, SafeSport, and George & Dianne Tidball (4)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 3, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-4>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 43: L.J. Tidball on Great Riders, SafeSport, and George & Dianne Tidball (4).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 3, 2023, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-4.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 43: L.J. Tidball on Great Riders, SafeSport, and George & Dianne Tidball (4) [Internet]. 2023 May; 11(3). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-4
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/04/22
*Interview conducted December 26, 2022.*
Abstract
Laura Jane “L.J.” Tidball has been the Manager of Thunderbird Show Stables, an elite hunter and jumper facility, for 20 years. She is a shareholder and contributing partner to Thunderbird Show Park, which has been voted in the top 3 equestrian show facilities in North America. For Show Park, she has been important in advising on top level equine footing, site development plans for capital improvement, and competitor scheduling for National and FEI competitions. She has been competing at the Grand Prix level since 16-years-old. Since winning the Equine Canada medal (1994) and competing on the British Columbia Young Riders’ team (1996), L.J. pursued equestrianism as a career with a fervent passion. Tidball shows multiple mounts of Thunderbird Show Stables and its clients in the hunter and the jumper rings. Through work from the pony hunters onwards with the assistance of Olympian Laura Balisky and Laura’s husband, Brent, L.J. has achieved many years of success in equitation, and the hunters and the jumpers. In 2005, she returned from a successful European tour to operate Thunderbird on a professional basis. She has been awarded the 2014 Leading BCHJA 2014 rider in the FEI World Cup West Coast League Rankings and the 2014 BCHJA Leading Trainer of the Year. In her spare time, her hobbies include baking, skiing, and snowboarding. Tidball discusses: equitation and hunters; the global South and East; Major League and The Longines Global Champion Tour; injuries; and Ian Millar and Eric Lamaze.
Keywords: Brent Balisky, Canada, Eric Lamaze, equitation, FEI, Global Champions Tour, hunters, Ian Millar, Jan Tops, Keann White, L.J. Tidball, Laura Balisky, Mac Cone, Major League Show Jumping, North America.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 42: L.J. Tidball on Business, the global South and East, Injuries, and International Competition (3)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Mac Cone noted Canada focuses more on equitation and hunters for training. Why?
L.J. Tidball: Hunters and equitation are a great way to raise your skill level. Hunter courses are simpler in the sense that there’s usually only eight jumps in a course. So, if you were just beginning in our sport, hunters are a good way to begin. There’s also the judged component in the hunters and equitation. I find some people thrive on trying to achieve that perfect score. In North America, hunters and equitation have their own niche. In the equitation where you were being judged on your position, I think it teaches you how to leave out a stride in a line, how to make an inside turn, and to do it with a skill set. It is one thing that we do a little differently in North America than in Europe. Not everybody comes into our sport with a goal of jumping to metre 60, it gives a place with the hunters and the equitation for our clientele to have more than one area to accelerate. I think the hunters and equitation are a great place to improve your skills. We teach everyone from beginners all the way up to the FEI level in our barn. There’s a place for everyone and like I said it’s a business at the end of the day and we want our business to be inclusive. In Europe, there are just jumpers. I think both ways work.
Jacobsen: Western Europe and North America tend to be the most prominent on the stage, internationally. How are the global South and East, themselves, coming into the sport?
Tidball: We were in Morocco in 2019. They, Egypt, Saudi Arabia & UAE have all been excelling on the show jumping scene in recent years. The Longines Global Champion Tour, has added to the ability of more people to get into the FEI divisions, in Europe, it is very hard to get into any FEI show, unless, you have enough ranking points. The Longines Global Champion Tour and the Major League Show Jumping, as well, allows people to get onto a team and to get to the 5* shows, get those ranking points, and have that practice. Without the ability to compete at that high level, it is hard to excel at the world stage. The creation of those tours supports the Southern, Eastern, and European and North American communities.
Jacobsen: Who brought Major League and The Longines Global Champion Tourinto the system?
Tidball: Major League Show Jumping was Keean White, who is a Canadian. He rode on the Canadian team. The Longines Global Champion Tour was founded by Jan Tops. With the idea in mind, giving an avenue for people who want to get to the top of the sport to have a set of shows, that is really at a high level. They are well put on. They are technical and at the high-end of the sport.
Jacobsen: Many of the top riders in Canada have had their injuries. You have had your own. What were they? How did you cope with that recovery period to get to full performance level again?
Tidball: Yes, I got flipped over on and broke something like 23 bones. My ribs, my pelvis in a few places, my collar bone, I had rods and screws through a bunch of me. It was a hard period for me. It was hard. It was hard mentally to overcome what had happened; I had a horse in Mexico. I was supposed to leave the next day to jump on a Canadian Nations Cup team. My horse was already there. I was stuck in a hospital bed. It was tough. It was a hard road for me, mentally and physically. That was in 2019. I would say just now. I am at about 90% of my strength, especially my left leg. My muscles on the inside of my left leg didn’t work for a while. I don’t think I’ll ever be as strong as I was to be perfectly honest. I have come to terms with that. I would say the hardest part is mentally allowing myself the grace to put that to the side and to not fixate on it, and to admit: I was scared. It was scary. I was in Morocco in October. I had fallen off and injured myself in April. I was competing on the Canadian team again in October. It didn’t take long to get back to where I was. Now, would I have gotten on a young horse, where something might have gone wrong at some point? Absolutely not. My horse, I trusted really well. I felt I could carry on with that. There was a triple combination in Morocco, which was the same one I got flipped over on. It was a young horse I was riding, not my experienced horse I had in Morocco. I saw double as I was riding up to it. It, obviously, was still affecting me. It took a long time and a lot of rounds, and a lot of triple combinations. A lot of those triple combinations were the ones that scared me. Until, I got to the point where it doesn’t cross my mind anymore. I am thankful for that. If fear and uncertainty top the list when walking into a show ring, you are not giving your horse, your partner, the right impression when you compete.
Jacobsen: Ian Millar set a record for the Olympics. He attended 10, which is more than any Olympian in any sport ever. What explains the longevity?
Tidball: I know Ian is incredibly dedicated to himself, what he put in his body, how he worked out, and how he trained. I think he is incredibly intelligent. He is a brilliant man. He worked things out with horses, a little like I said about Brent (Balisky). He could think outside the box. He always found a way to get things done. He brought the best out of the horses. I truly believe that he is an exceptional athlete. He inspires me all the time.
Jacobsen: Ian has stepped down. Another athlete, prominent on the international stage, stepped back, but not down: Eric Lamaze. In 2008, in Beijing, the team won silver. Individually, he won gold. What did he represent to the sport at that time? How does the Chef d’Equipe position provide a nice transition for someone having to step back [Ed. The position has changed since the time of the interview again with a further stepping back, in a sense, for Lamaze.]?
Tidball: At the time, when Eric won those medals, he was, obviously, one of the biggest figures, in my mind, of our sport. We were jumping up and down. I remember watching him win the gold medal. We stopped at the horse show. We were at the edge of our seat watching. It was an incredible day to be a Canadian show jumping fan! Knowing him, knowing how hard he worked to get to where he was, knowing his background and upbringing…
Jacobsen: …he came from nothing.
Tidball: He came from nothing. It was inspiring. He is, probably, one of the most talented riders that any of us will ever see ride a horse. He just had ability that oozed out of him. For sure, there is a level of respect for that that will last a lifetime. He had an incredible partner in Hickstead. It was the horse of a lifetime for him. He made everything work for him.
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 42: L.J. Tidball on Business, the Global South and East, Injuries, and International Competition (3). April 2023; 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-3
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2023, April 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 42: L.J. Tidball on Business, the Global South and East, Injuries, and International Competition (3). In-Sight Publishing. 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-3.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 42: L.J. Tidball on Business, the Global South and East, Injuries, and International Competition (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 2, 2023.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2023. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 42: L.J. Tidball on Business, the Global South and East, Injuries, and International Competition (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (Spring). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-3.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 42: L.J. Tidball on Business, the Global South and East, Injuries, and International Competition (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (April 2023). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-3.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2023) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 42: L.J. Tidball on Business, the Global South and East, Injuries, and International Competition (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(2). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-3>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2023, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 42: L.J. Tidball on Business, the Global South and East, Injuries, and International Competition (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 2, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-3>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 42: L.J. Tidball on Business, the Global South and East, Injuries, and International Competition (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 2, 2023, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-3.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 42: L.J. Tidball on Business, the Global South and East, Injuries, and International Competition (3) [Internet]. 2023 Apr; 11(2). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-3
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/03/15
Abstract
Luca Fiorani is a member of Ultima IQ society (cut-off: 170 σ15; founder: Ivan Ivec). Academically, he has a philosophical background. At the same time he sees himself as an independent autodidact. His main interests are: literature, arts, tennis and communication. Fiorani discusses: the Ultima Society; rethinking membership; membership or entrance; requirements in high-I.Q. societies; strict and legitimate entrance requirements; P. Cooijmans’ societies; newer thoughts on high-range testing; reconsideration of high-range testing; a member; tests of Paul’s; T. Prousalis’ tests and X. Jouve’s tests; astronomical I.Q. scores; HRTs; the 2% estimate a qualitative estimate; participation in Sidis Society; CatholIQ; common threads in personality or tests between Dorsey, Cooijmans, Prousalis, Jouve, and Kutle; the qualifying test and score for the Mega Society; a relatively non-arbitrary ceiling of 180 S.D. 15 ; wisdom; measuring the general factor or a generalized factor of intelligence with mainstream intelligence tests and HRTs; the different things measured; one’s intelligence; the single hardest test ever; a high level of problem-solving ability; Megalomania; the hardest things to realize about the high-I.Q. communities; positive developments; leaving Real IQ society; SLSE-II; IVIQ 16 Test; HRT test-makers; flourishing in a comprehensive way; intellectual and creative output of individuals in the high-I.Q. communities; type of test; a generalized intelligence up to and including I.Q. 180 S.D. 15; highly intelligent people waste their talents; the newer generation and the older generation of high-I.Q.; speed of thought; wash out the “basely egocentric behaviors”; the essential stats; the sociocultural and philosophical front; studies; the romantic life; newest intellectual project; protection of others; “The communities”; a reasonable skepticism; good uses of diverse problem solving abilities; diversity, equity, and inclusion; the generic positives and negatives; interest in media and the entertainment industry; the content of the production on Wittgenstein; a sign of a healthy culture; controversial and often polarized discussion; newer media; increasing assholery; should people put on the breaks on their mouths; silence as an indication of restraint; diversity; equity; inclusion; a minority group; the Flynn Effect; vastly positive reception from the high-I.Q. communities; a space for clarity of mind; find the time to get their outlet, their space, their place of calm; the reversal of the Flynn Effect; “Tätigkeit“ and “Therapie”; a long-term romance; the problem-solving abilities for renewable technologies; the compliments; what he say to himself 6 years ago; describing this past person; the world simply doesn’t always come in neat packages; a form of therapy; official comeback; Keith Raniere; eudaimonia; hypersensitivity; the flaws; Jouve; the self-discoveries over the last several years to bring about self-therapy; the Wittgenstein paper; this “valuable opportunity”; the idea behind True IQ; the methodology of Ivec; other people in the high-I.Q. communities; increase the number of test-takers to make the sample sizes larger for more valid tests; “The Real g Test”; the best article on high-I.Q. psychology ever written; Wittgenstein; magnum opus; the components of wisdom; more variance between males and females; a centralized platform for test-creators; good standards; a philosophical stance; paideia; a great level of expertise; the criminals and cults; Kevin Langdon; Master Chef Craig Shelton; people interested in joining high-I.Q. communities; and goals now.
Keywords: Catholiq, Chris Langan, D. Kutle, Dawid Skrzos, Deus Vult, Erik Hæreid, Gianluigi Lombardi, Heidegger, Heinrich Siemens, high IQ community, high-I.Q. societies, Ivan Ivec, James Dorsey, JCCES, Jean-Mathieu Calut, Joe Feagin, Jonathan Wai, Joseph Dinouart, Keith Raniere, Kirk Kirkpatrick, Kirk Raymond Butt, Ludwig Wittgenstein, Mega Society, megalomania, Paul Cooijmans, Plato, Ronald Hoeflin, Rick Rosner, Robert Lato, Santanu Sengupta, Sidis Society, T. Prousalis, Ultima IQ society, Wu Meiheng, X. Jouve, YoungHoon Kim.
Conversation with Luca Fiorani on Everything Under God’s Sun: Member, Ultima IQ Society (3)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Lots of new stuff has happened. You have left one high-I.Q. society. You are a member of the Ultima Society. As well, you have some new thoughts on high-range testing. Let’s start from the top, naturally, what else has been new in life for you, since the last interview?
Luca Fiorani: First of all, I’d like to thank you, Scott, for the valuable opportunity.
My life is better than before. It wasn’t bad the last time we talked but now I feel that I’m finally flourishing – in a comprehensive way. [Ed. You’re welcome, and congratulations on flourishing.]
Jacobsen: What prompted rethinking membership in the high-I.Q. society?
Fiorani: I’ve left Real IQ society (founder: I. Ivec) because my global score, my estimated True IQ, was not realistic, not even remotely. I’ve realized that the adjectives ‘real’ and ‘true’ were misused. They didn’t fit. Generally speaking, I’m now against too inflated and too lavish IQ scores. The method approved by Ivec is simply too generous and also not all my scores came from credible and reliable high range IQ tests.
Instead, I’m still a member of Ultima IQ society – cut-off 170 σ15 – because I had entered when the requirements were robust and because “170” is not utterly craziness.
Jacobsen: What happens when membership or entrance requirements in high-I.Q. societies become too lax, even too strict?
Fiorani: When the criteria become too lax, the scores are less serious, less rigorous and people are more inclined to several delusions – unfortunately, megalomania included. They cajole themselves that the resulting scores are legit, trustworthy, stable but very rarely that is actually the case.
Currently, within the high IQ community, it does not happen that the criteria are too strict. At least as far as I know.
Jacobsen: What high-I.Q. societies seem to have strict and legitimate entrance requirements at the moment? I do not mean necessarily higher I.Q.s, simply the boundaries are set reasonably tight, and the testing is more valid than not.
Fiorani: Probably this happens with P. Cooijmans’ societies. (Note: I don’t know the high IQ community in its entirety, there could be other well-founded examples.)
Jacobsen: Why those high-I.Q. societies in particular?
Fiorani: Because all in all the test-author mentioned above has remained true to his principles, even when rigid. His work is consistent and self-cohesive.
- Prousalis’ tests and X. Jouve’s tests are arguably better, superior, and when I say so I’m expressly referring to the methodology and the stats; they always give relevance to standardized tests: but right now societies based mainly or exclusively on scores earned on these tests – I mean, the ones designed by Prousalis and Jouve – do not exist.
Jacobsen: Your newer thoughts on high-range testing. What are those? Or, more properly, to begin on this line of reasoning, what are the factors behind the newer thoughts?
Fiorani: High range testing is often stimulating and challenging and sometimes has its validity, coherence, plausibility.
HRTs can be decent and even good psychometric instruments. In most cases, though, the tests aren’t adequately accurate, the subsequent scores should be taken very cautiously, without giving them too much value or importance.
My newer thoughts are born when I’ve become aware of the fact that too many people believe that their huge, astronomical, Brobdingnagian scores are their actual IQs: they are not, in reality. No actual IQ above 180 σ15 exists so when I see this plethora of IQ scores above 190 σ15, I start to think. Many, many, many, many, many – you got the idea?… – scores are not serious, they don’t come from enough reputable tests: as simple as that.
Usually when I take a look at a random listing, ⅚ of the scores are comical.
Jacobsen: How did those factors come into more full reconsideration of high-range testing at the moment?
Fiorani: I just look at HRTs in a more relaxed way and I feel compassion for those people who really believe that their IQs are above 180, above 185, above 190, above 195, above 200, just because a bunch of weak, iffy, wobbly instruments say so.
Less than 2% of HRTs are fully functioning and authoritative.
Jacobsen: Outside of Ultima IQ society, are you a member of any others? If so, why those? If not, why not?
Fiorani: Yes, I am. I’m still a member of Sidis Society (founder: J. Dorsey) and also a few more, e.g. Catholiq (founder. D. Kutle).
I appreciate that Dorsey is dedicated and I admire Kutle as a person and I also like the journal Deus Vult.
I indeed have a qualifying score for Mega Society (founder: R. Hoeflin) but I’ve heard that the members can be too harsh sometimes, so I’m not interested in joining.
Jacobsen: What tests of Paul’s stand out? Why those?
Fiorani: For his tests, I can tell you that I read thoroughly the statistical reports and I take into account the opinion of a dozen of versatile test-takers. His best test is probably Cooijmans Intelligence Test – Form 3E. I don’t have a direct knowledge, though.
Jacobsen: For T. Prousalis’ tests and X. Jouve’s tests, could those tests still be used? People seemed to like the JCCES of Jouve. I know Santanu Sengupta [Ed. 174 S.D. 15] from India claims a high score on it.
Fiorani: I think that Prousalis’ website isn’t defunct; Jouve is back with revised forms of his old tests and other precious stuff.
I think that JCCES gives realistic results and I consider it a nice psychometric product.
Jacobsen: What tends to happen when individuals believe astronomical I.Q. scores claimed based on some of the tests?
Fiorani: They lose objectivity and sensibleness. Their self-awareness is inferior. And a bit of wisdom is required for high intelligence, in my humble opinion…
Jacobsen: What would make scores coming from HRTs, in terms of test items in an overall schema and sample size, above 180 σ15 believable to you?
Fiorani: Without talking gibberish, 180 sd15 should be the ceiling of ceilings, in an ideal, optimal, utopian high range IQ test. A test that gives you your exact IQ and the game is over. This, too, is implausible, since you always need a collection of heterogeneous tests. A perfect, unique, adamantine IQ test that tells your ultimate IQ is not within this plane of existence. Hypothetically – and merely so –, the ceiling of this imaginary test should be 180 sd15. That’s my (narrow) perspective.
Jacobsen: Is the 2% estimate a qualitative estimate, or an actual count and review of some tests and then an estimate?
Fiorani: It’s more a qualitative estimate than a quantitative precise estimate. It’s not an absurd statement, nevertheless. But let me be clear: I don’t want to be aggressive towards test-authors and test-takers who genuinely care about HRTs and find them beautiful/wonderful, for instance. I’m saying that it’s rare that these products have golden quality under psychometrics’ point of view. Regardless, one could find them astonishing for the inherent difficulty of the items, the multiple logical layers and so on. In most cases you have the dimension of cognitive entertainment and leisure-time activity: and that’s not a bad thing, not at all. Issues come when you convince yourself that all the HRTs you take pertain to (a fully valid) cognitive assessment.
Jacobsen: What is your level of participation in Sidis Society? What do you get out of it?
Fiorani: My level of participation is the following: my name is listed at the corresponding webpage.
I get some sort of prestige, in a way. That I’ve achieved a non-negligible level of cognitive performance. And I support Dorsey’s drive. Plus, I like the name, “Sidis”. That’s all, I guess.
Jacobsen: For CatholIQ, what have been the benefits so far?
Fiorani: For CatholIQ, or Catholiq – apparently both spellings are correct –, the benefits come from some articles of their journal, Deus Vult. You’re informed when it comes out and you can also submit an essay of yours, or a poem, etc. That’s nice and the ambience overall is healthy.
Jacobsen: Any common threads in personality or tests between Dorsey, Cooijmans, Prousalis, Jouve, and Kutle?
Fiorani: I think that Dorsey and Cooijmans are both devoted to HRTs, they deeply care about them. That’s what I perceive and infer.
Prousalis and Jouve have designed tests perfectly comparable to professional tests. The stats of their tests are sometimes impressive.
Kutle is a clever man and a noble person. The items of his tests are very nice and sometimes elegant. I recommend Arcanum and Road to Damascus, both designed by him. They require time and diligence and a high level of crystallized intelligence. They represent a fascinating and pleasant intellectual experience.
Jacobsen: What test was the qualifying test and score for the Mega Society?
Fiorani: Ron Hoeflin knows.
Jacobsen: The norms and scores on Paul’s site list a 76 out of 78 on the Cooijmans Intelligence Test – Form 3E as the highest score it. I recall a listing of the three top scores on tests by Paul, out of all tests, in an interview with Paul by me. There was a tie for the top score on all of the tests, at the time, with one of the scores on Cooijmans Intelligence Test – Form 3E. The question, by me, followed by the response, from him:
Jacobsen: What have been the 3 highest legitimate scores on a Cooijmans test by testees to date while using the most up-to-date norms on tests? If I may ask, who were these individuals?
Cooijmans: First, I want to say that this is not an easy question. There are many thousands of scores in the database, and they are raw scores. To compare them, they have to be converted to protonorms. This would not be doable by hand in any reasonable amount of time and effort. To our good fortune, over the course of two decades I have painstakingly written programming code and created a protonorm database so as to dynamically link the raw scores to their current norms, and, for instance, put out a list of scores that exceed a certain level, with the name of the test and candidate if desired. This is the largest and most complex informatics project I have undertaken, and I think it is also the most difficult thing I have ever done, intellectually.
Of course, any good programmer should be able to do this. Still, I must say I never see test statistics by others that even remotely have the quality of my reports, so it seems that not many combine their programming skill with statistics. I set the controls such that only the top three scores remained, and they are 76 raw on the Cooijmans Intelligence Test – Form 3E, and 27 and 28 raw on the Cooijmans Intelligence Test 5. The I.Q.’s are 190, 186, and 190, respectively. I can not give the names as that would violate the privacy of the candidates.
Of course, the norms in that range are still uncertain, and there may be a number of scores right under these that, after renorming, turn out to be equal to or higher than these. (Jacobsen, 2022a)
My inference: The highest scorer on the Cooijmans Intelligence Test – Form 3E is personal friend and writing colleague, Rick Rosner, who is a comedy writer. This matches, not the scores but, the achievements on other well-regarded tests, e.g., Mega Test (44/48 first attempt and 47/48 second attempt) and Titan Test (48/48). This would track with the test selection by you. Rick is of the same opinion as you, about Paul’s tests[1]. How can setting a relatively non-arbitrary ceiling of 180 S.D. 15 help with lots of test constructors without the massive comparative resources of mainstream academia? It has an aesthetic appeal of a clearcut boundary.
Fiorani: Rick Rosner, yes. I know him too. I think he is one of the smartest persons I’ve known within the high IQ community. Not only for his monumental scores on highly reputable tests but also for other commendable and remarkable traits. He’s a great guy, very smart, very witty. As a test-taker, he’s certainly better than me. I tend to believe that his mind is the mind of a genius. Rick is uncommon, unconventional, multifaceted.
The ceiling of 180 sd15 has its beauty and its rationality, yes. The WAIS-IV stops at 160 (theoretical rarity: 1/31,560). HRTs could have a boundary, at 180 (theoretical rarity: 1/20,696,863). We know that the theoretical rarity isn’t exactly and strictly the actual rarity – the actual rarity being inferior. But there’s no need to go much higher. To examine at or above 190 σ15, 195 or 200, for instance. I don’t see the underlying logic nor I find the basis, the grounds. Twenty points above the ceiling of the WAIS-IV are enough, especially because twenty points for the upper, upper end have a bigger weight.
If a test is normed well, scores above 166-170 are already exceptional. Of course, scoring 160+, or 170+, or even 180+ on a very imperfect test becomes easier. That’s why a single peak performance of 180+, σ15, does not impress me. Also, peak performances at 190+ are not as rare as the score per se suggests. You always need to understand the construct validity vel similia. You always have to relativize… Otherwise you might start to believe that the rarity of your intellect is really one in a billion: can we all agree that this sounds bizarre, extravagant, exaggerated, laughable, immensely pretentious?
Jacobsen: Can wisdom be measured in any standardized manner? Or is this more something qualitative or experienced in interaction with someone?
Fiorani: Luckily and rightfully, the second thing you’ve said.
Jacobsen: The idea is measuring the general factor or a generalized factor of intelligence with mainstream intelligence tests and HRTs. This leads to the question. With further reflection for you, how much do HRTs and mainstream tests measure the same things?
Fiorani: Very nice question. The connection between the two approaches is not weak, there is in fact a strong correlation. The more traditional way (standardized tests, timed, supervised conditions) and the alternative-inventive way (untimed conditions, items way more difficult/elaborate, etc.). Mainstream tests and HRTs don’t measure the exact same thing. In my opinion, the main difference is given by the fact that reducing the impact of the sheer speed of thinking, you can go deeper and you can reach higher levels of reasoning and complexity. A deep thinker reaches his/her full potential with HRTs, usually. Someone who scores high or very high on WAIS-IV can do pretty well on HRTs, if he/she is enough motivated. It is not said that he/she will score higher than a topscorer of tough and well-constructed HRTs.
Jacobsen: If there are different things measured to acquire scores, what are the different things measured? I do not mean the obvious in different test items and a schema for the test items to fit. I mean the human qualities or mental traits measured in acquisition of a high score.
Fiorani: In untimed conditions, patience, stamina, perseverance are rewarded qualities. Important mental traits rewarded are: the abstraction, the conceptualization and, in a way, the cogitation. In timed conditions a more basic pattern recognition is rewarded and, always, a fast thinking – and related aspects.
Jacobsen: What are other qualities, other than I.Q. and wisdom, going into one’s intelligence?
Fiorani: Creativity (or profound divergent thinking), comprehension of contexts of different nature, knowledge (or culture), artistry (or mastery of talent). All these facets of intelligence are interconnected and they intersect. The more they are intertwined, the better – id est, you are more intelligent.
Jacobsen: Of those avid test-takers known to you, and for yourself, what do they consider the single hardest test ever taken by them, or seen by them? Why?
Fiorani: Taken thirty years ago, without WWW, the Titan Test was hard. I think that Rick Rosner would agree.
People who take Cooijmans’ tests say that some of them are very hard – Heinrich Siemens and also my friend Erik Hæreid would agree, all things considered.
The two spatial tests by (pseudonym) Robert Lato are very hard.
LDA-SWaN by my compatriot Gianluigi Lombardi is surely hard.
The single hardest test seen by me is IVIQ 16 Test (test-author: Dawid Skrzos). The single hardest test taken by me is SLSE-II (test-author: Jonathan Wai).
Jacobsen: How has knowledge of a high level of problem-solving ability helped your personal and professional pursuits?
Fiorani: Life itself consists of problems and solutions, new problems and new solutions, and so on. This is evidently an answer and I’m smiling right now.
Jacobsen: Megalomania has been noted by others and you. Something not the norm in the communities, but just enough to be annoyance. How should people deal with it?
Fiorani: To avoid irritation and also troubles, some obnoxious individuals should be avoided. It’s sad but sometimes things just work like this.
Jacobsen: What have been the hardest things to realize about the high-I.Q. communities?
Fiorani: For sure the high IQ community has good and praiseworthy qualities but too often it’s a venue for basely egocentric behaviors.
Jacobsen: What seem like positive developments?
Fiorani: Reduce the excessive variety of tests’ norms and make them more uniform. The listings, the rankings, etc., could become realistic.
Jacobsen: How did Ivan react, if at all, to leaving Real IQ society?
Fiorani: He accepted my decision.
Jacobsen: What made SLSE-II by Jonathan Wai so hard? Is it still valid, or is it compromised?
Fiorani: Some of the items require extreme attention to details and some others are slightly and acutely obscure. There’s a certain ambiguity rate.
It’s still graded by Wai, I believe.
The items were discussed and some IQ groups declared the test invalid for admission.
Jacobsen: What makes IVIQ 16 Test look so difficult?
Fiorani: Every item is like a labyrinthine encryption. The author, Dawid S., was incredibly good with numerical sequences and I think he solved all the items of the Numerus series by Ivec. Perhaps he naively thought that a common test-taker had his outstanding skills for numbers and pattern recognition, hahaha!
Jacobsen: What have HRT test-makers simply not figured out? What are some directions to solve these issues?
Fiorani: I would give too vague answers, I don’t know. As a maxim: less generous norms and more detailed stats.
Jacobsen: How is your life flourishing in a comprehensive way?
Fiorani: My studies ended, my romantic relationship continues happily, my professional life has started, I cultivate my interests, I’m less anxious, I’m less bored.
Jacobsen: What about intellectual and creative output of individuals in the high-I.Q. communities? Are there any people who stand out as truly matching their claimed or measured intelligence with their productions and/or productivity?
Fiorani: Yes, there are.
Jacobsen: What type of test would measure, in a single test item schema or a single question type, or might tap most into a generalized intelligence up to and including I.Q. 180 S.D. 15?
Fiorani: A long test with various items – verbal analogies, verbal associations, numerical sequences, figure matrix reasoning questions, mixed in mixed problems – might work.
Jacobsen: Side question, how do highly intelligent people waste their talents?
Fiorani: When they are emotionally unstable – and there are a myriad of possible factors causing this… But what happens next is just a consequence.
Jacobsen: What differentiates the newer generation and the older generation of high-I.Q. types?
Fiorani: The newer generation is less prudent.
Jacobsen: When does speed of thought become less of a differentiating factor for seeing differences between a smart person and a smarter person? What seems like the I.Q. threshold?
Fiorani: The IQ threshold, assuming a rather even cognitive profile, is (approximately) 145 sd15.
Jacobsen: Is there a way to wash out the “basely egocentric behaviors” in the community?
Fiorani: Nope, there isn’t. Sorry for the frankness and the jaundice.
Jacobsen: What are the essential stats to start including in some of the tests moving into the future to make the tests analysis of scores more in-depth?
Fiorani: The following essential stats should be non-hidden:
- A histogram that shows how the scores on a test are distributed.
- A table regarding the items’ difficulty and robustness.
- Cronbach’s α presented & Spearman-Brown prediction formula presented.
- Correlation with standard supervised psychometric batteries.
- Correlation with other significant HRTs.
- Presentation of theoretical IQ per raw score points.
The last one is the most obvious but sometimes being didactic is not a sin.
Jacobsen: What’s new in the sociocultural and philosophical front for you?
Fiorani: The topic of diversity, equity and inclusion – in the media and entertainment industry.
Jacobsen: For your studies, what was the final result?
Fiorani: «Eccellenza».
Jacobsen: How is the romantic life now?
Fiorani: Fulfilling.
Jacobsen: What is your newest intellectual project?
Fiorani: An essay on Ludwig Wittgenstein that might see the light in August.
Jacobsen: On the individuals who claim inflated scores, there is also the factor that they don’t want to believe it themselves as much as they want the public to believe it to keep a modicum of cachet. There is the solution of leaving them alone. So, less about compassion for them and more about protection of others. In other words, what about others who may be less experienced, potentially more intelligent but naïve, on some of these aspects of the communities?
Fiorani: Nice question, again. If a neophyte looks at the scoreboards and the listings, he/she should probably reflect as follows: this is a collection of peak cognitive performances on disparate HRTs, not every score is that phantasmagorical; and the accuracy of the scores is more important than the scores themselves. In other words, which of the displayed scores are obtained on accurate psychometric products? A 160 σ15 can be (literally) more significant – or: with meaning – than a >185 σ15, it depends on the test(s).
I’d say to the neophyte: within the community, search for quality and accuracy, ignore the stratospherical, esospherical, sidereal scores, especially if the solidity of the test(s) is unknown, unclear or low.
Jacobsen: “The communities”, as I type it, I am making an assumption. I had some correspondence with someone about this, in the high-I.Q. communities, recently. The idea is the community as a homogenous, and humongous, blob or a subcultural bloc. To me, “the community “seems more like communities and variegated rather than singular, but modest in size somewhere in the middle 1000s in membership, excluding Mensa International. Does this match experience for you? What else can be subtracted, added to a proper perception of the idea of high-I.Q. communities to describe them?
Fiorani: Well, yes, I agree, this matches my experience. I use the singular – a subcultural bloc – for simplicity but I become simplistic, it’s true. A proper perception of the various souls and cores of the community isn’t easily obtainable.
Reading your interviews is helpful. Here and there, you can see different characters and sense different mental settings. There are diverse kinds of “members”.
Jacobsen: Most members of the high-I.Q. communities seem to have a reasonable skepticism, while some cases simply do not, about claimed scores or achievements on some of these harder HRTs. A more substantiated norm was published by Redvaldsen entitled “Do the Mega and Titan Tests Yield Accurate Results? An Investigation into Two Experimental Intelligence Tests”. The scores can be reduced to the aforementioned range, by you, on the Titan Test and Mega Test to 166-170 for the highest scorers on the tests by Hoeflin, e.g., Cole, Langan, May, Raniere, Rosner, Savant, Sununu, etc. This brings things down to Earth and says something legitimating about the constructs of the HRT communities when the effort is significant enough. What are the lessons from the Mega Test and the Titan Test, and the Hoeflin ensemble of societies?
Fiorani: Reasonable skepticism is healthy and I knew this paper. I think that Hoeflin has counter-replied but I don’t want to wander from my own answer. The point is that these experimental intelligence tests aren’t bad. Perhaps they’re just too ambitious, sometimes. I believe that a possible lesson learnt from the Hoeflinian galaxy is the following: the ceiling of a prestigious untimed IQ test isn’t necessarily above 180 σ16, or 176 σ15.
Jacobsen: Another side note, my other inference: The other highest scorer on Paul’s tests, who tied with Rick, Heinrich Siemens. Anyway, I have experimented with making use of both the intelligence and the expertise of the high-I.Q. communities. One of which is a series of educational interview sets on the relevant expertise of people. One example is the aforementioned Erik Haereid. He’s so well-versed in statistics and actuarial sciences as an actuary. It is in-depth. Certainly, not everyone’s cup of tea, but, also, not something everyone thinks about much, especially how much it pervades their lives. What might be some other good uses of diverse problem solving abilities? There are lots of highly involved people, who, likely, have great ideas to create things helpful to others. [Ed. If others have expertise, let’s tap it, call me!]
Fiorani: Rosner, Siemens, Hæreid: these guys are very, very clever.
Other good uses of diverse problem solving abilities? Projects related to renewable technology.
Jacobsen: Diversity, equity, and inclusion, these have been highly contentious hallmarks coming from academe. What are the first thoughts on the chosen concepts to you?
Fiorani: First thoughts are about the fact that these concepts cause disagreement, they’re divisive. A philosophical question might sound like this: why is controversial and often polarized discussion so trendy and so paradigmatic nowadays? Do the newer media interfere?
Jacobsen: What are the generic positives and negatives for you?
Fiorani: The generic positive is that people talk; the generic negative is that people talk too much.
Jacobsen: How is this of interest in media and the entertainment industry to you?
Fiorani: I try to use philosophical lenses to interpret the phenomena that permeate my life as individual of a highly complex society. Media and entertainment industry are crucial for understanding our current sociocultural macro-context and also its micro-variations.
Jacobsen: What is the content of the production on Wittgenstein?
Fiorani: It’s about the notion of philosophy as „Tätigkeit“ and „Therapie“.
Jacobsen: Disagreement can be a sign of a healthy culture. A culture of higher feedback mechanisms within individuals and between people. It can be toxic too. What are the forms of this disagreement and divisiveness?
Fiorani: Yes, disagreement can be a sign of intellectual vitality, it’s true. Though we need to understand if the disagreement facilitates a proper dialogic instance or not. In multiple cases, you see a non-dialogic approach.
Divisiveness concerns the representation of the (so called) minority groups. Joe Feagin, a well-known sociologist, has described the fundamental characteristics of a minority group.
The topic is too ample, I don’t want to be or seem trivial.
Jacobsen: “Very nice question”, “Why is controversial and often polarized discussion so trendy and so paradigmatic nowadays?
Fiorani: Hahahah, these questions require a dissertation – and I’m not joking. I must limit myself for a criterion of practicality and convenience. Polarized reflections require less effort, you spend less time and less mental energy. We go too fast, we don’t valorize profoundness. Instagram reels or TikTok shorts, etc. etc., represent the immediacy and impulsiveness of consuming, the commodification and barbarization of thoughts, of concepts, of the concept. We don’t reflect enough, we don’t take our time – literally. Choosing a side, and doing so intensely, vibrantly, rapidly, is a shortcut. We like shortcuts.
Jacobsen: “Do the newer media interfere?”
Fiorani: Without a doubt. There no longer is a life completely outside them.
Consider my previous answer, too.
Jacobsen: Kirk Kirkpatrick calls a phenomenon the “American Disease” and Rosner calls it “Superempowered” (Jacobsen, 2018; Jacobsen & Rosner, 2017). Is the degree of divisiveness a reflection of increasing assholery?
Fiorani: You are right, yes.
Jacobsen: When should people put on the breaks on their mouths? What’s the speed limit here?
Fiorani: Let me quote the French preacher Joseph Dinouart and his L’art de se taire (1771), first part, first chapter:
«1. On ne doit cesser de se taire, que quand on a quelque chose à dire qui vaut mieux que le silence.
[…]
- Jamais l’homme ne se possède plus que dans le silence: hors de là, il semble se répanfre, pour ainsi dire, hors de lui-même, et se dissiper par le discours, de sarte qu’il est moins à soi, qu’aux autres.
- Quand on a une chose importante à dire, on doit y faire una attention particulière: il faut se la dire à soi-même, et après cette précaution, se la redire […].
[…]
- Le silence tient quequefois lieu de sagesse à un home borne, et de capacité à un ignorant.
- On est naturellement porté à croire qu’un homme qui parle très peu, n’est pas un grand génie, et qu’un autre qui parle très peu, n’est pas un grand génie, et qu’un autre qui parle trop, est un homme étourdi, ou un fou. Il vaut miex passer puor ne point être un génie du premier ordre, en demeurant souvent dans le silence, que pour un fou, en s’abandonnant à la démangeaison de trop parler. […]».
[Ed. pp. 5-8.]
Didn’t you believe that a polemist born 307 years ago would have answered to your question, did you?
(Of course, if necessary, I might translate, but I don’t know an official English edition of the text.)
Jacobsen: With silence as an indication of restraint, not necessarily genius, and loquaciousness potentially as an indicator of a madman, silence becomes a better heuristic than not. Why do diversity, equity, and inclusion, lean one into talking too much rather than too little now?
Fiorani: Certain themes are important in principle and as a matter of fact. But they are too repeated and, then, oversimplified. As users of social networks and spectators of TV shows, we see how incessant ideology can be – and also counter-ideology can be insistent. The fact is that a topic like this is no longer perceived as a niche interest, we often feel the desire (or compulsion?) to express our opinions, again and again and again. Aware or not, we are already in a circulus vitiosus. We are overstimulated and we feed the exact inner workings of the structure.
A possible solution would be creating safe places and safe moments for ourselves, to safeguard the lucidity of our mind, loosening the chains we’ve contributed to construct.
Jacobsen: What does diversity represent in its practical effects in implementation in media and the entertainment industry?
Fiorani: For example, casting actors of different ethnic groups for playing certain roles/characters – possibly avoiding stereotypes and clichés –, is a practical way to represent sociocultural diversity. This implementation helps or could help more people to feel identified, to feel represented, to feel not invisiblized, to feel not marginalized, via common narrative and psychological devices (empathy, projection, etc.).
This is a deliberately succinct answer, given summarily.
Jacobsen: How is equity implemented in the media and entertainment industry?
Fiorani: Also in this case, in representation and communication, you will need to avoid pseudo-archetypes and bromides. Then it’s up to the public ponder over the outcome.
Jacobsen: What is an outcome of inclusion as a value acted out with diversity and equity?
Fiorani: It depends. (Cf. the two previous answers.)
Jacobsen: How does Feagin define a minority group? In Canada, for instance, Christianity is undergoing a rapid diminishment. It will, probably, be less than half of the population by self-claimed identification by some time in 2024. Is it merely numbers? If so, then Christians will be a big minority as less than half in Canada. They’d already be a minority in the United Kingdom. However, it must be more nuanced in Feagin’s view. How so, if so?
Fiorani: Even if it is not polished, I will quote Wikipedia English (page: Minority group): “Joe Feagin, states that a minority group has five characteristics: (1) suffering discrimination and subordination, (2) physical and/or cultural traits that set them apart, and which are disapproved by the dominant group, (3) a shared sense of collective identity and common burdens, (4) socially shared rules about who belongs and who does not determine minority status, and (5) tendency to marry within the group”.
Jacobsen: Do you think the stagnation or reversal of the Flynn Effect is correlated with the massive introduction of these new media?
Fiorani: Reversal more than stagnation, AFAIK. Yes, I think that it is indeed correlated. This could be seen as a bias of mine but we’ll see what time – and studies and researches – will tell us.
Jacobsen: I’ve received vastly positive reception from the high-I.Q. communities. Rick Rosner called me more rational than him. Chris Langan called me a stupid little idiot. YoungHoon Kim called me a very balanced intelligence and wiser than him. I appreciate all of the compliments. They speak well of one another in general too. There are some shocking things some say about one another. They tattle, so whatever, but to me, hilariously. Less so now. Anyway, and to the point, my other sense of the communities is regular interpersonal stuff seen in any sub-culture and set of communities. People living their lives and competing mentally in their off time. That’s healthy. When it becomes someone’s identity or life, that raises eyebrows to me. That’s, probably, a normal reaction. How about you?
Fiorani: The expression used by C. Langan is a compliment? I doubt so, hahah… I agree with Rick and also with Mister Kim about your balanced intelligence.
Yes, it’s not healthy at all when it becomes someone’s identity. I’ve seen lots of cases, nevertheless. And, again, I agree: the fact staggers me. Luckily, I’m much wiser now than I was six years ago. There are shadows in my career as a test-taker but approximately an eon has passed. Life goes on and improves.
Jacobsen: What might be a good means by which to create such a space for clarity of mind?
Fiorani: Just take our time, in different situations. Consider one of the Ten Commandments: Remember the sabbath day, to keep it holy. There’s no irony nor humor, we can glean a lot more than the literal meaning and we can also omit for a second the religious interpretation(s). Can we deduce the importance of rest, the importance of break, in our (now frenetic and hyper-demanding) lives? We can – that’s my modest view.
Jacobsen: If they’re like me, they could be working 7 days a week at an elite equestrian facility sunrise to sunset, or some other job requiring it. Down time is hard to find nowadays, for some. Even a regular 5 days and 9 to 5, they might go partying or drinking, or pursuing social activities, which might not necessarily be conducive to the creation of a safe space for thought. What about those people? How can they find the time to get their outlet, their space, their place of calm?
Fiorani: Those people still can find ways. For example, you can deem an interview with a pseudo-intellectual Italian dude as refreshing.
Jacobsen: What other factors seem to be behind the reversal of the Flynn Effect?
Fiorani: One should read papers on the matter. As a perception of mine, I see a depletion of people’s vocabulary and scarce comprehension of text. The verbal tasks (subtests) are the most g-loaded in the WAIS-IV.
Jacobsen: What are “Tätigkeit“ and “Therapie”?
Fiorani: The first term means “activity, occupation” and the essential idea is that philosophy, for Wittgenstein, is more an attitude than a doctrine or a theory. The second term means “therapy”, and the idea behind is that philosophy can take care of the chronic disease that the language itself represents.
Not everything can be summarized in a cool way.
Jacobsen: Are you married, common-law, a long-term romance, or a newer partnership?
Fiorani: A long-term romance.
Jacobsen: What are some directions for the uses of the problem-solving abilities for renewable technologies?
Fiorani: In application terms? I say to myself: let’s try not to stray beyond our scope. So, I don’t know, sorry for disillusioning.
Jacobsen: I “appreciate all of the compliments”. If it wasn’t a compliment, then I don’t appreciate it. However, in some sense, it can be considered a compliment. I’ll take it! Thank you, Mr. Christopher Michael Langan. Don’t spell his name wrong, though, I’m told it “can be interpreted as a passive-aggressive form of sacrilege”, by him. Anywho, one of my favourite stories from observing Jouve. I like how a legitimate experimental psychologist, Dr. Xavier Jouve (a.k.a., an almost literal Professor X. of the I.Q. communities), who developed some awesome tests, then transitioned abruptly into photography. That’s truly wonderful. I love that kind of stuff. Does anyone know the reason? If anyone knows, I’d love to know it.
Fiorani: No idea. His comeback is official, though. Cf. the following link: http://www.cogn-iq.org/index.htm
Jacobsen: I’m really happy for you, and the transition self-identified by you. What would you say to yourself 6 years ago?
Fiorani: About HRTs and IQ scores? Take them less seriously. About some pernicious individuals of the community? Give them little importance.
When this interview will come out, I better prepare myself to face a couple of haters and trolls, their possible lasting hatred, entirely motiveless and – in the present – unwarranted. I’m being brave against some stubborn fanatics. They give abnormal importance to small past events related to high range IQ tests. They can become suffocating…
But it doesn’t matter, I’m accepting this interview and I’m happy.
Jacobsen: What words describe this person to you?
Fiorani: The 2017 version of myself? I was emotionally immature and, sometimes, (emotionally) unstable.
My mistakes were not even close to gravity. They have been flaws, surely preventable, but just minor flaws – if I reconsider them with the cognizance of an adult person not disassociated from reality.
Jacobsen: Maybe, if not everything can be given in a cool way, the world simply doesn’t always come in neat packages?
Fiorani: Agreed.
Jacobsen: Could your own philosophical pursuits be considered a form of therapy for yourself?
Fiorani: You are insightful, I confirm. You’re right.
Jacobsen: His official comeback will raise the bar for everyone. What has been the discussion within community about this?
Fiorani: Within the community, I don’t know. Personally, I’m happy. He is ne plus ultra: professional high range testing.
Jacobsen: What are your thoughts on his coming back?
Fiorani: It’s great!!
Jacobsen: Brave the storm! You get used to them. Perspective: They are 2% or less of the population of the super smart. Criminal Keith Raniere is exceedingly rare. He swindled the Bronfman’s out of $150,000,000 (USD). Sara and Clare were in the equestrian world and were known to some of my bosses quite well. He was in the Mega Society alongside Marilyn, Rick, Chris, other Chris, Kevin, Richard, Ken, and the myriad of others. He is one out of a much larger number of super smart people. You’ll do fine. What would you see as the main points of maturation for you?
Fiorani: I didn’t know the names you mentioned. And I was feeling better without knowing, hahaha! I think it gives an idea about real criminals and real crimes compared to trifles and minutiae.
The main point of my maturation: understanding better each context and having a more pragmatic mindset, at times.
Jacobsen: Your “comprehensive way” of flourishing. Would you consider this eudaimonia on a personal level?
Fiorani: Yes.
About the topic, more broadly, cf.:
- Julia Annas, The Morality of Happiness (1995)
- Christoph Horn, Antike Lebenskunst. Glück und Moral von Sokrates bis zu den Neuplatonikern(1998)
- Alexander Nehamas,The Art of Living: Socratic Reflections from Plato to Foucault(1998)
- Edith Hall, Aristotle’s Way: How Ancient Wisdom Can Change Your Life (2019)
Jacobsen: What were the moments of emotional instability? Hypersensitivity, emotionally speaking, is common among the highly intelligent. It doesn’t seem like a mark of shame or guilt to me, more a signal of a longer maturation process due to the emotions catching up with the mentation.
Fiorani: It’s true.
Jacobsen: What were the flaws, minor as such?
Fiorani: Related to HRTs? Well, it has happened that I’ve discussed some items of a couple of active high range IQ tests – which is not allowed and unfair.
I was severe towards myself after that. Later I have discovered that my behavior was less worse than other behaviors of other test-takers. I have downsized the thing a lot when I’ve seen what other testees – pretty commonly – do.
In those occasions, regardless, I made a mistake. Funny (?) thing is that none of the episodes of soft cheating on HRTs entailed a successful outcome, in terms of IQ score. Because: or I didn’t submit my answers at all (so, no IQ score); or my submission has been graded but wasn’t spectacular (so, below my average). Even in the second case, and anyways, I haven’t used the earned IQ score for admission purposes in some high IQ groups. This soft cheating hasn’t brought me anywhere in multiple senses, then.
Now remembering my mistakes is helpful.
Jacobsen: Do you think Jouve would be open to an interview? He wasn’t years ago, for benign professional reasons.
Fiorani: I think he is a reserved guy but you might try.
Jacobsen: What would you consider the self-discoveries over the last several years to bring about self-therapy?
Fiorani: Knowing inner emotions more lucidly. Work in progress, though.
Jacobsen: Where might people be able to find the Wittgenstein paper, eventually?
