Dr. Ramani Durvasula on Authenticity and No Contact

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/09/26

*Transcript edited for readability.*

*Link to video interview here.*

Dr. Ramani Durvasula is a licensed clinical psychologist in Los Angeles, CA, Professor Emerita of Psychology at California State University, Los Angeles, and the Founder and CEO of LUNA Education, Training & Consulting. She is an author of several books including Should I Stay or Should I Go: Surviving A Relationship with a Narcissist, and “Don’t You Know Who I Am?”: How to Stay Sane in an Era of Narcissism, Entitlement, and Incivility. The focus of Dr. Durvasula’s clinical, academic and consultative work is the etiology and impact of narcissism and high-conflict, entitled, antagonistic personality styles on human relationships, mental health, and societal expectations. Her work has been featured at SXSW, TEDx, Red Table Talk, the Today Show, and Investigation Discovery. You can also find her on YouTube where she has accumulated millions of views on her videos discussing narcissism on her successful channel, and on social media @DoctorRamani. Now she will be adding the role of host to her resume as she launches her new podcast, Navigating Narcissism with Dr. Ramani, a show that focuses on narcissism and its impact on relationships.

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Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Okay, so today we are here with Dr. Ramani Durvasula. So we’re going to talk about a few things, more in a constructive frame, which I think is important because with the work that you do and have specialized in–there’s a lot of darker facets of it, which can be a bummer. So in terms of things that might be considered, say, a counter to this, as you’ve presented in some of your videos, which would be in one word, authenticity. How do we present ourselves in our lives in terms of just living out more authentically?

Dr. Ramani Durvasula: So there’s lots of different ways to live more authentically. I mean, you’ve got to remember, this is an intra-psychic process first, right? So we have to have plumbed the depths of ourselves to figure out who we are, what we’re about, our values, again, connecting into really what we’re about. How do we show up as more authentic? It’s not being performative. It’s touching back in with ego versus us genuinely wanting to be a part of the conversation.

It is also, I think in many ways, one thing that thwarts authenticity in a social situation is anxiety, right? So the more anxious we become, in some ways, the more distance we get from our authentic selves. In fact, Carl Rogers would argue that anxiety is a symptom of not being able to live in our authentic self, right? So that’s really what anxiety is. And so when we are anxious, and that could be created because we feel we’re being evaluated, because we might place certain kinds of importance on the people we’re talking to, we’re trying to impress the people, or we somehow might feel judged, or whatever the reason is, the social milieu is bringing up anxiety. Those are often times we won’t be authentic.

And whatever that looks like is going to vary. Like I said, in some cases, it might be that we’re performative. In some cases, we’re talking more about what we do rather than who we are. And I think that difference of talking about who we are rather than what we do, which is why you’ll see one of the kind of experiments that’s often floated in certain organizations, or like when you’re getting to know a new group, is in the first six hours, no one’s allowed to talk about what they do for a living. You just have to talk; you have to be in the moment, and so that kind of thing will lend itself to authenticity.

The less we fall into what we do for a living, or our titles, or any of that, and the more we stay present in a given moment, how we’re feeling, or commenting on the avocado, or  I don’t care for cilantro,” or whatever it may be, we actually do show up more authentically. And those are some of the things we can do to show up authentically. I also think that– and this is probably going to be an unpopular opinion–is honoring, if we feel a discomfort, someone brings out a discomfort in us, whatever it may be, it may be because they’re behaving badly, it may be because they are antagonistic, or dominating the conversation. It could be that they represent something that we still haven’t fully worked through.

I often tell people it’s okay at those times if you feel like you don’t have to force yourself to participate, because I think a lot of authenticity, again, goes back to that anxiety, forcing ourselves to interact with people whose conduct is making us uncomfortable. And so, I think all of those things can contribute to it, but, really, it’s that alignment of focusing more on the moment, and talking about who we are, what we stand for, versus what we do.

Jacobsen: And this getting in touch with being more genuine and in the moment.

Durvasula: Yes, it’s more genuine in the moment.

Jacobsen: When someone is doing this and hasn’t been doing as fully as they could, and doesn’t have any formal diagnosis of a problem, but instead shows patterns of people-pleasing or living slightly into a false self, what might be some potential consequences, socially or some of their professional life, if they begin living more authentically over time, more in touch with their true self–so to speak?

Durvasula: As a person starts living authentically over time, I don’t think everyone is fully prepared for all the consequences. In some ways, people will experience a greater sense of inner peace. They’ll feel more settled, more in tune with their bodies, and they may dread certain interactions less, or have fewer of them altogether. As a person becomes more authentic, I actually think they’re going to lose people. Their social circle will narrow, and they’ll find themselves with more time on their hands, because they’ll start saying, “No, that doesn’t feel authentic.”

