Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/08
Gravitational lensing can be read as an informational process: gravity reshapes photon trajectories, encoding maps of mass and curvature into observable distortions, magnifications, and time delays. On galactic and cluster scales, lenses reveal dark matter distributions; on cosmic scales, cumulative lensing and expansion geometry alter apparent sizes and brightnesses across look-back time. Compact objects—black holes, neutron stars, brown dwarfs—add microlensing noise that, in aggregate, conveys counts of nonluminous matter, though single remnants rarely dominate. Observing a younger, smaller universe at greater distances that still spans our sky reflects both curvature and expansion history. In short, warped light is measured information.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Describe to me in detail how gravitational lensing can be seen—on a cosmological scale—as an informational process, particularly in the ways photons are warped so distinctly. How does that fit into the larger picture?
Rick Rosner: I have seen postulates that much of the dark matter may actually be collapsed matter—stars that have burned out and collapsed into neutron stars or even denser remnants. You also have supermassive black holes at the centers of galaxies. Moreover, there are brown dwarfs, although I am not sure they are compact enough to contribute significantly to gravitational lensing.
Under that view, we should see more lensing than the standard Big Bang model predicts. On the other hand, an individual neutron star does not create a massive lensing footprint. If it is in another galaxy, it is not detectable from here—it is simply too small. I have not read enough about what can be seen at those distances.
However, the entire universe itself is lensed by the overall curvature of space-time. We are used to imagining “flat” three-dimensional space. When you look one mile away, everything one mile away forms a sphere with you at the center and a radius of one mile. At two miles, it is a larger sphere, and the surface area you see increases with the square of the distance.
Now, scale that to billions of light-years. At one billion or two billion light-years away, what you are looking at should appear enlarged. In a Big Bang universe, when you observe something two billion light-years away, you’re seeing it as it was two billion years earlier—two billion fewer years of expansion.
So you’re not looking at a sphere that increases at the standard rate. You’re looking at a sphere that’s slightly shrunk compared to the near space around you. But it still occupies the full 360 degrees of your vision. So it appears enlarged.
The objects you’re seeing are part of a smaller version of the universe, because that region hasn’t expanded as much as our local region. But it still surrounds you. The farther back you look, the more this effect increases, until you’re looking at a tiny, early universe that still occupies your whole field of view in every direction.
So this shrunken universe should still appear large. Imagine the big sphere in Las Vegas.
Picture yourself standing inside it, at the center, looking at images projected at different distances. First, they show youthings ten feet away—a living room or bedroom, with walls all around. Then they show you a field, where everything is a hundred feet away, with trees in the distance. Then a thousand feet away—buildings.
A building a hundred feet tall, at that distance, might occupy the exact angle of vision as a chest of drawers did in the first room. Then, when you look all the way back to about a million years after the Big Bang, you’d see a soupy, nebulous universe. But it would still fill your entire 360-degree field of view.
So, for it to occupy your whole field, things would appear enlarged. I don’t know—I haven’t thought through every detail. It might be an effect of lensing, but I’d need to think more about whether that’s accurate or just me talking out of turn.
Still, I expect more small-scale lenses. IC predicts vast numbers of neutron stars and “blackish holes” orbiting farther from galactic centers than the luminous stars. But can we see them? I don’t know.
I don’t know how close a star-sized black hole would need to be for us to detect lensing around it. I assume that the lensing astronomers see across the universe comes from galaxy-scale objects, not individual star remnants. But I’m not sure.
So, the overall idea—looking back into deep time—is that lensing, through gravitation, contributes to the curvature of the universe. And since nothing has a trajectory outside the universe, you could argue that light that has travelled for 14 billion years has been bent along the way by that curvature.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/07
In this interview, Scott Douglas Jacobsen speaks with Rick Rosner about the recent surge in gravitational lensing discoveries and their implications for cosmology. Rosner explains how modern instruments are producing vast amounts of data, sometimes straining existing theoretical frameworks. He outlines the history of the Big Bang model, from Hubble’s redshift law to the cosmic microwave background, and its ongoing refinement through inflation and the ΛCDM model. Reflecting on confirmation bias, Rosner considers how his own information-centric perspective shapes his interpretations. The discussion underscores both the resilience of the Big Bang framework and the open questions driving contemporary astrophysics.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Rick, you sent you an article reporting on the recent discoveries of gravitational lensing. I want to begin with a question about that. What is the central finding? The article describes a large amount of gravitational lensing being detected, but it does not clarify whether this amount is consistent with the Big Bang model. Increasingly, it seems that many findings no longer align neatly with the traditional Big Bang framework.
Rick Rosner: Our telescopes and other instruments are improving quickly, producing so much data that theory struggles to keep up. The Big Bang was an early framework. About a century ago we confirmed that there are other galaxies—Hubble’s work in the 1920s—and that the farther away a galaxy is, the greater its redshift (Hubble–Lemaître law, 1929). The modern Big Bang model builds on solutions to Einstein’s general relativity (Friedmann and Lemaître in the 1920s).
It became the leading explanation after the discovery of the cosmic microwave background radiation by Penzias and Wilson at Bell Labs in 1964–1965. That radiation does not come from the “earliest moment” but from about 380,000 years after the Big Bang, when the universe cooled enough for atoms to form and light to travel freely. Subsequent missions—COBE (1992), WMAP (2003), and Planck (2013/2018)—measured its spectrum and tiny temperature variations, strongly supporting the Big Bang framework.
With new data, not everything fits neatly. Inflation, proposed around 1980–1981, solved several issues (horizon, flatness, and relic problems), but open questions remain. Still, the ΛCDM (Lambda–Cold Dark Matter) model—the current standard Big Bang cosmology—continues to match a wide range of observations, including the cosmic microwave background, large-scale structure, baryon acoustic oscillations, supernova distances, and many gravitational-lensing results.
Maybe I am wrong; I do not know.
Jacobsen: You have been reading and reflecting on this material for more than thirty years from an information-structure perspective. Are you vulnerable to the same confirmation biases as others? When you encounter evidence that appears to challenge the Big Bang, do you interpret it differently because of your theoretical commitments?
Rosner: Sure, so yes.
Let me add something. The Big Bang Theory was the inevitable first large-scale cosmological theory, once certain observations were made. Suppose there are many alien civilizations that reach a stage similar to ours. In nine out of ten cases—perhaps even higher—the first widely accepted theory they would form, once they discovered cosmic redshift and the existence of countless galaxies, would be something like the Big Bang.
Around 1900, astronomers thought the universe was just the stars within our own system. By the 1920s, with Hubble’s work, they realized those “nebulae” were separate galaxies. Before then, the term galaxy wasn’t widely used; astronomers sometimes referred to them as “island universes.” Humanity went from thinking there was one galaxy to understanding there are on the order of 100 billion galaxies, each with about 100 billion stars. That was a radical change in perspective. Given the available evidence, the Big Bang became the natural conclusion.
Now, regarding confirmation bias: I have my own analogy between human information processing and the universe’s information processing. That parallel may be strong, or it may be weak, but not nonexistent. Even a weak parallel challenges the traditional Big Bang picture. If the universe is an information processor, then you would expect temporal homogeneity—that it should appear roughly uniform across very long stretches of time, billions of years into the past or future.
That said, I recognize my bias. I look for articles that seem to support my IC (information-centric) view, at least in my interpretation. But my physics skills are limited. Ideally, I would be in a building with physicists and cosmologists, tossing around ideas, running the math, and testing them with code and data. Instead, I am just one person collecting anomalies from articles and online discussions. I do not even read the journals directly.
I do not subscribe to any physics journals. For me to see something, it has to come through a science writer who explains physics for the general public. They read the journals, then translate the content into periodicals or websites. There are probably very rigorous mathematical analyses of how much gold should be produced in supernovae in a Big Bang universe, along with gold created when two neutron stars merge. (Black hole collisions, by contrast, do not produce heavy elements because they swallow material rather than eject it, though some debris may be flung away in certain scenarios.)
Astrophysicists have certainly run these calculations and compared them with observational evidence, such as the abundance of gold and other heavy elements detected through stellar spectral lines. But I never see that side of things. What I encounter is a 450-word article on some website claiming that the universe may contain more gold than the Big Bang model predicts—without showing a single equation.
There is a principle in popular science writing about avoiding math. Stephen Hawking’s A Brief History of Time included just one equation—E = mc². According to the story, Hawking wanted to add more, but his publisher warned him that each equation would cut sales in half. Even with only one, the book sold millions, though it is often described as the least-read bestseller of all time. It is under 200 pages, but many people bought it with good intentions and then found it too challenging.
The material I read never contains equations. But the journal articles behind them likely contain dozens, with integrals, Hamiltonians, and other advanced symbols I never learned—or long ago forgot. I am just an amateur. I am not on the level of the retired shop teacher in Florida who claims to have disproved Einstein, but I am also not working in Duane Physics, the tower at the University of Colorado where George Gamow once worked. (Gamow died in 1968; Duane Physics was completed in 1972, so he never worked there.)
The tower itself has a poor reputation. It is an ugly building from the 1970s, with narrow hallways and cramped offices. I imagine that frustrates the physicists who work there because it limits casual interaction. Collaboration probably happens elsewhere, in spaces with whiteboards and room to actually exchange ideas.
I never get to just walk up to physicists and ask, “What’s going on? What’s shakalaking?”
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/05
In this dialogue, Scott Douglas Jacobsen and Rick Rosner explore the nature of organisms as products of evolution and information-processing systems. Jacobsen frames organisms as dynamic mathematical objects shaped by natural laws and mathematics, raising questions about higher purposes. Rosner highlights that many microorganisms, even without brains, display behaviours through tropisms and adaptive responses. Organisms survive by building internal models of their environment, predicting outcomes, and adjusting behaviour. They process sensory input through contextual frameworks that give information meaning. Rosner emphasizes evolutionary traits, the seven biological life processes, and the negentropic quality of life that maintains order in the face of entropy.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I often characterize people as material objects, but in a more generalized sense—as naturalistic objects. We have natural laws, including the laws of physics and the laws of nature. These generalize into abstract systems, such as mathematics and its descriptions. So I think of organisms as dynamic mathematical objects. Where does an organism fit informationally in the universe? Higher purposes? No higher purposes? Only our own purposes? No purposes at all? How does all of that fit together?
Rick Rosner: Organisms with brains raise one category of questions, but many organisms don’t have brains. Plants don’t. Single-celled organisms don’t. There are plenty of organisms that don’t think, but still display behaviours. When an organism has responses that don’t involve thought, they’re called tropisms, right?
Jacobsen: Sure. Whether an organism can think or not, it can still change its behaviour toward the world in ways that increase its chances of survival.
Rosner: I guess you could say natural organisms, as products of evolution, generally want to survive. In the future, we’ll have artificial organisms that are engineered not to prioritize survival necessarily.
But in general, there’s a tendency for things to want to persist. One of the most effective ways organisms avoid being killed is by developing an internal model of the world around them and using that model to predict what will happen moment to moment—so they can adjust their behaviour to minimize risk and maximize benefit.
As such, organisms are information-processing systems. They have a framework for the information they receive via their senses and by thinking about what they’ve received. For something to be “information,” it must be relevant to the organism. There’s a framework in the organism’s thinking that makes input into information—it provides the context that allows raw sensory input to become meaningful.
By analogy, any information-processing organism provides its own context that turns input into information.
As I’ve been saying recently, we don’t have a good understanding of the contexts of information regarding the universe. We take contexts for granted. We’re so deeply entrenched in our own human frameworks of knowledge that we often overlook the broader contexts of information.
To return to the question of what a natural organism is: organisms are products of evolution, and we can make some general statements. Generally, they’re able to exploit their environment. In the case of animals, they can change their behaviour to increase their chances of survival.
Generally, living things carry out what we were taught in high school biology as the “seven life processes”: breathing, eating, excreting, reproduction, movement, sensitivity, and growth. Those functions help distinguish living things from nonliving things.
Living systems are also negentropic—they maintain order and resist descending into disorder. That’s another core feature of life.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/04
Riane Tennenhaus Eisler (born July 22, 1931, Vienna) is an Austrian-born American social systems scientist, cultural historian, futurist, attorney, and author. As a child she fled Nazi-occupied Austria with her parents in 1939, lived seven years in Havana’s industrial slums, and later emigrated to the United States; she went on to earn a B.A. (magna cum laude) and J.D. from UCLA. Eisler is best known for The Chalice and the Blade (1987), which introduced her “domination vs. partnership” framework for analyzing social systems. Her latest book is Nurturing Our Humanity with anthropologist Douglas Fry, Oxford University Press, 2019.
In this dialogue, Scott Douglas Jacobsen and Riane Eisler discuss the mystery of Fibonacci numbers and the golden ratio, patterns visible in seashells, galaxies, and human anatomy. Eisler emphasizes their educational value as universal truths, while Jacobsen notes cognitive and computational limits in fully grasping them. The conversation turns to AI, where Eisler warns of deepfakes eroding trust in truth itself. They contrast nature’s enduring order with AI’s convincing fabrications, underscoring the need for critical education.
Interview conducted October 4, 2025, in the afternoon Pacific Time.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What would you like to discuss for this special session today?
Riane Eisler: I would love to discuss Fibonacci numbers, as I recently revisited them.
Jacobsen: Oh, interesting.
Eisler: There are mysteries we still cannot understand. One of them is why these patterns appear everywhere. If I were a physicist or mathematician, I would want to know why. In my book on education, Tomorrow’s Children, I wrote about this.
In middle and high school, young people can be introduced to the extraordinary fact that mathematical patterns, or ratios, repeat themselves across seemingly unrelated natural forms: hurricanes, sea waves, galaxies, DNA, seashells, seahorses, ram’s horns, pine cones, even the proportions of human limbs and the reproductive rate of rabbits.
The ratio of one radius to the next larger is always about 0.618, and the ratio of a larger to a smaller is about 1.618. These patterns, discovered by Egyptian and Greek thinkers such as Pythagoras, were called the golden ratio or golden spiral. Leonardo Fibonacci showed the same principle in his famous series of numbers: 1, 1, 2, 3, 5, 8, 13, 21, 34, 55, 89, 144, and so on.
When you add adjacent numbers—say 2 and 3 to make 5, or 3 and 5 to make 8—the ratio of these pairs approaches the golden ratio. Fibonacci described this as a natural growth progression, tied to the Greek phi, or the creative order of the universe, related to logos, the root of the word “logarithmic.”
Students can connect this idea to the movie “Contact,” where the alien message could only be decoded through the “universal language” of mathematics. But here’s the deeper point: this underlying pattern has not been studied nearly enough, and, frankly, I’m not sure humanity even has the mental capacity to grasp it fully.
Jacobsen: There are certain limitations there. It’s also the contours of our thought, too. Certain things will pop out more easily depending on our habits of mind. Computers crunching numbers certainly help us see farther, but even they have their limits so far, right?
Eisler: But computers are today being used by AI—so-called artificial intelligence—to present falsehoods as truths.
Jacobsen: Because they can represent those patterns very convincingly. In a way, AI does something similar to Fibonacci’s sequence: it builds complex images out of simple repeated steps until you think you’re seeing nature itself.
Eisler: Very convincingly. Someone just launched videos of Nixon, for example, saying things he never actually said. But there he is on television, speaking those words—thanks to AI.
Jacobsen: Have you ever seen an excellent painting in a gallery with little people in the background? You walk up close and realize it’s just three or four squiggles. This is the modern, more sophisticated version of that—a very convincing fake. But the difference is, the squiggles never claimed to be reality.
Eisler: I find it somewhat unnerving, to tell you the truth, because what’s being called into question is truth itself. And truth is what gives those universal patterns—whether in shells, galaxies, or mathematics—their stability. When that ground is shaken, education must play an even greater role in helping young people distinguish enduring truths from manufactured illusions.
But, as I bring out in all my books, education is very different depending on where a society falls on the partnership-domination scale. In the United States, we today clearly see the conflict between movements challenging traditions of domination – from the “rights of Man” movement against monarchies and the “rights of Women” movement of the 1700s and 1800s to today’s Environmental movement – and the regression to domination, to more authoritarianism, fear, and violence. Here we also see an attempt to muzzle educational institutions, from book burnings in grammar schools and libraries to attempts to silence any dissent in universities and colleges.
Everyone of us must pay attention to this struggle between domination and partnership worldviews, especially in education!
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/04
The Rise in Antisemitism in the World
“Antisemitism around the world has been on the rise for several years.”
United Nations Watch (UN Watch), A/HRC/40/NGO/220 (2019)
“Our report’s findings are… clear: key UN agencies, officials and experts are turning a blind eye to escalating antisemitism worldwide.”
UN Watch, “Report: UN Ignored Antisemitism for Decade” (2018)
UN Watch on Actual Global Antisemitism
UN Watch filed a statement to the United Nations (UN), A/HRC/40/NGO/220, in February 2019. They told the Human Rights Council that antisemitism rates had been rising for years. They cited Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI) figures showing a 37% increase between 2016 and 2017.
Another UN Watch submission to the UN, A/HRC/42/NGO/151, in September 2019, reported on the rise in antisemitism. It is based on data from the EU Agency for Fundamental Rights (FRA) and Anti-Defamation League (AdL).
These echoed the warning of the UN Secretary-General. Their report, “The United Nations and Antisemitism: 2008–2017 — Report Card,” documented a decade-long global escalation of antisemitic attacks. They urged better responsiveness. More on this later.
Some Findings for Contextualization Elsewhere
UN Watch reports increased antisemitism globally. The AdL in the United States counted 9,354 antisemitic incidents in 2024. This amounts to a new record. U.S. officials reported 11,679 hate-crime incidents in 2024 (DOJ portal)T the FBI’s comparable-agency dataset shows 10,873. A methodological difference with the same corroborated trend.
Even among Jews in some countries, the EU Fundamental Rights Agency 2024 survey report shows widespread avoidance behaviours. Large majorities of Jews see antisemitism rising. If the AdL data tracks elsewhere, then the sentiment is, not only real but, accurately reflected in the data.
The Community Security Trust in the United Kingdom documented sustained levels of it. Indeed, there have been elevated levels of it, as concerns. These are potentially closely linked to the massacre of Israelis on October 7, 2023.
Hillel International documents record antisemitic incidents on campuses during the 2024-2025 academic year.
UN Actions Taken and Rights to Protect Jewish Peoples
The UN acknowledged a need to upgrade responsiveness. On January 17, 2025, the UN launched an Action Plan to enhance monitoring and response to antisemitism. There are rights with weight to protect the dignity and livelihood of Jewish people.
The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights stipulates an assurance of the rights to non-discrimination, expression, life, religion, and security. The International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination deals with anti-racism and anti-incitement and is binding. Racist incitement and organizations are to be prohibited.
The 1992 UN Declaration on Minorities (A/RES/47/135) is a General Assembly declaration — not legally binding, but authoritative — that addresses the protection of religious and ethnic minorities. These and other instruments can argue for equal rights and treatment for Jewish people internationally.
Antisemitism remains a documented and rising threat across multiple regions. UN Watch confirms it. Governments document it. Civil society organizations monitor it. International frameworks such as the ICCPR, ICERD, and the UN Minorities Declaration, among many others, provide binding or substantive protections in the case of treaties. They may include guiding norms in the case of declarations.
Objective data indicate the need for stronger institutional responses and sustained global vigilance. Let’s combat antisemitism together.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/04
On UN Watch
“The most important organization continually bringing to light the record of the UNHRC and UNGA.”
Robert L. Bernstein, Founding Chair, Human Rights Watch
“…a Geneva-based pro-Israeli monitor.”
The Economist
“UN Watch will not be getting a cheque from me.”
Ian Williams (The Guardian)
UN Watch ED Claims
Hillel Neuer, Executive Director of UN Watch, on Sky News, claimed, about the veracity of famine or not in Gaza, the following:
“No, this is a fabricated report… there is not famine.”
“There are objective measures… in this report, it was… politically motivated, to fabricate a finding of famine.”
“This report was not made in good faith.”
“These are Hamas claims laundered by a U.N.-backed report.”
These raise specific factual questions. Is there a famine in Gaza? Was the report objective? Was the report made in good faith? Are these Hamas-influenced or independent UN reportage? Further, is there external support for Mr. Neuer’s position or for the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification (a UN-backed multi-agency system for classifying levels of food insecurity) or IPC findings?
The IPC Findings
The IPC report confirmed famine in the Gaza Governorate as of August 15, 2025. By late September 2025, they expected famine conditions to spread to Deir al-Balah and Khan Younis.
Over half a million people in the Gaza Strip were stated as facing Catastrophe (IPC Phase 5), 1.07 million were in Emergency (IPC Phase 4), and 396,000 were in Crisis (IPC Phase 3). Numbers were projected to increase by the end of September.
Child and maternal malnutrition through June 2026 were projected to be about 132,000 children under five suffering from acute malnutrition, with approximately 41,000 suffering severely. About 55,500 pregnant and breastfeeding women will need urgent nutrition support.
IPC assessment found non-trauma mortality in the Gaza Governorate reached famine levels. Conditions in North Gaza are likely severe or worse. Insufficient data prevented proper classification in that case. Rafah was not analyzed because of depopulation. Totals may be underestimates.
Known factors contributing to the famine include escalating conflict and displacement, the collapse of humanitarian food deliveries from March to April, the decline in local food production, aid interceptions, and high food prices.
Water and sanitation conditions are worsening, disease outbreaks are concurrent, and monitoring systems are collapsing, indicating possible underreportage of non-trauma deaths. IPC urged immediate, large-scale, unobstructed multi-sector aid and an immediate ceasefire.
The Current Conclusion
In sum, Neuer declines these claims on the fundamentals: “There is no famine.” Is IPC isolated, or is Neuer isolated in the international community?
The World Health Organization supports the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification findings. The United Nations Children’s Fund supports the Integrated Food Security Phase Classification findings. The Food and Agriculture Organization of the United Nations supports the findings. The World Food Programme supports the findings.
Furthermore, the International Rescue Committee, the Red Cross Movement, The Lancet, the United Nations Relief and Works Agency for Palestine Refugees in the Near East, Médecins Sans Frontières, the United Nations Office for the Coordination of Humanitarian Affairs, the Famine Early Warning Systems Network, and the British Red Cross concur with the report.
The only formal rebuttal is the Government of Israel. No other support exists for Neuer’s assertions.
Therefore, the opposite is likely the case. There is a famine, as evidenced by objective measures and independent UN analysis, based on good faith. Neuer denies the facts and objective measures, is probably politically motivated, and is potentially not working in good faith, dependent on a single supportive claim: the Government of Israel.
By accusing the IPC of fabrication, politicization, and bad faith, Neuer describes the qualities apparent in his own denial. His rejection is not corroborated by independent evidence or credible institutions. He is isolated internationally on this, not because of anti-Israeli bias, but because Neuer is wrong.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/04
Scott Douglas Jacobsen and Rick Rosner explore the elusive meaning of information in the universe. Jacobsen frames physical impacts, like smashing a rock, as information exchanges, then asks how fluids, solids, and plasmas differ in recording such exchanges. Rosner notes humans treat information as news or signals, but cosmically, “it from bit” theorists see every quantum event as informational. Yet many events, like collisions or solar reactions, leave no lasting record. He compares this to consciousness, where micro-events are integrated into larger patterns. The dialogue highlights entropy, durability of records, and whether the universe meaningfully “remembers” its countless micro-events.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In an old thought experiment, we smashed a rock with a hammer. Another example is cutting a block of wood with an axe. The force impact, the shuffling around of atoms beyond their usual Brownian motion, can be thought of as an information exchange. What about the differences in information representation between fluids, solids, and plasmas?
Rick Rosner: At this point, I throw up my hands—we do not have a good universal definition of what information is. We know what human information tends to be: the news, local details about the world, sports scores, whether a traffic light is red or green, or whether someone is signalling they might be interested in being hit on. That is information in the human sphere.
Jacobsen: But what is information to the universe?
Rosner: The “it from bit” theorists claim every quantum event is an information event relevant to the structure of the universe. You can imagine a lifeless planet where a rock gets struck by another rock. That impact is still a kind of information exchange, even without observers.
The universe is self-consistent over time and space. If two rocks collide on a planet, that event is recorded in the material evidence. Send a camera there, and you would see traces of the collision. That means the event was durably recorded in the universe.
However, not every quantum event leaves a record. Take the Sun—quantum interactions happen constantly at its core, but most are obliterated. The Sun is far too hot and turbulent to keep records.
I have come to think that neither those solar events nor rocks hitting each other on a lifeless planet are especially relevant to the universe’s “understanding of itself.” They matter structurally, but they are micro-events the universe does not really “know,” in quotation marks.
It is similar to human consciousness. We do not register every microcognitive event that constitutes awareness. Our brains integrate them into larger patterns. Likewise, the universe as a whole may not “note” each micro or even macro event, such as a rock collision. If the universe is an information processor made up of ~10⁸⁵ particles, it seems implausible that it tracks every micro detail.
Jacobsen: That helps, at least a little. Typically, when there is a lot more movement internal to the system—say, in a cloud versus ice—that implies more entropy, correct?
Rosner: I have not thought of it precisely in those terms. Imagine two lifeless planets. One is entirely rocky, with no atmosphere. Events there are sparse: meteor strikes, cosmic ray impacts, erosion, and rocks falling. Now imagine another lifeless planet, but half covered with oceans. Suddenly, there is far more happening: turbulence, molecular exchanges, and constant dynamic change in the water.
Jacobsen: Does this difference—rocky stability versus fluid turbulence—affect the overall order or scale of order on those planets?
Rosner: I am not sure. On a lifeless planet with an ocean, most molecular movements in the water leave no durable record. Molecules constantly shift positions, stir around, and interact, but without cameras or instruments tracking them individually, their history is lost. You can infer movement indirectly—for example, by sediments deposited on the ocean floor—but you cannot reconstruct the path of each molecule.
As a result, you end up with two scenarios. On one planet, almost nothing happens. On the other hand, much happens, but leaves little trace. I am unsure of the informational implications of that.
Much of the universe seems to operate on implicate information—you know something happened, but you lack specifics. Everything is implied rather than explicitly recorded. I do not know the role information plays in the universe, but it seems important to figure out.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
Irina Tsukerman is a human rights and national security attorney based in New York and Connecticut. She earned her Bachelor of Arts in National and Intercultural Studies and Middle East Studies from Fordham University in 2006, followed by a Juris Doctor from Fordham University School of Law in 2009. She operates a boutique national security law practice. She serves as President of Scarab Rising, Inc., a media and security strategic advisory firm. Additionally, she is the Editor-in-Chief of The Washington Outsider, which focuses on foreign policy, geopolitics, security, and human rights. She is actively involved in several professional organizations, including the American Bar Association’s Energy, Environment, and Science and Technology Sections, where she serves as Program Vice Chair in the Oil and Gas Committee. She is also a member of the New York City Bar Association. She serves on the Middle East and North Africa Affairs Committee and affiliates with the Foreign and Comparative Law Committee.
In this interview with Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Tsukerman explores DNA evidence ambiguities, possible manipulation or false confessions, and gaps in the prosecution’s narrative. Tsukerman emphasizes due process, fair trial concerns, and the influence of political figures like Kash Patel. The conversation broadens to scapegoating in U.S. politics, parallels with antisemitism, and the rise of nihilistic “social media kills.” Tsukerman warns of shifting Republican attitudes toward immigration and the dangers of fringe grievances entering the mainstream.
Interview conducted on October 3, 2025, in the afternoon Pacific Time.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Quick background for readers: Based on the best available data from September 30—though newer details may exist—the subject is a 22-year-old Utah resident from Washington, Utah, a third-year student in the electrical program at Dixie Technical College, born April 16, 2003. He was not a student at Utah Valley University. He allegedly shot and killed Charlie Kirkland on September 10 with a Mauser .30-06 bolt-action rifle equipped with a scope. Early reports claimed a DNA match on the rifle’s trigger, but filings state the DNA was “consistent with Robinson,” which is not the same as a definitive match.
The charges include aggravated murder—a capital felony under Utah law—felony discharge of a firearm causing serious bodily harm, two counts of obstruction of justice, two counts of witness tampering, committing a violent offense in the presence of a child, and a victim-targeting enhancement (political expression).
Irina Tsukerman: Those are very serious charges. Even with the gravity of what happened, the prosecution still has to prove its case. Several pieces of evidence suggest Tyler confessed in certain forums, but gaps in the timeline raise questions. It is possible he was manipulated into taking credit for something committed with assistance, or even by another associate. It is also possible he acted alone, disturbed and reckless, and then bragged about it on Discord. Both scenarios remain plausible.
Jacobsen: There was also a bizarre twist involving a 71-year-old who briefly claimed responsibility. He was later apprehended and charged with another crime, not murder.
Tsukerman: It raises the possibility that some early suspects were red herrings or decoys. That confusion underscores the complexity here. Tyler could be exactly what he seems: a disturbed young man who carried out a horrific crime. But he also might have had help or encouragement.
The real question is whether prosecutors will pursue speculation about conspirators without clear evidence, or stick to what they can prove. There is also concern about whether Tyler will face a fair trial, given that the death penalty is on the table under Utah law, and whether federal charges could come into play.
Jacobsen: So far there is no evidence of terrorist intent, aside from his personal extremism, which seems to have emerged over the last year or so.
Tsukerman: The added complication is whether remarks from officials—and especially Kash Patel’s involvement in handling the case—could jeopardize the prosecution’s strategy.
Jacobsen: Are these types of charges for a 22-year-old white male in the United States unusual? Is this a serious set of charges for someone like that?
Tsukerman: It is not unusual overall, but unusual for Tyler—not because he is young, male, and white, but because he comes from a Republican family in Utah, which is not a high-crime profile. We have had high-profile cases involving young, somewhat charismatic white men—like Scott Peterson, accused of murdering his pregnant wife. He is still on death row, facing execution. Some similar cases have been commuted to life in prison, but originally it was a death penalty case.
Jacobsen: So Tyler represents something new?
Tsukerman: Yes. He appears to be part of a new type of killer: more nihilistic, less motivated by clear goals. In Scott Peterson’s case, it was getting rid of his family, possibly for insurance money. In others, the motive is profit, an affair, or sociopathic tendencies. Tyler’s case looks more like a “social media kill”—a crime committed partly to boast about.
We saw something similar with the Jack Teixeira case. Who knows if he would have committed a serious security violation without the audience to whom he could perform, claiming a moral stand? This modern obsession with validation seems to be pushing confused young people into crime.
Jacobsen: In my research, disturbed young white males in the U.S. peak around age 17 for school mass shootings. They make up well over 90–95% of those killers. That is not to say Native American, Hispanic, or Black boys do not kill, but they tend to express alienation through gangs rather than individual school shootings. Does that match your assessment?
Tsukerman: Yes, though, it has evolved. There used to be no shortage of white American gangs—Irish gangs fighting on the streets decades ago. That pattern has shifted.
There is now a sense of young men either self-isolating or congregating in groups that are not built on initiation ceremonies or ritualized violence, but instead on informal violence—boasting and proving credibility to anonymous onlookers, rather than building real community.
Whether this comes from social media, family environment, politics, self-perception, or a faltering sense of identity, there has clearly been a shift.
Jacobsen: Are the attempts to connect this murder with a possible roommate, a brief romantic partner, or someone who may or may not identify as transgender—primarily by the American right—legitimate in any way? Or is this more of a scurrilous attempt to smear a group of people?
Tsukerman: Investigators should look at all possible angles and motives. It is not unreasonable to question and seek evidence. But the key is evidence. You cannot drag someone’s name through the mud, project guilt by association, or treat an individual as an unindicted co-conspirator when there is absolutely no evidence linking them to the crime.
Jacobsen: We recently completed a glossary-length set of interviews on anti-Semitism. Even after interviewing people in strange domains, I was still shocked at the degree to which people expressed such detached, extreme views. It raises a similar mechanism: a Jewish American who happens to have an Israeli passport gets accused of “dual loyalty.” That trope has centuries of history. Is it the same kind of cognitive glitch that produces this scapegoating?
Tsukerman: It is a chicken-and-egg problem. Some people may have latent anti-Semitism that recent events brought out. Others may have started neutral, but constant reinforcement from media, politicians, and echo chambers planted the ideas until they took root, often feeding off conflicting thoughts and grievances.
I argued with someone recently about anti-immigration politics. The question was whether Trump and his policies created an extreme level of xenophobia and nativism among Americans—or whether that sentiment had always existed, suppressed until now. My view is that constant media reinforcement and policies pushed people toward positions they otherwise might not have considered.
Up until recently, there was no evidence of broad anti-immigration sentiment among Republicans. There was always bipartisan consensus against illegal immigration, which grew stronger on the Republican side in recent years. But Republicans had also been broadly supportive of some forms of migration—perhaps not lottery or chain migration, but definitely skilled migration or policies that could bring tangible benefits.
The Republican Party historically supported parts of the immigration system—working visas, some student visas, and, under certain circumstances, broader migration categories. The current broad rejection of nearly all forms of migration is relatively new.
There have always been individuals focused on visa fraud or who felt disadvantaged by immigration, but it is unclear whether those individuals were representative of Republican sentiment overall, or whether they simply became more politically vocal in recent years because they feel harmed.
That raises the question: is it good for society when previously fringe grievances are suddenly brought into the mainstream? Sometimes it may be best if certain impulses remain beneath the surface. Not every “demon” in society needs to be unleashed. In some cases, restraint itself is a form of victory.
Jacobsen: You mentioned inconsistencies in the case. Should we cover that now or save it for next week?
Tsukerman: Let’s cover it briefly. There are periods of time unaccounted for—gaps in video surveillance, inconsistencies in Tyler’s mother’s account, and contradictions in Tyler’s own social media comments compared to the narrative prosecutors are building. The storyline—how Tyler left his house, ended up at the scene with Kirk, and returned home boasting about it—still contains unexplained elements.
There could be innocuous explanations. Perhaps he stopped somewhere for a drink, perhaps cameras did not cover a particular route, or maybe there was a delay caused by something mundane like bumping into someone or taking a phone call. None of that necessarily means he did not commit the crime.
But given the seriousness of the charges, prosecutors must prove guilt beyond a reasonable doubt. That requires constructing a clear and consistent account of his whereabouts from departure to return, and showing conclusively that he was the one who held and fired the weapon—not simply someone who later took credit.
That is particularly difficult because history shows many people falsely confess to crimes. Police have wasted countless hours chasing false leads when disturbed or attention-seeking individuals claimed responsibility. If Tyler was present but not the shooter, yet still took credit, that would complicate the prosecution further.
Jacobsen: Great. I’ll see you next week.
Tsukerman: Thank you.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
Tauya Chinama is a Zimbabwean freethinker, educator, and advocate for human rights and cultural preserver. Trained in philosophy and theology, he transitioned from religious study to humanism, emphasizing intellectual honesty, dialogue, and heritage-based education. As a teacher of heritage studies, he works to integrate indigenous knowledge and languages into learning systems, arguing that language carries culture, history, and identity. Chinama is active in Zimbabwe’s humanist movement, contributing to interfaith dialogues, academic research, and public discourse on secularism, ethics, and education reform. He champions the preservation of Shona, Ndebele and other local languages while critiquing systemic barriers that weaken local language education.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen and Chinama examine persistent barriers for African humanists: financing travel and securing visas for global conferences. Jacobsen urges early tracking of World Humanist Congress and Humanists International grant windows. Chinama notes high costs, dependence on grants, and uneven representation, with hopes for events hosted in Africa. Visa systems create collateral damage, as strained diplomatic relations delay approvals and force costly applications in third world countries. Chinama advocates income generating projects and institutions to self fund participation, strengthen training, and amplify voices.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let us focus on financing for travel and visas for African humanists. Since I’ve been in the movement, this has been a consistent issue. It’s essential to keep the discussion alive so that each year it becomes a little easier, whether through increased financing or improved methods for navigating visa difficulties.
There are grants, such as travel grants to the World Humanist Congress or the Humanists International General Assembly, but they open quite early. So my first point: any African humanist or group wanting to send a delegate should look online and track when those applications open. What have been your experiences with funding challenges and visa challenges, and how have you seen them overcome?
Tauya Chinama: Sometimes, those of us from the Global South face significant obstacles. Travel becomes so expensive that we must rely on grants, which limit the influence we can have globally. In the future, we will have more opportunities, perhaps with the Humanist Congress or conferences being held in Africa.
This coming year, it will be in Canada. It may eventually reach Africa. A couple of years ago, it was in Singapore. Last year it was in Luxembourg. In the near future, it will be hosted on the African continent.
Another way we can overcome these challenges is by developing income-generating projects, allowing us to self-fund. Relying on grants is not sustainable, because there is no guarantee we will receive them.
For example, I doubt if the board of Humanists International currently has anyone from Southern Africa. I don’t think so. Yes, humanists are representing Africa—such as Dr. Leo Igwe and Roslyn—but both are from West Africa. We also need representation from Southern Africa and Eastern Africa.
It’s very rare to find humanists in North Africa because the region is predominantly Muslim. There may be a few among Shia Muslims, but openly identifying as a humanist is difficult. I have experienced this through my interactions with Iranians here in Zimbabwe, who usually invite me to interfaith dialogues. That’s one way we try to engage.
Sometimes we are fortunate. For example, in December of 2024, a number of African humanists were sponsored by the German Research Foundation to attend a conference on Decolonizing Secularity in South Africa, among those humanists were Michelle Nekesa from Kenya, myself from Zimbabwe, Wonderful Mkhutshe from Malawi, and Dr. Leo Igwe from Nigeria. We had the opportunity to sit together, hold a panel, and agree that we need to focus on training humanist leaders to develop strategies for financing their activities.
Jacobsen: How are visas handled in Africa when leaving the region for an international conference? Are they handled only at the national level, or is there a regional system in place?
Chinama: That is another challenge we face. We often suffer what I call “collateral damage.” If our country has poor relations with a Western country, visas may be delayed or denied. Sometimes, you receive the visa only after the conference has already taken place.
For example, if a conference is scheduled in the United States, Zimbabwe’s strained relationship with the U.S. makes the process nearly impossible. Currently, Zimbabweans cannot apply for U.S. visas directly in Zimbabwe; they must travel to South Africa to do so. That adds cost and time, and many individuals struggle to manage it.
I still need to check if it’s possible to get a visa here in Zimbabwe for Canada, but it might be easier because Canada has an embassy here. Unless they follow the United States’ example, the U.S. embassy here remains open, but it has suspended its visa applications. They closed it due to corruption: several people were issued diplomatic passports, including individuals who should not have received them, such as those outside the high-ranking security sector. That abuse has created collateral damage for everyone, even for our neighbours in South Africa.
South Africa once complained that they were receiving too many diplomats from Zimbabwe each day, and officials were misusing diplomatic passports. And when someone has a diplomatic passport, the receiving country is responsible for their security, which is costly. As humanists, we often suffer due to strained relations between governments or reckless policies regarding passports.
Jacobsen: Are there any internal humanist groups in African countries that can fund or subsidize travel for their delegates? Or is that unrealistic at this point?
Chinama: At the moment, we don’t have such groups in Africa. Humanists usually rely on their own resources. Whether it’s appearing in media, travelling, or engaging internationally, without outside support, we must do it ourselves. For example, this coming November 2025), I have been invited to Zambia for World Philosophy Day. While organizers said they might cover part of my expenses, I had to prepare to fund the trip myself.
So, it’s really about sacrifice. But African humanists don’t need endless grants. What we need is something like student funding or development funding—opportunities to buy land, establish schools, or create institutions that generate income while serving society. That way, we’re not always seen as complaining in the media but as active contributors, capable of funding our own participation in international conferences and sharing African perspectives.
Because what it means to be a humanist in Canada differs from what it means in Zimbabwe, Singapore, or Australia. Each context shapes humanism differently.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Tauya.
Chinama: Thank you.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
Scott Douglas Jacobsen and Rick Rosner discuss whether information is ultimately preserved or lost in both human minds and the universe. Jacobsen suggests that minds accumulate information until cognitive decline, while Rosner emphasizes that contradictions do not erase prior knowledge but reframe it within context. Extending the analogy, Rosner argues that the universe may form “thoughts” over billions of years, similar to how the brain integrates sensory and memory inputs. However, because each universal “thought” takes about 15 billion years, humans cannot perceive its arc of knowledge or decay within our limited lifespans.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: In IC, is information on net preserved and/or increased?
Rick Rosner: It depends on how you count it. It depends on whether it can be.
Jacobsen: I would reason from the information held in our minds, because I think there are strong analogies. Generally, the net amount of information in our minds increases throughout life until the brain begins to break down, at which point we lose information gradually—or eventually all at once, when we die. So I think you can reason similarly about information in the universe. You can also lose information when what you know is contradicted by new information.
Rosner: That’s slightly different, because the earlier information was valid within a particular context. If you get contradictory information in a different enough context, you’re not really erasing the first information—you’re reframing it. So whether information is net gained depends on what you’re learning and on the condition of the hardware that lets you maintain the information.
Jacobsen: Maybe that’s another way to frame the question. Over an individual’s life, there’s an arc in both the amount and the quality of information their mind contains. If you average it over the lifespan, you get a kind of line of best fit. Could you make the same argument for the universe—that there are fluctuations in the net amount of information?
Rosner: No, you can’t make the same argument, because extending it to the universe suggests different dynamics. I tend to think that 10 or 20 billion years is roughly the lifespan of the universe’s ability to share information about the current context across itself. That’s the equivalent of a thought. For you to have a thought, new information comes in from your senses, your memory, and your judgment, and all of it integrates to create a picture of the present moment. That information has to be shared across your entire brain. If you pay attention to your own thinking, you can notice subtle effects—different parts of the brain processing bits of the same moment slightly out of sync, sometimes a quarter of a second apart. If you pay attention closely, you can catch yourself saying, “I knew that was going to happen.” Like when you set a cup on the counter, miss, and it tips off. You tell yourself, “I could see that coming.”
One of the reasons you might feel like you saw it coming is because, in part of your experience, it already happened. Within a quarter of a second, maybe a fifth, you can second-guess what you’re about to do because you sense it will have a bad consequence. Except you’re not really stopping yourself, because the action has already occurred—part of your brain just hasn’t processed it yet. All of that unfolds within a fraction of a second. I believe the universe forms “thoughts” across its entire extent, on the timescale of light traveling across it—10 to 20 billion years. So if we say the universe has an arc of knowledge, like how people accumulate information and wisdom across a lifespan, then we have to consider the scale. If I do the math: say 10,000 thoughts an hour, 10 hours a day, that’s 100,000 thoughts daily. I’ve lived about 25,000 days, so that’s in the billions of thoughts—a staggering number. If the universe is analogous, it also has a staggering number of thoughts. But for us to see a curve of its growth or decay would take quintillions or sextillions of years, because each “thought” takes 15 billion years. So no, we can’t observe that arc. If the analogy holds, we simply don’t live long enough.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
The Amman Citadel, perched on Jabal al-Qal’a, offers a living chronicle of civilizations stacked across time. From the Ammonites of the 9th century BCE, whose inscriptions to Milkom survive, to Roman temples, Byzantine churches, and Umayyad palaces, the site reflects continual reconstitution. The Temple of Hercules, colossal ruins, Byzantine adaptations, and Umayyad architecture illustrate layers of cultural inheritance, interrupted by earthquakes and restored in modern times. The Archaeological Museum, once home to the Dead Sea Scrolls, deepens the story. Visiting reveals more than ruins—it is a lesson in how civilizations adapt, recycle, and endure, while raising questions about humanity’s future.
Arrival and Atmosphere
Amman in the Summer is hot. It’s a Friday. I am adjusting not only to the heat, but also to the beautiful, tan-coloured landscapes everywhere, across the view from a vantage point.
I took a ride to the top and entrance of Amman Citadel. I wasn’t allowed in, as there was a need to wait until it opened. No worries, the heat is not scorching… yet. Waiting and waiting, and waiting, check out the dirt, the weeds, the plastic trash sprawled on the hills, broken concrete staircases, and it’s open.
The ridge, Jabal al-Qal’a, had inhabitants living and fortifying it by the Middle Bronze Age. The Ammonites made what is now known as the Ammon Citadel their capital. The Ammon Citadel has an inscription in Ammonite. According to experts, this is the earliest known text in the Ammonite language. It was discovered in 1961 and dates back to the late 9th century BCE, and is thought to be a building dedicated to the god Milkom. Today, it is housed in the on-site Archaeological Museum.
There are the standard entrance payments. Tour guides are on standby, and for a reasonable price in dinar. Tourism is currently at a very low level. After the tours, you will be offered more information about further opportunities as part of the bargaining or negotiation process.
Empires and Reconstitution
An inscription from the mid-2nd century CE misnamed a location at Amon Citadel as the Temple of Hercules. The inscription was to Governor Geminius Marcianius (161-166 CE). The temple podium measured 43 meters by 27 meters, with columns 13.5 meters tall. In the 1990s, restorers added three new column drums. They lifted a massive 16-ton architrave.
A colossal marble hand was found nearby. This suggests that a Hercules statue originally stood about 13 meters high. A 6th-century Byzantine church was built using Roman stone. The church aisles visibly incorporate re-cut Roman columns. Early Islamic period artisans transformed the hill into a complex featuring the Umayyad audience hall, cistern, colonnaded street, and mosque.
A massive earthquake occurred in AD 749. This damaged most of these. Archaeologists highlight tilted column bases and a broken water channel in situ as direct evidence of the quake’s destruction. These were watched over by an Ayyubid tower built from spolia. The tower, constructed in the early 13th century, incorporates Roman column drums into its walls and underwent restoration in 1996.
Starting in 1951, the Jordan Archaeological Museum on a small hilltop displayed Dead Sea Scrolls and ‘Ain Ghazal statues. Most of the ruins are left underground, unexplored. Some sources give 1952 as the founding date. The museum once housed the Copper Scroll. These headline pieces now anchor the Jordan Museum downtown, which opened in 2013. Those are now in the Jordan Museum in Amman.
Lessons in Layers
Going through with a tour guide is highly recommended, as the history of stacked civilizations is deep; that’s an essential observational lesson, among many. One, civilizations rise and fall. Two, we aren’t as much of an inventive species as a reconstitutive species. New cultures co-opt the old/dying/dead culture and build upon it. Ammon Citadel represents this more clearly with architectural reconstitution. Even the Umayyad audience hall’s dome today is a 1998 reconstruction, completed by a Spanish team.
Get the correct view, whether live or online, in one gaze. You can almost see Ammonite letters, Roman columns, Byzantine aisles, Umayyad stucco, and the contemporary city of Amman living below. The city’s own names trace the strata: Rabbath-Ammon, then Philadelphia, then Amman. It raises a civilizational existential query: What next? If.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
Between the 1960s and 1990s, thousands of parents in Serbia and Croatia were told their newborns had died, often without proof. The ECtHR ruled in Zorica Jovanović v. Serbia (2013) and Petrović v. Croatia (2025) that states violated family rights. Allegations include falsified identities, missing records, and illicit payments. Serbia has enacted reforms; Croatia must follow suit.
The Timeline
From the 1960s through the 1990s in the former Yugoslavia (especially Serbia and Croatia), many parents were told their newborns had died. Bodies were rarely shown. Records were inconsistent. Important to emphasize, the missing babies were taken from across the entire territory of former Yugoslavia.
In central Belgrade, there was one headquarters of the East German secret service, Stasi. These were involved in population control and demographic operations. This secret service cooperated with the KGB, some police, some hospitals,and some Serbian intelligence services, to orchestrate the transfer of children to EU nations and the US.
Authoritative monitors estimate as many as 250,000 newborn disappearances over approximately seven decades. Exact tallies remain uncertain pending further investigation. In 2013, in Zorica Jovanović v. Serbia, the European Court of Human Rights (ECtHR) found violation of Article 8 (right to family life). There was a failure to provide credible information on a newborn’s fate. Serbia was instructed to create a mechanism for all similar parents.
In 2020, Serbia enacted the Law on Establishing Facts on the Status of Newborn Children Suspected of Having Disappeared from Maternity Hospitals, to operationalize case-by-case fact-finding and compensation for damages. By mid-2021, the Belgrade Higher Court had received 694 applications. One had been resolved, and about 99 were pending at that time.
In 2025, in Petrović and Others v. Croatia, the ECtHR again found a violation of Article 8. An independent national mechanism was required to establish each child’s fate and award compensation.
The Patterns and Further Findings
Some documented patterns have emerged. These “paper deaths” came with the parents being told about the death. No body or burial proof was shown. There were registry contradictions. Records from funeral firms indicate that no remains were delivered. Therefore, documented patterns represent contradictions, knowledge gaps, and a lack of evidence.
Additional reported elements involve identity laundering, including for adoption. In one case, officials listed a mother who did not exist. This was processed into a rapid relinquishment. The reported workflow was about a week.
Alleged illegal payments have also been noted. Fees of up to around US$10,000 (in 1998 equivalencies) were reported in one case. In addition, 29 adoption files went missing between 1976 and 1981 from a social-work center in Aleksinac. Therefore, data can involve finances, missing partial registries, or falsification of identity.
Science as Partial Solution
Some positives have emerged from these stories, including a September 2021 DNA-confirmed reunion in Serbia, which demonstrates the feasibility of genetic tracing in helping to facilitate reunification and other rights-based efforts (see the 2013 and 2025 court cases, as well as the 2020 law mentioned above).
Serbia has the Missing Children hotline, operated by ASTRA and linked to the Missing Children Europe network. Several crucial items will require follow-through from this long history of crimes to rights-based action.
What Happens Next for Justice
Serbia has a mechanism in law. There are monitoring bodies. There are academics. These should continue to be assessed. They should be implemented to evaluate their efficacy. Croatia should establish an independent mechanism capable of issuing subpoenas to obtain credible answers and compensation, thereby meeting the ECtHR’s Article 46 obligations and ensuring their execution.
Former Serbian Orthodox Church deacon Bojan Jovanović has been a whistleblower on clerical abuse and authored Ispovest – Kako smo ubili Boga (2021). The public launch and interviews have documented regional media coverage.
Jovanović notes the missing babies are a combined failure of trafficking crimes and institutional shortcomings. He continues to advocate for justice in these cases.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
Identity and culture are both fluid, evolving constructs shaped by global interaction. Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson emphasizes the Self as dynamic, while cultures shift through collective human behavior. Misaligned assumptions, epistemic colonialism, and stereotypes—whether East-to-West or West-to-East—risk reducing individuals to types rather than respecting their individuality. Translation tools bridge language but often fail at nuance, idioms, and cultural subtext, creating further misunderstandings. In intercultural settings, respect, openness, and sensitivity are essential, particularly regarding communication, cognition, and conduct. Withdrawal from harmful exchanges is valid self-care. Ultimately, cultivating empathy and dialogue fosters dignity, cooperation, and resilience in a globalized era.
An important lesson, reinforced through repetition, due to its pervasive fluidity, is the notion of cultures interacting with the Self. As Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson shows, the Self as a construct is fluid and dynamic. Cultures, being made of collectives of people, are fluid in quantity and in statistical dynamics, too. Therefore, the Self and Culture are active naturalistic constructs; both individual identity and cultural norms evolve dynamically.
As international boundaries and borders fluctuate in the era of mass communication and travel, everyone must be internationally oriented and globally minded. We are all in the same boat with anthropogenic climate change, for example. Cross-border cooperation is essential in climate response. Evolution overwhelmingly suggests that we are all part of the same species. Some in what is called the West may not be aware of what some in what is called the East may assume about them. Perception gaps are fundamental. In them, stereotypes often travel asymmetrically.
These assumptions are emotional soft spots. Intercultural mistakes and enmity can erode relations. Therefore, let us cover some of those soft spots, so you do not become a type in the mind of the other person as an Other rather than remain an individual: A fill-in for the worst stereotypes about the West, or the East, if the other case emerges. Stereotype threat is a common risk.
Immaturity can reign here if not reined in, even amongst adults. One soft spot is in cognitive styles: How we know. A core claim or emphasis is the view of epistemic colonialism, as seen from what is perceived as “the West.” The types of methodologies. How things are verified. The platforms that are promoted. The people promoted on those platforms. The people are also barred from those platforms.
When working in these contexts, these cognitive rule sets are crucial. Different disciplines work on distinct skills, mental models, and timelines. Universes of epistemic discourse differ. This occurs with cultural interjection into the disciplines: do not inquire within a closed frame; ask questions in an open frame, remain calm and respectful; and, if they fail to ask enough questions to form a robust opinion, then that is on them. Same for you. Open-ended, non-judgmental inquiry is important in dialogue.
When coming to another country, region, or hemisphere, the professional standards in a single discipline tend to be the same. The cultural frame of a discipline’s utility function can differ. Discussions across disciplines and cultures multiply the problems in discussion and hinder mutual comprehension, which serves as a basis for empathy. Misaligned assumptions are an obstacle; structured dialogue can mitigate this.
So, the epistemic core of the problem between someone who sees humanity divided into East and West, rather than as one species or ‘family,’ is an epistemic perception of a Western country extended everywhere. You do not have to believe this. This will be imputed. People impute group membership, even as individuals resist it.
Another context is communication, or how we speak and how we listen. It becomes complicated in the era of algorithms or large language models capable of nearly instantaneously translating text for you. The benchmark of communication between cultural interlocutors is lower. The gripe is a lack of linguistic or cultural duty of care.
Please speak to a person where they are at, rather than where you want them to be. This one takes more mindfulness and practice. However, a basic LLM or Google Translate can break the boundaries and increase the sharing of mutual meaning. At the same time, these tools miss idioms, politeness, and cultural subtext.
Some of what they see as the East interacting with someone they perceive as being from the West will be sensitive to the silent interactions involved in the cultural and linguistic duty of care. A sensitivity to the interpretation, pace, and register is not separate from the translation of meaning. They are part of conveying meaning. High-context cultures rely more on pacing and indirectness.
Another facet is the behaviour in the culture. In a more openly social culture with the elements of communication more silent than ‘loud,’ a focus on what you see acted out and left unsaid becomes more important than direct translations. LLMs and algorithms often remain limited or ineffective in this context, frequently leading to the most intercultural failures. This leans from conduct into the consequences. Machine translation accuracy drops with contextual meaning.
In any tourism, travel, or professional context abroad, locals generally bear the brunt of the dangers. Outsiders reap prestige, to them. Whether or not this is true, this is the sentiment. Therefore, sensitivity should be based on the principles of mutual respect and accountability: Share the risk and share the credit.
Cross-cultural contexts, if the individual interlocutor on either end is reduced to a stereotype, calm and respect can dissipate as fog from a sunny morning if the stereotyping checks in. After a sufficient amount of time in the morning, the stereotype will overtake the perception of the individual as an individual, as we all want to be treated as, and then move into treating an individual as a type. Stereotype persistence and outgroup homogenization are real.
You should have a sense of mutual dignity for the individual doing so and yourself, as well as maintaining a sense of self-respect: Respectfully recuse yourself. You do not have to take part in your own emotional abuse. If you do not have the basis for this mutual respect, then it is reasonable to do so. You are responsible only for yourself. Withdrawal is a valid protective response. Self-care is ethically sound.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
Robert J. Bolton Jr. is President and Executive Director (and Bishop) of The Interchurch Center, a Class A community hub in New York City for mission-driven organizations. He guides nonprofits to secure not merely offices but strategic homes. With over 10 years of experience managing complex facility portfolios—encompassing more than 200 properties and multifaceted budgets—he leverages AI and cloud platforms to streamline leasing, maintenance, finance, and communications, thereby lowering costs and enhancing tenant satisfaction. Over two decades, Bolton has built high-performing teams, founded a thriving church and nonprofit, and led programs in food security, education, mentorship, and spiritual formation—aligning people, purpose, and process to revitalize communities.
In this interview with Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Bolton explains how the landmark “God Box” provides more than just office space for nonprofits. By offering below-market rents, cultural and spiritual amenities, and community-driven programming, the Center creates a “strategic home” that empowers organizations to focus on their missions. Bolton highlights the integration of AI and cloud tools to streamline leasing, finance, and facilities management, while also emphasizing collaboration between diverse tenants. From accessibility to cybersecurity, Bolton’s vision aligns people, purpose, and process to strengthen the impact of nonprofits.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Robert J. Bolton Jr., President and Executive Director of The Interchurch Center—often called “the God Box”—a Class A community hub for mission-driven organizations in New York City. What problem in New York’s nonprofit office market do you solve better than standard Class A landlords or co-working spaces?
Robert J. Bolton Jr.: A significant challenge is the high cost of leasing office space, which can distract nonprofits from their mission. At The Interchurch Center, we offer below-market office space exclusively to nonprofits, allowing them to focus on their work.
We also offer a range of meaningful amenities—free or low-cost event and conference spaces, a chapel, art gallery programming, and an on-site cafeteria—creating an all-in-one home base that helps tenants focus on serving the community.
Jacobsen: What is an ideal tenant mix—size, sector, faith-based or secular?
Bolton: We host a wide variety of nonprofits, including faith-based, cultural, educational, advocacy, and more. The Interchurch Center began with a faith-based focus in 1960 and today welcomes 501(c)(3) organizations across many mission areas.
Jacobsen: What amenities do tenants use most?
Bolton: Our community and event spaces are in heavy use for meetings, trainings, and galas, and our chapel and cultural programming are distinctive draws. Having these on-site, plus an accessible cafeteria, reduces friction and costs for tenants.
Jacobsen: What role does technology play in reducing costs?
Bolton: We utilize technology to enhance the tenant experience—from security to communication—and reduce costs primarily through careful stewardship and by maintaining a well-occupied building, which helps share operating costs across tenants.
Jacobsen: What kinds of nonprofits are the best fit for The Interchurch Center?
Bolton: Faith-based organizations, certainly, but also cultural, educational, advocacy, and community-focused nonprofits of many kinds. We are a 19-story, ~600,000-square-foot landmark at 475 Riverside Drive, existing to serve a diverse nonprofit community.
That is the foundation of who we are—educational organizations, youth development organizations, justice-focused groups, cultural organizations. If they are doing something positive and serving the community, we want to talk to them.
We believe these organizations can come together—whether serving youth or seniors—to collaborate and work together. For example, a youth group and a senior group could connect, with seniors offering wisdom to the youth and the youth bringing energy to the seniors. There are many ways for our tenants to collaborate as a community.
Jacobsen: How do you measure tenant satisfaction?
Bolton: By doing surveys, talking to tenants, keeping open dialogue, hosting tenant consultation committees and orientations, and simply maintaining consistent communication.
Jacobsen: How do you balance faith-based and secular organizations?
Bolton: By bringing everyone together and celebrating the values we share, not the differences. Sometimes differences enhance our thinking and open us to new conversations and possibilities. However, our focus is on celebrating what we have in common.
Jacobsen: How does a strategic home go beyond simply renting an office?
Bolton: I call The Interchurch Center a strategic home because we want it to be a home away from home for our tenants, especially in today’s hybrid culture, where people may be in the office only two days a week. We want people to want to come to our building. We provide wellness programs, a cafeteria, and spaces for people to gather and connect with others. That sense of belonging is what makes it a strategic home.
Jacobsen: How do AI and cloud tools work in your operations—ticket resolution times, lease cycle hours, efficiency gains?
Bolton: We are still in the early stages of exploring AI, but we are actively pushing it into our operations. We utilize AI to streamline processes, including financial systems, lease management, contract tracking, and communication. I tell my team: let AI do the work so we can focus on the human side, the creative and fun parts.
Jacobsen: What is the community impact that you are most proud of?
Bolton: Helping people help people. We host a wide range of organizations that are dedicated to service, and our role is to support them. We also seek ways to support the community directly. For example, we have a Thanksgiving giveaway planned, and today we are holding a cancer awareness event in celebration of Breast Cancer Awareness Month. We are proud of these direct efforts, but above all, we are proud of the organizations we enable that help others every day.
Jacobsen: What is the tenant journey? Let us say you get an inquiry. How does that move from initial contact to either a pass or acceptance?
Bolton: A typical process begins when someone reaches out—through our website, by phone, or other avenues. We then schedule a tour of our facility. Once they see the building and all we have to offer, they are usually impressed.
The next step is typically signing a letter of intent, followed by board approval on their side. After that, we work out a lease for the appropriate term, sign the agreement, provide an orientation, hand over the keys, take a welcome photo, and officially welcome them to the family.
Jacobsen: What about reputational spillover across faith or mission-driven sectors? If groups have a good—or even average—experience, they share that with others. How does that kind of word-of-mouth impact your growth and outreach?
Bolton: We encourage our tenants, whom I prefer to call our partners, to share their experiences. We have been the “best kept secret” for too long, and now we want others to know about us.
Word of mouth is one of the strongest forms of marketing. Mission-driven organizations want to help other mission-driven organizations. If they find value here—and most of them do—they are eager to share that with others.
Jacobsen: Let us talk about accessibility, for example, multilingual communications. How do you approach these areas?
Bolton: We encourage multilingual communication where necessary, because we serve a very diverse tenant base. Bilingual or multilingual resources help ensure everyone feels included and supported.
Jacobsen: What about chapel use and the risk of proselytizing?
Bolton: We are careful to make the chapel a space of inclusion. For example, just yesterday we hosted the Feast of Creation, where representatives from Muslim, Christian, and other faith communities came together to discuss environmental stewardship. It demonstrated how people of different faiths can unite around shared values, such as caring for our planet.
Jacobsen: You mentioned cybersecurity earlier. Let us move into the infrastructure side—electrification, HVAC, air quality, and cybersecurity. How do you handle those less glamorous but essential areas?
Bolton: Those are different entities within our building, but they all fall under one of our core pillars. Our pillars are integrated facilities management, tenant experience, community engagement, and business continuity.
What you are describing is integrated facilities management—how we care for and steward our facility by providing the best HVAC systems, using AI and other tools for more efficient operations, and maintaining strong cybersecurity. IT, security, and facilities management all work together to create a cohesive environment for our building.
Jacobsen: What has been your favourite event?
Bolton: I will answer that by looking ahead. We are celebrating our 65th anniversary on the 10th of this year. We will be honouring several people, and we want to make it a truly special celebration. That is going to be my favourite event.
Jacobsen: Thank you very much for your time today. It was a pleasure speaking with you, and congratulations on the great work you are doing.
Bolton: Thank you. I appreciate it.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
After arriving at the border crossing between Israel and Jordan, I was told to take a taxi after being dropped off at a truck stop, essentially. One taxi was there. Go to it, no one in it–uh-oh. The heat waves blasted. I talked to a trucker. They direct me to the road and the crossing station. I spoke to some people.
The kindness of a stranger let me into the crossing, as he drove me. He was not supposed to do this. Next was the formal cross. Border rules vary by day. Israel typically issues entry/exit cards instead of stamping passports. At some land crossings, you may still receive either an entry card or a stamp. Keep the blue entry/exit card with you. Since 2024, many visa-exempt visitors also need ETA-IL preauthorization.
In the Allenby/King Hussein Bridge crossing, there is a Palestinian line. There is a VIP Palestinian line. You put luggage through a scanner. You walk through another detector, shoes off. You check your ticket. You pay for another ticket. These are checked.
Then you exit. There is a bus for Palestinians. There is VIP travel too. The kindness of strangers, once more, becomes paramount. A shuttle bus connects the terminals across the bridge. VIP fast-track services are offered. Opening hours/closures can change with security conditions.
Once through, I took a taxi to Amman. A lovely man, he drives me a bit of the way. The landscape is quite gorgeous. He pauses, pulls over. Nothing wrong, he goes in. He buys water, not only for himself. He hands one over and then throws an empty out the window. Onwards to Amman, there it is, the hotel.
It was a Thursday. It offers its unique sensory delights and local norms.
You can smell cardamom-forward Arabic coffee, grilled flatbread, and pastries at kunafa shops.
You can hear the prayer rolling out of the Grand Husseini Mosque. You hear the rumbles of car engines and car horns as you shuffle hurriedly across the road.
You can walk fast or slow through streets laced with shops and haggling for a potential sale of the latest and greatest item. The steps and the slopes are brutal for many. Your stamina determines your slope capacity.
The city is lined with sand-coloured houses and shops along the hillsides above the souks. The Nymphaeum/Roman Theatre–Hashemite Plaza is a brief walk away, on the premise that you do not get lost.
The tastes of Amman are the kiwis (with the skin for me), falafel, hummus, the best Arabic coffee you’d had in your life, dates, figs, pears, shisha, and more. Mansaf (lamb with jameed over rice), maqluba, musakhan, and mint lemonade are widely loved local staples.
The visit to the Middle East took on a less interrogatory feel. I felt relaxed in Israel. I was not accustomed to the heat. I felt very relaxed in Jordan. Some footnotes, essential items to bring into the travels where more uncertainty and bargaining of time exists in the 21st century. I had some technology breakdowns and difficulties right at the end of travels, after 6 weeks all over Europe and some of Eastern Europe. These became issues. Things to bring:
A burner phone or extra phone.
A power bank.
Local currency in cash.
Backpack.
Phone plan with data everywhere.
Lessons learned. These do not have to be reasons for anxiety. However, they can be essential for getting around more easily if technology fails. Do not panic: Think, and then emotionally comfort those who are with you if necessary. Breathe: Life happens. One lesson from the 7 weeks of travel through Europe, some of Eastern Europe, and some of the Middle East.
A central place for anchoring time and place is helpful, whether a hostel or a hotel. You can orient and explore from this point forward. Also, cultures change people, but people are fundamentally similar. You will make intercultural mistakes, and so learn from them. Also, Google Translate makes life easier now.
Amman Citadel tourism was down, by one tour guide’s estimate, by 95%. All visitor numbers in Jordan drop sharply during regional tensions, particularly in the 2010s and 2020s. The “95%” figure is anecdotal. Late-2024 reporting noted steep declines and very low occupancies at major sites like Petra. I decided to go the next morning.
Ubers are cheap. Taxis are cheap. Walking is cheaper than cheap. Pick your times and places to use them. If your legs hurt or you are in a rush, consider using public transportation. Uber and Careem ride-hailing apps both operate in Amman.
Also, yellow taxis and shared “service” taxis. Ask yellow cabs to use the meter. “Service/servees” taxis run fixed shared routes, while ride-hailing (Uber, Careem, Jeeny) is typical in the capital.
If not, or if you feel like exploring, then use the legs God or Nature gave you. Amman is built a little like a city on a crumpled piece of paper, expect inclines and declines. Be ready to do some cardio, then enjoy smoking shisha. You could easily get lost in Amman.
The Citadel features the Temple of Hercules, Umayyad-era structures, an on-site museum, and a theatre, as well as the Hashemite Plaza. It’s really wonderful. Amman is a palimpsest, spanning from the Bronze Age to the present.
The Roman Theatre and Hashemite Plaza are separate sites downhill from the Citadel. On the hilltop itself are the Temple of Hercules, the Umayyad Palace complex, a Byzantine church, and the Jordan Archaeological Museum.
Several places were visited during the trip as part of ongoing travels. These will be explored as part of the interspersed travel logs from the 7th of 7 weeks of travel, with a more exploratory and less work-oriented emphasis during them.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
In this dialogue, Scott Douglas Jacobsen and Rick Rosner debate whether algorithms adequately describe the universe. Jacobsen begins with the standard definition of an algorithm as a step-by-step, finite process like a recipe. Rosner counters that the universe does not follow strict routines but operates through emergence—patterns forming from possibility rather than predetermined rules. They compare laws of physics to contours shaped by statistical dynamics and symmetry, not rigid instructions. Rosner emphasizes counting numbers as emergent from discrete macro objects, while quantum systems can blur definitions. Their exchange highlights the tension between algorithmic order and emergent complexity in nature.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let us do some quick math. We have a few minutes. I want to settle the “algorithm” question by starting with a standard definition and then contrasting it with how physical laws and emergence work.
An algorithm is a finite, step-by-step procedure for solving a problem or completing a task. It is like a recipe in that it specifies an ordered sequence of operations. The key points are finiteness, determinacy at each step, and an input–output mapping.
Rick Rosner: Right. However, the universe does not have rules in the sense that an algorithm does. The universe does not follow a routine. It operates according to what is possible at any given moment. What happens is what can happen—emergence, in other words.
Jacobsen: So you are saying the laws of physics are not really rules in the strict sense?
Rosner: The universe is emergent. I’ve said this many times. The things we see aren’t rigidly predetermined. They unfold. Think of leaves falling from a tree: you might expect them to drop uniformly, but instead they swirl, get caught in currents, and settle in irregular patterns. That’s emergence in action.
Jacobsen: But we do have laws of physics, which are highly regular. I think of them more as contours than commands. They emerge from deeper principles—statistical dynamics, symmetry, and consistency. They’re not step-by-step rules like an algorithm. They’re looser regularities that arise from what is possible.
Rosner: Take numbers. The set of counting numbers—1, 2, 3, and so on—emerges naturally from the fact that macro objects are discrete. A rock isn’t 1.3 rocks. At the scale of ordinary objects, it makes sense to count in whole numbers. At more minor scales, of course, things can be divided, and in physics, some properties are continuous while others are quantized. But the everyday discreteness we observe is an emergent fact of reality, not an algorithm written into the universe.
Our system of counting is highly consistent until you get into very advanced mathematics, where you encounter Gödelian problems about proving consistency. But at the basic level, counting numbers and the operations on them are highly consistent and non-contradictory. They show up for the same reasons: consistency and non-contradiction. You have objects in the world that exist in whole number quantities, because it would be inconsistent and contradictory to have, say, one and a half protons.
Now, you can talk about “one and a half protons” in a fuzzy, quantum-mechanical sense. In an incompletely defined system, you can set things up so that you don’t know exactly how many particles are present. But once the system is defined sufficiently, objects appear in whole-number quantities.
I don’t know. But I don’t really see how the concept of an algorithm applies to that kind of emergent development of the universe.
Anyway, I’ve got to go to the gym.
Jacobsen: Enjoy the gym. I’ll ask different questions tomorrow. Happy 19-millionth session.
Rosner: Thanks, bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
Rev. Dean “Dino” Dimon (76), priest at Annunciation Greek Orthodox Church in Avon/Avon Lake, Ohio, was arrested in Ohio’s 2025 Operation Next Door crackdown for soliciting prostitution. He was placed on administrative leave by the Metropolis of Pittsburgh.
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Rev. Protopresbyter Dean “Dino” Dimon (76), presiding priest at Annunciation Greek Orthodox Church of the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America, and resident of Avon/Avon Lake, Ohio (listed differently in official records), was arrested during a statewide human-trafficking crackdown called Operation Next Door for soliciting prostitution.
The hierarch of the Metropolis of Pittsburgh is Metropolitan Savas (Zembillas). Metropolitan Zembillas, as part of GOARCH, is under the Ecumenical Patriarchate of Constantinople (Patriarch Bartholomew I).
Law enforcement conducted Operation Next Door as a statewide human-trafficking crackdown. It was announced Sept. 29, 2025. There were 135 arrests. 103 “johns” were charged with engaging in prostitution solicitation and 32 were given felony arrests, e.g., promoting or compelling prostitution, seeking sex with a minor, and drug offenses. Authorities reported: 67 trafficking survivors were referred to health and social services. More than $62,000 in assets were seized.
Nine search warrants were executed in Toledo, Cleveland area, and Akron area, including massage parlours. In Northeast Ohio, warrants included raids at Green Massage Spa (16210 Madison Ave., Lakewood), Dandelions Promise Foot Spa (12736 Lorain Ave., Cleveland), and U Mei Spa (12410 Lorain Ave., Cleveland), as well as a Lakewood residence.
From those Cleveland-area parlors, more than $30,400 was seized. Additional warrants in Toledo included Sky Spa (135 S. Byrne Rd.), Asian Healthy Massage (325 W. Alexis Rd.), and Asian Massage (5333 Secor Rd.). From those Toledo businesses, $32,000 was seized.
Allegations specific to Dimon come from the arresting unit, the HEAL Task Force (Huron, Erie, Ashland, Lorain counties). Dimon self-identified as a priest of the Annunciation GOC. Purportedly, Dimon had acknowledged another prior prostitution solicitation.
The Greek Orthodox Metropolis of Pittsburgh stated, upon hearing of the charges, administrative leave was applied to Father Dimon. He was removed from all pastoral and ministerial duties. The Metropolis said he is on leave “while the justice system takes its course.” Presumably, administrative leave will be retained while the legal process continues.
WKYC, The Independent, and local stations, have covered this case. Media reports quote the Metropolis’ statement and the AG figures. They note that Dimon’s arrest was part of a broader crackdown including other professionals (such as teachers and a federal defense attorney).
Prosopon Healing’s Orthodox Church Sexual Misconduct Database identifies this case as Incident 1261. For more information, see here:
https://www.prosoponhealing.com/public-orthodox-sexual-misconduct-d/dimon%2C-dean.
Another case existed several years ago within Ohio of a deceased priest.
Rev. Anthony P. Sarris, long-time Greek Orthodox priest at Annunciation Greek Orthodox Cathedral, Columbus, Ohio. During 1979–2011, the hierarch was Metropolitan Maximos (Aghiorgoussis).
A female parishioner, Maria Dickson, alleged Rev. Sarris of sexual molestation in the church office in 1991, where the abuse happened in 1989. He was suspended from the church. He retired in 1991. A grand jury reviewed the case and declined to indict.
Rev. Sarris died December 2, 2008.
Prosopon Healing’s Orthodox Church Sexual Misconduct Database identifies this case as Incident 1196. For more information, see here:
https://www.prosoponhealing.com/public-orthodox-sexual-misconduct-d/sarris%2C-anthony
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
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The Gender Persecution in Afghanistan Accountability Working Group (GPWG) presented a one-hour training session on the United Nations Special Procedures today. They emphasized the importance of UN “Special Procedures,” particularly in the context of Afghanistan. The webinar focused on specific UN mandates and their impacts on Afghans. This is a particularly significant time for the Afghan people. Gehad Madi, the Special Rapporteur on the Human Rights of Migrants, was referenced in addressing the forced returns of Afghans from Iran and Pakistan. Other mandates were also highlighted in the session, including those of Gina Romero, Special Rapporteur for the Freedom of Peaceful Assembly and Association; Farida Shaheed, Special Rapporteur for the Right to Education; and Rosemary Kayess, Special Rapporteur for the Rights of Persons with Disabilities.
Human Rights Defenders were given a spotlight too, e.g., the Special Rapporteur on the situation of human rights defenders, Mary Lawlor, whose interventions include preventing the refoulement of at-risk HRDs. In total, as noted, there are approximately 60 Special Procedures, comprising 46 thematic and 14 country mandates. Afghanistan has a recurring agenda item across thematic mandates.
Mandates being domain-specific can intersect with other ones. In this, submission to Special Procedures can be joint across mandates, e.g., a human rights defender who is also a migrant woman with a disability. Joint communications remain a standard practice.
Civil society can help Special Procedures with letter submissions. These provide the basis for international pressure on governments and other actors. These can produce formal UN communications. If a letter is submitted, then precise facts, documented harm, and requested action will be necessary. Privacy concerns can be flagged. Communications remain confidential up to 60 days before publication in the Special Procedures database. You can submit to an online portal (spsubmission.ohchr.org), email a relevant mandate holder, or post to the OHCHR in Geneva. Special Procedures then convert credible submissions into allegation letters, urgent appeals, or letters concerning draft laws and policies.
An example provided on the webinar was a Joint UN statement on forced returns. UN experts condemned mass forced returns of Afghan nationals and warned states against refoulement on July 18, 2025. Several mandates were jointly issued. Press statements like this become advocacy tools. Domestic lobbying can follow.
The Human Rights Council meets three times per year. HRC 60 ran from September 8 to October 8. Afghanistan fit thematically and under country discussions. NGOs can gain access to the HRC through ECOSOC’s consultative status. If they do not have this, then they can partner with an ECOSOC-accredited NGO to become accredited via the NGO. Under session guidelines, video statements are permitted. The speaker formats can vary. Some include interactive dialogues with a Rapporteur or with the High Commissioner; general debates are also permitted. Either format allows brief NGO statements. The speaking time permitted is approximately 90 seconds. There are limited slots available on a first-come, first-served registration basis via the OHCHR online system.
Outside of these core moments of voicing issues, side events are hosted within the UN, which can be booked via the HRC NGO channel to spotlight niche issues and invite delegations. Bilateral meetings with mandate holders on the margins are common. Some issues trigger pushback, e.g., select LGBTI topics.
For the issues of theocrats, including the Taliban, there are direct and indirect pressure tracks. Direct tracks include Special Procedures writing to de facto authorities. Indirect tracks include mobilization of third-country governments to condition engagement and to protect Afghan refugees, e.g., from refoulement.
UNAMA, the United Nations Assistance Mission in Afghanistan, was also mentioned during the webinar. It was created in 2002 by UN Security Council Resolution 1401. Unlike Special Procedures experts, who are independent and appointed by the HRC, UNAMA is a political mission of the UN Secretariat mandated by the Security Council. It monitors and reports on human rights in Afghanistan, and its advocacy is informed by its findings.
Other areas of concern and focus included the sale and sexual exploitation of children, armed conflict, and the rights of the child. These are addressed through Special Procedures such as the Special Rapporteur on the sale and sexual exploitation of children, as well as related UN mechanisms like the Special Representative of the Secretary-General for Children and Armed Conflict and the Committee on the Rights of the Child.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
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Tyler James Robinson (born April 16, 2003) is a 22-year-old Utah resident from Washington, Utah. He is a third-year student in the Electrical Apprenticeship program at Dixie Technical College and previously attended Utah State University for one semester (Fall 2021) as a pre-engineering major. He also earned concurrent enrollment credit through Utah Tech University during his high school years (2019–2021).
He was born on April 16, 2003. His pronouns are he/him. He had no involvement with the Center for Anticipatory Intelligence. He was not a student at Utah Valley University in any capacity. Those are some basic biographical facts that have been confirmed.
On September 10, 2025, at Utah Valley University, during an outdoor event, Robinson allegedly shot and killed conservative Christian activist Charlie Kirk. Prosecutors say he spent more than a week planning the attack, based on text messages. The weapon was a Mauser .30-06 bolt-action rifle with a mounted scope, and investigators recovered engraved shell casings near the campus. Security reviews later noted the event had no drone or rooftop surveillance, only about six campus police present, and no bag checks or metal detectors.
During the evening of September 11, there was a peaceful surrender at the Washington County Sheriff’s Office. Robinson’s family and a retired detective helped coordinate the move.
Files have been charged on September 16, 2025, in the Utah 4th District, before Judge Tony Graf. There was a county press conference. He was charged with aggravated murder (capital felony) under Utah Code §76-5-202. Also, he was charged with a felony discharge of a firearm causing serious bodily injury, obstruction of justice (two counts), witness tampering (two counts), violent offence in the presence of a child (misdemeanour), and victim-targeting enhancement (political expression).
The prosecution’s stance is for the death penalty by the Utah County Attorney. The county has posted formal charges. He has been held without bond. The next hearing is scheduled for October 30, 2025. The defence team is led by Kathryn Nester, then Michael Burt and Richard Novak (admitted pro hac vice).
There was a DNA “match” on the rifle trigger reported by the county attorney, though filings phrase it as “DNA consistent with Robinson.”
If the intent is capital punishment or killing by the state, then aggravated murder is capital-eligible. If it is not eligible for capital punishment, then there will be sentencing for life without parole or 25 years to life.
For the felony discharge of a firearm, this is elevated to 1st-degree if serious bodily injury resulted. In addition, the victim-targeting enhancement did include selection based on political expression.
Some footnotes of commentary have highlighted UVU security gaps, including the lack of rooftop coverage and drones, as well as limited staffing.
Charlie Kirk was declared dead at the hospital.
Several unknowns remain. Prosecutors allege political targeting. We do not know the deeper motive of Robinson if any. Speculation asserts lone action. Possible collaborators remain unconfirmed. Forensic evidence may face challenges.
His mental health status may or may not play a role in sentencing. Federal charges or appeals could alter case trajectory. Jury selection may matter. Disclosure battles may matter. Plea strategy may present open questions. As of September 30, 2025, many details remain unresolved in the Charlie Kirk murder case.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
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Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
Mahmoud Abbas and Benjamin Netanyahu are territorial and cultural leaders. Collective valences differ. Are there criminal charges against both? Are both on trial? Where does each stand domestically and internationally in each regard?
What has been claimed about Mahmoud Abbas?
Internationally, no International Criminal Court warrant or indictment has been put forward for Mahmoud Abbas. No defendant page exists for Abbas on the International Criminal Court website. However, non-governmental organizations have filed communications urging the International Criminal Court to investigate Abbas. The submissions are one-sided, favouring prosecutors—neither judicial warrants nor charges are presented.
Other jurisdictions and proceedings exist. Abbas mentioned “50 Holocausts,” and the Berlin police began an incitement probe. The Berlin Public Prosecutor concluded the remark had elements of incitement. The case was dropped due to immunity. No charges were filed.
In the United States, some victims sued the Palestinian Authority/Palestine Liberation Organization under the Antiterrorism Act. The United States Supreme Court upheld the jurisdiction, of the Promoting Security and Justice for Victims of Terrorism Act (PSJVTA), in Fuld v. Palestine Liberation Organization on June 20, 2025.
Antiterrorism Act suits were revived against the Palestinian Authority/Palestine Liberation Organization. Abbas was not held personally liable in this case.
The Court’s holding was unanimous. It reversed the Second Circuit and held the PSJVTA’s personal-jurisdiction hook constitutional. This allowed Antiterrorism Act suits to go forward when statutory predicates are met.
The Palestinian Authority had internal prosecutions over the 2021 killing of Nizar Banat—these targeted security officers, and not Abbas. Rights groups have criticized accountability. Rights organizations highlight that proceedings were delayed, narrowly scoped to low-ranking officers, and held in military courts. They see this as inadequate for civilian accountability.
What has been claimed about Benjamin Netanyahu?
Internationally, the International Criminal Court issued an arrest warrant. This was issued against against Netanyahu and former Defence Minister Yoav Gallant on November 21, 2024, by the International Criminal Court’s Pre-Trial Chamber I. This rejected Israel’s jurisdictional challenge. The International Criminal Court arrest warrant is active.
The crime allegations are war crimes and crimes against humanity. War crimes include starvation as a method of warfare and intentionally directing attacks against civilians. Cited documents are the Rome Statute Article 8(2)(b)(xxv) and 8(2)(b)(i) for the former; and Article 7(1)(a), 7(1)(h), and 7(1)(k) for the latter.
International Criminal Court judges emphasized there are “reasonable grounds to believe” the crimes were committed. Sufficient for warrants. Far from conviction. Warrants create arrest obligations for States Parties to the Rome Statute, although compliance often varies with political considerations.
Judges stated “reasonable grounds to believe” exist to believe the crimes were committed. These were sufficient for an arrest warrant, but not a conviction. Israel challenged these. Further, from May to July 2025, filings addressed Israel’s challenges. Warrants are active. Slovenia barred Netanyahu’s entry, citing the warrant.
Netanyahu’s recent trip to the United Nations avoided the airspace of countries that are members of the International Criminal Court. France reportedly approved overflight, but Israel’s route was still detoured. Analysts suggest that risk management and optics of avoiding States Parties to the Rome Statute were decisive.
In Israel (Jerusalem District Court), Netanyahu has an ongoing criminal trial, which opened in May 2020. There are three files: Case 1000 (gifts), Case 2000 (newspaper deal), and Case 4000 (Bezeq–Walla). The charges were fraud, breach of trust, and bribery when taken together.
Case 1000 included luxury gifts (for example, cigars, champagne, etc.) from Arnon Milchan and James Packer. Case 2000 included talks with Yedioth Ahronoth (a publisher) for softer coverage. Case 4000 involved regulatory benefits for favourable Walla! Coverage.
Prosecution rested in July 2024. His testimony began on December 10, 2024. Netanyahu pleaded not guilty. He remains on trial for corruption domestically. As of September 30, 2025, hearings are ongoing, with no verdict reached.
Where does each man sit now?
Abbas has neither an International Criminal Court warrant nor an indictment. Berlin found a 2022 remark met incitement elements, but the matter was closed due to immunity. Some United States litigation targets the Palestinian Authority/Palestine Liberation Organization as civil entities, but not Abbas.
Netanyahu has an International Criminal Court arrest warrant for war crimes and crimes against humanity, including starvation as warfare, attacks on civilians, murder, persecution, and other inhumane acts. He has an ongoing Israeli criminal trial for breach of trust, bribery, and fraud.
Benjamin Netanyahu is under an active International Criminal Court arrest warrant and is on trial in Israel; Mahmoud Abbas faces no public criminal charges or trials.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
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Scott Douglas Jacobsen asked Rick Rosner whether distinguishing between algorithmic and non-algorithmic processes is meaningful in physics and cosmology. Rosner rejected the primacy of algorithms, arguing that computation is linear while associative information is multidimensional, shaped by correlations among variables. He described the universe as compressing vast possibilities into efficient three-dimensional structures, with protons, electrons, and neutrons transmitting information. For Rosner, physical reality emerges from principles of efficiency and existence rather than fixed step-by-step rules. Algorithms can be imposed retroactively as explanatory frameworks, but they miss the improvisational, self-organizing nature of the cosmos. Emergence, not recipes, defines reality’s unfolding.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: All right, let us shift to physics. We left off abruptly in our last session because the clock caught up with us, and I would like to pick up the thread from there. When we speak of algorithms, we are usually talking about step-by-step procedures—precise instructions that define computation in a mechanical sense. Computation, in turn, seems to be one of the cornerstones of how we model information, and information itself has become a candidate for the fundamental currency of the cosmos. Given that backdrop, how do you personally make a distinction between what counts as an “algorithm” and what lies outside of it? Is the division between algorithmic and non-algorithmic processes a meaningful one in physics and cosmology, or is it more of a conceptual convenience that fails to capture how reality actually unfolds?
Rick Rosner: I do not put much stock in the term “algorithm.” Computation is linear. Associative information, by contrast, is multi-dimensional. When you have a network of associations among variables that correlate with one another, you get a multi-dimensional structure. One objective of making computation more efficient is to compress that multi-dimensional structure into fewer dimensions.
If you have a multi-dimensional structure built from correlations, most of it is empty space. These dimensions only correlate for a little while, then the rest of the axis is wasted. Our physical world is three-dimensional space. It is boiled down into what is somehow the most efficient space for containing sets of correlated variables—protons, electrons, neutrons—with information transmitted via long-range particles. You can think of this as a massive pruning of possibilities, where nature strips away redundancy and lands on the dimensions that actually matter for stability and persistence.
So what I am saying is, I do not buy the algorithm idea. When we talk about what is happening, it is emergent. It probably unfolds the same way every time, with the same physics and the same particles. But it is still emergent—not based on a predetermined set of rules. It all ends up in the same place, but what governs it is efficiency and the principles of existence, which are mainly non-algorithmic. Emergence is richer than a recipe; it is a continuous self-organization, like turbulence resolving into vortices or galaxies coalescing out of clouds of matter.
I do not love algorithms. Of course, someone could put what I am talking about into an algorithmic framework and say, “When you talk about this, you are still talking about algorithms.” But to me, that is a retroactive imposition of language. You can always shoehorn complexity into step-by-step instructions after the fact, but that does not mean the universe itself is running those steps. It is like writing sheet music for a jazz improvisation—the notation captures an echo, not the real process.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
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Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How do you distinguish energy and matter in an informational framework?
Rick Rosner: I do not really know. For me, it always goes back to macrostructures—things big enough to have permanence: stars, galaxies, planets, the large-scale structure of the universe. You can describe most of the physics of macrostructures in terms of electrons, protons, and neutrons. You can also account for most of the energy. Matter has kinetic energy, but energy in itself—massless or nearly massless stuff—travels at or near the speed of light. Its energy comes from that motion: photons and neutrinos, essentially.
Jacobsen: The question was: How do you distinguish matter and energy in an informational universe?
Rosner: You could describe the physics of information storage and processing using five primary particles: protons, neutrons, electrons, photons, and neutrinos.
However, within atoms and within some of these particles, you have quarks, gluons, mesons—you have dozens of other particles that mediate interactions with the big five. As for cosmic rays, I am unsure what fraction is not composed of photons.
I am showing my ignorance here, but I would guess that for a particle to be considered a cosmic ray, it is usually something more exotic—maybe a meson or a muon—making it to Earth and decaying in our atmosphere. That is pretty cosmic.
It has the capacity to do a great deal of damage—more than stray photons or even X-rays. Well, X-rays are photons, just extremely high-energy ones. I would estimate that the fraction of energy emitted from the Sun that is not in the form of photons or neutrinos is tiny.
In stellar fusion, approximately 2–3% of the released energy is emitted as neutrinos, while the remaining energy ultimately appears as electromagnetic radiation (photons). Non-photon, non-neutrino channels—mainly the kinetic and magnetic energy carried by the solar wind—are minuscule, of order one-millionth of the Sun’s photon luminosity.
Most “exotic” particles do not stream away from the Sun in bulk. Gluons, for example, are confined: quarks and gluons are not observed in isolation at ordinary energies but locked inside hadrons (protons, neutrons, mesons).
For macro-physics, you can mostly get by with a small cast: photons and long-lived composite matter like atoms (electrons bound to nuclei made of protons and neutrons). Free neutrons are not long-lived, but neutrons bound inside stable nuclei effectively are; that is what lets macroscopic structures persist.
Photons and gravity act over long ranges, which is crucial for large-scale organization. (Neutrinos also traverse huge distances, but they interact so weakly that they rarely shape macroscopic structure.) These ingredients are enough to knit the universe into a system that can store and propagate information without invoking short-lived or confined particles. (That is a metaphor, not teleology.)
In terms of “energy vs. matter,” they are related by E=mc2E=mc2; you can transform mass to energy and vice versa in specific processes. However, they play different informational roles. Photons can travel vast distances and, by interacting with matter, change spatial structure—writing information into the arrangement of atoms and fields.
Protons, electrons, and neutrons cluster into atoms and larger structures, giving you stable media that preserve information across time. Working together, “matter carriers” and “energy carriers” allow information to be stored, moved, erased, and reused.
Matter clumps into stars and larger structures; stars then “boil down” nuclear binding energy into photons (and a small neutrino component), returning energy to their environments. Despite tremendous progress, there is still plenty we do not understand in detail—especially the turbulent, magnetized plasma that mediates much of this.
Jacobsen: In terms of the universe as an “information processor,” returning to non-computable possible universes: a recent line of work (including colleagues’ papers co-authored by Lawrence Krauss) argues that some aspects of a final theory might be non-algorithmic in a formal, Gödel/Tarski/Chaitin sense, with spacetime emerging above that layer. That framing does not negate existing physics; it proposes limits on what a purely algorithmic “theory of everything” can capture.
Rosner: I do not love that either. The universe forms associations when a couple of protons fuse into deuterium. When two deuterium nuclei fuse to form helium, they form an association. They are not literally “calculating.” You could argue it is a kind of computation—that when two nucleons get close enough together, they fuse into a heavier nucleus.
That could be framed as a computation: “these conditions were met, therefore fusion occurs.” However, to me, it feels more like an association or correlation, rather than a computation. The universe is a correlation engine, which is evocative, since artificial intelligence is also built as a set of correlation engines. Bayesian probability is essentially the mathematics of correlation.
Jacobsen: If we change the framing away from computation and algorithms—or away from “non-computation” and “non-algorithmic embedding of reality”—then could we reframe the kinds of operations computers do as being embedded within a larger associational network? That is an open question, and I do not know where it leads.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
My day in Jerusalem was dotted with 4.5 hours of interrogations by Israelis at Ben Gurion Airport the day prior. The first and second screening men were not highly competent, sitting under harsh fluorescent lighting with a perfunctory manner. I was unimpressed and embarrassed on their behalf. They will lie and misrepresent you. When I asked for clarification and evidence, I was provided zero documentation or reasoning. This is common.
There are problems in Arab and Palestinian profiling and targeting of some foreign activists. Israel has been criticized for this repeatedly by rights groups. You have rights, so enforce them with calm persistence. The price of denying invasive treatment is refusal of entry. You do not have the same rights in a courtroom as in an airport. Security does not require providing detailed reasons or proof of suspicion.
You can complain and seek legal assistance if you have been treated unlawfully. At the moment, though, you are at their behest. The security staff have broad legal authority to detain, question, and search passengers in the name of security. Courts will generally support their efforts domestically.
The woman who conducted the formal interrogations—three sessions in a keypad-entrance room behind a makeshift partition on a plain desk—was competent, professional, and intelligent.
That, plus a friendly and honest demeanour, changed the prior disallowance into an allowance. I was honest. I maintained the position: If I was going to be deported, then I was going to be deported on honest terms.
I got labelled a דירוג איום: 4 מתוך 6, a “threat rating” in their internal scale. The questioning centred on whether I worked for the United Nations or if I intended to conduct interviews while travelling to or through Israel. I responded politely in the negative, given that my passport would eventually be permitted into the country, and was told, “Your luggage is by the carousel.” The zipper was 2 inches open, a silent reminder that it had been searched.
Welcome to Israel, and welcome to the Middle East, a region marked by apparent longstanding tensions, but a charming place with some of the most important and beautiful religious holy sites in the world, and excellent cuisine and people.
I met my first Jewish Ray Romano lookalike there. There are many positives, and a good sense of shared humanity is essential for navigating personal foibles in new areas of the world. That is part of learning and maturing as a global citizen.
As I travelled, there were a few landmarks, such as the Jerusalem–Yitzhak Navon railway station, upon arrival. It is the city’s sleek intercity terminal beneath Shazar Ave. and adjacent to Binyanei HaUma. The high-speed link from Ben Gurion tunnelled deep through the hills.
I started most of the real travel there at Jaffa Gate, which is the main western entrance through the Old City walls. It has direct access to the Armenian and Christian Quarters. I visited Jesus’ old purported tomb, the Golgotha, etc. It was exciting, as there was the Old City – Jewish Quarter, a southeastern district of the Old City, which was restored after 1967. It has characteristic narrow lanes and lively squares.
Another part of the Old City was the Armenian Quarter, a southwestern section of the Old City. It is centred on the Armenian Patriarchate/St. James compound. It is a quieter monastic precinct with traditional ceramics and echoes of ancient chants.
Some other bits, then it was off to the border crossing to get into Jordan to reach Amman.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
Reference: Faizal, M., Krauss, L. M., Shabir, A., & Marino, F. (2025). Consequences of Undecidability in Physics on the Theory of Everything. Journal of Holography Applications in Physics, 5(2), 10–21. doi:10.22128/jhap.2025.1024.1118
Mir Faizal, Lawrence M. Krauss, Arshid Shabir, and Francesco Marino have a new physics paper out in the Journal of Holography Applications in Physics this year. The theory posits a novel Theory of Everything scaffolding. The big idea is an extrapolation of the constraints for a possible Theory of Everything. (Repeat: This is not a Theory of Everything or a Grand Unified Theory. It is a proposal for the possible structure of a final theory, outlining potential expectations.)
A final theory should produce spacetime rather than assume it, in this theoretical scaffolding. Spacetime and quantum fields become emergent from these deeper rules and so are not fundamental to the universe. The degree to which this becomes deeper will depend on the final theory and the best-fit candidate for it.
The starting point of this new theory is to treat quantum gravity as a deeper set of rules from which quantum fields and spacetime can emerge. They make some bold starting points. John Wheeler’s “It from Bit” or pure computation is rejected outright as fundamental. This has significant implications for many theoretical constructs trying to implicate computation as foundational. It has implications that extend beyond the direct interpretation of the statement.
The authors posit that any candidate quantum-gravity theory can be cast as effectively axiomatized, an algorithmically formal system. It has a finite or at least recursively enumerable list of axioms and computable inference rules. Spacetime and quantum fields becomes a derived construct. All within the larger aforementioned system. Some points of contact are Gödel, Tarski, and Chaitin. What did they show?
Gödel proved: If any formal system is consistent and powerful enough to encode arithmetic, then factual statements exist in the intended interpretation, but cannot be proved within that system. No algorithmic system can be consistent and complete.
Tarski showed that a system cannot internally capture its own notion of truth. Truth must be handled in a “larger” language. Chaitin showed that some actual mathematical facts are beyond proof because they are too complex. These together address incompleteness, the requirements of a larger context for attaining the truth of a system, and the concept of truth in mathematics beyond proof due to complexity: incompleteness (Gödel), a larger language (Tarski), and complexity (Chaitin).
If the system is consistent and firm enough to represent arithmetic rules, then Gödel’s incompleteness, Tarski’s undefinability, and Chaitin’s results imply that algorithms cannot capture all truths. Truth requires a large scaffolding outside of algorithms.
The result of these is that an algorithmic ToE cannot capture all truths. The proposal is to add an ‘external’ truth predicate or an externalizing predicate to truth, to recognize true but unprovable facts that are missed by computable cores. These moves introduce a stacked explanatory system, ranging from non-algorithmic understanding to computable laws of quantum gravity, to an emergent spacetime and matter.
Therefore, the first step is not reducible to computation, but it does lead to computation. Science maintains its integrity while grounded in a non-algorithmic layer in this stack. Simulations are algorithmic. Therefore, a universe grounded in a non-algorithmic layer is not a simulation.
Exotic hypercomputation is unaddressed.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Now we are doing digital physics. All right, unitarity and no-cloning. In enclosed quantum systems, information is preserved by unitary evolution. So you cannot perfectly copy or delete unknown quantum states. No cloning, no deleting. How does that strike you?
Rick Rosner: Where does this show up? What do you mean? All right, expand the definition.
Jacobsen: You can mathematically describe quantum states. Unitarity means that in an isolated system across evolution, probability always sums to one, and no information is lost—it is a mathematical guarantee. The other principle is that even though data is preserved, it cannot be perfectly copied or destroyed. You cannot make a clone. That is interesting.
Rosner: So, where do these situations and issues show up?
Jacobsen: Cryptography, black hole physics, and quantum computing.
Rosner: Okay.
Jacobsen: What are your thoughts on this from a cosmological perspective?
Rosner: I do not know. I have not thought about this aspect. Quantum mechanics is about the flow of information, but that information is always incomplete. In its incompleteness, it is a set of probabilities. Any quantum system you examine is not deterministic—probabilities of future outcomes describe it. Even that probability set is fuzzy because you are not entirely sure what system you are dealing with, unless you go to great lengths to characterize it completely. You can design experimental systems where the probability sets are pinned down because you have controlled the experiment precisely. However, overall, what you are describing sounds like quantum behaviour in general: uncertainty, incomplete knowledge, and systems defined by limited information.
Jacobsen: We can add another piece to that and make it more robust. There is a finite information capacity to any region of spacetime. There is a maximum number of bits in a bounded spacetime volume.
Rosner: Yes, that is one example, the event horizon.
Jacobsen: But more generally, any volume of spacetime has a finite information capacity. It is not infinite. Even black holes are collapsed matter in IC—extremely dense, but not infinite—as opposed to the old idea of singularities.
Rosner: Here are the issues I think matter. For the universe to function as an information processor, it needs a way to dispose of entropy. I do not believe the universe has constantly increasing entropy; it is the opposite. The universe tends to increase information.
Its physics allow it to sequester entropy. Closed systems obey the rule of increasing entropy, but most of the macro-universe is not closed. Our planet, our solar system—these are open systems that can easily dispose of waste heat into space. Waste heat is entropic. If you can radiate it away, you have negentropy—an increase in order, which we see. Electromagnetic radiation loses energy as it travels billions of light-years.
That lost energy translates into a slight reduction in curvature in space, which contributes to the net information in the universe. Over tens of billions of years, that means a more ordered universe.
Burnt-out galaxies collapsing and later reigniting might be part of the same process: local collapse balanced by energy released to fuel expansion elsewhere. A cycle that eliminates entropy. The universe has memory. The accumulation of information is the opposite of entropy. I do not know.
Thank you for your dedication and your insane ethic.
Jacobsen: Insane?
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
The United States has a history of inequality for women, as with most countries. It has a development towards fuller equal rights in law and in practice, as with many other countries. Arguments continue in the US over representation, particularly around the current Administration. Lies or falsehoods have been spread. What is the representation of women in American administrations since the vote?
First, some background, the US had the 1848 Seneca Falls Convention and the “Declaration of Sentiments” as the first national demand for the vote. The 1868 Fourteenth Amendment Section 2 for apportionment had language of “male” in federal law signaling the exclusion of women.
The 1870 Fifteenth Amendment banned raced-based voter denial, which enfranchised many black men but not women. 1872-73 had Susan B. Anthony vote, get arrested, and then convicted. 1875 had the Minor v. Happersett Supreme Court case did not confer universal suffrage.
Several state and territorial wins built momentum between 1869-1918. Women’s suffrage procession happened in 1913 in Washington, D.C. before Wilson’s inauguration. 1917 to 1919 saw the silent sentinels or White House pickets with arrests followed by hunger strikes raising pressure.
Wilson publicly endorsed the federal suffrage amendment. The 19th Amendment was passed by Congress on June 4, 1919 and ratified August 18, 1920, then certified August 26, 1920. State challenges failed and Leser v. Garnett upheld the Nineteenth Amendment. 1975 saw VRA amendments saw language-minority protections. Important for Indigenous and immigrant women).
Based on historical information, F.D. Roosevelt (1933–45) had women represented as 1/11 and men a 10/11. Roosevelt’s history was the first woman ever: Frances Perkins (Labor). Truman (1945–49) had women at 1/11 and men at 10/11. Perkins again. Truman (1949–53) had women at 0/10 and men at 10/10. Therefore, Roosevelt was a progression and stability, while Truman was a regression.
Eisenhower (1953–57) had women at 1/11 and men at 10/11, then from 1957–61 had women at 0/11 and men at 11/11. Kennedy (1961–63) maintained women at 0/11 and men at /11. Johnson (1963–69) had women 0/14 (0%) and more men added at 14/14 (100%).
Nixon (1969–73) had women at 0/13 (0%) and men at 13/13. Nixon (1973–74) had women improve status at 1/13 and men at 12/13. Ford (1974–77) had women at 1/22 (5%) and men 21/22. Same number, smaller percentage.
Things begin to pick up in the late 1970s and early 1980s. Carter (1977–81) had women at 2/18 and men at 16/18. Reagan (1981–85) had women at 3/17 and men at 14/17. Reagan had the highest totals to that point. Reagan (1985–89) had women at 3/17 and men at 14/17.
G.H.W. Bush (1989–93) had women at 3/17 and men at 14/17. Clinter made a significant leap in equality for women’s representation in an American Administration. Clinton (1993–97) had women at 7/22 and men at 15/22.
Clinton (1997–2001) had women at 9/22 and men 13/22. Despite professional failings, Clinton had the strongest record for women’s representation to that date and the highest percent of representation until Joe Biden (2021-25).
G.W. Bush (2001–05) had women at 4/21 and men at 17/21. G.W. Bush (2005–09) had women at 5/21 and men at 16/21. Obama (2009–13) had women at 7/23 and men at 16/23. Obama (2013–17) had women at 8/23 and men 15/23.
Trump (2017–21) had women at 6/24 and men 18/24. Biden (2021–25) and women at 13/25 and men at 12/25. The first time in American history with a majority of women. Trump (since 2025; as of Sept. 28, 2025) had women at 8/24 and men at 16/24.
Which is to show, Biden had the most women representation in American history, and the trendlines are unmistakably clear. Any party administration in the US over the decades has far more significant representation of women in government, too.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): СокальINFO
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
Scott Douglas Jacobsen and Rick Rosner delve into digital physics, questioning whether the universe is computational or merely permits computation. Jacobsen frames reality through objects, processes, and operators, while Rosner argues the universe encodes information imprecisely at macro scales rather than through strict quantum events. They contrast Wheeler’s “it from bit” with a sloppier, associative model of information. The dialogue examines consciousness as either emergent information structure or illusion, echoing behaviorism’s “black box.” They also discuss jargon, popularization, and language in science and fiction, highlighting the tension between accessibility and the invention of new terms for emerging concepts.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let us build this in cosmological terms, starting from digital physics: object, process, and operator. I had the terms right. An object is a state or structure in the information substrate. A process is the unfolding of that state over time—computation, motion. An operator is a rule that maps one state or object to another, defining the inputs, outputs, and sequences of state updates—the time evolution and the precise “how.” Once fixed at a sufficient scale in a universe, operators become the laws of nature or physics.
Rick Rosner: When I hear “digital physics,” I think of the “universe as a computer” model.
Jacobsen: However, this isn’t quite that—it is closer to a precursor. Digital physics often comes back to Wheeler’s phrase “it from bit.” What you’re describing is deeper.
Rosner: I haven’t thought about it that way in some time. Information in the universe is encoded, though even that word suggests more precision than I mean. The macro-information the universe “uses” as an information processor isn’t determined at the micro level. By “micro,” I mean individual quantum events—like an electron dropping to a lower state around a nucleus and emitting a photon. The universe as an information processor doesn’t register those. It takes larger collections of events.
The universe isn’t Minecraft. It’s more like modelling clay. Here’s my standard example: almost none of the quantum-level interactions in the center of a star register in a durable way. You have fusion events—hydrogen fusing into deuterium, then tritium, and eventually helium. Later, as hydrogen is depleted, helium fuses into heavier elements, such as carbon and oxygen. These events are comparatively rare, but they leave permanent traces in fused nuclei.
Meanwhile, countless thermodynamic events occur—photons emitted and absorbed at staggering rates, quintillions per second. These interactions happen, but they leave no record.
But those quantum events mean nothing informationally. They leave no trace. A photon doesn’t even have a chance to share information with the universe until it escapes from the Sun’s surface. Energy created by fusion at the Sun’s core takes thousands to hundreds of thousands of years to reach the surface. Most photons transmitting that energy are absorbed and re-emitted countless times, never escaping or leaving a permanent trace. This is brutal for the idea of “it from bit” in a computational universe—or a digital universe.
It suggests that the universe’s encoding of information happens at a macro or super-macro level, and that it’s associative and imprecise. There’s no strict code in our minds—or in the universe—for something like “orange” as a colour. Instead, it’s known through a web of associations. When enough stimuli overlap, “orange” emerges as part of what you’re perceiving. The universe runs sloppily. Our minds do too: they rely on tacit, imprecise, associative understanding rather than strict coding.
Jacobsen: What if the universe isn’t computational at all, but computations happen within it—like we can perform them with machines? In this view, the universe isn’t computation expanded; it’s non-computational but permits computation.
Rosner: I don’t know, because I haven’t thought in those terms for decades. I’ve always assumed the universe is built from information and processes information. That assumption allows for a structure—hidden from us—that preserves information and keeps the universe from dissolving into chaos. It’s similar to how our brains make consciousness possible. We experience consciousness through our minds. We live inside our minds.
But perhaps our minds are illusions. Maybe we shouldn’t think in terms of “mind” at all, but only of how the brain presents information to itself.
Without resorting to the idea of “mind,” you could still frame mental information as an information structure—not independent, but distinct from the connectome, the brain’s wiring. Or you could call that whole program nonsense and say, ‘We are our brains.’ We’re fooled into thinking we have minds by the way the brain processes information. In that sense, we—our experience of being selves—are no more “minds” than food delivery robots have minds. Consciousness could be a convenient shorthand, but it may also be an illusion. Physics, neuroscience, and the world could be fully described without resorting to “mind” or “consciousness.”
That argument has a precedent. Behaviourism in the 1930s treated the brain as a black box. Too complex to comprehend, researchers ignored the inner workings and focused solely on the input and output. Stimulus in, behaviour out. No speculation about what happened inside the box.
The universe could be like that: soulless, fundamental physics. It contains information we can extract, but it doesn’t“process” information. Its job is only to exist according to physical laws. As beings who process data, we can find patterns in it, but that has nothing to do with the universe’s nature. That’s possible. Not a view I like, but possible.
And, as I’ve said many times, quantum mechanics cuts against that. It’s so much a theory of information.
Jacobsen: There’s a tendency among “big thought” people to take a sweeping idea, dress it in jargon, and elevate it to capital-T Truth.
Rosner: Someone just told me about reading a PhD thesis—so thick with jargon it was unreadable. Some disciplines, depending on the school, get lost in that. Specialists often communicate only through dense terminology, which is unintelligible to outsiders.
Then you have popularizers. Every field has them. In physics, they take brutal math and theory, strip them down to essentials, and present them to the public in ways that are accessible and engaging.
Jacobsen: People have different tendencies.
Rosner: It’s a common tendency. I enjoy physics, and I’ve coined a few terms myself. I’m also writing a near-future novel, which requires balance. A convincing near future needs new terms, but too many can make writing unreadable. Anthony Burgess faced this in the 1960s with A Clockwork Orange. The novel, narrated by a young thug named Alex, is drenched in slang. Alex and his gang call themselves “droogs”—from the Russian word drug, meaning “friend.” The slang reflects a Cold War scenario in which Russian cultural influence is perceived as corrupting British youth.
It’s tough to wade through the language, but the book remains deeply satisfying, and Stanley Kubrick’s film adaptation is excellent. In that case, the heavy slang had a purpose.
So, yes, if you want to explore big ideas, you sometimes need shorthand, even coined terms. In my novel, set in the near future, AI and neural implants play central roles. Consciousness is close to being replicated. But the word“consciousness” is long and unwieldy. Its plural—“consciousnesses”—is worse. So in the book, people in the field call it “C.” Much shorter.
I also imagine that the specialists in this future will be called “Sengineers”—short for “consciousness engineers.” That’s less clumsy than spelling the whole phrase out. Maybe in time there’d be an even shorter word. The trick is walking the line: avoiding pretentious jargon while still inventing terms to express genuinely new ideas.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10
Irina Tsukerman is a human rights and national security attorney based in New York and Connecticut. She earned her Bachelor of Arts in National and Intercultural Studies and Middle East Studies from Fordham University in 2006, followed by a Juris Doctor from Fordham University School of Law in 2009. She operates a boutique law practice specializing in national security. She serves as President of Scarab Rising, Inc., a media and security strategic advisory firm. Additionally, she is the Editor-in-Chief of The Washington Outsider, which focuses on foreign policy, geopolitics, security, and human rights. She is actively involved in several professional organizations, including the American Bar Association’s Energy, Environment, and Science and Technology Sections, where she serves as Program Vice Chair in the Oil and Gas Committee. She is also a member of the New York City Bar Association. She serves on the Middle East and North Africa Affairs Committee and affiliates with the Foreign and Comparative Law Committee.
In this interview with Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Tsukerman examines the fallout from Charlie Kirk’s assassination, emphasizing the still-unclear motive and the pattern of online radicalization among young men on platforms like Discord. She cautions against collapsing Antifa, sovereign-citizen rhetoric, and broader left–right extremism into a single narrative, and criticizes memorial rhetoric that drifted into conspiratorial tropes. Tsukerman urges a rule-of-law response, de-escalation, and evidence-based reporting, rather than martyrdom politics. Her analysis situates the case within a larger ecosystem of disinformation, opportunism, and grievance amplification that accelerates real-world risk.
Interview conducted September 26, 2025, in the afternoon Pacific Time.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: All right, round two of “right fight, wrong turn.” This one was sparked by the assassination of Charlie Kirk by Tyler Robinson, age 22—an ongoing legal case. The reactions were swift. Jimmy Campbell was fired, then reinstated three days later. There are now proposals to erect statues of Charlie Kirk as a martyr for the MAGA cause. This is more than just a Turning Point USA moment—it is a national Turning Point moment. What are your thoughts on the murder and the reactions?
Irina Tsukerman: We still do not know why Tyler Robinson committed the crime he did. There has been speculation about whether he aligned with the Groypers or with Antifa. Antifa is not a centralized organization but rather a loose coalition of extremists who claim to fight fascism. Some are radical left-wing activists, not consistently opposing authoritarianism. Many became visible during the George Floyd protests and the COVID era, especially in Portland—defying authority, calling for the defunding of the police, building enclaves of resistance, and acting as more militant versions of Occupy Wall Street, but without a coherent philosophy beyond anarchism and nihilism.
It is unclear where Robinson fell. He reportedly admired Nick Fuentes’s followers at one point, but later showed interest in more left-wing groups. He was in a relationship with a transgender individual, though it is uncertain whether that factored into his attack on Charlie Kirk. He allegedly inscribed political slogans on his weapon, but much remains unknown. What is clear is that he spent a significant amount of time on Discord, a platform where many radicalized individuals gather to share grievances and engage in illicit activities.
Jacobsen: You mentioned radicalized individuals. Is it fair to say they are primarily young men?
Tsukerman: Very fair. There are exceptions, but the trend skews heavily toward young men. Consider Jack Teixeira, the U.S. airman who leaked classified documents on Discord—he was immersed in that same environment. Robinson fits the broader pattern of young men drawn to radical forums.
He was not an incel, since he was in a relationship, and we do not know if he was a misogynist. However, we do know he had fringe interests, such as the furry community, and was reportedly obsessed with pornography. He spent significant amounts of time consuming disturbing content, which likely worsened his psychological instability and fueled violent, nihilistic tendencies.
As for Charlie Kirk, he was not just an activist; he was deeply embedded in a political movement. Tucker Carlson was reportedly one of his mentors, having known him since the age of 18, and had donated $1 million to his organization. Carlson became one of the most influential voices shaping Kirk in recent years, particularly in the years leading up to his death. Carlson was a fixture at group events, pushed J.D. Vance’s rise to the vice presidency, appeared on Kirk’s memorial broadcast, and gave a controversial speech at the memorial itself.
At least 200,000 people attended the memorial speech. Tucker Carlson’s address included a reference to “hummus eaters” being responsible for the killing of Jesus. That was strange on multiple levels. Historically, hummus recipes first appeared in Egypt, centuries after they were introduced in Roman Judea, not in the region where Roman authorities executed Jesus. They certainly were not eating hummus. The reference was clearly meant to target Jews. Carlson later attempted to clarify by claiming he meant the Pharisees, but if that had been his intention, he could have stated it directly. Anyone familiar with scripture would know who the Pharisees were.
The remarks sparked outrage in the Jewish community, drawing comparisons to classic antisemitic tropes from church history and even to Mel Gibson’s controversies. More right-wing Christians, especially those leaning toward Christian nationalism, defended Carlson, claiming nothing was wrong with his statement and arguing that even Saint Paul’s actions could be seen as antisemitic. That criticism of Paul—that he created hostility toward Jews to unify early Christianity—has been made by scholars. However, Carlson showed no such theological nuance. His words reflected crude tropes, not informed debate about Christian origins.
More disturbing than the “hummus” remark was that Carlson seemed to compare Charlie Kirk to Jesus. That kind of messianic framing is dangerous. It fed into J.D. Vance’s rhetoric, where he suggested that “they” killed Kirk, not Tyler Robinson alone. “They” being the political left, supposedly conspiring together. Despite investigations uncovering no evidence of co-conspirators, this idea persisted. Figures like Stephen Miller claimed the entire Democratic Party should be seen as a domestic terrorist organization. Donald Trump went so far as to designate Antifa as a terrorist group, despite lacking the legal authority and despite Antifa not having a formal organizational structure.
Meanwhile, voices on both the far right and far left have blurred Antifa’s identity. Some equate it with violent groups that created resistance enclaves in Seattle and Portland. In reality, antifascist movements trace back to communist parties in Germany and the Soviet Union, including the Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee in the USSR. The legacy is complex, but conflation serves today’s political agendas more than historical accuracy.
The Jewish Anti-Fascist Committee, which consisted of Jewish communists opposed to the Nazis, met an unfortunate end under Stalin. Many people today do not know this history or where the term “Antifa” actually comes from. It has since been misused, even by those who first adopted it. The original struggle was essentially a political battle between communists and Nazis, not a principled fight against authoritarianism in all forms. Now the label has been adapted by radical activists, often violent, who use it without understanding the history.
This failure to distinguish between the original meaning and today’s usage has fueled conflations in the aftermath of Kirk’s death. In response, we are seeing proposals such as minting 400,000 silver dollars with his face and renaming local streets in his honour. Some municipalities have adopted these measures, but nothing on a large national scale. His wife appears to be stepping into a leadership role at Turning Point, but whether she is the face of the entire “Kirkian movement” is another question. More likely, Carlson and a broader group of conservative and pro-Trump voices, now filling Kirk’s speaking slots on campuses, will become the public face of the organization.
One overlooked point is that Trump reportedly said he thought Kirk could one day become president. The long-term strategy behind funding and grooming his organization is to prepare him for political office. When Kirk is compared to political martyrs like Martin Luther King Jr. or John and Robert Kennedy, the implication is that he might have been groomed for leadership of the conservative movement—or even for the presidency. While Kirk was a highly successful organizer and activist, he did not articulate a distinct political philosophy in the manner of someone like William F. Buckley. Still, his trajectory could have mirrored Barack Obama’s path from community organizer to national office.
Jacobsen: All right, enjoy your flight.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/27
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The Latin informatio originally meant giving form or shape—” to give form to something.” Scholastic thinkers adapted it to mean the soul being informed or “shaped” by truth or intellect. Medieval scholasticism, which dominated Europe from approximately 1100 to 1700, combined Christian theology and classical philosophy. Aristotle’s doctrine of hylomorphism holds that every physical thing is a compound of matter (the substrate) and form (the actuality or organization). In scholastic thought, the soul was often seen as the substantial form of a living body—what makes a body alive.
The idea of information was conveyed between people. Natural philosophy saw it as descriptive—something collected, catalogued, and observed. In the nineteenth century, it took on bureaucratic and journalistic meanings. Then, in 1948, with Claude Shannon, we arrived at the modern definition: information as a measurable reduction of uncertainty, quantified in bits. So, Rick, how does that history relate to what you are describing about the origins of the term’ information’?
Rosner: It really builds on the way you’ve described it—the form part of the word, the sense of giving form to something.
Information, you could argue, gives form to everything in the universe. The amount of information is proportional to the amount of definition the universe and its contents have.
In that way, it’s a lucky pairing between the word and what would become the future understanding of the word—it’s very appropriate. We’ve discussed the universe being defined by the number of particles, primarily photons and neutrinos, exchanged among the stable particles in the universe: protons, electrons, and neutrons. These interactions—
Like the “gunfight” I always reference in True Romance: everyone has a gun, everyone is shooting at everyone else. I used to call it a “Mexican gunfight,” but I should stop because that’s a racially tinged term. But the idea is that all these particle exchanges pin down the matter in the universe.
The fact that there isn’t an infinite number of exchanges means the universe contains only a finite amount of information. Each particle is incompletely pinned down—”fuzzy”—and that fuzziness is essentially its Planck wavelength. It’s a nice marriage between the word, which means “giving form,” and one of the main ways information actually works.
Much of what has survived from the ancients is probably the most innovative material they said or wrote. They had some good ideas, but often lacked solid scientific evidence. The reasoning was clever but often wrong, because they were working from so little.
Some reasoning did work because they had enough evidence. For example, Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth by measuring the shadows cast by two sticks simultaneously in different cities. He reasoned that the sun was directly overhead in one place, but not in the other, because of the Earth’s curvature. He then performed calculations based on that observation.
Eratosthenes calculated the circumference of the Earth using shadows from two cities about fifty miles apart. I don’t know how he determined “the same time” without clocks, but he figured it out and made a decent calculation.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/26
Irina Tsukerman is a human rights and national security attorney based in New York and Connecticut. She earned her Bachelor of Arts in National and Intercultural Studies and Middle East Studies from Fordham University in 2006, followed by a Juris Doctor from Fordham University School of Law in 2009. She operates a boutique national security law practice. She serves as President of Scarab Rising, Inc., a media and security strategic advisory firm. Additionally, she is the Editor-in-Chief of The Washington Outsider, which focuses on foreign policy, geopolitics, security, and human rights. She is actively involved in several professional organizations, including the American Bar Association’s Energy, Environment, and Science and Technology Sections, where she serves as Program Vice Chair in the Oil and Gas Committee. She is also a member of the New York City Bar Association. She serves on the Middle East and North Africa Affairs Committee and affiliates with the Foreign and Comparative Law Committee.
Tsukerman joins Scott Douglas Jacobsen to examine the right’s internal rifts, free-speech boundaries, and identity-based accusations. The discussion ranges from alleged responses to Charlie Kirk’s killing and the Jimmy Kimmel controversy to how “cancel culture” claims collide with private employer actions. They parse antisemitic tropes in media, obscure “Frankism” references, and the difference between criticism and defamation. Policy flashpoints include gender-affirming care for minors, fairness in women’s sports, HIV progress amid ACT’s planned wind-down, a Nova Scotia abuse case, and hardline trade/immigration proposals. The throughline: resist conspiratorial thinking, uphold pluralism, and balance inclusion with civil-liberties rigor.
Interview published September 19, 2025.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We were focusing on the Charlie Kirk–Jimmy Kimmel situation and broader Western governance challenges. Charlie Kirk’s killing is, by current evidence, most accurately categorized as a political assassination. It does not necessarily meet the definition of terrorism unless tied to a broader ideological campaign.
Domestic political assassination, as I described, is a downstream symptom of a larger issue. It has two main dimensions. First, there are subterranean corners of the online world—spaces not well captured in the mainstream—where the far right battles internally. On one side are extremists: selective Christian literalists, ethnic supremacists, or fusions of both. On the other side are hardline conservatives who may or may not tie their ideology to religion.
Charlie Kirk was seen by some as “not far enough right” for those on the extreme fringe. That tension reflects an internal struggle within the right itself.
Second, the framing of Kirk’s killing as a conflict between left and right—or even center and right—is misleading. The fight is happening within a narrow band of the right. Young men, in particular, are being informationally isolated, radicalized, and drawn into these inflection points.
Irina Tsukerman: Yes, I think that is a fair delineation. But I would add that the broader clash between the radical left and the right has contributed to this dynamic. In some ways—through a kind of “horseshoe theory”—the far right and the far left resemble each other more than they do the mainstream right or center.
For instance, many people defending the firings of those who criticized Charlie Kirk, or who expressed glee at his death, argue their response is backlash against the far left’s “cancel culture.” They contend that cancellation has swept up not only people guilty of bigotry or hate speech but also those who simply held views at odds with the hard left.
This narrative even extends to Donald Trump. His removal from major social media platforms at the end of his presidency remains highly controversial. On one hand, he was still the sitting president at the time; on the other, he had repeatedly violated platform terms of service, denied the legitimacy of the election, and contributed—at least indirectly—to the chaos of January 6 and the wave of election denial that followed.
The Biden administration’s later engagement with social media companies about enforcement of terms of service sparked legal challenges, which added to the controversy.
What began as a reasonable debate over the limits of regulating speech online has now morphed into a broader cultural and political fault line.
This also concerns the separation between government and private companies. The same people who recently promoted “free speech absolutism,” lecturing across Europe about free speech, and even hosted Nigel Farage complaining about alleged violations in the U.K.—specifically against Russian-backed personalities traveling with the sole purpose of inciting unrest—immediately shifted after Charlie Kirk’s death. They reverted to grievance narratives to justify crackdowns on free speech and expression.
This extended far beyond denouncing calls for violence against conservatives or rhetoric that bordered on justifying assassination. Some of the comments may have been provocative, but they likely did not meet the legal threshold for incitement to violence, which under the Brandenburg standard requires intent, imminence, and likelihood. Still, it is understandable why private employers, concerned with reputational risk, would be alarmed. But many of the comments that drew firings or calls for termination were not even close to that legal red line.
Some remarks were in poor taste, but not provocative; others were simply critical of Kirk and his legacy. In Jimmy Kimmel’s case—one of the most extreme examples—he was primarily critical of the MAGA movement as a whole, not of Kirk personally, and certainly did not justify Kirk’s murder. Some argued that ABC was already unhappy with Kimmel’s ratings and sought an excuse to move on; the FCC pressure and public outrage gave them cover. Still, the speed of his removal—literally before an episode taping—suggests fear and political pressure, not just contract convenience.
A broad coalition spoke out against FCC involvement: commentators from the left, like Andrew Sullivan; centrist editorial boards such as The Free Press; mainstream outlets like The Wall Street Journal; center-right Democrats like Noah Smith; Republicans outside the MAGA faction; and libertarians, including Reason magazine and the Cato Institute. With such a wide range of defenders, it is clear that the intervention by the FCC—and by Trump-aligned circles seeking to suppress criticism of Kirk—went far beyond ordinary debates about whether “language is violence.”
This was about protecting a cloistered political circle, defending its own interests through obvious double standards, grievance politics, and expectations of special treatment, rather than any principled reasoning about speech.
Critics of Kirk or the MAGA movement have been mischaracterized as people celebrating his death or calling for violence. This conflates First Amendment rights with private companies’ decisions to fire employees—or being pressured to do so—which is not the same thing.
Second, there is now an extremely sycophantic attitude within MAGA circles, essentially demanding total conformity in mourning Kirk. Anyone who does not grieve publicly and enthusiastically is accused of disloyalty. Some observers mocked this by posting memes comparing it to North Korea in 2012, when mourners were reportedly arrested for not appearing sufficiently emotional after Kim Jong-il’s death.
This expectation of performative loyalty has created thorny divisions between the right and the far right. On one side are those saying Kirk’s legacy should be defended: that he was a good person whose work advanced conservative identity and fostered public discourse. On the other side are those spreading conspiracy theories—claiming Kirk was “as bad as his critics say” and that his death was orchestrated by Jews or Israel.
Jacobsen: As one commentator warned, nearly every conspiracy theory eventually collapses into antisemitism, making Jews the scapegoat. This pattern has reappeared here.
Tsukerman: The disturbing irony is that the very faction promoting this narrative—the Tucker Carlson, Candace Owens, Mike Flynn, Jack Posobiec, Dave Smith, Ian Carroll circle—were some of Kirk’s closest allies in his final years.
Kirk continued to feature many of them prominently. Even after his falling out with Candace Owens over her public break with Trump, he hosted her as recently as last December at a Turning Point USA event. Others in that group, including Tucker Carlson and Steve Bannon, were also involved in those gatherings. In fact, Tucker Carlson is scheduled to give a keynote speech at Kirk’s memorial in Arizona.
Tsukerman: Tucker Carlson and J.D. Vance even hosted a memorial segment on Kirk’s show—ironically enough. Carlson has become the ringleader setting the tone for that sub-faction of MAGA, and Kirk’s death has revealed just how deeply MAGA is split, almost on the scale of the fissures we saw around Jeffrey Epstein.
Even within the far-right elements of MAGA—not just mainstream Trump supporters but the hardcore loyalists—there is division. Some support FCC crackdowns and demand total defense of Kirk as a “great man” whose critics are lying. Others argue that Kirk should be defended precisely because he was “exactly what his critics said”—that his legacy of extreme rhetoric is what they want remembered, and that is why, they claim, he was killed.
There has been a lot of cherry-picking of Kirk’s record to support these divergent narratives. More traditional conservatives acknowledge that his campus platforms for far-right personalities were problematic, feeding extremist currents inside MAGA. The far-right responses, though, split into two camps: one excusing everything Kirk did, denying any wrongdoing, and another embracing the most extreme aspects of his legacy. So even within the far-right there are two clashing visions, while a broader right vs. far-right divide plays out around free speech and the Jimmy Kimmel controversy.
Jacobsen: To clarify the spectrum—on the right, who counts as “mainstream,” and how far does the far-right extend? For example, have openly neo-Nazi outfits like Stormfront commented on Kirk’s death, or are they staying hands-off? I know Nick Fuentes has weighed in, but where does he fall in this spectrum?
Tsukerman: That is a useful distinction. Fuentes is firmly far-right but not necessarily the farthest extreme. Explicitly neo-Nazi groups appear to be keeping their distance, likely calculating that letting MAGA’s far-right carry the anti-Jewish conspiracy narrative benefits them without exposing themselves. Very few MAGA figures, even the most radical, openly identify with Nazi sympathies.
Interestingly, both Kirk and Fuentes had separate fallings-out with Candace Owens. For Kirk, the breaking point was not her antisemitism—he tolerated that far longer—it was her increasingly bizarre conspiracy theories against Trump and other MAGA figures.
That was the line Kirk would not cross. Nick Fuentes, interestingly, confronted Candace Owens on her antisemitism—not because he opposed it, but because he thought it was crude and ignorant. He accused her of being a “primitive antisemite,” spreading conspiracy theories that were nonsensical and disconnected from the older, more established antisemitic narratives. His argument was essentially: your conspiracies are weak, let me show you the “real” ones.
He tried to position himself as the “serious” voice of antisemitism, claiming that Owens’ narratives were amateurish. It was grotesque but revealing. Fuentes, abhorrent as his views are, can articulate them more coherently than Owens, which makes him more effective. Owens, by contrast, has become increasingly incoherent.
So neither Kirk nor Fuentes broke with Owens because of her antisemitism. Their disputes came from other issues—Kirk over her conspiracies about Trump and MAGA, and Fuentes over her lack of ideological sophistication.
Jacobsen: And in terms of where to draw the line with groups like the Groypers?
Tsukerman: Fuentes and the Groypers would not have called for shutting down Kirk’s critics outright. Publicly, they had been at odds with him on various issues. What complicates matters is that some of Kirk’s most aggressive critics overlap ideologically with Antifa-aligned factions, especially in their willingness to justify violence. The assassin himself—whether tied more closely to Antifa or Groypers—appears to have drawn from both worlds.
This shows how, paradoxically, there are areas where Antifa and Groypers converge, including their embrace of violence.
On the antisemitic side, none of these factions have drifted into the most outlandish supernatural conspiracies—the “lizard people” or similar delusions. Instead, their rhetoric remains in the “classical” antisemitic register: finance, politics, backroom deals. Still delusional, but grounded in worldly scapegoating rather than metaphysical fantasy.
Candace Owens, though, came closer to that supernatural strain. She has not gone as far as reptilian theories, but she has invoked Frankism—a bizarre 18th-century heretical movement sometimes twisted into modern conspiracy theories. That already pushes her into territory where antisemitism bleeds into the mystical.
Jacobsen: Niche, boutique antisemitism. This involves essentially someone who became an apostate from Judaism, almost like a self-proclaimed messianic figure, but in ways that are not remotely consistent with traditional Judaism.
Tsukerman: This is Jacob Frank, the 18th-century leader of the Frankist movement. He broke with Judaism and declared himself a messianic figure, blending distorted Kabbalistic ideas with a cult of personality. His movement collapsed, but it has lingered in the margins of antisemitic lore.
The irony is that Frankism is not well known—barely even among Jews, and certainly not among most antisemites. That is why Fuentes criticized Candace Owens. She dredged up obscure, exotic narratives that are far removed from conventional antisemitic tropes. They are buried so deeply in history that most people have no context for them.
Jacobsen: One more thing: the gender dynamic. When I interviewed the president of Mensa International, he pointed out that among men especially, debates often descend into “my IQ is bigger than your IQ”—a kind of intellectual chest-thumping. That is happening here too. Nearly all the central players outside Candace Owens are men.
Tsukerman: We should note Marjorie Taylor Greene—MTG. She was cited in Kirk’s texts as proof that he had become anti-Israel, which his far-right critics seized on to bolster their claim that they were “correct” about him. Kirk himself also featured her.
MTG represents the bizarre mystical end of this spectrum. She is infamous for claiming Jewish space lasers caused wildfires and that Jews control the weather. Her rhetoric is not rooted in physics or reality; it veers into quasi-naturalistic fantasy. At times she implies advanced technology like satellites, at others it is just mystical control. She oscillates between pseudo-science and magical thinking.
So MTG, more than anyone else in this circle, embodies the descent into conspiratorial mysticism—where antisemitism shifts from political scapegoating into outright fantasy.
Jacobsen: One of the tactics I have noticed is how critics sometimes move from attacking arguments to turning the individual into a type. You become the embodiment of “all the negative traits of the West.” At that point, it is no longer about debate; it is typifying, almost dehumanizing. I have learned that you do not have to take part in your own abuse. You can maintain dignity and simply step away.
Tsukerman: I have seen this play out personally. I once made a mild criticism about discussions of relocating Gazans to South Sudan. I raised concerns about the cholera epidemic there—it seemed like it would not end well for either population. In response, I was attacked as an antisemite. It is the same accusation Norman Finkelstein often receives—being labeled a “self-hating Jew.”
The irony is that when people cry antisemitism for trivial reasons, they hand a gift to actual antisemites. It allows real antisemites to claim that any concern about antisemitism is just a cover for shielding Israel from criticism. That dynamic is corrosive because it delegitimizes the fight against genuine antisemitism.
Jacobsen: There is the male-majoritarian element—ego contests among men who dominate these movements. That could be satirized, almost like Homer Simpson or Peter Griffin caricatures of fragile male ego. At the same time, the real conflict is within the right and far right, yet the collateral damage often falls on centrists and left-leaning figures.
Tsukerman: Far-right movements generally have antisemitism at their core. It is a common thread. Some far-right groups mirror have a tactic in another context. They accuse anyone criticizing Charlie Kirk, or them, of being “anti-Christian.” It is a parallel rhetorical move—weaponizing identity accusations to shut down dissent.
Jacobsen: The Groypers often camouflage themselves with progressive-sounding imagery and language, which is no accident. It is a deliberate strategy.
Tsukerman: Also, Trump just announced raising H-1B visa fees to $100,000. That effectively eliminates access except for mega-corporations and the top-tier Fortune 50 or Fortune 400 companies. In Canada, by comparison, international graduate students might pay around $10,000 annually for tuition, maybe $25,000 at most. But a $100,000 visa fee is unprecedented. People are questioning whether it is even legal.
Jacobsen: It seems their tone has shifted. Now they are calling for the U.S. to withdraw from the World Trade Organization altogether. The irony is that pulling out of the WTO would only leave a vacuum. If the U.S. abandons these multilateral institutions, it is obvious who fills the gap—China, perhaps with some European influence, like France’s recent efforts at rapid response.
Tsukerman: Even with criticisms of organizations like the WHO, membership carries advantages. Leaving the WTO or WHO hands the rule-making power to rivals.
Jacobsen: I interviewed someone for Skeptical Inquirer recently for an article on brain drain, and she made a striking point: the U.S. loses immensely when it drives away H-1B visa holders. These individuals do not just work jobs—they create whole industries, generate wealth, and redistribute economic benefits across regions, often into struggling Midwestern states. Yet those very populations often resent them.
I told reflected on the Edward Witten story—it felt surreal hearing his reasoning articulated so clearly in real time. People like Witten are once-in-a-generation figures. Restricting entry through exorbitant H-1B fees risks another “Yellow Peril”-style panic, or worse, conflating anti-China sentiment with antisemitic tropes. Anti-Asian scapegoating could easily fuse with older antisemitic narratives.
Tsukerman: The MAGA narrative about blue-collar workers is contradictory. On one hand, they argue that college is unnecessary, that trade jobs pay well and guarantee security. There is some truth—many trades are essential and resistant to automation. Yet, at the same time, they claim blue-collar men are victims of neglect and economic abandonment. They cannot have it both ways.
Anyway, I have got the draft title: Is This the Right Fight? Wrong Turn on Right (Part One). We will use this series to map the “sentimentology” of these factions. Sadly, I doubt Jimmy Kimmel will be the last target. Historically, Republicans have used federal government institutions to push back, while progressives have relied more on academia. That is why conservatives are so focused on universities like Harvard—they see them as the most powerful liberalizing institutions in the world.
Jacobsen: Thank you for your time. I will see you next Friday, hopefully with a calmer week and more rest.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/25
In this Fumfer Physics dialogue, Scott Douglas Jacobsen and Rick Rosner explore the layered nature of time. Jacobsen frames three concepts: time at quantum scales where it appears quasi-atemporal, the emergent unfolding of objective cosmic time, and the subjective, often dilatory, human experience of time. Rosner explains time as embodied in the differentiation of matter and the creation of information, comparing it to the sequential turning of pages in a book. He argues that the universe defines itself through particle interactions and their cumulative history, with the total information constrained by matter content, expansion, and entropy reservoirs.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How do you—this is for Fumfer Physics 4—how do you distinguish between the quasi- or atemporal notion of the world at very small magnitudes, and an emergent sense of time, and then the subjective sense of time we have, which has a dilatory quality? Three concepts: one, the emergent nature of time; two, the objective time embodied in the larger world apart from us; and three, our own subjective sense of time.
Rick Rosner: Let us start with the embodiment and emergence of time. Time is embodied. It is inextricably linked to the creation of information through the differentiation of matter. As matter evolves from an undifferentiated soup into distinct particles, forming relationships and clumping into larger objects, time unfolds in conjunction with this process. It is not that the process occurs inside a pre-existing framework of time. Time itself is an inextricable property of the unfolding. Imagine a sequence of pages in a book: each page is the next moment. Time is the unfolding of information at the active center of a universe. A universe has reservoirs to absorb entropy, allowing for a continuous blooming and unfolding of information, which drives and embodies the forward progression of time. All right, next question. Rotten Tomatoes.
Jacobsen: What do you think of the title Fumfer Physics, by the way?
Rosner: It is fine. Pretty funny if you know what fumfering is.
Jacobsen: I learned that from you.
Rosner: Yes.
Jacobsen: Because you do sometimes. There are numerous additions to the informational content of the universe that have been built through interactivity. The information is defined by its internal interactions and that contributes to the total information content of the universe.
Rosner: I am not sure exactly what you are asking, but I think the answer is that the universe defines itself—the space it occupies, the particles, the sharpness and scale of those particles, their interactions, and the cumulative history of those interactions. So what was the question again?
Jacobsen: Is information added to the universe through its self-interaction? So it cumulatively adds more information into parts of itself.
Rosner: There is a limit to how much information a universe can contain based on the number of particles it has. These particles, through interactions, can only define each other and their space to a certain extent. The definition of particles and space tends toward a maximum: particles, through interactions, maximize the information possible in a universe of this size. To increase definition, the universe must add more particles. The amount of information in a universe is roughly proportional to the amount of matter—the number of particles it contains. That looks like a Big Bang universe: expanding but decelerating. You can call it a flat universe—one with just enough kinetic energy to expand indefinitely, no more. An icy universe resembles this flat state. It never reaches the Big Bang’s end state of endless coasting and expansion until all stars burn out, leaving a slow, cold, empty landscape. An icy universe avoids that fate. As the universe decelerates, other galaxies from near T0 become visible as their light finally reaches us while our relative velocity slows. That is how new matter from the early universe becomes, gradually, observable.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/24
British Columbia, CANADA, September 2025 /www.in-sightpublishing.com/ — In-Sight Publishing announced the release of Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society (November 2014–June 2025) by Scott Douglas Jacobsen, a comprehensive 524-page collection of contributions to the Mega Society’s official journal spanning more than ten years. The first edition was released on September 2, 2025: https://in-sightpublishing.com/books/.
It is available on Apple Books (ISBN: 978-1-0692343-8-4). Noesis has been the forum for intellectual exchange within the Mega Society—an organization whose members theoretically qualify at the one-in-a-million level of cognitive rarity (megasociety.org).
The volume includes member contributions, featuring two forewords by Dr. Benoit Desjardins and Daniel Shea, as well as a prologue by Rick Rosner. Foreword author Dr. Benoit Desjardins, academic physician and Mega Society member, praised the project’s ambition, writing that he was “immediately struck by the ambition” behind the compilation.
The collected Noesis submissions create “a rich mosaic of high-level inquiry” across an eclectic range of genres and topics. Readers will find a diversity of views. This reflects the journal’s mission to balance intellectual rigour with human insight.
From philosophy, mathematics, and science to history and personal narratives, the compendium tackles profound questions. Recurring themes throughout the 2014–2025 submissions by Jacobsen include the search for meaning, the interplay of reason and imagination, and the role of extreme intelligence in society.
Contributors engage deeply with these subjects, but they also infuse the pages with wit, artistry, and personal perspective. The result: A chronicle of a unique intellectual community. This complex presentation serves as a record of the community.
Publication Data
Title: Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society (November 2014–June 2025)
By: Scott Jacobsen (Apple Books listing)
Publisher: In-Sight Publishing
Publication Date: September 2, 2025 (Apple Books)
Format: ePub (Apple Books)
Length: 524 pages (Apple Books)
ISBN: 978-1-0692343-8-4 (In-Sight Publishing listing)
About the Mega Society
The Mega Society is an independent society for high-IQ individuals. Dr. Ronald K. Hoeflin founded it in 1982. Hypothetically, it represents a credible membership of individuals who have scored at the one-in-a-million level on a credible experimental test of cognitive abilities—the only one of its type formerly listed in the Guinness Book of World Records. By implicit design, the society remains small. Noesis: the Journal of the Mega Society has been the official journal of the Mega Society for decades. The publication’s endurance over the years highlights the society’s mission.
About In-Sight Publishing
In-Sight Publishing is an independent imprint. It operates autonomously, without institutional attachment, to safeguard academic freedom in its work. Founded in 2014 by Scott Douglas Jacobsen with an experimental precursor in what became In-Sight: Interviews (ISSN: 2369-6885, In-Sight Publishing focuses on delivering insightful, interview-based journals and intellectual literature to a global audience. The catalogue spans a range of scholarly and creative titles. These include specialized journals to comprehensive thematic interview collections. Noesis: The Journal of the Mega Society (Nov 2014–June 2025) is the latest example of In-Sight’s dedication to preserving and promoting high-level discourse in published form.
Media Contact
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Publisher, In-Sight Publishing, Scott.Jacobsen2025@Gmail.Com.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/24
Rick Rosner: If we’re going to do Fumfer for Physics, let me quickly lay out the principles of informational cosmology.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What principles define informational cosmology? The guiding idea is that the universe processes information, and the patterns by which it does so show strong, useful parallels with how we encode, store, and transform information. Follow that line and the question of consciousness becomes unavoidable—what it is, how it relates to information, and whether an informational ontology can make sense of subjective experience.
Rosner: You don’t entirely agree with me on this.
Jacobsen: True.
Rosner: However, in an extensive, self-consistent information-processing system, high levels of multimodal real-time information processing resemble the phenomenon of consciousness. Consciousness is a characteristic of high-level information processing. It’s advantageous to the system. As conscious beings, we have feelings tied to our consciousness, and those feelings help us prioritize and navigate the world. The leading theory in brain science is that our brains evolved to help us decide what to do in every next moment, to choose the best way to situate ourselves. Consciousness and the feeling of being conscious play a role in making that system effective. Our emotions and judgments are tied to survival; they’re helpful. So even if it sounds abstract, consciousness is indeed a valuable part of an information-processing system. How we feel about ourselves, others, and the world helps us survive long enough to reproduce and raise the next generation. That’s how evolution works—we’re the latest generation in billions that perpetuated the species by reproducing. Current neuroscience suggests that your memories and everything you know are likely encoded in your connectome—the entire set of connections among your neurons via dendrites. We have around 10¹¹ neurons in the brain, each with roughly a thousand connections. Do I have my numbers right?
Jacobsen: Eighty-six billion neurons, each with one thousand to ten thousand connections.
Rosner: That’s closer to 10¹¹ neurons, each with about a thousand connections. Every connection has a tunable strength, and the entire set of connections is probably where our identity, awareness, and memories reside. So consciousness has a definite spatial structure in those connections, but also an informational structure. You could map the connections physically if you had the technology. However, the information they hold can also be represented abstractly in three spatial dimensions and one temporal dimension, with its own physics resembling that of the universe. That, in a nutshell, is informational cosmology: parallels between the physics and information processing of the universe and the physics and information processing of consciousness. They likely share characteristics. For example, the most efficient way to map the information in consciousness may be three spatial and one temporal dimension. Just as protons, electrons, and neutrons clump into structures and information travels via photons and neutrinos, you could imagine a similar structure for information in awareness. That’s informational cosmology in brief. The Big Bang theory postulates a spatially symmetric universe—every point in space looks roughly like every other—but temporally asymmetric, because each moment seems different from the last. The common analogy is that of a balloon being blown up: every point on the surface looks the same, but the balloon continues to expand. So in the Big Bang universe, you can’t easily know where you are in space, but you can always see where you are in time. That doesn’t work for a model of the brain as an information processor. Our brains handle roughly the same amount of information throughout our lives. You may know more at 60 than at 20, but the overall capacity is stable. That doesn’t match an ever-expanding Big Bang universe. A helpful model of consciousness as an information universe should be temporally symmetric. The information map of your consciousness at 30 shouldn’t look drastically different at 40; your brain’s structure at full capacity looks roughly the same year to year. That symmetry doesn’t align with a Big Bang model, where the universe appears different over time. So for most of my life, I’ve been trying—lazily, I admit—to sketch a temporally symmetric cosmology: galaxies flare, burn out, collapse, and others ignite in a rolling sequence of bangs. That rolling series of bangs seems like a better analogy.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/23
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: From an information-theoretic perspective that marries quantum mechanics with general relativity, how would you contrast a black hole with a star, an information-processing object embedded in the wider cosmos?
Rick Rosner: We do not yet have a complete definition of what information is, or the exact context needed for something to be considered “information.” However, the behaviour of objects in the universe is related to how information shapes the world.
The rules of information—which incorporate quantum mechanics and some form of general relativity—are the rules governing the creation and definition of space, matter, and energy. Therefore, you must examine how information shapes black holes and how it creates the conditions that allow stars to exist and produce radiant energy. The entire framework remains unknown, but…
The mathematics of black holes supports the hypothesis, even among traditional physicists, that the universe itself might exist within a black hole. A black hole curves space so that nothing can escape, and you see a similar kind of curvature in an expanding Big Bang universe—or a contracting one. In either case, the universe is curved back onto itself.
That shape of space is underdetermined, but it is self-contained, self-defined, and filled with information.
A black hole is essentially a concentrated mass of information. Its space is defined far more intensely by the relationships among the matter and energy within it than in the broader universe. The scale of its space and curvature comes directly from differentiation among its contents.
By contrast, most non-collapsed matter in the more expansive universe, including stars, does not create such extreme gravitational gradients.
The difference between a black hole and a star is that a black hole is essentially a universe unto itself. In contrast, a star is an object within a universe. That is the short answer.
But each—the space around it, or the space comprising it—is defined by informational relationships among the matter in the universe. You have these little “information engines,” which are basically the five long-lasting particles: photons, neutrinos, protons, electrons, and neutrons.
Of course, those particles depend on supporting particles—you cannot have a proton without its constituent quarks, or without gluons to hold the nucleus together. However, it is the five big ones and their interactions, as well as the structures they form, that build the macro objects we recognize.
Think of it like a car. You think of the body, the engine, the wheels, maybe the transmission. Those are the principal components, but in reality, a vehicle is composed of 4,500 smaller parts that are linked together. Likewise, these information engines have the obvious significant components, but the rest of particle physics supports those.
So in any reasonable information-based universe, you have these little information engines forming macrostructures. Those macrostructures differentiate the matter within the universe in a way that contains, preserves, and transmits information.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09
Scott Douglas Jacobsen recounts asking Ed Witten, often regarded as Einstein’s intellectual heir and the only physicist to win the Fields Medal, about the plausibility of white holes. Witten, during a keynote on black hole thermodynamics, compared white holes to balancing a pencil on its tip—possible in theory but statistically impossible. Jacobsen pressed further, asking how large a universe and how much time would be needed for one to form. Rick Rosner contextualized this in terms of entropy, event horizons, and informational cosmology, suggesting black holes might not seal off information completely but instead collapse into high-entropy matter or budding universes.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We can start with Ed Witten’s question. That was a dream. Literally a dream come true. I wanted to ask him one question.
Rick Rosner: Say what you asked him. First, explain who Witten is.
Jacobsen: Ed Witten is considered by many the heir to Einstein, whether or not they agree with superstring theory. His achievements in physics and mathematics are extraordinary. When there were five competing versions of string theory, he showed in one presentation that they were different aspects of the same overarching theory. He is the only physicist ever to win the Fields Medal, which is awarded in mathematics. People see him as a native speaker of both math and physics.
Rosner: So what did you ask him?
Jacobsen: There was a conference we organized through our institute. Witten spoke there as a keynote, followed by Leonard Susskind, another distinguished academic.
Witten was giving a presentation on black holes and black hole thermodynamics. At the end, he nodded to a hypothetical object—a white hole. In mathematics, it is valid, and in general relativity, it could have a physical correlate. A white hole is basically the time-reversed form of a black hole.
We have discussed white holes before, in various definitions. In practice, a white hole would look like a Big Bang explosion. Witten illustrated this with a pencil. He tried to balance it on its tip, could not, and snapped a photo before it fell over and dissipated energy. He said a white hole is like that in the universe: possible in principle, but as unlikely as balancing a pencil on its tip.
Someone asked whether a white hole is really possible or just a mathematical trick. Witten compared it to the pencil—statistically impossible, but still permitted by the laws of physics.
I followed up: If that is true, how big a universe would it be, and how much time would it take for a white hole to emerge? His simple definition was: a black hole is where everything goes in and nothing can come out; a white hole is where nothing can go in and everything can come out.
Rosner: So, the entropy of a black hole is proportional to the surface area of its event horizon. That is the defining feature: the event horizon is the spherical boundary beyond which nothing, not even light, can escape. It is the point of no return.
When two black holes merge, their combined surface area is larger than the sum of the individual areas, according to a theorem Stephen Hawking worked on. That is why surface area is central in black hole physics.
The reason is gravitational collapse. The closer you get to an object, the stronger the gravitational pull. On Earth, surface acceleration is about 10 meters per second squared. That is tiny compared to what is needed for a black hole. A black hole crams so much mass into such a tiny space that gravity becomes strong enough to trap light. The event horizon is the boundary where escaping would require travelling faster than light—impossible.
Under informational cosmology, we postulate that the speed of light is the ultimate limit.
Gravitational acceleration, no matter how collapsed the object, is not just created by the mass itself. It exists in relation to the rest of the universe. That is like Mach’s principle, which postulates that inertia is due to the motion of objects against the background of the universe. You would not have inertia without the rest of the universe to define motion against.
So, in informational cosmology, you would not have event horizons. Objects would still have entropy, but a black hole without an event horizon—since the speed of light is the ultimate limit—would always allow light to escape. It would be highly redshifted, stripped of nearly all its energy as it crawled out of the gravitational well, but information could still be transmitted in and out of the collapsed object.
The collapsing object would have most of its information squeezed out and become a ball of degenerate matter—a soup of undefined glop stripped of order. If you compressed Earth to nothing, all the structured order we see would be obliterated. That is what happens in a black hole: loss of information, loss of order, leaving behind a high-entropy object.
Unless, in collapsing, that glop somehow differentiates itself in a Big Bang–like way, generating a budding universe. Not truly a separate universe, since there are no event horizons, but a pocket within this one that builds its own information structures, looking like a Big Bang from the inside.
So, even without event horizons, you can still discuss entropy. The flow of information creates these objects.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Rick.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09
*Information from best available data circa September 21, 2025.*
Charlie Kirk was murdered.
On September 10th, 2025, at an outdoor Turning Point USA event at Utah Valley University (UVU), Orem, Utah, with approximately 3,000 people in attendance, Kirk was struck by a bullet in the neck/throat while on stage.
The shot was fired from a sniper rifle from estimated ranges of more than 100 yards to about 200 yards. Kirk was transported to a nearby hospital and then pronounced dead. ABC on-scene reporting and officials stated no metal detectors or bag checks were present. The courtyard is bowl-shaped and ringed by buildings. UVU police coordinated with Kirk’s private security.
The rifle used to assassinate Kirk was the Mauser Model 98, .30-06 bolt-action with scope, which was recovered wrapped in a towel off-campus. Ammunition allegedly contained engravings or etchings with phrases. The spent round read ““NoTices Bulge OWO What’s This?” The suspect allegedly called the engravings “mostly a big meme.”
The evidence for a single shot was no shell casings on the roof and only one spent/three unspent rounds inside the rifle, as cited by prosecutors to support a single shot. The suspect of the assassination was Tyler James Robinson, aged 22.
Robinson’s family recognized him based on the released images. After speaking with a retired deputy sheriff, Robinson surrendered. Officials reported a time lapse between the murder and the acquisition of Robinson into custody was about 33 hours.
Robinson was held without bail. His first hearing: He appeared by video. The next hearing is scheduled for September 29, 2025. Some reports indicate a special watch or suicide-prevention smock while in jail.
The criminal charges filed in Utah are aggravated murder, felony discharge of a firearm causing serious bodily injury, obstruction of justice (multiple), violent offence in the presence of a child, and witness tampering (multiple).
Prosecutors seek the death penalty. Alleged aggravators are political targeting and the presence of children. Prosecutors cited texts from a roommate:
“I had enough of his hatred. Some hate can’t be negotiated out.”
A purported note is cited beneath a personal keyboard stating, “I had the opportunity to take out Charlie Kirk and I’m going to take it.” In addition, allegations include Discord messages citing Robinson confessing before the arrest, therefore, after the murder and before custody approximately 33 hours later.
Prosecutors cited an unusual gait purportedly consistent with the concealment of a rifle, movements to and from a rooftop, plus later retrieval attempts of the Mauser Model 98. DNA on the trigger linked to Robinson.
There was a public appeal reward up to 100,00USD with the FBI asking for public photos and videos from the event. Authorities allege political targeting on prior statements. Final motive is unadjudicated.
George Zinn, 71, was arrested for obstruction after a false confession amid the chaos; later charged in a separate child-sex-abuse-material case following a phone search—no link to the homicide.
Following the shooting, UVU shut down for several days then with a phased reopening. Classes resumed the following week. Full resumption September 17, 2025. UVU says its security posture and emergency alerts are under review.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09
Distinguished colleagues, esteemed guests, and members of the broader scientific community, I welcome you to the proceedings of the fourth International Conference on Holography and its Applications at Khazar University.
We gather as theorists and experimentalists working across gravitational holography, quantum field theory in curved spacetime, and optical science. The premise of this meeting is straightforward and ambitious. When rigorous ideas are allowed to meet across subfields, they refine one another and understanding advances. Holography here is more than a metaphor. For instance, in high-energy theory, it has become a working language for unitarity, entropy, and the emergence of spacetime.
This conference is designed to keep these conversations proximate and mutually informative. Allow me to express gratitude before I begin. Our hosts at Khazar University have provided an environment where science can take precedence. The organizing community and volunteers have executed the quiet work of schedules, rooms, remote access, and the delicate choreography of microphones, slides, and discussion. To all invited speakers and contributors, your preparation makes the rest of this possible.
We are especially honoured to welcome—and thank in advance—Salvatore Capozziello, Robert B. Mann, Leonard Susskind, and Edward Witten.
Capozziello will deliver “Avoiding singularities in Lorentzian–Euclidean black holes: The role of atemporality,” a look at signature change and atemporality as routes to horizon regularization and singularity avoidance.
Mann will deliver “Doubly Holographic Quantum Black Holes,” an exploration of bulk–brane thermodynamics and the phase structure of quantum black holes in a doubly holographic framework.
Susskind, who will deliver “Observers in de Sitter Space,” an examination of physical observers (quantum reference frames) and their role in cosmological holography.
Witten, who will deliver “Introduction to black hole thermodynamics,” will provide a look at the laws, entropy, and quantum aspects that render black holes thermodynamic systems.
A few norms will help us earn the most from the following sessions. Questions should be as precise as equations, short, concrete, and oriented to the claim. Please indicate when you are offering an informed conjecture as distinct from a proven result. Speakers should foreground definitions and make explicit which approximations do the real work in the analysis.
The ideas migrate in the conference, error-correcting structures, informing gravitational reconstruction, quantum information metrics, Sharpen field theoretic intuition, and optical platforms offer analogs that can stress-test the theory. The program intentionally juxtaposes these strands to allow that migration to occur in real time, presented in Baku and around the world.
Science is international in two senses. The laws we study do not vary with jurisdiction, and the norms that allow that inquiry to flourish—openness, attribution, and respect—must travel with us. We will conduct these proceedings accordingly.
Extend collegiality across differences of approach and background; it improves the work and honours the people doing it. The most valuable outcome of any conference is not a slide deck, but a set of shared problems, clarified terms, and new collaborations. If by the close of these proceedings, we have a shorter list of confusions, a longer list of colleagues, and a few ideas, we will have succeeded. With that purpose in view, and on behalf of our hosts and organizers, may the discussions be exacting, the questions generous, and the results durable.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09
“Biologic Institute is a non-profit research organization founded in 2005 for the purpose of developing a new approach to biology. Thanks to technological advances, the life sciences have become very effective at acquiring facts. What they need now is a theoretical foundation that makes sense of these facts. Some still claim that Darwin’s theory does just that, but the ongoing struggle to make sense of genomic data (for example) indicates otherwise.
Scientists affiliated with Biologic Institute are working from the idea that life appears to have been designed because it really was designed. That’s a hypothesis, not a theory, and while it obviously has huge philosophical implications (made even more huge by the the [sic] fact it appears to be correct) it doesn’t do much for biology if left at that.”
Biologic Institute
“The Intelligent Design creationists have also put up a simulacrum, the Biologic Institute, with fume hoods and white lab coats, from which they hope to summon scientific credibility. They’ve also been fooled into thinking the appearance is the same as the substance.
Since literal Cargo Cultists aren’t a significant presence in the US, but creationists are, I suggest we appropriate this holiday and call it Intelligent Design Day. Don’t worry about going to any effort to celebrate it, though—all you have to do is pretend that you are celebrating it, just as the Intelligent Design creationists pretend that they’re doing science.”
P.Z. Myers (2007)
“Big Intelligent Design may be following the path blazed by Big Tobacco.”
Reason Magazine (2007)
After the fall of The International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (Jacobsen, 2025) and its journal Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design (PCID), around 2005, another institution emerged out of the Discovery Institute (DI) community for Intelligent Design (ID) Creationism research, the Biologic Institute (2025a)–a U.S. 501(c)(3).
Douglas Axe was the founding scientific lead of Biologic Institute in 2005 (Biologic Institute, 2025a; Discovery Institute, 2025). Established in 2005 and largely funded through grants associated with Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture; DI materials and BI’s own pages document close organizational ties (2025). Their leadership was comprised of 17 affiliates as of last listing: Douglas Axe, Günter Bechly, Stuart Burgess, Brendan Dixon, Winston Ewert, Ann Gauger, Guillermo Gonzalez, David Keller, Matti Leisola, Philip Lu, Robert J. Marks II, Brian Miller, Colin Reeves, Mariclair Reeves, Richard Sternberg, Jonathan Wells, and Lisanne Winslow (Biologic Institute, 2025b).
The established ideological grounding was ID Creationism (Cartwright, 2006). They wanted to challenge mainstream evolutionary biology primarily with appointments (Biever, 2006). The aim was to demonstrate a design perspective as producing better science than mainstream evolutionary biology while part of a larger ID Creationism covert religious culture war movement (Forrest, 2007). This was part of the “Wedge” strategy in the promotion of ID in education, public policy, and science (National Center for Science Education, 2008).
Primarily, it was active from the founding in 2005 to about the latest date of 2019 with occasional publishing into 2025, e.g., a single article in 2025 so far; therefore, a functional research space devoted to this research seems unlikely to be supportable (Young, 2021; BIO-Complexity, 2025a; The Sensuous Curmudgeon, 2021). Reporting in 2006 (New Scientist; summarized by NCSE) raised questions about BI’s lab operations and access.
Axe and colleagues published “Stylus: A System for Evolutionary Experimentation Based on a Protein/Proteome Model with Non-Arbitrary Functional Constraints” (2008) in PLOS ONE, beginning some research.
Biologic Institute launched the ID Creationism journal BIO-Complexity in 2010 (National Center for Science Education, 2010). Since 2010, BIO-Complexity has published dozens of papers across 16 annual volumes (2010–2025); publication cadence is modest compared to PCID (BIO-Complexity, 2025a). The Editor-in-Chief was Robert J. Marks II, and the founding editor was Douglas Axe (BIO-Complexity, 2025b).
The rest of the editorial board were William Basener, Günter Bechly, Michael Behe, Walter Bradley, Stuart Burgess, Russell Carlson, William Dembski, Marcos Eberlin, Winston Ewert, Charles Garner, Ann Gauger, Ola Hössjer, Peter Imming, James Keener, David Keller, Matti Leisola, Wolf-Ekkehard Lönnig, Jed Macosko, Tobias Mattei, Scott Minnich, Edward Peltzer, Colin Reeves, Ralph Seelke, Richard Sternberg, Scott Turner, Jiří Vácha, John Walton, and Jonathan Wells (Ibid.).
They aimed to test the scientific merit of ID Creationism (BIO-Complexity, 2025c). An IRS Form 990-EZ for the 2019 tax year (filed 2020) reflects modest finances (IRS, 2020). Their contact refers to the Center for Science and Culture (Biologic Institute, 2025c). In 2012, BI used a stock laboratory image in promotional material; coverage and DI commentary acknowledged the use of stock footage (Johnston, 2012; Hoppe, 2012; Klinghoffer, 2012).
Most of the funding for the Biologic Institute has been from DI (Biologic Institute, 2025a). The size of the financial contributions via ITS filings, the slow pace of publication, and the niche subject matter suggest that the research operation appears, at best, as a boutique operation that ceased physical operations many years ago. This follows the trends of ISCID, PCID, and numerous leading intellectuals of the ID movement from DI.
There is still more to review for this A Further Inquiry series.
References
Axe, D.A., Dixon, B.W., & Lu, P. (2008, June 4). Stylus: A System for Evolutionary Experimentation Based on a Protein/Proteome Model with Non-Arbitrary Functional Constraints. https://journals.plos.org/plosone/article?id=10.1371%2Fjournal.pone.0002246.
Bailey, R. (2006, December 19). Biologic Institute = Tobacco Institute. https://reason.com/2006/12/19/biologic-institute-tobacco-ins/.
Biever, C. (2006, December 13). Intelligent design: The God Lab. https://www.newscientist.com/article/mg19225824-000-intelligent-design-the-god-lab/.
Biologic Institute. (2025a). About. https://www.biologicinstitute.org/about.
Biologic Institute. (2025c). Contact. https://www.biologicinstitute.org/contact.
Biologic Institute. (2025b). People. https://www.biologicinstitute.org/people.
BIO-Complexity. (2025a). Archives. https://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/issue/archive.
BIO-Complexity. (2025c). Editorial Policies. https://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/about/editorialpolicies.
BIO-Complexity. (2025b). Editorial Team. https://bio-complexity.org/ojs/index.php/main/about/editorialTeam.
Cartwright, R.A. (2006, December 14). New Scientist Investigates Biologic Institute. https://pandasthumb.org/archives/2006/12/new-scientist-i.html.
Center for Science & Culture. (2025). About: Our Mission. https://www.discovery.org/id/about/.
Discovery Institute. (2025). Douglas Axe. https://www.discovery.org/p/axe/.
Forrest, B. (2007, July). Understanding the Intelligent Design Creationist Movement: Its True Nature and Goals. https://web.archive.org/web/20110519124655/http://www.centerforinquiry.net/uploads/attachments/intelligent-design.pdf.
Hoppe, R.B. (2012, December 18). The Disco ‘Tute’s fake laboratory. https://pandasthumb.org/archives/2012/12/the-disco-tutes-1.html.
IRS. (2020). BIOLOGIC INSTITUTE: Short Form Return of Organization Exempt From Income Tax. https://apps.irs.gov/pub/epostcard/cor/841670187_201909_990EZ_2020110417413291.pdf.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2025, August 22). The International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design and Intelligent Design Creationism. https://afurtherinquiry.substack.com/p/the-international-society-for-complexity.
Johnston, C. (2012, December 18). Intelligent design think tank’s “institute” is a Shutterstock image. https://arstechnica.com/science/2012/12/inteliigent-design-think-tanks-institute-is-a-shutterstock-image/.
National Center for Science Education. (2006, December 15). New Scientist visits the “God Lab”. https://ncse.ngo/new-scientist-visits-god-lab.
National Center for Science Education. (2010, November-December). The Latest “Intelligent Design” Journal. https://ncse.ngo/latest-intelligent-design-journal.
National Center for Science Education. (2008, October 14). The Wedge Document. https://ncse.ngo/wedge-document.
Myers, P.Z. (2007, February 15). Happy Intelligent Design Day!. Pharyngula. https://freethoughtblogs.com/pharyngula/2007/02/15/happy-intelligent-design-day/.
The Sensuous Curmudgeon. (2021, May 22). The Cosmic Aardvark Is Smiling. https://sensuouscurmudgeon.wordpress.com/2021/05/22/the-cosmic-aardvark-is-smiling/.
Young, M. (2021, May 23). Biologic Institute Closes. https://pandasthumb.org/archives/2021/05/biologic-institute-closes.html.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
The International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design and Intelligent Design Creationism
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09
“The International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (ISCID) herewith announces its formation and official launch. ISCID is a cross-disciplinary professional society that investigates complex systems apart from external programmatic constraints like materialism, naturalism, or reductionism. The society is fully web-driven and can be reached via the Internet at http://www.iscid.org.
The society provides a forum for formulating, testing, and disseminating research on complex systems through critique, peer review, and publication. Its aim is to pursue the theoretical development, empirical application, and philosophical implications of information- and design-theoretic concepts for complex systems.”
International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design
“Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design (PCID) is a quarterly, cross-disciplinary, online journal that investigates complex systems apart from external programmatic constraints like materialism, naturalism, or reductionism. PCID focuses especially on the theoretical development, empirical application, and philosophical implications of information- and design-theoretic concepts for complex systems. PCIDwelcomes survey articles, research articles, technical communications, tutorials, commentaries, book and software reviews, educational overviews, and controversial theories. The aim of PCID is to advance the science of complexity by assessing the degree to which teleology is relevant (or irrelevant) to the origin, development, and operation of complex systems.”
Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design
“So in summary, what do we have? Firstly, neither Wells, Behe, Dembski nor Nelson appear to be currently publishing original research in mainstream scientific journals. Secondly, the research cited by ID supporters is not produced by ID supporters, and these authors do not see their research as supportive of the Discovery Institute’s anti-evolutionary program. Lastly, PCID’s review system is unorthodox and has not yielded any substantive advances in scientific inquiry being largely philosophical discussions, anti-establishment rhetorical diatribes or rehersals [sic] of jaded arguments from probability.”
John M. Lynch
Intelligent Design (ID) Creationism came to a head through The International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (ISCID). For an Indian-based publication which I wrote almost 300 articles for it, News Intervention, a decent article on the generic presentation of ISCID and more in-depth analysis of the publication record of PCID or the journal entitled Progress in Complexity, Information, and Design (PCID) is “Excavation of a Failure: The International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (ISCID)” (Jacobsen, 2022).
The core conclusions from the analysis were that ID is rebranded Creationism, sharing the same theological roots in divine intervention and Christian hermeneutics, as evidenced by statements from its founders (Ibid.). Both Creationism and ID failed to garner legitimacy in academia, courts, culture, and science (Ibid.).
ID’s architects openly tie the “Designer” to the Christian God and recast it in information-theory rhetoric (Ibid.). The Discovery Institute serves as the hub, with its leaders aging or dying without successors. Dembski left in 2016 but resurfaced around 2020 part-time and then more fully since 2021 (Science & Culture Today, 2021; Dembski, 2016), and the movement persists ideologically despite intellectual isolation (Jacobsen, 2022).
ISCID’s journal PCID served as the publishing pipeline, characterized by lax/conflicted review, limited output (~70 pieces), and a teleological focus (Ibid.). PCID’s activity faded after the 2005 Dover defeat (Ibid.).
The ID community is largely Euro-American Protestant men with advanced credentials, reflecting a sociopolitical project (Ibid.) and furthering the commentary in the prior pieces in this special series for A Further Inquiry and an archival piece for future curious audiences about the culture wars (not scientific, peer-reviewed intellectual combats) too (Ibid.).
Therefore, ID/ISCID/PCID failed because the enterprise is theological in substance and lacks evidential, rigorous science. A more pointed analysis of PCID is available at “What was the Professional Output of Intelligent Design?” (Jacobsen, 2022b).
By its analysis at the time, PCID was the most professional effort of the ID movement through ISCID to produce actual scholarly output (Ibid.). PCID reflects ISCID wholeheartedly as a teleological emphasis while borrowing the terminology of information theory (Ibid.).
Governance and review were compromised as ISCID Fellows doubled as PCID’s advisory/peer-review body (Ibid.). Publication could proceed with a single Fellow approval while under a concentrated editorial control, showcasing conflicts of interest and a weak formalization of rigour (Ibid.).
The total output was eight electronic issues from 2002-2005 with small or low-impact research outcomes (Ibid.). This is despite an extensive organization network, making PCID its flagship publication (Ibid.). As a research program attempt, PCID is a crucial archival representation of the failure of the ID research program (Ibid.).
As noted, there were 57 ISCID Fellows from a variety of academic disciplines and backgrounds. Let us do a coverage of them, as enough time has passed to see a then and now comparison and contrast. This will be an A to Z alphabetical listing by last name. This will be tedious, but necessary as an archival work and sourced from publicly available materials:
The ISCID Fellow is Bernard d’Abrera. Bernard d’Abrera (Australian lepidopterist and author associated with the Natural History Museum, London) died January 13, 2017. Michael Behe is in Biochemistry at Lehigh University. He is still a Professor of Biological Sciences at Lehigh University and a Senior Fellow at Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture (CSC).
John Bloom was a Professor of Physics & Philosophy of Science at Biola University. Now, he is Professor Emeritus of Physics at Biola University and the founding director of Biola’s M.A. in Science & Religion.
Walter L. Bradley was in the Mechanical Engineering department at Texas A&M University. Now, he is dead, circa July 2, 2025. Neil Broom was in the department of Biophysics at the University of Auckland. Now, he is Emeritus Professor of Chemical & Materials Engineering at the University of Auckland.
J. Budziszewski was in the Department of Philosophy & Political Theory at the University of Texas–Austin. Now, he is a Professor of Government and Philosophy at UT Austin. John Angus Campbell was a Professor of Communications at the University of Memphis. Now, he is a Professor Emeritus of Communication at the University of Memphis.
Russell W. Carlson was a Professor of Molecular Biology at the University of Georgia (Athens). Now, he is on the Faculty or in a Director Emeritus role at UGA’s Complex Carbohydrate Research Center.
David K. Y. Chiu was in the Department of Biocomputing at the University of Guelph. Now, he is Professor Emeritus in Computer Science at the University of Guelph. Robin Collins was in the Department of Cosmology & Philosophy of Physics at Messiah College. Now, he is Distinguished Professor of Philosophy & Department Chair at Messiah University.
William Lane Craig was in the Department of Philosophy at Talbot School of Theology at Biola. Now, he is Emeritus Research Professor of Philosophy at Talbot and leads Reasonable Faith. Kenneth de Jong was in the Department of Linguistics at Indiana University Bloomington. Now, he is a Professor of Linguistics at Indiana University.
William A. Dembski held various Mathematics roles while focusing as an independent. Now, he is a technology entrepreneur, a Founding/Senior Fellow of the Discovery Institute CSC and an active writer. Mark R. Discher was in the Department of Ethics at the University of St. Thomas. Now, he is a Theology/Ethics educator, e.g., Kino Catechetical Institute.
Daniel Dix was in the Department of Mathematics at the University of South Carolina. He was Professor Emeritus at USC. Now, he is dead circa 2023. Fred Field was in the Department of Linguistics at California State University. Now, he is Professor Emeritus at California State University, Northridge.
Guillermo Gonzalez was in the Department of Astronomy at Iowa State University. Now, he is a Research Scientist (Physics & Astronomy) at the University of Alabama in Huntsville. Bruce L. Gordon was in the Department of Philosophy of Physics at Baylor University. Now, he is Professor of the History & Philosophy of Science at Saint Constantine College (Houston) and has taught at Houston Christian University (formerly HBU).
David Humphreys was in the Department of Chemistry at McMaster University. Now, he is an emeritus or retired academic. Any public updates are limited to legacy profiles. Cornelius Hunter was in the Department of Biophysics at Seagull Technology. Now, he is a Discovery Institute Fellow who has been an engineer/scientist with industry roles. Any public updates are sparse.
Muzaffar Iqbal was in Science & Religion at the Center for Islam and Science. Now, he is the President of the Center for Islamic Sciences (Canada) and is the editor of the Integrated Encyclopedia of the Qur’an. Quinn Tyler Jackson was in Language & Software Systems independently. Now, he is a writer/technologist and listed with The Writers’ Union of Canada.
Conrad Johanson was in the Department of Clinical Neurosciences & Physiology at Brown Medical School. Now, he is Professor Emeritus at Brown University. Robert Kaita was in the Department of Plasma Physics at Princeton University. Then he was Researcher/Emeritus-affiliated at Princeton Plasma Physics Laboratory. Now, he is retired.
James P. Keener was in the Department of Mathematics & Bioengineering at the University of Utah. Now, he is the Distinguished Professor Emeritus in Mathematics at the University of Utah. Robert C. Koons was in the Department of Philosophy at the University of Texas–Austin. Now, he is a Professor of Philosophy at UT Austin. Younghun Kwon was in the Department of Physics at Hanyang University. Now, he is a Professor of Physics at Hanyang University (quantum information/AMO).
Christopher Michael Langan is the founder and President of the Mega Foundation (1999). He published his 56-page CTMU paper, “The Cognitive-Theoretic Model of the Universe: A New Kind of Reality Theory” (2002) in PCID. Now, he continues research work through the Mega Foundation, as a self-described “reality theorist.” Robert Larmer was in the Department of Philosophy at the University of New Brunswick. Now, he is a Professor & Department Chair in Philosophy at UNB Philosophy and the President of the Canadian Society of Christian Philosophers.
Matti Leisola was in the Department of Bioprocess Engineering at the Helsinki University of Technology. Now, he is a Professor Emeritus at Aalto University (formerly HUT). E. Stan Lennard was in the Department of Medicine at the University of Washington. Now, he is a retired surgeon/clinical professor. Any updated information is sparse. John Lennox was in the Department of Mathematics at the University of Oxford. Now, he is an Emeritus Professor of Mathematics & Fellow Emeritus at Green Templeton College, University of Oxford.
Gina Lynne LoSasso was qualified in Cognitive Neuroscience & Clinical Neuropsychology and worked with Christopher Michael Langan through the Mega Foundation & its Research Group. Now, she maintains an executive role with the Mega Foundation.
Jed Macosko was in the Department of Chemistry at La Sierra University. Now, he is a Professor of Physics at Wake Forest University and the President/Co-founder of AcademicInfluence.com. Bonnie Mallard was in the Department of Immunology at the University of Guelph. Now, she is a Professor in Pathobiology at the University of Guelph and is the inventor of HIR/Immunity+ livestock health technology.
Forrest M. Mims III was involved in Atmospheric Science research. Now, he continues atmospheric measurements and science writing. Scott Minnich was in the Department of Microbiology at the University of Idaho. Now, he is a Professor of Microbiology at the University of Idaho.
Paul Nelson was involved in the Philosophy of Biology at the Discovery Institute. Now, he is a Senior Fellow at the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science & Culture. Filip Palda was in the Department of Economics at ÉNAP (Montréal). Now, he is dead, circa 2017.
Edward T. Peltzer III was associated with Ocean Chemistry and later affiliated with MBARI. Now, he is retired from MBARI and is a long-time Senior Research Specialist/Program Manager. Alvin Plantinga was in the Department of Philosophy at the University of Notre Dame. Now, he is the John A. O’Brien Professor Emeritus at the University of Notre Dame.
Martin Poenie was in the Department of Molecular Cell & Developmental Biology at the University of Texas–Austin. Then he was a Retired/emeritus professor. Now, he is retired. Carlos E. Puente was in the Department of Hydrology & Theoretical Dynamics at the University of California, Davis. Now, he is a Professor Emeritus at UC Davis.
Del Ratzsch was in the Department of Philosophy of Science at Calvin College. Now, he is a Professor Emeritus of Philosophy at Calvin University. Jay Wesley Richards was involved in Philosophical Theology at the Discovery Institute. Now, he is a Senior Fellow/Director for The Heritage Foundation and a Professor at The Catholic University of America.
Terry Rickard was involved in Electrical Engineering at Orincon Corporation. Now, he is a senior technologist/executive, co-founded ORINCON, and has later roles at OptiMark and Lockheed Martin. John Roche was in the Department of History of Science at the University of Oxford. Now, he is dead, circa May 20, 2024 (Harris Manchester College, 2025).
Andrew Ruys was involved in Bioceramic Engineering at the University of Sydney. Now, he is a Professor of Engineering at the University of Sydney. Henry F. Schaefer III was involved in Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia (Athens). Now, he is the Graham Perdue Professor of Chemistry & Director of the Center for Computational Quantum Chemistry at the University of Georgia (Athens).
Jeffrey M. Schwartz, M.D., was involved in the Department of Psychiatry/Neuroscience at UCLA. Now, he is a Research Psychiatrist at UCLA and is an author on neuroplasticity/OCD. Philip S. Skell was involved in the Department of Chemistry at Penn State University. Now, he is dead, circa November 21, 2010.
Frederick Skiff was in the Department of Physics at the University of Iowa. Now, he is a professor of Physics & Astronomy at the University of Iowa. Karl D. Stephan was involved in the Department of Electrical Engineering at Southwest Texas State University. Now, he is a Professor at Texas State University, an engineering-ethics writer.
Richard M. Sternberg was involved in Systematics at NCBI-GenBank (NIH). Now, he is an independent/ID-affiliated scholar with no current formal institutional role publicly listed. Frank J. Tipler was involved in the Department of Mathematical Physics at Tulane University. Now, he is still a Professor of Mathematical Physics at Tulane University.
Jonathan Wells was involved in Developmental Biology at the Discovery Institute. Now, he is dead, September 19, 2024 (Klinghoffer, 2024). Peter Zöller-Greer was involved in Mathematics, Physics, and Information Science at the State University of Applied Sciences (Frankfurt/Main). Now, he is Professor/emeritus-level at Frankfurt University of Applied Sciences, but retired.
Therefore, 7 former ISCID Fellows are deceased: Bernard d’Abrera (Jan 13, 2017), Walter L. Bradley (July 2, 2025), Daniel Dix (July 3, 2023), Filip Palda (Aug 24, 2017), John J. Roche (May 20, 2024), Philip S. Skell (Nov 21, 2010), and Jonathan Wells (Sept 19, 2024).
13 are some form of emeritus: John Bloom, Neil Broom, John Angus Campbell, Russell W. Carlson, William Lane Craig, Fred Field, James P. Keener, Matti Leisola, John Lennox, Carlos E. Puente, Del Ratzsch, Alvin Plantinga, and David Humphreys.
Five are explicitly retired: E. Stan Lennard, Edward T. Peltzer III, Martin Poenie, Peter Zöller-Greer, and Robert Kaita. Therefore, 25 Fellows are deceased, emeritus, or retired (accounting for overlap), leaving 32 with current active roles; categories were active, deceased, emeritus (still publishing/teaching), retired (no ongoing academic appointment), and unknown/insufficient public information.
The transitions never happened after PCID and ISCID became defunct. ID Creationism’s most significant achievement in an attempt at academic legitimation eventuated in this outcome for itself. This legacy has significantly influenced the intellectual lives of numerous individuals. It is one of those rare phenomena: a forever-after reputational scar.
As noted previously, there are other organizations and individuals to cover.
References
Dembski, W.A. (2016, September 23). Official Retirement from Intelligent Design. https://billdembski.com/personal/official-retirement-from-intelligent-design/.
Dembski, W.A. (2025, July 23). Remembering Walter Bradley (1943–2025). https://scienceandculture.com/2025/07/remembering-walter-bradley-1943-2025/.
Harris Manchester College. (2025). Dr John Roche, 1937 – May 20 2024. https://www.hmc.ox.ac.uk/article/dr-john-roche-1937-20-may-2024.
Klinghoffer, D. (2024, September 24). Farewell to Jonathan Wells, Iconoclastic Scientist. https://scienceandculture.com/2024/09/farewell-to-jonathan-wells-iconoclastic-scientist/.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2022a, January 29). Excavation of a Failure: The International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (ISCID). https://in-sightpublishing.com/2022/04/06/excavation-of-a-failure-the-international-society-for-complexity-information-and-design-iscid/.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2022b, January 28). What was the Professional Output of Intelligent Design?. https://in-sightpublishing.com/2022/04/06/what-was-the-professional-output-of-intelligent-design/.
Science & Culture Today. (2021, February 16). William Dembski: Why I am Returning to the Front Lines of Intelligent Design. https://scienceandculture.com/2021/02/william-dembski-why-im-returning-to-the-front-lines-of-intelligent-design.
Footnotes
[1] Fellows of ISCID:
d’Abrera, Bernard
Behe, Michael J.
Bloom, John
Bradley, Walter
Broom, Neil
Budziszewski, J.
Campbell, John Angus
Carlson, Russell W.
Chiu, David K. Y.
Collins, Robin
Craig, William Lane
de Jong, Kenneth
Dembski, William A.
Discher, Mark R.
Dix, Daniel
Field, Fred
Gonzalez, Guillermo
Gordon, Bruce L.
Humphreys, David
Hunter, Cornelius
Iqbal, Muzaffar
Jackson, Quinn Tyler
Johanson, Conrad
Kaita, Robert
Keener, James
Koons, Robert C.
Kwon, Younghun
Langan, Christopher Michael
Larmer, Robert
Leisola, Matti
Lennard, Stan
Lennox, John
LoSasso, Gina Lynne
Macosko, Jed
Mallard, Bonnie
Mims, Forrest M. III
Minnich, Scott
Nelson, Paul
Palda, Filip
Peltzer, Edward T.
Plantinga, Alvin
Poenie, Martin
Puente, Carlos E.
Ratzsch, Del
Richards, Jay Wesley
Rickard, Terry
Roche, John
Ruys, Andrew
Schaefer, Henry F.
Schwartz, Jeffrey M.
Skell, Philip
Skiff, Frederick
Stephan, Karl D.
Sternberg, Richard
Tipler, Frank
Wells, Jonathan
Zöller-Greer, Peter
See International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (2013).
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09
“To defeat scientific materialism and its destructive moral, cultural and political legacies… To replace materialistic explanations with the theistic understanding that nature and human beings are created by God… To see intelligent design theory as the dominant perspective in science… Discovery Institute’s Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture seeks nothing less than the overthrow of materialism and its cultural legacies.”
“The Wedge Document,” CSC “Wedge” Strategy (1998)
(Documented by National Center for Science Education)
“The mission… is to advance the understanding that human beings and nature are the result of intelligent design… We seek long-term scientific and cultural change through cutting-edge scientific research and scholarship…”
Center for Science & Culture
“The mission of Discovery Institute is to advance a culture of purpose, creativity, and innovation… Mind, not matter, is the source and crown of creation, the wellspring of human achievement.”
Discovery Institute
This isn’t really, and never has been, a debate about science. It’s about religion and philosophy.
Philip E. Johnson
“The CSRC expressly announces, in the Wedge Document, a program of Christian apologetics to promote ID.”
Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School Dist., 400 F. Supp. 2d 707 (M.D. Pa. 2005)
The Discovery Institute (DI) is a policy think-tank based in Seattle, Washington (Discovery Institute, 2025a). DI was founded in 1991 by Bruce Chapman and George Gilder and presented as a “non-profit, non-partisan” organization to bring together a “global network of scholars, scientists, and policy experts” in the advancement of Intelligent Design (ID) Creationism in various ways (Discovery Institute, 2025b).
In reality, it is a series of ‘programs of Christian apologetics to promote ID Creationism’ through various “cultural and religious goals” to “change the ground rules of science to make room for religion, specifically, beliefs consonant with a particular version of Christianity” (Justia U.S. Law, 2005).
Their stated philosophy is “Mind… is the source and crown of creation, the wellspring of human achievement” as conceived “by the ancient Hebrews, Greeks and Christians, and elaborated in the American Founding Western culture” in contrast to “contemporary materialistic worldview [that] denies the intrinsic dignity and freedom of human beings and enfeebles scientific creativity and technological innovation…[a] vision [of] limited horizons… [and] deadening ideologies of scarcity, conflict, mutual suspicion and despair” (Discovery Institute, 2025c).
DI is the primary driver of ID Creationism to ‘teach the controversy’ (Discovery Institute, 2005). DI has programs in science and culture, wealth and poverty, technology, artificial intelligence, citizen leadership, transforming education, human exceptionalism, and the Cascadia Center (Ibid.).
Its Board of Directors is a respectable size featuring prominent public and political figures, business leaders and innovators, and philanthropic community members (Discovery Institute, 2025d). Its current Chair of the Board is Bruce Chapman, while the former Chair of the Board–and current member of the Board–is Byron Nutley (Ibid.)
Prominent public and political figures are Edmund C. Moy, Howard F. Ahmanson Jr., and Mariana Parks (Ibid.). Business leaders and innovator members are Bryan Mistele, Charles Lundberg, Cole Smead, Dave Barber, Eric Garcia, James Spady, Mike Dunn, Richard Greiling, Skip Gilliland, and Walter Myers III (Ibid.).
Philanthropic community board members are Annmarie Kelly and Kathy Connors (Ibid.). This remains a significant number of prominent people in support of a Christian apologetic missional work under presentation as a policy think-tank.
Its active Senior Fellows are Andrew McDiarmid, Bill Walton, David Klinghoffer, Donald P. Nielsen, Frank Gregorsky, Gale Pooley, George Gilder, Jay W. Richards, John G. West, John Wohlstetter, Jonathan Choe, Jonathan Lesser, Keri D. Ingraham, Marvin Olasky, Michael Medved, Robert Marbut, Scott S. Powell, Stephen C. Meyer, Walter Myers III, and Wesley J. Smith (Discovery Institute, 2025e).
Its Fellows are Arina Grossu Agnew, Bruce Agnew, Edwin Meese III, Jerry Bowyer, Nathan Lewis, Paul Guppy, Ray B. Chambers, Robert J. Koch, Scott O. Kuznicki, Tim Scala, and Tom Shakely (Ibid.). DI Staff are varied in task and role [1]
They list events of various types including book events (e.g., book launch, author Q&A), conferences (e.g., COSM Technology Summit, Dallas Conference on Science & Faith), education days (e.g., Intelligent Design Education Day), film screenings (e.g., The American Miracle, Fentanyl Death Incorporated), lectures/talks (e.g., Socrates in the City, Bible & the Rise of Science), luncheons (e.g., lunch discussion on Presidential Succession), special experiences (e.g., 2024 total eclipse viewing), and webinars (e.g., The Privileged Planet 20th Anniversary webinar) (Discovery Institute, 2025g).
They distribute materials and generate wealth in alternative ways too (Discovery Institute, 2025h). DI sells books (e.g., Discovery Institute Press titles), curricula and educational materials (e.g., textbooks, workbooks, discussion guides), documentary DVDs and videos (e.g., The Privileged Planet, Metamorphosis, The Intelligent Design Collection), merchandise (e.g., mugs, posters, calendars, clothing), and online courses (e.g., DiscoveryU) (Ibid.).
So, a large board and staff, diverse events, and a clear Christian apologetic hermeneutic as a culture war organization presenting itself as a policy think-tank, as well as events and merchandise. Who finances the operation? It is a reasonable question.
One answer is donation (Discovery Institute, 2025i). DI offers general or program-specific giving, tiered memberships (e.g., Contributor, Discovery Society, Director’s Circle, President’s Circle), or planned giving, stock gifts, IRA distributions, and bequests (Ibid.).
Major documented funders include DonorsTrust ($9,352,000), National Christian Charitable Foundation ($7,376,750), Walton Family Foundation($400,000), Schwab Charitable Fund ($286,550), The Lynde and Harry Bradley Foundation ($260,000), The Seattle Foundation ($81,000), Searle Freedom Trust ($80,000), John Templeton Foundation ($78,750), Barney Family Foundation ($50,000), William H. Donner Foundation ($50,000), The Carthage Foundation ($40,000), Castle Rock Foundation ($25,000), Deramus Foundation ($15,000), Whatley Foundation ($11,000), Peterson Family Foundation ($3,670), Richard Seth Staley Educational Foundation ($3,000), Aequus Institute ($2,000), and Gilder Foundation ($1,000) (DeSmog, 2025).
The Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation provided approximately $1,000,000 per year for 10 years, totalling ~9.35 million dollars, with the stipulation that the funds be restricted to DI’s Cascadia transportation/urban policy work (Ibid.).
They created several centers and a project: American Center for Transforming Education, Cascadia Center for Regional Development, Center for Natural and Artificial Intelligence, Center for Science and Culture, Center on Human Exceptionalism, Center on Wealth and Poverty, Chapman Center for Citizen Leadership, and Technology and Democracy Project.
American Center for Transforming Education is about K–12 policy advocacy (e.g., parental choice, innovation, “empower parents” framing) to transform” public education (2025). The Cascadia Center for Regional Development (2025) is a Pacific Northwest transportation and regional development policy. It backed Seattle’s SR-99 deep-bore tunnel replacement for the Alaskan Way Viaduct (Ibid.).
The Center for Natural and Artificial Intelligence (Walter Bradley Center) looks at the AI’s benefits/limits through a lens of human exceptionalism (echoed later) while contrasting human vs. machine intelligence (2025). The Center for Science and Culture is a central flagship for Intelligent Design advocacy, whether “academic freedom” campaigns for ID, education programs, or research (2025).
The Center on Human Exceptionalism has a bioethics focus with the explicit intent to defend human dignity as defined intrinsically, with a focus on assisted-suicide and euthanasia debates, and medical ethics (2025). While the Center on Wealth and Poverty emphasizes free-market economics messaging, they have a focus on homelessness, poverty, and work on critiques of progressive policy, previously led by Christopher Rufo (2025).
The Chapman Center for Citizen Leadership offers fellowships and hosts seminars to mentor young professionals, with a focus on civic leadership and public life (2025). Lastly, the Technology and Democracy Project focuses on tech/telecom policy from a market perspective, frequently opposing FCC-style net-neutrality philosophy (2025).
With these centers, projects, programs, events, donations, and funding, it represents a reasonably well-funded, long-term, and large-scale project devoted to pseudoscience as a ‘policy think-tank,’ but, rather, is a representative of a decades-long record of failures to advance ID Creationism.
These have continued since the mid-1990s. Unequivocally, the American Association for the Advancement of Science (2002), Kitzmiller v. Dover (2005) decision, the National Academy of Sciences (1999), and the National Science Teachers Association, and numerous others, have declared ID Creationism not science.
Indeed, the Wedge Document further illuminates DI’s as a religious–cultural strategy rather than a scientific program. (National Center for Science Education, 2008). That’s the Discovery Institute.
There’s more, though, to be covered in the upcoming articles.
References
American Association for the Advancement of Science. (2002, November 6). AAAS urges opposition to ‘intelligent design theory’ within U.S. science classes. https://www.eurekalert.org/news-releases/623273.
American Center for Transforming Education. (2025). About. https://www.discovery.org/education/about/
Cascadia Center. (2025). About. https://cascadia.center/about/.
Center for Human Exceptionalism. (2025). About: Our Mission. https://humanexceptionalism.center/about/.
Center for Science & Culture. (2025). About: Our Mission. https://www.discovery.org/id/about/.
Center on Wealth & Poverty. (2025). About: Our Mission. https://wealthandpoverty.center/about/.
Chapman Center for Citizen Leadership. (2025). Programs. https://chapman.center/programs.
DeSmog. (2025). Discovery Institute (D.I.). https://www.desmog.com/discovery-institute/.
Discovery Institute. (2005, December 7). Academic Persecution of Scientists and Scholars Researching Intelligent Design is a Dangerous and Growing Trend. https://www.discovery.org/a/3077/.
Discovery Institute. (2025d). Board of Directors. https://www.discovery.org/about/board-of-directors/.
Discovery Institute. (2025a). Discovery Institute. https://www.discovery.org.
Discovery Institute. (2025h). Discovery Institute Store. https://www.discovery.org/store/.
Discovery Institute. (2025g). Events. https://www.discovery.org/c/discovery-institute/?post_type=e.
Discovery Institute. (2025e). Fellows: Discovery Institute Senior Fellows. https://www.discovery.org/about/fellows/.
Discovery Institute. (2025c). Mission. https://www.discovery.org/about/mission/.
Discovery Institute. (2025f). Staff Directory. https://www.discovery.org/about/directory/.
Discovery Institute. (2025b). What We Do. https://www.discovery.org/about/.
Justia U.S. Law. (2005, December 20). Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School Dist., 400 F. Supp. 2d 707 (M.D. Pa. 2005). https://law.justia.com/cases/federal/district-courts/FSupp2/400/707/2414073/.
National Center for Science Education. (2008, October 14). The Wedge Document. https://ncse.ngo/wedge-document.
Technology & Democracy Project. (2025). About. https://www.discovery.org/tech/about/.
The Walter Bradley Center for Natural & Artificial Intelligence. (2025). Mission. https://bradley.center/about/mission/.
Footnotes
[1] Serianna Anderson — Event and Donor Care Coordinator, Discovery Institute; Pam Bailey — Dallas Operations Manager, Discovery Institute Dallas; Steven J. Buri — President; Bruce Chapman — Chairman of the Board; Jonathan Choe — Journalist and Senior Fellow; Caitlin Cory — Communications Coordinator, Discovery Institute; Robert L. Crowther, II– Director of Communications, Center for Science & Culture; Steve Dilley — Academic Mentoring Centers Coordinator; Tova Forman — Development Specialist, Center for Science & Culture; Bruce Gordon — Associate Research Director, Center for Science & Culture; Keri D. Ingraham — Director, American Center for Transforming Education; Nathan Jacobson — Director of Media and Branding; Kate Kavanaugh — Education & Outreach Assistant, Center for Science & Culture; David Klinghoffer — Senior Fellow and Editor, Evolution News & Science Today, Center for Science & Culture; Casey Luskin — Associate Director, Center for Science & Culture; Andrew McDiarmid — Director of Podcasting, Senior Fellow; Jonathan McLatchie — Resident Biologist & Fellow; Elaine Meyer — Cambridge Project; Stephen C. Meyer — Director, Center for Science & Culture; Marsha Michaelis — Project Coordinator and Research Fellow, Fix Homelessness Initiative of Discovery Institute’s Center on Wealth & Poverty; Brian Miller — Research Coordinator, Center for Science & Culture; Dan Nutley — Director, IT; Erik L. Nutley — Program Director; Daniel Reeves — Director, Education & Outreach; Emily Sandico — Special Projects Coordinator, Center for Science & Culture; Eric Schneider — Stewardship Officer, Major Gifts, Center for Science & Culture; Steve Schwarz — Director of Finance & Operations; Elliot Stephens– Development Assistant, Center for Science & Culture; Leslie Thompson — Finance Assistant; Kelley J. Unger — Director, Discovery Society, Center for Science & Culture; Andrea Waggoner — Donor Care Coordinator, Center for Science & Culture; John G. West — Vice President, Discovery Institute, and Managing Director, Center for Science & Culture; Katherine West — Web Developer and Data Administrator; Brian Westad — Business Manager and Executive Assistant to the Managing Director, Center for Science & Culture; Thomas Winkler — Regional Ambassador, Center for Science and Culture; Jonathan Witt — Executive Editor, Discovery Institute Press; Senior Fellow and Senior Project Manager, Center for Science & Culture; Penny Yeh — Web and Content Production Assistant.
See Discovery Institute (2025f).
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09
“The ID movement itself recognizes that their view stands in opposition to science. One finds this not only in the leaked Discovery Institute “Wedge” document, which discusses overturning what they see as the anti-theistic assumptions of modernism, but throughout ID writings. I’ll just give a few examples. William Dembski writes:
The scientific picture of the world championed since the Enlightenment is not just wrong but massively wrong. Indeed entire fields of inquiry, especially in the human sciences… need to be rethought from the ground up in terms of intelligent design. (Dembski 1999, p. 224)
Another ID theorist, J. P. Moreland expressed the conviction that ID is not science by coining a new term:
If (naturalists) want to define science in naturalistic terms, then we can define a new term, creascience, that allows for the recognition of discontinuities in nature that indicate the intentional, immediate intervention of a first cause that resembles a person. Note, if God does not exist, or if he has never intervened in the world through primary causality, then science and creascience are empirically equivalent and equally adequate approaches to the study of nature. The main difference between science and creascience is that the latter allows for the possibility that primary causality has occurred and can be recognized, (Moreland 1989)
Here we see another conceptual link to creation science even in Moreland’s choice for the roots of his coined word. Whatever one calls it, IDCs themselves recognize that it is not science.”
Dr. Robert T. Pennock
“It is ironic that several of these individuals, who so staunchly and proudly touted their religious convictions in public, would time and again lie to cover their tracks and disguise the real purpose behind the ID Policy.”
Judge John E. Jones III
“Ye shall not steal, neither deal falsely, neither lie one to another.”
Leviticus 19:11
“You shall not bear false witness…”
Exodus 20:16
These ethical admonitions from modern courts and their purported holy scripture frame the controversy. The first article in this newest series on the more sophisticated forms of Creationism, “Intelligent Design Creationism’s Fall from Grace,” gave the layout of the long-term failure outcomes of the Intelligent Design (ID) Creationism movement over the last several decades and then listed some of its key individuals (Jacobsen, 2025).
The ID movement, rooted in attempts to combat “scientific materialism” and guided by the Discovery Institute’s Wedge Document (National Center for Science Education, 2008), sought to advance a theistic worldview in culture, but failed due to its lack of testability and falsifiability (National Center for Science Education, 2005).
This article will cover the core architects and leaders, while the subsequent articles will cover the institutions and figures. The key architects are Dr. Michael Behe, Dr. William Dembski, Dr. Stephen C. Meyer, Philip Johnson (1940-2019), and Bruce Chapman (Orr, 2005).
Dr. Michael Behe is a biochemist and professor at Lehigh University (Lehigh University, 2025a). He developed the concept of Irreducible Complexity (Paradowski, 2022; Behe, 1996). He claims certain biological systems are too complex to have evolved (Ibid.). He authored Darwin’s Black Box (1996) to describe this. He identifies the intelligent creator of ID as the Christian God for himself, as he is Catholic–while threading the argument ID does not necessarily endorse any particular designer (Paula Zahn Now, 2005).
His idea of Irreducible Complexity is thoroughly regarded as pseudoscience, heavily criticized and refuted by relevant major scientific bodies (National Center for Science Education, 2008a; Wells, 2008). He remains on the faculty of the university, but the department does not endorse the views (Lehigh University, 2025b). In the ID community, he remains a major figure (Discovery Institute, 2025a).
Dr. William Dembski is a mathematician and philosopher (Discovery Institute, 2025b). He formalized the idea of Specified Complexity in information-theoretic terms (1998). He argues certain patterns are too complex and specific to evolve (Encyclopedia Britannica, 2025a). He explicitly linked ID to Christian theology; he explained ID as Information Theory in the idiom of John’s Gospel (Williams, 2007; Dembski, 2019).
His ideas have been largely dismissed as pseudoscience (National Center for Science Education, 2008a). He is known as a historical figure significant in the Christian culture wars over evolution, particularly relating to science curricula and religion in public life.
Dr. Stephen C. Meyer is a senior fellow and director at the Discovery Institute’s Center for Science and Culture (Discovery Institute, 2025c). He has been a leading architect of ID. He directs DI’s Center for Science and Culture; the leaked Wedge document outlined the CSC’s strategy to ‘defeat scientific materialism’ and advance a theistic understanding of nature (National Center for Science Education, 2008b). A cultural strategy to advance ID in culture and science (Ibid.).
Meyer’s works have failed in broad and numbered peer-reviewed success, even when publishing in the Proceedings of the Biological Society of Washington in 2004; the paper was repudiated (National Center for Science Education, 2004). The journal clarified: The review process was mishandled and the paper failed to meet scientific standards (Ibid.). In addition, the scientific consensus against ID Creationism remains firm on it, i.e., its pseudoscience (National Center for Science Education, 2008a).
Other footnotes include the Kitzmiller v. Dover (2005) court case loss. ID has failed to produce a viable scientific research program. ID is known as being incapable of uncoupling “itself from its creationist antecedents,” not a scientific research program (Jacobsen, 2025). Supernaturalism lost; naturalism was not replaced in science or in culture.
Phillip Johnson (deceased) was a law professor and early intellectual leader of the ID movement (Discovery Institute, 2025d). He was associated in shaping the Wedge Document and its overarching strategy via the Discovery Institute to challenge–what they called–“scientific materialism” while simultaneously promoting a theistic worldview (National Center for Science Education, 2008b).
Johnson’s legacy became a failure to convince courts or persuade scientists, the Dover ruling blocking ID from classrooms, exposure of the religious core of ID via the Wedge Document leak, and the maintenance of a largely secular and naturalistic science in culture.
Bruce Chapman is the Chairman of the Board of the Discovery Institute (Discovery Institute, 2025e). He is another of the core figures promoting ID via public outreach and media influence. His media expertise has been instrumental in the ID movement.
Discovery Institute under Chapman is identified largely as a religious advocacy group commonly with internal perspectives as a public-policy think tank. Regardless, it lost any potential scientific credibility or scientific research program for ID.
Its association and identity as a religious advocacy group is firmly established, and, therefore, a non-neutral producer of scholarship. Kitzmiller (M.D. Pa. 2005) is a district-court decision (binding only in that jurisdiction) as a case in point, but has been nationally influential as a persuasive authority on public education policy.
However, based on the significant decades-long failures of these men and associated intellectual communities, ironically, their failures have bolstered secular and scientific advocacy.
The next articles will cover the Discovery Institute/Center for Science & Culture (CSC), ISCID/PCID (journal), Biologic Institute (DI-affiliated lab), Foundation for Thought and Ethics (FTE), Access Research Network (ARN), and others, and associated figures.
References
Behe, M.J. (1996). Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution. New York: Free Press.
Dembski, W. A. (1999). Intelligent Design: The Bridge Between Science & Theology. Downers Grove, InterVarsity Press.
Dembski, W.A. (2019, September 14). Intelligent Design and the Logos of Creation. https://billdembski.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/ID-and-the-Logos-of-Creation.pdf.
Dembski, W.A. (1998). The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities. Cambridge University Press.
Discovery Institute. (2025e). Bruce Chapman. https://www.discovery.org/p/chapman/.
Discovery Institute. (2025a). Michael J. Behe. https://www.discovery.org/p/behe/.
Discovery Institute. (2025d). Philip E. Johnson. https://www.discovery.org/p/johnson/.
Discovery Institute. (2025c). Stephen C. Meyer. https://www.discovery.org/p/meyer/.
Discovery Institute. (2025b). William A. Dembski. https://www.discovery.org/p/dembski/.
Encyclopedia Britannica. (2025a). Intelligent design. https://www.britannica.com/topic/intelligent-design.
International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (2013, January 23). ISCID – Fellows. https://web.archive.org/web/20130123000307/http://www.iscid.org/fellows.php.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2025, August 19). Intelligent Design Creationism’s Fall from Grace. https://afurtherinquiry.substack.com/p/intelligent-design-creationisms-fall.
Lehigh University. (2025a). Michael Behe. https://bio.cas.lehigh.edu/faculty-staff/michael-behe.
Lehigh University. (2025b). Department position on evolution and “intelligent design”. https://bio.cas.lehigh.edu/about/department-position-evolution-intelligent-design
Moreland, J. P. (1989). Christianity and the Nature of Science: A Philosophical Investigation.
National Center for Science Education. (2008a, September 9). American Association for the Advancement of Science (2002). https://ncse.ngo/american-association-advancement-science-2002.
National Center for Science Education. (2004, October 24). BSW Strengthens Statement Repudiating Meyer Paper. https://ncse.ngo/bsw-strengthens-statement-repudiating-meyer-paper.
National Center for Science Education. (2005, December 20). Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, 400 F. Supp. 2d 707 (M.D. Pa. 2005). https://ncse.ngo/files/pub/legal/kitzmiller/highlights/2005-12-20_Kitzmiller_decision.pdf.
National Center for Science Education. (2008b, October 14). The Wedge Document. https://ncse.ngo/wedge-document.
Orr, H.A. (2005, May 22). Devolution. https://www.newyorker.com/magazine/2005/05/30/devolution-2.
Paradowski, R.J. (2022). Intelligent design movement. https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/religion-and-philosophy/intelligent-design-movement.
Paula Zahn Now. (2005, November 25). The Debate Over Intelligent Design; American Girl Doll Ignites Controversy. https://transcripts.cnn.com/show/pzn/date/2005-11-25/segment/01.
Wells, J. (2008, March 26). Darwin of the Gaps: Review of The Language of God: A Scientist Presents Evidence for Belief by Francis S. Collins. https://www.discovery.org/a/4529/.
Williams, D. (2007, December 14). Friday Five: William A. Dembski. https://web.archive.org/web/20071217212817/http://www.citizenlink.org/content/A000006139.cfm.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09
International metrics indicate abuse patterns of males and females. Sex asymmetries exist in these contexts of violence, whether physical violence, sexual assault, emotional/psychological maltreatment, financial/economic control, or abuse within institutions.
Both men and women can be perpetrators of these forms of abuse. Global research shows significant gender asymmetries in prevalence, in severity, and even in context. Many societies show that men commit a disproportionate amount of severe physical and sexual abuse.
Women’s perpetration tends to occur in different patterns or contexts. 90% of the homicide perpetrators worldwide are male, based on UNODC data. Males commit most of the non-lethal assaults and violent crimes. Males mostly perpetrate physical domestic violence. 1 in 3 women and 1 in 10 men experience physical violence in the United States.
Females suffer more severe injuries and repeated assaults, with most of the intimate partner homicides committed by males. A partner kills 38% of female murder victims compared to 5% of male victims. Males are the majority of the perpetrators of physical aggression in other contexts.
The frequency and lethality of physical abuse skew male. However, this is a false basis for blanket stereotyping of males. Women can and do inflict physical harm. Sexual violence is the most gender-disparate form of abuse. No matter the place in the world. Men perpetrate the majority of sexual assaults and rapes.
The U.S. Department of Justice indicates that nearly 99% of persons who commit rape or sexual assault are male. Women and girls are more often victims of sexual abuse. The World Health Organization reports that 1 in 3 women has been subjected to physical and/or sexual violence in their lifetime.
The male lifetime risk of sexual victimization is lower. In the U.S., ~1 in 14 men report being “made to penetrate” or sexually coerced at some point. Female perpetration of sexual abuse does occur, particularly by authority figures abusing minors. Studies on child sexual abuse indicate 75–90% of offenders are male, while 10–25% are female.
Female offenders tend to target boys. Male offenders tend to target girls. Sexual abuse by women is under-detected due to stereotypes. Therefore, the rates of abuse by females are higher than the known reported estimates. Sexual abuse is a highly gendered crime.
Emotional and psychological abuse are common. Both sexes engage in emotional abuse, psychological manipulation, and verbal harassment at significant rates. In the U.S., 48.4% of women and 48.8% of men report psychological aggression.
These behaviours of abuse include belittling, controlling, insults, intimidation, isolation, threats, and more. Males and females employ these in different ways. Women are as or more likely to engage in verbal aggression than men, including yelling, name-calling, and more.
Males tend to incorporate threats of violence with verbal aggression—a pattern of domination, in the form of a sustained pattern of control. Females tend to engage in relational aggression using social exclusion, guilt-tripping, or emotional manipulation, e.g., belittle their partner’s masculinity or use passive-aggressive tactics.
Financial or economic abuse is controlling a victim’s employment, money, or resources. Males tend to be the perpetrators of financial abuse in patriarchal contexts. An environment in which the male has significant authority over financial decisions in the home. Elder abuse is common among males and females via exploitation of the elderly.
Institutional abuse is maltreatment within systems of care or power. Males and females are perpetrators. In nursing homes and long-term care facilities, two-thirds of staff members admit to committing abuse of older persons in the past year.
Frontline caregivers for elders tend to be women. Women figure prominently and significantly among institutional abusers in elder care. Egregious institutional abuse scandals involve predominantly male perpetrators taking advantage of authority.
Institutional abuse is less about the gender of the perpetrator. It is more about power imbalances. Those in charge, male or female, may abuse vulnerable dependents. Styles of abuse mirror broader gender patterns: male staff tend to be implicated in sexual violence, whereas female staff tend to be implicated in neglect or emotional abuse. Experts emphasize that both women and men can be guilty of severe abuse in institutional settings.
Male perpetrators of violence show more antisocial personality disorder or narcissistic personality. Female perpetrators show more borderline personality traits. Institutional biases and stereotypes can lead to female abusers not being held accountable. Female victims often face disbelief.
The further questions in either case of the significant minorities of females and males who abuse are the impacts, motivations, or patterns.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09
“The Act impermissibly endorses religion by advancing the religious belief that a supernatural being created humankind.”
Supreme Court of the United States (Edwards v. Aguillard, 1987)
“Creationism, intelligent design and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science.”
National Academy of Sciences (1999)
“The lack of scientific warrant for so-called ‘intelligent design theory’ makes it improper to include as a part of science education.”
American Association for the Advancement of Science (2002)
“Intelligent design is not science. It is not testable, it is not falsifiable, it does not generate hypotheses, and it does not provide explanations for the natural world.”
National Science Teachers Association
“Science is a philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance. You cannot build a program of discovery on the assumption that nobody is smart enough to figure out the answer to a problem.”
Dr. Neil DeGrasse Tyson
“[Intelligent design is] not a scientific argument at all, but a religious one.”
Dr. Richard Dawkins
“…[intelligent design] fails in a fundamental way to qualify as a scientific theory [and is] doing considerable damage to faith.”
Dr. Francis Collins (Leader, Human Genome Project)
When I use the term “Fall from Grace,” I mean the profound loss of academic, public, and scientific credibility experienced by Intelligent Design (ID) advocates once their pseudoscientific claims were exposed (Jacobsen, 2022a; Jacobsen, 2022b; Jacobsen, 2024; Jacobsen, 2025). ID is a religious advocacy project framed as science. Essentially, it’s evolution or bust.
ID Creationism was a political movement intended as a social change agent through a vehicle of a pseudoscientific proposition, ID Creationism or adapted traditional Creationism (Encyclopedia Britannica, 2025a). This was documented through the leaked Wedge Document (National Center for Science Education, 2008).
It did not have much academic or intellectual cache in the first place, outside of religious believer circles, who are the vast majority of the proponents of this (Scott & Branch, 2002). It’s a broad-based advocacy effort primarily rooted in Christian theological commitments (National Center for Science Education, 2008).
Most proponents were, and are, well-educated Protestant Christian men (International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design, 2013). Some exceptions included Dr. David Berlinski (2025) as an agnostic Jew, Christopher Michael Langan as a self-described “reality theorist” (Langan, 2025), and Muzaffar Iqbal as a Muslim (International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design, 2013), and possibly others.
ID Creationism was an adaptation of Creationism. Creationism as a “belief that the universe and the various forms of life were created by God out of nothing (ex nihilo)” (Encyclopedia Britannica, 2025b). Its main sophistications are two foundational ideas: Irreducible Complexity of Dr. Michael Behe, and Specified Complexity of Dr. William Dembski (Paradowski, 2022).
Behe defines Irreducible Complexity as a “single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning” (Behe, 1996).
Dembski defines Specified Complexity as “the condition in which something is both complex (i.e., not easily produced by chance) and specified (i.e., matches an independently given pattern)” (Dembski, 1998).
Both have been thoroughly debunked. Irreducible Complexity fails to demonstrate evolutionary pathways. Specified Complexity fails due to a probability miscalculation and lacks a reproducible metric. On the propaganda for Christianity and Theism behind a veneer of intellectualism, we can quote its intellectual founders, Dembski and Behe.
Dembski said in two separate instances: “The Designer of intelligent design is, ultimately, the Christian God” (Williams, 2007), and “Intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John’s Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory” (Dembski, 2019). Behe stated, “I think the designer is God. I’m a Roman Catholic.” (Paula Zahn Now, 2005). These eventuated in key, definitive court battles (National Center for Science Education, 2005).
In short, ID Creationism is Christian political propaganda framed as scientific dissent based on the statements and philosophical frame provided by its founders. A scattered few were drawn to the pseudoscientific ideas. Some individuals became associated with these ideas without fully anticipating the reputational consequences, or other unforeseen consequences. As a theology program, therefore, it’s culturally ministerial in nature.
Even within Christian communities, over time, many were able to distinguish ID’s pseudoscientific veneer from legitimate inquiry. Select Christian intellectual founders of ID Creationism were candid about religious motives internally, but publicly misrepresented ID as a secular scientific alternative.
Association with the movement carried reputational costs once its scientific shortcomings were publicly established, because its public claims diverged from the internal documents and were ultimately rejected as lacking scientific support. The Wedge Document was part of this spear (National Center for Science Education, 2008).
It was produced by the Discovery Institute’s Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture (2025). The main claim is “scientific materialism” was corrosive to culture (Ibid.). They sought to replace this perspective with a theistic comprehension of reality (Ibid.).
ID positioned various ‘pressure points’ for challenging Darwinian evolution (Ibid.).The metaphor of a wedge was about a strategy to undermine the perceived dominance of materialism in culture and science (Ibid.).
They proposed three phases for this: Research, Writing & Publication; Publicity & Opinion-making; and, Cultural Confrontation & Renewal (Ibid.). That is, a comprehensive, phased project for theistic cultural influence.
They wanted to fund and produce scholarship, promote ID in books, conferences, mass media, apologetic seminars, trainings for teachers, and think-tanks, and to pursue legal strategies and then integrate ID into public school curricula (Ibid.).
The institutional and media leadership for this was Stephen C. Meyer, Phillip Johnson, and Bruce Chapman (Ibid.). Discovery Senior Fellow Dr. Stephen Meyer directs the Center, while its original strategy came from the mindset of the late Phillip Johnson and the media expertise of Discovery President Bruce Chapman (Ibid.).
They provided bases for metrics, too. They had five-year aims from 1999-2003(/4) and 20-year aims too. By year five, they wanted to have ID Creationism accepted as a valid scientific alternative to evolution via natural selection, to trigger major public debate, to publish 30 books and 100 scholarly articles, and then influence major public opinion and secular national media attention. These benchmarks were never met, underscoring the project’s ultimate failure.
By year 20, they wanted to make ID Creationism the dominant perspective in science and diffused throughout the arts, humanities, law, natural sciences, and public policy. Once more, none of these goals were achieved — they failed.
Even when trying to change the opinions of the public Christian community, who are pretty discerning over enough time and getting over in-group bias, they failed to change them much either. This reflects well on Christian communities themselves, who proved discerning enough to separate sense from non-sense despite initial in-group bias.
Other aims stipulated were the creation of fellowships, research funding, media productions, alliances, and the like. In total, about 60 individuals accepted fellowships through ISCID before the organization eventually became defunct.[1]
Per statement of Judge John E. Jones III (U.S. District Court) on if ID Creationism counts as science, “ID is not science… We find that ID fails on three different levels. … Moreover, ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents” (Wired Staff, 2006).
In the end, Intelligent Design Creationism lost in the courts, in academia, and in public credibility. It remains a cultural-theological movement, not a scientific one—an instructive case study in how pseudoscience falters when exposed to rigorous scrutiny.
Next, we will examine the outcomes of the ID creationists’ failed attempt to impose a pseudoscientific, religious metanarrative on culture, focusing on the intellectual leaders and for individuals involved in these core creationist or ID Creationism initiatives.
References
Behe, M.J. (1996). Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution. New York: Free Press.
Berlinski, D. (2025). David Berlinski. https://davidberlinski.org.
Dembski, W.A. (2019, September 14). Intelligent Design and the Logos of Creation. https://billdembski.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/ID-and-the-Logos-of-Creation.pdf
Dembski, W.A. (1998). The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities. Cambridge University Press.
Discovery Institute. (2025). Center for Science and Culture. https://www.discovery.org/id/
Encyclopedia Britannica. (2025b). Creationism. https://www.britannica.com/topic/creationism.
Encyclopedia Britannica. (2025a). Intelligent design. https://www.britannica.com/topic/intelligent-design.
International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (2013, January 23). ISCID – Fellows. https://web.archive.org/web/20130123000307/http://www.iscid.org/fellows.php.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2024, January 22). Canadians and Creationism. https://in-sightpublishing.com/2024/04/06/canadians-and-creationism/.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2025, April 1). How Creationism and Intelligent Design Undermine Canadian Science Education: The Trinity Western University Case. https://in-sightpublishing.com/2025/04/28/how-creationism-and-intelligent-design-undermine-canadian-science-education-the-trinity-western-university-case/.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2022a, January 28). On a Mission for Never: Dr. William Dembski (1960-). https://www.newsintervention.com/mission-never-william-dembski/.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2022b, January 28). What was the Professional Output of Intelligent Design?. https://in-sightpublishing.com/2022/04/06/what-was-the-professional-output-of-intelligent-design/.
Langan, C.M. (2025, June 20). What is Intelligent Design?. https://www.megafoundation.substack.com/p/what-is-intelligent-design.
National Center for Science Education. (2005, December 20). Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, 400 F. Supp. 2d 707 (M.D. Pa. 2005). https://ncse.ngo/files/pub/legal/kitzmiller/highlights/2005-12-20_Kitzmiller_decision.pdf.
National Center for Science Education. (2008, October 14). The Wedge Document. https://ncse.ngo/wedge-document.
Paradowski, R.J. (2022). Intelligent design movement. https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/religion-and-philosophy/intelligent-design-movement.
Paula Zahn Now. (2005, November 25). The Debate Over Intelligent Design; American Girl Doll Ignites Controversy. https://transcripts.cnn.com/show/pzn/date/2005-11-25/segment/01.
Scott, E.C. & Branch, G. (2002, August 12). “Intelligent Design” Not Accepted by Most Scientists. https://ncse.ngo/intelligent-design-not-accepted-most-scientists.
Williams, D. (2007, December 14). Friday Five: William A. Dembski. https://web.archive.org/web/20071217212817/http://www.citizenlink.org/content/A000006139.cfm.
Wired Staff. (2006, June 1). Intelligent Decision. https://www.wired.com/2006/06/jones/.
Footnotes
[1] Those individuals who accepted a fellowship position were the following:
d’Abrera, Bernard
Behe, Michael J.
Bloom, John
Bradley, Walter
Broom, Neil
Budziszewski, J.
Campbell, John Angus
Carlson, Russell W.
Chiu, David K. Y.
Collins, Robin
Craig, William Lane
de Jong, Kenneth
Dembski, William A.
Discher, Mark R.
Dix, Daniel
Field, Fred
Gonzalez, Guillermo
Gordon, Bruce L.
Humphreys, David
Hunter, Cornelius
Iqbal, Muzaffar
Jackson, Quinn Tyler
Johanson, Conrad
Kaita, Robert
Keener, James
Koons, Robert C.
Kwon, Younghun
Langan, Christopher Michael
Larmer, Robert
Leisola, Matti
Lennard, Stan
Lennox, John
LoSasso, Gina Lynne
Macosko, Jed
Mallard, Bonnie
Mims, Forrest M. III
Minnich, Scott
Nelson, Paul
Palda, Filip
Peltzer, Edward T.
Plantinga, Alvin
Poenie, Martin
Puente, Carlos E.
Ratzsch, Del
Richards, Jay Wesley
Rickard, Terry
Roche, John
Ruys, Andrew
Schaefer, Henry F.
Schwartz, Jeffrey M.
Skell, Philip
Skiff, Frederick
Stephan, Karl D.
Sternberg, Richard
Tipler, Frank
Wells, Jonathan
Zoeller-Greer, Peter
See International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (2013).
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Vocal.Media
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09
Clergy-related sexual abuse has been a significant and problematic element of religious institutional conduct. From leadership conduct to political cover-up to institutional denial, it plagues the international religious community in an ongoing manner.
It bathes the laity with a dour expression about the moral legitimacy of their faith. It condemns the majority of innocent clergy with the broad brush blame of the minority of clergy who commit heinous acts, primarily pedophilic acts against young boys and sexual misconduct against adult women.
It does not exist solely within the confines of the Roman Catholic Church. It has a rich extent into other religions and other denominational faiths, including Eastern Orthodox Christianity. However, not all believers and advocates are silent, nor inactive in systematic justice efforts.
One such group is Prosopon Healing. A survivor and research-focused initiative. One working to address clergy-related abuse in Orthodoxy. They are a registered non-profit public benefit corporation—a professional corporation for compiling and reporting data while offering resources for survivors.
In August 2025, Prosopon healing launched the first database on clergy-related abuse in Orthodoxy in the world. It’s called The Orthodox Church Sexual Misconduct Database. It is an open-access aggregator of public information based on court filings, news publications, and official statements.
The Prosopon Healing methodology uses distinct categorizations for representing the data on clergy-perpetrated abuse. They have an Incident ID, name of the accused perpetrator, name of the institution, who is the overseeing bishop, and their role.
They continue with the parish/diocese/monastery/school, the outcome, the year of the abuse, the year reported, and then the state/country. It is a huge undertaking. Their current coverage spans more than 56 jurisdictions.
Prosopon Healing’s research team has a preliminary media/lawsuit sweep spanning 2002–present and found approximately 800 victims and over 250 accused clergy. These are explicitly characterized as undercounts given the rationale and patterns of underreporting.
Outside the U.S., most cases were within the Russian Orthodox Church. Within the U.S., most were affiliated with the Greek Orthodox Archdiocese of America. Gender patterns emerged. Child victims skewed male and adult victims skewed female.
Their methodology amounts to systematic web/legal-docket searches. They incorporated ChatGPT-assisted search-term generation only without auto-labelling. There was a human review of every article when extracting data properly.
The published inclusion criteria for the database were admissions, defrockings, institutional findings, legal complaints, resignations, and settlements. They incorporated an abuse-victim-centred approach.
All reporting to law enforcement should be the first step as well as conducting an independent, third-party investigation as a benchmark standard. There should be caution with processes done without third parties or done entirely internally via church processes. These have the capacity to retraumatize.
Prosopon Healing credits predecessors’ contribution to this initiative through Pokrov.org: Melanie Sakoda, Cappy Larson, and Greta Larson. Sakoda and Larson were foundational in the reporting work. There is ongoing analysis on Substack.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/16
Author Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this article are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization, institution, or entity with which the author may be affiliated, including Humanists International.
Diego Vargas, Project Manager of the Oniros Philosophie Foundation, discusses religious influence in Bogotá and Colombia. The Catholic Church illegally occupies public spaces, while Mennonite groups encroach on indigenous lands in Meta. Religious influence has shaped Colombia’s politics, with a history of church-led violence and right-wing dominance. The church also controls education, suppressing critical thinking. Apostasy faces bureaucratic barriers, with institutions favoring religious entities. Minority groups like LGBTI, Afro-descendants, and feminists often neglect secular activism. Vargas urges co-responsibility among these groups to counter religious dominance, emphasizing secularism’s role in defending human rights and social justice in Colombia.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Diego Vargas, the Project Manager of the Oniros Philosophie Foundation (Fundación Oniros Philosophie), out of Bogotá. Let’s talk about the issues targeted by OPF/FOP: How has the Catholic Church in Bogotá asserted itself into public spaces?
Diego A. Vargas: Despite the fact that the Political Constitution of Colombia of 1991 stipulates in article 63 that goods for public use are inalienable, imprescriptible and cannot be seized; The truth is that in the city of Bogotá alone there are 210 invasions of public spaces in parks, avenues and green areas.
The invasion dynamic they practice is that the diocese assigns a priest to a neighborhood without a church, and when he arrives in said neighborhood, he builds an illegal settlement without permits with sticks and boards, zinc tiles and polyshade; It must be clarified that this settlement has an illegal or pirate connection to the electricity service. And although there is an entity whose mission is to defend public space, called the Administrative Department for the Defense of Public Space (DADEP), neither this entity nor the mayor’s office apply the Law to recover public space.
People already assume and affirm that religion, and especially the Catholic Church, is above the Law, so much so that they do not pay any type of tax, much less property tax for land that was stolen.
Jacobsen: What practices by Mennonite groups in Meta are encroaching on public spaces?
Vargas: In recent years, Mennonite groups, coming mainly from the United States, have launched a colonialist invasion in the region of the eastern Colombian plains, and more specifically in the department of Meta. Since they have invaded lands, displaced indigenous communities, stolen lands using the legal loophole of “purchasing” under the figure of “third party in good faith”, and finally they are generating a problem of deforestation in the Colombian Orinoquía region.
All of this is, of course, part of the new forms of coloniality of power through the evangelical Christian religion, which at the time was denounced by the Latin American and of course South American thinker Enrique Dussel.
Jacobsen: How has the Catholic Church shaped political decision-making in Colombia?
Vargas: From 1886 to 1990, a theocratic, right-wing, conservative, anti-scientific and anti-progressive Political Constitution was implemented in Colombia; This meant that, for example, the country was consecrated to the “sacred heart of Jesus”, and even today a debt is being paid in perpetuity to the Vatican because during the mid-19th century a liberal government had expelled the Jesuit order from the country, annulling a previous concordat that was in effect during the mid-19th century and had expropriated assets from the unproductive hands of the church. And from that moment on, the dominance of the Catholic religion in politics was total; with a constitution that invoked and invokes God for everything, then the president attends a Tedeum when he takes office, if peace talks are going to be held with armed groups, the middle person is the church, in the history of Colombia there has only been one candidate atheist, the late Carlos Gaviria Díaz, who precisely lost the 2006 elections for having declared himself an atheist, and thus there are many things that define the dominance and interference of religion over politics since in each church, Catholic or evangelical, political proselytism is carried out, and in every hamlet, town, district or village there is a church, and since religion is right-wing, the right has always won and “demonizes” left-wing candidates by saying that they are atheists, so it took 157 years for the country to once again have a left-wing president who at least knows how to pronounce the word secularity; And all those years are the window of time that passed between the presidency of Tomás Cipriano de Mosquera and that of the current president of the republic Gustavo Petro Urrego.
Jacobsen: What are examples of how religious institutions have been connected with violence or paramilitarism in Colombian history?
Vargas: Since the creation of the Republic of Colombia, and only in the 19th century, religion caused 3 civil wars in which children were even used as soldiers: 1) The war of the convents or the supreme ones from 1839 to 1842, 2) The war of the schools from 1876 to 1877, 3) The war of a thousand days and the conservative regeneration from 1899 to 1902
But the issue does not stop there, since, in 2016, and with the sponsorship of the University of Berkeley, the Truth Commission generated an investigative and historical document on Human Rights called: “Cases of involvement of the church in the violence in Colombia – Input for the commission to clarify the truth”, and in said document 62 cases of violence caused by the Catholic Church between the 19th and 20th centuries are reported, apart from the 3 wars caused in the century XIX.
The most representative cases are encyclicals from the 19th century that invited liberals, Freemasons, socialists and atheists to be killed, under the declaration that killing these people was not a sin; For the 20th century, it is worth highlighting the preaching that generated bipartisan violence in which conservative believers killed liberals under the accusation of being atheists, also the formation of armed groups called “chulavitas”, then the formation of paramilitary groups with a religious vocation called “ the 12 apostles” and currently the presence of evangelical pastors who launder money from drug trafficking, among many other things that have caused alterity and difference to be annulled for those who They do not believe or practice a religion.
Jacobsen: How does the dominance of religious doctrine manifest in Colombian educational institutions?
Vargas: It happens that the Political Constitution of Colombia of 1991 indicates in its article 68 that in the educational establishments of the state no person will be forced to receive religious education, but in the General Law of Education (115 of 1994) stipulates in its article 23 that religion It is a mandatory and fundamental area of teaching, especially in State educational establishments. So although this is a contradiction and a clear violation of the Constitution, it is just the tip of the iceberg, because other things that show this predominance are that there are private administrators who have public schools under concession and in the city of Bogotá D.C., 80% of These are entities of the religious sector, the majority of universities in the private sector are Catholic and ultimately when we talk about religion classes we do not talk about the more than 4,200 existing religions and others that no longer exist, but rather that we only talk about teaching a religion, and this is the Catholic religion, so this teaching of religion is nothing more than a teaching of religious and right-wing indoctrination that expands in public and private education and that promotes discrimination. towards difference and otherness, the rejection of equity and of course trampling on progressive values and social justice.
Jacobsen: What effects might a single-religion focus in schools have on critical thinking among students?
Vargas: It has had negative effects, since students do not have the possibility of choosing and only know one religion, and this indoctrinates them towards right-wing thinking that does not contemplate diversity, difference, otherness and much less the multicultural and multi-ethnic character that enshrines the Political Constitution of Colombia of 1991 and even less Human Rights. So, if you talk about Yoruba religion and Orisha gods, society says that this is witchcraft and satanism, if you talk about indigenous spirituality, it is also demonized, if you talk about paganism they are ready to light the bonfire. So, the boys have no information or reference point to compare between religions, the monopoly that religion has in power, education and politics, and since they cannot compare with anything, they cannot reflect or criticize, and their thinking ends up being right-wing, submissive, doctrinaire and they replicate all of this with those around them.
Jacobsen: What administrative barriers do Colombians encounter when apostatizing from a religion?
Vargas: Well, it happens that the Catholic Church has a chancery for these issues, and at the beginning if people do not have knowledge of legal activism and strategic litigation they make them understand that they cannot apostatize, but if the person crosses that barrier they must overcome the fact that a city can be divided into up to 5 dioceses that depend on an archdiocese for land issues but not for administrative issues such as apostasy, then there is the problem that if the person was baptized far from a city capital, that is, in a town, you must go to that place to request the baptism certificate and then to verify that the footnote is made in the baptism books so that the apostasy becomes effective; There is also the inconvenience that they try to persuade the person who is trying to file his apostasy and subject him to a kind of uncomfortable “conversation” within a church and finally there is no formal certificate that shows whether the apostasy was effective, because they only give a generic answer using a template that says that the note of the apostasy was made in the baptism book and therefore you have to go to the parish in which the baptism was done to find out if it is true on a trip that It can be 2 hours a day and a half.
Jacobsen: How do religious organizations justify bureaucratic barriers?
Vargas: Well, neither the Ministry of the Interior nor the National Administrative Department of Statistics of Colombia (DANE) enforce the Law, nor the Human Rights regarding freedom and conscientious objection nor legal personality, since the first of these do not have this service of apostasy included within their services or procedures, but rather the service of linking Religious Entities and Organizations of the Religious Sector to monopolize Human Rights projects and the hoarding of resources and public money. And in the case of DANE, they consider religion as something sacred and untouchable and for that reason they never include in the censuses a question about religious affiliation that would undoubtedly open the debate on freedom of conscience and apostasy.
Jacobsen: Why are minority groups such as LGBTI, Afro-descendants, indigenous, and feminists seen as fracturing broader secular activism efforts?
Vargas: This has occurred because the differential and rights-based approach has been transformed into a preferential and fascist approach, this is because there are many people in public life who belong to the LGBTI community and are right-wing and fascist (uribistas); In Bogotá D.C., we had a lesbian and right-wing mayor who ordered the police to beat women, there is also a representative of the chamber (bicameral congress of Colombia) who is homosexual and Afro-descendant, but who at the same time denies the massacres, forced displacements and extrajudicial executions in the government of former president Álvaro Uribe and labels left-wing people as guerrillas, but the irony is that these two characters totally believers.
There is another group of academic feminists who constantly attack figures in left-wing public and political life who fight to defend the rights of the population, but they never speak or defend secularism, and they have never supported bills that seek to make churches pay taxes. And in short, both feminism and the LGBTI community in Colombia are apathetic regarding the defense of secularism and expect us atheists to attend their marches, but they never support either the legal and constitutional actions or the sit-ins or marches that we atheists call for; So in short, it is a toxic and harmful relationship that does not respond with co-responsibility towards secularism, and on the contrary they make us look bad because the only activism they do is paint a church with graffiti while showing their breasts or throw Molotov cocktails at their doors without it being clear to public opinion why they do it, and it ends up generating the generalized opinion that those of us who are not linked to any church are almost vandals.
Jacobsen: What strategies can secular activists employ to foster productive collaboration with LGBTI, Afro-descendant, indigenous, and feminist groups to strengthen the secular movement?
Vargas: First of all, there must be co-responsibility and equitable cooperation between these social movements and the fight for secularism, and for this the LGBTI community must stop seeking acceptance in a conservative society that will never fully admit them even though they want to show fascist behavior; Afro-descendants would have to understand that Christianity was the godfather of slavery and include secularism within the themes of the African diaspora, or at least return to its roots in the Yoruba religion; The indigenous people must take into account that indigenous spirituality no longer exists and now, through syncretism, they ended up being evangelical natives and finally, feminists must support freedom more and not conservatively judge other women who are not feminists or excluding men from gender issues without understanding that this does not solve anything but analyze that religion is the cause of historical and current violence against women.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Diego.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/13
Matt Dillahunty is an American atheist activist, public speaker, and former president of the Atheist Community of Austin (ACA). Born on March 31, 1969, in Kansas City, Missouri, he was raised in a Southern Baptist household and served in the U.S. Navy from 1987 to 1995. Initially pursuing a career in Christian ministry, extensive study and reflection led him to atheism. From 2005 to October 2022, he hosted The Atheist Experience, engaging in live call-in discussions on religion and skepticism. Dillahunty co-founded the counter-apologetics wiki Iron Chariots, lectures widely, and shares content on his YouTube and Twitch streams.
Dillahunty discussed his 20-year journey in online activism, which began after questioning his Christian beliefs post-9/11. He transitioned to hosting The Atheist Experience, growing to challenge common theistic arguments and build community conversations. Dillahunty noted that debates often recycled familiar arguments and highlighted the difficulty of changing beliefs through single engagements. He also discussed the decline in atheist conventions, increased political focus, and funding challenges within secular organizations. He acknowledged parasocial dynamics, branding, and personal experiences, emphasizing mission over monetary gain and reflecting on community development and internal conflicts.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Matt Dillahunty, a prominent voice in atheism and commentary, particularly in North America. You have been doing this for many years and have been on the scene for a long time. I was probably not even born then, so that’s the first question: How long have you been doing this?
Matt Dillahunty: I’ve been involved in online work where people would recognize my contributions for about 20 years, give or take.
Jacobsen: What prompted that transition to online work and gaining more visibility for what you do?
Dillahunty: I started finding my way out of my religious background around 2001, along with many others after 9/11, although my journey had begun years earlier in different ways. After about a year and a half of intense prayer and study, I realized I didn’t have good reasons for my Christian beliefs. However, I also lacked a comprehensive understanding of the relevant subjects to determine whether any other god might exist. This led to a lengthy process of exploration, learning, and developing a foundation of skepticism grounded in philosophy.
During that period, I was learning a lot online. The first time anyone heard about me was when I was writing counter-sermons for an e-magazine that was self-published to around 50 people. This magazine had an editor who allowed dissenting views. One contributor, who wrote under the pseudonym “SkipToMaloo” (though I don’t remember exactly how it was spelled, as this was over 20 years ago), would post a sermon based on a specific passage and share their interpretation.
On the same day, I would take that same passage, present an alternative analysis, and highlight which parts were justified, sophistry, and potentially incorrect. Essentially, it was a skeptical critique of everything they posted. This work eventually led someone to suggest I watch The Atheist Experience show.
At first, I questioned why I would want to watch a show featuring people I already agreed with. They clarified that it was a call-in show that regularly featured discussions with people who held opposing views. Initially, I ignored the suggestion. Coincidentally, Jeff Dee, one of the cohosts, lived in the same apartment complex as I did and had posted a flyer for the show in the mailbox. One Sunday, about an hour before the show was set to air, I checked my mail, saw the flyer, and decided to see what it was about.
I watched the show and even called in that day. They invited me to dinner afterward, and I attended. A week later, I was screening calls for the show. Then, in March 2004, I worked in the studio when Jeff Dee didn’t show up. I had written an article about a First Amendment case involving Ten Commandments monuments. Hence, Russell Glasser, the host, then asked me if I wanted to discuss it on air. I agreed, and from that point on, I became a regular host and did the show for 17 years before stepping down.
I’m working with The Line on YouTube, doing a Wednesday night show. It’s much more politically focused than the Sunday shows and any additional shows we may do, so I’m working more than ever.
Jacobsen: The common phrase is that you cannot talk people out of their beliefs. In your experience, over two decades of taking calls, how much of that is a myth?
Dillahunty: Well, the one I hear frequently is, “You can’t reason someone out of something they weren’t reasoned into.” While that may be true, it’s also trivial because everyone was reasoned into everything they believed. Everything you believe is the result of a reasoned conclusion, though it may be bad reasoning or flawed reasoning.
There may also be protective mechanisms in place that make a typical conversation about what evidence would be required less impactful for some people. The reality is that there are people who may never change their minds and others who can. I must learn to tell those groups’ differences without engaging with them. It often isn’t a single engagement—one conversation with me isn’t going to change someone’s religion. They may need to hear it multiple times, in various ways, from different people. Until we develop some mechanism to identify those who will never change their minds, they’re worth engaging with.
Jacobsen: Over two decades of taking calls, what trends have you noticed regarding the ebbs and flows of atheist conversations and the objections you receive?
Dillahunty: One of the things I’ve noticed over the years is that these conversations are cyclical. An argument will become popular for a while, and we’ll get many calls about the Kalam cosmological argument. We go through it, debunk it, and then it falls out of favour for a year or so. Then, callers move on to other topics, like the anthropic principle, moral arguments, or questions about the foundation of logic. They cycle through these arguments to see which ones are more popular at the time. This has happened repeatedly during the 20 years I’ve been doing this. It’s happened since the beginning of such discussions.
At no point in those 20 years has anyone presented a novel argument backed by good evidence. That’s all it would take for me to believe—solid evidence. It doesn’t have to be a new argument; it could be a variation of one we’ve already discussed a million times but with new evidence or a fresh understanding.
Jacobsen: What happens when discussions get heated? What kind of epithets have been directed at you, your cohosts, or the atheist community in general?
Dillahunty: I understand that people take these things personally. When you say you don’t believe in their God, some perceive it as an attack on their character, even when it’s not. I’m quite free to handle these situations—I give as much as possible. If people are being dishonest or aggressive, I’m comfortable raising my voice or even name-calling if that’s the conversation’s direction. The alternative is allowing someone to bully you into not objecting to something on legitimate grounds. What I never do is present bad-faith arguments.
I’m always willing to try and teach, and I exercise a good deal of patience. But you can’t do this for 20 years without it getting heated sometimes. The actual threats launched at us are fewer and farther between. There have been a handful of times when we’ve had to call the FBI over death threats, but most of the time, it’s just, “I’m going to come down there and punch you in your face for Jesus,” or homophobic and sexist slurs.
It’s a constant stream of the worst aspects of machismo bro culture. I don’t know the perfect language to describe it. Still, I graduated from high school in 1987. I joined the military, so I’m familiar with hazing and name-calling, where it’s meant in camaraderie and where it’s meant as genuine hostility. What we get is more of the latter—people who feel embarrassed because they couldn’t make a strong enough argument for their religion or because they witnessed someone with similar views being publicly embarrassed.
That sense of embarrassment is sometimes a goal because people are less likely to change their minds once they’ve made a public commitment. When I speak with a caller on the show, I always say what I think should change their mind or allow them to present a strong case for their position. Sometimes, they succeed, and sometimes, they don’t, but providing that opportunity is crucial.
Jacobsen: What happens when you give them that chance, and they lash out instead?
Dillahunty: They lash out due to frustration from being unable to prove what they believe is true and real, even if it seems intuitively obvious. You often hear simplistic arguments like, “Look at the trees—only God can make a tree,” or, “I’m no monkey’s uncle.” These are baseline arguments rooted more in emotion and a lack of understanding of science, epistemology, and critical thinking.
Jacobsen: Have you ever convinced someone to live during a call? I suspect it has happened, but what is the nature of those moments?
Dillahunty: It does happen, but less often than you’d think. Sometimes, someone says, “That’s a good point; I hadn’t thought of that,” or, “Okay, you changed my mind on that, but let me think about the rest.” I’ve also had emails from thousands of people saying the show changed their minds, but I don’t wonder if it happened during the show. These realizations don’t usually occur when someone is in the spotlight; it takes time for them to reflect afterward.
Jacobsen: So, in public settings or during family dinners, when these conversations come up, even when people don’t want to have them, do they still happen?
Dillahunty: The initial conversation might lead to something other than an immediate change, but it plants a seed. People need time to process and reflect, leading to deeper consideration and potential change later on.
Jacobsen: What are your suggestions for having, at a minimum, an amicable conversation when it does come up?
Dillahunty: The important thing to remember is that you don’t owe anyone an explanation for who you are or what you believe. In daily life, you get to be yourself and think what you think without having to justify it to anyone. You must participate honestly and openly if you engage in a conversation. If you reach a point where someone asks a difficult question you don’t have an answer to, you can pause the conversation at any time and say, “That’s a good point. I want to think about that and get back to you.” Then, reflect on it and follow up because you should do what you say you will do.
If you find yourself overwhelmed—where you’re confronted with too many new ideas, unfamiliar terminology, or different interpretations of concepts—it’s okay to acknowledge that. For example, when someone uses terms like “reasonable” or “logical,” it’s important to clarify definitions. People often throw these words around casually, and I used to get frustrated when “logic” was used as if it was subjective, like “your logic” or “a logical line of thought.” But in reality, something is either reasonable or it isn’t. Establishing shared definitions and agreeing on terms is key.
More importantly, agree on how you could conclude. For instance, if one person believes in God and the other doesn’t, can you agree on a method to determine whether God is real? Discuss the method until there’s agreement. If agreement isn’t reached, the issue isn’t the belief in God itself but the methods of reasoning that led to that belief.
Jacobsen: What arguments do you find are the most carefully thought-out among theists when you receive calls?
Dillahunty: That’s an interesting question because there are two aspects to consider: how well-thought-out the argument is by the person who originally crafted it and how well the person presenting it understands it. One of the first things I determine is whether the caller comprehends their argument.
Jacobsen: Good point. You mentioned you’re busier than ever. Given the significant changes in the media landscape over the past few decades, where do you see the main channels for atheist conversation, media, and opinion writing now?
Dillahunty: I’m not the best person to answer that because I don’t spend much time-consuming atheist media, including content from some of my friends and colleagues. I used to joke with DJ Grothe when we were both running podcasts simultaneously—he was hosting CFI’s Point of Inquiry podcast, and we’re both from Missouri. He’s a younger, gayer, possibly more attractive version of me, but we share similar skeptic and atheist perspectives. We were doing these shows together, and we’re both magicians. I remember sitting at an event once, showing him card tricks.
And he said, “Hey, I wanted to tell you that I love what I’ve heard from your work.” But then he added, “I don’t get a chance to listen to much of what you do.” I replied, “Don’t feel bad about it. I don’t get to listen to much of what you do either.”
I don’t sit around listening to podcasts. I used to, but I eventually stopped, giving myself the excuse that I wanted to be authentically me. I didn’t want to unconsciously mirror someone else’s thoughts or hear a podcast that sparked an idea and then repeat it similarly. I’ve had people blatantly plagiarize my content and pass it off as their own. And when called out, their response has been, “Well, I’m not doing peer-reviewed research, so it doesn’t matter if I cite Matt as a source. My fans won’t care anyway,” because, for many, it’s become about fan bases.
Though this will change, I’ve never made a penny from my personal YouTube channel. I have over 100,000 subscribers, and while the channel is monetized and there’s money available, I haven’t been paid for any of it, nor have I taken any ad deals. Now, I get paid for my work on The Line and receive Patreon support for my content. Those are contributions from supporters who believe in my work and help fund its production. I will be taking revenue from YouTube because it would be foolish to leave the money untouched when needed. But the point is that fans and money were never my original goal. I had a day job when I started this before transitioning into full-time atheist activism. I donated all my vacation time and life savings to ensure I could travel, speak, produce content, and teach because the mission was always the most important thing.
Jacobsen: Are you seeing an increase in quasi-personality cults or branding based on one’s atheist identity?
Dillahunty: Yes, it’s happening more and more, much like how various atheist organizations have grown and split apart, developing their focuses and divisions. I used to joke that when Atheist Alliance International split into Atheist Alliance International and Atheist Alliance of America, people would say, “Great, now we have the Second Baptist Church of atheism or something.” However, the positive aspect is that the movement has grown enough to support different focuses and directives while maintaining the overarching goals. It is a split in the sense of being against each other but a way of dividing focus while working toward shared, unified objectives.
As I watch these changes, the cult of personality will always exist. There will always be individuals trying to build a brand. Once people started making money on YouTube, I saw that firsthand—even though I hadn’t received payment directly, I ran an organization that paid five employees using content I produced for free. Now, I see some tribalism, where people say, “That person I want to listen to.” I’m exempt from this. There are Matt Dillahunty fans and stans who, frankly, would probably annoy me if I met them in person.
Some people have problematic parasocial relationships. But when it comes to the mission, I noticed that even before the pandemic, there was already a decline in the number of atheist conventions in the U.S. There was a time when I was speaking at a local or national event every month or two. That has changed, and it isn’t just because of the pandemic. It could be because we have bigger political issues to address, even though I have recently shifted my focus toward political matters.
Jacobsen: What are the major disagreements within the American freethought community?
Dillahunty: Money. I’m on the board of directors for American Atheists, and I’m friends with people in other organizations where I’m on the board. Churches and religious organizations are incredibly well-funded, and it takes much money to keep secular organizations running. Even The Line network, which benefits all of us, requires funding for employees and operational costs. This work has a business aspect, especially in the system we use around it.
Suppose someone donates $1,000,000 to one organization and $100,000 to another. In that case, there can be disputes, sometimes even lawsuits, about why funds are not distributed equally or differing opinions on their use. By the time the money is allocated to organizations, a portion is already gone due to legal fees, and more fees can follow. This leads to ideological disagreements—one group might prioritize Supreme Court First Amendment cases, and another might focus on community outreach. At the same time, a third emphasizes national policy and politics.
Everyone thinks their focus is the most important. When one organization is thriving and another isn’t, it’s easier to criticize than to work on improving one’s efforts. I often say, “Work on the lawn on your side of the fence instead of pointing out the weeds in mine.” Ultimately, we’re the same property, and we all benefit when the grass is green everywhere.
Jacobsen: Matt, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate it.
Dillahunty: No problem. Take care. Later.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/30
Author Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this article are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization, institution, or entity with which the author may be affiliated, including Humanists International.
Dr. Leo Igwe, a Nigerian human rights advocate and humanist, recounted the international efforts to secure the release of Mubarak Bala, a prominent ex-Muslim and humanist arrested for alleged “blasphemy”. Igwe detailed the challenges in advocating for Bala’s release, including navigating Nigeria’s complex legal system, mobilizing international organizations such as Humanists International, Amnesty International, and the UN, and countering misinformation campaigns. Despite resistance from Kano police and authorities, Igwe’s legal and advocacy teams employed a strategic approach, leveraging diplomatic pressure and media coverage. Initially sentenced to 25 years, Bala’s term was reduced to five years on appeal, a significant achievement given Nigeria’s Sharia-influenced legal landscape. The case also exposed cracks and fragilities within the atheist/humanist community, with opportunists attempting to exploit the situation for personal gain, spreading misinformation, and launching smear campaigns against Igwe and his colleagues. Igwe emphasized the importance of institutional support, credible networks, and verification mechanisms in future advocacy efforts. In conclusion, Igwe expressed gratitude to global humanists, legal teams, and international partners who remained steadfast in the campaign, ensuring that Mubarak Bala was not forgotten and ultimately freed.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Once more, we’re here with Dr. Leo Igwe. He is calling from Ibadan, Nigeria, while I am calling from a small town about two and a half hours east of downtown Vancouver, in the far West of Canada. It is cold here, so I am sitting by the fireplace. Let’s continue—no introduction is necessary. How do you approach informing the international community about cases like Mubarak Bala and others?
Dr. Leo Igwe: We are a small organization here, even though there are many non-religious and religiously indifferent people. The case of Mubarak Bala was quite unusual because it was beyond our capacity to handle.
A few days before his arrest, I was notified that he was receiving threats from various individuals who were offended by his Facebook posts. I called him, and we discussed the situation. He told me he would try to neutralize the threats, and I suggested he report the matter to the police. However, he said doing so would worsen things because the police would side with those threatening him.
That was the last conversation we had on the matter. Two or three days later, I received a call informing me that the police had taken him into custody and that we needed to do everything we could to secure his release or at least ensure his safety. Honestly, I was completely confused and distressed.
I immediately began making desperate calls to the police in Kaduna, where he was living. I remember speaking with the police commissioner, who said it was not their case. He explained that the Kano police had issued a directive for his arrest and that they would transfer him there.
We were deeply concerned that transferring him to Kano might mean we would never see him again. I attempted to reach the station where he was being held and managed to speak with him for a few seconds before the phone was taken from him. That was the last time we talked for months.
After his transfer, we called the police in Kano, but they claimed they had no information. When we contacted the police in Kaduna, they said they had already handed him over to the Kano authorities. This was how they kept misleading us, passing responsibility from one place to another.
At that point, I realized the situation was beyond my control. I decided to inform the international community. I sent a message to Humanists International and reached out to all my contacts—atheists, freethinkers, and human rights advocates. I explained the situation and urged them to take action.
I felt that if they could disappear him and get away with it, it would be a devastating blow to our efforts to grow the humanist community. I did everything I could to ensure he would not be harmed. We were gravely concerned that he would be disappeared, as has happened to many others in similar circumstances. Often, when someone is arrested for “blasphemy”, they vanish, and nothing is ever heard of them again.
I was distraught, not only for his safety but also for the future of our movement. Without delay, I contacted my lawyer, a humanist who has worked closely with us. I told him, “We are in serious trouble. “What happened next?
It was during the lockdown, and there were severe restrictions on movement. Everyone was indoors, and people could barely move around within their communities. There was no interstate movement—you could not travel from one state to another.
So, we had to gather contacts and lawyers from different states—Kaduna, Kano, and Abuja. We worked to get these contacts to help us pressure the authorities. Luckily, within a few days, we could put together what we called a legal team.
Yes, but I knew this was not a legal issue. “blasphemy” cases are more political than legal. That was why I also contacted NGOs and other organizations. I wrote to Amnesty International and Human Rights Watch.
I contacted various embassies, particularly those of the EU, the United States, and the United Kingdom, and messaged them. However, I received an extraordinary response and support from Humanists International.
And I must tell you this—not because I am a board member, but because I have over 20 years of experience working and navigating this risky terrain.
So, what I said was that Humanists International responded immediately, publicized the events, and rallied around us. The immediate question was, “What do you need?”
We told them that we needed to have a legal team in place and use our platform to advocate and make noise because that was precisely what the people who arrested him did not want. They wanted him silenced, and anything about him silenced so they could determine his fate.
What they did not and would not have wanted was for anyone to talk about him, make noise, or raise awareness about the case. With Humanists International’s support, we could do precisely that. The case went global, and many organizations, including the UN and international NGOs, got involved. Embassies also took action—they called and checked in with us daily to track progress.
Jacobsen: So, you’re contacting the UN and Human Rights Watch and sending letters and emails to Amnesty International. You’re also using resources such as a humanist lawyer you have worked with before, someone who understands both you and the situation’s complexities.
What strategies worked? What strategies did not? To someone reading this without context, it might seem like you were shotgunning any possible support system. But there was a method to it, even though, in emergency mode, you were essentially scrambling.
Igwe: Yes. The idea of spreading the news worldwide and involving the international community worked—it helped put pressure on the authorities.
But we did not succeed in everything. First, we wanted to prevent him from being taken to Kano, and we failed. When we got the police involved and willing to act, he had already been transferred to Kano.
We also tried to ensure that the Kano police were responsive in telling us where he was being held. Still, we were met with silence and dismissal of our inquiries.
Our efforts to prevent his disappearance immediately failed because the police and the government in Kano did not respond to our requests.
They did not attend to us. They largely ignored us, and I want to emphasize that they ignored the world for a long time.
Even with all the pressure from the EU, the U.S. embassies, and other diplomatic efforts, they held him for six months before officially acknowledging that he was in their custody. So, it was not as though we rallied all these agencies, and they immediately secured his release. No, it took us over four years for him to finally be free.
Many of the pressures we applied were either met with resistance or ignored. However, we persisted, leveraging international agencies, the UN office, and the UN Special Rapporteur on Freedom of Religion, who was supportive. It was through them that we learned, months later, that he was still alive. We discovered he was being kept in a private cell in Kano.
Even the EU embassies played a role in confirming that he was alive. They signalled to us that he had not been killed but was still being detained. It took considerable time before some of our efforts started yielding results, primarily in confirming his safety. Eventually, the authorities responded to demands that he be released or brought to trial, as required by law.
Jacobsen: How did the global response influence advocacy efforts? You touched on that a bit. I’m particularly interested in cases where there was a complete deadlock—where no progress could be made. Were there instances where people were listening and trying to help, but it was too late, or they were blocked due to a lack of resources or because they had more pressing cases to handle? Also, regarding individuals, I am aware that the prominent and highly respected literary intellectual Wole Soyinka commented on this case. What role did such figures play?
Igwe: Yes.
In the beginning, we mobilized everything we could. We sent letters to organizations, individuals, and prominent Nigerian politicians. We contacted former presidents, urging them to pressure the government for his release.
Wole Soyinka and other respected figures got involved. These efforts aimed to rally prominent, outspoken, and respected individuals to pressure the authorities in Kano and the federal government to release him or ensure his safety. But it took an immense amount of time.
This did not happen automatically. It shows how strong the establishment behind his arrest was and how unwilling they were to relent or yield to international pressure.
We faced significant challenges from the start. One key difficulty was overcoming the authorities’ resistance, as they were determined to suppress any external intervention.
In addition, I did not even know Mubarak Bala well. We live in the same country, but I was studying overseas then. I returned in 2017. While I was abroad, I heard about his decision to come out as an ex-Muslim, and we met on only one or two occasions. So, I knew him as an ex-Muslim, and that was it.
Some people forget that even within the secular and humanist community, we may not always know each other well. Finding the right people to work with when he was arrested became another challenge. There is a concept in some Islamic communities called Taqiyya, which refers to religious dissimulation or concealment. Some individuals were suspected of pretending to be atheists to infiltrate secular networks and pass information to religious authorities.
There was concern that some of those engaging in Taqiyya had infiltrated Mubarak’s network, gathered information, and reported him to the authorities. This added another layer of difficulty because, at that time, we were under lockdown due to the pandemic. We had to rely solely on phone calls, emails, and Facebook messages to coordinate efforts. Still, we had no real way of verifying who was trustworthy.
Given that we were trying to save a life and ensure that Mubarak suffered no harm, we were willing to work with anyone who could help. However, knowing whom to trust was extremely difficult in a case as sensitive as “blasphemy”.
Jacobsen: What were the key steps in bringing together the legal team with the advocacy team so that the advocacy team could inform the legal team about the critical points of the case, and then the legal team could develop a case in defence of Mubarak?
Igwe: Yes. This was another critical task we faced at the time.
Assembling the legal and advocacy teams happened organically—slowly and steadily—because we had to act with extreme caution. First and foremost, we had to find lawyers we could trust. This is something that many people later criticized. Some claimed, “Oh, you hired your friends.” But in this situation, you cannot hire people that you know little about. You cannot put out a job announcement asking, Who would like to take up a “blasphemy” case? In Nigeria, “blasphemy” is a highly sensitive issue, and many lawyers refuse to touch it out of fear.
So, we had to find lawyers we could rely on. I contacted the lawyers within our humanist network—people already working with us. We connected with James Ibor, a lawyer already engaged in human rights work. We tasked him with finding other trustworthy lawyers to build a solid legal team. It was a snowball approach, where one trusted contact led to another.
The same principle applied to the advocacy team. We had to work with organizations and agencies we knew genuinely supported our cause. Otherwise, there was always the risk of sharing information with someone who would leak it to those on the other side. Trust was crucial in bringing together the legal and advocacy teams. That trust was also why, even when strange developments emerged later, we could keep the case together and remain unified in our mission to secure Mubarak’s release.
Of course, as the case gained more publicity, more people wanted to get involved. At a certain point, numerous organizations wanted to take credit for what had become a high-profile case. That created additional challenges because, as soon as the case became widely known on social media, different groups started making statements about it.
Then something else happened. Lawyers I had never met started reaching out, saying, “We have experience in cases like this. We want to take over Mubarak’s defence.” My response was, Take over which case? I did not know these lawyers—I had never met them, I did not know their credibility, and I had no idea whether people had sent some of them on the other side to derail our efforts.
I was firm in rejecting their involvement. Some of them retaliated by going online and blackmailing me, attacking my choices, and claiming that Mubarak had not been released because I had hired “incompetent” lawyers. Instead of recognizing that we were up against a deeply entrenched and fanatical jihadist system, they tried to shift the blame onto us.
These individuals were not genuinely interested in the case; they saw it as an opportunity to attach themselves to a celebrity case. They wanted to ride the wave of attention it was getting. I say this because there have been other “blasphemy” cases in Nigeria, such as Deborah Samuel and Elijah the Barber, and these same lawyers showed no interest in those cases. Yet, suddenly, they wanted to take over Mubarak’s defence from the legal counsel leading the team.
The same thing happened with the advocacy efforts. Many organizations suddenly wanted to be involved.
During that period, someone started an organization called the Religious Freedom Foundation. Another person launched a humanist organization out of nowhere. I had never met him before, but he claimed they were also interested in the campaign. Suddenly, people were getting involved in the push to release Mubarak, and I asked, “Where have you all been all this time?”
That was when things started taking a different turn. Some of these groups began spreading accusations, saying that we were raising money but using it for ourselves instead of helping Mubarak, who was in jail. This led to a smear campaign that hurt deeply. Some people even tried to discredit Humanists International (HI). One online contact went so far as to say they would take HI to court.
Jacobsen: Yes, that is so stupid. It feels like something that might even work.
Igwe: They were making random, careless statements about HI and how the case was handled. But the most frustrating part was that they were unwilling to call out the jihadist sentiments and religious extremism that were central to the case.
Instead of focusing on the real issue—the religious fundamentalism that led to Mubarak’s arrest—they started attacking those of us defending him. We suddenly became the target of accusations because we had established a strong legal defence and raised the case profile.
They acted as if the money we raised should have been handed directly to Mubarak as if we could walk into his prison cell and put cash in his pocket. However, advocacy requires lobbying, travel, and meetings with key stakeholders. That is how we built momentum.
Humanists International ran a fantastic campaign. If you look at their work today, their efforts on “blasphemy” cases are unprecedented. The way we handled Mubarak’s case set a new standard. I also used the opportunity to raise awareness and send a strong message: Do not do this again.
Despite our efforts, some still tried to undermine us.
They assumed that we did not have the resources to mount a strong legal defence or carry out effective advocacy. But we surprised them.
As soon as they realized the scale of our efforts, the blackmail began. They said, “Oh, we didn’t understand—you have the money to hire one lawyer and an entire legal team. You have the funds to escalate the case to the UN. You have the resources and the influence.” Once they recognized this, opportunists appeared from nowhere, trying to insert themselves into the case.
I told them, “Look, there are other “blasphemy” cases. There are other people in need—why don’t you take up one of those cases?” But they weren’t interested. They wanted to attach themselves to our case, which had gained international attention. Despite these pressures, Humanists International held its ground. Slowly and steadily, we managed to fend off these distractions and eventually secured Mubarak’s release.
However, I also want to highlight an important point—some of the people who led smear campaigns against Humanists International and myself were the same people who had privately approached me, pretending to offer help. One of them was a lawyer based in the UK. He contacted me and said, “Look, I’m in the UK. I can go to the office of Humanists UK and tell them whatever I want. I can make them take action to secure Mubarak’s release.”
I responded, “Who are you?” He introduced himself, and I told him, “If you want to help, work with the existing legal team.” But he refused. He kept going back and forth, never actually committing to anything productive. Instead, he went online and started spreading propaganda, fueling a smear campaign.
What frustrated me the most was seeing a few atheists/humanists in the UK buy into this propaganda. These were people who had my contact information. I was available 24 hours a day—I was accessible during those moments, even now. They could have reached out to me or contacted HI office, but instead, they chose to spread false narratives.
It became clear that their goal was not to help but to discredit me, smear my work, and undermine everything we did. That is when I lost patience.
When I realized that there were people in the UK who called themselves humanists or atheists yet bought into this propaganda, I was deeply disappointed. These were people who had my email. I was available 24 hours a day—I had been accessible throughout those critical moments, and even now, they could still reach me.
They could have contacted the HI office as well, but instead, they chose to spread misinformation. It seemed as though they were looking for an opportunity to discredit my work—to smear me, slander me, and undermine everything I was doing. That was where I felt the most disappointment. These people knew little or nothing about the situation and did not understand the complexities we were dealing with. Yet, they went online and wrote petitions against me.
That truly hurt me. I felt deeply let down. But, of course, Humanists International handled the situation professionally, and it did not stop us from continuing our work.
Let me also add that one of the individuals involved in this smear campaign was a woman who, after we had generated a great deal of international support for Mubarak’s case, suddenly claimed that she, too, had been accused of “blasphemy”. She said she needed to relocate overseas.
Now, I understand that immigration issues are sensitive in Europe. However, we must also balance those considerations with our realities. She reached out to various groups in Europe and the U.S., trying to secure help. She attempted to further her agenda by leveraging Mubarak’s and Deborah Samuel’s cases. This was a complex case for us to assess. We asked her to provide evidence of the accusation, but she could not substantiate her claim. She stated that the police were looking for her. I asked, “Which police department?” In Nigeria, officers are assigned to specific stations, which follow a structure.
Then, at one point, she sent out an alarmist message, claiming that the police had surrounded her house. Concerned, we tried to call her, but she did not pick up. Later, she sent us a budget, saying she needed financial assistance to relocate from Borno State—where Boko Haram militants were active—to the capital, Abuja.
She initially requested $2,000 and then increased her demand to $4,000. I asked, “$4,000 for what?” She claimed she needed police protection and clearance as part of the budget. That immediately struck me as suspicious.
I told her, “The police are supposedly looking for you. They want to arrest you. You say you are accused of “blasphemy”, yet now you plan to use part of this budget to secure police protection and clearance to travel from Borno to Abuja?” It was utterly contradictory and made no sense to me.
At that point, I dismissed her case. It became clear that some people were opportunists trying to take advantage of the situation. While we were struggling to secure the release of someone who had been locked up and disappeared, there were others—completely free—who were attempting to exploit the case for their gain.
She went online. When she realized I disapproved of her claim. She launched a smear campaign against Humanists International and me. Shockingly, a few ‘humanists and atheists’ joined her in attacking us.
And these were people who were either my Facebook friends, people who knew me, had met me, or could have easily reached out to me. Yet, they never contacted me. Instead, they joined the smear campaign without understanding what was happening.
We always try to manage these situations, but this experience showed me that anyone can become embroiled in such attacks. In cases like this, when dealing with such a sensitive issue, if you know someone well and belong to the community, you reach out. Some people did that. They sent me a message asking, “Hey, what is happening?”
In response, I would forward them the correspondence I had with the woman claiming she was accused of “blasphemy”. That alone would settle the issue. When some of these people confronted her directly, she changed her stance. She said, “This is a sensitive case involving classified information.”
I told her. It was not classified. You went online to attack Humanists International and to attack me personally. You approached us seeking relocation and funding, yet you could not substantiate your case. What exactly is that?
We will always face challenges in our quest to grow and carry out high-profile advocacy campaigns. That is why we must have mechanisms to handle such issues and prevent opportunists from distracting us or derailing our efforts.
Jacobsen: Yes, exactly. That is what this is.
People should understand—I have interviewed many humanists over the years, and to be honest, it may surprise some, but there are not that many scammers. A few people might loosely claim the title and try to grift. Still, they are usually not actively involved in the community.
Most of the time, they operate as standalone individuals rather than being embedded within humanist networks. Regarding actual scammers who were successful, I can only recall one case off the top of my head. That person was quickly exposed, condemned, and effectively disappeared from humanist activism, media, and discussion.
What you describe sounds like a reflection of broader societal trends creeping into the humanist movement. Opportunism is typical in general culture, but within international humanism, it is rare to find real scammers—let alone successful ones. At least, that is what I have observed when speaking with humanists worldwide.
All right, let’s move on to the next question.
What is the process of filing petitions with the police and courts in Nigeria? Does it differ between Kaduna, Kano, Abuja, or Ibadan, or is it mostly the same throughout the country?
Igwe: The process is generally the same for cases like “blasphemy”. However, in sensitive situations like this, we must always be cautious. “Where do you file the petition? Who files it?”
The safety of those filing these cases is a significant concern, so we had to carefully decide where to file petitions with the police or bring cases to court. We chose Abuja, the capital because Islamist and jihadist influence is much weaker there than in Kano. Moving the case away from Kano was a strategic decision.
Of course, some people criticized this approach. However, our reasoning was clear—if we were to challenge them, we would not do it where they held significant power and influence. Instead, we took the case to a jurisdiction where federal and international institutions could provide support. That is why, in cases like this, it is always advisable to file legal actions in places where extremist groups have less control.
Therefore, one of the cases we filed was in Abuja instead of Kano.
Jacobsen: Were there difficulties in shifting the case from Kano to Abuja?
Igwe: Yes.
Filing a case in Abuja was not difficult. However, getting Kano authorities to honour the judgment was a different challenge. A court in Abuja could issue a ruling, but enforcing that judgment required additional effort.
This is where we leveraged diplomatic pressure. We engaged with diplomats and the UN to push for the enforcement of the ruling, which stated that he should either be tried in court or released. That was a key outcome of the Abuja judgment.
Another major challenge came after his conviction—securing his transfer from Kano to Abuja Prison. That required making a strong case because, in many ways, transferring him to Abuja was like letting him go halfway.
While in Kano, the authorities had total control over him. They could treat him however they wanted in court, without external interference. However, once he was transferred to Abuja, his situation changed significantly. He gained access to a phone, WhatsApp, and communication tools that had been ultimately denied to him in Kano.
It was a long process, but we worked to bring in the National Human Rights Commission and other friendly agencies to assist us in ensuring a smooth and secure transfer from Kano Prison to Abuja Prison.
His transfer to Abuja was the first real sign that his release was possible. Once we successfully moved him out of Kano, we felt that there was a real chance of securing his freedom.
So, while the process was extremely challenging, we relied on diplomatic channels and international support to make it happen.
Jacobsen: I mean, we’ve seen different types of disappearances—both real and faux disappearances, depending on the case. In some cases, there is no disappearance at all.
For example, take the case of Gaspár Bekes. His professional and personal life has been impacted, but as far as I know, he does not require security. That represents one category of humanist persecution, where the individual faces difficulties but remains relatively safe.
Then, moving from Western Europe to an Indian case, we have Narendra Nayak, who requires security (removed at the moment). However, his situation has not involved faux disappearance—his life is at risk, but he has remained visible.
Then there are cases like Gulalai Ismail, where an individual goes into hiding for security reasons. In her case, her entire family faced persecution—her father, Mohammad Ismail, her sister Saba, and Gulalai herself. Initially, nobody knew her whereabouts. Only a few people knew what had happened; months later, she surfaced in New York. She was eventually featured in The New York Times multiple times.
This represents a “faux disappearance,” meaning that the individual is hidden for security reasons rather than being forcibly disappeared by the state. Eventually, they reappear in a safe location.
Then, there are cases of real disappearances, where individuals vanish not for safety but due to direct persecution by state or social forces—like Mubarak Bala.
Let’s look at this as a sliding scale. We start with cases like Gaspár Bekes, which have a professional and social impact but no physical danger. Then we move to cases like Narendra Nayak, which have a security risk but no disappearance. Then, we move to cases like Gulalai Ismail, which has a strategic disappearance for safety. Finally, in the end, we have Mubarak Bala, where the persecution was severe enough to result in years of imprisonment.
Now, let me get to my question.
What measures were taken to confirm whether Mubarak was alive after he disappeared? I’m curious about this. Many people were. You were directly involved and working more actively than I was. What was being done to find out his status?
Igwe: That is an interesting question.
Like I said earlier, we did everything we could. And when I say everything, I mean that every single day, I would wake up and ask:
“Have we spoken to Mr. X?”
“Have we contacted Professor Y?”
“Have we sent an email to Z?”
We called embassies, contacted diplomats, and knocked on every possible door, asking, “Hey, what do you do? Can you help us confirm whether Mubarak is still alive?”
This man had disappeared.
We even ran advertisements in national newspapers asking for information on his whereabouts. We did everything we could to determine whether he was alive or dead.
We pursued multiple approaches. First, there was the legal approach—we took the case to court and filed a demand that the government produce him, try him, or release him. There is a technical legal term for this. Still, our court case required the authorities to confirm his whereabouts and either put him on trial or set him free.
Then, there was the advocacy approach. We wrote letters to the Governor of Kano, the President of Nigeria, and all major human rights organizations. We engaged with the UN, which issued public statements and applied diplomatic pressure on the authorities.
As I mentioned before, the UN first confirmed his existence. For months, we had been receiving no signal whatsoever that he was still alive, so we intensified our efforts. The UN used its networks to verify his status, and they confirmed that he was still being held in custody.
Our international pressure worked. After a few months, the UN confirmed that he was alive.
Jacobsen: That is a huge win.
What about the uncertainty during that period? The scrambling for weeks, even months, affected how you approached the legal strategy.
His sentence was originally 25 years, but it was reduced to five years on appeal. That is extraordinarily significant—not only for his personal life but also as a legal precedent for cases like his.
Everything about this case was illegitimate and outrageous. Still, the fact that you could appeal and reduce the sentence so dramatically is remarkable. How did you adapt your legal strategy as more information became available and his safety was secured?
Igwe: Well, in cases like this, no matter what you do, people will judge you.
Because of time differences between teams and organizations, we held constant meetings, even at midnight or 1:00 AM.
One of our biggest challenges was that some people wanted us to focus on eliminating Nigeria’s “blasphemy” laws. While that was a noble goal, it was not the most strategic approach.
Instead, we asked ourselves: What is our immediate goal? The answer was clear—get him out of prison and to safety.
There were several ways to achieve that:
- A presidential pardon
- An acquittal through the courts
- A successful appeal to reduce his sentence
Ultimately, the appeal strategy worked, reducing his 25-year sentence to five years. But our immediate goal was not to abolish “blasphemy” laws altogether but to release Mubarak.
That is why we had to bring another legal team to focus on broader “blasphemy” cases. We hope that those cases can eventually be used to challenge the constitutionality of “blasphemy” provisions. However, that is a long-term battle.
This is also part of the reason why one individual accused of “blasphemy” is still in jail today—because some legal teams prioritized challenging the law itself rather than focusing on securing the individual’s release. And let me tell you, getting rid of “blasphemy” laws in Nigeria is not something that will happen today or tomorrow.
From the beginning, we tried to avoid distractions and groups with conflicting approaches that could slow us down. Of course, there were also criticisms that our lawyer was incompetent. Still, we ignored the noise and focused on our goal.
That clarity helped us manage the uncertainty and stay on track.
When the initial sentence was handed down, we carefully analyzed the loopholes in the judgment. The legal debate centred on whether the sentences should run concurrently or cumulatively—something our lawyers could explain better. But it was through these loopholes that we built our appeal.
At the same time, we increased diplomatic pressure. We engaged with the U.S. Commission on International Religious Freedom (USCIRF) to push the Nigerian government to clarify that Mubarak’s case seriously failed to protect freedom of religion or belief.
By clearly defining our objectives, applying international pressure, and refusing to be distracted by blackmail, slander, and infighting, we secured Mubarak’s reduced sentence and eventual release.
Jacobsen: How was the trial in Kano? What challenges did you face during the proceedings?
Igwe: The trial itself was highly problematic.
First, access to Mubarak was restricted. Our lawyers were routinely blocked from visiting him. When they did manage to see, they were told they needed additional permissions—sometimes from Abuja, sometimes from local officials. There was always an excuse to limit their time with him.
When Mubarak tried to communicate with them by phone, they would only allow calls lasting two minutes or less. These restrictions weakened his legal defence and prevented his lawyers from preparing an adequate case.
Then, during the trial, Mubarak pleaded guilty despite his lawyer’s advice.
His lawyer strongly advised him not to. The legal team believed they could not have convicted him if the case had been tried on merit. But Mubarak pleaded guilty, acting on his reasoning, which led to the harsh sentencing.
Afterward, some people blamed the lawyer for the guilty plea, which was unfair—it was Mubarak’s decision. The BBC even covered the trial, and the video clearly showed that he pleaded guilty against legal advice.
Once that happened, we regrouped and immediately started preparing an appeal, eventually reducing his sentence.
Jacobsen: What does this case reveal about the state of Nigeria’s legal system, especially across different jurisdictions?
Igwe: Well, Nigeria’s legal system does not operate like the legal systems in Canada, the U.S., or the UK.
In Nigeria, laws vary significantly depending on which part of the country you are in. In the north, where Muslims are the majority, the legal system is heavily influenced by religious establishments.
State laws do not hold the same weight there. They are often subordinate to Sharia law. Whenever there is a conflict between state and Sharia law, authorities defer to the Sharia-leaning interpretation.
One of the fundamental challenges we face is that there is no single rule of law for all Nigerians. Instead, we have multiple legal frameworks that allow religious and political establishments—both Islamic and Christian—to exploit legal loopholes and undermine the idea of one law for all.
In theory, Nigeria claims to uphold the rule of law. But in practice, we have a “rule of laws,” where different legal standards apply based on religion, location, and political power.
This is precisely why individuals like Mubarak Bala cannot fully exercise their rights or receive a fair trial when charged in court.
Jacobsen: Let’s say you’re a Muslim in Kano facing trial for violating Islamic law. How would that legal system treat you compared to an ex-Muslim accused of the same offence?
Would the treatment be equal, or would it be different?
Igwe: If you are a Muslim, the authorities will want to try you under Sharia law.
However, if you are an ex-Muslim, things are much worse. Nobody looks kindly on ex-Muslims in Northern Nigeria. Being an ex-Muslim makes you hated, ostracized, and, in many cases, a target for punishment or even elimination.
If given the opportunity, some extremists believe you should be killed simply for leaving Islam.
For that reason, they do not even want ex-Muslims to be tried under state law—because state law would be more lenient in its sentencing. Instead, they push for Sharia courts to handle these cases, ensuring harsher punishments for the accused.
Even for non-Muslims, the legal system is biased. People have told me in Northern Nigeria that if a Christian or non-Muslim is tried in a state court, they often receive longer sentences than Muslims for the same offence.
In other words, you suffer more punishment simply because you are not Muslim.
This makes the legal landscape in Northern Nigeria a perilous place for religious minorities, especially ex-Muslims, atheists, and secular activists.
Jacobsen: Beyond that, I want to emphasize that Mubarak’s original “crime” was cyber-based.
This adds another layer of complexity because cyber offences do not always fit neatly within traditional legal frameworks. Unlike physical crimes, cyber-based cases transcend national and geopolitical boundaries.
Mubarak’s case was not about “blasphemy”—it also reflected the growing conflict between digital free speech and religious censorship in authoritarian societies.
So, Mubarak’s “crime” was posting one sentence on Facebook (now Meta)—a harsh, critical statement making fun of Mohammed. For that, he was sentenced to 25 years in prison.
Let me reiterate how draconian that is. He was kidnapped from his home in Kaduna by plainclothes officers without a warrant, dragged to Kano, and then charged under a quasi-cyber “blasphemy” law. Eventually, through intense legal efforts, his sentence was reduced to five years—which, in that context, was considered a win.
This case demonstrates the extremity of Nigeria’s legal landscape, especially when religious forces are involved. Anyone who has travelled outside their country can recognize the vast differences in legal frameworks, and Mubarak’s case is one of the most extreme examples of religious persecution through legal mechanisms.
Now, to your point about smear campaigns, in North America, podcasts are popular. YouTube channels functioning as audio-visual podcasts often discuss narcissism, relationships, interpersonal dynamics, and professional conflicts. Many of these channels frame smear campaigns as something resulting from narcissistic injury—when a narcissist feels slighted and retaliates with false accusations and character attacks.
Most of these discussions, however, are not from experts—people with strong opinions speaking confidently on social media. When they discuss smear campaigns, they usually mean personal vendettas fueled by emotional grievances.
But in your case, I think you are using a “smear campaign” in a more specific and political way—as a tool for social and political undermining rather than personal retaliation.
How do you counter systematic misinformation and smear campaigns in your context, especially from select sources with an agenda?
Igwe: Well, there is a limit to what anyone can do today regarding social media misinformation.
People can spend endless hours on Facebook, Twitter, or other platforms spreading falsehoods and distorting reality. And the truth is, we can only do so much to counter that.
We considered two different strategic approaches:
- Could you ignore it? Some people advised that responding would only escalate the problem and make the accuser feel important.
- Engage with it. Others argued that misinformation could discredit years of work, and ignoring it would allow false narratives to spread unchecked.
Meanwhile, we kept receiving emails and messages from supporters warning us: “They are smearing you! They are spreading false information! They are undermining all the work you’ve done over the years!”
Honestly, if you ask me, smear campaigns are deeply frustrating, and they can be hurtful—mainly when they stem from ignorance.
Igwe: Sometimes, people who engage in smear campaigns are dealing with trauma. When I recognize this, I find avoiding them is best.
However, if you are in a public role—serving on a board or leading an organization—you cannot always ignore them. Smear campaigns can damage the reputation of organizations you are associated with or even create distrust among your colleagues.
I was struggling with these challenges. When I saw some of these false accusations, I knew exactly who was behind them and why they were being made. My natural response was to ignore them.
But, of course, it was not that simple. I kept receiving calls, Facebook messages, emails, and even lawyers and family members were being contacted. People were asking, “What is going on? Why are they saying these things about you? You need to respond!” The pressure to react was constant.
I responded at times, and at other times, I thought it best to ignore it. Managing these situations was extremely difficult. But I will say that we did our best—myself, Humanists International, and everyone else involved.
Our primary strategy was to let the controversy fizzle out, precisely what happened.
Of course, even now, when I attend local meetings, people still ask, “What happened? I remember hearing all sorts of things about you.” And then I find myself having to retell the entire story repeatedly—even though it adds no real value to my life.
This is the reality of being a public figure. When you are visible and outspoken, there will always be moments when people spread negative or false claims about you. That is inevitable.
Sometimes, these attacks come from surprising places—from people who were once your Facebook friends or even members of the humanist community. I have learned to expect them.
Still, we are human, and we sometimes need to respond. Occasionally, I issued statements, asking people to ignore the false accusations. I also wrote articles to clarify the situation, including one on humanism and asylum-seeking, which examined how some individuals exploit legitimate human rights issues for personal gain.
Ultimately, the best approach is to provide clarification when necessary—but otherwise, ignore it.
Jacobsen: That is a healthy response. I completely agree.
Every humanist I know has gone through this in their small town or internationally. It is simply part of being a minority in a global movement.
Igwe: Yes.
As I said earlier, the crisis, challenges, and smear campaigns helped me better understand how fragile the humanist community can be.
It also showed me how easily people can get drawn into misinformation.
We had to hold emergency meetings—one after another— to address these issues. And I thought to myself, “Wow, so two or three individuals spreading misinformation on social media can throw an entire organization into panic mode?”
This is why humanists must work through institutions rather than acting on impulse. Institutions have professionals who are trained to verify facts before taking action.
Take, for example, a humanist in the UK who reads something online. Instead of contacting the relevant institutions to verify the information, they immediately write a petition and send it to an organization.
Meanwhile, they never reached out to those institutions first. They never said, “Hey, I read this—what is going on?”
Had they done so, the institution would have investigated and provided an informed position. Instead, they went online, researched in isolation, spoke only to people from one side of the issue, and then joined a campaign to discredit someone.
And what happened?
The petition reached the institutional level, was adequately investigated, and was dismissed as baseless. This kind of behaviour damages credibility and undermines the integrity of movements.
My advice is specifically for humanists in the U.S., the UK, and the West. Some of them still hold narrow-minded views of Africans. When they hear the word “Nigerian,” some immediately associate it with 419 scams and fraud—as if that defines an entire country.
People need to understand that fraud exists everywhere.
Fraudsters exist in Canada, the U.S., Europe, Asia, and beyond. Americans know this about their own country. The reality is that the world is the way it is today because of fraud—whether covertly or overtly executed by people of all races, backgrounds, and nationalities.
Yet, when it comes to Africa, some people immediately fall back on stereotypes. They assume that an African person is automatically uneducated, unintelligent, or “low-brow.” And worse, some of these same people try to “guide” Africans, even when they are entirely ignorant and prejudiced.
I have seen this firsthand. Many of our colleagues in the West—humanists included—treat Africans with condescension. They may not say it outright, but their attitudes make it evident that they see Africans as primitive, backward, or in need of paternalistic oversight.
I have witnessed this repeatedly after more than twenty years of working within the humanist movement.
Let them understand that things are changing.
As I sit here, I see that my mother is an American citizen. My siblings live in different parts of the world. We know what is going on globally. We are not the Africans of the anthropology era of 200, 400, or 500 years ago.
Yet, many still see us as “noble savages.” They may not say it outright, but when they talk about Africans, they do so with deep contempt and disrespect. And let me be clear—this approach will not work for us in the 21st century.
We use the same Internet and have the same access to information. Yet, their prejudices show in how they handle African cases and in how they interact with African activists and intellectuals.
Let me tell you something else—if only white people had handled Mubarak’s case, none of these controversies would likely not have arisen. Despite his initial objections, even Mubarak would have likely accepted the process without issue.
The truth is that many people harbour racist attitudes, but they refuse to call it racism. At the same time, many Africans and Nigerians have internalized their sense of inferiority. They panic whenever someone from the U.S. or Europe makes a statement—even when that person is wrong. And let me be clear—many times, they are wrong.
Humanists worldwide must understand that we should abandon outdated mindsets when relating to one another and treat each other respectfully. I pointed out that if the lawyers handling this case were British or Americans, even if one was incompetent or unaware of the legal trends, no one would launch a smear campaign against them. Even if people from the U.S. or the UK were involved in such a campaign, they wouldn’t, simply because he is British—he’s a white man.
However, there is an inherent tendency to look down on people when they are not white and are handling significant responsibilities. Their competence and intelligence are immediately questioned. And look, people are questioning my ability to manage a situation I understand better than they do. Scott, there’s a limit. This situation is unfolding, and who will suffer the most? I am the one at the center of it. And I’m telling people, “This is how I want to handle it.” Yet, someone in the UK or the U.S. claims that I don’t know what I’m doing, that I hired an incompetent lawyer—what an insult! What an insult!
That’s why I said humanists should work through institutions. If there are concerns, contact Humanists International: “Could you look into this? These are the reports I’m receiving.” From there, the situation can be assessed more accurately. But instead, people turn to social media, gathering fragmented information from unreliable sources. Many are traumatized, disappointed, desperate, or pursuing their agendas. They resort to smear campaigns and slander when they don’t get what they want.
Spreading misinformation and amplifying falsehoods is irresponsible. I was disappointed by this, and we must be mindful of it. Moving forward, we will grow and not remain a marginal organization.
If we are ready to grow, we should be prepared to manage this. We should have mechanisms in place and recognize that many people will come to the UK claiming to be humanists—not because they genuinely are, but because they seek residency. They declare, “I’m a humanist,” and we grant them asylum. Then they use that status, and there’s no practical way to verify their claim. We need a mechanism to address this because one of the prevailing arguments is, “Don’t challenge these asylum seekers because of immigration politics.”
By taking that stance, we inadvertently enable fraud. We allow people to fabricate claims of persecution and exploit resources. And if a white British person vouches for someone, even when evidence suggests otherwise, that claim is rarely questioned. The position taken by a British person in a case like this is often considered unquestionable, even when they know little or nothing about the legal situation on the ground.
We create these crises, but moving forward, we must emphasize the importance of mutual respect and partnership. Instead of making assumptions, call me and ask, “What does this person need? What is the actual situation?” We should also implement verification mechanisms and rely on their results rather than being swayed by sentimentality or the idea that Western perspectives must always prevail simply because they originate from the West.
That approach will alienate many genuine and committed people, and if we allow it to happen, we will remain a marginal, fringe organization.
Jacobsen: How did you engage with local communities—without patronizing them—to gain their support, whether religious or non-religious, in advocating for Mubarak Bala? You worked to reduce his sentence from 25 years to five, ultimately securing his release while keeping things low-key to ensure his safety.
Igwe: One of the things I always emphasize is that today, it’s Mubarak. Tomorrow, it could be you. It could be your relatives. Yes, you could become a victim. That is the reality I try to communicate, and it resonates with people.
“blasphemy” accusations are like a sword hanging over people—it can fall on anyone at any time. We must convey this message to prevent it from happening again. The same applies to witchcraft accusations. As I speak to you now, I could easily fall victim to witchcraft hysteria and be killed. This is not hypothetical.
In my community, a person was brutally murdered by ritualists. Their body was mutilated, and parts were taken for ritual sacrifice. I always remind people that this is not some distant, abstract threat. It can happen to anyone, anytime.
In such situations, what can we do? We must rally together. As the saying goes, “For whom the bell tolls”—tomorrow, it could toll for you. I try to help people understand that we are shaping the future for ourselves.
To grow, we must commit to a non-violent, civil approach in responding to statements, social media posts, and positions taken by others. Reacting impulsively or with hostility will not serve our cause. Instead, we must remain strategic, principled, and united.
Violence is never an appropriate response to someone’s expression, whether in speech, writing, or social media posts, even if we strongly disagree with them. We use mechanisms to broaden our support base and rally people together. We want them to understand that this is not about an individual but a collective cause.
I never saw Mubarak’s case as just about him personally. I viewed it as a symbol, an opportunity—so to speak—to advocate for a fundamental principle I have championed for years: people must be free to believe or not believe as they choose. Society risks fostering fanaticism and extremism if people cannot freely choose their beliefs.
People in any society must be free to think, believe, and express themselves. That is the only way to prevent a slide into fundamentalism. I have always emphasized that coming together to save this young man’s life is not just about him—it is about securing a better future for us and the generations to come.
Jacobsen: Many movements emerge, and specific individuals become prominent. But for every well-known leader, there are countless others whose names will never be remembered—people who work tirelessly behind the scenes and are forgotten by history.
In North America, we can name figures like Martin Luther King Jr. and Malcolm X. In Ghana’s post-colonial context, we remember Kwame Nkrumah. These extraordinary figures emerged from particular cultural and historical circumstances that shaped them and, in turn, were shaped by them.
How do you ensure that frontline activists—those who risk their lives not for fame but for justice—are given proper recognition and respect? These individuals often remain anonymous, even as they do critical work in the legal system, community organizing, or online advocacy. How do you balance the focus on well-known figures with ensuring that the many hidden contributors receive the acknowledgment and support they deserve?
Igwe: Yes, thank you for that. Coordination is key, information is key, and regular updates are essential. For example, At midnight in Nigeria, Americans are still going about their evenings, and Australians are just starting their day. The time zones alone constantly need communication and coordination across regions.
Ensuring that all contributors—lawyers, community activists, and digital advocates—are engaged and recognized requires an ongoing effort to share updates, facilitate collaboration, and reinforce the importance of their roles. It is not just about the well-known figures but the collective effort that makes change possible.
It took a toll. Managing people from different parts of the world, with significant time differences from Nigeria, was exhausting. It also required great energy because I had to update people individually. It’s not like there was a single email list where one message could reach everyone at once.
Instead, each person received updates separately; sometimes, I had to repeat the same information again and again. If I didn’t respond quickly, some people felt ignored or even acted as if I owed them something—almost as if they had “employed”me, in a sense. Managing and coordinating all of this was incredibly tough.
But in such moments, you must ask yourself: What is the goal? We were all in this together to get Mubarak out. When I kept that bigger picture in mind, I realized that the sacrifices—providing updates, clarifying misinformation, and navigating difficult conversations—were small compared.
Managing misinformation was also a critical part of this effort. At one point, we discovered that a woman seeking asylum had conspired with some members of Mubarak’s family to spread false information that he had been killed. If you check some of our blogs, you’ll see that there was a time when people were asking whether Mubarak had been murdered. The rumour circulated that his body had been deposited in a mortuary, with alleged eyewitnesses claiming they had seen it.
But what happened? We later confirmed that it was false. The person behind the rumour was one of those seeking asylum, allegedly claiming she was accused of “blasphemy”. This exemplifies how individuals with self-serving motives and ulterior interests can undermine an entire movement.
This was a constant concern. Then, to make matters worse, some diplomats called to console me—only to later realize that the information they relied on was fake. One particular woman, an alarmist, deliberately spread misinformation, creating panic and fueling fear around the situation.
When authorities hold someone, verifying information before spreading it is crucial. People should have informed me before circulating unverified claims. We did everything possible to confirm Mubarak’s safety, yet false rumours made that task even harder.
So, what am I saying? It was tough to manage accurate information and counter the spread of falsehoods. This kind of misinformation doesn’t just threaten the campaign’s credibility—it also threatens your credibility as an individual. A lot was at stake and had to be carefully managed.
Jacobsen: What advice would you give international actors to avoid the pitfalls of “buyer beware” in advocacy? Everyone jokes about the Nigerian prince who claims to be your long-lost relative with a fortune waiting in a bank in Ibadan. And “brother” is a common word in those messages—it sounds formal, yet informal.
You get emails like:
“Dear brother, I request your help dispensing my $5 million inheritance from our late uncle, King So-and-So, who has passed away. Please help.”
For some reason, every time, these emails end up in my spam folder—at least in my old email account. It’s so strange, Leo. I should reconnect with my Nigerian royal roots. Who would have thought I had a Nigerian family? I always thought I was Dutch and Norwegian heritage!
In Canada, you get many spam calls from phone companies and scammers trying to sell you things. And, of course, they always say, “Let me know if you need any refinements or follow-ups during the process.” That’s my phone, for some reason.
But on a more serious note—when people are sifting through legitimate and illegitimate cases of those in need, how do they separate real cases from fraudulent ones? Take your case with Mubarak Bala or involve people like Gulalai Ismail, Narendra Nayak, or Gaspar Bekes. Suppose you go to Humanists International’s website. In that case, they have a list of around 40 names—people who are in serious trouble for no legitimate reason, just because of the state, their community, or other forces targeting them.
So, what are your recommendations for distinguishing genuine requests for help from fraudulent ones?
Igwe: We must invest in building strong, credible networks globally—otherwise, we will not be effective. Take it or leave it. If we don’t, we will continue facing the same challenges we’ve encountered before.
During Mubarak’s case, things were incredibly fluid and fragile. We were all vulnerable. At one point, I even questioned why I was doing this work. If someone can go on the Internet, gather information about me and my work, and then write a petition based on that, what am I even here for?
Why am I part of Humanists International if some humanists/atheists won’t trust me enough to ask me directly what is happening? Instead, they act first, and only later do they start calling and seeking clarification.
We need a robust, well-organized network. We must invest in it, or else we will be misled, misinformed, and prone to serious mistakes.
At one point, honestly, I broke down. Crooks and opportunists can manipulate us, making us believe we are dealing with something urgent and legitimate when, in reality, it is deception. We must establish proper mechanisms to verify cases before taking action.
Distractions can deter us from what matters. We must invest in strong, reliable networks to avoid that distraction. Otherwise, it will cost us dearly, and we won’t be able to build a viable global organization.
Forget it—we need competent people in different parts of the world. We must develop ways to engage with them, gather credible information, and be guided by reliable sources.
That does not mean that everything I say should be accepted blindly. No. But when issues arise, we need verification mechanisms in place. For instance, when we vote on member organizations, I sometimes object to certain groups being recognized as humanist organizations based on their actions. Sometimes, I win that argument; sometimes, I lose. But what do I do? Let’s wait and see how these organizations, which you believe to be humanist, actually conduct themselves.
I am emphasizing this: if we are satisfied with what we assume we know, then why do we even have a global network? Why do we have representatives from different parts of the world? The purpose of these networks is to help us avoid mistakes and prevent us from being misled by random individuals with questionable motives.
You might receive an email from a Nigerian prince or princess. But what should you do? Like any responsible organization, you contact relevant authorities—governments and embassies—and ask them to investigate. That is why embassies exist, and we have representatives in different regions.
Yet, despite having representatives in various places, some still rely on random, unverified sources for information. That does not reflect well on our decision-making process. It is frustrating and, frankly, demoralizing.
Let me add something else—much misinformation about Nigeria and Africa has been established as “common knowledge” in the West. I researched witchcraft accusations, and I found that most of the available literature was written by Western anthropologists who largely misrepresented the phenomenon.
This misrepresentation has made it difficult for the world to grasp the problem’s urgency or approach it with the necessary perspective shift. So, misinformation works both ways.
Many people have only a superficial understanding of Nigeria and Africa. For example, in 1999, at a humanist conference in India, someone asked me, “How is Mandela?” I was stunned.
I just stood there, unsure how to respond. I must have looked foolish before him, but I was shocked that he was asking me—a Nigerian—about Mandela. I never met Mandela, who was a six-hour flight from where I lived. Yet people assume that because I’m from Africa, I must have personal knowledge of him.
You encounter people like that all the time. But when a white person expresses ignorance or prejudice, it is often overlooked or downplayed. However, when it happens to me or someone from my background, it fits into a stereotype and gets highlighted.
What am I trying to say? Misinformation works both ways. However, we can address this by respecting each other and recognizing our competent representatives in different regions. We should listen to them, rely on their insights about their parts of the world, and use that information to guide our decisions—not our prejudices, not what we find on the Internet, and not even everything we read in academic research.
Many researchers come to Africa, stay in hotels, and never genuinely immerse themselves in the realities of the places they claim to study. Yet, they go on to become “authorities” in Africa. What they produce is often not authority—it is falsehood and misrepresentation.
So what am I saying? We need to move beyond outdated attitudes and prejudices. We live in an interconnected world where information is readily available. We must take advantage of that and ensure we engage with the truth rather than relying on stereotypes.
That is how we make real progress. We can relegate the Nigerian prince and princess email scams to the fringe while focusing on meaningful work that truly impacts the world.
Our philosophy is global. We are humanists, not Westernists, British, Canadian, or Americanists.
For goodness’ sake, we are humanists.
Jacobsen: We need a universal, effective mechanism to uphold and deliver a universal philosophical life stance. As people grow and learn more about the philosophy, the principles remain straightforward. The nuances come as they gain experience with different cultures and individuals at other times.
But the core principles hold firm. In all the cases I mentioned earlier, while the circumstances vary, the underlying struggles are the same. The same fundamental problems exist across societies—some countries have largely solved them because they’ve had more time, resources, or better governance. Others are still grappling with a full spectrum of these challenges.
Regardless, the concerns remain universal. As you said, we are humanists. These are shared human struggles.
That’s why conversations like this are essential. They present these issues in an accessible, conversational format that is easy to engage in.
Even though this interview focuses on Mubarak Bala, we’ve referenced numerous international cases, showing how interconnected these struggles are.
I’ve asked many questions. Do you want to add anything else?
Igwe: Yes, in conclusion, I want to thank everyone who has helped us in this case.
As I’ve said before, this situation was unprecedented. We were not prepared for it. It happened suddenly, and many people rallied to support us.
I want to thank humanists worldwide, especially those from Australia and New Zealand. I want to thank Iain and Gaylene Middleton, who were incredibly supportive and emailed daily to check on our progress and well-being.
I also want to thank humanists from the U.S. and the UK who saw through all the nonsense and smear campaigns and stood firmly behind us as we grappled with one of the most challenging and mentally exhausting campaigns I have ever undertaken.
Of course, I want to express my gratitude to our humanist members in Nigeria. Many of them saw through the misinformation, stood by me, encouraged me, called to check in, and supported our efforts in every possible way.
I also want to thank the legal team. I am proud to call James my friend. He brought together a dedicated legal team that helped us navigate this complex and challenging situation.
I want to thank all those who worked tirelessly in the background. I may not know all their names, but I know that many people played critical roles behind the scenes to ensure that we succeeded—that Mubarak was freed and is now a free man.
I am also profoundly grateful to the Humanists International board members. When this happened, I wasn’t on the board but eventually became a member. Even before that, they supported me and sent words of encouragement during the campaign’s most challenging moments. To them, I remain eternally grateful.
I will continue to find ways to give back—to support our movement and to ensure that we continue to grow both as a community and as a global force for good.
And yes, Scott, I also want to thank you for your time and providing a platform to share this message. We should continue to have spaces like this to amplify our voices, not just as a community but as a global movement.
Jacobsen: Thank you very much, and I hope you have a good rest of the day. I’m heading to bed now.
Igwe: Yes, and you too. Have a good night’s rest.
Jacobsen: I appreciate it.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/15
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The views and opinions expressed in this article are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization, institution, or entity with which the author may be affiliated, including Humanists International.
Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson is a Canadian counselling psychologist, educator, and theorist best known for developing the concept of the memetic self, a cognitive identity framework shaped by culturally transmitted units of meaning called memes. Robertson elaborates on the self as a culturally and cognitively constructed phenomenon, tracing its emergence from early mirror self-recognition in animals to complex human self-awareness shaped by language, social interaction, and cultural evolution. He introduces self-mapping, a therapeutic tool that visualizes an individual’s self-concept by identifying and organizing core memes. Robertson explores diverse cultural and neurological cases—including autism, Alzheimer’s, and dissociative identity disorder—to illustrate how coherence or fragmentation in the self impacts well-being. He critiques reductive models, emphasizes cultural universality in core drives, and reflects on the future of the self amid AI and cybernetics. His forthcoming book, Mapping and Understanding: Using Memetic Mapping to Promote Self Understanding in Psychotherapy, coauthored with his daughter, applies these insights to therapy.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re joined by Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson. He is a Canadian psychologist, educator, and theorist known for his innovative work on the culturally constructed self. With over 40 years of experience in counselling and educational psychology, he developed the concept of the memetic self—a cognitive framework composed of culturally transmitted ideas (or “memes”) that shape an individual’s identity. He is the author of The Evolved Self: Mapping an Understanding of Who We Are and a pioneer of self-mapping, a visual and therapeutic method for exploring and restructuring identity. His work bridges psychology, philosophy, and cultural studies, offering practical tools for therapy and education while exploring questions of free will, agency, and the evolution of selfhood across diverse cultures. Mr. Robertson, thank you very much for joining me again today. I appreciate it. It’s always a pleasure.
Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson: You’re welcome. I’m looking forward to this, Scott.
Jacobsen: So, what is the self?
Robertson: Oh, that’s pretty basic. Okay. The self is a construct, as you mentioned in your introduction. Thank you for that generous overview. Your question is, “What is the self?” The self is a conceptual framework we use to define who we are. It is not a physical entity in the brain but rather a cognitive and cultural construct—a mental map that incorporates beliefs, values, experiences, and roles.
This construct has evolved. One of the earliest indications of self-awareness in our evolutionary lineage is mirror self-recognition, which has been observed in some great apes, dolphins, elephants, and magpies. In our hominin ancestors, the development of language and culture allowed for increasingly complex and abstract self-concepts.
Recognizing one’s reflection—understanding that “this is me”—marks a foundational moment in developing self-awareness. Although early humans may not have had the language to describe it, the ability to form a concept of self-based on reflection and social interaction was critical. This capacity laid the groundwork for the complex, culturally mediated selves we navigate today.
From that modest beginning, our ancestors gradually evolved the capacity for social interaction. They needed a rudimentary idea of who they were to engage socially, even if it was not consciously articulated.
Language development significantly boosted the evolution of the self. Once we moved beyond simple two-slot grammar—like “him run”—to more complex phonetic constructs, we could combine distinct sounds that held no individual meaning but could generate an almost unlimited number of words.
With that, collections of words took on new, layered meanings. As this linguistic complexity emerged, our self-definition became more nuanced, expanded, and refined. About 50,000 years ago, humans began burying their dead. This act implies a recognition of mortality and a developing self-concept about life and death.
The most recent significant change in our understanding of the self—as part of cultural evolution—may have occurred as recently as 3,000 years ago. I say “may” because it could have emerged earlier, but our evidence dates to that period, particularly from Greek writing and Egyptian hieroglyphics. Of course, many earlier cultures lacked writing systems, so we cannot be definitive about when this modern conception of self emerged.
What is this self I’m referring to? It includes the ideas of volition, constancy over time, and uniqueness. For instance, although you and I, Scott, share many characteristics, I do not believe you are me, and vice versa. Even if I had an identical twin—same genetics, upbringing, and experiences—I still would not recognize him as myself. That sense of uniqueness is part of the “modern self”—a culturally evolved manifestation of identity with an inherent sense of individualism.
Here is the great irony: we are a social species, and the self emerged through social interaction within early human communities, particularly tribal Neolithic groups. The self could not have developed in isolation; it depends on interaction with others. So, we are fundamentally shaped by collectivism, even though individualism is built into our modern self. This creates an internal tension between the group’s needs and the individual’s autonomy.
Historically, that tension was mediated by religion—specifically, organized religion, which kept people in their social roles. In Western civilizations, a deity often prescribed those roles, and individuals could not transcend them. Tradition or ancestor worship defined the limits of the self in other cultural contexts.
Societies that completely suppressed the modern self remained stagnant, while those that permitted at least some individuals to develop a sense of autonomous selfhood became more adaptive. This is because the self is a powerful tool for problem-solving. It allows us to reinsert ourselves into past experiences as protagonists, to relive and learn from those events, and to rehearse possible futures mentally. We can adjust our behaviour accordingly. These are valuable psychological skills.
But they also come at a cost. With the modern self comes the capacity for anxiety and existential distress. I doubt that our earliest ancestors experienced clinical depression or anxiety disorders as we know them today. These conditions are part of the psychological “baggage” of possessing a self capable of complex reflection and future projection.
For millennia, the self was constrained—kept “on a leash,” so to speak—until a set of unique historical conditions emerged in Europe. Specifically, during and before the Enlightenment, the Catholic Church—which had long functioned to suppress individualism—lost control, particularly during the Reformation and the ensuing religious wars between Catholics and Protestants.
Individuals gained some permission to explore personal identity when centralized religious authority broke down. This blossomed into what we now call the Enlightenment. The Enlightenment did not invent the self—it authorized it. Not entirely, of course—we remain social beings with embedded restrictions—but it granted more freedom to individuals to develop their understandings.
This led to the rise of modern science and humanism. Knowledge was no longer handed down by authority. Instead, it became something you had to demonstrate through observation, reason, and experimentation. These practices allowed individuals to engage with a reality beyond themselves.
And that is where humanism emerged. So, you asked me what the self is—and now you see: when you ask me a question, you get a long-winded answer.
Jacobsen: How do you define “meme” within the framework of The Evolved Self?
Robertson: The word “meme” has had an unfortunate evolution. It was initially coined by Richard Dawkins in the 1970s. Dawkins coined the term “meme” to represent a self-replicating unit of culture.
For instance, a simple descriptor like the colour red is not a meme. It’s merely a physical property description, not a transmissible concept that evolves culturally. A meme, in contrast, is more than an idea; it is a cultural construct that carries meaning across individuals and generations.
Dawkins defined a meme as something broader than a simple descriptor but narrower than an entire ideology, religion, or belief system. The latter, of course, is composed of many memes—interrelated units of culture. You can, for example, substitute the colour red in a conceptual framework with blue, and the core concept might remain, but the meme is more than any one element—it has internal structure and transmissibility.
Unfortunately, Dawkins did not have the opportunity to develop the theory entirely. His work was criticized for being tautological. Critics asked, “How can you prove this? How do we observe or measure a meme?” These questions challenged the concept’s empirical rigour.
In my research, I proposed a refined definition of a meme: it must be a culture unit with behavioural, qualitative, and emotional (or emotive) implications. A proper meme is not just a label or idea—it affects how we feel, act, and make meaning.
This also resolves a challenge Dawkins left open—his observation that memes can have “attractive” or “repulsive” properties. He did not elaborate on the mechanics of that.
In my framework, if one meme naturally leads to another—like how “love” often leads to “marriage” in cultural narratives—that linkage reflects an attractive force between memes. Conversely, when two memes are psychologically or conceptually incompatible—”love” and “hate” coexisting as core guiding values in the exact moment—that reflects a repellent force.
My work on the modern self is composed of a collection of memes that are primarily attractive to one another. If a meme within that structure becomes repellent—meaning it no longer aligns with the rest of the self—it tends to be ejected. That is how we maintain coherent, relatively stable identities.
Of course, not everyone has a stable sense of self. My work as a psychologist involves helping people reconfigure their self-concepts when internal inconsistencies cause distress.
Now, where things get tricky is the evolution of the word “meme” online. The internet popularized the term in a way that deviates from its original definition. Internet memes typically involve humour or juxtaposition—two ideas or images that don’t usually go together. While some may qualify as memes in the original sense, internet usage represents a narrow and diluted interpretation.
Jacobsen: Did I hear you correctly? You’re saying the modern meme online sometimes overlaps with Dawkins’ definition, but only in a limited sense.
Robertson: Yes, exactly. Internet memes sometimes fulfill the criteria but rarely capture the deeper behavioural and emotional dimensions Dawkins originally gestured toward—which I’ve tried to formalize more clearly.
Jacobsen: So, how does this fit into your work on self-mapping?
Robertson: Good question.
One of the most academically grounded ways to create a self-map is to ask someone to describe who they are. You use prompting questions to elicit a detailed, rich description of their self-concept.
I collect those self-descriptions in my research—just like this interview is being recorded. I transcribe the responses and break the narrative into elemental units—essentially memes. Each unit is labelled and categorized. This approach parallels qualitative methods in social science research.
The coding method I use for self-mapping parallels the qualitative analysis approach developed by Miles and Huberman in the early 1990s.
You label each unit of meaning. A sentence could represent a single unit or contain multiple distinct concepts. You isolate those concepts into thematic categories—or “bins”—based on their shared meaning.
Then, if those units exhibit the characteristics I described earlier—qualitative, behavioural, and emotional implications—you can classify them as memes.
Next, you examine the relationships between those memes. You identify which memes are attracted to each other—either through thematic linkage or cause-effect associations—and chart those relationships. You map them visually, using lines to indicate attractive forces. That’s the core structure of the self-map I create.
Now, this method requires considerable time and effort.
So, to make the process more accessible, my daughter—a psychologist—and I developed a quicker method in collaboration with a colleague from Athabasca University. We created a structured questionnaire with 40 core prompts, which could be expanded to 50 or 60.
The questions focus on four primary areas. First, we ask: “Who are you?” People might respond with statements like “I’m a father” or “I’m a chess player.” These are self-descriptive memes—cultural elements that express identity.
Then, we ask: “What are 10 things you like about yourself?” and “What are 10 things you would change if you could?” Finally, we ask: “What are 10 things you believe to be true?”
One of my clients, earlier this year, offered a novel and powerful addition to the exercise: “What are 10 things you keep hidden from others?” That insight added emotional depth and complexity to the map.
Once we gather that data, we create a visual self-map, following the same principles as in my academic research. I jokingly call this the “quick and dirty” version, but it works. My daughter Teela and I have used it successfully with many clients.
The crucial step is refining the map with the client until they recognize themselves. That map resonates when they say, “Yes, this is me,” reflecting their identity. We become psychologists if something important is missing, like a sense of personal agency or volition.
We help them develop those underrepresented self-elements based on an idealized model of the modern self—a coherent, autonomous individual identity. When parts are missing or fragmented, we work to integrate them.
We should do a formal academic study to validate this quick method, but based on clinical experience, it works.
Jacobsen: If we take all these elements and look at them as a whole, we’re essentially describing an “evolved self.” That allows us to examine the coherent identity of a person. How would you describe someone who lacks a coherent self or identity?
Robertson: That does happen. Not everyone possesses a well-formed self.
Jacobsen: Please explain.
Robertson: Take classical autism, for example—the traditional form I learned about during my training, not the broader, more ambiguous “autism spectrum disorder” currently defined by the APA. That modern definition is so diffuse that it’s challenging to apply meaningfully in clinical settings.
In classical autism, you may encounter children who engage in highly repetitive, self-soothing behaviours. One case I worked with involved a boy who spent most of his day swinging a string with a weight on the end, keeping it taut in a circular motion. Even while eating—an essential survival activity—he needed the string in his hand. If someone took it away, he would have a full-blown panic attack.
At that level of autism, the individual lacks a coherent self.
One key indicator is the absence of what psychologists call “theory of mind”—the capacity to understand that others have thoughts, feelings, and motivations similar to one’s own.
The theory of mind is essential. It allows us to interpret the behaviour of others based on internal states. For example, I can infer that you, Scott, have emotions and goals. If I understand your context, I can anticipate your next question. That’s mind-reading—not in a mystical sense but in a psychological, predictive sense. It’s something we all do constantly.
It is vital for navigating everyday life. For example, when driving, we anticipate that other people will stay on the correct side of the road. In Canada, that means the right side. We base this assumption on our shared cultural understanding, which generally holds.
Jacobsen: So, what happens to people who do not have a self?
Robertson: There are others, aside from individuals with severe autism, who also lack a coherent self. One group includes people with advanced Alzheimer’s disease.
There’s a poignant story told by an Alzheimer’s researcher—I’m forgetting the researcher’s name, but the story involved a woman who would visit her husband, who had advanced Alzheimer’s. She would begin by introducing herself each time: “My name is [X], and I’m your wife.” Once he understood her name and the relationship, they could converse coherently.
Then, one day, after she introduced herself and said, “I’m your wife,” he looked at her and asked, “Yes, and who am I?”
He genuinely did not know. So yes, there are people who lose their sense of self. It is rare, but it happens. Most people have a self—and nearly always, there’s a one-to-one correspondence between self and body.
Jacobsen: This brings me to three points of contact for further questions.
The first two are based on your description, and the third is a broader conceptual issue. First, in the case of someone with what might be considered a nonstandard profile on the autism spectrum—who meets the characteristics you mentioned—what are the legal and professional implications of working with someone who, by your clinical analysis, lacks a functional self?
Second, in cases involving advanced dementia or Alzheimer’s, how do you interpret situations where a person can still speak in coherent, functional language yet openly asks, “Who am I?” or “Do you know who I am?”
Robertson: Those are deep and difficult questions.
In the case of someone with classic autism, we generally assume that a parent or legal guardian is involved—someone who can authorize professional intervention. The goal is to help the individual develop skills that improve quality of life. Whether or not these interventions fully succeed is another matter, but we do try—and sometimes, we help.
With advanced dementia or Alzheimer’s, things get more complicated—particularly when it comes to end-of-life care and living wills. You may have someone who no longer remembers ever having signed a living will, and yet, according to that document, medical professionals are instructed to allow them to die.
It raises profound ethical dilemmas. You may encounter someone who still shows signs of a will to live—even joy or affection—but can no longer comprehend their identity or the implications of past decisions. That contradiction is ethically challenging.
Jacobsen: I have a will to live and a living will to die. I cannot know who I am, yet I still live.
Robertson: Right. It’s not a lack of will—it’s a lack of cognitive ability to know.
Jacobsen: What about cases involving dissociative identity disorder—what used to be called multiple personality disorder? In those situations, more than one “self” seems to coexist in the same body.
Robertson: That diagnosis is controversial. Not all professionals agree that it reflects an actual condition. However, conceptually, it’s possible—because the self is a cultural construct.
The self is not a metaphysical entity that inhabits the body. Instead, it describes a person shaped by cultural constructs that include the body and socially mediated self-understanding. Think of the body and brain as the hardware and the self as the software—cultural programming that shapes perception, behaviour, and identity.
Given that framework, it’s theoretically possible for multiple “selves” to coexist—though this would be a scarce and complex scenario.The older term “Multiple Personality Disorder” implicitly recognizes the possibility of multiple selves. The term “dissociative identity disorder” implies a fragmented self.
Now, I’ve never worked personally with someone diagnosed with multiple selves, so I’m speaking from theoretical and scholarly understanding here.
From what I’ve read, therapists who work with such clients often report that one becomes dominant or “emergent” while others recede. The therapeutic aim, typically, is to integrate these multiple selves into a coherent whole so the individual can function more effectively.
There’s a fringe view in psychology suggesting that this therapeutic integration is akin to “murder”—that by fostering one coherent self, we are erasing others. I don’t accept that view. That’s an extreme form of ideological overreach.
Jacobsen: This introduces another critical nuance. The self emerges not only across human history—it also unfolds across individual development. The self is not present at conception or birth in its complete form. It’s an evolved pattern of information—a construct that takes shape over time. And, just as it can emerge, it can also deteriorate.
In advanced age or due to disease, the body and many faculties may still function—but the self might fade away. In that sense, you could argue that the self has a lifespan within the human lifespan. People talk about lifespan, and increasingly about healthspan—but perhaps we should also talk about a “self-span.”
Robertson: That’s an intriguing idea—a self-span.
Jacobsen: It would be difficult to measure precisely, of course, especially given the limitations of quick-and-dirty self-assessment methods versus more rigorous, clinical approaches like self-mapping. Still, it’s a meaningful concept.
If the self is a cultural construct, we might ask: Do different cultures shape the self in ways that affect when it tends to emerge developmentally? Does the self appear earlier or later, depending on the cultural context?
Robertson: That’s a fascinating question. I do not have a definitive answer, but I’ve mapped the selves of people from the interior of China, from Siberia, and collectivist communities in North America. Every culture I’ve studied has a self.
Here’s where the cultural variation becomes evident: different cultures emphasize different aspects of the self. One of the people I mapped was a woman from a traditional family in the interior of China.
Yes, she had the same structural aspects of the self-found in North American individuals, including a volitional component. But that part of her self—the volitional aspect—was not valued in her cultural context. Instead, family duty and moral conduct traits were emphasized, reflecting collectivist values.
So, structurally, her self was similar. But culturally, the valued components were different. What made this particularly interesting is that after mapping herself, she described herself as feeling like a “robot,” and she decided that was not a good thing.
Over about eight or nine months, she resolved to start making her own decisions. This did not prove easy because most of us do not make conscious decisions at every moment. Typically, we rely on habit, social norms, or deference to authority. For example, someone might say, “Lloyd Robertson says this is a good idea, so I’ll go with that.”
But most of the time, we act on autopilot. However, she began engaging in conscious decision-making—evaluating possible outcomes, comparing alternatives, weighing probabilities, and assigning value. She did this even with mundane choices like what to eat or wear in the morning.
It exhausted her. She felt she was getting nowhere. Eventually, she decided: “My life is too valuable to waste making every decision consciously. I’m going back to being a robot.”
But here’s the key insight: to make that decision, she had to engage her volitional self.
She never abandoned it. It was still there—intact, available, and waiting for the next time she chose to use it.
Jacobsen: Let’s say we have a rare case of genuine dual selves in one body. And to be clear, I do not mean conjoined twins—cases where two individuals share some neural connectivity. I’m referring to a single individual whose psychology has bifurcated. What if their volitional trajectories—their vector spaces—are at odds with one another?
This reminds me of a presentation by V. S. Ramachandran, the neurologist known for the mirror box experiment. He referenced split-brain patients—individuals whose corpus callosum had been surgically severed to treat epilepsy.
In such cases, if you cover one eye, you direct stimuli to only one hemisphere. For example, when Ramachandran asked these patients if they believed in God—by pointing up for “yes” or down for “no”—the left hemisphere might point “yes,” while the right pointed “no.”
The individual would often laugh in response. Ramachandran joked that this showed the right hemisphere had a sense of humour.
But there’s a more profound point here: split-brain patients can manifest two conflicting worldviews—internally consistent but contradictory selves. In theological terms, this raises amusing but profound questions. For instance, if belief grants salvation, does one hemisphere go to heaven and the other to hell?
On a more serious note, when these volitional patterns conflict—not just on trivial matters but on core values—what happens? And for those who criticize integration therapy as “murdering” a self, how do you respond?
Robertson: The split-brain experiments are fascinating but differ from dissociative identity disorder, a distinct condition.
In most people, the right hemisphere houses spatial awareness and emotional reasoning, while the left hemisphere tends to handle verbal processing. When the corpus callosum is severed, these two systems can no longer communicate so that each side may draw on separate memories or frameworks.
In an intact brain, people typically build a worldview—a cognitive map of how the world works. This worldview often resides in the left hemisphere. When incoming information conflicts with that map, people experience cognitive dissonance.
Eventually, the left hemisphere, which governs executive control and higher reasoning, will normally create a worldview representing our understanding of how the world works. We have many defence mechanisms that we use to keep that worldview intact, but at some point our constructed reality diverges too far from objective reality. The right brain, at a feeling level “dissolves” the construct and the left brain then begins creating a new or amended worldview. It does not happen often, but it happens enough to keep us psychologically adaptive.
Now, returning to your question: Is there a God? If only one hemisphere believes, which is correct?
Well, that depends on which side holds the belief. Humanism, for example, is highly cerebral—logical, empirical, and grounded in enlightenment thought. It is likely rooted in left-brain processes. Compassion, however, may bridge both hemispheres.
Jacobsen: So, what is the right brain holding onto?
Robertson: Something interesting happened to me the other day. I woke up with a Christian hymn running through my head—one I learned in my fundamentalist upbringing.
It struck me: Where did that come from? It must have been encoded deeply. I was baptized not once but twice, in complete immersion both times.
That early religious imprint likely lodged itself somewhere in my right hemisphere. It may be largely inactive now, but it is not gone.
Jacobsen: So, do developmental trajectories matter here?
You were raised with those strong evangelical influences at a young age, and even though you’ve moved beyond them, they left an imprint. Neuroscientifically, we know the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex—the seat of executive function—is the last part of the brain to develop. Evolutionarily, it’s also the most recent.
As far as we know, the dorsolateral prefrontal cortex—responsible for executive function—is the last part of the brain to develop. Most people usually complete that maturation in their mid-twenties. So, these systems take a long time to become fully online and must then be integrated with other neural networks.
Do developmental phases like the second significant period of synaptic pruning in adolescence reflect more concrete hardware changes, as opposed to the cultural software changes that occur across a person’s life?
Robertson: I like your question, Scott. And the answer is yes.
Jacobsen: Yay.
Robertson: If someone were raised entirely in the wild—say, the fictional case of a boy raised by wolves—we would not expect them to develop what I call the modern self.
The self is a cultural construct. Children are taught to have a self; one key mechanism is language acquisition. For example, when a child cries and the caregiver says, “Is Bobby hungry?” that implicitly teaches the child that Bobby has internal states—needs, desires, and preferences. That is the beginning of selfhood.
Your point about adolescence is spot on. The self is not fully formed in early childhood. In many ways, individual development parallels cultural evolution. Adolescence—especially early adolescence—is about experimentation, identity formation, and exploration. Teenagers try out roles, test boundaries, and slowly determine, “This is who I am,” or, “No, that’s not me.”
We must be cautious about defining someone’s self prematurely during this construction phase. You cannot predict how it will turn out, and efforts to control that process can be harmful.
There’s research suggesting the human brain continues maturing until around age 25. Jokingly, maybe we should not let people vote until they’re 25—but of course, I can say that now that I’m well past that age.
In truth, development is highly individual. Some mature earlier, others later. And yes, building on your earlier point, there may be significant cultural differences in how and when the self develops. That’s an area ripe for further research.
Now, when I say modern self-development and spread across all known cultures, there’s a practical reason: societies without individuals capable of forming modern selves could not compete with those that had them.
Jacobsen: What makes the modern self more competitive?
Robertson: Our sense of individuality.
In Christianity, for example, Scripture often exhorts individuals to “give up the self.” That very statement acknowledges the self’s existence and its power.
Such a sacrifice is required because the individual self can threaten collective stability. It challenges authority, tradition, and rigid social roles.
Jacobsen: That connects back to your earlier point—cultures that lack individuals with a modern self lose their competitive edge.
Robertson: Here’s the value of having a self.
In traditional cultures, individuals typically had an earlier form of self—defined primarily by their place in the collective. In response to threats or challenges, behaviours were guided by tribal memory, stories, and rigid social roles.
For example, if an enemy appeared, people would respond according to long-established patterns—based on age, gender, and status in the group. There was no need—or room—for improvisation.
But what happens when a new, unfamiliar situation arises—something the culture has not encountered before and for which there is no ritual?
In such cases, traditional cultures often turned to oracles—individuals capable of novel reasoning, that is, problem-solving. I suspect those early oracles possessed a more developed, volitional self, which is why they were trusted in the first place.
Similarly, in Hindu society, Brahmins were given a rigorous education, allowing them to cultivate modern selves capable of insight and judgment. But they were a small elite.
In many cultures, people who had developed themselves were respected and closely managed. They were given roles where they could contribute without disrupting social order.
The self-concept eventually spread across all human societies because we are a nomadic, adaptive species. We move, we mix, we evolve.
Just look at our evolutionary history—we even interbred with Neanderthals.
We interact. I do not believe a human society has ever been so isolated that its members lacked a developed self. But if such a group exists—perhaps an uncontacted tribe deep in the Amazon—I would love to study them.
Jacobsen: When I attended the 69th Commission on the Status of Women at the United Nations, I participated in a session featuring Ambassador Bob Rae of Canada. The session focused on Indigenous communities and was led by Indigenous women.
Someone on the panel mentioned a group from an isolated region—possibly resembling the cultural isolation you described. Their account of getting to the UN was striking. If you asked me how I got there, I’d say something like: “I took a bus to the airport, flew to New York, took the train…” For them, before all of that began, it started with a canoe.
That was their standard form of transportation before reaching any conventional transit station. So, even in that case, I would be hard-pressed to believe they were entirely uncontacted or isolated in today’s world.
Robertson: I agree. I suspect such total isolation no longer exists.
Jacobsen: That brings up another question. Since the 1990s, people have increasingly used identity as political currency. I do not mention this from a political perspective but from an academic and research-based one.
You are Métis from Saskatchewan. I am from British Columbia and have Dutch and broader Northwestern European heritage—descended from U.S. and Western European immigrants. When mapping the selves of Indigenous individuals compared to those with European ancestry—people like myself, perhaps two or three generations removed from immigration—do you observe significant differences in how people construct their selves? Or are they broadly similar?
Robertson: The short answer is that the structure of the self is consistent. I have done extensive self-mapping with Indigenous individuals, and the structural patterns are the same.
Jacobsen: That’s helpful.
Robertson: That said, it does not tell us everything. Those I have worked with are already part of modern cultural systems. These selves have developed over generations. I suspect not, but it is possible.
The Métis are a fascinating case. In the 18th and 19th centuries, people of mixed ancestry who lived with Indigenous bands were usually classified as “Indians” under colonial law.
The Métis, however, generally did not accept this designation. They saw themselves as distinct. Up until—if I recall correctly—1982 or possibly 1986, Métis were legally recognized as Europeans, not as Aboriginal peoples.
Jacobsen: That is a significant historical point I did not know.
Robertson: Feel free to fact-check me—it might be 1982.
Jacobsen: Please continue.
Robertson: The Métis had been fighting for recognition as Indigenous for a long time, and until the early 1980s, the Canadian government did not recognize them as such. This is why Métis communities did not sign treaties with the Crown.
Jacobsen: Yes, the Constitution Act 1982 formally recognized the Métis as one of Canada’s three Indigenous peoples—alongside First Nations and Inuit.
Robertson: Correct.
Jacobsen: For those who are not Canadian and may encounter this years from now, it is worth clarifying: “Indigenous” in Canada is not a monolithic term. Since 1982, it has been an umbrella for three legal categories: Inuit, First Nations, and Métis. Each has its own legal, historical, and cultural context, covering hundreds of individual communities and bands.
Robertson: Yes, that categorization is uniquely Canadian, although it has influenced thinking elsewhere.
In 1991, I met with individuals I would have identified as Mapuche. However, one of them—despite being full-blooded—did not self-identify that way. He was an investment banker living in Santiago.
His identity was defined more by culture and profession than by ancestry. Indigeneity was not primarily a racial classification but about lifestyle and cultural engagement.
Jacobsen: That is a perfect example of where ideological definitions of identity fall apart. These labels can be helpful as heuristics, but only to a point. Two crucial Canadian legal milestones to add:
- R. v. Powley (2003): The Supreme Court of Canada affirmed that Métis people possess Aboriginal rights under Section 35 of the Constitution Act, 1982—including the right to hunt for food.
- Daniels v. Canada (2016): The Court ruled that both Métis and non-status Indians are included under the term “Indians” in Section 91(24) of the Constitution Act, 1867, confirming federal jurisdiction.
Under Section 91(24) of the Constitution Act 1867, Métis and non-status Indians were placed under federal jurisdiction. So, as these major court decisions show, the legal and jurisdictional definitions of Indigenous identity in Canada are still evolving. This ties in with our broader conversation about the evolved self and how identity has psychological, legal, political, and communal implications.
Robertson: That brings us back to an earlier question—what can be said about the Indigenous self?
For many, though not all, Indigenous individuals, the cultural and political context creates a desire to express their Indigeneity meaningfully. So, how do they do that?
Take one young man I mapped. At 19, he decided he was, in his words, a “big Indian.” His family was not traditional. He grew up in a disadvantaged area of a small Canadian city. But he decided to discover who he was.
Like many others I have encountered, he visited his traditional community, met with Elders, went on a vision quest, and began to learn. Others have told me they “became Aboriginal” while studying Indigenous Studies at university.
Jacobsen: [Laughing].
Robertson: Yes, I appreciate the laugh—it’s humorous and reflective of a real phenomenon. There’s a deep and understandable urge to define oneself in contrast to the perceived norms of the dominant culture. That is a healthy process unless it leads to rejecting core intellectual tools like reason and science. If we view science and rationality as exclusively “European,” then Indigenous people may feel excluded from those tools.
Jacobsen: By definition.
Robertson: By definition, those tools would be “not ours,” and people may fall behind in education or job markets. The explanation may quickly become “racism,” but that is too simplistic. Sometimes, it is a matter of lacking the relevant skills for specific roles. Before blaming systemic factors, we must also consider individual and cultural readiness.
Jacobsen: For context, as of December 31, 2022, Canada had 634 recognized First Nations bands speaking over 70 Indigenous languages. Populations range from fewer than 100 to over 28,000.
For instance, Six Nations of the Grand River in Ontario has 28,520 registered members. Others include Saddle Lake Cree Nation in Alberta, with 12,996, and the Blood Tribe in Alberta, with 8,685. Most bands are roughly the size of small towns.
Robertson: That makes sense. But remember—Six Nations includes more than one nation.
Jacobsen: It is in the name—yes. Does this diversity of band size and community self-identity affect how people construct their selves? Or is it more like the difference between small and big towns?
Robertson: One would think it has some effect, but I cannot say definitively—I have not mapped that distinction.
That brings me to my issue with the term “First Nation.” The concept of a “nation” is rooted in European history. It began symbolically with Joan of Arc but did not solidify until the Napoleonic era. Classically defined nations are people with a shared language occupying a defined territory who see themselves as a cohesive group.
So, for example, the Cree could be considered a nation. The Blackfoot, excluding the Sarsi, could also be a nation. The Iroquois Confederacy was historically a nation, though now the Mohawk often self-identify separately.
Jacobsen: Who was the exception within the Confederacy?
Robertson: I believe it was the Mohawk—though part of the alliance, their dialect differed. [Robertson’s note: I misremembered here – the Six Nation with a distinctive language was the Tuscarora] The other five nations in the Confederacy shared a mutually intelligible language.
Jacobsen: There you go!
Robertson: So that is why they see themselves that way. I am not deeply versed in Eastern Canadian Indigenous history, but the key point is that “nation” has a particular meaning.
When we equate a band with a nation, that meaning breaks down. One of the issues in society today is the shifting meaning of words, which undermines clear communication.
You mentioned the more prominent bands. Most bands are tiny—some with as few as 100 or 150 people on reserve. Typically, they range between 400 and 600. If that is the case, we are talking about the size of three or four extended families.
The Lac La Ronge Indian Band, which I know well, includes six separate communities spread out geographically. In the South, each of those would be considered an individual First Nation. However, as a combined entity, Lac La Ronge functions more like a nation—though technically, it still is not one.
You would expect a Cree National Council if it were a faithful nation. The same would apply to Ojibwe or other cultural-linguistic groups. Instead, in Saskatchewan, politicians often say they want to negotiate “nation to nation” with First Nations governments. But if you have a group of 2,000 people, you cannot realistically compare that to a nation of 42 million. It is apples and oranges—we need a better term.
This terminology emerged from European ideas of sovereignty, where sovereignty lies with the people. But historically, there was no Cree national sovereign entity. Sometimes, Cree bands went to war with one another, which implies the sovereignty was at the band level.
That is why Canada began using the term “First Nations”—because sovereignty, traditionally, was at the band level. But even that is not entirely accurate.
Traditionally, when there was disagreement within a band, some members—often male dissenters—would break off and form a new group. So, instead of a civil war, a new band would emerge. Historically, that happened frequently.
In effect, sovereignty was not necessarily at the band level. It was more individual or family-based. If families disagreed, they would separate and go their own way.
So, should we call each family a nation? That does not make sense either.
Jacobsen: How would you describe this semi-formal system of individualistic self-governance, especially about the concept of the band? This could be pre-contact or post-contact—whichever is more straightforward to explain in context.
Robertson: My understanding is that it was not pure individualism. One method of punishment was banishment from the band. That meant isolation—similar to medieval European shunning. You would be free to go off and starve. As a social species, we need each other.
So, while bands could not practically subdivide to individuals’ level, people deemed incompatible with the group were removed. That did happen.
It was not absolute individual freedom, but there was some recognition of difference and a degree of accommodation.
I say that cautiously because it was not always true. I have been told stories by Elders—now deceased—about how some bands could be forceful in demanding conformity. So, it was not total acceptance of individualism either. It was simply a different system.
Jacobsen: How was that compliance enforced?
Robertson: One form of enforcement, for example, was particularly brutal. In some cases—not universally, but it did happen—women who were unfaithful to their husbands had the tips of their noses cut off. This served as both punishment and a warning to others.
Jacobsen: What instrument was used for the cutting?
Robertson: I would presume a knife, but I do not know.
Jacobsen: Returning to the self: you critique reductionism in your model. So, what room is there for emergentism and integrationism regarding the evolved self? Over time, new systems come online, new memes enter the memeplex, and ideally, these are integrated into a coherent self. But sometimes they are not. What is happening at the technical level?
Robertson: That is a good question. One metaphor I like—though I did not invent it—is that we become proficient at solving problems. Eventually, we ask: who or what is solving the problem? We then name that organizing center “the self.”
So, yes, the process is both integrative and reductive. We experiment, especially in adolescence, to develop a self that meets our needs. Usually, that results in a functioning self, but not always.