Fiorani: Still to be decided.
Jacobsen: What is the most valuable part of this “valuable opportunity”?
Fiorani: Sharing ideas and also having a conversation about them. It’s always nice and it is also a underrated experience.
Jacobsen: What was the idea behind True IQ?
Fiorani: Having a good and articulate confirmation of your broad cognitive abilities.
Jacobsen: What is the methodology of Ivec to make overly generous scores?
Fiorani: He uses an extension of Ferguson formula. But the scores are initially hyper-inflated. So, to me, it doesn’t work.
Jacobsen: What other people in the high-I.Q. communities deserve admiration for efforts, character, scores, tests, or healthy community building? The fact of its finiteness makes it capable of cataloguing.
Fiorani: Excluding the already mentioned ones, Kirk Raymond Butt deserves admiration. In his case, you have a combination of multiple traits. Wu Meiheng, too. For scores and character, a French guy named Jean-Mathieu Calut – the best test-taker I’ve ever met.
Several guys have huge scores, though. And several persons deserve admiration, without a doubt.
This list is obviously incomplete, hastily made.
Jacobsen: Maybe, the biggest long-term barrier isn’t necessarily the test items to HRTs becoming more robust. It’s test-takers and test-taker variety. What might increase the number of test-takers to make the sample sizes larger for more valid tests?
Fiorani: Good question but I haven’t found an answer yet, I don’t know how more people might find HRTs appealing. In fact, larger sample sizes would be a blessing.
Jacobsen: Have there been any tests based solely on the most g-loaded items possible? So, both the most g-loaded test/sub-test type and the most g-loaded items from those tests or test items or test types comparable in g-loading. That plus an online testing platform with a smart and narrow A.I. screening processing of the test items as the test evolves uniquely each time – random but not random – on an encrypted platform might give something like a secure place to get lots of people. Let’s call it “The Real g Test”, for real OGs, holla back!
Fiorani: They tried something (most g-loaded items possible) but I don’t know if it’s just chimeric…
Jacobsen: What is the best article on high-I.Q. psychology ever written or known to you?
Fiorani: Lohman, David F.; Foley Nicpon, Megan (2012). “Chapter 12: Ability Testing & Talent Identification”: this one is nice.
But there are plenty of good articles.
Jacobsen: By the way, why did you focus on Wittgenstein, as your necro-therapist?
Fiorani: Plato has spoken about μελέτη θανάτου (meletê thanatou) or “care of death” and Heidegger has spoken about Sein-zum-Tode or “being-towards-death”. I don’t need Wittgenstein if we talk about death.
Or you mean that Wittgstein is a cadaver, νεκρός (necros)? Why him as a therapist, then? My greatest masters have died long before I was even born.
Jacobsen: “Ron Hoeflin knows”, oh, the secrets he holds. Have you see some of his magnum opus?
Fiorani: A bit, here and there.
Jacobsen: What are the components of wisdom? How is wisdom practiced and lived, and witnessed, universally in individuals in all cultures? In other words, what are its manifestations, ingredients, and enjoyable outgrowths to see in others?
Fiorani: Good judgment and moderation.
Jacobsen: I have been interviewing women in the high-I.Q. communities. Yet, the ratio is so skewed. There is the fact of more variance between males and females. Yet, I don’t think the skew of the degree of variance tracks the degree of variance of membership in the communities. Why? I know Rick admits to joining Mensa to get a girlfriend. He even asked Marilyn vos Savant out while trying to join the Mega Society. She’s been super nice to me: She published one or two pieces of mine in her column for me.
Fiorani: Actually I’ve never understood why women don’t join high IQ societies as much as men. Let me know if you figure it out, hahaha!
Jacobsen: Is there a centralized platform for test-creators to have their work listed and linked? If not, I can, probably, make one in an article to advertise them if this helps everyone.
Fiorani: I don’t think that a centralized platform for test-authors exist.
Do as you wish but I don’t think that the creation of such platform would actually help.
Jacobsen: What would be the good standards by which to “make them more uniform” regarding test norms?
Fiorani: We’ve already talked about the detailed stats and Prousalis and Jouve. You already have an acceptable answer. (smiling)
Jacobsen: I’ve been highly involved in a number of philosophical movements – secular and religious, slightly transitioning as I see in practice or witness flaws in either philosophical foundations or sociopolitical structural outcroppings from those foundations, e.g., claiming a democratic movement and then booting properly elected executives, or claiming respect for freedom of expression and then coercing removal of articles from publications… I’m much, much less sure at the current moment. What is a philosophical stance for you, now, either in metaphysics or pragmatic living (or both)?
Fiorani: Anekāntavāda.
Jacobsen: How can the newer generation become more prudent?
Fiorani: Re-understanding the value of paideia.
Jacobsen: Who else in the communities have a great level of expertise in something niche or interesting? I’d like to email them and get another series going with them.
Fiorani: Perhaps you’ve already interviewed the most interesting ones but let’s be clear: „Was wir wissen ist ein Tropfen, was wir nicht wissen ein Ozean“. (smiling)
Jacobsen: I should write another comprehensive article on the criminals and cults coming out Mensa to the most obscure high-I.Q. societies and communities. It’s shocking. I have all the data points. It’s simply putting it together. Before knowing about Raniere, what were the worst cases known to you?
Fiorani: Silentium est aurum.
Jacobsen: Kevin Langdon in a funny recorded talk to the Triple Nine Society made a great point about the idea of screening for high intelligence for a society or a community of people, and then telling them what to do… that seems counterproductive and doomed to fail. The Mega Society and Mega Foundation split was one such case of individuality of several people exploding. It’s public and on the record. What procedures, policies, processes, ethics, norms, should be instantiated in a high-I.Q. group to minimize the increasing individuality of higher-I.Q. people, increase group participation and cooperation and mutual respect, and provide a process for booting assholes, e.g., something more than a simple “No Assholes Policy”?
Fiorani: A procedure like this is antithetical to the quiddity of such groups.
Jacobsen: Mentoring younger people when I have the opportunity is the most meaningful thing to me. One young man, who wanted to be a chef, when I was working in the restaurant industry was a bright light. After leaving to work with and around horses, he said, “Thank you for everything.” It was so moving. I wanted to cry. And I am a little bit thinking of it now. I managed to get Master Chef Craig Shelton, who is a member of the high-I.Q. communities to get me book recommendations for him (he would known better than me). I ordered the books and gave them to the young man. Have you ever mentored younger people?
Fiorani: Happy for you, it must be a gratifying feeling. (smiling)
Nope, I’ve never mentored younger people.
Jacobsen: What are other resources for people interested in joining high-I.Q. communities or learning about giftedness in general?
Fiorani: For people interested in joining high IQ societies: https://highiqtests.com/join
For people interested in learning about giftedness: Sternberg, Robert J.; Davidson, Janet E., eds. (2005). Conceptions of Giftedness.
Jacobsen: What are your goals now?
Fiorani: Keep working on my Self, writing my own story.
Bibliography
Dinouart, L’Art de se taire, principalement en matière de religion, Paris, G. Desprez, 1771.
Jacobsen, S.D. & Rosner, R.G. (2017, April 6). Superempowered: How We Turned Into A Nation (And A Planet) Of Assholes. Retrieved from https://in-sightpublishing.com/2022/02/19/superempowered-how-we-turned-into-a-nation-and-a-planet-of-assholes/.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2018, February 8). Ask A Genius (or Two): Conversation with Kirk Kirkpatrick and Rick Rosner on the “American Disease” and “Super Empowerment”. Retrieved from www.in-sightjournal.com/american-disease-super-empowerment.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2022a, March 8). Conversation with Paul Cooijmans on the Tenth Anniversary of the Glia Society: Administrator, Glia Society (8). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cooijmans-8.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2022b, April 1). Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (2). Retrieved from http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/debunking-2.
Footnotes
[1] “Debunking I.Q. Claims Discussion with Chris Cole, Richard May, and Rick Rosner: Member, Mega Society; Co-Editor, “Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society”; Member, Mega Society (2)” states:
Jacobsen: Some, in fact more than a few, claim extrapolations well beyond the norms of the mainstream tests, e.g., the WAIS and the SB, which cap out at or around 4-sigma. Assuming legitimacy of the claims, then, the individuals would be highly intelligent, but the claims can range between a little over 4-sigma to 6-sigma. How is this extrapolation generally seen within the high-I.Q. communities at the higher ranges?
May: I don’t know how other others generally perceive unsound or bogus extrapolations of IQ scores.
Rosner: I think the skepticism of super-high scores is generally more for specific claims than for the entire idea of being able to have an IQ that high. I think most people in the high-IQ community believe it is possible to have an IQ close to 200. But I think most people also have a reasonable idea of the rarity of scores like that. Adult IQs, the deviation scores, are based on a bell curve, where between 0 and 1 standard deviation, you have 34% of the population in a bell-shaped distribution for something like height. Between 1 and 2 SDs, you’ve got 14% of the population. Between 2 and 3, you’ve got about 1.5% of the population. Between 3 and 4, you’ve got roughly one-half percent of the population.
Let’s see, about 4 SDs, that’s only one person in 30,000 should score above 4 SDs. One person in 3,000,000 above 5 SDs. What is it? 1 person in 750,000,000 above 6 SD or so; somewhere, I’ve fucked it up, according to the standard bell curve. People also like to say that at the very far ends; there are more outliers than on the normal bell curve. That there are more high-IQs than would be given if it were a perfectly bell-shaped distribution.
But even so, you shouldn’t see more than a half-dozen or ten or twelve or whatever, people, with scores above 6 SDs. So, Paul Cooijmans has the Giga Society, which has 7 or 8 members. It is for people with IQs that are supposed to be one in a billion. So, there are 8 billion people on Earth, 8 members of the Giga Society, so that makes a certain sense, but not really. That’s as if everybody who could score at that level has taken one of his tests. That’s just obviously not true. So, way too many people scoring at the one in a billion level. It’s not like the Giga Society has 300 members.
Cooijmans is pretty rigorous in his norming and testing. So, if you have taken a Cooijmans test and scored at or close to the Giga Society, legitimately, Cooijmans has written in the past about people’s attempts to cheat on his tests, but I don’t think there has been a successful attempt in decades. So, people are pretty accepting that if you get a Giga level score on his tests; that you’re legitimately pretty smart. The claims of super high-IQs, there are legit claims based on performing well on ultra-high IQ tests or kicking ass as a kid on a test like the Stanford-Binet or the Wechsler. Someone can say, “As a kid, I scored a 200,” or something.
That’s another thing I won’t go into. People who claim high-IQ scores and are lying are generally not sophisticatedly lying. They’re saying something that cannot hold up at all. I don’t know if there are many or any sophisticated lies about having a super-high-IQ. So, then there are people outside the high-IQ community who are skeptical about the whole thing, but no one is really worried a lot about it, because: who gives a shit?
Also, if you want to say something, or know something that I’m not aware of, that contradicts what I’m saying, go ahead.
See Jacobsen (2022b).
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Luca Fiorani on Everything Under God’s Sun: Member, Ultima IQ Society (3). January 2023; 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/fiorani
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2023, January 15). Conversation with Luca Fiorani on Everything Under God’s Sun: Member, Ultima IQ Society (3). In-Sight Publishing. 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/fiorani.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Conversation with Luca Fiorani on Everything Under God’s Sun: Member, Ultima IQ Society (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 2, 2023.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2023. “Conversation with Luca Fiorani on Everything Under God’s Sun: Member, Ultima IQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (Spring). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/fiorani.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Luca Fiorani on Everything Under God’s Sun: Member, Ultima IQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (January 2023). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/fiorani.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2023) ‘Conversation with Luca Fiorani on Everything Under God’s Sun: Member, Ultima IQ Society (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(2). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/fiorani>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2023, ‘Conversation with Luca Fiorani on Everything Under God’s Sun: Member, Ultima IQ Society (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 2, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/fiorani>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Conversation with Luca Fiorani on Everything Under God’s Sun: Member, Ultima IQ Society (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 2, 2023, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/fiorani.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Luca Fiorani on Everything Under God’s Sun: Member, Ultima IQ Society (3) [Internet]. 2023 Jan; 11(2). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/fiorani
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/01/15
*Interview conducted January 2, 2022.*
Abstract
Cindy Waslewsky went to Stanford University and competed on the Varsity Gymnastics and Ski Teams. She earned a B.A. in Human Biology in 1982. She earned a Diploma in Christian Studies at Regent College in Vancouver, and a BC teachers’ certification from the University of British Columbia in 1984. She was the President of the Squamish Valley Equestrian Association. She is a certified English and Western coach. Waslewsky is co-owner of Twin Creeks Ranch. Waslewsky discusses: a bigger picture within Twin Creeks Ranch; a standard procedure in the industry within the Lower Mainland; the Council in the Township of Langley; particular bylaws; the industry as a whole in the Lower Mainland; the main providers of feed; and the horse is a part of their own family.
Keywords: agricultural science, ALR, British Columbia, Bylaws, California, Cindy Waslewsky, clients, Equestrian, Federal and Labor Relations Act, horses, Icelandics, Lower Mainland, Mayor Eric Woodward, Mayor Froese, Otter Co-op, ranches, Squamish, Steve Waslewsky, Township of Langley, Twin Creeks Ranch.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 41: Cindy Waslewsky and Steve Waslewsky on Big Picture Operations, the Township of Langley, ALR, and Bylaws (3)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s take a bigger picture within Twin Creeks Ranch as a whole, first, as well. With the indoor arena, the training center at the round pen, the racetrack, and the clubhouse trails, all of these combined into a package of 125 acres; how do you build this into an operational business? From what I’m gathering, a mild constricting of the environment for equestrianism, at least, in British Columbia a little bit, particularly in areas like the Township of Langley with rising property prices and, thus, a decrease in the number of people who can afford.
Cindy Waslewsky: No, that’s a really good point. I mean we came in and there’s hyperbole because they say the “horse capital of Canada” [Ed. I even wrote that.] or something ridiculous like that. I’m looking at it like this, “Yes, but it’s shrinking rapidly”, and the people who can tell me that are our feed suppliers. They’re the ones that see it the most because they’re seeing how much feed is being purchased for horses in our area. The land value is high, so I see a lot of boarding places. People come to us over “our boarding place is shutting down”, or “it’s being redeveloped”, or “they’re selling to somebody else’, “it’s difficult to afford lessons and a horse”. It’s fewer and fewer people that can afford that a hobby. I mean people say, “Oh, skiing is expensive.” Well, skiing is cheaper than riding because when you’re not skiing, then you’re parking in your garage. You’re not feeding your skis and shoeing your skis, and your skis don’t go lame on you when you need them and get an abscess, or pull a tendon.
So, there’s a lot of cost to horses to keep them well. You’re shoeing them every six to eight weeks. You’re getting dental work on their teeth once a year. Floating the teeth cost $200 to $400 depending on the horse. It costs about $200 now for hot shoes every six weeks, and then your whole sport is going to start at 700 a month when you start putting up your feed in. Feeding and mucking and a place to ride, you’re in $700 at the bottom end. You’ll see our boarding rates. If you look around, we’re on the low end with two indoor arenas. But we have staff that live on the property. We bring our hay in by the B-train load. We do pelletized bedding for environmental concerns. They used to do straw way back in the day, and then they moved to shavings. Shavings are stored and you try to keep them dry. You put them in, but you still have to pull the shavings out. You almost have to put lime underneath it because of the pee, which is now urea. You don’t want that to build up in the stall.
And so, what has happened, they had to switch to pellets, which we used as soon as we took over the farm. We went to pelletized bedding, which are bags, and it is pellets. You split the bag open. You add hot water, and then pop the pellets back up, and then you spread them out there. they’re made of pine, so you don’t have any allergies in the horses. You clean it like kitty litter. So, you take out all the manure that you get used to doing that with your fork and then where these horses pee; they’re usually peeing in the same corner of their stall. So, our staffs have gotten to know the horses; they pull back the bedding and pull out all the wet stuff and it clumps together like kitty litter. So, all the wet shavings come out in a clump together and then they spread the dry stuff back up to soak up any more pee and pull that out and then cover it up and then they might put one fresh bag on top and we might put a fresh bag on maybe every other day depending on the horse and how messy they are. They shred the manure in their stall in those shredders and then there’s some that poop in one little corner. You go and clean it up. It’s so much easier. You get to love certain horses that are cleaner.
So, we can then spread that. That manure goes in the pile within a year. It is broken down because it’s essentially dust. By the time we’re taking it out of the stall; we’re only taking manure and only the shavings that have pee or urine in it. So, we don’t have big chunks. We have dust that breaks down very quickly. It has mostly manure, a little urine, a little bit of dust, and then we pile it. We manure spread on our property. This disposal of manure. Some places bin their manure and have to have it hauled out. I think there are places making topsoil that buy the stuff or, at least, charge you to take it away for a somewhat more reasonable price, but it is a significant expense for some of the barns: manure disposal. So, the pelletized bedding, our staff go in there with one big wheelbarrow. They can do four stalls. You would fill up one wheelbarrow with the shavings and dump them out there. Now, it’s about a quarter of the waste we have to spread. It’s easy. It breaks down much more quickly. So, environmentally, far better, other than the plastic bags, which they don’t take for recycling. It’s driving us crazy. We want to recycle these plastic bags, but they won’t pick them up at the curb. They won’t take them at the cycling place. We’re like, “These are plastic bags, recycle them, please.” That’s the only downside, so far. That may get worked out. I don’t know how that’s going to work out. However, we’re not political enough and agitating for something there.
Jacobsen: What is a standard procedure in the industry within the Lower Mainland? That is costing a lot of money and causing unnecessary expense to the owners, to the environment, and to the horses that could be changed easily. What is another example of this?
Cindy: What’s something else costing people or the environment?
Jacobsen: People who own ranches or facilities, individuals who are clients, or the horses themselves, or the environment.
Cindy: Some of the mandated manure management programs. My husband did agricultural science. We built a resort in Squamish. He had worms in the soil within a year. Then they’re coming along and saying we need to build this concrete bunker and put all your manure in this concrete bunker that’s covered from the rain and everything else. Then you have to spray it so that it breaks down. We’re like, “We have a system that is working extremely well. You’re wanting us to do it this other way that is very expensive to put in. We question its efficacy.” They don’t want things leaching into creeks. I get that. But if you have a place that’s far enough from the creek, which we truly do, out in by the trails, we don’t understand why we had to go and set up a whole different system. That’s expensive. Also, most horse operations, we’re zoned commercial. So, our hydro rates are double what anyone else is paying. So, hydro rates are higher for any commercial operation as when you compare it to a residential.
You have people giving ‘helpful advice’ about things like manure management and animal care. We had cows in mud. We had someone report us to SPCA because our cows were in the mud. SPCA came out and looked at them and goes, “Well, this is how cows live!” It gets muddy when it rains for a while. Even though, we have pads around all the feed stations. We have cover places for them to have their hay and stuff. So, sometimes, people don’t understand animal care. They’re thinking about, maybe, their pets, what they their pets would need. I know horse boarding doesn’t qualify when you have ALR land as, of course, the land reserves. You want your farm tax status. Horses don’t count and boarding horses does not count as an agricultural operation.
Jacobsen: What could Mayor Froese [Ed. Former mayor, current mayor of the Township of Langley is Mayor Eric Woodward.] in the Council in the Township of Langley or other townships do to better serve the pragmatic needs of the equestrian community at large?
Cindy Waslewsky: Let me hold for a second, because this is something I would definitely like to hear from Steve on. So, Steve, there are two questions. The first question I want to think about it for a minute. What are certain restrictions or things that are creating unnecessary expense for equestrian operations and horse owners in Langley? And the second part of that question would be: Is there anything that mayor Froese or Town Hall could do to improve the viability of horse operations in this area because they are shrinking rapidly? Okay, I’m going to put on the speaker.
Steve Waslewsky: The problem would be the Federal and Labor Relations Act. It’s very inflexible and very expensive. All the payroll deductions and such, a lot of our colleagues are being priced out by labor costs, which the government is creating. As for Langley, nothing really comes to mind. So, yes, because we take care of people’s horses and we’re not breeding, we don’t get farm tax status. We do because we also raise hay and we had cattle until recently. That’s how we got our farm status. Without farm status, we’d be shut down.
Jacobsen: What about particular bylaws that are helpful and in place now, or what could be proposed by the equestrian community to help themselves within their particular townships?
Steve Waslewsky: Well, probably, the number one would be that we ought to be included in it is as a farm status. A lot of places simply can’t afford to be open without farm status. That’s why they’re shutting down. Locally, they’ve become much fussier about enforcing farm status, not with the equestrians, but with everybody else. I know a couple places, where they lost their farm status all to the equestrian operations. Nothing else really comes to mind. I don’t deal with them much because we operate under the table and try not to attract attention. Dealing with government is like being a nail. We’re very quiet about what we do and how we do it. We fall into a little bit of a niche. We exploit that niche maintaining our farm status through actual farming activity. Without that, there’s no question that we would be closed. Equestrian operations take far too much property and resources of an area, where the taxes and bylaws are really set up for more intensive businesses like lumber yards and such. So, that’s where we fall into a little bit of a niche.
Jacobsen: What would that do to the industry as a whole in the Lower Mainland?
Steve Waslewsky: Well, it’s shrinking because the whole lower middle class is shrinking. I’ve been told by people, feed companies and such, that since we took over in 2004, really the entire equestrian industry has been dropped by at least a half. So, we are in a dying industry because of a dying middle class. That’s more of a federal/provincial issue than it is a municipal one.
Jacobsen: Who are the main providers of feed now?
Steve Waslewsky: On a retail basis?
Jacobsen: In terms of producing.
Steve Waslewsky: It all comes from outside the area here. Otter Co-op does produce some. I’m not sure if they actually produce horse feed or not. I think they probably do. I think there’s another one called Ritchie Feeds. I think they do their own stuff too, but all the rest are bringing in from outside the area.
Cindy Waslewsky: We can hot walk a horse in a circle, so that the shed low goes in a circle. So, you can hot walk your horses undercover. That’s great if a horse is colicky or something like that. You need to monitor and walk the horse. You’ve got a space right there outside the stall to do that. So, we have crossties there and huge tack rooms that are insulated. One of our staff members lives in a suite off the same barn. She’s a single girl. She worked at North Shore Equestrian Centre before she came to us, so a good experience that she’s got into the vet tech program starting January 1st. Then across from the barn, we have two suites there, again staff. One’s a single fellow who does basic maintenance. We have lots of equipment. So, he’ll harrow the arena, clear the trails. He’ll check the water lines, of course, with this cold snap; getting frozen lines working again and plowing snow, all that stuff. Then to the left of his suite or to the right of his suite is a young couple, she works in the barn and her partner is an IT guy who works from home. So, when we had this bad weather, he was out helping her in the barn, and then, as I said, one woman who has the four kids. The partner was up helping the barn too, so we had extra help.
So, having everyone live on the property, they’re feeding at 7 in the morning. They’re feeding at noon. They’re feeding at 5. They’re feeding at 9. So, to drive back and forth would not be very efficient, but you can go out there and feed at 7 in the morning, and then go in and warm up or have breakfast, you can come back out and start doing stalls and at 9:30 turn some of the horses out. Some are in what we call “in-and-outs”, where they can walk out.
When people contact us, I would say about almost half our stalls are now in-and-out because what my husband did is he created more in-and-outs off the back of the barn and tried to make as many of them in-and-out stalls. Every other stall is an in-and-out because you don’t want the run, the pen, to be the same width as the stall; that’s too narrow. They can get cast and things like that. So, what you do is if one stall has an in-and-out, the next stall that horse gets led out to a paddock outside the next one’s in-and-out, where they can run in and out at will. The next one we lead them out. So, we have good generous paddocks. Every horse has a paddock. They get turned out no matter what, e.g., pouring rain. They’re out for half the day. When they have this freezing weather, they were out until almost 1 o’clock in the afternoon, and then we brought them in for their lunch because the water was freezing. Even if we gave them a bucket, it was frozen before they needed it when they got fed their lunch. You cannot feed a horse without water available to them. They need water.
So, that was a limiting factor. So, we bring them in at 1 o’clock, and then have the lunch inside. Normally, we’ll keep them out as much as we can keep them out, and in the Spring and the Fall and in the Summer; they could be out 24 hours a day. They have more room in a paddock than they do in a stall. They can see their neighbor, but they each get their own feed in a feeder. That’s on the rubber matting, so it doesn’t fall onto the crusher. The gravel stuff that they’re living on, and they have auto waters as well. We took out all the hog fuel and put in crusher, which is a blend of different kinds of sand and fills. So, it’s firm and doesn’t harbor fungus because we’re living in the Pacific Northwest.
I grew up in California, didn’t have rain, and mud fever and all these other different kinds of fungus on horses up here. But up here, you’ve got to be very careful that they have a blanket on. They’re going to be out in the rain, so that they don’t get damp and get a fungus on their back called ring sore. You can’t even then put a saddle on if they get too sore. You have to stay on top of those things. So, anyway, we have staff living on the property. We have options of in-and-out stalls. Ones that you lead horses out to paddocks and back in again, and then we have a couple of what is called loafing sheds, which means it’s a shelter. We have two Icelandics that love to be outside in the snow, rain; they love to be outside. They have a shelter, where they can get out of the weather, but they’ll be standing outside most of the time. We do have a stall for them if the weather is really bad or the water starts freezing. We can bring them inside if we need to do that. But they love being out, they’re shaggy little guys. They love being outside.
On our property, we have the main indoor arena. We have dressage letters up. We have some jumps. We have show-quality jumps. We don’t set up, often, because they’re heavy to lift in and out. We have other jumps that are easily put in and out for lessons and for people to practice on, but we have a multi-disciplined barn. In other words, we have people who like Western and English. In Western, you might have Reiners. You might have pleasure. You might have trail horses. In English, you might have dressage, hunter, jumper, and simply pleasure trail horses. We tend to have more older riders with a few younger people, who this is the first horse that they’ve brought in here. People, of course, are somewhat price conscious because it’s really expensive owning a horse. It’s getting more expensive because we’ve seen costs skyrocket. We have voluntarily increased the rates and wages for our workers. We do the same thing in a per diem; this is how many horses you have, this is how much you get per horse to clean and feed them for the day.
Now, if you have 31 horses, and that’s too many stalls to do for one person, which it really is, then we say you get a secondary worker and then they get paid for the stalls they do, and you get paid the primary wage. So, it all works out. Our staff have three primary, stock barn staff people. They make up their own schedule. They talk together. They work it out. Some are at school. Some have kids. So, they work together and make up a schedule that works for them. They cover for each other. They make sure everyone’s okay. Then we have another fellow, Hank, who does maintenance and, like you, he can jump into the stalls. He can do stall work. He can do buckets. He can bring the hay down for them. He does maintenance. So, he’s there if anyone’s sick, if anyone needs a hand, and if something happens like a pipe break or anything happens. They call him. So, they have that as well as my husband and I who live on the property as well.
Jacobsen: Is Steve available right now as well by the way?
Cindy Waslewsky: Yes, Steve’s upstairs; he’s not a chatty person. If you had specific questions for him, he’d be happy to answer them. He, like I said, does a lot of the maintenance. Like we mix our own footing for the arena, we mix footing for our paddock. We call it crusher because it’s not that hard. So, we also have three and a half kilometers of trails, which he put in with his own GPS lining up through the woods and clearing out trails and grazing them up, putting culverts in, and then putting landscape cloth and then crusher on top. So, a nice trail that you would see at Alder Grove Park or Camel Valley Park. We have some half kilometers of trails here on the property. So, as you saw on the web page, we have a round pen, a main indoor arena, a second indoor arena, which is like the lunging arena that we have. It’s a 72 x72, so it’s a nice 20-meter circle with a coverall. Then we have three and a half kilometers of all-weather trails, so it’s not muddy. They’re a good footing. Trees fall down, branches fall, things happen with these storms, recently. We go out and clear them off, and then we have a half-mile sand racetrack.
Now, the racetrack is not what you would see for training racehorses. The inside rails are out. So, it’s basically a recreational track. We still harrow it. We keep it maintained. You can go out there. You can walk around the track, trot, or do a little gallop. Sometimes, I’ll take students out. We’ll do a slow canter contest, and then the fastest walk contest. We’re trying to train our horses to have good gaits for us to be out hacking on trails and such, and have them in control. We do our hay storage, like this year there was a real crisis for hay because of the fires, the drought, Covid, and then of course the flooding came along. So, hay is difficult, and so we bought a B-train load, which is a truck and a big trailer that’s following it. A B-train load in the Fall, and then we put a deposit on another B-train load from the same hay supplier up North because it’s good quality professionally grown hay.
Steve with his background in animal physiology and nutrition will be happy to advise boarders on good nutrition for their horse, but, as you probably have found, everybody’s an expert. Quite frankly, it’s interesting. Even when he went to UBC, lots of feed studies on pigs, sheep, goats, chickens, cows, but not many good feed studies on horses. So, you still see a backyard approach, “Oh I’m going to get the beet pulp”, or “they’ll get their weight up”. The beet plants, it’s great for hydrating your horse because you soak this pulp and some people do that to try to put weight on the horse, but I would question their more scientific knowledge of the digestive system of the horse.
We can advise boarder. But if they want this, that, or the other thing, we accommodate them because that’s not livestock to them. That’s not even a pet. That horse is their child. You’ve seen that. Have you not? These women and guys, often, their kids are grown up and gone. These horses are their family. They’re their children, very important to them. So, horse boarding is a very unique business. They really think you’re taking care of people’s horses. We’re taking care of people by taking care of their horses.
Jacobsen: Talking to clientele while working… certainly, individuals who own one or more horses feel as if the horse is a part of their own family. Also, a common sentiment, I find, among those in the equestrian industry with only a few months out of my belt granted, is the sense of a lifestyle. So, you either dive to the deep end first, or it’s a foot in the door phenomenon, where once you start getting into it; more or less, you don’t leave. Unless, you’re forced to leave due to finances or some other catastrophic circumstance. People love it; it is their lifestyle.
Cindy Waslewsky: I have adults coming to me for lessons who have always wanted to ride. Now they’re close to retirement, they now have the time. They have the money. Some of them don’t have the health anymore, so we make sure they’re on a horse that suits their limitations. You’ll see this all the time. People come to me. They might take some lessons. Hopefully, they do take a good number of lessons and really learn horsemanship, ground manners, training techniques, and then get a horse. When they get that horse, the worst thing is to be over the horse; to get a horse that’s a little too much, a little bit too athletic, too high energy, too high maintenance, not as well trained and needs more training. If you don’t get someone with that knowledge, then you get a horse that becomes somewhat dangerous for that rider. Unfortunately, that horse then doesn’t always get a good chance with the next owner either. They get labeled. They’ve developed some bad habits. I always say a horse is like a dog. Get a dog and train that dog, an ill-trained dog, an insecure dog, or an aggressive dog is not a happy dog. Indeed, it could be a danger to a person, and then you might have to put the dog down because an incident happens. I’ve seen that in the horse world as well with horses that are great animals, but have not had the best riding and training at some point in their life. It is human made problems in the horses that the good trainers have to go in and try to fix.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 41: Cindy Waslewsky and Steve Waslewsky on Big Picture Operations, the Township of Langley, ALR, and Bylaws (3). January 2023; 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-3
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2023, January 15). The Greenhorn Chronicles 41: Cindy Waslewsky and Steve Waslewsky on Big Picture Operations, the Township of Langley, ALR, and Bylaws (3). In-Sight Publishing. 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-3.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 41: Cindy Waslewsky and Steve Waslewsky on Big Picture Operations, the Township of Langley, ALR, and Bylaws (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 2, 2023.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2023. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 41: Cindy Waslewsky and Steve Waslewsky on Big Picture Operations, the Township of Langley, ALR, and Bylaws (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (Spring). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-3.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 41: Cindy Waslewsky and Steve Waslewsky on Big Picture Operations, the Township of Langley, ALR, and Bylaws (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (January 2023). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-3.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2023) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 41: Cindy Waslewsky and Steve Waslewsky on Big Picture Operations, the Township of Langley, ALR, and Bylaws (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(2). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-3>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2023, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 41: Cindy Waslewsky and Steve Waslewsky on Big Picture Operations, the Township of Langley, ALR, and Bylaws (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 2, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-3>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 41: Cindy Waslewsky and Steve Waslewsky on Big Picture Operations, the Township of Langley, ALR, and Bylaws (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 2, 2023, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-3.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 41: Cindy Waslewsky and Steve Waslewsky on Big Picture Operations, the Township of Langley, ALR, and Bylaws (3) [Internet]. 2023 Jan; 11(2). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-3
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 40: L.J. Tidball on Staffing, Tiffany Foster, Brent Balisky, and Horses (2)
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/01/15
*Interview conducted December 26, 2022.*
Abstract
Laura Jane “L.J.” Tidball has been the Manager of Thunderbird Show Stables, an elite hunter and jumper facility, for 20 years. She is a shareholder and contributing partner to Thunderbird Show Park, which has been voted in the top 3 equestrian show facilities in North America. For Show Park, she has been important in advising on top level equine footing, site development plans for capital improvement, and competitor scheduling for National and FEI competitions. She has been competing at the Grand Prix level since 16-years-old. Since winning the Equine Canada medal (1994) and competing on the British Columbia Young Riders’ team (1996), L.J. pursued equestrianism as a career with a fervent passion. Tidball shows multiple mounts of Thunderbird Show Stables and its clients in the hunter and the jumper rings. Through work from the pony hunters onwards with the assistance of Olympian Laura Balisky and Laura’s husband, Brent, L.J. has achieved many years of success in equitation, and the hunters and the jumpers. In 2005, she returned from a successful European tour to operate Thunderbird on a professional basis. She has been awarded the 2014 Leading BCHJA 2014 rider in the FEI World Cup West Coast League Rankings and the 2014 BCHJA Leading Trainer of the Year. In her spare time, her hobbies include baking, skiing, and snowboarding. Tidball discusses: a mammal that does not lie; the income generation; staffing an issue across this industry; common factors; horses; dangers of the sport; admire; not a natural talent; decompress; Brent; a second wind; the Longines; and the community feel.
Keywords: Amy Millar, baking, Beth Underhill, breeding, Brent Balisky, California, clientele, Emily Carr, Fédération Equestre Internationale, Ian Millar, L.J. Tidball, Longines, Mario Deslauriers, Spruce Meadows, Tiffany Foster, training, University of San Diego.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 40: L.J. Tidball on Staffing, Tiffany Foster, Brent Balisky, and Horses (2)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You were noting in the earlier part of the interview about reading the horses. In the sense that, you can read them. You can feel what they are trying to tell you. Are horses a mammal that does not lie?
L.J. Tidball: I don’t think they lie. I think horses are very truthful. They’re not duplicitous in how they act. They do not ‘tell’ you one thing and mean another. I really believe they are straight shooters. I think as horses come up through the levels. It is very hard to tell when jumping 1.20m or 1.30m if the horse can make it to that top level. I think that’s a special animal. I believe once you jump 1.40m and 1.45m, you see where they will go. You don’t think, “That one can jump 1.60m.” When they are a foal, you can have the right bloodline and training program. However, it still may not do that. So, I would say that is the intriguing part of our sport. To see these young horses come up through the ranks, make these goals for them, and put your heart and soul into what you’re doing, and see where they end up, it is a unique process that we get to do as equestrians and as athletes.
Riding is so unique that way. We don’t age out. There is longevity in it. There is a whole business within it. I make my income from horses. Most people doing sport for a living, are not making their income from it and around it. Riding is not a hugely sponsored sport. We make our income in training and buy-and-selling horses. That is pretty unique.
Jacobsen: Where do you see most of the income generation, from the breeding, training, and sale, of horses, or more from the clinics and the training of clientele?
Tidball: I would say it’s mostly from training clientele, clinics, and buying and selling horses for your clients. I think that’s where most of the income comes from, not when we breed horses. There are horse breeders who make a good living from just that, but it’s much harder. You would think of 100 kids. How many are going to be an Olympic athlete? That’s what you’re looking at with these horses too. Like I said, you can have the right bloodlines, breeding, and training program, you’re not guaranteed the result. To bring the horse along, you can breed it yourself, then you have it for 3 years before sitting on it. Those expenses build up over time. It is more of a passion on the breeding side for us. If something comes to fruition out of it, that’s just a bonus. Obviously, it is always our end goal, but it is very hard to predict. I love to think that each will be a $1,000,000 animal. But that’s pretty far fetched.
Jacobsen: Is staffing an issue across this industry?
Tidball: I think there will always be people who love horses. I think there will always be staff who come into our barns and our lives who want to work with these animals. They are pretty spectacular. We have amazing horses that we get to go on the road with. There will always be a niche of people who want to be a part of that. Yes, day-to-day barn work, as with the restaurant industry in our area, as with retail industry in general, is hard. Yes, there are shortages of staff. But like I said, because it is horses, I think there will always be people who raise their hand and want to be with them.
Jacobsen: I have read some articles of people who do not compete necessarily. However, they will ride and run businesses. Some free-floating cash they have; they devote it to their horse and their horse life. They will define themselves as a “horse crazy girl”.
Tidball: Right.
Jacobsen: What are some factors common that are part of the identity of the people drawn to that culture? I know young girls and young women are, certainly, a larger population for younger riders. Internationally, we tend to see more men at the higher end, European particularly. What are some common factors, other than horses [Laughing]?
Tidball: [Laughing] Yes. I think it is the love of animals. I have to put it down to that. We love animals. Also, you have to have an innate sense of feeling. You have to want to understand the animal. Like you said, to have that conversation, if you walk up to the animal and have no desire to know what the conversation is, probably, you are not meant to be in this industry.
Jacobsen: Right [Laughing].
Tidball: If you walk up and don’t really care… for example, I’m really allergic to cats. When I see a cat, I don’t want to have a conversation at all.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Tidball: I’m sure there are people who feel that way about horses. You have to want to be around these animals and have to have a little bit of awe towards them too. A 1,000 lb. animal will listen to you and will jump over obstacles for you, because you asked with your heel. It is pretty intriguing. To me, it always gives the feeling, “Wow. How does that work?” Even to this day, I look at it. I’m like, “If they said, ‘No’, it would be a ‘no’.” The fact that we have this relationship, that hey are willing to cantor into a ring and jump the biggest jumps I’ve ever seen because they want to do it with you. It is pretty awe-inspiring to me.
Jacobsen: What do the horses get out of this?
Tidball: It must be the same level of adrenaline that we feel. When you see a horse come out of a ring, they are hyped. When they jump a big jump, to me, it is the adrenaline that comes out of that; the will to be an athlete. It is easy as people to think that our horses have personalities like they’re human beings. I know that they don’t, but I think horses have an incredibly high sense of feel. When we have anxiety or are putting positive feeling behind it, or putting strength behind it, I think they can sense it and feel it. When we feel the adrenaline and the rush, I think our horse is feeling it. So, I think that creates the reward for them.
Jacobsen: The dangers of the sport. Those are very real. I have noted in conversation with people outside of the industry. They have a mythology around the sport itself. In that, it is a soft sport [Laughing]. It’s very dangerous. The injury rates are very high.
Tidball: Yes.
Jacobsen: It was a struggle to find national data, which was only available, as far as I know, all the way back to 1996 (Government of Canada) for a national injury rate list. So, it’s a very dangerous sport. Some of the best people in the sport have had serious injuries. Do you have any of those fears entering competition grounds?
Tidball: No. However, it is a dangerous sport. Like I said, you are riding a 1,000 lb. animal. If you are plagued by that, you should not ride. If being injured or hurt is all you can focus on, then you shouldn’t be on the back of an animal. Because what we feel goes into the animals, if that is fear, you are going to be transmitting fear to them. When you look at race car driving, skiing, or many other sports, not many do you think, “That’s not dangerous at all.” It is a sport. It is not a hobby. I don’t know many sports in the world where you can say the injury rate is incredibly low in the sport. I don’t think it is part of it. Sport is always related to injury. Of course, we try to mitigate the risk as best we can.
Jacobsen: Who do you admire in this sport?
Tidball: I would say I admire Tiffany (Foster) a lot. She has an incredible drive and an incredible kindness about her. I think it is one of the coolest things if you can get to the top of the sport and can take time to be kind and be true to who you are; it is something that I have always prided myself on. I think she is one of the people who I would look up to the most. She has made it to the highest level and maintained who she is and her sense of who she always was. She always has a smile, always has time, to give to people. It is important as we get higher up we become ambassadors.
Jacobsen: What makes her a great rider?
Tidball: I think all people who are great riders are great because we practice. Like I said to you, when I was in Florida and saw how much faster people were, and immersed myself in it, I think Tiffany is immersed in it and gets the practice. You need some talent and dedication. You can’t go practice and practice and think that will do it. She has talent and dedication and practices a lot.
Jacobsen: She has noted in some interviews prior that she “was not a natural talent” (World of Show Jumping, 2022). The idea of practice, practice, practice is akin to the real estate motto “location, location, location”.
Tidball: Yes, I agree. I think riding is completely a practiced sport. The more time you spend at a high level with multiple horses jumping, the better you become. It is like a skier who spends more time on the hill [Ed. Tidball’s mother, Jane Tidball, was an Olympic skier for the Canadian team]. A black diamond run isn’t so hard for you. If you are a beginner, if we put you at the top of the black diamond run, that is terrifying. The more time we spend at a high level, it becomes part of who you are, and second nature. It doesn’t take all the risk away. It doesn’t take all the danger away. But when you practice consistently at a high level, you become better and better at it.
Jacobsen: How do you decompress? I am aware of baking (Fédération Equestre Internationale, 2023).
Tidball: [Laughing] I find I work hard, honestly, I work long enough every day when we are at a horse show I decompress by simply being exhausted. I mean, baking is a fun thing that I do on the side. It really has nothing to do with relaxing. I would never bake, usually, around a horse show, because I simply never have time. I had a scholarship to Emily Carr, which is an arts school, when I got out of high school. Which I didn’t take, I ended up going to the University of San Diego, instead. I definitely have an artistic background. I find the baking and decorating is letting my artistic side come out. That’s, probably, the biggest draw to it, for me. I allow the creativity to flow.
Jacobsen: We talked about the advice Laura gave, and about George and Dianne. What was the advice Brent (Balisky) gave to you?
Tidball: Brent has been very interesting as a coach in my life. He always makes you feel like “I can do anything”. When you walk up to the ring and he says, “You got this”, it is as if it is ingrained in you, you know you got it. He is incredibly technical. He thinks outside of the box, constantly. As much as I say I am artistic, when it comes to riding, I am the round peg in the round hole and the square peg in th square hole. If it works, I will do the exact same thing that works every day. If I got ready for a class in the morning by flatting my horse, and walking the course twice, and then meditating before I got on, and I got a good result, I guarantee: I will do the exact same thing. I will not change the spurs. I will not change the boots. I do not change things well. If something works, I will keep doing it. What I appreciate about Brent so much, he gets me out of my comfort zone. He challenges me to not be the round peg in the round hole. He challenges me to try something different, to think outside of the box, to make something 5% better when I thought it was good enough. Without him, I think I would keep trudging along on the same path and not see the opportunities coming up beside me.
Jacobsen: There are some cases like Beth Underhill and Mario Deslauriers who had their career and had a second wind. Have there been any cases where it wasn’t a second wind, but it was simply a late start for a show jumper – where they started in their later 20s, 30s, 40s, and so on, and became reasonably accomplished in the sport?
Tidball: You know what. I’m not exactly sure. I don’t know anyone like that, to be honest. Everyone I know has grown up riding. I grew up with a great group of young riders, one of which was Amy Millar. Ian (Millar) took us to bowling nights when we all showed in Arizona. That group of us. We – literally – grew up on horseback. Basically, that entire group of people who I know that got to national team levels rode when they were young. I don’t know the answer to that; I’m sure there is one.
Jacobsen: When I was looking at the individuals on the Longines ranking, there were only 90 Canadians on the listing.
Tidball: [Laughing] Like I said, there are not that many of us.
Jacobsen: So, an indication of the culture, of the sub-culture, that has come up. Everyone knows everyone or everyone knows of everyone, in some sense, with travelling all the time, seeing one another, seeing the names, and seeing the performances. How does that make the community feel, nationally speaking, for you?
Tidball: I think we have a really awesome community. When I go to a horse show, I just came back from California, you see people that you might not have seen for months at a time. It is such a high level of camaraderie. I don’t really know any people that are close to me in the sport who wouldn’t hope for the best for you. There is longevity. It is not like the soccer team where you’re a team one year and then off the next, where as long as you are beating the person next you; you’re fine. Riding is not like that. It is such a long-term activity, we encourage each other. My friends that I ride with, outside my barn, whether Tiffany or Kent Farrington. Whoever it is, they encourage. Kent has walked courses at Spruce Meadows with me, to help me out. You learn to appreciate each other. I think it is something unique in our sport. There aren’t that many of us. I respect that and respect the fact that we spend a lot of time together. Besides, it is more fun if we get along. Isn’t it?
Bibliography
Fédération Equestre Internationale. (2023). Laura Jane Tidball. Fédération Equestre Internationale. https://www.fei.org/athlete/10034933/TIDBALL-Laura-Jane
Government of Canada. (1996, July 10). ARCHIVED – Injuries associated with… EQUESTRIAN ACTIVITIES: CHIRPP database, summary data for 1996, all ages. Public Health Agency of Canada. https://www.canada.ca/en/public-health/services/injury-prevention/canadian-hospitals-injury-reporting-prevention-program/injury-reports/injuries-associated-equestrian-activities.html
World of Showjumping. (2022, September 22). Tiffany Foster: “If you look at my life, I should not be where I am”. World of Showjumping. https://www.worldofshowjumping.com/WoSJ-Exclusive-interviews/Tiffany-Foster-If-you-look-at-my-life-I-should-not-be-where-I-am.html
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 40: L.J. Tidball on Staffing, Tiffany Foster, Brent Balisky, and Horses (2). January 2023; 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-2
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2023, January 15). The Greenhorn Chronicles 40: L.J. Tidball on Staffing, Tiffany Foster, Brent Balisky, and Horses (2). In-Sight Publishing. 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-2.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 40: L.J. Tidball on Staffing, Tiffany Foster, Brent Balisky, and Horses (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 2, 2023.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2023. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 40: L.J. Tidball on Staffing, Tiffany Foster, Brent Balisky, and Horses (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (Spring). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-2.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 40: L.J. Tidball on Staffing, Tiffany Foster, Brent Balisky, and Horses (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (January 2023). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-2.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2023) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 40: L.J. Tidball on Staffing, Tiffany Foster, Brent Balisky, and Horses (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(2). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-2>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2023, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 40: L.J. Tidball on Staffing, Tiffany Foster, Brent Balisky, and Horses (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 2, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-2>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 40: L.J. Tidball on Staffing, Tiffany Foster, Brent Balisky, and Horses (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 2, 2023, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-2.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 40: L.J. Tidball on Staffing, Tiffany Foster, Brent Balisky, and Horses (2) [Internet]. 2023 Jan; 11(2). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-2
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/01/15
*Interview conducted December 16, 2022.*
Abstract
Alicia Gadban-Lewis is a Trainer at Imperial Stables Ltd. in Delta, British Columbia, Canada. She was crowned the 2021 Truman Homes Equestrian Canadian Show Jumping Champion. Gadban-Lewis discusses: trainer who really inspires; horse-based sport; and not winning.
Keywords: Alicia Gadban-Lewis, Badge, Barcelona, Beneficial, Beth Underhill, Covid, Delta, Jill Henselwood, Mario Deslauriers, Nations Cup Finals, Olympics, Pony Club, Southlands, Special Ed.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 39: Alicia Gadban-Lewis on Show Jumping Development and Lifestyle (1)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, most of the riders who I have interviewed. They have a very early age of getting into horses. It starts very young. It is a make-or-break period a lot of the time. Sometimes, they will come back after their whole run like Mario Deslauriers. In general, once you’re in it, they do it. It becomes a lifestyle. They continue on with it.
Alicia Gadban-Lewis: Yes, I had a typical start as a kid. I started in Southlands in Vancouver. It started with weekly lessons. It was called “Badge”, which is similar to Pony Club. We did a lot of stable management. Then I joined the Pony Club. Then I had a really naughty pony. She was horrible. I didn’t last long with her in Southlands. I moved out to Delta, which is where our farm is now. It is a bigger training facility. We were out here in a boarding facility until I was 12. Then my family bought the farm across the street from where we were boarding in 2009. That was when it took off for me. It was always a sport that I did full-time. It became our lifestyle. Not only for me, but for my parents as well. All through my junior career, I rode as well.