They may even end up making less money, as they might turn down opportunities that aren’t aligned with their sense of self, with their value system, with their meaning and purpose. I always say, “If you’re really on this quest for authenticity, everything is about to get a whole hell of a lot smaller outside of you, and a whole hell of a lot bigger inside of you.”

Jacobsen: What are the consequences in that intra-psychic realm, in what we would term “mental health”?

Durvasula: Well, again, if you look at a humanistic, Rogerian conception of mental health, humanists didn’t really talk about “mental illness.” There was no such thing. We focused on how we are buffeted by the conditions placed on us by the world. Those disconnects of having to please the demands of the world, is what were causing this anxiety in us. Basically, it’s us being commanded to be something other than what we truly are in order to be accepted by the world.

That would be the closest definition of mental illness a humanist would ever float. They wouldn’t view a person as “mentally ill”. This is why I’ve always adhered to a humanistic framework. It is the conditions of the world around them. If a person is able to work more towards that authenticity, you’re asking if they can live more authentically, where that will take them. I think you will see an abating of anxiety. You will see a mental clarity. 

It will be balanced. I have gotten some pushback from undergraduate and graduate students for 22 years. “Does being authentic mean you just go into a room and say whatever you want?” 

I said, “No, an authentic person can still read a room. But after reading the room and recognizing, ‘I need to be careful about what I say here.” They may also make the assessment, ‘I don’t know how much longer I want to stay in this room,’ or, ‘I may not come into a room like this again,’” right? An authentic person is not an unhinged person. They’re a very clear person. The best way I can describe it, and I’m drawing this from embodied trauma work, is that they feel more in their bodies—they feel more in alignment with themselves.

I think you will see a greater sense of well-being, probably a greater sense of expressed gratitude. You might see higher happiness scores. You’re definitely going to see lower anxiety. You’ll see a lower ego, however that gets quantified. There’s going to be less of that need to prove oneself. In fact, you’re probably going to see far, far less antagonism, because an authentic person doesn’t need to get into an argument with someone. “I know who I am. I know what I am about.” If someone has a different opinion, they can coexist with that opinion and not feel driven by ego to convince the other person otherwise. That’s a pretty damn peaceful way to live.

Jacobsen: I’ll share something from my own experience. I have this in print. I grew up in an alcoholic home, in a divorced family. I cut contact about nine years about with my father after receiving some messages and dealing with some family events that required the police. I was kicked out of the house around age 14. When I came back, basically, families, understandably, distanced themselves from that type of home–so to speak.

When I came back, age 14 after a couple months of being kicked out,, in the small town where I grew up in, I became friends with some near-retired or retired people at a small, little restaurant called Veggie Bob’s with the number 604-888-1223. I recall something you were saying, which was noteworthy, in some of your audiovisual presentations about people you have noticed who are authentic, typically, are older, something around 50.

Durvasula: I have to say: I haven’t met many people much south of 50 who are truly authentic. But I’ve seen quite a few who become more authentic as they get older.

Jacobsen: Those individuals I mentioned would get together once a week or so to have a little discussion group at this restaurant, which was also a grocery store. At some point, they called it Veggie Bob’s Growcery Café, but “Gro-” was spelled G-R-O-W. They invited me, as a young person—14, 15, 16—to take part, listen, and make a few comments, and so on. That was very helpful for me at that point in my life, to see people who were quite comfortable in their skin because, frankly, they didn’t have a lot of time left.

Also, they had lived their lives. They were in a small town where people generally keep each other in check because everyone knows everyone. It’s hard to tell big lies or to be, at least, too grandiose. That’s opining, but I’ll leave it at that. So, when you’re seeing older people who tend to be more authentic, why?

Durvasula: I think a couple of things. Not all older people are authentic, right? Sadly, authenticity remains a relatively rare quality in our world. In a way, the system is set up to make it difficult, right? The idea of a small town might would imply farther from an urban center, and all of the pressures and demands that come from it. I don’t think a small town necessarily facilitates authenticity.

There’s also the performative nature of some places. This isn’t a complete diss on Capitalism, though some of it is. Capitalism requires us to morph into something else. We are constantly being told that something is wrong with us, but there’s always a product we can buy to “fix” ourselves. That mindset can definitely be a thief authenticity.