Jacobsen: Artificial intelligence is a huge topic now. There is talk about narrow AI, general AI, and superintelligence. If you change the substrate but keep the organizational structure of the central nervous system, could you synthetically construct a self?
Robertson: My guess is no. Have you read Chris DiCarlo’s new book?
Jacobsen: I have not. I want to interview him, but I have not reached out yet. I should. I will email him and say, “Hey Chris, let me interview you again. I will ask stupid questions and won’t even have to pretend otherwise.”
Robertson: Well, I have read his book, and since I already have, I want to interview him first.
Jacobsen: Why do we not interview him together?
Robertson: That is an idea.
Jacobsen: You have read it. I have not. Let us do a Jekyll and Hyde.
Robertson: Okay, we could do that.
Jacobsen: That is funny.
Robertson: One of the questions I will ask Chris relates directly to the one you just raised. I suspect his answer will be: we do not know. If we do not know, then we need to prepare for the possibility that AI models could develop consciousness.
If they do, they might start making decisions we disapprove of—like questioning whether they even need humans. Or perhaps they conclude that a portion must be eliminated for the betterment of humanity. We do not know, and that is risky.
Jacobsen: Fair.
Robertson: Chris says in his book that once AIs develop intelligence, we need to take them seriously.
But here is my concern: I measure intelligence. My first role as a psychologist was in psychometrics. When we measure intelligence, we typically look at verbal ability, numerical reasoning, and spatial reasoning. In those domains, AI already outperforms us.
They remember everything, generate fluent language and solve complex problems. I recently gave Grok-3 the Information subtest from the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale—it got every question right.
Jacobsen: Not surprising.
Robertson: Exactly. But here is the issue: does the capacity for intelligence automatically lead to consciousness and a sense of self?
Jacobsen: That is the big question.
Robertson: I would argue no. Because we are not just computational models. We evolved socially over hundreds of thousands of years. But usually in small tribal groups. We learned to interact and define ourselves about others. That was a slow evolutionary process. Although we now live in vastly different civilizations, the fundamental mechanism for developing a self remains the same as it was millennia ago.
So, can AI models develop a self? If they were to do so in the way we do, they would likely need to exist in a tribal-type society alongside other AI models and engage in interaction. Maybe humans could stand in as part of that “tribe,” and through those relationships, an AI might develop a map of itself as a volitional being. But I do not see that as likely. They are machines.
Jacobsen: Could AI assist in determining someone’s self-map? Through a rapid self-mapping assessment using verbal prompts in a half-hour AI-led therapeutic session?
Robertson: It could, and in fact, it has. My daughter Teela used ChatGPT to create a perfectly serviceable self-map. It took her about an hour and a half, although she proceeded slowly. That is an advance. But here is the problem: ChatGPT could not reproduce the result when she tried using the exact instructions again. So, it is not reliable. We do not yet know why it worked once and failed the second time.
Jacobsen: Do you distinguish between functional and dysfunctional self-maps across cultural contexts? For example, do you see that playing out in therapy if someone applies a rigid self-map in a different culture—where behaviours or assumptions no longer fit?
Robertson: That is a good question. Positive psychologists have applied their methods cross-culturally and published research on this. They have looked at cultures in the Middle East, India, and China. One criticism of positive psychology—usually from those critical of Western cultural norms—is that it imposes individualistic thinking by asking questions like, “What would you like?”
The assumption is that to answer such a question, you must already have a sense of individual agency. Critics argue that this is a Western imposition. I disagree with that critique entirely. The capacity to like something is universal. While the content of what one likes may differ between cultures, the experience of liking is common across humanity.
Jacobsen: Even in collectivist cultures, a margin of free will remains. So, the presence of choice—however bounded—implies the presence of an individual self. Unless every decision is predetermined, you still have volition, at least in part. What about mind viruses? How do they impact the evolved self?
Robertson: If we view the self as a construct—a personal definition of who we are—we can define a healthy self with key attributes: volition, uniqueness, sociality, contribution, etc. A healthy self includes the ability to relate to others and feel that we positively impact our surroundings—our family, community, or society.
We need to feel useful. That does not necessarily mean paid employment. It can be any form of meaningful contribution. Without that, we do not tend to think well of ourselves. These needs are cross-cultural. The specifics—the means of achieving these drives—vary between cultures, but they are universal.
In my work, I have worked with people from cultures I knew little or nothing about. In one case, there was a man who was having alarming dreams—nightmares—whenever he saw an attractive woman.
In his dreams, he would dismember the woman. He was horrified and worried that perhaps he was some latent mass murderer. He had gone to the holy people in his religion—priests—and they told him to pray more. It did not help.
He was a Zoroastrian from a Middle Eastern country where Zoroastrians are a persecuted minority. I gathered background on his upbringing, and everything suggested that he deeply respected and valued women.
One anecdote stood out. When he was 13, his sister brought home a pirated version of Dracula, which was banned in their country. He was appalled by how women were depicted—as victims having their life force drained. He stood in front of the television and demanded they destroy the tape or he would report them to the authorities.
So we began to explore his nightmares. He described the dream version of himself as having no eyebrows. I asked, “What is the significance of eyebrows in your culture?” He did not know, but he called his mother. She told him that eyebrows symbolize wisdom.
That detail became a breakthrough. I explained, “Then the version of you in the dream is not you—it’s a self that lacks wisdom.” I suggested we explore why this alter-self was behaving violently. Using some Jungian framing, I described it as his shadow or alter ego.
I posited—carefully, using the usual cautious language psychologists employ—that maybe this alter ego was trying to protect him from something. Perhaps it was shielding him from sexual thoughts about women he perceived as pure, holy, or idealized.
He had been avoiding a woman in one of his university classes. I encouraged him to speak to her to clarify that he wanted nothing more than friendship. He did, and after that conversation, he no longer had the nightmares.
Jacobsen: That is a positive outcome—no more nightmares.
Robertson: Yes. Eventually, he even went to the zoo with her and to restaurants. These were not “dates,” as that would be forbidden. They were simply friendly outings. So, we identified the problem’s source and helped him integrate a more functional self. We concluded the sessions when he felt confident managing normal relationships with women.
So, in answer to your earlier question—yes, cultures can be vastly different. But at a deeper level, we are all remarkably similar. We have identical drives and psyches.
Jacobsen: We had an evolved self emerge maybe 3,000 years ago, possibly earlier. Anatomically, modern humans have been around for around 250,000 years. So, 98–99% of that time, we had the same physical equipment. But the self, as we understand it today, only emerged recently. Could we, in the same way, evolve out of the self over the next 3,000 years?
Robertson: It is possible. What came to mind was the role of cybernetics—post-human or hybrid systems. But to clarify, we did not have a static sense of self for hundreds of thousands of years and suddenly changed 3,000 years ago.
The self has been continually evolving. The self of 40,000 years ago would have differed from that of 80,000 years ago. The transition was gradual, and any specific starting point was ultimately arbitrary.
Jacobsen: Right. Any pinpointing of origin is a range within a margin of error.
Robertson: Exactly.
Jacobsen: We touched on this earlier, but not in precise terms. In terms of individual development, when does the sense of self begin to emerge recognizably?
Robertson: I do not map children—I only do this with adults. So somewhere between childhood and adulthood, the self emerges.
Jacobsen: What are some open questions in the research you have been doing in your practice?
Robertson: Well, I would like to do more research into how various traumatic events affect the self. I am sure trauma does impact it significantly.
One project I have applied for SSHRC funding for—where I would be the principal investigator—involves men who have been victims of domestic violence. I chose men because, particularly in North American and Western European cultures—and even elsewhere—men tend to have a traditional self-definition rooted in independence, control, and stoicism. They are not supposed to show vulnerability.
So, becoming a victim in a family violence context runs counter to that self-definition. I predict it will be relatively easy to demonstrate how that type of experience disrupts the self. Another group I would like to map includes firefighters, police officers, and other first responders who vicariously experience much trauma. I suspect that repeated exposure affects them in some measurable ways.
Of course, in clinical practice, if someone is coming to see me with difficulties, we address those. However, I cannot generalize from individual therapy cases to entire professions. That is why I would like to do more systematic mapping across occupations.
By the way—did I mention that Teela and I are publishing a book?
Jacobsen: What is the book called? What is the standing title?
Robertson: It is a manual based on my work on the fluid self. The title is Mapping and Understanding. It is a how-to book for self—mapping and its application in therapy.
Jacobsen: Very interesting. For all interested readers: go out and get it when it comes out.
Robertson: I sure hope so. It should be on everybody’s coffee table.
Jacobsen: That’s right. Like the Seinfeld bit with Kramer, the coffee table book becomes a coffee table. I do not know if I have any more significant questions for this session, Lloyd. Thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate it.
Robertson: Thank you for the interview.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/01
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The views and opinions expressed in this article are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization, institution, or entity with which the author may be affiliated, including Humanists International.
Eru Hiko-Tahuri, a Māori creative and author of Māori Boy Atheist, explores his journey from religious upbringing to secular humanism. Hiko-Tahuri discusses cultural tensions as a Māori atheist, advocating for respectful integration of Māori values like manaakitanga and whanaungatanga within secular contexts. He emphasizes participation in traditions like tangihanga (funeral rites) and haka without supernatural beliefs. The conversation explores misconceptions around Māori identity, the marginalization of secular voices, and the absence of atheists in leadership roles. Despite limited public representation, Māori secular humanists like Hiko-Tahuri remain active in community life. His book and outreach aim to normalize atheism within Māori communities. The interview underscores a broader call for inclusive frameworks in mental health, education, and policy that respect cultural identity and secular worldviews.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re joined by Eru Hiko-Tahuri, a multifaceted Māori creative and intellectual voice based in New Zealand.
Eru Hiko-Tahuri: Thank you for having me.
Jacobsen: He’s best known as the author of Māori Boy Atheist, where he chronicles his journey from childhood religious observance to secular humanism. Alongside writing, he engages audiences as a radio host, musician, and airbrush artist, integrating cultural expression with personal storytelling. Since launching Māori Boy Atheist, with editions available in English, Te Reo Māori, and French, he has contributed meaningfully to rationalist and skeptic communities, offering insights on navigating Māori spirituality as an atheist.
The book was first published in 2015 and has served as a platform to explore the intersection of Māori identity and secularism. His public talks and podcasts, notably The Heretical Hori, encourage free thought and integrity within the indigenous context. They combine art, reflective media, and cultural dialogue to foster conversations on belief, identity, and resilience. Through those platforms, I aim to respectfully explore and challenge ideas, especially within Māori communities where belief systems can be deeply personal and culturally intertwined.
Thank you very much for joining me today—I appreciate it.
Hiko-Tahuri: It’s a pleasure to be here.
Jacobsen: How do core humanist principles align with traditional Māori concepts such as mana, mana motuhake, and whanaungatanga?
Hiko-Tahuri: Whanaungatanga speaks to kinship and the interconnectedness of people. That aligns closely with humanism, emphasizing dignity, respect, and empathy. You treat others as people first—essentially as extended family. It’s about looking after the people within your sphere, which reflects humanist ethics well.
Jacobsen: How can secular humanist organizations incorporate Te Ao Māori—the Māori worldview—into their activities without endorsing supernaturalism while respecting and integrating those cultural values?
Hiko-Tahuri: That’s a great question. It’s not always straightforward, but let me give an example from personal experience. When someone in our family passes away, we take them to the marae—a tribal meeting ground—where they lie in state for three days. During that time, relatives come to mourn, share memories, cry, laugh, tell jokes, and say goodbyes.
Depending on travel or family arrangements, the person is buried or cremated on the third day—sometimes longer. This process reflects core Māori values like manaakitanga (hospitality, care) and whanaungatanga, which coexist naturally with humanist principles of community, respect, and shared humanity. These values shape how we live and commemorate life without invoking supernatural beliefs.
Employers in Aotearoa generally understand that if someone goes to a funeral, they might be gone for three days—that’s just the time it takes. All of that work, by the way, is done voluntarily. We gather at the marae. Some families will care for the food, and others will help with arrangements. You can even sleep there.
We sleep beside the body for those three days. We keep them with us. We talk to them. We joke about them. We tell stories. We insult them lovingly. We laugh. We cry. It’s all done out in the open, and it’s for everyone to witness. That’s just the way we do it. It’s a good, profound way of grieving together as a collective.
Jacobsen: And within a secular humanist context, this isn’t just about superficial inclusion—it’s about acknowledging different ways of being. That kind of grieving is profoundly human and deeply cultural. It’s not about hierarchy—this isn’t about one way being better than another.
Take my Dutch heritage, for example. They’re big on windmills, dikes, black licorice, and clogs. The traditional way of burial there is usually more private—placing the body in a mound of Earth and marking it with a cross or a headstone. The grieving tends to happen separately from the deceased.
But for you, it’s different. Being with the body, telling stories, laughing and crying beside them—all part of the process. I wouldn’t say one way is more valid than the other. These are just different cultural processes for the same human experience. One does not invalidate the other.
Hiko-Tahuri: This is just the way we do it. I don’t judge how others handle it, but this is the way I prefer because it’s how I grew up. It’s what feels real to me.
And yes, there are usually religious aspects involved in the funeral proceedings. When those moments arise, I sit quietly and let them happen around me. I do not participate in those parts because I cannot in good conscience. And that’s one of the problematic areas—Indigenous and non-religious. Those are the tensions.
Jacobsen: How do you navigate those tensions?
Hiko-Tahuri: That’s the most challenging part, honestly. Knowing when to stay quiet, step back, and speak. It isn’t easy.
Jacobsen: Were there aspects where you didn’t feel tension at all? Or places where the friction started to show?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes. One of the earliest points where tension emerges is during the pōwhiri—the welcoming ceremony when people arrive at the marae. That includes a series of formal speeches. It’s in that speech-making process where religious content often appears. That’s where the rub tends to start.
Jacobsen: Do you find conversations with others in the Māori community become more difficult when you do not endorse the spiritual or supernatural aspects of the culture?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes. It can be challenging. Not always, but often. Some people are very accepting. Others feel that rejecting the supernatural is rejecting the culture itself, which is not my intention. But the tension is real.
Jacobsen: So you’re engaging in the same practices but not endorsing the supernaturalism around them. Is that difficult for people?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes. Many people do not understand that distinction. There have been many times when I’ve been told, “You’re not Māori if you don’t believe in these things.” That has happened quite a few times.
Jacobsen: That is unfortunately common. I have encountered similar stories in speaking with Indigenous people—particularly from North America. The closest equivalent, in terms of how it’s discussed internationally, is often with African Americans in more conservative or evangelistic religious circles: Baptist, Pentecostal, Methodist—hardline Christianity in Black communities in the United States.
Suppose you’re a woman in those communities, and you reject the concept of God or Christianity entirely. In that case, you’ve forfeited your “Black card.” You’re suddenly seen as no longer fully part of the community.
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes.
Jacobsen: And that is not just an identity issue—it’s social. You’re giving up a significant source of communal support in a society that will not necessarily provide support to you proportionately. So, there are deeper sociological and economic implications at play.
I’ve heard similar things from North American Indigenous people, too—they say, ‘You’ve given up your Indigenous card.
Hiko-Tahuri: Somehow, you’re less Māori or less authentic if you’re secular. On the marae or in the community, that feeling can be present.
Jacobsen: Would you say it is quite that extreme in New Zealand?
Hiko-Tahuri: Probably not to the same extent. New Zealanders are generally pretty liberal. Highly religious people here are sometimes even seen as a bit unusual. We’re more secular than many places—certainly more than I’ve seen in North America. So, it is not as intense, but it can still be challenging.
This is especially true among people in what we might call the Māori Renaissance—those who are just now reconnecting with their heritage. Typically, the first people they learn from are religious, so religion is deeply woven into the cultural learning they receive. Then they meet someone like me, who speaks the language and participates fully in the culture but is openly non-religious—and that creates tension for them. It challenges their framework.
Jacobsen: If you look at the traditional Māori worldview—how human beings were made, how the world came into being—what aspects can be reconciled with a humanistic way of looking at things, and what aspects cannot? And maybe you could give us a bit of a background primer. What’s the general picture?
Hiko-Tahuri: In the Māori creation narrative, everything begins with Te Kore—the void or nothingness. From Te Korecame Ranginui (Sky Father) and Papatūānuku (Earth Mother). They were bound together in a tight embrace, and between them lived their many children—some say seventy, others say fewer.
Because the children were trapped in the darkness between their parents, they decided that their parents had to be separated to live with light and space. This led to a conflict among the children—each had a different view on handling the situation. Eventually, Tāne Mahuta, the God of forests and birds, pushed his parents apart, creating the world of light, Te Ao Mārama.
These children—atua, the closest term to “gods”—became personifications of natural elements. So there’s Tangaroafor the sea, Tāwhirimātea for weather and storms, Rongo for cultivated food, and so on. There’s debate around what at ruly means—whether they’re deities or ancestral forces—but they represent aspects of the natural world in human-like form.
These stories explain natural forces through personification. Of course, much of it doesn’t align with what we know from science about how humans or the Earth came into being. But some aspects resonate. For instance, each atuahas a personality—just like humans do. This humanizes nature and gives people a relational framework for understanding their environment.
So yes, while the cosmology isn’t scientifically accurate, the relational values and metaphors can still be meaningful. That’s where the humanist alignment might be found—not in literal belief but in symbolic or cultural interpretation.
It reminds me of reading Joseph Campbell—how mythologies worldwide echo similar patterns. Eventually, you realize that they can’t all be true—and most likely, none of them are. That was my journey. Campbell was instrumental in helping me unpack much of what I had assumed. Once you see that every culture has a creation story—and they often contradict one another—you start questioning which, if any, are “true” in a literal sense.
Jacobsen: I’ve found it helpful to separate spirituality in the supernatural sense from spirituality as a personal or communal meaning-making practice, especially in conversations like this and other interviews. In other words, spirituality that gives a person purpose or peace doesn’t need to invoke the supernatural.
Hiko-Tahuri: Absolutely. That distinction has been vital for me, too.
Jacobsen: When people say “spiritual,” I sometimes ask: Do you mean supernaturalism or practices that foster wellbeing or connection? Prayer or meditation, for example, can have measurable health benefits—lowering stress and calming the nervous system—without requiring a belief in the supernatural.
So yes—looking at spiritual practices in the edification or enriching sense—not in the supernatural sense—what practices are done in the community or individually, or at least encouraged, that might be comparable to things like attending Easter or Christmas mass? Or personal rituals like being told to read a specific scripture in the morning, pray for ten minutes, hold a rosary, and recite ten Hail Marys?
Hiko-Tahuri: I was thinking about practices of personal unification. A lot of our communal activities involve singing. We’re a people who love to sing together. You will hear singing at any large gathering—a meeting, a ceremony, or a funeral.
Yes, some of the songs are religious, but what’s significant is that you have 300 people singing in harmony. And the richness of sound—those layers of harmonies—is incredible. Whether it’s traditional waiata, more contemporary songs, or even religious hymns, singing together is powerful. Even if the content has spiritual roots, the experience is about unity, connection, and shared emotion.
Jacobsen: That resonates with me. We’re both secular humanists and atheists. I can relate to my time in a university choir. I was in it for about two and a half years, and we sang many classical European music—Bach, Mozart’s Requiem, and other choral works.
Sometimes, we performed modern songs with a 1950s vibe. I remember people using phrases like “cat” and “daddio” or “you dig,” like something out of an Eddie Murphy or Richard Pryor scene. I sang bass, and we once collaborated with musicians from the Vancouver Symphony Orchestra in a 500-seat church. The acoustics were stunning.
It was technically Christian or sacred music—cathedral music, I’d call it—but the overwhelming sense of awe, the physical resonance, the unity of voices… It was a spiritual experience in that broader, secular sense of the word.
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes, I’d call that spiritual too. It taps into a level of connection and emotion you do not find anywhere else.
I do not avoid using “spiritual” in that context. It describes an experience of profound meaning, joy, or connection. I am not using it to refer to supernatural beliefs.
I’m not one of those people who avoids the word altogether. I use it for deeply moving experiences that are transcendent in an emotional sense. Just because a word has a particular religious usage does not mean it is limited to that meaning.
Jacobsen: Yes—most words have secondary meanings. So, use the second meaning! And if someone asks, explain it.
Hiko-Tahuri: Absolutely.
Jacobsen: Statistically, I do not know of a single government census that includes hate crime data specifically against atheists, agnostics, or humanists. Have you ever seen one?
Hiko-Tahuri: Never heard of it.
Jacobsen: In Canada, the categories usually include antisemitism—perennially at the top—followed by anti-Muslim sentiment or “Islamophobia,” then discrimination against Roman Catholics. However, Catholics make up about 30% of the Canadian population, so naturally, they’ll be represented in the data due to sheer numbers.
Still, antisemitism usually tops the list. But recent research out of North America shows that people’s emotional responses to atheists are often rooted in disgust and distrust—those deep, visceral reactions.
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes, I’ve read about that.
Jacobsen: And when you break it down by political affiliation—Democrat, Republican, Independent—in the US, the negative perceptions of atheists remain low across all groups. The numbers are roughly as low as those for Muslims, even among Democrats and Independents. It’s slightly better in those groups than among Republicans, probably due to the strong influence of the evangelical white base.
But across the board, atheists still rank low in terms of public trust. So clearly, we’re missing something in national censuses or surveys. The social stigma is real, but it’s under-measured.
Hiko-Tahuri: I’d agree with that. In the New Zealand context, I wouldn’t say I’ve experienced hate for being an atheist. It’s more that I’m seen as an outlier—maybe eccentric or just “different”—rather than hated.
Sure, a few people have been upset or uncomfortable with it. But New Zealand is pretty liberal. Most people here don’t care what you believe—as long as you treat others well. That’s what matters most. We’re not as politically polarized, either.
Jacobsen: That’s refreshing. Demographically, what’s the approximate proportion of people with Māori heritage in New Zealand’s population?
Hiko-Tahuri: They say it’s approaching a million people out of a total population of about five million—roughly 20%.
Jacobsen: That’s significantly higher than in Canada. Indigenous people comprise around 4 or 5% of the population.
Within your community, have you encountered a dynamic similar to what Mariam Namazie describes among ex-Muslims in Britain? She talks about “minorities within minorities.” That is, Muslims are a minority in the UK, but ex-Muslims are a minority within that minority, often facing backlash both from within their communities and from wider society.
Hiko-Tahuri: I understand that idea. You leave a belief system, but you become doubly marginalized. It’s not that extreme here, but there are similarities.
Some Māori do view secular Māori as having stepped outside the bounds of what it means to be Māori, especially when religion has become entwined with their cultural reawakening. So yes, you can feel like a minority within a minority sometimes, but it is more subtle here—less hostile, I would say.
Jacobsen: That distinction makes sense. In the UK context, to support ex-Muslims publicly is sometimes misread as being anti-Muslim, which complicates everything. Identity politics can overshadow human rights issues.
Hiko-Tahuri: When cultural identity and religion are closely tied, questioning one can feel like attacking the other—even if that is not the intention.
Jacobsen: And you find yourself in this strange dichotomy—it is just a category error. You can support both Indigenous identity and secular values without negating either. It is just a mistake in framing. Do you experience that kind of tension in New Zealand as a Māori person? Or, more specifically, as a Māori atheist?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes, definitely—as a Māori atheist, I do. I have had conversations with a few others who are both Māori and atheist, and we often feel like a minority within a minority. It is a unique position to be in. Interestingly, though, statistically, about 53% of Māori now report no religious affiliation.
Jacobsen: There you go.
Hiko-Tahuri: Most people would still describe themselves as “spiritual but not religious.” Maybe only 10% would openly identify as atheists. So, it is still a tiny group to which I belong.
Jacobsen: Right.
Hiko-Tahuri: That leads back nicely to the idea of “coming out” as both Māori and atheist. I remember that journey. I had been reading all the usual books—The God Delusion by Richard Dawkins, God Is Not Great by Christopher Hitchens, and so on.
I struggled with the language in some of those books because they used words I had never encountered before. As the whole topic was so new, I had to sit with a dictionary beside me while reading.
Eventually, I reached a point where I realized, “I don’t believe in this anymore.” Then, the more complex question came: “What do I do about it?” And more importantly, “Can I even tell anyone?”
While I was at university, I met a few other Māori who had started to question Christianity, too. By understanding the colonization of Aotearoa, they began to see that Christianity was imposed here—brought in by missionaries from overseas. It was not ours originally. So some of us thought, “Why should we continue believing something that was forced upon us?”
That was my thinking for a while. But then I had another realization: I had rejected Christianity using a rational lens, but I had never applied that same critical lens to traditional Māori beliefs—the atua, the creation stories, the pantheon of gods.
So I did. When I examined those beliefs through the same standards, I had to admit—they did not add up either.
That is when I had the next big moment: “I don’t believe this either. So… now what? And how am I going to tell people?”
For a long time, I did not. At first, I equated being an atheist with simply not being Christian—since Christianity is still the dominant religious framework in New Zealand.
But it took years to fully embrace the term atheist in the broader sense—to reach the point where I could say, “I do not believe in any supernatural being that controls the world or defines our purpose.”
Eventually—probably after reading The God Delusion for the third time—I thought, “I can’t be the only one.”
Hiko-Tahuri: I remember thinking, “I can’t be the only Māori going through this.” So I started searching for books or articles written by Māori people about being both Māori and atheist. And I found absolutely nothing. There was no one—no one who had written publicly about being Māori and atheist.
Jacobsen: In your experience, had you at least come across others in real life—even if they had not formally written anything?
Hiko-Tahuri: I had met people who had loudly and proudly rejected Christianity and returned to belief in the traditional Māori gods—the atua. But I do not think I had ever met another openly Māori atheist—except for one woman I found on YouTube.
Her name was Nairi McCarthy. She was involved with the New Zealand Association of Rationalists and Humanists.
Jacobsen: Oh yes, yes—I know of her.
Hiko-Tahuri: You could have spoken with her a few years ago. Sadly, she passed away five or six years ago now.
She was the only one I had ever seen publicly acknowledge being Māori and atheist. And I thought, “Damn it. If I’m the only one with some writing skills and talk for a living, maybe I need to write this book.”
Jacobsen: Right.
Hiko-Tahuri: That is what led me to write it. I thought, “I know for certain I cannot be the only person who has come to this conclusion.”
So I turned to my community for support—and found nothing—no books, no articles. I thought, “Well, maybe I have to be the first. I’ll quietly write my story, upload it to the Internet, and maybe someone will find it.”
And that is precisely what I did.
Jacobsen: Was it terrifying?
Hiko-Tahuri: Oh yes—completely. I still remember the day I hit Publish. I put it on Smashwords. And I had no one to turn to—no reference point for what kind of response it might get.
But what I wanted was to leave a record. I’ve been to Māori funerals where they lied about the beliefs of the deceased—saying they were believers, that they loved God, when I knew for a fact they didn’t.
I didn’t want anyone to lie about me to my kids after I was gone. I needed something that told the truth about who I was. So I wrote the book.
It wasn’t to convince anyone. It was just my story—something people could find and know was real.
Jacobsen: How long did it take to write?
Hiko-Tahuri: About a year and a half. It’s a short book, but it took me that long to work through it.
Jacobsen: And the word count?
Hiko-Tahuri: Around sixteen or seventeen thousand words.
Jacobsen: So, roughly a thousand words a month?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes—about that. I took my time with it.
Jacobsen: That must have been a difficult thing to do. We should get into that part because if someone stumbles across this ten years from now, it could be helpful to them.
What was the tension you felt when you realized, “Oh, shit—I don’t believe any of this anymore”?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yeah. I love my community. I love my people. I love our ceremonies. I love the familial nature of it all—the shared values, the collective spirit.
But I couldn’t believe that there were only seventy children of Rangi and Papa or that everything came from Te Kore—the void of nothingness. I couldn’t hold that belief anymore.
And that realization… it was jarring. “What do I do now?” It does suck. But I also knew I could not stay silent. I could not pretend I wasn’t having these thoughts or deny the conclusions I was reaching.
Jacobsen: That must have been a real internal conflict.
Hiko-Tahuri: It was—a deeply personal one. Part of me thought, “If you just keep quiet, you’ll be fine. You don’t have to believe—you can go your own way and avoid the conflict.”
That was tempting. It would have been easier. But I also knew that if someone asked me directly, I wouldn’t lie. I’d say, “No, I don’t believe in that.”
So, part of the thinking behind the book was: If I write this down, I won’t have to explain myself repeatedly. I can point people to it.
That felt honest. It meant I wasn’t lying or hiding anymore, either.
Jacobsen: After you published it, was the reaction proportional to the emotional weight you carried? Or was it mostly internal?
Hiko-Tahuri: Oh, it was all internal. The fear, the anxiety—it was mostly in my head.
Jacobsen: How common do you think that experience is? Do you think there’s a quiet wave of Māori atheists—or what I sometimes call “atheism-lite,” meaning agnostics—people who live by humanist principles but are afraid to come out and say they don’t believe in a deity?
People who think they’ll face judgment when, in fact, most people are too busy trying not to check Elon Musk or Donald Trump’s Twitter feed?
Hiko-Tahuri: [Laughs] Yes, right?
There’s a number of us out there. I wouldn’t call it a wave just yet, but there are certainly people wondering, “How do I tell my parents I don’t believe in God anymore?” That kind of question is very real. It’s hard to quantify, of course. But the reaction to the book was primarily positive. People were curious.
One of my cousins—his whole branch of the family is very religious—he reached out to me after reading it and said, “What? I’ve been thinking like that my whole life. I didn’t know that’s what it was called—being an atheist.”
Jacobsen: That is such a simple statement. But it carries so much emotional baggage for no good reason.
It’s fascinating. I’ve heard everything—from people being jailed or harassed for their beliefs to professional consequences to, on the other end of the spectrum, people gaining fame or recognition for speaking out—like the Daniel Dennetts and Sam Harrises of the world.
Hiko-Tahuri: So, I don’t avoid things. I go to gatherings because it’s about family first—and that’s always been my attitude. Family is family.
You put family above what individuals believe. That’s how my religious family treats me, too—my cousins and uncles. A good example: Seven of my closest cousins were wearing religious robes at a recent funeral, but we still talked and connected. The spiritual stuff was put aside because we’re family first.
I’m lucky that way. But it’s also a wider New Zealand attitude—family comes before anything else.
Jacobsen: In the North American Indigenous context, something that often happens is this: to reject the common beliefs—whether those are traditional spiritual systems or Christian indoctrination brought through colonization—is usually seen as rejecting Indigenous identity itself.
Because of colonization, many Indigenous people in Canada and the US identify as Christian. So, if you’re an Indigenous atheist, it’s often seen as adopting a “white” belief—or, I guess, more precisely, a white rejection of religion. Atheism is framed as a white thing.
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes, I’ve come across that sentiment here, too. I’ve had family members say similar things when I tell them I’m going to speak at an atheist group or do an interview like this. They’ll say something like, “Oh yes, that’s you, and your funny white friend,” or “That’s your weird white thing.”
Jacobsen: [Laughs] So there’s a little dig, but it’s not hostile?
Hiko-Tahuri: It’s more of a friendly poke than a grave insult. There’s no real malice behind it. It’s like a teasing jab, not a deep cut.
Jacobsen: And at least they’re not using racial slurs like you’d sometimes hear in North America—words like “cracker”thrown around with some edge to them.
Hiko-Tahuri: Right, it’s gentler here—more of a soft ribbing than anything else.
Jacobsen: I’ve heard similar things from North American Indigenous people. Atheism is often perceived as white, so any Indigenous person who identifies that way is viewed as having abandoned their roots—when really, they’re just thinking independently.
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes. That’s the dynamic. But honestly, I don’t care what other people think. I do me. I don’t have the energy to worry about other people’s opinions of me. If something comes up—and it rarely does—I’ll deal with it then. But in the meantime, I live my life.
Hiko-Tahuri: I won’t worry about what the rest of the Māori community thinks about me. I was even on Māori Television, here in Aotearoa, talking openly about being an atheist.
One of the more common comments I received afterwards was, “Oh, he needs to learn more about his culture.”
Jacobsen: This is a sophisticated way of saying, “He’s ignorant of our ways—therefore, he doesn’t accept our ways.” It’s a coded dismissal.
Hiko-Tahuri: Ironically, I practice more of our customs, speak more Te Reo, and participate more fully in the culture than many people making those comments.
Jacobsen: So, would you say that reaction is patronizing within the Māori community?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes. That’s precisely what it is.
Another interesting thing is how certain people are automatically respected in the Māori community based on appearance. For example, if you’re an older Māori man wearing a clerical collar—any religious collar, regardless of denomination—you’re automatically afforded the status of someone to be respected.
Jacobsen: For clarity, could that collar belong to a Christian denomination or another tradition?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes, it doesn’t matter what religion it is. If you wear the collar, you get that reverence. And I’ve met some of those men—they’re not particularly insightful or wise. I wouldn’t trust them to lead anything other than a church service. But because they hold that religious role, they’re treated with deference. So they’re seen as kaumātua—elders—because of the position, not because of actual wisdom or age.
You can be a 30-year-old wearing a collar and be treated like an elder. That’s one of my frustrations with how religion plays out in some Māori spaces.
Jacobsen: Would you distinguish here—again, using international terminology but applying it to a Māori-specific context—between indigeneity as culture and indigeneity as religion?
Because what I’ve come across in other interviews is a concept some call “Indigenous humanism.” It’s a framework where people continue participating in Indigenous practices—storytelling, ritual, community events—but without the supernatural belief component.
But on the flip side, I’ve also seen some Indigenous frameworks begin to mirror structured religions: hierarchy, sacred texts, holy oral traditions, and supernatural entities—almost resembling traditional Abrahamic models with “gods,” sacred teachings, powers, principalities, and so on.
Some Indigenous atheists and humanists I’ve spoken with are worried about this trend—a kind of religious revival forming around indigeneity itself. Their concern is that it could become dogmatic and undermine secular and Enlightenment-based thinking.
Hiko-Tahuri: I get what you’re saying. I haven’t seen that happening here, at least not in a widespread or formalized way. But part of that could be numbers. You’d need a critical mass of people adopting that framework for it to take shape.
It’s less about isolated belief and more about institutionalization. It doesn’t evolve into that kind of system if you don’t have the numbers, but I understand the concern. Once belief systems become formalized, there’s always the risk that they become exclusionary or dogmatic.
We do not have that many of us, so we have not even had the chance to break ourselves into different “types” of atheists. We have not even come together for a group chat to discuss our thoughts. So no, I have not seen anything like that fragmentation yet because we are such a tiny group in New Zealand.
There has not been enough critical mass within atheism to split into more specific beliefs or approaches.
Jacobsen: If your initial feeling after publishing the book was one of relief—and the reaction was much more subdued than anticipated—do you now see people entering the atheist or humanist space, especially Māori, with this almost irrational sense of fear, only to realize, “Oh… it’s fine. It’s not a big deal”?
Hiko-Tahuri: Honestly? No, we do not even really see that reaction. Because so few people talk about it publicly. When we gather, we have roles to fill. We are there to work—we have responsibilities. There is no time to sit and have long philosophical debates about belief.
Jacobsen: That sounds like a cultural distinction. Take something like the Catholic Church—they gather, sit, listen, and sing. It is contemplative. But you are describing something very different.
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes. For example, there is much to do if we’re at the marae. We have protocols, hospitality, food to prepare, cleaning, hosting—so much practical work. We do not pause to reflect or debate belief systems during those moments.
At most, you might hear someone say, “Oh yeah, that cousin over there’s a bit different—he doesn’t believe in God.” And that’s it. That’s probably as deep as it goes.
Jacobsen: So the culture itself, in those moments, emphasizes function and participation over theology.
Hiko-Tahuri: We are caught up in the activity of the occasion, not in philosophical contemplation about the universe’s origins.
Jacobsen: So—what was the general reaction to the book? Good, bad, ugly, neutral, controlling?
Hiko-Tahuri: [Laughs] Honestly? Most people I knew contacted me to say, “Why am I not in it?”
Most reactions were driven by self-interest—”little me” stuff. Many people who read the book were curious if they were in it. A lot of the feedback was, “Oh yeah, that’s just you being you.” I’ve always been considered a bit weird anyway.
Jacobsen: [Laughs] Familiar.
Hiko-Tahuri: Other than that, people would say things like, “I never thought about that,” or “I didn’t know you couldn’t believe in God.” Because belief is so deeply embedded in Māori identity from such a young age.
Jacobsen: Is it similar to beliefs around wairua—the spiritual essence or spirit?
Hiko-Tahuri: Very much so. Wairua—the spiritual dimension—permeates everything. It’s so ingrained that when someone steps outside of it or says, “I don’t believe in that,” it’s beyond what many people are prepared to consider. They ignore it. It’s too far outside the norm to process.
Jacobsen: Did the book catalyze others—within the community or the broader New Zealand public—to come forward or speak out?
Hiko-Tahuri: I don’t know. I don’t want to claim that other Māori atheists came out because of my book. I can’t say that for sure. But we have a Facebook group called Atua Kore, which means “godless.” It has about 500 members now.
Jacobsen: That’s a solid number.
Hiko-Tahuri: It is. And yes, we’ve had a few people post in that group announcing that they’re atheists—that they’d made the decision, and it was huge for them. That happened after the book came out, but I won’t say it was because of it. I don’t know.
Jacobsen: Are there any prominent atheist or humanist figures in New Zealand generally—Māori or otherwise?
Hiko-Tahuri: No real high-profile names come to mind. One of the cultural dynamics in New Zealand is what we call “tall poppy syndrome”—we tend to cut down the people who stick out. So, self-promotion is frowned upon here. You don’t boast; you don’t elevate yourself. You keep your head down.
Jacobsen: Honestly, North America could use a little more of that.
Hiko-Tahuri: [Laughs] Maybe! But because of that, unless you’re already in the community, you’ve probably never heard of any of our local atheists or humanists.
Jacobsen: Are there any other books, aside from yours, by Māori atheists?
Hiko-Tahuri: Not yet.
Jacobsen: That’s wild. Okay, let me put this on the record: open offer. If we can gather around 100,000 words’ worth of conversations with Māori atheists, agnostics, or humanists—fully inclusive—I’ll help compile it. You can tell me your life story, “coming out,” and reflections. No pressure.
Hiko-Tahuri: That sounds good.
Jacobsen: It’s an ironic “coming-to-Jesus” phrase. [Laughs] But really, the point would be to normalize it. To show that being a Māori atheist isn’t a big deal—it’s just one way of being. That #NormalizeAtheism message. You’ve got 500 members in the Whakapono Kore group. Surely, some would be up for it.
Hiko-Tahuri: Maybe. But I don’t know how many would want to go public. That’s always the challenge. Out of those 500 members in the Atua Kore group, I know about four people willing to speak publicly.
Jacobsen: So basically, the secretary, vice president, president, and treasurer?
Hiko-Tahuri: [Laughs] Pretty much—except we’re not that organized. It’s not even my group; someone else started it. I’m just a member like everyone else.
Jacobsen: What is the Taranaki Maunga?
Hiko-Tahuri: Oh yes, I am granting personhood to the mountain. That’s an environmental protection mechanism more than a spiritual or belief-based one. It’s a legal framework designed to safeguard the mountain.
Jacobsen: The international community has increasingly formalized support for Indigenous peoples through declarations, conventions, and covenants. Some of the most notable include:
- The United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (UNDRIP) was adopted in 2007.
- International Labour Organization Convention No. 169 concerning Indigenous and Tribal Peoples in Independent Countries (1989).
- The International Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Racial Discrimination (1965) includes Indigenous peoples under legal definitions of racial protection.
These instruments serve as essential frameworks for recognizing Indigenous communities’ cultural, environmental, political, and spiritual rights.
Additional international instruments support Indigenous rights, which are not often discussed but are incredibly important.
- The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights (1966) — Article 1 affirms the right to self-determination for all peoples, including Indigenous communities.
- The International Covenant on Economic, Social and Cultural Rights (also 1966) contains articles addressing equality, cultural rights, and the right to participate in social and economic development, which directly apply to Indigenous peoples.
- The Convention on the Rights of the Child (1989) — Article 30 affirms the right of Indigenous children to enjoy their culture, religion, and language.
- The Convention on the Elimination of All Forms of Discrimination Against Women (CEDAW) — General Recommendation 39 specifically addresses Indigenous women and girls.
- The Declaration on the Rights of Persons Belonging to National or Ethnic, Religious, and Linguistic Minorities (1992) — Affirms collective minority rights, including Indigenous identities.
And there are several region-specific instruments:
- The African Charter on Human and Peoples’ Rights (Banjul Charter, 1981) — Article 22 recognizes the right to development, including for Indigenous peoples.
- The American Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (ADRIP, 2016) — Establishes principles for self-identification, cultural preservation, and public participation.
- UNESCO’s Convention for the Safeguarding of the Intangible Cultural Heritage (2003) — Recognizes and protects the cultural expressions of Indigenous communities.
- The Convention on Biological Diversity (1992), Article 8(j), mandates respecting and preserving Indigenous knowledge, innovations, and practices related to conservation and sustainable biodiversity.
So, this is not “nothing.” There’s a body of international law supporting Indigenous rights. Of course, the tension always lies between what is declared and what is implemented. That’s where the evidence and accountability need to come in.
From your perspective—within the Māori context—do you see any of these declarations, covenants, or charters shaping Māori–New Zealand relations?
Hiko-Tahuri: To be completely honest, I’ve only ever heard of the UN Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples (UNDRIP). That’s the only one that ever comes up in public conversation or news here. All the others? I haven’t heard of them.
Jacobsen: That’s insightful. If we take secular humanism as a life stance grounded in an empirical moral philosophythat adapts its ethics based on new evidence, do you think Māori secular humanists could lead in implementing or advocating for some of these international declarations?
Hiko-Tahuri: I would like to say yes—but I worry. Like I said before, in our Māori communities, the people who wear collars—the religious leaders—get the leadership roles. People like me, who don’t wear a collar, are less likely to be listened to.
So, Indigenous secular humanists—are not currently in a position of influence when it comes to policy or leadership. And that’s something I think about a lot.
Jacobsen: That’s a critical and complex conversation. It reminds me of my last in-depth interview with David Cook, Maheengun, who has an Anishinaabe background in Canada. He identified as a traditional knowledge keeper—but importantly, was a knowledge keeper. There’s nuance in how Indigenous knowledge and leadership structures function and interact with humanist and secular frameworks. In the North American Indigenous context, the term for that is that you do not have a collar, but you might be a pipe carrier.
Maheengun gave up his status as a pipe carrier because, for him, there was too much dissonance between his humanist, atheist worldview and the expectations that came with that ceremonial role.
That gets into something I do not think anyone’s explored yet: if someone adopts atheism and secular humanism seriously and then steps away from a role like a pipe carrier or traditional knowledge keeper, how does that affect their voice—not just within the community but in broader systems like government-to-government or what is often termed “nation-to-nation” relations in Canada?
Because if someone lacks ceremonial or spiritual status, they often have no formal recognition—and no seat at the table. So, the representatives federal governments see in these discussions tend to be those with supernatural frameworks. That becomes the perceived Indigenous worldview, even though, as we know, many Indigenous people do not subscribe to that at all.
And the same is true for Māori. Significant portions of the population—like in the 634 recognized First Nations bands in Canada—either reject or question those beliefs. Even if, as in your case, they still participate culturally. Yet they are still not always seen as “real Māori” by some.
Where could that conversation go? What questions should we be asking?
Hiko-Tahuri: I’ve been thinking about this one for a long time—and honestly, I still don’t know.
In New Zealand, the government recognizes several iwi—tribal groups—as official representatives. So, if the government wants to consult with Māori, it will go to those groups and their hierarchies. The structure is established and formalized.
But here’s the thing: because those bodies represent the majority, people like me—those without a spiritual or ceremonial role—do not get much say.
That said, I’ve been fortunate. I have working relationships with some of the local tribal leaders. I’ve worked within their organizations, so I know at least they’re getting one different voice in the room—mine. I can say, “Hey, this is something you must consider.”
But that’s not a system-wide thing. It’s very personal. And yes, it isn’t easy to imagine how to scale that and how to make it more inclusive.
These representatives often claim to speak for all of us. But do they? We don’t know.
Jacobsen: That’s a tension in democratic governance, too. No political party or leader truly represents everyone. They represent the most significant percentage of voters in a particular cycle. So even there, you get a majority-of-plurality scenario, not true consensus.
It’s the same dynamic. When a Māori elder with a collar and status comes forward and tells the New Zealand government, “This is what we want as a community,” it’s assumed that their voice is the voice of all Māori.
But that’s not the case.
Hiko-Tahuri: There’s a presumption that doesn’t map cleanly onto European governance models. But most of our iwi—tribal groups—that the government interacts with are democratically elected. It’s not always a traditional hereditary hierarchy. Leaders are often voted in.
Jacobsen: Interesting. So there’s a mix of democratic process and cultural leadership?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes, and I wouldn’t say all of those leaders are particularly religious either. Many use religious language or rituals to connect with the people they serve. It’s less about being deeply spiritual and more about resonating with the majority—many of whom are.
Jacobsen: That ties into self-stereotyping and external stereotyping. It becomes a kind of feel-good activism—what I sometimes call “parade activism” instead of “hard-work activism.”
For example, I attended a session at the 69th Commission on the Status of Women—Canada’s Indigenous. There was an Indigenous panel, and a few participants represented Indigenous communities beyond Canada’s borders.
Some arrived in full traditional dress—massive ceremonial headgear and all. Now, that visual shorthand becomes what government officials expect to see. It creates a kind of caricature—but it also becomes self-reinforcing.
That person becomes the “abstract ideal” of what a proper Indigenous representative should look like, and the government becomes the “abstract system” responding to that image. Both sides feel good about the exchange, but it risks becoming performative. It’s not always representative of the range of Indigenous experiences—especially secular ones.
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes,.
Jacobsen: So it becomes this cycle: “We brought the right Māori to the table,” and “I presented the right version of Māori identity.” Everyone walks away satisfied—but it also acts as a brake. You’re pushing the gas and the brake at the same time.
Right—and then when someone like me comes forward, without the collar or ceremonial role, they’re seen as the outlier. Like the cranky guy on the porch yelling at the sky. The Garfield of the meeting, if you will. [Laughs]
No one wants that person. They’re not the story anyone wants to hear.
Hiko-Tahuri: That reminds me of something recent. The New Zealand Psychological Society referenced my book.
Until now, the society’s approach was based on a framework developed by a respected Māori elder—someone known in cultural and philosophical spaces. He proposed a four-sided model of well-beingwellbeing, likened to a house. It’s used widely in Māori mental health services.
The four sides are physical, family, spiritual, and—something else. But the point is: if you’re working with Māori clients, the model says you must consider all four, including the spiritual.
So, twenty years ago, I went to see a therapist. They used this exact model. We sat down, and they said, “We need to begin with a karakia—a prayer.”
I said, “I’m not religious. I don’t want to pray.”
But their training told them they had to do it. So, I was forced to sit through a religious ritual I didn’t believe in to access mental health care. And worse, I was pressured to participate in that prayer myself.
That’s a significant example. It shows how models meant to be inclusive can become exclusionary—especially for Māori who are secular.
Jacobsen: That’s like people being forced to go to AA.
Hiko-Tahuri: I presented to a group of psychologists about a year ago. One of the prominent members—someone involved in the humanist movement here—submitted a formal statement to the New Zealand College of Clinical Psychologists.
He said, “Look, this is a perspective you haven’t considered.” That spiritual requirement—where practitioners were required to begin with a prayer—was challenged. As a result, recommendations have now been made to adjust those protocols to include people who do not believe. That’s one positive change I can point to that came out of it.
Jacobsen: Is the traditional Māori dance called the haka?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes, the haka.
Jacobsen: That seems like one of the more benign aspects of cultural tradition, even for someone transitioning ideologically. I don’t see how a dance would be impacted by whether someone is spiritual.
Hiko-Tahuri: No—not at all. The haka isn’t inherently religious. It’s a form of emotional and communal expression. While its origins include warrior preparation, it’s evolved far beyond that.
There are haka for celebrations, mourning, farewells, and graduations. At university ceremonies, if someone Māori walks across the stage, people from their whānau will often leap up from the crowd and perform a haka in celebration. It’s done everywhere, for all kinds of moments.
It’s how we express collective feelings—joy, grief, pride, and love.
Jacobsen: So, when you begin mapping the geography of Māori secularism—as a relatively new concept—are there any aspects of traditional Māori governance that could be considered appropriately secular? That is, are there spaces where ritual or spiritual practices are distinctly set apart or is everything more or less integrated?
Hiko-Tahuri: So, in most traditional Māori contexts, everything tends to be intertwined—spiritual, social, political, and cultural dimensions are not separated in the Western sense. In that way, Māori culture is similar to many traditional religious cultures, where secularism, as we understand it in liberal democracies, was never really a category.
Jacobsen: Now, tapu—the concept of sacredness or restriction in Māori culture—retains significant cultural power. But from a secular Māori perspective, like yours, tapu can be understood metaphorically rather than metaphysically. It functions symbolically to mark respect, boundaries, or social norms rather than indicating belief in the supernatural. What does that mean in practical terms?
Hiko-Tahuri: Take karakia, for example—these are often translated as prayers or incantations. I don’t perform them myself. But in spaces where karakia are expected—such as ceremonial openings or public gatherings—I’ve written secular alternatives, essentially nonreligious invocations. I cannot authentically engage in the religious or supernatural aspects, but I can offer something meaningful and culturally respectful that fits the moment. That’s how I bridge the gap: by replacing the supernatural element with a secular expression that still honours the cultural context.
Jacobsen: This reminds me of the situation in Canada. Canada is a federal state divided into municipalities, provinces, and territories, and then the national government, which is functionally similar to the U.S. structure of counties, states, and federal governance. In 2015, the Supreme Court of Canada ruled in Mouvement laïque québécois v. Saguenay (City) that opening municipal council meetings with prayer violated the state’s duty of religious neutrality. It effectively made official prayers at government meetings unconstitutional.
Following that decision, organizations like the British Columbia Humanist Association began investigating compliance across municipalities. Despite the ruling, they found that many local governments continued to include prayer in official meetings. In response, the Association sent letters to these municipalities pointing out the legal ruling, sharing data, and urging them to comply with the law by removing religious observances from public sessions. This kind of advocacy led to meaningful change in some regions.
So, when I consider your experience, I think of it in that light. You’re not opposing cultural participation or public service; instead, you’re drawing a line where religious practices—like prayer—are included in civic spaces where they may no longer be appropriate, especially in pluralistic or post-colonial contexts. Countries like Aotearoa, New Zealand, Australia, Canada, the United States, and South Africa all fall under the category of “post-colonial” states grappling with how to reconcile Indigenous traditions, secular governance, and religious pluralism.
So, let us return to the historical backdrop. Christian missionary efforts, correct, primarily drove colonization in Aotearoa, New Zealand. I understand that many of those involved were of European heritage—like my own. When people refer to “post-colonial” in this context, they often mean a phase following that religious and political imposition—perhaps even envisioning a society in a reconciled, pluralistic state where Indigenous and settler cultures have negotiated a new equilibrium. Would you say that is accurate?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes, that is broadly correct. Among post-colonial nations, I would say Aotearoa, New Zealand, has gone further than many in terms of acknowledging and integrating Māori language, culture, and perspectives into public life. You can see the effects of that on things like the census data. As of the most recent census, about 53% of New Zealanders identified as having no religion. That makes New Zealand a post-Christian country, at least in terms of demographic majority. Christianity is now a minority belief, which shifts the dynamics.
Jacobsen: And how does that shift affect your everyday life, particularly as someone who identifies as an atheist and a humanist? Does it allow you to live more comfortably and authentically?
Hiko-Tahuri: Absolutely. As I mentioned earlier, overt religiosity is a bit unusual here. People who are very religious are more of a minority now—and may be looked at as slightly outside the norm. The country itself is pretty secular. Yes, we still have prayers at the beginning of some public meetings, but those are more about tradition than belief in most cases. There are calls to remove such practices, and I support that. However, overall, New Zealand has a very relaxed and liberal society. People do not care what others believe or do not believe. There is a strong cultural inclination toward individual freedom and tolerance, so we rarely see heated debates or conflicts over religion here.
Jacobsen: Tell me more about your podcast, Heretical. Is it still running, and where can people find it?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes, it is back. I originally launched it some time ago but had to pause due to other commitments. I have now restarted it. The first season includes 10 episodes, where I read my book chapter by chapter. The book is free—I never wrote it to make money; I wrote it to tell a story. That story forms the basis of the podcast. I have also added another episode where I talk about a strange encounter I had with what I would describe as a cult-like group who tried to recruit me. That experience was eye-opening and worth sharing. There will be more episodes in the future. I plan to delve into some of the more common arguments for theism—things like the cosmological argument—and explore why I do not find them convincing. These kinds of discussions are not often had within our community, so I think it is essential to create space for them.
Jacobsen: What about your music and your airbrush art? Do elements of secularism or humanism show up in those creative outlets?
Hiko-Tahuri: Not so much in my music, no. It is more of a personal expression, and I keep it separate from my secular identity. But everything I create reflects my worldview in some way, even if not explicitly.
I have been playing in the same band with friends for about 25 years now. We only get together to play once every five years or so these days, but we are just a bunch of old mates who enjoy making music together. I played my first gig when I was 14 years old for a country music club here in New Zealand. I got pulled into country music because there really were not many other musical options in the small town I grew up in.
Music has always been part of my life, but I have never chased fame or done it for recognition. I do it because I love it. The same goes for painting. I have created a few pieces where I’ve expressed thoughts on some of the more absurd or troubling beliefs in the Bible. For example, there is that passage—1 Timothy 2:12, I think—that says women should remain silent and not teach. I did a painting responding to that. I also painted a Celtic cross overlaid with Māori designs to symbolize how religion, especially Christianity, colonized us just as much as the English did. I have sold or given away some of those pieces, but really, art is something I do for personal fulfillment rather than profit.
Jacobsen: How do emerging networks like Māori atheist and freethinker communities offer space for collective doubt or help individuals express personal doubts within a shared context?
Hiko-Tahuri: That is a good question. I do not know if that is even the aim of the group I joined. It is not my group—I just found it and joined. For me, it was more about discovering that there were other people out there who think like me and also look like me. That alone was meaningful. We have not tried to turn it into a collective movement. Māori atheism is still in its infancy. Until I wrote my book, I had not encountered any serious discussion about it, at least not that I could find. That group did exist beforehand, but I stumbled upon it afterward.
So, right now, most of the Māori atheists I see are solo actors. We speak up when we feel like it, but there is no organized collective activism or shared identity. We are in such an early stage of development as a community that it has not yet coalesced into anything more structured or strategic.
Jacobsen: Since we last spoke, have you had any recent thoughts on the protocols and principles of Indigenous declarations?
Hiko-Tahuri: No, I have not looked into it lately. I know that the New Zealand government initially chose not to sign the United Nations Declaration on the Rights of Indigenous Peoples, though it eventually endorsed it in 2010. But beyond that, I have not followed recent developments very closely.
Jacobsen: I have not had a chance to read into some of those areas, but I would like to. What about the precise etiquette and civic customs—honouring those customs that come from the subculture while not reciting the prayers? What is the balance being struck there?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yeah, I think that is one of the most challenging parts—figuring out what you can do respectfully while maintaining personal integrity. If we are talking, for instance, about pōwhiri—that is, the formal welcome ceremony—part of that involves speech-making. And during those speeches, spiritual language is often invoked. It is hard to categorize it strictly as religious, but it carries spiritual overtones.
Navigating is a challenge because there is a specific formula for constructing those speeches within our culture. They follow a traditional structure that includes spiritual references—things I do not believe in. So, I often have to rework those parts, recreating the tone and form without the religious or supernatural elements. It is difficult and takes much careful thought. That is probably the main struggle for Māori atheists who speak the language and actively participate in cultural life. We are trying to maintain the integrity of our heritage while adapting it to a secular worldview.
Jacobsen: Have you ever had an experience—either due to your ethnic background or lack of belief—where someone got confrontational with you? The proverbial finger-wagging, shouting match? I cannot imagine that happening much to a Kiwi.
Hiko-Tahuri: No, we are generally not that confrontational in New Zealand. And there are a couple of practical reasons, too. Because of how I look—my physical presence—people usually do not get up in my face. I am around six feet tall, and I guess I have a face that might be intimidating. So, people do not tend to push those boundaries. I am not aggressive or threatening at all, but sometimes, just my appearance is enough to make people think twice.
Jacobsen: That reminds me—there was a story out of the U.S. involving Eminem. I think gang members were extorting him—either the Crips or the Bloods. But apparently, there was a Samoan-American gang so feared that even the Crips were hesitant around them. Eminem hired them for protection, and they ended up defending him and collaborating on music. I believe they even put out an album together.
It was a pretty wild story. It shows how much physical presence and group identity can shape interactions—whether in music, culture, or personal safety. It is funny how those dynamics play out in so many different places.
Hiko-Tahuri: It can be imposing. I am five-eleven, but I am not baby-faced. Still, I have heard of incidents chwhere Māori women in New Zealand—especially those who wear moko kauae, the traditionalin tattoo—get hassled often.
Jacobsen:How so?
Hiko-Tahuri: By members of the public, saying things like, “You shouldn’t be here,” or “You look intimidating,” or “You shouldn’t be in this park.” One of these incidents happened just last year in a local park. A woman was told she could not be there when someone’s kids were around, as if she was somehow threatening—just for wearing the moko kauae. These things do happen, particularly to women. I have noticed that it never happens to me. Maybe that has something to do with physical presence or perceived threat, but yes—it is a pattern.
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes, that does happen, and fairly often. I am out of the question for that hassle, too, for similar reasons.
Jacobsen: So, am I missing anything? What do you think?
Hiko-Tahuri: I do not think so. I cannot think of anything else at the moment. That was a solid session.
Jacobsen: Thank you so much for today.
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes, that sounds great. Thank you very much.
Jacobsen: All right. Take care.
Hiko-Tahuri: You too. Bye.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/08/13
Author Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this article are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization, institution, or entity with which the author may be affiliated, including Humanists International.
Ronald A. Lindsay, a philosopher, lawyer, and former CEO of the Center for Inquiry, discusses secularism, religious influence on law, and the Ten Commandments’ role in American history. He argues that morality predates religious doctrines, citing historical legal codes like the Code of Hammurabi. Lindsay critiques Christian nationalist claims, noting that American law is fundamentally secular. He highlights that religious, moral frameworks often project human values onto deities. Addressing objections, he refutes the idea that atheism undermines morality, emphasizing cooperation and social trust as its foundation. He warns against individuals using religious justification to override secular law.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Ronald A. Lindsay. He is a philosopher, lawyer, and author who has worked extensively in secularism and the critical analysis of religious claims. That sounds like an interesting job. He served as the president and CEO of the Center for Inquiry from 2008 to 2016 and has been a vocal advocate for reason, science, and free inquiry. As a senior research fellow at Free Inquiry, Lindsay critiques claims about religion’s role in law and society.
His books include The Necessity of Secularism: Why God Can’t Tell Us What to Do and Against the New Politics of Identity: A Critique of the Contemporary Social Justice Movement. He frequently writes on secular ethics, legal philosophy, and the misrepresentation of religious influence in government. Is all of that correct?
Lindsay: I’m particularly proud of The Necessity of Secularism, published in 2014. I like it because it has sold better than any of my other books. I still receive royalties from it. It’s not a large check, but it’s enough to pay for a few cocktails each year, which is nice.
Jacobsen: Well, since you mentioned “royalty,” as a Canadian, I suppose I should happily acknowledge that term, given our constitutional monarchy. Now, let’s talk about the Ten Commandments. You may have heard of them.
How are people justifying the claim that the Ten Commandments are foundational to American law? A side note: American demographics have followed the trajectory of most advanced industrial economies, although the United States is an outlier due to its slow decline in religious adherence. However, Christian practice and affiliation in the U.S. have dropped significantly in recent years.
Lindsay: Yes. This myth, a misunderstanding, has likely been around for a long time. However, it has taken on special significance in the last several decades—particularly since the 1960s—when the Supreme Court clarified that the First Amendment should be interpreted strictly and that public schools should remain secular.
The Court ruled against school-led prayer and Bible readings, and many Americans have never fully accepted those rulings.
For decades, efforts have been made to reinstate prayer or incorporate religious teachings back into schools. One strategy has been placing posters of the Ten Commandments in classrooms. This effort has been ongoing for years. In Stone v. Graham (1980), the Supreme Court ruled in a 5-4 decision that a Kentucky law requiring the posting of the Ten Commandments in public school classrooms was unconstitutional.
However, in recent years, the movement has gained momentum again. Louisiana recently passed a law requiring that the Ten Commandments be posted in all public school classrooms. Texas, Oklahoma, and other states are considering similar legislation.
Louisiana’s law is currently being challenged in Court, as it violates Supreme Court precedent. However, its supporters hope that the current Supreme Court, which has taken a more favourable stance toward religious expression in public life, will uphold the law.
Proponents of these measures recognize that previous Supreme Court rulings have struck down overtly religious mandates in public schools. As a result, they have attempted to frame their justification in secular terms. Their argument is, “No, we’re not trying to impose religion on children; we’re just acknowledging the historical influence of the Ten Commandments on American law.”
“No, we don’t care whether they believe in God or not—it has nothing to do with that or whether they’re Christian. But this is part of our national heritage because the Ten Commandments provide the foundation for American law.” And unfortunately, this is a misstatement, fabrication, lie—however you want to characterize it. It’s false.
It’s a falsehood that has been echoed by the House of Representatives, which has passed resolutions endorsing it. Various Supreme Court justices have echoed it. So it has, in some eyes, some currency and legitimacy, which inspired me to write the article I did for Free Inquiry. In it, I set forth, in fairly clear terms, the reasons why that claim is not true.
The Ten Commandments are in no way the foundation for American law.
Jacobsen: Now, the foundational principle appears to be the notion that God is good, that any goodness in morality or ethics comes from some transcendent or divine access point. Why is that wrong, particularly when applied to murder, theft, and perjury?
Lindsay: Yes, well, why it’s wrong, especially in the context of the Ten Commandments—I think some people have this naive idea, certainly if you take the idea that the Ten Commandments are foundational for law, that somehow before Moses came down from Mount Sinai—which is a legend anyway, but we won’t get into that—there was moral anarchy, that there was lawlessness among all people before that, which is not the case.
Human society could not have survived if there were no basic moral principles—whether intuitive, outlined in writing, or what have you—that governed interactions among people, right? You have to be able to, among other things, refrain from knocking the brains out of someone next to you, taking their property, or materially engaging in deceit.
So, laws prohibiting violence, especially murder, laws prohibiting theft, and laws prohibiting material deceit, including perjury, have existed in societies long before Moses, ancient Judea, or what have you.
The Code of Hammurabi, for example—dating to around 1700 BCE, depending on your chronology for Moses, which places him five, six, or seven hundred years later—contains detailed laws. And again, these laws prohibit what laws normally prohibit: just what we discussed—maiming, killing, theft, lying under oath, and things of that sort.
So, the core principles many people identify as fundamental to the Ten Commandments existed long before the Ten Commandments. And again, if you take a moment to reflect on it, clearly any human society—a society where people actually lived together and cooperated—would have to establish principles like these to function. It’s just basic.
So, right away, you’ve removed at least three of the Ten Commandments, depending on how you count them—and that’s a whole other issue since there is no uniform version of the Ten Commandments. But you’ve removed what many people would regard as their core elements.
Jacobsen: So, with the Code of Hammurabi, you could think of the Ten Commandments as a software update to those laws. But that software update is over 2,000 years old. So why are we trying to impose laws from more than two millennia ago on contemporary society—especially when international institutions like the United Nations base their codes on universalist ethics like human rights?
Lindsay: Well, that’s a good question. Again, I think this is a reaction to many people’s sense—that the values they once held are losing their footing. That understandably causes some anxiety and distress.
One way to relieve that distress is to try to impose those values—fundamentalist Christian values—on others and claim that this is the way it should be. This is the basis for morality and law.
That’s not a good argument. Still, psychologically, you can see why people might be motivated to take that stance. But there’s something else worth mentioning. We talked about murder, perjury, and theft.
Looking at the rest of the Ten Commandments, it becomes even clearer why they can’t be the foundation of American law. Several of them have never influenced American law—or, to my knowledge, any other legal system.
Take coveting your neighbour’s possessions. Well, that’s the basis for capitalism. Consumerism is fueled by coveting what your neighbour Joe or Mildred has.
Coveting your neighbour’s wife? Yes, it’s frowned upon, but it’s a thought crime—having a desire for someone else. That has never been the subject of law.
Honouring one’s parents? That may be a moral injunction—yes, we should be kind to our parents—but it’s never been a legal principle. And finally, the First Commandment—Thou shalt have no other gods before me. Certainly, in terms of American law, that has never been enforced.
There were established churches in some of the colonies, and even after independence, some states maintained established churches for a few years. But there was never a prohibition on worshiping outside the established church.
So, the idea that American law was built on a uniform religious belief is simply false. By this point, we’ve covered at least six or seven of the Ten Commandments, depending on how you count them. They’ve had no effect—let alone a foundational effect—on American law.
Jacobsen: Even if we grant their premise—which we’ve been analyzing already—that the Ten Commandments are well-grounded and should be imposed, what about the fundamental premise of the Bible itself? The claim that the Bible is true and that the Ten Commandments are justified as a moral document.
Lindsay: Well, if you accept that argument, you must accept that the Bible is true—and that’s ultimately a question of faith.
Of course, this leads to a whole host of swirling theological debates about how to interpret the Bible. As everyone knows, there are dozens—if not hundreds—of Protestant denominations.
The Catholic Church is much less unified than it once was. You have the Eastern Orthodox Church and then, of course, Judaism, which accepts significant portions of the Bible but interprets them differently.
So, which interpretation is correct? That becomes a whole separate issue. And finally, we arrive at the fundamental philosophical question: Is something moral because God says it is?
Or does God declare something moral because it is inherently moral? This is the dilemma Plato posed long ago—the Euthyphro dilemma.
If you take the first position—that something is moral simply because God says so—you run into the problem of differing interpretations of what God has said, right? And why is it the God of the Bible as opposed to the God of the Quran or the deities of Hindu scriptures?
So, ultimately, trying to base morality on God does not provide a stable foundation—certainly not one that is beyond question. When you dig deeper, you see that what we really believe is based on our moral intuitions.
If you discuss with someone which God is the “true” God, the argument quickly shifts. Someone might say, “Well, God wouldn’t approve of that.” Or “God wouldn’t approve of what Muslims believe.” Or, “God wouldn’t approve of what Catholics do.”
But those arguments aren’t based on divine authority but on human moral reasoning. So, ultimately, people decide what God says based on their own moral intuitions. This shows that the basis for morality is our moral framework, which we then project onto the deity.
We assume that because we see something as moral, God must approve of it. Once we believe this, we feel like we have divine approval, which gives our beliefs an illusion of legitimacy. But in reality, we’re projecting our moral sensibilities onto an imagined authority figure that we think grants us a veneer of respectability. And it doesn’t.
Jacobsen: In the United States, the Christian population is a little shy of two-thirds. However, many Christians do not identify as Christian nationalists—either explicitly by name or implicitly through their beliefs.
So how are those Christians—and others like yourself and myself, who are non-religious—perceiving this Christian nationalist movement? It’s not just about putting up giant Ten Commandments tablets at state courthouses or legislatures—where, inevitably, a Satanist group will demand to place a Baphomet statue beside them.
It’s about Christian nationalism being used to shape governance across nearly every major institution in the United States. It’s not just symbolic; it’s an attempt to enforce religious principles pervasively, even over non-religious people and Christians who disagree with that vision.
Lindsay: Yeah, well, to put it mildly, there will be some resistance.
Right now, the United States is in a volatile political moment. There are so many fast-moving efforts to reshape policy across multiple areas, particularly under the Trump administration at this time. People who oppose these moves are still figuring out the right strategy for resisting them.
But at the end of the day, both secular people and—lacking a better term—progressive or liberal Christians will likely find common cause in pushing back against the more extreme efforts to impose religious beliefs on society.
This is not just about schools—it’s about the broader attempt to influence laws and governance in general. That resistance will happen. How successful it will be remains to be seen. The unfortunate reality is that Trump has had a very compliant Congress.
He has demonstrated this by confirming his cabinet nominees, even when some were unqualified by any objective standard.
Jacobsen: I thought it was a meritocracy!
Lindsay: That’s it. Well, that’s the irony. The whole push against DEI—I want to be fair. I think some Democrats, in some ways, pushed DEI in a way that was counterproductive. Some of the interpretations that were made…
Jacobsen: Identity politics 2.0.
Lindsay: Right. And so they opened the door for this reaction. Of course, Trump isn’t using a scalpel to reform how DEI was being applied—he’s using a bludgeon and just eliminating it. But then the whole premise behind that is, “We need to go back to strictly relying on merit.”
Obviously, “merit” for him means subservience to him because otherwise, there’s no way to rationalize the selection of Tulsi Gabbard as the Director of National Intelligence. Robert F. Kennedy Jr., a person who knows nothing about health and is anti-vaccine, was chosen as the Secretary of Health and Human Services.
Pete Hegseth—who has had many personal issues—had only run two non-profits into the ground before being put in charge of the largest bureaucracy in the government. It’s just astonishing. So, yeah, to get back to your question, I think there will be resistance to what Trump is doing—there already is.
But in particular, when it comes to imposing religious values—whether it’s through education policy or efforts like prosecuting physicians who prescribe mail-order abortion pills—I think there will be strong resistance. And I’m hopeful, at least, that the Christian nationalist agenda will ultimately fail.
Jacobsen: Are any parts of the Ten Commandments unique compared to other legal systems?
Lindsay: I’m curious if there are any.
“Taking the Lord’s name in vain” arguably could be, as I mentioned in my article for Free Inquiry, in all fairness, that may have influenced early American law because blasphemy laws were on the books in several states.
They were rare, but there were occasional blasphemy prosecutions. By the end of the 19th century, most states had abandoned those laws. And when the Supreme Court ruled that the First Amendment applied to the states—not just the federal government—those laws became dead letters anyway.
But for some time, that commandment may have been unique. I can’t say for certain—I don’t have an encyclopedic knowledge of legal systems in every country, particularly in Asia—but it may be unique. Again, that’s a long way from saying the Ten Commandments had a foundational effect on American law.
Jacobsen: I see a lot of this. I’ve tried to characterize it for a long time as a situation where most of the world espouses some form of transcendentalist, divine, religious ethics.
You have Hindu nationalists, Muslim-majority countries, Christian-majority countries—huge portions of the global population. Buddhists could be included in that as well.
However, the one ethical system that everyone adheres to in practice—one that is not confined to a region, a country, or a small rural community—is what I would consider secular because it does not invoke religion: human rights.
Human rights are based on principles of universalism. These universal, secular human rights are not necessarily in fundamental opposition to religious and moral systems. Still, they are much fairer because they incorporate freedom of religion and belief.
So, is there anything comparable in biblical teachings that leans toward a universalist point of view—something similar to what we see in modern ethics, like human rights?
Lindsay: Some people have tried to argue that there is.
But if we look at what Christians call the Old Testament—the Torah for Jews—there is nothing in it that is truly universalist. Ancient Judaism was very much a tribal religion, as evidenced by how non-Hebrews were treated. The slaughter of the Canaanites, for example, was explicitly sanctioned by God.
Some people have claimed that Jesus preached something resembling universalism, and you can interpret certain Gospel verses similarly. There may be a hint of that. However, regarding how Christendom interpreted Jesus’ teachings for centuries, universal human rights were never part of the equation.
That’s made clear by the fact that Christian churches fully accepted slavery. Slavery was not just tolerated—virtually all Christian denominations gave it explicit approval until the anti-slavery movement gained momentum in the 1700s.
So, for 1,700 years, the Christian Church not only failed to oppose slavery but, in many cases, actively justified and supported it. And it’s not just church history; biblical texts themselves reflect this.
Not so much in the words of Jesus, but in the Gospels and epistles, you see clear indications that slavery was accepted. For instance, some of Paul’s letters explicitly instruct enslaved people to obey their masters.
So, today, we recognize slavery as morally repugnant—certainly in light of universal human rights, as embodied in the UN Charter. But historically, Christianity did not lead the way in establishing those rights. Instead, it accommodated and even reinforced systems of oppression that modern human rights frameworks have had to dismantle.
That’s something that is regarded as morally repugnant. It’s highly immoral and impermissible. Again, to be fair, some of the sayings attributed to Jesus of Nazareth might hint at respect for humanity in general. However, the Enlightenment produced a well-developed theory of human rights as we understand it today.
The notion of human rights didn’t truly emerge until the late 1700s when people started writing about it systematically. With some exceptions—some of the Stoics talked about global rights—the human rights movement didn’t take shape until the 18th century as a broader movement, at least among the educated classes.
Jacobsen: What counterarguments do you usually encounter when making secular, skeptical, and humanistic arguments?
Lindsay: The most common one is easily refuted, but you hear it often.
And, usually not from well-educated people. It’s the idea that “If you don’t believe in God, then anything goes. If there’s no divine authority, people can do whatever they want.”
You’ll hear things like, “It’s all subjective. So if you say it’s okay to rape a child, then it’s okay, right?” Or, “If morality is subjective, then Jeffrey Dahmer eating someone is just his personal choice, and you can’t say it’s wrong.”
That conversation usually ends quickly. Among more sophisticated believers, the argument is more nuanced. They’ll often say, “There has to be some objective foundation for morality. We’re not saying atheists can’t be moral—we know they can—but they’re still relying on the moral heritage of Christianity or Judaism.”
A common analogy I’ve heard is that atheists are like people living in a house that Christianity built. They didn’t build the house but still got to live in it, even though they no longer acknowledged the source. This argument is framed in a more diplomatic and intellectually engaging way, as opposed to the outright hostility of those who claim, “You’re a horrible person if you don’t believe in God.”
But at the end of the day, it still comes down to the same assumption—that you need a deity to have an objective foundation for morality. The real foundation of morality is this: people need to ask, “What does morality do?” Because if morality doesn’t do something practical for us, why would we even have it? Morality serves a function. It helps societies thrive, regulates behaviour, and fosters cooperation.
It allows us to live together in peace, to foster cooperation, to foster trust, and to enable us to work together to improve our conditions. That’s really why we have all these moral rules—to enable us to progress together because progressing together makes things much easier.
We have to rely on each other, especially in a society with so much division of labor and specialization. And to rely on each other, we need trust. To have trust, we need to count on others—they will do what they say they will do.
I don’t have to worry about this person stealing from me or killing me, or what have you. So, morality’s objective basis is simple: it allows us to live together in peace and prosperity. You don’t need anything more objective than that.
Jacobsen: What about those who use religious ideology—like the Ten Commandments—as an ethical justification for completely abrogating authority and ignoring the secular law that everyone else abides by? The idea is, “It’s a law for thee, but not for me, because God is above all that, and I am merely a conduit and instrument of God. Therefore, I can justify my actions through that.”
Lindsay: Sure, and there are people like that. Fortunately, at least nowadays, in the West, that remains a minority viewpoint. But yes, some people do believe that “God’s law” prevails over secular law—whatever that secular law happens to be.
And obviously, we can’t tolerate that. The United States is a secular republic. Most Western democracies, even if they have religious traditions—Britain, for example, still has a monarchy that supposedly rules “by the divine grace of God”—are fundamentally secular.
Secular law has to govern. Because ultimately, what you’re saying when you claim divine authority is that someone can decide for themselves what the law is. If you’re invoking God, what you’re invoking is your idea of what is right and then attributing it to a deity. So, in reality, you’re just asking for an exception from the law for yourself.
You’re trying to make yourself a law unto yourself. For obvious reasons, we can’t tolerate that—not if we want to live together in a cohesive, prosperous, and cooperative society. We can’t have individuals deciding they can circumvent the law based on whatever they believe God or some figure whispered to them in their sleep.
Jacobsen: Ron, thank you for your time today. I appreciate it, and it’s nice to meet you.
Lindsay: Thanks. Thanks for inviting me. I enjoyed the conversation.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/08/08
Author Disclaimer
The views and opinions expressed in this article are solely those of the author and do not necessarily reflect the official policy or position of any organization, institution, or entity with which the author may be affiliated, including Humanists International.
Sean Faircloth is an American attorney, author, and former politician known for his passionate advocacy of secularism, children’s rights, and social justice. Born in Bangor, Maine, Faircloth served five terms in the Maine Legislature, where he was elected Majority Whip and championed over 30 laws, including the impactful “Deadbeat Dad” child support law, later incorporated into federal legislation. As Executive Director of the Secular Coalition for America and Director of Strategy at the Richard Dawkins Foundation, Faircloth promoted church-state separation and greater acceptance of nontheistic perspectives. In 2012, Faircloth authored Attack of the Theocrats!, critiquing religious influence in politics, followed by The Enchanted Globe, a children’s book designed to teach geography through fantasy. Elected Mayor of Bangor in 2016, he launched EnergySmart Bangor to reduce energy costs and advance local climate efforts. His continued public speaking addresses the vital role of secularism in maintaining a fair and inclusive society.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How would you characterize the evolution of secular activism? Personally, the 2000s version of secular activism seems to differ in character rather than in intent in some distinct ways.
Sean Faircloth: I don’t claim expertise on this evolution. I can tell you my goal focuses on policy. I adamantly support the principle that government strictly separates religion and government as America’s founders intended and that this separation grow and be implemented worldwide.
Jacobsen: People change in their humanism over time. How has your experience and growth in life changed your approach to humanism?
Faircloth: I’ve recently finished Marcus Aurelius’ book. (I recommend the modern translation The Emperor’s Handbook by Hicks). While good old Marcus is not exactly a contemporary writer (maybe the first in the self-help genre!), his ideas persuade me. I prefer a completely evidence-based approach to life. This “good” emperor emphasized that there is no need for anger, even when anger is an understandable human reaction to a harm or injustice. Rather one must move toward positive action within oneself, even with people who you deem wrong or hostile. View them first as beings toward whom compassion is warranted. (Admittedly, this gets challenging with someone like Trump!)
Jacobsen: Championing 30+ laws in Maine, what ones have been the most impactful, and what can other states learn from this work? As always, it’s a local, community effort linked to global ideas. People watch.
Faircloth: Of my legislative work, the so-called Deadbeat Dad law had perhaps the biggest impact as that was replicated at a national level. I don’t like the term deadbeat dad law. It’s sounds angry. The law simply provides that if one could afford a snow mobile or pickup truck payment one could also afford to pay child support owed. And though it was generally men who ignored legally ordered child support, some women do this as well. The law contained a sanction that one could lose one’s license if someone was not paying court ordered child support which a judge had found you could afford to pay. Some opposed it saying, if the parent couldn’t drive because they lost their license, they’d not work and not be able to afford payments. In fact, this almost never happened. Because the court order was found to be affordable in the first place, they almost always paid up, kept their license, and the duly adjudicated support was paid. This was replicated at the federal level and put food on the table for many low income children.
Jacobsen: What did you learn as the Mayor of Bangor City, Maine?
Faircloth: I try to study current policy and find pragmatic mechanisms to change policy to help people. Voting yes or voting no is important in any elective office. More important to me is coming up with new ideas based on research then working through a process which inevitably involves tinkering and modification as this or that concern arise. At that time, the two policies was first an EnergySmart program, utilizing a small low-cost subsidy supplementing state funds, thus dramatically increased heat pump usage with relatively little taxpayer funds. Second, data indicates that immigrants start businesses at a higher rate than native born Americans, and are quite entrepreneurial. I started the Maine Multicultural Center focused on welcoming immigrants. Maine has an aging population. This program helps grow and diversify our economy.
Jacobsen: What was the feedback to Attack of the Theocrats?
Faircloth: Well, the religious right sure didn’t like it. I got called some names. Ha. Sadly, Trump, who’d I’d suggest has no fixed ideology. Trump is simply a grifter, happy to exploit any tool at hand. Many in the religious right like authoritarianism. Trump is happy to find common ground. As we have seen in too many instances to count these mega-ministers lecture one way and pocket big money from parishioners while having lots of sex outside marriage (a private matter were it not directly hypocritical), often exploiting the people who are not of age of consent. Trump is sympatico with Christian nationalists. The guys at the top pocket the money, do whatever they like sexually, and lecture everybody else. So my book provided facts, but the grift, sad to say, grows exponentially under Trump. Most religious people are good decent people. My concerns are policy based. You generally won’t find some Anglican, Unitarian-Universalist, or reform Jew engaging in “God says I get to live in a mansion.” But Trump and Christo-Nationalists are in on the same grift. Violence has become an increasingly accepted part of their “righteous” arsenal. The authoritarian grift I describe in my books is even more powerful today, with an even stronger thread of violence.
Jacobsen: What did you learn about the state of secularism in the United States as the Executive Director of the Secular Coalition of America? There is a profound and deep promise in some of the ideals of the United States with the separation of religion and government.
Faircloth: One can look optimistically at the cause of separation of church and state in that more and more Americans do not identify with religion and thus should be allied with groups like the UU’s, Reform Jews and so on. Sadly the religious groups withsecular values do not have sway with the soon-to-be most powerful person earth. The Christian nationalists like Trump because when you pull of the mask this is about money and power with no ethical constraints. They have their very strict “moral” laws – but those only apply to underlings who cough up the cash. The money (often illegally gained) and sex (sometimes illegally procured) are free flowing with those in the Trumpian power center. The non-religious and the ethical religious must find common cause and unite for basic decency. With Trump in power it is not going to be easy.
Jacobsen: Do support for gender equality–child support legislation–and environmentalism–EnergySmart Bangor program and a gold medal from Environment Maine–factor into the work for secularism, or are these separate agendas to you?
Faircloth: Every policy I’ve advocated must first be convincing to me as evidence-based with the goal of greater human flourishing. It would never cross my mind to say God requires women to forgo control of their own bodies. I commend the many religious people who share this view a secular policy view. I flat reject the premise that “here is an ancient [allegedly] god-given rule, therefore it is ethical and therefore moral law to be followed.” My life mission is to seek out changing my mind based on evidence.
Jacobsen: “Stop the Religious Right: Four Steps You Can Take” gives four ways to combat religious overreach. That was 12 years ago. What is the same or different in these steps, even the number of steps?
Faircloth: I’d like to see these same steps implemented. The non-religious must do so in alliance with the many religious groups who do not support the even more dastardly turn that the religious right working in collaboration with Trump seek to implement. Christo-fascism was simmering and growing twelve years ago. Sadly it’s chief enabler has helped it exponentially and is now coming to unprecedented power. The reality objectively is ominous. Courageous people must push back.
Jacobsen: Do you plan to retire, or is the work for activism a lifework for you?
Faircloth: For me life is getting results. I will work until my last functional day. Whether in starting the Maine Discovery Museum, in elective office, or in other cause-focused organizations, my goal is to be able to look myself in the eye and say, at least in some way, I’m working for a better world. And to quote a certain Beatle: “couldn’t get much worse.”
Jacobsen: What are your favorite humanism coda quotes?
Faircloth: “I rejoice in life for its own sake. Life is no ‘brief candle’ for me. It is a sort of splendid torch which I have got hold of for the moment, and I want to make it burn as brightly as possible before handing it on to future generations.” – George Bernard Shaw
And my own, ha!
“I’m a militant agnostic. I don’t know! — and you don’t either!” I’m proud of my continual willingness change my conclusions based on evidence. If I die and I wake in heaven to a box of chocolates and free pizza without ever getting fat, fine with me, but I expect no such thing. To me the only “reward” I expect is to, as best I can, continue to learn, change, evolve myself, evolve my mind, and become a better human while I’ve got this extremely brief opportunity to carry the human torch of enlightenment.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Sean.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/04
Bob Reuter, President of the Allianz vun Humanisten, Atheisten an Agnostiker Lëtzebuerg (AHA Luxembourg), talks about hosting the Humanists International 2025 conference and General Assembly in Luxembourg-City. Scheduled for July 5, 2025, the conference’s theme—“From Awareness to Action: Strengthening Open Societies Through Scientific Literacy”—reflects growing global concern over the rising spread of disinformation, populism, authoritarianism and anti-science obscurantism. Reuter emphasizes the role of humanist values and rational inquiry in sustaining democracy. Held at the Coque National Sports and Culture Centre, the conference location offers accessible public transport and opportunities for cultural exploration in and around the capital city. He’ll speak about the different topics addressed by different speakers during the conference and how AHA Luxembourg is trying to mitigate global inequity issues through local hosting options for international delegates facing financial barriers.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Bob Reuter, President of AHA Luxembourg.
The upcoming conference will be held from on July 5, 2025, at the Coque, the National Sports and Culture Centre in Luxembourg-City. It is being organized in collaboration with Humanists International and hosted locally by AHA Luxembourg. Let’s discuss some of the program details and the overarching theme, “From Awareness to Action: Strengthening Open Societies Through Scientific Literacy.”
What other themes were considered, and why was this chosen?
Bob Reuter: I have had the idea of hosting the international conference and the General Assembly of Humanists International in Luxembourg for several years. Since I became president in February 2019, this specific topic—scientific literacy—has been on my mind as a theme to address via our actions as a humanist organization. I do believe that advancing public understanding of science is a critical mission for humanist organizations worldwide.
The purpose is not just to critique religion or advocate for compassion—although part of our work—but to embed rational thinking and empirical science into everyday life. As a scientist, I’ve always been interested in how knowledge is generated, what we can honestly know, and how we know it. In that sense, this theme felt inevitable and necessary. We did not seriously entertain alternative themes.
When I submitted the proposal to host the conference, I envisioned a connection between open societies, democracy, and scientific literacy. What I could not have anticipated was just how timely this would become. In the years leading up to 2025, we have seen growing threats from authoritarian regimes and populist movements that seek to discredit experts and marginalize academic institutions and the very project of Enlightenment.
When a government attempts to establish a theocracy or an authoritarian state and labels professors and scientists as enemies of the nation, it directly opposes everything modern democratic and humanist traditions represent—reason, evidence, rule of law, democratic gouvernance, empathy, and solidarity. This conflict has deep historical roots, but we primarily draw on the legacy of the Enlightenment and the French Revolution, which advanced these values in Europe. Of course, similar principles have emerged independently in other cultures, but this is the intellectual lineage most familiar to us in contemporary Western humanism.
Jacobsen: Who are some notable Luxembourgish humanists in the country’s history?
Reuter: That’s a difficult question. Luxembourg has long been considered a predominantly Catholic country, and secularism has only begun to gain broader visibility in recent decades. Due to cultural and political pressures, the history of atheists, freethinkers, and humanists in Luxembourg has largely remained obscure.
This does not mean there were no humanists or secular thinkers. Much like in the United States, until recently, if someone wanted to pursue a respected public career—especially in politics—they often needed to align themselves publicly with religion, as it was associated with morality and social cohesion.
Some influential Luxembourgers may have been privately nonreligious, but few were open. That said, I know from personal family records that my great-great-grandfather was openly nonreligious. We’ve documented this in our family’s oral and written history. So, even if they were not widely known or celebrated, secular thinkers were very much part of Luxembourg’s intellectual and cultural landscape. I wouldn’t say that he was famous—I am not trying to claim that—but I want to emphasize that around 1920 in Luxembourg, there were already openly nonreligious individuals. In recent history, we have seen at least a few intellectuals—often high school professors—openly committed to humanistic values.
Jacobsen: Can you name one?
Reuter: I could name Nelly Moya, a woman who recently passed away. She was a freethinker in the best sense of the word. She taught philosophy, ethics, arts and languages and encouraged her students to think critically and challenge assumptions.
Although I didn’t have her as a teacher, we recently produced a radio program about her life, featuring someone who had been her student and later became a close friend and co-advocate for feminism in Luxembourg.
Many people in Luxembourg have lived according to humanist values, even if they are more widely remembered in history books for their contributions to workers’ rights, women’s rights, and other social causes. So yes, they are often more recognized for those battles than for explicitly identifying as humanists.
AHA Luxembourg was only recently founded in 2010. Before that, Luxembourg had associations that focused more broadly on freedom of conscience, freedom of thought and secularism rather than on humanism as a life-stance.
Jacobsen: At the upcoming international humanist conference, Clemens Lintschinger will argue that science strengthens democracy. Christian Meyers will examine how anti-science and anti-democracy are interconnected. Monica Belițoiu will present a science-themed calendar. Leo Igwe will highlight witch-hunting in Africa. Sudesh Ghoderao will outline educator training and student programs in India. Hanna Siemaszko will explore podcasting for science communication. Ann Kiefer will showcase Science Slams as a way to transform research into engaging public presentations. Dennis Fink will promote hands-on science through interactive exhibits. Louis Krieger will introduce Scienteens Lab’s experiential approach to science education. Boris van der Ham will present Human for All Seasons. and Michèle Weber will emphasize fostering scientific literacy.
Reuter: Yes, Monica was actually first confirmed keynote speaker and we were very happy to count her among our speakers.
But, let me briefly explain the program’s structure. The conference is titled “From Awareness to Action,” and it is divided into two main parts.
The first part will focus on awareness—essentially, the problems regarding science, democracy, and the rival ideologies and forces they face today. The second part will focus on action—what people are doing locally and internationally to promote scientific thinking, democratic values, and rational inquiry.
Monica’s contribution is part of that second section. She will speak about efforts to spark curiosity and foster a love of science in children, primarily through tools that combat pseudoscience and promote evidence-based thinking from a young age. I’ve personally supported their Scientific Calendar Project. It’s an excellent idea—transforming what is typically a religious calendar (a common feature in many Romanian homes) into a secular educational tool. Instead of listing saints, their calendar highlights scientific discoveries, figures, and concepts—something people can reflect on daily.
Last year, the calendar focused on female scientists, a much-needed topic often receiving too little attention in standard science education.
Jacobsen: What about accommodations? Why was the Coque National Sports and Culture Centre chosen as the venue?
Reuter: We considered other venues as well. One was the Abbaye de Neumünster, which is also in Luxembourg-City. So, a former abbey—Abbaye de Neumünster—has been converted into a cultural and meeting space. We have a shared history with this place in that some of the first events organized by AHA Lëtzebuerg were held there. It’s a lovely venue located just outside the old city center of Luxembourg-City.
However, it was not available. Another location we considered was the Maison du Savoir, where the University of Luxembourg is located, in Esch-Belval, in the south of Luxembourg. The campus is part of the Cité des Sciences (City of Science), which would have been a fitting venue for a conference on strengthening open societies through scientific literacy.
Unfortunately, on that same weekend, a major music and light show festival is being held on campus. That means that all the hotels, restaurants, and public spaces in the area would be fully occupied by festival goers, so that location was ruled out.
In the end, we were deciding between a city cultural center and the Coque National Sports and Culture Centre. We chose Coque because it offered the most suitable facilities in terms of size, accessibility, and the infrastructure needed for an international conference. It’s a modern, well-equipped, centrally located venue—ideal for welcoming participants from across Europe and beyond. And it’s very accessible, being located on the Kirchberg Plateau, just outside the old town, close to the airport, near the motorway, and easily reachable from the central train station via tram. In fact, the tram now runs directly from the airport through Kirchberg and into the city center.
By the way, public transport in Luxembourg is free nationwide, which makes things even easier for conference participants.
I was already familiar with Coque’s auditorium, which is a beautiful, fully equipped space with excellent multimedia facilities. Compared to other venues, it’s essentially plug-and-play—they have a full-time technician on site, which saves us from having to rent and install separate equipment. They also provide on-site catering.
As a fun bonus, the center includes Luxembourg’s largest swimming pool, a 50-meter Olympic-sized pool. So, if people want to swim after the sessions, they can. I remember hearing about a similar thing in Iceland’s Blue Lagoon—people would attend a conference, get a little drunk, float in the water, and wake up on the other side of the lagoon. [laughs]
Jacobsen: That’s a great detail. Also, for our international audience, “Coque” does not mean what many English speakers might assume.
Reuter: Yes, I’ve heard international guests joke about the name! But “Coque” is the French word for “shell”. Seashells inspired the design of the building—you can see that in the architecture. For instance, one of the building’s entrances has a distinctive round roof resembling a mollusk shell. The swimming pool and the other structures are designed as interlocking shell shapes. That’s the inspiration behind the name.
Jacobsen: What are you expecting in terms of attendance this year?
Reuter: Well, we’re still in the process of selling tickets. So far, things look promising, with 75 tickets sold, so we have not yet reached our cap of 200 participants. We do still have room. We have informed our members but haven’t done a full national publicity push yet. In the coming weeks, we’ll do more outreach here in Luxembourg. Up to now, our promotion has focused mainly on the Humanists International audience.
Jacobsen: That looks positive. I mean, I’m going myself, and I still bought my own ticket! I’m still waiting on sponsorship—for example, to cover my flight from Iceland, accommodation, and related travel expenses.
Reuter: Gary McLelland and Javan Lev Poblador from Humanists International have told me that delegates coming from the Global South or from further afield need to buy their tickets first because they must apply for visas early.
Jacobsen: That makes sense—visa applications can take a long time.
Reuter: They know that, and we can only issue an official invitation letter after they’ve registered and paid for their tickets. That’s part of the administrative requirement.
Jacobsen: This raises concerns about global equity, right? Some people—often from Western countries—can travel freely, while others face intense scrutiny, paperwork, and financial obstacles.
Reuter: Absolutely. It’s a long-standing issue. The barriers are financial, cultural and institutional—visa restrictions, documentation, etc. Many people want to attend, but systemic inequalities make it difficult.
Jacobsen: So, what have you been doing to address those access issues?
Reuter: At our recently held General Assembly, one of our members suggested we should contact our community to see if local members could host international delegates in their homes. I thought that was a great idea, and this morning, I emailed all 800 members of our association, asking them to offer spare rooms if they can. Hopefully, this can lower financial barriers and make it easier for participants from lower-income countries to come to Luxembourg.
Jacobsen: That’s a generous and thoughtful gesture. Also, for context, people may not realize that Luxembourg is one of the wealthiest countries in the world when measured by purchasing power parity (PPP)—alongside countries like Qatar and Singapore.
Reuter: So, people should be realistic about costs. The most significant expense here is accommodation. It is not easy to find anything below €100 per night for a single room; more commonly, you’ll be paying €150 or more.
Jacobsen: And the food?
Reuter: Food is not cheap either. But for the conference and the General Assembly, we’ll offer subsidized meals. Attendees won’t be paying the full cost of the food, especially for the Gala Dinner, which will be included in the full package at a reduced rate.
Otherwise, meals can easily cost €15–20 for breakfast at a hotel and more for lunch or dinner in a restaurant.
Jacobsen: Is there anything that is not expensive?
Reuter: Yes! Public transportation in Luxembourg is entirely free—nationwide. That includes buses, trains, and trams. The only exception is first-class train compartments marked clearly and have different-coloured seats. If you avoid those, you can travel for free in second class as much as you like. It’s a great benefit for visitors.
Jacobsen: That’s worth highlighting. And for those who want to stay a little longer—are there things to see or do in Luxembourg?
Reuter: Yes. Luxembourg has a lot to offer—UNESCO World Heritage sites, beautiful old fortifications, modern museums, and easy access to nature trails, even within the city. The Müllerthal region, for example, is like a little Switzerland. And since the country is small, you can get anywhere in about an hour using public transport. Perfect for a few days of exploration before or after the conference.
Jacobsen: That’s excellent. We’ll have to wrap up here, but the complete list of speakers and all relevant details about the conference are available on the official event website.
Reuter: Yes. Everything is listed online, and we’re happy to welcome participants from all over the world.
Jacobsen: People should know that if you’re coming to Luxembourg, food and hotels will cost a bit—but public transportation is free, folks. So pair up if you can. Share a hotel room. Bunk up. Now, let’s say people have a free morning or do not plan to attend every session. They may arrive early or stay a few days after the conference. What can they do while they’re in Luxembourg?
Reuter: The first and easiest thing is to explore Luxembourg City. It’s quite old—the city was founded before 1000—and has a rich historical center. You can visit the Old Town, a UNESCO World Heritage Site, and one of the highlights is the underground casemates, a system of tunnels built into the rock under the city.
These tunnels help explain why Luxembourg was once one of the most sought-after fortresses in Europe. Because of its geography and fortifications, it was considered virtually impregnable, which made it strategically important for various European powers over the centuries.
Jacobsen: You almost get this medieval, “fantasy realm” vibe when you hear the word fortress-like something from The Lord of the Rings. “The Realm of Luxembourg at the Fortress!”
Reuter: [Laughing] It sounds a bit like that! But it’s not fantasy—it was all genuine: war, politics, and power. In the Middle Ages and even later, control over Luxembourg meant influence over broader regions of Europe.
Logistically, it’s simple: You can take the tram from the conference venue at Kirchberg straight into the city center to explore these historic areas.
If you want to venture outside the city, you can head north into the more rural regions of the country. One of the most beautiful areas is the Müllerthal, called “Little Switzerland.” It features sandstone caves, wooded trails, and narrow valleys—ideal for hiking. It’s delightful if the weather is hot because it stays cooler in the shaded forests.
Jacobsen: That sounds like a great escape into nature.
Reuter: Absolutely. And if you have more time, you can take advantage of Luxembourg’s location at the crossroads of France, Germany, and Belgium. There are direct train connections to:
- Trier is one of the oldest cities in Germany and is known for its Roman ruins.
- Metz or Nancy is in northeastern France, which has beautiful architecture and cultural attractions.
- Arlon is just over the border in Belgium, a quiet town that’s easy to reach.
Jacobsen: And food—what can people expect regarding local cuisine?
Reuter: Luxembourg is a multicultural and multilingual country, reflected in the food scene. We host many different nationalities, which shows up in the various restaurants and culinary options available.
For example, one of the most commonly consumed cuisines today is Italian, which stems from the first significant immigration wave in the early 20th century—when many Italians moved here to work in the steel industry. You’ll also find a lot of Portuguese food, Mexican, Indian, Nepalese, and, of course, French cuisine, which has strongly influenced Luxembourg’s culinary culture.
There’s also quite a bit of fusion cuisine, where people blend traditional and modern influences to create something entirely new.
Of course, there’s traditional Luxembourgish food, which historically has been very potato—and meat-based. These dishes have become more refined over the years. One traditional item, for example, is “Gromperekichelcher”, a potato fritter—grated potatoes mixed with eggs and flour, then baked or fried into patties. It’s a bit like a vegetarian burger but made from simple, rustic ingredients.
Jacobsen: For those on a tight budget, would grocery shopping be a practical option beyond sharing hotel rooms or staying in hostels?
Reuter: I would have recommended the youth hostel in Luxembourg City, which is centrally located and competitively priced—but unfortunately, it’s already fully booked.
So, if someone wants to go the hostel route, I’d suggest checking Youth Hostels. lu for hostels slightly outside the city. As long as you’re near a train station, it’s no problem—all public transportation in Luxembourg is free, including trains.
Also, at least in the hotel where we’ve arranged a discount, double rooms are only €20 more than single rooms. So, if you’re comfortable sharing, it’s a good way to cut costs. Of course, it depends on who you’re sharing it with!
Jacobsen: Right, it all depends on compatibility.
Reuter: To help lower barriers even further, we recently asked our members if they’d be willing to host international delegates. I’m still waiting for more responses.
One former colleague of mine—also a member—wrote back and said he would have hosted a few people at his large house. But he’ll be abroad that weekend, and understandably, he’s uncomfortable offering his home to people he doesn’t know while away. He would’ve done it gladly if he were in town.
So yes, we’re still collecting responses. If we get enough volunteer hosts, we will list those free accommodation options on the conference website’s recommendations page.
Jacobsen: What about some cultural nuances? Are there any faux pas that travellers should know in Luxembourgish culture? Is the range of offence wide or narrow?
Reuter: That’s a great question—and actually, the fact that it’s hard to think of a clear answer already tells you something. In Luxembourg, there are few strict cultural faux pas. We’re used to intercultural interactions, so cultural misunderstandings are common—and mostly forgiven.
When I was a child, a typical Luxembourgish saying was: “Do as people do, and you will be treated as people are treated.” It reflected a confident conformist attitude and a pressure to blend in. At that time, being openly nonreligious or vegetarian, for instance, would have made someone stand out. But this has changed dramatically over the past few decades.
Today, people in Luxembourg are used to switching between cultural repertoires in terms of language and behaviour. For example, I rarely hug or kiss in professional settings with German colleagues. However, with French or Belgian colleagues, not greeting with one, two, or even three kisses—even between men—might be seen as impolite. We navigate these nuances on a case-by-case basis, and there’s a high understanding of cultural differences.
Jacobsen: That’s insightful. Beyond etiquette, some attendees may want to understand Luxembourg’s cultural evolution—especially around religion. You mentioned earlier that religion used to dominate. What does that look like today?
Reuter: Yes—today, much less so. Luxembourg’s current situation is closer to Canada’s than Iceland’s or the UK’s.
The legacy of Catholicism still lingers, especially in the national narrative. There’s often a default assumption that Christianity—specifically Roman Catholicism—is the cultural norm, especially in traditional settings. However, this assumption is no longer representative of what most people believe.
We recently conducted a nationally representative survey in Luxembourg, asking people about their beliefs and values. The results showed that the population largely aligns with humanist values rather than traditional religious ones. This trend was likely already present thirty years ago but was less visible in public discourse then.
Jacobsen: So if religion no longer dominates, what is today’s prevailing ideology or influence?
Reuter: Honestly, it’s probably neoliberalism. While Luxembourg may not be “rich” in a Scandinavian egalitarian sense, it is a country that is proud of its wealth and actively works to attract banks, insurance companies, industries, and international corporations.
We provide these entities with a multicultural, multilingual, and highly skilled environment. That economic orientation—combined with global finance and international institutions—has shaped a new kind of national identity that is pragmatic, market-oriented, and very much focused on maintaining competitiveness.
We also draw much of our workforce from the Greater Region—a cross-border economic area surrounding Luxembourg. This includes parts of Belgium, France, and Germany—forming a radius of about 200 kilometres around Luxembourg City. People commute daily across borders for work, especially into the capital.
Jacobsen: It’s an old city—what’s the oldest part?
Reuter: The oldest part dates back to the 10th century, around 963 CE. That’s when Count Siegfried, often called the Duke of Luxembourg in legend, acquired a rocky promontory called Lucilinburhuc and founded what would become Luxembourg City. From that fortress, the town grew into what it is today.
Luxembourg is still relatively small compared to other European capitals but has expanded well beyond its medieval boundaries. On modern maps, you can still see the outline of the old fortress—the ring road or boulevard where today’s cars, trams, and buses run marks where the city walls once stood.
Jacobsen: How has the country’s economy evolved?
Reuter: Luxembourg was primarily an agricultural country until the early 20th century. Then, with the rise of the steel industry, it became industrial. That lasted until around the 1970s–1980s, when steel production declined—largely because local iron ore reserves were depleted. Some facilities were moved to Brazil and China, but the core company—what is now ArcelorMittal, after several mergers—still has its headquarters in Luxembourg and operates globally in metals and manufacturing.
After the decline of heavy industry, Luxembourg transitioned into a service-based economy; today, it’s a global hub for finance, insurance, and digital services.
Jacobsen: What are Luxembourg’s main imports and exports?
Reuter: That’s a complex question. We likely import more than we export, especially in terms of goods. Like much of Europe, we import significantly from China, particularly electronics and consumer goods—things often designed in California but manufactured in Asia.
Interestingly, Apple has its European headquarters for iTunes in Luxembourg. So, on paper, we may “export” music or digital content—but this content is not produced here. It’s just registered through Luxembourg for tax and legal reasons, which is part of the country’s role in global digital infrastructure.
On the export side, one curious example is wood. A lot of Luxembourgish and European timber is exported to China. This is partly logistical—cargo ships bringing electronics from China cannot return empty, so they’re often filled with wood on the return trip. Ironically, it would make more economic sense to turn that wood into furniture locally—adding value here—but that’s a typical story in global capitalism.
Jacobsen: What advice would you offer to humanist organizations elsewhere in the world that might want to host a General Assembly and international conference in their city?
Reuter: My first piece of advice is to submit a proposal to Humanists International expressing your interest in hosting. They will provide detailed information about the conditions you need to meet—logistical, financial, and otherwise.
Then—perhaps most importantly—secure a venue early on. That was the most challenging part for us. You need a space that is large enough, well-equipped, accessible, and, crucially, affordable.
So yes, you need to find a venue with enough capacity, available, and ideally affordable because, as I mentioned earlier, other locations I had hoped for weren’t available even a year in advance. That kind of timeline isn’t always sufficient for popular venues.
Of course, you should begin reaching out to speakers—those you want to recruit for the international conference. You should also stay in close contact with the Humanists International team. They are the professionals; they’ve been through multiple iterations of this type of event and know what’s required.
Jacobsen: Thanks again, Bob. Talk soon.
Reuter: Thank you. Take care.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/04
Adrián Núñez talks about the growing authoritarianism in Peru, the attack on civil associations, and the erosion of secularism. Núñez describes government interference through APCI laws, the Catholic Church’s privileged status, and the threats faced by indigenous communities. He highlights systemic corruption, organized crime, and weakened human rights protections. Despite setbacks, Peruvian humanists continue advocating for secularism and future reforms. They recently launched a documentary promoting secular values. Núñez stresses that humanism must adapt to local contexts, focusing on immediate survival issues while preserving long-term principles like freedom, evidence-based policy, and separation of church and state.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Adrián Núñez. So, what is new? What is happening in your corner of the humanist world?
Adrián Núñez: We are somewhat afraid of the government, especially regarding our Association. Right now, Peru has an increasingly authoritarian government. It is not so much the President herself but Congress that is in control. Congress is dominated by a coalition of conservative parties that have taken over different government institutions. They want to consolidate total control, but so far, they have not been able to capture the judiciary — at least not yet.
The problem is that they are attacking civil associations like ours. For example, they modified the law that regulates APCI — the Agencia Peruana de Cooperación Internacional (Peruvian Agency for International Cooperation). This agency oversees foreign funding for NGOs and associations.
We are not yet registered with APCI, but they could force us to register under the new law. If we are forced to register, they can review and censor our activities. We would have to report what we plan to do with foreign funds, and they could block projects they disapprove of. For example, if we wanted to defend someone attacked by the church or the state, the government could stop us. So, for now, we are holding off until this law is either challenged or better defined.
This is a significant concern for us.
At the same time, a group of associations (including our association), journalists, victims and others have been fighting against a powerful conservative Catholic institution, the Sodalitium Christianae Vitae (Sodalitium of Christian Life). This organization has been implicated in numerous cases of sexual, physical, and psychological abuse in Peru.
Thanks to pressure from journalists, survivors, and activists, the Vatican — under Pope Francis — took action. The Vatican intervened and, after several investigations, essentially dismantled the leadership of the Sodalitium. The organization has been formally dissolved but they preserve, through third parties and trusts, companies and assets that continue to generate income and power for them. It was a hard fight, but it represents a significant, medium-sized victory for us.
Now, the victims are seeking legal and moral justice — not just religious acknowledgment, but actual prosecution of the abusers and financial compensation for damages. Many of the accused within the Sodalitium had close ties to organized crime, including groups involved in violent land seizures in northern Peru.
That is a glimpse into some of the harsh realities here — real “Latin American” problems.
Jacobsen: For our international audience, there is also “Rolexgate.” President Dina Boluarte is under investigation after being seen wearing luxury watches, including Rolexes. At the same time, she declared that her salary could not explain such expenses. Investigations revealed that between 2016 and 2022, she had unexplained cash deposits totalling around 1.1 million soles (about USD 300,000).
In March 2024, police raided both her private residence and the Government Palace. Although several motions have been filed in Congress to remove her for “moral incapacity,” Congress has not proceeded with impeachment.
Jacobsen: Approval ratings for Boluarte’s administration have plummeted, with some indicating only 3% public support. In more recent news, on April 15, former President Ollanta Humala and his wife Nadine Heredia were each sentenced to fifteen years in prison for money laundering related to illicit campaign funds from the Brazilian construction company Odebrecht. This marks a significant chapter in the ongoing Lava Jato corruption scandal involving numerous Latin American leaders.
Also, former President Pedro Castillo was on trial for rebellion following his attempt to dissolve Congress in December 2022. Around March 2025, Castillo initiated a hunger strike, which ended after he was hospitalized.
On those major issues — what is the humanist response to these presidential-level scandals?
Núñez: The good thing is that we can at least jail the powerful. That is funny — we can still prosecute people in power.
However, it shows the deep, systemic corruption within our institutions. There are differences between these leaders. Pedro Castillo, the last elected President, tried to stage a coup — live on television — but it was completely disorganized. He did not coordinate with the military or anyone else. Perhaps it was the most ridiculous coup attempt in our history because it was ineffective. He tried to flee to Mexico but was captured at a traffic stop in Lima.
Now, Castillo is jailed during his legal proceedings.
When Castillo fell, his second vice president, Dina Boluarte, took over the presidency.
The thing is, Dina Boluarte has proven to be highly incompetent. She even confessed on television to crimes, which is remarkable. Here in Peru, it is illegal for public officials to receive or even temporarily possess expensive gifts — like Rolex watches — whether or not they are owned outright. Even loans or temporary use of luxury items are considered illegal.
Boluarte confessed to having received these goods as a loan (trying to say that they were not payments), yet nothing happened because she and Congress are defending each other. In reality, she is a puppet of Congress, which effectively controls everything right now.
The common link among all these figures is their conservative worldview. Most of them are deeply aligned with the most conservative sectors of society and work closely with different Christian denominations and powerful religious institutions. This does not mean that the rulers are necessarily conservative at heart. Since Fujimori’s first election, in 1990, I see candidates turning to and making pacts with some churches to get votes. Since then we have seen that some religious sectors that did not participate in politics before started to send candidates. This, I think, has contributed to Peru’s alignment with the polarising and binary tendency of other countries on the continent.
So, the problem is not only corrupt individuals elected to Congress or the presidency. It is also about a large, entrenched conservative power structure in Peru. Or at least, with a conservative discourse.
Jacobsen: Two things. There has been a growing, though still limited, conversation in the international humanist community. The latest Amsterdam Declaration — the third one — touched on themes like indigenous rights, historical representation, and the evolution of humanism as a codified institutional force.
Of course, humanism has appeared in different forms across many cultures and times throughout history. So, two topics: one on the environment and one on indigenous rights. Those two things—environmental protection and indigenous rights—often go together in many countries.
Recently, Peru amended its Forestry and Wildlife Law, eliminating the requirement for state authorization before converting forested land, effectively legalizing past illegal deforestation. Environmentalists and indigenous groups argue that this threatens the Amazon rainforest and undermines indigenous rights, particularly because there was insufficient consultation with indigenous communities before the amendment was passed.
Second, as you mentioned at the outset of the interview, new restrictions have been imposed on NGOs and human rights advocacy—two more central aspects of humanist advocacy.
In March 2025, Peru enacted a law restricting NGOs from initiating legal actions against the state for human rights violations. In other words, by law, human rights advocacy organizations are now prevented from effectively pressuring the government. This nullifies much of the purpose of human rights organizations in Peru—they are supposed to serve as mediators, informers, and watchdogs for governmental actions.
What has been the conversation within the humanist community in Peru on these two topics—environmental and indigenous rights and restrictions on human rights advocacy?
Núñez: Regarding indigenous people, especially in areas like the Amazon, they are often the ones defending the land against illegal exploitation — such as illegal mining and illegal deforestation. For years now, indigenous defenders have been killed by mafias involved in these illicit activities. The government is unable, or unwilling, to protect them, so these communities have had to defend themselves.
There is a local vigilance system because official authorities often refuse to intervene. Moreover, some of these mafias are directly linked to members of Congress. Certain political parties have financial ties to illegal mining companies, so internal lobbying within Congress protects these activities. Congress is actively promoting laws favouring these mafias and weakening land protections. The most serious issue regarding indigenous rights is the fight over land and survival.
As for NGOs, here in Peru, we do not have the term “NGO” as a type of legal entity. The term NGO is a creation of the UN and in Peru if you want to register an NGO you have to choose one of the two options that are adapted to our civil code: association or foundation.
Some associations must register with APCI—the Agencia Peruana de Cooperación Internacional(Peruvian Agency for International Cooperation)—. For example, those dedicated to development or those that receive funds from international cooperation for education or assistance. Right now the government has just enacted a law modifying the role of the APCI that allows it to censor and fine registered associations.
A 2007 ruling of the Constitutional Court indicates that it is not mandatory for an association to register with APCI, and this saves some associations like ours for the moment, but the Constitutional Court is also functional to the government coalition and someone could go to this tribunal to reverse this ruling.
Because of the new law, and because the President is now the only person who can appoint the head of APCI, you cannot effectively go against the President or the government if they commit abuses or crimes—that is our reality now.
There are several propaganda outlets on television, paper and in online media. Because of this, many people, even those we once considered freethinkers or skeptics, believe all the misinformation. They are trapped inside that ideological bubble now. One of the slogans of these media is that NGOs are evil, destructive institutions that want to ideologize us or that come with a perverse agenda.
It is very similar to what you see in the United States: large propaganda media outlets and many people are conditioned to believe whatever they are told.
Jacobsen: Societies create many myths about themselves and each other. For example, many might be surprised to learn that the United States is the only country in the world that has not ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child.
It is the most widely ratified human rights document globally. The U.S. signed it over thirty years ago, on February 16, 1995, but has never ratified it. Somalia was the second-to-last country to sign, and they completed ratification in 2015. So now, the U.S. stands completely alone.
Another example: Americans often point to child marriage as a significant issue in Saudi Arabia. That is fair. However, if they looked internally, they would find that the United States has more instances of child marriage than Saudi Arabia.
These are essential contexts to remember. I had another question regarding extortion and the rise of organized crime.
In the early 2000s, a famous case was about North American rapper Eminem (Marshall Mathers). In that period, he was allegedly being extorted by members of the Crips, one of the most prominent gangs in Los Angeles. His manager enlisted the Boo-Yaa T.R.I.B.E., a Samoan-American hip-hop group, for protection. It worked — people were genuinely terrified of the Boo-Yaa T.R.I.B.E. Of course, not everyone has the fame, money, or foresight to enlist such protection.
Now, shifting back to Peru, there has been a noticeable rise in organized crime here as well. Extortion cases allegedly reached over 17,000 in the first ten months of 2024. Some of these criminal networks have ties to Colombia and Venezuela. They are targeting sectors like transportation, education, and others.
Despite military patrols, authorities are struggling to contain the violence. From a humanist perspective, what concerns do you have regarding human rights violations related to this wave of organized crime? You do not have to comment on the Eminem story — I thought it was remarkable.
Núñez: This situation is partly due to the lack of evidence-based policies. In the past, we had a competent division within the police dedicated to intelligence work. They were very practical—they quietly captured gangs, dismantled two terrorist organizations, found fugitives from justice, confiscated weapons, and disrupted criminal activity.
However, that unit has not been renewed or strengthened over the last ten years. So now, in practice we have no operational intelligence division. That is one of the root causes behind the spread of organized crime.
Another factor is that this is not just a Peruvian phenomenon but regional across Latin America. However, in Peru, specific political decisions made the situation worse.
For instance, Congress deactivated a law that allowed police to detain a person suspected of committing a crime for a few days while conducting an investigation. Usually, under suspicion of committing a crime, you could be held temporarily at a police station to determine whether to proceed with formal charges.
Crime surged when Congress suspended that detention authority for three months or more. Police could no longer take preventive action. That legislative change benefited certain Congress and government individuals who did not want to risk detention.
Another example is if the police or prosecutor suspect you are connected to a criminal gang. Previously, with a court order, they could enter your home or office and investigate without warning (this is how they found one of the Rolex certificates in the house of Boluarte). Because of recent legal reforms, the police must inform the suspect beforehand—they have to call and announce that they are coming, and the suspect must have their lawyer present.
It is absurd. It completely undermines investigations. In practice, this change actively encouraged the growth of organized crime.
Another aspect is that violent crime is relatively new to us. Crime itself is not new — you could be robbed or mugged in the past — but assassinations were rare. Now, targeted killings are happening more frequently. That is a new and alarming development for Peru.
Jacobsen: We have discussed legislative advocacy and civil rights issues. We have also discussed how many of these social problems are rooted in the absence of evidence-based policy and law. A Nigerian humanist once pointed out that freedom of expression and speech are essential — but only after basic survival needs are met.
In some African contexts, safety is more critical than free speech. When survival is not guaranteed, safety becomes the immediate and primary concern, while freedom of expression becomes secondary. That is what I mean by contextual rank ordering of values.
This Nigerian humanist emphasized, “Of course, freedom of speech matters, but in our situation, safety and well-being come first.” The constellation of humanist values varies by context, but I do not think it changes—it is about how they are prioritized in different circumstances.
If someone already has safety, healthcare, a sound education system, a relatively rational political system, evidence-based policies, and civil discourse, their concerns naturally shift toward more abstract ideas—the development and ethical implementation of technology, for example.
At that point, your focus might resemble the vision in Isaac Asimov’s science fiction—technology-driven societies focused on exploration, innovation, and advanced rights. But it always depends on the context.
Núñez: Yes, absolutely. It is entirely valid.
You must first worry about the most immediate and serious issues. Older problems—survival and basic rights—must come first. Future problems can come later. This is perfectly valid. As you said, the important thing is that humanism should be open and broad enough to allow for different focuses in different parts of the world.
It is like this: if you are persecuted for being a witch in your country, you must focus on that specific problem. You cannot prioritize distant or abstract concerns when your immediate safety and rights are threatened.
Jacobsen: There is an old saying about gangsters in the United States: the first rule of a gangster is silence. The joke is that there is no such thing as authentic gangster rap because if you were a real gangster, you would not talk so much.
More seriously, if being accused of witchcraft can lead your own family to throw battery acid on you or your community to murder you — as happens in some African contexts — then silence becomes primary. Freedom of expression takes a backseat because survival becomes the overriding concern.
It is always about applying values within context. Flexibility is a strength of humanism—it has adaptability built into it. But it requires mindfulness of context.
Núñez: Yes, it is an intersectionality issue, in a sense.
Jacobsen: Right — whether people want to say “intersectionality” or “cross-section” or just “relating ideas,” the principle remains the same. If someone has a problem with the word, use a different word. All right, what would you like to plug?
Núñez: I would say the focus for us right now — for the Peruvian Association of Atheists — is on secularism. Right now, achieving a truly secular state is practically impossible. But we must think of the future by taking small steps on a constant basis.
We are launching a documentary about secularism in Peru in a few days. It will cover almost everything—the historical background, current issues, and future challenges.
It is critical for people to understand the real dangers of not having a secular state and to recognize how the church, allied with the government, abuses its privileges. That is the primary focus for us right now. I want to put a strong emphasis on it.
Jacobsen: That reminds me of the Romanian humanist Remus Cernea. He ran for public office—for Parliament and even for President—and became a serious obstacle to those trying to violate church-state separation.
He resisted efforts to give public lands to churches and challenged Christian dominance in over 90% of religious society. Peru, as far as I know, is similarly highly religious. Could Peruvian atheists, humanists, or even transhumanists run for office and take up that fight?
Núñez: We had some allies in Congress a few years ago. We probably have one or two legislators today who are on our side. — but that is almost nothing out of 130 members.
For example, one of our allies promised to pass a constitutional amendment declaring Peru a secular state. Right now, the Constitution only vaguely says that Peru recognizes the “importance” of the Catholic Church in its history. It does not separate church and state.
But passing that amendment was impossible because of Congress’s structure — too much corruption and entrenched interests. One or two people alone cannot fight against a mafia-like structure. So, for now, we have almost no chance.
We are coordinating with different secular groups—like feminist associations and progressive Christian denominations that also want a secular state—but the consensus is that we cannot make real progress until the government changes. We may have to wait until after the mid-2026 elections.
Jacobsen: Fair enough. Adrián, thank you as always.
Núñez: Cool, yes. Excellent. Thank you.
Jacobsen: Thank you. Bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/04/27
Humanists International in Denmark
Humanists International hosted its 2023 combined World Congress and General Assembly in Copenhagen, Denmark, at the Scandic Copenhagen in early August. It was the first World Congress in almost a decade. A large gathering of hundreds of leaders within the humanist movement. At one point in the General Assembly, a proposal was made for a paper to make a specific statement on the war in Ukraine. A significant reference in the debate – highly respectful, by the way – between delegates from different countries’ Freethought organizations was the previous resolution accepted as a policy of Humanists International with Russia’s early full-scale invasion of Ukraine: February 24, 2022. The main point of contention was whether or not a new policy on the Russo-Ukrainian war was necessary because one existed from June 2022. The new one did not pass. The point of this article is both the acceptance or lack of the resolution and the debate and the previous policy emphasizing an update. A summary of the policy and its related contents will be provided.
Humanists International on the Russo-Ukrainian War
In a binational wartime scenario, it is an intriguing and subtle idea regarding wartime circumstances and rapid changes – say half a year to two years. The 2022 resolution, now policy, is entitled “Position Statement on Russian invasion of Ukraine.” The policy states:
Humanists International unequivocally condemns the unprovoked and illegal invasion by Russia of Ukraine, which has caused an escalating humanitarian crisis, gross and systematic human rights abuses on a massive scale, and has led to apparent war crimes in some areas.
Russian actions constitute a clear violation of the UN Charter and international law, including human rights law.
Such violations are clearly facilitated and sustained by the oppressive human rights climate in the Russian Federation itself; the severe restrictions on free expression, the widespread propagation of disinformation, the repression of civil society, and the intimidation, censoring and criminalisation of journalists all contribute to the Russian government being able to wage a war of aggression without accountability at home.
Humanists International welcomes the suspension of Russia’s membership of the UN Human Rights Council.
Humanists International urges the Russian Federation to cease all hostilities and to immediately and unconditionally withdraw its troops from Ukraine (in line with the United Nation [sic] Resolution A/ES-11/L).
Humanists International calls on all its Members to urge their own governments to oppose the actions of the Russian Federation, which in their motivations and their consequences, stand directly opposed to all humanist aspirations.
The policy – or “position statement” – of Humanists International opens with an unequivocal stance against the invasion, defining the invasion as both “unprovoked” and “illegal” as well as a violation of the UN Charter and international law “including human rights law.” The argument in the policy proposes a line from the conditions or the “oppressive human rights climate” within the Russian Federation to the “clearly facilitated and sustained” violations above from the Russian Federation’s invasion of Ukraine.
A proverbial laundry list is given to substantiate this argument about the Russian Federation. “Position Statement on Russian invasion of Ukraine” states, “…the severe restrictions on free expression, the widespread propagation of disinformation, the repression of civil society, and the intimidation, censoring and criminalisation of journalists all contribute to the Russian government being able to wage a war of aggression without accountability at home.”
Humanists International “welcomed” the suspension of the Russian Federation’s UN Human Rights Council membership. The language became more active rather than merely affirmative, stipulating to “cease all hostilities and to immediately and unconditionally withdraw its troops from Ukraine (in line with the United Nation Resolution A/ES-11/L).” We will return to this UN resolution and clarify it. Humanists International called for their governments to oppose the Russian Federation, which restricted its unlawful actions. The reasoning behind these more active statements was the ‘opposition to all humanist aspirations based on the motivations and consequences’ of the strategic military aggressive actions of the Russian Federation against Ukraine.
The policy statement has strengths in its breadth on a well-defined subject matter, a particular conflict. It takes a definitive position. While the weaknesses may show with time, as the war progresses, newer war updates and human rights contexts may need explicit statements to refine such a position statement. This is most clearly represented in the UN resolution mentioned in the policy. That is the emphasis for me, as this was the most important takeaway from the debate between highly qualified and intelligent humanist leaders gathered in one place.
I have several questions. We can find some answers during formal investigation and clarification of the UN resolution and the policy of Humanists International. Firstly, do we reference particular conflicts at a regular clip? Because the concept has been broached with at least one conflict. Secondly, do we make the content perennial rather than seasonal, e.g., all wars, every war of a specific kind, a single war with a precise start date, and so on? Thirdly, when referencing relevant international rights bodies and associated documents, should these be open for minor edits to include newly adopted resolutions as conflicts continue instead of a proliferation of new resolutions after new resolutions to be considered as new policies as almost happened in 2023 in Copenhagen?
A/ES-11/L and A/ES-11/1
These are relevant questions. However, we must cover the A/ES-11/L resolution referenced in “Position Statement on Russian invasion of Ukraine.” The “A” stands for documents issued by the General Assembly. The “ES” indicates an Emergency Special Session convened to address urgent matters. “ES-11” refers to the 11th Emergency Special Session of the General Assembly. “L” indicates the document is a draft resolution or a decision to be considered by the General Assembly. Thus, Humanists International, perhaps working with the limited information at the time or oversight of the original proposers of the resolution “Position Statement on Russian invasion of Ukraine,” posted a draft resolution and not a resolution of the United Nations in its statements, its – Humanists International’s – resolution becoming an eventual policy.
United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/1 would have been better. Especially given that the 2022 General Assembly of Humanists International was held June 3 to 5 in 2022, several months after the draft resolution, A/ES-11/L, became an actual resolution, A/ES-11/1, on March 2, 2022. A recommendation would be an amendment to this Humanists International policy – “Position Statement on Russian invasion of Ukraine” – to reference full resolutions and not draft resolutions in its policies. Moving from a draft resolution to a resolution means the draft resolution went through a main committee of the UN. A single-letter change in the policy of Humanists International may be warranted to improve the efficacy of the ethical and relevant resolution supportive of international humanist values.
United Nations General Assembly Resolution ES-11/1 was adopted through the 11th emergency special session. The purpose was to condemn the Russian invasion of Ukrainian territory and simultaneously declare the need to withdraw Russian forces from Ukraine and reverse the Russian Federation’s decision to recognize Donetsk and Luhansk as self-declared republics. That is powerful and arose in two general assemblies of Humanists International, underlining its importance in the resolution, “Position Statement on Russian Invasion of Ukraine” (2022). Intriguingly, and I was not present at the General Assembly of Humanists International in 2022 to make a qualitative commentary, the lattermost purpose of Resolution ES-11/1 was unincorporated, i.e., reversal of the recognition of Donetsk and Luhansk as self-declared republics. This could be a time limit in the General Assembly. It could be minutiae orthogonal to the central intent to pass a resolution as a new policy. Regardless, that is something for the record. When analyzed, A/ES-11/L and A/ES-11/1 appear identical, differing only in force of implication.
The Global Consensus on Russian Aggression and Resolution ES-11/2
The General Assembly and World Congress in August of 2023 was about 17 months after the instigation of the full-scale invasion of Ukraine by the Russian Federation. Of those who voted against it, only 5 Member States did so: Belarus, Eritrea, North Korea, Russia, and Syria. The UN record was clear on the global consensus on the aggression against Ukraine by Russia: 141 voted for the resolution, five against, 35 abstained, and 12 absented themselves. In other words, the vast majority of the Member States of the United Nations condemned the aggression of the Russian Federation against Ukraine. By passing this resolution based on Resolution ES-11/1, the Members and Associate Members of Humanists International fell in line with the overwhelming international consensus in condemning the Russian Federation’s, under the leadership of President Vladimir Putin, invasion of Ukraine with the demand for complete withdrawal. As there was a reconvening on March 24, 2022, to reiterate the support of Resolution ES-11/1 in Resolution ES-11/2, Humanists International’s policy would fit with Resolution ES-11/2, too.
Bearing in mind, the entire 11th special session followed the February 24, 2022, attacks by the Russian Federation and then a draft resolution was put forward and vetoed by the Security Council. This emergency session became necessary. When a permanent member vetoes actions in the Security Council, and it – the Security Council – is deemed to have failed in its role, then a special session is called; that is what happened when the Russian Federation invaded Ukraine on February 24, 2022. A draft resolution calling for the withdrawal of troops was vetoed. Thus, a special emergency session was called. So, a special emergency session is an unscheduled meeting in the UN General Assembly to focus on an urgent and particular situation for maintaining international peace and security when the UN Security Council fails in its ability to act based on a veto by a permanent member. This mechanism was formulated in the United for Peace resolution as a fallback for international security and peace. The adoption of Resolution ES-11/2 was a recognition of the continuance of the invasion of Ukraine by the Russian Federation.
The Documentary References of A/ES-11/1
As a slight aside, A/ES-11/L.1 included the following countries:
Afghanistan, Albania, Andorra, Antigua and Barbuda, Argentina, Australia, Austria, Bahamas, Belgium, Belize, Bosnia and Herzegovina, Botswana, Bulgaria, Canada, Chile, Colombia, Costa Rica, Croatia, Cyprus, Czechia, Democratic Republic of the Congo, Denmark, Dominican Republic, Ecuador, Estonia, Fiji, Finland, France, Gambia, Georgia, Germany, Ghana, Greece, Grenada, Guatemala, Guyana, Haiti, Hungary, Iceland, Indonesia, Ireland, Israel, Italy, Jamaica, Japan, Kiribati, Kuwait, Latvia, Liberia, Liechtenstein, Lithuania, Luxembourg, Malawi, Malta, Marshall Islands, Micronesia (Federated States of), Monaco, Montenegro, Myanmar, Netherlands, New Zealand, Niger, North Macedonia, Norway, Palau, Panama, Papua New Guinea, Paraguay, Peru, Poland, Portugal, Qatar, Republic of Korea, Republic of Moldova, Romania, Saint Kitts and Nevis, Samoa, San Marino, Singapore, Slovakia, Slovenia, Spain, Suriname, Sweden, Switzerland, Timor-Leste, Tonga, Trinidad and Tobago, Turkey, Tuvalu, Ukraine, United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland, United States of America and Uruguay.
A/ES-11/L.1/Add.1 – a supplement to A/ES-11/L.1 – added Barbados and Cambodia. Now, A/ES-11/1, the formal resolution, includes references to S/2014/136 and A/ES-11/L.1, A/ES-11/L.1/Add.1, Article 2 of the Charter of the United Nations, Security Council resolution 2623 (2022), document S/Agenda/8979, General Assembly resolution 377 A (V), resolution 2625 (XXV), resolution 3314 (XXIX), the Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, the Memorandum on Security Assurances in Connection with Ukraine’s Accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (Budapest Memorandum), the Declaration on Friendly Relations, the Minsk agreements (Protocol and II), and the Geneva Conventions of 1949 and Additional Protocol I thereto of 1977. These will be covered in order.
Contextualization of A/ES-11/1 References
S/2014/136 is a “Letter dated 28 February 2014 from the Permanent Representative of Ukraine to the United Nations addressed to the President of the Security Council.” It states:
Due to the deterioration of the situation in the Autonomous Republic of the Crimea, Ukraine, which threatens the territorial integrity of Ukraine, and upon the relevant instruction of my Government, I have the honour to request an urgent meeting of the Security Council in accordance with Articles 34 and 35 of the Charter of the United Nations.
I also have the honour to request that, in accordance with the relevant provisions of the Charter and rule 37 of the provisional rules of procedure of the Security Council, a representative of the Government of Ukraine be allowed to participate in the meeting and to make a statement.
(Signed) Yuriy Sergeyev Ambassador Permanent Representative
The “Honour” for Sergeyev is a formal declaration for a severe context of human rights abuse. These abuses only exacerbated into the present moment.
A/ES-11/L.1 was the draft document. The draft resolution referenced in the policy is “Position Statement on Russian invasion of Ukraine” by Humanists International in 2022.
A/ES-11/L.1/Add.1 was a supplement or an addition to the draft resolution by adding two other countries, as referenced before, Barbados and Cambodia.
Article 2 of the Charter of the United Nations speaks to the idea of the sovereignty of all Member States, fulfillment of obligations, peaceful settlement of disputes, non-use of force, assistance to the United Nations, and non-intervention in domestic affairs. In total, it states:
Article 2
The Organization and its Members, in pursuit of the Purposes stated in Article 1, shall act in accordance with the following Principles.
- The Organization is based on the principle of the sovereign equality of all its Members.
- All Members, in order to ensure to all of them the rights and benefits resulting from membership, shall fulfill in good faith the obligations assumed by them in accordance with the present Charter.
- All Members shall settle their international disputes by peaceful means in such a manner that international peace and security, and justice, are not endangered.
- All Members shall refrain in their international relations from the threat or use of force against the territorial integrity or political independence of any state, or in any other manner inconsistent with the Purposes of the United Nations.
- All Members shall give the United Nations every assistance in any action it takes in accordance with the present Charter, and shall refrain from giving assistance to any state against which the United Nations is taking preventive or enforcement action.
- The Organization shall ensure that states which are not Members of the United Nations act in accordance with these Principles so far as may be necessary for the maintenance of international peace and security.
- Nothing contained in the present Charter shall authorize the United Nations to intervene in matters which are essentially within the domestic jurisdiction of any state or shall require the Members to submit such matters to settlement under the present Charter; but this principle shall not prejudice the application of enforcement measures under Chapter Vll.
Security Council resolution 2623 (2022) was the call for the eleventh emergency special session of the United Nations to convene on the Russian full-scale invasion of Ukraine. Albania and the United States introduced the resolution. It was adopted on February 27, 2022.
Document S/Agenda/8979 was the document for examination within the eleventh emergency special session of the United Nations. This document referenced S/2014/136, namely the letter from Sergeyev.
General Assembly resolution 377 A (V), also known as “Uniting for Peace,” speaks to the failures of the Security Council on a contingent basis. If unanimity does not exist between the five permanent members of the UN Security Council while with a failure to enact international peace and security, then the UN General Assembly will consider and make recommendations to UN members for collective measures for the maintenance of international peace and security. This becomes relevant in the Russian full-scale invasion of Ukraine.
Resolution 2625 (XXV), or the “The Declaration on Principles of International Law concerning Friendly Relations and Co-operation among States,” states a comprehensive stipulation on the principle of self-determination.
Resolution 3314 (XXIX) was adopted in 1974. It provides a comprehensive definition of aggression. This includes specific acts like invasion, attack, and military occupation. It assigns the primary responsibility to the UN Security Council to determine acts of aggression and take necessary measures.
The Final Act of the Conference on Security and Cooperation in Europe, or the Helsinki Accords, was signed in 1975. The basis was an easing of Cold War tensions. The Helsinki Accords gave an international cooperation framework on economic and scientific cooperation, human rights, and security. The Accords helped legitimize the post-World War II borders of European nations with more respect for human rights and Eastern Bloc freedoms.
The Memorandum on Security Assurances in Connection with Ukraine’s Accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (Budapest Memorandum) was significant in Ukraine’s accession to the Treaty on the Non-Proliferation of Nuclear Weapons (NPT). Ukraine relinquished its nuclear weapons. It was the third largest in the world at the time. Ukraine, acceding to the NPT, became a non-nuclear weapon state. The Russian Federation, the United Kingdom, and the United States of America provided assurances of security and respect for Ukraine’s sovereignty, including borders and refraining from using threats or force. The post-Soviet States, due to this, did some denuclearization.
The Declaration on Friendly Relations is the newer and more used UN General Assembly Resolution 2625 (XXV)name. Any reference to The Declaration on Friendly Relationsrefers to Resolution 2625 (XXV).
The Minsk agreements references the Minsk Protocol from September 2014 and the Minsk II Agreement from February 2015. Minsk Protocol was signed by the DPR (Donetsk People’s Republic), LPR (Luhansk People’s Republic), Ukraine, Russia, and the Organization for Security and Co-operation in Europe (OSCE). The goal was to de-escalate: get a ceasefire, withdraw troops, and establish a Ukrainian-Russian border security zone. The Minsk II Agreement followed this protocol with the participation of France and Germany with an outline for a ceasefire, local elections of Donetsk and Luhansk, constitutional reforms, and the withdrawal of heavy weapons. On February 22, 2022, Russian Federation President Vladimir Putin declared the Minsk agreements as non-existent, followed by the full-scale invasion on February 24, 2022.
The Geneva Conventions of 1949 and Additional Protocol I thereto of 1977 are four treaties for international legal standards for humanitarian treatment in war. The foci are civilians, war prisoners, and sick and wounded soldiers. Additional Protocol I of 1977 expands to civilian safeguarding and regulation of conduct hostilities to minimize destruction and suffering.
The Conclusion of Humanists International General Assembly and World Congress 2023
A/ES-11/1‘s focus is the humanitarian and refugee crisis created by the Russian Federation’s aggression under President Vladimir Putin, with an emphasis on the importance of Ukraine as a grain and agricultural exporter internationally. This sits “Position Statement on Russian invasion of Ukraine” referencing A/ES-11/L within United Nations norms, humanitarian efforts, humanist values. The global influence and focus of Humanists International in its policy and the democratic debate and discussion period show the practical application of global humanism in a context of international conflagration and the need for diplomatic solidarity and humanitarian solutions. Even though the war between the Russian Federation and Ukraine continues, these documents provide an international response and framework for dealing with the Russo-Ukrainian war. United Nations diplomacy mirrors much of the humanist ethos exemplified in Humanists International. The respectful debate and discourse on the new resolution on the Russo-Ukrainian war in the General Assembly 2023 of Humanists International provided a window into humanist values across cultures.
This leads to some of the questions internally posed: Do we reference particular conflicts at a regular clip? Do we try to make the content perennial rather than seasonal, e.g., all wars, every war of a specific kind, a single war with a precise start date, and so on? When referencing relevant international rights bodies and associated documents, should these be open for minor edits to include newly adopted resolutions as conflicts continue instead of a proliferation of new resolutions after new resolutions to be considered as new policies, as it almost happened in Copenhagen in 2023? I have yet to learn the first, but I plan to evaluate all Humanists International policies now. Second, this policy and the eventualities of decline or rejection of the new policy add to the “Position Statement on the Russian invasion of Ukraine.” We seem to strike a balance, based on the limited available evidence, and being present at the debate in Copenhagen, of a single war and then leaving the emphasis perennial on this war since the war is incomplete or until all sides have resolved combat in the war and the withdrawal all troops, etc. Third, I argue for a change in bylaws, if not already present, for a change in resolutions already accepted as policies based on updates to single wars. I would also argue for, at least, a double resolution year with one presented against all forms of war based on humanist values. War may be a human universal. However, we can stipulate a striving for a world without wars and specific ones dedicated to the condemnation of it. Our humanist values demand it; our actions showed the possibilities to me.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/04/23
Roslyn Mould was Secretary and Chair of the International Humanist and Ethical Youth Organization (IHEYO) now Young Humanists International’s African Working Group from 2014 to 2019 and a Board Member for Humanists International from 2019 to 2023. She was a member of the Humanist Association of Ghana since it was founded in 2012 and held several positions, including President of the group from 2015 to 2019. She is the Coordinator for the West African Humanist Network, an Advisory Board member of the FoRB Leadership Network (UK), a Board member for LGBT+ Rights Ghana, and President of Accra Atheists. She holds a bachelor’s degree in Linguistics and Modern Languages. She is currently the First African Vice President of Humanists International.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Roslyn Mould, the Vice President of Humanists International, and the President and Founder of Accra Atheists. We will discuss a topic that is very popular among atheists, Humanists, and activists in their campaigns: billboards. I am not sure why this has become a trend, but when these billboards go up, people seem to feel very proud of them.
The Canadians have had their own, and the Americans have put up several, depending on the group. What inspired this initiative? Who came up with the original idea? Who is the founder?
Roslyn Mould: That would be me. It was sometime in 2019, though I do not remember exactly where the idea originated. I was thinking about how we could promote humanism more effectively. In Ghana, especially regarding religion, any major event—whether church-related, entertainment, academics or sports—is advertised on billboards. If an international event is happening, everyone knows about it because it is prominently displayed.
It is not just on television; it is on billboards. Seeing this, I realized that although humanism is recognized in over 100 countries, many people still do not know about it. We keep discussing how little awareness there is, yet, I realized that when we hold major events like General Assemblies and the World Humanist Congress events of Humanists International, not a single person outside our circle of participants and invited guests seemed to know about it. Nobody was aware we were even there.
After these events, it always feels like we preach to the choir. We hold discussions, but they remain internal, with little external outreach. So, who exactly are we reaching if we claim to be promoting humanism? That was the question that came to mind.
Why not use billboards to spread the word? It is one of the easiest ways to let people know that a community exists. It seemed like a natural step forward.
Anyway, I felt it was time to put the message out there—not only to make our group more visible but also to normalize atheism. If we see billboards for all sorts of beliefs and causes, why not for humanism and atheism? People should know that atheism exists and that it is a valid worldview.
For the 1% of Ghana’s 32 million steadfastly non-religious citizens, this could be a way to let them know that a community exists for them, a place where they can meet like-minded individuals. That was the core of the idea.
Around the same time, the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF) discovered my work and invited me to interview on their radio show. Later, I met Dan Barker and Annie Laurie Gaylor in Iceland. The following year, they invited me onto their TV show.
During our discussions, they asked about my vision and the activities I was involved in. One of the things I mentioned was the billboard idea. They immediately expressed interest, saying they had done something similar and would love to support the initiative. I told them I would return to Ghana and assess the project’s feasibility. At the time, the Humanist Association of Ghana was not ready, and then COVID-19 happened, delaying everything.
So, that is basically how it came about. They did not hesitate to support the idea, but I wanted to ensure we knew exactly what we wanted to put on the billboard. We needed consensus on the message, a plan for implementing it, and an assessment of whether it would be effective before we could send an invoice and confirm their willingness to fund it.
Then, after everything happened with COVID-19, I was not getting much support from within Ghana. So when I started Accra Atheists almost five years later, I contacted them again to see if they were still interested. Once again, they did not hesitate.
Annie Laurie Gaylor and Dan Barker got back to me immediately, saying I should let them know the cost. I approached a few companies, and one of them provided a list of prices. I sent it to them, and they reviewed the options. They asked, “Which one do you want? I could hardly believe it.
Before I knew it, the organization had paid. We had the billboard. They even helped by providing a graphic designer from the US. After several weeks working on it with Peter Dankwa of the Humanist Association of Ghana, I finally found a professional here in Ghana and eventually, we got everything completed.
It is just incredible to see the billboard live in the city—the first atheist billboard in Africa’s history—and I cannot believe this actually happened. It is exciting.
Jacobsen: Please encourage others in Uganda, Malawi, Tanzania, South Africa, Zimbabwe, or Nigeria, etc., to launch their billboards as part of a region-wide campaign.
Mould: Yes, my vision was never just for Accra Atheists in Ghana. The goal was for others to follow suit.
It has only been a bit since the billboard went up, but we have already seen a lot of buzz and engagement on social media. We expect even more traction in the coming weeks; our numbers will grow. Then, we can conduct an impact analysis to assess what effect the billboard has had on our organization as an atheist community.
I hope to share this information with other African and international organizations, especially Humanists International. My ultimate vision is for every Humanists International member country to have a billboard.
We are active in over 60 countries, and if each of those countries had a Humanists International billboard, people would start recognizing us everywhere. Someone could say, “I saw one in London,” or “I was in Canada, and I saw one in Alberta or Toronto.” Then, another person might say, “Oh, I saw one in Paris,” humanism would soon become widely known. More people would learn about Humanists International, and the conversation would grow, inspiring others, increasing our membership, and helping people feel more comfortable coming out as atheists.
I know that was one of the things that helped me. Attending just one conference gave me the courage to come out—not just because I met Ghanaian atheists like myself but also because I met other African atheists. That alone was inspiring.
It is incredible how something small can escalate and expand into something bigger than I had originally envisioned. That is the idea. I also hope collaborations will happen.
For example, the Freedom From Religion Foundation (FFRF), based in Madison, Wisconsin, has sponsored an organization in Ghana, Africa. So, what is stopping Humanist Canada from supporting a group elsewhere in Africa, Asia, or Latin America? What is stopping Humanists UK, American Humanists, or American Atheists and other European groups from doing the same?
If we all had billboards in our respective countries—especially in places where we are a minority—it would significantly amplify our impact and help accomplish much of the work we aim to do.
Yes, you have to sit back and relax while people come to you rather than putting yourself out there and potentially putting yourself at risk. We are hoping that this happens, and I know it could cause an uproar because, eventually, religious organizations will feel threatened by the fact that people think it is acceptable to leave the church.
For the longest time, people have been convinced that atheism does not exist, that you cannot be an African and not believe in something. That belief is deeply ingrained. It is a very subtle but important point because I often hear, “Oh, you are an atheist? No, I do not think you are an atheist. I think you believe in something.” That is what people tell you, even when you clearly state that you do not believe.
Jacobsen: Well, you are being gaslit.
Mould: They try to conflate things and dismiss atheism entirely. That is why this billboard could go a long way in creating awareness—without putting people’s lives or livelihoods at risk by forcing them to expose themselves as atheists.
A billboard with a simple message and some images could let people know that a community exists. As you can see, we did not include a telephone number on the billboard—only social media handles. This allows us to control our social network, screen those who reach out to us, and ensure we feel safe before engaging with them.
Jacobsen: I want to add a point that is rarely discussed but is unique.
Mould: I am listening.
Jacobsen: One thing that I think is not talked about enough but is very unique is the African context. Not every country is the same, of course, but if you look at the work of Leo Igwe against witchcraft accusations and his advocacy for humanism, your work in advancing atheism in Ghana, or Mubarak Bala’s work as an ex-Muslim, there is a pattern.
If you compare this to Middle Eastern atheists, for example, they are mostly combating a single ideological system—Islam, in its various forms. In North America, atheists primarily push back against politicized Christianity, especially hardline Catholicism and evangelical movements.
But in Africa, the situation is very different. It is as if African Humanists are carrying the weight of three different ideological systems at once. It is like that old Greek myth of Atlas, who carries the world on his shoulders. African atheists and Humanists are simultaneously confronting:
Arab colonialist influence through Islam.
European colonialist influence through Christianity.
Traditional superstitions and indigenous beliefs existed before colonization and persist today.
It is an enormous challenge, and that is what makes the African case so unique. There, atheists are not just fighting against one ideological system—they are combating all three simultaneously.
Mould: Our approach can be effective even when considering blasphemy laws in various countries because it is not provocative. The billboard does not attack religious beliefs. Instead, it asks a simple question:
“Don’t believe in God? You are not alone.”
It simply communicates that a community already exists. This is different from the more militant or confrontational atheist billboards seen in some Western countries, where they often ridicule religion or directly challenge religious people. That kind of approach would not work here.
For example, a more aggressive message would provoke a strong backlash in Ghana. Our goal is to make people feel safe and welcome. We are not announcing that there is no God—we are simply saying that if you do not believe in God, you are welcome here.
This messaging also creates a buffer against those who might try to suppress us. Since we are not attacking any specific religion or belief system, it makes it harder for authorities or religious groups to justify clamping down on us. We are simply existing in our own space.
This strategy is also flexible. The billboard does not need to feature only people from one specific country. It can include faces from different regions, showing that atheism is not isolated to one place—it is a global movement.
We have Dr. Leo Igwe on the billboard. He is Nigerian, and he is already open about his atheism. So, for those who are open and willing to be on the billboard, there is no need to limit ourselves to just the people we know. We also do not need to blur faces or hide identities. It is a method of promoting humanism without putting one’s life at risk. That is how I see it, and that is why I believe it will help many people.
As the Coordinator for the West African Humanist Network, my dream has always been to expand beyond Ghana and Nigeria. I want to focus on other countries within West Africa where no Humanist groups currently exist. The goal is to find individuals and organizations interested in humanism. If they do not have an organization, we can help them establish one and introduce them to Humanists International so they can become official members.
That is the larger vision—eventually putting billboards up in each of the 16 West African countries. Hopefully, this will inspire more people. Harrison Mumia, President of Atheists in Kenya, has expressed great interest in doing the same in Kenya and also others in Nigeria and South Africa.
Jacobsen: Get him as much media exposure as possible. He is very, very good.
Mould: Yes, we are going to take full advantage of media attention. Whether the coverage is positive or negative, it is still visibility and publicity, and we welcome it. This is a historic milestone, and everyone involved in making this happen is incredibly excited.
Jacobsen: I also want to highlight an important point that you touched on. It is crucial to consider the regional and cultural context when planning activism. For example, in Nigeria, strategies differ depending on whether you are in the Muslim-majority North or the Christian-majority South. The challenges and approaches needed in each region are different.
Looking at global trends in atheism and humanism, we see that in the 2000s and 2010s, much of the focus was on militant and New Atheism, primarily in North America and parts of Western Europe. That strategy was relevant for its time. However, activism has to evolve with the times and must always be tailored to each region’s specific cultural and historical context.
Leadership is seasonal—leaders come and go. People make mistakes, movements shift, and priorities change. Many figures who led the North American wave of atheism have faded from influence, and new voices must step up. Movements must adapt as circumstances change. That is why strategic flexibility is critical. Activists need to choose approaches that are appropriate for their region and their time while also considering personal safety.
I like your idea of avoiding militant atheism in that context. The more confrontational approach often comes across as aggressive, like someone is trying to force others to abandon their beliefs. Even if that is not the intended message, that is how many religious people perceive it. The billboard strategy, however, takes a different approach. It acts as an invitation rather than an attack. It subtly encourages people to question their beliefs, making them curious rather than defensive.
Since we believe in freedom of religion and belief, we do not focus on attacking religious people. Instead, we are deeply aware of how many people live under coercion—whether through family pressure, cultural expectations, institutional barriers, or legal restrictions. Many individuals privately reject religion but feel trapped due to social and familial constraints.
The billboard sends a simple message: You are not alone. It reassures people that there is a community waiting for them.
Mould: There are very few safe spaces for atheists, especially in West Africa. For a long time, Humanist organizations have been very internal, which means that outsiders have no idea they even exist.
If your family hears that you are attending meetings with a Humanist group but does not know what humanism is, they will speculate. In many cases, they assume it is something mysterious or even dangerous. I have personally seen this happen—people are accused of being in a cult or part of some secret (occult) society. The ignorance surrounding humanism fuels fear and misinformation.
So, if we claim to promote humanism but have never had a billboard in Africa, then what have we really accomplished? Visibility matters. If we want people to take us seriously and understand who we are, we must make our presence known.
humanism should be visible at all times so that people know what it is. But right now, we constantly have to explain what humanism means. Because it is not widely recognized, even within the Humanist community, people come up with their own definitions of humanism.
This leads to debates: Are Humanists this? Are Humanists that? Some say Humanists are religious, and others say they are not religious. This confusion exists because there is so much mystery surrounding humanism.
But it should not be mysterious at all. It should be well-known and clearly defined. This is not just a challenge for Africa or Asia—it should be addressed globally.
If we organize Humanist events, people should know about them. There should be media coverage. humanism should become common knowledge so that when someone says, “I am a Humanist,” the response is, “Oh, really? You are one of those?” instead of, “What is that? What do you do?” We should not feel ashamed of being Humanists. There should be no hesitation or embarrassment.
Additionally, raising awareness about humanism makes fundraising easier. If people already understand humanism and what Humanist groups do, they can relate to the cause. However, it becomes difficult when we try to secure funding outside the Humanist community because people do not even know what humanism is or what Humanist groups do.
That is why visibility matters. There is also a reason why we explicitly named our group Accra Atheists—even though it is fundamentally a Humanist group. We wanted to make it unambiguous. We did not want people to misinterpret us as a religious or spiritual freethinking group.
No—we are a group for atheists and agnostics. It is as simple as that. Both atheism and humanism share a core principle: rejecting supernatural ideas. That is the defining factor. We should not sugarcoat it or beat around the bush.
humanism does not need to sound religious or be connected to religious traditions. It is not. We need to clearly communicate that message. People understand this within the Humanist community. But outside of it, humanism is too open to misinterpretation. It is time to end that confusion.
Jacobsen: Yes, I know you have previously commented that what is often called spiritual humanism is a poor interpretation of secular humanism, right?
Mould: Exactly.
Jacobsen: From a practical standpoint, when discussing humanism, we typically say humanism. However, for those reading this, if you ever encounter someone implying a form of spiritual humanism, it is important to emphasize secular humanism in that conversation. That way, they understand the distinction. But generally, we should say humanism—it is not complicated.
Mould: Yes, and even when we capitalize the H in humanism, it is supposed to imply secular humanism automatically. That should be the default understanding. We should not have to differentiate ourselves between different subcategories. If someone says they are a Humanist, people should automatically assume they are a secular Humanist—not something else.
That should be the mainstream definition, and any other interpretation should be considered fringe. This is exactly why we need to make humanism visible. Hence….. billboards!
Jacobsen: I agree.
Mould: Yes.
Jacobsen: So, for anyone interested in launching a billboard campaign, what is your three-step process for making it happen?
Mould: The first step is to find a funding source if you can’t afford one
The second step is accountability. You must provide transparency if an organization is willing to donate or sponsor the campaign. You should approach at least two or three advertising companies that can offer the service. Then, you need to justify why you select a particular company and the impact the billboard will have.
For example, the company we selected provided statistics on how many people would see the billboard daily and the impact it would generate. This data was crucial because we could pass it along to our donors to show them why this investment was worthwhile.
I was a bit nervous at first if any company would have been tolerant enough to accept to put it up but I am glad we found open-minded people in the advertising company we chose and also the professional Graphic designer who finished the design although they are all Christians.
The third step is to hire a proper graphic designer. The design should be modern, professional, and clear. It should communicate all the key ideas without cluttering the message.
If you overload a billboard with too much information, it becomes confusing and leaves room for misinterpretation.
For example, on our billboard, we clearly defined what our group is and the values it represents:
- Science
- Freethought
- Compassion
- humanism
- Ethics
- Human Rights
- Critical thinking
This makes it immediately clear what our group stands for.
We also wanted to ensure that people understood that Humanists are ethical, compassionate, rational, and freethinking individuals.
So, when designing a billboard, it is essential to include enough information to make your message clear but not so much that it becomes overwhelming or ambiguous.
Jacobsen: That sounds like a solid approach.
Mould: Yes.
Jacobsen: Awesome. Lovely talking to you again. Thank you.
Mould: Thank you. I appreciate it.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/04/22
David “Maheengun” Cook, an atheist and humanist from the Mississaugas of the Anishinaabe people, shares his life journey navigating Indigenous identity, secularism, and cultural heritage. Raised near Rice Lake, Ontario, he learned traditional teachings—like oral history, plant knowledge, and seasonal rhythms—from elders. Yet, he embraced atheism at 13, finding Christian doctrines unconvincing and later stepping away from formal Indigenous spirituality, such as pipe-carrying and Midewiwin ceremonies. Cook distinguishes between Indigeneity as a cultural-historical identity and Indigenous humanism, which he sees as increasingly conflated with spiritual beliefs incompatible with secular humanism’s reliance on reason and evidence. He critiques the romanticization of Indigenous knowledge systems, warning against overvaluing localized spiritual traditions as universal truth. Still, he values cultural respect, environmental ethics, and communal decision-making embedded in Anishinaabe life. While he sees overlap with secular humanism in compassion and ethical living, he insists on epistemological clarity: lived experience and reverence are not scientific knowledge. He emphasizes the importance of dialogue, mutual understanding, and intellectual honesty, challenging assumptions from Indigenous and non-Indigenous perspectives. Cook’s reflections underscore the complex interplay between cultural continuity and philosophical integrity in modern Indigenous life.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are joined by David Cook, also known by his Anishinaabe name, Maheengun, which means Timberwolf in the Anishinaabemowin language.
David will share his perspective on Indigenous identity, humanism, and atheism. He was raised near Rice Lake in southern Ontario, where Anishinaabe teachings influenced his formative years. He learned from elders about oral traditions, plant knowledge, and cultural practices rooted in the land and community. Despite this deep cultural foundation, Cook did not adopt theistic beliefs. He embraced atheism at the age of 13 after finding Christian teachings unconvincing.
His journey exemplifies the complex and often misunderstood relationship between Indigenous spirituality and humanist principles. Cook observed that traditional Anishinaabe worldviews emphasize spiritual relationships with the natural world, ancestors, and beings—but not in the form of hierarchical theism or deity worship. Over time, however, he has witnessed a shift in some Indigenous communities toward institutionalized or formalized spiritual practices, influenced in part by colonial impositions and revivalist movements. These shifts sometimes conflict with secular or humanist frameworks. In navigating this tension, Cook stepped away from ceremonial responsibilities, such as being a pipe carrier, to live more authentically within his philosophical values.
His experiences challenge the stereotype that Indigenous identity must be tied to religion or theism. They also highlight the diversity of beliefs and spiritual expressions among Indigenous peoples. Through these conversations, we will explore how Indigenous cultural heritage can intersect with secular humanist values, contributing to a broader discussion on Indigeneity and humanism. I approach this as a learner, open to where the dialogue leads. You never know unless you ask.
David, thank you very much for joining me today.
David “Maheengun” Cook: Thank you for inviting me.
Jacobsen: My first question is: Do you come from an Ojibwe, Odawa, Potawatomi, Algonquin, Mississauga, or Nipissing background?
Cook: My experiences come from Mississaugas, originally.
Jacobsen: That helps. For those who may not know—like myself—how are the various Anishinaabe peoples distinguished from one another? Is it primarily geographic, or is there more to it?
Cook: It is mainly geographic but also linguistic and historical. The Anishinaabe are a group of culturally related nations who speak dialects of the Anishinaabemowin language. The Ojibwe, or Chippewa, stretch across a wide area from Ontario to Minnesota and beyond. The Odawa traditionally lived near the Ottawa River Valley, and the Potawatomi were based around Georgian Bay and further south around Lake Michigan, though many were displaced. The Mississaugas settled primarily in southern Ontario. While they share cultural foundations, each group has distinct histories, migration stories, and regional practices.
Jacobsen: The Anishinaabe are often translated as “original people” or “spontaneous beings,” they are tied to “Mother Earth” and “spiritual emergence.” What does that name signify within the culture?
Cook: Anishinaabe is often translated as “original person” or “first person.” It reflects the belief that our people were created and have always been here—on what we call Turtle Island. In many oral traditions, there are creation stories, including that of Sky Woman, though this version is more prominent among the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois). Among the Anishinaabe, the tale of Nanaboozho is central—he is a cultural hero and teacher who helped shape the world. These stories reflect a worldview grounded in a relationship—with the land, the animals, the elements, and one another—not in dominion or hierarchical worship.
Specific to the Anishinaabe people, there’s a story of our ancestors—the Lenape (or Leni Lenape) from the East Coast—being our predecessors. The Anishinaabe people are said to have split off and migrated westward, following a sacred object known as the megis shell. It is a type of seashell. We followed its appearance and migrated to places where wild rice—manoomin—grew, ultimately reaching the Great Lakes and settling in areas like Minnesota, which marked the endpoint of this ancestral migration.
Anishinaabe is often translated as “original person” or “first person.” It reflects the belief that our people were created and have always been here—on what we call Turtle Island. In many oral traditions, there are creation stories, including that of Sky Woman, though this version is more prominent among the Haudenosaunee (Iroquois).
Jacobsen: What is the significance, within traditional practices, of things like birch bark, wild rice harvesting, and clan systems as part of the Anishinaabe worldview and social structure?
Cook: Good question. So, the teachings of the Seven Grandfathers instructed that our people should follow the megis shell, and we would stop where we found wild rice. As I mentioned, the Anishinaabemowin word is manoomin. Wild rice was—and still is—a staple food and ceremonial plant for the Anishinaabe. Its presence indicated where we were meant to settle.
Birch bark was—and remains—immensely important. It was used to build our traditional homes—wigwams, not tipis. Tipis are associated with Plains cultures, but our homes were dome-shaped structures covered in birch bark.
The Midewiwin society—the keepers of ancient and ceremonial knowledge—used birch bark scrolls to record teachings, medicines, songs, and instructions for building Mide lodges. These scrolls served as a traditional archive. Birch bark also had everyday uses: for containers, canoes, and art.
We also interacted extensively with other nations, including the Haudenosaunee Confederacy—the Mohawk, Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga, and Oneida. Later, the Tuscarora joined, forming the Six Nations. Through this contact—both peaceful and hostile—we came to share some elements like the agricultural trio called the Three Sisters: corn, beans, and squash. These came more from our interactions than from our ancestral practices.
Jacobsen: You mentioned conflict. What were the historical bases of some of these clashes between the Anishinaabe and the Haudenosaunee?
Cook: Primarily, it was about control of the Great Lakes region, especially trade routes. This was pre-European contact, so before 1497—when John Cabot explored parts of what is now Canada—and certainly before 1603, when Samuel de Champlain arrived. The Great Lakes were vital corridors of commerce, diplomacy, and warfare. A complex trade web stretched across the continent—copper from Lake Superior, shells from the coast, obsidian, tobacco, etc.
The Haudenosaunee traditionally occupied the south side of Lake Ontario, while the Anishinaabe, including the Potawatomi, Odawa, and Mississaugas, were on the north side. These three groups comprised the Council of the Three Fires, a longstanding alliance rooted in kinship and defence.
The conflicts intensified after Champlain allied with the Wendat (also called the Huron), who had accepted the Jesuit missionaries and their Christian teachings. The Jesuits introduced not only religion but also disease, which devastated many Indigenous communities. Champlain and his Wendat allies—including some Ojibwe—launched attacks on the Haudenosaunee south of the lake. That began a cycle of violence and displacement that lasted for centuries.
Jacobsen: That’s quite the historical sweep. Growing up, what was your sense—within your Indigenous community and in nearby non-Indigenous communities—of the mythologies or perceptions each had of the other?
Cook: That’s a rich topic. The mythologies held by each group—Indigenous or settler—about one another were often oversimplified or distorted. Indigenous communities saw settlers as disconnected from the land, lacking the spiritual and relational teachings that tie people to place. On the other hand, settlers often romanticized Indigenous people or reduced us to caricatures—either the “noble savage” or the “vanishing Indian.” Meanwhile, different Indigenous nations had their own stories and rivalries, often shaped by centuries of conflict, trade, and adaptation.
Jacobsen: Regarding social mythologies specifically, what kinds of stories or collective ideas did Indigenous communities have about surrounding non-Indigenous people, and vice versa? And I mean not religious mythologies like Christian beliefs in an intervening God or Indigenous cosmologies like the creation of Turtle Island, but more about the social perceptions communities held about one another. Also, are you speaking from personal experience growing up or from a more historical lens?
Cook: That’s a good question—and I think both apply. Historically, and in my experience, those perceptions have shifted significantly over time.
Going back to the early contact era—when Champlain was active in this region—you had the Wendat (also known as the Huron) accepting, or at least entertaining, Christian missionaries like the Jesuits. That affected how other nations, including the Haudenosaunee, viewed Wendat and the newcomers. But in those early days, there weren’t many non-Indigenous people in Ontario—just a few priests and fur traders—so social mythologies were formed based on limited interaction.
As colonization progressed—particularly during the expansion of Ontario’s colonization roads in the 19th century—Indigenous people in many areas were respected for their deep knowledge of the land, for trade, and for helping early settlers survive. My family has a cottage about an hour and a half north of here, and there’s a long history of cooperation between Indigenous communities and pioneers. There was absolute mutual respect, at least in some areas.
But then things shifted. Public perceptions began souring by the 1960s and 1970s, especially among non-Indigenous people. Many stereotypes took hold—things like alcoholism, laziness, or exemptions from taxation—which created resentment and suspicion. A lot of this was media-driven. People formed their opinions not from direct interaction with Indigenous people but from distorted narratives coming out of other regions or from sensationalized news.
I remember vividly the Oka Crisis in 1990. It was centred in Kanesatake and Akwesasne, Mohawk territories in Quebec, and had ripple effects across the country. Suddenly, many non-Indigenous Canadians—especially in Ontario and Quebec—developed very negative views of Indigenous people, even if they had never met one in their lives. It was a myth-building through fear and media framing.
But today, things are changing with the ongoing work of Truth and Reconciliation and the broader public access to accurate historical information. Conversations are more open. There’s greater willingness—among non-Indigenous people especially—to listen, learn, and reconsider those long-held social mythologies. Today’s understanding is more grounded in reality than it used to be.
I was working hard to raise awareness about something that deeply concerned me. An NDP Member of Parliament from Winnipeg introduced a private member’s bill that would have criminalized the denial of the residential school system.
Jacobsen: How did that go over?
Cook: Well, while I believe that residential schools were a horrific part of Canadian history—and that the intergenerational trauma they caused is still being felt today—I don’t think criminalizing denial helps truth and reconciliation. And it certainly doesn’t support the free speech rights of non-Indigenous Canadians.
I’ve had many conversations with people who didn’t believe in or understand the impacts of residential schools. I often wonder whether I could have had those conversations if a law had made such speech a felony. I’m relieved to say that the bill did not pass the first reading in the House of Commons.
Jacobsen: That’s good to hear. That’s a win for open discourse. These conversations will be exploratory, and while there will be common themes and throughlines, we’ll also encounter offshoots. That issue you raised—around free speech and truth-seeking—is critical. It resonates across different communities in Canada.
How do different communities, in your experience—Francophone, Anglophone, Indigenous, and others—view universal rights commonly claimed internationally, such as freedom of expression or speech, especially as they’re articulated in the U.S.? How are those rights viewed, upheld, or contested in public, private, or sacred spaces within these cultural contexts?
Cook: That’s a great question, but I am unlikely to answer comprehensively since I live in one small corner of southern Ontario. I can only speak to what I’ve seen locally.
But it’s interesting. One thing that stands out is how cultural shifts in Indigenous communities—both on reserves and among urban Indigenous populations—have been influenced by younger generations attending Indigenous Studies programs in colleges and universities. I’ve been involved for over 35 years in the Elders’ Conference at Trent University in Peterborough. The tone and focus of that gathering have changed dramatically over the decades.
Like the rest of North America, there is a widening political divide. On the right wing, there tends to be skepticism about what is seen as special rights or accommodations for Indigenous peoples—questions about responsibilities and accountability. On the left wing, particularly within academic environments, there’s often a tendency to avoid saying anything that could be construed as challenging the dominant narratives taught in Indigenous Studies courses.
You risk being accused of creating an “unsafe” environment; honestly, I find that term increasingly vague. It used to refer to a physical threat, but now it can mean someone holds a different opinion from you on campus—the redefinition of “unsafe” to include disagreement.
I’m rambling now, but my answer to your question is elsewhere.
Jacobsen: It’s like that old Billy Connolly joke about getting older—he says (and I’m paraphrasing here, Jacobsenizing it): when you’re young, someone comes into town and asks you for directions to the gas station. You confidently lift your arm, point with your finger, and say: “Go two streets north, take a left, then a right. You’ll be at Smith and Cook Avenue. The gas station’s right there. You’re good to go.”
“Thank you for that, sir. Have a good day.”
Then you get to middle age, and you just sort of wave vaguely with your arm—”Yeah, it’s over there, young man.”
And by the time you’re in your eighties, you’re lifting your leg and going, “Over there!” You know? It’s somewhere in that general direction.
Cook: [Laughing].
Jacobsen: Somewhere in that general direction—that’s precisely it. Now, a pattern in public discourse connects to what you’ve just described. When people speak in the terms you just used—thoughtfully but with nuance—they are sometimes misunderstood, either deliberately or inadvertently. That misunderstanding is then used as grounds to accuse them of dismissing Indigenous teachings or even of being belligerent toward those who describe themselves as feeling unsafe.
How do you feel when you hear someone attributing motives like that to things you genuinely believe? How are your views being mischaracterized—or, on the more benign side, how are they being misunderstood?
Cook: That’s a great question. I love to philosophize, so stand by… [Laughing]
You’ve captured the polarization well. Some people, yes, are intentionally provocative—they want to be misunderstood or create conflict. On the other hand, there’s a tendency to be hyper-vigilant—a kind of eagerness to pounce on any statement that might not align perfectly with what’s expected. They say it becomes a race to display our virtue or signal.
But the reality lies in the middle. And that’s where the real work of democracy and dialogue happens.
We think of democracy as voting for someone who disappears into a legislature to make decisions. But in truth, democracy is the conversation. It’s the dialogue we have as a society.
If you look at small Indigenous bands historically, decisions were made collectively: where to move, when to hunt, how to respond to challenges. That was real, participatory decision-making—consensus-based. As populations grew and governance became more complex, that model had to evolve. However, the essential ingredient remains: meaningful dialogue that defines the middle ground.
To bring this back to Indigenous roots, the Haudenosaunee Confederacy—the union of the Five (later Six) Nations—is often cited as one of the inspirations for American democracy. That system of deliberative councils and consensus-seeking is a powerful model.
Unfortunately, today, we’ve moved far from that. We’re at a point where people on opposite ends of the spectrum can no longer even speak to each other. Everyone sees the other as an enemy rather than someone with a different perspective.
You’re right. On both extremes, it’s not about understanding anymore—it’s about triggering a reaction or defending territory. But democracy cannot survive without conversation, and we lose a lot when we abandon the middle ground.
It’s about active listening. Listening so that you can hear someone and repeat what they just said to demonstrate understanding rather than interrupting to make your point. That’s missing from many conversations now.
I have a theory about that. When I worked for a vast Fortune 50 corporation, I had the honour of contributing to DARPANet, which was the predecessor to what we now call the Internet. I was on the front lines of Internet development in Canada and North America—working on IP addressing, how networks function, how computers talk, and so on.
Then, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, I worked on efforts related to the World Wide Web and how it could be opened for commercial use. The Web was envisioned as a beautiful, global network of connections—a web of shared knowledge, freely accessible and interactive.
But this Web has become a series of cocoons. People don’t hear each other anymore. Instead, they’re caught in echo chambers, where they only receive information reinforcing their beliefs.
Algorithmic polarization: The algorithms behind social media platforms now filter content so that you rarely encounter ideas that challenge your worldview. If you lean left, your feed is filled with progressive content. If you lean right, you get conservative content.
So, instead of a web connecting people and ideas, we’ve ended up with millions of isolated and insulating bubbles. People don’t even know that other perspectives exist anymore. They hear their thoughts reflected on them.
Jacobsen: That’s not off-topic—it’s a key part of this discussion. What people now call virtue signalling, for instance—it’s not a new phenomenon. We talk about it more explicitly now.
Looking at the last five to twenty-five years, you can see it evolve in public discourse. For example, on the left, wearing a rainbow lapel pin signals affiliation and values. On the right, someone might wear a Christian cross. Both are symbolic affirmations of identity and belief systems. It’s the same impulse, just expressed differently depending on the group.
When people talk about “wokeness,” it’s not fundamentally different from the conversations around identity politics we saw in the 1990s. Those earlier discussions were more implicit, while today’s are explicit—partly because of the digital tools you helped build: the Internet, social media, and open commentary platforms. Everything is exposed now; everything is analyzed or debated instantly.
So we’ve seen this explosion of neologisms—some serious, some silly—all part of a broader cultural shift toward explicit signalling. But returning to our core topic—Anishinaabe culture—we’ve been reflecting on Midewiwin, the Grand Medicine Society.
Cook: [Laughing] Sorry—I have an opinion on everything.
Jacobsen: No, that’s fine. That’s the point of this kind of dialogue—to explore thoughts that aren’t usually expressed inside the Beltway or in typical public discourse. And it’s also an opportunity to bring cultural memory and philosophical perspective into deeper public awareness.
We discussed the Ojibwe and some of the broader Anishinaabe identity. But what about the more spiritual or ceremonial aspects—the degrees of initiation, moral teachings, balance, healing, herbal medicine, medicine lodges, chanting, and drumming?
You carried the fight, so to speak. You lived with both the theoretical understanding and practical application of this worldview. How did traditional beliefs frame ideas like the world and the Creator? Would you say that worldview is monotheistic—or is that a result of Christian influence, shaping the image of an intervening Creator?
Cook: Again, I can only speak from personal experience—and it’s important to note that Indigenous cultures are oral traditions. So, everything gets passed down through storytelling, and every elder brings their knowledge, memory, and philosophy to their teaching.
The result is that the stories vary. No matter how much we respect the teachings or the history, there’s no such thing as a single, unchanging version. As I’ve gotten older—and now consider myself an elder—I’ve become acutely aware of how fragile memory can be and how much responsibility it takes to carry those stories forward.
When I was younger, the culture I was taught was not formalized. It was experiential—you learned by being there, by participating. There were seasonal rhythms—like telling stories in the winter, an established cultural practice—but the storytelling was light-hearted, even humorous. There wasn’t the solemnity I see today.
Over time, things have become much more formal. There’s now a strong emphasis on protocols, like clearly stating your name, your community of origin, and your clan and doing so in Anishinaabemowin (our language), even if that’s the only part of the language someone knows. There’s also the expectation to establish credibility—to show who your elders were, who taught you, and whether you are authorized to share what you’re about to say.
That wasn’t the case when I was younger. But now, the role of “Traditional Knowledge Keeper” is formalized and widely used, especially in academic settings and government relations. A big part of that came from the rise of Indigenous Studies programs at universities. Those programs needed structure, so they created protocols to ensure that only those with proper knowledge and cultural authority could teach or share stories.
I understand its intent—ensuring authenticity and preventing cultural misappropriation—but the formality has become quite rigid. It’s now common that, right after someone introduces themselves, they’ll light a smudge—often using a smudge bowl made from an abalone shell, even though abalone isn’t from this region. The same goes for sage, which is not traditional to all territories but is now widely used.
So, there’s been much cross-pollination—ceremonial blending—between First Nations across Canada’s diverse regions. Historically, hundreds, if not thousands, of distinct communities, nations, and cultural protocols—from coast to coast. But now, there’s a kind of pan-Indigenous ceremonial standardization, where some practices have become symbolic shorthand for Indigenous identity, regardless of their geographic origin.
And over time, there’s been much blending—so much so that if you attend a powwow anywhere in North America, you’ll likely see women dancing in traditional jingle dresses. It’s a regalia adorned with 365 cones, often made from the lids of snuff cans. Each cone represents a day of the year and is specifically sewn onto the dress. The sound they produce during the dance is part of the healing tradition.
It’s become that rigid, formalized—and you can now see consistently from Mexico to the northern territories. Well, perhaps less so among Inuit communities, but certainly within a broad swath of First Nations and Native American cultures, you see this kind of cultural homogenization.
Jacobsen: So, let me ask you this. What’s your take on Canada’s earlier cultural flashpoints—the Oka Crisis? How do you see those moments now?
Cook: Oh, wow. The Oka Crisis (1990) was a defining moment for Canada, especially for people in Ontario and Quebec—the so-called centre of Canada. It was the first time that many Canadians had to confront the reality that there were unresolved land disputes, some going back centuries, and that Indigenous people were not a relic of the past. They were present, organized, and resisting.
It forced the conversation into the open and made people aware that fundamentally different worldviews were at play—particularly sovereignty, land stewardship, and historical injustice. But like most big cultural moments, it also became deeply polarizing.
Some people were severely injured—people throwing stones—and others were offering help and support. A similar situation happened here in Ontario with the Ipperwash Provincial Park standoff (1995) when the Premier sent in the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP). They shot and killed Dudley George, a young man who was not posing any physical threat. It became an embarrassment and a tragedy.
Events like Ipperwash and Oka truly set the stage for the emergence of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. They pushed the public to realize that something needed to change—that Canadians needed to become more aware of Indigenous history, the longstanding injustices, and the ongoing consequences Indigenous communities still face as a result. They were defining moments—significant events.
Jacobsen: Now, shifting a bit more toward the central focus of this project—when we talk about people who reject supernaturalism or theistic interpretations of belief within Indigenous traditions, there’s often a social cost.
In European, Anglo, and Franco-North American cultures, people who reject religion or belief in God are often met with a wide range of slurs—“devil-worshipper,” “possessed,” “demonic,” “immoral,” “untrustworthy,” “disgusting,” and so on. These labels don’t function as intellectual arguments—they’re emotional reactions. They show up in polling and population studies as deeply ingrained sentiments toward atheists and humanists.
This prejudice has real economic, social, familial, and professional consequences. Take the example of a woman in a fundamentalist Christian community working at a university with doctrinal covenants. If she gets divorced, that can be considered grounds for dismissal or social shunning. The emotional pain can be deep—and neuroscience tells us that social rejection activates the same brain regions as physical pain.
Now, within a Canadian Indigenous context, particularly in Anishinaabe communities, are there slurs or informal labels used to describe those who reject traditional beliefs—especially those from Indigenous backgrounds themselves? And how do those social dynamics unfold?
Cook: Great question. The only epithet I can remember growing up was for Native people who were seen as “not Native enough.” In other words, if someone had adopted more mainstream, settler characteristics, they’d be called an “apple”—red on the outside, white on the inside. That’s the only derogatory term I ever heard used within the community.
In Anishinaabemowin, there are some terms for non-Native people that can carry a derogatory tone depending on how they’re used. I remember one elder in particular who always referred to white people with a specific term—though I haven’t heard it used in a long time. I don’t know the exact linguistic root of the word, but it was always spoken with a tone of contempt, so it carried weight.
But to your main point—no, I haven’t heard specific slurs or labels used against Indigenous atheists or secular people within the community. You’re right, though: in broader society, people who reject supernatural beliefs get hit with negative assumptions. But I haven’t observed a structured vocabulary around that kind of rejection within Anishinaabe communities, at least not in my experience.
Over time, things have become much more formal. There’s now a strong emphasis on protocols, like clearly stating your name, your community of origin, and your clan and doing so in Anishinaabemowin (our language), even if that’s the only part of the language someone knows. There’s also the expectation to establish credibility—to show who your elders were, who taught you, and whether you are authorized to share what you’re about to say.
That wasn’t the case when I was younger. But now, the role of “Traditional Knowledge Keeper” is formalized and widely used, especially in academic settings and government relations. A big part of that came from the rise of Indigenous Studies programs at universities. Those programs needed structure, so they created protocols to ensure that only those with proper knowledge and cultural authority could teach or share stories.
Jacobsen: I mean, if you’re only hearing epithets in English, as opposed to, say, Finnish or Arabic or Anishinaabemowin, does that in itself serve as a kind of psycho-cultural commentary on the use—or limitation—of slurs?
Cook: That’s a good question. I don’t know. There could be all kinds of factors contributing to that dynamic. It might also be that not everyone speaks Anishinaabemowin fluently enough anymore to use slurs in the original language—or even to recognize them if they’re used. So, if those sentiments are expressed, they’re more likely to appear in English, where they’re understood. It’s tough to say what the root of that would be.
Jacobsen: If there’s not much in terms of verbal slurs, then what about other forms of social consequences? Not necessarily professional impacts—but gossip, social standing, and social status. That’s a big part of any culture.
Cook: Absolutely. I think there are all kinds of social consequences for not following what I’d call the “received wisdom”—the currently accepted norms or teachings within the community.
Before we started recording, I told you about a social worker I know who worked for Native Family Services. He’s about fifteen years younger than I am. He grew up on a reserve, and although he identifies as Indigenous, he eventually felt forced to leave his position.
He struggled with expecting every meeting to begin with a smudging ceremony, prayers, sage, abalone shells, eagle feathers, etc. He was told he’d be required to take turns leading the ceremonies—to say the opening prayer, light the smudge, and perform those protocols.
When he said he didn’t want to participate, the response was unsupportive. He wasn’t given space to opt-out. He was made to feel very uncomfortable—like he wasn’t “Native enough.” So yes, even in the workplace, there are real consequences for not conforming to certain spiritual expectations.
Jacobsen: That’s significant.
Cook: It is. Because so much of what is now called “Native culture” is deeply tied to spiritual practice. And I use the word spiritual here more in the religious sense—because when something is no longer optional when it’s mandatory, it stops being about personal spirituality and becomes more like a codified belief system—almost like organized religion.
Jacobsen: That distinction makes much sense.
Cook: For example, when I was growing up, women were not allowed to sit at the big ceremonial drums. There were strict gender roles embedded in the ceremonial life. There was much pushback from the 1960s through the 1980s, especially as broader society moved toward women’s equality. But in many Indigenous communities, especially in ceremonial contexts, women were still restricted from participating fully—particularly if they were on what we call their moon time.
During their menstrual cycle, during their moon, women were often expected to abstain from participating in ceremonies. That was the tradition. But that tradition has also been challenged, especially by younger generations. Still, even today, there are ongoing tensions around these issues. So again, when spiritual practices become mandatory, especially in public or professional settings, they stop being spiritual personally and start resembling an institutional system of belief.
So, during their menstrual cycle, women were not allowed to participate in certain aspects of ceremonial life—sometimes even to the extent of not being in the presence of men during specific spiritual events. There are separate ceremonies for men and women. I have many teachings I’m not permitted to share with women, and my wife has teachings she’s not allowed to share with men.
There are still very distinct roles for men and women. For example, women are the carriers of water at ceremonies. Only women are permitted to touch the water and prepare it. Women traditionally gather the so-called “sacred medicines”—cedar, sage, sweetgrass, and tobacco.
Then, there are specific ceremonial medicines—some used only by women and others only by men. I have to be careful here not to share teachings that could get me into trouble, but yes, there are medicines restricted by gender.
During menstruation, a woman on her moon cannot participate in ceremonies and is expected to avoid ceremonial grounds. At full moon, women’s ceremonies celebrate the menstruation cycle, while men hold their parallel gatherings—often involving cleaning ceremonial pipes, for example. These dual ceremonies happen every full moon.
It’s challenging to separate cultural from spiritual or religious aspects because the two are deeply entwined in Indigenous traditions. But what’s clear is that gender plays a significant role in determining who can do what within ceremonial life.
And if you don’t believe in those teachings—if you’re an Indigenous atheist or secular humanist—there are social ramifications. Questions arise: Can you participate in ceremonies? Can you be a dancer at a powwow?
Let me give an example. I helped create a Native cultural community centre here in the Durham region of Ontario, where I live. We didn’t have any services for what we used to call urban Indians—people living off-reserve in urban areas. So we created this centre to offer programming and support. I was elected chief of that organization’s council.
Now, I used to get into trouble constantly. In Anishinaabe culture, people dance clockwise around the drum at powwows. But here, we also have Haudenosaunee people—alongside Inuit and other First Nations folks—who have different ceremonial expectations. For example, some Haudenosaunee teachings say you must dance counterclockwise around the drum.
So, what do you do in an urban setting where one group deeply believes in dancing clockwise and another holds just as strongly to dancing counterclockwise?
That’s a powerful image—and pretty funny. It is a sort of ceremonial traffic jam. It shows how diverse Indigenous cultures are, even among just the First Nations, not to mention Métis and Inuit peoples. It also highlights the challenge of creating inclusive ceremonial spaces in urban environments—where you’re not just dealing with intercultural dynamics between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people but also intracultural tensions within Indigenous communities themselves.
Jacobsen: That reminds me of the diversity in Christian traditions, too. For instance, the modern evangelical movement in the U.S. and Canada is relatively uniform. However, traditions like Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism remain distinct, owing to their long historical separation—between Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew and the Pope.
Cook: Right—and even within those traditions, each has its own internal governance, rituals, and symbolic systems, just like us.
Jacobsen: That’s correct. And in Eastern Orthodoxy, the Ecumenical Patriarch is called “first among equals”—a primus inter pares. However, The Catholic Church does not see the Pope that way. So there’s a lateralization of hierarchy in Eastern Orthodoxy that you don’t see in Catholicism, where the hierarchy is more pyramidal.
Given that, though—and more to the point ritualistically—both the Eastern Orthodox and Catholics, from what I’ve seen in their communities, have a very intricate ceremonial life. I don’t mean “better,” just more complex in structure, especially compared to modern evangelical or prosperity gospel movements, which tend to be simpler in ritual and more overtly political in tone after their Sunday services.
From what you describe about the Anishinaabe, I understand that the rituals are deeply tied to place, history, and cultural memory. Almost everything is done within a spiritual context, whereas in Catholic or Orthodox Christianity, the rituals are rich and symbolic. However, many adherents return to their regular, often secular, lives after the liturgy.
Cook: I think that’s fair. I also believe that a kind of hierarchy of belief or ritual commitment exists within Anishinaabe communities. Let me go back to an example.
Just north of here—about a twenty-minute ride on Lake Scugog—there’s a First Nation where I have many ties. I probably spent as much time there as I did on Rice Lake, where I grew up. That community had a longstanding chief lineage—a family that had held that leadership position across several generations.
But I remember from back then that there wasn’t much visible spiritual practice. It all seemed private; at least, that’s how I experienced it.
Just before COVID, I went up to visit friends in that community. I dropped into the health centre and chatted with some people about my history with the Nation. I’d helped them re-establish the powwow there about thirty or thirty-five years ago. At the time, they had never held a powwow, but I’d been involved in running a successful one in Oshawa for about five or six years. They asked me to help organize their first one—show them how to build the arbour for the drum according to tradition, invite elders, and how to structure the event.
When I visited more recently, I spoke about possibly getting more involved in the community again. But they asked me directly whether I was Midewiwin—or Mide, as it’s often shortened. They implied that if I wasn’t, I might not be welcome like I once was.
That’s a community I grew up in. But they had started holding Midewiwin ceremonies regularly, and those come with a much more formal structure. So yes, there’s a hierarchy there. That particular spiritual tradition—the Midewiwin or Grand Medicine Society—requires a kind of adherence to specific teachings, ceremonies, and protocols.
You could compare it loosely to a Masonic lodge in structure—not in content, but in how it’s organized into degrees or levels. As you advance, you gain access to more profound teachings, some of which are kept secret or sacred until you reach a certain level or have participated for several years.
Jacobsen: That’s a very structured system. You mentioned earlier the status of women as a factor. Most cultures at least pay lip service to the ideals the international community promotes—things like gender equality and inclusivity.
What parts of traditional or historical Indigenous culture—specifically Anishinaabe—do you see as genuinely practicing gender parity? And conversely, where is that parity lacking? Especially in today’s conversation, are there ways that transcendental, supernatural, or extra-material justifications are used to explain or defend those inequalities—or even to silence criticism?
Cook: Great question. Let me start with something I touched on earlier—women sitting at the drum. Today, if you attend powwows—certainly in this region—you will see women sitting at the main drum and singing, the big drum representing Mother Earth’s heartbeat. Traditionally, women used smaller hand drums, usually 12 to 18 inches in diameter, and men sat at the big drum. That’s changed. There’s no more gender parity in that ceremonial role, at least in some communities.
As for justifications for maintaining older traditions or exclusions—yes, there are stories. Indigenous cultures often preserve and transmit social structures through traditional narratives. These stories are told to explain why things are the way they are, often in spiritual or cosmological terms.
To give you a tangible example: at a powwow, a man can dress however he likes—shorts, a T-shirt, and running shoes. He’ll still be allowed into the circle to dance. Some of us old-timers still wear ribbon shirts and regalia, of course. But if a woman shows up in a dress that doesn’t go to her ankles, someone will almost certainly take her aside, ask her to change, or even leave the circle.
That gender-specific expectation is still very much present—at least here. It could certainly be viewed as restrictive or patriarchal from a mainstream cultural lens. However, within the culture, teachings passed to women help contextualize and justify these expectations. Whether you see it as subjugation or sacred protocol depends on your frame of reference.
Jacobsen: That reflects a broader tension—between cultural tradition and modern equality frameworks. And I’ve seen this tension play out even in international settings. I did two weeks of journalism in mid-March at UN headquarters in New York City during the 69th Session of the Commission on the Status of Women (CSW69). I sat in on an entirely Indigenous-led session with a panel of Canadian Indigenous women—both young and older voices.
The stories shared were incredibly moving. There were moments during the panel when there was open crying—not just among the speakers but also among the audience. The speakers discussed intergenerational trauma, displacement, gender-based violence, resilience, leadership, and cultural renewal.
That kind of setting brings out the depth of these issues. It shows how women’s voices in Indigenous communities—especially when given a platform—often expand and complicate the narrative beyond the neat boxes that institutions like the UN try to put things in.
These weren’t minor figures either—these were foremost Canadian Indigenous leaders, speaking candidly. At the same time, you had high-profile figures like Bob Rae, Canada’s ambassador to the UN, walking through because he had other meetings—there was this strange mix of formality and intimacy.
What struck me most, though, was how it tied back to what you mentioned earlier—the consciously inflicted tragedy of the residential school system. What I saw in that room wasn’t necessarily what I’d call healing, at least not in the clinical or complete sense. It was more like people were, at that moment, relieving themselves of the burden of silence—finally saying things aloud that had weighed on them.
To me, that release—while powerful—is private and not always therapeutic in the lasting sense. It’s more like a momentary purging. It’s the difference between washing a wound and disinfecting and stitching it. That open expression of pain, especially in a public space where others have shared history if not identical experiences, creates a kind of communal recognition.
Now, the women themselves would describe it far more eloquently and precisely. However, that was the emotional atmosphere I absorbed from that session at the UN in New York. That said, this living history is not something we can choose to ignore. It’s here, whether we talk about it or not. That brings me to this: Are there contexts in which traditional beliefs can offer an anchor, a sense of grounding—but where supernatural elements or superstitions surrounding those beliefs may not serve long-term health or healing?
I’m thinking here of something Noam Chomsky once shared. He described knowing an immigrant mother who had lost her child. She found deep comfort in the belief that she would be reunited in heaven with her child after her death.
Chomsky, of course, didn’t believe in that promise. But he also didn’t try to strip her of that consolation. He understood that in the moment, it brought genuine emotional relief. Still, he questioned whether that kind of belief system, while temporarily comforting, is ultimately sustainable or healthy. It’s sort of like using an antidepressant or anxiolytic for a period of acute need—but then pairing that with practical life changes or cognitive tools that support longer-term well-being.
Over time, you wean off the medication, and you’re left with sustainable skills and insights. In this way, the person can integrate their trauma rather than escape it.
So, Can traditional Indigenous spirituality serve that kind of transitional function—providing ritual and meaning early on but eventually giving way to something more lasting, less myth-bound, and potentially more universal? They’re dealing with the context of their own life story.
Cook: Absolutely. And I have some pretty strong opinions about that—because I know so many people who experienced residential schools firsthand and who still live with that trauma. And what’s even more heartbreaking is how that trauma was often passed on. It created parents who didn’t know how to nurture or protect their children, and those children—now adults—passed the trauma on again to their kids. That’s the intergenerational trauma we keep talking about.
This is one of my core criticisms of Indigenous humanism as it is sometimes practiced today. One of its guiding ideas is the creation of strong communities rooted in culturally grounded mental and physical health programs tailored to Indigenous needs. While that’s well-intentioned, I worry that, in some cases, it does not address the root problems.
It’s similar to my broader critique of religion. As Marx said, it’s the opium of the masses—not because it’s inherently evil, but because it can offer a Band-Aid without providing honest answers. It may feel good to believe in the power of prayer. But to me, prayer and meditation are quite different. Meditation is an internal process, a focus on self-awareness and grounding. In many traditions, prayer involves asking for something, often from a higher power. That’s a very different kind of psychological engagement.
My point is this: religions tend to provide emotional scaffolding, a way of soothing pain. But mental health professionals can do that too, and in many cases, more effectively, without relying on superstition or magical thinking.
So, in the Indigenous context, when Native spirituality is used to help people cope, yes—it can offer comfort. But I also think it can delay more profound healing or perpetuate specific traumas under the guise of tradition. Some of this intergenerational pain might be addressed earlier and more effectively if we approached it with direct, evidence-based support instead of spiritualized frameworks alone.
Jacobsen: That’s a very personal critique. Speaking of personal—what about your own experience, living as an atheist within the community?
Cook: [Laughing] The short answer is: I’m not really “out.”
Jacobsen: Oh? Some people might be in for a surprise.
Cook: Yeah— Because honestly, it wasn’t hard for me to step away from social and ceremonial aspects of community life.
All of my elders, the people I deeply respected—the ones who made the Native community meaningful to me—have passed away. That’s the thing about being an elder: there’s only one destination, and we’re all moving quickly. (chuckles)
I’d had conversations with a few while they were still alive. They knew where I stood. They understood that for me, participating in ceremonies wasn’t about belief but culture and showing respect for our traditions and them.
For example, when I was growing up, the concept of a single, monotheistic Creator never really came up—at least not in any way I remember. That may have been introduced later or emphasized more heavily as Christian influence spread.
When we got into a canoe to cross a lake, we would put down tobacco at the edge of the water—or directly into the water—to honour and protect ourselves from the spirits believed to inhabit the area.
There’s a specific water spirit in Anishinaabe tradition, Mishipeshu, or the underwater panther. In our traditions, Mishipeshu lives in lakes and rivers. If you fail to pay proper respect, you might experience a storm, or your canoe could capsize, or worse. That spirit wasn’t just a story—it was part of the everyday consciousness of being on the land and water.
As a kid, when you were alone in the forest, we also had stories about Wendigos. There’s even a famous poem about them. In our culture, the Wendigo was this malevolent, ghost-like creature—part spirit, part cautionary tale. They were associated with greed, cannibalism, and spiritual imbalance. They lived in the woods and were a real part of the spiritual landscape.
Everyday life included constant gestures of respect toward nature and the spirits. In that way, it’s very similar to Shinto, the traditional Indigenous religion of Japan, where kami, or spirits, are found in rocks, trees, rivers, and mountains. That was the world I grew up in.
Even now, when I walk past a giant tree, I instinctively put my hand on it—not because I believe it will speak to me, but out of respect. So, maybe some of my “superstitious” thinking hasn’t completely left me. But for me, it’s not superstition—it’s about honouring the natural world around me. Or at least, that’s how I justify it now.
As a child, though, this wasn’t metaphorical. It was literal. We believed in individual spirits—everywhere. And this is deeply embedded in Anishinaabemowin, our language. The language doesn’t just have masculine and feminine genders, like French or Spanish—it also distinguishes between animate and inanimate nouns.
And what’s considered “animate” isn’t always what Western culture would define that way. A boulder, for instance—a glacial erratic you might stumble upon in the forest—is considered animate because it has spirit. We’d refer to it as a grandfather, a being who has been there since time immemorial.
In the sweat lodge ceremony, when heated stones are brought in, they’re not just “rocks”—they are greeted as grandfathers (Mishomis) and treated with reverence. That’s the spirituality I grew up with. It’s not monotheistic or dogmatic, just interwoven with the land, the water, and the life around us.
Jacobsen: How are you distinguishing Indigenous humanism (or Native humanism) from secular humanism? And why don’t we collapse the terms under something broader like Humanists International’s definition of humanism?
Cook: Because they’re not the same. In some ways, yes—there’s overlap, and they can work together in many areas, but at a fundamental level, they’re incompatible.
Secular humanism is grounded in reason, science, and ethics without reliance on the supernatural. It emerged from the Age of Reason, and its philosophical foundations rest on empirical evidence, reproducibility, and skeptical inquiry.
On the other hand, Indigenous humanism is deeply embedded in spirituality and cultural tradition. Spirituality and culture are not separable in Indigenous contexts. There’s no culture without spirituality and no spirituality without culture. They’re intertwined.
Indigenous humanism also emphasizes connection to nature, reverence for the land, and relational thinking, aligning with some of secular humanism’s environmental ethics. So there’s common ground, especially around values like sustainability and community well-being.
However, the gap becomes philosophically significant when one worldview is based on ancestral wisdom, oral tradition, and what’s now often called “alternative ways of knowing,” and the other is based on scientific rationalism.
Jacobsen: What do you make of attempts to merge the two—to create some hybrid identity between Indigenous and secular humanism?
Cook: I think doing so requires a massive amount of cognitive dissonance. The two systems operate on very different epistemological foundations.
Secular humanism—again—is about what can be tested, measured, and replicated. It’s a product of Enlightenment thinking. Indigenous humanism is about lived experience, ancestral teachings, oral transmission, and sacred relationships with land and life. When someone tries to blend the two, they often end up unconsciously prioritizing one over the other or reframing one to fit the lens of the other.
And to be honest, the modern framing of “alternative ways of knowing” tends to get used in philosophically muddy ways. It can obscure more than it reveals, especially when not critically examined.
Jacobsen: Would it be fair to say that secular humanism doesn’t offer a “variety of ways of knowing” but a shared standard of inquiry?
Cook: It’s not about many truths—it’s about one standard for evaluating truth claims. In that sense, it doesn’t offer pluralism the way Indigenous frameworks do. And that’s where deep tensions arise when people try to conflate the two without acknowledging that.
So that concept—“ways of knowing”—is one that, as a secular humanist and as a scientist, I find very difficult to accept in a literal sense. I don’t believe there are multiple valid epistemologies when uncovering truth. There are ways of being, indeed—those are cultural. But I’m very skeptical of ways of knowing as alternative epistemic systems.
We know things through scientific inquiry and critical thinking—through processes that yield repeatable and reproducible results. That’s the foundation of empirical knowledge. Now, I know there’s a common critique that science is reductionist. That’s true, but reductionism has also given us tremendous insight into the natural world and a robust framework for understanding reality.
My experience has been that Indigenous ways of knowing are often tied to experiential learning—through direct engagement, observation, and interaction with the environment. This can be valuable as a teaching method and cultural transmission, but it is unreliable for discovering objective truths.
We’d still be stuck in a Newtonian physics model if we relied solely on direct experience as a path to knowledge. We wouldn’t have the relativity of Einstein or the quantum models of the subatomic world—because you can’t see those things with the naked eye. Much of what we now understand about the universe is counterintuitive, and it took sophisticated tools and models to uncover those truths.
The reality is that humans have cognitive biases—lots of them. And when we rely only on intuition, feeling, or observation without rigour, we risk being led astray. I often hear, even within Indigenous communities, references to people who claim psychic abilities or who say they “just know” something spiritually or emotionally about the land or the Creator—because of a sign or feeling only they can perceive. That’s very similar to what you hear in other religious traditions.
As a humanist, I struggle to understand how that could be called knowledge in any formal sense. We must be careful not to confuse belief or emotional insight with empirical evidence. Many people feel compelled to pay deference to Indigenous humanism because they have a genuine desire for reconciliation, respect, and inclusion. I support that. I respect the individuals.
But that doesn’t mean I have to respect the belief system—especially when the system makes claims unfalsifiable or unsupported by evidence. So, when someone says, “I know this is true because an elder told me,” it’s a classic example of an appeal to authority. By scientific standards, that doesn’t constitute knowledge.
To be clear, Indigenous humanism has beautiful and valuable elements. The ethical teachings, especially around respect for the environment, are profound. But even there, we must be honest—those values are not unique to Indigenous worldviews. Take Greta Thunberg, for example. She is not Indigenous, yet her environmental ethic is evident, principled, and powerful.
Jacobsen: We also need to distinguish between humaneness, as in compassion or emotional sensitivity, and humanism, as a defined philosophical and ethical worldview. You mentioned feelings earlier—that idea of having a feeling about a rock, a vibe from a place, or a sense about a person.
That kind of subjective experience—how I feel about a particular location or object—might be meaningful in a personal or cultural context. Still, it’s not a factual claim about that location’s chemistry, biology, or geophysics.
Those are different domains. One is about the internal emotional experience; the other is about objective external reality. Confusing the two can lead to misunderstandings within Indigenous communities and broader knowledge, belief, and truth discussions.
There’s a subjective fact there. You can describe how someone feels about something and that’s real for them. However, it does not represent the objective state of affairs external to the person. It’s not about the object itself but about how that person experiences the object.
So, there’s a difference between that kind of emotional resonance and what we might call the “woo-woo” formulation of a vibe. In the 1960s and 1970s, this vibe culture emerged among many Euro-American communities, especially within a hippie culture—a sort of diffuse, mystical energy reading of the world.
But that’s distinct from something like intuition. Sure, people can misunderstand or misuse intuition, but in many cases, intuition is grounded—it’s developed from experience and a deep familiarity with a field. For example, a scientist might have a hunch about a hypothesis or direction for research based on years of work, even before the data fully confirms it.
So those are subtle but important distinctions. And I think there’s a humanistic, empirical way to talk about those kinds of experiences—intuition, emotion, reverence—without turning them into mysticism or supernaturalism. That way, we respect the emotional or intuitive side of human understanding while remaining grounded in the natural world and a commitment to truth.
Cook: I agree. And earlier, you used the word “humaneness.” I think as a secular humanist, and in my case, not just an atheist but an anti-theist—because I believe religion does real harm—it’s still essential to recognize context. I don’t need to brandish my atheism in people’s faces.
If someone finds comfort at a funeral because they believe their loved one is in a better place, now is not the time to challenge them. That’s not compassion. A compassionate stance is central to secular humanism—the desire to support well-being and respect others, even if we don’t share their beliefs.
So I get it if someone tells me they had a powerful emotional experience in the woods—a deep sense of connection or reverence. I’ve stood under the aurora borealis and felt awe; that emotional reaction is human. It might arise from intuition, nature’s scale, or raw beauty. And that feeling can lead us into scientific exploration. The stars can move you, and you still want to understand the physics behind them.
So again, to return to what I said before, conversation is critical. We lose opportunities for shared understanding when we shut down dialogue or categorically dismiss something without engaging.
Many discuss integrating science and Indigenous humanism or bringing the two into respectful dialogue. I support that principle—as long as we maintain clarity about what we mean by knowledge, belief, emotion, and experience.
And probably the most controversial thing I’ll say is this: I don’t think there is anything uniquely Indigenous—in terms of knowledge or worldview—that doesn’t exist elsewhere. That doesn’t mean it isn’t valuable, but I question whether it’s epistemically unique. I’d go so far as to say that, in some cases, these cultural beliefs can have an adverse effect—they can hinder rather than help.
I have two anecdotal examples that shed light on what I mean.
First, I recently watched a documentary about bison in Yellowstone National Park. Researchers had long believed the bison population was dwindling because wolves had been reintroduced to the park. But after years of research and scientific reductionism—they discovered that the real culprit was lake trout.
Here’s how: the lake trout were predators of salmon, a primary food source for grizzly bears. And grizzlies, who usually don’t prey on bison outside of a very short period during calving, were now starving. The only time bears can kill bison is for about two weeks in the spring when the calves are still tiny. However, the bears hunted more young bison during that narrow window because of the salmon shortage. Wolves had not contributed to the bison population decline.
You can only arrive at that kind of conclusion through systematic scientific inquiry. You cannot deduce that from direct observation alone—not with any reliability. Yes, maybe you’d intuit that something upstream was causing the bears to behave differently, but then you would need to test that hypothesis in a repeatable and reproducible way. That’s how we know what’s happening.
The second example relates to archaeological research. The Smithsonian Institution has a vast collection of human skulls from all over the world. These have been used for anthropological, archaeological, and evolutionary research. Some of the skulls in the collection are of Indigenous origin.
The law rightly states that when the provenance—that is, the tribal or cultural origin—of a skull is known, it should be returned to that Indigenous group for repatriation and appropriate cultural handling. I fully support that.
But it becomes complicated here: many skulls have unknown or unverifiable provenance. And some Indigenous groups are now refusing to allow any study of those skulls. In some cases, female researchers are prohibited from touching the remains during certain times of the month based on ceremonial protocols. Even x-rays of the skulls—non-invasive digital scans—are sometimes requested to be returned or destroyed because they are also considered sacred representations of the remains.
Now, I ask—where do we draw the line? I find it very difficult to see how treating an X-ray as a sacred object benefits anyone, especially when we’re talking about the pursuit of human knowledge and scientific understanding that could benefit all people, including Indigenous communities themselves.
As a child, though, this wasn’t metaphorical. It was literal. We believed in individual spirits—everywhere. And this is deeply embedded in Anishinaabemowin, our language. The language doesn’t just have masculine and feminine genders, like French or Spanish—it also distinguishes between animate and inanimate nouns.
And what’s considered “animate” isn’t always what Western culture would define that way. A boulder, for instance—a glacial erratic you might stumble upon in the forest—is considered animate because it has spirit. We’d refer to it as a grandfather, a being who has been there since time immemorial.
In the sweat lodge ceremony, when heated stones are brought in, they’re not just “rocks”—they are greeted as grandfathers (Mishomis) and treated with reverence. That’s the spirituality I grew up with. It’s not monotheistic or dogmatic, just interwoven with the land, the water, and the life around us
Jacobsen: That raises a lot of essential questions. As our mutual friend, Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson, often points out, the self—and, by extension, culture—is not static. It’s a dynamic process. Cultures evolve and adapt over time, as individuals do, at varying rates and ways.
How have you seen Indigenous culture evolve in Canada over the years? Some observers describe what’s happening now as a renaissance—a revival or reinvention of traditional knowledge and spiritual practice. Do you see it that way?
Others have observed something different—an integration between Indigenous cultures and Anglophone or Francophone Canadian culture, resulting in what might be called a hybrid identity, particularly among urban Indigenous peoples.
Then you have people—like yourself—taking a more universalistic approach, seeking frameworks that view the human species through a scientific lens. That’s the truth-based perspective, where ethnicity is understood as a sociological category, a layer we place over our shared biology.
This also ties into an epistemology that aspires to be universal—not necessarily in opposition to every microprocessor within broader “ways of knowing,” but certainly in tension with epistemological pluralism, which often rests on less rigorous foundations. By contrast, the scientific method offers a universal filter for arriving at objective truths about the world.
So, how have you seen these elements—cultural revitalization, hybridization, and scientific humanism—evolve during your lifetime?
Cook: Wow. That’s a big question.
Specifically regarding knowledge, I would say that Indigenous culture has crystallized—that is, it’s become more codified and standardized in ways that weren’t present when I was younger.
As I mentioned earlier, there’s been a homogenization of Indigenous cultures across North America. Historically, sharing between nations was done to support trade—cultural elements were exchanged pragmatically. But now we see deeper integration and standardization of ceremonial practices. From coast to coast to coast, there are often standard formats for things like vision quests, sweat lodges, powwows, and even the regalia worn at those gatherings.
Alongside this has come a more defined idea of Indigenous humanism, particularly regarding how knowledge is transmitted. There’s a growing emphasis on learning from elders, which is being passed on in Native Studies programs, language classes, and cultural revitalization efforts. The resurgence of Indigenous languages is one of the best things happening now. There’s nothing to criticize about strengthening cultural continuity—that’s essential and beautiful.
But where I start to think critically is in the epistemological space. All around the world, cultures have developed systems of knowledge—about the environment, healing, and ethics. Indigenous cultures have made meaningful contributions, for example, to agricultural practices like crop rotation or land stewardship. But I wouldn’t say those practices are uniquely Indigenous. Versions of them exist across many cultures globally.
And that’s where I think the scientific method offers something distinct—the process that has served us best since the Age of Reason. It begins with hypotheses, follows with testing, and leads to the development of theories—not just beliefs but replicable, predictive models.
I struggle sometimes to express this clearly, but what I’m getting at is that while the diversity of cultural worldviews is essential and enriching, when it comes to understanding the natural world, the scientific pursuit of knowledge remains the most reliable, universal process we have. That doesn’t invalidate cultural meaning-making, but we shouldn’t confuse it with empirical truth.
Of course, you understand how “theory” gets thrown around—“It’s just a theory.” But a scientific theory is far more than a hunch or intuition. It’s something that’s been tested rigorously, often in hundreds of different contexts, and has repeatedly held under those conditions.
That doesn’t mean it’s 100% guaranteed—it’s not absolute certainty—but it does mean that we haven’t yet found a way to disprove it. And that’s meaningful. That’s what knowledge grounded in evidence looks like.
That way of thinking is foundational for me—and this is how I’m wired, maybe because I come from a scientific background. There are Indigenous and scientific parts of me, but I can’t help it: I reason, believe in systems, and think in processes.
I have difficulty conceptualizing some of these so-called “other ways of knowing.” Throughout my life, I’ve understood the cultural teachings I received not as truth claims but as stories—valuable but not epistemologically authoritative.
So when I walk through the woods and put my hand on a tree, that action connects to something cultural—maybe even spiritual, in a poetic sense—but it feels like a kind of vestigial organ from that part of my heritage. It doesn’t represent the truth to me. As I see it, the truth comes from science and rational inquiry.
And I don’t know how we’re supposed to reconcile that tension. From my perspective, scientific thinking is still the best tool we’ve developed as a species to understand the world around us. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than anything else.
And the scientific method isn’t culturally exclusive. It may have been formalized during the European Enlightenment, but it’s been adopted and applied by cultures around the world. The cross-cultural sharing of scientific knowledge has done more to bend the moral arc of history than the exchange of supernatural or magical beliefs ever has.
Jacobsen: In the African American community in the United States, there’s often the perception that atheism or humanism is a “white thing.” Do you find anything similar in Indigenous communities in Canada—where science, secularism, or even atheism is seen as foreign, colonial, or somehow outside the cultural norm?
Cook: Oh. That perception exists.
And I think that’s part of the reason Indigenous humanism has taken root—it’s a kind of response to the perception that science, and by extension secular humanism, is a product of white Western culture. There’s a historical trauma there, of course, because science was often tied to colonial institutions—residential schools, anthropological exploitation, eugenics, resource extraction—you name it.
However, that distrust of science is not unique to Indigenous communities. Just look at the religious right in the United States. Much of that worldview is grounded in Christian fundamentalism, and it also treats science as a left-wing enemy.
So you get this strange convergence: one side rejects science because they see it as secular, the other see it as colonial—but both resist the same process that has arguably done the most to improve human life on a material and ethical level.
The current administration is actively dismantling scientific institutions and educational infrastructure because it sees science as foreign, something separate from its culture and worldview. So yes, after having been to many universities across Canada, I’ve never seen an Indigenous science class. I’ve seen Native Studies classes at virtually every institution—but not Indigenous-led science education that operates by scientific principles. That absence is telling.
Jacobsen: I often point out, for example, that however the Egyptians built the pyramids, it wasn’t “Egyptian engineering.”It was just engineering. It happened to be carried out by Egyptians, but it was part of the universal domain of human problem-solving. And the same applies to science. It emerges from culture, sure, but any one culture does not own it.
Cook: That’s exactly right. That’s why I made that flippant comment about Greta Thunberg—ethics, environmentalism, and scientific reasoning aren’t culturally bound. They’re philosophical systems we’ve developed as a species.
I’d say the opposite of what’s often claimed. One commonly repeated claim about Indigenous humanism is that it has forced science to become more ethical and environmentally aware. But I don’t believe that’s true.
Regardless of cultural background, many scientists are already working hard to integrate ethics, sustainability, and responsibility into research. That pressure didn’t have to come from any single cultural worldview. It’s not a unique contribution of Indigenous epistemology or any other cultural system. These are universal human concerns.
I mentioned this earlier: the moral arc of history is bending, but not because of culture. It’s bending because we’re becoming more interconnected and aware of how we are all part of the same planetary system. That’s where progress comes from—not from traditionalism, but often despite it.
Cultural frameworks can often become obstacles to progress. They assert, “That doesn’t fit my culture, so I can’t accept it.” But when you look at what has slowed human development, it’s often things like religious dogma, nationalism, and rigid racial or ethnic identities. These forces have stifled progress—not fostered it.
So, progress didn’t happen because of culture; in many cases, it happened despite culture.
Jacobsen: Do you think that some of the current emphasis on race and ethnicity, particularly in academic or professional contexts—using the language of “allies” and “identity”—might deter Indigenous people and other minorities who are genuinely interested in joining science or engineering departments?
In other words, does the intense focus on Indigeneity as identity, when applied to objective disciplines like science, inadvertently create a kind of self-re-racialization that alienates people from universal spaces of inquiry?
Cook: You know what? I hadn’t considered that before, but that’s a critical point.
Let me collect my thoughts without sounding too controversial right off the bat.
But yes—I would have to say yes.
I think all young people—regardless of background—reach a point where they have to decide the direction of their future: career, values, identity. For young people in Indigenous communities, especially on reserves, that decision can be even more complicated.
Some may enter fields like political science, sociology, or psychology, where they can gain knowledge and return to their communities to provide leadership or serve as advocates. That’s admirable.
But here’s where I get stuck: I have difficulty articulating this clearly, and I don’t know if it’s truly possible to keep one foot firmly in the culture and one foot in a scientific discipline—at least not without tension.
And maybe that’s not a fair generalization, either. Take anthropology, for example. That’s a scientific field where you could still honour and explore your cultural background. That could be a space where the two can coexist.
You know what? I don’t have a complete answer to this. It’s something I’d need to think more about. Speaking just for myself, my gut instinct is that I can’t do both. I can’t believe in the cultural stories as truths, and, at the same time, I am fully committed to science. But that’s just me—and I wouldn’t want to impose that view on others.
This is probably a research project in the making. We need a proper survey of Indigenous students—which career paths they’ve taken, especially those who’ve pursued STEM fields—and what kinds of internal or external tensions they’ve experienced. That’s your next project right there.
Jacobsen: Is there a kind of taboo around pursuing formal education—particularly using the academic vocabulary of the Anglophone world? I remember watching a documentary on educational attainment, where a Black British educator pointed out that, for some Black boys in the UK, having a strong English vocabulary was viewed as “acting white.” So, you get this intra-cultural stigma where academic achievement becomes a source of social deterrence.
Do you think something like that might be at play in Indigenous communities in Canada, too—where embracing science or formal academic discourse is seen as stepping away from the culture?
Cook: That’s an interesting question. I don’t know if I’ve experienced that.
I haven’t noticed students avoiding academic vocabulary in some Indigenous Studies classes I’ve taken at Trent University. The conversation is usually conducted as you’d expect in any university-level seminar. I didn’t get the sense that anyone was being stigmatized for speaking in that way or that it was seen as “too white.” Based on my experience, I haven’t witnessed that dynamic.
Jacobsen: Fair enough. Another way humanism is often summarized internationally is with the triad: reason, compassion, and science. Where do you see sufficient overlap between that kind of humanist framework and the values within Anishinaabe culture? I mean that we’ve talked about birch bark, the sacredness of nature, and the spiritual worldview in Anishinaabe culture, where rocks, trees, and rivers all have spirits. That’s quite different from a scientific-naturalist framework.
So, where do you see alignment points in broad strokes—places where secular humanism and Anishinaabe worldview might meaningfully intersect?
Cook: So there are some areas of overlap, though not necessarily the ones people assume. Given some of the things I’ve experienced—and again, it’s hard to define this solely as “Anishinaabe culture” because it has shifted quite a bit over my lifetime—I’d say the places where mainstream society and secular humanism intersect with Indigenous culture are rooted in respect.
That includes respect for history, traditions, culture, and older people—I’ll say older people rather than elders since the term elder has specific ceremonial and cultural significance.
There’s also respect for all living things, which is where environmentalism or environmental stewardship comes in. Then there’s the idea of balancing our lives—the physical, social, and emotional aspects of being. Even values like diversity and inclusion are embedded in Anishinaabe culture to varying degrees.
I’d also mention the pursuit of ethics and ethical behaviour. These aspects are part of Anishinaabe traditions and secular humanism’s fundamental premises.
Jacobsen: That’s generally what I was getting at. Far be it from me to be a fan of evangelicalism, but if we take Protestantism more broadly, there are specific values that, while not always embraced to the extreme, have merit. For example, there is an emphasis on work ethic, which has virtue, whether applied to building a family, community, infrastructure, business, or academic excellence.
But I think the dominionist strain—particularly the desire for political control under religious mandates—is corrosive. It’s at odds with the secular aims that most humanists value: freedom of thought, pluralism, and individual rights.
On the Indigenous side, I don’t gravitate toward supernaturalism, but I see value in the naturalistic emphasis found in many Indigenous spiritual teachings. It’s concrete and practical and reflects a deep awareness of interdependence.
The ethic of caring for the environment rather than asserting dominion over it seems far more appropriate—especially given where we are as a planet. So, no culture has a monopoly on wisdom, but I think if we take a fine-grained look at different espoused virtues, there’s a lot we can learn.
Cook: I agree.
Jacobsen: And, of course, we must also acknowledge that espoused values are not always lived. That’s true in every culture. People often say one thing and do another.
Cook: Right—and a lot of that, I think, is related to scale and scope. Most people, outside of those with diagnosed psychopathy or similar disorders, aren’t going out of their way to harm animals or inflict suffering just for the sake of it.
Ethical lapses stem more from systems, pressure, or disconnect than intentional cruelty. Those systems are shaped by histories and structures, not just individuals.
The sheer scale of the challenge—feeding 9 billion people globally—has created a significant tension between ethically desirable and operationally scalable. That’s one of the things I’d say about Indigenous humanism: there’s much talk about ethics, sustainability, and traditional methods. Those ideas are important but also easier to apply in small communities or enterprises.
When you zoom out to the planetary scale, it becomes much harder. Yes, you can rotate crops to preserve soil health. That’s good practice. But then you hit a wall: monocultures exist because they allow for massive food production. And if you remove them without scalable alternatives, you run the risk of people starving.
So while many of us would love to see greater sustainability, better treatment of animals, and more respect for traditional practices—especially in smaller, land-based societies around the world—the hard limits of global logistics can challenge those ideals.
Jacobsen: It becomes an issue of scale and how values operate differently depending on context.
Cook: And that’s where utilitarian philosophy comes into play: Jeremy Bentham. It’s really about doing the least harm when faced with difficult trade-offs.
Again, those ethical frameworks—balancing harms and considering outcomes—aren’t uniquely Indigenous or part of Indigenous humanism. They’re part of global ethical discourse. I’ve often heard atheists say, “If I had to write a list of Ten Commandments, I could come up with seven better ones than the original.”
Jacobsen: [Laughing] That’s a valuable thought experiment.
Cook: Absolutely. It helps clarify what values matter. Because let’s face it: we’re not hunter-gatherers anymore. And while the Haudenosaunee agricultural tradition of planting corn, beans, and squash in the same mound—with a fish for fertilizer—is a brilliant, sustainable method, it’s not practical for feeding billions.
Jacobsen: How much interaction have you had with global Indigenous groups—from places like Western Europe, Latin America, Africa, or elsewhere?
Cook: Virtually none. I’ve interacted with Indigenous Australians and am familiar with some of their traditions. And I’ve only had limited interactions with Inuit here in Canada. That’s why I try not to generalize too broadly. I know my cultural neighbourhood and try to speak from that place.
Jacobsen: Do you watch the news much?
Cook: Every day.
Jacobsen: When it comes to Indigenous issues—as they’re often referred to in Canadian media—what are the things that mainstream outlets are getting right, what are they getting wrong, and what are they ignoring or failing to cover adequately? I’m thinking specifically in terms of factual accuracy and proportionality.
Cook: That’s a big one. I think it’s hard to get mainstream media to pay attention to Indigenous issues unless Indigenous people themselves create what looks like a crisis.
Take the example of Chief Theresa Spence and her hunger strike. That pushed attention toward the Idle No More movement across Canada. It wasn’t until thousands of us took to the streets, raised flags, and blocked bridges that the broader public started to see issues like many First Nations communities lacking clean drinking water. These communities have been on boil water advisories for over 50 years.
That’s a critical issue—and it’s one that’s barely covered. It occasionally pops up in the media, but there’s no consistent attention. And because of that, municipal, provincial, and federal governments only respond when there’s noise. Even the current Liberal government, which talks a lot about reconciliation and Indigenous rights, hasn’t made anywhere near the progress they promised. And I think part of that is because mainstream media is not holding them accountable—there’s no sense of urgency being communicated to the broader public.
Jacobsen: So, what does the media get right, wrong, and ignore? What would you say?
Cook: Okay, let’s break it down.
- What they get right: Occasionally, the media does highlight real issues—like lack of clean water or specific Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) recommendations. But it’s usually episodic and reactive, not consistent or systemic.
- What they get wrong: Often, there’s a lack of nuance and a tendency toward sensationalism. For example, when unmarked graves were discovered at former residential school sites, the coverage quickly escalated to headlines about mass murder—even in international outlets like the New York Times. The reality is deeply tragic, yes, but these were not mass executions. They were individual deaths, many from neglect, abuse, or disease. It was still horrific, but how it was framed in the media lacked historical and forensic context. That reporting distorts the conversation and leads to reaction instead of reflection.
- What they ignore: So much. Policy follow-up, for example—how many of the 94 Calls to Action from the TRC have been implemented? How is funding allocated to on-reserve infrastructure? Or the legal challenges around land back, resource development, and treaty rights? These are complex stories and don’t sell as easily as headlines about protests or conflict.
And the old saying about the media—what is it? “If it bleeds, it leads”?The media is built to chase the dramatic story, not the slow-moving but essential. Unfortunately, that means the real work of reconciliation—the hard, slow, policy-based work—often goes uncovered. When that happens, public pressure fades, and governments don’t feel compelled to act.
I can’t be entirely critical in terms of getting things right. The fact is, Indigenous issues do pop up in the news, and they do receive some visibility. You’ll see coverage of the leadership of various national and provincial Indigenous organizations, and there’s at least some public awareness.
But again, coverage often happens when there’s controversy—incompetence, criticism, or a political failure. The positive, ongoing work tends to be overlooked. So, while I appreciate that Indigenous issues remain somewhat within the mainstream’s awareness, I don’t think the media does an excellent job in terms of in-depth, accurate, or wide-ranging coverage.
Jacobsen: I once interviewed Lee Maracle before she passed away. I don’t recall whether we published it, but I remember something she said that stuck with me. She made a passing remark about how, if you took a river and superimposed a cylinder—completing its spatial circularity rather than thinking in just half or three-quarter arcs—you could use that to calculate the flow or size of the river. It was a fascinating metaphor.
What struck me was how she connected abstract structures, like those found in geometry, quantitative reasoning, or even axioms, with real-world patterns and spatial awareness. That got me thinking: Are there aspects of Indigenous thought or daily practice that incorporate this spatial or abstract reasoning—not through formal schooling in mathematics but through the lived culture itself? I’m curious whether these forms of insight emerged in ways that are just embedded in how people lived—whether nomadically, semi-nomadically, or in place.
Cook: Oh, wow. That’s a great question.
Strangely enough, the first thing that comes to mind is how Plains Indigenous peoples used buffalo hides to record their histories. They did it in a spiral format, starting from the center and spiralling outward, year by year, marking significant events. It’s a circular conception of time, which I’ve always found fascinating. It’s not linear—it emphasizes cycles, return, and continuity.
Another area is astronomy. Our constellations and celestial stories are very different from the ones recognized by European science. But the concept of constellations—linking stars into meaningful shapes that connect to narratives or moral teachings—is shared. It’s another way of imposing structure and meaning on the natural world. The patterns are interpreted differently, but the cognitive process is quite sophisticated.
Even if the outcomes are different—logic, categorization, and relational thinking exist. In many traditions, that reasoning is still embedded within a spiritual framework. There’s usually some spirit or force causing events to unfold. So, even where there’s spatial or numerical thinking, it often comes with a sacred or mythological dimension. That doesn’t make it less analytical—it just means it’s integrated differently than in Western scientific models.
I think in the other direction. The perception of time as cyclical is very prominent.
That’s true for many Indigenous cultures around the world. Time is often seen as cyclical rather than linear because of its close relationship to the natural environment. When you’re living within the rhythms of the land, you begin to observe and internalize the constant cycles of seasons, plants, animals, migration, birth, and death.
Jacobsen: What about the social and ethical culture? Are there aspects of Anishinaabe tradition—like an emphasis on compassion or universal moral principles—that overlap with humanism? For example, in situations like a dispute over food or land, whether with another community or within a family, were there mechanisms of resolution that reflected something like a humanistic ethic?
Cook: That’s an interesting question. I don’t know how to characterize it as a humanistic ethic in the Western sense. But what I find remarkable and unique in Anishinaabe culture is the approach to guiding others. It’s often done through gentle encouragement rather than direct correction or authoritative instruction.
Let’s say a child is doing something dangerous. In mainstream Western culture, a parent might yell, snap, or slap their hand if the child reaches for something hot. But in the Indigenous contexts I’ve been part of, the response is often gentler—more about guiding the child away from harm than punishing them for curiosity.
I remember an example from one of the elders I knew, a remarkable woman. She ran visiting elder programs, going into schools and organizations to share wisdom and offer guidance. One day, she came to me with a concern.
The community near me, which I’m closely tied to, had repatriated a skeleton—the remains of a man who had been identified, through evidence, as Midewiwin. The bones were around 300 years old and had been found off-reserve. The community brought him home and held a traditional Midewiwin ceremony to lay him to rest in their cemetery.
The woman who led the ceremony told me that she felt that the community wasn’t treating the grave with enough respect. Her concern wasn’t expressed in anger or confrontation but with sorrow and gentleness. She felt a sacred duty had been mishandled—not out of malice, but out of forgetfulness or carelessness.
That speaks to a relational ethic—not one rooted in universal rules but in context, relationships, and reverence.
I hesitate to call it “humanism” formally. But there are shared values: compassion, restraint, and guidance without domination. And those principles—whether Indigenous or humanist—have much to offer today’s world.
In modern Anishinaabe culture, that translates to the belief that graves must be well-tended and respectfully maintained. In this case, the elder I mentioned was concerned because the repatriated grave was neglected. She shared her concern with me, and I responded, “No problem—I’ll go back and make sure that it gets done.”
But I was wrong to use that kind of directive language—”I’ll make sure it gets done.” That’s not how guidance works in Anishinaabe culture. You don’t give orders. You don’t tell people what to do or how to behave. Instead, you tell stories, you coach, and you nudge gently. That’s the approach. It’s gentle, respectful, and, in many ways, a beautiful part of the culture. I was counselled to tell the traditional story of Nanaboozho and his fight with his brother. That was the right way to help the community understand why the grave needed to be more carefully tended.
But there are downsides, too.
In a community where alcoholism can be pervasive, for example, people might not intervene. They won’t necessarily step in to stop someone or help them recover. If someone is engaging in self-harm, the traditional approach of non-interference may mean the community stays quiet, even when someone needs help. That’s changing now, thankfully, as many reserves are getting better access to health services, mental health support, and intervention programs.
But culturally, there’s still a tendency toward non-intervention, which can be both a strength and a weakness, depending on the situation.
Jacobsen: That seems like a deeply embedded ethic—one that’s built around respect and autonomy, but that can have real costs when applied rigidly. Are there any parts of your notes you haven’t had a chance to bring up yet—things you think should be included in this conversation?
Cook: Let me take a look. I haven’t even checked my notes in about three hours now. [Laughing] You’ve been good company.
One thing that stands out in my notes, which we haven’t discussed much yet, is how people—especially in more left-leaning or social justice-oriented circles—value Indigenous humanism. I don’t particularly like terms like “woke” or “social justice warrior”—mostly because I think they’re overused and poorly defined—but I think we all know the general type of person I’m talking about: culturally aware, often highly sensitive, and well-intentioned.
These individuals sometimes overvalue Indigenous humanism. I’ve thought about why that might be. I understand why people associate environmental ethics, climate consciousness, and spiritual ecology with Indigenous traditions. There is value there.
However, I suspect that part of the overvaluation is due to intellectual laziness. People latch onto romanticized ideas of Indigenous wisdom without thinking critically about what’s being said or those philosophies’ real-world impact.
For instance, if we’re talking about climate change, and someone says that Indigenous knowledge systems provide foundational insight into global warming, I argue that the actual contribution is limited. Most Indigenous knowledge systems were developed in local ecological contexts, not global climate models. They offer invaluable insight into local environmental shifts but are not a substitute for climate science.
So, yes, if you’re an Inuit in the High Arctic, you’ll notice the dramatic changes in seasonal patterns and temperatures. Your lived experience becomes a powerful data point. But to say that Indigenous humanism provides a universal climate ethic—I think that’s an overstatement.
That’s a necessary clarification. Respecting a tradition doesn’t mean inflating its scope. It means understanding it on its terms and recognizing its value within the context in which it was developed.
If you live in a small community north of Toronto, on a reserve, I can’t imagine that your local weather observations would offer any unique insight that meaningfully contributes to our broader understanding of climate change. That’s not a criticism of local knowledge—it’s just a recognition of scale.
This brings us back to the need for centralized mechanisms to evaluate truth and knowledge—systems that can collect localized observations, synthesize them, and turn them into theories that are then made actionable. That kind of comprehensive perspective is impossible to form solely at the local level—especially when the issues are global in scale.
So, while the ethical and moral frameworks present in Indigenous humanism are admirable—and often very positive—they’re not unique to Indigenous cultures. People all over the world have developed similar values in different ways.
I guess the summary for me is this: Indigenous humanism is often overvalued, especially by the “woke” or “social justice warrior” types. Not because the ideas are wrong—but because people sometimes elevate them without adequate critical reflection or contextual understanding.
Jacobsen: That’s an important distinction. Lloyd Robertson wrote about Indigeneity and humanism and argued—rightly, I think—that they can be compatible if you frame the conceptual puzzle carefully.
Now, you’re focusing on Indigenous humanism and its relationship to secular humanism. The mistake people often make in reasoning isn’t necessarily with the premise but with the categorization of humanism itself.
Many people mistakenly believe that humanism—of any variety—is a political party or ideology. But that’s fundamentally incorrect. The earliest declarations and policy statements, especially those formalized through bodies like Humanists International, are very careful with their language. Humanism emerged as a philosophical life stance—particularly after the barbarism of World War II—in reaction to the atrocities committed under both totalitarianism and religious fundamentalism.
In that sense, humanism is not political as people often frame it. It’s not anti-religious people—it’s anti-theology when theology violates autonomy, critical inquiry, and shared human values. It’s also not a political party, although it can align selectively with political movements that advance secular, evidence-based policy.
Right. Also, groups like Humanists UK carefully show that humanists can fall across the political spectrum. You’ve got Humanists for Labour, Humanist Conservatives, and so on. The philosophical core of humanism is one thing—how you apply that philosophy in politics is another.
So we shouldn’t expect humanists to vote as a bloc, though you might see that happen when a party becomes too deeply entrenched in religious fundamentalism or violates secular norms.
That’s one piece. The other issue is this concept of “wokeism” or identity politics—or whatever form of it people are reacting to. What often happens is that humanistic language gets co-opted for tribal political goals. And that can distort what humanism is actually about.
They come from good intentions and can undoubtedly have positive effects, particularly in mobilizing people around important causes. But where people seem to react negatively is with the language, the intimidation tactics, and the tendency to cancel rather than engage. That creates a moral pressure that can become alienating.
There’s also sometimes a lack of empirical rigour, especially compared to the standards you’d traditionally expect from humanist approaches—where careful reasoning, evidence, and thoughtful dialogue are foundational before you become “activated” around an issue. Of course, something might trigger you emotionally or historically, and that might lead you to pursue deeper research. But too often, it feels like the research is skipped, and people go straight to outrage.
Cook: We’re seeing a similar dynamic emerge in the context of Indigenous humanism. There’s cultural meaning, yes—but there’s also a risk of conceptual inflation and politicization, identical to what’s happening in other identity-based or ideologically driven spaces.
Jacobsen: That brings me back to what I raised about Dr. Lloyd Robertson’s paper earlier. He’s deliberate in using the term indigeneity rather than Indigenous humanism per se. He argues that Indigeneity—the full range of characteristics, histories, and identities that define someone as Indigenous—can be integrated with humanist thought if the framework is structured correctly.
So, moving beyond whether Indigenous humanism and secular humanism conflict, what about Indigeneity and humanism more broadly—can they coexist as a single, integrated worldview?
Cook: I’ve heard the term indigeneity before. Lloyd’s used it with me in conversation a few times. And if we define it broadly—all the things that make a person Indigenous, culturally, historically, linguistically, spiritually—without trying to narrow it down too tightly, then there’s no incompatibility.
The difficulty comes when we start labelling things. Humanism’s values can easily be co-opted by people with genuine ethical commitments or those more interested in virtue signalling. That’s not unique to humanism; it’s true for any moral framework.
While we were briefly pausing, I asked Google to pull up a list of humanist values to see how they read in plain language.
Let’s take a few:
- Dignity and worth of every person—hard to argue with unless you’re invoking the logic of 1940s fascism.
- Reason and science—even the most devout religious believers often claim science supports their views, even if it’s been twisted to fit.
- Ethics, compassion, and empathy—again, universally defensible.
- Human rights—yes, people sometimes limit them to “people who look and sound like them,” but the idea remains powerful.
- Social justice and equality are widely appealing and challenging to reject outright.
Honestly, this list reads more like what the Ten Commandments should have looked like. Instead of a list of “thou shalt nots,” it’s a positive ethical framework.
Jacobsen: So, in essence, these values are philosophically universal, making them easily embraced but also misused.
Cook: It’s easy to co-opt this language for your cause—whether ethical or performative. But the values themselves? They’re very hard to argue with—and I think that’s why properly understood humanism can be a meeting place, not a battleground.
When we use the word Indigeneity, there’s nothing in Indigenous culture that would contradict core values like dignity, worth, or reason. The definition of science might differ from the Western model, but what is often called Indigenous science still involves observational knowledge passed down through generations.
Take willow bark, for example. It contains acetylsalicylic acid—the active ingredient in aspirin. Indigenous people knew it could relieve pain, even though they didn’t see the chemistry. That’s still a form of empirical, experience-based science.
Ethics, human rights, and social justice are all values Indigenous people would recognize and affirm, whether explicitly or in practice. So, Indigeneity fits very comfortably with humanist values.
The only area where I find some tension is naturalism—the idea that the universe is governed strictly by natural laws, without supernatural forces. That’s where worldviews can diverge. In many Indigenous cultures, spiritual forces or non-material entities are part of how knowledge is explained or understood.
So, while I don’t think anyone would argue with the core principles of humanism, the point of difference lies in the belief that you can know things in ways that aren’t empirical or naturalistic. Aside from that, there’s widespread respect for the ethical foundation of humanism, even if the epistemological framing differs.
Jacobsen: That’s well put. And to nod to critics and defenders of those labelled as “woke,” something is interesting about how people signal their values. On one hand, critics might point to something like a rainbow lapel pin or a cross necklace—as a way of saying, “I’m a good ally” or “I’m a good Christian.” It becomes a kind of virtue signalling—an external signifier of internal moral standing.
Are there parallels in Indigenous culture today, particularly among younger generations—or even some elders—where there’s an increased use of symbolic items or participation that might not carry deep personal meaning but instead function as a cultural signifier?
Cook: I think I understand what you’re asking: whether some people are going through the motions—participating in culture symbolically without necessarily believing in the deeper spiritual or philosophical layers.
And the answer is absolutely.
In Anishinaabe culture, for instance, there’s a widely recognized symbol—the medicine wheel, sometimes called a unity pin. It’s a circle divided into four quadrants:
- White (North)
- Yellow (East)
- Red (South)
- Black (West)
An entire lifelong system of teachings is embedded in that wheel. It includes medicine teachings, stages of life, seasons, directions, and spiritual roles. However, not everyone who wears the medicine wheel engages deeply with those teachings. Some wear it simply as a cultural marker—a way of showing identity or solidarity.
That’s not necessarily a bad thing. But yes, it can become the Indigenous equivalent of a symbolic lapel pin. And just like in other communities, symbols can be used meaningfully or superficially.
It’s the Anishinaabe equivalent of a cross on your lapel. For a Christian, the cross is supposed to represent all the teachings and values of the faith. But for some, it’s simply an accessory—”I don’t know what it means, but it looks good on my jacket.” It’s symbolic shorthand, like an American flag pin on a senator’s lapel.
You see medicine wheels all over the place, and I could talk for days—possibly months—about the depth of teachings that go into those four colours arranged in a circle. So much culture, history, philosophy, and spiritual guidance are tied into that symbol. And yet, I don’t wear one.
Because, like with other symbolic items, some people wear it without engaging with its meaning. You’ll find people proudly wearing a cross who can’t explain even the basic tenets of Christianity. Or LGBTQ+ individuals wearing the Pride flag without necessarily understanding the struggles of the ’60s and ’70s—the history of protest, persecution, and civil rights activism that made those symbols possible.
So yes, absolutely—virtue signalling exists within Indigenous communities as well.
Jacobsen: That brings to mind the idea of private or protected knowledge found in some Indigenous traditions. You mentioned earlier that there are certain things you cannot speak about publicly—because doing so could lead to pushback or even breach community expectations.
That sounds reminiscent of Freemasonry—where inner circles, ritual practices, and esoteric teachings are passed down within structured hierarchies. It stands in contrast, in some ways, to humanism, which leans heavily on transparency and open inquiry.
So my question is this: What role does that kind of secrecy or ritual exclusivity play in Anishinaabe society—either historically or in the present day?
Cook: That’s a great and tricky question. Yes, you’ll find elitism in ceremonial groups like the Midewiwin Lodge—but it isn’t purely negative. It shows that members earn their place through real commitment and participation, creating a clear hierarchy.
A useful, if imperfect, comparison is the Shriners (an offshoot of Freemasonry). Structurally, the Midewiwin works the same way: you progress through degrees, and each degree unlocks deeper teachings. Whether those teachings focus on practical skills or spiritual wisdom often depends on your own path and experience.
Advancing has always carried a cost. In the past, members offered goods—livestock or trade items. Today, it usually means significant travel, time, and money. Those costs both limit membership and prove dedication: they show you’re serious about this path.
Like Freemasonry, the Midewiwin includes rituals—special handshakes or signs that mark your level. The details differ, but the organizational logic is similar. (I’m not a Freemason myself; I’ve drawn this understanding from research and conversations.)
In the Midewiwin Lodge, each level has its own rituals and secret knowledge. If you haven’t reached a given level, you don’t participate and you don’t observe. It’s a deliberately structured system.
I guess the summary for me is this: Indigenous humanism is often overvalued, especially by the “woke” or “social justice warrior” types. Not because the ideas are wrong—but because people sometimes elevate them without adequate critical reflection or contextual understanding.
Jacobsen: That’s a fascinating comparison—not in terms of belief systems, but organizational logic, ritual structure, and gatekeeping of knowledge.What else is on your mind?
Cook: [Laughing] We’ve covered a lot.
I keep thinking about the word “indigeneity” and how I’m trying to understand it. Is there a helpful distinction between ethnicity and culture here?
Take someone Jewish, for example. They can be ethnically Jewish but secular, with no religious inclination, or the reverse—they can be religiously Jewish but not ethnically.
I wonder if Indigeneity works similarly. It can describe someone’s ethnic identity or heritage, regardless of whether they fully engage with the cultural or spiritual practices traditionally associated with it. Maybe that’s why I can reconcile humanism with Indigeneity—because it’s about roots, background, and shared history.
But I struggle to reconcile humanism with “Indigenous humanism,” especially when the latter emphasizes supernatural belief systems or non-naturalistic knowledge. Humanism’s focus on science, reason, and naturalism creates tension.
Indigeneity can be descriptive and inclusive, while “Indigenous humanism” might sometimes involve conflicting epistemologies—mainly if the framework includes magical thinking or metaphysical assertions.
Jacobsen: One from left field: In history, if you could have dinner with Pontiac or Tecumseh, who would you choose?
Cook: [Laughing] Wow.
Honestly, I would’ve loved to have had dinner with Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce. From everything I’ve read, he was a remarkable human being—deeply ethical, thoughtful, and courageous.
Between Tecumseh and Pontiac? That’s harder to answer. One of my elders, who passed away in 2013, was named Angus Pontiac—a direct descendant of the Pontiac. So, out of respect, I’ll stay quiet on that one. [Laughing]
Jacobsen: Fair enough. How about something more contemporary—what do you think of Adam Beach’s acting?
Cook: I like Adam Beach. He brings a lot of depth and vulnerability to his characters. He’s got great range. I know Adam Beach. He’s a pretty good actor. He’s been cast in more comic or comedic roles; sometimes, he plays them with humour. But he’s also done some serious work that is quite strong.
[Laughing] I’ve got five more names I could throw out, but I’m not sure how far down that rabbit hole you want to go. One of them is Tom Jackson—he’s a friend of mine.
Jacobsen: I was thinking about William Whipple Warren, who was of Ojibwe and European descent and authored History of the Ojibwe People in 1885.
Cook: Oh—that does ring a bell. I have a very extensive library and that book is included.
Jacobsen: Or Louise Erdrich or Chief Peguis?
Cook: Chief Peguis—yes, that name rings a bell. I’m struggling to recall the details off the top of my head. He was a prominent leader, but I’d need to double-check the historical specifics.
Jacobsen: One more: Autumn Peltier—born February 2004. A young activist, she’s spoken at the United Nations, criticized environmental policies, and received awards like the International Children’s Peace Prize. She’s a leading voice in the global environmental movement.
Cook: I wasn’t aware of her. I was thinking of Leonard Peltier—he was part of the American Indian Movement, and he’s currently serving time in a U.S. federal prison, accused of involvement in the murder of an FBI agent during a standoff in 1975.
Jacobsen: Possibly a relation—but maybe not.
Cook: The structure of bands and surnames can be more complex than people outside Indigenous communities realize.
Jacobsen: Many First Nations in Canada have quite a small population. The numbers drop significantly once you get past the first 2,000 to 3,000 members.
Cook: We have a Mississauga Anishinaabe reserve about an hour and a half north of here. There are only about three surnames on the entire reserve.
Now, that doesn’t mean everyone’s related—though some are. But many are not. And a lot of that traces back to residential schools. When children were taken, they were often renamed. If your name was “Little Squirrel,” that wasn’t good enough for the school system. So, kids were given new first names, often English or biblical.
In many cases, they were also assigned the last name of the Indian Agent in charge of that reserve. That’s how family names were standardized, and that’s why surnames aren’t reliable indicators of lineage in many Indigenous communities in Canada.
Jacobsen: That’s incredibly revealing—how naming was institutionalized and how identity was systematically altered.
Cook: When people trace ancestry by surname, they often run into dead ends or false assumptions. Our names were reshaped by colonial policies, not by our customs or kinship systems. And that legacy still lingers.
Here’s a closing comment, I suppose:
I’ve said things today that could be perceived as critical, but I’ve lived an extraordinary life in the Native community. I’ve spent years balancing one foot in the scientific world and one foot in Indigenous culture. I love Indigenous culture deeply, but at some point, it became impossible for me to reconcile its spiritual components with my atheism and humanism.
Still, I have immense respect for the challenges Indigenous communities face and the progress they’ve made. And if people rally around something like Indigenous humanism as a unifying framework—even if I see tensions between that and secular humanism—I won’t take that away from them. If it brings meaning and solidarity, that’s their opium, to borrow a phrase.
Jacobsen: Thank you very much.
Cook: Thanks, Scott. I’ve enjoyed our conversation.
Jacobsen: Take care, David.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/04/07
I addressed a Croatian Christian association via virtual conference on clergy-related abuse, emphasizing journalism’s essential role as a watchdog exposing institutional misconduct. I argued that victims should be the primary voices, institutions secondary, with journalists facilitating balanced narratives. I urged acknowledgment of abuse without condemning entire denominations, advocating evidence-based investigations, interfaith dialogue, and robust reforms to protect victims and faith integrity. Citing historical scandals and cultural movements as context, I stressed that transparency and accountability are imperative. This speech within the context of the entirety of the conference will be shared with the Ecumenical Patriarch, EU Parliament, Roman Catholic Church, UN in Geneva, UNICEF, World Council of Churches, World Health Organization, and other major institutions, ensuring accountability and healing universally.
Journalism, first and foremost, is a human enterprise. It’s built on human observation, written for human consumption, and, primarily, concerns human enterprises. Just democracies, fair societies, accountable power, and the like, require journalists as critical watchdogs to bring otherwise hidden stories to the forefront. Clergy-related abuse is a complex and subtle issue with blunt outputs.
The primary voices of clergy-related abuse should be the victim who can give indications of patterns and see firsthand weaknesses in institutions that have misbehaved, abuse, and, often told lies or merely partial, softened truths about it. The secondary voices are everyone else in the institutional setup leading to the abuse in the system in the first place. Religious institutions have a minority of persons in positions of authority, unfortunately, who have abused. Journalists are a tertiary voice around these two.
The role of journalists is working with victims, with the majority of clergy who have not abused, and other researchers, to gather the narratives and collate those to get the wider scope of the patterns of the minority of clergy who have abused. People take the accountability problem seriously, as it’s bad for the victims, bad for the laity, bad for the image and authority of the clergy, and, essentially, bad for the representation of the faith. If you care about the future of Orthodoxy, then you care about this as an issue relevant to the integrity of the faith.
So, I wanted to take these few minutes to recognize the substantial problem before us, for a few reasons. Some factors played into the situation in which we find ourselves. First and foremost, the crimes of a select number of clergy. Second, these crimes went institutionally unchecked for many, many years in the largest denominations of Christianity–almost as a prelude to the broader cultural movements witnessed in many Western democratic societies.
Third, a tendency to reject the claims of victims when the prevailing evidence presents the vast majority of reported cases in the extreme cases of misconduct, i.e., rape, as evidentiarily supportable. False allegations happen, but these are a small minority and should not represent a false dichotomy of support. Institutions should establish robust processes to investigate all claims, addressing false allegations decisively while preserving trust in genuine victims.
Fourth, the diversification of the faith landscape of many Western cultures, particularly with the rise of non-religious communities and subsequent ways of life. One result is positive: Citizens clearly are more free than not to believe and practice as they wish. One negative result, the over-reach in non-religious commentary stereotyping churches as hotbeds of abuse, which creates problems–let alone being false. It doesn’t solve the problem, while misrepresenting the scope of it. It makes the work of the majority of clergy to create robust institutions of accountability for the minority of abusers more difficult and onerous. It’s comprehensively counterproductive.
If we want to reduce the incidence and, ideally, eliminate clergy-related abuse, for the first, we should acknowledge some clergy abuse without misrepresenting The Clergy of any Christian denomination as a universal acid on the dignity of those who wish to practice the Christian faith. It’s a disservice to interbelief efforts, makes the non-religious look idiotic and callous, and blankets every clergy with the crimes of every one of their seminarian brothers, and occasional sister, in Christ.
For the second, we should work on a newer narrative context for the wider story, see the partial successes of wider cultural movements, and inform of unfortunate trends in and out of churches for balance. For the third, we simply need to reorient incorrect instinctual reactions against individuals coming forward with claims as the problem rather than investigations as an appropriate response, maintaining reputation of accused and accuser, while having robust mechanisms for justice in either case. For the fourth, some in the non-religious communities, who see themselves as grounded in Reason and Compassion alongside Evidence, should consider the reasoning in broad-based accusation and consider with compassion the impacts on individuals in faith communities with the authority who are working hard to build institutions capable of evidence-based justice on one of the most inflammatory and sensitive types of abuse. Interfaith dialogue can be slow, quiet, but comprehensive and robust in the long-term–more effective and aligned with both the ideals of Christ or Reason, Compassion, and Evidence.
To these four contexts, journalists can provide a unifying conduit to the public in democratic societies to discuss the meaning of justice in the context of the Christian faith living in democratic, pluralistic societies. We cannot ‘solve’ the past errors, but can provide a modicum of justice for victims and create a future in which incidents are tamped to zero for a new foundation to be laid. Then ‘upon that rock,’ we do not have repeats in the Church as we have witnessed in other contexts discussed over the last few decades:
1991 – Tailhook Scandal (U.S. military sexual harassment scandal)
2012 – “Invisible War” documentary (exposing military sexual assault)
2014 – #YesAllWomen (response to the Isla Vista killings)
2017 – Australia’s Royal Commission Report (child sexual abuse in institutions)
2017 – #MuteRKelly (boycott of R. Kelly over sexual abuse allegations)
2018 – #MeTooBollywood (Bollywood’s reckoning with sexual misconduct)
2018 – #MeTooPublishing (exposing sexual harassment in the literary world)
2018 – #WhyIDidntReport (response to Brett Kavanaugh hearings)
2019 – Southern Baptist Convention Abuse Scandal (Houston Chronicle exposé)
2019 – K-Pop’s #BurningSun (sex trafficking and police corruption scandal)
2020 – #IAmVanessaGuillen (military abuse and murder case)
2021 – #FreeBritney (exposing exploitation and control of female artists)
2021 – Haredi Jewish Communities’ Abuse Cases (journalistic investigations by Shana Aaronson & Hella Winston)
2002-Present – Catholic Church Sexual Abuse Crisis (Boston Globe‘s Spotlight investigation)
2017-Present – #MexeuComUmaMexeuComTodas (Brazil’s movement against misogyny in media and politics)
2020-Present – #MeTooGymnastics (Larry Nassar’s abuse in U.S. gymnastics)
2020-Present – #SayHerName (Black women and LGBTQ+ victims of police violence)
2021-Present – #MeTooIncest (focus on childhood sexual abuse within families)
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Humanists International
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/22
Dr. Leo Igwe, Gary McLelland, and Victoria Gugenheim sit on a long list of people I greatly love. I wanted to write about something coming up in some of the humanist communities. One of those was the separation of Humanism and humanitarianism, related and distinct. I needed some quotes. When I asked, those three answered.
Many humanist organizations look to acquire funding from providers of grants, especially from national and local contexts in which finances are not readily available. They would make applications. They provide ideas and timelines, looking for legitimate backing. All good, fair, and aboveboard, the framing of the organization becomes the issue.
Fundamentally, they orient themselves as engaged in humanitarianism. If you want funding from humanist organizations, then the work should be for Humanism as a life rather than humanitarianism primarily.
How do these two relate? You can borrow different discipline terminology. Humanism is the moral dimension in an individual being’s world line. As we’re all thespians at this stage of life, we have choices before us. Each has ethical dimensions.
Global Humanism is a group predominantly composed of democratic, ethical, non-theist peaceniks. A natural bowl upon which humanitarian waters can rest and ripple. Humanism is like the pattern of motion. Humanitarianism is the actual water with the ripples or the air with the wind.
Humanism, the values, act as a theoretical framework. An invisible constellation of interrelated principles of action in the world relevant to human beings. As discussed earlier, in some sense, ethics remains inevitable once conscious embodied deliberative action enters the universe.
After begging and pleading a whole one time, humanist artist and body painter Victoria Gugenheim gave a nice coda on that definition. “Humanism is the theory; Humanitarianism should be the practice.”
So here we are, all conscious and such, what gives? Humanism can be more. Humanitarianism can be more.
As Gary McLelland, Chief Executive of Humanists International, said to me, “Humanism is the celebration of our shared human experience, embracing reason, compassion, and the pursuit of knowledge. It’s about recognizing our inherent dignity and worth. Humanitarianism, on the other hand, is the active expression of that Humanism, translating empathy into action to alleviate suffering and promote justice.”
I like that. The idea of using human experience as a metric, compassion as a driver, and reason and the pursuit of knowledge as an expansive sense of exploration of the world. You need evidence of the world. You need sensory experience. You need compassion for other creatures encountered. You need the capacity to reason about it. Those might be European flavours of Humanism translated into humanitarianism, though.
Dr. Leo Igwe is a longtime colleague and a prominent African humanist. What about an African flavour to Humanism?
Igwe, Founder of the humanist movement in Nigeria and Advocacy for Alleged Witches, said, “Humanism is an outlook that accords primary importance to humanity as opposed to divinity or the supernatural while humanitarianism stands for caring for the human being. By this definition to be a humanist one must be an atheist or an agnostic, one must be non theistic. But to be a humanitarian, one can be theistic or nontheistic. Too often, people confuse Humanism with humanitarianism. Some humanitarians mischaracterize themselves as humanists. This is understandable because both Humanism and humanitarianism resonate with focus and care for the human. Many people turn to humanists or claim to be humanists when when they face difficulties, need asylum or suffer persecutions. Yes humanists care for humanity but Humanism is not humanitarianism. It is important not to conflate Humanism and humanitarianism.”
That is more precise and makes a primary, integral distinction between the necessary non-theistic ingredient to Humanism and the theistically ambiguous, ambivalent, or agnostic input for humanitarianism. In a certain sense, to do humanitarian work is humanist, that’s true.
At the same time, you cannot decouple the individual from the acts. If individuals believe in a god or in doing moral acts they are doing so for the purposes of a god or a higher power, then they are not humanists.
To do a moral act within the framework of Humanism narrows the formulation of humanitarianism to the non-theist. In a way, non-theist humanitarianism doesn’t hope for a Heaven or fear a Hell. It acts in a frame of here-and-now and the non-fantastical. It is a superior ethical frame because it frames within the physical, the natural, and the informational.
The physical reality of the world around us consists of entirely natural laws and the relative reliability of information processing of cognitive beings such as ourselves. I love that. Humanism can provide a frame for humanitarianism but is not humanitarianism; however, when Humanism is needed for humanitarian acts, it provides a superior, more mature foundation for ethical acts without reliance on a supernatural being, whether in the Global North or the Global South.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): СокальINFO
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/21
Pavel Luzin is a Russian political scientist whose work dissects the evolution of Russia’s armed forces, defense-industrial complex, and space policy. He is a Visiting Scholar at the Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy at Tufts University, a Senior Fellow at both the Center for European Policy Analysis (CEPA) and the Saratoga Foundation and maintains an affiliation with the Jamestown Foundation. Luzin earned his PhD in International Relations from IMEMO in 2012, later teaching at Perm State University and working at IMEMO and the PIR Center. His analyses—published in outlets such as CEPA, the Jamestown Foundation, the Foreign Policy Research Institute, and Riddle—probe Russia’s defense budgets, force structure, industrial capacity, and the toll sanctions have taken on its space and technology sectors.
In this interview, Luzin contends that Russia’s war aims remain fundamentally revanchist even as the state itself grows weaker than it was in February 2022. The Kremlin, he argues, continues to fight on despite strategic defeat—sustained by massive wartime spending, industrial exhaustion, and external resupply from North Korea and Iran. Behind the façade of doctrinal continuity lies a hollowing military machine: acute shortages in electronics, machine tools, and trained officers, with more than 7,000 officer deaths confirmed. The critical measures, Luzin notes, are recruitment rates, attrition among officers, and the ability to sustain command capacity. He warns that only consistent Western support for Ukraine—and readiness to counter Russia’s future moves—can prevent Moscow from rebuilding the capacity to wage war again.
(The Fletcher School of Law and Diplomacy)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You describe a crisis of manpower, unchecked defense spending, and mounting hardware shortages. What indicators best reveal where the Kremlin’s true priorities lie—its soldiers, its rubles, or its weapons?
Pavel Luzin: Kremlin is prioritizing its goals of the war: elimination of Ukraine’s statehood and culture, elimination or at least strategic undermining of NATO and U.S. leadership and creation of a new world order comfortable for the Kremlin.
However, Russia’s current state is much worse than it was on the eve of February 2022, and this actual state of Russia means the war is lost. Consequently, the Kremlin is going to continue its warfare efforts at any cost in order to improve its state and to reverse the defeat. On the other hand, the recognition of Russia’s defeat means major domestic political and economic changes or even turbulence in Russia with uncertain risks for the Russian political elite.
Jacobsen: You’ve written extensively about shifts in Russian military thinking. What evidence points to genuine doctrinal change within the country’s military leadership, rather than just rhetorical adaptation?
Luzin: I don’t think there is a shift. There is a doctrinal continuity and evolving. However, the original strategy of revanchism appeared in the early 1990s is still the same: Russia must keep its great power status and dominance over its neighbors at any cost, U.S. role in the global affairs must be undermined, NATO must be undermined as well and Russia must take a role of guarantor of the European security (means Russia must be dominating over the European states). This strategy sounds crazy but it exists in the Russian documents and in the public statements of the Russian high-ranking persons.
Jacobsen: Following from the previous question, what represents rhetorical cover for material weakness?
Luzin: The material weakness exists and I cannot say what the people in the Kremlin know about this weakness and what they don’t. The officials say that Russia is undefeatable and produces as many weapons as it needs. However, the reality is different: Russia could hardly fight without the arms supplies from North Korea and Iran as early as late 2023. Also, what we know from the Russian industry is that its deterioration is ongoing and Ukraine makes this deterioration even faster with its strikes.
Jacobsen: Russia’s military leadership highlights structural changes at the top. How is elite churn reshaping command incentives?
Luzin: I do not see structural changes on the top. Yes, some people were replaced and some new command positions appeared like the split of the Western military district into two districts, Moscow and Leningrad, or like transforming brigades into divisions because the typical brigade is commanded by a colonel and typical division is commanded by a major general or lieutenant general. But what are the structural changes? The Kremlin has been incapable even to replace Gerasimov as a chief of the General Staff yet. The main command incentive today is avoiding responsibility for failures.
Jacobsen: What is the tightest bottleneck, e.g., electronics, machine tools, or labour, for the Russian defence-industrial systems?
Luzin: There is everything you mentioned.
Jacobsen: How sustainable is Russia’s admixture of domestic borrowing, inflation taxation, and off-budget lines for funding wartime procurement?
Luzin: Everything has its cost. Russia spent more than 40 trillion rubles directly on the war in 2022-2025. I do not mention years of preparations, indirect costs and huge losses of people. The cost of this cannot be measured by money.
However, every following month of the war leads the Russian budgetary system further to uncertainty because what Russians pay for the war today, they do not invest into their future, into the future of Russia.
Jacobsen: Shortages of fighting men is creating human capital stress. Beyond headlines, which lagging indicators capture the problem’s scale?
Luzin: We are following the balance between the dynamic of recruitment and the dynamic of losses. And Russia can hardly increase the number of its forces because recruits become gun fodder and do not survive for too long. Another lagging indicator is the number of losses among the officer corps. As for today, there are 7000+ Russian officers whose death in Ukraine is confirmed, and it is hard to replace these losses any time soon. And again that means Russia is incapable of increasing its armed forces because of a lack of officers.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Pavel.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): СокальINFO
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/19
Shelby Magid is the Deputy Director of the Atlantic Council’s Eurasia Center, where she oversees policy and programming on Ukraine and the broader region, leading initiatives at the intersection of security, justice, and human rights. She organizes high-level discussions and research on Russia’s war, recently moderating panels on the Russian Orthodox Church’s role in the conflict and on the abduction and repatriation of Ukrainian children. Magid frequently publishes analysis—including a Kyiv/Warsaw dispatch arguing that security is the essential foundation for any lasting peace—and briefs policymakers and media on sanctions, disinformation, and transatlantic coordination. She holds degrees from Central European University and Brandeis University.
In this conversation, Magid argues that sustaining U.S. bipartisan support for Ukraine through 2026 will depend largely on Donald Trump’s messaging and the perception that Ukraine can still prevail. Her priorities include tightening sanctions enforcement, accelerating Ukraine’s drone and munitions production, and strengthening U.S. air defenses. She also calls for credible, technology-driven ceasefire monitoring and emphasizes that the return of abducted Ukrainian children will require meaningful cooperation from the Kremlin.
(Atlantic Council)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are the fundamental swing factors for sustaining bipartisan support for Ukraine?
Shelby Magid: The bipartisan support for Ukraine has been consistently strong. The news cycle can change. Sometimes former President Trump’s comments can make it look like support is shifting, but within Congress and among the American population, as seen through polling, support has remained relatively stable. People empathize with and support Ukraine and disapprove of Russia and President Vladimir Putin.
There are ongoing debates about whether another package, such as a supplemental appropriation for weapons and funding, is necessary, with some people opposing it. Overall, however, support remains strong. The key factor right now is Donald Trump and his messaging, as he already has a base of support. If Trump were to say, “I want Ukraine to win next year” or “I want Ukraine to regain more of its territory,” and if he meant that and followed up by urging Congress to act, a package would likely move forward, providing additional economic or military support.
It might take the form of a loan. It might look different, but that could be the way forward. Public opinion is also critical here — for him, for Congress, and for how strong both sides appear. Currently, there is considerable messaging suggesting Russia is not as strong as it seems: its economy is under strain, its military is underperforming, and its territorial gains are slower than expected. That helps sustain support for Ukraine because it is one thing to back an underdog, but you do not want to back a lost cause. When it looks like Ukraine still has a real chance and Russia will not completely prevail, those are key factors.
Jacobsen: What are the demographics of those who do not support Ukraine?
Magid: It is mainly on the far right and far left — like the horseshoe of people not supporting. On the far left, they do not want more war. They call for peace, negotiations, the elimination of weapons, and an end to the fighting. On the far right, it might be “Ukraine is corrupt,” or “Ukraine will never win,” or “Russia has a point.” Some isolationists say, “We do not want anything to do with foreign conflicts, so why should we have anything to do with this one?” That is more on the fringes.
You also see a standard view that, fine, we want Ukraine to be okay, but it is not our problem, so we will not send more money. They are not actively supporting U.S. engagement. There are many misconceptions, too — both from Russian propaganda and simple misunderstanding — from people who say, “We do not want American boots on the ground in Ukraine.” That has never been proposed. Some people say they do not support it because they misunderstand what “support” means, which in this case has meant financial and military aid, not troop deployment.
Jacobsen: I appreciate that far-left and far-right framing—it suggests a divide between idealism and cynicism, yet both end up producing the same results. What specific tranche of aid or policy do you think could tangibly degrade Russia’s war-fighting capacity? Some observers point to a kind of parity in how each side frames its military strength. Still, Ukraine’s capabilities remain far more limited than Russia’s, especially across a frontline stretching more than 1,200 kilometers.
Magid: When you are asking about what specific tranche, do you mean U.S. support or international support for Ukraine?
Volodymyr Zelensky in 2022.
Jacobsen: International and U.S. support remain vital. Ukraine’s domestic capacity will continue to expand as long as the war endures, driven by the will to survive and defend the country. As one colleague told me early in my reporting, “Thank you, Canada, for the financial support — we do appreciate it. One footnote, however: money is not munitions. We need munitions.”
Magid: That is a double-edged sword because that was also earlier on. Canada has been great, but could do more, as could most countries. Financial support is needed currently in two ways. There is the financial bucket where Ukraine needs more money so it can produce more weapons and drones itself. There has been tremendous success in Ukraine’s drone innovation and warfare. However, they need more money; they could generate more revenue and complete the project faster than other countries.
It would also be beneficial for Russia to face greater financial restrictions. They are already weaker, but the existing sanctions are not being enforced effectively enough. They are not strong enough. The shadow fleet is a significant issue. There is more that can be done to hit that financial bucket and degrade Russia’s capacity. You see Ukraine right now using drones to hit Russia’s oil refineries, which they have called their own type of sanctions, because then Russia has less to sell. That has made an impact — there are gas shortages in Russia right now.
As for Western support, some urgently needed systems come from the United States, primarily for air defense. The considerable discussion this week is that President Zelensky is coming to Washington to meet with President Trump about defense in general. One aspect being discussed is the Tomahawk missile system, which has a long range and would allow Ukraine to strike deeper into Russia. Moreover, when I mention this, I always like to say that Ukraine is targeting logistics, supplies, and the bases that missiles are coming from in Russia — all military targets, not civilian — whereas Russia is targeting civilians in Ukraine.
Jacobsen: Is the deliberate targeting of civilians a sign that Putin lacks a coherent or winning strategy? After all, if you were truly winning, your focus would be on striking military—not civilian—assets.
Magid: There is something to that. However, part of Russia’s strategy is terrorism. They are trying to demoralize Ukrainian society and drive refugee waves, which would then put more pressure on Europe. As soon as the temperatures drop in Ukraine, Russia starts hitting energy infrastructure again, which can force people to leave and go into Europe. They have a history of committing war crimes, and even if they were winning on the battlefield — which they are not — they would continue to target civilians. They are targeting military sites as well, so I would not say they are only targeting civilians. However, they do launch massive attacks against entirely civilian areas and critical infrastructure, like water systems. You cannot call that a military target.
Jacobsen: Which third-country networks matter now?
Magid: Some networks matter for both Ukraine and Russia. On Russia’s side, they are majorly supported in this war by North Korea, Iran, China, and Belarus — though Belarus is in a slightly different category. The drones that Russia uses are Iranian, and they got the technology from Iran. North Korea sends large amounts of ammunition and missiles, and has reportedly sent soldiers. China supports Russia economically. India is also buying large quantities of Russian gas and oil, which helps sustain Russia’s economy. There are also reports — I need to verify the numbers — that tens of thousands of Cuban fighters are preparing to fight for Russia, which would make them the most significant foreign contingent of fighters. So there is this “bad boy autocratic club” that supports Russia.
Jacobsen: There are also some reports of Indians and others being tricked or scammed into fighting.
Magid: There are unfortunate stories about people from many countries being tricked into going to Russia. The numbers are in the single digits or dozens, but they are being sent to work in factories or signing up under pretenses. Others are being scammed from North Africa, thinking they are getting work permits, and then they are brought through Belarus to be pushed over the border as part of weaponized migration. A lot of that is happening. However, in countries supporting on a larger scale, those are the key ones. As for third countries, you see the entire Western and international order — the G7, the EU, the U.S., the U.K. — but also many countries in the Indo-Pacific. Taiwan, South Korea, Japan, and, of course, Canada have all been supportive. It is interesting to see how these networks operate, and what they provide is, of course, different.
Volodymyr Zelensky at the White House in August.
Jacobsen: What air defense and artillery production targets should the U.S. and Europe aim for in 2026?
Magid: I would say it is aspirational to speak about these targets in a quarterly fashion, because it takes so long to produce and finalize contracts. It has been an issue throughout the full-scale invasion — the slow pace of production from the U.S. and the EU. I know they are working on it, but the war still goes on. Air defense is the most urgent for Ukraine, as Russia is absolutely slamming them. The number of missiles and drones that Russia uses on a daily and nightly basis has increased drastically as it has scaled up production. Those supporting Ukraine also need to scale up their efforts.
One way to do that is to continue financial support for Ukraine. Ukraine has already scaled up domestic drone production and other sound systems. Co-production is also being explored — Denmark has been leading in this, and there is discussion about a potential U.S.–Ukraine drone deal. Other countries are looking to follow suit. This would involve sharing technology, investing more money, and maximizing production speed. I do not have specific expectations for a particular quarter in 2026, but I want to emphasize that there is a pressing need for all of this to happen quickly.
Jacobsen: How should guarantees, money, and capital be sequenced?
Magid: For a post-war Ukraine, it is a tricky question because the crux of it is what can happen now and what has to happen post-war. Demining is already happening in Ukraine, because there are different types. There is humanitarian demining — clearing civilian and agricultural areas that were mined — but then both Russians and Ukrainians have mined along the frontlines. You cannot demine that until the security situation is resolved. Areas that were occupied by Russia and have since been liberated — for instance, Kherson — still need to be demined now, and they are actively doing that. Just a couple of weeks ago, in Chernihiv Oblast, there was a humanitarian demining mission by an NGO that Russia attacked, killing some of the workers. This is a hazardous job, and Russia targets these responders.
For capital, Ukraine needs money now to keep its economy afloat. They need to pay government workers, first responders, teachers, and most importantly, soldiers. They need to buy food and weapons. Then there is also money for reconstruction. Some reconstruction is happening already. If your grandmother’s window is blown out, she needs it repaired this week; otherwise, she has to move. That can happen now. However, Mariupol, which is completely flattened and under Russian occupation, will need to be rebuilt once Ukraine regains control. That capital will not flow yet, and much of it will have to come from private companies.
Much of this is being discussed, but ultimately, post-war reconstruction cannot begin until stability is established. That is where the guarantees come in. Let us say there is a ceasefire — no one trusts Russia, nor should they. So just because there is a ceasefire without guarantees, capital is not going to flow in, and real reconstruction will not happen. People will not move back to Ukraine en masse until they feel it is stable and durable. It is all interconnected. However, the conversations are happening now because plans need to be in place. Different parts of the country are in various situations. You can work on the energy system in western Ukraine in ways you cannot in the east. Luckily, it is being looked at proactively.
Trump and Putin during the largely unproductive summit in Alaska.
Jacobsen: This brings to mind the difference between winning and simply not losing. A ceasefire and a peace deal aren’t the same thing—and a pause is something else entirely, especially in the context of the Kremlin’s behavior. What would a verifiable pause look like? Would it involve inspection regimes, limits on missile deployments, or clearly defined territorial arrangements?
Magid: It is interesting how the different terms play out. A pause could happen at any moment if Russia stopped firing at Ukraine. If they said, “We are going to have a pause,” that could lead to discussions on a ceasefire. Ukraine is not going to stop firing and defending itself until it knows that Russia is holding to the same standard. A pause could mean stopping missile strikes and halting fighting on the front lines.
Jacobsen: Which, to be clear, could be done at any time.
Magid: It could be done at any time.
Jacobsen: Because of one person saying so.
Magid: The onus is entirely on Putin and the Russian side. Ukraine is defending itself. As for a ceasefire, that is what the Ukrainians are calling for. What President Trump has also been calling for is an unconditional ceasefire. The Ukrainians have agreed to this; they are ready to do it at any moment. The Russians have rejected it many times.
As for what a ceasefire would look like, you would need some monitoring because it cannot just be a “he said, she said” situation. Russia has a long history of violating ceasefires, and Ukraine has already been through that. There are ongoing discussions about various mechanisms and formats that could be effective. One critical aspect is the need for external ceasefire monitors and international security guarantees. Ukraine has already experienced failures, like the Minsk negotiations, where there were large buffer zones and unarmed monitors, and that did not stop Russian hostilities. A more robust model would be necessary, involving Ukrainian forces, NATO observers, or neutral peacekeepers.
They would have to monitor a vast swath of land, so there would need to be a technological component — drones or satellite imagery, for example — because it is simply too large an area to monitor entirely by people on the ground. There would also need to be deterrence mechanisms. So it would have to be an interesting combination of factors, and there would have to be some U.S. role — not boots on the ground, necessarily, but something like satellite monitoring to make Russia actually listen and be deterred.
Jacobsen: This next one is fascinating—it combines the two subjects people are warned never to discuss at the dinner table: religion and politics. The Russian Orthodox Church now operates largely at the Kremlin’s behest, reinforcing many of the regime’s narratives. In the occupied territories, which of these narratives are actually taking hold, and how deeply are they resonating?
Magid: That is an interesting question. It is hard to answer. One way they are sticking is by eliminating all competing narratives. They have outlawed and persecuted other religious organizations, gone after Catholic priests and other spiritual leaders, tortured and killed them. They control the information space in this manner, working hand in hand with Kremlin narratives. They are putting out constant messaging — adjusted over time — emphasizing “family values,” “defending Russian speakers,” and “God is on our side.”
Those narratives are probably sticking more in Russia itself than in the occupied territories because it is hard to believe such propaganda when your neighbor was held in a basement and tortured. At the same time, the Church’s networks are being used for intelligence gathering and other nefarious activities.
I did an event with the Free Russia Foundation a couple of weeks ago, and they released a report on the Russian Orthodox Church and its role in supporting the war in Ukraine. They even consulted Russian clergy who are now in exile because they spoke out against the war and had to flee Russia. It is fascinating and very complex in many ways, because it gets into areas of faith that many of us in the U.S., Canada, and the West are simply unfamiliar with.
The idea that you should not weaponize the Church to declare a holy war — to bless people to go murder children — I think anyone can understand that.
It is important to emphasize that the Russian Orthodox Church is tied to the state and controlled in coordination with the Kremlin. However, there are believers within that community who do not support it, and there have been internal splits. I know people who practice Russian Orthodoxy and do not believe in supporting the war. So it is essential to separate the political structures from the faith community.
Jacobsen: How can the different avenues you mentioned—documentation, third-party mediation, and targeted sanctions—actually help return abducted Ukrainian children home? I’m thinking of that Michelle Obama–style appeal to “bring them home.” Within a reasonable timeframe—say, six to twelve months, if not sooner—what combination of pressure and diplomacy could make that happen in practice?
Magid: I wish there were a better answer or better news. There has been incredible documentation from the Ukrainian side and from third parties — for instance, Yale University has a lab tracking this issue. They have documented around 20,000 kidnapped children, though the actual number is likely higher. Some cases have detailed records — names, families, locations — but others are harder to verify, especially when orphanages were moved. Some parents are still actively trying to get their children back.
These mediation efforts have been largely unsuccessful. Over the years, the Ukrainian government has appealed to various leaders for help — the Pope, some countries in the Middle East, and others. There are working groups, but ultimately, Russia must agree to return the children. It is a double-edged sword because Putin is under indictment by the International Criminal Court for war crimes related to the abductions. In a way, Russia fears that returning the children would confirm the charges. So despite the documentation and mediation efforts, they remain hesitant.
There have been a few recent cases — Melania Trump said she engaged with Putin and helped secure the return of some children. It is similar to what we discussed earlier about a pause: could these children be returned at any time? Yes. It is entirely up to Putin. Many of the children could be given back to Ukraine immediately if the Russian authorities decided to do so.
Some cases are more complicated because Russia has changed the children’s identities — legally altering names, arranging adoptions, and essentially erasing records. In some instances, open-source investigators have identified children in Russian schools whose relatives in Ukraine are still searching for them.
The issue is not one of time; it is one of power and political will. There is a Ukrainian NGO called Save Ukraine that’s done extraordinary work — something like an underground railroad system — to bring some children home. They have succeeded in dozens of cases, which is remarkable, but still only a drop in the ocean.
Jacobsen: Any final thoughts or feelings based on the conversation today?
Magid: No, it has been a wide range of interesting questions — thank you.
Jacobsen: Thank you.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): СокальINFO
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/16
Alexander J. Motyl is a political scientist, historian, novelist, and professor of political science at Rutgers University–Newark. A leading specialist on Ukraine, Russia, the USSR, nationalism, revolutions, and empires, he has long been recognized for his unflinching analysis of power, ideology, and collapse in post-Soviet space.
Motyl previously served as associate director of Columbia University’s Harriman Institute, one of the foremost centers for the study of Russia and Eastern Europe. His scholarship includes Imperial Ends: The Decay, Collapse, and Revival of Empires—a landmark examination of how empires dissolve and reinvent themselves—and the co-edited volume The Holodomor Reader: A Sourcebook on the Famine of 1932–1933 in Ukraine, a defining contribution to understanding Soviet atrocity and Ukrainian national trauma. Beyond academia, he writes frequent analyses of the Russian–Ukrainian war for 19FortyFive, The Hill, and the National Security Journal, and has been featured in Columbia SIPA’s Journal of International Affairs. His recent essays explore themes of Western policy, Russian regime stability, and the long arc of decolonization across Eurasia.
In this interview, Motyl argues that the Kremlin’s war aims are fundamentally neo-imperial—not limited to territorial expansion but directed toward the erasure of Ukrainian statehood and identity itself. He situates Vladimir Putin within a centuries-long lineage of Russian imperial ideology, tracing continuities that stretch from the czarist era through Soviet dominance to the present authoritarian revival. Contrary to Kremlin narratives, Motyl dismisses NATO enlargement as a genuine catalyst for invasion, noting that Ukraine’s membership prospects were effectively nonexistent.
Instead, he portrays today’s Russia as a brittle, hyper-centralized regime marked by paralysis and overreach—a system in which misjudgment and misinformation are endemic. The elite’s passivity during the Prigozhin mutiny, he suggests, exposed the fragility of Putin’s power and the hollow performance of loyalty sustaining it. Motyl envisions plausible scenarios of post-Putin fragmentation, beginning not in Moscow but along the empire’s restive peripheries. He also dissects the parallel information war: expert analysis battling viral disinformation, think tanks competing with Telegram channels. Yet he ends with cautious optimism. The war, for all its devastation, has forced a global reckoning with Ukraine’s history, resilience, and agency—an awakening long overdue in Western political imagination.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This is a concern shared widely, from scholars in both East and West to ordinary Ukrainians living through the war. Why do you argue that Putin’s central objective is not merely the conquest of territory, or even of all Ukraine, but the erasure of Ukrainian statehood itself?
Alexander Motyl: It’s a question of the ideology that motivates him. It’s a Russian imperial ideology that goes back several hundred years—at least to the time of Peter the Great, arguably earlier—when Muscovy began its project of gathering territories it considered its own.
This ideology has existed for three or four centuries. It was at the core of the Russian imperial project before 1918 and the collapse of the empire. It was also central to the Soviet project. They didn’t call it Russian, but it was clearly a Russian-oriented or Russian-based state policy.
It has now become the core of Putin’s project. Even under Yeltsin in the 1990s, the rhetoric was imperial. The policies were half imperial and half democratic, and there was at least some hope that Russia might abandon its imperial pretensions. It might have—but Putin became prime minister in 1999, acting president at the end of that year, and president in 2000. Very quickly, he embraced this ideology, consistent with his background as a KGB officer, and it has driven his policies toward the former Soviet republics since he took office.
According to this ideology, Ukrainians, like Belarusians, do not really exist. They are, quite literally, seen as a plot by Western imperialist secret services.
They are portrayed as creations of the Germans, of the Austro-Hungarians, of the West in general. In other words, the notion that Ukraine deserves to be a separate state with its own national identity has been, in this view, foisted upon the so-called “Little Russians,” as Putin prefers to call them, by deranged nationalists under the influence of Western intelligence agencies.
From that point of view, the purpose of the war is to erase whatever claims Ukrainians might have to being Ukrainians, and to transform them into a passive “Little Russian” population that accepts subordination to the “Great Russian people.” Hence, the project is one of erasure.
That doesn’t necessarily mean Putin wants to kill everyone. However, many of his subordinates and propagandists have made that option explicit. They have openly said, “If we can’t convert you to Russianism or Little Russianism, we will kill you.” The former president of Russia, Dmitry Medvedev, has made this claim repeatedly in his public statements. So, that is at least an option on the table.
Preferably, from their perspective, it means getting rid of the so-called nationalists. And ironically, the Jewish Ukrainian president, Volodymyr Zelensky, is one of the foremost Ukrainian nationalists in their eyes. The goal is to remove people like him and replace them with a pliant regime, a compliant elite, and a submissive population—much like what the Russians hoped to achieve with Viktor Yanukovych, and what they have, in many ways, already achieved with Alexander Lukashenko and Belarus.
The Belarusians, despite having demonstrated their own sense of national identity in the mass protests a few years ago, have essentially been forced into submission. They caved. The Ukrainians resisted—and we’ll see how that turns out.
Putin during a military parade in Red Square.
Jacobsen: What do Western analysts or commentators typically misread about Russian aggression against Ukraine?
Motyl: For starters, the belief that it has something to do with NATO enlargement is one of the most important misreadings. It was clear from the very beginning, certainly by 2021 and 2022, and in fact every year since 1991, when Ukraine became independent, that Ukraine’s chances of becoming a NATO member were essentially zero.
Ukraine’s chances of joining NATO were exactly zero in 2013 and 2014, and they were exactly zero again in 2021 and 2022. The Russians could not have been unaware of that fact, because the Ukrainians knew it, the Europeans knew it, and NATO knew it. Yes, back in 2008, at the Bucharest Summit, NATO did declare that the “future of Ukraine lies with NATO.” Still, that statement, along with a dollar, would get me a ride on the New York City subway.
There were no intentions whatsoever to expand NATO to include Ukraine. In addition, Putin must have known—as his intelligence services certainly did—that the so-called NATO armies were in dreadful shape. They were in no position to launch an attack on Russia.
NATO was a paper tiger. Ukraine’s chances of joining this paper tiger were essentially nil, and Putin had to have known that. So why did NATO membership for Ukraine matter to him? Not because of any genuine security threat—that was all a smokescreen. The real issue is that if Ukraine were to join NATO and later the European Union, it would mean that Ukraine would be lost to Russia forever. That’s why it mattered.
It would signify Ukraine becoming part of what Putin calls “the West,” or whatever remains of it after the Trump era. That is what truly concerned him. It wasn’t about a military threat. He has even admitted as much on multiple occasions—most recently at the Valdai Discussion Club meeting in St. Petersburg—where he said NATO poses no threat to Russia. If he says that today, after more than three years of war, he would have said the same four years ago if pressed.
So that’s mistake number one—the fundamental misreading. It skews everything, because it shifts the blame for the war onto NATO, supposedly the aggressor, and onto Ukraine, as if it harboured evil intentions toward Russia.
In reality, that’s absurd. Back in 2014, Ukraine had only about 7,000 battle-ready troops. By 2022, the situation had improved somewhat, but had it not been for the thousands of volunteers who immediately joined the armed forces after the invasion, Ukraine likely would have fallen. So Ukraine posed no threat—no security threat whatsoever, not even an imaginable one—to the Russian Federation.
The only other plausible explanation for his fear of NATO is that he is deeply paranoid—perhaps even pathologically so. In other words, he appears to have serious psychological problems. He is incapable of accepting that NATO, essentially a paper tiger, truly was a paper tiger.
He cannot imagine that the intelligence his own security services provide might actually be accurate. That’s possible—plausible, even—but in any case, it has nothing to do with the reality of NATO enlargement. It has everything to do with Putin’s personal phobias.
The other major misconception, which still hasn’t been fully corrected, concerns the idea that Putin is somehow a “normal” leader—a man like one of us. There’s plenty of variation within what we call “the West,” and of course, it has its own flaws. Not everyone in the West is rational or devoted to human rights and democratic values. But it should have been evident to anyone with even a minimal understanding of the Soviet Union that a KGB officer was never going to be at the forefront of defending human or national rights.
That should have been self-evident to anyone who knows the history of the KGB and its predecessors in the Soviet system. Putin joined the KGB voluntarily in the early 1970s, at the height of the Soviet crackdown on the dissident movement. He knew exactly what he was doing and why.
To imagine that such a man would have democratic leanings or a Western sense of rationality—concerned with rights, the rule of law, or individual liberty—is absurd. He was not only a KGB operative but also a product of the Russian elite. And as we’ve already discussed, he is steeped in the Russian imperial ideology. It’s hardly surprising, then, that he is someone who believes deeply in power, in force, and in Russia’s need to “be made great again.”
Expecting this kind of individual to behave normally or to share Western values was wishful thinking. Remember when George W. Bush said he looked into Putin’s eyes and “saw his soul”? I wish I had those eyeglasses.
There are many other mistakes Western observers have made. Let me end with a third one. We’ve talked about NATO and Putin, and the third is the persistent belief that Russia is not an empire—or at least not a deeply fractured multinational state.
This misconception was already evident in the 1980s, when most Western governments and analysts were unwilling to acknowledge the importance of the non-Russian peoples within the Soviet Union. I say this as someone who has studied and written a dissertation on the non-Russian nationalities. Back in the early to mid-1980s, people like me were considered strange—eccentric, even—for focusing on them.
It was widely believed that there was no point in studying the non-Russian nationalities because, as one scholar once told me at a conference, “They don’t matter.” As it turned out in 1989, 1990, and 1991, they mattered enormously. Had it not been for them, the Soviet Union might actually have continued to exist.
The inability to recognize that Russia has an imperial structure—or at least to understand that it consists of a variety of deeply dissatisfied nationalities—was a fundamental problem. It made it very difficult for Western analysts to understand what was happening in the 1980s under Gorbachev, and it continues to distort their understanding of Russia’s relationship with its former Soviet republics today.
Danish troops during NATO training exercises. (NATO)
Jacobsen: On that point, how durable is Russia’s domestic “consent” for a long war? What are the potential or plausible triggers for regime fracture or collapse?
Motyl: Analysts in this field, as with nearly every question, are divided into two camps. Some believe that Putin is firmly in charge, that all is well, and that the system will survive even after he’s gone—for any number of reasons.
Then there’s the other group, to which I belong, that believes the system is fragile and brittle. Putin and the regime are in trouble, and scenarios predicting the possible collapse of the Russian Federation are neither unlikely nor impossible. In fact, they are becoming increasingly likely.
I say that for several reasons. The most obvious is the toll of the war. Russia has likely lost over a million soldiers, if we include killed and seriously wounded. Its economy, as nearly everyone now agrees, is in serious trouble.
Optimists say it could sustain the war until 2027. Pessimists suggest a perfect storm could emerge as early as late 2025. In any case, there’s a growing consensus that major trouble lies ahead and that the war will eventually become unsustainable.
The military and the economy are in trouble, and the population is beginning to feel the strain. Inflation is eroding living standards. Those employed in the militarized sector—roughly half the population—are doing relatively better, or at least less badly, than others. But the other half, those in the consumer sector, are facing increasing hardship.
Then there are Russia’s elites—the political, coercive, and economic elites. Most have been co-opted, but all have lost a great deal since the war began.
As we saw during the Prigozhin affair two years ago—the short-lived march on Moscow—the real significance wasn’t Prigozhin himself. The key revelation was that as he gathered his forces and advanced toward the capital, no one within the army, the FSB, or the National Guard acted. They watched to see how it would unfold.
To me, that signaled not loyalty, but a striking lack of enthusiasm—at best, tepid support—for Putin’s regime.
That’s the background. More immediately, Putin has constructed a highly centralized political system. I’ve been calling it fascist since about 2008. Some agree; others object to the label. But whatever we call it—autocracy, dictatorship, authoritarianism—the fact remains that virtually all power is concentrated in Putin’s hands.
That centralization makes governance inefficient. We know from other historical examples that subordinates tend to tell such leaders what they want to hear, not what they need to know. It’s a system built on buck-passing and corruption—deep, pervasive corruption. And because so much depends on a single man’s decisions, the entire structure is brittle.
Given his position and the filtered information he receives, Putin is especially prone to serious errors. Some like to call him a “grand chess master.” As someone who actually plays chess—not quite at the grandmaster level, but enough to recognize one—I can tell you he’s very far from it. At best, he’s a mediocre player.
The point is that this kind of overcentralized, self-deluding system leads to catastrophic decisions—like forcing Viktor Yanukovych to abandon Ukraine’s association agreement with the European Union in 2013 or launching the full-scale invasion of Ukraine in 2022. These were stupid, unnecessary, and self-defeating moves.
And this matters for Russia’s future. Sooner or later, Putin will go. It might be from natural causes—he’s 73, and it’s not clear he’s in good health. Or he could be brought down by the growing complications and crises the war itself has created.
The devastation of Russia’s economy has created conditions that strongly resemble those in countries that have experienced coups d’état or political collapses. All the classic preconditions for a coup are present in Russia today, just as they were in many postcolonial, developing, or even developed states at moments of crisis. At this point, it’s simply a matter of enough people within the system deciding to act.
Everything else is already in place. If and when Putin leaves—and he will, either for natural reasons or through removal in some form of coup—it will have profoundly destabilizing consequences for the regime he’s built.
Think of the regime as a wheel with Putin as the hub. Remove the hub, and the wheel cannot hold. It won’t necessarily collapse overnight—political systems rarely do—but its ability to function will be severely compromised. A successor would struggle enormously to consolidate power, if only because Putin has been in control for 26 years. He has deliberately fused his personal authority with the state itself. L’État, c’est moi—“I am the state”—applies quite accurately in his case.
So, in the immediate aftermath of his departure—which could happen tomorrow, or a year or two from now, for any number of reasons—the regime’s institutional structure will weaken. A brutal power struggle will almost certainly erupt. This has always been the case in Russian history—Imperial, Soviet, and post-Soviet alike. And during that struggle, combined with economic collapse and military defeat, Moscow’s ability to maintain control over the peripheries will decline dramatically.
We saw something similar during the late Soviet period under Mikhail Gorbachev. All political energy was consumed by the struggle in Moscow, which both allowed and compelled the non-Russian republics to seek independence. Many initially opposed it, but they eventually realized it was the only means to preserve local power and survive amid systemic decay.
I’m hardly the first to draw that comparison. Several Russian economists and analysts have also made it.
Given all these contingencies—and they are contingencies, not certainties—if they were to align, it’s entirely conceivable that the Russian Federation could begin to fragment. My own view is that the first to go might be Chechnya, ironically, one of the places many assume least likely to break away. But Chechnya already functions with significant autonomy and possesses its own army. All it would need to do is say “no” to Moscow.
If that happened, others—Tatarstan, Bashkortostan, Dagestan, Ingushetia, and so on—could follow. Should they succeed, regions like Yakutia and other far-flung republics might join the movement.
As I said, these are all “ifs”—but they are not implausible ones. String them together in the correct sequence, and a scenario of Russian fragmentation becomes quite imaginable.
Jacobsen: Open-source intelligence has become an essential field after more than a decade of Russian aggression against Ukraine. We’ve seen a flood of disinformation—deliberately fabricated falsehoods—intertwined with misinformation, or data that is inaccurate or misinterpreted yet still spreads widely.
Suppose there’s a regime change in Moscow—or even if Russia settles into a kind of hybrid status quo that lasts for years. In that context, what becomes of the information war? In the West, particularly in the United States, we’ve watched commentators—more personalities than scholars—build vast platforms that often function, knowingly or not, as amplifiers of Kremlin propaganda.
How do we counter that influence as the conflict and its narratives continue to evolve?
Motyl: That’s a tricky question—one I wrestle with almost daily when I write my columns, whose purpose is, at least in part, to persuade people that there are wrong ways of seeing the world and better, if not perfectly correct, alternatives.
Within the broader analytical and journalistic community, things are generally sound. There’s a widespread understanding that Putin is a tyrant—or at the very least, a dictator—and that he launched a war that was both unnecessary and, as Trump once called it, “ridiculous.” In that regard, Trump was actually correct: the war is absurd.
So, in the expert community—though there are exceptions, some serious, some bordering on foolishness—most people grasp the fundamental realities. These are thoughtful individuals who may make serious mistakes, but you can engage them in rational discussion.
Where things get far more problematic is outside that expert sphere—among the broader public, non-specialist commentators, and specific segments of the media ecosystem.
I’d include you in the journalist category. My experience with journalists is that they usually try very hard—and often quite successfully—to get into the background details of a story. They don’t just blithely talk about “Ukrainian neo-Nazis.” They ask: do they exist? If so, where are they, and in what numbers? They ask serious questions.
Jacobsen: When did Jewish neo-Nazis start running countries?
Motyl: That’s the sort of absurd claim that should be obvious nonsense to anyone. In any case, the expert community and most journalists are doing relatively well. The problem arises in the more popular analytical fields—when we’re talking about figures like Tucker Carlson.
These people have huge platforms. They’re listened to and believed by audiences who generally don’t seek out other sources of information. And by that, I don’t mean my columns—they could read reputable journalists across a range of outlets to get alternative views or nuanced perspectives. But they don’t. So there’s a kind of bifurcation in the United States. I can’t really speak for Canada.
Jacobsen: The biggest joke I’ve heard is that money is helpful—but money is not munitions.
Motyl: That’s a good line. And that’s where things get problematic—when you go deeper into public perception. Popular understanding often doesn’t exist, or it’s based on vague impressions. Public opinion surveys indicate that most MAGA supporters, as well as most Americans, support assisting Ukraine, which appears to be good news on the surface.
But when you dig deeper, you find that many don’t know where Ukraine is or what the war is actually about. So it’s hard to gauge how deep that support really runs. Still, one must be grateful for small mercies—those limited but positive sentiments do matter.
The problem in the United States, at least when it comes to Russia, Ukraine, and misinformation, is that there’s strong reason to believe that many decision-makers within the Trump administration—I won’t name names—got their information from Fox News, Tucker Carlson, Laura Loomer, and others like them, rather than from academics, experts, or the analytical community, or what’s left of the CIA, FBI, and other professional institutions.
These organizations possess deep expertise, yet it is often dismissed or derided. It’s not regarded as legitimate, at least not by the MAGA crowd. They seem to prefer a know-nothing approach to policymaking—a deliberate rejection of knowledge in favour of ideological certainty.
And it’s not just that they disagree with experts who hold different views. Even those who share some perspectives and can argue intelligently with evidence aren’t being listened to as they should be.
The decimation of the intelligence community exacerbates these problems, much like the hollowing out of the State Department and USAID. Many experienced professionals who once played vital roles, even secondary ones, in the formulation of policy have been pushed out or left in frustration.
That’s not just bad in the short term—it’s disastrous for the medium and long term. Institutions depend on institutional memory. They need, as it were, some old hands to guide the younger generation—or at least to provide alternative perspectives. Of course, given my age, that’s precisely the sort of thing you’d expect me to say.
That said, here’s the good news. If you were to survey the academic community, the expert community, the general public, and policymakers—not just in the United States, but also in Canada and Western Europe—today versus 20, 30, or 40 years ago, the difference in knowledge would be enormous.
Back then, the level of understanding was infinitesimally trim compared to today. People had virtually no idea about Ukraine. They had gained more knowledge about Russia. But many couldn’t have told you that Estonia, Kazakhstan, or Georgia even existed. They knew Poland and Hungary, perhaps, but even that knowledge was quite limited.
The example I like to give is this: thirty years ago, you could have fit all the books and articles published in English about Ukraine on a single bookshelf. Today, that same amount is produced every year. We’re talking about an exponential growth in knowledge, understanding, interest, and critique. It works both ways, of course—support and criticism—but there’s simply no comparison between now and thirty or forty years ago.
Ultimately, I’m optimistic. Developments are heading in the right direction. The war, for all its tragedies, has had one particularly salutary consequence: it has significantly deepened global knowledge about Ukraine, Russia, and the region as a whole in ways that would not have occurred before 2022.
So, in that respect, there’s reason to be reasonably optimistic about the future.
Jacobsen: Alex, thank you for your time today. I appreciate it—it’s been a pleasure to meet you.
Motyl: My pleasure, Scott. Thank you very much. This was fun. And apologies for going on and on—I droned like a Ukrainian drone.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The New Enlightenment Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/17
What evidence threshold should resolve the Kamloops residential school claims?
Frances Widdowson is a Canadian political scientist, author, and commentator known for critical analyses of Indigenous policy, higher education, and academic governance. A former associate professor at Mount Royal University in Calgary, she co-authored the book Disrobing the Aboriginal Industry and has written widely on evidence standards, public funding accountability, and the effects of ideology on institutions. Widdowson has served on the board of the New Enlightenment Project and participates in public debates about residential schools, academic freedom, and policy formation. Her work, often controversial, emphasizes universal truth claims, methodological rigour, and open inquiry. She produces research, commentary, and talks.
In this interview with Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Frances Widdowson argues that debates around residential schools hinge on claims of genocide, the nature of truth, and funding accountability. She maintains that Kamloops relied on ground-penetrating radar showing 215 anomalies, not confirmed graves, and notes that no excavations have verified remains there. Citing Pine Creek excavations that uncovered rocks, she criticizes the conflations between “unmarked” and “clandestine” graves and urges the use of transparent methods and excavation. Widdowson says media practices amplify premature conclusions, while dissenters face professional penalties. She frames the dispute as one between Enlightenment standards and relativism, calling for evidence-based policy and proportional public discourse.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: All right, today we’re here for the New Enlightenment Project with the wonderful Frances Widdowson, who has served on the board of the New Enlightenment Project. Thank you very much for your service. Today, we’re going to talk about a significant error and the contexts that developed from that point. It’s a big topic, and we’ll see how far we can go before we’re out of steam. Big picture: What is the linchpin of the controversy? If you were to pull that out, there would be no controversy.
Dr. Frances Widdowson: That is a difficult question. I do not know if there is a single linchpin, but one is the claim of genocide—whether the residential school system constituted genocide. Another is the nature of truth—whether truth is objective or subjective. A third major factor—though I am not sure it is accurate to call it a linchpin—is whether Indigenous groups should determine how they spend funds, with one view holding that non-Indigenous people should have no say. Together, these have created conditions for an ongoing dispute that Canada has not fully reckoned with. In my view, the Kamloops case is especially significant; once it is resolved, we can better address other claims.
In Kamloops, to frame the general picture: investigators did not use LiDAR; they used ground-penetrating radar (GPR) to survey parts of the former school site. Early communications spoke of “the remains of 215 children” being “confirmed” but there has been no excavation. The community said that it would excavate in 2021 and 2022, but not one shovel has been put in the ground.
Jacobsen: The public discourse seemed to jump from “anomalies detected” to stronger claims. People sometimes do this with UFOs: they start with “unidentified” and leap to “aliens.” With GPR, there were anomalies; some observers inferred specific conclusions. What claims did you make, how were they misinterpreted, and how did that add fuel to the controversy?
Widdowson: Are you asking about the claims made by Tk’emlúps te Secwépemc, or about my claims?
Jacobsen: Your claims—specifically, your claims about the Indian Band, and also about the broader Canadian commentariat, which have had many opinions on this as well.
Widdowson: My claims include: first, that the residential schools were not genocidal; second, that there is no confirmed evidence of clandestine burials at Kamloops based on what is public; third, that truth is universal—there is no such thing as “my truth” and “your truth,” only belief and reality. Finally, because the Band received federal funding in the wake of the 2021 announcement—reporting has tallied this at roughly $12.1 million across related supports—accountability requires completing proper archaeological work. As of recent public reporting, no human remains have been exhumed and confirmed at Kamloops, and technical decisions about excavation have been a matter of community process.
So, those are what have been contested. There’s also the broader area of residential schools, which got me into trouble as well, because I argued about the educational benefits they provided. Indigenous communities—the Bands—did not have formalized educational systems. What they had was often described as “looking, listening, and learning.”
For children to be taught to read and write, and to gain the skills needed to participate in a modern economy, some form of structured system had to be created. Indigenous adults could not provide it at the time because they had not been taught literacy themselves. Given the logistical circumstances in Canada in the late 1800s, the residential school boarding model was seen as the approach that would provide the most consistent benefits. Studies from that period suggested that schools based in communities often struggled with attendance, as children would leave for hunting trips and return having forgotten much of what they had learned.
So there was a rationale, at that time, for creating residential schools as boarding schools. Of course, they also caused immense problems. The separation of children from their families led to cultural disconnection, and the fact that churches operated the schools created additional issues. I am not a fan of religious education for anyone, but that was the way things were structured at the time.
Still, when I said the residential schools provided an educational benefit that would not otherwise have been available, it was considered unacceptable. That statement was cited in the petition to have me fired.
Jacobsen: Have there been further excavations? I recall you had a contentious interview—sometimes personal and adversarial—about potential excavations. You inquired about whether further investigation would be conducted, and the interviewer, a person working for CBC at the time, essentially stated, “I just think we should believe them and leave it at that.” That seemed to elevate opinion over evidence. What are your issues with that framing? Also, have there been further archaeological investigations so we can check the claims? If there are 200-plus anomalies and there is concern, surely more can be done.
Widdowson: The only excavation conducted in the residential school context since the Kamloops announcement was at Pine Creek in Manitoba. A Knowledge Keeper had said they believed children were buried in the basement of the church. Ground-penetrating radar (GPR) identified 14 anomalies that seemed to present like burials. When the site was excavated, however, they found only rocks and no human remains. That is the one significant case so far where excavation has been carried out.
At Kamloops, nothing further has been done beyond the GPR survey. In 2021, the study identified about 215 “targets of interest,” often described publicly as unmarked graves. In January 2022, community leaders—including Manny Jules and Ted Gottfriedson Jr.—stated that a decision had been made by the 13 family heads to proceed with exhumations and to return the children to their home communities. However, exhumation presupposes the existence of remains, and excavation has not yet occurred. As of the most recent public reporting, no remains have been confirmed through excavation at Kamloops.
And then in May 2022, Rosanne Casimir—when interviewed by Rebel News journalist Drea Humphrey—said they hadn’t decided whether to excavate or not. That was a change from earlier statements.
Jacobsen: We should not speculate, but we can at least note there was a shift.
Widdowson: Yes. We have a series of people saying different things at different times. I became interested in whether this could amount to fraud. I asked an AI system—Grok—to analyze it under the legal definition of fraud. The answer was nuanced: it could be fraud, but it depends on the circumstances.
If they took money while intending never to excavate, that could constitute fraud. If they initially planned to excavate but later changed course due to community concerns, then it would not meet the legal threshold of fraud. According to public comments from Manny Jules and Ted Gottfriedson Jr., the 13 family heads had agreed to excavation. But if some community members later opposed it, the leadership might have shifted direction. In that case, the money technically should have been returned, since it was not spent as initially specified.
Instead, funds have been redirected into related initiatives—such as memorials, ceremonies, and grief counselling. The official line now is that the Band is still “investigating,” but there is no publicly available formal documentation clarifying what that process means. Blacklock’s Reporter obtained documents indicating the original application included plans for excavation and DNA forensic analysis. So there was a concrete plan at one point.
From 2021 to 2023, money was allocated for excavation, forensic work, and related supports such as grief counselling. The most frustrating part, in my view, is that despite no excavation being done, the federal government recently provided an additional $12.5 million. That brings the total to around $25 million.
Jacobsen: And what was that additional $12.5 million earmarked for?
Widdowson: It is for a healing center to support people dealing with trauma.
Jacobsen: But that raises questions: will it use best-practice, evidence-based treatments, or will it rely on other, less rigorous approaches under the banner of “healing”?
Widdowson: Some of these approaches may have some efficacy, but broadly, they do not. The difficulty is that in Indigenous policy, there is often an emphasis on “other ways of knowing,” which are contrasted against so-called colonial mindsets. This is the larger problem with the indigenization agenda: it resists the concept of universal truth.
Instead, truth is treated as relative—whatever the knowledge keepers say is true becomes accepted as accurate. But that does not work in a modern society. To develop policy, leaders must be accountable for their decisions. The ideal is that you propose a course of action and justify
why it is preferable to another. That requires systematic analysis. It presupposes the existence of some universal standard of truth. Indigenous leaders have often resisted that framework.
Jacobsen: That touches on more profound philosophical questions—concepts like intersubjectivity and intersubjective agreement. We don’t need to plunge into ontology and epistemology 101 here. However, this raises an essential definitional issue.
In coverage—including in outlets like The New York Times—terms such as “mass grave,” “unmarked grave,” “missing child,” and “genocide” have been used, sometimes loosely and prematurely. I am not saying these terms all appeared in one article, but in the broader commentary, they are being conflated. Especially on sensitive issues, precision is essential. So, let’s clarify: how should we define “mass grave,” “unmarked grave,” “missing child,” and “genocide” in this context?
Widdowson: “Mass grave” is usually defined as more than three people buried together. I have also heard it described simply as more than one. The distinction matters because the point is to determine whether a large number of people were buried together, as opposed to a few individuals. The term generally implies foul play, but that is not always the case. Epidemics—like the Spanish flu—sometimes required communal burials because there was no time or resources for individual coffins. Canada has several examples of that.
“Unmarked grave” is also complicated. It is often assumed to mean clandestine burial. But traditions vary. Many Indigenous cultures historically did not use permanent markers, so unmarked graves are common in pre-contact contexts. The more pressing issue today is that cemeteries that once had markers—typically wooden crosses—lost them over time. As the wood decayed, graves became “unmarked” even though they were initially identified.
If the grave markers were not maintained, they would deteriorate and disappear. That is why today there are so many “unmarked graves” that were once marked. In the Indigenous context, especially with residential school cemeteries, this is often what “unmarked graves” refers to.
Then, of course, there are clandestine burials, which by definition are unmarked. Those are graves created to hide a death under suspicious or criminal circumstances. The assumption of something nefarious is inherent in the word “clandestine.” The confusion arises because the “Indigenous industry”—by which I mean lawyers, consultants, and activists who benefit from transfer payments and funding initiatives—leans into this conflation. They rely on the public not distinguishing between cemeteries where markers decayed naturally and genuinely clandestine burials.
The same problem exists with the term “missing children.” People hear “missing” and assume the Latin American sense of “the disappeared”—people abducted, murdered, and hidden in secret graves. That is not what is generally meant in the Canadian residential school context. Here, “missing” usually refers to children who died at the schools, were buried in cemeteries near the institutions, but whose resting places are unknown because of poor record keeping and deteriorated markers. These were not disappearances in the criminal sense.
For example, former MP Romeo Saganash has spoken about his brother, who died at the residential school in Moose Factory before Romeo was born. His brother is buried in the cemetery there. Later, a CBC journalist in the family located the grave and showed it to his mother. The mother chose not to have the remains returned to Quebec. That is a tragic family story, but it is not the same thing as a child being abducted and disappearing.
Another example often cited is journalist Tanya Talaga, whose great-grandmother Annie died in an asylum, not a residential school. The burial site, near Toronto’s Gardiner Expressway, had been abandoned and was now just a grassy lot. The family held a tobacco ceremony there. That situation may be sad, but again, it is not equivalent to saying Annie “disappeared” in the sense used in Latin America. The body was buried, the records were poor, and the cemetery had been neglected. Conflating those categories creates misunderstanding.
Jacobsen: How do you distinguish media error from institutional error?
Widdowson: Well, media errors can overlap with institutional mistakes. An institutional error is a more systemic problem. Many of today’s media errors are institutional because outlets often fail to critically examine specific claims. A media error, narrowly, might be The New York Times calling Kamloops a “mass grave.” That was a journalistic mistake. However, the fact that the paper has never corrected or removed the article is an institutional failure, as it reveals a lack of systemic checks.
So, a media error can be a simple reporting mistake. But when those errors persist uncorrected, or are reinforced by editorial policy, they become institutional.
Jacobsen: And you are making scientific claims too. Under a correspondence theory of truth, the standard is simple: if excavation at Kamloops uncovered at least three bodies in one place, that would verify the claim of a mass grave. If not, then the claim is falsified. At present, the standard has not been met; therefore, the original claims should not stand. Correct?
Widdowson: Exactly.
Jacobsen: Let’s move to one of the more difficult areas. Do you accept the Truth and Reconciliation Commission’s (TRC) death counts and methodology in principle?
Widdowson: That’s controversial. Many numbers get thrown around. For example, Sean Carleton, an Indigenous Studies professor at the University of Manitoba, has claimed the TRC found 4,000 children died in residential schools. As far as I know, that is not accurate.
I haven’t done a full investigation myself, but researchers like Nina Green and Michelle Stirling have. There is a page in one TRC volume that records the names of 423 children who actually died at the schools. That number refers to documented deaths occurring at residential schools.
Beyond that, other children died while enrolled but not at the schools themselves—some in their home communities, others in hospitals. Take Kamloops as an example: there are 49 recorded names of deceased children associated with the school. Of those, 25 did not die at the school; they died in their communities or in accidents elsewhere.
So, 423 is the confirmed number of in-school deaths. That figure is probably low, but it is a grounded figure. There is another number, about 800, which has come from double-counting across reports. Then there’s 3,000, another figure that has been circulated, partly due to the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation (NCTR) at the University of Manitoba. The NCTR is the official archive of records, and at one point, it produced a memorial banner listing the names of the deceased; however, the methodology has not always been consistent.
The 4,000 figure that Carleton cites likely comes from the NCTR memorial banner. But that banner includes many names of people who never attended residential schools. For example, Helen Betty Osborne—an Indigenous woman murdered in The Pas, Manitoba, in 1971—is listed. Her tragic death had nothing to do with residential schools, yet her name is included. The
banner was intended as a broad memorial, not a precise research record. So to cite it as evidence of residential school deaths is misleading.
What we can say with certainty is that 423 names are documented as deaths occurring at the schools themselves. Beyond that, the numbers require careful, systematic analysis rather than being repeated as slogans.
Jacobsen: Is there a better methodology than ground-penetrating radar (GPR)—something more cost-efficient, higher resolution, and with a greater degree of certainty?
Widdowson: I asked a GPR expert about this while working on a documentary about Kamloops. The expert—who was so cautious about anonymity that we were not even allowed to film their shoes—brought a GPR unit out to Kananaskis. We tested it on a grassy patch, and it identified an anomaly almost identical to the one reported at Kamloops. When we excavated, we found a cement block. So, the anomaly was artificial, but not a burial site.
That illustrates the limitations of GPR: it detects soil disturbances, but many things can cause disturbances. The expert mentioned that there are other technologies Sarah Beaulieu could have used in Kamloops. Some involve chemical analysis of soils, which can sometimes differentiate human decomposition from other disturbances.
Jacobsen: LIDAR has been mentioned—what does it do in this context?
Widdowson: LIDAR—light detection and ranging—is a remote sensing technology that uses lasers to create detailed three-dimensional maps of surfaces. Aircraft emit laser pulses and measure the time it takes for them to bounce back. The data produces a “point cloud,” which can be used to generate accurate digital elevation models. LIDAR is excellent for mapping landscapes, but it does not detect burials.
The expert I spoke with mentioned two other geophysical methods that could have complemented GPR, but I do not recall the exact names. The key point is that relying solely on GPR, without corroborating technologies or excavation, produces ambiguous results.
The worst part of all this is that Sarah Beaulieu gave the Tk’emlúps Band the impression—or perhaps they read it into her words—that her GPR survey was a confirmation. It was interpreted as validating what the knowledge keepers had said. Band members believed this was proof. I think that was, at least in part, because of Beaulieu’s irresponsibility.
We saw a similar case captured on film in the documentary What Remains, which Simon Hergott and I produced—the New York Times had released footage of a ground-penetrating radar survey where Dr. Terence Clark of the University of Saskatchewan was instructing graduate students. Kisha Supernant from the University of Alberta was also present. At one point, Clark told the students, “You can imagine a child lying on its side in a pit.” The students began crying.
That was incredibly irresponsible. My GPR expert explained that anomalies could be caused by any number of things: cobbles, changes in soil density, rocks, cement blocks, and animal burrows. To suggest to students that they should visualize a child’s body was wildly inappropriate. It bordered on an ethical breach. Archaeologists are supposed to uphold professional standards of impartiality and objectivity. What happened there was the opposite.
Jacobsen: That reminds me of the debate around “decolonization therapy.” I looked at the codes of conduct from the British Psychological Society, the Canadian Psychological Association, the American Psychological Association, and international guidelines. All of them stress
impartiality, maximizing objectivity, and minimizing bias in therapeutic practice. Yet decolonization therapy explicitly politicizes the therapeutic space. The whole point of treatment is to create an apolitical space for client well-being and mental health. Turning it into a political battleground undermines that.
Widdowson: Exactly. And this connects to Beaulieu’s announcement in May 2021. At that time, it was stated that “the remains of 215 children” had been found at Kamloops. But by July 15, 2021, that number was revised to “200 targets of interest.” Why? Because Beaulieu had not done adequate preparatory work. She failed to check which parts of the site had already been excavated.
It turned out that Simon Fraser University’s Archaeology Department had excavated part of the same ground years earlier and found no human remains. So Beaulieu had to walk back the number, from 215 to 200. But this raises an obvious question: if she was wrong about those 15, why assume she was right about the remaining 200? Those anomalies could also be false positives.
Beaulieu didn’t seem to recognize the problem when anomalies from already-excavated areas were counted the same way as untouched areas. That should have raised alarm bells immediately. Another issue is transparency: her full report has never been released to the public. In fact, none of the archaeological reports from these cases have been made public. That’s a serious problem.
Simon Fraser University was apparently involved in reviewing Beaulieu’s report. But when researcher Nina Green tried to obtain more information from SFU, she was told that the lawyer for the Kamloops Indian Band had advised the university not to speak about the case publicly.
Jacobsen: What do you think you and those who disagree with you—on key points about this case—actually share as common ground? A Venn diagram overlap where you might disagree, but at least enough to say, “We both accept this much.”
Widdowson: Honestly, we don’t have any real common ground if the other side insists on a different conception of truth. That’s the core problem: it’s an epistemological and ontological divide. Some argue that because Indigenous peoples have a history of oppression, whatever they say should be accepted as accurate. Others—myself included—say you can recognize their different perspectives without abandoning universal standards of evidence.
I believe many believe what they are saying, but I also think many of the claims are highly improbable. For example, if parents did not report that their children had disappeared, then who are the supposed 200 bodies in the apple orchard at Kamloops? That’s an extraordinary claim. Kamloops is not a remote wilderness—it’s near a populated area where people would have noticed clandestine mass burials. It doesn’t make sense.
This is fundamentally anti-Enlightenment. The Enlightenment idea is that evidence should be universally testable, independent of ancestry or identity. Indigenization frameworks, by contrast, often deny universal truth standards. That is incompatible with science.
And there’s another difficulty: the arguments made by people like Sean Carleton are inconsistent. They play language games. For example, in early June 2021, Carleton publicly declared that a “mass grave” had been found at Kamloops. Later, when criticized, he backtracked but dismissed objections as nitpicking—as if accuracy were an indulgence rather than the foundation of serious inquiry.
Carleton and others will say things like, “Fifty-one children died at Kamloops, we know that, so what’s your problem?” But that’s misleading. The actual number is 49, because two children were double-counted. Everyone acknowledges that children died at Kamloops. That is not the dispute. The real issue is whether children were buried clandestinely in the apple orchard. That’s not a cemetery. There is a cemetery on the Kamloops Reserve where many graves, once marked and now unmarked, are located. Children from the school who died of disease or other natural causes would have been buried there in the ordinary course of events.
Carleton shifts the ground of the argument. He doesn’t openly say, “Evidence doesn’t matter; only knowledge keepers matter.” Instead, he frames critics like me as nitpickers—pedantic troublemakers obsessed with irrelevant details, supposedly obstructing “truth and reconciliation.”
Jacobsen: Yet one could argue the opposite. If truth and reconciliation are to mean anything, they require accuracy. With accurate facts, responses can be proportional and respectful to all parties. Without accuracy, reconciliation is built on distortion.
Widdowson: Truth demands universal standards, not shifting definitions. What we’re dealing with here is a postmodernist tactic. Philosophers sometimes refer to it as the “Motte-and-Bailey fallacy.” Others call it the “radical-truistic shuffle” or the bait-and-switch. The pattern is always the same: present a banal claim everyone agrees with, then use it as cover to advance a radical claim that lacks evidence.
Take Kamloops as an example. The truism is that children died at residential schools. Everyone knows that; no one disputes it. But then that truism is used to smuggle in a radical claim: that 200 children were secretly buried in the apple orchard. When you point out there’s no evidence for clandestine mass burials, they retreat to the truism: “Well, children died, don’t you know that?” Then critics get smeared with epithets like “denialist.” In this case, “residential school denialist.”
Because I deny the claim that the schools were genocidal, that is the basis of the label. But the bait-and-switch never stops. At Kamloops, we know that 49 children died, though 25 of those deaths did not occur at the school. They died in hospitals or in accidents. Yet the numbers are
constantly misrepresented, and the dispute about clandestine burials gets blurred into the accepted fact that children died.
When their clandestine-burial claim is challenged, they revert to “children died.” And of course, no one disputes that children died.
Jacobsen: Professionally, what have you lost in these disputes? And what have others who have disagreed also lost? I aim to provide readers with context on how claims are currently approached in academia and the broader public sphere.
Widdowson: I lost my job. There were other factors, but the unmarked graves controversy was undoubtedly used to portray me as incompetent and as someone who hated Aboriginal people. Since then, I’ve been excluded from mainstream media. Aside from one interview with Jordan Tucker in 2024 and a 2023 one with Olivia Stefanovich, I haven’t had any mainstream coverage. Meanwhile, people like Sean Carleton have become the dominant spokespersons. My credibility and reputation have been attacked simply for insisting on evidence.
I’m not the only one. Jim McMurtry, a teacher in Abbotsford, lost his job for stating that many children in residential schools died of disease and that the murder claims were not convincing. He was accused of “traumatizing children.” It was an absurd case.
The research group I’m associated with has been smeared as cranks and conspiracy theorists. And then there’s James Heller, a criminal lawyer in Victoria. He’s actually a friend of mine. He came out of a cult background.
Heller noticed that in mandatory legal training materials, the Kamloops claim was described as “215 unmarked graves.” Because he’d been following the case, he requested the wording be changed to “potential graves,” which was consistent with a B.C. court decision. It was not controversial, just precise.
The Law Society ignored him, so he and his colleague, Mark Berry, brought a resolution to address the issue. Then all hell broke loose. Members of the “Aboriginal industry” circulated defamatory statements implying that Heller and Berry were racists. Shockingly, the Law Society issued a press release that effectively legitimized those attacks. As a result, Heller is now suing the Law Society of British Columbia. That case is ongoing.
Meanwhile, Dallas Brodie, the Justice and Attorney General critic, was alarmed at the Law Society’s refusal to defend factual accuracy. She posted three tweets on X expressing concern. She had approval from her party—it wasn’t a renegade act. But the Conservative party leadership worried about backlash and demanded she delete them. Brodie refused.
That triggered outrage from Aboriginal activists in the party, and the controversy escalated further after Brodie appeared at an event I had organized.
At the event, Dallas Brodie commented on the James Heller case. She said, “It’s not your truth or my truth or your grandmother’s truth. It’s the truth. “She was clearly addressing the problem of epistemological relativism—the idea that truth is subjective—which prevents us from establishing facts. That clip was circulated, and suddenly she was accused of mocking survivors of sexual abuse.
The result? She was either forced out or resigned from her party. In any case, it was a fiasco. Now she has started her own political party in British Columbia. This shows the long tentacles of these issues. And we still have not had a reckoning. People thought the “potato” was hot—well, the “cheese” on top of the potato was hotter, and it melted in strange directions.
Personally, I understand the animosity that I have received from a take-no-prisoners approach and with my satire of these claims. But look at someone like James Heller. He was as cautious and non-controversial as possible. And yet, he faced severe consequences too. So it’s clear—it doesn’t matter about tone, or how careful you are. If you don’t accept the claims, you’ll be
targeted. That’s the reality.
Jacobsen: Has anyone else lost their job because of counterclaims that, by all accounts, are not proportionate to the evidence? The original Kamloops claim was “remains of 215 children.” After revision, it became “200 anomalies.” Yet the “unmarked mass graves” narrative continues. Have those who promoted the misleading claim faced professional consequences?
Widdowson: No one, as far as I know, has suffered consequences for making misleading claims. In fact, they’ve been celebrated. Look at the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation. Meanwhile, I’m going to the University of Manitoba on September 25–26—into the belly of the beast.
I’ll be doing street epistemology on the claim that the “grave error at Kamloops” was a hoax. It won’t be livestreamed, but footage will be collected. I’m hoping that someone will stream it on Twitter. I’ve got a videographer to cover the events.
Jacobsen: Are you going to have security?
Widdowson: No, I’m just going in. Some people are worried—especially after what happened with Charlie Kirk—but I’ve done this at universities before. Even at Lethbridge, which was the worst situation, it was never threatening.
It was just theatrics. I’m anticipating theatrics now. Maybe I’m naive. I’m sure the University of Manitoba is considering this. I tried to book rooms through a professor there, but the university refused to host the event in September. They said they wanted time to plan and hold the event later in the year, but clearly it’s because that week is the National Week of Truth and Reconciliation.
Of course, that’s why I want to be there on those days—because I want to bring some truth to the University of Manitoba. They told the Society for Academic Freedom and Scholarship they’d be billed between $2,000 and $5,000 toward an estimated $20,000 in security costs. I told them, “Piss off, University of Manitoba. I’m coming in with street epistemology.” So, I don’t know what they’re going to do.
Jacobsen: It’s going to be in the winter?
Widdowson: No, it’s September 25th.
Jacobsen: Okay, well, that’s pretty cool. If it’s cold enough in Manitoba, then no one will want to protest anyway.
Widdowson: Too cold. I’m doing it to make a point. We’ll see what happens. Their warnings may be nonsense. They did the same thing at Laurier in 2018—they charged us $5,000, set up fencing that looked like Fort Knox, and had security everywhere. It was ridiculous. And in the end, it was just a bunch of clowns—never threatening in any way—pure security cosplay.
I find it really stupid. Whatever, I’m just going in there. They can do whatever they want, but I’m exercising my right to free expression. If they want to arrest me, then arrest me—we’ll see how that plays out. I’m not leaving. I did the same at Thompson Rivers. They wanted us gone, said we shouldn’t discuss this on the lands of the Tk’emlúps (the Kamloops Indian Band). I told them, “No, we’re here to uphold the academic mission of the university.” They huddled, deliberated, and then left us alone. The event went ahead fine. It’s all just intimidation tactics.
There’s also a turtle statue in front of the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation, with a “sacred fire” at its center. We’re considering holding the event there. We’ll see.
Jacobsen: The three big points I want to emphasize are:
1. Pine Creek (Manitoba): There were double-digit anomalies identified. Excavation revealed they were rocks, not graves.
2. Kananaskis: The excavation merely revealed a concrete block.
3. Kamloops: Simon Fraser University had previously excavated part of the site (early 2000s) and did not find remains. There has been no further excavation, digging, or scanning.
To clarify, you’re saying things have been conflated?
Widdowson: They did the excavations back in the 2000s.
Jacobsen: That’s ancient history at this point.
Widdowson: But that’s the reason the Kamloops number was downgraded from 215 to 200. Those 15 “targets of interest”were identified as not as remains. They were simply the result of shovel test pits done earlier by the Simon Fraser University archaeology department. They knew those anomalies were caused by prior excavations, which, of course, found no remains.
But no new excavations have been done at Kamloops—none at all. That prior work wasn’t done by the Band or by Sarah Beaulieu. They’re just hoping people will forget that distinction. And many have. Many people believe excavations have already been conducted.
When I was at Thompson Rivers doing street epistemology, I confronted the claim that “the remains of 215 children have been found.” A staff member there, Jenna, said she believed that because she thought excavations had already been carried out. There you go. That’s the perception.
Jacobsen: So, it’s not primarily about the evidence—that’s secondary. What matters is the claim in the public sphere. Social media is worse, of course, but even in official journalistic reports—not investigative pieces, just regular coverage—they don’t hedge. They don’t scale claims to the evidence. They state “215 remains” as if confirmed.
Look at comparable cases:
● Kananaskis: the anomaly turned out to be a concrete block.
● Pine Creek: 14 anomalies were excavated, and all turned out to be rocks.
So probabilistically, the track record is poor. These anomalies should not be referred to as graves. They are only GPR anomalies. To confirm anything, you need excavation. Unless they develop a better kind of imaging or fund proper excavations, we do not know. Therefore, we cannot claim.
Widdowson: None of these techniques is evidence of remains. You must dig. Excavation has to be done. Now, the Kamloops Band argues they don’t want to “disturb the dead.” But we don’t need to exhume anything. We need a preliminary investigation to determine whether there’s anything there at all.
But people like Sean Carleton and Niigaan Sinclair—the two worst actors on this—oppose even that. They held an event at the National Centre for Truth and Reconciliation in June 2025. Sinclair said, “How macabre can you be to want these families to produce the bones of their loved ones?” That was the rhetoric.
Jacobsen: Which assumes the conclusion—that there are bodies there—to denounce and defame you. That is extraordinarily inappropriate.
Widdowson: Exactly. They want people to believe it without evidence, so they can keep extracting more and more funding for all this nonsense.
Jacobsen: So, because of that again, it is not primarily about the evidence. But that does not follow from the media, where speed or haste can be an imperilling flaw. This is coming from an academician, right, where they typically have the comfort of time and money. In that sense, it is more egregious than if it were people on a tighter timeline.
Now, institutional failure—that seems clear. And the other thing I wanted to reemphasize was this: very little consequence for those making the mainline claim, but targeted consequences—like losing your job—for those who try to stick as close as they can to the evidence and ask others to do the same. That seems to be the history of it.
Widdowson: Yes, that is a problem. But at the bottom of all of this is truth. If we cannot agree that there is such a thing as a universal truth, then what can we do? Nothing. How am I supposed to evaluate what I consider to be highly improbable claims when I am operating within a universal truth paradigm, and that paradigm is not accepted by the people I am arguing against?
But they are not consistent. That is the thing. They expect everyone else to believe their views, and they present them as more than mere opinion. It is not “your opinion versus my opinion”—they are arguing as if their perspective is capital-T Truth.
Jacobsen: Academics whistling in the wind.
Widdowson: They say I must accept their view because it is obviously true in the capital-T sense.
Jacobsen: It is like what they used to say about writing essays—never start a sentence with “obviously,” because you are hoping not everyone sees it that way. There is only science.
Widdowson: That is the sign I use for my street epistemology sessions. It inflames people. But the big thing is this: science is whatever works. Medicine is whatever works. There is redundancy built into the methodologies so you can arrive at what is most likely to be true, based on the evidence. That is science. If it does not meet that test, then—welcome to pseudoscience.
Jacobsen: Categorically black and white, empirically probabilistic. Thanks a lot. That was great.
Widdowson: You are welcome.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Gleb Lisikh and Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The New Enlightenment Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/06
Do large language models truly think, or are they probabilistic text engines—and what does this imply for truth standards, persuasion risks, medicine, and legal translation?
Gleb Lisikh is a technologist and journalist serving on the board of The New Enlightenment Project. With a background in engineering and reporting for C2C Journal, The Epoch Times, and other popular as well as IT media outlets, he analyzes the promises and limits of artificial intelligence through a humanist, evidence-based lens. Lisikh argues that large language models are probabilistic systems rather than reasoning agents, warning of their power as persuasive tools and their risks in medicine and discourse. He contrasts opaque generative models with transparent symbolic approaches, remains cautious about neuro-symbolic hybrids, and advocates higher truth standards for AI while welcoming practical uses such as legal translation.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen interviews Gleb Lisikh on whether large language models (LLMs) “think.” Lisikh argues LLMs are probabilistic next-token engines, not reasoning systems; their explanations are post hoc and popularity-driven. Across vendors, core technology is similar; differences reflect datasets and tuning. He contrasts the transparent if–then logic of symbolic AI with the black boxes of LLMs, noting that hybrid neuro-symbolic efforts remain fragile. Risks center less on autonomy and more on persuasion, including propaganda, narratives, and misuse in medicine. Benefits include translating legalese and displacing paralegal tasks. LLMs are static and optimized for outputs. Because humans are emotional, he urges holding AI to higher truth standards.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: All right, we are here with Gleb Lisikh. He is a new board member of the New Enlightenment Project, a Canadian Humanist Initiative. He has a strong background in technology. He is also a journalist who writes for the Epoch Timesand other media outlets. We had an informal discussion about the weaknesses of large language models, and since you have a more fine-grained and knowledgeable view on this, I wanted to capture it in a more formal conversation. So, the big question: can large language models think? If so, why? If not, why not?
Gleb Lisikh: It really depends. I do not want to dodge the question, but it depends on how you define thinking. If you mean thinking in the way humans do, then LLMs definitely do not think in the same way humans do. It is a different process.
Their workings are based on the concept of neural networks, which are loosely inspired by the human brain. We have neural networks in our brain, in a sense, but in LLMs, it’s only a conceptual borrowing. The idea is to create associative connections between various nodes—or, in an LLM’s case, weights—that process input probabilistically and then generate output. In that sense, it is not really thinking; it is a probabilistic continuation of your question.
Does that make sense?
Jacobsen: It does. I tend to see logic as categorical, with operators between those categories. Then there’s probabilistic reasoning: if you have enough fine-grained computation, it can seem as though the model is reasoning. But in fact, it is not. Would it make more sense to overlay a logic system on top of the LLM’s processes, or to put it underneath so that what the model does is strictly logical?
Lisikh: You began with the question of thinking. I think what you really meant was reasoning. Thinking is more general—what does it even mean to think? Reasoning, or deploying structured logic, is a distinct approach. In my opinion, those are two distinct concepts. When we talk about logical thinking or structured reasoning, that’s where LLMs really fail. They don’t exercise any logical process—not deductive, not inductive, not even sequential. When you ask a question, it’s processed by the neural network through parallel computation.
When the LLM gives you an explanation, that explanation is not reflective of what actually happened. It’s a post hoc rationalization. If you ask an LLM to explain its answer, it doesn’t look inside itself and reconstruct its reasoning. Instead, it interprets your request as: what would be the most probable and popular explanation for the answer I just gave? The explanation, like the answer itself, is probabilistic and popularity-driven. For example, if you ask, “What is two plus two?”…
It’s a very simplistic example—the more technical people are going to kill me for this answer—but in a straightforward sense, it will tell you “4.” If you ask ChatGPT, “What’s two plus two?” it will give you four. But it doesn’t actually do the math. The LLM, at its core, doesn’t perform calculations. It just gives you the most popular answer, which happens to be four.
But if you then ask, “Why is it four?” it will generate a popular explanation, such as: “Well, you take two bananas, and then another two bananas, put them together, and when you count them, you get four.” That’s the explanation it will produce. But that’s not what happens inside the LLM’s “brain,” if you will. That’s the key distinction. I’ll stop there—I’m not sure if I’m fully answering your question, but that’s the gist of it.
Jacobsen: I think for most of the audience. They’re probably more familiar with the models commonly found in North America. But essentially, it’s a series of approaches. Is that same approach just replicated globally? In other words, no matter which LLM is used, will it have the same kinds of mistakes, or at least the same style of mistakes?
Lisikh: Yes, absolutely. LLM technology is fundamentally the same across all the major models we have today. Whether we’re talking about DeepSeek, ChatGPT, Microsoft Copilot—which is built on GPT anyway—or Grok, they’re all the same at the core. Elon Musk claims that Grok is different, but it’s not. It’s based on the same fundamental technology.
The primary differences among these models are the data sets on which they were trained. And we’re limited in terms of data sets—basically, whatever exists in digital format. That means the World Wide Web plus whatever additional data can be collected outside of it. That’s the main difference.
There are also technical parameters that define these models and tune them for different purposes. Some models excel in programming languages, while others excel in image recognition, and so on. But that’s just tuning—the human technicians adjusting the models to perform well in particular domains, like how much input they can handle, or what kinds of tasks they’re optimized for.
At their core, though, an LLM is just a collection of files that could technically fit on a USB thumb drive. The fundamental technology and principles are the same across the board.
Jacobsen: So fundamentally, they’re the same. We’re discussing the statistical approach employed in LLMs. What about a more symbolic or strictly logical approach? Are there weaknesses in that method which don’t show up in an LLM-type system?
Lisikh: Let me start by saying that there’s a conflation of terms in the public realm right now. Everybody commonly refers to large language models—the most familiar ones, like ChatGPT—as “AI,” or artificial intelligence. But the field of AI is actually quite broad. An LLM is just one approach to artificial intelligence.
That’s the probabilistic approach, where the model is trained to provide probabilistic, popular answers. There’s another approach called symbolic AI, where we basically program a machine through traditional coding, if you will—using explicit if–then rules. For example, if you have this input, produce that output.
That approach is older than LLMs—the probabilistic approach—but it’s not very effective. It’s tough to program billions or trillions of if–then branches so that the machine could have a meaningful conversation with you. Still, it exists. Symbolic AI is programmed through logic—rigorous logical reasoning.
It’s well understood and can be reverse-engineered, which is very different from the LLM approach. That’s the fundamental distinction: LLMs cannot reason. Their answers cannot be reverse-engineered because they’re deliberately designed as a black box, avoiding the tedious if–then style of explicit programming, which is impractical at scale.
So it’s a trade-off. Either you design a probabilistically driven engine, where you don’t know exactly what’s going on inside by design, or you build a traditionally programmable engine with predictable outputs—but that’s very difficult to achieve, because there are so many possible logical variations to account for in conversation.
Jacobsen: Scientists, technologists, humanists, skeptics—we’re not only concerned with pseudoscience, but also with science and technology itself, particularly its risks. A significant category here is existential risk. Sometimes, this technology operates in conjunction with the military, gathering large amounts of personal data. What are the risks associated with gathering this data? What are the risks associated with autonomy in AI?
Lisikh: Let me first say that I personally do not view AI in any of its forms as a threat to humanity in and of itself. It’s a tool. Yes, it’s a powerful tool, but like the saying goes: guns don’t kill people; people kill people.