From the age of 12 when my family bought this facility, I knew this was what I wanted to do. I wanted to be a professional rider and horse trainer. My focus since, probably, the age of 17 has always been learning how to run a training business with clients. That is where I really put most of my attention. I always knew I was a talented rider, so I developed horses on the side. I didn’t really know it was possible for me at the highest level until Covid hit. Tiffany came to Canada. I started to train with her. She exposed me to a different feel and a different level. I have a horse that is good enough for it. I got a taste for the higher level. It re-energized me. Ever since then, I haven’t really looked back [Laughing].
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Lewis: I am totally invested. I want to go to the Olympics. That is the path I am on, the Olympics.
Jacobsen: There are two parts of the response. The trainer who really inspires you. That is something common among riders. Another thing that I haven’t quite delved into is getting the taste at a more elite level of performing, of riding. So, what is the experience of working with someone who knows what that world is like, how to push you? What is the feeling of performing at that level the first time?
Lewis: Being with someone who has been inside and knows how to push you, I have been really fortunate to have a few really good trainers. It is not just one person for me. It has been several that have brought me along the way. When you have someone behind you, the feeling when they know you can do it is essential as an athlete. I think any sport will tell you the team around you is your glue. You are as good as the team around you. With us and the horses, it is the vet, the farrier, and so on. You can’t out-train or out-ride your team. For example, you have to have your groom; I am fortunate to have an amazing groom. It is open-ended for me. It is a really special thing to feel that support. I have had stronger teams at different points in my career and have had weaker teams. Right now, I feel like I have a really strong team. It’s indescribable when you’re in the ring with someone who believes in you and helped you create a good plan, and is there cheering you on; it gives you a heightened sense of comfort.
To answer the second part of the question [Laughing], it is the best thing ever. The adrenaline, the sense of accomplishment, we work for hours and days to live and breathe it for two minutes in the ring. The connection with the horse, at that level. You’re connected with the horse. You don’t only catch ride. I do catch riding with my training business at home. You get on a horse that is a sales horse. You ride it. You give it back. It’s not the same. Competing at that level, you are, usually, with your partner, like the horse behind me, Beneficial [Ed. Points to photograph on the wall.]. I have had her since she was a baby. So, when I think, she thinks it, too. We have a strong connection. Doing it with her at that level, it is even more special. It is a supreme level of happiness.
Jacobsen: It is one of those sports. Of those sports that I have looked into, show jumping, any horse-based sport is interesting to me. On the one hand, you’re dealing with the rider. Theoretically, men and women can compete equally because it is if you can handle a horse, basically. If the horse is too strong, then get a more manageable horse. However, it is interesting because equestrians talk about two athletes when they’re talking about one person and one horse. They’ll be talking about Jill Henselwood and Special Ed when they’re talking about various performances that are pivotal for their career, make or break. To your point, when you’re riding intensely with a horse for several hours, you seem to get that connection.
Lewis: Exactly, it is what makes our sport so unique. Also, we can have a show schedule and plans for our horse. I have a bit of a plan for the Summer. The horses tell us what our plan is.
Jacobsen: Ha!
Lewis: That is what is most important to me. There are moments that you push them for sure. For me, doing it can’t happen without the horse, I feel, too, being able to work with the horse that works for them, individually, and day-by-day be aware of it, and flexible when it needs to be flexible. It is not just a linear path. We are dealing with an animal. Which is what makes it interesting too, you could be having your best day, but your horse might not be. If you’re matching, you feel unstoppable. It doesn’t happen all the time. It is unique to our sport. Also, it gives us longevity, too, as athletes. There are peaks and valleys in our career. You look at somebody who I am so amazed and totally inspired by: Beth Underhill. She has had an awesome career, including many years ago. We went to Barcelona to the Nations Cup Finals this past September. She said, “The last time I was here was the 1992 (or something) Olympics.” That’s so cool.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Lewis: She did that when she was my age now. She is having this second wind in her career. It is because she now has this opportunity with these amazing horses. It is really an interesting thing. It gives our sport so much more longevity. With that comes, as a rider, being ready for the emotions of high times and times of having a training business or a sales business, it is rare to be all out, all the time. I have good horses now. You have to take the opportunity when you find it.
Jacobsen: A lot of the time in the sport, I have heard it said commonly. Actually, I had a conversation with someone here yesterday. They said, “90% of the time or more. You’re not winning.” So, when you get whatever position in the higher end of a class, take it, however, you need the resilience to bounce back because that will be more viable when it comes to those failures.
Lewis: Yes, we jump a lot of rounds. There are going to be mistakes. But also recognizing, you move up to a new level. I jumped my first 1.55m and 1.60m grand prix in Spain in October (2022) with a few mistakes. It wasn’t a negative for me because it is a building block to do it better next time. Both of us needed to get the experience at that level. You have to have a very open mindset. We’re all really competitive at that level as riders and competitors. You have to be careful not to get to obsessed with the end result. You have to love the process. Part of the process is dealing with the trials and tribulations of horses and the sport, and the ups and downs, and training: The whole process. If you are going to have longevity in the sport, falling in love with the process and life of it is important.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 39: Alicia Gadban-Lewis on Show Jumping Development and Lifestyle (1). January 2023; 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/gadban-lewis-1
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2023, January 15). The Greenhorn Chronicles 39: Alicia Gadban-Lewis on Show Jumping Development and Lifestyle (1). In-Sight Publishing. 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/gadban-lewis-1.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 39: Alicia Gadban-Lewis on Show Jumping Development and Lifestyle (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 2, 2023.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2023. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 39: Alicia Gadban-Lewis on Show Jumping Development and Lifestyle (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (Spring). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/gadban-lewis-1.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 39: Alicia Gadban-Lewis on Show Jumping Development and Lifestyle (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (January 2023). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/gadban-lewis-1.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2023) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 39: Alicia Gadban-Lewis on Show Jumping Development and Lifestyle (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(2). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/gadban-lewis-1>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2023, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 39: Alicia Gadban-Lewis on Show Jumping Development and Lifestyle (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 2, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/gadban-lewis-1>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 39: Alicia Gadban-Lewis on Show Jumping Development and Lifestyle (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 2, 2023, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/gadban-lewis-1.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 39: Alicia Gadban-Lewis on Show Jumping Development and Lifestyle (1) [Internet]. 2023 Jan; 11(2). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/gadban-lewis-1
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/01/15
*Interview conducted January 5, 2023.*
Abstract
Deborah Clayton is the Lead Buyer/Vendor Relations for Thunderbird Show Park (2017-Present). She has been the Retail Store Manager for Tbird Clothing Co., a freelance designer, Sole Proprietor/Head Buyer/Designer/Merchandiser of PuddleJumpers Fine Children’s Clothing, Designer for Cutting Edge Designs, a professional model for BIP Daisho/Excel Models, Senior Customer Service Representative for Alders International Duty Free, a fashion consultant for Cactus. She is a graduate of KPU’s Fashion/Apparel Design program. Clayton discusses:
Keywords: Big Ben, Deborah Clayton, Diane Tidball, equestrianism, equitation, Eric Lamaze, F1, Fort Langley, George Tidball, Grand Prairie, Hickstead, hunters, Ian Millar, Kimberley Martens, Longines Ranking, Montreal, Pine-Sol, racing, Show Park, Stanley Park, Thermal, Thunderbird Show Park, vet, Wellington.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 38: Deborah Clayton on Being a Show Jumping Destination (2)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: If you know, how does this compare to other domains of equestrianism, equitation, racing, or hunters, there will be subtle differences. There will be obvious differences between trail rides and carriage tours versus show jumping, but there might be subtler ones when you compare some of the other disciplines.
Deborah Clayton: I don’t think it’s that different, Scott. You have to respect the animal. You can’t go on a trail ride and not tack them up properly and be disrespectful. You have to always respect the animal. It is interesting to see the high-level athlete’s love of a good trail ride around Thunderbird. It’s the thrill, or just walking them, reining them around. It is really cool. I think you see that in your work as well.
Jacobsen: I didn’t realize, as a coupled note to what I’m about to say, the amount of work and thought that goes into the stuff around it: The landscaping, the gardening, the maintenance and cleaning work. Then there’s just the groundwork: Keeping the stalls clean, doing waters, doing hay, and then there’s all the riding, which I have no experience in [Ed. One lesson].
Clayton: Then there’re the vet bills.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] Someone showed me the vet bill. That’s a lot of money and a lot of sub-money when you add up the totals.
Clayton: We had a candle line this year. “Candles for Dirty Equestrians”, which was pretty cute. It was made in Montreal. Beautiful candles, what do you think our #1 seller was? It was “Burn your vet bills”.
Jacobsen: I could imagine the second one being “Pine-Sol”.
Clayton: They were like, “Burn your vet bills. We’ll take one.” It is not for the faint of heart, for sure. Do you know what else blows me away? Maybe, because my husband is in logistics, the movement of the horses. I will have someone who drove from Grand Prairie by themselves with their truck and trailer. Like, I’m talking a 30-year-old professional lady. She loaded the horse and drove it from Grand Prairie to Langley by herself, and unloaded it. You’ll see the horse haulers come in. They’re off to the airport to fly the horses to Mexico City or Europe. Logistically, it is incredible. That’s been enlightening. I didn’t know that that transport happened in such a big way. They have to be very careful that they are not injured in transport or get sick. There are so many moving parts at Thunderbird. I like to say, “We’re almost like a 5-star hotel. We want to give the best experience from top to bottom. A high-end hotel that people come to, for two weeks, with their horses.” We’re always trying to make improvements. The food is high quality. The footing for the horses is high quality. The stabling is high quality. The first priority for Thunderbird is always the horses – #1. Then the other stuff is additional to the experience. If people didn’t like it, they wouldn’t be coming back.
Jacobsen: I feel as though the fun that people have at Thunderbird Show Park is in light of the fact that much of the rest of the time off, when they are not competing, is 6 or 7 days a week. Long, hard work, that takes a toll on people. Emotionally, people get tired, get frustrated. It is not necessarily the environment. It is not necessarily the people. It is more-so the amount of work can get to people. So, the chance to get to go to a really nice place to show is a nice treat. There’s a woman named Kimberley Martens on the Longines ranking. She’s in the Netherlands with her husband running a farm. She would love to come to Spruce Meadows because, for her, it was a real treat to show at places like that, but she said it’s 10,000 Euros one way for one horse. It becomes incredibly expensive when you calculate that and all the other expenses. It’s one of those things. When they finally get to do it, which they’ve had a lot of delayed gratification to do it, it is an enormous treat for them because it is what they love to do.
Clayton: I have friends who have gone to Wellington in Florida or Thermal in California. Then they just rented a horse from someone down there. People find a way. There are costs. But, maybe, they are on someone else’s horse. Then they get the experience. That can happen. I think people are really generous with helping each other out. Not a sport for the faint of heart, for sure, it’s tough.
Jacobsen: That’s one of the myths; I’ve found. When I was doing, not interviews but, article writing on some of the sport and looking at different aspects of the sport in Langley, questions would arise. Then I would become a little curious about it. I tend to be a quiet person and intuit things, and try to reflect on it. I thought about it. What about the injury rates? It was hard to find governmental data on it, but very high injury rates. Obviously, you find more girls getting injured. It is just because more girls between 12 to 17 are in it in Canada. Mac Cone puts it down to the focus on equitation and hunters. But it’s hugely injurious because you can fall off, get bucked off, get trampled on. Anything at any point in time.
Clayton: They are making strides. Obviously, everyone is in a helmet. The safety vests that are inflatable that can fit under a blazer. I think they are very well designed and will become common. You don’t even see them on a person under a blazer. They protect your organs and your neck and back if you fall. It is like how in hockey no one wore helmets and now they do.
Jacobsen: Seatbelts in cars!
Clayton: Seatbelts in cars, now, players wear neck guards to protect the throat. I think it is coming, where they are just going to become standard because we saw a grand prix rider. She may have even won the class during the Summer when she had one on. That was not the norm at that level that they would be. That is going to start it, right? That’s a good thing, keep the sport safer. It is a very safety conscious sport. But it is an animal. That’s what I think is so brave. You can be well-trained, can have the right gear. Ultimately, that is an animal. It could be having a bad day. It is in a way that you’ve never seen. I feel it is as dangerous as F1 racing.
Jacobsen: 100%, that’s a common analogy. F1, NASCAR, similarly expensive at a high level, similarly dangerous, you’re right.
Clayton: Transporting the horses, you can lose a lot of money. But it is thrilling. Nothing is more exciting than when someone goes clean and wins the jump-off. It is grand prix Sundays and finals. They are exhilarating. If people haven’t come, they should come and experience it. Then they’re like, “When can I come back?”
Jacobsen: Things that I see. On the international stage, obviously, there are more men on the Longines Ranking. Typically, Western European men, but in Canada, we produce some of the best – in, fact the best consistently – women show jumpers in the world out of the 80+ countries that are part of it. We are doing something unique with regards to training young women riders into adult women riders.
Clayton: Tiff had an incredible year this year.
Jacobsen: Absolutely, so, certainly, this is more of an outsider’s perspective. It would be nice to see more women at the high end, so changing some of the systems in European show jumping culture and also seeing more balance in Canada. Very rarely do I see young boys riding at the 12 to 17 age range, you may have these boys who have an animal sense, a natural talent of horse sense, can ride on feel. The way it is structured, they are more attracted to things like baseball, soccer, or hockey as in your boys’ cases. I have not done a formal analysis. It would require a little more research and conversation. But I think it would be interesting.
Clayton: Our top athletes in the sport were Ian Millar and Eric Lamaze for decades, though. There has been a shift. They ruled Canadian equestrian for so many years. But, maybe, it is in cycles. I love that it is men and women against each other, head-to-head, because it is really about the horse. Whoever is on top of the horse, they seem to think it is insignificant, but it is relationships, ultimately. I like when riders like her have such a special connection with the horse and everything is working for them. It is really beautiful.
Jacobsen: A lot of people will talk about the pleasure of watching someone in their heyday, like Eric Lamaze in late 2000s, early 2010s, riding with Hickstead. It was a very smooth, easy, but fast and accurate ride. It was very clean.
Clayton: Ian Millar and Big Ben, everyone watched it. It was Saturday television in Canada. Everyone would recognize the name. It was special. We’re getting there with maturity. 50 years is a lot. Thunderbird has maturity with the history of the Park. We’ve had some really special moments. I am very excited to be a very small part of it. I am not a big part of it. It is really exciting.
Jacobsen: What do you find people do in the village? Do they walk and gander at things? Are they on their phones, mostly? Are they picking things up for other people? Are they gifting? What are some of the market behaviours?
Clayton: What we cater to in the village is if they have their food and drink experience, they have their technical apparel that they need or their tack; that they are gifting for sure. Sometimes, they are shopping to pass time for pleasure and connections, or social. Post-Covid, it was back to those lovely connections with people on the front rows of the shops reconnecting. Lots of hugs.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Clayton: Lots of reunions, it is really lovely, and plans made for later. People really do explore our area. Sometimes, they go to the island and down into Vancouver, up to Whistler. The whole coming to Thunderbird experience is really a West Coast experience. We try and facilitate through customer service. We will say, “Have you seen this? Have you been to Fort Langley? Have you made it to Stanley Park? Do you have time to go to Tofino or Victoria?” So, we have to be ambassadors. That is part of working at Thunderbird. You are helpful and an ambassador for all things. It’s good. We are going to try and add more food trucks and things as well. But that is part of the expansion coming later.
Jacobsen: Do you have any final or feelings based on the conversation today?
Clayton: No, it has been lovely. I appreciate it. I hope we can get, primarily, people excited to come to the Show Park this year. They can come to our website too, tbird.ca. The information is there. They can shop our goods. They are designed to be worn in your life, too. I would say an elevated souvenir, but I don’t like the word “souvenir”.
Jacobsen: A keepsake, a memento.
Clayton: Yes. It is really cool. You will remember it fondly with your experience, so you will have an emotional attachment. We are trying to make something for this year to be something for everyone: men, women, children. Also, something to commemorate for the 50 years, so something you can cherish. Oh! I have the best t-shirt. You need to know this, Scott. It is going to be the best t-shirt because it is going to be a concert t-shirt vibe. The back of it is the year, like you would see concert dates.
Jacobsen: That’s like 1973? That sort of thing.
Clayton: No! I am doing this year. I am calling it the 50th tour.
Jacobsen: Are you going to have all the show names and stuff like that?
Clayton: Sponsors, names, making sure to include the George and Diane Tidball legacy, I thought it was essential, because it was our 50th year. “Tour” came up. So, you are going to want it. It is going to come in 2 colours.
Jacobsen: I will order one in each colour. Can I pre-order?
Clayton: Of course, I’ll hook you up.
Jacobsen: Oh! The hook-up, that’s good, for year 2.
Clayton: I am going to get black-and-white images of things past in the Show, then have them mounted as part of the display of the shop. The shop was due to look different. So, there’s a lot of work ahead of me. But it is all very clear. I am intentional in what I am doing. I have amazing help. We will make it really, really special.
Jacobsen: I would love to see some of the old pictures of the Colossus grounds one.
Clayton: I’ve got family. Laura in her heyday, and Brent. It is really cool. Jane has dipped into the archives for me. And I have them. I am excited to get started. Alright, have an awesome day and stay in touch, bye!
Jacobsen: Bye.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 38: Deborah Clayton on Being a Show Jumping Destination (2). January 2023; 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-2
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2023, January 15). The Greenhorn Chronicles 38: Deborah Clayton on Being a Show Jumping Destination (2). In-Sight Publishing. 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-2.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 38: Deborah Clayton on Being a Show Jumping Destination (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 2, 2023.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2023. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 38: Deborah Clayton on Being a Show Jumping Destination (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (Spring). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-2.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 38: Deborah Clayton on Being a Show Jumping Destination (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (January 2023). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-2.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2023) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 38: Deborah Clayton on Being a Show Jumping Destination (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(2). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-2>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2023, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 38: Deborah Clayton on Being a Show Jumping Destination (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 2, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-2>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 38: Deborah Clayton on Being a Show Jumping Destination (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 2, 2023, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-2.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 38: Deborah Clayton on Being a Show Jumping Destination (2) [Internet]. 2023 Jan; 11(2). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-2
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/01/08
*Interview conducted January 5, 2023.*
Abstract
Deborah Clayton is the Lead Buyer/Vendor Relations for Thunderbird Show Park (2017-Present). She has been the Retail Store Manager for Tbird Clothing Co., a freelance designer, Sole Proprietor/Head Buyer/Designer/Merchandiser of PuddleJumpers Fine Children’s Clothing, Designer for Cutting Edge Designs, a professional model for BIP Daisho/Excel Models, Senior Customer Service Representative for Alders International Duty Free, a fashion consultant for Cactus. She is a graduate of KPU’s Fashion/Apparel Design program. Clayton discusses: other options; the expansion; area of specialization within fashion; the key pieces of information or theories of fashion and technology; program in New York; being part of that 35; lesson from that 8-hour period; the background in the field; to a challenging clientele; admixtures; the women clientele and the men clientele; historical trends of equestrianism; fashionable, but boutique; heritage; the business structure for income generation; the retail industry has struggled during Covid; the best sellers; the souvenir items; balance; Canadian culture is accepting and flexible compared to the past for working moms; Iceland; international community; philosophy on customer service; other businesses; a very large ensemble; dedicated village; and show jumpers.
Keywords: Brunette the Label, Chanel, Deborah Clayton, Debra Garside, Desert International Horse Park, Dior, Fashion Design and Clothing Technology, Fashion Institute in New York, Feizal Virani, Iceland, Kwantlen Polytechnic University, Miriam Alden, North America, Salmon Arm, Tbird, Thermal, Thunderbird, Vancouver, Wilson School of Design.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 37: Deborah Clayton on Equestrian Fashion and a Respect for Show Jumping (1)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, so, let’s start from the top, what gave you an interest in fashion? What were other options on the table for you – other than fashion? I am aware of some for you, now.
Deborah Clayton: It was a love of law. I was accepted into law school, but I loved fashion. More importantly, a history of fashion, designers like Chanel and Dior (Christian Dior), really an appeal of French designers as well as the Japanese. I chose a creative route. One of the best programs in the West at KPU, Kwantlen Polytechnic University.
Jacobsen: Was this around the time the wealthy couple opened the expansion? I forget the name.
Clayton: They opened the campus in Richmond. Later, they opened the school Chip Wilson sponsored, the Wilson School of Design.
Jacobsen: Was there an area of specialization within fashion, or was it fashion in general that was the interest for you?
Clayton: My degree was called Fashion Design and Clothing Technology. It encompassed everything from concept to design to construction to delivery. Ironically, because of Thunderbird, I am using every single thing I learned back in the 90s, currently. That’s really, really super rewarding.
Jacobsen: How did you develop your educational experience and knowledge base as you went through Kwantlen Polytechnic University? What were some of the key pieces of information or theories of fashion and technology?
Clayton: We were taught everything from the drafting to the pattern making to the factory costing, the design, history, the processes. The program is second to none in Canada. It was hours and hours of doing it, and application, and mentoring. You had mentoring with a designer. I was with Feizal Virani in Vancouver for two months under his tutelage. I had researched the program. It was modelled after FIT in New York.
Jacobsen: What was that program in New York?
Clayton: The Fashion Institute in New York is the best in North America.
Jacobsen: What does it bear as its mark within the fashion industry in North America?
Clayton: With the case of FIT in New York and KPU, you have to apply. There is a lengthy application process. When I was accepted, I had to come down. I lived in Salmon Arm. I came down to Vancouver and did an interview. They made us do a math exam. It is important to know dimensions in drafting. We had to present a portfolio and also a garment we had designed. In the end, there were 35 of us accepted into the program out of what they said was 1,000 applicants.
Jacobsen: Wow. What was it like being part of that 35?
Clayton: It was hilarious. We were a tight group. It was friendly. We were in the old campus. If you have ever watched the show Project Runway, it was, literally, like that at deadline. People think that is dramatic for television. It isn’t.
Jacobsen: [Laughing]
Clayton: We would be kept there until 11 o’clock. It was like a bell would ring. The janitor would say, “You have to go out.” We would be like, “No!” They would say, “Time’s up.” The final exam, they gave us measurements of a fictional person and their occupation. They said, “Here is the fabric, design a dress for them.” It was interesting. Everything came out differently for every student. You were given 8 hours to do it. From the measurements to designing to pattern drafting to sewing to finishing and costing and presenting, after 8 hours, there were people who didn’t finish. The stress levels: It was the most stressful time in my life.
Jacobsen: What was the lesson from that 8-hour period for you?
Clayton: Now, I know. They made it so stressful so life would feel easier. Because, for instance, I am working the factory for Thunderbird’s private line, the private collection. Yes, I designed it. On Monday, I approved dip samples, the colours. I’m not making the dips. I’m not making the clothing. I’m not putting our logo on. Someone else is doing it. I am managing it, but I have my role. Where, in school, you did every role. That wasn’t realistic. When you’re designing, you have a team that supports you.
Jacobsen: One thing I notice with horse people akin to what you’re saying with fashion. It is nice to know some of the theory. However, you need to have the background in the field. You have to be on the ground working to really get a sense of, not only what each role is but also, the practical elements of how the systems relate to one another.
Clayton: I agree. You see that at the Show Park. There are so many people who go into a horse’s success. It is a team. Horse people are very savvy. They are hard working. Sometimes, surprisingly, down to earth, at the same time, they demand quality. So, designing for horse people has been awesome, because, I know, first and foremost, you want things to be chic and inspiring, but we have a level of quality that must be adhered to.
Jacobsen: There are businesses like Miriam Alden’s Brunette the Label in Vancouver. She has described, in a recent article in the Vancouver Sun (Harris, 2022) about her, about being a horse crazy girl or being a woman equestrian, where it is this idea of trying to keep the high fashion with the dirty barn culture that comes with it because you’re constantly cleaning up. How do you orient to a challenging clientele with that sensibility?
Clayton: That comes down to fabrics, to textiles. I could design something and think, “I would love for it to have silk in it.” But realistically, it has to go in the washing machine. It has to be laundered. It has to work in the barn. There is a limit to how chic in can be, because it has to perform. When I’m buying as well as designing for Show Park, I have to look at a performance factor.
Jacobsen: What admixtures work?
Clayton: Instead of 100% cotton, we are doing a 40:60 blend in our textiles, so it can hold up. It can be handled and laundered. Also, the stretch, it has the performance element. Also, sometimes, a waterproofing because, as you know the area, the elements play into it. Funny enough, in California, down at Thermal, they are getting tons of rain right now.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Clayton: I am always looking to get things like a chic poncho because they can throw it on and it keeps them dry. Also, with equestrians, we want it to look good on a horse too, because it is a totally different challenge. When I look at a t-shirt, we did 1, one year. Where I did a design down the back, it went the whole length of the back. It looked good on hangers. It looked good in the shop. Right? But when they sat, it looked weird. Because you don’t, normally, worry about how things look sitting down. But I love to see the Tbird clothing on riders on their horse. I think it is fabulous when it still looks good. So, I am very mindful of the length and how it looks as they are warming up on the horse, which is, definitely, unique.
Jacobsen: How do you cater to the women clientele and the men clientele based on differences in the fashion tastes, aesthetic tastes?
Clayton: For the women, it is, definitely, fit. They tend to be a leaner lady. I, generally, design for the fit rider who is a little more petite in stature. For the men, I find they’re all striving to be in good shape too. They want to be comfortable. We are looking at stretch elements. Fabrics that have a nice hand. Performance, for sure. Honestly, they like a lean look. They are not looking for big, oversized, and boxy. It is not our client.
Jacobsen: A lot of the people coming internationally, they ride all the time and riding burns a lot of calories.
Clayton: They are body conscious. I notice that with the clientele. Even if they are thinking something, they want a close-to-body fit, but also flattering. It is a more tailored fit, generally.
Jacobsen: Now, I am aware, vaguely, that the red coats, probably, come from a historical trend of fox hunting with the little trumpets and the English aristocracy. Do historical trends of equestrianism play into how you form the fashion and the colour coding, outside of the Tbird brand?
Clayton: Definitely, there is that nod to the past. I would love to be able to get into that. But we’re very conscious that we are branding ourselves for the masses. Yes, we want the riders to purchase. We want employees. We want fans. Our base is very, very broad. We do ship worldwide. I just shipped to California. Two ordered this week. I ship to New Zealand, England, Australia, Ireland. There is a following for the brand. I will not say it is what I am designing. They want Tbird. It is a nod to 50 years. It is our golden anniversary. 50 years, people crave having Tbird. When you get into the tailored jackets, that is very specific. It has to fit well. A nod to past, as you say, to performance, I think we leave that to the manufacturers who have been doing it so well for so long. We can’t be everything for everyone. My background, my collection, when I graduated, I did a very tailored collection. I really love tailoring. It is, probably, my favourite thing in the world. It would bring the cost up too much, too, Scott. Now, you’re looking at $600/$800 jackets, as a souvenir from Tbird. It is making us too elite, too exclusive. We’re trying to be inclusive.
Jacobsen: Is the attempt to sort of make some of the sport fashionable, but boutique?
Clayton: Yes, we’re told that we’re doing it well, as a brand. The feedback is amazing. I hear from people all over the world. I had a call with someone who was ordering. She said, “I travelled all over the world.” She is an official. So, she is all over with equestrianism. She said, “My favourite things are coming out of Thunderbird.” It is amazing feedback. We are doing something right.
Jacobsen: Tbird does have the international flavour to it. It was part of Major League, recently. It had two 5* events back-to-back in 2022. It is there. It is present on the international stage, certainly, especially in May and August. If this is the 50th year for George and Diane founding Thunderbird, how do you intend, if you do, to give a nod to their heritage with this particular larger business?
Clayton: I don’t want to give too much away. We have a few exciting things. We will be giving a nod to the past in terms of merchandising. The line is under production right now, at the factory. I design the uniforms too, Scott. We’ve added a brand new beautiful logo designed by our team. A nod to 50 years. The only other thing I can say, I’ve got a couple of pieces that were inspired by it being the golden anniversary. 50 being the golden. So, it gives a subtle hint. There might be a touch of gold.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] I could imagine orange turning a bit gold.
Clayton: [Laughing] Yes. Orange is huge to us. That is a thing I should say; that’s a colour. I love orange. Most of us do. Some people, it is not our favourite. What we do, we keep our staff in orange, predominantly. So, when you walk around the Park, you see the orange jacket, the orange sweatshirt, the khaki bottoms. We all wear it, from management down to janitorial. It unifies the team. So, that’s really fun too. So, every employee has that. I try and bring orange tie-ins into the hats or some of the clothing. We’re aware that if we sell an orange jacket and the staff wear orange jackets. It is problematic. People do ask for more orange. But we keep it exclusive to our team. It is our Tbird orange. We’re adding some really great hats this year too. A new hat line, a straw line, from California. It was to have a nod to the 50th anniversary. Our hard goods… it is going to be really, really special.
Jacobsen: Does the business structure for income generation for Tbird clothing differ substantially from other fashion businesses, or is it taking much of a similar line to other fashion businesses? And if it is different, how so?
Clayton: It is the same. You have cost of goods and margins, and sales. So, it is very simple. I have been doing this for 35 years. That is the easy side of it. What is easy and different, how the village erupts during shows that can be thousands of people, they come back 2 or 3 times per day or, at least, every day. That is not a normal situation to even have someone visit your website every day, let alone come into your bricks-and-mortar store. Our sales are accelerated by the sheer volume of people.
Jacobsen: Now, I have heard the retail industry has struggled during Covid, since the beginning of Covid and onward. Does this impact the expected income generation for Tbird clothing, or do you see a compensatory mechanism for more income online, or does having these vendors and this village make this impact null?
Clayton: I know how everyone is doing in vendor row. People want the upscale souvenir. It is not normal. I tell the team, “We have something really special going on.” Because I know what it is like to have a company during recessions and the door not open, but we have people coming and going constantly. We are so grateful. It is so lovely.
Jacobsen: What items tend to be the best sellers?
Clayton: Hats! Hats, hats, hats, and the sweatshirts, pullovers, we sell thousands of hats per year.
Jacobsen: Are those the souvenir items people can take home with them?
Clayton: Yes, it is a price point. You take it home yourself or to your staff back at home, or the barn, whoever looked at your animals while you were away, e.g., dog or cat. We sell thousands of units.
Jacobsen: That’s also true from personal experience. I know a friend who went to Thermal, brought me back a hat from Desert International Horse Park, went back to Montreal, dropped off her cat, got me a Montreal hat. Yes, I mean, it is, definitely, in line with some of the culture; I’ve seen.
Clayton: I can say that about the culture of equestrians. I knew it a little bit. I know it a lot more after 6 years. They are the most generous people I’ve ever met, bar none. I’ve been in sport, in hockey. They come in at the last hour and say, “We’re all loaded up, but we need gifts for this, this, this, and this.” It is phenomenal. We are very conscious of it being a gifting experience too. We want the affordability. I always say, “We are going to be inclusive for everyone.” I want everyone to be able to walk into Tbird clothing and to buy something. So, we need different price levels.
Jacobsen: People have been very hospitable to me, too. It has been the same with the interviews too. They say, “Yes”. Unless, they have too many time conflicts.
Clayton: I think they are generous in every way. I love when the shows are on. I love the family history of the Tidball family. I go back with them. They used to shop at my business for their children.
Jacobsen: That’s so funny.
Clayton: Laura and Brent were customers of mine in the 2000s with their son. It is really neat.
Jacobsen: This is a relevant point too. It is not discussed much in general culture. But I think it is an important point. You have a life outside of your business. You are a mom. You have successful children. They have gone to UBC, and so on. How do you balance making sure your children have standards of excellence for themselves, they achieve, as well as your own business pursuits and ambitions? What is your recipe for balance of those two? What is your recipe for success in both regards?
Clayton: That’s a good question. I know, for sure, I always evaluate a 5-year plan or a set of 5-year plans. After I had my children, as a designer, I was designing bridal gowns. That became complicated when you have three boys who are playful. I said, “This isn’t going to work much longer. I don’t have the time. I am worried where they are stored. I had a studio.” We stopped that. We built a home, a custom home, too. That’s the creative. Then I opened my business, which was open for 13 years. Then there was a break. I think, there are chapters in your life. My priority before coming to Thunderbird was the boys really needing me. They were in critical points of their boarding or education. They needed support and a cheerleader, and my husband as well. I wasn’t bored. I was like, “I need something.” I am thrilled that, in my late 40s, this chapter opened up where I am designing and merchandising, and growing the vendor operations at Thunderbird, working within the team. Also, I am working the factory on production. I am learning new skills, which everyone should want to learn until the day they die. The flexibility, I have flexibility. Family is first. That is universal at Thunderbird. If something comes up with family, that comes first. As much as I love the work, you have to set those priorities.
Jacobsen: Do you find Canadian culture is accepting and flexible compared to the past for working moms?
Clayton: Oh, it’s amazing now. I know lots of people, where having that year off after you have a child and being able to work from home. It’s just phenomenal for moms, and dads. The dads can have parental leave as well. Canada is the envy of the world in that regard.
Jacobsen: When I went to Iceland for an international congress and was running for an international youth organization, I won the election: Hooray. The president of Iceland gave a speech to 30 or 40 of us at the University of Iceland’s lecture hall. He has 5 kids. They have equal maternity and paternity leave. Each time or most of the times, he took that time off to spend with his children. So, I think having that can be helpful to both moms and to dads, and the flexibility can be helpful for couple. I think you’re definitely right about Canada being an envy of the world. Certainly, other countries are on that track or even a little ahead.
Clayton: It is different if you are self-employed. You do not have leave, but you do have flexibility. Creative people, designers, you work really hard. Like right now, I worked hard until Christmas. January is a little lighter. Come March, March to September, it is full throttle. That’s the reality of our business, but that’s okay. I enjoy work. I love what I do. I have been to Iceland too. We stopped there on the way to Germany.
Jacobsen: Oh, nice! How long were you there for?
Clayton: We did the 2-day stop over. We loved the quick flight. The airline was great, Icelandair.
Jacobsen: Yes, Keflavik [Laughing].
Clayton: I loved how efficient it was. They were like, “Sit down, we got your bag, here’s your water.”
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Clayton: Every time, we left; they were ahead of time. When does that ever happen?
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Clayton: I love efficiencies too. I should say that. That is my pet peeve, when things aren’t run efficiently. We stayed at the Ion Adventure Hotel, like from a Bond movie. We were out by a geothermal plant, and it was cantilevered. It was so different, right? I like going to different places. That blew our minds. It felt like you were on another plant.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] My European friends are like, “They’re not European. Even though, they are European.”
Clayton: We were very intrigued. We will go back. Even look at the Icelandic horses, where we stayed at the Ion Adventure Hotel, there was this Icelandic horse on the wall. There were all these nods to horses. And I love horses. That’s the best part of Thunderbird. Pinch me, you see the most exquisite horses every day. People don’t appreciate the natural beauty and those animals. I think that’s a huge gift. It makes me very happy. We’ll go back. We’re going to Europe soon. We will do that stopover soon. Very cool, good music too.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] How do you find the 3*, 4*, 5*, events when international community comes to Thunderbird Show Park and makes purchases? How do you find that clientele different from the more local clientele?
Clayton: I don’t want to offend anyone. I don’t know if you can say that. You know. They are millionaires and billionaires. I wouldn’t say that I buy for them. I do go off to market when I do the high-end buying. I am at a point now, Scott, where I can think of specific clients. They phone me, directly. It’s something I pride myself in; I know this specific person would like this, including Jane. I would, probably, have her in mind when I buy the higher-end ladies’ lines, for sure. I think of Christopher Pack (President, formerly COO, of Thunderbird Show Park) when I am buying the men’s. It’s nice when you buy or design to think of specific people and what would please them. Let’s just say, they are very generous people.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] When you get these calls, how do you maintain a long-term rapport, speaking of 6 years at Thunderbird, with these high-end clientele important for the upper echelon of purchases?
Clayton: I don’t discriminate and want to keep them as clientele. The person who bought the $24 hat is just as important to us. The team that works with me. I make sure that we remember something about someone. Be it, ultimately, their name or where they are from, how long they have been here; we have the luxury: They’re with us for 3 weeks, Scott, at least 2 weeks. So, if you don’t start to glean stuff about them and get that rapport, that is so unique. We do remember, but also build the database and get their client information. To be honest, we become friends with them. They invite us down to Desert Horse Park. We get standing invites to join them. It is pretty special. It’s great service too. It will make us memorable to them. It is not just the item. We have to deliver great personal service.
Jacobsen: What is your philosophy on customer service?
Clayton: It is paramount. You know that. I will deliver it.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] That is true!
Clayton: Whatever we can do to go above and beyond, to exceed expectations.
Jacobsen: What would you think of as a next area of expansion or of the clothing line?
Clayton: Rainwear.
Jacobsen: That is such a good idea.
Clayton: It is in the works. I’m looking at textiles right now. We are, probably, a year off.
Jacobsen: Have you teamed with any other businesses in your time there?
Clayton: At Thunderbird?
Jacobsen: Yes, so, working with another distributor to keep the Tbird logo and title while having some other expertise to bring about a new item.
Clayton: No, I must be control freak, hey?
Jacobsen: [Laughing] That’s fine.
Clayton: It happens organically. We have Kingsley Footwear. She’s got beautiful custom footwear. She brings in Canadian logos, Tbird orange colours. We have to be mindful. As vendor relations, I don’t want to step on people’s toes that do blazers really well, footwear really well. We are not going to ever be – and we have had meetings about this – all things to all people. We are going to respect other areas of the park that have their expertise.
Jacobsen: Where do you find the most difficult area of balancing? I do not mean work-life balance mentioned before. I mean balance between other businesses, clientele, keeping the business running. It is a very large ensemble, a very large dance, to keep going.
Clayton: Like I said, I want everyone to be succeeding in our vendor row. It is diverse. So, everyone has their niche. So, we set them up for success and we support each other. We are, definitely, becoming a community there. Where, through our social platforms, we will promote each others’ things. Someone will say, “Do you have a saddle pad?” “No, we don’t, but you can go a few doors down. And they do.” Of course, we are proprietary on branding. It is important. But there is room for everyone, I believe. The other thing is, it is making sure we also manage expectations. I said, “Exceed.” We have people say, “You have saddle pads. You should have tack. You should have this and that.” You listen. Feedback is amazing. We want to make sure that we’re not doing too much. That we do what we do very well. To me, sometimes, businesses grow too quickly. Right now, we are managing growth. I think we have to manage it very closely.
Jacobsen: Do other venues, such as the largest in the country, e.g., Thunderbird is one and Spruce Meadows is another, or large equestrian event centres or show parks, have similar businesses in theirs, or is this more unique to Thunderbird Show Park?
Clayton: It is unique to us. A dedicated village is quite unique. We have beautiful, handcrafted cabins. We are adding two. So, there’ll be two brand new cabins; that we’re taking delivery of and constructing in the next few months. I spearheaded an expansion. We’re going to have a guest cabin experience. I feel like it will cater to artisan vendors who can guest with us for a week. We can ensure a way of having fresh vendors rather than a year-long lease. It is very exciting. That is happening this year as well.
Jacobsen: Do you remember in downtown Reykjavik the stone buildings? Everything, everything, is boutique. It has 120,000 people or more, which isn’t many people for a capital city. Yet, it manages to keep a boutique appeal to it.
Clayton: I love that.
Jacobsen: That’s the sense I get from attending the village and making purchases.
Clayton: That’s awesome. That’s what we’re going for. We don’t want it to feel commercial in any way. We want it to feel exclusive and unique. We are trying to keep a bit of country charm too. We don’t want to be a bit too chic. We are in the country and are a family business. We want to keep the charm. We are very conscious of that.
Jacobsen: What are those two other expansions, by the way?
Clayton: We are having Debra Garside, who is an acclaimed photography artist, amazing. You can look her up. We will have a full gallery, which is just amazing. I love bringing an artistic side. She has popped up with us over the years. Then this guest cabin and a concierge, a dedicated Thunderbird concierge. We will keep the guest of the guest cabin a secret until the debut. We will, probably, have 8 guest vendors.
Jacobsen: I’ve had 15 months in the industry. You’ve had 6 years. How would you describe equestrians, in particular show jumpers?
Clayton: I think they’re focused, dedicated, adventurous.
Jacobsen: At the end of the day, it is all down to the horse for them.
Clayton: Yes, all of them.
Jacobsen: Just based on osmosis, they, constantly, talk about the horse not just as a horse, but as a partner.
Clayton: I’ve made so many friends now. I’ll see them have a great ride. I just saw what they did to get that horse to jump. My friend from Mexico. She is tiny. She is on this massive horse. She is my age. I think she is so delicate with her reining. She is delicate, but she made it go clear. I’ll say, “Wow, that was an amazing ride.” She’s like, “Oh, it was the horse.” Right away, they shut it down. I agree with you. For them, it is all about the horse. They (the rider) are the accessory. They are trained to be humble about it, and the respect for the animal. When you come to Thunderbird Show Park and see the beginner jumpers and see the international pros, the 5*, the Major League, the Grand Prix Longines, you see people fall off horses, get thrown. It is not just easy. They make it look incredibly easy. Some are in their 30s, 40s, 50s. It is time spent and dedication to the sport. But the reason I use “adventurous”, don’t you think jumping over high obstacles is adventurous and brave? We’ll see people hurt and then back there the next day.
Jacobsen: There are tons of stories of people with broken wrists, broken fingers.
Clayton: No big deal.
Jacobsen: Yes [Laughing].
Clayton: Yes, I have such a respect for the horse. It is so incredible and valuable to young people to do a sport that requires you to care for an animal at the same time. It is amazing.
Bibliography
Harris, A. (2022, November 23). Equestrian style: The enduring allure of the ‘horse girl’ esthetic. Vancouver Sun. https://vancouversun.com/life/fashion-beauty/equestrian-style-the-enduring-allure-of-the-horse-girl-esthetic
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 37: Deborah Clayton on Equestrian Fashion and a Respect for Show Jumping (1). January 2023; 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-1
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2023, January 8). The Greenhorn Chronicles 37: Deborah Clayton on Equestrian Fashion and a Respect for Show Jumping (1). In-Sight Publishing. 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-1.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 37: Deborah Clayton on Equestrian Fashion and a Respect for Show Jumping (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 2, 2023.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2023. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 37: Deborah Clayton on Equestrian Fashion and a Respect for Show Jumping (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (Spring). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-1.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 37: Deborah Clayton on Equestrian Fashion and a Respect for Show Jumping (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (January 2023). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-1.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2023) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 37: Deborah Clayton on Equestrian Fashion and a Respect for Show Jumping (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(2). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-1>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2023, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 37: Deborah Clayton on Equestrian Fashion and a Respect for Show Jumping (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 2, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-1>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 37: Deborah Clayton on Equestrian Fashion and a Respect for Show Jumping (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 2, 2023, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-1.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 37: Deborah Clayton on Equestrian Fashion and a Respect for Show Jumping (1) [Internet]. 2023 Jan; 11(2). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/clayton-1
License
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/01/08
*Interview conducted December 13, 2022.*
Abstract
Hyde Moffatt, according to Starting Gate Communications, can be described as follows: “Andrew Hyde Moffatt had an unusual introduction to horses. When he was five years old, a girl at school brought in her horse for show-and-tell and Hyde was hooked! His top horse is Ting Tin, a son of the well-known sire Chin Chin, purchased in Belgium as a six-year-old. Hyde describes Ting Tin as a brave, intelligent and energetic horse who loves to play with people, but gets bored easily. Starting their Grand Prix career together in 2004, Hyde and Ting Tin have steadily improved with each outing, enjoying top ten finishes at several of the biggest horse shows in Canada including the Capital Classic Show Jumping Tournament, the Collingwood Horse Show, Tournament of Champions, and the Royal Agricultural Winter Fair. When he is not showing in the Grand Prix ring, Hyde competes with several horses in the Young Horse Development Series including Baron, who was crowned the 2006 Ontario Six-Year-Old Champion. In addition to his equestrian pursuits, Hyde also enjoys running. Although he is currently a middle distance runner at 10 to 15 km, he would like to work towards doing his first marathon.” Moffatt discusses: Canada produces some of the best women riders in the world; only 90 riders listed; most significant career win; injuries; a love of horses; and grit.
Keywords: 1.60m, Canada, CSIO, Erynn Ballard, Hyde Moffatt, Longines, Mac Cone, Nations Cup, oxer, rider, show jumping, Wellington.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 36: Hyde Moffatt on the Meaning of Success (2)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: One thing I noticed that is relatively distinct in Canada. I haven’t done a systematic review of this, yet. Although, preliminarily, Canada produces some of the best women riders in the world.
Hyde Moffatt: Because we’re tough.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Moffatt: I, actually, think that is the answer. I think it is because we’re tough. Maybe, that Canadian mentality that we’re always a little bit of an underdog. It is always a little bit harder. I do think it is because we’re tough.
Jacobsen: When I went through the Longines rankings for Canada, there were only 90 riders listed. This has been a very consistent thing in conversing with people. Everyone knows everyone or, at least, knows of everyone, it is a small world. Is it the frequency of the travel, being at the events for several days, seeing the names? Things of this nature.
Moffatt: Yes, there are only so many events in which ranking points are available. Invariably, you end up running into everyone from your country somewhere along the line. Certainly, we do become familiar. Those shows, there are only 50 or 60 riders at some of the bigger shows. You might have 90 riders down in Wellington, but you are not talking about a group that is hard to keep track of. We definitely know each other.
Jacobsen: What would you consider your most significant career win, so far?
Moffatt: Jeez, that’s a good question. Honestly, I try not to quantify things with the wins. A lot of the wins that you end up with, from a non-competitive standpoint, are from learning and discovering on the journey to the wins in the ring; I think that that time that you struggle with teaching a horse something and, suddenly, feel all the parts come together. That is the kind of win that I do this for. I still remember jumping in Wellington. It was the first time I jumped a big CSIO. Nations Cup week down there. I was on a very green horse. They filled this course of jumps, still when Wellington had a grass field. There was a line. You jumped a vertical over the open water. It was unique in and of itself. You don’t see that anymore. You did a number of strides. Then there was a vertical at 1.60m. Then there were 3 and a half strides. I don’t know how else to say it. It was too long for 4 and too short for 3 into a huge oxer. One of the biggest jumps I had ever jumped in the ring in my life at that point.
I know how in theory how I am going to get this done. I am going to need to jump the vertical over the water with some rhythm. I am going to have to balance and curl over the vertical and land and make room in the 4 strides and put my leg up. In my head, I thought, “Is this even possible?” I went so late in the class. I got to sit and watch. This is before we were as limited in the number of courses that you could ride in, or the number of entries in the grand prix. I am watching these horses go. You see them do it. “Well, I know my plan. They seem to have the same plan. I am going to do that.” I did it. When I got it done and put my leg on, and the horse jumped across the oxer, I remember being in the air, to this day, thinking, “I learned something.” Because, theoretically, you knew it was possible, but you never felt it. All of the sudden, you felt it. You’re like, “Man, horses can do things I did not know they can even do.” It is wins like that that stick out rather than the actual win. For me, the win is the reward that comes at the end. But it is the journey that is, maybe, more important.
Jacobsen: As you were noting or alluding to earlier, injuries are a major part of risk in the sport. It is one of the myths, for those looking outside of the industry, which is, probably, similar to cheerleading. Where cheerleading has an extraordinarily high injury rate, same with show jumping. It has this reputation of being a gallivanting, gentle sport. It can be graceful when done at a really high level, as yourself, but it’s extremely dangerous. Have there been deaths on competition grounds before?
Moffatt: Absolutely, by statistics, it is one of the most dangerous sports in the world. Concussion rates as high or higher than the NFL because you are always falling from speed. There is serious risk of spinal cord injuries, paralysis and death from that as well – for the same reasons. Not to mention, you are on something that weighs 1,200 lbs. and can, sometimes, fall down. Sometimes, when it falls down, it can fall on top of you. Yes, there have, definitely, been some terrible accidents and have been some deaths. Personally, I know a number of people who have had that happen to them. Both who have died and who have suffered lifechanging injury. We do not do this without risk. It is best to always remind ourselves of that.
