Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/05/13

*Further original, internal sources are at the bottom of the article.*

*Interview conducted April 16, 2024.*

Ms. Oleksandra Romantsova is the Executive Director (2018-present) of the Center for Civil Liberties in Ukraine, which won the Nobel Peace Prize in 2022 under her and others’ leadership in documenting war crimes. This will be a live series on human rights from a leading expert in an active context from Kyiv, Ukraine. Here, we talk about updates from February 5 to April 16.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, so today, we are here for our fourth interview with Oleksandra Romantsova of the Center for Civil Liberties in Kyiv, Ukraine. We have been covering the human rights aspects or facets of the Russo-Ukrainian war based on Russian aggression into Ukraine starting, in terms of a full-scale invasion, on February 24, 2022. I am based out of nearby Montreal, Quebec, Canada, so the time zones are more helpful this time than from Vancouver. Our last interview was February 5. So, we will start with the reportage from that time and continue forward from there. I will begin with a general sense. What have been some of the changes in tactics and some of the newer human rights trends you have noticed in the Spring of 2024 so far?

Oleksandra Romantsova: First of all, that was the opening of the second warrant of the chief of the army of the Russian Federation about shelling the civilian system. One of them made some little breaks, which was interesting. When you have this break, nobody attacks you via rockets. You are thinking about when they start to do that. It started months before. Now, it is the middle of April. That was the middle of March. They started shelling every day, during the day. It can be 50 rockets, some drones, or something like that. If something happened in Kyiv, then this means something happened in Dnipro, Zapirozhzhia, Mykolaiv, and other places. So, the main change is that they attack concrete electricity systems. They stopped doing that. We waited in the Winter because it is usually more painful without electricity, but they started in the Spring. Before that, Ukraine was a big country that produced much electricity. We sell it. We have many rivers with the stations. They try to destroy bigger stations. Which is called Dnipro station [Ed. Dinpro hydroelectric dam], these systems are regularly attacked now.], It was built during the Soviet Union. Before, there was an explosion by Hitler’s army. So, for image, it is a wrong decision for the Russian military to try and destroy it. They supply a few rockets to them. However, it still works now. They have some images, but not crucial. They are trying to stop Ukraine, try not to allow us to have businesses, economics – any processes. Things people can need or want: leave Ukraine, etc. I do not know the main idea behind this targeting. People will speak about fighting. The more problems we have, the less support we have from the US, and the fewer shells we have. If they figure out the channels and what they are trying to do, they will put much effort into propaganda in the United States. They want to show it is not an important question – Ukraine – and Israel is more important. The US is totally in the process of election now. They are not so quick to make this decision. This means we are prepared to fight but do not have enough arms. That is a big problem. It is a big problem for us because it means that every day, people die there on the frontline. People are dying here because we do not have enough shells. We do not have enough shells to destroy their rockets, which they send to our cities. We know that. We have the skills, but we do not have the tools to implement what we know. It is the situation. This means that things have changed a lot inside Ukraine. It is primarily a reaction to that.

Jacobsen: What about the European Union providing finance, shells, and fighter jets?

Romantsova: The European Union decided to support us, meaning they will start producing more shells and can help us after a year. We must survive this year without enough shells, so that is the problem. 

Jacobsen: With regards to the gridlock happening in a lot of American political cycles, is it more or less accurate when Zelensky states that if the United States does not support Ukraine with more resources, the Russian Federation is likely to take much Ukrainian territory if not win the war against Ukraine? [Ed. The new bill was passed on April 20, 2024, to support Israel, Taiwan, and Ukraine. Likewise, The Associated Press reported on ways military aid can be expedited. The expectation is a giant spring of aggression by the Russian Federation forces. NATO and others look to air defences for Ukraine. Kremlin claims America is repeating Vietnam-like humiliation, and more deaths will follow the aid package.] 