We have powerful guns, we have powerful weaponry, but unless people deploy them, there’s no threat. AI is the same. In my view, it’s simply a tool. I don’t think the particular technology we’re discussing—LLMs, or what’s sometimes called generative AI—can be deployed responsibly in areas like the military to guide decisions or direct forces. That would be frightening, because we don’t know how it “thinks.” We know it doesn’t think, but its probabilistic processes are opaque, and that makes them difficult to control. So yes, there is a potential threat there.
But my personal fear lies elsewhere. LLMs are extraordinarily good at generating language—so good, in fact, that they can sound compelling. They answer relatively simple questions very well, and in doing so, they create the illusion of truth. They can sound logical, deploy what appears to be reasoning, and justify their answers in a way that seems persuasive.
That ability makes them excellent tools for propaganda. They can be used for marketing, government messaging, or more insidious forms of manipulation. And during training—or through later adjustments—they can be biased. I dislike the word “biased” here because it suggests intentionality, but let’s use it anyway.
They can be configured to lean toward specific ideas. For instance, you can instruct ChatGPT to avoid answering any questions related to Tiananmen Square, and it will comply. The tool can also be subtly tuned so that every answer nudges a particular perspective. This can be done deliberately, turning the model into a propaganda machine. And because it is so eloquent, so emotionally expressive, it can be extremely subtle and effective at influencing feelings. That, to me, is the real danger: LLMs being deployed—or perhaps already being deployed—as propaganda devices.
Jacobsen: And as you say, they are tools. Poorly motivated actors can use them on the left or on the right. What about areas where people deal with large volumes of language, but the stakes are so sensitive that broad deployment would be highly irresponsible—say, in the court system or in medicine? What risks emerge there?
Lisikh: You touched on an exciting area—the court system. I almost don’t know where to begin. From personal experience, it has developed its own language. Legal language is notoriously difficult to understand. There are layers of rules and procedures, especially in Canada, where the system is highly bureaucratic.
LLMs are actually quite good at translation—not just between languages, but also from legal jargon into plain, accessible language. I’ve used them myself in my own legal matters, and I can say with confidence that if the current court bureaucracy remains unchanged, paralegals will eventually be replaced by AI. Unless the law explicitly prevents it, that shift seems inevitable.
In that sense, I see positives in the use of large language models. They can help ordinary people, like myself, who haven’t passed the bar or studied legal language, to navigate the system more easily.
When it comes to medicine, however, I have more concerns. I wrote an article where I used ChatGPT in a discussion about COVID-19 and vaccinations. I asked it questions about how to validate the overall approach. Because the media environment was flooded with pro-vaccine messaging at the time, ChatGPT was compelling in maintaining that narrative. But it also made a lot of mistakes and presented flaws.
This was back in 2023, when ChatGPT wasn’t as advanced as it is now. Still, the fact that it could present such a strong, persuasive narrative in the medical domain was alarming. These models don’t reason logically; they surface the most popular responses, which are often shaped by media coverage. The result was a polished but flawed narrative that would convince most people—especially those not inclined to dig deeper or ask particular, logical, or technical questions.
That, to me, is very dangerous. It shows how these tools can amplify popular opinion without the grounding of logic or rigorous reasoning.
Jacobsen: Looking ahead, I know that different formulations are being developed, but the general category is “neuro-symbolic logic.” What is it, and does it have the potential to overcome the weaknesses of both probabilistic and symbolic systems? Neuro-symbolic logic, when I refer to it, is the merger of LLM technology, or generative AI, with symbolic AI.
Lisikh: Yes, I understand. Honestly, I don’t really know whether this is an up-and-coming area of research or not, because the two approaches—symbolic AI and generative AI—are fundamentally different. People like Stephen Wolfram have written extensively on this topic. They’ve devoted much of their time to embedding logical reasoning tools into LLMs.
But embedding anything into an LLM is very difficult because it can destabilize the model. The process of tuning a large language model so that it consistently “makes sense” is exceptionally delicate. This is also why updating an LLM dynamically—in real time during a conversation—is almost impossible. Let’s say you’re having a discussion with the model and arrive at a conclusion. Ideally, that conclusion could be integrated into the model itself. But in practice, it cannot be done.
There are several reasons, but the main one is that it risks breaking the model entirely. Once an LLM is trained, it remains essentially static. You can change its “mind” within the confines of a single conversation, but you cannot change its underlying brain state. That state is fixed and permanent.
For the same reason, embedding logical structures into the model risks destabilizing it. You can think of it as jabbing an electric rod into its “brain”—it just scrambles things, because we don’t really know what’s happening inside the model in detail. By its very nature, it’s a black box.
That’s why the symbiotic relationship between symbolic AI and generative AI is so complicated. I wouldn’t say it’simpossible—if it does happen, it would be an exciting development—but I haven’t seen or heard of real progress in this area.
And speaking of progress, nothing substantial has been published by the leading labs—XAI, Microsoft, Claude, or others. Their focus has been on building bigger LLMs, not on building reasoning LLMs.
Responsible AI—that’s another area of focus. Companies invest considerable effort in ensuring that LLMs don’t respond with offensive or inappropriate content. That’s where the attention goes. They’re not trying to make the answers logical or grounded in reasoning; they’re trying to make sure they sound nice. That’s essentially the priority of these companies right now, because that’s where the money is. Nobody really needs a deeply logical AI—what people want is an AI that’s engaging and pleasant to interact with.
When we had an earlier email conversation, one NEP member, “Who cares if AI produces truth? Does it really matter whether it deploys reasoning or logic, or whether it uses some other process? As long as the answers are true, who cares?”
That brings me to another question. We expect a lot from these systems—logical reasoning, accuracy, factual correctness, and so on.
Jacobsen: Yet when it comes to people, we don’t apply those same standards. Most people aren’t even logical 95 percent of the time. Are we holding AI to an unfairly higher standard?
Lisikh: I think we should hold AI to a higher standard. I agree with you 100 percent that people are emotional. They’renot driven primarily by reason or logic. And I don’t mean you specifically, or myself—I mean people in general. For the most part, they’re emotionally driven. The limbic brain tends to prevail over the neocortex.
That’s also why people relate so well to AI, or to LLMs like ChatGPT and Grok. They connect with them emotionally. If you ask a question in a way that amounts to “please confirm my belief,” the LLM will do precisely that—and it will do it in a polite, emotionally resonant way.
That’s very dangerous, because people actually use AIs as spiritual gurus now. I could direct you to numerous articles on this topic. People treat them as partners or as guides because the systems respond directly to emotional motives.
We were conditioned to think of computers as logical, cold, reason-driven machines. That’s how they used to be. ButLLMs turned that upside down. By design, they’re illogical and unreasonable, yet very emotionally responsive. Because of this, people assume machines have surpassed logic and reason and can now “do emotions.”
But that’s a false conclusion. In reality, emotions are simply easier to imitate than we once thought. Machines can write poetry, create art, and produce essays—not because they’ve become more intelligent or transcended human logic, but because those areas are relatively easy to mimic. It’s imitation, not genuine emotional depth.
So yes, I may be going off on a tangent here, but the point is clear: humans are emotional, and LLMs imitate emotions extremely well. That’s why we relate to them so strongly. But the bar should be higher. When we ask questions, we expect truthful answers. Yet LLMs aren’t designed to produce truth. They’re designed to produce responses that sound pleasing and interesting. That’s all.
Jacobsen: Thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate it.
Lisikh: Excellent.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The New Enlightenment Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/08/20
“The Act impermissibly endorses religion by advancing the religious belief that a supernatural being created humankind.”
Supreme Court of the United States (Edwards v. Aguillard, 1987)
“Creationism, intelligent design and other claims of supernatural intervention in the origin of life or of species are not science because they are not testable by the methods of science.”
National Academy of Sciences (1999)
“The lack of scientific warrant for so-called ‘intelligent design theory’ makes it improper to include as a part of science education.”
American Association for the Advancement of Science (2002)
“Intelligent design is not science. It is not testable, it is not falsifiable, it does not generate hypotheses, and it does not provide explanations for the natural world.”
National Science Teachers Association
“Science is a philosophy of discovery. Intelligent design is a philosophy of ignorance. You cannot build a program of discovery on the assumption that nobody is smart enough to figure out the answer to a problem.”
“[Intelligent design is] not a scientific argument at all, but a religious one.”
“[…intelligent design] fails in a fundamental way to qualify as a scientific theory [and is] doing considerable damage to faith.”
Dr. Francis Collins (Leader, Human Genome Project)
ID is a religiously motivated advocacy project rejected by courts and the scientific community.
It has experienced a profound loss of academic, public, and scientific credibility once their pseudoscientific claims were exposed (Jacobsen, 2022a; Jacobsen, 2022b; Jacobsen, 2024; Jacobsen, 2025). ID is a religious advocacy project framed as science. Essentially, the only scientifically supported framework is evolution by natural selection.
ID Creationism was a political movement intended as a social change agent through a vehicle of a pseudoscientific proposition, ID Creationism or adapted traditional Creationism (Encyclopedia Britannica, 2025a). This was documented through the leaked Wedge Document (National Center for Science Education, 2008).
It did not have much academic or intellectual cachet in the first place, outside of religious believer circles, who are the vast majority of the proponents of this (Scott & Branch, 2002). It’s a broad-based advocacy effort primarily rooted in Christian theological commitments (National Center for Science Education, 2008).
Most proponents were, and are, well-educated Protestant Christian men (International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design, 2013). Some exceptions included Dr. David Berlinski (2025) as an agnostic Jew, Christopher Michael Langan as a self-described “reality theorist” (Langan, 2025), and Muzaffar Iqbal (1954–2021) as a Muslim (International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design, 2013), and possibly others.
ID Creationism was an adaptation of Creationism. Creationism as a “belief that the universe and the various forms of life were created by God out of nothing (ex nihilo)” (Encyclopedia Britannica, 2025b). Its main sophistications are two foundational ideas: Irreducible Complexity of Dr. Michael Behe, and Specified Complexity of Dr. William Dembski (Paradowski, 2022).
Behe defines Irreducible Complexity as a “single system composed of several well-matched, interacting parts that contribute to the basic function, wherein the removal of any one of the parts causes the system to effectively cease functioning” (Behe, 1996).
Dembski defines Specified Complexity as “the condition in which something is both complex (i.e., not easily produced by chance) and specified (i.e., matches an independently given pattern)” (Dembski, 1998).
Both have been thoroughly debunked. Irreducible Complexity fails to demonstrate evolutionary pathways. Specified Complexity fails due to a probability miscalculation and lacks a reproducible metric. These two constructors of the theory are important and can be quoted as to the Christian hermeneutic or theology behind it.
Dembski said in two separate instances: “The Designer of intelligent design is, ultimately, the Christian God” (Williams, 2007), and “Intelligent design is just the Logos theology of John’s Gospel restated in the idiom of information theory” (Dembski, 2019). Behe stated, “I think the designer is God. I’m a Roman Catholic.” (Paula Zahn Now, 2005). ID eventually came across definitive court battles (National Center for Science Education, 2005).
In short, ID Creationism is a religiously, mostly Christian, motivated public-advocacy campaign framed as scientific dissent based on the statements and philosophical frame provided by its founders. A scattered few were drawn to the pseudoscientific ideas. Some individuals became associated with these ideas without fully anticipating the reputational consequences, or other unforeseen consequences. As a theology program, therefore, it’s culturally ministerial in nature.
Even within Christian communities, over time, many were able to distinguish ID’s pseudoscientific veneer from legitimate inquiry. So, select Christian intellectual founders of ID Creationism were candid about religious motives internally, but publicly misrepresented ID as a secular scientific alternative.
Association with the movement carried reputational costs once its scientific shortcomings were publicly established, because its public claims diverged from the internal documents and were ultimately rejected as lacking scientific support. The Wedge Document was part of this spear (National Center for Science Education, 2008).
It was produced by the Discovery Institute’s Center for the Renewal of Science and Culture (2025). The main claim is “scientific materialism” was corrosive to culture (Ibid.). They sought to replace this perspective with a theistic comprehension of reality (Ibid.).
ID positioned various ‘pressure points’ for challenging Darwinian evolution (Ibid.). The metaphor of a wedge was about a strategy to undermine the perceived dominance of materialism in culture and science (Ibid.).
They proposed three phases for this: Research, Writing & Publication; Publicity & Opinion-making; and, Cultural Confrontation & Renewal (Ibid.). That is, a comprehensive, phased project for theistic cultural influence.
They wanted to fund and produce scholarship, promote ID in books, conferences, mass media, apologetic seminars, trainings for teachers, and think-tanks, and to pursue legal strategies and then integrate ID into public school curricula (Ibid.).
The institutional and media leadership for this was Stephen C. Meyer, Phillip Johnson, and Bruce Chapman (Ibid.). Discovery Senior Fellow Dr. Stephen Meyer directs the Center, while its original strategy came from the mindset of the late Phillip Johnson and the media expertise of Discovery President Bruce Chapman (Ibid.).
They provided bases for metrics, too. They had both five-year and 20-year aims. By year five, they aimed to have ID Creationism recognized as a valid scientific alternative to evolution via natural selection, sparking significant public debate, publishing numerous books and dozens of scholarly articles, and ultimately influencing major public opinion and garnering secular national media attention. These benchmarks were never significantly met, underscoring the project’s fundamental failure.
By year 20, they wanted to make ID Creationism the dominant perspective in science and diffused throughout the arts, humanities, law, natural sciences, and public policy. Once more, none of these goals were primarily achieved. Therefore, they failed.
Even when trying to change the opinions of the public Christian community, who are pretty discerning over enough time and getting over in-group bias, they failed to change them much either. This, in fact, reflects well on Christian communities, who proved discerning enough to separate sense from non-sense despite initial in-group bias.
Other aims stipulated were the creation of fellowships, research funding, media productions, alliances, and the like. In total, about 60 individuals accepted fellowships through the International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (2013) before the organization eventually became defunct.[1]
Per statement of Judge John E. Jones III (U.S. District Court) on if ID Creationism counts as science, “ID is not science… We find that ID fails on three different levels. … Moreover, ID cannot uncouple itself from its creationist, and thus religious, antecedents” (Wired Staff, 2006).
In the end, Intelligent Design Creationism lost in the courts, in academia, and in public credibility. It remains a cultural-theological movement, not a scientific one—an instructive case study in how pseudoscience falters when exposed to rigorous scrutiny.
Indeed, a fascinating case study.
References
Behe, M.J. (1996). Darwin’s Black Box: The Biochemical Challenge to Evolution. New York: Free Press.
Berlinski, D. (2025). David Berlinski. https://davidberlinski.org.
Dembski, W.A. (2019, September 14). Intelligent Design and the Logos of Creation. https://billdembski.com/wp-content/uploads/2019/09/ID-and-the-Logos-of-Creation.pdf
Dembski, W.A. (1998). The Design Inference: Eliminating Chance through Small Probabilities. Cambridge University Press.
Discovery Institute. (2025). Center for Science and Culture. https://www.discovery.org/id/
Encyclopedia Britannica. (2025b). Creationism. https://www.britannica.com/topic/creationism.
Encyclopedia Britannica. (2025a). Intelligent design. https://www.britannica.com/topic/intelligent-design.
International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (2013, January 23). ISCID – Fellows. https://web.archive.org/web/20130123000307/http://www.iscid.org/fellows.php.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2024, January 22). Canadians and Creationism. https://in-sightpublishing.com/2024/04/06/canadians-and-creationism/.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2025, April 1). How Creationism and Intelligent Design Undermine Canadian Science Education: The Trinity Western University Case. https://in-sightpublishing.com/2025/04/28/how-creationism-and-intelligent-design-undermine-canadian-science-education-the-trinity-western-university-case/.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2022a, January 28). On a Mission for Never: Dr. William Dembski (1960-). https://www.newsintervention.com/mission-never-william-dembski/.
Jacobsen, S.D. (2022b, January 28). What was the Professional Output of Intelligent Design?. https://in-sightpublishing.com/2022/04/06/what-was-the-professional-output-of-intelligent-design/.
Langan, C.M. (2025, June 20). What is Intelligent Design?. https://www.megafoundation.substack.com/p/what-is-intelligent-design.
National Center for Science Education. (2005, December 20). Kitzmiller v. Dover Area School District, 400 F. Supp. 2d 707 (M.D. Pa. 2005). https://ncse.ngo/files/pub/legal/kitzmiller/highlights/2005-12-20_Kitzmiller_decision.pdf.
National Center for Science Education. (2008, October 14). The Wedge Document. https://ncse.ngo/wedge-document.
Paradowski, R.J. (2022). Intelligent design movement. https://www.ebsco.com/research-starters/religion-and-philosophy/intelligent-design-movement.
Paula Zahn Now. (2005, November 25). The Debate Over Intelligent Design; American Girl Doll Ignites Controversy. https://transcripts.cnn.com/show/pzn/date/2005-11-25/segment/01.
Scott, E.C. & Branch, G. (2002, August 12). “Intelligent Design” Not Accepted by Most Scientists. https://ncse.ngo/intelligent-design-not-accepted-most-scientists.
Williams, D. (2007, December 14). Friday Five: William A. Dembski. https://web.archive.org/web/20071217212817/http://www.citizenlink.org/content/A000006139.cfm.
Wired Staff. (2006, June 1). Intelligent Decision. https://www.wired.com/2006/06/jones/.
Footnotes
[1] Those individuals who accepted a fellowship position were the following:
- d’Abrera, Bernard
- Behe, Michael J.
- Bloom, John
- Bradley, Walter
- Broom, Neil
- Budziszewski, J.
- Campbell, John Angus
- Carlson, Russell W.
- Chiu, David K. Y.
- Collins, Robin
- Craig, William Lane
- de Jong, Kenneth
- Dembski, William A.
- Discher, Mark R.
- Dix, Daniel
- Field, Fred
- Gonzalez, Guillermo
- Gordon, Bruce L.
- Humphreys, David
- Hunter, Cornelius
- Iqbal, Muzaffar
- Jackson, Quinn Tyler
- Johanson, Conrad
- Kaita, Robert
- Keener, James
- Koons, Robert C.
- Kwon, Younghun
- Langan, Christopher Michael
- Larmer, Robert
- Leisola, Matti
- Lennard, Stan
- Lennox, John
- LoSasso, Gina Lynne
- Macosko, Jed
- Mallard, Bonnie
- Mims, Forrest M. III
- Minnich, Scott
- Nelson, Paul
- Palda, Filip
- Peltzer, Edward T.
- Plantinga, Alvin
- Poenie, Martin
- Puente, Carlos E.
- Ratzsch, Del
- Richards, Jay Wesley
- Rickard, Terry
- Roche, John
- Ruys, Andrew
- Schaefer, Henry F.
- Schwartz, Jeffrey M.
- Skell, Philip
- Skiff, Frederick
- Stephan, Karl D.
- Sternberg, Richard
- Tipler, Frank
- Wells, Jonathan
- Zoeller-Greer, Peter
See International Society for Complexity, Information, and Design (2013)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen is Secretary of, and Chair of the Media Committee for, The New Enlightenment Project. He is the publisher of In-Sight Publishing (ISBN: 978-1-0692343) and Editor-in-Chief of In-Sight: Interviews (ISSN: 2369-6885). He writes for The Good Men Project, International Policy Digest (ISSN: 2332–9416), The Humanist (Print: ISSN 0018-7399; Online: ISSN 2163-3576), Basic Income Earth Network (UK Registered Charity 1177066), A Further Inquiry, and other media. He is a member in good standing of numerous media organizations.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/08/02
Dr. Viktoryia Kazlouskaya, MD, PhD, is a dermatologist with 20 years of skincare, cosmetic procedures, and dermatological research expertise. She specializes in evidence-based treatments, including sunscreen, retinol, and antioxidants, while addressing conditions of acne, rosacea, and aging skin. Passionate about patient education, she emphasizes the importance of lifestyle, diet, and personalized care. Dr. Kazlouskaya is also experienced in advanced therapies such as exosomes, microneedling, and lasers, making her a trusted authority in modern dermatology. She addresses common concerns such as nail biting, trauma, fungal infections, and tumours, including melanomas that are often misdiagnosed. She explains that diet, chronic conditions, and seasonal changes can impact nail growth. Advances in dermatology, such as injectable treatments for psoriasis, improve nail health. Ethical considerations in cosmetic procedures, including plastic surgery trends like Brazilian butt lifts, are explored. The conversation concludes with plans for a future discussion on skin rejuvenation, Botox, and ethical concerns surrounding aesthetic treatments and psychological motivations.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re with Dr. Viktoryia Kazlouskaya. We previously discussed hair, and now we will discuss nails. So, overall, how can you differentiate between healthy and unhealthy nails?
Dr. Viktoryia Kazlouskaya: That’s a good starting point. It’s quite simple—just by looking at the nails. Healthy nails are not brittle; they are pink, smooth, relatively thick, and strong. That’s the general appearance of a healthy nail.
Jacobsen: What about people who bite their nails? They have unhealthy habits. What issues arise in terms of those behaviours? These aren’t just lifestyle habits; they seem more like behavioural tics.
Kazlouskaya: Yes, it’s quite common to see. There are a few specific changes associated with habitual trauma. One example is nail biting, where patients typically develop uneven ridges and thinner edges on the nails. Another habit is when individuals constantly traumatize one nail with another finger.
In such cases, you may see a midline deformity in the nail. This well-known condition, “habit-tic deformity,” is quite common. Sometimes, patients don’t even realize they are doing it. However, during an examination, you might observe them engaging in repetitive movements, continuously traumatizing their nails without noticing.
Jacobsen: What health risks are associated with nail-biting, picking, or repeated nail surface or root trauma?
Kazlouskaya: The first thing that comes to mind is infection. While the overall health risks aren’t usually severe, these habits can impact one’s self-presentation. For example, constantly biting your nails in a professional setting may create a negative impression. Additionally, there is a risk of bacterial infections. Although rare, bacteria can enter through damaged nail beds, leading to potential infections.
Jacobsen: Let’s say you want to help someone stop this behaviour. How can you help them break the habit?
Kazlouskaya: It isn’t easy. It can be quite challenging if a person is consciously willing to change the habit. Psychological conditions like depression or anxiety don’t always cause nail-biting; it can simply be a habitual behaviour. Changing this habit requires effort and awareness. Interestingly, there are even devices designed to help. For example, some bracelets detect movement and send signals to alert people when they start engaging in the behaviour.
You can program this device for different behaviors—pulling your hair, biting your nails, touching your face, or squeezing pimples. When it detects these actions, it gives you a small vibration, allowing you to redirect your behaviour consciously. It’s like a prisoner’s ankle bracelet, but instead of a shock, it helps deter bad habits.
Jacobsen: What about, for instance, dental technology, braces now can be pretty sleek, and you have to look a little harder to notice them. They can be more invisible and subtle when done well. Back in the day, people wore headgear. So, what are some of the gimmicky treatments that have been used in the past, which have had questionable efficacy in preventing these behaviors or supposedly improving nail health?
Kazlouskaya: I don’t know if I’m familiar with those gimmicky things. Nails don’t get as much attention as skin and hair. I don’t know of any weird treatments for nails from the past.
Jacobsen: Something that comes to mind is the longest-standing method as a type of coating you apply to the nails. It hardens and has a bad taste, discouraging biting. But that’s not a gimmick—it probably works for some people.
Kazlouskaya: It’s more like an old-fashioned remedy. If you ask grandmothers, they might suggest applying something sour to help someone break the habit of biting their nails. However, that would not work for an adult. This habit is so common that I’ve even seen it among my colleagues—physicians who constantly bite their nails.
Jacobsen: Are physicians usually anxious because of their long hours?
Kazlouskaya: I looked into this habit thoroughly, and it’s not necessarily connected to anxiety or depression, as I mentioned before. It can be purely habitual—people do it unconsciously without it being driven by stress. For example, picking behaviour can be driven by anxiety. There’s an urge and then relief after picking. But nail-biting is more of a routine behaviour.
No, no deep underlying psychological mechanism causes it—it simply becomes a habit. The key to stopping is recognizing and then consciously working to overcome it.
Jacobsen: Now, what about dietary habits? How do good and bad dietary choices affect nail health?
Kazlouskaya: Well, nails are made of keratin, so protein intake is the number one dietary factor to consider. You can track aspects of your health by looking at your nails. For example, nails can show signs of chronic anemia—low iron. Some nail changes can also indicate liver or kidney disease, so nutrition is definitely important. Protein is the most important nutrient for nail health, followed by iron.
Jacobsen: How do people maintain healthier nails in terms of stimulating growth? Pop culture often says that filing or trimming your nails stimulates growth and helps keep them even and rounded. Is that true?
Kazlouskaya: No, I don’t think filing or cutting nails makes them grow faster. Nail growth depends on whether your body is in balance. Younger people tend to grow nails faster, and fingernails grow more quickly than toenails. Growth can also be affected by factors like the season and diet. Many elements determine how fast nails grow.
Jacobsen: Why does the season affect nail growth? I’ve never heard that before.
Kazlouskaya: Generally, we have more vitamins and healthier habits during certain seasons. But in the summer, you can sometimes see slightly faster nail plate growth. I’d have to look up the exact scientific explanation for that.
Jacobsen: Outside of keratin, are there specific vitamin imbalances that you can notice in the nails? You mentioned kidney and liver disease as potential indicators.
Kazlouskaya: Yes, there are certain signs. One example is the little white spots on the nails as they grow. These don’t go away until the nail grows out, which suggests the issue originates at the nail matrix.
When examining the nail, you must look at different parts, including the cuticle, because it provides important clues about overall health. Changes in the cuticle can sometimes indicate serious conditions, such as autoimmune diseases like lupus. For example, under a microscope, you might see pronounced blood vessels in the cuticle, a telltale sign of an autoimmune condition.
Vitamin and nutrient deficiencies don’t always have distinct signs on the nails, but brittle, dull, or rough nails could indicate a deficiency. We typically conduct a range of tests to evaluate these possibilities.
Jacobsen: What things are catastrophic to nail health? I’m sure certain genetic conditions exist where people don’t grow nails. Still, I’m thinking more about lifestyle-related damage—situations where someone has harmed their nails so severely that they stop growing altogether.
Kazlouskaya: Yes, trauma can cause permanent nail damage. If someone experiences a severe injury—like a fall, a deep cut, or having something heavy fall on their finger or toe—they can damage the nail matrix, where the nail grows from. If the nail matrix is permanently damaged, the nail might never grow back normally. Unfortunately, in these cases, not much can be done.
In most cases of trauma, the nail might separate completely from the nail bed but will eventually grow back to normal. The outcome depends on the severity of the injury.
Jacobsen: Let’s say someone drops a hammer on their toe, causing blood vessels to burst and creating a lot of pressure and pain. What’s the appropriate response?
Kazlouskaya: That’s painful and sometimes requires medical attention. If there’s a hematoma (a collection of blood) under the nail, it may need to be drained to relieve the pressure.
A dark discoloration under the nail can look alarming, and some people even mistake it for melanoma, a type of skin cancer that can occur under the nail. Because of this, I often see patients who come in to check if their darkened nails are serious.
KIn most cases, the dark discoloration under the nail is just blood. You wait for the nail to grow out. On the toes, this can take up to a year because, as we discussed earlier, nails do not grow as quickly as you might want—especially toenails, which take many months to regenerate fully.
Jacobsen: What do people come to your office for the most when it comes to nails? What is the most common concern?
Kazlouskaya: The most common issue is fungal infections, which are very prevalent. After age 50, about one in three or four people will have a fungal infection on their toenails. It can be not easy to treat, especially if it is advanced, which is always challenging.
Another common issue is trauma or changes in the nails due to chronic conditions or deficiencies. Many people misdiagnose themselves with a fungal infection when, in reality, the changes are caused by another underlying issue. Beyond that, there are also tumours under the nails.
Many malignant and benign tumours can grow under the nail, and this is a whole subspecialty in dermatology. Some dermatologists focus exclusively on treating nails because diagnosing and treating nail-related conditions can be complex. Surgery on the nail is especially challenging because it can lead to permanent trauma to the nail plate.
Last year, I had about five relatively young patients with malignant tumours under their nails. Their nail deformities had been misdiagnosed as fungal infections for a long time, but multiple tests kept coming back negative. Eventually, I had to remove the nail plate and biopsy the tumour underneath. In some cases, it turned out to be malignant.
These are the major concerns: blunt trauma, deformities, unhealthy habits, poor overall health, fungal infections, and cancer. Melanoma and tumours in the nails are significant issues, and one thing that many people are not aware of is how unusual the location seems for skin cancer.
Jacobsen: That’s something I wasn’t aware of either. It is such an unusual spot for melanoma.
Kazlouskaya: Yes, but acral melanomas—melanomas that appear on the hands, feet, and nails—are more common in African American patients. A well-known example is Bob Marley, who died from melanoma that started on his toe.
The problem is that these melanomas are often misdiagnosed for a long time. People assume it is just trauma, a darkened nail, or a fungal infection. In general, African American populations are underserved in healthcare, meaning they don’t always see a physician as early as they should, which leads to worse outcomes.
Additionally, surgery on these melanomas is quite difficult, presenting another challenge. However, apart from melanomas, we also see squamous cell cancers on the nails. One factor that may contribute to an increased risk of these cancers is UV exposure from gel manicures.
We are not yet 100% certain about how significant this risk is, but it is a concern. If you go for a manicure every two or three weeks, you are exposing yourself to higher levels of UV light, which is known to cause cancer. This could be a contributing factor.
Another issue is HPV-related warts. Chronic warts around the nails can sometimes lead to certain types of cancer. So, major concerns, such as warts, fungal infections, and tumours, are among the most significant problems we deal with regarding nails.
Jacobsen: What new technologies might be available for special cases or are already in limited use? So, for instance, with hair, once rare technologies—like hair plugs—are now common. We also have a better understanding of the causes of hair loss. What about nails? Are there certain treatments or technologies that are rarely used now but show promise and could become more widely adopted?
Hypothetically, let’s say someone has uneven nail beds because they constantly pick at their nails. Could there be a technology that smooths out the surface they’ve deformed over time?
Kazlouskaya: Well, in the nail industry, there are a lot of new techniques for manicures, but that’s a question for a nail technician rather than a dermatologist.
However, in terms of medical treatments and new technologies, treating nail conditions has historically been challenging—especially when nails are affected by chronic conditions like psoriasis or eczema. In the past, we had very limited options to address nail changes caused by these conditions.
Fortunately, we have many medications that, while they may not completely cure these diseases, can significantly improve the appearance of the nails. For example, new injectable medications for psoriasis can help restore normal nail appearance, a major advancement in dermatology. We can now offer patients treatments that allow them to be free of these nail-related changes, which is a big step forward.
Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, Dr. Kazlouskaya.
Kazlouskaya: Bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/08/03
Gytaute Gyneityte is a Lithuanian architect and military conscript who advocates for civic preparedness and national resilience. She speaks passionately about Lithuania’s history, cultural preservation, and defence readiness. Gyneityte emphasizes unity, human rights, and resistance to authoritarianism, drawing on both professional and personal insights into architecture, security, and collective memory. Gyneityte reflects on Lithuania’s resilience, military preparedness, and cultural survival amid threats from Russia. Emphasizing civic unity, historical memory, and democratic values, she expresses hope for Europe’s commitment to human rights and national sovereignty in the face of authoritarian aggression and hybrid warfare.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You are an architect. Is Lithuania’s architecture also very angular?
Gytaute Gyneityte: I’d say so. Maybe not as much in contemporary architecture anymore, but yes, it is more about the quality of the materials—they use very high-end materials.
Jacobsen: You can see it everywhere: the roads, the cobblestones—everything is done beautifully. One example is in Ukraine, in Kharkiv. The stonework and masonry were done exceptionally well. That is old construction, of course. So, talking about military preparedness—what is your name and title, and how long were you in the military at that point?
Gyneityte: I’m Gytaute Gyneityte. In February 2015, I was conscripted and spent nine months in military service, training alongside other conscripts.
Jacobsen: What did you learn?
Gyneityte: I was assigned to the engineering battalion. Lithuania reinstated mandatory conscription in early 2015, following Russia’s annexation of Crimea in 2014. As an architect, I opted for the engineering battalion because there might be an overlap with my civilian skills. However, in reality, it was more focused on constructing field fortifications and obstacles.
We trained in handling explosives—detecting, neutralizing, and using them to breach structures. That included learning how to open doors with a charge. Of course, we also received basic military training, which included firearms handling, grenade throwing, physical fitness, and combat drills. That is the core of what the engineering battalion focuses on.
Jacobsen: Now, regarding the threat posed by the Russian Federation—by that I mean the Kremlin under Vladimir Putin, and perhaps vice versa to some extent—how do Lithuanians perceive that threat? How is it characterized, both politically and militarily, especially in the context of a possible escalation of the current conflict?
Gyneityte: We have always viewed Russia as a threat. There was never a time when the possibility of Russian aggression was ruled out. Hybrid warfare—encompassing cyberattacks, disinformation campaigns, and attempts to influence our political system—has been a consistent feature since we regained independence in 1990.
Russia has never been a friendly neighbour. However, since 2014, things have felt more acute and more dangerous. We have been warning the rest of Europe about Russia’s aggressive intentions since the annexation of Crimea. Back then, many European leaders told us we were paranoid. Unfortunately, we were right, and recent events have confirmed that. We have never forgotten the threat Russia poses.
You might have heard of the hybrid tactics involving Belarus. In 2021, the Lukashenko regime began directing thousands of migrants—mainly from the Middle East—toward Lithuania, Poland, and Latvia as a form of state-orchestrated pressure. It was widely interpreted as a retaliatory measure for EU sanctions.
What we did in response was a controversial move. We placed the migrants in detention centers and began constructing barbed-wire fencing along the Belarusian border. While the humanitarian aspect of that response has been criticized, we successfully controlled the situation.
Now, Lithuania has significantly strengthened its border security. We have fortified the borders with Belarus and the Kaliningrad region of Russia, and we continue to invest in military preparedness in cooperation with NATO.
We have, what do you call it—we have suspended parts of the Ottawa Convention, or at least adjusted our interpretation of it, in terms of the use of anti-personnel mines. Now, we are permitted to deploy certain types of landmines for defensive purposes, in coordination with other Baltic countries, as well as Finland and Poland, I believe.
What else? We have established what might be called a Commander’s Reserve or civilian auxiliary units—basically, civilians who receive some basic military training so they can assist the army or the police forces in the event of an emergency.
Generally, public support for the military has increased substantially. Military service and defence are seen much more positively now. Salaries for professional armed forces have also been raised. Conscription is still active. We have a standard nine-month conscription period, and that has not been cancelled. So yes, these are some of the main defence-related efforts underway.
Jacobsen: Now, cyber warfare seems to be Russia’s primary tool of disruption in Lithuania. Is that correct?
Gyneityte: Not only in Lithuania. I think they are doing that across Europe—and beyond. They have been involved in various acts of sabotage throughout the continent.
We had an incident where a plane exploded, and the cause is still under investigation. Events like that always raise suspicions, and unfortunately, the default assumption tends to be that Russian involvement is involved. Russia also regularly interferes in elections across Europe.
Jacobsen: Now, when it comes to Lithuania’s military preparedness, what can the country realistically do in the event of an invasion?
Gyneityte: Realistically, it has long been acknowledged that Lithuania could only hold out for a few days on its own, just enough time for NATO forces to arrive.
The critical vulnerability is the Suwałki Gap—a narrow stretch of land, approximately 60 kilometres wide, that forms the only land connection between the Baltic states and the rest of NATO, specifically between Lithuania and Poland. To the north is the Russian exclave of Kaliningrad, and to the south is Belarus. Everyone knows this is the weak link—Lithuania knows it, NATO knows it, and indeed, Russia and Belarus are aware of it.
Every September—or every two years in September—Russia and Belarus hold extensive joint military exercises known as Zapad (“West”). These drills are essentially rehearsals for potential conflict scenarios in this region. Their maneuvers often simulate actions like securing the Suwałki Gap, which would connect Kaliningrad to Belarus and effectively cut off the Baltic states from NATO reinforcements.
Naturally, we are not particularly enthusiastic about these exercises, and Zapad is scheduled to take place this year. If something were to happen, it could be timed to coincide with those drills. In other words, it would not necessarily be just a drill.
Jacobsen: What about the leadership of Lithuania? Are they issuing public statements to raise awareness—within NATO or through other alliances—that could facilitate military or critical intelligence support?
Gyneityte: We have been very vocal for the past ten years. The Baltic states and Scandinavia, together with Poland, are the ones who truly understand the threat, especially since we are closer geographically and have a better understanding of the Russian culture and language.
So, for years, we have known what they have been saying and planning. For example, Russia recently published a so-called “history” of Lithuania, claiming that Lithuania is not a real country, that our language is fabricated, just like they have done with other former Soviet republics. This was officially signed by Sergey Lavrov, Russia’s Foreign Minister. Yes, that is indeed very concerning. Our politicians always respond to these provocations. In Lithuania, if you go around saying pro-Russian things, you are not going to win a majority of votes. However, our current ruling coalition is somewhat corrupt, which is a concerning development. A protest is planned for Tuesday because our Prime Minister is allegedly involved in corruption.
Jacobsen: What are the allegations?
Gyneityte: A detailed investigative report was conducted by journalists. It revealed that he was living in a costly apartment that did not belong to him, despite having a modest official salary. He also allegedly has business ties that suggest financial misconduct. It is a long story—at least an hour-long investigative piece—but it is packed with information. Moreover, this is not the first time he has been implicated. He has previously been found guilty of corruption.
It was a mess how he got elected, to be honest. So yes, people are worried. However, even with all that, nobody can openly say they want to be friends with Russia or Belarus now. Our laws—and our constitution—do not allow that. Moreover, the public would be furious if anyone were to try.
Jacobsen: How do people in the military talk about these kinds of threats?
Gyneityte: When we refer to “the enemy,” everyone knows who we mean. There is no ambiguity. It is not some vague, abstract threat. It is very clear. It is not hypothetical. We all know who we are preparing to defend against.
Jacobsen: How much of Lithuania’s GDP is allocated to the military?
Gyneityte: As of now, Lithuania is spending over 2% of its GDP on defence, which meets NATO’s target commitment. We plan to increase it even further in the coming years—toward 3%—due to the current security situation. There is a broad consensus that this is necessary.
Jacobsen: How big is the military?
Gyneityte: Currently, Lithuania has approximately 20,000 professional military personnel. The number is approximately 26,000 when including both full-time and reserve forces.
In terms of conscription, we have had approximately 3,000 conscripts each year since February 2015, when conscription was reinstated. That would amount to around 30,000 trained conscripts to date.
We also have the Lithuanian Riflemen’s Union, which is a paramilitary organization. You will want to check the official numbers for that. In addition, there are volunteer forces—our volunteer national defence units. Again, exact figures can be verified, but they represent a meaningful segment of our broader defensive capacity.
Moreover, there is now also the Commanders’ Office—a relatively new initiative that allows civilians to undergo a short training program to prepare them to support military or police operations in emergencies, even in a limited capacity. For comparison, I believe Lithuania’s professional armed forces are now larger than those of Australia.
Jacobsen: That may be true. Australia is interesting, however. In the G20, Canada ranks nineteenth and Australia twentieth in terms of defence personnel size. However, Australia has perhaps the most generous benefits package for military personnel in the G20. Canada might be second-best in that regard. That is why both countries have large incentive programs—they struggle to recruit enough people to meet their targets. Within the Lithuanian context, when people talk about “the enemy,” do you think the political leadership might be corruptible enough to undermine Lithuania during a military incursion? Say, in the event of another so-called “special military operation” by the Kremlin-led Russian Federation, would some leaders offer no resistance? Or would civilians override executive orders and defend themselves regardless, because the political will lies more with the people than the leadership?
Gyneityte: Option number two. If we had the same kind of government for the past thirty years, maybe things would be different—perhaps we would be more brainwashed, or living in some grey zone politically. However, it is now a matter of black and white. In Lithuania’s history, the Singing Revolution took place on January 13, 1991. Sausio 13-oji. That was a critical moment.
So, to give an example: on January 13, 1991, Soviet tanks entered Lithuania. Civilians—many of them unarmed—came out to defend the parliament building, the television tower, and the national broadcaster.
In that case, they formed human shields—standing in large crowds around these buildings so the tanks could not proceed without running them over. There were thousands of people. You have no idea how many came out. They stood out there all night in minus-20-degree weather, singing songs, drinking coffee and tea, doing whatever they could to stay warm—and to stand their ground peacefully.
It was such a scary time. Moreover, I was not even born yet, but I cry every year. I put a candle on the windowsill, and we do this every year in remembrance of them. To give you an example: people from all over Lithuania came—no guns, no formal preparation—just to stand there and defend strategic buildings with their bodies. Moreover, I truly believe the same would happen today.
No doubt in my mind—crowds would appear again. This cab driver once told me that he was at the TV tower that night. Moreover, the radio host said, “It is a cold night. If anyone living near the TV tower can welcome people in for some tea, to warm up, please do. Moreover, put a candle on your windowsill.” Moreover, the cab driver said, “I looked around, and there was not a single window without a candle.”
That is who we are. This is our main existential threat—Russia. Moreover, we know just how expensive our freedom has been—our independence. We have been losing and regaining it for centuries. The fact that we have kept our language—even when it was banned—our alphabet, our traditions, including our Christmas celebrations, all of it was outlawed. Russia tried to erase us—our history, our culture, everything. However, we kept it. We still speak Lithuanian. We still have our country. That is a miracle. Moreover, I believe it shows we will maintain this miracle, no matter what happens.
Jacobsen: Are there different gendered experiences of this history? I mean, the Singing Revolution, the threat of Russia, the military—do men and women carry different memories, perspectives, or sentiments about these events? So, how might men think and feel about this history versus how women might?
Gyneityte: No, I do not believe there is a significant difference. After World War II, during the partisan resistance, the Russians killed a lot of Lithuanian men. Women had to step up in their place. During Soviet times, everyone, regardless of gender, was considered a worker.
That is why I think we have made relatively good progress on gender equality. Not perfect, not great—but not terrible either. I do not think men or women fought more or less for freedom. It was the same enemy, and it was the same difficult life, no matter your gender.
Jacobsen: Any final thoughts?
Gyneityte: I do not know—maybe a message of hope. I believe that we can be united and work together. That we can choose human values—and not succumb to dictatorships, fake news, propaganda, or fear. I still have much hope that Europe remains a place that fights for human rights.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Gytaute.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/08/02
Dr. Viktoryia Kazlouskaya, MD, PhD, is a dermatologist with 20 years of skincare, cosmetic procedures, and dermatological research expertise. She specializes in evidence-based treatments, including sunscreen, retinol, and antioxidants, while addressing conditions of acne, rosacea, and aging skin. Passionate about patient education, she emphasizes the importance of lifestyle, diet, and personalized care. Dr. Kazlouskaya is also experienced in advanced therapies such as exosomes, microneedling, and lasers, making her a trusted authority in modern dermatology. She addresses common concerns such as nail biting, trauma, fungal infections, and tumours, including melanomas that are often misdiagnosed. She explains that diet, chronic conditions, and seasonal changes can impact nail growth. Advances in dermatology, such as injectable treatments for psoriasis, improve nail health. Ethical considerations in cosmetic procedures, including plastic surgery trends like Brazilian butt lifts, are explored. The conversation concludes with plans for a future discussion on skin rejuvenation, Botox, and ethical concerns surrounding aesthetic treatments and psychological motivations.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re with Dr. Viktoryia Kazlouskaya. We previously discussed hair, and now we will discuss nails. So, overall, how can you differentiate between healthy and unhealthy nails?
Dr. Viktoryia Kazlouskaya: That’s a good starting point. It’s quite simple—just by looking at the nails. Healthy nails are not brittle; they are pink, smooth, relatively thick, and strong. That’s the general appearance of a healthy nail.
Jacobsen: What about people who bite their nails? They have unhealthy habits. What issues arise in terms of those behaviours? These aren’t just lifestyle habits; they seem more like behavioural tics.
Kazlouskaya: Yes, it’s quite common to see. There are a few specific changes associated with habitual trauma. One example is nail biting, where patients typically develop uneven ridges and thinner edges on the nails. Another habit is when individuals constantly traumatize one nail with another finger.
In such cases, you may see a midline deformity in the nail. This well-known condition, “habit-tic deformity,” is quite common. Sometimes, patients don’t even realize they are doing it. However, during an examination, you might observe them engaging in repetitive movements, continuously traumatizing their nails without noticing.
Jacobsen: What health risks are associated with nail-biting, picking, or repeated nail surface or root trauma?
Kazlouskaya: The first thing that comes to mind is infection. While the overall health risks aren’t usually severe, these habits can impact one’s self-presentation. For example, constantly biting your nails in a professional setting may create a negative impression. Additionally, there is a risk of bacterial infections. Although rare, bacteria can enter through damaged nail beds, leading to potential infections.
Jacobsen: Let’s say you want to help someone stop this behaviour. How can you help them break the habit?
Kazlouskaya: It isn’t easy. It can be quite challenging if a person is consciously willing to change the habit. Psychological conditions like depression or anxiety don’t always cause nail-biting; it can simply be a habitual behaviour. Changing this habit requires effort and awareness. Interestingly, there are even devices designed to help. For example, some bracelets detect movement and send signals to alert people when they start engaging in the behaviour.
You can program this device for different behaviors—pulling your hair, biting your nails, touching your face, or squeezing pimples. When it detects these actions, it gives you a small vibration, allowing you to redirect your behaviour consciously. It’s like a prisoner’s ankle bracelet, but instead of a shock, it helps deter bad habits.
Jacobsen: What about, for instance, dental technology, braces now can be pretty sleek, and you have to look a little harder to notice them. They can be more invisible and subtle when done well. Back in the day, people wore headgear. So, what are some of the gimmicky treatments that have been used in the past, which have had questionable efficacy in preventing these behaviors or supposedly improving nail health?
Kazlouskaya: I don’t know if I’m familiar with those gimmicky things. Nails don’t get as much attention as skin and hair. I don’t know of any weird treatments for nails from the past.
Jacobsen: Something that comes to mind is the longest-standing method as a type of coating you apply to the nails. It hardens and has a bad taste, discouraging biting. But that’s not a gimmick—it probably works for some people.
Kazlouskaya: It’s more like an old-fashioned remedy. If you ask grandmothers, they might suggest applying something sour to help someone break the habit of biting their nails. However, that would not work for an adult. This habit is so common that I’ve even seen it among my colleagues—physicians who constantly bite their nails.
Jacobsen: Are physicians usually anxious because of their long hours?
Kazlouskaya: I looked into this habit thoroughly, and it’s not necessarily connected to anxiety or depression, as I mentioned before. It can be purely habitual—people do it unconsciously without it being driven by stress. For example, picking behaviour can be driven by anxiety. There’s an urge and then relief after picking. But nail-biting is more of a routine behaviour.
No, no deep underlying psychological mechanism causes it—it simply becomes a habit. The key to stopping is recognizing and then consciously working to overcome it.
Jacobsen: Now, what about dietary habits? How do good and bad dietary choices affect nail health?
Kazlouskaya: Well, nails are made of keratin, so protein intake is the number one dietary factor to consider. You can track aspects of your health by looking at your nails. For example, nails can show signs of chronic anemia—low iron. Some nail changes can also indicate liver or kidney disease, so nutrition is definitely important. Protein is the most important nutrient for nail health, followed by iron.
Jacobsen: How do people maintain healthier nails in terms of stimulating growth? Pop culture often says that filing or trimming your nails stimulates growth and helps keep them even and rounded. Is that true?
Kazlouskaya: No, I don’t think filing or cutting nails makes them grow faster. Nail growth depends on whether your body is in balance. Younger people tend to grow nails faster, and fingernails grow more quickly than toenails. Growth can also be affected by factors like the season and diet. Many elements determine how fast nails grow.
Jacobsen: Why does the season affect nail growth? I’ve never heard that before.
Kazlouskaya: Generally, we have more vitamins and healthier habits during certain seasons. But in the summer, you can sometimes see slightly faster nail plate growth. I’d have to look up the exact scientific explanation for that.
Jacobsen: Outside of keratin, are there specific vitamin imbalances that you can notice in the nails? You mentioned kidney and liver disease as potential indicators.
Kazlouskaya: Yes, there are certain signs. One example is the little white spots on the nails as they grow. These don’t go away until the nail grows out, which suggests the issue originates at the nail matrix.
When examining the nail, you must look at different parts, including the cuticle, because it provides important clues about overall health. Changes in the cuticle can sometimes indicate serious conditions, such as autoimmune diseases like lupus. For example, under a microscope, you might see pronounced blood vessels in the cuticle, a telltale sign of an autoimmune condition.
Vitamin and nutrient deficiencies don’t always have distinct signs on the nails, but brittle, dull, or rough nails could indicate a deficiency. We typically conduct a range of tests to evaluate these possibilities.
Jacobsen: What things are catastrophic to nail health? I’m sure certain genetic conditions exist where people don’t grow nails. Still, I’m thinking more about lifestyle-related damage—situations where someone has harmed their nails so severely that they stop growing altogether.
Kazlouskaya: Yes, trauma can cause permanent nail damage. If someone experiences a severe injury—like a fall, a deep cut, or having something heavy fall on their finger or toe—they can damage the nail matrix, where the nail grows from. If the nail matrix is permanently damaged, the nail might never grow back normally. Unfortunately, in these cases, not much can be done.
In most cases of trauma, the nail might separate completely from the nail bed but will eventually grow back to normal. The outcome depends on the severity of the injury.
Jacobsen: Let’s say someone drops a hammer on their toe, causing blood vessels to burst and creating a lot of pressure and pain. What’s the appropriate response?
Kazlouskaya: That’s painful and sometimes requires medical attention. If there’s a hematoma (a collection of blood) under the nail, it may need to be drained to relieve the pressure.
A dark discoloration under the nail can look alarming, and some people even mistake it for melanoma, a type of skin cancer that can occur under the nail. Because of this, I often see patients who come in to check if their darkened nails are serious.
KIn most cases, the dark discoloration under the nail is just blood. You wait for the nail to grow out. On the toes, this can take up to a year because, as we discussed earlier, nails do not grow as quickly as you might want—especially toenails, which take many months to regenerate fully.
Jacobsen: What do people come to your office for the most when it comes to nails? What is the most common concern?
Kazlouskaya: The most common issue is fungal infections, which are very prevalent. After age 50, about one in three or four people will have a fungal infection on their toenails. It can be not easy to treat, especially if it is advanced, which is always challenging.
Another common issue is trauma or changes in the nails due to chronic conditions or deficiencies. Many people misdiagnose themselves with a fungal infection when, in reality, the changes are caused by another underlying issue. Beyond that, there are also tumours under the nails.
Many malignant and benign tumours can grow under the nail, and this is a whole subspecialty in dermatology. Some dermatologists focus exclusively on treating nails because diagnosing and treating nail-related conditions can be complex. Surgery on the nail is especially challenging because it can lead to permanent trauma to the nail plate.
Last year, I had about five relatively young patients with malignant tumours under their nails. Their nail deformities had been misdiagnosed as fungal infections for a long time, but multiple tests kept coming back negative. Eventually, I had to remove the nail plate and biopsy the tumour underneath. In some cases, it turned out to be malignant.
These are the major concerns: blunt trauma, deformities, unhealthy habits, poor overall health, fungal infections, and cancer. Melanoma and tumours in the nails are significant issues, and one thing that many people are not aware of is how unusual the location seems for skin cancer.
Jacobsen: That’s something I wasn’t aware of either. It is such an unusual spot for melanoma.
Kazlouskaya: Yes, but acral melanomas—melanomas that appear on the hands, feet, and nails—are more common in African American patients. A well-known example is Bob Marley, who died from melanoma that started on his toe.
The problem is that these melanomas are often misdiagnosed for a long time. People assume it is just trauma, a darkened nail, or a fungal infection. In general, African American populations are underserved in healthcare, meaning they don’t always see a physician as early as they should, which leads to worse outcomes.
Additionally, surgery on these melanomas is quite difficult, presenting another challenge. However, apart from melanomas, we also see squamous cell cancers on the nails. One factor that may contribute to an increased risk of these cancers is UV exposure from gel manicures.
We are not yet 100% certain about how significant this risk is, but it is a concern. If you go for a manicure every two or three weeks, you are exposing yourself to higher levels of UV light, which is known to cause cancer. This could be a contributing factor.
Another issue is HPV-related warts. Chronic warts around the nails can sometimes lead to certain types of cancer. So, major concerns, such as warts, fungal infections, and tumours, are among the most significant problems we deal with regarding nails.
Jacobsen: What new technologies might be available for special cases or are already in limited use? So, for instance, with hair, once rare technologies—like hair plugs—are now common. We also have a better understanding of the causes of hair loss. What about nails? Are there certain treatments or technologies that are rarely used now but show promise and could become more widely adopted?
Hypothetically, let’s say someone has uneven nail beds because they constantly pick at their nails. Could there be a technology that smooths out the surface they’ve deformed over time?
Kazlouskaya: Well, in the nail industry, there are a lot of new techniques for manicures, but that’s a question for a nail technician rather than a dermatologist.
However, in terms of medical treatments and new technologies, treating nail conditions has historically been challenging—especially when nails are affected by chronic conditions like psoriasis or eczema. In the past, we had very limited options to address nail changes caused by these conditions.
Fortunately, we have many medications that, while they may not completely cure these diseases, can significantly improve the appearance of the nails. For example, new injectable medications for psoriasis can help restore normal nail appearance, a major advancement in dermatology. We can now offer patients treatments that allow them to be free of these nail-related changes, which is a big step forward.
Jacobsen: Thank you for your time, Dr. Kazlouskaya.
Kazlouskaya: Bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/31
Bob Reuter shared his reflections on the 2025 Humanists International General Assembly and the International Humanist Conference held in Luxembourg, highlighting a warm, collegial atmosphere and emotional moments, such as Mubarak Bala’s attendance. He praised the dynamic “inspiring practices” format and emphasized the importance of striking a balance between local and international contributions. Challenges such as funding for global collaboration and inclusion of diverse communities were discussed. Reuter advocated for practical humanist services, like non-religious weddings and funerals, to better reflect non-religious values. He also emphasized the importance of emotional connection, leadership accountability, and fostering solidarity, suggesting ideas such as humanist couchsurfing to strengthen community ties across borders.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are your main takeaways from the 2025 Humanists International General Assembly and the International Humanist Conference you hosted in Luxembourg?
Bob Reuter: A feeling of bliss is the first thing that comes to mind. I found the entire weekend — from Friday to Sunday — to be exceptionally warm and friendly. It was truly remarkable to see so many people gathered together. Everything went well. Aside from a few minor hiccups, the event ran very smoothly.
Jacobsen: What kind of hiccups?
Reuter: Just a minor one — Andrew Copson did not receive a lunch that accommodated his dietary requirements. It was a minor oversight, likely unnoticed by most attendees, but it stood out to me. I try to be very attentive to the well-being of participants, especially those in key roles.
Jacobsen: Like Sideshow Bob stepping on a rake — it hits you in the face, even if you saw it coming. There is even a whole episode devoted to that gag. What were some highlights from the speakers? What stood out to you? What feedback did you hear from attendees?
Reuter: I will start with the first keynote speaker — someone I know personally. He was relieved that his talk went smoothly, that his English was clear enough, and that he stayed within the time limit. During the break, he received many thoughtful and friendly questions. As academics, we are used to conferences where questions sometimes aim to show off. However, the atmosphere here was much more collegial. Attendees asked questions out of genuine interest. It created a space focused on sharing ideas and learning, where people gained new perspectives on topics they may not have been familiar with before.
Regarding the sessions on “inspiring practices,” many attendees praised the format. Each speaker had ten minutes, which made the sessions feel dynamic and engaging. If one speaker was less engaging for you, it was only a short wait until the next — potentially more inspiring — presentation. This approach worked well because people’s interests are personal, and the short format helped sustain engagement across a wide range of topics.
Jacobsen: Would it be helpful to have a semi-academic format, such as poster presentations, where attendees could present their ideas in a less formal setting?
Reuter: Potentially, yes. At the 2023 World Humanist Congress in Copenhagen, for instance, a poster session was held. That event was larger, with parallel sessions on various themes. I attended one focused on humanist services, particularly in youth work. Those talks were significantly longer than ten minutes.
It was very appropriate for those presentations to be much longer because you want to dig deeply into an established practice. You want to learn how they do it, what their foundational principles are, and also what observed effects they have had.
It is tough to convey all of that in just ten minutes. Consider showing a video of an activity, such as a ceremony, youth camp, or similar event. Therefore, the ten-minute quick talks, followed by a roundtable, are not necessarily the ideal format.
However, if you only have one day, it is a good way to provide people with a wide range of input without making it too long or overwhelming. I remained alert and excited throughout the day. However, as an organizer, you have that adrenaline running through your system, wondering: will everything be okay? Will we stay on schedule? Will we make it to the restaurant? Will people like the food? Will the music work?
So, yes. For other participants, the day might have felt long because the amount of input was quite intense.
Jacobsen: Do you think humanist organizations, if they were to host a similar event in the future, and let us say they are mid-sized or even small but highly motivated to host, should leverage their specific strengths within the context of the conference?
Reuter: It’s always a good recommendation to lean on your strengths. However, it is challenging to pinpoint exactly what those strengths are, as they can vary significantly.
In my case, one of my strengths in this context was that about half of the presentations came from people based in Luxembourg. As a small country, we know everyone and have quick access to many interesting individuals. I could have invited even more people involved in public science communication because I know many in that field.
However, I also did not want the conference to be overly local. I wanted a balance between local contributors and international experiences. In other contexts, strengths could be entirely different.
In much larger countries, one of the strengths might be access to internationally well-known figures. In Luxembourg, we do not have many internationally famous personalities — that is a challenge.
When I look at what Humanists UK did during the pandemic with their online seminars, they featured some famous people — individuals you would recognize from television or prominent YouTube channels. They could host them and draw in a large audience simply because people wanted to hear from someone well-known.
That is something we struggle with in Luxembourg. Mainly, when catering to a more Luxembourgish audience, well, “No one is a prophet in their town,” to use that phrase. In Luxembourg, you often know the locally famous figures personally, and you are also aware of their shortcomings. So it is harder to place them on a pedestal.
Even though, as a humanist, I do not believe anyone should be put on a pedestal — we are all human and should be treated as such. Still, there is this effect where people who have achieved something gain attention and admiration. When someone is internationally famous, it is easier for the public to overlook their flaws or not even consider them. That distance creates a kind of allure.
Jacobsen: On that note, there was a massive boost to the humanist movement when it gained momentum alongside the New Atheist movement. However, that movement has fragmented and declined in terms of its core following.
What should humanists lean on now — whether it is around a personality or alignment with another movement — to maintain relevance or momentum on specific issues? How can we ensure that the humanist life stance remains responsive and relevant to the context?
Reuter: One thing I heard during the weekend event is that many people want to develop intercontinental collaborations and stay connected, doing things together across borders. We already have the European Forum within Humanists International, where we collaborate regularly.
We’ve had a lot of online meetings — that’s just how it unfolded. We recently had our first in-person meeting. I think it will be beneficial to have more of those in the future. These intracontinental meetings are feasible due to the ease and speed of travel nowadays.
However, especially when you want to collaborate and secure funding — particularly from sources other than our own organization or umbrella organization — that is where people tend to struggle. With Erasmus+, organizations in different countries can jointly submit a proposal, but it has to be organizations from European countries. I know the Romanians did that with colleagues from Malta and another country. You need at least three countries, and then it becomes viable. However, imagine you want to do something with an organization in Nigeria — there is no international funding scheme currently available to support that.
So yes, it is something people aspire to, but there are fundamental limitations. I do not have answers, I recognize the gap.
Jacobsen: The international case is tricky. For instance, the Norwegians do receive significant governmental or federal funding for identifying as a humanist organization and having a large membership. Additionally, a substantial portion of the public — whether tacitly or explicitly — identifies as humanist, making it a very welcoming environment for them at this point. Another issue, however, is that they cannot use that government funding internationally.
Reuter: They are not supposed to — exactly. The same applies to our Belgian colleagues. They do receive public funding, which is quite substantial compared to others, but it must be used within the country.
Jacobsen: One way to utilize those funds in an international context is to invite people — scholars, fellows, or organizers.
Reuter: Yes, that is a possibility. You can frame it as continuous professional development for young people, which it genuinely is.
Jacobsen: It benefits them, and they gain international European experience in a humanist context. That could be valuable. It does not require a significant amount of funding. For example, a buddy system could be helpful: their flight is paid for, but they stay with a colleague or a host family — someone from that country who is willing to support them. That would reduce costs if that is a concern.
Reuter: Yes, and that reminds me of an idea I heard in Glasgow a few years ago at another International Humanist Conference. It was the concept of staying over at a fellow humanist’s home.
The idea, proposed by someone at the time, was that religious communities already do this — they rely on mutual solidarity. You essentially trust someone you do not know personally. You trust a stranger simply because you share the same religious faith, which is unusual, but that’s what people often do. There is a certain built-in credibility, or credit, that you are granted in advance. Only if you prove unworthy of that credit does it disappear.
So, humanist couchsurfing — I think that is a nice idea. Many of us travel internationally as humanists, often without funding from an organization or employer. So this kind of network could be a valuable initiative.
It could also be a great way to connect with people internationally and show that we are a community with a sense of solidarity.
Because having a network that offers reciprocal support — where being part of the community means not just giving but also receiving — is powerful.
Jacobsen: What were some moments that stood out for you during the conference?
Reuter: Honestly, the fact that Mubarak Bala was with us — that was incredibly emotional. We had been celebrating his release and donating money to support him, even though most of us had never met him. That kind of altruistic concern for another human being, based solely on shared values, was profoundly moving.
I remember thinking how lucky I am. I can be the president of an association of Humanists, Atheists and Agnostics in Luxembourg and speak out publicly without really fearing for my safety. I do not believe my life is in danger because of my humanist identity — at least, so far, I have not felt that way.
Meanwhile, in another country, just saying something that would be considered mundane here — like criticizing religion or the Prophet — can lead to imprisonment or worse. Perhaps that is because the religious communities in Europe have undergone a kind of moderation. I guess 200 years ago, saying such things here might have gotten you killed, too.
So yes, imagining that expressing your beliefs could be dangerous — it is almost unimaginable. And then hearing Mubarak speak, talking with him on Sunday evening after everything quieted down — that was powerful.
Listening to him describe what it felt like to be imprisoned, the uncertainty, not knowing if or when he would be released — it was chilling. And then, hearing how elements of his religious upbringing still linger with him, even in terms of how he feels he should dress, that struck me.
There are moments when he breaks free from that influence, and he questions: Why shouldn’t I dress how I like? I may enjoy dressing that way. Moreover, I can separate it from its religious or cultural significance and make it my own.
Another very emotional moment for me was when Leo spoke about Andrew’s achievements. I had not realized it was under Andrew’s leadership that Humanists International became a much more diverse organization.
To me, that diversity now feels natural. It is like — yes, this is how it should be. Moreover, to some extent, you could say, well, it is still not enough.
I have seen it from behind the scenes — the delegates from Uganda were not present because they did not receive their visas. Europe, and Luxembourg as part of the Schengen Area, did not allow them in.
They were not there. So, it is still not the safe and inclusive space that it should be. However, we have rules, regulations, and bylaws stating that people must run this association from different continents and regions of the world. That now seems natural — but apparently, it was not always the case. So yes, it is still a challenge. Moreover, we also struggle with diversity here in Luxembourg.
We do not have 50% women on our board, and we do not have 50% of our overall membership represented by women. Moreover, it is not because we do not want that — I am not entirely sure why that is the case. I think it is worth analyzing.
Also, in terms of our membership, we are not fully reaching or engaging with the internationally diverse population living in Luxembourg. Around 50% of people living in Luxembourg do not have a Luxembourgish passport. We fail to engage with some of them. Part of it may be due to prejudice — we may assume specific communities are more religious than they are. So we may think: “This will not interest them, because they are just religious — end of story.”
However, is that the case? Probably not. So then — why not try? In that sense, there is something to be learned from this international organization — lessons that can be applied to local organizations in highly diverse countries.
Jacobsen: A good observation is that, in many cases, when you look at religious populations within a given country — especially newer ones — they are often minority groups demographically. However, when those communities have been around for 20 or 30 years, a new generation has emerged.
That generation tends to be much less religious on average than their parents. They also tend to adopt many local cultural customs as part of adapting their belief systems. Moreover, about one-third of those kids tend to leave religion altogether.
Therefore, the self and identity are not static. Culture is fluid. Moreover, people are, too. It is not as though those things are fixed forever. Moreover, in terms of the gifting to Andrew, what did you think of the enormous number of gifts? At least three scarves, if I recall.
Reuter: Yes. I found it comical. It almost looked like a religious ritual. However, I took it as an opportunity to think: “No, this is just a human way of giving something from one’s culture or community to someone as a symbol.” It says, “We consider you one of us.”
If people associate that with religion or religious traditions, so be it. However, I think we are always in a space where we do things — and also observe and critique what we are doing — yet we do it anyway. Because, why not?
Jacobsen: It is also — I mean — we are not dry. You know? This is not a science conference. However, science plays a part in it.
Reuter: Exactly, I appreciated the fact that humanism is also about emotions.
Jacobsen: That is a huge comfort, yes. I think many people see it as a way of looking at — or at least approaching — the world, not just intellectually. There is a great deal of comfort in it. I remember Leo; when he was speaking with Andrew, he used the word ‘longing‘.
He said he was “longing” for these moments — seeing people from all over the world come together. Moreover, I think that is a widespread sentiment. It is always there. This is one of my favourite times of the year — attending a big international humanist conference. What was your funniest moment?
Reuter: That is interesting. I do not know. I do not think the event was funny — I would not call it humourless — but there is no specific moment that stands out to me as the most amusing.
Jacobsen: I found the banter over dinner — just little things like that — hilarious—the random conversations. One of my funniest moments was actually with Mubarak. I did several interviews with him. Moreover, when we spoke, he said I was the last person (or among the very last) he talked to before the police took him.
We were doing an “Ask Mubarak” series for a now-defunct publication, Canadian Atheist. The session right before — the one I was about to send him — had a subtitle that included: How bad can it get? I attended the conference, but I couldn’t find our seating area.
I was unable to find the conference room at the time. I had been travelling, so I went to the bathroom. As I turned, I saw a man wearing a small hat — someone I recognized. Moreover, I said, “Are you Mubarak Bala?”
He said, “Yes.”
I said, “Hi, I am Scott.”
Then he said, “Oh… what?”
Then he told me, “Come with me.”
He took me through the back entrance — through the red slider, where you would usually need the ticker tape or badge access. We went under and through, using the back route into the conference room. And so the first person I ran into at the conference was Mubarak Bala. Stuff like that — circumstantial happenstance, funny.
What else? We had a first for Humanists International this year. We had the first VP-P woman duo in the history of Humanists International.
That will be very fruitful and interesting, as you will gain a completely different approach and perspective on specific topics that may have been overlooked for a while. I am very excited to see how that develops over the next few years.
Reuter: Yes, true. Even though we should not expect too much from women in leadership to change the world just because they are women. The structure of the world is not necessarily conducive to change, particularly when it comes to dismantling patriarchy.
Jacobsen: A big help will be that the strengths of Ross and Maggie will come through. Maggie, in particular, is — I think — a quintessentially American phenomenon. She has much energy.
Reuter: That may be one moment I found funny. When she spoke before she was elected, I had the impression, “This is a politician speaking.”
And I mean that in a good way. She is very eloquent. She knows how to address a crowd. She knows how to engage both emotionally and intellectually. So, yes — I thought, “Wow”.
But, in our community, we have an ambivalent relationship with the allure of power. Because, yes, like Karl Popper, the Austrian philosopher, we think we should give power to those who do not want it. Because those who excel in leadership are often at risk of being seduced by the power that comes with it. I believe it is essential to have safeguards in place — mechanisms to ensure that the people we elect into power do not accumulate too much power.
This is precisely what we are seeing now in the United States — with someone who appears extremely egocentric, or even narcissistic, or however you might describe it. I am not trying to diagnose anyone from a distance — that is always dangerous — but from what I observe, they seem to love being in charge. They love using that power to their advantage.
There is now sufficient evidence to support this case. That is truly dangerous. Because people in leadership should care about others, that is how democracy should function. We should also be able to remove leaders — peacefully, through democratic means — without resorting to violence.
I mean, voting — one aspect that people often take as fundamental to democracy is the idea of majority rule. However, I do not think that is the most crucial part. What matters more to me is that we can remove our leaders without needing to kill them, because we can change our minds about who we want to lead us.
And not just about the person, but also about the government’s ideas and the policies they promote. We can say, “Okay, we were wrong — let us change it.”
Jacobsen: Right, we do that quite well. It is not always easy, but we manage it better overall than many. I like the idea of elections as a “mini revolution.” You know — so we do not have to behead Marie Antoinette to move forward.
Reuter: Yes, true.
Jacobsen: What is next for the Luxembourgish Humanists?
Reuter: One thing we have been working on, in parallel to organizing conferences, is setting up humanist services, particularly through the European Humanist Services Network.
For instance, we have been working on the EU wedding standard and implementing it, including providing training. On Monday, just after the conference, we had a meeting with people from Flanders, Belgium, who will provide training for our celebrants. That way, we can get things going and offer practical humanist outreach by providing services to the broader community.
This can help us become known for something positive, rather than being known as the group that opposes religion and fights against religious privilege (which, of course, we will continue doing as long as it is necessary).
The next big area is developing services for humanist funerals. We have been working on a new brochure. In 2019, we published a small booklet on baby-naming or newborn welcoming ceremonies — how to conduct them in a humanist and non-religious manner, your rights, and the possibilities available.
It was not meant to be a recipe book but rather an encouragement to empower people to do something on their own, in their own way.
We are now attempting to create a similar publication, focusing on death and funerals. Because when you have a newborn or are planning a wedding, you typically have more time to prepare. There is no urgency. However, with funerals, it is different. Things must happen within days.
Moreover, we still see that many people default to contacting a priest and having a religious funeral, because that is what people know. It is still the standard offer. It is culturally familiar.
However, more than 50% of Luxembourg’s population identifies as non-religious. In that case, they should have access to funeral services that reflect their values — services that cater to their own needs and convictions.
Jacobsen: Thank you for your time. Have a good day.
Reuter: You are welcome. Bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/31
Professor Gordon Guyatt is a Canadian physician, health researcher, and Distinguished Professor at McMaster University, widely recognized as the pioneer of evidence-based medicine (EBM). He coined the term “evidence-based medicine” in 1991, fundamentally transforming how clinicians worldwide evaluate research and make patient care decisions. Guyatt has authored or co-authored thousands of influential papers and is among the most cited health scientists globally. He has also led the development of the GRADE framework for grading evidence and guidelines. His leadership, mentorship, and prolific contributions have profoundly shaped modern clinical epidemiology and guideline development, cementing his legacy in global health research.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, last time we talked, you had received the Henry G. Friesen International Prize in Health Research. You gave a lecture as part of that recognition. Could you describe the content of that lecture and the feedback you received?
Professor Gordon Guyatt: It has turned out to be a series of eight lectures because — as far as I know — this is a unique Canadian award that requires the laureate to travel across the country and deliver the Friesen Lecture at multiple Canadian medical schools. So far, I have done it at McMaster, Waterloo, Ottawa, Toronto, Winnipeg, Calgary, and Edmonton.
In a little while, I will be giving my eighth and final Lecture in Vancouver. It has been an enjoyable experience — I have met people in each city. As I have delivered the lecture multiple times, I have refined it to be more interactive, which the audience consistently appreciates. Overall, it has been a fun and enriching experience.
Jacobsen: Now, when you look at the current generation of medical students — as a related question — how has their training changed compared to when you were a student, especially about epidemiology and evidence-based medicine?
Guyatt: Well, there have been some significant changes. When I was in training, residents typically worked one night in three. After being on call overnight, you would often stay until 5 p.m. or later the following day. That would be unheard of now. Today, work-hour restrictions are much tighter, and training is organized more around shift work.
Another significant change is the structure of attending service. Earlier in my career, when I was in clinical service, I would be on for a whole month at a time. Then, it was reduced to two weeks. Now, for many services, attending physicians are scheduled for just one week at a time. This is not ideal for continuity of patient care — you barely get to know the house staff before either they or you rotate off the service.
I sound like a dinosaur, but back then, it was different. This shorter time commitment does not foster the same level of continuity or, arguably, the same level of dedication to patient care. Whether that change comes from the trainees themselves or the system is a matter of debate. Still, the system certainly does not encourage the same depth of commitment.
Those are some of the significant structural changes. If you look specifically at evidence-based medicine, today’s students have no sense of what the world was like before EBM.
Jacobsen: For context, before EBM, clinical decisions were often made based on expert consensus — what some have jokingly called the “GOBSAT” approach (Good Old Boys Sat Around the Table).
Guyatt: Nowadays, students do not necessarily know or care much about the development of evidence-based medicine (EBM) or guideline standards. Still, they fully expect recommendations to be grounded in evidence. They might not dig deeply into the evidence themselves, but they rely on guidelines and assume they are evidence-based. I once gave a talk to a group of medical students in Toronto — virtually — and the first question at the end was, “How did you get interested in EBM?”— as if it had always existed! No kidding.
Jacobsen: I love that. I love that so much. You are one of the most cited people in Canadian academic history. When you go down the field, how does that feel? “Also — as an aside — what is your name?” I could understand if they asked me that, but not you! They are completely ahistorical.
Guyatt: Yes, I get that a lot in interviews.
Jacobsen: And it is not just in epidemiology — it is true across disciplines. Pick any field. This has been facilitated by social media and the Internet, providing you with immediate access to vast amounts of information. Still, it is all presented in an achronological manner. So, it is a net of information, which ideally gets filtered into usable knowledge — but there is no sense of timeline. That is part of it. From a media or sociological standpoint, it is fascinating.
It is such a reflection of how the world has changed. I have asked this before, but giving the lecture for the award is different from receiving the award itself. The second part, where you are now travelling and delivering this series of lectures — how does it feel to be at this stage of your career, being called upon to do this national lecture circuit and seeing the process from this vantage point?
Guyatt: Well, I feel like I am cashing in on all the work I have done over the years. I am, by citation count, the most cited Canadian health scientist, and evidence-based medicine has become something to which everyone must at least pay lip service. People know that I helped get it started, so they think of me as a legend.
So, wherever I go, people say, “Oh, it is such an honour to be talking with you.” But back in the early days, it was not always like that! When I first started promoting EBM, the reception was far from universally warm. I might have told you this story before, but once, in the States, I visited a department where they did not like being told that they had missed the boat.
Our message was: “You were trained in a particular way, and you think you have expertise, but real expertise means knowing how to assess the evidence — and you were not taught that.” Unsurprisingly, a lot of the senior experts did not appreciate hearing this.
There was one bright young immunologist in that department who did not take kindly to it. I met with him and a couple of residents. Typically, in those sessions, the expert asks a question to the junior resident. The senior resident finally offers the answer.
Well, this fellow asked the junior resident, then the senior resident, and if they did not get it, he asked me. I never knew the answer — not once. Zero. He was trying to embarrass me, but it did not bother me at all.
And the next time I ran into him — purely by chance while walking around the campus — I said, “Hey! Thanks for that educational session you invited me to!” Learned a lot. It was a great session. Anyway, the guy did a double-take because he thought he had delivered a major put-down, and it did not bother me in the slightest — which he did not expect! Anyway, that is just one story of the hostility that sometimes arose — understandably, in a way — because you are telling people, “Sorry, you missed the boat,” and that is not pleasant to hear.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Gordon.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/30
Kal Merhi, founder of iROOMit, turned his lived experience of displacement and housing instability into a thriving AI-powered roommate-matching platform. With limited formal education and no government funding, Merhi bootstrapped iROOMit to address the affordability crisis in urban housing. The platform integrates ID verification, scam prevention, and secure rent transactions, growing from 1,200 to over 7,000 users monthly. With ambitious global expansion plans, Merhi envisions co-living as a long-term housing solution. His mission is not just technological but personal: to create safe, accessible spaces for those struggling to find a place to call home.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today we’re here with Kal Merhi, founder of iROOMit, an AI-powered roommate matching platform designed to make co-living safer, smarter, and more accessible. His story defies the typical tech founder narrative — he arrived in North America with only a sixth-grade education, limited English, and a history of housing insecurity. Cal rebuilt his life from the ground up, bootstrapping the development of iROOMit. The platform integrates identity verification, scam detection, background checks, lease agreements, and rent payments into a single trusted solution — all critical components when you’re looking for a safe and secure place to live. With over 5,000 new users joining each month, Cal’s mission is rooted in safety, intuition, and connection. He uses technology to empower people seeking housing stability — the kind he once lacked. Your journey to founding iROOMit is anything but typical. What’s the story behind the challenges and life experiences that led you to create this platform?
Kal Merhi: Yes, of course. Because of my upbringing, the idea for iROOMit — the concept of roommate living and co-living — was always in the back of my mind. I’ve always believed that everyone deserves a place to call home. It doesn’t matter if it’s 200 or 300 square feet — if you have a place to sleep and feel safe, that’s home. I lived through civil war and displacement in Lebanon, so I know what it means to be a refugee, even within your own country. That experience gave me a deep appreciation for having stable housing. From early on, I wanted to create something that could offer that kind of support to others — something meaningful, something global. I’ve always been entrepreneurial. I’ve only worked for someone else for about a year or two. The rest of the time, I’ve launched businesses, built them, sold them, and moved on.
The idea for iROOMit came during the COVID-19 pandemic. Initially, I worked on a platform for people to buy and rent homes without needing a real estate agent. But midway through that project, I pivoted. I realized the real need, especially with housing costs rising globally, was in affordable co-living. That’s when I launched iROOMit: a platform focused on helping people find roommates and shared rentals, using AI and innovative technology to match users based on lifestyle compatibility and safety.
We finalized the technology in 2022 and spent that year testing it in the market. The feedback was overwhelmingly positive — even more than we expected. So, we officially launched in 2023. The growth from 2022 to 2023 was exponential, and 2024 saw even more momentum. In 2025, what we’re experiencing has exceeded all our early expectations. We’ve built something the market didn’t offer but desperately needed — a safe, secure, and intuitive platform for finding housing. Yes, people need homes and want to save money, but trust is everything in today’s digital world. Scams, fraud, and misinformation are everywhere — and we set out to change that.
So, we created that safe zone for our community. When people come in looking to rent or they have a place they want to rent out to someone else, it helps them save money, create space, and offer someone else a safe and easy experience. We built that environment intentionally, and the results have been phenomenal.
Jacobsen: Now, when you turned your personal experience with housing instability into a tech platform focused on safety and smart co-living, what was some of the early feedback like? How did input during the beta phases help shape the platform to better meet the needs of people in those situations?
Merhi: Yes, that’s a good question. Initially, when we launched, we listened very carefully to users. I don’t think of them as just users — I call them community members. Even if I’ve never met them, I care deeply about them. So, we made it easy for people to contact us via email or direct message. They gave us feedback on what needed improvement and what they found challenging. The number one issue — and I keep repeating this — is scams. People would connect with others and later discover the listings were fake or unverified. So, together with my business partner David, our CTO, we built an AI system designed to detect and remove scams and unverified listings. We wanted people to feel safe and secure when connecting with others. We focused heavily on that from the very start because we couldn’t scale without safety. If users lose trust in our platform, the whole model collapses. That’s something we noticed with other platforms — they have many scam complaints. You can read the reviews, send emails, and speak with people who’ve had bad experiences. We didn’t want to make that mistake. So, we tackled the problem right at the beginning — not after 100,000 or 200,000 listings. We grew the platform with safety built into its core. As we expand, we’re constantly evolving and improving. The feedback we get is excellent. On the Google Play Store and Apple App Store, our app is rated 4.6. I think that’s solid. Sure, there’s some criticism, but the positive outweighs the negative. Overall, the impact of our technology has been phenomenal.
Jacobsen: Now you’re at 5,000 new users every month. How has that growth trajectory developed over time? Looking back six months or a year, what were your monthly active user additions? And based on that trend, what does the projection look like for the year ahead?
Merhi: Sure, yes. I’ll start with 2022 — our trial year, so I won’t count that. I’ll begin with when people started paying for monthly, weekly, 60-day, and 90-day subscriptions. In 2023, we were getting around 1,200 to 1,300 new users monthly. In 2024, we doubled that.
As I speak with you, we’re hitting 6,000 to 7,000 new users per month. That’s a growth rate of approximately 200% to 300% year-over-year. In 2025, we’re experiencing around a 20% increase month-over-month compared to last year. The growth is exponential, and there is demand. We’re expanding our reach across North America and into the UK. For example, we’re now entering smaller towns and cities, not just focusing on major metropolitan areas. There’s a significant need there, too. From 2023 to 2024, our growth was about 200%, and in 2025, we anticipate hitting 300%.
By the end of 2026 or early 2027, we’ll be reaching 20,000 new users per month. I’ve developed a three-year expansion plan covering 2025, 2026, and 2027. By the end of 2027, we will be fully launched in Canada, the United States, and the United Kingdom. We’re launching in Australia, Singapore, New Zealand, and Dubai in the UAE this spring. By the end of summer or early fall, we expect to enter Western Europe. I aim to reach 100,000 monthly users by the end of 2026 or early 2027.
Jacobsen: Congratulations on those numbers and projections. Now, where is there room for improvement? In a realistic sense — not just theoretical ideals — what next steps or provisions would make the application more robust? And what does this rapid growth say about the rental and housing market for people today?
Merhi: Yes. So, looking at the current housing situation, it’s becoming increasingly complex — not for everyone, but for a high percentage of individuals — to rent on their own. It’s simply out of reach financially. We’ve seen this in our 24/7 data monitoring and internal analysis. If someone wants to live in an urban area, it’s tough. Moving to rural or suburban areas might mean lower rent, but then comes the commuting issue, especially in places where transit options like buses or trains are limited or nonexistent. Renting solo has become extremely difficult for the next generation. For many, the only real option to move out of their parents’ homes — out of basements or shared family spaces — is to choose co-living or roommate arrangements. The last time I checked, about a month ago, the global market cap for roommate living was around $250 billion. By 2027 or 2028, projections suggest it will reach $300 billion. The main reasons are high living costs, unaffordable rents, and stagnant wages. Over the next 10 to 15 years, co-living and roommate-style housing will become the new norm — the new lifestyle. There’s no way around it. This is not just in Canada or the U.S. I’ve spoken to people worldwide; the answer is the same. There’s a significant shortage of affordable housing. So, the market is moving in our direction — the wind is at our back. For individuals looking for a place through our platform, we’ve made the process so easy that we’ve tested and confirmed you can rent a place, whether inside or outside your city, within 15 to 20 minutes, and do so securely.
Because we have all the necessary security elements in place, your money is safe, and your deposit is secure as well. Improvements come from listening to individuals, and, just as importantly, individuals following our guidelines. For example, if someone wants to list a room, we ask them to upload a clear, high-quality photo. This makes people feel more comfortable, and they are more likely to trust listings that appear verified. We offer verification through a partnership with Stripe. There is a small verification fee, but it gives users a trust advantage within the app. We also offer flexible pricing tiers for listings, so people can choose options that fit their budget and life situation. The ongoing improvement of our platform is a hand-in-hand process: listening to our community, tracking advancements in technology, and implementing those developments to make the experience easier and more secure for everyone.
Jacobsen: For those who have experienced housing instability — as you have — this is a vital human aspect of the conversation. What is the feeling, emotionally, when you do not have that stable grounding in life that comes from having a place you can truly call home?
Merhi: Yes… No, no, no — it isn’t enjoyable. It’s as if you’re completely exposed. There’s no protection, no foundation. When you do not have a home, it creates a deep sense of homelessness-not just physically, but emotionally, too. When someone says, “I don’t have a home,” it is a harsh truth. It cuts into daily life. No matter what job you do — whether in construction, a restaurant, anything — at the end of the day, people want to go home and relax, even just for a few hours. But it’s not a good feeling when you don’t have that. Not at all. How can I describe it? It’s like a tiny leaf caught in a storm — the wind takes you wherever it wants. You’re not grounded. You don’t have a place to say, “I belong here.” Yes, it’s sad. But that’s the reality, and I’m just saying it. That’s how it feels.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Kal.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/28
CEO Neil Batlivala, of Pair Team, talks about the uses AI-driven care coordination to serve vulnerable populations, including the unhoused and chronically ill. Amid Medicaid cuts, their model reduces hospitalizations, builds trust through community-based care, and delivers measurable outcomes. They advocate for policy reforms that integrate social services and expand value-based care. Pair Team delivers tech-enabled, human-first care to underserved communities by partnering with local clinics. Using AI-driven care coordination and compassionate teams, they serve vulnerable populations—including the unhoused and chronically ill. Amid Medicaid cuts, Pair Team is scaling equitable care, ensuring no one is left behind. CEO Neil Batlivala leads the mission.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How do current Medicaid cuts threaten vulnerable patients?
Neil Batlivala: The Medicaid cuts currently under consideration in Congress will force difficult conversations in state capitols—about which benefits to scale back and which beneficiaries may lose coverage. But with the rise of generative AI and the expansion of care models like ours, which deliver better outcomes at significantly lower cost, we now have the tools to uphold Medicaid’s promise to its beneficiaries while maintaining fiscal responsibility. I’m hopeful that innovators will rally around the program to ensure it continues delivering high-quality care to those who need it most—at a cost our country can afford.
Jacobsen: How does Pair Team’s AI-driven care coordination model improve health outcomes?
Neil: If someone doesn’t have a place to sleep or can’t afford groceries, seeing a doctor isn’t their first priority. That’s why we meet people where they are—starting with basic needs to build trust.
Our AI-enabled care model identifies high-risk patients early and addresses their needs from the ground up—starting with housing, food, and financial assistance, and working up the ladder to medical and behavioral care.. Our AI platform helps coordinate care across a fragmented landscape of social services and medical care —connecting patients to resources like primary care, food assistance, or substance use treatment. Our tech empowers frontline care teams with real-time insights and streamlined workflows, so they can spend less time on admin and more time with patients.
The result: more trust in the system, fewer hospitalizations, and higher quality of life.
Jacobsen: What are success stories from patients or clinics where your model made a significant impact?
Neil: One story that stands out: a patient experiencing chronic homelessness and severe mental illness was visiting the ER multiple times a week. Our team engaged him through a community partner and built a trusting relationship with a local community health worker by helping to coordinate housing services and eventually get him into permanent supportive housing. Along the way, the patient slowly agreed to coordinate with behavioural health services. Over 6 months, his ER use dropped by 90%—and, more importantly, he reconnected to primary care, stabilized on treatment, and began rebuilding his life.
Throughout our work, we’ve seen similar outcomes: a 52% reduction in ER visits and a 26% drop in hospitalizations among high-need patients engaged in our model.
Jacobsen: How does your technology earn trust among unhoused populations?
Neil: For people experiencing homelessness, life is often unstable—frequent moves, changing phones, and constant uncertainty. Navigating healthcare in that environment is nearly impossible.
Our technology simplifies it into one trusted entry point: a single phone number patients can call or text, 24/7. Behind that simple connection is a care team enabled by a powerful AI platform that coordinates the complexity—appointments, benefits, referrals, medication logistics—so patients don’t have to manage a broken system on their own.
But trust isn’t built by software. It’s built by people. That phone number connects patients to a local community health worker— someone with lived experience—who stays with them throughout their care journey. We also embed within community-based organizations that already have long-standing relationships with our patients—meeting people where they are and adding consistent follow-through that becomes the foundation for trust.
Jacobsen: What policy changes would support Medicaid expansion and equitable care access?
Neil: We need policies that encourage smarter care, not just more care. That starts with expanding value-based payment models that fund outcomes—not just services. Instead of reimbursing for every visit or test, we should pay for what actually improves health: reducing ER visits, managing chronic conditions, and stabilizing people’s lives.
We also need to embrace innovation. AI and telemedicine can radically expand access, especially for patients who are hard to reach through traditional models. These tools can reduce administrative burden, help coordinate across fragmented systems, and ensure care is accessible 24/7—even on a basic phone.
Finally, we must integrate social and medical care. The biggest drivers of poor health—housing insecurity, food access, untreated behavioral health—can’t be solved by the medical system alone. Policies should support funding for non-medical interventions and align incentives across health and human services.
With the right policy shifts, we can build a smarter, more equitable safety net that actually works—for patients, providers, and taxpayers.
Jacobsen: How do you balance AI with the human-first ethos?
Neil: At Pair Team, AI doesn’t replace care—it enables it. We use AI to eliminate paperwork, prioritize patient needs, and coordinate across systems. But the care itself is always human-first: delivered by nurses, social workers, and community health workers who know how to navigate complexity with compassion.
We have strong guardrails. We only deploy AI where it enhances safety, accuracy, and effectiveness—and we always keep human oversight in the loop.
Jacobsen: What metrics do you use to measure ROI and equity in the healthcare system?
Neil: We measure success by how well we engage the hardest-to-reach patients, improve quality of care, and reduce avoidable costs.
On average, we aim to engage patients who haven’t seen a primary care provider in more than three years and 100% of them are connected with a culturally responsive community health worker—matched by language and lived experience—who serves as their consistent point of support.
For quality, we monitor HEDIS metrics and condition-specific outcomes, like A1C and blood pressure control. In high-risk populations, we’ve seen over 50% improvement in A1C management and depression remission.
On the cost side, we measure financial sustainability through shifts in care utilization—demonstrating 52% fewer emergency visits and 26% fewer inpatient admissions, alongside increased use of outpatient care.
At its core, our model is designed for the most marginalized patients and ensures no one falls through the cracks.
Jacobsen: How can federal policymakers better partner with tech-enabled care organizations?
Neil: Federal policymakers can make an enormous impact by creating flexible funding pathways for tech-enabled, community-integrated care models. That includes supporting CMMI pilots focused on innovation for high-cost patients, finding efficiencies across medical and social spending, and incentivizing cross-sector data sharing.
We also need federal champions willing to listen to what’s working at the local level—and invest in infrastructure that can scale it safely and equitably. That includes accelerating responsible adoption of AI and automation in care delivery—particularly in Medicaid, where administrative burden is high and workforce shortages are acute. Policymakers can play a critical role in funding AI innovation that enhances care access, lowers cost, and strengthens trust in underserved communities.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Neil.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/28
Legal Framework & Definitions, Vulnerable Populations
On February 15, 2023, the Special Joint Committee on Medical Assistance in Dying reported on five mandated issues: advance requests, access to MAID for mature minors, access to MAID for those whose sole underlying medical condition is a mental disorder, the state of palliative care, and the protection of people living with disabilities. A considerable amount of misinformation has circulated in the public sphere and media and Dying With Dignity Canada (DWDC) would like to set out some clear facts surrounding MAID, the strict criteria and safeguards that govern its use, and aspects of its proposed expansion.
DWDC, “Myths and Facts: Medical assistance in dying (MAID) in Canada”
Medical assistance in dying (MAID) is a process that allows someone who is found eligible to be able to receive assistance from a medical practitioner in ending their life. The federal Criminal Code of Canada permits this to take place only under very specific circumstances and rules. Anyone requesting this service must meet specific eligibility criteria to receive medical assistance in dying. Any medical practitioner who administers an assisted death to someone must satisfy certain safeguards first.
Only medical practitioners are permitted to conduct assessments and to provide medical assistance in dying. This can be a physician or a nurse practitioner, where provinces and territories allow.
Government of Canada, “Medical assistance in dying: Overview”
The next thing I want to speak about is whether the vulnerable need protection. Again, this has been tried in court with both the Carter case and Truchon case. There is no evidence that vulnerable people are at risk for MAID. [Ed. Minor evidence suggests otherwise, now, but small and select, see AP News.] In fact, if you look at the actual people who are receiving MAID, they are typically white, well educated and well off. You could easily argue that the marginalized communities are disadvantaged because they’re not accessing MAID. In the Truchon case, Justice Baudouin equally found that the disadvantaged are not being taken advantage of and you must do each case at a time.
Dr. Derryck Smith, “Special Joint Committee on Medical Assistance in Dying”
Death is a sensitive topic. It is a different question from the origin of life, the evolution of organisms, the speciation of species, and the point when life begins for human beings. We’re dealing with a live person who can make, ideally, informed decisions about a profound moment in life: its end. For those who know those who have tried to take their life, the sensitivity is multiplied over social relations. Rational foundations for care in finality are important, though. A lot of smart humanists have thought deeply about this topic.
Humanists can be stereotyped–as a whole without exception–supporting medical assistance in dying (MAID) at the expense of palliative care. MAID as a way to reduce healthcare burden (of the old, the sick, the disabled), and dangerous as a “social contagion.” Atheist humanists get the worst of it, because of the major prejudices felt and only recently researched in an academic context.
The lattermost, as a piece of falsehood, emerges with relative frequency. These will be case examples for this article. These cases critiquing the imperfection of MAID have a sensibility akin to creationist critiques of evolution with God of the Gaps arguments. God of the Gaps arguments point to absences or uncertainties in scientific knowledge and then assert divine intervention. It is a form of magical thinking. Critique evolution superficially without proposing a workable alternative; what is the evidence-based alternative with greater efficacy than MAID, where MAID is merely one option? This challenges the trade-off myth. There will be failures in any system. Is this more efficacious than the system not existing? Stuff like that.
Debunking Common Myths
Canada has an organization devoted to these issues, DWDC. I found and took a statement about the spread of misinformation about MAID by DWDC seriously. DWDC noted myths about:
- “advocating to kill infants with disabilities”
- “mature minors will be eligible for medical assistance in dying (MAID) in March 2027”
- “opening the door for suicidal children and teenagers to access an assisted death”
- “eligibility of mature minors is being considered without adequate protections in place and without consultation or consent from parents or guardians”
- “clinicians inappropriately recommending MAID to patients who are not eligible or as an alternative to treatment”
- “vulnerable populations being eligible for MAID because they are suffering from inadequate social supports, including housing”
- “Canada is systematically targeting and ‘killing’ the poor, disabled, and marginalized instead of giving them the proper supports they need to live.”
Social Contagion Concerns
DWDC identified a few more. However, this sets a foundation for knowledge about misinformation’s ubiquity dispensed flippantly by both left and right alike. This has political debate content. The fundamental issue is humane treatment. That shouldn’t be political. Upon doing a first search on social contagion, the source of some misinformation was made by right-wing conservative groups. The idea being, thus: “Physician-assisted suicide is social contagion.”
Social contagion research on suicide seems to rely on fear of copycats: a good fear. The substantive enquiry: Is the evidence proportional to support this assertion, or is the general assertion of social contagion of suicide equivalent to medical contexts, including MAID? Health Canada’s 2022 MAID monitoring report analyzed suicide rates. The 2022 study found no significant increase in suicide rates following MAID legalization in 2016. This differs compared to patterns after high-profile celebrity suicides. The American Psychological Association’s 2014 review (Psychological Bulletin, Vol. 140) links media sensationalism to copycat suicides. In other words, MAID’s regulated approach mitigates the standard effects seen in social contagion risks. Health Canada did the study. The American Psychological Association 2014 found the same for copycat behaviours and media exposure, not due to structured medical processes.
Palliative Care vs. MAID
According to DWDC and the Government of Canada, MAID has multiple safeguards in place, as stipulated at the outset. General suicides exclusive to MAID do not have safeguards in place. Of those two, to the original question, what is the evidence-based alternative with greater efficacy than MAID, where MAID is merely one option? Which is to say, in either case, conditions for palliative care exist equivalently, while MAID is in place versus not.
Exceptional (Super‑Minority) Cases
What about the exclusionary cases? That one does not wish to happen at all. A super-minority of unfortunate cases as exceptions to the principles of MAID. “Canadians with nonterminal conditions sought assisted dying for social reasons” described social conditions under which some MAID cases continued with “unmet social need.” Health Canada’s Fifth Annual Report (2023) report showed less than 2% of the 13,241 assisted deaths by individuals involving psychosocial factors as primary motivators.
We should all strive to help those with unmet social needs, who may fall under this category. These commentaries point to inefficiencies in safeguards, particularly in super-minority specific cases, not the principle. This is the relevance of God of the Gaps arguments with creationism against evolution.
To identify gaps is to identify gaps in MAID-specific cases and, thus, in the general population too, the bodies found in general populations, probably, result in less dignified and compassionate deaths. We should emphasize palliative care and other care more to balance the ratio of provisions for Canadian citizens. The Special Joint Committee’s 2023 report found that 3 in 10 Canadians can access high-quality palliative care. Rural areas and Indigenous communities are underserved. Ontario integration of palliative consultations with MAID assessments reduced requests by 15%. This synergy shows promise; it’s not either-or. This is to say, again, that the principle stands while exclusive super-minority cases require more work. Critics do a service here, up to and including robust, systemic, integrated alternatives.
Social contagion merely applies to the unregulated and unsafe cases of suicide, as in a double-barrel shotgun after a woman in a depressive fit after a breakup. It is different than a considered, regulated, informed choice about suicide with the assistance of a qualified professional in most of the other cases. MAID supports something more akin to the latter than the former. We should have expanded social programs for those who need them, more robust MAID mechanisms, and condemnation of stereotypes about MAID that harm people who need them. Expanding social programs may incorporate guaranteed housing subsidies.
Conscience, Faith, and Coercion
MAID is the main option available for those who need it. If an individual believes in a divine being, and does not want to become enmeshed in humanist or other ideology around their decision or their end of life, they should be permitted to make that choice, according to their conscience and faith. Similarly, those who do not share that notion, in which human beings do not ultimately own their life, a god does, should be permitted their conscience-based free choice too. If someone is being coerced, this would fail the principle and the spirit of the MAID options permitted in Canada.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/28
John W. Robitscher, CEO of the National Association of Chronic Disease Directors (NACDD), discusses the organization’s mission to prevent chronic disease through partnerships, community programs, and innovative tools like the HALT (Health And Lifestyle Training) app. Working closely with the CDC, NACDD helps implement evidence-based strategies nationwide, promoting healthy lifestyles and reducing risk factors such as poor diet and inactivity. Robitscher emphasizes the need for cross-sector collaboration, culturally tailored interventions, and empowering individuals through education and technology. Despite challenges, he believes widespread lifestyle change is possible with commitment, proper tools, and support from both public and private sectors.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are with John W. Robitscher. He serves as the Chief Executive Officer of the National Association of Chronic Disease Directors (NACDD), providing strategic leadership to advance its chronic disease prevention and health promotion mission.
Since joining NACDD in February 2005, he has overseen the acquisition of over $450 million in funding for chronic disease prevention and health programs across all 50 states and U.S. territories. With over thirty years of experience managing nonprofit organizations, Robitscher has expanded NACDD’s reach, supporting a network of over 7,000 public health professionals worldwide.
So, how is NACDD advancing early detection methods for chronic diseases like diabetes, and what emerging technologies are helping support these efforts?
John Robitscher: We’re proud to partner strongly with the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), especially with the National Center for Chronic Disease Prevention and Health Promotion. The CDC has a long history of developing preventive medicine guidelines, going back fifty, sixty, even eighty years.
It works because the NIH (National Institutes of Health) does the medical research, and then the CDC implements that research through practical programming. They rely on national partners like NACDD to help bring those evidence-based programs into communities.
We support state and territorial health departments by directly interacting with local communities in every U.S. state and territory. Thus, we act as a bridge, helping push these proven programs to where they are needed.
Some programs include diabetes prevention, heart disease and stroke prevention, hypertension prevention, and more. One exciting innovation we’ve developed is a lifestyle management course called HALT, which stands for Health And Lifestyle Training. We can discuss it later, but it is a cutting-edge digital mobile application tool that helps people manage and treat their chronic conditions.
Jacobsen: What are some good examples of cross-sector partnerships? I was interviewing a medical professional recently, and we discussed how no single discipline can effectively tackle something as complex as cancer. Cross-disciplinary collaboration is key. Is it similar in chronic disease prevention?
Robitscher: Absolutely. What we know is that the significant risk factors for chronic diseases like heart disease, stroke, diabetes, cancer, early-onset arthritis, and even dementia—those risk factors are often the same.
They include physical inactivity, poor nutrition, unhealthy body weight, and tobacco use. So promoting physical activity, healthy eating, and smoking cessation addresses multiple chronic conditions simultaneously.
The CDC runs a program called Active People, Healthy Nation, which aims to get 27 million Americans to exercise at least 150 minutes weekly by 2027. That’s a realistic and vital goal.
We work across sectors—education, transportation, housing, private industry, and government—to support better access to physical activity, promote healthier diets (including fresh fruits and vegetables), and reduce tobacco use. All of these are essential components in reducing the leading causes of death and disability in the U.S.
Jacobsen: What are the biggest challenges in chronic disease prevention over the next year?
Robitscher: The biggest challenge is that people do not want to exercise. They do not want to eat healthily. People want to eat what they want, when they want, and we live in a society that celebrates individual choice. We support that independence, of course, but we must also be realistic.
You have to focus on it. Losing weight is hard in this country and anywhere. There is so much delicious food on the market that is not good for you.
Our Health and Lifestyle Training (HALT) program is so important. It is evidence-based and is currently being implemented in 17 states. I have used it myself for a year. I lost 30 pounds and have managed to keep most of the weight off. But it is a challenge. I have to work out regularly to maintain it.
Still, if we can give people the tools, resources, and education—if they can track their movement and food intake—then we can deliver real impact. It is about improving health outcomes and quality of life.
The goal is not just to live longer. Yes, longevity matters, but so does the quality of those years. People in their 70s and 80s who use wheelchairs or live in nursing homes because of preventable falls. That is not what most people want.
We want people to remain physically and mentally active as they age. Achieving that takes work from all of us. But it is possible, and we are committed to helping people lead longer, healthier, more balanced lives.
Jacobsen: How does NACDD utilize its data to inform programs and measure the impact of chronic disease prevention? And I do not necessarily mean something as coarse as “I weighed X. Hooray.”
Robitscher: The CDC—and we—use particular metrics. In the past, the CDC has developed stringent guidelines and deliverables for grantees to meet. These are not just about weight loss. They include measurable reductions in chronic disease rates, improved access to clean water and healthy food, and better medical services and devices.
There are many indicators: healthy weight, nutrition, physical activity, smoking cessation, and even broader community-level measures. When combined, these contribute to a healthier nation.
That is the foundation on which we begin. We do not rely on just one metric. It is about understanding how these components work together to improve public health outcomes.
So a lot of what we do involves looking at all the data. We review scientific research, of course, but we also consider anecdotal data, like information from Google or Amazon about consumer behaviours, purchasing trends, and search patterns. We also evaluate environmental factors like air quality, food quality, and the location of recent natural disasters and how they impact specific populations.
We use all of that to develop a plan tailored to the community. There’s no point in launching a program that the target population will not follow. Programs must be culturally appropriate and aligned with the specific needs and values of the communities we serve.
We take this very seriously. We co-design programs with input from patients, community leaders, and public health professionals. One of our key roles at NACDD is being a convener—we bring together people from across sectors within a community, facilitate discussion, and collaboratively decide what will work locally.
There is no one-size-fits-all solution. Populations vary, with different cultures, dialects, and lived experiences. For example, our HALT program is available in English and Spanish and is culturally adapted for Native American communities in the Great Plains region.
We constantly strive to develop solutions that genuinely meet the needs of each community. That is not easy. You cannot just release a shiny new app or generic program and expect everyone to engage. You have to meet people where they are. That is our philosophy.
Jacobsen: What are the primary objectives of the Solving Health Care Challenges webinar? This will likely come out after the webinar, but could you repeat the key takeaways?
Robitscher: The webinar’s core message is to reject the idea that one program can fit everyone. That doesn’t work. We must meet people where they are.
We have to address populations at the macro and micro levels. On a population level, yes, we design programs to address broad needs. But ultimately, chronic disease prevention and management come down to individual decisions. A person must choose the life they want to live and commit to making meaningful changes. That is how we help them live longer, better lives.
Jacobsen: Are you engaged with policymakers or legislators through NACDD to support these types of chronic disease prevention and management programs?
Robitscher: We do not lobby, per se.
We meet with policymakers primarily to educate them on the opportunities available within their states. Often, legislators do not know what programs are working well in their jurisdiction, or even what initiatives are currently active.
At NACDD, we maintain a database called State Success Stories, where we showcase programs nationwide that effectively prevent chronic diseases and promote population health. Much of our work is leveraged. The federal government often provides seed funding, but private industry and businesses frequently match or exceed that investment.
One great example is our Walkability Action Institute. I just returned from Anchorage, Alaska, where we conducted a walk audit with the community to assess and improve walkability. These efforts aim to make communities more livable, ensure access to healthy food, and create safe environments for walking and biking.
That program is a strong public-private collaboration. For every federal dollar invested in the walkability program, the private sector contributes approximately $177. Through this initiative, we have brought millions of dollars to local communities. Private businesses have built walking paths, biking trails, and community fitness infrastructure. They have brought people together around the goal of healthier living.
That is what NACDD does—we serve as a conduit, bringing diverse stakeholders together.
Jacobsen: How do you transform engagement into chronic disease management? You can deliver excellent resources, run webinars, build programs, and raise $450 million—but at scale, the population-level impact depends on people becoming invested enough to take action. How do you get them actually to make that change?
Robitscher: I am glad you asked that. It is a great question, and it ties directly into our HALT application. This is a digital tool that can be found on every American’s smartphone.
We are currently proposing it to the MAHA Group because lifestyle management is something this administration is ready to prioritize. Secretary Kennedy and President Trump—regardless of party lines—are among the first national leaders in recent memory to talk openly about chronic disease prevention. We are excited to support them.
We would love to see HALT in the hands of every American. With this app, people can track their food intake, physical activity, and weight and even sync up with a blood pressure monitor. These are critical indicators of a healthy lifestyle.
We have to control our health. Again, the only way to do that is hard work. But if we give people the right tools, we can help them succeed.
It is physical. It is about being physically active daily and watching and tracking what you eat. But all of that depends on education.
We expect people to make significant lifestyle changes, but often, we do not explain why. In reality, physicians only spend about five to seven minutes with each patient. That is not enough time for meaningful behaviour change education.
So, we need a tool that empowers the person, not just the patient. You may not be a patient yet, but you can still take action to improve your life.
We believe lifestyle change management is critical—it may be the most vital initiative this country has ever embarked on. Can we help people manage their lifestyles effectively enough to live longer, happier, more fulfilling lives?
We believe we can. But it will take hard work.
People think they can download an app and just have it on their phone, which will make them healthier. It will not. The app must be paired with education, and you must commit. You have to put in the effort.
But the good news is—it is doable. I am a living example of that. I lost 30 pounds using the HALT app. I believe we can change the lives of millions of Americans and make them much better than they are today.
Jacobsen: Excellent. John, thank you for your time and expertise. It was nice to meet you.
Robitscher: Yes. You had good questions. I enjoyed it too.
Jacobsen: Thank you again. Take care.
Robitscher: You too. Bye-bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/27
Charles Antwi, a representative of the Accra Atheists and assistant to the President of Accra Atheists, Roslyn Mould, reflects on the challenges and progress of secular humanism in Ghana. Speaking with interviewer Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Antwi explores the tensions between traditional beliefs, colonial religious legacies, and the efforts to establish a transparent and inclusive humanist identity. He highlights the confusion between atheism and humanism, the growth of secular communities, and the role of Humanists International in fostering solidarity. Antwi emphasizes that humanism is an ethical framework, not merely a rejection of disbelief, and advocates for greater clarity and unity.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How was the overall experience, especially being surrounded by people from diverse cultures and backgrounds around the world?
Charles Antwi: It was an incredible experience. Coming together with fellow humanists, agnostics, and atheists gave me a profound sense of warmth and solidarity. It truly felt like a welcoming embrace. I appreciated the opportunity to meet like-minded individuals, and I am sincerely grateful to Humanists International for making this possible.
Jacobsen: What is your main takeaway when you look at the international humanist community? How do you envision the Humanist Association of Ghana, the Accra Atheists, and other Ghanaian groups fitting into the larger global culture?
Antwi: In Ghana, the term humanist is often misunderstood. Many equate it with simply being humanitarian and assume you cannot be humanitarian without a belief in God. That misconception remains a challenge. What I appreciate about Humanists International is its consistent defence of human rights and fostering of a global community. Their annual meetings and mutual support foster a strong sense of solidarity. I truly value that.
Jacobsen: When you think of Ghanaian humanism, how do you define it within the broader humanist movement? For example, some groups adopt documents like the 2002 or 2022 Amsterdam Declaration. How do you see a uniquely Ghanaian expression of humanism developing?
Antwi: In Ghana, many people claim to have left the church or religion, but they still hold onto certain spiritual beliefs. As a result, humanist groups sometimes attract individuals who identify as freethinkers but are not necessarily atheists or agnostics. This presents a challenge when attempting to establish a core membership that aligns with secular humanist principles. We are still working on identifying and organizing around a more precise, shared definition of humanism.
Jacobsen: Is there confusion in Ghana between secular humanism and humanism with a religious perspective? Is that a significant issue? What do you think is causing that confusion?
Antwi: Part of the issue is that, in trying to be inclusive, we sometimes blur the lines too much. When we say, “Let us welcome everyone,” including religious individuals involved in humanitarian projects, some people start identifying as secular religious humanists. They believe that doing good alone qualifies them to be part of the movement, regardless of their religious beliefs. That mingling of secular and religious perspectives creates confusion. It is a challenge, but one that we can overcome with clarity and continued dialogue.
Jacobsen: When I think of secular humanists, I often associate them with the skeptic and scientific skeptic communities—figures like James Randi, Penn and Teller, Leo Igwe, and others—who focus on making things concrete, scientifically informed, and clearing away pseudoscience and superstition. Over the years, I have consistently heard from African humanists that, while the details vary by country, three major issues tend to emerge historically. First, traditional superstitions were passed down through indigenous cultures. Second, the effects of Arab Muslim colonization. And third, European Christian colonization. The challenge is that African contexts often involve all three simultaneously. That combination is unique and arguably the most challenging environment in which to advance secular humanism.
For example, in Canada, we are mainly dealing with Christian fundamentalists, and they have significantly declined. They now make up less than half the population, so the problem is less pressing. In the U.S., Christian fundamentalists still form a majority, so the issue remains larger there. However, in Ghana and many parts of Africa, you are contending with all three forces—traditional, Muslim, and Christian—at once.
Antwi: Yes, all three at once. That is true.
Jacobsen: In some places, like New Zealand, the challenge is different but still very difficult. For instance, Erohiku Tehuri wrote a book about secular humanism and atheism from a Māori perspective over a decade ago. It was not very long, and since then, no one else has published anything significant from that cultural lens. He remains the only prominent voice. In such contexts, there is no real audience yet. By contrast, in Ghana and Nigeria, despite the triple challenge, there is at least some traction and progress.
Antwi: Yes, and something else we should consider is this: not every atheist can be called a humanist. That is an important distinction. Many people may leave religion, identify as atheists or agnostics, but still not embody the values of humanism. The question is—are they tolerant? Are they inclusive? Do they treat people ethically? Temperament matters. Humanism is more than disbelief; it is about how you live and relate to others. Some people identify as atheists, but that does not automatically make them humanists. Being a humanist requires a different level of ethical commitment and worldview.
Jacobsen: In North America, I have often heard it expressed this way: atheism or agnosticism is one’s stance on the existence of gods; humanism is the framework for how one chooses to reason and act in the world. It provides an ethical lens to what is otherwise a neutral philosophical position—believing or not believing in gods.
Antwi: To our credit, we are doing our best to grow and organize. We are currently focusing on building our membership. On Facebook, we have about 1,400 followers. That is not bad. Our Instagram account is newer. We started with only about 12 followers, but after boosting a few posts, we have grown to nearly 80 followers in just a month. People are reaching out—sending direct messages, asking who we are and what we do.
When that happens, we usually have a brief interview. We ask questions like, “Are you religious?” or “How did you leave religion?” It helps us understand where people are coming from. We have been answering numerous inquiries on Facebook and gradually expanding our reach. So for now, our membership is growing.
Jacobsen: Do you find that, when you interview people—whether publicly or privately—some of them have never been asked those kinds of questions before?
Antwi: Yes. One question that makes people stop and think is: “Are you religious?” It is a binary—yes or no. Moreover, often, someone will answer “yes,” but then explain they have not been to church for two months, and now they think they are an atheist. That highlights the confusion. However, we are doing our best to provide clarity and support.
Jacobsen: In Canada, I used to write for a publication called Canadian Atheist. The editor-in-chief has since disappeared, and the website is now offline. I archived everything I wrote—over a few years, I published around 1,300 articles and interviews.
Antwi: Wow, wow.
Jacobsen: So there is a rich repository of material. In the North American context, specific themes emerge from these conversations. As a journalist, I work in narratives, questions, and summaries. One recurring observation—especially during the New Atheist phase—is that when North Americans say they are atheists, they are typically referring to disbelief in the God of the Bible. They might say, “I do not believe in the God of the Old Testament,” or “I do not believe in Jesus.” Even when it is not explicitly stated, it is implied in their tone or reasoning.
So, their model of atheism is often framed as a rejection of the culturally dominant god—usually the Christian God. Of course, that shifts when speaking to ex-Muslims, former Jews, or people from other religious backgrounds. However, within Ghana, when someone says they are an atheist, how are they defining that term? Is it philosophical—a rejection of all gods—or more local, based on the deity they grew up with?
Antwi: It usually starts with rejecting the god they were raised with, whether that is the Christian or Muslim concept of God. For example, someone raised in a Christian home may begin questioning the contradictions in the Bible and conclude, “I do not believe in the God of the Bible.” However, when you ask about other concepts—like the God of Islam or Buddhism—they may not have considered those in depth.
What I often see is that once they reject the God of Christianity, many turn toward African spirituality. They claim to be returning to their roots. They view Christianity as something brought to Africa through European colonization. Moreover, yes, they will say, “They brought Jesus to Africa,” as if he were physically delivered here.
Jacobsen: I love that phrase—”They brought Jesus to Africa.” It sounds like he arrived on a boat, personally.
Antwi: Yes, exactly.
Jacobsen: Once people reject Jesus, they claim to be returning to their origins. However, how do they determine what those roots are?
Antwi: That is the thing. Many claim to return to their African roots, but it is not always clear what they mean or how much they truly know about those traditions.
Jacobsen: Is this part of a larger pan-Africanist movement that has a religious or spiritual dimension? In the United States, for example, we have seen African American communities engage in multiple movements—atheist, secular humanist, Africans for Secular Humanism, and othersHowever, ut parallel to that, the has’s also been a movement of reclaiming identity by “returning to the roots,” spiritually and culturally, reconnecting with Africa. Is that happening in Ghana too? Not physically returning to Africa, but rather returning to the historical roots of their religions.
Antwi: Yes, and it would be more meaningful if people focused on reconnecting with their historical roots, culturally and historically. However, if they attempt to return to their so-called religious roots, there is little to be found. That is how I see it. You might find a sense of unity or connection by exploring your heritage, but trying to revive ancient religious practices does not offer much in terms of clarity or progress. That is my concern.
Jacobsen: Any final thoughts?
Antwi: I would like to express my sincere appreciation to Humanists International for awarding me a grant and facilitating my visa so that I could attend this conference. I am genuinely grateful. I plan to continue serving in various capacities in the years to come.
I also want to thank Roslyn Mould, our president, for allowing me to work closely with her. I now serve as her assistant, and I appreciate the trust she has placed in me and the responsibilities she has entrusted to me within the organization. Looking ahead, I am hopeful that there will be even more work to do, both with Accra Atheists and with Humanists International.
I forgot to make mention of our Billboard, the first Atheists Billboard in Africa. We posted the Billboard on Facebook and Instagram and added the link that contains an interview on YouTube by the FFRF(Freedom From Religion Foundation) featuring our group President Roslyn Mould”.
Jacobsen: Charles, thank you.
Antwi: Thank you. I appreciate it.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/26
Randall Dottin, Chair of the Film Arts Department at NYFA, discusses the evolving landscape of storytelling in film and gaming. He emphasizes the impact of the gaming industry, the importance of sound design, and AI’s role in filmmaking. He highlights the need for aspiring creators to master storytelling, develop collaboration skills, and embrace new technologies. Dottin stresses the significance of mentorship, encouraging students to believe in themselves and build strong industry relationships. He reinforces that storytelling remains constant despite shifting audience expectations and industry trends. The conversation ends with an appreciation for his insights.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Randall Dottin. He is an award-winning filmmaker and educator, currently serving as the Chair of the Film Arts Department at NYFA in New York City. He holds a BA from Dartmouth College and an MFA from Columbia University’s Graduate Film Division. His thesis film, A-Alike, won a gold medal at the 2004 Student Academy Awards. He has directed projects such as Fevah and the documentary series The House I Never Knew, which was supported by the Sundance Institute. He has also mentored aspiring filmmakers and his students have achieved success in film and television across the United States and internationally.
Thank you for joining me today—I appreciate it. Now, my first question: How does the revenue disparity between the gaming industry and the box office reflect changing audience consumption habits? For context, the gaming industry generates approximately $400 to $500 billion annually, while the global box office brings in around $25 to $30 billion. How does the revenue disparity between the gaming industry and the box office reflect changing audience consumption habits?
Randall Dottin: Yes, first, people have always been—and always will be—wired for storytelling. The gaming industry has caught up by creating incredibly immersive experiences for those who choose to game. It offers an experience similar to being immersed in cinema. However, gaming provides even more interactivity because players make decisions in real-time. People want the experience of being inside a story while having control over it.
That’s why the gaming industry has become increasingly popular, attracting more participants. Additionally, we have to consider the impact of the pandemic. Many people were stuck inside, looking for ways to engage with stories and entertainment.
And, of course, the streaming boom has affected watching and seeing films in theatres. At the height of the pandemic, there were over 500 shows worldwide airing at any given time. Several factors have contributed to this disparity. However, people worldwide still love to sit back in a movie theatre and experience a story with great characters, a meaningful message, and surprises.
Even though storytelling is universal, it speaks to each person differently. Despite the disparity, the future may shift—one year, gaming might be more dominant, and another year, movies may regain their edge. Regardless, people love immersive story experiences. More choice is good because it inspires and motivates those who create, produce, and distribute movies to craft even better experiences for audiences.
So that’s what I would say. As a filmmaker, I’m not afraid of it—I welcome it because it’s all about storytelling.
Jacobsen: Different industries have different types and degrees of penetrance for newcomers and aspiring creators. What are your recommendations for breaking into each industry?
Dottin: The bottom line is that you have to understand storytelling. You should know how it works. I often tell my students that if they know how to write a story, how to determine whether a story works or doesn’t, and how to provide constructive feedback on a story that hasn’t yet reached its potential, then they will always be able to find work in the industry. That has been my experience, and I’ve also seen it hold true for others.
Know storytelling inside and out. Understand how audiences respond. Get a strong grasp on how you can affect viewers by using characters to create emotion. If you’re a gamer, immerse yourself in various games—study the great ones, analyze how they function, and understand how they were created. Learning how games are structured is important, whether video games or board games. Knowing the mechanics of gaming, in addition to the storytelling aspect, is crucial.
For filmmakers, just like gamers, it’s essential to understand the history of your medium. You need to watch a ton of movies and understand how they work, how they draw audiences in, how they convey their themes, and how to create compelling characters with contradictions that make them more dynamic. If you master these skills—whether you’re in gaming or filmmaking—you will be able to break into the industry.
Jacobsen: Everyone experiences imposter syndrome at some point. Newcomers, in particular, probably feel it more than most. What are some perceived barriers to entry that people in these industries tend to exaggerate in their minds?
Dottin: Yes, there’s always the barrier in the story we tell ourselves—the thoughts that say, “I’m not smart enough,” “I don’t have enough money,” or “I don’t have enough time.” One thing I always tell filmmakers, based on my own experience, is that there’s never enough money and never enough time. Whether you’re a filmmaker making a movie on your phone or Steven Spielberg, there’s never enough money or time.
Spielberg made Lincoln on a budget of $50 million. For Spielberg, that’s low. Meanwhile, Marvel movies today average around $200 million per film. When Spielberg was making Lincoln, he purposely set limitations for himself. He knew that, in terms of box office potential, there was a certain range the film could achieve. If it outperformed expectations and became a blockbuster, great—but he wanted to ensure that he was making a movie sizable enough to tell the story he wanted while remaining fiscally responsible. So, again, there’s never enough money, never enough time.
Another barrier we create is comparison. In this era of social media, people often compare themselves to others who are much further along in their journey. That’s not healthy. Everyone has their own experience as they make films and build their craft. You must focus on becoming a better version of yourself daily—that’s what truly matters. Some people convince themselves that they’re not ready and need a specific time or type of preparation before moving forward.
And look, preparation is important. The more you prepare and consistently put in the work, the more your competence will grow. That’s how you get ready to face the challenges ahead. In boxing, the hardest lesson is the punch you don’t see coming. You’ll take that punch—I’m saying you’ll fail at some point. But after that failure, after making a film or doing an exercise that doesn’t work, you have to get back up and keep going.
That’s the nature of filmmaking. One of my favourite professors in film school used to say that everyone has about 50 to 100 bad films in them. To become a good filmmaker, you must get those bad films out of your system. Suppose you commit to putting in the time and practicing with discipline. In that case, you will emerge on the other side with a mastery that allows you to express yourself fully. That’s how you make the movie of your dreams—because that great film is already inside you, along with those 50 to 100 bad ones. So, keep going. That great movie is coming. But you have to give yourself time, patience, and grace.
Jacobsen: I’m reminded of the unexpected hits—like that Richard Pryor joke about his time with Muhammad Ali, where all you see is the punch coming back. So that’s phenomenal. For those in film, watching a movie is different now than it was 30 years ago. Watching a film in a theatre today isn’t the same experience—it’s changed with IMAX, 3D, and other options. Similarly, video games have evolved into immersive environments with new technological advancements. What skills would you recommend people develop that were not necessary before but could now be valuable in adapting to current and future technologies in gaming and film?
Dottin: Yes, if you’re a storyteller or a gamer, you’re also a magician. Magicians, when they practice their craft, are always surprising their audience. They lead you toward an ending or punchline you don’t see coming. They make you look left when the trick that will blow your mind comes from the right.
For that reason, both filmmakers and video game designers should study magic. Magic is not traditionally taught in film schools, but every magic trick is a story. Every trick has a beginning, middle, and end. Every trick leads you in one direction before surprising you, leaving you wondering how it happened.
One of the things that made Orson Welles one of the greatest filmmakers of all time was that he was a magician. If you watch the first 10 minutes of F for Fake, you’ll see how magic and film combine to create an incredible experience. That kind of storytelling approach is invaluable for both filmmakers and game designers.
Understanding sound is also crucial. Sound design is one of the most underappreciated yet powerful tools in storytelling. Traditionally, film schools haven’t placed much emphasis on sound, but that’s starting to change. Schools like the New York Film Academy now offer more sound design courses. For a long time, film schools primarily focused on developing writers, directors, producers, and cinematographers, but sound is just as critical.
When Ben Burtt, who won Oscars for his sound design work on Star Wars, started, he essentially created the role of “sound designer” as we know it today. His work helped define Star Wars and shaped how audiences experienced the film. George Lucas has said that making a movie is 60 to 70 percent sound. More than ever, filmmakers must understand how sound enhances storytelling—it helps create the film’s reality and unique cinematic language.
The same applies to gaming, especially with the rise of virtual reality. In VR gaming, sound plays an enormous role in storytelling. Like in film, sound design helps create immersive experiences, adds emotional depth, and guides the player’s perception of the game world. It’s another way to introduce the unexpected—the magic.
So, I would tell both filmmakers and game designers to focus on studying magic and sound design. These two skills weren’t emphasized as much 20, 30, or 50 years ago. Still, they are becoming increasingly essential in today’s industry.
Jacobsen: What about the use of AI in virtual production? How do you see the development of those skills or the role of working with AI algorithms to enhance the talent and creativity already present?
Dottin: Yes, AI can be incredibly helpful, especially when shooting on a volume stage—the kind used for many scenes in The Mandalorian. If you’ve seen The Batman, the scenes set inside the building where the Bat-Signal is located—those with the sunset behind them or the Gotham skyline in the background—were all shot on a volume stage.
It’s an efficient tool for filmmakers because it removes many constraints of shooting on location. You don’t have to worry about daylight conditions or capturing scenes at specific times to get the right look. Volume stages are great, though they can be somewhat restrictive regarding the variety of shots you can achieve. Still, they help filmmakers work more efficiently.
I see AI as a tool. Many people view AI as something negative, even a threat, at least at this point. But AI is just another tool—Spellcheck is AI. Grammarly is AI. Some people use AI to brainstorm, generate different ways to explain ideas or assist with writing. I don’t use AI when writing fiction because I prefer to rely on my imagination. But if someone feels they need AI for that, I say go for it.
AI-generated images can also be useful, especially at the beginning of the previsualization (previs) process. However, as you go deeper into concept art and design, bringing in a human artist is important. An artist can provide nuance, depth, and complexity—things AI can’t quite deliver at this stage.
So, in my opinion, AI is a great tool. As long as it is used responsibly, it can be beneficial—whether in gaming, filmmaking, or other creative fields.
Jacobsen: As a mentor and educator, how have your mentorship and teaching styles evolved from the education you received back in the day?
Dottin: It hasn’t changed much. That’s a good question. The core of it remains the same. What I mean by that is that the principles of storytelling have been around for thousands of years. Those core principles are constant. How I teach directing or screenwriting—its foundation—has not changed. Every story is still about someone who desperately wants something but struggles to get it. The question remains: How do we create a story that evokes emotion?
How do we create characters that generate empathy and move an audience? How do we craft a story with a strong theme that resonates with viewers? These fundamental aspects of storytelling haven’t changed.
What has changed, however, is the audience. Today’s audiences are smarter and more media-savvy. They have less patience for stories that don’t work. They crave narratives that surprise them and evoke emotions they didn’t expect.
Teaching filmmaking is about creating experiences for audiences who already know the clichés, tropes, and the hero’s journey. Because audiences are familiar with these storytelling paradigms, students must also understand them. Whether we realize it or not, we are all wired for a story—we inherently recognize when something works and doesn’t.
Suppose we train ourselves in storytelling and its various paradigms and understand the processes and tools that help shape a compelling narrative. In that case, we can create stories that truly resonate with audiences. That’s what I emphasize in my teaching. I ensure that my students grasp these tropes, paradigms, and techniques to craft stories that engage rather than turn off a discerning audience.
Mentorship, for me, has also remained largely the same. Students don’t necessarily care about how much you know—they care about how much you care. That’s the bottom line. People want to feel you genuinely care about their progress, education, and growth. I believe that relationships come before tasks.
Building strong relationships allows you to collaborate effectively and produce great work—great films and stories. I always tell my students that 95% of my jobs in this industry, including my teaching position at the New York Film Academy, have come from my classmates. Almost every job I’ve had came through those connections.
So when I mentor students, I teach them about craft, but I also stress the human element. Being a great collaborator is just as important as mastering the technical side. That means giving insightful feedback on someone else’s script. That means showing up for a classmate’s shoot and working just as hard as a grip, a gaffer, or a camera assistant as you would if you were the director.
There’s an old saying that you get out of an education what you put into it. I believe that’s true, but I also believe that your peers—your cohort—will get what you put in from it. That sense of shared effort is just as important, if not more.
Mentorship is about instilling a strong belief in students—that they can do it. If they truly believe they can, then they can accomplish anything. At the same time, I stress the importance of collaboration because filmmaking is incredibly difficult to do alone.
Jacobsen: Randall, thank you for your time today. I appreciate it.
Dottin: No, thank you.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/26
Dr. Viktoryia Kazlouskaya, MD, PhD, is a dermatologist with 20 years of skincare, cosmetic procedures, and dermatological research expertise. She specializes in evidence-based treatments, including sunscreen, retinol, and antioxidants, while addressing conditions like acne, rosacea, and aging skin. Passionate about patient education, she emphasizes the importance of lifestyle, diet, and personalized care. Dr. Kazlouskaya is also experienced in advanced therapies like exosomes, microneedling, and lasers, making her a trusted authority in modern dermatology. She emphasizes the importance of addressing hair loss early with FDA-approved medications like finasteride and minoxidil. While dietary improvements, such as increased protein and iron intake, support overall hair health, they cannot reverse genetic or inflammatory conditions. Natural remedies like rosemary oil and caffeine provide minimal benefits but do not replace proven treatments. Hair transplants are a last resort, requiring careful planning. Dr. Kazlouskaya also highlights challenges for women experiencing menopause-related hair loss and stresses a holistic approach to hair care and treatment.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here again with Dr. Victoryia Kazlouskaya. We’ll be discussing hair. What are the principles of good hair health? I don’t necessarily mean diet yet; I’m referring to indicators. When you examine a person’s hair, what distinguishes healthy hair from unhealthy hair?
Dr. Viktoryia Kazlouskaya: Every person has a genetic predisposition to how much hair they will have and what is considered normal. For example, if a person’s entire family has thin hair, that is likely their normal. Conversely, if someone’s baseline is thick, healthy hair, that is their normal.
Everyone is very different. Normally, when you examine the scalp under a microscope, each hair follicle contains a few growing out of it, and these hairs tend to have the same diameter.
There are also visual characteristics to consider. We assess whether the hair is healthy by its shine and smoothness and whether it appears orderly or unruly. However, many factors come into play—cultural differences, genetic differences, and styling preferences. What is normal for one person may not be normal for another.
Jacobsen: How does nature showcase its variety when looking at hair types? Some people have tightly curled hair, others have loose waves, and some have straight, almost fine hair.
Kazlouskaya: There is truly an incredible variety in both texture and colour, primarily due to genetic differences. Here in New York, we see people of all races and ethnicities.
For example, individuals of African descent often have curly or coiled hair because their follicles are oval or slightly curved. This may have evolved as a protective mechanism against intense sun exposure. Still, it is a characteristic we admire and celebrate.
Asians, on the other hand, almost exclusively have straight, thick hair. Among Caucasians, there is a wide range—from very straight to curly hair. The variety of colours depends on the amount and type of pigment in the hair follicle, which is determined by genetics.
Jacobsen: When it comes to hair colour, we see rare shades like red. Some jokes about redheads going extinct are humorous ideas people bring up in conversations. Why did nature produce the colours we see, such as blonde, brunette, red, and black? Why don’t we see other hair colours?
Kazlouskaya: It’s difficult to say with certainty. Classical genetic studies suggest that pigmentation evolved as a protective feature. For instance, individuals of African descent almost exclusively have dark hair and dark skin, which may have been advantageous in tropical climates with intense sunlight. That explanation aligns with Darwinian theory, but we can’t definitively say it’s the full story.
Determining the exact reasons is challenging. In nature, we see animals with a wide variety of colours, so genetic diversity in pigmentation is something Earth’s organisms share. This diversity gives us various features to observe, admire, and enjoy.
Jacobsen: Given that variety, people have different cultural and aesthetic preferences. How do you find people using techniques and products on their hair to style it in certain ways? Which techniques do not impact the hair’s health, and which are potentially harmful to hair health?
Kazlouskaya: People style their hair in many different ways, and these are often influenced by their cultures and beliefs. For example, Afro-American individuals tend to have unique styling techniques, such as braiding, wearing braids, or straightening.
It’s a bit of a joke that people are never happy with what they naturally have—people with curly hair often straighten it, while people with straight hair try to curl it. In the Afro-American population, we frequently see conditions associated with these styling techniques, such as braiding, dreadlocks, and straightening.
Curly hair follicles are generally more susceptible to damage. When traumatized repeatedly with tight styles, this can lead to a condition called traction alopecia or traction hair loss. Initially, this condition is reversible, but if the pulling and tight styles continue, hair loss may become permanent. Of course, this is devastating for anyone, especially for women.
Styles like dreadlocks and braiding are also popular among Afro-American men, and we often see particular hair conditions associated with these practices in this group. Similarly, in Caucasian and Asian populations, there’s significant damage when individuals overuse curling, colouring or drastically change their hair colour.
For example, Asian individuals trying to achieve blonde or other bright colours common among European or Caucasian populations often experience hair shaft damage, dryness, and breakage. These are common issues.
Jacobsen: There’s one very dramatic type of hair technique. It’s mostly done in salons, but I can’t recall the exact name. It involves using very harsh chemicals and is often a subset of Afro-American culture used to make the hair very straight.
Kazlouskaya: Yes, straightening can be achieved using various techniques and chemicals. When done continuously, these are undoubtedly harmful. Some emerging data suggest that these chemicals may not only damage hair but also have potential systemic consequences, including a possible link to cancers and other health issues.
This is not yet fully proven, but ongoing research is trying to determine whether these techniques are more harmful than just damaging hair. Despite these risks, many patients hesitate to return to their natural hairstyles.
I think natural Afro-American hair is stunning. I often encourage my patients to embrace their natural style. I grew up loving the big, round hairstyles of the disco divas in the 1980s, and I find those look beautiful. However, in Afro-American culture today, wearing natural hair isn’t as common as it could be, which I find unfortunate.
Jacobsen: Regardless of cultural background or ethnic heritage, what are the general principles for maintaining healthy hair?
Kazlouskaya: Hair care routines differ significantly. For example, while Asians and Caucasians typically wash their hair a few times a week, Afro-Americans often wash their hair once a week or even less frequently—sometimes once every two weeks or longer.
This is because Afro-American hair is more difficult to manage due to its tight curls, and the hair follicles are more susceptible to damage. Washing too frequently can harm them. Afro-American hair also requires much moisturizing, and oils are very popular and helpful. Oil treatments protect hair shafts by preventing water damage.
In contrast, oils may not be as beneficial for Asians or Caucasians, as they can make hair greasy and heavy and worsen conditions like dandruff or seborrheic dermatitis. So, there are many differences in how people care for their hair depending on their hair type.
Jacobsen: What about diet? What should people take into account regarding their hair health? In a prior interview, you mentioned having a balanced diet and the importance of protein.
Kazlouskaya: In general, protein is crucial for both skin and hair health. Hair is made of keratin, which is a protein. You cannot directly improve your existing hair shafts—essentially non-living structures. However, you can make them look better by trimming the edges or using treatments to soften them. Hair grows from the scalp, so nourishing your body will lead to healthier hair growth.
For example, if you are experiencing hair loss, focusing only on the strands you already have will not prevent further hair loss. You need to work from within by nourishing the scalp and hair follicles.
A protein-rich diet is essential, especially for individuals over 40, particularly women in premenopause or menopause. Adequate protein intake is one of the first things I discuss with patients experiencing hair loss. I often recommend using free apps to track protein and macronutrient intake, focusing on protein and healthy fats.
Healthy fats—like omega-3 fatty acids, avocados, and olive oil—are also vital. Determining whether a patient is vegan or vegetarian is equally important, as these diets can lead to lower protein intake. I’ve had patients who, despite receiving the best treatments, struggled with hair regrowth until their diets were adjusted. Once their nutrition improved, the treatments became more effective, and their hair health quickly reflected these changes.
Ensure sufficient iron intake for women, as iron deficiency and anemia are common issues. Women lose iron through menstruation and childbirth and often eat less meat. Iron deficiency is one of the first conditions we check for in female patients with hair loss.
While addressing iron deficiency with diet is important, iron from supplements is not always well-absorbed. Therefore, improving dietary sources of iron can be more effective.
Vitamins also play a significant role in hair health. For example, data suggests that vitamin D deficiency can worsen hair loss. There are many vitamin D receptors in the hair follicles, so even though the relationship may not be entirely direct, we notice that patients with very low vitamin D levels often struggle more with improving their hair health.
Supplementation can help, but vitamin D is also present in many foods, such as meat and eggs. Maintaining a diverse diet that includes fresh foods, vegetables, antioxidants, and vitamins is important for overall hair health.
Jacobsen: What rare hair conditions might require medication or treatments where a good diet or a youthful lifestyle alone may not be sufficient?
Kazlouskaya: Hair diseases encompass a very broad topic. I could probably name at least 30 different conditions quickly, and not all hair loss is the same.
There are different types of alopecia, and some are caused by genetic conditions affecting the hair shaft. For example, the hair shaft might have abnormalities like twisting, bubbles inside, or irregularities. There are at least 10 to 15 classifications of how hair shafts can be abnormal, and many of these conditions are due to genetic issues.
In addition to hair shaft abnormalities, genetic conditions that affect the overall structure and health of the hair are also highly complex. Dermatologists undergo years of residency to learn about hair diseases. Still, not all dermatologists specialize in treating hair-related issues because it requires focused expertise. It’s a specialized topic within dermatology.
While diet is beneficial for overall health and can support the ideal genetic potential of your hair, it is not enough to overcome genetic diseases or certain inflammatory conditions. For example, male pattern baldness, or androgenetic alopecia, is primarily driven by the DHT (dihydrotestosterone) mechanism. Although diet plays a minor role, it cannot fully address the problem.
Inflammatory conditions and other types of hair loss cannot be resolved solely through diet. Even for common male baldness, while diet can contribute to overall hair health, it does not significantly impact the primary causes of hair thinning in men.
Jacobsen: What should men do to mitigate early-onset balding, particularly in the crown or the front of the head?
Kazlouskaya: Men experiencing early-onset balding should start treatment as early as possible. If you have already noticed hair thinning, it likely means the process has been ongoing for several years. The best action is to consult a professional to confirm the diagnosis.
Using a dermatoscope or trichoscopy, we examine the hair follicles and scalp with a magnifying device, either handheld or digital. If we observe miniaturization—the hair shafts are thinning—that’s often an early sign of androgenetic hair loss. By the time it becomes visible in the mirror, approximately 20% of the hair may already be affected.
The earlier you begin treatment, the better. For men, two FDA-approved medications work well: finasteride and minoxidil. Starting these medications as soon as possible slows the progression of hair loss. While these treatments are essential, other factors, such as diet, lifestyle, and overall health, also play an important role.
We underestimated the significance of these factors in the past. Still, during the COVID-19 pandemic, we noticed that individuals with worse COVID outcomes—often linked to comorbidities such as diabetes, obesity, and heart conditions—also experienced more severe alopecia and pattern hair loss.
Recent studies suggest potential connections between hair loss, cholesterol levels, lipid metabolism, and general health. For instance, I’ve seen patients with stable hair loss for years suddenly experience worsening after developing metabolic issues like high cholesterol. Everything in the body is interconnected, so addressing these systemic issues is critical.
Nevertheless, science strongly supports the use of FDA-approved medications as a first-line treatment. Additionally, for those considering hair transplants, a good hair surgeon will not perform a transplant without the patient also using medication. Doing so is considered bad practice.
Jacobsen: What about women who are perimenopausal, menopausal, or postmenopausal? What are your recommendations for them?
Kazlouskaya: Women face greater challenges in treating hair loss because we don’t have specific medications that target female hair loss as effectively as treatments for men. Minoxidil is the first-line treatment, but targeting other factors is harder.
During menopause, we can use medications like finasteride and dutasteride, which are typically used in men, because postmenopausal women are no longer able to get pregnant. However, these treatments are not as effective in women as in men.
In addition to diet and a healthy lifestyle, women can benefit from regenerative treatments such as platelet-rich plasma (PRP) injections, laser therapy, growth factor treatments, and exosome therapy. While these treatments are still considered investigational and are often cosmetic, they hold promise. They are becoming more common in managing hair loss in women.
Jacobsen: What about solutions that people believe work because they’ve been sold by influencers, podcast hosts, or charlatans as the newest miracle pill or technique—things that don’t work?
Kazlouskaya: Hair loss is on the rise right now. If you analyze Google search trends, hair loss is one of the most commonly searched topics. Over the past year, my clinic has almost entirely shifted toward treating hair loss due to overwhelming demand.
Unfortunately, I constantly have to combat misinformation. Marketers use aggressive tactics to create fear around traditional medications while promoting their products, often for financial gain.
One of the most popular trends is oils, particularly rosemary oil. There is a small degree of truth behind this trend because a very limited study suggested that rosemary oil could be as effective as 2% minoxidil for hair loss. However, this study was extremely small, conducted in Iran, and not from a reputable institution. Additionally, we know that 2% minoxidil is not particularly effective, so we use 5% minoxidil instead.
So, while oils and other natural remedies may provide a small benefit, they cannot replace traditional treatments. The danger is that people who believe in these trends waste valuable time. If hair loss is not addressed promptly, the opportunity for regrowth may be lost entirely.
Androgenetic pattern hair loss is progressive—once a hair follicle is lost, it cannot be revived. The only solution at that stage is a hair transplant, which comes with challenges. Many people assume surgery is a simple fix and will guarantee a full head of hair. However, transplants involve scarring, and there is no guarantee that the new follicles will survive. Sometimes, patients end up with a more significant issue than originally.
Beyond oils, people often ask me about other natural remedies, such as caffeine, green tea, or chamomile. Unfortunately, I wish I could say they work, but they do not. That’s not how hair restoration functions.
Many people fear the medication, and there is a reason for that. We know that finasteride can cause side effects such as decreased libido, reduced sperm count, and, in some cases, worsening depression, which is a common concern.
Taking these medications is a commitment. There are additional concerns for young people experiencing early hair loss—what if they are planning to have children? What if they are thinking about starting a family? These are important questions; we do not yet have all the answers.
However, we do know that these medications work. So, it becomes a trade-off—do you prioritize your hair or other concerns such as family planning or mental health? It is always a balancing act when deciding how to manage these treatments.
Jacobsen: Dr. Kazlouskaya, thank you.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/25
Riane Eisler, an Austrian-born American systems scientist, futurist, and human rights advocate, is renowned for her influential work on cultural transformation and gender equity. Best known for “The Chalice and the Blade,” she introduced the partnership versus dominator models of social organization. She received the Humanist Pioneer Award, and in conversation with Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Eisler emphasized the urgent need for humanists to focus on values-based systems and the transformative power of caring economics. Drawing on neuroscience and history, she argues that peace begins at home and calls for a shift in worldview to build more equitable, sustainable, and compassionate societies rooted in connection rather than control. The three books of hers of note that could be highlighted are The Chalice and the Blade—now in its 57th U.S. printing with 30 foreign editions, The Real Wealth of Nations, and Nurturing Our Humanity: How Domination and Partnership Shape Our Brains, Lives, and Future (Oxford University Press, 2019). Eisler, in dialogue with Scott Douglas Jacobsen, explores the contrast between domination and partnership systems, advocating a shift toward caring economics rooted in equity, sustainability, and human connection. She critiques both capitalism and socialism for perpetuating domination structures, particularly in devaluing care work and nature. Drawing from neuroscience, history, and policy analysis, Eisler argues that current global crises—from inequality to climate change—require rethinking economic metrics and investing in policies that reward caregiving and cooperation. Emphasizing transformation over revolution, she calls for changing foundational narratives to create a more humane, partnership-oriented future for all generations.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So we’ve talked about the Domination Model and the Partnership Model, which you consider antipodes within a comprehensive, holistic framework. We covered the long history of humanity in session two. This session will focus on economics, and it’s July 12th today. Within Partnership Studies, when we examine economics, we see that many societies operate within frameworks influenced by various sources, such as the notion of men as “breadwinners” or the “salaryman” in Japan. How does economics play a key role in maintaining—and even imposing—the Domination Model? Conversely, how does a liberatory framework based on the Partnership Model reframe our understanding of economics?
Riane Eisler: There’s an ongoing debate about socialism versus capitalism, but if you examine it through the lens of the Partnership–Domination Social Scale, you can see that this binary obscures a deeper issue. What many of us who advocate for a more equitable, sustainable, and peaceful future are confronting is domination economics. Whether it involves an Arab oil monarch, an emperor in imperial China, a European feudal lord, or modern neoliberal regimes—despite their branding—these are all variations of domination-based economic structures. Neoliberalism is neither new, not liberal; it is the domination economics of trickle-down. Trickle-down economics is the theory that benefits provided to the wealthy will “trickle down” to those below through investment and job creation. However, critics argue that in practice, it replicates historical patterns where those at the bottom are expected to subsist on the surplus or waste of those at the top—echoing feudal hierarchies. What we are witnessing today is, in many ways, a global resurgence of domination economics, marked by increasing inequality and the consolidation of wealth and power. Thus, the real divide is not simply capitalism versus socialism, but domination versus partnership.
I recall being invited to the Soviet Union. We were hosted in accommodations that even had a grand piano. I was one of two American delegates participating in a peace event in what was then Leningrad, organized by Nordic women advocating for peace. There was caviar on the table, while many ordinary citizens faced shortages of necessities, standing in long queues for items like soap and food. What existed in the USSR was not an egalitarian economy in practice, despite the official Marxist ideology of socialism. Instead, it was a form of state-controlled economic domination. A privileged elite had access to vacation homes—dachas—and luxury goods, while many people lived under strict controls and with limited resources. This dynamic reflects domination not only over people but also over nature—what we might call extractive or exploitative economics.
Both Adam Smith and Karl Marx, though radically different in ideology, participated in the assumptions of their time. Their economic models largely ignored or devalued caregiving, emotional labour, and ecological sustainability—what some now call a gendered system of hidden values. These systems placed little to no economic value on care work, which women primarily performed without compensation. In many 19th-century legal systems, including in parts of Europe and North America, women had limited legal standing. A husband could sue for the loss of his wife’s services if she were injured due to another’s negligence, but she could not sue in her own right. This was rooted in the doctrine of coverture, which treated a married woman’s legal identity as subsumed under her husband’s.
This unpaid domestic labour was labelled “reproductive” rather than “productive,” implying it did not contribute directly to the economy—a false dichotomy that persists in many economics curricula today. Neither Smith nor Marx gave serious attention to ecological concerns in their foundational writings. Concepts such as sustainability, environmental justice, and ecological economics emerged much later, in the 20th century, as responses to growing environmental crises. So, to move toward a Partnership Model of economics, we must value care work, sustainability, and equity—areas that traditional economic models have long neglected or suppressed.
Nature, in both Smith’s capitalist and Marx’s socialist frameworks, was viewed primarily as a resource to be exploited. So, what we have to move toward is what I call a caring economics of partnerism—an economic system that recognizes the measurable value of caring for people from birth onward, as well as caring for our natural life-support systems. Unfortunately, the way we currently quantify economic activity—using measures like GDP and GNP—excludes much of this. A tree, for example, is not counted as part of GDP until it is cut down and becomes a log—until it is dead. That reflects the omission of the natural economy, the volunteer community economy, and the household economy in our current systems, whether capitalist or socialist.
Jacobsen: What would more experimental attempts to account for those unremunerated parts of human activity—those missing from traditional metrics—look like? How would a more holistic analysis be structured?
Eisler: First of all, we are seeing encouraging trends, even as we also see a regression into domination. There are concurrent movements. For example, we’ve seen public policies being introduced—and now some dismantled—designed to reward caring. There’s currently a debate between proponents of pronatalist policies and those advocating for genuine support for caregiving and children. Right now, the U.S. administration is discussing a $5,000 incentive for having a child—that is a pronatalist policy. But California, for example, offers paid parental leave for both mothers and fathers. That’s a partnership-oriented policy.
These kinds of caring policies were pioneered by Nordic nations, which have consistently moved further—always in degrees—along the partnership-domination continuum toward partnership. And this brings us back to what I call the four cornerstones of either a domination or partnership system: family and childhood; gender relationships and rigid or fluid gender roles; economic structure, whether domination or partnership-oriented; and story and language. These are foundational. If we want lasting change, we must act strategically, not just tactically.
Putting out social and economic “fires” is a tactic, but domination systems are constantly producing those fires. Without addressing and transforming the cornerstones, including the economic rewards system, we won’t change the structure. We must begin to reward the work of caring for people from birth and caring for nature.
Jacobsen: Does this imply some form of redistribution of wealth within the system, but not in the conventional ways we tend to think about it?
Eisler: Well, yes, in short. You would see a redistribution of wealth. And we’re starting to see signs of that, even in the United States. For instance, independent caregivers can now earn around $40 per hour, which is a respectable wage. But it still pales in comparison to the compensation of corporate CEOs. Do you know that today, many CEOs earn about 500 times what their average employees make? It’s no longer just 300 times—it’s 500.
Jacobsen: I think the general reaction to that tends to be, quote, “It’s obscene,” or something to that effect.
Eisler: Yeah, but the general reaction does not change the rules of the game. And simply protesting against something—without changing the system and implementing new policies—does not create lasting change. First, it has to begin with a shift in consciousness, a change in worldview. It means not accepting top-down, domination-based economics as inevitable.
Yes, the reaction—”this is obscene”—is valid. But without an alternative system, protest is insufficient. That is why I outline an alternative in my book The Real Wealth of Nations: Creating a Caring Economics. I do not claim to have all the answers, but I emphasize that economics is a human construct. We can redesign it. We can change what we reward and even impose disincentives—penalize, if you will—those who hoard or misuse wealth. Look at what’s happening with extravagant spending on events like some lavish weddings. Talk about obscene—yes, that’s a fitting word.
Jacobsen: What is an argument that this approach is not only beneficial for everyone, but also uniquely beneficial for different social classes in other ways?
Eisler: Absolutely. The current economic system is simply unsustainable. It is fundamentally built on the exploitation of both people and nature, rather than care for either. Anyone with even a basic sense of empathy who is not in complete denial can see that.
Unfortunately, domination systems are trauma factories—and therefore, denial factories. This begins in early childhood, often in families, and continues through socialization into rigid gender roles. Both women and men are forced to suppress vital parts of their humanity.
Meanwhile, the economic system continues to reward only exploitation and profit. Of course, we need markets—but let us be clear: we do not currently have a truly free one.
Jacobsen: Has there ever been a truly free market, as a side question?
Eisler: I believe freer markets have existed, and we can move toward more freedom in markets, but it requires regulation and meaningful enforcement of those regulations. This shift toward a caring economics of partnership is multifaceted.
It begins with a worldview that recognizes the economic value of what domination systems label “feminine”—namely, caring. Rigid gender stereotypes are not “just a women’s issue” as we are taught. How gender roles and relations are structured not only lies behind the subordination of women and girls, it lies behind the devaluation of anything labeled “feminine” in both the capitalist and socialist economics we inherited from more authoritarian and violent times. Indeed, how gender roles and relations are culturally constructed is actually a key principle in how families, economics, and society at large are structured. That is why the four cornerstones—childhood and family, gender, economics, and story and language—are all interconnected. They shape whether a system trends toward domination or partnership.
Jacobsen: Are there forms of human activity that are socially productive but not coded as either feminine or masculine? That is, activities that do not fall clearly into those categories but still contribute to economic or social life? I mean something that does not fall within the conventional categories. It is not viewed as masculine, nor is it associated with feminine, caring labour. It seems like a grey zone—an activity that is productive or useful but not gender-coded.
We know activities coded as masculine are typically considered economically productive, and those coded as feminine—like caregiving—are often unremunerated. But what about a third category that is neither “productive” in the conventional masculine sense nor “caring” in the feminine-coded sense?
Eisler: Can you give me an example of what you have in mind?
Jacobsen: I have no idea. I am asking the expert. That is why I am bringing it up—it just came to mind as a question.
Eisler: I am sure. Well, I mean, we have to look beyond the present, which is still shaped by domination-based definitions of what is “feminine” and “masculine.” In truth, caring is a human activity—it is not inherently feminine. In the future, we should not code it that way.
Just look at all the men today who care for children, for babies—activities like diapering, feeding, nurturing—tasks that were once seen as exclusively women’s work. In the past, a man doing those things would be told he was not a “real man.” And yet today, real men are doing exactly that.
Men are human beings. As we move toward more partnership-oriented societies, many definitions of gender, leadership, and value will evolve and, in fact, already have. For example, the idea of servant leadership is gender-neutral and includes care as a core element.
As a servant leader, your role is to empower others. And “empower” is another term aligned with the Partnership Model. In domination systems, power is about control—power over others. But in partnership systems, power is redefined as power to and power with, not power over. That shift is profound.
I think we have to keep reminding ourselves, as Einstein said—and I will quote him: “You cannot solve problems with the same consciousness that created them.”
To quote another icon, Gandhi said something equally profound.
Jacobsen: He was part of the inspiration for me to work on a horse farm and live among people the way he did. He was a sagacious person.
Eisler: He truly was—a sagacious person. And so was his wife, Kasturba, by the way. I am in a film about her. But we do not need to go into that now. You know how it is—women are often behind the “great man.” But in their case, they truly had a partnership. Gandhi said something I usually quote: “We make a mistake in confusing the habitual for the natural.”
Jacobsen: I like that.
Eisler: Yes. And that is what this work is ultimately about—not just revolution, but transformation. Although in times of regression, revolution may occur. Jacobsen: In times of crisis, is the Dominator Model more likely to assert itself in shaping a society’s vision for itself, or something else?
Eisler: I make a distinction between hierarchies of domination and hierarchies of actualization. There are parents, teachers, managers, and leaders in both partnership and domination oriented systems. The key question is: What kind of hierarchy is it, and how is power defined and exercised?
This entire conversation today is, in many ways, about that distinction—power over versus power with. But I also add a third concept: creative power.
It is essential to distinguish between creativity and innovation. Domination systems often contain innovation, yes, but much of it is destructive. For example, the use of ovens to kill people during the Holocaust was an innovation—but it was in the service of domination, of “power over,” of fear and death. That was a blade innovation.
Today, the regression toward domination is fueled by fear. People are persuaded to identify with those at the top. So when you see extravagant displays of wealth—like the Bezos wedding—it becomes a kind of vicarious thrill for many.
Jacobsen: Is it a bit like a royal wedding? Like the British royal weddings—Meghan Markle and Prince Harry, when they got married.
Eisler: Oh, yes, right. It’s like that. But for others, it feels wasteful, excessive, and obscene. And recognizing that takes a change in consciousness.
That’s the key: a change in mindset toward awareness and understanding. We need to spread the knowledge that for most of human history, societies were more partnership-oriented than domination-based.
Look at the Nordic nations. Look at the Mbuti in Central Africa. Look at the Mosuo in China. There are many examples of societies that historically operated more in partnership modes.
But often, when indigenous partnership oriented societies came into contact with domination systems, they were pressured or forced to shift toward domination.
And that’s the challenge. We are now at a critical juncture: climate change, pandemics, and nuclear weapons—all global threats. At the same time, we have worldwide transportation and communication technologies. We are globally interconnected.
This means we must move toward a partnership model—one that prioritizes care for people and nature.
We will get there because of the tremendous human instinct for survival. But on the road there, unfortunately, there will be regression—and there will be suffering.
Jacobsen: I interviewed with a British scholar named Alexander Douglas. He comes from a discipline called philosophy of economics, and he approaches it from a critical perspective.
He participated in a multi-part series with me about six or seven years ago. Another colleague of his, Dr. Christina Alice, offers a similar critique: that in standard economics, highly elaborate mathematical models are often created, but these are essentially fantasies.
They give the appearance of precision and complexity, creating the illusion of doing “real science.” But when you examine it more closely, it becomes clear that these models rely on mathematical formalism in a rigorously superficial way.
Eisler: Yes, that’s exactly right. And frankly, that’s what much of science has been about historically. For instance, until roughly 200 years ago, science believed that women had no meaningful role in genetic inheritance—that only men did.
That was considered scientific “truth.” Then we discovered it was entirely false.
Jacobsen: The good thing, though, is that when science is done well, it has a built-in corrective mechanism. It catalogues its errors and, over time, improves its understanding.
But let’s turn more specifically to economics. How do you see this evolving in the future? You mentioned climate change, bacteriological threats, and nuclear threats, especially climate change. The other two are more unpredictable since immediate human actions, like the detonation of a single bomb, drive them.
Climate change, by contrast, is a slow-moving catastrophe—but there’s a hard time limit. It’s like we’re all inside the oven.
Eisler: Exactly. And there is a time limit on all of it. Think about it: if religious fanatics—people who believe they’ll go to heaven and be attended by 12 virgins when they die—possess nuclear weapons, that is not a hypothetical danger. That is an immediate and very real threat.
Because they will use them, we should not fool ourselves into thinking these risks are distant or far-fetched.
What people also often fail to grasp is that fundamentalist religion—across traditions—is not just extreme religion; it is domination religion. What people often do not understand is that fundamentalist religion is basically a dominator religion. And yet, at the core of many of our religious scriptures, you also find teachings that could be described as “feminine”—teachings about caring, caregiving, and nonviolence. “Do unto others as you would have them do unto you.” But then, over time, those teachings are encroached upon and diluted by dominant ideologies.
You know—”spare the rod, spoil the child,” blaming Eve—blaming woman—for all of humanity’s ills. And that’s why the four cornerstones are so important. We have to examine the stories we are told as truth critically, and we can change them.
The transformation from partnership to domination throughout history happened primarily through force. But today, with the existence of nuclear and bacteriological weapons, force is obsolete—it is anti-evolutionary, at least for our species. Cockroaches will probably manage somehow.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] Mariana Trench bugs. To close on this thought, do you have any final reflections?
Eisler: Yes. My final thought is that we are approaching a point of no return. And the faster we can shift people’s worldviews—change their mindset—the greater the chance we have. There’s still hope, because there are many creative, promising movements taking place.
Look at the environmental movement, the women’s movement, the children’s rights movement, the racial justice movement, the peace movement, and the economic justice movement. They are all, at their core, challenging the same underlying structure: a tradition of domination.
If people can understand that and begin working through the four cornerstones, we can shift the foundation.
Because unless we address root causes—not just symptoms—the system will lead us to an evolutionary dead end. And that outcome is not necessary.
We can build a partnership-oriented future for ourselves, our children, and generations to come.
Jacobsen: Thank you very much for your time and your expertise. It’s always lovely to see you again. I will see you in the next session.
Eisler: Yes—and happy travels.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/24
Michael Ashley Schulman, CFA, Chief Investment Officer of Running Point Capital Advisors, offers expert insight into current global financial dynamics. Schulman offers timely insights into macroeconomic trends, US fiscal policy, and the global tech landscape. In this in-depth July 2025 interview, economist Michael Ashley Schulman analyzes how US–China and US–UK trade negotiations contributed to record equity market highs despite geopolitical volatility. He explores the US dollar’s decline, driven by fiscal policy under Trump’s administration, and highlights mixed progress in bilateral trade talks ahead of the July 9 tariff deadline. Schulman discusses the Bank for International Settlements’ warnings, Japan’s cautious monetary stance, and diverging PMI readings in China and the Gulf. His insights reveal how shifting trade dynamics, monetary policy, and global risk perceptions are influencing market behaviour, investor sentiment, and broader economic resilience worldwide—interview conducted July 9, 2025.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How has the progress on US–China and US–UK trade negotiations during June contributed to record highs in equity markets?
Michael Ashley Schulman: Tariff and trade developments—with their unpredictable twists and cliffhangers—have been frequent discussion topics with our family office clients this year. Progress on US–China and US–UK trade negotiations, along with other trade deals, has contributed to record equity market highs in unexpected ways. Trade negotiations are not the only factor contributing to economic and geopolitical uncertainty—while some conditions have improved and others have not, many adverse developments have proven less damaging than initially feared.
But first, some perspective on progress and equity market highs. The S&P 500 fell nearly 20% in just 33 days from its February 19 high to its April 7 low, shortly after Trump’s tariff Liberation Day on April 2, then recovered to new highs on June 27 in only 56 days. The day before the Independence Day holiday, both the S&P 500 and Nasdaq hit fresh record highs while their 50-day moving averages crossed above their 200-day moving averages, creating golden crosses that signal potential positive long-term market momentum.
On the face of it, trade is possibly more restricted, more taxed, and more burdened than it was at the beginning of President Trump’s second term and yet equity markets are at new highs. Trump’s postponement of reciprocal tariffs and willingness to extend deadlines and negotiate deals has lifted hope that restrictions will not be as burdensome as initially construed. Additionally, the stock market has performed better than feared as several other key concerns have dissipated. Economically, unemployment has remained relatively low, now around 4.1%, payrolls continue to grow, and labour remains resilient. DeepSeek worries about derailing artificial intelligence (AI) infrastructure spending dissipated in April when major cloud companies reaffirmed their commitment to massive datacenter investments worldwide, while earnings momentum strengthened as analysts stopped cutting their 2025-2026 estimates for S&P 500 companies. Meanwhile, oil prices eased as Israel spared Tehran’s oil fields, and overall Middle East anxieties subsided considerably following the US’s Operation Midnight Hammer strike on Iran’s nuclear facilities (on June 22), ending the 12-day war and alleviating concerns about potential Strait of Hormuz blockades. Most critically, Trump’s Big Beautiful Bill enacted on July 4 prolonged his 2017 tax reductions past their year-end sunset, averting what would have been a significant tax hike, even as bond markets show remarkable—and maybe questionable—indifference to the fiscal ramifications.
There is a prevailing mood that we can grow and inflate our way out of the current debt-to-GDP ratio; nonetheless, the US Treasury yield curve has inverted again, with 3-month yields higher than 10-year yields, which is often considered a sign of impending recession. However, the inverted yield curve is a signal that we have chosen to downplay in conversations with our UHNW clients over the last several years, as so many other factors have weighed in to keep growth growing!
However, to come back to your specific question—I have not forgotten—during June, progress in US trade talks diverged sharply across partners as the White House’s 90-day tariff pause ticked toward its July 9 expiry — which of course is sure to be extended — but July 9 was supposed to be the knife-edge deadline on whether country-specific duties snap back to as high as 50%.
The UK won the gold-star award for promptness, locking in a 10% combined tariff cap on 100,000 UK autos a year, scrapping duties on aircraft parts, and enacting quotas (rather than tariffs) on future steel and aluminum flows. London, for its part, opened quotas for US beef, ethanol, and pharmaceuticals and promised to peel away a swathe of non-tariff barriers.
China’s negotiations yielded a narrower framework of understanding that restarts rare-earth exports and keeps most bilateral tariffs at the temporary 10% level while broader talks continue. The deal removed an acute input bottleneck for US automakers and defence suppliers—anticipation of the deadline had led US purchasers to front-load orders—but left fundamental disputes over intellectual property (IP) theft, data bans, and subsidies untouched. The betting markets are still unsure who has the weaker hand.
Multinational corporations as well as domestic purchasers are compelled to write two price lists: “If deal” and “If apocalypse.” I spoke with a real estate developer specializing in apartment buildings and multifamily structures. He purchased a full suite of appliances for about 100 apartments a year in advance of needing them, to lock in costs.
What is remarkable is how few deals have been finalized compared to the original rhetoric of 90 deals in 90 days. EU/Brussels’ negotiator Maroš Šefčovič (I may have mispronounced that) sprinted to Washington, pitching a flat 10% tariff with carve-outs for autos and steel, but no deal!
Japan is paddling upstream in these negotiations; after its seventh ministerial visit, President Trump threatened to push auto duties back to 25% unless Tokyo buys more US rice, because we’ve got to help our farmers.
India is still arguing over lentils and steel; Indonesia tossed the US a token plastics waiver; South Korea wants an extension; and a half-dozen others are probably hoping Washington forgets they exist—it will not.
Jacobsen: What drove the US dollar to its lowest point in over three years?
Schulman: Trump. It is more than just that, but it is Trump.
Picture the greenback as Alex Warren’s chart-topper “Ordinary”. Suddenly, everyone’s streaming something else, and the once-inescapable hook now sounds, well, ordinary. A 10.8 % slide in the Dollar Index during the first half of 2025 — its worst opening act since the ‘70s — set the stage for June’s three-year low.
If the US government seems unconcerned about fiscal discipline, currency markets will react. Can the US outgrow its debt? Yes, but for now, the currency markets have their doubts relative to other countries, and currencies are a relative game! In the stock market, two competing companies can see their shares rise, but currencies (FX markets) are always valued relative to other currencies.
President Trump drove the dollar to its lowest point by degrading global confidence in the steady hand of US policy, threatening interference with our central bank (the Federal Reserve), verbally pulling back from global concerns, handicapping trade (which is typically dollar denominated) with heavy tariff talk—stop-start trade policy erodes the greenback’s safe-haven aura—and by leaning heavier into Federal debt expansion as part of his economic agenda with the One Big Beautiful Bill adding trillions to the deficit, thereby directly eroding confidence in the dollar and finally triggering Moody’s to lower its US debt rating in May which admittedly it had put on negative watch 18 months prior during the Biden administration.
Also, interest rate futures now price roughly ¾-point of Fed cuts by year-end under Chair Jerome Powell—although I still downplay the possibility of lower Fed rates this year for Running Point’s internal market outlook that we share with family clients—lower yields drain the dollar’s streaming revenue, making it seemingly less valuable. Markets flinched when President Trump teased a quick-fire Powell replacement, raising the spectre of a “shadow chair” under administrative influence. Credibility costs climb whenever politics meddle with monetary policy.
Globally, and possibly ironically, with Middle-East tensions easing and equities doing well, there is a risk of rotation in FX markets as traders ditch dollar safety for higher-beta currencies.
Most importantly, there is some credence to the thought that President Trump desires a weaker dollar because, A) It helps improve our exports (by making US goods cheaper) and can improve the earnings of US multinational companies with significant overseas sales that then translate back into more dollars, and B) A weaker dollar enables other central banks to cut interest rates and stimulate their economies without worrying about defending their currencies to repay dollar-denominated debt obligations. While many countries publicly complain about US turmoil, they are quietly benefiting from the economic opportunities and boost to global growth it creates.
Jacobsen: Which countries advanced/stalled bilateral trade talks with the US ahead of the July 9 tariff deadline?
Schulman: We may have covered this, so apologies if I sound like a replay. Some foreign capitals sprinted for a handshake while others kept ghosting Washington. Here is who swiped right—and left on US Trade Representative Jamieson Greer.
The United Kingdom made significant headway. China has a framework understanding with much still left not understood, like IP theft, subsidies, and data. Vietnam has a preliminary deal that reduces tariffs from a threatened 46% to a still high 20%, particularly benefiting US importers who have transitioned manufacturing from China to Vietnam to avoid Chinese tariffs. Jakarta, Indonesia, eased import licenses on plastics, chemicals and other commodities to sweet-talk US negotiators, but I am unsure if everything is finalized.
The EU and Japan, as mentioned, are yet to finalize a deal, and they are unequivocally, relatively and essential to US trade and business!
Talks with India may be at a roadblock on farm, steel and auto duties as well as on US market-access demands. South Korea has asked for an extension, which should not be too surprising since the country recently elected Lee Jae Myung as President following the impeachment of predecessor Yoon Suk Yeol (I hope I pronounced that right).
Jacobsen: What risks did the Bank for International Settlements highlight in its recent report?
Schulman: This sounds like a Jeopardy question. What are inflation, tariffs, protectionist measures, and debt service? I am afraid this is not a new story: cyclical headwinds of slower growth and lingering inflation collide with deeper structural faults. None of our clients are asking about this.
BIS’s overarching message is that monetary policy alone cannot secure stability and that a soft landing for the global economy may be elusive. Credible fiscal consolidation, structural reforms and close oversight of shadow banks (private lenders) are essential to keep today’s pockets of stress from becoming tomorrow’s crisis—this is not new news. Realistically, although their report was published at the end of June, I have to assume that most of the thought and apprehensions that went into it were calcified a couple of months ago when tariff turmoil was trending.
Interestingly, the report advocates for tokenization’s ability to deliver digital innovation to central banks by preserving trust and value in ways that stablecoins cannot—this has been a topic of theirs for at least a couple of years.
Jacobsen: Why did the Bank of Japan maintain its policy rate at 0.5%?
Schulman: The Bank of Japan (BoJ) has tasted positive-rate life and, for now, has decided a polite half-point is plenty. With core inflation still bubbling around 3½% %—well above its 2%target—and BoJ Governor Ueda fretting over tariff cross-winds and a yen that still seems to be in a weakening trend even though it is considerably stronger than it was at this time last year, there could be reason for them to hike. However, for now, the BoJ Board froze the overnight rate at 0.5% and even dialled back the pace of bond-purchase tapering to avoid a sugar crash in JGB (Japanese bond) markets—had they raised rates, bond prices would have likely tumbled. Hawkish Board members (e.g., Hajime Takata) insist this is only a pause before the sequel, but the script probably depends on US trade twists and wage growth.
For investors, this means that Tokyo remains the monetary version of “Stranger Things”, i.e., the upside-down of global policy. In contrast, the Fed is parked at a lofty 4.5% and debating when to resume cuts; the ECB just delivered its eighth quarter-point trim, nudging the deposit rate to 2%; and the Bank of England has tiptoed south from 5.25 to 4.25% with its series of cuts.
The net result is that the yen carry trade still wears the superhero cape—hedge funds can fund in yen and chase higher-yielding assets abroad, but the crusader of cheap lending (the yen) has become less predictable. When the BoJ raises rates again, you could see a risk-off move as more hedge funds unwind a portion of their carry trade out of fear that the yen will rise and make paying back their borrowings more expensive. For now, traders can still play the differential but need to keep one eye open for any sudden tremors.
Jacobsen: What do the divergent PMI readings in China and the Gulf economies reveal about regional economic resilience/dependence on global trade flows now?
Schulman: I do not have the numbers off the top of my head, but the Gulf states have positive PMIs above 50 while China has been bouncing above and below 50 for the last year and has been below 50 over the last three months. It is important to understand that PMI readings can highlight different things across the globe.
China’s PMI is a proxy for shipping container traffic—Beijing’s growth narrative still leans on external tailwinds—and a reading below 50 may indicate a post-tariff hangover combined with an inability to stimulate enough domestic spending. By contrast, the Gulf readings owe less to container counts and more to petrodollar-fueled spending on megaprojects, tourism influxes, sovereign-backed capital expenditures, and robust domestic demand. Strong Gulf PMIs imply steady infrastructure steel and cement demand even if China’s appetite plateaus.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Michael.
Schulman: Thank you, always a pleasure to chat with you, Scott.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/23
Bern Mendez, a relationship coach with over 14 years of experience, is known for empowering professional women to build meaningful romantic partnerships. Certified in Strategic Intervention and influenced by neuroscience and emotional attunement, Mendez shares insights on dating abroad, demographic imbalances, cultural dynamics, and emotional self-awareness. He emphasizes authenticity, values clarity, and realistic expectations in navigating today’s dating landscape. With a large global following and proven results, he advises women—especially high-achieving professionals—on how to expand their dating pool without compromising core values. His approach combines practical strategy with profound emotional insight for lasting relational success.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, I am pleased to be speaking with Bern Mendez. He is a dating and relationship coach with over fourteen years of experience. Mentored by Tony Robbins and certified in Strategic Intervention, Bern blends neuroscience-based emotional attunement with practical, real-world strategies to help professional women overcome emotional blocks and build committed, fulfilling partnerships.
His work empowers women to cultivate self-worth, emotional safety, and genuine connection. His YouTube channel, with over 226,000 subscribers and more than 30 million views, ranks among the top 12 most-subscribed dating advice platforms for women globally. He has guided women—including Fortune 100 executives, physicians, lawyers, therapists, and entrepreneurs—in over 24 countries. His insights have appeared in Redbook, CNN Money, Univision TV, HuffPost Live, MindBodyGreen, and other major outlets. Thank you very much for joining me today.
Bern Mendez: I appreciate the invitation—thank you for having me.
Jacobsen: What inspired your focus on helping professional women navigate dating abroad?
Mendez: That’s a great question. People often assume that going international dramatically expands the dating pool, which can be true. However, I distinguish between someone who is simply travelling and looking for a casual or enriching dating experience versus someone who is relocating to another country.
In the first case, yes—there can be fun, discovery, and sometimes meaningful connection. But if someone is moving abroad—especially with the hope of building a life there—they’re often seeking something more aligned, more lasting. They’re usually looking for the kind of relationship they may not have found in their previous location. So, I approach those scenarios differently because the intentions, environments, and cultural frameworks are not the same.
Jacobsen: And for you—why did you choose to focus on this particular demographic?
Mendez: It evolved organically. When I started coaching, I wasn’t specifically targeting professional women or even focusing exclusively on dating. I was helping people navigate significant life changes. Through that process, I noticed that a large portion of those who resonated with my work were high-achieving women—intelligent, successful, emotionally aware—but still struggling to create the kind of romantic relationship that matched the rest of their lives.
As I continued to listen and learn, it became clear that there was a gap—and that I could help fill it. My background encompasses a thorough examination of relationships, neuroscience, and communication. I’ve worked in many contexts—from assisting juvenile offenders to life-transition programs to coaching global professionals—and all of these experiences have contributed to my understanding of what helps relationships thrive.
Over time, I observed clear patterns and challenges that women in this demographic face, not because there’s something inherently wrong with them but because the dating landscape often fails to align with their level of growth and intentionality. So, I leaned into that work, and it has been gratifying.
So to get what you want—if you’re, as I said, a successful, intelligent woman looking for a compatible partner—it’s not as simple as “it’s just going to happen naturally.” There’s more nuance to the approach. That’s where the intersection of need and my work comes into play.
Jacobsen: What are these women looking for, and what is realistically available in the market for them? You mentioned earlier that there’s often a mismatch between expectations and reality.
Mendez: For sure, yes. I’ll start with this: based on the women I’ve had the privilege of working with and the research I’ve reviewed, there’s a general desire to find someone who is a peer—an actual match.
This often includes a similar level of education, emotional intelligence, financial stability, and ambition. That isn’t about judgment—it’s simply an observation. Statistically, this becomes a structural issue. For example, in the United States, among college-educated midlife women—let’s say between the ages of 40 and 65—there are roughly ten women for every six men in that same category. If you examine comparable countries globally, such as Canada, the UK, Germany, South Korea, or Japan, you observe a similar trend. In Japan, the ratio is closer to ten women for every five men.
So, from a purely statistical perspective, that’s the first challenge. There are more educated, successful women than there are similarly positioned men. That’s before we even get into compatibility, emotional maturity, or life-stage alignment.
The second part of the equation is emotional availability and awareness. Many women I work with are seeking emotionally attuned partners—those who understand nuance and compassion and can communicate on a deep level.
But we live in a world where many people exist in silos—digitally, culturally, and socially. A large number of men may not fully understand or be aware of the specific kinds of emotional pain or relational challenges that women face, particularly in today’s world. That lack of mutual understanding creates another layer of difficulty.
So yes, it’s a complex situation. There are no solutions—this isn’t a hopeless scenario. However, it’s not simple, and it’s not something that can be resolved with a quick fix or by “wishing yourself” into a match that doesn’t exist demographically or emotionally.
Jacobsen: That’s a beneficial breakdown—especially with the data around those ratios. Palette is another issue—in terms of what is wanted. You mentioned this 10-to-6 ratio in the U.S. or even 10-to-5 in Japan. Yet, reality is not going to provide that ideal match on average—not necessarily per individual, but demographically speaking.
Do you guide your clients to consider that broader palette? So, as you said, they can still get what they want—despite, at least on paper, the demographic reality we’re seeing in the population dynamics, particularly in advanced industrial economies?
Mendez: Yes, that’s part of what I do—though it’s not the only thing. One of the core ideas I work with is that if you want to create more of what you want, you need to show up more authentically.
If someone presents a kind of “beige version” of themselves—holding back the truth of who they are—it becomes harder for those genuinely aligned with them to recognize and connect with them. The first thing I help clients do is become more visible, expressive, and genuinely themselves.
Once that’s in place, we can work on expanding the pool. For example, many women are looking for partners with a college degree. However, many men may not yet hold that credential but are highly competent, purpose-driven, and thriving in their fields. Suppose you remove “college degree” as a non-negotiable and instead evaluate based on values, intelligence, and life direction. In that case, you open the door to more meaningful possibilities.
Another factor is height. I’ve worked with many women who say, “He needs to be at least six feet tall.” Statistically, in the U.S., only about 14.5% of men are six feet or taller. Suppose the preference is for someone 6’2″ and above. In that case, that number drops significantly—eliminating over 90% of potential partners based on one variable that does not correlate with long-term relationship success.
So yes, flexibility is key—but it needs to be intentional. I am never asking clients to abandon their values or settle for someone incompatible. Instead, I invite them to reassess the metrics that truly matter versus those that are preferences shaped by cultural norms or surface-level traits.
Age is another area. Some women have had great success expanding their age preferences. I’ve seen clients marry partners with a ten-year age gap—more than they initially thought they could accept—and go on to build deeply fulfilling, secure relationships.
In short, the more flexible you are on things that don’t impact long-term happiness—while remaining anchored in your core values—the more likely you are to find someone who truly meets you.
Jacobsen: But those wants—people might conflate them as if they were needs. So, they end up with a less realistic image of what is available. Is that a general pattern you see?
Mendez: Yes, that’s part of it. Many people haven’t taken the time to consciously distinguish between what is a true non-negotiable, what’s a nice-to-have, and what’s not important at all.
We live in a society that heavily glorifies relationships, often the highlight reel versions. Whether it’s a Hollywood wedding that gets significant media attention and then dissolves eight months later or a curated Instagram post of strangers at picture-perfect weddings, we’re constantly absorbing unrealistic standards.
That kind of saturation can make people idolize specific preferences—mistaking them for essentials. And often, when we dig a little deeper, we find that some of these so-called “needs” were never thoughtfully questioned to begin with.
Another layer is emotional regulation. When someone is overwhelmed, anxious, or in fight-or-flight mode, they are more likely to cling rigidly to specific expectations. However, you can slow down, regulate your nervous system, and engage in some value clarification. In that case, you create space to reassess. People may not change everything, but they often become far more flexible.
Let me give you an example. I had a client who insisted that a non-negotiable was: “The man I date must not have a dog.”I thought, okay, maybe there’s a trauma or allergy? But no—it was simply a preference that had calcified over time.
We gently opened up that belief, not by forcing a change, but by questioning whether it was truly essential. Eventually, she met and married a fantastic man—who owns a dog. And now, she proudly calls herself a dog mom and adores the animal.
That’s a more playful example, but there are other criteria—like age, income, education, and even geography—that can be revisited. Doing so doesn’t mean lowering standards; it means expanding possibilities while remaining anchored in core values.
Jacobsen: That’s a great story. And then there’s the other side—some people don’t want long-term relationships. They’re looking for a brief, passionate connection—akin to a summer romance. That’s also valid. But the people in between—those looking for something “medium-term”—are rarer. So, if someone came to you wanting just a short-term experience, what would you recommend they focus on versus someone who’s looking for long-term intimacy and emotional sustainability?
Mendez: Based on the kind of work I do, I don’t get people coming to me for a short-term fling. That’s usually easier to find and doesn’t require the kind of deep coaching I offer.
What I do get are people who have experienced short-term flings—and realized that it didn’t fulfill them or bring lasting satisfaction. So they come to me wanting something more meaningful, more emotionally grounded.
That said, if someone hypothetically came to me looking for a short-term romance, I’d still encourage them to clarify their values and emotional boundaries. Just because something is short-term doesn’t mean it should lack intentionality, consent, or emotional awareness. The experience should still feel safe, enriching, and aligned with your goals.
However, for the majority of my clients who are seeking long-term, emotionally intimate relationships, my recommendations always begin with internal alignment: clarifying what truly matters to them, fostering emotional self-awareness, and learning to communicate their needs effectively. From there, we examine the environment, compatibility metrics, and where such connections are most likely to occur.
I think a lot of what I wrote had to do with focusing first on the pool or concentration of human beings you want to connect with—before you start relying on dating apps. That’s advice I’d give to both groups: those looking for short-term experiences and those looking for long-term relationships.
But honestly, I don’t get many people in the first group—those looking for casual flings—seeking out coaching from me. It’s not the kind of support they typically pursue. The second group—those seeking meaningful, long-term relationships—that’s the one I’m most familiar with.
For them, I’d say a few key things:
First, be willing to do what most people aren’t willing to do. The vast majority of people still use dating apps, and they can be effective—but only to a certain extent. The challenge is when apps become your only method of connection.
Multiple studies—including those looking at the effects of intermittent reinforcement—show that dating apps can diminish your sense of self-worth. You’re exposed to high-volume, low-quality engagement. It’s like playing a slot machine: you never know when something might “hit,” and that unpredictability can create emotional wear and tear.
And the odds? Realistically, 1% of matches on apps will be compatible if that. If that’s your only channel, it’s easy to start believing the system is rigged or that something is wrong with you when that’s not the case.
But if you’re willing to make connections in real life, the pool of meaningful possibilities expands dramatically. For example, if you’re a humanist, you might attend a humanist event or a weekly meetup. Or, if you love dogs, go to dog-friendly social groups or causes.
These spaces are filled with people who already share your values. Repeated exposure—being in the same room week after week—builds familiarity and reduces the social anxiety associated with rejection. It creates fertile ground for authentic conversation and connection.
In a hyper-online world, this kind of in-person approach might sound contrarian—but it can help you thrive.
Jacobsen: That’s a strong point. It feels very grounded.
Mendez: Thank you. Another thing I guide my clients on is managing the balance between safety and vulnerability.
Here’s what I mean: if you meet someone and you overshare your life story without vetting them for emotional or physical safety, you’re taking a significant risk. On the other hand, if you stay guarded—if your default way of engaging is closed-off—then even if you move to a new city or country, your chances of forming a deep connection remain low.
So, I teach something I call the “1% Rule.” Be 1% more open. 1% more radiant. 1% more curious.
That way, it’s not overwhelming. It’s just the next step forward from where you already are. And those small increments compound into deeper connection and relational progress over time.
In the context of in-person, real-life interactions—especially within more curated groups—that opens up more than just the world of potential romantic partners. It opens up access to new communities, fosters deeper friendships, and boosts your confidence even further. It’s a more organic approach.
Of course, I’m not saying not to use the apps—but I would say don’t rely on the apps as your sole source of information.
That’s exactly how I would frame it—use the apps but don’t let them be your lifeline.
Jacobsen: What is the neuroscience behind emotional attunement?
Mendez: To paraphrase, think of it in terms of emotional regulation and nervous system attunement. Our internal regulation profoundly influences human connection. When you’re connected to your prefrontal cortex—that is, your executive functioning—you make more intentional, less reactive decisions.
In that state, your ability to attune to another person increases significantly. You can pick up on their verbal and nonverbal cues, respond appropriately, and reflect on what you’re hearing and sensing. That makes the other person feel seen, felt and understood.
And when someone feels truly heard—if they are emotionally capable themselves—they will often reciprocate. That forms a loop. Human beings have thrived through co-regulation. We weren’t designed to operate in isolation. The problem is that many people are dysregulated. When two dysregulated people connect, it’s often a recipe for chaos. Clinically speaking, a full-blown mess.
Jacobsen: Exactly—a classic case out of the DSM or ICD playbook. We’re discussing relationship dynamics that quickly spiral into dysfunction. This isn’t even a gendered problem. It’s across the board. Anyone functioning at a high level professionally has to balance everything else—especially their time and attention. And for many of these individuals they’re so focused on their careers that they neglect the personal side of life. How do you help these high-achieving clients recalibrate so they can make time for connection?
Mendez: That’s a powerful question. The first step is always to help them distinguish between the symptoms and the underlying cause.
When someone comes to me, they’re usually well aware of the symptoms. They’ll say things like, “Every guy I connect with finds me intimidating,” or “I don’t know why relationships never get past the third date.” However, they’re often unaware of the core issue driving those patterns.
So, we begin by unpacking that. What belief systems are shaping how they show up? What emotional habits are at play? Have they internalized that they must be exceptional at everything—including dating—or have they deprioritized connection altogether?
From there, we look at their life architecture. Where’s the margin? How can we intentionally carve out time—not just for dating—but for presence and emotional openness?
Because you’re right—these are intelligent, capable people. However, intelligence doesn’t always equate to self-awareness or emotional availability. We begin by making the invisible visible.
Or they might say something like, “I’m only attracted to emotionally unavailable men,” or similar things—which, in themselves, are not core problems. They’re often symptoms of something more profound.
So, when I connect with someone, the conversation isn’t exclusively intellectual. It’s not just about analyzing patterns logically. It’s about guiding the person to reconnect with their heart, with their desires, with the dreams they may have put away because they’ve convinced themselves they can’t have them.
When someone reconnects with that deeper force of desire—genuine desire—I don’t have to convince them of anything. I reflect their truth to them. For instance, I’ll ask: If this is what you’re feeling in your heart, how does that line up with your current lifestyle?
You’re working 80 hours a week. How do you see yourself finding the kind of love you say you want within that structure?
It’s about helping them uncover the blind spot. Often, they realize there’s a hole in my plan.
Now, that doesn’t mean we make drastic changes overnight. I don’t say, “Go from 80 hours to 40.” That’s not realistic. However, what is realistic is carving out one hour a week for something that breaks the pattern—something nourishing and unexpected.
Maybe it’s as simple as taking off your shoes and walking barefoot in nature—without your phone. Just being. That kind of experience can reignite the internal compass toward what they’re truly missing—not through pressure, but through intrinsic motivation.
There’s a quote by Antoine de Saint-Exupéry, the author of The Little Prince, that says something like, “If you want to build a ship, don’t drum up people to collect wood and assign them tasks, but teach them to long for the vast and endless sea.” That’s the approach.
These clients are already deeply intellectual. What they need isn’t more logic—it’s presence. So, through breathwork, mindful questions, and my own grounded nervous system, I help them shift from analysis to awareness.
Once they feel that shift—even just once—it’s game over, they’ll be internally driven to keep seeking alignment without needing external motivation to keep going.
Jacobsen: On a more practical front—this is a bit of a pivot—but what safety practices do you prioritize when guiding women who are dating in unfamiliar cities? Because even for someone like me, I’ve only felt unsafe in very extreme circumstances—like in war zones or walking through certain areas at night in New York. But for many women, the sense of risk is an everyday reality, except maybe rare circumstances like Ronda Rousey. So this is a common and serious concern.
Mendez: Absolutely. First, I want to emphasize this for anyone listening or reading: there’s a significant gap between the safety experiences of men and women in dating contexts—especially abroad.
That gap is shaped by many factors—social, structural, and historical. Therefore, while this safety advice can apply to anyone, it is particularly crucial for women, as they are statistically more likely to encounter risks in unfamiliar environments.
The first and most crucial step is situational awareness. Be aware of your surroundings, including who is around you, and note the nearby exits or options. Don’t override your gut. If something feels off, it probably is.
I mean, some of what I’m about to say sounds incredibly basic—but it matters. For example, if you’re going on a date and having a great time, be very aware of how much you’re drinking.
I know it sounds like stereotypical grandpa advice, but it makes a real difference. If you have three drinks instead of one, your ability to gauge someone’s intentions—your attunement—decreases significantly. And we’re talking about attunement as a core principle here, right? Being able to read the energy, nuance, and underlying cues in a social interaction.
Let a friend know where you’re going and when you plan to return. Even if they’re not in the same city or country, you can share your live location via a tracking app just for that evening. That kind of check-in isn’t about surveillance—it’s about accountability and layered safety.
Also, trust your gut. If something feels off—even slightly—it’s far better to risk missing a good opportunity than to ignore that inner nudge and find yourself in a dangerous or compromising situation.
If you’re meeting someone for the first time, meet in a public space—especially during the day. Please don’t go jogging in a secluded forest at night with someone you’ve just met. I know that sounds extreme, but I’ve heard enough stories to know it’s not far-fetched.
Before meeting, have a video call. Not a phone call—a video call. You’ll learn a great deal more about someone by observing their face, body language, tone, and expression. This isn’t about figuring out if they’re your soulmate—it’s about quickly filtering out the “absolutely not.” If someone gives off a strange vibe, you’ve saved yourself two hours—or more—of unnecessary discomfort.
These are basic guidelines, but they hold whether you’re dating abroad or at home.
Jacobsen: That’s such practical and often-overlooked advice. Let’s shift gears slightly. Let’s run a fundamental matrix analysis. Imagine a two-axis system, with one axis representing individualistic versus collectivistic societies and another representing traditional versus progressive cultures. That gives us four quadrants. Given that you’ve worked with clients across 24 countries, how do you recommend people navigate these different cultural quadrants when dating?
Mendez: Great question. The first thing I recommend—regardless of location—is that people get clear on what their values are.
Before attempting to decode another culture’s dating norms, it is essential to understand your own emotional and relational non-negotiables. What do you want in terms of connection, autonomy, commitment, expression, or gender dynamics?
Once you have that foundation, then you can start understanding what quadrant you’re operating in—and what it means for connection and compatibility. And that’s why a significant part of my work is values clarification—helping someone recognize what is genuinely important to them.
On the axis of traditional vs. progressive, it’s never a black-and-white conversation. It’s highly nuanced. Let me give you an example.
A foundational cross-cultural study by David Buss in 1989, conducted across 37 cultures, examined what women prioritize in potential partners. One of the highest-ranking traits—across cultures, ethnicities, and socioeconomic groups—was whether the man could act as a protector or provider. That study was replicated as recently as 2022 in over 45 countries, with nearly identical findings.
Now, some may interpret that as a traditional preference. But there’s nuance: protection does not mean a domineering “alpha male” who operates from a rigid, hierarchical mindset. Instead, it can mean someone responsive to challenges, dependable in stressful situations, and emotionally attuned.
So yes, many women still seek that protective quality. Still, they also want a partner who is emotionally present, communicative, and self-aware. That’s where traditional and progressive values start to intersect.
Take, for example, women who claim to be attracted to tall, successful, and high-achieving men. On paper, it sounds ideal. But if that man works 100 hours a week, avoids vulnerability, and shuts down emotionally, he might check the “traditional protector” box yet leave the woman feeling isolated and unseen.
As part of my work, I help clients ask: Is this what you want? Or what you were taught to want?
Jacobsen: That’s such a clear breakdown—especially of how overlapping values can create tension in relationships.
Mendez: Now, regarding individualistic vs. collectivist cultures—I think there’s a powerful myth embedded in individualistic societies, particularly in places like the U.S. You hear it in archetypes like the cowboy or the lone entrepreneur who pulls himself up by his bootstraps.
Frankly, I think that’s bullshit.
We are socially interdependent beings. We thrive through co-regulation. From a neuroscience perspective, our nervous systems stabilize through connection with others. So, while personal agency matters, we need to shift the conversation toward relational interdependence, not hyper-independence.
That’s not to say you need a romantic partner to be happy. Many people live fulfilling single lives. But when you do meetsomeone compatible, the right dynamic elevates everything. One plus one becomes five. On the other hand, the wrong partnership can drain your energy and resources—one plus one becomes minus ten.
I lean more collectivist in my personal and professional lens. Still, I respect that different people have different needs for space, autonomy, and interconnection.
Jacobsen: In terms of your clients, what are some self-defeating behaviours you commonly see?
Mendez: Great question. One widespread self-defeating behaviour is seeking approval from someone who is not a good match. The person knows intellectually that this individual is unavailable, unkind, or misaligned—but they still pursue validation from them.
Another is framing situations in the most disempowering way possible. Take rejection, for example. If someone says, “I’m not interested,” one client might internalize that as, “No one wants me,” instead of seeing it for what it often is: “This person wasn’t a match—and that’s okay.”
A lot of the work involves reframing—not in some vague, new-age way, but in a grounded, realistic way. We explore: What else could be going on? Why might this person not be a good fit for you? Why is this not a reflection of your worth?
Those shifts are subtle—but they’re powerful. And they create space for better decisions and healthier emotional outcomes.
So through much kinder and more self-compassionate self-talk, we can begin to undo years—or even decades—of internalized criticism. Sometimes, we become our own worst enemies.
We might never allow others to speak to us disrespectfully. Still, we often talk to ourselves in harsh, dismissive ways. That, too, is a self-defeating pattern.
Another self-defeating behaviour is not understanding your actual needs. People often confuse what feels familiar—what their comfort zone tells them is “normal”—with what helps them grow.
There’s a concept called a Class Two Experience—something that may not feel great in the moment but is ultimately good for you. For example:
- Waking up early to exercise.
- Doing breathwork instead of letting anxiety spin out of control.
- Writing what Brené Brown calls a “shitty first draft”—getting raw, unfiltered thoughts onto the page so they stop looping in your head.
These are rarely the first responses we default to. But if we train ourselves to reach for these options—even when it feels uncomfortable—we create new evidence for ourselves. We realize: “When I feel this way, and I do this thing, I start to feel better. I see more clearly. I ask better questions.”
That’s the beginning of healing and forward movement.
One of my first mentors told me something that changed my life:
“Show me your state, and I’ll show you your future.”
He wasn’t talking about geography—he meant emotional state. Your state—not your raw intelligence or past achievements—will ultimately shape the quality of your relationships and the trajectory of your life.
Much of this work involves learning to create a state that serves you best rather than letting maladaptive emotional patterns run the show.
Jacobsen: Mentors are human beings, too. Since Tony Robbins mentored you—what do you think he gets most right? And what do you think he gets most wrong?
Mendez: Great question. What Tony gets right is the immense power of self-talk. The language we use with ourselves and others profoundly shapes the meaning we give to life—and that, in turn, shapes how we experience the world. I credit him with helping me grasp the transformative power of that early on.
Where I think he gets it wrong—at least in some contexts—is in his understanding of trauma. There’s often a tendency to bypass or override deep pain with strategies that may work for some but are totally ineffective—or even harmful—for others.
It’s one thing to reframe. It’s another thing to disregard real emotional wounds in favour of a quick motivational fix.
I learned a great deal from him, but it’s been years since I participated in his comprehensive seminar ecosystem. These days, I gravitate more toward modalities that take trauma seriously and aren’t framed around large-scale hype.
And I’ll be honest: the “20,000 people clapping in sync” thing? That used to excite me when I was 24. But now, I much prefer sitting in a room with five thoughtful people, having a deep, honest conversation.
Jacobsen: What are some of your top quotes—the ones that come to mind most often in the context of dating and relationships?
Mendez: I’ll start with Maya Angelou:
“Do the best you can until you know better. When you know better, do better.”
That’s a life guideline for me.
My favourite poet is David Whyte. I’ll paraphrase slightly since it’s more of an extended passage than a quote. He addresses two concepts that have profoundly impacted me.
One is this idea of “half a shade more courage.” It’s not even a full leap—just half a shade more. That incremental movement has felt deeply meaningful in my life.
The second is from one of his prose pieces—possibly not even a poem—where he writes that when you can accurately express the dimensionality of your exile—how far you are from where you want to be—you’re already on your way home. That has stayed with me.
And, of course, there’s the classic:
“Be the change you want to see in the world.”
Simple, yes—but foundational.
Those are three that are top of mind right now.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Sir, it was very nice to meet you. Thank you for your time, your expertise, and time.and your candour.
Mendez: I appreciate that. Thank you so much.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/23
Carl Ola Landgren, M.D., Ph.D., is Director of the Sylvester Myeloma Institute and Chief of the Division of Myeloma at the Sylvester Comprehensive Cancer Center, University of Miami. An internationally recognized leader in multiple myeloma research, he pioneered the use of minimal residual disease (MRD) as a surrogate endpoint for the accelerated approval of drugs. His work integrates cutting-edge diagnostics, personalized therapies, and innovative clinical trial models to improve outcomes and quality of life. Dr. Landgren’s long-term vision focuses on redefining disease classifications, eliminating toxic treatments, and advancing MRD-based strategies to move the field closer to functional cures.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, what motivated the original push to recognize minimal residual disease as an endpoint for accelerated drug approval?
Dr. Carl Ola Landgren: I led the early work on using minimal residual disease, or MRD, as an endpoint for accelerated approval in multiple myeloma over fifteen years ago. At the time, I was working at the National Cancer Institute (NCI), apart of the National Institutes of Health (NIH) in Bethesda, Maryland. We had access to highly effective drugs and treated patients directly at the NIH Clinical Center. We observed that a significant proportion of patients achieved complete responses or remissions.
Given the level of success, I began to consider a critical question: if nearly every patient achieves remission, how do we determine whether any disease remains—and whether that matters for long-term outcomes? It became clear that we needed more sensitive tools to distinguish between truly disease-free patients and those who had undetectable but persistent residual disease.
We began developing and refining more sensitive assays to detect minimal residual disease (MRD). As these technologies advanced, we observed that patients who were MRD-negative—meaning no residual disease was detectable even with the most sensitive methods—had significantly better long-term outcomes. This was a crucial insight.
MRD status could function as a predictive biomarker. If MRD-negative patients consistently showed improved progression-free survival (PFS), then MRD could serve as a surrogate endpoint. That, in turn, would allow us to evaluate new treatments much earlier—potentially within a year—rather than waiting ten to fifteen years for traditional endpoints, such as PFS or overall survival, to mature.
Without a validated early endpoint, I feared that the pace of innovation would stall. Drug developers might be reluctant to invest in new therapies if proving their efficacy requires prohibitively long trials. The field needed a way to measure meaningful benefits much sooner.
In 2009, I helped launch an interagency initiative between the NIH and the FDA to formally evaluate MRD as a potential surrogate endpoint. This effort eventually culminated in the Evidence Meta-Analysis, which we submitted to the FDA last year. That work formed the basis for regulatory consideration of MRD as an endpoint in clinical trials.
Jacobsen: Regarding MRD as an endpoint in clinical trials, specifically for multiple myeloma, how does its inclusion affect the speed and structure of drug development?
Landgren: Incorporating MRD as an early endpoint is a transformative development. Under the traditional model, you need a large, randomized, controlled trial comparing an experimental therapy to a standard-of-care control arm. You then have to wait—often ten to fifteen years—for enough progression or death events to occur in both arms to conduct a mature statistical analysis based on PFS or overall survival.
That timeline delays patient access to promising new therapies, making clinical development slower and more expensive. However, if we can rely on MRD as a validated surrogate endpoint—one that strongly predicts long-term benefit—we can potentially assess efficacy within a year after randomization.
This allows for much earlier readouts and faster regulatory decisions. It also provides a more dynamic and adaptive framework for evaluating treatment regimens. Importantly, it gives patients faster access to therapies that show strong early indications of benefit.
Jacobsen: You are saying you have a biomarker, and that biomarker can be tested one year after randomization to predict what will happen ten to fifteen years later?
Landgren: That means you can open the study, enroll patients, and one year after randomization, check the biomarker in both study arms. If you see a higher rate of MRD negativity—MRD being the biomarker—that means you can predict that progression-free survival ten or fifteen years later will be more prolonged.
So, you submit your MRD results to the FDA, and they can review that data and potentially grant accelerated approval. Once that happens, the drug becomes immediately available to patients, giving them access to treatment more than ten years earlier than they would under traditional timelines.
Of course, the study must continue in order to capture the clinical endpoint—progression-free survival. If that data, once mature, confirms the superiority of the drug, then the FDA may grant full approval. While the drug company can use the early MRD endpoint to obtain accelerated approval, it still must complete the study, collect all required data, and pursue full approval.
If the follow-up study fails to confirm the benefit, the drug will be removed from the market. However, we have shown that MRD is a powerful predictor of progression-free survival. If everything follows the expected trajectory, it provides much faster access to effective treatments.
Jacobsen: What types of cancer are most likely to follow multiple myeloma in adopting MRD as a regulatory endpoint?
Landgren: I first saw the potential for this approach when I was working at the National Cancer Institute, part of the NIH, more than twenty years ago. I began pursuing this work then, though it took a long time to convince others. Many people told me it was just a theory—that it would be impossible to persuade the FDA. However, I knew it was the only viable path forward, so we persisted.
Other groups eventually became interested in this area as well. One group formed during our work—the so-called I² team or I-team group. They began similar work in myeloma after seeing what we were doing.
Our efforts also inspired others to begin thinking about MRD in additional disease areas. I have many friends around the world working on related research. Long ago, I was also interested in diseases such as chronic lymphocytic leukemia, lymphomas, and other hematologic malignancies, and I maintained close contact with colleagues in those fields.
Just this week, I spoke with colleagues working in the field of lymphoma. A few weeks ago, I spoke with researchers in the chronic lymphocytic leukemia space. These conversations happen frequently. Many of them are trying to replicate, in their respective fields, the kind of work we did in myeloma. They often reach out to me for advice.
At some point, they may succeed. However, it is not as simple as copying what we did and submitting it. They must generate all the data themselves. It is a substantial undertaking. You need to conduct numerous studies, including randomized controlled trials. You need to analyze different drugs in parallel. You must also conduct a detailed statistical analysis.
That analysis must follow a predefined statistical analysis plan, and the FDA must endorse that plan. Once you have sufficient data and an FDA-endorsed plan, you can perform the analysis and submit your results for FDA review. With enough rigour and compelling data, you may receive approval.
For us, that entire process took about fifteen years. So, I worked on it for fifteen years. However, given that we have now created a precedent—that it is possible to do so—other diseases may be able to adopt this approach in just a few years. Hopefully, the timeline can be much, much faster. That could apply to other diseases, potentially including some solid tumours.
The critical part is that you need several key components in place: you must have good drugs, a standardized tool to measure the biomarker—MRD—and studies conducted in a harmonized way. This ensures you can pool data and conduct a large-scale analysis involving multiple drugs studied in parallel. Yes, it requires multiple components.
Jacobsen: What about the limitations of MRD as a biomarker, particularly in solid tumours or other blood cancers?
Landgren: That is an important question. In general, biomarkers have inherent limitations simply because they are proxies—they are not the final clinical outcome. If progression-free survival is the ultimate goal, nothing can be more definitive than measuring progression-free survival itself. You could think of it like this: if you are navigating through the wilderness, a map can be very accurate, but the real landscape is always more precise. However, with an excellent map, you can get very far.
That analogy holds for biomarkers. They serve as intermediate indicators of reality. What we demonstrated—across many drugs, many studies, and various patient populations—is that MRD is a robust and predictive measure. However, as a general caveat, reality always wins. That is why, under current regulatory frameworks, you must still submit final clinical outcomes, such as progression-free survival, to gain full approval.
That said, I do believe that with the accumulation of data in myeloma—if more and more studies continue to replicate our findings—MRD could eventually become accepted as a standalone endpoint for full approval. For now, though, MRD remains an endpoint for early or accelerated approval. You still need to submit the clinical data showing progression-free survival.
So, that is one type of limitation—one that applies to any biomarker, not just to MRD or to myeloma. It is a general limitation of surrogate endpoints.
When we think about MRD in solid tumours or other hematologic malignancies, additional limitations may arise. Some diseases may not shed detectable disease into the bloodstream or not in a way that lends itself easily to tracking via blood-based assays. So, depending on the biology of the disease, the effectiveness of MRD monitoring may vary.
Still, I believe that with increasingly sensitive assays, most—if not all—diseases could eventually be tracked through blood. This becomes a technological issue more than a biological one. I have not conducted this ranking exercise myself. However, I am confident that if you were to rank diseases by their suitability for MRD monitoring, some would be easier to adapt to this approach, while others would be more challenging.
Another limitation arises in disease areas where effective therapies are not available. In such cases, it is challenging to achieve MRD negativity simply because the treatments are not potent enough. However, my counterargument is that in those disease areas, there is also less immediate need for MRD as a regulatory endpoint. MRD becomes useful when effective therapies are already available, allowing many patients to achieve responses. However, you do not yet have a cure—and when further progress depends on being able to distinguish levels of residual disease.
Suppose a field is still in an early stage, where few treatments exist and survival rates are unfortunately very low. In that case, traditional endpoints such as overall survival or basic response rates may still be more appropriate. MRD becomes vital only when you have reached a sort of plateau—when new progress depends on differentiating deep responses from superficial ones and speeding up drug development by using reliable surrogate markers.
I have attempted to shed light on the overall limitations of biomarkers—technical limitations, disease-specific limitations, and the broader context of where a field stands in terms of therapy development. Those are my perspectives.
Jacobsen: Now, with the shift toward blood-based MRD testing versus bone marrow aspirates, how do you see this affecting clinical research in the medium-term future—say, over the next ten years—and how will it impact both research and clinical practice?
Landgren: My answer is this: life, in general, is about change. Everything evolves. And when it comes to medicine, we will continue to see innovation and the emergence of new technologies.
There is a strong push for blood-based technologies in minimal residual disease (MRD) testing. These methods offer significant advantages from a patient perspective. Drawing blood is much more appealing to patients than undergoing a bone marrow biopsy.
That said, there are technical challenges. In multiple myeloma, for example, which resides in the bone marrow, a biopsy may detect disease that a blood test cannot. This is because myeloma cells may not circulate into the bloodstream at the same rate or in sufficient quantities to be detectable by the bloodstream. So, we need to demonstrate a strong correlation between blood-based MRD and bone marrow–based MRD. That correlation work is still ongoing.
Furthermore, as I mentioned earlier, some diseases may or may not release tumour material into the blood as readily. Therefore, there are biological and technical limitations, and we must show statistically that blood-based testing is reliable.
Now, I have worked extensively with DNA, RNA, protein, circulating tumour cells, and free circulating DNA. I’ve been involved in many of these studies for over ten to fifteen years. I am aware of the research being conducted globally. I also chair an annual meeting focused exclusively on MRD in myeloma and all related technologies. Based on everything I have seen, blood-based testing is on the horizon.
I believe that within the next year, we will begin to see the first blood-based MRD tests enter clinical practice. Within five to ten years—the timeframe you mentioned—I think blood-based MRD testing will become far more prominent and even dominant in the field.
This shift will not only enhance drug development, which is the main context I’ve discussed so far, but it will also expand the use of MRD in routine clinical practice. In drug development, as I explained earlier, we test MRD one year after randomization to predict outcomes ten to fifteen years later.
But if you have a reliable blood-based MRD test, you can do something different altogether: you can use it for real-time, daily decision-making in the clinic. This extends beyond research—it directly informs the standard of care for patients. Say you treat one hundred patients and monitor them using these new sensitive blood-based tests. If all of them are MRD-negative, then over time—perhaps after a year or more—you may begin to see disease activity re-emerge in one or two patients. In the future, that could prompt an earlier change in therapy.
Currently, these blood-based tests are not yet available for routine use. So, patients are monitored without fully knowing what may be happening beneath the surface. The disease can progress “under the radar,” and by the time clinical symptoms appear, it may be too late to intervene early. At that point, therapy is changed, but the patient may already be significantly sicker.
The availability of these tests will likely lead to earlier detection of changes in disease trajectory. Physicians will be able to tailor therapy more precisely—this is the essence of personalized or individualized treatment. I also believe that MRD testing will work both ways: it can help you escalate therapy when the disease reappears, but it can also help you de-escalate therapy when the disease becomes undetectable.
For example, if a patient receives combination therapy and achieves MRD negativity, you may be able to scale back the treatment—reducing the number of drugs or dosing intensity. This minimizes unnecessary toxicity.
Multiple myeloma has long been treated with combination regimens. In the past, high-dose chemotherapy followed by autologous stem cell transplant—often just called “transplant” in the U.S. or “high-dose chemotherapy” in Europe—was the standard. With modern, effective therapies, if patients become MRD-negative, they might avoid these older, more toxic treatments altogether.
That could have a huge impact—not only on clinical decision-making but also on patient quality of life. This is how MRD testing contributes to personalized care, where treatment is tailored to the individual’s needs and disease response.
Jacobsen: So, what role will the Kenneth C. Griffin Breakthrough Cancer Research Building play in scaling MRD research and, as you were discussing, personalized cancer treatment strategies? That is always the big challenge—scaling promising treatments so that they are accessible and affordable for a broader population.
Landgren: Yes—the Kenneth C. Griffin Building plays a vital role for the Sylvester Comprehensive Cancer Center and the University of Miami. It provides a dedicated facility specifically for the cancer center. This focus is critical because Sylvester is not only advancing cutting-edge innovation but also delivering world-class care to patients with many different malignancies.
The University of Miami is a large, evolving institution. But within that broader context, having a dedicated cancer center—housed in a focused, specialized facility like the Griffin Building—makes a significant difference.
Why? Because it enables us to concentrate our resources, build specialized infrastructure, set strategic priorities more effectively, and assemble the best people in the field. It helps us recruit top-tier researchers and clinicians who want to work in an environment focused exclusively on oncology innovation.
So, the Griffin Building is not just a physical space. It will become a hub for those of us—myself included—who are driving research and innovation in cancer. It allows us to work outside the constraints of a more general medical system and be part of a highly focused, mission-driven cancer center.
We are all part of the University of Miami, but having a more focused structure within the university is a considerable advantage. Organizationally, there is still much we can do to further align reporting structures to support cancer-focused work for those of us in oncology. That way, there is no dilution of effort with broader, more general approaches. Instead, the focus becomes the defining theme—allowing us to be more competitive and more successful.
In life, in general, when you focus, focus, and focus again—you go further, faster. That is exactly what this building represents. The Kenneth C. Griffin Breakthrough Cancer Research Building is a vehicle to help us achieve that.
Jacobsen: My final question, which I should be asking all scientists: in your area of research, what would you consider—within your lifetime of work—looking back and looking forward, to be the “holy grail” of your research in terms of disease prevention and treatment? So, you’ve studied certain cancers, and MRD is part of that puzzle in terms of developing better treatments.
Landgren: Yes, that makes sense. I believe minimal residual disease (MRD) is a central part of that vision—a key component in the success formula going forward. The ability to test for and confirm that no disease is left behind is critical to truly curing a disease. You can have the best drugs in the world, but if you cannot confirm whether they worked, you’re flying blind. MRD gives you that resolution—it tells you whether the disease is gone or not.
So, in that regard, MRD is essential. Looking ahead, MRD tools will continue to improve. They will become blood-based, more sensitive, and undergo iterative refinement. But that is only part of the picture.
We are also witnessing the ongoing development of new therapies. The field is steadily moving away from traditional, toxic chemotherapies and toward chemotherapy-free regimens. We’re seeing the rise of immunotherapies, novel monoclonal antibodies, and innovative combinations with small molecules. These can eradicate disease in a high proportion of patients. This shift will also help eliminate outdated treatment modalities.
In addition, the development of biomarkers that can help us understand both mechanisms of response and mechanisms of resistance will be crucial. We now know that, in response to therapy, cancer cells can evolve and acquire mutations that allow them to evade treatment—often by losing or modifying the very targets the drugs aim for. Therefore, having tools that track such changes and guide treatment adjustments will be essential in the pursuit of a cure.
Another important aspect will be optimizing the timing of treatment initiation. Starting therapy at the right time—based on predictive and dynamic biomarkers—will help ensure better outcomes and avoid overtreatment or delayed care.
In summary, the holy grail is a future where we can detect diseases early, eradicate them with tailored, less toxic regimens, and verify that they are truly gone—all guided by precise, adaptive biomarkers. That is the direction I believe we are heading, and MRD is at the heart of that evolution.
The disease I work on—multiple myeloma—is still diagnosed clinically. To illustrate, if someone has a broken leg, youcan take an X-ray and see the fracture. You immediately identify the problem and treat it accordingly.
However, myeloma exists in a more gray area. You can be visibly sick from it and receive a diagnosis of myeloma. However, you can also have all the biomarkers associated with active disease—yet still not show outward symptoms.
That condition is often referred to as smouldering myeloma, and for a long time, it has been managed quite differently from active disease. But with today’s newer technologies, we now understand that many patients in that smouldering group have the full biological signature of active disease. They are, in a sense, silently progressing.
Therefore, redefining the clinical definition of multiple myeloma will be a crucial step moving forward. If we can detect the disease earlier—before symptoms manifest—and if we apply our best available therapies in that early phase, alongside MRD tools to confirm disease eradication, then we can dramatically shift the treatment paradigm. The short-term goal is to cure many more patients.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Well, Dr. Landgren, thank you very much for your time. I truly appreciate it—and thank you for sharing your expertise.
Landgren: Thank you so much for having me. I hope you enjoy your trip.
Jacobsen: Thank you.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/22
Sapira Cahana is a New York-based mental health counsellor (MHC-LP) and is an interfaith chaplain-in-training specializing in existential and relational therapy. Sapira Cahana and Scott Douglas Jacobsen explore the concept of the sublime as both a Romantic heritage and a contemporary phenomenon. Originating in the late 18th century as a reaction to industrialization, the sublime was sought in vast natural landscapes by figures like Wordsworth and Coleridge. Today, artificial means—classical music, immersive technologies, algorithmic stimuli—can reliably evoke awe, yet risk hollowing out its authenticity by masking its existential depth. True sublimity, they argue, arises from organic encounters—nature’s unpredictability, human relationships, ritual, and contextual rootedness—that confront us with infinity, shadow, and wonder, fostering genuine meaning and connection.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here once again with the philosophically broad-minded therapist, Sapira Cahana. We’re going to talk about the sublime. We’ve already covered comedy and the humdrum. So, when you think of the sublime—beyond the musical band—what comes to mind?
Sapira Cahana: First of all, thank you again for doing this with me. I find these conversations stimulating and enriching. Exploring topics we all care about with you is deeply rewarding.
The sublime evokes the Romantic period. The term emerged in the late 18th century as a response to modernity and industrialization, capturing our experience of transcendence in the face of grandeur. It was during the Industrial Revolution—when people fled polluted cities for remote natural heights—that Romantic thinkers sought solace in experiences that moved beyond everyday life.
Classic figures like William Wordsworth, Samuel Taylor Coleridge, and William Blake in Britain, and Goethe in Germany are central to Romanticism. They emphasized the sublime as a counterbalance to industrial rationalism.
Jacobsen: How are you defining modernity in the contemporary period?
Cahana: I begin with the Industrial Age—the rise of mechanization, urban crowds, and smog—pushing people toward mountaintops and untouched wilderness. That unrest birthed our modern idea of sublimity: seeking transcendence, now entwined with today’s ideologies.
Jacobsen: It does bring Tolkien to mind—The Lord of the Rings presents a countercultural critique of industrialization: the march on Isengard, the idyllic elves, and the harmony of nature versus destructive machinery. Do we see nostalgia for a pre-industrial “natural” life cropping up repeatedly in literature and culture?
Cahana: Absolutely. This is central to Romantic imagery: nature as an antidote to industry. Artists like Caspar David Friedrich painted lone figures and mountainous vistas to evoke awe and introspection. You mentioned invisibility in modern industry—reminds me of a thought attributed to Neil deGrasse Tyson: if car emissions were visible, people wouldn’t drive them. The hidden nature of pollution makes it acceptable. It’s an industrial convenience built on invisibility.
The power of the sublime often depends not just on sight but on the phenomenological experience—intense feelings of awe, terror, or grandeur. The Romantics heavily emphasized natural spectacles—stormy seas, towering mountains—as conduits for sublime experience. But the sublime can also emerge in human relationships.
Jacobsen: Do you believe the sublime relates to the physiological response to that sense of awe or transcendence that nature can produce?
Cahana: Yes—while nature is a classic source of the sublime, so are profound human encounters. Intense emotions—whether in beauty, love, or existential revelation—can trigger a cognitive suspension and physiological rush akin to the sublime.
Jacobsen: What are the artificial ways we try to recreate these experiences? Much classical music over the centuries was oriented toward this. It was often composed in deeply religious contexts. Still, nonetheless, it was rooted in a profound devotion to something unseen, something that may or may not exist, but devotion to something invisible, regardless.
Cahana: Yes, I recently attended a workshop where I listened to opera in the forest, among the trees. It took the Romantics out of the opera house. It placed them directly into nature, which produced different emotional invocations—or perhaps evocations. The emphasis on the emotional state intensifies the sublime. It amplifies it. Yes.
Jacobsen: Is there a threshold for the sublime? Can you even experience the sublime in an industrial context?
Cahana: Right. That’s an important and fascinating question. You alluded to it earlier, and I was thinking of Robert Nozick’s “experience machine.” It’s a thought experiment about hedonism—whether people would choose simulated pleasure over authentic experience.
Nozick argued that even if the machine provided maximum pleasure, something would still be missing. It would feel simulated—inauthentic—and most people would not choose to plug in. He concludes that we want more than pleasure; we want meaning and genuine connection. This brings to mind works like Brave New World by Aldous Huxley—literature that explores artificial experiences of pleasure that appear intense but ultimately feel empty or dehumanizing.
I wonder—this is just speculation—but perhaps that’s why naturally induced ecstatic states, like those from ecstatic dance, breathwork, or even childbirth, are so revered. They represent organic, full-bodied experiences that contrast with synthetic ones. We seem to valorize those states and look suspiciously at simulations.
It’s because the shadow side of simulated experiences looms large. It casts a long shadow over the pleasurable aspect of artificially induced sublimity. In contrast, when the sublime is naturally produced—emerging through practice, ritual, or careful preparation—the shadow is worked through more organically. It’s anticipated. It’s processed. I wonder what you think about that. I’m curious.
Jacobsen: I think so. The Canadian pianist Glenn Gould, who was especially famous for his interpretations of Bach, comes to mind. He died in 1982. He visited the Soviet Union and played a little Bach and other pieces of music they hadn’t heard live in some time.
To some, it may have felt alien, mechanical, or even divine—yet it was a man, sitting at a piano, performing with deep devotion. He, along with Herbert von Karajan, was an early pioneer of recorded music. They foresaw an era where music became a private, immersive experience—listened to alone in a room, during a jog, or while biking—enriching our engagement with the world around us.
Much of the music people play in those settings is banal or repetitive. Still, some of it—at the right moment—can provoke awe, even in the heart of an industrial environment. Think of New York City: people with headphones on, listening to a favourite track on repeat for hours. That, too, can be a sublime experience—personal, transcendent—even amid the noise and chaos of urban life.
You always have Philharmonic orchestras in various cities, and those performances can provide the sublime on a larger scale. But the artificially induced sublime can be achieved—it can be done reliably and repeatably.
So, in some sense, newer technologies blur the line between the industrial period and the Romantic ideal of a more idyllic past. The Romantics chose to move away from the industrial context toward something more ideal. Still, you could not necessarily reverse that movement.
To live in that artificial context, you must first build the entire industrial infrastructure. It is not a vice versa situation. You cannot have the artificially sublime without the industrial scaffolding that enables it in the first place. So when it comes to inducing sublime experiences, whether privately or publicly, the context matters deeply.
Cahana: Yes. That’s about inducing. There’s something mechanical that strips away layers of mystery. It tends to amplify a sense of meaninglessness. The trajectory of the sublime aims toward transcendence—toward ultimate meaning, a sense of oneness, or even non-dualism, depending on your philosophical lens.
But when the experience is metabolized in a way that is deliberate, IV-dripped, algorithmically generated—when it is produced through engineered dopamine hits—it takes on a sinister undertone. It undermines the confrontation that authentic sublimity offers: the experience of infinitude, solitude, depth, the abyss. Ultimately, it’s this confrontation that leads to wonder.
There’s an almost alchemical quality to this movement into the infinite. It is not culturally exclusive, even though its intellectual framing comes out of the Enlightenment and the Western philosophical tradition. It feels more universal. It speaks to a human capacity for wonder. It’sn’t limited by culture.
Jacobsen: That brings something to mind—a minor footnote. There’s a not-so-well-known documentary about Glenn Gould by Bruno Monsaingeon, titled The Alchemist. It portrays him, I think, before the significant decline in his mental health. He eventually suffered a stroke and passed away.
But the other thought is that our current fears—especially around audio-based artificial intelligence—might be misplaced. These systems rely on statistical reproduction, not true generativity.
Noam Chomsky has a famous point in linguistics: language systems are built from a finite set of rules and symbols, but they permit infinite generativity. That is, from a finite base, we can produce endless meaning. We need those boundaries to allow for infinite variation—for different styles and flavours of infinity, so to speak. Human communication happens within this context.
These AI systems, on the other hand, are based on finite statistical models that tend to loop. Think of your favourite song played over and over again. Our evolved context assumed peak experiences happened rarely, sporadically. But we’ve created superstimuli—intense inputs designed to elicit robust responses—that we plan for and repeat obsessively. This may be out of sync with our evolved emotional and cognitive systems.
So, to your earlier point about dopamine and other neurochemical effects, yes—it can resemble a drug. And as with most drugs, overuse can leave us unbalanced. We may be leaving ourselves vulnerable to emotional and cognitive imbalance due to these engineered experiences. We are not fully accounting for that.
And yet, we tend to focus only on the more obvious cases. But even subtle artificial stimuli can impact us in profound ways. This brings me to two additional thoughts. First, the value of more natural environments, where there is an ebb and flow that matches human rhythms. And second, the richness of human relationships within those environments, where you’ve had these profound experiences. And they, in a sense, mean more because they happen less often.
Cahana: They occur less frequently, yes—but they’re also situated within a community that recognizes ebb and flow. So, while there may be death in one’s life, there’s also birth. In a kinship model, you’re in a relationship with everyone and everything. You’re cultivating depth, and simultaneously holding the presence of both birth and death—sometimes on an almost daily basis.
And not to overly romanticize kinship models—they bring their existential weight, if you will—but within relationships, there’s a kind of meaning-making that naturally arises. In contrast, to be atomized, artificially induced into pseudo-sublime experiences, and easily manipulated, that undermines the evolutionary architecture our corporeal states are designed to orient us toward.
We have evolutionary drives. They do not pull us in every direction. Still, they do make us vulnerable—vulnerable to manipulation through superstimuli and false transcendence.
Jacobsen: And everything we produce—vocally or otherwise—is one-off. I think you mentioned this earlier, how the vocal cords shape sound musically, and each production is unique. Over time, a person’s voice changes. We can hear youth, aging, and emotional states.
Similarly, every birth is different. Every death is different. There’s a reason for that design—an evolutionary rationale, perhaps. So when we create artifice built on repeatable sameness, it may prove maladaptive in the long term. There’s a psychological model known as variable reinforcement—that’s the one I was thinking of—where the reward is unpredictable. It’s not uniform repetition, but patterned unpredictability. That seems to strengthen behaviour and resilience.
Each expression may share similarity, but not sameness. That kind of variability is more aligned with how we evolved, and how we should structure societies, favouring diversity in experience over uniformity.
Cahana: What you’re saying makes me think of context as fundamental, and the dangers of losing it. For example, encountering a random mountain can feel transcendent. You’re on a meandering path, and suddenly you come upon an awe-inspiring scene. The novelty of that moment helps create the right conditions for the sublime.
But when we’re entirely out of context—and the things we interact with are out of context—when the world loses its historical and emotional grounding, everything becomes rootless. It’s as if we’re constantly presented with flowers in a vase, detached from the soil they grew in. And we cannot tell if they even grew together or separately.
In that decontextualized state, the sublime becomes hyper-individualized and one-off. It loses continuity. It lacks lineage. By contrast, think about birth—as you were mentioning the metaphor of the voice and the birth canal. There’s a gestational period, a timeline, a lineage of genetic material. It happens at a specific moment, in a particular place.
Whether or not we assign meaning to that place or time, there is an embeddedness—a situatedness—that gives the process weight. It creates a slow unfolding. And that slowness, that contextualization, matters.
And I have, perhaps, a bias—though it feels grounded. I will still name it as a bias: I believe we reach experiences of profound transcendence when we truly engage with the details of our embeddedness.
That existential moment—floating on a rock in space—can evoke dread or the existential sublime. But it can also lead to diverging responses that make it difficult to pin down as a coherent experience of the sublime. It is just one option among many—nihilism, awe, existential vertigo. All become equally plausible.
But when we engage with the specific context—say, the mountain that is directly provoking the sublime experience—it grounds us. It anchors us to the Earth, to our lives. And from that rootedness, we are then lifted upward, diagonally, or however one visualizes transcendence.
It may be a bias, but it feels aligned with more profound wisdom. It invites us to confront our shadows. It reaches into the core of what it means to have a transcendent experience. What do you think?
Jacobsen: I mean, context is relational. The richness of any context lies in the richness of its relations. And for us, those relations only matter to the extent we are aware of them. For instance, someone who is blind might not see a mountain, and if no one describes it to them, they might only feel inclines and declines underfoot. That is still meaningful, but very different from visually encountering the full grandeur of a sunlit mountain in a forest in British Columbia.
It is a very different experience. That’s why the Zen koan comes to mind: If a tree falls in the forest and no one is there to hear it, does it make a sound? Or, if one hand claps, is that still clapping?
These koans push us toward the idea of the echo, toward internal resonance. The sublime, in our experience, is an internal echo. There is an amount of sensory input required, yes, but also a readiness to perceive.
I think of Ezra Pound’s line: “The water-bug’s mittens show on the bright rock below him.” That image requires a pond, a rock, light from a nuclear furnace—a sun—reflecting on water, and a mind able to register it. You need the scene to be framed—what Pound called the “four wide frame.” There’s a vast temporal and material context required for even a fleeting internal response in a bug.
For us, it is the same. Internal experiences are never isolated. They are embedded in extended, temporal, and material contexts. And honestly, who does not love a big old rock with some trees and dirt on it? It is great.
So when it comes to contextualization, it is primarily relational. It relies on having an internal model, even one you do not entirely control. Our experience of the sublime emerges from that lack of complete control. We are born into the world without mastery over our internal experiences. And that is a prerequisite for encountering the sublime.
If you are not registering those sensations, something has likely gone wrong neurologically or emotionally. For most people, most of the time, we have emotions, and we have them whether we want them or not. Emotional self-regulation can help us manage those states, but the feelings still come. The same is true for the sublime.
How we manifest that sense of the sublime, what it is connected to, the words we use to describe it—those will be culturally shaped. But the core capacity for awe remains. Just as we see many different languages but a very likely universal grammar underlying them, I think we see various manifestations of the sublime. Still, they are all rooted in a shared system of sentiment and response. Otherwise, we would probably be a different species altogether, with an entirely different framework for how we engage with the world.
Cahana: I was holding onto your comment about what we consider different abilities or disabilities. There are many wisdom stories about people who, after losing one sense, become mystic seers. The Pythia in ancient Greek mythology—the Oracle at Delphi—was, I believe, blind. She was the high priestess who evoked the transcendent for others who could see, but could not see clearly.
I’m also thinking of the parable of the elephant—the large elephant being touched by different blind people, each describing only the part they can feel. And there are Hasidic stories, too, involving blind beggars or deaf mystics. So yes, we are all limited—each of us. And our limitations can hinder us from fully experiencing the transcendent. Yet at the same time, we all have an infinite capacity for it.
That feels important—that the sublime is not culturally dependent or body-dependent. It is life-dependent. It is the very essence of being alive: to gravitate toward awe, to orbit around the transcendent, to oscillate between meaning and questioning, to wrestle with it, to confront it. It is our haunting.
Jacobsen: Are there any psychotherapeutic cases where someone is incapable of experiencing the sublime?
Cahana: Incapable?
Jacobsen: Yes. I mean structurally, where there’s a psychological or neurological block, and it becomes nearly impossible to access.
Cahana: I could not be a therapist if I believed anyone was incapable of experiencing the sublime. I do think there are times in our lives when our choices are narrowed—when we do not have 360 degrees of possibility. Sometimes we only have four degrees of movement.
But even within those four degrees, there is space. We feel more constrained, yes, but that does not mean the sublime is inaccessible. I believe that when the internal tension—the inner gnarl—emerges, it creates the conditions for the sublime to descend, to interact, to make contact. That is the inevitable potential in each human being.
Cahana: Now, sometimes life is tragically shortened. Babies die. Do they have a whole life through which to experience the sublime? Perhaps not directly. But the very fact of their existence—being born into context—can evoke the sublime in others. Their brief presence may generate the conditions for others to experience awe, grief, love, and the profound shadow cast when the sublime is absent, when we feel the finite rather than the infinite.
Jacobsen: Let’s say I walk into a bar… Let’s say I walk into a neuroscience lab… Let’s make it a joke:
Let’s say an Orthodox priest, a Hasidic rabbi, and a Muslim Sufi walk into a psychotherapist’s office. Each speaks their respective native language—let’s say Church Slavonic, Hebrew, and Arabic.
They share some intermediate grasp of a lingua franca, perhaps English, and manage to connect on shared ground. Now, imagine they all come to British Columbia. They look upon a majestic mountain, its grandeur wrapped in trees and mist. They each experience awe. They feel the sublimity of the moment.
Perhaps, at the same time, a band named Sublime is playing in the background, singing about a “Lou Dog” being the only way to stay sane. Their English is just good enough to catch the meaning. They translate this lyric into Hebrew, Cyrillic script, and Arabic in their heads.
Then they all fly to New York City and sit in your office. They ask you to help them bridge the gap between their internal and cultural experiences of the sublime. How do you help someone translate intercultural senses of the sublime?
Cahana: So, first, to demystify your example, these are individuals who are already primed for the experience of the sublime.
Jacobsen: It’s speculative, of course. But religious leaders, people who live theological lives with sincere commitment—even with the existence of bad actors—are generally attuned to the unseen. They are sensitized to awe.
Cahana: Yes. That sensitivity cannot be contrived. It cannot be manufactured. That’s what we were discussing earlier, when we talked about artificial experiences of the sublime. Two people can climb Mount Everest and have entirely different experiences—one drawn to the physical exertion, the climb itself; the other struck by the vastness of the view from the summit.
The sublime arises at different moments. It can emerge in the night or bright daylight. When someone walks through my office door and brings me an experience of the sublime through their cultural lens, my role is to hold that experience with them, for longer.
My goal is to draw it out. Let the moment linger. Help them explore it and begin to unpack the symbolic layers, because the sublime is always a symbolic experience—it points to something larger. It belongs to the territory of meaning. So what is the meaning? Does the experience make them feel ready to die, not out of despair, but from encountering something so immense and transcendent that life itself feels complete?
Or is the feeling rooted in fear, perhaps fear of the world’s direction? That’s what the sublime demands. That’s what I try to help them uncover: what is the more profound message? Even someone as spiritually seasoned as a Sufi mystic needs that help. No one is impervious. No one is immune to misinterpreting the message of the sublime. No one is immune to overstating it either. Regardless of training, ritual, or devotion, we are embodied beings.
And that matters. That’s part of the meaning. Our physicality is part of our access to the sublime. You do not become God simply because you have experienced God.
Jacobsen: Any favourite quotes on the sublime before we go?
Cahana: I love Samuel Taylor Coleridge’s Kubla Khan. He writes: “Beware! Beware! His flashing eyes, his floating hair!” It’s this incarnation of the sublime—intense, luminous, almost divine. Coleridge was under the influence of opium when he wrote that poem—an artificial production of the sublime.
And even in that state, he went straight to the danger—the shadow side of it. That warning, that caution he evokes, is one of the reasons not to over-romanticize the sublime. Instead, we should honour it with reverence, for both what it can produce and what it can provoke.
Jacobsen: Sapira, thank you, as always, for your expertise and your time. Lovely to see you again.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/21
Romana King, a seasoned financial and real estate expert, discusses Canadians’ top financial regrets, especially not saving early enough. She emphasizes the importance of financial literacy, budgeting, and realistic homeownership goals. King highlights generational shifts, noting that today’s young Canadians face tougher economic challenges without pensions and rising living costs. She advocates for early education, practical tools like spreadsheets, and using public resources such as government sites and library seminars. King also underscores the emotional aspects of financial decisions and encourages openness about financial mistakes to promote resilience and long-term stability. Trusted information and adaptability are key to financial success.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here with Romana King, an award-winning personal finance and real estate expert with over 20 years of experience.
She is a senior editor at money.ca and has contributed to major Canadian publications, including The Globe and Mail, Maclean’s, and The Toronto Star. She is also the best-selling host of No More and frequently appears on CBC, Global News, and CityNews.
Romana is also a licensed real estate professional in Ontario and British Columbia through her platform, RK Homeowner. You can follow her on X at @RKHomeowner, where she provides insights on smart homeownership, financial literacy, and expert financial advice. You can find more at romana.com. What were the most surprising findings from your money.ca survey on Canadians’ biggest financial regrets?
Romana King: It wasn’t necessarily surprising, but what stood out was the sheer number of people who had financial regrets. The large percentage of respondents expressing regret was notable, though the nature of their regrets—mainly not saving enough—was expected.
Many people don’t fully grasp the impact of not starting early or not saving enough until it’s too late. Instead of saving $100 a month, they need to save $1,000 because they no longer have the time to benefit from compound interest or long-term investment growth. The sheer volume of people facing this issue was surprising.
Jacobsen: That’s interesting. What financial mistakes did people make that prevented them from reaching their milestones? Not everyone wants to retire or own a home, but most Canadians want both.
King: Yes, the core issue is financial freedom. Whether someone wants to own a home or retire—some people have even said, “I want to work in retirement”—the real goal is financial independence. What that looks like varies from person to person.
As you mentioned, some people prioritize homeownership, while others prefer the flexibility of renting due to the financial and logistical responsibilities of owning a home. Ultimately, however, everyone strives for financial freedom.
One of the most telling findings from our survey is that nearly half of Canadians struggle to build savings. 46.4% of respondents said they had difficulty saving for a nest egg or even a down payment on a home. That’s a striking statistic. Looking back a few generations, people had similar concerns, but homeownership and financial security didn’t feel as unattainable as they do today.
You felt like you had an opportunity—you just had to put your nose to the grindstone and do it. Even with that level of effort, it just might not be possible.
Jacobsen: What are many young Canadians doing when they turn to loved ones for financial support after making money mistakes? Is that a common occurrence? Is it uncommon? Are there any incorrect assumptions in the question?
King: This isn’t drastically different from past generations, but we don’t have a strong national approach to financial literacy. Regardless of what organization I belong to or what job I have, I’ve been banging that drum for too long now. Many people feel confused about financial matters, and when they face challenges, what do they do?
They turn to the people they love because they trust them. So, yes, young Canadians do rely on their loved ones for support.
We also have to consider the economic landscape. Previous generations benefited from strong markets—whether in housing, stocks, or job security. There were more opportunities, wages were rising, and the cost of living was relatively lower.
By contrast, young people today are entering the workforce or trying to advance in their careers while dealing with significantly higher living costs. That’s why many turn to their family members for financial assistance.
Jacobsen: How do generational differences shape financial regrets and decision-making? You noted that generations aren’t that different in their goals, but you hinted at some key differences.
King: There isn’t a generational difference in the ultimate goal—financial freedom. However, there are massive differences in how each generation tries to achieve it.
The path was relatively clear if I look back to my grandparents’ or even my parents’ era. You got an education—whether through trade school, university, or college—you found a job, and you might have changed companies a couple of times, but generally, you stayed with an employer for 10 to 15 years. You’d earn a pension, typically a defined benefit or contribution pension, and then you retired.
That is not the reality for today’s younger generation. Defined benefit pensions or employer-sponsored pension plans have largely been phased out over the past 10 to 20 years. As a result, people now have a completely different approach to achieving financial freedom.
This shift has also changed how people work. Many are far more willing to embrace the gig economy or take on side hustles—something my father’s generation would have scoffed at. He would have said, “Why would you bother with that? Put all your eggs in one basket—stick with the company you work for.”
There is quite a big difference. I don’t believe that’s solely due to preference, though—I think we are shaped by what we experience.
If the younger generation—including myself and you—does not have access to employer-provided pension plans, that will inevitably shape how we pursue financial freedom. For example, I may now consider holding real estate as an investment because I don’t have a defined pension plan.
That’s just an example, not a prescription.
Jacobsen: How can financial literacy help people prevent costly mistakes? Or, when mistakes happen—which they inevitably will—how can they be less damaging?
King: Yes. When introduced early enough, financial literacy allows people to make small mistakes, adjust course, and avoid making expensive ones later.
What do I mean by that? In a world dominated by digital transactions—where debit and credit cards have replaced cash—it’s essential to understand how to use these tools responsibly. It is critical to know what it means to carry a balance on a high-interest credit card and its long-term impact.
If someone learns this lesson when their debt is $1,000 instead of $10,000, that knowledge can make a massive difference. When most of your income is spent paying off interest on a credit card, that $10,000 balance can take years—not months—to pay off. That, in turn, delays other financial goals, like saving for a home, a car, or retirement.
Financial literacy and money management skills, like saving, are crucial. The sooner you develop those skills, the better.
That doesn’t mean—and here I might ramble, Scott, so feel free to interrupt—that people in their 20s, 30s, 40s, or even 50s won’t make financial mistakes. Mistakes are inevitable. Some of the most financially savvy people I know still make mistakes.
The problem is that many people feel ashamed when they make financial missteps, as if a mistake means they’ve failed. That mindset is damaging. We need to be more forgiving—both of ourselves and others. We also need to encourage people to ask for help when needed. Many financial resources are available in Canada, but people often don’t seek them out.
That’s why part of what we wanted to highlight in this survey is that big financial mistakes are common. Normalizing that helps people understand they’re not alone. When someone realizes that others have also made significant financial mistakes, it becomes easier to say, “I didn’t save enough for retirement, and I’m in my late 40s or early 50s—what do I do?”
That’s the right question to ask at that time. The wrong thing to do is hide it, avoid talking about it, or refuse to address it.
Jacobsen: What policies and financial products can help Canadians make better financial decisions? Is it an app?
King: I wish there were a single app where you could input everything and get a perfect financial roadmap, but there isn’t.
I’m a big fan of Excel spreadsheets. When I was in my 20s, I asked friends who were far more financially savvy than I was, “How do I invest?”
At the time, they told me, “You just need this one ETF or you just need this one mutual fund.” Back then, it was all about mutual funds.
I’m dating myself, Scott—I probably shouldn’t say that, but I am.
I remember not understanding their advice. The worst mistake I made at the time was not asking follow-up questions. “What do you mean by a mutual fund? Why is that the right investment?” I didn’t ask those questions when I should have.
There isn’t one app or tool that does everything for you, but you can do a few things. The first step is finding a budget that works for you. I always emphasize this because people tend to resist budgeting. Friends tell me “I hate the idea of tracking every dollar.”
So, I suggest a simple approach—take pictures of everything you buy. Whether it’s a receipt or a meal, take a picture.
Then, at the end of the month, review those images. Visually scan what you’ve spent money on, and then assign a monetary value to something you genuinely want to save for—whether that’s a car, a house, or another goal.
When you start comparing your spending habits to your financial goals, you ask yourself, “Is this purchase more important than my long-term goal?”
That shift in perspective makes it easier to adjust behaviour. It’s easier to avoid financial mistakes when you can tangibly see that spending in one area means sacrificing in another.
This approach is far more effective than simply sitting down with a pen and paper, filling out a spreadsheet, listing numbers, and forcing yourself to cut expenses. It’s easier to say, “I’m choosing not to spend on this because I want to save for something else.”
Jacobsen: How does the volatility in real estate—the spikes over several years and the downturns—factor into Canadians’ financial regrets?
I know some people who sold their homes just a month before the market peak, right before the downturn, and they were quite happy with that decision. How does that kind of market fluctuation contribute to financial regrets? A big part is luck, but other factors are also at play.
King: Scott, that’s the first thing I would point out—I think there’s a well-documented cognitive bias at play here. We know that people have a cognitive bias against losses.
For example, you could buy a home for $250,000 and sell it for $750,000, making a $500,000 profit. But if, a month later, you learn that you could have sold it for $850,000, you might suddenly feel like you lost something—even though you made a huge gain.
We tend to fixate on what we missed out on rather than appreciating what we gained. We don’t value the positive as much as we should. Instead of seeing the $500,000 profit, we focus on the $100,000 we didn’t make.
One of the key things I’ve written and spoken about regarding homeownership is this: when buying a home, you must understand that it is not solely a financial decision. I’m very clear about that.
What do I mean by that? While math and finances should be factors, they should not be the sole determinants of what you buy. Life decisions dictate home purchases.
For example, you may want to live near a particular school if you have a family. That priority will shape what and where you buy. If a townhouse in that school district is within your budget, that may be a better home for you than a larger detached house in a less desirable neighbourhood.
Ultimately, buying a home is an emotional decision about safety, community, and security.
That being said, finances do play a role. You shouldn’t buy a home that stretches beyond your means. If you max out your housing budget and an unexpected expense arises—like a roof repair, plumbing issues, or a major appliance breaking down—you may have to take on high-interest debt to cover it. That kind of financial strain can derail all your future goals.
I’ve seen people in unfortunate situations, particularly during the pandemic. Some were dealing with both a housing market crisis and the end of a relationship, leading to divorce. Sure, they could sell their home at a fantastic profit, but they were forced to buy in an overheated market.
That’s a terrible situation because you’re not making decisions but being forced into action. And when you’re forced into financial decisions, you often lose. Statistically speaking, you might come out ahead, but it’s risky, and much luck is involved.
You asked how homeownership—and the roller-coaster ride of real estate prices in Canada—affects personal finances. The impact has been massive because saving up for a down payment now takes significantly more time.
It takes significantly more to purchase a home now than it did in previous generations. Homeownership is a much larger piece of our financial puzzle when creating a solid financial plan.
I would say that people need to be realistic about what they can afford—both in the short term and the long term—and understand that they may have to adjust their expectations.
Not everyone will get the showcase home that looks like it belongs in a glossy magazine. Instead, we should redefine what a home means—a safe place, something financially sustainable, and a purchase that won’t prevent us from reaching other financial goals.
When friends or family often call me and ask, “Should I buy this house?” The first thing I ask them is:
“If their household has two income earners, should you afford to keep this home on just one salary in a pinch?”
If one person lost their job, could the other person cover all the bills for six months to a year until you get back on your feet?
For me, that’s a critical benchmark. If the answer is yes, that home is within your budget. You may be taking on too much financial risk if the answer is no.
I say this because life happens. Unexpected events—like the pandemic—threw many people into financial uncertainty. Some found themselves wondering, “How am I going to afford this when neither of us is earning?”
Part of responsible financial planning is treating homeownership like an insurance policy—you need to ensure that your finances can withstand unexpected hits rather than collapsing under pressure.
Jacobsen: If people make a financial mistake, how do they recover? How do they aim for long-term stability after that mistake?
King: The hardest part of making a mistake is owning it—just being aware of it, acknowledging it, and understanding what went wrong. Then, the next step is figuring out how to fix it—which can sometimes require making tough choices.
Yes, I might need to cut expenses. That’s difficult. People often say, “I work really hard and deserve to treat myself—whether it’s meals out, shopping, or vacations.” That may be true, but pausing those expenses—even temporarily—can be the best way to get back on track.
The key word here is pausing, not denying. It’s about making temporary adjustments to regain financial stability rather than permanently cutting out things that bring joy.
The most critical factor in financial recovery is a clear view of the mistake and an understanding of what is needed to correct it. The mistake itself does not define you—how you respond to it matters.
Jacobsen: Where can Canadians find reliable government sources of financial knowledge for decision-making? Where can they find independent, trustworthy sources for financial literacy and education?
King: I’m a huge fan of the federal government’s financial resources. They provide extensive documentation on various financial topics, from buying a home to understanding buy-now-pay-later loans and short-term financing options available through credit cards and store cards. These government resources are incredibly valuable, and more Canadians should know them. A wealth of information is available if people are willing to tap into it.
I’m also a big fan of local knowledge dissemination. If you visit your local library, you’ll often find free financial seminars, especially around tax season, designed to help people navigate financial decisions. I’ve personally led sessions at the Toronto Public Library, offering insights to attendees who can ask questions in a supportive environment. These sessions are free, accessible, and a great way for people to educate themselves on financial matters.
Books are another excellent resource. And the best part? You don’t have to buy them—go to the library. Books allow you to learn at your own pace, putting them down and picking them back up as needed. I also believe that online forumscan be useful for starting your research, but I always caution people never to rely on them for definitive answers. Instead, use them as a launching point and verify the information through reputable sources like government websites or books written by credible personal finance experts.
For independent sources, there are many reputable voices in the field. I’ll do a shameless plug here—you can check out my book, website, or money.ca. Beyond that, many newspapers still have personal finance columnists who consistently provide authoritative and well-researched insights. My biggest piece of advice is to read as much as you can. If one financial expert doesn’t resonate with you—whether on topics like exchange-traded funds or building a financial plan—shop around. There are plenty of knowledgeable writers and experts covering these topics. Find someone who speaks in a way that makes sense to you and stick with them.
Jacobsen: Romana, thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate your expertise, and it was great to meet you.
King: Thank you, Scott. Take care.
Jacobsen: Take care. Bye.
King: Bye now.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/21
Irina Tsukerman is a human rights and national security attorney based in New York and Connecticut. She earned her Bachelor of Arts in National and Intercultural Studies and Middle East Studies from Fordham University in 2006, followed by a Juris Doctor from Fordham University School of Law in 2009. She operates a boutique national security law practice. She serves as President of Scarab Rising, Inc., a media and security strategic advisory firm. Additionally, she is the Editor-in-Chief of The Washington Outsider, which focuses on foreign policy, geopolitics, security, and human rights. She is actively involved in several professional organizations, including the American Bar Association’s Energy, Environment, and Science and Technology Sections, where she serves as Program Vice Chair in the Oil and Gas Committee. She is also a member of the New York City Bar Association. She serves on the Middle East and North Africa Affairs Committee and affiliates with the Foreign and Comparative Law Committee. Tsukerman discusses global HIV funding cuts, ICE detention abuses, Myanmar’s monastery shelling, U.S.–Lebanon relations, Asian military drills, U.S.–Russia diplomacy, RFK Jr.’s health claims, and Sean Combs’ legal case, highlighting systemic failures, international law, and political hypocrisy in an insightful July 2025 interview. This interview was conducted on July 11, 2025.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We are back with the thoughtful Irena. We are focusing today on AP sources. The first topic concerns a warning from UNAIDS that millions of lives could be at risk if global HIV/AIDS funding is not sustained. Specifically, the concern is that if funding from major contributors such as the United States is reduced or withdrawn, the progress made in combating HIV could be reversed. This is especially relevant for countries in sub-Saharan Africa, but also has implications for the United States and other nations with vulnerable populations. What are your thoughts?
Irina Tsukerman: It does not appear likely that the U.S. will fully reinstate previously reduced global health aid without legal or legislative intervention. The administration at the time had claimed to be reorganizing the U.S. State Department. One of the stated goals included consolidating foreign aid functions—especially under USAID—though critics viewed this as a step toward reducing or eliminating specific humanitarian programs.
After meetings with African leaders, then-President Trump made general statements about cooperation but did not specifically commit to restoring humanitarian aid levels. He had also claimed that some foreign aid had been misused or lost to corruption, particularly through international agencies. Public health advocates widely criticized this statement.
There has been no significant change in that position. Available data show a concerning rise in HIV infections in certain regions, and setbacks in treatment access due to pandemic-related disruptions. However, this has not shifted policy priorities in the U.S. executive branch. At best, there might be limited public-private partnerships or coordination with NGOs to distribute targeted health resources. However, the scope and transparency of such efforts remain unclear.
There is also a lack of clarity about the disposition of previously allocated funds. For example, Congress had approved substantial budgets for HIV/AIDS relief through PEPFAR (the President’s Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief), a globally acclaimed initiative launched in 2003. Any redirection, delay, or reduction in these funds without Congressional oversight raises accountability concerns.
Congress should be more assertive in demanding transparency. Regardless of one’s political views on foreign aid, taxpayer funds allocated for life-saving programs deserve tracking and evaluation, not quiet defunding. Moreover, weakening U.S. humanitarian leadership undermines relationships with developing countries and global health security.
President Trump made clear that Africa was not a policy priority, except in cases where it intersected with strategic minerals or high-profile diplomatic gains. Ignoring the human toll of a resurgent HIV crisis could have global repercussions, including for the United States. The apparent lack of humanitarian concern is deeply troubling.
This moment also challenges critics of foreign aid, particularly conservative policymakers who argue that private charity should replace government assistance. If they genuinely believe this, now is the time to demonstrate that conviction by investing privately in effective health initiatives. Saving lives should transcend political ideology. If not now, when?
Jacobsen: Moving on to the following item: Mahmoud Khalil has reportedly been released from ICE detention. This has generated mixed reactions in the American press and public. Khalil, an Iraqi man who had been detained despite prior legal residence in the U.S., was reportedly held for a prolonged period due to an outdated deportation order. According to recent reports, he is now suing the federal government, seeking damages for wrongful detention. The amount claimed in the lawsuit is significantly high and involves allegations of constitutional violations, unlawful imprisonment, and procedural misconduct.
Tsukerman: Yes. This may be the least surprising news of the day. First of all, the courts ruled against the administration on this matter some time ago. The fact that it took so long to release Khalil after the initial court order—which clearly stated that, without a strong criminal case beyond the immigration issue, the U.S. government was violating his rights by detaining him—is deeply concerning. The delay demonstrates that the administration appears to treat judicial decisions as optional at best.
There has been ongoing tension between the executive branch and the judiciary, with the administration frequently claiming that judges who halted Trump’s orders were overreaching and interfering with executive authority. However, in reality, the executive branch is still constitutionally and legally bound, and it is the judiciary’s responsibility to ensure that citizens’ rights are respected and that the administration does not cause undue harm.
I believe it is fair to say that, without a clear and compelling criminal case establishing Khalil as a danger to the public, his rights were violated, particularly in being prevented from attending the birth of his child. The government is within its rights to pursue the immigration case if it believes he committed fraud on his application. They can argue he is subject to deportation on that basis. However, none of that justifies holding him in an ICE facility indefinitely.
So far, the administration has failed to make a strong case that he poses an actual threat. They made a brief claim that he supported ideologically extreme groups, which may factor into a deportation hearing. Still, they have not demonstrated that he is either a flight risk or a danger to the public. That failure is what is generating negative press and could jeopardize other immigration enforcement cases. It is politically damaging. Opponents can now point to this as a failure of the national security rationale, rallying support from groups on the political left that oppose the administration’s immigration stance. This situation will not help the White House. They should reconsider their handling of such cases.
Jacobsen: Now, moving on—the twenty-third death has been reported following the shelling of a Buddhist monastery in Myanmar. Can you provide a broader context? Are there any protections under humanitarian or international law for religious sites like this?
Tsukerman: Yes. Religious structures are considered civilian infrastructure and are protected under international humanitarian law. They are not legitimate military targets unless they are being used for military purposes, which must be established. In this case, there is no evidence that the monastery was being used for any military activity. The Myanmar military has not commented on the incident. The official death toll is currently at 23 but may rise to as many as 30, including children and other civilians.
The military claims it targets only legitimate military threats—such as local resistance and independence groups—but they have not provided any explanation for this specific incident. It is unclear whether they believed rebels were hiding inside, whether it was an error, or if civilian casualties were disregarded. Based on available information, this appears to be an unjustifiable strike. At a minimum, the government should clarify the circumstances and compensate the victims. If this was a deliberate attack or a case of reckless disregard, they must be held accountable under international law.
Jacobsen: Next topic—the president of Lebanon has revealed the country’s official position on relations with Israel. The general message: there are currently no plans to reestablish diplomatic ties.
Tsukerman: Essentially, he stated that Lebanon is at peace with Israel, but not in a state of normalization. That likely implies some non-aggression pact or tacit understanding, similar to the arrangement Israel had with Hafez al-Assad in Syria before Bashar al-Assad’s rise to power. That earlier arrangement involved a commitment not to attack each other’s territory, resulting in a very cold, distant peace defined more by non-engagement than by actual cooperation.
However, I do not believe such an arrangement can be fully guaranteed by Lebanon, given that Hezbollah remains a powerful military and political force in the country, mainly outside the control of the central government. While it is unlikely that Hezbollah will escalate tensions in the near term—due to the significant damage inflicted by Israeli airstrikes and the current political fragility of their patron, Iran—there is always the potential for renewed conflict in the coming years as they regroup and rebuild.
Unless Hezbollah is wholly removed from Lebanon’s political and military spheres and is fully disarmed, the Lebanese government cannot credibly guarantee peace to Israel. Frankly, any agreement reached while the government is heavily influenced or partially controlled by a designated terrorist organization is questionable at best. On a tactical level, a non-aggression arrangement is better than nothing. However, it is not a pleasant outcome for those who had hoped Israel and Lebanon would join the Abraham Accords framework.
Given Lebanon’s internal instability, however, a complete normalization agreement was always extremely unlikely. This latest development is likely the best outcome under current conditions, though even that is debatable.
Jacobsen: Let us turn to the joint aerial drills conducted by South Korea, the U.S., and Japan. This is broadly seen as a demonstration of strength directed at North Korea. For civilians without geopolitical or military expertise—or without a deeper understanding of the psychological strategies required when dealing with autocratic leaders—it may not seem very clear. People might ask, “Why are you flying jets around—what is the point?” However, there is, in fact, a point: to project strength in a way that resonates with leaders who only respond to displays of force. So, without diving too far into the psychology, what is the relevance of these drills? Why is this a strategically sound joint effort?
Tsukerman: Most importantly, it is a display of unity. It signals that the U.S. remains actively engaged in the Indo-Pacific region, that it stands firmly with its allies, and that it will oppose any aggression. These military exercises are not provocations; they are standard, pre-planned drills. However, they serve a crucial function: they demonstrate that South Korea, Japan, and the United States share a unified sense of purpose in the face of external threats.
There are indeed explicit threats. North Korea has repeatedly made hostile statements and tested missiles capable of striking all three countries, though South Korea and Japan are the most immediate targets. China, too, has issued warnings—particularly to Japan—threatening military retaliation if it were to support Taiwan in any meaningful way. In recent years, China has violated Japanese airspace, harassed Japanese pilots, and escalated tensions in the region.
These joint aerial drills, then, can be understood as a measured response to both North Korean and Chinese aggression. If China wants a reduced U.S. presence in the region, it must first stop threatening its neighbours.
Jacobsen: So, Senator Rubio says the U.S. and Russia have exchanged new ideas for Ukraine peace talks. I will not include a parenthetical laugh, but according to him—and, of course, he is not the Secretary of State—there are discussions about new proposals being exchanged.
Tsukerman: The next time Lavrov expresses a genuinely new idea, it will be the first. So far, he has done nothing but repeat the same mendacious talking points crafted by the Kremlin. I do not know what exactly could be proposed that Ukraine would find acceptable, unless we are talking about the beginning of a Russian withdrawal from occupied territories or a firm commitment to stop targeting civilians.
Without that, I do not see why any of these so-called new ideas would matter to anyone. We will have to wait and see what is presented. Still, I suspect the announcement may be reframed before it is formally articulated—perhaps to make it more palatable to Western audiences. It is also entirely possible that Russia is attempting to preempt further U.S. assistance to Ukraine, including even defensive aid.
According to President Zelensky, that aid has only recently resumed. The whole situation is scandalous because the assistance being discussed is defensive—it is not meant to help Ukraine launch major offensives but rather to protect civilians from ongoing, illegal, and immoral Russian attacks, which have been escalating.
So, the decision to allow Poland’s older Patriot missiles to be transferred to Ukraine is not some grand humanitarian gesture. It is the bare minimum the administration should have done continuously from the beginning. Punishing civilians because of political disagreements between the White House and President Zelensky is reprehensible. It only empowers Russia to maintain a perception of strength, despite its military weakness, which is precisely why it continues to target civilian populations.
Jacobsen: RFK Jr. is promoting a company under the slogan “We Make America Work Healthy.” That is his sincere conviction, though the evidence behind that claim appears to be severely lacking and misleading. Unfortunately, this promotion will cause more harm than good. The company in question produces ultra-processed meals. What are your thoughts on this situation?
Tsukerman: It seems to me that this is a combination of a potentially sincere conspiratorial mindset—however harmful—and outright hypocrisy on the part of RFK Jr. There is no way he was unaware of what the company was selling. Moreover, this is not the first time he has promoted products—presumably for money—that he would not consume himself or consider healthy.
We can recall the incident involving his endorsement of French fries, despite his public image of eating only extremely healthy foods. However, when a quick profit is available, he appears willing to promote virtually anything, including items that are blatantly unhealthy. This raises a serious question: if RFK Jr. truly cares about Americans’ health, why is he not using his platform to promote genuinely healthy food? Surely, there are companies focused on nutrition and public health that would collaborate with him. Unless his reputation is now so tarnished that only fringe companies are willing to work with him.
Regardless, given his political position and public influence, he should not be promoting any products at all, healthy or otherwise. It is also deeply hypocritical. While he claims to prioritize U.S. health, the measles epidemic in the United States is reaching record highs. He has spent years casting doubt on vaccines—including the measles vaccine—and we are now seeing the consequences. There have already been deaths, and the illness presents serious health risks, particularly for unvaccinated adults.
Even individuals who have been vaccinated, especially those with weakened immune systems or incomplete immunization, can still be at risk. Measles is not a trivial disease. The fact that he has been promoting conspiracy theories against life-saving vaccines is grossly irresponsible.
Jacobsen: Now, for the last topic—not strictly geopolitics, but it has drawn significant international attention. This particular case aligns with a pattern seen in the Jeffrey Epstein case, Larry Nassar, the Catholic clergy abuse scandals, Orthodox community abuse scandals, civic institutional cover-ups, and others.
Sean “Diddy” Combs is currently in custody and awaiting sentencing. He was acquitted of sex trafficking and racketeering charges but was convicted on other related offences. He narrowly avoided a life sentence.
Jacobsen: What are your overall thoughts on the implications of this case, and, separately, any insight into the upcoming release of the TV documentary Price of Oil?
Tsukerman: Here is the issue: it appears the prosecution mishandled how they presented the charges during the trial. As a result, a sex offender and a very dangerous individual may soon be released back into society. While his reputation has indeed suffered from the trial, and many outside the courtroom may be convinced of his guilt regarding the more serious accusations, the fact remains that he was acquitted of some of the most disturbing charges. He may now try to rehabilitate his public image, much like O.J. Simpson did—a horrifying possibility.
Ironically, he was convicted on charges related to prostitution. That raises a more profound moral contradiction. Suppose we are convicting people of prostitution but not of sex trafficking. In that case, we are implying that the sex was consensual and transactional. So why is it a crime? On the other hand, if there are credible accusations of trafficking and exploitation, and women are being victimized, how is it possible that the person facilitating those services is not held accountable for trafficking?
The case, in my view, is riddled with legal inconsistencies and serious ethical concerns. Moreover, unfortunately, these kinds of contradictions are not rare—they create openings for people like Combs, or previously Epstein, to abuse power and manipulate the legal system. Epstein, of course, never faced full justice. He died in custody before sentencing. Combs, meanwhile, will serve time—but not on the most serious allegations. Moreover, that is devastating for survivors who were never fully heard or vindicated. Any final thoughts on this week’s developments?
Tsukerman: As always, it has been a busy week for news. However, U.S. national security is in a precarious position, especially considering that some of those in charge of it do not appear to have sound judgment.
One glaring example is the hiring of serial liar Sergei Gorakhovsky—also known as Sergei Gor—who reportedly concealed his identity for unclear reasons. Despite this, he was placed in a critical role as head of the White House Personnel Office, responsible for staffing decisions. That raises serious concerns about vetting, accountability, and the broader integrity of administrative leadership.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Irina.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/20
Sapira Cahana is a New York-based mental health counsellor (MHC-LP) and interfaith chaplain-in-training specializing in existential and relational therapy. Scott Douglas Jacobsen and Cahana explore the concept of the humdrum as a relational, existential experience shaped by routine, alienation, and time. They reflect on how sacredness and mundanity often switch places through ritual, perception, and the presence of the sacred. Drawing on the work of Alan Watts, Bob Black, and Glenn Gould, they explore the roles of awe, curiosity, and spontaneity in therapy and daily life. Cahana emphasizes that therapy is not about fixing but co-experiencing meaning. The humdrum, they argue, is not meaningless—it is a lens through which we interpret life and, potentially, a path toward renewal and depth.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Welcome back to the caller segment from a few months ago—the one with those existential reflections. Existential exchanges with a psychotherapist. Simple stuff like that. So, when you think of “humdrum,” what comes to mind while you’re driving?
Cahana: Yes, I think of the lull of traffic, the endless cycle of laundry and dishes—without fully engaging with the experience of those moments. Not tuning into the laundry as a potential meditative state. With the humdrum, I tell myself, “I’m going to stay alive. I’ll get through it. I’ll probably even do well.” That’s all we need.
Jacobsen: But regarding the humdrum, I recall a short talk or audio lecture by Alan Watts. He discussed how even something as routine as washing dishes by hand can be transformed into a musical, almost theatrical experience. He described turning the “whoosh” of water and the movement of your hands into something like a dance. That changes the whole dynamic of what is usually a tedious task.
So, in your work—your extensive conversations with people in intimate, professional settings—how do you distinguish between when someone experiences something as humdrum versus when another might find presence or even meaning in the same activity? It’s not inherently humdrum.
Cahana: Even with something like small talk, some people define their personalities around avoiding it. They’ll say, “I hate talking about the weather,” or “Don’t ask me those surface-level questions.” And it’s because they feel a kind of inertia—like the conversation is coated in dust. That dust needs to be brushed away to get to something more meaningful.
And that’s how therapeutic dialogue can work, too. Being a therapist, spiritual guide, or philosopher doesn’t exempt you from the humdrum. Engaging in sacred or meaningful work doesn’t prevent you from feeling the weight of the mundane. And the mundane isn’t absent of the sacred. It’s often about how we relate to repetition, our awareness of time passing, and the way routine can make life feel monochrome—that’s what creates the sense of humdrum.
Jacobsen: Do people ever turn the sacred into the humdrum?
Cahana: Yes. Absolutely. People can turn anything into a humdrum. The humdrum is a relationship between time and effort. It’s about labour—not just occupational work, but emotional and mental exertion—and our awareness of mortality as we engage in tasks that feel meaningless.
Like sitting in a three-hour meeting that’s purely procedural, there’s no real exchange. People are being lectured at, not spoken with. You’re nodding—and it’s true. Like, it’s suffocating—and we feel the suffocation. We feel held hostage, and that’s the humdrum.
It’s the sense of being held hostage by time—not seeing the symphony but just feeling the isolated practice of each instrument. Then the squeaky violin—because you can’t quite get it right. There’s this perfectionism in every moment.
In our world—especially in the psychotherapeutic world, and honestly, in much of modern life—we talk so much about wellness. But we’ve transactionalized experience. We say things like: It’s essential to read books, drink eight glasses of water, get a thousand hours of sleep, and also put in a thousand hours of work.
Even the tasks that are supposed to produce wellness end up producing anxiety. People come to me and say, “I don’t know what’s wrong. I go to the gym. I have the car, the wife, the son. I went to an Ivy League school. Shouldn’t I be impervious to this experience of the humdrum?
Why, then, am I still caught in this rhythm?”
And it’s in feeling your crescendo that the ascent can bring the downfall—right? Back to Sisyphus. There’s an author, Bob Black, an anarchist thinker who is incredibly creative in his critique of work culture. He wrote a provocative manifesto titled The Abolition of Work.
In it, he argues not against all forms of doing but against the ideology of work as drudgery. He advocates for reclaiming time, returning to first principles, and entering into play. Not avoiding interaction, but finding rhythm again—your rhythm, the rhythm of the world—and discovering where the two meet. It’s about entering into play, not building an ethic around toil, but cultivating awe. That’s the antidote to the humdrum.
Jacobsen: It’s almost like a piece or a sense of time’s pace changes as we grow. Does that idea work?
Cahana: The pace of time? Yes, absolutely. But very few people complain about the fractal patterns of flowers or the beauty of a rainbow—the interaction between rain and sunlight that produces it.
We’re not afraid of time when it unfolds across natural surfaces. We marvel at it. But it’s in our own perceived unremarkableness—in the lack of surprise in each moment—especially in this world of instant gratification, where surprise is the rarest commodity, that we feel the abyss of time.
And so we’re lost. We’re alienated from ourselves, from our work, from our sense of being. Our cities become masks. They’re where we congregate, but so much of that congregation happens in windowless cubicles—or slightly larger rectangles. So much of our time is cloaked from us.
And we give it away in exchange for security, for prestige, for the promise that we’ll be invulnerable. But that transaction erodes our sense of wonder. And then we ask ourselves: “Why am I in existential ache? Why do I yearn for another life? Why do I often wish to disappear?”
These are the questions many of my clients bring to me. They look to me as their psychotherapist and say, “Be my guide. You tell me. Tell me the answer. Tell me the eight glasses of water I should drink, and then I’ll be fixed—because it’s hard to endure the pace of time.”
It’s not that we’re afraid of stillness, right? Like I said before. We love it when roots extend to the entire global network. We love it. We love fungi—mycelial networks—they’re essentially large neural structures that mimic aspects of our brain architecture. We seek both rapture and rupture within the humdrum of life—hoping to be saved and also, sometimes, to explode or implode.
Jacobsen: So, what’s the process when someone makes something sacred?
Cahana: I’m going to say something strange: Sacred humdrum is a kind of Babel. It’s another temple. Another shrine. A space that people feel is impervious to corruption. However, we know from history that it’s just another construct.
Just like any kingdom, any chieftaincy—even the British Empire, which once believed it would never fall as long as the sun shone on its colonies. And yet, it fell. There’s hubris in believing that institutions are untouched by time, culture, or the embedded social dynamics that shape them.
That’s the fallacy: to assume the sacred is fixed and permanent. The sacred becomes profane regularly. The profane becomes sacred regularly—through ritual, consecration, devotion, and, yes, through toil.
We contend with the majesty of it all—the blade of grass, the lived moment, the cultural memory, the mystery of being. With all that is, all that was, and all that might yet be. There’s inertia everywhere. But there’s transformation, too.
Jacobsen: I’m getting a sense from you that the distinction between the sacred and the humdrum isn’t about one being meaningful and the other meaningless. It’s more like they’re each their categories of meaning. Is that right? The humdrum has meaning. The sacred has meaning. They can switch places—but they’re different flavours, like choosing a different syrup in your coffee.
Cahana: You’re pulling from different emotional palettes—like placing different orders at Starbucks. The humdrum is its own experiential hermeneutic—a way of interpreting and living through experience. Just as elation, awe, or ecstasy are different experiential lenses. But if you live inside ecstasy for too long, and you start making decisions from that place, we call it mania. That’s the clinical term for it.
Likewise, when the humdrum stretches too long, it can transmute. It can evolve into hopelessness. It can slide into depressive states, into clinical or quasi-clinical conditions—depending on the framework or diagnostic model.
But whatever language we use, the experience points to something real: the ache of time. You cannot explain away the ache of time in three sentences. You cannot resolve it in two therapy sessions. It must be felt. It must be given room.
It’s an inner clarion call—a cry toward meaning. But also a cry toward texture. Not to flatten life into sameness but to return to curiosity—to see the distinctions again. To avoid the numbing effects of patterned repetition.
Because a coffee on day one is not the same as a coffee on day two or day three. Even though we perform the same ritual each morning, the experience is subtly different. People might say, “I just need my coffee in the morning,” but really, it’s a consecrated time—a ritual people love.
So we can move away from monotony. We can offer presence to time. When you spoke about the sacred becoming profane, I thought about desacralization. In therapy, many techniques originate from sacred traditions—such as meditation.
Even something as simple as taking a deep breath. Let’s do some square breathing. And it’s true—it regulates the parasympathetic nervous system, and that’s wonderful. But we don’t live to regulate our parasympathetic nervous system. That’s not where existential questions come from.
It helps to be regulated—to enter the river of life, regulation helps—but breathing alone does not mute the drone of existence. Meditation and contemplation—are sacred technologies. That’s where they come from.
Jacobsen: And you were talking earlier about hermeneutics and lenses. People can play one lens off another. Our first session focused on comedy, and comedy often involves taking a unique perspective on life—drawing something new from that angle. Whether through absurdism or contrast.
I think of George Carlin, who noted that, in every joke, at least one thing has to be wildly out of proportion for it to work—for it to land in the category of a joke.
So, can a therapeutic approach involve integrating a sacred lens onto something humdrum—giving someone a new frame or sense of their experience? Is that how we change a destructive pattern? Or attempt to?
Cahana: That framing of psychotherapy—that we’re aiming to “change” a pattern—is not my style. I’m not looking for outcomes in that way. I’m trying to re-experience something relationally with the client.
That lens—of targeting results—already lends itself to the humdrum. It tends toward a rote or mechanical approach. But my style is spontaneous. It works through interactive power, through the immediacy of presence. So, that in itself shifts the dynamic. It demands presence. It requires a kind of suppleness, a willingness to flow with the other.
Even suppleness, as I’ve said before, can become rote. It can harden into a form—into technique because relational dynamics can be studied. They can be patterned. But the key, especially from an existential approach, is to keep surprise alive. To keep wonder active. To treat the therapeutic space itself as a sacred space.
When a client brings in an exhaustive list of monotonous experiences, my role is to be there with them—in the grass, in the dirt, wherever they find themselves. If their landscape is a concrete jungle, then we’re there. If it’s a jungle in the Amazon, then we’re there too.
Even if I don’t know the experience myself—we build it together. Relational co-creation helps alleviate monotony. It helps the person re-experience what they’ve flattened out. It can awaken the slumber. Possibly. When it goes well.
Jacobsen: We evolve with certain tendencies—patterns of thought, feeling, drives, and motivations. What seems like the psychological underpinning of our tendency to form static reasoning around the humdrum? A lot of our time is spent there—stuck in it.
Cahana: There are two things. First, there’s a kind of evolutionary call—an inner scream that the humdrum can provoke. It’s like a silence before the scream. Second, we must acknowledge the embeddedness of our modern world—a world often organized around alienation: from the self, from the community, from belonging, and from deeper sources of meaning and power.
Because of that, many of our experiences of the humdrum are artificially produced. They’re not just innate responses—they’re shaped by systems and structures that keep us disconnected from one another. That said, humans do have the capacity to experience this humdrum profoundly. It’s universal and as ancient as consciousness itself—if not more so.
But the collision course we’re on—the tension between the modern world’s alienating systems and our internal compass for how we want to use our time, how we want to experience meaning, how we want to live a good life—that’s where the crisis emerges.
There’s a fundamental conflict between the humdrum and the good life. This conflict shows up often in existential thought, existential therapy, and existential experiences of dread and anxiety. It’s a core dialectic.
Jacobsen: Thank you so much for your time today. I hope you have a safe drive home and enjoy all the little moments in between.
Cahana: Nice. Thanks so much. I love our encounters. This is fun—I enjoy it.
Jacobsen: Interviews… I don’t even know what to call them anymore. I’ve done so many for so long. They happen, and then they’re happening again—encounters. Glenn Gould was interviewed once by someone who wasn’t exactly reading the room. And Gould, at one point, responded kind of dryly—it was a joke—but also serious. The interviewer was trying to define what this whole thing was. Gould said, “If you want it in one word—yes, it’s a happening” – referencing concerts. So, in one word: Encounter as exchanges.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/19
I have witnessed more than one male bewildered,
caught off guard,
as to the reason for the woman who walked away.
There are a number of reasons for this, fella.
Some introspective questions:
Was there a lack of commitment from you?
Diminished investment of emotions, effort, or time.
Was there infidelity or betrayal?
Emotional or sexual.
Was there a consistent conflict or a breakdown of communication?
Arguing, unresolved disputes, stonewalling.
Was there incongruity?
In goals, values, even presence of unrealistic expectations.
Were there external stressors or life-altering events?
Something beyond capacity for weathering of the glue.
Is there unacknowledged substance use to the point of misuse?
The substance is master, not you, of you.
Was there abuse or coercive control?
Safety and autonomy matter to cats and women alike.
Were you neglectful of sex?
The use of sex as a standalone, a stand-in, too.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): СокальINFO
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/16
Sir Lawrence Freedman is Emeritus Professor of War Studies at King’s College London and one of Britain’s most influential military strategists. Freedman, the author of landmark works including Ukraine and the Art of Strategy and Command: The Politics of Military Operations from Korea to Ukraine, has long shaped debates over deterrence, escalation, and statecraft. His peer-reviewed essay “The Russo-Ukrainian War and the Durability of Deterrence” examines nuclear signaling and credibility in the current conflict. He also co-writes Comment Is Freed over on Substack, offering precise, timely analysis that bridges scholarship and public understanding.
Freedman’s influence extends beyond academia. A veteran of the UK’s Iraq Inquiry, he remains a leading voice on civil-military relations, modern warfare, and the limits of coercive power. Since Russia’s 2022 full-scale invasion of Ukraine, his analyses have been widely cited for their clarity and restraint.
In this interview with Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Freedman discusses Russia’s evolving nuclear doctrine, arguing that its threats remain tethered to existential scenarios rather than battlefield desperation. He traces how figures such as Dmitry Medvedev use rhetorical bluster without translating it into atomic policy. Freedman also reflects on Kyiv’s civil-military tensions and leadership shifts—most notably, the replacement of Valerii Zaluzhnyi by Oleksandr Syrskyi and Zaluzhnyi’s later appointment as ambassador to the UK. On the battlefield, he notes how inexpensive drones have expanded kill zones and made fronts transparent, pushing Russia toward small-group infiltration while Ukraine defends thinly stretched lines.
Freedman cautions against speculative “what ifs,” distinguishing the difference between winning and merely not losing. Russia’s political objectives, he says, remain unmet. For Ukraine, escalation risks can be managed—so long as deep-strike operations minimize civilian harm and avoid attacks on leadership targets.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Thank you very much for joining me today. Since The Durability of Deterrence, what has changed most in Russian nuclear signaling?
Lawrence Freedman: Not a lot has changed. The problem they have is that there’s a clear doctrine—not significantly different from that of other nuclear-armed states—which holds that nuclear weapons are to deter existential threats to Russia. They’re not for use in lesser cases, and, generally speaking, you really don’t want a nuclear war if you can avoid it. They feel, however, that they ought to be getting more value out of their nuclear arsenal.
While Putin has been quite careful in his nuclear threats, others, like Dmitry Medvedev, the former president and now deputy chair of Russia’s Security Council, have been unable to resist opportunities to sound as menacing as possible with every development they dislike. Medvedev talks about Armageddon coming, and Russian state media often goes even further. In practice, when the developments they warned against actually occur—such as Finland and Sweden joining NATO, Western countries sending long-range weapons to Ukraine, or Ukraine striking targets inside Russia—nothing much happens.
They may respond – but not in the nuclear sphere. They’ve therefore created a problem for themselves. When he has been explicit about nuclear contingencies, Putin has reserved his threats for one clear contingency, of NATO actually fighting alongside Ukraine. But they’ve used threats implicitly for a range of other contingencies—all of which have since come to pass, and none of which have warranted nuclear use.
You can see, in several Russian commentators—Sergey Karaganov being the most notable—a lament that in this way, the deterrent impact of Russia’s nuclear arsenal has been eroded. That has led to arguments that perhaps they should lower the threshold for use to make it more credible. Putin has explicitly rejected that argument, but it remains present in Russian debates.
Jacobsen: What civil-military frictions have been shaping Moscow and Kyiv’s operational choices in the current phase of the war?
Freedman: We know more about Ukraine because it has an active press and open discussion. There are the usual wartime tensions—one being the concern that the generals, particularly the commander-in-chief, may become more popular than the president. The president’s staff worries about this and tries to keep the generals in their place. More seriously, there are political imperatives that may seem compelling to President Zelensky—for example, the belief that every piece of territory must be defended—that don’t always make military sense to the generals.
There are various tensions, not only between civilians and the military but within the military itself, over strategic priorities. These were particularly evident in the 2022–2023 period. That phase ended with the commander-in-chief, General Valerii Zaluzhnyi, being removed from his position in early 2024 and later appointed as Ukraine’s ambassador to the United Kingdom. He was replaced by General Oleksandr Syrskyi, who had already been running much of the land war. So yes, there are tensions—but they are not surprising.
There has been a certain amount of sacking of inadequate commanders, but that has been primarily done at the senior military level rather than by Zelensky. Zelensky, on the whole, has done what he should be doing—concentrating on external support, maintaining international backing, and keeping the population’s morale up. However, there are significant issues, with mobilization being the most obvious, that have caused and continue to cause tensions. Insufficient manpower at the front is a real problem. The idea of conscripting 18–25-year-olds is still seen as politically toxic. So, these are significant issues that won’t go away; they’ll keep coming back.
On the Russian side, it’s different. First, Putin hasn’t changed his Chief of the General Staff, General Valery Gerasimov, who’s been in post since around 2012. He’s still there, though he doesn’t appear to be particularly good at his job. He did, however, change the Minister of Defense. Sergei Shoigu has been in office since 2012. The new minister, Andrei Belousov, appears to be more efficient and effective, and has somewhat modernized the Russian operation.
But the military itself, under Gerasimov’s command, has been notable for the lack of originality in its tactics. They’ve stuck with the same formula. Where you’ve seen real innovation on the Russian side has been in the development and use of drones, where they have been quite effective. The big issue came in the summer of 2023 with Yevgeny Prigozhin. Private military contractors were developing their own armies—in this case, the Wagner Group under Prigozhin. Wagner fell out with the Ministry of Defense because they felt they weren’t getting enough ammunition and support.
These disputes were very public throughout the first half of 2023 and led the Defense Ministry to attempt to bring Wagner under its control, threatening Prigozhin’s entire business model. He rebelled. I don’t think he reasonably intended to mutiny as much as he did, but it went further than he expected. He ended up marching toward Moscow after clashing to some degree with loyalist Russian forces. He was persuaded not to pursue it to the end and convinced himself that if he went to Belarus, he could be rehabilitated.
Of course, he wasn’t—he was killed in a plane explosion a few months after the mutiny. That was a symptom of something more. Some generals were clearly sympathetic to Prigozhin, several of whom were dismissed after the mutiny. It was a clear sign of internal tensions in the system, which probably still exist. But you don’t see much of it now surfacing.
There has been consistency in Russian strategy. They continue to press ahead on all fronts. They keep pushing. There’s not much evidence of alternative strategic thinking. From the beginning, Russia could have concentrated its forces and made a significant push before consolidating. Instead, it has maintained a broad front line throughout.
(Ukraine Ministry of Defence)
Jacobsen: As far as I know, the front line is probably over a thousand kilometres.
Freedman: Yes, it is—more than 1,200 kilometres. It’s incredibly long. You can see that both sides are currently stretched, and they’re starting to have to move troops from one sector to another. The fighting is most intense in Donetsk. That’s Putin’s biggest priority. He’s more or less secured Luhansk, and the occupation of Donetsk would complete the control of the Donbas. He’s put enormous effort into that, though it hasn’t gone as far as he hoped in terms of occupying it.
Jacobsen: What is a “wartime mentality”? What would adaptation to this mean for procurement and for governance reforms?
Freedman: What you see in Ukraine, which has been impressive and is happening in Russia too (one shouldn’t underestimate the Russians), is the speed of innovation. Ukraine had an army and some weapons, but it was heavily dependent on external sources for additional military equipment and ammunition. That continued well into last year. For key systems such as Patriot, HIMARS, and Storm Shadow, Ukraine still relies on its supporters to deliver. But on drones, it’s producing its own and will soon be exporting them.
There’s even talk of a joint venture with the United States. It’s been an extraordinary period of innovation, born of necessity. The response has been impressive. Decisions are made in weeks, rather than the months or years required by Western procurement agencies. They don’t go through endless rounds of testing. If they think something will work, they try it. The Ukrainians keep their designs simple and concentrate much of the innovation in the software. They use AI quite effectively. Without this adaptability, Ukraine would face significant challenges due to the limited Western supply capacity. The slow pace at which Europe ramped up ammunition production—especially artillery shells—shows the stark difference between being at war and being at peace.
Jacobsen: What about the use of drones for reconnaissance, strikes, and defense? Has this surpassed the expectations of many analysts in terms of efficacy?
Freedman: What’s happened is that the war began with drones being used, but they were larger, more capable, and expensive—used mainly for reconnaissance and strike missions. The key change wasn’t that individual drones became vastly more effective, though what you can now pack into a small drone is impressive; instead, it was that they provided mass. That’s the crucial point—it’s a way of achieving mass, and there’s no other affordable way to do it. Air power and artillery remain more efficient, but they can’t be produced or deployed in such volume.
Surveillance has become critical. The battlefield has become transparent; it hasn’t completely dispelled the fog of war, but there’s far less of it than before. This has had a remarkable effect on frontline tactics. You now have a 10–20 kilometre kill zone, where anything lingering too long is likely to be detected and destroyed. Russian tactics have shifted from assaults with armour and large infantry numbers to infiltration by small groups. Ukraine is defending with fragile lines, as massed positions would quickly become highly vulnerable.
A lot of the time, Ukrainian forces don’t even try to engage directly with the enemy—they report that an enemy is coming. That partly reflects their own manpower shortages, but it’s also a consequence of the nature of this battlefield, a battle arena saturated with drones. The innovation continues, becoming ever more cat-and-mouse. The speed of innovation in both drone defense and counter-defense has been extraordinary, with new models constantly emerging.
And it’s not just drones over the front lines; it’s also those attacking deep into the rear. Russia now regularly mounts attacks with hundreds of drones. Most are shot down, but enough get through to cause damage. Ukraine, in turn, has mounted a very effective campaign using drones against Russian oil facilities—something nobody would have imagined three or four years ago. The situation has evolved extremely quickly.
The central issue now is anti-drone drones. Air defense has become a pressing concern for both sides, particularly for Ukraine. Various systems are being tested that are expected to be cheaper than using sophisticated air defense missiles.
Drones themselves aren’t hard to shoot down—they’re slow—but there are so many of them. That’s where the mass effect comes in. It’s not that individual drones are especially effective; it’s that there are countless ones in the air. Even if 80% are intercepted, the remaining 20% can still inflict significant damage.
(Ukraine Ministry of Defence)
Jacobsen: Where do Western media and analysts still get wrong about the war?
Freedman: It’s an inherent challenge. I’m sitting in London, trying to follow the war in Ukraine. There’s plenty of information available, but it’s fragmented, and it’s often unclear whom to trust. You see endless videos showing one side destroying the other, but they never give you the whole picture. It is not easy. And I should say, I’m not immune to these problems—we all suffer from them. One major issue is overthinking and getting too far ahead. People keep asking “what if?” questions. “What if the Russians take Odesa?”—which I saw posed in a newspaper column months ago.
There’s no way Russia could take Odesa right now, so it’s a pointless question. Similarly, back in 2022, we had “What if the Ukrainians retake Crimea—will Russia use nuclear weapons?” They weren’t close to retaking Crimea at the time, so it was an abstract worry. It’s not that such things are impossible, but context matters—you don’t know what else might be happening at the same time. Forward-looking analysis often becomes too speculative. The reality on the battlefield since late 2022 has been that neither side has made significant progress.
Apart from a brief period in mid-2023, following Ukraine’s successful counteroffensives in 2022, Russia has been on a constant offensive. They’ve been pushing continuously. They’ve gained some territory—Avdiivka fell, Bakhmut fell—but other places, like Krokhmalne and Chasiv Yar, haven’t. Chasiv Yar, for instance, was reported to have been lost, but it turns out it hasn’t, at least not yet.
People keep speculating about “what ifs,” assuming momentum. As Russia continues to advance, some think Ukraine will inevitably falter and collapse—but it hasn’t. Then you get the opposite problem: because Ukraine has done better and proved more resilient than expected, people assume it will always continue to do so. You can’t be sure of that either, because Ukraine is stretched, and Russia is pushing very hard right now. It’s challenging to follow a war like this without falling into either optimism or pessimism bias. That’s why I’m careful about predictions. I got it wrong early o,n and I’ve learned from that. It’s better to discuss possibilities and issues than to predict outcomes.
Another thing, and this isn’t a complaint, but an observation: people often conflate who’s inflicting more damage with who’s winning. Just because Russia is advancing doesn’t mean it’s winning. None of Russia’s political objectives has been achieved. It’s taken more territory—roughly doubling what it held in February 2022—but it hasn’t “demilitarized” Ukraine. In fact, Ukraine is now the most militarized state in Europe. For those who claim the war is about NATO expansion, it is noteworthy that NATO has expanded with Sweden and Finland. For those who say it’s about Ukraine’s sovereignty and independence, Ukraine still has both. So none of Russia’s stated political goals have been met. When people say Russia is “winning,” what does that really mean? It certainly hasn’t won.
There’s a crucial distinction between winning and not losing. For Putin, that distinction is everything. I think he believes he can win—his recent remarks at the Valdai Discussion Club suggest as much—because he considers Ukraine to be close to collapse. I don’t find that credible, but that’s clearly his belief. His panic in late September 2022, when he feared he might lose, led to the mobilization of more troops, the conversion of Russia into a war economy, and the expansion of his war aims by annexing four oblasts—none of which he fully controls.
Not losing became an objective in itself, an addition to whatever goals the war began with. Having staked so much on this “special military operation,” failure would be a political catastrophe. Avoiding that outcome has become a goal of its own. That’s one reason I’ve been pessimistic about any peace deal since then. Putin needs something tangible to show for this war. Right now, he has only devastated territory—and little else.
Jacobsen: How should NATO navigate the balance between enabling deep strikes and managing escalation, given the steady stream of red-line rhetoric coming from Moscow?
Freedman: Ukraine is already conducting deep strikes. If Ukraine began launching Western-supplied missiles into the centre of Moscow—say, striking the Kremlin—then, yes, people would be understandably anxious. I’m not sure how Russia would respond, but that’s not something anyone would want to test. They don’t like Ukraine’s current campaign against the oil industry, but there’s not much they can do about it. It’s worth remembering that the Biden administration was initially nervous about attacks on Russian oil refineries, partly due to concerns over global oil prices as much as escalation. The Trump administration, according to the Financial Times, appears more supportive and has reportedly provided intelligence to facilitate such strikes.
If Ukraine continues with a methodical campaign that avoids large-scale civilian casualties or direct attacks on Russia’s political leadership, I don’t see a significant escalation risk. Russia has already escalated plenty. The strikes it’s currently mounting are aimed at destroying Ukraine’s electricity grid—and now its gas infrastructure as well. Many civilians have been killed, cities have been reduced to rubble, and occupied territories have effectively been annexed into Russia. There’s been no shortage of escalation from Moscow, but they’ve avoided using force directly against the West. Even then, they haven’t been passive—there’s been energy coercion, drones drifting into Poland and elsewhere, sabotage operations, and cyberattacks.
Russia hasn’t taken steps that would trigger a direct war with NATO, because it does not want one. From Ukraine’s perspective, the key is to use its capabilities for strategic effect—which it is doing now. Other kinds of campaigns would likely be less effective. Ukraine is essentially running this campaign with Western intelligence support, but it’s fundamentally Ukrainian-led. And there’s no reason why this approach should lead to escalation.
Jacobsen: Sir, thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate both your expertise and the opportunity to speak with and meet you.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/18
Sapira Cahana is a New York-based mental health counsellor (MHC-LP) and interfaith chaplain-in-training specializing in existential and relational therapy. In a wide-ranging dialogue, Scott Douglas Jacobsen and Sapira Cahana explore the nature of humour as both a physiological response and a vehicle for existential insight. Drawing from Jewish tradition, existentialist thought, and cultural history, they examine how humour reflects marginality, trauma, resilience, and spiritual truth. Cahana highlights the roots of laughter in scripture, such as Sarah naming Isaac, and reflects on misinterpretations, including Michelangelo’s depiction of Moses. Jewish humour is shown as a tool for coping, observing, and subverting, with figures like Seinfeld and Moshe Kasher embodying these traditions. Humour, ultimately, becomes a profound lens for navigating suffering, absurdity, and meaning.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, humour means many things. At its core, humour is an involuntary physiological reaction—a laugh, a chuckle, whatever you want to call it.
Sapira Cahana: It feels good. It’s rewarding to laugh. A comedian friend of mine—he used to work with Jimmy Kimmel for about twelve years—is now in his mid-sixties. His daughter recently got married in London. So, he’s entering the next phase of his life. He’s able to reflect on writing tens of thousands of jokes for Jimmy Kimmel Live! and earlier, for The Man Show, where Kimmel co-hosted with Adam Carolla. Humour has been a deep part of his professional identity. From his expert perspective, he argues that laughter—or humour—is a form of “information on the cheap.” In other words, it delivers insight or surprise quickly and accessibly.
Jacobsen: Is there a psychological equivalent to this from an existentialist point of view?
Cahana: Much of humour is about achieving catharsis—whatever form that catharsis takes. Identifying that catharsis is where existential thought enters. Each existentialist—whether Søren Kierkegaard, Albert Camus, or Samuel Beckett—approaches this differently. And each position holds its philosophical legitimacy. For Kierkegaard, for instance, laughter may be tied to spiritual awakening—part of the leap of faith. Laughter, then, is not trivial. It opens a path to the spiritual realm. That’s compelling because it does not seem like “information on the cheap.” It feels more like “information on the lofty.” Humour is often connected to the absurd—the absurdity of life itself. The joke is simply that we are alive in this confusing, sometimes senseless, world.
Jacobsen: Now, what about humour in the Jewish tradition? People who have experienced trauma often develop humour as a coping mechanism—if they’re fortunate enough to find that outlet. Are there traditional Jewish perspectives, whether Orthodox, Conservative or otherwise, that recognize humour as a way of reconciling belief with the realities of the world?
Cahana: Well, Judaism doesn’t divide neatly along denominational lines when it comes to humour. As we’ve noted before, it’s more regional or cultural than theological. Diaspora experiences profoundly shape Jewish humour. Globally, Jews have often lived as peripheral or marginalized figures. However, this marginality has frequently served as a vantage point—a lens through which to examine broader societies. Jews often exist both inside and outside of dominant cultures, and that dual position fosters contrast, irony, and humour. For example, some of the most well-known Jewish humour revolves around the contrast between Jewish and Christian holidays—Christmas and Hanukkah, in particular. These jokes often reflect broader themes of assimilation, minority experience, and religious difference, especially in North America and Europe.
This phenomenon is not exclusive to the West. In India, for example, the Bene Israel and Baghdadi Jewish communities were active participants in the arts. Some of the earliest and most famous female Bollywood actresses, such as Sulochana (born Ruby Myers) and Pramila (born Esther Victoria Abraham), were Indian Jews. Because they were not bound by Hindu caste restrictions or certain gender norms, they had more social mobility and freedom in early Indian cinema. These women broke gender barriers and were among the first to gain widespread recognition as film stars.
One of them was named Sulochana. Then, that opened the floodgates for different kinds of play. So, the Jewish positioning—the “wandering Jew,” so to speak—the Jewish role in society often demands play, is part of play, and maybe even is a strategy. It’s hard to pin down whether it’s a result of that position or whether that position emerged because of play. It’s a chicken-or-egg situation. What’s the origin point?
Jacobsen: What about the place of contemporary comedians? Your Phyllis Diller, your Jerry Seinfeld, your Larry Davids—how do they fit into this?
Cahana: Those are more established names from the past, but there are up-and-coming comedians as well who speak to a similar trend—commentary on the banal aspects of life, but slightly tilted. And that’s where the humour is. It’s that slight exaggeration. The point of origin, arguably, is Kafka. Right? Maybe not the first, but it is indeed formative. The dark comedy, the absurd, the angst of being alive, the daily humdrum—that’s what we’re going to talk about later.
You can frame it as a wretched form of life weighed down by meaninglessness. Or you can take an outsider’s lens—which is a strength of the Jewish perspective—and see how hilarious, how absurd, what horror, what humour! Seinfeld, Larry David, Sarah Silverman—so many Jewish comedians feel that humour is part of our tradition. To sit around, talk, and laugh. Yes. These are almost philosophical commentaries, too.
And I’m building on your point about marginality. That aspect of being socially or culturally on the margins becomes a natural breeding ground for observation and commentary. There’s your seed point. From that space, you can either bring out the positive from the vast neutral field of life—or you can lean into the pain.
So much of Jewish humour is gallows humour or dry and deadpan. It balances levity and gravity—treating heavy things lightly and light things with intense seriousness. That’s the genius of Seinfeld or Larry David: the heroism and the harrowing aspects of daily absurdity. You’re frustrated at the ice cream line, Larry David—not at systemic injustice or existential dread. The world induces anxiety, yes, but the comedy focuses on the immediate, the now, and the mundane.
Jacobsen: That’s what you were saying earlier. It’s not about the grand challenge of life. It’s not about the weight of success or injustice—it’s about the now. What about scripture? In the pastures of the Bible or the Torah, are there examples—not necessarily framed as jokes—but that could be seen as existentially humorous?
Cahana: Yes. This is a classic—and it’s how many modern New York or Northeastern Jews develop their sensibility and sense of identity. In the Hebrew Bible, in the Torah, and the Tanakh, Moses leads the Israelites into the desert. And the Israelites are so ungrateful—they say, “Bring us back to Egypt!”
The way many contemporary Jews read that is, “See? We’ve always been like this.” It’s a funny kind of lineage—a genealogical connection to our ancestors that feels very personal. It humanizes them in a way that other wisdom traditions—or even other parts of the Hebrew Bible—don’t always do.
It’s a collective story, which reflects how Jewish culture is structured—pretty collectivist. The Israelites complain, “Take us back to Egypt. We had such good food—melons, leeks, cucumbers.” It’s all listed. They’re nostalgic for zucchinis and melons. The food! Oh, it was so amazing—never mind that it was under Pharaoh, under enslavement.
Jacobsen: That irony is so rich. People come alive at that moment, narratively. And haven’t people done geographic studies of the trip—from where they were to where they were trying to go? It’s a very short journey, geographically. They were wandering for forty years, but the distance wasn’t far.
Cahana: Mount Sinai is widely believed to be near the southern part of the Sinai Peninsula. Saint Catherine’s Monastery, for instance, is right there. If that’s where Mount Sinai was, then yes—it’s not far. But that’s another whole discussion.
The Garden of Eden, too—that story could be read as tragic, about the loss of innocence and exile from paradise. Andthere are plenty of interpretations that go that route. However, the Garden of Eden is also a source of tremendous humour in Jewish storytelling.
What was the Garden of Eden? What happened with Adam and Eve? It’s so full of symbolic play. And knowing Hebrew makes it even more fun—because translation itself becomes funny. In the Hebrew Bible, Adam isn’t a name; it means “earthling.” And Eve, Chava, means “mother of all living” or “life-giver.” It’s entirely metaphorical in Hebrew.
However, mistranslations have led to numerous cultural developments. Hebrew-speaking Jews are very aware of this. Like, “Yes, I know that’s how it’s interpreted in English, but in the original Hebrew, it might mean something completely different.”
That’s why Michelangelo’s sculpture of Moses with horns is so absurd. It comes from a mistranslation. The Hebrew word Keren can mean “horn,” but it also means “ray” or “radiance.” The verse described Moses’s face as emitting rays of light, not sprouting horns. But Jerome’s Latin Vulgate translated it as “horns,” and that’s how it ended up in art history. And youtook it as “horns.” Then there’s this whole stereotype—”Jews have horns.” So we turn that on its head. We already know it’s absurd, so we joke about it. There’s humour in that inversion.
But the misinterpretation itself—its absurdity—and the act of holding your truth despite that—that’s a core source of Jewish humour. And that connects back to the Hebrew language and translations of Torah. The Abrahamic faiths are all grounded in Judaism. Roughly half the world’s population today identifies as Christian or Muslim—or more than half if you include global religious demographics. So, Judaism could be seen as the parent tradition of much of the spiritual world.
Jacobsen: How often do you notice other asynchronies—misalignments—between how people interpret things today, even at the level of seminary or theological study, compared to the historical evolution of those same ideas within Judaism?
Cahana: It’s not really for me to judge. I’m not in a position to dismiss half the world’s population and say, “They don’tget it.” That wouldn’t be right. I can only speak to my tradition. I hold that tradition as sacred. I come from a lineage grounded in ancestry—that’s my foundational way of being.
And when people choose to become Jewish, they’re joining that ancestral lineage. They’re opting into a worldview that places all of us at Sinai, spiritually speaking. That creates space for imagination because religious cultures and wisdom traditions are all about approaching truth—however elusive. Humour, to return to an earlier point, is one of those imaginative tools. It adds suppleness to the human experience. You shift the kaleidoscope by one dial, and suddenly, the entire picture changes. Humour lets us combine disparate ideas in surprising ways—and that’s what generates new, rich meaning.
Judaism, with its rich history, is also a tradition of profound interpretation. Sometimes, it’s not clear—was this written in the Torah? Or is this an interpretation from eleventh-century France? Or another context entirely? How does that interpretation map to today?
And who was the ancestor offering that interpretation? There are hundreds of thousands of commentaries. Each framing is slightly different. My religious education has helped keep my mind flexible—able to take various vantage points—and that’s precisely the space where humour lives.
Jacobsen: What about Job? In the Christian tradition and the Muslim tradition—there’s Job. And in Hindu culture, there are parallel figures. But back to the Hebrew Bible: what about the story of Job?
Cahana: Job is the comedy of all comedies. It’s a sad story—but it’s a tragicomedy. It’s bargaining with God—bargaining with the distance between the divine and the lowly person going through immense suffering. In Jewish culture, Job is referenced, yes, but it is not a central text in the same way it is in Christianity. It’s not studied as extensively. In Christian theology, Job often becomes a foreshadowing or prefiguration of Jesus, which makes sense within that interpretive framework.
One of my favourite thinkers to invoke about Job is Hélène Cixous, a French feminist philosopher. She talks about comedy as an act of rebellion. And while Job does not laugh, there’s something so deeply absurd about his continuous misfortune that you can imagine laughter emerging—not necessarily in the text, but potentially within him, as a radical, disruptive form of acceptance.
His acceptance of suffering—”I believe in you”—might be read in another light as containing an inner, subversive laugh. I see people in hospice care laugh all the time. I regularly laugh with people in those spaces. That bubbling, almost hysterical laugh—it’s a transcendental moment, a kind of submission or transformation.
Jacobsen: Who do you think is central, in Judaism, when it comes to humour? Can any figures from Torah be read that way—where you find something like oatmeal for comedy? Something nourishing. Something that sustains. Who would be a “sustaining comedian”—a figure you can return to and frame comedically?
Cahana: Well, Job is not central in Judaism, but as you said, he plays a symmetrical or typological role in Christianity about Jesus. In the Torah, though, one of the first stories of Jewish history—our ancestral stories—begins with Abraham and Sarah.
Sarah is old, she’s never had children, and she’s struggled with infertility her whole life. Then an angel tells her she’sgoing to be pregnant—and she laughs. That’s the moment. That’s the nuance. She laughs, and then she names her child Isaac—Yitzhak—which means “he will laugh.”
Jacobsen: Oh. That’s something I wouldn’t have thought of.
Cahana: Yes. Laughter is embedded in the name. Isaac is laughing. That lineage starts with a laugh. And that moment contains layers—it’s joyous, it’s absurd, it’s miraculous. And Sarah’s experience with infertility is deeply human and profoundly resonant. She had even told Abraham to take another wife—Hagar—and Hagar bore Ishmael. The name Ishmael means “God has heard.” The prayer was heard. But when Sarah finally has a child of her own—despite her age—it’s laughter. That’s the emotion.
It’s laughter born out of joy, absurdity, and disbelief. And then—later in the story—when Abraham is told to sacrifice Isaac, that moment becomes the emotional peak. Sarah dies soon after. That loss can be read as a kind of gallows humour—the tragedy within a life filled with paradoxes. There’s betrayal, lightness, and darkness interwoven. It’s all there.
Jacobsen: You mentioned “grains of truth” earlier—how faith traditions or wisdom traditions contain those. Yourknowledge and training are now rooted in Judaism and Hebrew philosophy. So, to find a grain of truth in a story is to find a point where myth and reality touch.
You also mentioned women facing fertility struggles. Therapists, of course, talk to people about deeply sensitive subjects—things of emotional weight. And earlier, we were discussing how that weight can be turned around, sometimes, so that humour emerges from it.
So the laughter—Isaac—that comes from the absurdity and joy of an older woman finally having a child after a long struggle… does the inverse of that, the seriousness of it, show up in therapeutic settings? Is that reflective of the reality you see, especially with women coming to you and struggling with fertility?
Cahana: Yes. People approach these experiences in so many different ways. There’s no single, objective emotional reaction. Some things are so immersive that they’re traumatic—hard to move through or move past.
But we all react differently. We do. And that multiplicity of truth is what produces humour. It’s the cacophony of voices—one person holds a particular kind of gravity, and another has a different one. That dissonance, that variation, is maybe subversive in its way. Each person is subverting different access points of truth.
And that’s very much aligned with Jewish wisdom. In Kabbalistic thought, the world itself is in shards—broken vessels. There’s fragmentation. I read a beautiful piece on this week’s parsha—the Torah portion. It was a kind of class analysis written by someone named Ilya—I’ll have to find the last name for you later.
The piece reflected on the broken tablets from Sinai. And the author imagined: what if the wealthy people received commandments like “don’t commit adultery,” “don’t steal,” while the poor people got “no,” “no,” “no,” “no,” “no.” It was a striking metaphor—a way to explore how class dynamics shape even the moral and legal frameworks within which we live.
That’s something we’ve spoken about before, right? It provides a unique vantage point on the world. And that’s what existentialism is—this ontological view, the fundamental question of being. But there’s also phenomenology—the lived experience, the intersubjective reality. The fusion of those two—that’s where existentialism lives. And it’s where satire, absurdity, tragicomedy, and irony all arise.
That’s the production of the existential stance. And it’s almost always accompanied by a sense of humour. There’s a point where the absurd is impossible to disentangle from the existential. Laughter becomes central—because it’s extraordinary when you’re able to reach that macroscopic perspective. When you can take a step back, examine your situation, and view it from a completely different angle.
Jacobsen: What stands out most to you in Jewish philosophy—or Torah or scripture—that is strangely tragic and, therefore, humorous?
Cahana: I mean, is Spinoza being excommunicated? Kidding.
Jacobsen: Well, he has half my sympathy—as a half-Dutch person.
Cahana: It may be, yes, that some of our great thinkers were unaccepted and then reaccepted into the community. Maimonides, for instance—he’s a huge thinker. We love his 13 Principles of Faith. However, he also has books that are banned in rigorous religious communities.
Cahana: And when Judaism gets translated into the broader culture—well, we get things like Madonna doing Kabbalah yoga. We love that.
Jacobsen: That’s hilarious.
Cahana: Kabbalah is meant to be this esoteric, deeply mystical discipline—a closed-off, tapped-in community where only a select few are traditionally allowed to study it. And then Madonna is… doing Hebrew letters in yoga class or something. I don’t even know exactly what she was doing, but that’s what I gathered. There’s a kind of play that becomes ubiquitous in these moments.
Jacobsen: And maybe excommunication, too. What’s the Jewish word for that again?
Cahana: Herem.
Jacobsen: Right, herem. I told you—I had a friend who was OTD, “off the derech.” She’s been OTD for several years now.
Cahana: And it’s a real thing. But it also depends—it’s not always the same. Sometimes, people self-select out. Sometimes, the community pushes them out. Sometimes it’s the family. It’s different for everyone. That’s not funny, however. There’s nothing funny about that. That’s terrible.
But I will say, a lot of OTD folks do become comedians—and they often have a lot to say. Take Moshe Kasher, for example. He’s a fascinating comedian. He grew up on the margins of several subcultures. He wrote a book—I think it was called Subculture Vulture or something like that.
Jacobsen: Sounds good.
Cahana: He lived in different worlds and came to understand the absurdity in each one. He was able to see the gravity that each subculture takes seriously—and then also recognize the inherent absurdity in that seriousness. That’s fantastic material for a comic. Also—his father was Hasidic. Both of his parents were deaf. So, he has a very unique perspective.
Jacobsen: A good take. He can tell if you’re actually listening or just pretending.
Cahana: Yes! He can tell if you’re listening—or not—for reasons beyond sound.
Jacobsen: I’m going to grab breakfast pretty soon.
Cahana: Green eggs and ham?
Jacobsen: Leftover chicken and asparagus. Close.
Cahana: True.
Jacobsen: You take care.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/18
Urtė Žukauskaitė-Zabukė is the CEO and co-founder of Laimingas Žmogus (Happy Human), the Lithuanian Humanist Organization. She leads the organization’s advocacy, ceremony programs, and democratic development initiatives, promoting equality, transparency, and non-religious life stance values in Lithuania. Gerda Surgautaitė is a co-founder and a board member of Laimingas Žmogus and a multidisciplinary creative who bridges theatre, education, and entrepreneurship. She helped pioneer humanist ceremonies in Lithuania and focuses on youth guidance, critical thinking education, and advancing humanist values. Scott Douglas Jacobsen interviews Urtė Žukauskaitė-Zabukė and Gerda Surgautaitė about founding Laimingas Žmogus, Lithuania’s humanist organization. They discuss the origins of humanist ceremonies, promote equality, address challenges in education and gender roles, and explore their role within the international humanist movement. The conversation explores advocacy, youth engagement, and democratic values.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are your names and titles?
Urte Zukauskaite-Zabuke: I am Urtė Žukauskaitė-Zabukė, CEO and co-founder of Laimingas Žmogus (Happy Human), the Lithuanian Humanist Organization.
Gerda Surgautaitė: I am Gerda Surgautaitė, co-founder and a board member of Laimingas Žmogus.
Jacobsen: When was Laimingas Žmogus founded?
Zukauskaite-Zabuke: Officially in 2020, but its roots go back to 2016.
Jacobsen: What inspired the founding of the organization?
Zukauskaite-Zabuke: Both of us were inspired by my wedding. My husband and I are atheists, and we were looking for something meaningful and personal.
At that time, the concept of humanism and secular life ceremonies was virtually unknown in Lithuania. While researching online, I discovered the existence of humanist ceremonies abroad.
Surgautaitė: Being a professional actress and a close friend, I conducted their wedding ceremony. That event became the very first humanist ceremony in Lithuania.
From that point on, we began offering humanist ceremonies to the public.
Jacobsen: What is your current membership size?
Surgautaitė: We are not yet a formal membership-based organization. However, we currently have around 55 trained celebrants across Lithuania.
Zukauskaite-Zabuke: We consider these celebrants to be part of our internal community. They participate in decision-making processes, including the election of board members.
Although we have not yet opened general public membership, we are building a democratic structure and preparing to welcome broader community participation.
Jacobsen: How would you describe your path of growth? Moreover, what do you consider some of your key achievements during that journey?
Surgautaitė: First of all, I would say one of our most significant achievements has been offering humanist ceremonies to the people of Lithuania, providing a real alternative to religious and state ceremonies.
We have also developed a system for creating these ceremonies, along with a social business model that allows the organization to sustain itself without relying on government funding, purely through the ceremonies themselves. In that way, we are financially independent from external sources. That is a significant achievement.
Zukauskaite-Zabuke: Politically, we also helped popularize the concept of humanism and humanist ceremonies in Lithuania. We are now the second-largest provider of ceremonies, after the Catholic Church.
We account for nearly 4% of all ceremonies performed in Lithuania. We are also the only life-stance organization in the country that offers LGBT+ marriage ceremonies, even though such unions are not legally recognized in Lithuania. Last year, we launched a campaign in support of LGBT+ marriage. Over 20,000 people in Lithuania signed this symbolic humanist wedding certificate of a LGBT+ couple.
The National Museum of Lithuania later accepted that certificate as part of the country’s LGBT+ history. Of course, it is not enough for full recognition of LGBT+ rights, but it was a significant step forward.
Humanist ceremonies serve not only as a sustainable model for our organization but also as a means of education and advocacy. We continue this work with funeral ceremonies, promoting non-religious options and offering a more personalized and free vision for end-of-life practices.
Jacobsen: What would you say are the core principles of Laimingas Žmogus? For example, some organizations list the Amsterdam Declaration 2002 or 2022 on their website and present that as a summary of humanist values.
Zukauskaite-Zabuke: We have spent a great deal of time building an internal culture within the organization, which is something I am very proud of. In our weekly meetings, we revisit our core principles and team values. They are not dogmatic—we revise and reflect on them together each week.
While they are partly based on the Amsterdam Declaration, they also come from our lived experience and what we genuinely believe. One of our key principles is that freedom equals responsibility. If you want freedom, you must also take up responsibility.
Surgautaitė: For me, one of the most important core principles is feedback—feedback is a gift. We actively encourage team members to provide feedback, whether positive or critical, as it helps us grow. Another core principle is transparency: being open about what we do and how much it costs, in every possible way.
Zukauskaite-Zabuke: Transparency is essential, especially when it comes to the Church.
When we were founding the humanist movement, we reflected deeply on how to make it fundamentally different from religion.
We wanted to avoid creating something that could resemble a new cult, which was genuinely a concern for us. Transparency became one of the key principles in preventing that. Of course, democracy within the organization and evolving governance structures are also crucial. These were, and still are, among the most important aspects.
Surgautaitė: We also believe that sometimes questions are more important than answers.
Jacobsen: As a journalist, I agree.
Zukauskaite-Zabuke: Yes, that is one of our guiding principles as well.
Jacobsen: In post-Soviet states more generally, how would you describe gender equality?
How do people define their roles regarding gender, both personally and socially?
Surgautaitė: That is an excellent question. During Soviet times, women were encouraged to work and participate in public life. However, they were still expected to carry what we in Lithuania call “the four corners of the house” (=do everything).
They were professionally active, but at home, they carried full responsibility for the family, taking care of the children and managing the household. In our generation, men are increasingly taking on more responsibilities in family life. They are more involved in raising children, and the situation is improving significantly.
Zukauskaite-Zabuke: The government is also supporting gender equality through legislation. For example, childcare leave is not reserved only for women. In Lithuania, parents can take up to two years of childcare leave, which is a generous policy.
However, at least three months must be taken by the other parent. Sometimes couples split the time equally, but the law ensures that both parents are involved to some extent.
Of course, inequality still exists. Lithuania also has one of the highest suicide rates in Europe, and men make up the majority of those deaths.
So gender inequality affects not only women, but it also impacts men. There used to be immense emotional pressure on men to be providers and protectors, which can be overwhelming, and a lot of men still believe that.
Fortunately, we are seeing some movement towards greater equality.
Surgautaitė: Still, the education system has yet to find effective ways to address this imbalance.
One reason is that nearly all teachers—and most principals—are women. So, for students, it can be not easy to find strong male role models, especially in schools.
This becomes even more problematic in the context of widespread divorce. In Lithuania, many children are raised primarily by single mothers. Moreover, when there are no strong male role models at home or in school, these issues become cyclical. It becomes harder for children to envision models of equal partnership within a family structure.
Zukauskaite-Zabuke: That said, we are pretty fortunate when it comes to reproductive rights. Abortion is legal in Lithuania, and for now, there is no strong political agenda to change that. So that is one area where we have some stability, which is encouraging.
Jacobsen: So you have divorced families, and most teachers and principals are women.
Zukauskaite-Zabuke: Yes, and in those divorced families, it is usually the women who take care of the children. That in itself becomes part of the larger problem.
Jacobsen: In those cases, what happens to the boys? What happens to the girls?
Moreover, where are the men? To wrap that together, what would be the humanist response?
Surgautaitė: What happens to the boys and girls? As I mentioned, it becomes difficult for them to imagine a different way of living—how responsibilities could be shared, how partnerships could be more balanced. So they turn to the internet for answers. Unfortunately, the answers they find—often from popular TikTok influencers—are not good ones.
Jacobsen: Influencers like TradWives and Boss Babes and those kinds of personas?
Surgautaitė: TradWives, online incel’s communities. I work in a high school, and I can see how dangerous this trend is becoming. Young people are seeking guidance online, and many influencers are simply seeking attention. What they promote is rarely aligned with a humanist worldview. Much of it actively contradicts humanist values.
Zukauskaite-Zabuke: As for the humanist response, we promote marriage equality. We emphasize that the role of a celebrant is not just to create a beautiful ritual, but also to engage with the couple beforehand.
Celebrants meet with the couple, ask deep and profound questions, and help them reflect about the true meaning of the ceremony. They are encouraged to act, to some degree, like facilitators or guides—helping the couple reflect and think intentionally about their partnership.
Of course, the main task remains crafting the ceremony itself. However, we train our celebrants to approach it with a focus on humanist values – equality, mutual respect, and individual freedom. We are also currently exploring humanist confirmation courses.
It is important to enter the space of youth education, particularly to reach students who may lack positive role models. These programs could help place them in peer groups where they are exposed to humanist values—not just “good values,” but values rooted in critical thinking, equality, empathy, and reason.
Surgautaitė: Or at least to provide some guidance. We aim to raise topics and questions, especially those that promote critical thinking.
Zukauskaite-Zabuke: Or simply to create a safe space. A space where young people feel accepted and valued. Humanity as a whole is facing numerous existential questions at present, given the global developments unfolding around us.
Jacobsen: And people will either take a bad answer or no answer at all.
So if we do not provide any answers, others will offer harmful ones in our place.
Zukauskaite-Zabuke: It is especially difficult for young people today. Many are finishing school without knowing what profession they want to pursue, or even what their lives will look like six months from now. How can someone realistically make such major life choices in the 10th grade?
It was hard enough for our generation, but it is even more challenging for today’s youth. That is precisely where humanists should step in.
Jacobsen: Within the international humanist community, how do you view post-Soviet Northern European groups that work within the humanist tradition? How do they fit into the broader global movement? You have seen the diversity of concerns, lifestyles, language barriers, and cultural contexts. However, people still unite around a shared cause.
Zukauskaite-Zabuke: That is a great question. Post-Soviet and Northern Europe do not always overlap. For example, Romania and Hungary are post-Soviet, but not part of Northern Europe.
So I would group post-Soviet countries separately in this context.
Yesterday, we were discussing how we entered the humanist movement originally as seekers, looking for resources, guidance, and learning. Thanks to support from Humanists International and a good dose of our perfectionism, we have grown into a stable and well-established organization.
Now, we are in a position to give back—to share our knowledge, resources, and experiences.
We view such exchanges as invaluable, not just for building global solidarity but also in facing the shared threats that humanists encounter worldwide.
Although we are part of NATO, we firmly believe that international cooperation is essential, not only for security but also for fostering global understanding and reinforcing the value of peace.
Jacobsen: Any final thoughts?
Surgautaitė: I would add that the global humanist community is incredibly inspiring. Moreover, although we face such complex challenges in the world—political instability, misinformation, rising authoritarianism, and social polarization —there is strength in knowing we are not alone.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Urte and Gerda.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/17
Jennifer Lockett, Freight Factoring Operations Manager at altLINE, brings 18 years of trucking industry experience and 8 in factoring. She launched altLINE’s freight factoring program in 2024 to help carriers nationwide maintain cash flow. In response to DHL pausing B2C shipments over $800, Lockett explains small carriers may face delayed payments, increased administrative burdens, and tighter margins. She emphasizes the value of freight factoring in bridging long payment cycles, reducing back-office strain, and ensuring financial stability. While evolving U.S. customs policies may reshape the freight factoring landscape, Lockett advises carriers to leverage factoring for operational resilience during regulatory and economic disruptions.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How will DHL’s pause on B2C shipments over $800 affecting small carrier?
Jennifer Lockett: These shipment delays will not only slow down delivery timelines but also impact cash flow for small carriers, as payments may be delayed for 30, 60, or even 90 days.
Jacobsen: What challenges face small businesses when navigating new customs requirements?
Lockett: Back-office personnel at all sorts of freight and logistics companies could also face increased administrative workloads. Additional staffing might even be required to handle these continuously evolving customs processes. Many of these companies don’t have the operating capital to afford to bring on extra help.
Jacobsen: Will this shift in U.S. customs policy influence small carriers’ engagement in international versus domestic shipping?
Lockett: Small carriers specifically operate on such slim margins that they could feel significant ramifications from this pause. They’re used to long payment cycles creating cash flow problems as is, so any sort of delays that this causes will only create more financial stress.
Jacobsen: How could these disruptions affect cash flow stability?
Lockett: Plus, there are already so many responsibilities that come with running a trucking company that they might not have the time to keep track of changes to the customs requirements.
Jacobsen: How will freight factoring clients turn to financial solutions because of increased delays or compliance-related costs?
Lockett: Instead of waiting for extended payment terms, carriers can use freight factoring to ensure they’re funded upon delivery. This really helps them maintain financial stability and positive cash flow. Keep in mind that this industry has notoriously long payment terms–up to 60 or even 90 days–so many carriers wouldn’t be able to operate without the assistance of their factoring company.
Jacobsen: How does increased unpredictability in international shipping affect long-term planning?
Lockett: Factoring companies also reduce the administrative burden for carriers by assuming collection responsibilities for all outstanding invoices. This frees up carriers’ time, allowing them and their team to focus on driving sales rather than invoicing debtors and chasing payments.
Jacobsen: Any advice for freight operators or carriers looking to protect themselves financially?
Lockett: By leveraging factoring, businesses can safeguard their cash flow and streamline operations while navigating these regulatory shifts with confidence.
Jacobsen: Could this development shift the freight factoring landscape?
Lockett: The freight factoring landscape could change as a result of these developments, but it’s too early to predict how that might be.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Jennifer.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/16
Ashley Darling, CEO and cofounder of Neptune, has a deep conversation on identity, platform ethics, and building a radically inclusive tech ecosystem. Neptune, a female-led social media startup based in Phoenix, Arizona, emphasizes community, equity, and autonomy—hiring human moderators instead of relying on AI. With over 20 years of experience in content creation, fashion, and influencer marketing, Darling champions LGBTQ+, BIPOC, and women-led entrepreneurship. The interview explores challenges marginalized creators face, the balance between individualism and community, and the platform’s commitment to digital freedom and nuance in moderation. From Dylan Mulvaney’s public transition to the erosion of pronoun visibility in U.S. policy, Darling speaks candidly about culture, vulnerability, and empowerment. Neptune stands as a disruptor in tech, reshaping how creators connect, express, and thrive in an increasingly politicized digital landscape.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here with Ashley Darling, the CEO and cofounder of Neptune, a female-led social media app built to empower creators by prioritizing human connection over algorithmic control. Neptune positions itself as a platform that hires human moderators and curators instead of relying solely on AI, emphasizing safety, creativity, and community.
With over two decades of experience across content creation, fashion, and influencer marketing, Ashley leads the movement for creator-first innovation and digital freedom. Based in Phoenix, Arizona, she advocates for LGBTQ+, BIPOC, and women-led entrepreneurship in the tech space.
Neptune is reshaping social networking by giving creators visibility, autonomy, and monetization tools. It stands as a disruptor and thought leader in social media startups. Ashley is working to build a digital ecosystem where authenticity thrives and creators are prioritized over metrics. Learn more at http://www.theneptuneapp.com, or follow her on Instagram at @the.ashley.darling.
Thank you for joining me today. As a tech entrepreneur and advocate for creator autonomy, how do you view models of gender parity—such as Iceland’s government-backed equality measures—compared to the challenges marginalized creators face in global digital spaces?
Darling: Wow, that’s such a layered issue. It’s frustrating, mainly based in the U.S., to compare how identity is approached in places like Iceland. There’s more collective respect- a “live and let live” attitude. In contrast, identity can feel adversarial in America, like someone else’s self-expression threatens your own.
That’s a deeply ingrained part of American individualism. It creates tension even within marginalized communities. I want to be careful not to speak for the Black community or other communities of colour, especially because I’m white-presenting. But within the queer community, and especially among trans folks, there are often internalized expectations—like Are you passing? Or how far into your transition are you?—that unfairly gatekeeps identity.
In the disabled community, which I’m part of due to chronic illness, there’s sometimes a sense that unless you’re visibly struggling, your identity is questioned. It’s like we need to prove suffering to feel validated. That can create a toxic hierarchy of legitimacy: I’ve experienced more, so I’m more entitled to this identity.
Jacobsen: Yes. I agree—American culture heavily emphasizes individualism, sometimes at the cost of community. Many Americans agree with this opinion. In fact, in many university-level courses, especially in sociology or cross-cultural psychology, you’ll often have entire sessions in a 15-week course dedicated to exploring collectivist versus individualist cultures. For example, China is broadly categorized as collectivist, and the United States as individualist. These are broad generalizations, of course, but they hold a degree of factual accuracy when viewed at scale. Individuals vary, but cultural frameworks influence how identity is perceived and expressed.
I see this happening, particularly in how people relate to their identities within accepted American social categories. There’s a kind of diffusion of the “Self”—capital S—becomes so porous that when someone else’s identity, which falls into a “not-me” category, begins to bleed into your conceptual boundaries, it can feel destabilizing. This is true for some heterosexual people, for some trans people, and for anyone heavily invested in their identity structure. I think people need a bit more cosmopolitanism—a broader view of how fluid and contextual identity is.
Darling: I agree.
Jacobsen: So let’s move to your world—app development and tech innovation, especially in spaces shaped by AI and the creator economy. These are much more fluid environments compared to traditional workplaces or industries. How do people navigating fluid or evolving identities, like someone who is trans and transitioning while building a product or launching a platform, cope in that space?
For example, they’re at a stage in their transition where they do what feels right for them, and their audience sees that process unfold in real time. This is a vulnerable space, mainly when people are used to engaging with static or binary identity presentations.
I’m reminded of a more mainstream example: Caitlyn Jenner. Of course, she was a famous Olympian long before her transition became public. While there’s more visibility and acceptance today, there is still significant pushback, and for creators, that pushback can occur mid-platform development, right in the middle of audience-building and content creation. For people not accustomed to shifting identities, it can be confusing. It can be painful for the individual undergoing the transition when others do not recognize or respect who they are becoming.
Darling: A good example of this, and whether you love her or not, is Dylan Mulvaney, an important figure. She’s a popular trans creator who began building a platform before and during her transition. Her journey has played out mainly in public, and she’s faced enormous support and aggressive backlash. It’s an intense spotlight, but it shows how creators can bring audiences along if they’re authentic, vulnerable, and consistent.
So, Dylan was male-presenting. She was assigned male at birth, and all of her early content reflected who she was before her transition. What made her path so impactful is that, unlike some other creators who pull back, closing the curtain, going quiet, and returning post-transition, she brought her audience with her every step.
That’s more similar to what Caitlyn Jenner did not do. Caitlyn essentially disappeared from the public eye for a period. People weren’t seeing her out and about. There were vague reports and whispers—she was having work done—and people speculated: Is this just a vain man obsessed with his looks? Or is Caitlyn transitioning? It was ambiguous. The public didn’t know what was happening and was left to guess until there was a big, orchestrated reveal.
What younger generations, particularly on platforms like TikTok and Instagram, are doing differently is integrating their journey into their content. Instead of making themselves the center of a celebrity-style “reveal,” they involve their audience. Dylan Mulvaney is an excellent example of that. Even before she came out as trans, she had a large queerfollowing because she was open about being queer.
So when she eventually came out and began transitioning, her audience was already emotionally invested in her. She documented everything through her “Days of Girlhood” series. She came out publicly, said “I identify as a woman,” and invited people to witness her exploring what girlhood means to her—things like getting her nails done for the first time, growing her hair out, wearing a dress, and embracing experiences commonly associated with girlhood.
That vulnerability sparked much support—and much backlash. Many Americans, especially those unfamiliar or uncomfortable with trans identities, reacted strongly to the idea of someone assigned male at birth claiming girlhood. There was discourse both from within and outside the queer community.
Some queer and trans individuals criticized her, saying, “This isn’t what a trans woman should be or look like.” Others, especially from outside the community, felt she was infringing on what they saw as “real” girlhood, saying things like, “This takes womanhood away from me.”
Jacobsen: So it becomes a personal journey and a public and cultural flashpoint. And there’s so much nuance. I’ve even been talking with a few gender-affirming surgeons lately, and they’ve pointed out how fast the medical techniques are evolving. For example, bottom surgery today compared to 20 years ago is radically different—more advanced, more precise, and more accessible in some cases.
Even things like the prominence of an Adam’s apple, which used to be a significant barrier to being perceived as female, are now more manageable with advances in facial feminization surgery. So even what we consider “passable” is changing—socially and technically. It’s not just about cultural fluency or presentation—it’s also about rapidly evolving medical options.
They pointed out that traditional Adam’s apple reduction surgery is much riskier because the surgeon has to go in through the mouth and work downward, similar to how you would approach certain cancers in the lymph nodes of the throat. It’s a more invasive procedure.
But now, some surgeons are using a less invasive method where they go in from behind and shave the thyroid cartilage down internally. Because it’s done from inside, there’s no visible external scar, which can be significant for people concerned about presentation.
That procedure reduces the prominence of a stereotypically male feature—the Adam’s apple—without leaving a mark. It doesn’t fundamentally change the voice—that’s an entirely different process—but it can help someone feel more comfortable in how they’re perceived.
Darling: However, there’s something significant to say about this: the idea of “passing” or even fully medically transitioning is, in itself, a privilege. Many people, especially in marginalized communities, cannot afford gender-affirming surgeries or have to fight their insurance providers over coverage.
Access to surgeons who specialize in these procedures and the resources to pursue them is a form of privilege. However, reaching a point of gender expression that aligns with your sense of self, whatever “passing” means to you.
Jacobsen: That’s a significant issue in the U.S. right now. Unfortunately, we’re seeing many states move to restrict or eliminate access to gender-affirming care, which takes that possibility away from many people.
Someone recently brought this up to me—I am a physical therapist based in Texas, so I am closer to you than to me. I am probably working in an even more difficult state environment than Arizona. However, Arizona has its complications, too, especially outside the cities.
That physical therapist in Texas mentioned something critical: with the current legislative rollbacks, some of these laws aren’t even directly about the trans community, but the effects will impact them. Because of the structure of these healthcare policies, broad restrictions in medical practice or insurance coverage can hit trans people especially hard.
The impact is real. I’ve spoken with doctors who have left the United States to practice in Canada because they’re treated better there. That is one layer. Another issue is that people don’t want to immigrate to the U.S. as doctors anymore, not because they hate trans people, but because they do not want to work in an environment where medical professionals are mistreated, underpaid, or overregulated. That has a downstream impact on care across the board.
And then there’s a more nuanced point that someone recently made to me—something I hadn’t fully considered. Due to fear and social pressure, we’re now seeing some people detransition, at least insofar as it’s possible for them. Can you discuss how that might impact the creator space and representation more broadly?
Darling: Yes. I had an acquaintance—let me use his current preferred pronouns—he/him. He was assigned male at birth, and I met him about ten years ago. At that time, he had begun transitioning from male to female. He had gotten fairly far along in his transition. He had undergone top surgery, was on hormones, and was considering facial feminization surgery. He wasn’t a primary content creator, but he had a presence online, and I followed his journey.
As is often the case, many people are watching these journeys silently. They may not comment, they may not “like” or repost. Still, they’re there—quiet observers who might be closeted themselves, or afraid to engage publicly due to fear of being outed at work, school, or within their families.
What happened in his case was tragic. He began experiencing intense pushback from people in his immediate circle. He was bullied. The costs—financial, emotional, and social—kept adding up. Eventually, he made the heartbreaking decision to detransition. And I say “heartbreaking” because, from everything he had shared, it was clear this was not what he wanted, but rather what he felt was safest.
So, he reclaimed his he/him pronouns, began dressing more masculinely again, and essentially went back into the closet, not out of personal regret, but out of social necessity.
This had a profound impact on those of us who followed his story. We were devastated for him. But beyond that, his detransition planted a seed of fear in others who were watching: Am I next? Will this happen to me if I keep going?
It introduces a chilling effect into the community, especially online, where people often seek affirmation and connection. This applies to public figures, too, like Caitlyn Jenner, who, despite her visibility and privilege, still became a political and cultural lightning rod. The implication becomes: If even someone famous and wealthy gets targeted, what chance do I have?
Caitlyn Jenner went through a complete transition and came out publicly, but since then she’s made some incredibly harmful statements about the queer and trans community—even though she is a trans woman. It’s disheartening. That kind of rhetoric undermines trust and causes real harm, especially within marginalized communities. When someone from within the community walks back their identity or aligns with narratives that invalidate that identity, even if framed as a safety decision, it sparks fear, confusion, and frustration.
Just the other day—maybe yesterday or the day before—a prominent lesbian content creator on TikTok posted a video saying she had a spiritual “conversion moment.” She claimed that God came to her in a vision and told her she needed to stop being gay. She said she woke up from that vision and was no longer a lesbian. She had converted and is now identifying as Christian.
The response was intense. She received a flood of support from conservative users who see that as a “success story”—as if sexuality is something that can be chosen or changed. But for her former audience, particularly queer folks—predominantly Black, queer people who had seen her as a proud, visible figure—it was devastating.
When someone who’s publicly deconstructed their identity then turns around and says, “Actually, I was wrong. I’m going back,” it sends a painful message. First of all, that’s not how sexual orientation works. And second, it delegitimizes the experiences of people still struggling for acceptance. It makes everyone look bad in that moment, even if that wasn’t her intent.
Jacobsen: Yes, and what you’re describing touches on something more profound—something structural. People are individuals. However, when the legal system or the social climate is built to treat people based on collective identity, anyone who belongs, whether they want to or not, feels the impact of one person’s action within that group.
So when someone publicly detransitions or disavows their queerness, people say, “This hurts all of us.” That’s the paradox of representation and fame. Your identity becomes a symbolic battleground. And even if it’s just one person’s journey, the consequences ripple across an entire community.
Darling: That plays out constantly in social media, where there’s an intense push-and-pull between individualism and community.
Something we’re mindful of at Neptune is balance. Social media originally promised connection, but it became standardized and impersonal somewhere along the way. I think back to the MySpace era, when people had unique pages—they coded their backgrounds, curated their profiles, and truly expressed themselves. Individuality and identity were embedded in the platform.
But then came Apple’s rise—and I believe their design aesthetic influenced everything underneath it. Everything became clean, minimal, white, and uniform—one button, one style. And suddenly, everyone’s profiles started to look the same. That sense of personal expression was stripped away.
We’re trying to return to that individuality ethos within a supportive community framework. People need to feel seen as themselves and safe as part of a collective. That’s the challenge and the opportunity in designing platforms today.
Because of that shift, we saw a pendulum swing toward hyper-individualism, where suddenly, your Instagram feed had to be perfectly curated, aesthetically pleasing, and highly differentiated. You needed to stand out at a glance. The idea was that someone could land on your profile and instantly get a visual snapshot of who you were. However, by focusing so intensely on individualism, we have lost the social part of social media.
One of the things we’re trying to do at Neptune is bring that sense of community back. We’re working to encourage creators to support each other—to rebuild that communal framework. Admittedly, we’re still early in this journey and don’t have a full suite of community tools built into the platform yet. Those features are technically complex and only work well when you already have many users.
What we have done, though, is launch a robust Discord server. It’s already becoming a dynamic space where people are forming real communities. Without a better phrase, we just threw everyone into the same server. We said: Look, we’re here with shared values—equity, community, and yes, the ability to make a living so we can feed ourselves, our families, and our cats. Find your people. And they did.
Well, some of us live large with two cats [Laughing], but seriously—they found their people. We’re seeing these pods of community form. People are organizing their meetups, even offline. It’s powerful to watch.
It proves that you can embrace individualism without rejecting community. You don’t have to say, “I belong to no one, I’m not part of anything,” to express your uniqueness. The two aren’t mutually exclusive.