Jacobsen: Back in January (2022), Erynn Ballard cautioned me. She said something to the effect, ‘If you are going to do this series, you have to have a love for horses, or you have to develop that, because, if you don’t, then you won’t understand where these riders and trainers, and so on, are coming from.’ After about 14 months into it now, I completely understand what she is getting at now. The riders are here for the sport, to compete. They have competitive blood. However, at the end of the day, they are here for just a love of horses.
Moffatt: If it was for a love of anything else, it is not worth doing. The number of overtime hours, the amount of work you put into this; you’d be better to work McDonald’s or retail. Because, by the time you average out what we make hourly, it is, probably, not a great decision from a financial point of view.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Moffatt: It becomes a lifestyle. It is the way we live. It’s what we do; it’s who we are. All of it is centered around the horses. Certainly, I hope anyone pursuing this as a career is in it because of a love of horses. Because if you love the horses, then you will still like this on a bad day. You will always lose more classes than you win. It doesn’t how good or are or how good you get. If you are only liking it when you’re winning, then it is the wrong sport and the wrong career for you. If you love the horses and like doing things with the horses, then it becomes the right career.
Jacobsen: As things have developed over the last 50 years, individuals in the prior generations had a sport, show jumping, that was not necessarily quite figured out. Mac Cone recalls, basically, in Tennessee building jumps out of random boards and branches in his backyard!
Moffatt: [Laughing].
Jacobsen: The horse was bought for his sister. He ended up seeing her jumping. He said, “I want to jump 4’ with that thing.” So, he set a goal with these home-made jumps to get this thing jumping 4’. He succeeded. But he said, “It was stupid. It was dangerous.” But he didn’t know any better. Those things mark, in my mind, a much more rough-and-tumble, trial-and-error era of show jumping. When I am talking to people in the modern period, more aspects of it are figured out: How to ride properly, how to have proper form, how to develop a horse along, where to get your horses, what kind of horses to have. On the one hand, things are a lot more figured out. So, there is a lot less trial-and-error to do. Yet, there are other things to figure out. However, if you are looking at those trends over time, which again takes many, many decades, do you think that the loss of that trial-and-error can create softening of younger individuals who are coming into the sport to not have the continual battering with reality to really get that grit, so they can become those next great riders?
Moffatt: Absolutely, I think the struggle is necessary. I think that we are a product of our experiences. Those struggles that, sometimes, can be viewed as negative because they are hard, are difficult, are hard work. They hurt. Whatever the case may be, those struggles are what makes people, what makes individuals. I think that some hardship is necessary in order to achieve success. If it all comes for nothing, it comes with no work, no hardship, no discomfort, then did you really, truly get the experience? Did you really win it? I think that those things are what make you appreciate what you do have and do achieve. I, definitely, think that we have to allow people to make mistakes. We have to allow people to think their way through things, sometimes. I think that it is fantastic what previous generations have done in terms of being able to figure these things out. I am not saying necessarily that we have to take steps back. I think people need to not be afraid of failing, making mistakes. It is through failure that we get better.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 36: Hyde Moffatt on the Meaning of Success (2). January 2023; 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-2
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2023, January 8). The Greenhorn Chronicles 36: Hyde Moffatt on the Meaning of Success (2). In-Sight Publishing. 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-2.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 36: Hyde Moffatt on the Meaning of Success (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 2, 2023.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2023. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 36: Hyde Moffatt on the Meaning of Success (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (Spring). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-2.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 36: Hyde Moffatt on the Meaning of Success (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (January 2023). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-2.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2023) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 36: Hyde Moffatt on the Meaning of Success (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(2). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-2>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2023, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 36: Hyde Moffatt on the Meaning of Success (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 2, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-2>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 36: Hyde Moffatt on the Meaning of Success (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 2, 2023, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-2.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 36: Hyde Moffatt on the Meaning of Success (2) [Internet]. 2023 Jan; 11(2). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-2
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/01/01
*Interview conducted January 2, 2022.*
Abstract
Cindy Waslewsky went to Stanford University and competed on the Varsity Gymnastics and Ski Teams. She earned a B.A. in Human Biology in 1982. She earned a Diploma in Christian Studies at Regent College in Vancouver, and a BC teachers’ certification from the University of British Columbia in 1984. She was the President of the Squamish Valley Equestrian Association. She is a certified English and Western coach. Waslewsky is co-owner of Twin Creeks Ranch. Waslewsky discusses: common human made problems; approximate mental age of an adult horse; different breeds of horse; the Canadian landscape of horses; operational business; standard procedure in the industry; the council in the township of Langley; particular bylaws; and industry as a whole in the Lower Mainland.
Keywords: adrenaline, Bold Ruler, breed, Canadian, Cindy Waslewsky, dressage, eventing, furlong, horse, hunting, iPhone, jumping, maturity, mental age, reiners, riders, Samsung, Secretariat, Western pleasure.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 35: Cindy Waslewsky on the Equestrian Industry and Breeds (2)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are some of those common human made problems?
Cindy Waslewsky: Okay. A simple one; people throw their saddles on their horse and then they tighten up their girth for English, or a cinch for Western, and they’re worried about the saddle sliding. So they do it nice and tight and the horse starts to get what they say ‘girthy’ or ‘cinchy’; you’ll see people bring their saddles on the horse and the horse’s ears go back. They even make aggressive gestures toward the rider as they’re tightening up the girth and that is created by people when they tighten the girth too much. Otherwise, you put a saddle on. You snipe it up just a little bit to hold the saddle on. You finish picking hooks or whatever. You lock them into the arena, then you tighten it again, then mild, then tighten it again. So, in other words, you don’t just suddenly sort of squeeze them tight because they learn to tighten the muscles in their sternum enough to split across their right behind the front legs. They can tighten those muscles to expand, so that you go and now the girth is really loose. So, they learn to do that. However, they are called girthy or cinchy; meaning, they get crabby, cranky, and can get aggressive when people are tightening up the girth or cinch. And that’s created by people doing it too hard or too fast instead of gently tightening it as they get ready to ride like put the saddle on, snug it, then go and tighten it up just a hole and then maybe one more hole later, so it’s not just all being put on at the same time. That’s just one example.
Other examples are, I was teaching a student today that when you’re turning the horse. Horses are followers, so you’re the leader. You are in charge. I use the example with students that it’s like their substitute teacher walking into a grade 7 classroom. You have about 30 seconds to take charge and be fair, firm, and be the leader. Tell that horse just like you would a student what is acceptable behavior; like, you can’t swear to teacher. You can’t make comments to other people. Soon, you have spit wads on the ceiling in a classroom and the same with the horse. If you don’t right away say it’s time to report now: Ask, tell, demand, get going forward, do it firmly, have tools and techniques to make sure the horse is doing what you need it to do without being cruel and understanding horse cognition, which is, again, a new thing along with these trials and studies being a little delayed from horses when you compare it to other livestock that we often eat, right? Then you look at horse cognition. Studies are now coming out where they get in a PhD on learning, which manure pile does the horse sniff first. Believe it or not, they sniff their own first. Then they sniff the dominant horse next. How many seconds does it take for a horse to change from fear to inquisitive behavior because horses have the largest amygdala of any domesticated animal, in other words, amygdala processes fear. The most fear-based domesticated animal that we deal with is a horse, and we ride it.
So, what we have to constantly think about is when something scares or concerns that horse, they typically need 12 to 15 seconds to switch from fear to inquisitive. Let’s say they go by a tarp, and you start whacking on them to get closer to that tarp; I would question that. I would say I’ve changed how I ride, so if my horse is like bulging off the wall, I might go back to that spot and stop them and wait those 12 to 15 seconds. You will see horses drop their head, lick and chew, relax and stretch the nose out to whatever’s concerning them specific just to kind of investigate. They poke it with their nose. When they’re relaxed, I carry on, and then when I come back to that spot in their trail. I’ve already given my horse a chance to relax instead of beating them past it and making it a higher anxiety location. The other thing or techniques such as you’re coming to some spook zone in the arena where they tend to suddenly bolt away. For example, I was on a trail ride. There was a dog that looked like a bear, so the horse I was on had got just past the dog and scored ahead trying to get away from the dog. So, I asked the owner and if I could just go by there a couple of times. So, as I started to pass the dog; just when I started to pass, I stopped my horse and I waited. How long? 12 to 15 seconds, my horse relaxed with that dog and then walked on. So, the flight zone is right as they’re leaving the object they’re fearful of.
You might be leading horses out to paddocks. You’re going to be handling some of these horses and when they’re excited or hot, if you have fast feet for a long time equals fear for a horse. So, if you can slow their feet down, relax yourself, and slow your heart rate because horses’ heart rates match ours. When they put heartbeat monitors on horses and riders, they match each other. It’s interesting. So, we kind of have to relax ourselves to be the herd leader, but, if we get nervous, they don’t think we’re nervous with them. They think we’re nervous about something in our environment. And we need to let them know there’s nothing in the environment needs to concern you. But if we express fear of our horse, that’s going to translate to the horse that my rider who is my herd leader is concerned about something around us right now, so I better be worried too.
And they’ll do things like you can scratch the wither of your horse and their heart rate lowers and they did that with heart rate monitors. So if I’m going to reward my horse, I don’t slap the neck like how they pat horses on the neck and sort of slap them on the neck. That’s not much of a reward in the horse’s mind. But if you scratch or itch or massage the wither just like horses mutually groom each other, their heart rate actually slows. So, you would go lead a horse. You go to catch them. You scratch their wither. It’ll also lower their head a little bit, which is another long-necked animal. When a giraffe lowers its head, then the heart rate lowers; otherwise, you get head rush. Head goes up and it has to increase its heart rate. And so, a horse is the same, so when we lower their poll. That’s the area between their ears, to the same height or lower than their wither, then their heart rate autonomically slows. They don’t control that. It’s autonomic. So, as you lower a horse’s head, you’re actually relaxing them and lowering their heart rate and keep getting them to be a little calmer for leading out on a windy day or something. These are things people are just getting into now. The horse has been viewed a little bit like a motorcycle to get on a ride, but, now, we know for our own safety and for a humane treatment of the horse; we need to learn more about horse cognition. We need to do a little better.
Jacobsen: What is the approximate mental age of an adult horse?
Cindy: In terms of comparing to people, if you multiply a horse’s age by three, that’s going to give you an idea of maturity. In other words, a one-year-old horse is like a three-year-old. A two-year-old horse is typically like a six-year-old child. So, in terms of reasoning and training and teaching, they can start to link things up on conditions to what we use with horse training. I have a horse here that is 30 years old, that’s like a 90-year-old. She still did lessons. If she wasn’t doing that, she probably would really seize up. So, arthritis and everything would just really bother her. So in terms of mental maturity, I sort of try to link it to a human age, so that we can think what this horse can do physiologically and what is a fair workload for a 20 year old horse. And I think I’m 61, I can do just about anything back home, I can ride a horse. I can hike tough mountains with stuff if I stay in shape, but there are other 61 year olds that aren’t in as good a shape or if they’ve had some injury that really impedes them. So, if I look at a 20-year-old horse, and if it’s a healthy 20-year-old horse, they can still do they can still do some like jumping, they can do dressage, they can do lots of trail rides, they can work well, and they have maturity. They’ve got some experience. They’re a reliable horse, probably a safer horse for most people. They may have had a variety of exposure to different situations. But if you have a three-year-old horse, that’s like a nine-year-old. They’re kind of still learning a lot of things are still new to them… “Oh! What’s that? Oh, that’s a dog! Oh, that’s a plastic bag!” or “Oh, that’s a different horse trailer than the last one I got in” or “I’m going on a trail!” “What’s that big block?” So, you really expect to have to explore different things in a very calm and relaxed way.
Jacobsen: It gives a comparative answer to human beings to give an idea about the maturity and the ability to think of horses themselves.
Cindy: And what kind of physical demands you can make on them too.
Jacobsen: Absolutely.
Cindy: So, even as they age, you don’t want to just throw them out to pasture. That’s actually not a good retirement for a lot of these horses.
Jacobsen: How do different breeds of horse deal with different types of professional performance, whether dressage, hunting, jumping, or eventing?
Cindy: They’re all different even within a breed you will see different horses that are well suited conformationally to certain things. As a former gymnast, I would say I look at a body type, fast twitch muscles and flexibility. And then there’s a mental ability to do things. Some of my gymnasts were very timid and others were very bold. Some have a need for a little bit of adrenaline. Some are very driven. Some were not. You see that in horses as well. So, we didn’t breed just to generalize. You’ve got the quarter horse, which was named the quarter horse because it excelled in the quarter mile. It’s a sprinter. If you imagine human sprinters with big glutes and very strong muscle, quarter horses have very strong hind ends. They can sprint well. They can run fast, but for short periods of time and they keep their muscle tone. Let’s say they don’t get worked really well or they didn’t get ridden for a little while, they’ll keep their muscle tone better than a thoroughbred would. They tend to keep their weight on a little better.
So, you have the quarter horse. The mind was bred for cattle work and trails. So, you see them in the Western world. Everything from reining, working cow, cutting, western pleasure, trail classes where you go over all kinds of obstacles that could really freak out some horses. They learn to go over rivers, over bridges. They do teeter-totter bridges and all kinds of things that these horses have been known to do very well. They make a great all-around horse. Now, their neck ties in conformationally within the quarter horses. You would see different quarter horses and some are more capable of certain jobs. Some of the reiners are very able to collect themselves, meaning to lift their backs up kind of like doing a pelvic tilt and squat on their back legs a little bit. That’s what I would say I collected. If the horse is actually squatting on the back legs a little bit and lifting their back, lifting their wither, and stretching and telescoping the neck out, they’re not just bringing a chin into their chest. That’s a misunderstanding of what collection is.
So, when you compress these horses as compressing them like a spring and creating them with more energy and more athleticism, you’re also increasing the longevity of a horse being able to be worked because their musculature and the skeletal system is better designed for pulling a sled, pulling a plow. That kind of thing more than carrying a rider on its back. So, that’s why you’ll see all the disciplines of looking at collecting horses or compressing their body and lifting up their backs because then they will last longer and their gaits are better and are more athletic and more able to do everything. So, a quarter horse can turn on cows, a quarter horse can jump, a quarter horse can do some dressage. Do you really want to do the higher end dressage? You start looking for a horse that has a longer stride length and shoulder and then you look at thoroughbred, which was designed or bred to do the furlong or the mile. So, think of your distance runners, the long legs, the leaner build, they can really reach out. They have a long stride. Thoroughbreds have bigger lung capacity, so you see them in cross-country jumping a lot because they have to have the stamina for that. So, they have what they call their lung capacity and their nostrils are actually able to flare open wider than the quarter horse. They’re elongated and can open up. Equine dentists will say it’s easier to do the teeth of a thoroughbred because when you open their mouth there will be a bigger throat to work on their teeth because they have to suck the oxygen in to really do that at high speeds. And so, you have your thoroughbred.
Now, they’re called as a more hot-blooded horse. It’s a little more thin skin, the flies bother them a little more, could be a little spookier, and a little more temperamental. They are not quite as hardy a horse, not an easy keeper; meaning, they need more feed to keep their weight on. If you don’t use them consistently, they start to lose their muscle tone, especially along their back. Their topline we call it. And then what you can do is, you can breed a draft horse, which is great. Calmer horses that we use for usually pulling wagons and people do ride drops, but they’re a little bit wide for most people, especially women’s hips. They’re pretty big. But you can put a draft horse and say, “Oh, they’re so calm and good natured.” Ad then we have the thoroughbred, that’s so athletic, but a little bit slidy. So, let’s put them together. We have a cold-blooded draft and a hot-blooded thoroughbred. Most of the times, it’s one-quarter draft, three quarters thoroughbred. You get this lovely horse that’s usually a little calmer, still athletic, good muscle tone, and has that reach, the long stride of the thoroughbred to do some very nice dressage movement. It can also do some good jumping as well. So, you’ll see a lot of people pivoting to these warmbloods, who go into all kinds of various warmbloods.
It’s just a blend of the horses, and then you have the Arabs, which are small originally from, of course, Arabia. They have a little point to their ear, very pretty head, somewhat smaller. They have one vertebra less. So I think they’re very difficult to ride in a very collected frame. They would not be my favorite. For endurance riding, you can’t get a better horse for an endurance ride – small, hearty horses. And people who love Arabs love Arabs. They jump Arabs. They do pleasure. They do Wester. They do English. There are specialized Arab shows just as there are specialized paint shows. Paint is a color, but it’s actually a breed. So, you can say pinto for a color and paint is breed. So pinto is a color that you could have on a warm blood or something. But either you have paint; it’s a specific breed that has thoroughbred in it, quarter horse crossed with the thoroughbred. So, you can have a quarter horse thoroughbred cross. Great combination because you have the calmer mind of the quarter horse with more muscle tone of the muscly quarter horse, and then you put it with the thoroughbred. So, what other breed have you come across that you’re curious about?
Jacobsen: Well, I’d be curious about the Canadian landscape of horses as well in that regard. I mean, what breed of horse do Canadians work with the most, the riders, generally?
Cindy: It depends on what discipline you want to be in. We’re unusual in the barn that we have Western and English together in one barn. Usually, as you’ve seen, there are a hundred jumpers, then there’ll be Western. And they’re all divided up. Now, these ones in an Arab barn just do Arab shows and there’s paint here. This one’s just a Western pleasure and some trainers specialize in just one area. That’s, typically, because it’s a big spectrum. There’s a lot of time to think of another analogy. It’s hard to think of something that splits up as much as this does. Because when you think of horseback riding, you think of it as being, “Oh, you’re right. One rider can talk to another rider”, but there are so many different disciplines for riding, and so the horse excels at different disciplines. Some horses can cross over to be a nice all-around horse, which a family might purchase. So, I see a lot of people buying quarter horses because of their temperament, which is great for younger people to get into; fairly safe and yet they can still do all these different things.
Now, conformationally, their neck ties in a little lower, so they’re not perfect for jumping. The thoroughbreds will be able to out jump a quarter horse, typically. Yet, it depends on the build. I have two thoroughbreds. They’re built differently. One thoroughbred is “very upright”. I’ll call it. The other one’s built a little bit downhill if that makes sense. So, one’s kind of more laid back. That one’s a Secretariat lineage – Bold Ruler, really good lineage for racing, but he never won a race. He just laid back. He’s great; perfect for me for lessons. The other one won his races, but had a bowed tendon, so even as thoroughbreds go, these two are built differently because their confirmation was a little bit different, you ride them just a little differently. So even as riders switch from one horse to another, like people like to own their own horses, but you actually gain a lot of experience riding different horses. Do you have an iPhone or a Samsung?
Jacobsen: I have an iPhone.
Cindy: So, what if I say, “You know your iPhone well.” You’re good with the iPhone. I’m going to give you a Samsung. You know that Samsung is able to do all the same things your iPhone can do, but the buttons are in slightly different places. It’s a little frustrating. It doesn’t build your confidence. But if you’re ready to take on the challenge, and if you learn that Samsung, you now know cell phone’s better. You can do an iPhone; you can do Samsung. Now, you’re pretty conversant with your phone because you know both of them. My daughter who was a business major did that. She turned on both phones. She had a Mac and a PC because she needed to be conversant. She knew some programs are better one than the other. She wanted to be conversant with both because you never know what office system they’re going to be using. So, just saying, that horses vary even within the breeds. I have a quarter horse at 16.1. That’s on the bigger end of a quarter horse. She’s very nice for lessons. And then I have another one that’s 15.1, quite a bit smaller. They’re very different too. They teach my students different things because they’re good at different things. The one has a really good stop. He does this, does that. He can do some small jumps, but he’s never going to be a great jumper. But he can do some really good Western turn backs and maneuvers, but he’s a good all-around horse. Then when I get to my thoroughbred, they’re more specialized. They can do jumping. They can do some dressage, and then I do take them out on trails. They’re a little bit more lookie-loo at things on the trails, but the quarter horses are more relaxed on the trails. We put them in the front of the trail and thoroughbreds follow them. So, those are breed things, but within a breed; you’ll see variation.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 35: Cindy Waslewsky on the Equestrian Industry and Breeds (2). January 2023; 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-2
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2023, January 1). The Greenhorn Chronicles 35: Cindy Waslewsky on the Equestrian Industry and Breeds (2). In-Sight Publishing. 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-2.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 35: Cindy Waslewsky on the Equestrian Industry and Breeds (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 2, 2023.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2023. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 35: Cindy Waslewsky on the Equestrian Industry and Breeds (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (Spring). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-2.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 35: Cindy Waslewsky on the Equestrian Industry and Breeds (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (January 2023). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-2.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2023) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 35: Cindy Waslewsky on the Equestrian Industry and Breeds (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(2). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-2>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2023, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 35: Cindy Waslewsky on the Equestrian Industry and Breeds (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 2, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-2>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 35: Cindy Waslewsky on the Equestrian Industry and Breeds (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 2, 2023, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-2.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 35: Cindy Waslewsky on the Equestrian Industry and Breeds (2) [Internet]. 2023 Jan; 11(2). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/waslewsky-2
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/01/01
*Interview conducted December 26, 2022.*
Abstract
Laura Jane “L.J.” Tidball has been the Manager of Thunderbird Show Stables, an elite hunter and jumper facility, for 20 years. She is a shareholder and contributing partner to Thunderbird Show Park, which has been voted in the top 3 equestrian show facilities in North America. For Show Park, she has been important in advising on top level equine footing, site development plans for capital improvement, and competitor scheduling for National and FEI competitions. She has been competing at the Grand Prix level since 16-years-old. Since winning the Equine Canada medal (1994) and competing on the British Columbia Young Riders’ team (1996), L.J. pursued equestrianism as a career with a fervent passion. Tidball shows multiple mounts of Thunderbird Show Stables and its clients in the hunter and the jumper rings. Through work from the pony hunters onwards with the assistance of Olympian Laura Balisky and Laura’s husband, Brent, L.J. has achieved many years of success in equitation, and the hunters and the jumpers. In 2005, she returned from a successful European tour to operate Thunderbird on a professional basis. She has been awarded the 2014 Leading BCHJA 2014 rider in the FEI World Cup West Coast League Rankings and the 2014 BCHJA Leading Trainer of the Year. In her spare time, her hobbies include baking, skiing, and snowboarding. Tidball discusses: becoming interested in horses and developing a skill set as a show jumper; aunt Laura; intrinsic motivation for the sport; partnership with the horse; independent thought of horses; work ethic; differentiating factors; the safety of the sport; difficult accommodations; a skilled rider or a more naturally gifted horse; Laura the coach; the use of video technology; great women riders; the gender neutrality of the sport and the longevity of the sport; the best in show jumping; the Horse Capital of British Columbia; the industry; greatest improvement in riding skill and style; Florida immersion; and dreams.
Keywords: Beth Underhill, Brent Balisky, Canada, Concetto Son, Denmark, Diane Tidball, Erynn Ballard, George Tidball, Grand Prix, Horse Capital of British Columbia, Ian Millar, Jane Tidball, L.J. Tidball, Langley, Laura Balisky, Milton Friedman, Olympics, Pan-American Games, Queen’s Cup, Sean Jobin, Thunderbird Show Park, Thunderbird Show Stables, World Cup Finals.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 34: L.J. Tidball on Growth as a Show Jumper, George and Diane Tidball, and Show Jumping (1)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, this is an interview with L.J. Tidball from Thunderbird Show Stables. Let’s start from the beginning. What were some of the earlier moments in becoming interested in horses and developing a skill set as a show jumper?
L.J. Tidball: I would say my earliest moments of spending time with horses would have been going all the way back to the lead lines that my grandfather used to take me in. I had a pony named snowball. I used to wear my first set of tall boots and riding hat and show jacket, it was a big deal to have my grandfather lead me out in the lead line class. It is, probably, one of my earlier memories. I was 3 or 4 years old. From there, I grew up watching my aunt Laura Balisky show and compete for everything from the Olympics to the Pan-American Games to the World Cup Finals. I grew up with stars in my eyes with that being my ultimate goal. I went to bed as a 5-year-old dreaming of having a red show jacket. I, definitely, have pursued this as a career from a very young age. I was lucky enough to be able to take my childhood dream and bring it to fruition, which, I think, is rare. I appreciate the opportunities I have had to get to where I am.
Jacobsen: Was there any advice that your aunt Laura gave while you were developing your earlier skill sets?
Tidball: I think, they were very open to the idea that I would do whatever I was going to do with riding. My mom was a downhill ski racer. She always encouraged me to follow my path. She wrote me a letter in Grade 12 saying, “You have to follow and do what you believe is the most important, follow your dreams, and don’t give up.” Laura and Brent supported and encouraged me, but they let it be my own drive. They didn’t say, “You need to do this, this, and this, to get there.” They gave me the tools and expected me to find my own drive and my own will to get to where I wanted to be, which allows you to find your own path. If people are dictating it for you, I don’t think you find the path as easily.
Jacobsen: What do you mark as the intrinsic motivation for the sport for you?
Tidball: Honestly, when I get into it, I love being around animals. I love being close to the horses. The partnership that you have with your horse, when you come to an enormous jump is an incredible feeling. It is an adrenaline high, but it is a partnership at the same time. You are combining finesse, feel, and kindness, with adrenaline and a fierce competitive nature. It is such a unique set of rules that go along with it. I don’t think you can replicate it. It has become a driving force. To walk in the ring and to jump a grand prix, it is why I wake up in the morning, and to train to get there. To make these horses better and to work with your partner to see how far you can go, with that end result always being to get into the big ring and jump that big class.
Jacobsen: How do you build that partnership with the horse? How long does that, typically, take?
Tidball: It can be different. My best horse to date, Concetto Son, was already jumping the 1.60m level when I got him. The previous owner created that partnership with that horse. I took it on and spent as much time as I could with Concetto, whether on the ground, at the stables, or on his back, to try to make him mine. I think the best partnerships are the ones where the riders are bringing the horses along themselves. For sure, that way you know them so well. You know when going into the ring how tight they can turn, how fast they can go and what their limits are, what limits are there. I feel if you take on a partnership a little later. You have to find those things out as you go. Also, you haven’t created the partnership together. I don’t think it is ever quite the same. I think you can win some rounds and some classes, but I don’t think it’s the same as when one comes up through the ranks with you.
Jacobsen: Erynn Ballard, this is 12 months ago, when I knew a lot less, had discussed things with a lot fewer people, and had done fewer interviews. She noted independent thought of horses as a problem, as a factor, in consideration of the sport. In some sense, it is a bi-athlete sport. When I talk to riders, it is entirely true. How do you deal with that level of uncertainty, psychologically speaking?
Tidball: I don’t think this is necessarily uncertainty. As we grow with horses, we tend to know what their indicators are very quickly. I rarely get on a horse and don’t know, whether it is wild that day or a little too quiet, or spooky of a Liverpool or scared of the water jump. You feel those things before they happen. You feel when your horse is not quite with you that day. Even something as simple as a soundness issue, you feel it, immediately. They are our partners. They are our teammates. If I walked in and said, “Hi”, to one of my friends, and if their response was, “Fine, I guess”, I know that they’re not okay that day. The moment you put your foot in the strip, or pat them on the neck. You can feel that. I don’t know if it as much of an uncertainty. To me, it’s knowing your partner, knowing their ins and outs. You know when you can push them and, also, when you can’t. Some horses will never jump a water jump well in their lives. That’s something you have to come to terms with; and the other side, some horses, you think to yourself, “I taught them a, b, and c. So, we can get through that next thing.” They all come out on some days a little different, just like us. Whether something spooks them at the ring or they get upset before even leaving their stall. All of the sudden, they’re spun on that day. So many factors come into play, whether you had a phone call or a bad conversation that day. You have to push through it. You have to know yourself well enough to know what you can set aside, what you’re okay with, and what you’re not okay with.
Jacobsen: If you look at the work ethic 25 years ago compared to now, having that transition from young adulthood to now, do you think there’s been a shift in some of that in this industry?
Tidball: I think the sheer numbers of what we do are higher now. Back in the day, you would be a 2-man show with 5 horses on the road. It wasn’t as much about clients and coaching and buying-and-selling horses. I don’t think the work ethic is different, though. For myself, I know. I work out. I stay fit. I work long hours at my job. I coach. I teach. I go teach clinics. I still compete at this sport at a high level. I don’t know many other athletes in this sport who are not like that, who are not travelling constantly, not working constantly to be better. That don’t have 100% drive to succeed at what they want to do. In my mind, the work ethic has not changed.
Jacobsen: Mac Cone noted George Morris produced the training methodology that has gone around the world. So, there has been an internationalization of that methodology. The breeding programs have been specialized and made very good. What are the differentiating factors, then, at the top level?
Tidball: I think looking at a top level. It is like looking at a top-level NBA player. How many people can make it to the NBA and be that #1 player? You look at Olympians. How many people make it into the 100m sprint or into the soccer team that goes to the World Cup? I think it’s the same for horses. There are a few more who could have made it there, but who had bad luck along the way or were on the wrong training program. I think the elite athletes, whether horses or riders, that it’s the same. You are looking for a top athlete for your partner, the horse. I would say back in the day, when Laura was riding; you could name the top 5 horses in the world at that time. As I said, the numbers have grown. In general, the amount of horses, clients, and people riding has increased. Nowadays, you may not be able to name the top 5, because it is the top 20 or top 30. I think there are many horses that are at that #1 level. That, I would say, is a big change. We are breeding horses to be faster, lighter, and more careful. The technicality of the courses in the sport has changed. So, I think that’s a big part of it.
Jacobsen: Has the safety of the sport changed?
Tidball: [Laughing] Absolutely. There used to not be breakaway cups. We did not even have hard hats with chin straps. You get into the amount of concussions that would have gone on 25 years ago would have been astronomically higher than today. The cups fall down. The jumps are way lighter. Of course, it is still a dangerous sport because you are riding a 1,000-pound animal over a 1.60m jump. That’s never an easy thing to conquer. There have definitely been huge improvements. Also, the courses used to be simpler. It used to be 1 jump, 10 strides to the next jump, and one triple combination. Now, you walk on course. It is bending 5 to the 2-stride to the 4-stride, and it carries on. The technicalities increase so much. I do think the safety has gone up, but the technicality has gone up with it.
Jacobsen: Has the speed gone up?
Tidball: Absolutely.
Jacobsen: Of those factors, what factors do you think are the most difficult to accommodate or adapt to?
Tidball: I am not the fastest rider. I have had fewer horses growing up than some. So, I need to preserve these horses. I need them to last for years, not for a season. The faster that you go. The greater the chances of scaring the horse or getting to a wrong spot because you are pushing the envelope a little more. You’re trying to be the winner every day. Things can go wrong because you’re working at top speeds. The most difficult thing for me to overcome is to be faster. I can jump a clean round and jump a technical track, but to beat Kent Farrington or Tiffany Foster. That’s harder for me to accomplish.
Jacobsen: Do you think it is more important to have a skilled rider or a more naturally gifted horse at this point?
Tidball: I think it’s both. It is a partnership – no matter what. You can have a completely untalented rider on an amazing horse. It will jump a few classes, but, eventually, it will stop succeeding. Because they are sensitive creatures. You can have an incredibly talented rider on an average horse. They might be able to get a bit more than the last person. But they will never make a 1.20m horse into a Grand Prix horse, and a 1.20m rider is never going to jump a 1.60m horse. The two things just don’t work. I always think it is that partnership. You need a great rider and a great horse if you want to be at the top of the sport.
Jacobsen: Did Laura coach you at all?
Tidball: Absolutely.
Jacobsen: How so?
Tidball: Laura always coached with subtleties. It was something small that would make a big difference. One time, I remember riding up to this big oxer. I think it was the Queen’s Cup. She said, “Make sure hind end meets front end before he leaves the ground, so he is pushing evenly off all four legs.” It is not necessarily about “think about where your shoulder is, hand is, or eye level is”. It was always small intricacies that always made a difference. She rode so much off of feel. She had so much natural talent. When she tells me things, it is, usually, something to do with feel, or something to do with a small part of a course. It is never a big lifechanging moment. If I haven’t figured out those big moments by now, having gotten to this level, then I should have paid closer attention [Laughing].
Jacobsen: Sean Jobin noted the use of video technology. Certain biomechanical feedback systems to get a better read on horses with modern technology. Do you think these are more helpful or less helpful for most riders at that level?
Tidball: I, definitely, think going back and watching your videos and being able to see how you performed is good. What you feel and what you see are, sometimes, two different things, you can think that you were leaving at the right spot, but you were a little close. You can go back and watch a video and analyze, and see a horse leaving the ground, if the left front or the right front is lower. It gives you a little bit more information. You are looking for small things, not huge changes.
Jacobsen: One thing, I have noted. Canada is really, really good at producing great women riders. Internationally, and nationally, Canada produces some of the best women riders in the world for show jumping. Why, how?
Tidball: I, actually, don’t really know. I know the way I was raised was to go off and get your dreams. I would say that is biggest thing that has led me to where I am, to be a great woman rider. I grew up in a family where nobody ever told me, “That person is a guy. He is going to be better than you.” All I ever heard. It was, “That person runs fast. You should learn to run faster too.”
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Tidball: It was never, “But you’re a girl, so you can’t.” My grandparents were amazing that way. So was my mom, it was always about being the best version of yourself. I competed against myself, not really against others. I was always brought up to be the best version of myself, not to be better than so-and-so. For myself, that’s helped me become a top athlete. But I’m not really sure why Canada has so many top women equestrians.
Jacobsen: Show jumping is really a gender-neutral sport. If you are talented and have a good horse, you can go far. Many Canadian women have shown this, clearly, as we noted. Any commentary both on the gender neutrality of the sport and the longevity of the sport? People like Ian Millar were competing into their 70s and going into the Olympics into their 70s.
Tidball: I think show jumping is amazing that way. I love that we compete on an equal level, male and female. I think it’s great. I think it raises, like you said, “Why more female riders than males in Canada coming up?” I think the fact that it is gender neutral. It means you get to compete on an equal playing ground. Athletes in show jumping, we’ve been raised to be equals. It is a pretty incredible thing to be in this sport. I think society today is about equality. We are in a sport where it doesn’t matter. If you have the right horse and are a good rider, you can get to where you want to be.
Jacobsen: The team that went to Denmark was an all-women team.
Tidball: I think that was incredible. I give them such props. I think it’s awesome that we can produce strong athletes, a strong group of female athletes. I think it’s really good.
Jacobsen: Which countries do you think are doing the best in show jumping now?
Tidball: Holland and Belgium, and, probably, France, they have a high number of horses that they are breeding every year. In horse power alone, they have numbers. The U.S. has the population exceeding most of the other countries producing riders. They have that on their side. As Canadians, I think we’ve always been a little bit of an underdog. We’ve always had a smaller group of riders, not as many who jump the 1.60m level. But the ones who do, are good at it. We’ve always been able to produce good results. There’s been medals at Pan-Ams, medals at Olympics. With the size of our show jumping population in Canada, and the number of people who show at that level, it’s surprising that we produce the teams that we do. Canada has always been able to do it. I would give us credit for the programs that we’ve created here, for the level of riding that we’ve produced. If you look at Thunderbird Show Park, the fact that there are FEI in my backyard. It used to be: If you were a Western Canadian, there was nowhere to compete at other than Spruce Meadows. Now, we have a circuit on the West Coast. That is a huge reason we are producing riders.
Jacobsen: How did Langley become the Horse Capital of British Columbia? How did it get that appellation?
Tidball: There was Campbell Valley Park. That’s where it started. There were a lot of hobby farms. It came from the hobby farms. It is not, actually, from the show jumping community, necessarily.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] I didn’t know that.
Tidball: Definitely, when Show Park moved to its new venue, it increased the drive for show jumping in our area. It has gotten bigger and bigger.
Jacobsen: Before, Thunderbird Show Park was, for anyone reading locally, where the Colossus grounds is, before. People would eat at the Keg, eat their steaks, and watch show jumping. It was a nice tie-in.
Tidball: My grandfather went to the Cow Palace in San Francisco and loved it! The Keg in Langley was a representation of that. He thought it was the coolest thing. You could be watching roping in the arena, cutting in the arena, and show jumping in the arena. It was used for many things. That was the start of it. He thought it was the neatest thing to be sitting, eating your dinner, and watching show jumping at the same time. That’s where that idea came from. I hosted at The Keg. It was the hardest thing. People would come in and want a window seat. The wait would be hours and hours. It really created in our community an understanding of show jumping. Thunderbird became a known name. The Keg restaurant became a known name. It added to people wanting to come down to the shows and be a part of the culture.
Jacobsen: George brought McDonald’s to Canada, in Richmond in particular.
Tidball: He went to school in Harvard. My grandmother was with him, obviously. They had three small children. She would take them to McDonald’s, the kids. Because it was inexpensive and clean. Service was good. If something was spilled, somebody would clean it up. She loved it. After he finished at Harvard, he was working at MacMillan Bloedel. They wanted him to relocate to the United States somewhere. She didn’t want him to relocate again. They’d been all over the U.S. at that point. She’d had enough. She said, “George, why don’t you bring that McDonald’s place to Canada?” So, he found Ray Kroc and got the rights to Western Canada for McDonald’s.
Jacobsen: He was going to work directly with Milton Friedman.
Tidball: Yes, he was going to do his Ph.D. in economics at the University of Chicago with Friedman. They’d gotten into so much debt being in the States, being Canadian. My grandmother was typing papers for people at night to make things work. He went and was going to go to the University of Chicago. He opted out because they couldn’t keep going.
Jacobsen: I recall one article with him saying that they were tired of being broke.
Tidball: They were broke. They had a Volkswagen bug with three kids and the two of them.
Jacobsen: It was time for a change.
Tidball: Yes.
Jacobsen: What I am seeing in this family history is entrepreneurial business-mindset of George, motivation and also co-entrepreneurial business mind in Diane, two of their children on national teams. National ski team for Jane. National equestrian team for Laura. For yourself, as far as I know, you have jumped in the Nations Cup. It’s a strong trend in the family.
Tidball: Yes, my cousin went to the Paralympics for triathlon. It is a trend. The general trend of our family is to do the very best at what you choose to do, whether in school, in sport, or in life in general. It is to strive for the best. I would say that that has been the motto in our family all through my life. My cousin just got a job at Tesla. It’s been ingrained in us. My grandparents did an incredible in that. They didn’t put a demand on what it was that you chose to do; they just wanted you to do something that you loved. Once you chose what it was, they supported you. Also, they remind you how hard it is to work for what you love. They instilled a work ethic that goes beyond. Because, no matter what, you can do what you love every day. Let’s be honest, working in a barn every day is hard work. I wake up every day. I love my job. I love what I get to do. I don’t go, “Oh, today will be easy. I will have coffee with three people, quit early, go to the spa.” That’s not my daily routine. My daily routine is 7 in the morning to 7 at night. That’s the norm. I think if you’re lucky enough to do something that you love; it means that you’ll work harder to be able to keep doing it.
Jacobsen: Do you think the industry is weaker or stronger for show jumping in Canada?
Tidball: I think it’s getting stronger. I think there are more people getting involved in show jumping. The number of people involved in riding with horses is going up. I think show jumping is a great individual sport. For kids these days, it really gives them something that is a perfectionist sport that you get to keep striving for. It teaches a sense of responsibility with an animal. When we walk into a ring, we are not just taking care of ourselves. We have a partner with us. I think that’s a really important lesson. You will walk back into the ring. Maybe, you won the class. Maybe, you fell off. There is always something you could have done better, whether big or small. It teaches the sense of drive and work ethic that goes along with it. That’s what I’ve been taught in my time on horses.
Jacobsen: What do you consider the area of greatest improvement in riding skill and style?
Tidball: When I got to travel to Florida and got to perform on the world stage, immersing yourself with the top riders in the world, you pick it up. You get to watch what they do, how they are training. No matter what, I think that has been the biggest thing. I got to get out of my bubble and experience more. Any time to experience the great sport, it really gives you an appreciation of what you’re doing.
Jacobsen: You are considering Langley the bubble.
Tidball: Yes, Langley and California, I think when you get to go to Europe and Florida and can train with other people. There’s nothing wrong with being in Langley. It’s been great. We get two big shows a year. We have May and August, where the world stage comes to us. For sure, immersing yourself in those moments is huge, if you can have May and August throughout the year, your level will increase. With California and the Major League shows down there, it gives the opportunity to immerse yourself with the top riders. Any time that you can do that, and any time pay attention, you can learn.
Jacobsen: What did you learn in Florida immersing yourself with the top riders? What were the first things you noticed about how they conduct themselves?
Tidball: The biggest thing I learned was how fast they were. They go faster all the time. Their speed is at a different level than what I was used to when I got there. Also, their technique, it is little things. It is how they present something to their horses. It is how they are meeting a jump. It is the distances where they leave out a stride. Everything tightens up a little. That’s the only way I can describe it. Your track, your distances, your time between the jumps. Everything gets that much tighter. Because you are doing it day-in and day-out. You get used to it. All of the sudden, you come home. “That’s the line I should take.” Because that’s the line you’ve done for the last month. It was such a great experience that way.
Jacobsen: What are your dreams in this sport moving sport? Because taking the Ian Millar and Beth Underhill examples, you have a long career ahead of you.
Tidball: I would love to be able to compete on national teams and at the 1.60 level. I think it depends on if the right horse comes into my life. I do believe some of it is fate oriented. I think things happen at the right time at the right places. If a horse can come into my life to take me into those levels again, I would love to be on Nations Cup teams and do the Pan-Am Games. It would be a dream come true for me. The other side of it, I love training and bringing up young horses, and seeing what they can do. If one of them turns into one of those horses that can do that for me, that would be an ultimate goal. A horse you take through the levels into the top level. That is something that I would look forward to. I hope one of these youngsters that I have now can compete on the world stage.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 34: L.J. Tidball on Growth as a Show Jumper, George and Diane Tidball, and Show Jumping (1). January 2023; 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-1
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2023, January 1). The Greenhorn Chronicles 34: L.J. Tidball on Growth as a Show Jumper, George and Diane Tidball, and Show Jumping (1). In-Sight Publishing. 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-1.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 34: L.J. Tidball on Growth as a Show Jumper, George and Diane Tidball, and Show Jumping (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 2, 2023.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2023. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 34: L.J. Tidball on Growth as a Show Jumper, George and Diane Tidball, and Show Jumping (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (Spring). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-1.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 34: L.J. Tidball on Growth as a Show Jumper, George and Diane Tidball, and Show Jumping (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (January 2023). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-1.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2023) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 34: L.J. Tidball on Growth as a Show Jumper, George and Diane Tidball, and Show Jumping (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(2). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-1>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2023, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 34: L.J. Tidball on Growth as a Show Jumper, George and Diane Tidball, and Show Jumping (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 2, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-1>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 34: L.J. Tidball on Growth as a Show Jumper, George and Diane Tidball, and Show Jumping (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 2, 2023, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-1.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 34: L.J. Tidball on Growth as a Show Jumper, George and Diane Tidball, and Show Jumping (1) [Internet]. 2023 Jan; 11(2). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tidball-1
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/01/01
*Interview conducted December 5, 2022.*
Abstract
Mac Cone, according to Starting Gate Communications, can be described as follows: “Mac Cone is one of Canada’s most experienced riders having been a steady performer at the international level for over 30 years. In 1974, he married Canadian Brenley Carpenter and the couple has two daughters. Originally from Tennessee, Mac moved to Canada in 1979 and is one of only two riders to have competed on both the United States and Canadian Equestrian Teams (the other being 1984 World Cup Champion Mario Deslauriers). With the stallion Elute, Mac enjoyed victory in the $100,000 Autumn Classic in New York in 1994. Although the pair was selected for the 1995 Pan American Games in Argentina, they were unable to compete due to a last minute injury. Elute made a strong comeback, however, winning the 1996 Olympic Selection Trials at Spruce Meadows. In his Olympic debut in Atlanta, Mac was the highest-placed Canadian rider, a feat he would repeat at the 2002 World Equestrian Games in Jerez, Spain, riding Cocu. At the 2007 Pan American Games in Rio de Janeiro, Mac and Melinda were members of the Silver Medal Team. In his second Olympic appearance in 2008, Mac and the impressive Ole were members of Canada’s historic Silver Medal Team. In addition to his own riding, Mac is active as an instructor and clinician. His personal style, which is very low key and easy going, makes him very popular with his students, who have included 1986 World Champion Gail Greenough and 2003 Pan American Games competitor, Mark Samuel. Mac operates Southern Ways Stable in King, Ontario.” Cone discusses: the factors outside of grit and training methodology that really set the great riders apart; more boys; the blue-collar level of work; the greatest streak of success; the biggest surprise in the 21st century; the greatest in the history of the sport; and the industry and the sport.
Keywords: African-American, equitation, European heritage, Frank Chapot, George Morris, Hispanic, hunter, Jessica Springsteen, Latino, Mac Cone, Olympics, riding, risks, Robert Ridland.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 33: Mac Cone on the Direction of Show Jumping and Its History (3)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Over time, countries that tend to be well to do tend to become soft. They become comfortable. So, artificially, they value their lives more than other countries. The inverse for countries in war torn circumstances. Life is functionally cheap there. So, that aspect of grit in the newer crop may not necessarily be there as much per rider. Yet, the methodologies are pretty much fixed globally, as you were noting earlier. On the one hand, you have barriers to entry with cost of horses at the highest level, maybe, even at some of the lower level too, as well as with the training methodologies being figured out so far. Also, you have the aspect of things like resilience or grit. If people can’t handle the long work days and the constant criticism, and getting bumped around, or falling off a horse and having to get back up, they may not necessarily last very long. Old videos of Eric Lamaze, he really knew how to ‘put on the gas’. He took those risks in riding. What do you think are the factors outside of grit and training methodology that really set the great riders apart?
Mac Cone: That goes back to when you were born, what circumstance are you born into, and what you do with that circumstance. It is not your fault what family you were born into or circumstance born into; it is what you do with your beginning and where you build from that. Once again, everybody’s road to Rome is different. Now, yes, there are some very entitled people who are getting into the sport now. You wonder if the grit is there enough to really count on them. Even though, the more fortunate kids that have no financial wall to deal with make it. Hopefully, because of the coaching and their attitude, and that they have grit, they are just as good as a hard knockin’ person that came from a different path. I will talk about one person. I mean this in nothing but positive, positive ways before I get going here. But it is such a public person. Everybody knows the story anyway. That is Jessica Springsteen. Everybody knows about Jessica Springsteen’s parent. It is Bruce Springsteen and Patti Scialfi. We know that. We know that they’re a well-to-do family. But she came up through the ponies, the hunters, and the equitation. I’m telling you. That is one knowledgeable, very good riding individual who has come up through the whole system. That’s all put into place. But the last Olympic games, she was on that team.
She was the anchor of that group because that is one tough, great riding young lady. So, there’s an example of someone that did have a pretty nice path to Rome. But she took advantage of it, did not abuse her situation at all. She just worked, and worked, and worked. She is tough and talented. She has a silver medal in her bedroom or den. So, Bruce can look at it with her. That’s one example of when you have a certain start that is beneficial. But it doesn’t mean that that start will make you soft, necessarily. I understand that that is what you were getting at. Can it be that way? Yes. Does it happen a lot? Yes, but not always, not always, the ones that are tough and do make it. They should not be frowned upon because of the family they were born into. I guess, that’s where I want to make sure that is where I stand quoted there. Now, there is the other side of the coin with the people because of their start; they may be just as talented, but they won’t get the opportunities to go to Rome as quickly or, maybe, not ever. It is not because of a lack of talent or grit, but because of the circumstance and the industry having thrown the financial side of the sport way out of whack if that explains it well. I think that explains it pretty well.
Jacobsen: You mentioned something in one of the earlier sessions coming to mind, which are a couple of things Canada does uniquely in spite of the training regimens. One is the focus on hunter. The other is the focus on equitation. This effecting the paths of how many boys are interested and how many girls are interested, 12 to 17 years old. Something like that. So, to get a better balance, maybe, for that age group in terms of interest, what might be a change that could bring more boys, instead of going into a different sport?