Romantsova: Good question. The biggest problem is that people forget about the situation. The situation can get worse, not better. It is not a good position for politicians. People think of the Ukrainian war as a usual thing. Some politicians state this as a typical war, a usual thing. They say, “Ukrainians will fight. It will be long. So, Ukrainians can do that alone.” However, we cannot… we can be finished. All of us who stay here will fight. All who do not will not prepare to continue to fight. They will start just going to other countries. It creates a crisis. Even certain millions of people are not easy for Europe; this makes them less and less comfortable. Is it possible Ukraine will fall? Yes, it is possible. It means all of us will be dead. It is impossible to have a miracle. Something is blowing up in the political system of the Russian Federation. If it happens, all of us will be surprised. It is not exactly what you can plan. You can say, “Everyone, we planned that. We account for that or something like that.” No, we have one chance. It will be fought until the Russian Federation breaks down at the economic or political level, but it will not take one month. It takes years. That is why, for us, it is essential to remember the USA. It is not a question that some Ukrainians ask more than others. It is a question: If Ukraine will lose, it will be a problem for all of Europe. Some countries like Hungary or Slovenia have started collaborating with Russia. It is not so big, the castle. It can be the point of turn that can be a game changer. Although this situation is game-changing, it can be like this now. That is why we speak with Americans; even Europe will start to support us with the same money. However, you cannot shoot with cash. It would help if you hit with guns. So, we need guns. Most of the guns that we need are in America. As you know, the Canadian army cannot help. 

Jacobsen: No, they have been in a tough spot now. They have also been shrinking for a while, even within an infusion of over $70 billion over several years [Ed. Two decades.]. The Canadian army is in a tough spot ethically and politically. Even though Canadian citizens who are not serving members will give contradictory or seemingly conflicting responses in surveys, on the one hand, Canadians will want Canadian forces to be more active in international affairs. Still, most do not want to serve in the first place. Fundamentally, they want to help other nations with their problems, but they do not want to be the ones troubled with helping those problems. There are violations of the rights of men and women in service. Internationally, in terms of NATO commitments, because we were well below even the minimum standard of relative GDP contribution (2%) to the Canadian Armed Forces, we may send 1,500 service members to Latvia; however, in general, we are pretty limited in our contributions internationally, except, maybe, in training, where we might train Ukrainian captains in French. Also, we have ancient equipment across the board, from rifles to submarines. So, on the Canadian side, I would not expect significant contributions from the Canadian Armed Forces for some time.

Romantsova: Canada has provided good financial support. However, that is the problem. You cannot eat money. You cannot shoot money. You need money transformed into something. Most of the support for our budget is limited only to social needs. So, that means that is why Russia attacks concrete suppliers, power plants, etc. Because we need 40% of our budget, which is produced by our economy, in steel, only this 40% can be used for arms, guns, and supporting the army. All other support from outside of Ukraine has conditions. We can use it only for salaries and pensions. Stuff like this. That is why it is so important to get support from the USA; support from the USA was for arms. That is the difference.

Jacobsen: One political commentator in the United States commented on the effect of weakening an enemy or rival nation with violent intent while also supporting a country in need and a more robust and muscular ally, which is a win-win situation. Also, the creation of those arms strengthens the American economy. It would be a positive in general for the American State. Now, about the human rights conditions of citizens, the newer actions or the stronger push has been toward the targeting of critical infrastructure in Ukraine by Russian Federation forces. People probably will not see this video, but the lights are off in your place. They are not off in mine. Even in Kyiv, they are targeting electrical grids and stations. How is this change to try to terrorize the public even more, impacting the trends of fighting and then the morale of the public at large?

Romantsova: It is a good question. During this time, we have one month of changes to legislation for recruitment and mobilization to the army. Many people do not like these changes. A lot of these people do not like these changes. What other decision can be made? No, you are not like this. What do you propose as a way to do this? So, but still, as for me, it is understandable. All of us, my team, and I, have the opportunity to work only because people from frontlines support us. They help us because they defend us. We are here because it is not our turn to go to the frontline. Maybe it happened. Perhaps it happened that even such a person who does not have any war specialization or something needs to go to the frontline. It is possible. As for me, it is still a big question. How does the army need to be organized? What kind of solution? What kind of weapons? What type of ammunition do people need? Because we will always have fewer people than Russia because Russia is four times bigger by population and four times less attractive to save someone. So, they do not care. They may care about some generals or professionals but do not care about soldiers. So, they can send thousands of them to kill a few Ukrainians because for them… we see this the last ten years. They do not care even about their population. It is a big problem. We call this an asymmetric answer. So, if they have many soldiers, we must have a lot of technology, such as drones. A lot of this is not about human rights. It is tough to speak about human rights when you have such a situation with war and your situation of security. So, from our side, we have not changed from the other side.