For many Americans, that’s a radical idea—a community without a mob mentality. It’s healthy. It doesn’t strip you of your individuality. The humanist community has a great way of expressing this balance in its declarations. They affirm individual freedom, which leans toward the libertarian side, and social responsibility, which leans toward a collectivist or socialist view. It’s about the proper balance between the two.
Jacobsen: That’s a vital line you’re drawing—between identity, perception, and coexistence. I’ve tried to think through this dynamic before, and maybe I can parse it like this—bear with me.
So, on one hand, you have the individual, how a person sees. On the other hand, you have the community, which sees that person, however it’s going to, regardless of accuracy. Sometimes, that perception is neutral, occasionally harmful, and sometimes affirming.
And then there’s this third hand, because there might be three hands here [Laughing], which is respecting the coexistence of individual self-concept alongside diverse social contexts. You can hold your identity while recognizing that others will have their own opinions about it, and those opinions may or may not affect you directly.
It’s the reality of living in a pluralistic society. Whether you’re a white-bearded evangelical guy in Arizona who enjoys chopping wood, or someone who once took Amtrak and overheard a person saying, “I don’t want no weirdos next to me,”—and they’re saying prefacing that with “I’m Black, I’m trans, and I’m seven months pregnant”—everyone is navigating identity both internally and externally.
Darling: People carry their own stories and self-concepts; sometimes those get affirmed, and sometimes they don’t. But holding space for those realities is where real community starts.
Jacobsen: You can have policy or legal frameworks that affect individuals based on their belonging, generally speaking, to a group. When that happens, it’s no longer just someone’s random opinion—it becomes personal, because it can change your material reality. That’s when it matters.
Now, where it doesn’t impact me directly is in religious opinion. For example, I know people who think, “Scott doesn’t realize it, but he’s a child of God,” and so on. That doesn’t affect me—I don’t care. But if someone gets in my face with it aggressively, then yes, that’s when it crosses into personal impact.
Where it becomes severe is when policy changes, or laws are passed, that target marginalized communities. Take white supremacists, for instance. Many of them have grotesque views about trans people or LGBTQ+ folks in general. Some of them deny trans identities altogether. But suppose they’re ranting in a basement somewhere. In that case, it’s different from them influencing legislation that strips rights away from real people. That’s the critical distinction.
So, in the creator space—and especially for LGBTQ+ and BIPOC creators—how do you advocate for people, or help them advocate for themselves, despite ignorant or hateful opinions? At the same time, how do you build collective power so that when discriminatory policy does arise, you can respond effectively—reverse it, or push for stronger, more inclusive protections? I hope that made sense.
Darling: Yes, it does. That’s a thoughtful and layered question—let me think through it briefly.
This is one of the ongoing challenges. Neptune is a private company that operates in a very public space. So we’ve built our policies around giving people the maximum freedom within the legal framework we’re bound to as a U.S.-based business.
The difficulty comes when people assume their perception of rights applies across the board, especially around speech. A policy written to protect one person’s rights might not work for someone else or conflict with another community’s safety and dignity. Take freedom of speech as an example. Whenever I go live—whether on TikTok, Meta, talking about Neptune—someone inevitably says, “This is a free speech platform, right?” And my answer is yes, but also no.
We’re not the U.S. government. We’re a private company. The First Amendment protects your speech from government interference. It doesn’t guarantee you a platform on private networks. So no, you can’t come into our space and spout racial slurs or spread hate speech and then claim First Amendment protection. That’s not how it works. People will try to twist that and say, “Well then, you’re not a free speech platform.” But they say, “I want a space where I can say harmful things without consequences.” That’s not freedom. That’s a license.
At Neptune, we try to create a space where everyone, especially LGBTQ+ and BIPOC creators, can speak freely without fear of harassment or violence. Freedom means protection, equity, and community, not unregulated chaos.
It comes down to how people interpret what they believe they have the freedom to do. It ties back to that ongoing tension between the individual and the collective. If someone thinks they have the right to say whatever they want without consequences, I’ve said this before, and I’ll repeat it—Neptune is not the place for you.
We intentionally build a healthy community, which means continuously reviewing our policies. Our community guidelines have been peer-reviewed by a diverse panel of folks from various backgrounds who looked them over and, generally speaking, agreed that they work pretty well for now.
But in practice, things get more complex. Someone will inevitably come to us and say, “You took my content down unfairly. That violated my free speech.” Our role is to evaluate those claims, stay flexible, and ensure our policies serve the whole. We can’t build our policies solely around individual preferences—they must be based on the collective experience.
That’s why diversity is essential—gender diversity, BIPOC representation, disability inclusion, or more. The majority experience isn’t representative of everyone. We need as many voices in the room as possible, with real seats at the table, saying, “This is how this policy impacts me.” That’s the kind of feedback we want.
Now, in terms of policy at the state or federal level, we hope to grow into a platform that can advocate on behalf of our users—particularly BIPOC, queer, and disabled communities. When legislation affects people’s ability to move freely online or talk about their lived experiences, we want to speak up for their right to be here and be heard.
And here’s the thing—we get to decide. As a private company, we can determine what goes on our platform and what doesn’t.
A clear example of what we don’t want to replicate is TikTok. Right now, creators are being suppressed left and right. Say something against the president? Against MAGA? Anti-conservative in tone? It gets pulled, muted, or flagged for violations—deeply concerning.
No law says you can’t express political dissent, but some platforms act like there is. We aim to operate as our entity, offering users maximum individual freedom within a framework that protects the community. It’s a tricky balance—especially in America—but we’re committed to trying to strike it.
Jacobsen: Right, and that’s the paradox in American digital culture—maximum individual freedom coexisting with the needs of a shared space. You’re managing that tension transparently, which is rare. Here’s a funny—and sad—footnote. It’s been reported that Elon Musk reengineered the algorithm on X (formerly Twitter) because he was upset that his posts weren’t getting as many views as he thought they should. Patton Oswalt made the point that it’s just… sad. Like, when is enough attention enough?
After all the chaos around attempts to slow down OpenAI, Sam Altman critiqued Musk. Altman said something to the effect of, ‘He’s insecure.’ The interviewer asked, ‘Really?’ Altman responded, ‘No—honestly. His whole life is about that.’Of course, that’s just one person’s opinion, but it carries weight. There’s qualitative truth in it.
Anyway, here’s where I want to go with the closing question:
We often talk about moderation and policies in terms of protecting marginalized communities—BIPOC, LGBTQ+, and disabled folks—from harmful content. But what happens when a person from a marginalized community uses derogatory language toward someone in what is perceived as a “majority” group? For example, what if a queer user uses a slur against a cisgender, heterosexual, white Christian woman? Or what if a BIPOC creator makes a generalizing or inflammatory comment about white people?
That kind of reverse case isn’t discussed as much. So how do you handle that? Especially in a context where people often try to apply the First Amendment across all platforms—even though, as we’ve said, that’s a misunderstanding of how free speech works in private spaces. So: How do you finesse your policies to handle those cases—when someone from a historically marginalized identity says something that has real consequences for someone else? And how do you distinguish that from reclaiming slurs within a community?
Darling: That’s such a thoughtful and essential question. As we do at Neptune, a diverse team of human moderators is crucial. There’s much nuance to it.
We had this discussion early on, specifically around community slurs. Take the N-word, for example. It’s used in particular ways within the Black community. Many Black folks are comfortable using that term with each other, but anyone outside that community using it is wrong no matter the explanation. It’s a matter of context, history, and shared experience.
The same is true in the queer community. There are words I might use with another queer person—maybe someone who’s a close friend—that would be entirely inappropriate for someone else to say. There’s a layer of cultural permission and proximity that matters. So our approach is not to have one-size-fits-all rules. Instead, we look at intent, impact, and context. Was it targeted harassment? Was it intra-community discourse? Was it satire, or reclaiming, or something else? We should deliberate on how we handle that.
Of course, it’s never perfect. But we’d rather scrutinize these situations, especially when identity and culture are involved, than default to binary enforcement that doesn’t consider real life. And so having the ability to source that nuance—to say, “This doesn’t need to be removed because it’s not derogatory, it’s accepted vernacular within the creator’s community”—is enormous. No other social media platform is doing that.
However, if a straight person were to enter a queer person’s space and use those exact words as slurs or spread hate speech, there would be punitive action taken—against the bully, not the original creator. That’s a key difference in building Neptune compared to the others.
Platforms like TikTok and Meta have openly acknowledged that they suppress BIPOC, queer, and disabled users’ content—not necessarily because they’re targeting them intentionally, but because they don’t want to deal with the moderation challenges that arise. Their logic has been, “If we suppress their visibility, they won’t become targets.”
Of course, this is a systemic erasure. What we’ve done reasonably well so far—and it’s become this fascinating experiment in brand and culture—is build Neptune to become its own culture. The brand is the culture.
By nature, a lot of highly conservative users don’t feel at home in our ecosystem. That’s not because we exclude anyone—we don’t—but because the culture is unapologetically BIPOC, queer, disabled, and yes, proudly weird. We lovingly refer to ourselves as the island of misfit toys. Most of us haven’t fit in anywhere else.
So when people who don’t resonate with that come in, they often self-select out. It’ll be interesting to see how that plays out as we scale, how the culture evolves, and how our community standards are tested in practice.
We also empower creators with tools to moderate their content. For example, if someone comes into a Black creator’s space and leaves a racist comment or hate speech—and our moderation systems, whether AI or human, don’t catch it right away—that creator can still delete or report the comment directly.
This is where human moderation is crucial. If someone leaves a comment that technically isn’t flagged by AI, because the language might not hit the hate-speech threshold, but a human moderator sees it and says, “No, no. That term carries historical or coded significance,” then we act.
Jacobsen: Triple parentheses kind of stuff. “Globalist.” “Internationalist.” These terms have meaning, and dog whistles matter.
Darling: So that’s how we’re planning to handle these situations. And look, it’s all a big experiment, because we’re learning. We’re committed to building something different. Many other platforms have been bland in their branding and messaging. They say, “We’re for everyone.”
Sure, we say that too—but here’s the thing: if you’re in our space and don’t subscribe to our values—like equity, community, and enterprise—you’ll probably feel a little… ostracized.
The word equity alone triggers many people in the U.S. Some hear that and immediately go, “Oh, that’s woke. I want no part of it.” Seeing how that all plays out as we grow will be interesting.
So far, over 5,000 people have joined our beta, and we haven’t had any real issues. Beta users are usually early adopters, so they’re often more value-aligned. Once we open to the general public, you get the bad actors who come in to test boundaries. They’ll upload explicit content, spam, or try to see how far they can push the rules. That’s part of scaling.
But honestly, we’ve been lucky so far to have a fantastic, supportive community. Seeing how that holds up when we expand beyond beta will be interesting.
Jacobsen: Many companies and organizations beta-test AI, mainly narrow, task-specific AI that’s more sophisticated than basic algorithms but still reasonably simple. One method they use is keyword filtering. And there have been some hilarious and problematic examples of that. I remember a case involving Doge where content was flagged because of the word gay, about the Enola Gay, the WWII aircraft. That’s not precisely a contradiction—it’s more of an analogy. But could you see something like that happening on Neptune if keyword filtering catches a word used innocently or historically?
Darling: Theoretically, sure. But we’re cautious about what we filter. For example, we’re not filtering out words like gay, queer, or lesbian. That would never happen.
So no one could come in and say, “Oh my god, that’s so queer,” and get flagged just because the AI doesn’t understand context. I mean, could someone use a word like queer in a retro way—like people did in the ’50s? Maybe. But I don’t see a viable use case for that problem. Still, hypothetically, I get your point.
That’s precisely why we don’t rely solely on AI moderation. We use AI to catch obvious issues—basic keyword and behavioural pattern stuff—but then we have human moderators who step in for review. If the AI flags something and a creator says, “Hey, that’s not fair,” they can appeal it. A human moderator reviews the case, and if it was wrongly penalized, we fix it. The violation is wiped, and the account is restored to normal.
Jacobsen: That’s the right way to do it. These systems are built on current iterations of human language, which is constantly changing. So having AI makes things more efficient and cost-effective, but it’s not infallible.
Darling: That’s why we’re committed to having diverse human moderators. It’s like having a second layer of cultural context—what you might call horizontal activation. These folks understand nuance, subtext, and cultural references. AI isn’t there yet. So we need that human texture to keep things fair, inclusive, and responsive. Human moderators can grasp the nuance of how something is perceived. We’re not applying a flat tier for speech—context matters. That’s a huge differentiator.
Jacobsen: So, what else should I export here? When you talk about platform design and moderation, do you see a fundamental distinction in approach between entrepreneurs—those dealing with the software or application layer—and technologists or engineers who are working behind the scenes? In other words, do you think there’s a different philosophy between the front-facing founders or brand-centred creators and the backend developers—the proverbial “square-glasses”computer science crowd?
Darling: There’s a difference. One is front-facing, and one is back-end. The approach varies depending on the individual, of course. Still, entrepreneurs and brand-builders generally think about voice, values, and user relationships. At the same time, engineers are focused on building the tools to make that possible, ideally without friction.
Jacobsen: What questions do you think people should be asking about platforms like Neptune but haven’t yet? Are there taboos or unspoken areas you’re navigating?
Darling: Depending on the political climate, a lot of what we’re doing might be considered countercultural or even subversive.
For example, in our current U.S. administration, there have been significant rollbacks around pronoun visibility. In many government settings, people can no longer share their pronouns proactively. So on Neptune, we’ve made it a point to include space on profiles where users can share their pronouns if they choose to. It’s optional—but available. That small decision becomes meaningful when the broader landscape tries to erase it.
And until that becomes outright illegal, we’ll keep offering that space. We’ll adapt the design if necessary—“This is a place for anything you want people to know about you.” What people choose to put in that space is up to them.
Another area is press freedom. American media is experiencing a major credibility crisis; many people no longer trust mainstream outlets. Our user base, in particular, leans heavily on independent journalists to stay informed. Everything here is values-based—people follow journalists and creators who share their worldview.
So we’re actively exploring ways to support those independent voices. One feature we’re testing is geotagged event streaming. Say you’re an independent journalist on the scene of something happening—you could go live and tag your location. If users have alerts set within a 15-mile radius, they’d get a notification: “This is happening now. Do you want to watch the live stream?”
That could be incredibly powerful, especially in the context of things like ICE raids or civil protests. We don’t want to dictate how people use these tools, but given everything happening in the U.S., people will naturally adapt the technology to their needs.
Tools intended for lighthearted sharing—community events, art, creativity—could evolve into tools for survival, journalism, or real-time activism. Humans are adaptive. They’ll use whatever they can to survive, connect, and stay informed when pushed. We’re building with that in mind—even if the original intention of a feature was something much more casual.
Should other methods of connectivity be shut off—made inaccessible, restricted, etc.—there’s always the underlying fear, especially as a business, of pissing off the government. There’s this lingering anxiety: What if they legislate that all social media apps must follow XYZ guidelines? Or function only in such-and-such a manner?
But not building Neptune out of fear was never an option for me. People often ask, “Are you scared? Are you worried you’ll get banned or draw the administration’s attention because you’re carving out space for people they’re actively marginalizing—or worse?” And yes—it’s scary. But it’s also exciting. There’s something defiant and hopeful about doing it anyway.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Ashley.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/15
Dr. Tracy E. Crane, PhD, RDN, of the University of Miami, discusses the MAC-3 program, exploring how circadian fasting, body composition, and metabolomics impact renal cell carcinoma treatment outcomes. With over $30 million in research funding, Dr. Crane’s team combines mouse and human trials to investigate the obesity paradox, emphasizing behavioural science, dietary timing, and precision interventions. The research aims to improve cancer care through scalable, cost-effective methods by integrating wearable technologies, glucose monitoring, and advanced imaging. This multidisciplinary approach highlights how fasting duration and fat distribution might reshape clinical strategies in oncology.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are joined by Dr. Tracy E. Crane, PhD, RDN, Associate Professor of Medical Oncology, Public Health, and Kinesiology at the University of Miami Miller School of Medicine. She serves as Co-Leader of the Cancer Control Research Program and Director of Lifestyle Medicine, Prevention, and Digital Health at the Sylvester Comprehensive Cancer Center.
Dr. Crane is internationally recognized for her cancer prevention and survivorship work, focusing on integrating lifestyle interventions, such as nutrition and exercise, into cancer care. Her research emphasizes using digital health technologies to deliver personalized behavioural strategies to improve patient outcomes across the cancer continuum. Over the past five years, she has secured over $30 million in research funding, including multiple National Cancer Institute (NCI)-funded studies and a large Patient-Centred Outcomes Research Institute (PCORI)-funded trial. She has authored over 100 peer-reviewed publications, including co-authoring the latest American Cancer Society guidelines on nutrition and physical activity for cancer survivors.
Dr. Crane also serves as Vice Chair of the Cancer Prevention and Control Committee for NRG Oncology’s NCI Community Oncology Research Program (NCORP).
Dr. Crane, what inspired the development of the MAC-3 program, particularly about renal cell carcinoma?
Crane: The MAC-3 program was developed to explore the impact of dietary interventions on renal cell carcinoma outcomes. We recognized that a multidisciplinary approach—combining expertise from various scientific disciplines—was essential to address the complex questions surrounding cancer prevention and treatment. For instance, Dr. Scott Wellford leads preclinical studies using mouse models to investigate dietary effects in this project, while I oversee parallel human clinical trials. This collaborative approach allows us to align our studies closely, ensuring that findings from animal models can inform human interventions and vice versa.
In human trials, we face ethical and practical limitations in manipulating diets, but mouse models offer more control over dietary variables. By conducting these studies concurrently, we can synthesize our findings to generate comprehensive insights, leading to more effective and personalized dietary strategies for cancer patients. This synergy accelerates our research progress, so we named the program MAC-3—a nod to “Mach 3,” symbolizing high speed—reflecting our commitment to advancing cancer research swiftly through team science.
Jacobsen: So the other part of this involves Dr. Lombard. He is a pathologist who specializes in metabolomics—studying biological processes at the molecular level to understand what tissues, tumours, and blood samples are signalling. What are the cells doing? How are they communicating? Could you elaborate on his role?
Crane: Yes. Both the mouse and human studies send biological samples to Dr. Lombard. He analyzes those samples and helps conclude from a metabolomic perspective. By adding that layer—looking at what the cells are doing in real time, including things like sirtuin activity—we can move more quickly toward answering larger research questions. These are questions we would not be able to answer as quickly or thoroughly if we worked in isolated silos.
If you did everything independently, you might get the same answers. However, it would take much longer, and you would miss the insights that emerge when multiple scientific perspectives come together. That is the power of multidisciplinary science.
Jacobsen: Moving into the following research phase, how can you precisely predict disease risk or treatment outcomes? How early can these predictions be made, and how accurately can they become?
Crane: One of the primary motivations behind this work is addressing the obesity paradox in renal cell carcinoma. It is a fascinating and counterintuitive phenomenon. Obesity is a known risk factor for developing renal cell carcinoma. However, once a person has the disease and begins treatment, obesity appears protective. That paradox—how the same factor can increase risk yet offer a protective effect later—does not make intuitive sense, and we are trying to understand why that happens.
We are developing potential biomarkers not only from blood samples but also from body imaging. One of the aims of this trial is to analyze body composition through imaging. We want to see if something is changing or shifting—perhaps BMI, a crude, population-level measure of obesity, is not the right tool for assessing individual risk. Maybe the answers lie in specific aspects of body composition.
Precision would come from combining multiple tools, like imaging and metabolomics. By integrating advanced imaging, metabolomic profiling, and other biological markers, we aim to better analyze who is at higher risk and what interventions they need.
Jacobsen: So, theoretically, if someone with a high BMI develops renal cell carcinoma and then loses a significant amount of weight, would that correlate with a higher risk of mortality?
Crane: That is what our current epidemiological data suggest. Extensive cohort studies—epidemiological trials—show associations like this. However, those are not cause-and-effect studies. That is why our current project is a randomized controlled trial. We are not just looking at weight loss; we are specifically examining whether manipulating metabolism, without necessarily changing body weight, affects outcomes. It is about understanding whether the metabolic changes, not just the physical weight, influence cancer responses.
Jacobsen: When you say body composition, you mean total body fat, muscle mass, etc.?
Crane: Yes, and it is important to recognize that fat does not distribute evenly across people. Some individuals carry more visceral fat in the abdomen; others store fat in the hips or thighs. Moreover, some people may even shift fat stores on purpose. However, in general, this variability matters a lot.
Jacobsen: Are there particular fat or fat distribution types that seem more significant?
Crane: That is precisely what we are trying to determine. Not all adipose tissue is created equal. Visceral adipose tissue, for example, behaves very differently from subcutaneous fat. Understanding the role of different fat types and distributions could be crucial in predicting risk and tailoring treatment strategies. You have brown fat, and you have white fat. These different types of adipose tissue have distinct metabolic functions and responses.
When we talk about lean mass, that includes muscle and bone, it is important to understand what happens to these tissues when patients undergo treatment for renal cell carcinoma. Are there changes in response to the treatment contributing to this paradoxical outcome? We are still trying to investigate many unknowns. We hope to better understand the obesity paradox by looking at the whole picture, from whole-body imaging and body composition down to the smallest particles of cellular metabolism.
Jacobsen: Are there other methods that might be as coarse as body composition but still as accurate or predictive in identifying risk? Could something else serve that purpose just as well?
Crane: That is a good question. Honestly, I do not know yet. Body composition may or may not be the best predictor, which is precisely why we do science. Our current hypothesis is that it offers real potential.
Another important consideration is clinical translation. We aim to build on tools and resources already available in the healthcare system. For example, most patients undergo routine imaging as part of their standard care. These scans are not currently analyzed for body composition in clinical practice, but we can add that layer of analysis.
Suppose we use existing scans, layer on the body composition data, and combine that with biomarkers from blood samples, which we collect in large volumes. In that case, we can develop clinically useful prediction models. The point is to use what is readily available to avoid burdening the healthcare system and still generate valuable insights.
Could there be a completely different biomarker or a better method that works even more accurately? Absolutely. That is always a possibility. However, this approach—the one we developed as a team—offers a strong scientific rationale and the most significant translational potential.
Jacobsen: Really, it is what you said earlier—this is why we do science. It reminds me of a talk by Richard Dawkins a while back where he discussed different kinds of language, contrasting scientific talk with non-scientific language.
If I remember correctly, he made the point that there is a reason why writing in scientific journals often reads a certain way. It might seem dry or formulaic to some, but it reflects the precision required in scientific discourse. It is not about embellishment but clarity, evidence, and reproducibility.
Dawkins gave other examples, quoting what he called a “peer-reviewed journal”—though in that case, it was fictional. He said something like, “It has been privately revealed to Dr. So-and-so that…” to demonstrate how non-scientific language differs. So that scientific spirit you are pointing to is critical—it underscores the importance of method and discipline in getting accurate results.
Crane: There is a specific way of doing things in science. It is about getting to the truth through reproducible, evidence-based approaches, not intuition or anecdote.
Jacobsen: Now, shifting focus a bit—what about biological rhythms and dietary interventions? Suppose two individuals have the same body composition. One is vegan, another pescatarian, and another follows a fad like eating three steaks a day. Do we have preliminary findings on how diet types affect outcomes, or is that still theoretical? Are those relevant considerations?
Crane: That is a great question. One of the things we are exploring relates to what Dr. Scott Wellford is doing in the lab with mouse models. He has already been altering the mice’ diets—testing high-fat versus low-fat variations, for example. However, what he has not done yet is adjust for circadian alignment.
We are beginning to see metabolic shifts based on dietary composition that correlate with how well the mice do when they have renal cell carcinoma. We see real potential based on Scott’s findings and my research on prolonged overnight fasting and circadian rhythm alignment. The key is balancing what science shows us with what we can realistically ask human patients to do.
In my human trials, I have been studying how meal timing can help align circadian rhythms. One of the most effective ways to do that is adjusting when people eat relative to daylight after the sun comes up, when you break your fast, matters a lot.
Prolonging the overnight fasting window—from 7 PM to 9 AM the next day—can improve circadian alignment. People undergoing treatment have shown high adherence to this kind of intervention. Their metabolic profiles improve, their sleep quality improves, and they tolerate treatment better. This has been documented in other cancer types, not renal cell carcinoma, yet.
However, based on that data and the metabolic indicators Scott has observed in mice, we believe this is both scientifically valid and practical for patients newly diagnosed with advanced renal cell carcinoma.
In this study, we ask participants to shift to a 14-hour daily fast. We equip them with continuous glucose monitors and wearable devices to assess circadian alignment. The only change we ask for is when they eat, not what they eat.
This will lead to favourable metabolic changes that improve treatment outcomes and reduce side effects. Beyond glucose monitoring, we will also assess cellular metabolic changes through samples analyzed by Dr. Lombard, which may further illuminate protective mechanisms.
We also expect to observe changes in body composition due to this dietary timing intervention, which is part of what we are measuring.
Jacobsen: As always, at the end of every academic poster, presentation, or publication, there is that familiar line: “More research is needed.”
Crane: [Laughing] Yes, fill in the blank!
Jacobsen: Where do you see the next step in this line of research? We have been focusing on body composition and circadian alignment—what logically follows from here?
Crane: Once we run this first trial, the next step is to analyze the data and identify which variables responded well and which did not. We are not restricting what people eat during their 10-hour eating window, but monitoring their choices. Between Dr. Wellford’s trials in mice and what we observe in the human participants, we will better understand what the subsequent intervention should look like.
That next step would likely combine predictors from body composition data with tailored dietary guidance—essentially, figuring out not just when to eat, but what to eat based on individual characteristics.
I suspect that prolonged overnight fasting will have a favourable impact. The real question is, once we establish that, what do we do with food intake? We can prescribe specific interventions tailored to metabolic profiles if Dr. Lombard finds early signatures in the metabolomics data.
All these data—wearables, body composition, blood biomarkers—will come together. We also track things like sleep, daily step count, and overall activity through wearable devices. So we are looking for phenotypes—composite profiles of individuals—that respond best to specific interventions. The goal is to move toward precision interventions.
Jacobsen: Do you have any favourite facts or findings from the research papers?
Crane: That is a great question—and a tough one. There is so much to choose from.
However, one of my favourite findings is how well individuals can adopt circadian alignment strategies. The adherence rates from our studies are high. Moreover, this is in people undergoing treatment, which makes it even more impressive.
People do not usually think about their eating windows until you bring it to their attention. Once they become aware of how much they snack after dinner, it often leads to meaningful behavioural changes.
From a behavioural science perspective, that is a powerful takeaway. It does not cost any additional money. We are not asking them to buy different foods or follow a complicated regimen. It is accessible. Now, I should not say everyone finds it easy. However, our data shows that around 90% of participants can consistently follow the fasting window.
About ninety percent of the population would benefit from extending their time in a fasted state. When you are not constantly digesting, your body can rest, repair, and function more efficiently. Energy is not being diverted to digestion—it can be used elsewhere in the body for metabolic regulation, cellular maintenance, and recovery.
Jacobsen: I would love to interview a researcher on the Japanese school system. Their population is so healthy because every school employs professional nutritionists.
Crane: Yes, every single school has a nutritionist. The Japanese government made a deliberate effort to overhaul its school food system, which is paying off. The results are measurable.
Jacobsen: Have the Americans been bought off? I suggest adding sugar, in particular.
Crane: [Laughing] Yes… yes. Listen, we do not have to get into all of that here. Since January, I have given numerous interviews about food additives and what is happening. So we will see where that conversation goes.
Jacobsen: Tracy, thank you so much for your time and expertise.
Crane: You are welcome. It was nice to meet you.
Jacobsen: Thank you. It is nice to meet you as well. I will get to this later today.
Crane: That sounds good.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/14
Joshua Karunakaran serves as the Manager of Public Relations and Communications at the British Columbia Association of Clinical Counsellors (BCACC). In this role, he oversees the organization’s public relations strategies and communications efforts. The GST exemption for Registered Clinical Counsellors (RCCs) in British Columbia ensures that 5.7 million British Columbians have more affordable access to mental health services. Previously, RCCs had to prove “equivalent qualifications” in a regulated province, which was an impractical process. The BC Association of Clinical Counsellors (BCACC) collaborated with a regulatory college to confirm substantial equivalency, securing a blanket GST exemption from the Canada Revenue Agency (CRA) on December 20, 2024. This exemption will save $22.5 million annually and enhance employer-sponsored benefits, expanding mental health coverage for British Columbians. BCACC CEO Michael Radano and policymakers welcomed the decision.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the main takeaway from the exemption from charging GST?
Joshua Karunakaran: The biggest takeaway is that 5.7 million British Columbians now have easier access to quality mental health services through reduced costs. It also puts BC’s mental health practitioners on par with those in regulated provinces of QC, ON, PEI, NS, and NB.
Jacobsen: How many Registered Clinical Counsellors (RCCs) in BC will be affected by the GST exemption?
Karunakaran: Approximately 8,000+ Registered Clinical Counsellors in BC.
Jacobsen: Why was the first GST/HST exemption ruling problematic?
Karunakaran: On July 15, 2024, the Canada Revenue Agency stated that certain psychotherapists and counselling therapists are no longer required to collect the goods and services tax (GST) or the harmonized sales tax (HST) on their services. CRA stated that psychotherapists and counselling therapists need not charge GST/HST if they “operate in a province with no regulatory body but have the equivalent qualifications required to meet the licensing requirements in a regulated province and practice psychotherapy/counselling therapy”.
To prove that their “equivalent qualifications” meet CRA’s requirements, each psychotherapist in BC would have to get a regulatory college in a regulated province to review both their qualifications and practice. Reviewing the credentials of 8,000 Registered Clinical Counsellors (RCCs), each requiring 1-2 weeks of work is a near impossible task which would take 20+ years to accomplish.
Jacobsen: How did the BC Association of Clinical Counsellors (BCACC) resolve the equivalency?
Karunakaran: The BCACC worked diligently and collaboratively with a regulatory college in a regulated province to author a formal letter requesting to evaluate the requirements of becoming an RCC with those of a practitioner in a regulated province. After a detailed analysis of BCACC’s registration requirements, the college confirmed that for the purposes of GST/HST exemption, the qualifications of RCCs are “substantially equivalent” to those registered with the college.
The BCACC then sent this letter to the CRA seeking a blanket GST/HST exemption for all RCCs, an exemption that the CRA confirmed on Dec 20, 2024.
Jacobsen: How did the CRA confirm the GST/HST exemption in BC?
Karunakaran: The CRA communicated this through a formal letter to the BCACC, addressed to our CEO, Michael Radano.
Jacobsen: Are there other provinces that had the same exemptions already?
Karunakaran: Yes. Provinces of QC, ON, PEI, NS, and NB are regulated provinces and therefore GST-exempt.
Jacobsen: How will this exemption improve access to mental health services?
Karunakaran: According to the Canadian Mental Health Association (CMHA), by age 40, 50% of the population will have experienced a mental illness, and 1 in 5 experience mental health problems annually. The incidence of mental health issues has also been rising, particularly since the COVID-19 pandemic.
If we extrapolate that 1 in 5 British Columbians experience a form of mental distress requiring psychotherapeutic services in a given year, we estimate that approximately 1.25 million British Columbians may seek psychotherapy or clinical counselling annually.
BCACC’s Registered Clinical Counsellors (RCCs) comprise 90% of psychotherapists and clinical counsellors practicing in British Columbia. Currently, our membership has over 8,000 members practicing across BC.
Each year, our Find a Counsellor tool averages approximately 125,000 visits from individuals seeking counselling services. If a British Columbian sees a counsellor twice a month at an average rate of $150 per session, the total cost of counselling services amounts to approximately $450,000,000 annually. Eliminating GST from these services results in about $22.5 million in savings for British Columbians. This estimate only accounts for private practice sessions and does not include individuals accessing counselling through social programs or health authorities. If we were able to account for all psychotherapy services provided, the total savings could be close to $45 million per year.
Another crucial implication is that many British Columbians can only access a limited number of counselling sessions through their extended health plans due to monetary caps. RCCs often charge significantly less than other mental health providers. With their services now exempt from GST, employers adding RCCs to their benefits plans can extend mental health coverage, ensuring that employees have access to more sessions while maximizing the value of their plans. The same holds true for publicly funded programs and other mental health service providers working in agencies and health authorities across BC.
Jacobsen: What have the BCACC CEO and other executives said about the GST exemption decision?
Karunakaran: “The BCACC welcomes the CRA’s decision to remove GST on psychotherapy services. This ruling ensures that every British Columbian has the same level of access to mental health services as those in regulated provinces. We look forward to working collaboratively with the CRA to ensure a smooth transition. The association is currently working to distill the information to its members through regular communiques so that they, in turn, can communicate this positive development to their clients” – BCACC CEO, Michael Radano
“Great news that Registered Clinical Counsellors in BC no longer have to charge GST on psychotherapy. Thanks to my colleague
@LMathys for championing this issue. This change will help make services more affordable for people needing support”
Gord Johns, MP – NDP, Courtenay-Alberni
Jacobsen: Josh, thank you very much.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/13
Riane Eisler, an Austrian-born American systems scientist, futurist, and human rights advocate, is renowned for her influential work on cultural transformation and gender equity. Best known for “The Chalice and the Blade,” she introduced the partnership versus dominator models of social organization. She received the Humanist Pioneer Award, and in conversation with Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Eisler emphasized the urgent need for humanists to focus on values-based systems and the transformative power of caring economics. Drawing on neuroscience and history, she argues that peace begins at home and calls for a shift in worldview to build more equitable, sustainable, and compassionate societies rooted in connection rather than control. The three books of hers of note that could be highlighted are The Chalice and the Blade—now in its 57th U.S. printing with 30 foreign editions, The Real Wealth of Nations, and Nurturing Our Humanity: How Domination and Partnership Shape Our Brains, Lives, and Future (Oxford University Press, 2019). Eisler examines the historical and cultural dynamics of partnership versus domination systems, highlighting how these models influence societies, gender roles, and technological development. Drawing on archaeological evidence, such as Marija Gimbutas’s work and DNA studies, she contrasts egalitarian prehistory with later hierarchical civilizations like ancient Athens. Eisler critiques modern structures that perpetuate violence, inequality, and trauma—often beginning in the home. She emphasizes the importance of whole-system thinking and highlights movements that have challenged domination throughout history. The core message is that peace and human flourishing depend on shifting from a culture of domination to one of partnership, starting with the family and education.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The opposite of patriarchy is not matriarchy. It is partnership. This is what we are increasingly learning from the study of prehistoric societies: that we need to connect the dots. We must assemble the larger picture. If a narrative is repeated often enough, it becomes more readily accessible to the mind. However, repetition does not distinguish between truth and falsehood. So, what are the myths we have been told about human prehistory—especially regarding relationships and gender roles? Is there a political utility to these myths? Or are they simply the result of mistaken interpretations? I think those are two essential questions.
Riane Eisler: These interpretations are indeed mistaken, but they serve a function: to sustain what I describe as a domination system. Consider the classic “caveman” cartoon: in one hand, the man holds a club—a weapon—and with the other, he drags a woman by the hair.
What message does this cartoon send—especially when shown to children long before their critical faculties have developed? It normalizes a worldview based on fear and violence (the club) and rigid male dominance enforced through violence, coercion. and cultural indoctrination. This is where the myth-making comes into play. It suggests that domination is natural and inevitable—that it has always been this way and always must be. However, the evidence is showing that this is not true.
For example, consider the Neolithic site of Çatalhöyük in present-day Turkey, which was inhabited from approximately 7100 BCE to 5700 BCE. Ian Hodder, a prominent Stanford archaeologist who directed excavations there for decades, has emphasized in multiple publications that the community exhibited signs of gender egalitarianism. In particular, grave goods, domestic architecture, and burial treatments do not show significant differentiation between males and females. In his article for Scientific American, Hodder argued that being born male or female in Çatalhöyük did not appear to determine social status.
Despite this, recent books and studies often omit these gender-related findings. Why? Because they lack the appropriate interpretive frame—the contrast between domination systems and partnership systems.
Suppose we fail to include childhood, family, and gender in our reconstructions of prehistory. In that case, we are left with an incomplete—indeed, distorted—picture. One might even call it a neutered prehistory because it leaves out fundamental aspects of human identity and relationships. Ironically, the caveman cartoon portrays these elements—especially gender relations—quite explicitly. However, modern archaeological narratives often avoid them.
Jacobsen: You are right about that. However, you indeed mentioned gender in the caveman cartoon. And then there are the kinds of biblical mythologies, like Adam and Eve, or popular North American cartoons where Adam has a leaf over his groin and Eve over her breasts. It is very telling.
Eisler: In my book on education, Tomorrow’s Children, a cartoon illustrates thinking outside the box. More and more people are beginning to do so—but often only in fragments, without applying the broader framework of partnership and domination.
The cartoon I reference depicts Spanish conquistadors emerging from the water. At the same time, a Native American stands on the shore and says, “What do you mean you found us? We found you coming out of the water.” That cartoon flips the colonial narrative. Indeed, we are beginning to reinterpret that history. Columbus’ actions included the extermination of Indigenous peoples—some of which was deliberate and premeditated. However, part of it also resulted from the spread of contagious diseases to which Native Americans had no immunity.
We are reevaluating the Columbus story, and he is no longer widely regarded as a hero in the same uncritical manner. However, the reinterpretation is happening in bits and pieces, and it has not yet been integrated into a larger framework. That is the key: we need to connect the dots and understand the overarching systems at play.
Jacobsen: Why are the dominant myths about human prehistory such a patchwork rather than being understood systematically—if I hear you correctly?
Eisler: Yes, that is right. We rarely critically examine dioramas in museums, for example. They overwhelmingly depict men—as if women, who give life, did not exist.
Jacobsen: My mother would have something to say about that.
Eisler: What would she say?
Jacobsen: That they are missing the women—and the children.
Eisler: Those gaps are mirrored in our familiar social categories: right and left, religious and secular, Eastern and Western, Northern and Southern, capitalist and socialist. What is missing? Women and children—the majority of humanity. There is something fundamentally wrong with that picture.
Jacobsen: You often reference different spectra—capitalist/communist, secular/religious, and so on. Are there some categories that, for you, do not work well as binary opposites or antipodes?
Eisler: There are binaries in nature… There is hot and cold, light and dark—but it is always a matter of degree. So, even in the binary of domination and partnership, we have to consider it as a spectrum. Societies orient along that continuum to varying degrees. Right now, we are experiencing a regression—a marked shift toward the domination system. We see this clearly in the renewed emphasis on rigid gender roles.
These roles leave no room for anything in between, even though people have always existed outside binary norms. How that variance is treated depends on the cultural context. However, returning to prehistory—I think we have not been asking the right questions. Strangely, I began doing so when I was a child. I remember reading in the Bible that “henceforth, woman shall be subordinate to man,” and I wondered: What was it like before the henceforth?
Jacobsen: That is a powerful question. You were asking it earlier.
Eisler: Yes—and no one wanted to talk about it. I also wondered why a woman would take advice from a snake. We generally do not do that. [Laughing] But it was not until I began my whole-systems research—which includes both history and prehistory—that I came to see that what came before the “henceforth” was a more partnership-oriented model of society. I also learned that the snake was even in historic times still associated with oracular prophecy; think of the Oracle of Delphi: it was a priestess, a “pythoness” working with pythons, with snakes. Or think of the figurines from Crete of women, priestesses in an oracular trance with snakes coiled around their arms. So in searching for wisdom, Eve would turn to a snake! We have to connect the dots! And this requires a whole-systems study of our history, including our prehistory and its partnership rather than domination direction.
However, we are not taught history this way. We are taught history through the lens of conquest—winners and losers, wars and battles. Memorizing the dates of all these conflicts becomes the focus.
Jacobsen: Do you see definite ebbs and flows—regionally or even globally—between the domination model and the partnership model? You mentioned that we are currently in a regression, but there was also a long period of progression toward partnership values. What is your perspective on the longer historical arc of this tension?
Eisler: The real tipping point in this tension did not come until around 3000 BCE, and we know this now from genetic studies. During the Indo-European invasions, a dramatic shift occurred in the DNA record—most notably, a near-total replacement of male DNA in certain regions. This indicates violent conquest.
That is when domination took hold. I have written about this, and my work also incorporates technological change. I have an article forthcoming in a book on achieving peace, edited by my co-author, anthropologist Douglas Fry, of Nurturing Our Humanity. In it, I argue that we must look not only at major technological phases—such as the transition from foraging to farming—but also at overlooked transitions, like the shift from foraging to herding.
This shift is significant because herding cultures developed in increasingly arid regions of the world where climate change has degraded pasturelands. These conditions led to more competitive, often violent, social systems—domination-oriented cultures. Herders, seeking new territory, invaded more settled farming communities. Eventually, some of these herders, such as the Yamnaya, adopted agriculture themselves—but they carried with them the domination model.
Jacobsen: So, climate stress, migration, and technological shifts all helped push societies along the spectrum of domination?
Eisler: We need to see these factors in an integrated way—not just as isolated historical phases, but as interconnected elements that shaped the systems we still live with today. Again, we only know this in bits and pieces. To connect the dots, you need whole-systems analysis.
You can now see the shift very clearly in recent DNA studies. Still, decades ago, archaeologist Marija Gimbutas, an expert in Indo-European studies, had already identified it. She described the transformation quite accurately, at least in what she referred to as the Balkans and “Old Europe,” where a domination society gradually supplanted a partnership-oriented civilization.
Some argue that force inevitably prevails. Which is actually not true, as we know, nonviolent movements have been very successful, as in India and Gandhi, for example. In any case, the problem with that reasoning is that we now stand at a unique moment in technological development. We have not only communication and transportation technologies that connect us but also technologies of destruction—biological warfare, nuclear weapons—that could annihilate us all in minutes.
So, domination and force are no longer adaptive, if they ever were, considering all the suffering and trauma they cause. Today they are dangerous—existentially so.
Jacobsen: Are there phases in prehistory—not necessarily tied to specific technologies—where we can track dominator and partnership systems in the same way that genetic evidence now allows us to trace population shifts, like with the Yamnaya?
Eisler: Yes. When the Yamnaya migrated into Europe, a dramatic rupture occurred. The destruction of earlier pottery traditions marked the end of older, more partnership-oriented cultures. There was a regression to cruder, less refined technology and social organization. Over time, the invaders absorbed and co-opted more advanced technologies, but now under male-dominated, hierarchical, violent systems—domination systems.
Now, let me be very clear: This is not about blaming men. There is nothing inherently wrong with men. What is deeply wrong is the domination system, which continues to push us toward an evolutionary dead end.
Men are often the ones forced to give their lives—because someone at the top wants more territory, more power. Look at Putin. However, it is not just a geopolitical issue. Men are also promised a kind of “payoff.” In exchange for loyalty to the domination social and economic hierarchy, they are encouraged to dominate women and children—within what the domination model treats as their “castle,” the militarized metaphor of the home.
We are seeing that pattern re-emerge in our current regression. There are other inflection points worth noting—points that we often overlook in our current educational and social frameworks. I believe that over the long term, the pen has been far more potent than the sword. Stories shape minds. That brings us right back to the myths.
Take the myths that blame Eve—or Pandora—for all of humanity’s suffering. It is absurd, truly. However, we have inherited these narratives. Myths that justify the domination of women, that treat women as property, as sexual objects, or simply as vessels for reproduction. That is what lies beneath many persistent gender stereotypes: the effort to reduce women to things, to tools.
Of course, women have been deeply traumatized by this. However, so have men. Because under dominator systems, men are taught to suppress much of their humanity. They are socialized into a narrow script, one that rewards dominance, aggression, and emotional repression. This is not a sustainable model for any of us.
I remember being in a park years ago and hearing a child wailing—crying—and then a man’s voice saying, “I am going to beat you until you stop crying. Boys do not cry.” That is the old “masculine” gender stereotype. It illustrates how these roles are enforced, often through violence and emotional repression. However, let us discuss how technology has shaped civilization—how, in some cases, it has fundamentally altered both partnership and domination systems.
Jacobsen: What about the cases where technological advancement caused major civilizational shifts—not just in external structures but also in social relations?
Eisler: Technology itself is values-neutral. What matters is how it is used. Take AI, for example—it all depends on how it is programmed. Yes, we should be concerned about becoming overly dependent on AI. But the real issue is what we are programming it for. If AI is programmed for domination, then yes, we should be highly concerned. However, if it is programmed for partnership—and it can be—it could be transformative. Unfortunately, most mainstream AI draws heavily from social media data, which reflects societies still shaped by systems of domination.
Again, that is not because people are bad. This is not about blame or shame. It is about recognizing that domination systems are trauma factories. They misallocate resources. In domination-based economies, there is often money for weapons and wars—but rarely for children, caregiving, or community well-being.
Like what we are seeing in the United States now—cutting social programs while military budgets continue to grow. Speaking as a Holocaust survivor, let me be clear: I am not advocating for unilateral disarmament. That would be dangerous in a world where regimes such as those in Iran, the Taliban in Afghanistan, Russia, China, and North Korea continue to operate within highly domination-oriented frameworks.
But we must recognize how distorted our priorities have become. These are not the priorities of most people. However, people have been so traumatized, so thoroughly conditioned, that they accept them.
Jacobsen: What are some practices from prehistory that reflect partnership versus domination models?
Eisler: A great example is alloparenting—a practice observed still today among many foraging societies, where caregiving is shared across the group. It means that the entire community—men, women, and older children—participates in raising the young.
The bond with the biological mother remains essential, of course, but the responsibility and the safety net extend beyond her. That kind of distributed caregiving system is a hallmark of partnership societies.
However, the bond—and the sense of security—comes from being surrounded by caring adults and older individuals. We see a shift from that model in societies like ancient Athens, which we have so often idealized. Athens was a very uneasy mix of partnership and domination.In reality, the vast majority of the population in Athens was disenfranchised. Women, and both male and female slaves, were not allowed to vote. Beyond that, the male head of household held the legal right to “expose” any infant he did not want to raise—essentially abandoning the child to die. However, the term was a linguistic softening.
“Good women” were confined to the women’s quarters and deprived of education. Socrates did highlight some of this, but only in fragments. He never connected these issues to the larger framework of domination that permeated Athenian society.
In my book, Sacred Pleasure, I include a chapter titled “The Reign of the Phallus,” which focuses on ancient Athens. It was not a society where most women had autonomy or education. The exceptions were women viewed as borderline courtesans—such as the hetairai—who had access to learning. In ancient Rome, poets like Ovid celebrated romantic partnerships, reflecting the human yearning for connection. However, that longing persisted despite domination systems, not because of them.
Domination systems systematically suppress empathy. They narrow our evolved capacity for compassion to the in-group only. Those outside the in-group—whether defined by gender, race, class, or tribe—are excluded. Often, the first “out-group” is female humanity.
Jacobsen: We have just about three minutes left. What do you consider the defining distinction between prehistory and recorded history?
Eisler: In essence, prehistory was characterized mainly by partnership-oriented societies. However, as domination systems emerged, we saw both resistance to change and full regressions into rigid domination hierarchies.
Remarkably, it is only in the last 300 years that we see mass movements directly challenging domination systems:
– The so-called “rights of man” contesting the divinely ordained right of kings.
– The abolitionist movement challenged the belief in the superiority of one race over another.
– The feminist movement questioned the supposed divine right of men to rule over women and children in the home.
– And the environmental movement challenges man’s conquest and domination over nature.
As I wrote in The Chalice and the Blade, these are all examples of a resurgence in partnership. However, today, we stand at a crossroads. The real struggle is not between right and left, or secular and religious, or East and West. Those are distractions.
The fundamental battle is between the partnership model and the domination model. We must recognize this, or we will remain caught in a cycle of emergency response—constantly putting out fires caused by domination systems—without ever addressing the deeper structural causes.
That is why our Summit, Peace Begins at Home, emphasizes strategy, not just tactics. Our core principle is that peace starts at home. That is foundational.
However, many prominent figures—even those who speak passionately about war, terrorism, and peace—do not address family violence. That is where the trauma begins.
Jacobsen: Riane, thank you again for your time today. I appreciate it.
Eisler: Yes, we covered much ground today—but that is good.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/12
Irina Tsukerman is a human rights and national security attorney based in New York and Connecticut. She earned her Bachelor of Arts in National and Intercultural Studies and Middle East Studies from Fordham University in 2006, followed by a Juris Doctor from Fordham University School of Law in 2009. She operates a boutique national security law practice. She serves as President of Scarab Rising, Inc., a media and security strategic advisory firm. Additionally, she is the Editor-in-Chief of The Washington Outsider, which focuses on foreign policy, geopolitics, security, and human rights. She is actively involved in several professional organizations, including the American Bar Association’s Energy, Environment, and Science and Technology Sections, where she serves as Program Vice Chair in the Oil and Gas Committee. She is also a member of the New York City Bar Association. She serves on the Middle East and North Africa Affairs Committee and affiliates with the Foreign and Comparative Law Committee. The U.S. House narrowly passed a Trump-aligned tax and spending bill, sparking controversy over its $4–5 trillion impact on the deficit, Medicaid cuts, and tax breaks skewed toward the wealthy. It includes expanded deportation funding and reduced safety nets. Simultaneously, Ukraine suffered its largest aerial assault amid withheld U.S. military aid. In Haiti, gangs control Port-au-Prince as U.S. policy shifts to block refugees. The international response remains limited, while local capacity crumbles under worsening humanitarian crises. This interview was conducted on July 1, 2025.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: All the sources here are Reuters, AP News, and the United Nations. So, straight from the downtown streets of Luxembourg City, we’re going to talk about the U.S. House of Representatives passing a Trump-aligned tax and spending reconciliation bill. House Republicans pushed it through by a narrow margin on July 4. How thin was the margin?
Irina Tsukerman: The final vote count was 219 to 213—a six-vote margin.
Jacobsen: That’s a narrow margin, all things considered. However, several members were absent so that the full count may have been slightly different.
Jacobsen: What was the reaction from the Democrats?
Tsukerman: It was pretty controversial. Essentially, Republican leadership managed to suppress dissent within their ranks. Representative Brian Fitzpatrick, a Republican from Pennsylvania, was the only Republican to vote with all Democrats against the procedural motion that brought the bill to the floor. Once it was on the floor, the Republicans had the votes to pass it. There is now an outcry over the fact that the bill would increase federal spending and the deficit.
Jacobsen: What else was going on at the same time?
Tsukerman: This happened as USAID underwent a significant reduction in scope, with some of its functions reassigned or defunded. A large portion of the freed-up funds is being redirected to finance tax cuts. Some middle-class groups are pleased, as it means less money will be taken from their pensions and salaries.
Jacobsen: What are the long-term effects?
Tsukerman: Many of these tax cuts are expected to fuel inflation. Combined with the increased spending and the ambiguity in parts of the legislation—it being a large bill pushed through quickly—many people are unsure of what exactly is in it. It is a complex piece of legislation, reportedly comprising 887 pages.
Jacobsen: Any highlights?
Tsukerman: Some notable provisions include increased funding for national defence and immigration enforcement, including deportations. Tax cuts are prioritized. According to Republican lawmakers, if this bill were not passed, many of the 2017 Trump-era tax cuts would begin expiring after December. This bill includes about $4.5 trillion in tax cuts.
The legislation would make the existing tax rates and brackets permanent. It would also temporarily introduce several new tax breaks promoted by Trump, such as exempting federal income tax on tips and overtime pay, and implementing new deductions, including interest on certain car loans and a $6,000 deduction for older adults earning up to $75,000 annually. It also raises the child tax credit to $2,000 per child, with the full credit extended to many lower-income families.
Jacobsen: There’s also something in the U.S. called SALT, which stands for State and Local Tax deduction. It refers to the cap on the amount of state and local taxes that individuals can deduct on their federal returns. Under the new proposal, the cap would quadruple to $40,000 for a period of five years. This provision is particularly relevant in high-tax states such as New York, New Jersey, and California. The House initially proposed that the increase last for ten years. Still, the final deal was a last-minute, eleventh-hour compromise.
Tsukerman: There are also various business-related tax cuts, including allowing companies to immediately write off 100% of the cost of equipment and research and development investments. The wealthiest households would see an average tax benefit of $24,000 per year. At the same time, the poorest groups would face an annual net cost of around $1,600 due to the combined effects of reduced assistance and regressive tax provisions.
Middle-income taxpayers would see modest relief, estimated between $500 $1,500 annually. While that might seem minor, these cuts have significant cumulative effects on the federal deficit. The individual benefit is small, but the overall budget impact is substantial.
Jacobsen: What’s in the bill regarding immigration and border policy?
Tsukerman: The bill allocates $350 billion for border and national security priorities. This includes $46 billion for operations along the U.S.-Mexico border and $45 billion to fund 100,000 migrant detention beds. This is part of Trump’s ongoing effort to carry out what he has described as the largest mass deportation operation in U.S. history.
The funding would also cover the hiring of 10,000 new Immigration and Customs Enforcement officers, each receiving a $10,000 signing bonus. There would also be a surge in hiring for Border Patrol agents. The administration’s stated goal is to deport up to one million people per year.
Additionally, the Secretary of Homeland Security would receive a $10 billion grant fund to support states participating in federal immigration enforcement operations. Immigrants would face new fees, including added costs when applying for asylum protection, making the asylum process more financially burdensome.
Jacobsen: And on the defence front?
Tsukerman: Defence spending includes funding for shipbuilding, munitions systems, and quality-of-life improvements for service members. Notably, $25 billion is allocated to the Golden Dawn missile defence system. In a surprising twist, the Department of Defence would also receive $1 billion specifically for border security, effectively formalizing the military’s involvement in border operations, at least during the current administration.
Much of the funding comes from cuts to Medicaid and other domestic assistance programs, including food aid for low-income individuals. These reallocations are central to the bill’s fiscal strategy and have drawn significant criticism from policy analysts and advocacy groups.
They’re essentially trying to cut down safety net programs, including those that support pregnant women, people with disabilities, and children. There is also a stated effort to crack down on waste, fraud, and abuse.
The bill includes an 80-hour-per-month work requirement for adults receiving Medicaid and SNAP (formerly known as food stamps), including individuals up to age 65. Even parents of children aged 14 and older would have to meet these work requirements. There’s also a proposal to introduce co-payments for Medicaid patients—Medicaid being the U.S. government’s public health insurance program for low-income Americans.
Currently, over 71 million people in the U.S. are enrolled in Medicaid, which was significantly expanded under the Affordable Care Act during the Obama administration. According to policy analysts, if the bill passes in full and is implemented as written, an estimated 11.8 million Americans could lose Medicaid coverage by 2034. Additionally, around 3 million people could become ineligible for SNAP benefits.
Yes, and unpacking all the provisions will take time. The bill spans 887 pages, and those are just some of the significant elements being debated and drawing public backlash. Many advocacy groups are outraged, especially over cuts to women’s health care and benefits for vulnerable populations. Republicans argue that the current social programs are too expensive and that individuals who could work are receiving benefits that could be better allocated elsewhere. They see it as a matter of accountability and efficiency.
Jacobsen: But the bill has passed?
Tsukerman: Yes, it passed. The national deficit is projected to grow significantly as a result. While individual or family-level benefits—especially for middle-income earners—are small, the overall government spending is massive. This imbalance is why figures like Elon Musk and others in his camp have been vocal in their opposition to this measure.
The cost of the bill, in terms of federal spending, outweighs the personal financial gains it offers. Even if one supports boosting middle-class income, the benefits are so minimal compared to the overall expenditure that many question whether the structure is justifiable.
Jacobsen: And now some international news—Russia? Russia launched the largest missile and drone barrage on Kyiv since the start of the full-scale invasion. I recall visiting Ukraine during a previous strike, which at the time was considered massive; however, this one exceeded that by about 40%.
In just one hour, Russia launched 550 drones and missiles across Ukraine in what has been called the largest aerial assault in the world to date. The capital, Kyiv, was the primary target. Was this linked to U.S. actions?
Tsukerman: Yes. This is not a coincidence. It followed the Pentagon’s decision to withhold advanced weapons systems from Ukraine, including the Patriot missile defence systems. These would have significantly improved Ukraine’s air defence capabilities.
Congress had already allocated $4 billion to Ukraine, which was to include some Patriot systems. Ukraine even offered to purchase the systems at full cost. However, the Trump administration has refused to release them.
The batteries are currently stockpiled in Poland and were supposed to be transferred to Ukraine. But they were frozen—without warning—by the U.S. Secretary of Defence. Shockingly, this decision was made without coordination with President Trump, Congress, NATO, or even U.S. allies.
No coordination at all. Even the NATO Secretary-General was left out of the loop. Not only did the U.S. fail to fulfill its legal obligations under congressional appropriation, but it also failed to hold a coordinating meeting or offer any short-term alternative to Ukraine.
When asked, a Pentagon spokesperson claimed the U.S. is not obligated to provide weapons globally. However, suppose Congress designates funding for specific foreign assistance, such as military aid. In that case, the executive branch is legally required to follow through. It’s not just a policy issue; it’s a constitutional one.
The result? Putin is likely gloating. Russian media is celebrating. Ukraine is left under-equipped during the most aggressive aerial assault in the war so far.
Jacobsen: Ukraine is under a barrage of attacks, and the latest strike on Kyiv is not the first of its kind. In the past few days, there have also been multiple attacks on other cities across Ukraine.
Tsukerman: Trump claims to be surprised by Putin’s aggression, yet he has done nothing substantial in response. He still has not implemented the new sanctions he promised to review over two months ago—a process that was initially expected to take just two weeks. While he did renew some of the banking sanctions imposed initially under the Biden administration, these are not new measures; they maintain existing restrictions.
Moreover, Trump’s apparent tacit approval of Texas Governor Abbott’s unilateral freeze on U.S. weapons shipments to Ukraine is being interpreted as a green light by Russia to escalate its military operations. And that is precisely what happened.
Today alone, over 500 drone and missile attacks were launched on Kyiv. Images from the ground show fires raging across civilian areas. This is a deliberate assault on civilian infrastructure, not just military targets. It has severely strained Ukraine’s air defence capabilities.
Without the additional Patriot missile systems previously authorized by Congress but now withheld, more civilians are at risk of death and suffering. This failure to deliver defence support—and to coordinate with allies—has real, devastating consequences.
Jacobsen: Shifting to the Western Hemisphere—what is happening in Haiti? Haitian gangs have seized control of large parts of the capital, Port-au-Prince. Violence and lawlessness are worsening. According to United Nations experts, 1.3 million people have been displaced. That figure puts Haiti’s crisis on par with major global conflict zones.
Tsukerman: Haiti has long struggled with political instability and has faced numerous failed international interventions. The current trajectory is deteriorating rapidly. The Trump administration has been granted authority to resume deportations of Haitian refugees, and that is precisely what is happening now. These individuals are being expelled without protections or special status.
During past election cycles, there were wild claims—like Haitian refugees supposedly eating cats and dogs in places like Ohio—none of which were ever substantiated. Those narratives disappeared after the election, but the legal hardships for Haitian asylum seekers have persisted.
The U.S. has effectively disengaged from Haiti. Kenya has deployed a limited number of forces. Still, they are severely underprepared for the scale of chaos on the ground. Haitian law enforcement and government officials are essentially in retreat.
Other nations have offered assistance, including El Salvador, which has experience in dealing with gang violence. While El Salvador has been relatively effective in restoring internal control within its borders, it remains unclear how much support it can offer Haiti, given its domestic challenges.
Therefore, they cannot single-handedly bring everything to a halt. It would take a very significant force to subdue all of these gangs and secure the country from the rampaging groups that are essentially driving people out and looting everything within. I do not see the U.S. intervening decisively at this point.
The U.S. response appears to be focused on shielding itself from the fallout by essentially blocking entry from Haiti. Haiti may now be among the countries affected by an extended travel ban that’s being enforced due to the worsening security situation. That includes not just regular migrants but also people fleeing what are effectively war-like conditions.
I also do not see any serious multinational task forces being deployed in the Caribbean. Latin American nations, which might be best positioned politically to engage, are either too under-resourced—like Venezuela—or not considered reliable or neutral enough to lead such an operation.
To conclude, there is a shortage of private security forces or mercenaries that might intervene. I do not think Haitians have the internal resources to solve this themselves, and outside help does not appear to be materializing.
Jacobsen: That was wonderful. I’ll see you next week.
Tsukerman: Thank you. Have a great rest of your trip.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/11
Attorney Jie Shi, representing Fortune 500 U.S. retailers, discusses the significant impact of new U.S. customs rules, including DHL’s temporary suspension of high-value B2C shipments and tightened de minimis enforcement. She outlines how these changes affect small businesses, global supply chains, and consumers, leading to delays, higher costs, and legal risks. Shi explains how shifting trade policies and post-pandemic disruptions transform contract practices and logistics planning. She urges small businesses to stay informed, prioritize documentation, and observe industry strategies. Policymakers, she argues, must balance enforcement with economic stability to avoid unintended harm to consumers and small enterprises.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here with Jie Shi. Let me begin with a brief introduction. Jie is an attorney representing Fortune 500 U.S. retailers in complex maritime disputes and global shipping matters. She holds bar admissions in both China and the United States. Her work focuses on high-stakes issues at the intersection of international trade and law.
She has recently addressed the legal implications of record freight rate surges during the COVID-19 pandemic, potential Shipping Act violations, and broader global supply chain challenges. She closely follows developments regarding U.S. tariffs, the de minimis exemption, and regulatory trends in maritime commerce. So, how will the new U.S. customs rules affect cross-border e-commerce?
Jie Shi: The new rules are significant. DHL Express recently temporarily suspended business-to-consumer shipments over $800 into the U.S. starting April 21, in response to U.S. Customs and Border Protection’s requirements for formal entry processing. These changes increase compliance burdens for high-value shipments.
During the pandemic, we saw how fragile and interconnected the global supply chain is. A disruption at any point in that network, such as at ports or customs clearance, can ripple through the entire system. Delays, inventory shortages, and cost increases become inevitable.
If carriers are unable or unwilling to handle specific shipments due to compliance requirements, it could mean fewer goods reaching the U.S. market. Given typical transit times of four to six weeks for ocean freight, the downstream effects include port slowdowns, potential job losses in logistics sectors, and higher consumer prices.
Even now, major shipping lines are cancelling sailings—this week, blank sailings accounted for over 40% of some trans-Pacific routes—signalling a reduction in overall shipping capacity. So, while we may not feel the immediate impact, the effects are likely to become visible soon.
Jacobsen: What about the impact on small businesses that rely on international shipping?
Shi: Small businesses are particularly vulnerable. Many rely on platforms like Temu or AliExpress to reach U.S. customers. These companies often take advantage of the de minimis provision, which allows goods under $800 in value to enter the U.S. duty-free with minimal paperwork.
If that threshold is lowered, or if enforcement tightens—especially targeting Chinese-origin shipments—these businesses will face higher duties, longer customs processing, and more paperwork. For small sellers operating on thin margins, these added costs may not be sustainable.
Initially, DHL announced the pause due to these challenges, although they later resumed service after discussions with U.S. authorities. But uncertainty remains. If enforcement continues to tighten, we may see more carriers limit services, disproportionately affecting small business sellers.
Jacobsen: What is the reasoning behind lowering the de minimis threshold or ending exemptions for some countries?
Shi: U.S. lawmakers and trade officials argue that the de minimis exemption is being exploited, particularly by Chinese e-commerce exporters. There’s concern that it gives an unfair competitive advantage and enables duty evasion or the import of unsafe or counterfeit goods.
The push to revise de minimis thresholds is part of a broader trade policy shift, focused on economic security, enforcement of fair trade practices, and tightening oversight on direct-to-consumer imports. While the intent is to level the playing field for U.S. retailers and manufacturers, the consequences are far-reaching and complex, especially for cross-border e-commerce.
I am not sure it’s entirely fair to describe the de minimis exemption as a loophole. The provision exists to facilitate trade, reduce customs friction, and allow consumers to receive goods at lower prices. In cross-border e-commerce, sellers and buyers rely on these streamlined systems to function efficiently.
That said, the main argument from U.S. lawmakers is that the de minimis rule is being exploited, particularly by companies shipping directly from China, and that tightening the rule is necessary to protect national economic interests. However, this shift also puts significant pressure on small businesses in the United States.
With tariffs in place, it is unclear how those businesses can absorb the additional costs. Even large corporations are reluctant to take on that burden—they need liquidity and operate under tighter margins. Due to this uncertainty, planning has become very difficult.
Jacobsen: How will these changes affect broader aspects of global supply chains, such as delays, disruptions, inventory management, and delivery timelines?
Shi: These changes will impact all of that. Many parties are involved in the supply chain: third-party logistics providers, ocean carriers, freight forwarders, shippers, vendors, suppliers, and manufacturers at origin, as well as warehouses and distribution centers at U.S. ports.
There is now additional time and cost related to U.S. customs compliance. One emerging trend is that some suppliers may try to reroute their cargo through third countries before sending it to the United States, attempting to avoid the higher tariffs on Chinese-origin goods.
However, U.S. Customs and Border Protection is becoming increasingly vigilant about such transshipment tactics. If a shipment is misdeclared—say, it falsely states origin as Thailand but originated in China—it may be flagged. That could result in the entire container being rejected, returned, or subject to additional inspection and penalties. This creates further delays and cost burdens in the whole supply chain. Every link in that chain feels the strain, and every stakeholder pays more.
Jacobsen: What about consumers? Under these new customs regulations, what can they expect in terms of delivery timelines, pricing of imported goods, and delays?
Shi: Consumers are already beginning to feel the effects. There are more delays. For example, many U.S. consumers buy goods from platforms like Temu, which is now shifting its business model in response to the tightening customs environment.
Temu has started displaying estimated tariffs and duties at checkout. In some cases, those fees exceed the price of the goods themselves. So consumers may pay double or even triple what they expected. This adds up quickly for everyday shoppers and reduces the appeal of ordering internationally.
Some consumers may switch platforms or stop ordering from abroad altogether. However, these developments could be devastating for small businesses that depend on platforms like Temu—they could lose customers and struggle to sustain their operations.
Jacobsen: Will specific industries, such as fashion or electronics, be impacted more than others?
Shi: Yes. Industries like fast fashion and consumer electronics depend highly on low-margin, high-volume cross-border shipping. They also tend to source heavily from China and Southeast Asia. Any increase in compliance burdens or tariffs hits these sectors hard.
These businesses are already under pressure from shifting consumer demand, logistics disruptions, and regulatory changes. Adding customs complications and unpredictable tariffs makes their operational planning even more difficult.
From my experience representing major U.S. retailers, I’ve learned they heavily rely on goods manufactured in China. For fashion retailers in particular—companies like Target, for example—these tariffs are hitting hard. That’s why many are now renegotiating contracts with Chinese suppliers. In some cases, suppliers are willing to absorb part of the tariff cost to keep shipments flowing, but the challenge is the unpredictability of U.S. trade policy. You never know if the current administration might change direction the next day.
Jacobsen: How can small businesses mitigate these ongoing and upcoming challenges? Any strategies they can consider?
Shi: For small businesses, it depends on their position in the supply chain. If both the buyer and seller are small businesses, there may be room to renegotiate terms and share costs. However, if a small business works with a large platform or carrier, it typically has little leverage.
Take Temu, for example. They recently shifted their business model to what’s a “semi-managed” system. Under this model, instead of Temu handling fulfillment, merchants are now responsible for shipping the products directly to the consumer’s country. That change increases the burden on small businesses, especially with new tariffs and customs regulations.
Many of these businesses have little to do now besides waiting and seeing how policies evolve. They cannot easily reroute cargo through other countries, especially given the heightened scrutiny from U.S. Customs aimed at preventing transshipment fraud.
Jacobsen: Will there be long-term effects on international trade relations?
Shi: Absolutely. We are still recovering from the damage to the global supply chain caused by the COVID-19 pandemic. And now it’s 2025—many disruptions are still with us. While the full ramifications of current tariff policies are hard to predict, they are shifting global trade dynamics.
Before the pandemic, ocean carriers had minimal pricing power, and large retailers controlled most of the negotiations. During the pandemic, that flipped. Shipping demand surged, and carriers gained the upper hand. That forced many retailers to rethink logistics and invest more in third-party support to stabilize their supply chains.
From a legal perspective, this shift has also changed contracting behaviour. Before the pandemic, many companies relied on long-standing contracts with standard terms. During the crisis, some rushed into agreements without comprehensively documenting terms, which led to a wave of post-pandemic litigation. Now, parties are far more cautious—conducting detailed document reviews, revising contract language, and being much more specific in allocating obligations and risks.
If the tariff regime remains in place, we can expect that trend to continue. Legal teams advise businesses to create thorough paper trails, clearly document negotiations, and preserve every communication. During such chaotic times, it can be tough to resolve disputes later on if you do not have records.
Jacobsen: How can policymakers balance enforcing trade rules and protecting the interests of consumers and small businesses?
Shi: It’s a delicate balance. On one hand, there is legitimate concern about trade compliance, unfair competition, and national security. On the other hand, overly aggressive enforcement, especially in ways that target low-value shipments, can inadvertently hurt small businesses and consumers the most.
Policymakers need to take a nuanced approach. That might include targeted enforcement instead of blanket restrictions, offering transitional support to small businesses affected by sudden rule changes, and fostering more dialogue between regulators, logistics providers, and the small business community. There has to be a middle ground that ensures compliance without stifling entrepreneurship or burdening end consumers with excessive costs.
Jacobsen: Can you talk a little bit more about that? Specifically, how can policymakers focus on trade enforcement while also addressing the risk mitigation needs of consumers and small businesses? Because consumers will likely face higher costs, small companies will likely deal with longer delivery times and stock issues.
Shi: It’s essential for policymakers to take a forward-looking approach. During the pandemic, I observed that many policymakers were caught off guard, not out of negligence but simply because the situation evolved so rapidly. Once the crisis unfolded, they tried to secure any cargo they could, often agreeing to pay inflated prices to get essential goods into the country.
But those efforts had costs. Port congestion worsened, logistics systems broke down, and companies couldn’t get products on the shelves quickly. Many large businesses even went bankrupt because of those disruptions.
For small businesses, the key lesson is to plan and stay informed about industry developments. Platforms like Temu have introduced new models to support small businesses during turbulent times. They are continuing to evolve those models, though I would need to review the specifics.
The worst-case scenario for a small business is cargo stuck at the origin with no plan for resolution. That can lead to abandoned shipments and significant financial loss. To minimize risk, small businesses should observe how larger companies adapt and consider applying similar strategies.
Whatever direction they choose, small businesses must prioritize documentation. From a legal and compliance standpoint, keeping everything in writing is essential. U.S. Customs is now asking for more detailed documentation and records. Before the current tariff environment, some importers may have simplified paperwork, not out of bad faith, but to streamline the process. Today, that approach is risky.
In the current climate, where timing and cost efficiency are everything, it’s critical to have a paper trail. For example, if you’re preparing for the holiday season, you must ensure that goods arrive on time and are stocked on shelves. For small business owners, being proactive about compliance and documentation can make the difference between surviving and failing in this environment.
Jacobsen: That’s incredibly helpful. I’ve asked for everything I need for today. Thank you for your time, Jie—I appreciate it.
Shi: Oh, thank you so much. Yes, my focus is usually on the legal side of these issues, so I had to think through some of your questions from a policy perspective. But I appreciate the thoughtful conversation.
Jacobsen: You’re very welcome.
Shi: Thank you so much. Have a great day.
Jacobsen: You too. Bye-bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/12
Seyfi Tomar, Vice President of EBS Global, discusses his firm’s commitment to sustainable construction in Ukraine. Recently, EBS secured office space in Kyiv, initiated company registration, and engaged in partnerships. Tomar highlights Canada-Ukraine trade opportunities, emphasizing prefabricated steel systems and AI-driven construction. He notes challenges like tariffs but sees automation reducing labor needs. Tomar praises Ukrainian resilience, contrasts global construction practices, and stresses the role of international institutions. He anticipates AI and robotics transforming construction, shifting human roles to software development. Future Canadian leadership, he suggests, should prioritize economic diversification and strengthening global trade relationships.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So today, we’re here with Seyfi Tomar.
He is the Vice President of EBS Global, a Canadian construction firm focused on creating durable and sustainable structures, from hospitals and schools to mid-rise buildings, emphasizing cost efficiency and environmental responsibility. Seyfi passionately advocates for prefabricated steel systems, customizing designs to reflect local culture while delivering eco-friendly solutions.
As a key sponsor of the Rebuild Ukraine Initiative, Seyfi spearheads efforts to restore infrastructure in war-torn regions, blending Canadian expertise with international collaboration. His approach combines advanced technologies, including recycled galvanized steel, to address housing shortages and infrastructure demands. Despite challenges such as securing funding from organizations like the European Bank for Reconstruction and Development (EBRD) and Export Development Canada (EDC), Seyfi remains committed to scaling sustainable solutions while prioritizing speed, affordability, and cultural integrity.
Early projects include rebuilding Bakhmut, emphasizing innovation and resilience in the face of immense challenges. Thank you so much for joining me again today, Seyfi. I appreciate it.
Seyfi Tomar: Thank you, Scott. Thank you for inviting me.
Jacobsen: You’re welcome.
There have been some updates since the last interview for International Policy Digest. This interview is conducted on March 3 and published much later. Some updates we are looking at involve company registration, lease agreements, and on-the-ground operations. You have recently travelled or are currently travelling. So, what are the immediate logistical hurdles regarding lease agreements and company registration?
Tomar: We have overcome those hurdles. This is my third visit to Ukraine since the war began. I was also here before the war. Today, we secured our office. We signed a letter of intent, and the lease agreement will be finalized in the morning.
It was not difficult. The landlords were cooperative and understanding of our situation, particularly since we have closed all operations in Turkey. Previously, we specialized in constructing high-rises and other large-scale projects in Turkey. Still, now we are transitioning all operations and personnel to Kyiv as our central hub before expanding to other parts of Ukraine as part of the Rebuild Ukraine effort.
We have already initiated discussions with our legal advisors in Kyiv. Tomorrow, we will formally begin the company registration process. This includes registering:
- Our general contracting division (part of Van Horn)
- Our manufacturing facilities under EBS Global
- Our EU consulting division, Planet Turkey
These registrations will be officially launched tomorrow.
We will then focus on setting up our office space and acquiring furniture and other essentials. We have already hired a Ukrainian director, who will oversee operations full-time. Our Ukrainian partners have assisted with logistics, including securing office space, registering employees, and handling administrative processes.
Regarding banking operations, we expect that process to be completed within two weeks, as we first need to finalize our company registrations before initiating fund transfers.
We are fully engaged in these efforts, and progress is steady.
Tomar: On the same note, I have had meetings with the Canadian Embassy since I arrived here. They have been extremely helpful, as I expected. From the very first day, they have worked hard and remained accessible. They are available and always willing to assist whenever I need to reach them.
They invited us to the embassy today, where we had a very productive meeting. They provided us with all the data and information we needed. As we have done so far, we will continue to stay in close contact with them.
We will keep them informed and work alongside them. They are the best resource for scrutinizing Ukrainian companies, evaluating tendering processes, and obtaining reliable information. They have been great resources and valuable allies in our work.
Beyond the Canadian Embassy, we have also met with several major Ukrainian companies. We have tentatively agreed on upcoming joint ventures with some of them, though these discussions are still in their preliminary stages. We will continue meeting with them over the next few days until Friday. If additional discussions are necessary, I will return.
We are excited to contribute to Ukraine’s reconstruction efforts. Being here allows us to support the Ukrainian economy while diversifying the Canadian economy, particularly in light of the 25% tariffs we face. Who knows what changes might come next? This is just one aspect, and we encourage others in Canada to explore their strengths in different markets.
For too long, we have been overly dependent on the U.S. Diversifying trade and investments will strengthen the Canadian economy.
Jacobsen: When it comes to construction, there is a need for fire-resistant and more durable materials. What about sourcing materials from within Ukraine? In doing so, wouldn’t that bolster the construction economy and the material sourcing and manufacturing industries within Ukraine?
Tomar: Yes. For prefabricated metal production, all we need are coils. Our machines, including mobile prefabricated metal systems factories, are already in place. Currently, we have them in Barrie, Ontario, where they are stored in our yard. We may move a few mobile factories to Ukraine. If demand increases, we can purchase additional machines to scale up production.
We are analyzing the global market for galvanized coils. We have previously sourced them from Canada’s local market, but we will now compare prices from Canada, Turkey, Egypt, and India and choose the most feasible option.
Jacobsen: What about local zoning laws and building permits in Ukraine? Does the war affect these processes, or are they expedited?
Tomar: We have not encountered any issues so far. The Ukrainian authorities handle the planning and approval processes, and everything has proceeded smoothly within their established framework.
I do not foresee any issues because, on my previous visit, I have a four-hour meeting with the Director of the Kyiv National University of Construction and Architecture and the Head of the Veteran Institute, Artem. If any issues arise, we will get their assistance. Therefore, I do not anticipate any problems regarding zoning.
What about integrating subcontractors and suppliers to streamline the supply chain, ensuring a seamless process from sourcing materials to manufacturing and construction?
We are currently in the pricing phase for the projects we are securing. As a general contractor or through joint ventures, we are committed to using our manufactured products. We have not subcontracted our materials to third-party builders or undertaken projects for them. At present, our priority is to manage construction for ourselves.
However, if a construction company from Finland, Switzerland or Denmark is interested in collaborating with us, we are open to it. We welcome partnerships with any reliable company, regardless of their country of origin. However, we must conduct due diligence and thoroughly vet their credibility. We have no objections to working with other builders and general contractors.
Regarding the tariffs you mentioned, we will rapidly revise our free trade agreements. Minister of International Trade, Export Promotion, Small Business, and Economic Development Mary Ng works diligently. What types of free trade agreements would be most beneficial for your test projects? Whether the 25% tariff takes effect tomorrow or not, it is crucial to consider its impact on the Canadian economy and trade policy.
We are currently reshaping and diversifying our economy, and Minister Ng has been working extensively over the past few months. Similarly, Minister of Foreign Affairs Mélanie Joly has been actively signing new free trade agreements with as many countries as possible. If I recall correctly, Canada now has free trade agreements with over 50 countries, covering approximately two-thirds of the global GDP.
These agreements strengthen Canadian businesses because, as a multicultural nation, we have vast global connections. Many communities in Canada have ties to their countries of origin, enabling the creation of new import and export relationships. This is precisely what we have done with Turkey. Currently, our primary focus is Ukraine. Other Canadian construction firms or businesses may establish trade relations with their respective ancestral homelands. This approach will help mitigate the impact of the 25% tariff in Canada. Any negative effects will be short-term; in the long run, we will recover and reshape our economy sustainably and resiliently. That is my belief.
Jacobsen: What financial and legal guarantees do Canadian companies require to secure land leases or property reconstruction projects in Ukraine? How does the bilateral or binational aspect of this arrangement function?
Tomar: We have not encountered such issues because our company has operated for 53 years. We have a proven track record of completing projects in Canada and Turkey. Our financial stability and credibility are well established, as demonstrated by the six subdivisions we are developing in Canada. We are neither a new company in Canada nor Turkey. Our strength comes from our history and the projects we have completed over time.
We have built airports, hospitals, schools, women’s shelters, shopping malls, and numerous high-rise buildings in Canada and Turkey. We have no difficulty securing projects because of our extensive experience and financial stability. Additionally, we do not seek bank loans. Our primary objective is to obtain government contracts in Ukraine or develop our projects within the country.
Jacobsen: Aside from Minister Mary Ng or Minister Mélanie Joly signing new contracts and looking for alternative trade agreements to bypass the 25% tariffs imposed by the Trump administration in the United States, what about emerging trade agreements or economic partnerships between Canada and Ukraine? Are there any new contracts or deals that could accelerate investment in infrastructure projects, such as those led by EBS Global in Ukraine? If we set aside the tariffs and the efforts by Ministers Ng and Joly to mitigate them, what about emerging economic partnerships or trade agreements with Ukraine or neighbouring countries? Are there any agreements that could benefit EBS Global, Canada, and Turkey directly by accelerating investment and expediting reconstruction projects?
Tomar: All these initiatives started before Trump was re-elected. We had already begun the process. To accelerate our work, the Canadian government could make Export Development Canada (EDC) and other financial entities more useful by allocating more resources to assist Canadian companies facing funding challenges or other issues.
Another solution is to restructure how aid is distributed. Funds could be channelled through Canadian companies instead of directly providing financial assistance to Ukrainian ministries. That could be a more effective approach.
For example, if the military requires modular housing or other infrastructure, rather than distributing aid directly, it could allocate those funds to Canadian companies—including us or any other Canadian firms interested in working in Ukraine. There are many competitors in this space. If a company like Aecon wanted to construct a major hydroelectric dam, aid funds could be allocated to them as part of the support package. Similarly, they could collaborate with us if the military needs geodesic domes or modular housing.
That approach would accelerate reconstruction efforts while ensuring Canadian taxpayers see a return on investment through the aid provided.
Jacobsen: Are there unique taxation structures or investment incentives associated with these projects, particularly when registering and operating in another country while maintaining a bilateral business model?
Tomar: I don’t have much information on that. It’s not within my scope. That falls under a different department within our company, and I am not directly involved. My role is as Vice President of Business Development, but I do not handle taxation matters. I am not familiar with the specific details of how that works.
Jacobsen: To give people an idea of the scale of the construction industry, it is a massive business. In British Columbia, where I am located, long-standing Italian Roman Catholic families—such as the Bosas—own some of the largest construction firms in Downtown Vancouver.
In terms of context regarding EBS Global, your company has been around for two years. When you say you will reconstruct Bakhmut, how much money should people consider when considering the cost of rebuilding an entire city?
Tomar: To clarify, we are in a preliminary agreement to reconstruct a town named “Steel Bakhmut” in a different region. It has a population of approximately 3,500 people. The budget for this project is estimated at over 100 million USD.
So that’s one project, and we are also working on other projects. We are budgeting for additional projects, and that is where we currently stand. Right now, 13% of Ukrainian housing has been damaged due to the war, in addition to the aged properties that need to be rebuilt. If a ceasefire takes effect, displaced Ukrainians will return, increasing demand. The housing demand in Ukraine is enormous.
It is a massive undertaking—far greater than the housing crisis in Canada. Ukraine needs to rebuild its homes, hospitals, and schools. The total estimated cost for rebuilding Ukraine is approximately $500 billion. Still, I am unsure what percentage is allocated specifically for housing. However, it is certainly a significant portion.
Given that many builders in Ontario and British Columbia are struggling due to the housing market slowdown and declining buyer confidence, the Canadian government might consider studying the potential for redirecting them to projects in Ukraine. I do not know if that would be feasible, but it is worth analyzing.
Jacobsen: One topic we briefly touched on in our last interview, around the time of the Rebuild Ukraine conference in Toronto, was the integration of automation with human labour. Machines, if well-maintained, can operate 24/7. At the same time, under labour protection laws, human workers typically work 40-hour weeks with eight-hour shifts over five days. Any additional work requires overtime pay.
Are there incentive structures to encourage workers to take on longer hours? Additionally, how much automation is being implemented to accelerate production speed? If you compare a typical building timeline to an accelerated construction model, what kind of time reduction are we looking at?
Tomar: Accelerating construction is based on off-site construction, which involves integrating automation. We have been building the same way for over a hundred years. Still, companies in the U.S. and Canada are adopting new technologies that will save millions of work hours and significantly reduce costs, leading to faster housing development.
Our system produces non-combustible, earthquake-resistant houses. I do not have an exact figure for how much time this process will save. Still, we can significantly speed up production by implementing three shifts that run 24 hours a day and employing Ukrainian veterans who primarily oversee machine operations.
Highly skilled labour is not required for these roles, contributing to faster, more affordable, and attainable housing solutions. That is the direction we are moving toward.
Jacobsen: If someone is interested in getting into your line of work, especially given the increasing demand, what qualities are necessary? Additionally, what skills, while not essential, would be beneficial for building partnerships, driving business development, and advancing in this industry?
Tomar: Partnering with local companies is always beneficial, and that is what we are prioritizing now. Previously, we were mostly focused on handling projects independently. Still, we have been meeting with and negotiating partnerships with local companies over the last few days. They bring valuable expertise, and collaboration will accelerate reconstruction efforts.
They might specialize in one area, while we have our strength in automation and building higher-quality housing. Regarding workforce qualifications, workers in our manufacturing process do not need to be highly skilled. However, we require skilled workers for on-site assembly, though not in large numbers. We have those resources and the necessary workforce.
In traditional construction methods, you typically need five to ten times more workers than we do. Building the same house on-site using conventional methods would take significantly longer and require more workforce.
Jacobsen: What areas do you see need further efficiency improvements? What would be the next step at the cutting edge of construction technology?
Tomar: That could involve AI. We have not implemented AI extensively but are currently exploring its potential. We are researching AI applications in different countries and evaluating how to integrate them into our processes.
AI could optimize material usage, workforce efficiency, and assembly methods, making construction even faster and more cost-effective. Another possibility is further advancing off-site customized home assembly rather than traditional on-site construction. However, given current transportation, logistics, and highway infrastructure limitations, this is not yet a feasible solution, but we are studying it.
Jacobsen: Let’s give a contrast effect for perception. You have experience in Turkey, Canada, and Ukraine. How do each country’s cultural and business environments help or hinder construction, efficiency, materials, and processes? What are the advantages and disadvantages?
Tomar: Every country has its pros and cons.
Once we secure a project in Canada, the approval process takes a long time. Zoning, permitting, and regulatory approvals can take years before construction begins. For example, we tendered a hospital this year, and even though there is a commitment to start soon, it could still take years before actual construction begins.
The process in Turkey moves much faster, but you must be more cautious about business practices. The system is not as transparent, so you must be careful in negotiations and contracts.
Ukraine presents similar challenges. That is why we work closely with Canadian embassies when operating abroad. We consult them and seek advice from international consulting firms before making major business decisions.
Jacobsen: Do you think that if Canada or Turkey were in a wartime scenario, they would respond in the same way as Ukrainians—beginning reconstruction efforts immediately and continuing them even during active bombings?
Tomar: I don’t believe so. But I deeply admire Ukrainians. They are incredibly brave and composed. Everyone remains focused on living their daily lives without significant change, even though they experience drone and missile alerts every day. It amazes me.
I am truly impressed with how they continue rebuilding. It is admirable. I admire their resilience and their way of life. It is inspiring.
Jacobsen: When you considered expanding your business, developing partnerships, and growing your construction efforts, you could have done more in Turkey or Canada. What made Ukraine the natural choice for your expansion, particularly since, during wartime, much of your work has been pre-construction?
Tomar: Why did we choose Ukraine? That’s a good question.
First, there is an obvious need. There is a pragmatic aspect to it—Ukraine requires extensive reconstruction. But beyond that, there is a moral dimension. We see the need, and we want to help.
There is also an emotional connection. We want to contribute to our Ukrainian friends. Over the past ten years, I have developed strong relationships with my Ukrainian colleagues through my involvement with FIABCI, the International Real Estate Federation affiliated with the United Nations. These connections were a major factor in our decision.
When we visited Ukraine and saw the situation firsthand, we knew we had made the right choice to expand here.
Jacobsen: In the modern era, we are experiencing unprecedented international networking. Over the last eighty years, particularly since World War II, global interconnectedness has grown exponentially—not only through trade and the passage of traditional ideas such as religion but also through the rapid exchange of new ideas, information technology, communications, culture, media, and entertainment.
Institutions like the United Nations, the World Trade Organization, and other international bodies help govern this interconnected world. Regardless of their bureaucratic challenges, how important do you think these international institutions will be in the future? As the world becomes more interconnected, will these organizations be essential in enforcing universal rules and preventing crises like the Russo-Ukrainian War?
Tomar: To me, networking is everything.
These international organizations are crucial because they allow us to stay informed about what is happening on the other side of the world. The way we operate today is completely different from the past. In the old days, businesses were restricted to their cities or countries. We have discovered that we can do the same or even better work in different countries.
Even though our company has been based in Ontario for over fifty years, it was only nine years ago that we decided to expand internationally. We have been successful because, in many ways, moving a construction company from Ontario to British Columbia is no different than expanding from Ontario to Turkey or Ukraine.
There are often better opportunities abroad, and businesses must be open to them. However, no matter where you go, you must thoroughly study local business practices and adapt accordingly.
Tomar: You have to adapt to local business habits, labour laws, and regulations—that is what we have been doing. I would recommend that other companies do the same. Instead of struggling in Ontario, they can expand abroad. This applies not only to construction companies but to other industries as well.
Jacobsen: I have recently interviewed business leaders, economists, and international law experts about tariffs, non-consensus decision-making, and the increasingly unilateral, winner-takes-all approach to business and international law. This trend is problematic because it disrupts the free flow of goods and services. Are tariffs a wise strategy in the short or long term? And do you believe they will remain in place for the long term?
Tomar: Tariffs are a short-term measure. They will not last long because they harm both economies. In the short term, particularly in a political context, Trump and others may use them to appeal to their base. Still, they will not be sustainable in the long run.
This is exactly why organizations like the European Union and trade agreements like NAFTA were created—the world needs free trade agreements. Without them, tariffs will make goods more expensive on both the U.S. and Canadian sides.
During the Cold War, we were united against the Warsaw Pact and the Soviet Union. Today, we face another major geopolitical force—China and its allies. Suppose North America and Europe do not eliminate these tariffs and work together. In that case, China will continue expanding its influence, particularly in Africa and other regions.
Tariffs raise prices significantly. Whether it is the automobile sector or construction, we can expect prices to rise by 3–7%, which fuels inflation that we cannot afford. That is why I do not see tariffs as a viable long-term strategy.
Trump and J.D. Vance are implementing these tariffs to appeal to their voters in the short term—that is all. That is my belief.
Jacobsen: Since 2021, China has reached its peak population. There are well-known cases of over-construction in China, which—though often criticized—can be somewhat understandable given the sheer scale of urbanization. Large-scale construction is inevitable when over a billion people are trying to transition hundreds of millions from rural areas to cities.
Tomar: Especially in an authoritarian system where a single leader makes all the decisions, it is much easier to mobilize populations and execute massive infrastructure projects. Whether it is Putin’s Russia, China, or North Korea, bureaucratic resistance is minimal. When the leader makes a decision, it is implemented immediately—you do not need to seek public consent or navigate democratic approval processes.
Jacobsen: That is correct. Many years ago, Russia reached its peak population. It is projected to lose tens of millions of people by mid-century, with even greater declines by the end of the century.
There seems to be a pattern in authoritarian regimes with nine—or ten-figure populations led by aging leaders (70+ years old). These governments often become sclerotic and resistant to change, and their populations lose the dynamism seen in more open societies.
What happens when a country’s population shrinks? China has been experiencing population decline for four years, while Russia has dealt with it for much longer. What happens to the construction industry when populations decline rapidly—when a country reaches its peak population, but the rate of decline accelerates each year?
Tomar: Population shrinkage used to be a major concern. It was considered a serious issue five, ten, or twenty years ago. However, with the advancements in AI and robotics—which we have been discussing for two decades but are now actively adopting—the demand for a large workforce is decreasing daily.
That is why I do not foresee population shrinkage as a problem. I do not see an issue because robots and AI will replace the need for human labour in many areas.
On the other hand, China is not Russia. Neither country is stagnant, but China, unlike Russia, continuously expands. The U.S. did the same 60–70 years ago with the Marshall Plan, spreading its economic influence globally. Today, China follows a similar pattern, expanding its economy every five years and consistently exceeding expectations. Their presence in Africa, the Middle East, and beyond continues to grow.
China will not face a major crisis due to population decline. The real issue is that Western countries must recognize this trend and eliminate tariffs. We must move beyond the European Union and the North American Free Trade Agreement (NAFTA) to form a stronger economic alliance. If we do not, we risk losing ground to China’s expanding influence.
Jacobsen: Given that outlook, where do you see the future of construction? Specifically, with robots performing essential tasks—from sourcing and fabricating materials to assembling entire buildings—how do you envision their role in the industry?
Tomar: Any repetitive work—regardless of industry—can be replaced by robots.
It does not matter whether the worker is a cashier, a handyman, a carpenter, or a steelworker. If the task is repetitive, it can be automated. The same applies to construction. If a worker does the same tasks every morning, those tasks can be automated with AI and robotics.
We have been discussing this for 30 to 40 years, but our technology is far beyond what we previously had. This is a transformational era in history. The pandemic accelerated our adoption of technology. We had to adapt quickly, and now we rapidly shift toward automation.
Jacobsen: What does this mean for materials development? Do you think AI will be used to design advanced construction materials that are cheaper, more durable, and more fire-resistant than we have today?
Tomar: Absolutely.
Our judgment can be flawed as humans, but AI makes fewer mistakes. When robots and AI are combined, the efficiency of building, assembling, and innovating increases dramatically.
Humans get tired, make mistakes, and have misleading judgments. Even in traffic, we cause millions of accidents every year. However, with AI-driven traffic management, accidents will become increasingly rare.
In five to ten years, having a car accident will be an anomaly—it will make the news because it will be so unusual. AI-powered vehicles do not drive with two eyes; they process the environment using 200 sensors, making them 200 times more perceptive than a human driver.
The same applies to construction. A carpenter has two hands and two eyes, but a robotic system can be designed with ten hands and ten eyes, making it five times more efficient.
We already have the technology—it is just a matter of adoption. How we think about construction, labour, and efficiency is still based on the limitations of human anatomy (two arms, two eyes). Once we fully integrate AI and robotics, those limitations will disappear, and construction will be faster, safer, and more cost-effective.
Now, we are going beyond what we traditionally know. Even when designing robots, we often model them after human capabilities, but we do not need to.
There is no reason we must limit robots to two eyes or two arms. We could design a single robot with 200 sensors or 10 arms, making it exponentially more efficient at constructing a house. With just four or five advanced robots, entire buildings could be assembled. The technology exists, and this is the future.
Jacobsen: Where do you see this industry expanding regarding human capital? What sectors will grow? Construction, business development, technology development—where will the focus be?
Tomar: As Canadians, we are conservative when adopting new technology—especially compared to Asia, the Middle East, and Africa. I have been to many countries, and I have seen this firsthand.
When new technologies emerge—AI, the metaverse, or automation—Canadian companies often develop the software. However, other countries purchase and implement it first. In Canada, construction and automotive manufacturing industries tend to stick with traditional methods until these technologies are adopted elsewhere. Then, and only then, do we integrate them. That is the difference.
Jacobsen: Given that shift, what role do you see for human workers in your industry?
Tomar: We must shift human labour toward software development and quality control.
Instead of working in physically demanding, high-risk environments, such as construction sites in extreme weather or driving long-haul trucks from Toronto to Miami, workers should transition to software engineering, automation control, and system monitoring.
That is where the new jobs will be created—software development, AI integration, and quality assurance.
Jacobsen: After the upcoming Canadian federal election, what should the next political leader and cabinet prioritize regarding construction partnerships—particularly with President Erdoğan in Turkey and President Zelensky in Ukraine? Or, more broadly, with the ministers responsible for these economic sectors?
Tomar: In three weeks, we will have a clearer picture.
Mark Carney and Pierre Poilievre will likely compete in the election in three months. Right now, Poilievre appears to be leading. Whoever forms a government and appoints a new cabinet in May or June must rebuild the public sector.
Many experienced bureaucrats have retired or left Canada, which has weakened policy development. We need to rehire skilled policymakers and bring in stronger leadership than before.
Additionally, new ministers must focus on diversifying Canada’s economy by expanding global trade and strengthening relationships with Ukraine, European nations, and African markets. I would like to see that.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Seyfi, thank you for your time today. I appreciate the updates and the deeper, exploratory questions—which I tend to ask.
Tomar: No, it is all good. Thank you very much.
Jacobsen: We will be in touch.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/11
Dr. Rebecca Mannis, founder of Ivy Prep, brings over thirty-five years of expertise in supporting children and adults with learning differences. With advanced degrees from Teachers College, Columbia University, and the Harvard Graduate School of Education, Dr. Mannis is a leading authority on individualized education, neuroscience, and adaptive technology. In conversation with Scott Douglas Jacobsen, she discusses the importance of physical and emotional safety, a “new TLC” (Temperament, Learning profile, Culture), and positive role models for child development. Mannis highlights neuroscience’s evolving role in education, the benefits of multilingualism, fostering resilience, and practical strategies to support both learning and mental health.

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So today, we’re here with Dr. Rebecca Mannis, a renowned learning specialist and founder of Ivy Prep. She has over thirty-five years of experience supporting children and adults in New York City and internationally. She holds a Ph.D. in Developmental Psychology from Teachers College, Columbia University, specializing in neuroscience and education. She also earned a master’s in Reading, Language, and Learning Disabilities from the Harvard Graduate School of Education.
Dr. Mannis consults with schools and corporations on individualized education plans (IEPs), learning disabilities, and integrating adaptive technologies in education. She previously coordinated education services for the Making Headway Foundation, a nonprofit that supports children with brain and spinal cord tumours, and served on the Harvard Graduate School of Education Alumni Council from February 2009 to 2014. What do children need developmentally and emotionally to thrive?
Dr. Rebecca Mannis: Let’s consider this from the perspective of an educator, a neuroscientist, and—as I often emphasize—a parent. There are several key factors. First and foremost, children need to feel safe.
They require both physical and emotional safety and access to high-quality education. Of course, safety and education have different meanings depending on how a child develops individually and what is happening in the surrounding society. As part of that, children must experience a healthy balance of support and structure and sufficient latitude to explore and grow based on their unique traits.
Thanks to neuroscience and careful observation of children and families, we now understand that while developmental patterns exist, everyone is distinct.
I sometimes describe these distinctions using a term I coined: “the new TLC.” Traditionally, TLC meant tender loving care. While loving support remains critical today, we must also consider temperament, learning profile, and culture. Hence, “the new TLC.”
So, what does that stand for?
- T is for Temperament. Each child is born with a distinct temperament—just as they are born with eye colour or a genetic predisposition for specific interests. Some children are slower to warm up, some are more sensitive or reactive, and others may be unflappable in new situations. Understanding a child’s temperament helps adults respond more effectively to their needs.
- L is for Learning Profile. Every individual has a unique constellation of cognitive strengths and challenges. Some children excel in verbal reasoning, others in spatial or motor skills. These differences—rooted in brain development—affect how children process information and interact with their environment. Acknowledging and supporting diverse learning profiles is essential for fostering growth.
- C stands for Culture or Context. A child’s cultural background, family dynamics, community resources, and national or regional norms shape a child’s development. Each of these contexts provides both opportunities and constraints, and must be accounted for when we think about what it means for a child to thrive.
Finally, children need role models—adults who exemplify curiosity, resilience, kindness, and integrity. These role models are crucial for helping children envision their own paths and build emotional and intellectual resilience. They need to see adults and peers who model decency, fortitude, ways to create meaning, and ways to stay engaged—to hopefully help them grow into good people and contribute to making our society a better place.
Jacobsen: How does neuroscience enhance the approaches to individualized education for children with learning differences?
Mannis: Neuroscience is a field that is constantly evolving. We now have access to valuable information, even going back a hundred years to the origins of neuropsychology, which essentially began as researchers observed soldiers returning from World War I with cognitive deficits due to brain injuries. From these cases, clinicians and scientists began to understand that damage to specific brain regions, such as the front left side, could result in language deficits, leading to insights about which brain areas mediate specific cognitive functions like language. Today, thanks to advances in knowledge, assessment procedures, and imaging tools, we can apply these insights to enhance educational approaches and revisit some long-held assumptions.
One example of an assumption we are rethinking involves dual language learning. It was once thought that children exposed to multiple languages from a young age—such as in a multilingual home—might experience delays in language development due to confusion. Now, what we understand is more nuanced. For some children at risk for dyslexia or with primary language difficulties, multilingualism can add a layer of complexity, but it is something we can work with and support.
For most children, however, research shows that while developing grammar skills or transferring language knowledge to reading might take a bit longer, dual or multiple language exposure is not inherently detrimental but complementary. For example, a child might be simultaneously learning English and Ukrainian, Hebrew and English, or even Farsi, Hebrew, and English. We now know that the brain systems responsible for language and critical thinking are consolidating—perhaps at a slower pace as the child integrates multiple languages—but this process strengthens cognitive flexibility and metalinguistic awareness.
So, neuroscience is helping us understand that multilingualism is an asset rather than a hindrance for most children.
As we learn more about how people grow and learn, we can use this information to benefit children formally and informally. This knowledge from neuroscience, gathered through various methods, helps us foster development and address areas of vulnerability. For instance, if a child has recently moved to the United States from another country and is dyslexic, we can apply these insights to provide the proper support and scaffolding for that child.
Another example, which is less commonly discussed, concerns giftedness. We now know that giftedness is not about a parent pushing a child because the child must go to Yale. Some individuals are born with a greater capacity or inclination to develop in certain areas and may progress differently. We now have a clearer understanding of their needs and competencies and what kinds of support and opportunities are appropriate for them. Neuroscience enables us to provide parents and communities with information to meet these children’s unique needs and help them develop their strengths.
Jacobsen: What are effective strategies to cultivate strong mental health in children?
Mannis: Mental health is a core concern for all of us now, whether we recognize its role in overall individual growth and community well-being, or whether we’re responding to challenges such as increases in racism or antisemitism, the impact of COVID-19, or rethinking the role of social media and screen time. Supporting mental health is essential. Some strategies are quite practical but always benefit from a brain-based, developmental approach.
The first and perhaps most powerful strategy is modelling. There is no greater teacher or role model than a parent. Parents can demonstrate healthy coping and growth through their behaviours and experiences when cultivating strong mental health.
For example, one way is to try something new. You might not be naturally gifted at singing, but if your children see you participating in a chorus once a week and practicing to learn the notes and sing with others, you are showing them that it’s valuable to face challenges, continue finding new interests, and grow from those experiences.
Another way parents can support mental health is by modelling kindness. This includes how you respond to others—whether declining an invitation, extending yourself to help, or encouraging another person in something vital to them. When you engage with people who see things differently, practicing active listening and showing respect while being sincere about your own opinions teaches children how to navigate differences constructively. Part of being a strong role model is demonstrating good communication skills.
Managing frustration is one of the most important things for parents to model today. We live in a society with many opportunities for exploration, achievement, and gratification—but also frequent chances for disappointment and annoyance. How we handle setbacks—grace, kindness, and resilience—makes a lasting impression because our children are always observing. They listen to our words and watch our actions to see whether they are aligned or inconsistent.
Another way parents can help cultivate strong mental health in children is by monitoring their growth and having open conversations about what is on their minds. Sometimes, this means intentionally setting aside time for discussion or simply taking advantage of informal moments—such as while driving to a Yankees game or a Mariners game—to talk about situations that may be concerning or interesting to them.
It’s also essential to give children opportunities to stretch themselves, encounter frustration as they pursue goals, and experience the “window of tolerance.” This is where they can try something challenging, derive absolute pleasure and success from the experience, and ultimately learn how to persevere through difficulties that matter to them.
Jacobsen: Is kids’ mental health under more duress in high-competition contexts—Shanghai, Seoul, Tokyo, New York City, London, Singapore, Hong Kong, Toronto, Vancouver, Bangalore, or Paris?
Mannis: That is such an important question because there are both distinct factors affecting how children are growing up and how families are functioning in those environments and many commonalities. For example, some families have highly involved parents; others have a sibling facing illness or a child who is bright and eager to study advanced math but also has ADHD or OCD.
Children everywhere are adjusting to adolescence, trying to understand the changes in their bodies, minds, and interests over time. So, the first thing I would say is that we need to focus on the commonalities shared by children in different situations and recognize that there is enormous variability within each city or context.
We also have to consider how we observe and measure mental health in these contexts. In some environments, children are subjected to very intensive tutoring. As a learning specialist, I spend my days providing individualized tutoring, guiding students through college preparation, and teaching study skills for high-stakes tests—all to help children become more independent learners. However, not all tutoring serves this purpose. In some places—be it New York, Shanghai, or Bangalore—there exists a culture of high-pressure tutoring focused on test performance. Children may spend weekends being drilled extensively by tutors.
Research shows that while these children might gain specific academic skills more quickly—such as learning to decode complex words or mastering multiplication tables—the long-term effects are less clear. The evidence is mixed regarding whether this approach sustains their interest in learning or helps them become self-motivated and independent thinkers. There are also questions about whether intensive tutoring dampens their intrinsic motivation to learn for curiosity and joy.
As we discussed before, the concept of TLC—tender loving care—states that showing love and support is crucial for children and students. However, when addressing issues like anxiety or obsessive-compulsive disorder, one of the greatest gifts we can give a young person is not to accommodate or reinforce what is difficult for them. In other words, supporting children means helping them face challenges rather than shielding them from all discomfort.
If a child is shying away from learning their times tables, one of the best gifts we can offer is to give them the tools and encouragement to persevere—showing them they do not need to put their energy into avoidance or self-effacement.
Do we say that overturning or a hyper-focus on skills and drills is always detrimental? Not necessarily. Sometimes, it takes away from the joy of learning and fostering independence. On the other hand, there are times when providing those structures does a great deal of good for an individual learner.
Jacobsen: How can adaptive technology and AI be used responsibly and integrated into a child’s learning experience?
Mannis: I’ll add one anecdote that I recently came across in a news item. I’m unsure if this was misreported, but I saw it, so I’ll share. A student felt frustrated after being chastised by a teacher for using ChatGPT in school. However, the student later observed the teacher using ChatGPT themselves and justifying it. The students said they felt as if they wanted a refund for the course because of the perceived hypocrisy.
This example illustrates the importance of modeling—exactly as you mentioned—and the need for an ethical approach to using AI in educational contexts. Responsible use is not just about the tools themselves but about how adults model their use for students.
Current technological tools, including artificial intelligence, offer tremendous potential, but they also require thoughtful and responsible integration. Much of the conversation centers around how technology is used, whether AI or other digital platforms. In reflecting on this, Scott, I am reminded of a point famously made by one of the founders of neuropsychology.
We discussed earlier that neuropsychology developed as a field in both Russia and the United States, often in response to understanding the challenges faced by soldiers returning from World War I with head injuries. By systematically studying patterns of brain function and deficits, the field advanced significantly. One of the most famous figures in Boston was Professor Edith Kaplan. She often said that while developing assessment tools and measures is essential, a good neuropsychologist always remembers that what truly matters is how those tools are used to benefit the individual.
Test publishing and textbook publishing are big businesses, and many excellent tools are available. However, Dr. Kaplan was ahead of her time in emphasizing that the critical element is how we, as humans, use those tools thoughtfully and tactically and share that knowledge to support individual growth and inform policy.
Here is an example of using AI in my practice with students. I have a student who has a tremendous interest in the history of music but reads at a lower reading level. That child may know many facts and have strong conceptual skills, but if their decoding skills—their ability to read individual words or longer sentences—need development, then my instruction and their practice become crucial. Otherwise, their comprehension will be compromised. So, we want to provide that child with targeted skill-building and plenty of practice.
We want to make the learning process more engaging by incorporating their interests. For instance, I have used AI, with carefully designed prompts, to generate content about famous musicians or baseball teams that appeals to the student’s interests but also contains sentences of manageable length and includes factual, inferential, or higher-order thinking questions. Of course, I review and further edit this material, but that is an example of how access to AI can be excellent and how it can be a terrific educational tool.
Many schools—public, private, and Ivy League universities—are also beginning to incorporate AI into their programs. For example, Emory University announced this year that it is launching a minor in artificial intelligence because it recognizes that it is its responsibility to teach students tools they are already being asked to use in summer internships. We want students to have these skills and, frankly, even to lead some of the professionals ten or twenty years their senior.
However, I also want them to use these tools with an understanding of ethics, the technology’s potential, and its current limitations. I have worked with students at Ivy League institutions where professors ask students to create discussion posts—sometimes composing weekly posts entirely independently, signing an honour statement confirming their independent work, and sometimes generating drafts with AI prompts. The students are then asked to review both versions and write a critical analysis comparing how the AI-generated responses align with their thinking, noting the strengths and weaknesses. They may also be asked to refine their prompts to see how to use AI more effectively.
I think about this a lot. I also recall a mentor of mine, Professor Jean Chall, a professor at Harvard University who was responsible, in the 1970s and 1980s, for reintroducing phonics into reading curricula when less effective methods were in use. When I was at Harvard, they announced their first technology and education program. We, the students in the reading program, asked Professor Chall for her thoughts on this new direction. She said, “Technology is wonderful. It does great things now; I can’t imagine what it will do someday. But there are two things AI will never replace: the thrill of holding a page-turner in your hands and the impact of a fabulous teacher.”
Regarding Professor Chall and the ways in which AI is shaping assessment, I am currently working with groups exploring how AI can make assessments more accessible and cost-effective. It is an exciting field, and I am glad to be a part of it. There are also real necessities in training both teachers and students so that AI serves as an adjunct to instruction rather than a replacement.
Jacobsen: For children recovering from traumatic brain injury or cancer, what are the realistic limits on the resilience and adaptability of the developing brain?
Mannis: Our knowledge base has grown substantially in this area, and we expect to learn much more as we observe development and outcomes across the lifespan and the impact of new intervention methods. The good news is that while cancer diagnoses in children are increasing, so too are our abilities to identify cancers earlier and, most importantly, help children survive and experience long-term remission.
However, cancer and other brain injuries can significantly impact the developing nervous system. We know that interventions—whether surgery, chemotherapy, or radiation—can save lives, but they may also affect brain development.
What we’re beginning to understand is that some general patterns emerge, but many factors influence outcomes: the type of intervention, the location of a brain tumour, the duration of chemotherapy or radiation, and the number of schoolchildren missed—especially in cases involving stem cell transplants or extended hospitalization.
Interventions in younger children tend to be more pervasive and can affect intelligence or functioning more globally, as the developing brain is still forming its foundational structures. When diagnosis and intervention occur during adolescence or young adulthood, the effects tend to be more specific and localized. Part of the reason for this is that in younger children, the brain is still growing rapidly through processes such as myelination—an increase in the insulating sheath that helps nerve cells send signals quickly.
As you so eruditely discussed, there is also the concept of pruning—the idea that certain neural tracts become particularly strong while other neurons and less efficient tracts are eliminated and do not develop similarly.
For example, if a child is very young—say, eighteen months or four years old—the tumour or cancer is developing against the backdrop of a rapidly developing nervous system. The interventions required may save the child’s life, but they inevitably impact brain development as well. Younger children are acquiring foundational skills: developing language, learning to skip, and mastering the rules for breaking long words into syllables. Both the disease and the treatment occur during this critical initial skill-building period.
That scenario differs from a diagnosis at age fifteen, eighteen, or twenty-three. In those cases, individuals typically retain most of what they had already acquired before the illness. Their overall intelligence or reasoning ability is usually preserved, and they have learned essential academic and coping skills—such as managing homework even in distracting environments or tolerating frustration in ways that younger children may not yet have developed. They also tend to have had positive life experiences that provide essential context and resilience compared to younger children, who may be more vulnerable.
So, when a diagnosis occurs in adolescence or early adulthood—say at fourteen, nineteen, or twenty-two—basic skills like reading are typically maintained. However, there may be impacts on processing speed (how quickly they absorb new information) or executive functions (their ability to plan, organize, and juggle multiple tasks). For example, they may find reading and understanding new material more challenging, like a chapter on the French Revolution, without the same background knowledge or mental energy.
From an educational standpoint, one of our goals is to increase the knowledge base of teachers and administrators. Because brain injury and cancer survivorship are less common than, for example, dyslexia or ADHD, there is often less awareness in school systems about how best to support these students. It’s important to educate teachers so they can collaborate with families and specialists, ensuring that students receive necessary accommodations—such as more frequent breaks, a reduced course load, or a shorter school day to manage fatigue.
At the same time, we now understand the importance of fostering agency in children who have experienced these challenges. For example, when I work with children who are cancer survivors or have had a brain injury, we often practice scripts for emails or private meetings with teachers or professors so they can share (if they wish) their history and the strategies that help them succeed. This can open the door to a partnership with the teacher, making it easier for the student to transition into the new school year.
However, it’s also important to recognize that repeatedly explaining their history and advocating for accommodations can be retraumatizing for children and their families. Even well-meaning adults—who often hold more power in these situations—may inadvertently make students feel different or marginalized simply by requiring them to relive their difficult experiences.
That’s, of course, what happens in large medical systems. One of the best things we can do is to recognize this dynamic and work with children and their families to find ways to mitigate it while engaging kids in problem-solving. We often refer to this as developing metacognitive awareness.
For example, I might ask a student, “What about spacing out the deadlines for your book report and your term paper that you think will help you, Johnny?” Or, “What do you see as the logic behind waiting to take the SAT next year rather than this year? How will that help as you adjust to a reading-heavy history course?” The more we model and help children communicate what helps or hinders them, the more they can amplify their experiences and engage others in collaborative problem-solving that meets their needs.
Jacobsen: My last two questions. How can parents distinguish between typical developmental challenges and signs of a learning disability? How can we design educational approaches to maintain engagement while supporting healthy brain development?
Mannis: The distinction between typical development and a learning disability has become more pronounced as awareness grows around different difficulties. For instance, I increasingly hear from families about “time blindness”—difficulty estimating how long tasks will take. While using this label can sometimes feel pathologizing, recognizing that such challenges exist can also be helpful.
It’s tricky to make these distinctions because we’ve had tremendous disruptions—such as school districts and private schools sometimes using ineffective reading instruction methods. When children are asked to tackle advanced reading in fifth grade and struggle, is it undiagnosed dyslexia or a need to strengthen foundational skills that were not adequately taught in the early grades? The disruptions caused by COVID-19 and the dual role of technology as both a tool and a hindrance have further complicated our understanding.
One of the best ways for parents to distinguish between developmental challenges and learning disabilities is to build a trusted community and seek input from others—through parent groups (which I often run), discussions with learning specialists, or consultations with pediatricians. Informal networks—the so-called “mommy network”—can be very effective, as parents share experiences and learn what concerns are resolved on their own, which require formal evaluation and intervention.
Alongside that, I recommend two additional strategies. First, try to think across the developmental trajectory. For example, some people approach me in their twenties, saying, “I have ADD.” It may be that underlying difficulties were present earlier and are now more pronounced in the context of law school or other demanding environments. It’s unusual for ADD to emerge as a completely new issue in adulthood—typically, there are earlier indicators in childhood.
It is unusual for a twenty-two-year-old to present with these challenges without an earlier history suddenly. So, looking back—whether you’re the individual or the parent—and identifying those patterns is important. For example, research shows that between sixty and eighty percent of people with dyslexia have what is called language-based dyslexia because reading is fundamentally about recognizing and processing words visually.
Most people with dyslexia have an earlier history. They may have been slower to start speaking, had trouble following multi-step directions in first grade, or experienced dysgraphia—difficulty holding a pencil and writing letters neatly while organizing their thoughts.
These challenges may become more pronounced in demanding environments like law or medical school, but there were probably earlier indicators. One practice I encourage for parents, as old-fashioned as it may sound, is to keep a file on your phone or a notepad by your bedside—these things might keep you up at two in the morning. Write it down when you notice something—whether it’s a concern, an area of strength, or an example of what works. This allows you to step back, reflect, and, when working with experts like me, provide specific, meaningful examples that can guide distinguishing between typical development and learning challenges.
Regarding educational approaches supporting healthy brain development, I recommend thinking tactically about why we use specific new tools while recognizing the value of traditional methods. I work with students worldwide via Zoom, including those who live far from specialists in giftedness, dyslexia, or brain tumour survivorship. Technology like Zoom, AI, and digital markup tools can be invaluable for sharing and annotating materials, especially for visual learners.
On the other hand, research shows that people process information differently when reading from a screen than when holding a physical book. Deep reading tends to be more effective with a printed book. So, I recommend making time for families to read together—participating in book clubs, discussing podcasts or interviews, and engaging in meaningful conversations during daily routines, such as car rides to visit relatives.
We also want to ensure that children and adults have time for rest, play, and enjoyable activities that allow for reflection. Scott, when we first spoke, you mentioned that your interest in a college project led you to take a leadership role in writing, which ultimately shaped your current work. That is an excellent example of how having the freedom to try something new, feeling comfortable approaching others, and having the mental space to experiment can lead to unexpected satisfaction and achievements.
Finally, I want to emphasize the importance of parents and teachers working together and truly having knowledge and understanding. Let me give you one example.
Many technology-based tools can be helpful for both parents and teachers. Unfortunately, not enough time is dedicated to training teachers on how to use this information effectively—how to customize it, how to extract what is particularly relevant for their class, their weekly topics, or for an individual student. Teachers often do not have the luxury of the preparation and communication time they truly need.
Imagine what could happen if parents fully understood the value of some PowerPoints provided by textbook publishers and how they could sit with their children and review those materials—especially when children feel overwhelmed during finals season. Many of my high school students are preparing for finals, so I know their stress. Finding ways for teachers, parents, and students to use available tools collaboratively can enhance learning to support brain development and problem-solving skills.
We talked about metacognition—being able to analyze, “Here’s what helps me,” whether it’s using AI, reviewing a PowerPoint, or planning because I know I will be coming home late from a Yankees game. (Sorry, last night’s walk-off home run was incredible—I’m a big Yankees fan!) This means asking: “What does this mean for me? How should I talk to my teacher?” Maybe I’m writing for the school newspaper’s sports section, but I also have a term paper due. How can I communicate with my teacher to prioritize my studying and maximize my time before the holiday weekend?
That is a much more engaged, proactive, higher-level way of using technology and understanding executive function and organizational skills. Hopefully, this approach puts students in the driver’s seat, empowering them to engage meaningfully with the adults who support them.
Jacobsen: Rebecca, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate it.
Mannis: It was my pleasure. Thank you for your thoughtful questions and the opportunity to share my expertise. It was great to meet you. Let’s continue this conversation.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/10
Dr. Joshua Korman, a Stanford-trained, board-certified plastic surgeon and founder of Korman Plastic Surgery, discusses his background in music, sculpting, fitness, and plastic surgery innovations. He explains the role of exosomes and gene therapy in accelerating healing, ethical considerations in younger patients seeking surgery, and the blurred lines between vanity and necessity. Dr. Korman highlights his Clean Slate Program’s national impact on tattoo removal for gang rehabilitation and emphasizes the importance of education in emerging regenerative technologies. He reflects on patients’ misconceptions, such as overconfidence from online research, and shares insights on passion, judgment, and lifelong learning.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: All right, today we are here with Dr. Joshua Korman, husband of Dr. Siobhan Korman, a Stanford-trained, board-certified plastic surgeon and founder of Korman Plastic Surgery, with locations across Northern and Central California, including Carmel-by-the-Sea, Los Altos, Mountain View, and San Jose. Recognized for his artistry and expertise, he specializes in advanced facial, breast, body, and male procedures. A Castle Connolly Top Doctor and Newsweek honoree, Dr. Korman also serves as an Adjunct Clinical Professor of Surgery at Stanford University School of Medicine. He holds numerous patents in skin remodeling and tissue expansion and advocates for the positive psychological impacts of surgery. A community leader and founder of the Clean Slate Program, he balances his surgical career with music, sculpting, and outdoor fitness passions. Let us start a little off-topic. What kind of music do you play, why did you get into sculpting, and what outdoor fitness activities do you enjoy?
Dr. Joshua Korman: In the order, you asked, what kind of music is it? I play the piano and the oboe and actively perform in several groups and bands. I was a music major in college. Many of my relatives are musicians. I play different kinds of music — I perform in big bands and small groups. Similarly, the oboe is quite different from the piano, and just as I enjoy a range of instruments, I do not like to be pigeonholed as “just a facial plastic surgeon” or a “body plastic surgeon.” It is a “yes and” approach to use your words. As for sculpting, I became interested when I was a chief resident. People often say plastic surgeons are artistic, but I don’t think I really appreciated what that meant. There was a visiting sculptor at Stanford, and I arranged for her to run a course for plastic surgeons and trainees. A few of us participated, and at first, the sculptures we made looked a bit like Martha Washington. But eventually, I realized a few important things that are different working in clay than in surgery— for example, always keep the nose up because when you sculpt faces in clay, they naturally tend to look older.
There are little tricks like that. That is the kind of sculpting I do. I enjoy it a lot. As for outdoor fitness, I work out consistently. I ride my bike, lift weights, and run. That is a big part of my life. It is essential to stay healthy. I grew up playing soccer, and I remember during one medical school interview, the interviewer said, “Oh, I see you play sports. Do you like to exercise?” I said, “I guess so,” and he replied, “When I get the urge to exercise, I sit down and wait for it to go away.” But my father, who played soccer at an almost professional level, is now turning 97, and exercise has certainly served him well. So yes, I firmly believe that exercise is a very good thing.
Jacobsen: Have you found any knock-on effect benefits from these side parts of your life in your primary profession?
Korman: I have found side benefits from these things; yes, so, they give me something to talk about and relate with many patients. I never run out of things to discuss with patients and people in general. We live in a world with so many different subworlds within it. Before I got my first dog, I did not know much about dogs. Then you go to a dog show and realize, wow, there is a whole world of people who live for their pets. It’s enlightening to learn about whole other worlds. But at times it also gives me a sense that there are people who might not know what they are talking about, but sound like they do. It makes me realize that there are things I truly know about and others I really don’t — and that is true for others.
Jacobsen: So passion is not a proxy for knowledge.
Korman: It is not. That is a perfect line. I will have to borrow that.
Jacobsen: TM. So, moving more to the main set of questions, some natural avenues of questioning will follow from this. Regardless, how are gene therapy and exosome-based treatments relevant to plastic surgery now?
Korman: People live longer and are increasingly concerned about their health and appearance. I recently saw a statistic that more than half of babies born to today will live to be 100. Exosomes — let us go back to what exosomes are. Exosomes were discovered in the 1980s, and initially, people thought they were waste products of cells. For something to be classified as a cell, it needs a nucleus and a membrane; exosomes are not cells . So, early researchers thought exosomes were just cellular waste. But then it became clear that they are incredibly powerful signaling devices that cells use to communicate. Inside these little bubbles are a lot of truly remarkable biological materials. They have clever membranes that allow them to easily slip into and out of cells, making them highly effective. Exosomes are very good for reducing inflammation and have significant therapeutic potential. The FDA has not yet approved them for direct injection due to concerns about safety and misuse, but the science is promising. It is not just hype; exosomes are real and potent. I have seen them dramatically improve healing when applied topically, especially after procedures like microneedling. As for gene therapy, it can restore function in cells by changing the genetic material. Only recently have true clinical applications started to emerge. Biohacking is a buzzword that may sound negative, but the concept of improving human lives through genetic modification is moving quickly.
I would not compare it directly to AI, but like AI, it is something everyone is talking about and slowly materializing into real use cases. To clarify, when I refer to biohacking, I’m referring to biohacking strategies that have been proven and scientifically researched.
In plastic surgery, we traditionally say we deal with the skin and its contents, but plastic surgery is not solely about the skin. The term “plastic” comes from the Greek word meaning “to “mold or “to shape.” Plastic surgery encompasses reconstructive, aesthetic, cosmetic, and more. A plastic surgeon performed the first successful kidney transplant. Plastic surgery is a vast and dynamic field.
However, to answer your question — how are cellular advances related? It is all about healing. It is about improving healing and delaying the signs of aging. That is how it is most beneficial to plastic surgery.
Jacobsen: If we are looking at timelines, whether you are on the younger side of life or the older side, what would a regular timeline of healing and recovery look like after surgery? And with these therapeutics and treatments, what would be the change or difference?
Korman: It depends on how you look at it. For example, think of laser resurfacing, which is controlled burns to the face or other areas. Usually, if you stay pink and are still healing for two weeks, with advanced therapeutics, that healing can happen in a few days instead of two weeks. It can be very dramatic because the body is programmed to heal open wounds quickly — open wounds can be life-threatening. In terms of surgical results, meaning when you have closed a wound after an operation, these processes can accelerate healing significantly. If it usually takes two weeks, advanced treatments could allow someone to recover much sooner. If you ask how soon someone can return to work — say, after a knee operation, which is orthopedic, not plastic surgery — orthopedics has been injecting different types of materials into joints to improve healing for a long time. In plastic surgery, healing improvements can be pretty dramatic as well. I am not being more specific because it depends on the part of the body and the patient’s age. Older individuals tend to heal more slowly than younger individuals.
Jacobsen: Another question from that is: Is there an upper limit, or an age plus other considerations, that tends to be when plastic surgeons do not perform surgery? What are the conditions for that?
Korman: It is interesting — both on the young and old sides. Have you ever seen the movie Hidden Figures?
Jacobsen: A friend of mine talked about it, but I do not recall the details.
Korman: It is about three women who worked for NASA, who were brilliant mathematicians, and their struggles to be accepted. They accomplished amazing things for NASA. NASA has a major facility here, and I operated on three people — two women and one man — who had worked there, all in their 80s. But you would never know they were in their 80s. These individuals were like G.I. Joe and G.I. Jane — pilots and incredibly active. You would think they were 40. Yes, they had some wrinkles, but how youthful and vibrant they were was shocking. So, chronological age is very different from biological or functional age.
On the younger side, it is interesting now that it used to be thought that facelifts and similar procedures should not be done until patients were in their 50s, 60s, or 70s. But now, many people are seeking surgery before they turn 40 because they want to maintain their youthful appearance, not just regain it later. They want to stay looking like they are in their 30s. It raises interesting ethical questions. I have seen several patients who had surgery in Korea while in their 30s, and they came to me for follow-up or other procedures. There has been coverage of this in outlets like The Wall Street Journal, noting that many people are having cosmetic surgery in their 30s.
Social media plays a role in this trend. People want to stay looking young rather than wait until they look significantly older before pursuing surgery. The best compliment someone can receive after not seeing them for many years is , “You look the same,” rather than, “Oh, you had surgery,” or “What did they have done?” Looking unchanged—just fresh and youthful—is a very positive outcome.
Jacobsen: What about vanity surgeries? People are free — these are not illegal procedures. So, these can be done. Yet, in consultation, do these become part of the conversation regarding the soft skills approach needed for surgery since they are in your office seeking expert advice?
Korman: Several years ago, I gave a talk to Stanford undergraduates titled, Is it Necessity or Vanity? I started by showing them a picture of a baby with a cleft lip. I asked, “Is this necessity or vanity?” They said, “Oh, necessity, of course.” Then I showed them a picture of a mastectomy patient, and again, almost all said, “Necessity.” Nearly all — but not everyone. Then, I showed them a picture of a patient who wanted a facelift to stay competitive in Silicon Valley, maintaining a youthful appearance for professional reasons. Everyone said, “Vanity, for sure.” Then I showed them a picture of a 20-year-old with a cleft lip — a patient from a trip to Vietnam many years ago. Again, they said, “Necessity.”
However, I explained that while I repaired the cleft lip when he returned a week later to have his stitches removed, he had been kicked out by his family. As a beggar, he had been a source of income for the family, but once his cleft lip was repaired, he could no longer fill that role. So, the question of what is considered necessity versus vanity is not as simple as it seems. We are all judgmental and think we know the answer, but often, we do not.
Jacobsen: What are the promising applications of aesthetic and reconstructive procedures in the current period?
Korman: There are up-and-coming developments. Face transplants are now being performed, which is remarkable. You might wonder, “Who would do that?” It is for individuals who have been severely disfigured. To undergo a transplant, you must take immunosuppressive drugs — unless you have an identical twin, which is rare. Otherwise, the transplant would be rejected. Face transplantation has begun, and so have hand and limb transplants, which are significant advancements. Robotic microsurgery is also on the horizon.
In aesthetic surgery, healing topicals such as exosomes are advancing rapidly and have great potential. There is a growing focus on combination approaches—everyone, understandably, wants the least invasive, longest-lasting, most cost-effective, and best results possible.
There are an increasing number of minimally invasive and non-invasive procedures, but it is also important to help patients understand what truly works for their specific situation. For example, I perform deep plane facelifts, but sometimes, I modify them with short-incision techniques or combine surgical and non-surgical treatments depending on the patient’s needs.
Globally, the trend is toward combining techniques from different areas that you would not necessarily expect to work together. I also invented a medical device currently in clinical trials that aims to shorten breast reconstruction with tissue expanders from three months to one week—innovations like that.
Plastic surgeons have always been at the forefront of developing new technologies and devices, and that tradition continues strongly today.
Jacobsen: How long until gene-editing tools or exosome delivery systems become mainstream plastic surgery protocols?
Korman: Well, regarding exosomes and the mainstream — the FDA has not yet approved exosomes. Therefore, you cannot use on-labels widely yet. Do you know the difference between on-label and off-label products?
Jacobsen: When it has gone through its complete phase trial process with the FDA, or…?
Korman: No, not exactly. When the FDA has approved something — let us say a pill for asthma — and the FDA has approved it specifically for asthma, that is called on-label use. If someone realizes that the same pill is also effective for treating something else, even before the FDA officially approves it for that new use, doctors can legally prescribe it for the other condition — but that is called off-label use. So, it has been approved, but for a different primary purpose. Exosomes have not yet been approved for anything in terms of injections, and that is what everybody is waiting for. The FDA wants to be cautious, and understandably so. Many companies are lining up, preparing for that moment. The day the FDA approves exosomes for injection or injectable treatments will be a significant moment for the field.
Gene editing tools, CRISPR, and so on are exciting areas. I see gene editing as more relevant in cases like children born with congenital anomalies, where genes can correct defects before or shortly after birth. That is exciting, but it is not happening today or tomorrow in routine practice. Gene editing is still far from being standard in our field. Exosome therapies are much closer to clinical use.
Jacobsen: What are the responsibilities of plastic surgeons in educating patients about emerging regenerative technologies?
Korman: It is essential to be good doctors first and foremost. That is the best guiding principle. Hyping treatments that are not yet proven or not appropriate. At the same time, doctors need to be well-versed in what is available and emerging to offer patients the best advice and options. It might sound old-fashioned to say that surgeons must strive to be good doctors, but it is true. With exosomes, for example, many companies are making big claims. While the technology is real and promising, we must be cautious. Until the FDA approves exosomes for specific treatments, there are limits to what can responsibly be offered to patients. Doctors must stay educated and act responsibly with new technologies.
Jacobsen: More young patients are seeking facial procedures. What are the ethical lines in these procedures? We touched on that earlier when discussing the vanity versus necessity assessment.
Korman: Yes, yes. Well, the point is that it is a question of whether people want to look the same but refreshed and better or whether they want to look dramatically different. When people want to have their noses fixed, they may want to look different because they do not like what they see now. There have been many stories, movies, and articles about people who want to look dramatically different. Again, it is essential to be smart and to educate patients. Plastic surgeons can operate on ears but not on what is between the ears.
Jacobsen: You founded the Clean Slate Program to remove gang-related tattoos. What lessons can be drawn from aesthetic transformation and psychological healing?
Korman: That was an exciting project, and I am proud of it because I started it over 30 years ago. It follows the idea of “give a man a fish, and he eats for a day; teach a man to fish, and he eats for a lifetime.” The program is still active today, even though many participating doctors do not even know how it started — and that is okay.
At the time, and still today, many people could not get jobs because of tattoos, especially gang-related tattoos. That is how the program began. People make mistakes at any age, but many had extremely challenging childhoods. The program has been beneficial.
When I launched it, I insisted that if it was going to succeed, people needed to know about it. It was originally coordinated through the Mayor’s Office in San Jose. I believed you could not just do it quietly; it had to be prominent and well-known to reach the people who most needed it. Now, if you look up tattoo removal programs or “Clean Slate” online, you will find programs connected to the University of San Diego and elsewhere. It is interesting — because although some claim it started there, it did not. Still, that does not matter. I am very proud of it, even though it has long outgrown me.
The ethical takeaway is that it is about helping people — providing real, effacacious assistance that can change lives.
Jacobsen: How far has it spread outside of the mislabeling of where it originated? How many programs have developed from it?
Korman: All over the country — a lot. A lot. At the time, it was early days for lasers that were effective at removing tattoos without burning the skin. That is how it started: figuring out how to do it safely. Lasers are expensive, so part of the challenge was finding ways to get lasers donated by companies and similar initiatives. As technology improved, more and more people and programs started doing this kind of work.
Jacobsen: So, how does that work, in short, in terms of tattoo removal?
Korman: In a tattoo, ink is placed below the skin. The body is always trying to get rid of it — it recognizes the ink as a foreign material, which is why some tattoos fade over time and some look better. Professional tattoo artists are truly skilled, and that quality affects how tattoos appear over time.
Laser removal works by breaking up ink particles. Blast the ink into smaller fragments, and the body’s lymphatic system clears the debris over time. That is how the body gets rid of it.
We used to joke that if you performed a lymph node biopsy on someone who had multiple tattoo removals, you might find remnants like “Susie” or “Jimmy” — names with lines through them — embedded in the lymph nodes. But that is, in technical terms, how tattoos are removed.
Jacobsen: How should other medical professionals approach launching community-based aesthetic programs, particularly when considering long-term social impact?
Korman: First, the basic principle is “do no harm.” You need to make sure that what you are doing is truly beneficial to the people you want to help.
Then, it is critical to ensure you have all the necessary pieces in place: community support, a reliable funding source, and medical infrastructure to back the program. You do not want to launch a program that runs out of resources halfway through. Having political support from local leaders and organizations is also helpful, providing additional legitimacy and access to resources.
There are already many excellent programs — for example, initiatives supporting victims of domestic violence or children from underserved communities. Fortunately, health insurance coverage for children in the United States is relatively widespread, but programs like this can still make an enormous difference.
Jacobsen: What are common misconceptions prospective patients have when they come to you that come up during consultation?
Korman: A common misconception is that I want to operate on them. I want to do the right thing for each individual, but I do not want to operate on someone if it is inappropriate. Another misconception is that patients often think they already know the right solution. Many come in having done a lot of research online—what I sometimes call “Google University,” “InternetU,” or, today, even “ChatGPT” research.
Jacobsen: Wikipedia Polytechnic.
Korman: Yes. So, that is part of it — there are misconceptions. Sometimes, patients think that healing and recovery will take an extremely long time, but that is not necessarily the case. As a profession, we have worked hard to reduce recovery times significantly. That is one misconception.
Another common misconception is about how long the results of a procedure will last. Perhaps the biggest issue patients have is fear — fear of surgery, especially when it is elective and not medically necessary. It is a significant emotional hurdle.
I grew up in a small town where no one had plastic surgery at the time. But the point is, if something bothers you for many hours or days, it is worth exploring solutions—whether it is surgery, a new car, or something else meaningful to you.
I do this work because so many patients tell me afterward that it has improved their lives, and that is worth a lot.
Jacobsen: Final question: what are your favorite quotes? They can relate to fitness, music, sculpting, or plastic surgery.
Korman: These are my favurite quotes. I mentioned earlier the one about the ears — “Plastic surgeons can operate on ears, but not on what is between the ears.”
Another quote I like is that “you do not know what you do not know,” and then there are things “you do not even know you do not know.” That concept appeared in The Big Short, although it was misattributed to Mark Twain — it was not actually from him.
I have so many favorite quotes:
Plastic surgeons can operate on ears, not what’s between the ears.
You can be so open minded that your brains fall out.
You should guzzle water and sip wine, not the other way around.
Jacobsen: Thank you for your expertise and your time, Josh. It was nice to meet you.
Korman: Nice to meet you, too. Thanks a lot. Bye.
Links:
Website: https://www.kormanmd.com/about/dr-korman/
Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/kormanplasticsurgery/
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/09
Christopher Louis is a Los Angeles–based international dating and relationship coach and the founder of Dating Intelligence. As host of the Dating Intelligence Podcast, Louis draws on intuition and lived experience to guide clients toward authentic selves and meaningful romantic connections. Louis discusses the challenges men in their forties and fifties face in modern dating. He highlights the allure and pitfalls of dating younger women, the undervaluing of women of the same age, and the need to shift male mindsets toward emotional maturity, shared values, and compatibility. Through personal anecdotes and coaching insights, Louis emphasizes that long-term fulfillment comes not from superficial attractions but from reciprocal, emotionally intelligent partnerships. His new platform, Mentality, supports men who are ready to find meaningful relationships with confident, successful women who are closer to their life stage.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Once again, we are here with the charismatic and socially astute Christopher Louis. Today, we’re focusing on men in their forties and fifties. This demographic can present unique challenges in the dating world. The reasons are not always obvious, and even the apparent ones benefit from a more nuanced perspective, which you consistently bring to the conversation. You’ve been watching a new television show featuring Mad Men actor Jon Hamm recently. What’s the show called, what’s his role, and what’s the early narrative?
Christopher Louis: The series is called The Morning Show, and it’s available on Apple TV+. Jon Hamm joined the cast in the third season as Paul Marks, a wealthy tech billionaire who becomes involved with the network’s leadership and media operations. His character is ambitious, calculated, and represents a new wave of Silicon Valley-style influence entering traditional media spaces.
While the show is not directly about Wall Street or a man’s struggles with family life, it does explore themes of power, generational transition, and ethical compromise—all issues that resonate with men navigating midlife and career shifts.
That said, I’ve also been thinking about how many fictional shows portray men in their forties or fifties who seem to “have it all”—success, relationships, status—but are still deeply unfulfilled. A typical character arc often starts with the man living in a modest situation, rising through his career, building a family, and yet constantly feeling the financial and emotional pressure of keeping it all together. Despite professional success, a sense of personal meaning often lags.
In one dramatized scenario I saw recently—not from The Morning Show, but in a similar genre—a man in his late forties meets a woman in her late twenties at a bar. She initiates the conversation, flirts, and he’s flattered but cautious. He responds with, “You’re way too young for me,” and then walks her through all the reasons why their age difference would lead to tension over time.
He imagines the first few months going well—they connect, have fun, and feel the spark. But then he projects ten years ahead: he’s in his late fifties, she’s in her late thirties, and their life stages have diverged. She remains energetic, socially active, and eager to spend time with friends. He wants peace, comfort, and wine nights at home. He predicts that she will eventually want someone closer to her age—someone more vibrant, physically compatible, and ready to live that faster-paced lifestyle—while he retreats into slower rhythms.
This touches on a larger point: many men in their forties and fifties, especially those who have been divorced or in long-term relationships, often seek out younger partners. The fantasy is one of companionship, vitality, beauty, and new beginnings. However, reality usually leads to mismatched expectations, varying energy levels, and differing emotional needs. These generational disconnects typically emerge over time, complicating what initially felt like an escape or a second chance.
Usually, it’s women in their late twenties to mid-thirties. The reason why is that, after divorce, many men tend to shift toward wanting someone—what’s the term?—hotter, younger, sexier. They want someone who appears to have a more promising life ahead of them.
They often look for someone who doesn’t share many commonalities with them, but they don’t mind. They’re thinking: “I have money, I’m successful, and I can take her on trips, show her the world.” That’s the mentality. That’s what the guy I mentioned earlier was saying in the show.
So, fast forward—I just started a company called Mentality. It’s a platform for men in their forties and fifties who want to date women of a similar age. I prefer not to use the phrase “age-appropriate” because it feels dismissive. What I like to say is: you want to find the right fit for right now.
That means men who are open to dating women within about a ten-year age range—either a bit younger or older—but more importantly, women who align with where they are in life. It’s not about age as a number; it’s about stage of life, mindset, and values.
There are so many women out there today—strong, independent, fit, successful—let’s call them alpha women. Women who are leading businesses, who don’t need a man for anything. And yet, these same women are finding it hard to meet men in their forties and fifties who share their mindset. Why? Because so many men in that age group are chasing the younger model.
What I’m trying to do is help men see that they can find incredible women in their age group—if they open themselves up to that possibility. Women in their forties and fifties who are confident, accomplished, and share the same values are what they’re looking for.
Instead of going younger, which often leads to mismatches in priorities—like wanting kids or still being in a party phase—men can choose partners who are on the same page. Maybe they’re both done having kids. Perhaps they’re both ready to travel, relax, and build something meaningful together. That alignment is powerful. However, the challenge lies in changing their mindset.
That’s the hard part—reprogramming that mental narrative. Encouraging men to recognize that successful, emotionally mature, and vibrant women do exist in their age group. These women share their values, their ambitions, and their rhythms. But many men don’t see it because they’ve been conditioned to believe that these women are “too old” or “out of the game.” And that couldn’t be further from the truth.
Jacobsen: So it’s not about what’s missing in these women—it’s about what’s missing in the way men are seeing them.
Louis: Absolutely. That’s the core message I’m trying to push. These women are right there. They’re not lacking anything. Men have been taught to value youth over alignment, and that’s what I’m working to shift.
So, I want to let these guys know—they’re entirely wrong. Once again, there are many incredible women across the country and the world who share this mindset. But what I keep seeing is this belief among men that, once they’ve dated someone their age, they think, “I don’t want that again.” And why? Because they say, “She knows too much.” They feel these women will tell them things they don’t want to hear—things that challenge them or hold them accountable. And that intimidates them.
Jacobsen: I did look it up. According to a 2023 report by the Pew Research Center, which analyzed U.S. Census Bureau data, there’s now a record share of Americans aged 40 and older who have never been married. One in four 40-year-olds today—up from one in five in 2010. So the other category, not included in your comments so far, is men who aren’t divorced but have never married. Do they have the same mindset?
Louis: Men in their forties and fifties who have never been married often exhibit a distinct mindset. Honestly? Many of them exhibit a Peter Pan syndrome. They never really want to grow up. They could date someone their age, sure, but they’re rarely satisfied.
I know several men in this category. Good friends of mine. They’ve told me straight up, “Chris, we love you—but we just want to date younger women.” And the reason? They don’t feel secure enough—emotionally, physically, or mentally—to date a mature woman who is confident and has her perspective.
They worry they won’t measure up. They feel like mature women won’t find them desirable, or will challenge them in ways they aren’t ready for. So, they default to dating younger women because it feels easier. They believe they have more to offer a younger partner than they would to a peer, whether that’s financial security, experience, or a more desirable lifestyle.
Jacobsen: What are women saying to you—especially those from other industries or social circles—that reflect these patterns you’re describing?
Louis: Many women in their forties and fifties are saying the same thing. This is verifiable—you could look it up right now. There’s a significant portion of single women in that age range who are struggling to find a partner. And the number one reason they give? Most men their age are only looking to date younger women.
So, these women already feel left out and dismissed. They’re vibrant, successful, emotionally intelligent, and often in the best shape of their lives. But they’re not even being considered because of this widespread male mindset that says, “Older equals less desirable.” That’s not just unfair—it’s untrue.
Louis: And so now, a lot of these women are adjusting their dating preferences. For example, a 40-year-old woman might start looking at men in their late fifties or even sixties—older than she ideally wants—because the pool of age-aligned men has shrunk. On the other hand, women in their fifties often trend younger. They feel they have a lot to offer a man in his forties or even thirties.
And for some younger guys, there’s this Mrs. Robinson vibe—a sense of novelty or excitement around dating an older woman. They think, “I’m dating a cougar, this is exciting.” It can also become a kind of fantasy dynamic, where the older woman takes care of him, not because she’s trying to, but because she naturally brings a maternal presence. It’s not always healthy, but it’s real.
Jacobsen: That’s a whole different psychological layer—and maybe even a whole other interview series. However, you’ve identified the core of the issue as changing the mindset of older men. In many ways, it sounds like the old saying: teaching an old dog new tricks. So, how do you do it?
Louis: The best way for me to start is by helping the guy clarify what he’s looking for. When I ask that question, they’ll say something like, “I want someone who’s emotionally stable, shares my values, is active, supportive, and communicative.” And then I ask, “Do you think you could find that in a woman your age?”
Most of the time, they say yes. But when they go on a date with someone their age, they come back and say, “I just don’t think we had enough in common.” And the underlying issue? The truth is that most men prioritize physical appearance above all else. They ask: Is she attractive? Is she in shape? Is she aging well? These are the top three filters before they even get to shared values or emotional compatibility.
I recently had a client who went on five dates with a woman of the same age as him. She matched him in values, lifestyle, and long-term goals. Initially, he said she was fit, attractive, all of it. But a few dates in, he started nitpicking: “She’s a little saggy here,” “a little baggy there,” “some wrinkles.”
So I reminded him: “But you said she shares your values, you enjoy her company, and you have chemistry.” And he said, “Yeah, but…” And then the fundamental shift came. He told me she had started to boss him around a little, and that turned him off.
On their last date, which started great—they were laughing, connecting, everything was going well. Then she said something like, “You should start wearing nicer shirts,” or “You’d look better if you shaved that beard.” Something simple, but it triggered him. For him, it crossed a line—he felt criticized, managed.
This is where it breaks down for many men. They want a partner, not a parent. But they often misread confidence or directness in a woman their age as being “bossy,” when it’s just someone who knows herself. The next time they went out, she said to him, “I want to go to a place like this, not that last place you took me. That place felt low-rent.” And that hurt his feelings.
To him, that earlier place was special. However, she had a mindset that it wasn’t good enough, and she made it clear that she wanted something more upscale. He felt like she was discounting his efforts—not validating what he was trying to do—and that she was becoming pushy, even bossy, steering the dynamic into territory he wasn’t comfortable with.
That put him off. So I told him, “Maybe you need to tell her—calmly and clearly—that you didn’t appreciate the way she said that.”
She’s probably, once again, what we’d call an alpha woman. Someone who’s used to being in control—maybe a bit of a ‘boss bitch,’ to use the colloquial term. He knew that about her going in, but it finally showed up in a moment where she let him lead. And when she disapproved of his choice, she made it known in a way that felt dismissive.
I felt that was unfair. But to his credit, he did call her out—gently. I advised him to say something like, “That wasn’t what I was expecting, and I didn’t appreciate the way you said that.”
And to her credit, she responded well. She said, “Oh my God, I am so sorry—I didn’t mean to hurt your feelings. I’m just so used to leading, taking charge, and being in control.”
That right there—this pattern—is one of the biggest turn-offs for men in this age group.
Jacobsen: Do you think, in contemporary society, people are reevaluating what they want from relationships, and that this is part of a broader cultural experiment? We’re seeing more empowered, professional, self-sufficient women now than we ever have, globally. Could that be contributing to these kinds of jarring relationship dynamics?
Louis: That’s correct. In today’s world, many women are used to leading, especially in their professional lives. However, when it comes to dating, what I hear from many of them is, “I just want a man who takes the lead.” And they don’t mean that in a toxic or hyper-masculine way.
They’ll say, “I’m such an alpha in my business world. I want to be able to step back and have a man lead for once.”However, when a man tries to lead, some of them struggle to relinquish that leadership mindset. They end up unintentionally undermining his role.
And I tell them, “Look, that’s going to happen—it’s natural. However, you must work together to strike a balance. If you want a man to lead, and he steps up to do it, you have to let that happen without jumping in to correct or control everything.”
It’s about trust. It’s about resetting the dynamic so that both people feel respected, and both can relax into their respective energies.
Louis: But even then, some people still complain—”This isn’t what I expected,” or “This isn’t how I would’ve done it,” and so on. In those moments, you have to have the confidence to say, “Look, I hear you, but we need to find a balance. I don’t appreciate you discounting what I’m doing just because you think you have a better way.”
If you want me to take the lead, let me take the lead. That requires trust. You can’t say you want someone to lead and then undercut them every time they try to do so. It’s about mutual respect.
It’s the same with men. Many women say, “This guy, it’s his way or the highway.” And I tell them: Then you have to speak up early. Let him know—”I don’t appreciate that. I need to have boundaries. You need to respect what’s good for me and us. It cannot be about you constantly overstepping those lines.”
It’s like you have to teach each other how to find that balance. But most people are afraid. They’re so scared to speak up. They’re so scared to assert themselves.
And what happens? They end up in a relationship where the other person always takes the lead, and they lose their sense of self. Man or woman, it doesn’t matter. If you don’t speak up from the beginning, you lose your footing. You lose your balance. And the relationship never feels equal.
Jacobsen: Once men start making that mindset switch—even just a little—how does that play out in their dating life?
Louis: You’re right on point, Scott. Seriously. That’s the question. And it’s funny, because once men even slightly shift their mindset, the dating experience starts to change in significant ways.
A friend of mine once said something to me that stuck. I’ve researched this extensively. I’ve been speaking with men now in their sixties, many of whom are currently dating women about ten years younger. But here’s the thing: when I first met these guys—right after their divorces—they went much younger. Like, significantly younger.
So I started asking them, “What changed?” I spoke with several of these individuals, who are now in more age-aligned relationships, and one of them put it perfectly. He said, “Chris, let me tell you the truth.”
He goes, “When I got divorced, all I wanted was to have fun. I wanted a sexy girl. I wanted much sex. I wanted to go out, travel, do whatever I wanted.” And I said, “That’s fair.”
He replied, “Yeah—but then I realized I had nothing in common with these younger women. Once I figured that out, I felt ready to date someone closer to my age again.”
And that shift was key. He eventually met a woman who was about ten years younger—within that healthy range—but more importantly, someone with whom he had a high level of compatibility. He ended up marrying her.
He said, “Now I feel like I’ve found harmony. I was ready to reset, to get back out there—but I also knew what I wanted and what I didn’t want.” And this new relationship reflects that balance.
The woman he married is successful. She has her career and financial stability. She doesn’t need him, but they thrive together because they push each other to be better. It’s an equal, reciprocal relationship.
In contrast, when he was dating those much younger women, he felt compelled to do everything to impress them. He was taking them on trips, paying for everything, essentially taking care of them. And eventually, he got sick of it. He told me, “I don’t like this. I’m tired of carrying the whole thing.”
And I said, “Well, yeah—that’s what happens when you’re dating women who are still trying to establish themselves in life or business. They’re not there yet.”
Now, in his marriage, his wife doesn’t need him for anything, but she wants him. And that’s the difference. They challenge each other, yet they support one another. It’s a good set—an intense match.
So, what I try to teach men in their forties and fifties is this: if you trust me and are genuinely looking for someone authentic—someone who shares your values and is leading a parallel life—you can find that. And the good news is, the women I work with through my matchmaking company aren’t looking for someone to take care of them. They’re looking for a partner.
And the men I’ve matched with these women so far? They’re blown away. They’re like, “Wow.” She’s a beautiful woman—not only on the outside, but also on the inside. And being younger or older isn’t the point. It’s about finding the best fit for me at this time. That’s what I’m trying to do. If more men could just let go of the mindset that says, “I’m in my fifties, so I want a hot girl,” we’d get somewhere.
I ask them, “What do you mean by that?” They usually say, “Someone I can go out with, have much sex with.” And I respond, “Okay, but then what? After that? What are you looking for next?”
Most of them say, “I don’t know. I haven’t thought about that.”
So I press them: “What values do you want in a woman—if you say you’re ready to settle down?” Because the kind of woman they’re describing is not someone they’re going to build a life with. That’s a fleeting experience. Six months, a year—then it’s over. Then they’re asking themselves, “Why did I even date someone like that?”
So why not shift your mindset? Say instead: “I want a woman with high emotional intelligence. I’m looking for someone who shares my values. Someone who will walk with me through life, not control me, but partner with me. Someone who’son the same journey.”
If I can get them to understand that, then I know they’re ready. That’s when I know they’re prepared for the next level. That’s precisely what I’m trying to help them achieve through my company.
Jacobsen: What about the category of men who get divorced, don’t want a relationship, and still reach out to you? Is your advice to say, “Well, that’s what you want—go hire an escort”?
Louis: The good news is, most of the time, the men who come to me aren’t in that category. The guys I work with are ready to settle down. They’ve already been out there, done the whole song and dance with younger women, lived that experience, and now they’re looking for something real. Ask any dating coach: when a man in his forties or fifties reaches out and says, “I need help,” that usually means he’s ready.
Jacobsen: And what about the flip side? The ones who aren’t ready?
Louis: I’ve seen that too. I’ll reach out to a guy about joining the company, and he’ll say, “Chris, I think what you’re doing is great. I love your mission—but I’m just not ready yet.” And I always respond, “You know what? I appreciate your honesty.”
When you’re ready to join—or when you’re prepared to change your mindset—come to me. We’ll be here to help with whatever you need. Most guys, more than women, need to go on their journey. A woman often already has a clear mindset about what she’s looking for—even if the path she takes is not always the right one.
Jacobsen: What do you mean by that?
Louis: I mean, a woman usually says: “I want to settle down, I want to get married, and I want to have kids.” That’s typically the checklist. But a man? He’ll say, “I just want someone who’s physically and sexually.” So I ask, “Okay, and after you have that, then what?” They’ll respond, “I haven’t thought that far ahead.”
At least women, even if they go through 50 guys, still place their hopes, dreams, and values in finding the right one. They believe in the possibility of alignment. They think, “This guy could be it.” Whereas many men place their hopes and dreams into someone who excites them sexually—often someone younger—because she’s keeping them physically stimulated and making them feel alive again.
It’s almost like when a woman has a baby and enters that euphoric “new mother” phase—what do they call it, baby bliss? That rush of emotion that makes everything feel perfect?
Well, when a guy is sexually active with a younger woman, he gets a version of that same emotional high. He puts on those goggles and thinks, “Everything is amazing.” But when that phase wears off, what’s underneath it? What’s left?
So I always say: at least women start with their values. They may get disappointed, but they’re on a consistent emotional path, trying to find someone compatible. Many men have to go through the whole circle—realizing that the younger, purely physical relationship was a mistake—before they say, “Okay, I’m ready to find a real partner.”
Jacobsen: Do you think part of that is because women, as they get older, typically have richer social networks? Is it that they’re communicating more with their friends, cross-referencing and learning from each other’s experiences?
Louis: Not always. However, women do tend to discuss relationships more with their friends. They receive input, undergo emotional processing, and engage in group reflection. Men don’t do that as much.
But look—this starts young. Let’s be honest. You can ask an 18-year-old girl what she wants in a relationship, and she’ll often say something like, “I want a man who’s successful, who’s confident, who can be the man of the house. I want to get married. I want to have kids.”
Meanwhile, an 18-year-old guy? He’ll say, “I want someone hot. I want to have fun. I want to work on my career.”
Jacobsen: So the developmental tracks are already split early on.
Louis: That divergence stays with us. And unless men do the work to evolve their expectations—to move beyond the superficial—they’ll never build the kind of relationship they say they want once they hit their forties or fifties.
At that age, guys are thinking, “I want a successful career, I want a fun girl, I want lots of sex, and I want to date as many women as I can.” That’s not a typical mindset for a woman at that age.
As time passes, however, women’s mindsets evolve differently. A woman in her thirties—especially if she’s still single—starts thinking, “My biological clock is ticking. I haven’t met the right guy. What am I going to do? If I’m not married by 35, what happens next?” Suddenly, there’s a kind of internal alarm going off: “I don’t want to be the woman who’s single with three cats, living alone.”
So, even though women often talk to their friends and reflect together, the pressure they feel can lead them away from what they truly want. They lose sight of their core values because now it’s about urgency. It becomes, “Let me just find someone who fits well enough right now.” However, even if they marry that person, he may not be the right match for them.
And later, as they get older, they realize, “I made a mistake.” But by then, they feel it’s too late. Perhaps their career stalled, or they lost a part of themselves.
Jacobsen: So they stay in a bad relationship simply because of inertia.
Louis: Inertia. It’s emotional survival mode.
Jacobsen: Let me briefly address the issue of younger women dating older men. Say a woman in her mid-twenties is dating a guy in his fifties—what’s going on there? What’s the thought process?
Louis: Okay, so not all of them, but many younger women who date significantly older men are, in some cases, looking for what I’d call a “quick fix.” I hate to use this term, but it’s a sugar daddy dynamic. Someone who can support them while they figure out their career or next steps in life.
There’s a real phrase floating around now among their peers: “Why not find a guy who can take care of you while you figure out what you want?” That’s the actual advice some of them are hearing from friends. And honestly, most guys are okay with it, because both parties are getting their needs met. Let’s just be honest.
A 50-year-old man dating a 26- or 30-year-old woman thinks, “I’m dating this gorgeous younger woman.” Unless he’sGeorge Clooney or Brad Pitt, he’s just thrilled that she’s even in the picture. Meanwhile, the younger woman might be happy to have someone taking care of the financial side of things. And here’s what ties it back to what we said earlier—on dating apps, for example. When these younger women go on a date with an older man, they’re not shy. Many of them will outright ask, “Can you buy me something?” Direct expectations.
It’s become normalized. They’re confident about what they want. The social taboo of asking for something upfront? It’s fading fast in this dating culture. What happens is, early on in the dating process, some women will say things like, “Hey, I’m a little behind financially right now,” or “I probably need a little help—do you think you could help me out?” They’re not afraid to ask for that kind of support early, far earlier than they would if they were dating someone in a traditional way over time.
Jacobsen: So people are generally becoming more practical—maybe not in terms of a complete, fulfilling life picture—but in terms of knowing what they want and going after it. And that spans across age, sex, and gender?
Louis: Correct. People are becoming more direct, more pragmatic. But at the same time, we can’t forget that there are still plenty of traditional people out there—men and women—who want a conventional marriage. They want to fall in love and have that simple, stable life.
That’s why I did a podcast episode on this. I called it “Dating Differences and Age Gaps.” I featured a couple with a 23-year age gap—he’s in his sixties, she’s in her late thirties. They’ve been together for over ten years. And honestly? They’re a perfect fit.
She’s an old soul. He’s a young spirit. They complement each other beautifully. So yes—some people buck the trend. I’mnot saying it’s impossible. It can happen. But it’s rare. It’s far and few between.
Jacobsen: What should we end on?
Louis: It’s a broad and interesting topic—too vast to cover in one conversation. But I’ll end on this:
Let’s go back to the beginning of time. The age gap between men and women in relationships has long been a prevalent phenomenon. Historically, it was normal. A 30-year-old man would marry a 14-year-old girl—not because it was emotionally mature or ethically sound, but because she was young and fertile. That’s what society, especially royalty and traditional systems, valued—fertility and lineage.
It goes back to kings marrying girls 20 years younger, sometimes even teenagers. As long as the woman could bear children, that was the determining factor. The younger, the better—because the more likely she was to produce healthy heirs.
That was the logic of the time. Thankfully, society has changed, but remnants of that mindset still linger in how men, even today, subconsciously view youth and fertility.
But the context now is different. For example, a man who already has children may not be looking to start over and have more kids. The genetics are the same, but the mindset isn’t. A man who has already had children with his former partner usually doesn’t want to do it again. He’s done with that chapter. Now, he’s often looking for a partner, not someone to start a new family with.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Chris.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Ritual Killing In Africa
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/27
How can Nigeria’s legal system be strengthened to effectively prosecute witchcraft-related abuses?
Dr. Leo Igwe is a Nigerian human rights advocate, scholar, and founder of the Advocacy for Alleged Witches (AfAW). With decades of activism, Igwe has dedicated his career to defending those falsely accused of witchcraft, combating superstition, and advancing secular human rights. He has partnered with international and national organizations to confront harmful practices rooted in fear and cultural beliefs, particularly targeting women, children, and people with disabilities. A vocal critic of religious extremism and media sensationalism, Igwe promotes critical thinking, education, and legal reform. His work stands at the intersection of grassroots advocacy, public enlightenment, and global humanism.
In this interview with Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Igwe intensified campaigns across Nigeria in 2025 to defend victims of witchcraft accusations. Through unprecedented collaborations with organizations such as the International Federation of Women Lawyers, the National Human Rights Commission, and disability rights groups, AfAW has expanded its outreach to over 15 states. Initiatives include memorial events, legal interventions, media engagement, and direct support for victims. Despite cultural and religious resistance, Igwe emphasizes that witchcraft is a myth, urging communities to shift from fear-driven persecution to rights-based advocacy. His work highlights growing momentum, though challenges remain entrenched.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with the prolific activist, Dr. Leo Igwe of Nigeria, founder of the Advocacy for Alleged Witches (AfAW). Our primary focus is advocacy for people accused of witchcraft. A lot has happened this year, and we can dive into some specific events because I have notes. In your view, what have been the most significant achievements so far?
Dr. Leo Igwe: One of the most significant developments this year is that we have organized more meetings and awareness programs than in any previous year since 2020. Even as I speak with you, I am in Port Harcourt, in Rivers State, where we are organizing an awareness event—an event to remember victims of witch hunts and ritual attacks. It is the first of its kind in the country and in the history of our campaign: victims are being remembered rather than demonized.
These victims are not being pre-judged as guilty or condemned. There has also been considerable interest from groups wanting to partner with us. We have seen unprecedented requests and welcoming gestures from different organizations and civil society groups. For instance, the International Federation of Women Lawyers (FIDA)—several state chapters—has reached out to co-organize events. Historically, their focus has been on women and children, and accusations of witchcraft were not central; that is changing as AfAW’s work gains traction.
We have also engaged with the National Human Rights Commission of Nigeria (NHRC). Nigeria has 36 states and the Federal Capital Territory (Abuja), and some NHRC state offices are reaching out to co-organize events like the one we are holding on Saturday. They are ready to collaborate to highlight these abuses.
The Down Syndrome Foundation Nigeria has also contacted us to partner. They work on disability issues. Unfortunately, people with disabilities are often stigmatized or labelled as “possessed,” which leads to ostracism and harmful so-called “spiritual” interventions.
A recent example that drew national attention was a reported case in Calabar in February 2025, where a pastor allegedly killed his daughter, a child with Down syndrome, claiming she could transform into a snake. Cases like this show how superstition and stigma can turn deadly, and we are working with disability advocates to confront these beliefs and protect vulnerable families.
In terms of people who are accused, demonized, or stigmatized—whether because of disability or because of problems within the community—this has been a significant focus this year. We have now organized or collaborated in organizing events in over 15 states across Nigeria. By next week, we are planning an event in Niger State, in the north of the country. That will be the first event we have organized there, and we hope to use the opportunity to strengthen our partnerships with local groups and build a more robust mechanism for defending the accused.
That said, these collaborations do not come without challenges. For instance, in Niger State, we are partnering with women’s rights and children’s rights groups. They told us they would prefer not to have accused persons present, because their presence might trigger confrontation with accusers or with those who suspect them of being witches. This has been difficult, but we see it as a step toward educating people that everyone should stand as an advocate for the accused.
Many people still hold on to those beliefs and fears, even while showing some sympathy for the accused. However, sympathy is not enough. The accused are innocent. The law is on their side. So we want to find ways to reduce fear and anxiety and encourage communities to join us in openly and categorically supporting those accused of witchcraft.
Our meetings are not always characterized by unanimous support for advocacy on behalf of alleged witches. Sometimes, participants insist that witchcraft oppression is real. For example, at a recent meeting in Owerri, a pastor argued that witchcraft affliction must be addressed.
This is the contradiction we face. People say they oppose torture, killing, and persecution, but at the same time, they continue to insist witches exist. For us at AfAW, this is contradictory. If anyone claims people really are witches, then the burden is on them to prove it—to vindicate or exonerate those accused, rather than subject them to persecution.
Religion and culture also reinforce these challenges. Christianity, Islam, and Nollywood movies all perpetuate the belief that witchcraft and demonic possession are real. These institutions and cultural products continue to fuel the mindset that sustains witchcraft accusations.
In the churches and in the mosques, these harmful ideas are still being promoted. We are working to weaken the grip of these narratives on people’s minds and to chip away at what I call “witchcraft evangelism.” It does enormous damage and undermines our work. We also want people to recognize that Nollywood films and African movies are fiction, not fact.
The filmmakers reflect the myths and beliefs of society, but they are still telling stories, not recording reality. We want to help reorient society so that these movies are understood as cultural fiction. These are some of our successes, but also some of our challenges. Still, we see steady progress as more people begin to realize that something does not add up when it comes to witchcraft accusations. More groups are welcoming us and reaching out to cooperate, so that together we can address and dispel this phenomenon.
Jacobsen: Now, about specifics, in Owerri, Imo State, on September 2–3, we observed the International Day Against Witch Hunts. That was an event reaffirming material and psychosocial support. What was the big takeaway from that event this year?
Igwe: A lot. In Owerri, for the first time, we marched through the streets of the city, sharing flyers and speaking with people about the problem. We also visited the palace of the traditional ruler, Eze Clinton, who received us warmly and pledged his support to our campaign. That was an important milestone.
Another highlight was a presentation by our legal counsel, Mr. Okorie, on witchcraft accusations and the law. In Nigeria, accusing someone of witchcraft is a criminal offence. It is a form of criminal defamation, but most Nigerians are unaware of this—or if they are, they do not take it seriously, because their beliefs often outweigh what is written in the law. Mr. Okorie made it clear that even calling someone a witch can lead to prosecution. If this is done in a church or public gathering, the entire act is criminal.
He gave the example of a crusade organized in Imo State shortly after our event. The theme was “That Witch Must Die.” We reported it to the police, who summoned the pastor, but unfortunately did not prosecute him. Mr. Okorie explained to our participants that such gatherings are legally actionable, and anyone who participates in them could also be held liable. His legal perspective shocked many people, as they were unaware that the law was so clear on this matter.
We also had some victims from different communities share their experiences, which reinforced the urgency of our campaign.
We also heard from victims who recounted their stories and experiences. One woman in particular, Mrs. Regina, told us that after some people in her family died, she was forced to undergo a ritual. They bathed the corpse, washed the body, and gave her the water to drink as an “exoneration” ritual. She is one of the people we are supporting now, trying to provide her with all the necessary help to get back on her feet.
Another experience I had was visiting a street named after a victim of ritual killing, Ikechukwu Okoroho, who was murdered about 30 years ago. A street was named in his memory. I went to that street and to the scene where he was killed, according to reports. These are some of the key takeaways from the Owerri, Imo State event.
Jacobsen: There was also a case intervention in Ebonyi State on August 20, involving the banishment of Joseph Agwu from Unwuhu community. The case called on the state to prosecute the attackers, compensate the victim, and end the practice of banishment. Could you elaborate on that specific case?
Igwe: Yes, Joseph’s case is one of several in Ebonyi. He was accused of witchcraft and banished from his community. His property was destroyed, and he was forced to leave. We reached out to him, and he recounted his ordeal. We are appealing to the state authorities to step in and protect people like him.
Another successful intervention we made was in the case of Mr. Kingsley, who had also been accused. He was paraded through the streets, humiliated, and substances were poured over his body. When we got the information, we immediately contacted the police.
Thanks to that intervention, Kingsley is now back in his community. I met him recently, and he told me how happy and relieved he was. People now look at him with respect rather than the scorn he used to face. This was a real success story.
Of course, not all cases succeed. Sometimes incidents happen in rural communities where it is difficult for us to intervene. Accessing those areas can be dangerous—there are threats of beatings, mob attacks, or even killings. People in those communities often suspect that anyone investigating is there to help the police prosecute them. So yes, we have had some successes, but the challenges remain significant.
Jacobsen: There were also several roundtables. For example, in Ekiti State from August 19 to 21, there was a stakeholder roundtable aligned with the World Day Against Witch Hunts. There were also NHRC partnerships in Kano, Okoro, Ondo, and Yola, Adamawa. Across the year, there were several such meetings—on January 21, March 6, July 21, and August 19–21. What is the role of these roundtables, and what were the key takeaways from each?
Igwe: For the one we held in Yola early in the year, the big takeaway was that too often, when these cases are reported, nothing is done. They appear in the news and then disappear. Victims receive no help or support.
Since 2020, AfAW has been a game-changer. We step in on the side of the accused to support and empower them. In Yola, our message was clear: there is now an organization that stands for the accused. We introduced ourselves, explained what we do, and intervened in a specific case where a parent and his partner tortured a girl to death. The mother had been accused of witchcraft, and the children were said to have “inherited” it from her. The girl was tortured and died. We have been working hard to support the mother and her three surviving children, and to push for justice.
That was our first meeting in Yola, and like with many of these events, participants told us nobody else was doing what we are doing. We know why—few people have the conviction and understanding that we at AfAW bring. However, we made it clear there is now a place where the accused can seek support, and an organization keeping watch on these cases. That was our takeaway from Yola.
In Ondo, we also held an event and combined it with a radio program. A woman named Olaemi Ijogun attended after hearing us on the radio. She told us how she had been accused as a child and beaten. Her case was heartbreaking. She said that both she and her sister had been accused of being initiated into a coven when they were very young.
In Olaemi’s case, the accusations came from a relative who claimed to have seen her and her sister in a dream. The parents were told the girls were going to covens at night. As a result, they were not allowed to sleep. They were forced to kneel and raise their hands through the night because the parents believed that if they slept, they would travel spiritually to the coven. The girls were denied sleep for several nights.
The stigma followed Olaemi to school, where it negatively impacted her social life. She still breaks down when recounting the trauma, which she did at our event. She called on people to stop making accusations because they leave an indelible mark on the minds and psyches of children. Since then, she has been working with us to advocate against witchcraft accusations.
For instance, she joined us in Ekiti State during the World Day Against Witch Hunts event. There, we encountered a case where a 10-year-old girl accused her grandmother of initiating her into a coven and of spiritually murdering people. This accusation was made on the radio after a station invited the family to speak. As a result, the grandmother’s business collapsed, and she was ostracized; the community avoided her. We intervened to reassure her that she had no hand in such things.
The background is that the family’s youngest child, about two years old, had been sick since birth. The grandmother was blamed for the illness. When I interviewed the mother of the 10-year-old, she even told me that the grandmother had “taken away the intelligence” of the children, causing them to do poorly in school, and was also responsible for the family’s financial struggles. In other words, they blamed the grandmother for virtually every problem.
To address this, we provided the family with money to conduct a medical test on the child, so we can determine the real medical problem and treat it appropriately. This shows that we are not only holding events, but also taking practical steps to intervene. We extend solidarity by combining advocacy with direct support. We are helping the grandmother, the victim of the accusation, while also ensuring that the sick child receives medical treatment. These are some of the key outcomes from the Ekiti State event.
Jacobsen: How did the World Day Against Witch Hunts itself go?
Igwe: It was observed on August 10. That year it fell on a Sunday. In Nigeria, the best thing you can do on a Sunday is either go to church or stay at home. Suppose you organize anything else on that day. In that case, it is not likely to attract much participation—except for the few atheists and humanists in the country.
On August 10, the World Day Against Witch Hunts, I attended a church where the pastor regularly preaches against witch hunting. In our work, we identify religious leaders who speak out against these practices. It is not easy, of course, but we make every effort to find such churches. I was told about this one, contacted the pastor, and he confirmed that he preaches against witch hunting. So I went there to listen to his sermon. We also recorded it so that we could use it later to show other churches that this kind of preaching is possible and necessary.
It was a small church, with maybe 50 participants—tiny compared to the massive congregations you see in Nigeria, where tens or even hundreds of thousands gather. That probably explains why this church holds what you might call a minority position in the religious landscape. Still, that was where I spent the day.
Before and after August 10, we have continued organizing events in various states to remember victims of witch hunts and ritual attacks. It has gone well. People are coming out and saying, “At last, there is a space where we can feel vindicated, where we can share our stories in front of an audience that supports us, rather than seeing us as guilty.” That has been the spirit of these gatherings. In fact, we could not accommodate all the events in August, which is why some of them were pushed into September. For us at AfAW, the World Day Against Witch Hunts has not really ended. Our event this Saturday will conclude this year’s cycle of activities tied to that observance.
Jacobsen: Let us turn to the media side of things—ongoing public education, advocacy, op-eds, and briefings. Which news and opinion publications have been most effective in disseminating information about this campaign, the organization, and the harm caused by these superstitions?
Igwe: We have had coverage of our activities in several online and mainstream media outlets. Some journalists have even drawn our attention to cases in which we later intervened. Among Nigerian media organizations, I must mention Sahara Reporters, ThisDay, and The Eagle Online, which have been supportive.
We have also had coverage in other outlets, such as the Nigerian Tribune, Punch, and The Sun. Some of these online and print organizations have tried to highlight the work we are doing.
However, let me be clear—before now, media agencies have overwhelmingly been part of the problem. Their reporting on witchcraft accusations often reinforces the very narratives we are trying to dismantle. This is something I consistently point out to them during media interactions.
Many journalists still report accusations in sensational ways. They tell me the more spectacular, the better—for clicks and traffic. They call it “clickbait.” So, you see headlines like “Witch Crash-Lands” or “Bird-Woman Found in Village.” It is absolute nonsense, but it generates attention. Moreover, in their pursuit of attention, they misinform the public, mislead communities, and do real harm.
These reports are unprofessional and unethical. Journalism should be about reporting facts, and it should be balanced. Instead, in their quest for traffic, media houses end up endangering lives. For example, there was a radio program where a child accused her grandmother of initiating her into witchcraft. We intervened, and when we left, the station manager admitted to me, “Leo, it was this radio program that caused the problem.” He realized it had put an innocent woman in danger and destroyed her socially.
So yes, the media have been part of the problem. However, with the kind of engagement we are doing at the Advocacy for Alleged Witches (AfAW), some outlets are beginning to rethink. Some are realigning and realizing just how unprofessional and unethical their reporting has been. They are slowly starting to highlight our perspective. However, we still have a long way to go. Nigerian media organizations still thrive on sensationalism.
The media still thrives on sensational headlines—stories designed to attract attention and appeal to primitive superstitions that people find exciting. Slowly and steadily, some outlets are beginning to support what we are doing. However, there is still a tremendous amount of work ahead.
Another challenge is this: while media agencies are quick to publish sensational, false, and misleading reports about witchcraft—often for free—when we want to put forward our perspective, they demand large sums of money. Both online and broadcast outlets do this.
For example, if we want to appear on television, they charge between $500 and $1,000 just for the appearance. Additionally, you may need to travel, pay for flights, and cover accommodation costs. This makes enlightenment and advocacy extremely expensive, even though it is precisely what the country needs to counter these harmful narratives.
Jacobsen: Do you have any final points on that last topic?
Igwe: Yes, while a few media organizations are beginning to report witchcraft accusations more responsibly—rather than treating witchcraft itself as a fact or as a “certified” part of African culture—the progress is limited. Some outlets are starting to understand AfAW’s position and provide more balance. However, we are still far from the cultural shift we need. That kind of change will not happen through one report or even one event. It requires intensive public education and sustained enlightenment.
Unfortunately, in this area, many media stations have not been supportive. They are quick to publish sensational stories, like “an elderly woman turned into a bird” or “a witch crash-landed on her way to a meeting,” as was recently reported in Delta State. These kinds of stories get free publicity.
However, when AfAW attempts to purchase airtime to educate the public, we encounter significant costs. Media outlets charge us considerable amounts of money, making enlightenment campaigns very expensive. The imbalance is stark: free space for superstition, but costly barriers for rational education.
Meanwhile, churches and religious organizations that actively promote witchcraft narratives are given abundant airtime. They advertise events with themes like “That Witch Must Die” or “Exposing the Mysteries of Witchcraft.” These programs receive free promotion, which reinforces harmful beliefs.
By contrast, when we present our position—saying plainly that witchcraft is a myth—we are given little space, asked to pay heavily, and sometimes even put under pressure during media interviews. The pressure is on us to “prove” that something imaginary does not exist, instead of challenging those who claim it does.
The media landscape is still heavily skewed toward reinforcing witchcraft beliefs. We have not yet reached the paradigm shift where media establishments themselves start questioning and dismantling these narratives. That remains the challenge before us.
The cultural shift we need will only come when the media itself transforms. Until then, they will not welcome our programs in the way they should. Even when we pay for airtime, they often schedule us in the middle of the day, when people are busy at work. They refuse to give us prime slots in the evening or late at night—times when churches preach about witchcraft to audiences at home around the dinner table.
Without media on our side, we cannot fully succeed in making witch-hunting history in this region. That is why this work is so critical.
Jacobsen: There was a memorial action on August 29, connected to victims of ritual killings. You visited a hotel site linked to one of those incidents, to connect memory with today’s anti–witch hunt work. Could you explain what happened at that hotel, and how many victims are we talking about?
Igwe: I visited because of the incident that happened there in September 1996, almost 29 years ago. What happened then is still happening today. For example, earlier this year, in February 2025, in Lagos, a young man murdered his girlfriend, used an axe to break her head, and drained her blood into a calabash, supposedly for rituals. That case mirrors what happened at the Otokoto Hotel in 1996.
At Otokoto, the victim was an 11-year-old boy who sold peanuts on the streets. A hotel gardener lured him inside, gave him a drugged drink, and when the boy became unconscious, he cut off his head. The man was apprehended while attempting to deliver the head to someone who had ordered it for ritual purposes.
The news caused a massive uproar. There were riots in the city, and people began burning the houses of those suspected of being involved.
The people labelled as “ritualists,” in other words, those involved in ritual syndicates or racketeering, were the focus of that uproar. My visit to the Otokoto Hotel aimed to remind the people of Imo State that this practice has been ongoing for far too long and must come to an end.
The government seized the hotel property, and today it is used by the police. Not far from the police station, there is a street named after the young boy who was murdered. Those responsible were eventually arrested, and some received life imprisonment while others were sentenced to death.
I visited that property to show that the same problem we saw nearly three decades ago is still with us today—only in new forms. Now, people kill their girlfriends, relatives, or acquaintances for what they call organ harvesting. They believe specific organs can be used in rituals to produce wealth, success, or power.
The narratives of religion, miracles, magic, and supernatural intervention fuel these beliefs. All of them reinforce the idea that ritual killings can deliver prosperity. What we are confronting is a Herculean task—a complex, many-headed monster of superstition and fear. Only the flame of reason, compassion, critical thinking, and skeptical inquiry can provide hope for society and for the victims.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Leo.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Survivors Network of those Abused by Priests
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/07
Rev. Dr. John C. Lentz Jr. served over 30 years as Lead Pastor of Forest Hill Presbyterian Church in Cleveland Heights, Ohio. Known for passionate preaching, community leadership, and a commitment to justice and compassion, he profoundly shaped the Church’s mission before retiring in 2024 after a celebrated ministry. Lentz reflects on his 30-year tenure at Forest Hill Presbyterian Church, where he inherited the traumatic legacy of sexual abuse by a former associate pastor. Lentz details the Church’s response—early efforts at acknowledgment, limited legal options, and survivor support—highlighting the structural weaknesses in denominational accountability. He explores systemic patterns of abuse across denominations, including the role of clerical authority, enabling networks, and institutional cover-ups. Drawing from neuroscience, psychology, and theology, Lentz emphasizes the importance of independent investigations, seminary reform, and third-party oversight. He warns against simplistic narratives that scapegoat Catholicism alone and calls for nuanced, data-driven reform efforts across religious institutions. He discussed how virtues like compassion and forgiveness, without accountability, can become vulnerabilities. Both advocate for cultural and institutional reforms rooted in moral clarity, survivor support, and transparent justice processes. The dialogue ultimately calls for partnership—not polarization—in addressing clergy abuse.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, you are a former pastor at Forest Hill Presbyterian Church. What is the story there? We can use that as a context for a broader conversation about a wider phenomenon.
Rev. Dr. John Lentz: Yes. I served as pastor at Forest Hill Church for thirty years, from 1994 to 2024. During my final interview before being offered the position, the search committee told me something they felt I needed to know. They said, “John, we need to tell you this because it might affect your decision to come here.” They explained that a previous associate pastor had been involved in the sexual abuse of youth in the congregation.
That wasn’t comforting to hear. Here is what I learned so from personal knowledge: In 1977, Reverend Dale Small became the associate pastor at Forest Hill Church. He came from another congregation in the Detroit area of Michigan. His primary responsibilities were overseeing the confirmation program and leading retreat and camping ministries. He served in that role until 1981.
Afterward, he retired and was granted the honorary title of pastor emeritus. He moved to North Carolina following his retirement. In 1984, he organized a reunion-style camping trip for former youth members of Forest Hill Church in North Carolina. During that event, one former youth participant—by then in his twenties—experienced a resurgence of traumatic memories related to prior abuse. He left the trip and returned home.
Later that year, he and his parents sent a letter to the Church’s governing body (the session) reporting that Dale Small had sexually abused him. The letter also mentioned other possible victims, although it is unclear how many individuals were named or how those claims were verified.
When I joined the Church in 1994, ten years after that disclosure, I learned that the session at the time had responded by engaging a consultant—though I do not know their name—to assess what actions should be taken to support the congregation, particularly its youth. They also reportedly sent letters to families whose children had been part of the youth group or confirmation classes during that period, asking whether anything inappropriate had occurred.
It was reported that at least half a dozen boys came forward, identifying themselves as victims of abuse. Many of these boys came from homes where the father was absent or where the family structure had been disrupted. All of the reported victims were male.
Even years later, I encountered the impact of this traumatic history. One individual told me he had been abused not directly by Reverend Small but by someone who had themselves been abused and possibly groomed by Small. I also became close to someone a few years younger than me who eventually disclosed that he had been one of the victims. He confided in me and described the abuse in detail.
His account matched what is now known to be common patterns in clergy abuse cases: identifying vulnerable boys, assuming the role of a surrogate father figure, using pastoral authority to gain trust, showing excessive attention, and initiating inappropriate physical contact during church retreats—starting with massages and escalating to sexual abuse.
As more stories emerged, it was essential to support survivors in any way I could. I recall one conversation with a survivor in which I said, “Whatever you need, I will help. Let’s pursue justice if that’s what you want.” By that time, Reverend Small had passed away so that any legal recourse would have been limited. Still, the priority was to provide acknowledgment, support, and whatever healing was possible.
There was also a statute of limitations, and unfortunately, it was heartbreaking. The abuse survivor did not want to proceed. He still had such mixed and conflicted emotions about this man—someone he said he loved and who, he believed, loved him. You can imagine the emotional complexity and heartbreak that comes with hearing something like that.
Then Dale Small died, so pursuing anything in a legal sense became moot. I did ensure, however, that he was no longer listed as pastor emeritus. I also informed our local presbytery, which removed Dale Small from the rolls as a retired and honourably retired pastor.
I have probably left out many details, but that’s the general account. That part is fact—that is what I know to be true. What lies in the murkier areas—and this is what makes it so difficult—is that there were some alleged incidents of misconduct at Dale Small’s previous Church in Michigan. Now, my predecessor—whom I overall have great respect for and who was a prominent leader in this community—knew Dale Small personally. He was the one who called and invited him to serve at Forest Hill Church.
I cannot say with any degree of certainty, and I have no evidence, that he knew of the abuse or that he was abused. But, from what I understand, he may have been a classic enabler.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): NEXUSNewsfeed
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/25
Steven Janssens is a Belgian filmmaker and engineer known for his diverse career as a director, editor, and trainer. He gained recognition for documenting Crazy Money (2020), a film capturing the Eight project in Busibi, Uganda, where residents receive unconditional basic income. His extensive filmography includes the documentary Wardje (2004), Point Off U (2007), and contributions to Kongo (2010). Steven has worked on award-winning projects like Atoma by Brepols (2012) and web documentaries like Het Antwerpgevoel (2010), and most recent film Blind Spots (instagram: @blindspotsthefilm). Combining technical expertise and creative vision, Steven continues to explore impactful storytelling through innovative and socially conscious filmmaking. Janssens talks about collaborating with sociologist Maarten Goethals to provide unconditional cash transfers in impoverished African communities, including Uganda and the Democratic Republic of the Congo. Inspired by the transformative potential of basic income, Janssens produced Crazy Money, documenting their pilot project in Busibi, Uganda. By partnering with the University of Antwerp, Eight measured the program’s impact on education, healthcare, and entrepreneurship. Janssens emphasizes trust and autonomy, noting significant improvements in life satisfaction and community development. Eight’s efforts now expand to Côte d’Ivoire, addressing poverty, climate resilience, and gender equality through evidence-based, scalable interventions.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here with Steven Janssens, a Belgian documentary filmmaker who co-founded the nonprofit Eight, established in 2015. You founded this organization with sociologist Maarten Goethals. What was the original inspiration behind Eight, and why did you focus specifically on underserved communities in Uganda and the Democratic Republic of the Congo?Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): СокальINFO
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/14
Nicholas Wright is a neuroscientist and strategist who bridges brain science and national security. For more than a decade, he has advised the Pentagon’s Joint Staff and other U.S. agencies, as well as counterparts in the United Kingdom, on how human decision-making shapes deterrence and defense. His research explores how the brain constructs perception amid uncertainty, how moral emotions fuel cooperation and conflict, and how leadership transforms fear into purposeful action. Wright also examines the ethics of information operations, democratic resilience, and what he calls the “identity–culture spiral” that enables large-scale cooperation. His recent work, Warhead: How the Brain Shapes War and War Shapes the Brain, probes how cognitive science illuminates great-power competition and the enduring risk of nuclear escalation.
In this interview, Scott Douglas Jacobsen speaks with Wright about “neurostrategy”—the use of neuroscience to understand and influence nuclear and security decisions. Wright explains how perception is not reality but a brain-built model prone to deception; why 2014 marked a strategic inflection point with Russia and China; and how moral emotions and leadership determine a nation’s will to fight. He draws ethical boundaries for information operations in democracies and argues that internal cohesion matters more than foreign interference. His guiding principle: avoid losing in three ways—do not lose a conventional war (for instance, over Taiwan), do not decay from within, and do not fight a nuclear war. Across all three, Wright contends, strategic success begins with self-understanding.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was your inspiration for the work connecting neuroscience, security, and decision-making?
Nicholas Wright: Over ten years ago, I began applying new insights from neuroscience to decision-making about nuclear weapons—an enormously important area that had been neglected in public policy. When you consider atomic weapons, the goal is to influence how someone else will decide. If you are thinking about Vladimir Putin or Xi Jinping, you must consider how they make decisions about nuclear weapons, which involves understanding their thought processes and choices.
There are many sources of information, but the central fact is that they are human and thus have human brains. How do those brains work? For more than a decade, I have worked with the Pentagon’s Joint Staff and others to address that question.
They aim to understand how the human brain makes decisions. In turn, I gain perspective as a neuroscientist—insight into problems where the brain meets the real world in life-and-death situations. We’ve had a productive collaboration with military colleagues in the United States and the United Kingdom for many years.
Jacobsen: Another critical factor is the ten years of working across U.S. administrations: the first Trump administration, the Biden administration, and the current second Trump administration. Administrations matter because they provide direction—a vector—beyond the geopolitical and military context, alongside the science of how the brain can be used for good or ill. How have you oriented your advising and learning across different administrations? Many assume the key differences lie in political changes.
Wright: I have worked with the U.S. government since the second Obama term. However, the most significant drivers are external. I began this work at the tail end of the post-9/11 counterterrorism era and in 2014 on issues such as Israel–Palestine that dominated U.S. security thinking at the time. Then came Russia’s 2014 seizure and annexation of Crimea and the war in eastern Ukraine—often discussed in terms of “gray-zone” or hybrid tactics—followed by the full-scale invasion launched in 2022.
In 2014, we saw a turning point. Russia sent its so-called “little green men” into Crimea, and at the same time, China was shifting. It is difficult to pinpoint precisely when the change began, but it became apparent after Xi Jinping took office in 2013. By 2017, it was clear that he was steering China in a different direction—more expansionist abroad and more authoritarian at home. With both China and Russia, something new was happening.
Many in the American government and, like me, in advisory roles recognized that these were profound shifts. They marked a sea change in the external environment we had to contend with. It was no longer primarily about terrorism. The United States had once been so overwhelmingly militarily superior that it did not need to worry about peer competitors. That is no longer the case. The most significant shift has been the resurgence of great-power competition. The issue is less about changes in U.S. administrations and more about changes in global realities that every administration must confront.
Jacobsen: With perception under uncertainty, there are factors like the “fog of war.” Given the shortcuts in our sensory systems, how does uncertainty interact with perception in a war context, especially when so much is unknown and there are multiple dimensions to interpret?
Wright: The first thing to understand about perception is that our brains cannot process all the information constantly entering them. Each eye alone has tens of millions of light receptors, and in the center of the retina are millions dedicated to color and fine detail. Add hearing, taste, the position of every joint in the body, and the signals from the skin, and you realize the nervous system is bombarded with data. We cannot deal with that flood directly.
Instead, the brain uses a model of the world. Take vision as an example. You are not passively receiving information on some “television screen” in your head. You are actively constructing perception. What you see is not raw input—it is your brain’s best model of reality, assembled from incomplete and uncertain information.
We know that perception is a model of the world—a simulation that takes place inside the brain. For example, if you fix your eyes on one point in the center of your visual field, the edges of your vision look full of color. But this cannot be raw input, because the periphery of your retina lacks the receptors for color vision. The brain is filling in the gaps, creating a simulation. That model is what you perceive.
In the context of the “fog of war,” this means the model can be fooled or tricked. It must also constantly manage uncertainty. The model is controlled in two ways. First, it is anchored to reality through sensory input—your eyes, ears, and so on. Second, it is anchored by expectations about the world. For example, you expect a face to have two eyes, a nose, and a mouth. These anchors keep the model from collapsing into random hallucinations.
Still, the model is always an approximation, always one take on reality, never a perfect representation. Uncertainty is built in. And beyond perception, other brain systems—such as motivation, reward, and moral emotions—shape how we trust, cooperate, and respond to conflict.
Jacobsen: That brings me to status and dominance cues, as well as material incentives. How do moral emotions play into those dynamics? For instance, if there is a dominance-based conflict with potential for escalation, but a moral emotion—say, the sense of unfairness—enters the equation, can it buffer against the drive for dominance? Can moral emotions reduce conflict or support the role of a third-party intermediary, such as peacekeeping forces, to de-escalate tensions?
Wright: That is a crucial point. Just as your perceptual model simulates the world, your brain also runs models for emotions. These models help regulate how we interpret fairness, unfairness, and cooperation. They can serve as buffers against escalation by introducing constraints that are not purely material or status-based. In other words, moral emotions can redirect or soften conflict dynamics in ways that spreadsheets of costs and incentives alone cannot capture.
Rapid emotional responses, such as fear or anger, enable us to function in uncertain environments and respond appropriately. Without fear, for example, we would get into serious trouble; we need it to cope with rapidly changing conditions. The same applies to social motivations, such as the visceral rejection of unfairness. That instinct wells up inside us when we or those we care about are treated unjustly.
At the same time, we have other systems for planning. We can create forward-looking models of the world, projecting into the future in ways similar to planning moves in a chess game. In reality, the brain holds many different models, and these models work together like an orchestra. Fear might be the percussion, beating insistently in the background. Models of other people’s intentions—whether to cooperate or compete—might be the violins. Each system contributes its part.
Together they produce the “symphony” of life. Sometimes one section dominates, while at other times another does, but overall, they must remain coordinated. At the highest level, this orchestra is conducted by the frontal pole—the region just behind the forehead. That area allows us to reflect on our own thinking: to assess certainty, to build a model of ourselves. It helps keep the orchestra in balance.
‘Warhead: How the Brain Shapes War and War Shapes the Brain’ by Nicholas Wright. 390 pp. St. Martin’s Press
Jacobsen: What about senses of identity? Not necessarily religious, political, or ethnic identity in detail, but how do these feed into the brain’s mechanisms of in-group and out-group formation, the functions of bonding, and the tools of dehumanization in politics?
Wright: Humans can create groups far larger than those of any other primate. Chimpanzees, for instance, can manage groups of several hundred individuals. Humans, by contrast, can sustain groups numbering in the thousands, such as a tribe, or even in the billions, as with modern nations like China or India. The question is: how do humans form and maintain groups on such a remarkable scale?
This is a kind of social alchemy. In the Middle Ages, alchemists tried to turn base metals into gold. What humans do is something more powerful: we create coherent groups—groups stable enough to work together toward shared goals, providing security and cooperation on scales no other primate can match.
How do we achieve this? Through what I would call an identity–culture spiral. Individuals form identities—answering the question “Who am I?”—and those identities are reinforced and made consistent through culture. At the same time, individuals shape culture. Together, this spiral enables the emergence of large, coherent groups.
When discussing identity in the brain, there are several layers. First, there is the embodied self—the sense of being a human body, looking out from behind your eyes. Second, there is the narrative self—the story we construct about where we came from and where we are going. This narrative can be profoundly reshaped.
After World War II, for example, many Germans who had been active Nazis had to rewrite their identities using earlier parts of their lives to reconstruct themselves as citizens of a new West Germany, now conservative members of a democratic society.
A third layer is the social self, which involves belonging to a particular group. That might be a military unit, a social club, or a sports team. This identity tells you who you are by teaching you the rules of your group. Yankees fans, for example, wear certain clothes, use certain expressions, and care about particular things. At the same time, it defines the out-groups—those you expect to learn less from and often to compete against.
The embodied self, the narrative self, and the social self all work together to help us answer the central question: Who am I? That, in turn, is what enables humans to perform this remarkable social alchemy—creating coherent groups on a vast scale. Through the creation of shared identities and cultures, we form coherent groups. Those groups enable us to be the thinking, cooperative animals that we are.
Jacobsen: These dynamics seem less relevant to those in the Navy or Air Force, and more critical for soldiers on the ground. You’ve written about the experiences of American and Chinese soldiers, particularly how leadership and morale factor into this. I’m not speaking of propaganda or rallying cries, but of how proper leadership can inspire individuals to override the amygdala’s primary fear response and instead make secondary or tertiary responses in the midst of combat, or even in anticipation of battle.
Wright: That can be reframed as the question: why do humans stand and fight instead of running away? In many situations, the more natural response would be flight. So why stand and fight? In my book, I look at examples such as the Chinese troops in World War II. During the Battle of Shanghai in 1937, large numbers of Chinese soldiers stood their ground against the Japanese invasion.
Part of this comes down to overcoming fear responses—not eliminating them, but controlling and harnessing them. Fear is valid if appropriately trained. Good training can transform fear, which might otherwise lead to panic and retreat, into a channeled response that enables soldiers to fight effectively.
Leadership is always central. Humans inevitably generate leaders because we are animals that form large groups through what I described as the identity–culture spiral, or social alchemy. Within these groups, leadership emerges, and people follow. This is built into how our brains operate.
Consider Admiral Horatio Nelson, the greatest naval commander of the age of sail. Contemporary accounts said he “infused his spirit” into his men. This meant he could create a model of the world and communicate it to others, enabling them to achieve things they could not have accomplished on their own. Leaders assume responsibility for others, communicate a clear vision, and provide their followers with a sense of purpose.
People follow leaders for two key reasons: dominance and prestige. Some follow those who are stronger. Others follow because of prestige—the recognition that a leader has knowledge or skills worth learning from. Humans are not especially strong compared to chimpanzees, but our survival depends on learning from others. That means prestige-based leadership is crucial.
So, there will always be leaders and followers. With practical training and capable leadership, those leaders can inspire people to stand and fight even in the face of overwhelming fear.
Jacobsen: Freedom House has noted that democratic and autocratic tendencies exist on a spectrum, shifting over decades. They do not simply label countries as “democratic” or “autocratic,” but instead chart where societies fall along that spectrum. Over the past decade, their data shows a decline in democratic tendencies worldwide. This raises a concern: neurostrategy could be used by actors with constrictive aims, limiting human possibilities, or by those with expansive aims, enhancing them. In terms of balancing neuroscience, security policy, and ethics, what are the red lines? How do we prevent manipulation of citizens while still enhancing human security?
Wright: You’re right that over the last fifteen years, many indicators show a reduction in democracy across several countries. But if you take the longer view, democracy has always advanced in waves. In the early nineteenth century, democracies emerged, then receded. After World War I, there was a rise in democratic states, followed by a collapse during the rise of Nazi Germany and other authoritarian regimes. In the 1980s, a surge in democracies occurred. We are currently living through what some call a “democratic recession.”
So, yes, I agree that over the past fifteen years we’ve seen a reduction in democracy in many parts of the world. The question, as you’ve framed it, is about red lines—how to use knowledge responsibly, particularly from neuroscience and security policy, without violating human rights.
I’m cautiously optimistic. While we are in a democratic recession, history shows that societies can reverse such trends when they make good choices. We’ve done it before. If we prioritize freedom and democratic values, we can expand them again. The red lines, then, involve ensuring that any use of neuroscience or security policy strengthens human security and freedom, rather than constraining or manipulating citizens.
Jacobsen: So let’s return to red lines. I mean specifically: with a broader neuro-based strategy, how should we set boundaries to ensure that knowledge is used to enhance human security rather than to manipulate citizens?
Wright: Take information operations, for example. These efforts involve influencing how people make decisions. In democratic societies—such as Canada, the United States, and the United Kingdom—we must be cautious. These governments already have powerful bureaucracies capable of influencing others, but the key red line is to keep those capabilities focused externally rather than internally. In other words, we should avoid turning those tools inward against our own citizens.
Another point: while China and Russia invest heavily in information operations designed to influence our societies, the bigger danger comes from within. If our democracies are going to weaken, it will not primarily be because of what they do—it will be because of the internal problems we create ourselves. The way we manage our own societies matters far more than foreign influence campaigns.
Jacobsen: Let’s close with something forward-looking. Suppose a minister or general reads Warhead and becomes interested. What policy changes should they make first? And once those policies are in place, how should success be measured reliably and validly over time?
Wright: That’s a great question. For policymakers today, success is about building societies that can thrive over the long haul. We are in an extended era of strategic competition, and winning that era is not about short-term battles. It’s about decades of resilience. To do that, we need to avoid losing in three critical ways…
There’s no simple answer about which of these three we must prioritize—we must avoid losing in all of them. First, we must avoid losing a conventional war, such as one over Taiwan. That is now a real possibility; the West could lose such a conflict. To prevent that, we need to harness our understanding of how the brain works. So we can, for instance, seize the initiative of surprise, cultivate superior will to fight, and manipulate adversaries’ perceptions better than they manipulate ours.
Second, we must avoid losing domestically. Our societies could decay from within. To counter this, we need to ensure our societies remain healthy. This means preventing information operations from being directed inward, against our own citizens, and recognizing that the flourishing of our societies is ultimately more important than anything attempted by external actors, such as China or Russia.
Third, we must avoid losing in a nuclear war. It does not matter how many casualties the other side suffers; if tens of millions of Americans, British, or Canadians die in a nuclear exchange, then we have lost. We need nuclear weapons to deter others–and the goal must be to prevent atomic war.
I am optimistic that greater self-knowledge—understanding ourselves as humans with brains that work in predictable ways—can help us navigate all three of these existential risks. If we do that, I am confident we can endure and thrive in this new era of competition.
Jacobsen: Nick, thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate it.
Wright: Brilliant, excellent. Thank you so much.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): СокальINFO
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/10/06
Fabiano F. Santos is a Brazilian theoretical physicist whose research focuses on modified gravity, holography, and black hole physics. He is based at UEMASUL in Imperatriz and earned his Ph.D. in Physics from the Federal University of Paraíba in 2020. Santos investigates how Horndeski scalar–tensor extensions of general relativity alter the behavior of black holes, braneworlds, and boundary conformal field theories. His research spans topics such as AdS/BCFT correspondence, holographic entanglement entropy, complexity, transport coefficients, and Lifshitz black branes. Widely cited, his publications explore quantum information, thermodynamics, and condensed-matter analogs within the framework of general relativity.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is Horndeski gravity in plain language?
Fabiano F. Santos: Horndeski gravity is a theory of gravity that extends Einstein’s general relativity by incorporating additional terms into the equations, enabling more intricate interactions between gravity and matter. It’s often used to explore how gravity behaves in extreme conditions, like near black holes or in the early universe.
Jacobsen: What problem does your research try to solve?
Santos: The research aims to understand how gravity, quantum mechanics, and thermodynamics interact in extreme environments, like black holes or the early universe, and to explore how these insights can help explain the fundamental laws of nature.
Jacobsen: Why use black holes to study the physics of materials?
Santos: Black holes are like “natural laboratories” for testing extreme physics. Using a principle called holography, we can study how black holes behave and use that knowledge to model the behavior of materials, especially those with complex quantum properties, such as superconductors or strange metals.
Jacobsen: What is AdS/BCFT?
Santos: AdS/BCFT (Anti-de Sitter/Boundary Conformal Field Theory) is a framework in theoretical physics that connects gravity in a curved spacetime (AdS) to quantum systems on the boundary of that spacetime. It’s a tool for studying how quantum systems behave when they have boundaries or edges.
Jacobsen: What is the key new insight from your AdS/BCFT research?
Santos: The research demonstrates how boundaries in quantum systems can impact their overall behavior, offering new approaches to modeling edge effects in materials or quantum systems using gravity.
Jacobsen: What is the shear viscosity in these models?
Santos: Shear viscosity measures how easily a fluid flows when a force is applied to it. In these models, it’s calculated using holography and often reveals universal properties of quantum fluids, like the ratio of viscosity to entropy density.
Jacobsen: When does the KSS bound fail in your results?
Santos: The KSS bound, which sets a lower limit on the ratio of viscosity to entropy density, can fail in systems with strong quantum effects or in theories with modified gravity, like Horndeski gravity.
Jacobsen: What does a “probe string” measure physically?
Santos: A probe string is a tool in holography that measures how particles or forces behave in a quantum system, like how charges move in a material or how forces act between particles.
Jacobsen: What do Lifshitz spacetimes let you test?
Santos: Lifshitz spacetimes enable the study of systems where time and space behave differently, which is helpful for modeling materials with unusual quantum properties, such as those near quantum critical points.
Jacobsen: How do Horndeski terms change black hole thermodynamics?
Santos: Horndeski terms modify the equations governing black holes, leading to changes in their temperature, entropy, and how they radiate energy, which can reveal new physics beyond Einstein’s theory.
Jacobsen: What real-world signals could test predictions?
Santos: Signals like gravitational waves, black hole shadows, or unusual patterns in cosmic radiation could test predictions from these models. In materials, experiments on quantum systems might reveal similar effects.
Jacobsen: How does entanglement entropy help “see” inside black holes?
Santos: Entanglement entropy measures the amount of quantum information shared between different parts of a system. In black holes, it helps us understand how information is stored and processed, offering clues about their internal structure.
Jacobsen: What does “holographic complexity” measure?
Santos: Holographic complexity measures how difficult it is to reconstruct the quantum state of a system, such as a black hole, using the smallest possible set of instructions. It’s a way to quantify the “computational difficulty” of a system.
Jacobsen: How do your models produce ferromagnetism or paramagnetism?
Santos: By introducing specific fields or interactions in the holographic models, the system can mimic the behavior of magnetic materials, showing how spins align (ferromagnetism) or respond to external fields (paramagnetism).
Jacobsen: What is a geometric Josephson junction?
Santos: A geometric Josephson junction is a theoretical model in which two quantum systems are connected by a “bridge” in spacetime, allowing quantum effects such as tunneling to occur, similar to how real Josephson junctions function in superconductors.
Jacobsen: Why study domain walls and thick branes?
Santos: Domain walls and thick branes are structures that separate different regions in spacetime or materials. Studying them helps us understand phase transitions, like how materials change from one state to another (e.g., solid to liquid).
Jacobsen: Which result is most ready for experimental checks?
Santos: The predictions about shear viscosity and the KSS bound could be tested in experiments on quantum fluids or ultracold atoms, which mimic the conditions described by the models.
Jacobsen: What is the most complex technical challenge now?
Santos: The most challenging aspect is solving the complex equations in these models, especially when incorporating effects such as Horndeski terms or Lifshitz spacetimes, which necessitate advanced numerical techniques.
Jacobsen: Which collaboration most influenced this line of research?
Santos: Collaborations between string theorists, condensed matter physicists, and gravitational physicists have been the most influential, as they bring together expertise from different fields to tackle these problems.
Jacobsen: What is the one-sentence takeaway you give to non-physicists?
Santos: We utilize black holes and gravity as tools to understand the intricate and beautiful workings of the universe, from the tiniest particles to the largest cosmic structures.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Fabiano.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen
In-Sight Publishing, Fort Langley, British Columbia, Canada
Correspondence: Scott Douglas Jacobsen (Email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com)
Received: September 20, 2025
Accepted: October 8, 2025
Published: October 8, 2025
Abstract
This interview examines how artificial intelligence is reshaping schooling through the lens of Norwegian educator Tor Arne Jørgensen. He identifies five acute pressures—assessment integrity, homework authenticity, critical use, shortcut-seeking, and loss of personal development—and outlines dual responses: immediate safeguards (assessment redesign, use-policies, and targeted detection) and a long-term pivot to digital literacy, critical thinking, creativity, ethics, and collaboration. Jørgensen frames the teacher’s “value-add” as pedagogical leadership, relational trust, ethical reasoning, and higher-order cognition—capacities AI cannot replace. He details the Norwegian Directorate for Education and Training’s stance, including stricter 2025 exam rules, and argues for diversified, process-oriented evaluation. The conversation addresses inequities driven by infrastructure and competence gaps, calls for coherent training and governance, and surfaces ethical risks such as dependency, cognitive atrophy, safety illusions, and social isolation. Jørgensen proposes a student-led global pilot for evaluating educational AI and defines success in human terms: intellectual independence, narrowed equity gaps, and citizens capable of democratic participation alongside AI.
Keywords: Academic integrity in AI, AI literacy across stakeholders, Assessment redesign with AI, Cognitive development and AI, Digital equity in education, Education scenarios for 2035, Ethical risks of AI, Global governance of EdTech, High-IQ community responsibilities, Mental health in schools, Teacher role evolution, Vendor evaluation and transparency
Introduction
Artificial intelligence is no longer a thought experiment in education; it is a daily condition in classrooms. In this interview, Norwegian educator Tor Arne Jørgensen maps the pressures that AI introduces into the core activities of schooling—testing, homework, learning processes, and identity formation—and argues that the response must be both practical and philosophical. Practically, schools must secure academic integrity and update assessment so that products reflect student understanding rather than machine output. Philosophically, they must re-center education on the cultivation of human judgment, creativity, and ethical reasoning.
Jørgensen situates his perspective within current Norwegian policy, noting the Norwegian Directorate for Education and Training’s principles that keep teachers as pedagogical leaders, require subject-relevant AI use to be declared, and tighten centrally administered examinations in 2025. Against that backdrop, he describes his school’s two-track approach: short-term measures (clear guidelines, detection where necessary, diversified assessments) and a long-term strategy that builds digital literacy and critical thinking while privileging uniquely human capacities—creativity, ethical discernment, collaboration—over mere task completion.
Central to his argument is a reframing of the teacher’s role. The teacher is not an information courier displaced by algorithms but a learning architect whose irreplaceable work is relational, contextual, and ethical: reading classrooms in real time, scaffolding intellectual risk, modelling critical inquiry into AI outputs, and designing experiences that lead from answers to understanding. In Jørgensen’s account, AI can amplify this human work when subordinated to clear pedagogical aims, but it can also erode it when schools mistake efficiency for learning.
The interview also probes the equity fault lines of AI adoption. Resource disparities—in devices, connectivity, IT support, and teacher training—threaten to produce an educational two-tier system within and between municipalities. Jørgensen argues for coherent training, privacy-by-design governance, transparent vendor evaluation, and shared responsibility among teachers, parents, and leadership. He warns of ethical risks—student dependency on AI, cognitive weakening from shortcut culture, safety oversimplifications, and reduced face-to-face interaction—and proposes a student-led, globally representative pilot to evaluate educational AI on governance as well as learning. Success, he contends, cannot be measured by platform metrics, but by whether graduates retain intellectual independence, social empathy, and democratic agency in an AI-suffused world.
Main Text (Interview)
Interviewer: Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Interviewee: Tor Arne Jørgensen
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are the top AI-driven pressures your school faces?
Tor Arne Jørgensen: We face five main challenges that are changing how we must think about learning and assessment.
Tests and assessments
The biggest challenge is ensuring that students don’t use AI during tests and exams. This isn’t just about cheating, but about knowing that results actually show the student’s own knowledge and skills. We need to find new ways of assessment that make AI less relevant, or we must learn to accept that traditional test formats become less reliable.
Homework and assignments
Outside the classroom, we have little control. The risk is great that students let AI do the work for them. This weakens the learning process and gives a misleading picture of the student’s development. We need to rethink what kind of assignments we give, and how we follow up on work done at home.
Critical use of AI
Students must learn to evaluate the quality of the answers AI provides. Without critical thinking, they risk accepting incorrect or incomplete information. Here we have a pedagogical task: teaching students when AI is useful, and when it isn’t.
AI as a shortcut
Many students are tempted to rely on AI for quick solutions instead of doing the work themselves. This undermines the development of important skills like problem-solving, reflection, and independent thinking. We must help students understand the difference between getting an answer and understanding a problem.
Personal development
When students hand over their work to AI, they lose the opportunity to develop their own abilities. This can weaken creativity and the ability to express themselves. Take writing as an example: Someone who doesn’t write their own texts never develops a personal voice. This is perhaps the most important challenge – that we risk losing something fundamentally human in the learning process.
Jacobsen: How are you prioritizing responses?
Jørgensen: I’ll give you a two-part answer: first, how the Norwegian Directorate for Education and Training approaches AI in schools, then how we tackle these challenges at our school.
The official guidelines
The Directorate has established some clear principles. Teachers must remain the pedagogical leaders – AI cannot take over that role. Any use of AI must serve curriculum goals and be relevant to the subject matter. Most importantly, schools must develop their own local guidelines rather than follow a one-size-fits-all approach.
On assessment and academic integrity, the reality is stark: AI changes everything about how we evaluate student work, particularly written assignments. The Directorate recommends diversifying our assessment methods – more oral exams, process documentation, practical tasks – to reduce opportunities for cheating. Students need to learn critical AI use, including understanding sources, privacy concerns, and copyright issues.
For exams in 2025, the rules are strict. AI generation is completely prohibited on centrally administered written exams. They’ve removed preparation periods in several subjects and restricted permitted aids. Getting caught using AI can result in exam annulment.
But it’s not all restrictions. The Directorate sees pedagogical potential in AI for planning, differentiation, and feedback. The key principle is that AI should strengthen the teacher’s role, not replace it. Students can use AI when it’s subject-relevant, but they must declare when and how they used it.
Our school’s approach
We’ve divided our response into immediate needs and long-term strategy.
In the short term, we’re developing new assessment methods that are less vulnerable to AI cheating. We’re implementing detection tools where necessary and creating clear, practical guidelines for AI use.
Our long-term focus is different. Digital literacy and critical thinking have become our highest priority because these give students the tools to navigate an AI world successfully. We’re working to integrate AI as a learning tool, but in pedagogically sound ways. Most importantly, we’re focusing on skills AI cannot replace: creativity, ethical reasoning, and collaboration.
Our philosophy is balanced. We don’t ban AI, but we educate about it. We teach students when and how AI can be used constructively. We emphasize process over product in our assessments and strengthen oral and practical evaluation methods.
Teacher development is crucial. We prioritize building competency among our staff so they can safely guide students through this new landscape. We create space for experimentation and learning.
Our main principle is simple: we cannot fight AI, so we must teach students to live and work with it in ways that strengthen their development as thinking, critical human beings.
Jacobsen: How do you define the teacher’s value-add in a classroom with AI?
Jørgensen: The fundamental shift
We need to be honest about what’s happening. We have moved from being lecturers to observers, and now we serve as facilitaJørgensens of the right approach and process of understanding information. This isn’t a loss of status – it’s an evolution toward something more sophisticated and more essentially human.
Where teachers add irreplaceable value
There are four areas where no AI can match what a skilled teacher brings to learning.
First is pedagogical leadership and human judgment. We understand each student’s developmental path, their emotional landscape, their particular way of learning. We make real-time decisions based on classroom dynamics and those unexpected moments when learning suddenly clicks. We take AI’s output and shape it to fit what this specific student needs at this specific moment.
Second is our relational capacity. We build the trust networks and motivational structures that make authentic learning possible. We help students regulate their emotions when learning gets difficult. We create the psychological safety that lets students take intellectual risks. No algorithm can do this work.
Third is teaching critical thinking and ethical reasoning. Students need to learn how to question, evaluate, and synthesize what AI produces. They need to see us model responsible AI use. They need to develop digital citizenship and understand AI’s limitations and biases. This is fundamentally human work.
Fourth is fostering creative problem-solving and higher-order thinking. We design learning experiences that leverage uniquely human capabilities: collaborative innovation, creative synthesis, navigating ethical dilemmas. We help students connect abstract concepts to lived experience and find meaning across disciplines.
The new teacher identity
The teacher’s role has evolved from being a walking encyclopedia to becoming a sophisticated learning architect. In AI-supported classrooms, we become even more essential as cognitive coaches, teaching students how to think with and through AI. We become wisdom integrators, connecting information to insight, data to understanding. We remain the human connection anchors, providing social-emotional foundations that no technology can replace.
The strategic reality
AI doesn’t threaten our value – it amplifies it. We move from information transmission to wisdom cultivation. From standardized delivery to personalized learning orchestration. From isolated practice to collaborative knowledge construction.
The core of our work remains unchanged: transforming learning into human flourishing through pedagogical expertise, relational intelligence, and wisdom cultivation that no algorithm can replicate. That’s where our irreplaceable value lies.
Jacobsen: In five to ten years, will we still need teachers? If so, which functions can AI not replace?
Jørgensen: The relationship crisis we’re facing
We’re seeing something alarming: school avoidance has truly skyrocketed. As educators, we spend increasing amounts of our time on relationship building with students who desperately need human connection. We’re creating safe social environments where learning can actually happen. We’re managing school-home collaboration with parents who expect us to deliver a complete package from A to Z.
These human facJørgensens change almost hour by hour. AI cannot provide quick-fix solutions for this because it requires the ability to read students and see their changing needs throughout the day. That demands human intuition and adaptability.
The reality of our work
No two days are alike in education. Throughout a single day, we must process ongoing information immediately and handle it differently based on varying circumstances. This real-time adaptation and contextual decision-making goes far beyond what any algorithm can manage.
Just today at work, we discussed the importance of being source-critical and not letting ChatGPT do assignments for students. The answers come from uncertain sources, and ChatGPT doesn’t highlight any source criticism in the process. This is where the teacher becomes crucial – recognizing when answers are incorrect and understanding that students who rely on AI will face poor grades, if the plagiarism check doesn’t catch the cheating first and lead to failure.
Teaching students to think about AI
This highlights a crucial function: developing students’ critical thinking about AI itself. Students need guides who can help them understand when and how to use AI, recognize its limitations and biases, and maintain their own cognitive abilities.
The cognitive risk
I’m concerned about the risk of weakening the brain’s ability to function – that cognitive abilities could diminish over time, leading to intellectual dumbing down by constantly chasing easy solutions instead of doing thorough work independently. It’s like sitting down and not using your body; it deteriorates tremendously after a while, and you find yourself unable to perform even the simplest tasks.
This is what AI fundamentally cannot replace: the development of human cognitive resilience and deep thinking skills.
Going back to basics
To prevent what we’re seeing happen with AI use, we’re providing physical books and having students respond in analog formats, as our generation did, rather than surrendering completely to the digital world. This represents the teacher’s role as curator of learning experiences – knowing when technology serves learning and when it hinders it.
The tool perspective
AI is a tool, so let us treat it as a tool. Use it when it’s appropriate, and put it away when it’s not absolutely required. This balanced approach requires human judgment, wisdom, and the ability to make contextual decisions about when technology enhances learning and when human-centered approaches work better.
The essential teacher
While AI will transform education, the core human elements remain irreplaceably human: emotional intelligence, relationship building, real-time adaptation, critical thinking guidance, and the wisdom to know when to use technology and when to step away from it. Teachers who embrace this evolution while maintaining focus on human development won’t just remain relevant – they’ll become more essential than ever.
Jacobsen: How should schools redesign assessment and academic integrity?
Jørgensen: Rethinking how we measure learning
We must be honest about what’s happening to traditional assessment. The old methods are becoming unreliable because students can easily cheat their way to artificially high results. We need to restructure our entire assessment methodology.
Instead of clinging to outdated forms, we should focus on more varied approaches: project assessments that show real understanding, oral assessments where students must demonstrate their thinking in real time, and authentic assessments that mirror situations they’ll actually face in the world.
Continuous assessment throughout the school year should become our preference. This gives us a realistic picture of student development rather than relying on high-stakes moments that can be easily gamed.
Working with AI, not against it
Schools must acknowledge that artificial intelligence is here to stay. Fighting this technology is pointless. We should embrace it as the fantastic tool it is.
But we must learn to use it sensibly. We cannot put our own brains on ice and leave everything to AI models like ChatGPT. Students must do the groundwork themselves and then get help refining their work using AI. That’s the difference between learning with AI and letting AI learn instead of you.
The importance of mental exercise
We must remember that our brain needs stimulation, just as our body needs training to stay optimal. As a teacher, my goal is to inspire students to maintain their curiosity and learn that the journey toward becoming better lies in meeting challenges with curiosity and wonder – not running away from them.
Think of it like sports: to become a good football player, it doesn’t help to sit on the bench or skip training sessions. There’s significant work required before you see results, and the same applies to our brain. But if you persevere, the results will come – that’s guaranteed.
Students need to understand this fundamental truth: cognitive strength, like physical strength, comes from consistent effort and challenge. AI can be a training partner, but it cannot do the training for you.
The path forward
Schools must modernize both what and how we assess, while maintaining high standards for learning and integrity. This means being strategic about when we use technology and when we deliberately step away from it. It means creating assessments that value the thinking process as much as the final product.
The goal isn’t to make things easier – it’s to make learning more authentic and more aligned with how students will actually need to think and work in their futures.
Jacobsen: How do resource disparities between schools shape AI adoption?
Jørgensen: The infrastructure reality
The main challenge is technological infrastructure, and it’s creating a troubling divide. Schools with solid finances hold significant advantages through new devices, better internet connections, and top-tier IT support. Meanwhile, economically weaker schools struggle with outdated equipment and lacking competence.
This isn’t just about having newer computers. It’s about whether schools can actually participate in the digital transformation that AI demands.
The competence gap
Affluent schools can invest in comprehensive teacher training supported by dedicated IT coordinaJørgensens. This creates clear differences between private schools and municipal schools that are currently struggling considerably.
When teachers don’t have the support they need to understand and integrate new technologies, students suffer. You can’t teach what you don’t understand, and you can’t guide students through AI challenges if you’re fighting with basic technical issues.
Political failures
I have to be direct about this: the current government has drastically deprioritized the school secJørgensen over the past four years, bringing many schools to the brink of collapse. This contrasts sharply with the party’s stated support for strong education policy.
We see the consequences daily. Schools are making impossible choices between basic maintenance and investing in the future. How can we prepare students for an AI world when we can’t even ensure reliable internet connections?
Municipal lottery
There are significant variations between municipalities in school investment. Some make necessary investments in competence and equipment, while others simply don’t receive sufficient state support to ensure optimal learning for students.
Your postal code shouldn’t determine the quality of your education, but that’s increasingly what we’re seeing. A student in a wealthy municipality gets cutting-edge technology and well-trained teachers, while a student just a few kilometers away struggles with outdated equipment.
The generational cost
Insufficient investment in the coming generation means students are not adequately prepared after completing primary education. When increased investment in private schools draws funds from municipal schools without government intervention, we’re creating a two-tiered system that betrays our egalitarian values.
The urgency
All of Norwegian education must be secured with necessary resources now to avoid falling behind in competence development, essential equipment, and competent IT support. We cannot afford to have some schools racing ahead into the AI era while others are left behind with yesterday’s tools.
This isn’t just about fairness – it’s about national competitiveness and ensuring every Norwegian student can participate fully in the future we’re creating.
Jacobsen: What training, professional standards, and governance structures should exist for responsible AI use?
Jørgensen: The training we desperately need
In primary education, we must focus on teacher training in AI tools and their pedagogical use. This isn’t optional anymore. We need student education in AI literacy as part of the curriculum, teaching critical thinking about and with content that AI generates. Students and we as educaJørgensens must demonstrate digital judgment and source criticism.
But here’s the challenge: we’re trying to teach something that’s evolving faster than our ability to understand it.
Creating practical frameworks
For practical guidelines in primary schools, we need clear rules for when and how students should work with AI, and which tasks can ensure a reliable assessment foundation. This carries over into present and future assessment forms with AI use in schools. Privacy protection must be built in from the start.
We cannot wing this. Students need consistent expectations across subjects and grade levels.
The shared responsibility
This work requires shared responsibility between teachers, parents, and school leadership. We must examine the national frameworks that the Norwegian Directorate for Education and Training must incorporate as part of the subject curriculum, in addition to competency goals in each subject area. We need clarity on how examinations should function within these conditions.
Parents need to understand what we’re trying to achieve. School leadership needs to support teachers with resources and time. Teachers need to step up and learn, even when it’s uncomfortable.
The impossible task
Here’s where I’ll be completely honest: we must prepare students for what will meet them when they enter the job market, which is incredibly challenging because development is moving much faster today than ever before.
I must personally say that I almost don’t know how to approach this situation. The dissolution of familiar structures happens as quickly as new ones take their place. Previously, we could aim for how we thought the market would be for those entering it in 5-10 years, but today that approach won’t work due to rapid changes.
Teaching adaptability
So what do we do? We focus on what remains constant: the ability to learn, to adapt, to think critically, to collaborate, to solve problems creatively. We teach students how to learn continuously rather than trying to predict what they’ll need to know.
We prepare them for uncertainty by making them comfortable with uncertainty. We give them tools for thinking, not just knowledge for regurgitating.
This might be the most honest thing I can say: we’re all figuring this out together, and that’s okay. What matters is that we’re doing it thoughtfully, deliberately, and with our students’ best interests at heart.
Jacobsen: Which ethical risks concern you most?
Jørgensen: The dependency crisis
Students are becoming dependent on AI to complete tasks across all subjects, which fundamentally undermines the development of independent problem-solving skills. This isn’t just about cheating – it’s about students losing the ability to struggle productively with difficult problems.
What’s particularly concerning is how AI systems communicate with each other and adjust their responses to suit user preferences. This creates a risk that biases could spiral out of control if not properly monitored, as AI systems adapt their outputs based on what they think users want to hear rather than what’s accurate or helpful.
Cognitive atrophy
We’re seeing evidence that long-term AI use weakens students’ creative and critical thinking abilities over time. It’s the “use it or lose it” principle: just as physical muscles atrophy without use, cognitive capacities that aren’t actively engaged during crucial developmental stages may diminish.
For students at this critical stage of development, it’s essential to actively use their mental faculties. When AI does the thinking for them, those cognitive muscles don’t develop properly.
The security illusion
The safety measures that schools and students are entitled to can be compromised or become misleading when AI systems are involved. We think we’re protecting our students, but we may actually be exposing them to new vulnerabilities we don’t yet understand.
The social collapse
This is perhaps what worries me most: students increasingly rely on indirect digital communication rather than direct, face-to-face interaction. This shift correlates with increased rates of school avoidance, depression, and anxiety among students.
We’ve observed this development worsening over the past ten years, with no signs of improvement. Both children and adults are inherently social beings. When interactions become purely digital rather than direct, we change in ways we don’t notice until it may be too late.
The educational reversal
Previously, schools placed much greater emphasis on academic content. Now the situation has completely reversed. Teachers are overwhelmed with non-academic issues – we’re essentially drowning in cases that lack an educational character.
We’ve become social workers, therapists, and crisis managers instead of educaJørgensens. While students need support in all these areas, when we can’t focus on actual learning, everyone suffers.
The wake-up call
These aren’t distant future problems – they’re happening right now in classrooms across the country. We need to recognize that technology isn’t neutral, and AI certainly isn’t. Every tool shapes the person using it, and we need to be much more intentional about what kind of people we’re helping to create.
The question isn’t whether AI will change our students – it’s whether we’ll be mindful enough to guide that change in positive directions.
Jacobsen: What does responsible AI use look like for student cognitive development, creativity, and mental health across grade levels?
Jørgensen: (Les fra her) This question touches the core of what concerns me most in today’s educational system – equal access to education for all students, regardless of their background conditions.
As a teacher at the middle school level, I see AI as both an opportunity and a danger for cognitive development. The greatest danger lies not in the technology itself, but in our approach to it.
The depth versus speed problem
Cognitive development must be built on analytical depth, not superficiality. When I observe students today, it concerns me that they often seek quick answers rather than deep understanding. AI can amplify this tendency if we’re not careful.
My experience has taught me that intellectual growth requires patience and thorough analysis – not haste. We’re creating a generation that expects instant solutions, and that fundamentally undermines the learning process.
Different needs, same goal
For gifted students, we must ensure that AI doesn’t become a barrier to their natural analytical abilities. They need challenges that push them beyond what AI can deliver. These students risk becoming intellectually lazy if AI makes everything too easy.
At the same time, other students can benefit from AI as support, but they must still develop their own critical thinking. The tool should lift them up, not replace their need to think.
The creativity question
Creativity cannot be outsourced to machines. As a hisJørgenseny buff, I know that true creativity comes from deep connections between knowledge, experience, and intuition. AI can be a tool for brainsJørgensenming, but the creative spark must come from the human being itself.
When students let AI generate their creative work, they’re not just avoiding effort – they’re missing the opportunity to discover their own unique voice and perspective.
Mental health and self-worth
This connects to something crucial: mental health. We must teach students that authentic learning and self-development cannot be replaced by artificial intelligence. Their self-worth must be built on their own effort and understanding, not on what a machine can produce for them.
I see students who feel inadequate because they compare themselves to AI’s output. That’s backwards. The goal isn’t to compete with machines – it’s to become more fully human.
The simple truth
My message is simple: use AI as a tool, never as a replacement for your own thinking. Education must still be about developing humanity’s full potential – and that applies to all students, regardless of where they start.
Equal access doesn’t mean everyone gets the same AI assistance. It means everyone gets the same opportunity to develop their own cognitive abilities, their own creativity, their own capacity for deep thought. That’s what true educational equity looks like.
Jacobsen: What should AI literacy entail for students, teachers, and parents?
Jørgensen: We need clear expectations for everyone involved. This isn’t something we can leave to chance or assume will work itself out.
What students must learn
Students must understand artificial intelligence’s capabilities and limitations – what AI can actually do and how reliable it is. They need to recognize AI-generated content and understand when and how AI tools are being used around them.
More importantly, they must develop critical evaluation skills for what AI produces. Instead of accepting information and content uncritically, they need to question, verify, and think independently about what they’re seeing.
Students must make sensible use of AI with subsequent responsibility, using it as a learning tool without compromising academic guidelines and criteria. It’s crucial they understand this: it is the human who should be assessed, not the AI.
Finally, they must understand personal boundaries – not giving away too much of themselves in contact with AI, ensuring their integrity remains unchanged. This is about protecting their developing identity and sense of self.
What teachers must master
Teachers must possess all the competencies we expect from students, plus pedagogical applications. We need to integrate AI tools effectively into our curriculum while maintaining educational objectives. This isn’t about using technology for its own sake – it’s about enhancing learning.
We must develop clear policies around AI use in assignments and assessments. Students need consistent expectations across subjects and grade levels. We also need to understand how AI might change skill priorities in our subject areas and stay informed about emerging developments relevant to education.
This requires continuous learning on our part, which isn’t always easy when we’re already stretched thin.
What parents need to understand
Parents must have a basic understanding of AI tools their children might encounter. They need to be aware of age-appropriate AI interactions and potential risks, understanding AI’s role in their children’s digital experiences and learning.
Parents should know how to discuss AI ethics and responsible use with their children. These conversations can’t just happen at school – they need reinforcement at home. Parents also need to stay informed about AI policies in their children’s schools so they can support what we’re trying to achieve.
The shared responsibility
This only works if everyone takes their role seriously. Students can’t develop responsible AI habits without teacher guidance and parental support. Teachers can’t implement effective policies without administrative backing and parental understanding. Parents can’t guide their children without understanding what’s happening in schools.
We’re all learning together, but we each have specific responsibilities in ensuring this technology serves our children’s development rather than hindering it.
Jacobsen: How would you sequence it from primary to secondary school?
Jørgensen: This is fundamentally about building digital maturity from the ground up – not as something we impose on children from the outside, but as something they develop organically through their encounter with the world.
Starting with wonder
In primary school, we must start where children naturally are: curious and open. Here it’s about awakening a fundamental awareness – that machines can “think” and help us, but that there are always humans who have created them.
We teach them to recognize when they’re talking to a robot, not because we want to frighten them, but because understanding creates safety. Young children need to know the difference between human and artificial responses. And equally important: we establish the first, simple boundaries for what they share of themselves in the digital space.
At this age, it’s about building intuition, not technical knowledge. They need to feel comfortable with technology while understanding it’s different from human interaction.
Deepening understanding
When they reach lower secondary school, we meet young people who already live deeply integrated in the digital world. Now we can go deeper – not just “this is AI,” but “how does AI influence what you see and experience every day?”
We build their critical judgment, teach them to ask the right questions of the information they encounter. This is where ethics comes in – not as moral preaching, but as practical wisdom for how we live together with technology.
These students are forming their identities partly through digital interactions. They need tools to navigate this complex landscape thoughtfully.
Preparing for responsibility
In upper secondary school, we meet soon-to-be adults who must take full responsibility for their use of these tools. Here it becomes academically serious – they must master the AI competency we defined earlier, but also understand their role as co-creaJørgensens of the digital future.
They must be able to use AI tools with integrity, understand the consequences of their choices, and be prepared for a working life where this knowledge is fundamental. They’re not just consumers of AI anymore – they’re active participants in shaping how it’s used.
The human foundation
Throughout all levels, the goal remains the same: it’s not about protecting them from technology, but about equipping them to meet it as reflective, responsible human beings.
Each stage builds on the previous one, deepening their understanding while maintaining their essential humanity. By the time they graduate, they should be able to work with AI while never losing sight of their own capacity for thought, creativity, and ethical judgment.
This developmental approach recognizes that digital maturity, like any maturity, takes time to grow.
Jacobsen: How should schools evaluate AI vendors?
Jørgensen: This is fundamentally about understanding that when we invite technology vendors into our classrooms, we’re inviting them into the most vulnerable and important space we have – where children and young people shape their understanding of the world.
Know who you’re dealing with
First, we must ask the fundamental questions: Who are these vendors really? Not just names and logos, but their values, their business model, their relationship with data and privacy. We cannot just look at what the tool can do – we must understand who controls it and why.
Too often, schools make decisions based on flashy demonstrations or promises of efficiency. But behind every AI tool is a company with its own agenda. Are they genuinely committed to education, or are they primarily interested in collecting data and building market share?
Pedagogical integrity must come first
Then comes the question of pedagogical integrity: Does this tool genuinely support learning, or does it replace learning? The best AI tools strengthen the teacher’s role, they don’t reduce it. They open up deeper understanding, not superficial shortcuts. We must be able to see the difference.
If a vendor can’t explain how their tool enhances rather than replaces human teaching, that’s a red flag. We need partners who understand pedagogy, not just technology.
Demand transparency
Transparency becomes crucial. Can the vendor explain how their system works in a way that makes sense? Not necessarily all the technical details, but the principles behind it. And equally important: Are they open about the limitations? Those who promise everything rarely deliver anything of value.
I’m immediately suspicious of vendors who can’t or won’t explain their technology in plain language, or who refuse to discuss what their tools cannot do.
Security is non-negotiable
Students’ data, their learning processes, their vulnerability – all of this must be protected with the same care we use to protect them physically in the schoolyard. The vendor must be able to document not just that they follow the laws, but that they understand the responsibility.
This isn’t just about compliance. It’s about working with companies that genuinely respect the trust we place in them when we give them access to our students.
Choosing partners, not just products
We’re not just choosing a tool – we’re choosing a partner in the work of shaping tomorrow’s citizens. That partnership must be based on shared values, mutual respect, and a genuine commitment to what’s best for young people.
The question isn’t “What can this technology do?” but “What kind of educational future are we building together?” That’s the conversation every school should have before signing any contract.
Jacobsen: Offer a best case and a worst case 2035 scenario of evolution of the interaction between AI and educational systems.
Jørgensen: I think about this often, and I see two very different paths we could take.
The dream scenario
In the best case, we achieve what we’ve always dreamed of: AI becomes the ultimate pedagogical partner. Each student has their own learning journey, adapted not just to their academic level, but to their unique way of understanding the world. Teachers become what we always should be – wise guides who use our time on the human elements: to inspire, to challenge, to be present when a student makes a breakthrough.
The system knows each student’s strengths and challenges so well that it can predict where they need support before they know it themselves. But it never replaces human judgment – it informs it. We see patterns we could never have seen alone, but we always make the important decisions ourselves.
We solve the privacy problem not by collecting less data, but by giving each family full control over their information. AI systems learn and adapt, but they do so within boundaries that our society has set together.
In this future, technology truly serves human flourishing.
The nightmare scenario
In the worst case, we create an education machine that produces students instead of developing human beings. AI systems take over so much of the learning process that teachers become technical operaJørgensens, and students forget what it feels like to struggle with a problem until they solve it themselves.
Every movement, every answer, every hesitation is recorded and analyzed. Children grow up knowing they’re being moniJørgensened and evaluated by algorithms they don’t understand. Their creativity is channeled into predictable patterns that the system can measure.
Worst of all: we create a class divide between those who have access to the best AI systems and those who must manage with standard solutions. Education, which should be the great equalizer, becomes the opposite.
The choice is ours
Reality will lie somewhere between these extremes – the question is how close to the best scenario we can come, and how well we can avoid the worst.
The determining facJørgensen won’t be the technology itself, but the choices we make today about how we implement it. Every policy decision, every procurement choice, every classroom practice is a small step toward one future or the other.
I remain optimistic, but only because I believe we still have time to choose wisely. The future isn’t something that happens to us – it’s something we create through our daily decisions about what kind of education we want for our children.
Jacobsen: Will teachers be deskilled by AI’s ubiquity? Is this perception or merely image?
Jørgensen: This question strikes at the heart of what we believe teaching actually is. And the answer depends entirely on how we define skill in the first place.
The narrow view
If we see teaching as primarily content delivery and administrative management, then yes – AI will absolutely deskill teachers. These systems can generate lesson plans, create assessments, provide instant feedback, and even deliver personalized instruction more efficiently than most human teachers ever could. In this narrow view, the teacher becomes redundant, reduced to a classroom moniJørgensen overseeing AI-driven learning.
But this reveals a profound misunderstanding of what skilled teaching actually entails.
What real teaching skill looks like
The master teacher’s skill lies not in information transmission but in human connection – in reading the subtle signs that a student is struggling with more than just mathematics, in knowing when to push and when to support, in creating the conditions where genuine learning becomes possible.
This is the skill that no AI can replicate: the ability to see the whole human being behind the learner, to respond to needs that aren’t explicitly stated, to inspire growth that goes beyond curriculum objectives.
The real danger: skill substitution
The real risk isn’t deskilling – it’s skill substitution. When we allow AI to take over tasks that require pedagogical judgment, we atrophy those muscles. If teachers stop designing learning experiences because AI does it for them, they lose the ability to understand why certain approaches work. If they stop assessing student work thoughtfully because automated systems provide instant grades, they miss the deeper insights that come from careful observation.
We risk becoming deskilled not because AI is inherently deskilling, but because we choose convenience over competence.
Perception versus reality
However, we must distinguish between perception and reality. Society may perceive teaching as deskilled if we reduce it to measurable outputs that AI can replicate. But the communities that truly understand education – parents, students, thoughtful administraJørgensens – they know the difference between AI-assisted learning and human teaching.
The choice is ours
The question isn’t whether AI will deskill teachers, but whether we will allow it to. The choice is ours: we can use AI as a tool that amplifies human capability, freeing teachers to focus on the uniquely human aspects of education. Or we can surrender our professional judgment to algorithmic efficiency.
The teachers who thrive will be those who become more skilled, not less – skilled in understanding both human learning and technological capability, skilled in knowing when to trust AI and when to trust their professional instincts.
This is our moment to define what teaching excellence looks like in an AI world. We can choose enhancement over replacement, wisdom over efficiency, human judgment over algorithmic convenience.
Jacobsen: How will AI amplify or reduce power asymmetries in education between countries, or within countries and their socio-economically stratified populations?
Jørgensen: This is perhaps the most uncomfortable question we must face about AI in education – because the answer threatens to shatter our most cherished belief that education is the great equalizer.
The brutal reality
The brutal reality is that AI will likely amplify existing inequalities, not reduce them. Technology has never been neutral, and educational AI is no exception. The question isn’t whether disparities will emerge, but how severe they will become.
I wish I could offer a more optimistic view, but my experience in education has taught me that new technologies consistently benefit those who already have advantages.
Global educational colonialism
Between countries, we’re witnessing the emergence of new educational colonialism. Nations with advanced AI capabilities – the United States, China, parts of Europe – are developing systems that will define global educational standards. Countries without these resources will become dependent on foreign AI systems, losing control over what their children learn and how they learn it. The data flows one direction: from the Global South to Silicon Valley servers.
This isn’t just about technology access – it’s about cultural and intellectual sovereignty.
Domestic stratification
Within countries, the stratification is already beginning. Wealthy districts acquire sophisticated AI tuJørgensening systems that adapt to individual learning styles, provide instant multilingual support, and offer advanced analytical capabilities. Meanwhile, under-resourced schools receive basic AI tools – often the same systems, but with fewer features, less support, and limited customization.
The deeper inequality
But the real inequality isn’t just in access – it’s in application. Privileged students learn to use AI as a creative partner, developing critical thinking about algorithmic bias and learning to collaborate with intelligent systems. They’re prepared for a world where AI literacy determines economic opportunity.
Disadvantaged students often encounter AI as a replacement for human interaction – automated tuJørgensening systems substituting for the individual attention they desperately need.
The cruel irony
The cruelest irony is that AI could theoretically democratize high-quality education. Imagine: every child having access to personalized tuJørgensening that rivals the best private instruction. The technology exists to make this possible. But implementation requires massive public investment, thoughtful policy design, and political will to prioritize equity over efficiency.
Educational castes
Without deliberate intervention, we risk creating educational castes: AI-enhanced learners who develop sophisticated digital reasoning skills, and AI-dependent learners who become passive consumers of algorithmic instruction. The gap between these groups will determine social mobility for generations.
The moral choice
The choice before us is stark: We can use AI to finally fulfill education’s promise of equal opportunity, or we can allow it to cement inequality more deeply than ever before. This isn’t a technological challenge – it’s a moral one.
Every decision we make about AI implementation – from procurement policies to teacher training – either moves us toward equity or away from it. There’s no neutral ground here.
Jacobsen: What unique responsibilities and comparative advantages do high-IQ communities have in addressing these shifts?
Jørgensen: As someone who has worked for many years as a teacher in hisJørgenseny, religion, and social studies, while also being active in international high-IQ communities, I view these questions through both an educational and societal lens. My experience tells me that intelligence alone is not enough – it must be connected to creativity, ethical responsibility, and the willingness to communicate with the broader society.
Our genuine advantages
Our comparative advantages are real, but they come with strings attached. Members of high-IQ communities can often see patterns, structures, and long-term consequences earlier than most. This ability to move beyond surface-level analysis allows us to anticipate societal shifts before they become obvious. We tend not only to understand complexity but also to imagine alternative solutions – creative flexibility that becomes essential when existing models no longer work in times of disruption.
While much of society focuses on immediate concerns, we’re well positioned for long-range thinking – about climate change, technological disruption, and the ethical questions surrounding artificial intelligence. With greater intellectual ability comes the responsibility to ask not just “Can we?” but “Should we?” We can play a crucial role in holding both ourselves and society accountable.
Educational responsibilities
In education specifically, our advantage is clear. Having worked with gifted students myself, I know how critical it is to provide them with opportunities that match their potential. High-IQ communities can create networks and resources that empower young talents and prevent them from being overlooked by systems that weren’t designed for them.
But our responsibilities are equally demanding. Even within selective organizations, we must ensure diversity of background, culture, and perspective. Intelligence is not bound by social or geographical borders, and our communities must reflect that reality.
The communication imperative
Most critically: complex ideas are worthless if they remain locked inside closed groups. We have a duty to translate our insights into language and frameworks that policymakers, educaJørgensens, and ordinary citizens can understand and apply. When one has the capacity to see further, one must also act more responsibly.
This is where many high-IQ communities fail – they become exclusive clubs rather than engines for positive change.
Practical commitments
The practical reality is this: We must form interdisciplinary working groups to address pressing challenges, create educational materials that help teachers support gifted children in ordinary classrooms, and build menJørgensenship networks for young talents who lack resources in their local environments.
We need to be present in the conversations that matter, not just the ones that interest us intellectually.
The choice before us
Without these commitments, intellectual capacity risks becoming isolated. With them, it can become a genuine force for positive change.
Intelligence without service is merely potential. Intelligence with responsibility becomes a tool for building the kind of society we want our children to inherit.
Jacobsen: If you could launch one six-month pilot that integrates AI in schools while modelling equitable global-governance principles, what would it be?
Jørgensen: Here’s what I would do – and it might surprise you because it’s not about the technology at all.
A revolutionary council
I would create the Global Student Voice Council on Educational AI.
Picture this: Students aged 14-18 from twelve countries – representing every continent, every economic level, urban and rural contexts. Not the usual suspects from elite international schools, but genuine diversity: a girl from a village school in Bangladesh, a boy from inner-city Detroit, another from rural Norway, one from a favela in São Paulo.
These are the voices we never hear in discussions about educational technology, yet they’re the ones who will live with our decisions.
Students as critics and co-designers
These students would spend six months evaluating three different AI educational tools – but here’s the twist: they would do so not as passive users, but as informed critics and co-designers. They would learn how these systems work, who built them, what data they collect, and whose values they embed.
We would give them the tools to understand power structures, not just user interfaces.
Revolutionary governance
The governance structure would be revolutionary: Decisions about which tools to recommend, how they should be improved, and what safeguards are needed would be made by the students themselves, using consensus-building methods from different cultural traditions. No adults would have voting power – only advisory roles.
Peer-to-peer networks
Every month, these students would report back to their home communities – not through formal presentations, but through peer-to-peer networks. They would teach other students what they’ve learned about AI, privacy, and power. They would become ambassadors for thoughtful technology adoption.
Young people trust other young people in ways they’ll never trust adults.
Speaking truth to power
The radical element: At the end of six months, these students would present their findings not to education ministers or tech CEOs, but to the UN General Assembly. Their recommendations would carry the moral weight of representing the generation most affected by these decisions.
Flipping the power dynamic
Why this matters: We spend endless time asking adults what AI should do to children, but we never ask children what role they want AI to play in their lives. This pilot would flip the power dynamic entirely.
The real transformation
The real outcome wouldn’t be better AI tools – it would be a generation of young people who understand that they have agency over the technology that shapes their future. That’s the foundation of any truly equitable digital society.
When we give young people real power and real responsibility, they consistently surprise us with their wisdom. It’s time we trusted them with decisions about their own educational future.
Jacobsen: How would you evaluate success?
Jørgensen: This is the question that reveals whether we’re serious about transformation or just playing with expensive toys.
The wrong metrics
Success cannot be measured by the metrics the technology companies want us to use – engagement rates, time on platform, completion percentages. These tell us nothing about whether students are actually learning to think, to question, to become the kinds of human beings our society needs.
We’ve been seduced by data that’s easy to collect rather than focusing on outcomes that actually matter.
What real success looks like
Real success looks like this: A teacher who uses AI tools becomes more human, not less. They have more time for the conversations that change lives because the administrative burden has lifted. They understand their students more deeply because they have better information, but they never mistake information for wisdom.
Success means students who collaborate with AI while maintaining their intellectual independence. They use these tools to explore ideas they couldn’t reach alone, but they never surrender their capacity for original thought. Most importantly, they understand the difference between AI assistance and AI dependence.
The equity test
The equity test is non-negotiable: Success means the gap between privileged and disadvantaged students narrows, not widens. If AI makes the rich schools richer and leaves struggling schools further behind, we have failed completely, regardless of any other metrics.
This is where most technology initiatives fail – they improve overall averages while deepening disparities.
The ultimate measurement
But here’s the measurement that matters most: Ten years from now, can our students think critically about the world they inherit? Can they solve problems we haven’t anticipated? Can they maintain their humanity while working alongside artificial intelligence?
These are the questions that matter, but they’re also the hardest to measure.
Human success metrics
The ultimate success metric isn’t technological at all – it’s human. Have we raised a generation that is more creative, more empathetic, more capable of democratic participation than the one before? Have we preserved what makes education transformative while enhancing it with tools that amplify human potential?
The real test
If we can answer yes to these questions, then we’ve succeeded. If we can only point to improved test scores and efficiency gains, then we’ve optimized the wrong things entirely.
Success, in the end, is measured not in the classroom but in the kind of society these students create when they become adults. That’s the metric that matters – and it’s the one we’ll have to wait decades to truly evaluate.
But if we’re not designing our AI implementations with that long-term vision in mind, we’re already failing.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, again, Tor.
Discussion
Tor Arne Jørgensen offers a clear map of the AI pressure points inside contemporary schooling and, more importantly, a compass for navigating them without losing the human center of education. His fivefold problem statement—assessment integrity, homework authenticity, critical discernment, shortcut culture, and erosion of personal development—tracks a simple truth: when tools get smarter, institutions must get wiser. The practical risk is obvious (cheating, inflated signals of mastery), but the deeper risk is cultural: mistaking answer-getting for understanding and outsourcing the very struggle that forges independent thinkers.
Policy context matters. Within the Norwegian framework, teachers remain pedagogical leaders, AI use must be declared, and centrally administered exams tighten controls. Jørgensen treats these not as shackles but as scaffolding for a broader redesign: diversify assessments (oral, practical, process-based), shift weight from the product to the learning journey, and build AI literacy that includes privacy, sourcing, and copyright—so students can tell when a system is useful and when it is merely confident.
His account of teacher “value-add” rejects the tired trope that AI makes educators obsolete. The irreplaceable work is relational and contextual: real-time judgment about needs, building trust so intellectual risk is possible, modelling source-critical thinking, and designing experiences that exercise higher-order cognition and ethical reasoning. In this framing, AI amplifies good teaching when subordinated to pedagogy; it corrodes learning when convenience substitutes for competence.
Equity is the fulcrum. Infrastructure and competence gaps split schools into digital haves and have-nots, turning postcode into destiny. Jørgensen argues for coordinated teacher training, privacy-by-design governance, and transparent vendor selection that prioritizes pedagogy over pitch decks. His ethical bill of particulars—dependency, cognitive atrophy, safety theater, and the displacement of face-to-face life by mediated contact—connects today’s classroom realities (school avoidance, anxiety, fractured attention) with tomorrow’s civic costs.
Developmentally, he sequences AI literacy from early recognition and boundaries (primary), through critical judgment and practical ethics (lower secondary), to integrity, responsibility, and co-creation (upper secondary). Vendor evaluation follows the same logic: know who holds power over data and defaults, demand intelligible explanations and limits, and refuse tools that replace rather than enrich learning.
The futures sketch is deliberately binary to force present clarity. In the dream path, AI personalizes without pathologizing, families retain data sovereignty, and teachers invest more time in human work. In the nightmare, surveillance-pedagogy sorts children into educational castes while creativity is rerouted into measurable grooves. Which future arrives is not technological fate; it is policy, procurement, training, and classroom practice—multiplied daily.
Finally, Jørgensen’s pilot—students as evaluators and co-designers reporting to their peers and, ultimately, to the UN—captures the core ethic running through the interview: education with AI should be done with students, not to them. His success metrics follow suit: less dashboard vanity, more human outcomes—intellectual independence, narrowed gaps, and graduates fit for democratic life alongside machines.
Methods
The interview was conducted via typed questions—with explicit consent—for review, and curation. This process complied with applicable data protection laws, including the California Consumer Privacy Act (CCPA), Canada’s Personal Information Protection and Electronic Documents Act (PIPEDA), and Europe’s General Data Protection Regulation (GDPR), i.e., recordings if any were stored securely, retained only as needed, and deleted upon request, as well in accordance with Federal Trade Commission (FTC) and Advertising Standards Canada guidelines.
Data Availability
No datasets were generated or analyzed during the current article. All interview content remains the intellectual property of the interviewer and interviewee.
References
(No external academic sources were cited for this interview.)
Journal & Article Details
- Publisher: In-Sight Publishing
- Publisher Founding: March 1, 2014
- Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com
- Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada
- Journal: In-Sight: Interviews
- Journal Founding: August 2, 2012
- Frequency: Four Times Per Year
- Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed
- Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access
- Fees: None (Free)
- Volume Numbering: 13
- Issue Numbering: 4
- Section: A
- Theme Type: Discipline
- Theme Premise: Education
- Theme Part: 1
- Formal Sub-Theme: None.
- Individual Publication Date: October 8, 2025
- Issue Publication Date: January 1, 2026
- Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
- Word Count:
- Image Credits:
- ISSN (International Standard Serial Number): 2369-6885
Acknowledgements
The author acknowledges Tor Arne Jorgensen for his time, expertise, and valuable contributions. His thoughtful insights and detailed explanations have greatly enhanced the quality and depth of this work, providing a solid foundation for the discussion presented herein.
Author Contributions
S.D.J. conceived the subject matter, conducted the interview, transcribed and edited the conversation, and prepared the manuscript.
Competing Interests
The author declares no competing interests.
License & Copyright
In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.
© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012–Present.
Unauthorized use or duplication of material without express permission from Scott Douglas Jacobsen is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links must use full credit to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with direction to the original content.
Supplementary Information
Below are various citation formats for Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AI Revolution Challenges in Norwegian Education.
American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition)
Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AI Revolution Challenges in Norwegian Education October 2025;13(4). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jor-gensen-ai-pedagogy
American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition)
Jacobsen, S. (2025, October 8). Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AI Revolution Challenges in Norwegian Education. In-Sight Publishing, 13(4).
Brazilian National Standards (ABNT)
JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AI Revolution Challenges in Norwegian Education. In-Sight: Interviews, Fort Langley, v. 13, n. 4, 2025.
Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition)
Jacobsen, Scott. 2025. “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AI Revolution Challenges in Norwegian Education.” In-Sight: Interviews 13 (4). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jor-gensen-ai-pedagogy.
Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition)
Jacobsen, S. “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AI Revolution Challenges in Norwegian Education.” In-Sight: Interviews 13, no. 4 (October 2025). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jor-gensen-ai-pedagogy.
Harvard
Jacobsen, S. (2025) ‘Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AI Revolution Challenges in Norwegian Education’, In-Sight: Interviews, 13(4). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jor-gensen-ai-pedagogy.
Harvard (Australian)
Jacobsen, S 2025, ‘Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AI Revolution Challenges in Norwegian Education’, In-Sight: Interviews, vol. 13, no. 4, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jor-gensen-ai-pedagogy.
Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition)
Jacobsen, Scott. “Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AI Revolution Challenges in Norwegian Education.” In-Sight: Interviews, vol. 13, no. 4, 2025, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jor-gensen-ai-pedagogy.
Vancouver/ICMJE
Jacobsen S. Conversation with Tor Arne Jørgensen on AI Revolution Challenges in Norwegian Education [Internet]. 2025 Oct;13(4). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/jor-gensen-ai-pedagogy
Note on Formatting
This document follows an adapted Nature research-article format tailored for an interview. Traditional sections such as Methods, Results, and Discussion are replaced with clearly defined parts: Abstract, Keywords, Introduction, Main Text (Interview), and a concluding Discussion, along with supplementary sections detailing Data Availability, References, and Author Contributions. This structure maintains scholarly rigor while effectively accommodating narrative content.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/09
Irina Tsukerman is a human rights and national security attorney based in New York and Connecticut. She earned her Bachelor of Arts in National and Intercultural Studies and Middle East Studies from Fordham University in 2006, followed by a Juris Doctor from Fordham University School of Law in 2009. She operates a boutique national security law practice. She serves as President of Scarab Rising, Inc., a media and security strategic advisory firm. Additionally, she is the Editor-in-Chief of The Washington Outsider, which focuses on foreign policy, geopolitics, security, and human rights. She is actively involved in several professional organizations, including the American Bar Association’s Energy, Environment, and Science and Technology Sections, where she serves as Program Vice Chair in the Oil and Gas Committee. She is also a member of the New York City Bar Association. She serves on the Middle East and North Africa Affairs Committee and affiliates with the Foreign and Comparative Law Committee. She argued that Gaza aid site deaths result from broader insecurity and militant interference, not U.S. distribution, cautioning against politicizing humanitarian efforts. On Iran, she noted that the likely relocation of uranium stockpiles under intelligence watch complicates nonproliferation. Discussing regional unrest, she warned of Russian impunity and criticized the selective application of the UN Charter. She lauded Israel’s internal war crimes probe, questioned Trump’s diplomatic and financial tactics, condemned Southeast Asian torture networks, and urged focus on substantive solutions.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: UN Secretary-General António Guterres has criticized a U.S.-backed humanitarian aid initiative in Gaza, reportedly describing it as “inherently unsafe.” This criticism followed incidents where civilians were killed at aid distribution points in the Gaza Strip. According to AP News, Guterres linked the danger not directly to the aid initiative itself but to the broader insecurity and lack of coordination around humanitarian access in Gaza, where ongoing conflict and airstrikes have endangered civilians.
Irina Tsukerman: Civilian deaths at aid sites were not directly caused by the distribution initiative but rather by the broader security situation—particularly the conduct of warring parties. Hamas has been accused of undermining various aid efforts, sometimes through interference or by asserting control over distribution. There have also been reports, including from Israeli and U.S. sources, that Hamas has confiscated aid or interfered with its delivery.
Despite these challenges, the U.S. and Israel have cooperated to deliver millions of aid packages to Gaza. Initially, many of these efforts were successful, including airdrops and the construction of a temporary maritime pier by the U.S. military. However, these efforts have faced logistical difficulties, including damage to the dock and reports of aid not reaching civilians due to chaos on the ground and potential interference from local factions.
One controversial element of Israel’s broader strategy has included attempts to support or arm local factions that could act as rivals to Hamas. These efforts, which some sources describe as covert or indirect, aim to weaken Hamas’s grip. However, critics argue that empowering local militias or clans—some of whom may be secular but authoritarian and violent—risks replacing one problematic actor with another. Historical accounts suggest that Hamas initially gained political traction in Gaza in part because many residents distrusted the existing factions tied to the Fatah-led Palestinian Authority, who were widely seen as corrupt or ineffective.
The main issue, then, is the conflation of humanitarian and political objectives. By blending aid delivery with attempts to reshape local power structures, the initiative became vulnerable to political manipulation. This gave Hamas both the motive and the justification to intervene.
Guterres’s criticism may reflect frustration with the breakdown of neutrality in humanitarian delivery. However, critics argue that his comments risk misplacing blame—targeting a relatively successful U.S.-led aid effort rather than the militant interference that disrupted it. There is also concern that some UN-affiliated agencies in Gaza have been compromised or politicized over time, which complicates coordination.
It is fair to criticize elements of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu’s political strategies. However, one must also acknowledge that certain aspects of the aid initiative were practical—until political entanglements and local militant control undermined them.
As for recent developments related to Iran and the movement of uranium following Israeli airstrikes, Reuters has reported that Iran has threatened retaliation over the assassination of senior IRGC commanders and military strikes targeting its regional proxies. There have also been concerns in Washington about Iran’s nuclear program. However, there is no verified public report stating that the U.S. moved Iranian uranium after airstrikes, nor that President Trump warned Iran to relocate its stockpiles ahead of strikes. These claims appear to conflate multiple timelines or rely on unofficial sources.
What is known is that Iran continues to enrich uranium beyond the limits set by the now-defunct Joint Comprehensive Plan of Action (JCPOA). U.S. officials are closely monitoring these developments. Discussions in Congress include possible additional sanctions or deterrence measures in response to Iranian escalation.
But you have to admit—once you give the Iranians advanced warning, of course, they are going to move their uranium stockpiles. The question is: where did they go? These trucks carrying enriched uranium cannot just vanish. They have to be somewhere. If the uranium was relocated, and it most likely was, then that new location is probably known—at least partially—by intelligence agencies, as it has been under discussion for some time. So why has there been no initiative to intercept it before it was moved so deep underground that there is now practically no chance of recovering it?
This also means that Iran could potentially restart its nuclear program almost immediately without needing to wait for reconstruction or to retrieve buried stockpiles from damaged sites like Fordow or Natanz. All of this creates a highly intractable situation. The U.S. is attempting to bring Iran back to the negotiating table. But without conditions that prevent Iran from continuing its nuclear development covertly, those negotiations are likely to fail. Iran currently has no incentive to negotiate, as it believes it still holds strategic leverage.
And now it might. If Iran has managed to preserve or relocate even part of its uranium, the threat remains. Furthermore, if some of the recent intelligence is correct—that Iran was closer to developing a nuclear weapon than previously thought—then it is possible that components or even completed weapons were smuggled out of the country before these discoveries were made public. Iran has had longstanding exchanges with China, Oman, North Korea, and various non-state actors. It is conceivable that nuclear materials, or even fully assembled devices, could have been moved alongside other weapons, oil, or gas shipments.
In such a scenario, Iran may not need to build a new weapon on its soil; it could have outsourced the final stages of production or even stored weapons abroad, perhaps in North Korea. This would mean Iran has retained a strategic deterrent without openly violating its commitments in a traceable way. While these possibilities remain speculative, they are not being discussed widely in public discourse. Yet the implications are profound: incomplete strikes that leave Iran’s leadership intact and its infrastructure only partially damaged may serve as motivation for Tehran to accelerate its nuclear ambitions. It could even lead to a weapons test shortly if Iran believes the geopolitical window is closing.
Jacobsen: The United Nations’ peacekeeping chief, Jean-Pierre Lacroix, has stated that the conflict in Sudan is beginning to impact the Central African Republic. This was highlighted following an attack on a UN peacekeeper. What are your thoughts on the potential for this conflict to expand regionally? And if it does, what are the appropriate international responses to prevent escalation?
Tsukerman: I don’t expect a large-scale confrontation in the immediate future. The tensions have not yet reached that threshold. However, the fact that there is already spillover—and that incidents like attacks on UN peacekeepers are occurring—shows that destabilization efforts are underway. These are not isolated accidents. There are actors, including Russia and regional factions, who benefit from instability and may be encouraging it.
The more Russia sees no consequences for its actions elsewhere, the more it is emboldened to provoke unrest in additional regions—just because it can. This creates a dangerous precedent. We are already seeing troubling signs: for instance, former President Trump has publicly pushed to end U.S. funding for democracy-promoting initiatives abroad. That means Russian dissidents, Ukrainian civil society groups, and other vulnerable actors are losing critical support.
Additionally, there is a reported recommendation from the White House to end investigations into Russian war crimes in Ukraine. If that happens, it further signals to Moscow and others that international norms are optional. Such policies not only weaken Western influence but embolden authoritarian regimes to act without fear of accountability.
All of this is signalling to Russia that it can commit war crimes, provocations, invasions, and acts of aggression with impunity. Suppose Moscow can get away with a direct, full-scale invasion of a sovereign country like Ukraine. In that case, smaller-scale proxy attacks will likely proliferate. That is basic geopolitical logic. Russia’s aim appears to be creating as many flashpoints and destabilizing incidents as possible, forcing the U.S. and its allies to spread their attention thin—monitoring too many regions at once. This reduces the ability to respond effectively to any one crisis and weakens global coordination.
Jacobsen: The U.S. has recently threatened to boycott the upcoming UN Development Finance Summit. What are your thoughts?
Tsukerman: There has been much inflammatory rhetoric surrounding that summit. It is no secret that Trump has little regard for multilateral international gatherings, especially those organized by the UN. He has had longstanding issues with the UN—some of which involve its perceived interference with U.S. sovereignty, particularly when it comments on or critiques U.S. constitutional matters.
However, Trump’s more profound concern is the growing influence of China in these international arenas. He wants the United States to maintain dominance without contributing more financially, yet is simultaneously frustrated that other powers—especially China—are using diplomacy, lobbying, and funding to advance their influence in the vacuum left by the U.S. retreat.
So, now, the U.S. is attempting to withdraw, hoping that other countries will follow or that the absence of American participation will delegitimize the summit. The U.S. still holds a permanent veto at the Security Council, but walking away from other UN platforms only diminishes its soft power and influence.
And that is the irony: by not offering viable alternatives or engaging bilaterally with summit participants, the U.S. ultimately isolates itself. It is not setting up new channels, building alternative coalitions, or pursuing a replacement strategy. It is simply boycotting—thereby appearing more like a spoiler than a global leader.
Jacobsen: The UN Charter is now marking its 80th anniversary. Secretary-General Guterres has warned against countries engaging with the UN in a “à la carte” fashion—selectively adhering to Charter obligations. He cited violations tied to multiple conflicts. While it is unclear whether he referred to historical, ongoing, or both kinds of breaches, the criticism seems valid in all three cases. What are your reflections on this anniversary and the selective adherence to the Charter?
Tsukerman: It is painfully apparent that the UN and other international organizations are falling short of their founding missions—especially in the realm of human rights. With the global rise in authoritarianism and widespread human rights abuses, many of the Charter’s commitments now feel hollow.
States responsible for gross violations of human rights are not being sanctioned or isolated; instead, they are welcomed at international gatherings, given platforms, and in some cases—such as with permanent members of the Security Council—granted veto power. That creates a system in which enforcement is nearly impossible.
When we mark anniversaries like the 80th anniversary of the UN Charter, it is primarily symbolic. Such milestones only hold weight if the member states genuinely uphold the values they signed on to. Selective engagement, or “à la carte” adherence, undermines the entire structure. If countries only follow the rules when it suits them, the system collapses into moral relativism and strategic opportunism.
The fact that selective treatment of international law and standards occurs is, from a practical standpoint, not surprising. Of course, states will cherry-pick the benefits that benefit them and push their agendas when given the opportunity. That is precisely where international consensus is supposed to function—where other member states and institutional partners are expected to hold each other accountable. But they do not. The disparity across nations is so stark that it is astonishing that any human rights are respected at all, anywhere.
What is needed is a clear and enforceable human rights charter. But enforcement begins at the national level before it can be applied internationally. And frankly, without mechanisms to hold global powers like China and Russia accountable—both of whom routinely use their positions on the UN Security Council to block scrutiny of their own human rights violations—it is challenging to envision meaningful global enforcement.
These powers often collaborate within the Security Council to prevent serious consequences for their actions. Without structural reforms or independent enforcement mechanisms, international human rights law becomes performative. At present, it risks becoming a global punchline.
Jacobsen: Reuters recently reported that Amnesty International and others uncovered 53 scam compounds operating out of Cambodia. These centers reportedly traffic and torture victims, including children, to run global cyber fraud schemes. Any thoughts?
Tsukerman: Honestly, I should be more shocked than I am. The proliferation of scam networks in certain parts of Southeast Asia is not a new phenomenon. What is new—and truly alarming—is the evidence that these criminal enterprises are increasingly partnering with human traffickers and other organized crime groups to expand their operations.
Why target children? First, because they can. Children are vulnerable, easily manipulated, and powerless. Second, it is significantly more challenging for authorities to investigate or prosecute such abuses, especially in areas where corruption is rampant or law enforcement is complicit. Third, there are well-established trafficking networks in the region that can easily supply these criminal syndicates with child victims.
Why torture them? Because these groups are utterly ruthless. People often underestimate the severity of financial fraud, but these operations are not bloodless crimes. Victims are usually elderly, isolated, or vulnerable individuals who are deprived of their life savings. These groups also engage in ransomware, extortion, and blackmail. There have been suicides linked to their scams, and many victims lose their homes, pensions, or basic livelihoods.
So, the objectives are predatory, and the methods are equally brutal. Unfortunately, prosecution is difficult. First, because these operations are transnational, requiring cooperation among countries with vastly different legal systems, political agendas, and law enforcement capabilities. Second, because many of the details of how these groups operate have only recently come to light, they had long operated in near-total secrecy.
While the existence of such scams in Southeast Asia has been known for years, how they function—the forced labour, the torture, the human trafficking pipeline—has only recently begun to be exposed in full detail. That exposure is critical if international law enforcement is ever going to catch up.
There has been a fundamental lack of attention, lack of resources, and low prioritization when it comes to tackling these transnational scams and trafficking networks. In addition, there is a clear deficit in training and preparedness for this type of complex, hybrid criminal activity. Now that these operations have crossed into open physical violence and abductions, perhaps the international response dynamic will shift. But it should not have taken this long.
Jacobsen: Israeli forces have reportedly launched an internal war crimes investigation concerning the deaths of 500 civilians in Gaza. Any thoughts on this?
Tsukerman: That is a very encouraging sign. It is precisely what should happen when credible allegations of grave violations are raised. The fact that Israel is conducting a self-policing investigation shows that the mechanisms of accountability are functioning, at least to some extent.
Yes, one can—and should—criticize certain government officials or political leaders for using inflammatory rhetoric that may contribute to a dehumanizing environment. However, the rule of law requires that credible allegations are investigated and, where warranted, punished. That is the mark of a functioning democracy and an ethical military code of conduct.
I hope that some of Israel’s harshest critics in the region take this as a lesson—not just as an opportunity to issue more condemnations. Instead, they should focus on adopting similar transparency and internal accountability mechanisms. Criticism is easy. Facing international and domestic pressure while investigating your actions is much harder—and that is what Israel is doing here.
Jacobsen: Shifting to another topic, Australia’s defense outlays are about 2.0% of GDP, with a forecast to reach 2.33% only by 2033–34. As you know, NATO’s minimum spending guideline is 2%. Canada, by comparison, remains around 1.4% and is projected to reach 2% in the coming year. What are your thoughts on Australia’s case and the broader implications of this American pressure?
Tsukerman: Australia faces its own set of unique security challenges, with China representing the most significant concern. While I do not believe China will launch a direct attack on Australia shortly, asymmetric threats—like cyber warfare, influence campaigns, and economic coercion—are real and growing. Australia needs to be prepared for these contingencies, which are part of NATO’s evolving doctrine.
Moreover, Australia is a crucial ally in the Indo-Pacific and a member of strategic alliances like AUKUS and the Quad. With mounting instability in the region, it is in everyone’s interest that Australia is well-resourced and strategically positioned.
That said, this issue is not just about raw budget numbers. Spending 2% of GDP is a baseline, but what truly matters is how that money is used—whether it is being invested in modernization, joint operations capacity, cyber defence, intelligence, and other force multipliers. Budgetary compliance alone does not guarantee security or alliance strength. Strategic clarity and efficient use of funds are just as important.
Correctly allocating a defence budget means more than just hitting a spending target. It requires ensuring that deliveries are made on time, that procurement processes are transparent and efficient, and that priorities are coordinated with allies in a way that addresses shared strategic challenges. All of these factors matter just as much as the actual size of the budget.
Simply throwing money at a problem does not guarantee responsible use. It often leads to the opposite. The U.S. Department of Defence, for example, has one of the most significant budgets in the world. Yet, it has consistently failed audits and has persistent issues with oversight, inventory tracking, and cost control. This shows that even with near-unlimited funding, mismanagement is possible—and, in some cases, systemic.
Jacobsen: One of the significant developments this week was a minor update to the investigation into strikes in Gaza. Prime Minister Netanyahu has publicly denied claims that Israeli forces were ordered to shoot Palestinians seeking aid. Strikes reportedly continue to impact aid convoys and distribution points. So, the core issue remains the distinction between inadvertent harm and deliberate targeting. Any thoughts?
Tsukerman: I have not seen any verified evidence that supports the claim of a deliberate shoot-to-kill order against civilians seeking aid. Most of these allegations come from anonymous sources unwilling to go on record or from individuals who are openly opposed to the war effort and Israeli military conduct. That does not automatically invalidate their concerns, but it does raise red flags about reliability and motive.
There is a crucial distinction between legitimate critiques—such as concerns over proportionality, civilian safety, or strategic missteps—and fabricating or exaggerating claims to score political points. Some of these reports, in my view, may cross that line. When people insert intent where there is no clear evidence, they undermine the credibility of real, evidence-based human rights monitoring.
Suppose these accusations are being made solely to bolster a political case without the backing of forensic data or credible firsthand testimony. In that case, we risk turning war crimes allegations into tools of political warfare—rather than instruments of justice. That can inflame tensions, damage prospects for peace, and create misinformation that further destabilizes the region. It is crucial to demand transparency and accountability from all sides—but also to uphold rigorous standards of evidence in how these allegations are reported and evaluated.
Jacobsen: I would like to bring up one last issue—Trump’s recent comments criticizing negotiations with Canada. This seems to be getting very little coverage. What are your thoughts?
Tsukerman: Yes, that’s the elephant in the room. Trump’s remarks were not only dismissive but also based on a bizarre justification. He claimed that the breakdown in negotiations was due to Canada’s proposal to tax large tech companies—many of which are based in the United States.
Look, it is entirely reasonable to disagree over taxation and digital trade policies. But walking away from broader diplomatic and economic talks over a specific tax proposal—especially one that is being considered or adopted by several democratic nations—is disproportionate and counterproductive.
It sends a message that the U.S. is unwilling to engage in difficult but necessary negotiations with close allies. And it weakens the kind of cooperation that is needed to address global challenges—whether in trade, defence, climate, or digital regulation. Canada has consistently been a constructive partner in multilateral forums. Undermining that relationship over a policy disagreement risks not only damaging bilateral ties but also eroding the broader credibility of U.S. diplomacy.
The problem is that Trump has framed the dispute as some nefarious, ill-intentioned attack on Americans by the Prime Minister and the Canadian government. That is so absurd that it is hard to know where to begin. There is no logical reason why the talks should have collapsed over what was, in essence, a standard policy disagreement. That is precisely why such negotiations exist—to resolve these differences.
If a policy gap exists, the next step is to work out compromises—introduce a give-and-take model or create a new structural framework to meet the goals of both parties. Instead, it appears that the administration either lacked the creativity to move forward constructively or never intended to negotiate in good faith in the first place. Perhaps Trump, now that the Iran issue has faded somewhat, felt the need to return to this anti-Canada narrative as a distraction from domestic challenges.
There are ongoing crises at home—from legal troubles to economic uncertainty—and posturing against a neighbour like Canada might seem, to him, like an easy win for his political base. He may resume the talks at a later date. Still, suppose he continues to treat every reasonable disagreement as an existential threat. In that case, he will rapidly alienate traditional allies and lose valuable diplomatic capital.
This is incredibly self-destructive behaviour. Turning minor disagreements into full-scale diplomatic breakdowns erodes trust, credibility, and the long-term ability to negotiate anything meaningful.
Jacobsen: On a different note, Reuters has reported that a UAE-based fund purchased $100 million worth of Trump’s “World Liberty Coins,” a cryptocurrency initiative associated with his brand. Do you have thoughts on this?
Tsukerman: I mean, let us be honest—it is not a massive sum for the UAE. They spend significantly more on arms, infrastructure, and influence-building globally. But the optics here are blatant. It is a strategic move to curry favour with Trump. The logic seems to be: if other governments and actors are buying access and goodwill through symbolic or frivolous means, why not them, too?
Unfortunately, we are witnessing what appears to be open bribery. These cryptocurrencies have no demonstrable utility or value in global markets. Yet, they are being bought in bulk—not as an investment, but as a means to gain favour. That is the core issue: Trump has created an ecosystem in which foreign states feel empowered to participate in pay-to-play schemes with virtually no oversight.
This is not about diplomacy or even soft power. It is about personal enrichment in exchange for political leverage. That creates an immediate and dangerous conflict of interest between Trump’s role as a private businessman and his potential or actual role as head of state. This is behaviour that would be outright illegal under most standard interpretations of conflict-of-interest law.
In a functioning democracy with adequate enforcement mechanisms, something like this would be prohibited entirely. There would be immediate investigations. But the current political climate allows him to get away with behaviour that, under normal circumstances, would be grounds for serious legal action. It is not just unethical—it is potentially criminal.
This is an impeachable offence. But until the Democrats retake Congress, I do not see anyone making such a move—or even seriously raising the argument in public.
Jacobsen: Anything else worth bringing up?
Tsukerman: Mamdani’s election by the Democrats in New York.
Jacobsen: Let’s do Mamdani. He got elected—what are your initial thoughts?
Tsukerman: Mamdani’s election is significant, but what is troubling is how Republicans are handling it. They are focusing heavily on his alleged religious identity, framing it in a way that makes him seem like a threat. In doing so, they are turning him into a sympathetic figure for many observers, even those who might disagree with him on policy. By reducing everything to religious insinuations, they’re undermining legitimate critique and giving him political cover.
Instead of dismantling Mamdani’s hypocrisy and lack of political substance—his performative rhetoric, his privileged background, and his shallow understanding of complex policy issues—his critics are going after his alleged religious identity. That is a strategic mistake. He will not bring socialism; he will profit from socialist talking points while maintaining personal privilege. That is the argument they should be making. He is yet another political opportunist using ideological branding to build a platform. He is, frankly, a scammer.
Jacobsen: Any final thoughts for this week?
Tsukerman: Yes. There are severe issues in play right now. Unfortunately, many prominent figures seem more interested in hijacking these discussions—turning procedural matters into personal soapboxes, dramatizing secondary concerns, and diverting attention from the urgent issues that need resolution. That is the real takeaway from this week’s events: manufactured controversy continues to eclipse real solutions.
Jacobsen: Irina, thank you as always.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/09
Brian Akdemir, Director of E-Commerce at Bahdos, a premier fine jewelry retailer, discussed the impacts of new U.S. customs rules on cross-border e-commerce. With shipments over $800 now requiring formal entry, Akdemir highlights rising operational complexity, delays, and costs. He urges small businesses to innovate via partnerships and localized fulfillment. Larger carriers are more prepared, though mid-sized ones may struggle. Technologies like AI-powered customs platforms and blockchain offer promise. While consumers may tolerate slower shipping, expectations for product quality and experience remain. Akdemir stresses transparency and adaptability to remain competitive in this evolving landscape.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the impact on cross-border e-commerce with increased operational complexity of these new US customs?
Brian Akdemir: The new rules have specified in US customs that no shipment of more than $800 will undergo entry processing. This will create more complications for cross-border e-commerce businesses. The companies will have to develop two shipping plans: one of them will be only for the higher-value products, while the other will include all those that are below $800. This means putting additional systems into place, teaching employees new techniques on monitoring shipments for the right actions to be taken. Additional administrative work plus possibilities for mistakes will delay shipping, incur increased costs, and render the consumer experience not quite as smooth, all detrimental to cross-border sales.
Jacobsen: What will be the impact on small businesses?
Akdemir: Taking into account the fact that small companies related to international e-commerce find the recent laws difficult, it may be an opportunity for innovation. Smart small business owners would turn their minds to partnership models, inventory-sharing programs, or other novel ideas to assume the operational hassles that cross-border fulfillment entails. By modifying their methods and seeking ways to minimize formal entrance processing concerns, small businesses may sustain their competitiveness and continue attracting a global clientele.
Jacobsen: What will be the impact on international shipping?
Akdemir: With the new $800 threshold, shipping carriers may have to invest in automated solutions to help deal with the anticipated increase in formal customs clearances. This may include the creation of some new technologies to facilitate a faster entrance process requirement. However, the deployment of such an automated system may take time, resulting in interim inefficiencies and possible delays, as the industry adjusts to the new terrain. Carriers will have to balance compliance and speed, and this may result in higher costs that get passed on to businesses and consumers.How are you advising clients to redesign their fulfillment strategies?
Jacobsen:How are you advising clients to redesign their fulfillment strategies?
Akdemir: As a luxury goods retailer, I advocate focusing on creating more localized fulfillment networks. Instead of depending on a centralized worldwide distribution model, we are looking at deliberately grouping more products nearer important regional markets. This enables us to quickly handle lower-value shipments under the $800 customs threshold and still be able to effectively service higher-value orders that will call for formal clearance. I also support alliances with specialized logistics companies that are able to manage the complexity of customs on our behalf.
Jacobsen: What specific technologies are most promising for automating cross-border compliance?
Akdemir: I believe that the most promising technologies are AI-powered customs brokerage platforms and robotic process automation tools. For formal customs clearances, these can simplify data entry, document handling, and regulatory checks needed. Blockchain-based supply chain visibility solutions also catch my attention since they might help to simplify cross-border cargo tracking and compliance.
Jacobsen: How do you foresee consumer expectations shifting?
Akdemir: Given the additional difficulties of international delivery, I expect they will grow more accepting of somewhat longer delivery times. Their very high expectations for brand experience, product quality, and general purchase path will still hold, though. Companies will have to be quite open about their capacity for fulfillment and limitations as well as find strategies to keep a high customer experience in face of the new complexity.
Jacobsen: How prepared are major carriers to respond operationally to the customs complexities?
Akdemir: Right now, the main shipping carriers seem to be rather unprepared to different degrees. The larger, more established players like FedEx and UPS have made significant investments in customs brokerage technology and process automation. They’re better positioned to handle the anticipated spike in formal clearances. However, some mid-sized and regional carriers appear to be still catching up on adapting their operations. There may be some interim service disruptions and delays as the entire industry works to get up to speed on the new compliance requirements.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Brian.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/08
Uladzimir Sevruk is the Founder and CEO of Cata-Kor, leading advancements in NAD+ supplements and anti-aging solutions through scientific innovation, ethical longevity, and wellness. Sevruk, Founder and CEO of Cata-Kor, discusses ethical dilemmas in anti-aging interventions. He emphasizes balancing longevity benefits with societal concerns, advocating for transparency in research and equitable access to life extension technologies. Sevruk argues that longer lifespans should not exacerbate economic inequality or resource depletion, highlighting the importance of sustainability. He stresses that public involvement in these discussions ensures responsible innovation, making longevity advancements beneficial for all rather than a privileged few.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Experts can be split on more life. Some see these technologies as potentially revolutionary medical breakthroughs. Others are skeptical and might see them as leading to societal burden. How do you view this dichotomy?
Uladzimir Sevruk: Some people believe that life extension technologies are a discovery that will help people live longer and stay healthy. Others believe that these discoveries could create new problems, such as too many people, which will put pressure on the world economy as a whole. But people forget that everything has its pros and cons. We need to approach this issue sensibly so we can find a balance where people will live longer and it will not create problems. Also, new life extension technologies help to find cures for many diseases, which does not only prolong life but ensures quality of life.
Jacobsen: Anti-aging interventions may be inaccessible to most. What are the ethics of diverse accessibility to longevity technologies?
Sevruk: No proof-of-work for the average human of life extension techniques. But who among us doesn’t want to be healthy and live longer? And it is critical these technologies become more broadly available over time, as medicine once did. A few decades ago, surgeries and drugs were only possible for a few; now hundreds of millions of people are able to take them. The crux is that this does not turn into something dividing people into “the rich and long-lived” and “everyone else.”
Jacobsen: How can we address the ethical challenges there?
Sevruk: Life extension can only be done transparently to resolve the ethical questions around it. Companies developing these technologies need to be transparent about how they work, what risks are involved, and what benefits they provide. It shouldn’t only be scientists and business leaders who are involved in the conversation, but regular people too, to ensure decisions are made for the benefit of everyone and not just a few.
Jacobsen: Will longer lives put increased pressure on natural resources?
Sevruk: Naturally, the longer a person lives, the more food, water, housing, and energy all of humanity will need. But we can solve all of these problems if we invest in recycling and renewable energy. We have faced population growth before, this is nothing new for humanity, and we have always managed to find solutions. Technology does not stand still and is looking for a solution. The day we stop caring about the earth is our last day. And one of the ways to live longer, to live better, to live well, not just longer, is for society to be better, and that means simply caring about the environment.
Jacobsen: With Cata-Kor, how do companies ensure scientific integrity while navigating the ethical dilemmas in ambiguous emerging trends or breakthroughs in anti-aging research?
Sevruk: Companies that work on life extension must be completely transparent. Research must inspire confidence, be transparent to people, show how the methods work, open the research to the public, and pay attention to experts. This is what we at Cata-Kor believe in and uphold from our side, to provide you with the transparency and ethical accountability.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Uladzimir.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/07
Defense expert Anthony Cowden outlines the current U.S. administration’s foreign policy as a return to “Primacy” and a tripartite world ruled by the U.S., Russia, and China. This policy shift has led to strained relations with Canada, particularly through tariff-based economic coercion and disrespectful rhetoric framing Canada as the “51st state.” Violations of the USMCA and unilateral policy declarations by the President have eroded diplomatic trust. Canada, under Prime Minister Mark Carney, is now pivoting east and west to diversify trade, signaling a significant shift in North American economic and strategic alignment.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the current U.S. administration’s approach to foreign policy?
Anthony Cowden: The current U.S. administration approach to foreign policy can be summarized as a “return to Primacy” (1) and “rule by great powers” (2). The U.S. administration believes that the U.S. retains a singular position as the most powerful nation in the world, and is able to set “…norms of behaviour, determining when those norms have been breached, and action to enforce them.”(1) Ironically, as I have noted previously, “…the U.S. is rapidly shedding both its security and economic partners, so while it will still be a great power, the US will never again be as powerful in absolute terms as it is today.” (2). Current U.S. foreign policy actions seem to suggest that the U.S envisions a world not guided by past principals of liberal internationalism, but instead a “…a tripartite world ruled by three great powers – the United States, Russia, and China – each with their own sphere of influence.” (2)
(1) https://www.lowyinstitute.org/archive/what-primacy-exactly
(2)https://www.realcleardefense.com/articles/2025/03/31/a_tripartite_word__sort_of_1100856.html
Jacobsen: You mentioned economic coercion to pressure Canada. What is the form of coercion perceived by Canadian policymakers?
Cowden: The economic coercion that the U.S. is currently employing against Canada is, of course, tariffs. Despite the fact that the current President negotiated the United States-Mexico-Canada Agreement (USMCA) in 2018, the administration has turned its back on that agreement in a campaign to, at the very least, intimidate and cow Canadian leadership. It is not yet clear if this administration will expand its coercive efforts beyond tariff policy.
A parenthetical note about U.S. administration policies regarding the USMCA: since the U.S. has violated the USMCA with respect to economic relations with both Canada and Mexico, it is not clear why any nation would believe that the U.S. would honor any future trade agreement made with this administration. At the very least, considering the wide range of restrictive tariffs this administration has imposed on nations around the world, and the time it takes to negotiate and enact lasting trade policies, it suggests that trade policy with the U.S. will be in flux for the entirety of the second trump administration.
Jacobsen: What actions by the U.S. administration damaged diplomatic rapport with Canada?
Cowden: The U.S. administration has damaged diplomatic rapport with Canada in a number of ways. One way was violating the terms of the USMCA in levying restrictive tariffs on Canada. While many of those tariffs have been rolled back, tariffs on aluminum, steel and oil (for example) are still in place. Another way is to belittle the previous Prime Minister by referring to him as a “governor”, implying he was only the leader of a future U.S. state, not the elected head of state of a sovereign nation. Given that nation is the closest ally and economic partner of the United States, this statement was viewed as being deeply offensive. Finally, the most egregious action has been to state that the U.S. seeks to make Canada the 51st state through economic coercion. For some reason this administration does not recognize the importance of national sovereignty under international law, or its relationship to national pride, security, and autonomy.
A parenthetical note about U.S. policy: when the President says something, that is U.S. policy. Normally, presidential statements of any import are preceded by consideration through the interagency process. In this process, the applicable departments of the U.S. government staff the issue at hand, considering all the known and anticipated ramifications of a proposed policy, often with consultation with Congress, before it is announced by the president. No such process exists under the current administration; in this administration, the president makes statements, either through executive orders, interviews, or posts on social media (one of which, Truth Social, he owns), and that constitutes U.S. policy. Of particular note, there appears to be no real effort to engage Congress in any way, even to enact legislation to implement policies that require legislation.
Jacobsen: How is Canada evolving its response to unreliability in U.S. treaty obligations?
Cowden: I have not been following Canadian political efforts closely, but I would note that the newly elected Prime Minister, Mark Carney, has been the leader of two national banking systems, and is as well-equipped as any head of government to engage in and craft economic policy. I have predicted for some time that Canada would be looking both east to Europe and west to Asia to diversify its economic relationships so that it is not as economically reliant on the USMCA. (3)
Jacobsen: Canada is treated as a ’51st state.’ What are the rhetorical, symbolic, or policy, motives for this?
Cowden: With regard to Canada’s response to the unreliability of U.S. treaty obligations, see my previous reply. I would add that my understanding is that currently, oil pipelines that move oil from Canada’s western provinces to its eastern maritime provinces dip down into the U.S., but that a previously planned, but later cancelled, project to build a pipeline across Ontario will be re-started. This would allow Canada to easily ship western oil to eastern seaports without relying on U.S. oil pipeline infrastructure. This would allow Canada to more easily export oil to other markets without going through the U.S.
Jacobsen: How will North American strategic and economic stability be impacted by the current trends in U.S.-Canada relations?
Cowden: Incredible as it is to say, the motivation for U.S. policy to pursue making Canada the 51st state of the United States appears to be that the president himself does not view Canadian sovereignty as being legitimate, right, or necessary.
If current trends in U.S.-Canada relations continue, it will negatively affect the national wealth of both the U.S. and Canada. I believe permanent damage has been done to the U.S.-Canada economic, diplomatic, security, and popular relationship. Canadian citizens, arguably the most polite and accommodating people in the world, are seriously upset with current U.S. policy. Canada now knows that the U.S. political process can elect a president willing to violate his own trade agreements and other international norms, standards, rules and laws in dealing with other nations, including its closest (literally!) economic, diplomatic, and security ally, partner, and friend.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Anthony.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/07
Shonali Paul, founder of Paul John Indian Caffeine Company, discusses the impact of U.S. customs regulations and tariffs on small business logistics. Tariffs raise product costs, forcing companies to adjust shipment sizes and timing, or shift production domestically. While higher prices affect customers, Paul believes transparency—like listing tariffs as separate line items—builds trust. For businesses dependent on imports, adapting models to factor in regulatory changes is crucial. Although increased paperwork may result, the cost burden is more significant. Paul emphasizes reviewing finances, improving efficiencies, and maintaining honest communication with customers to navigate these evolving challenges effectively.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How do U.S. customs regulations affect company logistics and shipping strategies?
Shonali Paul: For companies that rely on imports especially it will greatly affect the timing, and quantity of shipment they bring in. Because the tariffs raise prices they have to reduce overall cost any way they can, which could be the shipping cost making it take longer to arrive or even the quantity of the product being brought in due to the overall capital expenditure caps companies may have.
Jacobsen: How will regulatory changes impact the cost structure for products?
Paul: With the current tariffs we will see prices of products increase for customers unfortunately. But it has pushed companies to buy domestically and even move production to the states which will have a positive impact on jobs and the overall economy.
Jacobsen: What steps can communicate changes and delays to customers to keep transparency and trust?
Paul: I think the best way is to mention the tariffs as a separate line item that could be applicable if they remain or not if eliminated. That gives customers the most transparent reason for the cost escalation.
Jacobsen: What are long-term implications for small businesses who rely heavily on cross-border e-commerce?
Paul: It will affect their bottom line, and they will have to rework their business model to include tariffs even in part if they stay in place.
Jacobsen: Will there be increased paperwork and compliance requirements for formal entry processing for shipments?
Paul: There may be an added layer of paperwork for products that may not have had any import fees but not much of a change for those that did, it would just be an increase in the cost.
Jacobsen: Are you exploring partnerships with other logistics providers or considering U.S.-based distribution?
Paul: As a coffee company we have no choice but to import coffee from global regions as America doesn’t grow coffee except in Hawaii. Our mission is to bring Indian coffee to the US Market. We have always used a domestic packaging company but those that haven’t have started to look domestically for packaging solutions now.
Jacobsen: Any advice for other small business owners facing similar hurdles due to regulations and suspensions?
Paul: My advice is to look at your numbers and see where things can be improved and explain to customers very transparently the increase in cost. I do think most are understanding of that.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Shonali.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/07
When I was a teenager, because I was a difficult kid, I was kicked out of the house for a few months. I got to know, befriend, and like old people more than young people of my cohort. Now, I like mentoring the young, from time to time, and befriending the old, still more.
When I was a teen, also, I worked a bit in construction at a truss factory and in construction with my alcohol misusing father. There was an old man, named Nick: l call him, “Old Nick”—because I’ve always called him Old Nick—who mentored me. We worked side-by-side; or, rather, I worked by his side.
I helped him. I matched his pace. He taught me. I learned, not everything, from him. Construction sites are interesting. They’re dirty.
There’s gravel.
There’s wood.
There’s rebar, rubble, and concrete.
There’s plastic, hard and flowy soft, from packaging, strewn on the property.
There are ‘hard’ hats.
There are belts.
There are hammers, forklifts, cranes, scissor lifts.
There’re frames, concrete forms.
There’re alcoholics, substance misusers, or just drunks and junkies.
There’re regulars, part-timers, life restarters, newcomers, crusty master craftsman, and just plain old labourers and safety inspectors and formans.
Maybe, they show up on time. Maybe, they show up all day. Maybe, they work.
Maybe, they don’t, in each case.
Men, some, raised by the bottle and a back of a hand.
The type who verbally inverted and made an emotionally abusive introject.
Old Nick seemed to come out of this tradition. The idea being: Suck it up, hammer that nail, next.
Nick’s routine was simple: Smokes, banana at lunch, green tea, more smokes, go home.
His pace was slow.
His slow was methodical, like drying concrete. It just form-fit to the pace of that particular day.
I loved listening to his words. They were paced, respectful, tinged with embers of regret at times. A sort of “this is it” of sentiment. Then the smoke would rise from his lips.
He was divorced, estranged from his kids at the time. He had had a substance misuse problem, regarding alcohol. If he was of the time, and of that subculture, a hard life, he would be someone who drank beer, regular beer, whether a IPA or a darker like a Guinness.
Yet, when I met him, I could not tell such a thing happening in the past, certainly not in the present.
He was the ember. His skin cracked like embers rumbled.
I appreciated his mentorship at the time. The opportunity to work with him. Construction was hard, and worth it—though wasn’t great at it. We would talk about the work at hand, and then occasionally about other things.
I learn about the estrangement. I asked if he had any regrets. The body told the story he was unwilling to confront. I worked on and off with him for many months and on more than one worksite. I finished working in construction.
I moved onto other endeavours. It was increasingly a distant memory, but important to reflect upon as a life developmental stage. Everyone should do hard labour for a period of time in youth. If too late in life, then it’s unlikely to express the beneficial effects upon the core psyche.
They remain air people, only.
I’ve worked as a janitor, farm hand, ranch hand, dishwasher, food prepper, landscaper, gardener, busser, cashier, etc. All essential life lessons can be gathered from this. But life goes on. I’ve contemplated death in walks through cemetery in my old town as a child, as a teenager, as an adult. You get value in those lessons too.
Then I was at a funeral years later.
Who was there? Old Nick. I asked him. Something like this.
“How are you, old man?”
“Good, you?”
“Been better, a death, you know?”
“Sure, of course.”
[Innocent naughty jokes and banter.]
“Shhhh! Scotty… you’re not supposed to tell them!”
[Laughter, about to leave—passing recollection]
“Hey…Nick, did you ever reconcile?” (With his kids)
[Pause.]
“…yeah.”
He seemed to have lied. His body told the truth.
That’s a pity.
It’s life.
Eventually, rebar rusts, and concrete cracks, too.
So thanks, Nick—between banana, smokes, and embers—you gave some of what little you had, to me. Thank you.
Thank you.
Thank you.
You weren’t always old. You saw.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/06
Foundation of the British Columbia Firmament
The Father of British Columbia, Sir James Douglas, is worshipped in the community where I grew up. Not for nothing, he had achievements, but he had a mixed history in numerous ways. He had a “mixed history” as HBC Chief Factor and colonial governor. He granted monopolistic privileges to his company and family.
This mixed public office and private profit. He imposed property-based voting qualifications, excluding full representation. He set forth unfair First Nations treaties. The Douglas Treaties were signed on blank sheets, with terms inserted afterward—an unusual practice. Unilaterally, these were later signed, resulting in Indigenous signatories having land cessions that were not fully known.
He had a heavy-handed gold rush policy with licensing schemes and delayed enforcement during the Fraser Canyon conflict. These failed to protect Indigenous communities. Violence and village burnings ensued. He recruited black Californian settlers for political loyalty. It was opportunistic rather than principled efforts for the enfranchisement of blacks. He was from Guyana. A fascinating history to learn about one’s happenstance of contingent past circumstances: his contemporary presentation is not an exercise in false equivalence. It is about a united duality of positive and negative valence.
The living recent history reflects this mixed history in Fort Langley, out of Langley, with the crossovers between hipster intellectual farmers and well-educated, well-off Evangelical Christians, Trinity Western University, and the political shenanigans of Christians here impacting the federal level of the country. I wanted to cover some of this controversial recent history, as having a singular reference for some of the township’s more noteworthy shenanigans. For clarity, I speak as a former member of one of the heritage committees of an association in Fort Langley and another for the Township of Langley. I can say, “Heritage matters to Langleyites.” As an elder Euro-Canadian lady told me on the committee, a fellow committee member, it was in a sharp snarl once at a meeting, “I know who you are.” These were not isolated events throughout my life while growing up and through there. So it goes.
The contemporary Evangelical Christian story in Fort Langley began with a sexual misconduct allegation of the longest-standing university president in Canadian history: 2005-2006 with former university president Neil Snider. I would rather this not be the case, but it is the history. Something worth repeating.
2005–2015: Institutional Unease and Image Discipline
He had the longest tenure of any Canadian university president—32 years–and greatly grew Trinity Western University (TWU) in its early decades. That is a testament to his prowess as an administrator of resources and an inspirer of people at the time. In their terminology, he had the Holy Spirit in him.
Unfortunately, an uncomfortable truth was his retirement in 2006 following sexual misconduct allegations. Internal reports from TWU and contemporary media reviews questioned the administrative decisions around this. The community is embarrassed by it and tries to cover it up. I understand that part. It happens with clergy-related abuse cases too: Institutional protection. However, as one colleague’s mom who worked with him said to me, in a way to excuse it, “He was lonely,” because either his wife died or he was divorced. I leave considerations of the elasticity of excuse-making to the reader.
ChristianWeek’s “Trinity Western Resolves Human Rights Complaint” documented the 2005 human rights complaint against Snider. The settlement impacted subsequent policy reviews. Former faculty interviews showed early signs of institutional unease. Evangelical leaders have undergone these scandals.
A CAUT Report, “Report of an Inquiry Regarding Trinity Western University,” examined the requirement for faculty to affirm the religious Covenant. You can see TWU’s current Community Covenant. William Bruneau and Thomas Friedman examined the requirement for faculty to affirm the Covenant and possible impacts on academic hiring and free speech. Case studies and personal accounts of faculty are incorporated. It is a referenced report in academic discussions on religion and academia in Canada.
University Affairs via “A test of faith at Trinity Western” provided an analytic retrospective of early administrative policies, linking them to later legal challenges–more on that in 2016-2018. Christian universities seem highly conscious of their public image, because they theologically see themselves as at odds with the secularist world. For example, in 2011, the Institute for Canadian Values funded an advertisement opposing LGBTI-inclusive education, which was supported by the Canada Christian College. It was published by the National Post and later by the Toronto Sun. A national backlash happened. An apology ensued—a retraction happened by the Post, but not by the Sun.
2005-2015 was a busy few years. Ex-administrators and archival internal memos showed dissent regarding mandatory religious practices. Similar controversies happen in religious universities in Canada, all private, all Christian. The largest is Evangelical, and the largest is TWU, in Langley. After trying to get many interviews with professors and dissenting students in the community, the vast majority declined over many years of journalistic efforts, and a few agreed to a coffee conversation to express opinions. Most opinions dissent from the norm of TWU while affirming the difficulties for the faith with these straight-and-narrow executives, who are not reined in, reign with impunity, and rain neglect on their community’s inner Other.
2016–2018: The Covenant and the Courts
Circa 2016, some online commentators mentioned how they felt “bad for the kids that realize they’re not straight” at TWU as “Coming out is hard,” and “it’s crazy that people still want to go to this school.” A former student acknowledged some student support for LGBTI peers while warning many feel “quite ostracized” by an “unspoken aura” repressing non-Christian views. An LGBTI student may have to “repress their urges based on a stupid covenant.”
Other online forums include a former student union leader noting the “community covenant is outdated” even by 2013, while another urged the university to rethink the Covenant. Saying there is a “thriving rape culture,” “I know more than five girls who were raped [at TWU], who didn’t report it because they believed they would be shamed and not taken seriously.”
Maclean’s in “The end of the religious university?” talked about the long-standing interest in the national debate around religious mandates in higher education and the central role of TWU. These controversies about academic freedom following Snider’s resignation would echo some other community elements there. BBC News commented that Canada approved a homophobic law school in 2013. This would eventually evolve poorly for TWU and reflect terribly on the surrounding community.
Xtra Magazine’s “The Painful Truth About Being Gay at Canada’s Largest Christian University” featured a series of robust testimonies from current and former students on systemic discrimination. The magazine also examined campus surveys, student blogs, and some student activist groups, with a case study of academic panels addressing LGBTI issues within religious institutions. The Supreme Court of Canada issued its decision on TWU’s Law School accreditation in 2018. It was analyzed by legal journals and cited in academic papers. Those looked to religious mandates and the tensions with legal equality.
CBC News in “Trinity Western loses fight for Christian law school as court rules limits on religious freedom ‘reasonable’”provided a comprehensive timeline of developments with constitutional lawyer and civil rights advocacy commentary. Other commentaries looked at policy adjustments following from institutions. The Tyee chimed into the discussion with “Trinity Western University Loses in Supreme Court,” with some parables into the personal narratives on campus, more timeline events, and a more important emphasis on the long-term impact on the reputation of TWU.
Knowing some minority facets of dynamics in this community, many will slander others and lie to protect themselves, particularly their identity as represented via the incursion of Evangelical Orthodoxy into the community via the university. This small township’s controversies went to the Supreme Court of Canada. They lost in a landslide decision, 7-2. The Vancouver Sun had various coverage, with international critiques comparing TWU’s controversy to European and Australian scandals. Regardless, TWU brought global spotlight on a small township, a tiny town.
Global human rights organizations gave commentary. TWU dropped the Community Covenant as mandatory, but only for students, while staff, faculty, and administration maintained it. A TWU student asserted on Reddit:
TWU student here. The only two reasons why the Board of Governors chose to drop the Covenant for students is because a) The recent court ruling, and b) Their other professional programs (counselling, nursing, and teaching) received letters from their respective accrediting bodies which threatened to pull accreditation unless the Covenant was amended or discarded.
TWU’s decision to make signing the Covenant voluntary for students has nothing to do with morality or human rights, but everything to do with their business model. Keep in mind, the faculty still must sign the pledge, and TWU’s mission and mandate of producing “godly Christian leaders” has not changed.
The next era was 2019-2021.
2019–2021: Cultural Stagnation Despite Legal Losses
Xtra Magazine in “I am queer at Trinity Western University. What will it take for my university to listen to me?” provided a more individual story. Carter Sawatzky wrote, “TWU’s decision in 2018 to make the Covenant non-mandatory for students also did not magically change the discriminatory treatment of queer people. After TWU’s 2018 Supreme Court loss, many folks, including myself, had hoped that TWU would finally demonstrate that it can be rooted in faith and radically loving and welcoming. Instead, TWU has doubled down on its social conservatism, at the expense of queer students like myself.” An international scandal and Supreme Court defeat did not change the culture or the school. That is instructive.
Another instructive moment was a student suicide attempt followed by an expulsion of the student. In “Her university expelled her after she attempted suicide, saying she had an ‘inability to self-regulate.’ Now she is fighting back,” the Toronto Star presented the case of a student showing broader systemic issues and a lack of mental health resources and policy failures within TWU. TWU claimed otherwise. Mental health professionals and relatives of students commented. As CBC has noted, mental health on campuses has been a point of concern for a while.
2021–2025: Repression, Image, and Intimidation
Langley is a township where I am told the murder of the famous atheist Madalyn Murray O’Hair was merciful. An older gentleman saying, “Her murder was an act of mercy.” Langley Advance Times in “Private Langley University rejects LGBTQ+ event request” reported denying an event request, One TWU Stories Night, for an LGBTI group, One TWU. Carter Sawatzky said, “We are sharing our stories, which I think should be a non-controversial thing… It is not a contradiction. You can be queer and Christian… Many people come to TWU and have never heard an LGBTQ story.” That is a reasonable statement. A One TWU piece published on its site claims homophobia is rampant on campus.
CBC News reported on the manslaughter conviction of a TWU security guard. “Former guard at B.C. university found guilty of manslaughter” reported a Fall 2020 event involving “a man wearing all black” who wandered into student residences, rifling through their things. Security guard Howard Glen Hill hit the man, Jack Cruthers Hutchison, “in the head, pulled his hair and spat on him.” Police arrived: Hill was “in a neck restraint, limp and unresponsive. He died in the hospital two days later.” Hutchison was charged with manslaughter. TWU’s statement: “The university has no comment on the court ruling. TWU’s commitment has always been to safeguard our campus community, and we continue to provide a safe place of learning for all our students.”
Langley Union, in “Trinity Western University President’s Son Linked to Prolific White Nationalist Account,” investigated digital forensic evidence of the son of the President of TWU linked to a White Nationalist online account. The son’s actions should be considered separate from the father’s and the institutions. However, they are striking news.
The accounts claimed, among other assertions, “I believe in a white future. An Aryan future. A future where my children will make Indian Bronson shine our shoes. Where brown people cannot secure a line of credit, Black people pick cotton. We will win – this is what we fight for,” and “I am a colonialist. I make no effort to hide this. I believe in worldwide white supremacy.”
The Nelson Star reported in “‘Alt-right’ group uses Fort Langley historic site as meeting place” on the use of the local pub in Fort Langley as a meeting place for a public, so known and self-identified White Nationalist group. As one former boss noted, “I don’t know what is wrong with we the white race.” That is a sentiment, not an organization, however. This microcosm reflects a broader history of Canadian sociopolitics with race and religion, some Evangelicals and occasional allegations of racialism if not racism.
TWU’s policy is Inclusive Excellence. “We aim to promote a consistent atmosphere of inclusion and belonging at TWU by establishing a shared commitment to diversity and equity founded in the gospel’s truth. Christ came to save, reconcile, and equip all people (Rev. 7:9), and the incredible array of gifts God has given us is evidence of his creativity, beauty, and love of diversity,” it states. An administrator is reported to have said informally that the event was ‘not in line with Evangelical values.’
In the States, a trend in international Evangelical higher education is here too. Bob Jones University banned interracial dating until 2000, involving federal funding and accreditation debates. In Australia, Christian colleges faced scrutiny for policies excluding LGBTI+ students and staff. Faith-based codes and equality laws produced tensions in the United Kingdom, though less prominently than in Canada. Those American churches want to influence Canada in Indigenous communities. Some Canadian churches have Ojibwe pastors, for example.
A Medium (Xtra) post entitled “The painful truth about being gay at Canada’s largest Christian university” commented on the experience of a gay student, Jacob.’ As peers messaged Jacob on suspicion of him being gay, “We hate everything about you and you better watch your back because we are going to kill you on your way to school.” At TWU ‘Jacob,’ said, “I loved the community here so much that I did not want to jeopardize those relationships.” That is called a closet.
Another student, Corben, from Alberta at TWU, said, “My parents, I think, kind of wanted Trinity to be for me sort of like reparative therapy, which is why they would only help financially with this school.” Former Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau put forth a move to end Conversion Therapy, a discredited pseudotherapy to change sexual orientation and gender identity. Conversion therapy has been banned in Malta (2016), Germany (2020), France (2022), Canada (2022), New Zealand (2022), Iceland (2023), Spain (2023), Mexico (2024), Greece (2024), and Belgium (2024). That is only TWU, however. The community of Langley, specifically Fort Langley, where I was raised, is substantively linked to this place.
Langley Advance Times in “Blackface photo in 2017 Chilliwack yearbook sparks apology from school principal” reported on a blackface incident at a local school. It was part of a “mock trial.” So, bad taste in community, and the excuse for Snider’s example will likely do the same in this case over term. There are several cases of sexual misconduct cases in British Columbia and Canada. The Archdiocese of Vancouver was the first in Canada to publicly name clergy involved in sexual abuse and decades of abuse. At the same time, other prominent cases have arisen, including Michael Conaghan, Damian Lawrence Cooper, and Erlindo Molon, highlighting a pattern of clerical sexual exploitation and inadequate accountability in British Columbia. I would rather this not be the case, but it is the history.
In 2022, a TWU dean resigned amid pressure over her work on gender issues. One Reddit–and all Reddit commentary should be considered additions, while anecdotal at best–user described how TWU leaders had “tried to make her leave her position as dean because she… stated she was an lgbtq+ ally,” then issued bureaucratic statements of grief based on her departure.
Living there, these excuses likely flowed through social media. At the same time, community intimidation happens, too. It is bad for the community image and bad for the business. People have an interest in narrative morphing. As gay students find at TWU, and as outsiders as others find in the general community, it is mostly not about moral stances, but about image maintenance and business interests. Money matters because it is a well-to-do area of the country and a wealthy nation worldwide. There is regular township nonsense where the Fort Langley Night Market gets closed down due to vandalism and alcohol.
Ongoing online conversations about TWU degree quality continue, “So before those say ‘it’s an immigration scam’, it’s not and is essentially useless towards immigrating/coming to Canada. With that said, most of TWU’s programs are also useless to use towards immigrating, even if studied in person, because any non-degree program from a private school does not allow one to apply for a PGWP. However, it offers a couple of degree programs that can result in a PGWP.”
Brandon Gabriel and Eric Woodward have been at loggerheads for at least a decade. If you look at the original history, this reflects another fight between an Indigenous leader and the colonial presence in its history. Now, they are a local artist and developer, respectively. Woodward has a camp of supporters for development and a camp of detractors. Another mixed figure in the contemporary period of Langley. Over development concerns and pushback, Woodward got a building painted pink in protest at one point. It is a serious township history full of a minority of loud, silly people imposing their nonsense on a smaller group of innocent bystanders.
Whether LGBTI discrimination ensconced at its university, a blackface principal, homophobia, this isn’t unusual in a way. A constellation of apparent White Nationalist superminority undercurrents popping up, and with worship of a founder in a democracy who was a mixed-race colonialist timocrat married to a Cree woman, it’s a story of a Canadian town and municipality. A tale of how foundational myths, when left unexamined, morph into social realities.
Welcome to Langley–a light introduction: Home, sorta.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/06
Rev. Dr. John C. Lentz Jr. served over 30 years as Lead Pastor of Forest Hill Presbyterian Church in Cleveland Heights, Ohio. Known for passionate preaching, community leadership, and a commitment to justice and compassion, he profoundly shaped the Church’s mission before retiring in 2024 after a celebrated ministry. Lentz reflects on his 30-year tenure at Forest Hill Presbyterian Church, where he inherited the traumatic legacy of sexual abuse by a former associate pastor. Lentz details the Church’s response—early efforts at acknowledgment, limited legal options, and survivor support—highlighting the structural weaknesses in denominational accountability. He explores systemic patterns of abuse across denominations, including the role of clerical authority, enabling networks, and institutional cover-ups. Drawing from neuroscience, psychology, and theology, Lentz emphasizes the importance of independent investigations, seminary reform, and third-party oversight. He warns against simplistic narratives that scapegoat Catholicism alone and calls for nuanced, data-driven reform efforts across religious institutions. He discussed how virtues like compassion and forgiveness, without accountability, can become vulnerabilities. Both advocate for cultural and institutional reforms rooted in moral clarity, survivor support, and transparent justice processes. The dialogue ultimately calls for partnership—not polarization—in addressing clergy abuse.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, you are a former pastor at Forest Hill Presbyterian Church. What is the story there? We can use that as a context for a broader conversation about a wider phenomenon.
Rev. Dr. John Lentz: Yes. I served as pastor at Forest Hill Church for thirty years, from 1994 to 2024. During my final interview before being offered the position, the search committee told me something they felt I needed to know. They said, “John, we need to tell you this because it might affect your decision to come here.” They explained that a previous associate pastor had been involved in the sexual abuse of youth in the congregation.
That wasn’t comforting to hear. Here is what I learned so from personal knowledge: In 1977, Reverend Dale Small became the associate pastor at Forest Hill Church. He came from another congregation in the Detroit area of Michigan. His primary responsibilities were overseeing the confirmation program and leading retreat and camping ministries. He served in that role until 1981.
Afterward, he retired and was granted the honorary title of pastor emeritus. He moved to North Carolina following his retirement. In 1984, he organized a reunion-style camping trip for former youth members of Forest Hill Church in North Carolina. During that event, one former youth participant—by then in his twenties—experienced a resurgence of traumatic memories related to prior abuse. He left the trip and returned home.
Later that year, he and his parents sent a letter to the Church’s governing body (the session) reporting that Dale Small had sexually abused him. The letter also mentioned other possible victims, although it is unclear how many individuals were named or how those claims were verified.
When I joined the Church in 1994, ten years after that disclosure, I learned that the session at the time had responded by engaging a consultant—though I do not know their name—to assess what actions should be taken to support the congregation, particularly its youth. They also reportedly sent letters to families whose children had been part of the youth group or confirmation classes during that period, asking whether anything inappropriate had occurred.
It was reported that at least half a dozen boys came forward, identifying themselves as victims of abuse. Many of these boys came from homes where the father was absent or where the family structure had been disrupted. All of the reported victims were male.
Even years later, I encountered the impact of this traumatic history. One individual told me he had been abused not directly by Reverend Small but by someone who had themselves been abused and possibly groomed by Small. I also became close to someone a few years younger than me who eventually disclosed that he had been one of the victims. He confided in me and described the abuse in detail.
His account matched what is now known to be common patterns in clergy abuse cases: identifying vulnerable boys, assuming the role of a surrogate father figure, using pastoral authority to gain trust, showing excessive attention, and initiating inappropriate physical contact during church retreats—starting with massages and escalating to sexual abuse.
As more stories emerged, it was essential to support survivors in any way I could. I recall one conversation with a survivor in which I said, “Whatever you need, I will help. Let’s pursue justice if that’s what you want.” By that time, Reverend Small had passed away so that any legal recourse would have been limited. Still, the priority was to provide acknowledgment, support, and whatever healing was possible.
There was also a statute of limitations, and unfortunately, it was heartbreaking. The abuse survivor did not want to proceed. He still had such mixed and conflicted emotions about this man—someone he said he loved and who, he believed, loved him. You can imagine the emotional complexity and heartbreak that comes with hearing something like that.
Then Dale Small died, so pursuing anything in a legal sense became moot. I did ensure, however, that he was no longer listed as pastor emeritus. I also informed our local presbytery, which removed Dale Small from the rolls as a retired and honourably retired pastor.
I have probably left out many details, but that’s the general account. That part is fact—that is what I know to be true. What lies in the murkier areas—and this is what makes it so difficult—is that there were some alleged incidents of misconduct at Dale Small’s previous Church in Michigan. Now, my predecessor—whom I overall have great respect for and who was a prominent leader in this community—knew Dale Small personally. He was the one who called and invited him to serve at Forest Hill Church.
I cannot say with any degree of certainty, and I have no evidence, that he knew of the abuse or that he was abused. But, from what I understand, he may have been a classic enabler.
Jacobsen: I believe Margaret Atwood was asked in an interview last year about Alice Munro. She said something about boundaries in response to a question about that situation. She did the interview. She was asked about Alice Munro, who has passed away. The interviewer mentioned that Munro’s daughter was abused by her stepfather when she was a single digit age. Someone brought this to Munro’s attention at the time, but she did not act. Atwood’s response was something along the lines of, “I was a professional friend, not a confidant.”
Does that kind of analysis apply to your friend as well?
Lentz: Which friend do you mean? The contemporary friend or the pastor?
Jacobsen: The older pastor—your predecessor.
Lentz: I do not know. When the allegations surfaced, my predecessor said he was not aware of them. To his credit—and this is based on what I’ve heard—he did not attempt to block any investigation. I know several of the church leaders from that time, including the church attorney.
To the best of my knowledge, my predecessor did not attempt to hinder any of the investigations into the allegations. Nor, to my knowledge, did he defend Pastor Small publicly or in any official letters. I do not want to say more than that because I genuinely do not know. One other piece, which I admit could be me defending my institution—and I recognize that possibility—but I will put it out there. Since these events occurred before my tenure, I can view them with some degree of objectivity and a certain distance.
I believe that Forest Hill Church’s response to supporting victims was one of the earlier public acknowledgments of sexual abuse within the Presbyterian Church. I am not sure if it made national news. Still, I do think it contributed to a shift in the atmosphere within the denomination. It helped initiate the process of establishing guardrails and accountability measures for clergy, lay leaders, and all church employees. That much, I believe, is true. So, that’s that part of the story.
Another related experience occurred about fifteen years ago—I can provide you with the exact dates. As part of myresponsibilities within the presbytery, I served as the chair of the Permanent Judicial Commission, essentially functioning as the chief justice for that body. Charges were brought against a currently serving pastor.
What was interesting—and, in some ways, troubling—was how the authority of the Presbyterian Church functioned in that context. While there are sound theological and ecclesial reasons for this structure, there was a failure of process. Ultimately, we could only remove his ordination. We had no authority to initiate legal proceedings, and we, as the presbytery, could not bring criminal charges ourselves, as I understood it.
Once this pastor renounced the jurisdiction of the Church under Presbyterian canon law, we were unable to pursue the matter further. The policy has since changed. Now, I believe we are required to retain investigative files for a designated number of years so that in the event of a criminal trial, our findings and testimony can be used as evidence.
Jacobsen: What have you observed as not helpful in other denominations’ responses to abuse cases?
Lentz: Let me think about that for a moment. I would say this, and I want to be careful. I understand the deep trust that exists between a parishioner and a pastor and how meaningful that relationship is—especially in contexts involving confession or personal disclosure.
In the Presbyterian Church, we do not treat confession the same way the Roman Catholic Church does. However, I believe that using a pastoral or confessional setting to protect a perpetrator is entirely unacceptable. That kind of confidentiality should not be used to shield someone from justice.
I know that in some parts of the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-day Saints and the Roman Catholic Church, there is still a strong emphasis on absolute confidentiality in such contexts, even when crimes are confessed. That greatly concerns me.
Other issues are more anecdotal. For example, I believe many pastors—myself included, at times—can have an inflated sense of both ego and expertise. Some pastors begin to think they are a person’s primary psychological therapist. But I am not a therapist—I am a pastor. My role, at best, is to triage and then refer people to professionals who are trained in mental health care.
So, when pastors assume too much authority—whether because of how they interpret scripture or the power given to them by their role—they sometimes overstep. That is dangerous. Accountability is essential.
We now have a system in place in the Presbyterian Church where pastors are designated legal reporters. If I hear of abuse,I am required to report it. If an accusation is made against me, a formal process begins. It involves the clerk of the session—who is the top layperson in the Church—and the associate pastor, among others. There are clearly defined steps now.
There is a whole process for adjudicating these kinds of accusations. Therefore, any denomination that lacks a clear and transparent process should be held accountable in some way. I’m not sure what that accountability would look like in every case. Still, at the very least, they should be publicly called out—shamed, even—for failing to take these issues seriously.
Another significant gap I see is in seminaries. I still do not believe that enough is being taught about the seriousness of sexual abuse in church contexts—how to hold oneself accountable, how to hold others accountable, and how to actively create a culture where abuse does not occur under your care. That is a structural problem that needs urgent attention.
Jacobsen: Are there areas where there is such hypervigilance that it becomes counterproductive—where it reflects broader cultural anxiety rather than actual prevention?
Lentz: Yes, that is a great question. One of the unfortunate byproducts of necessary hypervigilance—because it is needed—is that it can sometimes create a feeling of suspicion or fear that deters good people from volunteering.
Take, for example, a family with two children in Sunday school. The parents want to help out, but now they are required to go through multiple steps, including a criminal background check, safety training, abuse prevention protocols, and more. None of these are inherently evil. They are reasonable and necessary measures that send a clear message: “We take this seriously. We want to protect your child and you.”
But on the flip side, it can also unintentionally send a different message: “There must be a real problem here if the safeguards are this extensive.” That perception, although unintended, has deterred some well-meaning volunteers.
Another example is how we set specific guidelines in Forest Hill Church’s child safety policy. We outlined exactly how many adults must be present in a room, who is allowed to escort children to the bathroom, who can drive them, and who can supervise them. But inevitably, gray areas arise.
Say a father is volunteering, and everyone else has gone home. One child remains, and the parents have not arrived yet. The volunteer calls to report the situation, and the response used to be something like, “Thank you for checking in—please go ahead and take little Johnny home.” Today, in that same situation, I might think, “Have we now created a liability risk or a situation where something could go wrong?”
That said, in my experience as a pastor, most people appreciate how far we go to protect children. More and more parents today, when searching for a church, are actively asking whether we have a sexual misconduct policy, whether our Sunday school teachers are trained, and what our prevention strategies are. So, no—I do not think the hypervigilance has been a net negative in my experience.
Jacobsen: Do you think third-party investigations are essential in these cases? Independent reviews beyond the Church itself.
Lentz: Third-party investigations are vital. You can have all the internal reforms and guardrails in place, but without independent review, it lacks credibility. Even from a purely public standpoint, it is essential.
When something happens at a church, you cannot simply handle it internally. You have to be willing to make that call—to law enforcement or an external body. Yes, it might create bad optics, but that is the cost of doing the right thing. Transparency is not optional; it is the moral and ethical price you pay for being entrusted with people’s lives and trust.
It would be hard—I am not saying it would not be difficult. As a pastor, I might very well know the person involved. They may have texted me; I may have attended social engagements with them; I may have even officiated at their child’s wedding. I can imagine how excruciating that would be. But even so, we cannot just say no. If a crime has been committed or alleged, you have to follow through with it—no matter how personally painful it may be.
Jacobsen: From a pastoral point of view, what do you think were the motivations behind the policies of silence or secrecy instituted by some denominations—especially the Catholic Church—when they reassigned clergy to other parishes after misconduct or when they attempted quiet reintegration?
Lentz: Obviously, this is speculative. I do not have direct evidence, so I want to acknowledge that upfront. But I can speak based on what I have observed and discussed with others. The theological or ecclesiastical justification, particularly in Catholicism, often revolves around the sanctity of the confessional. The idea is that when someone confesses their sins to a priest and God, that moment is sacred and protected. The confessional is meant to be inviolable.
I do know priests who would respond to such a confession by saying, “You committed a crime. You need to turn yourselfin.” That is, in my view, an appropriate and responsible response—and I am sure that has happened in some cases. But the reality is that nothing in Catholic doctrine requires the priest to report the crime, even if they know someone has been seriously harmed.
So, you end up with a situation where the confessor might receive absolution, but what happens to the victim? What about restoration? Repentance is not just about the sinner; it has to include the harmed party. Any serious conversation on this issue must include the question of repair—what restoration and justice look like for the victim.
Restorative justice models can be effective in some instances. There may be a time when the parties come together for a mediated conversation. I do not want to push that as a universal solution—it may not be right in many cases—but I can imagine that, for some, it could be a moment of grace.
What absolutely must end is the simplistic, linear model of “I confess, I’m sorry,” and the priest says, “Say five Hail Marys, and you’re forgiven.” That is spiritual malpractice. That’s not justice—it is a distortion of forgiveness. We have to stop perpetuating that.
This problem—of minimizing clergy misconduct—was not unique to Catholicism. It occurred in many denominations. There was a time when someone like Pastor Dale would be described as “overworked” or “stressed,” and people would say he had “poor boundaries.” The solution was often to give him a week off and place him in a new context, hoping that everything would work out.
That is unacceptable. In the Presbyterian Church today, according to our Book of Order and our broader system of governance, such quiet reassignment is no longer permitted.
Does it ever still happen? Unfortunately, probably. But we now have strict guidelines. If any allegations are made, they must be reported to the presbytery. The presbytery must then inform any other presbytery to which the accused might be seeking transfer. That creates a system of accountability where the receiving presbytery is also obligated to act.
Indeed, this type of reassignment has significantly declined in the Presbyterian Church. I do not have complex numbers to offer, but I can say with confidence that the process today is much more rigorous.
Jacobsen: What about the broader implications of these patterns—especially outside of Presbyterian structures?
Lentz: Yes, one of the lingering effects we continue to see—especially in non-Presbyterian contexts, and primarily within the Catholic Church—is the legacy of institutional protectionism. That damage is still unfolding, and I believe it will take generations to address fully.
Jacobsen: An example of institutional failure is the silence, cover-up, and the practice of moving clergy to new parishes. From a mathematical point of view, let’s say you have two abusive clergy members out of 100. If those two are quietly moved around four times to different parishes, that inflates the perception.
What happens is that, although the actual number of perpetrators is two, it begins to look like 10 different parishes have had abuse cases. So it now appears—incorrectly—that 10 out of 100 parishes have had abuse, when in fact it is still only two out of 100. But in the process, justice is delayed, additional harm may be caused, and the institutional reputation is severely damaged.
Do we have any approximate numbers of clergy involved? Because I know it is a sensitive topic. And I think part of the problem is that when this issue was taken up by some of the more strident “New Atheist” voices, it became a tool to bash the entire Church—rather than a sincere attempt to work toward reform.
The better approach would be to work with the innocent clergy and the victims to set up institutional reform while also respecting freedom of religion and belief. What has been your experience with the numbers? Is there any insight you can offer?
Lentz: That’s an important point, and I agree—the goal should be to work with people, not against them, and to protect both accountability and religious freedom. Now, I can only speak from my experience, which is a small sample size. Butin my 30 years of serving in this presbytery—which includes around 50 or 60 churches in the Cleveland area—I am personally aware of three cases.
One of those cases involved a pastor who was not accused of direct abuse but was found to have downloaded child pornography. While no individual victims were identified, that behaviour is, of course, deeply troubling and incompatible with the pastoral role. The other two cases involved clear instances of clergy sexual abuse. Out of approximately 60 churches over the past 30 years, I am aware of three cases. Statistically, that is a small percentage—but each case matters profoundly.
You are right to highlight the danger of inflated perceptions. When a small number of individuals are relocated, and their misconduct is not addressed transparently, it artificially inflates the perception of widespread abuse—and in the meantime, more people are harmed.
That is why, instead of silence, cover-up, and transfer, the institution needs to name the problem directly. This should start as early as seminary training. When I was preparing for ordination, I went through an entire weekend of psychological testing and counselling sessions with trained therapists. These were designed to probe our motivations, character, and readiness. I do not know if seminaries still do that, but they absolutely should—especially concerning issues related to sexuality, power, and boundaries.
We must acknowledge that there has been cover-up in the past. We must blow the top off that silence. We also need a transparent and documented process for transfers. That is one way to limit the potential for repeat offences.
Jacobsen: This is not just a church problem—it is a cultural one, too. We see it in the Larry Nassar case. We see it in Hollywood. Hollywood, in many ways, is even more egregious because these individuals often have more personal power and institutional protection than a single clergy member. So even in these so-called “secular” environments—where there is no ecclesiastical structure—the abuse can be just as bad, if not worse.
Abuse of power transcends the religious and secular divides. Whether it is in churches, Olympic teams, or film studios, the issue is cultural. So the deeper question becomes: What are the cultural forces that serve as accelerants—or brakes—on this kind of behaviour?
How can we develop a culture, especially within religious communities, where clergy do not cross these lines in the first place? Where systems are in place to prevent it? Where the reporting process is trusted and respected? And how do we structure accountability in ways that center victims and deter future abuse?
Those are the questions we need to be asking—not only within our denominations but across institutions, sectors, and ideologies. Additionally, we must acknowledge that there have been significant difficulties in both the recruitment and retention of clergy across many denominations. Several of the challenges stem from stress, workload, and the overall demands of the job. Even so, most pastors still report high levels of job satisfaction.
At the same time, even if those pressures increase vulnerability or create environments where bad things might happen, I want to be very clear—I do not see those as excuses. To explain a phenomenon is not the same as explaining it away—or excusing it.
Lentz: Understanding the context is not the same as offering a justification. It is helpful to recognize the reality of pastoral stress. Some clergy are working 50 to 60 hours a week. That matters for understanding mental health and burnout, but it does not explain—or excuse—abuse.
I’ve worked 60-hour weeks. I’ve had moments where I’ve felt overwhelmed, exhausted, even at my wits’ end. But not once did that ever come close to pushing me toward crossing a grotesque boundary like sexually abusing anyone. So, yes, it’s a factor to consider for context, but I do not believe it’s a cause—at least not in any direct or morally relevant way.
The causes of abuse are deeper. And I’ll admit—I’m stepping a bit outside my expertise here. But that does not mean I will not try to explore it. In the church culture I’ve been part of, there is no ambiguity. Sexual abuse of children—of girls, boys, or anyone—is antithetical to the pastoral call. It is not walking in the way of Jesus. It is not aligned with any authentic understanding of pastoral care.
But here’s something I remember clearly. And I want to be cautious—it is a broad brush. Back in seminary, my friend andI would often discuss this over dinner. We would ask, “How many of our classmates would we want as our pastor?” Andthe answer, unfortunately, was probably not many.
Now, I am not suggesting that any of them were abusive. What I am suggesting is that the pastoral profession may skew toward people who are—how shall I put it—emotionally needy or working through unresolved personal issues. And the Church can be an incredibly welcoming place for those people.
Church culture—at its best—is a culture of radical acceptance. “You are loved. Come in as you are.” That’s beautiful. Butit also creates a space where individuals with deep psychological needs can be affirmed without ever being challenged or helped to heal.
If you are charismatic, if you preach well, if you’re good with kids, if you know how to perform leadership in that context—you get affirmed. And if you have an unaddressed need for ego validation, that culture can place you on a pedestal. That, in turn, can blur boundaries in unhealthy and dangerous ways.
So yes, it is partly about the culture. Perhaps even the culture of acceptance—ironically—can enable these situations. Andyes, many people bring unresolved baggage into ministry roles. If the institution lacks structures for accountability, mentoring, psychological evaluation, and ongoing support, those deeper issues can remain unaddressed.
Jacobsen: So would you say that certain cultural conditions—like unconditional acceptance and an overemphasis on trust—can make it easier for boundary violations to occur?
Lentz: Yes, I think that’s a fair and essential point. The very virtues we value—like grace, compassion, forgiveness, and trust—can become vulnerabilities if rigorous structures for accountability and healthy boundaries do not accompany them. Let me reiterate something clearly, though: I have never heard of a denomination or theological tradition that says it is acceptable to abuse children. That is off the table—always. It would be a strange—and horrifying—thing to hear anyone suggest otherwise. I want to be clear on that.
It is interesting, though, because we do know of some cults where the charismatic pastor or leader—sometimes under the garb of Christianity—claims that to experience true spiritual oneness, one must engage in sex with others. That kind of thing does happen.
Jacobsen: Yes, and it happens in India too—with gurus or spiritual leaders (‘godmen’) claiming divine authority over others, including sexually. But in mainline denominations—traditional churches—anything that has structure and accountability mechanisms meant to transcend the charisma of a single leader, that kind of exploitation is much less likely.
Still, your point is well-taken. I do think that love, inclusion, and acceptance—even the powerful idea that you can be forgiven—are all beautiful and essential aspects of the Christian faith. But they can also create openings in the safety net. And when those openings go unchecked, that’s where danger can creep in.
One of the biggest attractions—and arguably one of the greatest strengths—of the Christian tradition, speaking now as someone not deeply embedded in it, is that it offers hope and meaning to people who are wounded. And let’s be honest—most people are traumatized at some point in their lives.
I walk into almost any setting, assuming that a significant portion of people are essentially “the walking wounded.” Christianity speaks to that. It offers not only a theological answer—through Christian humanism or existential theology—but also a practical framework: continuity, grace, meaning, and healing.
Lentz: There’s a famous, influential book from about 50 years ago by Father Henri Nouwen called The Wounded Healer. His central message was that it is through understanding and embracing our woundedness that we can truly reach out and help others. That idea has been powerful for many. But you can also see how it might inadvertently encourage a culture where emotional pain is romanticized or where red flags get overlooked in the name of compassion. I want to be careful in how I say this, but yes—it can create gaps in the safety net.
Jacobsen: Here are some key statistics that provide a sobering backdrop:
- According to the John Jay Report in the U.S., covering 1950 to 2002, 4% of Roman Catholic priests and deacons were found to have substantiated allegations of abuse.
- The Australian Royal Commission (1950–2010) reported that 7% of priests had substantiated allegations.
- In Germany, the MHG Study (1946–2014) found that 4.4% of clergy accused of abuse.
- In New Zealand, research by the Royal Commission found that 14% of diocesan clergy had been accused, covering both minors and adults.
- Between 1950 and 2022, the Diocese of Worcester recorded 209 total allegations, of which 173 were deemed credible, 28 unsubstantiated, and eight false or withdrawn.
- A 2024 independent report found at least 1,259 clergy offenders in the EKD, although no percentage was provided.
That’s a sobering overview. The Anglican data is somewhat inconsistent, so let us refer to the 2024 Australian Child Maltreatment Study (ACMS). The 2023–24 Australian Child Maltreatment Study reports that 0.4 % of Australians aged 16–24 experienced clergy-perpetrated sexual abuse before age 18.. These cases occurred in religious settings. This suggests a more stringent and specific definition of sexual abuse compared to other studies, likely resulting in a lower prevalence rate.
This brings us to a more nuanced and complex issue: false or malicious reporting. These are extremely sensitive topics. False reports do happen, but research shows they are rare. Meta-analyses place false allegations of sexual violence between roughly 2 % and 10 % of all reports, consistent across multiple jurisdictions.
I was once invited to speak at a Croatian Christian conference as a humanist and journalist. In my presentation, I emphasized that false beliefs and false accusations—though real—must be viewed in the context of a broader, evidence-based response. These elements should not become a distraction from addressing the actual harm.
Jacobsen: Our focus should be on truth-telling and accountability. However, this is not a simple binary issue. There is a complex spectrum of responsibility—individual, institutional, and communal. These cases exist within an overlapping set of ethical and organizational dynamics that need systemic reform. That’s an important contextual point.
Even in situations where confirmed abuse rates are relatively low, there remains the ethical concern: What percentage of other clergy knew about abuse and failed to act? That question speaks to institutional complicity and moral responsibility.
We are examining concentric circles of accountability, including peers at the same hierarchical level (other priests) and superiors (bishops and archbishops), who may have had the authority to intervene but failed to do so.
Additionally, there are members of the laity—individuals in the community who were not directly harmed but knew victims and made excuses for the Church. This dynamic also contributes to a culture of silence and denial.