Cone: Yes, since we talked earlier, this is a little bit of a stickler point for me. The equitation and the hunters were brought in to North America. Back in the days before George had spread the gospel about how we should ride, the system of riding was not universal. Everybody had a different style. It was just a mess. So, the U.S. and the Canada following, as we do often [Laughing] – being Canadian, a little tongue in cheek there – came up with the hunters and the equitation, which provided a way of riding that got to be more of everyone riding the same. It was one or two countries here, out two countries. I don’t call that universal. But it did serve a great purpose in smoothing out everyone out, learning to do 5 strides in a 5 stride line, 6 in a 6, and not 7 or 8 in a 6. It made everybody start riding similarly and smoother, and nicer. The smoother and nicer that you’re able to ride a jumper. The idea is the odds will go up in your favour to leaving the jumps in the cups. If you ride rough and tough, it tends to make jumps fall down.
That was the purpose behind it all It was to smooth everybody all and will give the horse the chance to perform better. But, I think, because of the industry, we now have a lot of people in the industry that make a living off just hunters and just equitation. So, we’re not going to take that industry and throw it out. It’s just not going to happen. But if you look at the whole world now, we have just, I think, the equitation as far as preparing the jumper riders for the high level to a certain degree as outlived its purpose. There are other ways and, I think, better ways of preparing the jumper riders to get to the top. That gets to my other point. We have, let’s say, 80 countries over here by my right hand who do not choose to do equitation and hunters, but they could if they thought it was good for the development of their riders. Then we have Canada and the U.S. who still lean on that system for the development of their younger riders and think it’s important. Where we stand right now in the world, I would say that we’re behind a lot. We’re barely in the top 10 in Canada. We’re behind them. The U.S. is behind the top 10 now. Not always, they’ve had a bang-up record with Robert Ridland. He has done a hell of a job. But, I think, it is getting back now. We have knowledge. We have divisions that we can train these young people to ride properly in.
But on jumping horses, not equitation horses that jump flat and give you no feel, we need these kids to feel what a jumper feels like right from the start and how to ride an animal like that and how to do 5s in 5s and 6s in 6s and 4s in 4s, but smoothly on jumping horses and learning time for that from a young, young age. Those kids who know they don’t have to go; I’m talking of the culture. The culture needs to be there. The boys can say, “I love soccer. But that running around in the jumper ring. Even though, the coach is hard on me. That looks like fun.” If we are leaving almost 50% of our talented young riders on the soccer field because of our system that is totally different than the rest of the world who is not using that system, I begin to wonder if our system doesn’t need to be addressed a little bit. We might get more boys involved if that answers your question.
Jacobsen: It does. Another facet discussed in the second (lost) session was staff and types of labour if you want to call it that or backgrounds of people in the labour force. In general, you see riders-trainers tend to be European heritage. If you look at those who are cleaning the stalls, raking the aisles, sweeping the aisles, and some of the care of the horses, typically, they are Latino or Hispanic background or blue-collar white background, more often men than women. Has this always been the case? Has it changed over time? Why is this the case at the blue-collar level of work?
Cone: Now, this is totally an industry question, which is totally different than a sport question. So, industry question, the history behind this. I would say: Picture the state of Virginia in the 40s, 50s, and 60s. The horses in Virginia would be fox hunting horses and slowly, maybe, some show horses. It was racehorses. It was a different atmosphere altogether. The sport of kings was still definitely a lot there. Most of the people who owned those horses and went fox hunting were traditionally white people. They had a little bit of money. You can’t blame them for loving horses and wanting to do something with their horses. Now, some of those people, white people, would take care of their own horse. They would have their own barn, muck their own stall. That’s the case now. It’s not entitlement out there. But there would be stables, kind of like Rodney Jenkins’ dad stable before Rodney got famous. He would have staff members doing mucking and grooming getting horses ready for the clients who would come to go fox hunting.
Those employees back then were mainly African-Americans. I want to be politically correct here in my statement. That’s just the way it was. You weren’t required to have a college degree. You weren’t required to come from one side of the tracks and not the other. You were required to be a nice person, show up, and get a paycheque. A lot of them were African-Americans for sure. As time has gone on, you see fewer – and no need to discuss why, doesn’t really matter why – or as many African-Americans now. You see more Latino workers. Both female and male, though, maybe more male, it is definitely more Latino workers now. In Canada, there’s not as many Latino workers accessible to us, as they are in the States, especially the Southern parts of the U.S. We tend to get more young people who love the horses, possibly, want to bring their horse in and get lessons, be working students, or, maybe, just young people who need a job before they figure out if they are going to go to college or not. It is a different sort of work pool, which you see in Canada as opposed to the U.S. I would say it is younger horse crazy people who end up working in the stables for a while for whatever reason.
Jacobsen: Which country do you think has had the greatest streak of success over the longest streak of time in show jumping, competitive-wise?
Cone: If you go back to when the Olympics first had show jumping in it, horse jumping, don’t hold me to this, it was back in the 50s at some point, for sure. The horses back then for the U.S. came from the calvary. Talking about getting drafted.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Cone: You were drafted into the Army. If you wanted to ride horses, you could go and try riding. The next thing you know, you are riding into the Olympic games. The horses went ot eh calvary. They needed them back then still or thought they did. They slowly phased horses out, as we know. Way back then, closer to your answer, it would be Germany. For sure, it was the strongest for quite a while. They rode. They had big powerful horses and had mainly big powerful men who were very talented: Alwin Schockemöhle, Paul Schockemöhle, Hans Günter Winkler, these are famous German riders who dominated the sport for a long time. I’ll put it to you this way. There are many Olympics that the Germans were gold and the U.S. were silver. It seemed to be that was the way it went for a lot of Olympics. It wasn’t until the Los Angeles Olympics that the U.S. won their gold medal. I was Canadian by then. They, the U.S., had Conrad, Joseph “Joe” Halpin Fargis IV, Melanie Smith, and Leslie Burr Howard. Now, there are gritty, hard nosed, spit in your face individuals who knew no fear and were talented beyond belief. For them to walk away with that gold medal, it is no surprise. How am I doing answering the question? [Laughing]
Jacobsen: Who do you think has been the biggest surprise in the 21st century in terms of its success, a newcomer?
Cone: George Morris and Frank Chapot shared the chef-ing of the U.S. team for quite a while after De Nemethy retired. They carried on a great, great tradition and did well. When they both got out of it, Robert Ridland had taken over and his success has been amazing. His results, I can’t even tell you all that he has won. Now, him and I were together at Gladstone. We were both drafted at the same time. He is a year older than me. We were hard and fast friends. We still are; there’s been many a sport competition that has been on television that we’ve watched together. Maybe, not even the nicest places in the world where we were watching them [Laughing] that doesn’t matter, where we were watching them. We are good friends. He has done a bang up job there. Others countries that have popped in and out depending on the top. France has done amazing. Recently, Sweden has just taken over the entire world. Not only with their riders, but with these animals they have right now. My God, they’re quite a big space between their animals and the rest of the world right now. It is pretty amazing with their group. So, I would say that right now. Depending on how their horse flesh holds up, like we talked about Canada holding up after Beijing, if their horses hold up, or if they come up with new ones, they’re the new kid on the block. They’ve always been there knocking away. They have had good ones. Rolf-Göran Bengtsson, he sat behind Eric on the individual in Beijing. It’s the whole thing.
They’ve had four hard-knockin’ people all at the same time that last couple of competitions, the Olympics and, now, the World Championships. We’ll see how they hold together. If you want to call them then new kid powerhouse on the block, them for sure. It shifts around. Oh! The Dutch were dominating for a long time. They had Jeroen Dubbeldam, Maikel van der Vleuten, Gerco Schröder, and Marc Houtzager, and a bunch of top Dutch riders, going back to Jos Lansink and Jan Tops. The Dutch are always there and always a real pain in the ass.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Cone: I always said, when we came to these Nations Cup, “First thing we have to do is take care of the Germans, make sure we beat them, but then we have to worry about the U.S.” That explains it a little bit. [Laughing] Not that we could do anything, all we could do is jump our horses, but it made me feel better saying that.
Jacobsen: Is there a single horse that people regard as the greatest in the history of the sport?
Cone: That goes back to a history lesson. Like, who is the greatest basketball player? Is it LeBron or Jordan, or Chamberlain? Is it Tom Brady or Joe Montana in football? It gets down to opinion. But I can give you a history of some of the great ones I have known. Even if I didn’t know them, I have seen tapes. The one that really comes to mind is a horse that came from a bit of a standard bred background, as I understood it. Halla that Hans Günter Winkler had. The longevity of that horse at the top level was amazing. Longevity, like when you’re talking about GOATs, it does play into the discussion. So, I would say that is the case. One of the greatest horses I ever saw growing up was one of Rodney Jenkins’ named Idle Dice. He dominated the U.S. scene. When Europe would come over here for the indoor circuit for the Nations Cup tour, he would take them all head on and almost win almost every class, including the top Europeans coming over. He was just simply amazing. Then Melanie Smith’s horse, Calypso, he had a longevity of incredible length over and over again in wins, in the U.S. A horse named Gem Twist, longevity with several riders. It was great with his original rider, Greg Best, who took him from the junior jumper levels to the top. I am not a big Disney World story guy.
But that was a Disney World story horse. Frank Chapot bred the horse. Greg had the horse as a rider. He went through everything asked him. He did Olympic medals, World Championship medals, and same with Leslie Howard’s story riding him. Those are some. Big Ben, I can’t forget about Big Ben, of course. Longevity, two World Cup finals winner. Joh Whitaker’s horse Milton. You can think of a horse like Jus de Pomme who won the individual gold and the team gold in Atlanta. Top of the world and by far the best horse there. But he died right after that. That was too bad. ET ridden by Hugo Simon. I can go on, and on, and on, if people could keep jogging my memory with candidates. There is not one answer if that helps you [Laughing]. Hickstead, of course, I can’t leave Hickstead out.
Jacobsen: Where do you think the industry and the sport are headed?
Cone: It is getting more and more popular worldwide. The problem I have with it goes back to the elephant in the room, which are the finances involved with it. I don’t mind the horses really costing that much if that is what is going to happen. I don’t care that the prize money has gone up if that is what is going to happen. I like it that even if the television covers it more and more. I think the internet hurt us. You see the jumping on the internet, not necessarily on the television set. I don’t know if that is a good thing. I really don’t think that is a good thing, even if the audience is more. I think we need to gear the audience back to the family sitting in front of the T.V. set and being sports fans all together. When you go to Aachen, Germany, arguably the greatest show in the world, that and Spruce Meadows; you have 80,000 people sitting in those stands and 5 strides away from the jump; you’ll hear the whole crowd go [Gasp].
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Cone: They know the rider 5 strides away is already in trouble. So, how do they become that knowledgeable? By being together as a family and watching the sport together, the internet, your kid sitting there over the corner of the room and not even talking to anybody with his face buried in the computer or the iPad. I know that. I have grandchildren. I watch them. I don’t know if that is a good thing for our sport. But the elephant in the room does keep, not all, some of the best athletes out on the soccer field, or it leaves them in a capacity into a stable where they never get a leg up to where they should go, and the horses that should be under them; and the people who should be back them. It leaves them out. There are a lot of people that do different paths who get to go there, but the money has to eventually come there and support whoever it is. It doesn’t come around in equal basis to everyone. That doesn’t make it a true sport, sometimes. People won’t like me saying that. I’ll say it again. If you’re good at basketball, there’s a ladder for you to go up the NBA and make a lot of money. The same in football and the same in soccer, the same in baseball, those are true sports. Money isn’t a part of it. It is only talent and behaving yourself. You’ll get drafted and make a lot of money and will go to the top of the sport if you’re good enough. Unfortunately, I can’t say that about show jumping.
Jacobsen: Mac, thank you very much for the opportunity and your time, once more [Laughing].
Cone: [Laughing] How many people are going to want to shoot me now? [Laughing] At 70 years of age, I don’t care.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] That’s part of the charm.
Cone: They could shoot me now. But I’ve had a hell of a go [Laughing].
Jacobsen: Thank you very much.
Cone: Alright, take care.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 33: Mac Cone on the Direction of Show Jumping and Its History (3). January 2023; 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-3
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2023, January 1). The Greenhorn Chronicles 33: Mac Cone on the Direction of Show Jumping and Its History (3). In-Sight Publishing. 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-3.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 33: Mac Cone on the Direction of Show Jumping and Its History (3). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 2, 2023.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2023. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 33: Mac Cone on the Direction of Show Jumping and Its History (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (Spring). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-3.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 33: Mac Cone on the Direction of Show Jumping and Its History (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (January 2023). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-3.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2023) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 33: Mac Cone on the Direction of Show Jumping and Its History (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(2). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-3>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2023, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 33: Mac Cone on the Direction of Show Jumping and Its History (3)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 2, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-3>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 33: Mac Cone on the Direction of Show Jumping and Its History (3).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 2, 2023, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-3.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 33: Mac Cone on the Direction of Show Jumping and Its History (3) [Internet]. 2023 Jan; 11(2). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-3
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/01/01
*Interview conducted December 13, 2022.*
Abstract
Hyde Moffatt, according to Starting Gate Communications, can be described as follows: “Andrew Hyde Moffatt had an unusual introduction to horses. When he was five years old, a girl at school brought in her horse for show-and-tell and Hyde was hooked! His top horse is Ting Tin, a son of the well-known sire Chin Chin, purchased in Belgium as a six-year-old. Hyde describes Ting Tin as a brave, intelligent and energetic horse who loves to play with people, but gets bored easily. Starting their Grand Prix career together in 2004, Hyde and Ting Tin have steadily improved with each outing, enjoying top ten finishes at several of the biggest horse shows in Canada including the Capital Classic Show Jumping Tournament, the Collingwood Horse Show, Tournament of Champions, and the Royal Agricultural Winter Fair. When he is not showing in the Grand Prix ring, Hyde competes with several horses in the Young Horse Development Series including Baron, who was crowned the 2006 Ontario Six-Year-Old Champion. In addition to his equestrian pursuits, Hyde also enjoys running. Although he is currently a middle distance runner at 10 to 15 km, he would like to work towards doing his first marathon.” Moffatt discusses: some of the dynamics involved in developing that interest; different disciplines within equestrianism; bumps along the road; Canadian show jumping; George Morris; rankings; and criticisms of those rankings.
Keywords: equestrianism, equitation, George Morris, horses, hunter, Hyde Moffatt, Jeroen Dubbeldam, Jill Henselwood, Mac Cone, Olympics, pony club, show jumping, sport, World Championships.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 32: Hyde Moffatt on Getting Started and Rankings (1)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This is session 2 with Hyde Moffatt. As a preliminary note to this particular session, as with the Mac Cone first sessions, this first session with Hyde Moffatt, basically, went through the old system, the older computer. The audio file as corrupted, unfortunately. I have a new 2021 iMac. It is much better and things will be much more functional. So, Hyde, I apologize more formally. Let’s begin again, starting more from the perspective of a boy and an adolescent getting interested in horses, what were some of the dynamics involved in developing that interest?
Hyde Moffatt: I was lucky in the situation in which I grew up. It was a little bit of a small town. My introduction to horses was when a girl brought a horse to show and tell in kindergarten at 5-years-old. That peaked my interest. As far as getting into it, it was a little bit random. I do not have a family behind me. I do not have a family that has a lengthy tenure in the horse industry or anything like that. I was the first one of my family to be involved. Really, that was more of a fluke. As I grew up, I guess, some of the dynamics and stuff. Your friends all play hockey and baseball. I was very much more of a person geared towards individual sports, the way I operated. I didn’t feel a lot of pressure.
Certainly, my friends saw this as a girls sport. Lots of stuff people would say back then. It didn’t bother me. In this whole sport world, all you had to do was go out in the barn a few times to know that. It didn’t bother me at all. I enjoyed it. I enjoyed the responsibilities that came with horses and all of the accompanying stuff. For me, it was easy to figure out this was a sport that I really enjoyed.
Jacobsen: What about different disciplines within equestrianism at large? Things like horse racing or dressage. Were these in play in consideration or just show jumping?
Moffatt: I’ve done a bit of everything over the years. My basics included a bit of pony club. My area was not super dense in high-level horse activity, equestrian activity. Pony club provided me with the opportunity to learn things and access information. There is a lot of 3-day eventing. A lot of the horsemanship and all those things. There is a little bit of exposure to dressage, cross country, fitness and conditioning. Some of those people went on to become more involved in endurance riding and things. Certainly, the exposure to different disciplines was there for me. When I was 14 years old, I started to break horses. We would break and start 105 race horses a year, quite a large number, for the operation I was riding for in Lancaster. Eventually, I have done more things. My pony club was also associated with the Hamilton Hunt Club. I have field hunting too. I think the wide-ranging exposure is, probably, something that we, maybe, lack a little bit of, in the development of many riders now. We seem to be one sport focused very early. I think those same discussions are happening in hockey and football as well. Where, people are specializing in a sport at too early of an age. I think it is beneficial to play between the disciplines at a younger age.
I think there is something to be learned from all of them. It is also important to have an interest outside of horses. Those that can educate themselves in another sport also tend to excel later on. Some of that stuff that you learn in how to use your body, even how to think quickly while multitasking. Some of those can be learn in other sports as well and be applied to horses.
Jacobsen: What were some of the bumps along the road for you? I don’t want to make the mistake in doing these interviews that those who do the sport nationally and internationally had an easy time all the time. Most of the time, people have to work a lot of hours and work hard, and overcome certain obstacles, even just injuries or things of this nature.
Moffatt: There’s been a number of bumps. I wouldn’t say any of it has been easy. My path, I was willing to do the jobs others were unwilling to do: Muck stalls, did all those things when I was very young. My interest in doing those things, probably, provided me an opportunity to ride some horses. When I took those opportunities, they weren’t always the most broke or the nicest horse, but my job was just to ride them and see if I could make them a little bit better, regardless of whether it would be a phenomenal athlete or if it didn’t have much of a future as a sport horse. By doing that, it gave me more opportunities. The thing was, everything built organically in my career. It was all through work. I was willing to work the horse that stopped or wasn’t always behaving itself or the horse that was green.
In doing so, maybe, in the process, you had an opportunity to ride a better one that rose up. It was always one foot in front of the other in terms of show up and do the work. As far as injuries go, I’ve had my fair share. You don’t survive this sport forever without getting hurt. Sometimes, they fall over. Sometimes, you fall off. I’ve broken legs, had surgeries, had ribs broken, and wrist issues, over the years. Fortunately, I’ve been lucky. Everything has healed up and nothing was a catastrophic injury. I, certainly, broke a leg badly, at one point, and had an 8” plate and 12 screws, and, probably, 18 months of recovery, of which 11 weeks were off a horse. It, probably, should have been more than that. There are, certainly, challenges. Then there are the challenges of finding your niche within the industry. As I said, I made my niche a little bit because I was willing to ride things other people weren’t willing to ride. When I was riding, I was able to make a difference, or, at least, people thought I did.
Because they would offer me more horses to ride. That’s how I got there. There was a prevailing fear, as well, speaking of speed bumps. That if you said, “No”, to a horse, then they’d go ask someone else. I rarely said, “No”.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] Hospitality mentality.
Moffatt: Absolutely.
Jacobsen: What areas do you think Canadian show jumping is focusing on very, very early? I’m told things like equitation and hunter are a big thing. Is this the trend that we’re seeing over time?
Moffatt: Yes. If we are building riders for show jumping anyway, which is the one I can speak to the most, I think in the stages of development. I think there’s a focus on the hunters and the equitation. In that, you’re skill-building. There are good places to skill build, where things happen in reasonably controlled manners. Where, there is incentive to focus on how things are done, not just getting them done. So, it is definitely the focus of the youth, for sure. Hunters is such a good introduction, where people learn rhythm, balance, and straightness. All the important factors of getting horses to jump well, and the equitation focuses so much on that. Also, on rider technique, function follows form in this sport. If you can make the right things happen, then you stand a much better chance of having a good conversation with your horse.
Jacobsen: I’m told pretty much 3, 4, 5, decades ago. If you were to look at a rider from Germany, France, America, from Canada, you could tell the style of riding without necessarily understanding the nationality of the individual. However, after George Morris, there has been an internationalization of the methodology in the training and the ride. So, this homogenizing fact reduces the differentiating factors of high-performance on that factor. What does Canada do a little bit different if at all in terms of that methodology that’s been taken over through copying of George Morris, if any?
Moffatt: I don’t know if we do anything necessarily different. The sport contains more international travel, and with horses, became easier. We have more riders and different styles, and horses, became frequent. The search to become better at sport; we ended up adopting from each of those styles that which seemed more effective or competitive. We didn’t morph more towards or the Germans, and the Germans didn’t morph more towards us. It was a melding of all those things in the middle. I don’t know if we necessarily did anything different. The one thing that we, maybe, have a little bit of a different – not necessarily advantage – is that with Canada being such a large country with a small population; no different from building infrastructure, everything is difficult in this country. It is always far, always hard, whether putting in telephone lines or trying to show across the country. It presents challenges that are present in some other countries. It eliminates some of those struggles. I think that, maybe, that helps to build the Canadian character a little bit. We have to really want it to get there. When you look at the 2008 games where Eric won, moreso, the team jumped off for gold.
You’d say, “We had a great group of riders and a great group of horses. We did.” It’s way more than that. Mac Cone’s horse was unable to finish. We were down to three riders and no drop score. Jill Henselwood’s first round in the team competition didn’t go according to plan. She was able to pull magic out and make clean in the second round. Stuff like that. That deep desire to do good, to be able to overcome those difficulties. It comes from somewhere. I’m not sure what it is. Let’s put it to geography and the Canadian nature.
Jacobsen: There’s another facet of some discussion in different aspects of the equestrian world, which I’ve been researching in the discipline of show jumping. I have noticed January to July. Our rankings were very, very good. Then there is a slight decline July/August to the present. I’m told this is more of a seasonal thing because, in North America, you have to travel farther. There are fewer per capita competitions to take part in compared to Western Europe.
Moffatt: Most definitely.
Jacobsen: If anyone is looking at the rankings throughout the year, there’s going to be a wobble in terms of how good a country is going to be performing depending on where the country is from, because it costs a lot of money to get a horse around and it is better if the place you’re competing at frequently is 2 hours down the road.
Moffatt: Yes. I will say this. The ranking system is somewhat flawed. There’s no perfect way to rank them. Any given horse and rider can be the best on any particular day. I try to avoid reading too much into the rankings because they can be quite skewed based on numbers of horses shown and the events available in a particular area. They are better, probably, as metadata rather than individually representative of any one particular rider’s performance.
Jacobsen: What have been some other criticisms of those rankings?
Moffatt: It is impossible to make it perfect. So, I am hesitant to give major criticisms. Not all events are created equal. We have no way of really separating that. We say, “Okay, there is a 3*, 4*, 5*. That’s great. It is, usually, based on money and jump size.” There’s a certain amount of money and jump size corresponds to that. A 5* is always difficult. Let me start there, a 5* where all of the top 10 in the world show up is, probably, a lot different in terms of how difficult it is to actually win that day, than a 5* when no one in the top 100 shows up. It’s all relative. There’s no way to quantify that. I’m not trying to quantify that. I’m just saying that it is not necessarily representative. If you win Geneva, like last week, you could be pretty sure this person really did something there because everyone shows up to it. It is one of the grand slam events. I’m not going to pick on shows. If you win a smaller 5*, as in it is less well attended, that’s still fantastic and still extremely good for you. It may not carry the same weight as another one would. The rankings can be deceiving. The best rider in the world who only has one horse. You take a guy like Jeroen Dubbeldam. He consistently sits in the 400s and 500s in the world. It is not his priority. Yet, when he comes out, he can win the Olympics and the World Championships. He’s got something figured out.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
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Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 32: Hyde Moffatt on Getting Started and Rankings (1). January 2023; 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-1
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2023, January 1). The Greenhorn Chronicles 32: Hyde Moffatt on Getting Started and Rankings (1). In-Sight Publishing. 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-1.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 32: Hyde Moffatt on Getting Started and Rankings (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 2, 2023.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2023. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 32: Hyde Moffatt on Getting Started and Rankings (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (Spring). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-1.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 32: Hyde Moffatt on Getting Started and Rankings (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (January 2023). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-1.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2023) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 32: Hyde Moffatt on Getting Started and Rankings (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(2). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-1>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2023, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 32: Hyde Moffatt on Getting Started and Rankings (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 2, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-1>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 32: Hyde Moffatt on Getting Started and Rankings (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 2, 2023, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-1.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 32: Hyde Moffatt on Getting Started and Rankings (1) [Internet]. 2023 Jan; 11(2). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moffatt-1
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/06/03
Soul: Mind, spaceless time, comes from a chassis; chassis effects in spacetime; both mean soul, means infinite cascades.
See “Deathless”.
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/06/03
All: Every spatiotemporal event confined to fields’ perturbations for waves & particles; ‘self’-organizational latticeworks.
See “All”.
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
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Notes: Note, perturbation in medium in time; higher harmonics, mutual perturbations upon another.
See “Too much idle time for Sibelius”.
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In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/06/02
Love seems: Love is not white fire; it’s crimson embers; an emotional, relational ignis fatuus of the heart.
See “Apparently, love”.
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/06/02
Self-Sight: I am wise, because I understand the tones & timbres of silence; the meaning in everything, in emptinesses.
See “Self-Absent”.
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)
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Space as Being as Utility: The use of a thing is in absences; the being of a subject is in between spaces.
See “Negative image positive”.
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Medium (Personal)
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Life: A comedy written in tragic cold blue notes sung in firestorms.
See “Life”.
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2023/01/01
*Interview conducted January 13, 2022.*
Abstract
Leann (Pitman) Manuel’s bio states: “Leann was as good as born on a horse, and has been fortunate to work with them daily since her very early twenties. From Pony Club and 4H as a child, through national level competition and several World’s Show qualifications with her Quarter Horse as a teen, to some Dressage tests, a few Cowboy Challenge clinics, and the daily operations at Riding 4 Life today, Leann’s horsemanship practice continues to seek out anything and everything she may be able to learn or experience with horses. Leann is passionate about helping others realize the value of having horses in their lives – no matter the breed or creed – and she hopes to continue to grow and nurture the horsemanship community in her region well into the future.” Manuel discusses: hours; part-time employee; closest facility; women or men in the staff; infinite funds; facilities; suitability; feral horses; equestrian industry in Canada; an expensive industry in general; politicization connected to a social elitism; the equine industry; the white collar versus the blue collar; challenged in the industry; therapeutic assisted development; an evidence-based foundation; evidence; horses teach us; and horsemanship versus equestrianism.
Keywords: blue collar, equestrianism, equine industry, evidence-based, facility, horsemanship, infinite funds, Leann (Pitman) Manuel, Okanagan, Riding 4 Life, show jumping, therapeutic riding, white collar.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 31: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Equestrianism and Horsemanship (4)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How many hours are you putting in a week?
Leann (Pitman) Manuel: Right now, my husband and I, combined, to keep this afloat. We, probably, put in 60 hours per week combined.
Jacobsen: How many are each part-time employee putting into it?
Manuel: None right now. Come March, 10 hours per week because they are all in school. I am picking up a half-time staffer, adult staffer, who is going to have a job created entitled Program Coordinator or something. An adult with experience teaching beginner lessons. Part of her work will include helping with the lesson planning, we do some group stuff, too, called “Barn Kids”. They are taught about colic and de-worming and all of the other stuff needed to own a horse some day. Because that is where some of my clients are headed. Some come to ride and that’s all they’ll ever come for. Some come for a season; some are lifers. I have a program called Lifers. They have access to us. They have a horse that they ride and do a report on. They have gelled as a group.
Jacobsen: What is the next closest facility to you? How far is it, approximately?
Manuel: The next closest that boards, teaches, and stuff like that.
Jacobsen: Yes.
Manuel: 15 or 20 minutes away.
Jacobsen: That’s a decent amount away.
Manuel: There are several like that in Summerland. There is one active in OK (Okanagan) Falls.
Jacobsen: Are there more women or men in the staff?
Manuel: I have a higher average of male participants because autism diagnosis tends to be skewed towards the male population rather than the female population. Although, that’s shifted. We have more young women and girls diagnosed. Access to proper diagnosis is getting better. They are realizing. Rhere are far more females who have it. Because of the way women are socialized, it gets missed.
Jacobsen: If you have infinite funds, what would you do with Riding 4 Life?
Manuel: Ha!
Jacobsen: It is always the barrier.
Manuel: There have been a few pieces of property that have opened up for sale. A 10-minute drive out of city centre Penticton. Super close, as close as we are in terms of driving time, I would like one of those properties. We’d probably double out program capacity. I would probably set up some boarding. The other problem is people who want to buy a horse. I have a dozen in my program who want to own a horse, someday. I don’t even know if I helped them find a horse; if I helped them buy one, I don’t know one that would be a half-hour away. I would want to get an entry level boarding for the public. Maybe, for vetted members of the public who fit the flavour of what we’re doing at our facility, we are mainly a non-competitive facility too. It is to protect the client base who I have, and their needs and wants. I am, personally, not going to coach somebody at a horse show right now. I will refer them to a colleague, instead. I would love to include some farm animals. Maybe, include another service provider that is similar, there are, certainly, a few more colleagues who are propertyless. They are trying to do their thing. But when you don’t have the ability to give input or shape the facility that you’re working on, it is really hard to do your thing and really offer what it is that you have to offer. I can think of a couple.
I would love to invite them onto the property and say, “You set up your program how you do it on the program.” I’d have covered arenas and some farm to table stuff. Some farmed beef. Quarter horses are incredibly prolific. They are common. They are more affordable. Their mental health is supported by having a job or chasing some cattle around, sort of like a border collie.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] Some facilities will focus on warmblood. Others will focus on thoroughbred. What are the logistical reasons for the split?
Manuel: So, at the higher end of that economy, if you are a business owner, you are specializing. Maybe, most of your contacts are in that industry with those breeders. Or if it is certain disciplines, they have preferences for certain looks, breeds, or styles, of horses. If your skill set is in the dressage arena, you are going to be more keen to have the breeds of horses that are best suited or the trendiest. Personally, a horse is a horse. I can do horsemanship with any horse. I have a teen. We got her on a horse. My lesson horse is a bit spicier. So, she can learn how to work with her. I have an older bony Arabian who packs around some kids. We call him “The Grumpy Old Man”.
Jacobsen: I saw that one.
Manuel: It is attached to certain kids. He would do well with just one person. It is something Arabians are known for; they are very loyal to their people. I have some thoroughbred and thoroughbred crosses. They tend to be more sensitive. They work well with our equine assisted learning program because the immediate response of the horse helps people learn the subtleties and get a handle on themselves. Thoroughbreds are a little bit more quick to respond. It is a good model for PTSD work because they’re wired. When that adrenaline hits, they just run. As soon as a horse’s fight or flight hits in the thoroughbreds, it requires more precise and quick acumen. Whatever breed of horse, you pick. It needs to do the thing you want to do. I never got to pick the breeds of horses. Most of the breeds in my possession were rescues or were given, or were next to nothing. Nobody wanted them. So, I did what I could with those horses. It does seem to me: People either fall in love with the discipline and end up with the breeds best suited to the discipline, or if they are a stud owner, they end up with the breeds of horses that breed well with that stallion because there’s some mixed breed stuff going on.
If you have a Lusitano stallion, some quarter horses will want to be bred with them. Then you have an Azteca. Some of it is market driven breeding-wise. Some of it is, unfortunately, ignorance. It is like racism. The idea is that this is the superior breed. Actually, if you take that horse and put it in this environment, then it will die fast. Because that is not where it was selectively bred for years. I mean thousands of years. For me, the true horseman of this horse world. I think there are very few who are consummate master horse men and women. They can tell you the values, the strengths, and the weaknesses, of each breed. They will say something similar. “What do you want to do? What’s your dream? You want to chase cows. You want a quarter horse. You grew up in Portugal. Then you want a Lusitano or something.” Culture and tradition go into it too. It is another piece of it.
Jacobsen: So, it is less about better or worse horse. It is more about suitability.
Manuel: For me, at least.
Jacobsen: What is the purpose? What is the suitability to this purpose?
Manuel: Totally.
Jacobsen: Some of the websites for the facilities list the horses as staff.
Manuel: Yes.
Jacobsen: What is the fun fact behind that?
Manuel: They are working.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] Fair enough.
Manuel: I feed them. They work. So, I am ‘paying’ them. I calculate my costs. The operating costs of the business. I am trying to calculate my time. It tends to be the first thing to fall off when I want to pay my instructors. There is a piece for the horse. So, it is a way of tracking whether a horse is earning its keep or not. The other thing some of us are guilty of: Accumulating horses and to what end. Do they have a purpose? Do they have a job? Why do you have so many horses? A very near to us, a gal who trains and teaches and flips horses. She has a habit of accumulating more horses than she can’t get ridden and trained, and then sold back out into good lives. So, she accumulates a lot of freeloaders. It is a real threat to her business because she has to feed them. They are taking up space. She cannot put up a boarder to occupy that space. There’s the, maybe not, making decisions that are business-based enough. The other fascinating fact of this industry is the rescues. So, really big hearts doing good work, if I am really pressed and someone says, “Would you slaughter a horse?” I would say, “I guess, yes.” I cannot definitively agree with horse slaughter. It is a distinct problem. Something in the Okanagan that doesn’t exist on the coast. We have feral horses. It is grassland. It is cattle country all the way up North into Kamloops. There are grazing lands and cattle guards.
Jacobsen: If a horse gets loose, it becomes feral, potentially. Because these things run 50 km/h, easily.
Manuel: They do. Apex Mountain, which is one side of the valley here, to the West as I sit here now, a few years ago, there was an aerial view of the area. There were about 500 head count of feral horses. They are not ‘wild’ horses. Good luck genetically proving that any of these horses were indigenous here. You go further into the Chilcotin. There is some genetic evidence of there having been some actual wild herds. But not so much in the Okanagan, it is a couple of hundred years of cattle industry and horses used for transportation. They end up turned out, get loose, and become feral. In the last 50 or so years, horse owners on Indian land or Penticton Indian Band or a few other places have turned their horses loose because they live like that. Suddenly, there is a feral horse population.
Jacobsen: Are these feral horses ever accepted into indigenous herds? Is this ever a thing?
Manuel: This is the thing. What constitutes an indigenous herd? There are some things on the Okanagan news lately. The Penticton Herald, etc., because a lot more snow has brought some of them down looking for feed and water. They have been right along the highway. It is a hazard for them and for traffic. Penticton Indian Band has mentioned this is a nuisance issue for them. They are equally as frustrated. Inevitably, there will be folks who want to rescue horses. “Oh my gosh, they are starving.” Yes, living in the wild is harsh, our horses live better and longer because we meet their needs. Like anybody who was weak or not fat enough going into Winter, they’ll look bad. We file their teeth. In the wild, the weak do not survive. If we want to help the larger community of horses, we have to make some decisions. There are some groups who work with the bands, OKIB (Okanagan Indian Band), the Vernon Jurisdiction, the Oliver-Osoyoos Jurisdiction, they are pulling some of the horses out of the herd. They are making decisions of who should go where.
A lot of the young horses, yearling, etc., just old enough to come off mom, are being run through rescues being born free. They will go, get started, and will get auctioned. The funds from auctions will go to feed the herd that they are currently training and trying to bring the horses into our human economy that can survive; that will find homes, be cared for, and be safe if handled by experienced people. Sometimes, they are pulling horses off these herds that have either been feral too long, are not trainable, have health issues, and whatnot. They are going for slaughter. Those funds buy hay, etc. This whole rescue world in the horse industry has become more and more of a thing. In fact, once in a while, Horse Council BC sends out a survey to its membership asking, “What part of the industry are you in: competitive rider, recreational rider, or rescue?” Rescue is a category. I’m like, “Oh my.” [Laughing] There are enough folks involved in this now that it is a whole category of the horse industry. Yikes, yikes, I have a lot of thoughts about that.
Jacobsen: What are the parts of the equestrian industry in Canada that are highly politicized?
Manuel: Highly politicized, racing, it is where you find the most money, probably going to find the most politics.
Jacobsen: What kind of money are we taking here, as we are talking about an expensive industry in general?
Manuel: I would say the money that is, actually, measured from a business sense. If CRA, you pull numbers down from CRA in the horse industry. Horse racing is viewed as the most economically active sector and high-end competition, so Olympians. Those levels are highly politicized. When I showed up, a rusty trailer showed up with nowhere knowing how we got there.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Manuel: It is true. We’d pull up from Vancouver Island. If you took the ferry after 11 p.m., it was half the cost. We wouldn’t arrive until 2 p.m. because we couldn’t afford it. We pulled up in this rig worth more than my parents’ house and property at the time. I’m sure. $120,000 of rig in 1991. You’re like, “Oh my God.” [Laughing] I pulled up in this rinky dink rusted trailer looking like it is from a bad spaghetti Western in 1967. My horse comes out of that. I go compete the next day and beat some of these people. It is highly politicized, for sure. Because there’d be days when the judges alone; sometimes, things are double and triple judged. I go in a ring. I do the same obstacle course. One judge placed me first. Another judge places me second. A third judge doesn’t place me at all. Meanwhile, every other placing, all of the other professionals are there in about the same way with a few switching places here and there. You cannot tell me that is not political. I was the only non-pro rider in the class. One judge just feels one non-pro doesn’t belong there and will ignore me, very political.
Jacobsen: Is this politicization connected to a social elitism?
Manuel: Social elitism, I would say so. The judge might argue, “Why are you in a class with people who make their living? This is part of how they make their living. You need to go back into your division.” They would say it is, probably, not elitism.
Jacobsen: How do they define it?
Manuel: They define it as respect for industry. I call it misogyny. I call it colonialism. The fact I was female and the rest were male professionals is a thing. It’s pretty fascinating.
Jacobsen: How long has the equine industry, in its modern context or form, been present in Canada? So, the professionalization of equestrianism, broadly speaking, in Canadian society. Because, in years prior, a horse was a sign of being poor.
Manuel: It depended. It depended on what you did with them. If you did thoroughbred horse racing, that was a thing. If you did polo, it, absolutely, depended on what you did with them. Having mostly grown up with quarter horses, once in a while, I could borrow the fancy dressage saddle and could fake it at the dressage test, the local dressage test. I would beat all of them too. They’d be like, “You can’t do that on your quarter horse.” “You might want to check with your judge about that.” There are cultural artifacts still floating through these disciplines as well. Dressage, jumping definitely carries some elitism in it. Horse racing, as far as breeders involved in it and the trainers that they hire, a lot of money goes into buying, training, selling, these horses. There is a lot of old money there. A lot of them look down their nose at those of us who ride in our Western equipment.
Jacobsen: There is a similar thing with shanty Irish and lace curtain Irish. Shanty Irish as the poor; lace curtain Irish as the poor.
Manuel: I came from the more blue-collar side of the horse industry. I competed a bit with the white collars. “Who are you?”
Jacobsen: What is a tell, to an individual in the white collar versus the blue collar? Is it not having the right brand?
Manuel: I have trouble – literally – understanding from the outside looking up [Laughing] or in. My guess is that it challenges a lot of things that they think are true. Then there I am, I am not following the rules. How can that happen? It creates a cognitive dissonance that they’re uncomfortable with and don’t know what to do with. It comes to the idea of what you need to do and to accomplish to get where they are. “How can she at the ripe old age of 17 and 18 be able to ride like me?” Good question, I haven’t been able to figure that one out, except that it is what I did with every spare moment of my time from 11-years-old onwards. I rode anything I could get my hands on. I, probably, shouldn’t have. I fell off hundreds of times in my earlier years. That teaches you a lot about what not to do again. [Laughing] Then you try something else. “Don’t try that either, it didn’t work.” For a lot of them, it really challenged what they thought was real and true about their lives, and who they were.
Jacobsen: What needs to be challenged in the industry? What needs to be discussed in the industry explicitly?
Manuel: There are a few categories. One of the categories is that we almost need to be recognized: Horses’ impact on society needs to honoured. The last 100 years, the internal combustion engine, horses went from everyday life for so many people, especially in North America because it is so big. If horses were not part of your life somehow, I don’t know how you survived outside of urban areas. 100 years ago, they were rare and extremely small as a portion of the population. It is almost like a mass extinction of some basic equine involvement or horsemanship practice. Then it has died off in a couple of generations. That’s pretty quick. Again, the writing curriculum, the good horsemen are in their 60s, 70s, and 80s, and they are talking about their mentors who were 20, 30 years their senior. We’ve lost that. So, that recognition by our governments and culture as a whole. We are really missing something.
I think that that longing, missing, or recognition, might be missing, or people may be unable to put their finger on it. But so many people when they ask me, “What do you do?” I tell them about Riding 4 Life and what I do. “Horses are so healing. There is something about them.” I’m like, “Yes, it is cellular. A generation or two ago, they were a part of everyday life. If you have read anything about epigenetics, it wouldn’t seem that weird anymore as to why you have that longing.” It is – literally – in the psyche of our human species and development for 1,000s of years. Our historians are still and researchers are still pinning down the debate as to when were horse domesticated. The more resources put into figuring it out. The further back that number goes. I think last I was listening and looking at it. Those estimates were at 8,000 and 10,000 years ago. It keeps reaching further and further back the more we look into it. To go back to Malcolm Gladwell needs to reach a tipping point, before we reach a value of horsemanship, not just agriculture, it is one piece. I think it is part of this equine therapeutic movement in mental health now.
Jacobsen: When did the therapeutic assisted development begin?
Manuel: There are a lot of different answers to that. In the 70s, there were some definitive evidence with a human on a horse stimulates the brain. It was some first evidence base in our Western world medical view of it. I think a lot of notable people have been commenting on that for decades before that. One of the famous quotes from Winston Churchill. ‘There is nothing so good for the inside of a man as the outside of a horse.’ It has been misquoted. I think we’ve known that. A lot of Indigenous populations have acknowledged the horse as healing in their mythology forever. Certainly, I am aware of some nations in the U.S., for example, who view the Dun horse as a healing horse. It happens that the colour, genetically speaking, is a “primitive colour” because those colours can be brought back to horses in Kazakhstan and Mongolia. The hippo-therapy one, the research about the human motor cortex stimulated when being on the horse and the human pelvis aligning with the horse pelvis is the one most familiar to me. Because it is the one that gets access to me for funding for autism services. I am most familiar with that one.
But I am sure there are several. Therapeutic riding associations became more of a thing in the 70s and 80s. Some of them date back further to the 50s. It is not, exactly, new. But I don’t think it started to happened on this scale until the last 10 or 20 years, at the most.
Jacobsen: Is this most a move towards an evidence-based foundation in some small parts of equestrianism?
Manuel: I’m sure. There are blips that are evidence-based. I’m so happy they happened. Then you will get these other practitioners starting their own thing. I think, “It sounds fluffy.” Then I am frustrated again. It is a slow march forward and, hopefully, improves as we go. That’s one. That recognition of the history of horsemanship and our human history. Honestly, I don’t think that we would be the humans we are today without the horse. I don’t think we would have made it. Land bridges and mass migrations of populations; I don’t think it would have happened without the horse and other livestock like cattle and sheep, as part of people’s survival. But the horse is what allowed us to move that far.
Jacobsen: What part of the industry seems to lack evidence? Those that can be considered, not a standard practice but, a practice and don’t have the wherewithal to substantiate themselves. They’re based on error.
Manuel: Based on error, again, there are quite a few of them. The first one is this Natural Horsemanship movement. To me, it is expert marketing. [Laughing]
Jacobsen: [Laughing]
Manuel: It is fantastic marketing. In fact, it is most commonly attributed to Pat Parelli. He is not the first person to put it in a book. Several other notable master horsemen have used that term. Some of them were making the point that to say horsemanship is natural. It is false. We have to, as horseman, become familiar with and experts at horse’s state to become experts at something unnatural. Evolution didn’t necessarily lead us here, again, 10,000 years. Human history is a speck on the beach. It is really, really quite small. Then there’s the argument of this natural and better way as opposed to the old way. Some of our proponents of this type of horsemanship are guilty of that. The old way just a pocket of it in a certain region of the world, which seemed like the whole world to them – speaking of North American culture, because this is on U.S. soil. The gentler ways, the softer ways… I would argue truly successful horsemanship has been non-violent the whole way. There are varying degrees of success that have shown up. You can get some success using methods that are, even by my standards, quite violent. I am not opposed to standing my ground as a horse, but I define violence a bit differently too. Natural Horsemanship, where did that come from? It is like Santa being in a red suit. It is like, “Do you realize who started that?”
Jacobsen: You mentioned that there were a few. Any others that come to the top?
Manuel: It depends on who you ask. The difference between the disciplines, dressage, often, like to see themselves as distinctly different. “We do it this way because this is the pure way or the way that matches with the horse.” So, one of the comments that I hear from the average horse owner: Western riders were always gunning to ride on one rein with a loose hand to have a hand free. I do demonstrations where the bridle comes off the horse. I do not need a bridle on its head. It’s all my energy and body movement and everything else a horse can pick up from me to direct the horse. I have two hands free. But the one hand free comes from ranch work. I need to get a calf, need to open a gate. It’s a horse that works. If I cross train a bit, and if I go to a clinic with a dressage trainer, good horsemanship is good horsemanship. Core skills are core skills. These are my people.
Then there are the other people who are like, “You sit crooked and your posture is wrong, because you ride with one hand all the time.” I ride with two hands most of the time. But if I am on a finished horse at a competition, then I will ride with one hand. Those things. Then they try to tell me the dressage way is the better way; and I will get much better results if I do it that way. The Sun will shine, and the clouds will part. I have been at this a long time. I listen, listen, and listen, to the bits that I can take away that do improve the horsemanship. There are days when I need to vent about it. It is annoying and unfortunate. We cannot come together on the common ground pieces. Part of me wants to remind them where dressage came from, originally. It is a hangover from the calvary. I hate to break it to them all. Calvary riders in war rode with one hand because they had a weapon in one hand. You might want to do the research into the history of your own discipline before you go speaking about it that way. Not many people know that. For me, it outs them.
Jacobsen: You see them as fluffy.
Manuel: Yes, fluffy.
Jacobsen: It is someone in a business meeting coming inappropriate attire. They look lightweight. They are not necessarily bad, but lightweight and seemingly ignorant in this domain.
Manuel: Sometimes, that term “fluffy”. I run into it in those businesses that are therapeutic. If you want to have a therapeutic practice with horses, even more so, your horseman chops have to be there. Whenever you put inexperienced humans there with any horse, you are responsible for that relationship. If you don’t have the chops to understand all the dynamics there, you are putting people in harms way. “But doesn’t it just healing?” This is anthropomorphizing of horses.
Jacobsen: Sure, they’re putting human qualities on a horse.
Manuel: It can read emotions well, but it can’t think about what happened yesterday or what might happen and worry about it. It doesn’t have that ability. It is only dealing with you right now in front of you, and all of the emotions that you’re experiencing. It is only going to respond and react. If fight-flight, it is react. If calm, it is response. All to right now. Looking for professional development is tough for me because I pay some money and take some time off, and I will listen to these folks, “Oh my God, there were 15 things wrong with those beginners.” Cringing, things I would not allow in my yard.
Jacobsen: These weaved issues. The issue of non-standardization is connected to the issue of poor understanding of the management of a trainer with an inexperienced person – let alone with an inexperienced human being with a particular condition that limits their scope of functionality in life.
Manuel: One of my assessment tools for folks. How far have they come in horsemanship? It is how readily they project onto the horse things that have nothing to do with the horse. Do they see the horse or something else? That’s how you know they’re skills are coming up.
Jacobsen: What can horses teach us?
Manuel: You don’t grow and learn with horses without first getting a handle on yourself. Every time my horsemanship progresses, a key piece to that is I’ve healed, grown, or gained wisdom into me. Because if I don’t run me well, I don’t engage the world well. It is true for horses. True for so many things. All my relationships, it is true for horses, too. I can talk my out of a lot of things. You can’t talk your way out of a horse. They will see you, how you are in the moment because they can’t lie.
Jacobsen: If a horse is happy, what are the immediate tells? If a horse is unhappy, what are the immediate tells?
Manuel: I think happiness is more of a human concept.
Jacobsen: Positive affect as opposed to negative affect.