People still give their donations and lots of donations. Ukrainians collect the money and send it to volunteers for the technology, which they believe supports our citizens on the front lines. Drones, for example, or ‘a system of audio fighting,’ may be translated like this. It protects soldiers from drones from the Russian side. It still happens through NGOs. Minister of Defense they have their process. However, they are still working through NGOs, just through NGOs. 

Jacobsen: How is the public morale in Ukraine now? Does it vary by city, or is there a general high or a general low?

Romantsova: All of us are tired and depressed. However, it does not change the situation. Yes, we are pretty not the politest and kindest people now. When people speak about an attack in Moscow, we are not celebrating, but we are not waiting or something. Israel was attacked. I have friends in Israel. However, sorry, all of this rocket and shell was destroyed before. However, nobody does that for Ukraine, and it is every day. Missiles killed people. The USA still discusses whether they need to support Ukraine or not. It is terrible competition. It can lead to more suffering from some war or not. However, it is still emotionally hurtful when people say, “Ukraine is one country to get attacked every day.” It is injustice. 

Jacobsen: Is the general idea that the Russian Federation is planning a more protracted war, given that it contributes one-third of its expenditures to the military?

Romantsova: Nobody knows what kind of plan Russia has. I think they need some victory. However, tomorrow, Putin can say to his population. “We have a victory,” and then stop the war. He can imagine. He can make his propaganda make any picture. We try to guess. They send more and more signals, not directly to Kyiv, but to different international parties. They want to have a negotiation. Now, they are on the negotiation side. We would be strong enough. If they stop this line and lead by their control of more than 21% of our territory and more than 6,000,000 people for them, it will look good enough for them. For us, it is destroying any opportunity to bring back these people. We do not know how many lives are changed because Russians kill every day. It is the same thing. We do not see what happens with kidnappings. First of all, it is not a question. I do not have an answer. I have the purpose to fight. I do not know what the end will be—peace for us. If we exist, it means they bring back all of our people and are protected from Russia. It is important. Ukrainians do not like fighting. Ukrainians fight because we have no other choice but to defend ourselves. We will stop the fight if someone proposes another way to define ourselves. I think it is okay for us to look to other situations. People need to be released. It is important.

Jacobsen: In late February, President Zelensky went to Saudi Arabia to push for peace in a push for POWs in Russia. How was the POW (prisoner of war) situation with Ukraine and Russia? Has anything gone forward about exchanges?

Romantsova: They (POWs) are still there. They have one or two exchanges. That is all. It begs the question about civilians. We do not have only prisoners like combatants who are going to become prisoners of war. Also, all the prisoners of war, when they return to us, are in bad condition. They torture them. It is a good question. The status of prisoners of war is a status in international humanitarian law, which needs to protect you if you recognize the other side, e.g., prisoners of war. They need to care about you, give you food and normal conditions, not extremely hot or cold. You need to get medicine support if you need it. It would help if you had the opportunity to make contact with your family. Russia does not do anything of that, mainly through an International Committee of the Red Cross. So, you can be judged through the court because you take the duty in the army. Russia breaks even this. So, they put them in jail, some prisoners. It is like a big argument from Russia’s side when trading inside negotiations. That is why they take people. They only need the people to press Ukraine down for the arguments as to why their proposition needs to be taken. Until now, many NGOs here, every day, including prisoners of war and civilian prisoners, have different communication campaigns around the world about that. Still, it is a point number for politicians in policy. It is still painful here.

Jacobsen: What about the elections in the Russian Federation with these murders, etc.?

Romantsova: It is like the election of President Putin, which wins President Putin. It is not an election. For 20 years, the Russian Federation has not had any elections. It is like Belarus. Nobody believes it is an election. Navalny is trying to push it in some way to use the mechanisms. They are trying to use different tools to create some intrigue there. However, no, it is always the election of President Putin. Now, it is illegally recognized. They include in this election occupied territory, and they make this illegal process poison. The election will be the same with Lukashenko (Belarus). Lukashenko was not recognized for the last election. Putin, as I understood, the European Union has this position. I do not hear about the consensus of West’s voices that now he is illegal. However, he still leads the Russian Federation.