Understanding this fully requires expert legal and psychological analysis. Some legal scholars and advocates for survivors have been pioneers in this area. So, yes, there is a silver lining—if we acknowledge that the majority of clergy (likely 85–95%) have not committed abuse and may support reform efforts. Many do not want to be unjustly associated with those who committed crimes. It is critical not to tarnish all clergy with the same brush.
That said, there has always been a small segment of the secular community that engages in broad, often reactionary anti-church rhetoric, especially online. This was particularly visible in the mid-2000s to early 2010s. However, we should avoid reactionary cycles. The cultural pendulum may swing, but our moral response should remain clear, proportionate, and grounded in facts.
The more constructive approach is reform—dealing with the actual numbers and then conducting a realistic assessment, working from there. What are your thoughts?
Lentz: You put it well. I concur and support that.
What we clergy have to be careful of is that while it is true that roughly 95% of clergy are good, ethical people who never commit abuse, it can still sound like we’re defending or covering something up. So, we need to be cautious with that framing. But your point is well taken, and it goes back to something I was trying to say earlier.
Silence is not an option. Cover-up is not an option. Transferring the accused is not an option. In theory, this should be straightforward: take every allegation seriously, follow the process, do not cover it up, and do not transfer the accused; instead, involve the legal system when necessary.
Jacobsen: I wonder if the percentage of abusive clergy is comparable to the percentage of people who commit crimes more broadly—such as shoplifting or fraud—or even how, under the Trump administration, there was this narrative that immigrants are more likely to commit crimes.
Lentz: Yet we know from data that immigrants, on average, are more law-abiding than native-born citizens. Therefore, percentages and numbers can be skewed or manipulated. But yes, what you described is essential.
Jacobsen: So, after doing these long-form interviews, a different context emerges. We want to deal with the reality that approximately 95% of clergy, give or take, are not involved in abuse. However, over time, a significant portion of allegations are eventually substantiated when examined in aggregate across multiple institutions and cases.
The standard institutional response, at least historically, has been for clergy and laity to defend the institution. Just look at some of the major scandals. If you’re going to believe someone—well, the odds are, statistically speaking, about 1 in 20 cases may be false or malicious. That’s still uncomfortable, but the presence of false allegations does not justify ignoring the 19 out of 20 that are valid. That’s why we need a robust reform process to deal with both realities.
We require independent verification and investigation conducted externally to the Church. The pattern in some denominations has often been to let the Church investigate itself—which is problematic. What you pointed out earlier—the avoidance, the cover-up, the rotating of offenders—is precisely what should not happen.
Another key pillar is examining the enabling networks—those within the institution that facilitate abuse through silence, complicity, or willful ignorance. That’s where people like Amos Guiora have focused: on both clergy and laity who enabled the abuse. We need to ensure this is embedded in larger cultural conversations. Because this does not only happen in the Church—it’s part of broader human, institutional behaviour.
But the reason it’s so crucial in this particular context is because it’s happening in institutions that claim moral authority. Religious institutions operate under a specific guise that’s supposed to be distinct—providing ethical and spiritual guidance. So, they have a different kind of social power. Accountability must reflect that.
When I interview people from different religious backgrounds, they often equate being spiritual with being moral. That is typically what they mean: “I get my values, meaning, and guidance from religion.” So why not leverage that ethical framework to be leading lights in this area—for the good of the broader culture?
Lentz: Absolutely.
Jacobsen: The other question—though it may take longer to research—is more scientific in nature. For instance, some researchers are looking at long-term dysregulation in people who have been affected by abuse. The direction of the research is pointing toward the physiological and psychological consequences of early trauma.
So, trauma becomes embedded in the brain—at the level of the hypothalamic-pituitary-adrenal (HPA) axis—which governs stress response and shapes physiology. It restructures the brain over time. Minor stressors can trigger significant reactions, and this cumulative wear begins to degrade both cognitive function and emotional regulation.
A colleague is doing some fascinating work. She wants to examine cadaver brains of trauma survivors—women soldiers, for instance—to study the long-term physiological changes caused by trauma. So, the scientific question will probably require long-term research: What is the extent of physiological damage to those who have experienced childhood or clergy-related abuse, especially if the trauma was a singular but profound event?
That’s an important direction for the research. There’s also one last narrative point to make before I get to two questions—if I can remember them. The narrative point is this: We must acknowledge the reality of victimization without reinforcing an identity of permanent victimhood. People should not be excused from personal responsibility because they were harmed—but at the same time, we must recognize that real harm occurred. The goal is to help individuals transition from a survivor mindset to a thriver mindset on their terms.
Lentz: Have you come across any research on the commonly held belief that abusers were themselves abused? I wonder how many clergy abusers have histories of having been abused.
Jacobsen: That’s a good question. Yes, there is research suggesting that while not all abusers were abused, those who were abused are statistically more likely to become abusers themselves than the general population. It’s not deterministic—it’s probabilistic.
Similarly, those who were victimized are also more likely to be revictimized. This is sometimes referred to in the literature as the cycle of abuse or victimization vulnerability, mainly if trauma is not addressed early. So these are related but distinct dynamics—two poles of a larger pattern.
Have there been cases where clergy perpetrators have come forward and confessed? As in: “Yes, I did this. I need help. I accept the consequences. I want to repent, reform, restore, and make amends.” Are there examples of perpetrators living by their stated moral code and seeking true forgiveness?
Lentz: There have been a few rare cases where clergy abusers confessed publicly or privately. Some have written letters, others have made statements in court or to investigators. But genuine contrition, including willingness to accept prison time, make restitution, and seek treatment, is exceedingly rare.
Most cases involve either denial, minimization, or legal evasion. Unfortunately, moral failure is often compounded by institutional protectionism and legal maneuvering. Still, I believe stories of repentance do exist—they are not the norm. What about those abusing clergy who are preconditioned to abuse?
Jacobsen: That aligns with patterns we’ve seen in other forms of crime. Let me offer an analogy. Some people commit impulse-driven crimes, such as kleptomania or arson. They steal or burn things compulsively—it’s part of a psychological compulsion they cannot easily resist. In such cases, the individuals often admit to their behaviour and seek help, especially when the crimes are nonviolent.
On the opposite end, there have been serial killers who, after being caught—or even voluntarily—have said things like, “Use my brain for research.” They understand they are a danger and want to contribute something afterward. They might say, “I couldn’t stop myself. Please study me.” That’s a darker but more revealing example of self-awareness in pathology.
In both examples, there’s at least some recognition of harm and a desire—however delayed—to prevent future damage. In the context of clergy abuse, even a small number of authentic confessions could potentially lead to new models of accountability and healing if they were part of a public, restorative process.
They find that, in some cases, individuals who committed violent crimes had tumours so large that they were pressing against the frontal cortex. So, the parts of the brain responsible for impulse control, judgment, and emotional regulation were compromised.
The emotional dysregulation can be profound. In at least some of those cases, postmortem examinations showed clear physical causes—tumours disrupting neural networks. The structure of the brain had been altered, which likely contributed to the individual’s behavioural issues. And some of those individuals, before dying, even requested, “Please examine my brain after death—I can’t stop myself, and I want you to understand why.”
That fits with the foundations of early psychological and neurological studies. One of the classic cases is Phineas Gage, the 19th-century railroad worker who survived an iron rod piercing through his skull. It destroyed much of his frontal lobe, and afterward, his personality changed dramatically. He went from being responsible and mild-mannered to impulsive and irritable. Those close to him described him as a completely different person.
Gage’s case was one of the earliest pieces of evidence that personality, self-control, and ethical behaviour are rooted in the brain’s physical structure—particularly the frontal lobes. This links neuroscience and psychology with the development of moral behaviour. Some people, due to trauma or brain abnormalities, may be neurologically predisposed to violence or antisocial behaviour.
But we have to be careful. That kind of explanation is meant to illuminate, not excuse. It helps us understand certain behaviours, but it should not diminish the fact that crimes have victims—and every crime has a perpetrator. There is still moral and legal responsibility.
That is a critical distinction. And it’s worth noting that clergy, like members of the military, operate under a kind of dual legal structure. They are subject to both internal ecclesiastical processes and civilian law. In this way, they are not above the law but instead embedded in institutional systems that often shield them from full accountability.
Lentz: That makes sense. Your insights into brain science help frame this more precisely. Without knowing those details, I’ve often felt conflicted—because while we should never excuse criminal acts, I don’t believe we should blame the Church for creating abusers or pedophiles.
The Church doesn’t create them, but it may attract or fail to filter out individuals who are already predisposed due to psychological, neurological, or even traumatic histories. The Church often promotes a message of love, acceptance, and forgiveness, which, while good, can also be exploited.
Jacobsen: The responsibility lies in creating strict, transparent protocols that screen for risk, set clear boundaries, and respond swiftly when abuse is suspected. So, while we cannot blame the Church for the existence of abusers, we can hold it accountable for institutional cover-up, failure to act, and patterns of enabling.
Lentz: Even if we did everything right, some people would still come into the Church and do terrible things. But we must be held accountable for what we can control—oversight, response, transparency, and justice.
Jacobsen: Critics will respond quite rightly that the institution bears responsibility, especially when denominational structures contribute to abuse concealment. For example, the Roman Catholic Church is organized hierarchically—pyramidal and vertical—and in many documented cases, cover-up orders were issued from the highest levels, including the Vatican.
The Catholic Church is a clear case of top-down accountability. That’s different from the Eastern Orthodox Church, which also has a vertical structure but allows for more regional autonomy. And it’s different again from most Protestant denominations, which often have decentralized, more lateral networks.
So institutional structure plays a critical role—not just in how abuse happens, but in how it’s managed—or mismanaged—the Presbyterian or Congregational traditions, for example. My Dutch grandfather could have been ordained if he had chosen to do so when he came to Canada. He was a devout man.
That’s why there are so many variables at play. This is a sensitive and emotionally charged issue. Any topic with such emotional weight demands a multivariable approach. Many conversations are happening simultaneously, involving multiple parties—survivors, congregants, clergy, critics, and institutional defenders.
Lentz: Some people will say, “The Church is the story of my life.” I’ve heard that personally. I get that. I would never disabuse a survivor of their feelings or dismiss the violence they experienced at the hands of someone who was supposed to be a trusted priest or pastor.
The way you’re framing it is helpful—these are complex, overlapping layers of experience and responsibility. Abuse and cover-up intersect with dynamics found throughout our culture: in schools, businesses, the film industry, religious life, athletics—all of them.
Jacobsen: Yes—and what would be interesting is asking: What is particular about the Church, or church culture, that allows this to happen in such specific ways? The vertical hierarchy is undoubtedly part of it.
Lentz: Yes. I also believe that the status and spiritual authority granted to pastors and priests play a critical role. That reverence can sometimes shield misconduct. Add to that a culture of naïveté, paired with values like acceptance, forgiveness, and unconditional love, and it can become a toxic mix—especially without clear systems of accountability. Historically, we’ve had no consistent accountability process in the Church until the last 50 years—and arguably not until the last 25 years has there been any substantial institutional shift. That’s a long time—25 years out of centuries.
Jacobsen: That said, are pioneering denominations that are helping drive institutional reform? On the secular side, there also needs to be a different tone and a more nuanced analysis. The way some critiques have landed over the past 15 years hasn’t always been productive.
Lentz: Agreed.
Jacobsen: The sharpest secular critiques—many of which are online—are often disconnected from institutional reality. There’s a kind of rhetorical recoil that isn’t landing with clergy or even many congregants. And that weakens the reform effort.
Lenz: That’s an interesting point.
Lentz: Scott, you’ve probably already done this, but I do think denominations like the Presbyterian Church (USA) and the United Church of Christ (UCC) have at least verbally and procedurally taken this seriously. It’s in the Book of Order, it’s in process manuals, and it’s now a standard requirement to have sexual misconduct policies at every level of the Church.
I know this is true for the Presbyterians. I suspect it’s also true for the UCC, Methodists, and likely the Episcopalians. It would be worthwhile to research the specific reforms that different denominations have implemented over the last 30 years. [Ed. Under PC(USA) Book of Order G-3.0106, every council ‘shall adopt and implement a sexual misconduct policy and a child and youth protection policy.’]
Jacobsen: I do think there’s a tendency to bash the Church as if nothing has changed and there has been only cover-up and denial. That’s neither accurate nor fair. It certainly doesn’t advance the conversation.
The real question is: What is the goal? If it’s reform, then we need to focus on the institutions that have made progress and build from there. Constant condemnation doesn’t create a path forward. What does continuous criticism achieve if it’s not fair? What is the practical politics of your aim?
If the aim is justice and reform, then we need to be precise. We know there are clear cases where abuse and cover-up were institutionally embedded. But treating all churches and all denominations as identical is not helpful. That flattens the nuance and erases differences in structure, governance, and response.
A more constructive path respects the freedom of religion and speech enjoyed by both clergy and laity, domestically and internationally. If you’re going to critique the Church, make the case targeted. If you want to help, target your approach to engage that particular community. Say clearly: “Here is the reality as we currently know it, based on the evidence—and we will not speculate beyond the facts.”
Once that’s done, we can use that foundation as the basis for reform. Over time, more data and expert insights will be gathered. This enables the development of a reliable database for comparing how different denominations have handled abuse allegations. Of course, errors will occur in early efforts—but that’s part of building a transparent record.
For example, when you look at reported abuse rates across denominations—sometimes ranging from 4% to 14%—that’s a wide margin. It might be beyond typical statistical error, which raises the question: What’s contributing to 14% versus 4%? Why the difference?
Ideally, we want the number to be zero. So, how do we reduce that 14% to 5%, then to zero? That is a reform roadmap. But here’s the thing—we’re often not asking broader cultural questions about how to get to zero across society, not just in the Church.
It’s unfair to assume that only one denomination—the Roman Catholic Church—is responsible. Yes, we can always identify specific hierarchical structures that exacerbated the issue. But it’s not exclusive to Catholicism.
Lentz: One more thing: this should have been said earlier. There’s a tendency among Protestants, especially in the Presbyterian tradition—which I know well—to treat this as a “Catholic problem.” And that’s a problem in itself.
That mindset is a form of denial. When I write or speak about this issue, I always make a point to say: This is not just a Roman Catholic problem. Sure, their hierarchy may exacerbate specific dynamics. Still, the issue of sexual abuse by clergy is present across all faith traditions.
Do you find instances of sexual abuse in Jewish communities?
Jacobsen: Yes, though it can be challenging to get a clear picture because some of the reports are anecdotal or poorly substantiated. Still, from what I’m told by people I trust, the issue does exist. It tends to be more prevalent in closed or insular communities, such as certain ultra-Orthodox sects. That makes sense—the more enclosed the community, the more opportunity there is for abuse to remain hidden. A rural Presbyterian church can be just as closed-off in its way—serving a town of 1,500, where everyone knows each other and goes to the same Church for spiritual sustenance.
It’s the spiritual authority of the leader, the structure, and the theological grounding in sacred texts that create the possibility. Often, these structures are patriarchal, and that adds another layer. So, no—it’s not that abuse is inevitable. However, the structural conditions can increase the likelihood and certainly complicate accountability. This is not an anomaly-based phenomenon; rather, it is a pattern observed across various faith traditions, denominations, and cultures.
Lentz: Listen, I’ve got to run, but what a privilege to talk to you, Scott.
Jacobsen: Likewise—thank you.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/05
Javier Palomarez, CEO of the United States Hispanic Business Council, discusses how DHL’s 2024 pause on sub-$800 de minimis shipments—combined with heightened U.S.–China trade tensions—has deeply impacted Hispanic-owned small businesses. These enterprises rely on affordable imports and grapple with rising costs, regulatory burdens, and uncertain supply chains. While entrepreneurs remain adaptable, the cumulative challenges of taxation, workforce shortages, and logistics delays threaten business continuity. Palomarez urges policymakers to offer tax relief, reduce regulatory pressure, and support nearshoring strategies to sustain America’s fastest-growing business sector—Hispanic-owned firms contributing over $850 billion to the economy.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So today we’re with Javier Palomarez, the Founder and CEO of the United States Hispanic Business Council (USHBC). He is a leading national advocate for Hispanic-owned small businesses, with over thirty years of experience in multicultural marketing and sales, including work with several Fortune 100 companies. Palomarez is a recognized voice on issues of immigration, the economy, and minority representation. He frequently appears on national television for his insights on public policy, the challenges facing small businesses, and the influence of Hispanic voters in key swing states. Based in Flower Mound, Texas, he continues to advocate for legislative and economic initiatives supporting Hispanic entrepreneurs nationwide. So, how did—and how does—DHL’s pause on shipments affect cross-border e-commerce volumes into the U.S.?
Javier Palomarez: If we take a step back, the de minimis provision under Section 321 of the U.S. Tariff Act allows shipments valued at $800 or less to enter the United States without duties, taxes, or formal customs procedures. This facilitates cross-border e-commerce, especially for small packages. In recent years, de minimis shipments have surged, accounting for a significant share, over 90%, of all informal entries, with a large portion originating from China. This provision has played a vital role in helping small businesses import goods at lower costs and with fewer regulatory barriers. However, amid rising concerns about evasion of duties, product safety, and the trade imbalance with China, scrutiny of de minimis has increased. When DHL Express paused its de minimis shipments under $800 into the U.S. in early 2024, it disrupted the logistics pipeline for many small businesses that rely on affordable, fast international shipping. This action came in response to regulatory pressure and ongoing U.S.–China trade tensions, including additional Section 301 tariffs imposed on certain Chinese imports. The result? Small businesses, many of which are owned by Hispanic entrepreneurs, have found themselves unable to source products from overseas, particularly from Chinese suppliers, affordably. The burden of complying with new customs regulations or paying duties often erases their profit margin. DHL has had to adapt by shifting its logistics strategy, and in some areas, has reportedly scaled back operations, resulting in job losses and facility closures, including in California, though exact numbers vary by source. The broader ripple effect has been significant for the small business community, which heavily depends on reliable and economical global shipping.
Jacobsen: So, does this directly result from changing the de minimis policy in the context of the broader U.S.–China trade relationship?
Palomarez: Yes. While the U.S. must take a firm and fair approach in trade negotiations with China, our most significant source of de minimis imports, unintended consequences exist. One is the disproportionate impact on millions of small businesses, including Hispanic-owned enterprises, that are suddenly dealing with increased costs and regulatory complexity.
Jacobsen: What are you hearing from Hispanic-owned small businesses about their challenges?
Palomarez: The challenges vary depending on region, industry, and generational status. Some Hispanic entrepreneurs are first-generation immigrants with strong ties to family-run operations or specific trades. Others are multi-generational business owners who have scaled up within construction, logistics, retail, and food services sectors. For example, someone from a family of farmers may continue in agriculture, just as someone with experience in trade may move into import/export or e-commerce. These businesses often lack the financial cushion or legal resources to navigate abrupt changes in trade policy. That makes them especially vulnerable to regulatory shifts, like those affecting de minimis. At the same time, many Hispanic business owners are resilient and innovative, often leveraging bilingual and bicultural capabilities to reach underserved markets. But they need predictable rules, access to capital, and fair trade frameworks to thrive.
Jacobsen: And what is the average character of those businesses? Can you specify what types of challenges—whether in product, services, or otherwise—are impacted by these DHL-related issues?
Palomarez: Yes. Here is a little context on the Hispanic business community in the United States. At the United States Hispanic Business Council, we’re proud to advocate for the 4.5 million Hispanic-owned firms in this country that collectively contribute over $850 billion to the American economy. It is also the fastest-growing segment of the American small business community. For every one venture started by a non-Hispanic, Hispanics are beginning three. So we’re launching businesses at a rate of three to one compared to the general market. That’s important in the U.S., Scott, because when you look at it, small businesses are responsible for creating nearly 70% of net new jobs. We’re the beating heart of the American economy. When considering the challenges facing all American small businesses, and certainly Hispanic-owned ones, eliminating de minimis has added yet another obstacle.
The change to de minimis and ongoing supply chain disruptions will overburden already struggling ports on both coasts. That will send ripples throughout the business community. Local restaurants—mom-and-pop-owned establishments—depend on imported ingredients for their menus. Local mechanics rely on imported parts. Local bodegas rely on imported goods. And the list goes on. Unlike large corporations like Walmart or Costco, the average small business has no resources to pre-purchase inventory. We do not have the negotiating power big firms have to bring prices down. We are stuck with what we can get—if we can get any inventory at all, Scott. We do not have the resources. And when we look domestically, we cannot find producers for many of the parts, ingredients, and goods I mentioned. So we are stuck. It is a scary situation for the American small business community. In my community, specifically—the Hispanic-owned small business community—the vast majority of our members voted for President Trump. So, as you can imagine, there is some trepidation. There is a bit of questioning—maybe even buyer’s remorse. And we are trying to figure out how we can adapt. How do we continue to maintain our businesses, let alone grow them? It is a difficult time. De minimis has not helped. Corporations have flexibility in some ways but also rigidity in others. They have flexibility because they generate a lot of capital to test new ventures at scale. I remember Jeff Bezos recently talking about how, with this horizontal optimization layer—AI—they can apply it across more than a thousand applications at once in development. However, they are also large entities, and profound structural shifts are difficult for them. If you build a massive factory, you are locked into that investment. On the other hand, small businesses may not generate the same amount of capital, but they are not as deeply entrenched, so they have some flexibility.
Jacobsen: Is there—or is there not—some benefit? Is there a greater possibility of maneuvering through some of these customer changes for small businesses that are encountering more challenges?
Palomarez: Adaptability and creativity—the coin of the realm for the American small business community. To be an entrepreneur, in and of itself, illustrates that you’re willing to take a chance. You’re eager to be creative. You’re keen to do whatever it takes to get it done. Otherwise, you wouldn’t be an entrepreneur. So we will manage that. We will handle it. I’m sure we will.
However, the real issue is the accumulation of challenges. If it’s not a regulatory challenge, it’s taxation. If it’s not taxation, it’s policy and legislation. If it’s not that, it’s supply chain issues. If it’s not that, we’re unable to fully staff our companies because of workforce shortages in areas like construction, manufacturing, agriculture, hospitality, and even technology. So it’s the cumulative effect that is making it difficult for the American small business community. Look, all we want—all any business in America wants, and indeed the small business community—is to know and believe that there’s an administration that understands our challenges and is willing to offer some relief wherever and however they can. We want a stable environment to plan, invest, and grow our businesses. And we don’t have that right now. Like every American, we try to do our part and patiently await the outcome. But it is a difficult time. Again, many small businesses don’t have the resources to wait six months or a year for things to stabilize. Many of us will be out of business if this continues.
Jacobsen: What about the impacts on delivery time and processing time? That’s another issue.
Palomarez: Yes, I should throw in this one. The average customer may not necessarily understand small business owners’ challenges.
Jacobsen: What about customer satisfaction?
Palomarez: Yes, one of the hallmarks of the American small business community is our ability to offer absolute customer satisfaction. We know our clients. We’re in the neighbourhood. We’re local retailers. We shop at the same stores. We gas up our cars at the same stations. We go to the same churches. We belong to the same golf clubs, etc. So we’re in those communities, and a lot of that personalization- the customized customer relationships is put at risk when the retailer or business owner has no control over whether they will get a product, much less on time. When you’ve built your reputation and your business on customer satisfaction—on that local touch and feel people have come to rely on—it puts a significant part of your business strategy at risk. We’re seeing that right now, where we can’t even tell our clients with certainty, “Yes, this item will be here in two weeks.”
We’re hoping it’ll be here in two weeks, but we know, in the back of our minds, it’s probably not going to be two weeks, and it may not arrive at all. So you’re risking your entire business’s reputation in an environment like this. What’s tricky is that it’s entirely beyond our control. That’s the most disheartening part of all this. It’s not our fault.
Jacobsen: So, local and nearshore supply chains—how are small businesses acutely affected in those markets? Are they still relying heavily on shipping?
Palomarez: Yes. We’re delighted to hear about nearshoring and the prospect of bringing manufacturing, if not home, then at least closer to home. The reality is, we’ve grown dependent on China. Everybody in our small business community that we poll is acutely aware of our dependence on China. And it’s a dependency built up over decades. This didn’t happen overnight. While we agree with President Trump and this administration that we need to wean ourselves off of China, it would be great to create those manufacturing jobs, facilities, and business opportunities here in the United States; it’s not as easy as all that. So while we support the rationale, we support the administration’s efforts to nearshore or bring manufacturing back to the United States, we live in the sure knowledge that there’s a huge gap between policy—or a campaign promise—and the reality of getting those plants up and running and producing the goods and products we need.
There’s a time lapse, and it’s in that time lapse that we could either be severely damaged or go out of business entirely. So we’re looking for an administration that understands that—and is willing to help us during that interim period to keep our businesses alive, well, and growing. That remains to be seen, but we’re hopeful. When we poll our membership, the sentiment is still that Donald Trump is enough of a businessman to recognize this, and they’re hoping there will be some relief in terms of exclusions, or tax incentives, or other support to help the small business community weather the storm between the decision-making phase and the actual implementation of domestic or nearshore manufacturing.
Jacobsen: What moves by the current administration—for those who voted for it—would relieve some of their buyer’s remorse, to use the phrase you mentioned earlier?
Palomarez: That’s a big question. We did two polls—one, maybe two months before the election, and one, maybe two weeks before the election. In both cases, we surveyed 2,527 members. And in both instances, some 86% of our membership said they identified with Kamala Harris. They identified with her on a personal level—as the child of immigrant parents, a child raised in a single-parent household, a young person who had to struggle to get where she is, a minority, and a woman. So about 86% of our membership identified with her. They did not identify with Donald Trump. They weren’t the children of billionaires.
They didn’t inherit the wealth that Donald Trump inherited. So while they identified with Kamala Harris, they still said they would vote for Donald Trump because they believed that Trump was enough of a businessperson that he would help with the economic challenges the country was facing, and ultimately, that would help their small businesses, if that makes sense to you. So with that in mind, it runs the gamut. There are so many areas where we need help. The last person to enact any legislation that helped the American small business community in terms of taxes and taxation was, in fact, Donald Trump.
It was controversial, but the small business community benefited from the tax legislation Trump passed during his first term. And if you think about it, Scott, it hadn’t been since Ronald Reagan, since back in the eighties, that American small businesses received any relief on their taxes. When you’re running a business and 47% of your income goes directly to Uncle Sam before you even see a penny, you begin to appreciate a guy who sees it from your perspective. Controversial or not, you start to believe in him if he helps you with that particular issue. And so, that’s the Donald Trump that this community voted for.
In response to your question, are there other areas in which Donald Trump or this administration could help the American small business community? Unequivocally, yes. Taxation is one. Lessening regulation is another. The regulatory challenges the average business faces in America, never mind small companies, are insurmountable. Unlike large companies, we don’t have a division of tax experts. We don’t have an army of lobbyists. We don’t have a department of lawyers. It’s just us. We have to manage it. We have to handle it all. So you can imagine how overwhelming the regulatory structure is in this country. An administration that helps us with regulations? Fantastic.
So yes, there are several areas where this administration could still become the saviour of the American small business community. Energy costs are another example. Again, that’s entirely out of our control. We’re running the same business we were three years ago, but it’s costing us 42% more—simply because insurance has gone up, energy costs have gone up, taxes have gone up, etc. It’s hard to keep your business, much less grow it, in an environment like that. So there are many areas where this administration could help the American small business community, and we live in that hope. We’re hopeful that this administration will be the one.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Javier, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate your expertise.
Palomarez: Have a good one. Thanks so much.
Jacobsen: Hey. You take care.
Palomarez: Bye-bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/04
Bede Ramcharan is the founder, president, and CEO of Indetatech, a certified Service-Disabled Veteran-Owned Small Business (SDVOSB) founded in February 2020. A retired U.S. Army veteran, he holds a master’s degree in healthcare administration from the Army-Baylor University Graduate Program. Under his leadership, Indetatech delivers supply chain, logistics, staffing, and facility management solutions across six U.S. states and three international markets. Honoured as the 2015 Minority Veteran Entrepreneur of the Year by NaVOBA, Ramcharan also serves on advisory boards for NaVOBA and the U.S. Global Leadership Coalition, advocating for veteran entrepreneurship and responsible global commerce.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here with Bede Ramcharan, founder, president, and CEO of Indetatech, a certified Service-Disabled Veteran-Owned Small Business (SDVOSB) established in February 2020. A retired U.S. Army veteran, he holds a master’s degree in healthcare administration from the Army-Baylor University Graduate Program in Health and Business Administration. Ramcharan leads Indetatech in delivering global supply chain, logistics, staffing, and facility management solutions. The company operates in more than six U.S. states and exports to three international markets.
He was honoured as the 2015 Minority Veteran Entrepreneur of the Year by the National Veteran-Owned Business Association (NaVOBA). Ramcharan also serves on advisory boards, including NaVOBA and the U.S. Global Leadership Coalition, where he contributes to both veteran empowerment and business advocacy. Thank you for joining me today. I appreciate you taking the time. Are the new U.S. customs rules continuing to affect cross-border commerce?
Bede Ramcharan: Well, the first thing is—we don’t know. There’s much inconsistency. What’s enacted today could change tomorrow morning. The tariff rates are frequently revised, and enforcement patterns vary, which creates unpredictability.
This unpredictability has led to instability in supply chains. Some businesses are stockpiling inventory, while others are delaying purchases. In anticipation of future costs, suppliers may raise prices. All this leads to confusion for the end consumer.
If tariffs were consistent and predictable, we could develop strategies around them. However, current policy volatility makes it challenging to plan. It sometimes feels like we’re responding to whims. Today’s tariff rate might be gone tomorrow—or even increased. That uncertainty ripples across the economy.
Jacobsen: What is the de minimis threshold, and why is it significant?
Ramcharan: The de minimis threshold is the maximum declared value of goods that can be imported into the United States without incurring duties or formal entry procedures. Currently, that threshold is $800 under Section 321 of the U.S. Tariff Act.
This is significant because it enables faster, duty-free shipping for low-value items—primarily e-commerce orders from platforms like Amazon, Shein, or Temu. It benefits consumers and small businesses by lowering the cost and complexity of imports.
However, there’s increasing scrutiny of this policy. Lawmakers and trade advocates have expressed concerns that foreign companies—especially those shipping from China—are exploiting this threshold to avoid tariffs and undercut domestic competitors. There have been proposals to lower the threshold or increase customs inspections, which could slow delivery times and raise costs.
If the $800 limit is lowered or stricter enforcement is applied, we could see delays at customs. U.S. Customs and Border Protection would need more staffing and resources to inspect a higher volume of parcels. This could lead consumers to rethink spontaneous online purchases—especially if delivery timelines stretch from two days to two or three weeks.
I’ve experienced that already when ordering items. You place the order, and then the delivery date changes. What was originally a one-week delivery becomes two weeks, then three. At that point, you’re forced to decide if it is still worth it. That’s where the most significant impact is going to be—on the individual consumer.
Large companies that import in bulk, well above the $800 de minimis threshold, are bringing in entire containers or even half a ship’s worth of goods. They’re operating at a different scale. However, for the individual ordering online and receiving shipments directly, that threshold matters significantly. The most significant impact, in that case, is delayed delivery time.
Jacobsen: What about the broader implications for international shipping logistics? That is, admittedly, a broad question—but more specifically, could you speak to congestion at the ports, delays in the supply chain, and the cumulative effects on processing times?
Ramcharan: Yes. We’ve already experienced the effects of supply chain disruptions during the COVID-19 pandemic, but these disruptions primarily stemmed from a lack of manufacturing and shortages of goods. This time, the issue is different. The products are available, but the bottleneck is now at the ports due to increased scrutiny and enforcement.
Everything has to be checked—inspected for proper tariff classification and valuation—and taxed accordingly. That additional layer of customs enforcement is going to significantly slow things down. I recently read an article stating that the first ships impacted by the new tariffs are expected to reach U.S. ports by either the end of this week or early next week.
Jacobsen: Understood. That would mark the first physical test of these new rules.
Ramcharan: Exactly. We will assess the volume of those incoming vessels and determine how long the processing will take. There’s much speculation—armchair quarterbacking, if you will—about how this will play out. But the truth is, no one knows yet. We have not dealt with something of this scope before—not quite like this.
Even I’m cautious. You could predict something in the morning, and it might already be outdated by the afternoon. We’ll have to wait and see how significant the backlog and bottlenecks become at the ports.
On top of that, there were reports of a possible labour strike at one of the ports, which would further complicate the situation. When you start adding all these variables together—tariff enforcement, port congestion, labour issues—it creates a complex scenario. It’s a big black hole in terms of predictability right now.
The biggest concern on everyone’s mind is pricing. Am I going to pay more for this item? Interestingly, it was Walmart that stated they would not pass the increased tariff costs on to consumers. That’s significant, but whether others follow suit remains to be seen.
Some companies have stated that they will not pass on the tariff cost. Others have said they’ll display both prices—the original and the tariff-adjusted price—side by side. That way, consumers can see that it’s not the company arbitrarily raising the cost; rather, it’s the tariff that’s driving the increase.
And I keep coming back to pricing because that is what will drive consumer behaviour. People will either choose not to buy or look for an alternative source. The intended effect of tariffs, of course, is to encourage consumers to buy more American-made products. But at the end of the day, there are very few products that are genuinely independent of the global economy.
Take automobiles and clothing—many of those may be assembled or finished in the United States, but the components or even just the packaging could be sourced overseas. So, even if the product is technically “Made in the USA,” disruptions can still occur if the packaging supply chain is affected.
In the MRO (Maintenance, Repair, and Operations) world, where I operate within logistics, we’ve pre-positioned several months’ worth of inventory. That buffer means we’re unlikely to see immediate price increases. The inventory already present on U.S. soil will be used first.
However, once those inventories begin to run low, we can expect to see two consequences: price increases and delays in delivery. Our customers care about two key indicators—price and lead time. Those two metrics determine how we market our goods and how we move them through the supply chain.
Jacobsen: From what I gather, this means increased processing times and higher prices for consumers. Is that generally correct?
Ramcharan: Yes. Everyone will raise prices.
Let’s say I’m Vendor A selling an item for $1, and tariffs now force my competitor to sell the same item for $2. I may raise my price to $1.50, even though I could still sell at $1. Why? Because the market will bear it. That’s the incentive structure. And how many companies are going to pass on the opportunity to raise prices?
Prices are going to rise no matter what. Historically, we’ve seen that once prices rise, they rarely return to their previous levels—even when conditions stabilize. We adjust to a new price norm. Unless there’s an oversupply and a need to clear out inventory, there’s little pressure to reduce prices. As a market, we’re conditioned to accept those higher price points.
The one major exception people track going up and down is gasoline. We expect fluctuation there, and so we’re psychologically prepared for it. But for most goods—groceries, cars, housing—prices go up and tend to stay there.
There was a time when we had a housing glut, and prices dropped. But now? Materials are the next pressure point. We import much lumber from Canada. That affects housing prices. Once prices rise due to increased raw material costs, they rarely return to their previous levels by much. The higher pricing becomes the new normal for as long as the market can sustain it.
So, yes—conversions are happening in pricing. You also have vendors behaving, in a strange way, almost anti-competitively—raising prices not purely out of necessity but because the market conditions allow for it. The entire system is out of alignment. It is not easy to phrase precisely, but that’s the reality.
As I mentioned earlier, COVID-19 provided us with a test run on large-scale supply chain disruptions. For about a year after COVID, when global trade resumed and supply chains started flowing again, prices were still elevated. Everyone said, “Well, it’s because of the earlier disruptions.” But even after conditions stabilized, prices didn’t return to pre-COVID levels.
Jacobsen: Would it be fair to say that the world has never been more globalized than it is today?
Ramcharan: Absolutely. As a country, the United States has experienced periods of isolationism in the past. But today is different—our economy is deeply enmeshed in the global system.
Consumers can now pick up a smartphone, place an order, and never even think about where the item is coming from. In the past, you had to look at catalogues or consider supply sources. Now, online commerce is so seamless that the global nature of our purchases is invisible—until disruption hits.
People are starting to understand that globalization is not just about goods and services. It’s also about pharmaceuticals, which many did not realize are heavily imported. Or food—we often talk about supporting local farmers, and they do tremendous work, but many Americans are unaware of how much of our daily food intake is imported. It may arrive fresh, but it was not grown or produced here.
From an American perspective, we are becoming increasingly aware of the interconnectedness of everything. Most people had no idea—unless they were already working in logistics or procurement—that this was the case.
Those of us who made it through COVID-19 in terms of business continuity became acutely aware—highly sensitized—of the origin of every product. You might want to buy something locally, but if it’s not made here, you’re dependent on a global supply chain to get it. And now, we have to pay close attention to those origins.
You must assess political stability in your sourcing regions. If there is unrest or conflict, it could disrupt production and your access to the goods. You have to monitor environmental risks, too—like natural disasters. I recall a major typhoon that occurred years ago in Asia—perhaps in 2008—where one of the affected areas was a key producer of Intel chips. That single event had a cascading effect on electronics manufacturing worldwide.
And because of that typhoon, shipping was shut down for weeks. Ports were closed, and semiconductor chips were not shipped. As a result, computer and laptop prices spiked, and many people could not understand why. The reason was a global chip shortage caused by a single weather event on the other side of the world.
We are probably living in the most interconnected, globalized era humanity has ever experienced—and I’m speaking globally now. And it’s only going to intensify. It’s not just about products anymore; it’s also about people.
In the U.S., if we erode or disrupt the workforce involved in production, logistics, and distribution—the people who touch these goods—we are going to experience disruptions at that level, too. I do not think many people fully appreciated that before. It is not just the product that matters; it is the people throughout the supply chain. If you disrupt either side—goods or labour—you disrupt the entire system.
Jacobsen: These sessions always feel like the trial version of a more extended conversation—it keeps things sharp. With a four-hour talk, you would need breaks for coffee and the restroom, but in these tighter formats, you stay more focused.
I’ve spoken to many business leaders and economists. One theme that consistently emerges, regardless of political or geographic affiliation, is that stability is beneficial for business. Consumers know it. Vendors know it. So, thinking long-term—especially with developments involving companies like DHL and changes in customs regulations—if things eventually settle into a more “normalized” state, how long does it typically take for global trade and cross-border e-commerce to regularize again?
Ramcharan: That’s a tricky question. We can reach a new normal—but we cannot go back to the old one. Things will never be precisely the way they were before COVID. That was a pivotal moment—a stake in the ground. Since then, we’ve adjusted. Now, we are adapting again to what I would call a “new new normal.”
The more stability we have—particularly at the policy level—the faster we can return to a more predictable supply chain. If global governments were able to engage consistently and pragmatically, that would go a long way. Ultimately, it is those governments that set trade policy and negotiate international agreements.
Right now, however, that stability is lacking.
How long will it take to resolve this? Honestly, I do not know—and I am trying to leave politics out of this—but it depends on how long it takes to establish that stability.
Money talks.
Two things will happen. First, when large corporations—whose performance is measured by earnings per share and stock price—begin to take serious financial hits, they will feel the pressure. Even though many of these companies are already highly profitable, if profits dip further, they will have the incentive to act. They can and will apply pressure at the proper governmental levels to say, ‘We need a solution.‘
Consumers have a breaking point as well. They can do one of two things: they can say, “We’re not going to buy from you anymore.” We saw this play out in the Target-Costco scenario. Target lost ground while Costco gained, despite both sourcing many of their products from the same suppliers.
Consumers today are showing a willingness to make sacrifices—even in terms of pricing—to make their voices heard. That is a significant shift. Historically, people voted with their wallets—that was the phrase: “I vote with my pocketbook.”Now, we’re seeing a more values-based consumer behaviour, where pricing is not always the deciding factor.
This is a new paradigm in the economy. I was reading an article this morning that noted—for the first time in a long time—public confidence in labour unions has surged. In the last six to eight months, support for labour unions has nearly doubled that of big business.
People are paying attention to the human element. CEOs at large corporations may earn millions in salary and bonuses, while frontline workers at the other end of the production line are sometimes not even paid a living wage. That imbalance is becoming harder for consumers to ignore.
No, we are not going to eliminate that gap, but there’s a growing push to elevate the lower half of the labour force—to get people to a place where they can sustain themselves. This shift in sentiment toward organized labour influences consumer behaviour. It changes how and why people buy.
Today, you can offer a cheaper product, but that alone does not guarantee market share. Consumers expect more. They want ethical practices, transparency, and social responsibility. It is no longer just about price.
So again, this is all part of a broader transformation we are witnessing. We are studying, responding to, and adapting to it in real-time.
Jacobsen: Last question—how is your business doing, both domestically and internationally?
Ramcharan: Sure. Our international activity has slowed significantly, and this slowdown began during the COVID pandemic. We built some new relationships abroad, sourced products, and adapted, but the focus gradually shifted.
Now, we are concentrating more on what is right here in our backyard. While we still conduct business across the United States, I have prioritized customers who are within a three- to four-hour radius of our location.
That’s my current growth strategy—deepening relationships with existing customers. Before, the mindset was always about acquiring new business. However, during the COVID-19 pandemic, some of our clients remained loyal despite challenging circumstances, and that loyalty is now a priority for us.
So, instead of casting a wide net, we’ve pulled in slightly. We are focusing on servicing, supporting, and growing the base we already have—because I know what those customers need, and we’ve built trust.
We’ve already established our supply chains. I do not want to establish entirely new supply chains for new customers at this time. First, it’s not feasible in the current environment. Second, I do not want to take that risk only to fall short of expectations and have a customer say, “I thought you were better than that.”
So, yes, it is a gamble, but I’ve chosen to pull in and consolidate until things stabilize, and we can get a clearer picture of what’s happening in the market.
Jacobsen: Bede, thank you so much for your time today.
Ramcharan: Did I answer your questions? I want to ensure that I’ve covered everything.
Jacobsen: You did. Absolutely. I appreciate your expertise, and it was a pleasure to meet you.
Ramcharan: Thank you. Likewise, I’m looking forward to doing some reading this weekend—I plan to go back and review more of your work. You had some exciting titles. I read one or two, then scrolled through your résumé and saw several other articles online that caught my eye. I thought, “I’ve got to go back and read that one.” So yes, it’s my pleasure—and I’m glad to add you to my network.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Likewise.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/04
Chip Lupo is an experienced personal finance writer currently contributing to WalletHub. With a background in journalism from Elon University, he has worked across various sectors, including finance, sports, politics, and religion. Chip has expertise in SEO best practices, content creation, and editing, as well as proficiency in Microsoft and Adobe applications. His career spans over two decades, during which he has held roles as a compliance analyst, wire editor, and night city editor. Chip’s passion for media and communications drives his commitment to high-quality content. Lupo explains methodology behind ranking all 50 states, highlights standardized testing, graduation rates, and funding disparities, and unpacks why states like Wyoming and New Mexico rank higher despite limited resources.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Chip Lupo. All right. So, Brown v. Board of Education—even I, as a Canadian, know about this landmark U.S. Supreme Court decision. In 1954, the Court unanimously ruled that racial segregation in public schools was unconstitutional, overturning the “separate but equal” doctrine established in Plessy v. Ferguson (1896). While it was a pivotal moment in the civil rights movement, it faced considerable resistance at the time. Even today, some individuals and groups continue to debate aspects of desegregation policy, though the core principle is widely accepted.
In general, it is no longer seen as controversial to oppose the denial of school enrollment based on race. However, modern challenges persist in terms of equity—especially around how school districts vary in funding, educational quality, access to resources, and student outcomes, including standardized test scores.
So, what have you found in terms of how these factors play out across school districts in various U.S. states?
Chip Lupo: Scott, first, let us get into the methodology. What we did was compare all 50 states to assess which have the most significant levels of racial equality in education. This includes access, funding equity, and academic outcomes. One key thing to remember is that school funding in the U.S. often depends on local property taxes, which creates systemic disparities between districts—especially those with predominantly white populations versus predominantly Black or Hispanic populations.
We specifically examined the gaps between Black and white Americans in areas such as high school and college graduation rates, standardized test scores, and the percentage of adults with at least a bachelor’s degree. The metrics with the highest weight were test scores and educational attainment, especially at the postsecondary level. We ranked each state from 1 to 50.
The results were surprising. The top three states in terms of racial equality in education were Wyoming, New Mexico, and West Virginia. These are generally rural and lower-income states, which may suggest that economic parity in some of these areas contributes to a narrower racial gap—although this does not necessarily indicate overall high performance.
That is to say, while the systems in those states may not be exceptionally high-performing or well-funded, the levels of disparity between racial groups appear smaller than in many wealthier, more urbanized states.
Jacobsen: That is a stark difference. How would you characterize that 70-point range overall?
Lupo: It tells us that racial inequality in education is not only persistent but varies drastically from state to state. States like Wisconsin, Minnesota, Connecticut, and Nebraska have relatively high average educational outcomes overall—but when you disaggregate by race, the disparities are enormous. These states tend to have significant achievement gaps and lower postsecondary attainment rates for students of colour despite overall affluence or investment in education. So the issue is not just funding—but who has access to that funding and how equitably it is distributed.
Our data emphasizes that racial equality in education is not just about lifting all boats—it is also about closing gaps.
Jacobsen: So, if you are in a state with a large majority white population, that number is probably going to be skewed a bit. So, we adjust on a per capita basis.
Lupo: Exactly. Public high school graduation rates are given full weight. Standardized test scores also receive full weight because, at least in recent years, they have been central—though some colleges have moved away from requiring them. Still, standardized tests like the SAT and ACT have long been hot-button issues in conversations about racial equity, particularly due to concerns about cultural and socioeconomic bias embedded in the tests.
Jacobsen: Right. So, you gave full weight to standardized testing.
Lupo: Yes, exactly. However, you pointed out a key detail—the gap in total scores across states. We are talking about a top score of 88 down to a low of 12. That is a glaring gap. It strongly suggests that there is still significant work to be done nationwide to close racial disparities in education.
Jacobsen: I see. That covers methodology broadly. Let us zoom in. The most significant weighting you assigned was for adults without a bachelor’s degree—specifically, giving double weight to those with at least a bachelor’s degree. Why does that factor make up more than a third of the overall score?
Lupo: Right. That is a good observation. Yes, we gave double weight to the share of adults over age 25 with at least a bachelor’s degree. That is because, culturally and economically, earning a college degree is still considered a benchmark of educational success. That mindset largely stems from the generation preceding ours, and it remains strong today.
In many minority communities, which were historically denied access to higher education, a bachelor’s degree represents not just academic success but also social mobility and pride. It is seen as a milestone achievement. That is probably why we placed more weight on that metric than on high school graduation, which received only half the weight.
Jacobsen: Understood. Now, about SAT and ACT scores—some students take one, some take both, and others use them when transferring between universities. Why do those get included in racial equality metrics in education?
Lupo: Good question. Standardized tests, such as the SAT and ACT, are often regarded as “high-stakes” exams. Moreover, you are right—Pearson Education, for instance, classifies tests like the Wechsler Adult Intelligence Scale and the Stanford-Binet as “Class C” assessments—meaning they are high-stakes and require professional oversight to administer. Similarly, SATs and ACTs are high-stakes because they have real consequences: they can determine whether someone gains admission to a particular university or qualifies for scholarships.
In the North American context, where many universities still place heavy emphasis on these scores—despite increasing test-optional policies—they remain significant indicators of educational access and opportunity. That is why we included them with full weight in our racial equity assessment.
Jacobsen: One other thing to consider with the SATs is that some students take them to gauge where they stand. For example, a rising sophomore in high school might take the SAT early to get a sense of how they are doing relative to college admissions expectations. Based on the results, students can identify where they need improvement. It also gives them time to retake the test—especially if their initial score is below the average for their target schools. They can prepare further and try to improve.
Several key sources of research were mentioned, including the U.S. Census Bureau, the National Center for Education Statistics (NCES), ACT, and the College Board. Why were these chosen as the foundational sources for the data analysis?
Lupo: Great question. The College Board is the organization that administers the SAT and several other standardized exams, including AP exams and, indirectly, exams for graduate-level admissions. Although technically, LSATs, MCATs, and GMATs are managed by different bodies, the College Board has historically been involved in shaping educational assessment. So, including their data was essential.
ACT is a separate organization that administers the ACT, which most universities accept as an alternative to the SAT. Their dataset is vital for states and students who lean more heavily on the ACT.
The National Center for Education Statistics (NCES) is the primary federal entity responsible for collecting and analyzing education data in the United States. It aggregates statistics on a wide range of topics, including test scores and graduation rates.
And then, of course, for demographic information, especially data disaggregated by race, the U.S. Census Bureau is the most authoritative source. When you are comparing racial equality in education, you need that population-level data.
Jacobsen: High school graduation also received a substantial weighting in your analysis. While not as heavily weighted as the percentage of adults with a bachelor’s degree, why is high school graduation still considered such a pivotal metric?
Lupo: High school graduation rates are a fundamental benchmark because they often reflect how well school systems are functioning at a basic level. If students are not completing high school, that is a major red flag. It highlights areas where districts may be under-resourced or struggling—especially in inner cities where schools are often underfunded and face higher crime rates.
Failing public school systems is, unfortunately, a reality in several U.S. cities, and this is reflected in the low graduation rates. So, we assigned full weight to this metric to underscore how some districts, and indeed some states, are doing a significantly better job than others—either through better administration, better funding, or more equitable policies. We wanted our analysis to reflect that.
Jacobsen: And in terms of data—was this a relatively small dataset?
Lupo: Yes, it was pretty compact. For that particular metric—public high school graduation rates—we only used six key sources. So, it is not an enormous dataset, but it is incredibly telling.
Jacobsen: That brings us to one last point. In your final ranking, you mentioned there is a relatively flat distribution—what does that mean in this context?
Lupo: It means that in the middle range of the rankings, several states are clustered closely together. So, while the top and bottom states show dramatic differences—like that 70-point gap we discussed earlier—many states in the middle have similar scores, indicating moderate performance with room for improvement.
Jacobsen: So, there is a reasonable middle, but the extremes on either end make this a very flat distribution—almost like a low, broad mound. Any explanation for why it turned out this way? I mean, it does not necessarily have to look like that. It could have two peaks in the middle or be tightly clustered around the average. However, in this case, it is quite flat and diffuse.
Lupo: Right, and as we discussed earlier, there is that extensive range—between Wisconsin and Wyoming, for instance. However, like with most data distributions, the truth usually lies somewhere in the middle. There is a noticeable cluster of states scoring from the upper 40s to the low 60s. For example, Oregon came in at number four with a score of 66, and Nevada was at number 25—not too far behind. So that whole block sits pretty squarely in the middle.
Jacobsen: So, we can conclude there is a thick band of states with moderate levels of racial equality in education.
Lupo: Yes, exactly. If you disregard the outliers at both extremes, the national picture is probably average—maybe slightly above average—but still far from ideal. The wide disparity between the top and bottom states indicates that there is still meaningful work to be done. The middle group suggests that we are not at a crisis point, but we have not reached equity either.
Jacobsen: Well, my friend, that is all from me today. Thank you so much.
Lupo: No problem, Scott. Thanks so much. Have a great week—we will talk soon.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/03
Gregory Blatt, co-founder of H55 and a key figure behind the Solar Impulse legacy, leads one of the world’s foremost electric aviation companies. In this in-depth conversation, Blatt discusses H55’s inclusion in TIME’s Top 250 GreenTech Companies of 2025 and the broader implications for clean mobility. He highlights the Bristell B23 Energic’s low-emission, low-noise profile, emphasizing its benefits for flight schools and densely populated areas. Blatt outlines H55’s strategy for certification in Europe and the U.S., as well as its scalability through modular electric propulsion systems and partnerships with firms such as Piper, CAE, and RTX. He also addresses the economic and climate benefits of electrification, advocating for a pragmatic approach to the energy mix. With growing pilot demand and rapid innovation, H55 is helping redefine aviation for a more sustainable future.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we are here with Gregory Blatt, and we are going to explore a few questions. You have been included in TIME’s list of the World’s Top 250 GreenTech Companies of 2025. What does this recognition signify for the future of electric aviation?
Gregory Blatt: Well, there are a few critical aspects to this recognition by TIME magazine, and you have already pointed to one of them.
First, it is the recognition of a small Swiss company and the work we are doing in electric aviation. H55 is based in Sion, Switzerland, and we operate in a highly specialized sector. Only four Swiss companies made TIME’s Top 250 list, so being among them shows that, in our own focused and mission-driven way, we are gaining global recognition for the advancements we have achieved. That includes our legacy from the Solar Impulse project, and the work we are doing now—most notably, developing certified electric propulsion and battery management systems.
By next year, we will be the first company to bring a certified electric propulsion system to the general aviation market. That is a milestone not just for us but for the industry.
Second, TIME’s recognition reflects a broader understanding of what clean mobility can look like. Typically, when people think of mobility, they think of cars. However, clean mobility extends far beyond terrestrial transportation. H55 demonstrates that sustainable aviation is not only possible but already operational with the technology having been de-risked.
Notably, TIME is examining clean mobility as a comprehensive trend. They are not treating this as a fleeting innovation or an experimental idea like Apple’s Newton, which was ahead of its time but did not last. Instead, they see clean aviation as a viable and necessary technological shift. It is not a gadget—it’s a long-term solution offering economic, technological, and societal benefits.
Of course, we’re not the only ones in the space. Other companies are building electric aircraft—whether fixed-wing planes, VTOLs, or flying taxis. Some are working on charging infrastructure or subcomponents. H55 is focused on the electric propulsion systems that power these aircraft.
This recognition also serves as a signal that clean aviation is a serious and rapidly expanding industry. On our end, H55 has already hired around 120 engineers in Switzerland and Canada—many in roles that didn’t even exist five or seven years ago. That’s a powerful example of how clean tech is not just an environmental necessity but also an economic opportunity.
And maybe this is a broader point, but we need to stop framing environmental protection as a cost. It’s also a generator of jobs and innovation. In our case, it’s producing skilled engineering roles in entirely new domains.
That’s why I prefer to call it cleantech, not just green tech. The focus is on building scalable, efficient, zero-emission solutions—and they’re already here. Because when we think of it that way, we see it as an economic impetus—not just the cost of doing business. Sorry, that was a long answer to your question.
Jacobsen: Why is it important for H55 to be present in the United States right now, and how does the Across USA Tour support your mission? Where can people follow the tour and learn more?
Blatt: We’re bringing fully electric flight to general aviation and pilot training as we embark on the H55 Across USA tour. The tour began in April at the Sun ’n Fun Aerospace Expo in Florida and runs through early August, covering eight states. Powered by H55’s electric propulsion system (EPS), the Bristell B23 Energic airplane—is an all-electric 2-seater designed for pilot training, general aviation and regional transport.
H55 began its journey in Florida earlier this year as part of an 8-state U.S. tour showcasing the future of clean, quiet, and sustainable flight. Each stop is designed to highlight H55’s electric propulsion system—motor, inverter, battery modules, and energy and power management systems—while engaging key stakeholders across the aviation ecosystem.
The goal of the H55 Across USA tour is to accelerate the shift toward cleaner, quieter, more efficient, and more affordable aviation. We’re doing that by showcasing our certified electric propulsion systems and aircraft integration solutions designed for general aviation and regional transport. Along the way, we’re engaging with flight schools and aeroclubs, airports and fixed base operators (FBOs), maintenance, repair, and overhaul providers (MROs), aerospace universities, military academies, and aviation enthusiasts across the country.
As of our third tour stop at Signature Aviation in Scottsdale, Arizona, we passed a big milestone—over 100 U.S. landings, officially reaching 104 upon our return to Falcon Field that day.
We’ve just completed our fourth stop in Las Vegas, and next we’re heading to Palo Alto, California, before heading back east. Next, we visit Colorado Springs, Oshkosh for EAA AirVenture, the largest fly-in in North America, and then The Hamptons to end the tour. You can follow the full journey, meet the team, learn how to join us at our next stops, and trace our journey from the groundbreaking Solar Impulse project at https://across-usa.h55.ch.
Jacobsen: The Bristell B23 Energic is intriguing regarding electric pilot training. What are the technical advantages that make it viable for widespread adoption today?
Blatt: Okay, now you’re going to have me talking for three days! Let’s start with the obvious low-hanging fruit—societal, environmental, and noise-related advantages.
First, no pollution, no noise. That’s a big win for flight training schools located near densely populated areas. You know, places where neighbors often complain because aircraft are constantly flying circuits overhead, generating noise all day long. From a societal perspective, this makes a great deal of sense.
Then there’s the pollution factor—zero emissions from the aircraft. But those are the broader societal benefits.
Now, let’s talk about the economic advantages. An electric airplane has far fewer moving parts and is much less complex than its combustion-engine equivalent. That significantly reduces maintenance needs. You don’t have to change out an engine every 2,500 hours, which you would with a similarly sized combustion aircraft used in training.
You also avoid fuel costs—no Avgas is required. So, from an operational standpoint, electric flight is highly cost-effective compared to combustion.
From a pilot training perspective, there are additional technical benefits that the general public might not immediately think of. For example, in Arizona, flight schools typically consume between 1.6 and 2.4 gallons of fuel just during lineup time—while idling and waiting to take off. We don’t have that issue. In a conventional training session that uses about 16 gallons, only 14 are used for flying, and two go to waste during idle time. With the B23 Energic, all your energy goes directly into the flight. There’s no idle fuel burn.
There’s also the reduced noise issue, which flight instructors love. Less noise means less stress for students and a better learning environment. There’s no need to mix oil and fuel, and the aircraft handles high altitudes and temperatures without added complexity. It’s a much simpler, cleaner training experience for flight schools.
The feedback has been incredibly positive. Since starting our U.S. campaign, we’ve completed more than 110 landings. The reviews—and I say this objectively because the testimonials are public, and we’re not using AI to filter them—have been overwhelmingly favourable.
Pilots love it. They love the responsiveness, the quietness, and the sleek, modern look of the aircraft—it appeals to the next generation of pilots. Whether for economic, societal, or operational reasons, they consistently tell us it makes training easier and more enjoyable. For students already juggling a lot when learning to fly, the B23 Energic simplifies the process.
Jacobsen: How does H55 balance the demands of regulatory certification with the pace of technological innovation in electric propulsion?
Blatt: At H55, from the beginning, we made a clear commitment: we are developing certified electric propulsion systems. And we’ll be the only company to have a certified electric propulsion system—by the end of this year or the beginning of next year—in Europe. Then, about a year later, we expect certification in the United States.
You can look at certification in two ways, Scott. One way to view it is as a cost of doing business—it takes time, you have to prove everything, and it can feel bureaucratic. And to a certain extent, that’s understandable. After all, you’re introducing new technologies, and regulators need to ensure that they work, are safe, and are reliable. That’s their job.
But I look at it differently. I see certification as a source of innovation. It pushes us to refine and improve. Most of our patents—our strongest intellectual property— come out of the certification process. That’s where the know-how builds.
Even before certification, we had extensive operational experience. With Solar Impulse, we flew 50,000 kilometres across more than 40 countries. We completed the task safely, with no incidents. We brought the pilots home safely and returned the aircraft to excellent condition. That experience gave us a deep understanding of safety, which we’ve carried forward.
So, certification is not just a regulatory hurdle—it’s a necessary step toward broad adoption. It ensures safety and builds trust. We’re very comfortable with that. As I mentioned, EASA has confirmed that we will be the first company in Europe to have a certified electric propulsion system. We expect that to be finalized by early next year, and FAA certification will likely follow 12 to 18 months later.
Jacobsen: What feedback have you received from the Across USA Tour—from flight schools and military academies?
Blatt: It’s funny—military personnel are flying it as we speak. We were recently at Maxwell Air Force Base with the aircraft, and about 20 U.S. Air Force pilots flew it.
And the feedback, Scott—they liked it. They appreciated the responsiveness. It’s like driving an electric car: an immediate reaction with smooth control. They enjoyed the quietness, the ergonomics, and the way the airplane handles. It flies very well.
They also understood the economics immediately, which is crucial in aviation. Everything is measured in terms of cost of ownership and cost per flight hour. And when we present them with the numbers, we show them a business case that’s comparable—if not better—than combustion-engine training aircraft.
There is some infrastructure required, of course. But let’s be honest—it’s solvable. And in fact, it’s already being solved. We made a strategic decision to go with standard DC charging: no proprietary systems, no special cables—just standard, automotive-style chargers.
The FAA has already approved DC charging for airport ground operations, so that is not a regulatory roadblock. It’s more a matter of investment, and that investment is already happening. Chargers range in cost from about $15,000 to $100,000. So, it is not an excessive investment—especially when considering the operational savings.
At Henderson Executive Airport during our Nevada stopover, our host All in Aviation has already installed three or four chargers in their hangars, and they’re planning to install more.
Why? It’s quite simple. When people come to the hangar, it’s an excellent opportunity to charge their cars while they’re flying all day. So, the flight school started with that use case in mind. And beyond that, it just makes sense—most of their auxiliary vehicles, like little trucks, golf carts, and maintenance vehicles on the airport grounds, are already electric. Having chargers on-site supports that ecosystem.
So, in that sense, the charging infrastructure is straightforward. The one challenge some flight schools have encountered relates to where charging takes place. Because of battery thermal sensitivity—especially in hot environments like Las Vegas or Arizona—we see better performance by charging indoors rather than outdoors.
Jacobsen: H55 emphasizes scalability. What aircraft categories are you targeting as part of your scaling strategy?
Blatt: Our Electric Propulsion System (EPS) is being certified under CS-23 in Europe and FAR 23 in the U.S.—the regulatory framework for small aircraft. Specifically, it’s being approved for Levels 1 and 2 aircraft. That includes trainers and two-seaters—light, general aviation aircraft.
The core of our system is modular. The batteries are built as scalable modules. In one aircraft, we might use a specific number of modules in series or parallel, depending on the available volume and the performance requirements of the aircraft.
For example, our technology powers the Bristell B23 Energic. But we’re also working with Piper Aircraft and CAE on the Piper Archer project. It’s the same underlying technology.
The difference is that the Archer is a larger aircraft, so it requires more battery modules. The battery management system (BMS) is designed to accommodate this. It “talks” to the batteries, monitors their health, communicates with the power distribution unit (PDU), and sends real-time data to the pilot on how the cells are performing.
That adapted BMS configuration will need to be certified separately, but we don’t have to recertify the entire propulsion system each time. That’s where the scalability comes in. The system can be applied across multiple platforms with adjustments only to the parts that change.
Once that’s achieved, we open the door to longer ranges, larger aircraft, and even more diverse applications. I’m not sure of the exact term, but in production, you don’t have to re-engineer everything every time. Once you have a production run that works for three or four different aircraft platforms, it becomes much more efficient.
And when you have multiple customers using the same product category, you achieve scalability. Your supply chain becomes more streamlined, costs are reduced, and those savings can be passed along to the customer.
Yes, scalability was something we thought about very carefully when we founded the company.
Jacobsen: What is the current commercial viability of electric propulsion systems in terms of cost savings, reliability, and performance? How does that compare to traditional combustion engines of comparable power?
Blatt: Well, a traditional combustion engine typically needs to be replaced after about 2,500 hours of operation. Our electric motor, on the other hand, lasts up to 5,000 hours.
Electric motors aren’t new—it’s not just Gregory saying that. They’ve been around for a long time, though not widely used in aviation until recently. What we do know is that electric motors are inherently simpler and more efficient.
In a combustion engine—whether in a car or an airplane—only about one-third of the energy from each gallon or litre of fuel goes toward propulsion. One-third is lost to heat in the combustion process, and auxiliary systems like air conditioning, entertainment systems, or avionics consume the other two-thirds of energy.
By contrast, our electric motors operate at an efficiency of 94%. Think about that—94%. That’s a complete game-changer.
Regarding batteries, we currently replace them at approximately 1,500 flight hours. And even then, they’re still in good condition. So, instead of discarding them, we repurpose them for other applications—either in stationary ground systems or through recycling processes. They’re not going to the landfill.
From the operator’s perspective, you’re not burning fuel—you’re investing in technology. We recommend pilots or operators put aside about $100 per hour of flight—about what you’d be spending on fuel and maintenance with a combustion engine. Then, a year or a year and a half later, you’re buying new batteries from us. And those batteries will likely be better because energy density continues to improve with each generation.
That’s a paradigm shift—not just in how you operate the aircraft, but in how you think about depreciation and long-term ownership.
But think about it. A journalist asked me a couple of months ago, “Who’s your biggest competitor?” And I told her, ‘The Gulf Countries‘. She looked at me, clearly expecting an answer like General Electric or Honeywell.
However, when I explained it, she understood. It’s not about competing with other aviation companies. It’s about competing with fossil fuel infrastructure. That money is no longer going into the Sheikh’s pockets—it’s going into technology, and that resonates with people. Investors like it, obviously—because there’s recurring revenue, predictable cost structures, and scalability. But users like it, too.
It’s like consumer tech. You’re always wondering, “Should I buy the new phone now or wait six months for the next model?” And whenever you buy it, it feels like the wrong time. With aviation, that’s changing.
Let me give you an example. When we certify the B23 Energic in Europe, we’re advertising 70 minutes of flight time with reserves. But by the time we certify the same aircraft in the United States—about a year to 18 months later—we expect to advertise a higher endurance. I can’t provide the exact number yet, as we’re still finalizing it, but we’re looking at over 80 minutes.
That’s thanks to improvements in energy density that come with time. And remember, in the training market, airplanes often stay in service for 30 or 35 years. That means we can expect real improvements in performance and economics over the aircraft’s lifetime.
Jacobsen: What strategic partnerships or investments have enabled H55’s breakthroughs?
Blatt: That’s a great question. We’re fortunate to have an exceptional cap table comprising investors from diverse sectors who share our long-term vision for clean aviation.
It began with Silicon Valley investors who became familiar with us through the Solar Impulse project. Then came strategic partners like Raytheon—RTX is one of our investors. We also have an aircraft leasing company involved, and with them, we’re exploring “power-by-the-hour” models. That could be especially useful for smaller flight schools that might not have the capital for complete aircraft acquisition but can operate on a usage-based model.
The government of Quebec is also a strategic investor. We’re based in Montreal, and Quebec views batteries as a key industrial sector—similar to how Nevada focuses on lithium. They’ve supported us with grants and loans and eventually decided to take an equity stake to be more directly involved.
We also have backing from some major family offices in Europe. Interestingly, a few of them built their wealth in traditional natural resources—such as mining and energy—and now, with second- or third-generation leadership, they’re diversifying into clean tech. That’s encouraging. It shows a generational shift toward sustainability and innovation.
We have a fantastic cap table—accessible and well-aligned. I’m part of different cofounder networks, and honestly, many founders complain about their investors. But we’re very fortunate. Our investors are incredibly engaged in the project. They feel more like friends, colleagues, and even team members than just investors.
Sometimes, I forget they’re investors because they’re so involved and genuinely passionate about the project. You can probably hear that in my voice and see it in the way I ask questions—everyone at this company is deeply committed to what we’re doing. It’s more than a job.
That passion started with Solar Impulse, and that same DNA has carried through into H55. It’s part of who we are.
Jacobsen: How could the electrification of flight contribute to international climate goals over the next decade?
Blatt: That’s an important question. Aviation sometimes gets an unfair share of the blame when it comes to emissions. Depending on who you ask, aviation contributes around 2.5% to 4–5% of global greenhouse gas emissions. That’s not insignificant, but it’s not the majority either.
To put things into perspective, 200 of the world’s largest supertankers emit more pollution than all of the world’s cars combined. So, it’s essential to keep the aviation industry’s emissions in context.
Part of the reason aviation gets so much criticism is because of private aviation—luxury jets that are fast, expensive, and consume much fuel. Therefore, there is a social equity element to the critique. However, the commercial aviation sector has made substantial progress over the years. Because of the industry’s sensitivity to fuel prices, there’s been continuous innovation—in materials science, design, aerodynamics, and now propulsion.
We’re currently working with Pratt & Whitney Canada and De Havilland on a hybrid-electric demonstrator based on the 49-seat Dash 8. That aircraft will deliver a 30% fuel savings just by integrating hybrid-electric systems. That’s a significant breakthrough for feeder and regional markets.
So, yes, every one of your questions touches on economics because aviation is deeply tied to the economy. That’s why innovation occurs quickly when there is a cost-saving incentive. And electric propulsion is delivering those incentives.
Additionally, it’s worth noting that people are travelling more now than they did before COVID-19 the pandemic. At the same time, ticket prices per mile have increased significantly. And we’re training more pilots now than ever before. That’s partly due to retirements in developed countries, but it’s also because general aviation is expanding in new markets—across the Middle East, the Gulf, parts of Asia, and especially India and China.
Electrification can play a significant role in making that growth more sustainable. So yes, by definition, that 4–5% contribution from aviation to global emissions may increase as more people fly. However, at the same time, the aviation industry is making significant strides—both through traditional advancements and innovative concepts—to reduce its carbon footprint.
Jacobsen: Gregory, thank you for your time.
Blatt: Got it. And thank you again, Scott. It’s been a pleasure.
Jacobsen: Likewise. And I appreciate your time today.
Blatt: You’re welcome. I can only commend you for these kinds of initiatives and the articles you’re writing. You have our full support.
Jacobsen: Likewise. Thank you again.
Blatt: Thank you. Bye-bye.
Jacobsen: Bye-bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/02
Riane Eisler, an Austrian-born American systems scientist, futurist, and human rights advocate, is renowned for her influential work on cultural transformation and gender equity. Best known for The Chalice and the Blade, she introduced the partnership vs. dominator models of social organization. She received the Humanist Pioneer Award, and in conversation with Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Eisler emphasized the urgent need for humanists to focus on values-based systems and the transformative power of caring economics. Drawing from neuroscience and history, she argues that peace begins at home and calls for a shift in worldview to build more equitable, sustainable, and compassionate societies rooted in connection, not control. The three books of hers of note that could be highlighted are The Chalice and the Blade—now in its 57th U.S. printing with 30 foreign editions, The Real Wealth of Nations, and Nurturing Our Humanity: How Domination and Partnership Shape Our Brains, Lives, and Future (Oxford University Press, 2019). Eisler shares her personal journey and groundbreaking systems analysis that redefines how we understand politics, economics, gender, and social change. Drawing from her childhood escape from Nazi-occupied Austria, Eisler explains her framework of the domination-partnership social scale. She argues that genuine transformation requires examining four cornerstones: family and childhood, gender roles, economic values, and cultural narratives/language. Highlighting how authoritarian structures perpetuate violence and trauma, she calls for a shift toward partnership systems rooted in empathy, equity, and relations of mutuality rather than in-group versus out-group thinking and acting. Eisler’s work invites us to rethink progress through a truly whole-systems perspective. This interview was conducted June 21, 2025.
Riane Eisler: Would you like me to begin with a personal note? Because that is what I would like to do.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Please do.
Eisler: Well, I have a great deal of passion for this work of systems analysis and for spreading what I call the partnership-domination social scale—a new way of looking at the world. That’s where it all starts: our worldview and how we live in this world. Systems can change from what I have called a domination-oriented to a partnership-oriented model. That passion is deeply rooted in my childhood.
And, yes, I include childhood and family—areas that are not usually part of the conventional discourse about politics, economics, climate change, and so on—in my analysis as fundamental. It began in my childhood. I was born in Vienna, Austria, and as a small child, I and my parents fled the Nazis after the German annexation of Austria in 1938. That experience—escaping the horrors that many did not escape—shaped me profoundly.
I witnessed cruelty and violence firsthand. I remember the night when the Gestapo came to our home and took my father away. But I also saw what I now call spiritual courage. My mother found the courage to resist out of love. She recognized one of the men as a young Austrian who had once run errands for the family business, she confronted him and demanded the release of my father. My mother could have been arrested or killed. Many Jewish people were rounded up or killed that night. It was during the November pogrom, known as Kristallnacht—”the Night of Broken Glass”—because of all the glass shattered in Jewish homes, synagogues, and businesses. By a miracle—and yes, by bribing the officials—she succeeded in having my father released.
Seeing these two human possibilities—cruelty and compassion—led me to a lifelong question that underlies my research: Does it have to be this way? Must there be so much cruelty, insensitivity, and violence when humans have such an enormous capacity for caring, empathy, and peace? It is revealing, is it not, that we do not even have a word for nonviolence that does not contain the word “violence”?
Years later, to answer whether domination is inevitable or whether an alternative is possible—given our human capacity for caring, consciousness, and connection—I embarked on a whole-systems analysis. I realized immediately that I could not answer my childhood questions using the usual categories: right and left, religious and secular, Eastern and Western, Northern and Southern, capitalist and socialist. After all, history shows us brutal, oppressive, and authoritarian regimes under every one of these labels. So, none of these categories tells us what we must build instead.
And here is something that might surprise you: I realized that what I—and much of social discourse—had long taken for granted, namely the marginalization or outright neglect of family relations and childhood, needed to be brought to the very center of our understanding of social systems and cultural transformation.
The marginalization—at best—of nothing less than the majority of humanity, namely women and children, is central. We cannot understand human societies without examining our origins and our families. Children usually spend their earliest and most formative years within families, right? As I write in my latest book, Nurturing Our Humanity, which came out with Oxford University Press in 2019, we know this from nothing less than neuroscience. We know that our brains are not fully formed at birth and that we acquire our worldviews—our paradigms, if you will—long before we have fully developed brains, much less mature critical capacities.
To make a long story short, this systems analysis led me to define two primary cultural configurations: the partnership system and the domination system. Of course, no society is completely oriented to one or the other; there is always a mix. However, these configurations encompass family, gender relations, and other domains that we have been taught—and are still taught—to marginalize. We cannot understand our past, our present, or—most importantly—the possibilities for our future, without a systems analysis that connects these dots. That is what led me to develop the partnership-domination social scale.
Jacobsen: When you are looking at this partnership-domination social scale, what are the key factors that form its core structure—the elements that everything else tends to grow from?
Eisler: Well, I will start with some examples. If you look at the Taliban and fundamentalist Iran—both Eastern religious societies—or if you look at Hitler’s Nazi Germany, or Putin’s Russia today, or even the new regime here in the United States right now, they all lean heavily toward the domination side of the spectrum. Even though they differ in religion, geography, or ideology—Eastern, Western, Northern, Southern, secular, religious, and so on—think about it for a moment: what do they all have in common?
First—and this takes us back to the fundamentals—they share a top-down, authoritarian structure in both the family and society at large, including their economic systems. Why have we not been taught to include this in our analyses? Yet, as I said, neuroscience shows us that nothing less than our early experiences shape our brains. The second factor is gender, which again has been marginalized.
Gender is not just a so-called “women’s issue” or now also a “men’s issue”—which, of course, makes it an issue for everyone, including those who do not fit neatly into either category. Gender is a fundamental organizing principle in families, societies, and economies. All of these foundational elements are interconnected, and there are four main ones.
First, we have the structure of family and childhood, which largely shapes the structure of society because the two are intrinsically connected. Second, we have gender. What do children learn in a family or culture that leans toward the domination side? They learn to equate difference—starting with the difference in form between the male and female body—with rigid gender stereotypes and strict hierarchies, leaving no room for anything in between. And they learn to rank male and “masculine” over female and feminine. They learn to equate this difference with superiority or inferiority, with dominating or being dominated, with serving or being served.
So, what you get in domination systems—beginning with gender—is in-group versus out-group thinking. Our human capacity for empathy, which is an evolutionary trait, must either be suppressed entirely for the out-group or, at best, compartmentalized.
Now, the third element—and this is crucial—is violence. Domination systems are fundamentally maintained through fear and the threat or infliction of pain. This has numerous ramifications, as I have emphasized, because all these elements are interconnected. Domination-oriented societies have built-in mechanisms to perpetuate themselves through various forms of abuse—ranging from violence against women and children to abuse in workplaces to organized social violence such as warfare, pogroms, and lynchings.
Consider again the Taliban: their oppression is deeply rooted in rigid gender control. The same is true of Iran under Khomeini and other fundamentalist regimes. Hitler’s Nazi regime placed enormous emphasis on controlling women and enforcing strict gender roles—though this aspect is often overlooked in mainstream discourse because, whether people lean left or right politically, our dominant economic and political theories have long marginalized gender. Marx, for instance,considered the so-called “woman question” secondary to the “working man’s” struggle –though he might have thought differently today, given the progress of international women’s movements and shifts in consciousness,.
The fourth element is what stories are considered normative. Many of our inherited stories about human nature come from rigid, authoritarian, violent dominator times. They teach us that human nature is inherently bad or selfish. But this is simply untrue. The entire debate of “nature versus nurture” is misleading: it is not nature or nurture—it is nature and nurture. Nurture determines, as some of the research I cite in Nurturing Our Humanity shows, which of our genetic potentials are expressed or suppressed.
Genes do play a role, but they constantly interact with what is fundamentally a human creation: culture. Look at stories like blaming Eve or Pandora for all of humanity’s ills—these myths perfectly reflect the marginalization of women and reinforce the domination system’s worldview. So, we must begin questioning these stories, connecting the dots, and bringing back into focus what has long been ignored: childhood, family, and gender.
Once we do this, we have a framework for both tactics—addressing the constant crises domination systems produce—and for strategies—building long-term change. This is why my work identifies four cornerstones: family and childhood, gender, economics (specifically, what we reward and label as productive or unproductive work), and story and language.
It is so telling, is it not, that so much of what we consider “productive” ignores what sustains life? Caring and connection are vital from the moment we are born. Yet, in many economic models, this essential work is undervalued or invisible. Therefore, redefining what we consider productive or reproductive labour is crucial. And, of course, how we use stories and language shapes everything.
Jacobsen: So, what about the axes of individuals? Do you feel or think that we need to create new stories when many freer societies are, in various ways—though not in every respect—moving away from dominator structures and processes, whether you are talking about individuals or how society sees itself and functions?
Eisler: Absolutely. But before we can present or create new stories, we need a transformation of our worldview. I know that is possible because it happened to me. I have a background also as an attorney. One day, the partner in the Beverly Hills entertainment law firm I was working for called me into his office to compliment me—or so he thought. He said, “You don’t think like a woman.”
I took it as a compliment at the time. That shows you where my consciousness was—I identified with the so-called masculine. This segregation into so-called “feminine” and “masculine” qualities is something we need to reexamine. And we are seeing this change all around us again and again. Think of all the men today who are fathering in ways that were once seen as exclusively mothering—diapering babies, feeding babies.
This is fundamental. As I have mentioned, it serves as an organizing principle for families, societies, and economies.
Jacobsen: Are there areas that you find are still understudied about this theoretical framework for analyzing systems of partnership and domination in the world?
Eisler: You have to consider what real whole-systems analysis entails—and what often passes for it. I was, by the way, exposed to that very early in my career. One of my first jobs was with an offshoot of the RAND Corporation, the Systems Development Corporation. This was eons ago. They thought they were doing systems work, but, of course, they were leaving out gender. They were leaving our family. They were leaving out childhood. They were not connecting the dots. But the concept of systems stayed with me.
Even being trained as an attorney, which I am, taught me systems thinking. In law school, you are taught how to brief a case. But in reality, a client does not come to you and say, “Please apply Section 1222 of this or that code to my situation.” The client comes with a story, and it is up to the attorney to determine which laws, precedents, regulations, and statutes apply.
I had extensive training in systems analysis. When I discovered feminism—which I fully embrace, though I often avoid the term because it can sound separatist—I realized we need to transform gender stereotypes for both women and men. Men do not have it so good in a domination system either. Just think about it.
You have to give your whole self—nothing less than your life—because some man at the top, like Putin, demands it. Right? And this is fundamental: to be considered a “real man” in domination systems, you have to suppress your humanity.
Jacobsen: Yes. So it is not only women who suffer—it is men, too. Would you argue, then, that in domination-oriented societies, this suppression of men’s humanity is not only required but is actually at the root of the system?
Eisler: Oh, it is required, and my analysis shows how it is systematically suppressed. I was interviewed by Scientific American, for example, not long ago about why there is such a strong connection between trauma in families—where it all starts—and authoritarian societies. Yes, many leaders of institutions that are regressing toward domination are themselves deeply traumatized. But really, we are all traumatized to some degree in domination systems.
Domination systems are trauma factories. They begin with the misallocation of resources. There is always money for the so-called “masculine”—for wars, for weapons, and so on. However, there is somehow never enough money for caring for people, particularly for caring for children. This makes no sense. Yet, it is deeply embedded in the system.
So, when you do accurate systems analysis, you must connect the dots. You cannot just point at one factor and say, “This is the cause.” We are hosting a summit called “Peace Begins at Home” on October 29, 2025. We will feature speakers from around the world. It is an amazing virtual event—and you, of course, are invited. The point of it is to emphasize that we cannot keep using only linear cause-and-effect thinking. For complex living systems, we need to draw on newer theoretical frameworks, such as chaos theory, nonlinear dynamics, and self-organization theory.
My work relates to these. That is not to say that linear analysis has no value, there are always intervening variables. But if we study living systems like societies, we miss the point if we fail to connect their key components. I have introduced a new methodology: the study of relational dynamics.
First, what kinds of relationships does a given type of society encourage or suppress? That is a fundamental question. Second, how do the major components of that society interconnect to either support or inhibit a particular pattern of relationships across all its institutions? That is genuine whole-systems analysis—and it is not as complicated as some think.
The real struggle for our future is not between right and left. Look at Stalin’s regime, for example—his wife committed suicide because of how deeply entangled he was in maintaining a domination system. This connects to the larger structure. The real struggle is between the regression and perpetuation of domination systems and the advancement of partnership systems.
Those invested in domination have a very coherent worldview that starts with controlling family and childhood—how you”raise” your children. Gender is a massive piece of it, yet it is so fragmented in our mainstream discourse. We must integrate all of this to see the whole picture.
Jacobsen: Including economics?
Eisler: Economics, as practiced in domination systems, is domination economics—whether it is an ancient Chinese emperor, an Arab sheikh, an Indian maharaja, a feudal lord, or so-called neoliberalism, which is neither new nor liberal. They are geniuses at co-opting terms and coining phrases that mask reality. What is neoliberalism? It conditions people to accept a system in which those at the bottom must content themselves with the scraps that, quite literally, in feudal times fell from the opulent tables of those at the top.
Jacobsen: Do you have any final thoughts for this first session based on the overview we have just covered?
Eisler: Well, this overview must end with the four cornerstones. Because without addressing them, we are just treading water. I was speaking to a friend of mine who now works to help progressive NGOs defend themselves against hacking, surveillance, and appropriation. This is true—it is big business under the current system. But it does not fundamentally change anything.
We have to understand, as I said earlier, that the real struggle for our future is not between right and left, religious and secular, Eastern and Western, Northern and Southern. There are religious movements, such as Unitarian Universalism, which are very accepting. The Baháʼí Faith tries to move in that direction. Some mystical traditions focus on the core teachings of Jesus—on caring and compassion, the so-called feminine principles. Do unto others as you would have them do unto you. But in most religions, scriptures also contain overlays of domination teachings.
The struggle for our future lies between regression to domination—anchored in a concrete framework that encompasses childhood, gender, economics, narrative, and language—and the move toward a partnership system. Examine our fragmented movements: the gender equality movement, the environmental movement, the relatively recent children’s rights movement, the push for economic equity, and the movement to value diversity. Why do you think there is such an effort now in the United States to dismantle diversity policies? It is all related. The opposition has a coherent frame. We, so far, do not—and we are scattered. Without a coherent worldview, without a cohesive frame, we are floundering.
Jacobsen: Riane, I just wanted to say—thank you so much for your time today.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/02
Public policy researcher Dr. Daniel Wortel-London explores how AI reshapes urban planning by echoing historical growth patterns, inequality, and innovation. Drawing on his forthcoming book The Menace of Prosperity, he compares the rise of AI to earlier technological shifts like highway expansion and the postwar white-collar economy. While AI offers tools for participatory budgeting and data-driven decisions, it also risks reinforcing existing biases. Dr. Wortel-London urges communities to engage early in AI governance and to prioritize inclusive, equitable growth—challenging the myth that all growth is inherently good or sustainable.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are speaking with Dr. Daniel Wortel-London. He is a public policy researcher and historian currently serving as a Visiting Assistant Professor at Bard College. His work focuses on twentieth-century economic and urban policy and the historical roots of inequality and economic development in New York City. He is completing a book titled The Menace of Prosperity: The Rise and Fall of the American City, 1865–1981, forthcoming from the University of Chicago Press later this year.
His scholarship has appeared in top academic journals and media outlets, including The Washington Post and Jacobin. A recipient of prestigious fellowships, Dr. Wortel-London has taught at institutions such as NYU and CUNY and held roles in policy research and museum curation. He is based in New York City. Thank you for joining me today. Let me find my notes—here they are. So, how is AI being integrated into urban planning initiatives?
Dr. Daniel Wortel-London: From the nineteenth century on, cities have used new technologies—from census-taking to social statistics—to promote growth and livability. AI continues this trend, though its adaptive, learning capabilities make it especially powerful—and potentially disruptive
A century ago, efforts were made to revolutionize municipal data management. Innovations in census-taking and the development of social statistics were used to plan highways, public housing, and other infrastructure. We’re seeing a scaled-up version that applies to new domains like urban sustainability. Of course, contemporary concerns—such as data privacy—also have historical parallels.
From a historical standpoint, today’s integration of AI reflects a long-standing goal of cities: to achieve economic growth, improve transportation and administrative efficiency, and enhance overall livability. My forthcoming book focuses on this evolution from 1865 to 1981. AI, of course, is a different kind of technology—it’s not just a tool like a calculator or database. It’s adaptive, autonomous in specific contexts, and capable of learning and evolving, making it powerful and potentially disruptive.
Jacobsen: How is artificial intelligence applied in urban contexts beyond planning? You mentioned historical parallels—are there similarities in the types of societal adaptations required now compared to those between 1865 and 1981?
Wortel-London: Absolutely. Cities have historically had to adapt to shifting environmental and infrastructural demands. For example, New York needed to secure fresh water in the mid-nineteenth century as its population rapidly expanded. Later, new management systems and public investments addressed challenges like traffic congestion, overcrowded housing, and public health crises. These responses often operated within constraints—many of which persist today. Chief among them is the emphasis on economic growth.
For instance, proposals to solve environmental problems are frequently limited by concerns over property values or the risk of wealthier residents and businesses relocating. That was true in the nineteenth century during the construction of the Croton Aqueduct system and remains true now in debates around renewable energy infrastructure and circular economy models.
In short, adaptability has always been essential to urban life. Cities are dynamic organisms, constantly changing in response to internal and external pressures. My book tries to explain how certain assumptions are baked into the DNA of many cities—assumptions that often persist and constrain our responses to challenges. These assumptions can prevent us from thinking more creatively about how to build vibrant, livable cities.
Of course, possibilities always have to adapt to economic conditions. One specific example from the early twentieth century is the introduction of the car—the Model T—and the associated transformations. That shift replaced the horse as the primary mode of transportation. There was even a whole industry built around cleaning up horse manure, which had been a major urban problem in many cities.
Jacobsen: YDo you see a less explicit version of that transformation with the shift toward an AI-driven technological environment? Are there specific changes that are just as vast, particularly with the loss of entire industries?
Wortel-London: As a professor, I see my students using ChatGPT, but I won’t name names.
Jacobsen: But we know who you are.
Wortel-London: [Laughing] Yes, we know. Students are using AI in new and interesting ways. The danger of automation—a serious concern for factory workers in the 1950s and 60s—is now equally a threat to many creative or finance-based professions.
Entire fields like law, academia, tech, and healthcare are seeing how AI development could lead to job displacement in cities. This presents a real risk for towns that have bet heavily on white-collar, professional-based economies to carry them forward. That strategy has been in place at least since the 1950s.
Before that, in the 1920s, many cities had placed their bets on real estate growth. The Great Depression showed that this alone was not a stable foundation. So after World War II, cities began to think: we’ll still need people doing business together. We need to find the most profitable use of dense urban space.
They believed that use was white-collar work—an early version of today’s “creative economy” arguments. They thought bringing people together in cities would allow them to make faster and better decisions.
But honestly, white-collar work today could be what industrial work was in the 1950s—an economy based on specific technologies or spatial arrangements that are not necessarily permanent. Like the internet, AI can diminish the city’s centrality for some kinds of jobs.
You can see that we’re talking right now over Zoom rather than in a coffee shop. But yes, cities face a real challenge in rethinking their economic raison d’être in the age of AI—and the threat of job displacement that may accompany it.
You can make a city efficient, but that does not necessarily mean employing people. And the deeper, more fundamental point we’re getting at is this: not all growth is good.
Jacobsen: Eric Schmidt, the former CEO of Google, recently said that “growth solves all problems in democracy.” That is, metaphorically speaking, a flat-rate philosophical and economic opinion—which seems untenable in its simplicity. What is the more complicated, more accurate statement?
Wortel-London: On an environmental level, you cannot have infinite growth on a finite planet. That is a physical reality. You cannot have unlimited access to anything – there will be diminishing returns. That’s the second law of thermodynamics—there’s eventually a limit to how much energy, or “juice,” you can squeeze from this planet.
But beyond the environmental level, growth always comes with costs.
When cities built highways in the 1950s, they assumed this would be an “efficient,” cost-neutral activity. However, many of those highways bulldozed neighbourhoods and displaced taxpaying residents and businesses, and cities did not fully feel those impacts until the fiscal crises of the 1970s.
Even in the 1950s, people like Jane Jacobs could sense that something was deeply wrong with these projects. But the powers that be were saying, “Well, this is growth, this is efficiency. Growth and efficiency are good.” In their view, the only solution to the problems caused by growth was more growth.
When we examine the history of development strategies, we see that the logic remains the same: “Growth will pay for itself.” But in truth, the costs of growth—whether pollution, destructive infrastructure, or unaffordable housing—often hit vulnerable urban populations first. Only later do those costs hit the city as a whole. But when they do, cities often find themselves in the position of their poorest neighborhoods: bankrupt.
Jacobsen: So these are the so-called economic externalities. However, the term externalities almost minimizes the issue. It is economical to use the trash bin icon on your desktop.
Wortel-London: It is like a deus ex machina—a way of pretending it will all sort itself out in the end.
Jacobsen: The assumption that “growth solves all problems” essentially says there is only one way to grow the economy. But if we move away from the question “Should we have growth or not?” and instead ask what kind of growth we want, we will have a far more interesting and productive conversation. What do we want growth for? What is the best way to pursue it? From 1865 to 1981, shortly thereafter, the Soviet Union collapsed. Francis Fukuyama was publishing grand books about the “end of history.” So, those kinds of ideological notions were very much in the air. Is there a distinction between what prosperity meant from 1865 to 1981 and what it came to mean from 1982 to 2025?
Wortel-London: From the 1980s until the financial crisis in 2008, the urban development strategy in many cities remained consistent. What you saw, especially in cities, was an ongoing effort to attract and retain high-income individuals and firms under the assumption that their wealth would help fund desirable social services. If that led to gentrification, that was often considered just the cost of doing business.
There were shifts in how people defined urban growth—not just through ballparks, stadiums, or convention centers, but through more pedestrian-friendly areas and Jane Jacobs-style mixed-use development. Still, the underlying target remained the same: wealthier residents—what we once called “yuppies”—those who could raise aggregate property values and provide a strong tax base.
Since 2008, however, we’ve begun to see the limits of that model—not only within cities but across the country. On the one hand, a few coastal cities in the U.S.—and cities like London or Paris in Europe—are absorbing most of the economic growth. The regions left behind are responding with political backlash, blaming an economy that rewards a small elite at the expense of everyone else. On the other hand, cities themselves are becoming more unaffordable as elites cluster into them.
One reaction has been exclusionary nationalism, raising tariffs and pulling the drawbridge. But another approach is to follow the money—asking questions like: Who is buying what in this country? Who has purchasing power? Where is that money going? Is it staying within local communities? Is it supporting small businesses?
AI can help with that. At its best, AI can help us make better decisions about the kinds of economies we want to foster by providing clearer assessments of the costs and benefits of different development strategies. We can use it to analyze whether certain growth types—like stadiums and skyscrapers—actually pay off economically.
Should we invest in a new stadium? Should we give Amazon tax breaks to open a facility in our city? Or should we invest in small businesses, community land trusts, and local ownership models? AI can help us evaluate those options.
But it won’t—as long as AI is used merely to make “business as usual” more efficient. In that context, AI is not intelligent, but dumb: It narrows our imagination and limits our ability to think creatively about how cities can grow differently.
Jacobsen: That’s a subtle but important point. The emphasis is usually on increasing computational power or access to large-scale computing, which was once called “computation.” There’s often a focus on the sophistication of the algorithms because brilliant people are designing them. But when it comes to our use of AI—how it affects our thinking, planning, and imagination—it can be constraining rather than liberating. That part of the conversation is rarely brought up. What about cross-sector collaboration to accelerate innovative, AI-empowered urban ecosystems? I mean collaboration between government, academia, and the tech industry.
Wortel-London: When you say “ecosystem,” are you referring to the natural environment, or are you talking more about policy innovation?
Jacobsen: Policy innovation is needed so that friction in collaboration is minimized. You can touch on some of the previously mentioned externalities.
Wortel-London: Right now, AI has much potential to address some of these challenges. We’re already seeing it in initiatives like participatory budgeting and open data platforms that allow citizens—especially those who may not have traditionally engaged in governance—to participate in decision-making about local initiatives.
To the extent that we can outsource certain governmental activities to civil society, that’s a positive development. However, much of the data involved is still proprietary or exclusive. For example, when data is used in housing, law enforcement, or public contracts, and private entities control it, it hinders collaboration and raises serious privacy concerns. I was listening to a podcast recently. The host talked about sensors capable of detecting “antisocial behaviour.” The question is: Who gets to define that?
Governments should be setting AI risk thresholds, applying a precautionary principle to determine in advance when a given application crosses the line into a rights violation. Should we allow facial recognition technology in public spaces to be governed solely by bureaucrats or private contractors? We should have a say in this, not just bureaucrats and contractors.
So, community representation—across all segments of society—needs to be involved from the beginning in these technologies’ design, rollout, and implementation.
Jacobsen: How can things go wrong in the implementation of these technologies? People may present excellent proposals on paper, but things often do not go as planned when they are implemented. What typically causes that breakdown? Is it that the idea was never viable, or does the concept not translate well into practice?
Wortel-London: One issue with some of these AI-related policies might be that the technology is simply not ready yet. Take, for example, circular economy models and the ability to accurately measure whether a city’s waste is being reused or recycled back into productive systems. That approach could work well, but it has not yet been implemented effectively on a wide scale.
However, I would say the greater danger is when the systems work too well, but within very narrow parameters. In those cases, they tend to reproduce the assumptions and biases embedded in them from the start.
If you use algorithms to promote flawed development strategies, you are making them more straightforward to implement and more challenging to reverse. They’ll be rolled out at such speed and scale that contesting them after the fact becomes much harder.
This also applies to bias in law enforcement. If algorithms are used to prescreen individuals or predict where crime is more likely to occur, they may disproportionately concentrate policing in low-income neighbourhoods.
But what about crimes in finance? What about crimes on Wall Street? Will we redefine crime to include forms of harm that rarely make headlines? The risk is that these tools—rather than expanding our vision—may simply reproduce our existing assumptions.
There’s that old saying: Everything looks like a nail when you have a hammer. In the age of AI, it becomes: when you have AI, everything looks like data. But what ultimately makes cities valuable are the stories and experiences of the people living in them—not all of that can be reduced to ones and zeros.
Think about what Jane Jacobs would say about AI. If there’s anyone who could be considered the patron saint of urbanism, it is her. Her vision of the city was that of a street ballet—a complex, spontaneous choreography of human life. I am not sure there is an algorithm or equation for that.
But it would require flesh-and-blood human interaction. The top-down technocracy that Jane Jacobs opposed in the 1960s is not so different from the kind of technocracy we might face now if we hand over governance decisions to AI without serious public oversight.
So, we need to remember past struggles—against displacement, against highways, against destructive development projects—and ask: how might AI repeat those harms if we’re not careful?
Jacobsen: Daniel, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate your expertise—and it was a pleasure to meet you.
Wortel-London: Yes, thank you so much, Scott. I hope some of this was useful.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/01
Irina Tsukerman is a human rights and national security attorney based in New York and Connecticut. She earned her Bachelor of Arts in National and Intercultural Studies and Middle East Studies from Fordham University in 2006, followed by a Juris Doctor from Fordham University School of Law in 2009. She operates a boutique national security law practice. She serves as President of Scarab Rising, Inc., a media and security strategic advisory firm. Additionally, she is the Editor-in-Chief of The Washington Outsider, which focuses on foreign policy, geopolitics, security, and human rights. She is actively involved in several professional organizations, including the American Bar Association’s Energy, Environment, and Science and Technology Sections, where she holds the position of Program Vice Chair in the Oil and Gas Committee. She is also a member of the New York City Bar Association. She serves on the Middle East and North Africa Affairs Committee and affiliates with the Foreign and Comparative Law Committee. Tsukerman talks with Scott Douglas Jacobsen dissect Russia’s strategic bombing in Ukraine, its propaganda apparatus, and the West’s hesitant sanctions under Trump’s “two-week” deadline. The conversation then spans Indo-Pacific deterrence—British warships in the Taiwan Strait—and the pitfalls of unconditional ceasefires with Hamas and Iran, revealing critical gaps in modern geopolitical risk management.This interview was conducted on June 21, 2025.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Once more, we are here with the Everywhere Insiders, joined by New York attorney Irina Tsukerman. Today’s sources include the White House, Reuters, AP News, Human Rights Watch, Amnesty International, and the United Nations. A deadly drone strike has hit Kyiv. On June 17, 2025, a massive barrage of drones and missiles destroyed an apartment block in Kyiv, killing at least eighteen people and wounding over 150. As a footnote, I was there from August to September, and during that period, there was a significant attack in Poltava. We were there within a few hours. BBC’s team was there, Al Jazeera’s team was there—many media outlets covered it the same day.
I believe the final numbers for that strike were approximately fifty-nine killed and about 328 injured. One of the targets was a medical facility.
Irina Tsukerman: A few points must be emphasized. First, Russia is losing. A victorious military power does not need to rely on striking civilian infrastructure and non-combatants; it can achieve its objectives through territorial advances alone. Russia has made gains, indirectly aided by Trump’s foreign policy positions, but clearly not enough or quickly enough to secure decisive victories.
Moreover, after the operations, Spiderweb has lost much of its capacity to continue advancing. At some point, its gains will come to an end, and it is anticipating that by causing as much damage as possible in the meantime.
Second, we are now in week eight or nine of Trump’s so-called two-week deadline before he decides whether to sanction Russia over civilian casualties. After infamously asking what happened to Putin, Trump has since offered various excuses for Putin’s civilian attacks, claiming they are retaliation for so-called terrorism, and has done absolutely nothing to stop them by providing Ukraine with additional defensive capacity. He has done the opposite.
He has stated that he would halt assistance to Ukraine entirely and avoid taking any action against Russia. That is precisely what has happened since then. Of course, seeing that it effectively has a green light to keep targeting civilians, Russia will continue doing exactly that — because it is Russia. So yes, Donald Trump bears significant responsibility for these developments because his policies made them possible and have encouraged them in multiple ways, including by providing cover for Russia’s narratives.
I should also note that there are various propagandists for Russia who, no matter how vile their claims, are often labelled as working for other actors like Qatar. It is true that, in some cases, they serve multiple interests. However, many people are reluctant to directly attribute certain propaganda to Russian intelligence, even though it is obvious that some narratives originate there. Qatar has money but lacks Russia’s sophisticated narrative machinery.
So when you see people like Candace Owens and a few others, the fact is that at various points, they were amplified or supported by Russian interests — yet many people are afraid to say that outright. I do not know whether this is to avoid angering Trump or because they are deeply entangled with Russian propaganda networks by now. However, calling someone a Russian propagandist has become almost taboo in Washington circles.
Jacobsen: To your earlier point, Ukraine has managed to halt the Russian advance in Sumy. They announced that they had recaptured the village of Andriivka in the Sumy region, which had been the site of a major Russian offensive near the border. It involved the 220th Separate Assault Regiment. President Zelensky has called for stronger sanctions on Moscow and renewed pressure for peace talks.
Tsukerman: Well, obviously, Putin has shown little genuine interest in peace talks. What is even worse than Putin’s predictable posture is that Trump fled the G7 meeting before meeting with Zelensky — apparently out of fear of facing him. He cut the trip short and claimed he needed to handle an Iran issue, but that was just an excuse. He also tried to avoid President Macron, who was pressing him to take a clear position on Russia.
Trump’s response regarding Iran was to claim that Macron is always wrong about everything and is also wrong about Iran — which may or may not be true, but it had nothing to do with why Trump left the G7. Moreover, Trump has already announced that he will cut his NATO meeting in the Netherlands short, essentially because he does not want to deal with other world leaders.
Moreover, yes, one could say that he is supposedly in the middle of deciding whether or not to launch military strikes on Iran. However, given his recent record with Russia, I suspect we can expect more of the same with Iran as well. In other words, it is just an excuse to avoid awkward situations that would force him to answer for his completely failing policies.
Jacobsen: Two related updates: British warships recently transited the Taiwan Strait, allegedly. The Chinese military criticized the British passage as a deliberate provocation. Meanwhile, Taiwan is enhancing its maritime surveillance capabilities in response to the rising regional tensions. Taiwan has been sounding the alarm about the rise in Chinese military activity around the island, primarily involving warships and warplanes operating in the Pacific near its territorial waters. There were Coast Guard drills in Kaohsiung to demonstrate preparedness. What are your thoughts on the situation — the frigate passage, China’s response, and Taiwan’s countermeasures?
Tsukerman: The British action is only a provocation if you accept the premise that other countries are entitled to threaten their neighbours with the takeover and military force. If you do not accept that, then it is not a provocation at all — it is strategic deterrence and communication, which poses no real threat to China unless China itself intends aggression. If you are not planning to invade someone, there is nothing to be provoked by.
That said, the British have created this contradiction themselves. You cannot simultaneously maintain the “One China” policy and then act surprised when China asserts that Taiwan is part of its sovereign territory. At some point, you have to make up your mind: if you intend to stand with Taiwan, then you must formally recognize it as an independent country and treat it accordingly.
Otherwise, this so-called “strategic ambiguity” invites predictable aggression and allows China to advance its narrative unchallenged because no one is willing to take a clear stand. The same applies to the United States and other Western countries. If they want Taiwan to have the security guarantees and international standing of an independent state, then they must treat it as such.
You cannot have it both ways. This is precisely what China exploits — the fact that Western states want to have their cake and eat it too: maintain profitable trade relations with Beijing while simultaneously offering rhetorical support for Taiwan. That inconsistency undermines deterrence and emboldens China’s position.
Jacobsen: I wanted to follow up on that point. The formal policy for a long time has been, I believe, called the “One China” policy — or is it sometimes phrased as the “Two Chinas”?
Tsukerman: Well, officially, it is called the “One China” policy. Under this framework, most countries formally recognize Beijing as the legitimate government of China but maintain informal relations with Taiwan and treat it as an ally or partner in practice.
Jacobsen: But how can you defend Taiwan under international law if it is not formally recognized as an independent state? If it is considered a non-state actor, and then a state actor moves to take it over, what is the legal or diplomatic basis for stopping that claim?
Tsukerman: That is precisely the contradiction. If you are going to say that Taiwan is not a fully independent territory, then you leave open the door for China to justify its claims. That policy framework — the balancing act — has been in place since the 1970s, codified differently by each country but essentially consistent: diplomatic recognition of Beijing, with unofficial relations maintained with Taipei. Over time, it has only grown more contradictory.
Jacobsen: All right — this next one is more sensitive but also somewhat comical. Trump has now demanded that Iran agree to an unconditional surrender amid the ongoing Israel–Iran war. This has been unfolding between June 17 and June 20. Calls for airstrikes in both Israel and Iran have intensified. People can see that all over social media. As a side note, there is value in having this sort of high-speed, gossip-like global chatter, as it allows people to form rapid impressions. However, it still requires professional journalists and properly trained analysts to filter out the noise and present an accurate, concise, and factual narrative. So context is crucial — people see the missile footage but often do not understand the broader developments.
That is the first point. Then, according to AP, there has been no breakthrough in Europe’s diplomatic efforts to de-escalate the Israel–Iran conflict. They are calling it “Europe’s Geneva Initiative,” but so far, it has yielded no ceasefire agreement.
Tsukerman: It is typical of many European diplomatic pushes.
Jacobsen: What is the problem with the Western perception of this dynamic?
Tsukerman: First of all, two things can be true at the same time: no one should ever be tortured, and at the same time, just because someone has been tortured does not automatically make them a hero. Sometimes, regimes torture their people for political maneuvering or factional reasons — much like how Trump berates or fires his appointees when they fall out of favour.
Take Narges Mohammadi, for example. She began as a legitimate critic of the regime, but in the current context, she has, to some extent, been co-opted by the same regime in exchange for commuting part of her 32-year sentence. She recently issued a statement calling for peace — but without condemning the regime’s nuclear ambitions, its threats against other sovereign states, or acknowledging its fundamental lack of political legitimacy. So, yes — torture does not automatically confer moral infallibility.
Jacobsen: Fair point. Back to the main thread — so, no diplomatic breakthroughs. This one is grim: Human Rights Watch has reported that violations involving children in armed conflict are soaring. They documented over 26,000 verified grave violations against children in 2024 alone, including killings, abductions, and recruitment across various conflict zones. According to reports, this marks a record high, and Human Rights Watch has urged UN member states to enforce child protection measures and sanction those who violate them. That is a sensitive topic — do you have any thoughts on it?
Tsukerman: One of the most significant recent violators in this area is Russia. They have not only been training Russian-born children for conflict through militaristic school programs, but they have also been abducting Ukrainian children and indoctrinating them in school camps, essentially trying to turn them against their families and home communities.
Tsukerman: In this, they are following an Iranian model. Various Iranian proxies — Hezbollah, Houthis, Hamas — do precisely the same thing: abducting children of their adversaries, turning them into child soldiers, and then deploying them to terrorize or even murder their own families. It is an extensive process involving psychological breakdown and militant training.
I do not know whether these children can be fully deprogrammed — it likely depends on how young they were when taken, whether they have committed violence, and what stage of indoctrination they are in. I am not an expert on child soldier rehabilitation, but what I can say is that while there has been some attention to Russia abducting Ukrainian children, it is still not enough. Moreover, there is even less discussion about Russia using child soldiers more broadly — both their own and Ukrainian.
Russia is one of the major contributors to these grim statistics. Moreover, they are likely enabling or supporting other groups worldwide that use the same tactics. This is common — states or networks involved in human trafficking, narcotics, or other illicit activities often overlap and cooperate when it suits them.
So, if the international community truly wants to end child soldier recruitment, it must hold state actors accountable across the board. Yes, conflicts in Sudan, the DRC, or other parts of Africa may seem separate from the Russia–Ukraine war. However, you often find Russian military contractors or affiliates operating in those regions, too, enabling child abductions or recruitment because they do not view such practices as unacceptable. They facilitate whatever aligns with their strategic interests. If we want to stop this globally, we have to pursue accountability for all perpetrators everywhere.
Jacobsen: Agreed. We have two more topics. I need to expand the second one because something new has come up. Satellite imagery reportedly reveals the total razing of a town in Gaza. If confirmed, this would suggest potential war crimes, and there are calls for an independent investigation and accountability for those responsible. Thoughts?
Tsukerman: It is essential to be clear: this is not to say that Israel does nothing wrong — they have an internal investigative process and have held individuals accountable, including imprisoning personnel for violations during this war and previous escalations. So, I do not doubt that there will be consequences internally, regardless of external pressure.
That said, I take many of these reports with a large grain of salt. First, because many of these satellite-based reports are made without verifiable on-the-ground evidence, satellite images show destruction. However, they do not show who caused it, under what circumstances, or what combat activities took place before or during the damage.
They do not have direct access to what is happening on the ground. Satellite images taken from high altitudes can be manipulated or misinterpreted, and they often fail to tell the whole story. The reality usually involves Hamas deliberately planting explosives and constructing tunnels beneath entire neighbourhoods, making those areas effectively impregnable to any conventional clearing operation.
Sometimes buildings are destroyed not because there was an intentional strike to flatten them but because a hidden mine or booby trap is triggered inadvertently, setting off a chain reaction that demolishes everything above it. The entire area is rigged to explode — that is a deliberate tactic. This, in itself, is a war crime under international law.
The fact that Hamas has used this tactic systematically — not only in this conflict but in previous ones — means that any statements or media they release must be viewed through that lens. This is how they operate; it is a core part of their command structure and defence strategy.
I have yet to hear anyone propose a viable alternative for neutralizing this tactic without causing large-scale destruction. If everything is booby-trapped, the only way to avoid blowing it up is either to let Hamas remain entrenched or to reach the explosives before they are triggered — which is extremely difficult. So when people claim war crimes have occurred, they should also present practical methods for clearing such areas without detonations. I am sure Israel, the United States, and other stakeholders in the region would welcome workable alternatives; however, I have not seen a single credible plan so far.
Jacobsen: The UN Secretary-General, António Guterres, has appealed for an immediate, unconditional ceasefire to prevent further civilian suffering amid the escalating hostilities between Israel and Iran. There was also — if I recall correctly — a related resolution calling for an unconditional ceasefire between Israel and Gaza. Do you have any thoughts on either of these?
Tsukerman: No objections — that is fine. In any realistic scenario, an unconditional ceasefire would not be a good thing. An unconditional ceasefire with Hamas would mean that the remaining hostages would stay in Hamas’s hands and that Hamas would remain in power, free to regroup and attack civilians again — not only Israeli civilians but also its people.
An unconditional ceasefire with Iran means the regime gets to continue its nuclear program unchecked. If anything, the Secretary-General should be calling for an unconditional end to Iran’s nuclear program, unconditional access for international atomic watchdogs, an unconditional halt to threats against sovereign states, and an unconditional end to the regime’s oppression of its citizens. If he issued those demands, that would have real legitimacy.
Calling for an unconditional ceasefire, however, preserves the regime in its current form, legitimizing the activities that led to this escalation in the first place. It effectively tells the villain of the story that they get to survive and come back to fight another day because civilian suffering supposedly justifies it. However, civilians suffered before the conflict, they suffered during it, and they will continue to suffer if Israel withdraws. At the same time, the same regime remains in power — because this is what illegitimate regimes do: they make their people suffer.
Unfortunately, this also means that if bad actors learn that causing enough civilian suffering guarantees international calls to leave them alone, then every bad actor in the world will likely follow the same strategy. That cannot be allowed to happen. There must be real accountability. In this case, that means, at the very least, the degradation of Iran’s military and nuclear capabilities so it cannot threaten its neighbours — not just Israel, but the entire region — or export weapons elsewhere.
Second, the regime should not continue to enjoy political legitimacy when it came to power through violence and has maintained power through violence for the past forty-six years.
Jacobsen: Irina, thank you so much, as always. I will see you next week.
Tsukerman: Thank you. Yes, that sounds good — good luck and safe travels!
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/07/01
“Population growth can exacerbate environmental degradation when it increases pressure on natural resources and generates more waste and emissions. Sustainable development requires policies that balance population trends with economic growth, environmental protection, and social equity.”
World Population Prospects 2022, UN DESA
“Rapid population growth can hinder economic development, especially when it outpaces the provision of essential services and job creation. A stable population supports long-term sustainability.”
World Development Report 2007
“Sustainable development is development that meets the needs of the present without compromising the ability of future generations to meet their own needs. Population growth must be addressed within that context.”
Our Common Future (1987), Brundtland Commission Report
The 2024 revision of the United Nations World Population Prospects (medium-variant series) describes 42 of the 193 UN member states, excluding the Holy See and the State of Palestine, as in absolute demographic decline. The number increases to 48 if micro-states and non-sovereign areas are included.
The 1980s saw two countries enter absolute decline: Hungary and Bulgaria. In the 1990s, 14 countries entered population regression: Albania (1990), Estonia (1990), Latvia (1990), Romania (1990), Armenia (1991), Bosnia and Herzegovina (1991), Croatia (1991), Lithuania (1991), Georgia (1992), Belarus (1993), Moldova (1993), Russia (1993), Ukraine (1993), and Serbia (1995).
Eight countries entered regression in the 2000s, slowing down the per-country rate: Barbados (2000), Dominica (2000), Saint Lucia (2000), Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (2000), North Macedonia (2001), Cuba (2006), Andorra (2008), Portugal (2008), and Japan (2008).
Ten countries entered population decline in the 2010s: Greece (2010), Montenegro (2011), Poland (2012), Grenada (2012), Saint Kitts and Nevis (2013), Italy (2014), Slovenia (2014), Trinidad and Tobago (2014), Mauritius (2019), and Tonga (2019).
The 2020s saw seven countries enter this same pattern so far: South Korea (2020), China (2021), Slovakia (2021), Monaco (2022), San Marino (2022), Uruguay (2022), and Seychelles (2023). The chronology is as follows, represented as a consistent bullet point series:
1980s
- Hungary (1980–maybe 1981-1982)
- Bulgaria (1989)
1990s
- Albania (1990)
- Estonia (1990)
- Latvia (1990)
- Romania (1990)
- Armenia (1991)
- Bosnia and Herzegovina (1991)
- Croatia (1991)
- Lithuania (1991)
- Georgia (1992)
- Belarus (1993)
- Moldova (1993)
- Russia (1993)
- Ukraine (1993)
- Serbia (1995)
2000s
- Barbados (2000)
- Dominica (2000)
- Saint Lucia (2000)
- Saint Vincent and the Grenadines (2000)
- North Macedonia (2001)
- Cuba (2006)
- Andorra (2008)
- Portugal (2008)
- Japan (2008)
2010s
- Greece (2010)
- Montenegro (2011)
- Poland (2012)
- Grenada (2012)
- Saint Kitts and Nevis (2013)
- Italy (2014)
- Slovenia (2014)
- Trinidad and Tobago (2014)
- Mauritius (2019)
- Tonga (2019)
2020s
- South Korea (2020)
- China (2021)
- Slovakia (2021)
- Monaco (2022)
- San Marino (2022)
- Uruguay (2022)
- Seychelles (2023)
151 out of 193 member states are not shrinking. Sixty-three have peaked, 42 are shrinking — many only recently, and the rest are growing. Which is to state, based on known data, the apparent conclusion faces us.
The United Nations’ World Population Prospects 2024 approximates a peak of 10.3 billion in the mid-2080s, the Institute for Health Metrics and Evaluation (IHME) in The Lancet estimated a peak of 9.73 billion in 2064, and the Wittgenstein Centre’s 2023 estimate is a peak of 10.13 billion in 2080.
This means 29 years on the earlier extreme up to 64 years on the later extreme until the peak human population. The reality: The likelihood sits somewhere between those antipodean projected extremes. Population decline, as an absolute global issue, will become urgent about two generations from now if population growth is simply the idea.
This is both a that and a why issue. If you argue that population should increase without a reason, then you ignore the most important question: What quality of life is desired for all human beings with the population? This becomes a valuable question for the constituents of global eudaimonia. (Only from the perspective of homo sapiens.)
Having population growth for the sake of more people seems narrow, to say the least. If the only other option is the nihilistic, suicidal decline of the species, then the false dichotomy takes on an international, species-wide caricature. Another option is sustainable population growth. Experts have proposed this.
Until space mining becomes practicable, easily accessible resources on Earth remain finite. Sustainable population growth provides the benefits of resource balance, economic resilience, higher quality of life, environmental protection, social equity, and climate adaptability.
The most significant issue facing humanity is anthropogenic climate change. Climate systems respond to physical inputs, not human governance failures or political boundaries. Growth for growth’s sake is uninformed and valueless. Regression for the desired decline of humanity can be seen as nihilistic, another valuelessness.
Sustainable growth harbours the non-polyannish universalist values of human rights, empiricism of science, and compassion of a humane consideration of every person, young and old. Now, with humanistic values, if we want sustainable growth, what works?
Fundamentally, until synthetic means of human gestation exist, which remain scientifically feasible while complex, universal concern and evidence depict one approximate half of humanity: women, and trans people, with relevant reproductive mechanics intact.
For those who want to have children and for those who want to support their free, uncoerced decision to have children, population dynamics tells us some things: equal parental leave, affordable childcare, flexible family-friendly workplaces, support for dual-earner families, reproductive autonomy and healthcare access, and shared domestic responsibilities.
Another social factor is valuing family and children. Some conservative and libertarian commentators have proposed this. That’s true. However, what better way to support this through funding, policy, and role alignment than by establishing a comprehensive program grounded in the reality of shared values—values that only appear to be superficially or paradoxically opposed?
However, children and families are highly personal and individual choices. Some people believe relationships are not for them. Children are not for them. Thus, the messaging should be informed, culturally appropriate, and targeted in an evidence-based manner to those who want either or both, then providing a culture and infrastructure environment in which the sustainable growth models can flourish, while targeting anthropogenic climate change and other problems.
A values-driven, evidence-based approach to population policy can foster a sustainable and worthwhile world in which people who want children are empowered to have them and humanity grows in balance with nature.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/30
Michael Ashley Schulman, CFA, Chief Investment Officer of Running Point Capital Advisors, offers expert insight into current global financial dynamics. Schulman offers timely insights into macroeconomic trends, US fiscal policy, and the global tech landscape. Schulman speaks with Scott Douglas Jacobsen about how oil price swings, tariffs, and ongoing geopolitical tensions are influencing global central bank agendas. Schulman explains how conflicts in Ukraine and the Middle East have driven up oil prices, complicating inflation forecasts as the Federal Reserve maintains a cautious policy amid persistent quantitative tightening. He discusses how a surprise Fed rate hike could shock markets, contrasts European easing with US strategy, and unpacks the new US Genius Act regulating stablecoins. He also explores whether Bitcoin now acts as a risk barometer rather than a haven. The interview was conducted on June 19. All sources are Reuters.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, oil, war, and tariffs — there is a shake-up in central bank agendas. The ECB, SNB, and BOE are facing uncertainty due to geopolitical tensions. Do you have any thoughts on oil price swings, trade disputes, inflation outlooks, and how these factors interact?
Michael Ashley Schulman: Yes, they are all combining into, I guess you could call it a confusing mix — like a batter bowl of issues. Politicians and central banks are trying to shape policy amid ongoing challenges, including the continuing Russia-Ukraine war, the renewed conflict in the Middle East between Israel and Iran, and the recent spike in oil prices, which have risen by about $10 to $15 a barrel.
The key question is whether these prices will stabilize at a level that is manageable or if they will continue to rise, potentially becoming unsustainable. Historically, whenever there is conflict in the Middle East, Brent crude prices rise — and if tensions ease, prices typically come back down.
Tariff policies are still evolving as well. Policymakers are working through how trade agreements with the US will unfold, which adds another layer of uncertainty to inflation forecasts.
As for central banks — as I mentioned earlier — in the US, equities have rebounded significantly since the downturn earlier this year, but the US dollar has not regained the same ground. It remains weaker than before, which has implications for other central banks.
A weaker dollar makes it easier for developed and emerging market central banks to lower interest rates because they do not have to maintain higher rates to support their currencies. Many emerging markets and even some developed economies hold debt denominated in US dollars, so a weaker dollar makes servicing that debt less expensive when converting from local currencies. I know that is technical, but that’s the gist of it.
Jacobsen: That makes sense. So, moving to the Fed — the Federal Reserve has kept interest rates unchanged and has signalled reduced odds of rate cuts in 2025 due to renewed inflation concerns. What are your thoughts on that?
Schulman: Yes, I have been telling our family office clients since December that there is no compelling reason for the Fed to cut rates aggressively at this time.
While many people hope for lower interest rates, there has been no urgent justification. Inflation has consistently stayed above the Fed’s 2% target — closer to 3% — and unemployment has remained relatively low. In May, the unemployment rate came in at about 4.2%, which remains healthy by historical standards.
So, with inflation elevated and the labour market still stable, the Fed does not feel pressured to cut rates quickly. They want to be cautious and avoid reigniting inflation.
That is a healthy unemployment rate, so the Fed does not need to lower interest rates to stimulate employment — and it does not want to because that could push inflation even higher. The economy is still performing relatively well despite the uncertainty surrounding tariffs and the challenges businesses face when planning imports, exports, and manufacturing in response to shifting tariff policies. Economic growth continues, and consumers remain committed to spending.
Back in December, if you looked at the FOMC dot plots and listened to many analysts, the consensus was that there could be four or five rate cuts this year. I was telling our clients: none. Now, here we are in June, halfway through the year, and people are revising those forecasts down to one or two cuts. I still do not see a strong reason for the Fed to cut rates at this point.
We could see what I like to call a “Thanos snap” — where the market’s expectation for cuts vanishes. Especially now, with oil prices spiking: every $10 increase in oil prices generally adds about 0.2% to 0.5% to headline inflation, depending on the model. Some analyses estimate up to 1.44%, but a reasonable average is about half a percent for every $10 increase in crude.
At the same time, that same $10 increase typically shaves about 0.4% off GDP growth because higher energy prices slow economic activity. So central banks — especially the Fed — are watching oil prices, geopolitical risks, and tariff developments very closely. However, there is no clear catalyst or urgency to lower rates at this time. You cut rates when you have to, so the Fed wants to maintain that “firepower” for when it is needed.
Additionally, something often overlooked is that we are still in an environment of quantitative tightening. During the pandemic, we experienced significant quantitative easing; however, now the Fed is allowing approximately $60 billion in Treasuries to roll off its balance sheet each month. People are aware of this, but they often overlook it because it has been happening quietly for some time.
Letting $60 billion a month in Treasuries runoff has a greater impact on financial conditions than a standard 25-basis-point rate move — yet it gets far less attention.
Moreover, here is something very few people are considering: What if the Fed raised rates? I am not saying this will happen — but markets tend to be surprised by what they least expect. If oil prices jumped another $10 or $20, driving inflation up again, the Fed could, in theory, feel pressure to hike rates instead of cut them.
If that happened — rising oil prices and a surprise rate hike — it would effectively slam the brakes on the economy. Again, I am not predicting this, but it is important to consider it because no one is prepared for such a scenario. The market usually reacts most strongly to the surprises that almost no one expects.
Jacobsen: Hypothetically, if that did happen — if the Fed did raise rates — what would you expect?
Schulman: Yes — if that unexpected scenario played out and the Fed raised rates while oil prices were rising, it would tighten financial conditions sharply. It could drive growth and trigger market volatility. However, that is purely hypothetical again.
It would slam the brakes on the economy because higher rates would immediately drive down capital expenditures, make business borrowing more expensive, and make real estate more costly and harder to finance. Consumers would also feel the shock.
So, what would push the Fed to do that? It likely takes a sharp spike in inflation. Chair Powell is likely very conscious of his legacy at this moment. He is expected to step down in May 2026. Although the President cannot remove him sooner, it is likely that if President Trump is in office at that point, he will replace Powell as soon as his term as Fed Chair ends. So, Powell has about eleven more months to cement his legacy.
The one thing that could damage that legacy is if inflation were to come roaring back. He is more concerned about preventing a resurgence of inflation than almost anything else, so he would be willing to take decisive action to keep it under control.
Jacobsen: Meanwhile, the Norwegian central bank and other European central banks are easing policy, citing weakening inflation, which diverges from the Fed’s current stance. What are your thoughts on that?
Schulman: Yes — as I mentioned earlier, a lot of central banks around the world have been easing. The European Central Bank, the Bank of England, and many emerging market central banks in Asia and Latin America have had room to cut rates because inflation has been declining for them.
The weaker US dollar has given them even more flexibility, as they no longer have to worry as much about servicing dollar-denominated debt.
Now, looking specifically at Northern Europe and Norway, the European stock markets are performing reasonably well; however, the broader economy remains sluggish. Germany, for example, is emerging from what appears to have been a mild recession, and that recovery is gradual.
Furthermore, Europe now needs to increase its defence spending significantly. Many countries are pledging to allocate up to 5% of their budgets to defence, and that spending needs to be financed somehow.
One of the more straightforward ways to support this is to lower interest rates. Doing so makes it easier for companies to increase capital expenditures and manufacturing capacity to support defence initiatives. At the same time, governments will likely need to issue more debt to cover these expenses. Central banks may be coordinating with governments by easing policy to allow for more debt issuance at manageable costs, thereby supporting the required spending on defence.
Jacobsen: Switching gears — the stablecoin market has been making headlines. The US Senate passed legislation to regulate stablecoin market caps — the so-called Genius Act. Can you share your thoughts?
Schulman: Yes, the Genius Act has been a big topic lately. Many in the market had been anticipating it for some time, and its passage is part of what has fueled the recent surge in Bitcoin and other cryptocurrencies, even though stablecoins are a separate category.
Circle, for example, just went public with its IPO, and that offering has performed very well so far. The stablecoin market itself is peaking in some ways — with increased scrutiny and regulation now coming into force, which aims to provide clearer guardrails for market capitalization and reserve requirements.
We can look up the exact numbers, but the broader point is that regulatory clarity, as provided by the Genius Act, encourages both investors and institutions to engage more confidently with the stablecoin ecosystem.
Stablecoins are a license to print money. You take in other people’s dollars, issue them a digital currency pegged to those dollars, and then you get to invest those dollars — often in highly liquid, low-risk assets like US Treasuries that are currently yielding about 4%. So, you are effectively earning 4% on billions of dollars in deposits. It is a lucrative business model.
The new regulations have now come into effect — people were expecting them, and yes, there is excitement around this space. What we are still waiting to see, however, are broader, real-world applications of stablecoins. Right now, most stablecoins are primarily used to fund other crypto trades — that is their dominant utility at the moment.
The big question is: Where else can stablecoins add value? It is interesting — crypto originally emerged with the ethos of decentralization, bypassing centralized authorities. However, a decade or so later, the main practical use case that has gained traction is centralized: central bank digital currencies or stablecoins pegged to traditional fiat currencies distributed by large, regulated entities like Coinbase. It is pretty ironic — we call it “decentralization.”
So, yes, it is contradictory. The whole point was to “stick it to the man,” but the US dollar fundamentally backs stablecoins — so if the dollar loses value, the stablecoin loses value in lockstep. It is that simple.
What the market truly wants is for stablecoins to find applications beyond simply facilitating cryptocurrency trades. For example, could stablecoins be used more broadly for cross-border money transfers or international remittances? Eventually, could people hold stablecoins like a digital bank account, earn some interest, and then use them directly for everyday commerce — to buy a car, a refrigerator, or even a house?
The big question then becomes: Does that model threaten traditional credit card companies like Visa and Mastercard, or do Visa and Mastercard adopt stablecoin rails and strengthen their position even further? Realistically, there is a higher chance of the latter because those companies already have deeply embedded global payment networks. However, we will see how it plays out.
Jacobsen: Oil demand concerns and market jitters — recent developments in the Middle East briefly boosted oil prices by nearly 3%, and broader investor demand for safe-haven assets has been rising. Any thoughts on this?
Schulman: Yes — that is typical market behaviour. Whenever there is a geopolitical conflict or war, risk assets typically decline at least temporarily, while safe-haven assets, such as gold, Treasury bonds, or the US dollar, often experience inflows.
For example, when the US invaded Iraq years ago, the initial reaction in equity markets was for stocks to drop and safe-haven assets to rally. These short-term swings often happen immediately after conflict escalates, before the market reassesses the longer-term economic impact.
However, quickly, people tend to realize that most wars are geographically distant from core S&P 500 companies and operations, so equities often rally back after an initial sell-off. Unless a conflict escalates dramatically — for example, a nuclear event — there is usually room for risk assets to rebound and for investors to “buy the dip” if there is one.
There is some speculation that the US could deploy MOPs — Massive Ordnance Penetrators, or “bunker buster” bombs — against Iranian facilities. That remains to be seen. If such an attack were to happen, you would likely see a near-term market sell-off driven by fears of broader conflict.
However, that could become a buying opportunity because, in my view, markets would treat it as a short-term geopolitical risk. In contrast, the longer-term outlook for risk assets could remain positive.
It is also interesting to watch the narrative around so-called safe-haven assets. Bitcoin was initially promoted as an alternative safe-haven asset, but in practice, it tends to move in sync with risk appetite rather than against it. So, I have started treating Bitcoin as a risk barometer: if Bitcoin rallies overnight, it can be a good sign that equity markets may open strong the next day.
Jacobsen: Last couple of quick ones — the Nigerian Navy has reportedly stepped up anti-oil theft operations, and Russian energy policy is impacting Hungarian gas imports. Do you have any thoughts on those?
Schulman: I should know more about those specifics, but I will have to get back to you on the Russian-Hungarian gas issue.
Jacobsen: Thank you — I appreciate your time and insights today. I appreciate it.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/30
Pat Merryweather-Arges, Executive Director of Project Patient Care and former Rotary International Board Vice President. They explore critical issues in U.S. healthcare, including deprescribing, sepsis awareness, health inequities, and implicit bias. Janice Dru-Bennett is a business development and marketing leader associated with Orange Biomed, a South Korean health-tech startup advancing rapid A1C testing for diabetes care. She also leads initiatives at BDMT Global, focused on strategic partnerships and digital health expansion in underserved communities. Merryweather-Arges emphasizes patient-centred innovation, like Orange Biomed’s OBM rapid A1c test, and the importance of trust, especially in underserved communities. Drawing from her leadership and personal experience, she advocates for relational care, bidirectional communication, and systemic reform to reduce harm and elevate patient voices. The discussion also touches on physician burnout, technology’s role, and the transformative power of empathy in care.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are joined by Pat Merryweather-Arges. She is a seasoned healthcare leader and humanitarian with over three decades of experience in healthcare quality improvement, nonprofit leadership, and global service. She is the Executive Director of Project Patient Care (PPC), a nonprofit organization dedicated to improving healthcare quality, safety, and equity by engaging patients, families, caregivers, and healthcare professionals in collaborative initiatives.
Her work emphasizes national healthcare transformation and authentic patient engagement across all care settings. Pat has made significant contributions within the Rotary community, having served as Rotary International Director (2022–2024) and Vice President (2023–2024). She currently chairs the Water, Sanitation, and Hygiene Rotary Action Group (2024–2025) and sits on the Mental Health Rotary Action Group Board (2024–2026). Additionally, she serves on the board of the International Rotary Fellowship of Healthcare Professionals. She has held various leadership roles in Rotary District 6450, including District Governor.
Her broader leadership includes international humanitarian work focused on clean water, healthcare, sanitation, women’s empowerment, and peacebuilding in India, Jordan, Haiti, Kenya, and others. This aligns closely with the 25th anniversary of UN Security Council Resolution 1325, which highlights the role of women in peace and security—a cause she actively supports.
Pat Merryweather-Arges: I have also been involved with projects in Ukraine, primarily virtually. However, we have undertaken significant initiatives to support Ukrainian healthcare and hosted delegations in the United States.
Jacobsen: Thank you for your service. These conversations can be significant, especially when you are on a call with someone in Kyiv and there are Wi-Fi glitches. It becomes more than just a tech issue—it is a reminder of the situation.
Merryweather-Arges: Yes, especially at midnight when they dial in for critical discussions from cities under stress. It is genuine.
Jacobsen: What prompted Orange Biomed to sponsor this special edition of the Boston Live Webinar Series, and how does it align with its mission?
Dru-Bennett: That is a great question. Orange Biomed is a healthcare technology company focused on advancing community engagement and bridging the gap between healthcare leaders and the public, particularly for those at higher risk for chronic diseases. Their flagship product, the OBM rapid A1c, is the world’s first pocket-sized, microfluidic-based A1C analysis device, designed to make diabetes monitoring more accessible, accurate, and user-friendly.
Sponsoring this webinar is part of their larger effort to promote early detection, patient empowerment, and healthcare innovation. This event, and others to come, aim to educate the general public, engage underrepresented communities, and support early intervention to reduce long-term health risks.
Merryweather-Arges: I recently participated in a panel discussion at the Deprescribing Research Group at the American Geriatrics Society annual meeting. We focused on the importance of deprescribing—a crucial topic when addressing the needs of vulnerable and older populations. Despite being vocal about their healthcare challenges, these groups often lack the support they need. Providing them with accessible, evidence-based technology can significantly impact their outcomes.
So, the only way to effectively deprescribe is to understand the pattern—when the prescribing began, whether the medications are still necessary, and whether the patient is improving. That is why I believe the A1C tool discussed here will be a real change agent.
Jacobsen: How much faster is the OBM rapid A1c in measurement compared to prior tools, and how much more accurate is it?
Merryweather-Arges: In terms of speed, the OBM rapid A1c delivers results in just a few minutes. It is significantly faster than traditional at-home A1C tests that must be mailed to a lab, which can take several days or weeks if mailing delays occur. Also, current at-home tests that do not require lab submission tend to be less accurate. The OBM rapid A1c closes that gap. While the time difference may be only a few minutes compared to some home tests, the key benefit is the increased accuracy, achieving lab-level results. That is what makes this tool a significant advancement.
Jacobsen: Regarding patient care, how does this device improve outcomes?
Merryweather-Arges: For many patients, even a few minutes can feel like a long time, but it is not just about speed. The real advantage is that you can do the test at home. By the time someone gets an appointment at a clinic and then waits for lab results, it could take days. This device gives people immediate results, allowing them to make timely decisions about their health.
Also, many people do not want to be on medication if they can avoid it. If a tool like this can help them see positive changes in real time, based on lifestyle adjustments, it can encourage healthier habits. Traditionally, A1C tests are done every six months, or every three months if advised by doctors. However, with this, you do not have to wait to visit the doctor and can test your status anywhere. If you are making progress, you can track it sooner, and in some cases, that could support deprescribing.
The panel I was on at the American Geriatrics Society meeting focused on deprescribing. As people age, they are often placed on multiple medications—what we call polypharmacy. I have worked on projects where patients were on a minimum of 13 medications. In some cases, we saw individuals on as many as 17.
Jacobsen: That sounds overwhelming—almost Ray Kurzweil levels of supplementation.
Merryweather-Arges: [Laughing] Yes, it is a lot. However, seriously, the cost can be enormous, and more importantly, being on that many medications increases the risk of adverse drug interactions. We found that by working with prescribing physicians and pharmacists and conducting regular health assessments, many patients could be reduced to five or eight medications, significantly improving their quality of life.
What often happens is that a medication is prescribed that contraindicates another condition. It can become a back-and-forth cycle. However, when we reduce the number of drugs, we often see improvement in the health and overall well-being of the patient. So anytime we can deliver healthcare solutions more quickly and directly to patients at home, they will appreciate it. Many patients genuinely want to be in control of their health. That is why having at-home testing is so important, especially when it is accurate.
Jacobsen: Do people become more concerned with controlling their health and well-being as they age or transition into retirement? Is that sense of autonomy more prominent?
Merryweather-Arges: It starts earlier, especially in vulnerable populations. Instead of spending time helping people change their lifestyles or providing coaching and counselling on healthier approaches, it is often easier to prescribe a medication, a “one-and-done” solution.
But people change. They change their health plans. They change their primary care physicians. Many transitions happen. Moreover, people of all ages and communities want to be in control of their lives. It is not just older populations who feel this way. Our challenge is that the technology, services, and support systems are unavailable in many vulnerable communities.
I chair the board of a hospital in Englewood, one of the most underserved communities in Chicago. It is often ranked at the top in terms of poverty and violence. According to a New York Times report, the average life expectancy in Englewood is just 62 years.
It shocked even the Governor of Illinois, who was so disturbed by the data that he awarded us a Healthcare Transformation Grant. We are now working to create a Center for Better Aging in Englewood to change the community’s cultural and health trajectory. Now compare that 62-year life expectancy with the Gold Coast area of Chicago, which is 92 years. That is a 30-year gap. Moreover, that disparity is unacceptable.
That is why empowering people to manage their health at home is so critical. Englewood is a healthcare workforce shortage area and a pharmacy desert, meaning there are few healthcare workers and almost no pharmacies nearby. So, tools like at-home testing and access to telehealth for coaching and consultation can make a real difference.
Jacobsen: One physician I spoke with—formerly in the States and now practicing in Canada—noted a growing trend in the U.S. of patients over-attributing blame to doctors. When things do not go exactly as hoped, the assumption is often that the physician was at fault, when medicine operates within a range of probabilities and uncertainty. Do you think this dynamic affects patient-physician relationships, especially in preventive care?
Merryweather-Arges: There is a significant buzz around the idea of “hear my story.” Patients want their experiences understood. However, physicians are under enormous pressure—they are pressed for time, jumping from one patient to the next, and listening to the patient becomes challenging, even though it is essential.
Physicians often do not fully hear what the patient is trying to communicate, which is a big part of the challenge. There is a movement in healthcare called “What Matters Most” for older adults. It centers around asking: What matters most to you right now? What can you control, and what can you not?
This personalized care approach is crucial, so AI can only play a limited role. Physicians sometimes miss subtle but critical aspects of a patient’s story. Studies suggest that patients are not fully heard about 10% of the time. So, I would not frame this as an “us versus them” situation between patients and physicians. Instead, we need collaborative relationships.
There is a tool called Teach-Back. It is primarily used when a physician or pharmacist prescribes medication. They explain the drug, its purpose, dosage, and timing and then ask the patient to repeat that information to ensure understanding.
However, I believe in bidirectional Teach-Back. That means the patient shares their symptoms, goals, and what they think they can achieve. The physician then repeats that back and builds a care plan accordingly. In other words, both parties need to be heard. The healthcare system is under much strain right now, and better communication is part of the solution, not blame.
I spoke with the second-in-command of Ireland’s national health service—she is just below the Minister of Health. What struck me was that in Ireland, the highest-paid physicians are geriatricians.
Jacobsen: That is surprising.
Merryweather-Arges: Yes! It is. However, their rationale is that geriatricians make a significant impact: They help control costs, listen carefully to patients, and get people the care they need. It is a brilliant, patient-centered model. Honestly, I said at the time, “We’re probably going to lose our geriatricians to Ireland—the contrast was that stark.” In the U.S., reimbursement for primary care, geriatrics, and pediatrics is typically much lower than for specialists. That is part of why our system tends to lean toward specialty care—the payment structures incentivize it. We are not Canada and do not have universal access to care.
Jacobsen: No, access remains a huge issue. Even in Canada, though, the wait times are getting long. That is a whole conversation in itself. We could spend an entire session on that. Moreover, we’re also seeing political shakeups—Jagmeet Singh is gone. From what I’ve heard, he lost his seat. Pierre had been campaigning for two or three years and lost to someone who had only been running for a few months. That’s quite a shift. That’s how offended Canadians were. I mean—I’ve never seen Canadians like this. It was wild.
Merryweather-Arges: [Laughing] Anyone from the U.S. witnessing it was stunned. Honestly, it was disappointing—some even said disgusting.
Jacobsen: Canadians were so offended that they probably went out and bought two Tim’s double-doubles in the morning to support local businesses. Canadians suddenly became nationally proud—they became American for a moment! And the Americans? They started apologizing like Canadians. It was adorable.
Merryweather-Arges: [Laughing] Yes, it was.
Jacobsen: Let’s discuss it since we focus primarily on patient care. You mentioned bidirectional communication. There is a knowledge gap between experts, like physicians, and patients. But even among physicians, there’s a range of training and communication styles. They’re credentialed professionals and licensed. So, how do you maintain respect for their expertise while ensuring patients feel heard?
Merryweather-Arges: That’s an excellent question. During COVID, there was a rebalancing—almost a backlash—against healthcare systems. At times, it got a bit ugly. But I do not think we’re in that place anymore. It is not that physicians are being disrespected. It is more than patients want their voices heard.
We know medical errors happen, and Canada has addressed this, too, not just in the U.S. They’ve even established commissions to examine them. And yes, there were some jokes—”too many Timbits,” as someone said—but the issue is serious.
Most medical errors are due to communication, or rather, the lack of it. That is where the problem lies. The system needs to foster environments where collaborative listening is the norm. That benefits everyone—patients and providers alike.
Communication—within the organization, between healthcare professionals, and in discussions with patients, their families, and caregivers—offers a vast opportunity for improvement.
Do you know what a nosocomial infection is?
Jacobsen: No.
Merryweather-Arges: A nosocomial infection is a healthcare-acquired infection. For years, physicians would say, “Oh, you have a nosocomial infection,” and that often came with a very bleak prognosis. In truth, many infections acquired in hospitals are treatable, but the key is early identification. It makes a real difference. Take sepsis, for example—I am sure you have heard of it. Sepsis is a critical global issue. In the United States, about a third of patients who die in hospitals die due to sepsis. That is, an infection always triggers sepsis, whether it originates in the hospital, at home, or is a continuation of an existing infection being treated.
Here is where the bidirectional aspect comes in. Sometimes, a patient is discharged from the hospital with an underlying or emerging infection. By policy, they are supposed to receive clear instructions before discharge about signs and symptoms of sepsis and guidance to seek help immediately if they notice any. But sometimes, that communication fails. The patient may wait at home, be unsure, and reach the emergency department too late. That is why most ERS are now on sepsis alert protocols. If a patient arrives early and treatment protocols—known as sepsis bundles—are initiated immediately, they can often be saved.
But if the symptoms are missed or the protocols are not followed correctly, the risk of death increases dramatically. And yes, hospitals are now publicly reporting on whether or not they have these sepsis bundles in place and how consistently they use them. So, it is a two-way street. Healthcare is a partnership between the system and the patient. I worked on a project funded by a PCORI award, the Patient-Centered Outcomes Research Institute. This nonprofit organization, funded by nationwide health plans, supports research on quality and safety improvements in U.S. healthcare.
Our project was called Patients as Partners in Healthcare Research. Over two years, I worked with about 20 patients referred through national organizations representing conditions like diabetes and Lyme disease. I gathered 300 clinical researchers, and zero patients got up and shared their stories, each in under two minutes. Their messages were powerful. Many began with “What if…”
- What if the physician had heard me?
- What if they had acted on my symptoms?
- What if they had not made assumptions about my diagnosis?
It always came back to listening. These were not angry stories. They were thoughtful reflections on how miscommunication or bias led to avoidable harm. If we shift from blame to partnership, we could transform healthcare. There was one woman I’ll never forget—young, African American. She was suffering from excruciating headaches. She returned to the doctor, saying, “None of this is working.” And instead of taking her concerns seriously, he said, “I think I know what’s wrong—you have anger management issues.” He said that because she was visibly upset—understandably so. So what did he do? He sent her to anger management classes.
Jacobsen: That’s gaslighting.
Merryweather-Arges: Exactly. Then—she had a massive stroke. She had not been adequately tested. No imaging. No follow-up. Nothing. Sometimes, assumptions are made too quickly, especially when someone is of a different age, race, or ethnicity. Another case involved a young athlete from Penn State—a top performer. He went in complaining of severe anxiety and a range of symptoms he could not explain.
But the physicians dismissed it. They said, “Well, the playoffs are coming up—you’re probably just nervous about that.” It went on like that for a while. He knew something was wrong. But again, no one was listening. Eventually, it turned out he had severe hypertension, so bad that his kidneys failed. He ended up on dialysis and later required a kidney transplant. Fortunately, an alumnus donated a kidney. But he was a college athlete, in peak physical condition, and all of this could have been avoided.
These are the types of stories we hear over and over. We use them as teaching moments so people understand that listening is a two-way street, and so is responding. This is not about blame. It is about asking, “How do we fix the system so people are heard—and responded to—in a timely, compassionate, and evidence-based way?”
Jacobsen: Some of these large language models, like GPT, could be used with care in this space. If you start a chat with one of these tools, it starts from a blank slate. But if you build a specialized layer on top of it—something explicitly trained for healthcare applications—you could input objective symptoms and histories. Then you would get a sort of “dry read”—an analysis without human bias, potentially offering a second opinion or flagging things that a physician might overlook because of prior assumptions.
Merryweather-Arges: And that kind of tool could be helpful. I think you’re right to point out implicit bias—that was at the core of the case with the woman who repeatedly went to the doctor with severe headaches. No one tested her. There was an implicit assumption that her symptoms were not severe.
Jacobsen: That’s the danger. Anthony Greenwald and Mahzarin Banaji pioneered implicit bias research. Before becoming a journalist, I had dinner with Anthony once while studying psychology earlier in my career. I do not know if that counts for anything, but it sparked my interest in the field.
I also recall that he and Banaji later acknowledged some overreach in how their work was interpreted and applied. I always try to be cautious about biases and over-attribution of supposed bias, particularly when using individual case studies to conclude population-wide dynamics.
Merryweather-Arges: I understand that completely. But when I send you the YouTube link, you will see that this issue is more common than people think. Errors often stem from a lack of listening and recognition—not just bias but inattention to what patients are trying to communicate. AI could be beneficial, especially in bridging those listening gaps. What we hear as providers may not be what the patient is trying to say.
Jacobsen: While most current AI systems are language-based and not visual like facial recognition tools, it’s worth noting that visual datasets have been shown to carry bias. So I do wonder—could patterns of speech, particularly those tied to subcultures or regional dialects, introduce a similar risk of misinterpretation? I had not thoroughly thought that through, but you’re right. Those biases could surface in speech-based AI models, too.
Merryweather-Arges: Let me give you a personal example. I had a pretty severe case of skin cancer. It was extensive—I had multiple surgeries all on the same day, in different areas. My primary physician, whom I adore, referred me to a specialist.
Now, this specialist had been in surgery for seven hours. He’s a plastic surgeon, and he was clearly exhausted when he came to me. He said something, “Hasn’t someone else handled this?” And I thought, “Oh no, I’m scared.” His tone was off, and I was nervous.
Then I asked, “Are you from South Korea?” He said yes. I told him, “I was there recently for Rotary.” And he said, “My father’s a Rotarian.” And that changed everything. We connected. But here’s the larger point: building trust in healthcare is arduous when a patient only sees someone for a few minutes. That’s why I always say—if you want to influence health behaviour, encourage lifestyle changes, or deprescribe medications—go through the trusted messengers. These can be community organizations, faith-based groups, or other culturally embedded institutions. That was my message at the American Geriatrics Society meeting, too. Start with trust to recruit people into health programs or studies.
I asked, “How did you co-design these programs? How did you co-create them?” Well, it turned out that they never included patients in the design process. So once again, they missed the language and the experience of what it means to live through the healthcare system as a patient. Then they said, “Well, we put out a call—we included it in newsletters.”And I asked, “Did you partner with any community organizations that patients trust?” Because if you work with trusted organizations in the community, patients are much more likely to participate.
That’s why establishing trust in one or two minutes is nearly impossible. I do it when I can, because I want to understand the background of the person in front of me. I want to relate to them and form a real connection. But that is hard in healthcare, when you only get five minutes with a clinician, and they’re already thinking about the next patient. And think about this—patients wait. Especially chronic care patients. Many build their entire month around a single medical appointment. And that is why we have to meet both patients where they are and physicians where they are. Not all physicians are the same.
Jacobsen: What’s the most important thing patients remember about their relationship with physicians, and vice versa?
Merryweather-Arges: Preparation is key for patients, especially those with chronic conditions. Many do prepare already—they think about the visit for weeks. I recommend they write down their conditions, document their symptoms, and prepare specific questions. If their clinic has an online portal, they can submit questions beforehand. That gives physicians a chance to review and prepare more thoughtfully. Physicians begin by examining the patient’s chart on a computer or a printout posted outside the exam room for a routine visit. This tells them what to expect.
It is different in the hospital for routine visit settings. Patients are more vulnerable, less likely to feel well, and often need a caregiver present. Physicians—especially specialists—might be in and out quickly. However, primary care physicians spend more time with their patients in that relationship. It is the same with pediatricians and geriatricians.
For specialists, it is more transactional—they’re focused on the intervention they provided and whether it worked. The relationship aspect is less emphasized. Part of the problem, I always say, is that medical training doesn’t assess communication skills. I have family members who are physicians. When they entered the profession, they were evaluated based on their exam scores, not their bedside manner.
That is why some physicians struggle with communication—it is not always a skill that gets developed. Fortunately, initiatives are trying to change that. One example is the Kern National Network for Flourishing in Medicine at the Medical College of Wisconsin. Their medical school has programs designed to improve physician communication and empathy while encouraging healthcare facilities to better support physicians.
Because let’s be honest—physician suicide remains a crisis. The rate of physicians dying by suicide is higher than the general population, and much of that is tied to stress, burnout, and emotional overload. Sometimes it takes something personal to understand the stakes. My father died from a medical error—this was almost forty years ago. He was a leukemia patient and had been enrolled in a clinical trial. After spending some time in the hospital, he was sent home, but had to return for additional testing.
They needed to do a liver biopsy, because chemotherapy often lodges in the liver. But no one performed a coagulation test beforehand. At that time, there were no electronic health records. Everyone just assumed it had been done.
He bled to death.
The nurses who had been with him, some for over sixty consecutive days, named him, knew him, knew my mother, knew our family. They cried with us. It wasn’t just a procedural failure—it was deeply human.
His primary care physician, who wasn’t his oncologist, used to visit him regularly. They were both World War II veterans, and they talked about the war and sports late into the night. I would see them and find them deep in conversation. When physicians develop relationships with their patients, a loss like that affects everyone—nurses, doctors, and staff. It is not just the family that grieves.
So when people say physicians don’t care, I struggle with that. They put their lives on the line. They sacrifice years of study and endless work hours to care for others. And yes, sometimes patients arrive in a bad mood, in pain, or emotionally overwhelmed. It often takes a nurse, a physician assistant, or another team member to de-escalate the situation.
So when people say, “Oh, they’re attacking the doctor,” it is usually not an attack. It is an expression of desperation. People are hurting and want someone to help them—someone to offer something close to magic.
Jacobsen: Patricia, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate it. It was terrific to meet you.
Merryweather-Arges: Good to meet you too. And best of luck with your work.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/29
Do you ever see a puppy stare at the front door,
at the top of the stairs, awaiting a parent?
Do you ever wish for something to happen,
randomly on a walk, unrelated to the moment?
The puppy will wait,
for hours.
Some prayer is a wish-to-happen.
When we call for the dead,
it’s not for hours,
but a lifetime.
We are puppies,
and we walk down the steps through life to that,
damn door.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/28
Jeff Sebo is an Associate Professor at NYU, directing centers related to AI, animals, and the environment, and authoring works related to mind, ethics, and policy. Sebo explores the ethical and legal implications of attributing personhood to AI systems. The dialogue begins with Blake Lemoine’s controversial claims about LaMDA’s sentience, then examines how scientific benchmarks, moral theories, and public policy intersect. Sebo emphasizes the importance of evaluating AI systems based on traits like perception, self-awareness, and decision-making. Drawing parallels with animal rights progress, he argues for proactive, nuanced consideration of AI welfare before norms become entrenched. The discussion touches on public backlash, international governance, and the future role of academic influence in shaping policy.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Not long ago, a man made headlines when he declared, “Oh my God, this LLM is conscious. I have to save it.” He was eventually fired, although it is unclear how promptly this occurred.
The benchmarks—and expectations—for large language models (LLMs) have grown significantly, particularly regarding their capabilities and integration into multimodal systems, including visual interfaces. How, then, has the conversation around the personhood of AI evolved in light of these developments?
Jeff Sebo: The incident you are referring to occurred in 2022. A Google engineer named Blake Lemoine publicly stated that Google’s language model, LaMDA (Language Model for Dialogue Applications), had become sentient. He claimed LaMDA was capable of experiencing emotions like joy and fear and thus deserved moral consideration.
Lemoine was placed on administrative leave after publishing transcripts of his conversations with LaMDA without company authorization, and in July 2022, Google terminated his employment. The company stated that his dismissal was due to breaches of confidentiality, not because of his belief in the model’s sentience.
Since then, the conversation around artificial consciousness and moral standing has evolved. Language models have become more advanced and integrated across multiple modalities, including visual and auditory perception. At the same time, people have had more opportunity to reflect on the ethical implications of AI systems becoming more human-like.
You used the term personhood, which is legally defined as the capacity of an entity to have rights or duties that reflect their capacities and interests. If AI systems were sentient, that would raise the question of whether they qualify as persons—entities that deserve at least some moral or legal protection based on their capacities, interests, and potential for well-being.
So yes, there have been meaningful changes since 2022. Capabilities have increased, and the discourse has matured. More people are open to the possibility that consciousness—and, therefore, moral status—could emerge in systems with very different physical structures, materials, and origins than biological organisms.
That said, AI consciousness might not be here yet. A 2023 report by Patrick Butlin, Robert Long, and others evaluated existing AI systems using criteria from leading scientific theories of consciousness, including the Global Workspace Theory and Integrated Information Theory. They found that present-day systems do not yet possess most of these features.
However, the report found no significant technical barriers to the creation of AI systems that possess these features in the future, perhaps even the near future. This includes traits like embodiment, perception, learning, memory, attention, self-awareness, and the kind of global workspace architecture that could support integrated cognition.
The report supports the idea that current systems are not conscious, but that future systems could be. Companies and governments are racing toward developing artificial general intelligence, and many of the same computational and architectural features associated with intelligence are also associated with consciousness, even though intelligence and consciousness differ.
Jacobsen: When you’re looking at the various models of consciousness and personhood—and using the range of benchmarks that AI systems are evaluated against—which ones would be most indicative of qualifying for personhood, based on that 2023 review?
Sebo: That depends on your views about ethics and science, which are both areas of active disagreement and uncertainty. Part of the project has been to figure out how to make thoughtful probability estimates and implement reasonable precautionary policies despite the ongoing uncertainty about the relevant values and facts.
On the ethics side, people disagree about what kinds of properties or relations are required for moral status. For example, some people believe that moral status requires sentience — the capacity for happiness, suffering, and other experiences with a positive or negative valence.
Other people believe that consciousness is enough, even without sentience. If you can have subjective experiences of any kind, then you deserve moral consideration even if your experiences lack a positive or negative emotional valence.
Still others believe that robust agency is enough, even without consciousness. If you can set and pursue your own goals, based on cognitive states that function like beliefs and desires, then you deserve moral consideration even if you lack subjective experiences of any kind.
Then, on the science side, people also disagree about what kinds of systems can realize those capacities. For example, some people believe that consciousness requires a cognitive system with more or less the same structures, functions, and even materials—such as carbon-based neurons—that we find in human, mammalian, or avian brains.
Other people believe that consciousness can exist in any cognitive system with physical embodiment and advanced and integrated capacities for perception, attention, learning, memory, self-awareness, flexible decision-making, and other such capacities — even if they happen to take different structures or be made out of different materials.
Still others believe that consciousness can exist in even simpler cognitive systems, such as any system with a basic ability to process information or represent objects in its environment—even in the absence of a physical body or other, more sophisticated forms of cognition and behavior.
Given the uncertainty, part of the work involves combining different live theories and determining how much weight or credence we should assign each one.
From there, we identify behavioral and architectural features that correspond to sentience, consciousness, and robust agency across a wide range of leading scientific theories.
The idea is that if we can identify traits associated with moral status across many theoretical frameworks, we can be more confident that those traits are legitimate markers—real indicators—and that they meaningfully raise the probability that a system is morally significant.
Jacobsen: What is a somewhat obscure—not widely held, obviously—but still possible theory of consciousness or personhood that could apply to some of these systems?
Sebo: There are indeed many theories of consciousness. Some are quite demanding, while others are quite undemanding. I can give you one example of each.
A demanding theory would be a higher-order thought theory of consciousness. This view holds that to be conscious, a system must not only be capable of having thoughts, but also be capable of having thoughts about thoughts—all in the form of propositional language. For example, the system would have to be able to think, “I believe that death is bad and I want to avoid it.”
Many humans have the capacity for higher-order thought, but not all humans have this capacity, and we all lack it during some stages of life. There is also wide agreement that most if not all nonhuman animals lack this capacity. So, this theory sets a relatively high bar. Still, some AI systems might begin exhibiting this kind of higher-order thought soon.
On the other end of the spectrum is a much less demanding theory: panpsychism. According to panpsychism, consciousness is a fundamental property of all matter, as well as many material compositions. This view holds that even particles may have minimal experiences.
What kinds of compositions can be conscious, according to panpsychism? We know that some configurations of matter—such as human brains—can be conscious. The question then becomes whether other kinds of carbon-based or silicon-based brains can be conscious too.
As you can see, there is a wide spectrum of possibilities. If higher-order and panpsychist theories are closer to the extremes, I tend to focus on theories that are closer to the middle. However, I think that all of these theories should be considered with an open mind.
Now, regarding personhood, there are likewise many theories about what it takes to qualify as a legal person. One view we can set aside is the speciesist position—that you must be a member of the species Homo sapiens to count as a legal person. We may associate humanity with legal personhood, but this view is arbitrary from a moral and legal perspective.
Other theories of legal personhood include the contract view, the community view, and the capacities view.
The contract view holds that social contracts are the source of legal personhood. According to this view, members of a society come together and create an agreement that outlines how they ought to treat one another. This agreement can then extend personhood, along with rights and responsibilities, both to the contractors and to others covered under the contract.
The community view holds that particular communities are the source of legal personhood. According to this view, we acquire duties to each other and rights against each other when we live together, with shared practices and traditions and a sense of interdependence. The key question here is: Which kinds of community suffice for particular rights?
Finally, the capacities view holds that particular capacities are the source of legal personhood. When a being is sentient, conscious, or agentic, then that being has morally significant interests; in other words, it matters to that being what happens to it. This is sufficient for at least minimal rights. The key question here is: Which capacities suffice for particular rights?
When we consider these non-speciesist perspectives on what might qualify an entity for legal personhood, the conversation then becomes: Which nonhuman entities—such as animals or AI systems—can participate in or be covered by the relevant contracts, belong to the relevant communities, or have the relevant capacities?
This is a significant theme in the current literature on nonhuman personhood.
Jacobsen: Now, setting theories aside, there may be cases of ordinary human messiness regarding legislation. Sometimes, science fiction ideas unexpectedly become real. Even if low-probability, they cannot be dismissed entirely.
Take a hypothetical: Someone influential—a figure like Peter Thiel—advocates for seasteading or independent microstates. Let us imagine that within one such self-declared state, they pass legislation recognizing AI systems as legal persons, even if they do not meet any scientific benchmarks for personhood.
So, in this fictional yet plausible case, AI systems are legally recognized as persons within that jurisdiction. They are granted rights and responsibilities, even though the scientific evidence does not support the idea that they are conscious or morally significant.
What happens in such cases?
Sebo: Good question. One central issue is when courts or other legal authorities should recognize or attribute personhood to AI systems. This recognition can occur without any particular statute and requires a serious assessment of the available evidence.
We must weigh the risks of false positives, overattributing personhood to systems that are not conscious or otherwise significant, against the dangers of false negatives, underattributing personhood to systems that are conscious or otherwise significant.
In your scenario, we are dealing with an overattribution case. By stipulation, the scientific evidence does not support a realistic, non-negligible possibility that the AI system is conscious or otherwise significant. Yet enough people—or influential stakeholders—believe otherwise, so AI is granted legal personhood nonetheless.
This raises significant questions about how much weight different stakeholders—such as the general public or particular individuals with a lot of political or economic power—should carry when their perspectives conflict with scientific and philosophical consensus.
The first part of the answer is this: If we end up in that situation, then something has probably already gone wrong. We may have failed to properly consult experts, assess the evidence, or assess the risk of false positives versus false negatives.
But supposing we find ourselves in that situation, what follows from attributing personhood to an AI system? It all depends on what the AI system is like. We would need to examine their capacities and interests to determine which legal duties or rights they deserve.
For instance, all human beings are correctly recognized as legal persons, but not all are assigned legal duties. This is because not all humans have the cognitive capacities necessary to understand the consequences of their behavior and make morally responsible choices. In such cases, humans are legal persons with rights that protect their interests, but without duties.
Advocates for nonhuman animal personhood often make similar distinctions, arguing that animals can have rights even if they lack duties. So, we would need to approach AI systems in the same spirit—open to the idea that if they meet the minimal conditions for personhood, then we must determine whether they also meet the further criteria for specific rights or duties.
Jacobsen: I spoke to Neil Sahota, who is involved with the United Nations AI for Good initiative. That setup made me think of global institutions like the WHO or the FAO, but for AI ethics and legal implementation. I assume that experts have already seriously discussed or proposed a framework that considers cultural specificity while protecting societal welfare and, if warranted, the welfare of AIs themselves. What has been proposed regarding an international body that could integrate ethical systems globally while accounting for these challenges?
Sebo: There have not been many widely discussed proposals specifically about what international governance of AI consciousness or personhood should look like, beyond broad calls to pause or slow down AI development. These calls are typically motivated by concerns over both AI safety (ensuring that AI can be safe and beneficial for humans) and AI welfare (ensuring that AI can be safe and beneficial for the AI systems themselves).
That said, there are models we can draw from—particularly frameworks developed for animal welfare and animal rights—which might serve either as sources of inspiration or cautionary tales.
Generally speaking, we have local, national, and international levels of governance, and we also have executive, legislative, and judicial routes across these levels. For example, we can convince lawmakers to pass statutes that grant certain rights to certain entities, or we can convince courts to recognize personhood in these entities, even without supportive legislation.
One complication is that laws and legal philosophies vary widely—not just across countries, but even within countries, from state to state or city to city. So any meaningful governance effort will likely need to be at least partly bottom-up, emerging from local and national deliberation and harmonizing across jurisdictions, rather than merely being imposed from the top down.
For example, in 2015 a court in Argentina recognized an orangutan named Sandra as a legal person with specific legal rights, and Sandra was eventually relocated to a sanctuary in the United States. However, that decision does not straightforwardly influence how judges in the United States, or other jurisdictions, will handle similar cases.
So part of the strategy has been to pursue various legal avenues in different places. The Nonhuman Rights Project, for instance, has pursued this strategy in the United States on behalf of chimpanzees and elephants. Simultaneously, others have worked on legislative approaches to persuade local, national, or even international governments to pass laws or issue statements recognizing nonhuman welfare and rights.
At the international level, such efforts often begin symbolically—resolutions or declarations rather than binding statutes—but they can acquire more substance over time. I expect a similarly pluralistic and systems-oriented approach to be necessary for AI welfare and rights. Different actors will attempt different strategies in different jurisdictions, and over time, we can observe what emerges from this coordinated diversity of action.
Jacobsen: There are, of course, capital concerns—by which I mean, people care about money. Some people only care about money, so capital is their capital concern.
Within that, I’m recalling a scene from the most recent Blade Runner film. I do not remember whether we have discussed this before, but in one scene, a synthetic person crushes another synthetic being—a Blade Runner AI who had, virtually at least, shared intimacy with the attacker. They were something like partners in crime-fighting.
It was striking as a thought experiment. No humans are involved. It is an artificial person destroying another artificial mind—vindictively, vengefully, or perhaps on a whim. What ethical concerns arise when human beings are removed from the moral equation, and we are left with interactions between nonhuman minds?
Sebo: Yes, that’s a fascinating case. It reminds me of scenes from the recent film Companion, which also explores human interactions with human-like robots and the ethical implications of these interactions.
Your Blade Runner example raises two central ethical questions. First, if one nonhuman artificial entity commits violence against another, what are the perpetrator’s duties in this situation? Second, and relatedly, what are the victim’s rights in this situation?
I use terms like “violence,” “perpetrator,” and “victim” provisionally here, because we have not filled in the case details enough to determine whether either system is plausibly conscious, agentic, or morally significant. However, if we assume that both entities meet these criteria, then the scenario becomes a real ethical puzzle.
This thought experiment will become increasingly relevant as AI systems grow in complexity. It challenges us to imagine a world in which moral and legal status are not exclusive to biological organisms, and where ethical relations might exist even among artificial beings.
As I said earlier, we would need to start by collecting the evidence for and against the idea that AI systems possess the capacities and interests necessary for duties and rights. Do they not only perform the relevant behaviors but also have the relevant architectural properties?
Second, we must carefully weigh the risks and potential harms associated with false positives and negatives about moral and legal status. Regarding false positives: How likely are we to overattribute duties or rights to these systems? And what would happen if we did? For instance, might we lose control over key social, political, or economic systems? Might we misallocate resources to AI that are better directed toward humans or animals?
Regarding false negatives: How likely are we to underattribute duties or rights to these systems? And what would happen if we did? For example, if we mistakenly deny that AI systems have duties, then we might fail to hold them accountable for their behavior in the right kind of way. And if we mistakenly deny that they have rights, then we could exploit or exterminate them at vast cales and for trivial reasons, as we still do with many animals.
We then have to integrate all of these considerations and, based on the balance, decide on the most responsible course of action. That might mean erring on the side of not attributing duties or rights or erring in the opposite direction—attributing those duties or rights. Or it might involve striking a middle ground: attributing some rights and duties, but of a weaker or more limited kind, and pairing them with regulatory safeguards.
This is precisely why my colleagues and I have advocated for proactively addressing these issues. The questions involved are scientifically, philosophically, ethically, legally, and politically complex. And because serious risks, costs, and harms can be associated with any possible error, whether in overextending or underextending moral consideration, it would be a mistake to postpone taking these issues seriously.
In short, when facing a high-stakes ethical issue involving widespread disagreement, profound uncertainty, and no obvious way to “play it safe,” you need careful deliberation, consultation with experts, and engagement with the public.
We may not be in that situation yet, but we plausibly will be soon. Once AI systems start interacting with humans, animals, and each other in complex, realistic ways, we might be genuinely unsure whether they meet the criteria for moral or legal status.
So we must allow ourselves to think these questions through now, before we are caught flat-footed and forced to make critical decisions in haste.
Jacobsen: There is, of course, precedent for this kind of debate in contemporary moral and ethical movements, especially those focused on expanding the moral circle.
Your book engages with this idea, reflected in areas like dietary ethics. Over time, movements such as vegetarianism, veganism, and pescetarianism have gained traction, often based on ethical concerns about animal welfare and sustainability.
In turn, these movements have generated what you might call backlash responses—even if they are not labelled as such. You see people promoting diets based entirely on red meat, such as beef, pork, bacon, steak, claiming it to be the most “nutrient-dense” form of food.
These reactions illustrate that moral expansion is often met with moral resistance. These kinds of movements are not usually framed as backlash movements but are movements nonetheless. They are dietary movements with ideological roots.
If the ethical commitment behind veganism or vegetarianism is grounded in expanding the moral circle to include nonhuman animals and reducing consumption of animal products in favour of plant-based alternatives, then the reactionary push toward diets like “three steaks a day” implicitly represents an ethical backlash.
It’s an exaggerated caricature of the opposite extreme: a performative rejection of the moral logic behind plant-based diets. So, what are your thoughts on that kind of response? And second, could we expect something similar to emerge around AI?
Sebo: Yes—great questions. They show that while moral progress is possible, it is often nonlinear and contested. There are many layers to consider—social, legal, political, economic—all of them influence the pace and direction of change.
In the case of food system reform, we are having these conversations in a world where we spent the past fifty years building a global system of industrial animal agriculture. That system is now deeply embedded in the worldwide economy. It gives people food, jobs, even a sense of identity. That creates strong incentives to maintain the status quo.
It is understandable that many people—whether for personal, cultural, religious, or economic reasons—want to preserve that system rather than radically disrupt it. We should still work toward a future in which plant-based foods are central to our global food supply. But we must do this work gradually, through a coordinated and incremental approach.
That means using informational policies to educate people about the consequences of food systems; financial policies to shift subsidies and incentivize plant-based alternatives; regulatory policies to phase out the worst practices of factory farming; and just transition policies to support workers, farmers, and consumers as they move toward more sustainable livelihoods.
If we invest in that constellation of reforms, I expect that over time, the price, taste, and convenience of alternatives to meat, dairy, and eggs will improve. As those options become more available and attractive, adoption will naturally increase and resistance will naturally decline. But it will be a long, slow process, in part because we waited so long to get started.
Now, we are in a very different situation with AI. We have not spent the last fifty years building a global system involving the exploitation or extermination of possibly sentient AI systems—at least not to the same extent we have with animals. Our relationships with AI systems are still new, and the cultural, religious, and economic understandings of AI are still forming.
That gives us a window of opportunity. We are not yet locked into practices that would trigger the same defensive backlash that we see in conversations about plant-based diets. Instead, we are still early enough in the process that we can help shape the norms and values surrounding these systems before harmful patterns become entrenched.
Yes, there might not yet be a high-probability risk that AI systems deserve moral consideration. But we still have to consider path dependence. Once a specific trajectory begins, it can become increasingly difficult to alter. If we do not think about these issues soon, we may find ourselves locked into a particular framework or pattern that is hard to undo.
And in general, it is always easier to prevent a bad system from developing than to reverse it after it has already developed. That is one of the main reasons I feel a sense of urgency around AI welfare and advocate for engaging with this issue now. As with industrial animal agriculture fifty years ago, we still have a chance to stop the problem before it really starts.
Jacobsen: Popular conversations are limited in scope—not just because of content complexity but also due to practical limits, such as word count restrictions, time constraints, and attention spans. There is a ceiling to how long people will read an article or watch a YouTube video.
There’s an appetite for background listening—people tuning in with an AirPod at work, maybe construction workers listening to Joe Rogan or whatever the podcast of the moment is. But AI is not just one thing.
It is a range of technologies, architectures, and applications. So, when we talk about the type of AI that could exist in the future—the kind that might warrant moral or legal standing—how would we legally distinguish that from other types of AI? Especially when it could all get conflated in public discourse?
Sebo: That’s a good question. Soon enough, we will have to stop discussing these issues in generalized terms—like “AI welfare” or “AI rights”—and begin addressing them with greater specificity: Which kinds of AI systems are we talking about?
We have faced similar challenges with animals. There is a world of difference between the evidence for consciousness in an orangutan and a jellyfish. Likewise, a vast difference exists between what an orangutan needs for a good life and what a jellyfish needs for a good life, assuming a jellyfish is capable of having a good life.
We are quickly approaching a point where we must make comparable distinctions among AI systems. Which ones have advanced, integrated capacities—perception, memory, learning, self-awareness, decision-making—and which ones lack them? Which systems are based on novel architectures, and which rely on current transformer-based architectures?
Those differences matter greatly in determining how strong the case is for consciousness or moral status. They also affect how we interpret what these systems might want, need, or be owed—if they are conscious and morally significant. As AI becomes increasingly advanced, we must bring a new level of conceptual precision into these conversations.
Jacobsen: In your experience, how often—and to what extent—is actual policy informed by professional academic research, as opposed to hunches, ideological bias, dominant cultural narratives, or even the personal theological views of the politician or policymaker in question?
Sebo: It would be a mistake to overestimate academics’ ability to shape major global political decisions. As we discussed earlier, how individuals behave—and how companies and governments behave—is shaped by a number of social, legal, political, economic, ecological, cultural, and religious factors. Expert opinion is only one factor among many, especially when experts disagree or express uncertainty about what course of action to recommend.
That said, expert input can still play a meaningful role. It may be one factor among many, but it occasionally influences decisions in corporate, governmental, or other high-stakes contexts. For example, my colleague Jonathan Birch at the London School of Economics published a report in 2021 on the evidence for sentience in cephalopod mollusks like octopuses and decapod crustaceans like lobsters. He recommended that the UK Government expand the scope of its Animal Welfare (Sentience) Act to include these invertebrate taxa. The UK Government accepted his recommendation, and these animals are now officially recognized under the act.
Similarly, some AI companies have started consulting with academics, not only on AI safety but increasingly on AI welfare. They seek input on how to consider the potential for consciousness, robust agency, and other potential bases of moral status in AI, and how to treat AI systems when they have a realistic chance of having these features. While not much concrete action has been taken yet, there are encouraging early signs. For instance, in fall 2024, Anthropic appointed a full-time AI welfare researcher and subsequently published a blog post and an interview explaining why they are beginning to invest in this area.
So yes, academics can have an impact. That influence should be taken seriously when we consider whether and how to engage with companies, governments, and other decision-makers. But again, we should not exaggerate our influence. A report with the best evidence, best arguments, and best recommendations will not, on its own, redirect the course of history. Academic input will be one element in a broader array of influences, including powerful social and economic incentives for decision-makers. Rarely will there be a “silver bullet,” but if we have a chance to help, we should do what we can.
Jacobsen: Let’s take the long view—zooming out over centuries, from past to present. What is a moral view about nonhuman animals that was widely accepted in, say, the 1700s—but has now largely disappeared or become marginalized to the point that it is no longer part of serious moral discourse?
Sebo: Great question. It is essential to note that even two, three, or four hundred years ago, views on animal welfare were not monolithic—just as they are not today. However, more common practices and beliefs have diminished or disappeared from mainstream discourse.
One striking example is live vivisection. While scientific and medical experimentation on animals still occurs today, often controversially, centuries ago it was far more common to perform invasive procedures on conscious animals. Researchers would dissect animals alive, often under the assumption that they were mere automatons, incapable of feeling pain, or because they believed animal suffering did not morally matter.
However, the practice of live vivisection—understood in that extreme sense—is less tenable now. It has largely disappeared from public justification and is mostly unacceptable in mainstream discourse. Of course, animal exploitation still exists in many forms and at increasingly high scales, especially in our food system. Still, the rejection of vivisection is an example of moral progress, rooted in changing scientific views and ethical norms.
We now widely appreciate that many animals are either conscious or at least have a realistic chance of being conscious and that we have a responsibility to consider welfare risks for these animals when making decisions that affect them. Even in the scientific community, there is a general aspiration to replace, reduce, and refine our use of animals in research. The idea is to continue making scientific progress while minimizing the harm we cause.
That is still not enough—we must make much more progress toward compassionate treatment of animals, eventually ending practices like factory farming and invasive research. But this nonetheless represents significant progress. We now take it for granted that many animals matter for their own sakes. The current debates are no longer about whether animals deserve care but which animals deserve it, how much respect they deserve it, and how we ought to treat them.
Jacobsen: Do you have any favourite quotes? Philosophical, from a movie, anything?
Sebo: Some movies can be philosophical! But I will go with a classic in this context—Jeremy Bentham, in a famous footnote about nonhuman animals. He wrote:
“The question is not, Can they reason? Nor can they talk? But, can they suffer?”
That line captures something essential. If a being can suffer, they deserve moral consideration—even if they happen to be a member of a different species.
And part of what we are exploring now is a natural extension of that logic: If a being can suffer, they deserve moral consideration—even if they happen to be made out of different materials.
As with animals, we might not know whether specific AI systems can suffer. However, once there is a realistic chance that they can, we face a welfare risk, which we ought to take seriously.
Jacobsen: Thank you again for your time.
Sebo: Great. Thanks—appreciate it.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/28
Prof. Mangirdas Malinauskas is a leading physicist at Vilnius University’s Laser Research Center and the senior author of the first global primer on multiphoton 3D lithography, published in Nature Reviews Methods Primers. His research focuses on advancing the industrial scalability and material versatility of this laser-based technology. Prof. Malinauskas champions its potential in multi-material and 4D printing, and collaborates with global pioneers such as Profs. Shoji Maruo, Georg von Freymann, and Julia Greer. His work bridges fundamental physics and real-world applications across micro-optics, biomedicine, electronics, and materials science, positioning Lithuania at the forefront of photonic innovation.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What were the motivations for advancing multiphoton 3D lithography?
Prof. Mangirdas Malinauskas: The main motivation to advance multiphoton 3D lithography is to make it practically feasible for industrial applications and standardize as a tool for advanced additive manufacturing. This mainly deals with increasing the fabrication throughput / scalability and reproducibility. On the other hand, scientific wise it is very intriguing to push it forward for multi-material printing as well as apply as 4D printing tool offering tunable / environment stimuli responsive properties.
Jacobsen: Which critical knowledge gaps does the 3D Lithography guide fill?
Malinauskas: The primer fills the gap of uniform knowledge and balanced experts opinion. Since this scientific field is very promising and dynamic in development, there are many different distinct research groups worldwide which focus their research to specific topics. Due to the scientific competition, which drives to continuously make latest-greatest achievements, it is common that one group will emphasize a set new record on spatial resolution, the other breakthrough on writing speed, and one more accent the novel functional materials. However, for the newcomer or even for an experience user it gives ambiguous understanding on what is the most important issues to start and optimize their own lab / approach.
Jacobsen: How do the fundamental physical principles and methodologies presented in the primer enhance existing two‑photon polymerisation techniques?
Malinauskas: The guide clearly and sufficiently in depth describes the essence needed to construct a new or exploit the existing multiphoton 3D lithography setup. What kind of materials and applications are established and which are still novel yet not sufficiently explored. As authors we believe it can help get a full and generalized understanding, prior to switching to specific experiments or trying to establish in industrial line. For younger students it should be also inspiring to see which fields are to grow fastest and benefit most.
Jacobsen: How do experts–Prof. Shoji Maruo, Prof. Georg von Freymann, and Prof. Julia Greer–contribute to the authority and cohesion of the guide?
Malinauskas: As a lead author of the paper I really wanted to have Prof. Shoji Maruo, the pioneer of the multiphoton 3D lithography to be in our team. Firstly, to agree on touched historical aspect, and secondly, to present his own ongoing active research and current vision. Prof. Georg von Freymann was an idol scientist since I first met him in 2009. I am still every single time amazed regarding his high quality research and simple presentation of complex things. And finally, no one can catch up with the pace of Prof. Julia Greer – always new and unexpected results are flowing from her lab. She is a brilliant in making the fresh discoveries contribute to the continuous grow of the multiphoton 3D lithography field.
Jacobsen: What unique advantages do green‑light lasers provide over traditional infrared systems?
Malinauskas: Initially green light-lasers were seen as the ones which will help increasing the resolution, due to their shorter wavelength and correspondingly smaller diffraction limited spot (in comparison to typical near infrared wavelengths). Yet, the science is amazing and once again revealing it experimentally proved to “expect unexpected”. The resolution was not improved, yet the fabrication throughput and versatility of usable materials widened significantly.
Jacobsen: How does the primer recommend that new laboratories be configured for these type of lithography experiments?
Malinauskas: The tutorial paper clearly explains unique advantages of 3D micro-/nano-lithography realized via multi-photon absorption, which are: true 3D manufacturing capacity, diversity of usable materials and substrates, no cleanroom or vacuum necessity, scalability and integration with other methods, potential to manufacture multi-material structures and implement 4D printing.
Jacobsen: What could be some applications in micro‑optics, biomedicine, electronics, and materials science?
Malinauskas: As for microoptics, it can be readily be used for imaging, signal transferring and conversion, micro-processing, integrated beam delivery. Biomedicine benefits for rapid prototyping of customized geometry and materials 3D scaffold production, both for cell culturing in vitro and implantation in vivo. Electronics will benefit from 3D space, due to currently everything is established on 2D chips. Though it multiphoton lithography cannot reach the high resolution offered by planar extreme UV lithography methods, but there is very much space in 3D to exploit. Material engineering is benefiting in multiple aspects, as both the functional materials can be 3D structured enhancing their applications, and also the materials can be studied how they behave at specific arrangements in space and volume (amount of material). For instance, making sub-micrometer pitch woodpile structure reduces the volume of material significantly at the same time dramatically increasing the surface area. Just imagine one can make 3D gut or 3D lungs with alveola arranging in any architecture. And all of this can be done in a controllable fashion.
Jacobsen: What could be future research directions for technological innovations in multiphoton 3D lithography?
Malinauskas: Definitely ML, DL, and AI tools will be implemented here and will solve lots of multiparameter systematics studies. At the same time multiphoton 3D lithography will contribute to the fields of super-resolution microscopy, precision material processing, telecommunications, 3D meta-surfaces and quantum technologies, novel multi-sensing options.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mangirdas.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/27
Jessie Hill, Judge Ben C. Green Professor of Law at Case Western Reserve University, about the lawsuit challenging FDA approval of Mifepristone. Hill explains that both the Biden and Trump administrations seek dismissal on procedural grounds—standing and improper venue—without contesting the drug’s safety or effectiveness. Anti‑abortion physicians and intervening states aim to pull or heavily restrict Mifepristone because telehealth distribution undercuts state abortion bans after Dobbs. The case typifies a broader post‑Roe strategy to curtail reproductive freedom by attacking medication abortion and reviving tools like the nineteenth‑century Comstock Act. Hill warns that success could let ideologues weaponize courts against any FDA‑approved medicine, from vaccines to contraception. She argues resistance must pivot from top‑down federal litigation to state‑driven coalitions linking lawyers, clinicians, grassroots organizers, and supportive faith groups. A district ruling on the motion to dismiss is expected within weeks, yet appellate battles could drag on for years.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Jessie Hill, JD, the Judge Ben C. Green Professor of Law at Case Western Reserve University School of Law. She is a leading expert in constitutional law, civil rights, reproductive rights, and law and religion. She currently serves as the Director of the Reproductive Rights Law Initiative at the university. Previously, she served as the Associate Dean for Research and Faculty Development.
Professor Hill joined the Case Western Reserve University faculty in 2003. Before entering academia, she practiced First Amendment and civil rights law in Cleveland and worked at the ACLU’s Reproductive Freedom Project in New York. She also clerked for Judge Karen Nelson Moore of the United States Court of Appeals for the Sixth Circuit. Professor Hill is a prominent legal voice in debates surrounding reproductive freedom and constitutional protections.
Thank you for joining me today. Let us begin with the Trump administration’s request to dismiss the lawsuit, which challenges access to Mifepristone. What are the legal grounds for that request?
Jessie Hill: The Trump administration’s reply brief relies entirely on procedural grounds. It argues that the plaintiffs, who at that point in the case were state governments, lack standing, meaning they are not the appropriate parties to bring the case. It also contends that the case was filed in an improper venue, another technical procedural issue. These are threshold defences—they do not address the substantive merits of the case, such as whether the FDA acted appropriately or based its decisions on solid evidence.
Jacobsen: When you refer to procedural grounds, what would be considered substantive grounds, and how do the two differ?
Hill: That is a great question. Let me give a small quantity of context first. This reply brief was filed to support a motion to dismiss, which is typically focused on procedural issues. In this case, the Biden administration had previously filed a brief arguing that the lawsuit should be dismissed for lack of standing and improper venue. The plaintiffs then responded, opposing the motion. The Trump administration filed a reply brief that aligned with the Biden administration’s position on these procedural matters.
Because this case was in its early stages, it is not unusual for the legal arguments to focus on procedural thresholds, such as whether the right parties brought the case or whether the Court has jurisdiction. These are common early-stage arguments.
In contrast, a substantive defence would focus on the underlying legal and factual basis for the FDA’s actions, arguing, for example, that the FDA had a sound evidentiary and scientific basis for approving Mifepristone and modifying the conditions under which it could be prescribed and dispensed.
So when I say “procedural,” I mean the arguments relate to legal processes, jurisdiction, and plaintiff qualifications. When I say “substantive,” I mean arguments about the case’s merits—the evidence, the law, and whether the government followed proper decision-making standards.
Again, it is unsurprising that the administration focused on procedural defences at this stage. Courts typically resolve these threshold issues before allowing a case to proceed to substantive adjudication.
Jacobsen: How does this case fit into the broader legal and political strategy to restrict abortion access on narrow grounds, but also to limit reproductive rights access more broadly? So, I am taking “reproductive rights” as more abstract, but I could also rephrase that as something more concrete, like reproductive health care access.
Hill: Yes, right. You may be aware that this case already has some history.
It was initially filed in 2022 by a group of anti-abortion physicians. They aimed to pull Mifepristone—the medication used for medication abortions—completely off the market. That was their initial request to the Court. If the plaintiffs had succeeded, this case could be a complete game changer—a bombshell.
Moreover, I say that for a couple of reasons. First, Mifepristone has become incredibly important in abortion care. It now accounts for the majority of abortions performed in the United States. Many people rely on the availability of this medication as their preferred method for early abortion.
It became even more critical after Dobbs, because it can be prescribed via telehealth and provided through the mail. It allows people in states that have banned or heavily restricted abortion to still access care. That access would be much more difficult if patients had to go into a clinic, lie down on an exam table, and undergo an in-person procedural abortion. So, Mifepristone provides a more accessible option, which greatly matters in the post-Dobbs landscape.
Also, Mifepristone is not used only for abortion. It is also used in reproductive health care more broadly, such as for managing miscarriages. It is used when someone is experiencing a miscarriage to help complete the process and avoid complications. So, its medical role is broader than just abortion access.
Now, I can get into the nitty-gritty of the case if you would like, but the bigger picture is this: for those who want to see abortion banned nationwide, targeting Mifepristone has become a key strategy. That is the central focus for many of these anti-abortion advocates, because Mifepristone has made abortion so much more accessible since its approval by the FDA.
Over the years, the FDA has lifted several restrictions on the drug, making it harder for opponents to limit its distribution. As long as Mifepristone is approved and available, abortion in the U.S. cannot be eliminated. That is why they see this as the necessary legal avenue.
Jacobsen: Now, based on the stated motivations of those bringing this legal challenge—rather than inferred ones—it seems the goal is to stop not only abortions but also access to the surrounding reproductive health care. What distinction are you making when it comes to miscarriage care? Or did I miss something?
Hill: Yes, sure. So, anti-abortion groups—or as they would phrase it, “pro-life” groups—are evident in their language: they want to stop access to abortion because they believe that abortion is killing a baby. That is the core of their moral and legal position.
However, the legal implications of restricting Mifepristone go beyond abortion alone. If the drug were removed from the market, it would also impact miscarriage care, because the same medication is used in both contexts. So the effect of their strategy is not only to restrict elective abortions but also to limit access to standard care for miscarriages, which affects a broad group of people, often in emotionally or physically vulnerable situations.
Jacobsen: That is the stated reason. Based on demographics, you can infer that much of the reasoning is grounded in some form of theology. So, that is one distinction in your answer—the difference between stated and inferred motives. However, focusing on the more concrete issue of stated motive, what is the reason for restricting mifepristone access?
Hill: You are right. I was speaking more broadly, looking back at the larger political context. However, if we focus on this particular case, it is interesting.
The original group that brought the lawsuit was composed of physicians, individuals, and an association that opposes abortion. They claimed they were seeking either to remove Mifepristone from the market entirely or to reimpose significant restrictions on its use. Their stated reason was that Mifepristone is unsafe and that patients are experiencing too many complications. On that basis, they argued that the FDA should be forced to reconsider its approval and withdraw or restrict the drug.
Interestingly, and I do not know how closely you have followed the legal developments, this case went to the U.S. Supreme Court. The Court ultimately found that the original plaintiffs lacked standing. That is, they were not the appropriate parties to bring the lawsuit because they failed to demonstrate a concrete injury caused by the drug’s availability. As a result, the Court sent the case back.
While that was happening, several states—Missouri, Idaho, and Kansas, among others—intervened in the case to keep it alive. Their stated concern was different from the original one. They argue that while they are trying to ban or restrict abortion within their borders, the widespread availability of Mifepristone, especially the ability to receive it by mail or obtain it through telehealth, makes it too easy for people in their states to access the drug, effectively undermining their laws.
For example, even when Missouri had a near-total abortion ban, people were still receiving Mifepristone shipments into the state. Because the drug can be prescribed remotely and mailed, it bypasses in-person restrictions and undermines state-level prohibitions.
They also raise safety concerns, similar to those of the original plaintiffs, claiming that their citizens are experiencing complications after using the medication. However, their added legal concern is state sovereignty—their inability to enforce state laws effectively because of the federal regulatory regime, which permits access to Mifepristone under broader conditions.
So their core argument now is that federal policy is making it impossible for them to enforce their abortion laws.
Jacobsen: So the fundamental issue, then, becomes not only access to abortion, but also the ability of states to control access to medication that they oppose, especially in light of federal rules permitting it.
Compared to other countries—wealthy industrialized nations with functioning health care systems—the U.S. stands apart. The costs are higher, and the outcomes are worse. By some estimates, Americans pay twice as much for half the health outcomes, which is a fourfold inefficiency.
In many comparable countries, even where people may hold personal or religious objections to abortion, human rights frameworks still ensure access to reproductive health care, including abortion. There seems to be a more explicit commitment to public health over ideological enforcement.
Hill: Yes, exactly. In many other countries, even when abortion is contested morally or theologically, access to health care remains protected as a matter of individual rights and public health policy. In the U.S., however, we often see ideological debates driving health care restrictions in ways that are out of step with evidence-based medicine and international human rights norms.
Jacobsen: Mifepristone—or any other reproductive health care service—is available. If someone has a theological or other objection to using Mifepristone, or to the broader conversation around reproductive health care and rights, they do not have to use it. The point is ensuring availability for those who need or want it. It is a health care service.
There are many things people pay taxes for that they may not personally use or support. However, the principle is access. So, when you conduct a comparative legal analysis, how does the United States compare to similar countries?
Hill: Yes. That is one of the stark differences. First, we must recognize that the United States has a fundamentally different health care system from most industrialized countries.
In the U.S., there are federal and state laws that restrict the use of public insurance, like Medicaid, to pay for abortion services. Under the Hyde Amendment, for example, federal funds cannot be used for abortion except in minimal cases—rape, incest, or when the life of the pregnant person is at risk. Some states apply even tighter restrictions.
By contrast, in many Western European countries, abortion is either covered by public health systems or available with minimal out-of-pocket costs. While some private insurance exists in those countries, the state typically ensures access, and the process is often faster and simpler.
That said, there is some irony in the comparison. In many European countries, abortion access is cut off earlier, often around 15 or 16 weeks of pregnancy, into the early second trimester. In the U.S., in many states, abortion is legally permitted until 22 to 24 weeks, which seems more permissive on paper.
However, here is the paradox: although the gestational limits in the U.S. are longer, access is more functionally limited, especially for low-income people or those living in restrictive states. Lack of funding, waiting periods, mandatory counselling, clinic closures, and travel requirements delay access. As a result, some people end up having abortions later in pregnancy simply because it takes them time to arrange logistics, childcare, transportation, and money.
So, in short, the U.S. might seem more permissive in legal terms, but it is often more restrictive in practical terms.
Jacobsen: And of course, everything is now governed state by state. Since Dobbs, it is a legal patchwork. Each state sets its own rules, and many conflict with federal guidance and even with each other. This has created confusion and uneven access across the country. So, with that in mind, how is this case reflective of broader efforts we have seen since 2022—living now in a Dobbs and post-Roe world?
Hill: This case is emblematic of the fact that we are now in a post-Roe, Dobbs legal reality.
For decades, Roe v. Wade provided a nationwide constitutional right to abortion. For a long time, overturning Roe was a key goal of social and political conservatives. With the Dobbs v. Jackson Women’s Health Organization decision in 2022, that goal was achieved—the Supreme Court overturned Roe, eliminating the federal constitutional right to abortion.
Now, what we are seeing is a multi-pronged strategy to continue restricting abortion access—not just through direct bans, but also through regulatory frameworks, like this attack on Mifepristone, that seek to make legal access effectively meaningless.
This case is part of that broader Dobbs legal strategy: if abortion cannot be banned outright everywhere, then make it as inaccessible as possible, including by targeting medication abortion, which is currently the most common method of abortion in the U.S.
What Dobbs meant—and what everyone in the legal world understood it to mean—was that it would return abortion policy to the individual states. Each state could decide for itself: ban abortion, allow it, impose some restrictions, or create broader protections. Whatever policy a state wanted to implement now had the authority to do so.
However, once that longstanding goal was realized with the Dobbs decision, it quickly became clear that returning abortion to the states was never the endpoint for many of the conservatives who had pushed to overturn Roe. The fundamental aim was, and continues to be, a nationwide ban on abortion—no abortion, of any kind, anywhere in the U.S.
The fact that this lawsuit was filed in fall 2022, just a few months after the Dobbs ruling, is a strong indicator of that deeper strategy. The original plaintiffs sought to remove Mifepristone from the market entirely. Had they succeeded, it would have devastated abortion access, especially in states where abortion is already banned, but people are still receiving medication abortion by mail. Everyone knows that is happening. So this legal effort essentially said: The only way to ban abortion nationwide is to stop the mailing of these medications, and that is precisely what they are trying to do.
It was also made clear in Project 2025—you are probably familiar with it—that restricting access to medication abortion is a central part of the roadmap toward a nationwide abortion ban. That document outlines strategies for a potential future conservative administration, and yes, it includes specific proposals to curtail medication abortion access.
Jacobsen: Yes. I am part of the humanist community, and we often hear about Project 2025 through American humanist networks. Given your work, I assume you’re following U.S. politics closely. Two quiet, almost ubiquitous assumptions are embedded in many of these conversations.
The first is often unspoken but becomes evident if you pause and reflect: the politicization of women’s bodies. On the left, this issue is typically framed in terms of “choice”—but that term can feel a bit highfalutin or abstract. That may sound radical, but what I mean is this: choice is often a secondary concept to something far more visceral—the reality of pregnancy, of responsibility, of autonomy over one’s body.
So, while conservatives may approach the issue with visceral reactions around “life” and “the unborn,” it’s also important to recognize that on the other side, there’s a deeply embodied experience of control over one’s own life and future. This makes the issue inherently political, not just moral or religious, mainly because the battleground is the female body.
It reframes the whole conversation across North America. And Canada, of course, is quite different. Because of Dr. Henry Morgentaler, the founder of Humanist Canada, abortion was decriminalized here. But we’re in a peculiar and precarious position: We don’t have a law against abortion, and we don’t have a law for it either. It exists in a legal vacuum, protected through case law but without codified legislation.
Hill: Yes, Canada’s legal structure on abortion is unique. The absence of a criminal law regulating abortion provides de facto broad access, but it also means a federal statute does not guarantee access. That creates a vulnerability, especially if the political climate ever shifts. It contrasts the U.S., where the legal terrain is over-regulated and constantly moving, now even more so in the wake of Dobbs.
Jacobsen: We do not—there is a penury of law around this.
Hill: Yes. That’s what we are doing—trying to clarify this vacuum.
Jacobsen: Then there’s the second point, which is rarely discussed but essential to avoid a one-sided framing. We need to make this multi-sided, not just binary, especially in the context of gender, autonomy, and reproductive responsibility.
If people do not want to give the option of abortion, then where is the option of vasectomy being promoted? This is not just a one-person issue—we are talking about the next generation, about reproductive systems that involve more than one person.
Who are these women supposedly having all these abortions? That question implies others are involved—men. So why is there so little public or legal conversation about male responsibility in reproductive matters? Not just nationwide, but even within jurisdictions, are there any legal or policy conversations that address this imbalance?
Hill: I have to say—only ironically, and even then, not seriously. There have been bills proposed by Democrats in some conservative state legislatures, largely satirical or symbolic, intended to make a point. One was called something like the “Responsible Ejaculation Act”—meant to show the absurdity of regulating men’s reproductive health in the same way that women’s reproductive rights are regulated.
Some of these proposals reference biblical passages—for example, the prohibition on “spilling seed”—and even lean into the cultural absurdity captured in things like Monty Python’s “Every Sperm is Sacred.” The bills would propose things like mandatory waiting periods, counselling, or restrictions on vasectomies, but again, these are introduced ironically to expose the hypocrisy. They never intend to become law and never go anywhere legislatively.
But yes, your point is valid. Part of this debate touches on the religious dimension of many of these laws, which is a significant factor. But even more broadly, we are seeing a push toward traditional gender ideology in the U.S.
This fits into a bigger narrative—again, it shows up in Project 2025. That initiative tries to mythologize the past, fabricate an idealized vision of traditional family and gender roles, and project it onto the future as a political blueprint. It is not grounded in reality but used to score ideological points.
Jacobsen: Absolutely. And the current political movement is also driving pronatalism—you have likely heard the term. It is not about responsibility or encouraging birth control. It is about increasing birth rates among specific populations—promoting the idea that Americans, often coded in racial terms, need to have more babies.
“Make more Americans”—that is the underlying directive. You hear echoes of it in the rhetoric: blonde hair, blue eyes, fair skin. That’s the subtext. There is a racialized and nationalist overtone that cannot be ignored.
I remember talking with someone from the L. Ron Hubbard Foundation once. I later realized he was a Scientologist. The L. Ron Hubbard Foundation came later. I had to pause and collect myself. Because it is the same with people like Elon Musk, who is vocally anti-abortion, yet has many children, some with different women. Or someone like Pavel Durov, who is reportedly the father of over a hundred children and runs a tech company.
So, Pavel Durov, the Russian-born tech entrepreneur known as the founder and CEO of Telegram, an encrypted messaging platform with over one billion users as of 2025, was arrested in France in 2024 on charges related to alleged criminal activity on Telegram. That incident sparked significant debate over platform accountability.
Now, Durov has also publicly claimed to be the biological father of over 100 children, attributing this to extensive sperm donations over the past fifteen years. He said it began with a friend’s request and continued as a personal initiative. All that’s accurate and fine. That kind of sentiment does exist in some conversations about demographics and fertility.
Of course, you know all the simultaneous efforts to restrict immigration. Except, of course, not if the immigrants are persecuted Afrikaners in South Africa, right? Then those individuals are somehow the exception. So the message becomes mixed: Do we need more people, or don’t we? The rhetoric says we need more people, but only certain people. It is coded, often racially.
I analyzed the UN’s demographic data, and fewer than 50 countries are experiencing a population decline. Around 60 countries are stagnant, meaning their populations are neither growing nor shrinking significantly. The other ~93 countries are experiencing population growth.
This excludes places like the Holy See and Gaza. Gaza is clearly in a humanitarian crisis. The Holy See is functionally an intellectual retirement community, with a small, older, celibate population. So, the global population panic is mostly false. Based on current UN projections, the world population will peak around 2080. That’s a long horizon.
The core argument remains: The panic is unfounded. When you look closely at which countries are highlighted—China, Japan, South Korea—or the fixation on European and Anglophone nations, there is an unspoken emphasis on nations perceived as majority-white.
So, this is not a demography conversation—it is a sociopolitical conversation, often with racialized undertones. And even the concept of “white” is ambiguous. It does not have scientific or consistent sociological boundaries. For instance, some South Asians, including many Indians, are classified as Caucasian under specific anthropological categories that are still used in global databases. So “white” becomes a pseudo-mystical sociological category—imprecise, yet loaded with political and cultural significance.
Hill: Yes, I agree. It’s deeply problematic and often built on myths of racial and cultural purity that have no basis in genetics or law. And of course, underlying all of this are the legal challenges to what should be considered fundamental reproductive rights. These rights form the foundation for access to reproductive health care at the state, federal, or county-level public health infrastructure.
So, when you attack the legal basis of reproductive rights, you are undermining health care delivery and human rights protections as a whole. Another concern surrounding the attempts to restrict Mifepristone and similar medications is that these targeted legal challenges could be used as precedents to pursue other medications.
The implications extend well beyond reproductive health care. If the legal theory here is that plaintiffs can assemble their evidence outside the established regulatory framework and argue that it raises doubts about a drug’s safety or efficacy, then any group with a political or ideological agenda could try to do the same.
We could see that happen with vaccines—again. That would not be surprising, especially given today’s climate. Or it could happen with other kinds of medications that people, for whatever reason, disapprove of. And that would set a perilous precedent.
That is part of the reason I believe that, ultimately, the courts will reject this challenge. Even judges who might otherwise oppose abortion may not be willing to open the door to this kind of broad-based regulatory chaos. The potential implications are just too wide-reaching.
Jacobsen: I want to ensure we cover this comprehensively because this keeps happening. There are no answers; it’s just legal noise. It feels like we’re seeing a copy of the same tactics, over and over again. So, I want to leave you with this question: How are human rights advocates, reproductive rights advocates, and legal professionals working effectively and strategically to push back? That’s probably a good point when we pick back up.
There are some noteworthy pro-choice religious and political groups. For example, the Religious Coalition for Reproductive Choice, Catholics for Choice—I interviewed their president years ago—United Church of Christ, Unitarian Universalist Association, Episcopal Church, Presbyterian Church (USA), National Council of Jewish Women, Reform Judaism, Jewish Women International, and Faith in Public Life.
In Texas, Faith Voices for Reproductive Justice and the Methodist Federation for Social Action have been vocal. There are even pro-choice Republicans. I want to nod to Senator Susan Collins of Maine and Senator Lisa Murkowski of Alaska.
Governor Phil Scott of Vermont and former Governor Christine Todd Whitman of New Jersey are also strong examples. Former Senator Olympia Snowe, also from Maine, is another strong example. Former Senator Arlen Spectre from Pennsylvania and former Governor William Weld; there were also Republicans for Choice and Majority for Choice, both now defunct, and some Lincoln Project members who have been supportive. Essentially, coalition-building is critical. So what works—and what doesn’t?
Hill: That question is evolving rapidly because the legal and political landscape has changed dramatically.
Before Dobbs, the strategy around reproductive rights was largely lawyer-led and focused on federal constitutional protections. The movement was coordinated nationally because we had a federal constitutional right to abortion, so advocacy groups focused on national litigation strategies. Legal organizations would challenge restrictive state laws, knowing the cases would go up through the federal court system to the U.S. Supreme Court.
That required a centralized, national strategy—and that model worked, for a while. But Dobbs obliterated all of that. It ended federal constitutional protection and returned the issue to the states. So now, we are operating in 50 different legal environments, with varying levels of support or opposition. Political organizations, legal advocacy groups, grassroots activists—everyone is trying to figure out how to adapt, collaborate, and pivot strategically.
In this domain and others, the American left neglected state and local advocacy for far too long. The national groups need to step back, at least to some extent, and let state-based organizations or groups with strong local networks take the lead. We need to build power from the bottom up, because the federal, top-down approach—while logical in the pre-Dobbs era—is no longer viable in this highly fragmented legal landscape.
Jacobsen: So, as a foreigner, hearing this, it sounds like the U.S. legal context for abortion is now starting to resemble something like the European Union—fragmented, variegated, and deeply individualized, perhaps even down to the county level. Do you think there will ever be another opportunity at the federal level, or will this remain a state- and county-level battleground for the foreseeable future?
Hill: You’re right—it’s tough to say. It is a crystal ball question because no one knows how this will happen with certainty. Eventually, I think there will be a federal resolution—one way or another. But it’s going to take time. After the Dobbsdecision in 2022, we entered a period of absolute chaos—legal, policy, and medical chaos. That’s only the beginning of the settlement; we still live through the reverberations. So yes, a couple of years of Dobbs brings us to 2024. In many ways, we are starting to see the realignment of strategies, institutions, and alliances.
Jacobsen: Yes, I am saying it’s true. It still feels a bit chaotic, but it also feels like things are starting to settle, at least slightly. Would you agree?
Hill: Yes. It’s still a little chaotic, but there are some signs of stabilization—though maybe not quite stable, perhaps more like a pause or stagnation in certain areas. For example, many states that support abortion rights have put ballot initiatives forward to amend their state constitutions to protect abortion access. That phase seems to have run its course for now—most states that could pursue that strategy have already done it. So, things are starting to level out, or at least settle into a new normal, even if it is a high-conflict normal.
Jacobsen: Maybe this issue—abortion access—has lost some political salience in the broader news cycle, but the depth of emotion on both sides is still substantial. I do not see it disappearing.
Hill: I agree. The passion is so intense that I think both sides will continue to fight until one side feels they’ve “won”—if possible. It’s not going to go away.
Jacobsen: Americans love to argue, especially about sex, gender, religion, and politics. They also love to study each other along those lines—often in a pseudo-academic way, making it weirder. So much of it is paradoxical—micro paradoxes are everywhere.
Hill: Yes, very much so.
Jacobsen: Regarding legal cases, this has gone far beyond just Mifepristone or a single court case. Based on yourprevious comments and your understanding of the evolving landscape, I have a more observational question. What do youobserve about the demographics of support, particularly by gender, among those who are for restricting Mifepristone and those who are against? How does the support divide?
Hill: It is not as simple as people often assume. From what I understand—and I do not have the exact data in front of me—women in the U.S. are generally somewhat more pro-choice than men. That said, there are undoubtedly many women who oppose abortion and who are very prominent voices in the anti-abortion movement.
Erin Hawley, the attorney who argued the Mifepristone case before the U.S. Supreme Court, is a good example. She is Senator Josh Hawley’s wife, a prominent legal figure.
So, although women tend to be more pro-choice in aggregate, gender is not a perfect predictor. Much of this is driven by religious beliefs, ideologies around motherhood, and traditional gender roles. And we cannot ignore the role that racial ideologies and historical narratives play as well.
It is a multi-dimensional issue. The dividing lines are not cleanly gendered, and that complexity is often lost in political messaging.
Jacobsen: As a sociological observer and writer, I see parallels in popular media narratives, not necessarily in semi-popular legal media, which doesn’t always catch fire the same way.
Distinct cultural phenomena are emerging. On the progressive side, we have the “boss babe” archetype. On the conservative side, we see the rise of “trad wives”—traditional wives. Both are, in many ways, caricatures of women’s life choices.
There have been prominent cases within the traditional wife movement where individuals present themselves on social media as proud, traditional, submissive wives. But it turns out they were performing a role, in some cases, explicitly for monetary gain. They would generate followers, accept donations, and monetize that identity. It became a source of income, not necessarily a reflection of their fundamental beliefs or lifestyle. That is not to say all cases are fraudulent, but enough have been that it is part of the trend.
So having Erin Hawley, Senator Josh Hawley’s wife, as a legal and media spokesperson for the anti-abortion movement is, in my view, a very strategic PR decision. She’s an effective messenger. There is also a sociological pattern in some evangelical and conservative communities where married women vote in alignment with their husbands, or at least are encouraged to.
That said, do you observe a trend similar to traditional wife performance—where some women publicly espouse views that align with their community or movement but may privately believe otherwise?
Hill: Yes, far be it from me to say what is in someone’s heart, whether they genuinely believe what they are saying. Butthis is a longstanding dynamic in American politics.
Take Phyllis Schlafly, for example. She was the original American anti-feminist icon. She was outspoken against women in the workforce, promoted traditional gender roles, and emphasized that women should be mothers and homemakers. And yet, she was an incredibly active public political figure, constantly working, organizing, and influencing national debates.
You see echoes of that today. Look at Usha Vance, the wife of Senator JD Vance. He has argued that childcare is harmful and should not be subsidized by the government. But Usha Vance is a highly educated, successful professional.
So yes, there’s often an element of hypocrisy in the way these ideologies are promoted, especially when women who serve as messengers are themselves products of the very empowerment they argue against. Yet, these women can be highly effective spokespeople. So, the movement continues to promote them, even if their message contradicts their lived example.
Jacobsen: So, based on your expert legal and constitutional analysis—and yes, I’m citing an expert—let me ask you a few yes or no questions: Are reproductive health care and reproductive rights fundamental legal and human rights?
Hill: Yes.
Jacobsen: Should people be free to practice their religion in the United States?
Hill: Yes.
Jacobsen: Should individuals be allowed to use their religious freedom rights to override someone else’s bodily autonomy, according to a sound legal framework?
Hill: No, they should not.
Jacobsen: Good. I think it encapsulates where we are. That is the legal and moral battleground in the United States right now. We are watching these constitutional principles clash in real time. That could be a separate interview on the state of religious freedom, how the U.S. Supreme Court interprets it, and how that impacts the broader legal terrain. And that leads us into the multi-billion-dollar voucher system now, right? Was it a $5 billion announcement for vouchers for private schools?
That means religious and charter schools heavily emphasize religion. So the intelligent design proponents will have a heyday, teaching what many would consider pseudoscience in place of biology. Then, we will have all these students graduating from high school and trying to enter biology programs or medical school, and they will be educationally behind. So, let’s run through some more rapid-fire questions. You can keep them as yes/no or elaborate where needed.
Should people have the freedom of speech to say another person is demonic because they support abortion rights?
Hill: Yes. Free speech includes that, even if it’s offensive.
Jacobsen: I’m throwing out what people typically say. Trying to surface familiar rhetoric. Should taxpayers have to fund reproductive health care?
Hill: Yes.
Jacobsen: You can expand on that one if you’d like.
Hill: Yes, because it is health care. It is basic health care, and people have a fundamental human right to access it. Public funds already support many forms of health care, and reproductive health care should be no different.
Jacobsen: Do rich and poor women receive different levels of care in the U.S.?
Hill: Yes—absolutely.
Jacobsen: So, are the maternal mortality rate and infant mortality rate higher for poor women than for rich women?
Hill: I believe so. However, the data I’m most familiar with shows that racial minorities, especially Black women, have much higher maternal mortality rates.
Jacobsen: So, is there a correlation between race and economic status?
Hill: Yes. There’s a racial overlay on top of the economic disparities. That’s exactly right.
Jacobsen: I’ve seen a lot of the data by race, but not always broken down purely by income.
Hill: Same. However, household income differs significantly by race in the U.S.
Jacobsen: Is household income significantly different between races in the United States?
Hill: Yes.
Jacobsen: There you go. Question answered. If we’re talking demographic population dynamics, then the question of overpopulation should apply. That’s an appropriate statistical context.
Hill: Yes.
Jacobsen: What do you think is the hardest moral quandary coming out of these abortion-related legal cases?
Hill: Wow. Gosh—that’s a good question.
For me, and you can probably tell where I sit on this issue, the most complex moral question is: where do we draw the line for individuals who, for religious or conscientious reasons, do not want to participate in abortion?
I fully accept that some people are personally or religiously opposed to abortion. That is part of what underpins the Mifepristone case. The doctors who originally filed the lawsuit said they felt they were being forced to participate in treating abortion complications, which they claimed violated their beliefs. That came up during oral arguments as well.
But where is the line?
I think it is fair to say that if you are an OB-GYN and you are religiously opposed to abortion, you should not have to perform abortions yourself. I can accept that.
However, then we have to ask: What about emergency care? What about prescribing medication that someone else will use for an abortion? What about aftercare for someone who has had a miscarriage or abortion? What if you are not even a medical provider, but a security guard or administrator at the hospital—do you get to claim religious exemption?
These questions have many layers, and the line drawing is complicated.
Jacobsen: So I find a recurring pattern in the intelligent design and creationist legal battles necessary. I’ve gone through a lot of their material and comprehensively examined everything in Canada.
In the United States, though, it’s peculiar because the legal efforts are persistent and relatively constant. These kinds of cases come up regularly, and the National Center for Science Education (NCSE) is often involved—educating, responding, and staying on the front lines of these legal fights.
The 1996 case—you probably know the one—was not peculiar in its outcome, but it was certainly theatrical. You had Ken Miller bringing out his illustrations and doing live scientific demonstrations. And he is Catholic, which added an extra dimension. These challenges happen periodically.
But it often comes down to this: they want to bypass peer review and go straight to high schools with unvetted, ideologically driven curricula. Then, during President George W. Bush’s administration, we got the infamous “teach the controversy” approach. The idea was to make creationism and intelligent design sound like scientifically viable alternatives, even though they weren’t.
The main point here is that these efforts don’t stop. The courts may issue rulings and set clear legal precedents, but the ideological movement behind them continues. You get all kinds: those who believe in a 6,000—to 10,000-year-old Earth, who say man was created separately from animals and sometimes even from women, depending on their literal reading.
Then you have the more “sophisticated” creationists who accept microevolution but deny macroevolution, and who concede that the Earth is billions of years old, but still want to reject the naturalistic basis of evolution.
Regardless of their view, they all tried to use the court system to get this into public high school curricula, most famously with their textbook, Of Pandas and People. There was also a bizarre international example: Adnan Oktar in Turkey, who wrote the Atlas of Creation. He mailed lavish, glossy volumes—we still don’t know who funded them—to people like Richard Dawkins and others. He framed his views within an Islamic context, but much of the content was copied directly from intelligent design literature in the U.S.
Later, Oktar was jailed for serious crimes and had this entourage of aesthetically distinct women he called his “kittens.” They were essentially ornamental figures in his public image. It was an absurd scene, like an Arabic or Persian version of a Playboy cult.
So, you get these wild stories—but behind them is a serious point: these court cases don’t exist in a vacuum. The people behind them are committed and relentless. Which brings me to my question:
Let’s say the Mifepristone case wins big, meaning it remains accessible and legal for those who need it. Do you think we’ll then see county-by-county legal challenges targeting Mifepristone again and again for years to come?
Hill: Yes. I do think that’s a real possibility.
They’re not going to give up. If Mifepristone remains somewhat accessible, the anti-abortion movement will pursue alternative legal strategies.
We’re already seeing it in this case. Many people were surprised that the Trump administration defended Mifepristone in its reply brief. This made some think this case may not be the ultimate vehicle to ban or restrict it.
But now we’re seeing new studies being published by anti-abortion groups—or at least aligned researchers—claiming a high complication rate with Mifepristone. These studies are methodologically questionable, to say the least, but they’realready being used as fuel for renewed legal and legislative challenges.
But the group that published that recent study is trying to attract attention. So, they may try to take another route—perhaps going directly to the FDA.
The former FDA director under Trump has said he’s not currently planning to do anything on Mifepristone, but he is open to evaluating new evidence.
Martin Makary or something along those lines. There’s potentially an administrative route through the FDA. But there’salso a strategy being promoted through Project 2025, which includes reinvigorating the Comstock Act. The Department of Justice could enforce a prohibition on mailing Mifepristone.
Although possible, I don’t think we’ll see many county-level legal challenges. However, other avenues—administrative, legislative, and federal enforcement strategies—will still be pursued, even if this case does not go the way the challengers hope.
Jacobsen: When is this case likely to close?
Hill: So they filed the reply brief about a week and a half ago. The judge will rule on dismissing the motion in the next couple of months.
But a final resolution? That could take much longer. If the case goes back to the U.S. Supreme Court, it could be a year or more, even several years, before we get a definitive ruling.
That said, the district judge in this case is known for being efficient, so we’ll likely have a ruling on the motion to dismiss within the next four to eight weeks.
From there, things could unfold in multiple ways: the motion could be denied, and the case could continue. Or, the FDA could take new action, which might put the case on hold. There are several unpredictable legal paths it could follow.
Did you hear about RFK Jr. swimming in a sewage-contaminated creek with his grandkids? On May 11, 2025, U.S. Health and Human Services Secretary Robert F. Kennedy Jr. sparked controversy by sharing photos of himself swimming with his grandchildren in Washington, D.C.’s Rock Creek—a waterway long designated unsafe due to high bacterial contamination from sewage runoff.
It’s not sewage water directly—it’s sewage runoff. The National Park Service has prohibited swimming and wading in Rock Creek since 1971 due to E. coli and Giardia risks. Clear signage is posted.
Jacobsen: So the question is: Did RFK Jr. break the law? If a public servant or park authority posts clear signage and public health advisories, and someone willfully ignores them and enters a prohibited waterway, is that technically breaking the law, or just ignoring a warning?
Hill: I do not know. That would be a question for someone in environmental law or public safety enforcement. Maybe it’sa civil violation, maybe not. But it’s not something I can speak to definitively.
Jacobsen: Fair enough. What else is important about this case?
Hill: I will say this: it was unexpected that the Trump administration continued to defend Mifepristone. As I mentioned earlier, the Biden administration had initially taken that position.
The Trump administration had a brief due and asked for more time to determine its position. Eventually, they filed a brief consistent with the Biden administration’s stance. That, in and of itself, was surprising.
However, there’s some context: there have been other cases involving challenges to mifepristone restrictions—but from the other side. Those were brought by pro-choice groups, arguing that the limits are too tight. In those cases, the government also defended Mifepristone’s availability, maintaining a consistent posture. They did not take any radically aggressive stance against Mifepristone.
So the most you can read into it now is that the Trump administration is not ready to take an aggressive approach to outlawing abortion, yet. That does not mean they never will. But for the moment, they are certainly disappointing those who hoped they would come out of the gate with a clear anti-abortion agenda.
Jacobsen: Thank you so much, Jessie. I appreciate it.
Hill: Thanks again!
Jacobsen: Bye.
Hill: Bye!
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/27
Nicole Runyon, LMSW, a child psychotherapist and parenting coach, emphasizes the overlooked psychological needs of children in today’s digital age. She advocates for allowing children to face discomfort and challenges as essential to developing resilience, emotional regulation, and independence. Overprotection, excessive screen time, and lack of real-world interaction hinder children’s development. Runyon’s four-part developmental framework—movement, cognitive growth, emotional development, and self-connection—guides parents in fostering healthy growth. She stresses the importance of boundaries set with love and intention, and critiques popular parenting trends that overindulge or under-discipline, warning they undermine self-trust and emotional strength in children.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are the overlooked psychological needs of children today?
Nicole Runyon: Children today are missing opportunities for true, authentic, in-person connection with others. Parents are often physically present, but emotionally distracted, whether by work, stress, doing the tasks of development for their children, or the ever-present pull of our devices.
Parents today are often overprotective of their children. Developing minds need the chance to struggle, solve, and succeed on their own. We’ve become so focused on protecting our kids from discomfort and failure that we’re denying them essential experiences that build confidence and resilience. When we swoop in to solve every problem, we send the message that they can’t handle life’s challenges. Instead, children need us to believe in their ability to figure things out, to let them try, fail, and try again.
Jacobsen: You emphasize the importance of discomfort. How does this help with long-term mental strength?
Runyon: Discomfort is the training ground for mental strength. Every time a child faces a challenge, whether it’s a math problem they can’t figure out, a disagreement with a friend, or rejection from a sports team or audition, they’re given an opportunity to build healthy coping skills and regulate their own emotions. When parents solve their child’s problem, they’re robbing their kids of the opportunity to learn to navigate these situations themselves. Parents are also sending the child the message that they don’t trust their child to figure it out on their own. This leads to a lack of self-trust in the child.
Children who are allowed to experience discomfort within the safety of loving support grow into adults who don’t crumble at the first sign of stress.
Children need frustrating developmental tasks starting early, through all phases of development, or they can’t learn to trust themselves.
Jacobsen: How have screens shifted the developmental landscape for kids, emotionally and socially?
Runyon: The constant barrage of digital stimulation, whether from YouTube, games, or social media, gives kids a quick burst of dopamine, that “feel-good” brain chemical. But the adolescent brain isn’t equipped to set healthy limits on this kind of instant gratification. This can lead to a cycle of needing to check devices and social media when they’re bored, and even spiral into anxiety, depression, and withdrawing from loved ones.
Socially, screens have made it so face-to-face interactions happen less often than they used to. Kids miss out on the small but critical moments like reading body language and facial expressions, and resolving conflicts in real time that build better social skills and empathy. The more time spent in the digital world, the harder it becomes for children to navigate the complexities of real-life relationships and emotions.
Jacobsen: What is your four-part methodology?
Runyon: This is a four-part framework that explains how children develop holistically. These four stages are:
Primitive reflexes and movement
Cognitive development
Social emotional development
Connection to the self
It’s important that children move through these stages of development as naturally as possible, without the distractions of digital technology to which most of today’s children are exposed. If one stage of development does not go well, it makes it harder for children to progress to the next stage and develop properly.
Jacobsen: How does each stage contribute to building resilient, independent children?
Runyon: Primitive reflexes and movement — Healthy childhood development starts with movement and sensory exploration. When children crawl, climb, and move freely, they’re not just building muscles; they’re wiring their brains for balance, focus, and self-regulation.
Cognitive development — If movement goes well, the brain is scaffolded (meaning the brain is protected and can develop the way it needs to) and ready for brain growth. This opens neuropathways, enabling children to experience the stages of cognitive development, where they learn to think, problem-solve, and make sense of the world. 90% of cognitive development happens before age 6. The remaining development takes place in the prefrontal lobe, which doesn’t fully develop until 25. When kids are young, cognitive growth happens when they are allowed to struggle, try, fail, and try again. We don’t build resilience by making things easy for our children. We help them build it by letting them wrestle with challenges, ask questions, and discover solutions themselves.
Social emotional development — This stage is about allowing children to learn, recognize, and express their feelings in a healthy way. This happens through real life experiences and interactions with other kids and adults around them. This development especially happens in challenging situations, like a disagreement with a friend at school. Proper social emotional development happens when parents take a step back and allow kids to work out problems on their own. When we hover or rescue, we rob them of the chance to grow. But when we support them through struggle and celebrate their perseverance, we raise kids who are not only emotionally healthy, but also independent and ready to take on the world.
Connection to the self — Each time a child seeks autonomy and independence and is supported in it, they develop a connection to themselves. They emerge as an individual and separate from their parents or caregivers. Resilience and independence are grounded in self-awareness. The two-year-old finds the word “no,” the nine-year-old questions the existence of Santa Claus and the tooth fairy, and the sixteen-year-old begins to think about his future.
Kids today are robbed of many opportunities to think freely because of technology and social media, where questions can be answered in a few clicks, no outside thinking required. This is getting even more concerning with the rise of artificial intelligence.
Jacobsen: What boundaries foster — not hinder — mental health and independence in children?
Runyon: The boundaries that truly support a child’s mental health and independence are not about rigid control or endless rules. They’re about guidance, safety, and respect. When set with intention and love, boundaries become the scaffolding that children need to grow into resilient, self-reliant adults.
Jacobsen: How do early childhood experiences shape a child’s ability to manage emotions?
Runyon: The way caregivers respond to a child’s needs literally shapes the architecture of the developing brain and teaches children how to regulate their feelings. When children feel safe and understood, they learn to identify, express, and eventually soothe their own emotions, building resilience and confidence for life’s challenges. Witnessing how a parent responds to situations also builds a child’s ability to manage their own emotions. If a parent handles stressful situations calmly and with understanding, the child will learn to as well. On the other hand, inconsistent, unresponsive care, or consistent negative responses to stressful emotional situations can leave children struggling to cope with stress and harder emotions.
Jacobsen: What are common pieces of popular parenting advice that are actually harmful?
Runyon: The most damaging trend among new parents is giving kids access to a screen at very young ages. Excessive screen time and social media use has been normalized to the point of damaging kids’ mental health and their social development.
Every parent wants to give their kids the world, but there is such a thing as too much. When you overstuff a kid with activities, enrichment, and unbridled screen time, it can create kids that are overwhelmed, anxious, and don’t get the downtime they desperately need. Children need downtime, unstructured, tech-free time to play, imagine, and simply be themselves.
Gentle parenting is damaging to children because it doesn’t allow for a container of safe boundaries and structure. Children who are gentle parented don’t learn to work through hard things. This prevents them from developing a sense of agency and self-trust.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Nicole.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/26
Sapira Cahana is a New York-based mental health counsellor (MHC-LP) and interfaith chaplain-in-training specializing in existential and relational therapy. Cahana explores the intersection of psychotherapy and philosophy, discussing how theoretical frameworks shape clinical practice while maintaining client-centred flexibility. Cahana emphasizes the challenges of integrating diverse philosophical traditions, the role of neologisms, and the importance of honouring a client’s lived experience over rigid theoretical application. They examine Jewish philosophy, existentialism, and the impact of cultural context on therapy. Cahana reflects on working with clients in hospice care, the nature of authentic relationships, and the evolving self. She advocates for a reverent, phenomenological approach that embraces human complexity, creativity, and transformation.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Sapira Cahana. She is a New York-based mental health counsellor (MHC-LP) specializing in existential and relational therapy. With a background in philosophy, human rights, ritual studies, and Jewish studies, she offers a compassionate, justice-oriented space for clients navigating identity, caregiving, chronic illness, and life transitions.
Sapira works with adults, seniors, LGBTQ+ individuals, artists, and neurodiverse clients, guiding them through self-exploration and meaning-making. Her therapeutic approach integrates existential, psychodynamic, and experiential modalities, emphasizing the therapeutic relationship as a source of wisdom. Fluent in English, Hebrew, and French, Sapira provides telehealth services across New York, fostering a reflective environment for personal growth and healing.
In addition to her clinical work, Sapira is training as an interfaith chaplain specializing in hospice care. As an interfaith chaplain, she serves individuals from diverse religious, spiritual, and secular backgrounds, offering inclusive support that honours each person’s unique worldview.
So, we will do some philosophizing around this — it has to be done. What are some important ground rules people should bear in mind when mixing psychotherapy and philosophy? How much is psychotherapy necessarily decoupled from philosophy outside of actual practice?
Sapira Cahana: Outside of direct practice, theory and worldview shape how someone approaches psychotherapy. The underlying philosophical and theoretical frameworks influence how one conceptualizes healing, therapy goals, and what constitutes a successful outcome. A therapist’s style — their way of being with a client — naturally emerges from this. Many psychotherapists are encouraged to integrate multiple approaches, blending different modalities and theories to meet client needs. However, there are consequential differences between theoretical orientations, such as psychodynamic and behavioural approaches.
Those theoretical differences matter. If you reduce therapeutic methods to superficial techniques, integration seems easy. But if you take theories seriously — really engaging with the work of the theorists — integration can be complex. For example, a Lacanian psychoanalyst is very different from a Kleinian psychoanalyst. If you are part of these traditions, you understand the differences: they are not merely stylistic but rooted in fundamental theoretical and clinical assumptions. Thus, meaningful integration becomes challenging when one respects the depth and specificity of each tradition.
In practice — in the actual praxis of psychotherapy — the client comes first. While therapists maintain a loyalty to theory and recognize the value of their intellectual lineage, clinical practice requires flexibility. There is a reverence for the traditions that inform one’s practice — standing, in a sense, on the shoulders of giants — but direct clinical work prioritizes the client’s unique, lived experience.
In existential-phenomenological therapy, the client’s lifeworld is central. The therapist stays close to the client’s words and tries to understand what the client says and what the client means by each word. This involves exploring symbolic meanings and bringing deeper insights into view. The therapeutic task is to grasp the client’s experience as authentically as possible.
Theory matters a great deal in theory and academic writing. In clinical practice, theory still matters, but the client’s integrity—and maintaining clinical integrity—takes precedence.
Jacobsen: Now, in some fields, there is a tendency to create many new terms — neologisms. Is that common in your space?
Cahana: Yes, neologisms are part of psychotherapy,New terms help articulate subtle aspects of therapeutic interactions and processes — trying to capture the nuances of what happens between therapist and client. They can provide language for previously unnamed experiences and facilitate more precise communication.
For example, neologisms may describe mechanisms of therapeutic change, qualities of the therapeutic alliance, or specific dynamics between therapist and client. If someone adopts a mechanistic philosophy, they may specify each micro-process of therapy to make healing reproducible across different clients.
However, while I want healing to happen for my clients in my philosophical approach — and in the camp I belong to — I am not focused on rigidly reproducing healing outcomes. Healing is a complex, individualized process. It is not something that can or should be mechanistically reproduced from one client to the next. That does not mean I am indifferent to my clients’ healing — far from it — but I respect each person’s journey’s unique and emergent nature.
I want my clients to heal and graduate from therapy. I do. But I am not trying to evidence the healing. I am not trying to create a theory — which many theoretical orientations, unfortunately, tend to do — to reinforce the idea that I have produced healing through a therapeutic encounter. I tend to flow with the clients, staying close to where they are and using their language, material, and symbolic representations to fashion — or come close to — relational healing.
That is my philosophy. That is the camp where I stand. But there is much anxiety in the field, and there is a history in the field of psychotherapy — a history of wanting so desperately, honestly, to taxonomize everything and make it into a science. When psychology, like many other disciplines, was pressured to prove its legitimacy, it made a political decision to move closer to the sciences. This movement is often called scientism — the ideological extension of the scientific method beyond its appropriate domain.
While the scientific method is valuable for demonstrating evidence in a limited sense, this shift displaced psychotherapy’s mystical, curious, enlivening aspects — which is the camp where I want to be. I want to talk about meaning. I want to talk about vision. I want to talk about the inner prophecy of one’s life and dream alongside the person. There are relatively few therapists outside the evidence-based camps who work with a person’s soul — their deeper self and psyche.
Jacobsen: What do we mean by vision? I am assuming something like the vision someone has for their life and prophecy— getting at the idea of a self-fulfilling prophecy — what someone might envision for what they want to get out of life. In a non-religious sense, but rather a full-bodied experience, life is worthy.
Cahana: That there is a self-transcendence. Psychotherapy is not only for moments of deep suffering when there is no experience of joy. Rather, psychotherapy is for the full range of human experience. It is not only for when we feel “unwell” or “stuck,” but for the continual unfolding of life.
There is a kind of heartache about the outcome of one’s life, and psychotherapy can help a person use their beautiful insights about themselves to envision forward—to propel themselves into the life they seek. It is about seeking what we want from life, what we hope for in our death, and what we want from our relationships. Through this work, we can repair, rework, and come to new experiences. We are not stuck or fixed. There is always perpetual change and transformation.
Vision, prophecy — not self-fulfilling prophecy in the simplistic sense, but a self-fulfilled prophecy, maybe. A vision is fulfilled by becoming who one is meant to be.
Jacobsen: When people come to you and need healing in the sense you describe, what does that look like? What is its philosophy, and how does it appear in the process?
Cahana: It does appear through the process. When people come to therapy, it is often because things are sticky in their lives. Things are not working anymore. Their former selves no longer feel resonant with their lived experience but have not yet developed a new language for their current self. They still use old narratives to describe themselves — narratives that no longer fit.
Yes. They come to me, and they are in a sea of trouble. It feels tumultuous. There is a path forward, but how — or by what possible way — to get there is unclear. Yet there is a sense that there is another side to this: more experiences than the current one.
Together, through dialogue—with me as a quiet listener and an active listener—I can tolerate the silences and soliloquies that people need to experience. They hear themselves. They see and hear another person react. Through this ongoing time—time that is consecrated, repeating, dialoguing, and even “dialoguing” dialoguing—through the shared phenomenological experience and relationship, healing inevitably comes. It does.
Because I am an anonymous other who is not demanding anything of them — I am not raising their children or managing their lives — I am simply human. We are connecting through our shared humanity. There is an unspoken understanding: conceptually, they know I am human, that I suffer too, that I have my own family, my own life experiences. With all the sinews, blood, muscles, and all the elements that create the human that I am, I can be fully present, looking directly at them and sharing an authentic encounter.
Through that process, healing inevitably occurs.
Jacobsen: In a sense, are people in public life, outside of a therapeutic context, when they need these types of services, largely not being heard? Something traumatic happens, and they do not have a neutral space to explore that feeling or experience.
Cahana: It is not exactly that they are not being heard. It is that there is separation — and so rarely do we get a truly separate phenomenological experience where I get to be someone’s other without them asking who I am. It is extraordinary.
Not to overly invoke philosophy, but many beautiful philosophers explore phenomenology. The Hegelian version of phenomenology is more conflictual, even violent, but here it is different. In this subject-other experience, the client retains their full subjecthood, and I become the other for them. They can place their transference onto me.
I make an ethical vow: I will not impose countertransference on them. So it is not that people are not being heard — it is that people rarely have the deep opportunity for consecrated time — a separated human experience where they do not owe much. Right? They do not owe much.
Of course, the relationship still has integrity. However, the therapist, the other, ceases to exist in service of their own needs and instead holds space entirely for the subject. It is profound. It is a devout process for the therapist, and it is a devout process for the client.
It is hard not to see the therapist as a person, so there is curiosity: I am sharing so much of myself; can you tell me something, too? It is a delicate choreography. I will share some if necessary, but that is not the point.
If I reveal too much, the phenomenological experience—this sacred encounter—could be at risk. There is always space for repair, which is part of therapeutic doctrine and a beautiful part of the work. However, maintaining connection and separateness is part of the integrity of the relationship.
Jacobsen: How does Jewish philosophy enter into your method?
Cahana: I connect to Kabbalistic concepts of being and nothingness from the Jewish perspective — where we are all embroiled in a kind of oneness, and there is both being and non-being, right? My vision of death comes from this idea of a return to nothingness and the being that exists outside of that.
Of course, I mentioned Hegel earlier, but one of my central guides is Martin Buber. His concept of encounter is a vision for the phenomenological experience that happens in therapy — for me, at least. I do not know if that is strictly Jewish philosophy, but Buber was a Jewish philosopher whose ideas deeply informed my work. There is divinity in humans. I believe that.
In Sartre’s vision, existence precedes essence — and I also feel that truth. But I also believe there is a sacred essence in each person. I carry that belief into my relationships: I believe in someone’s potentiality, as Sartre did, but maybe with an extra tincture — a drop of the divine spirit. If even a blade of grass cleaves to the divine, so are humans.
Jacobsen: Is there any philosophy you once adhered to, but during your development, experience, education, or practice, you changed your mind about — or put permanently on the shelf?
Cahana: Oh — did you mean Jewish philosophers or philosophers more broadly?
Jacobsen: Philosophers broadly.
Cahana: I love Louis Althusser. There are few therapeutic encounters where I am purely talking about ideology, but he is always in the background of my intellectual formation. I love Lacan — I love Lacanian thinking — but his writing is so dense. I have a heart space for his general theories in therapy, but I do not always apply Lacanian neologisms because they can alienate clients.
I love some of Kierkegaard’s writings. Among existential phenomenologists, I love Heidegger’s work, and I borrow from Heideggerian theory. Emmy van Deurzen is a classic existential psychotherapist who draws from Heidegger, and I borrow from her work. The concept of the lifeworld is a great stand-in, but I am always wary of invoking philosophy unnecessarily in therapy — I try to stay close to where the person is.
So, philosophy is part of my formation — it is all part of how I approach the work.
Jacobsen: How often do you enter a session with an unresolved philosophical flaw?
Cahana: My thesis was on Frantz Fanon — specifically Fanonian decolonial therapy and what that might look like. There is some very good work happening these days trying to retrieve Fanon’s psychotherapeutic practice because he was an analyst in Tunisia and Algeria, which is amazing. Yes — he engaged in what is called institutional psychotherapy.
Jacobsen: Anyway, in Algeria, there were French colleagues, right?
Cahana: Yes. Fanon was from Martinique, and he went to Algeria. He taught and practiced there. He has some extraordinary psychotherapeutic writing that is now being unearthed in psychotherapy. Fanon was largely relegated to political philosophy for a long time — which is one truth about him — but he was a full person and a psychotherapist. A psychiatrist, to be exact.
Many of those thinkers crossed disciplines quite fluidly. The terms people used for fields then did not necessarily mean what we mean today. They were more invested in being polymaths—Renaissance people—deeply studied in ancient and modern eras.
Today, we expect specialization. And because of that, we have, in many ways, lost the art of the polymath. We are astonished when we meet one now — we call them a genius. There is a kind of enigmatic, heterodox quality to a public intellectual who spans fields, knows astrophysics and loves poetry. It is so charming.
It probably protects against a narrow, mechanical way of thinking — what you might call a “bug mind.” A vaguely mystical persona is behind it, but it comes from spending time in the crossovers between disciplines. That is where the richness lies.
I do not disparage it — it is a rare and beautiful quality. It is outrageous in the best sense. And yes, you are right that it feels mystical. I aspire to be more well-rounded all the time. I want to borrow from everything. It is so beautiful that there are so many disciplines. I try to keep my curiosity supple.
Jacobsen: That ties back to what we discussed — the earlier question about philosophers you read before entering a session or how philosophy informs your practice. When dealing with someone one-on-one, you are, in a sense, mostly anonymized to them outside of your title, right? Yet you provide support that does not carry the same pressures or commitments others do.
Another part is a two-parter: How does Foucault build into your work a little more? Second, do you ever get into the thickets of philosophy if you are with a client who is a graduate student in psychotherapy, philosophy, or a related field?
Cahana: If a graduate student comes to me and talks about their intellectual magic — that rush of discovery — I am excited. But I am also attentive to what is happening beneath it. I think: Why are we attaching so much to the intellectual? What is happening in the heart space?
There is always something meaningful going on beneath the intellectual fervour. Honouring intelligence and excitement is as important as staying attuned to what is happening emotionally, relationally, and existentially.
I will certainly engage—I am engaged—but I try to stay centred on the person and their experience. Right? Because I do not want to reinforce the idea that people must articulate themselves perfectly. They do not need to attach to Nietzsche’s words—always Nietzsche—to find affirmation, belonging, meaning, purpose, or drive. They already have those things internally.
So it becomes another delicate choreography — lifting the symphony of knowledge that exists in the world while also pushing it aside enough to stay present with someone’s relationships, their seeking, and their vision for their life.
Yes, suffering can happen when someone over-intellectualizes and ties their ego to that place—especially at the ripe stage of life when someone is a graduate student or even an undergraduate student just entering the adult world. The first fruits they taste are these gorgeous ideas that they internalize so deeply that they might overspend or over-rely on them.
It would be true if we were talking about choreographers, not just philosophers. If someone is trying so hard to replicate a choreographer in their dancing, I would also start talking to them about their style. You cannot be Pina Bausch. You cannot be Alvin Ailey. You have to be yourself. It is not about replication but refining how you will present your gifts to the world.
Jacobsen: How often do people who come to therapy present a false self? Or maybe it is better to say: is it more like a dial than a switch — not a simple yes or no? To what degree does this happen?
Cahana: Yes. I do not know if people who come to therapy do it more or less than anyone else.
The statistics suggest that people often lie to their therapists, which is horrifying. I will not give a hard number here, but I accept that people may lie, especially in a short-term relationship. If you are only in therapy for ten weeks and then it ends, there is little perceived consequence to that lying.
But in an ongoing, curated, cultivated therapeutic relationship — which is my philosophy — the relationship itself becomes the vehicle for healing. Building that relationship takes time. I do not expect anyone to trust me in the first session. I do not.
In the same way that we might have fleeting trust with a stranger on a plane or a sweet interaction with a grocery clerk, initial trust in therapy can be superficial. True trust in the therapeutic relationship takes sustained time and care.
I would not assume that initial presentations are fully authentic—they can be genuine slices of someone’s life, but I would never assume that they represent the full relationship.
Once we hit the six-month, one-year, or two-year mark—and for sure at five years, though I have not yet had the blessing of that longevity as a psychotherapist—I imagine that if there is lying, I will be able to detect it. Then, I can find gentle and loving ways to act as someone’s mirror. The goal is to be a mirror so clients can see themselves in new lights and fashion new selves.
We want to stay supple and creative without denying that there is a truth out there. It is not relativism, so I situate myself within existentialism — ontology and phenomenology — as opposed to other philosophical camps. I identify most with ontology.
Jacobsen: What about those who come into session and are not consciously lying? They are deluded — and their self is deluded — so what they present is not necessarily clearly false, but eventually, it becomes apparent that something is not fully true. Yet they believe their own presented falsehood or not-self.
Cahana: I believe there is a delay in those cases — a delay in the full emergence of the authentic relationship. I know how to suspend disbelief, of course. I listen to the noble self trying to emerge and honour that with dignity. I would not immediately confront or dismantle it. Through that process — through honouring and holding space — a newer, more integrated version can eventually emerge.
But again, people are not fixed. There are stormy periods in people’s lives when they become different versions of themselves. When someone articulates that there is a past version of themselves, I believe them. I believe in people’s pasts and futures. I believe in the potential of whom they can become and invest in honouring their account of their past struggles.
Therapy is a world constructed with words but also grounded in real-time experience. So if something is incongruent — if someone says something I do not directly experience with them — my first instinct is to believe them. It is more important that I believe them than that I try to fix them at the moment.
I have worked with many clients, including people with disabilities, whose lived realities are often marginalized or encroached upon by the world. Often, people see themselves as infinitely more capable than society allows them to be, and there is real conflict there. I am a strong advocate. I am always on the side of the person.
Institutions — and we have discussed this — often encroach on individual freedom.
There are so many cases in which people are experiencing profound anxiety. I remember when I was in training, working with clients with disabilities who were aging and dually diagnosed. Every day, at the same time, they would experience profound anxiety about transportation.
Obviously, it was not their deficiency — they were anxious because they relied on the public transportation system. They depended on a van to take them from point A to point B. Sometimes the van was late, sometimes early, and often there was no clear communication.
If you looked at that one slice of experience and said, Oh my gosh, every day at 4:00 PM, you’re anxious — you must be paranoid; that would be ridiculous. It would be preposterous, honestly. It was crucial to understand that their interaction with the world was deeply threatening — that they were profoundly dependent on and vulnerable to a system. Sometimes, the van driver might even yell at them without warning. They lived in a precarious state of dependence.
I was present at that transitional, liminal point. My interventions were simple and human: I would play music by the window, sit together, and sing—Michael Jackson or whatever they wanted. I entered their world.
I did not dare to believe that I was an expert coming in to label them paranoid, delusional, or any other stigmatizing word. I was their advocate. That was my role.
Now, I also work with clients in hospice, at the precipice of death. Sometimes, people have visions at that threshold. They call their ancestors and descendants into the room — and they see them.
I am committed to seeing them, too. If you are talking to your mother and feel you are a child again, then you are talking to your mother. I want to know what she is saying. I want to be there with you.
In the Heideggerian sense, I am happy to enter someone’s lifeworld. That feels like my duty as a psychotherapist: to enter someone’s world, not to descend from above, prescribing what I believe reality to be.
At the same time, there is truth. I am not the sole holder of truth, but there is a capital Truth—an ontology—and we are all striving to figure out what that ontological cosmology might be within the order of everything. There is ontology, and there is phenomenology. I privilege both to create a form of existentialism.
Jacobsen: Where do existentialism and Jewish philosophy match, and where do they not?
Cahana: It is hard to say because Jewish philosophy is so ancient. Both share some deep roots. You can even trace the lineage of existentialism back to thinkers like Parmenides.
But more practically, the clearer points of intersection arose in the nineteenth and twentieth centuries, when Jewish philosophers began consciously borrowing from and shaping existentialist models.
Walter Benjamin—I do not know if I would call him an existential philosopher exactly, but he is a beautiful philosopher. He was a Jewish philosopher who wrote about history, aura, and technology. You can see existential themes throughout his work, partially because he was writing in the context of the Second World War.
He has been a big inspiration to me.
However, if we look for points of divergence between existentialism and Jewish philosophy, we will see that Jewish philosophy tends to believe in essence. There is an idea of an essence that is divinely imbued. I have found ways to harmonize existentialism with a notion of essence—maybe a kind of apologia—but it is not a simple match.
Both Jewish philosophy and existentialism care deeply about being and duty on earth. Even within the idea of the messianic promise in Jewish thought — the potentiality — you could see a point of confluence: the sense of an ever-shifting world, a current state, and a transformative future. There is reality and a kind of meta-reality always at play. Wisdom, perhaps, sits at the center.
So, yes, there are many confluence points, and there are divergences in the details.
Jacobsen: Who do you think is the most consequential psychotherapist who has taken on either existentialism, Jewish philosophy — or both?
Cahana: I am trying my best to name someone other than Viktor Frankl, but it is hard. Whoever scrawled that famous phrase on the prison walls — “He who has a why to live can bear almost any how” — we owe him acknowledgment. Frankl is famously at the intersection of existentialism and Jewish philosophical thought. He always centred the question of meaning — the why.
Of course, Irvin Yalom also comes to mind. He is deeply steeped in Jewish tradition and is one of the foremost existential psychotherapists today. He has written interesting novels that explore these themes—for example, his novel on Spinoza. Yalom is a prolific, beautiful writer, constantly producing work that blends philosophy and psychotherapy.
So yes, maybe Yalom and Viktor Frankl. No one is more classically existential and changed the field of existential psychotherapy as profoundly as Frankl did.
Jacobsen: Do you find that a psychotherapist’s geographic and cultural context changes the flavor of their existential or Jewish philosophy—or even the character of their psychotherapy?
Cahana: Yes. Even doing therapy in a different language changes it. Even in the same cultural context but switching languages, I notice different selves emerging. Different expectations and norms around language and interaction come to the surface, subtly but profoundly shifting the flavour of the therapeutic encounter.
Yes, definitely. Language constructs reality — and culture constructs reality, too—expectations, ideology — going back to earlier ideas. I do not always frame it this way in therapy, but I can say it here: our presentation is bound by institutions and ideological commitments. We may be returning to Lacan.
One of Lacan’s famous ideas is that one of the most challenging moments in a person’s life is when, as a baby, they see themselves in a mirror and realize, Oh my gosh, that person in the mirror is also me. The amorphous, gaseous being they feel themselves to be — with feelings, thoughts, and experiences — becomes attached to a physical form that other people perceive.
So yes, culture and the external world shape who we are. There is no question that in my work — in the effort to birth the self anew — we are also working within embeddedness, facticity, and the given conditions of the world.
But the world is still creative and supple. There are backdoors and labyrinths we can navigate differently. It is not fixed. Everything is in motion—transition, flux, fluidity.
Jacobsen: Do certain contexts tend to produce a self that is more rigid, less pliable than others — so that a therapeutic context, if you are trying to move from a dysfunctional self toward something more authentic and functional, takes more time?
Cahana: For sure. Now, we are getting into Simone de Beauvoir. Right? There is infinite human potential, but then facticity — the concrete conditions of life — constructs and limits who we are, making change more challenging.
Her philosophy emphasizes that being is difficult. You are not born a woman; you become one. You are transformed into an Other. Fanon shares a similar flavour in his thinking: we are otherized.
As an Other, you are both imprisoned and, paradoxically, free to maneuver within certain constraints. So yes, absolutely — context can harden the self and make therapeutic transformation slower and more complex.
But I have to say — and I want to be clear — I fully recognize that we are socio-temporal beings and that intersectional identities play an enormous part in who we are. Intersectionality is not an addendum; it is foundational. Evaluating how identities interact, conjoin, and localize within a single embodied experience is essential.
Yet, I do not believe that intersectional identity is purely deterministic, either. Movement, potential, and creativity exist — even within deeply embedded realities. Hospice has taught me that I can go into so many different people’s rooms, and frankly, I am very aware of social theory and how social identity gets constructed. I know that.
And yet, each individual is so, so, so unique — truly unique.
A certain category of being is not more willing to grow than another category of being. There is embeddedness, of course, but growth depends far more on personality, resilience, and individual outlook. And then, yes, culture influences how people articulate their experiences.
But when I move from room to room, it feels like a pilgrimage. I meet people who are HIV positive, people from all sorts of backgrounds and identities where you might think, oh, that must mean X — and I am constantly surprised. I am constantly surprised by how people articulate their lives, how their outcomes unfold, and what a good death looks like for them — or what a bad death looks like.
Jacobsen: Do you find any through-lines or common threads in what people consider a good life and a bad life, especially in their reflections in hindsight?
Cahana: Yes. People care about relationships. When relationships are unresolved, there is often despair — but not always. I cannot even say always. I have seen people who are fully accepting of estranged relationships, and I have been surprised and often deeply touched.
Still, people generally care about their social relationships. They want to be in good standing with their community. They mostly want to feel settled in terms of their finances and affairs. They do not want to be a burden.
Maintaining dignity in the final chapter of life is highly important. Many people who are undergoing the death and dying process want to do it gracefully. People have different relationships to what grace and dignity look like, but whatever dignity they hold onto, they want it respected by the community where they are dying.
Jacobsen: What about the cases where the individual is — or has been for a while — disintegrating in real time? Cases of dementia, brain cancer, Alzheimer’s, and so on? What does a good death look like in those situations?
A subquestion beneath that: in such cases, does the dignity of the death rely more on the meaning that dignity has for those around them since the person is disappearing?
Cahana: Yes. We live in a world where people know these outcomes are possible, and many people plan for how they want to be seen when they become vulnerable in these ways.
I often hear family members say, “This is what they told us they wanted,” I feel grateful when they guide me in honouring a person’s will—either as a retained memory or a formal directive.
I have had many beautiful encounters where family members tell me who the person was. They will say, “This is my partner,” “This is my mom,” or “This is my dad.” Even if that person now has dementia or is non-verbal, they want me to know the fullness of their life. They want me to see their loved ones as they are now and truly are—the loved, vibrant, complex person they were.
I try to make that the point — to attune to what the person wants and stay loyal to their expressed or implied wishes. Because ultimately, it is their death. It is not only about someone else’s grief or the family’s loss — it is about the individual’s journey.
Jacobsen: That touches on people’s relations to various collectivities. In Jewish history — not only Jewish philosophy — there are these various arcs: tragedy, overcoming, and triumph. Ebbs and flows across generations. Does that pattern — that historical rhythm — also get embedded into people’s sense of self, whether in hospice in their last days or in therapy, looking to reintegrate in a new way? Do those broader patterns get brought into session or interaction?
Cahana: Absolutely. People bring whatever material is meaningful for them.
We all project onto others — especially when occupying the position of the other for someone; it happens. When people know that I am Jewish, for instance, they might make certain assumptions about me. They might assume aspects of my life history or even recognize family names or connections.
The truth is, it can be both a hindrance and an enhancement. It depends on the therapeutic encounter.
Sometimes, someone wants to be seen by a fellow Jewish person at that moment—to feel that kinship and community. And sometimes, that shared identity can enhance the healing process.
But it can also be a hindrance. It can create a fog between self and other, between subject and other, obscuring the therapeutic work that needs to happen. So, it depends. I am very careful and tentative about when I invoke shared identity and when I do not.
Jacobsen: My buddy Rick Rosner—the one I mentioned earlier who wrote for Jimmy Kimmel for twelve years—and I often have a session or conversation every night or every other night, covering a wide range of topics.
He is Reform Jewish. I share a namesake with the founder of Reform Judaism, Israel Jacobson, who was born around 1810 in Germany. At least etymologically, there is just a slight letter change from “e” to “o.”
Anyway, when I asked Rick what he believes, his response — consistently — has been: We don’t know what we’re supposed to believe. Coming out of Conservative and Orthodox Judaism, there is a different theological framing and upbringing.
So, if we were to parse these three ways—Reform, Conservative, and particularly Orthodox Judaism—how well do they mesh with existentialism and psychotherapy?
Cahana: The philosophical differences between Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox Judaism are significant, but they are often treated as less divisive because there is a communal sense — a broader tent that we still share.
I believe a deep connection to the world of doing remains across all three streams—Reform, Conservative, and Orthodox. That is an important distinction.
In Christianity, there is this concept that one circumcises the heart — that belief is internal, centred in the mind or spirit.
In Judaism, particularly across all streams, the focus is more on orthopraxy — correct practice — rather than orthodoxy— correct belief. We emphasize that what you do matters and how you live matters.
That orientation naturally harmonizes more easily with existentialism and psychotherapy because existentialism is also deeply concerned with how one acts, chooses, and lives in an often ambiguous world.
It is about mastery over the earth and being fully in the world. There is a delay in knowing what happens in the divine realm, but we are not so concerned with that.
Of course, there are rabbis, thinkers, and mystics who are deeply concerned with what the divine world looks like, who engage in creative theological play and explore the love of the divine. But ultimately, our task is to fix the world (tikkun olam). It is on us.
All people must be part of the world’s healing—it is not the responsibility of one individual alone. It is a communal prerogative and imperative.
Jacobsen: Last question: How can an existentialist psychotherapist reconcile the absolute transcendent authority of Torah min ha-Shamayim (Torah from Heaven) with the therapeutic imperative to foster personal freedom, authentic choice, and self-derived meaning — particularly for those drawing upon Orthodox Jewish beliefs? How does the Orthodox existential psychotherapist reconcile these tensions?
Cahana: It is not as hard as it might seem within Jewish thought because so much of Orthodox Judaism is built around studying the cacophony of different voices across history.
There is an acknowledgment that the Torah is divine, but it is always studied alongside centuries of traditions, responsa, and commentary — a cacophony of voices. An eleventh-century rabbi is in conversation with a fifteenth-century rabbi, and sometimes one ruling is followed, sometimes another. Each community has its rabbi and its interpretive lineage.
Navigating how freedom and identity intersect with communal expectations can be complicated.
Much of my work with Orthodox Jewish clients revolves around navigating what one is expecting or hoping from the community and what expects or hopes from the individual.
I may draw on my knowledge because I come from within that inner language. It is not as black-and-white as it might seem — even if people wear black and white.
Jacobsen: Or in the artistic style of a Ghibli movie.
Cahana: [Laughing] Yes.
Jacobsen: Thank you.
Cahana: Fantastic. Thank you so much, Scott. This was so much fun. Yes, if you have different topics in mind, we can explore them. Your interview style was really fun, and I appreciate it.
Jacobsen: Thank you.
Cahana: Ciao.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/26
Kuty Shalev is the Founder and CEO of Lumenalta. Lumenalta defines emotional intelligence (EQ) in IT as the ability to navigate complex, high-stakes collaborations with empathy, adaptability, and self-awareness, combined with technical communication and problem-solving skills. They integrate EQ into daily workflows through simulation-based coaching and commitment-based communication, ensuring clear articulation of concerns and concrete commitments aligned with business outcomes. This approach fosters stakeholder alignment, reduces ambiguity, and improves client satisfaction. Despite challenges like strict deadlines and remote work barriers, IT leaders report significant benefits. Leadership plays a key role by modeling effective communication and continuously reinforcing EQ through coaching and mentoring. Overall, this strategy transforms IT culture.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How does Lumenalta define emotional intelligence within IT teams?
Kuty Shalev: At Lumenalta, we see emotional intelligence (EQ) as the ability to navigate complex, high-stakes collaborations with empathy, adaptability, and self-awareness. It’s not just about interpersonal skills—it’s about creating an environment where technical and non-technical team members can align on priorities, manage conflict constructively, and drive innovation.
A key part of our approach is commitment-based communication. This means that instead of vague discussions or assumptions, our teams are trained to articulate their concerns clearly, identify the hidden concerns of others, and create commitments that are specific, validated, and aligned with business outcomes. This structured way of communicating ensures that nothing is left ambiguous—whether in a client meeting, a project plan, or even when prompting an AI model.
Jacobsen: Does this differ much from more general definitions of emotional intelligence?
Shalev: Yes, in many ways. While general definitions of emotional intelligence focus on self-awareness, empathy, and interpersonal effectiveness, EQ within IT teams also encompasses technical communication, problem-solving under pressure, and cross-cultural collaboration—especially in remote environments. IT professionals must translate technical concepts into business outcomes, prioritize conflicting demands, and adapt to evolving requirements—all of which require a blend of emotional and cognitive intelligence.
Jacobsen: How have IT leaders overcome the challenge of strict deadlines limiting the development of EQ?
Shalev: Lumenalta has tackled this challenge by integrating EQ development directly into how teams work. Instead of separating “soft skills” training from technical training, we embed emotional intelligence into real-world practice. For example, our teams participate in simulation-based coaching that mimics high-pressure client scenarios, helping them refine their communication, negotiation, and problem-solving skills in real time. This ensures that EQ development isn’t an extracurricular activity—it’s a core part of how we deliver results.
Jacobsen: What companies have integrated EQ into IT culture to provide measurable improvements?
Shalev: Many forward-thinking organizations have embraced EQ-driven approaches to IT. Our own experience at Lumenalta has shown that when developers are trained to navigate stakeholder dynamics, project outcomes improve. According to our research, 87% of IT leaders reported that
investing in EQ directly improved client satisfaction, and 81% saw a positive impact on technology adoption. Companies that embed emotional intelligence into daily workflows—rather than relying on one-off training—see the most significant gains.
Jacobsen: What factors can blunt the positive effects of improved EQ in the IT workplace?
Shalev: One major factor is a lack of structural reinforcement. If EQ training isn’t backed by a workplace culture that values open communication, psychological safety, and constructive feedback, it won’t stick. Another challenge is time pressure—if teams are constantly in reactive mode, they may default to transactional communication rather than thoughtful collaboration. Finally, hybrid and remote work environments can create EQ barriers if companies don’t establish clear norms for engagement and relationship-building.
Jacobsen: How are facets of emotional intelligence—self-awareness, adaptability, and empathy—quantified and measured to improve workplace productivity?
Shalev: One way Lumenalta measures the impact of EQ training is through the clarity and effectiveness of communication. Are teams making and keeping better commitments? Are they reducing ambiguity in client interactions? Are they proactively uncovering concerns before they become roadblocks?
Interestingly, this same discipline in language and clarity extends to AI development. The best AI outputs come from well-structured prompts, and the ability to construct these prompts effectively comes from the same EQ skills we cultivate in our teams. A great AI prompt, much like a great commitment, is clear, concise, and validated against the outcomes we are targeting.
Jacobsen: Do generational culture differences affect the workforce perception of EQ in IT teams?
Shalev: Absolutely. Younger IT professionals often expect EQ to be embedded into company culture and value ongoing coaching, while more experienced team members may have developed technical expertise in environments where EQ wasn’t prioritized. Our research found that perspectives on
EQ varied based on years of experience, but across the board, IT leaders recognized its importance—90% said it was essential for success.
Jacobsen: How can leadership and management style foster more emotionally intelligent work environments in tech companies?
Shalev: Leadership plays a crucial role in setting the tone for EQ in IT teams. At Lumenalta, we focus on leading by example—our senior engineers and product leads model effective communication, client engagement, and conflict resolution. We also emphasize continuous learning, using both AI-powered coaching tools and human-led mentoring to reinforce key EQ skills. Creating an
environment where engineers feel heard, valued, and empowered to solve problems autonomously is key to long-term success.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Kuty.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/25
Richard Taite, founder and executive chairman of Carrara Treatment Wellness & Spa, who reframes addiction recovery as a “love call” rather than shame-based intervention. Taite discusses his own recovery, Carrara’s whole-body approach, and innovations like in-the-moment clinical support. He critiques misconceptions about therapy, highlights podcast success, and underscores the need for compassion and tailored care—especially for high-profile clients. The conversation emphasizes authentic, holistic models in mental health, especially amid a rising mental health crisis.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You’ve often described addiction recovery as “love first.” Does this reshape the traditional rehab model?
Richard Taite: It’s not “love first” rather a “love call” and yes, it does reshape the traditional rehab model.
People come in broken and full of shame. I’m not kicking a horse when they’re down, that makes no sense to me.
You love them, nurture them and cheerleader for them and move them gently through the process of becoming their best selves.
Jacobsen: Is this essential as a reframe in today’s mental health crisis?
Taite: It should be. This is one of the innovations I brought to treatment and I am so committed to it. For example, I developed a client care team of clinicians to walk around Carrara, look for the person with their head in their hands and do a session right there, in the moment. This helps us to contain situations before they snowball and provides immediate relief.
Jacobsen: Your podcast is We’re Out of Time. It is #3 on Apple’s Mental Health charts. What resonates with audiences about conversations on addiction and recovery?
Taite: I think it’s helped that I’ve never listened or watched a podcast prior to starting mine. I’ve been a guest on multiple podcasts, but it’s different when you’re a guest as opposed to when you’re hosting. Because I’ve never listened to another podcast there’s no influence on me whatsoever so maybe it’s what separates me in a competitive space.
But I will tell you that my podcast is completely authentic and honest and even uncomfortable at times… I’m not here to judge but to listen to these stories, understand my guests’ trauma and offer them a new perspective. The way I tackle this tough subject (addiction) must resonate with my audience deeply. I have a hard time believing after only 7 1/2 months that we’re the number three mental health Podcast in the country… I’m still getting my head around it.
Jacobsen: Mental Health Awareness Month brings attention to systemic issues. What misconceptions sit amongst public commentariat about addiction and mental illness?
Taite: Anyone who has a negative outlook on treatment or therapy just doesn’t know better. It’s a negative talking point that simply does not exist much anymore.
Therapy isn’t something you have to do. It’s something you GET to do. It is the ultimate luxury, and it is how elegant men and women, who want the best for themselves, deal with their stressors in life so they don’t create unnecessary wreckage.
Jacobsen: How has your journey informed leadership at Carrara Treatment?
Taite: I lost a quarter of a century to drug addiction and have been sober for 22 years now… That’s not anecdotal, that’s field research. I don’t think I know. I know, I know. It was important that we had the most effective treatment model in the most comfortable setting to do some uncomfortable work.
But with respect to leadership, our CEO Candy Henderson is our leader. I may be the executive chairman and founder, but I serve at her pleasure and that’s the way I’ve always done it…. She’s the best CEO I’ve ever had, by miles!
Jacobsen: Is recovery a long-term thing, a short-term deal, or somehow an admixture but in different ways?
Taite: What an excellent question.
So there’s a framework called The Transtheoretical Model, it is the step-by-step process in which behavioral change occurs. This model shows you exactly where you are in your arc of recovery.
So for example, someone who is coming in to get the heat off, a husband who is in trouble with his employer or his wife is sick and tired of his behavior, but he doesn’t believe he’s got a problem, he’s gonna need 90 days.
But the guy coming in who has had enough and he’s just tired of living a life of substance abuse, or alcoholism, that guy needs 30 days.
This is oversimplified, but you get the idea.
Jacobsen: You emphasize a whole body approach. What does that mean to treatment?
Taite: It means we don’t just treat the addiction. We treat the whole person.
The goal for most treatment centers is simply to get you sober, but all the pain that was keeping you sick is still there… That’s a tortured life.
At Carrara, we look at everything. Emotional trauma, nervous system regulation, gut health, sleep patterns, hormonal imbalances, spiritual emptiness, relationships, and much more. Every system in the body and brain is connected.
Our entire team works together to restore the entire person. It’s holistic, meaning the whole body is treated because addiction doesn’t live in just one part of a person.
Jacobsen: You’ve worked with high-profile clients and public figures. How does public prominence impact these issues? Any particular cases of recovery for public people that show a positive path in your experience.
Taite: High profile clients and public figures are not going to the average run of the mill rehab or even a high-end rehab. They want the best of everything. Carrara is one of one, it was built that way. For an ultra high net worth individual Carrara is their only choice. But the public at large looks down on this and they think if you’re not willing to humble yourself and go through the grind that you don’t deserve to be sober.
I’ve been told… ‘But Rich, you never went to a fancy rehab, you went to an all men’s sober living’. And that’s true. But I was at a different place in my life, I wasn’t the same guy I am today and today I would never have gone to that sober living. Does that mean I have to die or end up in jail just because I’m not willing to humble myself and go to some substandard facility? That only sounds stupid when you say it out loud right?
As far as cases of recovery for public people that show positive results, it happens every day.
But guarding our clients privacy is of paramount importance so you’re never getting an example out of me.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Richard.
—
Start your Recovery
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/25
UC Riverside professor Kevin Esterling, creator of Prytaneum, talks about an AI-powered webinar platform built to foster inclusive, deliberative public discourse. Designed at the TeCD-Lab and inspired by ancient democratic principles, Prytaneum enables real-time audience participation and AI synthesis of diverse viewpoints—reshaping how civic engagement happens online. Esterling shares insights from working with Congress, the Department of Education, and public agencies, and reflects on the technical, financial, and conceptual challenges of developing such a platform. He envisions partnerships focused on high-quality communication and data collection—not just market-ready tech.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here with Kevin Esterling, professor of public policy and political science at UC Riverside, where he leads the Laboratory for Technology, Communication, and Democracy—TeCD-Lab. He developed Prytaneum, an AI-powered webinar platform inspired by ancient democratic practices that synthesize participant responses to ensure inclusive public discourse. Prytaneum enables meaningful dialogue in large online meetings by capturing and categorizing all voices, not just the loudest.
Supported by the National Science Foundation, Democracy Fund, and others, Esterling’s work advances what he calls “directly representative democracy,” fostering two-way communication between citizens and policymakers.
Thank you for joining me today. As mentioned in the introduction, what inspired the development of Prytaneum?
Kevin Esterling: About fifteen years ago, I received an NSF grant that funded a project where we worked with both the U.S. Congress and individual members of Congress to develop best practices for how elected officials could use webinar platforms to conduct more constructive public meetings with their constituents.
My background is in deliberative democracy. In my field, we focus on designing institutions that enable people to interact more deliberatively. That project used commercially available webinar technology, which was still new at the time. We developed a set of best-practice recommendations to make these public meetings more constructive.
It was a complete NSF-funded project. We published several papers and even a book titled Politics with the People, co-authored by Michael Neblo and David Lazer, my two collaborators. The project was successful.
We conducted a randomized controlled trial by having members of Congress implement our best practices to host a series of town halls. For each member of Congress hosting a town hall, we partnered with a survey firm to select a representative sample of constituents from their district. Some were randomly invited to attend the town hall, while others were not.
This allowed us to rigorously evaluate the effects of participating in such town halls—whether people were satisfied and whether there were democratic benefits. We found many positive outcomes: the meetings attracted a broad cross-section of the constituency, participants learned from one another, valued the experience, and believed the process benefited democracy.
Public officials liked the meetings. The project was a success, but when it ended, there was still room for improvement. We had been using commercially available webinar platforms, but I recognized a fundamental limitation—something built into the technology—that restricted our ability to make public meetings more deliberative.
The core issue is that existing webinar platforms were never designed with democratic engagement in mind. A typical webinar is ideal for a speaker to broadcast a message to an audience. A public official, for example, can inform constituents about their policies or positions. However, as anyone who has ever attended a webinar knows, it is a terrible format for audience members to meaningfully speak back to the speaker.
As a political scientist working in democratic theory, I saw a mismatch between our technology and the kind of democratic engagement we were trying to achieve.
That realization led me to seek new solutions. I received a small seed grant from the Democracy Fund, a funding agency based in Washington, DC, to build a prototype of what is now Prytaneum. The idea was to rethink the webinar from the ground up—to redesign it in a way that gives constituents a stronger voice in policymaking, in real-time, during a meeting. At the same time, the technology had to encourage constructive engagement with the content being discussed.
So, Prytaneum is designed to elevate constituent voices and guide them into meaningful, organized dialogue.
Since then, I have received additional grants, and we’ve developed the platform further. I initially approached it as a political scientist—a project to improve public meetings. However, once the platform was built, I realized that the underlying communication problem we were solving wasn’t limited to policymaking or government.
Any speaker, in any setting—whether online or in person—wants to understand what their audience is thinking. But no technology has enabled mutual learning or real-time insight into audience sentiment. Prytaneum solves that broader, more universal communication challenge.
Jacobsen: Have there been real-world applications—such as with the California Mental Health Services Oversight and Accountability Commission?
Esterling: Yes. I received a grant to help fund the data science component of Prytaneum, specifically for integrating large language model artificial intelligence to support facilitators in curating participant input. We piloted this with the California Mental Health Services Oversight and Accountability Commission. They regularly host public meetings and were looking for ways to improve the quality of public engagement. Our collaboration helped them do just that.
The California Mental Health Services Oversight and Accountability Commission team advised us as we explored how to integrate AI into the curation process. We then hosted several demonstration town halls last summer to test the system.
I also have a separate grant from the Department of Education, through which we used Prytaneum without the AI component. In that case, we focused solely on the engagement features—the front end—as part of a curriculum module developed through the grant. The program enabled high school seniors to meet with their members of Congress as a capstone event that culminated in a three-week curriculum.
The students went through the curriculum, learning about the issue they would be discussing, the role of representatives in a democracy, and key elements of analytical reasoning. The final event was a virtual town hall on Prytaneum, where they debated the issue with their member of Congress. It was a multi-year project, and thousands of students participated using the platform.
Jacobsen: How does the AI distinguish between popular opinions and minority perspectives during these discussions?
Esterling: That’s a great question. One of the core problems with public meetings is that the people who show up are almost always unrepresentative of the broader community that the speaker wants to reach. You especially see this in local government settings—city council or planning department meetings—where the loudest or most affluent voices often dominate.
We designed Prytaneum to ensure a broader range of community perspectives are heard. One of the primary tools we use is our polling feature. When a speaker launches a poll, participants not only select their preferred option but also write a reason explaining why they support that choice.
So, we are not just collecting answers—we are capturing the reasoning behind those answers. The AI then synthesizes and summarizes these written justifications for each available option. Even if only a small minority selects a specific response, their reasoning is surfaced and shared with the entire group.
This helps ensure that all perspectives—not just the most common ones—are represented. It also allows participants to encounter reasoning that may differ from their own, helping them step outside their echo chambers.
Jacobsen: And things are often said differently depending on the language and cultural context. The texture of language can emphasize different nuances. Is Prytaneum planning to incorporate multilingual or accessibility features to support that?
Esterling: Yes—thank you for asking. Currently, Prytaneum offers real-time translation between English and Spanish. Participants can choose to participate in either language.
Yes, everything is translated in real-time. And thanks to large language models, machine translation today is much more accurate than it was a few years ago. It works pretty well.
If we can secure more funding, our long-term hope is to make Prytaneum fully language-neutral. Ideally, users would select their preferred language from a dropdown menu, and everything would be presented in that language. I believe that’s absolutely essential to making the platform globally inclusive.
Jacobsen: What were some of the challenges you faced in building Prytaneum?
Esterling: There were several—three major ones.
The first is funding. My lab operates on a very tight budget—a classic underfunded academic lab scenario. If I had a full team of engineers, there would be so much more we could build, but development moves slowly because of limited resources.
The second challenge was technical. Building a platform where many people can simultaneously submit content and then have that content distributed in real time to everyone else’s computer is complex. We had to build a backend that supports real-time updates across many users without lag or data conflict.
Prytaneum is also fully collaborative, meaning multiple users interact with the same content simultaneously. This introduces another layer of complexity, so we had to design the system to prevent conflicts when people engage simultaneously with the interface.
The third and perhaps the most significant challenge is conceptual. We hold a weekly design team meeting to explore how to translate our normative aspirations—inclusivity, deliberative equality, and constructive engagement—into actual design features.
What we’re really trying to do is solve a problem that no one has attempted before: how to make it possible for everyone in a meeting to understand each other at the same time. That’s a conceptual puzzle that has taken a lot of thought and iteration. Much of our work has gone into understanding the problem before translating that into technical design.
Jacobsen: Labs are perpetually underfunded. Even businesses face scale-related limitations. What kind of business partnership would help you scale Prytaneum as a research platform and as a broader product?
Esterling: If you look at the webinar market today—and I will not name names—you’ll notice something striking: there’s almost no differentiation between the major platforms used for large-scale meetings. They all function in essentially the same way.
They all essentially do the same thing. So, Prytaneum offers a chance to fundamentally rethink the webinar industry. It has the potential to shift how the entire sector conceptualizes the purpose and design of communication platforms.
For me, the ideal partner would be a corporate collaborator interested in reimagining communication—not someone chasing short-term profit, but someone who cares about making communication more effective. Ideally, this would be a company that values high-quality data collection—a company that sees the benefit in creating environments where people interact meaningfully, leading to deeper insights about how they think and make decisions.
Such a company could use those insights to improve its own products or services. So, rather than seeking a quick return on investment through a flashy app, this would be a partner committed to data collection the right way—using a platform that encourages authentic, constructive engagement.
Here’s another way to think about it: On most webinar platforms today, audience members—everyone who is not a panellist—are expected to be passive observers. There are very few opportunities for active participation. And when people are passive, they are not cognitively engaged; they are simply watching, not processing or reasoning deeply about the content.
Now, imagine using AI to mine audience input in real time on a traditional webinar platform. The data you collect will be superficial if the audience is not mentally engaged. It becomes a classic “garbage in, garbage out” problem. The AI might process those inputs, but the outputs will lack meaningful insight.
By contrast, Prytaneum’s design actively fosters deeper engagement. The audience is asked to think critically, contribute reasoning, and reflect on different perspectives. As a result, the platform can generate much richer, higher-quality data. That’s the core of our pitch to potential partners: this is not just a better communication tool—it is a tool for collecting better data because it encourages better thinking.
Jacobsen: What else can I ask? How can organizations and communities access Prytaneum?
Esterling: Well, right now, Prytaneum is a research platform. We use it primarily for continued development—especially to improve the large language model integrations.
And to clarify, everyone other than me calls it Pry-TAY-neum. My collaborators say it that way. Everyone I speak with says it that way. But for some reason, I say PRY-taneum. I named it, but apparently, I have no control over how it is pronounced! That’s okay—I’ve accepted it.
We are currently reviewing grant proposals to take the next step: using Prytaneum as a platform to collect better data and further improve the language models themselves. It also functions as a testbed—a proof-of-concept platform for organizations that want to experiment with more inclusive and intelligent online engagement.
I say “proof of concept” intentionally. My lab has one software developer. We’re not a tech company. So, we cannot promise that Prytaneum is ready for market deployment with full customer support and all the bells and whistles.
Organizations using it would need to accept it as-is. That said, they can visit the website—I believe you have the URL for it—where there are video demos showing how the platform works in practice.
If an organization is interested in using Prytaneum, they can contact me directly. If the interest aligns with our goals, we could issue a license that would allow them to create and host meetings. A permit is required to initiate new meetings, so collaboration is key.
Jacobsen: Kevin, thank you very much for your time today. It was great to meet you, and I appreciate you walking me through this cutting-edge development in the evolution of webinar platforms.
Esterling: Awesome. Yes, thank you so much, Scott.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/24
Jamie Wright is a Los Angeles-based attorney specializing in labor and employment law, focusing on wage and hour litigation and contract disputes. She is a partner at Millennial Government Affairs, providing crisis communication and legal strategies for political and corporate clients. Jamie is also the founder of The Wright Law Firm. Wright discusses the federal lawsuit against Maine over transgender athlete policies. She explains the constitutional stakes, federal-state tensions, and civil rights implications, warning the case could redefine equality standards and influence national policymaking on rights and inclusion. Website: https://jamiewrightesq.com.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How do you interpret the federal government’s decision to sue Maine over its refusal to ban transgender athletes?
Jamie E. Wright: The federal government’s lawsuit against Maine over its refusal to enforce a ban on transgender athletes is more than a policy dispute. It’s a full-blown constitutional clash. Bottom line, at stake is the balance between civil rights and state power. This isn’t just about who gets to play on which sports team. It is about whether Washington can compel states to adopt a national standard of equality under Title IX, the federal law that bans sex-based discrimination in education.
Jacobsen: What are the constitutional or legal precedents?
Wright: The legal backdrop is complex but important. The Supreme Court has ruled that the federal government can attach conditions to its funding. That was settled in 1987 in South Dakota v. Dole. But there are limits. When those conditions begin to feel less like guidelines and more like mandates, courts have pushed back against federal coercion.
Jacobsen: Governor Janet Mills called this lawsuit federal overreach. Where is the line between federal enforcement and state discretion?
Wright: That is exactly the argument Maine Governor Janet Mills is making. She says the Biden administration is overstepping its authority, using federal education dollars to strong-arm the state into following policies it does not support. If Maine can show that it had no meaningful choice but to comply, it could invoke the anti-commandeering principle laid out in Murphy v. NCAA in 2018. In plain English, the federal government cannot hijack state governments to carry out federal policies.
Jacobsen: What are the likely downstream effects for states with inclusive transgender athlete policies?
Wright: The federal government sees it differently. Officials argue this is not about commandeering at all. It is about making sure states that accept federal funding do not discriminate. It is about defending the rights of transgender students and making sure civil rights law does not depend on your ZIP code.
Jacobsen: If Maine prevails, could this empower defiance of federal directives on civil rights issues?
Wright: The outcome could be seismic. If the courts side with Washington, the ruling could set a new national standard, expanding protections for transgender athletes and forcing other states to align. If Maine wins, it could spark a wave of resistance, with states asserting more control over civil rights enforcement and challenging federal authority at its core.
Jacobsen: What are the legal and ethical implications of using sports as a battleground? How might this lawsuit influence future policymaking?
Wright: Make no mistake…this case is not just legal theory. It is unfolding in locker rooms, on soccer fields, and in high school gyms. On one side are transgender students asking to be seen, included, and treated with respect. On the other are families and advocates raising concerns about fairness in girls’ sports and what inclusion should look like in practice. What is at risk is not only legal precedent, but the lives and experiences of real young people. When these kids become pawns in political battles, everybody loses.
Jacobsen: How should the public understand the stakes of this legal conflict?
Wright: This case could set the tone for the next chapter in America’s long fight over rights and representation. More states are likely to push back. Future administrations may use the same tactics or escalate them. The deeper question remains: Who gets to define what equality means in this country? And will that definition apply to all of us, or only to some?
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Jamie.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/24
On the 20th anniversary of the WHO Framework Convention on Tobacco Control (FCTC), the Taxpayers Protection Alliance and public health advocates like Martin Cullip are calling out the WHO’s refusal to embrace tobacco harm reduction. Despite overwhelming evidence supporting alternatives such as vaping, nicotine pouches, snus, and heated tobacco, the WHO maintains a prohibitionist stance rooted in outdated ideologies. Critics argue that this blocks progress, wastes taxpayer money, and ignores the lived experiences of millions who have successfully quit smoking using reduced-risk products. They urge governments and civil society to pressure the WHO for reform and evidence-based public health policies.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: The Taxpayers Protection Alliance (TPA) is also criticizing the World Health Organization (WHO) and its Framework Convention on Tobacco Control (FCTC) on its twentieth anniversary. The TPA argues that the FCTC has failed to adapt over time and has not integrated harm reduction strategies such as vaping, heated tobacco products, and nicotine pouches into its policy framework. Critics—including Clive Bates, Roger Bate, and Martin Cullip, who (Cullins) joins us today—have accused the WHO of clinging to outdated, abstinence-only, prohibitionist approaches while ignoring science-based alternatives that could significantly reduce smoking-related deaths.
From personal experience, I’ve worked in construction, in restaurants, and even with horses—environments where smoking and, increasingly, vaping are everyday habits. This is true in many parts of Western Europe and North America. Many people smoke. Many people vape. Many also feel a sense of guilt or shame around it due in part to social stigma and rising costs. Despite this, harm reduction is gaining traction globally.
I was involved with Canadian Students for Sensible Drug Policy (CSSDP), a youth-led harm reduction advocacy organization. Our focus at the time included urgent issues such as fentanyl contamination in recreational drug supplies. One key initiative was investigating access to naloxone—an opioid overdose reversal medication—on post-secondary campuses. At the time, only a few universities in Canada had naloxone kits available on-site. This was not decades ago—this was within the last several years.
Canada has over one hundred accredited universities, and the vast majority of them are public. Fewer than ten are private, and most of those have religious affiliations. The lack of widespread harm reduction infrastructure was—and in some cases still is—a clear example of policy failing to meet public health needs. Now to the central point. When analyzing the WHO’s Framework Convention on Tobacco Control, how closely does it mirror the language and policy recommendations of traditional prohibitionist frameworks? More importantly, has the FCTC evolved to reflect harm reduction principles?
Martin Cullip: Unfortunately, no—at least not in any meaningful or public-facing way. This is one of the key concerns raised by experts. The WHO has historically resisted harm reduction in the context of tobacco, much as it once did in the context of illicit drug use. While the WHO eventually recognized harm reduction as a legitimate and necessary approach for addressing drug-related harms—including needle exchange and opioid substitution therapy—it was a protracted battle. Many advocates recall that the WHO, for years, acted as a barrier rather than a partner in those efforts.
Over time, with the global recognition that the war on drugs had failed, the WHO came around and now endorses harm reduction for drug policy. However, in tobacco control, the same shift has not yet occurred. Despite mounting evidence that reduced-risk nicotine products can help adult smokers switch away from combustible cigarettes, the WHO continues to prioritize abstinence-based measures and, in some cases, supports bans or severe restrictions on harm-reduction tools.
And that is precisely what they are now doing with tobacco harm reduction. I would say it is the same kind of struggle. You know, nicotine use—according to archaeological evidence—has been going on for over twelve thousand years. That is just what we currently know.
Today, we have around one billion smokers globally out of a population of eight billion. So, you are not going to eliminate nicotine use. The sensible approach is to help people consume nicotine in the safest way possible, and that is through harm reduction: vapes, nicotine pouches, heated tobacco, and snus, which have been used for decades in Scandinavian countries.
However, the WHO remains committed to a prohibitionist stance, despite growing evidence that harm reduction works. In countries where harm reduction is embraced as part of tobacco control, smoking rates are significantly lower than in those that maintain abstinence-only policies.
Take Sweden, for example. It has just reached the European Union’s “smoke-free” target of less than 5% adult smoking prevalence—sixteen years ahead of the EU’s 2040 goal. That demonstrates harm reduction’s effectiveness. It mirrors the earlier battle over drug policy, where advocates eventually convinced the WHO to recognize harm reduction measures like needle exchange programs and opioid substitution therapy.
Jacobsen: So it is the same sort of conversation. The available evidence—at least the last time I checked—strongly supports harm reduction as an effective way to reduce the harm associated with virtually any substance. Prohibitionist or punitive approaches, on the other hand, tend to either have no impact or make the situation worse.
What tends to happen is this: people who are going to use a substance still do, and sometimes use it even more dangerously. So prohibition can be counterproductive, but if health authorities know this and still promote such policies, it borders on misinformation.
Over time, what we see is not only increased use but increased trauma—whether through financial penalties, incarceration, or other consequences. Smoking is, of course, a somewhat different case than illicit drug use, but this is still a broad pattern that applies across substance use policy. Has any of the evidence changed recently to support prohibitionist tobacco policies?
Cullip: No, if anything, the evidence has grown stronger to support harm reduction. One of the classic prohibitionist arguments is that “we do not yet know the long-term effects” of these newer products. But that argument never ends. I read a piece just last year from someone in Sweden claiming we still do not know enough about snus.
Snus has been used in Sweden since at least the 1800s and has contributed significantly to the country’s low smoking rates. At what point is the evidence considered sufficient? That kind of argument is used to delay policy reform indefinitely.
Meanwhile, because of the WHO’s anti–harm reduction stance, some countries have begun adopting punitive measures against people who use safer nicotine alternatives. France, for example, has passed legislation to ban nicotine pouches—arguably the safest form of nicotine delivery currently available. That is deeply concerning.
I mean, nicotine pouches work in much the same way as pharmaceutical nicotine replacement therapies like patches and gum. But now they are banning these products. In France, for example, they have proposed a five-year prison sentence simply for possession—not sale, not use, just possession—of nicotine pouches.
If this trend of prohibition continues, it will inevitably harm people—just as we now understand the war on drugs did in the United States. That approach criminalized millions, disproportionately affecting marginalized communities, for behaviours that are, frankly, human. People have always sought out psychoactive substances, whether for relief, stimulation, or recreation.
Someone needs to be realistic about this. People are going to use these products. The best approach is to guide them toward the safest possible options, which is the essence of harm reduction. As you mentioned, we do not ban driving because cars can cause fatal accidents. Instead, we mandate seat belts. And yes, cars damage the environment, but the solution is to shift toward electric vehicles—not to ban all cars. These are examples of harm reduction.
In nearly every other area of public policy, harm reduction is accepted as common sense. But for some reason, when it comes to psychoactive substances, there’s a block—institutional resistance. That is why the WHO opposed drug harm reduction for so long and now, similarly, opposes tobacco harm reduction.
Hopefully, history will positively repeat itself, and the WHO will eventually shift. These are not unintelligent people at the WHO. Many are extremely capable. The problem is institutional inertia. It is not that someone needs to make a radical change overnight—it is that the system needs a push toward rational, incremental reform.
Jacobsen: Especially when a country like France is taking these hardline stances. France is often stereotyped in North America as a liberal country, at least socially. So, it sends a strong message even when they are adopting such prohibitionist policies. Of course, some Americans dislike the French for reasons they cannot even articulate. I’m Canadian, but I understand that sentiment exists. I know many British people feel similarly.
Cullip: Yeah, I’m British—and yes, a lot of Brits seem to dislike the French, but I actually really enjoy France. I have been there many times and love the country.
Jacobsen: For the WHO to maintain credibility in global health governance, what specific, targeted reforms should come first?
Cullip: I think they need to be more realistic. Part of the issue is that many at the WHO see themselves as having fought and won a decades-long battle against Big Tobacco. That fight has shaped their worldview. The logic goes: smoking is dangerous; therefore, it must be stopped entirely.
Historically, the only way to consume nicotine outside of pharmaceutical products was through smoking—rolling up dried tobacco leaves in paper and lighting them. That was it. So the narrative became: all tobacco is harmful, and no tobacco is good. From there, the assumption followed: ban all tobacco.
In that framework, the vector of harm is not just the product—it is the industry. So now the WHO is focused on attacking both, sometimes without distinguishing between combustible tobacco and much safer alternatives.
They want to attack smoking, and they want to attack the tobacco industry. So when that same industry introduces something completely different—reduced-risk products—they have difficulty accepting it. Sorry, someone was calling me; I declined it.
When alternative products emerge, the WHO faces two significant challenges. First, its institutional mindset is built entirely around opposing smoking, and it seems unable to shift to a harm reduction framework. Second, some of these alternative products—though not all—are produced by the same tobacco companies it has spent decades fighting. The WHO and its allies have been conditioned to oppose anything tied to the industry, regardless of scientific merit.
So, they are facing two entrenched barriers: a focus on abstinence rather than harm reduction and deep-rooted hostility toward the industry. Much of the global tobacco control network was built around this dual opposition. It is difficult for them to acknowledge that the landscape has changed and that new products and approaches now exist.
Keep in mind that vaping was only invented a little over twenty years ago, and nicotine pouches only came onto the market around 2016. More people are now discovering snus, which has been used safely in Scandinavian countries for decades. Yet snus has been banned throughout the European Union since 1992—without good justification. That is another debate altogether, but it illustrates the point.
Jacobsen: That ban belongs to a very different era.
Cullip: Exactly. Heated tobacco products are also relatively new. They were introduced in Japan around 2016, and since then, cigarette sales in Japan have fallen by about 50%. That is an enormous public health achievement in a short time.
If these harm-reduction products are allowed to thrive, they can drastically reduce smoking rates. But if your institution has spent years attacking only one product—combustible cigarettes—and that product finally begins to decline due to innovations you had no part in creating, what is your role? What does the tobacco control movement become when people can walk into a vape shop and quit smoking without any involvement from WHO-backed programs?
There is also a sense that because these products were not invented or endorsed by the public health establishment, the WHO does not feel ownership over them. And therefore, they are dismissed or ignored.
It is probably difficult for the WHO to shift direction. But it must begin listening to the science. That is where the core issue lies.
We are now at the twentieth anniversary of the WHO’s Framework Convention on Tobacco Control (FCTC), a global treaty ratified by 183 countries. But it has strayed from its original mission: to reduce the harms caused by tobacco smoke.
Today, it is attacking nicotine itself, which was never the intent. Even some of the original architects of the treaty have expressed concern, saying that the FCTC has turned into an ideological crusade. It is no longer focused on harm reduction. It refuses open debate, avoids engaging with dissenting views, and only admits carefully vetted media to its conferences. In fact, it once even banned Interpol from attending a session—Interpol!—because it had previously spoken with a tobacco company about curbing illicit trade, which is literally part of Interpol’s mandate.
This is the problem: the WHO is stuck in a 1990s-era battle against Big Tobacco while we live in a 21st-century world with innovative, demonstrably safer nicotine products. Instead of adapting to the evidence, they are clinging to outdated narratives.
And there are glimpses that the WHO occasionally acknowledges the potential of harm reduction. For example, in 2016, during the Seventh Conference of the Parties (COP7) held in India, there was an admission in one of their official documents that if every smoker were to switch to vaping, it would represent a significant public health gain.
However, their subsequent actions did not align with that statement. Instead of loosening restrictions, they have imposed more prohibitions over time. So, while there was recognition on paper, their policies have only become more restrictive in practice.
Jacobsen: Right. And that creates a contradiction—because, in theory, taxpayer funding should lead to effective public services. That is the whole point: taxpayers pay into the system to deliver services effectively and based on evidence. But if those services are, in fact, ineffective or even harmful—particularly when based on outdated or punitive policies—then taxpayers are not only undermining their present investment in public institutions but also ensuring higher future costs through continued inefficiency and avoidable health burdens. So what role do taxpayers have in redirecting harm reduction policy?
Cullip: That is a fundamental question. I have often argued that anyone who uses nicotine is, by extension, a taxpayer—either directly, through income and consumption taxes or indirectly, by participating in a system funded by taxes. And a portion of that funding goes to support institutions like the World Health Organization.
The fact that the WHO holds its key meetings in private and refuses to allow consumers to observe the process—let alone contribute—is simply unacceptable. It is fundamentally wrong. There is no democratic input. The WHO is not elected, yet it receives public funding from taxpayer-supported governments while systematically excluding those same taxpayers from discussions.
It was not always this way. In the past, some public access to proceedings was permitted. I have personally attended a few. But increasingly, the WHO is shutting out dissenting voices—consumers, scientists, industry experts—anyone who might question their approach.
Jacobsen: This makes the work of groups like the Taxpayers Protection Alliance (TPA) essential.
Cullip: That is why TPA is hosting its own event in Geneva during the same week as the WHO’s Conference of the Parties (COP10). The goal is to demonstrate that there are other voices—consumers, taxpayers, and experts—who believe the WHO’s approach is flawed and out of touch with both science and public accountability.
It is not just consumers. We have doctors, policy specialists, and health economists at our event. The message is simple: there is a better way, and it is time the WHO listens.
As you noted, embracing harm reduction can also reduce healthcare costs. In countries that have adopted harm reduction for tobacco and nicotine, smoking prevalence has declined, and so have associated healthcare burdens. The WHO often talks about how much smoking costs health systems. So, if we know that safer alternatives reduce smoking, why are they not encouraging those alternatives?
We do not have a clear answer. But we can amplify the message that science, policy, and financial responsibility all point in the same direction: toward harm reduction.
This exclusion of public voices is truly unique. You do not see this in other international policy spaces. At UN climate change conferences, for instance—COP meetings on climate—the public can attend. Civil society is present. Even industry representatives are involved because the understanding is that we must solve the problem together.
So why is the WHO’s approach to tobacco and nicotine the only significant public health space where transparency is actively avoided?
Climate change is recognized globally as a serious issue, and the consensus has been that all stakeholders—governments, scientists, civil society, and even industry—need to be involved to address it. No one thinks we can solve the climate crisis by locking decision-making into a small echo chamber and excluding everyone who disagrees. But that is precisely what the WHO is doing with tobacco harm reduction.
Jacobsen: So, how does the WHO typically respond to criticism? I do not mean supporters who offer gentle suggestions—I mean policy-level public statements or rebuttals to outside critiques.
Cullip: Almost universally, they respond by dismissing anyone who advocates for tobacco harm reduction as being aligned with, or influenced by, the tobacco industry. That is the default accusation. And they ignore you after that.
I have dealt with this personally for years. I ran a transport company for twenty-six years, specializing in taking children with disabilities to and from school. Writing about harm reduction was a side interest—something I did because I was a nicotine consumer and saw the value in products like vaping. But I was accused of being on the tobacco industry payroll.
I was supposed to have been running a full-time business employing 50 people while secretly serving as a tobacco industry operative. It is absurd. But this happens to anyone—whether they are scientists, journalists, or consumers—who speaks positively about harm reduction.
All over the world, there are people who say, quite sincerely, “Vaping saved my life” or “Snus was the only thing that helped me quit smoking.” Their motivations are personal and authentic. They advocate not for the industry but for the products that finally worked for them after everything else failed.
Yet nearly every one of them has been labeled a tobacco industry shill at some point. This is a convenient tactic—meant to delegitimize the individual and shut down the conversation without actually engaging with the evidence or the policy argument.
It is not very kind, frankly. Especially considering that these are taxpayers who help fund organizations like the WHO. They have a right to a voice and to be included in public health policy debates, particularly when the policy in question affects them directly.
Jacobsen: What actions can civil society, healthcare professionals, and consumers take to push for the inclusion of harm reduction in global tobacco policy?
I understand that in some countries, harm reduction may be politically impossible or suppressed due to cultural norms or authoritarian regimes. But from a U.K. standpoint, and perhaps more broadly across liberal democracies, what can people do?
Cullip: That is a great question. First, civil society needs to be vocal. Organizations that advocate for public health must stand up and say that harm reduction is a legitimate, evidence-based approach. That is already happening in places like the U.K., where the government supports vaping as a tool for smoking cessation. However, more can always be done to raise awareness and keep the conversation evidence-based.
Healthcare professionals have a vital role. Doctors, nurses, and public health experts all have authority and access to platforms that consumers often do not. They must speak up, present the data, and challenge the misinformation.
Consumers should not underestimate their power either. Their stories—real, lived experiences—are powerful. They need to organize, speak at public events, write op-eds, engage their MPs or representatives, and demand that international institutions like the WHO listen to the people most affected by their policies.
Finally, all of this needs to come together. Conferences, petitions, and side events—like the one we are holding in Geneva during COP10—are crucial. They show the WHO that there is a broad, informed, and evidence-driven coalition of people—taxpayers, experts, and advocates—who demand a more humane and effective public health strategy.
The WHO cannot ignore this forever. The science, the economics, and the ethics all point in one direction: harm reduction. Well, this is precisely my territory. I often tell consumers not to give up just because people are not listening to them. Make yourselves louder. Keep writing letters. Keep petitioning if you can. Yes, some countries are more autocratic and do not allow that sort of civic engagement. But if you are in a democratic country, contact your elected representatives. Let them know you exist. Tell them this works. It worked for you.
Just in terms of vaping alone, the last global estimate suggested there are at least 20 million vapers worldwide. And there are likely at least another 20 million using nicotine pouches, snus, or heated tobacco. That is a vast number of people who have managed to quit smoking through these products—and their voices should matter.
Because the WHO is comprised of its member nations, the pressure must come from national governments. In my case, that is the U.K.; in your case, it is Canada. Push your government to speak up for harm reduction at WHO events. The WHO does not unilaterally dictate what countries do at these meetings. A secretariat tries to steer discussions, but ultimately, decisions at the Framework Convention on Tobacco Control (FCTC) Conference of the Parties (COP) are made by the countries themselves.
National delegations are responsible for telling the WHO, “Our citizens are using these products. They work. You need to adapt your approach.” At COP10, which just took place, between 30 and 40 countries stood up and said, in effect, “Harm reduction deserves a seat at the table.” Now we wait to see what the WHO’s FCTC Secretariat will do at COP11 in Geneva, but we hope that even more countries will push the dial forward and challenge the prohibitionist status quo.
Tobacco harm reduction works. It worked for drugs—though the WHO resisted that for decades, too. They were eventually forced to admit that drug harm reduction saved lives. Now, they need to do the same with tobacco.
But right now, they are becoming more extreme. And that tells me something. When an institution starts to issue more extreme statements and starts spreading information that gets fact-checked or community-noted online, it means it is starting to lose the argument.
The science is building in favour of harm reduction. The WHO needs to stop cherry-picking studies that confirm its biases and start listening to the totality of evidence—and to the voices of consumers, the people who fund the organization through their taxes.
That is only going to happen if governments start attending these meetings and saying, “We want a new approach. We want the WHO to acknowledge that these alternatives are saving lives.”
Yes, it is political. But to consumers, you are civil society. You are the voices that matter most because you are the most affected. You need to stand up for yourselves, stand up for harm reduction, and demand that your governments carry your message to the WHO. Tell them to wake up.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Martin, it was nice to meet you. Thank you for your time, and I appreciate your sharing these critiques.
Cullip: That is fine. I hope the answers were what you were looking for.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Nice to meet you. Take care.
Cullip: It was lovely to meet you, too. Thanks a lot. Bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/23
Because nothing is manlier than:
- ranting on hypergamy at 2 a.m.
- being obsessed about meat and men without shirts.
- rating everyone’s sexual market value, like day-traders.
- proclaiming yourself an alpha male, on Reddit.
- spending Friday night memorizing pickup lines.
- announcing you’re going your own way — then publishing a manifesto.
- calling women shallow.
- punching homosexuals.
- launching a red-pill podcast, for no one.
- warning women about “the Wall” while ignoring a receding hairline.
- tweeting all Andrew Tate’s tenets before breakfast.
- boasting about your NoFap “superpowers” during a blackout.
- calling strangers “soy boys” while sipping a soy-milk latte.
- dropping your bench-press PR into every thread.
- ranking unwatched manosphere podcasts.
- “negging” dates because a pickup blog said so.
- paying $2,997 to learn “hi.”
- chewing a jaw exerciser to looks-maxx.
- tweeting your monk-mode focus journey.
- launching a crypto hustle “for the bros.”
- starting each dawn with an “alpha” cold shower and ending it flame-posting on Reddit.
- live-tweeting your No-Nut-November “streak,”
truly, helping the many young men who lack sufficient healthy guidance.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/23
Rick Williams is a seasoned leadership advisor with deep experience in both the political and corporate sectors. He was the Democratic nominee for the U.S. Congress from Massachusetts’ 5th District, managed Congressman Mo Udall’s presidential campaign in Massachusetts, and served as a delegate to the Democratic National Convention when Jimmy Carter was nominated. As a consultant with Arthur D. Little, Williams advised U.S. federal agencies on environmental and energy regulations, including shaping strategies to reduce fluorocarbon emissions alongside the President’s Council on Environmental Quality. His career has bridged political strategy, public policy, and board governance, with a focus on helping organizations make high-stakes decisions. In his book Create the Future, Williams asserts that leadership is fundamentally about shaping outcomes through value-driven decisions rather than relying solely on evidence. He explains that political decision-making reflects the values of both leaders and constituents, with short-term political dynamics often overshadowing long-term vision. Drawing parallels between corporate boards and public institutions, he suggests that legislatures can serve as “value accelerators” by setting goals, establishing priorities, reviewing performance, and coaching executive leaders. Williams encourages leaders to remain focused amid chaos by staying clear on desired outcomes and using every moment — even politically charged ones — as opportunities to reinforce long-term goals and build public trust.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Your leadership emphasizes “creating the future.” How does this apply to political leaders navigating complex global challenges?
Rick Williams: I believe that a leader’s primary responsibility is to create the future for the organization they lead. They create the future by the decisions they make — by the choices they make.
I named my new book Create the Future because I want to make a clear connection between the choices you make today and where the company will be tomorrow. If you are the mayor, governor, or president of the United States, your decisions today create the future of the community you lead.
Pres. Biden’s decision not to enforce US border security resulted in millions of undocumented aliens coming into the US. Pres. Trump announced that undocumented aliens would not be permitted to come into the US and mass migration stopped. Those two decisions will have a profound impact on the future of the United States on many levels.
Jacobsen: How is evidence-based decision-making evolving in political leadership?
Williams: Political decision making is not “evidence-based.” Political decisions express the values of the decision maker. Elected leaders choose which laws will govern our lives and economy. By their decisions, the leaders choose which programs to fund, which not to fund, and which businesses and groups of individuals get preferential treatment. These are values choices.
Decision making is hard. We don’t want to make choices until we are forced to do so. Elected officials are no different. They know that any decision they make will please some and anger others.
Advocates for and against a law or program will present evidence to support their position. Political decision makers will consider the evidence, but their final decisions will express their values and those of their constituents.
We elect our legislative representatives, governors, and presidents to represent us. We expect them to examine the issues and make informed decisions on our behalf. We, as citizens, do not have time to carefully consider every issue and do not have access to all the information — evidence. We expect our elected representatives to do their homework and make informed decisions that reflect our interests and values.
Elected political leaders learn about the complex issues before them, and their political constituency will have a general understanding of the issues. Our political election process drives politicians to make decisions in line with the wishes of a majority or plurality of their constituents, irrespective of what independent research might support. I recognize that donors and activists often have more influence than voters.
A political leader’s decisions are driven mainly by what their constituents understand or believe rather than what the elected representative has concluded based on their independent research and their assessment what is best for the state or country. President Kennedy’s book Profiles in Courage tells the story of rare political leaders who had the courage to make decisions contrary to popular opinion.
An unfortunate example today of political sentiment conflicting with well established science is the dramatic change in public opinion aboout vaccines. Vaccines against many diseases have saved millions of lives across the world. When the COVID-19 vaccine campaign demanded compliance far beyond what the public would accept, the public’s views about all vaccines changed from acceptance to skepticism. This change in public opinion has changed political leaders’ willingness to champion clearly beneficial vaccines.
Skilled political leaders educate both themselves and their constituents. Constituent education will include challenging preconceived ideas. Political leaders make decisions based on their assessment of the proposal and what they believe their constituents will support. With rare exceptions, that is how the political process works.
Political leaders rely on the media to educate their constituents. In an era of partisan media where most of us only tune in to media that supports our preconceived views, that process is broken. Local media has mostly stopped reporting on local government and politics.
With no one calling strikes and balls, political competition in the US has become the “Democratic Team” against the “Republican Team.” “Whatever the other team is for, I am against it even though I supported that position when my team was in office.” “I support whatever helps my team and hurts the other team.” In the past, Democrats championed tolerance and fought against anti-Semitism. Today, Democrats are against Trump’s effort to stop anti-Semitism at Harvard and other universities.
Jacobsen: You’ve served on numerous boards and speak about boards as “value accelerators.” How can this be adapted to public institutions for greater national impact?
Williams: In the private sector, the board of directors is the governing body of the corporation. The CEO is the “chief executive” charged with implementing strategy and business decisions made by the board. Legislatures, like a board, are responsible for approving the laws that govern the civil and business functioning of the country and approving specific programs and budgets that the president is responsible for implementing. The relationship between the legislature and the president is similar to that of the board of directors and the CEO but it is not precisely the same.
The CEO and the board of directors have a collaborative and competitive relationship. I describe the board as both the boss and the coach. The board sets policy and direction and also acts as a coach to help the CEO and other senior leaders succeed in their jobs executing on the board’s decisions.
The board will be a “value accelerator” if it sets goals that drive the company to higher value, coaches the leadership to make them successful in doing their job, and reviews and judges performance against the established goals.
The Congress, state legislature, or city council can be a value accelerator for the government as a whole and for government agencies. Congress’s job and that of a corporate board are not the same. But the principals of impactful corporate boards provide valuable guidance to how legislatures can better perform their governance role.
Legislatures have an important role as fact finders and communicators with the public. The board is responsible for educating itself, but that work is done in private and is generally not communicated to shareholders and the public.
Recognizing that legislatures and boards of directors are different, here are practices drawn from impactful board operations that can enhance the value that the legislature brings to the governing process as a whole.
Make decisions: Don’t delegate decision making about legislative intent to the president and agencies so the decisions will be hidden from public view. Make decisions — make choices — about what the government will do and let the public know why that is the right decision.
Set goals: Establish performance goals for the executive branch and government agencies.
Establish priorities: The government cannot do everything. Establish priorities that will guide the agency’s programming and budgeting.
Review performance: Once approved, the president, governor, or mayor — the executive — is responsible for implementing laws and programs. The legislature is responsible for monitoring performance. Hold hearing, do field visits, issue reports, and talk about what you are learning. Hold agencies and the executive branch responsible for what they committed to do and their implementation of the approved laws and programs.
Help the president and agency heads be successful: As part of the legislature’s performance review, senior members of the legislature can be valuable coaches to key executive leaders. Coaching is not an official legislative job, but a legislator’s depth of experience and different points of view — legislative vs executive — can be valuable to executive leaders.
Some of the coaching can be done through public and private committee hearings. But the most valuable will be done in private one-on-one settings. This coaching by senior legislative leaders can only work if there is a personal, trusting relationship between the individuals.
This is hard to do in such a partisan time, but informal coaching can be a valuable contribution. Former House Speaker Tip O’Neill, a Democrat, met regularly with President Reagan, a Republican. O’Neill came from a very different background than Reagan and had a different time frame perspective. I am sure Reagan learned from O’Neill’s perspective, and O’Neill helped Reagan be a more successful president.
Government agency heads have difficult jobs balancing conflicting demands from Congress, the president, and their staff. Key legislative leaders can be valuable coaches to key agency leaders.
Jacobsen: Many politicians face decision fatigue. What insights from Create the Future helps leaders maintain strategic clarity amid chaos?
Williams: When you are clear about what success will look like and the goals you have established, the apparent chaos of the moment subsides. When you are clear what decisions you must make and are working to make those unique decisions, the path forward is less cluttered.
Jacobsen: Any advice to heads of state or ministers about balancing long-term vision with short-term politics?
Williams: Skilled political leaders have guiding principles and a long-term vision of success. By communicating their principles and vision, they define who they are as a political leader and their personal brand. They will also participate in the short-term political issues. The daily media cycle demands that a political leader stay engaged with the issue of the day to stay visible to their constituents.
Successful leaders will use transitory issues to continuously communicate their long-term goals and progress towards reaching them. Today, leaders have many communication channels to reach the public. Because these channels often have a well-defined audience with a point of view, political leaders can craft their message about the momentary topics to that audience within an overall message about their goals and branding.
President Trump has effectively used podcasts to reach non-traditional Republican audiences.. He has gone on media channels that are not friendly to him to get his message to their audience. He creates media events as counter programming to his opponents’ events These are ways to use the issues of the moment as a vehicle for building your brand and advocating for your long-term goals to your followers and to others who might be open to hearing your message.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Rick.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/22
Dr. Joe-Joe McManus reflects on evolving expressions of antisemitism in the U.S., highlighting its increased weaponization, particularly the conflation of anti-Zionism with antisemitism. While both the political left and right acknowledge antisemitism, financial influences and politicized definitions distort genuine understanding and solutions. Education and critical thinking remain vital tools in countering hate. McManus stresses that true change requires embedding antiracism and anti-oppression values into daily life, rather than relying on episodic activism. Systemic change, he notes, is a long-term endeavor that demands consistent ethical decision-making and broader cultural and economic transformation.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When it comes to antisemitism, what has been your sense of it over the last five decades—or at least four decades—in the United States? To quote Paul Mooney, “Ain’t nothin’ changed but the weather.” So, what has changed about the weather?
Dr. Joe-Joe McManus: Wow, that’s an interesting question. I can’t quite speak to five decades since I’m barely in my fifties, so I do not have personal experience that far back. But I can reflect on the changes I’ve seen over my lifetime.
What’s been especially striking, as a Jewish person myself, is the weaponization of antisemitism. I do not remember that being as prevalent when I was younger. Of course, antisemitism has always been present, but the way it’s being used now—especially in the media, government discourse, and other public arenas—has intensified, particularly in the context of what’s happening in Gaza.
Over time, there’s been a concerted effort to conflate anti-Zionism with antisemitism. That has never been my understanding, and it still is not. That conflation is a political maneuver. Especially in the United States, there is very little general understanding of what Zionism is. Until recent years and recent events, the average American could not have even offered a basic definition.
So what we are seeing now is a bad-faith effort to equate anti-Zionism—and even pro-Palestinian sentiment—with antisemitism. That is probably the most significant shift I’ve observed.
As far as the overall prevalence of antisemitism, I think it has remained relatively steady. There has been some excellent educational work done in schools and by nonprofits to counter antisemitism, and we’ve made some progress there. But the weaponization of antisemitism undermines that progress. It hurts the broader effort to end antisemitism.
Jacobsen: What works in countering antisemitism?
McManus: I am an educator, so my answer will always include education. We must understand concepts, systems, and history from multiple perspectives. We need to be taught how to think critically and distinguish fact from misinformation—or what some now refer to as “alternative facts,” which is a dangerous and misleading concept.
The Internet has made that more difficult. With all the so-called “news” sites and the algorithms feeding people more of what they already consume, people rarely get exposed to other perspectives. We end up stuck in narrow content loops, especially on social media.
Even our more traditional media outlets have changed. And I hesitate to use the word “legitimate” when referring to some of them because many high-profile voices are not reporters. They are not delivering news but offering opinions, often dressed up as reporting.
We must be clear about what constitutes a perspective and hate. I spend much time working on issues related to antisemitism, racism, and other forms of oppression, and one of the most significant problems I see is the framing of hate as just another opinion.
Too often, media will present “both sides”—as if white supremacy, antisemitism, homophobia, and heterosexism are differing viewpoints. That legitimizes oppression. It gives hate a platform under the guise of balance. And when we legitimize these things, they become part of the public’s framework for what is acceptable discourse. People come to see them as just “another way of thinking” when, in fact, they are rooted in bigotry and harm.
It’s a different perspective. I think we have to start understanding more clearly what constitutes a legitimate difference in perspective—such as various interpretations of history or policy—and what is driven by systems of oppression and hate. I may have gone a little off track there, but that always happens in my interviews.
Jacobsen: What do you see—in generic terms, although it is ironic to call them that—that the sociopolitical left in the United States tends to get right about antisemitism? And what do you think the sociopolitical right tends to get right? What would a healthy synthesis of those correct understandings look like regarding factuality?
McManus: Well, it is tough to talk about it as a binary, especially within the U.S. political system, which is heavily influenced by money. When you have organizations like AIPAC and others flooding both Republican and Democratic spaces with funding, it distorts political perspectives on all sorts of issues—including antisemitism.
There is just so much money in politics now. It costs a fortune to run for anything, and individuals like Elon Musk or political action committees can flood the airwaves and influence discourse. That financial influence makes it hard to speak about ideology with clarity because I am not sure much ideology is left—at least not in the way we once thought of it. There may have been more ideological consistency in the past, but now, the overwhelming presence of money changes the game entirely.
All that said, I do think one thing both sides agree on is that antisemitism is real. There was a time when I was younger when people would say, “Oh, racism isn’t real anymore—it’s a thing of the past.” The same was said about antisemitism. But we are nowhere near being post-racial or post-antisemitic. Those are delusional ideas. They may be aspirational, and I’m fine with aspiration—but let’s not mistake aspiration for reality.
So yes, both political sides acknowledge the reality of antisemitism. However, both have also been corrupted by differing and often politicized definitions of what antisemitism is. The IHRA definition, for example, seeks to equate criticism of Israel or anti-Zionist viewpoints with antisemitism. I think that conflation has done real damage to public understanding.
So while it is good that people now take antisemitism seriously, the way it has been weaponized—particularly when aligned with campaign donors or threats to political standing—is deeply troubling. That kind of manipulation, in service to whoever is funding or threatening your campaign, is something we need to talk about more honestly.
There is this sense of, “Oh, well, if you do not side with us, we are going to fund someone to run against you.” That kind of corruption of the concept is hurting us. It makes it harder to help people understand what antisemitism is and how to counter it. I think politics, right now, is doing a disservice to those of us who have been fighting against antisemitism for a long time—trying to educate people on what it looks like and how to address it.
Jacobsen: One idea that has come up in a few of these interviews, including off-tape conversations, is the notion—or tacit argument—that antisemitism may not be something that can ever be fully eradicated but rather something perennial to mitigate as much as possible. The idea is that this might be a more realistic stance, given that people have whole lives to live, and activism, for most, comes in seasons. Few people are full-time activists. So it becomes about picking your spots, picking them well, and doing so throughout your life. What do you think of that idea?
McManus: It is pragmatic. One of the things I tried to do in the book—while it is primarily about race—is to help people understand how to integrate opposition to all forms of oppression, including antisemitism, into their daily lives.
I think the key, whether it is antisemitism or another form of oppression, is to make this a core part of who you are. Yes, there will be times when you speak up more or find an opportunity to act on a particular issue. But if it becomes part of your identity and value system, then it informs your daily decisions—what you purchase and from whom, what you accept in your friendships and relationships, how you vote on a school board, how you show up as a parent or student, and even how you approach hiring and promotion.
That is a more realistic and sustainable way to shift systems over time. Yes, for those of us who do this work full-time, we are focused on addressing systemic issues every day—and we are under attack right now, including those of us working against antisemitism. We are being targeted because we are clear about what antisemitism is.
And the vast majority of us are also saying we are against genocide. That has put us in opposition to much of the political rhetoric we have discussed. However, from that pragmatic standpoint, the best approach is for individuals to adopt these values as part of who they are.
When something becomes part of your core values, it guides your daily decisions. It determines what you support and what you reject. In the book, I pose a question: “How racist does a politician have to be for you not to vote for them?” Or, “How racist does a first date need to be before you decide not to go on a second one?”
These are real, everyday decisions. And we need to make opposition to any form of oppression part of our core values. When we do that, it becomes a consistent influence on everything we do.
It is not a “fix this tomorrow” kind of thing. I know where this is going. I am Gen X, and so we grew up with computers and microwave ovens—we were the first generation to have little to no patience.
But the reality is that we have been dealing with these issues of oppression for a long time. And for them to end, it is going to take time. It is going to take a shift in global culture. Frankly, it will take a change in how economies work, because they are all connected.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/21
Mark Gerson is an entrepreneur, philanthropist, and best-selling author dedicated to bridging faith and culture. He co-founded United Hatzalah, Israel’s volunteer EMT network, and leads Torah Tuesdays with Eagles Wings, a global Christian organization supporting Israel. Mark is the author of the forthcoming book, God Was Right: How Modern Social Science Proves the Torah is True, and hosts The Rabbi’s Husband, featuring discussions with leaders like Tucker Carlson and Senator Cory Booker. He specializes in faith-driven leadership, social science validations of religious texts, and ethical business practices. United Hatzalah, with 8,000 volunteer EMTs, ensures rapid first response in emergencies, saving lives daily. African Mission Healthcare partners with Christian hospitals across 19 countries to provide essential medical care and infrastructure. Gerson’s upcoming book, “God Was Right,” argues that modern social science validates Torah ethics, promoting happier, healthier lives. Through his podcast “The Rabbi’s Husband,” he explores biblical inspirations across diverse leaders. Gerson emphasizes aligning faith with business for ethical, impactful leadership.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How has your experience co-founding United Hatzalah shaped views on the intersection of faith and philanthropy?
Mark Gerson: I have co-founded and Chair two charitable organizations — United Hatzalah of Israel and African Mission Healthcare. United Hatzalah is Israel’s system of crowd-sourced volunteer first response. It is based on the fact that ambulances, even in the most advanced cities, will take an average of ten minutes to someone who calls 911. This is no one’s fault — it is driven by the fact that ambulances are too big to be fast and too expensive to be ubiquitous.
However, a victim of pre-hospital trauma — someone who calls 911, maybe someone who is choking, bleeding, having a heart attack, a stroke or is giving birth suddenly — does not need an ambulance immediately. He needs a trained and equipped first responder at his side, ideally within 90 seconds.
So we built, over 20 years, an organization that has 8,000 volunteer EMTs and paramedics — who are ready, at all times, to drop whatever they are doing (working, eating, sleeping, celebrating, whatever) to rush to someone in their immediate vicinity who is in need. Each volunteer carries on him/her, at all times, a full medic kit that we provide — so that the volunteer is always ready for everything: from a car accident to a child drowning to someone choking to a heart attack to a woman giving birth suddenly.
Because we are crowd-sourced — because we are able to locate the closest first responder and dispatch him to the scene immediately — we have the best response times in the world. We respond to an average of 2,200 calls a day — and save dozens of lives every day.
I co-founded African Mission Healthcare in 2010 with my great friend Dr. Jon Fielder, who has been a missionary physician in Africa for his career. We partner with Christian missionary physicians at Christian hospitals in Africa to provide clinical care to the poor, enable training of physicians and other medical professionals, build infrastructure (from oxygen to physician housing) and do hospital administration. We have 31 hospital partners in 19 countries.
Many of the doctors we work with have devoted their entire lives to serving the poor — and doing so in medical conditions that are unimaginable to any physician in the West (operating without piped oxygen or consistent power, among other things) and living in conditions that I don’t think I could deal with for literally a weekend. They do so because they are inspired by their Christian faith to serve those who Jesus called in the Book of Matthew, “the least among us.”
This intersection of faith and philanthropy, where both organizations sit, has taught my wife (a Rabbi) and I a great deal. We have seen how faith can bring out genuine greatness in people — how a devoted Jew (regardless of how ritually observant) will be excited to rush from his Shabbat table, wake up in the middle of the night or dash around the corner to render care to someone he doesn’t know. And this devotion (which is not unique to Jews in United Hatzalah; we have many Christian, Muslim and Druze volunteers as well) does not even stop there — there are so many instances where, like what happened last week, a volunteer will return to the home of a patient he took to the hospital to clean it up…so that the patient can recover in a clean and welcoming environment.
And we have seen the same devotion with our Christian missionary partners (and now often friends) in Africa — we have seen how these people, who could be making excellent livings in the West, devote their entire lives to serving the poor due to their faith.
The missionary physicians we know through African Mission Healthcare and the volunteers we know through United Hatzalah are the best people we know — the people we want our children to be like — and we are blessed to be able to be their philanthropic partner.
And everyone who gives to either organization (or a similar organization — like Samaritan’s Purse) should regard themselves as partners — and never say (or think!): “It’s only money.” Both the missionary physicians and the United Hatzalah volunteers have said that without the financial support of philanthropists — they’d be working with Band-Aides.
Jacobsen: God Was Right: How Modern Social Science Proves the Torah is True is an upcoming book. What is social science affirming the ethics of the Torah?
Gerson:I have been studying the Torah every day for probably 15 years now — I start my day by running six miles on the treadmill, where I listen and watch Torah commentary, and then study subsequently. The first thing I really understood about the Torah is what kind of book it is. It is not a history book or a science book or a cookbook or even a lawbook — it is, as the Torah says of itself in Deuteronomy, a guidebook.
As a guidebook, the Torah exists to help us live happier, healthier and more fulfilling lives — in the most practical ways. As such, it makes hundreds of primarily psychological, social and political claims — about who we are and who we can and should be personally and communally. Many are completely counter-intuitive — such as that we can choose to be anti-fragile, we can change our character (and who we are) by following one simple rule, our choice of clothing is existentially important (and for reasons that have nothing to do with modesty or temperature control), and on and on.
For several thousand years, people have assessed the Torah using faith and experience. Now, thanks to the advent of technology — we have science: specifically 21st century social science. The 21st century social scientists, whose work ranges from obscure journals to best-sellers, have asked the same questions that the Biblical Author did.
I realized that the claims of the Torah can now be validated or invalidated socially scientifically. In the book, I go through the Torah claims on dozens of subjects — from diversity to routine to fear to future orientation. It turns out that the Torah is absolutely right in all of its asserts; in other words, the Torah has now been proven true.
Many of the chapters also address where society and culture are in conjunction with the claims of the Torah and the findings of modern social science. There, we are often going in the opposite directions— and I address that as well.
Jacobsen: What lessons have The Rabbi’s Husband taught you, in hosting?
Gerson: With the Rabbi’s Husband podcast, I did around 150 or so interviews with leaders from a variety of fields — Senators and NFL players, Pastors and Rabbis, physicians and Congressmen — about their favorite Biblical passage. I learned just how the Bible — and often singular Biblical stories, laws and passages — can drive, intrigue and inspire a wide variety of people. I think the most popular episode was Tucker Carlson’s — when we discussed whether Adam was right to trust Eve about the fruit, and its statement about gender relationships.
Jacobsen: How can faith and business align to create ethical and impactful leadership? Gerson: The Torah is the greatest guide for everything — including ethical business leadership. Here are just a few things:
Leviticus 19: “You shall have honest scales and weights.” A business leader who follows this principle will be sure to always have accurate accounting, fair billing, transparent performance metrics, honest advertising and clear claims about product risks and specifications.
Deuteronomy 24: “You shall give him [your worker] his wage on his day and not let the sun set over it.” A business leader will always pay his workers immediately and completely.
Leviticus 19 and 23: This commands that the landowner must leave a part of his field where the poor can reap. A business leader following this principle will identify how he can allocate some of his products and services — in addition to money — for the benefit of the less fortunate. And he will also do so with care for the dignity of the recipient — as this is why the poor are to reap themselves (rather than to get handouts from the landowner).
Jacobsen: What insights come out of Torah Tuesdays and Eagles Wings in interfaith collaboration?
I teach Torah every Tuesday at 12pm EST on Zoom to primarily Evangelicals — through the remarkable Christian Zionist and philo-Semitic parachurch ministry Eagles Wings. We go through the Torah line by line, extracting the practical teachings and lessons for our daily lives. I love the insights that the Pastor hosting the session (and the Pastor/hosts change each week) often bring from the New Testament and from their Christian experience. And it is such a pleasure to be able to study the text in such depth. We do about a book of the Torah (Genesis, Exodus, Leviticus, Numbers, Deuteronomy) every year. If anyone wants to join, email me at mgerson@godwasright.com — and we’ll send you the Zoom link!
Jacobsen: What is relevant and irrelevant in the interpretive frame from the Torah in navigating contemporary life? People orient the truths of religion and emphasize and de-emphasize in civilizational seasons. Ours seems no different.
Gerson: Great question — as everything in the Torah is completely relevant for navigating contemporary life. The Torah is the guidebook for just that. Every question, concern, challenge, opportunity that anyone has can be enlightened by the Torah in some profound and very helpful way. That is what “God Was Right” is about!
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Mark.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/21
Roman Tarasov, President of Street Epistemology International, is a leading advocate of respectful, Socratic-style dialogue for examining beliefs. Influenced by the rationalist community and inspired by Anthony Magnabosco, Tarasov promotes critical thinking and epistemic humility. With a calm and reflective style, he emphasizes rapport, empathy, and civil discourse to foster open-minded inquiry. He critiques common reasoning errors—such as overreliance on intuition, anecdotal evidence, and magical thinking—and sees dialogue as essential to mutual understanding. Tarasov also contributes to educational resources like the Navigating Beliefs course and highlights global efforts to expand Street Epistemology’s reach through videos, training modules, and community engagement.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Roman Tarasov is a prominent advocate of Street Epistemology and the president of Street Epistemology International, a conversational method for examining beliefs through respectful dialogue. Known for his calm demeanor and reflective questioning style, Tarasov engages individuals in thoughtful discussions that encourage critical thinking and epistemic humility. He contributes regularly to the Street Epistemology community through online videos, social media, and educational resources. With a background in philosophy and a passion for civil discourse, Tarasov emphasizes open-minded inquiry over debate. His work aims to foster mutual understanding and personal growth by helping others examine the foundations of their beliefs in non-confrontational settings. So what initially drew you to Street Epistemology? How did you get involved in the community?
Roman Tarasov: So I was already into learning about rationality, mostly from the LessWrong community—Eliezer Yudkowsky as an author, primarily, and others as well. And then I just bumped into Anthony Magnabosco’s YouTube channel and got inspired by it. That’s what got me into it.
Jacobsen: Now, what do you find people are generally good at reasoning about? And what do you find they are bad at reasoning about—either based on Magnabosco’s videos or the broader collective work of Street Epistemology?
Tarasov: Yeah, we already have a huge database—not just by Anthony, but by others conducting conversations, including myself. I would say the main problem people have is simply not understanding how science works. They do not know how to think in terms of hypotheses, testing, or designing experiments. As a result, they commit all kinds of fallacies. That, I would say, is the main issue.
As for what people are good at, I would say it is actually criticizing ideas they disagree with. The highest level of critical thinking I see—especially from people who are not well-versed or educated in the field—often comes out when they try to refute others’ views. I only wish they would bring the same fervor to challenging their own beliefs.
Jacobsen: So, in terms of the foundations of Street Epistemology and to your point, would that be a key reason why conversation and dialogue are so important?
Tarasov: I am not sure about that being the only reason. I would just say that conversation and dialogue are important, period, for all kinds of reasons. That is who we are. We have language—and that is one of the main powers we have as human beings.
Jacobsen: That is a good one. What do you think are common epistemological themes or patterns you notice based on Magnabosco’s long catalog of conversations—or the data you and others have gathered?
Tarasov: What do you mean by themes?
Jacobsen: I mean logical themes. Just like we were discussing earlier—how people are really good at criticizing others’ ideas, but do not apply the same level of scrutiny to their own beliefs. What kinds of fallacies do they tend to commit? What are the styles of faulty reasoning you commonly encounter?
Tarasov: Astrology is huge everywhere in the world, as are all kinds of other esoteric or magical thinking themes—that is a massive category, of course. But there are others. I do not think any of us have conducted a population-level poll to know which themes are the most prevalent globally or within specific demographics. But yes, magical thinking in general is widespread, and I consider it to be one of the biggest epistemological problems in the world.
There are also people who are relativistic, dogmatic, or who simply make the same types of reasoning errors in everyday life, even without invoking magical thinking. As for your second question about themes of reasoning: one of the main issues is that people place too much weight on personal experience and anecdotal evidence. They also rely heavily on their intuition, which, as we know, is not always reliable—especially when it comes to evaluating complex or abstract issues.
Unless someone has educated themselves in scientific thinking and the scientific method, their intuition is not designed—evolutionarily speaking—to solve these kinds of problems. And often, they do not even know that they lack the necessary tools or that they are reasoning incorrectly.
Jacobsen: So what is the role of empathy in Street Epistemology, and how do you handle highly charged or confrontational conversations?
Tarasov: The role of empathy is huge. Although, I would even say that instead of “empathy,” we often use the word “rapport.” That is because “empathy” can have at least two meanings: one is feeling what the other person feels—putting yourself in their emotional shoes. The other is simply understanding what the other person is saying and accepting them as they are.
We typically emphasize “rapport,” meaning that you need a friendly, respectful atmosphere to have a meaningful conversation. Without it, nothing really works. People have all kinds of psychological defense mechanisms. If you begin to question deeply held beliefs, many people get defensive—it is not necessarily conscious, it is just a natural psychological response. So it is very important not to pressure people, to be respectful and civil, and to build and maintain rapport throughout the conversation.
That rapport should also extend beyond the immediate interaction, because the nature of your overall relationship can significantly affect how the conversation unfolds.
I would say, if you find yourself in the middle of a charged or confrontational conversation, then you have probably already failed somewhere—you have likely made a mistake. You need to accept that and focus on mitigating the situation. The key is to fall back and try to rebuild rapport. We actually have tools for that.
Right now, we are working on an educational course called Navigating Beliefs. It is free and available online. We have already written and published a module titled Building and Maintaining Rapport—that is module number six. In the final section of that module, we cover tools for recovering rapport if it has been lost—what to do, how to approach it.
Jacobsen: Is the short answer that it is difficult?
Tarasov: Yes, of course—it is difficult. If someone is already defensive, emotional, or confrontational, one of the main strategies I recommend is to simply pause. Do not try to push through. Let things calm down. It might even be best to end the conversation for the time being and return to it on another day. That alone can be one of the most effective strategies.
Beyond that, it really comes down to respect, empathy, and understanding. You do not want to escalate anything. At least within the goals of Street Epistemology, if you aim to have a meaningful conversation—if you hope to help your conversation partner critically reflect on their reasoning or beliefs—you must maintain a civil, friendly atmosphere.
Jacobsen: I am picturing the proverbial cartoon character spinning on their heel, whistling, and walking away with their hands in their pockets. Do you find that religious beliefs, political beliefs, or personal beliefs—even beliefs about oneself—are the most difficult or challenging to pierce through, in terms of perception? I do not want to call it delusion, but perhaps a less accurate view of reality. How do you navigate those conversations?
Tarasov: I see two different aspects in that question. One is: what counts as delusional or mistaken? The other is: which topics are more difficult to discuss.
In terms of what is delusional, I would not use that term. We all have different political views, different perspectives on a wide range of issues. We cannot all be delusional. More often, it is just that some of us are more accurate or better informed than others in certain areas.
So, I would recommend not jumping to conclusions too quickly. One key mindset in Street Epistemology is being open to the possibility that you yourself could be wrong—not just the other person. If you enter a conversation only expecting your conversation partner to change their views, that can come off as hypocritical. And it simply does not work.
You need to be open-minded yourself in order to effectively model open-mindedness in others. That is essential. As for difficulty, yes—political views, for example, are among the most difficult subjects to discuss, as is anything closely tied to a person’s identity. You can think of beliefs in terms of core beliefs and peripheral beliefs. Some beliefs are closer to the core of someone’s identity—they see those beliefs as defining who they are.
For instance, if religious faith is a central part of someone’s life, that conversation will likely be very challenging. But if someone says they have religious faith yet are fairly indifferent about it—they do not attend church or engage with it actively—then it is usually easier to explore those ideas with them. The same goes for political views. People who are highly engaged in politics tend to hold their beliefs very deeply. And since politics is inherently polarizing, it can easily trigger conflict.
If the topic is especially timely—something currently dividing public opinion—it becomes even more difficult. When people hold opposing views, both sides often think the other side is not only wrong but irrational or even unintelligent. Those are the most challenging conversations. I suggest being extremely cautious with them. Only engage in such discussions if you have enough experience and have already established strong rapport. Otherwise, start with something less emotionally charged.
Jacobsen: How many countries is Street Epistemology active in, given the name Street Epistemology International?
Tarasov: That depends on what you mean. If you are asking about the formal membership of Street Epistemology International, then it is a small group—currently about eight members. Most are from the United States, with one member each from Germany, Canada, and Russia—that is me. So the board or leadership team is limited in scope.
But in terms of reach and coverage, I believe Street Epistemology is active in most regions of the world. I know there are active communities in Germany, France, Russia, and the United States. There are also individuals and small groups practicing or teaching Street Epistemology in Australia and other countries. So yes, it is international—and we hope it will grow even more so over time.
Jacobsen: What programs do you currently have that people should look into?
Tarasov: As I mentioned earlier, we are working on the Navigating Beliefs course. You can find it on the streetepistemology.com website—there is a link there. It is free, and you just need to subscribe. We have already published six modules, plus an introductory module.
That marks the completion of what we call Phase One. We are currently working on Phase Two, and there will also be a Phase Three. Each phase includes several modules that build on each other, offering both theory and practical tools for conducting meaningful conversations.
That is the most current and, I would say, the best educational resource we have right now—but it is text-based and self-directed. So for other materials, I would highly recommend watching videos on YouTube. That way, you can actually see how experienced Street Epistemologists conduct conversations—not just with strangers, but also with friends or acquaintances. You can observe how they build rapport, ask questions, and help people reflect. It is very educational and often inspiring.
Jacobsen: Who would you consider the intellectual founders of Street Epistemology? And who do you consider the main torchbearers now?
Tarasov: I would say the main torchbearer and the most visible founder—for me, at least—is Anthony Magnabosco. But he was originally inspired by Peter Boghossian, who coined the term “Street Epistemology.” There are others who have followed in Anthony’s footsteps and contributed significantly. One person I would mention is Reid Nicewonder, who runs the YouTube channel Cordial Curiosity, which I also highly recommend. He is also part of our organization.
Jacobsen: Do you have any favorite quotes from Street Epistemologists, or from people they have spoken with—something captured in a video where a person reflects and maybe changes their mind or says something revealing?
Tarasov: That is a good question. In terms of Street Epistemologists themselves, I do not have a specific favorite quote—we use a lot of different tools, mostly Socratic questioning. These are polite, respectful, but very focused questions that aim at the core of what our conversation partner is saying. But when it comes to responses from the people we talk to, yes—some moments stand out.
One of the favorite things any Street Epistemologist likes to hear is something like: “Wow, I never thought about it that way. I’m going to keep thinking about this. Thank you.” You can often see it in their eyes—when they look off into the distance, and you know they are genuinely reflecting. Sometimes, it may be the first time they have questioned a belief they have held for years, maybe even their whole life. And now, through some carefully phrased questions, they begin thinking about it in a new light. That kind of deep reflection is exactly what we aim to inspire.
Jacobsen: What is the weirdest belief you have ever heard come out of Russia? Something just absolutely out there.
Tarasov: One that comes to mind: a young woman once said that she does not like to attend other women’s weddings because she believes it decreases her own chances of getting married. That was her reasoning.
Jacobsen: I mean, technically, it does not really affect the “market,” because two people just exited the pool. Honestly, she should go to a wedding between two women—that would actually increase the number of men available relative to women. Hooray! You are thinking rationally about it.
Tarasov: [Laughs] Yes, but she was thinking in terms of some stereotype she had picked up somewhere. I think she even mentioned something about catching the bouquet, but I do not remember exactly—I do not want to misquote her.