Manuel: The tells on a horse are either stressed or at ease is a better way to describe the spectrum of arousal on a horse because they are a prey animal. At ease, it doesn’t matter what breed of horse. They tend to have a slack, level top-line. An alert or on alert horse will raise its head. How they carry their ears, it is part of the top-line through the ears. Relaxed floppy donkey ears are a sign of ease. Any sign of tension is a way along up the arousal continuum. Flat back is quite a ways down or quite a ways along the opposite of ease. “I have to fight or flee.” With that comes all kinds of facial expression, as humans have recognizable facial expressions with our emotions, when you spend time with horses, hopefully, you will learn what those mean. I have some horses with some idiosyncrasies.
I know some horses who hold one nostril higher. It tends to coordinate with what back foot they’re resting because it goes along the spine. Pain in a horse is difficult for a human to read because of how they hold their face. They are not alert. They are not fully relaxed either. They are a bit distant. They try to dissociate from their pain as well. Rhythm, anything a person doing a rhythm with flies in the shade. When they break the rhythm, something is going wrong. That’s why, when we ride, if we have no rhythm, we will irritate the crap out of that horse. Rhythm is a soothing, harmonizing, connecting thing for them. The rhythm of their foot falls, a horse that is long and low. Its stride length gets lower or a slower beat, whatever gait they’re at; there’s a lot of relaxation there. When their feet strides get shorter and quicker, you see that a lot. This is when they’re being ridden in particular. A rider is, in a big way, interfering way causing stress and discomfort. A horse that won’t stand and rest at any point. If they need to continually move, pain, worry, loneliness, or if they don’t feel safe in their surroundings, or if a horse never lies down and has some health issues or isn’t in a herd where they feel safe, I run my horses in groups or pods because we work with beginners.
The herd has to be comfortable with each other. If they accidentally do bumper ponies, I can trust the herd’s familiarity and respect, and dynamic of them, that no one gets hurt. If I go on my show horse, and go on a riding ring, and collide with somebody, it can get ugly pretty quick. Beginners who play bumper ponies can get hurt. I get my horses familiar with the whole herd together. Quite often, on a warm sunny day, there are a few standing and one or two sitting two. One or two standing watch while the rest are taking a rest. The boss mare is watching out for the herd. If we see out in the herd that there is a lot of movement, nobody is really standing around. Nobody is at ease. We know something happened on the property. Maybe, the bear in close behind. One morning, you couldn’t see what happened. I looked at the property and the rest of the horses. We realized a horse a few packs over was colicky.
Jacobsen: Are there any aspects of equestrianism that we haven’t covered, but could cover?
Manuel: The only thing I want to mention, for me, is a distinction between being an equestrian and being a horseman. The reason I think there is a differentiation. I can see people ride and can identify people who are great equestrians, not great horsemen. I can identify folks who are great horsemen, but, in the ranks of the equestrian world – which I view as the competitive world with the judges, are unorthodox. It is possible to be a great equestrian and a great horseman.
Jacobsen: Is it a similar difference between a horseman is more of a cowboy and an equestrian is more of a show jumper?
Manuel: No, I think I know some great horseman. Ian Millar is a fantastic horseman. Mario Deslauriers is also a great horseman, in my opinion. They are consummate professionals and masters at not only the riding and training of a horse – the horse’s whole. When they take it home, its living environment and the psychology of the situation. Thinking of my own immediate horse community, there is a rider who can ride fire-breathing off the track thoroughbreds, but who can for a moment make them look wonderful. When she stops, it becomes every bit as dangerous. She is a great equestrian. She can ride anything. Kudos to you, and looking great doing it. She will compete and could go far and would be a rider who could compete at the Olympics and do really, really, really well. But she doesn’t have the ability to change that horse in how it experiences life, how it views people. She is not affecting that horse’s experience of people well enough to hand that lead rope off.
Sometimes, you meet horses that don’t do that for people in a noticeable way. I think master horseman do and can tell you all about it. I think I put myself in the horseman category more than the equestrian category. I excelled at the events where you had to get things done. You have to do an obstacle course. The horse’s maneuvers were fantastic. I looked at doing it as 5’2” pudgy teenager in an unorthodox way. But in the course where they score you, I beat them. How do you explain that, gentlemen? I made a career out of taking the fire-breathing dragon horses and change them, so I could hand the lead rope to others and make them more safe. Then advise people. “This is the horse’s needs and temperament, and here’s what you need to watch for and be a steward for this horse,” and who might be appropriate, and who isn’t. Sometimes, you meet horses who are so traumatized or neurochemical makeup is too sensitive. I have one here.
They will always be here. I don’t know many people who could be successful riding him. He is too sensitive. He is a sweetheart. I can give a lead rope to him for kids. He is a great therapeutic tool, expressive, and responsive. But he is a big boy. If he is nervous when you are on, you are coming off because is just so big. So, equestrian versus horseman, a horseman describes a broader skill set.
Jacobsen: It sounds like equestrian, in your terminology, means the original meaning of a horse rider.
Manuel: Yes.
Jacobsen: As opposed to a horseman as someone who deals with the general arc of a life of a horse plus riding.
Manuel: It is one thing you do with a horse, riding.
Jacobsen: It is, probably, the smallest thing you do with a horse.
Manuel: I know, right? [Laughing]
Jacobsen: I mean, put it this way: How hard is it to find a good stall cleaner? Someone who can muck well.
Manuel: Surprisingly hard. I get so many emails, “I want to help and volunteer.” It is good nobody can see me when I read them, because I am awful, “Oh, hell no.” Because so much energy goes into teaching someone to go into a paddock and being with the horses and mucking.
Jacobsen: Not being afraid of horses is probably a big step in their favour in being decent at cleaning. Cleaning is an extremely hard job. To maintain a standard, to do it fast.
Manuel: One of my assessment tools for clients who want to be more involved is the Lifers program. “How much is it? I want to sign my kid up.”
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Manuel: That kid can’t even put their saddle pad away. The kid who wants to stay, wants to ignore the parent to get them into the car, and who picked up the poo in the yard, as many excuses as they can come up with to stay here. I am all for it. If the parent says, “How much does it cost for them to stay in? They’re in every time.”
Jacobsen: Leann, it has been a very lovely and educational conversation. I appreciate both the opportunity and your time today.
Manuel: Thank you, the questions were great. I don’t often get to talk about this stuff in detail.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 31: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Equestrianism and Horsemanship (4). January 2023; 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-4
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2023, January 1). The Greenhorn Chronicles 31: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Equestrianism and Horsemanship (4). In-Sight Publishing. 11(2). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-4.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 31: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Equestrianism and Horsemanship (4). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 2, 2023.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2023. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 31: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Equestrianism and Horsemanship (4).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (Spring). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-4.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 31: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Equestrianism and Horsemanship (4).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 2 (January 2023). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-4.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2023) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 31: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Equestrianism and Horsemanship (4)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(2). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-4>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2023, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 31: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Equestrianism and Horsemanship (4)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 2, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-4>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 31: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Equestrianism and Horsemanship (4).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 2, 2023, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-4.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 31: Leann (Pitman) Manuel on Equestrianism and Horsemanship (4) [Internet]. 2023 Jan; 11(2). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/manuel-4
License
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© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/12/22
Abstract
Sean Jobin is a 29-year-old Grand Prix show jumping rider representing Canada on the FEI International circuit. After working his way up through the regional and national tours, he’s quickly made a name for himself at the international level with six podium finishes and two wins in the last year. He credits much of his recent success to the use of innovative training techniques and advanced analytics, developed in partnership with Dr. Worden. For the 2022 season, he was signed to the Major League Show Jumping Tour as a member of the Northern Lights team, where he will compete at the FEI5* level, and hopes to win a World Championship title for Canada. He has placed 5th in the 2019 Canadian Championships and received the Baker Award, 2nd in the 2021 $137,000 FEI3* Tryon International Grand Prix (First FEI 3* Grand Prix Podium), and 1st in the 2022 FEI4* Open Welcome at the Live Oak International. Jobindiscusses: the choice to make this a career; the pivotal influences and inspirations; key opportunities and breaks; the postsecondary education; winnings and performance; technologies; training regimens; key lessons; high-level international performance; Double Clear LLC; newer riders; and the most controversial topic.
Keywords: Double Clear LLC, Emily Rickert, Eric Lamaze, FEI, Grand Prix rider, Hickstead, Hugh Graham, Major League, Mike Grinyer, Sean Jobin, The Greenhorn Chronicles, University of Guelph.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 30: Sean Jobin on Personal Story, Work, and Views in Show Jumping
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: As with most professional equestrians, there was a moment or a series of experiences leading into the choice to make this a career. What was that moment or series of experiences for you?
Sean Jobin: Ever since I can remember, I’ve always wanted to be a Grand Prix rider. I loved old horse movies and stories, and my mom used to be a groom and eventer, so she introduced show jumping to me. Horses have this natural quality unlike any animal, where despite their strength and difference, they can connect with humans on a very real level. Basically, all through human history, horses have been helping humans.
Jacobsen: Who were the pivotal influences and inspirations for you, growing up?
Jobin: I grew up during a pretty special time in North American showjumping, being able to watch Eric Lamaze win the individual gold medal and the Canadian team win silver at Beijing was a really big deal. Watching Eric and Hickstead compete on the international stage and consistently be the best was a huge inspiration to me to keep going.
Jacobsen: What were some of the key opportunities and breaks for your career in show jumping?
Jobin: I was lucky in my junior years to work for stables like Mike Grinyer and Hugh Graham where I could get experience riding a lot of young horses. I never really did any major youth championships, but the opportunities afforded by stables like these willing to give me a chance to ride several high-quality horses was huge.
Jacobsen: Some professional equestrians will take a break to pursue postsecondary education. How did the postsecondary education help you?
Jobin: I completed my Bachelors at University of Guelph online, so I had a bit of a unique experience. I think it really helped me expand how I approached the sport, and it was where I first became interested in pursuing different professionals’ point of view. On the other hand, I don’t think I could have done it any way other than online. I needed to pursue opportunities outside of Canada to further my career, and there were no similar opportunities available in Ontario.
Jacobsen: In terms of winnings and performance, what have been the most meaningful successes in the career for you?
Jobin: We’ve had a couple great wins at the national and international level this year, but for sure my highlight so far is getting my first podium finish in the 5* Major League Grand Prix this past month in California. It was only my fifth appearance in a 5* Grand Prix, and given it’s the highest level of showjumping sport in the world it’s the one that sticks out most.
Jacobsen: What technologies have you incorporated into traditional training regimens?
Jobin: We’ve used a lot of fancy stuff going from wearable technology that track biomechanics and biometrics along with more advanced video analysis. Combined with less complex methods like data tracking and training notes, it’s really helped give us a chance to view our horses in a more nuanced way. Sport is inherently emotional, but you can’t let your emotions drive your training or decisions when it comes to horses, you have to accept them for who they are, and this approach helps us do that.
Jacobsen: How have these complicated the training regimens while making them more modern and robust?
Jobin: Not much to be honest. There’s the usual growing pains of adjusting competition warm up and cool down procedures along with the odd technical issues, but I enjoy it.
Jacobsen: What are the key lessons from warm-up to riding to cooldown for jockeys/riders to take into account for show jumping?
Jobin: I’d say mental preparedness effects a horse to a really high degree, a lot of warm up can turn into over training for a horse if the rider is too hyped up before a big class and essentially trying too hard in the warmup. It’s best to save the jump for the ring and try to maintain the horses focus rather than winning in the warmup ring.
Jacobsen: What seem like the sources – the combination of attributes – of the high-level international performance for you?
Jobin: To me, cleverness and enjoyment are absolutely key in top showjumpers. There’s no way around it, if a horse doesn’t love jumping, they won’t jump. The best horses also figure out ways to win even when in tough positions.
Jacobsen: How do you run Double Clear LLC, front to back?
Jobin: I’m in a great position right now where I can focus on my career competing at the higher levels, but I still train a select few clients and deal horses. I’m lucky to have a great team behind me that helps carry a lot of the load. My girlfriend Emily Rickert has taken over hunter and equitation training for me as well as riding my top horses when I’m away. My assistant trainer Heather Jarvis has really stepped up as a great high-level trainer, and we’ve had our grooms step up and perform at the 5* FEI level to be amazing support this year.
Jacobsen: For newer riders, what are the most important work ethic, and moral, lessons to get across to them about show jumping and maintaining high standards?
Jobin: I think working hard is a given in any high-level sport or industry, but it’s probably not enough by itself. At the top level, pretty much everyone works hard, and you can’t coast on the talent that hard work cultivates. An athlete needs to constantly re-invent themselves, because the sport is always changing as everybody looks to gain competitive advantages. When I look at the very best athletes in and outside our sport, they are always pushing every year to see their sport from different perspectives, trying different approaches and dropping standards that aren’t working.
Jacobsen: What is the most controversial topic in the show jumping community at the moment – taboo topic? What could broach this topic amongst/between members of this community?
Jobin: There’s probably a few too many to count, but I’ll weigh in. There’s the obvious issues at the top level about whether the new Olympic format is good or bad for the future of our sport. On one hand, it is incredibly difficult as a rider losing a drop score on the team and it can put you in very difficult positions, but I also understand that the previous format was confusing to new viewership. I also think the future of the sport needs to be taken into consideration. As experience with horses becomes less and less common, people start to lose understanding of horses and why they like showjumping. In turn showjumping becomes viewed as an elitist hobby that’s prohibitively expensive, especially at the top level. I think this sentiment is true, but not cause for giving up, it’s cause to look for different ways of succeeding than old paths.
In my opinion, you have to go really far to find someone who doesn’t like horses, they are that special. And as much as I love history and tradition, there is a way to synthesize these customs while expanding the appeal of the sport and making sure the happiness and welfare of our horses takes precedence.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Sean.
Jobin: Absolutely, thank you.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 30: Sean Jobin on Personal Story, Work, and Views in Show Jumping. December 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jobin
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, December 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 30: Sean Jobin on Personal Story, Work, and Views in Show Jumping. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jobin.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 30: Sean Jobin on Personal Story, Work, and Views in Show Jumping. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 30: Sean Jobin on Personal Story, Work, and Views in Show Jumping.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jobin.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 30: Sean Jobin on Personal Story, Work, and Views in Show Jumping.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (December 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jobin.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 30: Sean Jobin on Personal Story, Work, and Views in Show Jumping’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jobin>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 30: Sean Jobin on Personal Story, Work, and Views in Show Jumping’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jobin>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 30: Sean Jobin on Personal Story, Work, and Views in Show Jumping.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jobin.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 30: Sean Jobin on Personal Story, Work, and Views in Show Jumping [Internet]. 2022 Dec; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jobin
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/12/22
*Interview conducted December 9, 2022.*
Abstract
Kimberley Martens was born in St. Albert on February 28, 1989. Her Dutch parents moved back to Holland when she was 8/9 months old. They lived in Canada for 5 years. They were going to stay, but her grandfather became very ill. She began riding at the age of five on a cousin’s pony. At 7, she got approval to enter a riding school. At age 9, she acquired her first pony. She started full-time at the age of 16. She went to David Hopper in America at the age of 18 for 1 year. She went back to Holland and trained un Peter Geerink. At 27, she started her own stable. Now, she is based on the South of Holland with her husband, who is her trainer. Martens discusses: getting involved in horses’ influential people; accessibility of the sport; gender neutrality in the sport; financial backers as an issue; barriers for some; the skill of the rider and of the horse; girls and young women, and boys and young men in the sport; Kinmar Quality Hero; the Longines Global Champion Tour; the term ‘scope”; the * system; the best horses; the differentiating factors in competitions; great riders; social media; and the direction of the sport.
Keywords: Belgium, Canadian, Christian Ahlmann, Dutch, Eric Lamaze, Europe, George Morris, Hickstead, Holland, Ian Millar, Kimberley Martens, Kinmar Quality, Longines Global Champions Tour, Mac Cone, Marcus Ehning, Nations Cup, Netherlands, Peter Geerink, Spruce Meadows, The Greenhorn Chronicles.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 29: Kimberley Martens on Show Jumping, the Netherlands, Show Jumping Culture
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, this is Kimberley Martens. My first question for most equestrians who are on the international scene or who have made a bit of an impact on the international scene. What are some of the earlier moments for discovering an interest in horses or showing an inclination in getting involved in riding horses as you were younger?
Kimberley Martens: My cousin had a small barn. I went to go and visit her, often. That’s the only place I wanted to be at, since I was little girl. It was horses, just horses. I always wanted to make a living out of it. My parents thought it was a good idea. They are not horse people. They had no idea what it was, but, now, they are very supportive. They enjoy coming to the shows, watching me ride.
Jacobsen: How did you develop your skill set over time? Were there influential mentors or trainers, or was it a natural development over time?
Martens: I think I am naturally an easygoing rider. It is quite easy for me. I trained with a very famous Dutch rider, Peter Geerink. I worked for him. I’d say I really developed well there. Now, my husband is training me. He is making me a more consistent rider. He is really teaching me how I should ride and why I should ride my best. He’s fine-tuning me [Laughing].
Jacobsen: One thing I have noticed, at least, within the discipline of show jumping. Show jumping, itself, is truly a gender neutral sport. In the sense that, men or women, if they have the skill set, and if they have a good horse, they can perform very well internationally.
Martens: Absolutely.
Jacobsen: It is one of those things that has a wider range of accessibility for age groups as well. People like Ian Millar is riding into his 70s before retirement and going to the Olympics in that time as well. If we are taking a perspective of a career focus around show jumping itself, what tends to be the longevity of show jumpers themselves?
Martens: For the sport itself, it’s nice that the riders can stay in the sport for a very long time. It makes it difficult for the younger riders to step up and to do the higher level if that is what you mean. It is nice that the talented riders can do this job for a very long time.
Jacobsen: Even with the equal accessibility for men and women, and the longevity of riders to gain access in their teens and 20s, even up to retirement age and beyond, a cost of a really good horse (a 1.60m horse) can be prohibitive for most. They have to syndicate a horse. They have to get a backer for a horse who has a lot of capital. How do you see that barrier being overcome in many cases? How do you see it, in other cases, being insurmountable for others?
Martens: It is a difficult sport, I feel. You need someone who really supports you to keep the horse for you, in order to do the higher level. If you don’t have that, and if you are really, really talented, then you don’t have a chance to break through. I find that hard. We have a dealing stable. Now, I have one horse that I think can jump any class in the world. We are trying not to sell him for now [Laughing].
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Martens: It is difficult. We have younger ones. We sell. We buy some. If someone comes by and offers a lot of money, we can’t always say, “No”. I have one very, very good horse, which could do Spruce or whatever. When we sell that one, I will be mostly back to riding young horses. I might never ride a big class again if I never find another horse. I think some talented riders aren’t out there anymore because they don’t have someone who can support them and can keep the horse. For younger riders, it is difficult to find people who will support you. Because most of the time, if they have been in the horse world already, they have another rider or an older rider. I think there are only a few chances for the younger riders to get out there.
Jacobsen: In other words, in a sense, the financial backers are the people who come from people with money or those are the people who have developed a lot of capital over time in their own profession. They have an interest in show jumping and show jumpers, but they are already with people who they trust, respect, know they have a talent, and have worked with their horses. So, it sort of bars some people from getting entrance.
Martens: Yes.
Jacobsen: At the higher end of the show jumping world, is it more of a difference between the skill of the rider or the innate talent of the horse?
Martens: I think you need both. If you really want to do the highest level, you need both. The best rider in the world if he doesn’t have a horse that’s very talented. He can also not win classes. Maybe, once or twice. To stay at that level, you need a talented horse for sure and a talented rider. Even if the rider is not that talented and if they have an extremely good horse, for sure, they can go a long way. At the end of the day, the classes are so difficult, technical, and the time is so short. You need feeling and a bit of talent [Laughing], I think.
Jacobsen: Now, you’re in your early 30s. Yet, you’ve been riding for a while. How has the sport changed over time, in your time?
Martens: At the beginning, there were not so many international shows. Now, especially in this area, there are 3 or 4 2* shows every weekend.
Jacobsen: Wow.
Martens: It is easier to get in, but the level got so high even on the 2* level. They don’t want to have 25 clear rounds. They want to have 15. So, they are making the time shorter, the course more technical. Sometimes, the 2* are comparable with 3* here, because there are a lot of talented people here.
Jacobsen: Mac Cone in an earlier interview was noting this as well. He was saying that when he was beginning riding in the 60s, 70s, 80s. It wasn’t too, too many countries. Now, you have upwards of 80 or more countries involved in it. He was making a similar notion. That the internationalization of the sport makes it more difficult. Also, he was noting George Morris’ training style has become a common factor in most training styles, internationally, now. So, the training regimens are much the same. There are more people in the sport. So, the differentiating factors become more minute. It becomes more difficult to move up the ranks compared to before.
Martens: Absolutely. Because I can do most of the 2* shows, but to get to it is difficult here. You either need to buy yourself in or you need points. It’s hard to get those points if you can’t get to shows.
Jacobsen: There are aspects of equestrian culture, after approximately 14 months in the industry. I noticed a constant breaking of assumptions. Even doing this interview with Canadian show jumpers, I thought one had to be based on Canada. Yet, they can be based in France, the Netherlands, etc. I made some wrong assumptions. You are listed as Canadian riders. However, you’ll be based wherever you need to be based to get the sort of training, access to competitions and horses, etc. I hadn’t grasped that until reaching out to some of the Canadian riders. I noticed Canada produces really, really good women riders. At the lower level, there tends to be a very large number of girls and young women, not many adolescent boys and young men. At the top, though, you see mostly men. That’s on the international scene. What explains this difference we see, over time, in the development of riders, where you see more men at the top in the later stages, internationally, but seeing more girls and young women at the lower end?
Martens: Also, here, at the lower level, it is mostly girls. At the higher level, certainly, in Holland, there are more men than women at that level. In the smaller sport, there are a lot of girls and women riding.
Jacobsen: How do you think that plays out over time in terms of the girls dropping out over time and the boys continuing on into the international scene?
Martens: I think it is a tough world. For the guys, I think it is easier. I think they are taken a bit more serious than the women to be honest: dealing wise, riding wise. I think it also helps that a lot of guys have a lot of confidence. I think confidence is the key in the end. You need so much confidence when you go into the ring.
Jacobsen: This sort of confidence. Do you think this is something acculturated with show jumping culture as the boys go along, or is it self-selected for that small category of men who are overly confident in themselves and their abilities?
Martens: Oh! [Laughing] That’s a tough question.
Jacobsen: I don’t know [Laughing]. That’s why I’m asking.
Martens: I think they just have more confidence and are, maybe, a bit more outspoken. When they can find an owner who can keep a horse for them, they might step up to keep it. I think us women are more quiet. We wait until someone offers us a chance.
Jacobsen: Who is your current favourite horse?
Martens: In the long term or now?
Jacobsen: Oh! Good question, over the long term, your horses over the long term so far.
Martens: Kinmar Quality (Hero), the one I have now.
Jacobsen: That horse, which you mentioned earlier, that could jump any competition. How old is the horse, currently?
Martens: 9.
Jacobsen: If you are looking at a horse that is 9, which is that good, what is the longevity of a good horse in this industry, typically?
Martens: Some jump until they’re 16. Some until they’re 15. You need to get a bit lucky, of course. This one has a very, very good mindset. I think he’ll try when he’s 20. But you need to be lucky that they don’t get injured. It depends on what they do. If he is going to jump 2* for the rest of his life, or if he is going to do Nations Cup or bigger shows, when you do the bigger shows, it is harder on the horse.
Jacobsen: How do you compare the dietary regimens in the Netherlands compared to Canada? I understand, in general, not just in the Netherlands or Canada that the care of horses has extended their performance life.
Martens: Over here, the horse, of course, needs scope. They need to be fast. Apparently, if you want to do the Longines Global Champions Tour, you need, in my opinion, a different kind of horse. You need a horse that has all the scope and is careful. It doesn’t need to be the fastest horse. But if you look over here at Longines Global Champions Tour, for sure, you need a fast horse.
Jacobsen: If you look at the top times of this sport, they’re within the same second with zero faults. If you have one second back or a fault, you are not even in the top 10, basically. Does this go back to the internationalization of the sport making it more competitive?
Martens: Yes. Also, the horses get better. There are not a lot of courses that cannot be jumped anymore by a lot of horses.
Jacobsen: Where do, typically speaking, the best horses coming from? I’m told, “Europe.” But where in Europe?
Martens: I think Belgium.
Jacobsen: Why Belgium?
Martens: I think Holland was leading for many, many years. But I think they bred a bit too much towards quality. They lose scope. In Belgium, they just breed scope.
Jacobsen: What does that word “scope” mean in this sport?
Martens: That he can jump very big fences.
Jacobsen: What differentiates these 4* competitions from these 5* competitions?
Martens: The prize money.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Martens: [Laughing] The more stars it is, the more money you can make.
Jacobsen: When was this star (*) system put in place, approximately?
Martens: I have no idea, to be honest.
Jacobsen: Because if this was put into place to give a rough metric on the quality of a competition, the prize money, the difficulty, and so on, then this could be changed again to something like a 6* competition in some theoretical future, especially if the competition level is getting higher and higher and the number of people entering is getting higher and higher.
Martens: Because there are not a lot of shows that have as much as the Longines Global Champions Tour. It stops with the 5* and then the organizations can decide, but they do have to give a minimum of money to be a 5*.
Jacobsen: So, if you are looking at your career trajectory so far, and training with your husband to improve consistency of performance, how do you see you career progressing as the years go on? What are your goals?
Martens: Now, my goal is to, hopefully, represent Canada once in a Nations Cup. I hope this Summer because it would be good to do these shows, and to Spruce Meadows. I would love to do it. But for us to come over, it is very expensive. With all the horses at home, it all needs to be arranged. They need someone who actually supports us. Because, otherwise, it is, financially, not okay for us.
Jacobsen: I was also told many times. The cost for travel is simply a tremendous amount more compared to the past. I don’t know what the cost is. How much does it cost to get rider and horse and equipment over to a competition, including the price of boarding at the competitions, etc.?
Martens: I think that is around 10,000 Euros a horse, just the way there.
Jacobsen: Wow.
Martens: Also, you need to go home [Laughing]…
Jacobsen: …[Laughing]…
Martens: …or leave it there.
Jacobsen: Most people will bring more than one horse, correct?
Martens: Yes.
Jacobsen: That is incredibly expensive.
Martens: Yes, it is. But it would be my dream to ride there. It looks amazing.
Jacobsen: What differentiates Spruce Meadows and some of these other competition grounds? Is it the kind of grounding, the presentation area, the development of the course, course design? What really makes them that much better?
Martens: For sure, the ring, the grass ring, the audience there, and Calgary is, for every rider, a treat to go there. It is a show everybody wants to go to. If you have a horse, you need a lot of scope because it is massive there.
Jacobsen: What riders did you look up to growing up?
Martens: Marcus Ehning, he’s a fabulous rider. He has a lot of feeling. Christian Ahlmann, there are so many good riders. They all have a different style. I like the riders who all have a bit of feeling.
Jacobsen: What do you mean by that? For someone who has less experience in the industry, it is a strange phrasing.
Martens: Someone who can ride the horse and be one with them. Someone who is not fighting all the way through, who makes it look easy, loves to ride, and you can see the horse loves to ride, like Eric Lamaze and Hickstead. That was such a pleasure to look at.
Jacobsen: Why was the Netherlands, other than the horses, so on top for so long?
Martens: Here, we have all the facilities, all of the bigger shows quite close. I think Holland is a country with a lot of knowledge from a horse. I think for a very long time that they bred the good horses. Now, you can see the results. Belgium is getting very, very close if they are not already stronger than Holland at the moment. I think Germany is very close. I think there are so many horses here and so many shows. Here, the bigger riders can go to 2*, 3*, 4* shows every weekend.
Jacobsen: What does your typical work week look like?
Martens: We start with doing the boxes [Ed. “stalls” to North Americans], and the hay. Then we put the horses in the walker. We do everything ourselves. So, that gives us a better overview over the horses. We know when something is going on with one of the horses. So, we put them in the walker, put them in the field, then we ride. That’s, basically, what we do for the whole week or one show until Wednesday. My father works in the stables. When we are in the international shows, he takes care of the horses at home. From Wednesday on, we leave to the bigger shows. Otherwise, we do the shows with the younger horses.
Jacobsen: I’m told that within Canadian show jumping that pretty much everyone knows everyone or knows of everyone because it is such a small sport community. Is this more or less true?
Martens: Yes. Because we travel so much to different shows. We see each other so often.
Jacobsen: That’s also something I noticed. I was talking to a friend of mine who is a show jumper and then someone else who I sent a question set to; they were both in Thermal, in fact. [Laughing] I am getting this indication over and over again that this is true.
Martens: Social media, also, helps.
Jacobsen: Yes, most of you are on Facebook or Instagram. The travel and those couple of access points of social media that you’re all, more or less, on. Do you think it is the visual aspect of it, e.g., the mechanics of watching a horse and rider go over a jump?
Martens: Yes.
Jacobsen: One last question for today, how do you think the sport is going to be evolving over the next several years into the future?
Martens: I think it is only going to get more difficult for the normal people because it looks – as with the Longines Global Champions Tour – like you cannot rely on one horse. You cannot do all the shows because you cannot rely on the one horse. And to do the competitions, you need to pay a lot of money to get in. I am bit scared that it will go in the direction of becoming a sport for the wealthy people, even more than it is already.
Jacobsen: Kimberley, thank you very much for your time today.
Martens: You’re welcome.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 29: Kimberley Martens on Show Jumping, the Netherlands, Show Jumping Culture. December 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/martens
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, December 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 29: Kimberley Martens on Show Jumping, the Netherlands, Show Jumping Culture. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/martens.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 29: Kimberley Martens on Show Jumping, the Netherlands, Show Jumping Culture. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 29: Kimberley Martens on Show Jumping, the Netherlands, Show Jumping Culture.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/martens.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 29: Kimberley Martens on Show Jumping, the Netherlands, Show Jumping Culture.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (December 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/martens.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 29: Kimberley Martens on Show Jumping, the Netherlands, Show Jumping Culture’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/martens>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 29: Kimberley Martens on Show Jumping, the Netherlands, Show Jumping Culture’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/martens>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 29: Kimberley Martens on Show Jumping, the Netherlands, Show Jumping Culture.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/martens.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 29: Kimberley Martens on Show Jumping, the Netherlands, Show Jumping Culture [Internet]. 2022 Dec; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/martens
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/12/22
*Interview conducted December 16, 2022.*
Abstract
Hayley Mercer is a U25 show jumper from Langley, British Columbia, Canada. She has trained with Samantha Aird and Natasha Brash, among a number of other trainers. Her more formal equestrian training and competing on the U25 circuit began at Thunderbird Show Stables under the tutelage of Laura Balisky and Brent Balisky, and LJ Tidball, on the mount Crown Royal. Currently, she is travelling the North American circuit in California and Florida. Mercer discusses: an inkling of horses as an interest; Samantha Aird; make it fun; humbled once or twice; a growth mindset; humility and teachability; industry; Laura and Brent Balisky, and LJ Tidball; 3-part team; Tiffany Foster; the United States; that extra leap; equitation; a bi-athlete sport; horses having independent thought; injuries; worst fear; long-term goals in this sport; great riders; problems in the sport; social media; the Irish and the Swiss; non-essential routines, superstitions, lucky charms; and pearl earrings.
Keywords: Andrea Strain, Ashlee Bond, Brent Balisky, CET Nationals, Eric Lamaze, Erynn Ballard, Hayley Mercer, Hyde Moffatt, Kelly Kennedy, Laura Balisky, LJ Tidball, Major League, Malcolm Gladwell, Natasha Brash, Nations Cup, Samantha Aird, Team Canada, The Greenhorn Chronicles, Thunderbird, Tiffany Foster.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: Hayley Mercer on Personal Story and Aspirations in Show Jumping
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, so, this is round 2 with Hayley Mercer. As with the Mac Cone and the Hyde Moffatt [Ed. Upcoming] interviews, an apology because of my mistake. I used the older system rather than the newer system for interviews. We will go over her narrative, work, and views, in show jumping, in the career of her choice. I am going to start as before. What were the moments when you were first getting an inkling of horses as an interest and a path for you to continue forward, in your life?
Hayley Mercer: Horses, as an interest for me, were since I was little. My grandmother moved to Vancouver Island when I was little. We used to go there and visit her. She would give us pony lessons as an incentive to keep visiting her. I was 5 or 6 when that started. When I decided I wanted to pursue it as a career option, I was in grade 9. I was 14 or 15 years old. I was training with Samantha Aird. That was when I started opening my eyes to the grand prix as an option. Mostly, at Thunderbird, I grew up there. I was watching the big players growing up: Ashlee Bond and Tiffany Foster. Eric Lamaze was big at the time. He still is big, but he’s not necessarily jumping internationally, anymore. Team Canada, I was watching those riders growing up. I remember being 14, 15, 16, and 17, and thinking, “I want to do this.” As I grew up, I fashioned how I wanted to go about it.
Jacobsen: How did you, originally, get connected with Samantha?
Mercer: Samantha, we met briefly. I was with Kelly Kennedy, as a little kid. Little pony club lessons, we ended up moving from her. We were going to go to Samantha Aird because she had a connection to Kelly. Kelly recommended Samantha to us. Samantha wasn’t ready, at the time, for any new clients. So, we went to Andrea Strain. We were there for about a year or two. That was all great. After that, we went back to Sam, who was ready at the time. She really made the sport fun for me. I learned a lot at Andrea’s. Although, Sam made the sport fun [Laughing], as a 15, 16, and 17 year old. It was all I wanted to do now. She gave me passion for the sport. It was all I wanted to do after school, which was go and spend time with her and the horses.
Jacobsen: What did she incorporate to make it fun?
Mercer: She took the stress out of competing. It helped me a little bit to this day. Where, you can put a lot of pressure on yourself. In this sport, when you get to 3*, 4*, and Nations Cup levels, you can get a lot of pressure put on yourself. She was really good. I wasn’t at that level with her. However, she was good at reminding you: Have fun when you go out to the ring. You’re doing this for the love of the horse, and to remember this when you go into the ring.
Jacobsen: Are there moments when you have forgotten that?
Mercer: Definitely [Laughing].
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Mercer: You get caught up in the sport, like any sport. What is happening next? What horse show is happening next? What thing do I need points for next? What do I need to qualify for next? It is such a difficult world to navigate that way. It takes one or two humbling experiences to remember, “I am doing this because I love these horses.”
Jacobsen: How were you humbled once or twice?
Mercer: Everyone gets humbled. Every day in the sport is like that. It can be from winning a class on the Saturday to falling off on the GPO on the Sunday. It can be… I came back from Toronto. I did the CET Nationals there. I qualified for them. I came back in the Spring back to B.C. when the season started again. The first five or six classes of the CET; I didn’t place [Laughing].
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Mercer: And I just qualified for nationals. I came back from Toronto at the Royal Winter Fair. I didn’t qualify in the first 7 classes. It was humbling for sure. That was a small one.
Image Credit: Kim Gaudry.
Jacobsen: I am reminded of the first session, the lost session. You had mentioned – or we had discussed – that the rate of failure is much higher, regardless of the level of the sport, than the successes. How do you psychologically become a bit calloused to that or adapt to that to keep moving forward?
Mercer: I stopped viewing it as failure and more as development. I think that if you’re always viewing your career, your sport, your job, your parenting skills, your life, as a success or failure, then it’s very black-and-white, for lack of a better analogy [Laughing]. I don’t think you’re necessarily failing. You’re learning.
Jacobsen: Would you frame your own mindset as a growth mindset?
Mercer: I try to keep an open mind to everything and in anything that I learn in life. I think the human mind should always be learning, and is capable of so many things, every day. You should be open to growth and stay humble and stay teachable.
Jacobsen: Do you think humility and teachability go hand-in-hand?
Mercer: Yes, I would say they do.
Jacobsen: Who did you move onto from Samantha?
Mercer: From Samantha, I went to Natasha Brash.
Jacobsen: What did you learn from her?
Mercer: Natasha changed my thoughts on the sport in the sense that I could have a career and make money in the sport. In this sense, she owned a sales barn. She made money through sales of horses. I learned a lot about that with her, how to prepare horses for that and flipping sales of horses. If I had a horse that wasn’t amazing, but was cheaper, you ride it for a few months, bring it up, and sell it for a bit more. You keep going. She opened my eyes to that.
Jacobsen: Are horses in show jumping a highly profitable industry or a modestly profitable industry in general?
Mercer: There are so many aspects of the sport and so many disciplines. It depends on how you work it. I think horse sales, at a certain level of the sport, might make you more. Maybe, at a lower level, you might make less. In comparison, at the higher level, if your business is based on prize winnings, then that might better for you.
Jacobsen: Who did you move onto from Natasha?
Mercer: After Natasha, I went to Laura Balisky, Brent Balisky, and LJ Tidball.
Jacobsen: Why them?
Mercer: They were the next step for me in terms of wanting to further my goals of pursuing equitation at the time, CET, and the medals, at the time, which was a massive goal of mine. Also, I viewed them as a team who I could stay with a long time. They could keep teaching me and propelling me in my goals. Now, I’m in my 20s. I learn from them every day. I will always keep learning from them. They are the ones I have stuck with the longest.
Jacobsen: What does each person in that 3-part team bring to the table?
Mercer: It’s so interesting to have three different minds work together in a training business. Because you get so many different perspectives. Laura was an Olympian. So, there’s that. Brent’s mind is insane, how he breaks things down and explains them to you. It is so knowledgeable. I am never walking out of a lesson with Brent and never not learning something new. LJ is so relatable because she is jumping what I am jumping. She is in the same classes as me. It is nice to have someone in the class who is riding the same course as you, if that makes sense.
Jacobsen: Who inspired you the most, as you were a teenager?
Mercer: Probably, Tiffany Foster.
Jacobsen: Why?
Mercer: I viewed her as someone who always had such a kind personality and such drive in the sport. You can read multiple articles on her. She didn’t come from a super wealthy family. I look up to her in what she has created for herself, in the sport, and her professional standards. I have always looked up to her. She rides amazing. She is so fast. She is part of Team Canada. She is a really big role model of mine.
Jacobsen: What does she represent for the country?
Mercer: That’s a hard one. Because I think all the people who ride for Team Canada represent good pieces of our nation, not just one who rides for Team Canada. I don’t know. I don’t really know how to answer that.
Jacobsen: If we can now go and take a step back, Canada produces some of the best women riders in show jumping in the world, consistently. Why?
Mercer: I guess, we have grit [Laughing].
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Mercer: Maybe, it is in the cold air.
Jacobsen: Hyde Moffatt had a similar response. He said something to the effect of “because we’re tough”. We’re resilient. So, it could be the cold air from the Canadian Shield. Now, you decided to take a road trip south along the southern parts of the United States in California and Florida for half of a year. Why decide to make this move?
Mercer: This was my Winter of experiencing everything I could in the span of a few months, not in my own country, because I am reaching the point in my life where I want to figure out where I want to be in this career and in this sport. I am lucky to have a horse reaching a 3* and 4* level. We’re competitive in the U25. That is a handy class to travel around in. So, this was wanting to hold myself to the level of sport at WEF and in California, to see if I like it and if I want to do it.
Jacobsen: When you’re getting a horse reaching a height of 1.50m, how does that feel getting that extra leap compared a lot of other people who get to about 1.30m, 1.35m? Then they cut their career short and stay at that level and don’t proceed further.
Mercer: The first time I jumped a 1.50m grand prix. I was in awe that I had a horse that could do that. I was so in awe. I’m shocked. Like, why? Why do they jump for us? They are so willing. The fact that I have one; I am immensely grateful. The feeling was… I don’t even have a word for it. I feel like I could accomplish anything.
Jacobsen: Does awestruck exhilaration come to mind?
Mercer: Yes.
Jacobsen: Do you think this horse could reach 1.55m, 1.60m?
Mercer: I think he could get to 1.55m. If he wanted to jump 1.60m, then he will. I will leave it up to him if he wants to do that because I can’t ask anything more of him. He has done so much for me. I would love to see that of him. I think he would try his heart out. If he wants to, great; if not, he doesn’t have to do it.
Image Credit: Quinn Saunders.
Jacobsen: Why did you focus earlier in your career on equitation?
Mercer: Equitation was something all of my trainers valued. As you start out, before you start moving up, it teaches you really good basics and discipline, in my opinion. It is a major factor when you jump big jumps. The tracks of the equitation courses are as hard as all the grand prix courses. Although, the grand prix courses are bigger. In terms of technicality, they are the same. In terms of pressure of nerves, I have never felt the same nerves – to this day – as I have in the Royal Winter Fair.
Jacobsen: One of the myths of this sport, as you have alluded in some of the responses, is the idea of this as a solo sport. In some real sense, it is a bi-athlete sport. There is a horse and a rider. Many riders will reference the horse as another athlete, which is real. Do you have that same sensibility about show jumping, where there are two athletes working together to make these jumps?
Mercer: Yes, I do. I agree with that. Because this is a sport where you depend on another animal to largely factor into your success or your development; it makes it hard to create a path for yourself. So, I believe that that is a very big factor to someone’s career choice, or how they want to play in the sport.
Jacobsen: About 12 months ago, when I first interviewed Erynn Ballard, she noted horses having independent thought as a problem, as a factor. In this sense, if you are in another high-octane sport, such as NASCAR or F1, you are dealing with a very powerful construct. It doesn’t think for itself. It does what you want it to do, for the most part. Unless one of the parts is failing or falling apart, or there is a malfunction. With horses, everything could be perfectly fine. They may just not want to follow your directions at that time. How do you deal with that level of uncertainty, at the level of psychology, of the sport?
Mercer: I think, for myself, you approach every day the same and don’t make things a problem. You deal with things when they happen. For the most part, give them the benefit of the doubt, these are good horses. I agree that that makes it difficult. In our sport, that is the most difficult part. Our partner is a living, breathing animal. A lot of the time, they pull through for us. If not, try another day, again, it’s not a failure; it’s development.
Jacobsen: Another myth, as I learned in 14 months in this industry without background – before, the public will see horse sport as something soft, similar to the mythology around cheerleading. When in fact, in both cheerleading and show jumping, the injury rates are very high, and the injuries can be extraordinarily lifechanging in their danger. Have you had any injuries, major or minor, so far?
Mercer: No, I’ve been lucky enough to have minor, minor injuries. I think the worst thing I did was dislocate my shoulder once and a few concussions, knock on wood. I have never injured anything in a major way. I have been quite lucky.
Jacobsen: There have been deaths for some riders in the ring.
Mercer: Yes, it is scary.
Jacobsen: What is your worst fear in show jumping?
Mercer: That is a very deep question. In terms of safety, or in terms of… what?
Jacobsen: Both safety and interest in the sport. It could be a psychological thing. Some people could fear that they lose their motivation. Erynn Ballard noted this, when she had her injury. She had this one thought. Where, basically, she felt as though she could retire. She could just drop it, make a good living, and get on with it. That dropped pretty quick. But it can happen. Those thoughts can pass through the thoughts of someone, even performing at a high level of the sport. Those could be fears as well. The intrinsic motivation is gone.
Mercer: That’s very accurate. My two biggest thoughts that came to mind when you asked that. Psychologically, if I lose motivation and don’t want to do this anymore, what do I do with my life? I didn’t go to university. In high school, I didn’t really try in terms of academics. If I lose interest in this, where do I go, that’s a normal thing to have; I’m sure lots of people feel this when thinking of their career. Another thing would be injuring a horse in the ring. Those videos of injuring a horse in the ring. That would be really terrible.
Jacobsen: What are your long-term goals in this sport? What are your hopes for it?
Mercer: Long-term, I want to have my own business in teaching and riding. Maybe, mid- to long-term, I want to be on the team, whether a Nations Cup team or a Major League team. Those are two big goals for me.
Jacobsen: What tends to set apart nationally great riders from internationally great riders? Those who rise above the circumstance of their country and perform as well as any other world-class rider.
Mercer: I think it depends on the rider. The determination and the grit to get there. It is a full-on sport. You talk about 10,000 hours devoted to any sport. I think about the amount of hours in the saddle. I have spent way more than 10,000. So, I think when you’re talking about who goes that extra step to the international level. It is who puts the time and the effort in.
Jacobsen: What do you see as problems in the sport, issues?
Mercer: I think funding can be an issue, especially for young ones coming up. Exposure: Wanting to get onto people in the sport’s radar, for lack of a better word, to put yourself on the scene. It is something I have found to be difficult. Something that I have had to work at, for sure.
Jacobsen: I have noticed something in reaching to a lot of the Canadian prominent show jumpers. It is social media. They are on Facebook. They are on Instagram. Is there a reason for these media as a means by which they show off performances or communicate with one another over others?
Mercer: Instagram, you can share photos and videos. It is an easy way to attract a following, which is through posting memories of a show or a barn party. Same with Facebook. Facebook is massive. You can reach so many people. Everybody has Facebook, whether 80 or 18. I think it’s different demographics for both. I think they both have the most outreach, in my opinion.
Jacobsen: Which country do you think is doing well overall?
Mercer: Ireland is on a hot streak. Switzerland, all the European ones are always on there. Switzerland is doing really well. U.S.A. is always at the top.
Jacobsen: Why the Irish and the Swiss now?
Mercer: Ireland seems to have really good riders and horses right now. All the good riders have found good horses with them. They ride really well. I think it is showing in their placings and their team competition.
Jacobsen: Do show jumpers have non-essential routines, superstitions, lucky charms that they bring to each event, to psychologically prep them?
Mercer: I’m sure they do. Lots of people do. I have a specific pair of pearl earrings that I have to wear. I know lots of people who do a certain prep the night before or the morning after. It all depends on who you are.
Jacobsen: What kind of prep?
Mercer: I used to know this one girl who had to have a bath every night. She would have an Epsom salt bath every night. She would get candles and everything.
Jacobsen: Why those pearl earrings?
Mercer: [Laughing] They were gifted to me on my 16th birthday. They were the same ones I wore to the Royal. The same ones I wore competing all over, same horse or different horses. I have a lot of good memories – good and bad. It is important to remember.
Jacobsen: Hayley, thank you very much.
Mercer: Yes, of course, thank you for reaching out and thinking of me.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: Hayley Mercer on Personal Story and Aspirations in Show Jumping. December 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mercer
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, December 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: Hayley Mercer on Personal Story and Aspirations in Show Jumping. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mercer.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: Hayley Mercer on Personal Story and Aspirations in Show Jumping. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: Hayley Mercer on Personal Story and Aspirations in Show Jumping.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mercer.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: Hayley Mercer on Personal Story and Aspirations in Show Jumping.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (December 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mercer.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: Hayley Mercer on Personal Story and Aspirations in Show Jumping’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mercer>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: Hayley Mercer on Personal Story and Aspirations in Show Jumping’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mercer>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: Hayley Mercer on Personal Story and Aspirations in Show Jumping.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mercer.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: The Greenhorn Chronicles 28: Hayley Mercer on Personal Story and Aspirations in Show Jumping [Internet]. 2022 Dec; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mercer
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/12/22
*Interview conducted December 5, 2022.*
Abstract
Mac Cone, according to Starting Gate Communications, can be described as follows: “Mac Cone is one of Canada’s most experienced riders having been a steady performer at the international level for over 30 years. In 1974, he married Canadian Brenley Carpenter and the couple has two daughters. Originally from Tennessee, Mac moved to Canada in 1979 and is one of only two riders to have competed on both the United States and Canadian Equestrian Teams (the other being 1984 World Cup Champion Mario Deslauriers). With the stallion Elute, Mac enjoyed victory in the $100,000 Autumn Classic in New York in 1994. Although the pair was selected for the 1995 Pan American Games in Argentina, they were unable to compete due to a last minute injury. Elute made a strong comeback, however, winning the 1996 Olympic Selection Trials at Spruce Meadows. In his Olympic debut in Atlanta, Mac was the highest-placed Canadian rider, a feat he would repeat at the 2002 World Equestrian Games in Jerez, Spain, riding Cocu. At the 2007 Pan American Games in Rio de Janeiro, Mac and Melinda were members of the Silver Medal Team. In his second Olympic appearance in 2008, Mac and the impressive Ole were members of Canada’s historic Silver Medal Team. In addition to his own riding, Mac is active as an instructor and clinician. His personal style, which is very low key and easy going, makes him very popular with his students, who have included 1986 World Champion Gail Greenough and 2003 Pan American Games competitor, Mark Samuel. Mac operates Southern Ways Stable in King, Ontario.” Cone discusses: factors; the “elephant in the room”; the Canadian Olympic team and the American Olympic team; and guiding lights.