Jacobsen: What about the UN nuclear watchdog director going to Moscow to discuss nuclear safety in Ukraine? Was there any result from that?

Romantsova: Nuclear safety in Ukraine is one of the most significant results, not because they released the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. They think it has much more of a role than India, China, and somebody from the West to stop something terrible from happening. Macron changed his position in this way. He started answering, “Okay, you are not alone with nuclear weapons.” It is a significant change. It is not because of Ukraine. It is because Wagner made a problem for the French army. You feel that you live on a small, connected Earth. That is the source of my optimism. We are still determining what we will indeed get from the Russian Federation. If China changes some positions, Russia will finally need to take back their army.

Jacobsen: Since joining NATO and ending its post-WWII neutrality, has Sweden made any moves to help in the Ukrainian efforts?

Romantsova: Most neutrality is an official status of some states like Switzerland, Austria, Finland, and Turkmenistan. It is funny that Turkmenistan has an official neutral status. You must have special voting, call signs, and unique documents at the UN. Switzerland is trying to take it back. Russia said they are an unfriendly country now since membership of NATO. Unless they lose it. In Europe, Austria stays in this status. Now, it is a big, big question. Maybe countries from Asia, Africa, etc., can take a spot. We are not counting this country. So, we are still looking to the West – America, Canada, maybe Germany, but we are not looking to other countries like Brazil, Argentina, or South Africa. These countries are in Africa. We are waiting, growing up, and starting a dialogue with all of these countries. They will not consistently be grown. A lot of them began to shoot during the negotiation. If African countries exist without any government but have an army and, sometimes, more arms than the Czech Republic or Poland, it is a huge question about the biggest problem that we still have. This terroristic act on the city hall near Moscow. It is part of this. They show this exactly when the Russian Federation is trying to concentrate its power and systems in Ukraine. They are open and vulnerable to other problems. Islamistic conflict between Russia and some groups, e.g., Russia supports the Taliban and ISIS. They are trying to kill them in Syria. All this continues. None of this stops because of the Ukrainian situation. I am trying to look at this round from the Ukrainian side. From the Ukrainian side, we need anything to fight and to survive. When we speak about the bigger picture, all of us need to not only look at Europe; we need to look around. It is not only Europe or a Western crisis. It is a crisis of the whole world. 

Jacobsen: What about these human rights violations with regards to joining the Russian army, e.g., Indians being duped – Indian nationals, citizens – into joining the Russian Federation army and then fighting for them? They leave with an injury or something. Now, Indian authorities, at least since early March, are in early talks with Russian officers to deal with these kinds of human rights abuses of Indian nationals tricked into fighting for the Russian army based on false promises.

Romantsova: Look, Xenophobia in the Russian Federation is enormous. I do not think someone from another nation can come to the Russian army and will be enough in contact to be part of the rest. It is not possible. First, most Russians do not know other languages except Russian and rude Russian.

Jacobsen: Rude Russian?

Romantsova: It is from Fifth Element. It is trendy here. That was a phrase from the hero, Bruce Willis. ‘I know only two languages. Rude words and English.’ [Ed. “Whoa, lady, I only speak two languages, English and bad English.”] Every time, they mention some nationality, such as Makhachkala. Makhachkala, they come to the airport and go to the airfield and try to take back from the plane; families, Jewish families, who were from Israel or something like this, or some other place, because it is a Muslim region.

The same situation now, when Crocus City Hall was attacked, these were guys from Turkmenistan. It is a part of the old Soviet Union, a separate country with a broad autocratic regime. Now, these people come to Russia to have a primitive… Whenever Russians have an opportunity to show their xenophobia, they do that. I cannot imagine people with dark skin, with absolutely no English, not the same English where they expect to hear from people. That is not the precise pronunciation that will be respected in the Russian Federation. I cannot even imagine. So, they will be killed, not by Russians, but sent without ammunition or something. They send, send, send people without any support. So, I do not know. 