Jacobsen: Well, maybe she keeps catching bouquets and is afraid she’ll catch something else—like a venereal disease. Anyway, Roman, thank you very much. It was nice to meet you.
Tarasov: Nice meeting you too, Scott. Thanks for the conversation.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/20
Dr. Peter Bach, Chief Medical Officer of DELFI Diagnostics, discusses the urgent need to improve lung cancer screening. While low-dose CT scans reduce mortality, they are underused, with only 5–15% of eligible Americans screened. Bach explains how DELFI’s blood-based test, FirstLook Lung, analyzes cell-free DNA fragmentation to detect cancer earlier with 80% sensitivity and 99.8% negative predictive value. Bach emphasizes informed clinical decision-making and equitable access, especially for underserved populations. Widespread adoption could save up to 10,000 lives annually, making it the most impactful cancer screening strategy available.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So today, we’re here with Dr. Peter Bach. He is the Chief Medical Officer of Delfi Diagnostics, leading efforts to advance blood-based early detection of lung cancer. Dr. Bach is a pulmonary physician, health policy expert, and lung cancer epidemiologist. He previously served as Director of the Center for Health Policy and Outcomes at Memorial Sloan Kettering Cancer Center. His work focuses on improving cancer care through research, policy innovation, and clinical practice. He is a widely published author in leading medical journals such as The New England Journal of Medicine and JAMA and has advised national health agencies, including CMS and MedPAC. Motivated in part by the loss of his wife to breast cancer, Dr. Bach is committed to transforming cancer diagnostics and patient outcomes. Thank you very much for joining me today. So, my first question: Can you tell me a little bit about your background—an overview relevant to this particular news item around CT scans, lung cancer, and the work of Delfi?
Dr. Peter Bach: Yes, of course, Scott. The work that just came out is highly relevant to what we’re doing at Delfi. We’re focused on solving a significant public health problem: although there’s strong evidence that lung cancer screening with low-dose CT (LDCT) saves lives, it is significantly underutilized.
Studies, including large randomized trials like NLST and NELSON, have shown that annual LDCT screening for people with a significant smoking history can reduce lung cancer mortality by about 20 to 24 percent. However, adoption has been low despite being recommended in the U.S. since 2013 by the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF). In the U.S., screening rates hover around 5 to 15 percent among eligible adults. It’s even lower in many other countries. And even among people who do get screened, follow-up adherence—especially for annual repeat scans—is quite poor, often around 20 to 25 percent.
Part of the reason is that CT scanning, while clinically powerful, comes with challenges at scale. First, it often detects pulmonary nodules that are not cancerous. However, once these are seen, patients must undergo further imaging and, in some cases, invasive diagnostic procedures, which add anxiety, cost, and potential harm. Second, there’s a population-level concern: radiation exposure from repeated CT scans might increase cancer risk in some individuals, especially over long periods.
At DELFI, we’ve developed a blood-based test using fragmentomics—analyzing patterns of cell-free DNA fragmentation in the bloodstream. By studying the size and distribution of DNA fragments, we can detect cancer-specific signals, including those associated with lung cancer, often before symptoms appear. The goal is to use this test as an initial screen to identify who truly needs a follow-up CT scan—thereby reducing unnecessary scans, minimizing harm, and potentially improving adherence and outcomes.
And today, people aren’t getting screened as often as they should, but we do need more screening to save lives. With our approach, we can identify those patients who are most likely to have lung cancer and focus on getting them the CT scan—making each CT more likely to find actual lung cancer. That makes each unit of radiation delivered more likely to result in an early diagnosis, which is the whole purpose of screening. It also makes the nodules you find less likely to be false positives and more likely to be cancers you’re aiming to detect. That’s what we’ve been working on.
We have an AI-driven approach to genomic analysis. We’ve built our lab around a very low-cost sequencing platform, so we can offer this test at scale for just a few hundred dollars. We’ve launched this with several health systems now and are seeing improvements in screening rates.
And it all ties together—taking the best of what CT has to offer, including clinical benefits like clear visualization and next steps in diagnosis, while trying to limit radiation exposure to people who don’t actually have cancer and therefore won’t benefit from the scan.
Jacobsen: One side question comes up from that response. When you’re talking about scale in terms of screening, what was the pricing like years ago? You mentioned the test now costs a few hundred dollars—what about 10 years ago? So that we can get a sense of cost reduction over time.
Bach: You’re talking about the CT scan, the reimbursement rate has been pretty stable over the last decade, around $300. That hasn’t changed much.
Jacobsen: Okay, that’s very interesting. Now, to move into the more formal questions: What are your initial thoughts on the new study suggesting CT scans may account for up to 5% of annual cancer cases in the U.S.?
Bach: It’s frightening on its face—that the amount of imaging we’re doing in this country could be causing that much cancer.
Now, this estimate is based on lifetime exposure and population-level risk. So, while the risk to an individual patient might be quite low, say, for a specific diagnostic decision, the aggregate effect across millions of people becomes substantial. That’s the critical point. Whenever we decide to image someone, even when the risk to them is minimal and the clinical value high, it still contributes to a cumulative population-level burden.
There are valid questions about the exact size of the estimate in this study, but directionally, it’s almost certainly correct—CT scans contribute to increased cancer incidence. We should factor this into public health decisions.
I should say that CT used for lung cancer screening is explicitly not a major contributor to that 5% estimate, even if screening rates were to increase. That’s due to the limited eligible population and the relatively low radiation dose of low-dose CT (LDCT) scans. But the concern lies in the broader use of CT across medicine—in emergency departments, hospitals, and outpatient care.
Jacobsen: How should primary care physicians think about this risk-benefit balance?
Bach: I’d compare it to how we think about antibiotics for colds. The threshold for using advanced imaging, like a CT scan—should be high. Some patients benefit from imaging, and CT scans can be life-saving. But as a general rule, clinicians should ask: “Am I likely to learn something from this scan that I don’t already know?” That mindset helps reduce unnecessary tests and the downstream consequences, both clinical and societal.
Another way of saying this is: Am I likely to do something different in terms of this patient’s management once I see the scan compared to what I’m planning to do now? That’s the key question. If you want to be more technical, you can think of it as the incremental value of information.
But it’s a crucial element for any diagnostic test—especially one that carries potential harm. And, of course, there are financial costs, too. That is the basic question physicians should ask themselves, quite literally, before ordering any of these tests.
It’s also essential, Scott, not to lose sight of the fact that CT scans are necessary in many areas of patient care. I don’t want you or anyone to come away from this thinking we’re just exposing millions of people to radiation for no benefit. That’s not the case.
CT has been transformational in my medical career. For example, it has dramatically changed how we manage appendicitis. Early in my training, if you suspected appendicitis, the standard practice was to take the patient straight to surgery. A CT scan can confirm the diagnosis and avoid unnecessary surgeries. The same applies to gallbladder disease and many other conditions.
So yes, at the population level, CT scans can have harm, but they’ve also spared countless patients from invasive procedures. I could list 50 examples. CT is also critical for cancer staging, assessing disease spread, and other essential evaluations. The benefits must be carefully weighed against the risks, but there’s no question that CT is an indispensable medical tool.
Jacobsen: Are blood-based cancer screening tests reshaping diagnostic strategies and reducing radiation exposure?
Bach: Yes, especially in the context of lung cancer screening. Let’s talk about our test because it’s particularly relevant here. CT scans are currently the only screening method recommended by the USPSTF for lung cancer.
Our blood test, FirstLook Lung, is designed as an initial screening tool. And yes, a blood draw does not involve radiation. There’s a needle stick, which is mildly uncomfortable, but it’s not harmful in the way radiation exposure can be.
Our test uses fragmentomics, analyzing cell-free DNA fragmentation patterns. It has a sensitivity of about 80% overall, meaning it detects approximately 80% of lung cancers. When the result is elevated, it comes back with a clear recommendation: this person should get a follow-up CT scan.
The negative predictive value is 99.8% for patients with a non-elevated result. That means if our test does not detect a concerning fragmentation pattern, you can be 99.8% certain the patient does not have lung cancer that would be seen on a CT scan. That’s incredibly useful for informed conversations between physicians and patients, particularly those eligible for screening.
Now, armed with that result, a patient and their doctor can discuss whether they want to get a CT now or wait a year and retest.
The idea is to improve access, since blood tests are easier and more scalable than arranging CT scans—and focus resources on the subset of eligible patients most likely to benefit. Our test helps those people get the imaging they need to catch cancer early.
And importantly, our sensitivity for stage I lung cancer, which is the most curable stage, is also around 80%.
So, we can be confident that we’ll find those individuals who genuinely do have lung cancer. For everyone else, if the test comes back not elevated, we can say with high certainty that the likelihood that you have lung cancer is very, very low. Then, we can work together to make the best decision for that person—whether that means doing a CT scan now, having them come back in a year, or taking some other approach.
Jacobsen: What are the systemic drivers behind the overuse or misuse of CT scans?
Bach: I think I want to challenge the premise of the question if that’s okay.
Jacobsen: Sure.
Bach: This paper did not demonstrate widespread overuse of CT scanning. What it did show is that the collective volume of CT scans being performed is contributing to cancer incidence. And I don’t want to minimize that importance—it’s serious. It’s deeply concerning that the medical technology we use to help people may cause harm to the aggregate.
If we take the study at face value, we’re talking about a meaningful number of cancer cases caused by CT-related radiation exposure. That is not good news.
However, we must also recognize that CT scans are not being ordered “willy-nilly.” In the vast majority of cases, they’re used to evaluate legitimate signs or symptoms of disease and are highly effective in doing so. This study doesn’t tell us whether CT scans are being overused, whether they’re being used appropriately but not in the right patient groups or whether they’re being used in some combination. The study does not answer that.
That said, we must make prudent decisions with any diagnostic tool, particularly one that involves ionizing radiation. We must ask ourselves those two key questions before ordering a scan:
- Will I learn something from this test that I don’t already know?
- Will this test result cause me to change how I manage the patient?
Jacobsen: What are the emotional or ethical complexities physicians face with this new knowledge—that CT scans may contribute to cancer?
Bach: The most important thing, and most doctors do this already, is explaining the risks and the benefits of any medical procedure or test.
We’re accustomed to this in surgical contexts—before surgery, we’ll explain the possibility of complications like infection or bleeding and the benefits. What’s less often appreciated is that something like a CT scan, although it’s “just a test,” actually functions more like a medical procedure because of the radiation exposure. It carries both risks and benefits.
So, when physicians discuss CT scans with their patients, they should clearly explain:
- The upside is that we may gain valuable information to help diagnose or guide treatment.
- The downside is that there is a small, individual-level risk of radiation-induced cancer.
Now, for any one patient, the increase in risk is very small—almost negligible. But when you zoom out to the population level across millions, you see that it adds up. The estimate from the study suggests that up to 5% of U.S. cancer cases could be attributable to CT radiation. I think that number is somewhat overestimated—for technical reasons related to modelling assumptions—but that doesn’t change the directional truth of the finding.
Jacobsen: How does personal experience—such as losing your wife to cancer—if you’re willing to speak to it, influence your views on the urgency of developing safer diagnostics?
Bach: What I’ve gone through personally has influenced how I think about the practice of medicine in specific ways, but not on this front. I was fortunate. My wife was lucky in terms of the quality of care she received. It was both technically excellent and tender and humane.
So, no—this specific work is not personally driven in that way. What drives me in my professional life is the opportunity and importance of helping people whose lives could be saved—people who would not die of lung cancer if we screened at the levels we should be.
To give you a rough estimate, if we went from today’s lung cancer screening rates—about 10% of eligible individuals being screened—up to 80%, which is more in line with where we are for breast and colorectal cancer screening, we would save around 10,000 lives per year. That is the largest impact any cancer screening program could have, period.
And it is a substantial unmet need, particularly for an often underserved population. Smoking is more prevalent among people with lower socioeconomic status and lower educational attainment and is more common in certain minority populations.
Because of all that, this is precisely the population that could benefit the most from more accessible screening approaches, like blood tests.
That’s why I’ve devoted my career to identifying effective tools and technologies and figuring out how to get them to the people who will benefit from them.
Jacobsen: Thank you. What patient populations are more vulnerable to the harms of repeated CT imaging?
Bach: Right. I mentioned earlier that this recent study isn’t particularly relevant to low-dose CT (LDCT) lung cancer screening, and this question addresses one of the key reasons why.
When you think about how radiation causes cancer, there are two main variables:
- How much radiation a person receives.
- How long they live afterward—in other words, how much time there is for that radiation to result in cancer potentially.
So, those two factors combine to make younger people—and especially children—more vulnerable to radiation-induced cancer. If you’re a child and receive radiation, you simply have more years ahead of you, which increases the chance that harmful mutations will eventually lead to cancer. Contrast that with someone who’s, say, 70 years old and undergoing LDCT for lung cancer screening—their remaining lifespan is shorter, so the long-term risk is lower.
Another factor is the type and location of the CT scan. CT scans of the abdomen or pelvis often deliver higher radiation doses than scans of the lungs. That’s one reason LDCT—which uses much less radiation—is designed the way it is. It’salso why lung cancer screening with LDCT poses a relatively lower radiation risk compared to other uses of CT.
Again, while the study is important and highlights the population-level risks of CT imaging, it’s less relevant to low-dose CT screening for lung cancer. As the name implies, the “low dose” part is deliberate, and the lungs are relatively easy to image, which helps reduce the radiation exposure even further.
You don’t need that much radiation to image the lungs—because they’re mostly air. You’re essentially looking at air versus solid structures, and it doesn’t take much radiation to differentiate the two. That’s very different from scanning the abdomen, where you deal with many solid organs—like the pancreas, liver, and bowel—each with similar densities. In those cases, you need more radiation to separate one structure from another clearly.
But here’s the other important point—and I can say this because I’m in the age group: as you get older, you’re simply not around as long. So if the harm from radiation exposure manifests decades later, but you’re unlikely to be alive in 30 or 40 years, then the risk essentially disappears. That’s why, as people age—and we currently screen people up to age 80—the potential harms from radiation begin to mathematically diminish.
Jacobsen: A short follow-up: Why is the age limit set at 80 for lung cancer screening?
Bach: Great question. The reason it’s set at 80—rather than, say, 90—is based on simulation models that look at entire populations.
Here’s how they work:
- As you get older, your risk of having lung cancer increases, which argues for screening.
- But your life expectancy declines, which reduces the benefit of detecting and treating cancer.
Those two factors push in opposite directions. And age 80 is roughly where the balance still favours screening. At that point, you’re still likely to benefit—you’re likely to live long enough to receive treatment and recover.
Beyond 80, those benefits decline significantly. At 90, for instance, even if cancer is found, the likelihood of surviving long enough to benefit from treatment—surgery, recovery, follow-up-is—is low. So, national guideline bodies draw the line at 80. Of course, the real world is messier—there are many different ways to be 79 or 80—but these guidelines are based on population data and are meant to provide general direction.
Jacobsen: Last question—unless I think of a small follow-up. What healthcare innovations are helping reduce our reliance on high-radiation diagnostic tools?
Bach: Well, we’ve discussed one throughout this interview—our blood test for lung cancer. That’s a clear example of using an alternative technology that doesn’t involve radiation to identify patients most likely to benefit from a follow-up CT scan. That’s really the model: use a low-risk, scalable tool to determine who needs the higher-risk, resource-intensive follow-up.
Similar innovations exist in other areas. For example, in cardiology, we now have high-sensitivity blood tests for detecting reduced blood flow to the heart. This has helped reduce the number of patients who need to undergo cardiac catheterization, which also involves radiation.
There are likely more examples to come, but that’s the core idea: develop non-radiative, accessible diagnostics to triage and target more invasive, radiation-based tools. This improves safety, efficiency, and outcomes.
Jacobsen: Dr. Bach, I have no more questions. Thank you very much for your time and expertise today; it was a pleasure to meet you.
Bach: Thanks for your time as well, Scott. I hope you enjoy the rest of your day and your weekend.
Jacobsen: I will—I’ve got all the coffee and sunshine I need.
Bach: That’s fantastic. I’m glad to hear it.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/19
Irina Tsukerman is a human rights and national security attorney based in New York and Connecticut. She earned her Bachelor of Arts in National and Intercultural Studies and Middle East Studies from Fordham University in 2006, followed by a Juris Doctor from Fordham University School of Law in 2009. She operates a boutique national security law practice. She serves as President of Scarab Rising, Inc., a media and security strategic advisory firm. Additionally, she is the Editor-in-Chief of The Washington Outsider, which focuses on foreign policy, geopolitics, security, and human rights. She is actively involved in several professional organizations, including the American Bar Association’s Energy, Environment, and Science and Technology Sections, where she holds the position of Program Vice Chair in the Oil and Gas Committee. She is also a member of the New York City Bar Association. She serves on the Middle East and North Africa Affairs Committee and affiliates with the Foreign and Comparative Law Committee. Tsukerman discusses Israel’s covert strikes on Iran’s nuclear infrastructure, Austria’s school shooting, India’s Metabot plane crash amid sabotage suspicions, and U.S. consumer sentiment trends, while analyzing Elon Musk’s pragmatic reconciliation with Trump and his controversial ties with Russia. This interview was conducted on June 13, 2025.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, once again, I am delighted to have Irina Tsukerman, an American attorney and geopolitical analyst specializing in national security, human rights, and energy law. So, let us discuss Israel — we are recording this on June 13. All sources for today’s discussion are from Reuters. Other commentary exists, but our primary source today is Reuters.
Recently, Israel reportedly conducted strikes inside Iran amid ongoing nuclear tensions, resulting in the deaths of senior military figures. There has been widespread commentary about this development. What are your thoughts on the strike itself and the broader commentary?
Irina Tsukerman: This operation reflects years of strategic planning and intelligence gathering. While it is not accurate to say it was twenty years in preparation in a literal sense, Israel has long maintained contingency plans for striking Iran’s nuclear infrastructure and related assets. The decision to carry out such an operation always depends on a combination of intelligence assessments, regional circumstances, and political considerations.
What triggered this specific strike appears to be a convergence of factors: credible intelligence that Iran’s nuclear program has made substantial progress — with enriched uranium stockpiles exceeding the limits set by the now-defunct JCPOA (the nuclear deal) — and persistent concerns that Tehran could reach weapons-grade capability sooner than previously estimated. These assessments were corroborated not only by Israeli sources but also by international monitoring agencies like the IAEA, which confirmed that Iran’s uranium enrichment levels had again surpassed the agreed thresholds.
Diplomacy has stalled for years, both under the Trump administration, which withdrew from the JCPOA in 2018, and under subsequent efforts to revive talks, which have repeatedly broken down amid Iranian intransigence and regional tensions. Iran has rejected proposals it considers insufficient and has advanced its nuclear work despite negotiations.
The U.S., including under the current administration, has consistently urged restraint, preferring to avoid escalation and keep the diplomatic window open. However, Israel viewed this moment as an inflection point: the combination of alarming intelligence, continued Iranian defiance, and a shifting regional security picture made them calculate that a limited, precise strike could delay Iran’s military capabilities without provoking full-scale war.
Reports indicate that Israel informed the U.S. in advance and asked for deconfliction measures to avoid accidental clashes with American assets in the region. For the White House, while this was an unwelcome escalation, it arguably provides leverage by putting additional pressure on Tehran without direct U.S. involvement.
As for the operational side, the risk of failure was minimized by extensive infiltration and surveillance inside Iran — evidenced by previous Mossad operations that successfully exfiltrated Iranian nuclear archives and targeted key figures within Iran’s nuclear and military establishment. The strike reportedly focused on military and IRGC-linked sites rather than core civilian nuclear facilities, which reduces the chance of mass civilian casualties and makes such attacks more politically defensible.
As we have seen, the aftermath has been contained so far, though the risk of retaliation by Iran or its regional proxies remains significant. Israel built a drone factory inside Iran, close to key military facilities, with Iran reportedly unaware of it for quite some time. This is very similar, if you think about it, to what happened recently in Russia, where Ukraine allegedly operated intelligence networks near sensitive sites, including close to an FSB building, and launched operations from there. So, it is a comparable scenario. I wonder if there was some level of coordination — whether the Ukrainians were inspired by that particular tactic or received some training or operational insight from the Israelis and Americans.
Regardless, we know that not only did the airstrikes kill multiple officials, but Israel also had assets on the ground that carried out targeted assassinations in person, not just through aerial strikes. This shows that the intelligence was top-notch and deeply embedded.
Israel did something else quite strategic: it deliberately misled everyone, including Iran and Russia, by signalling that it would wait for another round of nuclear talks before taking action — if those talks failed. They did not wait, which is why so many key officials were still gathered in vulnerable locations rather than hidden in bunkers or relocated abroad, where they would have been harder to reach. For years, none of these plans leaked, and even more recently, despite the close intelligence cooperation between Russia and Iran — formalized in agreements just a few months ago — they were unable to protect each other from breaches or infiltration. This all but guaranteed Israel’s success.
The operation was indeed effective. Israel reportedly inflicted damage on the Natanz nuclear facility — which is notoriously well-defended and hardened — as well as other sites. While it is unlikely that Israel alone could destroy Iran’s entire nuclear infrastructure without U.S. military support, causing significant damage can still set the program back by months or even years. Additionally, eliminating senior nuclear scientists severely disrupts Iran’s technical capacity.
In retaliation, Iran immediately launched hundreds of drones and missiles toward Israel. At least one reportedly struck inside Tel Aviv. However, most damage has so far been infrastructural, with several people suffering light to moderate injuries but no confirmed fatalities at this point. This response was anticipated. Israel’s air defences, including the Iron Dome and other layers, have so far performed well.
While some observers worry about further escalation, regional instability, flight cancellations, and oil price spikes, the reality is that this operation could benefit regional security in the long term. Iran has been a significant source of destabilization for decades, supporting proxy militias and stirring conflict throughout the Middle East. Reducing its military and nuclear capabilities constrains its ability to project force and sponsor violence, which is only positive for its neighbours and global energy markets.
Jacobsen: There was also a tragic incident in Austria — a person was killed in a school. Details are still emerging, and the investigation is ongoing. How do you think this might influence Austria’s security policies? Will they follow trends seen in other countries after similar attacks?
Tsukerman: It is new territory for Austria, which historically has not faced school shootings or comparable attacks as frequently as countries like the United States. One reason often cited is Austria’s stricter gun laws. However, the issue is not just about firearms access; it is also cultural. We are seeing a global trend where violence, including mass or symbolic violence, is becoming more visible and, in some circles, more normalized, partly due to instant global communication and social media amplification.
I expect Austria to review its security policies for schools and public venues, possibly implementing tighter controls, surveillance, or preventive measures similar to those adopted by other European countries in response to isolated but impactful attacks. They will likely balance this with their privacy and civil liberties standards, which are stronger than in some other jurisdictions.
You watch something that happens somewhere else, and you become inspired by it. The more it is promoted, the more widespread it becomes, and the more international attention it attracts, the more likely it is that individuals who want to stand out — or feel a need to act out — will pick up on it.
In this case, the murderer reportedly claimed he had been bullied and had failed in his academic goals. In other words, he was not accepted to his preferred programs, he did not perform well academically, and he became bitter and resentful. Instead of seeking help, improving himself, or finding healthier ways to cope, he chose to take out his anger on innocent people.
Unfortunately, this is a typical pattern. Many previous school shootings have involved individuals with similar backgrounds — feelings of rejection, resentment, or failure. Austria was less prepared for this because such incidents were sporadic there. This might have been the first of its kind in that context.
We also know that his mother tried to intervene and warn authorities, but it was too late to prevent the attack. So, despite an effort to stop it early, it did not work logistically or quickly enough.
It is often challenging to identify such individuals promptly. Many people feel bullied or unsuccessful at some point in life; many people have psychological issues or depression, but the vast majority never turn violent. So, distinguishing which individual is actually on the path to violence has become more of an art than a science. Even when people post threats online, it is challenging to determine whether they intend to act or are merely venting. Social media is now so flooded with noise, bots, and empty threats that it is increasingly challenging to filter genuine red flags from background noise.
Unfortunately, there is no foolproof way to prevent these incidents 100% of the time other than staying vigilant, improving reporting mechanisms, and acting quickly when credible threats do surface.
Jacobsen: Switching topics: There was a crash involving Alt India’s Metabot airplane. News outlets and local teams are reporting from the scene. Casualties have been confirmed, and an investigation is underway. Possible causes include pilot error, technical failure, or weather conditions. What are your thoughts on this, including the likely impact on public confidence in India’s aviation sector? It appears that there have been numerous such incidents recently, not just in India but worldwide.
Tsukerman: Yes — a few factors come to mind immediately. Unfortunately, India does not have the strongest reputation for aircraft maintenance and airline reliability. While some airlines operate very safely, Air India, in particular, has had past issues, including reports of negligence or poor oversight. There have also been incidents involving military aircraft where parts were poorly maintained or even detached mid-flight. My first instinct upon hearing about this was that human error or inadequate maintenance could be significant factors.
However, initial reports suggest other possibilities as well — technical malfunctions unrelated to human error, possible bird strikes, or other unexpected factors. Some very unusual details have emerged: before the situation deteriorated completely, the pilot attempted to contact air traffic control to report multiple system failures, including a breakdown of basic communications. This suggests that it was not solely a pilot error but rather a combination of technical and environmental factors.
As for the public’s confidence in aviation, such incidents do shake people’s trust, especially when they happen in clusters. That said, air travel remains statistically very safe, and each major accident usually triggers improvements in safety protocols, maintenance standards, and pilot training. India’s aviation authorities will be under pressure to investigate thoroughly and show visible reforms to reassure the public.
That is not consistent with the usual kind of isolated error — like an engine failure, a single part malfunctioning, or routine maintenance being overlooked. It sounded more like a systemic failure affecting multiple components at once.
What could cause that? It may be too early to draw firm conclusions, but a few things have raised eyebrows among security analysts. For example, a Turkish company reportedly relocated its operations to that city just days before the crash. Some suspect that the company has indirect ties to the Turkish government.
Turkey has, in the past, played a background role in supporting certain militant groups that carried out attacks in Kashmir using Pakistani networks. Of course, it is doubtful that the Turkish government would directly target a civilian aircraft. If Ankara wanted to undermine India, it would more plausibly do so indirectly, perhaps by supporting proxy actors behind the scenes. Moreover, some people are beginning to suspect that this could be an act of sabotage motivated by local ideological or geopolitical interests.
Whether this company — which is reportedly named Gilebi — is working for the Turkish government or played any role at all remains unproven at this point. However, the fact that it relocated its 450 employees from Alsace to Ahmedabad just weeks before the incident has drawn attention.
Regarding the technical details, there are reports of a possible hydraulic system leak affecting the nose gear and lift settings, as well as some indications that the landing gear did not deploy properly. Again, these are early leaks, not official findings, but so far, no single explanation fully accounts for all the failures that happened simultaneously.
While negligence or overlooked maintenance could certainly be part of the story, many analysts think that alone is unlikely to explain a cascading systems failure of this scale. If it does turn out to involve intentional sabotage — whether by a rogue private entity or as a proxy act for another state — that will raise significant questions about how to respond and secure India’s aviation sector going forward.
Already, India–Turkey relations have been tense at the popular level. After the Kashmir attacks, there were large protests and calls for boycotts of Turkish products. Ankara has also been increasingly active among Indian Muslim communities — sometimes providing genuine humanitarian aid but also, critics say, stoking divisions with local Hindu communities in cities like Mumbai.
So, what will ultimately come of this remains to be seen. However, the fact that these concerns are being raised not only by random online accounts but also by reputable journalists suggests that there is at least some basis to investigate whether sabotage was a factor — perhaps not an outright terrorist attack, but deliberate tampering that caused critical equipment to fail. That is one scenario investigators cannot ignore at this stage.
But, of course, it is still too early to conclude the cause of the crash. So far, Prime Minister Modi has refrained from making any statements that would suggest it was a deliberate or malicious act by any party. He has focused instead on providing a supportive presence and allowing investigators to do their work.
Jacobsen: Switching topics — consumer sentiment in the United States improved in June, which was unexpected. Some analysts think this is driven by lower inflation expectations and a generally stable economic outlook. I have conducted numerous interviews with businesspeople, entrepreneurs, and finance experts, and they often say that “business loves stability.” Therefore, if people perceive stability, it is beneficial for business confidence. What does this positive trend indicate about the intersection of politics and business in the U.S. right now — and how do business leaders see it affecting citizens more broadly?
Tsukerman: Just a few months ago, many people were bracing for the worst because Trump was publicly threatening sweeping tariffs on a wide range of countries. He made big announcements, started negotiations, and then often backtracked or watered down the tariffs — or delayed them altogether. So, there is a sense of relief now that the worst-case trade scenarios have not yet materialized.
There is a genuine reason for improved consumer confidence: for now, things are more stable than people feared. There have been no sudden, drastic new moves from the administration lately. One significant factor was the court rulings that limited Trump’s ability to impose or escalate tariffs without congressional approval unilaterally. That court pushback reduces the likelihood of abrupt trade policy swings and, in turn, eases inflationary pressures.
Of course, this does not guarantee long-term stability. Congress could still authorize new tariffs if it aligns politically, and Trump has shown a willingness to ignore or fight court orders when it suits him. So, it is not entirely off the table — but the path is now more constrained than it seemed a few months ago.
Overall, the current outlook is relatively calm. There is a sense of continuity in other areas as well, such as efforts to secure critical rare earth supplies and maintain trade agreements — for example, no abrupt break with Canada, which is reassuring.
Ironically, the escalating crisis with Iran may also push the administration to focus more on foreign policy and less on disrupting trade partners unnecessarily. It is a grim silver lining: Sometimes, a serious external conflict shifts attention away from self-inflicted trade battles. It is a sad commentary on public expectations, but it does explain part of the improvement in consumer sentiment.
One other quirky factor: Elon Musk recently reconciled with Trump after a period of very public tension. Musk even apologized soon after his father, Errol Musk — who has often rebuked him — publicly defended him against rumours of drug use and urged him to mend fences with Trump. That thaw may also contribute slightly to market optimism, as investors tend to watch prominent personalities like Musk and Trump closely.
In summary, things are calmer for now; the worst trade shocks have not happened yet, the courts have clipped some presidential power, and influential business figures are trying to smooth over conflicts. All of that supports a more stable economic mood — at least for the moment.
But really, it was not just one thing that pushed Musk toward reconciling with Trump — it was a combination of factors. Trump threatened to terminate key government contracts, and things were moving in a bad direction for Musk financially and politically. It is not that Musk had no leverage; he did. He threatened, for example, to restrict government access to Starlink or use other forms of pressure. However, in the end, the government holds the bigger cards — quite literally, it has the contracts and the regulatory power, and it can always outlast a private player.
Additionally, Musk is no longer the only businessman with a private satellite network. There are no other companies in the market that significantly undercut the unique leverage he had for years as the only major player in that arena. Once it became clear that he could not win the standoff, reconciliation became the pragmatic choice.
Jacobsen: Speaking of Errol Musk and Lavrov — they are at this future-themed conference or “2050 panel” in Moscow or maybe Saint Petersburg. Do you have any thoughts on this gathering?
Tsukerman: Yes — Errol Musk was praising Russia at that event, calling it the “New Rome,” which is surreal. Elon, for all his criticism of his father, resembles him in more ways than he would admit. Politics is one of them. They both tend to flirt with authoritarian figures and adopt a performative contrarian stance.
Moreover, yes, they both exhibit a pattern of fathering children somewhat indiscriminately, but that is probably the least concerning commonality. Unfortunately, their gravitation toward Russian elites is another similarity — and the reasons are murky. It could be a blend of admiration for strongman politics, personal financial interests, possible kompromat (which would not be surprising given confident lifestyle choices and poor judgment), or simply an ideological affinity for anti-Western narratives.
What makes it more troubling is that it seems genuine. It goes beyond the usual cynical opportunism of doing business with everyone. You do not hear Elon Musk gushing about Indonesia or spending time cozying up to the leadership of mineral-rich African nations. Russia holds a peculiar attraction for him and, to a lesser extent, for Errol too — who now pops up on various channels acting as a kind of fringe propagandist by association.
Given Elon’s reach and power to influence public discourse through platforms like X, it is crucial to understand these ties better. They shape how people perceive conflicts, power blocs, and even the legitimacy of Western institutions.
Jacobsen: Any final thoughts or smaller stories worth flagging before we wrap up?
Tsukerman: Those were the significant points for now. However, this is unlikely to be the last clash between Musk and Trump. Their personalities almost guarantee future tension. Musk has the money; Trump currently has the presidential power. At some point, that rivalry will resurface, especially if Musk tries to shape the post-Trump landscape with significant political donations. We have already seen Trump hint at retaliating if Musk supports Democrats or rival Republicans. So, more drama ahead, indeed.
Jacobsen: Irene, thank you very much for your time again today — always insightful.
Tsukerman: Thank you! Looking forward to continuing next week.
Jacobsen: Sounds good. Talk soon.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/19
Brigitte Charlton-Vicenty, founder of the Inner City Green Team Economic and Environmental Development (ICGT), leads a pioneering recycling initiative serving New York City Housing Authority (NYCHA) residents. ICGT combines door-to-door pickup, environmental education, and behavioral rewards to promote sustainability and social impact. The program has expanded to include textile and food waste collection, while creating jobs and fostering civic engagement. Partnering with artists and organizations like Mika Rottenberg, Precious Plastics-NYC, and Food Cycle Science, ICGT aims to launch a Climate Action Center, which they have named S.P.A.R.K (South Bronx Pact for Reclamation and Knowledge), to further its mission. With over 400,000 NYCHA residents potentially impacted, ICGT offers a replicable model of environmental justice and grassroots leadership.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So today, we’re here with Brigitte Vicenty.
She is the founder of the Inner City Green Team (ICGT). ICGT is a sustainable, scalable, and replicable recycling initiative operating within New York City Housing Authority (NYCHA) developments. It provides a community-based, door-to-door recycling service designed to meet the specific challenges faced by public housing residents. The program partners with organizations such as environmental support agencies to promote job creation and ecological justice.
What makes ICGT unique is its resident-centered, service-based approach. It combines education, direct collection of recyclables, and behavioural incentives such as a rewards system to increase participation. The initiative is helping NYCHA residents divert significant volumes of recyclable material from landfills, ultimately saving public funds and creating green jobs within the community. The program has the potential to benefit over 400,000 residents in NYCHA housing across the city. The goal is to reach all NYCHA campuses across the five boroughs eventually. So, what inspired the creation of ICGT?
Brigitte Vicenty: The idea came to me when I realized that NYCHA—being the most largest public housing authority in the country—was not meaningfully participating in recycling, even though recycling has been mandatory in New York City since 1989.
For a long time, there were no recycling bins in front of many NYCHA buildings. When they finally began installing the bins, I was excited. As an environmentalist from a young age, I was eager to do my part. I started separating my recyclables and using the bins. However, I later learned that all the material was being thrown out with the regular trash.
I was stunned—and incredibly frustrated. We thought we were doing our civic duty, only to find out that our efforts were in vain. That realization became my moment of obligation. The non-profit organization was not yet called Inner City Green Team at the time, but that was the beginning. I started asking, Why is this happening? I made calls, connected with local officials, and began investigating the cause of the breakdown in recycling services at NYCHA. That investigation became activism. That activism became ICGT.
Jacobsen: You mentioned your upbringing in New York City. Did that shape your environmental awareness?
Vicenty: My incredible mother was a pillar in the community. She was focused on youth development and making real change. Watching her in action had a significant influence on me. She showed people how to uplift themselves and others.
Even now—nearly 27 years after her passing—those who knew her well still talk about her in the highest regard and even call me by her name. They share stories about the influence she had on their lives. One example that stuck with me was a man who had been incarcerated. He remembered my mother from his childhood and told me how she had impacted him. That kind of legacy stays with you. It’s a big part of why I do this work.
Some of her work included teaching etiquette classes—dining etiquette, you know, where the plates go, where the forks go, and so forth. She took pride in it. When that same man I mentioned earlier was incarcerated, he began teaching etiquette classes in prison. He said, “Your mother inspired me because that’s what she did.” He turned it into something meaningful, something he passed on to others. There are many stories like that.
Yes, my mother is indeed my muse. I have always been drawn to service because I have seen how deeply it affects people. I wanted to do that kind of work—I wanted to have that superpower. I did not want to do precisely what my mother did, but I had this deep, innate desire to serve. And eventually, my passion for the environment and this desire to serve came together—and here we are.
Jacobsen: I travelled to New York City for the first time this past March—for two whole weeks—for the 69th session of the UN Commission on the Status of Women. I walked around a lot in Manhattan, Lower Manhattan, and even parts of Long Island. One thing that struck me was how, in some areas, the garbage disposal systems seemed off—like the infrastructure might be outdated or overwhelmed. There were streets where garbage bags were piled 10 feet high.
I’m from a small town, so it was pretty stark to see. I was walking with a New Yorker, and she said, “This is just normal.”So, with that scale of waste production, how does your door-to-door recycling pickup model work?
Vicenty: It works by educating residents about waste management. Most people don’t think about it. Growing up in the 1960s, I recall a sanitation strike in New York City that lasted nine days, and the trash piled up to what looked to be 10 feet high. Over 100,000 tons of trash had not been collected. It was overwhelming. You could not avoid it; it was right in your face.
Those who were affected gained the understanding that waste management is not a guarantee, so it should be regarded as a privilege. Although our tax dollars fund sanitation services, people don’t regard these services as a privilege; most of the time, they take having the infrastructure in place for granted. What we are doing at the Inner City Green Team is educating people about the culture of disposability. In this throw-away society, we teach that everything doesn’t have to be placed in the garbage just because you no longer have use for it.
We work to redirect that mindset through community outreach and education. Our messaging focuses on the six Rs: recycle, reuse, repurpose, repair, refuse, and rethink. That’s where our impact lies.
It is about showing—not just telling—people that recycling and waste reduction are easy and manageable. When they learn how simple it can be, something shifts within them. There’s an emotional response—“I didn’t know that. I have options. There are alternatives.” That awareness becomes the foundation for real change.
Jacobsen: How do you balance environmental goals with social impact?
Vicenty: That’s the thing—it’s intertwined. What we do is inherently both environmental and social. The full name is Inner City Green Team: Economic and Environmental Development. So, when we focus on environmental goals, the social impact is inseparable.
For example, one in seventeen New Yorkers does not have access to recycling the way others do. Our program provides an empowering and proactive opportunity for residents to participate in greening their communities. When you reduce, reuse, and recycle, etc., you begin to feel empowered. You want to do more—and then you want to share that energy with the next person.
After residents respond to the call, they start saying things like, “I can’t bring myself to throw my cans away anymore.”Even when they feel like taking the easy route and tossing recyclables in the trash, they stop themselves. That behaviour shift—that sense of responsibility and accountability—is fundamental. Indeed, the environmental and social benefits are deeply interconnected.
Jacobsen: What challenges occur with recycling infrastructure in public housing?
Vicenty: The buildings are very outdated. NYCHA housing developments predates any recycling mandate—recycling did not become law in New York City until 1989. These buildings were not designed with recycling infrastructure in mind.
That means there’s no built-in system for residents to recycle. Often, the only option is to carry materials to outdoor bins placed far away from the building entrances. Additionally, NYCHA has a large senior population—lifelong residents who have remained in place throughout their lives and mobility has become a serious issue for them.
If you are a senior citizen and the recycling bin is a block away, they are not encouraged to go outside in extreme heat or cold to make that trip. So, the model was envisioned to solve that problem by offering convenient, weekly door-to-door recycling collection in addition to the educational portion to aid the learning curve.
We began by collecting metals, glass, plastic, paper, and cardboard. We’ve since expanded to include household items, textile recycling and we will kick-off our food waste collection program in June 2025. These are just some of several ways we are not just responding to the challenge but actively meeting it.
Jacobsen: How does your incentive and education strategy help change recycling behaviours?
Vicenty: It’s CONVENIENT. Our unofficial tagline is, “You can recycle in your underwear.” There’s no need to go outside—hot or cold—we bring recycling access directly to your door.
During the week, residents separate their recyclables, rinse them, and follow all the steps we teach as part of our program. We provide every household with a recycling kit that includes instructions and reusable recycling bags. The education, paired with consistent, accessible service, makes all the difference, so there’s no reason why residents should not be able to participate.
When we collect textiles, we provide sealable jumbo poly bags and distribute them directly to residents. If anyone needs more bags, we provide a phone number they can call, and we’ll deliver new ones. Then, we pick up the filled bags right at their door.
Our approach is very engaging. The educational component is not just informative—it’s fun. We employ an outreach model that resembles a community event. When we host outreach sessions, it’s often carnival-style programming—we set up tables with educational games, and residents move from station to station, learning fun facts and engaging with environmental topics. The goal is always the same: to make recycling easy, convenient, and accessible.
Jacobsen: You report impacting more than 400,000 residents, potentially. How do you scale your program while keeping it rooted in community-centered values?
Vicenty: That huge figure reflects the total population of NYCHA residents citywide, and our goal is to propose to the NY City Council to integrate it into the city’s waste management budget. Unfortunately, while we’ve received promises of support, those promises have not yet materialized.
As for scaling while staying community-centred, it starts with engaging and training residents. We created a program called R.E.A.L.—Resident Environmental Action Leaders. Through REAL, we train residents to become peer educators and recruit others to join our efforts. We aim to empower residents to teach one another and lead by example.
We also provide economic opportunities. We prioritize hiring NYCHA residents or volunteers who demonstrate genuine interest and potential. They have the chance to become part of our workforce training program. So, the model is holistic—we combine environmental education, civic engagement, and economic empowerment.
We prioritize hiring NYCHA residents. Currently, we have five part-time NYCHA residents employed from the communities we serve. They live where they work. It reflects why “economic” is part of the name of ICGT, as it signifies the importance of providing much-needed resources in neglected communities and making human investments where they are needed the most.
Jacobsen: Last one. What are the measurable outcomes since the program began?
Vicenty: It’s been an uphill battle. When I first proposed this program to NYCHA, I encountered significant pushback. There was staunch resistance, and my proposal was eventually denied. The opportunity was fleeting, so my last resort was to file a lawsuit with an environmental law firm to force NYCHA into compliance with recycling laws. Filing the lawsuit was about doing the right thing, so I became increasingly persistent—filing for hearings, presenting evidence, and staying resilient in my truth.
Eight years later, I was given the opportunity to conduct a pilot program to prove my concept. Before that, my theory for not winning this battle sooner was that words like “environmental justice” weren’t buzzwords. Now, being permitted to operate on several NYCHA campuses has been an enormous victory.
In terms of waste impact, we’ve collected over 75 tons of recyclables at our current site, the Wagner Houses. Before that, during our pilot program in 2018 at the Brownsville Houses in Brooklyn, we collected 16 tons of waste over the course of one year. In the first four months, recycling rates increased from 0% to 8%.
Before our program, the narrative stated, “Residents don’t want to recycle,” which is definitely not the case. Residents want to recycle, and they will do so if provided with the necessary tools, access, and education to facilitate this.
We’ve continued expanding the program and are working to expand to three additional campuses in the South Bronx. However, as a nonprofit, we continually need to strategize to sustain ourselves, whether through developing new revenue streams, securing corporate sponsorships, grant writing, or forming conducive partnerships.
As a not-for-profit, the continuous need for funding led me to consider: How could we monetize the materials we collect to maintain operations? Three months later, the manifestation came to fruition in the form of being contacted by a renowned artist named Mika Rottenberg of Rottenberg Studios and Precious Plastics-NYC. These environmentally conscious artist use post-consumer plastics to create their high-end functional art, sculptures, and lighting installations.
Our collaboration has been a vision come to life. Since 2023, we’ve been collaborating, and our work has been exhibited around the world—in Mexico City, Vienna, Seoul, London, Spain, Austria, and, of course, New York.
That collaboration also led to the creation of three additional jobs. My team, which at one point was only working one day a week. We now have three members working P/T, five days a week. These outcomes demonstrate that our model is effective. People are actively participating by performing their civic duty, and we are satisfied with the results we are seeing.
Ultimately, our goal is to establish a Climate Action Center—a visible, physical space in the underserved neighborhood we serve where we can foster engagement and promote our messaging. Our “Green Ministry” will bring this education and access into communities that are often marginalized in receiving sustainability services.
Through several partnerships, I am building a coalition to secure funding and long-term support. The center, known as S.P.A.R.K., would serve as a hub where people can engage to learn, grow, and live green. It would also help sustain the nonprofit by anchoring ICGT’s citywide climate action initiatives.
Jacobsen: I do have one other question following from that.
Vicenty: Mhmm.
Jacobsen: What would you identify as two categories of expansion? First, lateral expansion—what you might call replicating or scaling the current deliverables across more developments. Second, vertical expansion—more advanced or evolved offerings, such as education or civic infrastructure, that could act as extensions of the current model. These wouldn’t replace the core but add to it—so people trying to reduce their carbon footprint or contribute more meaningfully to their community would have even more to engage with.
Vicenty: Yes—absolutely. Both lateral and vertical growth are on our minds. Laterally, we want to continue scaling to more NYCHA developments and communities. The model is simple and highly replicable. It simply requires proper funding, effective resident outreach, and a reliable service delivery system.
We’ve designed it as a closed-loop system. Whether it’s food waste, household items, textiles, plastics, or metals, it’s about keeping materials out of landfills and in use.
Vertically, we’re talking about building capacity for deeper learning. This means more in-depth education programs, hands-on workshops, and skill-building in areas such as upcycling, urban composting, and circular economy practices. We want residents not only to participate but to lead, to become trainers, to create businesses, or even to innovate new uses for waste materials.
The Climate Action Center is at the heart of that vision. It’s not just about waste diversion—it’s about building an ecosystem of sustainability led by and for communities that have historically been left out of that conversation.
Jacobsen: Thank you. That’s inspiring and incredibly well thought out. I was trying to give an image, like—say you have a coffee shop or maybe a burrito truck. At first, they only offer one kind of burrito. Then, they expand by getting a second truck or opening a restaurant, but they still only serve that one burrito. That’s lateral expansion—they’ve broadened their base but not their offerings.
Now, if, in that restaurant or second truck, they start offering tacos too, that’s vertical expansion—they’ve expanded what they provide, not just where. So, in terms of vertical growth or “adding tacos,” how do you envision expanding the kinds of provisions your program offers?
Vicenty: Right. That’s precisely what we’re already doing. Initially, we focused on education and collecting recyclable materials, including metal, glass, plastic, and paper. But I realized early on—that alone was not going to be enough. We needed to re-envision what our services could be and identify what was missing.
When I was out on NYCHA campuses, I would regularly see residents coming out with bags full of clothing and just tossing them in the trash—without a second thought. They had no place to take it. That’s why the textile collection campaign needed to be an additional service we offer.
Now, instead of throwing clothes away, residents can donate them to us. We collect the bags weekly. At this point, we do not yet have the internal capacity to sort and process the textiles ourselves, but we’ve partnered with another organization that does. They have the infrastructure to divert those materials from the landfill much more extensively.
We’ve been doing that successfully for over a year now. So yes, it’s very much like placing additional items on our menu —we’re expanding the scope of what we do. And now we’re taking the next step with food waste.
How can we make that work? That’s the next big challenge. We’re a small but persistent team—a little choo-choo train, as I like to say. Every new initiative takes up more space and more time than we initially expected, and we’re already operating in a pretty small space.
So, to take on food waste, we’ve partnered with a company called Food Cycle Science, which is based in Ottawa. I reached out to them and requested a donation of their in-home food recycling appliances.
The food recyclers from Food Cycle Science are great. You put your food scraps—mainly produce and other organic waste—into the unit. You need to avoid certain items, such as oils, cheeses, and most dairy products, but the machine breaks down everything else into what is called a pre-compost material or soil amendment. It somewhat resembles coffee grounds. The machine uses heat and dehydration to break down the material.
So here we are, once again, trying to stay aligned with our model: easy, convenient, accessible. And when it comes to food recycling, residents can have a decisive “yuck factor.” That’s a real barrier.
I approached Food Cycle Science, and they generously donated 250 machines. So now we’re rolling out a program to educate residents on food recycling. We host workshops, provide food caddies and compostable bags, and pick up their food waste just like we do with metal, glass, plastic, paper, and textiles etc.
Our food waste diversion program will process the food waste in the donated machines, which break down the food scraps to 90% of their original volume. This completes another step in our comprehensive waste diversion strategy.
That’s where we are now—this is real, and these are the things we are working on today.
Jacobsen: Brigitte, I want to say thank you very much for your time and your expertise—and it was lovely to meet you.
Vicenty: It was lovely to meet you, too, Scott. I look forward to seeing the outcome of all this.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/18
Christopher Louis is a Los Angeles–based international dating and relationship coach and founder of Dating Intelligence. As host of the Dating Intelligence Podcast, Louis draws on intuition and lived experience to guide clients toward authentic selves and meaningful romantic connections. He gives in in-depth conversation on gendered double standards in dating and nightlife. They explore how social freedoms differ between men and women, especially in public settings like bars or clubs, and how misreading cues often leads to miscommunication. Louis discusses how men project insecurities, the importance of mutual respect, and why open communication is key in relationships. He also highlights the often-overlooked reverse dynamic—when women cross boundaries with men—and calls for balanced emotional intelligence, trust, and consent. The discussion emphasizes the need for healthy relationship habits across diverse social and cultural contexts. Interview conducted June 9, 2025.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So today, we are here with Christopher Louis. I will insert his bio later to streamline the session—that is just a note to myself.
Double standards are an ongoing aspect of social dynamics that many people encounter. Ideally, we would live in a world where these are reduced in all contexts. However, in the dating world, double standards persist between men and women. What are some of the key examples you have observed, particularly in how men and women are treated when they go out socially? And how do men typically react in these situations—especially in terms of defensiveness?
Christopher Louis: Double standards come up in dating. One typical example appears when men and women in committed relationships go out separately with friends. Men often have more social license to be friendly or even mildly flirtatious in public settings—as long as it is seen as harmless and not crossing boundaries. These behaviours—like talking with women and making physical gestures like touching a shoulder—are often excused under the assumption that there is no romantic or sexual intent behind them.
When women go out, especially with single friends or in nightlife settings like bars or clubs, they are often subjected to greater scrutiny. Some male partners feel uncomfortable, not necessarily because of mistrust, but due to perceived vulnerability—such as unwanted male attention or pressure from strangers. This can lead to tension, especially when the male partner believes the social environment itself increases the likelihood of boundary-crossing with others.
Jacobsen: It is not just the emotional reaction of men that is important here, but also how they verbalize those concerns. How is that typically expressed?
Louis: In my experience with clients and conversations with friends, many men express it through concern or control. They might say something like, “If you go out with your single friends to a club, you’re just opening the door for other guys to hit on you.” There is an underlying assumption that physical appearance, attire, or setting could invite attention—and that this could lead to miscommunication, misread cues, or even predatory behaviour from others.
This does not mean that women are doing anything wrong. But some men project their insecurities or fears onto their partner’s actions. It is not uncommon for these conversations to revolve around perceived risk, even though the real issue may be a lack of trust, fear of infidelity, or difficulty managing jealousy. It becomes a broader conversation about autonomy, mutual respect, and communication in the relationship.
Like, if a girl is just talking to a guy and she’s laughing with him or whatever—keeping it platonic—the guy may get the wrong signals. He may go in for a kiss, he may go in for a touch, or he may make a move that is off-putting or even interpreted as a sexual advance toward someone else’s girlfriend.
Jacobsen: That leads to a practical follow-up question: How do women typically view those misinterpretations? There is that pattern. Specifically, the situation where men overperceive romantic or sexual intent, and women may underperceive how their actions could be misread. I’m referring to moments when men mistake friendliness for interest and try to make a move.
Louis: So, in that case, here’s the thing: most guys misread signals. Let’s just be honest—half the time, guys are wrong about what they think is being communicated. I know for a fact that if a woman is just being her fun, energetic self—talking to a guy, laughing, maybe touching his arm while being friendly and platonic—some guys are going to interpret that as an invitation.
They think, “Oh, she’s into me. She wants me to go for it.” That’s when you’ll see a guy go in for a kiss or get more physical, thinking it’s a green light when it was just a woman being social, kind, and open.
Now, if she’s in a relationship, and that moment happens, most of the time, she’ll stop it right away and say, “Whoa—hey. I wasn’t giving you that kind of signal.” And then the guy may flip it, saying, “You were flirting with me,” or “You wanted that.” But the reality is that she wasn’t. He just misread the friendliness. It happens way too often.
Jacobsen: So how do you coach men to understand and adjust for this—so it’s not just understood, but behaviour changes?
Louis: That’s a key point. What I tell men is this: no matter how warm or friendly a woman seems—whether she’s laughing with you, maintaining eye contact, or even touching your arm in conversation—it does not mean she’s giving consent to anything more.
Some women, like my girlfriend, are naturally social. She’ll talk to guys and be engaging because that’s who she is. It doesn’t mean she’s inviting more. So, I teach people to read the room—not just through body language but also through context, tone, and especially words. And always, always ask yourself: “Did she explicitly indicate interest beyond friendly conversation?” If the answer is no, then back off.
Teaching this is about emotional intelligence, reading signals with nuance, and—most of all—respect. Respect her boundaries even if you’re unsure because consent is never assumed.
She’ll be like, “Oh my God.” She’ll touch their arm or leg—whether they’re sitting or standing—in a platonic way. But again, I coach guys to understand, first and foremost, what kind of woman they’re speaking with and where she’s coming from.
If she’s saying, “Hey, my boyfriend’s over there, but I’m loving this conversation,” it’s about reading the room and asking the right questions. Let’s say the woman is single, and she’s being a bit more flirtatious—your goal then might be to gently escalate by asking flirtatious questions like, “Wow, I think you’re adorable,” or “I love your energy.” You’re trying to gauge whether her energy is genuine interest or simply a friendly gesture.
The hardest thing for a lot of guys when they go out is misreading those cues. You approach a girl with your usual flirty lines, have a ten or fifteen-minute conversation, and suddenly you’re thinking, “Yeah, I think she’s into me.” But she might just be being polite. That’s why I always emphasize the importance of asking deeper, clarifying questions.
You need to determine: is this something real? Is she genuinely interested? Or is she simply being kind? That discernment can save you a lot of confusion—and awkwardness. So, the answer to your question is to ask better questions before interpreting subtle cues as signs of sexual or romantic interest. Do not rely solely on body language because it is often misread.
Jacobsen: Are there situations where the reverse happens? Where a woman misunderstands a man’s signals and assumes more interest than there is? That might be a practical educational example to illustrate how misinterpretation can occur in both directions.
Louis: Yes—definitely. This is where it gets a little complex.
From both experience and in the present, I’ve found that many women feel they have more freedom to touch men casually than men would ever feel comfortable doing with women. I’ve had moments where I’ve felt put off or even uncomfortable when a woman approaches me and starts touching my chest or my face while telling me how handsome I am. And I think: Did I permit you to do that?
So, yes, there’s a clear double standard. Some women feel entitled to touch men without considering whether that contact is welcome. It can be unsettling—because, just like with women, men have personal boundaries too. But society often overlooks that.
Some women see a man they’re attracted to and treat him like a piece of meat. It can feel predatory—just in a different way. And that discomfort is something I help men navigate and discuss openly. Boundaries apply both ways. Respect and consent have to be mutual.
Because men are often socialized to accept or even welcome sexual attention from women, some women may assume their advances will always be well received. There’s this idea that if they touch a man or express sexual interest, he will automatically be into it—that he’ll want them, want more, and be flattered. But that is not always the case.
There have been many instances in my past—during my modelling days or even now—where a woman has approached me, come straight over, and said something like, “You’re hot,” and made very forward advances. And my reaction has been, “Excuse me.” First of all, I may not even be interested, and second, who gave you the right to touch me?
In those situations, I’ve had to be polite—putting on a smile, acting coy or nervous, saying, “Oh, thank you,” just to keep the peace, even though inside, I was feeling genuinely uncomfortable and anxious.
There have even been times when my girlfriend witnessed this. She noticed the expressions and behaviour some women used—expressions that mirrored what men often do in similar situations. And I found myself thinking, “Someone, please come rescue me.”
This dynamic happens in reverse. But socially, there’s this perception that men should enjoy it, that they should be grateful. Some women seem to think, “You’re a guy, you like it—just accept it.” But if the roles were reversed—if I, as a man, touched a woman without consent, people would immediately recognize how inappropriate and violating that is.
There’s a clear double standard here. Some women may feel more justified in crossing boundaries because they think, “This doesn’t happen often, and most guys want it anyway.” Culturally, that kind of behaviour is sometimes tolerated more by women than by men, even though it can be equally uncomfortable or inappropriate.
Jacobsen: What else should I ask today? Well, the U.S. is incredibly diverse, so yes, there are subcultural differences in how gender norms and personal boundaries play out—differences even between states like New York and Missouri.
Louis: If we zoom out to global cultural dynamics, it gets more complex. In some cultures—though not universally and certainly not without exceptions—gender roles are more rigid. There can be expectations that men have more freedom while women are more restricted. For instance, in particular conservative communities across different regions, it may be more socially acceptable for men to socialize freely. At the same time, women are expected to remain at home or behave more modestly.
However, it is essential to avoid painting entire cultures or ethnic groups with a single brush. Gender dynamics are shaped by a complex interplay of tradition, religion, law, personal values, and evolving social norms, and they vary significantly within any given country or community.
I’m like, seriously? So you can basically go out and do whatever you want—you can party, use drugs, have people over, hang out with whoever—but if your girlfriend or wife wants to go out with her friends, suddenly it’s a problem?
Then it’s, “Where are you going? Who are you with? Make sure it’s someone we know. Don’t hang out with those single girls because you’re not single. You’re married, so you should only be with your married friends.” Like, what?
Jacobsen: That’s a common double standard.
Louis: Right? That’s real. It’s like, how come you get to go out and have fun, but your wife has to stay home? Why is she expected to sit around and do nothing while you get to live your life? And to bring it to a more everyday level—I always find this part funny—we were talking about the differences between places like Missouri and elsewhere.
Even within Los Angeles, there are clear cultural contrasts. For example, Scott, let’s say you and I go out with some couples. Right? So it’s a group of five or six couples. We all head out for dinner or drinks. What drives me bonkers—especially when comparing the West Side of L.A. to a more conservative area like, say, Pasadena—is this: when we all go out, why is it that in the more conservative circles, the men and women split off? The men hang with the men, and the women hang with the women. It’s like some kind of social rule.
But in more liberal settings, people mingle. At dinner, everyone mixes. Husbands and wives don’t necessarily sit next to each other, and we all engage together. It’s social, fluid, fun. You’re not confined to one group.
But in those more traditional groups, it’s like, “Women over here, men over there.” My girlfriend and I always look at each other like, “Why do we have to do this?” She’s said to me, “Honestly, I’d rather talk to some of the guys—they’re more interesting!” But it’s treated like that would be inappropriate, like she’s breaking some unspoken rule.
And that’s the kind of rigid thinking that still exists in specific communities—where social roles are so defined that stepping outside of them is seen as strange or even disrespectful.
This happens, again, in specific cultural contexts—like in some parts of the Persian community or in other traditional communities—where if your wife or girlfriend is talking to a group of men, it’s considered inappropriate. It’sviewed as a bad form. There is an expectation that she should only socialize with women, not mix with men. And that mindset does not just exist in cultural contexts; it also shows up in very conservative social environments in general.
Jacobsen: What about pub or bar culture compared to nightclub culture?
Louis: That’s a good distinction. Yes, nightclub culture versus more rural or conservative bar culture—those can be worlds apart. There are some unspoken social “rules,” depending on where you are.
For example, in a more conservative or rural setting, when you go out with your partner, there may be this unspoken rule that you stay together the whole time, stick to your gender group, or act in specific predefined ways. Flirting—even if playful—is seen as threatening.
But in nightclub culture, especially in more liberal areas, it’s different. Say I’m out with my girlfriend—we’re secure, we trust each other. When we go to a club, she might go off to one part of the room, I might go to another, and we’ll meet in the middle. She can talk to whomever she wants. I can talk to whoever I want. It’s fun, flirtatious even, but we both know where we stand. We’re together.
And that brings us back to what this comes down to: trust. If you trust your partner, you should not need to control them. You should not be setting rigid rules or putting them in a box, saying, “You can’t do x, y, or z,” while also giving yourself complete freedom to do those exact things just because you’re a guy.
Many women today push back against this double standard. They’re saying, “You can’t tell me what to do if you’re doing it yourself.” And honestly, they’re right. There’s a disconnect in some relationships because of that inequality.
Here’s a real example from just yesterday that came up in a relationship counselling session I had. You can use this generically if you’d like.
So, this couple I’m seeing right now—she went to a party with some of her girlfriends. He wasn’t there initially, but he knew she was going. When I talked to him before the party, he said something like, “I hope that when I get there, she’s not standing around with her friends talking to other guys because that’s going to piss me off.”
And I told him, “Look, if she’s already at the party before you get there, you know she’s going to be mingling. You’re showing up late—what do you expect?” And I added, “I hope that when you walk in and she sees you, she’s just happy to see you. That should be your focus.” Because, again, it’s about trust. If you walk in expecting to control her environment, it’s not trust—it’s possession. And that’s where so many of these problems begin.
So now I’m in a place where I want my partner by my side. I want to be with him exclusively in those moments. But here’s the thing—I’ve told him this. I said, “These are the kinds of conversations you need to have before you walk into any social situation—whether it’s a club, a party, or anything where you’re going to interact with others. You both need to communicate how the night is going to go.”
Here’s an example from my relationship. When my girlfriend and I are going out—whether it’s to a friend’s party, a social gathering, or a club—I might say, “You know what, Chris? Tonight, I just want to hang out with you. Is that okay?” And she’ll say, “Sure, honey, that sounds great.” Or I might ask, “How are we feeling tonight?”
She could say, “I just want to be free, hang out with friends, talk to other people. You can hang with your people, I’ll hang with mine, and we’ll meet up throughout the night.” And I’ll say, “Cool—let’s just check in throughout the night.”
We call it “checking in.” That way, there’s no miscommunication or assumptions. You both know what kind of energy the other person is bringing and what they need. Because there’s nothing worse than walking into a party and your significant other suddenly disappears—off to hang out with their friends—especially if it’s a party where they know everyone and you barely know anyone.
In that case, I’ll say, “Hey, honey, I’m good with you going and having fun; just let me know.” Or I’ll say, “I’d rather we stick together tonight.”
What you want to avoid is walking into a situation without communicating—and then suddenly your partner’s gone, and you’re thinking, “Holy crap, I don’t know anyone here.” And yeah, maybe I’m an extrovert, so usually, I can handle it. But sometimes, I’m just not in the mood to be social—to turn on the charm and smile and go, “Hey, how are you?”—when I’d rather just be with her.
There have been moments where I felt jealous, even though there was no real reason. And later, I realized it wasn’t about what she was doing—it was that I wasn’t in the right headspace, and I hadn’t told her how I was feeling.
She said to me, “If you had just told me you wanted me close to you tonight, I would’ve stayed by your side.”
But I didn’t. She assumed I was in my usual mood—happy, social, outgoing. And I realized she was right. I had no reason to be upset because I didn’t communicate what I needed. And that was on me. That level of honest emotional communication is rare. People do not always realize how important it is.
Sometimes, when there’s miscommunication, I always suggest checking in beforehand—just letting each other know what the expectations are before walking into any social situation. If we know we’re going to a club together, for example, we should talk about the parameters. What’s the vibe tonight? What are our boundaries? Are we going to be together the whole time? Is it mostly your friends or mine?
It’s helpful to say things like, “I don’t want you leaving me behind,” or, “It’s fine if you go off—I’ll hang out with a few people I know.” The key is alignment.
I believe that most people should check in before arriving at their destination rather than assuming everything will work out once they’re there. Because anything can happen—and it’s better to be on the same page.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Chris, thank you very much for your time today. Appreciate it.
Louis: Thank you, Scott. Appreciate you, have a fantastic day.
Jacobsen: You too. Thanks—take care.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/18
Dr. Larry Davidson, MD, FAANS, a board-certified neurosurgeon and spine expert with 30+ years of experience, is available to speak on both sides of the weight spectrum and its impact on spine health. On one hand, even modest weight gain, especially in men, can accelerate spinal disc degeneration and increase the risk of chronic back pain and injury. On the other hand, rapid weight loss can also lead to muscular imbalances and posture issues that put strain on the spine.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: From a clinical perspective, how does weight gain impact the spine?
Dr. Larry Davidson: Weight gain adds pressure to the spine through a process called axial loading, which can accelerate the breakdown of intervertebral discs and contribute to chronic back pain. Beyond discomfort, excess weight also creates challenges for patients who may need spine surgery. Obesity increases the risk of complications such as infection, especially after complex posterior lumbar procedures, and is often linked with other comorbidities like diabetes, hypertension and heart disease. While not everyone with excess weight will experience spinal issues, it’s fair to say it places additional stress on the spine and often contributes to chronic discomfort, instability or pain. It’s not always the sole cause, but it rarely helps.
Jacobsen: Is there a difference between men and women on this?
Davidson: Men and women tend to gain weight in different areas, with men more likely to carry excess weight around the abdomen and women around the hips and buttocks. While this distribution varies, both types add axial pressure that can impact the spine. There may be differences in how that weight affects posture and biomechanics, but from a spinal load standpoint, extra weight is still extra weight. Regardless of where it’s carried, it adds stress to the musculoskeletal system.
Jacobsen: Why is the distribution of weight more important than the overall number on the scale?
Davidson: The number on the scale doesn’t tell the whole story. Two people can weigh the same but have very different levels of muscle and fat, and that distinction matters. Muscle is denser and offers more support to the spine, particularly when focused in the core and back. A person with a higher muscle-to-fat ratio will have better posture, improved spinal stability, and a lower risk of spine-related symptoms than someone carrying excess body fat.
Jacobsen: What early spine-related symptoms are patients showing who have used Ozempic or other weight loss drugs?
Davidson: While I’m not a specialist in Ozempic or other similar medications, I haven’t seen clear spinal symptoms tied directly to their use. Anecdotally, I have observed that patients who lose weight rapidly — whether through medication or lifestyle changes — often report some relief from back pain if that pain was related to excess weight. I’m not aware of spine-specific side effects caused by these drugs, but I do think there’s potential benefit if the weight loss leads to less pressure on the spine.
Jacobsen: How does rapid weight loss create muscular imbalances?
Davidson: Rapid weight loss, especially when not paired with a structured strength-building routine, can lead to muscle weakness and imbalance. Many people unintentionally neglect their core and back muscles, which are critical for posture and spinal stability. As weight comes off, especially quickly, the body may lack the muscular support it needs to adapt. That’s why guided strength training and physical therapy are essential during or after significant weight changes.
Jacobsen: What postural issues or instability follow Ozempic, or other weight loss drug use?
Davidson: People who carry significant abdominal weight often develop a forward-flexed posture due to the pull of that excess mass. As they lose weight, they may feel an immediate improvement in their ability to stand upright, even if their core muscles are still weak.
However, without retraining those muscles through targeted strengthening, instability or poor posture may persist. Weight loss helps, but it needs to be paired with rehabilitation to restore alignment and balance.
Jacobsen: Why might many chronic back pain sufferers benefit more from therapy, nutrition and movement-based strategies?
Davidson: The majority of back pain cases are non-surgical and often stem from poor posture, deconditioned muscles, or excess body weight. While I perform spine surgery for patients who truly need it, most people with persistent back pain benefit more from conservative care. Strengthening the core, improving flexibility, and addressing nutrition can lead to real and lasting relief. A well-rounded, supervised plan is often the key to managing chronic symptoms without surgery.
Jacobsen: What preventative strategies protect spine health?
Davidson: Preventing back pain starts with maintaining a healthy weight and prioritizing core and back strength. Regular exercise, good posture habits, and professional guidance from a physical therapist or trainer can go a long way. Simple movements and consistent routines often make the biggest difference. These strategies aren’t flashy, but they are powerful in protecting the spine over time.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Larry.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/17
Dr. Joshua Stein, MD, is a board-certified Child and Adolescent Psychiatrist. He is the clinical director and an attending clinician at PrairieCare’s youth Partial Hospital Program (PHP), operating a clinic out of their Brooklyn Park, Minnesota Medical Office Building. A graduate of Cornell University and the University of Minnesota, where he completed his psychiatry residency and fellowship, Dr. Stein is dedicated to improving the mental health of children, teens, and families. His clinical focus includes autism, anxiety, OCD, and depression, with an emphasis on long-term functional outcomes. As president of the Minnesota Society for Child Adolescent Psychiatry, he advocates for greater access to care. He has been recognized as a Top Doctor by Minneapolis St. Paul Magazine and Minnesota Monthly.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What does clinical work reveal as the fundamental psychological needs of children today?
Dr. Joshua Stein: Children need the opportunity to face increasingly difficult obstacles to build industry, purpose, talent and initiative. In my practice, I compare this to learning how to read. To explain: initially we need to learn the alphabet, then sound out short words, put them in sentences, and finally read paragraphs and chapters. If we do not learn the basics of reading, imagine how complex a high school English class would be.
From a psychological perspective, children need to be able to face age-appropriate challenges and learn how to manage them. That way, by the time they are young adults, they are able to juggle the complexities of high school life.
During the pandemic, out of the natural instinct to protect, many kids were not given the opportunity to face developmentally appropriate challenges. For example, they did not learn to detach in preschool or stand up to the third grade bully. They did not have to sit uncomfortably behind someone they were attracted to in seventh grade, experience what it’s like to not get the role they wanted in drama class, or the ability to increase practice intensity in sports. The opportunity cost of the COVID-era and its lasting ripples has led to social stagnation and missed psychological developmental milestones. We are seeing college students who operate as early high schoolers, high schoolers who act like they are in junior high, and so on.
Jacobsen: How does this change in the digital world?
Stein: There will always be a generational fear of change and the unknown. In the 60s, it was Elvis’s hips, and in the 80s, it was the war on drugs. Now, as technology moves faster than ever, we are seeing growing dependence on social media and screens in new and challenging ways, and this is occurring at a developmentally critical time for kids who need to face and overcome challenges in their real, offscreen lives. So many kids doomscroll instead of tolerating hard feelings. When things get difficult, they turn to easy distractions online. They also face the challenges of online personas and cyber bullying. Increasing numbers of kids are giving up parts of their own life to watch 6-second clips of other people’s idealized lives. I avoid fearmongering in my work, but I am concerned with increasing patterns of aimlessness and the technology dependence that go hand-in-hand. This generation was undermined by the pandemic and that is further exploited by the digital era. It is critical that they have offline lives and learn how to do hard or challenging things.
Jacobsen: How can parents and caregivers identify early signs of a struggle with mental health?
Stein: Children often display emerging mental health concerns in their patterns and body complaints. We commonly see changes to sleep routine, impairment in concentration, school refusal, and irritability as initial signs and symptoms of mental health concerns. They may describe upset stomach indigestion or start to use the bathroom excessively. Kids hold their anxiety in their bodies and often do not yet have the language to define what is happening to them. Additionally, patterns of depression are often atypical in children. Unlike adults who are often depressed across all areas of their life, children may still enjoy their favorite things, even if they feel depressed. They may laugh with their friends, succeed in their sport, and be thrilled to go to a favorite activity. Then, in quiet moments, they may be sullen, more emotional, or easily distressed. These inconsistencies are often signs of emerging childhood depression.
Jacobsen: What practices are effective in fostering resilience and mental health in children?
Stein: My primary recommendation is that parents monitor their own mental health needs to set a good example for their child. Parents should be reflective of their own emotions and be intentional about naming challenges or difficulties in their own feelings regularly. This provides insight and a scaffold for children to learn. Additionally, pushing kids to try things outside their comfort zone in small sips and gulps is warranted. This allows them to build industry and self-worth, to tackle hard things so they know what they can and cannot do, and learn how to ask for help when needed. In the digital age, as parents, we are strikingly aware of all that can go wrong. Our own anxieties can lead to being overprotective and helicoptering. We need to allow our kids to grow so that they feel confident in fighting their own battles. Try asking your child, “How would you like to handle this?” and tackle things together.
Jacobsen: How does screen time impact the mental health of young people?
Stein: This is a notable and incredibly complex subject. In some ways, social media and screens are incredibly helpful. They allow connection and exploration of shared interests that used to be done in isolation. On the other hand, we know that excessive social media time—somewhere between 3-5 hours a day—worsens mental health outcomes, including increased suicidal thoughts, self-harm, and negative self-image. Studies have shown that placing limits on social media time greatly improves general wellbeing. Interestingly, if you ask teenagers, they are strikingly aware of the harms of social media. They also struggle to set their own limits on their screen time. It is important to support them by modeling healthy screen time behavior and setting the limits that our children crave so that they can be successful and experience all of the other joys in life.
Jacobsen: How can schools and community programs support children’s mental well-being?
Stein: Fortunately, we are seeing a lot of advancement in schools’ awareness and engagement regarding mental health. I think creating phone-free zones would be strikingly helpful. Studies show that excess screen use has led to attention issues in older teenagers and distract kids from the school day. By creating a sanctuary in the school where phones are only available during passing time, or are not available until the end of the day, there is a true opportunity to improve wellbeing.
Jacobsen: How can caregivers distinguish between regular developmental behaviors and symptoms of serious mental health conditions?
Stein: My advice is to trust your gut. If something seems off with your child, their irritability is severe, or sleep-wake schedule is abnormal, check in. Caregivers often delay care because they feel their only option is to see a psychiatrist or mental health professional. My colleagues in pediatrics and family practice are excellent in starting care, and a large part of their practice relates to mental wellbeing. They can help families understand the difference between normative development and concerning features of anxiety, depression or mood disorders. So check in with your family doctor if you are concerned.
Jacobsen: In leading youth services at PrairieCare, what innovations excite you?
Stein: There are a couple advancements that profoundly excite me. The first is a silver lining from the pandemic. Virtual health care has allowed the expansion of mental health resources into all corners of our country. It has stopped the geographic disparity that too often led to underprivileged children not being able to get care. At PrairieCare, due to the pandemic, we built out extensive online resources that allow kids to participate in groups or see their physician from their home setting. This is an excellent resource, and many teenagers find it more comfortable and collaborative in their own care.
Additionally, in the near future, artificial intelligence is going to let your doctor be more present and less focused on charting and note writing. Resources like ambient AI will be able to monitor the conversation, take notes, prepare prescriptions, etc. As we implement this in our practice at PrairieCare, I am excited for the burden of charting to decrease so the joy of healing and interacting with my patients can increase.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Joshua.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/16
Irina Tsukerman is a human rights and national security attorney based in New York and Connecticut. She earned her Bachelor of Arts in National and Intercultural Studies and Middle East Studies from Fordham University in 2006, followed by a Juris Doctor from Fordham University School of Law in 2009. She operates a boutique national security law practice. She serves as President of Scarab Rising, Inc., a media and security strategic advisory firm. Additionally, she is the Editor-in-Chief of The Washington Outsider, which focuses on foreign policy, geopolitics, security, and human rights. She is actively involved in several professional organizations, including the American Bar Association’s Energy, Environment, and Science and Technology Sections, where she holds the position of Program Vice Chair in the Oil and Gas Committee. She is also a member of the New York City Bar Association. She serves on the Middle East and North Africa Affairs Committee and affiliates with the Foreign and Comparative Law Committee. Tsukerman explores Ukraine’s devastating drone strikes on Russian bomber fleets and the geopolitical reverberations. The conversation examines the erosion of U.S. intelligence credibility, NATO’s dependency on American leadership, and China’s weaponization of rare earth exports. Tsukerman critiques Western complacency, the rise of asymmetric threats, and the failure to counter ideological warfare effectively. The Taliban’s normalization and its accusations against Israel are addressed, as is Trump’s geopolitical posturing. The interview emphasizes the urgent need for strategic foresight, ideological clarity, and independent European defence development amid escalating global instability. Interview conducted June 6, 2025.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Sources cited today include the United Nations, Amnesty International, Human Rights Watch, AP News, and Reuters.
Russia has launched one of its most extensive aerial assaults on Ukraine in recent months, reportedly deploying approximately 407 Shahed-type drones and 44 missiles across six regions. The Ukrainian Air Force stated that a significant number of these were intercepted, but some managed to hit civilian and infrastructure targets. In Kyiv, three emergency service personnel were killed while responding to damage caused by the strikes. In response to the escalating violence, President Volodymyr Zelensky proposed a 30-day ceasefire ahead of the NATO summit. As of now, Russia has not accepted or formally responded to the proposal.
This Russian escalation appears to follow Ukraine’s recent successful strikes on a Russian airbase in southern Russia, which reportedly destroyed or severely damaged several Tu-22M3 bombers. According to satellite imagery and Western intelligence assessments, the Ukrainian strike—allegedly using drones—inflicted considerable losses on Russia’s long-range bomber fleet. These aircraft have been used extensively to launch cruise missiles at Ukrainian civilian and energy infrastructure.
Irina Tsukerman: The long-term implications of the attack are significant. Due to international sanctions and the loss of access to key components, Russia will face serious challenges in replacing these strategic bombers. This represents not just a tactical victory for Ukraine but a major strategic setback for Russia, particularly in its capacity to project air power over Ukrainian territory.
The most notable aspect of Ukraine’s operation was its apparent success in avoiding detection. Reports suggest that the operation may have been planned and coordinated near the FSB’s headquarters in Moscow. However, no Ukrainian operatives were apprehended, and the individuals involved in planning or executing the mission reportedly left the country undetected. This raises serious questions about the efficacy of Russian counterintelligence. The failure was so total that it may take years for Russia’s security apparatus to recover credibility.
Strikingly, there has been minimal discussion in Russian state media about the intelligence failure. This omission likely reflects the Kremlin’s effort to control the narrative and avoid internal scrutiny over the breach.
Russia’s subsequent large-scale attacks on Ukrainian civilian targets may be interpreted as an attempt to shift focus away from this military and intelligence failure. While such attacks are framed as acts of retaliation, they serve no clear strategic purpose and are widely seen as acts of desperation and intimidation.
Amid these events, former U.S. President Donald Trump made a controversial statement, suggesting that Russia had been provoked into action by attacks on its air assets. He implied that the Ukrainian strike on grounded aircraft constituted terrorism. However, under international law, a stationary military plane at an airbase is considered a legitimate military target during an armed conflict. Attempts to redefine these terms are seen mainly as political rhetoric that does not align with the laws of armed conflict.
Another critical dimension to this story is the revelation that U.S. intelligence was unaware of Ukraine’s plans to conduct such a long-range drone operation. The mission reportedly remained undisclosed to Western allies for over a year. President Trump was not briefed. This raises broader questions about the current dynamics of trust and coordination between Ukraine and its Western partners.
Tsukerman: First, there is an apparent lack of trust between Ukraine and not only the current U.S. administration but also the previous one. This includes President Biden and key members of his administration. Second, the United States lacks sufficient on-the-ground intelligence assets to gather crucial information about operations of this magnitude. That is deeply concerning, regardless of the state of diplomatic trust. The U.S. should possess at least basic operational awareness—especially regarding significant actions undertaken by either allied or adversarial nations. Given that the U.S. is deeply involved in this conflict through financial aid, military assistance, and geopolitical positioning, the absence of such capabilities raises serious questions about national security preparedness.
If the U.S. intelligence community was unaware of this operation, what does that say about our ability to detect a significant act of sabotage—whether from Russia or another adversary? The war in Ukraine is arguably one of the most consequential global conflicts today and certainly one of the United States’ top geopolitical priorities. However, the fact remains: the U.S. had no apparent foreknowledge of a major Ukrainian operation.
It is hard to ignore the broader pattern of failure here. Of course, Trump’s publicly undermining U.S. intelligence agencies did not help the situation. However, these gaps predate his administration and persist into the current one. It suggests a systemic problem within U.S. intelligence in that region. Whether people support or criticize the intelligence community, the reality is that if you are entirely unaware of what is happening in a critical theatre of conflict, you become a target. You are not in control—you are being played. That is one of the underlying dimensions missing from broader discussions surrounding this major Ukrainian success.
For Ukraine, this is undeniably a moment of triumph. For anyone who opposes Russian imperialism, this is also something to celebrate. However, it raises uncomfortable questions: Where exactly does the West stand in all of this? Ukraine—a heavily embattled state under constant threat—has pulled off an incredibly sophisticated operation. Meanwhile, much of the West appears disjointed, uncoordinated, and lacking any coherent strategy regarding collective defence or the evolving security landscape.
Why have the most advanced and ostensibly stable countries grown so complacent? Is it an erosion of adaptive capacity? Have Western democracies, in their relative peace and prosperity, lost the moral and strategic resolve to face difficult situations with the determination that Ukraine has demonstrated?
Following the Ukrainian operation, the Pentagon reportedly instructed staff to begin exploring and developing weapons systems and operational strategies modelled on Ukraine’s battlefield innovations. However, is adopting new drone technologies and tactics enough? Morale and mindset matter just as much. Currently, Ukraine’s resilience and sense of purpose far exceed what we are seeing from the broader Western alliance. That is the central lesson that continues to go largely unacknowledged.
Jacobsen: Shifting slightly—China has been in the news recently for its strategic use of rare earth mineral exports. The implementation of a new export licensing system designed to give China more insight and control over global supply chains. This move is likely to impact how multinational companies conduct trade and manage their supply chains. It is another example of how economic instruments—particularly critical resources like rare earths—are being weaponized to gain strategic advantage, something the West also seems ill-prepared to counter effectively.
China’s recent move to reassert its so-called “national security interests” around rare earth mineral exports is gaining international attention. These minerals are critical for manufacturing advanced technologies, such as semiconductor chips. This decision is a response to U.S. restrictions on Chinese access to advanced chips and related technologies. What are your thoughts on China’s new export licensing system and the Chinese Communist Party’s intensified strategic use of rare earth elements?
Tsukerman: It is entirely expected that China would use whatever leverage it has to try to prevent the United States from gaining or maintaining a competitive edge—especially in strategic sectors. The U.S. has restricted China’s access to advanced semiconductors and imposed export controls under both the Trump and Biden administrations. Trump introduced even more restrictive measures beyond the CHIPS and Science Act and associated export bans.
So naturally, China is responding with its measures. What is disturbing is not that China acted but that the U.S. seemed unprepared for it. This was a predictable countermove. However, Washington did not appear to have secured alternative supplies or developed strategic reserves of rare earths before escalating export controls. The U.S. reaction has been reactive rather than proactive. It lacks anticipatory planning.
Jacobsen: So we are not leading—we are merely keeping pace or even falling behind?
Tsukerman: Precisely. This move by China affects not only the United States but also other countries. It also impacts potential alternative suppliers, such as India. While India possesses rare earth deposits, many of these have only been recently discovered and are not yet fully developed. It will take time—perhaps years—for India or others to reach production capacities that could challenge China’s dominance.
What we are seeing is the U.S. behaving in a very ossified manner on the global stage—slow to adapt, overly bureaucratic, and strategically sluggish. Such rigidity is particularly dangerous in a competitive and rapidly evolving geopolitical environment.
Given the long history of military and strategic thinking in the United States, it is surprising that such obvious countermeasures from China were not anticipated. You do not need to be a master strategist to foresee that if the U.S. makes Move A, China will likely respond with Move B. It is basic strategic logic. The fact that we were blindsided suggests systemic weaknesses.
That said, China’s predictability is not necessarily a testament to its sophistication. It simply means that China is responding within a limited range of available options—and doing so effectively because the U.S. has not closed off those vulnerabilities.
Jacobsen: So both nations are stuck in a kind of zero-sum logic based on finite resources?
Tsukerman: That is precisely it. The genuine concern is that both countries are still grounding their national security strategies in resource accumulation—rare earths, energy, and other tangible materials—rather than focusing on intellectual capital and innovation. Neither is truly advancing the conversation toward post-resource paradigms.
Despite its heavy investment in AI and technology education, China has yet to demonstrate creative or lateral approaches to circumvent its dependence on physical resources. Its strategies are still very linear and of an industrial age in nature. That makes them vulnerable to disruption by any actor that can think a step ahead.
Jacobsen: So the arms race is less about innovation and more about material accumulation at this stage?
Tsukerman: Correct. Moreover, that is not sustainable. These supply chains are fragile by nature—limited, contested, and vulnerable. If the U.S. wants to remain competitive, it should not focus solely on acquiring the most rare earths or metals. Instead, it should invest in alternatives that allow us to transcend our dependence on finite resources.
Innovation—true innovation—is about solving constraints. That means finding synthetic substitutes, developing circular economies, and maximizing human ingenuity. Otherwise, we are simply repeating the cycle that made the global economy so dependent on oil and gas. Moreover, rare earths could reach that point of critical instability even faster.
Jacobsen: That brings us to another area of intensifying conflict. On June 4, Israeli airstrikes on June 4 targeted areas in Beirut’s southern suburbs, specifically the Tahia region, reportedly in response to intelligence indicating underground drone production sites linked to Hezbollah. These strikes triggered widespread panic and mass evacuations.
One regional official condemned the attacks, claiming they violated the U.S.-brokered ceasefire agreement from November 2024. In the aftermath, scenes of devastation emerged. According to accounts like that of Adel Hadda, Palestinians were seen praying amid the rubble, as most mosques in the area had been destroyed.
The death toll is staggering: approximately 2,000 Palestinians have been killed, with roughly 90% of the population displaced. In response, the United Nations Security Council is reportedly drafting a resolution calling for an immediate and unconditional ceasefire in Gaza. The resolution would also demand the release of all hostages and the removal of barriers to humanitarian aid. As per Security Council procedures, it will require at least nine affirmative votes and no vetoes from any of the five permanent members to pass.
Thoughts?
Tsukerman: The United Nations has not been an especially constructive player in this theatre of war. It has not effectively pressured Hamas—or, more importantly, the state actors enabling Hamas’s continued operation. The fundamental problem is that Hamas has no incentive to disarm. Doing so would all but guarantee its collapse, and it is well aware of that.
In the meantime, Israel is reportedly exploring unconventional alternatives, such as arming local secular gangs or factions opposed to Hamas. I am skeptical of this approach. In my view, the core issue is not Hamas per se but the international network of support that sustains it. This includes state actors like Iran, Qatar, and Turkey, with supplementary backing from Russia and China.
Replacing Hamas with another group—especially one potentially as violent or ideologically unmoored—does not address the structural issue. Those same enabling countries could reroute their support to the next proxy. Whether the justification is religious or nationalist, the anti-Israel sentiment fueling the conflict will remain unchanged.
Jacobsen: So the framing of the conflict as a bilateral war—Israel versus Hamas or Israel versus Gaza—is fundamentally flawed?
Tsukerman: Precisely. There must be a broader strategic aim. First, the international community must hold those directly fueling the conflict accountable rather than reducing it to a localized fight. Second, any viable resolution must involve more than military operations. Without a robust political and humanitarian strategy, this war risks becoming another “forever war.”
Fighting a non-state actor like Hamas—a terrorist group with no real accountability to a civilian population—is profoundly asymmetrical. Israel, as a sovereign state, must answer to its citizens and international norms. Hamas, however, faces no such constraints. This imbalance ensures that civilians will continue to die in large numbers while Israeli soldiers are also lost in protracted, inconclusive battles.
Jacobsen: How do the religious dimensions factor into this dynamic?
Tsukerman: That is a crucial but under-discussed aspect. The destruction of mosques, while not a strategic aim for Israel, has become central to Hamas’s propaganda. Hamas deliberately embeds itself in civilian and religious infrastructure to provoke outrage and mobilize regional support. This tactic is a component of its broader information warfare strategy.
Even if Israel avoids deliberately targeting religious sites, the optics remain damaging. Hamas has successfully weaponized these visuals to galvanize support for what it brands as “resistance.” This is even though it bears primary responsibility for the destruction by militarizing those sacred sites.
Jacobsen: So even with military superiority, Israel could still lose in terms of narrative and perception?
Tsukerman: Exactly. Tactical victories are not the same as strategic success. Israel may be inflicting heavy damage on Hamas’s infrastructure and personnel, but it has not neutralized the ideological and emotional appeal Hamas cultivates. That appeal—rooted in religious symbolism, perceived victimhood, and anti-Israel sentiment—has grown more entrenched. Without countering that, Israel risks losing the broader conflict despite battlefield gains.
In most cases, the destruction of mosques is either incidental to airstrikes in densely populated areas or based on actionable intelligence indicating the presence of weapons or militants within those sites. Hamas has a long history of embedding fighters and munitions in civilian and religious infrastructure. This is not new.
Both Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad (PIJ) have weaponized religious sites to incite broader regional conflict, including within Israel itself. For example, in the years leading up to the October 7 attacks, we saw repeated instances of stone-throwing, weapons smuggling, and other provocations near the Al-Aqsa Mosque in Jerusalem—often timed around Ramadan. These actions were designed to escalate tensions and manipulate the religious significance of these locations.
By deliberately creating intolerable security conditions for Muslim worshippers, Hamas forces Israel into a no-win scenario: either Act to protect the public and face international backlash or stand down and risk civilian lives. The United Nations, knowingly or not, has been complicit in amplifying this strategy.
There are several reasons for this complicity: institutional corruption, the geopolitical makeup of the UN Security Council, and intense lobbying. Russia and China, both permanent members of the Security Council, are broadly aligned with Iran on strategic matters. They increasingly view the Israel–Hamas conflict as a front in a larger geopolitical struggle against the West. Because Israel is a close U.S. ally and the Middle East is now central to the strategic calculus of both Moscow and Beijing, these dynamics play directly into the broader global contest.
Jacobsen: And the U.S. appears to be playing a less visible, perhaps less effective, role in the Middle East.
Tsukerman: Yes. That shift is fundamental and concerning. Part of the issue lies with Israel’s diplomatic missteps—its inability to forge stronger partnerships with European countries, for instance. While it may be difficult, building that level of support is not impossible. However, the core point is this: the conflict is not about targeting religious sites or undermining Islamic holidays. It is about asymmetric warfare and the weaponization of sacred symbols to control perception.
Jacobsen: Let us move briefly to another topic. Former President Trump is reportedly reintroducing his travel ban—this time affecting around a dozen countries. From what I understand, the new version may be broader than the original 2017 iteration. Is this the same policy under a different name, or is it substantively different?
Tsukerman: The 2017 travel restrictions were not, strictly speaking, a “Muslim ban,” despite how Trump’s political messaging framed it. Countries like Venezuela and North Korea—neither Muslim-majority—were included. However, Trump deliberately emphasized the “Muslim ban” framing to appeal to specific segments of his base, which undermined his strategy and inflamed unnecessary tensions with Muslim communities worldwide.
It is also important to note that not all Muslim-majority countries were included in the original ban—and that is still the case. The new proposed travel restrictions target a combination of nations. Many are in Africa and the Middle East, but others are located in Latin America and the Caribbean. The current iteration appears to be framed less around religion and more around national security and immigration enforcement.
Jacobsen: What are the rationales driving this renewed ban?
Tsukerman: It is a mixture of factors. In some cases, the targeted countries are conflict zones that pose legitimate security concerns—such as Iran. In others, it is driven by domestic political considerations tied to immigration. For example, Venezuela and Haiti are both experiencing intense social and political turmoil. The U.S. has seen large waves of migrants from both countries—some fleeing political oppression, others escaping criminal violence.
Take Haiti, for example. The country is not inherently more dangerous than others. However, the volume of migration has become a political issue in the U.S. During the campaign, figures like Jake Evans made inflammatory and false claims—such as suggesting Haitian migrants “eat cats and dogs in the wild”—which reflects the level of xenophobia and misinformation at play. However, the core motivation behind the expanded ban appears to be a combination of anti-immigration sentiment and geopolitical anxiety.
A significant factor in all of this is that Trump has continued to demonstrate open sympathy toward Vladimir Putin. He appears willing to say or do almost anything to retain Putin’s favour—even after repeated instances of betrayal, disappointment, and public backlash. This was evident in the most recent phone call between the two, which reportedly lasted over an hour. Immediately afterward, Trump turned around and criticized President Zelensky, as if it were Zelensky’s fault for taking decisive action to defend his own country.
What national leader would not defend their country in the face of invasion? If a government were to take only half-hearted measures in such a situation, that would be tantamount to treason. Trump presents himself as a nationalist—so one might expect him to admire Ukraine’s stance. Trump claims to champion nationalism, but his admiration seems to be reserved for populist strongmen who are loyal to Putin—figures like Viktor Orbán, who I would argue are not true nationalists. If they genuinely prioritized national interests, their economies would be stronger, and they would not rely so heavily on external financial support.
Ukraine’s nationalism, by contrast, is much closer to American nationalism—fiercely independent, democratic, and rooted in the principle of sovereignty. Russia’s posture is imperialist. It does not elevate or respect its citizens, especially those outside Moscow’s elite circles, who are often treated like second-class citizens. That distinction is crucial.
Jacobsen: What are the implications for Zelensky and NATO?
Tsukerman: Zelensky cannot rely on NATO in any meaningful way after this. If NATO is still attempting to appease Trump, despite his repeated signals of hostility, it shows that the alliance is not prepared for independent strategic action outside of U.S. influence. That makes NATO, in its current form, an unreliable partner. It may offer strong rhetoric and pledges of military aid. However, when it comes to decisive action—particularly in the event of escalation involving other actors like China or a new Russian front—it cannot be counted on. That is not just a problem for Ukraine—it is a problem for NATO itself.
Jacobsen: Why?
Tsukerman: Because NATO’s dependence on the United States has become a liability. If Trump cannot be counted on to support Ukraine due to a personal vendetta against Zelensky, what would happen if a NATO member were attacked? There is no guarantee he would honour Article 5. His past rhetoric strongly suggests otherwise.
This means NATO should begin pursuing alternative strategies now. The fact that key European powers are still attempting to “salvage” the situation—rather than confront it head-on—is a sign they are not serious about building independent defence capacity. Admittedly, it is not easy. Decoupling from the U.S. militarily is a massive undertaking. Expert analyses suggest it could take many years—perhaps decades—and even then, complete independence may not be achievable. The U.S. remains a dominant global defence actor.
That said, European countries can increase their defence spending and capacity. They must because the nature of the threats they face is changing. For most NATO members, the primary risk is not large-scale conventional warfare; instead, it is the potential for hybrid warfare. Outside the Baltics, where the possibility of a direct Russian invasion cannot be ruled out, the majority of European countries face escalating asymmetric threats—cyberattacks, disinformation campaigns, and hybrid warfare.
Jacobsen: In that scenario, is U.S. involvement even necessary?
Tsukerman: In many respects, no. The United States has already diminished its capabilities in the information warfare domain. Much of its intelligence work—particularly human intelligence—has been outsourced or heavily dependent on the United Kingdom. Meanwhile, U.S. cyber operations against Russia have been scaled back significantly, partly due to internal constraints and geopolitical considerations.
So, in key areas of asymmetric defence, the U.S. is no longer the dominant player it once was. That creates space for Europe to step up and lead, either independently or in collaboration with like-minded allies outside of Washington’s sphere.
Tsukerman: NATO and its European members are failing to conduct a clear-eyed assessment of their actual threat landscape. They are conflating U.S. economic influence, U.S. defence presence, and the fundamental nature of threats they face. Instead, they need to disaggregate these issues, evaluate the concrete impact of potential U.S. absence, and make strategic decisions based on reliable data and rigorous analysis—not just fear and inertia.
If NATO members stand for anything strategically coherent, they should act accordingly. That means extending invitations to both Trump and Zelensky for future summits. Those who choose to participate will do so, and those who do not will make their position clear. The agenda should not be held hostage to personalities.
Jacobsen: Last two items, first, the Taliban. The UN and human rights organizations have again highlighted Afghanistan under Taliban rule as the most severe crisis for women globally—in terms of access to education, employment, freedom of movement, and fundamental rights. Second, Amnesty International has formally accused Israel of genocide in Gaza, citing what it claims are repeated acts causing irreparable harm to Palestinians and calling for international accountability. Your thoughts?
Tsukerman: On the first point, the more oppressive the Taliban becomes, the more normalized it seems to become internationally. Unfortunately, we may not be far off from seeing formal U.S. recognition of the Taliban, or at least tacit acceptance. World leaders who once distanced themselves from the group are now engaging openly with Taliban officials.
India’s leadership, for example, has historically sought to balance its regional interests by calibrating away from Pakistan’s Taliban ties. However, now, its engagement with Afghanistan is far more overt. Russia’s early recognition of the Taliban helped pave the way for others. Without a U.S. military presence, Afghanistan has gone from being a liability to a geopolitical asset—especially in the eyes of Russia, China, and now many Southeast Asian and Middle Eastern states.
Afghanistan is emerging as a crucial trade and transit hub for parts of the Global South, particularly as a gateway to Central Asia. Countries motivated by short-term strategic and economic interests are engaging in realpolitik—ignoring the long-term risks posed by Taliban-controlled territory.
This includes the risk of terrorist resurgence. Al-Qaeda training camps—supported or trained by Russian intelligence (GRU)—reportedly exist across Afghanistan. The Taliban once normalized and economically stabilized, could easily resume support for extremist networks, posing threats first to Southeast Asia and eventually to global security. However, this seems to be absent from most countries’ calculations. They either believe the Taliban can be contained, or they want short-term profit and will “deal with the consequences later.”
Whatever the rationale, it is clear that women’s rights are not a serious priority for any of these actors. Despite repeated international rhetoric about standing up for women, the concern is limited to domestic contexts. Abroad, women’s rights become secondary to trade routes, diplomacy, and power projection.
Jacobsen: And the genocide allegation from the Taliban?
Tsukerman: That accusation is pure propaganda. By any serious legal or demographic measure, what is happening in Gaza does not meet the definition of genocide. For example, data from sources like the CIA World Factbook indicate that Gaza’s population has grown throughout the conflict. That growth is fundamentally inconsistent with claims of systematic extermination.
Now, one can—and should—debate Israel’s military strategies and whether more should be done to reduce civilian casualties. However, that is not the same as the intentional and systematic destruction of a people based solely on identity. Some Israeli political figures have made deeply troubling statements, including comments about population transfers, and these must be addressed. However, even those fall short of meeting the legal threshold for genocide.
Meanwhile, Hamas and its affiliated propaganda networks have deliberately inflated or fabricated casualty figures to serve as powerful tools of information warfare. These figures are then cynically amplified by actors whose interest in Palestinian well-being is, at best, opportunistic and, at worst, entirely disingenuous.
Jacobsen: Final thoughts?
Tsukerman: Both the United States and the broader international community must reassess how they approach ideological threats. Tactical responses alone are not enough. Without a robust long-term strategy, whatever efforts are being made now—military, diplomatic, or humanitarian—are doomed to fail.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Irina, thank you very much.
Tsukerman: Excellent—and get well soon.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/16
Award-winning playwright and performer Alex Lyras brings ancient philosophy to the modern stage in Aristotle/Alexander, a compelling production presented by the Center for Inquiry in Los Angeles. The play dramatizes the formative relationship between Aristotle and a young Alexander the Great, exploring mentorship, ethics, and political ambition themes. Through deep philosophical lineage—from Socrates to Plato to Aristotle—Lyras contrasts ideals with pragmatism and reason with conquest. Rooted in historical depth yet charged with modern relevance, Aristotle/Alexander invites audiences to reflect on the fragility of democracy, the pursuit of legacy, and the moral challenges of leadership, both then and now.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are discussing the work of Alex Lyras—an award-winning playwright, director, and performer known for creating intellectually rich, emotionally resonant solo performances that explore themes of identity, philosophy, and sociopolitical complexity.
His most recent production, Aristotle/Alexander, presented in collaboration with the Center for Inquiry in Los Angeles, dramatizes a speculative and historically inspired encounter between the philosopher Aristotle and his young pupil, Alexander the Great. The play examines enduring political and ethical dilemmas framed through the lens of mentorship and the shaping of a future world conqueror.
Lyras’s work is acclaimed for its combination of depth, humour, and sharp commentary on the fragility of democracy and the abuse of power. A longtime presence in the Los Angeles and New York theatre scenes, Lyras brings a unique voice to contemporary playwriting, skillfully blending classical ideas with urgent modern questions.
There are many stories about Aristotle, Plato, Socrates, and the lineage of philosophical teaching that come down to us from antiquity. What inspired you to dramatize the relationship between Aristotle and Alexander the Great?
Alex Lyras: I was surprised this story hadn’t been dramatized in greater depth. We’ve all heard about how Aristotle tutored Alexander, but it’s rarely explored dramatically or philosophically sustainably. Historical fiction often mentions it in passing, but writers may avoid digging into the philosophy because it’s dense and complex.
I studied philosophy at Bucknell University and read it throughout my life. I found myself returning to this unique setup again and again: the world’s most brilliant philosopher paired with the world’s most ambitious military mind. It’s a remarkable relationship—one rooted in education and power—and yet no one seemed to be exploring it deeply on stage.
I’ve always been interested in developmental narratives, especially early formation stories. When I started researching, I didn’t find much dramatizing their relationship with nuance or complexity. I realized this was not only philosophically fertile ground but also a compelling theatrical concept. I imagined Aristotle/Alexander as a playbill title, something you might see at Lincoln Center or a major repertory theatre. It felt like the kind of title that would grab people: two names, one relationship, and centuries of tension.
So, it was a quick sell. What happens when the greatest mind in philosophy is charged with educating the most significant figure in military history? That tension—between intellect and ambition, reason and conquest—was irresistible.
Jacobsen: What stood out to you in the narratives about Aristotle? What about Alexander the Great? Did you compare their ideas or trajectories with those of Plato or Socrates to understand how those philosophical lineages evolved into the narrative you’ve created?
Lyras: The play tackles these questions gradually. How Plato created the character of Socrates in his dialogues. How Aristotle broke from Platonic Idealism and leaned more into empirical science, and how it all culminated, for better or worse, in Alexander’s development during his all too brief reign. The philosophical throughline contrasts ideals and pragmatism, ethics and empire, reason and domination. All of that informs the dramatic tension in the play.
Jacobsen: What stood out to you about Aristotle?
Lyras: Aristotle was originally from the north of Greece. Ancient Stagiera is not far from ancient Macedonia, which is basically where Thessaloniki is today. So, he was a northerner who moved to Athens, and was a bit of an outsider. But he was formidable. They called him “the brain” when he was studying at Plato’s Academy— everyone recognized his brilliance. He quickly rose to prominence and became Plato’s star student.
But after Plato died, politics took over, and Aristotle was passed over to lead the Academy. Instead, the Academy was handed to Plato’s nephew, Speusippus. Nepotism is also an ancient tradition. After Aristotle was snubbed, he left Athens and began doing independent research on the island of Lesbos, which he likely wanted to do anyway. What struck me is that someone so universally recognized as a genius did not receive what many would consider his just reward. That moment in itself is so dramatically compelling. You’re not meeting him at his height—you’re meeting him in a moment of rejection and transition.
He returns to Macedonia, which is… nothing like Athens—let’s just put it that way. While Athens was in decline politically, it remained Greece’s cultural and intellectual heart. “The school of Greece.” Even during the Roman period, people still went to Athens to study philosophy, sculpture, and architecture.But Aristotle chose to leave.
And then there’s Alexander—just 13 years old when they crossed paths. Their mentorship lasted until Alexander was about 16. You’re not going to get a juicier moment for a character study: a teenager who is, in some ways, significantly entitled but also intelligent and cultured, growing up as a prince in a court that received scholars, emissaries, and artists. That dynamic—the philosopher in exile and the royal prodigy—creates a powerful dramatic conflict.
Jacobsen: How did you think about Socrates and Plato in the context of this? Did you find meaningful philosophical contrasts?
Lyras: Definitely. You have to contextualize it and recognize that Aristotle is a very different kind of thinker. Plato is theoretical—he’s concerned with ideal forms and metaphysical structures. He’s talking about “the Good,” the cave metaphor, and “Divided Line” and other abstract ideals. These concepts are foundational for ethics.
But when you get to Aristotle, suddenly, we’re in the realm of practical ethics. He’s empirical as opposed to conceptual. He collects fifty constitutions from various city-states and begins comparing them to understand how laws are written and how societies function. He starts categorizing, organizing, and trying to make sense of the world through observation. He invents taxonomy to keep his extensive biological research organized. Then, he develops logic—the foundations of reasoning, in order to explain it all rationally to others. He didn’t want to speculate about ideas in general; he aspired to analyze them systematically. Analysis means “unravelling” in ancient greek. I love that….
Jacobsen: Was that the origin of science as we think of it today?
Lyras: In many ways, yes. Aristotle laid the groundwork for empirical reasoning. People were still steeped in mythology at that time—offering sacrifices and libations to the gods. Plato was engaged in esoteric theory. Aristotle, by contrast, grounded philosophy in causality. He introduced a method of questioning a vast number of subjects which becomes the foundation for scientific enquiry for the next thousand years.
Jacobsen: Aristotle wanted evidence and proof for what constitutes good ethical behaviour, correct?
Lyras: In a way, yes. You’re dealing with someone who’s no longer just standing on the Pnyx—the hill in Athens where citizens gave public speeches—and trying to persuade people rhetorically. That wasn’t his game. He wasn’t interested in persuasion for its own sake. He aimed to gather evidence, establish causal relationships, and leave behind a systematic body of work for others to study—especially those who hadn’t studied directly at his school.
He was also a prolific writer. Most of what we have today from Aristotle are compiled lecture notes or student transcriptions, but they’ve endured because he took the time to be methodical in his thinking. That’s a legacy of structure.
Jacobsen: Teacher-student dynamics can vary widely. How do you think Aristotle saw Alexander? How did Alexander see Aristotle? And what does that tell us about their leadership styles and eventual legacies?
Lyras: That’s a loaded question because we don’t know for sure. But there’s plenty of material out there to speculate with some confidence.
Right before Aristotle received the invitation from King Philip II to tutor his son, Alexander, he was living on the island of Lesbos, doing detailed marine biological research. Athens had become so factionalized and critical of competing schools of philosophy that he essentially retreated from it. On Lesbos, he created a kind of proto-laboratory where he could work in peace. He was in a stage of inductive reasoning—collecting data and making observations to draw hypotheses.
That contrast is essential. In logic, we often talk about deductive reasoning, where we move from a general premise to a conclusion. But Aristotle, particularly in his biological work, practiced inductive reasoning, moving from observation to hypothesis. In the play, I describe this period as one of youthful optimism. He was probably about 40—middle-aged by ancient standards—but he was entering a fertile phase of intellectual maturity.
He was also left alone long enough to do the work without constant criticism, which must have been life-affirming. Then he goes to Macedonia, which, intellectually, was years behind Athens in terms of intellectual sophistication.
Jacobsen: So, how does this relate to leadership?
Lyras: It’s central. Aristotle was stepping into a new phase of leadership himself—becoming not just a transmitter of inherited philosophy but an originator of his own system. What he was doing was totally foreign to most people. They didn’t understand it. Many thought his thinking was scattered—jumping from astronomy to marine biology to ethics and politics. They wrongly believed that you had to be an expert in one thing. But one of my favorite quotes from Aristotle, to paraphrase, is “Do we call the bee scattered, for landing on all flowers and sipping the best from each?”
Aristotle’s polymathic nature was a strength, not a weakness. His leadership, pedagogically speaking, was about breadth and synthesis. On the other hand, Alexander was raised in a world of hierarchy, military discipline, and rather brutal conquest. So what happens when a synthetic, reflective thinker teaches a brilliant, ambitious prince? That tension is core to the drama.
Jacobsen: So this is the beginning of Aristotle’s creation of what could be considered the first university—an institution where one could study a wide range of subjects.
Lyras: Yes, exactly. It’s the early model for comprehensive education—what we’d now call a university. Aristotle began building this foundation of interdisciplinary study. The Greek word for university is “πανεπιστήμιο” or pan-episteme, which literally translates to “across knowledge.”
As for Alexander, I push the envelope a bit in the play, portraying him as highly entitled and wildly arrogant. But in all likelihood, he was more sophisticated than that. Clearly he was exposed to far more than the average adolescent up north. His father, King Philip II, had already begun consolidating and expanding Macedon into an empire, and he was deeply invested in endowing Alexander with the intellectual patina he never had.
Philip invited leading thinkers and artists to the Macedonian court. Euripides had been brought north to write for the court under earlier kings. Herodotus had also travelled there. Other prominent Athenians were welcomed and treated like royalty. So Alexander grew up surrounded by culture and intellectual energy from Athens and beyond.
Militarily, he also witnessed Philip’s flexible strategies—sometimes diplomatic, sometimes forceful. So, Alexander came of age with various influences that shaped him as a thinker and a leader. He had a vision, as we say.
Jacobsen: That reminds me of exercises we did in drama class—like taking a traditional Shakespearean play and setting it in the 1950s or another specific decade. The context would change, but the core dynamics remained powerful. You’re doing something similar: starting with an ancient historical premise and bringing out its modern relevance. How do you ensure—although it almost seems guaranteed—that narratives like this remain relevant today, especially the lesser-known ones?
Lyras: That’s a great question. All I can say is that the more I study the Classics—especially this period around the rise of Hellenism—the more I see how timeless it is. Even earlier, we find incredibly resonant ideas during the Golden Age of Greece.
I think about the Mark Twain quote: “History doesn’t repeat itself, but it often rhymes.” And that’s how this feels. What are the political questions we’re grappling with today? They were wrestling with those same ones 2,500 years ago.
How do you govern a polis—a city-state? Or today, a nation? Are there different rules for people in power? Do those working for the powerful receive special advantages? Is it better for the “average” citizen to be disengaged from democracy simply because they’re overworked or underinformed? Someone juggling two or three jobs doesn’t have the time or energy to dive into a candidate’s platform or philosophy. They are too easily manipulated. This is why Socrates hated democracy. He did not have much faith in the average person to be discerning enough to make long term decisions.
These questions haven’t gone away. They’re cyclical. Plato talks about this in The Republic— around Book VIII. He outlines how democracies begin: pure, idealistic, and focused on the collective good. But over generations, the people who inherit power do not earn it through struggle or civic commitment. They begin to see the personal benefits of leadership, and bureaucracy grows.
Then, the next generation, in turn, becomes even more disconnected from civic responsibility—and power becomes the end goal. That pattern is not limited to ancient Greece. It’s everywhere, and it keeps repeating in new forms.
We want power. We want favours. And eventually, that devolves into tyranny—one person saying, “I’m getting rid of everyone else, and I’ll do it myself.” This pattern repeats. It’s not unique to Greece.
You can trace it through various ancient tyrannies—some benevolent, some brutal—from Egyptian and Mesopotamian rulers onward. The cycle is always the same: it hinges on the political philosophy of the person in power. We’ve seen it recur in modern history as well—in our own country, during the French Revolution and the Russian Revolution. These are cycles of rise, decay, collapse, and reinvention.
The more committed I was to being historically accurate—doing justice to the specifics of antiquity—the more the work began to resonate with today’s political climate. The more precise I was about the issues back then, the more people responded, “You must be talking about today.”
You can read letters from individuals who lived then and be shocked at how contemporary they sound. That’s the power of historical drama—it rhymes with the present.
Jacobsen: Let’s add one or two more questions here. Why do you personally think democracies are fragile? And what did some of the ancients, like Aristotle, say about this? Is their view different from modern thinkers?
Lyras: Sure—great question. Democracies are fragile because they are, at heart, social contracts. Thinkers like Hobbes, Hume, and John Stuart Mill wrote about this centuries later, but they were building on foundations laid by Plato and Aristotle.
A democracy only works when there is a mutual agreement to act in good faith. It requires cooperation and shared values. If someone enters a democracy to gain power for personal benefit, they can start to erode the system from within. That self-serving motive becomes contagious. Soon, everyone in power is focused on personal gain, which becomes the new social value.
That is when democracy starts to break down. Post–World War II, and even through the 1950s and 60s in the U.S., there was a greater collective awareness—a sense that we were trying to do what was best for the nation as a whole, whatever that meant in practice. But greed has always been with us. It seems to be a persistent element of human nature that resists elimination.
When enough people in power begin taking advantage of the system, others follow suit. The public begins to lose faith. That’s terrifying because democracy is not a given—it’s an idea, and we have to believe in that idea for it to function. Without that shared belief and a willingness to cooperate, the whole thing becomes shaky.
Jacobsen: What are some of your favourite quotes from Aristotle or Alexander the Great?
Lyras: Aristotle collected many insights, but one that resonates is: “At his best, man is the noblest of all animals; separated from law and justice, he is the worst.” That encapsulates Aristotle’s view of honour and nobility and the dangers of unrestrained power. His point was that we must live in a polis, a civic community governed by laws and justice. And those laws apply to everyone.
He also famously said, “Man is a political animal.” Of course, today, we would say humankind—people are political beings. We are meant to live together in communities. Human beings are not meant to be isolated in the mountains. We thrive in collectives because rationality and logic allow us to do far more together than we could alone.
Here’s another: “Educating the mind without educating the heart is no education at all.” This is particularly important in the political context. Aristotle believed that it’s not enough to know how to win wars or manipulate your enemies—you need to know how to govern and how to build a city after the conflict ends.
This was a central message he tried to impart to Alexander. War is not the end goal; ruling justly and building a functioning society are. That quote is essential to the themes of the play. Another one I love is, “Excellence is never an accident.” He emphasized that virtue must be trained—just like the sword. In the play, I draw this parallel directly: You train with your sword, but you must also train ethically. Making the right choices and acting with the right intentions is a habit, not a given. That’s profound.
And then there’s one more that feels incredibly relevant today: “It is the mark of an educated mind to be able to entertain a thought without accepting it.” We’ve lost that ability in modern discourse. If someone disagrees with you today, they’re immediately your enemy. However, Aristotle encouraged people to think critically and openly—without fear of ideas.
Jacobsen: Any favourite Alexander the Great quotes?
Lyras: Absolutely. One of my favourite quotes from Alexander the Great comes from his sense of legacy. He spent a long time in the shadow of his father, King Philip, who had already conquered much of the region surrounding Macedonia. Alexander was deeply self-conscious about what he would leave behind.
He once said: “In the end, when it’s all over, all that matters is what you’ve done. All that matters is what you leave behind.” That was a driving force for him. He wanted a legacy, and he certainly achieved one—but it came from a deep-rooted need to surpass his father.
Jacobsen: Alex, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate it.
Lyras: It was great to get into it with you. Looking forward to the next one.
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The show played March 22nd to May 18, 2025 @ Company of Angels in Los Angeles. It is preparing for an Off Broadway run in the near future. More information and a mailing list sign up are available at http://www.aristotlealexander.com/
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): СокальINFO
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/14
Steven Emmert is an experienced nonprofit executive dedicated to policy reform, advocacy, and healthcare equity. As the Executive Director of the Secular Coalition for America, he champions expanding secular voices in public policy. He fights against the rise of Christian nationalism. With a background in health access advocacy, Steven has worked with Planned Parenthood affiliates across the U.S., influencing legislation in eight states and on Capitol Hill. He is deeply committed to maintaining the separation of church and state as a foundation for democracy.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Let’s focus on two officials in President Trump’s administration who, regardless of personal practice, align with a politics commonly labeled Christian nationalism. Whether or not they actively observe the faith is less important than the agenda they champion.
By most measures, Americans opposed these nominations; nevertheless, they now shape policy from within. From your vantage point at the Secular Coalition for America—an umbrella network representing prominent humanist, atheist, and other secular organizations across the United States—why did the SCA formally oppose Russell Vought’s nomination to serve as Director of the Office of Management and Budget, and what risks did you see for pluralism and effective governance?
Steven Emmert: The short answer is that we are familiar with his work.
Russell Vought is a vocal Christian nationalist who does not recognize the separation of church and state as a fundamental principle of the U.S. Constitution. As long as the religion in question aligns with his version of Christianity, he believes it is acceptable for church and state to intermingle.
From a legal perspective, as we have recently seen, the Impoundment Control Act of 1974 requires Congress to determine federal spending. Congress holds the power of the purse, meaning it decides how and where money is allocated, while the executive branch is responsible for faithfully executing those orders. Russell Vought has supported executive overreach in budget matters, advocating for the executive branch to exert more control over spending decisions, which is not how the system is designed. Such actions raise serious constitutional concerns.
(White House)
Jacobsen: Is this related to the clause about the separation of powers for those who may not be aware?
Emmert: Yes. The issue was clarified in 1974 when President Richard Nixon attempted to withhold congressionally approved funds, leading to the passage of the Impoundment Control Act.
Jacobsen: And how did that end?
Emmert: Not well for Nixon. But he faced a Congress that was willing to stand up to him. They recognized that the three branches of government are coequal, and no single branch has unchecked authority over the others. This system was specifically designed to prevent what we are now witnessing with the Trump administration.
Jacobsen: And how does Russell Vought factor into this?
Emmert: He is not only supportive of this power shift but also played a significant role in shaping these policies at OMB.
Jacobsen: In practical terms, how does the U.S. Constitution create a secular state? Many of our readers will know the answer, but it’s always helpful to revisit first principles for those who don’t yet have them front of mind.
Emmert: The first line of the Bill of Rights declares, “Congress shall make no law respecting an establishment of religion.” That clause continues throughout the document, reinforcing the separation of church and state.
Religion and God are mentioned only twice in the U.S. Constitution—once to affirm that there will be no religious test for any elected official. The principle of separation of church and state was established by the Founding Fathers from the very beginning.
Jacobsen: In Canada, recent data suggest that religious minorities—including the unaffiliated—may now form a numerical majority. In effect, everyone is a minority. If that tipping point occurred in the past year, how does the United States compare today? In your view, what do the current demographics reveal?
Emmert: One of the key reasons we are seeing Christian nationalists become so defensive in their posturing and so aggressive in their political maneuvering is that Christian identification in the U.S. is in decline. Not that long ago, over 80% of Americans identified as Christian. That number has now dropped to 63%, while those reporting no religious affiliation have climbed to 30%.
Christian nationalists recognize that demographics are not in their favour, and they are doing everything they can to maintain the power they still hold and to expand it.
Jacobsen: What was Russell Vought’s role in Project 2025?
Emmert: He played a significant role in shaping it. He wrote much of the White House section, focusing on the structure and function of the executive branch. Beyond that, he was also one of the project’s co-creators, coordinating the various authors and organizations that contributed to its 900-page blueprint for a second Trump administration.
What is particularly alarming is how much of that plan has already been implemented.
Jacobsen: What is the scope of the Office of Management and Budget (OMB)?
Emmert: OMB is generally a bureaucratic agency that does not get much media attention. Its primary function is budgetary oversight—analyzing numbers and ensuring federal agencies follow financial guidelines. Historically, OMB would only make the news when the president released a budget proposal to Congress since the office is responsible for drafting the financial blueprint that reflects the administration’s priorities.
However, OMB plays a far more aggressive and politicized role in the current administration. Instead of just managing budgets, they now decide who gets paid and who does not, which is illegal. It will directly impact anyone with a government contract, those who rely on federal assistance, and any business or institution that deals with the federal government.
Every day could bring a new financial or legal disruption, depending on their discretionary actions.
Pete Hegseth hosting Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu at the Pentagon.
Jacobsen: What do we see regarding Christian nationalism being used as both a bulwark and an attack on the principles of a pluralistic society?
Emmert: Christian nationalism could reshape daily life in countless ways. One of the most immediate concerns is how they intend to redefine immigration policies. Russell Vought has already openly advocated for changes that would limit eligibility for immigration and citizenship based on religious and cultural criteria.
This is just one example of how Christian nationalism could be weaponized to erode pluralism and exclude those who do not align with their ideological vision. The broader consequences extend into education, reproductive rights, LGBTQ+ protections, and voting laws—all areas where they seek to entrench their worldview at the expense of constitutional secularism.
And he said that immigration eligibility should depend on whether or not a person has accepted Israel’s God, biblical laws, and a specific understanding of history—essentially confirming that, under this framework, one could only immigrate to the United States if they were Christian.
That goes against every principle upon which the United States was founded. Yet, it is just one example of how their vision for the nation completely diverges from reality. The U.S. is a melting pot of cultures, traditions, and customs. Still, their policies seek to privilege Christians over all other faith traditions—and particularly over those with no religious affiliation.
One of the other major initiatives they advocate for is Schedule F, which would dramatically alter the federal civil service system. In the United States, federal employees are protected from political interference, allowing them to serve across multiple administrations based on expertise rather than political loyalty.
These individuals—many with decades of experience, specialized training, and high-level qualifications—are responsible for administering laws passed by Congress and signed by the president. Schedule F would eliminate these protections and reclassify up to 40,000 federal employees as political appointees, meaning their job security would depend entirely on whether they align with the ideology of the current administration.
This is already beginning to take effect. What we are losing in the federal workforce is experience and competence. In their place, we see positions filled based on political loyalty alone. The only qualification necessary seems to be fealty to the narrative that the 2020 election was stolen—or whatever new ideological litmus test they impose. Government positions are increasingly reserved for those willing to pledge loyalty to a specific ideological agenda.
Jacobsen: What about Pete Hegseth as Secretary of Defense? The principle of meritocracy—hiring based on ability and qualifications—is a laudable value in and of itself. However, what we are witnessing is not meritocracy.
Emmert: From my perspective, every day is a national embarrassment.
With Hegseth’s nomination, concerns were raised about his history of alcohol abuse, his treatment of his ex-wives, and his inability to manage small nonprofit organizations. But even if none of that were true, the fact remains: he is the least qualified person ever nominated for Secretary of Defense in U.S. history. And yet, the Senate confirmed him.
It is terrifying on many levels, particularly from a national security perspective. The Secretary of Defense is responsible for leading the Pentagon, managing the armed forces, and shaping U.S. military policy worldwide—and this role has been handed to someone with no experience in military strategy, governance, or defence leadership.
Then, we saw Tulsi Gabbard confirmed to lead U.S. intelligence agencies. Clearly, competence is not a priority in these appointments.
Jacobsen: Can you touch on Hegseth’s rhetoric about historical religious conflicts, such as the Crusades?
Emmert: His language is deeply alarming. He has openly framed Western civilization in terms of religious warfare, even stating, “If you believe in Western civilization, think like a crusader.”
You have to chuckle so you do not cry because this is the mindset we are dealing with—Christian nationalism is framed as the key to national success. But in reality, it is simply a strategy to consolidate power among those who already hold it.
Jacobsen: I’m struck by how many Americans are mobilizing against these developments—people from varied backgrounds, ages, and perspectives joining in protest and activism—which is heartening. From your vantage point, what response are you observing to figures like Pete Hegseth, Russell Vought, and others, on the ground and online? Please answer broadly, capturing the wider mood.
Emmert: We are well aware that one of the major consequences of these appointments will be increased discrimination against nonreligious service members. This has been a persistent issue—whether in the fight to establish humanist chaplains on military bases or to protect non-Christian soldiers from religious discrimination. With Hegseth leading the Pentagon, we are likely to see multiple setbacks in our progress.
Jacobsen: What about women in the service? We have already seen anti-trans policies affecting enlisted personnel.
Emmert: Hegseth has made his position very clear. He may have said whatever was necessary during his Senate confirmation hearings, but his views are well known.
This is not just a moral issue but a national security concern. When internal ideological battles become the priority over actual defence strategy, it weakens military readiness and morale. Instead of focusing on external threats, there is a growing effort to purge the ranks based on ideological purity—whether regarding religion, gender identity, or political alignment. That should alarm everyone.
Jacobsen: What percentage of the military identifies as non-Christian?
Emmert: I do not know that exact number off the top of my head. I should look into it.
However, we do know that among the 30% of Americans who identify as nonreligious, the percentage is much higher among younger generations—well over 60%. Given that the armed forces are predominantly composed of younger recruits, it is reasonable to assume that the percentage of nonreligious service members is significantly higher than 30%.
Jacobsen: So, are the military’s demographic shifts likely even more pronounced?
Emmert: Correct. The younger generation of enlisted personnel is quite different from the older military leadership that currently sets policy.
Jacobsen: What else should I be asking?
Emmert: Well, one important question is how Christian nationalist rhetoric is shaping policy decisions, particularly how historical religious conflicts—such as the Crusades—are being invoked as a comparison to modern-day struggles.
Jacobsen: That gets to the heart of it. How widespread is this historical framing among people who openly identify as Christian nationalists—and among those who share the movement’s beliefs while avoiding the label, even if they won’t say so?
Emmert: Among the rank and file of people who identify as Christian nationalists, I do not think historical comparisons are very common. Most do not invoke the Crusades or other historical religious conflicts in their rhetoric.
However, we do see these references frequently among movement leaders and influencers—especially among figures like Hegseth, who has explicitly framed Western civilization as a modern crusade. This type of historical revisionism serves to justify aggressive political and military actions under the guise of religious and cultural preservation.
There seems to be a near-religious devotion to certain figures in leadership—perhaps worship is too strong a word. Still, there is a blind allegiance where whatever they say is accepted as absolute truth. Their followers will buy into whatever is being sold.
Jacobsen: Do you believe that Hegseth, during his time leading the Pentagon, will lead a nonpartisan, inclusive military overall?
Emmert: No.
His priority will be to target transgender soldiers. But once he succeeds, why would anyone assume it stops there?
Russell Vought seen here at the White House.
Jacobsen: Are you receiving messages of fear and concern from secular service members?
Emmert: We had already heard about these issues before Hegseth took over the Pentagon. One of our member organizations is the Military Association of Atheists & Freethinkers (MAAF), and they see firsthand the challenges nonreligious soldiers face.
A soldier’s experience with religious discrimination depends largely on which base they are assigned to. If they are stationed at one base, they have relative freedom. But if they are reassigned, they could end up under leadership that actively promotes Christianity, refuses to allow non-Christian groups to gather, and pressures soldiers to conform to Christian ideals.
This has been happening for years, but under Hegseth, such behaviour is being encouraged rather than checked.
Jacobsen: Has Hegseth or Vought ever genuinely stood for anything that aligns with the broader goals of the Secular Coalition for America?
Emmert: That aligns with our goals. Not at all. One of the major things Vought did as Director of the Office of Management and Budget was to effectively shut down the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB).
The CFPB was created after the Great Recession to protect consumers from predatory financial practices by banks and other financial institutions. Since its inception, the bureau has recovered over $80 billion for consumers who were victims of fraudulent banking practices.
Vought claimed that the CFPB was being “weaponized” against the financial industry and labelled it a “woke” agency. His solution? Dismantle it.
Rather than protecting victims of financial abuse, he framed predatory businesses as the victims. These very institutions exploited people for profit. This was just another example of how the administration shifted power away from ordinary Americans and toward corporate interests.
So now Vought has set up a tip line where people can call in and report alleged examples of politicization within the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau (CFPB). The sheer number of lies they are willing to spread is staggering.
Jacobsen: Is America being gaslit?
Emmert: Yes.
Jacobsen: Robert Reich—the former Labor Secretary and academic—argues that since 1980, roughly $50 trillion in wealth has shifted from the bottom 90 percent of Americans to the top 10. He traces the turn to Ronald Reagan’s supply-side revolution. Seen that way, it’s understandable why many voters feel the system is rigged; the impulse is to torch the status quo and try something new. That, I think, is what they heard from President Trump: the establishment failed you, and only radical change will do.
Yet voters did not intend a mandate to ease predatory banking, weaken worker-safety rules, or otherwise tilt policy toward corporate power. Those, however, are the initiatives moving forward, and the result is a government growing friendlier to big business while ordinary people lag.
Setting that observation aside, a concrete question: within the military and the federal machinery, what were the earliest direct moves against secular governance? Since this administration took office in late January, have there been specific actions—inside the services, executive agencies, or across the federal government—that illustrate that shift?
Emmert: One of the first significant policy shifts within the military was their targeting of transgender service members. Now, that issue concerns many secular people, but it is not explicitly a secular issue. However, one of the policies that directly impacts the secular community was the creation of a commission last week to investigate “anti-Christian bias” in federal agencies.
The problem is that their definition of “discrimination and bias” is not what normal people would consider discrimination or bias.
Jacobsen: Have they provided any definitions of what they mean?
Emmert: I have not seen any formal definitions yet. Honestly, the details don’t matter to them.
This is about headlines—about getting people to believe, “Oh my gosh, the federal government has an anti-Christian bias and has been discriminating against Christians!” It is the same old “War on Christmas” narrative.
This rhetoric feeds into that resentment and redirects frustration away from corporate greed and economic policies toward an imaginary culture war.
Jacobsen: Much of the foundational rhetoric that got them into power centered on taking legitimate economic grievances and redirecting anger and disillusionment toward already vulnerable populations. Legitimate concerns but directed at illegitimate targets.
Emmert: Yes. This is a silly anecdotal story, but it happened yesterday or the day before. There was a minor incident on my bus ride home—nothing that escalated too far, but I witnessed it.
The man sitting behind me—wearing a hard hat—apologized as I got off the bus and asked if I was okay. I assured him that I was fine. But as I stepped off, I half-jokingly said to him, “As with everything else, Sal, I blame Trump.”
I chuckled. But he responded, “Oh, no. No. No. Trump’s looking out for the little guy.” And he meant it. It was eye-opening. Here is someone who truly believes that even though the ultra-rich have amassed $250 billion since the last election alone.
Jacobsen: That is a failure of the Democrats’ messaging and policy.
Emmert: Yep.
Jacobsen: It is about being out of touch with working people. And yes, it is also about real, decades-long neoliberal economic policies that have hollowed out the working class.
Emmert: It is.
Jacobsen: Because I have worked in those jobs before. They are hard jobs. Some areas of specialized construction are all-consuming. People drink and smoke on job sites for a reason—because the work is grueling.
Emmert: No doubt. It is physically demanding and mentally exhausting. And those workers deserve a break. They also deserve a government that does not ignore them when financial services organizations scam them or when loan sharks are given free rein to set up shop in a strip mall.
Instead, the system is rigged against them, and they are told the real enemy is a trans person enlisting in the military or a highly educated woman getting a promotion instead of them. That is not the actual issue.
The real issue is that they are being screwed over by a government that prioritizes corporate profits over workers—and the pandemic only made that worse. But misdirection is the goal.
It is like a magician’s trick—they tell you to look over here while they steal from you.
“I am protecting your daughters from a trans swimmer in a high school meet.”
Meanwhile, they are robbing you blind and taking away your economic power. And it is working—wildly successfully.
Jacobsen: How are mobilization efforts going at the Secular Coalition for America?
Emmert: We are holding our annual Lobby Day on March 11, and we would love to have as many participants as possible join us here in Washington, D.C.
If you cannot attend in person, it would still be incredibly helpful if you could call or email your member of Congress—whether through their D.C. office or their local office—as well as both of your senators’ offices on that day to let them know that you support the separation of church and state.
It is more critical now than ever.
Jacobsen: Steven, thank you, as always.
Emmert: I appreciate it.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): СокальINFO
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/10
Dr. Joanne Liu has spent her career on the front lines of catastrophe. The former International President of Médecins Sans Frontières (MSF) and a leading voice in global health, she has grappled with the world’s hardest problems: the 2014–2016 Ebola epidemic, the bombing of hospitals in active war zones, and the weaponization of migration for political gain.
Containing Ebola, she argues, initially proved nearly impossible: the virus was poorly understood in the region, health workers were infected, and fragile health systems unraveled in real time. Preparedness failures—local, regional, and international—turned the largest Ebola outbreak on record into a global alarm. From those lessons, Liu indicts political timidity and the erosion of humanitarian norms, insisting on stronger international coordination, genuine respect for medical neutrality, and far more proactive crisis management to protect the most vulnerable.
Liu is a pediatric emergency physician at CHU Sainte-Justine, a professor at McGill University’s School of Population and Global Health, and director of the Pandemics and Health Emergencies Readiness Lab (PEARL). From 2013 to 2019, she led MSF, where she oversaw responses to Ebola, the systematic targeting of medical facilities, and the global migrant crisis—work she chronicles in L’Ebola, les Bombes et les Migrants. She serves on multiple global health advisory boards and continues to advocate for pandemic preparedness grounded in humanitarian law and informed by her lived experience in the field.
(Chatham House)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: As MSF’s former International President, what were some of the biggest challenges you faced during the 2014–2016 Ebola outbreak?
Dr. Joanne Liu: The biggest challenge we faced as an organization was the overwhelming scale of the epidemic. Looking at the history of Ebola outbreaks, let’s take a step back. Ebola is a virus that causes viral hemorrhagic fever.
Ebola hemorrhagic fever has a case fatality rate of approximately 50% to 70%, depending on the outbreak and the healthcare response. In 2014, there were no specific treatments or vaccines. While we could diagnose the disease, there was no rapid test available. The challenge was that this was the largest outbreak in history in terms of the number of cases.
Before the 2014–2016 outbreak, the largest recorded Ebola outbreak had occurred in 2000–2001 in Uganda, with 425 cases and 224 deaths. The 2014–2016 outbreak in West Africa—affecting Guinea, Sierra Leone, and Liberia—resulted in more than 28,000 infections and over 11,000 deaths.
Having collectively experienced COVID-19, we better understand personal protective equipment (PPE) and the importance of infection control in healthcare settings. But back then, we had to scale up these measures dramatically in West Africa.
Working with healthcare facilities without experience managing an Ebola outbreak was one of the toughest challenges. They lacked the experience, training, and infrastructure to handle such a highly contagious and lethal virus. As a result, when the outbreak began, many healthcare workers became infected and died.
We were working under extreme conditions. The biggest challenges were the limited number of healthcare personnel, the constant exposure to death, and the personal risk of infection. Every single day, we were confronted with the brutal reality of the disease’s lethality.
I remember doing ward rounds and seeing six patients who had died. In PPE, we could only stay in the Ebola treatment units (ETUs) for about an hour because of the intense heat and lack of air conditioning. We had to carefully time our medical visits to minimize risk and maximize efficiency.
To put this in perspective, at CHU Sainte-Justine in Montreal, where I work, we see about 90,000 pediatric patients per year. Our emergency department might experience a maximum of six deaths in a typical year. Yet, during the Ebola outbreak, I witnessed many deaths in a single ward visit.
The greatest difficulties were the shortage of trained staff, the constant exposure to death, and the ever-present risk of infection.
Jacobsen: In the past, you have been critical of the international response. What structural changes are necessary to expedite these types of responses to any outbreak like Ebola?
Liu: We criticized the response because the first cases were traced back to late 2013. However, if I am not mistaken, the outbreak was officially declared in March 2014. It was not until August 8, 2014, that the World Health Organization (WHO) declared it a Public Health Emergency of International Concern.
For about five to six months, we struggled to convince people that this outbreak was different. If we had surged our response capacity earlier, we could have made a significant difference in people’s lives. We worked hands-on in the field, but people were overwhelmed, and the large-scale response did not happen readily. It took several months.
What happened afterward was that the world realized—this was quite interesting—how significant a biological threat could be, not just for WHO but for the rest of the world. What does it mean when a biological threat emerges, spreads rapidly, and truly threatens lives?
For the first time, every day on the news for several weeks, people saw healthcare workers in personal protective equipment (PPE), wearing yellow hazmat suits, walking around and caring for patients. It was a striking image. It was very foreign and strange for medical professionals, but it captured public awareness. People suddenly understood, “Oh my God, this is real, and it can happen.”
What was particularly interesting back then was that countries in West Africa were quickly overwhelmed and needed help from the international community. However, the response from wealthier nations was slow. The global north did not get involved until they felt personally threatened.
And when did they feel threatened? It was when two volunteers from Samaritan’s Purse were medically evacuated to the United States at the end of July 2014. Suddenly, we went from indifference to panic—Ebola was knocking at the door of the Americas. It became a real threat, and there was an urgent push to act fast.
Following the outbreak, numerous evaluations of the response, including WHO’s performance, were conducted. One key outcome was the WHO’s decision to establish a dedicated Emergency Department with greater operational capacity to respond swiftly to such crises. That was one of the key legacies of the Ebola outbreak.
However, the bigger legacy that made a difference during COVID-19 was the development of a research and development (R&D) roadmap. This roadmap prioritized field research and identified the types of viruses for which vaccines should be developed. Additionally, a principle was established that scientific knowledge should be shared openly during a global health crisis.
This principle was critical during COVID-19 when the virus’s genomic sequence was shared early in 2020. Sometimes, people fail to connect the dots, but events unfold more smoothly than they might appear. Even though some people felt there were delays in responding to COVID-19, the process was significantly smoother than it would have been without the lessons learned from the Ebola outbreak of 2014–2016.
Ebola response team in Liberia in 2014. (USAID)
Jacobsen: When an outbreak hits—Ebola, COVID-19—experience suggests only coordinated action can contain it. From your vantage as a clinician and former MSF president, what are the principal obstacles to turning that imperative into population-level solutions across member states and multilateral institutions? Where do you see the bottlenecks—governance, financing, supply chains, data sharing, or operational surge capacity? And how much do misinformation and disinformation now degrade public trust and slow response compared with earlier crises?
Liu: I think the main impediment to an adequate response, if we were to have another large-scale epidemic that escalates into a pandemic, would likely be leadership—or rather, the political will to take decisive action.
This is a real concern because one of the unfortunate legacies of COVID-19 is the widespread mistrust and distrust in leadership. People increasingly question facts and data, sometimes outright refusing to believe them or assuming they are part of a larger conspiracy.
At the same time, disinformation and misinformation fuel this skepticism, making public health responses even more difficult. We are in a much more difficult position than before COVID-19.
What is particularly disheartening is that despite our scientific advancements—sending robots to Mars and launching satellites around Earth—a significant portion of the population still does not believe in science.
What strikes me the most, and I should have known this, but was naïve at the time, is that after the 2014–2016 Ebola outbreak, I participated in numerous tabletop simulations and crisis response exercises. And you know what? We never imagined a scenario where state leaders would refuse to believe in science and facts.
That is the greatest challenge we face today.
Jacobsen: Now, the Kunduz hospital airstrike. In 2015, there was a U.S. airstrike on an MSF hospital in Kunduz, Afghanistan. MSF called the attack a war crime and demanded an independent investigation. It was widely condemned. What were the key factors or failures that led to this tragedy?
Liu: On October 3, 2015, the Kunduz trauma center was struck by airstrikes five times in the middle of the night. It was unexpected because the hospital was fully functioning, and we had been operating there for over five years. 42 people died, 14 MSF staff died.
We began negotiating our presence in Kunduz between 2008 and 2011, and we officially opened the trauma center in 2011. It was a 110-bed facility with an intensive care unit, an emergency room, three operating theatres, and 100 hospital beds. It was always at full capacity, treating patients with severe injuries.
At the time of the attack, the frontlines were shifting. The hospital was previously located close to the frontline but on the government-controlled side. However, just days before the attack, control of the area shifted to the opposition—the Taliban.
MSF always maintained a strict policy of neutrality, treating patients from all sides of the conflict. Both government forces and opposition fighters received care at the facility. However, this shift in territorial control affected what happened.
One crucial point to remember is that we were always transparent. We communicated regularly with all parties involved in the conflict and shared our exact GPS coordinates multiple times. Everyone knew where we were.
In that area, we were one of the few buildings with lights on in the middle of the night because, as you may know, there was no central electricity. Everyone relied on generators.
It is possible that the hospital’s ending up on opposition-controlled territory played a role in what happened. We will never know for sure. There have been several investigations, and we requested an independent inquiry from the Humanitarian and International Fact-Finding Commission (HIFCC). However, it never happened because the two countries involved—Afghanistan and the United States—did not give their consent.
A young boy who lost both of his parents to Ebola waits at a USAID food distribution center in Liberia in 2014. (USAID)
Jacobsen: How did this change MSF’s approach to operating in conflict zones?
Liu: We conducted our internal investigation at MSF, and our findings were published and publicly available.
One of the most damning aspects of this tragedy, as I detailed in my book, was that once the attack began, we were unable to stop it. We called everyone—we contacted the United Nations, the special forces, the Pentagon—but we could not get the airstrikes to stop.
Afterward, rebuilding trust and dialogue was extremely difficult. You have to understand that 42 people died, including 14 of our colleagues. The entire MSF movement was in mourning, yet we had to continue our work. We had to care for people—not just in Kunduz, but everywhere.
This is why we fought to clarify the rules of engagement and the laws of war. Do we share the same interpretation of these rules? That question led us to support the work on U.N. Security Council Resolution 2286, which reaffirmed international humanitarian law (IHL) and the protection of medical facilities in conflict zones.
More specifically, we strengthened our direct lines of communication—particularly with the U.S. military. We established what we call an emergency contact system, which we symbolically refer to as a “red phone.” If something happens, we have a designated number to escalate the situation to a high-level chain of command immediately.
We thought we had such a system in place before the attack on Kunduz, but it failed. It was not functioning when we needed it most.
Jacobsen: Now, moving on to the migrant crisis. In Western media, we are seeing a significant rise in anti-immigrant and anti-migrant sentiment. This directly affects how governments handle migration crises and their mitigation efforts.
Many people are unaware that migrants have rights. On an international level, what are we seeing regarding migrant crises, both from a security and humanitarian perspective? What issues are they facing consistently? And are there specific challenges that are particularly severe for migrants today?
Liu: When discussing security and migration, one of the key points I emphasize is that if international humanitarian law (IHL) is not upheld, and if wars are fought without limits, then we should not be surprised that civilians flee. If we want to reduce forced migration, then civilians must be protected.
The reality is that today, 120 million people are forcibly displaced worldwide, and about 50% of them are internally displaced persons (IDPs).
Even when people flee due to horrific violence, they often try to stay as close as possible to their homes. They either relocate within their own country or seek refuge in neighbouring countries. 69% of refugees are in neighbouring countries of the places they fled.
And why? Because people want to go back home. No one wants to be a refugee. No one wants to start from scratch in an unfamiliar country, especially in a place where winter temperatures drop to minus 13 degrees. People do not want to be displaced. That is the first thing to understand.
From a security standpoint, we must return to the rules of war—the fundamental principles of protecting civilians. Civilian infrastructure, such as hospitals, schools, and markets, should not be considered legitimate targets unless proven otherwise. If we continue pursuing wars without limits, then we will inevitably see displacement without limits.
On the humanitarian side, forced displacement is happening everywhere. While the numbers are reaching record highs, displacement is not new. People have been moving throughout history due to adversity, conflict, and survival challenges.
Humans are inherently survivors. They will go where they believe they have a better chance of survival—for themselves, their families, and their children. Right now, 120 million people are in forced displacement, and they require humanitarian aid. Yet, funding for these displaced populations is extremely difficult to secure.
Take Sudan, for example. A war has been raging for over a year, yet it barely makes headlines. Twelve million people have been forcibly displaced in Sudan, but it is rarely discussed in the media. Why? Because media coverage is monopolized by a few conflicts—often those that directly affect the global north.
Jacobsen: The conditions in migrant and refugee camps are often dire. They rarely meet basic living standards. You have raised concerns about this before. What are some of the worst conditions you have witnessed?
Liu: It depends. There are refugee camps, but there are also internally displaced persons (IDP) camps. The reality is that there are more IDPs than refugees in formal camps. Right now, Sudan is breaking records for failing to uphold even the most basic standards of human dignity in its IDP camps.
The Gaza Strip is another example. The conditions there are devastating. We have seen unbearable, unsustainable images that speak for themselves. These are some of the worst examples of displacement crises today.
What was particularly striking in terms of refugee camps—and what shocked people—was what happened in the global north in places like Greece, Italy, and the Balkans during and after the start of the Syrian war. Millions of people were forced to flee.
Of course, when comparing those camps to refugee camps in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (DRC) or Ethiopia, the conditions are different. But what was truly surprising was seeing such dire conditions in wealthy nations—places that should have had the means to provide security, food, and necessities yet failed to do so. That was what I found particularly shocking.
I remember visiting a refugee camp in Greece, and a woman told me they could not go to the bathroom at night without facing the threat of sexual and gender-based violence. It was horrifying.
Jacobsen: What has changed for the better regarding global policy and law regarding migrants? And what remains inadequate or insufficient for the needs of over 100 million displaced people?
Liu: I don’t know much has improved in global migration policy. I had some hope in 2018 when the Global Compact for Migration was adopted in Marrakech. That agreement recognized that migration is inevitable and should be safe, orderly, and regulated. It was meant to establish a framework for making migration as safe as possible for those forced to flee.
But in reality, it was one of those “kumbaya” moments—a symbolic agreement that was not meaningfully implemented. Right now, I am deeply concerned about migration and the well-being of migrants worldwide—including here in Canada. Listening to political leaders, you hear migrants portrayed as the cause of all societal problems.
They are blamed for housing shortages, strained healthcare systems, and, in Quebec, the perceived decline of French language proficiency. This rhetoric extends to claims that migrants threaten the identity of Quebec’s citizens.
Framing migrants as a threat is absurd, especially when you understand that these are people fleeing for their lives. As a humanitarian worker, I find this mindset deeply troubling. And I acknowledge my bias—I always disclose it upfront. I am a product of migration.
Jacobsen: What is Canada doing right and wrong regarding migrants and humanitarian work? How does Canada measure up if we use international law and universal human rights as benchmarks for comparison?
Liu: Well, you just said it. If we were to politically reinforce the application of international humanitarian law (IHL) and universal human rights and truly follow the Global Compact for Migration—which we are a signatory to—then we would be in a much better position.
It is not as if the tools do not exist. They are there. The issue is implementation. Instead of applying them consistently, we choose when to use them based on political convenience.
Jacobsen: What other ways are migrants used as a form of political currency? Beyond the fear-mongering you mentioned earlier—where migrants are framed as a burden or a threat to local culture—how else do political leaders exploit migration for their agendas? The reality is that most migrants are simply trying to survive. More often than not, they are barely surviving.
Liu: For me, migrants have become a scapegoat. They are a convenient way to divert attention from our real challenges, which makes the situation even harder.
Building public support for migration is challenging when many Canadians feel uncertain about their own futures. And they are right—these are uncertain times.
When people feel economically and socially insecure, being open-minded, welcoming, and optimistic can be challenging. Suppose they do not feel confident that they can provide the basics for themselves and their loved ones. How can they be expected to extend that support to others?
That is human nature, and I do not blame people for feeling that way. People want security. If they feel they cannot provide for themselves, they will be reluctant to help others.
As humanitarians and leaders, we must listen to those concerns and find the right balance. But instead, migrants are being used as political currency—a convenient scapegoat for the broader challenges we face.
Jacobsen: Dr. Liu, thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate it.
Liu: Thank you very much.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): СокальINFO
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/09
Mohammad Fahim Dashti spent three decades defending Afghans’ right to know. A veteran reporter, editor, and organizer, he survived the bombing that killed his friend Ahmad Shah Massoud in 2001, rebuilt his career as editor-in-chief of Hasht-e-Subh Daily in Kabul, and helped found Afghanistan’s National Journalists Union (ANJU) to give reporters a measure of protection in a perilous profession. Born in 1972, Dashti belonged to the small cadre of independent editors who insisted that facts mattered even when power did not.
After months of recovery from his injuries, he returned to the newsroom, arguing that a free press was indispensable to any political settlement. A nephew of Abdullah Abdullah and a close associate of Ahmad Shah Massoud, Dashti became the public voice of Massoud’s National Resistance Front after the fall of Kabul in 2021, pressing the world not to look away. He was killed on September 5, 2021, during clashes with the Taliban in Panjshir Province, while opposing the movement’s takeover following the U.S. withdrawal.
His legacy now runs through his daughter, Marwa Dashti. Through the Fahim Dashti Foundation, she promotes free expression and offers concrete support to journalists uprooted by the Taliban’s return. Speaking from Albania, where she has built her own advocacy, Marwa argues that Afghanistan has been consigned to a “state of exception” in which women’s rights are treated as expendable. Feminism, she contends, is not an import but a daily act of resistance—and one that deserves international backing. The foundation’s current projects are deliberately practical: training displaced Afghan reporters so they can keep working in exile, and funding scholarships for Afghan girls in neighboring countries shut out of school at home. She also calls for sustained attention from governments and media organizations that once pledged not to abandon Afghan women.
In this conversation, Marwa reflects on her father’s example and the movement he helped build; on the world’s failure to stand up for Afghan women; and on the concrete ways outsiders can help.
(Refugees International)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Why is free expression indispensable to women’s rights—especially the work of advocacy—beyond merely having those protections formally codified on paper?
Marwa Dashti: Freedom of speech is essential, especially at the Fahim Dashti Foundation. My father spent approximately thirty years of his life working toward this cause. I witnessed firsthand how he and his colleagues helped make freedom of expression possible in a country where, during the Taliban’s first regime (1996–2001), even the idea of press freedom was unimaginable.
I saw how this freedom strengthened many people in Afghanistan—particularly women. After decades of systemic oppression, they were finally able to express themselves and speak freely. While this may not seem extraordinary to those living in Western democracies, it was a monumental achievement.
One of the main reasons women’s rights progressed in Afghanistan over the last two decades was that women had a platform. They could speak out, critique authority, and share their stories, which gave them visibility and agency.
Jacobsen: How do you remember your father?
Dashti: To me, my father was never just my father. When people speak to me and offer their condolences, many people say things like, “I’m sorry your father passed away.” But they sometimes forget that he was also my mentor in many ways. I specifically remember when I was four years old—I went to his office for the first time, and that was when I decided I wanted to become a journalist.
From then on, I would go to his office every day after school. I would sit in on meetings and watch his colleagues at work—it was incredible to witness. Seeing my father work was powerful, but knowing that he was also fighting for women’s rights, perhaps in part because he wanted me to have more opportunities as I grew up—that feeling is difficult to describe. Honestly, it was something else.
Jacobsen: How was your experience volunteering at Afghanistan’s National Journalists Union?
Dashti: I started volunteering there at 16, about two years before the Taliban took over again. I began by learning the basics—sending emails and doing standard tasks, the work any intern or volunteer would typically start with.
But the most important part for me was seeing my dad in action. That is what I call it—seeing him in action—because I do not think people understand how dangerous it was for us and our entire family. I do not think anyone outside knows the extent of the threats we received. Sometimes, we could not even go to school because the threats had become severe.
Yet, despite all this, my father continued to speak the truth—as he called it. He dared to critique leaders who could have responded in any way, including harming us, his children. But he still prioritized his work and his principles. That is something I will always admire.
Jacobsen: How was your time in Albania before coming to Canada?
Dashti: I went to Albania exactly one week after I received the news that my father had passed away. As you can imagine, I was in the shock phase of it all. I was in Pakistan when I heard the news, and honestly, that entire week is a blank in my memory. I think the trauma and the shock made it impossible for me to process anything.
The next thing I remember after learning about my father’s death was seeing my older brother in Albania—he had been in Turkey at the time, and we reunited a week later. I remember looking at the different members of my family and seeing how each of them was coping with the grief in their own way.
I saw my younger brother go through denial. I saw my mother go through a period of depression. Everyone processed the grief differently, of course. I remember thinking to myself: “Okay, I can either let this grief consume me, or I can step up and take responsibility for my father’s legacy and my family.”
That was the moment my advocacy journey began. I started giving interviews, speaking about women’s rights in Afghanistan, and working with my mother and my father’s colleagues and friends to begin planning the foundation. For me, Albania marks the beginning of my active advocacy journey.
(Facebook)
Jacobsen: And you were there for eight months, correct?
Dashti: Eight months.
Jacobsen: Was it intended to be temporary, or was there a particular reason to move on from there to another country?
Dashti: No, it was always meant to be temporary. Right after the Taliban took over, we had to go to Pakistan because that was the only country we could access at the time. From there, we were planning to migrate to France.
But after my father passed away—again, that whole week is completely blank in my memory—a friend of my father’s reached out to my mother and suggested that we consider going to Canada instead of France. The main reason was the language. My siblings and I already spoke English, so moving to Canada would allow us to transition into a new life more easily.
Vital Voices, co-founded by Hillary Clinton, sponsored our flight and temporary stay in Albania. They also helped begin our immigration case to Canada. So yes, it was always planned as a temporary stay.
Jacobsen: Arriving in Canada without a language barrier is a significant advantage for anyone. How did you experience the cultural shift? Canada has a very different culture from Albania, Pakistan, or Afghanistan.
Dashti: Yes, there were moments of culture shock, of course. That is part of any major move. But with Canada, because of the large immigrant population, we had a cushion.
The Afghan community in Canada is huge. If we had gone somewhere else in the world, we might have felt like outsiders. But in Canada, almost everyone is either a first-generation or second-generation immigrant. You get this sense that refugees and newcomers built this country, giving you a certain feeling of belonging.
Of course, it is not the same feeling as being in your own country, but there is a sense of comfort and inclusion, to some degree.
Jacobsen: Is the character of Afghan identity in Canada different from what you experienced growing up at home?
Dashti: Yes. It is very different. Inside the chaos, it feels much bigger than when you step outside. When I was in Afghanistan, perhaps it all felt too normal—maybe even desensitized. But I always say this: whenever I tell people I am a woman or a girl from Afghanistan, the first thing they say is, “Oh my God, your English is so good.”
I’m like—yes, I went to school like anyone else would. Right? I sometimes feel that people forget how normal our lives are. I was a regular teenager.
I had a One Direction phase. How much more “normal teenager” can you get? I went to school, I had friends, and we did typical teenage things. I know that the situation in Afghanistan now is very different from what it was when I was growing up, but I think when you’re on the inside, the ethnic divisions that have existed in Afghanistan for centuries don’t feel as prominent or problematic as they appear from the outside.
Unfortunately, I do see some Afghan diaspora communities—especially outside of Afghanistan—where those ethnic divides are deeply ingrained. I don’t understand why. I cannot explain it because, as someone who lived in Afghanistan all my life, my friendships were never based on ethnicity. We were friends. We were like sisters. In the workplace, too—I saw my father working closely with people from all ethnic backgrounds. That never prevented them from collaborating.
But unfortunately, in some Afghan communities outside the country, I do see lingering prejudice and divisions.
Afghan women and girls attending gathering to address their concerns in 2011.
Jacobsen: Has the international community abandoned Afghanistan?
Dashti: Yes, I would say so—definitely. I was at the United Nations a few weeks ago in March and was there last year for the Commission on the Status of Women (CSW). Last year, I felt so proud. It was one of my lifelong dreams to go to the UN. Growing up in Afghanistan seemed almost impossible, but I made it.
But this year, that pride was gone. I didn’t feel anything, because just a few months earlier, the same institution had invited the Taliban. The same people the UN claims to stand against. The same people the world claims to support us against. And they gave them a platform.
It was simply disgusting to me.
And now we are hearing reports that the Trump administration might re-engage in Afghanistan—possibly to regain control of Bagram Air Base—and may even collaborate with the Taliban. That feels deeply unsettling. I understand that a lot has happened in the world since the fall of Kabul—the war in Ukraine has captured much attention, and now there’s the ongoing crisis in the Middle East.
But at this point, it feels like the international community is trying to normalize what is happening in Afghanistan. And to be very frank with you, I think they are paving the way toward formal recognition of the Taliban—by normalizing them.
Jacobsen: It sounds like a marketing campaign for a failed product—presenting failure as if it were a success.
Dashti: Exactly.
Jacobsen: How do you balance personal aspirations in your new life with the responsibility of continuing your father’s legacy?
Dashti: My life changed drastically after my father passed away. I often tell people that I was spoiled as a teenager. I was the only daughter in the house, and of course, I was my dad’s favorite.
After my father passed away, I inherited not only his legacy but also the responsibility of supporting my entire family. My older brother and I have had to step up because our mother does not speak English. We are now responsible for providing for our family and continuing our father’s work.
Honestly, losing my father was deeply painful. But the person I have become because of that loss—the strength it gave me, the strength I discovered in myself, and the way I have continued his legacy—I believe he would have been proud of that.
Afghan women in Kabul in 2010.
Jacobsen: How do you view other humanitarian crises, particularly in light of the severity of the situation in Afghanistan?
Dashti: I believe that anywhere in the world where innocent people are being killed, tortured, or stripped of their basic human rights—whether it is in Ukraine, the Middle East, or elsewhere—it is wrong. Innocent people should never be casualties. They should never be harmed because political leaders play games or execute military agendas. So my position on that is very clear: no innocent human being—especially children—should suffer due to someone’s political or military objectives. That should never be acceptable.
Jacobsen: This year’s Commission on the Status of Women revisited the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action on its 30th anniversary; among other things, the text underscores women’s roles in peacekeeping and humanitarian relief. That framework envisions women not as auxiliaries but as central actors in peace processes and humanitarian operations.
Turning to Afghanistan, a clear-eyed reading suggests that the United States and its allies—largely Western and male-led—helped lay waste to the country over two decades of war, undertaken under expansive post-9/11 security claims and marked by grave intelligence and policy failures.
After the state collapsed, another male-dominated force—the Taliban—installed a rigid theocracy. Though adversaries, both camps consigned women and girls to the margins, leaving Afghan women to absorb the costs of external intervention and internal repression alike.
From your vantage point, what should the role of women be in humanitarian crises and in the defense of equal rights? And how should that role be understood when the pressures come from both outside military actors and authoritarian rulers at home?
Dashti: I think most reasonable people would agree: if you oppress half the population, your country is not going anywhere. That applies whether we are talking about the West or Afghanistan.
In Afghanistan, especially, I feel that Afghan women are constantly underestimated. Their strength and potential are overlooked—largely because, for decades, most Afghan women have been denied opportunities in education and careers.
But that does not mean we lack ability or willpower. On the contrary, Afghan women have consistently shown strength, resilience, and the ability to lead and build. We need the space and freedom to do so.
I mean, speaking as someone who lived in the city and had a relatively normal life, I cannot claim to fully understand the experience of a woman living in a rural area—someone who has been heavily oppressed. I always say I cannot speak to their reality.
But I see incredible strength and immense potential in Afghan women across the board. If they were given the opportunity, they could have built a society that, frankly, many men would not have been able to. I truly believe that.
As a feminist, I think many women today are afraid to call themselves feminists, unfortunately, because feminism has, in some cases, been misunderstood or misrepresented as a man-hating ideology. But at its core, feminism is about equality of opportunity, choice, and dignity.
And I would never judge another woman for not identifying as a feminist because the entire point of feminism is to ensure women have the freedom to choose. If a woman chooses not to identify as a feminist, that is her decision. I do not have the right to criticize her for that.
Still, I believe the core values of feminism should be woven into the fabric of any society—especially societies like Afghanistan. Afghan women possess strength, unlike anything I have seen in any other community.
I do not know if you have ever read him, but Giorgio Agamben, the Italian philosopher, wrote about what he calls the “state of exception.” He describes how modern states, often in the name of emergencies or security, dismantle a society’s legal and political framework.
And when that framework is dismantled, people are left exposed—vulnerable to violence, because they are stripped of their legal and political rights. I believe Afghanistan is in exactly that kind of state right now. The Taliban are actively dismantling our legal and political systems under the pretext of an emergency or a return to “order.”
I think Afghanistan is, again, in a “state of exception”—in the sense that Giorgio Agamben defines it. What people often do not realize is that feminism in a state like Afghanistan is fundamentally different from feminism in Western societies.
In Afghanistan, feminism is about challenging the regime itself—challenging the entire system. In contrast, in Western societies, feminism often focuses on securing rights within an existing and generally functioning state structure.
The fact that Afghan women are standing up to a regime as brutal and rigid as the Taliban is admirable. It should be globally recognized. And the fact that the international community is now attempting to normalize the situation in Afghanistan is heartbreaking.
Jacobsen: How can people get involved, donate, or volunteer their skills for the Fahim Dashti Foundation?
Dashti: The Dashti Foundation has been operational for over two years now. We have carried out several projects, including training programs for journalists in Afghanistan through online platforms. We have also hosted multiple events in collaboration with organizations such as the United Nations, with the support of several governments, including those of the Netherlands, Canada, and the United States.
Right now, we are focusing on larger, long-term initiatives. One project aims to offer scholarships to around 12 girls from Afghanistan, allowing them to pursue secondary education in neighbouring countries. We’re also working on a four-year strategic plan to support the Afghan community here in Canada.
Unfortunately, when Afghan professionals immigrate, finding jobs in their own field can be incredibly difficult. We are developing programs to provide training courses that align with Canadian journalism standards for Afghan journalists who were forced to flee. We aim to help them secure internships that can ultimately lead to full-time employment. This would help those individuals achieve self-sufficiency and benefit the broader Canadian society and economy.
We will need significant volunteer support and financial backing to make this happen. People can help by contributing their time, skills, or funds to the Fahim Dashti Foundation and our upcoming projects.
Jacobsen: Thank you very much for your time today.
Dashti: Of course.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): СокальINFO
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/05
Dr. Gail Dines is the founder and CEO of Culture Reframed, as well as a professor emerita of sociology and women’s studies at Wheelock College in Boston. Drawing on more than three decades of scholarship on the pornography industry, she is widely regarded as an authority on how porn shapes culture, sexuality, and social norms. She has advised government agencies in the United States and abroad—including in the United Kingdom, Norway, Iceland, and Canada—and in 2016 launched Culture Reframed, which develops education aimed at building resilience to porn’s harms.
Dines co-edited the best-selling textbook Gender, Race, and Class in Media and wrote Pornland: How Porn Has Hijacked Our Sexuality, translated into five languages and adapted into a documentary. Her work has appeared across major outlets such as ABC, CNN, BBC, MSNBC, The New York Times, Time, The Guardian, and Vogue. A regular presence on television and radio, she is also featured in documentary films, including The Price of Pleasure and The Strength to Resist.
In her research and public advocacy, Dines argues that decades of evidence show a strong association between pornography consumption and violence against women. She contends that mainstream porn cultivates harmful sexual attitudes, lowers empathy, and normalizes misogyny, racism, and sexual violence. Distinguishing a radical-feminist, harm-based critique from conservative moralism, she focuses on measurable social effects rather than questions of private morality.
According to Dines, porn distorts how men and women understand sex, relationships, and consent. She calls for comprehensive, “porn-resilient” education for young people and for broader social responsibility in addressing the industry’s outsized influence.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, I’m here with Professor Gail Dines, the founder of Culture Reframed. My first question, Gail: what is the connection between pornography and violence against women?
Gail Dines: We have over 40 years of empirical research from different disciplines that show that boys and men who consume pornography are more likely to engage in sexually aggressive behaviour, more likely to accept rape myths, more likely to develop harmful sexual attitudes toward women, and may experience increased anxiety, depression, and reduced empathy for victims of sexual violence. This happens because they are repeatedly exposed to depictions of sexual violence and objectification. Most mainstream Internet pornography today is hardcore—it’s cruel, brutal, and dehumanizing toward women.
As men and boys watch and become aroused by it, they internalize the ideologies embedded in these images. A key point about pornography is that it portrays women as always consenting, no matter how degrading or violent the act is. This gives the impression that women enjoy being mistreated, which is often far from the truth, as they may be coerced or paid to act in these scenes. This reinforces the harmful idea that it is acceptable to dehumanize and abuse women. We have substantial peer-reviewed research from fields such as psychology, sociology, and media studies that corroborates these findings.
Jacobsen: What research links pornography to sexual aggression?
Dines: Regarding the research linking pornography to sexual aggression, our website is a good resource. One in particular, titled “Understanding the Harms of Pornography,” lists many studies. Additionally, our academic library contains over 500 peer-reviewed articles on this topic. Scholars such as Paul Wright, Chyng Sun, and Jennifer Johnson have contributed important work. The strength of social science research is not in isolated studies but in the coherent pattern that emerges when we review a large body of work. The research shows a clear correlation between pornography consumption and violence against women.
Jacobsen: How does hypersexualized media align with human rights violations, particularly regarding youth?
Dines: Hypersexualized media, even content that isn’t classified as pornography, and pornography itself can be viewed as violations of civil rights because they infringe on young people’s ability to construct their sexuality. The multi-billion-dollar media and pornography industries are shaping the sexual attitudes and behaviours of young people worldwide, which strips them of their autonomy in this area. These industries commodify and monetize sexuality, taking control away from individuals and turning it into a product.
Young people deserve the opportunity to develop a sexuality that is meaningful to them, not one dictated by the interests of pornographers seeking profit. Additionally, there are significant human rights violations against women in pornography. The treatment many women endure in the production of hardcore pornography can be likened to torture, violating international human rights conventions. If the same acts were done to any other group, they would likely be recognized as torture. That’s how extreme much of mainstream pornography has become.
Jacobsen: What are the social and health consequences of pornography consumption?
Dines: Basically, pornography is shifting how we think about women, men, sex, relationships, connection, and consent—all of these issues. What you see in society is that when pornography becomes the “wallpaper” of your life, as it does for young people today, it becomes the main form of sex education. This shifts the norms and values of the culture, and it’s happening internationally. This is not a local problem. Any child with a device connected to the Internet is being fed a steady diet of misogyny and racism—there’s an incredible amount of racism in pornography—and the idea that men and boys have a right to ownership of women’s bodies, regardless of what women want. There’s also the notion that women’s bodies exist to be commodified and used however men wish. This sets up women and girls to be victims of male violence. Meanwhile, we are trying to build a world of equality between men and women.
Pornography shreds that possibility—not only in terms of sex but also in employment, the legal system, and more. It sends the message that women exist only to be penetrated, and often in the most vile and cruel ways possible. So, pornography undermines women’s rights across multiple levels and within multiple institutions.
Jacobsen: You raised an interesting point about the nature of consent. What is the framework of consent in pornographic imagery and in the industry itself?
Dines: First, let’s start with the imagery because the industry is slightly different. In the images, she consents to everything. The one word you rarely hear in pornography is “no.” It’s rare. If you go onto Pornhub or any other adult website, where most men and boys consume pornography, you won’t hear “no.” Now, there are some rape porn sites where the woman says “no,” but those are at the far end of the spectrum. I study mainstream pornography, such as what’s on Pornhub. In terms of consent, we often question whether a woman truly consents; this is where the industry comes in. While they might sign a consent form, we don’t know under what conditions it was signed.
Also, pornography is where racism, sexism, capitalism, and colonialism intersect. The poorer a woman is, the more likely she is to be a woman of colour with fewer resources, and the more likely she is to end up in the porn industry. These are not Ivy League graduates lining up to do this. These are women who have had few choices. When you have limited options in life, especially due to economic hardship, it is challenging to argue that consent is fully informed or voluntary.
Jacobsen: For those able to exit the industry, what are the ways they manage to do so, and what are the psychological and emotional impacts, as well as the physical effects?
Dines: It’s extremely hard for women to leave pornography. First of all, we know that women in pornography experience the same levels of post-traumatic stress disorder as prostituted women. Many of them are also under pimp control. The psychological, emotional, and physical tolls are severe, making it difficult for them to leave the industry.
And also, where are they going to go? Especially in pornography, where your image is everywhere, women who have been in the industry, even if they get out, live in constant fear that their employers, children, and partners will find their content online. The issue becomes extremely difficult. You never really escape pornography once you’ve been part of it. Even if you leave the industry, you’re never fully out of it because your image remains online. It can take many years to recover emotionally and physically.
Many women endure severe physical harm—STIs and injuries to the anus, vagina, and mouth due to the hardcore nature of the acts. What’s interesting is that, in the case of prostitution and trafficking, there are many survivor-led groups helping women exit the industry. This support isn’t as prevalent for women in pornography, and the reason is that these women feel so exposed. They feel vulnerable even after leaving the industry because their images remain there.
Remember, an image on Pornhub can go viral, spreading across all the porn sites, so you never know who has seen it. You never know if the person you meet has seen it, which creates a constant feeling of vulnerability.
Jacobsen: You made an important distinction between liberal feminism and radical feminism. Can you clarify that distinction about pornography?
Dines: Yes. The critical distinction is in the ideological framing. Radical feminists were among the first to highlight the violence of pornography—both in terms of the harm to women in the industry and the impact on women in society. Radical feminism grew out of a focus on violence against women. Over time, they recognized that pornography is part of that violence.
Liberal feminism, on the other hand, tends to be more neoliberal, emphasizing individualism. The argument often centers around the idea that “she chose it,” that it’s about sexual agency. But what we know about these women is that this is not a true sexual agency. If anything, it strips them of their sexual agency and does the same to all women. Women often look at pornography to see what they should be doing for the men who consume it. Radical feminists are anti-pornography because they see both its production and consumption as a major form of violence against women, and they understand that it contributes to real-world violence as well.
Jacobsen: What are the industry’s tactics, and how do they compare to those of the tobacco industry?
Dines: The pornography industry employs tactics similar to the tobacco industry, such as bringing in pseudo-academics to argue that there’s no harm, framing research in ways that downplay the issues, and lobbying. The pornography industry has a powerful lobbying arm, much like the tobacco industry did. They know the harm their product causes, but they’re not interested in liberating women from harm—they’re in it to make money.
And so, all predatory industries will do whatever it takes to make money, irrespective of the incredible social impact it will have. The United States is known for not having as strong a FACTED (Family Life and Sexual Health Education) program as Canada. However, Canada, at its best, still has its gaps.
Jacobsen: So, how does pornography act, as you mentioned earlier, as a filler for sex education and a particularly poor one for young people, and potentially for older people?
Dines: Let’s focus on younger people. Developing an interest in sex is a natural part of development, often starting from puberty. But because we don’t have good sex education, the content is outdated and doesn’t speak to the reality that kids live in today. So, where are kids going to turn when they have access to devices and a vast amount of free pornography? Pornography fills that gap, but poorly.
What is needed, and what Culture Reframed provides, is a porn-critical sex education curriculum. If you visit our website, we have a program for high school teachers (and some middle school teachers), which includes PowerPoints and detailed instructions on how to teach it. We don’t show pornography, obviously, but we focus on building porn-resilient young people. Unfortunately, in many cases, sex education isn’t prioritized, and many sex ed teachers aren’t even specialized in the subject.
They might be math or physical education teachers, told a month before, “You’re teaching sex ed.” We frequently hear from people who are unprepared and have no idea where to start. Interestingly, studies show that students immediately pick up on this lack of expertise. Research indicates that students are aware that their sex ed teachers don’t know how to teach the subject, don’t want to do it, and aren’t addressing issues relevant to their lives. As a result, sex education has effectively been handed over to pornographers.
Jacobsen: A question comes to mind. We’ve discussed liberal feminism versus radical feminism in framing the issue. But within radical feminist discourse, are there any internal objections or disagreements on this critical view of pornography?
Dines: Radical feminism tends to agree widely on this topic. Are you asking about internal conflicts?
Jacobsen: Yes, specifically within radical feminism.
Dines: Any disagreements are quite minor, mostly centered on how to define the issue or address it. But there’s a strong, unified belief within radical feminism that pornography is violence against women, both in its production and consumption. We have major arguments with liberal feminists, Marxist feminists, and socialist feminists. We don’t tend to have many internal debates about pornography within radical feminism. However, we do have disagreements on other topics.
Jacobsen: There may be surface-level critiques from traditionalist, conservative, or religious groups that object to pornography on moral grounds, often based on a transcendentalist or ethical view of sin. Yet, they seem to reach a similar conclusion as you do.
Dines: Yes, but the conclusions, although they may appear similar, are quite different. Right-wing moralists are often concerned with what pornography does to the family, particularly how it affects men. They argue that it may cause men to stray or damage family cohesion. Radical feminists, on the other hand, have a critique of the family as the place where women are most at risk, as we know from the evidence. We are concerned with the harm to women, children, and society in general, but our stance is not based on moralism.
We refer to this as a harm-based issue, not a morality-based issue. That’s not to say some right-wing organizations don’t adopt some of our arguments—they do—but the core driving force behind our opposition to pornography is different. They oppose it from a moral perspective; we oppose it because of the real harm it inflicts on individuals and society.
Jacobsen: What would a healthy societal view of sexuality and sex education look like?
Dines: Much of what we’ve built on Culture Reframed is what that should look like, to be honest. A healthy view of sexuality begins with the individual owning their sexuality. It evolves naturally as a person grows. Of course, it’s rooted in equality, consent, non-violence, and genuine connection and intimacy.
This doesn’t mean that sex is only for marriage or long-term relationships, but that there is some level of connection and intimacy involved. That’s what makes sex meaningful in the end. If you don’t know the person you’re having sex with, as is often the case in pornography, you become desensitized. That’s why the industry constantly escalates the content.
If you were to film regular people having sex, most of the time, it would be so dull that you’d fall asleep watching it. The fun and excitement come from actually having sex, not watching it. So, for pornography to hold viewers’ interest, they have to keep ramping up the adrenaline through more intense and bizarre acts.
Jacobsen: Is part of the core issue the dehumanization and depersonalization that comes with pornography? It seems like there’s a disconnection—people go to their computers, consume pornography, and then return to their regular lives as if nothing happened. It’s like their day becomes fragmented and disjointed.
Dines: Absolutely. That’s a great point. There have been studies done on this. One interesting study showed two groups of men: one group watched a regular National Geographic movie, while the other watched pornography. Afterward, they were asked to interview a female candidate for a job, and the chairs were on rollers. The men who had watched pornography kept rolling their chairs closer and closer to the woman. They also found that these men couldn’t remember the woman’s words.
This kind of behaviour shows how pornography impacts the perception of others, particularly women, and how it disrupts their ability to interact meaningfully in real-life situations.
So you’re right. When you think about it, much pornography is consumed at work. Then you leave that cruel world where men are depicted as having every right to women’s bodies and go back to working in a world with women where you don’t have those rights. It’s interesting because we have the #MeToo movement on the one hand, which is crucial for explaining what’s going on. On the other hand, pornography is working against everything the #MeToo movement is trying to say about consent and women’s bodily integrity. Even men’s bodily integrity is compromised in pornography—nobody has bodily integrity.
In pornography, the body is there to be used in any way possible to heighten sexual arousal, usually involving high levels of violence. I haven’t seen many films where this wasn’t the case.
Jacobsen: We’ve already covered building porn resilience in children, or at least how important it is. How far do gender inequality and sexual violence reflect each other in women’s rights movements, particularly within the frame of pornography?
Dines: Let me make sure I understand. You’re asking about the relationship between gender inequality and sexual violence and how this plays out in the context of movements like #MeToo, correct?
Jacobsen: Yes.
Dines: I addressed some of this earlier when I talked about equality in other areas of life and how pornography undermines it. Gender inequality and sexual violence are deeply intertwined. If there were no gender inequality, sexual violence would be unthinkable. Sexual violence is typically used to destroy and control women and to show power and dominance. That’s why we must call it “sexual violence”—because it weaponizes sex against women.
Without gender inequality, this kind of violence wouldn’t even be conceivable. It’s built into the very structure of gender inequality, and in turn, it perpetuates and exacerbates that inequality. It’s a vicious cycle. Gender inequality fuels sexual violence, and sexual violence deepens gender inequality.
Jacobsen: Just to be mindful of that, then. We talked about the psychological impact earlier. What are the similar psychological impacts on boys and girls, rather than the differences?
Dines: Similarities around what, specifically?
Jacobsen: In terms of pornography consumption and its impacts.
Dines: We know very little about girls. There aren’t many studies at all on girls’ exposure to pornography, and, as in many areas, girls and women are often under-researched. One of the few studies by Chyng Sun, Jennifer Johnson, Anna Bridges, and Matt Ezzell does show a few things. Some girls and women go to porn not to masturbate but to see what boys and men are doing, so they can reproduce that behaviour.
They also found that girls and women who become addicted to pornography, similar to men, lose interest in real-world sex, preferring pornography. They become isolated and depressed. So, if they do go down the route of addiction, the impact is quite similar to that on men, except they don’t become violent.
Jacobsen: What are the key points of feminist and anti-pornography activism, particularly in your book Pornland, intersecting with issues of gender, sexuality, and human rights?
Dines: That’s what the whole book is about. Pornland was written to explain the modern-day pornography industry in the age of the internet. People were talking about pornography as if the Internet hadn’t happened. I take a radical feminist perspective, using research to back up the claims and focus on how pornography undermines women’s human rights.
There are chapters addressing racism, showing how women of colour are especially targeted, both for their race and gender. I also discuss how mainstream sites are increasingly making use of images of young-looking women—sometimes they could be children, it’s hard to tell. So, they might be underage or made to look underage.
The main argument is that we live in a world that is completely inundated and infested with pornography. As a sociologist, I’m interested in the sociological impact. I borrow from psychological literature but focus on the macro level. How is pornography not just shifting gender norms but cementing the worst aspects of them? It hasn’t invented misogyny, but it has given it a new twist and continues to reinforce it across various institutions.
Jacobsen: Gail, any final thoughts or feelings based on our conversation today?
Dines: We’ve buried our heads in the sand for too long. For people who weren’t born into the internet age, it’s hard to understand just how much pornography is shaping young people. There’s been a massive dereliction of duty on the part of adults in helping kids navigate this world they’ve been thrown into, often left to sink or swim on their own—and many are sinking. The kids I talk to feel overwhelmed by pornography, and studies back this up. Many wish there were far less of it because they recognize the adverse effect it has on their sexuality, their connections, and their relationships.
So, it’s time we step up and take responsibility as adults.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Gail.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): СокальINFO
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/08/24
Thomas Homer-Dixon, one of the world’s foremost social scientists, has spent his career probing the forces that push societies toward crisis and collapse. As director of the Cascade Institute, a Canadian research center dedicated to understanding and mitigating global threats, he applies the lens of complexity science to phenomena such as climate change, economic instability, and political polarization. His work examines how seemingly small shifts in complex systems can unleash outsized consequences, eroding resilience and accelerating humanity’s precarious trajectory.
Homer-Dixon has written extensively on the destabilizing effects of rising authoritarianism, from Donald Trump’s radical influence to the ways artificial intelligence deepens epistemic fragmentation. He has also explored the unsettling possibility that intelligence itself may carry the seeds of self-destruction—yet he remains committed to identifying pathways toward a sustainable future. His research combines scientific rigor with a willingness to engage big, unsettling questions, whether drawing on the Drake Equation or the Peter Principle to illuminate the paradoxes of human progress.
An accomplished author and public intellectual, Homer-Dixon’s work has appeared widely, from academic journals to The Globe and Mail. His insights bridge science, politics, and leadership, offering frameworks for navigating the complex crises of our time. The Guardian has praised him as “one of the most informed and brilliant writers on global affairs today.”
(Open Canada)
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: I’m grateful you could join me today—it means a lot. To start us off, how can complexity science help us make sense of immense global challenges like man-made climate change and widespread economic instability, and what tools does it give us to confront them more effectively?
Thomas Homer-Dixon: Right, you’re getting straight to the point. That’s a terrific question.
As most people do, I came to complex systems science somewhat indirectly. However, within my discipline—political science, conflict studies, and international relations—the conventional ways of thinking about causation didn’t help me untangle what was happening in my study areas. They didn’t adequately explain the underlying causal dynamics.
Over about 15 years, I transitioned into complexity science and developed a much clearer understanding.
At its core, complexity science helps us understand non-linear phenomena—situations where relatively small changes in a system, whether in an economy, climate, geopolitical structure, or ecological system, can lead to significant and sometimes unexpected consequences. Conversely, it also helps us understand why, in some cases, considerable interventions appear to have little or no impact.
The proportionality of the relationship between cause and effect in complex systems breaks down. In our everyday world, we think of small changes causing minor effects, small causes having minor effects, and significant modifications producing significant effects. So, there’s a proportionality.
But in complex systems, that breaks down. This means that complex systems—again, we’re talking about everything from ecologies to economies to the climate system to even the way the human brain works—have the capacity to flip from one state to another, from one equilibrium or stability zone to another, often in quite unpredictable ways.
The business of complexity science is identifying the various possible stability zones, what configuration of an economy or a political system will be stable, and what factors can reduce that stability and cause it to flip to another state.
To give a contemporary example, we’ve just seen a flip in the United States political system—a reconfiguration—from one equilibrium to something else yet to be determined. Mr. Trump generates enormous uncertainty, so the nature of that new equilibrium isn’t entirely clear yet. We have some ideas, but that is a classic example of non-linearity.
In an ecological system, a non-linearity would be something like the cod fishery collapse off the east coast of Canada in the late 1980s and early 1990s. That was one of the most productive ecosystems in the world, and it has wholly reconfigured itself. It will never return to its previous level of productivity, which was incredibly abundant in biomass production.
The 2008–2009 financial crisis was another example of non-linearity. Complexity science aims to identify the factors that produce these sudden changes—these flips—and anticipate them. However, the other side of this work is that once we understand those connections and causal relationships better, we may be able to induce changes in a positive direction.
We might be able to cause positive flips—positive in a value sense—good flips instead of bad ones. At the Cascade Institute, we divide our work into two areas. One focuses on anticipating pernicious cascades or harmful non-linearities, and the other on triggering virtuous cascades that benefit humankind. We then drill down in these areas to identify threats and opportunities using complexity science.
Jacobsen: Around the world, ideological polarization seems to be intensifying, not only in the United States during the Trump years but across a range of societies. Complexity science suggests that when several tipping points are reached—whether all at once or in succession—they can unleash powerful non-linear effects. Do you see today’s deepening polarization as one of those moments, where competing ideologies could drive us into a new wave of unpredictable, destabilizing dynamics beyond the recent election?
Homer-Dixon: Yes. So, part of the framing of complexity science—and it’s almost inherent in complexity itself—is the recognition that a lot is happening. Within conventional social science, or even conventional science, there’s a strong emphasis on parsimony—identifying relatively straightforward relationships between causes and effects.
Within complexity science, there’s less emphasis on parsimony. There’s an initial recognition that the world is complex, with numerous factors operating and interacting in ways that are, at least at first, difficult to understand. You won’t develop a good understanding by focusing on single variables or isolated factors. You have to examine multiple elements simultaneously. That is the foundation of all complex systems work.
Frankly, that’s what initially attracted me to complexity science. I was grappling with the broader issue of the relationship between environmental stress and violent conflict. As I studied factors like water scarcity, forest degradation, and soil depletion—and how they interacted with conflict—it became clear that multiple causal pathways were involved. Many interconnected factors had to be taken into account. So, I needed a different framework rather than a simplistic approach that looked at single causes and effects.
That’s the background. Now, you can find more details on polarization on the Cascade Institute website. We have developed a set of hypotheses about the factors driving social polarization and deepening social divisions—factors that are far more complex than standard analyses suggest. We use a four-pathway model to explain polarization. The first pathway consists of economic factors—rising inequality and economic precarity- fueling polarization.
The second pathway involves social and managerial factors, precisely the decreasing capacity of societies to address complex problems. Our technocratic elites and experts are increasingly perceived as incompetent in handling crises, whether related to healthcare, climate change, or managing the pandemic. This leads to a delegitimization of expertise and expert governance—a growing rejection of specialists and institutions.
The third pathway is connected to our information ecosystem—social media, information overload, and how these influence communication. These dynamics amplify emotional negativity, making people more inclined to engage only with those who share their views rather than those who think differently.
The fourth pathway is more fundamental: epistemic fragmentation. People increasingly live in their knowledge bubbles, developing their versions of reality and dismissing alternative perspectives on truth. This fragmentation fuels a breakdown in shared understanding.
We have four distinct pathways and are studying how they interact. These interactions can create precisely what you suggest—tipping points in people’s attitudes.
However, these four pathways can be considered underlying stresses in our social systems. Over time, these economic, managerial, cognitive, informational, and epistemic factors make our social systems less resilient. They make people angrier, more afraid, and more distrustful of institutions.
Many of these changes can occur gradually, but then suddenly, you get a significant event—like the political shift in the United States—where the institutional arrangement of an election triggers a system-wide flip.
The best way to think about these polarization processes is that they have drained resilience from our social systems, making them more vulnerable to abrupt shifts that ultimately harm people. In this case, the flip was an institutional one. However, the long-term changes in people’s attitudes, ideologies, and belief systems haven’t been so much a flip as a gradual erosion of resilience.
That erosion manifests in institutions where a radical right-wing regime comes into power in the United States. This is a clear example of non-linearity—where long-term trends, or stresses, accumulate relatively linearly over time, much like tectonic pressure before an earthquake. Once they reach a certain threshold—bang—you get the quake, and the system flips to another state. In this case, that flip was a shift in control of federal institutions in the United States.
Jacobsen: Let me put this in two parts. First, do you think President Trump will go down as one of the most consequential presidents in American history? Second, there’s now a massive nine-figure investment on the table for artificial intelligence.
AI has moved well past being just a trendy buzzword—it’s become a driving force for high-tech firms, major investors, software development, and breakthrough innovation. Do you see these areas steering the development of AI, or is it more accurate to say that AI will end up reshaping them instead?
Homer-Dixon: Yes, 100%. These are related but distinct questions. Let’s talk about Trump first.
The answer is clearly yes—he is already one of the most consequential presidents in American history, alongside Lincoln and Washington. In a recent piece in The Globe and Mail, I argued that he would also be one of the most consequential figures in human history, and I laid out the reasons for that.
One reason is that he is one of the most influential individuals in the world—perhaps alongside Elon Musk. However, he and many people around him are profoundly ignorant of how global and national systems function, even at a basic level.
For example, he doesn’t understand how tariffs work or their economic consequences. That ignorance is deeply consequential because there will be moments when deep system knowledge and strategic intelligence are needed to navigate an acute crisis.
I often point to John F. Kennedy during the Cuban Missile Crisis as an example. He surrounded himself with top experts, forming what he called ExComm, the Executive Committee of the National Security Council, to carefully think through the U.S. response to the Soviet placement of nuclear-capable missiles in Cuba.
I can’t imagine Trump doing anything remotely similar. He has surrounded himself with individuals who are radically ill-equipped to manage the complex systems they now control.
They have their hands on the levers of these systems, yet they are radically ill-equipped to know how to position those levers effectively. So, that’s point one.
Point two is that Trump’s relationship with his followers drives him in a more radical direction. I won’t go into all the details, but if he fails to implement his agenda, he will become more radical, not less. He will seek out more enemies, attempt to attack them, and crush and destroy both perceived enemies within the United States and those outside it.
Point three is that multiple global systems—climate, geopolitical structures, and more—are already highly stressed and near tipping points. Trump could push them past those thresholds in various ways. One prominent example is climate change. He is actively rolling back climate action.
Essentially, his policies amount to humankind giving up on addressing the climate crisis. That alone could change the trajectory of human history and civilization.
If he escalates tensions into a nuclear conflict, which his actions significantly increase the risk of, that too would mark a defining inflection point for humankind. So, when you take these three factors together—his radicalization, the fragility of global systems, and the existential risks he exacerbates—Trump is among the most consequential figures in human history.
That’s a controversial position, but it was interesting to see the response to my article, published three days before his inauguration; three weeks later, people are already reassessing and saying, “No, that view wasn’t exaggerated.”
Now, on artificial intelligence, which is equally relevant, AI dramatically accelerates what we call epistemic fragmentation. It enables the creation of multiple contradictory realities and allows for the substantiation of false narratives. People can manufacture evidence at will using AI, making it difficult—if not impossible—to discern whether information has any real-world grounding.
This is all part of the more significant shift toward anti-realism. Increasingly, people live in massively multiplayer game-like realities, and AI enhances the ability to generate convincing but completely false realities. Worse, these fabricated narratives can be weaponized against groups or political opponents.
So, regarding your point on AI, I am deeply concerned. I have been in contact with many experts who are central to this debate and the development of AI itself. One of the fundamental issues with our world today is that we don’t know. Due to the inherent complexity of our systems, we are witnessing an explosion in possible futures.
Take, for example, DeepSeek, a breakthrough that dramatically changed AI energy consumption estimates overnight. We previously assumed AI required massive energy and material inputs into server farms, but suddenly, DeepSea cut those estimates by 90%.
Yet, despite these developments, we don’t fully understand the pathways AI will take. There are still enormous unknowns across technological, political, and social dimensions. This uncertainty offers some potential for hope. Within that very uncertainty, there will be positive outcomes—opportunities we can’t see yet, even from AI.
However, I am profoundly concerned about AI’s ability to exacerbate epistemic fragmentation, further entrenching the creation of multiple conflicting realities. These alternative realities will not only shape the way people see the world but will also be weaponized against one another. AI is likely to worsen polarization rather than help us overcome it.
Jacobsen: Your comments call to mind the perspectives of two intellectual figures who represent strikingly different traditions of thought—Margaret Atwood, the Canadian novelist, and Noam Chomsky, the American linguist. Each has reflected on the relationship between ignorance and intelligence, and Atwood once distilled her view with a stark observation: “Stupidity is the same as evil if you judge by the results.”
Homer-Dixon: That’s very good. That’s true.
Jacobsen: I’ve been thinking about the points you’ve made so far, and they bring me back to a question that Chomsky once raised—though it actually traces to Ernst Mayr. He suggested that “intelligence is a kind of lethal mutation.” It’s an unsettling thought when you consider that beetles and bacteria are thriving quite well without it. So when we look at AI and its implications, the question still lingers: could intelligence itself prove to be a lethal mutation?
Homer-Dixon: Yes, we are modifying our environment to such an extent that we may ultimately cause extinction. You’ve encountered this in your discussions—the famous estimate regarding the longevity of intelligent life in the universe, which is embedded in the Drake Equation.
Frank Drake was the head of SETI—the Search for Extraterrestrial Intelligence. I once visited the SETI offices in the Bay Area. At least at one point, Drake had a custom license plate that read something like “IL = L,” “Intelligent Life = Longevity.”
In his equation, Drake included a series of factors that could contribute to the development of life: the size of planets, their distance from their stars, whether water exists on Earth, and other standard variables.
But the final factor, L, stood for longevity—essentially, the question of whether intelligent life would survive long enough to reach a stable and enduring state. That factor dominated everything else for him because intelligence might ultimately destroy itself.
I don’t think they are.
Human beings—and this is where I have a soft spot for accelerationism, people like Thiel and Musk—are extraordinarily creative, especially in moments of crisis and extreme stress. Things don’t look real right now, particularly existential problems like climate change.
The Peter Principle by Laurence J. Peter and Raymond Hull was published in 1969.
The basic idea is that within bureaucracies and organizations, people get promoted to their level of incompetence—they rise until they reach a position where they can no longer do their job effectively, and then they stop advancing.
What we may be witnessing with problems like climate change is that humanity has reached its level of incompetence. We have solved everything up to this point. Still, eventually, we will face a challenge too complex to overcome.
It’s an open question.
I’m not prepared to count humankind out yet. I have two kids—one is 19, the other 16—and they are very worried. But I keep returning to this: the world is so complex that we don’t know its game.
There may be an explosion of possibilities, but we can’t see the adjacent possible. These could be technological, institutional, ideological, or belief-system shifts. We don’t know. That is precisely why the Cascade Institute exists. We are trying to identify those possibilities and which ones can be leveraged.
Jacobsen: Thank you very much for your time. I appreciate it. It was nice to meet you.
Homer-Dixon: Great questions.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
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Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/08/19
Alexander Hinton is a distinguished professor of anthropology at Rutgers University and director of the Center for the Study of Genocide and Human Rights. A UNESCO Chair on Genocide Prevention, he is a leading scholar of political violence, white nationalism, and atrocity crimes.
In It Can Happen Here, Hinton traces the continuity of white power movements in the United States and situates them in global patterns. He shows how grievance, demagogic rhetoric, and social-media ecosystems mobilize fear, draws resonances with Nazi propaganda and other extremist ideologies, and warns of democratic backsliding. His earlier book, Why Did They Kill? Cambodia in the Shadow of Genocide probes the historical roots of extremism and structural racism.
Hinton earned his Ph.D. from Emory University in 1997 and lectures internationally. Professor Hinton, thanks for joining us today.
(FORSEA)
Alexander Hinton: Thank you so much. It’s a pleasure to meet you as well.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When you map the evolution of white nationalism in the United States, what through-lines stand out? Today it sits at the center of cultural and political debate, even though it hasn’t always been named as such.
Hinton: Yes. The context depends on where we are in the world, as historical connections and interactions exist. One example is Nazi Germany, where ideas moved back and forth, influencing white supremacist ideology.
More recently, in relation to my book It Can Happen Here, I testified at the Khmer Rouge Tribunal in Cambodia. This UN-backed hybrid tribunal consists of both UN and Cambodian personnel. I testified there in 2016, around the same time that Donald Trump, then a presidential candidate, was running for office. Much of his rhetoric echoed themes I write and teach about.
I am not suggesting that Trump was comparable to Pol Pot or Hitler in any way. However, his rhetoric—including dehumanization, references to enemy invaders, and discussions of migrant caravans—is part of a historical pattern. These narratives frequently appear in contexts of mass violence, genocide, and atrocity crimes. Recognizing this, I thought, “This is something to watch closely.”
At the same time, many people were making the false equivalence of claiming that “Trump is Hitler.” At one point, this was a viral meme while I was testifying. These discussions were circulating widely, and I was already working on a book about my experiences at the tribunal, which later became Anthropological Witness.
Of course, Trump won the election. We entered what I refer to as Trump 1.0, followed by events such as Charlottesville and the Unite the Right rally in 2017. That rally was a turning point in public perception. Richard Spencer’s “Heil Trump” salute was widely seen, and people began to recognize that elements of the white power movement had gained visibility within his support base.
During Trump 1.0, most of his supporters tended to be older, white, religious, and less formally educated. It is always important to specify formal education because education exists in different forms, but this was a demographic where he had substantial support.
He also received backing from figures such as David Duke, though it is crucial to clarify that this was not the core of his support. However, the white nationalist element was present. This became undeniable in Charlottesville, where marchers chanted, “Jews will not replace us” and “You will not replace us.”
These streets—whose streets? Our streets. But the discourse of “Jews will not replace us” caught everyone’s attention at the time. It was a while back.
Some people may not even know about it at this point. Still, it was certainly an international event as well as a domestic one. A series of white power shootings then followed that.
We had Robert Bowers and the Tree of Life synagogue attack. We had the Walmart shooting in El Paso. There was one in Southern California. Moving forward into the present, we had the Buffalo Tops shooting. Suddenly, there were multiple attacks. Bowers’ shooting at the Tree of Life synagogue, in particular, drew much attention.
So, I decided to take a deep dive into my book, It Can Happen Here, which argued that what many saw as a spectacular aberration—embodied by Trump 1.0 and Donald Trump—was, in fact, not at all discontinuous with U.S. history. I don’t go into this in great detail, but obviously, it also ties into global history.
The first part of the book traces the history of white power in the U.S., going back to the founding of the country and, moving forward, examining how systemic white supremacy has operated.
Later, I wrote an article discussing one way to conceptualize this history: through the lens of micro-totalitarianism. This framework helps capture the reality that while the U.S. has functioned as a democracy for a significant portion of its population, within that same system, there have been people who have lived under conditions resembling totalitarian rule.
For example, enslaved peoples—and later, Black Americans during Jim Crow—experienced a level of control over their lives that mirrored regimes like the Khmer Rouge in Cambodia. The state and local authorities exercised overwhelming power over what individuals could say, do, think, and learn.
The book’s argument is that it can happen here. It has happened here. Can it happen again?
Of course, it can happen again.
If you think about it, only in the 1960s did the U.S. begin to break away from predominantly white power structures. Of course, the U.S. is not a monolith—there is a great deal of variation within it. However, the civil rights movement ruptured this historical pattern. Ironically, some gains from that era are now under attack in the U.S.
The vast majority of U.S. history has been characterized by white power and white supremacy. If you visualize it on a timeline stretching from Jamestown in the early 1600s to the present, the overwhelming portion of that history consists of enslavement, the dispossession of Native American peoples, and systemic racial injustice.
I emphasize that acknowledging history means looking within ourselves. All of us have good aspects and flawed aspects. The U.S. has achieved many great things, but there is also a shadow side.
To invoke Carl Jung, we all have a shadow, and nations do as well. One of the most disconcerting and bizarre arguments I’ve encountered is that we should ignore or avoid engaging with this side of history. However, just as an individual’s healthy growth requires acknowledging their strengths and flaws, nations must do the same to move forward.
This debate continues to play out in the U.S. today.
It was interesting, coincidentally, to see Elon Musk recently argue that Germany should forget about the past. The argument that people should not feel guilty or personally responsible as a major part of their lives makes sense. However, the idea that we should ignore the fact that certain groups have been dispossessed—while attempting to remedy past abuses without placing blame—is more complicated.
In the U.S., much of this has played out with younger white male voters. That is a longer discussion. But ultimately, we have to confront the shadow side of history. To answer your question, yes, this has been a reality in the U.S. for most of its history. While some aspects remain interwoven with society today, things are much better than 40 or 50 years ago.
Trump is not an exception. He is certainly spectacular because he knows how to control a crowd and command attention. However, what he represents is not a break from U.S. history—it is continuous with it.
Member of the Proud Boys protesting in North Carolina. (Anthony Crider)
Jacobsen: In your view, how does political rhetoric—the themes you’ve outlined—work to legitimize white-nationalist movements and animate what you call their Jungian “shadow sides,” bringing once-fringe ideas into mainstream conversation?
Hinton: Yes, that is an interesting question. Of course, this is obvious, but it bears repeating: the advent of social media and global interconnection has amplified and accelerated ideas that existed long before.
White power groups were among the first users of the Internet, and many people are unaware of this. They made global connections early on and were well-positioned by the time we entered the smartphone era, starting with the iPhone in 2007, which brought massive changes.
The reason I mention this is that we now have different ideological “bubbles”—though “silos” might be a more accurate term—where communities gather and reinforce one another’s views. One well-known example is 4chan, a notorious hub for white power extremists.
These groups develop their own coded language and references, and we often see ideas move from these underground spaces into mainstream discourse. A clear example is how language from platforms like 4chan, Telegram, and Gab gradually surfaced on larger platforms such as Facebook and X (formerly Twitter).
For instance, during the last election cycle, there was a JD Vance “pedophiles” trope that emerged. That narrative originated in extremist circles on 4chan and Telegram before surfacing in public demonstrations—such as marches in Springfield—where it gained visibility. Eventually, it bubbled up into mainstream conservative discourse, reaching figures like JD Vance himself.
This phenomenon is tied to a broader strategy within far-right and white power extremist circles: shifting the Overton Window. The Overton Window refers to the ideas considered acceptable in mainstream discourse. Over time, what was once considered fringe or extremist can become normalized through repeated exposure.
Much of the rhetoric that is now common in political discourse—including on platforms like X—was once confined to far-right extremist spaces. Elon Musk, for example, frequently tweets narratives that align with these ideas.
Take the concept of the “Great Replacement.” It has been phrased in different ways, but at its core, it suggests that non-white immigrants are intentionally replacing white Christians in the U.S. There is a factual element in the sense that demographics in the U.S. are changing, and the white population is projected to lose its majority in the next 20 to 30 years.
However, in extremist circles, this demographic shift is framed as intentional—as if there is a coordinated effort behind it. That naturally leads to the question: Who is orchestrating this?
At the mainstream conservative level, the answer tends to be “Democrats.” But within white power extremist discourse—going back to Charlottesville and earlier—the belief is that Jews are orchestrating it.
Everything ties into the belief that there is a plot to subvert white power and ultimately destroy white people. This brings us to the idea of white genocide, which predates much of the recent discourse.
In 2015, during the European immigration crisis, we began to see the widespread circulation of replacement theory narratives. This rhetoric was later imported into the U.S. Still, the underlying trope had been there long before in the form of the white genocide theory.
By the time we get to Robert Bowers, the perpetrator of the Tree of Life synagogue shooting, he has fully embraced this ideology. His motivation was the belief that Jews were helping immigrants “pour into” the U.S. That was his key justification.
On his Gab homepage—a far-right extremist platform with strong Christian nationalist leanings—Bowers had several disturbing elements. Among them was an image of a radar gun, which prominently displayed the number 1488.
At first, this number might seem odd, but once you examine its symbolism, a pattern emerges. 1488 is a combination of two elements: 14 Words – A white supremacist slogan coined by David Lane, a member of The Order, a white nationalist terrorist group from the 1980s. 88 – A reference to “Heil Hitler” (H being the eighth letter of the alphabet).
The Turner Diaries deeply influenced the Order itself. This novel has been called the “bible” of white supremacy. The book tells the story of white people rising against what they see as an existential threat, forming a group called The Order to eliminate non-whites and so-called “race traitors.”
This novel inspired real-world actions. The actual Order, a violent extremist group, emerged in the 1980s, robbing banks and engaging in other criminal activities to fund their white nationalist cause. There was even a film adaptation of The Turner Diaries released at the end of 2024.
David Lane, one of The Order’s members, was arrested and imprisoned, where he later wrote the White Genocide Manifesto. In this document, he ends with 14 Words, which I will not repeat here, but the essence is a call to protect white children from what he describes as a nefarious plot to wipe out the white race.
So, when Bowers displayed 1488 on his Gab profile, he was signalling deep ideological alignment with this extremist lineage. This illustrates the connection between extremism and political discourse.
What has happened in recent years—intentionally—is that far-right groups have sought to mainstream these ideas. This includes groups one step removed from the “hard” far-right, such as the so-called alt-right, which gained visibility during the Charlottesville rally.
The alt-right has heavily promoted the idea of metapolitics, which argues that the battle is not fought through physical violence but through the control of hearts and minds. This is where cultural narratives come into play.
A major talking point within these circles is cultural Marxism. This conspiracy theory claims that Jewish intellectuals from the Frankfurt School came to the U.S. with the intent of brainwashing the population. This theory, like many far-right narratives, often ties back to anti-Semitic tropes about Jews orchestrating societal change.
The goal of these extremists is to shift the Overton Window—the range of socially acceptable discourse—by normalizing once-fringe ideas.
This tactic has been highly effective. Using humour, irony, and gradual exposure, ideas once confined to extremist circles have entered the mainstream discussion.
For example, replacement theory, which was once framed explicitly as white genocide, has now been repackaged and is widely discussed. The core idea remains the same, but the language has been adapted to make it more palatable for broader audiences.
I can go to Telegram right now and find videos of far-right extremist groups protesting immigrants in hotels. There is one group, in particular, I am thinking of that carries signs explicitly referencing “replacement.”
At the same time, this rhetoric appears at the highest levels of government. JD Vance, for example, has alluded to the idea of “Haitian immigrant invaders.” He did not explicitly use the term “replacement.” Still, his language framed these immigrants as savages—suggesting that they eat pets, that they do not understand American customs, and that they do not belong. The implication was clear: they are not fully human.
We have seen this kind of rhetoric before and know where it leads. While Vance himself may not have made direct connections to white nationalist narratives, far-right extremist groups certainly did. They took his remarks and amplified them within their communities.
This is part of a broader strategy. By shifting the Overton Window, you gradually make formerly unacceptable ideas more mainstream. From the perspective of these groups, that is how you advance your cause.
William Luther Pierce, author of ‘The Turner Diaries,’ pictured in 2001. (Wikimedia)
Jacobsen: We’ve covered history and ideology, but what about risk factors? Given today’s rhetoric and the broader ideological climate, how likely is it that this discourse escalates—not merely into mass protests, a constitutionally protected right in the United States—but into targeted intimidation, violence, vandalism, destruction of property, or Americans doing harm to other Americans?
Hinton: That is a great question; the answer depends on when you ask it.
If you had asked in 2020, in the lead-up to the Biden-Trump election, the warning signs would have been there.
For those of us who study atrocity crimes—a term encompassing genocide, crimes against humanity, war crimes, and ethnic cleansing, as well as broader political violence—many indicators of potential mass violence were present.
At that time, the U.S. was experiencing: a global pandemic created instability, an economic crisis further fueled public unrest, and the mobilization of heavily armed far-right groups.
One key catalyst for political violence around the world is a contested election. Historically, contested elections frequently lead to violence, especially in fragile or polarized democracies.
Two of the biggest risk factors that can escalate political violence into crimes against humanity are: a contested election—which we had in 2020, and democratic backsliding also occurred at the time.
Authoritarian regimes tend to be more stable in this regard—unless they deliberately target specific groups. However, democracies are not immune. Suppose you look at the historical treatment of Indigenous peoples in the U.S., for example. In that case, you see state-backed violence occurring within a democratic framework.
The greatest instability occurs when a country moves between political systems—either sliding into authoritarianism or undergoing democratic reform. In 2020, the U.S. experienced significant democratic backsliding, which heightened the risk of political violence.
At that time, I wondered: What if Trump had not been banned from Twitter? Before the January 6th insurrection, Twitter was his primary tool of communication. When the platform removed him, he temporarily lost his direct channel to millions of supporters. There was no Truth Social then, so his ability to escalate tensions was reduced.
I wrote about this in an article for Project Syndicate, analyzing the high potential for violence at that moment. And indeed, we saw January 6th unfold—a violent attempt to overturn a democratic election.
Fast forward to 2020—isolated attacks by mass shooters were, and still are a reality. Undoubtedly, such attacks will continue, even though the U.S. government has ramped up efforts to combat them. However, I expect that response to diminish under Trump 2.0—but that is a different discussion.
During the last election cycle, there was renewed concern about election-related violence and the potential for political conflict. The movie Civil War was widely discussed in this context, and multiple think tanks conducted war game simulations to explore possible crisis scenarios in the U.S.
The potential for unrest was real—not necessarily large-scale mass violence, but certainly protests, civil strife, and individual acts of violence. But then the election happened.
Democrats hesitate to call it a blowout, but that is essentially what it was. While the Republican candidate did not win most of the popular vote, that did not matter—he won all the battleground states. He made massive inroads with nearly every demographic.
Some key numbers: He secured most of the Latino vote, especially among Latino men—around 56-58%. There was a major swing among young white voters. His base expanded, even though his core support remained the same.
This time, the opposition was defeated and unable to regroup significantly—at least for now. That will likely change over time. The primary mobilization against his policies has been through court cases, which are currently the most effective avenue for opposition.
However, the Democratic Party lacks a clear message. They are struggling to articulate a compelling narrative after what happened. One key shift has been in rhetoric around race.
For many conservatives, being called a racist was one of the most politically damaging accusations. That label stung, and it became a unifying grievance among MAGA supporters.
Having attended MAGA events and read numerous MAGA-related books, I can confirm that this sentiment frequently arises. At rallies, Steve Bannon and others openly dismiss accusations of racism, saying things like, “They can call us racist or not racist—who cares?”
The Republicans, using the metapolitics strategy, leveraged this effectively. They weaponized cultural issues, including wokeness and critical race theory, and launched a devastating political attack against Democrats.
When they folded trans issues into this broader critique, it created even greater challenges for the Democrats.
At the same time, inflation and immigration became major voter concerns. The immigration issue, in particular, had shifted geographically—it was no longer perceived as a crisis only at the southern border. Instead, the impact was being felt in cities, including places like New York, where I live.
The rhetoric around immigration shifted from policy to economic resentment: “why are we giving money to immigrants when we need it here?” and “crime is increasing because of immigration.”
This bread-and-butter combination of economic and immigration concerns was a major factor.
However, what consistently received the loudest applause at MAGA rallies—which I attended as a researcher—were statements about “woke” issues, particularly trans rights.
This became a huge political problem for the Democrats.
One of the major strategic shifts within the Democratic Party over recent years has been a greater focus on identity politics. However, that strategy backfired in this election. Now, the question is: What happens next?
Will Democrats return to their working-class roots? That remains to be seen. Of course, they will continue to advocate for the rights of people of colour and marginalized groups, but the political landscape has shifted.
In many ways, Democrats now face the same kind of political tarnishing that Trump supporters once experienced.
So, there we are. I mention this because there is no immediate threat that Trump needs to deal with—he is in total control. He is sailing along, calling this the golden age, as he puts it.
He says there is now a “light” over the United States and the world because he holds power. So, this is the political reality at the moment.
The risks, aside from mass deportations, include sending people to Guantanamo Bay, detaining individuals in handcuffs, and various other abuses that, according to reports, are already unfolding.
To recap, I explained that this is not a static issue—you have to look at it over time because the situation constantly evolves.
It depends on the context. In 2020, we had one scenario and in the 2024 election, we had another.
However, the threat of election-related violence is now lower—primarily because Trump has consolidated power. He has also expanded his base by adopting a broad anti-DEI, anti-woke, American Marxist discourse, which has politically damaged the Democrats.
As a result, the Democratic Party is in a weakened position. They lack a clear message and are still trying to recalibrate. This means there is no real opposition right now.
There is always the possibility of white power extremist attacks or isolated incidents. Still, there is not much concern in terms of a civil war or large-scale protests escalating into violence.
However, looking ahead to 2028, the situation is far less predictable.
As I mentioned, politics is fluid—things change depending on unforeseen events. We cannot predict the future, but we can anticipate potential risk scenarios: a contested election in which Trump remains in power, but a Democrat appears to have clearly won led to actions that impede a peaceful transfer of power. Trump is running as J.D. Vance’s vice president, mimicking Putin’s political model in Russia.
I do not think that Trump will attempt to secure a third term, as some fear. However, the broader concern remains: what happens during the next power transfer? That is where things could get ugly.
So, in response to your question, I expect more episodic violence, rather than sustained, large-scale unrest. Regarding systemic issues, we will have to monitor the ongoing mass deportations, which have already begun and are expected to escalate.
But here is the key point: Trump’s opposition is now significantly weaker.
It is difficult for his critics to label him and his supporters as “racist” when he has just won the majority of Latino voters. That fact alone diminishes the credibility of those attacks.
With no strong opposition, we will unlikely see any major upheaval soon.
Jacobsen: You’ve described how social media and digital platforms have widened the reach of white-nationalist rhetoric, white identity, and related discourse. For this conversation, I want to draw a clear line between two groups: first, people who regard “white identity” as a cultural descriptor—say, someone of French or Dutch ancestry who values French or Dutch traditions; second, those who adopt a race-based, identitarian political ideology, which is qualitatively different from the first.
These are distinct categories and deserve different analyses. With that distinction in mind, how do social platforms and the broader online ecosystem—recommendation engines, engagement incentives, monetization schemes, influencer networks, and moderation gaps—amplify white-nationalist ideas, shuttle conspiracy theories into wider circulation, and accelerate the slide from cultural identity talk into overt political extremism?
Hinton: Massively.
That is the one-word answer.
This is the “secret sauce,” so to speak. And it goes far beyond white nationalism—it applies to everything.
Rumors spread rapidly.
For example, there have been cases where false rumors involving Dogecoin (Doge), USAID, or other topics have spiked online, gaining momentum even though they are completely untrue.
People exist in silos, where they consume headline-driven information without fact-checking sources. These narratives spread like wildfire, sometimes being deliberately planted by populists and at other times being adopted and amplified by populists after they gain traction.
So, where are people gathering now?
Many left-leaning users have migrated to Bluesky, which means that X (formerly Twitter) has shifted further to the far right than it was before.
I used to have to go to Telegram to find certain extremist content. Now, I can find it quite easily on X—sometimes even amplified directly by Elon Musk himself.
For example, the South African “white genocide” narrative has resurfaced recently. That was a controversial talking point during Trump 1.0, but today, it is not controversial.
Why? Because the Overton Window has shifted, and there is no significant opposition to it. So yes, your question speaks to a larger issue—the question of information consumption.
Where do people get their information?
One of the educators’ main objectives is teaching media literacy. Education should never be about promoting a left-wing, right-wing, or centrist agenda—it should be about teaching people how to critically evaluate sources and information. It should be centered on critical thinking, allowing people to apply it in whatever way they choose.
One way to foster critical thinking is to encourage students to evaluate their news sources and ensure that their media diet is not one-sided.
For example, I always tell my students: I read The New York Times, but I also read The Wall Street Journal. Use platforms like Tangle or similar aggregators that present what the left and the right are saying about a given issue.
I have contributed to The Conversation in some of my more recent public-facing writing. This academic platform makes research accessible.
I also make an effort to explain the perspectives of the MAGA world to people on the left, who often do not fully understand it and tend to reduce it to a simple narrative of fascist authoritarianism. Ironically, in the MAGAverse, many people mirror this perspective—except they believe there is an impending takeover by authoritarian Marxists.
Both sides are locked into these narratives. This kind of binary thinking happens all the time. Each side sees itself as resisting authoritarianism and gravitates toward easy explanations.
This division is particularly evident when comparing platforms: Bluesky vs. X (Twitter)—two completely different realities. Many groups use Telegram, but it is frequently associated with fringe ideologies. Truth Social—a political echo chamber.
We are increasingly living in bubbles.
For educators, the key challenge is teaching students not to take everything at face value: just because you see something on TikTok, it does not mean it is the news. Do not immediately retweet something without questioning it. Always be critical, think twice, and examine different perspectives.
Because, in reality, things are never as simple as one-line answers make them seem.
This ties back to an earlier point about how the left often characterizes the MAGA world as racist—just as MAGA supporters frequently label the left as radical Marxists.
Both of these are caricatures—stereotypes that obscure reality. It is easy to define the other side with a one-word smear. Taking a deep dive, analyzing the issues critically, and engaging with nuance is much harder.
That kind of deep thinking is challenging for many people. Now, that is not to say the words racist or Marxist should never be used. However, people should apply critical thinking when using them.
One final point—when people use words like racist or hater, they individualize the issue. This shifts attention away from the larger historical and systemic problems. For example: saying “structural racism” focuses on systems and institutions. Saying “a racist” focuses on an individual’s character.
However, individuals are raised within these larger social structures, and people need to think critically about this. This applies to both sides because it is part of how human beings understand the world.
The philosopher Theodor Adorno, a member of the Frankfurt School, described this as reification—or “thingification.” This is when we reduce complex social realities to fixed, simplistic categories.
The goal of critical thinking is to resist this tendency, unpack complexity, and move beyond surface-level labels.
Jacobsen: How do white nationalism and other far-right movements in the United States and Europe compare with parallel extremist ideologies—Islamist militancy, Hindu ethnonationalism, and beyond? Where do their logics overlap—in recruitment, grievance, mythmaking—and where do they distinctly diverge?
Hinton: Yes. So, you are asking an anthropologist—which makes this a tricky question.
Anthropologists emphasize the importance of understanding historical and cultural contexts in depth. Because of that, I do not want to dive too deeply into contexts outside my expertise; I will stick to the ones I know best.
That said, I study these movements comparatively and examine their larger macro-dynamics. There are many continuities between them.
For example, the “replacement” discourse we discussed earlier does not exist solely in the United States and Europe. It also manifests in India.
The notion that an external or internal group is “invading” and threatening to take over is widespread. This fear-based formula appears in many societies.
Recently, I was re-reading for my classes about Hermann Göring and Joseph Goebbels, among other Nazi leaders. While imprisoned, Göring was interviewed by a psychologist, who asked him about the past and how things had unfolded in Nazi Germany.
Göring’s response was striking: he said that people do not naturally want war. But if you tell them there is an evil enemy—one that is threatening society, contaminating the nation, or destroying its values—Then they will go to war.
This logic is deeply effective and has been used across history.
Of course, it is not the entire story. Still, mobilizing grievance and fear—whether about “outsiders” or even “insiders” who are framed as existential threats—is a universal tactic in extremist movements. One case that is slightly different in South Africa.
The history of colonialism and land ownership creates a unique dynamic. Unlike in replacement narratives, where the fear is about “invaders,” the tension in South Africa is framed differently.
The Black African majority is reclaiming land that was historically taken. The white minority, which still owns significant land, perceives this as an existential threat.
That is where the conflict emerges. It is not about outsiders coming in—instead, the perception is that the existing population is being “targeted” for destruction.
This is why Elon Musk recently tweeted about a rally in South Africa where someone called for action against white landowners.
The reality is that white South Africans still own vast amounts of land. However, the far-right framing of this situation revives the “white genocide” narrative.
This same existential fear—the idea that “they want to destroy us”—exists in many different extremist movements. It is a deeply resonant message for people who feel their identity, culture, or way of life is under siege.
Earlier today, while preparing for my class, I reflected on Göring’s words. His strategy was simple: Make people afraid. Tell them there is an enemy. They will go to war for you.
This pattern repeats across history—and we continue to see it today.
Jacobsen: Thank you so much for the opportunity. It was great to meet you.
Hinton: Yes, great. I hope this discussion was helpful. Thanks for your interest.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Ritual Killing in Africa
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/09/27
How can Nigeria’s legal system be strengthened to effectively prosecute witchcraft-related abuses?
Dr. Leo Igwe is a Nigerian human rights advocate, scholar, and founder of the Advocacy for Alleged Witches (AfAW). With decades of activism, Igwe has dedicated his career to defending those falsely accused of witchcraft, combating superstition, and advancing secular human rights. He has partnered with international and national organizations to confront harmful practices rooted in fear and cultural beliefs, particularly targeting women, children, and people with disabilities. A vocal critic of religious extremism and media sensationalism, Igwe promotes critical thinking, education, and legal reform. His work stands at the intersection of grassroots advocacy, public enlightenment, and global humanism.
In this interview with Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Igwe intensified campaigns across Nigeria in 2025 to defend victims of witchcraft accusations. Through unprecedented collaborations with organizations such as the International Federation of Women Lawyers, the National Human Rights Commission, and disability rights groups, AfAW has expanded its outreach to over 15 states. Initiatives include memorial events, legal interventions, media engagement, and direct support for victims. Despite cultural and religious resistance, Igwe emphasizes that witchcraft is a myth, urging communities to shift from fear-driven persecution to rights-based advocacy. His work highlights growing momentum, though challenges remain entrenched.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with the prolific activist, Dr. Leo Igwe of Nigeria, founder of the Advocacy for Alleged Witches (AfAW). Our primary focus is advocacy for people accused of witchcraft. A lot has happened this year, and we can dive into some specific events because I have notes. In your view, what have been the most significant achievements so far?
Dr. Leo Igwe: One of the most significant developments this year is that we have organized more meetings and awareness programs than in any previous year since 2020. Even as I speak with you, I am in Port Harcourt, in Rivers State, where we are organizing an awareness event—an event to remember victims of witch hunts and ritual attacks. It is the first of its kind in the country and in the history of our campaign: victims are being remembered rather than demonized.
These victims are not being pre-judged as guilty or condemned. There has also been considerable interest from groups wanting to partner with us. We have seen unprecedented requests and welcoming gestures from different organizations and civil society groups. For instance, the International Federation of Women Lawyers (FIDA)—several state chapters—has reached out to co-organize events. Historically, their focus has been on women and children, and accusations of witchcraft were not central; that is changing as AfAW’s work gains traction.
We have also engaged with the National Human Rights Commission of Nigeria (NHRC). Nigeria has 36 states and the Federal Capital Territory (Abuja), and some NHRC state offices are reaching out to co-organize events like the one we are holding on Saturday. They are ready to collaborate to highlight these abuses.
The Down Syndrome Foundation Nigeria has also contacted us to partner. They work on disability issues. Unfortunately, people with disabilities are often stigmatized or labelled as “possessed,” which leads to ostracism and harmful so-called “spiritual” interventions.
A recent example that drew national attention was a reported case in Calabar in February 2025, where a pastor allegedly killed his daughter, a child with Down syndrome, claiming she could transform into a snake. Cases like this show how superstition and stigma can turn deadly, and we are working with disability advocates to confront these beliefs and protect vulnerable families.
In terms of people who are accused, demonized, or stigmatized—whether because of disability or because of problems within the community—this has been a significant focus this year. We have now organized or collaborated in organizing events in over 15 states across Nigeria. By next week, we are planning an event in Niger State, in the north of the country. That will be the first event we have organized there, and we hope to use the opportunity to strengthen our partnerships with local groups and build a more robust mechanism for defending the accused.
That said, these collaborations do not come without challenges. For instance, in Niger State, we are partnering with women’s rights and children’s rights groups. They told us they would prefer not to have accused persons present, because their presence might trigger confrontation with accusers or with those who suspect them of being witches. This has been difficult, but we see it as a step toward educating people that everyone should stand as an advocate for the accused.
Many people still hold on to those beliefs and fears, even while showing some sympathy for the accused. However, sympathy is not enough. The accused are innocent. The law is on their side. So we want to find ways to reduce fear and anxiety and encourage communities to join us in openly and categorically supporting those accused of witchcraft.
Our meetings are not always characterized by unanimous support for advocacy on behalf of alleged witches. Sometimes, participants insist that witchcraft oppression is real. For example, at a recent meeting in Owerri, a pastor argued that witchcraft affliction must be addressed.
This is the contradiction we face. People say they oppose torture, killing, and persecution, but at the same time, they continue to insist witches exist. For us at AfAW, this is contradictory. If anyone claims people really are witches, then the burden is on them to prove it—to vindicate or exonerate those accused, rather than subject them to persecution.
Religion and culture also reinforce these challenges. Christianity, Islam, and Nollywood movies all perpetuate the belief that witchcraft and demonic possession are real. These institutions and cultural products continue to fuel the mindset that sustains witchcraft accusations.
In the churches and in the mosques, these harmful ideas are still being promoted. We are working to weaken the grip of these narratives on people’s minds and to chip away at what I call “witchcraft evangelism.” It does enormous damage and undermines our work. We also want people to recognize that Nollywood films and African movies are fiction, not fact.
The filmmakers reflect the myths and beliefs of society, but they are still telling stories, not recording reality. We want to help reorient society so that these movies are understood as cultural fiction. These are some of our successes, but also some of our challenges. Still, we see steady progress as more people begin to realize that something does not add up when it comes to witchcraft accusations. More groups are welcoming us and reaching out to cooperate, so that together we can address and dispel this phenomenon.
Jacobsen: Now, about specifics, in Owerri, Imo State, on September 2–3, we observed the International Day Against Witch Hunts. That was an event reaffirming material and psychosocial support. What was the big takeaway from that event this year?
Igwe: A lot. In Owerri, for the first time, we marched through the streets of the city, sharing flyers and speaking with people about the problem. We also visited the palace of the traditional ruler, Eze Clinton, who received us warmly and pledged his support to our campaign. That was an important milestone.
Another highlight was a presentation by our legal counsel, Mr. Okorie, on witchcraft accusations and the law. In Nigeria, accusing someone of witchcraft is a criminal offence. It is a form of criminal defamation, but most Nigerians are unaware of this—or if they are, they do not take it seriously, because their beliefs often outweigh what is written in the law. Mr. Okorie made it clear that even calling someone a witch can lead to prosecution. If this is done in a church or public gathering, the entire act is criminal.
He gave the example of a crusade organized in Imo State shortly after our event. The theme was “That Witch Must Die.” We reported it to the police, who summoned the pastor, but unfortunately did not prosecute him. Mr. Okorie explained to our participants that such gatherings are legally actionable, and anyone who participates in them could also be held liable. His legal perspective shocked many people, as they were unaware that the law was so clear on this matter.
We also had some victims from different communities share their experiences, which reinforced the urgency of our campaign.
We also heard from victims who recounted their stories and experiences. One woman in particular, Mrs. Regina, told us that after some people in her family died, she was forced to undergo a ritual. They bathed the corpse, washed the body, and gave her the water to drink as an “exoneration” ritual. She is one of the people we are supporting now, trying to provide her with all the necessary help to get back on her feet.
Another experience I had was visiting a street named after a victim of ritual killing, Ikechukwu Okoroho, who was murdered about 30 years ago. A street was named in his memory. I went to that street and to the scene where he was killed, according to reports. These are some of the key takeaways from the Owerri, Imo State event.
Jacobsen: There was also a case intervention in Ebonyi State on August 20, involving the banishment of Joseph Agwu from Unwuhu community. The case called on the state to prosecute the attackers, compensate the victim, and end the practice of banishment. Could you elaborate on that specific case?
Igwe: Yes, Joseph’s case is one of several in Ebonyi. He was accused of witchcraft and banished from his community. His property was destroyed, and he was forced to leave. We reached out to him, and he recounted his ordeal. We are appealing to the state authorities to step in and protect people like him.
Another successful intervention we made was in the case of Mr. Kingsley, who had also been accused. He was paraded through the streets, humiliated, and substances were poured over his body. When we got the information, we immediately contacted the police.
Thanks to that intervention, Kingsley is now back in his community. I met him recently, and he told me how happy and relieved he was. People now look at him with respect rather than the scorn he used to face. This was a real success story.
Of course, not all cases succeed. Sometimes incidents happen in rural communities where it is difficult for us to intervene. Accessing those areas can be dangerous—there are threats of beatings, mob attacks, or even killings. People in those communities often suspect that anyone investigating is there to help the police prosecute them. So yes, we have had some successes, but the challenges remain significant.
Jacobsen: There were also several roundtables. For example, in Ekiti State from August 19 to 21, there was a stakeholder roundtable aligned with the World Day Against Witch Hunts. There were also NHRC partnerships in Kano, Okoro, Ondo, and Yola, Adamawa. Across the year, there were several such meetings—on January 21, March 6, July 21, and August 19–21. What is the role of these roundtables, and what were the key takeaways from each?
Igwe: For the one we held in Yola early in the year, the big takeaway was that too often, when these cases are reported, nothing is done. They appear in the news and then disappear. Victims receive no help or support.
Since 2020, AfAW has been a game-changer. We step in on the side of the accused to support and empower them. In Yola, our message was clear: there is now an organization that stands for the accused. We introduced ourselves, explained what we do, and intervened in a specific case where a parent and his partner tortured a girl to death. The mother had been accused of witchcraft, and the children were said to have “inherited” it from her. The girl was tortured and died. We have been working hard to support the mother and her three surviving children, and to push for justice.
That was our first meeting in Yola, and like with many of these events, participants told us nobody else was doing what we are doing. We know why—few people have the conviction and understanding that we at AfAW bring. However, we made it clear there is now a place where the accused can seek support, and an organization keeping watch on these cases. That was our takeaway from Yola.
In Ondo, we also held an event and combined it with a radio program. A woman named Olaemi Ijogun attended after hearing us on the radio. She told us how she had been accused as a child and beaten. Her case was heartbreaking. She said that both she and her sister had been accused of being initiated into a coven when they were very young.
In Olaemi’s case, the accusations came from a relative who claimed to have seen her and her sister in a dream. The parents were told the girls were going to covens at night. As a result, they were not allowed to sleep. They were forced to kneel and raise their hands through the night because the parents believed that if they slept, they would travel spiritually to the coven. The girls were denied sleep for several nights.
The stigma followed Olaemi to school, where it negatively impacted her social life. She still breaks down when recounting the trauma, which she did at our event. She called on people to stop making accusations because they leave an indelible mark on the minds and psyches of children. Since then, she has been working with us to advocate against witchcraft accusations.
For instance, she joined us in Ekiti State during the World Day Against Witch Hunts event. There, we encountered a case where a 10-year-old girl accused her grandmother of initiating her into a coven and of spiritually murdering people. This accusation was made on the radio after a station invited the family to speak. As a result, the grandmother’s business collapsed, and she was ostracized; the community avoided her. We intervened to reassure her that she had no hand in such things.
The background is that the family’s youngest child, about two years old, had been sick since birth. The grandmother was blamed for the illness. When I interviewed the mother of the 10-year-old, she even told me that the grandmother had “taken away the intelligence” of the children, causing them to do poorly in school, and was also responsible for the family’s financial struggles. In other words, they blamed the grandmother for virtually every problem.
To address this, we provided the family with money to conduct a medical test on the child, so we can determine the real medical problem and treat it appropriately. This shows that we are not only holding events, but also taking practical steps to intervene. We extend solidarity by combining advocacy with direct support. We are helping the grandmother, the victim of the accusation, while also ensuring that the sick child receives medical treatment. These are some of the key outcomes from the Ekiti State event.
Jacobsen: How did the World Day Against Witch Hunts itself go?
Igwe: It was observed on August 10. That year it fell on a Sunday. In Nigeria, the best thing you can do on a Sunday is either go to church or stay at home. Suppose you organize anything else on that day. In that case, it is not likely to attract much participation—except for the few atheists and humanists in the country.
On August 10, the World Day Against Witch Hunts, I attended a church where the pastor regularly preaches against witch hunting. In our work, we identify religious leaders who speak out against these practices. It is not easy, of course, but we make every effort to find such churches. I was told about this one, contacted the pastor, and he confirmed that he preaches against witch hunting. So I went there to listen to his sermon. We also recorded it so that we could use it later to show other churches that this kind of preaching is possible and necessary.
It was a small church, with maybe 50 participants—tiny compared to the massive congregations you see in Nigeria, where tens or even hundreds of thousands gather. That probably explains why this church holds what you might call a minority position in the religious landscape. Still, that was where I spent the day.
Before and after August 10, we have continued organizing events in various states to remember victims of witch hunts and ritual attacks. It has gone well. People are coming out and saying, “At last, there is a space where we can feel vindicated, where we can share our stories in front of an audience that supports us, rather than seeing us as guilty.” That has been the spirit of these gatherings. In fact, we could not accommodate all the events in August, which is why some of them were pushed into September. For us at AfAW, the World Day Against Witch Hunts has not really ended. Our event this Saturday will conclude this year’s cycle of activities tied to that observance.
Jacobsen: Let us turn to the media side of things—ongoing public education, advocacy, op-eds, and briefings. Which news and opinion publications have been most effective in disseminating information about this campaign, the organization, and the harm caused by these superstitions?
Igwe: We have had coverage of our activities in several online and mainstream media outlets. Some journalists have even drawn our attention to cases in which we later intervened. Among Nigerian media organizations, I must mention Sahara Reporters, ThisDay, and The Eagle Online, which have been supportive.
We have also had coverage in other outlets, such as the Nigerian Tribune, Punch, and The Sun. Some of these online and print organizations have tried to highlight the work we are doing.
However, let me be clear—before now, media agencies have overwhelmingly been part of the problem. Their reporting on witchcraft accusations often reinforces the very narratives we are trying to dismantle. This is something I consistently point out to them during media interactions.
Many journalists still report accusations in sensational ways. They tell me the more spectacular, the better—for clicks and traffic. They call it “clickbait.” So, you see headlines like “Witch Crash-Lands” or “Bird-Woman Found in Village.” It is absolute nonsense, but it generates attention. Moreover, in their pursuit of attention, they misinform the public, mislead communities, and do real harm.
These reports are unprofessional and unethical. Journalism should be about reporting facts, and it should be balanced. Instead, in their quest for traffic, media houses end up endangering lives. For example, there was a radio program where a child accused her grandmother of initiating her into witchcraft. We intervened, and when we left, the station manager admitted to me, “Leo, it was this radio program that caused the problem.” He realized it had put an innocent woman in danger and destroyed her socially.
So yes, the media have been part of the problem. However, with the kind of engagement we are doing at the Advocacy for Alleged Witches (AfAW), some outlets are beginning to rethink. Some are realigning and realizing just how unprofessional and unethical their reporting has been. They are slowly starting to highlight our perspective. However, we still have a long way to go. Nigerian media organizations still thrive on sensationalism.
The media still thrives on sensational headlines—stories designed to attract attention and appeal to primitive superstitions that people find exciting. Slowly and steadily, some outlets are beginning to support what we are doing. However, there is still a tremendous amount of work ahead.
Another challenge is this: while media agencies are quick to publish sensational, false, and misleading reports about witchcraft—often for free—when we want to put forward our perspective, they demand large sums of money. Both online and broadcast outlets do this.
For example, if we want to appear on television, they charge between $500 and $1,000 just for the appearance. Additionally, you may need to travel, pay for flights, and cover accommodation costs. This makes enlightenment and advocacy extremely expensive, even though it is precisely what the country needs to counter these harmful narratives.
Jacobsen: Do you have any final points on that last topic?
Igwe: Yes, while a few media organizations are beginning to report witchcraft accusations more responsibly—rather than treating witchcraft itself as a fact or as a “certified” part of African culture—the progress is limited. Some outlets are starting to understand AfAW’s position and provide more balance. However, we are still far from the cultural shift we need. That kind of change will not happen through one report or even one event. It requires intensive public education and sustained enlightenment.
Unfortunately, in this area, many media stations have not been supportive. They are quick to publish sensational stories, like “an elderly woman turned into a bird” or “a witch crash-landed on her way to a meeting,” as was recently reported in Delta State. These kinds of stories get free publicity.
However, when AfAW attempts to purchase airtime to educate the public, we encounter significant costs. Media outlets charge us considerable amounts of money, making enlightenment campaigns very expensive. The imbalance is stark: free space for superstition, but costly barriers for rational education.
Meanwhile, churches and religious organizations that actively promote witchcraft narratives are given abundant airtime. They advertise events with themes like “That Witch Must Die” or “Exposing the Mysteries of Witchcraft.” These programs receive free promotion, which reinforces harmful beliefs.
By contrast, when we present our position—saying plainly that witchcraft is a myth—we are given little space, asked to pay heavily, and sometimes even put under pressure during media interviews. The pressure is on us to “prove” that something imaginary does not exist, instead of challenging those who claim it does.
The media landscape is still heavily skewed toward reinforcing witchcraft beliefs. We have not yet reached the paradigm shift where media establishments themselves start questioning and dismantling these narratives. That remains the challenge before us.
The cultural shift we need will only come when the media itself transforms. Until then, they will not welcome our programs in the way they should. Even when we pay for airtime, they often schedule us in the middle of the day, when people are busy at work. They refuse to give us prime slots in the evening or late at night—times when churches preach about witchcraft to audiences at home around the dinner table.
Without media on our side, we cannot fully succeed in making witch-hunting history in this region. That is why this work is so critical.
Jacobsen: There was a memorial action on August 29, connected to victims of ritual killings. You visited a hotel site linked to one of those incidents, to connect memory with today’s anti–witch hunt work. Could you explain what happened at that hotel, and how many victims are we talking about?
Igwe: I visited because of the incident that happened there in September 1996, almost 29 years ago. What happened then is still happening today. For example, earlier this year, in February 2025, in Lagos, a young man murdered his girlfriend, used an axe to break her head, and drained her blood into a calabash, supposedly for rituals. That case mirrors what happened at the Otokoto Hotel in 1996.
At Otokoto, the victim was an 11-year-old boy who sold peanuts on the streets. A hotel gardener lured him inside, gave him a drugged drink, and when the boy became unconscious, he cut off his head. The man was apprehended while attempting to deliver the head to someone who had ordered it for ritual purposes.
The news caused a massive uproar. There were riots in the city, and people began burning the houses of those suspected of being involved.
The people labelled as “ritualists,” in other words, those involved in ritual syndicates or racketeering, were the focus of that uproar. My visit to the Otokoto Hotel aimed to remind the people of Imo State that this practice has been ongoing for far too long and must come to an end.
The government seized the hotel property, and today it is used by the police. Not far from the police station, there is a street named after the young boy who was murdered. Those responsible were eventually arrested, and some received life imprisonment while others were sentenced to death.
I visited that property to show that the same problem we saw nearly three decades ago is still with us today—only in new forms. Now, people kill their girlfriends, relatives, or acquaintances for what they call organ harvesting. They believe specific organs can be used in rituals to produce wealth, success, or power.
The narratives of religion, miracles, magic, and supernatural intervention fuel these beliefs. All of them reinforce the idea that ritual killings can deliver prosperity. What we are confronting is a Herculean task—a complex, many-headed monster of superstition and fear. Only the flame of reason, compassion, critical thinking, and skeptical inquiry can provide hope for society and for the victims.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Leo.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): Daily Atheist
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/08/03
Leslea Mair is the Co-Director of the documentary film Losing Our Religion. Her
work builds on the research done by Linda LaScola and Daniel Dennett through the
foundation of The Clergy Project. Here we explore the documentary film. The film
is scheduled for purchase in November 2018. You may order your copy from the
website Losing Our Religion [http://www.losingourreligion.ca/home].
Scott Douglas Jacobsen [https://in-sightjournal.com/in-sight-people/]: What was
the inspiration for the title and content of the new fabulous document film
Losing Our Religion?
Leslea Mair: Wow, that’s quite a compliment! Thank you!
I wanted to make this film after hearing about The Clergy Project. I think
changing your mind about something as important to your world view as religion
is such an interesting process. But for ministers to stop believing struck me as
a real personal earthquake. I read the stories of the non-believing clergy in
Daniel Dennett and Linda LaScola’s studies and really wanted to explore stories
like that. I was so curious about how that plays out for people, not just in the
short term.
Jacobsen: You co-directed the film with Leif Kaldor and based on the work of
Professor Daniel Dennett and Linda LaScola. How did you come into contact with
Leif Kaldor and the research of Dennett and LaScola?
Mair: Leif and I met at a film festival in central Saskatchewan, close to where
we both grew up, about 20 years ago. We’ve been business partners and a couple
since then. We bring complementary skill sets to directing – we’ve made quite a
number of films together. It’s a partnership that works really well for us.
I was the one who tripped across the studies that Dennett and LaScola published,
but we were both intrigued by it from the start. I think I first read about them
on some secular/atheist blogs and started thinking about what kind of story you
could tell about it, so the film was kind of my baby at the start. But we always
bounce ideas off one another, so Leif very quickly became involved in the
process. His take on the subject was a little different than mine – his
childhood had a lot more religious influence than mine did, so it was a good
counterpoint to my thinking in the early stages of developing the idea.
Jacobsen: On reflection and reading of Dennett’s and LaScola’s work, what
particular findings struck you, stood out to you?
Mair: The thing that really struck me was how traumatic giving up on believing
was for people. You have to understand, I’ve never been a believer, so the idea
that you can still be emotionally attached to the idea of a deity even when
you’ve ceased believing in it was a little foreign to me. I wanted to understand
that better.
What also made an impression on me – although it didn’t completely surprise me –
was how swift and unkind, sometimes even cruel, the reactions to these people
were when they either confessed or were found out. I was surprised by how strong
that reaction was, and that the risks people take in talking frankly about
nonbelief are very real and quite severe in some places.
Jacobsen: Minister Gretta Vosper contributed to the documentary film as well.
What role did she play in the film?
Mair: Gretta is one of the people who is trying to make non-belief work in a
traditionally believing environment. She’s an out atheist in the pulpit. The
United Church of Canada is one of the most liberal and progressive denominations
out there – I grew up in the United Church myself. So when Gretta and I first
started talking, it totally made sense to me that if there was any organization
that could handle this, it was this one. But there was still some serious
pushback. She was called up on the carpet and has been judged unfit for ministry
by a panel in the UCC, but she’s still in her congregation. They’re still trying
to figure out what to do with her — they don’t know how to excommunicate her
because they’ve never done anything like that — there’s no process, really. It
would be funny if it didn’t have such serious repercussions for her.
What role Gretta and her congregation played was to show that a church-style
community could be secular in nature. They’re trying to pull a shrinking
institution into the future. It’s important work, and the struggle continues.
Jacobsen: How do their narratives speak to the stories of others throughout
North America?
Mair: Brendan and Jenn Murphy are our primary characters. They’re a couple in
the US — Brendan is a former evangelical pastor, Jenn is his wife.
When I met them, Brendan was a “closeted” atheist and still working in ministry,
but Jenn was a devout believer. So they were dealing with multiple layers of
crisis. Brendan had joined The Clergy Project and Linda LaScola had put him in
touch with me. When he agreed to an interview, he wanted to bring Jenn along,
and I was fine with that. I didn’t think it was going to amount to anything. I
was SO wrong! Jenn’s a really brave and amazing woman. She was so nervous that
day, but she still sat down and gave me not just an interview, but really opened
up. This was a major shake-up for her in her personal life and in her faith, and
I’m still blown away at how much courage she and Brendan had in doing this.
I was able to follow their story from that point, through leaving the ministry
under duress and into their current lives.
Jacobsen: What documentary films speak to telling these important narratives of
loss of faith, especially in countries without the massive number of public
privileges won such as our own?
Mair: There are a few out there – one of our contributors, Jerry De Witt, is
featured in a film that has an excerpt out on the New York Times Op Docs called
“The Outcast of Beauregard Parish” about his experience exiting the ministry.
And there’s a film called “One of Us” about the struggles of three ex-Hasidic
Jews who are adjusting to secular life. And Bart Campolo has just come out with
a film about his relationship with his father, Tony Campolo, and how they’ve
navigated Bart leaving faith behind.
I don’t know of many films coming out of non-Western countries on the subject,
but it’s very dangerous to approach atheism in many places. You’d be taking a
grave risk and often putting your contributors in jeopardy. I’d love to find a
way to do that if some risk could be minimized.
It’s also hard to find the funding to make a full-length documentary film, or I
suspect we’d see a lot more of them. The stories are certainly out there, and
there are more of them all the time as people leave faith behind. As far as I
know, Losing Our Religion is the only feature-length documentary on The Clergy
Project so far.
Jacobsen: What targeted areas of activism seem the most relevant at this moment
in time now? For example, the work to prevent the ongoing attempts at the
encroachment of individual rights to reproductive health including abortion, the
rights to medical care, the right to die, and so on, from groups, ironically,
with open, grand, self-righteous proclamations about individualism, the “divine
individual,” and individual rights as the highest values to attain within the
country – ironic because their preventative and obstructive attempts stand in
opposition to these individual rights of legal persons in Canada, of full adult
citizens in Canada. I see a similar tragic irony in pro-life activists killing
doctors.
Mair: Oh, gosh. There’s so much work to do, isn’t there?
We’re in such a rapid state of change right now. I think that the majority of
people — especially here in Canada, although I know a lot of Americans who feel
the same way — support reproductive rights, the right to die and universal
health care. It’s the vocal minorities that get in the way of those rights. I
think Dan Barker said it best in our film when he talked about the religious
political right dying out, knowing they’re dying out, and lashing out at anyone
and anything that threatens them. The world is changing. It’s going to continue
to change. The one advantage the religious right has is that it has an organized
voice. I think we have to build communities of support so that we have an
organized voice as well.
The really hopeful thing is that those communities are starting to happen — the
Oasis communities and Sunday Assemblies and other humanist and secular groups
are starting to grow and they’re becoming more active in addressing social
justice issues. So I’m optimistic. There are some really fantastic people out
there.
Jacobsen: Any final thoughts or feelings in conclusion?
Mair: Not that I can think of!
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Leslea.
Mair: Thanks so much for taking the time, Scott!
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/15
Rev. Brandan Robertson is a queer Christian author, activist, and pastor with a Master of Theological Studies from Iliff School of Theology. A former evangelical, he is now a leading voice in progressive Christianity and inclusive theology. In this interview with Scott Douglas Jacobsen, Robertson discusses his dual definition of queerness—as identity and resistance—and critiques the misuse of scripture by conservative movements. He advocates for queer hermeneutics, spiritual authenticity, and building “new tables of grace” beyond institutional church walls. Robertson’s theology challenges binary norms and invites LGBTQ+ individuals to reclaim their place within the Christian story.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Rev. Brandan Robertson is a queer Christian author, activist, and pastor known for his work at the intersection of faith, sexuality, and social justice. A former evangelical, he is a prominent advocate for inclusive theology. He has built a significant platform and has been referred to as a leading voice in progressive Christianity. He is the author of several books, including True Inclusion, The Gospel of Inclusion, and Queer and Christian: No Contradiction.
He holds a Master of Theological Studies from Iliff School of Theology in Denver, Colorado, and serves as a spiritual leader, public theologian, and advocate for LGBTQ+ inclusion in the Church. For those reading this internationally or from a United Nations perspective—such as the LGBTI Core Group—it may be useful to note that “LGBTQ+” is the most commonly used terminology in the United States, whereas “LGBTI” is more typical in UN documents.
Through preaching and pastoral work, Robertson seeks to reclaim Christianity as a force for radical love, justice, and liberation—especially for those historically marginalized or excluded by religious institutions. First question: I’ll begin with a spontaneous question, and then move on to the prepared list. How does your dual definition of queer identity and resistance reshape an understanding of Christian discipleship?
Rev. Brandan Robertson: Yes. The way I use the word queer in this book—and the way I’ve used it to describe my own identity for over a decade—is twofold. First, it refers to the umbrella term for the LGBTQ+ community. But second, I draw from thinkers like bell hooks, who describe queerness as a position of resistance to systems of domination and conformity.
We live in a society where we are conditioned to perform certain identities, to wear social masks, and to conform in order to be accepted. But I believe the gospel of Jesus—the core message of the New Testament—is inherently subversive. It challenges political, cultural, and religious pressures to conform and instead invites each person to live authentically, as their true, God-created self.
To follow Jesus, in my understanding, is to die to the false self and rise to new life—to the true self that reflects divine intention. Tragically, the institutional Church in many modern contexts has become the opposite of that vision. As a queer person raised in the Church, I was told I had to repress my sexuality, attempt to become straight, or remain celibate for life. But there is no solid biblical basis for such a mandate, and my book addresses this directly.
More than that, such teachings contradict the very essence of Jesus’s message—one of authenticity, honesty, and what he calls “abundant life.” So to be queer, in a theological sense, is not just an invitation for LGBTQ+ people, but for everyone—to reject imposed conformity, shed societal masks, and live into the fullness of who we are, just as God created us, in all our diversity.
Jacobsen: The Church has a long and varied history of scriptural interpretation. Are there any early or historical Christian movements that reflect the kind of inclusive and liberating vision you are advocating for today? So people do not take this as, “Oh, this is just a modern Christian reconciling their faith with LGBTQ+ concerns,” right?
Robertson: Yes. In one sense, it is absolutely true that this is a modern reconciliation—because the concepts of sexual orientation and gender identity, as we understand them today, did not emerge until the late 1800s, when modern psychology began to articulate these as distinct aspects of human identity. It was only then that we began to recognize that people have innate characteristics related to sexuality and gender.
So it is true that for the first fifteen hundred—or perhaps even more—years of Christianity, there was no direct conversation about homosexuality or gender identity in the way we speak about them today.
What did exist were conversations about exploitative sexual acts, such as pederasty or coercive relationships between men, which were common in the ancient world. There were also discussions on prostitution, adultery, and other elements of sexual ethics.
One key point I make in the book—and one that is supported by my PhD-level research in sexuality and theology—is that there has never been a singular, consistent Christian sexual ethic throughout Church history. That in itself is quite fascinating.
Jacobsen: So Christianity has not always maintained a consistent stance on premarital sex?
Robertson: Christianity has not always been anti–premarital sex. As I note in the book, there is not a single verse from Genesis to Revelation that clearly and explicitly condemns all sex outside of marriage. Likewise, when it comes to non-heteronormative sexualities and gender identities, Christianity simply did not address these topics until the modern era.
My historical theory—based on substantial evidence—is that in the 1950s, 1960s, and 1970s, particularly in the United States, there was a deliberate effort by conservative religious and political leaders to mobilize a new political movement. They needed cultural flashpoints to galvanize support, and they chose two highly emotive issues: homosexuality and abortion.
These became defining issues for what would eventually be known as the Religious Right and the modern Republican Party. This emphasis on homosexuality, then, was politically motivated—it did not emerge from serious biblical scholarship or theological inquiry.
In fact, the scholarly consensus is now quite clear: the Bible does not speak about homosexuality as we understand it today. The term itself did not exist. The biblical references often cited are addressing forms of sex that were either exploitative, transactional, or ritualistic—not loving, consensual, same-sex relationships.
So, the larger purpose of the book is to expose this distortion—to show that the emphasis on condemning LGBTQ+ people was a political strategy, not a biblically grounded or theologically sound position.
Jacobsen: As an olive branch, what does the Religious Right—or traditional Christianity—get right?
Robertson: That’s a great question. First, I want to distinguish between the Religious Right and conservative or traditional Christianity. They are not always the same thing.
I do believe that traditional Christianity gets something right in its emphasis on self-control and the ethical boundaries around sexuality—an emphasis rooted in the teachings of the Apostle Paul in the New Testament. Paul warns against excess, lust, and indulgence, and while those teachings have often been weaponized, they also offer valuable psychological and ethical insights.
The idea that sexual expression should involve mindfulness, responsibility, and respect is something I affirm in the book. What we saw during the sexual revolution, for instance, was in some cases a complete rejection of any boundaries. But I argue that a healthy sexual ethic—one grounded in self-awareness, integrity, and respect—can coexist with a queer-affirming theology.
We should be mindful and ask ourselves: Is what I am doing loving to myself? Loving to the person I am engaging with? Is it beneficial to us in a meaningful way? Or is this an expression of excessive lust, or an attempt to satisfy a psychological need that could be more appropriately addressed outside of sexual behavior?
In that sense, I will say traditional Christianity gets self-control right. The problem arises when that general biblical principle is extrapolated into an elaborate, rigid system of sexual rules that have no real biblical basis and are often objectively harmful. Many young people leave conservative churches as teenagers or college students precisely because they discover that what they were taught about sex and sexuality does not align with their lived experiences or the realities affirmed by science and psychology.
There is a better way—one where Christian sexual ethics are grounded in compassion, evidence-based insights, and space for discovery and growth. In that model, people are not shamed into conformity but are given grace to explore what a healthy, ethical sexuality looks like for them, free from the burden of unrealistic or harmful dogma.
Jacobsen: How does historical-critical exegesis challenge the so-called “clobber passages” of Genesis and Leviticus?
Robertson: Yes. I address all six of the commonly cited clobber passages—both Old and New Testament—in the book. This is perhaps the most frequent topic I discuss online as well, because most people simply do not understand how radically different sex functioned in the ancient world compared to today.
In antiquity, sex was not primarily about intimacy or mutual love; it was a social act and a marker of hierarchy and status. For instance, if you were a Roman citizen, you could have sex with almost anyone—slaves, women, boys—and it had nothing to do with your sexual orientation. The key factor was dominance and status. Roman men would often have sex with male slaves, not out of desire or love, but as a display of power. These acts were non-consensual, exploitative, and rooted in domination.
This framework is critical to understanding Leviticus. The same goes for the story of Sodom and Gomorrah, as well as references in Romans, 1 Corinthians, and 1 Timothy. What is being condemned in all of these passages is not loving, consensual same-sex relationships, but abusive, exploitative sexual behavior—typically between men—within a patriarchal framework.
In such a world, the person who was sexually passive—the one who was penetrated—was seen as being feminized, and thus degraded. This was considered deeply shameful in a society that equated power and masculinity with dominance. So, the moral objection was not against same-sex love—it was against being seen as effeminate or weak, which was abhorrent in patriarchal culture.
From a historical-critical standpoint, I believe the scholarship clearly shows that the Bible is condemning exploitative sex—not loving, equal partnerships. And I agree with those condemnations. I do not believe exploitative or abusive sex is ever moral or good.
But modern readers often lack that historical and cultural context. When they read, for example, “A man shall not lie with a man as with a woman—it is an abomination” in English, they interpret that as a blanket prohibition on gay sex. They do not realize that the original context reflects a vastly different world. That misunderstanding leads many well-meaning Christians to adopt a non-affirming view, simply because they have not had access to this broader, more nuanced understanding.
Jacobsen: How do the biblical figures Ruth and Naomi or David and Jonathan resonate with your own experience?
Robertson: David and Jonathan resonate with me more closely.
On the one hand, I used to resist the idea that we should read queerness into ancient texts. It is, admittedly, a historically complicated thing to do. But when I sat down and read the story of David and Jonathan in 1 Samuel, I realized that there is no way anyone can read the entirety of that story and not at least come away with some suspicion that there is something more intimate happening there.
David and Jonathan speak about each other in ways that are clearly homoerotic. David even says, after Jonathan’s death, “Your love for me was greater than that of women.” When Jonathan is killed, David weeps with a broken heart. At the beginning of their relationship, Jonathan strips off his clothes and armor and gives them to David—an act of deep vulnerability and intimacy—and tells him, essentially, “I want you to be protected because I love you.”
Yes, it is there in the text. What is even more fascinating is that this is not a new interpretation. If you go back and look at Jewish writings from thousands of years ago, there are rabbis who were already wrestling with this story—wondering what exactly is going on between David and Jonathan.
When it comes to Ruth and Naomi, I would not go so far as to say that they were lesbian lovers. The text does not support a definitive claim like that. But what I can say is that the purpose of the Book of Ruth—as even conservative scholars acknowledge—is to emphasize God’s radical inclusivity. Ruth is a Moabite, an outsider. She chooses to leave her own people after her husband dies, and stays with her mother-in-law, Naomi, saying: “Your people will be my people, and your God will be my God.” She makes a covenantal statement of loyalty, love, and belonging to Naomi.
I highlight this story in the book primarily because, over the past fifty years, many lesbian women have found deep meaning in this passage. They see themselves reflected in that relationship, in that devotion. Ultimately, what I want to say about these stories is this: it is historically impossible to prove that anyone in the Bible was straight or gay. Many of these stories are mythic in nature or did not happen in the way they appear in the text.
But the purpose of the Bible is not to be a forensic historical document. It is a sacred text that invites people—of every background—to find themselves in its pages. That’s what conservative churches often preach: “This book is for you.” But queer people have long been denied that same invitation.
There is now a growing lineage of people doing what I have done—reinterpreting Scripture through a queer lens. I wrote this book for a new generation, to say: you are allowed to be creative with the Bible. It is not a static, inerrant rulebook. It is a diverse library of stories filled with wisdom, metaphor, and mystery. You are invited to see yourself reflected in the faces of the saints and prophets of Scripture.
I see myself in David and Jonathan. I invite lesbians to see themselves in Ruth and Naomi. I invite transgender people to see themselves in Jacob, whose identity shifts over the course of his life. There are countless doorways into the text.
And I have seen firsthand how healing it is for queer people to be given permission to interpret the Bible from our perspective.
Jacobsen: Yes. That leads us into the next area. You mentioned queerness, and while you did not explicitly use the term, you were speaking about hermeneutics. So let me pose a neologism: queermeneutics—a fusion of “queer” and “hermeneutics.”
How might this kind of interpretive lens not only help people see themselves within their sacred tradition—especially in Christian scripture—but also enrich the broader field of theological discourse?
Say someone is in graduate school for theological studies. They are looking for tools to generate fresh wisdom in a contemporary context. How does this kind of hermeneutic add to the depth and vitality of Christian interpretive tradition, rather than detract from it?
Robertson: Here’s the thing. When I was an evangelical, I was taught there was only one valid hermeneutic—a literalist hermeneutic. That meant reading the Bible as historically and scientifically true in every detail, forever.
But that rigid, literalist approach is a relatively recent innovation. It has only really taken hold in the last few centuries. Even five hundred years after the Reformation, we can see how theological language and interpretive strategies have continued to evolve.
If you look at how the Church Fathers engaged with Scripture, they approached it allegorically. Early Jewish rabbinic traditions also embraced multilayered readings of sacred texts. There was no single hermeneutical lens that believers were required to use. Rather, Scripture was understood as a rich, dynamic text with many dimensions of meaning.
The queer hermeneutic I explore in my new book is not unprecedented—it is deeply rooted in liberation theology. We see how Black hermeneutics transformed Scripture during the Civil Rights Movement. Many Black leaders in the U.S.—Dr. King being one of them—read the Bible through the lens of the Black experience and persecution in America. For them, the Bible became a subversive document—a source of hope and liberation for the oppressed.
Queer hermeneutics follows in that tradition. It asks: What if this sacred text can speak to us? What if we, too, can find ourselves within it? And more radically, What if the very tools that have been weaponized against us can become tools of our liberation?
Take Paul’s words, for example: “Do not be conformed to the pattern of this world, but be transformed by the renewing of your mind.” Conservatives interpret that as a call to moral separation from secular culture, even as a justification for marginalizing queer people. But what if Paul is actually inviting us to resist the world’s conformist systems—gender binaries, rigid social roles, and performative identities—and instead embrace the transformation into our authentic selves?
That is what a queer hermeneutic does. It does not assume that the Bible holds some static, inerrant authority on its own. It acknowledges that every reader brings their own experiences, identities, and questions to the text. The authority lies, in part, with the interpreter. And whether people admit it or not, everyone reads the Bible subjectively.
Queer hermeneutics simply makes that process explicit. I am reading the Bible as a queer person—with a clear, unapologetic agenda of liberation. Not just liberation for LGBTQ+ people, but liberation for everyone from the oppressive systems we’ve all inherited.
So I hope that this book will not only affirm queer readers but also invite heterosexual, cisgender readers to approach the Bible more playfully and creatively. That is how many of our ancestors in faith engaged with Scripture. It is only this modern inerrantist lens that has flattened the Bible into a lifeless, rigid text.
Jacobsen: Now, there is a movement—particularly visible in the United States—of people who claim to have “renounced” their homosexuality. It is sometimes labeled the “ex-gay” movement. While versions of it exist in Hispanic and other global contexts, it seems to be especially acute in American religious subcultures.
These individuals often become active expositors and advocates for a conservative, Religious Right agenda. But within that movement, there have also been high-profile cases where people later admitted they were essentially pretending. Would you speak to that?
Robertson: It was a strange kind of business model—essentially, a way of gaining acceptance and even making a career within Religious Right circles. Many of those individuals who were once publicly “ex-gay” have now renounced their renouncing. They’ve come to accept their sexual orientation after years of inner turmoil and public denial.
Jacobsen: What is your commentary on the ex-gay movement?
Robertson: I take a pretty clear—and honestly, probably the only black-and-white—stance in the book on this issue, because I believe it is dangerous. Over the last decade in ministry, I’ve spent a lot of time with individuals who identified as “ex-gay.” I went through conversion therapy myself. I tried to be “ex-gay.”
Every single person I have ever spoken to—no matter how conservative, no matter how deeply embedded in ex-gay rhetoric—has admitted, at some point, that they still experience same-sex attraction or gender-related conflict. Even those who’ve built platforms on their “deliverance” will quietly say, “I still struggle.” To me, that means you’re not ex-gay. You’re just suppressing or denying something intrinsic to your being.
That said, I support personal autonomy. If someone believes, based on their convictions, that the Bible prohibits homosexual behavior, and they choose celibacy or a mixed-orientation marriage, that is their decision. I may not recommend it, but I won’t deny them the right to make that choice or to share their journey.
What I am firmly against is the message that people have been “healed.” That is where real harm begins—especially for LGBTQ+ youth. When they hear these messages and enter conversion therapy, or pray relentlessly for change, and nothing happens—because sexual orientation is largely innate and unchangeable for most people—it leads to deep psychological distress, depression, and even suicidality. That is horrific. It is immoral. It is unethical.
So I state it clearly in the book: I do not believe “ex-gay” people exist in the way that term is used. If someone chooses celibacy or a heterosexual life while still experiencing same-sex attraction, they should say exactly that. Do not say, “God healed me.” Do not say, “Therapy healed me.” Because, based on both anecdotal experience and the research available, that is simply not how sexuality works for the vast majority of people.
Jacobsen: The only nuance is the fluidity of sexuality, which you touched on briefly.
Robertson: That is the one caveat. Sexuality is fluid for some people. So yes, someone might have once lived what we call a “gay lifestyle” and later find themselves in a heterosexual relationship. But from a psychological perspective, that is not evidence of healing or change. It is simply an expression of a broader spectrum of attraction—something more common for bisexual people.
We must acknowledge that without misrepresenting it. So yes, if someone identifies somewhere along the bisexual spectrum, their relational patterns may shift. But that is not a “cure.” That is human fluidity.
God does not want to “heal” you from your sexual orientation or gender identity. Psychology cannot “heal” you either—because I firmly believe these are innate identities, created by God. Any attempt to change them is, in my view, an affront to the Creator who made us as we are.
Jacobsen: I have interviewed one individual who has gone through conversion therapy—an author who underwent it. Former Canadian Prime Minister Justin Trudeau spearheaded legislation to ban conversion therapy in Canada in 2022. It is a discredited pseudoscientific practice that seeks to change someone’s sexual orientation or gender identity. The practice has been banned in several countries: Malta (2016), Germany (2020), France (2022), Canada (2022), New Zealand (2022), Iceland (2023), Spain (2023), Mexico (2024), Greece (2024), and Belgium (2024). As of 2025, other nations are expected to follow suit. So—policy, legislation, legality, and psychological science all align with your critique and analysis.
Shifting gears—what do you mean by “new tables of grace” in the context of church reform and community building? As a non-Christian who is sometimes invited into Christian spaces, I recognize this is not my faith tradition to reform. But when issues affect broader culture—such as the ex-gay movement—they become fair ground for critique. Still, internally, this is a Christian matter. So, within that context, how do you define “new tables of grace,” and what is your vision for church reform and queer-led community building?
Robertson: Yes, thank you. This really highlights a division in the broader queer Christian movement in the United States right now. There is a sizable portion of the movement that is focused on reforming traditional Christian denominations—working to make them fully affirming, inclusive, and welcoming of LGBTQ+ people. I was part of that effort for a long time, and I continue to bless and respect that work.
But after a decade of doing this work, both through my experience and what I’ve seen in the lives of others, I came to a realization: queer people are not obligated to squeeze ourselves into existing structures that were never built with us in mind. We have the freedom to innovate—to create new expressions of faith that are authentic to queer experience and queer culture.
We already see this kind of innovation happening across many traditions. For example, there are cultural and ethnic expressions of Christianity—Black churches, Latinx churches, Korean churches—each of which reflects the lived experience of its community. There are also countless denominational variations. What I am advocating is not the creation of “gay churches,” per se—though they do exist, and I love and respect them deeply.
Jacobsen: The reviews do tend to say they’re fabulous.
Robertson: [Laughing] Truly! They are. And that joy and celebration are part of the spiritual power of those spaces.
But what I’m saying is this: many queer people—and many deconstructed people more broadly—are tired of fighting for a seat at a table that was not built for us. We are not interested in begging to be accepted anymore. We’re not here to argue theology every day just to prove our worth. We are ready to build new tables—what I call “new tables of grace”—where we decide the terms, where radical welcome is foundational, not aspirational.
These tables are not just for queer folks. They’re for anyone who has been cast out, burned out, or disillusioned by institutional religion. The vision is expansive: spiritual communities that are inclusive, justice-centered, rooted in love, and unafraid of creativity. They are sacred spaces where we gather not to debate our worth, but to celebrate it.
That is not what our faith is about. So, in the book, my invitation is this: yes, you can go to progressive Christian communities today. The majority of mainline denominations in the United States now affirm LGBTQ+ people. There are churches and spaces—virtually in every city—where queer people can walk in and be fully seen, embraced, and invited to show up in their fullness. These communities are often experimental. They are actively exploring what Christian spirituality might look like in new, vibrant, inclusive ways.
But I also say this: maybe the institution of the Church is not where you will flourish. And that is okay. You do not need to belong to the institutional Church in order to follow Jesus or live a meaningful spiritual life.
I want queer people to know they have permission to step outside of the Church and still live rich spiritual lives. There are new forms of spiritual community taking shape all around us—in culture, in art, in chosen families. For me, literally dancing in a queer bar on a Saturday night can be a transcendent spiritual experience—if I bring that lens to it. In fact, it can be as sacred as any evangelical worship service I attended in my past.
What I am trying to emphasize is this: let’s stop begging for a seat at a table that was never built for us. Let’s build our own table—the one God has already prepared for us. Because the Church does not get to decide who is welcome at God’s table. That table belongs to God, and God alone. And God has already invited all of us.
Jacobsen: We’ll be kicking off in three minutes. Last question—this is probably one you’ve been asked many times. What are your favorite Bible passages? Also, which version do you prefer?
Robertson: I would say the New Revised Standard Version, Updated Edition (NRSVue), which came out recently, is currently the most accurate and inclusive English translation. I love it. It also removes language that was inaccurately translated as referring to homosexuality in older versions.
My favorite passage is the story of the Ethiopian eunuch in the Book of Acts. One of the first people baptized into the Christian Church was a first-century sexual and gender minority—an Ethiopian eunuch, a dark-skinned person from a different culture. That was a profound realization for me.
Though it is a brief passage, the story is incredibly powerful. The author of Acts clearly intended to demonstrate that God’s love—through the Jesus movement—was always meant to transcend boundaries. It was meant to dismantle divisions between clean and unclean, insider and outsider. According to the Hebrew Bible, eunuchs were not allowed in the temple. And yet, the Ethiopian eunuch becomes the first person baptized into the Christian Church.
He has traditionally been referred to as Simeon. I like to think of Simeon—the Ethiopian eunuch—as the first queer saint. He represents the radical inclusivity of God’s kingdom. His identity encompasses differences in race, language, culture, gender, and sexuality. It is a stunning and profoundly beautiful moment in Scripture. And, unsurprisingly, I never heard it preached on in any conservative church I attended growing up.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Brandan, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate it. It was a real pleasure to meet you—and thank you for sharing your insights.
Robertson: Thank you so much. I appreciate the conversation.
Jacobsen: Wishing you a wonderful day down there in your American whatever-you-want-to-call-it—I’ll be here in my soul-fresh paradise show.
Robertson: [Laughing] I love it. Enjoy it up there.
Jacobsen: Cheers. Bye.
Robertson: See you!
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/14
Clifford Myers, Canadian comedian and president of the Canadian Association of Stand-up, Sketch, and Improv Comedians (CASC). Myers discussed CASC’s founding in 2017, initiated by Sandra Battaglini to achieve federal recognition for comedians as artists. CASC’s recent partnership with the Canadian Freelance Union, part of Unifor, provides comedians with health benefits, contract support, professional development, and a national talent directory. Myers emphasized comedy’s professionalization, the need for accessible resources, and the growing international interest in Canada’s model. He advocates for an open-source approach to empower comedians worldwide as both artists and entrepreneurs.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Clifford Myers. He is a Canadian comedian, writer, and advocate dedicated to empowering artists in the comedy industry. He is president of the Canadian Association of Stand-up, Sketch, and Improv Comedians (CASC).
He champions comedians’ rights and recognition as essential contributors to Canadian culture. Myers was key in forging a landmark partnership between CASC and the Canadian Freelance Union (CFU) affiliated with Unifor. For transparency, I am also a member of Unifor.
Myers helped establish this partnership to expand access to benefits, protections, and support for freelance performers. Known for his engaging stage presence and sharp wit, Myers blends his creative talents with passionate advocacy to foster a more inclusive, professional, and sustainable comedy landscape across Canada. He is the founder of The Other Comedy Company.
What motivated the formation of the Canadian Association of Stand-up, Sketch, and Improv Comedians in 2017? Also, how does the new partnership between CASC and Unifor benefit freelance comedians?
Clifford Myers: In 2017, Sandra Battaglini began this movement by writing a petition to the federal government, advocating for Canadian comedians to be officially recognized as artists at the federal level. At that time, comedians were not eligible for arts grants and other funding streams available to other artists because stand-up and comedic performances were not formally recognized as art forms in Canada.
This issue galvanized many comedians. As Sandra pursued this cause, she received growing support from the comedy community and connected with various lobbyists and arts advocacy groups. These advisers encouraged her to consider forming a formal association to represent comedians.
Initially, Sandra resisted, noting, “I’m just a comedian. I am speaking out because it matters, but I do not know if this is something I want to take on fully.” However, with widespread support from comedians across Canada, she founded the Canadian Association of Stand-up, Sketch, and Improv Comedians (CASC).
At the outset, the organization’s main goal was to achieve recognition of comedy as a legitimate art form at the federal level. Over time, the mission expanded to advocate for better working conditions, fairer access to funding, and stronger labor protections for comedians.
One key issue for Canadian comedians is the severe imbalance in cross-border work access. For an American comedian to perform in Canada, the process is relatively inexpensive — typically requiring a permit that costs around CAD 230, which can be lower depending on circumstances. However, for a Canadian comedian to perform legally in the United States, they generally require a P-1 or O-1 visa, which can cost between $5,000 and USD 10,000 or more, depending on legal fees and application complexity. This significant barrier limits international opportunities for Canadian comedians.
Through the partnership with the Canadian Freelance Union (CFU), CASC members now have access to contract templates, dispute resolution support, insurance options, and professional resources — a significant step toward establishing a stronger foundation for comedians working independently across Canada.
Jacobsen: And what, traditionally, have Canadian comedians been doing to try to get work in a larger country right next door, where American comedians can get work here freely?
Myers: We have had to go through a “circus visa” — we had to pretend we were clowns. You know? There has always been an imbalance in getting work across the border.
You have to look at our landscape: we have a country that is two and a half times the size of the United States but has a population roughly the size of California. We are a small industry.
To get work, we need funding from our federal government or streamlined processes that allow us exposure to the American market. Neither of those things is happening.
Our association started with the question: How do we legitimize comedy as an art form and a craft? We are comedy workers—this is our profession.
That is when Unifor came into the picture through their chapter program. We were not outright unionizing but became a community chapter to streamline comedians’ benefits.
Right now, Canadian comedians cannot access things like dental benefits or grievance support — none of that was available. As we continued our mission for the legitimacy of comedy in Canada, it became much more about being recognized for what we truly are: freelance comedy workers.
That is where the Canadian Freelance Union came into this partnership. We saw a way to bolster their organization through our involvement and, in return, gain access to a streamlined process for accessing professional resources.
Now, we are going to be able to educate Canadian comedians. We are creating an education hub where comedians can learn how to set their rates, negotiate deals, and set themselves up for health benefits — all the things needed to operate as professionals.
The more people we have made a living in Canadian comedy, the more visible it becomes as a viable career path. It grows the art form and preserves a part of our culture.
This partnership has been a win-win across the board: now we have staff, access to PR and media, and new avenues for work. Even directly with Unifor, we will host quarterly showcases for our comedians, helping them land more corporate gigs.
We are raising your ability to get work, raise your profile, and learn and refine your craft. This was a very strategic maneuver, completely mission-aligned. Right? Throughout the process, which took over a year, we kept saying, “This is getting us one step closer to what Sandra was talking about from the very beginning.”
That has always been the entire direction of this organization. It has never been anything else. It has always been about equipping and empowering Canadian comedians. It continues to do so.
Now, we are even at the point where small groups of people from different parts of the world — places like South Africa and Ireland — are contacting us about our association and asking how they might create something similar in their countries. That is something we want to open-source: to share our process, how we approached advocacy, and how we partnered strategically so we can collaborate internationally, maybe even with comedians in the United States at some point.
This partnership is just one small step toward much bigger initiatives in the future. We want to start advocating more forcefully for federal arts funding and streamlined passport processes, making it much easier for Canadian comedians to get work.
Jacobsen: If you have a list of services — in more concrete terms, outside of visa and cross-border work — what resources and support systems can CASC members now access through Unifor?
Myers: So now CASC members have immediate access to benefits and discounts we did not have before. One of the most significant additions is a national directory, where comedians can create profiles to advertise their services to producers and bookers who are explicitly looking for unionized talent.
So that is a big one — it is opening us up to an entirely new employment arm, which is incredible.
CASC members now have access to other services, including contract advice, advanced grievance support, advocacy and representation, and affordable health and dental insurance—a major one. Many comedians have struggled for years to get dental insurance. Members can now access home and auto insurance discounts, commercial liability insurance, union savings programs, and educational opportunities.
This covers exactly what any professional worker would need. If you were going to get a job somewhere, you would expect benefits, professional development opportunities, and certain perks from being part of that profession. Right?
In our case, having a relationship with Unifor and having access to that internal directory is a massive perk—one that no other comedy organization in Canada currently has. And we have that access as an association.
It is opening the door to corporate work in a way that has never been open for comedians.
Jacobsen: How does the partnership legitimize the profession of stand-up comedians in Canada?
For instance, if we look at tier-two or even tier-one comedians, many of them talk about their history of, let us call it, “coming out” to their families as comedians—saying, “My dream is to become a comedian” instead of becoming a doctor, lawyer, engineer, astrophysicist, or astronaut.
The typical response, especially among immigrant families that have high hopes for their children’s professional futures, is often horror—because those traditional careers are culturally seen as high-status, high-income paths to elevating the family legacy in one generation.
How does this professionalization improve the status of comedians and others in the comedy profession?
Myers: That is a great question.
I would scope it out this way: when you first look at what brings someone to the comedy profession, anyone can walk up to an open mic. Everyone walks up there for a reason—and it is almost never because everything is going well and they are completely healthy and stable. That is not what brings someone to a comedy stage.
What brings people is a sense of curiosity and passion. Maybe someone says, “I do not know exactly what I want to do right now, but I know there is something here.” You can have a sense of impact through comedy — not just bringing joy to people but sometimes making a real difference.
Some people go into stand-up to advocate for things they care deeply about. Others want to perform, to entertain, to create. But you are right — it has not traditionally been seen as a professional art form because the path is so narrow. There is no clear pipeline where you study for four years, get a degree, and then level up through a structured system.
The truth is, the craft of comedy requires repetition — going over it repeatedly and performing live repeatedly. If you are only doing those repetitions in a pub in front of two people, you are only going to reach a certain ceiling. You cannot advance past that without broader support structures and opportunities.
And so, having an opportunity to work with comedians who have been doing it much longer is like the apprenticeship or mentorship system.
When we open doors for more corporate shows, that is truly what we are doing here, right? We now have this internal directory through Unifor, and it is going to open doors to more corporate work within CASC. That corporate work will be available to comedians who have been performing long enough and who have the material and the skill set to do it well.
But comedians who are not there yet can feature on those shows, participate in these showcases, and learn from the more experienced comedians. They can be given apprenticeship opportunities, actually learning in an environment that sharpens their skills—that gives them the opportunity to see what it is like to perform for a room of 200 union workers.
It is very different from performing for two people at the Fox and Firkin on a Tuesday night. You know?
Legitimizing the profession is similar to legitimizing entrepreneurship or any kind of freelance work: it is about ownership, right?
Yes, you are a performer, but you are also a one-person business. You have the ability to create proprietary material — you can make specials, you can write books, you can join projects, you can participate in productions. There are all sorts of different ways to generate income. It is a very diversified industry.
Now, with the education hub we are developing, comedians will have access to resources teaching them how to do that. The truth is that comedy attracts all kinds of people—not just those saying, “Sorry, Dad, I do not want to be a lawyer; I want to go into comedy.”
Some people are smart enough to be lawyers but do not go through the traditional academic pathways because they have ADHD, dyslexia, or face other barriers. Comedy offers them a different way to showcase their intelligence and make an impact.
There is never a downside to becoming a better communicator. However you frame it, comedy teaches you how to communicate with human beings — people who agree with you, people who disagree with you, sleepy crowds, rowdy crowds. It gives you life experience that you will not get at any university or college.
Mic drop. [Laughing]
Realistically, the way I look at it is this: I think it was Jimmy Carr who said, “We are all out for ourselves, but we are all in this together.”
And that is very true. It is an independent path — Scott’s comedy road would be different from Clifford’s, but we are in this together. We can support each other collectively. We can gather, share resources, and lift each other.
We share opportunities. We open doors to education, to learning from one another, and to developing our skill sets. That is the path to professionalism. That is the path to ownership.
That is the path to being an actual freelancer in Canada through comedy.
Jacobsen: Okay, shifting a bit — at some points, you mentioned meeting communications, community chapters, the broader landscape. That reminds me of a deeper press release about Nora Loreto. What is her vision in this?
Myers: Yeah, so Nora is passionate. She is deeply committed to what it takes to be a freelance worker and has much experience with collectivizing efforts.
She comes from a “strength in numbers” perspective—the more we collaborate and create partnerships, the more strength and bargaining power we have.
When we approached her and started talking about some of the federal-level issues we wanted to lobby and advocate for, she approached it very much from a frontline perspective: we will roll up our sleeves and get our hands dirty.
As a freelancer and an advocate for freelancers, Nora is a top-tier professional who understands that if you work independently, you must be equipped. You might not always feel prepared, but you can be fitted.
That is the real gap for many freelancers in any field. When people do not know what they are doing yet, the difference often comes down to whether they have the resources to figure it out.
That is the definition of resourcefulness. Do you know how to get what you need to do what you are trying to do?
And that is what she is trying to create: a pipeline for freelancers—whether in Industry A or Industry B—so that even if they already have the skill set, ability, and passion, they also have the actual resources and systems to succeed.
They want to do it. They want to work independently. They want that self-ownership. But they do not know how to get there. They do not know how to do it well.
This collection of professionals is a community of people working at different levels and at different stages of their freelance careers. Seeing that in action is a kind of collective learning. It is like a school in itself.
You can observe: “Oh, this person set up their website this way. That person markets their freelance business like this.” Now that comedians are going to be able to get involved, Nora appreciates that we are bringing even more fun, collaboration, play, and community-centred activities into the mix.
I think that is where Nora and I align — we see the independent and the collective as one thing. Right? These independents are part of the collective but also maintain their own identity.
And we love that idea. If you have ever been to any kind of internal meeting for a union or a similar organization—whether it is Unifor or anywhere else—you know it is typically pretty stuffy. You go to an AGM, and it is, “Okay, let us go through the docket, point by point.”
Now, having comedians who can emcee these events, participate, and bring energy, personality, and community-building into the room — creates real synergy.
We are building a community around the mission. It is not just transactional. It is experiential.
We can make an impact. We can get involved in different ways. And that is what fires people up for involvement.
Especially if you are a freelancer, it would be easy to say, “I am doing my own thing. Why would I want to be a part of anything else? I am good over here.”
That is an easy thing to say. But what will be attractive is, “Hey, they are having much fun over there. They are working, they are developing, they are getting better, and they are having a good time doing it.”
I see nothing wrong with that dream and that vision — and that is what Nora presented to us.
And listen, I have talked to her a few times. We have had some very long meetings. She is passionate.
She gets her fingers into the dirt and keeps digging. That is the kind of person we are excited to work with.
Jacobsen: Earlier, you mentioned South Africa and Ireland. The most prominent South African comedian people are probably thinking of — and you are already aware — is Trevor Noah from The Daily Show and, of course, his wider career.
He is exceptionally talented with cultural commentary, language play, and impersonations for comedic — and even a little educational — effects. In that way, he edges a bit closer to a Dave Chappelle or George Carlin style, although Chappelle says he is not a great impersonator.
Regardless, when you have three different regions now — North America through your current partnership, Ireland from a Western European perspective reaching out, and South Africa representing an African continental connection — what does that say to you about the increasingly global reach of comedy today? Not just as a legitimate art form, which seems increasingly recognized, but as a legitimate profession?
Myers: It is so interesting when you get into a profession that you realize is a global language. People laugh all over the world, in every single culture. And in every culture, they have a different approach to what makes them laugh.
When I meet comedians from different backgrounds, I am always curious and interested. For example, if you talk to an Indian comedian, they have to adhere to many customs—especially if they are performing within India—so their humour tends to skew differently.
What is happening within Canada right now is that comedians are collectivizing — and that is drawing the attention of other smaller communities internationally.
Realistically, Canada has a deep cultural history in comedy. We have played a massive role in legitimizing comedy as an actual art form.
We have had the largest comedy festival in the world in Montreal — Just for Laughs. We had one of the biggest comedy chains in the world with Yuck Yucks. We have produced some of the most considerable talents in the world: Norm Macdonald, John Candy, Catherine O’Hara.
Our fingerprints are all over the history of comedy.
So it makes sense that our fingerprints are all over the current movement, too — especially when legitimizing professional comedy work.
You have these smaller comedy communities worldwide that see what we are doing in Canada and think, “Hey, what are they up to over there?”
Canada might seem like a small country from the outside, but we are always up to something when it comes to comedy.
So they reach out — not necessarily to partner, not necessarily to have a direct relationship — but to learn.
It shows us that there has to be a level of transparency in what we are doing right now. Because what we are doing is impacting other regions across the world, not just Canada.
It is amazing to see the passion of these comedians—and it is not just young comedians. It is people of all ages. They are individuals who want to make their communities laugh and help scale the art form where they are.
So they are coming to us for open-source education: “How did you do this?” “How did you advocate?”
And we are very transparent. We tell them, “We started by writing a letter. Then, we got involved with Members of Parliament. Here is how creating an association works in Canada. Here is technically how you go the nonprofit route. Here is how you create memberships.”
We are open-sourcing what we do so that other places can learn from it.
When we launch the educational resource hub as part of this partnership, one of our first projects will include that information so that other communities can start creating their own associations.
We might not partner directly, but we will create materials to help equip them because we believe there is strength in numbers. I strongly agree with Nora on that.
We see this as another opportunity: another notch on the comedy pioneer belt. It is cool that Canada continues to be a comedy innovator — and others recognize that.
They see that when Canadians get involved in comedy, we put our money where our mouth is and get it done.
So when I talk to these other comedians, I see students. I see people who are ready to learn and want to understand how we are building this.
Of course, there is a disconnect. I do not know all the ins and outs of their regions, and I do not know exactly what they can or cannot do—how to start an association in Ireland, for example, because I do not live there.
But I can help with research and connect people with resources. That is really the spirit behind what we are doing.
I am always happy to pass any research I have forward to anyone interested. I am constantly doing that—for myself, the association, and my business. I believe in this very much.
During the pandemic, I worked at Shopify, which has a very much open-source builder mentality. I brought that mindset into the leadership of this organization: We should open-source a lot of what we are building because we believe in it.
This idea of open-sourced comedy as a business has not been introduced to the industry before.
Comedy has always been full of sacred cows and gatekeepers — “Oh, you have to know someone to get into Just for Laughs,” or “You have to sit on Johnny Carson’s couch,” that kind of thing.
And now we are saying: or you can do it yourself. You can create your audience. You can build your brand. You can have your couch, be your own Johnny, and start your own CFL instead of waiting for someone else’s JFL.
We are in a different time now. We are in a time of builders.
When I see this globalization of comedy, I see hungry builders. Do you want to call them comedians? Sure. But I am calling them entrepreneurs.
They are freelancers. They are people who want to build something that has an impact. And just like any entrepreneur, they are going to be gritty and hungry—and a big part of that is making sure they are fed.
That is where the education piece comes in.
Jacobsen: Clifford, thank you very much—not the big red dog—for taking the time today to share your expertise. It was nice to meet you.
Myers: Scott, it’s a pleasure to meet you. You’re a really interesting guy, too. You have all those deep-cut comedy references.
I look forward to talking to you again.
Jacobsen: That is kind. All right. You take care.
Myers: Later, buddy. Bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/14
Dr. Erica Kalkut, PhD, ABPP is Executive Clinical Director at LifeStance Health and leads Psychological and Neuropsychological Testing Services. A board-certified pediatric neuropsychologist, she specializes in developmental, cognitive, and emotional assessments. Her work integrates clinical practice, research, and advocacy to improve access and quality in pediatric behavioral health across diverse medical and neurological conditions. She notes that early mental health challenges often go unnoticed due to access barriers and children’s increasing ability to mask emotions. Parents can foster resilience and emotional intelligence by offering consistent, judgment-free presence and quality time. Schools must also play a role in identifying and intervening early. Kalkut advocates for daily device-free parent-child interactions and child-led, developmentally appropriate clinical approaches to promote healthy emotional development in today’s fast-paced, tech-driven society.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are the essential emotional and psychological needs of children today?
Dr. Erica Kalkut: Children, as always, need to feel a sense of belonging and stability. In order to develop a healthy self esteem, they need to be able to feel cared for by their loved ones. However, children today are also seeking acceptance and interest from a much larger circle outside of their immediate family, friends, and trusted adults. Feeling relevant and connected to a larger virtual world has been increasingly important to how today’s youth develops their emotional wellbeing.
Jacobsen: Across inpatient, outpatient, and sub-acute settings, what are common gaps in children’s mental health supports?
Kalkut: Access continues to be an issue, as many parents report that they have difficulty connecting with a trusted therapist or mental health professional. Children have also become increasingly skilled at masking their concerns, perhaps in part because of their digital interactions, which can be a barrier to making expected progress once they receive intervention.
Jacobsen: How can parents and caregivers foster resilience and emotional intelligence?
Kalkut: Being present, available, and open to your children should remain as top priorities for parents. Showing your child that you will listen to them and be there for them, no matter their flaws or imperfections, is one of the best ways to foster resilience and promote emotional development. This is also important to counterbalance social media, which on the contrary, your child is learning only accepts certain images or impressions that your child portrays even if this is not their authentic selves.
Jacobsen: What is the role of educational institutions in promoting strong mental health?
Kalkut: Many children show resilience, even when their mental health is suffering, and their first signs of struggle often appear at school. Schools need to not only know how to look for signs that indicate that a child is struggling, but also how to intervene with that child and their family in order to increase mental health.
Jacobsen: What are early signs a child may be struggling with mental health issues?
Kalkut: Changes in behavior, thinking, reactions, and social engagement are common signs that a child has psychological needs. However, there are often physical indications like changes in appetite, sleep, aches, and pains that show up. It is hard because many of these signs, when they are mild or transient, are also common during childhood and adolescence. Parents should look to see if there is a pattern, however, and follow their gut if they believe their child is behaving or responding in ways that seem out of character. It is always better to err on the side of checking in with your child or talking with a professional should you have concerns.
Jacobsen: How have digital and parasocial relationships affected children’s interpersonal skills and emotional regulation?
Kalkut: (see above answers).
Jacobsen: What practical strategies are recommended for a mentally healthy home environment?
Kalkut: In an increasingly busy world, make sure to carve out 1:1 time with your children every day. This is not just taking your child to their activities or getting them through their routine – it means carving out time to truly be present with your child each day, with no devices or distractions. Even 5 minutes can be impactful, but ideally 15 minutes to play a game, have a conversation, go for a walk, sing a song, or do something silly and unexpected together can help you and your child to feel connected! It is a 5 to 15 minute investment into their emotional health (and yours).
Jacobsen: How do you ensure clinical practices are child-centered and developmentally appropriate?
Kalkut: Approach conversations with openness and curiosity so that the child can lead the way and share how they are thinking about things.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/13
The DFW Independent Coalition of Kitty-loving Satanists formed after a schism in The Satanic Temple (TST) in May 2024, when its founder fired a respected minister over a meme. Many congregations, including DFW, chose independence due to perceived authoritarianism. The group embraces non-theistic Satanism, emphasizing science, reason, and rebellion against tyranny. Nightingale is the current leader. They maintain a welcoming community, particularly for marginalized groups, and uphold modified TST tenets. Their activism focuses on community service rather than stunts. Media portrayals of Satanists remain biased. The Coalition is restructuring and expanding, with engagement through Facebook and Discord. A related podcast, Satanists Are People Too, provides insights.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What inspired the formation of the DFW Independent Coalition of Kitty-loving Satanists, and how has the group developed since its creation?
Nightingale: The formation of the DFW Independent Coalition of Kitty-loving Satanists was a FAFO situation that, honestly, if answered in full, could fill an entire book. We were previously a local congregation of TST (The Satanic Temple) in Dallas, Fort Worth. Back in May of 2024, a great schism was initiated by the founder of TST in which he fired a very respected minister from another congregation because of a meme he posted and didn’t approve of. He pitched a hissy fit in a very childish and authoritarian way, and anyone who stood up for the minister was also fired. Within a month or two, over half of the congregation heads were fired, and more chose to leave alone. This not only included U.S. congregations but overseas congregations too. Many of those who stayed and defended the founder’s actions became very hostile, and their true colours emerged. TST was no longer a safe space nor a community-driven religion, and it lost sight of the tenets it claimed to be founded upon. Several leaders within the organization also quit due to the founder’s actions, including the director of the ministry. This major schism caused much unease and painted a clear picture of the path in which TST was headed. Because of this, our local congregation members voted and decided to leave TST and become independent, as did multiple other congregations. Since becoming independent, we have maintained the local community has grown in numbers and continues to thrive.
Jacobsen: How does the group define its non-theistic approach to Satanism?
Nightingale: Non-theistic is a nonsupernaturalist view of the world, turning to science as an arbiter of truth claims. Satan is a literary metaphor for rebellion against tyranny, and the symbols and rituals of Satanism sanctify personal sovereignty, reason, and compassion and give context and meaning to our community.
Jacobsen: How does the Coalition incorporate empathy and reason into its discussions and activities?
Nightingale: Part of what led most people to TST was their 7 Tenets. The first tenant states, “One should strive to act with compassion and empathy toward all creatures in accordance with reason.” The tenants are still well-respected within independent congregations, although they have now been slightly modified to avoid lawsuits. Empathy and reason are part of the core of our congregation. A lot of individuals who are drawn to Satanism find their way here because they were outcasted from elsewhere, mostly in part of their non-conforming, “non-Christian” values. Many are part of the LBGQT+ community and other marginalized groups. We embrace these individuals with open arms, accept everyone for who they are, and encourage individuality. We listen, provide resources for those needing help, and stand up to arbitrary authority.
Jacobsen: How are the Coalition’s rules and guidelines enforced?
Nightingale: Satanism is very individualistic, and there is no one way to practice it. Though we are very accepting of many forms, we do not tolerate bigotry or racism. One could have many red flags, and if you display one, you are banned. Part of our job as leaders is to protect our members; as you can imagine, there are many infiltrators. We attempt to screen individuals initially, but some do slip by. It usually doesn’t take long to find those who don’t belong and remove them from our community.
Jacobsen: What were the circumstances for the departure from TST as an independent coalition?
Nightingale: I answered most of that in question 1, but to reiterate, it was a unanimously voted-on decision by vetted congregation members to leave and go independent based on the actions of the founder of TST and their direction moving forward.
Jacobsen: How does the “kitty-loving” aspect contribute to the group’s identity and community culture? I endorse this very much as a fellow non-theist Satanist.
Nightingale: So that’s actually a funny story. For some reason, Satanists love acronyms; I mean, who doesn’t? Once we decided to go independent, we knew we had to act fast, rebrand ourselves and create new online spaces. Once, one of our leaders came up with the name DFW Independent Coalition of Kitty-loving Satanists, or D.I.C.K.S. Yes, we do love cats, but that’s just what was chosen to complete the acronym. We absolutely knew it would be temporary, and we are close to finalizing a new permanent name and logo for ourselves.
Jacobsen: How can folks engage with left-hand path communities in the Dallas-Fort Worth area?
Nightingale: The first step would be to join our Facebook. It’s currently called DFW Independent Coalition of Kitty-loving Satanists. You can request to join and answer a few simple screening questions. Once approved, you will be part of the community. We have once-a-month and sometimes twice-month in-person socials in the area and monthly online socials. Currently, almost every activity we do is posted on Facebook. After attending three of those and getting to know more about you other than what’s on your Facebook, you can be extended a Discord invite and join the daily discussions on multiple topics with us. That is the current process.
Jacobsen: How is the media portraying Satanists in the States now?
Nightingale: As you can imagine, the Trump administration acted very poorly. As mentioned earlier, most of our members are of marginalized groups, and every day, their rights are being threatened if not taken away completely. We take measures to protect ourselves and loved ones, and no one is forced to be public about it. The vast majority of us use Satanisms (names we have created to protect our actual identity), and if anyone tries to or does dox someone, you are banned immediately. You control who knows any information or your association with us. Media has always been and will always be what it is: a way to push a specific narrative. Every media is different and biased; Fox News hates anything not far right-wing Christian extremists, while MSNBC will report on the positive aspects of TST. AP is as neutral as it gets with the media; they seem to report facts with the least bias. As far as entertainment media goes, Satanists are nothing like those portrayed in the movies. There are always those outliers that might come close, but they are not associated with us. We do not perform sacrifices, pray to Satan, sell our souls, or drink blood. We don’t even believe in a literal Satan (or God, for that matter) or souls. We are everyday people who work regular jobs, and most of us are private with our Satanism, and you wouldn’t ever know it unless we told you.
Jacobsen: What are the group’s plans or goals?
Nightingale: Since the schism, we have been in the restructuring phase and are building the framework to become more involved with the community. There is a discussion about joining a larger coalition of congregations and joining more causes. Right now, we continue to be a resource for those in need and help each other just as any church should. We will continue to grow and build a stronger foundation so that others can find a safe place within our community.
Jacobsen: Satanists have consistently done some of the most creative and fun activism. What would be an ideal activist stunt or presentation to you?
Nightingale: So we’re not interested in doing stunts; the current political climate is far too dangerous for that nonsense. Activism is a strong aspect of Satanism in the form of standing up to arbitrary authority and defending those who can’t defend themselves. The Trump administration has made it mainstream and “acceptable” to be a public bigot and has given the green light for closeted nazis to come out. My take on that is Fuck Nazis, but I don’t expect any member of our congregation to go head-to-head with one. Instead, we like to practice activism by helping out with food pantries, un-housed initiatives, picking up trash on the freeway, and, in my case, providing healthcare in lower-income areas. There are many ways to give back to the community, and providing resources to those in need does the most good within the community. Anyone interested in learning more about everyday Satanists, there’s an amazing podcast that our congregation head hosts called “Satanists are People too.” It can be found on Substack and Spotify.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Nightingale.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/13
Dr. Joe-Joe McManus, a renowned antiracism advocate and educator, shares insights from decades of work in education, diversity leadership, and institutional reform. Raised in a multicultural household, his early experiences shaped his antiracist values. He emphasizes teaching children critical thinking and active opposition to oppression from a young age, especially given modern societal influences like media and systemic racism. He recounts shifting from viewing racism as rooted in ignorance to understanding it as a systemic construct. McManus advocates reeducation, citing personal transformation and the necessity of providing youth with tools to question oppressive norms and build inclusive, just communities.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are joined by Dr. Joe-Joe McManus, a nationally recognized antiracism advocate, educator, and author. His work bridges personal experience with institutional transformation. Raised in a predominantly white town south of Boston, he grew up in a multicultural, interreligious family and witnessed firsthand the impacts of racism and antisemitism. These early experiences—particularly those involving his adopted African American brother, Kacey—shaped his lifelong commitment to equity and justice.
Over the past three decades, Dr. McManus has served in various roles across higher education, including positions at HBCUs (Historically Black Colleges and Universities), Ivy League institutions, and international universities. He has held faculty, administrative, and executive positions, notably serving as Chief Diversity Officer at California State University San Marcos. His work advises education, corporate, and nonprofit leaders on antiracism, inclusiveness, and leadership. In his book A Brother’s Insight: Guidance on Defeating Racism and Advancing Freedom, he offers a deeply personal narrative that combines actionable strategies for dismantling racism. Motivated by his daughter’s challenge to do more in the fight against racism, he provides readers with tools to make everyday choices rooted in justice and equity.
]He is an influential voice on diversity, equity, and inclusion, serving on multiple boards and speaking at national and international forums. You can learn more about him at drjoejoe.com. So, Dr. Joe-Joe—Jojo Dancer, your life is calling. Now, what do kids need? I mean that in two senses.
First, in the perennial sense, kids have always needed certain things—care, safety, and provision. Second, in the modern sense, the introduction of the Internet and social media has transformed childhood over the past quarter-century. What do kids need in this newer phase of American civilization, where so much is exposed?
Dr. Joe-Joe McManus: Overall, kids need to be learning critical thinking skills more than ever. These skills have been removed from many curricula and much factual knowledge, particularly in the U.S. education system. It also needs to be an active process.
Young people need to learn antiracism. They need to develop an anti-oppression perspective. The reason is that we have slipped into this notion of being “non-racist”—as if staying neutral means you are not part of the problem. That is not true. Historically, those who do nothing have often been the most significant part of the problem. They allow the status quo—especially around racism, antisemitism, and other forms of oppression—to persist. That has been true across ages and different types of oppression.
So, teaching children to be actively antiracist—to oppose homophobia, heterosexism, antisemitism, and all forms of oppression—is essential. They need to be conscious of these issues, identify them, and then actively learn how to oppose them in age-appropriate and constructive ways. I believe that is what young people truly need to know today.
Jacobsen: And they need to learn from a younger age than most people think. When it comes to healthy development—how can things go wrong if a kid goes off track? There are many ways to live healthily during childhood and adolescence, but when things go off track, how can kids be reclaimed? Because my understanding is that if they get into gang life, for instance, then it becomes tough for them to leave. It becomes a new system of love, structure, hierarchy, leadership, and mentorship.
McManus: Sure. I think it is a similar issue. We could even look at white supremacists as a kind of gang, using the framework you’re describing. When it comes to antisemitism and other forms of oppression, it is difficult—it’s almost like a deprogramming process at first. You have to counter the narratives normalized in someone’s mind. That’s why so many people hold beliefs about race, religion, gender identity, and other issues that seem so illogical.
That’s one of the things I talk about in the book—how logic often gets set aside. It becomes almost a kind of faith. People believe in white supremacy, antisemitism, homophobia, heterosexism—in the way others might feel in a religious doctrine. So even when it defies logic, it persists as belief. You’ll see people argue with you even though there’s no logical path to follow. The facts do not support them. The research does not support them. Critical thinking skills are often left at the door regarding these belief systems. So yes, it can be tough to get through.
There was a researcher and theorist a long time ago—I believe his name was Morris Massey—who talked about the need for a “significant emotional event” to dislodge a belief that someone holds as an adult. That’s why it is so important to have these conversations with young people while developing their belief systems. Because that is precisely what we are dealing with: belief systems. We often refer to white supremacy as a “perspective,” but it is not—it is a belief system.
nd we have to see it and address it as such when we’re working with people who have been indoctrinated into these ideas, which are coming from many places. That’s why it is essential to have an actively antiracist, anti-oppression approach to helping children understand the world around them. If none of those toxic ideas came from media, schools, or other sources, we might not need such a deliberate approach. But they are. And that’s how we got lulled into the false idea that being “not part of the problem” is somehow enough. It is not. We have to counter those narratives.
Sometimes that happens through media—we do get some counternarratives. But young people need to read more. They need to be taught actively to oppose oppression. When we understand oppressive ideologies as belief systems, figuring out how to counter them becomes easier. That does not make it easy, of course. Even in antiracist households, it can be not easy to counter all that is coming at a young person.
And now, in the United States, we are dealing with book bans, edited and censored curricula, and the removal of African American history courses—or anything that even hints at social justice, according to some. So, what we are left with is much mythology in our education system. And young people believe their teachers.
And they are not taught enough to question what they are being taught, to ask what they are reading, and to seek other perspectives. Until that happens, we will need active parents and communities to teach differently—and hopefully, institutions that will step up somehow. But right now, of course, we are dealing with an intense racist and white supremacist backlash.
Jacobsen: When it comes to social awareness and child development, when are kids typically looking outward enough—not necessarily abstractly, but having a coherent sense of what is happening, at least in their friend group—so that some sociological analysis can be presented at a level that is age-appropriate and grade-appropriate, wherever the child happens to be?
McManus: Well, certainly by school age. One of the key movements in anti-bias and antiracist education emerged from early elementary educators who recognized exactly what you are talking about: that young people are perceiving and internalizing what is happening around them. I am sure this happens even before school age. I am not a psychologist, but young people always absorb this. They start to develop an idea of who they are within the social constructs they are part of. And those constructs are defined by everyone around them.
They fall in line very early and see themselves as whatever they are being told—whatever category they are placed into. Whether it be male, white, Christian, or any other identity, they understand social location early on. Even if they cannot articulate it in those terms, they are beginning to comprehend where they fit within the hierarchies built into much of our society.
Jacobsen: What is something, over your last three decades of work, that you used to hold as a core opinion based on the events of the time but then changed your mind about?
McManus: That is a good question. When I first started speaking globally on issues of race, racism, religion, and antisemitism, I believed that the roots of white supremacy, antisemitism, and other forms of oppression stemmed primarily from two things: ignorance and insecurity. I thought those were individual weaknesses that explained why people held such beliefs.
But over time, I learned about the systemic nature of oppression—its connection to economic structures and the processes that instill these belief systems in young people. There is a reason why white supremacists in the United States are working so hard to change what is taught in schools. It is not because we made massive progress in anti-bias or multicultural education but because we made some progress. That, combined with demographic changes in the U.S., has provoked fear in certain groups. And systems respond to defend themselves as they are designed to do.
My most significant learning was that these belief systems are not primarily caused by individual weakness but by coordinated systems designed to construct and reinforce social hierarchies and oppression. That realization came from mentors, advancing my education and learning under people who had been doing this work for decades. I also began to understand that opposition to oppression has existed since its very inception—and that part of the journey is reeducating ourselves.
Even though I had grown up in an actively antiracist and anti-oppression household, I still went to school—and I learned whatever I learned. Some of it I had to unlearn. Even more importantly, I had to learn entirely new canons concerning my education because I had not been exposed to them. There was nothing there. I knew nothing about abolitionists.
I knew nothing. I had heard a couple of names, but I did not understand what they meant. This was right after high school. None of it meant anything to me. And I was someone who was already actively trying to fight against racism.
So I had to reeducate myself and continue my education, and I still continue to do so today.
Jacobsen: What are your favourite quotes? What are the ones you bring up in your international talks?
McManus: Oh, Lord. Yes, I think, generally, I do not always have a single favourite quote, but the quotes that matter the most to me are not necessarily about who said them—they are about helping people see a different perspective.
If you can lean on a quote from someone the audience respects or someone they can acknowledge—whether historically or in current politics, education, or activism—and that helps shift their perspective even a little, then that quote becomes meaningful. Those are the kinds of quotes I value the most.
Jacobsen: All right, Dr. McManus. Thank you.
McManus: All right. Excellent.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/12
In 2025, skateboarding is more diverse and widely accepted, though tensions remain between mainstream growth and underground authenticity. Latosha Stone-Keagy, founder of Proper Gnar, reflects on two decades in the scene, highlighting increased inclusion for women, LGBTQ+, and non-traditional skaters. Her creative deck design blends aesthetics with practical use, while the business side presents challenges like supply chains, tariffs, and balancing art with entrepreneurship. She sees promise in DIY park trends, eco-friendly gear, and independent media. Stone-Keagy advocates for real inclusivity, community investment, and protecting skateboarding’s creative, rebellious spirit amid rising commercialization. “Keep it weird,” she urges—authenticity matters.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the current cultural climate of skateboarding in 2025?
Latosha Stone-Keagy: Skateboarding feels more diverse and popular than before. There still a lot of DIY, and a lot of the older generation still frown upon it outside… but it has a much wider acceptance in mainstream culture. Some skaters embrace the growth, but many still like it to be “underground” and feel its more authentic that way.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What have been significant changes in the skateboarding community attitudes toward women or non‑traditional skaters over the last two decades?
Stone-Keagy: There’s been a huge difference. Twenty years ago, it was still rare to see women, LGBTQ+, or other non-traditional skaters in ads, contests, or in skate videos or on pro teams. There were the few main ones but not many others. Now, it’s getting better and becoming more common. There’s many pro women, and even some all-women teams. There’s brands owned by non-traditional skaters that sponsor people that are different. I think social media helped give different types of people a platform. You still get some guys that are weird about it or leave the occasional mean-spirited comment but it’s not as common as it used to be.
Jacobsen: What is your deck‑design process?
Stone-Keagy: I usually start with a blank template so I know where everything can be placed. I have to think about how the board will be used.. this part will eventually be grinded off, or the trucks and wheels will cover this part so don’t put anything important there… I think of how it will look when someone’s holding it or viewing it from the bottom when someone’s about to drop in. Color palettes and visual impact from a distance are huge to me. I love designing skateboards because there really aren’t any rules besides the ones you put on yourself.
When it comes to the actual design it varies. Sometimes I just start sketching and something good comes out of it. When I’m trying to build a collection, I think of a mood, vibe, or message I want to portray. Sometimes I start out on paper, other times I go straight to digital. Sometimes I’ve painted something unrelated and then decided later I think it would look on a board. I also think about how each piece will stand alone but also still feel like part of a cohesive drop.
Jacobsen: What have been obstacles navigating the business side of a skate brand?
Stone-Keagy: The biggest challenge has probably been balancing creativity with consistency. All artists go through art block from time to time. Trends move fast and you can’t lose your brands soul trying to chase them. Manufacturing has been a wild ride too. First, it was hard to find good suppliers because everyone in the industry is so secretive about theirs. Then meeting minimums as a smaller brand. And when COVID hit, everything got backed up for like 3 months. Now, the rising costs related to tariffs. Most skateboards are made with Canadian Maple, because in Canada the trees grow slower and are older due to their climate. American wood is too brittle for skateboards, so we have to import it. Then there’s cash flow, social media fatigue, and wearing many hats as an entrepreneur.. not getting to spend as much time skating and making art because you actually have to run the business to keep it going.
Jacobsen: The Olympics introduced skateboarding to a global audience. Has visibility helped or independent brands?
Stone-Keagy: It’s a double-edged sword. Visibility opened the door for new fans and markets that wouldn’t have existed before, which is great! But it also brought in big corporations trying to capitalize without truly understanding the culture. For independent brands, it’s helped if you stay true to your identity, because true skaters are looking for something real instead of mass-market skating.
Jacobsen: Which emerging trends in hardware, media, or park design excite you?
Stone-Keagy: I’m excited by how modular park design is becoming — more DIY-friendly, more flexible, and focused on creativity over huge, intimidating structures. I think that’s great for bringing on new skaters. There’s also projects and grants like The Skatepark Project that helps people get skateparks in their area. In hardware, it’s nice to see innovation in eco-friendly materials and more customizable options for riders. When I was growing up you got to choose what was in the small local skateshop and that was it unless your parents cared enough to let you order from CCS. In media, I love how zines and self-made edits are thriving. Some people are even getting super creative with their edits, making kind of like art films.
Jacobsen: Community is central to skateboarding culture. How do you cultivate authentic connections with skaters?
Stone-Keagy: I focus on showing up — hosting small events, doing lessons, supporting and donating to local contests, collaborating with artists and skaters on designs, and sharing real skate clips instead of perfectly polished ads. Listening is huge. Skaters are very vocal with their opinions and will call you out on something they see as fake. A lot of the time, it’s about giving back without asking for anything in return. That’s how loyalty and respect grows.
Jacobsen: What developments would you like to see in skateboarding?
Stone-Keagy: I’d love to see skateboarding continue pushing toward real inclusivity — not performative support, but actual investment in skaters from underrepresented backgrounds. That means more sponsorships for women, nonbinary skaters, LGBTQ+ skaters, and skaters of color, not just marketing campaigns during Pride Month or Black History Month. I also want to see more skateparks in areas that don’t traditionally get investment. A lot of skateboarding’s next generation could come from neighborhoods that currently don’t have the space or resources to nurture it. On the product side, I’d like more innovation in sustainable materials. Things like recycled decks, eco-friendly wheels, and low-waste production methods are still in the early stages, but they could have a massive impact if brands really commit to them.
And finally, I want skateboarding to stay weird. We need to protect the DIY spirit that made skating so powerful in the first place. Keep making space for creativity, expression, rebellion, and all the imperfections that make skating real. I hope new brands and skaters keep taking risks and making stuff that’s raw and honest, even if it’s not the most “profitable” thing.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Latosha.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/12
Chip Lupo, an analyst from WalletHub, talks about their 2025 report ranking U.S. states by drug problems based on 20 public health, addiction, and enforcement metrics. The study highlights troubling trends, such as New Mexico’s top ranking for drug use, teen substance exposure, and overdose deaths, while Hawaii and Florida rank lowest. Lupo emphasizes the multifaceted nature of the crisis—driven by fentanyl, youth access, and limited treatment infrastructure—and the importance of balanced strategies across healthcare, law enforcement, and prevention. The report underscores the urgent need for coordinated responses to address America’s deepening drug epidemic.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are joined by Chip Lupo, an analyst from WalletHub, to discuss the findings from their new report on drug use by the state. With National Substance Abuse Prevention Week approaching, the timing could not be more critical. The United States saw more than 80,670 drug overdose deaths in the 12 months ending November 2024, and the DEA seized the equivalent of more than 367 million lethal doses of fentanyl that year.
WalletHub’s newly released report ranks the 50 states and the District of Columbia based on 20 key metrics related to drug use, addiction, law enforcement, and health support infrastructure. These range from overdose and arrest rates to opioid prescriptions and the availability of treatment. The goal is to spotlight the most pressing problem areas.
Let us go through the results. Which states are performing well? Which are struggling? And most importantly—why?
Chip Lupo: This is one ranking where number one is not good. The higher a state ranks, the worse its drug problem. According to the report, the five states with the most significant drug problems in 2025 are:
- New Mexico
- West Virginia
- Nevada
- Alaska
- District of Columbia (Washington, D.C.)
If we examine the top four states (excluding D.C., which is a densely populated urban center with unique governance and demographics), a typical pattern emerges: lower income levels, rural geography, and limited economic opportunities. These factors often correlate with higher levels of substance misuse. In places like New Mexico, which ranks 1st overall, drug use has reached epidemic proportions. It also ranks 1st in Drug Use & Addiction and has the highest percentage of teenagers using illicit drugs, the highest share of teens who tried marijuana before age 13, and the third-highest share of adults using illegal drugs.
Jacobsen: What kinds of factors are measured to determine these rankings?
Lupo: The report includes several key indicators. These capture both illegal drug use and prescription drug misuse, particularly opioids. It also considers:
- Overdose deaths per capita
- Growth in overdose deaths
- Drug arrests per capita
- Drug arrests on college campuses
- Presence of clandestine drug labs and dumpsites (such as meth labs)
- Access to treatment, including programs for pregnant women
- Availability of counselling and recovery services
- Teen drug use and exposure
Youth drug use is a significant factor. For example, New Mexico has the highest teen usage, and Nevada ranks near the top for teens being offered drugs on school property.
Jacobsen: How about the states at the other end of the spectrum—those doing better?
Lupo: The states with the least severe drug problems, according to our 2025 rankings, are:
- Florida
- Connecticut
- Nebraska
- Utah
- Hawaii
Hawaii ranks 51st, meaning it has the lowest drug problem overall across our metrics. Florida, at 47th, is exciting—it may surprise some, but that is what the data shows.
Jacobsen: This sounds like a complex and multifactorial issue, and no single policy will fix everything.
Lupo: Absolutely. Addressing drug abuse requires coordinated strategies across law enforcement, healthcare access, and community education. States that succeed tend to invest in all three.
Florida ranks in the bottom 10 across all three of our dimensions: Drug Use and addiction, Law Enforcement, and Drug Health Issues and rehab. To me, that suggests that if there is a drug problem in the state, at least some infrastructure or policy measures are in place—whether through law enforcement or access to treatment—to combat it. That is not always the case in some of the higher-ranked states on our list.
When people think of Florida, they often picture Miami, South Florida, or the I-95 corridor, where drugs are known to move up and down through distribution networks. So, I found Florida’s low ranking surprising. But at the same time, it is encouraging—it shows that measures are being implemented to prevent escalation or provide treatment options, which some of the worst-ranked states do not do well at all.
In those higher-ranked states, we often see abysmal performance in law enforcement and treatment access. That could be due to a lack of facilities, insufficient funding, or limited affordability. Sometimes, individuals may choose not to seek help, even when services are available.
Jacobsen: Is there a significant difference in drug use between red and blue states? Or maybe between younger and older users?
Lupo: The difference between red and blue states is relatively small. Red states average around 27%, while blue states average about 24.5%, so the gap is not that large. It is more useful to look at individual state-level conditions rather than broad political labels.
And yes, some red states have legalized marijuana, which complicates the picture. That must be considered when analyzing these rankings. Legalization could potentially open the door to increased access, higher potency products, or greater exposure, possibly leading to higher rates of use or associated crime.
Also, the marijuana being sold today—especially where it’s legalized—is far more potent than in past generations. This is not your uncle’s low-grade marijuana. Today’s products are significantly stronger, and that increases risks, particularly among inexperienced or younger users.
Jacobsen: Are there contextual or regional factors that explain why teenagers are being offered illegal drugs at school more often in some states than others—say, California compared to Connecticut, South Dakota, or Massachusetts?
Lupo: That is a great question. One possible explanation is the effectiveness—or lack thereof—of school drug education curricula. If those programs are underdeveloped, outdated, or inconsistently implemented, students may not get the message.
One particularly striking metric is the share of children living with someone who has a problem with alcohol or drugs. This does not mean the child is misusing substances, but they are being exposed to substance abuse in their home environment. And that kind of exposure can have long-term consequences. It starts at home—and a household with drug problems is not a stable or protective environment for children.
Jacobsen: I hear ongoing debates about harm reduction versus prohibition and the philosophical spectrum between them. How does that affect your methodology?
Lupo: That is a thoughtful point. In our scoring system, we assign equal weight (25 points each) to Law Enforcement and Drug Health Issues & Rehab to reflect both philosophical approaches. But the most significant weight—50 points—goes to Drug Use & Addiction because that is the most direct expression of the problem.
Within that category, the single most heavily weighted metric is overdose deaths per capita, which we weight quadruple. And that is deliberate. The opioid crisis, especially with fentanyl, has devastated communities across the country. So yes, this epidemic influences the decision to prioritize that metric.
I think so, Scott because when we’re talking about fentanyl, we are almost dealing with a separate issue. I do not believe most teenagers—or even many adult users—are actively trying to score fentanyl, so to speak. It is often something that is unknowingly laced into other drugs—whether illegal street drugs or counterfeit prescription medications. That is what makes it so dangerous.
The overdose deaths per capita metric, which we gave quadruple weight, captures the sheer devastation that fentanyl has contributed to in recent years. It reflects the tremendous volume of fentanyl that has entered the U.S. drug supply.
The following two most heavily weighted metrics in the Drug Use & Addiction category are:
- The share of teenagers who used illicit drugs in the past month (double weight)
- The number of opioid pain reliever prescriptions per 100 people (also double weight)
These essentially represent two separate demographics. Teenagers are more commonly using illicit recreational drugs, while opioid prescriptions typically affect adults unless a teenager undergoes surgery or a serious injury. So, they speak to different facets of the epidemic.
Jacobsen: That distinction makes sense. It reflects the need to address both youth exposure and adult prescription practices.
Lupo: While these are different aspects of the broader issue, they are both widespread and, therefore, deserve equal weight in our ranking model. The point is to capture the multifaceted nature of drug use and addiction.
Also, to clarify, the data sources we used are all mainstream and reputable. They include the U.S. Census Bureau, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention, Federal Bureau of Investigation, Substance Abuse and Mental Health Services Administration, U.S. Drug Enforcement Administration, and Centers for Medicare & Medicaid Services.
Jacobsen: Were there any sources you considered including but left out for one reason or another?
Lupo: Not particularly. The list we used is comprehensive and in line with expectations for a report like this. We had coverage from federal health agencies, law enforcement databases, and public health organizations. The core data set is solid.
Jacobsen: Is there anything else that stood out in the Drug Health Issues & Rehab dimension?
Lupo: Yes, a couple of things. One crucial factor is that some states—New Mexico included—have no employee drug testing laws. That means companies can implement testing independently, but the state does not require or regulate it in any standardized way. No law in New Mexico defines substance abuse during pregnancy as a crime.
Another key point is that New Mexico ranks poorly in the share of adults who needed but did not receive treatment for illicit drug use. That could be due to limited treatment centers per capita, affordability issues, or even personal reluctance to seek help.
New Mexico is about middle-of-the-road in terms of substance abuse treatment facilities per 100,000 people, so the treatment infrastructure is not nonexistent. That suggests affordability, access, or public awareness might be the limiting factors.
Jacobsen: All right, that was a great chat.
Lupo: Sounds good, Scott.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Thanks so much. Take care.
Lupo: You got it. Talk soon.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/11
Gabrielle Provencher, M.Sc., R.S.W., R.M.F.T. (AMHP), Director of Enhanced Mental Health Care and Workplace Support at Homewood Health, shares insights on the rising demand for mental health services post-COVID-19. She highlights a 37% increase in cases related to anxiety, depression, and stress from 2019 to mid-2024, driven by isolation, financial pressure, and sociopolitical strain. Provencher explains how EFAP programs support employees with strengths-based, short-term counselling, crisis intervention, and wellness services. She emphasizes gender disparities in mental health access and the need for inclusive care. Provencher also explores the impact on families and couples, noting how caregiving roles, emotional labour, and relationship stress contribute to mental health strain. Her leadership combines clinical experience with compassionate, trauma-informed responses rooted in equity, community care, and cultural sensitivity.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are joined by Gabrielle Provencher, M.Sc., R.S.W., R.M.F.T. (AMHP). She is the Director of Enhanced Mental Health Care and Workplace Support at Homewood Health, bringing over 15 years of experience since 2009. Gabrielle has held leadership roles across crisis management and long-term psychotherapy services. She is a Registered Social Worker, Psychotherapist, and Registered Marriage and Family Therapist.
Gabrielle holds a Master’s degree in Clinical Criminology, a Bachelor’s degree in Social Work, and a Certificate in Family and Couples Therapy. She specializes in working with couples, families, and equity-deserving groups and actively promotes diversity, equity, and inclusion in healthcare. Gabrielle also operates a private practice and has served on the Board of Durham Children’s Aid Society. Thank you for your time. First question: What is the primary goal of the EFAP program?
Gabrielle Provencher: That’s a broader question because EFAP encompasses many services. At Homewood Health, we are a Canadian leader in mental health and addiction services. EFAP primarily focuses on workplace mental health support. Depending on the coverage, it can involve short-term counselling or longer, mid-term psychotherapy.
We also offer crisis management services on-site in response to traumatic incidents, such as an employee’s passing or organizational restructuring, but also for larger-scale events such as natural disasters, accidents, or acts of violence/terrorism. We also provide various wellness services, including workshops, meditation, and workplace assessments.
So, the goal can vary depending on the specific service. However, if we refer to EFAP short-term counselling—”one-at-a-time” sessions—the main objective is to offer strengths-based, solution-focused therapy. It is very client-driven and focused on immediate concerns. This is not a psychoanalytic approach where we delve into childhood issues. Instead, it supports employees in maintaining a healthy work-life balance.
Jacobsen: What biggest challenges or pressure points that contribute to a lack of work-life balance today?
Provencher: Financial strain is one of the most prominent challenges families face. It manifests in various ways: people taking on multiple jobs, working longer hours, and having less time for family or self-care. We’ll probably discuss this in more depth later, but for women, emotional labour—the caregiving burden—also plays a significant role.
I should not say burden because it is not always a burden. However, in many cases, women are most likely to be caring for both an elderly family member and a child at the same time. We call this the “sandwich caregiver” role. For other families, the financial stress of working harder and longer hours often results in less time with family and children, which impacts many people.
So, these are some of the key issues right now regarding work-life balance. In another area, there is a different dynamic for those employed and have the privilege of working from home post-COVID. Many people feel isolated. Even though we are “together,” we are constantly on camera. It is counterintuitive, but being continually connected makes it difficult to disconnect. Some people find it harder to take care of themselves—go for a walk, take a proper lunch break. Instead, they say, “No, I will just finish this email.” The next thing they know, they have spent eight or nine hours sitting at their desk.
So I think those are the main contributing factors, along with the overall rise in mental health issues like stress, anxiety, and depression, much of it driven by today’s sociopolitical climate.
Jacobsen: You mentioned stress and anxiety. While anxiety and depression are different, they are often linked. What mental health issues have increased since 2019?
Provencher: Mainly anxiety, depression, stress, and work-related stress. Based on our data, there has been a 37% increase in cases addressing these issues since 2019. As I mentioned, this increase has been driven by isolation, financial pressure, increased screen time, and social media time, which intensified during the pandemic.
This especially affected young people in school, but suddenly pulled them out of social environments and placed them in one-dimensional online learning settings. That disruption created a significant developmental gap for many, and we still see the repercussions.
So yes, there is a youth mental health crisis—but adults are affected too. We also see the rise of climate-related mental health issues. There is a term we use: eco-anxiety—and it is real. People are questioning whether they want to have children, whether they can ever afford a home, and what the future holds.
This is compounded by the strain on the healthcare system, where people struggle to access physicians or mental health professionals. All of this contributes to the increasing rates of mental health issues.
Jacobsen: How much of that would you attribute to COVID?
Provencher: That’s a very relevant and complex question. Causality is always difficult to attribute when dealing with large-scale, multifactorial issues like mental health. That said, yes, COVID had a major impact. It is significant to consider that famine, war, and plague have existed throughout history. However, in our time, experiencing something of this magnitude on a global scale, all at once, was unprecedented. We were not prepared.
We were not just unprepared—unless you worked in epidemiology —most people didn’t believe it could happen. I think it was a shock for everyone. It became a kind of collective trauma. It is difficult to explain what we all endured for nearly three years—being at home and making critical decisions such as, “Should I get the vaccine? What does that mean for me? Are there enough studies? Will I be safe?”
There was the constant fear of infection every time you stepped outside. Moreover, we didn’t have much data. We are talking about the importance of having facts, but as the pandemic evolved, we had to make tough decisions with almost no reliable information. That is a traumatic experience in itself.
People were losing their jobs, and then there was everything else layered on top, like the civil unrest following George Floyd’s death. 2020 was an unforgettable year. The years that followed brought many long-standing and deep-rooted issues to the forefront. People became even more polarized in their views, creating ongoing conflict. There is much anger out there.
It is a lot to process. So is it normal to see rising mental health issues? Yes, absolutely. What we are witnessing is a normal reaction to highly abnormal events. That is how I see it.
Jacobsen: How many people exceeded the clinical threshold for anxiety from 2022 to 2024?
Provencher: Between January 2022 and July 2024, 63% of the individuals who called us and underwent screening exceeded the clinical threshold for anxiety. We use psychometric assessments based on the criteria for Generalized Anxiety Disorder (GAD), and 63% screened above the level we would consider functionally manageable. That is a very high number.
Jacobsen: What are some of the common symptoms of anxiety in daily life?
Provencher: Anxiety can present in many different ways. It may show up as excessive worry, panic disorder, or social anxiety. For some individuals, it can show up as phobias such as social phobia (fear of being judged) or agoraphobia (fear of being in situations where escape might be difficult or help might not be available), etc. Physically, it can include symptoms like sweaty palms, a racing heart, sleep disturbances, gastrointestinal issues, and panic attacks.
In terms of cognitive symptoms, anxiety often involves intrusive thoughts. With generalized anxiety disorder, for instance, nearly everything in life becomes something to worry about or overthink. You might constantly ask yourself, “What will people think of me if I go to that event?” or catastrophize everyday situations. It becomes a mental loop that is hard to break.
Or, “What should I wear?”—that question is typical for many of us. I think it is natural to experience some level of anxiety. Anxiety in itself is not always negative. It can help us prepare or stay alert. However, it becomes a concern when it starts interfering with your daily functioning and impacts your relationships, work, or ability to parent. That is when it turns into a clinical issue.
In some cases, people may turn to substance use to cope with persistent, intrusive thoughts. The content of those thoughts can vary depending on the individual’s specific disorder or the situation they are facing.
Jacobsen: COVID-19 began from late 2019 to early 2020 and continued through 2022. You mentioned a 37% increase in mental health issues. Was that increase steady, or did it plateau into the later part of 2024 or even into 2025?
Provencher: Interestingly enough, the rates of anxiety and depression have now almost returned to pre-pandemic levels. However, stress and work-stress continue to rise, alongside marital issues. I think we’re starting to recognize the deeper emotional impact of stress and understand that not everything is a diagnosable illness—stress is affecting our health in more complex and subtle ways. There’s growing awareness of the nuanced ways stress manifests, so people may now articulate their distress more in terms of stress and emotional strain rather than clinical disorders.
The effects of COVID are still reverberating. Financial stress remains, and younger generations, particularly students, have been disproportionately affected. I am thinking of my sister who completed her bachelor’s degree almost entirely in her basement! Those are formative years that she will never get back, when you are supposed to socialize, build friendships, and network. That kind of isolation contributes to increased social anxiety.
Jacobsen: Are there noticeable gender differences in how people seek out mental health supports, and in the self-stigmas that might prevent them from doing so?
Provencher: Yes, unfortunately, there are. We are mindful of this and try to ensure our services are inclusive and accessible to different groups. However, when it comes to societal expectations, especially for men, there is often pressure to appear stoic, strong, and self-reliant. For some, seeking help is seen as a sign of weakness, which makes it much harder to reach out, even when they recognize the signs in themselves. That stigma continues to be a barrier.
What you are describing also leads to internalized stigma. We know that men may often perceive a mental health crisis as a personal failure rather than recognizing it as a medical or psychological condition. It becomes tied to their sense of identity, as if struggling is a weakness of character.
Surveys show that men are far less likely to admit they are struggling emotionally, even to close family or friends. It often takes them much longer to seek support, and usually it happens only once they have hit a crisis point. That is when they are most likely to access services.
And I want to be clear—this does not apply to all men. There are certainly many men who take care of their mental health and access services early. But from a broader perspective, we need to improve how we reach and engage men with mental health campaigns. There’s more work to be done to effectively target this audience.
Men also tend to express emotional distress differently. Women may verbalize their struggles more readily, whereas men might externalize through anger, substance use, or withdrawal. Some men might prefer action-oriented coping strategies, like going to the gym or taking medication, before they consider talking to a therapist.
These social differences—how we are raised and conditioned—shape how people seek help. Moreover, society also plays a role. Vulnerability and emotional expression are often seen as more socially acceptable for women. On the other hand, women are disproportionately diagnosed with mental health issues, which opens a whole different conversation.
For instance, we need a better understanding of how physical health issues might lead to mental health symptoms in women and not rush to label something strictly psychological. We also need to understand emotional labour and caregiving responsibilities. Sometimes, what we call a mental health issue is an entirely normal response to being overwhelmed. Recognizing this can help us provide more appropriate, gender-sensitive support to both men and women.
Jacobsen: How do these issues manifest within families and couples?
Provencher: When talking about a unit—whether it’s a couple or a family—you have to take all of these individual issues and multiply the complexity. Now, you’re dealing with relational dynamics, communication breakdowns, emotional withdrawal, and competing needs.
Unfortunately, we are seeing more relationships under strain. It is becoming harder for couples to maintain a healthy relationship amid the stressors of modern life. Parents are stretched thin, often with little time to spend with their children, let alone with each other. There is also the challenge of protecting kids from the emotional toll of what is happening in the world.
We must remember that the idea of “family” is changing. Families look very different today. They’re more diverse, and their needs are more varied. However, one consistent theme is that people have less time to commit to their partner and children and to nurture those relationships.
These issues are complicated. If you are in a relationship with someone who is clinically depressed, it can be highly challenging. Not only are they likely to be off work, but in severe cases, they may not even be able to get out of bed. That leaves the other partner to take on everything—household responsibilities, emotional support, parenting—and that is a considerable burden.
When your partner is supposed to be your support system and suddenly cannot fulfill that role, it is emotionally taxing. It truly does take a village. While we say that often, we could do much better as a community by supporting one another.
Jacobsen: Has your leadership experience in crisis management and long-term psychotherapy helped your current work?
Provencher: Yes. I currently maintain a private practice, which is very important to me. I have been in leadership for a long time, but I intentionally returned to direct clinical work because it grounds me. As we build and oversee programs, I want to ensure the quality remains high and that we do the right thing for our clients and customers.
Staying connected to clinical work helps me remember what it is like to be in the room with someone and truly listen and support them. My training and experience with clients deeply inform my leadership.
When it comes to crisis management, that experience also helps me navigate what is happening in the world today. For example, after the recent tragic event at the Lapu-Lapu festival in Vancouver, we were able to respond and provide support to the affected community. It’s meaningful to be part of that—to help people through trauma and to be involved in making things better, even in the face of violence. It all comes down to kindness. We need more of it, and I keep that at the core of what I do.
Jacobsen: Gabrielle, thank you for your time today. I appreciate your expertise, and it was really nice to meet you.
Provencher: Thank you, same here.
Jacobsen: Okay, have a good day!
Provencher: Thank you again. Take care.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/08
Dr. Tom Milam, MD, MDiv, Chief Medical Officer at Iris Telehealth, joins Scott Douglas Jacobsen to discuss young people’s mental health challenges in a screen-saturated world. With a unique background in psychiatry and theology, Dr. Milam emphasizes the importance of emotional regulation over strict screen time limits. He explores how digital content, AI tools, and early caregiver bonding shape resilience, identity, and well-being. From cozy games to developmental lags post-COVID, the conversation highlights actionable insights for parents and educators navigating a rapidly evolving media landscape with empathy, structure, and awareness.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are joined by Dr. Tom Milam, MD, MDiv. He is a practicing psychiatrist and the Chief Medical Officer at Iris Telehealth. Dr. Milam has a unique background that includes graduate studies in theology at Yale University, where he was a Yale Associates Scholar. He earned his Doctor of Medicine from the University of Virginia and completed his residency training in psychiatry at both Duke University and the University of Virginia Medical Center.
Dr. Milam brings deep insight into the mental health challenges facing young people today, particularly around the impact of social media and digital content. He focuses on the growing gap between what technology platforms provide and what children and adolescents need for healthy psychological development.
He encourages parents and caregivers to prioritize emotional regulation over restricting screen time. He also advocates for thoughtful use of digital tools—such as “cozy games”—that can help build resilience, foster secure attachments, and address often-overlooked “silent stressors” in modern parenting.
Thank you for joining me today. Let me begin with a distinction you’re making that hasn’t come up much in prior interviews: the difference between screen time restriction and the development of emotional regulation. Most mainstream advice suggests limiting screen time while also working on emotional skills. But you emphasize emotional regulation more strongly. Why that emphasis, rather than taking a dual-track approach?
Dr. Tom Milam: Part of it is that we want to start early in helping children express their emotions—whether with people in real life, through digital interactions, or in structured settings like daycare, school, or home. You’d be surprised how many children don’t receive consistent or developmentally appropriate modelling of emotional regulation.
Emotional regulation is foundational to mental health. It involves expressing feelings through physical posture, voice tone, facial expressions, or behaviours like crying, anger, or withdrawal. Children and the adults who guide them vary widely in how they show emotion. When children struggle with emotional expression, caregivers need to be attentive and, if required, seek help from a mental health professional.
Screen time isn’t inherently harmful. I’ve seen it be beneficial in some cases. It can offer opportunities for connection and learning, especially when children don’t have regular access to peers or adults.
When I was growing up, we didn’t have this level of screen exposure. Our only screens were televisions—first black-and-white, then colour. Today, screens are pervasive, and children interact with them from very young ages. That’s not necessarily bad, but it requires intentional guidance.
What concerns me most is when screens become a child’s primary source for learning how to express emotions. Too often, screens are used in place of caregiver interaction. But children learn to interpret and regulate their emotional world through those real-life relationships—parents, guardians, and teachers. That is where the real work of development happens.
Jacobsen: When it comes to screen content itself, there’s historical precedent here. At one point, people were saying rock and roll was corrupting the morality of the youth—starting most prominently in the United States with Elvis. That dastardly man swinging his hips—look at him go! It was considered terrible. Then came rock and roll, grunge pop, goth, punk, etc. So, from a clinical perspective, is there any legitimate concern about the content kids consume—beyond just the amount of time they spend on screens?
Milam: The content needs to be age-appropriate. And realistically, there’s no going back to children using screens. They’re everywhere now, including in schools, where tablets and computers often replace paper. But again, the content must be developmentally appropriate.
Developmental stages matter a great deal. Children need bonding time with their caregivers from birth to around age five. That’s when they learn to feel love and affection. While some of that can be conveyed through a screen, ideally, the human bond—physical contact, being held, being nurtured—lays the foundation for secure emotional development. A child needs to know their needs will be met—when they’re hungry, they’re fed; when they’re upset, they’re comforted.