Keywords: America, Canada, equestrianism, Frank Chapot, George Morris, horsemanship, Ian Millar, Jim Elder, Kathy Kusner, Katie Monahan, Leslie Burr-Howard, Mac Cone, Melanie Smith, Michael Matz, Michelle Vaillencourt, Olympics, Rodney Jenkins, Sue McNamara, Tennessee, The Greenhorn Chronicles, Tom Gayford, William Steinkraus, Bertalan de Nemethy.
The Greenhorn Chronicles 27: Mac Cone on North American Show Jumping History (2)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, now, back to some of the personal history, you are setting up these 4-foot jumps out of boards in your backyard, basically. You get picked up and trained by George Morris. As you were saying, there’s been either a homogenization or a universalization of the training methodology for all 80+ countries who are a part of show jumping. How does that affect the level of competitiveness of the sport when the training methodology is, more or less, the same, regardless of the country? So, there’s internationalization there. The quality of the horse might vary, but the proper age upon which to get a horse to start riding at different levels, and when young people are getting into the sport know when they can compete in certain things, and not – when they’re ready, in other words. How do these factors affect the sport as a whole?
Mac Cone: The biggest thing that has changed. The first person to bring over a fancy, fancy warmblood from Europe that was so different than any of the horses than any of the rest of us had at that point was Melanie Smith who rode Calypso, because we were still on horses off the track. She was on the gold medal team in the Los Angeles Olympics with Calypso. She had this winning record and had unbelievable success. As George Morris was her coach, he said, “It didn’t take long for everyone to say, “I want a Calypso. Something like that.” That was the beginning of trying to import the warmbloods. There weren’t any warmbloods in North America or Canada; they were all in Europe. So, that’s how the relationships began between all the riders here and their dealers, and their contacts – and it’s how they went about it.
Everyone has a different story. But everyone worked out how they could get some of their hands on some of these warmbloods. Then a horse came over named The Natural. I think Katie Monahan was responsible for that one coming over. I think Rodney Jenkins jumped in there somehow and got a hold of The Natural. It was the first horse sold for $1,000,000, in the 80s or late 80s. I’m not sure. Those are the progressions of how things go. Then it went to that being the one person who would pay $1,000,000 for a jumping horse. Then it went to just stand in line.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Cone: It’s a long line of people that’ll pay $1,000,000. Now, it’s gotten to the point that the $1,000,000 will barely buy you an 8-year-old or a 7-year-old because there are so many people around the world who want top horses who can do the top sport. There are only so many out there. It is then the old supply-and-demand. The supply is low, the demand is high, and the prices go up. Do they go up? They are crazy up!
Jacobsen: This is the “elephant in the room” mentioned in one of the earlier sessions, by you. [Ed. Others in the industry mention this in conversation, in the field, outside of formal interviews.] Expenses of the horses have really gotten astronomical for rational economic reasons. But it sets a barrier for entry at that level.
Cone: That’s all very correct. The elephant in the room: Horse sport forever has been associated with the sport of kings. I think they were talking – when that phrase was hanging starting – about racehorses. It followed us to the jumping horses. Once again, everyone has a different path. Where you start from is not your fault, your bonus, your negativity, it doesn’t really matter. Where you start from is where you start, where you go with where you start is what’s important, so, we’re all trying to get to Rome, which is the high-level of the sport. Meaning: Making an Olympic team, making a World Championship team, we’re all trying to get to Rome. Everyone’s path to Rome might be different. Some might have a more direct, straighter, path. Others might have to wind around mountains to get there. Whatever path you take, that doesn’t really matter. That’s what you were given when you were born. You shouldn’t dwell on that. That’s nothing to dwell on. What could be talked about, and it probably isn’t going to change, because it seems to be getting worse, with the strength of our industry, meaning, everything from the very beginner levels to the medium levels to the amateur levels to the hunters, the equitation, the jumpers, and so on; the industry is so strong. With the industry being stronger and broader, there are many people making a very good living in this industry. But industry and sport are two different things – two totally different things.
So, if we were totally doing nothing but addressing a path to the top, and it was all that were concerned with, the things people were doing and how they were operating would be totally different than what we see now.
Jacobsen: As you came from Tennessee, this was something noted to me, after the interview, by a good woman farrier friend. She noted: In fact, you were the only person, for a long time, to compete on the Canadian Olympic team and the American Olympic team. What is the story there?
Cone: Actually, I got drafted twice. When I went to New Jersey to train with Mr. Morris, I took a quarter horse with me. There was another quarter horse in Tennessee. Each one cost $5,000. But they could jump. They were just quarter horses, but they could really jump. I brought these quarter horses and did very well with them, very quickly. Thanks to George’s coaching. One thing I will brag about myself on: I was always a really good student. Number one, I wanted to learn. I knew how to keep my mouth shut and my ears open. I was good at osmosis, soaking it up from the outside. I love being a student, especially when I was learning from very good people. So, he got me onto the team. He recommended me to Bertalan de Nemethy. He was one of the greatest coaches, too. He was the chef and coach of the American team. I was allowed to go there with my horses and to live and work with George and de Nemethy. That was an unbelievable experience. I started riding on donated horses and competed on the Fall circuit the following year: Harrisburg, Washington, and Toronto. That was fantastic.
I had great teammates. I had Michael Matz, who is a legend, and Rodney Jenkins, a legend, and Frank Chapot. Those are my teammates. We won all the Nations’ Cups – surprise, surprise. That was an unbelievable experience for a 20-/21-year-old boy. So, anyway, that all came to end. I had to leave Gladstone and enter into business for myself. My journey took my wife, Brenley, and myself up to Toronto. I was a landed immigrant there. I got a job offer from Sue Grange, who was Sue McNamara up to that point. She wanted me to coach her. So, I came up to coach. I said, “I wanted to run a business.” She built me a 15-stall barn. She said, “Run your business.”
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Cone: This went on for like 4 years. During that time, Tom Gayford approached me. He was now the chef. He wasn’t riding anymore, but Elder was still riding. He said, “We want you to ride for the Canadian team.” I said, “Well, I’m American.”
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Cone: No, I didn’t say that. I said, “I’ll look into it.” So, I looked into the rules. It said you could only ride for the country for which you hold a passport. Gayford said, “What are you going to do?” I said, “I love Canada. I love the U.S., but I am going to live in Canada. I’ll look into changing my citizenship.” I had a half-Clydesdale, half-thoroughbred Canadian horse owned by the Isbister family. Don’t you know, we ended up jumping the big American invitational Grand Prix down in Florida in March. He said, “At the World Championships in Dublin, we want you on the team.” So, it was Jim Elder, Ian Millar, Mark Laskin, and me. That was my first performance with the Canadian team, which was that year in Dublin. So, drafted twice [Laughing].
Jacobsen: He didn’t have a choice, your honour. Who would you consider pivotal people within American show jumping and Canadian show jumping history? Those who stand apart for setting a consistent tone over decades for the industry, guiding lights.
Cone: Do you want to talk about industry or about sport?
Jacobsen: Sport.
Cone: Well, the first dominating rider of the U.S., and the most successful, was a guy named William Steinkraus. He was a cornerstone of the United States equestrian team for decades. He rode great. He won the gold medal at Mexico, individual gold medal. Because he rode so good, he got the pick of the donated horses. He was always really well-mounted. He was the guy that I, at 12 or 14 years of age, would read the stories of and would want to emulate. He was the guy. About the same time, there was a guy named Frank Chapot who was on many silver-medal teams with him. The other member of the team, at that time, was George Morris, then a girl named Kathy Kusner. She was a great talent and rider. Those were the four at that time. Neal Shapiro won bronze on Sloopy. Other ones came in, that’s when things started. It was the beginning of the end of the donation of the horses, like I talked about before.
Then the industry and the sport had to clash, if you want to call it something. Hopefully, they’ll learn to work together, which they’re still trying to do – not always great, but, sometimes, they’re doing okay. Then there was this guy named Rodney Jenkins. He had more talent in his pinky finger than all those riders that I’ve just mentioned put together. He was just amazing, natural. Talking about a guy who came from the rough, tough, and tumble, his father was a fox hunter. He kept his fox hunting horses. He, basically, had a string of horses that people would use to fox hunt and ride. Rodney was his son. He started there and started showing horses a little bit. Rodney’s talent came to the forefront. He would ride 30 or 40 horses at the shows, because everyone wanted Rodney riding the horses. They didn’t want the rest of us. They wanted Rodney. I remember a meeting that we had. A bunch of us were trying to ride in the grands prix in the U.S. The owners all wanted Rodney riding their horses. We were saying, “That’s not fair. We have to spread these horses around. We have to spread these horses around, or we won’t have a class. We can’t have a class in a competition with just Rodney riding.”
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Cone: It was to that degree. He was that good. As the industry made things spread out a bit, that’s one thing it did. It gave Leslie Burr-Howard a place to go, and to teach her clients, which was the Ox Ridge Hunt Club. She started showing up. Katie Monahan started her business in Virginia. It all started spreading out a bit. Then Michael Matz, of course, probably, if there was anyone who had the natural talent who is a different sort of talent than Rodney was, he was gifted with quite a natural talent. He dominated show jumping in the U.S. for a long time, and well-deserved. Canada, on the other hand, as things went on from the ’68 Olympics, I would say the biggest force that came in would have been Ian Millar. He would have started coming into play. He didn’t intend this in a mean way. But he meant it. There’s no bullshit there.
He said, “I came in. I saw who was on top. There was Elder. I said, ‘I’m going to rider better than Elder and faster than Elder. And I’m going to be that all then time.’ And I did that.” Then he goes, “I looked at Rodney. I want to learn to ride just as good as him, and faster than him. And he did!” That’s Ian. Talking about what it takes to be on a medal winning team at the top level, it is that attitude; that attitude, that grit that you need there. You need four people with that, to accomplish it. Then Mark Laskin came along, a great natural talent and beautiful rider. We were all sitting at the Hall of Fame dinner in 1980, I think, alternate Olympic team; we all boycotted it because of Russia invading Afghanistan. Can you imagine that? Getting upset over a country invading Afghanistan, isn’t that weird?
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Cone: Anyway, we had an alternate Olympics in Rotterdam. That consisted of Mark, Ian, Michelle Vaillencourt – a new grit, and Jim Elder. We were watching the films from that. Laskin came on the big video screen at the awards screen. Watching him ride, he looked as modern and as smooth, and as beautiful, and as up to date, as any rider now. He was like that back in 1980. So, it is quite a history of the top, top jockeys that we have produced in Canada. I must say the majority of those jockeys came from the rough and tumble way. They found their way by reading, watching, and desiring, and wanting, and realizing that a more classical way was the way to go if that helps you at all in answering that question.
Jacobsen: It does.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 27: Mac Cone on North American Show Jumping History (2). December 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-2
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, December 22). The Greenhorn Chronicles 27: Mac Cone on North American Show Jumping History (2). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-2.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Greenhorn Chronicles 27: Mac Cone on North American Show Jumping History (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 27: Mac Cone on North American Show Jumping History (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-2.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Greenhorn Chronicles 27: Mac Cone on North American Show Jumping History (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (December 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-2.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 27: Mac Cone on North American Show Jumping History (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-2>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘The Greenhorn Chronicles 27: Mac Cone on North American Show Jumping History (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-2>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Greenhorn Chronicles 27: Mac Cone on North American Show Jumping History (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-2.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Greenhorn Chronicles 27: Mac Cone on North American Show Jumping History (2) [Internet]. 2022 Dec; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/cone-2
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/12/08
Abstract
Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies, including World Genius Directory, NOUS High IQ Society, 6N High IQ Society just to name a few. Tor Arne was also in 2019, nominated for the World Genius Directory 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe. He is also the designer of the high range test site; toriqtests.com. He discusses: machine learning apparatuses; a natural reaction; the fears; the idea of genius; and A.I.
Keywords: AGI, AI, humanity, intelligence, machine learning, learning systems, life, the future, Technological Singularity, Tor Arne Jørgensen.
Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Given the machine learning apparatuses before us, and an increase in comprehension of different biological systems within human beings, how might biological systems inform machine learning systems?
Tor Arne Jorgensen: When it comes to learning through type-designed programming, in terms of artificial intelligence, it means putting in special directives that they the machines must follow as pre-programmed. We humans are constantly learning, in the sense that we create new layers with our mapping models, that in turn can be further built upon. We humans acquire steadily and constantly new knowledge by which we then put into practice by testing this new knowledge which we have then mapped, this is the very basis for intelligence. Today’s machines and their artificial intelligence does not acquire new knowledge, as new knowledge must be programmed in by us humans as to achieve improved functionality of these machines. This does not happen automatically, as with us humans.
When it comes to AGI, new knowledge must also be programmed in from the start, this implementation of this new knowledge must then be formed on the same basis as for our own intelligence, through this mapping which takes place in the neocortex, where layers upon layers of new and improved knowledge are built, which in turn can be implemented through new and improved cognitive functions.
AGI can only become self-regulating in the sense of being considered as equally cognitively evolving when our understanding of how our own brain works is completed in full. That means, where all the pieces can be put together into a clear and understandable format, then and only then can our biological imprint be completed in transferred understanding of machine intelligence on par with our own understanding as to the terminology surrounding intelligence. Summarized as follows; today most of the biological input is given through pure programming, man feeds the machine with updated commands, this done in order to achieve the desired improved function of the machines.
This will not change drastically until our own understanding of how our own brain works, with reference to the neocortex and its intelligence parameters i.e., a complete understanding of all the neocortex components. First then, can this be transferable in any or all sense over to the machines. And then the machines can finally implement some kind of formatives through, self-regulatory actions by its pre-understood state of evolving mantras.
Jacobsen: To purport an obsolescence to human beings posits an intrinsic function or purpose, a teleology, to human beings in the universe, why is this a natural reaction to an emergence of digital algorithms in the era of computers and an easy analogy with human cognitive processing? Those with a teleological philosophy and a non-teleological philosophy make the same claims in this sense. In that, “Human beings will become obsolete or outmoded.” We know children tend towards animistic and teleological explanations of the world. Does this tendency seem more innate? Although, as people mature, they tend to show an increased jettisoning of these assumptions, not in all or most cases, but an increasing statistical trend, certainly. One can observe these tendencies in proposals of a Technological Singularity or a technology particularity; a point at which machines match human intelligence.
Jorgensen: This is probably where I must question myself to a certain extent, whether these claims could have the same fundamental foundation today as the time before, with reference to the introductive angle of question formulations. The fact that we humans are biological bases, and thus are forever reinvest and initiatives for improved cognitive enrichment. Made real, with our acute ability to acquire new knowledge and to apply this new knowledge onto the old knowledge as to create an even greater spectrum of knowledge.
We do not need to be programmed by an external entity for this acquisition, it is created by itself all the time, we are biological beings who are constantly developing our basis for new cognitive updating of our surroundings through these frames of reference that are talked about in Jeff Hawkins price acclaimed book, A Thousand Brains, where this is pointed out in reference to the brain’s neocortex and its implementation intelligence. The fact that the acquisition of new knowledge is used and creates the basis for new knowledge, the very foundations for intelligence in every sense.
The fact that we humans will be outdated according to AGI, will probably not happen, then, yes, it must be said that at some point AGI will be able to match us intellectually, and certainly outperform us in several aspects. However, it should also be mentioned that this will not happen until AGI is an exemplary copy of our own complete understanding of our brain, where all parts of the brains fragmented knowledge can be put together into a total overall understanding of how the brain works.
When we will come to this conclusion and we will in due time of that I am confident, then who can say what kind of knowledge we will then behold, as new fields with new hitherto not understood quantifiable qualities, that again can further be expand upon as to our own intelligence quantum, far beyond what we today are able to understand. Furthermore, that AGI can only be equated with the human intelligence when this total understanding of how the brain works is completed, it will then finally be in a state of transferable forma over to the AGI unit, and thus enables it to form its own definable evolving statutes of new self-acquired acquisitions of new cognitive knowledge onto which it can again be furthered built upon.
As long as the machines build all their base knowledge onto what we humans have been evolved upon, we will not be seen as an endangered race, but rather as a race to be recon with and of great importance as to study more, and maybe to form an alliance with based on mutual acceptance, in the quest for a greater understanding of how the universe works.
Jacobsen: If the fears are shown true, as in a Terminator future or something akin to Blade Runner, then, in some sense, human beings become either extinct or non-dominant as the prime information processing entities on the surface of the Earth. If the fears are shown false, then co-existence seems more likely with evolved intelligences – human beings and other mammals – and constructed intelligences – machines or electronically ‘floating’ intelligences in the ‘cloud’ – functioning independently and interdependently as necessary. Perhaps, some synthesis of these two visions may be the real future. What seem like the more probable outcomes for the advance of technology, at present, and humanity?
Jorgensen: Portraying one scenario for the other will present many challenges, as neither-nor as to a desired outcome. What is meant by this, if one attempts to look at the first scenario, whereas we humans are exterminated in favor for the machines, in the case of the movie Terminator, whereby the machines and their desire to rid the world of humans, and to add, animals, yes, by all biological material. Would not the next move then be to end the very biological diversity that defines all life, by definition of our own planet. Or it could just be that humans pose a threat which is then isolated to the advantage of the machines, but as the Terminator films portray, all land life is extinct, perhaps just a calculated miss, or well-planned calculation to enlarge the worldview of humans’ and their role on earth, would by that, not again mean that all life on earth stands and falls on the very existence of humanity. “Without us, there is nothing.”
What then will the role of the machines consist of then, when this extinction is completed, will the machines then create a better and more shaped world with a greater diversity? What purpose would this have for the machines, they are the ruling ones, then the way forward will not be in the intention that the machines are implemented with the intention and meaning of something more in the long run.
Alas, the result would be to terraform our planet, purposely to adapt their (machines’) need to then ensure their own existence, may not just be limited to our own planet, but also beyond, a race of planet eaters. It can also be asked whether the machines will use the material that we humans have used as a basis for our own evolutionary development … What is certain, is that all concluded security protocols will be broken, and the principle of equality where established mutual foundations between humans and machines will cease to exist, broken by and for one party’s desire for world dominance. The machines will then, in principle, sadly still carry on our stamp as to the lust for power, an intimate desire, consolidated in the art of waging war, something so human.
I would like for you to consider these three factors that may or may not pose a global extinction of humanity, will by that refer to what the acclaimed neuroscientist and author Jeff Hawkins and his resent book from 2021, A Thousand Brains has listed below as follows, quote:
“But as we go forward and debate the risks verses the rewards of machine intelligence, I recommend acknowledging the distinction between three things: replication, motivations, and intelligence.” (Hawkins, p.169).
- Replication: Anything that is capable of self—replication is dangerous. Humanity could be wiped out by a biological virus. A computer virus could bring down the internet. Intelligence machines will not have the ability or desire to self-replicate unless humans go to great lengths to make it so.
- Motivations: Biological motivations and drives are a consequence of evolution. Evolution discovered that animals with certain drives replicated better than other animals. A machine that is not replicating or evolving will not suddenly develop a desire to, say, dominate or enslave others.
- Intelligence: Of the three, intelligence is the most benign. An intelligent machine will not on its own start to self-replicate, nor will it spontaneously develop drives and motivations. We will have to go out of our way to design in the motivations we want intelligent machines to have. But unless intelligent machines are self-replicating and evolving, they will not, on their own, represent an existential risk to humanity.
(Hawkins, p.169-170).
Presented in the previous section, appear as solid statements, where many of the worried factors can be mitigated. Will thus rather focus on the following scenario.
Considering that we will be able to live side by side with machines in the future, where the idea is to create a mutual understanding of mutual respect, people, and AGI, then this will be able to function as intended.
Thought-provoking:
The bible says that man is created in the image of God; meaning that all humans have an elevated status at birth. But then man wants to create machines that will then be viewed as the equivalent of man, will this not then fall on its own unreasonableness by that very notion. Will not machines then fall under our exalted state? I am at a crossroad by the very question, as where to stand on equality between humans and machines.
Machines today do as we command them to do, it applies to all of machine operated devices, the emotion intelligent machines of the future with the possibility of their own opinions about what they want to create, do or else, will machines based on the conundrum of equality of rights, then not go against their own core values - like the slaves before during the infamous triangular trade of the early 15th through to the late18th century, or the slave trade in the southern states of the United States until the turn of the 19th century, and the ongoing sex trade.
What I see clearly is that, yes, in the not too far future we will see a paradigm shift, we will create technological innovations that will move from thoughtless instrumental creations in the demand for production efficiency. But, when it comes to building a sustainable foundation based on the notion of equality of rights between both humans and machines, given, that yes, this is for now just a fantasy-philosophical angling, but still, one must then step aside to the right of way of the other’s right to self-respect, by and for all, justice through reciprocity.
Also noted, as when, should morality have its rights instrumentally implemented? Without a doubt, this will be some of the biggest obstacles that we humans must addressed in the future that may not just be a fantasy, but very possible a new reality. The ability of machines to harm people is in the state of fiction, received its ratification whereby it is said.
Isaac Asimov, the science-fiction writer, famously proposed three laws of robotics. These laws are like a safety protocol:
- A robot may not injure a human being or, through inaction, allow a human being to come to harm.
- A robot must obey orders given it by human being except where such orders would conflict with the First law.
- A robot must protect its own existence as long as such protection does not conflict with the First of Second Law. (Hawkins, p.152).
I know that much of what is written here come out as fictional nonces for many of you, but perhaps we will see this coming to the realm of reality. Now, if so were to happen, would this not also result in an equal legislation for us humans towards machines. So, we humans cannot harm any AGI, or as I see it enslave the AGI in any way as stated above. Let’s certainly hope so, respect on an equal footing, even if we are born in the image of Christ, and the machines is born in the image of man.
Jacobsen: Will the idea of genius become obsolete with advances in machine intelligence?
Jorgensen: The path towards creating machine intelligence. Well as l see it, it will be based on whether we ourselves will be able to form a total and uniformed understanding of our own intelligence. The term “genius” will remain, and as for me at least, regards to the creative level. The definable with intelligence is the ability to acquire new knowledge, i.e., with reference to the general basis that I am debating here.
Man’s ability to acquire, as well as adapt to, this newly acquired knowledge for one’s own good, which in turn can be built upon. The brains neocortex is about 76% of its total volume. This is where intelligence resides. Neuroscientist who studies the part related to human intelligence, have not to date, come to a complete understanding of that particular function, a lot of work still remains. It is pointed out in the book by the renowned neuroscientist and author; Jeff Hawkins in his lates book – A Thousand Brains, where it is pointed out that:
There are decades left, maybe more for a total understanding can be summarized, lots of puzzle board pieces are now understood, but putting these puzzle bits together into a complete comprehension, is still a long way off, but it will come into light someday… (Hawkins Jeff, A thousand brains).
If one will get this access to a full understanding of how the human
neocortex works with its connection to intelligence, then we can in a sense create a real AGI, where the general tendency can be built into the machines, i.e., self-learning machines, what is then called a “reference framework”, on which new knowledge can be built upon. This is then the new intelligence that will most likely dominate, maybe in our own century which Jeff Hawkins refers to and to which I agree. That differs from the learned specified knowledge that we today program into according to today’s AI.
When this happens, one can begin to consider whether the term “genius” will be diluted or not. I still do not think so, as the term is aimed at man’s ability to create, not a machine’s ability to produce fantastic works. We are unique in ourselves; we are the starting point for our inherent ability to create. Look at the value in what your own child creates in arts and crafts at school, point in case, of what my own children bring with them home after school, is by that, the most wonderful items we receive, not because it is incredibly well made, but because our children made it themselves. The same cannot be said about what a machine produces, and by that of any man-made work, we humans will prefer the later over any machine-made work, always, ask yourself, do you prefer machine-made artwork, or man-made artwork …? The term “genius” will forever remain.
Jacobsen: How will A.I. live in the future? How will human beings live in the future with A.I. making life more efficient, easier, in some regards, as now?
Jorgensen: Artificial intelligence will be able to help us humans in a variety of situations, for example, heightened customized performance within the medical field, super efficiency, specialized interventions, super adaptive parameters within economics, finance, and international trade whereby the implementer operation of interactive payment services, new and innovative initiatives for finance-based assets, and more seamless solutions for all border custom services etc. There will certainly be a lot of more of great solutions that one cannot imagine today. AI will probably continue as it is now currently doing within various factories around the world, only more specialized, and more effective.
That being said, the biggest changes will only happen when AGI becomes as functioning and as intelligent as us humans. The artificial general intelligence must first be equated with our own, it must function according to our own intelligence model setup, reference being made to the brains neocortex and how its parameters is laid out, only then will the great changes come into fruition. AGI will surpass anything that AI will ever be able to achieve. That said, I have previously mentioned that we humans have a specific setup of various emotions, the older part of the brain is responsible for this as the neocortex is viewed as the new part of the brain. But now we talk about some our primary functions aka the “old brain” and the senses thereof, human emotions like; sadness, pain, laughter, etc., AGI will function primarily by the modeling of the human counterpart the neocortex where the foundation for human intelligence lays.
So, AGI or Artificial General Intelligence will not be equipped with the same spectrum of emotions as us humans, this will perhaps be a matter for debate whether or not this will ever be implemented as a primary function or some form of subfunction for AGI sometime in the future, but again what would be the point? When one then talks about the spectrum of emotions that we humans have in all of us men, it must be pointed out that the older part of the brain that deals with these primary functions will be able to communicate with the newer neocortex, in the state of being able to create a holistic happening of what is expected of one. For example, if you are hungry, then the old part of the brain will register this, it perceives that the body needs food now, but it does not know how to do this, it needs the information from the neocortex that can then tell where this food is for us to then retrieve what is about to be consumed.
This is a huge simplification of the communication between the old brain and the neocortex, but the fact that the older part of the brain talks to the neocortex in order to make it easier to do the job we are supposed to perform. If you look at it this way, the the neocortex is our map, which gives us the exact position of where something is, as to what we want, i.e., the equivalent to longitude and latitude on a map. The old brain enables us physically to get to where the neocortex wants us to go to get what we need or want.
We humans have a need to see meaning through purpose in our daily life in one form or another, our everyday lives consist of lots of emotionally charged interactive moments that in return give us fulfillment as we go about our daily lives. This gives us purpose, it gives us a general meaning to carry on, but also presents us with our mortality too, which means, we all have a need to get the most out of our lives the time we have on this wonderful blue ball we call home. You can implement purpose into a machina as well, but the communication between the old brain and the neocortex must, the older part can produce the correct stimuli of emotions, but the neocortex must coordinate as to where it will happen or take place as to space and time.
Motion of thought: I proclaim, there is no merits of judicial justification for the primary implementation standard of AGI as I see it, regards to the integration of these emotion’ parameters. AGI will only ever just exist as an entity void of any sense of emotional awareness. Where then if I may, will, or should I say must the bridging between us humans and the machines take place if at all…?
As we humans tend to flee away from fellow human beings that seems emotionally dead, by that notion, this remark applies to the interactions between humans and machines, will not they too follow the same mode? Furthermore, will machines then also see this as a possible intersocial hindering that should be addressed, what then about the parent innovators behind these machines, will that have any furthering basis for their existential justification of these inventions regards to both the realm of the metaphysical, and philosophical perspective…?
When we talk about the future of machines, we cannot go about this and not mention the father of computers, Alan Turing, as we all known for the movie; “The imitation game”, whereby Alan Turing created a computer to solve the enigma machine that Nazis during WWII had going to cover what they were doing, where the next assault was going to be. The notion of Alan Turing and his proposal as to the imitation game; “States that if a person can`t tell if they are conversing with a computer or a human, then the computer should be considered intelligent” (Hawkins, p.159).
Will also consider the concept of eternal life. As a prolonged extension of our lives today is on the agenda, based on what the future existence and the need to move from our own planetary system over to other possible habitable planetary systems. The travel between these planetary systems will take long time, very possibly 150-250 years or more; will we humans not get tired of living, not including the time of hibernation or prolonged sleep due to long space travels? I have a friend who works with older people in nursing homes, many, not all of them, say to him when their time is at an end that; they feel ready to let go, they are tired, bored, or,
“I have lived long enough and now it`s time for me to rest”, these people died at ages vary from 80 to 95 years old, what would these people think about having to live for 200+ years? Does one run the risk of being “fed up” with life or not, as it is written in the song lyrics by the famous music band Queen; “Who wants to live forever.” Will the general opposition towards living extended long lives, as to be able to restart one’s existence on other planets be enough for an all-right global approval by being presented this opportunity, or will the opposition to extended life be too much to ask for or to be expected, what do you the reader think? I know what I think…
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
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Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11). December 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, December 8). Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (December 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AGI: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (11) [Internet]. 2022 Dec; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-11
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/12/08
Abstract
Tor Arne Jørgensen is a member of 50+ high IQ societies, including World Genius Directory, NOUS High IQ Society, 6N High IQ Society just to name a few. Tor Arne was also in 2019, nominated for the World Genius Directory 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe. He is also the designer of the high range test site; toriqtests.com. He discusses: the overview of making a curriculum for young students; content; independence of the teacher’s educational influence; the degree of accuracy of the curriculum; reinterpret the curriculum; and the case of a motivated, intelligent student.
Keywords: directives, Directorate of Education, First World War, learning paths, mandate curriculum, mental barrier, Norway, Norwegian schools, open tasks, Tor Arne Jørgensen.
Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I want to take this session to focus on curriculum development. As it’s something important for structured dissemination of required knowledge and skills to pupils, the creation of curricula suitable to students at different grades is important. What is the game plan or the overview of making a curriculum for young students?
Tor Arne Jorgensen: Giving a detailed overview of the full curriculum, or annual plans in this context, would be too extensive to undertake. But what can be said is that the curriculum follows the knowledge pledge of 2020 (Kunnskapsløftet 2020), for the school year 2022-23. Statutorily promoted by the Directorate of Education, that all the country’s schools must be regarded or understood as such, so by implementing these set of values presented from the education directorate’s which state the following about the academic structure, outlined below in points 1 to 4:
- The subjects’ relevance and central values
- Core elements
- Interdisciplinary themes
- Basic skills
(https://www.udir.no/lk20/idr01-02)
These four above directives must be included into each subject that the schools in turn must use as integrated subject guideline.
This of course is also divided into each tangled voluminous pompous phase, vividly inventive, so that we the puppets can manage to swallow the guiding’s delivered by these deranged misdemeanors of our puppeteers.
Apologize for my latter sarcastic outburst, but one must do what he thinks best…
Jacobsen: Mandated by the State, what content must be in there?
Jorgensen: The Directorate of Education has several divisions, with subsequent regulations that must be passed by the individual municipality that acts as the school’s owner.
The curriculum body of the Directorate of Education consists of an overall part, the distribution of subjects and hours and curricula in subjects. These are regulations for the Education Act and must govern the content of the education. The mandate curriculum subdivided below:
- Parent part
- Distribution of subjects and hours
- Educational program
(https://www.udir.no/laring-og-trivsel/lareplanverket/).
Jacobsen: No mandated by the State, what content can be added, finessed, or interpolated, for independence of the teacher’s educational influence?
Jorgensen: The design of these distribution models, which the Directorate of Education distributes to the schools, is drawn up according to fixed models, put forward by educational personnel, in collaboration with the various professional actors from the industry sector, the technology sector, and the research sector, etc. The sectors that bring the most to the table then becomes the leader in the design of the subject plan for the current school year. The various subject sectors will shape the pupils towards their subject models, which they can then benefit from when the pupils finish primary school.
What is then left for us teachers, as I said, we have rather loose frameworks within which we can work. The overall section published by the Directorate of Education, which then gives us is an extensive mandate for our work within the education course. What we as teachers can then implement is to some degree affirmed as extensive. We can purchase our own teaching material, which can be useful beyond what the schools may provide. Better learning platforms, expanding adaptations, and finally individually adapted extra material that students with extra learning potential can benefit from. Noted, that if we stretch our services beyond what the schools themselves provide, then we the teachers must then provide much of the financial support to acquire the material needed.
Jacobsen: Over the course of the school year, what is the degree of accuracy of the curriculum, either given or developed, and the information and skills disseminated to students? Is Norwegian education rigid or loose in application, in other words?
Jorgensen: At the start of the school year, we teachers make annual plans which then form our framework conditions for each semester. We the teachers choose what should be in these annual plans, but the Directorate of Education’s governing directives give us the direction of what overall obligations are to be followed. This means that we first look at what is put forward by the Directorate of Education (Udir) for socio-professional reasons within each individual subject, as well as age groupings, then we form the basis for the educational reference points that we must deal with. The individual subject teacher chooses relatively freely from in most times a large and varied supply of subject titles.
For example, if I want to deal with the First World War, in the 8th grade, then it is in the subject plans issued by the Directorate of Education for the 8th grade regarding topic of historical war acts, let’s say within the subject of social studies. The directorate of education then promptly refers to the statues of formulative, that; “the 8th grade students should familiarize themselves with acts of war related factuality’s that took place from the early parts of the 20th century and up to the mid-20th century.” I can then freely choose for myself whether it will be World War I or World War II, or the Korea war for that matter etc.
When it comes to whether we the teachers follow the original intended textbook in chosen subject field then answer is a resounding no.
The textbooks in many cases are not good enough, as they are in most cases mostly viewed as deficient, and not very educational directed by the selected study group, reasons of why this is many, mostly economic, there I said it. But if this should prove to be the case, the individual subject teacher can then decide of whether to move outside that particular subject book or books. And rather work with online teaching aids, as they may be better suited to accommodate the students’ curiosity and eagerness for new knowledge about that specific field of study. If so is done, the cost in most cases falls on the individual teacher to accommodate the students’ needs for better educational tools to work with. And no, we are not refunded for our personal spendings ever.
An exemplified picturesque glorification of our country’s education of our future citizens, looked after in the best possible way by our society’s leaders for maximum return.
Jacobsen: For some students where the material doesn’t quite ‘stick,’ how do you reinterpret the curriculum for them to ‘get’ it?
Jorgensen: The mental barrier that needs to be overcome for the individual student when he or she encounters the curriculum material, and how to approach it is by no means easy. I have seen through observation as to how each individual student works, and by talking to the students about what he or she does to adapt to the new material.
This is one of the things that you must address, to be able to grasp the bigger picture of how to approach to the student’s pleasure center when faced with new educational material. The methodology that I use the most, and as I perceive as the most beneficial approach of exploration of self-awareness, thus making the student aware of what is meant by the term best explained as; “curriculum thrill-seeking.” What is meant by that, well it can be easily explained by finding one’s trigger points in our learning paths, in the same way as trigger points to resolve muscle knots, or tackling stress centers, anxiety etc. We also have these when it comes to mental learning centers, or pleasure-oriented mental structural joints, we call it in Norwegian: (Lystbetont læring).
The student is guided so to identify these learning centers which will then in turn help the student the next time to mentally visualizing, and thus choose what type to replicate. And furthered, what type of approach to use as what was previously experienced to work best in relation to the curriculum material previously studied. This method of approach will work within any field of study at all levels of education. We are not talking here about cramming the material, or about using the scaffolding method, whereas you build upon previously practiced knowledge in several stages to find out for yourself which way you learn best, to be self-aware.
No, here we are talking about uncovering which centers provide access for the student in the face of all new knowledge. This does not need to be built on, you just bypass this process all together. The brain creates shortcuts to exactly what you recognize from mental stimuli, where you felt happy and at the same time learning at your best, i.e., a joining where learning becomes pleasurable, then you have a higher state of education that sticks.
This process is usually done within the first 2-4 weeks in the first semester, they just must crack this code first, then they will get access to pleasure-based learning and at the same time see the utility in this in the long run.
You must remember that learning new material can be in many cases be seen as losing weight, for example. You study like crazy before an exam and then after taken the exam you remember quite a lot of the material a few hours later, maybe even 20 percent a few days later, but all that studying for that exam falls away very rapidly. This can be compared to gaining and losing weight, for almost all people. One can be very good at slimming down and lose 10-15 kilos in weight, but as we all know all too well, for the vast majority of people this weight loss goes right back up after short period of time.
My six missions as an educator
1st mission is to expand the concept of education and the enrichments that follows, to broaden our understanding of unity, and our monocular constructs.
2nd mission is to inspire the students to evolve and strive for a greater self-awareness.
3rd mission is to help the students to identify who they really are in all roles of society.
4th mission is to teach about the concept of education as omnipresent, forever engraved in our DNA as an adventurous eternal learning curve called life. Only to be blissfully embraced throughout the generations as an historical treasure that can never be stolen nor lost.
5th mission is to educate about the importance of altruism, and further how to preserve and cherish all living things. In a society that sees to much suffering, we must help the ones in need, both humans and animals. We are guardians of life, we are the protectors of democracy, we are the ones that stands against injustice and society’s skewed distribution;thus, we stand united for equality and righteousness.
6th mission are words that comes from the heart to take hold off on their path towards global citizenship; I see you, I accept you, thus I embrace you, for you are like me, and we are the same.
Jacobsen: What do you do in the case of a motivated, intelligent student who consumes the entirety of the material, gets perfect or near perfect on the examinations, and runs out of material in the formal curriculum for the school year?
Jorgensen: As a rule, I obtain an overview of this type of student early in the semester, this in collaboration with the other subject teachers not only at my own level, but across levels. It must be remembered that in transition meetings between the steps, it is mapped according to each individual student, which is then archived. These folders contain everything discovered along the way on both ends. The schools are solution-oriented, and there is special material to meet these needs. It must be said that the understanding or uncovering of gifted students is poorly understood in Norwegian schools. This is now being worked on centrally according to the directorate of education, Udir, and I am in conversation with my own job, where this is now being worked on directly with the municipal management. As this has been pointed out, I have my own solutions for what can then be done to accommodate these pupils who have reached their maximum at their age level. There are several steps that can be taken.
- Refer to the step above, where these students encounter challenging teaching material in the subject groups where this is needed.
- Get extra subject material at the level the student is at in the subject groups that then again need strengthening.
- Be referred to in-depth, type 2, teaching in the subject groups that need strengthening.
- Be referred to another school, upper secondary school, where these students can get further reinforcement in the respective subject groups.
- Present your own subject material, with your own designed open tasks, where in correspondence with private sponsored faculties who have researched these students about the type of teaching material that the schools should use, i.e., sketches of how to hit the correct mark of higher goal attainment, through these individually adapted directives that are followed. I have then mentioned my efforts with the help of June Maker and her team, who work directly against this type of problem.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10). December 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, December 8). Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (December 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on Curriculum Development in Norway: 2019 Genius of the Year – Europe, World Genius Directory (10) [Internet]. 2022 Dec; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jørgensen-10
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/12/08
*Interview conducted on May 3, 2020.*
Abstract
Corey Moraes is Tsimshian. He was born April 14, 1970, in Seattle, Washington. He has worked in both the U.S.A. and in Canada. He has painted canoes for Vision Quest Journeys (1997). He was featured in Totems to Turquoise (2005), Challenging Traditions (2009), and Continuum: Vision and Creativity on the Northwest Coast (2009). He earned the 2010 Aboriginal Traditional Visual Art Award and Grant from the Canada Council for the Arts. His trademark artistic works are Coastal Tsimshian style with gold jewellery, limited edition prints, masks, silver jewellery, and wood carvings. Moraes discusses: a Tsimshian community; the earliest recorded history of the Tsimshian people; current population; the missionaries; the government; the four clans; language translation; colouring; the civilization; trade; natural disasters; European imposed theologies; and Creator.
Keywords: colouring, Corey Moraes, Creator, culture, Europeans, language, missionaries, Raven, trade, Tsimshian.
The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Before, we talked about some of the work that you do and leaving off with some commentary as a family and a child. Today, it will be on community and some of the contextualizations with a larger sense of self in tribes.
What is the context within a Tsimshian community of a sense of self?
Corey Moraes: How do we know who we are in terms of Tsimshian community historically? Everything was matrilineal. None of the major decisions were made without the input, inclusion, of the female leaders. But female leaders were never the chief; the chief was the final say.
Our social structure was very communal. You could have a dozen or more families in what our people call a Long House or a Big House separated by partitions with many generations all living together. But there were the common people and the people who had more inherent value because of their lineage.
It led right into the chieftainship and how that structure works. For example, a chief’s name has to go down. It doesn’t go to the chief’s son. It goes to his oldest sister’s son. If there is no nephew, then it goes to the next sister’s son, like that.
There were arranged marriages. Some of this, because of the clan system; our people had four clan names: Eagle, Raven, Killer Whale, and Frog. As I look back historically, I believe, this is my opinion, that those structures were set up to have an equal balance of hunting and fishing rights.
One family might have an advantageous fishing grounds or hunting area. So, they would marry another family who might have something else that they need and then build their power up like that. There was a high-level animism.
The belief that things were possessed with spirit. So, we were no more valuable than the animals, trees, rocks. We all belonged to your Higher Power or your Great Spirit. All of that was based on a particular mythology as well.
Jacobsen: What is some of the earliest recorded history of the Tsimshian people?
Moraes: It was always the explorers, the Spanish, for example. Not documented, but evidence of, is the Nordic peoples, the Vikings, had made their way. But as far as recorded history, it comes down to the European explorers. I don’t have an exact date.
There’s more that comes out in the present day. It contradicts what they have as established facts and anthropological facts. I think the biggest flaw in our history – other than not having a written history – is the things that we have created, historically, were often, or almost exclusively, created in biodegradable materials.
Jacobsen: Can you expand on that?
Moraes: Well, our lineage, family histories, village histories, were on totem poles and our regalia before European explorers brought over wool blankets. They were portrayed on animal hides. A lot of our history is made to rot.
As far as the oral history, that was our law. We found, as we look back, more power in oral history than we did in the form of written history. Everything was passed on orally.
Jacobsen: The current population sits under 10,000. Were the numbers historically at similar levels or higher/lower?
Moraes: They were much higher. I don’t have exact numbers. But we lost tens of thousands up and down the coast to a type of plague that only, recently, have I read an article that based patient zero in Vancouver Island. It was by transferring infested blankets.
They knew that these blankets were infested with smallpox. They knew that our commerce relied on trade up and down the coast. So, they knew these blankets would cover a lot of ground very quickly. There’s a lot of documentation of the horrendous result of the smallpox plague on men and children.
Haida-Gwaii, for example, it decimated their population to just a few hundred before it was stopped. They had tens of thousands before that. That shows a stasis of how devastating European illness was on us.
We had no antibodies to fight off these viruses. They very quickly found out the weaknesses. They could exploit our social structures. A lot of that hinged on trade.
Jacobsen: Was this grounded in the missionaries?
Moraes: The missionaries played a large part in trying to abolish the Aboriginal from the ground up. We were forced to adopt new belief systems. We were forced to stop speaking our language when they realized that they couldn’t kill us with virus. They started introducing alcohol.
When that was working sufficiently enough, they looked at what is the core of a village. The core of any village was its children. Its children were its future. So, they decided to remove the heart of the communities and take all the children and put them in Residential Schools, forced them, beat them.
If they spoke any of their language, which was all that they knew, then they took them to far flung Residential Schools, which weren’t anywhere near where their village was. They refused to let their parents visit them.
There are documents of missionaries writing to various white settlers saying, ‘These poor Indians. They don’t care about their children. They’re going to be alone for Christmas. If you can spend a few days to take care of this child and do God’s work, it would be greatly appreciated.’
They paid them. They used our children to experiment on. One of them was starvation, to see how long they could starve before they died.
Jacobsen: How was the government complicit?
Moraes: The government interests have always been in the land. Even with the Magna Carta and the European construct of obtaining lands via conquests or cession, in the United States, the lands, obviously, were acquired via conquests. They murdered every man, woman, child, and senior, until they gave up.
In Canada, they went the way of cession paperwork. Where, they would tell them, “Look, the Settlers are non-stop. They are going to keep coming. It is in your best interest to hand over your land to us to care of. In return, we will take care of you, take care of your lands,” which diminished more and more as resources were found, explored, and exploited in reservations getting smaller and smaller.
So, they wanted the land. What was standing in the way of them were the first inhabitants of North America, to this day, there is a trust, which contains monies for Aboriginal peoples. Any of the monies being distributed today are only being taken from the interest of the original money started.
So, when you hear people say, “These are unceded territories.” They are referring to the government never signing any agreement that say the original peoples give this land to them. The Canadian government is described as caring for the Aboriginal peoples in exchange for the use of the land.
Jacobsen: Regarding the four clans of Eagle (Laxsgiik), Killer Whale (Gispwudwada), Raven (Ganhada), and Wolf (Laxgibuu), what is the clan for you?
Moraes: I am Raven.
Jacobsen: What is the contextualization with that particular clan in specialization?
Moraes: As I said, each clan had certain hunting and fishing rights. I need to close my thought loop there. My wife and I are both Raven Clan. Historically, we were never allowed to marry the same clan. You had to marry another clan.
That’s why I say, ‘Looking back historically, I am a believer. This wasn’t to prevent incest.’ Because there was incest within royal families in Europe to protect the bloodline, to purify it, much as how you get a pure bred dog.
It was done in Aboriginal cultures. I think, at its core, the clans were set up to equally distribute the hunting and the fishing rights. So, if the Raven clans had very strong hunting territories, but were weak in some fishing areas, they would find another clan – Eagle, Wolf, Killer Whale – that would fulfill that requirement.
They would arrange the marriages. It was an equal distribution of power. So, it wasn’t so much that Raven had certain responsibilities and Eagle had different responsibilities. I think it broke down to distribution of wealth. I don’t know what the modern term would be for that.
Jacobsen: For the language translation, why is it real or true tongue?
Moraes: There are a lot of words in the English language, which we don’t have in our traditional Sm’álgyax language. And the other way as well. There are words in our language that require a phrase in English to be the nearest interpretation of what that word means. For example, our village is called Lax Kw’Alaams. Lax Kw’Alaams means “the people of wild roses.” There are wild roses growing on our island. “Lax” means “the people” much like “Volks-” in “Volkswagen” as in “people wagon.” Right?
So, some of our things are literal. Other ones aren’t. What is even worse, much like the English language, one word can be spelled many different ways for the same thing and many words can have many different meanings depending on the context in which it is spoken.
That’s why translating our language into a narrative in a book can be most challenging because transcribing it word-for-word into English loses much of the meaning.
Jacobsen: In terms of art and colouring, most nations of people, whether modern or not, have particular colourings associated with their own culture. What is the colouring associated with the Tsimshian?
Moraes: Predominantly red and black.
Jacobsen: Why?
Moraes: We got black from charcoal. We got red from ocher. They were viewed as life and death. Additional pigments that we brought in; I don’t know much about the meaning of the additional pigments. Some of it had to do with region.
For example, a copper oxide colour could only be obtained from a small area in the Chilcotin River. Some of those pigments could only reach the Tsimshian by a certain timeline. They sometimes added it because it deepened out colour palette.
Also, when Europeans arrived, they brought things like Chinese red, for example, which was a different shade, and vermilion. These things, when you look back at the historical pieces, speak of the inclusion of trade with Europeans.
Jacobsen: Is there any indication as to how old the civilization is?
Moraes: It goes back. Anthropologists think it may go back more than 10,000 years. Some evidence crops up, even in the present day, that it goes back 40,000, or 60,000, years. A segment of my population and I believe that we very well may have come across a land bridge. I would say the majority of our people.
Because they have so much stripped of them and their identity. They refuse to believe that we just sprung up out of the ground here. That there’s so much similarity between our people and plains people and Asian cultures.
Jacobsen: How was trade in association with art productions with surrounding nations?
Moraes: It was our gross domestic product: our art. Our people were very static in Northern coast. We worked very hard in the Spring and the Summer, and used Fall to prepare the reserve of the things that we worked so hard to preserve, e.g., using air-drying process, pickling, and smoking, to increase the cabinet life of the things that we harvested.
But during the Winter months, all of our fishers and all of our hunters had a lot of time of their hands. Being in such close contact with wildlife, that became the natural platform for transcribing our stories into artworks.