Jacobsen: On March 9, Pope Francis stated that Ukraine and its allies should, more or less, wave the white flag. Given the size of the Catholic Church worldwide, this comes from a prominent world religious leader. How was that met last month, the comment from the Pope? 

Romantsova: The Pope said something. Ukrainians and their population are usually used to that. 

Jacobsen: It was criticized and met on deaf ears. 

Romantsova: In Ukraine, we have 72 different kinds of churches, including Jewish, old Oriental forms of Christianity like the Copts or Armenian Christian Church, Muslim, Russian, and Buddhist temples. It includes different kinds of Christianity: Baptist churches and old Russian churches. So, Greek and Catholic, it is an organized community. It is focused mainly on the western part of Ukraine. They connect it with the Pope. They first hear what the Pope will say because Ukrainians believe in the Pope of their church. All other people think, “One more politician who says something. What can you expect?” Most people do not make much distinction between the Pope and the president. They know it is in Italy and a separate country, blah-blah-blah. It exists, and people who work for that. My organization’s head needs to meet with the Pope in the following months. The Pope, traditionally, is a figure who can make negotiations. We will be continuing to speak with them because he is still essential. He can say something.

Jacobsen: Not too long ago, Ukrainian forces lost the city of Avdiivka after several months of very, very intense fighting. What has been the social and political impact within the context of the war?

Romantsova: It is so interesting. You say a few months. A few actions cover it. Now, you cannot get the views. All of the social impacts of what happened. First of all, many soldiers commented about Avdiivka. They take it back earlier than in Bakhmut, but it takes two weeks or something like that. That is the effect on the population and its attention now. Two weeks after that, we had another problem. I am sure the family who lost someone there or soldiers who were angry for their combat that way. They organized getting out of there and taking them out of there. For them, that was different news. For the rest of the population, “We had a terrible day on the frontline. What can we do to have a good day on the frontline?” 

Jacobsen: What were the remaining presidential comments about Estonia becoming the next NATO alliance leader? Does this have worse or better political implications vis-a-vis NATO for Ukrainian support? 

Romantsova: It is essential. Does the commentator take us there or not? We have some rules. They do not include new countries with a planned conflict or something like that. Every time we hear about someone, we will feel only one comment. If it is expected, will it be possible for them to take Ukraine tomorrow or not? If a specialist discusses how this person can be helpful or not for Ukraine membership, that’s all. 

Jacobsen: How extensively are prisoners of war being tortured by Russian forces? There are reports of Ukrainian prisoners of war being tortured in Russia. Is there an extent of how far this is going, or is it just general knowledge that there is torture being done to Ukrainian prisoners of war?

Romantsova: It has happened to all prisoners over the last ten years. When we take people back from there, they give testimonies about it. That is not just a torture. The whole scope of imagined horrors, Hollywood horrors, over the last 40 years, they use it, including sexual and gender-based violence. It is a huge, huge, massive variety of tortures. We have testimonies of people who went through that by themselves.

Jacobsen: It is reported that one-third of Russian warships in the Black Sea have been destroyed or disabled. Is this a significant win for the Ukrainian side of the war, or are more substantial wins or points of import for the Ukrainian military and Ukrainians in general more to do with air superiority and artillery now? In other words, are the Navy’s victories not the sort of victories they need?

Romantsova: I cannot specifically comment on the military. Yes, I have friends. Some of my friends are on the frontline. They are mainly at the ordinary level of the army. So, I need insights or a deep understanding of it. People suffered. All of the relatives suffered. People were killed on the frontline. They are fighting. We are still not Russia. They have had enough success. That is all that I know.

Jacobsen: What about other nations that do not have outstanding human rights records supporting the war effort of the Russian Federation? Not merely Iran with drones or North Korea with missiles but significant support from the Chinese government based on intelligence reports.