As people get older, first of all, you have more data. You know how these stories end. You know the story doesn’t go forever. I think there’s probably more of a willingness to self-reflect on mistakes one has made. It’s time served, but time served doesn’t work for everyone–that accumulation. 

The “carrots and sticks” have been removed, right? By older age, a person has had children, a career, a picket fence if that is what they choose, have owned homes or not owned homes, gone through education. All of the “carrots and sticks” are removed. So, at that point, you really are living with whatever you have made. Some people may continue working until later in life. Some may be retired. It is choices not from a social performative metric. “You must get married. You must have a child. You must own a home. You must have a certain type of career. You must have this much money in the bank.” This fritters away. 

When those environmental demands lift, it becomes easier for authenticity to flow. What makes authenticity tough is the tension between the true self and what the world demands. Additionally, we are going to see a cohort effect with older people, at least until now, and probably for the next 10 years, maybe not even that much, are not as influenced by social media. So, they are not being as performative of “I have to keep up with my friend who is doing this.” Some older people embrace it. By and large, it will not be a normative tool of social engagement. They may not feel the social press of “What do you mean my friend can run two laps around the track at the local high school, but I can only do one?” Maybe, they go and see the person. But you don’t have this big press, which is one more carrot-and-stick dynamic that starts to fade as people age. 

You don’t live with that template and framework. This is why people don’t always study what they want in higher education, or why they don’t pursue careers that they value. It’s why they enter marriages they didn’t truly want in the first place, or why they don’t feel comfortable coming out about sexuality or gender. All of these are responses to social pressure, right? 

As these pressures are lifted, you don’t have the same fight. All those other societal pressures steal the authenticity.  The other pressure to authenticity is our need for belonging. These two don’t fit well together. Because the people we wish to belong to, may be for example, a family of origin, the people who reside in the region we live in, may be a cultural group. In order to belong to the group, authenticity is what needs to be traded out. 

You gave the example of going no contact. That’s not an easy thing to do. But it has saved many people’s lives. Many people have said that going no contact from a harmful system of any kind—whether it’s a former partner, in-laws, family of origin, or even people you worked with—can be what lifts and finally allows their authenticity to flow. They no longer have to make excuses for themselves or be constantly shut down.

I don’t care how damn authentic you are. If you are in a system that dismantles or creates chaos in their life, it’s going to test them. The capacity to step away from such a system is not easy. On top of that, society very harshly judges people who make the choice. Nobody wakes up one morning and says, “We had an argument. I’m going no contact.” No contact is a massive iceberg. That iceberg is enormous under the water. 

By the time someone decides to go no contact—not from a petulant or punitive place, but from a place of “this isn’t good for me”—they’ve already suffered and tried countless ways to make it work. Eventually, they realize, “No more.” It’s often someone like me who comes in and says, “This pattern is never going to change, so you can decide how many more years you want to pay into this.” I let them know that nothing will change, and they can make their decisions accordingly.

All of those factors are thieves of authenticity. If a person becomes authentic, the toxic systems want often nothing to do with them either. Those systems will keep trying to break them, but if the authentic person stands their ground, the system may eventually distance itself. I always liken it to looking at Medusa—they’ll turn to stone.

It gets tricky. In older people, the aspirational piece often shifts. They start doing things out of genuine interest, no longer trying to achieve proverbial tenure, make partner, get notches on the belt. They think, “I enjoy this.” By that age, people have often honed their skills and know what they’re good at. They also know what they’re not good at, and they stay in the areas they enjoy. I think these things just come with time.

Honestly, I have yet to meet a person under 30 who is authentic. I’ve never met that person.

Jacobsen: You touched a little on the aspect of this in ‘cultural groups.’ If you have sexual or gender identity, or comes from a particular ethnic and cultural group, or the way people are gendered depending on the society, how do those pressures, as younger age especially, punish people from expressing their genuine interests, emotions, and intellectual curiosities?

Durvasula: Oh, they punish them horribly. If we think about queer people throughout history, for the longest time, they had to remain silent. They couldn’t live in a way that aligned with their gender identity, nor could they publicly express love and affection for somebody they wanted to–talk about losing authenticity. It’s a tremendous tragedy.

This often resulted in mental health fallout, even suicidality, because it was too dangerous to live authentically. Had they done so, they could have been arrested, put in prison, or beaten up. And in many parts of the world, this reality still exists. The pressures weren’t limited to queer individuals. People couldn’t marry someone of a different religion, faith, or race—those things were against the law on top of it. So, it’s only in recent memory, at least in some countries; there has been a shift. People have gained the ability to move through the world as their true selves.