These artworks were commissioned by our high chiefs and, sometimes, by high chiefs of neighbouring villages, which is why, sometimes, there’s art anthropologically. There are totem poles, for example. There could be a totem pole in Bella Bella.
A lot of people say, “That’s a Tsimshian totem pole.” Others will say, “That’s not a Tsimshian totem pole. It’s in Bella Bella.” A Tsimshian carver could have been commissioned to make a totem pole that was for Bella Bella.
Jacobsen: Did any natural disasters impact the culture?
Moraes: Natural disasters, absolutely, there’s always talk of a great flood that killed a large portion of our population pre-contact. Historically, there’s a legend that that something had a terminology placed on it in the ‘60s by a white scholar named Bill Holmes.
He had such a keen interest in Northwest Coast history. He was cataloguing and studying all of these anthropological pieces. He had to put a word to the form. He had to come up with a collective term for all of the languages. He coined the term “Formline.”
It is a non-Native term. Additionally, our people didn’t even have a word for “art,” which is what all of our pieces are viewed as and categorized as; they’re seen as “works of art.” But to us, they were a dialogue. They weren’t something to be hung on a wall and admired.
They had their own spirit. They portrayed stories and legends. Some of them so powerful that they were only brought out on special occasions. They knew when they transmitted their power in the performance. Then they were put in a box and never shown until the next performance when they were required.
Jacobsen: How have European imposed theologies mixed for some members of the community with traditional beliefs? Some of the animism, for instance.
Moraes: Very much in the Tsimshian community, which is why the majority of our grand works were destroyed, they were burned. The theologians believed that we worshipped totem poles. The reason that they believed that; they found them to be idols, pagan idols.
You know the history of organized religion and paganism. One example would be a totem pole with wings. If a silhouette, what does it resemble?
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Moraes: In traditional Christianity, as you know, they have a belief in angels. In our spiritual belief system, Tsimshian, in particular, we had more of an angel, Nax’nox. That was a spiritual being that transmitted certain messages.
So, those two things formed the basis for a very basic understanding of why the Tsimshian took so enthusiastically to Christianity, as we were a progressive people. Tribes, one to another, would want to be labelled more progressive than their neighbour. “Progressive” meant “power.”
They willingly gave up their culture because they thought, if they jumped on the Christianity bandwagon, they’d be more progressive than their neighbours.
Jacobsen: What makes Creator, in the traditional belief structure, similar and different to the Christian God?
Moraes: The Christian God was a very vengeful person. Whereas, our Bringer of Light, which was Raven, was a multi-flawed Creator. To understand what I mean when I say that, he always wanted to do something progressive. But, oftentimes, the method in which he did that hurt him more than it hurt anybody else.
An example of that would be Raven with a broken beak. A very quick story of that is Raven is trying to steal a halibut fisherman’s catch. In his greed, he pulls on the fish so much so that the halibut hook catches his beak.
In his greed, as he is pulling up to try to get away with the catch, he breaks his beak. His great beak is hanging down off of his chin. That’s one example. What would you call that?
Jacobsen: Damage from a well-intentioned flawed plan.
Moraes: Yes, there you go. Also, Raven brings light to the world. Have you heard that story?
Jacobsen: I don’t recall this.
Moraes: It varies from tribe to tribe. The gist of it: Raven knows the Chief of the Sky has greedily retained the Sun and Moon, and the stars, in a great wooden chest in his longhouse. The world is in darkness.
So, Raven devises a plan in which he is going to get to that box. Depending on that village or tribe that you are talking to, I’ll give you one example. He notices that the Chief of the Sky has a very beautiful daughter.
He has attested that he is not going to release any of these Sun, Moon, or stars. He loves his daughter deeply. So, Raven transforms himself into a pine needle. One day, the Chief of the Sky’s daughter goes down to the river and collects water.
Raven has a needle and gets taken up with the water. She drinks the water and becomes pregnant and has this child and seems like the Virgin Mary, right? She births this little boy, who is the grandson of the Chief of the Sky.
At one point in the young man’s life, he becomes inconsolable. The Chief tries anything that he can to console his grandson. The boy, he keeps wanting the Chief to open up the box. He cries enough so the Chief relents.
He opens the box and lets the child play with the Sun, the Moon, and the stars. He tells him, “I’ve got to put them back when you’re done.” One day when the Chief wasn’t paying close attention; the young boy transforms into Raven, who was white feathered, Raven grabs the Sun and proceeds to fly through the smoke hole.
It is a large on in the ceiling of the longhouse, which always a fire pit in the center. As he is flying up through the smoke hole to the release the Sun, he gets covered in soot and gets covered in black.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2). December 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, December 15). The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (December 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Tsimshian 2: Corey Moraes on Community and Mythologies (2) [Internet]. 2022 Nov; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-2
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/11/15
Abstract
Dr. Herb Silverman is the Founder of the Secular Coalition for America, the Founder of the Secular Humanists of the Lowcountry, and the Founder of the Atheist/Humanist Alliance student group at the College of Charleston. He authored Complex variables (1975), Candidate Without a Prayer: An Autobiography of a Jewish Atheist in the Bible Belt(2012) and An Atheist Stranger in a Strange Religious Land: Selected Writings from the Bible Belt (2017). He co-authored The Fundamentals of Extremism: The Christian Right in America (2003) with Kimberley Blaker and Edward S. Buckner, Complex Variables with Applications (2007) with Saminathan Ponnusamy, and Short Reflections on Secularism (2019), Short Reflections on American Secularism’s History and Philosophy (2020), and Short Reflections on Age and Youth (2020). Silverman discusses: civilizations and periods; less effective traditions; rounded ethics; rationality; human wellbeing and species survival; a creative life; alternative meaning; and human fallibility.
Keywords: Amsterdam Declaration, eudaimonia, democracy, Glasgow, Humanism, Humanists International, Scotland, The International Humanist and Ethical Union, universalism, Would You Be My Neighbour?.
Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We have done a number of sessions back-and-forth for some time. It’s been a real pleasure and privilege to keep doing these when the time permits. It’s a rare intergenerational access. We have covered the 1952 and the 2002 Amsterdam declarations and, at the time, the prospective 2022 Amsterdam Declaration. It has been approved by the global democratic body of Humanism, Humanists International, in Glasgow, Scotland. This was the 70th anniversary of Humanists International, formerly The International Humanist and Ethical Union. I was unable to go because of work at an equestrian facility 6 or 7 days per week. (The event was in competition season.) I wanted to cover this declaration. It opens with noting humanist beliefs are as old as civilization and bears semblances in most societies. Are there any civilizations or periods in which humanist beliefs were simply not present in any way?
Dr. Herb Silverman: I think Humanist beliefs and values have always been present in every society, long before Humanism was defined. Many people have been and are humanists who hadn’t heard of Humanism. I used to be one of those people, as I suspect most Humanists were. Unfortunately, Humanism has not and does not dominate most cultures (think Nazi Germany, and authoritarian regimes today).
Jacobsen: It claims Humanism as a culmination of these traditions of meaning, ethics, and reason. What does Humanism shed from other less effective traditions in the light of this culmination mentioned?
Silverman: Humanism sheds religious beliefs based on so-called “holy” books written thousands of years ago. Many well-meaning religious people pick and choose from their preferred ancient book and ignore embarrassing parts. They haven’t taken one addition step of rejecting their holy book and treating it as any other book where we keep the good parts and reject the bad parts. A friend who supports gay marriage pointed out that that the Bible has countless passages about social justice and only five that condemn homosexuality. He didn’t have a good answer when I asked how many condemnations of homosexuality it would take to reverse his position. Humanists don’t have rules etched in stone. We have principles and values written on paper, and some of our ideas might change through a continuing process of observation, learning, and rethinking. Reason usually hasn’t been present in religious traditions, and our ethics sometimes change as we learn more about how better to interact with and treat others.
Jacobsen: Its main point starts on being ethical. Inherent in its stipulations is the umbrella of eudaimonia, by my reading of it, they have explicit mention of democracy, diversity, individuality, nature, rule of law, peace, and universal legal rights. Ones seemingly more new would be diversity, individuality, and nature or the environment. Although, I haven’t done a systematic review of the three declarations. As you have seen these changes over time in the declarations, what makes this more rounded as a humanist perspective?
Silverman: I think successive declarations have become more rounded because over time Humanists have learned about possible errors we have made and how to correct them, and also about new problems that must be worked on. In the past, Humanists concentrated on humans, the worth and dignity of all human beings and the need for universal human and legal rights. All good things, but this latest incarnation also focuses on all living things that we want to help flourish and avoid suffering. After all, we know that humans are just naked apes. We now realize we must accept responsibility for the impact we have on the rest of the natural world, especially regarding climate change.
Jacobsen: Rational is stipulated as the second point. I like the combo of reason and action. It’s a small touch, but it’s important to make doing something as explicit as possible. What can be impediments to acting on rational and ethical motives?
Silverman: Acting rationally is generally a good thing, but not always. If the only consideration for a business is making a profit, then it’s acting rationally when it charges exorbitant prices for a drug that people need. This is where ethics should trump profit, but I also see potential problems with ethics. For example, some people (usually Bible-based) believe it is unethical for anyone to engage in gay and lesbian sex, and they try to pass laws to make such activity illegal. One person’s ethics can be viewed by others as bigotry or racism.
Jacobsen: As science is an epistemology and technology is ethically neutral, but comes out of discoveries from science, they followed in the footsteps of the other declarations about never using science and technology “callously or destructively”. How important is this note for human wellbeing and the species’ survival?
Silverman: Science and technology can be used wisely by Humanists, while considering human values. I first thought about this as a child when I read about Frankenstein (an example of science and technology gone haywire). We need to use science and technology to enhance human well-being, not simply because we have the technical know-how. Though we have lethal weapons, we should try to avoid using them. We should promote peace and peaceful negotiations whenever we can. I consider myself a pacifist, except for World War II.
Jacobsen: They emphasize something dear to me: The pursuit of a creative life. To me, this is core. I value the pursuit of creative and enjoyable pursuits of open discovery more than most things. For a life of fulfillment, have you found any limits in humanists known to you?
Silverman: I think some Humanists can be too woke for me. Some insist that everybody proclaim which pronoun they identify with, and they criticize those who say “Black” instead of African-Americans. Those who try to restrict people from using language that others might find offensive should know that the antidote to offensive speech is your free speech right to rebut. I think Humanists acting too woke can be counterproductive when we try to bring others into the Humanist camp. I’m also concerned when Humanists publicly criticize other Humanists unfairly. One recent example is when the American Humanist Society took back the 1996 award to Richard Dawkins as Humanist of the Year, mostly because they disliked some of his tweets that they felt demeaned some marginalized groups. I think Dawkins has done more to bring atheism and humanism to countless Americans than any other individual. If the AHA stopped respecting Dawkins, they could just not give him any more awards. Such public rebuke, in my mind, was unconscionable.
Jacobsen: The declaration ends on a fourth point. This is a shortlist, but comprehensive: ethics, rationality, fulfillment, and alternative meaning (signification) and purpose. They mention Humanism as an antidote to “dogmatic religion, authoritarian nationalism, tribal sectarianism, and selfish nihilism.” This is a full list. The demands on oneself are high with Humanism, but humane. That’s what I gather from this. The building of the better world is a recognition of both human refinement by oneself and others, and human fallibility to make mistakes and then to work to be better the next time around. How do you view this fourth point, especially in relation to the other points about ethics, rationality, and fulfillment?
Silverman: I especially agree with the point that all humans, including Humanists, are fallible. That is why we try to learn from our mistakes, exchange ideas with other Humanists and people who are not (yet) Humanists. We can learn from others and sometimes change our own ideas. I like when this happens to me. By sharing our values with others, I think we can help build a better world.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Silverman.
Silverman: Thank you.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022. November 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, November 15). Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (November 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Would You Be My Neighbour? 2: Amsterdam Declaration 2022 [Internet]. 2022 Nov; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/neighbour-2
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/11/15
Abstract
Corey Moraes is Tsimshian. He was born April 14, 1970, in Seattle, Washington. He has worked in both the U.S.A. and in Canada. He has painted canoes for Vision Quest Journeys (1997). He was featured in Totems to Turquoise (2005), Challenging Traditions (2009), and Continuum: Vision and Creativity on the Northwest Coast (2009). He earned the 2010 Aboriginal Traditional Visual Art Award and Grant from the Canada Council for the Arts. His trademark artistic works are Coastal Tsimshian style with gold jewellery, limited edition prints, masks, silver jewellery, and wood carvings. Moraes discusses: some personal and family background; proficient in carving; production of art; the observations of youth; the ovoid and the U form; the more advanced forms; some of the feedback; longevity in a piece; and a piece speaks to you.
Keywords: Canada, carving, Corey Moraes, Indigenous, Native American, ovoid form, Seattle, The Tsimshian, U form, United States of America.
The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1)
*Interview conducted on February 10, 2020.*
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, let’s start from the top. What are some personal and family background? Was there a bit of artistic license when young?
Corey Moraes: You want to know where I was born, stuff like that.
Jacobsen: Yes.
Moraes: I was born in Seattle in 1970 into an impoverished, single-mother structure. My father was never really there for me. He was murdered a week before I turned 4-years-old. By the time I was 5-years-old, I witnessed my mother almost died from an injury by one of her many boyfriends that she had. We bounced around from as south as California. Until, we settled in Surrey by the time I was 8-years-old. I was here until I was 30 before moving back down to Seattle. It was supposed to be for a apprenticing totem pole carving. I ended up meeting my now wife and having four children. If you go back to my being raised up here, my mom always tried to keep some constants in all the many moves that we had to meet growing up. One of the things that she tried to keep constant was to, at least, have some sort of Native representation, where there was a drawing or something mass produced. She always encouraged me to have pride in our culture and in our background. When I was about 10-years-old, she was dating this Haida jeweller and Argillite carver named Pat Dixon. Pat would complete his works in our little apartment. That’s where I got my real first exposure to work being created. It fascinated me to see what I had normally grown up with, which was called form design. Ovoid and U form being constructed almost like Lego. Until, you create some kind of character or creature. I saw him having these designs just flow out of him onto the sketch pad or pieces of silver, or pieces of black shale, also commonly known as Argillite.
But as with any of the relationships with my mother, it always ended in violence. He wasn’t around for too long. While he was there, I believe that the seed was planted, at the very least, which bloomed much later. I didn’t become completely interested in our art form to the point of pursuing it, until my mid-20s. Before that, a couple of stalled attempts at a post-secondary career, where I learned computer technician(-ship) and telecommunications. It wasn’t for me. After that, I thought, “I want to try something more grassroots and give back something to my neighbourhood, and my culture. So, I wanted to be a drug and alcohol counsellor.” I took training in that. It has a high burnout rate. The turning point for putting my full attention into the art came when I was literally floating down the creek in an inner tube. One of my mentors, I confessed to them that this counselling that I was doing was far too taxing on me, emotionally. It came from the finest of intentions. It wasn’t working. They said, “There are more ways that you can give back to the culture and to your community than just as a counsellor.” It encouraged me to do what I eventually settled on, which was fine art. For the most part, I am mostly self-taught.
Jacobsen: How long does training take to become proficient in carving?
Moraes: I think it depends on your enthusiasm and whether or not you’re doing it part-time or full-time. I refused to get a job despite my present girlfriend-at-the-time’s lamenting. At any given time, I had more value in a finished work that would pay for all of my bills at the present time, but things weren’t selling. You have to convince the market that you are serious about putting out consistent work. That takes, at least, a couple of years for people to even begin to know your name. Yes, a lot of sleepless nights, a lot of missed bills, creditors chasing me around. I think it is a proving ground for how much this means to you. At least, back in the ‘90s, it has changed dramatically since then, since the advent of social media and the internet. I can’t remember the last time I walked out of a gallery with a paper cheque in my hand. Things are done electronically.
Jacobsen: What does a consistency in production of art do for one’s career? What do periods of inconsistency of production of art do for one’s career in those periods of inconsistency or consistency?
Moraes: By “consistency”, what are you referring to: the quality of the work or the output of the product?
Jacobsen: I would say, “Both.” Both the quality and the quantity at reasonable expectations for a sustainable life.
Moraes: I have done both in my career. I have put out so much work consistently, several pieces a month. That I would have some orders say, “I don’t know how you do it. Because you have young kids at home.” I would say, “I do it because I have young kids at home. I got bills to pay.” The opposite end of the spectrum, I have put out very minimal work over the span or two or three years. To the point where the galleries begin to get a little more curious, “Is he coming to the end of his career?” They almost become masochistic in their approach to me. Because I don’t approach galleries the way that I used to; I used to pander to the audience, the galleries, and their needs. I don’t anymore. I think that speaks to 20+ years, coming up on 24 years here now, of a wide range of artwork that can all be drawn back to the same stylistic impression of what it is that I do. Whether I do it in silver, wood, airbrush, watercolor, acrylic painting, oil painting, puppetry, animation, illustration, all of it looks like it has come from my hands. None of it has strayed too far from what is my artistic integrity and my vision for what it is that I would like to see exist far beyond my lifespan.
Jacobsen: How have you taken some of the observations of youth, as well as some independent research into your own heritage, to inform some of your more prominent artistic productions? In other words, seeing the evolution of that over time.
Moraes: You’re referring to “youth”, as in what?
Jacobsen: So, you were mentioning, for instance, the Haida jeweller, seeing others in your life, as you are developing as a younger artist, kind of do their own art who are veteran in the field and kind of transitioning over time as you are gaining more knowledge, and incorporating that in your productions.
Moraes: So, you’re talking about the evolution of the art form.
Jacobsen: Yes.
Moraes: When you’re beginning to learn this form, this goes back you had asked about proficiency and how long it takes to become proficient. This art form is based on 2 or 3 really basic elements: the ovoid, the U form, some people say the S shapes. It consists of these really basic elements. These really basic elements may be words. They are an alphabet. They create words. As you get better, you create sentences. As you get better, you create paragraphs. At which point, you get to the point where I am at, where you can create a long poem or a short novel of sorts. As I became more proficient in the language of this Form Line, I have been able to stretch the discourse of what this art represents, where it resides in the timeline. My challenge, now that I know that I can create these long phrases and poems, and short novella of Form Line, is to go into other directions much as a writer might. I have my superhero genre that I focus on. I have a writer help me with the storyline on that now. I have children’s material/direction that I go and work with. I have the very classic style that I do. I also have a very almost New Age style of work that I do that incorporates contemporary, almost pop culture, elements. On top of all of this, one of my pet projects is kind of a cross-pollination of pan-Pacific Rim innovation, which, basically, means I see a lot of core similarities between ancient Japanese artworks and classic Northwest Coast style. By bridging these two together and cross-pollinating them, I have come up with something that looks like it has always been there. That exists of a kind, doesn’t look strained, doesn’t look forced. That’s kind of where I am at now. I have connected all of these threads. I have gathered them up with both hands and am weaving a fabric now. The past and present, and what I want to see in the future.
Jacobsen: Why are the ovoid and the U form the fundamental characters – the line forms?
Moraes: It has been widely investigated and disputed over all of contemporary society works, where stuff originated from. You can look at it from an anthropological point of view. You can look at it from a scholastic or even an artistic point of view. But I think it comes back to spirituality. One of the best explanations I heard came from a dear art from of mine who passed away, Beau Dick. One of the first times that I ever met him was when I came up here from Seattle. I had to do a photo shoot for a book/art show called “Totems to Turquoise.” This is something that began as a cultural exchange between New Mexico turquoise and silver artists cut into Haida Gwaii and seeing out how art and jewellery is presented there. The Haida Gwaii artists came down to Santa Fe to see how their art was fabricated. I was there with a bunch of other artists waiting their turn. Beau came up to me. I was a wearing a hat woven by a Haida weaver that I painted. The way that I painted it was all-encompassing. It wasn’t just something that was slapped on like a patch. It took up the full space of the hat. He recognized that right away as a classic. He knew who I was from other publications. He is talking to me and gushing about the complexities of the Form Line on this hat. He says, “Do you know where these forms came from?” I said, “I have heard various stories. What do you have?” He said, “We have all heard of the Great Flood. The Great Flood affected a lot of our peoples. When it receded, it took a lot of our art away. It left a lot in its wake. One of the things that was on the beaches were these forms. He saw the ovoid here. He saw the U form over them. These were given by the Creator to us. It was a way for us to rebuild what was taken away from us.” So, I’ve always liked that explanation because loss came another gift. That gift was the ability to convey art, mythology, to covent our family histories through this new form.
Jacobsen: What are some of the main forms that you’re portraying in the more advanced forms? Once you’ve gone from single letters to use your analogy of writing to these poems and short stories, what are the representations there?
Moraes: What I really want to convey when I am doing a classic design, like a box design or a chest design, I want the people to be able to let their eye dance along with the rhythm that I am creating with this art form. A lot of people have described my art style as almost sensual compared to other artists. There is a very on-purpose direction to my art. But it is not done in a clumsy manner. It is not done in a way that is offensive. It is very appealing to the eye. This is what I have been told. I think what I am trying to get across is that you can reach a level of art form, of creation, where time almost stands still. When you’re standing in front of a piece of my work, I want that piece of work to draw you in, to make you forget about whatever it was that was going on before that piece. I want you to revisit the piece that I create at different times throughout your life if you happen to own it. I want you to see different things every time that you come to that piece. In my vision, what I am trying to create this form, I want it to be almost multilingual. I want you to see something different every time that you look at it.
Jacobsen: What has been some of the feedback on those?
Moraes: I can tell you a quick story of this piece that I did. It was based upon this song. This Japanese artist was in this movie Kill Bill Vol. I, which I just watched again, recently. It is called “Battle without Honour or Humanity”. When I hear this, this song is instrumental. I see a very specific, vibrant image in my head. I try to portray this on the panel that I have created over a few months. It was a double-layered panel. The basis of it, there was a Form Line design on the bottom with the background of a leaf. In the forefront, there was the yellow cedar that I carved in what the sculptural thickness would allow. To complete this complexity of the panel, I incorporated a dorsal fin from the killer whale. I had to make, I think, 186 varied-sized pieces of wooden dowel for the suckers for the octopus to be put onto the tentacles. Anyways, I completed this piece. It sat in Douglas Reynold’s gallery for months. Doug told me this story about this millionaire from Alberta who comes through regularly with his kids. They rent a limo from the airport. On the way to Whistler, they always stop at Douglas Reynold’s gallery. These sons saw this panel for the first time. They couldn’t stop staring at it. His dad brushed it off and went about other business and a bunch of bigger artists. They came back through again some time later. He asked, “The art piece,” as they rotate the art pieces in this gallery, “Where is that octopus and killer whale?” They had to go into their storage and pull it out for him to stare at again. This went on for several trips, Doug said. His father, the millionaire collector, never thought much about this until so many visits went by that he thought, “He is really attached to looking at this art piece” [Laughing].
Jacobsen: Right [Laughing].
Moraes: He stopped what he was doing. He looked at the piece and just from the infatuation that his young son had with this piece. He decided to connect. He purchased it. To me, it was a changing of the guard. There is this passing of past collectors; that are downsizing their world now. Their kids have moved out. They are starting to get rid of large art pieces. These are the Baby Boomers. The next generation that is growing up behind and who are coming into their own now. That’s what I believe his son represents: that generation that sees something different in the art. A lot of the people have said that my art is ahead of its time. That one particular panel didn’t speak immediately to that father because his head is wrapped up in the art collecting period from the late ‘60s up until about the ‘90s, about a 30-year span. Whereas, his son’s head is more towards what the future of this art can represent. I believe that piece, when it is looked back upon maybe 10/25/30/40 years from now, will be seen as a piece that spoke to the younger generation more than the Baby Boomers.
Jacobsen: How do you ensure longevity in a piece? Or is that even a reasonable question?
Moraes: I like to believe my pieces will continue to persist long after I am gone. There are times that I’ve started pieces and not completed them. I have put them away for 7 years or more. It has to speak to me. I’ve tried to do work that is much more shallow. I can’t. It fights me. I’ll end up stabbing my hand by accident. I’ll slip. I am arguing with the piece. I have to be at one with the piece for lack of a better term. Sometimes, it is this unspoken dialogue that “this doesn’t belong here. This has to stay. This has to be dug deeper.” When it all works well, sometimes, my best pieces are kind of the most painful to get out because with jewellery, for example. If I have to do all kinds of hand-finished tacking, and if it feels like it is starting to aggravate me, I get agitated because I will want it to be done. That’s when I know I am on the right track because, now, I am out of my comfort zone. When I out of my comfort zone, I know this piece will speak because I am putting a lot more work into it than usual. Those turn out, for me, to be some pretty special pieces, I believe, have the potential to speak as strongly if not more loudly down the road.
Jacobsen: What is the feeling when a piece speaks to you, at first?
Moraes: The only term I can give is that they are kind of like my children. There is a joy there for being honoured enough to have that connect with my hands. At the same time, it is kind of jarring to realize that, “Yes, I am self-taught. How did this happen?” But it is starting to make more sense now; that I’ve had actual children and the very last one is almost scary to me. Because he’s just like me. But he is me who still has a father, right? He’s not me whose father was murdered before he turned four, which really set up some huge potholes down the road in my life, growing up without a father. So, he has a father. Not only does he have a father, his father is artistic. And his father’s artisticness has passed on to him in spades. He’s far more talented than I was at that age. He is far more grounded than I was at that age. As long as I am still living and breathing, I will continue to foster these things in him. I know that he is going to be an artist out of the four children that we made together. One of them has come out as very, very heavily creative. That makes sense to me now, because, before this, I wouldn’t see any connective thread to the creative force. But it was there. I just didn’t know how to explain it. Now, I can, because he’s clearly part of me, clearly part of my wife. He’s most, obviously, going to be a creative force to reckon with in 10, 15, 20 years.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1). November 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, November 15). The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (November 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. The Tsimshian 1: Corey Moraes on Art and Family (1) [Internet]. 2022 Nov; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/moraes-1
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/11/08
Abstract
Mizuki Tomaiwa was born in 2000 in Japan. She is an American college student with an interest in the biomedical field, psychiatry, and gifted education. She respects Leonardo da Vinci, Bach, Liszt, and her parents. She earned an I.Q. of 183+ (S.D. 16) on the Cattell CFIT. Tomaiwa discusses: growing up; extended self; family background; youth with friends; education; purpose of intelligence tests; high intelligence; extreme reactions to geniuses; greatest geniuses; genius and a profoundly gifted person; necessities for genius or the definition of genius; work experiences and jobs held; job path; myths of the gifted; God; science; tests taken and scores earned; range of the scores; ethical philosophy; political philosophy; metaphysics; worldview; meaning in life; source of meaning; afterlife; life; and love.
Keywords: Bach, Cattell CFIT, God, intelligence tests, IQ, Japan, Leonardo da Vinci, Liszt, Mizuki Tomaiwa, OLYMPIQ Society.
Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you were growing up, what were some of the prominent family stories being told over time?
Mizuki Tomaiwa: When I was younger, I often disagreed with other classmates.
But my father was always fair in discussing my opinion versus other opinions. My mother affirmed me.
Jacobsen: Have these stories helped provide a sense of an extended self or a sense of the family legacy?
Tomaiwa: They will definitely be useful in the near future.
Jacobsen: What was the family background, e.g., geography, culture, language, and religion or lack thereof?
Tomaiwa: My family, including myself, are Buddhists, but I can’t say that our faith is strong. We enjoy Halloween and Christmas.
As for geography, our house is surrounded by nature, and we often hear the singing of the Japanese bush warbler.
The language in the home is Japanese. I use English at school.
Jacobsen: How was the experience with peers and schoolmates as a child and an adolescent?
Tomaiwa: Unfortunately, my adolescence was a sad one.
I was constantly trying to fit in with others and had to suppress my outpouring of curiosity. Every time I tried to match with my classmates, my heart was worn out.
I had no schoolmates with whom I could talk. I always felt alone.
In Japanese schools, everyone has to be the same. Talent and individuality tend to be unwelcome. However, according to Japan’s Ministry of Education, Culture, Sports, Science and Technology, more than now, expert discussions are being held to accommodate individual abilities, such as math and other skills.
Jacobsen: What have been some professional certifications, qualifications, and trainings earned by you?
Tomaiwa: I have a certificate of English proficiency in Japan.
And I graduated from ESL at Langara College in Canada. This is the English proficiency equivalent to university entrance.
Jacobsen: What is the purpose of intelligence tests to you?
Tomaiwa: I occasionally come across a test that is exciting to solve.
Jacobsen: When was high intelligence discovered for you?
Tomaiwa: Around February 2021.
Jacobsen: When you think of the ways in which the geniuses of the past have either been mocked, vilified, and condemned if not killed, or praised, flattered, platformed, and revered, what seems like the reason for the extreme reactions to and treatment of geniuses? Many alive today seem camera shy – many, not all.
Tomaiwa: The frog in the well that knows the blue sky tries to get out.
The one without knowledge is the one who scoffs at it.
Jacobsen: Who seems like the greatest geniuses in history to you?
Tomaiwa: Leonardo da Vinci.
Jacobsen: What differentiates a genius from a profoundly intelligent person?
Tomaiwa: Deep love for all things.
And sometimes creative.
Jacobsen: Is profound intelligence necessary for genius?
Tomaiwa: I believe that geniuses connect those dots in the future by learning a wide range of fields through intelligence. Many dots make ideas creative.
Jacobsen: What have been some work experiences and jobs held by you?
Tomaiwa: Work as a tutor teaching math, English, science, Japanese, and social studies.
Work taking care of children after school.
Jacobsen: Why pursue this particular job path?
Tomaiwa: For several reasons, being in contact with children reminds me of my childhood.
Jacobsen: What are some of the more important aspects of the idea of the gifted and geniuses? Those myths that pervade the cultures of the world. What are those myths? What truths dispel them?
Tomaiwa: It is a myth that geniuses can do anything and rarely make mistakes.
All people have different orientations and interests.
Jacobsen: Any thoughts on the God concept or gods idea and philosophy, theology, and religion?
Tomaiwa: Just as people like beautiful flowers, God also likes people with beautiful souls, so those who have them leave this world early.
Jacobsen: How much does science play into the worldview for you?
Tomaiwa: For me, it is a thought process.
The process of questioning, trial and error, and then coming up with an answer is important to me.
Jacobsen: What have been some of the tests taken and scores earned (with standard deviations) for you?
Tomaiwa: Cattell CFIT (sd 16) 183+.
Jacobsen: What ethical philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?
Tomaiwa: Remember to be grateful for the services you receive, even if you have to pay for them.
Jacobsen: What social philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?
Tomaiwa: History is driven by people’s anger and frustration.
Jacobsen: What political philosophy makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?
Tomaiwa: Governments that do not invest in education will not grow.
Jacobsen: What metaphysics makes some sense to you, even the most workable sense to you?
Tomaiwa: No study is considered valuable from the start. It is important to keep exploring.
Jacobsen: What worldview-encompassing philosophical system makes some sense, even the most workable sense to you?
Tomaiwa: Every person I’ve met has been a teacher in my life.
Jacobsen: What provides meaning in life for you?
Tomaiwa: Life is challenging, but that is what makes it meaningful and interesting.
Jacobsen: Is meaning externally derived, internally generated, both, or something else?
Tomaiwa: Meaning may be influenced by its surroundings and it may have it’s own. They depend on each other.
Jacobsen: Do you believe in an afterlife? If so, why, and what form? If not, why not?
Tomaiwa: I believe that when our souls are gradually purified by reincarnation, we will be reborn into something higher by the approval of God.
Jacobsen: What do you make of the mystery and transience of life?
Tomaiwa: It is like the dreams you have when you sleep, no matter how happy or sad they are, they will end someday.
Jacobsen: What is love to you?
Tomaiwa: It is the most precious thing of all.
And love remains long after the death of a loved one.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1). November 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, November 8). Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (November 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Conversation with Mizuki Tomaiwa on Life, Work, and Views: Member, OLYMPIQ Society (1) [Internet]. 2022 Nov; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/tomaiwa-1
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/09/22
Abstract
Curtis Boehm is another son – alongside Jeremy Boehm – of the founder of Wagner Hills, Helmut Boehm. Boehm discusses: the story; main methodologies; experiences of individuals coming into recover; experiences of individuals helping those in recovery; evidence-based treatment; spirituality or religion; the “Higher Power” concept; the most tragic story; and the most heartwarming, uplifting story.
Keywords: British Columbia, Canada, Curtis Boehm, God, Jeremy Boehm, Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use, recovery, theist, Township of Langley, Wagner Hills.
Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was the start of the story in finding recovery for you?
Curtis Boehm: I do not have a personal story of recovery. The start of my awareness of recovery was observing my father’s work, as he counseled men in recovery at a center he founded.
Jacobsen: What seem like the main methodologies utilized in recovery systems in Canada?
Boehm: In my experience, there are a handful of approaches:
Harm reduction aims to provide basic safety to those in active addiction, through access to safe injection sites and shelter, and aims to be a stepping stone towards more lasting levels of recovery.
Voluntary, informal groups such as Alcoholics Anonymous, Narcotics Anonymous, and Celebrate Recovery provide support for those seeking change in their lives. These are low-commitment, low-cost approaches to helping people in recovery to continue but are less effective for those trapped in active addiction
Residential programs require much more commitment and offer much greater help to those seeking holistic recovery. These are much more expensive to offer.
Jacobsen: What are common themes amongst or between the experiences of individuals coming into recovery?
Boehm: Common themes include self-defeating attitudes and behaviour, hopelessness, desperation, and suicidal ideation. It is also common for our men to not be able to communicate their feelings accurately or easily.
There is a willingness to “try anything” to get better.
There is often a willingness to surrender to others’ guidance since the self-determined path has not worked.
Jacobsen: What are common themes amongst or between the experiences of individuals helping those in recovery?
Boehm: Common themes include the desire to show compassion, the desire to relate with the experiences of the individual, and the communication of affirmation that a person has come to the point where they are ready to seek help.
Also there is often a sense of purpose or calling to the work of guiding those in recovery.
Jacobsen: How much does evidence-based treatment play a role in Canadian treatment?
Boehm: I am not familiar with this term. I can’t speak to it’s use in the Canadian context.
Jacobsen: How much does spirituality or religion play a role in Canadian treatment?
Boehm: The most effective recovery programs are faith based. My experience is that programs that invite those in recovery to examine their whole lives, paying attention to physical, emotional, and spiritual layers, are the most likely to lead to enduring recovery. The deeper questions behind the patterns of behaviour also have more to do with the inner spiritual realities of a person’s life than with the events or bahaviours.
Jacobsen: What is the role of the “Higher Power” concept, or even the concept of God, in some treatment systems in Canada?
Boehm: My experience has been working within a faith based, Christian recovery program. We encourage those in recovery to turn control of their lives over to God, surrendering their judgement and relying on God’s character and activity to bring them out of the destructive cycle of behaviour. God is a life-giving, unconditionally loving, forgiving master.
Jacobsen: What has been the most tragic story known to you?
Boehm: I have known several young men who died after overdosing.
Jacobsen: For a happy ending, what has been the most heartwarming, uplifting story of success in treatment known to you?
Boehm: There is a 26 year old man who has nearly completed 12 months of his recovery at the center where I work. His joy and success have been heartwarming and uplifting. He is going to represent the center on an upcoming fundraising trip. Also, he has taken on a level of responsibility in his role as a kitchen assistant and is rising to the challenges presented to him. His success is a really encouraging part of how I have come to think about the center where I work.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God. September 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, September 8). Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God. In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (September 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm>.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.11, no. 1, 2022, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm.
Vancouver/ICMJE: Jacobsen S. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 4: Curtis Boehm on Recovery, Systems, Christianity, and God [Internet]. 2022 Sep; 11(1). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/curtis-boehm
License
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.
Copyright
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2022/09/15
Abstract
Jeremy Boehm is a lover of music, art, and sports, and loves to spend time with his young family and animals on his hobby farm on Vancouver Island. Jeremy has a BA with theological and youth ministry emphasis from Calgary and furthered his education in counselling with focus on addiction for a second career in supporting those with substance use disorders. Boehm discusses:finding recovery; main methodologies; experiences of individuals coming into recovery; experiences of individuals helping those in recovery; evidence-based treatment; spirituality or religion; the “Higher Power” concept; most tragic story known; and heartwarming, uplifting story.
Keywords: British Columbia, Canada, God, Jeremy Boehm, Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use, recovery, theist, Township of Langley, Wagner Hills.
Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was the start of the story in finding recovery for you?
Jeremy Boehm: After a career as a minister for fifteen years, I had the choice to relocate to another job, or seek local work. The area was perfect for our family, and relocating pointed towards uprooting the life of our children. Instead, I brainstormed other fields, and considered the environment I had grown up in, at Wagner Hills in Langley, which is a therapeutic Christian community for the healing of those with addictions. Working in recovery introduced me to people who seemed stripped of the pretense, and social-status devices in the culture around me. I was enthralled with the authentic vulnerability, and bravery of individuals who felt they had lost everything. As I feverishly studied the neurology of addiction, and the habit-structures, reward-structures, and motivation-structures of the brain, I interacted with fresh and honest people who challenged my status quo. I had decided to end my use of caffeine a year previous, and discovered just how challenging daily-cravings, triggers, social pressure, and reinventing my life, minus caffeine, could be. While embarrassed to admit how challenging this struggle was, in light of the much more difficult-to-control effects of street substances, I began to understand the commonality that all people can relate to in a struggle with change, unhealthy habits, motivation. Then as I identified how other parts of my life were out of order, I began to see that nearly all of us can relate to putting too much importance on the wrong things in our lives. When we examine these things that we place too much importance on, it can be a struggle to redefine fundamental meaning in their absence.
With my new career, to educate myself, I read the ‘Big book’, and was shocked at how important the content is for our culture, so many years after its publication. I began to lose my prejudice against ‘AA’, and to lose my former assumptions about addiction. I learned that trauma was the common denominator in people I counselled, and that ‘alcoholism’ was not solved by improving self-control. I also began to learn evidence-based practices, to supplement the old-fashioned counselling I had seen practiced in churches, so my college-days love of psychology returned. However, I began to become disenchanted with what I began to understand as a cognitive solution for some who identified themselves as ‘insane’ in their addiction. From a neurological point of view, the damage substances like alcohol caused in long-term use, seemed to remove any hope in the power of a cognitive solution, even if there was one, since the neural damage from prolonged use could be devastating. At the same time, I began to recognize the value in rational emotive behavioural therapy for myself, and in mindfulness exercises and the power of self-talk. I went on to study counselling and a world of help was opened to me. However, I began to see that there was a rift between knowing and doing. This took me back to my roots at Wagner Hills, where I studied the concept of ‘therapeutic community’, the technical name for a community my father founded for healing in addictions. People took part in a work-program, with a spiritual approach to long-term healing. The ‘doing’ rather than learning approach, proved to lead to more effective outcomes compared with those I encountered in ‘recovery.’ The focus seemed to be a key difference. My research in the neurology of focus and desire confirmed that successful outcomes were prone to come from refocussed desires, rather than repressed ones, and that the brain seemed to heal best from reinforcing happy healthy habits rather than fighting with bad ones. My growing appreciation for the very model I grew up with at Wagner Hills, led me to network with like-minded people in hopes of furthering this vision. I currently work in rehabilitation to support people’s mental health and in their substance-use disorder.
Jacobsen: What seem like the main methodologies utilized in recovery systems in Canada?
Boehm: A menu of mindfulness practices, and psychoeducation with forms of cognitive behavioral therapy (like SMART’s rational emotive behavior therapy), have merged, mixed, and are replacing the existing 12-step foundations that have existed for decades through the recovery world. Clinical practice also seems to be replacing a heritage of peer-to-peer counselling and support group forms, yet these groups and meetings still thrive, through pandemics and cultural shifts. The current approach seeks to replace a ‘spiritual solution’ that ‘works’ through ‘surrender’ and finding support among peers through a ‘higher power,’ with a clinical approach that empowers, and erases shame. In the medical world, a different approach has also shifted the culture of recovery entirely with the advent of ‘harm reduction.’ With the attitude of providing the greatest care and safety our society can give, to those with substance use disorder, safe-using supplies, and safe injection sites with safe-supply of medical-grade versions of street drugs. In conjunction with mass distribution of harm-reducing naloxone kits, and education to practice safety, this method aims to eliminate stigma,and put people first.
One aspect of harm-reduction is medication offered as a support for recovery. Many recovery and treatment centres utilize opioid replacement or opioid agonist therapy approaches alongside traditional abstinence-based programs. More progressive still, is a movement to normalize drug-use. In this thinking, substance-use is not viewed as a disorder at all, but is part of a normal human experience to medicate pain and trauma with drugs/medications, as has been practiced over time. Harm reduction in this scope, aims to safely and freely supply drugs and medications of all kinds, for those who choose to medicate their trauma and pain with them.
The methodology of a recovery centre that asks participants to surrender their phones for social-detox, provide urine-test, participate in classes, and receive support in cessation from their ‘drugs of choice’, has undergone some significant disruption and changes in recent years, as these cultures and ideologies crash into each other. Prejudice, stigma and judgement can be found within those who attempt to help those with substance-use-disorder when conflicting ideologies clash, and people’s approach becomes polarized into camps, rather than listening to each other’s experiences and values. While spirituality has always and still plays a major part in the process, recovery centres have needed to modernize their approaches in ways that meet the standards set by health authorities. This has resulted in a reduced-emphasis for spirituality, 12-steps, abstinence, peer-counselling, therapy from past trauma, and a greater emphasis on evidenced-based techniques, and clinical practice, including counselling forms that deal with the practice of the here and now, rather than what happened in the past. The stereotypical revolving door has left some cynical of the results of recovery, while, on the other hand, the outcomes of opioid agonist therapies have left opponents cynical of a medical approach.
Many of the individuals I meet with who struggle with substance-use disorder, report that a treatment centre is their best option and, depending on what stage they are in, may report that they are working up their courage to attend one, again.
Jacobsen: What are common themes amongst or between the experiences of individuals coming into recovery?
Boehm: In the past, the theme of ‘surrender’ was a major emphasis of recovery. The thinking was that a person needed to come to grips with the fact that they couldn’t do it alone, proved by the fact that despite their attempts, they were still unsuccessful. The solution that was proposed, was that a person surrender to a higher power with the help of others around, and through a system of steps, a person evolved from blaming and denying, to supporting and giving their recovery to others. With research, modern counselling methods, and mindfulness practices, such as breathing exercises, and forms of distress-management, the current major theme replacing these past themes, is one of empowerment through skills and mental tools.
Based on my experiences with those in recovery, a timeline could be sketched to describe the landscape of those in stages of readiness for recovery, including the individual’s age, amount of attempts, emergencies, and deaths of loved-ones to addiction. Many that stuck with their programs had the motto, “It’s this or I die.” On the other hand, many young first-timers explained how the court, or a wife that didn’t really understand the situation, had forced them to ‘deal with’ something that they already had under their control. I never encountered someone who had been a part of the fad of ‘interventions’ that happened twenty years ago or so, but have heard many reasons for people entering recovery.
Jacobsen: What are common themes amongst or between the experiences of individuals helping those in recovery?
Boehm: Many have ‘been there’ and are helping others out of a lifestyle they had experienced and felt was horrible. Others, like myself, can relate to a life that can get in disorder, and find it important to support people in desperate circumstances. With the brain restructured, and pulled by the immense gravity of relapse, following long periods of substance use, outcomes can be very discouraging. Those of us in the world practice enormous self-care to persevere through the discouragement and tragedy we encounter. It seems that overdose is common, and even death seems to get less attention than ever. With these conditions, and the deplorable suffering for those we care for, many rely and trust in a higher power for spiritual sustenance, and learn many ways to self-care in a career that can easily lead to burn out.
Jacobsen: How much does evidence-based treatment play a role in Canadian treatment?
Boehm: Thankfully, I doubt there is a place where evidenced-based treatment isn’t practiced to some degree. I had heard that years ago, there were recovery centres that used 12-step models, exclusively. Only one book was provided – the big book. It is of course possible that such places still exist, but I am not aware of any. As research has informed the education and climate of recovery, punitive methods have thankfully disappeared, to be replaced with helpful trauma-informed models that understand core reasons that people use substances to cope with life.
Jacobsen: How much does spirituality or religion play a role in Canadian treatment?
Boehm: I would say that spirituality plays a major role in the roots of recovery in 12-step models and programs, nearly 90 years-back, and has informed substance-users that recovery is something that is not accomplished independently. The role of religion is that it seems to have offered a lot of funding, and support for the development of recovery centres. For example, I know my dad used to tour churches to tell people about the therapeutic Christian community he founded, and congregants would volunteer to financially support or visit Wanger Hills and serve there. Spirituality, as defined by 12-step groups, has always been inclusive, and has facilitated the resistance many have formed toward religions for various reasons. Practices such as prayer, played a major role. For example, AA meetings end with the prayer of serenity “God, grant me the serenity to accept the things I cannot change, the courage to change the things I can’t, and the wisdom to know the difference. Prayer books often accompanied AA literature. The stereotypical setting for a meeting was a church, as churches often had free or cheap rental fees, big coffee urns, and demonstrate accommodating attitudes to those in recovery. Today, in recovery centres, Spirituality may include “Smudges”, and First Nations Spirituality is often honoured and encouraged.
Jacobsen: What is the role of the “Higher Power” concept, or even the concept of God, in some treatment systems in Canada?
Boehm: In a 12-step framed model, the role of the Higher Power, is the power to change for the person who feels powerless. The concept of God is the unconditional loving receiver of the rejected person who has broken every promise and provided pain to every relationship in their life. God is also the one person who can never be fooled, who stands as judge, but also as the one who forgives, and frees the person to forgive, to let go of their need to control others, to let go of their pain, and let go of the painful actions toward others, and can provides a new identity that can do good to those who were harmed. In a setting I worked in, I was surprised to see that videos from pastors and priests were viewed, along with other religious ceremonies. I encountered some in recovery who said “I’ll try it all, anything that works!” Other places focused more on breathing, meditation, and viewed religion and spirituality as a means to the end of sobriety. With this mindset, religion was used as a kind of evidenced-based practice. What I mean by this, is that if religion brought results, it was considered a positive therapy to add to the menu of recovery. At Wagner Hills, God is the centre of the programing and framed everything else. Music directed toward God frames each morning. Then through the day, clients work together with others, to act justly, value-people, and help to work for the world that God designed it to be. Focus on a relationship with the loving God, which when focussed on creates a love for others, diminishes selfish-destructive-desires, and is the essence of the actions and behaviour of everything practiced at Wagner Hills.
Jacobsen: What has been the most tragic story known to you?
Boehm: I supported a young person with mental illness, who had very little idea of the dangers of the drugs that he began to experiment with. He was found, sadly days after he died alone, and was missed deeply by friends he was so generous to. The inclusion of fentanyl in nearly every street drug, and the extreme-risk it presents, have made naive experimentation so lethal. In cases like his, he was gone, before I, or many of his friends, knew that he was even trying substances.
Jacobsen: For a happy ending, what has been the most heartwarming, uplifting story of success in treatment known to you?
Boehm: As a child, one of the most memorable clients from my fathers healing community for those with addictions, for obvious reasons, was a wonderful man who had one arm. He was so joyful, and played with my brother and me, with such enthusiasm, attention, and kindness, while he amazed us by throwing perfect spiral football passes. His joy was contagious, and still is, as he continues to help others nearly forty years later. I guess a good ‘heartwarming’ story should have a dramatic before-and-after story-arc, so the reader could fully appreciate the contrast of a changed-life. I have no idea what his ‘before’ story was, only that he was from a First-Nations background and must have arrived at Wagner hills to overcome addiction in his life. I think of this story, because it literally warms my heart to just think of him, and the joy he gave me and my brother, in his new found freedom at Wagner Hills. It is heartwarming to think that he is still giving that joy away today.
Bibliography
None
Footnotes
None
Citations
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2). September 2022; 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm-2
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2022, September 8). Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2). In-Sight Publishing. 11(1). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm-2.
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. D. Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2). In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 11, n. 1, 2022.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2022. “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (Winter). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm-2.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott “Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2).” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 11, no. 1 (September 2022). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm-2.
Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2022) ‘Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 11(1). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm-2>.
Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2022, ‘Portraits in Substance Misuse and Use 3: Jeremy Boehm on Concepts, Praxis, and Stories (2)’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 11, no. 1, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/boehm-2>.