Romantsova: Most countries or nations are in the Middle East or Central Asia. We do not understand all of this region, as we do not have a profound traditional relationship with them. We speak about Central Asia. It is a former Soviet Union country. That is why we have a connection, but it is not deep. Ukraine has most of its information from intelligence services, whether in diplomacy or trading. You can buy some information from commercials. For example, we buy from Sputnik and put them in space. So, when we speak about what kind of information we need for fighting and whether China, Iran, or India have some technologies to give information for fighting, do they have some support for Russia or some support for Ukraine? It is carefully secured information, where our army takes information. The British intelligence service only wants guys who regularly command something on the frontlines between Ukraine and Russia. It could have happened in other sources. However, for Ukrainian sources, we have many sources from British intelligence services—they publicly have some commanders. So, this war depends on intelligence, not simply intelligence, but the cyber information database. The war information is only taken from cyberspace. For example, where is a power plant in Ukraine? You can try to use an old map from the Soviet Union.

In the same way, you can break this power plant’s system management, which connects with primary sources in cyberspace. Cyberspace information is what you need in this conflict. Many people are involved in cyberspace fighting and cyberwarfare around our Ukrainian-Russian war. China plays a large part in that. I do not know if they will ever speak about that publicly. I do not know if they publicly support Russia, but Chinese hackers participate. I know that.

Jacobsen: The recent attack on Israel by Iran; I am mixing this because Russia uses the drones used by Iran in the Russo-Ukrainian war. There was a significant response from the Israelis and Americans. Reports are that at least 99% of those missiles and drones launched were taken down before impact. So, is there a lesson to be learned from that, given the fact that much of the long-distance being done can be done to Ukraine, whether infrastructure, residential areas, or military targets have to do with missiles and drones?

Romantsova: First, we must understand that Israel is small. Second, I need to find out the rockets used by Iran to make this strike and launch them. As I understand it, it is an excellent example that the USA or other countries have such technology, which can help us. They cover some parts of Ukraine. They may need help to do that for an extensive territory like Ukraine. If we compare Israel and Ukraine, the size difference is significant. So, Israel will always be protected by the USA. It is true. However, we need many negotiations to have the same status to negotiate a lot.

Jacobsen: Do the primary areas for winning significant hunks against the Russian Federation involve cyber operations, cyber warfare and economic warfare? If we look at critical economic indicators within the Russian Federation, things like the society’s size and growth rate in terms of people brought in through immigration or being born there. Russia has been declining for at least two decades or stagnating yearly. By 2050, the estimates are that they will lose ten million people in their total population numbers. So, it is a shrinking population, as with China in the last couple of years…

Romantsova: But you know, Russia has had a demographic crisis before. That is why I told you about xenophobia but at the same time. Russia needs labour from Central Asian countries because Central Asian countries mostly have language, former Soviet Union countries, but Baltic countries are members of the EU. Most know the Russian language but will never come to Russia to be simple workers or work simple jobs. They will go to the EU if they need money. It is the same with Belarus. I am not going to Russia, but to Poland, for example. As you understand now, Ukrainians are in the same situation as Moldova. Georgia and Armenia are location countries. Azerbaijan has more profit and income than Russia, so they are not going to Russia to have money through simple work or labour. Georgians and Armenians are small, two small countries.

All of them have a problem with Russia. So, only Central Asia, Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, Kazakhstan, Turkmenistan, all of those countries. Now, more and more, as big as Kazakhstan, they are much more speaking about anti-colonialism directions because they accept colonialism (former). The colonial politics of the Russian Federation, so only Uzbekistan, Kyrgyzstan, etc., are countries with small populations. Now, no one likes them – the Russian Federation – because of Crocus City Center. That was the first season in these countries who returned to countries – these Central Asian countries – more than they left them. That means that the Russian Federation lost its labourers from Central Asia.

I think at the end of the year. They will lose even more. They are not like before, giving citizenship to the labourers in Central Asia. Most of them prefer to have citizenship of the Russian Federation, but they do not provide them. They like to use them like simple, cheap labourers, but not a part of politicians and the electorate. It is a difficult situation. Putin is trying to solve this through Ukrainian children. That is one of the reasons why they steal or kidnap them. It is the same if we speak about the Ukrainian population. One of my dreams of Putin is to join the territory of Ukraine tak, take all of this, repeal Ukrainians into the Russian population and solve the demographic crisis like this. However, one of the ways they are trying to control the matrimonial function of women. They are trying to put the women or motivate the women to have more children. One of the ideas is a bill in parliament that states that women can have higher education if they do not have two children. 