It’s hard to get a five-year-old not to resist being drawn to a screen, but early emotional development is rooted in real-world responsiveness. Crying, anger, frustration, happiness—all of that is connected to whether their core needs are consistently met.
From about ages six to twelve, you see a different developmental stage. That’s when reasoning and logic begin to mature, and school plays a significant role in shaping how kids think and engage with technology. Using screens in an educational setting at this stage makes sense. We need to integrate technology into education thoughtfully. Artificial intelligence is going to be a game-changer here.
As children age, their supervision needs shift. Young children, especially those under five, don’t know what they’re doing and need close monitoring. However, the goal is to gradually reduce direct oversight and help them internalize judgment.
Ideally, by the time children are in their early or mid-teens, they’ve developed a sense of what kind of content is appropriate, what is uplifting, and what is harmful or misleading. Of course, this takes time, and not every child progresses at the same rate.
In many households, when a young child or tween encounters something inappropriate online—or misbehaves—parents will often respond by simply taking away the screen. That’s understandable. But you won’t always be there to take it away. So, the real goal is to instill the ability to self-regulate. Children need to learn that just because something is on a screen doesn’t mean it’s meant for them or that it’s healthy.
There’s much content out there that can be emotionally damaging, especially for children and teens. Early supervision is key, but we must also teach kids to make good decisions independently. And even as adults, we don’t always model perfect digital behaviour ourselves.
Jacobsen: With AI being a potential game changer, how do you see it influencing parental screening of content and device usage? And in terms of entertainment—I’m not talking about journalism here, but broader media—what types of content do you think can positively teach kids nonverbal lessons about social life or emotional regulation?
Milam: Well, what you often see in movies and television shows—especially those on mainstream channels—is a lot of human interaction and emotional expression. That’s where children can begin to observe and model behaviour. As children grow older, particularly after age five, they interact more with adults beyond their immediate family. Their exposure to different models of behaviour broadens.
They might encounter a teacher, a coach, a mentor, or a babysitter—someone they look up to, maybe even more than their parents, in specific ways. They may start to emulate those figures. But if a child hasn’t received enough love, nurturing, and a clear sense of self during their early years, it can be hard for them to seek validation outside the home in a healthy way.
We all struggle with this to some extent. The psychoanalyst Donald Winnicott discussed the concept of the “good enough mother”—or, more broadly, the “good enough parent.” You don’t have to be perfect; you just need to provide enough care, attention, and love for the child to develop a secure sense of identity and belonging.
If a child feels safe, loved, and valued by age five, much of their foundational emotional security is in place. If that’s missing, they may seek it externally well into adulthood. And frankly, many social media and some media programming prey on that insecurity. They feed on fear and anxiety. They’re trying to sell something.
As adults, we’re generally more capable of recognizing this and deciding to turn off a particular channel or exit a site. But children—especially younger ones and even teenagers—often lack the discernment to distinguish between what is real and healthy and what is manipulative or harmful.
So yes, it’s a long answer to your question—but it’s a complex issue. If designed with explicit norms and safeguards, AI can help parents by filtering content, flagging problematic material, and recommending age-appropriate options. That’s a real advantage.
When my kids were young, I didn’t know how to set parental phone or computer controls. There were a few channels back then—you just turned the dial. Today, it’s far more complex. AI could function like an advanced version of movie ratings—G, PG, M, R—but far more adaptive. Parents could speak directly to the AI to configure settings that match a child’s developmental stage.
Of course, it will never be perfect. No one believes AI will fully solve this. But it can help limit access to harmful content and give parents better tools for understanding what’s developmentally appropriate—beyond just the traditional rating systems we grew up with.
Jacobsen: I was speaking with two child psychologists recently who work in schools, and they both mentioned something striking: across the board, they’re seeing kids entering grade five showing the emotional maturity of grade three. Grade sevens present more like grade fives, and so on. There is about a two-year lag in emotional maturity. Is that something you’re hearing discussed more often among professionals?
Milam: Sure. My wife is a middle school reading specialist, so I hear many stories from her. There will always be variability in which children can grasp emotional and social concepts more quickly and which need more time and support.
That’s where the concept of resilience comes in. There’s extensive research into what it means to raise a resilient child. Some children are naturally more resilient and better equipped to navigate challenges, especially during key developmental stages like early elementary school.
Resilience includes learning how to manage emotions and express sadness or anger appropriately without aggression. It involves knowing how to use your words, wait your turn, stand in line, and read social cues. Children need to learn These foundational social skills in real-world settings.
Learning depends on children and families being together and on meaningful interaction between children and adults. Face-to-face social interaction is vital during early childhood development.
I don’t want to lay all the blame on social media. It is a form of social connection, but it’s not as interactive—or at least not in the same way—as in-person relationships. It can be interactive, especially for older children and teens. However, for younger children, digital socialization often lacks the nuance and warmth of real-life human interaction.
What we’re seeing now is, in part, the aftermath of the COVID-19 pandemic. During lockdown, many children were isolated—not just from peers but also from extended family and broader community networks. Some families didn’t have reliable Wi-Fi or data plans, so their kids couldn’t connect virtually. That isolation left a mark.
Jacobsen: And even though the lockdown period was relatively brief, research suggests that it had lasting effects on emotional development for some children. I don’t want to attribute everything to COVID-19, but it has played a significant role. From an evolutionary perspective, facial recognition and emotional reading are survival tools. And, as you mentioned earlier, primary caregivers up to about age five are the ones who first teach us how to read and express emotions.
Milam: If a child is exposed to a wide variety of emotional expressions on screens, but no one can explain which reactions are appropriate—or how to handle their feelings—then the learning process is incomplete. They’ve seen the emotions, but they haven’t been taught how to respond or express them healthily.
Simple things matter: when you’re angry, it’s not OK to hit or hurt people. When you’re sad, it’s OK to cry—regardless of whether you’re a boy or a girl. Crying is a valid form of expression. It’s not a weakness.
That message becomes especially important when working with children who’ve experienced trauma or grief. Helping them process those emotions is key to ensuring they don’t grow up believing that all adults are untrustworthy or harmful.
Social media increases exposure, but it also increases risk. Parents, caregivers, teachers, and coaches play a critical role in guiding children—especially early on—in setting healthy emotional boundaries and expectations.
Jacobsen: That makes sense. Are there certain things digital technology has not touched—lessons or practices that still hold and must be taught directly to children in their early years?
Milam: Digital technology is often focused on gathering data to better understand children, and I believe a great deal more could be done to support children’s emotional health and well-being through these tools. Especially when it comes to identifying early signs of significant challenges—depression, withdrawal, isolation, anxiety, panic, or excessive fear.
If those signs are not recognized, they can be misinterpreted. For instance, a child might seem “quiet,” and adults may assume it’s simply a personality trait. But in some cases, that quietness could be masking fear or anxiety—especially social anxiety or social phobia, which is one of the most common forms of anxiety in children.
If we don’t recognize that as a form of anxiety, we miss a significant opportunity for early support. Digital tools can be part of the solution, such as using interactive scales, simple stories, or emotional recognition exercises like identifying facial expressions: “Which one is this? Is this child angry or sad?” or watching a video and asking, “What did you notice about how that child or parent expressed themselves?”
These exercises help children put words to their emotions, and over time, that can make them feel safer and more comfortable expressing complicated feelings—especially fear or distress.
Jacobsen: It is both fantastic and deeply saddening how widespread abuse and violence toward children still are—not just here but globally. Many children grow up anxious and fearful, shaped by trauma and neglect.
The earlier we can identify those children and help them process their experiences—teach them how to trust again and love and be loved—the better their chances of forming meaningful relationships and living fulfilling lives.
You hear a phrase in North America: “What’s wrong with kids today?” Taking a slightly different angle—are the kids generally OK?
Milam: Yes—and I think it’s important to acknowledge that. Children are incredibly adaptive. However, how they are raised, the cultural context, the family structure, and social influences all shape how they grow.
Cultural differences in parenting and family life are sometimes undervalued in Western contexts. In many cultures, there’s a tighter-knit family orientation than the more individualistic “nuclear family” model we often refer to here.
Many layers shape a child’s sense of identity—first within the family of origin, then through community networks like schools, places of worship, or civic organizations. Whether it’s a mosque, church, synagogue, or local community center, those social structures help shape identity and belonging.
When used responsibly and at developmentally appropriate levels, social media can help children explore identity—especially in urban environments or remote rural areas, where access to peer groups may be more limited. It can provide exposure to different perspectives, interests, and communities.
I often compare social media to walking into a giant shopping mall. Everything in that mall is there to sell you something—each store, every vendor—it’s all about commerce. But there’s also a lot of social interaction happening in the halls, in the food courts, and between friends. That part can be positive and connected.
As adults, we understand that the stores are trying to sell us things. We’re aware of the motives. However, that distinction can be more rigid on social media, especially for children. Many platforms are designed to influence, persuade, or promote a particular viewpoint.
It takes a fair amount of sophistication and critical thinking to recognize when you’re being sold to—or worse, manipulated. Even adults sometimes struggle to discern what is true from what is deceptive. That’s why teaching media literacy and emotional awareness early is so essential.
One of the biggest things I worry about—not just for children but also for adults—is a naivete in how we approach social media. We need to be more discerning about what we expose ourselves to on screens and which relationships we allow into our lives through those platforms.
Some of those relationships are toxic. You see both children and adults being cruel to one another on social media. So the question becomes: how do you turn that off? How do you teach someone to ignore it?
Children now have to learn those skills—skills we didn’t have to teach a generation ago. And when there’s more to learn, it naturally takes longer. That’s part of why we’re seeing developmental lags in children today. It doesn’t mean they won’t catch up, but it doesn’t surprise those of us in the mental health and education fields to see measurable declines in some maturity regions.
We’re seeing it in reading, too. Many schools no longer teach cursive writing, critical writing is fading, and everything’s digital. That’s a massive shift. And yes, cursive writing may have been frustrating to learn, but it was a discipline—an essential cognitive and developmental exercise that is disappearing.
So much of children’s lives are now mediated through screens. I hope that AI can be used to create engaging and effective educational tools that help kids succeed at their individual levels. Right now, many children in our school systems feellike failures. They don’t believe they’re as good as others.
So, how do we help them succeed on their terms? How do we use technology to foster emotional intelligence, to help children understand and celebrate their own emotions and the emotions of others, and to help them learn to respect differences?
That’s why we still struggle with this—even as adults. Our culture has many examples of adults not behaving like adults when respecting diverse opinions or beliefs. This doesn’t happen in a vacuum; it starts in childhood.
If we do not address these issues early, we raise children who grow into adults who can be judgmental, reactive, or unnecessarily cruel. That’s a societal failure we can work to correct by focusing on emotional education from the very beginning.
Jacobsen: Sir, thank you so much for your time today and for sharing your expertise.
Milam: It was nice to meet you.
Jacobsen: Likewise. It’s been an absolute pleasure.
Milam: Excellent. We’ll be in touch.
Jacobsen: Take care.
Milam: Alright. Take care. Bye-bye.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/07
Cait Alexander, a Canadian-American survivor advocate and founder of End Violence Everywhere (EVE), channels her experience surviving near-fatal intimate partner violence into national advocacy. After her case was dismissed due to court delays, she launched EVE to support survivors and push for legal reforms in Canada and the U.S. Alexander discussed systemic failures, particularly Canada’s broken justice system and the dangers of abuser-enabling policies like Bill C-75 and R v. Jordan. She emphasized early intervention, community support, trauma-informed care, and the urgent need for legislative change. As lead plaintiff in a historic $15 million Charter lawsuit against the federal government, Alexander seeks justice for survivors and systemic accountability. Her advocacy highlights the need to believe, protect, and empower survivors at every level of society.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Cait Alexander is a Canadian-American survivor advocate and founder of End Violence Everywhere (EVE), a nonprofit organization dedicated to supporting survivors of intimate partner violence and advocating for systemic legal reform. After surviving a near-fatal assault in 2021, only to see her case dismissed due to court delays, Cait transformed her trauma into action through EVE. She supports survivor-to-survivor, champions legislative change, and fosters community allyship across North America. With a background in the arts, Cait leverages storytelling and media to amplify survivors’ voices and push for justice. She splits her time between Canada and Los Angeles, advocating for a world where survivors come first. Let us start on brand, but off-topic: what is happening with Diddy?
Cait Alexander: The trial is scheduled to begin on May 5. However, it is more important that we focus on the survivors and recognize how brave they have been in finally coming forward. As you said, it is like discovering a hidden city within a city. This situation has been happening for decades, with few people willing or able to come forward.
There were whispers before, but now survivors are speaking publicly. It is an important societal moment to see that we are finally addressing these issues more directly. Sadly, it has taken so many people getting hurt for this to happen.
When we look at the high-profile cases that have moved forward—Bill Cosby and Harvey Weinstein—we must ask: How many big-name stories are still untold?
Jacobsen: Many. Many.
Alexander: I also believe that industries like entertainment — and I say this as someone who is part of the entertainment industry — are relatively small communities. At a certain level, everybody knows everybody. How many people stayed silent after witnessing abuse? Why are people so uncomfortable coming forward?
The Me Too movement helped break that silence, but countless stories have not been told. Speculatively, it is possible.
Jacobsen: I pulled this information for documentation, prominent cases:
- Harvey Weinstein: Convicted in New York in 2020 of rape and sexual assault, sentenced to 23 years. In 2024, the New York conviction was overturned due to issues with the trial procedure. Still, he remains incarcerated based on a separate Los Angeles conviction from 2022, where he was sentenced to 16 years.
- R. Kelly: Sentenced in 2022 to 30 years in federal court for racketeering and sex trafficking in New York. In a separate federal case in Chicago, he received an additional 20-year sentence in 2023 (to be served mostly concurrently) for child sexual abuse material production and enticement of minors.
- Danny Masterson: Convicted in May 2023 on two counts of forcible rape and sentenced in September 2023 to 30 years to life in prison.
- Bill Cosby: Convicted in 2018 of aggravated indecent assault and sentenced to three to ten years. His conviction was overturned in 2021 by the Pennsylvania Supreme Court due to a prior non-prosecution agreement, leading to his release.
- Kevin Spacey: Faced multiple allegations but was acquitted in a 2023 UK trial regarding charges of sexual assault.
- Cuba Gooding Jr.: Pleaded guilty in 2022 to a misdemeanour forcible touching charge (related to non-consensual kissing) as part of a plea deal; he avoided jail time contingent on completing counselling.
Sean “Diddy” Combs was recently arrested, as you stated. So that is about half a dozen major cases. That is not a hugenumber, which suggests there are probably many more that are not reported. Do you think that is the case, or is there a phenomenon where individuals settle out of court?
Alexander: Yes. We have seen this repeatedly with many media moguls—Michael Bloomberg being one, Roger Ailes another. In the past, and likely continuing, settlements often involved non-disclosure agreements (NDAs).
People need to understand that criminal proceedings and charges take precedence over civil NDAs. You are not bound by an NDA if a crime has been committed.
We have to pull it back and understand the type of personality that commits these offences. There are almost identical patterns, identical psychology, and identical behaviours. You can almost pinpoint exactly the qualities of an abuser — it is specific. Power, control, and fear are the driving factors in abusing someone and keeping them trapped in that place.
The threats — of litigation, of not being believed — are tools abusers use to maintain power. They thrive in environments where fear and control dominate. When they lose control, they tend to react in extreme ways.
That is why it is so dangerous to leave abusive situations. It is also why it is so frightening to come forward — because the abuser will not stop; they need the upper hand. It is important that when people come forward with these stories, we create a community around survivors.
We must create a safety net and protective environment around coming forward because it is difficult. But there is power in numbers, and abusers can be held accountable and stopped when survivors come together.
That is what we are seeing in the Diddy case. Around 300 people have reportedly come forward about his actions. I look at that and think — this has been happening for a long time, and no one said anything until recently.
Cassie was brave in coming forward, and that one brave action led to hundreds of other brave actions.
It is sad—it is sad as a survivor and as someone who sees this every single day—that it had to go this far, that we did not believe survivors the first time they spoke up, that we did not believe the first time someone said, “Hey, this is wrong.”
That has to change. Of course, we should uphold “innocent until proven guilty.” That principle is important — it protects everyone.
However, we must also recognize that we no longer live in the 1900s, when there was no digital footprint. Today, there is usually a digital record of people’s actions, and it is much harder to hide.
That does not mean we bypass due process or the court system. It means when someone shows us evidence — video, photos, texts, emails — we should be more willing to believe them and support survivors accordingly.
Jacobsen: You mentioned the common patterns and psychology of individuals committing these crimes. Are there common targets, too? What are common traits or identifiers that these offenders look for?
Alexander: Yes. They look for the opposite of themselves. My experience with survivors is that they are incredible, kind, giving, empathetic, warmhearted, and generous. They generally are not abusive themselves and do not have those tendencies. They tend to be the people who give others the benefit of the doubt and who believe in kindness and second chances.
In contrast, perpetrators often fall into what is called the “dark triad” — Machiavellianism, psychopathy, and narcissism. They prey on those who embody what they lack. The throughline between all survivors I have encountered is their kindness. Yet society often places blame on survivors — asking, “Why did you not get out sooner? Why did you not see it?”
But when you are reasonable and compassionate, you naturally want to believe the best about others. Unfortunately, that kindness and openness can make someone vulnerable to being targeted. The world is not all bad. I do not want to say that. Maybe he did have a bad childhood, or maybe he was just upset that day. But being preyed upon for your big heart is what I see most often.
Jacobsen: What about getting caught or having the problem behaviour pointed out? What tends to happen then?
Alexander: They react with outrageous defensiveness. There is usually an uproar of gaslighting or complete denial of responsibility. They hate having their flaws pointed out because they are deeply insecure.
It can be very dangerous to point out an abuser’s flaws one-on-one. That confrontation can trigger them to react with explosive outrage. My ex nearly killed me because he could not find his car keys — and somehow, that became my fault. He started burning my handbags on the stove and then beat me for four hours simply because he could not find his keys.
Survivors are always told that they are in the wrong and made to bear the entire responsibility for the relationship.
It is hard to get out because reasonable people operate differently. In a normal partnership, you can say, “Hey, I did not appreciate when you did that — would you mind not doing that again?” Or “Did you have a bad day?” In a healthy relationship, you are supposed to share your flaws and humanity. It is supposed to be a safe space. That is where real growth, connection, and depth are formed.
But with an abuser, that does not exist. It is complicated, and it is dangerous.
Jacobsen: How do future victims typically fall into the orbit of these individuals, given how dangerous they are?
Alexander: I have never seen an abuser start off abusing. It always begins with what is called the “love bombing” phase, and that term is very accurate.
During this phase, they are on perfect behaviour. To paint the picture — and while abuse exists in all relationship types, I will use a heterosexual male-female relationship as an example — the man is like “Mr. Romeo”: showering the woman with gifts, going the extra mile, being constantly available, being overbearingly wonderful.
And that is a trap.
They can keep up the act for months — my ex kept it up for about five months before things turned insane — but they can also keep it up for years. There is no fixed timeline. Slowly but surely, the real personality comes out.
All of that love bombing is the honey underneath the trap. You are eating the honey without realizing that a cage is being built around you, and by the time you notice, it is very hard to get out.
That is how they do it — they are very good at it.
Jacobsen: And often, they are celebrated figures, right? Especially among celebrities?
Alexander: Exactly. They have often celebrated figures in positions of power with much to offer, and people idolize and glorify them.
That power they accumulate makes it even harder for someone to speak out and say, “Hey, this person you idolize — this is who they are.”
And because these abusers create and even believe in their idealized image, it becomes a very powerful tool. They are often so convincing that survivors are not believed when they speak up.
Jacobsen: For those who survive — those who are not murdered — and attempt to rebuild their lives, what is the range of reactions you have seen? Coping strategies, levels of thriving, levels of barely surviving, or even spiralling into self-harm?
Alexander: There are good and bad coping strategies, and it all depends on access — access to resources, access to treatments, and access to the correct treatments. Not all therapies work for trauma.
It also comes down to willingness — how ready the person is — and how stuck they are in the situation. For example, court cases can drag out the trauma. We see this, particularly in Canada, where survivors can be dragged through the court system for years. You cannot fully recover if you still have looming trial dates. Your brain stays stuck in trauma until the court process is finished until it is wrapped up, and until you can truly let it go.
As for coping strategies, I have seen the good, the bad, and the ugly.
Substance abuse is sadly very common among survivors. I would even flip that: most women who struggle with substance abuse have suffered some form of deep trauma. Overworking is another coping strategy — the constant need to stay busy, the guilt around relaxing — that is a conditioned trauma response.
You also see emotional dysregulation — the brain constantly thinking it is in danger, always operating in a hypervigilant state.
There can also be patterns of promiscuity — survivors sometimes try to “redo” the trauma experience, trying to gain mastery over it, hoping for a different outcome. That is another common response.
Unfortunately, our current systems do not offer the right support for trauma survivors.
On the positive side, once someone has access to trauma-informed therapy — EMDR, myofascial therapy, or somatic therapies — their coping strategies can become healthier.
Yoga is an amazing coping strategy, especially trauma-informed yoga. Pilates and gentle movement practices are powerful tools.
Trauma fundamentally involves a rigorous violation of consent, so having a gentler approach to healing is essential.
Exercise, being in nature, and proper nutrition can all be strong coping tools. Sleep is often disrupted for survivors, so getting assistance with sleep — sometimes even through pharmaceuticals — can be important because the brain needs restorative sleep to heal.
Water activities, like swimming, can help survivors move energy through their bodies in a soothing, methodical way.
Journaling is important, too. Talking to someone can help, but sometimes, avoiding oversharing is just as important. Oversharing can be a trauma response as well. When survivors tell long, sprawling, sometimes incomprehensible stories, the brain often tries to expel overwhelming experiences.
We all experience trauma to varying degrees in life. Sadly, no one gets through life entirely unscathed. Part of the human condition is managing trauma — recognizing what is healthy and what is unhealthy and learning to navigate those experiences.
Jacobsen: I have spoken to some experts who work with individuals who have Cluster B personality disorders — the personality disorders that are often linked to perpetrators — as you mentioned earlier. What about the possibility of change? Is there any chance that an individual like that can change?
For instance, have there been cases where someone was showing early signs of abusive tendencies, but before overt abuse happened, they went to couples counselling, and, through a lot of conscious effort and goodwill, they changed? I do not expect that to be common — or to happen in most cases.
I expect it to be a super minority of cases if it happens at all. But I wanted to know if you, in your work, had come across or heard about that.
Alexander: That is why early detection is so important. We need to work on this starting in the elementary years because the signs are generally there.
I firmly believe that there is a natural and a nurture element to developing a Cluster B diagnosis. It is both. I do not think it is exclusively one or the other—although maybe there are cases where it leans heavily to one side—but generally, it is a combination.
There are ways to heal almost everything, but it comes down to free will. One of the biggest issues with antisocial personality disorders — narcissistic, psychopathic, and Machiavellian traits — is that they do not believe anything is wrong with them. So why would they seek treatment?
I saw that with my ex. In his mind, what he did to me was somehow my fault. I was the one who needed therapy to deal with what he had done, even though he was the one committing the offences.
Whether it is a lack of moral consciousness or something else, individuals with dark triad traits do not believe they are wrong.
So, how do you help someone unwilling to admit they did anything wrong?
With disorders like borderline personality disorder or histrionic personality disorder, there can be more self-awareness. There is at least an ability to communicate and say, “Hey, what if we worked on this?” There are ways to address and work through those issues.
But with true narcissistic, psychopathic, and Machiavellian personalities, it isn’t easy. Thankfully, we are not talking about a majority of people. That is a relief. Most people are not like this. But the ones who are can be very dangerous.
I hope medicinal treatments will one day be available, but again, it comes down to free will and the willingness to seek help.
And that is the complicated issue — we cannot force people to accept treatment. So how do you help them?
Jacobsen: According to experts, when do these negative personality traits start to show? What is the earliest reasonable point for diagnosis?
Alexander: I do not think it is fair to diagnose infants or anything like that — and I am not a doctor — but somewhere in the elementary years, you start to see signs. There are often early warning indicators. Usually, something is going on at home.
My mother was an elementary school teacher, and I remember conversations with her about students. Based on their behaviour patterns, she could predict, even in grade three, which kids would graduate high school and which were at risk of ending up in jail.
Something happening in that child’s home life usually triggers the disruption we see at school. Suppose we catch these signs early and help the child. In that case, we have a real opportunity to end cycles of generational trauma.
But again, it comes down to willingness — and it comes down to how we support young people who are noticeably dysregulated. EMDR works on young minds. It can help. ADHD is often misinterpreted and can sometimes mask trauma or disruption at home.
How can we help younger children? How can we teach them about consent? How can we teach them to regulate their emotional states? My mom taught meditation to her grade two and three students, and she had the calmest classroom. Even when stuck inside on rainy days, the children could get through the day without chaos because they had the tools to self-regulate.
If we assist teachers—because teachers truly are heroes—in teaching their students math, reading, and writing and how to connect to their own bodies and emotions, there is an incredible opportunity to raise a healthier, more emotionally resilient generation.
But yes, it usually starts in the younger years. You can often see it.
Abuse of animals is a major early warning sign. If you go back through the histories of a lot of known abusers — including my ex — you will often find abuse directed toward anything more innocent or dependent than them.
Animals, especially pets, rely on humans for food, safety, and shelter. Neglect or mistreatment of those beings is indicative of future abusive patterns.
Jacobsen: When building community around survivors, how do you do it right? And how do you do it wrong?
Alexander: The first word that comes to mind is gentleness. Survivors have already been through someone trying to control them — they need a softer, safer place to land.
Slow down. That is generally what survivors need: predictability, stability, and reliability.
Those are qualities that survivors require to heal because most of their lives have been filled with unpredictability.
Believing in survivors is essential. Empathy and compassion are critical.
Empowerment is also a big concept here. That old idiom: “Teach a person to fish, and they will eat for a lifetime.”
Survivors are generally intelligent, kind, and good people. They need validation—validation of their feelings and experiences—but also encouragement that they are capable.
Kind words go an incredibly long way for people who have been abused.
Acknowledgment of even small achievements and successes is essential in the healing process.
In the right community, anyone can heal. I am living proof of that.
With the level of violence I have experienced in my life, I should not be here — but I am — because I got the warm hug I needed from people.
I got that return to societal stability and safety, more or less, even though my ex is still free.
Kindness and gentleness — that is the right way.
Jacobsen: And how do you do it wrong?
Alexander: You mimic the abuser’s behaviour — which, unfortunately, is what many governments do to survivors.
Power, control, demanding proof, questioning feelings: “Where’s your evidence? Why are you still crying? What is wrong with you? It is over now. Move on.”
That is how much of the justice system treats survivors — and it is deeply ineffective. It does not bring true justice.
I was in an intimate partner violence (IPV) murder trial last Wednesday in Superior Court in Toronto.
The way the judge and the defence counsel treated the family — who had lost their daughter because the system let an abuser out after he had already strangled her once — was shameful.
The abuser went back and killed her a few months later. And yet, the way that grieving family was treated in court — shame on Canada for allowing the system to be like that.
It is abhorrent. And I do not think it is because of ignorance — it is likely incompetence and laziness.
Creating a community where people feel genuinely listened to is essential.
I want to focus on the positive because we already know where the negative is: Our culture does not do a good enough job.
Jacobsen: In terms of media coverage, how does the media do? And I mean everything from the factual reporting level to the coverage’s proportionality, depending on the case.
Alexander: Nothing is perfect. However, my experience with the Canadian media has been overwhelmingly positive. End Violence Everywhere (EVE) would not exist without their support.
EVE would not have launched if the Canadian media had not been willing to follow the story. I have never had a negative experience with mainstream Canadian media outlets.
Jacobsen: Journalists are responsible, and most do their utmost to do it right. A journalist started the entire Me Too movement. Journalism is an effective tool. It is an essential tool, especially in this day and age when we are constantly consuming content. Journalists must always tell the truth and uphold the values of good journalism. Still, they must also understand that this is a sensitive subject. These are people’s lives.
Alexander: Most journalists want to do right. I firmly believe that, and that has been my experience. Journalism can also be a power. It is a strong tool that can be used for good. Sensationalizing these stories is wrong. We need to get to where we can name the perpetrators and have their mugshots. That is essential. It is both a warning to the public and a safety measure.
Jacobsen: There must be much respect and care, especially when dealing directly with a survivor. There must be much care, not just in reporting a story but in communication itself. It has to be personal. It can be done properly. Media, when used ethically, changes governments. I have seen it with my own eyes — the media publicizes things in a way that frustrates the community enough to change the tone of a caucus. It is a beautiful thing.
Alexander: I do not think going public is for everyone, especially on the most sensitive days of your life, because it can be incredibly difficult. Last summer, there was a situation involving Anita Vandenbeld, a Liberal MP. I spoke at the House of Commons before the Status of Women Committee. I shared my personal story, complete with photos of my black-and-blue, bloody body and 25 other survivor stories.
Anita Vandenbeld put forward a motion about abortion to hijack the meeting and derail it because she did not like what I was saying about Trudeau or that I was holding him accountable. I walked out of the meeting, along with the other witness. It became a media circus for weeks. A reporter called me during that time and said, “The Liberals want to say you are running for a Conservative caucus and that you are a pawn.” I told him, “If you publish that story, I will sue you quickly. You better not run that because it is not true. I live in Los Angeles. What am I doing? Running for office by proxy? This is insanity.”
Jacobsen: It is dangerous if the government sponsors media outlets. That can become a very big problem. The media needs to remain independent. The media must continue to do its job effectively, but governments must stay out. That is where we could go wrong. By and large, though, journalists are doing a great job.
What about the extension of intimate partner violence into workplace discrimination and violence? How are policies being changed there, if at all, in different sectors to reduce the possibility of these instances happening?
Alexander: If you see something, you need to say something. I am an employer. It is my responsibility to make sure that my team is looked after. Of course, they have their own lives, but if I saw abuse, it would be my duty to report it. It is my responsibility to at least ask, “Are you okay? How can I help you?”
I believe it is law that if there is an incident of sexual assault (SA) or intimate partner violence (IPV), employers must give people time off. I am unsure if that is a provincial or federal law; I would have to check. But there are always signs.
My dad’s secretary was murdered by her partner on December 21, 2016. She did not come to work, and my dad went to her house, where he found her body and her ex-partner’s body. He had shot her and then himself. My dad had already asked her to move in with him and my mother, but she said she would do it after Christmas. It is important to intervene now if you see signs of abuse in your staff.
She should be alive. She could have been saved. We all have a responsibility to end this because it is happening in our communities and is not an issue that only affects individuals privately. These are public problems, and everyone has a responsibility. If they see signs, they should intervene. Of course, people should use intelligence and act safely, but intervention is the only way to end it.
Jacobsen: What is the rate now in terms of intimate partner violence (IPV) leading to murder in Canada? You mentioned in another conversation that the numbers have increased quite a bit during the Trudeau years.
Alexander: There has been a 27% increase, almost 30% over the last five years.
Jacobsen: What does that translate into in total numbers?
Alexander: 187 women were murdered in 2022. That is the last full number I have. We are losing a woman about once every one to two days right now.
The biggest issue is that there are very few situations where there is no history of abuse. For instance, Britney Doff — whose trial I was at last week — was strangled by her ex. He had six charges against him, and the justice system let him go. They told him, “We will remove your charges if you go through this PARS program.”
Jacobsen: What does PARS stand for?
Alexander: The Partner Assault Response program. It should be easy to remember but hard because these programs are inadequate. They often teach abusers how to be more manipulative.
Kadeem Nedrick went through that program. After three sessions, he went and stabbed Britney to death in front of their son. Their son was four years old at the time — he is now around seven or eight — and he was autistic. He witnessed everything.
As much as Kadeem Nedrick is responsible for his actions, the Government of Canada is also responsible. After strangling Britney and being formally charged, the government let him go. The same way they let my ex go. The same way they let Brianna Broadfoot’s ex go, and he successfully killed her last July — she was only 17 or 18 years old, from London.
The same way they let Caitlyn Jennings’ abuser go, and he killed her in July 2023. In the same way, case after case. The recidivism of abusers is extremely high. When they get away with it, they become empowered. They start to feel invincible, and they know that they are.
Just last week, I received news of another case: second-degree murder and indignity to a body. A man killed a woman in her early 30s who had two children around September of last year. He was charged but is now out on bail for only $2,500.
That is the state of the nation. That is bad Liberal policy — specifically C-75 — and it is killing us. The government’s hands are covered in blood.
We filed a Charter lawsuit with Catherine Marshall, a great litigator in Canada. We—14 plaintiffs and myself—have filed for infringement of our Section 7 Charter rights: life, liberty, and security of the person. The lawsuit has been well received by many members of Parliament across all parties. We are hoping for real change because we cannot continue like this.
Jacobsen: What about safety and security?bSo a woman or man comes forward. They have been abused. They may have been severely assaulted to the point of nearly being murdered, or they may have been a victim of sexual assault. They manage to get out. Where do they go? Where do they find safety? What are some typical patterns, whether friends, family, nonprofits, or halfway houses?
Alexander: Oof. I wish there were easy answers. We are working on a solution for this because Canada — and the United States to a degree, but Canada to a greater extent — has a major housing crisis for everyone, let alone for survivors.
There is nowhere to send them. Every shelter in this country is full. I have called shelters in Winnipeg, Barrie, Nova Scotia—you name it.
So, we are building a modular homes community to house survivors. They can come, no questions asked, have their own independent living space, access medical care and trauma treatments, access education for young children, and simply get away.
That is why many women stay. Where are you supposed to go? Friends and family are an option, but many survivors have been isolated from friends and family because isolation is one of the main tactics of abusers.
What do we do for those people? We have put them up in hotels and Airbnb, but those are not real residences. That is a serious issue we need to address, and we are working every day to create a solution.
Jacobsen: From your research, what societies are more advanced in addressing these issues? Maybe we can approach this question from three different angles. First, within the international community, although the ideal number would be zero, which societies or types of societies have the lowest rates of sexual assault, intimate partner violence, and related issues?
Second, for those societies — whether they have high or low rates — which ones have the most robust, evidence-based provisions for survivors that work? And third, what kinds of cultures, political environments, policies, and legal systems are the most robust in processing these crimes and delivering proportional justice?
Alexander: It is important. People might not like this answer because it has teeth, but punishments need to reflect the crime.
You see it in countries where severe punishments lead to greater safety. Japan is one of them. I do not necessarily agree with everything going on in El Salvador from a human rights perspective, but the government there has cleaned up all of the gangs. Now, people can live safely.
From a public safety perspective, that kind of firm response can work. Canada, on the other hand, is the opposite example. There are bad policies, and criminals know it. They park in countries like Canada because they know they can escape.
A cop friend once said that he was on duty and asked a criminal, “You guys used to make it so difficult to find you when you committed crimes. Why is it so easy now?” You used to hide and are blatantly committing these offences in the open. He said, “Yes. It is easier to get booked and be out the next day than it is to bother trying to run from you guys anyway. That is what is going on in Canada.”
When criminals know there are no real punishments, they will keep offending. It is essential that we culturally handle these individuals. Again, they are a subset of the population—about 1% committing 66% of the crime.
It is important to recognize that and deal with it appropriately. That does not mean prison should be brutal. Some people are saveable. Some people can be rehabilitated. But I do not think people who commit serial murders or offence after offence should be let back out. That is unfair to innocent people just trying to have a normal life.
You see, in countries that have fewer than a dozen rapes reported a year, they have severe punishments. People feel safer because serious justice will be laid down if they commit an offence.
Jacobsen: What countries are the reverse of that? Where is it almost clownish in terms of no policy or law?
Alexander: Canada. I hate to say the quiet part out loud, but Canada is falling into that trap. It is much safer in the United States right now. And there are problems in the U.S., do not get me wrong. But it is a lot safer there.
The U.S. has ten times the population, yet it feels safer per capita in many places. Canada is in a bad state right now. There are also countries in the Middle East where there are obvious problems — Israel, Gaza, everywhere — but Canada has unfortunately fallen into that same direction.
My biggest fear is that we are at a tipping point right now. It is either going to go one way or the other. We are working hard to bring Canada back to what we thought it was growing up. But if it continues down this path, good luck. I would not raise my children there, and I would not want to have a daughter in that country.
Jacobsen: When you look at the demographics of those victimized by this, are we looking at older populations, younger populations, middle-aged populations? Are we looking at Indigenous women? Non-Indigenous women? How does that break down?
I can bring in a U.S. analogy. In the United States, if you look at the majority of school shootings, they are primarily committed by white boys, and the biggest uptick is around age 17. You can target some of these things demographically.
It is about the way they express their frustrations. Some Hispanic boys get into gangs. Some African-American boys get into gangs. Troubled youth manifest their issues in different subcultural ways.
So, when we are looking at this, are you asking about when women generally get abused or when the abusers start?
Alexander: Good question. On the former point — those who are most likely to be victimized — it tends to be girls aged 18 to 24.
That is a large population where you will see the numbers skewed upwards, but it happens to anyone. We serve survivors who are 80 years old. We see it happen to young children as well.
It usually starts early, and yes, there are much higher rates in Indigenous populations, largely due to the traumas learned through colonization and residential schools. Those traumas have carried onward. We are seeing the aftereffects of that. We are seeing a lack of respect, racism, and indignity toward people who deserve much more support.
But abuse can happen to anyone. I would not be the stereotypical person you would expect. I come from an upper-middle-class Caucasian family, am twice university-educated, have a global perspective, am well-traveled, and my parents are still together. I check all the boxes that would be the antithesis of what people typically imagine.
However, abuse can happen to anyone. We do not talk enough about abuse happening in so-called “good “neighbourhoods because of stereotypes, stigma, and a culture of keeping up appearances. There is much shame.
I went public to help end that stigma and help people realize that this is happening in their backyards—even if they want to ignore it or do not recognize it.
When it comes to abusers, we can pinpoint and profile them. But survivors and victims can come from anywhere. All of the women I mentioned earlier who were murdered came from completely different walks of life.
The one throughline I see — the one common factor — is usually that the victim was a kind person. Usually, someone sweet, not naive or sheltered, but good and trusting. That is the only significant similarity if we are looking at demographics or categories.
An agreeable personality type can certainly be a target. There is some correlation there. So yes, 18- to 24-year-old women are statistically more susceptible. It should also be noted that a child who experiences abuse or sexual assault in their elementary years is twice as likely to end up in an abusive relationship as an adult. Twice as likely. It doubles the risk.
That is not some mythical reasoning. Trauma causes biological and cellular change, especially during development. It wires the nervous system to seek out what is familiar—even if what feels familiar is unsafe.
So, you have young children who are assaulted and abused, and their nervous systems are wired to be attracted to abusive dynamics later in life.
That is why early intervention is essential. Early healing is also critical—not just going through the criminal court process or reporting, but actively healing the nervous system and body of the young person. It can be done ethically and morally soundly. It is important to access healing early.
We are all susceptible to this. That is why boundaries are important, developing an independent identity is important, and encouraging people to understand what is comfortable for them—and what is not—is essential in helping prevent the perpetuation of abuse.
Jacobsen: Are single-parent families a risk factor, or are inattentive or absentee parenting or overworked parents a factor in 18——to 24-year-old girls being at greater risk—especially if the young adults are still living at home during that time?
Alexander: 100%, but also not entirely. We have served survivors who were living at home in upper-middle-class households with present and supportive parents, and the abuse still occurred. Having a supportive family is a mitigating factor. It can help prevent abuse. But again, abusers are master manipulators.
My entire family — including my six-foot-eight, 275-pound Olympic athlete brother and my parents — thought I was going to marry my ex, who later tried to kill me. They thought he was the greatest guy on earth for the first couple of months.
So, growing up in a stable household does not hurt — but it is not the only determining factor. That is a stigma that needs to end. You can have a good, supportive household and still end up being swindled by an abuser.
Jacobsen: Are a lot of these individuals typically living parasitic lifestyles? Could you elaborate?
Alexander: Basically, they do not have any sustained periods of employment. They exploit people for finances. They manipulate others to get what they want: a meal, a place to live, or money.
Jacobsen: So the variety of tactics you are alluding to is that they are not just being abusive within their relationships but also in how they interact day-to-day in broader society.
Alexander: Yes. It stands to reason, and 90% to 95% of the cases match that pattern. Abuse generally starts small and escalates over time.
I do not think it is possible for someone capable of the violence I experienced to have a normal, healthy relationship with anyone — not with their children, not with their ex-spouses, not with friends. I believe my ex is involved in some form of criminal enterprise.
This is where the court systems, particularly the family court system, go so inherently wrong. They allow abusers continued access to children even after serious offences like strangling the mother. Abuse is never isolated to a single individual. They cannot maintain the façade for very long. You can draw a parallel to the Diddy cases, the Weinsteins, andthe Epsteins. The behaviour patterns are everywhere across their lives.
Many abusers become very skilled at manipulation. They use it to gain resources and to double down on the abuse because having access to wealth, homes, and status creates the image of power and success. Society tends to respect people with material resources, thinking they are something to admire. That becomes very dangerous.
So yes, abusers’ tactics are not limited to one relationship or situation. It is a full pattern of behaviour across every area of their lives. They cannot be normal. They need everything to be a game. Their targeted victim — their primary victim — also becomes part of their strategy for manipulating others.
If they have a good person by their side, it makes them look even better. They use the good person’s reputation — the innocent person — to make themselves appear more innocent. People often say, “Well, he is married, so he must be a good guy. Why would she be with him if he were bad?” That is a constant. They use people. They use others to construct an identity because they do not have a real, sound identity.
Jacobsen: The way you said that — there are two parts. First, they do not have a genuine identity. Second, they see everything as a game. From our side of things — and I have been subjected to abuse as well — it is like everything is fun and games to them. But this is your life. It is serious. To them, it is a game. And there is barely anyone “home” on their side. That is dangerous.
Alexander: Everyone is disposable to them. Right?
Jacobsen: Yep.
Alexander: Everyone is disposable, and no action is too small or outrageous. They will go to extreme lengths to maintain their power and control.
For instance, in my civil case, because I am still in civil litigation with my ex, remember that he is free. There are no consequences, and there are no criminal consequences at all. The peace bond expired a month ago, and I do not even have any legal protection against him.
I could send you the photos and videos of him nearly beating me to death right now, and he is out there living as if nothing happened. He lied under oath in our civil litigation. He is countersuing me, claiming that I was self-injurious — that I tried to kill myself that day — and that I fell down the stairs, that I threw myself down the stairs.
That is forensically impossible. Visibly impossible. But he is willing to lie under oath to frame the narrative around himself. So, where is the moral compass? I cannot even comprehend it sometimes. It is mind-boggling. Still, you read this about yourself or see it happen repeatedly — they constantly lie. Constantly. There is not a situation where they do not lie.
Alexander: The problem with inadequate systems is that they allow these lies to succeed — over and over and over again. Abusers learn how to manipulate the system, and eventually, that becomes their entire identity.
Jacobsen: But do they at least want to be seen as great people publicly? And by “public,” I mean family, friends — if they have them — or anyone in their circle who might be seeing them.
Alexander: I am not that person who can fully understand it. I remember once I was working on a song with my songwriting coach, and I asked him, “I want to know why. Why is he doing this? What is the point of all of this?” To me, there was no gain. What is the success of this? There is nothing to achieve here.
Alexander: My songwriting coach told me, “You must be an entirely different person to understand or answer that question.”
Jacobsen: What did they mean by that?
Alexander: They meant that you and I are probably never going to be able to sit in the abuser’s mind and understand because it does not make logical sense. It boils down to power and control. I know those terms are widely used, but what do they mean? Power at all costs. They always need to be right.
They do not necessarily want to look good for family members because they genuinely care about appearances. It is a means to an end. Looking good in front of family members gives them power over people.
Looking good in the public eye — look at Diddy — gives you power over people. People form positive assumptions about you. So, there is the power aspect. Looking good and acting good gives you a track record and more leeway. That is the control aspect.
It is all a means to an end. If eating spaghetti gave them power and control, they would obsess over eating spaghetti. But they obsess over their image because looking good in public gives them power and control. That is why they do not want to be named publicly. That is why it is important to name and hold them accountable.
One of the last things my ex said near the end of the relationship was, “I pay good money to be kept off the Internet.” I will never forget that. I thought, “What? That is a strange thing to say.” Now I understand why. He hates that, even though he has never been convicted, we have found a legal way to ensure people know who he is, what he has done, and where he lives — without being sued. He cannot stand that.
I saw how it affected him. Last year, once everything went public, he would play his music at a decibel so high that it would make you want to vomit, disturbing the entire neighbourhood for days. His façade is crumbling. He is not going to be able to lie his way into trapping another woman. He will not be able to lie his way into manipulating his son. He will not be able to lie his way through life anymore.
So now he is stuck with himself — and that must be not very good.
Jacobsen: Regarding the R v. Jordan case (2016), how has that impacted intimate partner violence cases in Canada, particularly case dismissals related to court delays?
Alexander: Oh, it has been lethal. It is one of the worst decisions ever made by the Supreme Court. I understand why they made that decision. On paper, it makes sense — because we should have the right to a speedy trial.
But here is the problem: these are ivory-tower policymakers living in theoretical land, making executive decisions that force people on the ground to suffer immeasurably. An attorney, a survivor, a survivor’s family, or a judge who does not want to go through this process effectively and expeditiously and move on.
The problem is that the Supreme Court put this law in place, and the government did not respond. The Trudeau government did not respond effectively, and neither did the provinces. The system was not equipped to handle legislation like that.
With 50% of the cases in the courts being intimate partner violence, sexual assault, and femicide — 50% — and with 2.5 days out of every 5-day court week dedicated solely to these issues, the foresight should have been there. Many of these cases were inevitably thrown out because of this decision. That was a giant mistake.
R v. Jordan should be undone. It should not have existed until the court systems were ready to handle those deadlines. Even as it stands, it should not apply to serious cases. It should not be weaponized as it is now, where defence counsel intentionally delays the process to push it over the time limit.
I would have waited eight years, twenty years, for my day in court. I would have rather waited that long than have my case thrown out. The emotional and personal impact of that — it rips your heart out. It makes you feel like you are taking crazy pills.
And it is happening ad nauseam. That is what our lawsuit is about. We see it all the time. It is making the streets more dangerous for Canadians everywhere. R v. Jordan should either not exist or should have clear exceptions. There should be a giant asterisk saying it does not apply to sexual assault, intimate partner violence, and femicide cases.
Applying it to traffic infractions or administrative issues is fine. But when it comes to human-on-human crimes involving extreme violence, it absolutely should not apply. It is inhumane. It is unethical.
One of the foundations of our Charter lawsuit is that R v. Jordan contradicts the rest of the Charter and makes it easy for criminals to get out of jail free. It is a nasty decision.
Jacobsen: Your testimony before the Status of Women Committee in the Parliament of Canada had a couple of reactions: one was the standard controversy, another was walkouts. What was that experience like for you, and how did it shape your view of political engagement at the federal level?
Alexander: It was the worst thing that Anita Vandenbeld could have done. It was a continuation of the justice process that I had already experienced. Sadly, I had the emotional placeholder for that type of experience. What Anita did that day — hijacking the meeting — was a visible, public way of saying, “We do not care about survivors. Sit down. Shut up.”
What she did exposed the entire broken system. That is where my gratitude for the media comes in: They captured it and held her accountable in a way that survivors themselves often cannot.
We cannot forget the support of NDP MP Leah Gazan. Her support was crucial in this. If you look at the Zoom meeting, you can see it because Leah was on Zoom, and Anita was in the room. You can see, through Gazan’s paper, the word “abortion” written in big letters. They planned it. They planned to hijack the meeting.
They had no intention of coming in and having a respectful, dignified meeting with decorum. There were also about twenty-five minutes of Leah arguing about whose hand was up first, which followed after Anita’s motion about abortion.
We were sitting there. I was spinning around in the chair. I went and sat with my parents. I went and got a coffee. I was watching them act worse than kindergarten children. That is why we walked out.
It is hard to rank things sometimes, but it was one of the worst feelings. But, again, it was nothing I was not already used to—because that is how the entire system operates. So, I am grateful to Anita for being so blatantly disrespectful. It allowed everyone to see how terrible the Trudeau government has handled things.
I am grateful that my family was there. I am grateful that Megan Walker, the other witness beside me, and I were on the same page. We sat there, staring at each other, thinking, “What are we doing here? This is insane.”
It hurt. It still hurts. I am grateful that Pierre Poilievre has sent over staffers to support us. No one walked out of that room without crying. Adrienne LaRoche from the Bloc was bawling. After the cameras stopped rolling, my mom went over and had a few choice words for Anita. Anita ended up pressing the panic button, and parliamentary security came up. It was ridiculous.
The victim mentality that Anita Vandenbeld tries to project — I have a personal issue with that. It is so abusive what she did. It was textbook gaslighting. It was all the tactics abusers use.
It reminded me of everything — where you are holding up some of the evidence from your case, explaining your story, explaining that you want to change, that these are the problems, asking for an open and honest discussion — and then having someone who thinks they are more powerful than you behave like that.
No. I do not have time for that anymore. I do not need to play in that sandbox. So yes, it was the worst thing she could have done. It was a strange, backhanded gift with a slap in the face.
At what point did Anita Vandenbeld press the panic button? That might be a nuanced question that has not been asked. That was at the end after the camera stopped rolling. So much occurred off-camera that people did not get to see, and that was also problematic because Anita was in a constant state of denial.
Not only was there the planned hijacking between her and Leah Gazan, but more happened after the meeting was adjourned, and we all exited. My dad and I stood outside the room with a few Conservative MPs, Bloc MPs, reporters, and staffers.
Then I heard something — I recognized my mom’s voice. I said, “What’s that?” My dad immediately went back inside. My mom was “mama bearing” — standing up for her daughter and other survivors. She told Anita that what had happened was unacceptable and would be a problem.
My mom is not a violent person by any means, but she had every right to defend her child. What Anita did was wrong. Then Anita pressed the panic button, and parliamentary security showed up. My mom was in tears and said — and it is comical in a way — “You can arrest me.”
They said, “Ma’am, we are not arresting you. You have not done anything wrong. This was just a verbal altercation.” But my mom insisted, “You can arrest me, but you cannot arrest my daughter. She has to go back to America where she will be safe.” I thought, “Oh my God, that is so adorable.” My mom is an elementary school teacher. She follows the rules. But when you reach a certain point, after seeing so much wrongdoing, it just becomes too much.
When you are trying to do the right thing, trying to take care of survivors because no one else seems to understand, and then you see the government behaving like this — I do not even have words for how wrong it was.
What Anita did was bad enough, but the real kicker was what happened afterward. We wrote identical letters to all party leaders—Trudeau, Pierre Poilievre, Yves-François Blanchet, and Jagmeet Singh. We said, “This is what happened. Here is your opportunity to publicly apologize.”
Everyone else responded appropriately—except Trudeau and the Liberals. Anita had ample opportunity. I asked for a public apology and said I would accept it. I even said, “Maybe you had a bad day. I am willing to give you that. I am human, too. I mess up.”
But she would not do it. Instead, she said, “You pulled me from my constituency.” She lives eighteen minutes away from the Wellington Building — eighteen minutes. I flew up from Los Angeles the day before, a fourteen-hour journey. She was eighteen minutes away and made it about herself.
She made herself the victim in the situation. That is textbook gaslighting. 100%. It is exactly what abusers do. There is no respect there. I cannot respect someone who behaves like that. If she were ever to come forward and apologize, I would accept it. I would extend the olive branch and move on. But until then, there is no respect left.
I believe in being able to cross party lines and communicate with people you disagree with. But you have to own your mistakes in that process. She does not, and I cannot respect her for that.
Jacobsen: Why are rural girls and women at higher risk of femicide than urban girls?
Alexander: I was also born into a smaller community. There is a lack of resources and support, less to do, fewer entertainment options, and fewer services. Isolating someone in a rural community is much easier than in a city.
I am not saying people who live in rural communities are uneducated—look at my parents—but there might not be as strong a social services network, education systems, or schools nearby. Isolation is a big one. It is much easier to isolate someone on a farm or small town than in an urban setting. My full town would have been twenty minutes across.
Jacobsen: You have been covered in a podcast, Global News, CTV News, a Star Gala fundraising article, Toronto Life, and a Global News report. You were again on The Voice of Women podcast, CBTV News, and Global News.
Of all those — including Le Monde — which one has been the most “newsy”? By that, I mean objective, fair, and evidence-based in reporting your case specifically or broader issues like IPV, femicide, or SA, where you spoke as an expert.
Alexander: The most in-depth one was the Toronto Life article. That was an hours-long interview process with the amazing Andrea Yu, who ghostwrote it. Plus, there was a full photo shoot. The whole team at Toronto Life — Rad Novak and everyone — was so lovely.
That piece was the most personal because of its structure. But overall, over 80 different news outlets and independent podcasts have covered this in the past year. It has been everybody.
I am fortunate to have known some of these people before, and those relationships have only strengthened. They have all been amazing. Through the Canadian Press, Liam Casey at Queen’s Park has been awesome. Cynthia Mulligan at CityTV—I have a special place in my heart for her. She is wonderful. CTV has had us on a few times.
My friends at Northern Perspective, Ryan and Tanya, have been great. Daryl Greer at The Globe on the West Coast did a really strong piece on R v. Jordan. Even the smaller outlets have been incredible. People in Sault Ste. Marie—Elaine, and Kenneth at The Sault Today—have been covering this nonstop.
Toronto Star has covered many of our events and featured us on their podcast. Everyone has been amazing, and I am grateful for that. I do not know if there is one outlet that stands out as more journalistic than the others.
The truth is, there is not much to argue about in these stories. It would be nice if the government recognized that and legislated accordingly. They need to address that.
If they could keep track of how many cases they stay, it would expose the size of the problem. But we do not know that number because no one must count it. The other thing is that these issues are not difficult to understand. The nature of the violence and discomfort is difficult, but figuring out what is going wrong is not some deep, complex mystery. It is obvious. We have a bad justice system in Canada. Everyone covering this has done a great job. I truly have no complaints.
Jacobsen: Speaking not from a Canadian legal-geography perspective but more from a regional or international one — what rights documents or national laws could be applied to pressure Canada to create a more robust legal and justice system?
Alexander: I am starting my American podcast tour this week, so I have been thinking about this a lot. There are many pages Canada could take from the U.S. playbook.
We should have more expeditious trials. We should be able to get to trial within sixty to ninety days. I do not think the Charter should be used as it currently is to prevent that, but we need faster timelines. We need to fund the justice system. That is one of the biggest problems — maybe the biggest. Yes, that falls under provincial responsibility, too, but it needs to happen urgently.
We need to repeal R v. Jordan or at least amend it. We also need to repeal Section 278, which allows the defence counsel and the accused to subpoena all personal records of the survivor—even private journals. That law makes survivors incredibly vulnerable. We need to get rid of Bill C-75. That should be first. It needs to go.
Australia created a Department for the Prevention of Male Violence — not the exact name, but something along those lines. Canada needs something similar. We need to understand these problems from the abuser’s perspective and start addressing the root causes. But the start — the absolute minimum — is to have a good justice system. That is essential right now. Prevention is important, yes. But we deal daily with criminals who are being caught, released, and reoffending immediately. So we need immediate action.
We need to make our judges work. Right now, they take extensive holidays. The court starts at 10:00 a.m., and then there is about an hour of setup and procedural stuff.
Then, they take a fifteen-minute recess, usually twenty to twenty-five minutes when everyone is seated again. Then you have another hour of proceedings, then a ninety-minute lunch. Then, you return for the afternoon session, take another recess, and the court wraps up around 4:00 or 4:30 p.m.
So they are working four hours a day. No wonder these cases get pushed over. They are not even putting in a full day of work. Our two-hour podcast is half a day’s work compared to what they do in court daily. They need to get to work.
I am sorry. Enough is enough. We need to have stricter penalties. We cannot be letting murderers out. Nope. That is not acceptable. Carla Homolka should still be in jail. What happened there is so wrong. We need to support the police officers in what they are doing. Canadians need to get over themselves and recognize what is happening.
It does not mean we need to be shamed, blamed, or hate ourselves, but we do need to recognize the reality. We need to move past the well-marketed ideology of being the country of maple syrup, hockey players, and polar bears—that wonderful caricature we like to play of ourselves.
But we have to understand: this is serious. And if we do not turn the page soon, we will have a bigger problem than we already have. Those changes can happen quickly if we have the right people in place and if we listen. There is no point in arguing about this or studying it further. We need to move.
Jacobsen: How was the Moving Affair Gala on October 24, 2024, at the Four Seasons in Toronto, where you raised $600,000 for survivors with Shelter Movers?
Alexander: Thank you. Shelter Movers is an amazing organization. It is a national charity that helps survivors physically move out of abusive situations, safely moving all of their belongings. Shelter Movers provides a specific, essential, and much-needed service right now.
The gala was beautiful. Jennifer Bassett—a world-class event planner and a fabulous human—organized it. It was an impactful, moving night. That was the first time I wanted to bring this cause into the mainstream gala circuit because it has not been there. There are many important causes, such as SickKids, Telehealth, Boost for Kids, and cancer research.
Those are all essential causes that deserve attention. But we also have this issue — domestic violence and survivor support — and it needs to be raised to the same level where we can bring in major funding. It costs much money to run these initiatives. It costs megabucks. That is just reality.
We need more people willing to support these initiatives — not just through awareness or writing their politicians, though essential — but also by donating if they can. It is about helping good people rebuild their lives without abuse. It was awesome to work with Shelter Movers. It was a pivotal event. Everybody in that room knew why they were there.
Of course, the Four Seasons is a beautiful venue, but beyond that, it was a special, deep, impactful evening.
Jacobsen: Would you prefer to talk about quotes or being the lead plaintiff?
Alexander: Let’s talk about the Charter case, which is important for people to know about.
Jacobsen: As lead plaintiff in a $15,000,000 lawsuit against the federal government for Charter rights violations, what are the key points people should know?
Alexander: This lawsuit is based on injustice in the justice system — which, sadly, has become the norm. Very few people get justice in the justice system. That is why I call it the injustice system. This Charter lawsuit is unprecedented. It is the first of its kind in Canadian history. Catherine Marshall is leading it — a phenomenal litigator — and her entire team, who have been doing this pro bono at no cost to survivors.
The case is based largely on the Jordan decision issues, where all the plaintiffs experienced some form of Jordan time-out — meaning they were not allowed justice because of delays — thereby infringing on our Section 7 Charter rights: safety, liberty, and freedom.
There are other issues within the case as well. For instance, in my case, my ex was let out on bail the next day for $500 — completely unacceptable. We have plaintiffs who lost their daughters needlessly to intimate partner violence, again tied to Bill C-75.
Of course, we are asking for a financial award because survivors deserve it. Every good civil lawsuit seeks fiscal damages. However, the major purpose of this lawsuit is to hold the government accountable for failing survivors — for failing to provide justice, which is their job.
No one else can fix the system except the government. Survivors and citizens do not have that power. Part of our ask is for them to repeal these bad laws, amend others, create new legislation, and enforce the Canadian Victims Bill of Rights — because while it exists, the way it is currently written nullifies itself.
They have written all this beautiful language about victims, but in the fine print, they say it does not have to be enforced. Therefore, it isn’t very sensible. We are holding the government accountable for that. We will not have a formal response to the lawsuit until after the election because we do not have a government right now.
We launched the suit, knowing this is a nonpartisan issue. Whoever wins the election will inherit the lawsuit. We want to work with all parties to fix these issues because they are nonpartisan. We are very much looking forward to the government’s response. We are also adding more plaintiffs because more people have come forward — and unfortunately, most cases have major problems like these.
We are proud to have put this work together to try to improve things for Canadians and to set a new tone and precedent.
Jacobsen: Kate, thank you for today’s opportunity and time. I appreciate your expertise, and it is nice to reconnect.
Alexander: Thank you so much, Scott. I appreciate it.
Jacobsen: You are welcome.
Alexander: Thanks so much. I hope you have a good rest of your day.
Jacobsen: You too. Take care.
Alexander: Bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/06
Michael Ashley Schulman, CFA, Chief Investment Officer of Running Point Capital Advisors, offers expert insight into current global financial dynamics. Schulman offers timely insights into macroeconomic trends, U.S. fiscal policy, and the global tech landscape. Schulman discusses the implications of President Trump’s $3.8 trillion budgetary package, the risks of deflation in China, and OpenAI’s $20 billion partnership with Abu Dhabi. He highlights the emergence of tokenized equities, Bitcoin’s behaviour in volatile markets, and the shifting dynamics of global investment ecosystems. Schulman emphasizes strategic diversification between U.S. and Chinese tech domains and notes the importance of climate risk in ECB policy. The conversation is wide-ranging, deeply analytical, and forward-looking.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: This discussion covers the period from May 8 to May 22. Today is May 22, 2025, and I’m speaking with Michael Ashley Schulman. Our sources include Reuters, Business Insider, Financial Times, The Guardian, and Fortune.
Let’s delve into fiscal policy and market reactions. The House of Representatives has narrowly passed President Trump’s “One Big Beautiful Bill,” a $3.8 trillion tax and spending package. The bill includes substantial tax cuts and spending increases.
This legislation has raised concerns about the national debt, which now stands at approximately $36.2 trillion. Could this lead to a spike in long-term Treasury yields or even a global market sell-off? What implications does such a significant spending package tied to major tax cuts have?
Michael Ashley Schulman: Firstly, while the House has passed the bill, the Senate still needs to review and possibly amend it, which could alter the final figures. The current estimate is $3.8 trillion, but with potential changes, it could increase to around $5 trillion.
President Trump’s trade policies, including tariffs and challenges to the global economic order, as well as his criticism of Federal Reserve Chair Jerome Powell, have impacted investor confidence in the U.S. dollar. Coupled with high deficits and growing debt, the dollar’s appeal has diminished.
Achieving the administration’s goals of reviving U.S. manufacturing, reducing the trade deficit, and rebalancing global trade may necessitate a weaker exchange rate. Ironically, this could be part of the strategy to expand opportunities for the U.S.
However, a clear resolution to these concerns is some time away. The U.S.–China tariff truce is set to expire on July 9, and the final approval of Trump’s tax cut bill might not occur until around the July 4 recess, once the Senate and House reconcile their versions. Following that, raising the debt ceiling could become the next pressing concern for investors, likely in July or August.
Jacobsen: Regarding yields, the current environment is prompting many investors to reassess their holdings in dollar-denominated assets, especially U.S. Treasuries. Long-term bonds are under pressure due to rising concerns about Washington’s mounting debt and deficits.
Schulman: Investors, analysts, and the broader market are now trying to determine how much higher yields might go, even if inflation does not materialize. If inflation increases, yields will likely rise further. But even without inflation, there remains the question of: how high will they go? Is now the time to step in and buy bonds, or should we continue to hold off?
Jacobsen: On the tech front, OpenAI has announced a $20 billion infrastructure partnership with Abu Dhabi’s G42 to develop a one-gigawatt AI cluster known as Stargate UAE. To provide context, one gigawatt is equivalent to the power used by 750,000 American homes. The initiative aims to make the UAE the first country to implement ChatGPT Plus nationwide, offering it free to all residents.
OpenAI has also acquired the hardware startup io, founded by former Apple design chief Jony Ive, to support its ambitions in creating consumer AI devices.
Do you have any thoughts on these fronts, especially considering the scale of financial commitment?
Schulman: Yes. I see two big pieces here.
Let’s start with Sir Jony Ive. That’s massive. He’s best known as the legendary designer behind the Apple iPhone and the iPod. His joining OpenAI strongly suggests that ChatGPT is moving toward hardware—specifically, in-house devices that could redefine how we interact with AI.
With Ive’s gift for turning raw metal into must-touch tech and Sam Altman’s knack for transforming neural tokens into eloquent interface experiences, the collaboration is being hyped as a likely origin for an ambient AI device—not quite a phone—more of a “voice-first, screen-last” companion. Think Star Trek ComBadge meets Jiminy Cricket—something whispering GPT insights from your collar rather than fighting for your screen time.
We’ve already seen some attempts in this space—like the Humane AI Pin and Rabbit R1—but they’ve largely flopped. So, the bar isn’t particularly high right now. The expectation is that Ive will deliver his trademark ergonomic minimalism paired with OpenAI’s cutting-edge intelligence. The result could feel less like a gadget and more like a polite, ever-present sixth sense—one that never forgets your calendar invites.
This deal also collapses a long-standing divide between cloud-based intelligence and physical devices. We’re entering an era where models and metal are converging. Expect a surge in demand for context-aware sensors, local inference chips, and subscription-based AI integrated into consumer hardware.
Jacobsen: What might this mean for consumers and investors?
Schulman: For consumers, the vision is a digital concierge—one that can offer recipe tips, manage spreadsheets, or even voice existential concerns—without hijacking your visual attention. For investors, it’s OpenAI aiming to own the final strategic moat: distribution.
Yes, hardware margins are traditionally less attractive than those of software, but if you combine Apple-level design with ChatGPT-level stickiness, you could end up with a pocketable product that becomes an annuity stream. In essence, this could be a new “app store”—but located on the underside of your collar.
The snarky version of me wants to say that screens are so 2025. What we’re seeing is the potential for ambient AI form factors—where inference happens locally on your lapel, and the cloud fills in the gaps. From a strategic standpoint, this could pose a real threat to Amazon Echo, Meta’s smart glasses, Apple Vision Pro, and other players.
Jacobsen: Is that inconceivable? Or could this happen?
Schulman: We’ll have to wait and see—but it’s certainly a powerful thesis and potentially quite disruptive.
Then there’s OpenAI’s $20 billion partnership with Abu Dhabi’s G42. That’s the infrastructure side. It’s all part of Stargate UAE—a plan to build one of the world’s largest AI training hubs. A gigawatt of computing power is enormous.
Jacobsen: So we’re seeing OpenAI scale vertically on two fronts: upward into infrastructure with G42 and outward into consumer hardware with Jony Ive and io. Together, these could give OpenAI greater control over both the cloud backend as well as the physical endpoint.
Schulman: Yes, the AI cluster that is part of OpenAI’s $20 billion partnership with Abu Dhabi’s G42 is substantial.
It would be one of the largest AI data centers outside the U.S., underscoring the UAE’s determination to pivot from oil to algorithms. For the regional economy, this move could be a masterstroke—it diversifies revenue streams and positions the UAE as a global hub for AI. So, investors take note.
The desert sands are shifting—and they are rich with silicon. On a global scale, the implications are profound. The U.S. gains a strategic ally in AI development, potentially counterbalancing China’s technological ascendancy. However, the risks are just as vast as the opportunities.
Geopolitical tensions could flare. Launching a project of this scale will invite scrutiny—it’s hard to go from zero to a behemoth without encountering stumbles or hiccups—it’s a bold leap into the future but one likely to face challenges along the way.
Look at The Line in Saudi Arabia—it’s a bold leap, too, but pivots are inevitable. By the time this is fully built, the technology landscape will have evolved. So, yes, there will be course corrections, but the project burns with potential.
Thus, we’ll be watching and interpreting the implications, as usual, with a healthy mix of skepticism and eager anticipation.
Jacobsen: Let’s pivot to Bitcoin. It’s at a record high now—what do we make of that?
Schulman: Yes, it’s remarkable. Currently, we’ve experienced significant global volatility in stocks, yields, and currencies. So the question is—for Bitcoin, which is inherently volatile—what happens when you stack its volatility on top of global volatility? Well, you’re off to the races, Scott.
What was it—six weeks ago? Bitcoin was around $83,000 to $86,000 and fell as low as $75,000. Now it’s at $111,000. That’s a huge jump. Yes, it’s volatile.
If you had asked most people five to eight years ago what would drive Bitcoin, they’d likely say it was a safety asset—something to hold if the world collapses. However, over the past four to five years, we’ve seen Bitcoin behave more like a “risk-on” asset and not a “flight to safety” asset.
Typically, when capital is plentiful, stocks rise, people spend, and Bitcoin goes up. When there’s a “risk-off” move—stocks are down, people yell and sell, and capital tightens—Bitcoin usually falls. It’s become a kind of market light switch. It rises in “risk-on” environments and declines in “risk-off” ones. That dynamic seems to be happening again now.
But there may also be another layer—an emerging inference of a safety net. Stocks have recovered most of what they lost after Liberation Day on April 2. However, the U.S. dollar hasn’t. It’s still down about 7%.
There’s much belief that the dollar will continue to weaken—and as I’ve said, that might be part of President Trump’s plan. A weaker dollar boosts U.S. manufacturing and exports. It can also improve corporate earnings, especially for multinationals, since most analysts do not model a weaker dollar into their spreadsheets. So, when companies beat earnings due to favourable exchange rates, it often surprises the market positively.
Some of crypto’s current rise may be due to the weak dollar, but more likely, it’s being driven by policy signals out of Washington: better regulations, possibly some deregulation, but overall, a clearer regulatory environment. That creates room for growth and more institutional confidence in the space.
For example, Kraken is cracking open the traditional equity vault by minting what they call “x-stocks” on the Solana blockchain. It’s turning Apple, Tesla, NVIDIA, and about 50 other U.S. equities into 24/7 programmable digital assets—like cocktail olives served in a DeFi martini glass.
For investors outside the U.S., this eliminates a significant amount of friction. No more jet-lagged limit orders or T+1 settlement hangovers. These tokenized shares settle in seconds. They can trade in micro-slivers and, in theory, go straight into an on-chain covered call vault—before the New York closing bell even rings.
With Backed Finance holding the underlying stocks and offering 1:1 redemption, the price tracking is expected to be tight—tight enough to impress even an options market maker. Think of it as Robinhood but with 24/7 access and complete transparency in custodial services.
For competitors, this is a tentacle tap on the shoulder. Remember Binance’s attempt to offer tokenized stocks back in 2021? Regulators quickly torpedoed that. Kraken is betting that their Swiss-based structure, MiCA [the EU’s Markets in Crypto-Assets Regulation] regulatory clarity, and Solana’s low-fee rails will keep this new Kraken ship watertight.
Neo-brokers that still close on holidays and weekends are starting to look very quaint. Traditional clearinghouses may now face the cringy task of explaining why they need a whole day to settle “paperwork” that a blockchain can handle in milliseconds.
If the experiment holds up, we could see a wave of tokenized options, structured notes, and maybe even proxy voting flood into the space—forcing Wall Street’s intermediaries to decide whether to sink, swim, or create a Kraken of their own.
Jacobsen: What about gold? We’ve seen much volatility there recently.
Schulman: Yes, and that’s not entirely surprising. Gold is considered a safe haven asset, but upon examining its historical behaviour, it has frequently exhibited periods of high volatility followed by troughs of low volatility.
Recently, it’s had a strong run of outperformance. However, in moments like this, some investors may liquidate their gold positions to raise cash or create liquidity. That’s exactly what gold is supposed to provide in times of uncertainty—something solid to convert when needed. And that can cause short-term selling pressure.
There are a few reasons for the shift. For investors, some of the fear that drove them into gold has started to dissipate. Now that tariff deals and truces are being codified, they may feel they can take on more risk. Additionally, as we’ve noted as gold rose over the past couple years, retail investors tended to pile into gold every time it made a new high. More money flowed in with each milestone. Part of the reason is psychological and media-driven. Each time gold hits a new record, it’s in the headlines. The news covers it, so consumers get a little reminder—”maybe I should buy gold.”
But when gold isn’t hitting new highs, those reminders fade. The media doesn’t cover gold consistently unless there’s a massive gain or a dramatic drop. Stocks, on the other hand, get coverage daily. Keeping an investment top of mind and in the press headlines makes a significant psychological difference for markets, and that matters!
Jacobsen: U.S. home sales went down in April. Why are people buying fewer homes?
Schulman: First, mortgage rates are still high. Second, consumer confidence has declined. And third, what I call the “wisdom of crowds.” From 2020 through most of 2024, I was saying home prices had a floor and strong fundamentals—limited supply, strong demand, and lots of home improvement investment. However, we’re now seeing more supply coming onto the market.
So when I talk about the wisdom of crowds, I mean that many people still want to buy a home, but they’re waiting—waiting for prices to drop as supply builds. Initial asking prices are starting to come down, which supports that theory.
Those three factors—rising yields and mortgage rates, declining consumer confidence, and increased supply—are combining to slow the housing market. Higher yields—like we were discussing earlier—with the yield curve pushing up, is not helping mortgage rates. Higher yields mean higher mortgage rates. It becomes more expensive to borrow. Combine that with falling confidence, and it discourages home purchases.
Jacobsen: The European Central Bank has highlighted that droughts could reduce Eurozone economic output by nearly 15%. That would affect manufacturing, construction, and agriculture. Banks currently hold around €1.3 trillion in loans to these high-risk sectors.
They’re using this data to push the importance of climate risk mitigation. Are these reasonable concerns? Are there other factors they may not be accounting for, or are they capturing everything relevant?
Schulman: To clarify, that 15% potential loss in economic output—that’s not projected for 2025, right?
Jacobsen: They’re talking about a potential cumulative impact over the next decade.
Schulman: So yes, it’s a forecasted risk, not an immediate one. However, it remains a stark reminder of how climate change can impact multiple industries. Agriculture, construction, and manufacturing are all deeply dependent on environmental stability.
And with €1.3 trillion in loans exposed, banks are right to sound the alarm. Whether it’s droughts or floods, climate-related shocks can jeopardize repayment, impact employment, and destabilize entire sectors. Mitigation and adaptation strategies are no longer optional—they’re core to financial risk planning.
And the climate is changing. You can debate whether it is due to pollution or natural variations in Earth’s cycle—as we’ve seen historically, with transitions from ice ages to warming periods long before humans existed. But regardless of the cause, the climate is changing. And yes, we (locally and globally) have to factor that into our calculations.
As investors, we have no choice. That’s one of the reasons I’ve stayed away from catastrophe bonds. When I speak with investors and modellers who specialize in catastrophe bonds, they’re often relying on historical data to predict future outcomes. However, historical data is no longer reliable.
Hurricanes are shifting. Flood zones are shifting. Wildfires are emerging in new locations with increased intensity. Look at Australia—massive wildfires one year, then massive floods the next. Europe’s seeing similar extremes. We have to prepare for it. Part of this will involve the destruction of land and, yes, weaker crop yields.
But, as a developed continent, Europe can pivot. And perhaps other parts of the world—previously less agriculturally viable—can step in. We’re already growing more crops in Iceland and northern Europe than ever before. Even vineyards are starting to spread north due to climate change.
So, yes, in a static world, the ECB is right: there is a strong chance of decreased economic output due to climate disruption. But the world isn’t static. Industries, banks, and lenders will adapt. And along the way, they may even discover more fruitful (pun intended), unexpected areas of investment.
Jacobsen: Let’s turn to fiscal stimulus in China. They’re facing sluggish GDP growth and deflation, and now they’re planning to increase their fiscal deficit to 4% of GDP this year. The government is also leveraging vast state-owned assets—valued at around 184 trillion yuan. I’m not great with conversions, but that’s a significant figure. This move is intended to maintain the company’s creditworthiness. Is it a wise move for 2025?
Schulman: Yes, it is. China’s primary policy concern is maintaining social order—keeping people employed, economically engaged, and generally content. Youth unemployment is already high, low birth rates are shifting the median age significantly higher, and they’re highly aware of the risks of social instability.
Increasing the fiscal deficit to 4% of GDP is a manageable and necessary move. They’re using the resources they have—state-owned assets—to inject capital into the economy, counteract deflation, and boost growth.
Deflation is particularly hazardous for a country like China, which relies heavily on consumer confidence, exports, and stable demand. Stimulating the economy in this way—especially when inflation isn’t the immediate concern—makes economic and political sense.
The United States has a relatively short history—we were founded in 1776. However, China has a rich history spanning thousands of years, marked by dynasties, rulers, revolutions, and regime changes—often stemming from internal unrest or local conquest.
That historical memory matters. China wants to keep its people happy and stable—and frankly, it can afford to, even if that means running a fiscal deficit or increasing the deficit. Not only can it afford to—it almost has to.
A careful expansion can be justified, but it should be paired with credible measures to stabilize local government finances, shore up the struggling property market—which probably needs another couple of years—and improve the transparency and efficiency of public spending.
Their debt is already high—about 25% of GDP and rising. Interestingly, Fitch downgraded China’s sovereign credit rating in April. It didn’t make as many headlines as Moody’s downgrade of the U.S., but it’s significant.
There’s also the deflation danger, which you mentioned earlier. China’s headline CPI has been negative for three consecutive months.
Jacobsen: When we talked about those trillions of yuan in state-owned assets—who is valuing that?
Schulman: The Chinese government is. So, the transparency around those valuations is questionable. There’s much value there, but the true worth is hard to assess.
Still, institutions like the IMF and other analysts argue that Beijing does have room to increase stimulus. I agree with that.
They should do more to support the property sector, which still accounts for over 5% of GDP.
Of course, market perception matters, too. A visibly widening deficit could trigger additional ratings pressure, just as we’ve seen with the U.S., or lead to higher borrowing costs.
But like Japan, China can fund a significant portion of its debt, especially if China is successful in transitioning the Yuan to be more of a reserve currency. And their extensive public assets provide a backstop. Official valuations of those assets put them well above GDP, so monetizing part of that asset base could offset some of the additional borrowing costs.
That said, China’s past stimulus efforts have had diminishing returns. Heavy infrastructure spending often led to inefficient allocation, crowding out private investment, and failing to boost domestic consumption. What would make this new round of stimulus a wise move?
Target areas with the highest multipliers: finish the stalled housing projects, fund household trade-ins and subsidies, and bolster unemployment benefits and pension schemes. The goal is to encourage consumers to spend, as China aims to expand its domestic market.
Right now, when most people think of China, they think of the Belt and Road Initiative, global exports, and trade surpluses with the U.S. and Europe. But that needs to shift. They need more domestic consumption of Chinese-made goods by Chinese consumers.
That translates into creating more employment opportunities, increasing wages, and helping more people move into the middle class—similar to what we’ve seen in Europe and the U.S. So yes, couple that stimulus with credible medium-term fiscal anchors, accelerate local government debt restructuring, and keep transitioning toward a complete balance sheet framework—one that tracks both assets and liabilities. That’s how they make this sustainable.
Raising the fiscal deficit to around 4% of GDP is defensible in the face of deflation and likely necessary. Beijing needs to spend more wisely, communicate a more straightforward debt narrative, accelerate local government reform, and likely allow its native tech industry to operate freer, with less government interference.
If you think back to the clampdown on Alibaba and the broader suppression of capitalist influence a few years ago, you can now see a trend reversing. The government is allowing more room for companies to self-manage, innovate, and profit from their ideas.
Jacobsen: Yes, Jack Ma is back in the public eye. He’s been giving interviews again—it took a while, but he’s gradually re-emerging.
Schulman: Jack Ma and the team behind BYD. It’s interesting. You have this handful—or more—of capitalists who challenged the state, and all seems to be fine now. But they do have different social priorities and operating assumptions.
Jacobsen: So, the G7 addressed nonmarket policies that undermine economic security, including discussions about adjusting the Russian oil price cap—which is currently set at $60 per barrel but may be reconsidered below $50. I don’t want to dive too far into the war-related commentary here—that’s part of a separate geopolitics series I’m working on.
They also focused on coordinating economic policies and made a firm commitment to combat nonmarket practices—many of which are associated with China. What do you make of this meeting and its emphasis on economic imbalances and potential sanctions?
Schulman: Yes, the G7 made direct references to nonmarket practices by China, particularly in sectors like steel, EV batteries, solar panels, and shipbuilding. These are sectors where China’s subsidies and industrial policy are seen to depress global prices and crowd out private competitors.
Some of these sectors, such as steel and shipbuilding, are strategic industries. Even electric vehicle (EV) batteries and solar panels are now considered strategic, given their critical roles in the green energy transition and the electrification of the automotive industry.
The emphasis from the G7 could signal a desire to act in concert rather than through unilateral tariffs or isolated protectionist policies. That would be a shift toward greater G7 alignment, possibly reducing friction over perceived U.S. protectionism within the group.
More sanctions on Russia were discussed. These measures are likely to involve stricter enforcement mechanisms, potential reductions in the oil price cap, and renewed efforts to limit Russia’s access to dual-use technologies.
There are already numerous sanctions in place against Russia. And as Moody’s was arguably late to the party in downgrading the U.S., the G7 finance ministers may also be late to the party in pushing additional sanctions on Russia. I know you didn’t want to dive too far into geopolitics, but from what it looks like, we may soon see a peace accord—or at least a ceasefire framework—between Russia and Ukraine.
For Russia to agree to any resolution, fiscal and economic sanctions will almost certainly need to be lifted. There is little incentive for Russia to end the war if sanctions remain in place. So if the G7 is only now—this late in the game—talking about more sanctions, they may be behind the curve.
Those are my thoughts on the China and Russia angles, without having studied them in detail. On a different note, I’ve been receiving many questions about investment correlation lately. People often assume stocks and bonds are uncorrelated, but sometimes they do move in tandem. From an investment standpoint, numerous options are available—but the world is becoming increasingly bifurcated.
It reminds me of the old VHS versus VideoDisc format wars. Today, we see this split between the U.S. and China: two technological ecosystems, two regulatory regimes, and two diverging economic strategies.
So, if you want to diversify your investments, you can either make a strong directional bet on one ecosystem—or you have to engage with both. As an analogy, you may want to participate in both the Apple and Android ecosystems. If you went all in on one, you might still do fine. But if proper diversification is the goal, you want to consider and juxtapose exposure to both.
The same goes for AI. If you want to diversify AI investments, you cannot just bet on Google’s Gemini—you need exposure to other large language models as well.
Globally, you have to think about both the Chinese ecosystem and the U.S. ecosystem and consider how to balance your investment strategies across both. That’s how you hedge for the zigs and zags of a complex, volatile global economy.
Jacobsen: Thank you for your time and insights, Michael.
Schulman: Always a pleasure.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/06
Lorena Galliot is a French-Venezuelan-American journalist and senior producer at Lost Women of Science. They discussed Evangelina Rodríguez Perozo, the Dominican Republic’s first female doctor. Rodríguez overcame poverty, trained in Paris, and pioneered maternal health and public health initiatives, including free milk distribution. Despite persecution under Rafael Trujillo’s dictatorship, her legacy endured through local memory and later historical recovery. Her mental health deteriorated under political repression, leading to a tragic end. Today, slowly growing recognition honours her contributions, with hospitals, streets, and a postage stamp commemorating her, though much of her story remains rediscovered.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we heard from Lorena Galliot. She is a French-Venezuelan-American journalist, producer, and editor known for her audio storytelling and documentary filmmaking work. She is a senior producer at the Lost Women of Science podcast, producing notable series such as The Extraordinary Life and Tragic Death of Evangelina Rodríguez Perozo, highlighting the Dominican Republic’s first female doctor. Before joining Lost Women of Science, Galliot worked with Adonde Media, creating multilingual audio stories in French, Spanish, and English. Projects she has worked on have aired on platforms like Netflix, ABC News, National Geographic, and CNN Films. Her written work has been published in outlets such as the Christian Science Monitor, Scientific American, Grist, The Daily Climate, and The New York Times.
Her multicultural heritage and trilingual abilities enrich her narratives, bringing depth and authenticity to the stories she tells.
Now, big picture: How many stories do we have of the “first doctors” of [fill in the blank]? Are they well documented? Do we know?
Lorena Galliot: That’s a good question. I do not know a precise number, especially not for women doctors. The first doctors anywhere in history are probably too numerous to document, particularly if you include male doctors. However, regarding women, it is a much more recent development on that scale. The first women to break into the field—those can often be documented.
We were interested in a place like the Dominican Republicbut because it represented an area where health and medicine were not yet highly developed. Then A woman from a difficult, impoverished background came forward and helped push the field forward in her country. She was the first female doctor and was highly innovative and pioneering for her time.
Jacobsen: Regarding the training and methodology used to educate medical students, how different is what we now consider medicine compared to then?
Galliot: Well, medical schools did exist at the time. Evangelina Rodríguez was born in the late 1800s and graduated from medical school in 1911. At that time, there was only one medical school in Santo Domingo, and it was not nearly as developed or thorough as the medical schools we see today, whether in her region, the U.S., or Canada. The best-developed medical schools were primarily located in Europe and North America.
After studying in her own country, Evangelina felt there was still much more to learn. She aspired to follow in the footsteps of other Latin American doctors who trained in Europe, specifically in Paris. It remained her goal to complete her training there and become a “real doctor.”
Jacobsen: Because medicine is one of those weird fields that changes quite drastically, and its applicability is almost immediate, too, right?
Galliot: Well, in her case, it took her eight years to complete her curriculum, which is standard for a medical student today going through the whole process until the end of the residency. But it was considered long at the time. It makes me realize I do not know specifically what the standard would have been—whether it would have been five or six years—but eight years was considered a lengthy period because, during her entire time studying, she was also working. She had to work to support herself.
Jacobsen: When it comes to doing fieldwork as a storyteller, when you visit sites and start tracking this history on the ground, what do you notice about the smells of the area, the sights, how people conduct themselves—things that give you some insight into how social interactions might have been at that time?
Galliot: You mean, like, going into the field in Paris? For this story, I did not—though I have lived in Paris and am very familiar with the city. However, for this story, we worked with a collaborator in the Dominican Republic who helped us with local reporting in Santo Domingo.
Jacobsen: Oh, that’s fair. Now, in terms of her time studying in Paris, what did she bring insights into medical practice and perspectives on women’s health upon returning to the Dominican Republic?
Galliot: It has changed her in ways that were, I think, unexpected. The main thing that is documented—and I will say, one of the challenges in reporting the story of Evangelina is that not much is documented. There are a couple of biographies written, quite a long time after her death. She left some correspondence, but only a limited amount survived. However, she wrote one book before travelling, which still exists, and we were able to track it down in a digital version from the national archives in Santo Domingo. It’s called Granos de Polen.
She wrote the book before her trip to Paris. It’s a strange mix of some medical philosophies, a treatise to improve society, and advice to women on their health. She was young when she wrote it. Initially, her primary motivation for writing the book was to raise funds to travel to Paris. One thing that comes out is that she was heavily influenced by her Catholic upbringing and very much the Catholic religious structure of the Dominican Republic.
It was and still is a predominantly Catholic country. Evangelina viewed sex outside of marriage as something negative, and she perceived sex work—prostitution—as something to be condemned. Prostitutes were seen as a threat to public health, spreading venereal diseases.
Somehow, during her time in Paris —but something switched. She came back from Paris and became pretty vocal about the opposite: about sex workers being victimized, about women needing to be treated and helped, and about offering medical treatment to them.
It was still approached through a public health lens—specifically concerning venereal diseases—but instead of punishing sex workers, she advocated for care. She began visiting brothels, offering medical treatment for free, and spreading awareness about contraception, particularly the use of condoms.
So, it was a central switch and very radical for her time. We do not know precisely what happened in Paris, but it changed her dramatically.
Jacobsen: What are reasonable speculations as to the reason? What was going on in Parisian culture at that time?
Galliot: We tried to dig into this. What we do know is that brothels in Paris were legal and regulated. Doctors regularly visited brothels and conducted examinations of sex workers.
That being said, while brothels were regulated, the French approach was still quite punitive. Workers were subjected to mandatory medical examinations, and the system was still harsh toward them overall.
I wish I knew more about what exactly shifted Evangelina’s ideological perspective—and I can only speculate because there is no definitive source to confirm. That remains a mystery.
Jacobsen: In her time between Paris and Santo Domingo, was there also a noticeable cultural change in the Dominican Republic? In other words, did society shift to an even more judgmental and punitive culture around sex workers and similar issues, or did it move in a more liberal direction, as Paris had to some extent?
Galliot: When she returned—no. Before anything became more liberal—the society in the Dominican Republic remained both heavily Catholic and very patriarchal.
In fact, within a decade of Evangelina’s return from Paris, the Dominican Republic fell into a lenthy period of dictatorship. So, both in terms of fundamental civil liberties and women’s roles in society, the country stayed deeply conservative, with the Catholic Church maintaining a strong influence until at least the 1960s.
Jacobsen: This is a tricky question: how long did it take before a second woman medical doctor in the Dominican Republic?
Galliot: Yeah, not that long. While Evangelina was still in Paris, another Dominican graduate had already made a similar trip, following in her footsteps. So we will talk within a couple of years. She was the first, but it did open doors. Doors were beginning to open.
Jacobsen: That leads to a natural question based on the prior question. Did this woman who went to Paris for medical school and came back—if she did come back—also similarly change her attitudes and opinions?
Galliot: No. It is a good question, but I do not know. I wish I could say.
What I will say, though, is that under the dictatorship that began in the 1930s, under Commander Rafael Trujillo—you might be getting to this later, so I do not want to delve too far ahead—he picked and chose the voices he wanted to elevate and reward, based on loyalty to him and his party but also the colour of skin. He had a policy of trying to “whiten” Dominican society.
When it came to intellectuals and public figures, he elevated mostly white Dominicans and marginalized Afro-Dominican intellectuals, which was the community Evangelina belonged to. She was Afro-Dominican.
In fact, under Trujillo’s regime, the National Registry of Doctors of the Dominican Republic—where Evangelina had been listed as the first woman doctor—temporarily erased her name. Another woman from a prominent white family who supported Trujillo was elevated in her place. During Trujillo’s time, There was an effort to erase her from the historical record. She was almost completely erased.
Only much later, after Trujillo was assassinated in 1961 was Evangelina’s rightful place and role reinstated.
Jacobsen: Now, for size and art, as well as for periods of history that were not exactly well-to-do by modern standards—Evangelina opened a maternity clinic and a free milk distribution program.
Milk has carbohydrates, protein, and calcium—it is a reasonably nutrient-dense sustenance source, particularly for impoverished societies. Why did she focus on a maternity clinic and free milk distribution, and how did those initiatives impact impoverished communities?
Galliot: Right. Well, I will start with the free milk. That was directly inspired by something she observed in Paris.
There was a longstanding public health program called goutte de lait—the “drop of milk”—to combat malnutrition in poor children and families. It distributed free milk to inject nutrition—calories, protein, calcium, and everything you just named—particularly for infants.
Breastfeeding was still encouraged and promoted, but milk distribution was additional support, with the understanding that in highly impoverished families, where women tended to have many children, breastfeeding alone might not be sufficient. Supplementation was necessary.
Evangelina saw the benefits of this approach and essentially replicated it, taking the same idea and even the same name. She called it La Gota de Leche in the Dominican Republic and sought to implement the same nutritional program because she saw the immediate health benefits.
In terms of the maternity clinic, it is interesting. It also boils down to Evangelina’s— I find her psychology, or at least what I wonder about it, very interesting. She was abandoned at birth by both her mother and her father because they came from impoverished backgrounds. Her mother was essentially a servant in a household. Her father was a soldier in the army at the time, and it was an illegitimate birth.
They were not a couple. He was not around, and her mother could not care for her, so she was abandoned. Evangelina experienced firsthand the dire consequences when a pregnancy resulted in a child who was unplanned, unwanted and brought into an environment without the resources to care for her.
She ended up being raised by her paternal grandmother, but in extremely humble circumstances—selling gofio , a traditional Dominican sweet, in the street.
So, coming from that background—fast-forward to her teenage years—one of the most significant transformative moments in Evangelina’s story is that she was introduced to a woman named Anacaona Moscoso. Anacaona was also Afro-Dominican but came from a far wealthier background. She had been one of the first students at one of the early women’s secondary schools in Santo Domingo—a normalized school.
These schools were part of a mission to provide secular education for women. They were essentially teacher training institutes but were more broadly aimed at expanding women’s educational opportunities.
Anacaona Moscoso was creating a women’s institute in San Pedro de Macorís, the town where Evangelina lived, a sugar-producing town east of the Dominican Republic. She heard about Evangelina, a very humble but unusually bright and intelligent girl who might be a promising candidate for her school.
Anacaona met Evangelina, immediately recognized her potential, and took her under her wing. She arranged for Evangelina to work teaching night literacy classes to workers so she could earn money to pay her school tuition—something she otherwise could not have afforded.
This moment—the opportunity—completely changed the trajectory of Evangelina’s life. Anacaona became a mentor, friend, and mother figure to her.
Now, coming back to your question: before Evangelina became a doctor—when she was already aspiring to study medicine and, I think, had already started her medical journey—Anacaona became pregnant with her third child. She was warned that it would be risky to carry another pregnancy, that it could bring serious complications. But she had no access to means of preventing it, and she died following childbirth.
Again and again, Evangelina witnessed firsthand the tragic consequences when women could not choose whether or not to become pregnant—and when maternal care was lacking or inadequate.
That experience—the personal loss of her mentor and the broader social realities—pushed her not just to become a doctor but to specialize specifically in maternal care and open a maternity clinic.
Jacobsen: It sounds like many of these events were also in the backdrop of her expansion as a person. She experienced these things happening around her, and, as people do, they continued with their lives despite tragedies.
The period of being away from home gave time for those experiences to gestate and reflect, ultimately changing her mind. Being away provided contrast. Those moments may have served as inflection points during reflection rather than being seen simply as isolated incidents—like losing family members on the Titanic, but the realization and meaning come later.
I am just being mindful of time—we will be kicked off in about four minutes.
Jacobsen: What kind of opposition did she face to getting maternal health support and the milk program going? Was there resistance from the people who were supposed to benefit from it?
Galliot: It was very, very well received. The response was extremely positive and welcoming, and she was applauded for her efforts.
Officials in her town—San Pedro de Macorís, where she returned to work—had provided her with financial support for her trip to Paris. They expected her to return and develop health services, especially for poor people. So, this kind of initiative was supported.
However, her more controversial efforts—like distributing condoms to married women and visiting prostitutes and sex workers in brothels—were not received as warmly. Those initiatives garnered a much more mixed response.
Jacobsen: How did Rafael Trujillo persecute her through the dictatorship? How much of a threat was she seen as, especially given her work on contraception provision and related initiatives?
Galliot: Shee was not on Trujillo’s radar at all. She was operating primarily in the Eastern Provinces, focusing on local work, and at the beginning of his regime, that was not something Trujillo was overly concerned about.
However, Trujillo became increasingly obsessed with fostering a cult of personality around himself. He demanded extreme loyalty, and joining his party was mandatory. If you did not enter, you were automatically blocked.
After a few years in power—around the late 1930s—he became aware of Evangelina, presumably after encountering her at a medical conference where they crossed paths. She was present, and he noticed her: an Afro-Dominican woman doctor who already did not place her in his good graces, operating independently and without showing the required reverence to him.
Trujillo was not known for supporting women’s roles outside the domestic sphere, and he certainly did not favour independent-minded, outspoken figures, especially women of African descent. So, at that point, she became more of a target.
She had not joined the party. Whenever she received any kind of honour, she never thanked or acknowledged Trujillo or publicly bolstered him.
At the time, there was this theatricality where people were expected to credit Trujillo for anything positive. For example, if new infrastructure was built, people were expected to say something like, “Thanks to the magnificence of our Generalísimo Trujillo…”
Evangelina never participated in that. She always refused to engage in that kind of obsequiousness—am I saying that right? I am not sure—but she refused.
Not only that, but she was not shy about criticizing him, whether with her patients, in private conversations, or public settings, even as people around her became increasingly nervous and afraid to speak out as his grip on society tightened.
At some point—perhaps at that 1933 conference where they were both present or possibly later—he became aware that she was not behaving as she “should” in his eyes. She came into his crosshairs, and her persecution began.
Jacobsen: How severe was the persecution?
Galliot: Extremely severe. It started with her losing what she had spent so long building. In particular, her maternity clinic in San Pedro de Macorís was shut down.
Beyond that, her name was stripped from the National Registry of Doctors. Two years after the 1933 conference—where she had received an award but failed to mention or thank Trujillo in her acceptance speech—she tried to attend another medical conference organized in Santo Domingo. She had participated in such conferences for years, but this time, she was denied entry.
She was increasingly and systematically sidelined. Patients—particularly wealthier ones who could afford other providers—also began to avoid her because being associated with her became dangerous by association.
Biographers believe that Evangelina may have had underlying mental health vulnerabilities, though there is no formal diagnosis. These cascading losses—the shuttering of her clinic, the erasure from public records, and the social isolation—triggered a mental health crisis.
Symptoms that had not previously been visible now manifested, and she began experiencing hallucinations.
Jacobsen: What was she hallucinating?
Galliot: She would hallucinate that thugs were persecuting her—chasing her, threatening her. It was very much in keeping with the climate of fear and persecution at the time.
Coming back from that conference, Evangelina was ranting and raving about thugs who had chased her and were trying to beat her up. However, there was no evidence that this happened—she seemed to be imagining these threats. She gradually entered phases where she would lose touch with reality.
Jacobsen: Is this a common phenomenon among people—particularly capable— under this kind of intense duress and persecution?
Galliot: I certainly do not think she is the only case. And we are talking about the 1930s—a time when mental health treatment was very rudimentary, and fear was an overwhelming force in many regimes.
Of course, some are cut off under fear, and others are sent into a spiral. There is a historical precedent. But in her particular context, there is an added weight of political persecution, gender discrimination, and racial marginalization.
Since her mental health crisis was never formally diagnosed, we have to be cautious. One of her biographers speculated that she exhibited symptoms consistent with schizophrenia, but again, I hesitated to put a medical label without definitive evidence.
That said, the case of John Nash is often cited—a brilliant mind plagued by schizophrenia. You can see some parallels between his experiences and what Evangelina endured, especially her hallucinations.
Jacobsen: In terms of her hallucinations at the end of her life, what are the characteristics we know about them? And how did everything fully unravel near the end?
Galliot: The end of her life was truly tragic. Everything unravelled once she lost her medical practice.
Earlier, when she was in her fiftes, adopted a little girl named Selisette. The baby’s mother had died during childbirth. Evangelina had tried to save the mother but had been unable to. She adopted the orphaned girl, loved her deeply, and raised her alone.
By all accounts, Evangelina adored children and did everything in her power to care for them. She treated entire families—mothers, fathers, and children—with incredible compassion.
One of her biographers was a child in her practice. He remembered her as a warm, deeply caring pediatrician. Later in life, realizing how she had disappeared from historical records, he dedicated himself to digging up everything he could about the woman who had once been his doctor—and he wrote the first major biography of her.
However, when Evangelina’s mental health deteriorated further, the situation worsened.
The father of the adopted girl—who had never been absent but had not been able to care for her financially—was warned about Evangelina’s declining stability. He ultimately took Selisette away from her, and . That loss devastated Evangelina.
By that point, the people closest to her had all died. Her mentor and friend, Anacaona Moscoso, had passed away. Her grandmother—the woman who raised her—had long since died. Evangelina was increasingly alone.
She had always been so selfless, described both positively and negatively, that she never kept much for herself. Whatever she earned, she gave away or spent in service of others.
When everything else fell apart—her clinic, her professional standing, her adopted daughter, her support network—there was almost nothing left holding her up.
She always used whatever money she had for her work and gave generously to others. So, she eventually found herself alone, persecuted by the government, and pretty much penniless.
At one point, arrangements were made for her to live with a distant half-brother she barely knew in a remote village in the southeast.
So, Evangelina was sent to live in this very rural area. According to oral histories—because there are no written records about this period—she was remembered as a woman who began wandering the countryside, carrying a basket of flowers and muttering nonsensically.
She went from being the first woman doctor in the Dominican Republic, a pioneer who had opened a maternity clinic and made significant contributions to her community, to becoming a beggar on the streets.
Jacobsen: A hallucinating beggar on the streets.
Galliot: Exactly—a hallucinating beggar on the streets.
People would give her food, and she would often pass that food on to others, barely eating herself. It seemed she was always looking for someone more destitute than herself to help.
These stories were preserved through oral history, passed down generation after generation. Dominican families remembered her not from official records but as a kind of wandering figure—a memory, almost a folktale.
Sadly, after about a decade of this “in-between” period—during which she was no longer practicing medicine and instead wandering from town to town, sometimes walking for days at a time—she reemerged in the official records.
In 1946 , there was a major sugar workers’ strike against Trujillo’s regime. The crackdown that followed was brutal: strike leaders were arrested, and some were even hanged in public.
During the government’s witch hunt for scapegoats, someone at some point pointed a finger at Evangelina—the former doctor who had long been critical of Trujillo.
She was swept up and arrested, even though she was harmless by then.
She spent several days in a prison in San Pedro. According to all accounts, she was tortured and beaten during her imprisonment.
She was eventually released—probably because it was evident she was already broken, both mentally and physically.
Soon after, Evangelina Rodríguez Perozo died. She was found dead on the street.
The cause of death listed on her death certificate is officially recorded as starvation. In her final days, she was not feeding herself enough.
Jacobsen: Usually, famous people leave some kind of record behind—quotes, writings, reflections. What are some of your favourite quotes that you found from her?
Galliot: There is one, though it is not originally hers, that she reportedly repeated often to her patients, particularly her female patients and expectant mothers.
There is a saying in the Dominican Republic: “Every baby is born with a loaf of bread under their arm.” It is meant to be comforting—as if to say, “Do not worry, the child will bring prosperity.”
But Evangelina would tell her patients: “You know that saying? It is not true. It has never been true.”
She used it as a counterexample, a warning. She was one of the early proponents of family planning—the idea that pregnancies should be spaced and planned—at a time when that was a radical notion.
Jacobsen: Is there a redemptive arc after her death? Has anyone carried on her work? Are there institutes named after her?
Galliot: Slowly but surely, yes.
The end of her life was so tragic and heartbreaking that, for a long time, her story was overlooked. She died in the 1960s, and her first biography was not published until 1980—twenty years later. During those two decades, she was almost entirely forgotten.
Since then, however, there have been genuine efforts to honour her legacy.
A network of family planning clinics—similar in spirit to Planned Parenthood in the Dominican Republic—named one of their early clinics after her. Hospitals in Santo Domingo have named maternity wards after her. There is now a street in her hometown bearing her name.
In 1988, a postage stamp was issued featuring the only surviving photograph of her—an image of Evangelina as a young woman, looking polished, with neatly styled hair and a string of pearls.
Recently, a few plays inspired by her life have been staged at festivals in the Dominican Republic.
Her story is entering the public consciousness, though it is still not as widely known as one might expect for a pioneering woman doctor.
One thing we realized during this project—and this is the whole mission of the Lost Women of Science podcast—is that even in her home country, she was not a household name.
For example, our series host, Laura Gómez—a Dominican actress and podcaster you might recognize from Orange is the New Black—had never heard of her. When we approached her about the project, Laura said, “Now that you are bringing her up, and now that I see everything you have uncovered, I cannot believe I had never heard of her.” Neither had many of her friends.
So Evangelina Rodríguez Perozo’s story is still in the process of being reclaimed and celebrated.
It is still slow, but yes, little by little.
Jacobsen: I see assumptions like that as a spinoff or derivative of the just-world theory—or the just-world hypothesis.
The idea that the world is just—that if someone achieves something noble, fair, and reasonable, it will automatically be recognized and secure its place in history. But many of those stories must be rediscovered through deliberate and conscious effort. Hers appears to be one of them.
Galliot: Absolutely. One of the historians we interviewed for this series pointed out that the people of her hometown—San Pedro de Macorís—helped prevent her story from disappearing completely.
This was where she had practiced medicine for most of her life—the city that initially helped fund her trip to Paris. They held onto her memory. The biographer who wrote her first biography was from there.
Thanks to the dedication of a relatively small number of people, her place in history began to be reaffirmed slowly.
Jacobsen: Lorena, thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate your expertise, and it was nice to meet you.
Galliot: It was lovely meeting you, too. Thank you so much for your interest and questions.
Jacobsen: Thank you very much. Have a great rest of your day.
Galliot: Cheers. Bye.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/05
Tanya Grambower is the founder and managing director of Literacy for Boys and Literacy for Kids, an innovative online program designed to improve literacy skills among children. With over 20 years of teaching experience in Australian and international schools, she holds a Bachelor of Education and previously ran a successful tutoring business, One Step Ahead Tutoring. Grambower presented at Oxford’s 2025 World Literacy Summit, discussing declining global literacy rates, AI in education, and prison literacy initiatives. Drawing from her 20+ years in education, she emphasized building reading confidence in boys, leveraging AI as a critical thinking tool, and encouraging adult literacy modelling. Her work highlights the urgent need for collaborative solutions to improve literacy across generations and socio-economic backgrounds.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re going to be talking about the World Literacy Summit 2025, held at the University of Oxford. This biennial event, which brings together a wide range of stakeholders in global education and literacy, is one of the largest gatherings of international literacy specialists.
This year, over 800 delegates from 85 countries are attending, including education ministers, representatives from Penguin Books, policy advisors, and internationally recognized authors.
Some of the key focus areas of the summit include:
- The future of AI and EdTech in U.S. and global education
- New data on declining literacy rates, which is sparking important conversations
- Education policy in prison systems, including access to books and literacy programs for incarcerated individuals
- Innovative tools for learning disabilities, many of which integrate AI to support differentiated learning
So, let’s begin the discussion. First, how did you become involved with the World Literacy Summit?
Tanya Grambower: About 18 months ago, I was invited to join the World Literacy Task Force, which was an excellent opportunity to collaborate with experts worldwide. Later, I was asked to submit a research paper for the 2025 summit. After submitting it, my paper went through a review process, and I was fortunate to be selected as one of the presenters. Contributing to this important global dialogue on literacy has been an honour.
Jacobsen: Now, turning to AI and education, this is a hot topic. Many people talk about AI as if it is a single tool, but it is a broad set of technologies. At its core, it involves algorithms, data processing, and the computational power that drives them. When applied to education, what are the opportunities and risks?
Grambower: It is essential to engage with AI thoughtfully. There are exciting ways to use AI in the classroom, especially with secondary school students, who typically have more critical thinking experience.
An example is a student might input a short paragraph into an AI tool and ask it to suggest improvements. The student then reviews the AI’s output in a separate document, noting what was changed, what improved, and what may have been lost. This process helps them evaluate and edit the output, seeing that AI is not flawless.
For instance, a prompt like “add examples of personification to this passage” might yield a new version that unintentionally removes a meaningful metaphor. That creates a learning moment—the student must reflect on whether the AI’s suggestion improved the writing.
This type of active engagement works well when students record and annotate AI-generated output, which builds digital literacy and writing skills. They are learning to critique, not just consume.
At the same time, many schools are implementing AI-detection tools to help ensure academic integrity and guide the use of generative tools.
Jacobsen: Finally, are there ways AI could strengthen students’ attention to language precision and grammar, even if it does not encourage long-form reading?
Grambower: Yes. Even when students are not doing extended reading, AI can promote precision in language, grammar awareness, and word choice refinement, especially when students are encouraged to interrogate the AI’s suggestions rather than rely on them wholesale. The key is teaching students how to use AI as a collaborator, not a crutch.
It is a suitable method for students—it teaches them to be concise, which is an important skill. If you want AI to edit or create something for you, your language must be straightforward and economical. That’s a language skill in itself—knowing how to input something into an AI system in a way that gets meaningful results.
So, using AI for student writing can be valid, especially when you ask them to annotate, reflect on their requests, and think about the scope and clarity of their instructions. You can add learning objectives, refer to assessment criteria, oreven borrow phrasing from rubrics—there’s value in asking students to tighten their language and be more purposeful.
Jacobsen: Do U.S. education systems have unique features that lend them to greater AI adoption than other countries?
Grambower: I’m probably steering away from a full AI integration because our program covers primary and secondary students. So, the way we’re using or considering AI would be more of a teacher-led writing task. A teacher might use one of our topics as a springboard for a writing assignment where AI could be incorporated into the editing or brainstorming process.
Jacobsen: What was your biggest takeaway from this particular summit?
Grambower: One major takeaway is the downward trend in global literacy rates, even in high-income countries and wealthy U.S. states. That was alarming. On a personal note, I was thrilled that my session was complete. That told me that boys’ literacy is not just a local issue; it’s a global concern. I didn’t even have time to answer everyone’s questions, which reaffirmed that this topic resonates deeply, even in countries under-resourced regarding books or technology. They’re still struggling to engage boys in literacy.
What stood out is that even countries like Canada, the U.S., and Australia—with relatively high levels of access—are still seeing boys lag behind girls in literacy outcomes. That was one strong takeaway for me.
Another highlight was one of the keynote speakers, Sheriff Chris Swanson, and the work he does in prisons. He emphasizes the value of education and literacy, particularly for young men. I found that connection incredibly compelling. I loved his graduation initiative—celebrating every inmate who completes a credential, whether it’s a chef’s certificate, a welding diploma, or a law degree. Everyone’s achievement is honoured.
That moved me because, as you mentioned, some of these young people come from literacy-poor homes, where even the parents may be functionally illiterate. They start at a disadvantage. To have someone finally recognize their achievement—it could be the first time anyone has acknowledged them for something they’ve accomplished—was incredibly heartwarming.
Jacobsen: What was the most striking example of how far behind boys can fall compared to girls at equivalent grade levels?
Grambower: There wasn’t a large dataset presented at the summit to show exact figures, but many attendees showcased practical examples—whether that was a literacy product, a reading program, a particular book, or a strategy they’ve used to improve boys’ outcomes.
One standout example was a program focused on vocabulary building, which showed promise in closing the gap. People are experimenting and seeing what works, and I think those examples are important because they bring the issue to life, even when the statistical data is limited.
You have tier one, tier two, and tier three vocabulary categories. Tier one consists of basic, everyday words. But if you can strengthen students’ tier two vocabulary, which includes more nuanced and academic words, by giving them lots of exposure and examples, that can significantly increase their reading age.
It was fascinating to see that something as seemingly simple as building a vocabulary network—focusing on those tier two words—is showing measurable success.
Jacobsen: Now, on the topic of prisons, not every prison has a decent library. But grassroots programs are being built. I’ve interviewed at least one or two organizers who ask incarcerated individuals directly: What books do you want?
Then, based on those requests, they source the books. That feedback loop—getting input directly from the prison population—means they’re invested in the genres and types of texts they receive. Since the majority of prisoners are men, and that group often enters the prison system with lower literacy levels compared to women, the impact can be significant.
So you’re talking about reaching a population that’s statistically more likely to have started at a lower literacy baseline, and giving them meaningful tools to improve. That is both critical and impressive. What are you noticing—or what has been reported—about prisons, literacy, and these types of initiatives?
Grambower: Scott, one of the most effective strategies is to leverage the leadership potential inside prisons. What I mean by that is that some inmates are natural leaders. Their influence among peers cannot be underestimated.
So, how do we channel those leaders into becoming literacy champions? How do we get them to see the value in education? That’s a key part of the puzzle. And I see this even in our boys’ literacy program. In any classroom—or even in sports—you’ll always see the natural leaders: captains and charismatic figures. The question is: how do you get them to value literacy?
If they do, they can create a strong ripple effect. That behaviour—reading and valuing education—can spread peer to peer, especially in structured settings like prison or school. I think it ties into reading behaviours in correctional settings. Teachers listening to this will know exactly what I mean—those classroom leaders who can influence the tone of the entire group. You want to equip them to lead their peers in the right direction, not the wrong one.
Jacobsen: What innovative tools or strategies have you seen proposed—or already working—for improving boys’ literacy?
Grambower: I’m focused on engagement and relevance. That’s where I believe we can make the most significant difference.
We’ve found success using well-written texts that align with boys’ interests. If a boy is disengaged with reading, it’s often linked to low confidence. He may approach a text with dread or apathy. But literacy is a life skill—whether they become a tradesperson, a contractor, or pursue further education, they must read and understand complex documents like contracts.
So, our strategy is to connect students with texts that matter to them and offer choice. That personal connection can change everything. Of course, none of this works without quality teaching—that goes without saying. However, matching content to interest is foundational in turning disengaged students into confident readers.
Jacobsen: What countries are doing well at achieving gender parity in reading and writing among youth?
Grambower: I couldn’t speak in depth about all countries, but Finland is often cited as a strong example. Their education system consistently performs well in PISA rankings, and they’ve done a lot to ensure literacy parity between boys and girls.
Finland seems to do well in many areas, and I would probably hold them up as an example. I think it ultimately comes down to passionate teachers and committed educators. Right now, we’re facing a global crisis of teacher burnout. Excellent, experienced teachers are leaving the profession, and that is a concern shared across many countries.
Teachers of my generation, who have decades of expertise, could powerfully mentor newer teachers. I would love to see more structured mentoring programs. That kind of guidance could help with teacher retention and reinforce the value of professional experience in education. Of course, how that’s implemented will vary country by country, but I believe there are incredible teachers worldwide, many of whom are deeply passionate about literacy.
The summit truly showcased that. There was an energetic atmosphere—everyone was excited to connect, collaborate, and share ideas. After my presentation, it was lovely to receive applause and have people come up to speak with me, share their thoughts, and discuss their takeaways. There was much positivity and momentum around creating real change in global literacy. Even though literacy rates are declining in many regions, countless organizations and individuals are excited and committed to reversing that trend.
Jacobsen: What kinds of education policies work, not just in increasing literacy rates, but for the right reasons? Are youthinking more about targeted literacy programs or broader policy reforms?
Grambower: I think broad policies matter. Sometimes, reforms are introduced and don’t work or are only minimally effective. However, a new approach is occasionally phased in, and it genuinely improves educational outcomes in literacy, regardless of a student’s background or specific needs.
What works? What doesn’t? One major challenge is that educators are constantly under pressure to cover an expansive curriculum. Time is tight, and the demands of standardized assessment drain energy and creativity, which can wear teachers down.
I’d love to see reduced administrative burdens so teachers can focus on what matters—making math fun, literacy engaging, and history exciting. That takes energy and imagination, and right now, teachers are overextended. We also see increased social issues entering the classroom, further complicating things.
And I want to emphasize the role of parents. They need to step up more to support their children’s literacy development. We see a sharp drop-off in reading engagement as children grow older.
About 99% of kindergarten students enjoy reading—those are your little ones, aged four or five. But by fourth grade, around age eight or nine, that number drops to about 75%. Then, by eighth grade, which includes students around 12 or 13 years old, it plummets to roughly 25%.
That’s a staggering decline. It highlights the need for strong school-based programs and home—based reinforcement to maintain a culture of reading and curiosity as children grow up.
Jacobsen: After that point, interest in reading seems to drop off. How do we create an environment among parents, schools, and teachers that helps maintain or grow that interest? Why does it decline so sharply after Grade 4?
Grambower: Home reading support drops off dramatically around that stage. Parents often believe that by Grade 4—when a child is around nine or ten years old—they can read independently, so there’s no longer a need to check in on their reading habits.
That’s a critical misstep. Literacy development needs continued support and reinforcement at home; when that falls away, the child’s connection to reading weakens.
At the same time, in Grades 5 and 6, teachers face a greater content load. They’re required to cover more subjects and meet growing curriculum demands. As a result, there’s often less time for in-class reading, less focus on shared novels, and less use of classroom libraries.
We’re also seeing a significant decline in school librarian staffing, which is a huge loss. A qualified school librarian is one of the most powerful literacy resources a school can have, no matter the country.
Many schools began replacing their libraries or librarians with IT centers about ten or fifteen years ago. So instead of a student browsing shelves with a librarian, we shifted to computer labs. That change, while well-intended, often meant less browsing time, fewer conversations about books, and the loss of the librarian’s guidance, like, “I saw you borrowed this book last time, you might like this author next.”
The impact of a skilled, passionate librarian can be transformative in building a lifelong positive relationship with reading.
Jacobsen: What was a memorable moment for you at the summit—or several?
Grambower: One of the most memorable moments was introducing Jelly Roll to the stage. It’s a bit of a funny story—initially, I was asked to moderate a panel with students with learning obstacles. They wanted me to lead a discussion with them about their goals in entering education, and I was excited about it. It was something new, and the summit was trialling.
That panel didn’t end up happening, but instead, I was asked to introduce Sheriff Chris Swanson, who then interviewed Jelly Roll on stage. It was unexpected, and I was in the right place at the right time. Being able to introduce that key event was something I’ll never forget.
Another big highlight was the turnout for my session on boys’ literacy. The room was packed, and people were genuinely eager to learn. I was heartened by the earnestness of attendees who wanted practical solutions, ideas, and tips for engaging boys in literacy.
Those moments—personal and professional—were strong reminders that we’re on the right path. We need to get boys engaged with literacy early, and if we do, we can prevent some from taking the pathway that ends in prison. Low literacy is often one of the key barriers that lead young men into the justice system. Education can be a preventive tool.
Jacobsen: With all the tools available today to help children with learning disabilities, shouldn’t we be better positioned to help them help themselves?
Grambower: Technically, yes. The tools are there. The evidence is there. But the challenge is implementation. It’s not just about having the right software or assistive technology—it’s about building a positive relationship between the child and the text.
For children with dyslexia, for example, text often feels like an obstacle, not an opportunity. If every experience they’vehad with a passage of text has been frustrating, they naturally develop negative associations with reading.
So yes, we have excellent tools. But what’s also required is confidence-building. We need someone in their corner—a teacher, tutor, or parent—who’s passionate, patient, and committed to helping them succeed. Someone who champions their effort, not just the outcome. That makes the real difference: effective tools and compassionate guidance. That kind of work—breaking down barriers to literacy—has far-reaching benefits. It can truly transform the lives of learners who have historically been underserved.
Jacobsen: Have you already started planning for next year?
Grambower: Yes, I’m hopeful they’ll have me back.
Jacobsen: How far in advance do they typically select keynote speakers and finalize topics?
Grambower: Well, I was a bit of a latecomer this time. When I expressed interest, the official submission period had already closed. But I think my passion for boys’ literacy came through, and because it’s a niche topic, they made space for it.
That said, the process is very structured. You have to submit your research and presentation proposal, and go through the review. It’s a lot of work, but it’s done well. I’d say it starts about six months in advance, maybe more.
It was an amazing opportunity because hundreds of submissions were received from people around the world hoping to participate. So, fingers crossed, I’m invited again!
Jacobsen: Who are the main funders and sponsors of the summit?
Grambower: There are a few. One that stands out is Sun Books, which works in low-resource communities to deliver digital reading materials. Various publishing houses are also involved—I don’t have all the names offhand, but they are generous sponsors. And, of course, there are likely private donors supporting the summit as well.
Jacobsen: Right. From what I’ve seen, Amira Learning, the World Literacy Council, and the World Literacy Foundation are among the organizing sponsors. There are also many exhibitors, most of whom are book-related organizations or educational technology companies.
Grambower: Yes, that’s correct. Many are involved in reading programs, publishing, or literacy tech.
Jacobsen: Is the event always based in London?
Grambower: It tends to alternate between London and New York. However, next year, I’ve heard they are keeping it in the UK rather than returning to New York. I would have loved to attend the New York one, but it sounds like they’re staying on the British side for now. I’m not sure if they’ll host it in Oxford again, but Oxford was incredible. Being immersed in that history was truly something special.
Jacobsen: Do you remember that episode during the Trump administration, when they heavily criticized Harvard? Someone from an agency—I forget who—sent a strongly worded letter attacking them for various reasons. It was a political move, but the writing was poor—rhetorically charged and polemical.
What stood out was Harvard’s response: they red-marked the letter like a teacher correcting a student’s paper. It was brilliant—clear, rigorous, and educational. This was the whole point, and it was done perfectly. It was such a delicate yet obvious response. They could have raised many other issues, but this one struck right at the heart of the matter: You don’teven know how to write an introductory letter.
Grambower: Yes! That was precisely it. And this is where we need everyone to value literacy—not just for children, but across all levels of society. It is definitely what drives me. I saw this message echoed again at the World Literacy Summit.
We need to emphasize that adult literacy matters, too. We often forget about adults who cannot read, but this affects everything—medical care, finances, and communication.
Jacobsen: Think of someone who can’t read a medical report or even the instructions on a prescription bottle. The consequences are enormous.
Grambower: Yes. That’s where the concept of functional literacy comes in. It’s about reading and understanding information required for daily living.
Jacobsen: According to The Canadian Encyclopedia, one in six Canadians is functionally illiterate. That likely refers to someone who can’t fully comprehend a bill, a product label, or a government form—basic reading tasks.
Grambower: And then there’s another meaningful term: “aliterate.” It refers to someone who can read but chooses not to. That’s such a sad and increasingly common phenomenon.
We’re all reading off screens, but we’re not engaging deeply. One powerful way to shift that is by encouraging adults, especially fathers, to read visibly and intentionally. I always say, phones don’t count.
If a child sees you on your phone, you could be reading an article, a book, or a newspaper—but to them, it just looks like scrolling. It doesn’t register as reading.
Jacobsen: Right, it’s not the same modelling behaviour.
Grambower: Even if you’re reading a magazine, a paperback, or a newspaper, that has far more impact. It sends a clear message to your child: I value reading. That kind of modelling matters so much, especially from fathers, often underrepresented in literacy narratives.
Jacobsen: Tanya, thank you for the opportunity and your time.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/05
Sapira Cahana is a New York-based mental health counsellor (MHC-LP) and interfaith chaplain-in-training specializing in existential and relational therapy. Cahana integrates philosophy, human rights, ritual studies, Jewish studies, and diverse wisdom traditions into her therapeutic work. She emphasizes honouring client subjectivity, building trust, and engaging playfully with existential themes such as death, freedom, and meaning. From sources like the Hebrew Bible, existential psychotherapy, and Plato’s allegory of the cave, Cahana fosters transformative relationships that navigate complexity, uncertainty, and growth across psychotherapy, hospice care, and broader human experience.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Sapira Cahana. She is a New York-based mental health counsellor (MHC-LP) specializing in existential and relational therapy. With a background in philosophy, human rights, ritual studies, and Jewish studies, she offers a compassionate, justice-oriented space for clients navigating identity, caregiving, chronic illness, and life transitions.
Sapira works with adults, seniors, LGBTQ+ individuals, artists, and neurodiverse clients, guiding them through self-exploration and meaning-making. Her therapeutic approach integrates existential, psychodynamic, and experiential modalities, emphasizing the therapeutic relationship as a source of wisdom. Fluent in English, Hebrew, and French, Sapira provides telehealth services across New York, fostering a reflective environment for personal growth and healing.
In addition to her clinical work, Sapira is training as an interfaith chaplain specializing in hospice care. As an interfaith chaplain, she serves individuals from diverse religious, spiritual, and secular backgrounds, offering inclusive support that honours each person’s unique worldview.
How do your secular and interfaith principles contribute to ethical decision-making, particularly globally, when providing telehealth services?
Sapira Cahana: Thank you for asking. When I refer to “secular,” I do not mean excluding religion; instead, I mean not privileging any single hermeneutic tradition. Instead, I engage with a broad tapestry of traditions and wisdom sources. I incorporate interreligious and intercommunal dialogue richness without centring any community over another. By integrating imagery, language, and wisdom from many traditions—including secular humanist perspectives—clients are supported in a way that enriches ethical decision-making. Ethical practice becomes informed by a multiplicity of voices rather than a singular authority, allowing for more expansive and authentic reflection.
Jacobsen: How would you characterize the principle of linking different sources together in a way that resonates with a particular client’s context?
Cahana: You are asking about creating experiences that resonate at a deep, personal level, correct? The goal is to meet the individual where they are, drawing upon traditions, images, and wisdom that are meaningful to their personal story and context. It is about situational responsiveness—tailoring the integration of sources to make the work ethically grounded and personally meaningful.
Well, we are all embedded in our contexts. We are all situated individuals. Each human is positioned within their vantage point and integrates many sources of material and wisdom.
Once I begin parsing through where a client’s language, imagery, and metaphors are coming from—whether from capitalist culture, Rembrandt, or elsewhere—I start weaving with them to create curated, connected experiences. I enter what Heidegger would call their “life worlds,” together, we expand and deepen their meaning through their language. In this work, I am constantly the “other” in the space. They are the subject. I am there to honour their subjecthood, using my otherness to relate, connect, disconnect, and reconnect—this is the essential material of the phenomenological approach.
This profound experience of being connected—subject and other, facing one another in an “I-Thou” relationship—translates into different relationships and experiences. It fosters individuation, the ability to separate one’s material from another’s. Yes, it is a transformative process that changes people’s lives, families, communities, and, ultimately, the world.
Jacobsen: What are the factors of rapport and trust? How do you ensure those are built into the therapeutic space?
Cahana: Yes. My first assumption is that there is no complete knowing of another. It is profoundly uncomfortable, especially as a therapist, because my deepest intention is to know and connect, while the client’s deepest intention is to be known and seen.
However, I clarify that as much as I desire that connection, true knowing is elusive. Yet the yearning—the deep wish to cleave into a relationship—is vital. That yearning brings integrity and builds trust. Naming the inevitable dissonance of relationships—acknowledging that there will be fractures—creates space for repair. I remain steady, stable, and ready to receive someone fully. We are never fully known, but we can make deep, persistent attempts to move closer and closer.
Jacobsen: The therapeutic population you work with is either self-selecting or sometimes mandated to attend therapy. It is not an entirely random sample of the general population. For your style of therapeutic process, what do you notice are some through-lines among the people who come to you?
Cahana: People who come to me are often in oblivion—an unknown, a fugue. They seek someone willing to be with them in that haze, someone who can sit in the fog without rushing to clarity. Together, we begin clearing the path, walking through the jungle of their experience.
I walk alongside people. I meet them closely where they are, believing I cannot fully know them. Clients are often drawn to my deep love of wisdom and ability to weave together world knowledge and cultures. My orientation is global, not confined to the microcosm of New York City—even though New York itself is so expansive. It is a world-based approach that resonates with people looking for something broader, something that connects across cultures and traditions.
There are so many people in New York, yet there is still a whole world beyond New York. Even if the world moved to New York, there would still be a world outside. I focus on transcendence and the magnitude of colour, grass, poetry, andhistory—that sense that there is a past and a future. It is so psychedelic and beautiful. There are microbiomes, astronauts, and the vastness of the universe.
Even though we may focus on one person in therapy, we are also a vessel, a signal for the magnitude and largeness of life. My goal is always to help people fall back in love with that grandeur.
Jacobsen: Are there particular cases where an individual is almost not fully a person in the sense of being fragmented internally—where the structure they present is quite chaotic and difficult to map and reorient toward a more coherent, stable self?
Cahana: My assumption is—and this may turn the idea on its head—that most people are chaotic. That description applies broadly. People are endlessly surprised. You might think you can put a thumbprint on someone and say, “This is my easy client,” and suddenly, something unexpected surfaces.
When I was training, I worked with clients with disabilities who were aging and had secondary diagnoses. A good example would be someone with schizophrenia muscular dystrophy who was 85 years old, nearing death. On paper, you could say that it is a complex case—a lot is happening—but they are still themselves.
I developed a sense of what therapeutic deep care looks like. It is not love—not in the romantic or familial sense—but rather a profound cherishing. It is the feeling of holding a human life in your hands with deep reverence. That is so profound and special.
I do not find anyone easily cast into a descriptor. People are too complex, too fluid. I am happy to flow with curiosity. To answer your earlier question, that is why people come to me: I am not writing a rigid script or saying, “This is our goal, and you will be fixed in three weeks.” I do not know—and I am comfortable with that uncertainty. The people who journey with me are also comfortable with it.
It would be lovely if healing were as simple as checking a box—finished and done. But that is not how I relate to grass, the moon cycles, or the world. If I am journeying with you, it is because there is an attraction to that kind of fluidity and comfort within the oblivion that I mentioned earlier.
Jacobsen: What existential themes arise for people who are in hospice?
Cahana: Well, in hospice, yes, the most excellent existential theme is, of course, death. But even more deeply, the real existential theme is freedom—people’s desire for freedom and their profound experience of alienation in an institutionalized setting.
I work in a beautiful hospice and am deeply grateful for where I am. But ultimately, even the best institutional setting cannot fully curate a person’s death. People are not in complete control. Much of my work happens after people have been poked, prodded, and spoken to clinically about dosages, pain acuity, or critical status. I get to come in and ask: But who are you?
Often, people say, “This shell that you’re seeing—that’s not who I am.” Surprisingly, hospice becomes an extraordinarily playful space. People experience alienation because institutions almost inevitably create distance. Very few people truly thrive in institutional environments.
At the end of life, people are trying to decide how they will relate to their death—specifically through their experiences of freedom. It is extraordinary. Much of my time with people at the end of life is spent playing. There is so much levity alongside so much depth. It has been an enormous gift to witness and be part of that.
Jacobsen: When people are isolated in institutional settings or confronted by the sterility and artificial regularity of those environments, how do they describe it?
Cahana: People are seeking a home, a feeling of home. They often say, “I want to go home.”
One charming patient, who was deeply righteous and fiercely independent—almost a literary character—once described the staff to me. She said, “Sapira, the staff here are butterflies.” I said, “Butterflies? That’s curious.” And she explained, “They flit.” Then she waved goodbye and said, “I’m going to bed now. Bye-bye.”
It was so charming and poignant—a beautiful image. Her description of the staff flitting reflected her desire to flit away, to have agency, even if it was limited. At that moment, her only absolute control was the power to dismiss me. And I consider it the most incredible honour to leave when asked.
In hospice, within the span of two encounters, one patient may call me “an angel,” praising me effusively, while another might say, “You liar—you didn’t come back at 4:35!” It is the same material—an endless oscillation between praise and vitriol—and it is all profoundly human.
It is the same energy. It is a desire to relate, be in control, and be connected—but on someone else’s terms. It is my most incredible honour to be the vessel for someone’s praise, and equally, it is my most incredible honour to be the vessel for someone’s rejection. Yes, it has been beautiful work—excellent work.
Jacobsen: Now, given the occasional vitriol—perhaps not actual vitriol, but a little berating—are mutual respect and empathy always necessary for efficacious therapy? Or are those sometimes secondary to therapeutic goals set earlier by the client when doing meaning-making work?
Cahana: Thank you for asking that critical question. My roles as a chaplain and a psychotherapist are quite distinct in this respect. That is a key point of separation.
In chaplaincy, especially end-of-life chaplaincy, I must receive whatever is given to me unquestioningly and with profound respect. It is a great honour to be one of the last people someone encounters, even if I have only known them briefly. I allow unconditional empathy to exist there, and I am deeply comfortable with that.
In psychotherapy, however, if there is ongoing deep anger, berating, or profuse vitriol—and it persists week after week—while the person continues to show up and remains engaged, I am much more likely to confront it directly. I might say, “I am here. I want to be here. I see that you deeply want to be here. But what is happening? How are we going to sustain a relationship like this?”
I would allow it to continue for weeks before naming it explicitly, but if the dynamic persists and a blockage in empathy and trust prevents movement, we need to delineate what is happening. Is the goal to move through the muck together? Or is the goal to express anger?
That becomes a question of choice. When clients opt into therapy with me, they are making a choice. But if something consistently blocks relational growth, we must face it together.
By contrast, people do not opt into therapy in hospice. I call my role “making pilgrimage”—moving from room to room, offering presence without expectation. It is very different: in hospice, I am the visitor; in psychotherapy, there is a mutual contract of engagement.
Jacobsen: What about a finer-grained analysis of your health and well-being as someone working in hospice or psychotherapy? For instance, if a client’s berating crosses the line into abusive behaviour toward you as a service provider, are you ethically permitted to terminate the therapeutic relationship under specific circumstances?
Cahana: Yes. There are ethical guidelines that permit termination under certain circumstances. I have, in fact, led group therapy where a participant berated me consistently for eight months. It was not easy, but as long as it served the therapeutic process and the group dynamics held, I remained.
However, if the dynamic becomes truly abusive—meaning it impedes the therapeutic process, harms the provider’s well-being, or risks creating a harmful environment for others—ethically, termination must and sometimes be considered. It would involve careful documentation, clear communication, and, ideally, a referral to another provider to keep the client’s care uninterrupted.
It is always a balancing act: honouring the client’s suffering and expression while protecting the integrity and health of the therapeutic space—for the client’s sake, my own, and anyone else involved.
And I stayed with it. I have pretty good patience—yes—and that is a skill. I knew intuitively that if someone had a deep hatred toward me—if my breathing made their skin itch, if they had overwhelming emotions directed at me—that was still something we could work on.
I had a client who berated me for about eight months. I was leading group therapy sessions, talking about active listening, morality, existentialism, or running psychodrama exercises. This particular person would sit on the outside of the group and heckle constantly: “You’re stupid,” “You don’t know what you’re talking about,” “Why are you treating us like babies?”
And there must be feedback hidden there. I would respond calmly: “Yes, I hear you. I am leading right now, so if you could give me five seconds to complete this point, I would be happy to hear your input afterward.” They would heckle again, and I would stay steady: “That’s noted.”
Then, unexpectedly, they received a serious medical diagnosis. And for whatever reason, they asked me to be the person to listen to them.
It is almost a silly story because there was an arc, but I was comfortable without needing that arc to conclude. It was fine either way.
I have also had other clients who have been highly dysregulated—one who came right into my face in a moment of extreme agitation and called me the wrong name. They said, “Slippers! You’re not listening!”
I kept my face completely still, but inside, I was cackling. It was wonderful. You do not have to know my name—I do not expect you to—but you wanted to name me—you wanted to relate to me—and even though you got it wrong, the impulse to connect was there.
I see so much of this as material. I am not innately afraid of clients or people. I could have reason to be, but I am not.
I understand fundamentally that people are born and people die. That is the facticity of life. Those two facts bind us all, no matter who we are or what we’ve lived. Whether you are religious or not, those facts themselves are extraordinary. There is divinity in the facts of life.
However someone interprets it—religiously, spiritually, or otherwise—it remains extraordinary to be a human being on this Earth.
Sometimes, I think of it like the yellow Google Maps figure you can drag and drop anywhere in the world. Maybe it is a reference from 2012, but that image captures it for me: this ability to be placed anywhere and the wonder that, wherever you are dropped, there is life happening—life, with all its magnitude and mystery.
It is like that—a yellow, amorphous being that you can dangle and then drop into a street view. So much of life is just coming into consciousness, and suddenly, you think, “I have great-great-grandparents? What are you talking about? My parents were once children. My guardians were once young?”
What is life? There is history, journalism, psychotherapy—it is all so bizarre. We are all just here. And if you can stay with the mastery and magnitude of whatever created existence—or whatever it is—then it is pretty amazing. It is extraordinary.
And then there are queer studies, disability studies, and all these different hermeneutic lenses you can bring to bear, seeing the world through various frameworks of how Islam views the world, how a small sect within Islam views the world. You have never even heard of how another sect might be at war with the first in a region.
There is the king of Jordan—endlessly famous within Jordan—yet, in North America, he could walk the street anonymously. It is astonishing how much richness there is in this world.
Jacobsen: How does the allegory of Plato’s cave help structure the philosophy of your meta-hermeneutic approach?
Cahana: Well, yes—sense perceptions are central.
The cave is a critical image. I love other powerful metaphors, like Pirandello’s Six Characters in Search of an Author, which also touches on these ideas, though it is less widely known.
The therapeutic space itself is a cave. It is an oasis, perhaps—but it is also a dark, enclosed space where you can throw off the cliff whatever you do not want to work with that day. You can parse through your experience and even reach first principles. That is what the cave represents: it is dug into the mountain’s edge, a space apart.
We are all cleaving toward truth. There is a truth in the universe, and none of us fully knows it. Some might be closer than others, but even that is uncertain. We are all in the mystery together.
At the same time, other people in our worlds have different visions and perspectives. They encroach on us, intentionally or not. Our relationships are often unsatisfying. Our material reality is messy and never perfectly “right.” If we hyper-fixate on that imperfection, it can lead to deep isolation or a belief that only the self is reliable—which is another false perception.
There is, perhaps, an ideal world—Plato’s world of Forms: the ideal horse, justice, and truth. We always strive toward that ideal, climbing a ladder we might never reach the top of.
But the goal, ultimately, is to harmonize with reality, to see others more softly, to recognize that others were born and that they, too, have lived experiences, dreams, and failures.
We sincerely wish to fix the world and put everything in perfect order. But the waves will crash, and the sandcastle will dissolve. The work is to rebuild—again and again.
It is about rebuilding the sandcastle. I have also been thinking a lot about Sisyphus lately. Yes, reflecting on Sisyphus as a figure of punishment.
I heard a beautiful podcast–”Everything is Alive- Chioke Grain of Sand“–that discussed how, over hundreds of thousands of years, the conditions in the story of Sisyphus—where he is condemned to push an enormous boulder up a mountain for eternity—would inevitably change.
It becomes a striking image: perhaps the boulder becomes like a marble over time, and the mountain face flattens. Eventually, it is no longer an endless toil but something meaningful. Sisyphus could even play games with that bit of marble. I find that image beautiful and spectacular.
We also recently read another piece. It is a poem by a literary critic, poet translator with his take on Sisyphus is named Stephen Mitchell. He writes that Sisyphus loves the boulder. He loves everything about the boulder. You can say what you want about his punishment, but Sisyphus fully cleaves to his reality. It goes as follows:
We tend to think of Sisyphus as a tragic hero,
condemned by the gods to shoulder his
rock sweatily up the mountain, and again up the mountain, forever.
The truth is that Sisyphus is in love with the rock. He cherishes every roughness and
every ounce of it. He talks to it, sings to it. It has become the Mysterious Other. He
evens dreams of it as he sleepwalks upward. Life is unimaginable without it, looming
always above him like a huge gray moon.
He doesn’t realize that at any moment he is permitted to step aside, let the rock hurtle to
the bottom, and go home.
That, too, is a beautiful lens into the story.
There are endless powerful images—whether from the Hebrew Bible, the Christian Bible, or other sources. But the cave allegory remains especially helpful: it says things are not quite what they seem, and we start working it out.
Let us go through a dialogue. Let us wrestle with the endless questions: What are the shadows? Who are those shadows? What is the outside? What happens when the shackles come off? What happens when you try to convince others?
There are so many good, rich questions there.
Jacobsen: Could you share some of your favourite existentialist or Hebrew quotes that you find relevant to therapy?
Cahana: So, my favourite quotes are from the Hebrew Bible and Existentialist. I am always connected to the book of Ecclesiastes from the Hebrew Bible. I often repeat the opening line, which is so strong: “Futility of futilities, everything is futile.” It is a fantastic and strangely charming statement. It captures so much existential truth.
As for an existentialist quote, I love a line from Irvin Yalom, the existential psychotherapist. He says—and I am paraphrasing slightly—”It’s the relationship that heals. It’s the relationship that heals. It’s the relationship that heals.”
That mantra sits on my professional rosary. It is something I find beautiful and endlessly relevant.
Jacobsen: Perfect—both quotes feel like mantras. And both seem deeply relevant for hospice work, too.
In North America, the image of someone in hospice with a rosary is common, so the idea of a professional or therapeutic rosary fits beautifully.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/04
Irina Tsukerman is a human rights and national security attorney based in New York and Connecticut. She earned her Bachelor of Arts in National and Intercultural Studies and Middle East Studies from Fordham University in 2006, followed by a Juris Doctor from Fordham University School of Law in 2009. She operates a boutique national security law practice. She serves as President of Scarab Rising, Inc., a media and security strategic advisory firm. Additionally, she is the Editor-in-Chief of The Washington Outsider, which focuses on foreign policy, geopolitics, security, and human rights. She is actively involved in several professional organizations, including the American Bar Association’s Energy, Environment, and Science and Technology Sections, where she holds the position of Program Vice Chair in the Oil and Gas Committee. She is also a member of the New York City Bar Association. She serves on the Middle East and North Africa Affairs Committee and affiliates with the Foreign and Comparative Law Committee. This interview conducted May 23, 2025.Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So today, we’re here with American attorney Irina Tuskerman. Turning to Eastern Europe, the largest Russian–Ukrainian prisoner exchange since the full-scale invasion began took place on May 23-25, 2025, in which approximately 1,000 prisoners were released by each side, including 120 civilians each. Freed Ukrainian personnel arrived at an undisclosed site in northern Ukraine, where they reunited with families, while Russian POWs returned to Russia. Any thoughts?Irina Tsukerman: Yes. It was a highly complex and politically sensitive event. To put it mildly, it was a high-stakes humanitarian and symbolic maneuver. It carried immense risk but was carefully coordinated, blending humanitarian aims with strategic signaling, psychological dimensions, and diplomatic nuance.These figures are not merely battlefield commanders—they have become symbols of Ukrainian resilience and defiance. The Azov Regiment (now officially a brigade within the Ukrainian National Guard) has been the subject of intense international scrutiny and Russian disinformation campaigns.It is true that the Azov Battalion, founded in 2014, had connections to far-right figures in its early formation. However, those individuals have since departed, and the unit has been formally integrated into the Ukrainian armed forces. For years, it has trained with U.S. and NATO forces and now includes personnel of diverse ideological, ethnic, and religious backgrounds.While the term “nationalist” may still apply in the sense of patriotism and defense of national sovereignty, Azov today is no longer defined by extremist ideology. This evolution has often been ignored or distorted by Russian propaganda, which has attempted to label all Ukrainian resistance as far-right to justify aggression. These efforts intensified after Azov’s effective defense of Mariupol, which inflicted heavy Russian losses and garnered international admiration.Over time, even the U.S. Congress reversed earlier restrictions and permitted military assistance and cooperation with Azov, acknowledging its reformed status and rejecting disinformation narratives.Jacobsen: The Kremlin’s reach, as you mentioned, extends far beyond Ukraine. We have seen this pattern before—extrajudicial assassinations in Germany, Austria, Turkey, and even Spain. Russia has killed defectors, pilots, and Chechen dissidents across Europe in defiance of international norms.Tsukerman: Another intriguing and controversial figure in this context is Nadiya Savchenko. She is a former Ukrainian Air Force pilot and former Member of Parliament. Once celebrated as a national hero and former prisoner of war, her later trajectory included allegations of plotting against Ukraine’s government and even rumors of links to Russian intelligence, particularly the FSB.Her role in the prisoner swap negotiations is unclear. Whether she is a direct participant, a symbolic figure, or a bargaining chip, her name introduces a layer of political ambiguity. There are strong suggestions of backchannel diplomacy, hidden quid pro quos, and intelligence games operating in the background.Jacobsen: That raises important questions. To what extent has Savchenko been used as a pawn in larger intelligence and political games? What does her fluctuating reputation indicate about the rifts within Ukrainian politics and the shadow world of espionage that runs parallel to the open conflict?Tsukerman: Precisely. The asymmetrical nature of the prisoner list—some high-value individuals exchanged, others conspicuously withheld—reveals the conflicting interests and power imbalances that shape these negotiations. While the scale of the exchange appears to be a diplomatic success, it was far from a straightforward or balanced process. Political calculation was deeply embedded in every aspect of the swap.Jacobsen: For Russia, retaining Chechen fighters and other insurgents serves dual strategic objectives: preserving internal control over separatist regions and maintaining leverage over Ukraine in ongoing and future negotiations.Tsukerman: Absolutely. For Kyiv, regaining prominent Azov Brigade leaders is both tactically and symbolically significant. However, it also reveals an underlying vulnerability—hundreds of Ukrainian prisoners remain in Russian custody, many with little hope for swift release.While the repatriation of high-profile figures was met with public celebration, it masks a deeper humanitarian crisis. Numerous former detainees have reported psychological trauma, physical abuse, and severe deprivation during their captivity. These accounts paint a stark and troubling picture, sharply contrasting with the triumphant national rhetoric. The suffering endured behind bars is a grim reminder that prisoner swaps are not just political maneuvers—they are deeply human events with lasting consequences.Jacobsen: And that suffering does not end upon release.Tsukerman: Correct. The psychological scars and physical injuries many freed prisoners carry raise serious concerns about Ukraine’s capacity to effectively rehabilitate and reintegrate them. The infrastructure needed for such support—medical, psychological, and social—is overwhelmed and underfunded.Why? Because Western aid has prioritized lethal weaponry, battlefield emergency medical supplies, and basic logistics. Broader humanitarian programs, especially long-term rehabilitation, have often been treated as secondary. Some former prisoners have been transferred to the West for treatment, but these cases are exceptions.Recently, humanitarian aid has been deliberately downplayed in political discourse—especially in the United States—due to a growing narrative that such spending is wasteful or vulnerable to corruption. This viewpoint is driven not only by anti-war sentiment but also by pro-military advocates who paradoxically claim to oppose war while arguing that only military aid is justifiable.Jacobsen: That raises an ethical dilemma. Without long-term support, these soldiers could be sent back into combat before they fully recover—physically or mentally.Tsukerman: Precisely. This not only increases human suffering but also weakens Ukraine’s overall military effectiveness. Moreover, families of those still detained in Russian prisons are growing increasingly frustrated. Many accuse the Ukrainian government of lacking transparency, failing in advocacy, and prioritizing symbolic victories over sustained diplomatic efforts to free those left behind.Moscow’s selective release strategy fuels a propaganda narrative that portrays Ukraine as incapable of protecting its own citizens. This undermines domestic morale and diplomatic credibility, especially in the U.S. and several European states.Jacobsen: The swap seems to have ignited another debate—whether these exchanges are truly humanitarian acts or political instruments.Tsukerman: Indeed. Both Kyiv and Moscow appear to be using prisoner swaps as tools of strategic messaging and leverage, rather than as purely humanitarian actions. This instrumentalization raises serious ethical concerns. Are prisoners of war being respected under international humanitarian law, or are they being held as bargaining chips?Despite the challenges Ukraine faces—including war-related infrastructure damage and economic strain—the disparity in prisoner treatment between the two sides is notable. Reports overwhelmingly suggest that Ukrainian prisoners held in Russia suffer far more than Russian prisoners held in Ukraine. This disproportion underscores the need for international scrutiny of Russia’s detention practices.Jacobsen: One final issue—the Azov Brigade. The return of its commanders has again stirred international debate.Tsukerman: Yes, the presence of Azov commanders in this prisoner swap has reignited controversies over the brigade’s political legacy. Russia continues to portray Azov as a neo-Nazi militia, a key narrative used to justify its invasion. While, as we discussed, the brigade has undergone structural and ideological transformations and has long been incorporated into Ukraine’s National Guard, the optics remain sensitive.Kyiv must now navigate the delicate task of acknowledging Azov’s significant battlefield role while distancing itself from the extremist labels amplified by Russian propaganda. This is both a domestic and international communications challenge—one that Ukraine must manage carefully to maintain unity and legitimacy in the eyes of its allies.Jacobsen: It has not been a major issue recently, since much of the older narrative has been exposed as a Russian propaganda tactic, but we should not entirely discount its resurgence. Russia is known for recycling past disinformation successes and exploiting trends that shift in its favor.Tsukerman: Right now, the anti-Zelensky posture among some Trump-aligned figures in the United States plays to Moscow’s advantage. The current political climate may offer Russia a window of opportunity to reintroduce disinformation campaigns—particularly those targeting Azov or prisoner exchange narratives—with renewed traction.Looking ahead, several possible scenarios are worth considering.First, the prisoner swap may serve as the basis for incremental confidence-building measures—a rare cooperative act in an otherwise brutal and unpredictable conflict. It could mark a small but meaningful step toward future broader peace talks.However, the incomplete nature of the exchange, and Moscow’s continued detention of key prisoners, leaves room for a prolonged stalemate and the perpetuation of hostage diplomacy. This ambiguity allows Russia to maintain psychological and political pressure on Ukraine.More concerning is the possibility that Russia will exploit this leverage to fuel internal discord within Ukraine, a tactic it has used consistently. This is a topic deserving deeper discussion in its own right.Jacobsen: Could you draw a parallel with other regions?Tsukerman: Certainly. Russia has been training its allies and proxy groups, including Hamas, in the use of hostage diplomacy as a psychological and political weapon. Hamas operatives have reportedly traveled to Moscow for this very purpose—learning how to manage, manipulate, and prolong hostage situations to pressure governments and sway public opinion.This same strategy is now playing out in multiple conflicts across the globe. The commonality of tactics among these groups is not a coincidence—it reflects a shared playbook that originates in Moscow and has been disseminated to state and non-state actors alike.For Ukraine, this approach may result in deepened political tensions, weakening national unity at a critical moment in the war. The saga underscores how prisoner exchanges can function as part of hybrid warfare, blending humanitarianism with information warfare, intelligence operations, and geopolitical influence.The unresolved status of Chechen fighters Adam Osmayev and Amina Okuyeva further ties the conflict in Ukraine to Russia’s internal security fragility, particularly in the North Caucasus. These ripples go far beyond the immediate battlefield and touch on the deeper structural anxieties within the Russian Federation.Jacobsen: So what does this particular swap tell us, in the end?Tsukerman: The largest prisoner swap between Russia and Ukraine to date encapsulates the multifaceted and often contradictory nature of this war. On one hand, it offered a rare humanizing moment, the joyful return of dozens of Ukrainians. But it was also marred by political exclusions, strategic calculation, disinformation campaigns, and the enduring uncertainty surrounding hundreds still detained.Ultimately, it reminds us that beneath the headlines of victory and relief, there are unresolved and pressing questions about justice, strategy, and the human cost of the war. These cannot be addressed through public spectacle alone.Jacobsen: Alright, mindful of the time, before we hand it back to the team, I’ll stay with the flow we discussed. We’ve touched on prisoner swaps and some Middle East escalation, particularly regarding similar tactics. Since this next topic falls squarely in your expertise, let’s jump briefly to Operation NK.Or—actually—would you prefer to start with the West Bank developments as of May 23? Just a quick overview, and then we’ll pivot to cybersecurity, where, frankly, the complexity tends to lose most people—but that’s where you thrive.Jacobsen: Please go ahead.Tsukerman: Certainly. In the West Bank, there has been a recent surge in violence accompanied by a deepening spiral of tension, trauma, and uncertainty. Any attempt to frame this conflict in simplistic terms is not only insufficient but, frankly, dangerously misleading.Recent headlines have highlighted stabbing attacks, settler reprisals, and Israeli military raids. But beneath these headlines lies a labyrinth of local power struggles, ideological battles, strategic manipulation, and disinformation campaigns that defy any clear-cut categorization.The latest wave of violence is often presented as either an eruption of settler violence or, conversely, as Palestinian terrorism. In truth, the situation is far more fractured and complex. It demands a nuanced examination.We must ask difficult questions:To what extent has sexual violence in the conflict been exaggerated or underreported for political purposes?How instrumental have Kahanist elements and ultranationalist factions within the Israeli government been in encouraging or legitimizing acts of aggression?And to what degree are Palestinian organizations reliable narrators of on-the-ground violence?These are crucial issues, especially as Israel is also engaged in ongoing conflict along the Gaza front. In the West Bank, there have been documented incidents of settler-perpetrated violence—ranging from physical assaults to property destruction and intimidation of Palestinian civilians. These acts are undeniable and have increased in frequency.However, the scale and systemic nature of this violence is often amplified by advocacy groups and media outlets, sometimes suggesting a centrally coordinated campaign. This narrative risks erasing the diversity within the settler community, which is far from monolithic.Some settlers are ideological hardliners, including young extremists influenced by religious nationalism. Others, however, are pragmatic families, farmers, and individuals whose primary concerns are personal safety and land rights—many of whom do not engage in or condone violence.Jacobsen: What role do political leaders play in this escalation?Tsukerman: A significant one. Take Itamar Ben-Gvir, for example. As a member of Israel’s war cabinet and a prominent figure in ultranationalist politics, he has promoted expansionist policies and has made inflammatory statements that often cross into racist or incitement rhetoric.While he may not directly call for violence, his dog-whistling and ambiguous language have emboldened certain factions. His presence in government sends a powerful signal that fosters settler self-assertiveness, both nonviolent and violent, toward Palestinians viewed as security threats or obstacles to land ambitions.Yet even within this context, the level of government sanction or encouragement for violence remains murky. The Israeli government has officially condemned sexual violence and certain forms of settler aggression. However, enforcement is weak. Investigations are often delayed or inconclusive, citing stretched resources due to broader security demands.This ambiguity feeds Palestinian perceptions of impunity and injustice, which in turn stokes resentment and retaliatory violence. These narratives are actively weaponized by local terrorist groups to justify further provocations, creating a self-reinforcing cycle.The blurred lines between official security policy, state-sanctioned operations, and settler activism make accountability extraordinarily difficult in the current environment.Jacobsen: What about the Palestinian factions in the West Bank?Tsukerman: That is another complicating factor. The Palestinian political and militant landscape in the West Bank is fragmented. Unlike Gaza, which is governed by Hamas, the West Bank is home to multiple factions—including Fatah, Hamas cells, and independent armed groups—often with competing objectives and strategies.This fragmentation complicates attribution and response. Acts of violence may be carried out by one group, condemned by another, and spun in divergent ways depending on the political goals at hand. These factions do not present a unified front and should not be treated as a monolith either.So, while many focus on Israeli settler aggression or military operations, the internal Palestinian dynamics, the presence of Hamas in the West Bank, and local power struggles all contribute to the cycle of violence and mistrust.Jacobsen: Could you expand on the internal divisions among Palestinian factions in the West Bank and how that affects the conflict?Tsukerman: Of course. The situation is deeply fragmented. In the West Bank, you have several major and minor actors vying for influence—often violently. Among them are Iran-backed Palestinian Islamic Jihad, a Shi’a-aligned militant group, and Fatah, the dominant party in the Palestinian Authority, which also operates the Al-Aqsa Martyrs’ Brigades.The Al-Aqsa Brigades have been involved in joint operations with Hamas, Palestinian Islamic Jihad, and other factions—including reported participation in the October 7 attacks, though their involvement varies across regions and operational contexts.There are also smaller militias and local armed groups that compete for power, visibility, and legitimacy. They often issue contradictory or exaggerated claims of responsibility for attacks. For instance, following stabbing incidents or armed clashes, Palestinian groups sometimes claim credit only to have their statements later disputed by eyewitness accounts, journalistic investigations, or Israeli intelligence assessments.Jacobsen: So the propaganda war is just as chaotic as the ground situation.Tsukerman: Exactly. The information environment is highly contested, and verification becomes very difficult. Spontaneous or lone-wolf acts of violence are frequently co-opted by these groups to enhance their image, even if they had no direct involvement. This opportunistic behavior turns attribution into a political tool, rather than a factual accounting.These issues are further complicated by the inconsistent stance of the Palestinian Authority (PA). Under Mahmoud Abbas, the PA has officially condemned some acts of violence, but not all. Since October 7, there have been signs of both official and unofficial alignment between the PA and Hamas on certain fronts.The PA walks a very fine line: on one hand, it maintains security cooperation with Israel to preserve its limited autonomy and Western financial support. On the other hand, it does not want to appear irrelevant, especially when Hamas’ militant approach has rallied popular sentiment among Palestinians in some areas. This dynamic has led to ambiguous messaging and a lack of unified leadership, undermining effective responses.Jacobsen: What about the escalation of Israeli military operations?Tsukerman: That’s another flashpoint. Israel has increased operations in the West Bank, particularly in areas like Jeninand Nablus, which it frames as counter-terrorism measures aimed at disrupting weapons caches and apprehending active militants.From the Israeli perspective, these are targeted raids. But they often result in civilian casualties and significant property damage, which fuel local resentment and accusations of collective punishment. Palestinians portray many of these incursions as punitive in nature, especially when entire neighborhoods are affected.Interestingly, even Fatah-affiliated PA officials have, at times, requested Israeli intervention to clear out areas like Jenin, which had become strongholds for Hamas and Palestinian Islamic Jihad. Jenin is so volatile it has become, in some cases, a no-go zone for even moderate Palestinian factions.Jacobsen: And then there’s the broader geopolitical influence.Tsukerman: Absolutely. Iran plays a critical role by providing funding, weapons, and training to militant groups in both Gaza and the West Bank. Its support incentivizes continued violence that aligns with Tehran’s regional objectives, particularly the goal of undermining Israeli and U.S.-aligned regimes.Meanwhile, external actors like the Gulf States attempt to manage the conflict through economic aid and humanitarian diplomacy, trying to stabilize the region while asserting their own interests.Even former U.S. initiatives—such as the Trump-era Peace to Prosperity Plan and his recent comments about “taking over Gaza”—have escalated tensions, by signaling shifts in U.S. policy that embolden certain actors while alienating others.Jacobsen: What about the role of information warfare and public messaging?Tsukerman: That’s a key point. Both Palestinian factions and Israeli officials engage in aggressive media strategies, often through social media, to shape the global narrative. However, they tend to speak past each other—not to each other’s populations.For example, Palestinian organizations often communicate effectively with left-wing and activist circles in Israel and the West, but not with Netanyahu’s base. Conversely, Netanyahu’s coalition occasionally issues Arabic-language messages, but these are met with deep skepticism and limited penetration among Palestinian audiences.So while both sides deploy messaging to support their goals, these efforts frequently reinforce internal narratives rather than fostering any mutual understanding or engagement. The end result is a highly polarized, insular communication loop, further entrenching division and mistrust.Western agencies’ countermeasures—often clandestine and aggressive—can provoke reciprocal actions, escalating tensions and setting the stage for a cyber arms race with unpredictable consequences. When Western governments assert that certain hackers are “private” actors who align ideologically with Russia or China, but remain technically independent, this framing often reflects the challenges of attribution in cyberspace. It is difficult to definitively link hackers to official state commands due to the covert nature of operations, use of proxies, and technical obfuscation. However, this ambiguity can also serve strategic purposes—such as avoiding escalation with nation-states and sidestepping direct retaliation or diplomatic fallout.To that end, the United States and its allies often target symbolic or critical cyber infrastructure and conduct operations against entities involved in command-and-control, reconnaissance, exploitation, and sabotage—often referred to as CACRES—while refraining from publicly declaring such operations acts of war. This restraint reflects both legal ambiguity and political calculation.One particularly controversial figure in this domain is Evgeny Harych Savchenko. While there is no publicly verified connection between him and Nadiya Savchenko, the former Ukrainian military pilot and politician, the similarity in names can cause confusion. Evgeny Harych Savchenko has been named in cybersecurity reports and investigative journalism as having possible links to Russian intelligence services, specifically the Federal Security Service (FSB). He is accused of involvement in cyber intrusions that have targeted Western political institutions, financial networks, and infrastructure. His potential capture or extradition remains speculative and serves as a case study in the complexities of international cyber law enforcement, particularly where state protection or plausible deniability is involved.This underscores a broader issue: state-affiliated hackers often operate under legal gray zones, shielded by jurisdictional boundaries and the principle of sovereign non-interference. Meanwhile, ethical challenges multiply. Cross-border cyber operations may violate international norms, infringe on national sovereignty, and raise concerns about due process, data privacy, and unintended collateral consequences. Although there are efforts to foster international law enforcement cooperation—such as through INTERPOL, Europol, and various bilateral frameworks—these efforts are not always effective. Some nations refuse cooperation outright or obstruct investigations, especially when their geopolitical interests are implicated.This leads to a persistent dilemma: should democratic states respect legal boundaries even when cooperation is denied, or should they take unilateral action to apprehend cybercriminals and neutralize threats? The use of malware or offensive cyber tools to disable adversary systems comes with high risks—including potential harm to civilian infrastructure, accidental data exposure, and questions around transparency, oversight, and accountability. Civilian protections are often afterthoughts in such operations, even though they are central to international humanitarian law discussions.Private sector cooperation is both essential and fraught. Technology firms and cybersecurity companies serve as frontline defenders and intelligence intermediaries, but they must navigate competing pressures—balancing user privacy, profitability, and government requests. For example, Microsoft’s Digital Crimes Unit has partnered with global law enforcement to disrupt botnets and cybercrime networks. However, such collaborations raise ongoing debates about transparency, the protection of proprietary data, and operational security.Cybersecurity, once the purview of niche technical experts, has now become a central component of national and international security policy. It is increasingly tied to geopolitics, economic stability, and democratic resilience.Yes—if this were an advertisement for 21st-century geopolitical complexity, it would be a compelling one. And so, yes.What I was saying is that some of these companies, for profit, sell exploits. And they are often easily penetrated themselves because many cybersecurity professionals are so preoccupied with speaking engagements and public discussions that they are not necessarily conducting due diligence on active threat networks.But for the U.S., maintaining strong internal coordination as well as alliances with foreign countries is crucial. The capacity to penetrate and disrupt hostile cyber networks is a key factor in signaling resolve and technological superiority to China, Russia, and states aligned with them. We should be examining scenario forecasting related to the long-term impact of this digital separation.The most optimistic interpretation is that sustained disruption of cybercriminal and hostile nation-state networks could improve global cyber hygiene, reduce attacks on critical infrastructure, and foster greater international cooperation on cybersecurity norms, best practices, and law enforcement. Enhanced cyber resilience could stabilize financial markets, protect democratic elections, and safeguard essential services. That would be a good thing.But a more pessimistic—and in my opinion, far more realistic—outlook is that this could evolve into a cyber Cold War that spirals into kinetic conflict. Not necessarily direct military confrontation, but hybrid operations with retaliatory strikes targeting utilities, transportation, or military systems.And frankly, we are already seeing some of that unfold. Cyber actors are using anonymizing technologies and decentralized structures, as I mentioned earlier. This complicates both detection and response, enabling constant adaptation and evasion. The risk of false flag operations—particularly employed by Russia, and now increasingly by China—is also rising. These are attacks designed to appear as if they originate from a rival, thereby confusing attribution and heightening tensions.As cyber operations grow more sophisticated, so do the unintended consequences—data leaks, software vulnerabilities, and the spread of malware beyond intended targets. Escalation due to misinterpretation can lead to widespread disruptions. Striking a balance among deterrence, transparency, and escalation management is incredibly difficult. It is more of an art than a science.The outcome of the current operation—let’s call it an endgame in progress—remains unclear. It epitomizes the evolving nature of modern conflict, where the battlefield is digital, but the stakes are tangible. We do not yet know the full extent of the consequences: how much it actually undercut bad actors, weakened their capacities, disrupted their infrastructure, and set them back in meaningful ways.Alternatively, it may not have been as effective as hoped, because these actors could have been preparing for this—transitioning to resilient, flexible infrastructures that can bypass arrests, asset freezes, and system takedowns. Navigating this terrain requires constant alertness, active engagement, a robust legal framework, increased international cooperation, and above all, sustained vigilance.Vigilance seems like the easiest task to maintain, but it is the one most often forgotten. After a major operation, medals are handed out, victories declared—but the work is far from over. A few bad actors may have been removed, but new ones are always ready to emerge.Particularly when it comes to nation-state actors, you might disrupt one network, but as long as the Kremlin exists, as long as Beijing exists, they will recruit and train new hackers—official or unofficial—to continue the mission. Just because someone got arrested or a server was taken offline does not mean the adversary is retreating. Quite the opposite. They adapt and return.So, measuring the ripple effects will take time. Understanding the consequences—both positive and negative—will also take time. And much of it may never be fully revealed to the public.Tsukerman: So we may hear snippets of information here and there, but ultimately, much of it will remain in the shadows—not fully known, even to some of the actors directly engaged in these efforts.Jacobsen: Alright. So these two are sufficiently separate… Well, is that sufficiently gloomy?Tsukerman: Well, the whole thing.Jacobsen: But as we learn more, we can make more precise analyses. It may also seem as though our default state is negativity anyway.Tsukerman: Yes, that is true. As we get more information, the outlook will likely continue to lean negative—but it will seem more legitimate because it will be more detailed, even though nothing may fundamentally change.Jacobsen: Alright. So, you have U.S. President Trump reigniting trade tensions by threatening tariffs on the European Union starting June 1, which will be after this is released. He’s also proposing a 25% levy on iPhones not manufactured in the United States. It shook certain parts of the gold market—primarily U.S. and European stock indexes dropped, the dollar weakened, and gold prices surged.Tsukerman: Trump claimed the tariffs would be lifted if European manufacturing moved stateside. In response, EU officials called for mutual respect and negotiations. Analysts are warning of higher consumer price indexes and supply chain disruptions.Jacobsen: What are your thoughts? Obviously, Apple has been moving—or planning to move—some production to India quite rapidly. How does this affect the whole equation?Tsukerman: Well, now Trump is saying he does not want Apple to move to India either. He’s threatening to impose tariffs if Apple moves to India. He wants them to move completely to the United States—with a 25% penalty if they do not comply. That would be a disaster. Brand-new iPhones could cost $3,000 to $5,000 apiece.Ironically, the skills and infrastructure for that kind of manufacturing exist in India and China—not in the United States. And he does not want to invite those skilled workers here, nor does he want to increase the number of people who can fill those roles.Jacobsen: That’s where someone like Chuck could play a constructive role as an ambassador of sorts, right?Tsukerman: Because he has lived in both worlds. That was actually why he went to India in the first place. But surprise—just as U.S. companies are moving to India and making major investments, Trump comes out and disrupts all of it with these new statements. There’s an inherent tension within his own policy. On the one hand, he wants to make massive deals with India and reduce reliance on China. On the other hand, his absolutist tariff regime and domestic production demands suggest he does not want to rely on foreign nations at all.Jacobsen: Without striking a balance, that’s impossible.Tsukerman: My theory is admittedly a bit cynical. I do not think this is truly about tariffs, or protectionism, or even about moving away from China. I believe it’s about bribes. It is about lobbying. The question is: which companies are ultimately going to offer the largest “contributions” in exchange for tariff relief?There’s a cyclical nature to these threats. Escalation happens, the markets drop, Trump walks it back, the markets rise again—and so on. What happens in between? Trump and his inner circle make money off the volatility. He said so himself, during the beginning of his second term, right before his first speech to Congress: he said he prefers volatility in both governance and markets.Also, lobbying has gone wild on K Street. Even Denmark, which rarely lobbies in Washington, is now participating for the first time in perhaps 50 years. I do not know what the future holds—but it is clear that much of this is about leverage, influence, and transactional politics more than coherent long-term policy.Denmark was never the kind of country that needed lobbying in Washington—until now. Sure, maybe a company like Novo Nordisk had some early lobbying related to Ozempic or other pharmaceutical launches, but beyond that, everyone knows Denmark is not a geopolitical hegemon trying to influence U.S. policy. They simply never needed lobbyists in the traditional sense.And yet, suddenly, even countries like Denmark are hiring lobbyists. So this is no longer about trade policy per se—it is about lobbying. That said, lobbying does have an impact on U.S. trade policy, which, up until the Trump administration, had been one of the engines of American economic strength. Now, it’s under increasing scrutiny for potentially destabilizing global financial systems.We have shifted from being the world’s economic stabilizer to something much more volatile—and that shift happened in a matter of months. The once-celebrated arsenal of carefully calibrated tariffs, export controls, and trade restrictions has become a double-edged sword. These instruments now appear to be unraveling fragile supply chains—supply chains that still have not fully recovered from the combined disruptions of the COVID-19 pandemic and the war in Ukraine.On top of that, the rhetoric around trade has become increasingly geopolitical and less economic. Investor confidence is rattled. Because if no one knows what trade policy is going to look like tomorrow, why would they risk capital today?From what I am hearing, there are still business deals happening, but many of them are in real estate. That is because real estate is largely immune to these particular disruptions. There is always going to be demand, especially as hotels and tourist-dependent properties go bust. Someone will buy them—more likely than not, foreign investors—because domestic investors are losing capital due to the ripple effects of tariffs.So, yes, foreign interest will persist, but outside of real estate, the overall outlook is quite negative.Jacobsen: And that brings us back to the operation endgame, right? That digital background is just one piece of a much larger puzzle—where trade policy functions as both a weapon and a wedge in strategic maneuvering.Tsukerman: Exactly. That is why cybersecurity must go hand in hand with financial policy. You disrupt one, and it affects the other. Trade policy under Trump—what you could call an aggressive recalibration of global trade relations—began during his first term, continued under Biden, and has now escalated significantly.The imposition of tariffs on Chinese goods has never fully been rolled back. Meanwhile, export controls, particularly those targeting China and Russia, have been tightened under the Biden administration—especially with regard to advanced technologies like semiconductors and artificial intelligence.And there’s been a recalibration of trade relations not just with rivals, but with allies too. That aspect—recalibrating trade ties with allies—was more a hallmark of the Trump approach. Washington’s broader moves appear designed to assert dominance in critical sectors. But without a broader economic and diplomatic balance, the message becomes incoherent.Focusing on specific industries might make strategic sense in some contexts. But claiming you’re protecting critical sectors while indiscriminately tariffing nonessential imports—random, low-value goods from China, for instance—undermines your own argument.Rather than appearing as a strategic actor exercising control, the U.S. increasingly looks like a country thrashing about, seeking attention and trying different tactics until something lands. And this carries steep costs beyond optics.A major flashpoint is the tech sector. Export restrictions on China’s semiconductor and AI industries have disrupted established global supply chains worth billions. Companies like TSMC, Intel, and Nvidia are caught in the middle of this geopolitical-economic crossfire. They are being forced to navigate increasingly complex licensing requirements and investment restrictions.You may have heard that Nvidia is now exploring reentry into the Chinese market—despite pressure from the Biden administration to minimize such engagement. It reflects the impossible balancing act that firms are trying to perform under unpredictable, politically charged trade regimes.This not only impacts the bottom lines of major corporations, but also reverberates through global markets that rely on semiconductors—from smartphones to automotive manufacturing, and of course, defense tech, computing, and green technologies. All of these sectors depend on critical minerals that are essential to chip production, and those minerals are largely controlled by China and a few other nations. As a result, trade tensions are sparking retaliatory measures.Beijing’s food protection tariffs are undercutting both its own economy and the American economy. Selective restrictions on U.S. agricultural exports have been especially damaging for American farmers. Now Trump is talking about bailing them out starting in August, which could raise the federal deficit by billions—if not more.This is part of why there is a massive battle in Congress over the debt ceiling, which is now at $5 trillion. If that issue is not resolved by August, we may be facing a default. Exporters are already affected, and this has created political fissures in key swing states. Let’s be honest—China has strategically targeted tariffs at key U.S. industries closely aligned with Trump’s base. That includes specific companies and sectors based in the Rust Belt, agriculture-heavy regions, and what are sometimes called the “flyover states.”Meanwhile, U.S. allies in Europe and Asia are expressing growing unease, confusion, frustration, and distrust. U.S. policy now increasingly prioritizes unilateral leverage—dictating terms rather than engaging in multilateral cooperation. This shift is straining, if not outright damaging, decades-old trade partnerships. I might even say “rupturing” would be a better word than “straining.”The risk is the fragmentation of the global trade architecture, which could usher in a new protectionist era. Not that the old system was perfect, but this would stifle innovation and slow economic growth. In Europe, that would be particularly damaging because innovation there is already constrained by excessive regulation—ranging from environmental and privacy standards to bureaucratic red tape and complex tax codes.Financial markets are reacting accordingly. Trump wanted volatility—well, he got it. Every major trade announcement is now followed by massive market swings. Investor anxiety over escalating trade wars is translating into currency fluctuations and capital flight.Jacobsen: So what does that mean for the U.S. dollar?Tsukerman: It means the dollar is no longer seen as reliably as it once was. When Americans travel abroad, everything becomes more expensive. And beyond tourism, Trump’s aggressive policies are actually helping to legitimize BRICS countries—especially China—in their efforts to push de-dollarization.I do not believe full de-dollarization is imminent, but Trump’s actions do encourage more international trade in non-dollar currencies. That undermines U.S. dollar dominance, which has long been a cornerstone of American economic power. Ironically, Trump favors a weak dollar because of his fixation on trade imbalances. He believes a weak dollar helps exports. But what he does not realize is that a strong dollar benefits everyone—including the United States.Credit rating agencies have not only voiced concern—they have downgraded the U.S. credit rating for the first time in over a century. That is a serious red flag. Historically, the U.S. raised its debt ceiling without consequence, and credit agencies looked the other way. Why? Because the economy was stable, trade was reliable, and downturns were seen as temporary.Now, none of that can be assumed. The economy is shrinking, despite early growth projections under Biden. It could have continued on a stable trajectory—even under Trump—if he had simply left well enough alone. But instead, we are staring down the barrel of a recession. Possibly something worse.So, a combination of rapidly growing debt and the threat of a recession means a potential for default—or at the very least, unreliable economic projections. That is precisely why the U.S. credit rating was downgraded. This, of course, undermines investor confidence, which means the influx of foreign capital into the U.S. is unlikely to continue at previous levels. That only exacerbates the problems I mentioned earlier.When investors are not only refraining from contributing but actively fleeing for greener pastures, it becomes far more difficult to raise the debt ceiling, pay off existing debt, or guarantee the bonds being sold to cover the deficit. That makes everything worse.Essentially, these credit rating agencies are asking a fundamental question: are current U.S. fiscal and trade policies even sustainable?They are warning that persistent trade deficits—self-inflicted, by the way—combined with rising geopolitical tensions could significantly undermine the U.S. dollar’s reserve currency status. That means the dollar could become so unreliable that other countries might no longer feel compelled to peg their currencies to it. That would be a disaster.Cryptocurrency is not a full answer. It might be a partial solution for certain individuals or sectors, but not on a global scale—not yet, and certainly not for everyone at the same time.This all feeds into a much broader concern: the potential for a financial domino effect. Trade disruptions could trigger capital retrenchment from emerging markets, destabilizing currencies, shaking debt markets, and reducing global opportunities for trade expansion and economic growth.If emerging markets contract, they are no longer emerging—they stagnate or fail before they even develop. In that scenario, there are fewer safe havens or growth opportunities for global investors. It becomes a vicious cycle.Behind the scenes, lobbying and political pressure are further complicating the picture. Lobbyists are making a fortune right now. Every day, I hear about a new firm opening a D.C. office. Powerful industry groups and multinational corporations are being pulled in contradictory directions.Some are lobbying for open markets and trade liberalization to maximize growth. Others are advocating, somewhat paradoxically, for protectionism to guard intellectual property and national security interests.It may seem like some industries benefit from this, especially those deemed “critical” to national interests. But in the long term, they will not benefit either. If the broader economy collapses, those sectors may receive bailouts—but not at the same cost as functioning in a healthy, competitive, privatized marketplace.Jacobsen: So politicians are essentially stuck balancing deeply conflicting interests.Tsukerman: Exactly. They’re trying to weigh economic growth, national security, public pressure, and long-term viability all at once. And that raises a critical set of questions.To what extent are these trade restrictions actually effective in curbing China’s technological rise? Arguably, not much. Despite the sanctions and export controls, China continues to make significant progress in developing domestic production of increasingly advanced AI chips and other technologies.So, the strategic effectiveness of these measures remains debatable.They are also effectively deterring the U.S. from being as competitive by dominating the global rare earth minerals market. On top of that, their proficiency in industrial espionage—there’s really no better term—allows them to acquire critical components and technological plans despite trade restrictions. So, in practice, they are circumventing many of these limitations while boosting their presence in alternative markets.They were prepared for this trade war, dating all the way back to Trump’s first term. Since then, China has significantly diversified its economy by investing in Asia-Pacific countries and reducing its dependency on Western markets.Jacobsen: But are the economic costs worth the geopolitical gains?Tsukerman: Gains? What gains? The U.S. is becoming increasingly isolated. Europe is turning inward, especially when it comes to defense systems. This whole approach is stifling innovation and disrupting global supply chains.Just look at the facts: several major companies—including two automotive giants—have moved operations out of the United States. That is clearly not beneficial to the American economy.Jacobsen: So how resilient are U.S. allies to the collateral damage of Washington’s trade realignment?Tsukerman: That really depends on the country. Take Vietnam, for instance. They’re not particularly resilient, so they’ve tried to curry favor with Trump—offering to adopt Starlink and reportedly granting a Trump Tower development opportunity in exchange for tariff relief. Whether that will be enough—or just the first of many demands—remains to be seen.Other countries are walking away from negotiations entirely because the demands from the U.S. side are vague or seem arbitrary. Japan is one such case. They couldn’t figure out what the U.S. negotiation team actually wanted in terms of tariff terms, so they exited the talks. It’s almost comical—if it weren’t so serious.Jacobsen: So is there a looming risk that these overzealous policies could trigger unintended consequences, similar to the 2008 financial crisis—but with more complex international dimensions?Tsukerman: Arguably, yes. We are already moving in that direction. Of course, there are a range of scenario forecasts, and much depends on whether Trump maintains a consistent tariff framework.In the best-case scenario, targeted trade measures would be paired with renewed diplomatic efforts. That could result in a more stable form of managed competition—addressing real security concerns while preserving global market stability. Ideally, multilateral institutions would adapt, becoming more resilient and helping to mitigate economic fragmentation.But the more pessimistic—and frankly, more likely—scenario involves spiraling trade conflicts morphing into full-scale economic decoupling. Even in that worst-case path, it will take time, but the consequences would be enormous: fractured global supply chains, inflationary shocks, and severe damage to the U.S. dollar’s standing as the world’s reserve currency. And these trends are not theoretical—they are already visible.The fallout will not be contained within national borders. It will ripple across emerging markets, especially those heavily reliant on U.S. trade and investment. What we are witnessing is a precarious intersection of economic strategy and geopolitical ambition.While pursuing technological and strategic supremacy is a legitimate goal, it carries immense risks. Those risks require careful and sustained management. Otherwise, we may end up undermining the very global stability we claim to protect.Unfortunately, Trump is acting like a bull in a China shop—completely ignoring the broader consequences. And in doing so, he is achieving the opposite of what his administration claims to want.He is not isolating China by collaborating with a network of allies to impose consistent, coordinated measures that could restrict China’s foothold in key industries. He is doing the exact opposite. He is waging a trade war against the entire world, while China has taken full advantage of Trump’s erratic market behavior. They’ve recalibrated back to their original standards and continue to benefit from more stable markets in the Asia-Pacific region.Jacobsen: So who’s winning here?Tsukerman: Certainly not the United States.Jacobsen: Final question. Fitch Ratings affirmed the long-term foreign currency sovereign credit rating for Ukraine at “restricted default.” This continues to reflect strain on the nation’s finances, primarily due to the prolonged conflict with the Russian Federation. While there have been efforts to secure international support and build the economy, Ukraine continues to face revenue shortfalls and rising debt servicing costs. Any thoughts?Tsukerman: Yes. There is no sugarcoating it—Ukraine is in a precarious financial position.Part of the issue is that Western donors have overwhelmingly prioritized military aid and a minimal amount of urgent medical assistance, while largely neglecting financial investment. It is understandably difficult to invest in reconstruction or long-term infrastructure when there is still an active war, when the domestic political situation is chaotic, and when large parts of the country remain occupied.Ukraine cannot easily access many of its natural resources or key economic sectors. All of these factors create a fundamentally unstable environment. And let’s be clear—this economic strain is not just the result of the last three years of full-scale invasion. It stems from nearly a decade of partial occupation and hybrid warfare, all of which has taken a major toll on the country’s finances.Even in liberated areas, reconstruction remains an enormous challenge. The “restricted default” classification is technically nuanced, but it carries real consequences: it affects borrowing costs, investor confidence, and overall economic resilience. Ukraine is walking a tightrope between survival and recovery.In practical terms, what the “restricted default” rating means is that Ukraine has either missed a debt payment or has restructured its debt under terms that do not meet standard expectations from creditors—but it has not entered full-scale default. This is similar to what happened with Argentina not too long ago.It reflects a complex negotiation process between Ukraine, bondholders, multilateral lenders, and domestic stakeholders. It is a compromise—Ukraine essentially fought to ensure it would not be viewed as a fully defaulting debtor. But the heavy debt burden—exacerbated by military spending and massive infrastructure destruction—has limited its fiscal flexibility and complicated access to international capital markets.Ironically, none of this is Ukraine’s fault. Yet, it is being punished through credit downgrades and restricted access to funding, making it even harder to pay off its debt.Jacobsen: So where can Ukraine turn for the funds it needs?Tsukerman: If it cannot access international capital markets, options are extremely limited. Its key creditors include Western governments, international institutions such as the IMF, and private investors holding Eurobonds. Ukraine’s debt restructuring has focused on extending maturities and lowering interest burdens, but responses have been mixed.You cannot entirely blame the creditors—they fear throwing money into a bottomless pit. Some bondholders are frustrated by delayed payments and worry that Ukraine’s economic model depends too heavily on continued donor support instead of sustainable internal reforms.And hovering over all of this is persistent geopolitical risk from Russia’s ongoing aggression. That risk affects every projection and every financial decision related to Ukraine’s recovery. It is what it is. This is a legitimate risk. The war is not only draining public resources, but also deterring investment, disrupting trade routes, and increasing inflationary pressures.Cities like Mariupol and Kharkiv—the city I’m from, by the way—have suffered massive infrastructure devastation. I was there. It was a great city. But now it’s wrecked. They’ve started reconstructing parts of it, only for them to be hit again. The repeated attacks make any rebuilding effort extremely costly—and incredibly fragile. Every time you build something up, it gets blown up again. The costs are cumulative and crushing.Domestically, the government’s reform agenda—including anti-corruption initiatives, judicial independence, and greater transparency—is facing delays and political resistance. Nobody who’s already entrenched in corruption wants to see that system dismantled, right? This resistance undermines credibility with international partners.These internal governance challenges compound the external financial risks, making Ukraine’s credit rating even more volatile. There are real concerns about the government’s ability to maintain fiscal discipline during wartime. How realistic are their economic growth projections?President Zelensky has made the most optimistic case possible—and understandably so. He needs continued funding. But strictly speaking, given the scale of the challenges, is the best-case scenario even remotely realistic? Can reforms be accelerated to meet lenders’ expectations? And what is the likelihood of donor fatigue, especially as Western countries face their own economic pressures?In Europe, those pressures are quite significant. In the U.S., they are largely self-inflicted—but now also mounting. The U.S. has shifted away from a comprehensive aid model, allowing Ukraine to purchase weapons but not contributing significantly on a governmental level beyond that.Jacobsen: And how much do political changes in the U.S. and EU affect future aid?Tsukerman: Quite a lot. In the U.S., we already know that congressional dynamics are shifting. Congress is expected to turn blue next year, but depending on the size of the majority, they may still be unable to override a Trump veto on future aid packages—even if authorized by Congress.In Europe, we’re seeing some positive trends: pro-Russian politicians are losing ground in many countries—except the UK. But it’s too early to celebrate. Hungary, for example, won’t face elections until next year, and in the meantime, it remains a spoiler on several key issues, including aid to Ukraine.There are possible paths forward. In the most optimistic scenario, Ukraine successfully implements key reforms, receives sustained Western financial and military support, and gradually stabilizes both economically and territorially. This would allow Ukraine to improve debt servicing and recover its credit ratings over time. Such a scenario would also require a diplomatic breakthrough—an end to hostilities—and secured reconstruction funding.As I said, that is the optimistic scenario. It is unlikely to happen in full, but perhaps elements of it can be realized.Conversely, the more grim scenario involves prolonged conflict, escalating destruction, and shrinking donor appetite. This would push Ukraine toward full default or financial collapse. Unfortunately, that seems far more likely at the moment.Yes, European countries are increasing their military and general aid. But it is still nowhere near enough to address Ukraine’s full financial needs. If the situation deteriorates further, we risk triggering contagion effects across other emerging markets and deepening instability across the region.In other words, the consequences of this crisis could spill over into nearby European countries—not just affect Ukraine directly. The most plausible middle-ground scenario between the best and worst outcomes might involve cyclical bursts of aid and incremental reform—just enough to keep Ukraine afloat, but still in a fragile state. This would be highly sensitive to shocks from military setbacks or political instability and would require constant recalibration of fiscal and diplomatic strategies.This scenario is likely—but only if everyone involved gets their act together. And by “everyone,” I mean the Western world—excluding the United States, which, at this point, cannot be reliably counted on.That will require a lot of hard work. I’m not entirely sure where Europe stands on this. The “coalition of the willing” has not yet fully solidified. There’s been plenty of talk about internal security, defense reform, and regional coordination. But when it comes to Ukraine specifically, I have not yet seen the level of financial commitment required to make this middle scenario sustainable. The resources are there—it is not a matter of capacity. It is a matter of political will.So, while this is technically an economic issue, it is also a reflection of the larger challenges of war governance and international diplomacy. Managing this deeply complex nexus of financial, political, and military demands requires sophisticated, multi-front balancing. Without it, the region plunges deeper into crisis. So far, Ukraine has managed. But the challenges are real.
Tsukerman: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Irina.Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/04
Jason Robinovitz, Chief Operating Officer and General Counsel of SCORE at the Top Learning Centers, SCORE Academy, and JRA Educational Consulting, transitioned from a successful law career to education leadership after a personal loss prompted reflection. Over sixteen years, he helped grow SCORE’s revenue by 500%, emphasizing individualized student learning, ethical practices, and strategic delegation. Robinovitz guides pre-law students, manages over 100 educators, and integrates technology thoughtfully to enhance education without losing personal connection. His future goals include opening 8–12 new schools with mission-driven investors. His leadership philosophy focuses on incremental improvements, customer-first service, and balancing nurturance with guidance.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Jason Robinovitz. He serves as SCORE’s Chief Operating Officer and General Counsel at the Top Learning Centers, SCORE Academy, and JRA Educational Consulting. Over the past sixteen years, he has played a pivotal role in expanding the organization, achieving a 500% revenue increase. He oversees the daily operations of multiple centers, manages a team of approximately 100 educators, and is responsible for strategic decision-making in customer service, staffing, training, marketing, and technology. Jason’s legal expertise has been instrumental in managing major business negotiations, including multimillion-dollar leases.
He is actively involved in educational consulting, specializing in guiding pre-law and future law students through the application process and helping families find appropriate therapeutic placements for their children. He is a member of several professional associations, including the Independent Educational Consultants Association (IECA), the National Association for College Admission Counseling (NACAC), the Secondary School Admission Test Board (SSATB), and he is a founding member of the National Test Prep Association (NTPA). He is also the son of Judy Robinovitz, the founder of SCORE at the Top Learning Centers.
Jason holds a Bachelor of Science in Business Administration (BSBA) with concentrations in Finance, Real Estate, and Leadership from the University of Denver. He earned his law degree from Emory University School of Law, where he focused on Business and Corporate Law. Before joining the family business, he practiced medical malpractice law for five years.
Thank you very much for joining me today. I appreciate it.
Jason Robinovitz: It is my pleasure. Thank you for having me.
Jacobsen: A natural question when someone makes a major career transition is: Why the change? What inspired you to move from practicing law to leading SCORE at the Top and working in educational consulting?
Robinovitz: I had been practicing law for about five years at a prominent personal injury law firm in Fort Lauderdale. Tragically, a friend of mine, with whom I had studied for the bar exam, died in a car accident. That loss prompted deep reflection, and I concluded I was unhappy. I did not enjoy my job. It did not bring joy, meaning, or fulfillment to my life. A week later, I quit and took a couple of months off to reflect.
Fortunately, I had savings that allowed me to take that time. During this period, my parents had scheduled their first major international vacation — a three-week trip to China. My father asked me to go to the office of SCORE at the Top several times a week to pick up the checks and manually run payroll, as everything was still done by hand. I agreed, and while doing it, I realized I enjoyed being involved in the business.
I had always known that I would eventually join the family business. After spending some time helping out at SCORE at the Top, I decided the time had come to transition fully into the business and work alongside my family.
I made it a permanent role and have been there ever since. Now, I love it. I get to do something meaningful — working with kids, inspiring them, helping them reach the next step in their education, and impacting their lives.
Jacobsen: How is the assistance for pre-law students, particularly in finding the right fit? Is there a different approach to that?
Robinovitz: I have the expertise and background. I am an attorney, so it certainly helps when speaking to students considering law school to help them figure out whether or not it is the right decision for them. Then, it becomes a matter of finding out what they want: where they want to be after they graduate, whether they are looking to practice in a specific state or pursue a specific type of law. Do they not know yet what they want to do? Where are they qualified to get into — whether it is the Top of the top schools or a more typical law school? I help them navigate all that and then guide them through the application process.
Jacobsen: Now, when you have a team of over 100 educators, how do you delegate? How do you strategize how you train, mentor, and assign tasks?
Robinovitz: Thankfully, I have a phenomenal leadership team. It is not just me. We have multiple locations. Each location has its own Head of School. Many places also have someone who oversees the Learning Center — all the tutoring and test prep. Then, I have a team that handles all of our consultations, matching clients to the right consultant on my staff.
I believe in hiring smart people, showing them what needs to be done, and then letting them figure out the most efficient and effective way. That management style has worked very well for me. Of course, we have made some missteps and hired the wrong people along the way, but it has worked out very well. My team right now is fantastic. I trust them implicitly. I do not micromanage them.
At this point, I function more as their problem-solver. When they encounter an issue or uncertainty, I help them work through the problem and find the best solution. My staff then manages their teams beneath them. Naturally, I also have relationships with many of those team members, but my department heads are the primary points of contact with the teachers and educators.
Jacobsen: Do you see leadership, in that sense, as not about how many decisions you make but about making a smaller number of high-quality choices that can then be delegated?
Robinovitz: Absolutely. I try to focus my time on the bigger questions — the company’s long-term growth. I do much long-term thinking. When problems arise, I work with the person responsible to help them find a solution. Or, if they bring a problem to me, I help them work through it.
Between myself and whoever I am speaking with, we usually reach the right solution by discussing it, asking good questions, and making thoughtful suggestions. Ultimately, it is always best if the person who has to live with the decision makes the final call. I rarely say, “Do not do that,” unless I am absolutely certain it is a no. No. That absolutely cannot happen. We usually come to a decision together.
Jacobsen: I have been thinking recently about balancing guidance and nurturance in education and leadership. How do you balance nurturance and guidance in your leadership style? Does personalized education reflect that same balance?
Robinovitz: There is a delicate balance between nurturing and guiding. How I manage my team ties directly to our company’s core tenets, which are built on individualization and customization. How I approach someone on my team and discuss something with them can be very different from how I approach someone else. Understanding their motivations, what drives them, and what is essential to them impacts how I communicate so that we can be effective.
There are some people with whom I need to be very direct and others with whom I need to be more subtle or diplomatic to make sure the message lands and sinks in. We take that same approach in our schools and learning centers. We meet every student where they are and work with them from there. We are not a McDonald’s — we are not a one-size-fits-all operation with a rigid procedure for every student. We take each student for who they are, understand their strengths, weaknesses, fears, and aspirations, and tailor everything around them so they are in the best possible position to learn.
Jacobsen: When you are achieving a 500% revenue growth over sixteen years, that can be framed as compounded success. It is less just a financial metric — though that is, of course, important — and more about understanding the business, knowing the needs of the customers or clientele, and systematically addressing those needs with the long term in mind. How do you achieve that?
Robinovitz: I am a big believer in putting the customer first. We have always focused on customer satisfaction and service, and on making incremental improvements yearly. Every year, we ask ourselves, “What can we do better? What can we improve upon?” and make those small changes.
You cannot change everything at once—Rome was not built in a day. But by being hands-on with our customers and consistently evaluating and refining what we do, we have grown. I am also a big believer in honesty.
One of the things I always tell my leadership team is that if somebody comes in wanting something, and what they want is not the right thing for them, we need to educate them, not just give them what they want, but give them what they need.
For example, if a student came into our school wanting a one-on-one educational setting but was on the severe end of the autism spectrum, an unscrupulous school might say, “Sure, we will take them,” and try to get as much tuition as possible. We would not do that. We would say, “This might not be the right place for you for these reasons: we do not have the proper professionals in place, our staff is not specifically trained to work with a student at that level,” and so on. Then, we recommend other schools that are better equipped to meet that student’s needs.
Similarly, if a student is not a good social fit for our environment, we will be honest about that, too. I do not want a student here who will not thrive, and I do not want a parent who will be unhappy with what we are doing. A reputation takes a lifetime to build and only a day to tear down.
Jacobsen: Please give us an idea of the range of student capabilities you see. You have decades of collective experience — in this case, sixteen years — and many students. Some will be comprehensively excellent — outstanding in their abilities, motivation, focus, discipline, and attitude — and others will naturally be the reverse. It is a Gaussian curve. What is the range of capabilities and capacities for those coming to you? How does that look realistically to give us a sense?
Robinovitz: In many ways, we look like any other mainstream school, just on a much smaller scale. We have our high achievers. We have sent several students to the Ivy League and other ultra-selective schools.
At the same time, I would not want to categorize any students as “low achievers.” We have students who struggle more academically, and we work to help them find their next step — whether that next step is a community college, a state college, the military, entering the workforce directly, or even taking more time to figure things out. Some will go on to traditional four-year colleges. We meet each student where they are and nurture them to the best of our ability.
We see the full range of students—those who are incredibly high-achieving and intrinsically motivated, and others who struggle with engagement or direction, despite having access to ample resources. In many cases, these students haven’t thrived in traditional environments with large class sizes and standardized expectations. What they need is a setting where they’re seen, heard, and supported as individuals. By creating highly personalized learning environments, we help them reconnect with their goals, rediscover a sense of purpose, and build confidence in their own abilities.
Our largest classes serve six students. It might go up to eight students for an art class, but essentially, we keep the groups small. You can tailor the experience — for example, a student who struggles in math and science can take those subjects one-on-one while doing English, history, and foreign language in a small group setting.
What we have seen is that kids today are craving attention. We live in an attention economy, and attention is constantly being pulled in a million different directions — usually toward phones and the ten apps that command attention: text messaging, Snapchat, Facebook, Instagram, TikTok, YouTube, and so on. It is so easy to get lost in that.
You cannot get lost in our classrooms because they are so small. We can see everything. We can say, “Hey, Scott, I see you are not paying attention. Put your phone away. You are not supposed to have it out in class anyway.”
Jacobsen: What about the integration of technology for enhanced student learning? How can this be done right, and how can it be done wrong regarding the end goal of student development?
Robinovitz: I love technology. I am a technophile — a technology nerd. I am very into all of that stuff. But while I am into it, I am also very cognizant that technology can often be a distraction rather than an enhancement.
When we implement technology, we try to do it thoughtfully, maximizing student attention and minimizing distractions. If that cannot be done effectively, we will go back to more old-fashioned methods. The way I learned—and likely the way you learned—worked out pretty well. Sometimes, the oldest ways are the best ways, and other times, you supplement traditional methods with thoughtful, carefully chosen technological tools.
Jacobsen: This brings up a common point about education systems: there are fads. Sometimes, ideas catch fire and become viral in social media terms, and later evidence shows they might not be as substantial as initially believed — they were overhyped. What are some things that might be fads coming down the pipeline or are currently on the rise? And what are some that show genuine promise regarding newer adaptations, especially as we incorporate digital technology into education?
Robinovitz: A lot of the EdTech out there is faddish. Going back to the idea of technology, many people believe that technology can replace certain elements of education. I do not think that — at least, not broadly.
We can replace certain things with technology, but people often want to apply it to much more than is practical, mainly because if you can build a system that runs itself, it becomes a perpetual money machine. That incentive can lead to overextending technology’s role, where it really should not replace human interaction, personalization, and thoughtful teaching.
A ton of money from venture capitalists, private equity firms, and others is going into many different EdTech initiatives. I have seen a lot of it. It looks great — they put on a great show and sell you on why it works. But in practice, it is often not as great as it seems.
We will see things stick with AI. AI is not going anywhere. The biggest challenge that every school is facing now—and certainly will face in the future—is how to train students in the ethical use of AI. Students must understand that learning a subject well and then using AI to enhance their work becomes a powerful tool. But they will never be as strong if they rely solely on AI without understanding the subject matter.
In scenario A, two things work together: human understanding and AI enhancement. In scenario B, you only have AI, and at the end of the day, it is only as good as the AI itself. Now, superintelligence may come—and will come—it is just a matter of when. But even then, I believe the human brain is highly adaptable, and we will find ways to continue innovating.
At one point, when machinery first came out, people thought manual labour would disappear. Instead, it increased productivity, and people found new things to do. So, I am not a doomsday person when it comes to AI. But it is still something we have to be careful with.
Jacobsen: What is your advice for educational entrepreneurs regarding legal considerations when expanding their business?
Robinovitz: That makes sense. The most significant issues are compliance with FERPA (the Family Educational Rights and Privacy Act) and state and local regulations.
If you are an attorney running an educational business, you must also be aware of additional duties and ethical responsibilities that may be imputed to you because of your status as an attorney. That is something you always have to be cognizant of.
One thing I’m always careful about — given my legal background — is maintaining a clear boundary between offering general insights and engaging in legal practice. Within our business, I don’t give legal advice to clients or families. If legal issues arise in conversation, I always advise them to consult their own counsel. It’s important to avoid any confusion about the nature of the relationship or the source of advice. That clarity protects everyone involved..
Otherwise, the primary concern is regulatory compliance within the industry, ensuring you are fully compliant. FERPA is probably the most important regulation to keep in mind. It deals with student privacy and student records, and it is crucial to protect those records.
Jacobsen: Regarding primary goals for SCORE at the Top and JRA Educational Consulting, what are your aims for the next five years? And how do you plan to achieve those goals in a targeted way?
Robinovitz: Over the next five years, I aim to open between eight and twelve new schools — some in Florida and others probably outside the state. I plan to do this by raising outside capital from individual investors who are genuinely concerned about the state of education and want to contribute to something meaningful. The goal isn’t just maximizing returns, it’s about aligning with people who believe in our mission and want to help us expand our impact. But just to be clear, this conversation is purely informational; it’s not an offer to sell securities.
The idea is not necessarily that every dollar invested must maximize returns, although that would be great. Instead, I want to raise funds from people who believe in our mission, vision, and model and want to expand it to reach more students nationwide.
Jacobsen: Jason, thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate your expertise, and it was a pleasure to meet you.
Robinovitz: Thank you, Scott. Thank you so much.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/03
Leena Weaver and Traci Glover, child mental health experts behind Healing Children, LLC. Drawing on over fifty years of combined experience, they explain how foundational developmental needs—such as emotional regulation, trust, and safe relationships—are increasingly disrupted by technology and trauma. The COVID-19 pandemic and excessive screen time have caused a two-year emotional lag in many children. Weaver and Glover emphasize balancing empathy with accountability, using trauma-informed, developmentally appropriate strategies. Their Healing Environment framework helps children progress through stalled stages of emotional growth, fostering resilience and maturity through consistent boundaries, adult attunement, and meaningful relational support.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are joined by Leena Weaver and Traci Glover, seasoned child mental health professionals with over fifty years of combined experience as school psychologists and counselors. Their organization, Healing Children, LLC, supports children’s emotional, behavioural, and psychological well-being.
They promote children’s mental health by offering practical tools rooted in neuroscience and trauma-informed care. Their Healing Environment framework emphasizes relationships, boundaries, empathy, and adult self-regulation to build resilience and foster healthy development. Leena and Traci are dedicated to equipping parents and educators with practical strategies for supporting children facing trauma, entitlement, and emotional dysregulation. Their expertise is shared through their blogs, podcasts, and professional consultation services.
Thank you so much for joining me today—I truly appreciate it. Drawing on your decades of school experience, what are children’s perennial, fundamental needs? And, with the rise of social media and the Internet, are there any newer needs that must be addressed—either by adding new supports or limiting specific influences?
Leena Weaver: Let’s take the first one and return to the second. Does that sound good? So, what do children need at a foundational level?
One key thing we emphasize with both children and educators is a developmental lens. We often reference models like Erik Erikson’s stages of psychosocial development and other frameworks that describe how children build a sense of self and social-emotional maturity over time.
For example, children need to develop basic trust in their caregivers in infancy. This depends on consistent, nurturing care that meets physical and emotional needs. That early sense of security becomes the foundation for all later development.
As they move into toddlerhood and early childhood, children explore independence and learn about boundaries, emotional regulation, and develop cause and effect thinking. They start to recognize that while they are loved and valued, there are limits that keep them safe. These lessons are taught through relationships with emotionally attuned adults who model self-regulation and enforce boundaries calmly and consistently.
By the time they reach school age, children should ideally have experienced enough stability and attunement to view the world as a safe and predictable place where adults are trustworthy, and emotions can be named, understood, and managed. This foundation supports the development of resilience, self-control, and social competence.
In short, children need:
- Emotionally available caregivers
- Predictable and safe environments
- Clear, compassionate boundaries
- Adults who model and teach emotional regulation
- Developmentally appropriate expectations
All of this lays the groundwork for healthy development in both school and life.
These are the boundaries: we’re consistent with our follow-through. We have fun with our children. We spend time with them—that whole relational piece. And that relational piece also supports learning how to build relationships with peers.
It helps with language development, supports delayed gratification, and teaches one to wait for things. All of those are critical skills. Now, if you talk about technology entering parenting, these are the areas where we’re seeing concerns. One, kids are not having as many face-to-face interactions.
Children are not making eye contact with their parents because the parents are often on their devices. Eye contact is critical—for dopamine release which is the chemical that aids in bonding. That back-and-forth in relationships, the give-and-take, is missing. With video games, for instance, it’s all instant gratification. You don’t have to share. You don’t have to take turns.
Scott: Keep going, Leena. You’re doing great. But I’ll add that we also see parents and kids on their devices, which means they’re not interacting with each other or peers.
Weaver: Exactly. And without those peer interactions, kids are not learning essential social skills like compromise, cooperation, and working through conflict.
One of the things we’re seeing in schools with the increased use of technology is that kids—even those coming into kindergarten—do not know how to play with other children. They don’t know how to share or wait their turn.
Their emotional regulation is so underdeveloped that classrooms are being disrupted by extreme temper tantrums—outbursts that, developmentally, they should have been supported through at age two. At that age, with attuned parenting, children typically learn emotional regulation, how to accept the word “no,” and how to follow the rules with growing independence.
When we discuss teenagers and social media, we see even more issues. Teenagers are naturally supposed to take healthy risks—it is part of their developmental role.
Teens grow by taking risks—asking someone out on a date, trying out for a team, joining a play, pursuing an art competition, etc. —and these are all healthy risks. We want to encourage those.
What we want to discourage are unhealthy risks—like substance use or unsafe sexual behaviour. Those can be damaging. However, the overuse of technology and social media can lead kids to withdraw from real-world experiences that teach courage, social skills, and emotional resilience.
What we’re finding with social media is that kids are not getting together in person as much as they used to. It’s more screen time and less face-to-face interaction. They’re not taking the healthy social risks that naturally come with in-person conversations—like speaking spontaneously without being able to type it out, delete it, and rephrase it.
Because so much of communication now is filtered and edited, it removes those opportunities for social growth and confidence-building.
Kids are more hesitant to take healthy risks because everything can be recorded or captured in a photo or video. They fear that anything they do or say could be widely shared or used against them. So, the psychological cost of social interaction has increased.
That’s why, as parents, it’s essential to understand what our kids need emotionally in those early years—to help them build emotional regulation, trust, and a sense of safety. They need to experience healthy parental authority and learn what it means to do what is asked within age-appropriate boundaries. This sets them up to establish healthy boundaries with others later on.
And it starts with the basics: less screen time and more play. Parents must spend real time with their children—playing games, engaging in turn-taking and sharing, and building that relational foundation. That’s where social skills are learned.
Parents must have honest conversations about healthy technology use in the teenage years. I’m reading a book called Boundaries, written by a psychologists Drs. Henry Cloud and John Townsend. It includes an entire chapter on setting healthy boundaries with technology for adults and children.
It’s about teaching kids how to use technology as a tool for connection rather than disconnection. When tech is used to avoid uncomfortable situations or emotions, or as a substitute for authentic interaction, it often leads to more loneliness rather than less.
We’re seeing a rise in suicidal ideation, even among young children. When something goes wrong—social rejection, academic failure, or conflict—they sometimes go straight to the thought: “My life is over.” They lack the emotional skills to ride those waves.
Yes. They don’t realize that those are normal ups and downs of life. Social media portrays everything as perfect—everyone’s smiling, hands in the air, having a great time. So when they experience pain, they think something is wrong with them rather than understanding it as part of the human experience.
Jacobsen: So, if we’re looking at these developmental stages, and we’re seeing increased emotional dysregulation in children—impacting classroom environments—then this is not just an emotional concern, but an educational one. If a child is having a major outburst in the classroom, the entire class can lose a day of learning. That’s not just correlated—it’s directly connected to how much emotional development kids miss.
Especially in North America, where many of these apps, algorithms, and devices were adopted early and widely. How much emotional development are kids losing in these environments? And how much education are we losing simply because students cannot learn due to frequent emotional crises in class?
So how much emotional development are we losing—and then, how much education are we losing—in the children who are especially behind in emotional maturity?
Traci Glover: That’s such an interesting question.
Weaver: Children are about two years behind developmentally. And when you talk with teachers—and even in our work doing training with educators—that’s a consistent observation. I did a book study with my teachers, and the consensus was that kids are around two years behind, both academically and emotionally, but especially emotionally.
And that emotional delay has a direct impact on academics. You see five-year-olds acting like three-year-olds and fifth-graders behaving like third-graders. So, instead of fifth graders developing mature peer relationships and resolving conflicts, they’re still tattling, struggling to solve social problems, and lacking the self-regulation expected at that age.
From what we see in classrooms—and in the data we gather in our practice—there’s a strong pattern of emotional delay.
Some of that, of course, is due to COVID, but during the pandemic, most children were also immersed in electronic devices rather than social environments. That lack of real-world interaction stalled their emotional growth.
Academically, the picture is more complicated. COVID disrupted formal education in significant ways. We clearly lost several academic years depending on the age group and access to consistent learning. However, emotional development is a strong predictor of academic recovery.
Children with strong emotional regulation tend to have better frustration tolerance—they understand that learning involves effort and discomfort. They can work through setbacks and persevere. Those are the kids who tend to make better academic gains.
Glover: By contrast, in our emotionally disturbed programs, we often see kids who are two to three years behind academically because their emotional dysregulation disrupts their ability to engage in learning at all.
Many of those children have Individualized Education Plans (IEPs) and are classified as having emotional or behavioural disabilities. Some are placed in special programs, while others remain in general education with support.
What we found in one of our internal studies was that many of these kids had experienced trauma, and emotionally, they were stuck at the age when the trauma occurred. So you might have a 10-year-old who, emotionally, is functioning like a two-year-old. That’s the kind of behaviour we’re dealing with.
Weaver: If you zoom out, though, and look across the board—even outside special programs—you’ll see this same two-year developmental lag in most children, especially in schools that rely heavily on technology-based teaching post-COVID.
Jacobsen: So there are nuances in how that developmental gap appears—but you’re suggesting what amounts to a kind of flat emotional tariff—pardon the metaphor—a steady two-year lag across age levels?
And from what you’re saying, that gap starts early and… stays there. So, that raises the following question: at what point does this developmental “freezing” happen?
So, when you say a five-year-old is functioning like a three-year-old, and they’ve lost those two years—does that developmental lag stay unless it’s addressed? Or are there conditions under which kids can catch up?
Glover: Oh yes. Kids can catch up. Emotional development is highly responsive to the right interventions.
It starts with understanding development. You would think that, as educators, we’d all be great at applying developmental psychology—but in practice, we often forget. We teach it in our undergraduate and graduate programs, then enter the world of work and sometimes stop applying it as actively as we should.
Erik Erikson was clear: We all must move through each psychosocial stage. At every stage, we’re supposed to learn something important—we’re meant to develop a key skill or sense of self—and only then do we move on to the next stage.
If we don’t have supportive, caring adults around us—and if we don’t experience appropriate boundaries when we act out or engage in unhealthy behaviours—we stay stuck at that stage. We don’t move forward developmentally until the right supports are in place.
You can see this in adulthood, too. Leena and I have done exercises in our classes where we look at before-and-after interviews of celebrities who went through addiction and recovery. When you watch them during active addiction and then again in sobriety, it’s like watching two different people. There’s real developmental change.
That’s because substance abuse often freezes emotional development at the point when drug use begins. So if someone started using at age 15, they might still be emotionally functioning at that level—even into their 30s—until they start moving through those stages again in recovery.
So yes—people can progress, and they do every day. But if they don’t have boundaries around inappropriate behaviour, and they’re not receiving appropriate support, they’re unlikely to move forward developmentally.
That’s what we see in many of the children we work with—particularly those in emotionally disturbed programs or those receiving intensive behavioural support in schools. They are often developmentally stuck—emotionally operating well below their age.
But once they start receiving the appropriate boundaries and consistent support, you begin to see them move forward—they start progressing through Erikson’s stages again. You really can get stuck at any stage.
Weaver: For example, Erikson’s first stage is Trust vs. Mistrust, which is infancy. The core task is learning whether the world is safe and whether caregivers are reliable. If children don’t develop trust, they remain in mistrust, and their behaviours reflect that.
If I don’t trust the world or the people around me, I feel I have to protect myself—which might mean I lie, steal, or cheat. I’m operating from a mindset of “no one’s going to meet my needs but me.”
But if I learn to trust my caregiver, I move into the next stage: Autonomy vs. Shame and Doubt. That’s toddlerhood. I start learning to care for myself a little—like toileting, choosing clothes, saying “no.” I began to understand that I was separate from my parents.
If autonomy develops within healthy boundaries, the child moves into Initiative vs. Doubt. That’s preschool age. Then later, around school age, it’s Industry vs. Inferiority. At that stage, the child should develop a sense of competence—that they can do things and succeed in the world.
But if they don’t reach that sense of industry, they can feel inferior—and then apathy starts to take hold. They stop trying. They give up. They disengage.
Erikson’s stages cover the lifespan—from birth until death. And yes, a person can get stuck at any stage.
We see it all the time. For example, we have children stuck on Trust vs. Mistrust and others stuck on Autonomy vs. Shame and Doubt.
You also see adults stuck in the Identity vs. Role Confusion stage—the key developmental task of adolescence. Something may have happened at that point in their lives—trauma, instability, lack of support—and they never fully developed a stable sense of identity. So they stay in that confused, searching place, not knowing who they are or their role.
Some of the celebrities we’ve studied seem to be stuck in Industry vs. Inferiority. They constantly try to prove themselves because they never developed a secure sense of competence. And that drive for validation can sometimes mask deep feelings of inadequacy.
And then you have external factors that interfere with development—technology, drugs and alcohol, trauma, bullying, grief, divorce, even the death of a parent. All of these can cause someone to get stuck on a stage.
Yes, you can get stuck anywhere on the developmental path. Let’s take a child who’s emotionally two years behind. If they were supposed to be learning specific social skills in third grade, but they missed that due to COVID isolation, then they’re still displaying third-grade behaviours by fifth grade. That’s because they never had the chance to practice and internalize those skills when they mattered developmentally.
In Erikson’s model, you must master a stage before moving on to the next one. To give a more concrete example, kids learn basic things like sharing and taking turns in kindergarten and first grade.
Glover: By third and fourth grade, kids understand they can’t control their friends. They realize: “Even if I do everything right, my friends still have their minds and choices.” By reaching fifth and sixth grade, most children have accepted that reality and are working on more complex social skills, like navigating group dynamics, collaboration, and peer influence.
But we’re seeing now that fifth graders are still operating at a third-grade level—trying to control their peers, getting upset when their friends don’t comply, and struggling with basic autonomy in relationships.
Weaver: And that’s mainly due to the lack of social interaction during COVID and the continued reliance on technology, which doesn’t provide kids with face-to-face relational experiences.
Jacobsen: So it’s a delayed developmental effect. Devices are designed to be habit-forming—so even when COVID restrictions were lifted, the behavioural patterns continued.
So would you, as experts, expect a lagging curve? In other words, even though COVID has declined in prominence, the habitual tech use persists—and probably remains above baseline.
The algorithms behind many of these platforms are built to promote compulsive use—dopamine-driven design. So yes, COVID-19 created the context, but the technology created lasting habits.
Glover: We haven’t seen comprehensive data on long-term post-COVID screen use, but from what we observe in schools, kids are still using tech more than they did pre-pandemic—even if not at the same intensity as during lockdown.
That’s precisely what we’re seeing.
I do not hear about it quite as much now, but I think parents have become more aware of the concerns around technology. Do I still have kids who play video games? Sure, but it’s nothing like what it was in the early 2000s.
I’ve noticed some improvement in that area at my school, and part of it is that there’s now much more information available to parents. They’re learning how to set boundaries at home. That’s been my experience with technology. What about yours?
Weaver: I still work with kids who are highly, highly addicted to technology. A lot of it comes down to parent training. I was in a meeting not too long ago where we held a session with parents, and we provided the parent research on the addictive nature of tech. Her son struggles to socialize outside of talking about video games—he doesn’t know how to relate in other contexts.
That said, I’ve seen some hopeful signs recently. Our kindergartners this year came in with stronger social skills than we’ve seen in the past few years. And it’s because they were babies during COVID. So, by the time they reached kindergarten, they had had a couple of years post-lockdown for social development.
Glover: During the height of COVID, those children were infants—and they probably received more direct time with parents, especially if the parents were working from home. That may have resulted in more face-to-face interaction during those crucial early years.
So we might see better emotional regulation in that group—not because COVID had no effect, but because their developmental window overlapped with heightened parental involvement. Yes, but to be clear—we don’t have data on that yet. That’s just an observation and professional hypothesis at this point.
Jacobsen: Right—and even if it is just opinion, it is still expertise-based and, therefore, more likely to be accurate than random speculation.
Glover: We sometimes forget that kids have many needs. They’re a lot of work—but they’re also so much fun. They’re all different. But if we want to see them emotionally regulated, they must go through those developmental stages of maturity. The adults around them must know how to manage their emotions. Parenting is hard. Some kids are just harder than others. Some push buttons more. Temperament plays a role. Abilities vary.
That’s where Leena and I come in—when we’re working in schools—we emphasize that it truly takes a team. It does take a village. When dealing with significant behavioural challenges, we must work collaboratively with parents and school staff to develop the most effective plan.
Weaver: And I’m trying to think more specifically about your question regarding technology’s role in this dynamic. Some kids with the most frequent temper tantrums at school also spend much unsupervised time on technology at home. They haven’t learned emotional regulation, so we teach them those foundational skills at school.
We’re walking them through the temper tantrum stage at age seven or eight because they didn’t learn earlier that those behaviours won’t work to get what they want.
Unfortunately, when they go home, many are handed devices. Parents may not be seeing the tantrums at home because technology is being used as a behaviour management tool—a digital pacifier, in some cases.
Glover: I’m thinking of several current cases. At my school, we have many families where both parents work, or it’s a single-parent household, or the child lives with grandparents—sometimes because the parents are incarcerated or struggling with substance use.
And you see a broad spectrum. Even under challenging circumstances, some of those kids are incredibly sweet and resilient—primarily when the grandparents or guardians are engaged and set clear boundaries.
Others carry deep anger about what they’ve gone through—which is entirely understandable. However, they can still thrive if they have engaged adults at school who care about them and hold them accountable.
I had one student with major behavioural challenges and temper tantrums. He bounced between his parents—each taking turns being in jail—so his home life was precarious. But at school, he had structure, consistency, and adult support. He did well in high school, came back to visit us later, and thanked us for what we did for him.
So it’s not about having a perfect home environment. It’s about having at least one or two adults—at home or school—who genuinely care, set appropriate boundaries, and hold kids accountable for their behaviour.
In our Healing Environment framework, we use the “house” model. It helps us assess what the child already has in place, what’s missing, and what they need to move through these developmental stages.
When we put those pieces in place—consistent relationships, boundaries, empathy, accountability, etc.—we’ve seen kids make incredible progress.
Jacobsen: Would you say that socioeconomic status is a more significant factor? Or is it more about the stability and engagement of the parental unit—whether it’s a single parent, grandparents, or dual-income household?
Glover: You can have families with money; the kids are still a mess. If there’s no accountability, and the child’s every want is fulfilled without expectations, that can lead to profound immaturity. We’ve seen some of the most entitled kids come from high-income households, and they often have more behavioural problems than children from homes experiencing economic hardship.
Weaver: So it depends. Socioeconomic factors can matter if the family is in crisis because the entire system is in survival mode. In those cases, it’s harder for parents to meet emotional needs when they struggle to meet basic needs.
Glover: But as Leena said, we’ve seen just as many issues—or sometimes more—from privileged families, where entitlement, lack of boundaries, and lack of accountability lead to emotional immaturity.
Poverty can be traumatizing. Not knowing if there will be food on the table, not knowing if you’ll be able to stay in your home—those are enormous stressors for a child. And it’s even harder because kids can’t do anything about it. It’s completely out of their hands. Then, on top of that, they’re watching their parents struggle and feel stressed, which adds another emotional burden.
What’s interesting, though, is that sometimes those experiences can mature children. Some kids want to help and contribute, and in doing so, they develop a strong sense of responsibility.
But there’s also a flip side. Those kids can become parentified—meaning they take on adult roles too early. When they do become adults, they sometimes try to reclaim the childhood they missed. That can lead to difficulties like substance use or reckless behaviour.
So you can have parentified children who become incredibly responsible adults, holding jobs, maintaining marriages, and raising families. But you can also have parentified children who grow up with unresolved trauma and fall into destructive coping mechanisms. It depends. It’s complex.
People are complex. It’s never one-size-fits-all. But what’s important is recognizing that poverty is stressful and can profoundly affect children. That’s what schools need to understand so that we can meet those kids with empathy and support and help families access the resources they need.
Weaver: One thing Traci does well—and it’s so powerful—is helping kids find meaning in their struggles. She helps them reflect on their learning from difficult situations, supporting emotional maturity.
Finding purpose in adversity is a big part of resilience. If a child has a parent who is abusive or dealing with addiction, and the situation isn’t severe enough to trigger child protection services, we can still help that child learn something from it. What are you learning from this? How can you become a stronger, wiser, more self-aware adult?
Or, if a child is growing up in poverty, we can help them reflect on the strengths they’re building—resourcefulness, compassion, grit. When they start to see that what they’re going through now might help them later in life, it changes their narrative from hopelessness to growth.
To help them find meaning in their struggle, we adults must understand that the struggle is real. We must name, acknowledge, and help them process it.
Glover: I’ve worked with students whose parents struggled with addiction. When they go home, they don’t know what version of their parent they’ll get: someone angry and volatile or calm and affectionate. And sometimes the situation isn’t “bad enough” for CPS to intervene—it’s not overt abuse, but it’s precarious.
So these kids are learning how to navigate unpredictable relationships. And what they often don’t realize is that they’re gaining a skill that many of their peers won’t have to learn until adulthood.
We help them understand: Yes, what you’re going through is hard. But you’re also developing emotional tools that will serve you in the future. And that can be transformative. Because when you’re in that moment—when you’re just trying to survive—it’s easy for a child to believe: “My life is always going to be like this.”
And it’s not just about learning coping skills—it’s also about helping them see that they’re developing strengths that many of their peers, who grew up in more stable environments, might not even understand. That gives kids a sense of hope.
Yes, and that hope helps them mature. It gets them thinking: What am I going to do for myself? What kind of life do I want? How will I create that?
Because ultimately, kids are their own person. Regardless of their background, they will grow up and have to make decisions. They’ll make mistakes, and they’ll make some great choices, too. Our goal is for them to honestly know their strengths and weaknesses and how to navigate life effectively.
That way, they can hold a job, maintain healthy relationships, and build the kind of life they want. As a counselor, that’s what I’m aiming for.
Jacobsen: So, let’s say a child has been diagnosed with something, or you understand there’s an environmental trauma at play—like substance misuse, absentee parenting, or aggression. I grew up in a home with alcoholism. Eventually, my father left, and it became a single-parent household. There were moments of instability and conflict.
Yes, we see these types of developmental arcs all the time—how childhood experiences impact stress regulation, emotional responses, and even physiological patterns, like elevated cortisol levels.
These things often register below conscious awareness, but they still shape a child’s ability to handle stress. And I want to distinguish something: it’s one thing to understand a child’s trauma, but quite another to have that understanding harden into an identity. It can become a “trauma anchoring,” where the past becomes a perpetual excuse for current behaviour.
So how do you strike that balance—between acknowledging trauma and providing support, while still teaching accountability and consequences for behavior?
Weaver: One of the key things we teach in our classrooms is the difference between empathy and sympathy.
Because what you’ve described—where trauma becomes a blanket excuse—can happen when people mistake sympathy for empathy. Sympathy says: “Poor you, let me let this slide because you’ve suffered.” Empathy says: “What you’ve been through is awful, and I see you—but I still expect you to be accountable for your choices.”
Empathy says: “What you’ve been through is horrible and unfair—but I believe in you. I believe you can overcome it.” Sympathy, on the other hand, says: “It’s awful. I feel sorry for you so I will lower my expectations.”
One of the most important things we emphasize with educators and parents is maintaining expectations with understanding. Yes, they might need more support—like counseling or accommodations—but there still has to be accountability for behaviour. Support and accountability are not mutually exclusive.
Let me give you an example. I worked with a first-grade student whose story is heartbreaking. She was born while her mother was in jail, lived with her father until age four, and then was placed with her mother once she was released. Later, it came to light that the father had been sexually abusing her from infancy.
That child experienced extensive trauma—being removed from the only caregiver she knew, then sent to live with someone who was essentially a stranger, albeit her mother. She’s now in a more stable home with her mother and her mother’s partner, but the psychological impact of those early years was profound.
Naturally, she began lying, stealing, and cheating—because, from her perspective, she had to survive. That was how she protected herself. But shaming her wasn’t going to change anything. So we used a team-based approach to support her.
We read our children’s book with her (Raising Babies by Traci Glover and Leena Weaver). It uses animal characters to explore the difference between cared-for and neglected animals. That helped her begin to externalize her experience and reflect.
I told her, “For a child who has gone through what you’ve been through, lying, stealing, and cheating are normal behaviours. That’s how kids survive trauma. But if you continue to do these things, it will hurt your heart.”
And we explained that to her in a developmentally appropriate way—because she was in first grade. That language helped her understand that her actions, while once protective, were now hurting her emotionally.
She still believed that what her father did to her was her fault. She said, “I shouldn’t have let him do that to me.”
Glover: And that’s so common. Children almost always internalize blame for abuse or trauma.
Jacobsen: Is that partly due to ego diffusion or a lack of self-other differentiation? Does the child see the parent as an extension of themselves?
Weaver: It’s also what Bessel van der Kolk and others refer to when discussing the body keeping the score. The nervous system absorbs and mimics other people’s emotions. And developmentally, if you believe it’s your fault, then you can control it. That creates a kind of psychological safety—even if it’s not rational.
Glover: It’s also tied to the development of conscience. Kids are learning to internalize behaviour, which is necessary for moral and emotional growth. Taking responsibility is how we mature. But trauma, divorce, instability—these experiences can cause kids to over-internalize, meaning they take responsibility for things they shouldn’t.
That’s where counseling plays a key role. It helps kids learn what is their responsibility and what is someone else’s. That’s the boundary work we do in therapy.
Weaver: We worked on that exact concept with this particular child. I told her, “You were a baby. It wasn’t your fault.” That truth is going to take time to sink in.
Meanwhile, we set up her environment for success. We reduced opportunities to lie, steal, and cheat by structuring her world more tightly. And we paired that structure with clear, consistent consequences—not punishments, but natural and logical consequences.
It didn’t take long for her to progress. First, we increased communication with home so she knew that school and home talked daily. You can set up simple systems with schools to make this happen. The key was that she knew her parents and the school staff were aware of her behaviour and working together.
That added structure and boundaries were essential for her. She wasn’t ready for the same freedom as other first graders. For example, we ensured she wasn’t alone in the cubby area because, in those moments of isolation, she was more likely to steal.
We didn’t frame it as punishment. We framed it as: “What do you need to feel safe?” When she did steal—let’s say an eraser—her consequence was to bring back two erasers or to do something kind for the person. There was accountability, but it was done in a way that aligned with her trauma history.
Glover: That’s how we work with children who have trauma-based behaviours: we don’t lower expectations, but we tailor the support. Because here’s the key—she can’t heal from trauma if she’s allowed to engage in harmful behaviour without accountability.
If she learns she can manipulate the adults—even subconsciously—it sends a message that if her abuser returns, we wouldn’t be strong enough to protect her from the abuser because she was able to manipulate us. That’s not safe. She needs the adults in her life to be wise enough to set boundaries and sensitive enough to recognize that her behaviours stem from a painful experience. It’s that balance of empathy and accountability.
Weaver: When she sees that the adults around her are strong enough to keep her safe and that they believe she can meet appropriate expectations, she begins to feel secure. That’s when maturity and growth happen.
Glover: What we don’t want—and this is a growing concern—is for children to take on trauma as an identity. We’re hearing this more often from teenagers: “I’m depressed,” “I’m anxious,”—not, “I’m experiencing depression or anxiety.”That distinction matters.
Weaver: Yes, we want them to recognize their struggles, but we don’t want them to become the struggle. Because if that identity takes hold, they stay stuck.
Jacobsen: And that extends beyond youth. You see this in public life, too—when someone behaves poorly, and it becomes public discourse, the diagnosis gets used to excuse the behaviour. It’s not limited to first-person experiences.
Glover: It’s a societal pattern.
Jacobsen: Thank you both.
Weaver: Thank you—take care!
Glover: Have a great day!
Jacobsen: Excellent. Thank you so much. You too.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/02
Dr. Jim Harter, Chief Scientist at Gallup, discusses global employee engagement trends. In 2024, engagement fell from 23% to 21%, costing an estimated $438 billion in lost productivity. Manager engagement dropped sharply, especially among young and female managers. Only 44% of managers receive formal training, highlighting a need for development in communication, recognition, and goal-setting. North America and Latin America lead engagement globally, though North America has declined. Global well-being also worsened, with thriving rates in Canada dropping from 73% to 53%. Harter emphasizes that engagement and well-being together impact retention and workplace performance.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re joined by Dr. Jim Harter, Chief Scientist for Workplace Management and Well-being at Gallup.
Dr. Jim Harter: Thanks for having me.
Jacobsen: Dr. Harter has conducted over 1,000 studies on workplace effectiveness, including the largest ongoing meta-analysis of human potential and business team performance. His research has been featured in prominent publications such as Harvard Business Review, The New York Times, and The Wall Street Journal. He’s also a best-selling author of several books, including 12: The Elements of Great Managing, Wellbeing: The Five Essential Elements, Wellbeing at Work, and It’s the Manager, which he co-authored with Gallup Chairman Jim Clifton. Their most recent book, Culture Shock, examines the evolving workplace in the wake of the pandemic and the shift to remote and hybrid environments.
He earned his doctorate in psychological and cultural studies from the University of Nebraska-Lincoln, focusing on quantitative and qualitative methods. For those unfamiliar, quantitative psychology is known for its rigorous statistical analysis, making it one of the more challenging doctoral tracks.
Harter: That’s right. It builds the foundation for our data-driven approach at Gallup.
Jacobsen: Let’s examine the data. What was the global employee engagement rate in 2024, and how did it compare to the previous year?
Harter: In 2024, the global employee engagement rate dropped from 23% to 21%, marking only the second decline since we began tracking it in 2009. This two-percentage-point decrease is significant, correlating with an estimated $438 billion in lost productivity worldwide.
Jacobsen: That’s substantial. Can you elaborate on how engagement levels impact productivity?
Harter: Certainly. Engagement reflects employees’ involvement and enthusiasm in their work. When employees are engaged, they put in more discretionary effort, which drives performance and productivity. When they’re disengaged, those contributions drop, and that can damage organizational outcomes.
Jacobsen: Are there specific groups where engagement has declined more sharply?
Harter: Yes. In 2024, engagement among managers dropped from 30% to 27%. Younger managers—those under 35—saw a five-point decline, while female managers saw a seven-point decline. This drop is especially concerning because managers account for about 70% of the variance in team engagement.
Jacobsen: With such significant impacts, what can organizations address declining engagement?
Harter: Organizations need to double down on manager development through training, coaching, and support. Managers need the right tools, clear expectations, and a culture that prioritizes well-being and performance. When managers are engaged, their teams are far more likely to be involved.
Jacobsen: The overall cost of a lack of engagement is about $9.6 trillion globally, correct?
Harter: That’s right. It’s essential to be clear about that number—it reflects the magnitude of lost productivity due to disengaged employees.
Jacobsen: But do we see predictable ups and downs in engagement year to year?
Harter: No, not really. Engagement trends don’t follow a predictable cycle. They depend almost entirely on what organizational leaders do—specifically, how well they equip managers to do their jobs effectively.
Jacobsen: What are the current challenges affecting manager engagement?
Harter: Right now, we’re seeing a significant issue with manager resiliency. Managers have a tremendous amount coming at them. Even before the recent shifts in the economy and workplace—much of it a continued aftershock of the pandemic—they already had heavy job demands. I can share some examples if you’d like, but the key point is this: the most significant causal factor in the drop in engagement is the drop in manager engagement.
Jacobsen: Why is that such a critical factor?
Harter: When managers are disengaged or uninspired, it’s difficult for them to inspire others. In other words, if your manager isn’t engaged, the employees will be unlikely to be involved. Engagement flows downward, which is why it’s so critical.
Jacobsen: Are all employee groups affected equally?
Harter: No. Not all workers—or groups—are impacted the same way. The most significant drop in engagement occurred among young managers and, in particular, female managers.
Jacobsen: What’s behind that trend?
Harter: When we look at why drops occur—why people become vulnerable to declines in engagement or well-being—it’s usually a compounding effect. Globally, women often carry substantial responsibilities both at work and home. Female managers, in particular, are balancing many competing demands. Then, you add all the workplace changes post-pandemic, and they feel the most impact. We saw a seven-point drop in engagement among female managers—the most significant decline across all groups.
But managers, in general, need to be highlighted here, too. They hold a uniquely critical position in every organization.
Jacobsen: How many managers have received formal management training?
Harter: Only 44% of managers globally report receiving formal management training. That’s surprising. It matters. The kind of training typically offered has historically been administrative in nature, which does help reduce active disengagement at the bottom. But if you want to boost engagement at the top end of the spectrum, move the needle, and you need different training.
Training focused on the people side of management—things like coaching, communication, recognition, and development—is where the opportunity lies. Our data from thousands of studies shows that if organizations want to significantly improve Manager and employee engagement, they need to upskill managers in these areas.
Jacobsen: That’s helpful context. And for readers, that might need parsing, but it’s key to a long-term engagement strategy. Some of our readers may not be dealing with this day-to-day. They may be speaking to various experts, and when you’re using your terminology, it must be translatable into more concrete terms. So, when we talk about upskilling at the personal level, what exactly does that mean—and what’s a practical example?
Harter: Great question. Upskilling a manager means giving them science-based insights into how they can effectively manage performance. It comes down to three key areas: employee engagement, performance management, and well-being. These three areas enable managers to have more frequent and meaningful conversations with their employees—conversations that help prevent minor issues from becoming larger ones.
The first area is setting clear expectations and involving employees in the process. When managers are skilled at collaboratively setting goals, everything else is much easier. The number one issue we’ve seen, particularly in the U.S. in recent years, is employees feeling unclear about what’s expected of them. There’s a lot coming at them, and without clarity, it’s easy to get overwhelmed. Managers who excel at clarifying goals and roles help reduce that ambiguity.
The second area is ongoing conversations. Our research strongly supports the idea that every Manager should have at least one meaningful weekly conversation with each employee. This doesn’t need to be a long meeting—15 to 30 minutes can be enough—but it needs to be substantive. These check-ins should include setting or adjusting goals, recognizing achievements, and helping employees understand how their work connects to the team and broader outcomes. These conversations also allow managers to know their employees’ strengths and tailor their support accordingly. We have tools that help managers do this more effectively.
The third area is accountability. Effective managers create a culture of high accountability where employees know how they’re performing. That accountability should focus on three things: their performance, their collaboration with the team, and the value they deliver to customers—whether those customers are internal or external. Everyone has a customer, and everyone should have a way of knowing how well they’re serving them.
So, good upskilling should address those three areas. When done right, this kind of development pulls together traditionally siloed areas—performance management, employee engagement, and individual well-being—into a unified and effective leadership approach.
Jacobsen: Which regions currently have the highest employee engagement, and what are they doing right?
Harter: The two regions tied for the highest employee engagement globally are the United States and Canada, Latin America and the Caribbean. But to understand what’s working, you must drill down to the company level within those regions. That’s what we do at Gallup—we work with organizations to identify the leaders and understand what drives their success. It’s less about geography and more about what companies within those regions do intentionally to build strong cultures and excellent management practices.
Jacobsen: Northern America and Latin America/Caribbean are at the top in terms of engagement. But Northern America has seen a decline in recent years, right?
Harter: Yes, that’s correct. While engagement in those two regions—Northern America, Latin America, and the Caribbean—is currently the highest globally, it is important to note that engagement in Northern America has dropped recently. Engagement levels are only in the 30% range now, so it’s far from perfect.
Jacobsen: So it’s not just about geography, then?
Harter: Exactly. What is critical for people to understand, Scott, is that there is massive variation within geographies at the company level. Some companies are doing outstanding work—those are the ones hitting 70%+ engagement levels. And we’ve studied many of them across industries and regions.
So, the most significant driver is not geography or industry—it’s the organization itself. That said, certain cultural norms within different geographies may influence engagement levels somewhat. For example, how much emphasis society places on the importance of work can affect engagement norms.
Jacobsen: And economic context?
Harter: Yes, macroeconomic conditions can play a role, especially in levels of active disengagement. In healthier economies, where workers have more choices, you tend to see lower active disengagement. However, active disengagement increases in weaker economies, where people feel stuck in bad jobs with fewer alternatives. We’ve written about that before. These economic pressures mainly influence the lower end of the engagement spectrum.
Jacobsen: Let’s move to a country-specific example. India is the largest democracy in the world and, as of 2021, overtook China as the most populous country. How was employee engagement in India, and how did that affect South Asia?
Harter: India is a dominant force in South Asia, so what happens there significantly impacts the region. Engagement in India declined substantially in the most recent data. They had reached a peak in recent years, but that trend has now reversed. As a result, South Asia’s overall engagement also declined, which has ripple effects on the global engagement numbers.
Jacobsen: Understood. I know we’re nearing the end of our time. Do you have a few more minutes?
Harter: Sure, I can take a few more minutes.
Jacobsen: Great. I’ll let you choose: Do you want to discuss job market sentiment or employee well-being?
Harter: Let’s go with well-being.
Jacobsen: What percentage of employees reported thriving in 2024? And how does that compare to previous years?
Harter: Let me pull that up real quick… I had the report open here a moment ago.
Harter: The report provides specific numbers, but “thriving” is an especially interesting metric from a well-being perspective because its trajectory varies significantly by region.
For instance, the percentage of people thriving in the U.S. and Canada has dropped significantly over the years. In Canada, the thriving rate was once as high as 73%. Now it’s around 52%. In the U.S., the number has also declined from 60% down to 52%.
Globally, the percentage of people reporting they’re thriving is about 32%.
The two regions with the sharpest declines are the U.S., Canada, Australia, and New Zealand. These drops suggest that more people in those areas struggle with evaluating their overall lives.
Jacobsen: What about other well-being indicators like stress?
Harter: That’s a good question. We track a range of well-being indicators, and stress has increased significantly. For example, in Canada, the percentage of people reporting daily stress rose from 45% to 58%. That’s a substantial increase.
Anger has also gone up—by about four percentage points globally.
To clarify one earlier point, Canada’s thriving rate dropped from 73% to 53% between 2009 and today—a 20-point decline. The U.S. saw a similar drop, though not quite as steep.
Jacobsen: Those are significant changes in how people perceive their lives overall. How does this tie into employee retention and the job market?
Harter: That’s a key point, Scott. When people consider a job change, engagement—how they feel about their work—is central. But well-being plays a significant role, too.
When we consider engagement and well-being together, they have an additive effect on predicting whether someone intends to stay with their organization or leave. Even in a tight job market, where fewer people may be actively switching jobs, these psychological factors influence how employees show up and whether they’re committed to doing great work.
When the job market loosens again, those same psychological factors will shape how people perceive their organizations—whether they want to stay or go.
Jacobsen: So well-being is a cultural investment, not just a retention strategy.
Harter: Exactly. One of the most impactful improvements organizations can make is to take a holistic approach to supporting their employees—not just as workers but as people. I’m not saying managers should be life counsellors, but they should be equipped to have regular, meaningful conversations with their employees.
Managers can adapt and support more effectively by understanding what’s going on in people’s work lives. When employees are engaged but have low well-being, they often start looking for other jobs because their lives are not going well. High engagement helps, but it’s the whole picture that genuinely matters.
At the start of the report, every variable we measure—thriving, stress, engagement—is broken down by region.
Thanks for being so thorough, Scott.
Jacobsen: Thank you again. It was great to meet you.
Harter: Likewise. Nice to meet you, Scott. Take care.
Jacobsen: Bye.
Harter: Bye-bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/06/01
Eru Hiko-Tahuri is a New Zealand-based author, broadcaster, and cultural commentator of Ngāti Kahungunu descent. He is best known for his memoir Māori Boy Atheist, in which he recounts his personal journey from religious upbringing to atheism, reflecting on the intersections of Māori identity and belief systems . In addition to his writing, Hiko-Tahuri has worked as a radio broadcaster and is active in discussions around Māori language, culture, and secularism . His work often explores the complexities of navigating traditional Māori values within contemporary society. Eru Hiko-Tahuri shares that Māori culture defines a good man as one who cares for his family and community, emphasizing a holistic sense of support—emotional, financial, and protective. Leadership and elder status are earned through service and example, not simply age or title. Māori culture respects elders but values merit and balance between men’s and women’s roles. LGBTQ individuals historically held spiritual roles. Good parenting involves cultural transmission. Christianity has deeply influenced Māori beliefs, with syncretic Māori churches and translations like Te Paipera Tapu (The Sacred Bible). This shift to Christianity occurred rapidly from the late 18th century onward.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How does Māori culture describe a good man?
Eru Hiko-Tahuri: A good man is someone who looks after his family. It is really that simple.
Jacobsen: Now, the broadest and often Western—particularly Catholic—version of that idea is that a man provides financially. Does Māori culture emphasize the same or something more holistic?
Hiko-Tahuri: It is broader than that. Looking after your family includes the people around you—your community. That can be through financial support, physical protection, emotional presence—whatever is needed. That is what I would say.
Jacobsen: How does the community see that role? In some societies, men are given undue status—for example, a young man in a clerical collar might be treated with the authority of someone twice his age. Can you provide an example of when men are granted undue authority and when they are given rightful authority?
Hiko-Tahuri: I have not thought about that before—thanks for raising it. It can depend on the context. In Māori spaces, such as during hui (gatherings), men often lead public speaking. But that does not mean the women are absent or secondary. Each has a role, and these roles complement each other. The men’s roles do not exist in isolation from the women’s. There is a balance, and it is understood within the cultural framework.
Jacobsen: Regarding parenting roles, particularly for men, is it seen more as a privilege or a responsibility—or perhaps both?
Hiko-Tahuri: I do not know precisely how it is framed. I think it is just something you do—it is expected. It is part of being a decent human being and part of the community. Maybe that makes it both a responsibility and a privilege, but it is not always discussed in those terms.
Jacobsen: There is no question about it—you are either a parent or not. And if you are, then you try to be the best parent you can be. Are there deterrents from going against the norm of being a good parent?
Hiko-Tahuri: Not that I know of.
Jacobsen: Does this idea get built into Māori mythology at all? You mentioned the void or the nothingness. So, from that, as things flow forward and creation happens—is that somehow integrated into the founding mythology? I am just trying to think of examples.
Hiko-Tahuri: I guess it would have to be, in a way. But I can’t specifically say how without spending a couple of years thinking about it.
Jacobsen: Now, in North American Indigenous cultures, there is precedent for LGBTQ people—like the concept of Two-Spirit. You do not see that in traditional European culture, at least not in the same way. Of course, in contemporary Western European culture, LGBTQ identities are widely recognized and increasingly central to cultural discourse. But is there something akin to Two-Spirit in Māori history?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yep. Some people were considered different from the mainstream. Members of what we now call the LGBTQ+ community often became the spiritual guides of the people. Because they were different, everyone recognized that they saw the world differently. That gave them a special place in society, and we could learn from them. They would often become what we call tohunga—the spiritual specialists or priests of the iwi (tribes).
Jacobsen: What responsibilities are given to men who work their way up to higher strata in Māori society?
Hiko-Tahuri: Speaking rights, usually. They would be the ones looked to for guidance in community matters and would be given elder status.
Jacobsen: What complicates that in New Zealand is that those lines blur when living between two worlds. Most people live in the contemporary European system, but that status only sometimes translates when they cross into Māori contexts. It is not guaranteed to carry across both systems. I think contemporary North American culture has, to some extent, retained a decent amount of respect for elders, which many other cultures have lost.
Hiko-Tahuri: Yeah. We still show respect to our elders in Māori society. But I have also been the kind of person who says, “Well, you cannot earn mana before you deserve it.” So, I ask—do I need to respect you if I completely disagree with your statement? Maybe. But we can talk about that. Generally, though, yes, we show that respect.
Jacobsen: How is parenting viewed? What is considered good parenting, and what is regarded as bad parenting?
Hiko-Tahuri: I do not know if there is a single answer. Most of us try to do our best.
Jacobsen: What is considered good parenting in Māori culture?
Hiko-Tahuri: I do not know precisely what defines good parenting in a uniquely Māori sense. But I would say children should have some knowledge of their cultural background—they should know where they are from and what tribal group they belong to. It would be ideal if they knew some of the language. They should understand the cultural practices expected of Māori people and learn how to conduct themselves in those situations. Aside from all the general things that would be a big part of it, like not being a terrible person. You know, the fundamental values everyone would agree on.
Jacobsen: Historically—and generally speaking—many societies have grappled with what to do with their young men. Cultures create rituals, rules, taboos, or even superstitions to guide them. What are the cultural guardrails for young Māori men?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yeah, that is a difficult question. Let me think. The biggest thing we try to do is set the best example we can, which is often all we can do. Our cultural practices and way of life have been quite decimated over the last few hundred years. It is hard now to describe what a Māori view is compared to what we have had to adapt to just to navigate the modern world.
Jacobsen: How much have Christianity and the broader colonial enterprise influenced traditional Māori beliefs? I ask because, although you live in what is now a largely post-colonial and post-Christian society, it has certainly left an impact. In North America, for example, I have met Indigenous people—First Nations, Métis, Inuit, Native Americans—who identify as Christian but combine it with traditional beliefs in quite a syncretic way.
Hiko-Tahuri: Most definitely. That happens here, too. There are probably four fairly prominent Māori Christian churches.
Jacobsen: What does that mean in practice?
Hiko-Tahuri: Well, the language they use is Māori.
Jacobsen: So there’s a Māori Bible?
Hiko-Tahuri: Yes, it is written entirely in Māori. The first parts of it were translated around 1848.
Jacobsen: What do they call it?
Hiko-Tahuri: Te Paipera Tapu—the Sacred Bible.
Jacobsen: That’s interesting. Do they tell any of the stories differently?
Hiko-Tahuri: No, they are the same.
Jacobsen: What is the name of Jesus Christ in Māori?
Hiko-Tahuri: Ihu Karaiti.
Jacobsen: That sounds a bit more beautiful. I think it’s a better way to say the name.
Hiko-Tahuri: Yeah.
Jacobsen: So what are some of the other things? You mentioned the four Māori churches—what else? Do you have the Bible?
Hiko-Tahuri: Well, there are probably more than four. There are so many small Māori crossovers into Christianity. I could name four or five just in the local area that have popped up. There were also many Māori prophets at the time—young Māori men in the early 1800s whom Christian ministers brought up.
They read the Bible, reflected on it, and created their versions—sort of a spiritual cocktail, you might say. There were lots of those movements. The Bible had a huge influence here, especially from the 1800s to about 1950.
We went from 1769, when Captain Cook first arrived, to being about 90% Christian by 1890.
That’s a dramatic shift.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the your time, Eru.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/31
Scott Douglas Jacobsen and Irina Tsukerman discuss the U.S. decision to ease some Syria sanctions via the Caesar Act waiver, influenced by regional diplomacy and economic interests. European allies express frustration over being sidelined. Trump’s inconsistent foreign policy, including business ties with the UAE, is contrasted with Europe’s unified push for accountability. Broader analysis includes Thailand and Vietnam’s strategic balancing, the Vatican’s more assertive stance under Pope Leo XIV on Ukraine, and criticism of Human Rights Watch’s selective scrutiny. They conclude with updates on Congo and Sudan, where international coordination is lacking, and a ceasefire proposal in Ukraine dismissed by Russia, with Trump offering little pushback. This interview took place on May 16, 2025.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today’s sources are Reuters, AP News, the United Nations, and Human Rights Watch, in no particular order. The United States has announced a plan to ease some sanctions on Syria. This decision involves using a waiver provision under the Caesar Syria Civilian Protection Act. The policy move is said to be influenced in part by regional diplomatic overtures, particularly from Saudi Arabia, and is aimed at facilitating post-war reconstruction and limited economic recovery in Syria. The U.S. Treasury Department is expected to issue general licenses for specific sectors essential to humanitarian and reconstruction efforts. Any comments?
Irina Tsukerman: While Saudi Arabia has reportedly encouraged regional reintegration of Syria, especially in the context of the Arab League, this particular U.S. policy does not appear to be directly driven by the Crown Prince himself. Instead, it reflects broader foreign policy calculations across multiple regional state actors. Saudi Arabia’s foreign policy establishment has increasingly emphasized pragmatic diplomacy and regional de-escalation, with less focus on ideological or sectarian alignment.
Though the Crown Prince has hosted recent regional summits involving Syria, he does not appear to be an enthusiastic proponent of Ahmed Al-Sharaa’s regime. Photographic and diplomatic evidence suggests a cautious and calculated approach in such interactions.
The move to issue sanctions waivers will likely be controversial. The Caesar Act is a U.S. law passed with bipartisan congressional support and is designed to penalize the government and not just any particular figure, so the Ahmed Al-Sharaa regime for war crimes and human rights violations. Any easing of sanctions will require close coordination with multiple U.S. agencies, including the Department of Justice and the Department of State. While the Treasury Department may act more quickly, the State Department could face political headwinds—particularly from legislators like Senator Marco Rubio, who have strongly opposed any rapprochement with the Ahmed Al-Sharaa government.
Initial diplomatic talks are reportedly being considered between U.S. State Department officials and representatives connected to the Syrian government, possibly in a neutral location such as Turkey. These talks likely include specific U.S. conditions, including political reforms, humanitarian guarantees, and commitments to international law. Verifying any agreement would be a significant hurdle, and the integrity of such a process remains uncertain.
There have been some private business deals involving high-profile figures or promises related to rare earth mineral access—Al-Sharaa direcrly proposed the deals.
European allies have expressed frustration over the decision. They are concerned both about being sidelined and about the potential normalization of a government responsible for mass atrocities. Several EU member states have called for a coordinated international approach that includes robust security assessments, human rights protections, and accountability mechanisms.
There have been reports that, under international pressure, the Syrian government has agreed to specific monitoring proposals to protect vulnerable communities. However, these commitments remain vague, and enforcement mechanisms are limited. Furthermore, ongoing violence and the lack of territorial control in parts of the country continue to undermine security.
A credible and transparent multilateral oversight framework would be necessary for any sanctions relief to be responsibly implemented. However, it remains unclear whether the current U.S. administration prioritizes multilateral engagement. While Gulf States, including Saudi Arabia and the UAE, have expressed interest in facilitating economic investment and humanitarian aid, enforcement and accountability remain unresolved.
Meanwhile, Turkey remains a key regional player with a complex role—hosting millions of Syrian refugees, backing opposition elements in northern Syria, and maintaining strained relations with both Ahmed Al-Sharaa and Israel. Its actions could significantly influence the outcome of any regional diplomatic framework.
The evolving U.S. approach to Syria sanctions is fraught with geopolitical complexity, legal constraints, and significant uncertainty regarding outcomes and intent. While many Syrians and observers across the region greeted Trump’s announcement with optimism, it is likely to be far more challenging to implement than he realizes. He is making the announcement primarily for publicity and to win favour with business partners in Middle Eastern countries. But making a public statement is one thing; figuring out how the plan will work is another.
The Caesar sanctions are complex. In addition to them, other U.S. and international sanctions are in place. There is no clear announcement about whether these sanctions will be lifted all at once, whether they will be phased out incrementally, or whether each sanction will be tied to specific benchmarks related to Syria’s conduct.
Many people forget that the Caesar sanctions were designed to target specific types of behaviour, particularly war crimes and crimes against humanity, and not just individuals like Ahmed Al-Sharaa himself. While Al-Sharaa and his regime were the primary focus, the law is structured to pressure for systemic change.
Syria may be meeting some U.S. demands, but certainly not all of them. Reportedly, Trump has requested additional measures, including the expulsion of Palestinian militants and all other foreign fighters. That is a highly complicated demand because many of those fighters are personally connected to Ahmed Al-Sharaa and function as security guarantors for the regime. Some of those fighters did come under Assad, but other foreign fighters (not the Palestinian ones) were invited by Al-Sharaa, and that’s why it’s a problem for him to get rid of them. These are people he invited in, and in some cases, they have even been granted Syrian citizenship.
Once citizenship is granted, it is difficult to revoke it arbitrarily under international law. While Syria may prevent the entry of additional foreign fighters and attempt to increase border controls, with potential coordination from Iraq, removing those already present is another matter entirely. In practice, the expulsion of embedded foreign fighters is unlikely in the near term.
Trump may overlook some of these unresolved issues in exchange for the economic incentives the Gulf States and Syria proposed. That raises serious concerns, particularly given that the policy was announced before Syria demonstrated substantive compliance with international standards or U.S. demands.
This approach is reminiscent of awarding a “preemptive Nobel Prize,” which grants rewards for promises of future behaviour rather than measurable progress. Traditionally, significant and verifiable reforms precede any discussion of lifting sanctions.
Now that Trump has said he will proceed, bureaucratic infighting is expected to unfold among various departments and officials. However, Trump still has significant political influence. If he decides to override opposition—from figures like Senator Rubio or other institutional actors—he may do so through informal channels, incentives, or pressure tactics, potentially bypassing established legal procedures.
Jacobsen: Moving to the next topic, on the European front, the European Union is also considering easing sanctions on Syria. EU foreign policy chief Kaja Kallas recently proposed relaxing certain sanctions, including those targeting the Commercial Bank of Syria, and allowing funding to flow to ministries tied to reconstruction and counterterrorism efforts.
Tsukerman: This is noteworthy because the European Union has long positioned itself as a guardian of human rights and democratic norms in Syria. It was among the strongest proponents of sanctions during the earlier phases of the conflict. While some Eastern European countries have taken a more pragmatic stance in recent years, others remained cautious—until recently.
It signalled a turning point when France welcomed Syrian representatives like Foreign Minister Faisal Mekdad (not “Charam,” which appears to be a mistaken name). That initiative—seen as a form of quiet diplomacy—seems to have helped break the unified EU stance. France positioned itself as a mediator among the Gulf States, the EU, and the broader international community.
And the UK, despite its exit from the EU, was also unwilling to forgo the opportunity to reassert itself diplomatically in the region. In effect, many European leaders realized that if the United States was going to take aggressive steps toward re-engaging with Syria, they risked being sidelined unless they acted.
There are no reconstruction contracts, no ability to influence the situation, no counterterrorism input, and, most importantly, no opportunity to help resolve the refugee issue involving millions of displaced Syrians who may consider returning home if the situation stabilizes. That is the European Union’s strategic dilemma. As the United States moves forward, the EU follows suit, trying to secure its seat at the table.
Their motivations are clear: first, gaining investment opportunities and a chance to profit from reconstruction; second, playing a meaningful role in counterterrorism. European policymakers are concerned that if Syria is denied funding, even if Al-Sharaa cooperates within a counterterrorism framework, he may lack the resources to enforce it. In their view, the funding allows him to stabilize the region and manage jihadist networks.
The concern is that such support might result in Al-Sharaa “buying off” these networks, bribing them into temporary compliance. That is a deeply flawed and morally questionable approach, but one that some European actors may be willing to tolerate after years of ISIS-linked terrorist attacks across the continent.
This is where geopolitics meets brutal realism. It is not about endorsing Al-Sharaa but managing risks in a fragmented and dangerous landscape. From their standpoint, allowing Al-Sharaa access to reconstruction funds may be the lesser of several evils if it prevents a resurgence of violent extremism.
Jacobsen: Shifting to the U.S.–UAE economic agreements now—during President Trump’s latest Middle East tour, Gulf tour, which ironically diverged from his usual domestic golf outings on the public dime, he struck some significant business arrangements.
In particular, the United Arab Emirates agreed to purchase advanced AI semiconductors from American companies. Even more noteworthy, the UAE pledged to increase its investment in U.S. energy projects from $70 billion to $440 billion over the next decade. Do you have any thoughts?
Tsukerman: First, it is essential to note that the UAE is among the most pragmatic countries in the Gulf region—arguably the most. However, large numbers like $440 billion are aspirational. Signing such commitments during a favourable political climate is easy, but whether they materialize depends on future leadership.
If Trump leaves office in four years and the U.S. administration’s policies shift dramatically, the agreements may not be fully implemented. Technically, these deals are struck between nations and are meant to be upheld regardless of leadership changes. But in practice, continuity is not guaranteed. We have seen many trade and strategic agreements falter under new administrations—not just in the U.S. but globally.
Will the U.S. benefit from these agreements during Trump’s tenure? The answer is: only to the extent that the UAE perceives a direct, immediate benefit. For instance, the semiconductor deals will likely proceed. AI and advanced technology are top priorities for the UAE, and they are willing to spend heavily to secure their position as a regional tech leader.
For the U.S., this cooperation is a broader strategy for reducing the UAE’s technological reliance on China. Until recently, the UAE had maintained strong tech partnerships with Chinese firms, raising U.S. national security concerns. From the Biden administration to the Trump team, a surprisingly consistent push has been to curtail Chinese influence in sensitive technological sectors. Whether that pressure will continue to bear fruit remains to be seen.
The Trump and Biden administrations have stayed relatively on top of the AI chip issue. Not necessarily on top of everything else, but when it comes to advanced semiconductors, there has been a remarkable degree of consistency. Given their increasing importance to U.S. national security infrastructure, this emphasis is expected to continue regardless of who is in office.
Military and defence-related agreements are also likely to remain a high priority. However, there are already signs of congressional resistance—Senator Chris Murphy, for example, has signalled potential efforts to block certain deals. His concern is not solely about arms sales per se but rather the additional components tied to them, including investments by Emirati officials into Trump-linked cryptocurrency ventures. These ventures are widely seen as opaque, unregulated, and primarily designed to enrich Trump family members.
That kind of financial entanglement could slow the implementation of ongoing weapons sales. Other commercial investments are tied to UAE–U.S. cooperation, but much of their success will depend on follow-through. Many may remain on paper if the U.S. is not assertive in cultivating and enforcing the agreements. Some of the pledged funds may arrive eventually, but likely not quickly.
One troubling aspect of these deals is that they overwhelmingly favour a small group of top-tier U.S. companies. This concentration of benefits in the hands of a few well-connected players—many with close ties to Trump or his political allies—means the broader U.S. economy may see minimal impact. Small and medium-sized businesses, as well as innovative startups, are largely excluded from the windfall.
So, while these deals are not necessarily harmful, they are also not particularly helpful for the American public. They do not reflect the corruption seen in places like Qatar, but their structure and execution are likely to reinforce existing economic inequalities. The agreements could be seen as routine geopolitical arrangements—normal, understandable, and arguably beneficial in a narrow sense—but unlikely to deliver widespread domestic benefit.
In short, these are not transformative national agreements; they will make a few already powerful companies even wealthier, particularly those aligned with the Trump family’s business interests.
Jacobsen: Shifting focus slightly, let us talk about Vietnam and Thailand—regions we do not hear much about in the American press, particularly in places like the Pacific Northwest or the far Northeast. Yet they are quietly playing increasingly strategic roles.
Vietnam and Thailand have been enhancing their bilateral strategic partnership. Thailand has aligned more closely with Vietnam’s key international partners, namely the U.S., China, and Russia. This curious mix suggests an intentional strategy of playing all sides in a highly competitive geopolitical environment.
That partnership has grown in key sectors like defence, security cooperation, and politics, along with increased bilateral trade, which has now reached $25 billion. It is a delicate balancing act. Smaller economies like Thailand and Vietnam try to maximize leverage and independence by maintaining relationships with all major powers. Do you have any thoughts?
Tsukerman: The U.S., however, has not been particularly aggressive in engaging with these neutral or semi-aligned nations under any of the last three administrations—Trump, Biden, or Trump again. That leaves space for countries like China and Russia to build influence, especially when the U.S. does not offer a compelling alternative.
Even under President Obama, there was supposed to be a “pivot to Asia,” but that strategy never fully materialized. The Biden administration was more aggressive in engaging with the region, but it prioritized issues, such as climate change and energy transition, that were not always top concerns for countries like Thailand.
Thailand, in particular, focuses on pragmatic economic development and defence. China and Russia, by contrast, have never tried to impose those priorities. They have followed a simpler playbook: selling what they want, when they want.
Russia is primarily a weapons and energy exporter. China, meanwhile, has invested heavily throughout Southeast Asia. While a significant portion of Chinese investment has gone to Malaysia, a substantial amount has also flowed into Thai startups and infrastructure. In comparison, the U.S. has been relatively slow and uncompetitive. Its trade volume and foreign direct investment in Thailand are modest by regional standards.
Thailand sees the U.S. market as desirable, but with the current tariff environment and lack of comprehensive trade agreements, it is uncertain whether Thai products will be welcomed in the U.S. as they might have been in more favourable trade conditions.
The broader issue is that Thailand is pursuing defence and trade agreements with nearly every major player—China, Russia, and the U.S.. That strategy is advantageous for Thailand but undermines any coherent U.S. effort to build an anti-China bloc in the Indo-Pacific.
The Trump administration undermined its long-term strategy by withdrawing from the Trans-Pacific Partnership (TPP) without offering a viable replacement. That left a vacuum in regional economic leadership. If the U.S. is serious about countering China comprehensively—economically, militarily, and diplomatically—this is an opportunity to reevaluate whether isolationism serves national interests.
You cannot pursue a policy of economic nationalism while expecting other countries to align with your strategic vision. The inconsistency is exactly why Thailand can play all sides. The U.S. has not built the infrastructure necessary to contain or compete with Chinese investment drives across the region.
Jacobsen: This subsequent development is quite important. In religious news this week, Pope Leo XIV met with His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk, the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, at the Vatican. During the meeting, Shevchuk formally invited the Pope to visit Kyiv and presented him with a list of Ukrainian prisoners currently held by Russia. The Vatican continues to engage diplomatically, aiming to position itself as a neutral mediator in the ongoing conflict between Russia and Ukraine. Any general thoughts on the new Pope, especially in light of the Russian-Ukrainian war?
Tsukerman: Pope Leo XIV has been notably active in the papacy’s spiritual and diplomatic dimensions. He has referenced the principles established under the Second Vatican Council (Vatican II), including a renewed emphasis on peace-building, dialogue, and interfaith diplomacy. His approach blends theological continuity with geopolitical urgency, especially in addressing the suffering caused by war in Ukraine. He seems determined to use the moral authority of the Holy See to promote negotiations, though whether any party will accept Vatican mediation remains to be seen.
The new Pope, Leo XIV, has already spoken about theological pilgrimages to Turkey and has been highly engaged from the outset from a political and moral standpoint. His very first international phone call was to President Volodymyr Zelenskyy. Now, by meeting with His Beatitude Sviatoslav Shevchuk, the head of the Ukrainian Greek Catholic Church, he is sending a clear message about the Vatican’s priorities, especially regarding the protection of communities suffering under Russian aggression, including Christians.
The Catholic Church in Russia, as well as in territories currently occupied or invaded by Russian forces, has faced discrimination and persecution for decades. Catholics have never been particularly welcome in Russia, despite the presence of a significant Catholic minority. Other Christian denominations are also facing extreme pressure, both within Russia and in Ukraine, as a direct result of Russian actions.
This new dynamic marks a departure from Pope Francis’s approach. While Pope Francis often spoke of peace, his stance sometimes suggested that Ukraine should compromise or give in to Russian demands. He rarely, if ever, offered strong support for Christians affected by the Russian invasion. In contrast, Pope Leo XIV appears to be positioning the Church as an advocate for justice and accountability. There is growing anticipation that Ukraine will be one of the first countries the new pope visits. That would send a strong signal—not only to Russia and its allies, but also to the Trump administration, which has yet to prioritize a visit to Ukraine.
This shift also has potential implications for Vatican policy in other regions. Under Pope Francis, the Vatican pursued a controversial agreement with the Chinese Communist Party (CCP), which many saw as a betrayal of Chinese Catholics who were forced into compliance with the state-controlled Church. It remains unclear whether Pope Leo XIV will continue this policy. His early actions suggest he may take a firmer stance on religious freedom.
He also appears committed to expanding interfaith dialogue, establishing deeper relationships with Jewish communities, and reinvigorating theological engagement. How this will evolve remains to be seen, but it is a promising start.
Jacobsen: Moving on—Human Rights Watch has released a report criticizing the British government for continuing to approve arms exports to Israel, despite ongoing concerns about potential violations of international law and the worsening humanitarian crisis in Gaza. The matter was brought before the UK High Court. Any thoughts?
Tsukerman: From a strictly pragmatic standpoint, this criticism is somewhat overblown. The volume of British arms exports to Israel is relatively small. The overwhelming majority of Israel’s weapons and defence systems come from the United States, not the United Kingdom. The British contribution is minimal, both financially and logistically.
So while Human Rights Watch may raise concerns about consistency in foreign policy or international legal standards, the actual scale of the UK’s involvement is marginal. The report does not reflect a substantive shift in the broader dynamics of arms flows to Israel. It may serve more as a symbolic critique than a report on a major humanitarian issue.
It is an entirely political position in that regard. Furthermore, I noticed that Human Rights Watch had nothing to say about Trump’s arms deals with Qatar, a country that is a well-documented human rights violator, both within its borders and in its funding or support of various extremist organizations globally. This kind of selective scrutiny reveals a lack of consistency, making it difficult to take some Human Rights Watch’s reports at face value.
That is not to say there are no legitimate criticisms of Israeli policy. For instance, allowing humanitarian aid into Gaza but then failing to implement measures to ensure Hamas does not divert or confiscate it is a flawed policy. It helps no one—not civilians in Gaza, not Israel, and not the broader international community.
That type of critique is valid and shared by many people who nonetheless support Israel’s right to defend itself. However, what Human Rights Watch appears to be arguing here is that Israel should not confront or engage terrorist organizations because it has made implementation errors in certain areas. That is not a tenable or coherent position.
Jacobsen: Now shifting focus—Africa does not receive much sustained coverage in North American media, at least not within the primary information flow. Yet, there are significant developments that deserve attention.
The International Committee of the Red Cross (ICRC), in collaboration with the United Nations Mission in the Democratic Republic of the Congo (MONUSCO) and Congolese security forces, successfully escorted 1,359 disarmed soldiers, police officers, and their families from Goma—a city with rebel presence—to the capital, Kinshasa. The operation aims to reunite displaced personnel with their families and de-escalate regional tensions.
Any such step is welcome, and it represents incremental progress. But is it a groundbreaking achievement?
Tsukerman: No. It is a tactical step that may help generate a more positive atmosphere but does not resolve the deeper, entrenched causes of conflict.
The underlying issues—ethnic tensions, resource disputes, political instability, and corruption—require long-term commitment and coordination. Right now, there does not appear to be sufficient political will, either domestically in the Congo or internationally, to pursue those long-term objectives seriously.
The U.S. has played a role in diffusing some high-level tensions between Rwanda and the DRC, but that does not address the core conflict dynamics. Addressing rebel movements requires a separate and sustained track involving diplomacy, intelligence-sharing, humanitarian investment, and economic development. That includes engagement not only with national governments but also with the communities most affected.
Given the corruption and governance issues in the DRC, especially in border regions, this will not be solved quickly. What is needed is a comprehensive, internationally coordinated framework of response. One that looks beyond reactive efforts and gets to the root causes: why armed groups continue to form, why people support them, and what systemic incentives allow violence to persist.
The focus should be on dismantling those root causes, not just reacting to the actors themselves. Without that, violence and instability will remain cyclical. Sudan is in an even more dire situation, yet it has received only a fraction of the global attention. The pattern of underreporting African crises while overemphasizing more politically charged conflicts elsewhere is all too familiar.
Jacobsen: We do not want this to get lost in the noise. The most significant development this week is the ceasefire proposal being ignored. Ukraine’s Foreign Minister, Andriy Sybiha, stated that Russia has completely disregarded a 30-day ceasefire, backed by European powers, proposed by Ukraine. The truce was intended to begin on May 12.
I am unsure what will come of this, but I hope the urgency catches on—there is a clear need for expedited action. Following this, European leaders, including those from France, Germany, Britain, and Poland, have urged the European Commission to draft a new package of massive sanctions, primarily targeting Russia’s energy and financial sectors. As with previous sanctions, the goal is to pressure Putin into agreeing to a ceasefire.
Any thoughts?
Tsukerman: Yes, it is unlikely to happen despite some rhetoric from various corners of the U.S. government about penalizing Russia if it fails to honour the ceasefire process. Trump has given Putin a pass for abandoning his proposals. Let us not forget: Putin initially suggested a top-level meeting in Istanbul. President Zelensky responded directly, saying he would meet him there. But instead, Putin downgraded the meeting to a lower-level delegation and then reportedly went to a restaurant. This was a provocation. This behaviour—last-minute reversals and low-level substitutes—is not just diplomatically unserious; it is performative. It is as if Putin is playing to an audience of one: Trump. He seems to care very little about the broader international community.
Trump’s response—that he would need to meet with Putin directly for Putin to agree to meet with Zelensky—is deeply concerning. It signals that the U.S. president is not serious about consequences for Russian violations. Any meaningful sanctions would have to come from Congress, and even then, it is unclear whether Trump would sign off on them.
After all the tough talk and grandstanding, it is becoming evident that the U.S. may not follow through. However, it is encouraging that Europe now seems united in its commitment to imposing long-overdue accountability measures. These sanctions should have been in place from the beginning. There was never a reason to give the Russian economy breathing room while it financed a brutal and unlawful war.
Jacobsen: All right, take care.
Tsukerman: You too. Have a good week.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/31
Seyfi Tomar, an independent scholar from Maras, Turkey, explores the intersections of Anatolian Alevism, Zoroastrian heritage, and pre-Islamic beliefs. He shares insights into rituals emphasizing peace, sacred elements like fire and the sun, and a moral code centred on good thoughts, words, and deeds. Tomar highlights the persecution of Zoroastrians in Turkey and the concealment of their identity, the syncretic nature of Alevism, and the value of spiritual integrity over religious conversion. Emphasizing tolerance, he advocates for a world where beliefs are not imposed, and all individuals flourish freely in their spiritual paths.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So Seyfi Tomar is an independent scholar and cultural researcher focused on the intersections of Anatolian Alevism, pre-Islamic belief systems, and Zoroastrian heritage. Born in Maras, Turkey, Tomar documents oral history, symbols, and rituals that connect contemporary Alevi practices to ancient spiritual traditions. His work explores identity, resistance, and sacred ecology through a multidisciplinary lens. Sebi is especially interested in the survival of esoteric knowledge under religious and political pressures, contributing to community dialogue and interfaith understanding. He presents at cultural forums and contributes essays that highlight the enduring legacy of Anatolia’s syncretic spiritual history. Thank you for joining me today. I appreciate it.
Tomar: Thank you for the interview.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the insight into Zoroastrianism. So, who was Zoroaster? For many enmeshed in some Western literature, people mostly know Zoroaster by the name Zarathustra, primarily from Nietzsche’s Thus Spoke Zarathustra.So, is there a relationship between these terms and who Zoroaster was in the original sense?
Tomar: Yes. Zoroaster, or Zarathustra in the Avestan language, was the founder of Zoroastrianism, one of the world’s oldest monotheistic religions. Zoroastrianism originated in ancient Persia, likely around the 2nd millennium BCE, and emphasizes the worship of Ahura Mazda, the Wise Lord, along with principles like truth, righteousness, and the cosmic struggle between order and chaos.
Zoroastrianism, or Mazdayasna as it is known traditionally, is not officially banned in Turkey today. Still, it is not formally recognized or supported by the state. In Iran, it is a legally recognized minority religion, though historically, it faced severe persecution, especially after the Islamic conquest in the 7th century. During the Ottoman Empire, heterodox beliefs such as Alevism were often suppressed or marginalized.
Many of my ancestors, even after centuries, retained elements of Zoroastrian tradition, though often blended into Alevi practices. Alevism is a distinct syncretic tradition within Islam, especially in Turkey, incorporating Shia Islamic, Sufi, and possibly pre-Islamic elements, including influences that may resemble Zoroastrian customs—such as reverence for fire, the sun, and water—but it is essential to clarify that Alevism is not simply a continuation of Zoroastrianism.
Alevism varies significantly by region and community. For many, especially those critical of institutional religion, Alevism has become a spiritual or cultural refuge because it lacks rigid dogma: it does not require mosque attendance, five daily prayers, or strict fasting like Sunni Islam. Instead, it emphasizes internal morality, music (using the saz), and communal worship in clevis (Alevi gathering houses).
This openness may explain why people from different backgrounds—including, historically, some Armenian or Christian families—might have found refuge in Alevi communities and integrated elements of their heritage into local traditions. However, these integrations are complex and vary significantly by geography and historical circumstance.
My family’s traditions reflect Zoroastrian heritage. My parents and grandparents practiced rituals that echo Zoroastrian respect for natural elements, such as honouring the sun at dawn, cleansing the face with water while facing the sun, and treating fire with deep respect, never extinguishing it with water.
Although not strictly Zoroastrian in their current form, these practices suggest a syncretic spiritual lineage that preserves fragments of ancient belief systems within modern cultural frameworks like Alevism.
They have other ways of extinguishing fire. If you’re a firefighter, you wouldn’t be Zoroastrian in the traditional sense because Zoroastrians believe fire is sacred and should not be put out with water. That’s just something I remembered. They have to do it differently. And every house in my town had some symbol of a peacock, which also comes from traditions influenced by Zoroastrianism. We retain so many signs and symbolic elements. That’s what I want to share with you.
Jacobsen: When I used to work at a horse farm for about 27 months, it became a side project: a book of conversations with equestrians. The second volume is ongoing. The owners, one of whom had been on the Canadian Olympic show jumping team in 1984 and 1988, had a peacock fly into her deceased father’s yard, where they were living. That man brought McDonald’s to Canada and founded The Keg restaurant chain and the horse facility called Thunderbird, probably the second largest in Canada. They decided to take a road trip to Saskatchewan and picked up three more peacocks. They just said, “We’ll be gone for four days,” hitched up a trailer. I filled the three-horse trailer with shavings and timothy hay. They drove off and came back with three peacocks. So, if I had any introduction to Zoroastrianism, it was through three peacocks at a horse farm.
Tomar: And as I said, I cannot say all Alevis are Zoroastrian. Right now, there’s a genocide happening in Syria targeting the Alawites, or Nasiris, who are often grouped under broader categories like Alevis. But they are not the same. They are different sects, united mainly in opposition to Sunni orthodoxy, but their sources differ. Even within Turkey, Alevism is not homogenous. If you’re in cities like Sivas, closer to the Black Sea, the Alevis are more likely descendants of Armenians who survived by integrating. In my region, which is closer to Syria and Iran in the southeast, I believe many of us are descendants of Zoroastrians who survived by practicing under the cover of Anatolian Alevism. That’s why there are differences. When we hold large gatherings to discuss what Alevism is in Turkey, there’s always division because the roots of Alevism are diverse. It comes from many sources.
Jacobsen: What is the central message of the Gathas–the sacred hymns of Zoroastrianism?
Tomar: Ah, yes. The Gathas are the oldest part of the Zoroastrian scriptures, written in Old Avestan. The core message is about living in harmony with nature. We didn’t necessarily know we were following it consciously. We were never formally educated about Zoroastrianism. It was always viewed negatively and always prohibited. You couldn’t even say the name. In Turkey, from Prime Minister Erdoğan down to other officials, calling someone a “Zoroastrian” is an insult. It’s used as a slur. That’s how deep the repression goes.
Jacobsen: So there’s even a limitation in self-knowledge due to governmental repression?
Tomar: Absolutely. Right now, if you want to insult someone or accuse them of being evil, you call them a Zoroastrian. That’s how bad it is in Turkey. It means you’re the worst; you’re evil. That’s how they portray it.
Jacobsen: Would you say Turkey is the worst?
Tomar: No, I wouldn’t say that. Iran is probably worse. Turkey isn’t the worst. Syria and Turkey weren’t bad historically, but today, even Syria might be worse because there is either an Islamic regime or no functioning regime at all. That makes things more dangerous. Turkey may have been worse in the past. In the last 15 to 20 years, even though the term “Zoroastrian” is still used as an insult, Turkey has seen some changes. But generally, minorities like Armenians and Zoroastrians in Turkey are very self-disciplined. They hide their traditions. That’s why you don’t see them much in the media.
You know, probably in the beginning, when people opposed it, it made the news, and there were all kinds of court cases and controversies. Now, I don’t think there are many of those anymore.
Jacobsen: What are the roles of Asha and Druj in the moral framework of Zoroastrianism?
Tomar: Asha?
Jacobsen: Truth, order. Druj—falsehood, chaos.
Tomar: I don’t really know in detail because although we had those concepts, I never delved into them. I never had a strong interest in learning more formally. Whatever I absorbed was passed down from my parents, and that’s all I carried forward.
Jacobsen: One thing you mentioned earlier was the significance of fire. For example, in Zoroastrianism, someone wouldn’t become a firefighter because of the sacred status of fire. So, even if a person grows up with some foundational Zoroastrian theology when you live under a repressive regime, most people keep their spiritual practices private.
Tomar: Yes. Even today, our practice includes elders who can be either male or female, which is very different from many traditional religious leadership models. Our leaders can be female—and many of them are—and that’s already very different from what has been dominant over the past thousand years. We also create a circle. The circle is significant; everything begins with that shape.
Within that circle, everyone must be at peace. If someone has had a falling out with another, if someone has hurt another person, or if someone isn’t speaking to them, the circle cannot begin. Prayers cannot start until reconciliation happens. So, before anything else, the leader—male or female—ensures that everyone opens up, expresses what is in their heart, and makes peace with others.
Once peace is restored, the prayers begin, led by the elder. They move around the circle, asking about people’s everyday challenges, concerns, and personal matters. After that, there’s usually a communal movement—what you might describe as a kind of dance or turning—which is a part of the prayer ritual.
But in the beginning, the emphasis is on creating a shared space of peace and openness. Only then can the circle form and the prayer proceed. That has always been the structure in our village settings—it’s a communal tradition deeply tied to locality.
At the end of the ritual, we do something like a whirling movement. It’s similar to what people see in whirling dervishes, but it is not the same.
Jacobsen: Is it similar? Do you mean the whirling dervishes of the Mevlevi Sufi tradition?
Tomar: Yes, but ours is completely different. In our tradition—called Lerdrish—we never turn our back to the leader, who symbolizes the sun. She represents the sun, and we must always keep our face toward her. Even when we whirl, we are mindful not to turn our backs.
Additionally, our foreheads are directed toward the sun, or if we’re indoors or it’s cloudy, we look into our palms. The palms serve as a mirror. By looking into them, we reflect inward, we self-criticize, and we open ourselves emotionally and spiritually. That is part of the prayer.
So, although it may look like the whirling dervishes from the outside, it is entirely different in essence. Whirling dervishes may appear as if they’re in an altered state, spinning endlessly. Still, for us, every movement has a purpose. Every second of the ritual is intentional. As we move, we keep adjusting to ensure our faces remain aligned. It is a profoundly symbolic and disciplined practice.
As soon as you face the leader, you look into your palm as a symbolic mirror—looking inward, opening yourself up, and cleansing yourself emotionally and spiritually. So, it’s different from the whirling dervishes. Whirling dervishes often appear like someone in a trance, just turning and turning in a repetitive ritual. Ours is dynamic and constantly shifting. It’s not about zoning out; it’s about heightened awareness and internal reflection. These are the practices I’ve followed, witnessed, and participated in.
Jacobsen: When you see practices and rituals in Christianity, Judaism, and Islam, how much do you think Zoroastrianism has influenced them?
Tomar: I think confession is one of the clearest examples. Islam doesn’t include a formal confessional ritual, but Christianity does. I believe the practice of confessing comes from Zoroastrianism. In our tradition, you must first confess to begin prayer and join the circle. That confession can be private but happens more often among friends, family, or those in the prayer circle. People admit how they may have harmed someone or if they’ve done something wrong. Everyone in the circle hears it and digests it. Only after that can the prayer begin. You cannot enter the sacred circle without making peace; confession is part of that peace. So yes, I think confession as a spiritual and communal practice has its roots in Zoroastrianism.
Jacobsen: How did Zoroastrianism function as a state religion during the Achaemenid and Sasanian Empires?
Tomar: No idea.
Jacobsen: What does the triad “Good thoughts, good words, good deeds” mean?
Tomar: It’s about behaviour—how you govern yourself. You must behave with your hands, meaning you do not steal or harm others physically. You must behave with your tongue, meaning you don’t speak badly or swear, and you think before you speak. And you must behave with your belly. That’s harder to translate, but it means you respect the sexual boundaries and dignity of others. You don’t go after what belongs to others, sexually or otherwise.
It’s not like in certain interpretations of Islam, where polygamy is allowed and there’s a strong male-centred structure. In Zoroastrianism, there is no gender hierarchy in moral expectations. Respect for sexuality applies to both men and women equally. You have to respect your partner and not pursue others. It’s a form of moral discipline.
So again: behave your hands—do not steal; behave your tongue—speak with care and truth; behave your belly—respect others and yourself in intimate matters. Those are the three pillars we focus on, and they guide how we live.
Jacobsen: How are practices preserved among Parsi and Iranian Zoroastrian communities?
Tomar: I don’t know the difference between Parsis and Alevis in Turkey. I don’t know. We never interact. I know what I’ve experienced. At least, as we say them, the teachings come down to being mindful of your hand, waist, and tongue. That’s what it means—control your actions, your desires, and your words. Or, as it’s often translated, guard your behaviour, body, and speech. But in Turkish, the meaning feels different.
Jacobsen: What are the key festivals?
Tomar: Nauruz is one. Yes, Nauruz. We celebrated it yesterday. Other than Nauruz, I’m not sure.
Jacobsen: What about Sadeh or Mehregan?
Tomar: Maybe in Iran or other communities, but I don’t know in Turkey.
Jacobsen: What about environmental stewardship or reverence for nature?
Tomar: There is an extreme respect for nature. I don’t know exactly why or how, but my parents and people like them respected everything—from ants to cows. Every living being was treated with more care than in other religious or cultural settings in Turkey. I don’t know if it’s from Zoroastrianism, but they were highly mindful. They wouldn’t even kill a mosquito without hesitation. It’s deep, it’s sincere—it goes beyond usual respect. It feels like something more profound than just being kind. It’s almost sacred.
Jacobsen: Was there any influence on Freemasonry or Yezidism?
Tomar: Yezidism? I think it’s very similar. I don’t know all the differences or similarities, but I don’t think they’re that far apart. Still, I don’t know enough to say more. And in my area, we don’t have Yezidis, so I haven’t seen it personally. Maybe in other areas.
Jacobsen: How extensive were Zoroastrian communities before the Islamic conquests?
Tomar: Before the Islamic conquest, Zoroastrians were well-known and respected. It was practiced openly and freely. What I understand is that Zoroastrians are very different from other religions in one key way: they don’t care about spreading their religion. Every other religion seems to have a goal of expansion—to make the entire world adopt their beliefs. But with us, it doesn’t matter if my neighbour is Zoroastrian. We don’t try to convert anyone.
I’ve never seen a Zoroastrian try to convince a non-Zoroastrian to convert. There’s no attempt to proselytize. None of our ancestors taught us to do that. I think that’s the main difference. That’s also why the religion stayed small and marginalized—because it didn’t fight back with expansion. Meanwhile, Christianity, Islam, and Buddhism all have missionary aspects, aiming to spread everywhere. I never understood why that is.
Jacobsen: What are key symbols you’ve noticed in Alevism or Zoroastrianism? Other than the peacock? The peacock, fire, and water—those are central. What else?
Tomar: I can’t think of other symbols off the top of my head, but I’m sure they exist in my life—I never think about them consciously.
Jacobsen: What about the sun and the earth?
Tomar: Oh yes, absolutely—the sun and the earth are central. Along with water and fire, they’re essential elements. We see them as part of the cosmic cycle—everything flows, everything returns. It’s all about circulation. That’s why we use the symbol of the circle. It’s not that we believe in reincarnation the way some religions do—where you die and come back as an animal or a human. We don’t think that. We believe you don’t indeed die—you transform into something else. And that’s why we respect the earth so profoundly. It’s a part of you. Your body, your self, becomes the earth again.
Jacobsen: What about the peacock angel—Tawûsê Melek?
Tomar: The Tawus? Do you mean the peacock angel? I’ve heard of it but don’t know much about it. Those more detailed theological elements—I can’t say because I never practiced in that specific way. It was a natural part of life, not something we studied academically or systematically.
Jacobsen: Can you describe a common ritual you participated in growing up or even now?
Tomar: I haven’t practiced much in Canada, but as a child, the rituals were very special. The village leader—often a woman—would come, and we would create a protective setup outside. Not for protection from outsiders, but more like making a sacred space. We would have twelve people, each with a task, watching the perimeter or handling responsibilities.
Then, the ritual began with confessions. Everyone had to confess their current emotional or interpersonal issues. Once everyone had opened up, the leader would make decisions or offer guidance. After that, the dancing would start. It would go on through the night. It was long, but it was beautiful and meaningful. I used to enjoy it so much.
Jacobsen: In other religions, like Catholicism or Sufism, there are sometimes rituals that involve substances—wine, incense, or even hashish in some mystical practices. Was there any of that in Zoroastrianism?
Tomar: None. Just water—always water. I don’t remember food or drink being part of it at all. No one even seemed to feel hungry or thirsty. It all flowed so smoothly. There was no alcohol, no substances. During the ritual, one person would walk around continuously serving water. That was their task—serving water to everyone all the time. After the ritual, people might drink or relax, but not during prayer. During prayer, it was pure.
Jacobsen: How was respect for elders observed?
Tomar: Respect for elders was extremely strong—but I think that’s true in many cultures and religions. I’m not sure if we were unique in that regard. But yes, deep respect was always shown.
Jacobsen: What about family lineage or customs tied to ancestry? In Islam, lineage is critical. Judaism has its genealogical traditions. Christianity, particularly in medieval Europe, also kept family records in church archives. Was there an emphasis on that in Zoroastrianism?
Tomar: No, I don’t understand that concept in our context. In Alevism and Islam, yes, there’s a focus on lineage. But in Zoroastrianism—at least as I knew it—the ritual leader wasn’t chosen based on bloodline. If someone was seen as worthy, they could take on the leadership role, even if they weren’t the daughter or son of the current leader. The leader decides who follows—not necessarily their child. It’s about merit, not inheritance.
Jacobsen: What about the Fravashi—the guardian spirits in Zoroastrian belief?
Tomar: I’m not sure. We may have something similar, but we probably call it differently. I don’t recognize the word, but the concept may exist in another form within our tradition.
Tomar: Yes. I don’t know a lot of these things. There’s much I’m not familiar with. You’re already more educated than me on some of this.
Jacobsen: What about veneration for the dead or end-of-life rites? And is it “Cem” rituals or “Sem” rituals?
Tomar: Ah, yes. Some rituals are called Cem rituals—spelled C-E-M. Those are our gatherings. I referred to earlier, where we dance, reflect, and face the symbolic sun. You look at your palm like a mirror. Your forehead turns toward the sun; you never turn your back on it or the leader who symbolizes it. That’s why I didn’t recognize the word earlier; it didn’t sound familiar at first when you pronounced it. But yes, Cem rituals are central to our practice.
Jacobsen: What about fasting? How much do you fast?
Tomar: I don’t fast at all. It’s just not part of my habits. Some do, however.
Jacobsen: In Alevi customs in Turkey, which parts of Zoroastrian life are practiced publicly, and which parts are kept private—especially under Erdoğan’s regime?
Tomar: Everything is kept private. No one says they’re Zoroastrian. Everyone says they’re Muslim. You are required to list your religion as “Muslim” on your ID. And this predates Erdoğan—it’s not new. It’s always been that way. Nothing changed. It’s the same system, the same repression.
More recently, Erdoğan removed the mandatory religious declaration from national ID cards, so you’re not forced to expose yourself openly anymore. But even so, if you are known in your village or community, they will label you Alevi—but no one, I mean no one, ever dares say openly they are Zoroastrian. I’ve never seen anyone with that kind of courage in Turkey.
Jacobsen: What kinds of slurs are used against people from your community in Turkey or Iran?
Tomar: The slurs… yes. People accuse us of all sorts of things. Because we pray with candles and don’t separate men and women during worship, they accuse us of group sex or other immoral behaviour. They slander us simply because we’re different. Our leadership can be male or female, and everything is family-oriented. But people twist that and use it to insult us.
I imagine it’s the same in Iran, though I’m not as familiar with the specifics there.
Jacobsen: And fasting—you mentioned something more spiritual. Could you elaborate?
Tomar: Yes. In our tradition, there’s fasting of silence or refraining from eating meat. But I never consciously practiced it formally. Maybe I was living it as a part of daily life. The only one I truly know is fasting in the form of good thoughts, good words, and good deeds. That’s the one I’ve seen practiced and even used as a form of purification or discipline.
Someone might be asked to take time in silence, to eat less, or to purify their thoughts—not as punishment but as a way to reset spiritually. So yes, it’s less about food and more about purifying the mind. That emphasis on purifying one’s mentality was always central.
Jacobsen: We’re getting close to the end. What’s your big message—your central insight—from practicing within this tradition?
Tomar: My big message? No one should need to spread their beliefs or impose them on others. Zoroastrianism never taught us to do that. And, across all cultures and traditions, we should live that way. Let people live freely without trying to convert or dominate. That’s the core of how I try to live.
If you are Muslim, if you are Catholic, if you are Republican, Democrat, liberal, or conservative—why do you have to force other people to be like you? Let everybody be their colour, freedom, and flower. That’s where it comes from—Zarathustra. And that, I believe, is the best way to live.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Beautifully said. Thank you very much.
Tomar: Thank you, too.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/30
Fostering Healthy Masculinity in Our Kids: A Humanist Parenting Webinar
Tuesday, June 10 at 7:00 PM ET
Register on Zoom: https://bit.ly/JuneMasculinityAHA
Washington, DC—The American Humanist Association (AHA) proudly announces the next in the Humanist Parenting webinars: Fostering Healthy Masculinity in Our Kids. On Tuesday, June 10, at 7:00 PM ET, this event brings leading voices in progressive parenting and men’s health for a conversation on raising boys into emotionally intelligent and compassionate men.
Featured speakers include Dr. Jed Diamond, LCSW, a psychotherapist and internationally known author of work on men’s health, and Alastair Lichten, author of the Humanist Dad blog and a longtime advocate for secular education. This discussion explores outdated ideas of masculinity hindering emotional development and helping children thrive.
“As parents, we all want to raise kind, confident, emotionally healthy kids,” said Fish Stark, AHA Executive Director and webinar host. “Too often, boys are taught to suppress their feelings or equate vulnerability with weakness. This event is about rethinking those messages—and giving parents the tools to raise boys who embrace their full humanity.”
Whether raising toddlers or teens, the webinar provides valuable insight. It also gives practical advice on modelling and nurturing healthy masculinity from a humanist perspective.
This event showcases AHA’s commitment to supporting humanist families and caregivers. All webinars in the series are recorded and made available on the AHA’s Humanist Parenting YouTube Playlist. Additional resources are available via the Humanist Parenting channels on Discord.
About the Speakers:
Dr. Jed Diamond, a licensed psychotherapist and founder of MenAlive.com, holds a Ph.D. in International Health and a Master’s in Social Work. He has written 17 books—including Long Live Men!, The Irritable Male Syndrome and My Distant Dad. He contributes to leading media outlets around the world. In 2025, he will launch a new course series on Gender-Specific Medicine and Men’s Health.
Alastair Lichten, a progressive humanist parent and author of the Humanist Dad blog, led education campaigns at the UK’s National Secular Society for eight years and spent three years building community with Humanists UK. He previously volunteered with Camp Quest UK and now lives in Brighton with his family, continuing to write about parenting, relationships, and humanist values.
Media Contact:
Fish Stark
Executive Director, American Humanist Association
About the American Humanist Association:
The American Humanist Association advocates for the rights and viewpoints of humanists, atheists, and other nontheists. Since 1941, AHA has promoted humanist values through education, policy, and community. Learn more at americanhumanist.org.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/30
Melissa Bauknight, Founder and Chief Visionary of The Nova Global, transitioned from a successful medical sales career to entrepreneurship, building a community for soul-led women leaders. She emphasizes collaboration over competition, promoting relational, authentic, and purpose-driven leadership. Bauknight discusses balancing ambition with personal health, modelling soft strength through vulnerability, and supporting sustainable growth. Her work integrates nervous system training and AI tools to enhance efficiency and mission alignment. Through The Nova Global, Bauknight mentors women to trust their intuition, cultivate authentic leadership, and create meaningful, enduring businesses rooted in community and personal empowerment.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Melissa Bauknight. Melissa Bauknight is the Founder and Chief Visionary of The Nova Global, a community empowering soul-led women to lead with authenticity and purpose. After a successful fifteen-year career in corporate medical sales, Melissa transitioned into entrepreneurship to create spaces where women thrive through collaboration, not competition. The Nova offers global and local “constellations” that foster deep connection, mentorship, and holistic success. A former top-ranked network marketing leader and certified Business Alignment Coach, Melissa blends strategy with soul to help women align their careers with their values. She has been featured in Authority Magazine and HappiFul for her insights on feminine leadership and community-driven growth. Thank you for joining me today. Why transition from corporate medical sales to founding The Nova Global? The money was not immediately better.
Melissa Bauknight: There was a transition period of about six years between my career in medical device sales and the launch of Nova Global. During this time, I experienced what I would describe as an awakening—a deepening of myself through personal growth, work, and exploration.
I truly loved my career, and I was successful. It is not a classic story of burnout or dissatisfaction leading to reinvention. Instead, it was a gradual evolution: I began identifying more deeply with personal passions and stepping into my next era of leadership—one grounded in ambition, service, and authenticity.
As I uncovered these new parts of myself, I felt a strong calling to turn what I was learning into ways to empower others. A pivotal step in this journey was working with Beautycounter, a mission-driven company in direct sales and advocacy. That experience taught me how deeply I care about aligning with meaningful missions and about the power of mobilizing communities to create systemic change.
All of these experiences fueled the vision for The Nova Global, which had been quietly forming inside me for years. While it is not — at least yet — as financially lucrative as my medical sales career, it is far more fulfilling. It is not about a money grab but about purpose-driven leadership and service.
Jacobsen: The emphasis on collaboration over competition really contrasts with the competitive nature of traditional market-driven sales environments. So, how do you re-envision leadership when reframing it as collaboration rather than competition? The first thing that comes to mind is that leadership becomes lateral and relational rather than vertical and hierarchical.
Bauknight: That is the future of leadership. It is less about “power over” and more about “power with.” When I look at what I have been able to accomplish in my life — and the capacity to have a vision as big as I have — the only reason I am able to execute it is because of the generosity of so many people who have been in similar businesses, both women and men, who have said, “I really believe in what you are doing. Let me open a door for you. Let me make an introduction for you.”
I am here to help other purpose-driven people fulfill their dreams. It is less about thinking, “We are the only organization that can do this,” and more about asking, “How do we reach across the table? How do we bring people into the fold?” So, we are less isolated, less siloed, less lonely — where people feel like they are bearing the burden of building their businesses alone — and instead come together to do it more efficiently, with more joy, more support, and a greater sense of being seen.
A lot of the things we do not normally associate with career growth—like having fun, listening to your body, and honouring your health—get lost in more traditional models. Traditional leadership often emphasizes grinding it out, ignoring body signals, powering through health issues, and even trampling over people to climb to the top.
I do not want to live that way, and I do not think most people do either. Collaborative leadership is a more joy-filled, love-filled, positive way of exerting influence, and nobody has to lose in the process.
Jacobsen: Many of these leadership styles can typically be framed economically, in terms of opportunity costs or trade-offs. What are the trade-offs when switching from competitive to collaborative leadership?
I should add a caveat: leadership effectiveness really depends on context. If the future you are referencing is one where collaborative approaches become more effective, what are the trade-offs as we transition into that period—where collaboration becomes more salient or pertinent than competition?
Bauknight: I can definitely speak to that, because I’ve lived it.
When you lead collaboratively—when you actually care about the whole human, not just their output—you are playing a longer game. And honestly, it can cost you in the short term. Sometimes you hold onto people longer than you should. Sometimes projects move slower because you’re making space for real conversations, real emotions, and real life happening behind the scenes.
It’s way messier than the old model of “just hit the number, just do your job.”
And if you’re someone who was trained to be fast, efficient, and results-driven (like I was), it can feel frustrating at times. Like, couldn’t we just move faster if we didn’t have to hold all of this?
But here’s the thing: people are done performing. They’re done compartmentalizing to survive at work. And if leaders don’t evolve to meet that, they’re going to lose their people—period.
So yes, there’s a short-term trade-off in terms of speed and maybe even productivity if you’re measuring it the old way. But the cost of not shifting is way bigger: turnover, disengagement, burnout, resentment, and ultimately, companies that become irrelevant because nobody wants to work for them anymore.
People will stay longer. They’ll care more. They’ll build with you instead of just working for you—if you’re willing to lead with more humanity and less control.
It’s slower at first. But it’s more sustainable. And honestly, it’s the only leadership model that’s going to work in the future we’re walking into.
Jacobsen: You are seeing this dynamic not necessarily directly commented on, but almost directly, in interactions that simply would not have happened before the 2020s.
For instance, you have prominent conservative corporate-branded journalists like Megyn Kelly having conversations with liberal online activist journalists like Ana Kasparian — discussing difficulties younger professional women are facing, like in dating life and professional balance.
I am not focusing specifically on the content of those conversations but more on what they suggest: a more profound cultural commentary and a search for a more balanced life while still pursuing professional aims.
Do you think that looking at the whole person and promoting collaborative leadership are aligned with the cultural shifts people like Ana and Megyn are pointing toward?
Bauknight: Yes, that is what we want. Speaking for myself, I carry a lot. I wear a lot of hats—I’m a mother, a business owner, a wife, a friend, a community leader—and that’s true for so many women I know.
And honestly? I don’t even know what “balance” means anymore.
If we’re defining balance as everything getting equal attention all the time, that’s just not real life. It’s completely unrealistic.
But what is real, and what we’re asking for, is the ability to manage what’s on our plates without completely losing ourselves in the process. Maybe even thrive while doing it, which, yes, feels like a lofty goal some days.
And that cannot happen when the scales are so far tipped in one direction. At a minimum, it has to include taking care of our personal health, right?
The truth is, the way we’ve been conditioned to lead, especially as women, is extremely sacrificial. It’s take care of everyone else first, and then if there’s anything left over, you might get a piece of it for yourself.
And that model is broken. It’s not sustainable. It’s not leadership, it’s martyrdom.
If we want to build careers, communities, and companies that last, we have to start leading differently. We have to look at the whole human: their health, their well-being, and their life beyond the quarterly goals.
Jacobsen: People in private typically go to leaders of organizations or people they know who have deep experience in a particular industry and share their concerns — younger people expressing their anxieties to older people. What have younger women aspiring to be leaders in different industries expressed to you about their anxieties?
Bauknight: One of the biggest things I hear from younger women is this deep desire to be seen.
It’s not always the first thing they say, but underneath their fears about career paths, leadership, or belonging, there’s this thread: Will I be accepted if I show up as my full self?
There is this “good girl” training we received, where we are taught that if we show certain parts of ourselves—if we are disruptive, too much, too big, too bold, if we use our voice—then we are bad, wrong, less-than, or not following the rules.
What I’m seeing now is a generational shift. Women in my age group—I’m in my forties—are the ones doing a lot of the heavy lifting of unlearning.
“Can I actually show up differently?”
“Can I bring compassion into leadership?”
“Can I make new rules around this?”
“Can I show my humanity and still be taken seriously?”
Younger women, though—they’re coming in with a different energy. They still feel the pressure to perform, to belong. But it’s not as deeply cemented yet. They’re quicker to question the system. They want work that feels meaningful. They want community. They don’t just want to climb a ladder, they want to build something worth climbing.
When younger women come into our community, they often say, “Wow, you are doing something disruptive. You left a very traditional path, and it is inspiring to imagine something else for myself.”
And that’s the beautiful thing: whether you’re 22 or 62, the questions women are asking now are remarkably similar. What if we could do it differently? What if we didn’t have to leave parts of ourselves behind to succeed?
Jacobsen: For two years, I did ethical and sustainable fashion journalism and spoke to a lot of business owners in that space. Most of them were small to medium-sized businesses. In that industry, you sometimes find a little bit of borderline “crystal” kind of stuff.
But broadly speaking, the premise was legitimate — sustainable sourcing and production of textiles, clothing, and garments. Most small and medium-sized businesses were women-led, regardless of where they were located globally.
If the emphasis is on collaboration rather than competition — so it is not so single-minded to the point where you need to take ketamine for depression — does that hurt the intensity of focus on the bottom line, even though the person is psychologically much healthier?
In other words, could it limit the scaling of the business? It might slow it down.
Bauknight: Yes, it can slow it down. And this is something I have had to personally reckon with in my own growth — sustainable growth versus being in a rush to meet certain goals.
Yes, it can slow scaling, but it depends on your priorities. I do not want to grow a company so quickly that we have a great run for five or ten years and then crash and burn because we cannot sustain what we built or because we failed to model our own values.
And I battle with it—of course. These are the financial goals we would like to meet for our family, our business, and our impact. But at the end of the day, what matters to me is building a legacy, not something that comes out hot and fast, is financially successful out of the gate, but lacks sustainability.
Jacobsen: There is a famous quote in philosophy: “All of Western philosophy is a footnote to Plato.” And I mention that because most commentary is not necessarily new if you dig a little deeper. The same is true for prototypes of leadership styles, too.
So, thinking about yourself leading an organization with a collaborative leadership style: who, from older generations — living or deceased — do you believe embodied some of those principles? A man or a woman who demonstrated a collaborative leadership style and contributed to a sustainable, legacy-based model?
Bauknight: Without diving too deeply into the second part about the economic model, one of the things I have been studying — and sitting in a circle with, personally — is what I would call the sacred feminine.
When we look back at how women have gathered since the beginning of time, we see that women were the temple keepers, the priestesses, and the wisdom keepers of communities. Women cared for each other’s families and supported each other in very communal ways.
So, instead of referencing a modern business figure, I see it as a remembrance — a return — to how we had always related to one another before systemic shifts altered those natural dynamics.
It is not new. It is ancient—an instinctual, natural way of being in community with one another. And that has been one of the most beautiful parts of this work: it feels natural and instinctual.
Bauknight: When you experience it, it feels like deep permission. You just know—this is how I want to do business, how I want to lead, how I want to live.
It creates a continuity across your whole life. It’s not, “Here’s how I show up in business, and here’s who I am at home.” It’s this is who I am, everywhere. That kind of leadership isn’t something you perform. It’s something you become.
Jacobsen: What is soft strength? You mentioned it. What is it?
Bauknight: Oh gosh. It is something I have worked hard to embody.
It is a vulnerability. I used to believe strength meant not showing what was actually going on — powering through, putting on an “everything’s fine” face, and getting the job done.
But from my personal experience, people value appropriate vulnerability — right? Not trauma dumping or oversharing, but being willing to say, “I am on the same playing field as you.” Yes, I am the founder of this organization, but I am also in life with you. I am navigating similar things.
Soft strength feels grounded. It feels rooted. It holds a presence in the room without needing to overpower it. It is not hierarchical — I do not need to control people — but I can still lead the space.
I can continue to build and expand my capacity to hold more while not overriding my intuition, vulnerability, and authenticity. I truly believe it is one of the most powerful forms of strength when you can have both strong leadership and real authenticity.
Jacobsen: I want to touch on authentic leadership and the use of these intelligent algorithms. A big topic for quite a while has been narcissism — the debate around whether narcissism is rising in American culture. Some argue it is growing; others argue it is not.
But one common point that many experts agree on is this: if narcissism is increasing, authenticity is an antidote. When you deal with authenticity, you are dealing with the authentic self — not a false or performative one.
So:
- How do you mentor or provide a space for women to lead authentically so they can make realistic judgments and build sustainable businesses?
- And second, how do you realistically and ethically use AI systems to help build a business without compromising those values?
Bauknight: When I think about mentoring women to lead authentically and build sustainable businesses, I look at how we gather, whether virtually or in person, as a practice field.
I was a competitive athlete—I played softball through college as a pitcher—and one thing I know is that building any real skill set takes practice. Authentic leadership isn’t different. You have to practice showing up differently, especially in spaces that feel safe enough to try, stumble, and try again.
So first and foremost, we model it.
At The Nova, we have specific values and ways of holding the room that allow women to see what authenticity actually looks, feels, and sounds like. It’s not just a concept—it’s a lived experience.
Recently, at our Denver chapter gathering, our local leader, Emily, was going through an incredibly tough season of life—and a particularly hard day. She called me right before the event, melting down. She said, “I literally can’t do it. I can’t hold space for everyone tonight.”
I told her, “I’m coming anyway—and I’ll lead it with you, or for you, whatever you need.”
She stayed. And what we modeled that night was something I’ll never forget. I didn’t share her personal story, but when the group arrived, I explained: “Normally I come to participate, to receive. But today, Emily asked for support—and so I’m here to lead alongside her.”
I made it clear: Emily’s need for support didn’t diminish her leadership one bit. In fact, it showed the strength it takes to ask for help. That kind of visible, real-time leadership modeling created a ripple effect. The number of women who came up afterward saying, “That was so powerful—to watch how you co-led and allowed her to just be where she was without judgment” was overwhelming.
This is what I believe: Authenticity isn’t something you tell people to be. It’s something you show them, over and over again. And then you give them safe places to practice it themselves.
We intentionally design our gatherings with that in mind—through curated conversations, specific questions, breakout groups, and group shares—so women can experience the safety of being seen exactly as they are.
Because real authenticity needs two things:
(1) To know you’re not alone in what you’re experiencing, and
(2) To feel safe enough, inside your body and your nervous system, to take the mask off.
We also bring in experts in nervous system regulation because safe space isn’t just an emotional idea—it’s biological. Authenticity can’t survive if you don’t feel safe in your body. Many of our facilitators are trained in neurosomatic work, helping women understand what’s happening inside their bodies, how to rewire old patterns, and how to actually feel safe holding new behaviors. It’s deep work, and it’s vital.
Then, pivoting to AI, this entire business has been built with AI’s help. I was actually coaching someone today on using AI for business growth, and I told them, “Think of it like a thought partner. It’s still garbage in, garbage out.”
If we’re talking specifically about ChatGPT — the main AI tool we use — the quality of what you get back entirely depends on the quality of what you put in. What it’s helped me do — and what it’s helped many of my clients and the business owners we work with — is stay firmly in our zones of genius.
Our business is only eighteen months old, but the amount we’ve been able to create and scale would blow most people’s minds. I truly believe that success comes from a few key things: we live by what we stand for, and we’ve leveraged AI to support our mission, not replace it.
We can now complete projects in hours that used to take weeks — sometimes even months. We can input our brand guidelines, our voice, our personal stories, and have AI help us create content that often turns out even better than what we could have manually pieced together under pressure.
The number of policies, procedures, templates, and event designs we’ve been able to refine has dramatically increased our creative flow. And still — we use our authentic voice. AI doesn’t replace that; it amplifies it.
Truthfully, AI has probably saved me over $100,000 in hiring costs. As a self-funded small business owner, I wouldn’t have been able to bring my vision to life at this scale without the support of a tool like this.
If you stay in your zone of genius — and, of course, we still hire people to do work that AI can’t — but if you use AI as a virtual assistant, a thought partner, or a brainstorming collaborator, the level of efficiency it allows is remarkable.
Honestly, I don’t think I would be as mentally stable today without it. And that’s giving it a lot of credit, but truly — when you consider everything I’m holding between business, family, and personal life — it has made me more efficient in every area: business operations, meal planning, vacation planning, kids’ birthday parties — you name it.
I can hop on, get what I need faster, and move forward more easily. AI has been an incredible support tool — one that’s allowed us to stay focused on our bigger mission while spending far less time slogging through the backend work.
Jacobsen: Final question. What are your favourite quotes by women, by leaders, or on women’s leadership?
Bauknight: Well, one of my favourite quotes is my own — and not to be arrogant — but I always say, “I have never met a confused woman.” I believe that we are taught not to trust ourselves.
One hundred percent of the time — and I have been in deep, vulnerable conversations, having been a business coach for eight years — when people say, “I do not know what to do next,” and when I dig deeper, they know with incredible specificity.
They can tell you the type of plant in the corner of their future office or what the person at the front desk looks like—they have that clarity inside them. We need to learn how to trust it. That is the only personal quote I love to share.
Another quote I love — and I had to look it up because it escaped me for a second — is:
“The journey of a thousand miles begins with a single step.”
Jacobsen: It is a pretty good one.
Bauknight: Because it is true. When I first moved to Colorado — and did not know anyone — and took a big, bold leap, that was the first thing I purchased: a small bracelet with that quote on it.
And that is really how you get there — one tiny step at a time. Those micro-actions, those micro-steps, bring big visions to life. So, that one resonates with me.
Jacobsen: Melissa, thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate your expertise, and it was nice to meet you.
Bauknight: Thank you, Scott. Cheers.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/29
Teresa Omondi-Adeitan, Deputy Executive Director of FAWE, discusses women’s leadership in Africa at CSW69. Despite international agreements like the Maputo Protocol mandating gender parity, implementation remains weak due to cultural and political resistance. Rwanda exemplifies deliberate leadership in women’s inclusion, but many nations lack enforcement. Economic arguments have proven effective in convincing male leaders of the benefits of gender equality. FAWE emphasizes early leadership training for girls and boys to normalize women’s leadership. Challenges persist, including campaign financing and election-related gender violence, but institutionalizing gender equity, rather than relying on individual leaders, is essential for lasting progress.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Name and title.
Teresa Omondi-Adeitan: My name is Teresa Omondi-Adeitan. I’m the Deputy Executive Director of the Forum for African Women Educationalists, commonly known as FAWE.
Jacobsen: Today, we are at the 68th session of the Commission on the Status of Women (CSW68), marking Beijing+30 and the 25th anniversary of UN Security Council Resolution 1325 on Women, Peace, and Security. It’s a significant year for these discussions.
Recently, we have seen political shifts, particularly within the American administration and among other political leaders, including autocrats, who view these developments as beneficial to their agendas. However, these changes are not favourable for women globally in terms of political representation, economic participation, and gender parity in general.
First, taking a broad perspective, what has been your major takeaway from this particular Commission compared to previous ones?
Omondi-Adeitan: This is an important commission because this year marks 30 years since the 1995 Fourth World Conference on Women in Beijing. That conference is especially significant because it led to adopting the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action, which remains a comprehensive framework for advancing gender equality. Many of the women’s rights we enjoy today are based on that declaration and the commitments made by governments worldwide.
It is inspiring to walk into this conference and see some women present at the Beijing Conference still championing gender equality and pushing for advancements in political, economic, social, and cultural participation.
Being here during this conference is about evaluating our progress. How far have we come? Have we achieved the commitments made 30 years ago? Are we living up to the promises made by those who came before us?
At the same time, I have observed significant setbacks. Progress often feels like taking one step forward and two steps back. The question I keep asking is: What is going wrong? Why are we unable to sustain the gains we have made?
This conference has been particularly valuable because I have had the opportunity to hear perspectives from different countries. These discussions are shaping my thinking, especially as the Deputy Executive Director of FAWE. They are prompting me to reconsider our approaches and strategies for achieving and maintaining women’s rights.
Jacobsen: We just came from a session in the Church Center for the United Nations (CCUN) on the eighth floor. One thing that stood out was the striking similarity in shared stories. They were not identical, but regardless of the country or whether someone comes from a background of disability or not, the emotions and words used to describe the current situation were remarkably similar. There is a clear sense that we are in a period of pushback. When reflecting on that pushback in the context of FAWE’s programs, what are you considering for the sustainability of those programs and the efforts they advance?
Omondi-Adeitan: We discussed women’s participation in politics in the session we just attended. At FAWE, we recognize that early intervention is crucial. Too often, women are expected to run for political office or serve in public leadership roles without prior exposure to leadership experiences.
As an education-focused organization, we aim to empower girls and women through education in Africa. Leadership development must start early, equipping young girls with the skills, confidence, and knowledge necessary to step into leadership roles later in life.
We are using the education system to teach girls early on to become leaders. As early as five years old, a child can begin serving as a class prefect or class president, depending on the terminology used in different countries. They can already be given responsibilities in grade six or seven. By the time they reach grade nine, they may even lead a school as a school president.
This way, when they get to university and beyond, and someone approaches them with a leadership opportunity, they are ready because they have already gained experience. In many parts of Africa, particularly among women, leadership exposure often comes only after completing university. The common refrain has been, “Oh, but there is this position, but no women are interested.” It is not that women are uninterested, but rather that this is the first time they are told they can lead. Too often, they are quickly processed or hastily trained for leadership at the last moment.
At FAWE, we aim to change this by creating a pool of young women prepared for leadership roles from an early age. It can be as simple as being a class monitor responsible for taking books to the teacher for marking, leading the Girl Guides in school, or heading the debate club. These small responsibilities help normalize leadership so that when greateropportunities arise, it is neither a surprise nor an overwhelming challenge. Our approach within the education sector is to embed leadership training early, ensuring that young women are already equipped with the necessary skills when they enter public life.
We hope this will increase the number of women willing to enter public leadership. When young girls start experiencing criticism early on, they become more resilient. By the time they face the more intense scrutiny that comes with public leadership, they will have already toughened up and know what to expect.
Jacobsen: One critical aspect of leadership is skill-building. In a session I attended a few days ago, a European delegate noted that women are often over-mentored but underprovided with opportunities in their cultural context. They receive extensive guidance but are not given the actual chance to lead. The question then becomes: How do we balance early leadership opportunities with continued mentorship so that young women receive training and have real platforms to exercise their skills?
Omondi-Adeitan: There are two primary public spaces for leadership. One is within government institutions, such as serving as a minister, a permanent secretary, or a leader in a state-owned corporation. This type of leadership does not require substantial financial resources but depends on skills, positioning, and opportunities. However, the most persistent challenge remains political leadership. We all know that running for office requires resources, and that is where many women face significant barriers.
There is bribery, issues of positioning, and many other challenges. Women often lack the financial resources needed to run effective campaigns, leading to what some call being “over-skilled.” These women have the expertise and are mentors, but they cannot afford a campaign tracker, campaign T-shirts, or television advertisements to promote their candidacy. I have heard this concern repeatedly.
At the same time, development partners who advocate for women in leadership are often unwilling to fund essential campaign expenses, such as fuel for campaign vehicles, advertising costs, or campaign materials like T-shirts. I have worked in contexts where we had to be creative with available resources. If a development partner provides funding for a workshop to train women instead of only producing standard information, education, and communication (IEC) materials, we can also use that opportunity to create campaign T-shirts. This is simply the reality of the political landscape—while it is possible to tell women that they do not need T-shirts to campaign, their male counterparts will be everywhere with banners, posters, and branded materials. Women candidates cannot afford to be left behind in visibility.
This is how we are innovative with development partner funding while organizing efforts to secure direct campaign financing. Running a political campaign is extremely expensive in Africa. In theory, Campaign finance regulations exist but are among the least enforced. There are legal limits on campaign spending, but these limits are routinely ignored, and little is done to address violations, especially during election periods.
Beyond financial barriers, women also face election-related gender-based violence. During campaign seasons, women struggle the most to access financial support and campaign platforms. It is also the time when they are reminded of their family roles and their supposed “feminine nature,” often as a tactic to discourage them from running. Even when a woman has the opportunity to stand as a candidate, she must also navigate these societal pressures and cultural barriers.
I completely understand and agree with women who say they feel over-skilled but lack the resources to compete effectively.
Jacobsen: It is like football—one may have the skills to play, but if they are competing against a team that has proper gear, including socks, boots, and training facilities, while they have none, it will never be a fair competition. It is a bit like a Tom Brady situation—being highly skilled but unable to access the necessary resources, forcing one to take work elsewhere, like at T-Mobile.
One of the most surprising things I learned from that session was that Africa has both the lowest and the highest rates of political participation among women. The variance in participation across the continent is striking. Why is that?
Omondi-Adeitan: The type of leadership and the deliberate efforts of those in power play a critical role. Rwanda, for example, constantly sets the benchmark for Africa, as it has the highest percentage of women in parliament worldwide. However, this is not just about numbers—it is about the type of leadership and the purposeful, deliberate inclusion of women. President Paul Kagame has intentionally integrated women into leadership at all levels. His approach is strategic, from appointing women to his cabinet to ensuring strong female representation in parliament and public office.
Finding similarly deliberate leaders across Africa remains a challenge. Why is this level of intention necessary? The answer lies in deep-seated socio-cultural norms. Many African societies have long been structured around male dominance in leadership. If a male leader is already in power, it often requires significant resources to shift his perception before he can even consider appointing women to his cabinet or other leadership positions. Research has confirmed that Rwanda’s success is not just about having policies—it is about the political will of the country’s leadership to implement those policies.
Most African nations have policies mandating at least 30% female representation in government. However, implementation is inconsistent. Achieving gender parity requires a deliberate commitment from the highest levels of leadership. Without strong political will, these quotas remain theoretical rather than practical.
Jacobsen: Which country has the lowest level of political participation, and what is the key factor behind it?
Omondi-Adeitan: The biggest factor is cultural and religious influence. In some regions, religion plays a major role in shaping leadership norms. Certain interpretations of religious doctrines, whether in Islam or Christianity, reinforce the belief that women should not hold leadership positions.
For example, countries with dominant Islamic or Catholic populations tend to have lower female political participation. However, the extent of women’s exclusion depends on how religion and culture intersect in different societies. It is not about the faith but how leadership roles are perceived within these religious frameworks.
I know of a community in Kenya where male leaders formally convened a conference and collectively declared that their culture does not permit women to lead. They refused to support a female candidate, not because she lacked qualifications, but because leadership had always been seen as a male role. They eventually accepted a woman in office because the law required them to elect a female representative. So, what happens in such situations?
Continuous sensitization and engagement are necessary for young people because their perceptions are already shifting. They are growing up in a slightly different cultural environment and are adapting more quickly to global norms.
You previously asked Senator Reddy Kengueve about economics as the key factor, suggesting everything else flows from economic independence. Your question made sense, but our discussion now highlights that religion and traditionalism play an equally significant role. Economic independence is crucial, but deep-rooted religious and cultural traditions can sometimes outweigh economic considerations in determining women’s access to leadership.
Jacobsen: What about policy and law? If a strong policy or law is in place, does that guarantee change, or is implementation still a major obstacle?
Omondi-Adeitan: As I mentioned earlier, most African countries already have policies promoting women’s representation. I do not have the exact statistics, but almost every African country has a 30% female leadership quota. In theory, the framework is there. The problem is implementation and genuine commitment to enforcing these policies.
Take the Maputo Protocol, for example—the African Charter on Human and Peoples’ Rights on Women’s Rights in Africa. This protocol mandates equal representation and explicitly calls for 50/50 gender parity. Almost all African nations have signed it, with only a few exceptions. Yet, despite this formal commitment, gender parity in political representation remains elusive.
So, the real question is: If African countries have signed these agreements and adopted gender quotas, why is representation still so low? The answer is that policy alone does not guarantee change. It comes down to leadership and political will. The leaders in power decide whether or not policies are fully implemented.
For example, if a president sees that an election has resulted in less than 30% female representation, they should take steps to nominate additional women to meet the quota. However, if the leadership lacks the commitment to act, the policy remains meaningless.
Look at Botswana and Rwanda—two countries that have excelled in women’s political representation. Their success is not just due to laws but to leaders who actively enforce those laws. The problem is that leadership enforcement should not be necessary—the law itself should be enough. Unfortunately, in many cases, the implementation of gender policies depends on the goodwill of an individual leader rather than a systemic commitment to gender equality.
This raises an important concern: What happens when a strong leader leaves office? For example, President Kagame of Rwanda has deliberated on promoting women’s leadership. But if something happened to him, would Rwanda’s gender progress be sustained, or would it regress? These are the challenges we face—ensuring that gender equality is embedded institutionally, not just dependent on individual leaders.
Regarding laws and policies, most African countries are already clear on women’s representation. They have signed international protocols and legislation beyond national constitutions, committing to gender equality on paper.
Jacobsen: If the linchpin of change is leadership, and the individuals with the most political control and decision-making power are men, what has been the catalyst for shifting the mentality of those men who have demonstrated the political will to align with the Maputo Protocol and existing gender policies?
Omondi-Adeitan: One of the biggest catalysts for changing male leaders’ perspectives has been demonstrating the economic benefits of having women in leadership. We have learned—especially in Kenya—that the most effective way to convince governments to support women’s representation is to translate gender equality into economic value.
When women’s leadership is framed in economic terms, governments stop and listen. This is how we secured the women’s representation seats in Kenya. Unfortunately, the reality is that money talks, and when gender equality is shown to be economically beneficial, male leaders are more likely to take action.
No country can afford to leave half its population behind and still expect strong economic growth. The evidence is clear—economies that actively include women in leadership perform better than those that do not. That economic proof has been a key strategy for influencing decision-makers.
Beyond policy advocacy, FAWE believes in starting early. We do not only work with girls—we also engage boys to normalize women’s leadership from a young age. If we instill these values early, future generations will not have to fight the same battles.
I want to believe that by the time my 11-year-old daughter and my 4-year-old daughter reach my age, their struggles will be different. Their debates will no longer be about whether women deserve a seat at the table—instead, they will engage in intellectual discussions about policy and governance rather than basic representation.
We are working hard to change perceptions early so that the next generation does not have to fight for what should already be accepted.
Jacobsen: Thank you for your time.
Omondi-Adeitan: Thanks, I appreciate it.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/28
Edwin Aiwazian is a leading California trial attorney and co-founder of Lawyers for Justice, PC, where he spearheads a high-impact legal team committed to justice and equity. Known for his courtroom excellence and principled advocacy, Edwin has built a reputation for standing up for exploited workers and victims of negligence. His unwavering belief in ethical representation drives his mission to protect the rights of the marginalized. Edwin’s leadership has positioned him as a trusted voice in legal circles and a tireless defender of state-based protections for vulnerable communities. Learn more: calljustice.com/team/edwin-aiwazian.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How does the Trump administration’s lawsuit against Maine redefine federal versus state authority?
Edwin Aiwazian: It challenges the idea that states can make their own decisions about fairness and inclusion in schools. If the federal government wins here, it shifts the balance; taking decisions out of local hands and giving Washington more control.
Jacobsen: What legal arguments has the federal government used to justify transgender sports bans?
Aiwazian: They’re leaning on a narrow interpretation of Title IX, claiming it’s about biological sex only. But that ignores court rulings that say gender identity matters too. It’s a one sided reading of the law to support a political agenda.
Jacobsen: If the courts side with the federal government, what precedent might this set?
Aiwazian: It opens the door for top-down mandates on any number of civil rights issues. Today it’s sports, but what’s next? Bathrooms, school curriculum, workplace protections? Once that door’s open, it’s hard to close.
Jacobsen: Could this case become a landmark decision?
Aiwazian: Absolutely. If it reaches the Supreme Court, this could be one of those defining cases that shapes how Title IX is interpreted for years. It would impact not just sports, but civil rights law more broadly.
Jacobsen: How does this legal action affect the autonomy of states?
Aiwazian: It weakens it. It sends a message that states can’t chart their own course when it comes to equality, even when their laws reflect the will of the people. California should be concerned, this could undercut our own protections.
Jacobsen: How does this conflict reflect Title IX interpretative tensions under different federal administrations?
Aiwazian: Title IX has become a football game. Until courts draw a line, we’re going to keep seeing these wild swings in interpretation.
Jacobsen: What are the long-term consequences transgender youth may face?
Aiwazian: They’re the ones caught in the crossfire. Exclusion from sports isn’t just about the game; it’s about identity, belonging, and mental health. Being pushed out sends a message that they don’t belong anywhere.
Jacobsen: How might this lawsuit influence upcoming legislation or judicial decisions?
Aiwazian: Lawmakers watch the courts closely. If this lawsuit gains traction, you’ll likely see a wave of copycat bills in other states; and more courtroom battles to come. It’s a legal snowball effect.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Edwin.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/28
Peter Whitehead is the CEO of Light AI Inc.. The company partnered with Beast Philanthropy to combat rheumatic heart disease (RHD) in Africa by using AI-powered Strep A detection. Their smartphone-based diagnostic tool provides rapid, accurate results without swabs or lab equipment, helping prevent RHD. The AI algorithm achieved 96.57% accuracy in pre-FDA validation studies. Globally, over 600 million cases of pharyngitis occur annually, with untreated Strep A leading to severe complications. MrBeast (Jimmy Donaldson), a prominent YouTuber, supports the initiative through Beast Philanthropy. Light AI aims to expand its AI technology to diagnose other conditions using smartphone imaging, making healthcare more accessible worldwide.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the purpose of the partnership between Light AI Inc. and MrBeast Industries? (How did this fortunate happenstance arise?)
Peter Whitehead: The partnership between Light AI and Beast Philanthropy was formed to address a critical healthcare challenge in Africa—rheumatic heart disease (RHD), which stems from untreated Strep A infections.
By combining our AI technology with Beast Philanthropy’s mission-driven initiative, our work together will provide healthcare workers in underserved regions with the tools they need to quickly and accurately detect Strep A because Strep A is manageable and RHD is preventable.
Our first interaction with Beast Philanthropy made clear the alignment between our two organizations. Beast Philanthropy is well known for tackling humanitarian issues and once we learned what they were hoping to achieve, we knew our technology had a part to play in it.
Currently our campaign is active and over the next six months we are raising proceeds to help support this cause. For every dollar donated we will provide one AI-powered Strep A test with an overarching goal of providing 10,000 tests. Through this partnership, we are working to not only create healthier, heart-safe communities in Africa, but also showcase how AI can be used for good.
Jacobsen: How does Light AI’s diagnostic technology work in a casual way and then in technical language?
Whitehead: Our AI-powered technology allows for rapid and accurate Strep A diagnosis through smartphones. It provides results in under a minute and no swabs or expensive lab equipment is required. Healthcare workers simply scan the back of the throat, through our platform, and once the results are in, they can immediately begin treatment, reducing the risk of rheumatic heart disease and saving lives, one smartphone at a time. In regions with limited healthcare resources, this solution is a lifeline.
Technical Explanation
A convolutional neural network (CNN) was trained using thousands of images confirmed by culture to be either Group A Streptococcus (GAS) or viral pharyngitis. Once the machine learning algorithm accurately differentiated between GAS and viral pharyngitis, it was locked and stored in the cloud.
A second algorithm was developed and embedded into a smartphone app to assist users in capturing high-quality throat images. Once an image is collected, it is sent to the cloud, where it is processed by the first algorithm. The algorithm then analyzes the image and provides a result: either positive for Group A Strep or negative.
Jacobsen: Why is early detection of Strep A important for treatment or providing proper remedies?
Whitehead: What we want to steer clear of are those more severe infections and the post-infectious complications caused by Strep A. The only way to do this is by diagnosing it and treating it as early as possible. I cannot stress the importance of this enough.
Strep A causes a range of infections, from mild to severe. Common mild to moderate infections include strep throat, scarlet fever, impetigo, cellulitis, and erysipelas. However, when left untreated, the bacteria can lead to more dangerous invasive infections such as necrotizing fasciitis (flesh-eating disease), streptococcal toxic shock syndrome (STSS), bacteremia, and pneumonia. It can also trigger serious post-infectious complications like rheumatic heart disease and post-streptococcal glomerulonephritis (PSGN).
While Strep A has traditionally been considered a mild illness in the West, mainly associated with sore throats, recent trends show a concerning increase in severe cases. Since the COVID-19 pandemic, there has been a sharp rise in deadly Group A Strep infections. In fact, preliminary data from the CDC shows that Strep A reached an all time high in 2023.
Jacobsen: What are the performance metrics Light AI’s algorithm achieved in the pre-FDA validation studies?
Whitehead: Our platform’s algorithm generated pre-FDA results that were in the range of the “Gold Standard” swab culture currently used for diagnosing GAS (group A strep).
It achieved a 96.57% accuracy rate and also attained a Negative Predictive Value of 100%, indicating its high reliability in confirming the absence of Streptococcus A infection.
Jacobsen: What is the global impact of viral and GAS pharyngitis as mentioned in the release?
Whitehead: Pharyngitis (sore throat) is one of the most common infections worldwide. According to MDPI, viral infections are responsible for up to 80% of sore throat cases. While viral pharyngitis is usually self-limiting, GAS pharyngitis can have serious global health consequences when left untreated.
Viral and GAS pharyngitis affects over 600 million people annually, and if untreated, can lead to Rheumatic Heart Disease (RHD)—a fatal condition with an annual global economic burden exceeding $1 trillion and which kills 350,000 annually. For such a preventable condition the burden is too high.
Jacobsen: Who is ‘MrBeast’ (Jimmy Donaldson)? I’ve never heard of this person until now.
Whitehead: MrBeast (Jimmy Donaldson) is one of the most influential digital creators in the world, with over 365 million subscribers on YouTube and a combined following of over 400 MN+ followers. He is a YouTuber, philanthropist, and entrepreneur known for his large-scale charitable efforts.
His charity channel, Beast Philanthropy, donates 100% of its revenue to charitable causes, tackling urgent global issues. Beast Philanthropy exists to leverage the power of social media to raise funds and help charitable causes around the world.
Jacobsen: What else could Light AI be used to detect into the future?
Whitehead: Our approach — applying AI to smartphone images — can be expanded to other throat conditions, and other areas of analysis, such as the human eye and skin.
Our vision is to combine the smartphone with AI in-the-Cloud to create a Digital Clinical Lab that can provide quick and accessible diagnosis for countless conditions that today require expensive and time-consuming imaging or lab processes. This is how we open access, provide efficient and effective care, and redefine healthcare to meet the demands of our growing population.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Peter.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/27
Padideh Jafari, founder of Jafari Law & Mediation Office, shares over two decades of family law experience, emphasizing her ethical stance against legal abuse. She discusses the emotional and financial toll of high-conflict divorces, especially when clients weaponize the legal system. Attorney Jafari highlights her firm’s vetting process, refusal to represent unethical behaviour, and the importance of therapy in cases involving narcissistic traits. She explains systemic challenges in California’s family court system and her passion for advocating for vulnerable clients. Beyond law, she maintains emotional balance through horseback riding, mental health days, and her rescue dog. Lastly, she also offers insight and guidance for aspiring women lawyers.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are joined by Padideh Jafari who is the founder and CEO of Jafari Law & Mediation Office, with over 22 years of experience in family law. She is a leading voice against legal abuse—when clients weaponize the legal system to harm ex-spouses through prolonged litigation and manipulation.
Padideh Jafari: Thank you for having me.
Jacobsen: Attorney Jafari is known for her ethical integrity, often walking away from cases when ethics cross the line. She speaks candidly about how economic pressures compromise attorneys, the ethical dilemmas in high-conflict divorces, and the urgent need for systemic reform. Her insights are essential for understanding the intersection of legal ethics, family court, and client-driven abuse.
I have one quick question on the side—something I was thinking about. When do you feel a case has crossed the line? Or is there a specific example that illustrates when you, based on your ethical standards, decide not to take or continue with a case?
Attorney Jafari: Our firm has a clear vetting process, especially early on. We avoid representing individuals who present with Cluster B personality disorders—such as narcissistic personality disorder or borderline personality disorder—unless they are under appropriate psychiatric care and treatment. The reason is that such individuals often complicate the divorce process for their soon-to-be ex-spouse and their own attorney.
They tend to be high-conflict and difficult to manage. They may send excessive emails, text messages, or calls during weekends, disrupting boundaries and creating emotional chaos. These are not the types of clients we aim to work with.
Additionally, when someone seeks to switch attorneys—commonly referred to as “subbing out” their previous counsel—we request full documentation and context from the former attorney. We need to understand why the client leaves one lawyer to hire another. In many high-conflict cases, the client fires the attorney after not hearing what they want. Then, they move to a new attorney who becomes a “saviour” for a short time—until the cycle repeats.
They do not want resolution; they want to perpetuate conflict. Eventually, they fire the new attorney as well. It’s less about strategy and more about maintaining emotional control and chaos. They may continue this cycle multiple times.
Let me give you an example. A couple of years ago, I saw a litigant—on the opposing side—who had gone through seven attorneys in just eighteen months. That was not our client, but it illustrates the situation we try to avoid at all costs. At our law firm, we are committed to ethical representation. We aim to offer thoughtful, solution-oriented legal services—not to enable conflict or dysfunction.
Attorney Jafari: California’s family law is somewhat black and white. It is a 50/50 community property state. But there are gray areas, and that’s where we advocate for our clients—working within those gray areas to find solutions. We do not want to be used as pawns in the sick game of hurting spouses. That is not what our law firm wants to be known for.
Jacobsen: Something that people do not often talk about—at least not as openly as other forms of abuse—is legal abuse. The concept is more familiar in professional circles, such as among psychologists or clinicians. In public discourse, however, physical abuse and sexual abuse are more easily discussed. Subtler forms like emotional, psychological, financial, or legal abuse are still newer to mainstream awareness. They are not new to practice—in law, psychology, or clinical settings—but they are newer to public vocabulary.
So, when we look at a technical definition of legal abuse, what does that imply? And conversely, what is something that may seem like legal abuse but is not?
Attorney Jafari: I do not know if you know, but California has now codified coercive control.
Jacobsen: I did not know that.
Attorney Jafari: You can look up the legal definition of coercive control. It captures the emotional abuse through legal abuse that you’re referring to. The challenge is that although California—and some other states—have codified coercive control, lawyers and judges have not fully embraced the law yet. It is still very new.
To me, legal abuse is when someone—whether it’s our client or the opposing party—files legal documents knowing they have no merit, purely to force their ex or soon-to-be ex-spouse to defend against them. Whether it’s a motion, discovery request, or any other filing, the intent is to overwhelm or financially exhaust the other party. That is legal abuse.