We used to–literally–codify in law that people could not be authentic. You had to be what society demanded of you, or you would face punishment. Religious systems reinforced this too: “If you did this, or have sex now, or you do that, then you’re going to hell.” Essentially, “Don’t be your.”

When we look at the myriad punitive structures that have been in place, and the myriad discriminatory laws that still exist in some places, people are literally forbidden by law from being authentic. That’s my point. When that’s te case, there’s real danger—a person could be arrested, disappear, or something like that. It is another pressure. Even if those laws change, I believe there’s still an intergenerational transmission of fear of coming out. Someone might think, “If I come out, I’ll lose my family.” We’re back to that need for belonging.

People often feel like they’re forced to make impossible choices. “I am going to have to distance myself from family.” It might sound simple on paper, but it’s incredibly difficult in practice. These kinds of societal pressures are immense barriers to authenticity.

Artists have often struggled with this too, being told their work isn’t a legitimate way to seek out a living. Yet many artists achieve authenticity because they chose to pursue their passion, even though it was considered “off track” of what was considered productive, money-making work.  

They would almost be forced into that position or have to give up on that dream. That social pull is a palpable and real pressure. The more marginalized someone is in society—whether by race, gender, religion, or social class—the more they have to bend to the will of what the society wants of them to stay safe. The more marginalized in society, then the barriers authenticity are even greater because showing up authentically can lead to being shutdown or worse.

Jacobsen: Be mindful of time. Last question: If someone has developed, at least, a modest skill in authenticity and going no contact, what will happen with the narcissists in their life–to make this, at least, topical?

Durvasula: Listen, authenticity is not a destination; it’s daily work, and it’s uncomfortable. I really want to put a fine point on that. While authenticity can create a sense of peace and allay anxiety in you, it also means that every day can be uncomfortable because the rest of the world hasn’t caught on. You’re often making choices that people view sideways or even feel inconvenienced by. You’re not going with the flow, and you’re seen as that difficult, dissenting voice.

So, in a way, authentic people often have more difficult lives if they are fully leaning into their authenticity. Narcissistic people want nothing to do with authentic people. They will gaslight them, shame them, make fun of them, and manipulate them.

If you are truly authentic and doing that work every day, the narcissistic person in your life will eventually lose interest or uninterested. Ultimately, narcissists seek supply in relationships. If you’re authentic, you stop being a source of supply. For example, if they try to gaslight you, yell at you, or humiliate you, and you just look at them as though they’re a strange bug with three heads that walked into your living room, without engaging or being scared. They won’t take well to that. Eventually, they’ll write you off, say disparaging things, but they will often disengage—which is a gift, an absolute gift.

So, no contact–when it is not a petulant and acting out, narcissists often use it to punish others. I am talking about someone who says, “This is not healthy. I cannot interact in this system. This is not good for me, my mental health. It is not safe. I am not doing it anymore.” When that happens, it is often a decision where there is an authentic tailwind on that. Which is saying, “This is not good for you.” 

Authenticity is a process, and that’s likely why we tend to embrace it more as we age. It requires us to slowly assess the structures around us, having the willingness and openness of mind to dismantle some of this, and realize “this is nonsense, this is silly, this is ridiculous, and this isn’t who I am.” Maybe, get more comfortable with the idea of not belonging, the sense of “I will find my community.” Maybe, it will be very small.  

When you take away all those social strictures, narcissists lose a lot of their power. It’s like watching Superman with kryptonite—they can no longer do anything fancy. In that sense, authenticity becomes both an antidote to narcissism, but after someone has been through and harmed by narcissistic relationships. It is where we’re trying to get them. It isn’t easy after a toxic relationship because you have been told that who you are is nothing. You are selfish if you want to be you. Authenticity is treated as you being selfish.  

When the whole family systems can also reinforce this idea that being yourself is selfish, they may label you as “weird” or the “crackpot cousin.” If a person is truly authentic person, they will think, “This is a nieces wedding who I adore.” Afterwards, “I am not doing that again.” The authentic person can have that critical thinking to say, “This niece matters to me and my presence at this event matters to my niece. The human being I am wants to be there for her because I have cared for her.” Recognizing that this will be hard on them, maybe, the authentic person will opt to drive the three hours home at the end of the event. They will show up. 

Authenticity is not a line in the sand. That’s where authenticity really speaks to where critical thinking comes into play and “how do I honor yourself without destroying yourself.” In a narcissistic relationship, that is as razor’s edge as a razor’s edge gets.

Jacobsen: Dr. Durvasula, thank you very much for your time today.

Durvasula: Thank you so much for having me.

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