Jacobsen: So, if they have higher education, they cannot. 

Romantsova: It is just a bill. It is not a law now. They can, like all previous stupid bills, accept. It can be a backstep. Women in the Russian Federation, you must have two children before deciding to take higher education at university. It is against the classical, traditional Soviet Union idea that everyone should have higher education. Most of the populations of the former Soviet Union countries have higher education. In Ukraine, 80% of people have higher education. It is the usual and traditional period of your life. It does not mean you are choosing to go to university or not. You are going to university, or you – we call them – have a budget place where the State pays. Second, your parents collect the money and try to give it to you. For example, it is less expensive here in Ukraine than in the USA. It is traditional for most people here to have a higher education in some way. So, that is turning back from the evolution of the Soviet Union time.

Jacobsen: There are also statements about women having eight or more children or being urged to have eight or more children by Russian Federation leadership. At the same time, they are really pushing in the media and bills, not laws, so far, but also restricting the psychology of women’s freedom through the repeal of physical protections for women. If a woman feels unsafe in the home, she will not feel safe to go out to do things freely: to get an education, to get a job, to have different and varied friends, and so on. Things like the repeal of the domestic violence protection law so that legally, you can, as a husband, beat your wife in Russia. That is a form of psychological warfare, too, not just a non-penalization of a negative behaviour. That sort of thing. It is along the lines of what you are saying as well. Only if you have children can you go and have children, where it is part, as you mentioned earlier, of what was a Soviet idea at the time of having higher education.

Romantsova: The Soviet idea was different at different times. It was 17 years. There was absolute equality between men and women initially, even in the understanding. They were trying to break the family’s knowledge. It is not necessary to have a family to have some sexual relationship or to have children. However, after all the control of the State, they understood that having a family is much more comfortable for control. So, they started to speak, “Yes, sure, women have equal rights here. In the Soviet Union, they are like men.” Society waiting, “Yes, you have a job, but you have a ‘second job.’” At home, you take care of the children. Soviet women were with children. Women who care about the house and the deficit. It is a result of a centralized economy, a centralized planning economy. Women were mainly responsible for taking stock, finding, and buying things. Loads of people do not have the opportunity to use money, and those who do not use it. Women were responsible for home management, and they had work. They have a traditional need to have an education. All of this is built on a new glass ceiling for women. Some women are ministers in history or chiefs at big industrial companies. But mostly, you will not find these names in the history. That was not usual. That was not normal because women usually mainly cared about their families. So, education for women. That was a must-have. So, now, Russia wants to change. Russia changed the mental map of regular societal roles in the Russian Federation. They decriminalized home violence. They take back all the other areas of your life, except family, which you can control. You can’t control your business, what kind of political media comes. You can’t control whether you will have war or not. You can control one: Your family, if you are a man. If you are a woman, you need to find a man because all other ways to be protected will not help. So, inside the family, the man controls; it comes to a system of breeding families until the end of the 19th century when only men had a relationship with the State. Women always have any relationship with the State only through the man. Only your husband or your brother or father is responsible for your status. They determine your status. It is something like this. It is much easier to control men who only have power inside the family, so young control the family. So, the man controls the wife and children through this process. It is one of the ways they do this, as well as religion. They support spreading this Russian Orthodox ideology. But in this way, they are falling. They fall because statistics show fewer and fewer young people in the Russian Federation attend church. They may be believers but not members of the church. 

Jacobsen: They are following in the line, ironically, of most of the Western world, which is a stark decline in attendance and belief in organized religion, particularly Christianity. 

Romantsova: What happened with Russia is not a surprise, but a big problem for them; it is Islamization. In this situation, Islam gives more answers than Christianity. 

Jacobsen: How so?

Romantsova: Islam talks about the Islamic State. Any state is foul. It needs to be corrected. It’s because they need to recognize national or political management. In Muslim ideology, all the rights of believers are with one nation, Summa. All of these national countries or nations are false. It is temporary. We will all be in one Islamic world. So, it is one of the strong ideologies if you don’t like a state. Putin created a state that is a system that can be unlikeable in one moment. If people do not have an average education, Islam proposes a sound system and understanding why Putin is wrong and all states are a bad idea. Allah did not create the states. So, that is all false. It is happening, first of all, in the jails. Before, in the Russian Federation, imagine 1 million people in prisons; it is a lot. Before, there were black and red jails; we call them zona. It is a secured zone, a jail. Black jails exist. The system of law calls them “person who steals something.”

People who steal: Thieves. It was like a vast system of thieves during the Soviet era who created their law system. That’s romanticized. This parallel reality exists in the jails. These are huge complexes that thieves control. They have their law, economic system, and all of this. It is not a mafia. It is a law. It is not one organization but a system of law. They call them “thieves of the law.” Part of this reality was, again, the Soviet Union system. For example, Greek Catholic believers or a national movement against the Soviet Union. They are the same as Putin in jail. They start to be part of this system. It is fierce. They are criminals. They control part of these jails. Other parts of jails were controlled. During the Soviet Union, political cases and prisoners were put in red jails. Because police officers can prevent this, there are only two kinds of prisons now. Now, the third part of the jails is green, not black or red. Green means Islamic. This means that this is a closed society. It works by Islamic laws. It works through the law of crime. That is new. Before, it did not exist at all in the territory of former Soviet countries.

Jacobsen: It is points at interviews like this where I enjoy them because I have covered such a broad range of subject matter in a little over a decade.

Romantsova: [Laughing]. 

Jacobsen: Because I put in a lot of time. I have interviewed a lot of members of the ex-Muslim community. There is a whole host of them. A lot of the online secular community, especially, is one place in which they can formally organize, communicate, share arguments, share stories, help others who are getting out of more cases and help them leave religion when religion has taken an extreme form. Not as extreme as Salafi Wahhabi interpretations from Saudi Arabia, but certainly, family and community and national contexts where it is dangerous for them. So, you’re talking about the thing in which they find many problems. Not they disagree with you; they agree with you because they see a threat of politicized religion in the way that a lot of people would see politicized Christianity as an issue in North America or in Russia, particularly in the United States and particularly in the Russian Federation. In the context of the Russian Federation, do you think that the xenophobia that you mentioned at the start has some ties to Islamist tendencies in the Russian Federation and concerns of politicized religion, providing some challenge to the leadership in the country? Is this enough of a challenge in the Russian Federation or more of a substantial nuisance to the leadership?

Romantsova: If Russia exists in Chechnya and a few other regions and a few more are more Islamic, Chechnya is more important because Kadyrov showed that the Islamic region in the Russian Federation could be in power. We do not know why. I think we know why, but Putin absolutely did not react as if there was any problem with Kadyrov, Chechnya’s leader. It is not police, but special forces. He and his troops terroristically controlled Chechnya. They showed Russia that you can be absolutely Islamic and officially accepted. It is the same situation as the Taliban from Afghanistan. Putin officially meets with them. I think Putin showed that if you organize like an Islamic movement. You can even be strong enough that Putin accepts you as part of the dialogue. 

Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Oleksandra.

Romantsova: 

Further Internal Resources (Chronological, yyyy/mm/dd):

Humanist

Humanists International, Russian Federation, Ukraine, and the United Nations (2024/01/08)

Personal

The Long Happenstance of Iceland and Copenhagen (2023/12/09)

Romanian

Remus Cernea on Independent War Correspondence in Ukraine (2023/08/25)

Zaporizhzhia Field Interview With Remus Cernea (2024/02/21)

War and Destruction With Remus Cernea (2024/02/22)

Remus Cornea on Ukraine in Early 2024 (2024/04/29)

Ukrainian

Ms. Oleksandra Romantsova on Ukraine and Putin (2023/09/01)

Oleksandra Romantsova on Prigozhin and Amnesty International (2023/12/03)

Dr. Roman Nekoliak on International Human Rights and Ukraine (2023/12/23)

Sorina Kiev: Being a Restauranteur During Russo-Ukrainian War (2024/01/27)

World Wars, Human Rights & Humanitarian Law w/ Roman Nekoliak (2024/03/07)

Oleksandra Romantsova: Financing Regional Defense in War (2024/03/11)

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License. Based on a work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright

© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their independent purposes.