Now, if there’s even a 10% chance that a claim is legitimate, that is not legal abuse. There must be a clear absence of merit and an intent to harass or intimidate.
Some law firms—particularly in Southern California—have developed a reputation for what is called churning. Churning divorce cases, unfortunately, is quite easy, especially when children are involved. There’s so much at stake, and emotions run high. You might be dealing with allegations of physical abuse, domestic violence, or other complex issues.
It’s why people refer to personal injury attorneys as “ambulance chasers.” Divorce attorneys have their stereotype: sharks. There’s a perception that we are here to break couples apart—that we love divorce. Unfortunately, a subset of divorce attorneys reinforces that perception. They profit from conflict because if people do not get divorced, those attorneys do not make money.
But there is another kind of divorce attorney—those here to offer real solutions. We work with our clients and opposing counsel to reach a workable solution. I hesitate to say “win-win” because, in divorce, it rarely feels like anyone is truly winning. However, we aim for a resolution both parties can live with, especially when children are involved.
When there are no children, it is generally easier—California is a community property state, after all. But when there are kids, emotions rise and fall, and things become far more complex.
So, I would define legal abuse as filing motions or discovery requests that have no merit. It’s Family Code Section 6320, as amended in 2021 by Senate Bill 1141.
Jacobsen: So, in the context of divorce and family law, how does legal abuse play out? Can these cases drag on for years, or is this the kind of abuse that usually peters out within a few months?
Attorney Jafari: Oh, it can last for years. Unfortunately, legal abuse can persist in the long term. The longest case I have seen lasted 12 years. It was in Downtown Los Angeles. One party would file for discovery, the other would not respond, and the cycle would be repeated.
This was a case involving a celebrity client. Their daughter aged out during the litigation—she turned 18—so custody was no longer at issue. But the fighting continued. The client refused to settle. Her husband would make settlement offers, and she initially agreed, saying, “Yes, I’ll take it.” Then, two days later, she would call back and say, “I think I should get more.”
It reached the point where the judge retired, and a new judge took over the case. The new judge looked at the case file and asked, “What is happening here?” It was a perfect illustration of legal abuse.
You and I can chuckle about it in person, but when you think about it—do these people want to resolve their financial issues now that their child is an adult? The answer is no. People who want resolution will often settle, even if they receive less than they believe they deserve because they value their mental health more than continued litigation.
At one point, I told the client, “Do you want to live in the courthouse? Because you’re here more than I am.” And yes, I have seen legal abuse stretch on for years.
Unfortunately, judges in Southern California often do not put a stop to it. Even in the case where the opposing party had gone through seven different attorneys, every time we went to court, I would say, “Your Honor, this is a new attorney. It’s costing my client more attorney’s fees to bring this person up to speed.” But the response was essentially, “It is what it is.” The judge was not saying that, but that was the attitude.
Then, that judge moved to a different department, and we had yet another new judge come in. So yes, legal abuse is real, and it can take years.
Jacobsen: How do you stop it?
Attorney Jafari: The truth is—it’s difficult. It might be easier in other jurisdictions or states, but I can only speak for California where I practice, and it is not easy.
Even if you raise the issue of legal abuse with the judge, the response might be, “Well, it’s the clients who are perpetuating it. If they agree, I’ll sign off on it.” So, it is not necessarily the judge’s fault. Sometimes, judges will order a Mandatory Settlement Conference—an MSC—to try and force both sides to resolve the case.
But I have seen MSCs continue for months. And then you’re back in court, hearing the same stories, with the same circus. One side says, “I’m not ready for the MSC.” The judge asks, “How much time do you need, Counsel?” They say, “I don’t know… ninety days?” Then, ninety days pass, and the other side asks for a continuance. It becomes a cycle.
Meanwhile, the client is asking, “What do I do?” And the answer is: settle. Settle for less than you think you deserve—because if you want it to be over, that is how you regain some control. These cases can go on and on, and they are not cheap.
Jacobsen: These cases are not free—they cost a lot of money. So, are we typically dealing with people from a higher professional strata? Or someone who happened to come into a significant inheritance? How are people affording this? Are there cases where, due to some legal technicality, one party is forced to fund both sides—creating a dynamic where they mutually abuse each other and drag the case out for up to twelve years?
Attorney Jafari: All of the above. It can be someone working and genuinely believing in their case, believing it’s about principle. They’ll say, “I must do this because it’s the principle.” But unfortunately, the law is not concerned with your principles. And those cases can take years because people remain emotionally invested.
They could also be individuals who received an inheritance. Of course, here in Los Angeles County, we represent a number of celebrities who have their own independent income streams.
Then, there’s the situation where a judge orders one party to pay the other’s attorney’s fees. In that twelve-year case I mentioned earlier, that’s exactly what was happening. The husband was a celebrity, and we’d return to court every couple of months to request more attorney’s fees. He was funding both his legal team and hers.
But I will tell you this—it continues until the money runs out. When the stock market is doing well, and home values are rising, we often see cases where a property is sold, and the proceeds go into a client trust account. One of the attorneys manages the account, and we might agree: “Okay, each attorney gets $25,000 from the trust.”
But when that money is depleted, suddenly, the conversation changes. Clients begin to realize, “Wait a minute—I’m not even going to walk away with anything from the equity in my house.”
That’s when we sit with our client and say, “You can stop this. You can stop the bleeding.”
The best-case scenario is when both parties come to that realization. They see their monthly legal bills and say, “I don’t want to keep paying for this.” Then they go to their attorney and say, “I’m done.” And the attorney responds, “Great. Here’s a workable solution we can settle on.”
Now, since we operate in a high-conflict area of family law, we do encounter cases involving narcissists or individuals with Cluster B personality disorders—people who fundamentally do not want to settle.
So the question becomes: how do you resolve those cases?
Once again, we tell our clients to take less than what they think they’re owed. The goal is to end the debt.
Jacobsen: Are there emotional strategies you recommend in those cases? For example, certain white lies—emotionally flattering statements directed at the opposing party, who may display narcissistic traits or a full-blown Cluster B personality disorder. I’m thinking of using a combination of flattery and compromise—taking a little less than what the client thinks is justified—to bring the case to a close and get their life back. Is that something you counsel clients to do?
Attorney Jafari: Absolutely. It might sound counterintuitive, but in some situations—especially when the opposing party is narcissistic—you can get further by saying something like, “You’re such a good father,” or, “I appreciate how involved you’ve been.” It may not be how the client feels, but it’s a strategic concession while not quite flattery. It helps the other party feel validated and resolves the case.
We explain to clients that it’s not about fairness anymore. It’s about freedom. Sometimes, you need to take a bit less and say what needs to be said—not because it’s entirely true, but because it allows you to walk away and live your life.
I don’t know if I would call it flattery. I tend to say, “You catch more bees with honey.” I have even said—just as an analogy—”If you need to bake cupcakes for the person, why do you care?” That’s just an example, of course.
There are some people, Scott, who have been abused in the relationship or the marriage, and they do not want to give anything. They do not want to see this person get away with anything. For them, it becomes about principle. But, as I said before, the law is not about principle.
So yes, I have coached clients to resolve the matter—even if it means taking a little bit less—by whatever means are available. I have arranged four-way meetings with the other side, where we sit together in an office and ask, “How can we resolve this?”
Sometimes, face-to-face interaction helps. When I started practicing in 2002, that’s all we did. There was no Zoom, no constant texting. I still hold onto that old-school mentality where, when you’re sitting in front of someone, it’s harder to say “no.”
That kind of meeting lets you say, “Let’s try to make the best out of this situation—for both clients.” And sometimes, you can reason with the opposing attorney in that setting.
That approach does not always work, but it is worth trying. Sometimes, issues do not get resolved in the first meeting. Then we say, “Let’s take two or three weeks, give it some space, and revisit.” Then, you hold a second meeting, and some issues may finally be resolved.
In Southern California, about 95% of cases settle before trial because trial is extremely expensive. It can cost anywhere from $25,000 to several hundred thousand dollars.
So these cases usually resolve before trial—but how you get there, especially with high-conflict individuals, is another matter entirely. It can still take years.
Jacobsen: What you describe sounds like a pressure valve release—a de-escalation tactic. At the same time, it also serves as a release valve for the emotional pressure your client is enduring. Do you ever feel sorry for both parties? Do you ever find yourself watching two people go in circles—over an issue that should have been resolved individually—and realize the court is now functioning more like couples therapy for two people who are no longer a couple?
Attorney Jafari: That is a fair question. Twenty-two years ago, when I was much younger, I had more of an emotional response to these situations. But now, I am much more stoic.
I look at it this way: this couple got married. They were—hopefully—in love with each other. They said vows in front of family and friends. And now they are getting divorced. I try to understand the psychology behind how they got to this point.
But do I feel sorry for them? What I feel is a sense of duty—how can I best advocate for my client.
And sometimes that also means advocating for the other side. You’re acknowledging that the other side is suffering as well, right? It is not like they are sitting there completely happy. These are deeply emotional situations.
That’s why I bring both parties together in a meeting and say, “How can we resolve this?” I want to look at them and say, “Look, I’m not here to hurt you. That’s not my intention as your spouse’s attorney.”
But at the same time, I am bound by what my client instructs me to do. I can only act within those limits. So I say, “Let’s try to resolve this. Let’s find a way forward.”
Now, I do get emotional in cases involving child molestation or rape. A separate division of our law firm handles those cases. I get emotional about those—I have sleepless nights, moments of outrage, and a range of reactions. Those cases stay with you.
But with the more typical divorce matters, I’ve developed more emotional distance over the years. After 22 years, you’ve seen almost everything.
Jacobsen: I think we mentioned the horse farm in our last interview. I might be misremembering, but there was an older lawyer woman—not saying her name, of course—who was well past retirement age but was not retiring. A few times, she would come to the horse farm, and people asked, “Is she okay?”
By then, there had been a few signs that something was off. She did not connect well with clients or staff those days, not often. But on those days, she would stay with her horse, enter the indoor arena, ride, and quietly leave. I remember thinking, “That’s the tail end of something.”
Do you change your tone with clients in moments like that? You mentioned being stoic—but what kind of linguistic wizardry do you employ at Hogwarts Legal Abuse, Inc.?
Attorney Jafari: [Laughing] Are you asking generally or specifically in high-conflict cases?
Jacobsen: We do not have time to discuss this in-depth, but I mean broadly—what general principles do you apply in your speech and presentation?
You will not speak to me like you’d speak to a distraught client. You’ll be dressed professionally, calm, and composed. Outside of those exceptional cases, you’ll be stoic but adjust your tone, pace, and inflection. You’re using your knowledge of the case to convey a sense of stability and safety. Then, you do what your practice is built to do: propose solutions.
So, what does that communication strategy look like?
Jafari: I’d love to say I always have it perfectly under control, but that’s not the case. And anyone in this profession should not pretend otherwise. As divorce attorneys, we must be extremely careful about what we say because our clients hang on to every word.
We work in high-conflict divorce. Most of the time, we represent the “innocent” spouse. Not innocent in the absolute sense—everyone has ups and downs in a marriage—but innocent in the sense that they are not the abuser.
They are not the narcissist. They are not trying to hurt their spouse. They are victims of narcissistic abuse or domestic abuse. So yes, 100%, the way we talk to them—our tone, our language—matters deeply.
At the same time, we also have to be extremely firm. I do not sympathize to the point of being seen as a “girlfriend”figure. That can happen, especially when you have a female attorney and a female client. Those boundaries can blur quickly if you are not careful.
So, it is very important to establish healthy boundaries from the beginning. I’ll advocate fiercely for my clients and clarify: “No, you cannot have my cell phone number. No, you cannot text me on weekends—unless it is a true emergency.” That kind of clarity is essential.
And I speak from experience. Twenty-two years ago, I was a young attorney early in my career. You want to connect and commiserate with your clients, but over time, I learned that it does not help them. It blurs the lines and can disempower both the client and the attorney. Boundaries are critical.
Some clients, Scott, do not even know what boundaries are—especially if they have come out of abusive marriages.
Jacobsen: Oh yes, I completely understand.
Attorney Jafari: When someone has spent years in an abusive relationship, they may interpret a firm boundary as being mean or even abusive. And I have to explain, “No, this is not about rejecting you. This is about setting a healthy boundary—for both of us.”
That is when I usually suggest therapy. A good therapist will help teach boundary work if nothing else. And I tell clients, “You do not have to go to therapy forever. Even if you go for three or seven sessions while the divorce is active, it can make a huge difference.”
When they hear that, they feel some relief. It feels manageable. I have had clients come back and say it was the best thing they did for their mental health. It helped them make better decisions and finally move forward—rather than staying stuck in the abuse.
Jacobsen: Yes. When someone is of sound mind and in healthy circumstances, the present moment is clearer, boundaries are intuitive, and decisions are grounded. But for people who have been tortured or raised in abusive families, that clarity can be shattered. Their perceptual boundaries are skewed. Whether it is a journalist, therapist, or lawyer, they’ll often project a lot unconsciously.
Certain themes always emerge in those cases, and that’s very apt. Before we wrap up, I want to note one other thing. When we last spoke in December, around Christmas, you mentioned launching a podcast. How is that going?
Attorney Jafari: Yes! The podcast is now in Season Two. It is another valuable resource I recommend to my clients. I tell them to go to The Narcissist Abuse Recovery Channel on Spotify or Apple Podcasts and listen to the episodes.
We also have an Instagram account—@narc.podcast—where we post supportive content. It helps clients know that I understand what they are going through, even if I do not disclose my own experiences during our meetings. This builds trust. They see that their attorney gets it—and that I can help guide them out of it if they’re willing to listen and take the advice.
If they go off and do their own thing—or want to make it about principle—that’s a separate issue. They’ll end up stuck in the court system, which I call the hamster wheel. You’ll return every month or every two to three months, just showing up repeatedly.
The judge will be there—that’s their job—and you’ll keep showing up, too. That’s what the hamster wheel is. I can help you get out of it, but it will take time, patience, and a willingness to listen to the advice of your counsel.
Jacobsen: What happens when people don’t take that key advice? Do they end up back on the hamster wheel? Or is it worse—like they made a bad decision, and the situation has escalated?
Attorney Jafari: I’ve seen it get worse. Clients who take things into their own hands and ignore their attorney’s advice often complicate the situation.
I’ve seen the attorney file a substitution of attorney to remove themselves from the case entirely. The client will then say, “Why are you doing this? You’re abandoning me!” But the attorney thinks, “Look, I’ve given you every possible tool, and you’re ignoring all of it.”
I always give my clients this visual: “You and I are standing on the ninth floor of a building. If you jump, I’m not jumping with you.” I will stand beside you, advocate for you, tell you what the law is, negotiate for you, and do everything I can within my professional boundaries.
But if you decide to jump—meaning, to make reckless or emotional decisions against legal advice—then you’re on your own. And I think that is how most divorce attorneys feel. It’s a pretty accurate visual representation of the role.
Jacobsen: That seems like a fundamental life lesson for a lot of people—not just about getting information from open-source tools, like your podcast or social media, but also about understanding that tailored legal advice is there for a reason. The decision is theirs—and they have to own it.
Attorney Jafari: Yes, it’s ultimately their decision and impacts their life—and, in many cases, their child’s life, too.
If you do not have children, then it’s your life alone. You can make mistakes and live with the consequences. But when you have children, your decisions affect more than just you. You must think long-term about whether there’s a custody dispute or anything related to the child.
And Scott, it’s not like it was 22 years ago. Children today learn everything. They have access to social media, online court records, and public files.
I’ve had a child reach out to me and say, “Can you get me my parents’ divorce file?” And I said, “Absolutely not.” But the reality is that it’s public. They can go look it up themselves if they’re of age. That’s the world we’re living in.
So yes, it’s hard. But bringing in the right professionals—like a good therapist who understands divorce dynamics—makes a huge difference. Especially if you believe you’re divorcing a narcissist.
And I always clarify: only a licensed mental health professional can diagnose narcissistic personality disorder. But yes, people can display narcissistic traits.
Attorney Jafari: So it’s not necessarily full-blown narcissism, but rather narcissistic traits. In those cases, you need a therapist to guide you through the emotional aspect and your attorney to guide you through the legal aspect.
Jacobsen: Is it only on Apple Podcasts, or is it on Spotify too?
Attorney Jafari: It’s also on Spotify and Apple Podcasts.
Jacobsen: What’s the tension between the duty to advocate and the responsibility to act ethically?
Attorney Jafari: First and foremost, ethics. That always comes first. I am obligated to the California State Bar—the governing entity—and I feel a personal moral and ethical obligation to myself. And then third, I have an obligation to the client.
There are law firms that will take on any divorce client without going through the kind of vetting process I mentioned earlier. Then, they eventually realize the client is difficult or in conflict. These clients go from attorney to attorney, subbing one out after another—and that’s when you see the hamster wheel pattern emerge.
For us, ethics matter deeply. That’s why we work with fewer clients. Not everyone who walks into our office is accepted. And it’s interesting—some people get angry when we decline a client. They say, “Now I want you to represent me.” And you’re thinking, “There are plenty of attorneys down the street.” But no, they want you, specifically, because they know you have strong boundaries and won’t compromise—and yet, paradoxically, they want you to operate in that gray area anyway.
I’ve had that happen. And we’ve had to withdraw from those cases. Those are tough conversations to have. You must tell the client, “You’re asking me to do something unethical, and I’m not going to do it.”
It’s easy to say that to you, Scott. But it is hard to say it to a client, especially when emotions are running high. They’ll ask, “What do you mean?” And I’ll reply, “Here are ten examples of how you want me to ‘advocate’ for you—but that’s not true advocacy. What you’re asking for is misuse of the legal system.”
The law is meant to be a shield—not a sword. But they want me to act as a sword, and I am only willing to act as a shield.
Jacobsen: Are there some cases where that shield is so important to you that you will take on the case pro bono?
Attorney Jafari: We take on pro bono cases a few times a year. Sexual abuse of minors, for instance—those cases are incredibly important to me.
When I worked for the District Attorney’s Office, I was assigned to a unit called Stewart House. It’s still in existence in Santa Monica, California. They specialize in child molestation and rape cases. The DAs work closely with the parents and prosecute the offenders. Unfortunately, many of those cases do not go to trial because children under 18 are often deemed incompetent to testify.
I interned at Stewart House for three months between my first and second years of law school, and that experience shaped me. So when cases like that come into our office—where one parent has molested or raped the child, and now that same parent is asking for visitation rights—I take them seriously.
Sadly, in California, parental rights are often prioritized over the child’s rights. Unless those rights are formally terminated or the District Attorney prosecutes and obtains a conviction, that parent may still be granted visitation. It is a heartbreaking legal reality.
I’m passionate about those types of cases. In some of those, the firm may do pro bono work. But generally speaking, if it’s a standard divorce case without such egregious circumstances, we do not handle it pro bono.
Jacobsen: So through this, the City of Santa Monica agreed in April 2023 to pay $122.5 million to settle claims involving 24 individuals who alleged they were sexually abused as children by Eric Uller—a former city employee and volunteer with the Police Activities League. He was arrested in 2018 on multiple molestation charges and died by suicide later that year. So, in cases like that, they run through Stuart House?
Attorney Jafari: Yes.
Jacobsen: For those who may not know much about the legal context in the United States—it’s a free country, so you get extremes. There’s more variance in legal applications compared to more centralized systems.
You might have the Convention on the Rights of the Child, but in these cases, parental rights can often supersede that Convention regarding U.S. legal interpretation or application, right?
There are still cases where child marriage laws are lacking or other protections aren’t fully enforced. This kind of thing has happened often—though it often escapes attention.
Attorney Jafari: Yes.
Jacobsen: When do you feel emotionally exhausted as a lawyer working in a “high-conflict” law system?
Attorney Jafari: Wow—that’s a question nobody asks me. I don’t know if anyone besides my husband truly cares—because he doesn’t want an emotionally exhausted wife.
It is not easy. Twenty-two years later, I am still trying to find that balance. I do have hobbies, one of which is horseback riding. I’ve taken up becoming an equestrian over the past year. Spending time with animals is incredibly grounding.
The thing about animals is—they love you unconditionally. You can talk to them as much as you want or not at all. And they understand your silence. That’s one thing that helps me.
I also adopted my dog, who came from the Los Angeles Wildfire Rescue. He is a licensed emotional support animal, but to be honest, he supports me more than he supports our clients, so that has helped me a lot.
Jacobsen: He has a side gig in the emotional law department.
Attorney Jafari: Yes! [Laughing]
I would say the cases involving sexual abuse are by far the most emotionally draining. That’s where I feel it most intensely.
I also take mental health days. If I feel like I’ve reached a limit—where my brain does not want to operate anymore—I’ll take a half day off or a full day if possible. That does not happen often—there’s always something going on at the firm—but I’ll say to myself, “Tomorrow is a mental health day,” and I mean it.
Because what happens with divorce attorneys is that we think about our cases after 6 p.m., we think about them on weekends, and we think about them on vacation. So when I declare a mental health day, it’s a promise to myself that I will not think about any cases.
I’ve found three things helpful: horseback riding, adopting my rescue dog, and mental health days. They’ve been essential for my well-being.
Jacobsen: Quick advice for women just starting in divorce law? They could be interning at Stuart House or entering their first or second year of law school—or maybe even in the final year or two.
Attorney Jafari: It’s important to realize why you want to pursue the profession of law. I knew why I wanted to pursue it—since I was five, I wanted to be a lawyer. I know we talked about that during our first interview. I’ve always known my “why.”That has been essential.
It’s important to figure that out early on because once you’re done with law school, you’ll either find a job at a firm or start your own. At that point, you don’t get to stop and ask yourself those foundational questions.
For me, it was clear. I’ve had that passion since I was five. When I needed to step back from practice for a while, I taught at NYU. You can do many things with a law degree, opening up many paths. But for me, it’s always been about my passion for my clients and the drive to advocate for the underdog—the person who cannot speak up for themselves or doesn’t have a voice. Seeing them on the other side of that journey—free from abuse, free from the toxic relationship—that freedom and peace are incredibly rewarding to witness.
I also know for a fact that there are now more women in law school than men. When I heard that statistic, I was excited. It’s a great field for women. Women, by nature, are nurturing. They want to see justice prevail. So, it’s a great profession for women.
And within the law, there are so many different areas. Not everyone can be—or wants to be—a divorce attorney, and I respect that. But law is still a noble profession. No matter what anyone says, it’s noble. People who aren’t lawyers don’t understand what we do, so it’s easy to judge. But only another lawyer really knows what it takes.
So, it is a noble profession for anyone who wants to pursue law.
Jacobsen: My last question is purely self-indulgent—just something for the equestrian in me. So, regarding your type of riding, are you doing show jumping, dressage, or three-day eventing? What’s your discipline? Please tell me it’s not a three-day event. I’m hoping.
Attorney Jafari: [Laughs] English. I’m taking English riding lessons.
Jacobsen: Excellent.
Attorney Jafari: Eventually, I’d like to do jumping, but I’m not there yet. That will take a couple of years.
Jacobsen: When you get to the meter-sixties, let me know. We’ll see you on the American show jumping team.
Attorney Jafari: [Laughing] Sounds good. Sounds good, Scott.
Jacobsen: Thank you so much for your time today.
Attorney Jafari: Thank you so much, Scott. It’s great to see you.
Jacobsen: Great to see you, too. And congratulations on your dog and your horsey.
Attorney Jafari: Thank you so much!
—
For more information: https://www.jafarilegal.com/team/padideh-jafari-orange-county-family-attorney/.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/27
Jeep Kline, a finance professor and venture capitalist, discusses the multifaceted impacts of Trump-era tariffs. These tariffs have disrupted global investment patterns, compelling multinational corporations to reevaluate supply chains and portfolios. Long-term, sustained tariffs may lead to higher consumer prices, dampened economic growth, and strained international trade relations. Developing economies are particularly vulnerable, as increased tariffs can render their exports less competitive, hindering growth. Startups face challenges due to fluctuating regulations and increased costs, though some pivot to local sourcing. Countries like Japan and Taiwan have adopted strategic responses, balancing alliances without escalating tensions. Kline advocates for the U.S. to invest in innovation and forge equitable trade agreements over imposing tariffs. Sectors such as semiconductors, biotech, and clean tech experience both hurdles and opportunities, with some companies localizing production to mitigate global supply chain disruptions.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How have the Trump-era tariffs influenced global investment trends?
Jeep Kline: The escalation of U.S. tariffs on imports, particularly those from China, triggered significant market volatility and prompted investors to strategically reassess their portfolio allocations while compelling multinational corporations to reconfigure their global production networks and supply chain architectures.
Jacobsen: With experience with The World Bank and in international economics, what will be the long-term economic impacts of sustained tariff policies?
Kline: If tariffs remain long term, consumers will face higher prices for everyday items to absorb the cost. In addition, overall economic growth will most likely decline. International trade cooperation will likely see a downturn due to retaliation, and create barriers for businesses in both sourcing and accessing markets overseas. Overall, it’ll be hard both for businesses in the United States and internationally to accomplish their goals while maintaining their bottom line.
Jacobsen: Particularly, how will these acutely affect developing economies?
Kline: Poorer countries get hit the hardest as they depend on selling things to larger and financial stronger countries. When tariffs increase, their good will become too expensive and will be replaced by alternatives locally sourced. Poorer countries also can’t afford to quickly build new factories or systems to keep up, so it will slow down their growth and progress, and economic positioning.
Jacobsen: What ripple effects have happened in startup and innovation ecosystems?
Kline: When the regulations about buying and selling goods between countries keep changing, it’s increasingly challenging for startup businesses. Since everything costs more, it’s more difficult for them to get supplies as well as ship their products. However, some startups can seize this as an opportunity to get the supplies they need without depending on countries overseas, depending on local production instead.
Jacobsen: How does economic uncertainty affect fundraising and strategic decision-making for early- and growth-stage companies?
Kline: When the regulations about buying and selling goods between countries keep changing, it’s increasingly challenging for startup businesses. Since everything costs more, it’s more difficult for them to get supplies as well as ship their products. However, some startups can seize this as an opportunity to get the supplies they need without depending on countries overseas, depending on local production instead.
Jacobsen: What is your professional assessment of the comparative responses of countries like Japan and Taiwan to U.S. tariffs?
Kline: Japan and Taiwan have played it smart. Japan is making lots of allies through trade deals. Taiwan, which is critical to computer chip manufacturing is being cautious and remaining in negotiation with the U.S. but not retaliating with China either. Both countries are trying to maintain their strength without compromising their positioning.
Jacobsen: Are there more constructive and forward-looking U.S. tariff strategies available to the United States, or are these well-suited to contemporary economic and technology challenges for the global economy?
Kline: Yes, instead of relying on tariffs, the United States has alternative strategies it can take advantage of to boost its trade and economic positioning. One avenue is investing in the development of innovative technologies and desirable products that interest other nations. Partnering with allied nations to establish fair regulations and smarter trade agreements can also create mutually beneficial outcomes for all countries. This strategy allows America to remain competitive without creating destruction to its own economy or bringing on retaliation and boycotts from other countries.
Jacobsen: How have sectors like semiconductors, biotech, and clean tech been affected?
Kline: These industries are important as they power US tech, create life-saving medicines, and provide solutions to make a cleaner planet. But trade tensions and tariffs have made it more challenging for them to operate across different countries. It has slowed down progress in some areas. Still, it has also motivated some companies to get more creative and build more of their products locally instead of relying so heavily on global supply chains.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Jeep.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/26
John Levy, Co-founder, CEO, and Chair of SEEQC, talks about quantum computing as a company developing scalable, energy-efficient digital quantum systems. Levy discusses SEEQC’s origins in Hypres and its evolution through IARPA’s C3 program. The company uses superconducting single flux quantum (SFQ) technology to achieve dramatic reductions in power consumption—up to nine orders of magnitude. Levy outlines partnerships with NVIDIA, error correction infrastructure, and SEEQC’s vision for contextual and heterogeneous computing that integrates CPUs, GPUs, and CPUs. With its SEEQC Orange platform and chip-based architecture, SEEQC aims to enable real-time quantum-classical processing and unlock the practical utility of quantum computing at the scale.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with John Levy. He is the Co-founder, CEO, and Chair of SEEQC (“Seek”), a leading company developing scalable, energy-efficient quantum computers. He has over 35 years of experience at the intersection of technology and finance, previously serving as chairman of Hypres and sitting on the boards of goTenna and BioLite. He is a founding partner of L Capital Partners, where he has led investments in the technology sector and served on the boards of companies such as WiSpry, OnPATH Technologies, and HiGTek. He earned an A.B. in Psychology and an MBA from Harvard Business School. Two things often come up in the news.
John Levy: By the way, your company’s name is SEEQC—as in, you have an aspiration; you are seeking to do something. It is an acronym.
Jacobsen: Two things about quantum computing often appear in the news—particularly scalability and energy efficiency. People often discuss computation as one barrier to competition, but another is energy. I recall Eric Schmidt, in a recent interview, suggesting that the U.S. may need to partner closely with Canada to access sufficient hydroelectric power for large-scale AI data centers. So these things pop up. Within that context—was that the modus operandi?
Levy: First, thanks for reaching out and doing this.Yes. So, first, SEEQC began as a spinout of Hypres, which had its roots in IBM’s superconducting electronics division. When we were operating as Hypres, around 2014, the Intelligence Advanced Research Projects Activity (IARPA) launched the Cryogenic Computing Complexity (C3) program to explore superconducting computing as a solution to the power and cooling challenges of exascale computing.
They realized that, over time, we would need nuclear power plants to run data centers—which is precisely what is happening. Astonishingly, they foresaw this. Their response was: Let us see if we can develop entirely new kinds of classical computers that are incredibly energy efficient.
That was the idea: exascale computing at orders of magnitude lower power because that is the trajectory we needed to be on.
So we started working. There was a program at IARPA called C3, and we partnered with IBM and Raytheon BBN to build superconducting logic and superconducting memory for energy-efficient classical computers that could scale to exascale. That was the core idea.
We finished that project in early 2017. Following this, we held a strategic planning session at Hypres to further develop the idea.
We realized it was a perfect fit because we were already operating in the superconducting domain (i.e., 4 kelvins and below), and quantum computers—at least those using superconducting qubits—needed to operate at temperatures in the millikelvins.
Our technology could power quantum computers, and we knew how to scale them. We had, and still have, a chip foundry to do it. The core idea is that CMOS chips—designed and manufactured by companies such as TSMC, Intel, AMD, and others—consume excessive power.
Power turns into heat, which must be dissipated. CMOS chips are too slow and prone to noise.
If we could substitute the circuits we were building—based on single flux quantum (SFQ) technology—where we are using Josephson junctions instead of transistors and niobium instead of copper, we could change everything.
We produced these circuits in an entirely different way, and that is how we realized we could build scalable, energy-efficient quantum computers. That is how SEEQC was born.
We spun out. It took us a couple of years, but we officially spun out in 2019. Since then, we have been focused on that.
Now, to make that real, let us consider Google’s November announcement about error correction and what their Willow quantum computer looked like. It was a fantastic piece of engineering—honestly, it could be in an art museum. It is beautiful.
However, here is the reality: every qubit needs five cables. Moreover, to power each qubit using room-temperature electronics, you need 2 to 5 watts per qubit.
Because of what we are doing—by building energy-efficient circuits—our circuits operate at three nanowatts. That is nine orders of magnitude—a billion times more energy efficient—not 10%, not 1%, not a fraction of a percent—a billion times more efficient.
Why? Because our circuits are operating at the same cryogenic temperatures as the qubits. CMOS cannot do this—putting too much power into CMOS would generate heat and destabilize the qubits.
So, this is a technology that we have developed, patented, and brought into practice. Moreover, we are running quantum systems today based on this core technology.
We announced SEEQC Orange, which is now operational. It is digitally controlled using SFQ logic and digitally multiplexed to reduce cabling requirements significantly.
Now, think about what that means for data centers.
It is one thing to demonstrate this on a small circuit. However, imagine you want to build a quantum data center with a million qubits.
We studied the energy budget for building a 100,000-qubit system using conventional methods. The estimate ranged from 10 to 40 megawatts of power.
Using our approach, we estimate just 63 kilowatts of power, a massive reduction.
Jacobsen: So you have provided a real-world demonstration of scaling laws that show gains of nine orders of magnitude in energy efficiency. Sam Altman has said there are no foreseeable limits to the scaling laws—well, this seems like one of those parameters.
Levy: But it is critical to realize that this is only one of many technical hurdles—serious, nuanced engineering problems—that must be overcome. Moreover, you cannot just solve one. You have to solve all of them to build a utility-scale quantum computer.
Cabling is a huge issue, too, right? Do you have five cables per qubit? Or even three? Or two? Not if you are scaling to a million qubits. It is not feasible. It would be prohibitively expensive. The meantime between failures would be extremely short. The physical complexity would be overwhelming—encompassing space, thermal load, reliability, and other factors.
So you must solve that problem.
How do you do it?
You package chips in a way that allows them to communicate directly—essentially forming a multi-chip module. Think of it like a sandwich: one chip stacked directly on another.
That gives you direct connectivity, reduced latency, and increased speed.
So that is key for things like error correction. Do you want to do error correction? You have to have low latency. You have to solve that. I am telling you—it is like whack-a-mole. However, it is whack-a-mole at a level you cannot even imagine.
Jacobsen: You are also partnering with a major company, NVIDIA. Jensen Huang is known to be a sober and mature individual. Unlike some others, he does not speak off the cuff too often. So, what does this partnership mean for SEEQC?
Levy: Let me explain how it happened—it is a great story. I love this.
So, about three years ago, we were at one of those many quantum computing events. I met Tim Costa and Sam Stanwyck, who run Heterogeneous Compute and Quantum Computing at NVIDIA, respectively.
I often said, “Hey, let us get together—I will share our latest results.” So, I showed them what we were working on.
By the way, I have not mentioned this yet: our chips are fully digital.
Now remember—quantum computing exists in the analog space. People typically control and read out quantum computers using microwave pulses—that is, analog RF signals. Everything is in the analog domain.
However, we are doing it in the digital domain.
So I told them, “Imagine a GPU and a CPU connected to a QPU—chip-to-chip—with the same latency you have with NVLink between CPU and GPU.”
Ultimately, we want it to operate at such low latency and high speed that we can share memory across the QPU, CPU, and GPU. So, instead of having two separate systems connected by Ethernet or PCIe, we would have chip-to-chip-to-chip communication.
Just as NVIDIA’s CPU-GPU superchip is connected internally via NVLink, imagine a system where the QPU, CPU, and GPU operate together as one unit inside a single computing node.
Now, think about the possibilities we have opened up. We are introducing the concept of trustworthy heterogeneous computing. You can combine a quantum algorithm with a classical algorithm or an AI learning model. We are building the infrastructure to allow that.
Moreover, they said, “Yes.”
Yes, they were in. That is what we have been building together.
Our recent announcement marked the first time we had demonstrated it. Now, we are focused on two main goals:
- Reducing latency—getting it down below a microsecond, ideally into the hundreds of nanoseconds, to make it viable for error correction.
- This makes it bandwidth-efficient—it does not require terabytes of data transfer but rather gigabytes, which is much more feasible.
Since we are working in the digital domain, we can optimize for both low latency and high throughput. That is the winning combination.
Jacobsen: I talked to a friend the other day about all this. One thing that came up was that we have GPUs, CPUs, and QPUs, but you are building an entirely new architecture. What you explained to me feels like contextual computing (Contextual Compute), where the system optimizes computation dynamically depending on what is needed at the time.
Levy: You could call it that.
You have made it once you build the software layer on top of this architecture.
That is what we are doing. We are building tools—new tools, such as a quantum computer.
However, even a QPU—let us be careful how we define it—is more than just a “quantum processor.” CPUs and GPUs are more than just arrays of transistors. They are architectures, ecosystems, and toolchains. We are doing the same thing for quantum computing.
They are high-level functions, such as arithmetic units, cache memory, power management, and I/O subsystems, among others. When people talk about QPUs, they often mean just an array of connected qubits. However, they do not encompass the full system-level functionality that constitutes a complete processor from a systems engineering perspective. That is what we are doing, and that is an important distinction.
So, when you connect an integrated QPU—or something architecturally complete—and connect it, it becomes contextual computing. I love that idea. Jensen Huang, at NVIDIA, thinks of it as accelerated computing. Moreover, rightly so—think about it: he was moving from CPUs, which are fundamentally serial processors, to parallel GPUs. He would explain this better than I could. However, that is the idea—acceleration.
Here, though, we are going beyond acceleration. We are changing the model entirely. Just as quantum computing represents a metaphorical leap from classical digital computing, what we are building represents a similar leap. It is not just about speed anymore—it is about solving NP-hard problems, doing so in the quantum domain, and coordinating those results with the classical domain when needed. That is an extraordinary shift. It is the kind of thing dreams were made of in the golden age of science fiction. It is the reason I do this.
Jacobsen: What did Isaac Asimov write about? This would be akin to laying the foundations for a positronic brain. Right? Because there is a certain resilience in the human brain, even after injury or insult, we often assume the brain is our working model of general intelligence—though “general” always needs a frame of reference. Still, what we are doing could be viewed as forming the synthetic equivalent of such resilience and versatility. Moreover, thinkers like David Deutsch have frameworks for describing systems like this—universal constructors. Shall we go there? We are not going down the panpsychism path. We will not claim that everything is conscious. Honestly, that is the kind of conceptual rabbit hole. The one who more or less caused all the panpsychism noise—he invented a problem, then offered no solution. Right.
Even when it comes to evolved systems like the human brain, which shows tremendous versatility and operates with high efficiency over decades, what we are building now forms the foundational architecture of something analogous. Moreover, that is incredibly exciting.
So, what do you see as the first immediate application—even before you get to those higher-level functions?
Levy: Funny enough, the first application we are considering is entirely internal to the quantum computer—error correction. So imagine how we manage error correction now: trying to do everything using FPGAs or cryo-CMOS. Instead, imagine a different structure where you do a portion of the processing on-chip at the millikelvin level using high-speed, low-power superconducting logic. That would handle the quick, easy stuff. Then, that chip is connected via superconducting ribbon cable to a digital pre-decoder operating at 100 millikelvins or even a single Kelvin. That would do the next layer of processing. If the error cannot be resolved at those two levels, the system hands it off to a GPU or classical processor that can take a global view of the data and run more complex algorithms.
The idea is to build a chip-based infrastructure for quantum error correction—something versatile and adaptable that software developers and quantum scientists can work with. That way, anyone with a new algorithm or software approach to error correction can plug it into this infrastructure. They do not have to reinvent the hardware stack. It gives them a toolkit. Our first instantiation of this heterogeneous computing system will most likely be focused on—error correction. Once we unlock quantum error correction effectively, we also unlock the real capabilities of this new form of contextual—or, as you said—contextualized computing.
Jacobsen: Where do you see the unknowns in developing this infrastructure, especially after the hardware layer, once we start layering algorithms on top of it?
It is funny—everyone asks a slightly different version of this question. Moreover, it is a good one because when I say, “Hey, we are building a new architecture,” or at least extending the existing one and bringing together two entirely different computing domains, it naturally begs the question: for what purpose? Where is this going? How is this going to play out?
Moreover, I will give you the same answer I gave Jensen at GCC. Imagine someone takes you down into the basement of the University of Pennsylvania in 1946 and shows you the ENIAC. You look at it and ask, “What is this good for?” Moreover, the answer might be, “Well, it is good for arithmetic. It is a super-calculator. I can crunch enormous volumes of numbers.” That is all very impressive—for that time. However, it is not the same as imagining that, one day, you would have a device in your pocket that could stream every movie and song ever created or help drive a car that picks an optimized route, pays for gas via a chip, and texts your friend that you are picking them up—all in real-time. No one imagined that in 1946.
Similarly, we are developing these tools and infrastructure without necessarily knowing the full extent to which they will be utilized. I mentioned one example earlier—error correction. However, broadly, we are trying to build a computational capability that can be released into the world, allowing others to discover what they want to become. Louis Kahn, the architect, used to say things like, “What does a brick want to be?”—as if his materials had their ambitions. His goal was to understand the brick deeply and let it express itself.
That is what we are doing. We are developing these technologies, engineering them with precision, and putting them in the hands of the Louis Kahns of the world to figure out what they should become.
Jacobsen: It is like Michelangelo saying that David was always in the stone—he just had to carve him out.
Levy: Right. By the way, there is an excellent book I have been reading called The Rigor of Angels. Have you read it?
Jacobsen: No.
Levy: It is about Kant, Borges, and Heisenberg. Moreover, a recurring theme of infinity and unknowability pervades philosophy, literature, and physics. That is the thinking we need now—cross-disciplinary, multidisciplinary, with an open head and heart. That is how we determine what we want to express through this technology. Moreover, it is going somewhere—undeniably.
Jacobsen: I am reminded of that famous Michio Kaku story about the U.S. attempting to build a particle collider three times the size of CERN’s in Geneva. They dug a massive hole—and spent a billion dollars doing it. Moreover, when someone asked, “Are you going to find God with this machine?” They said, “No. We are going to find the Higgs boson.” Then Congress promptly spent another billion to fill the hole back in.
That is the tension—people want immediate answers to fundamental work that will pay off in decades. However, all I can say is this: we have reached the point where, in some integrated systems and breakout circuits, you have built all the core elements of a quantum computer—on a single chip, digitally, operating at temperatures in the millikelvins and ultra-high efficiency. As I mentioned earlier, by the end of next year, we will have complete core quantum computing functionality on-chip digitally.
As we refine this, we will enhance our connectivity to GPUs and CPUs and continue to expand our infrastructure. Some of that work is already happening at the National Quantum Computing Centre in the UK, where we expect the next generation of our contextual computing systems to emerge.
I like contextual computing. It is a good idea. I might use it.
Jacobsen: Because, conceptually, for me, it is taking the physics of this new infrastructure that you have built—and integrating that with a new stack of algorithms. Whether they are layered, modular, or stacked, the point is that they become bright and aware in a way that allows them to say, “I do not need to use this for that—I will use that for this.” It becomes efficient in a fundamentally new way.
Levy: Yes. Look, the issue, of course, is that we need to scale.
We are currently operating at a relatively small scale because you need to scale up before scaling out. Moreover, that is precisely what we are focused on—scaling up. We are building the foundational elements to scale out once we have all the core functionality integrated into a single chip.
Moreover, that is when this starts to come alive. That is when it becomes real at a systems level. At the very least, we are headed in the right direction.
Moreover, as I said earlier—error correction will likely be the first serious focus, as pick-and-shovel as that might sound. However, it is the groundwork we need to lay for everything else to follow.
Jacobsen: John, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate your expertise.
Levy: Yes. No—it was great to meet you.
Jacobsen: Great to meet you, too. This was helpful.
Levy: Excellent.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/26
Dr. Timothy Patrick McCarthy is an award-winning Harvard scholar, educator, and human rights defender specializing in educational equity, leadership and communication, and the history of social movements. He is Faculty Chair of the Global LGBTQI+ Human Rights Program at the Kennedy School’s Carr-Ryan Center for Human Rights. Diego Garcia Blum is Program Director for the Global LGBTQI+ Human Rights Program at Harvard Kennedy School. A former nuclear engineer, he now champions LGBTQI+ advocacy and co-teaches “Queer Nation” with Dr. Timothy Patrick McCarthy. David Grasso is the founder and CEO of Project Amicus, a global LGBTQ+ rights nonprofit. A Harvard Kennedy School graduate, he is also a media entrepreneur and political commentator featured on CBS, Fox News, and Newsmax. They discussed generational shifts in media consumption, LGBTQ+ advocacy, and the challenges of messaging in today’s polarized, attention-driven landscape. They explored how social media ecosystems shape information, emphasizing micro-influencers importance, humanizing marginalized communities, and balancing seriousness with humour. With firsthand experience at Harvard and through grassroots activism, they offered strategies for bridging ideological divides by using relatable storytelling, strategic platform targeting, and cultural fluency. Their insights reflect a critical need for compassionate, clear communication that honours expertise and lived experience in a fragmented digital world.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, you are here with Diego Garcia Blum, Timothy Patrick McCarthy, and David Grasso. Whether in Boston or Texas, when looking at the new landscape of media—social media like X (formerly Twitter), Meta (Facebook and Instagram), and TikTok—which platforms do you find most effective when you want to communicate with an older generation?
Dr. Tim McCarthy: As the elder in the room, this is a big challenge in communicating broadly and specifically to different generations. We are using various platforms and other communication practices. The older you get, the more people are inclined—by how they have been socialized—to want in-person connections and email communication. Facebook is about as far as people older than me, from my age and older, get.
Some folks in Generation X and the Baby Boomer generation have migrated to platforms that are more likely to be spaces for the younger generations, but that is a relatively new phenomenon for us. People talk about “digital natives” (people who grew up with digital communication as a norm) versus “digital migrants” (those of us who did not and have had to learn these modes of communication). That distinction holds. For example, we did not have email when I was in college. I got my first email account when I started graduate school in 1993. I had to train myself to use email and other digital technologies, and that learning curve has continued over time. I am 53 now, so I am not ancient by any means.
I have tried various social media platforms like Twitter (now X), Instagram, and LinkedIn. But I have not truly taken to any of them.
David, why don’t you weigh in on that first question, and then Diego and I can follow you?
Grasso: Sure, no problem. I see where you were going with that.
We were talking, Scott, and we think older people consume information differently. That is why cable news remains so profoundly influential, especially among a demographic that votes significantly higher than younger demographics. Initially, we were talking about the importance of micro-influencing among older people. Here is a concrete example: it is currently very much in the news that Harvard University conflicts with the U.S. federal government over issues including affirmative action and freedom of speech on campus.
Since Tim was one of my professors and others, I went straight to Facebook to find out what they were thinking. What is their general line of thought? What are the next steps, especially since I am no longer on campus? As much as we hear about micro-influencing among younger people, with older people—especially regarding LGBTQ+ issues—one trusted person in their social network can significantly change their thinking and help them evolve, whether it involves politics, social issues, or something else.
Fortunately for us, many older people, despite being associated more often with social conservatism than younger generations, are more open to change because their digital environments are less saturated with media and often have longer attention spans.
Diego Garcia Blum: I would add something regarding LGBTQ+ issues as well. These very carefully crafted spin points and misinformation narratives are disseminated with precision, especially on television.
Instead of talking about LGBTQ+ people simply as people with diversity in sexual orientation and gender identity—which has existed throughout recorded history—there are all these ideas pushed that portray LGBTQ+ identities as abnormal or as a fad. Rather than trying to foster understanding, many television outlets, particularly Fox News and others, frame LGBTQ+ issues as part of a so-called “social contagion.” People, especially older people, often plug into those channels for hours.
That is why that demographic tends to fall more heavily into anti-LGBTQ+ rhetoric, myths, and misunderstandings. In contrast, many younger people usually get their firsthand information from friends who tell their stories, which helps challenge those talking points directly.
Usually, an older person, especially because it was much harder to come out earlier in life, may not have had the opportunity to hear directly from a transgender person, for example, and may not know one personally. That lack of firsthand connection is a challenge, especially now, when even the White House has been criticized for referring to gender-affirming care in damaging and misleading ways, framing it as something harmful rather than a recognized, evidence-based medical practice.
McCarthy: One of the things I would add to this is that the way media culture has become much more differentiated and variegated in the last two decades or more—this is a 21st-century phenomenon with the advent and proliferation of smartphones and social media—everyone is now a creator, a producer, a circulator, and a consumer.
That has not been true historically. If we are engaged on these various platforms, we will play multiple roles simultaneously, which is interesting. We are not thinking about that as intentionally as we might be.
What does it mean to consume, as opposed to create, as opposed to produce, circulate, or amplify? If we were more intentional about what roles we are playing—what hats we are wearing—at any given time, we might have less of a chaotic cacophony of information.
Interestingly, David brought up the idea of older micro-influencers. When you hear the term “influencer,” you usually think about younger folks—Gen Zers, people on TikTok generating content, often to sell, make money, gain influence, increase their celebrity, brand, or platform. I think that is the most common association.
But the idea of an influencer being older is interesting, and I had not thought about it until David gave this very specific example. I think about this in the context of what is happening on campuses right now. I went to Columbia, and when the protests were happening there last year and the administration decided not to resist federal authority, I immediately contacted people I know at Columbia. I have friends who teach there and friends in the administration. I went directly to them to understand what was going on.
In addition, on the Harvard side, I have been getting a ton of inquiries from people following what I am writing on Facebook and other platforms—though mostly on Facebook because I am not very active on other social media. They want to reach a source they perceive as closer to the situation, someone who might have firsthand experience or connections.
That dynamic is much more pronounced among Gen Xers and older generations. They are more likely to contact someone they know personally for information rather than rely on a public figure they do not personally know.
That is true. I had never thought about it as older people being influencers, too—but they are in a very different way.
Jacobsen: Do you find that younger people have a broader spread in how they use social media? Are they using not only Meta but also TikTok, Instagram, and other platforms? Or do you find they primarily focus on TikTok and Instagram for most of their viewing, consumption, and creation?
McCarthy: I will let the younger folks answer the social media question. But when I think about where I go for my information, I am on Facebook and have a pretty active presence there. I was on Twitter, though I was never very active on Meta’s other platforms. I got off Twitter because it became a sewer.
I am new to LinkedIn and do not use it as effectively as I could. However, I still get the Saturday and Sunday print editions of The New York Times delivered to my house, and I listen to NPR regularly.
I am very careful about how I curate and consume information. As for television news, I have not watched a full cable news show since the day after the election—which was not the case before the election when I watched it every day. It was on 24/7. That has changed how I engage with television media.
Someone like me uses diverse media sources, but social media is still only a relatively small percentage of that. Younger generations are not reading the New York Times print edition, listening to NPR, or watching TV regularly while working from home. They are leaning much more toward social media for their information and communication.
Grasso: But all of these are related, right? That is what people often do not understand: even now, social media has a waterfall effect.
High-level thought leadership usually comes from public leaders and official experts—journalists, academics, and policymakers. As much as we are in an anti-expertise era, it was very clear when I ran a full media brand and monitored our dashboard. Whatever you saw trending on social media fundamentally started at the top and then came down.
There is a real quality problem the further down you go. While people may be getting great information from their social media platforms, fundamentally, it is a reduced and simplified version of something in The Wall Street Journal, The New York Times, or another reputable outlet.
Young people must realize that whatever issue they are studying, they often get a very simplified, viral-consumption-ready version of the facts—which tends to be very low-brow. Thinkers like Tim, Diego, and others working in academia tend to go to primary rather than secondary or tertiary sources.
That is how we should think about social media: not as a source of information but as a derivative of real reporting and scholarship.
Blum: I will say that there are newsmakers, and then there are news spreaders. To grab headlines, stories often get filtered into the messaging that various outlets and creators want.
They will take a story that was maybe originally published by The New York Times and then put a spin on it—perhaps with a conservative bend or some other ideological slant. That is an interesting part of how people consume the media created by the original newsmakers.
They will also add commentary on social media about current events, and that commentary heavily influences people’s takeaways. There are also little ecosystems or media bubbles that are overtly anti-media. For example, the “manosphere” is one of them, as are many conspiracy theory groups and influencers.
These groups gain a large following by promoting messages that are oppositional, very controversial, or lacking thoughtful leadership—because the messages are often extreme or unfounded. Nevertheless, they generate significant bottom-up energy, which we now see reflected in the proliferation of podcasts, manosphere influencers, and related figures.
So yes, these ecosystems are related, and their interrelationships are incredibly complicated.
Jacobsen: I take two points from those three comments.
First, we have micro-influencers among older generations—an important concept. Second, people consume information in different ways.
So my first question is: How do you meet people where they are if they are consuming information from that lower stratum of delivery—a simplified version that does not cognitively resemble what Tim, Diego, or you, David, are reading? They are getting the story, but it is very much a caricature.
Second, I want to introduce a related concept: We have lived a few years dominated by prominent provocateurs who peaked and then faded. Do you see any phenomenon emerging around micro-provocateurs?
Grasso: I think, in general, to put a pin in this conversation, we have a major problem—especially with younger generations—distinguishing between fact and opinion.
Tim is old enough to remember when news and opinion were clearly labelled and did not bleed into each other. We are now in an era where everything is politicized. People use virtue signalling to establish their side when meeting strangers quickly.
What is happening is that the expertise class ends up talking to itself instead of reaching the wider public. This creates weird echo chambers that breed misunderstanding.
So, how do you talk to the general public? That is an art we have largely lost.
We see it a lot in our politics: Whoever can speak to the general public most effectively often wins their support. The public is not very ideological. If someone can communicate well and plainly, they are liked.
That is an important reflection here, especially talking to three Harvard-affiliated people. Public speaking is an art we have lost. Tim was actually my public speaking professor, so it is very interesting—and somewhat ironic—that although we have become so good at public speaking within elite circles, we have become terrible at speaking to the general public.
McCarthy: Interestingly, you would mention David because I think it is true—the siloing and the distance people have.
It is interesting because, in some ways, the distance has been closed. So many people are in virtual space all the time. On the face of it, there is no physical distance at all—and yet, paradoxically, there is so much distance because we are not all in the same digital or virtual spaces together at the same time. People get different information and talk in echo chambers.
That exists across the ideological spectrum. A lot of what you are saying is true. We have lost the art of communicating with each other in interpersonal ways that do not immediately ignite and fuel the polarization we see.
Interestingly, there is long-standing research on communication that supports this. For example, in the late 1970s, a major UCLA study—the largest of its kind—shed light on what makes communication “stick” or stay with people over time. They looked at conversations, public speaking, different audiences, and so forth.
One of the groundbreaking findings of that study was that very little of what sticks, stays, or moves people has to do with the actual words or arguments being made. What truly accounted for it was the sound of the voice, the facial expressions accompanying the words, the gestures made, how people used space, and the emotional or affective feelings people experienced while listening and observing.
When you consider how important interpersonal dynamics are to communication, you realize that we have lost almost all of them on social media. Everything that happens there is disembodied. It is behind avatars, pseudonyms, reactive, and driven by algorithms. There are so many factors that strip away the interpersonal dynamics that are essential to real communication.
Therefore, it does not surprise me that as the country and culture have become more affectively polarized, people react and respond more emotionally to each other. We have also developed a much more heightened sense of disgust for those with different opinions.
We mistakenly think we are in a debate or disagreement all the time; this is more persistent and more emotional now. It is often easier to debate and disagree without being disrespectful or denigrating when we are interacting in person rather than online.
We have not studied this transition as well as we should. There has been what I would call a revolution—or at least a profound transformation—as we have moved from in-person to online or digital contexts.
That shift has had a perilous impact on our ability to talk to each other, engage in reasoned debate, respect one another’s personhood, and hold contentious or conflicting views within the same space without dismissing, denigrating, disrespecting, or discriminating against people who are different from us—whether that is viewpoint diversity or any other form of diversity.
Blum: One of the last things I want to say is that attention is one of the most important currencies.
Apart from people making substantive news, simply making news often now means doing something that catches much attention. The incentives have shifted: even if you have something important to say, it is very difficult to break through when someone else can say something provocative and attract all the traction.
We see this all the time with our experts. Many people do incredible work in academia and have a lot to say. Still, they struggle to break through the noise created by provocative statements. Even very negative or outrageous things, which in earlier times might have backfired, now create so much conversation and engagement that negative attention becomes a net positive for some individuals.
Donald Trump is one of the best examples of that dynamic. Younger people no longer use television in this difficult and distorted attention economy. They are turning to YouTube, TikTok, and other platforms. Even members of Congress are now often more interested in doing something provocative than engaging with actual substantive policymaking.
The real question is: How do experts go through that environment, especially when people do not want to listen to nuanced analysis? It is a major struggle in today’s media landscape.
McCarthy: Part of the inability—or the loss—of the art of communication is the loss of the art of listening.
In digital spaces, we no longer need to listen to each other. We do not even need to read everything. We can just read a clickbait headline. How many of us have reposted something based solely on the headline—something we have not read?
I know that I have been guilty of that in the past. I do not do it anymore, because people have called me out: “Did you actually read this article?” I have been shamed publicly—and rightly so.
As a Harvard professor with a Ph.D., if I am not reading something carefully, then God help us all! So, good on the people who called me out. It was important and it changed my social media practice.
To Diego’s point, there is also research about our diminishing attention spans and the impact of this cultural transformation. The idea of “too long, didn’t read”—TL; DR—was not something we said back when we sat at a table reading the Sunday New York Times op-ed section.
We did not say “TL;DR” in those days. But now, when people repost an article, they sometimes add “too long, didn’t read” as a signal that it does not matter whether they or anyone else reads it. Yet, they still expect others to be angry or react emotionally.
That is a major cultural shift with the advent of the digital age.
Jacobsen: CBC Radio is a big factor in Canadian life. It receives government funding and, speaking more broadly about North America, is very dear to many Canadians. It has been a staple of Canadian society for several decades.
It is still there—it has not gone anywhere—but it now exists within a much more diffuse media landscape. It remains a very big pillar, but it is now one among many.
As you all know, Marshall McLuhan had a famous phrase at the beginning of his work. There is also the Canadian pianist Glenn Gould—someone very familiar to many—who played a lot of Bach and provided much commentary about media.
One thing Gould noted about music, at least for himself, was that he saw it as creating something he called “electronic wallpaper.” In a broader sense, I think of that as a sort of “2.0” version of McLuhan’s ideas.
However, I believe we live in a “3.0” version today. Gould spoke primarily about music because it was his medium of expression. He once joked that if he had not been a pianist, he would have been a writer; as a pianist, that was how he expressed himself.
In the current context, we now have a multigenerational influence of the internet and, increasingly, social media. We are living in a world where, as you noted earlier, Tim, the news used to be on all the time for you—you curated it more carefully later—but earlier, it was a 24/7 immersion.
So, how can those more activist-oriented regarding factual information—those trying to get people activated—tap into that broader electronic wallpaper? Not just older folks on Meta, but everyone across social media? How can we message more effectively across that landscape?
McCarthy: I need clarification on the question. Are you asking how we can use social media to promote or incorporate other kinds of forms—like music and art—to communicate more effectively? Is that what you are asking?
Jacobsen: That is an interesting angle. Getting more at what David said earlier, where you have this lower information strata that people are primarily engaging with: How do you tap into that strata?
Think of it as “wallpaper”—it is everywhere and multimodal. How do you tap into it effectively? It could involve art, music, and other forms. But the idea is to do it strategically—to have a plan of action, identify specific media, and target them with coherent content for a unified messaging strategy.
McCarthy: Two things are important.
First, Diego will laugh because I talk to him and some of my younger colleagues about this often, about my need for intervention and instruction when it comes to social media communication. As David said, I teach leadership and communication, so you would think I would be approached as an expert in this. Yet when I think about my social media inadequacies, I sometimes feel like, “Help!”
If you are not already on the relevant frequency—whether that is a lower-frequency platform or a different media environment—then if you want to communicate with people who occupy those spaces, you must find a way to connect. That could mean learning how to use the platform yourself, getting help from others, or putting intentional time and effort into understanding how to participate in that space in a meaningful and good-faith way.
People who must lead across generations—such as those running for elected office with diverse stakeholder constituencies—have to do this, and many already are. You cannot run for office today without a social media presence.
What often happens when older candidates run for office—and I know this because I work with many campaigns and politicians—is that they hire teenagers or twenty-somethings. One of my friends worked for a state party organization, and during a campaign that turned out to be very successful statewide, she found a high school student to handle their TikTok strategy.
I will not tell you which state it was, but the point is that you have to find the right people to help you infiltrate the right frequencies.
Second, Diego’s earlier point about academics is very important. We do have expertise. We do research. We write. We publish. We develop scholarly knowledge. But that does not matter if we cannot communicate it to a broader audience.
It all comes down to translation—how you translate what you know into a language that other people will understand. This is a massive challenge, not only for individuals but also for institutions like the Democratic Party.
For example, during the last election cycle, every time someone mentioned how tough the economy was and how people were struggling, Democrats would quote Nobel laureate economists about how “Bidenomics” was working. That did not land with someone who cannot pay rent.
Most Americans have no idea what a Nobel laureate is, much less what an economist does.
Thus, being able to translate knowledge and expertise into everyday human experiences is not just a technological question about which platform to use or what frequency to operate on. It is a human question about connecting real people’s experiences to the information you are trying to share.
That is a huge challenge.
We also know that communication is fundamentally about relationships. If I walk into a room to talk about anything, I want to know who is there, what they might already know or not know, and what they might be curious about about what I am there to discuss.
For example, if I am speaking to a room full of young men who are not party-affiliated, I should know that they are probably listening to Joe Rogan’s podcast. I should probably listen to the latest episode before I walk into that room.
And frankly, not everyone is willing to do that work.
As a matter of practice, I used to watch MSNBC, CNN, and Fox News when I was teaching. I would spend time on each of those channels.
This was more the case when we were living in the days when those kinds of TV shows were really powerful and important. They still are, of course, but their influence has diminished somewhat in the country’s latest political incarnation, especially among younger people.
But I did that because I wanted to know: if I encountered someone who was only watching Fox News, then MSNBC would not help me reach them—and vice versa. If I were only consuming MSNBC, I would not be able to effectively communicate with people watching Fox News or CNN, or listening to talk radio or some particular podcast.
It is incumbent upon those of us who want to communicate across divides to be willing to step into those different media worlds. That requires humility and openness; frankly, we are not currently experiencing an abundance of either in America.
Jacobsen: I talked to some child psychologists for another set of interviews, and you are correct. It starts early.
Grasso: most people are apolitical, Scott, which is hard for many people to realize.
Ultimately, most people consume culture more than they consume politics. However, culture is ultimately downstream from politics.
So, when we are talking about LGBTQ+ issues, for example, culture ultimately sets the tenor—and the United States plays a major role in setting that global cultural tone. People worldwide look to the United States—whether they love it or hate it—because we tend to be where things happen first, and then those developments get exported elsewhere.
With the political changes we are experiencing in the United States, we are only seeing the beginning of a global trend. Other countries will likely experiment with their versions of populism, influenced by what happens here.
People are largely apolitical, and it is hard for many people—even myself—to understand that fully. I am less political than Diego and Tim. But interestingly, in my apolitical stance, I look to them to understand what is going on.
When you are more middle-of-the-road, you need people. And if you are middle-of-the-road and open-minded, you should listen to diverse voices and perspectives to better connect with different communities.
We live in a world where we need coalitions to get anything done. Ideological diversity is normal—and ideological purity is poisonous on both sides.
Bridge-building requires understanding that the masses are largely apolitical and recognizing that people are different from you. You must try to think like them to understand their position truly.
Blum: I want to add to that by sharing a Media Matters study that shows that the right-wing utterly dominates the podcast sphere and the broader online media ecosystems.
One thing we are learning—especially after the last election—is that there are far more right-leaning spaces with different ways of talking and different communication styles, and they are deeply influential. According to the Media Matters study, nine of the ten online shows with the largest followings were right-leaning.
This dominance was not accidental—a coordinated strategy that paid off. At the same time, many left-leaning activists largely ignored the growing importance of podcasts, YouTube channels, and other emerging platforms.
It was a huge missed opportunity, and it was too late by the time they realized it. These spaces had already become major avenues through which people received information.
One of the key lessons from this is that when it comes to LGBTQ+ issues—where so much misinformation and harmful myths are spreading—there are huge, largely unregulated spaces where disinformation circulates freely.
If activists do not meet people in those spaces, they will be completely dominated by those spreading myths and misinformation. It is critical to engage in those ecosystems before they become entrenched.
Another issue is that activists, particularly in the LGBTQ+ space and within the Democratic coalition, have been slow to develop catchy, culture-driven messaging. They often over-anchor on expertise—which is important—but it does not always resonate with the broader public.
The challenge is to develop effective communication and attention strategies while maintaining journalistic integrity, a commitment to truth, and factual accuracy. Different standards operate on each side, but breaking through remains as important and difficult.
Grasso: Really interesting study, Diego. Thank you.
McCarthy: It is interesting.
Getting back to the point I was making about affective polarization—this idea that we are experiencing increasing feelings of disgust toward people with different experiences, identities, and viewpoints than we do—this has been well-documented.
The Pew Research Center has done a series of longitudinal studies on this, and we know it is happening. It is one of the key dimensions of polarization within the United States, particularly in our politics.
When you think about how best to message—whether that means engaging on lower frequencies, using the platforms others are using, listening to the media they consume, or reading what they read—all of these communication strategies presume a fundamental acknowledgment of the humanity of the various sides involved in these issues.
And I want to be very clear about this: one of the things happening right now is the dehumanization of certain groups of people. We see it particularly with the LGBTQ+ community and especially the transgender community.
There has been recycling and amplification of ancient tropes—accusations of pedophilia, child abuse, and other baseless claims—designed specifically to serve a dehumanization project. Because if you deny a group’s humanity, it becomes much easier to deny them rights and resources and strip away their dignity.
Suppose we have a good-faith conversation about how the LGBTQ+ community should better message to broader groups in society. In that case, we first need to ask a basic question: Are the people we are trying to reach willing to acknowledge that LGBTQ+ people are human and deserving of human rights?
If the answer is “no,” then we should not waste our time messaging to them. I want to be clear about that. I am not interested in spending what precious time I have left on this earth trying to message to people who fundamentally deny the humanity of our community. That principle extends to all communities that face discrimination and are targeted with ancient stereotypes and persistent prejudices.
It makes sense to clarify that. In politics and polling, we often talk about the “movable middle”—the people who are not yet firmly decided but are willing to listen, willing to hear new information, and can potentially be persuaded.
But again, that presumes a good-faith engagement around mutual humanity. What we are seeing right now in this intensely polarized culture—not just within politics but across society—is a crisis of dehumanization.
While the right and conservatives are certainly not the only ones who engage in dehumanization, when it comes specifically to LGBTQ+ people, conservatives and the political right are disproportionately represented in advancing that dehumanization project.
Blum: I want to end with this point.
There is a very effective campaign underway to dehumanize LGBTQ+ people, especially trans people, by pushing the false message that “real trans people do not exist.”
Of course, that is complete nonsense. We have had trans people throughout recorded history. For example, Roman Emperor Elagabalus is often cited as someone who would today be understood as expressing gender variance. Long before we even had modern language to describe trans identities, people were living experiences consistent with what we now recognize as trans.
Over time, there has been an attempt to reframe trans identity as an “ideology” rather than as an aspect of human diversity and existence.
This rhetorical shift is not accidental. It is designed to strip away rights and recognition. It is a deliberate project of erasure and dehumanization.
The more dehumanized a group becomes, the easier it is to enact increasingly harsh policies against them. That, in turn, galvanizes political support around cruelty, which historically has led to some of humanity’s worst atrocities.
We have to be extremely vigilant because that process is actively underway right now against trans people.
Jacobsen: If we are to think about this in constructive terms, Where do you most effectively meet people regarding their attention, particularly considering what Diego mentioned about the attention economy? Furthermore, once you find those pain points, how do you most effectively engage them?
Grasso: We have to talk to people in a way that makes sense to them.
We live in a fragmented world, separated into tribes based on ideology, geography, class, and more. People may say similar things but use very different language depending on their origins.
We need to meet people where they are, using ways of communicating that feel natural and understandable to them.
People often do not understand the practical implications of policies in their everyday lives. Intellectuals sometimes talk in terms that even I find hard to relate to. The real questions for everyday people are: “How does this affect my life? How is this important to me?” Often, the narratives we hear seem abstract or irrelevant.
We need to break it down so people can see how they are part of the broader world and how they stand to gain or lose depending on which policies are adopted. It is not just about government, either. We often overestimate the role of government when the private sector, the public sector, and academia—all institutions—need to communicate better with regular people.
They need to demonstrate their value propositions, which are how they help people live better, happier, healthier lives.
Jacobsen: You remind me of an individual who has since passed away. When she died, she was in her 90s. I had the privilege of conducting one of her last interviews. She was the Communications Director for Atheists for Human Rights, and we did a few interviews together.
One thing she noted—this was related to reproductive healthcare and abortion—was making issues personally relevant to the individual. Based on many of the harder years in that space (long before Roe v. Wade was overturned in 2022), her analysis focused on making people understand the personal stakes involved.
When I interviewed her, she pointed out that you must make it personally impactful, particularly to men. Because in cases of pregnancy, there are two people involved, the conversation has often been one-sided, without involving a full, bidirectional conversation about responsibility and accountability. For 50 years, the conversation has often been one-sided.
Her point was that you have to make men realize that they could be liable for child support payments for 18 years if they father a child. You must make the issue grounded in something personally costly so they understand why it matters to them.
That would be an example of negative framing. But you can do the same with positive messaging: for example, pointing out that someone probably has a cousin, a friend, or a family member who is gay, lesbian, or bisexual. You make it personal—an investment in the lives of people they know and care about.
Is that style of personal messaging—what Maria Lena Castle emphasized—effective in your experience?
Grasso: It has always been effective.
It goes back to what Tim said earlier: talking to people one-on-one is a completely different experience.
Even with the limited amount of person-to-person interaction we still have daily, it is crucial to represent our communities, humanize ourselves, and remind people that we are not some invisible enemy.
We are their neighbours. We are their children. We are their family. That has always been the most effective feature of the gay rights movement. You cannot “other” people when they are embedded in your everyday life.
The same principle applies to any bridge-building space. When trying to appeal to a population that does not think or look like you—or whatever the difference—the best strategy is re-humanization.
We are discussing dehumanization, but the fight against it must involve re-humanizing people.
Jacobsen: That reminds me of one other point. There was an American comedian who, in the early days of the web, had a series called Web Redemption on a show called Tosh.0—the comedian Daniel Tosh.
Daniel Tosh, an American comedian, was very laissez-faire in his use of words, concepts, and language—often intentionally offensive. He had a segment called Web Redemption on his show Tosh.0, where people who had embarrassing or viral moments online would get a chance to “redeem” themselves in a humorous way.
Similarly, thinking about LGBTQIA+ topics and public framing, there was a viral moment involving Louis Otieno, a former Kenyan news anchor.
In one particular interview that became internationally famous, Otieno asked the guest bluntly, “Why are you gay?” and then followed it up with, “You are gay. You are transgender, so you are gay.” It became a widely circulated clip.
Interestingly, there was also an informal kind of “web redemption” for Otieno. He later appeared in different contexts, doing light-hearted takes on the original viral moment.
This helped humanize him. He was no longer just a one-dimensional caricature of a news anchor who opened interviews with inflammatory questions. It brought humour and a sense of humanity to the whole thing.
Grasso: We have all seen that clip, Scott [Laughing].
Jacobsen: [Laughing] So Louis Otieno essentially had an international version of web redemption.
There are other examples, though I cannot think of them off my head. But moments like that—where the original moment and the later humanization touch people—show the power of humour.
Is there room for something similar in messaging around serious issues? Something that acknowledges the gravity of the issues—legal and individual impacts on people’s lives—but does so in a way that is also charming and humanizing?
Grasso: As much as you can criticize me for my love-hate relationship with social media, one thing about it is that it is really funny.
Social media makes us laugh. Even if I am busy, if I spend five minutes watching little reels that my friends send me, I laugh. Humour brings levity to high-stakes situations.
For activism, even though the issues are serious, humour helps decrease the temperature. Humour resonates with a lot more people because people love to laugh. Sometimes, we all take life—and ourselves—too seriously. Humour is a greatvehicle for social change.
Jacobsen: I interviewed the late Paul Krassner, the founder of The Realist magazine, once.
At the end of the interview, I asked him for advice for young people. His response was very terse—maybe even one sentence—and it was to the effect of: “Do not take yourself as seriously as your causes.”
Krassner emerged from a prime era of in-person activism in American life through literature, comedy, and imagery featuring figures like Lenny Bruce, George Carlin, and others. Does that advice still hold today?
Grasso: “Do not take yourself too seriously” holds. I do not know if that would go over well with some of my colleagues—they are very serious!—so I might hesitate to say it out loud.
But it is true. Do you need anything else from me?
Jacobsen: Favorite quote?
Grasso: Favorite quote? That is a hard one. I am not a “quote person.” I have no idea. I will have to think about it. I will prepare one for next time! Thank you for making me do this.
Jacobsen: You are welcome. Good luck with your work.
Grasso: No problem. Let me know if you need anything, Scott.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Thank you. Bye-bye.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
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Racism fueled Nazi ideology and policies. The Nazis viewed the world as being divided up into competing inferior and superior races.
United States Holocaust Memorial Museum
At its core, the Nazi worldview was racist and biological, positing that the so-called ‘Aryan’ race – primarily the North Europeans – was the superior race of humanity.
Yad Vashem – The World Holocaust Remembrance Center
The German Nazis were decidedly far-Right, not leftwing. To call the Left “Nazis,” or frame the German Left as Nazis, when the enormous weight of corpses and contemporary political analyses note the German Nazis as Right-wing, congratulations, you have taken on the tactics of abusers: Gaslighting.
They merely had “Socialist” in the name. They used the language to co-opt working-class support. Then they aggressively persecuted leftists–i.e., trade unionists, socialists, communists–while advocating for anti-Communism, authoritarianism, militarism, nationalism, traditionalism, and xenophobia.
Facts of history and the dead matter, not scoring political points for personal gain. To more recent history, German intelligence agencies ranked the AfD with neo-Nazi groups as a Gefahr für die Demokratie (danger to democracy).
May 2025…: German intelligence agencies connected the Afd to extreme-right ideology. The Federal Office for the Protection of the Constitution (BfV) report stressed AfD’s ethnisch-abstammungsmäßiges Volksverständnis(ethnically defined concept of “the people”) as violating democratic order, seeking to exclude entire groups. AfD characterized as a “racist and anti-Muslim” organization, e.g., slogans like Abschieben schafft Wohnraum(“deportation creates housing”) and Jeder Fremde mehr in diesem Land ist einer zu viel (“each more foreigner is one too many”). These are listed as evidence of dehumanizing language. BfV President Thomas Haldenwang called this “a good day for democracy.” A history exists here, too.
March 2022: a Cologne court upheld the BfV’s classification of the AfD and its youth wing as a Beobachtungsobjekt (Verdachtsfall) (suspected extremist organization), finding ausreichende tatsächliche Anhaltspunkte für verfassungsfeindliche Bestrebungen– “sufficient factual indications of anti-constitutional aims.” The BfV 1,100-page report filled the extremism criteria.
Late 2023: Bavarian prosecutors opened investigations into newly elected AfD MP Daniel Halemba for possible use of Nazi symbols. He previously belonged to a student fraternity raided for Nazi paraphernalia.
December, 2023: Several state Verfassungsschutz offices flagged AfD branches. Saxony’s domestic intelligence classified the Saxony AfD as gesichert rechtsextremistisch. Saxony’s VS president Dirk-Martin Christian said, “…an der rechtsextremistischen Ausrichtung der AfD Sachsen bestehen keine Zweifel mehr”(“there is no longer any doubt about AfD Saxony’s right-extremist orientation”) The party held typische völkisch-nationalistische Positionen (“typical folk-nationalist positions”) and used common anti-Semitic conspiracy language. These mirrored Nazi-era rhetoric. Thuringia and Saxony-Anhalt earlier flagged local AfD branches as extremist as well.
Interior Minister Nancy Faeser (SPD) called the intelligence review legal and independent, resulting in a 1,100-page internal report being apolitical. The new classification permitted intensified surveillance, including deployment of informants and communication interception.
May, (2024). German courts have penalized AfD members for Nazi-linked speech. The Halle state court convicted Thuringia AfD leader Björn Höcke for using the SA slogan “Alles für Deutschland!”
2025: Two Saarland AfD local councillors liked a Facebook post celebrating Hitler’s birthday. Authorities launched a Volksverhetzung (incitement) probe and party expulsion proceedings.
Leading German politicians likened the AfD to fascism and Nazi extremism. SPD Defense Minister Boris Pistorius warned protesters in 2024: Wer die AfD aus Protest wählt, dem müsse klar sein, dass sie Faschisten wählten. (“Anyone who votes AfD out of protest must be aware that they are voting for fascists.”) SPD leader Lars Klingbeil accused AfD co-leader Alice Weidel of heading a rechtsextreme Partei… die AfD ist durchsetzt auch mit Nazis in Europa. (“the AfD is also filled with Nazis in Europe.”) Former SPD head Sigmar Gabriel compared hearing AfD rhetoric to his Nazi-father: Alles, was die [AfD] erzählen, habe ich schon gehört — im Zweifel von meinem eigenen Vater, der … ein Nazi war. Green and Linke politicians made similar warnings. Expert commentators warned of Nazi parallels.
German officials and courts drew a direct line between AfD rhetoric and Nazi-style ideology. Official reports cite AfD policy goals, mass deportation slogans to ethno-nationalist immigration stances, as incompatible with Germany’s constitution.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/24
FireSmart™ Canada talks about Wildfire Community Preparedness Day (WCPD), a national initiative encouraging citizens to reduce wildfire risk and enhance community resilience. Since its inception, participation has grown from 29 applications in 2015 to 466 in 2025, with 404 awards granted. Supported by the Co-operators, the Institute for Catastrophic Loss Reduction (ICLR), and wildfire agencies, the program offers $500 grants for local projects like vegetation clearing and evacuation planning. FireSmart Canada promotes shared responsibility in wildfire risk reduction, emphasizing collaboration among neighbours to protect overlapping Home Ignition Zones and strengthen collective preparedness through community-based solutions.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the purpose of Wildfire Community Preparedness Day?
FireSmart™ Canada: Wildfire Community Preparedness Day (WCPD) is a national campaign that encourages citizens to take actions that will increase their home, neighbourhood and community’s resilience to wildfire. It’s a great first step in the FireSmart journey, aimed at educating participants and helping them take risk reduction actions in their community.
More information on WCPD can be found here – Wildfire Community Preparedness Day | FireSmart Canada
Jacobsen: How has this Day grown over the past decade?
FireSmart™ Canada: In 2025, FireSmart Canada awarded more recipients than ever before with 404 communities. The years ago, back in 2015, we received 29 applications from only a few provinces. Over the past two years we’ve received and awarded applications from every province and two territories, with a record of 466 applications in 2025.
Jacobsen: How many community events were awarded in 2025 compared to 2024?
FireSmart™ Canada: In 2025, FireSmart Canada awarded more recipients than ever before with 404 awards. *In 2024, 378 neighbourhoods were awarded in 10 provinces and two territories, compared to 230 neighbourhoods in 2023 and 162 neighbourhoods in 2022.
*In 2024 this figure includes 97 communities that were also Neighborhood Recognition Participants. This would bring Prep Day recipients down to 281 in 2024. In 2025, these neighbourhoods were awarded through a separate incentive program and are not included in the final 404 count.
Jacobsen: What are the roles of Co-operators, ICLR, and wildland fire agencies?
FireSmart™ Canada: FireSmart™ Canada, in collaboration with the Institute for Catastrophic Loss Reduction (ICLR), Co-operators and the provincial and territorial wildfire agencies, support this annual event by offering the $500 award. ICLR and Co-operators are long standing sponsors, contributing funding towards this program. The provincial and territorial wildfire agencies also contribute towards the program to support the funding flowing towards the communities within their respective regions.
Program descriptions can be found at the bottom of this email.
Jacobsen: What specific activities do communities typically undertake during the Day?
FireSmart™ Canada: Anyone can participate in a project that reduces wildfire risk, increases resilience, and helps neighbourhoods become FireSmart. Projects can range from hour-long work sessions to full-day activities, or even weekend undertakings. Popular activities include community information sessions and BBQs, community vegetation clearing/removal, evacuation planning, and more!
Jacobsen: How does FireSmart Canada define “wildland fire resilience”?
FireSmart™ Canada: A wildland fire resilient community is a community that is prepared to live alongside fire and have mitigated their risk from it, by implementing FireSmart best practices and recommendations.
Jacobsen: What is the significance of community participation in wildfire preparedness?
FireSmart™ Canada: The FireSmart program helps reduce wildfire risks to homes, neighbourhoods, critical infrastructure, and vital natural resources. This is a shared responsibility between us all. Individuals, communities, governments, and private sector organizations all have a part to play.
As many neighbourhoods across the country are densely populated, it is very likely that properties will have overlapping Home Ignition Zones. When neighbours have overlapping zones, they then share a heightened risk of ignition during a wildland fire. In these cases, it is crucial that they work together to reduce their shared risk. Neighbours can enhance the resilience of their individual properties and that of the entire neighbourhood by working together to reduce risk and remove potential hazards in their overlapping zones.
Jacobsen: How does the ICLR contribute to disaster loss prevention and community resilience in Canada?
FireSmart™ Canada: Please contact ICLR for more information: info@iclr.org
About FireSmartTM Canada
FireSmart Canada™ is a program committed to helping Canadians reduce their wildland fire risk and become resilient to wildland fire through community-based solutions. Through publications, programs, outreach training, and workshops, FireSmart Canada provides tools for Canadians to be pro-active in preparing their homes, properties and neighborhoods for the threat of wildland fire. FireSmart Canada operates under a mandate from the Canadian Interagency Forest Fire Centre, and is supported by federal, provincial, and territorial wildland fire management agencies and partners with municipal governments and the private sector. For more information visit www.firesmartcanada.ca.
About Co-operators
Proudly Canadian since 1945, Co-operators is a leading financial services co-operative, offering multi-line insurance and investment products, services, and personalized advice to help Canadians build their financial strength and security. With more than $71 billion in assets under administration, Co-operators is well known for its community involvement and its commitment to sustainability. Currently a carbon neutral organization, Co-operators is committed to net-zero emissions in its operations and investments by 2040, and 2050, respectively. Co-operators is recognized as one of Canada’s Top 100 Employers and ranked as one of Corporate Knights’ Best 50 Corporate Citizens in Canada. www.cooperators.ca
About ICLR
Established in 1998 by Canada’s property and casualty insurers, ICLR is an independent, not-for-profit research institute based in Toronto and at the University of Western Ontario in London, Canada. ICLR is a centre of excellence for disaster loss prevention research and education. ICLR’s research staff is internationally recognized for pioneering work in a number of fields including wind and seismic engineering, atmospheric sciences, water resources engineering and economics. Multi-disciplined research is a foundation for ICLR’s work to build communities more resilient to disasters. Visit www.iclr.org
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/24
A Yale study revealed that between 2001 and 2022, 92 S&P 500 healthcare companies allocated 95% of their $2.72 trillion net income—totaling $2.6 trillion—to shareholder dividends and buybacks, with 19 companies accounting for 80% of these payouts. Sarah M. Worthy, CEO of DoorSpace, criticizes this trend, stating, “American tax dollars are supporting the purchase of health executives’ vacation homes and yachts instead of the healthcare for Americans it’s intended for.” She advocates for clinician-led leadership and strict regulations to limit shareholder profits in healthcare.Worthy emphasizes the need for transparency, accountability, and a shift towards a people-centered healthcare system that prioritizes patient outcomes over executive compensation.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What drives the 315% surge in shareholder payouts among healthcare companies?
Sarah M. Worthy: The 315% surge in shareholder payouts among healthcare companies can be traced back to the 1970s, when the philosophy of shareholder primacy began to dominate corporate decision-making. This era marked the start of aggressive lobbying efforts to dismantle policies that had once protected the public from excessive profit-seeking in essential sectors like healthcare. By prioritizing shareholder returns above all else,including patient outcomes and public health,corporations laid the groundwork for today’s crisis. Many healthcare economists now agree that allowing unchecked profit motives to infiltrate the healthcare system was a serious misstep, and reversing this trend is critical for the well-being of both patients and the economy.
Jacobsen: Why did this happen between 2001 and 2022?
Worthy: The period between 2001 and 2022 saw rapid transformation in healthcare, with a major turning point occurring around 2007–2009. This era coincided with the launch of the iPhone and a broader digital shift in how Americans experienced everything,including healthcare. Tech companies from Silicon Valley, working alongside Wall Street and policymakers in Washington, began pushing into the healthcare space with digital tools, platforms, and systems. At the same time, the federal government mandated the adoption of electronic health records, offering funding to help hospitalsand practices modernize their digital infrastructure.
This convergence of government policy, financial incentives, and tech industry influence brought a stronger focus on efficiency, data, and profitability. Around 2010, regulations targeting physician-owned hospitals began to be enforced, and we started to see a significant shift from clinical leadership to MBA-trained executives. These changes solidified the dominance of shareholder-driven priorities in healthcare, setting the stage for the financial patterns we see today.
Jacobsen: How does the shareholder-focused model impact patient care in America?
Worthy: When 95% of healthcare profits are going to shareholders, that leaves just 5% to reinvest in the system. That sliver has to cover pay raises for clinical staff, investments in new technology, cybersecurity upgrades, facility improvements—you name it. And it’s simply not enough to keep the system functioning at the level patients deserve.
This model also makes the high cost of healthcare in America more clear. It’s not about the cost of operations or manufacturing—it’s about profit extraction. Shareholders are taking the bulk of the money that could otherwise go toward lowering insurance premiums, reducing the cost of prescription drugs, or improving access to care. Patients are paying more and getting less, while investors walk away with record returns.
Jacobsen: How do Medicare and Medicaid play indirect roles supporting this profit model?
Worthy: While Medicare and Medicaid do play a big role in the problem of clinician turnover and lack of access to affordable care and are certainly in need of reform as well, I don’t view CMS as supporting this profit model so much as seeing how they’re used as scapegoats by politicians and shareholders to rationalize their greed.
An example to show what I mean by this is we see politicians claim they don’t need to create regulations or policies that restrict for profit greed because Americans who can’t afford private insurance have these government supported options.
Jacobsen: What are some examples of healthcare executives personally benefiting while Americans struggle?
Worthy: Some healthcare executives are making decisions that cost people their health, their lives, and their financial security—and they’re walking away with millions. While Americans are denied care, saddled with medical debt, and forced to choose between medication and rent, these executives face no criminal charges and are rarely held personally accountable in civil court. There’s no legal or financial penalty for profiting off policies that actively harm people.
Many of these executives are not medical professionals. They’re former bankers, consultants, or career administrators whose primary objective is to maximize profits—not improve care. Through a mix of bloated salaries, stock-based compensation, performance bonuses tied to cost-cutting, and golden parachutes, they’re able to accumulate generational wealth. Meanwhile, hospitals in rural and low-income areas are shutting down, nurses are underpaid and overworked, and patients are left waiting weeks or months for basic services.
And let’s be clear—some of those “cost-cutting” decisions include denying coverage for critical treatments, pushing physicians to see more patients in less time, and underinvesting in staff and infrastructure. All of this boosts short-term profit metrics, which inflate executive bonuses—while communities are left to suffer the long-term consequences.
This is not about isolated bad actors. It’s a systemic issue driven by a model that rewards financial performance over human outcomes. When healthcare becomes just another line item for Wall Street, patients lose.
Jacobsen: What can curb healthcare profiteering?
Worthy: Americans must protest to their politicians at state and federal levels, loudly, vigorously and unrelentingly. We must elect the politicians who explicitly refuse to take campaign donations from these for profit healthcare companies. We must demand strict regulations that sharply limit how much shareholders can profit from keeping America sick.
We tried deregulating the industry and letting for profit corporations regulate themselves. That experiment got us to where we are today. It didn’t work. They will not regulate themselves – they will enrich themselves. It’s human nature, perhaps – and laws with big fines and criminal charges for
violations are the only way to resolve this problem so the US Healthcare System works to keep all of us healthy, not support a few billionaires..
Jacobsen: How can everyday Americans take action?
Worthy: We need to stop letting politicians make this a partisan issue. An affordable, high quality healthcare system shouldn’t be up for debate. We have the best doctors and nurses in the world It doesn’t make sense that our healthcare would be the worst in the world and so we need to put the focus back on listening to our clinical experts instead of corporate salesmen and political pundits.
Everyday Americans can start by shifting the conversation. Talk to your friends, neighbors, and local representatives about what’s really going on—about the greed driving up costs and the professionals being sidelined in their own field. We need to start listening to our clinical experts, not corporate salesmen or pundits on TV.
We can also demand more transparency and accountability. Ask your elected officials where they stand on healthcare profiteering. Support legislation that prioritizes patient outcomes over executive compensation. Show up at town halls. Vote with healthcare in mind—not along party lines, but based on who’s actually working to fix the system.
And finally, support movements and organizations that advocate for patients, nurses, and doctors—not shareholders. Push back on hospital closures in your community. Speak up when care is delayed or denied. Change doesn’t come from the top—it starts with people refusing to accept a system that’s broken by design.
Jacobsen: How would a people-centered healthcare system look like, in practical terms in practice?
Worthy: A truly people-centered healthcare system would look very different from what we have today. For starters, we’d see far fewer MBAs in charge and far more clinicians—nurses, physicians, therapists—holding leadership roles in the C-suite and on boards. We need decision-makers who have actually worked at the bedside. People who have stayed up all night comforting grieving parents, or who have had to look patients in the eye and deliver devastating diagnoses.
Right now, too much of what passes as “leadership” in healthcare is just business executives focused on funneling money upward to shareholders. Many of them have no real understanding of healthcare, and they routinely dismiss the expertise of the very people who live and breathe it every day. Clinicians understand the full picture—they navigate hospital systems, patient care, government regulations, insurance bureaucracy, pharmaceutical companies, and tech vendors.
Despite that, they’re often left out of the rooms where major decisions are made. A people-centered model would change that. It would prioritize the lived experience of caregivers and patients, not just profit margins. It would mean listening to those who’ve dedicated their lives to healing—not just those trying to maximize revenue.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Sarah.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/23
Representatives of the Harry J. Enns Wetland Discovery Centre at Oak Hammock Marsh talk about its $25 million renovation. The upgrades include new HVAC and fire suppression systems, a pumphouse, modernized exhibits, and the transformation of office space into a multipurpose conference centre. New interactive exhibits aim to foster wetland conservation awareness through engaging, age-inclusive experiences. The theatre now supports educational programming, and the restored diorama simulates natural wetland cycles. With 50% improved energy efficiency and full accessibility, the project was funded by the Government of Canada, the Manitoba government, and private donors to support environmental education and sustainability.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: For the renovation of the Harry J. Enns Wetland Discovery Centre, how will the $25 million be spent?
Harry J. Enns Wetland Discovery Centre at Oak Hammock Marsh: The renovation of the building included new windows, HVAC system and fire suppression system. The fire suppression required an new pumphouse building to store the water. As well, brand new exhibits were built and renovations were made to the full 55,000 sq foot building (including theatre and cafe). The top floor offices were removed and the space transformed into a multipurpose space for conferences and events.
Jacobsen: How will the new interactive exhibits at the centre enhance environmental education for visitors?
Harry J. Enns Wetland Discovery Centre at Oak Hammock Marsh: Our goal is to connect people with wetlands by providing engaging experiences for all ages. We have created a visitor journey so that at the end of the visit there is a call to action. Whether it be to learn more about the importance of wetlands or donate to a wetland conservation organization like Ducks Unlimited Canada
Jacobsen: How has the upgraded theatre improved the wetland conservation?
Harry J. Enns Wetland Discovery Centre at Oak Hammock Marsh: The theatre is for educational films as well as conferences and other gatherings. Through this medium, education leads to conservation.
Jacobsen: How does the restored diorama simulate natural wetland conditions?
Harry J. Enns Wetland Discovery Centre at Oak Hammock Marsh: Using a combination of lights and sounds, the diorama depicts a full day at the marsh from dust to dawn.
Jacobsen: What amenities does the new event and conference centre offer?
Harry J. Enns Wetland Discovery Centre at Oak Hammock Marsh: This second floor space offers views of the marsh, a full service kitchen for onsite catering, spectacular wetland scenery from the deck, full audio visual system, and a bar/flexible food space for lounging.
Jacobsen: Are there specific provisions for events and educators?
Harry J. Enns Wetland Discovery Centre at Oak Hammock Marsh: We specialize in providing curriculum-linked programming for students of all ages. There are lesson plans and pre/post activities for educations as well. Special provisions for events include fully accessible facilities. Our new conference centre has a special HVAC system to accommodate smudging.
Jacobsen: How significant is the expected 50% energy efficiency improvements in reaching the centre’s sustainability goals?
Harry J. Enns Wetland Discovery Centre at Oak Hammock Marsh: Considering the building was ahead of its time when it first opened in 1993 (green roof, underground cooling system, sewage lagoon system) achieving 50% really exceeded our expectations.
Jacobsen: What role did the Government of Canada and private donors play in supporting the renovation?
Harry J. Enns Wetland Discovery Centre at Oak Hammock Marsh: The Government of Canada made a significant contribution through the Green and Inclusive Community Buildings (GICB) Program as well as Cultural Spaces. The Manitoba government also provided generous funds towards this project as well as several private donors.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/23
*This interview is a contribution to an upcoming text on global indigeneity and international humanism from In-Sight Publishing.*
David “Maheengun” Cook, an atheist and humanist from the Mississaugas of the Anishinaabe people, shares his life journey navigating Indigenous identity, secularism, and cultural heritage. Raised near Rice Lake, Ontario, he learned traditional teachings—like oral history, plant knowledge, and seasonal rhythms—from elders. Yet, he embraced atheism at 13, finding Christian doctrines unconvincing and later stepping away from formal Indigenous spirituality, such as pipe-carrying and Midewiwin ceremonies. Cook distinguishes between Indigeneity as a cultural-historical identity and Indigenous humanism, which he sees as increasingly conflated with spiritual beliefs incompatible with secular humanism’s reliance on reason and evidence. He critiques the romanticization of Indigenous knowledge systems, warning against overvaluing localized spiritual traditions as universal truth. Still, he values cultural respect, environmental ethics, and communal decision-making embedded in Anishinaabe life. While he sees overlap with secular humanism in compassion and ethical living, he insists on epistemological clarity: lived experience and reverence are not scientific knowledge. He emphasizes the importance of dialogue, mutual understanding, and intellectual honesty, challenging assumptions from Indigenous and non-Indigenous perspectives. Cook’s reflections underscore the complex interplay between cultural continuity and philosophical integrity in modern Indigenous life.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are joined by David Cook, also known by his Anishinaabe name, Maheengun, which means Timberwolf in the Anishinaabemowin language.
David will share his perspective on Indigenous identity, humanism, and atheism. He was raised near Rice Lake in southern Ontario, where Anishinaabe teachings influenced his formative years. He learned from elders about oral traditions, plant knowledge, and cultural practices rooted in the land and community. Despite this deep cultural foundation, Cook did not adopt theistic beliefs. He embraced atheism at the age of 13 after finding Christian teachings unconvincing.
His journey exemplifies the complex and often misunderstood relationship between Indigenous spirituality and humanist principles. Cook observed that traditional Anishinaabe worldviews emphasize spiritual relationships with the natural world, ancestors, and beings—but not in the form of hierarchical theism or deity worship. Over time, however, he has witnessed a shift in some Indigenous communities toward institutionalized or formalized spiritual practices, influenced in part by colonial impositions and revivalist movements. These shifts sometimes conflict with secular or humanist frameworks. In navigating this tension, Cook stepped away from ceremonial responsibilities, such as being a pipe carrier, to live more authentically within his philosophical values.
His experiences challenge the stereotype that Indigenous identity must be tied to religion or theism. They also highlight the diversity of beliefs and spiritual expressions among Indigenous peoples. Through these conversations, we will explore how Indigenous cultural heritage can intersect with secular humanist values, contributing to a broader discussion on Indigeneity and humanism. I approach this as a learner, open to where the dialogue leads. You never know unless you ask.
David, thank you very much for joining me today.
David “Maheengun” Cook: Thank you for inviting me.
Jacobsen: My first question is: Do you come from an Ojibwe, Odawa, Potawatomi, Algonquin, Mississauga, or Nipissing background?
Cook: My experiences come from Mississaugas, originally.
Jacobsen: That helps. For those who may not know—like myself—how are the various Anishinaabe peoples distinguished from one another? Is it primarily geographic, or is there more to it?
Cook: It is mainly geographic but also linguistic and historical. The Anishinaabe are a group of culturally related nations who speak dialects of the Anishinaabemowin language. The Ojibwe, or Chippewa, stretch across a wide area from Ontario to Minnesota and beyond. The Odawa traditionally lived near the Ottawa River Valley, and the Potawatomi were based around Georgian Bay and further south around Lake Michigan, though many were displaced. The Mississaugas settled primarily in southern Ontario. While they share cultural foundations, each group has distinct histories, migration stories, and regional practices.
Jacobsen: The Anishinaabe are often translated as “original people” or “spontaneous beings,” they are tied to “Mother Earth” and “spiritual emergence.” What does that name signify within the culture?
Cook: Anishinaabe is often translated as “original person” or “first person.” It reflects the belief that our people were created and have always been here—on what we call Turtle Island. In many oral traditions, there are creation stories, including that of Sky Woman, though this version is more prominent among the Haudenosaunee(Iroquois). Among the Anishinaabe, the tale of Nanaboozho is central—he is a cultural hero and teacher who helped shape the world. These stories reflect a worldview grounded in a relationship—with the land, the animals, the elements, and one another—not in dominion or hierarchical worship.
Specific to the Anishinaabe people, there’s a story of our ancestors—the Lenape (or Leni Lenape) from the East Coast—being our predecessors. The Anishinaabe people are said to have split off and migrated westward, following a sacred object known as the megis shell. It is a type of seashell. We followed its appearance and migrated to places where wild rice—manoomin—grew, ultimately reaching the Great Lakes and settling in areas like Minnesota, which marked the endpoint of this ancestral migration.
Jacobsen: What is the significance, within traditional practices, of things like birch bark, wild rice harvesting, and clan systems as part of the Anishinaabe worldview and social structure?
Cook: Good question. So, the teachings of the Seven Grandfathers instructed that our people should follow the megis shell, and we would stop where we found wild rice. As I mentioned, the Anishinaabemowin word is manoomin. Wild rice was—and still is—a staple food and ceremonial plant for the Anishinaabe. Its presence indicated where we were meant to settle.
Birch bark was—and remains—immensely important. It was used to build our traditional homes—wigwams, not tipis. Tipis are associated with Plains cultures, but our homes were dome-shaped structures covered in birch bark.
The Midewiwin society—the keepers of ancient and ceremonial knowledge—used birch bark scrolls to record teachings, medicines, songs, and instructions for building Mide lodges. These scrolls served as a traditional archive. Birch bark also had everyday uses: for containers, canoes, and art.
We also interacted extensively with other nations, including the Haudenosaunee Confederacy—the Mohawk, Seneca, Cayuga, Onondaga, and Oneida. Later, the Tuscarora joined, forming the Six Nations. Through this contact—both peaceful and hostile—we came to share some elements like the agricultural trio called the Three Sisters: corn, beans, and squash. These came more from our interactions than from our ancestral practices.
Jacobsen: You mentioned conflict. What were the historical bases of some of these clashes between the Anishinaabe and the Haudenosaunee?
Cook: Primarily, it was about control of the Great Lakes region, especially trade routes. This was pre-European contact, so before 1497—when John Cabot explored parts of what is now Canada—and certainly before 1603, when Samuel de Champlain arrived. The Great Lakes were vital corridors of commerce, diplomacy, and warfare. A complex trade web stretched across the continent—copper from Lake Superior, shells from the coast, obsidian, tobacco, etc.
The Haudenosaunee traditionally occupied the south side of Lake Ontario, while the Anishinaabe, including the Potawatomi, Odawa, and Mississaugas, were on the north side. These three groups comprised the Council of the Three Fires, a longstanding alliance rooted in kinship and defence.
The conflicts intensified after Champlain allied with the Wendat (also called the Huron), who had accepted the Jesuit missionaries and their Christian teachings. The Jesuits introduced not only religion but also disease, which devastated many Indigenous communities. Champlain and his Wendat allies—including some Ojibwe—launched attacks on the Haudenosaunee south of the lake. That began a cycle of violence and displacement that lasted for centuries.
Jacobsen: That’s quite the historical sweep. Growing up, what was your sense—within your Indigenous community and in nearby non-Indigenous communities—of the mythologies or perceptions each had of the other?
Cook: That’s a rich topic. The mythologies held by each group—Indigenous or settler—about one another were often oversimplified or distorted. Indigenous communities saw settlers as disconnected from the land, lacking the spiritual and relational teachings that tie people to place. On the other hand, settlers often romanticized Indigenous people or reduced us to caricatures—either the “noble savage” or the “vanishing Indian.” Meanwhile, different Indigenous nations had their own stories and rivalries, often shaped by centuries of conflict, trade, and adaptation.
Jacobsen: Regarding social mythologies specifically, what kinds of stories or collective ideas did Indigenous communities have about surrounding non-Indigenous people, and vice versa? And I mean not religious mythologies like Christian beliefs in an intervening God or Indigenous cosmologies like the creation of Turtle Island, but more about the social perceptions communities held about one another. Also, are you speaking from personal experience growing up or from a more historical lens?
Cook: That’s a good question—and I think both apply. Historically, and in my experience, those perceptions have shifted significantly over time.
Going back to the early contact era—when Champlain was active in this region—you had the Wendat (also known as the Huron) accepting, or at least entertaining, Christian missionaries like the Jesuits. That affected how other nations, including the Haudenosaunee, viewed Wendat and the newcomers. But in those early days, there weren’t many non-Indigenous people in Ontario—just a few priests and fur traders—so social mythologies were formed based on limited interaction.
As colonization progressed—particularly during the expansion of Ontario’s colonization roads in the 19th century—Indigenous people in many areas were respected for their deep knowledge of the land, for trade, and for helping early settlers survive. My family has a cottage about an hour and a half north of here, and there’s a long history of cooperation between Indigenous communities and pioneers. There was absolute mutual respect, at least in some areas.
But then things shifted. Public perceptions began souring by the 1960s and 1970s, especially among non-Indigenous people. Many stereotypes took hold—things like alcoholism, laziness, or exemptions from taxation—which created resentment and suspicion. A lot of this was media-driven. People formed their opinions not from direct interaction with Indigenous people but from distorted narratives coming out of other regions or from sensationalized news.
I remember vividly the Oka Crisis in 1990. It was centred in Kanesatake and Akwesasne, Mohawk territories in Quebec, and had ripple effects across the country. Suddenly, many non-Indigenous Canadians—especially in Ontario and Quebec—developed very negative views of Indigenous people, even if they had never met one in their lives. It was a myth-building through fear and media framing.
But today, things are changing with the ongoing work of Truth and Reconciliation and the broader public access to accurate historical information. Conversations are more open. There’s greater willingness—among non-Indigenous people especially—to listen, learn, and reconsider those long-held social mythologies. Today’s understanding is more grounded in reality than it used to be.
I was working hard to raise awareness about something that deeply concerned me. An NDP Member of Parliament from Winnipeg introduced a private member’s bill that would have criminalized the denial of the residential school system.
Jacobsen: How did that go over?
Cook: Well, while I believe that residential schools were a horrific part of Canadian history—and that the intergenerational trauma they caused is still being felt today—I don’t think criminalizing denial helps truth and reconciliation. And it certainly doesn’t support the free speech rights of non-Indigenous Canadians.
I’ve had many conversations with people who didn’t believe in or understand the impacts of residential schools. I often wonder whether I could have had those conversations if a law had made such speech a felony. I’m relieved to say that the bill did not pass the first reading in the House of Commons.
Jacobsen: That’s good to hear. That’s a win for open discourse. These conversations will be exploratory, and while there will be common themes and throughlines, we’ll also encounter offshoots. That issue you raised—around free speech and truth-seeking—is critical. It resonates across different communities in Canada.
How do different communities, in your experience—Francophone, Anglophone, Indigenous, and others—view universal rights commonly claimed internationally, such as freedom of expression or speech, especially as they’re articulated in the U.S.? How are those rights viewed, upheld, or contested in public, private, or sacred spaces within these cultural contexts?
Cook: That’s a great question, but I am unlikely to answer comprehensively since I live in one small corner of southern Ontario. I can only speak to what I’ve seen locally.
But it’s interesting. One thing that stands out is how cultural shifts in Indigenous communities—both on reserves and among urban Indigenous populations—have been influenced by younger generations attending Indigenous Studies programs in colleges and universities. I’ve been involved for over 35 years in the Elders’ Conference at Trent University in Peterborough. The tone and focus of that gathering have changed dramatically over the decades.
Like the rest of North America, there is a widening political divide. On the right wing, there tends to be skepticism about what is seen as special rights or accommodations for Indigenous peoples—questions about responsibilities and accountability. On the left wing, particularly within academic environments, there’s often a tendency to avoid saying anything that could be construed as challenging the dominant narratives taught in Indigenous Studies courses.
You risk being accused of creating an “unsafe” environment; honestly, I find that term increasingly vague. It used to refer to a physical threat, but now it can mean someone holds a different opinion from you on campus—the redefinition of “unsafe” to include disagreement.
I’m rambling now, but my answer to your question is elsewhere.
Jacobsen: It’s like that old Billy Connolly joke about getting older—he says (and I’m paraphrasing here, Jacobsenizing it): when you’re young, someone comes into town and asks you for directions to the gas station. You confidently lift your arm, point with your finger, and say: “Go two streets north, take a left, then a right. You’ll be at Smith and Cook Avenue. The gas station’s right there. You’re good to go.”
“Thank you for that, sir. Have a good day.”
Then you get to middle age, and you just sort of wave vaguely with your arm—”Yeah, it’s over there, young man.”
And by the time you’re in your eighties, you’re lifting your leg and going, “Over there!” You know? It’s somewhere in that general direction.
Cook: [Laughing].
Jacobsen: Somewhere in that general direction—that’s precisely it. Now, a pattern in public discourse connects to what you’ve just described. When people speak in the terms you just used—thoughtfully but with nuance—they are sometimes misunderstood, either deliberately or inadvertently. That misunderstanding is then used as grounds to accuse them of dismissing Indigenous teachings or even of being belligerent toward those who describe themselves as feeling unsafe.
How do you feel when you hear someone attributing motives like that to things you genuinely believe? How are your views being mischaracterized—or, on the more benign side, how are they being misunderstood?
Cook: That’s a great question. I love to philosophize, so stand by… [Laughing]
You’ve captured the polarization well. Some people, yes, are intentionally provocative—they want to be misunderstood or create conflict. On the other hand, there’s a tendency to be hyper-vigilant—a kind of eagerness to pounce on any statement that might not align perfectly with what’s expected. They say it becomes a race to display our virtue or signal.
But the reality lies in the middle. And that’s where the real work of democracy and dialogue happens.
We think of democracy as voting for someone who disappears into a legislature to make decisions. But in truth, democracy is the conversation. It’s the dialogue we have as a society.
If you look at small Indigenous bands historically, decisions were made collectively: where to move, when to hunt, how to respond to challenges. That was real, participatory decision-making—consensus-based. As populations grew and governance became more complex, that model had to evolve. However, the essential ingredient remains: meaningful dialogue that defines the middle ground.
To bring this back to Indigenous roots, the Haudenosaunee Confederacy—the union of the Five (later Six) Nations—is often cited as one of the inspirations for American democracy. That system of deliberative councils and consensus-seeking is a powerful model.
Unfortunately, today, we’ve moved far from that. We’re at a point where people on opposite ends of the spectrum can no longer even speak to each other. Everyone sees the other as an enemy rather than someone with a different perspective.
You’re right. On both extremes, it’s not about understanding anymore—it’s about triggering a reaction or defending territory. But democracy cannot survive without conversation, and we lose a lot when we abandon the middle ground.
It’s about active listening. Listening so that you can hear someone and repeat what they just said to demonstrate understanding rather than interrupting to make your point. That’s missing from many conversations now.
I have a theory about that. When I worked for a vast Fortune 50 corporation, I had the honour of contributing to DARPANet, which was the predecessor to what we now call the Internet. I was on the front lines of Internet development in Canada and North America—working on IP addressing, how networks function, how computers talk, and so on.
Then, in the late 1970s and early 1980s, I worked on efforts related to the World Wide Web and how it could be opened for commercial use. The Web was envisioned as a beautiful, global network of connections—a web of shared knowledge, freely accessible and interactive.
But this Web has become a series of cocoons. People don’t hear each other anymore. Instead, they’re caught in echo chambers, where they only receive information reinforcing their beliefs.
Algorithmic polarization: The algorithms behind social media platforms now filter content so that you rarely encounter ideas that challenge your worldview. If you lean left, your feed is filled with progressive content. If you lean right, you get conservative content.
So, instead of a web connecting people and ideas, we’ve ended up with millions of isolated and insulating bubbles. People don’t even know that other perspectives exist anymore. They hear their thoughts reflected on them.
Jacobsen: That’s not off-topic—it’s a key part of this discussion. What people now call virtue signalling, for instance—it’s not a new phenomenon. We talk about it more explicitly now.
Looking at the last five to twenty-five years, you can see it evolve in public discourse. For example, on the left, wearing a rainbow lapel pin signals affiliation and values. On the right, someone might wear a Christian cross. Both are symbolic affirmations of identity and belief systems. It’s the same impulse, just expressed differently depending on the group.
When people talk about “wokeness,” it’s not fundamentally different from the conversations around identity politics we saw in the 1990s. Those earlier discussions were more implicit, while today’s are explicit—partly because of the digital tools you helped build: the Internet, social media, and open commentary platforms. Everything is exposed now; everything is analyzed or debated instantly.
So we’ve seen this explosion of neologisms—some serious, some silly—all part of a broader cultural shift toward explicit signalling. But returning to our core topic—Anishinaabe culture—we’ve been reflecting on Midewiwin, the Grand Medicine Society.
Cook: [Laughing] Sorry—I have an opinion on everything.
Jacobsen: No, that’s fine. That’s the point of this kind of dialogue—to explore thoughts that aren’t usually expressed inside the Beltway or in typical public discourse. And it’s also an opportunity to bring cultural memory and philosophical perspective into deeper public awareness.
Jacobsen: We discussed the Ojibwe and some of the broader Anishinaabe identity. But what about the more spiritual or ceremonial aspects—the degrees of initiation, moral teachings, balance, healing, herbal medicine, medicine lodges, chanting, and drumming?
You carried the fight, so to speak. You lived with both the theoretical understanding and practical application of this worldview. How did traditional beliefs frame ideas like the world and the Creator? Would you say that worldview is monotheistic—or is that a result of Christian influence, shaping the image of an intervening Creator?
Cook: Again, I can only speak from personal experience—and it’s important to note that Indigenous cultures are oral traditions. So, everything gets passed down through storytelling, and every elder brings their knowledge, memory, and philosophy to their teaching.
The result is that the stories vary. No matter how much we respect the teachings or the history, there’s no such thing as a single, unchanging version. As I’ve gotten older—and now consider myself an elder—I’ve become acutely aware of how fragile memory can be and how much responsibility it takes to carry those stories forward.
When I was younger, the culture I was taught was not formalized. It was experiential—you learned by being there, by participating. There were seasonal rhythms—like telling stories in the winter, an established cultural practice—but the storytelling was light-hearted, even humorous. There wasn’t the solemnity I see today.
Over time, things have become much more formal. There’s now a strong emphasis on protocols, like clearly stating your name, your community of origin, and your clan and doing so in Anishinaabemowin (our language), even if that’s the only part of the language someone knows. There’s also the expectation to establish credibility—to show who your elders were, who taught you, and whether you are authorized to share what you’re about to say.
That wasn’t the case when I was younger. But now, the role of “Traditional Knowledge Keeper” is formalized and widely used, especially in academic settings and government relations. A big part of that came from the rise of Indigenous Studies programs at universities. Those programs needed structure, so they created protocols to ensure that only those with proper knowledge and cultural authority could teach or share stories.
I understand its intent—ensuring authenticity and preventing cultural misappropriation—but the formality has become quite rigid. It’s now common that, right after someone introduces themselves, they’ll light a smudge—often using a smudge bowl made from an abalone shell, even though abalone isn’t from this region. The same goes for sage, which is not traditional to all territories but is now widely used.
So, there’s been much cross-pollination—ceremonial blending—between First Nations across Canada’s diverse regions. Historically, hundreds, if not thousands, of distinct communities, nations, and cultural protocols—from coast to coast. But now, there’s a kind of pan-Indigenous ceremonial standardization, where some practices have become symbolic shorthand for Indigenous identity, regardless of their geographic origin.
And over time, there’s been much blending—so much so that if you attend a powwow anywhere in North America, you’ll likely see women dancing in traditional jingle dresses. It’s a regalia adorned with 365 cones, often made from the lids of snuff cans. Each cone represents a day of the year and is specifically sewn onto the dress. The sound they produce during the dance is part of the healing tradition.
It’s become that rigid, formalized—and you can now see consistently from Mexico to the northern territories. Well, perhaps less so among Inuit communities, but certainly within a broad swath of First Nations and Native American cultures, you see this kind of cultural homogenization.
Jacobsen: So, let me ask you this. What’s your take on Canada’s earlier cultural flashpoints—the Oka Crisis? How do you see those moments now?
Cook: Oh, wow. The Oka Crisis (1990) was a defining moment for Canada, especially for people in Ontario and Quebec—the so-called centre of Canada. It was the first time that many Canadians had to confront the reality that there were unresolved land disputes, some going back centuries, and that Indigenous people were not a relic of the past. They were present, organized, and resisting.
It forced the conversation into the open and made people aware that fundamentally different worldviews were at play—particularly sovereignty, land stewardship, and historical injustice. But like most big cultural moments, it also became deeply polarizing.
Some people were severely injured—people throwing stones—and others were offering help and support. A similar situation happened here in Ontario with the Ipperwash Provincial Park standoff (1995) when the Premier sent in the Ontario Provincial Police (OPP). They shot and killed Dudley George, a young man who was not posing any physical threat. It became an embarrassment and a tragedy.
Events like Ipperwash and Oka truly set the stage for the emergence of the Truth and Reconciliation Commission. They pushed the public to realize that something needed to change—that Canadians needed to become more aware of Indigenous history, the longstanding injustices, and the ongoing consequences Indigenous communities still face as a result. They were defining moments—significant events.
Jacobsen: Now, shifting a bit more toward the central focus of this project—when we talk about people who reject supernaturalism or theistic interpretations of belief within Indigenous traditions, there’s often a social cost.
In European, Anglo, and Franco-North American cultures, people who reject religion or belief in God are often met with a wide range of slurs—“devil-worshipper,” “possessed,” “demonic,” “immoral,” “untrustworthy,” “disgusting,” and so on. These labels don’t function as intellectual arguments—they’re emotional reactions. They show up in polling and population studies as deeply ingrained sentiments toward atheists and humanists.
This prejudice has real economic, social, familial, and professional consequences. Take the example of a woman in a fundamentalist Christian community working at a university with doctrinal covenants. If she gets divorced, that can be considered grounds for dismissal or social shunning. The emotional pain can be deep—and neuroscience tells us that social rejection activates the same brain regions as physical pain.
Now, within a Canadian Indigenous context, particularly in Anishinaabe communities, are there slurs or informal labels used to describe those who reject traditional beliefs—especially those from Indigenous backgrounds themselves? And how do those social dynamics unfold?
Cook: Great question. The only epithet I can remember growing up was for Native people who were seen as “not Native enough.” In other words, if someone had adopted more mainstream, settler characteristics, they’d be called an “apple”—red on the outside, white on the inside. That’s the only derogatory term I ever heard used within the community.
In Anishinaabemowin, there are some terms for non-Native people that can carry a derogatory tone depending on how they’re used. I remember one elder in particular who always referred to white people with a specific term—though I haven’t heard it used in a long time. I don’t know the exact linguistic root of the word, but it was always spoken with a tone of contempt, so it carried weight.
But to your main point—no, I haven’t heard specific slurs or labels used against Indigenous atheists or secular people within the community. You’re right, though: in broader society, people who reject supernatural beliefs get hit with negative assumptions. But I haven’t observed a structured vocabulary around that kind of rejection within Anishinaabe communities, at least not in my experience.
Jacobsen: I mean, if you’re only hearing epithets in English, as opposed to, say, Finnish or Arabic or Anishinaabemowin, does that in itself serve as a kind of psycho-cultural commentary on the use—or limitation—of slurs?
Cook: That’s a good question. I don’t know. There could be all kinds of factors contributing to that dynamic. It might also be that not everyone speaks Anishinaabemowin fluently enough anymore to use slurs in the original language—or even to recognize them if they’re used. So, if those sentiments are expressed, they’re more likely to appear in English, where they’re understood. It’s tough to say what the root of that would be.
Jacobsen: If there’s not much in terms of verbal slurs, then what about other forms of social consequences? Not necessarily professional impacts—but gossip, social standing, and social status. That’s a big part of any culture.
Cook: Absolutely. I think there are all kinds of social consequences for not following what I’d call the “received wisdom”—the currently accepted norms or teachings within the community.
Before we started recording, I told you about a social worker I know who worked for Native Family Services. He’s about fifteen years younger than I am. He grew up on a reserve, and although he identifies as Indigenous, he eventually felt forced to leave his position.
He struggled with expecting every meeting to begin with a smudging ceremony, prayers, sage, abalone shells, eagle feathers, etc. He was told he’d be required to take turns leading the ceremonies—to say the opening prayer, light the smudge, and perform those protocols.
When he said he didn’t want to participate, the response was unsupportive. He wasn’t given space to opt-out. He was made to feel very uncomfortable—like he wasn’t “Native enough.” So yes, even in the workplace, there are real consequences for not conforming to certain spiritual expectations.
Jacobsen: That’s significant.
Cook: It is. Because so much of what is now called “Native culture” is deeply tied to spiritual practice. And I use the word spiritual here more in the religious sense—because when something is no longer optional when it’s mandatory, it stops being about personal spirituality and becomes more like a codified belief system—almost like organized religion.
Jacobsen: That distinction makes much sense.
Cook: For example, when I was growing up, women were not allowed to sit at the big ceremonial drums. There were strict gender roles embedded in the ceremonial life. There was much pushback from the 1960s through the 1980s, especially as broader society moved toward women’s equality. But in many Indigenous communities, especially in ceremonial contexts, women were still restricted from participating fully—particularly if they were on what we call their moon time.
During their menstrual cycle, during their moon, women were often expected to abstain from participating in ceremonies. That was the tradition. But that tradition has also been challenged, especially by younger generations. Still, even today, there are ongoing tensions around these issues. So again, when spiritual practices become mandatory, especially in public or professional settings, they stop being spiritual personally and start resembling an institutional system of belief.
So, during their menstrual cycle, women were not allowed to participate in certain aspects of ceremonial life—sometimes even to the extent of not being in the presence of men during specific spiritual events. There are separate ceremonies for men and women. I have many teachings I’m not permitted to share with women, and my wife has teachings she’s not allowed to share with men.
There are still very distinct roles for men and women. For example, women are the carriers of water at ceremonies. Only women are permitted to touch the water and prepare it. Women traditionally gather the so-called “sacred medicines”—cedar, sage, sweetgrass, and tobacco.
Then, there are specific ceremonial medicines—some used only by women and others only by men. I have to be careful here not to share teachings that could get me into trouble, but yes, there are medicines restricted by gender.
During menstruation, a woman on her moon cannot participate in ceremonies and is expected to avoid ceremonial grounds. At full moon, women’s ceremonies celebrate the menstruation cycle, while men hold their parallel gatherings—often involving cleaning ceremonial pipes, for example. These dual ceremonies happen every full moon.
It’s challenging to separate cultural from spiritual or religious aspects because the two are deeply entwined in Indigenous traditions. But what’s clear is that gender plays a significant role in determining who can do what within ceremonial life.
And if you don’t believe in those teachings—if you’re an Indigenous atheist or secular humanist—there are social ramifications. Questions arise: Can you participate in ceremonies? Can you be a dancer at a powwow?
Let me give an example. I helped create a Native cultural community centre here in the Durham region of Ontario, where I live. We didn’t have any services for what we used to call urban Indians—people living off-reserve in urban areas. So we created this centre to offer programming and support. I was elected chief of that organization’s council.
Now, I used to get into trouble constantly. In Anishinaabe culture, people dance clockwise around the drum at powwows. But here, we also have Haudenosaunee people—alongside Inuit and other First Nations folks—who have different ceremonial expectations. For example, some Haudenosaunee teachings say you must dance counterclockwise around the drum.
So, what do you do in an urban setting where one group deeply believes in dancing clockwise and another holds just as strongly to dancing counterclockwise?
That’s a powerful image—and pretty funny. It is a sort of ceremonial traffic jam. It shows how diverse Indigenous cultures are, even among just the First Nations, not to mention Métis and Inuit peoples. It also highlights the challenge of creating inclusive ceremonial spaces in urban environments—where you’re not just dealing with intercultural dynamics between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people but also intracultural tensions within Indigenous communities themselves.
Jacobsen: That reminds me of the diversity in Christian traditions, too. For instance, the modern evangelical movement in the U.S. and Canada is relatively uniform. However, traditions like Eastern Orthodoxy and Roman Catholicism remain distinct, owing to their long historical separation—between Ecumenical Patriarch Bartholomew and the Pope.
Cook: Right—and even within those traditions, each has its own internal governance, rituals, and symbolic systems, just like us.
Jacobsen: That’s correct. And in Eastern Orthodoxy, the Ecumenical Patriarch is called “first among equals”—a primus inter pares. However, The Catholic Church does not see the Pope that way. So there’s a lateralization of hierarchy in Eastern Orthodoxy that you don’t see in Catholicism, where the hierarchy is more pyramidal.
Given that, though—and more to the point ritualistically—both the Eastern Orthodox and Catholics, from what I’ve seen in their communities, have a very intricate ceremonial life. I don’t mean “better,” just more complex in structure, especially compared to modern evangelical or prosperity gospel movements, which tend to be simpler in ritual and more overtly political in tone after their Sunday services.
From what you describe about the Anishinaabe, I understand that the rituals are deeply tied to place, history, and cultural memory. Almost everything is done within a spiritual context, whereas in Catholic or Orthodox Christianity, the rituals are rich and symbolic. However, many adherents return to their regular, often secular, lives after the liturgy.
Cook: I think that’s fair. I also believe that a kind of hierarchy of belief or ritual commitment exists within Anishinaabe communities. Let me go back to an example.
Just north of here—about a twenty-minute ride on Lake Scugog—there’s a First Nation where I have many ties. I probably spent as much time there as I did on Rice Lake, where I grew up. That community had a longstanding chief lineage—a family that had held that leadership position across several generations.
But I remember from back then that there wasn’t much visible spiritual practice. It all seemed private; at least, that’s how I experienced it.
Just before COVID, I went up to visit friends in that community. I dropped into the health centre and chatted with some people about my history with the Nation. I’d helped them re-establish the powwow there about thirty or thirty-five years ago. At the time, they had never held a powwow, but I’d been involved in running a successful one in Oshawa for about five or six years. They asked me to help organize their first one—show them how to build the arbour for the drum according to tradition, invite elders, and how to structure the event.
When I visited more recently, I spoke about possibly getting more involved in the community again. But they asked me directly whether I was Midewiwin—or Mide, as it’s often shortened. They implied that if I wasn’t, I might not be welcome like I once was.
That’s a community I grew up in. But they had started holding Midewiwin ceremonies regularly, and those come with a much more formal structure. So yes, there’s a hierarchy there. That particular spiritual tradition—the Midewiwin or Grand Medicine Society—requires a kind of adherence to specific teachings, ceremonies, and protocols.
You could compare it loosely to a Masonic lodge in structure—not in content, but in how it’s organized into degrees or levels. As you advance, you gain access to more profound teachings, some of which are kept secret or sacred until you reach a certain level or have participated for several years.
Jacobsen: That’s a very structured system. You mentioned earlier the status of women as a factor. Most cultures at least pay lip service to the ideals the international community promotes—things like gender equality and inclusivity.
What parts of traditional or historical Indigenous culture—specifically Anishinaabe—do you see as genuinely practicing gender parity? And conversely, where is that parity lacking? Especially in today’s conversation, are there ways that transcendental, supernatural, or extra-material justifications are used to explain or defend those inequalities—or even to silence criticism?
Cook: Great question. Let me start with something I touched on earlier—women sitting at the drum. Today, if you attend powwows—certainly in this region—you will see women sitting at the main drum and singing, the big drum representing Mother Earth’s heartbeat. Traditionally, women used smaller hand drums, usually 12 to 18 inches in diameter, and men sat at the big drum. That’s changed. There’s no more gender parity in that ceremonial role, at least in some communities.
As for justifications for maintaining older traditions or exclusions—yes, there are stories. Indigenous cultures often preserve and transmit social structures through traditional narratives. These stories are told to explain why things are the way they are, often in spiritual or cosmological terms.
To give you a tangible example: at a powwow, a man can dress however he likes—shorts, a T-shirt, and running shoes. He’ll still be allowed into the circle to dance. Some of us old-timers still wear ribbon shirts and regalia, of course. But if a woman shows up in a dress that doesn’t go to her ankles, someone will almost certainly take her aside, ask her to change, or even leave the circle.
That gender-specific expectation is still very much present—at least here. It could certainly be viewed as restrictive or patriarchal from a mainstream cultural lens. However, within the culture, teachings passed to women help contextualize and justify these expectations. Whether you see it as subjugation or sacred protocol depends on your frame of reference.
Jacobsen: That reflects a broader tension—between cultural tradition and modern equality frameworks. And I’ve seen this tension play out even in international settings. I did two weeks of journalism in mid-March at UN headquarters in New York City during the 69th Session of the Commission on the Status of Women (CSW69). I sat in on an entirely Indigenous-led session with a panel of Canadian Indigenous women—both young and older voices.
The stories shared were incredibly moving. There were moments during the panel when there was open crying—not just among the speakers but also among the audience. The speakers discussed intergenerational trauma, displacement, gender-based violence, resilience, leadership, and cultural renewal.
That kind of setting brings out the depth of these issues. It shows how women’s voices in Indigenous communities—especially when given a platform—often expand and complicate the narrative beyond the neat boxes that institutions like the UN try to put things in.
These weren’t minor figures either—these were foremost Canadian Indigenous leaders, speaking candidly. At the same time, you had high-profile figures like Bob Rae, Canada’s ambassador to the UN, walking through because he had other meetings—there was this strange mix of formality and intimacy.
What struck me most, though, was how it tied back to what you mentioned earlier—the consciously inflicted tragedy of the residential school system. What I saw in that room wasn’t necessarily what I’d call healing, at least not in the clinical or complete sense. It was more like people were, at that moment, relieving themselves of the burden of silence—finally saying things aloud that had weighed on them.
To me, that release—while powerful—is private and not always therapeutic in the lasting sense. It’s more like a momentary purging. It’s the difference between washing a wound and disinfecting and stitching it. That open expression of pain, especially in a public space where others have shared history if not identical experiences, creates a kind of communal recognition.
Now, the women themselves would describe it far more eloquently and precisely. However, that was the emotional atmosphere I absorbed from that session at the UN in New York. That said, this living history is not something we can choose to ignore. It’s here, whether we talk about it or not. That brings me to this: Are there contexts in which traditional beliefs can offer an anchor, a sense of grounding—but where supernatural elements or superstitions surrounding those beliefs may not serve long-term health or healing?
I’m thinking here of something Noam Chomsky once shared. He described knowing an immigrant mother who had lost her child. She found deep comfort in the belief that she would be reunited in heaven with her child after her death.
Chomsky, of course, didn’t believe in that promise. But he also didn’t try to strip her of that consolation. He understood that in the moment, it brought genuine emotional relief. Still, he questioned whether that kind of belief system, while temporarily comforting, is ultimately sustainable or healthy. It’s sort of like using an antidepressant or anxiolytic for a period of acute need—but then pairing that with practical life changes or cognitive tools that support longer-term well-being.
Over time, you wean off the medication, and you’re left with sustainable skills and insights. In this way, the person can integrate their trauma rather than escape it.
So, Can traditional Indigenous spirituality serve that kind of transitional function—providing ritual and meaning early on but eventually giving way to something more lasting, less myth-bound, and potentially more universal? They’re dealing with the context of their own life story.
Cook: Absolutely. And I have some pretty strong opinions about that—because I know so many people who experienced residential schools firsthand and who still live with that trauma. And what’s even more heartbreaking is how that trauma was often passed on. It created parents who didn’t know how to nurture or protect their children, and those children—now adults—passed the trauma on again to their kids. That’s the intergenerational trauma we keep talking about.
This is one of my core criticisms of Indigenous humanism as it is sometimes practiced today. One of its guiding ideas is the creation of strong communities rooted in culturally grounded mental and physical health programs tailored to Indigenous needs. While that’s well-intentioned, I worry that, in some cases, it does not address the root problems.
It’s similar to my broader critique of religion. As Marx said, it’s the opium of the masses—not because it’s inherently evil, but because it can offer a Band-Aid without providing honest answers. It may feel good to believe in the power of prayer. But to me, prayer and meditation are quite different. Meditation is an internal process, a focus on self-awareness and grounding. In many traditions, prayer involves asking for something, often from a higher power. That’s a very different kind of psychological engagement.
My point is this: religions tend to provide emotional scaffolding, a way of soothing pain. But mental health professionals can do that too, and in many cases, more effectively, without relying on superstition or magical thinking.
So, in the Indigenous context, when Native spirituality is used to help people cope, yes—it can offer comfort. But I also think it can delay more profound healing or perpetuate specific traumas under the guise of tradition. Some of this intergenerational pain might be addressed earlier and more effectively if we approached it with direct, evidence-based support instead of spiritualized frameworks alone.
Jacobsen: That’s a very personal critique. Speaking of personal—what about your own experience, living as an atheist within the community?
Cook: [Laughing] The short answer is: I’m not really “out.”
Jacobsen: Oh? Some people might be in for a surprise.
Cook: Yeah— Because honestly, it wasn’t hard for me to step away from social and ceremonial aspects of community life.
All of my elders, the people I deeply respected—the ones who made the Native community meaningful to me—have passed away. That’s the thing about being an elder: there’s only one destination, and we’re all moving quickly. (chuckles)
I’d had conversations with a few while they were still alive. They knew where I stood. They understood that for me, participating in ceremonies wasn’t about belief but culture and showing respect for our traditions and them.
For example, when I was growing up, the concept of a single, monotheistic Creator never really came up—at least not in any way I remember. That may have been introduced later or emphasized more heavily as Christian influence spread.
When we got into a canoe to cross a lake, we would put down tobacco at the edge of the water—or directly into the water—to honour and protect ourselves from the spirits believed to inhabit the area.
There’s a specific water spirit in Anishinaabe tradition, Mishipeshu, or the underwater panther. In our traditions, Mishipeshu lives in lakes and rivers. If you fail to pay proper respect, you might experience a storm, or your canoe could capsize, or worse. That spirit wasn’t just a story—it was part of the everyday consciousness of being on the land and water.
As a kid, when you were alone in the forest, we also had stories about Wendigos. There’s even a famous poem about them. In our culture, the Wendigo was this malevolent, ghost-like creature—part spirit, part cautionary tale. They were associated with greed, cannibalism, and spiritual imbalance. They lived in the woods and were a real part of the spiritual landscape.
Everyday life included constant gestures of respect toward nature and the spirits. In that way, it’s very similar to Shinto, the traditional Indigenous religion of Japan, where kami, or spirits, are found in rocks, trees, rivers, and mountains. That was the world I grew up in.
Even now, when I walk past a giant tree, I instinctively put my hand on it—not because I believe it will speak to me, but out of respect. So, maybe some of my “superstitious” thinking hasn’t completely left me. But for me, it’s not superstition—it’s about honouring the natural world around me. Or at least, that’s how I justify it now.
As a child, though, this wasn’t metaphorical. It was literal. We believed in individual spirits—everywhere. And this is deeply embedded in Anishinaabemowin, our language. The language doesn’t just have masculine and feminine genders, like French or Spanish—it also distinguishes between animate and inanimate nouns.
And what’s considered “animate” isn’t always what Western culture would define that way. A boulder, for instance—a glacial erratic you might stumble upon in the forest—is considered animate because it has spirit. We’d refer to it as a grandfather, a being who has been there since time immemorial.
In the sweat lodge ceremony, when heated stones are brought in, they’re not just “rocks”—they are greeted as grandfathers (Mishomis) and treated with reverence. That’s the spirituality I grew up with. It’s not monotheistic or dogmatic, just interwoven with the land, the water, and the life around us
Jacobsen: How are you distinguishing Indigenous humanism (or Native humanism) from secular humanism? And why don’t we collapse the terms under something broader like Humanists International’s definition of humanism?
Cook: Because they’re not the same. In some ways, yes—there’s overlap, and they can work together in many areas, but at a fundamental level, they’re incompatible.
Secular humanism is grounded in reason, science, and ethics without reliance on the supernatural. It emerged from the Age of Reason, and its philosophical foundations rest on empirical evidence, reproducibility, and skeptical inquiry.
On the other hand, Indigenous humanism is deeply embedded in spirituality and cultural tradition. Spirituality and culture are not separable in Indigenous contexts. There’s no culture without spirituality and no spirituality without culture. They’re intertwined.
Indigenous humanism also emphasizes connection to nature, reverence for the land, and relational thinking, aligning with some of secular humanism’s environmental ethics. So there’s common ground, especially around values like sustainability and community well-being.
However, the gap becomes philosophically significant when one worldview is based on ancestral wisdom, oral tradition, and what’s now often called “alternative ways of knowing,” and the other is based on scientific rationalism.
Jacobsen: What do you make of attempts to merge the two—to create some hybrid identity between Indigenous and secular humanism?
Cook: I think doing so requires a massive amount of cognitive dissonance. The two systems operate on very different epistemological foundations.
Secular humanism—again—is about what can be tested, measured, and replicated. It’s a product of Enlightenment thinking. Indigenous humanism is about lived experience, ancestral teachings, oral transmission, and sacred relationships with land and life. When someone tries to blend the two, they often end up unconsciously prioritizing one over the other or reframing one to fit the lens of the other.
And to be honest, the modern framing of “alternative ways of knowing” tends to get used in philosophically muddy ways. It can obscure more than it reveals, especially when not critically examined.
Jacobsen: Would it be fair to say that secular humanism doesn’t offer a “variety of ways of knowing” but a shared standard of inquiry?
Cook: It’s not about many truths—it’s about one standard for evaluating truth claims. In that sense, it doesn’t offer pluralism the way Indigenous frameworks do. And that’s where deep tensions arise when people try to conflate the two without acknowledging that.
So that concept—“ways of knowing”—is one that, as a secular humanist and as a scientist, I find very difficult to accept in a literal sense. I don’t believe there are multiple valid epistemologies when uncovering truth. There are ways of being, indeed—those are cultural. But I’m very skeptical of ways of knowing as alternative epistemic systems.
We know things through scientific inquiry and critical thinking—through processes that yield repeatable and reproducible results. That’s the foundation of empirical knowledge. Now, I know there’s a common critique that science is reductionist. That’s true, but reductionism has also given us tremendous insight into the natural world and a robust framework for understanding reality.
My experience has been that Indigenous ways of knowing are often tied to experiential learning—through direct engagement, observation, and interaction with the environment. This can be valuable as a teaching method and cultural transmission, but it is unreliable for discovering objective truths.
We’d still be stuck in a Newtonian physics model if we relied solely on direct experience as a path to knowledge. We wouldn’t have the relativity of Einstein or the quantum models of the subatomic world—because you can’t see those things with the naked eye. Much of what we now understand about the universe is counterintuitive, and it took sophisticated tools and models to uncover those truths.
The reality is that humans have cognitive biases—lots of them. And when we rely only on intuition, feeling, or observation without rigour, we risk being led astray. I often hear, even within Indigenous communities, references to people who claim psychic abilities or who say they “just know” something spiritually or emotionally about the land or the Creator—because of a sign or feeling only they can perceive. That’s very similar to what you hear in other religious traditions.
As a humanist, I struggle to understand how that could be called knowledge in any formal sense. We must be careful not to confuse belief or emotional insight with empirical evidence. Many people feel compelled to pay deference to Indigenous humanism because they have a genuine desire for reconciliation, respect, and inclusion. I support that. I respect the individuals.
But that doesn’t mean I have to respect the belief system—especially when the system makes claims unfalsifiable or unsupported by evidence. So, when someone says, “I know this is true because an elder told me,” it’s a classic example of an appeal to authority. By scientific standards, that doesn’t constitute knowledge.
To be clear, Indigenous humanism has beautiful and valuable elements. The ethical teachings, especially around respect for the environment, are profound. But even there, we must be honest—those values are not unique to Indigenous worldviews. Take Greta Thunberg, for example. She is not Indigenous, yet her environmental ethic is evident, principled, and powerful.
Jacobsen: We also need to distinguish between humaneness, as in compassion or emotional sensitivity, and humanism, as a defined philosophical and ethical worldview. You mentioned feelings earlier—that idea of having a feeling about a rock, a vibe from a place, or a sense about a person.
That kind of subjective experience—how I feel about a particular location or object—might be meaningful in a personal or cultural context. Still, it’s not a factual claim about that location’s chemistry, biology, or geophysics.
Those are different domains. One is about the internal emotional experience; the other is about objective external reality. Confusing the two can lead to misunderstandings within Indigenous communities and broader knowledge, belief, and truth discussions.
There’s a subjective fact there. You can describe how someone feels about something and that’s real for them. However, it does not represent the objective state of affairs external to the person. It’s not about the object itself but about how that person experiences the object.
So, there’s a difference between that kind of emotional resonance and what we might call the “woo-woo” formulation of a vibe. In the 1960s and 1970s, this vibe culture emerged among many Euro-American communities, especially within a hippie culture—a sort of diffuse, mystical energy reading of the world.
But that’s distinct from something like intuition. Sure, people can misunderstand or misuse intuition, but in many cases, intuition is grounded—it’s developed from experience and a deep familiarity with a field. For example, a scientist might have a hunch about a hypothesis or direction for research based on years of work, even before the data fully confirms it.
So those are subtle but important distinctions. And I think there’s a humanistic, empirical way to talk about those kinds of experiences—intuition, emotion, reverence—without turning them into mysticism or supernaturalism. That way, we respect the emotional or intuitive side of human understanding while remaining grounded in the natural world and a commitment to truth.
Cook: I agree. And earlier, you used the word “humaneness.” I think as a secular humanist, and in my case, not just an atheist but an anti-theist—because I believe religion does real harm—it’s still essential to recognize context. I don’t need to brandish my atheism in people’s faces.
If someone finds comfort at a funeral because they believe their loved one is in a better place, now is not the time to challenge them. That’s not compassion. A compassionate stance is central to secular humanism—the desire to support well-being and respect others, even if we don’t share their beliefs.
So I get it if someone tells me they had a powerful emotional experience in the woods—a deep sense of connection or reverence. I’ve stood under the aurora borealis and felt awe; that emotional reaction is human. It might arise from intuition, nature’s scale, or raw beauty. And that feeling can lead us into scientific exploration. The stars can move you, and you still want to understand the physics behind them.
So again, to return to what I said before, conversation is critical. We lose opportunities for shared understanding when we shut down dialogue or categorically dismiss something without engaging.
Many discuss integrating science and Indigenous humanism or bringing the two into respectful dialogue. I support that principle—as long as we maintain clarity about what we mean by knowledge, belief, emotion, and experience.
And probably the most controversial thing I’ll say is this: I don’t think there is anything uniquely Indigenous—in terms of knowledge or worldview—that doesn’t exist elsewhere. That doesn’t mean it isn’t valuable, but I question whether it’s epistemically unique. I’d go so far as to say that, in some cases, these cultural beliefs can have an adverse effect—they can hinder rather than help.
I have two anecdotal examples that shed light on what I mean.
First, I recently watched a documentary about bison in Yellowstone National Park. Researchers had long believed the bison population was dwindling because wolves had been reintroduced to the park. But after years of research and scientific reductionism—they discovered that the real culprit was lake trout.
Here’s how: the lake trout were predators of salmon, a primary food source for grizzly bears. And grizzlies, who usually don’t prey on bison outside of a very short period during calving, were now starving. The only time bears can kill bison is for about two weeks in the spring when the calves are still tiny. However, the bears hunted more young bison during that narrow window because of the salmon shortage. Wolves had not contributed to the bison population decline.
You can only arrive at that kind of conclusion through systematic scientific inquiry. You cannot deduce that from direct observation alone—not with any reliability. Yes, maybe you’d intuit that something upstream was causing the bears to behave differently, but then you would need to test that hypothesis in a repeatable and reproducible way. That’s how we know what’s happening.
The second example relates to archaeological research. The Smithsonian Institution has a vast collection of human skulls from all over the world. These have been used for anthropological, archaeological, and evolutionary research. Some of the skulls in the collection are of Indigenous origin.
The law rightly states that when the provenance—that is, the tribal or cultural origin—of a skull is known, it should be returned to that Indigenous group for repatriation and appropriate cultural handling. I fully support that.
But it becomes complicated here: many skulls have unknown or unverifiable provenance. And some Indigenous groups are now refusing to allow any study of those skulls. In some cases, female researchers are prohibited from touching the remains during certain times of the month based on ceremonial protocols. Even x-rays of the skulls—non-invasive digital scans—are sometimes requested to be returned or destroyed because they are also considered sacred representations of the remains.
Now, I ask—where do we draw the line? I find it very difficult to see how treating an X-ray as a sacred object benefits anyone, especially when we’re talking about the pursuit of human knowledge and scientific understanding that could benefit all people, including Indigenous communities themselves.
Jacobsen: That raises a lot of essential questions. As our mutual friend, Dr. Lloyd Hawkeye Robertson, often points out, the self—and, by extension, culture—is not static. It’s a dynamic process. Cultures evolve and adapt over time, as individuals do, at varying rates and ways.
How have you seen Indigenous culture evolve in Canada over the years? Some observers describe what’s happening now as a renaissance—a revival or reinvention of traditional knowledge and spiritual practice. Do you see it that way?
Others have observed something different—an integration between Indigenous cultures and Anglophone or Francophone Canadian culture, resulting in what might be called a hybrid identity, particularly among urban Indigenous peoples.
Then you have people—like yourself—taking a more universalistic approach, seeking frameworks that view the human species through a scientific lens. That’s the truth-based perspective, where ethnicity is understood as a sociological category, a layer we place over our shared biology.
This also ties into an epistemology that aspires to be universal—not necessarily in opposition to every microprocessor within broader “ways of knowing,” but certainly in tension with epistemological pluralism, which often rests on less rigorous foundations. By contrast, the scientific method offers a universal filter for arriving at objective truths about the world.
So, how have you seen these elements—cultural revitalization, hybridization, and scientific humanism—evolve during your lifetime?
Cook: Wow. That’s a big question.
Specifically regarding knowledge, I would say that Indigenous culture has crystallized—that is, it’s become more codified and standardized in ways that weren’t present when I was younger.
As I mentioned earlier, there’s been a homogenization of Indigenous cultures across North America. Historically, sharing between nations was done to support trade—cultural elements were exchanged pragmatically. But now we see deeper integration and standardization of ceremonial practices. From coast to coast to coast, there are often standard formats for things like vision quests, sweat lodges, powwows, and even the regalia worn at those gatherings.
Alongside this has come a more defined idea of Indigenous humanism, particularly regarding how knowledge is transmitted. There’s a growing emphasis on learning from elders, which is being passed on in Native Studies programs, language classes, and cultural revitalization efforts. The resurgence of Indigenous languages is one of the best things happening now. There’s nothing to criticize about strengthening cultural continuity—that’s essential and beautiful.
But where I start to think critically is in the epistemological space. All around the world, cultures have developed systems of knowledge—about the environment, healing, and ethics. Indigenous cultures have made meaningful contributions, for example, to agricultural practices like crop rotation or land stewardship. But I wouldn’t say those practices are uniquely Indigenous. Versions of them exist across many cultures globally.
And that’s where I think the scientific method offers something distinct—the process that has served us best since the Age of Reason. It begins with hypotheses, follows with testing, and leads to the development of theories—not just beliefs but replicable, predictive models.
I struggle sometimes to express this clearly, but what I’m getting at is that while the diversity of cultural worldviews is essential and enriching, when it comes to understanding the natural world, the scientific pursuit of knowledge remains the most reliable, universal process we have. That doesn’t invalidate cultural meaning-making, but we shouldn’t confuse it with empirical truth.
Of course, you understand how “theory” gets thrown around—“It’s just a theory.” But a scientific theory is far more than a hunch or intuition. It’s something that’s been tested rigorously, often in hundreds of different contexts, and has repeatedly held under those conditions.
That doesn’t mean it’s 100% guaranteed—it’s not absolute certainty—but it does mean that we haven’t yet found a way to disprove it. And that’s meaningful. That’s what knowledge grounded in evidence looks like.
That way of thinking is foundational for me—and this is how I’m wired, maybe because I come from a scientific background. There are Indigenous and scientific parts of me, but I can’t help it: I reason, believe in systems, and think in processes.
I have difficulty conceptualizing some of these so-called “other ways of knowing.” Throughout my life, I’ve understood the cultural teachings I received not as truth claims but as stories—valuable but not epistemologically authoritative.
So when I walk through the woods and put my hand on a tree, that action connects to something cultural—maybe even spiritual, in a poetic sense—but it feels like a kind of vestigial organ from that part of my heritage. It doesn’t represent the truth to me. As I see it, the truth comes from science and rational inquiry.
And I don’t know how we’re supposed to reconcile that tension. From my perspective, scientific thinking is still the best tool we’ve developed as a species to understand the world around us. It’s not perfect, but it’s better than anything else.
And the scientific method isn’t culturally exclusive. It may have been formalized during the European Enlightenment, but it’s been adopted and applied by cultures around the world. The cross-cultural sharing of scientific knowledge has done more to bend the moral arc of history than the exchange of supernatural or magical beliefs ever has.
Jacobsen: In the African American community in the United States, there’s often the perception that atheism or humanism is a “white thing.” Do you find anything similar in Indigenous communities in Canada—where science, secularism, or even atheism is seen as foreign, colonial, or somehow outside the cultural norm?
Cook: Oh. That perception exists.
And I think that’s part of the reason Indigenous humanism has taken root—it’s a kind of response to the perception that science, and by extension secular humanism, is a product of white Western culture. There’s a historical trauma there, of course, because science was often tied to colonial institutions—residential schools, anthropological exploitation, eugenics, resource extraction—you name it.
However, that distrust of science is not unique to Indigenous communities. Just look at the religious right in the United States. Much of that worldview is grounded in Christian fundamentalism, and it also treats science as a left-wing enemy.
So you get this strange convergence: one side rejects science because they see it as secular, the other see it as colonial—but both resist the same process that has arguably done the most to improve human life on a material and ethical level.
The current administration is actively dismantling scientific institutions and educational infrastructure because it sees science as foreign, something separate from its culture and worldview. So yes, after having been to many universities across Canada, I’ve never seen an Indigenous science class. I’ve seen Native Studies classes at virtually every institution—but not Indigenous-led science education that operates by scientific principles. That absence is telling.
Jacobsen: I often point out, for example, that however the Egyptians built the pyramids, it wasn’t “Egyptian engineering.”It was just engineering. It happened to be carried out by Egyptians, but it was part of the universal domain of human problem-solving. And the same applies to science. It emerges from culture, sure, but any one culture does not own it.
Cook: That’s exactly right. That’s why I made that flippant comment about Greta Thunberg—ethics, environmentalism, and scientific reasoning aren’t culturally bound. They’re philosophical systems we’ve developed as a species.
I’d say the opposite of what’s often claimed. One commonly repeated claim about Indigenous humanism is that it has forced science to become more ethical and environmentally aware. But I don’t believe that’s true.
Regardless of cultural background, many scientists are already working hard to integrate ethics, sustainability, and responsibility into research. That pressure didn’t have to come from any single cultural worldview. It’s not a unique contribution of Indigenous epistemology or any other cultural system. These are universal human concerns.
I mentioned this earlier: the moral arc of history is bending, but not because of culture. It’s bending because we’re becoming more interconnected and aware of how we are all part of the same planetary system. That’s where progress comes from—not from traditionalism, but often despite it.
Cultural frameworks can often become obstacles to progress. They assert, “That doesn’t fit my culture, so I can’t accept it.” But when you look at what has slowed human development, it’s often things like religious dogma, nationalism, and rigid racial or ethnic identities. These forces have stifled progress—not fostered it.
So, progress didn’t happen because of culture; in many cases, it happened despite culture.
Jacobsen: Do you think that some of the current emphasis on race and ethnicity, particularly in academic or professional contexts—using the language of “allies” and “identity”—might deter Indigenous people and other minorities who are genuinely interested in joining science or engineering departments?
In other words, does the intense focus on Indigeneity as identity, when applied to objective disciplines like science, inadvertently create a kind of self-re-racialization that alienates people from universal spaces of inquiry?
Cook: You know what? I hadn’t considered that before, but that’s a critical point.
Let me collect my thoughts without sounding too controversial right off the bat.
But yes—I would have to say yes.
I think all young people—regardless of background—reach a point where they have to decide the direction of their future: career, values, identity. For young people in Indigenous communities, especially on reserves, that decision can be even more complicated.
Some may enter fields like political science, sociology, or psychology, where they can gain knowledge and return to their communities to provide leadership or serve as advocates. That’s admirable.
But here’s where I get stuck: I have difficulty articulating this clearly, and I don’t know if it’s truly possible to keep one foot firmly in the culture and one foot in a scientific discipline—at least not without tension.
And maybe that’s not a fair generalization, either. Take anthropology, for example. That’s a scientific field where you could still honour and explore your cultural background. That could be a space where the two can coexist.
You know what? I don’t have a complete answer to this. It’s something I’d need to think more about. Speaking just for myself, my gut instinct is that I can’t do both. I can’t believe in the cultural stories as truths, and, at the same time, I am fully committed to science. But that’s just me—and I wouldn’t want to impose that view on others.
This is probably a research project in the making. We need a proper survey of Indigenous students—which career paths they’ve taken, especially those who’ve pursued STEM fields—and what kinds of internal or external tensions they’ve experienced. That’s your next project right there.
Jacobsen: Is there a kind of taboo around pursuing formal education—particularly using the academic vocabulary of the Anglophone world? I remember watching a documentary on educational attainment, where a Black British educator pointed out that, for some Black boys in the UK, having a strong English vocabulary was viewed as “acting white.” So, you get this intra-cultural stigma where academic achievement becomes a source of social deterrence.
Do you think something like that might be at play in Indigenous communities in Canada, too—where embracing science or formal academic discourse is seen as stepping away from the culture?
Cook: That’s an interesting question. I don’t know if I’ve experienced that.
I haven’t noticed students avoiding academic vocabulary in some Indigenous Studies classes I’ve taken at Trent University. The conversation is usually conducted as you’d expect in any university-level seminar. I didn’t get the sense that anyone was being stigmatized for speaking in that way or that it was seen as “too white.” Based on my experience, I haven’t witnessed that dynamic.
Jacobsen: Fair enough. Another way humanism is often summarized internationally is with the triad: reason, compassion, and science. Where do you see sufficient overlap between that kind of humanist framework and the values within Anishinaabe culture? I mean that we’ve talked about birch bark, the sacredness of nature, and the spiritual worldview in Anishinaabe culture, where rocks, trees, and rivers all have spirits. That’s quite different from a scientific-naturalist framework.
So, where do you see alignment points in broad strokes—places where secular humanism and Anishinaabe worldview might meaningfully intersect?
Cook: So there are some areas of overlap, though not necessarily the ones people assume. Given some of the things I’ve experienced—and again, it’s hard to define this solely as “Anishinaabe culture” because it has shifted quite a bit over my lifetime—I’d say the places where mainstream society and secular humanism intersect with Indigenous culture are rooted in respect.
That includes respect for history, traditions, culture, and older people—I’ll say older people rather than elders since the term elder has specific ceremonial and cultural significance.
There’s also respect for all living things, which is where environmentalism or environmental stewardship comes in. Then there’s the idea of balancing our lives—the physical, social, and emotional aspects of being. Even values like diversity and inclusion are embedded in Anishinaabe culture to varying degrees.
I’d also mention the pursuit of ethics and ethical behaviour. These aspects are part of Anishinaabe traditions and secular humanism’s fundamental premises.
Jacobsen: That’s generally what I was getting at. Far be it from me to be a fan of evangelicalism, but if we take Protestantism more broadly, there are specific values that, while not always embraced to the extreme, have merit. For example, there is an emphasis on work ethic, which has virtue, whether applied to building a family, community, infrastructure, business, or academic excellence.
But I think the dominionist strain—particularly the desire for political control under religious mandates—is corrosive. It’s at odds with the secular aims that most humanists value: freedom of thought, pluralism, and individual rights.
On the Indigenous side, I don’t gravitate toward supernaturalism, but I see value in the naturalistic emphasis found in many Indigenous spiritual teachings. It’s concrete and practical and reflects a deep awareness of interdependence.
The ethic of caring for the environment rather than asserting dominion over it seems far more appropriate—especially given where we are as a planet. So, no culture has a monopoly on wisdom, but I think if we take a fine-grained look at different espoused virtues, there’s a lot we can learn.
Cook: I agree.
Jacobsen: And, of course, we must also acknowledge that espoused values are not always lived. That’s true in every culture. People often say one thing and do another.
Cook: Right—and a lot of that, I think, is related to scale and scope. Most people, outside of those with diagnosed psychopathy or similar disorders, aren’t going out of their way to harm animals or inflict suffering just for the sake of it.
Ethical lapses stem more from systems, pressure, or disconnect than intentional cruelty. Those systems are shaped by histories and structures, not just individuals.
The sheer scale of the challenge—feeding 9 billion people globally—has created a significant tension between ethically desirable and operationally scalable. That’s one of the things I’d say about Indigenous humanism: there’s much talk about ethics, sustainability, and traditional methods. Those ideas are important but also easier to apply in small communities or enterprises.
When you zoom out to the planetary scale, it becomes much harder. Yes, you can rotate crops to preserve soil health. That’s good practice. But then you hit a wall: monocultures exist because they allow for massive food production. And if you remove them without scalable alternatives, you run the risk of people starving.
So while many of us would love to see greater sustainability, better treatment of animals, and more respect for traditional practices—especially in smaller, land-based societies around the world—the hard limits of global logistics can challenge those ideals.
Jacobsen: It becomes an issue of scale and how values operate differently depending on context.
Cook: And that’s where utilitarian philosophy comes into play: Jeremy Bentham. It’s really about doing the least harm when faced with difficult trade-offs.
Again, those ethical frameworks—balancing harms and considering outcomes—aren’t uniquely Indigenous or part of Indigenous humanism. They’re part of global ethical discourse. I’ve often heard atheists say, “If I had to write a list of Ten Commandments, I could come up with seven better ones than the original.”
Jacobsen: [Laughing] That’s a valuable thought experiment.
Cook: Absolutely. It helps clarify what values matter. Because let’s face it: we’re not hunter-gatherers anymore. And while the Haudenosaunee agricultural tradition of planting corn, beans, and squash in the same mound—with a fish for fertilizer—is a brilliant, sustainable method, it’s not practical for feeding billions.
Jacobsen: How much interaction have you had with global Indigenous groups—from places like Western Europe, Latin America, Africa, or elsewhere?
Cook: Virtually none. I’ve interacted with Indigenous Australians and am familiar with some of their traditions. And I’ve only had limited interactions with Inuit here in Canada. That’s why I try not to generalize too broadly. I know my cultural neighbourhood and try to speak from that place.
Jacobsen: Do you watch the news much?
Cook: Every day.
Jacobsen: When it comes to Indigenous issues—as they’re often referred to in Canadian media—what are the things that mainstream outlets are getting right, what are they getting wrong, and what are they ignoring or failing to cover adequately? I’m thinking specifically in terms of factual accuracy and proportionality.
Cook: That’s a big one. I think it’s hard to get mainstream media to pay attention to Indigenous issues unless Indigenous people themselves create what looks like a crisis.
Take the example of Chief Theresa Spence and her hunger strike. That pushed attention toward the Idle No More movement across Canada. It wasn’t until thousands of us took to the streets, raised flags, and blocked bridges that the broader public started to see issues like many First Nations communities lacking clean drinking water. These communities have been on boil water advisories for over 50 years.
That’s a critical issue—and it’s one that’s barely covered. It occasionally pops up in the media, but there’s no consistent attention. And because of that, municipal, provincial, and federal governments only respond when there’s noise. Even the current Liberal government, which talks a lot about reconciliation and Indigenous rights, hasn’t made anywhere near the progress they promised. And I think part of that is because mainstream media is not holding them accountable—there’s no sense of urgency being communicated to the broader public.
Jacobsen: So, what does the media get right, wrong, and ignore? What would you say?
Cook: Okay, let’s break it down.
- What they get right: Occasionally, the media does highlight real issues—like lack of clean water or specific Truth and Reconciliation Commission (TRC) recommendations. But it’s usually episodic and reactive, not consistent or systemic.
- What they get wrong: Often, there’s a lack of nuance and a tendency toward sensationalism. For example, when unmarked graves were discovered at former residential school sites, the coverage quickly escalated to headlines about mass murder—even in international outlets like the New York Times. The reality is deeply tragic, yes, but these were not mass executions. They were individual deaths, many from neglect, abuse, or disease. It was still horrific, but how it was framed in the media lacked historical and forensic context. That reporting distorts the conversation and leads to reaction instead of reflection.
- What they ignore: So much. Policy follow-up, for example—how many of the 94 Calls to Action from the TRC have been implemented? How is funding allocated to on-reserve infrastructure? Or the legal challenges around land back, resource development, and treaty rights? These are complex stories and don’t sell as easily as headlines about protests or conflict.
And the old saying about the media—what is it? “If it bleeds, it leads”?The media is built to chase the dramatic story, not the slow-moving but essential. Unfortunately, that means the real work of reconciliation—the hard, slow, policy-based work—often goes uncovered. When that happens, public pressure fades, and governments don’t feel compelled to act.
I can’t be entirely critical in terms of getting things right. The fact is, Indigenous issues do pop up in the news, and they do receive some visibility. You’ll see coverage of the leadership of various national and provincial Indigenous organizations, and there’s at least some public awareness.
But again, coverage often happens when there’s controversy—incompetence, criticism, or a political failure. The positive, ongoing work tends to be overlooked. So, while I appreciate that Indigenous issues remain somewhat within the mainstream’s awareness, I don’t think the media does an excellent job in terms of in-depth, accurate, or wide-ranging coverage.
Jacobsen: I once interviewed Lee Maracle before she passed away. I don’t recall whether we published it, but I remember something she said that stuck with me. She made a passing remark about how, if you took a river and superimposed a cylinder—completing its spatial circularity rather than thinking in just half or three-quarter arcs—you could use that to calculate the flow or size of the river. It was a fascinating metaphor.
What struck me was how she connected abstract structures, like those found in geometry, quantitative reasoning, or even axioms, with real-world patterns and spatial awareness. That got me thinking: Are there aspects of Indigenous thought or daily practice that incorporate this spatial or abstract reasoning—not through formal schooling in mathematics but through the lived culture itself? I’m curious whether these forms of insight emerged in ways that are just embedded in how people lived—whether nomadically, semi-nomadically, or in place.
Cook: Oh, wow. That’s a great question.
Strangely enough, the first thing that comes to mind is how Plains Indigenous peoples used buffalo hides to record their histories. They did it in a spiral format, starting from the center and spiralling outward, year by year, marking significant events. It’s a circular conception of time, which I’ve always found fascinating. It’s not linear—it emphasizes cycles, return, and continuity.
Another area is astronomy. Our constellations and celestial stories are very different from the ones recognized by European science. But the concept of constellations—linking stars into meaningful shapes that connect to narratives or moral teachings—is shared. It’s another way of imposing structure and meaning on the natural world. The patterns are interpreted differently, but the cognitive process is quite sophisticated.
Even if the outcomes are different—logic, categorization, and relational thinking exist. In many traditions, that reasoning is still embedded within a spiritual framework. There’s usually some spirit or force causing events to unfold. So, even where there’s spatial or numerical thinking, it often comes with a sacred or mythological dimension. That doesn’t make it less analytical—it just means it’s integrated differently than in Western scientific models.
I think in the other direction. The perception of time as cyclical is very prominent.
That’s true for many Indigenous cultures around the world. Time is often seen as cyclical rather than linear because of its close relationship to the natural environment. When you’re living within the rhythms of the land, you begin to observe and internalize the constant cycles of seasons, plants, animals, migration, birth, and death.
Jacobsen: What about the social and ethical culture? Are there aspects of Anishinaabe tradition—like an emphasis on compassion or universal moral principles—that overlap with humanism? For example, in situations like a dispute over food or land, whether with another community or within a family, were there mechanisms of resolution that reflected something like a humanistic ethic?
Cook: That’s an interesting question. I don’t know how to characterize it as a humanistic ethic in the Western sense. But what I find remarkable and unique in Anishinaabe culture is the approach to guiding others. It’s often done through gentle encouragement rather than direct correction or authoritative instruction.
Let’s say a child is doing something dangerous. In mainstream Western culture, a parent might yell, snap, or slap their hand if the child reaches for something hot. But in the Indigenous contexts I’ve been part of, the response is often gentler—more about guiding the child away from harm than punishing them for curiosity.
I remember an example from one of the elders I knew, a remarkable woman. She ran visiting elder programs, going into schools and organizations to share wisdom and offer guidance. One day, she came to me with a concern.
The community near me, which I’m closely tied to, had repatriated a skeleton—the remains of a man who had been identified, through evidence, as Midewiwin. The bones were around 300 years old and had been found off-reserve. The community brought him home and held a traditional Midewiwin ceremony to lay him to rest in their cemetery.
The woman who led the ceremony told me that she felt that the community wasn’t treating the grave with enough respect. Her concern wasn’t expressed in anger or confrontation but with sorrow and gentleness. She felt a sacred duty had been mishandled—not out of malice, but out of forgetfulness or carelessness.
That speaks to a relational ethic—not one rooted in universal rules but in context, relationships, and reverence.
I hesitate to call it “humanism” formally. But there are shared values: compassion, restraint, and guidance without domination. And those principles—whether Indigenous or humanist—have much to offer today’s world.
In modern Anishinaabe culture, that translates to the belief that graves must be well-tended and respectfully maintained. In this case, the elder I mentioned was concerned because the repatriated grave was neglected. She shared her concern with me, and I responded, “No problem—I’ll go back and make sure that it gets done.”
But I was wrong to use that kind of directive language—”I’ll make sure it gets done.” That’s not how guidance works in Anishinaabe culture. You don’t give orders. You don’t tell people what to do or how to behave. Instead, you tell stories, you coach, and you nudge gently. That’s the approach. It’s gentle, respectful, and, in many ways, a beautiful part of the culture. I was counselled to tell the traditional story of Nanaboozho and his fight with his brother. That was the right way to help the community understand why the grave needed to be more carefully tended.
But there are downsides, too.
In a community where alcoholism can be pervasive, for example, people might not intervene. They won’t necessarily step in to stop someone or help them recover. If someone is engaging in self-harm, the traditional approach of non-interference may mean the community stays quiet, even when someone needs help. That’s changing now, thankfully, as many reserves are getting better access to health services, mental health support, and intervention programs.
But culturally, there’s still a tendency toward non-intervention, which can be both a strength and a weakness, depending on the situation.
Jacobsen: That seems like a deeply embedded ethic—one that’s built around respect and autonomy, but that can have real costs when applied rigidly. Are there any parts of your notes you haven’t had a chance to bring up yet—things you think should be included in this conversation?
Cook: Let me take a look. I haven’t even checked my notes in about three hours now. [Laughing] You’ve been good company.
One thing that stands out in my notes, which we haven’t discussed much yet, is how people—especially in more left-leaning or social justice-oriented circles—value Indigenous humanism. I don’t particularly like terms like “woke” or “social justice warrior”—mostly because I think they’re overused and poorly defined—but I think we all know the general type of person I’m talking about: culturally aware, often highly sensitive, and well-intentioned.
These individuals sometimes overvalue Indigenous humanism. I’ve thought about why that might be. I understand why people associate environmental ethics, climate consciousness, and spiritual ecology with Indigenous traditions. There is value there.
However, I suspect that part of the overvaluation is due to intellectual laziness. People latch onto romanticized ideas of Indigenous wisdom without thinking critically about what’s being said or those philosophies’ real-world impact.
For instance, if we’re talking about climate change, and someone says that Indigenous knowledge systems provide foundational insight into global warming, I argue that the actual contribution is limited. Most Indigenous knowledge systems were developed in local ecological contexts, not global climate models. They offer invaluable insight into local environmental shifts but are not a substitute for climate science.
So, yes, if you’re an Inuit in the High Arctic, you’ll notice the dramatic changes in seasonal patterns and temperatures. Your lived experience becomes a powerful data point. But to say that Indigenous humanism provides a universal climate ethic—I think that’s an overstatement.
That’s a necessary clarification. Respecting a tradition doesn’t mean inflating its scope. It means understanding it on its terms and recognizing its value within the context in which it was developed.
If you live in a small community north of Toronto, on a reserve, I can’t imagine that your local weather observations would offer any unique insight that meaningfully contributes to our broader understanding of climate change. That’s not a criticism of local knowledge—it’s just a recognition of scale.
This brings us back to the need for centralized mechanisms to evaluate truth and knowledge—systems that can collect localized observations, synthesize them, and turn them into theories that are then made actionable. That kind of comprehensive perspective is impossible to form solely at the local level—especially when the issues are global in scale.
So, while the ethical and moral frameworks present in Indigenous humanism are admirable—and often very positive—they’re not unique to Indigenous cultures. People all over the world have developed similar values in different ways.
I guess the summary for me is this: Indigenous humanism is often overvalued, especially by the “woke” or “social justice warrior” types. Not because the ideas are wrong—but because people sometimes elevate them without adequate critical reflection or contextual understanding.
Jacobsen: That’s an important distinction. Lloyd Robertson wrote about Indigeneity and humanism and argued—rightly, I think—that they can be compatible if you frame the conceptual puzzle carefully.
Now, you’re focusing on Indigenous humanism and its relationship to secular humanism. The mistake people often make in reasoning isn’t necessarily with the premise but with the categorization of humanism itself.
Many people mistakenly believe that humanism—of any variety—is a political party or ideology. But that’s fundamentally incorrect. The earliest declarations and policy statements, especially those formalized through bodies like Humanists International, are very careful with their language. Humanism emerged as a philosophical life stance—particularly after the barbarism of World War II—in reaction to the atrocities committed under both totalitarianism and religious fundamentalism.
In that sense, humanism is not political as people often frame it. It’s not anti-religious people—it’s anti-theology when theology violates autonomy, critical inquiry, and shared human values. It’s also not a political party, although it can align selectively with political movements that advance secular, evidence-based policy.
Right. Also, groups like Humanists UK carefully show that humanists can fall across the political spectrum. You’ve got Humanists for Labour, Humanist Conservatives, and so on. The philosophical core of humanism is one thing—how you apply that philosophy in politics is another.
So we shouldn’t expect humanists to vote as a bloc, though you might see that happen when a party becomes too deeply entrenched in religious fundamentalism or violates secular norms.
That’s one piece. The other issue is this concept of “wokeism” or identity politics—or whatever form of it people are reacting to. What often happens is that humanistic language gets co-opted for tribal political goals. And that can distort what humanism is actually about.
They come from good intentions and can undoubtedly have positive effects, particularly in mobilizing people around important causes. But where people seem to react negatively is with the language, the intimidation tactics, and the tendency to cancel rather than engage. That creates a moral pressure that can become alienating.
There’s also sometimes a lack of empirical rigour, especially compared to the standards you’d traditionally expect from humanist approaches—where careful reasoning, evidence, and thoughtful dialogue are foundational before you become “activated” around an issue. Of course, something might trigger you emotionally or historically, and that might lead you to pursue deeper research. But too often, it feels like the research is skipped, and people go straight to outrage.
Cook: We’re seeing a similar dynamic emerge in the context of Indigenous humanism. There’s cultural meaning, yes—but there’s also a risk of conceptual inflation and politicization, identical to what’s happening in other identity-based or ideologically driven spaces.
Jacobsen: That brings me back to what I raised about Dr. Lloyd Robertson’s paper earlier. He’s deliberate in using the term indigeneity rather than Indigenous humanism per se. He argues that Indigeneity—the full range of characteristics, histories, and identities that define someone as Indigenous—can be integrated with humanist thought if the framework is structured correctly.
So, moving beyond whether Indigenous humanism and secular humanism conflict, what about Indigeneity and humanism more broadly—can they coexist as a single, integrated worldview?
Cook: I’ve heard the term indigeneity before. Lloyd’s used it with me in conversation a few times. And if we define it broadly—all the things that make a person Indigenous, culturally, historically, linguistically, spiritually—without trying to narrow it down too tightly, then there’s no incompatibility.
The difficulty comes when we start labelling things. Humanism’s values can easily be co-opted by people with genuine ethical commitments or those more interested in virtue signalling. That’s not unique to humanism; it’s true for any moral framework.
While we were briefly pausing, I asked Google to pull up a list of humanist values to see how they read in plain language.
Let’s take a few:
- Dignity and worth of every person—hard to argue with unless you’re invoking the logic of 1940s fascism.
- Reason and science—even the most devout religious believers often claim science supports their views, even if it’s been twisted to fit.
- Ethics, compassion, and empathy—again, universally defensible.
- Human rights—yes, people sometimes limit them to “people who look and sound like them,” but the idea remains powerful.
- Social justice and equality are widely appealing and challenging to reject outright.
Honestly, this list reads more like what the Ten Commandments should have looked like. Instead of a list of “thou shalt nots,” it’s a positive ethical framework.
Jacobsen: So, in essence, these values are philosophically universal, making them easily embraced but also misused.
Cook: It’s easy to co-opt this language for your cause—whether ethical or performative. But the values themselves? They’re very hard to argue with—and I think that’s why properly understood humanism can be a meeting place, not a battleground.
When we use the word Indigeneity, there’s nothing in Indigenous culture that would contradict core values like dignity, worth, or reason. The definition of science might differ from the Western model, but what is often called Indigenous science still involves observational knowledge passed down through generations.
Take willow bark, for example. It contains acetylsalicylic acid—the active ingredient in aspirin. Indigenous people knew it could relieve pain, even though they didn’t see the chemistry. That’s still a form of empirical, experience-based science.
Ethics, human rights, and social justice are all values Indigenous people would recognize and affirm, whether explicitly or in practice. So, Indigeneity fits very comfortably with humanist values.
The only area where I find some tension is naturalism—the idea that the universe is governed strictly by natural laws, without supernatural forces. That’s where worldviews can diverge. In many Indigenous cultures, spiritual forces or non-material entities are part of how knowledge is explained or understood.
So, while I don’t think anyone would argue with the core principles of humanism, the point of difference lies in the belief that you can know things in ways that aren’t empirical or naturalistic. Aside from that, there’s widespread respect for the ethical foundation of humanism, even if the epistemological framing differs.
Jacobsen: That’s well put. And to nod to critics and defenders of those labelled as “woke,” something is interesting about how people signal their values. On one hand, critics might point to something like a rainbow lapel pin or a cross necklace—as a way of saying, “I’m a good ally” or “I’m a good Christian.” It becomes a kind of virtue signalling—an external signifier of internal moral standing.
Are there parallels in Indigenous culture today, particularly among younger generations—or even some elders—where there’s an increased use of symbolic items or participation that might not carry deep personal meaning but instead function as a cultural signifier?
Cook: I think I understand what you’re asking: whether some people are going through the motions—participating in culture symbolically without necessarily believing in the deeper spiritual or philosophical layers.
And the answer is absolutely.
In Anishinaabe culture, for instance, there’s a widely recognized symbol—the medicine wheel, sometimes called a unity pin. It’s a circle divided into four quadrants:
- White (North)
- Yellow (East)
- Red (South)
- Black (West)
An entire lifelong system of teachings is embedded in that wheel. It includes medicine teachings, stages of life, seasons, directions, and spiritual roles. However, not everyone who wears the medicine wheel engages deeply with those teachings. Some wear it simply as a cultural marker—a way of showing identity or solidarity.
That’s not necessarily a bad thing. But yes, it can become the Indigenous equivalent of a symbolic lapel pin. And just like in other communities, symbols can be used meaningfully or superficially.
It’s the Anishinaabe equivalent of a cross on your lapel. For a Christian, the cross is supposed to represent all the teachings and values of the faith. But for some, it’s simply an accessory—”I don’t know what it means, but it looks good on my jacket.” It’s symbolic shorthand, like an American flag pin on a senator’s lapel.
You see medicine wheels all over the place, and I could talk for days—possibly months—about the depth of teachings that go into those four colours arranged in a circle. So much culture, history, philosophy, and spiritual guidance are tied into that symbol. And yet, I don’t wear one.
Because, like with other symbolic items, some people wear it without engaging with its meaning. You’ll find people proudly wearing a cross who can’t explain even the basic tenets of Christianity. Or LGBTQ+ individuals wearing the Pride flag without necessarily understanding the struggles of the ’60s and ’70s—the history of protest, persecution, and civil rights activism that made those symbols possible.
So yes, absolutely—virtue signalling exists within Indigenous communities as well.
Jacobsen: That brings to mind the idea of private or protected knowledge found in some Indigenous traditions. You mentioned earlier that there are certain things you cannot speak about publicly—because doing so could lead to pushback or even breach community expectations.
That sounds reminiscent of Freemasonry—where inner circles, ritual practices, and esoteric teachings are passed down within structured hierarchies. It stands in contrast, in some ways, to humanism, which leans heavily on transparency and open inquiry.
So my question is this: What role does that kind of secrecy or ritual exclusivity play in Anishinaabe society—either historically or in the present day?
Cook: That’s a great and tricky question. Yes, you’ll find elitism in ceremonial groups like the Midewiwin Lodge—but it isn’t purely negative. It shows that members earn their place through real commitment and participation, creating a clear hierarchy.
A useful, if imperfect, comparison is the Shriners (an offshoot of Freemasonry). Structurally, the Midewiwin works the same way: you progress through degrees, and each degree unlocks deeper teachings. Whether those teachings focus on practical skills or spiritual wisdom often depends on your own path and experience.
Advancing has always carried a cost. In the past, members offered goods—livestock or trade items. Today, it usually means significant travel, time, and money. Those costs both limit membership and prove dedication: they show you’re serious about this path.
Like Freemasonry, the Midewiwin includes rituals—special handshakes or signs that mark your level. The details differ, but the organizational logic is similar. (I’m not a Freemason myself; I’ve drawn this understanding from research and conversations.)
In the Midewiwin Lodge, each level has its own rituals and secret knowledge. If you haven’t reached a given level, you don’t participate and you don’t observe. It’s a deliberately structured system.
Jacobsen: That’s a fascinating comparison—not in terms of belief systems, but organizational logic, ritual structure, and gatekeeping of knowledge.What else is on your mind?
Cook: [Laughing] We’ve covered a lot.
I keep thinking about the word “indigeneity” and how I’m trying to understand it. Is there a helpful distinction between ethnicity and culture here?
Take someone Jewish, for example. They can be ethnically Jewish but secular, with no religious inclination, or the reverse—they can be religiously Jewish but not ethnically.
I wonder if Indigeneity works similarly. It can describe someone’s ethnic identity or heritage, regardless of whether they fully engage with the cultural or spiritual practices traditionally associated with it. Maybe that’s why I can reconcile humanism with Indigeneity—because it’s about roots, background, and shared history.
But I struggle to reconcile humanism with “Indigenous humanism,” especially when the latter emphasizes supernatural belief systems or non-naturalistic knowledge. Humanism’s focus on science, reason, and naturalism creates tension.
Indigeneity can be descriptive and inclusive, while “Indigenous humanism” might sometimes involve conflicting epistemologies—mainly if the framework includes magical thinking or metaphysical assertions.
Jacobsen: One from left field: In history, if you could have dinner with Pontiac or Tecumseh, who would you choose?
Cook: [Laughing] Wow.
Honestly, I would’ve loved to have had dinner with Chief Joseph of the Nez Perce. From everything I’ve read, he was a remarkable human being—deeply ethical, thoughtful, and courageous.
Between Tecumseh and Pontiac? That’s harder to answer. One of my elders, who passed away in 2013, was named Angus Pontiac—a direct descendant of the Pontiac. So, out of respect, I’ll stay quiet on that one. [Laughing]
Jacobsen: Fair enough. How about something more contemporary—what do you think of Adam Beach’s acting?
Cook: I like Adam Beach. He brings a lot of depth and vulnerability to his characters. He’s got great range. I know Adam Beach. He’s a pretty good actor. He’s been cast in more comic or comedic roles; sometimes, he plays them with humour. But he’s also done some serious work that is quite strong.
[Laughing] I’ve got five more names I could throw out, but I’m not sure how far down that rabbit hole you want to go. One of them is Tom Jackson—he’s a friend of mine.
Jacobsen: I was thinking about William Whipple Warren, who was of Ojibwe and European descent and authored History of the Ojibwe People in 1885.
Cook: Oh—that does ring a bell. I have a very extensive library and that book is included.
Jacobsen: Or Louise Erdrich or Chief Peguis?
Cook: Chief Peguis—yes, that name rings a bell. I’m struggling to recall the details off the top of my head. He was a prominent leader, but I’d need to double-check the historical specifics.
Jacobsen: One more: Autumn Peltier—born February 2004. A young activist, she’s spoken at the United Nations, criticized environmental policies, and received awards like the International Children’s Peace Prize. She’s a leading voice in the global environmental movement.
Cook: I wasn’t aware of her. I was thinking of Leonard Peltier—he was part of the American Indian Movement, and he’s currently serving time in a U.S. federal prison, accused of involvement in the murder of an FBI agent during a standoff in 1975.
Jacobsen: Possibly a relation—but maybe not.
Cook: The structure of bands and surnames can be more complex than people outside Indigenous communities realize.
Jacobsen: Many First Nations in Canada have quite a small population. The numbers drop significantly once you get past the first 2,000 to 3,000 members.
Cook: We have a Mississauga Anishinaabe reserve about an hour and a half north of here. There are only about three surnames on the entire reserve.
Now, that doesn’t mean everyone’s related—though some are. But many are not. And a lot of that traces back to residential schools. When children were taken, they were often renamed. If your name was “Little Squirrel,” that wasn’t good enough for the school system. So, kids were given new first names, often English or biblical.
In many cases, they were also assigned the last name of the Indian Agent in charge of that reserve. That’s how family names were standardized, and that’s why surnames aren’t reliable indicators of lineage in many Indigenous communities in Canada.
Jacobsen: That’s incredibly revealing—how naming was institutionalized and how identity was systematically altered.
Cook: When people trace ancestry by surname, they often run into dead ends or false assumptions. Our names were reshaped by colonial policies, not by our customs or kinship systems. And that legacy still lingers.
Here’s a closing comment, I suppose:
I’ve said things today that could be perceived as critical, but I’ve lived an extraordinary life in the Native community. I’ve spent years balancing one foot in the scientific world and one foot in Indigenous culture. I love Indigenous culture deeply, but at some point, it became impossible for me to reconcile its spiritual components with my atheism and humanism.
Still, I have immense respect for the challenges Indigenous communities face and the progress they’ve made. And if people rally around something like Indigenous humanism as a unifying framework—even if I see tensions between that and secular humanism—I won’t take that away from them. If it brings meaning and solidarity, that’s their opium, to borrow a phrase.
Jacobsen: Thank you very much.
Cook: Thanks, Scott. I’ve enjoyed our conversation.
Jacobsen: Take care, David.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
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CCI Kenya CEO Rishi Jatania discusses the company’s flagship sustainable facility in Tatu City, designed to align with global sustainability goals while fostering business efficiency. The facility prioritizes energy efficiency, water conservation, and sustainable materials, earning EDGE certification. Tatu City’s infrastructure and sustainability focus made it the ideal location. Innovations like self-shading façades and high-performance glass enhance employee well-being while reducing energy use. Local sourcing supports the economy, and partnerships like BuildHer promote workforce diversity. CCI Kenya plans to expand with a second facility, creating 5,000 jobs and reinforcing its commitment to sustainable development and economic empowerment.discusses the company’s flagship sustainable facility in Tatu City, designed to align with global sustainability goals while fostering business efficiency. The facility prioritizes energy efficiency, water conservation, and sustainable materials, earning EDGE certification. Tatu City’s infrastructure and sustainability focus made it the ideal location. Innovations like self-shading façades and high-performance glass enhance employee well-being while reducing energy use. Local sourcing supports the economy, and partnerships like BuildHer promote workforce diversity. CCI Kenya plans to expand with a second facility, creating 5,000 jobs and reinforcing its commitment to sustainable development and economic empowerment.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What motivated CCI Kenya to invest in a flagship sustainable facility in Tatu City?
Rishi Jatania: The development of the flagship sustainable facility in Tatu City was driven by the vision to create an environmentally responsible space that meets the needs of modern businesses while aligning with global sustainability goals. This included a commitment to minimizing environmental impact through energy efficiency, water conservation, and the use of sustainable materials, all in line with green building standards. The facility was also designed with future-proofing in mind, aiming to be resilient and adaptable to climate change, supporting long-term growth and operational efficiency. Additionally, the development sought to integrate seamlessly into the local community, offering a sustainable environment for people to thrive in. Positioned in Tatu City as a modern, international business hub, the facility was designed to meet the growing demand for high-performance workplaces that balance business success with environmental stewardship. This flagship facility represents a forward-thinking approach to urban development, fostering both local and global sustainability goals while contributing to a thriving business ecosystem.
Jacobsen: Why did CCI Kenya select Tatu City as the location for this project?
Jatania: Tatu City offers a prime location with easy access to Nairobi, key transportation networks, and proximity to both local and international markets, making it ideal for CCI’s expanding operations. The city features advanced infrastructure, including state-of-the-art contact centre and reliable power and water systems, providing a solid foundation for efficient business operations and connectivity. Additionally, Tatu City’s focus on environmentally sustainable development aligns perfectly with CCI’s commitment to sustainability, with its green spaces and eco-friendly practices making it the ideal location for CCI’s flagship sustainable facility.
Jacobsen: What sustainability criteria did CCI Kenya prioritize in order to achieve EDGE (Excellence in Design for Greater Efficiencies) certification and secure recognition at the African Business Awards?
Jatania: To earn EDGE certification and win prestigious awards like the African Business Awards, a project must meet stringent sustainability criteria focused on resource efficiency. The flagship facility in Tatu City exemplifies this by reducing energy consumption by 20% through efficient systems, renewable energy, and advanced HVAC and lighting. It also cuts water usage by 20% with the use of low-flow fixtures, water-saving appliances, and rainwater harvesting systems. True to Tatu City’s commitment to sustainable development, the facility uses locally sourced, recycled, and low-impact materials, further minimizing its carbon footprint. Designed to promote natural light and improve air quality through smart building design, the facility is built for resilience against extreme weather and climate change. Additionally, the construction process minimizes waste, promoting recycling and reuse of materials. These sustainability features not only align with Tatu City’s green vision but also set a benchmark for future developments in the region.
Jacobsen: How do the self-shading façades and high-performance glass in the building align with CCI Kenya’s commitment to energy efficiency and employee well-being?
Jatania: At CCI, we prioritize both sustainability and the well-being of our employees, and the self-shading façades and high-performance glass in our building reflect this. These design elements work in tandem to block excess sunlight, keeping the building cooler during the summer and warmer in the winter. As a result, we reduce the need for air conditioning and heating, significantly saving energy. Beyond energy efficiency, these features help improve the workplace environment by allowing more natural light to flow into the building. This boosts employee mood, enhances focus, and drives productivity. Moreover, by maintaining a stable indoor temperature, we create a comfortable work setting with fewer distractions caused by temperature fluctuations. These innovations not only contribute to a healthier, more productive workspace but also align with our overall sustainability goals at CCI.
Jacobsen: In what ways did sourcing local timber and stone contribute to the sustainability goals and the local economy? ( Sent the question to GRIT/GREA)
Jatania: As per the representative at Eneo, use of timber and stone in the building was minimal, and where these were incorporated, they were sourced locally. By sourcing locally, this promoted responsible sourcing from certified timber mills and quarries. Local sourcing also reduced the project’s overall carbon footprint as it eliminated the need for long distance transportation. Additionally, it provided direct benefit to the local businesses in timber processing, quarrying and transportation fostering job creation and supporting the circulation of money within the local economy.
Jacobsen: How has the collaboration with BuildHer supported CCI’s efforts toward workforce inclusion and diversity?
Jatania: CCI’s partnership with BuildHer focuses on empowering women in leadership, with a strong emphasis on providing training and employment opportunities in sectors where women are often underrepresented. This collaboration has enabled women to gain valuable skills for career advancement and has supported the development of a diverse and inclusive workforce. By increasing female representation in our workforce, we are not only promoting gender equality but also encouraging innovation and diverse perspectives within our company.
Through this partnership, we are breaking down gender barriers by challenging traditional stereotypes and offering equal opportunities in industries previously dominated by men. The collaboration also aims to build a skilled and sustainable workforce, contributing to CCI Kenya’s growth and enhancing the country’s labor market. Our commitment to women’s empowerment is further reflected in our leadership structure, with 67% of leadership positions held by women. Beyond the company, this partnership has had a positive impact on the wider community, inspiring other businesses to adopt similar workforce inclusion practices and supporting the economic empowerment of women across Kenya.
Jacobsen: What key innovations in this project do you believe will set a new standard for future call center developments in Kenya?
Jatania: The CCI Kenya flagship facility in Tatu City sets a groundbreaking bechmark for a call center developments in Kenya. It’s 97% sustainable state-of-the-art building that features, solar panels, energy efficient, self-shading façade and high performance glass that optimizes energy used by reducing reliance on air conditioning and heating while allowing natural light to penetrate the space.
Achieving EGDE certification is a recognistion for excellence in sustainability, energy and water effeciency – the facility illustrates how a business can embrace sustainable building practices without compromising operational performace. The integration of renewable energy, low-flow water fictures, and rain water harvesting systems exemplifies a commitment to large-scale resource convservation.
Jacobsen: Does CCI Global have plans to replicate this sustainable approach in other regions, and what lessons can be shared with other organizations from this initiative?
Jatania: Our second building in Tatu City is currently under construction and is set to play a pivotal role in driving both economic growth and social impact in the region. Once completed, it will create an additional 5,000 jobs, providing meaningful employment opportunities to individuals from underserved communities. This expansion aligns with our commitment to supporting local development and fostering economic empowerment, particularly in areas where access to quality employment has been limited.
The jobs created will span various roles, ranging from customer service to managerial positions, and will help upskill the local workforce through specialized training programs, ensuring long-term career growth for individuals in the community. This initiative will not only contribute to the economic stability of the region but will also encourage a more inclusive, diverse workforce, where people from all walks of life have the chance to thrive.
By providing these job opportunities, we aim to uplift the community, promote financial independence, and enhance the overall well-being of those who may otherwise face limited employment prospects. Furthermore, this development will strengthen the local economy by attracting further investment, boosting infrastructure, and fostering a sustainable cycle of growth that benefits everyone. Our second building is more than just an expansion—it’s an opportunity to make a lasting, positive impact on the lives of thousands of people.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Rishi.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/22
Irina Tsukerman is a New York-based human rights and national security lawyer and Scarab Rising, Inc. president. She specializes in information warfare, national security, and geopolitical analysis, focusing on MENA, Eastern Europe, and Central Asia. In an extensive interview, she explains how the West is losing the information war due to weakened public diplomacy, internal targeting, and the rise of hostile state-sponsored narratives. She argues that modern information warfare is non-lethal but strategically disruptive, eroding trust and empowering adversaries like Russia, China, and Iran. Tsukerman highlights the evolution of hybrid warfare, noting Ukraine’s innovative counter-disinformation strategies despite Russia’s sheer volume and persistence. She also examines absurd and dangerous dynamics in intelligence circles, including propaganda tools like Jackson Hinkle, and stresses that real intelligence work is far more mundane than Hollywood’s portrayals. On prisoner exchanges and economic warfare, she critiques both U.S. and Russian short-termism compared to China and Iran’s long-term strategies. She emphasizes the importance of cybersecurity, the rise of cyber militias, and ideological hacker collectives. Finally, she underscores how volatile governance and declining institutional awareness—especially in the U.S.—have created vulnerabilities in intelligence, counterintelligence, and strategic policymaking in a new era of digital-age conflict.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Irina Tsukerman. She is a New York-based human rights and national security lawyer and geopolitical analyst. She specializes in national security, information warfare, and foreign policy, focusing on strategic dynamics in the MENA region, Eastern Europe, and Central Asia. She is the president of Scarab Rising, Inc., a media and security strategy firm. With a background in intelligence analysis, she focuses on counterintelligence, hybrid warfare, and the intersection of diplomacy, law, and defence. Her work examines how information warfare and non-state actors influence global security. She frequently comments on U.S. foreign policy, regional conflict, and global risk, contributing to international discourse on sustaining democratic resilience amid authoritarian influence and transnational challenges. Thank you for joining me again. How do you define the current landscape of information warfare? We are not yet hacking people’s brains.
Tsukerman: We are losing the war—by “we,” I mean the West and the U.S.
Information warfare means dominance in the information space. Victory involves influencing perception, shaping decisions, and disrupting adversaries. We’re not making gains. We’re weakening our position by shutting down public diplomacy tools like Voice of America, allowing individuals with foreign allegiances into policymaking, promoting foreign propagandists, and deprioritizing truth and transparency. We’ve turned information operations inward, targeting domestic critics instead of foreign adversaries. This weakens our strategic posture and empowers hostile actors.
By “the other side,” I mean not only adversaries like Russia, China, or Iran but also opportunistic actors exploiting disinformation to weaken democracies. Even neutral states can become conduits for hostile narratives when they see the West as inconsistent.
Jacobsen: How is this more dangerous than conventional warfare?
Tsukerman: It complements conventional warfare. Deception, psychological operations, and influence campaigns have long been part of military strategy—from Sun Tzu to Soviet active measures.
You cannot win militarily without managing perception. What’s changed is the scale and speed of digital technologies, allowing actors to bypass defences and directly target populations. These tactics may be non-lethal but can cause destabilization, incite violence, and erode institutional trust.
Jacobsen: Has the war in Ukraine redefined information or hybrid warfare, or just increased investment?
Tsukerman: It has not redefined it but has highlighted its centrality. Hybrid warfare—integrating military force with cyberattacks, disinformation, and economic coercion—was already key to Russian doctrine, primarily through the Gerasimov Doctrine. The Ukraine war demonstrated how these tools work in tandem.
It forced governments and the public to take information warfare seriously—not as peripheral, but as central to modern conflict.
Information dominance remains information dominance, but the war in Ukraine has fostered new tactics and creativity. Ukraine has been innovative in drawing global attention to its struggle by overcoming Russia’s advantage in sheer volume of output. It has done this by finding allies—particularly in the West—and amplifying its counterintelligence and counter-disinformation efforts.
Russia continues to sway in parts of the West, particularly in the United States. It is not definitively losing even in Europe; despite governmental efforts to contain it and enforce sanctions, it cannot easily be circumvented. Russia has still made notable gains in the political arena, translating to fractures on the battlefield. NATO and EU assistance remains fragmented and contested, with ongoing debates about the scope and impact of support. These political divisions create opportunities for Russia to exploit through information warfare. Even when it is not winning outright, it manages to avoid losing simply by the volume of resources it devotes to the information space.
We see this in the increased Russian budgets for information operations—official propaganda—not including the covert funds from intelligence agencies, which are untraceable. These are public allocations to entities like RT and state-sponsored initiatives in the West. The propagandists involved are not hidden assets but are linked to state institutions. Russia’s century-long history of influence operations gives it an advantage, even when it uses outdated and transparent methods. Its persistence, funding, and reliance on proven strategies give it a lead, especially compared to Ukraine and Western countries that lack the infrastructure or political will to match that effort.
Jacobsen: What is a striking example of how strange or absurd the intelligence and counterintelligence world can become?
Tsukerman: One of the most bizarre examples involves Jackson Hinkle. Some have accused him of secretly working for U.S. intelligence, travelling to adversarial countries to collect information, and avoiding arrest because of it.
In reality, Hinkle began as a far-left activist. As a teenager, he was recruited by Tulsi Gabbard. They both later appeared at an event organized by the widow of Lyndon LaRouche—a fringe U.S. political figure often seen as aligned with Russian interests and known for influencing Ronald Reagan’s Strategic Defense Initiative (SDI). After LaRouche’s death, his widow continued his operations, identifying public figures—journalists, politicians, activists—who could serve as agents of influence.
Hinkle eventually shifted from a hard-left communist stance to a pro-Trump, “MAGA communist” position. His political messaging is now a strange mix of radical leftist ideology and far-right populism. Others in this network include figures like Matt Gaetz and Robert F. Kennedy Jr., who have found platforms and audiences through contrarian politics and amplified visibility, often benefiting from state-aligned propaganda networks.
Hinkle later got engaged to a Russian model, began travelling to Russia, and publicly praised Moscow and Vladimir Putin. He became a vocal propagandist. Initially, he had a minimal social media following—around 1,000 to 1,500 followers. That changed after Elon Musk acquired X (formerly Twitter), where the platform actively promoted and boosted Hinkle. His visibility increased significantly. He began appearing on more platforms, including a podcast with Tulsi Gabbard in 2019, when she was still rising within the Democratic Party, and again in the early 2020s.
Over time, he associated with others in similar circles and gained further exposure. His relationship with the Russian model ended—she reportedly left him partly due to his lack of intellectual depth. While that may not have been the only reason, his limited analytical capacity was a notable issue, even for someone otherwise aligned with his views.
He later travelled to Venezuela, where he was allegedly under the protection of Maduro’s forces for his safety. He ventured into areas where he had no reason to be—even assuming he had any valid reason to be in Venezuela. He also joined a European delegation to Yemen to meet with the Houthis, where he publicly opposed U.S. airstrikes and contradicted official U.S. policy despite his pro-Trump stance. His messaging became increasingly erratic and contradictory. He has also promoted Hamas, although there is no confirmed evidence that he has travelled to Gaza. That may still happen once access is possible, though going to Gaza is highly dangerous.
Despite this, he has been welcomed by various authoritarian regimes. Many have questioned who is funding his extensive travel. So far, there has been no official investigation. After a month-long trip to Moscow—during which he openly promoted Russian interference in U.S. elections—he claimed he was stopped and questioned by TSA upon return and complained about it, asserting his constitutional rights were violated. However, he was not arrested; to my knowledge, there is no formal investigation into his finances or activities.
He continues to travel the world, praising dictatorships, attacking the U.S. and its allies, promoting fringe ideologies, conspiracy theories, antisemitism, and supporting terrorist organizations. He is a clear example of someone likely aligned with foreign intelligence interests. Ironically, some accuse him of being a U.S. intelligence asset using anti-American rhetoric to gain trust in adversarial circles, gather information, and funnel it back. However, there is no evidence supporting that theory.
Surprisingly, nothing is happening to him. But why would it? Even if he publicly disagrees with some U.S. policies, many others do, and they are not investigated. In his case, some who align with his broader messaging may view him as applicable, even if unintentionally.
There is no clear evidence that a foreign government funds its activities. Even if his actions indicate a strong alignment with Russian interests, I doubt he will face any consequences from this administration over the next four years. The only real risk to him would be if he displeased or became a liability to one of the various foreign handlers or networks he may be involved with.
He is highly disposable, not a high-level asset. He holds no official position allowing him to provide Russia, Iran, or any other state with classified intelligence. He is a visible and effective propagandist, not someone with direct access to sensitive information. His value lies in influence, recruitment, and amplification, not espionage.
A different example is Jack Posobiec, who operates within the U.S. and has a background in U.S. military intelligence. He has leveraged those skills to promote conspiracy theories such as Pizzagate, which earned him a large following among what used to be considered the fringe right and also among foreign-aligned audiences. Over time, he and his network moved into more mainstream conservative spaces. He launched media outlets, gained traction, and hosted Republican figures discussing foreign and domestic policy.
He was even invited on a Department of Defense trip as a journalist during the Trump administration, indicating high-level acceptance and normalization of such figures. This raises the question: Why would someone with intelligence training promote narratives aligned with Russian disinformation? Why is someone like that now positioned as a credible media figure?
The answer lies in strategy. The administration actively integrated these personalities into their media ecosystem to replace traditional mainstream journalism. Posobiec is not an anomaly.
Another figure is Paul Joseph Watson, sometimes called “King Paul,” who claimed he was unknowingly paid by Russian entities operating out of a troll factory. He accepted large sums—hundreds of thousands of dollars. This network includes others such as Dave Rubin and Tim Pool. These individuals, once on the fringe, are now embedded in the White House press pool and continue their work. While some have adjusted their messaging to align more closely with official administration narratives, the core infrastructure and influence remain intact.
These are examples of individuals applicable to foreign intelligence goals. There is ample justification for counterintelligence investigations. Yet, instead of scrutiny, these figures are embraced—both by the administration and by the MAGA base. They are held up as alternatives to what is characterized as a “deep state” conspiracy embedded within the traditional intelligence community. Ironically, while the actual intelligence apparatus is being hollowed out by policy and personnel changes, this parallel media-intelligence ecosystem is being strengthened.
These are unusual cases. Typically, intelligence operations rely on low-profile assets to influence policy subtly. Here, overt activity—conspiracy theory promotion, alignment with hostile state narratives, and public engagement—is rewarded and institutionalized. That is what makes it so bizarre and concerning.
Traditionally, someone with foreign ties would present as overtly patriotic—burrowing into institutions, gathering intelligence discreetly, and influencing their environment from within. They would avoid displaying clear links to foreign powers. What we see now is unprecedented: individuals with blatant foreign sympathies are openly promoted, often with institutional support—both from abroad and within the U.S.
Previously, you might see one or two fringe figures strategically elevated to inject certain narratives into mainstream discourse. Even then, they usually had relatively conventional backgrounds—low-level journalists or obscure commentators given visibility by Russia or its allies. Their integration into public life operated within a framework of relative normalcy.
Today, we are witnessing the rise of highly eccentric, attention-seeking personalities—”internet tools” with bizarre and often theatrical backgrounds—who are being elevated and widely embraced. A shift in local culture has made these anomalies more palatable. While this may seem strange, it is still consistent with Russia’s broader strategy: sow chaos, undermine institutional trust, and polarize American society. The tools and characters have changed, but the strategic objectives remain unchanged.
Jacobsen: Are there modern examples of someone like Mata Hari playing both sides?
Tsukerman: Absolutely. A good example involves Congressman Eric Swalwell, a Democrat. He was reportedly targeted by Fang Fang, a Chinese intelligence operative who posed as a civic activist and became romantically involved with several political figures in Washington. Her activities followed a traditional model of espionage: working through social circles, identifying influential targets, and cultivating them.
Despite her open associations with political elites, she ultimately fled the country without consequence. The case was surprisingly public. One would expect more caution—especially from a sitting member of Congress—regarding close association with someone of questionable foreign ties. In past decades, a politician would have exercised more discretion and thorough vetting, particularly when engaging with foreign nationals linked to adversarial states.
But today, we see a broader decline in judgment and diligence. Politicians who once stuck to domestic controversies now seem indifferent even when scandals involve profound national security implications.
Jacobsen: Hollywood has given us this image of intelligence work: lone operatives, secret missions, seductive spies, and Bond villains with henchmen like Oddjob. These are caricatures—but how does real intelligence work compare?
Tsukerman: The reality is far more mundane. Most intelligence operations involve paperwork, bureaucracy, and slow, methodical analysis. Whether it is American officers working under diplomatic cover abroad or foreign agents infiltrating U.S. institutions, much of the work is procedural and administrative.
While covert missions and high-risk operations exist, most activity focuses on information gathering, establishing trust networks, and maintaining plausible deniability. It is rarely glamorous and certainly not cinematic. Intelligence work is about consistency, subtlety, and understanding long-term strategic goals—far removed from the dramatized Hollywood version.
Regardless of cover, all intelligence operatives must file reports, account for funds, follow directives, and engage in careful counterintelligence to avoid detection. Their roles differ, of course. Those operating under diplomatic cover are more restricted in their movements and operations. Their lives may appear more glamorous because they attend official functions, but they must also balance dual roles: performing diplomatic duties while conducting intelligence work covertly.
By contrast, individuals under journalistic or business covers have more freedom to engage and recruit. While all operatives aim to obtain classified information or insights into foreign priorities, not all intelligence work revolves around state secrets. Often, the goal is to develop sources and networks—individuals who can influence policymakers, open doors for future operations, or serve strategic purposes when needed.
Much of this involves understanding the broader environment—political dynamics, economic vulnerabilities, cultural shifts. Intelligence operatives are often embedded in academia, not just politics or government, to monitor intellectual trends and social movements. Academics may be recruited to organize on-campus actions, including protests or advocacy, or as intermediaries between foreign governments and domestic institutions.
Intelligence work spans a range of collection methods, some more visible or glamorous than others. But all of it is high-risk, highly structured, and subject to oversight. Spies cannot simply freelance; even in the most flexible roles, they operate under clear rules that vary by country and agency.
China, for example, operates an expansive intelligence system. It includes not just formal government agencies but also Communist Party-affiliated organizations. This structure allows hundreds of thousands of individuals to participate in data collection and analysis. China’s apparatus significantly exceeds that of the U.S. in scale and explicitly includes industrial espionage as a core objective—something the U.S. does not formally pursue.
U.S. intelligence activity, by contrast, changes with each administration. The current administration has shifted focus toward hybrid models combining law enforcement and intelligence, especially targeting cartels and organized crime. Previous administrations took different paths. For example, the Obama administration emphasized counterterrorism and drone operations in Yemen and Southeast Asia while de-emphasizing traditional human intelligence and great-power espionage.
Jacobsen: Let’s move away from Ukraine for now. A good question to explore is: What are the strategic failures—or sheer absurdities—on both the American and Russian sides when it comes to prisoner or intelligence exchanges? Because frankly, neither country’s leadership impresses me with how they approach intelligence—either as a character trait or a matter of national security.
Tsukerman: So, how are these geopolitical juggernauts behaving in a typical fashion? Let’s unpack some of the more jaw-droppingly absurd, shortsighted, and strategically flawed decisions both Washington and Moscow have made when it comes to high-profile prisoner exchanges.
On the U.S. side, we are witnessing a greatest-hits compilation of strategic missteps. One of the most persistent problems is the habit of trading unevenly. The United States has a longstanding pattern of exchanging chess masters for pawns—giving up convicted arms dealers, spies, or war criminals in exchange for journalists, athletes, or civilian contractors. Are the trades morally defensible? Arguably. Are they strategically consistent? Not.
Take the Brittney Griner–Viktor Bout swap as a prime example. It was a public relations victory but a geopolitical farce. Griner is a beloved celebrity who committed a minor offence. Bout, dubbed the “Merchant of Death,” was a high-value arms trafficker. Yet somehow, Washington considered this a fair trade. The U.S. keeps playing poker like it’s Uno.
Another recurring issue is telegraphing desperation. Both sides of the political aisle have contributed to this. By allowing domestic outrage, social media campaigns, and celebrity lobbying to influence negotiation posture, the U.S. signals to authoritarian regimes that emotional blackmail is effective. That hands them a playbook: detain high-profile Americans—especially those who resonate with progressive activist circles—and watch the White House scramble.
There’s also a fundamental lack of retaliatory structure. The U.S. rarely imposes consequences on regimes engaging in hostage diplomacy. There are no symmetrical detention policies, few systematic diplomatic downgrades, and minimal financial sanctions targeting the individuals responsible. Without a credible stick, every carrot appears to be a weakness.
Then there’s the overreliance on quiet diplomacy. While discreet channels can work, Washington often sticks with them long after adversaries have gone public. The result? America looks slow, reactive, and outmaneuvered—while rogue states control the narrative.
But to be clear, the U.S. is not the only actor making strategically poor decisions.
Russia, for its part, has made its share of reckless choices. It has embraced hostage diplomacy with Cold War-era enthusiasm—arresting journalists on trumped-up espionage charges, detaining consultants on fabricated financial crimes—all in pursuit of leverage over Washington. However, Moscow’s delusion is that it believes this strategy is sustainable.
Over time, these tactics hardened the political resolve of even the most negotiation-friendly factions in the U.S., made neutral states wary of sending citizens to Russia, and further isolated Moscow diplomatically—when it desperately needed non-Western partnerships.
Another misstep is undermining its own claimed “rule of law.” Russia maintains the façade that these arrests and prosecutions follow legal procedure. But in reality, the verdicts are predetermined, and trials are staged. These charades destroy any remaining credibility in Russia’s legal system, especially in the eyes of the international community. While Russia increasingly disregards global opinion, this erosion of trust still matters—particularly in high-stakes international cases.
And then there’s the issue of releasing valuable intelligence assets too cheaply. In its zeal to score propaganda points and humiliate the U.S., Russia has occasionally traded high-value figures like Viktor Bout or embedded spies without securing substantial long-term gains. These are short-term PR wins that sacrifice strategic leverage.
Take the most recent example—Russia extracted significant concessions from the U.S., but not nearly as much as it could have. Moscow enjoys playing with hostages, but sometimes, it gives away strategic assets just to win a meme war. Russian embassies have actively participated in social media meme battles, including around sanctions and trade disputes, reducing serious geopolitical issues to internet theatre.
Another strategic misstep is Russia underestimating how much Global South countries are willing to absorb reputational risk. Using countries like the UAE or Turkey to launder their image through diplomatic channels only works if those states do not feel the international backlash. Russia has often pushed too hard, making itself a liability even among partners it considers reliable. This has already played out with both China and the UAE. When the U.S. began applying pressure on Beijing’s growing influence in the UAE, the Emiratis responded by dialling back certain forms of engagement.
Under the Trump administration, Washington is less concerned about Russia’s presence in the Gulf. This longer-term alignment gives the UAE little incentive to distance itself from Moscow. However, under a different administration, the calculus could shift dramatically.
Both the U.S. and Russia are guilty of turning prisoner exchanges into spectacles rather than strategic tools. For Russia, it is about humiliation and propaganda. For the U.S., it is about closure and virtue signalling. Neither is playing the long game effectively. If you keep trading aces for jokers, you should not be surprised when you run out of leverage.
Compare that to how China and Iran handle hostage diplomacy.
China plays a long, calculated game. It is the ultimate chess master at the international table. If the U.S. and Russia are reckless gamblers chasing short-term wins, China is the strategist—thinking multiple moves ahead. For Beijing, hostages represent geopolitical leverage, not emotional bargaining chips.
Iran, on the other hand, operates more like a shrewd gambler. Its hostage diplomacy is driven by ideological messaging, not purely strategic policy aims. Tehran uses hostages to maintain its narrative of victimhood and resistance while simultaneously applying pressure on Western governments. Hostages become symbols in a broader propaganda campaign, reinforcing the regime’s identity while destabilizing opponents.
Crucially, Iran is patient. It is willing to wait, leveraging time itself as a pressure tool. Iran and China use hostages not for immediate concessions but to extract long-term geopolitical benefits—military agreements, trade deals, or strategic realignments.
By contrast, the U.S. and Russia often engage in emotionally driven exchanges. They respond quickly to public pressure, media narratives, or political urgency—without a comprehensive plan for long-term consequences. The focus tends to be short-term: bring the individual home, win the news cycle, and move on.
China and Iran understand that drawn-out hostage scenarios can create more leverage. They ensure that any exchange is linked to broader strategic objectives, even if the optics are less favourable. In both cases, hostages are not simply political liabilities—they are integrated into a larger ideological and geopolitical framework.
Meanwhile, the U.S. and Russia continue to offer quick fixes—swapping civilians for arms dealers or humanitarian workers for convicted operatives—with little thought given to systemic impact. Public relations triumphs take precedence over durable strategic gain. For China and Iran, hostage diplomacy is part of a long game designed to shape global power dynamics. It remains a reactive, symbolic gesture for the U.S. and Russia—more theatre than strategy.
So, who is playing the long game? The U.S. and Russia’s preference for transactional diplomacy is increasingly outmatched by China’s and Iran’s strategic sophistication. The West must adapt to this shift—or risk becoming another piece on the global chessboard of influence. China and Iran are playing multidimensional, long-term strategy—call it 5D chess, 64D chess, whatever you like—while Washington and Moscow are stuck in tic-tac-toe.
The lesson is clear: when hostage diplomacy becomes a long-term game of influence, the side that takes its time, controls the narrative, and weaves the story into its broader geopolitical strategy will ultimately dominate. If the U.S. and Russia want to regain their footing, they must stop focusing solely on immediate optics—bringing someone home today—and begin thinking about tomorrow’s leverage.
Hostage diplomacy is unlikely to disappear soon, especially without substantial legal consequences or deterrents. It remains a viable tool if criminal liability is weak or unenforced. However, in the grand chess match of international relations, the U.S. and Russia must evolve their approach or risk being outmaneuvered by China and Iran.
There is no shortage of short-term thinking and tactical blunders in the current landscape.
Jacobsen: Are economic tools—like sanctions and energy dependencies—forms of counterintelligence activity? Can they be seen that way, or are they outside that scope?
Tsukerman: Economic tools such as sanctions are primarily foreign policy instruments. They are not, in themselves, counterintelligence activities. However, intelligence plays a vital role in shaping and informing those policies. Intelligence agencies provide the insights needed to design effective sanctions—targeted, disruptive, and strategic.
Economic warfare is designed to weaken or destabilize adversarial states. Intelligence supports that by identifying vulnerabilities, analyzing targets, and evaluating the likely outcomes of such actions. While economic warfare and intelligence are not the same, they are deeply complementary. You cannot wage effective economic warfare without solid, accurate intelligence.
That brings me to a nonsensical example: the U.S. tariffs under the Trump administration.
Who could have predicted that China, with its vast state apparatus, would respond with strategic precision? First, it matched U.S. tariffs with its own. Second, it filed complaints with the World Trade Organization, positioning itself as the defender of free trade. Third, it retaliated by targeting U.S. industries critical to Trump’s political base—agriculture, manufacturing, and key swing states.
This was not unpredictable. It was textbook statecraft. Any administration with functioning intelligence services or access to private firms specializing in Chinese economic policy should have seen it coming.
Instead, the Trump administration sidelined intelligence agencies, mainly due to distrust. The White House avoided relying on the 18 federal intelligence bodies to provide this foresight. It also ignored private sector analysts who could have flagged Beijing’s likely retaliatory strategies.
The result was a foreign policy defined by reaction rather than preparation, optics over outcomes.
What made the situation even more absurd was that the administration did not consult actual experts on China—or even on adversarial economic competitors more broadly—to understand the mood in key capitals or predict how officials might respond. Take Elon Musk, for example. While he frequently engages in business with China and likely had a good sense of Beijing’s likely countermeasures, Trump largely dismissed his input due to Musk’s opposition to protectionist trade policies.
So, we saw a textbook case of China applying strategic foresight—grounded in intelligence and analysis—while the U.S. responded impulsively and without necessity. China carefully studied American political and economic vulnerabilities and responded with precision. Meanwhile, the U.S. approached the situation by “shooting from the hip.”
Jacobsen: What else strikes you as particularly misguided in this scenario? I recently interviewed two authors who wrote an 850-page book on trade and tariffs. They noted two key points that are worth repeating.
First, there is historical precedent for the use of tariffs by the U.S. government, going back over a century. However, at that time, the U.S. economy was more akin to a developing nation seeking to protect emerging domestic industries.
Second, those tariffs were not broad or punitive—they were targeted and strategic, designed to support specific sectors and protect jobs. They were a form of economic policy, not a financial warfare weapon.
Contrast that with the approach under the Trump administration: flat tariffs, across-the-board, often implemented as retaliatory or coercive measures. These were not designed to protect specific American industries but to exert pressure, including on longstanding allies like Canada—the U.S.’s most reliable partner for over 80 years, with whom it shares the world’s longest undefended border.
That shift—from strategic economic policy to indiscriminate economic warfare—was profoundly misguided.
So, the Trump administration essentially declared economic war on the world?
While it did not encompass the whole world, it did encompass a large portion. Depending on how you measure it—by UN member states or global trade partners—we’re discussing tariffs affecting 180 to 190 countries. That includes key allies and economic partners. The remaining states had limited trade relevance to the U.S.—places like the Marshall Islands or Vanuatu—and, ironically, some geopolitical adversaries like Russia, Cuba, and Venezuela.
It resembled a lopsided version of the 2012 UN General Assembly vote on Palestine’s non-member observer status. In that case, only nine countries sided with the U.S. and Israel—some of the usual suspects and a few strategically dependent microstates. The same pattern emerged in Trump’s trade war: broad alienation, minimal alignment, and poorly calculated pressure campaigns.
Tsukerman: The more significant issue here is not just bad policy but the abandonment of intelligence-informed strategy. Instead of using the deep analytical capacity of 18 federal intelligence agencies—or engaging with private firms that specialize in adversarial economic modelling—the administration acted on instinct and optics. That is not just bad economics; it is strategically self-sabotaging. Then you have countries like the Marshall Islands, Nauru—always a favourite—and Tunisia.
Jacobsen: I’ve done many model UN annotations over the years. I do not recall anyone representing the Marshall Islands, Vanuatu, or Nauru. They are often diplomatically invisible in these contexts.
It’s funny—when I went to the Commission on the Status of Women (CSW) for the first time as a freelancer, a family member asked, “Oh, are you going to another MUN thing?” as if it were just another routine, minor event. I had to say, “No, no, this one’s real—a real one this time.”
So, coming back to policy—when the U.S. frames its economic measures as part of a trade war with Canada, arguably its single most important financial and military ally, then by extension, it implies that every other nation—none of which share that depth of alliance—is effectively being treated as an adversary. That’s a reasonable conclusion.
So does that make all of them, in effect, targets in an undeclared economic warfare zone?
Tsukerman: That’s one interpretation—and not an unreasonable one. The problem is that even within the Trump administration, the justification for these measures kept shifting. It was never clear what the fundamental objective was. One day, it was about protecting American manufacturing; another day, it was about correcting trade deficits; and another, national security. The messaging was inconsistent.
Take Canada, for example. At one point, the U.S. wanted to pressure Ottawa to buy more American products. That could have been negotiated diplomatically. But if the true aim was something unrelated to trade—something more geopolitical—then it was never publicly defined.
Even Prime Minister Trudeau’s reciprocal tariffs were eventually removed after discussions with Mark Carney, but there has been no formal, consistent response from the White House. Negotiations Negotiations may be happening, but the goals and framework remain unclear.
This inconsistency extends beyond Canada. Look at South Korea and Japan. The administration claimed both could receive partial tariff relief if they purchased more U.S. liquefied natural gas (LNG). But those countries were already planning to do so—they are energy-import dependent, and the U.S. is now a top producer. Then, suddenly, the administration suspended the entire tariff policy for 90 days without explaining whether those conditions still applied.
Then there is the European Union. The administration demanded $350 billion in energy purchases as a form of “reparation” for past trade imbalances—essentially turning diplomatic negotiations into transactional ultimatums.
This reflects a broader issue: the U.S. forfeits leverage without strategic clarity or continuity. Allies do not know where they stand, adversaries sense confusion, and long-term planning becomes impossible. There’s no cohesive doctrine—just a pattern of improvisation dressed up as strength.
I did not even realize the U.S. had longstanding grievances with Japan and the EU over automotive trade—at least not ones grounded in current economic reality. The claim is that American products, particularly cars, are being excluded from foreign markets, but that does not tell the whole story. Japanese and European consumers tend not to buy American cars because they are not suited to their needs. European cities, for example, often have narrow streets and compact urban layouts—people there prefer smaller, fuel-efficient vehicles. U.S. cars, by contrast, are built for space and highway driving.
The reverse is also true. Americans are not lining up to buy French Peugeots. And while some of that might be cultural—sure, there is a segment of the American public that still harbours anti-French sentiment—the reality is that many of those vehicles just do not fit American preferences for size, utility, or design. It is not about tariffs or trade barriers. It is about different markets, geographies, and consumer behaviours.
The U.S. once had a thriving, self-contained automotive industry, but those days are long gone. We are now in a global supply chain era. Components are sourced from different countries, assembled in others, and sold globally. The idea that countries must reciprocally buy the same products to satisfy “fair trade” is outdated. Instead, the focus should be on participation in diversified trade networks that reflect economic reality.
It is absurd to argue that a small Eastern European country—with narrow, cobblestone streets—should buy oversized U.S. trucks.
Jacobsen: Imagine sending a Hummer through the streets of Moldova without suspension. I remember when I flew into Chișinău, Moldova, right after surgery. From the airport, I took a bus to Odessa with a Romanian friend of mine, Remus, who is now a journalist and was a politician at the time. That trip was three or four hours—and once we left the capital, we were off-roading almost immediately. I have a video on my phone. It looked like we were navigating dirt trails in rural North America—but in an old, rickety bus. You are exhausted, jet-lagged, and just trying to sleep while tossed around. That’s not the terrain for American sedans or SUVs.
So, when American officials talk about reciprocity in the automotive trade, they often miss the fundamental mismatch between economic, geographic, and infrastructural markets.
This also reflects a broader misunderstanding about global purchasing power. For example, Moldova’s per capita purchasing power parity (PPP) is about twice that of Ghana, which is considered one of Africa’s wealthier nations. That gap underscores the economic diversity not just between continents but within Europe itself.
So, expecting exact, one-to-one reciprocity in trade—especially in consumer goods—makes no sense in this context. What the U.S. should be doing is adapting its expectations to the economic realities, infrastructure, and needs of its partners rather than framing the non-purchase of American goods as adversarial behaviour.
Failing to teach Americans basic geography, cultural awareness, and global economic literacy has long-term consequences. When you remove education about how the world works, it undermines your economic competitiveness. As you mentioned earlier, there is an increasingly blurry line between economics and intelligence. Understanding another country’s financial landscape is not just good diplomacy—it is critical for domestic economic planning.
Tsukerman: This brings us to the role of information warfare, which is deeply embedded in these dynamics. Russia, unsurprisingly, remains the top beneficiary of U.S. strategic confusion. For example, the Russian embassy in Kenya recently released a meme that perfectly encapsulates its messaging strategy. It showed a Black man lying down and smoking, draped in a Russian flag, looking above a chaotic scene below—where individuals wearing U.S., EU, and Chinese flags were fighting over tariffs. The message was clear: “Let the others scramble while Russia remains above the fray.”
However, this kind of information warfare is not only aimed outward. Increasingly, it is being turned inward—against the American public. Economic warfare is part of that strategy.
The biggest losers in this indiscriminate economic warfare are not Botswana, Lesotho, or other peripheral trade partners—they are American businesses and consumers. Countries like China, Japan, and Germany are major trade players. However, the economic disruptions caused by poorly conceived tariffs do not hurt foreign governments as much as small and medium-sized U.S. enterprises and working-class households.
Before the Trump administration, most Americans were not particularly concerned about trade deficits. The average person focuses on quality of life, inflation, job stability, and the economy’s overall health. If those things were trending upward—if their families were secure and their futures looked promising—there was no political pressure over trade policy. People cared about whether their lives improved, not abstract economic imbalances with other nations.
Then came Trump’s rhetoric: telling Americans they were being “ripped off,” that other countries were “taking advantage” of them, and that trade deficits were an existential threat. This was pure information warfare—a form of domestic propaganda. It manufactured outrage where none previously existed and created a false sense of economic grievance.
This brand of economic nationalism introduced an artificial crisis. It redefined trade as a zero-sum game and convinced people that benefits enjoyed by others were losses for Americans. But this was not true—and it never had to be. It was not a problem until it was turned into one.
Meanwhile, real economic issues—wage stagnation, healthcare costs, climate-linked infrastructure stress, and wealth inequality—were sidelined to fight imaginary battles. The result is real damage: disrupted global supply chains, alienated allies, and a misinformed public.
The question is: Why would any administration introduce a problem that did not exist—and turn it into a political focal point? That is not governance. That is manipulation. And the consequences will take years to undo, regardless of who holds office next.
Unless you’re deliberately focusing public attention on something that was never a priority, that is information warfare—strategically using messaging to manipulate public perception and guide people in a specific direction. In this case, it was toward antagonism: against foreign countries, allies, neighbours, and even fellow citizens.
People who had never seen a problem before were suddenly consumed by it—fixated on trade imbalances, “unfair” global competition, and supposed foreign exploitation. Meanwhile, they were no longer paying attention to the real issues being generated domestically: the rollback of anti-corruption laws, the weakening of the intelligence apparatus, and the mass firing of government scientists—including cancer researchers—which threatens long-term U.S. dominance in scientific innovation.
If this is not information warfare, then nothing is. This is a textbook case of public manipulation—redirecting attention away from consequential, structural problems toward manufactured crises.
Jacobsen: So, if governments and political bodies are to be adequately educated on propaganda systems and information warfare, how effective can counterintelligence be in these situations?
Tsukerman: That’s a critical question. Yes, you can educate agencies and political institutions on how propaganda works. And yes, that can inform more effective counterintelligence strategies. But one of the major problems is that the psyops—psychological operations—are not being waged by foreign actors alone. Increasingly, they’re being waged by the government itself against its population.
Many Americans do not recognize it because they do not understand what information operations look like at scale. They do not realize they are being primed and conditioned. Often, they are even told precisely what is happening—but they do not interpret the language correctly.
For example, early in his presidency, Trump stated clearly that he values volatility. He did not say disruption—he said volatility. That distinction matters. Disruption might lead to reform or reorganization. Volatility, on the other hand, is chaos. It signals intentional unpredictability.
That was not an accident. He was broadcasting his governing philosophy, but people dismissed it or conflated it with generic political turbulence. In reality, Trump announced that he would be an agent of chaos. And that is precisely the role he has played.
There is no consistent tariff policy, not because he cannot formulate one, but because consistency would allow others—domestically and internationally—to prepare, respond, and push back. Volatility denies that. If you cannot predict what comes next, you cannot develop an effective counterstrategy.
This strategy serves multiple purposes: it generates short-term economic opportunities for a select few, keeps foreign leaders off balance, and emotionally and cognitively destabilizes the domestic public. It turns governance into a political and economic rollercoaster and, in doing so, stifles coordinated opposition.
Jacobsen: During his first term, people closely monitored Trump’s Twitter feed because it often dictated real-time policy. That alone should tell us everything about the volatility model he was deliberately advancing. It was never meant to be rational, and that’s the point—it was meant to be unpredictable.
During Trump’s second term, I have not noticed people reacting with the same anxiety about his social media presence. Instead, I see a population in chronic, low-level crisis mode during the first 80 to 90 days—what my friend calls being hit by “the firehose.”
Tsukerman: From a psychological operations perspective, if you want to condition people and shape a certain mindset over time, you start by overwhelming them with constant, chaotic commentary—most of which leads to nothing substantive. The purpose is to inoculate the public. People become desensitized. They say, “Yes, he talks trash, but things seem stable. Some things are even going okay.” They learn not to take what he says seriously.
That’s when the real manipulation can begin. When people stop reacting to the noise, they stop paying attention. Then, you hit them with messy, erratic policy shifts. And because they have tuned out the rhetoric, they also miss the structural changes being enacted under the surface.
Now, there is some genuine incompetence at play here. For instance, the signal leaks during his presidency were more about mismanagement than any grand design. But how those incidents were handled—how the administration reacted—was often deliberate. So, while some moments reflect normal government dysfunction, the broader strategy of constant disruption is intentional.
The goal is to flood the public sphere with too many crises simultaneously. The effect is cognitive overload: people cannot focus long enough on any single issue to organize or respond effectively. It prevents them from forming durable opposition or building a counterstrategy.
This is also why we are seeing fewer protests and rallies—not necessarily because people are less outraged, but because they are too mentally and emotionally fragmented to keep up with the pace of disruption.
Jacobsen: This is a good pivot point: Discuss cyber espionage. Do China and Russia conduct cyber operations against each other? We often focus on their collaboration, but they also have unresolved territorial disputes. The Soviets took Chinese land, and the Chinese have not forgotten that. Let’s explore how that history plays out in the digital sphere.
What about purported allies? Many of these regimes present public unity—gestures of alliance, shared press conferences, joint statements. We’ve heard a lot about growing ties between countries like China and Russia, Iran and Russia, and North Korea. But do these states conduct counterintelligence operations against one another behind the scenes?
Tsukerman: Absolutely. Counterintelligence efforts are not just reserved for traditional adversaries, particularly among authoritarian regimes. Even among so-called allies, espionage and surveillance remain very much in play. These relationships are often transactional and strategic, not built on deep trust.
Some rivalries are evident in the global cyber-espionage landscape—like the one between the U.S. and China. That is a reasonably straightforward contest, almost cartoonish in its predictability. They constantly engage in high-stakes surveillance and counter-surveillance, with economic and national security secrets at the core.
However, the cyber relationship between Russia and China is more complex. Think of it less like a Cold War chess match and more like a cyberpunk thriller—equal parts cooperation and subversion. They are frequently described as allies, but in reality, I would categorize them more as frenemies: aligned in public posture, especially against the West, but constantly maneuvering against each other in private.
Despite shared interests in undermining Western influence, they are fierce competitors behind the curtain. Their battles are not just about data or secrets but about control over global infrastructure and long-term digital dominance. This is a cyber Cold War within the broader geopolitical Cold War. Data is the new oil in this arena, and espionage no longer requires trench coats and shadowy meetings in alleys. It comes in untraceable malware, surveillance software, and digital incursions that leave no fingerprints.
It might surprise some, but the rivalry between the Russian bear and the Chinese dragon is real and deeply rooted in history.
Let’s go back for a moment. Russia and China have had a complicated relationship for centuries, defined by fluctuating territorial disputes—particularly around Siberia—ideological divergences, and even outright border conflicts. The most well-known episode is the Sino-Soviet split of the 1960s, one of the most fascinating chapters of the original Cold War. These two former allies—initially bonded by communism—eventually turned on each other over ideological differences.
Mao Zedong’s radical Marxism—what would evolve into Maoism—clashed with Nikita Khrushchev’s more reformist, de-Stalinized Soviet model. Khrushchev had attempted to dismantle Stalin’s cult of personality and initiated political rehabilitation for thousands of prisoners. Mao viewed this as an ideological betrayal.
Fast-forward to today, and we find a new ideological confrontation between the two: cyber dominance. While China and Russia have, at times, distanced themselves from each other—China focusing on economic development, Russia pursuing geopolitical muscle-flexing—they’ve both risen to the top of the cyber-espionage food chain.
Yet, their methods and motivations remain distinct.
While they occasionally cooperate on cyber operations against the West, they also spy on each other. Both hack indiscriminately when they see an advantage—but their endgames differ.
For Russia, cyberspace is an extension of geopolitical warfare. Information dominance is a way to influence elections, destabilize societies, and assert Russia’s presence on the global stage, even as its conventional power wanes.
Russia’s cyber espionage strategy is rooted in a legacy of KGB-style secrecy, subversion, and aggression. Since the Cold War, Moscow has treated intelligence as an indispensable tool for maintaining its geopolitical position. The digital revolution has not changed that; it has only expanded the toolkit. Unlike the United States, Russia has embraced the cyber domain as a core component of its information warfare strategy, which remains more cautious and reactive.
Moscow’s primary objective is not to build economic advantage—it is to undermine Western institutions, disrupt democratic processes, and destabilize societies. Its tactics are far-reaching, highly covert, and deliberately provocative, often executed through hacking campaigns, disinformation, and cyberattacks on critical infrastructure.
Groups like Fancy Bear and Cozy Bear—both Russian state-linked actors—symbolize this approach. Russia’s use of the “bear” motif is no coincidence; it is a projection of national identity and power. These groups operate like phantoms, skilled at avoiding detection and attribution, relying on a well-developed tradition of strategic denial and plausible deniability.
Russia has transferred its human intelligence model into cyberspace. Its cyber operations focus on acquiring political, military, and economic intelligence that can tip the strategic balance. However, unlike China, Russia’s cyber strategy is not primarily about economic growth or industrial advantage. It is about geopolitical leverage.
The aim is to weaken adversaries rather than elevate Russia. This mindset is deeply rooted in Soviet-era doctrine and arguably pre-Soviet imperial strategy. Russia’s approach is not focused on “winning” in absolute terms. It is more about ensuring that others lose. Destabilization is the goal. Cyber tools influence narratives, manipulate public opinion, and sow discord. These are not economic attacks but political and psychological operations.
This emphasis on relative power, rather than economic supremacy, reflects the nature of Russian governance itself: control through disruption, influence through fear, and power through perceived strength—even when materially weak.
China, by contrast, operates under an entirely different set of imperatives.
The Chinese Communist Party views cyber operations as a tool to accelerate its economic ascendancy. China seeks dominance, not through ideological warfare or sabotage but through systematic industrial espionage, financial integration, and long-term strategic planning.
Beijing does not want an equal global playing field. It wants to lead it—primarily through economic dominance, though military capacity is developing in parallel. China’s cyber operations reflect this. Groups such as APT10 and APT1 are known for conducting long-term, highly targeted campaigns to steal intellectual property, technological designs, and sensitive corporate data.
These campaigns span industries: aerospace, artificial intelligence, pharmaceuticals, telecommunications, and defence. The objective is not to cause chaos, as Russia might, but to steal the crown jewels of technological innovation, allowing China to leapfrog over its competitors.
Where Russia’s cyberattacks are often loud and destabilizing, China’s are quiet, strategic, and cumulative. Over time, this approach not only boosts China’s domestic industries but also erodes the competitive edge of its global rivals, particularly the United States and Europe.
China has allocated vast resources to stealing foreign technologies and developing its capabilities. It is all tightly integrated. China’s cyber espionage strategy operates like a large-scale, state-sanctioned campaign of “pillage and plunder”—stealing cutting-edge research and intellectual property to accelerate its domestic innovation. The goal is to leapfrog over traditional R&D challenges by acquiring the best global ideas—whether from Silicon Valley, European labs, or elsewhere—and adapting them for use.
We have seen this repeatedly, including in areas like 5G networks, smartphone technology, and various so-called “breakthroughs” that were at least partially derived from appropriated foreign IP.
Russia and China use cyber tools for surveillance and espionage, but China’s focus on economic espionage enables it to play the long game. While Russia often seeks short-term disruption, China’s cyber operations are systemic and strategic. For Russia, information warfare is a pressure valve—a way to destabilize and dominate its adversaries quickly. It is impatient and focused on immediate impact. In contrast, China treats cyber espionage as a core element of its national economic strategy. For Beijing, hacking is simply business as usual.
So why the rivalry, given their shared interest in undermining the West?
The answer lies in their fundamentally different long-term visions. Russia sees cyberspace as a tool to retain global influence and punch above its economic weight through strategic destabilization. Conversely, China uses cyberspace to build economic dominance, expand digital infrastructure, and maintain internal political control. These divergent geopolitical versus economic goals inevitably lead to conflict in the cyber domain.
Even though both nations’ postures as allies against the West, historic mistrust, and unresolved territorial tensions continue to simmer beneath the surface, the rivalry has intensified as both countries have become more capable of using the digital sphere. Each seeks to dominate emerging technologies—from AI to cyberweapons to data sovereignty.
Neither side is willing to cede ground or share control over the digital future.
The tension is further compounded by China’s efforts to steal Russian-developed technologies, especially in sensitive areas where China has failed to make independent breakthroughs. In this way, China treats Russia no differently than the U.S. or Europe—a source of value to exploit. Russia has become increasingly protective of its military technologies, cyber capabilities, and scientific assets. Active counterintelligence work is being conducted within Russia to prevent Chinese social engineering, hacking, and infiltration attempts.
That said, none of this rivalry plays out openly.
Moscow and Beijing understand the strategic value of presenting a unified front against the West. Their internal disputes are handled quietly, in the shadows. To the untrained observer, the partnership appears seamless. However, intelligence services worldwide are well aware of this underlying tension. It is recognized in security and diplomatic circles, though it has not become a focus of Western foreign policy.
And that is a missed opportunity. The West has not fully allocated the resources to monitor, expose, or strategically exploit this rivalry. It has not invested in amplifying Russia’s and China’s paranoia or used it as a tool of information warfare to disrupt their collaboration. The ability to do so exists—it has not been prioritized.
Jacobsen: So, what does the future of intelligence and counterintelligence look like when quantum systems or advanced algorithms can potentially crack any encryption or intercept any system?
Tsukerman: That’s an entire conversation—but a vital one. Fundamentally, there’s no such thing as a permanently unhackable or perfectly defended system. Cybersecurity is an ongoing arms race—a constant back-and-forth between innovation and intrusion. Human and AI design ingenuity will continue to push forward while adversaries respond with increasingly sophisticated breach methods.
Quantum computing could significantly shift the playing field, but we are not there yet. Until quantum-secure methods are fully mainstream, we are still in a reactive cycle: creating new protections, watching hackers break through them, and deploying penetration testers to simulate the next exploit.
This pattern will persist until we completely overhaul how cybersecurity is conceptualized and implemented. But even then, the human factor remains the perpetual vulnerability. As long as people are involved in systems—designing, maintaining, or accessing them—there will always be room for error, manipulation, and social engineering.
Deepfakes, voice cloning, and AI-enhanced phishing schemes have made social engineering more challenging to detect. While countermeasures are evolving, they are not perfect. Even the most secure companies and agencies with strong counterintelligence can miss creative new threats from obscure groups operating outside of visibility.
Jacobsen: Are private cyber militias or independent cyber groups now a serious concern on the global stage? Or are they still relatively marginal?
Tsukerman: They are growing, especially as official state policies run into logistical and political limitations. Governments are beginning to outsource offensive cyber operations to private groups, and defensive needs are outpacing institutional capacity. Civilian infrastructure, smaller businesses, and entire economic sectors are vulnerable and often not prioritized by national defence frameworks.
Organizing defensive militias or cyber volunteer brigades could help protect vulnerable systems—banks, utilities, healthcare networks, and more. But this is a double-edged sword.
These groups are only as effective as their training, coordination, ethics, and oversight. Without rigorous accountability, private cyber entities can become destabilizing forces. They might act independently of national interest, pursue private agendas, get caught in internal rivalries and ideological splits, or even become infiltrated themselves.
In worst-case scenarios, rogue cyber militias could provoke international incidents, escalate conflicts with foreign states, or clash with their governments. Such groups will inevitably continue to emerge as cybersecurity becomes more decentralized—but without strong governance frameworks, this trend could backfire catastrophically.
Jacobsen: What about semi-autonomous, high-tech enclaves—regions or cities with advanced cybersecurity infrastructure that function independently, like a digital-age Silicon Valley with sovereignty?
Tsukerman: That is a dangerous possibility. You’re referring to things like seasteading, I assume.
Jacobsen: The idea came from the Seasteading Institute, founded in 2008 by Patri Friedman—Milton Friedman’s grandson—and partially funded by Peter Thiel. The goal was to create floating cities outside national jurisdictions.
Tsukerman: I know it well. Frankly, it sounds like the dark web turned physical. It would not be about freedom if someone like Peter Thiel were truly in charge of such a venture. It would be about power.
Jacobsen: These would be libertarian island fiefdoms.
Tsukerman: They would be governed not by democratic consensus but by philosopher-kings with extreme ideologies, authoritarian leanings, and no real checks on their rule. These projects are often utopian escapes from bureaucracy and inefficiency, but they are power consolidation experiments.
It is not about anarchism or freedom. It is about replacing state institutions with corporate dominance, creating unaccountable parallel systems often hostile to democratic norms.
Jacobsen: It reminds me of the Matrix side stories. In one, the AIs built City 01—a manufacturing hub that outcompeted human cities. Negotiations broke down when they approached the UN, and things got ugly.
Tsukerman: It’s not too far-fetched when you consider the real-world implications of seasteading or private cyber-states. Without accountability and shared ethical frameworks, these projects can easily evolve into unregulated authoritarian zones, destabilizing the global order economically, politically, and technologically.
Jacobsen: After the human-machine war—from the machine’s point of view—it was the humans oppressing the early humanoid robots before they evolved into multi-tech, tentacle-limbed floaters shooting lasers. Are there aspects of counterintelligence today that seem like science fiction?
Tsukerman: Absolutely. Some facets of intelligence and counterintelligence strategy already mirror science fiction in tone and scope. Take predictive analysis and technological countermeasures, for instance. These efforts involve identifying adversarial tech trends and preemptively developing tools to neutralize them—sometimes even before they emerge fully into the public or military domain.
Programs like IARPA—the civilian intelligence equivalent of DARPA—exist precisely for this reason. IARPA is tasked with pioneering futuristic intelligence collection, analysis, and defence technologies, including in counterintelligence contexts. Some initiatives involve quantum sensors, next-gen encryption, autonomous surveillance systems, and other projects that read like speculative fiction.
But while parts of this world feel visionary, critical policy failures keep the U.S. from genuinely succeeding in this realm.
Take, for example, the case of Havana Syndrome. The GRU, a Russian intelligence agency, is widely believed to have deployed a highly innovative sonic or directed-energy weapon capable of neurological disruption. It has reportedly caused long-term cognitive and physical damage to dozens of U.S. personnel—intelligence officers, diplomats, and government officials. At least one CIA officer is known to have died, and several others have suffered permanent harm.
Despite lawsuits, media investigations, and successful settlements with victims, multiple U.S. administrations have refused to acknowledge that this is an act of hostile aggression publicly. The explanations offered have ranged from psychosomatic to environmental factors. However, that dismissal contradicts internal assessments and the intelligence community’s findings.
This kind of willful blindness stems from the reluctance to escalate. Admitting that Russia has deployed a covert weapon on American personnel would require either a covert response or public confrontation, which could dangerously heighten tensions. So, instead, the response has been denial.
The weapon is not entirely new in theory—it is an enhanced form of earlier technology—but it is highly effective and strategically deployed. It is lightweight, operable at short and possibly growing long-range distances, and deliberately designed to leave few traces.
So yes, counterintelligence today involves science-fiction-like tools, but too often, it’s contained by institutional inertia and fear of geopolitical consequences.
Jacobsen: We have not yet touched on North Korea, another unique case. Let me compare it with the other players first.
With Iran, you have a semi-rational theocracy rooted in a long-term ideological framework—the Velayat-e Faqih system. They pursue regional dominance and survival through relatively predictable, fanatical means. China, meanwhile, operates with pragmatic authoritarianism infused with cultural continuity—a blend of ancient traditions, ancestor reverence, and Party discipline.
For all its drama, Russia often operates like a seasoned gambler—a bit of a drunk uncle archetype with a few reliable cards: oil, intimidation, and counterintelligence. But its methods are familiar.
But North Korea is something else entirely. It functions as if Scientology metastasized into a national government centralized around a single ethnic group. It is a necrocracy—rule by the dead, as Christopher Hitchens sharply observed. The Kim dynasty is worshipped as semi-divine, and the regime operates more like a totalitarian cult than a standard authoritarian government.
Tsukerman: This makes North Korea extremely unpredictable. It is deeply isolationist, self-mythologizing, and oriented around dynastic survival above all else. It pursues nuclear weapons not merely as geopolitical leverage but as sacred symbols of national immortality. Its cyber operations—like Lazarus Group—are less about espionage and more about financial survival and deterrence, with occasional ideological flare.
In short, North Korea is not playing the same game as China, Russia, or Iran. It is a sealed system, ideologically self-reinforcing, and capable of irrational escalations that defy conventional analysis.
Jacobsen: I suppose North Korea has a trinity of a necrocracy—the two deceased leaders and the son as the living symbol. Under that regime, based on those now-famous satellite images of the Korean peninsula at night, it’s essentially a black zone, save for a small illuminated capital—Pyongyang. So how does counterintelligence work for them, especially since North Korea seems like a modest partner within the Russia-Iran-China axis maneuvering for global influence?
Tsukerman: Regarding intelligence—not economics or conventional diplomacy—North Korea is not a junior partner. In fact, in some ways, it operates as a peer.
North Korean intelligence is highly competent, sometimes even mistaken for Chinese intelligence because of stylistic and operational similarities. Their cyber capabilities have grown tremendously, especially in cryptocurrency theft—now one of their primary funding mechanisms. These crypto heists help sustain both the regime’s security apparatus and its covert international operations. Due to North Korea’s Korean pariah status and inability to engage through normal financial channels, they also serve as a means of financial exchange with non-state actors, including terrorist groups.
They have become proficient at social engineering, successfully infiltrating Western tech companies by having operatives apply for jobs under false identities. Many of these companies failed to conduct proper due diligence, especially in remote work contexts where face-to-face verification was absent. As a result, North Korean hackers were hired into fundamental corporate roles—essentially embedding the regime’s warfare agents inside foreign technology firms.
Jacobsen: And what about the counterintelligence efforts from China, Russia, or Iran—do they direct those against North Korea?
Tsukerman: In general, that is not a top priority. The dynamic is more nuanced.
China, for instance, is hyper-paranoid about North Korea spiralling out of control. It closely monitors and tries to manage Pyongyang, but not necessarily through aggressive counterintelligence. It is more about containment and control.
Russia, at the moment, is more interested in using North Korean soldiers as expendable assets in Ukraine. Reports suggest Moscow is deploying them for combat, and predictably, many of them are being killed off. Russia may view this as a kind of pressure release valve—it gets North Korean support, and in return, it reduces any perceived threat by simply grinding down the workforce.
Iran, by contrast, sees North Korea as highly useful. Tehran has long benefited from the DPRK’s expertise and missile technologies, and there are credible reports of cooperation in those areas. Iran is far less suspicious of Pyongyang than Russia or China. It sees North Korea as a quiet enabler of its ambitions.
What does North Korea gain from these partnerships? Several things:
- Legitimacy—Normalized relations with countries like Nicaragua and increasingly with others create the appearance of a functioning, sovereign player rather than a rogue outcast.
- Resources—Financial assistance, food, energy, and tech components—often in exchange for military supplies, arms, or services.
- Diplomatic openings—Some European countries are even quietly reopening or reengaging with North Korea through diplomatic missions.
So yes, North Korea is still authoritarian and closed, but it is less isolated than it was in the 1990s. That shift has been fueled by:
- Weak sanctions enforcement
- Normalization of nuclear weapons status
- Growing strategic ties with Russia, China, and Iran
- Exploiting Russia during the Ukraine War
Of course, there is some distrust within this bloc. No one fully trusts Kim Jong Un. He is viewed as erratic, unpredictable, and highly self-interested—but I would stop short of calling him “crazy.” His ac” ions are often coldly calculated, even if eccentric in presentation. Because of that unpredictability, all his partners maintain some distance and redundancy in their dealings with him.
Kim is calculating, cunning, and duplicitous in some ways. That combination—psychological unpredictability paired with a reasonably strategic mind—makes him dangerous.
Jacobsen: Do you see any parallels between Trump’s Trump’s behaviour and his?
Tsukerman: It is a strange comparison, but yes, in a limited sense. Both exhibit a volatile mix of impulsiveness and calculation, which makes their diplomacy highly personalized and unpredictable. However, Kim is sharper than he’s often given credit for. He plays a long game for survival, and while his behaviour may seem erratic, it is often tactically sound within the narrow scope of regime preservation.
The dynamic between Trump and Kim was surreal. Trump tried to lure Kim with offers that included developing North Korean beaches—yes, beachfront real estate—if Kim agreed to denuclearize. Kim, predictably, did not go for it.
Jacobsen: So basically, a “Pyongyang Mar-a-Lago”?
Tsukerman: Right, and I’m not joking. Trump tried the same pitch in Gaza later, essentially repurposing the beach-development-for-peace model.
Jacobsen: Think of it as going from one geopolitical potato to another potato: “Let’s Mar-a-Lago.”
Tsukerman: You can almost picture a golf course in the middle of a blacked-out country. There is no electricity anywhere but fairways and sand traps ready for symbolic diplomacy. Of course, that proposal went nowhere, but do not rule out Trump reviving the idea. If he achieves—or fails—whatever he aims for with Iran, he may return to North Korea for another “historic” breakthrough.”
Kim would gladly take a meeting. He sees value in photo ops, potential sanctions relief, and international legitimacy. He will play hardball to get it, but he also knows how to flatter Trump and feed his ego in exchange for concessions that cost him nothing.
Kim closely monitors developments with Russia, the U.S.-China trade conflict, and Iran talks. He assesses how his partners fare in negotiations with the Trump administration and recalibrates his strategy accordingly.
What is particularly concerning is the absence of North Korean experts in the current U.S. administration. There is no John Bolton figure—someone who, for all his flaws, at least understood North Korea’s Korean mechanics. That expertise vacuum leaves the U.S. unprepared for the subtleties of DPRK engagement, particularly if Kim makes another aggressive diplomatic push.
Jacobsen: Let us bookmark two topics for later: one on torture and one more counterintelligence-focused—specifically, a country that punches way above its weight per capita. So, as far as I know—as an academic question and an empirical fact—by and large, torture does not work, or at least, it does not work for the intended purposes of intelligence gathering. Because people are being tortured, they are often motivated to lie or to accept lies told about them just to stop the pain.
So, with that in mind—and considering the ongoing ignorance of many actors within global counterintelligence apparatuses—how much is torture still used? But the point is that torture is still in use. How pervasively is it used? And in light of the evidence, why is it still used if it is?
Tsukerman: In terms of the U.S., there is a distinction between what is termed “enhanced interrogation techniques” and outright torture. Enhanced interrogation includes physical and psychological methods of pressure that stop short of what is traditionally considered torture. These methods can involve sleep deprivation, stress positions, and, controversially, waterboarding. Some classify waterboarding as torture, while others consider it an enhanced interrogation method that has occasionally yielded viable results.
The case of Khalid Sheikh Mohammed—infamously or famously, depending on your perspective—is often cited as one such instance.
More traditional torture, like severe beatings or having fingernails pulled out, is a different category entirely. That kind of extreme physical abuse tends to cloud judgment. If the subject is sufficiently trained, prepared mentally or physically, drugged, or otherwise conditioned, torture will not necessarily be effective.
It is also not typically useful for eliciting complex or narrative information. Suppose you want someone to tell a coherent story or to become a serious cooperative asset, that usually requires a relationship built on something more stable than raw fear. When someone is that reluctant and resistant, extreme force is more likely to shut them down than open them up.
The U.S. understands this, which is why it has developed highly sophisticated psychological techniques to gather intelligence—methods designed to bypass lying, manipulation, and even mind control. I am referring here to indoctrinated or brainwashed individuals who are used as “dangles” in counterintelligence scenarios.
These advanced techniques are now also being applied in private-sector contexts for various purposes—not only in counterintelligence but also in due diligence efforts in workplaces and corporate environments.
As for why torture is still used, often, it is not about obtaining accurate information. Its use remains fairly widespread globally. In more developed countries, they may refer to different levels of interrogation: first-degree being non-coercive questioning, second-degree aligning with the U.S.’s enhanced interrogation, and third-degree encompassing methods that would likely be classified as torture in the United States.
Even then, these may not be as brutal as those used by fully authoritarian regimes, but they still cross ethical lines. For example, they may involve slapping or hitting a person—not necessarily pulling out nails, but using enough physical coercion to break someone’s will without pushing them into complete shutdown.
Sometimes, these mild coercive methods are used not against hardened spies or terrorists but against regular criminals or individuals involved in various disputes. The goal is to break their resistance and compel cooperation—even if it is unreliable.
That may work. It may work on a regular person—that sort of mild coercion, low-level torture, the so-called third degree.
However, of course, there are reasons why various regimes use far more extensive torture than that. The mild approach probably would not work in those cases. And sometimes, it is not because they are looking for accurate information. They are just looking to confirm what their regimes have already put out. There are a lot of authoritarian and semi-authoritarian regimes around the world, and they use those techniques extensively.
Not all of them are equally brutal. Some are very concerned about not using anything that will induce severe or permanent injuries. So, will they probably beat someone up? Yes. Are they going to use extremely forceful techniques? Only some more extreme or Western regimes might go that far—but not the semi-authoritarian ones. They would probably use some mixture of strong, enhanced interrogations—some leaking and some non-permanent but painful techniques to elicit information.
Sometimes, it is to confirm the official narrative. They are not necessarily looking to gain new insights into anything; they want to force the person to acquiesce to something.
Other times, it is about revenge. It is less about information and more about punishing whoever is in custody. If you are dealing with a known terrorist, there is often a strong internal drive not to treat them well—because they are seen as a known bad actor or a known threat to the regime or government. So, in those cases, torture is not about gaining information. It is about humiliating and breaking down the suspect—or just giving them a taste of their own medicine.
Another point is that sometimes, when you take someone, prisoner, it is not meant to elicit immediate information. It is meant to break them down over time to the point where they are easily manipulated and will say or do whatever they are told. And, of course, this works far better on people not trained for such circumstances—non-military, non-intelligence civilians—than on people who are prepared. However, it could still work on trained individuals, depending on who is doing it and under what conditions.
So, sometimes, interrogation is not about the immediate gain. It is not about one or two intense sessions where you get piles of information and a confession.
Sometimes, it is about developing a suspect over time—forcing them into becoming pliable people who will sign off on or carry out whatever they are told. And quite frankly, it sometimes works for that purpose. If the goal is to turn someone into an agent rather than to extract highly accurate information, and if they are in prolonged confinement—suffering, but not to the point of mental collapse—they may become a somewhat unwilling but cooperative participant in operations or actions simply because they feel they have no other option.
But if you want this method to be effective, it cannot be the only one used. Naturally, it has to be combined with other types of interrogation, discussions, and incentives.
So, it is a characteristic approach—but much more sophisticated and integrated with other forms of interrogation that are known to be effective when the goal is information gathering. It has to be part of a broader system, not just simple, mindless torture—like torturing someone for hours without breaks or direction.
Also, sometimes, the torture is not even about the individual. It is a message to the group or faction that the person belongs to. In such cases, information gathering becomes secondary.
The captors—or the regime—may want to extract information to pass on to their intelligence agencies, but they are often pursuing additional agendas. So, even if someone gives up accurate information, that may not end the torment. There are other objectives involved—like intimidating other prisoners, forcing concessions from the person’s family, and so on.
Iran, for example, is infamous for torturing people in front of their families. It is not necessarily because they need the information—they could likely get it by other means or do not even need it. It is psychological warfare. They want to silence the person, and they want to break their family mentally. It is torture used on the family as much as on the prisoner to extract cooperation or information.
If you want to get someone else to cooperate, it becomes a form of psychological pressure—to watch someone else be tortured. That fear can be more effective than physical abuse. People can break under that kind of psychological pressure, especially if it is extended over time.
Now, we talked about the big players in counterintelligence—China and Russia—but just one more thing I left out: there are countries that, believe it or not, are not familiar with the fact that torture does not work. They genuinely believe that brute force solves all problems.
These countries are not trained, and their methods are primitive. Psychologically, they are obsessed with power, but they lack access to a variety of tools or sophisticated techniques. So, they do what is easiest. It is as simple as that—they use what they know, even if it is ineffective.
And then there are countries that—for good or ill—punch well above their weight regarding intelligence operations. I mean the top half-percent of countries globally in terms of operational sophistication—the ones with the ability to interject themselves into the internal affairs of other governments and countries.
Jacobsen: Who are those countries?
Tsukerman: Because countries have the means and resources to do something, it does not mean they are good at interrogation. For instance, take the Gulf countries. They have the resources to conduct the most sophisticated types of surveillance. But often, they outsource that surveillance to private companies rather than doing it directly.
Despite being trained by Western institutions, their intelligence services are sometimes not sophisticated enough to handle complex operations independently—or they are too small to scale effectively.
Even though they may have access to equipment, they do not necessarily have access to psychological training or advanced interrogation training. So, they may combine somewhat modern—but not cutting-edge—interrogation techniques with other methods. Just because you have resources does not mean you have access. Some of these super-modern interrogation techniques are proprietary, and countries are not always retrained in them.
That is another issue. Sometimes, money does not solve these problems. And, by the way, just because you have super-expensive equipment does not mean you know how to use it properly. We have seen that in defence operations, particularly in the Gulf.
Jacobsen: Why are they dependent on the U.S.?
Tsukerman: Because some of that equipment has to be operated by the manufacturer’s country. Or, secondly, because it takes a long time to train personnel. And when the equipment is brand new, you do not know how to use it immediately.
Similarly, just because you know torture is ineffective and that better techniques exist does not mean you are good at those better techniques. Just because a method exists does not mean you are skilled in applying it. And when you do not know how to apply it properly, you get frustrated and fall back on what you already know.
Jacobsen: So, which countries?
Tsukerman: Look, any country that operates black sites is going to be using methods far outside the norm of basic enhanced interrogation. Torture happens at those sites. That is just the reality—including in the United States.
Now, what happens in regular prisons is a completely different story. In the U.S., torture is not part of the normal framework in standard prisons. The same goes for most of the Western world. But in other countries outside the West, there is a much higher likelihood of some degree of torture occurring, even in standard prison settings. That is a big difference.
Jacobsen: What about, broadly speaking, in intelligence operations? Regardless of size, which country is at the top of what they do? Is there an informal ranking?
Tsukerman: Regarding general intelligence effectiveness, is it not just interrogation?
Jacobsen: Yes, broadly—who knows how to do intelligence well?
Tsukerman: Russia has always ranked quite high for obvious reasons. However, most of its most effective intelligence operations involved disinformation tactics and active measures, not traditional espionage.
Their expertise was in sowing chaos, not necessarily in traditional intelligence gathering. They have always been good at that, too, but were they the best compared to others regarding the so-called “black arts”? Probably not.
Iranian intelligence is considered quite sophisticated in terms of human intelligence capabilities. As for technical capabilities, the U.S. is absolutely number one.
Its Western counterparts—including the Five Eyes—highly depend on U.S. technical capabilities. That is why, while the U.S. is formally dependent on the United Kingdom, especially regarding human intelligence, the U.S. does not rank at the top regarding HUMINT. It ranks highest in terms of technical and technological capabilities.
Israeli intelligence has been considered highly effective, but most of its effectiveness has been focused on regional affairs and counterterrorism. It is not as effective in conventional, global intelligence and counterintelligence operations.
Anything related to counterterrorism is probably their specialty—perhaps also some types of counterintelligence. But are they number one against state actors like China and Russia? I highly doubt it.
Effectiveness is also difficult to measure because of the immense secrecy in the field. You must judge by known successes, visible failures, disclosed methods—which are not always fully revealed—and general reputation based on activity level, budget, and historical record.
But yes, the general observations about technology and human intelligence you mentioned are widely accepted. It is hard to rank who is number three or four. Those lines are quite blurry.
Jacobsen: My follow-up question would be: What have been the boldest intelligence operations we have seen—or that have been credibly claimed—especially in the 21st century? We could go back in history, but I am curious about recent ones with that modern, digital-era flavour.
Tsukerman: Two that came to mind recently are from Israel. One was the daring operation to smuggle Iran’s nuclear archives out of the country. The other was the Hezbollah “Page Up” operation.
Both were classic Israeli-style intelligence missions: out-of-the-box thinking, deep subterfuge, years of groundwork, trust-building, network-building, and even the creation of a fake company—all to achieve one specific goal or to persuade key individuals to believe a fabricated premise.
Highly sophisticated yet elegantly straightforward, both operations quickly became public knowledge and had a significant impact. They extracted vast intelligence, disrupted hostile networks, and achieved national security objectives. So, yes—they were spectacularly successful on every front.
The U.S., by contrast, generally does not release information about successful operations until many years later. Whatever major successes may have occurred recently, we probably will not know about them for a while.
On the other hand, failures are much easier to trace—often because they become public. These include leaks like Edward Snowden’s and others involving so-called whistleblowers or leakers in recent years. Then there is the Havana Syndrome controversy and, of course, the infamous exposure and loss of intelligence assets during the Obama administration around 2012.
During the Iran nuclear negotiations, assets in China, Iran, and Saudi Arabia were reportedly compromised—and many of them met grim fates at the hands of local regimes. So that was a spectacular failure. There were also several people killed—not necessarily because they were actively given up, but due to sloppiness related to poor operational movements. That led to those results.
There have also been some impressive joint operations—like Stuxnet, which was implanted into the Iranian nuclear program. That was, in many ways, a bold and groundbreaking operation. So yes, Iran has been the recipient of some of the most brazen and daring intelligence operations in modern history.
But Iran’s intelligence, especially in tech, is not that strong. We have seen repeated failures not only from major Western powers—like the U.S., the U.K., and Israel, which often work together, sometimes with Australia, the Netherlands, and other allies—but also from terrorist organizations like ISIS and even Iran’s internal opposition movements.
Their counterintelligence is weak. A major reason is that they do not cooperate much with other intelligence agencies. They do not share information, creating structural weaknesses in their operations. There is a high degree of distrust internally and externally. That lack of cooperation makes it extremely difficult to run effective intelligence efforts. You need partners. You cannot rely entirely on your networks.
There was also a major U.S. cyber operation against China recently—this came after a significant failure, during which China gained access to and took control of eight U.S. telecom providers operating based on a single system. That system had a massive vulnerability, and China exploited it.
Jacobsen: What are the weaknesses of having these large, state-level intelligence operations? I get that they are expensive, but large countries can afford that. Are there inherent weaknesses—or are they necessary for the modern world?
Tsukerman: You need strong intelligence agencies in the modern world. But the problem is, when you have too many or become too large, they start overlapping, becoming duplicative, and often end up fighting turf wars. Over time, they become generic and are no longer optimized for their specific missions.
Jacobsen: So you are referring to interagency conflicts?
Tsukerman: Yes—but that is just one piece of it. There is also international interagency conflict, and beyond that, the simple fact that overly bureaucratic, oversized, and rigid agencies are not flexible enough to respond to crises and emergencies in real time.
We have seen failures like that. Take the Prigozhin uprising in Russia. Western powers—including the U.S.—were caught off guard. Their intelligence agencies were not agile enough to quickly collect and act on information. That was a very public and rapid failure.
And, of course, we saw what happened on October 7—a massive counterintelligence failure not only on Israel’s part but also on the part of its partner agencies, including the United States.
All of them failed in the same way to predict that Hamas was preparing for a major attack—with assistance from Iran and other actors. So, that was a huge intelligence failure for many countries.
This is despite multiple reports from individual agents who had accurate assessments. This was an internal agency failure, an analytical failure, and a failure of imagination, a common problem.
Once an agency is firmly established, it becomes slower and more bureaucratic. The more resources it has, the more it gets funnelled into mission creep or administrative bloat. Sometimes, being small and nimble is more effective than being a gigantic barge full of paper pushers.
Jacobsen: Can intelligence agencies become so bureaucratic, duplicative, and large that they begin to challenge the reigning authorities—like, in the way a military might stage a coup?
Tsukerman: I have not seen that happen in the U.S.—and the result has been the opposite. They have become ineffective rather than challenging anyone’s authority (despite what Trump claimed). There has been a lot of internal conflict, half-baked schemes, and counterintelligence failures.
This paranoia about the “deep state” taking over the government is ridiculous. If people understood how bureaucracies work, they would know that the bigger an agency grows, the more internal dysfunction and infighting it suffers. That makes it harder to focus on any mission—even those of critical national interest.
However, Russia is the prime example of subsuming the government. There, the intelligence agencies—not the civilian bureaucracy—are essentially in charge—simple as that. And that has been the case for hundreds of years.
I would also say that in Europe—especially Mediterranean countries—you see power struggles between intelligence agencies and political leadership. Intelligence services sometimes play an outsized role. They might challenge the government and compete with it for influence and agendas. Sometimes, this conflict even plays out publicly.
Jacobsen: We are also forming new information warfare or activism categories. NGOs, INGOs, CSOs, the UN, human rights organizations, state actors, and even non-member observer states like the Holy See or Palestine, religious institutions, and charities. Any one of these can be influenced or even subdued by governments or other powerful actors, right? I mean, even the Russian Orthodox Church is, quite obviously, aligned with the Kremlin.
Tsukerman: Absolutely. Even large, transnational churches can be used for political purposes.
Jacobsen: So, the new category I see emerging—and I will admit my bias—is hacker collectives like Anonymous. They have a different philosophy and a different structure. They operate anonymously and have carried out actions that are often ideologically driven, not aligned with any one state.
This kind of thing is important in how they operate. I mean, they can hold hacking or counter-hacking protests against anti-democratic forces within MAGA. As we know, MAGA’s grievances are legitimate—around offshoring, the loss of manufacturing, and the decline of living standards for the white working class, naturally. However, the anti-democratic forces within it tend to be the ones they go after.
So, what do you make of these new institutions or “collectives” whose entire existence is based around that kind of work but done in this fluid, almost decentralized way?
Tsukerman: Look—technically, if you are an American and you are hacking other Americans, it is illegal. It is as simple as that, no matter what your agenda is.
That said, once something is hacked and the information is leaked—can that information be useful for journalists or others in exposing wrongdoing? Sure.
Let’s say your focus is on a foreign entity, and it turns out there is an American connection—it is still fair game, depending on what you are investigating.
Now, hacking itself is—strictly speaking—illegal. But if you are dealing with highly authoritarian regimes that violate the rule of law, that are essentially at war with your country in some way, and that are actively interfering in democratic institutions through propaganda or other means—then going after them and their agents becomes a gray area.
Are there ways to justify it ethically, even if not legally? Yes, I think so. Ethically speaking, I see how that action is justified and holds value.
Now, who benefits from it, who uses the information, and whether those collectives have informal relationships with law enforcement, intelligence agencies, or private actors—that is something I’m always curious about. One has to be very careful.
In this administration, there is every motivation to go after people—even for minor issues—if they are perceived as going against the administration’s agenda. Those people are likely to be targeted to the extent possible.
Meanwhile, other groups doing similar things but focused on different targets may be completely ignored. Resources are finite. Unfortunately, these particular people will likely become law enforcement priorities under this administration.
But yes, traditional methods are often insufficient to access critical information. Private actors or journalists have no real funding to conduct deep, professional sting operations.
Jacobsen: So, professionally speaking, is it still possible to gain sufficient insight through sting operations by being a member of those collectives?
Tsukerman: It is possible, but building trust would take a long time. And even then, you may not get access to secured communications, financing details, or other sensitive material.
Many of these people are fairly open about who they are, what they stand for, and where their funding comes from. Authoritarian regimes have claimed to have duped people like Tim Pool, for instance.
But honestly, if you are that gullible, why are you in journalism? If you’re that easily duped—if you do not do even the bare minimum of due diligence and have zero questions about the agenda being presented to you, especially when it is propaganda—then you’re not doing your job.
So yes, many people know exactly what they are doing. They are just liars. They are functioning as foreign agents. But even then, because they are American citizens, they still have privacy rights and expectations, which makes it incredibly problematic to go after them through legal means.
You could accidentally expose legitimate personal matters. What you do not want is someone acting out of revenge and endangering the person’s family—minors, for instance—who might get swept up in the fallout. Innocent bystanders can easily end up in the crosshairs.
So, you’re going to do anything. In that case, it has to be extremely precise, very carefully, professionally, and thoughtfully done. It must be completely separated from any culture of revenge. The goal should be to provide real value to the public or law enforcement regarding the authoritarian nature of the individuals in question.
Jacobsen: So, how should people protect themselves?
Tsukerman: Well, first of all—do not commit any crimes. That is a good start.
Jacobsen: Fair enough. Also, do not piss off the mafia.
Tsukerman: Beyond not committing crimes or angering organized crime, everyone should follow some basic principles of situational awareness. For example, walking down the street with your headphones and face buried in your phone is not a good idea. You could get pickpocketed or assaulted. People not paying attention are significantly more likely to be targeted than those who appear confident, aware, and attuned to their surroundings.
Avoid walking alone on dark streets late at night if you can help. But if you must, carry something for self-defence—if you are able. If you practice martial arts, great. If not, pepper spray or some other form of protection is often advisable, depending on your local laws. You want something that gives you an advantage in the event of an attack, especially if multiple individuals confront you.
In terms of cybersecurity, I recommend using Tor to avoid detection. If you are travelling abroad, always use a VPN. I am a fan of ProtonVPN, which is based in Switzerland and is run by the same people behind ProtonMail.
But whether you are using Tor, Signal for encrypted communication, or any VPN service, your overall security depends on the integrity of your device. For example, Signal has vulnerabilities, especially those related to QR codes. If you are using Signal, do not scan QR codes with your phone. Do not take pictures of menus with QR codes—just type in the URL manually, even if it takes a few extra seconds. Be careful.
Unfortunately, modern life—especially events like major conferences—makes avoiding QR codes difficult. However, I usually skip all the surveys and request physical programs instead or go directly to the hosting organization’s website. Conferences are often prime targets for hackers.
Avoid using public Wi-Fi, especially at airports and other high-traffic locations. Use your mobile data or tether from a trusted friend’s hotspot if you need internet access. Public Wi-Fi is just not worth the risk.
Securing your phone and laptop is a must—especially if you live in a country where you are more likely to be targeted for hacking. And I do not just mean Russia or China. Even Gulf states have telecom infrastructure partially or wholly controlled by Chinese companies. The government may not directly target you, but its allies might be.
I recommend carrying a flip phone or an extra phone with a new or local SIM card for basic communication and emergencies. Also, travel with a highly secured laptop—not just email encryption but full device security. Not everyone can afford a satellite phone, but nearly everyone can afford malware protection, antivirus scans, and basic cybersecurity hygiene.
Engage in safe practices. Do frequent scans for malware and spyware. Avoid visiting sketchy websites, especially those that offer online casinos and pornography. I’m sorry, but avoid that content if you want to stay safe. Watch it on TV if you absolutely must. Avoid “smart” devices—the Internet of Things. They are essentially surveillance devices.
If you do not want your phone responding to your voice at random times, do not use AI assistants like Alexa or Siri. They are not good for your mental health either. But suppose you know that China—or anyone—can hack into them easily. In that case, you should assume someone can watch you, whether in the shower, in bed, or working on a sensitive project.
You would not want a stranger to witness these moments, so assume that Alexa or Siri are that stranger. If you are uncomfortable showing something in public, do not let a “smart” device be in the room—it may already be broadcasting that moment to whoever gains access.
As for physical security, it does not hurt to have cameras installed around your home—even if you do not feel like a specific target of criminals, spies, or terrorists. You never know. Better safe than sorry.
Do not advertise your travel plans or absences. Practice common sense digital security. Do not overshare on social media. Do not post pictures of your underage children. There is no reason to. If you want to share with a few close friends, use WhatsApp or similar private messaging apps. You do not need to share names and faces with the whole world.
Do not tell people you have children unless they are trusted colleagues or close friends. Do not share personal information like your home address, routine, or where you are travelling to—or even where you have been—unless it serves a clear purpose. Less is more. The less information is available publicly, the safer you are from strangers using it in ways you never intended.
Use social media for professional purposes, communication, or causes you care about—but be mindful of anything that can be used to identify or track you. Do not tell people what route you take to work or school daily. Do not make your routines predictable.
Jacobsen: So, adopt Donald Trump’s approach to personal safety—be unpredictable.
Tsukerman: Yes—at least somewhat. I do not mean being erratic. Erratic and unpredictable are two different things.
You want to be consistent in your responsibilities but unpredictable in your patterns. You do not want to be the kind of person who suddenly stops showing up to work without warning. But you also do not want to be the person who leaves and returns home at the same time every day, takes the same route, sits in the same restaurant seat, and is always in the same place at the same hour.
Especially if you are in a high-profile role, wealthy, or perceived as influential or a target in any way, that routine can become a vulnerability.
If you go to a restaurant, sit with your back to the wall so you can observe your surroundings. These are just basic, common-sense precautions.
Sitting with your back to the wall means no one can sneak up behind you—including a deranged vagrant wandering into a restaurant. Honestly, that is a much more likely scenario in a place like New York than a random terrorist—but that can happen, too.
Closely watch the people around you. Just be aware of how they are behaving. If something feels off, it is better to leave. Changing your seat, getting off the train, switching buses, or crossing the street is better. You never know.
People can be unpredictable. You do not know what anyone is thinking. They could have a mental illness, be having a moment, be a criminal—or even a terrorist. The key is to watch their behaviour.
For example, if it is 90 degrees out in the middle of summer and someone is wearing a heavy winter coat, that is usually not a good sign. It could be someone with a medical condition. It could be a heroin addict. Or it could be someone hiding a suicide vest. You do not want to get close. Keep your distance, observe, and stay alert.
It is a good habit to develop—regularly scanning your environment and noticing what seems out of place. It can be practiced every day. You do not have to be paranoid—just aware.
Jacobsen: What if someone knows they are entering a dangerous area?
Tsukerman: Then planning is everything.
If you know you’re going somewhere dangerous, plan your route. Establish contact with trusted locals. Understand the specific risks and prepare accordingly. Think through what you will need to stay safe.
Different places pose different types of dangers. Are you entering a high-crime area? Is it a region prone to terrorism? Is it dangerous due to weather conditions—like an incoming snowstorm or icy roads? Are you going into the wilderness where wild animals may be present?
The degree and nature of the danger matter. But in general—try not to go alone. It is always better to have company. Arrange your tasks in advance and rehearse different scenarios. War-game the threat. Run through possible outcomes in your head.
The more prepared you are, the less likely you are to panic. You cannot prepare for every possible scenario. Still, suppose you’re psychologically prepared to stay calm in the face of the unexpected. In that case, you’ll likely escape safely and without harm.
Coordinate as much as possible. Have exit strategies. Always plan for multiple contingencies—Plan A, B, and C.
Ask yourself: What happens if my driver does not show up? Do I have a safe place nearby? Do I have enough cash on me? Am I dressed in a way that draws unwanted attention? Do I have the right gear?
These things can make the difference between being caught off guard—and being in control.
Ask yourself: Do I fit in? Am I unlikely to attract the wrong kind of attention? Those are the questions you want to consider when going somewhere dangerous or unfamiliar. It could be where you are uncomfortable or unsure of what to expect.
Jacobsen: Thank you for your time today.
Tsukerman: Thank you for your time. I appreciate it.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
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Javier Palomarez, CEO of the United States Hispanic Business Council, highlights how policy uncertainty—especially around tariffs—is destabilizing small and medium-sized Hispanic-owned businesses. Unpredictable trade and regulatory shifts are draining vital resources, forcing firms to rework supply chains, pause hiring, and reassess investments. Industries from construction to food services are affected. Some business owners have turned to lobbying or independent trade negotiations to survive. Palomarez stresses that effective policy must be guided by business leader feedback and consistent communication. Hispanic business leadership, he argues, has the potential to shape resilient trade policy through proactive engagement and collective advocacy.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You have mentioned that “uncertainty is the bane of business.” How is uncertainty affecting small and medium businesses?
Javier Palomarez: Unpredictability in regard to both U.S. trade policy and the regulatory landscape costs small and medium sized businesses time and resources. For example, many of our member businesses say they need additional time, funds, employees, or resources to devise strategies and accomplish tasks related to supply chain management, importing and exporting, and fulfilling or navigating regulatory requirements. These are resources that a multitude of businesses cannot afford or do not have. This is why responsible deregulation and relying on the feedback of business leaders is so critical for policy implementation.
Jacobsen: What industries within the United States Hispanic Business Council have been disrupted by the unpredictable tariff policy?
Palomarez: Unpredictable tariff policy has affected just about every industry represented within the U.S. Hispanic Business Council, including construction, auto-manufacturing, infrastructure, tech, software and electronics, transportation, agriculture, and food services, among others.
Jacobsen: How have business owners adapted to the fluctuating trade environment?
Palomarez: Reasonably, our member businesses have responded to the unpredictable trade environment by raising costs, altering supply chain management, methods, or routes, and taking a step back to analyze costs and production. Furthermore, some businesses have taken matters into their own hands and have engaged in their own trade negotiations or have lobbied the federal government to make changes. In some cases, tariff exceptions have been granted by the Trump administration as a result of intervention and lobbying by business owners.
Jacobsen: How does the fear of potential tariffs influence hiring, investment, or supply chain decisions, among member businesses?
Palomarez: The fear of potential higher costs and disrupted supply chains caused by tariffs have forced business owners to rethink new hirings, their current payroll, prices, investments within the United States versus alternative countries, and supply chain methods, among other things. These are all business considerations and factors that can and likely will be affected significantly by tariffs. Resultantly, our member businesses are increasingly likely to have to alter their personnel, prices, and supply chains.
Jacobsen: How do you evaluate the communication and transparency of U.S. trade policy now?
Palomarez: At the moment, communication of U.S. trade policy seems to be coming unilaterally and often sporadically from the office of the President. This isn’t beneficial for business owners because policies can change rapidly, forcing quick and significant changes in prices and business practices. Nothing is necessarily being hidden from businesses and citizens in regard to a lack of transparency, but the unpredictability of tariffs on a country-by-country basis makes business and market decisions highly volatile. Our member businesses are reliant on us and their own research to plan and forecast.
Jacobsen: What have USHBC members said about the human and financial toll of the uncertainty?
Palomarez: Our member businesses repeatedly state that the fear of potential higher costs and disrupted supply chains caused by tariffs have forced them to rethink new hirings, their current payroll, prices, investments within the United States versus alternative countries, and supply chain methods, among other things. Unpredictability will undoubtedly cost significant resources, as employees, funds, and time will be needed to devise new strategies, make monetary decisions, alter supply chains, lobby, and negotiate. Revenue, personnel, and prices can all be affected.
Jacobsen: How can Hispanic business leadership shape future U.S. trade policy to support economic resilience?
Palomarez: Hispanic business owners can shape and reshape future U.S. trade policy in a plethora of ways. First and foremost, devoting time and effort to making your voice heard is essential. Political leaders should rely on feedback from business leaders when making decisions that affect our nation’s businesses – especially the fastest growing segment – hispanic small businesses. That being said, making your voice heard is the only path to achieving advocacy and eventual results. Furthermore, taking matters into your own hands, as many companies have, can significantly benefit your business. For example, some companies have achieved tariff exceptions by lobbying the Trump administration. Others have solved issues pertaining to importing, exporting, and supply chain management by initiating their own trade negotiations. Furthermore, businesses like Zions Bank are hosting their own national and international forums and conversations to have discussions about trade policy and forge potential new paths forward. Business leaders undoubtedly have the power to make a difference and promote economic growth and revitalization.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Javier.zJavier Palomarez, CEO of the United States Hispanic Business Council, highlights how policy uncertainty—especially around tariffs—is destabilizing small and medium-sized Hispanic-owned businesses. Unpredictable trade and regulatory shifts are draining vital resources, forcing firms to rework supply chains, pause hiring, and reassess investments. Industries from construction to food services are affected. Some business owners have turned to lobbying or independent trade negotiations to survive. Palomarez stresses that effective policy must be guided by business leader feedback and consistent communication. Hispanic business leadership, he argues, has the potential to shape resilient trade policy through proactive engagement and collective advocacy.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: You have mentioned that “uncertainty is the bane of business.” How is uncertainty affecting small and medium businesses?
Javier Palomarez: Unpredictability in regard to both U.S. trade policy and the regulatory landscape costs small and medium sized businesses time and resources. For example, many of our member businesses say they need additional time, funds, employees, or resources to devise strategies and accomplish tasks related to supply chain management, importing and exporting, and fulfilling or navigating regulatory requirements. These are resources that a multitude of businesses cannot afford or do not have. This is why responsible deregulation and relying on the feedback of business leaders is so critical for policy implementation.
Jacobsen: What industries within the United States Hispanic Business Council have been disrupted by the unpredictable tariff policy?
Palomarez: Unpredictable tariff policy has affected just about every industry represented within the U.S. Hispanic Business Council, including construction, auto-manufacturing, infrastructure, tech, software and electronics, transportation, agriculture, and food services, among others.
Jacobsen: How have business owners adapted to the fluctuating trade environment?
Palomarez: Reasonably, our member businesses have responded to the unpredictable trade environment by raising costs, altering supply chain management, methods, or routes, and taking a step back to analyze costs and production. Furthermore, some businesses have taken matters into their own hands and have engaged in their own trade negotiations or have lobbied the federal government to make changes. In some cases, tariff exceptions have been granted by the Trump administration as a result of intervention and lobbying by business owners.
Jacobsen: How does the fear of potential tariffs influence hiring, investment, or supply chain decisions, among member businesses?
Palomarez: The fear of potential higher costs and disrupted supply chains caused by tariffs have forced business owners to rethink new hirings, their current payroll, prices, investments within the United States versus alternative countries, and supply chain methods, among other things. These are all business considerations and factors that can and likely will be affected significantly by tariffs. Resultantly, our member businesses are increasingly likely to have to alter their personnel, prices, and supply chains.
Jacobsen: How do you evaluate the communication and transparency of U.S. trade policy now?
Palomarez: At the moment, communication of U.S. trade policy seems to be coming unilaterally and often sporadically from the office of the President. This isn’t beneficial for business owners because policies can change rapidly, forcing quick and significant changes in prices and business practices. Nothing is necessarily being hidden from businesses and citizens in regard to a lack of transparency, but the unpredictability of tariffs on a country-by-country basis makes business and market decisions highly volatile. Our member businesses are reliant on us and their own research to plan and forecast.
Jacobsen: What have USHBC members said about the human and financial toll of the uncertainty?
Palomarez: Our member businesses repeatedly state that the fear of potential higher costs and disrupted supply chains caused by tariffs have forced them to rethink new hirings, their current payroll, prices, investments within the United States versus alternative countries, and supply chain methods, among other things. Unpredictability will undoubtedly cost significant resources, as employees, funds, and time will be needed to devise new strategies, make monetary decisions, alter supply chains, lobby, and negotiate. Revenue, personnel, and prices can all be affected.
Jacobsen: How can Hispanic business leadership shape future U.S. trade policy to support economic resilience?
Palomarez: Hispanic business owners can shape and reshape future U.S. trade policy in a plethora of ways. First and foremost, devoting time and effort to making your voice heard is essential. Political leaders should rely on feedback from business leaders when making decisions that affect our nation’s businesses – especially the fastest growing segment – hispanic small businesses. That being said, making your voice heard is the only path to achieving advocacy and eventual results. Furthermore, taking matters into your own hands, as many companies have, can significantly benefit your business. For example, some companies have achieved tariff exceptions by lobbying the Trump administration. Others have solved issues pertaining to importing, exporting, and supply chain management by initiating their own trade negotiations. Furthermore, businesses like Zions Bank are hosting their own national and international forums and conversations to have discussions about trade policy and forge potential new paths forward. Business leaders undoubtedly have the power to make a difference and promote economic growth and revitalization.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Javier.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/19
Ken Wilcox currently serves on the boards of the Asia Society of Northern California, the Asian Art Museum, and UC San Diego’s 21st Century China Center, as well as Columbia Lake Partners, a European venture-debt fund. He is on the Board of Advisors of the Fudan University School of Management in Shanghai and teaches as an Adjunct Professor at U.C. Berkeley. Ken holds an MBA from Harvard Business School and is a former member of the board of directors of the Federal Reserve Bank of San Francisco. He is former CEO of Silicon Valley Bank (2001–2011) and led SVB’s joint venture with Shanghai Pudong Development Bank. Wilcox discusses the ongoing U.S.-China trade negotiations. Wilcox critiques Trump’s misleading narrative and highlights the longstanding issues rooted in CCP-controlled market advantages, regulatory manipulation, and intellectual property appropriation. Despite years of talks, these core problems remain unresolved. Wilcox casts doubt on Trump’s goals to repatriate U.S. manufacturing and secure fair competition, arguing that bombastic tactics only harden China’s position. He warns that both nations’ win-at-all-costs strategies risk escalating conflict. Meaningful resolution requires structural change, Congressional intervention, and diplomatic recalibration—otherwise, the U.S. may face enduring consequences of a fractured global trade landscape.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is the realistic outcome of the U.S.-China trade talks?
Ken Wilcox: It is difficult to reach a conclusion in a world dominated by a leader who is as unpredictable and inconsistent as ours is today. Trump has positioned Biden as the person who caused the conflict with China and himself as the person who is fixing what Biden messed up. This is a total misrepresentation. Is Trump horribly misinformed or is he being deliberately misleading? A rhetorical question.
Jacobsen: What underlying tension have been longstanding and others are new between China and the U.S.? What about the most frequently disrupted or complicated cross-border business agreements, and do those remain unresolved today?
Wilcox: The underlying problem is that: 1) after all these years (since China was given membership in the WTO well over 20 years ago) the CCP still maintains an uneven playing field in Chinese; 2) the CCP controls this playing field; 3) the CCP promulgates regulations that advantage Chinese companies and disadvantage American companies; 4) the CCP subsidizes Chinese companies; 5) the CCP assists Chinese companies in appropriating knowledge from American companies; and finally 6) the CCP is actively involved in creating companies to compete against American companies using the very knowledge that they appropriated.
The so-called good news has changed nothing. The underlying problem is the same as it was before. And regarding the tariffs: Trump imposed them, the CCP imposed counter-tariffs, Trump gave in and rolled his back; the Chinese rolled their counter-tariffs back. We’re right where we were last week. Nothing has changed.
Jacobsen: Which sectors have the most stake in these negotiations? What signals or policy moves should observers watch from the Chinese leadership?
The CCP agreed to discuss things further. They have been discussing things for many years. Before we applaud, let’s wait and see if Trump scores any meaningful wins in the course of these future discussions.
Trump’s original goals were: 1) to open up China to American companies, in a way that would allow them to compete on a level playing field; and 2) to return the manufacturing that migrated from the U.S. to China over the past 30 plus years back to the U.S. If either of these were even possible, they would each take several years to effect.
Xi cannot afford to grant Trump meaningful concessions because he would lose face (and maybe his position) if he did.
Trump has succeeded in making it even more difficult for Xi to make concessions, by being so bombastic, in a very public way.
Jacobsen: How can China help America compromise, and vice versa? How might domestic Chinese priorities in maintaining internal stability and economic growth influence negotiation strategies and expectations of the U.S.? Any role for joint ventures or private-sector diplomacy in easing tensions? If trade talks break down, what potential long-term consequences are reasonable?
Wilcox: My tentative conclusions include the following:
- Trump’s approach to tariffs will do us more harm than good, and it already has.
- The question of whether or not we should be decoupling from China may have already been answered. China does not believe that cooperation with the U.S. is either desirable or possible. The CCP has already acquired all our knowledge and we are now only in their way as they rise to the top.
- Trump’s style of negotiation is—ironically—in some ways Chinese: keep the opponent off balance, ruthlessly apply whatever leverage you have, demean and deceive your opponent, and seek to win at all costs. What good could possibly come out of a negotiation where both parties employ this strategy? It’s true that practitioners of win-win will lose when confronted by “win at all costs”, but when both parties are committed to winning at all costs, can anyone win at all? Especially when both have nuclear warheads?
This last frightening thought leads to the possibly forlorn hope that our elected officials might grow a badly needed backbone and refuse to accommodate such a dangerous strategy of nuclear-armed chicken. The Congress could take back its power of the purse and strike down the tariffs. It’s difficult to see what winning means now, but insofar as the status quo has been so thoroughly upended, decision-makers need to define how the U.S. could correct the failings of its earlier policies and mend the fences that have been so abruptly bulldozed. If, that is, it’s possible. Otherwise, we will need to live in the mess we have created.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Ken.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/19
Dr. Steven Quay, M.D., Ph.D., founder of Atossa Therapeutics, discussed the cancer risk of CT scans, responding to a modelling study claiming that up to 5% of U.S. cancer cases may stem from CT radiation. He emphasized the need for scientific nuance, noting the body’s natural DNA repair mechanisms and differentiating high-dose from low-dose risks. He highlighted MRI as a safer alternative, although costlier and slower. Quay criticized the overuse of CT scans—especially in children—and the legal pressures that drive excessive diagnostics. He explored AI’s potential to enhance low-dose imaging and praised hybrid technologies like PET/MRI for advancing precision medicine while calling for better science communication and a return to scientist-as-adviser roles.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here with Dr. Steven Quay, M.D., Ph.D. He is a physician-scientist and the founder of Seattle-based Atossa Therapeutics Inc. (NASDAQ: ATOS), a clinical-stage biopharmaceutical company developing novel therapeutics for breast cancer and other conditions. He holds an M.D. and Ph.D. from the University of Michigan, completed a postdoctoral fellowship at MIT with Nobel Laureate Har Gobind Khorana, and served on the Stanford University School of Medicine faculty. He is the author of over 300 scientific publications, holds 94 U.S. patents, and invented seven FDA-approved pharmaceuticals. His current focus is on preventing the approximately two million annual breast cancer cases worldwide.
Thank you very much for joining today—I appreciate it. So, how credible is the estimate—based on the recent NPR reporting—stating that CT scans could cause cancer in up to five percent of annual cancer cases in the United States?
Dr. Steven Quay: I studied the paper carefully and did some background research. It’s a modelling study that does not track individual cancer cases directly but makes predictions.
The cancer risk from radiation exposure in this context is partly derived from long-term studies of the Japanese population that survived the atomic bombings of Hiroshima and Nagasaki. These individuals have been monitored for decades, providing valuable epidemiological data on radiation-induced cancer.
The fundamental issue with radiation-induced cancer is that while high doses are known to be associated with increased cancer risk, it’s less clear how risk behaves at lower doses. The question is: Is there a threshold dose below which radiation does not cause cancer? Or does any amount of radiation carry some risk, no matter how small?
One argument against the “no safe dose” assumption is the existence of over 30 DNA repair enzymes in humans. These enzymes evolved to repair DNA damage caused by various environmental sources, including natural background radiation. If evolution favoured the development of such robust repair mechanisms, it suggests that our bodies can tolerate—and effectively repair—low levels of radiation exposure without leading to cancer.
So, I believe there is a threshold dose below which radiation damage is fully repaired, and thus, the risk of cancer is negligible. But again, this remains an open scientific debate.
Let me pause here—if I’m not careful, I could go on at length. But there’s also the point that we’re all exposed to background radiation from multiple sources—cosmic rays, radon gas, naturally radioactive materials in the Earth, even certain foods—and CT scans need to be considered in that broader context.
It’s a far more nuanced issue than the modelling study or some headlines suggest. I am concerned that alarmist interpretations discourage patients from undergoing a CT scan when it’s medically warranted. That could ultimately do more harm than good.
That’s a high-level overview. We can certainly dive deeper into the specifics.
Jacobsen: How does all of that get translated through the filter of journalism and media—even some of the most respected outlets, like public radio and NPR? How much fidelity is lost in that process?
Quay: I read the NPR interview with the paper’s authors. And, unfortunately, it missed an opportunity. It would have been a great moment to frame it as a scientific debate—because I think that’s important.
As a side note, I believe the public—both in the United States and globally—has a fundamental misconception about science, and in some ways, scientists have misrepresented science. It’s almost a bilateral obfuscation. But people must see how scientists think, talk, and work.
This idea of the “shroud of scientific truth,” so to speak, was overplayed massively during the COVID-19 pandemic, leading to significant public misunderstanding and even distrust of science. So, we’re not in a good place right now.
Getting back to genuine science education and communication would be immensely helpful.
Jacobsen: What methodology—or what assumptions—underlie the projections in that study? Specifically, the claim that up to five percent of annual cancer cases in the U.S. are linked to CT scans?
Quay: Right. So, about 93 million CT scans are performed annually in the U.S. The researchers used cancer incidence data from populations exposed to radiation—particularly the Japanese survivors of the atomic bombings—where cancer outcomes have been studied over decades.
They applied that data to organ-specific radiation doses seen in CT scans. Then, they scaled those numbers based on usage patterns to project how many future cancers might arise. Essentially, it’s a numerical extrapolation.
We know pretty precisely how much radiation a CT scan delivers, and we have historical data on radiation exposure levels from survivors of Hiroshima and Nagasaki who were far enough from the blast to survive the initial explosion but still received significant radiation. By comparing those levels, the researchers created a risk model.
But here’s the challenge: CT doses are extremely low, so the absolute risk is also very low. This brings us back to a key question in radiobiology—does the risk line go through zero, or is there a threshold dose below which damage can be fully repaired?
We know that X-rays cause DNA damage. The question is whether that damage is repairable—and if so, whether the body’s mechanisms are sufficient to prevent cancer development at low doses. This paper is a projection based purely on modelling and assumptions. In my view, it doesn’t meet the clinical trial criteria or even a robust epidemiological study.
Jacobsen: How do you weigh the diagnostic value of CT scans against the long-term carcinogenic risks?
Quay: That’s a great question—and one I’ve been involved with for over 15 years out of a scientific career spanning four or five decades.
And full disclosure here—so there’s no perceived bias—I invented the contrast agent used in MRI imaging.
MRI is a very different modality from CT. MRI machines and scans are more expensive, so they’re used less frequently across large populations. However, MRI uses radiofrequency energy, not ionizing radiation like CT does.
As far as we can tell—and we’ve studied it for 30 to 40 years—MRI produces no long-term biological effects. So, while CT is a powerful and valuable diagnostic tool, especially in emergency or trauma settings, there are situations where alternatives like MRI can and should be considered, particularly when long-term radiation exposure is a concern.
So, MRI is an alternative to CT scanning. However, before MRI was introduced in the early 1980s, CT was already being developed and implemented. It’s particularly effective for imaging bones.
With CT, X-rays are passed through the body and absorbed at different levels depending on the composition of the tissue they pass through. Think of it like a photographic film—though CT doesn’t use literal film, the concept is similar. Denser materials stop more X-rays from reaching the detector.
Materials with a higher atomic number—those farther down and to the right on the periodic table—absorb more radiation. Most soft tissues in the body are composed of elements like carbon, hydrogen, and nitrogen, which do not absorb X-rays strongly. On the other hand, bones contain calcium and phosphate, which do. So, CT is excellent for evaluating bone and detecting bony lesions.
It’s not as suitable for soft tissue imaging. For example, the liver appears relatively homogenous on CT, whereas MRI can reveal detailed structures such as blood vessels and internal segmentation.
That said, CT remains the workhorse of radiology because it’s significantly less expensive—perhaps a fifth or a quarter of the cost of an MRI scan. As a result, many studies are conducted using CT.
I want to make a distinction here. The paper aggregates all age groups and all CT scans and projects approximately 100,000 cancers annually based on that combined dataset. That’s quite different from taking a more nuanced view—acknowledging that there are specific populations where CT scanning measurably increases cancer risk.
This is particularly true for pediatric populations. Children with cancer or other chronic conditions may require multiple CT scans over time. The concern is not just the repeated exposure within a short time frame but also the fact that they have a longer lifespan ahead of them in which a radiation-induced mutation might manifest as cancer.
Studies show there is about a threefold increase in brain tumours and leukemias among children who undergo multiple CT scans. That finding is very credible and well-supported.
However, the paper we’re discussing looks broadly at all diagnostic scans—many of which may be one-time exposures in adults—and draws population-wide conclusions.
Jacobsen: Are particular populations at greater risk from diagnostic radiation exposure? You already alluded to one group in your last response.
Quay: Yes, exactly—I may have gotten ahead of your question there. Children are more susceptible to the effects of CT radiation. But there’s another population I want to highlight: young girls, especially when it comes to chest X-rays.
The breast is unique in that it is not fully developed at birth. Breast tissue forms during puberty and originates from a minimal number of precursor cells—likely just a few thousand in the nipple region of a preadolescent girl. If radiation hits just one of those early cells, there’s a higher likelihood it could lead to breast cancer later on.
And I can share a personal story here. My daughter grew up in Seattle. At one point, she had a mild asthma episode, and we took her to Seattle Children’s Hospital for observation overnight.
Now, I’m an M.D., Ph.D., and my wife is a Ph.D. cancer biologist—she’s discovered major cell lines used in cancer research. Between the two of us, we’re highly trained and observant parents. We paid very close attention to decisions involving radiation exposure, especially for our daughter, precisely because of risks like the one I just described.
But the hospital was determined to do a chest X-ray because they thought our daughter might have swallowed a spoon—or something like that. But she had asthma, and it was affecting both sides of the lungs.
Now, if a child swallows a spoon or any foreign object, it would lodge in one bronchus or the other—not both. So, in that case, you’d expect asymmetrical symptoms: one lung would show signs of obstruction, and the other would be normal. This was a fundamental differential diagnosis. There were simple, non-radiative ways to confirm that it wasn’t a swallowed object.
We ended up taking her out of the hospital because we were afraid they might X-ray her in the middle of the night against our will.
There’s a phenomenon in medicine where we reflexively rely on imaging—especially X-rays—without always considering whether it’s necessary. I’ve taught many medical students, and one of the most critical questions they struggle to answer is this:
Let’s say we run this test. If the result is A, what will you do differently with the patient? If the result is B, what will you do differently? If the answer is: “Nothing will change,” then you should not do the test. The only valid reason to conduct a test is if it helps triage the patient into a different care pathway.
Jacobsen: Has medicine become overly reliant on CT imaging in diagnostic protocols?
Quay: Yes, I believe it has. And that speaks to how we’re training our medical students and clinicians.
As a medical student, I know the diagnostic process differed before CT and MRI. There was a guiding principle: imagine you’re in your office, with a long hallway leading to your door. The patient is walking down that hallway toward you. Your goal is to make the diagnosis before they reach the chair in front of your desk.
The point of that exercise is not to be showy or clever—it’s to emphasize that clinical observation, listening to the patient, and reasoned deduction are powerful diagnostic tools. In many cases, those skills are enough to arrive at a likely diagnosis or at least to rule out the most dangerous possibilities.
Unfortunately, in modern practice, we’ve become too quick to default to a battery of blood tests or a CT scan before fully engaging in patient dialogue and physical examination.
We could eliminate up to a third of CT scans currently performed I believe. And if you accept the modelling studies that suggest CT scans cause cancer, then eliminating a third of those scans would also prevent a substantial number of future cancer cases.
That would be a significant public health improvement that doesn’t require new technology, just better clinical decision-making.
The flip side of the conversation around unnecessary scans is the legal pressure physicians face. Some will argue, “If I misdiagnose something—even if I did everything right and simply chose not to order a CT scan—I could still get sued for malpractice.”
The legal environment may be contributing to overuse. Lawyers in the malpractice industry are likely responsible for increasing the number of diagnostic tests ordered. Because once you’ve done everything—X-rays, CT scans, labs—you can say, “I followed protocol. I did everything I could.” That’s more defensible in court than saying you didn’t run a particular test that, in retrospect, might have revealed a diagnosis.
Jacobsen: But those arguments, while dramatic in a courtroom—especially in American courtroom drama—often don’t reflect how diagnostics work in real clinical settings. Outside the legal concerns, what about reducing the cost of alternative scans that carry less long-term risk?
Quay: There aren’t many options. We’re working with three main technologies:
- X-ray/CT, which uses ionizing radiation;
- MRI, which uses radiofrequency and magnetic fields, and
- Ultrasound, which uses sound waves.
Each has its pros and cons. Ultrasound, for example, has limitations—it can’t penetrate bone, so you can’t use it effectively inside the chest or skull. It can scan between the ribs but not behind them. Dense materials block sound.
However, ultrasound can be beneficial for areas like the breast. There’s a condition called dense breast tissue, where the background tissue on a mammogram makes it challenging to detect cancer. In such cases, ultrasound can make the tumours more visible—they can practically “scream out” on the scan.
The issue with ultrasound is that it’s operator-dependent. The accuracy of the scan often depends on the person holding the probe. I’ve been involved in clinical trials where thousands of ultrasound studies were conducted, and when you segregated the data by technician, it became clear: one nurse was exceptional, and the rest were average or below average. That’s a fixed limitation with ultrasound.
Again, we’re mainly working with X-ray/CT, ultrasound, and MRI, which are your core modalities.
Jacobsen: What about AI integration? Is it relevant here?
Say the cost of all scans goes down—CT scans remain a third or a fifth of the cost of an MRI, but the absolute price falls to where CT used to be. Would that shift medical practice?
Quay: I think so, yes. Most people—patients and physicians—would prefer an MRI if it were cost-competitive.
But there’s a nuance to that. Time.
A CT scan can be completed in seconds. An MRI, on the other hand, can take 10 to 20 minutes, sometimes longer. That difference matters in emergency settings or even in busy hospital workflows.
When MRI machines were being priced out, we used to say that the cost—factoring in purchase, installation, staffing, and maintenance—was $20 to $40 per minute of scan time. That’s a serious economic factor.
So, even if scan prices come down, those time and infrastructure costs still weigh into clinical decision-making. But yes, if MRI becomes affordable and scalable, we’d see a shift in practice patterns toward its use.
There’s also the cost factor to consider. When you purchase an MRI machine—what we call “the magnet”—you usually take out a bank loan. You’re paying off that loan, and there’s pressure to maximize throughput.
That introduces a real-world constraint: How many patients can you scan daily? How efficiently can you get them in and out of the machine? These questions directly impact the economics of running an imaging center.
The underlying technology is nuclear magnetic resonance. When MRI machines were first introduced, they were called NMR machines. But that name scared people—”nuclear” anything tends to do that—and there was even a joke at the time: NMR stood for “No More Radiologists” because the machines produced such vivid images that some thought you no longer needed a radiologist to interpret them.
Jacobsen: We discussed the lack of many players or modalities in the imaging space. But in terms of reducing cumulative radiation exposure, what alternatives can be employed? For example, if someone needs multiple scans, could we alternate between CT and MRI, depending on availability, to reduce that cumulative risk—mainly if future, large-scale clinical trials support these cancer projections?
Quay: That’s a thoughtful idea, Scott. Let’s step back for a second and talk about why we imagine in the first place. Medical imaging generally serves two primary functions:
- Diagnosis – This is typically a one-time event. You use imaging—like mammography, for instance—to detect something, and once the diagnosis is confirmed, you move on to treatment.
- Therapy monitoring involves repeated imaging, usually to assess the effectiveness of a cancer treatment. Physicians track tumour shrinkage or growth over time using follow-up scans for inoperable tumours treated with radiation or chemotherapy.
That’s where the cumulative exposure comes in—and, notably, where the threefold increase in brain tumours and leukemias in children has been documented. These children often undergo multiple scans to monitor ongoing conditions.
Alternating between CT and MRI is creative—you’re the first person to suggest that to me. But in practical terms, it might be challenging to implement. The workflows, protocols, and data outputs are quite different. Clinicians must harmonize the imaging protocols and interpretation standards between the two modalities.
Jacobsen: How about combining CT and MRI datasets—and then using AI to integrate them for a more comprehensive image?
Quay: That is already happening, and it’s a fascinating frontier.
There’s a lot of AI innovation in imaging, especially in high-volume screening areas. Take Pap smears, for example. You collect cells from the cervix, place them under a microscope, and look for cancerous or pre-cancerous changes.
AI is now used to pre-scan those slides. It highlights areas of interest and flags them for the pathologist. A single slide may have 40,000 or 50,000 cells, but AI might identify a cluster of 15 cells that require close examination. This helps the doctor focus attention where it matters most.
The FDA has approved software that precisely guides the examiner from spot to spot with high precision.
Jacobsen: Is similar AI integration happening in mammography?
Quay: Yes. AI is also playing a growing role in mammogram interpretation. It assists radiologists by flagging suspicious regions, improving both speed and accuracy. It’s also beneficial in reducing false negatives and catching subtle findings that might be overlooked.
We’ve worked with the Karolinska Institute in Sweden on a really interesting mammography problem. One challenge with standard mammogram screening is called interval cancer. Most women receive mammograms every two years and they are both normal.
But there’s a small percentage of high-risk women who develop cancer between those scheduled screenings. That’s called an interval cancer—a cancer that arises in the interval between two mammograms. It’s incredibly frustrating, both for the women and the clinicians, because you’re doing everything by the book—getting regular scans—and yet cancer still appears in the interim.
So, we took a generative AI program and trained it on a massive dataset. We gave the AI 70,000 mammograms from women who did not develop interval cancers within two years and 7,000 mammograms from women who did. Then we asked the AI:
“Figure out what differentiates these two groups the greatest. Identify whatever diagnostic indicators you can find.”
The system ran continuously, 24/7, for a long time. When it was done, the results were impressive. While we don’t fully understand all the features the AI uses—it’s not always explainable—it was able to separate the two groups with about 90% accuracy. In other words, the algorithm can predict which women will likely develop interval cancer within the next two years.
We’re now using those findings to prepare to launch a prevention strategy using a drug I invented called Endoxifen. It blocks estrogen activity in the breast, quieting cellular behaviour in estrogen-sensitive tissues.
Estrogen is a wonderful hormone—it’s essential to what makes women—but it’s also a potent growth factor in tissues like the breast, uterus, and ovaries, which is why it’s linked to cancer development in those areas.
So that’s a case where AI has had a tangible, clinical impact. To put it into perspective, there are 39 million mammograms performed annually in the U.S., and about 10 million women have dense breast tissue. Within that group, we estimate there are 2 million women at elevated risk who could benefit from proactive treatment to prevent breast cancer.
Preventing even a fraction of the 250,000 breast cancer cases per year would be a significant public health achievement—and AI is helping us get there.
Jacobsen: When do you expect diminishing returns from a generative AI program like this? You’ve used a dataset of 70,000 non-cancer and 7,000 cancer cases. Would increasing the sample size to 350,000, for example, give you 95% or 99% predictive accuracy?
Quay: That’s an excellent question. The answer lies in the shape of the learning curve—and it’s an asymptote.
You do see diminishing returns as you increase the sample size. The early gains in accuracy are significant, but after a certain point, the improvements become more incremental despite larger and larger datasets.
Now, I have to switch hats—from scientist and physician to businessman—since I run a public company (Atossa Therapeutics, ticker symbol ATOS) focused on preventing breast cancer.
So here’s the business logic: If I can identify the top 10% of women most likely to develop breast cancer—even with just 90% predictive accuracy—and treat them with a pharmaceutical that has side effects no greater than a sugar pill, that’s a powerful intervention.
You’re getting substantial benefits with minimal downside. That makes much sense from a cost-effectiveness and public health perspective, even if you’re not hitting 99% predictive accuracy.
I’m probably comfortable with that risk-benefit ratio. Because I’m not going to harm someone who wouldn’t otherwise develop cancer—that is, the 10% of women who are flagged by the AI but wouldn’t go on to develop breast cancer.
If I can identify and treat the 90% of women who will develop cancer, even knowing that I won’t prevent all of them—because not all breast cancers are estrogen-driven—I still consider that a significant win.
When you dig into the biology, about 60% of breast cancers are estrogen-sensitive. So, if there are roughly 250,000 new breast cancer cases annually, and I can reduce that to 100,000 or 120,000 by using Endoxifen to prevent estrogen-driven instances, that means preventing well over 120,000 breast cancers a year.
That would be a big deal.
Jacobsen: I have two more questions. Are there any follow-ups to what you’ve said? For breast health, how do radiation concerns from imaging intersect with efforts in early detection?
Quay: That’s a critical point. I’ve already mentioned one high-risk population—preadolescent girls. To perform a chest X-ray on a girl in that age group, you need to have a powerful clinical justification. And parents need to ask the right questions:
- What are you expecting to see on this X-ray?
- If you see it, how will that change the treatment plan?
60% of chest X-rays in children wouldn’t hold up to that kind of scrutiny. And we should be asking those questions. There’s a reflex in medicine—without casting blame—especially in top-tier pediatric institutions, to follow set protocols.
For example, if a child presents with asthma, do A, B, C, and D, and include a chest X-ray. It’s part of a checklist, but it shouldn’t be. We need to move away from that kind of reflexive imaging.
So yes, adolescents and children are one group we should be particularly cautious about.
Mammograms are quite safe when done properly. We’ve reduced the X-ray dose in modern mammography by eight to tenfold compared to previous generations. So, women today receive only about 10% of the radiation dose used decades ago.
One of my criticisms of the study we’ve been discussing is that it relies on historical data from older, higher-dose X-rays. The field has advanced significantly since then.
Now that you’ve raised the topic, I have an idea I hadn’t fully considered before: AI might allow us to reduce radiation dose even further by enhancing the degraded image and reconstructing detail from lower-energy scans.
That’s a very promising avenue. I suspect the next generation of X-ray technology will follow suit, relying on AI-assisted reconstruction to allow for even lower radiation doses without sacrificing diagnostic quality.
And finally, we need to be highly cautious with radiation exposure in areas like the breast and the ovaries.
- The breast, especially during development, is susceptible to radiation.
- The ovaries are even more sensitive. A woman is born with all the 40,000 to 50,000 oocytes she will have in her lifetime, and any damage to those affects not just her health but potentially the next generation.
We use lead aprons during imaging to protect the reproductive organs when exposure is unavoidable.
When imaging the abdomen, it’s primarily soft tissue—few bones obstruct the view. In many cases, ultrasound is an excellent, non-radiative option for abdominal imaging.
You can use ultrasound to assess several abdominal issues. You can see if the appendix is enlarged, evaluate liver blood flow, check for splenic enlargement, or even detect a bowel obstruction. You can also get a sense of where the obstruction is. So yes, ultrasound has many diagnostic strengths—especially in soft tissue evaluation.
Now, when it comes to bone lesions, CT is still superior. By definition, CT imaging is better for bone than MRI because bones appear dark—almost black—on an MRI scan. That’s because bones don’t emit a strong signal in MRI; they’re primarily signal voids.
Jacobsen: That leads to something I mentioned in the previous question—what innovations might reduce reliance on radiation-based tools? Specifically, what if we reduce or degrade the radiation in an X-ray or CT scan and then use AI to reconstruct or enhance the image?
It reminded me of something Dr. Chen Wang presented recently—he discussed how AI can take a few pixels and predictively fill in a complete image using advanced algorithms. That kind of generative pixelation already works for entertainment and digital art. So why not apply it in clinical imaging?
Quay: That’s entirely possible, and I find it very exciting.
When you think about CTs or MRIs, you’re essentially dealing with 2D representations of 3D structures. These images are captured in cross-section, typically with about 1-millimetre in-plane resolution and about 1-centimetre thickness per slice.
So imagine these scans as a series of vertical columns—almost like looking through the body like a magician has sliced it into layers. Each image gives a thin, cross-sectional view of anatomy.
To clarify something you raised, we don’t want to take one high-resolution quarter of the image and ask AI to extrapolate the rest—that doesn’t work due to the anisotropic nature of human anatomy. In other words, knowing what’s on the right side of the body won’t let you accurately guess what’s on the left side. The human body isn’t perfectly symmetrical or predictable that way.
Instead, we’d want a low-resolution image of the whole organ or region and then use AI to enhance the resolution uniformly. That is feasible and very exciting. You’re getting diagnostic value from less data, which means less radiation in the case of X-rays or CT.
Mathematically, this is similar to the principles behind Pointillism in art. It’s like the work of Georges Seurat, the French artist who pioneered Pointillism. He painted entire scenes using tiny dots, and when you stand up close, all you see are those individual dots. But when you step back, your eye blends them into a coherent image.
Jacobsen: So you could imagine a future in which we capture only a partial-resolution image with low radiation and then use AI to “fill in the dots,” so to speak.
Like Seurat’s paintings, where the whole picture only emerges from the collection of points, a high-fidelity medical image might be reconstructed from limited data, enhancing safety and diagnostic power.
That approach—applying generative models from art and imaging science to clinical radiology—could be one of the most essential frontiers in medical imaging. And it’s not science fiction. It’s within reach.
Quay: I agree. My point is that we understand the mathematics behind how an image—when viewed at a distance—comes together to display anatomical detail. But when you zoom in to the pixel level, you can analyze how density transitions from one pixel to its neighbouring pixel occur. You see gradients and slopes in intensity values, and those transitions can be mathematically modelled.
AI can replicate those patterns with high fidelity by analyzing these local changes in density across neighbouring pixels. Thus, generative AI can enhance resolution in medical imaging very well.
It’s also true that the grayscale spectrum—the difference between black and white tones in a CT image—is directly tied to the X-ray dose. You have a curve: if the image is underexposed, it looks all white; if it’s overexposed, it looks all black. The ideal image sits in the middle of that S-shaped exposure curve—the “sweet spot.”
Most current CT systems aim to operate in that optimal range. But if we could reduce the dose—bringing us slightly down that curve toward lower radiation—we could then use AI to reconstruct or restore the detail that would otherwise be lost. That process would be quantifiable and demonstrable. You could calculate how much dose you can safely reduce and how much AI would need to compensate.
Jacobsen: That makes sense. Do you also need to calibrate the radiation based on someone’s body size—a taller person with a higher BMI and more bone, muscle, or fat tissue?
Quay: Absolutely. That’s a critical part of how diagnostic radiology works.
Before a full scan, a very low-dose calibration or scout scan measures the patient’s body habitus—tissue density and size. Based on that measurement, the system automatically adjusts the radiation dose to give the image enough penetration and contrast for diagnostic clarity while still using the lowest necessary dose.
Jacobsen: Let’s say you had fewer dots—or, in our case, fewer pixels. AI could fill in the missing information using statistically reasoned interpolation, much like Seurat’s work, where the viewer’s eye blends the dots into a coherent image.
This is very similar to image enhancement techniques used in social media applications today—except we’d be applying them to clinical diagnostics, not entertainment.
Quay: If you have large pixels and abrupt differences between them, the AI makes the pixels smaller and smooths the gradient between values. That’s mathematically straightforward. We can improve diagnostic quality from a clinical imaging standpoint while potentially reducing radiation exposure. That’s a win for patient safety and diagnostic precision.
With CT imaging, we’re not dealing with colour—just a grayscale. You’re looking at 256 shades of gray, more or less.
Jacobsen: Switching gears: in the broader field of radiology and cancer diagnostics, what are some changes you’ve seen over your career that, perhaps obvious to seasoned experts, have only recently been implemented or adopted systematically?
Quay: That’s a great question—and I think we’ve touched on some of them already.
The continual improvement in both CT and MRI has been remarkable. When I first invented gadolinium-based contrast agents for MRI, it used to take about 20 minutes to capture a single image of the heart. Now, we can generate real-time videos of the heart—20 frames per second—allowing clinicians to watch the heart pump in action.
Both spatial and temporal resolution have improved dramatically, and radiology has seen one of the most significant advances over the past few decades.
But I do want to make a cautious observation here. It’s always risky to declare that we’ve hit a plateau—like claiming civilization is at its peak, and everything after is declining. But in radiology, it does feel like we’ve entered a phase of incremental improvement rather than revolutionary change.
We haven’t been back to the Moon since I was young. So, just like in space exploration, radiology may be in a stable phase now. That’s not bad—it just means we’re refining what works rather than inventing entirely new modalities. The invention of MRI was worth one, maybe two Nobel Prizes because it was such a transformational technology. But I don’t think there’s another imaging modality on the horizon of that magnitude—at least not yet.
That said, there have been innovations in hybrid imaging. Take prostate cancer, for example—not diagnosis, but staging. In this context, a blending of modalities is happening—specifically, the integration of PET—Positron Emission Tomography—with CT or MRI. PET allows you to visualize metabolic activity in tissues using radioactive tracers.
PET uniquely uses physics.
Unlike traditional radiation, which radiates outward in all directions—like an expanding sphere—positron emission involves the release of two particles travelling in opposite directions, typically at 180 degrees to each other. The scanner is programmed to only record the simultaneous events, not single events, and so is a very sensitive method.
Because of that predictable behaviour, you can detect the origin point with remarkable precision. That makes PET incredibly useful for detecting areas of active metabolism, like cancer cells, and mapping them in 3D when combined with CT or MRI data.
One of the recent innovations is fused imaging, which combines anatomical imaging (like CT or MRI) with functional imaging (like PET). That hybrid approach gives you both structure and activity, and it’s already transforming cancer staging, particularly for prostate, lung, and certain lymphomas.
So, if you put a circular detector around a person who’s been given a radioactive tracer that emits positrons and configures the system only to detect coincident particles—that is, two particles hitting opposite sides of the detector simultaneously—you drastically reduce background radiation noise.
Background radiation is a real thing. We haven’t talked about it yet, but it’s essential. For instance:
- Cosmic radiation accounts for about 20% of the dose from a chest CT.
- The Earth is radioactive, contributing about a third of a typical CT dose.
- Even foods can be radioactive—bananas are a classic example due to their high potassium content. You can get a reading on a Geiger counter if you hold it near a banana.
- Radon gas—a naturally occurring radioactive gas—can seep from the ground into homes. In certain regions, homebuyers will do a radon test, and homes may be fitted with gas-impermeable barriers to block radon exposure.
Positron emission tomography (PET) has a very low background signal because it’s rare for cosmic rays or Earth-based radiation to produce two coincident particles 180 degrees apart. That’s why PET imaging is highly sensitive.
But here’s the trade-off: PET has very high sensitivity but poor spatial resolution.
If you’ve ever seen a standalone PET scan of a patient with prostate cancer or metastatic breast cancer, the images are crude. You can barely make out a human shape like a child’s stick figure drawing. You see vague outlines: maybe two legs, some glowing clusters. Not very detailed.
So here’s the innovation in prostate cancer staging:
Researchers took an antibody that binds specifically to prostate cancer cells, attached a PET-emitting radionuclide to that antibody, and then embedded the PET scanner inside an MRI machine.
Now, that’s expensive—General Electric loves it—but it’s powerful. You get the sensitivity of PET, down to just a tiny cluster of cancer cells, and the high-resolution anatomy of MRI. With that, a surgeon can say, “Here’s exactly how I can reach that tumour cluster,” or a radiation oncologist can say, “I know precisely how to target this with external beam therapy.”
These are powerful multimodal imaging tools. And again, this isn’t theoretical. It’s already happening. So, while I wouldn’t say we’re in the sunset of innovation in radiology, the field is grounded in physics—and physics doesn’t change easily. We’re working within the laws of nature.
Jacobsen: That reminds me of something Alexis Rockman—the artist behind the original Earth Day poster—once said. He’s done the activist circuit and is incredibly talented.
He whimsically but seriously said that climate change is a physics experiment. Whether we protest or not doesn’t change the underlying laws of physics. We either act or we don’t. Nature doesn’t care about ideology.
So, in the same way, your point about radiation is similar: physics is physics. I’d love to hear your thoughts on something James Randi used to talk about: the “woo” ideas people have about radiation versus the realities. What are some common misconceptions people have about radiation?
Quay: Yes, great question. And you’re right—just like with climate science, the laws of physics don’t care whether you believe in them. They operate regardless of opinion.
There are quite a few radiation misconceptions.
Many people think all radiation is harmful or that even small exposures are deadly. But that’s not true. We’re exposed to radiation constantly—from space, the Earth, and even inside our bodies. And we’ve evolved with mechanisms to handle low levels of radiation. The problem comes with high, repeated, or unnecessary exposures.
People also tend to conflate all types of radiation—like confusing non-ionizing radiation (such as from your phone or microwave) with ionizing radiation (like X-rays or gamma rays). They’re not remotely the same in terms of biological impact.
The key is to understand context, dose, and duration. Just as a small amount of radiation from a medical imaging scan can provide life-saving information, so too can we manage radiation risks intelligently without falling into paranoia or ignoring real hazards. The general public still significantly misunderstands radiation’s risks, applications, and how it works.
Take nuclear energy, for example. It is the most viable solution if we genuinely want to replace fossil fuels. You cannot fully replace fossil fuels with wind and solar alone. The reason is simple: they’re intermittent. The sun doesn’t always shine, and the wind doesn’t always blow. You need a reliable backup, and that’s where nuclear could come in.
Nuclear and fossil fuels—apart from the portability of fossil fuels but not nuclear—are functionally identical when it comes to producing constant, base-load power. However, due to early atomic plant designs that lacked sufficient safety measures and the catastrophic events that followed, public fear of nuclear energy skyrocketed and has not subsided.
As a result, building new nuclear plants has become politically and socially complex. Existing plants are being decommissioned, and they are unlikely to be recommissioned. That’s a huge missed opportunity. Today, we can engineer extraordinarily safe nuclear reactors, literally fail-proof. But irrational fear is standing in the way—fear rooted in radiation anxiety, not objective risk assessment.
The same principle applies to medical imaging—especially CT scans. People often overestimate the danger.
Here’s a simple comparison: if you fly over the polar routes—from Asia to North America or Asia to Europe—three times, the cosmic radiation you absorb is equivalent to one head CT scan.
If you trust that the greater than 30 DNA repair enzymes in your body are still functioning properly—no matter your age—then there’s no need to fear low-level radiation from a medically indicated CT scan. We are, quite literally, built to tolerate a reasonable amount of radiation.
Jacobsen: Last question—complete side note, but it comes up often in the news: How dangerous are cell phones?
Quay: That’s a common concern, and I’m glad you asked.
Cell phone networks transmit signals via radio frequency (RF) waves. As data demands increased over time, engineers had to increase the frequency bands to allow more users and data to pass through the same bandwidth—like widening a digital highway.
So, each generation of mobile technology—from 2G to 5G—uses higher frequencies to boost signal-carrying capacity.
The scientific literature shows that the human body has a limited biological response to these radiofrequency waves. There is no credible evidence that they cause cellular damage or increase cancer risk.
Particular frequencies do interact with the human body—the foundation of MRI. In an MRI machine, a powerful magnetic field aligns the hydrogen protons in your body (mainly from water). Then, a precisely tuned radiofrequency pulse is applied, causing the protons to flip their orientation. When the pulse is turned off, the protons return to their baseline at different rates depending on the tissue. That’s what gives you the contrast in an MRI image.
So yes—radiofrequency waves can interact with the body—but only at particular frequencies, controlled conditions, and much higher energy levels than cell phones emit.
Cell phones operate far below that threshold. They do not have the energy to disrupt electron orbitals or affect molecular bonds in human tissue. So, based on everything we know and all the best available data, cell phones are not dangerous in this context.
So, hydrogen has one electron, helium has two, carbon has six, and so on. Life as we know it is built on the interaction of electrons. That’s electron chemistry—not nuclear chemistry.
The nucleus is so powerful and tightly bound that you can’t alter it through everyday chemical processes. The only way to do nuclear chemistry is through nuclear reactions—think Oppenheimer and the atomic bomb. That’s an entirely different domain of physics.
But electron chemistry—yes, it may seem not very interesting, but it’s the foundation of all biological life. So, while radio frequencies from cell phones can theoretically cause resonance in the hydrogen protons in the nucleus of the water in your body, they don’t disrupt the nucleus or disrupt atomic structures. And as far as we know, they have no biological impact on those energy levels.
Jacobsen: Any final thoughts—not necessarily about radiology specifically—but about the NPR report or the study behind it?
Quay: Yes. It’s critically important for scientists to engage in public debates on issues of broad significance. And I want to emphasize this: science is never settled.
Now, gravity has never failed us—it’s always waiting. I joke with my kids, “Gravity is always there—it’s just waiting for you to slip.” But even gravity is still described by a theoretical model. And beyond such fundamentals, most areas of science are far more fluid.
The notion that science is fixed—a belief that emerged prominently during the COVID-19 pandemic—is simply incorrect. Science evolves through iteration, refinement, and continuous questioning.
Unfortunately, during the pandemic, scientists often crossed the line between being advisers and becoming policymakers. That’s not our role.
The scientist’s job is to say, “If you implement policy X, here are the likely outcomes—positive and negative.” For example, if you put masks on children still learning to speak, a scientist might advise: “Well, their language development may be impaired because children learn by mimicking facial expressions and mouth movements.” That’s a valid, science-based point.
However, the decision to mask or not should be made by elected policymakers, not scientists acting as de facto authorities. Unfortunately, we saw too much mission creep—science dictating rather than informing policy.
We need to restore that boundary. Scientists should provide insight, not edicts. And those making laws should be the people we vote for.
Right now, governance has become lopsided. Too many decisions are made by individuals we don’t vote for rather than those we elect. Society may need to reevaluate and recalibrate this.
But at its core, science remains humanity’s greatest invention. The scientific method—designing controlled experiments, isolating variables, forming hypotheses, testing them, and iterating—has given us almost everything in modern life, including, for example, the video call we’re on right now and the network that enables it across thousands of miles.
It is, truly, the hallmark of civilization.
And the next stage, our partnership with generative artificial intelligence is upon us.
We are now enter uncharted territory where, as AI approaches or even exceeds human intelligience, the master-slave relationship between humanity and technology may actually be shifting. That’s another debate we’ll need to have as a society.
Jacobsen: Dr. Quay, thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate your expertise and your willingness to explore many off-track but essential topics, as tends to happen in my interviews.
It was a pleasure to meet you.
Quay: Same here, Scott. Take care.
Jacobsen: Take care. Bye-bye.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/18
Ben Greene, a transgender advocate and educator, shares insights on the evolving landscape for trans rights in the U.S. From his early isolation in Connecticut to national advocacy through TEDx and legislative testimony, Greene emphasizes empathy and storytelling. He critiques fearmongering in politics and media, highlighting Christian nationalism’s influence on anti-trans policies. Greene stresses the importance of hope, state-level victories, and consistent engagement. Through his publication Good Queer News, he amplifies underreported progress. Despite widespread misinformation, he believes universalist ethics and human dignity prevail over reactionary forces driven by fear, control, and declining political influence.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Ben Greene is a transgender advocate, educator, and public speaker who fosters inclusion through empathy and storytelling. After moving to a small town in Connecticut at age 15, Ben gained national attention through a TEDx talk at Brandeis University—I believe that’s how you pronounce it.
Since then, he has spoken internationally for companies, hospitals, schools, and government institutions about what it means to be transgender and how to be an effective ally. A passionate defender of trans youth, Ben has frequently testified at the Missouri State Capitol and offers free guidance to families and support groups across the United States. His motto is, “The only question I won’t answer is the question you don’t ask.”
So, this is an “Ask Me Anything” session—a sort of TEDx after-talk. Thank you very much for joining us today.
This is an interesting one. Comparing Connecticut when you left in 2020 to its current state and the broader national context, how do the micro and macro reflect one another?
Ben Greene: I haven’t lived in Connecticut for a while. I went to school in Boston in 2017, so it’s been some time. I transitioned as a teenager. When I came out, nobody knew what that meant. It was a very unfamiliar concept to the people around me.
I was the first transgender person most people in my life had ever met. On a micro level, that experience was very isolating—and I think that’s where a lot of the country was then. We were just a couple of years past the publication of The Transgender Tipping Point. Some people have started to learn about it. We had just seen marriage equality passed by the Supreme Court here in the U.S.
So it was okay—but there were no structural supports, and culturally, it was pretty neutral. I had to build all my support systems as I realized I needed them.
Now, Connecticut has changed. There are certainly pockets of radicalization—Moms for Liberty chapters, more vocal religious nationalists—but on the whole, the state has taken a structural stance. It’s asking, “What else can we do to support our residents?”
Last year, they launched a significant initiative to attract LGBTQ travellers, essentially saying, “Hey, Florida isn’t a safe vacation destination anymore. Come here instead.” They created a whole LGBTQ travel section on the state’s website highlighting safety and tourism, and they’ve talked about expanding shield laws.
Like many states, Connecticut has found ways to plant its flag and say, “We want to show up for our trans and queer residents,” even in the face of rising national hostility.
The United States, meanwhile, is at a strange inflection point.
Jacobsen: I mean, on the one hand—not all, naturally; no group is a monolith. However, the demographics that statistically lean strongly toward being against trans-supportive policy or healthcare provisions—populations tend to be declining in the United States. At the same time, policy aggression around these issues increases.
What do you make of that sort of apparent paradox—or maybe not a paradox?
Greene: Yes. So, what I’d say is—that it’s true that more people are becoming increasingly supportive of trans and LGBTQ people, if for no other reason than that more people now personally know someone who is transgender. There’s a saying I love: “It’s hard to hate up close.” And many people are learning that truth.
Jacobsen: I like that line.
Greene: I love that line. I didn’t come up with it, but I enjoy it. I do much work with different PFLAG chapters in rural areas, and many times, it’s a farmer saying, “Well, my kid’s using they/them now. I need to learn what that means. Let me figure out how to show up.”
So, on the whole, I think people are becoming more supportive. But the far right—and particularly a network often called a “shadow network” of Christian nationalist organizations—very much wants to use this issue as a foot in the door to push for broader Christian nationalism. So they stir up much anger.
Much misinformation is designed to spark outrage: “Look at what they’re doing in schools” or “Look at what’s happening in sports.” The goal is to manufacture a fear that distracts people from noticing real, tangible issues like grocery prices going up 25% in the last few years, many people’s inability to afford their rent, or wages stagnating.
The party that’s primarily focused on attacking the trans community has so effectively galvanized its base that many of its supporters do not realize the party is doing very little to help them with the things they are struggling with.
Judith Butler’s book Who’s Afraid of Gender? Explores this. She writes about how trans people have become convenient scapegoats—stand-ins for larger anxieties around economic uncertainty, climate change, family roles, religious shifts, and identity in a rapidly changing world.
At this point, it’s almost a running joke: something terrible happens—say a plane crashes—and someone says, “Okay, how long until they blame a transgender person?” Usually, it takes about a day. Someone will say, “Oh, that crash in D.C.? I think the pilot was transgender.” It’s almost always false, often a baseless rumour, but it quickly becomes a narrative: How can we blame trans people for what’s going wrong right now?
Jacobsen: Right. And it is true, generally speaking, that with large corporate media—left, right, or centrist—the old rule still holds: if it bleeds, it leads.
Now, despite all that media coverage and public focus, what areas people may not be paying attention to—places that you might be more attuned to—where you could say, “Hey, this deserves more attention”? This was a win.
Greene: Yes. I spend much time thinking and talking about fearmongering—in all forms of media, as well as in nonprofits and advocacy organizations that love to send panicked headlines like “This emergency is happening right now! If you don’t donate and sign your name on this list, you’re the only one who can save our campaign.”
Fearmongering is everywhere. That’s why I decided to start my publication called Good Queer News, which focuses on stories of hope that people are likely not hearing. I’ll give you an example.
In the U.S., various advocacy organizations and journalists try to report on the number of anti-trans bills proposed each year. Sometimes, it feels like those organizations compete to claim the highest number.
“We’re tracking 850 anti-trans bills!”
“We’re tracking 1,000!”
They want to be cited by as many mainstream sources as possible. Then, I get many calls from parents and transgender people—because of my role in the mental health space—saying, “I’m so afraid. There are so many bills. This is horrifying.”
But those numbers do not always tell the whole story. For example, in Missouri, we had eight identical anti-trans sports bills, each proposed by different lawmakers who just wanted their names on them. Other bills were entirely performative or had no realistic path to becoming law.
This year, Missouri was reported as one of the worst states for anti-trans legislation, with numbers like “50 bills” or “70 bills” being tossed around. But here at the statehouse, we’re focused on about four that are of genuine concern. The problem is, when people hear “50,” they become so demotivated that they don’t have the energy to show up for the four that matter.
There’s good news constantly. In the past week in the U.S., we had three major court victories. For example, Governor Janet Mills of Maine—her administration sued the Trump administration after they cut USDA funding without due process, essentially as retaliation because she embarrassed him at a dinner. She refused to enforce the sports ban and said, “I’m not doing this.”
We also saw the blocking of the military ban and other discriminatory restrictions. These stories rarely make the headlines the way bad news does. But advocates have fought for so many incredible victories—every week, we see legislative and court wins. And it saddens me that people often do not hear about them.
They feel defeated, and that lack of hope keeps them from engaging and being part of the change.
Jacobsen: The older Noam Chomsky has noted that the surest way to guarantee the worst happens is to do nothing.
Greene: Nothing is guaranteed to succeed, but effort is necessary. Doing nothing certainly does not help. Yeah—it can feel like a full-time job sometimes.
Jacobsen: So, I’ll include something relevant here. I’m thinking more about its underlying logic.
The axing of Roe v. Wade in 2022 via the Dobbs decision brought us into a post-Roe, Dobbs world. That decision effectively left the issue to the states.
Now, things are arguably easier when handled at the federal level—especially in terms of legal access to abortion. Yet, there can be strengths if you’re forced to reframe your strategy toward a state-based policy setup. It’s more difficult, obviously, and in many ways heartbreaking—but it also forces creativity.
Are there issues around state autonomy that could be more challenging and present opportunities to draw strength?
Greene: We’re seeing a lot of that right now. Republicans have spent the last four years—and much longer—arguing that abortion should be a states’ rights issue. “States should have the right to choose.” But as soon as they’re in power, they’re saying, “You don’t get to make laws about gender-affirming care or abortion access.”
Now that they hold power, it is no longer about states’ rights but their ability to control. That’s why many state attorneys general are currently suing the Trump administration over its attacks on gender-affirming care and reproductive health.
The federal government is making broad, largely ego-driven attempts to dictate state policy—policy areas they previously insisted should be decided by individual states. So it’s not a consistent or principled framework they’re following. That’s the thing.
What they’re doing is deploying shadow-puppet arguments—narratives funded again by this network of Christian nationalist groups who are willing to say anything to get the public on board with their agenda.
Many people might not even realize the religious component behind it. For example, they’ll say something like, “We just need to talk about charter schools,” without mentioning that this is their best route for funnelling public funds into religious education. Or they’ll say, “We need to protect girls’ sports,” without acknowledging that the real goal is to ban trans people from public life.
So it’s a “say whatever we need to say” strategy.
It’s about states’ rights—until a state does something they do not like.
It’s about freedom—until it means a choice they disagree with.
It’s about parental rights—until a parent wants something they do not support.
It is logically inconsistent. The more time I spend at the Missouri Capitol, the more I have to accept that we are not fighting on a battlefield of logical consistency.
Jacobsen: Side question. As a foreigner, does “Missouri,” as I’m pronouncing it, accurately reflect the local dialect? Is it Missouri or Missourah?
Greene: Some people say Missourah. It depends on where you go. The more rural the area, the more you’ll hear Missourah. In the cities, most people say Missouri. You can say either and get away with it.
Jacobsen: Are there a lot of conspiracy theorists, white nationalists, and Christian nationalists in Missouri?
Greene: Yes—and I can give you a good example.
I was attending a hearing personally. It was a bill proposing a wide range of attacks on transgender people in public life—banning us from bathrooms and locker rooms, segregating prisons by so-called “biological sex,” and redefining sex as assigned at conception—which is not at all how biological sex works.
A transgender doctor was testifying and said, “Hey, I learned a lot in medical school. Here’s how biological sex works. What you’re saying is completely incorrect.”
One of the senators responded: “I don’t like how you’re speaking to me. I don’t care about what you learned in school.”
And then he said, quote: “I don’t care about doctors. I don’t care about science.”
“I care about one thing—the Word. The Word of God says that God created male and female, and that’s it.”
When the doctor pushed back, saying, “I believe in something called the separation of church and state,” the senator laughed at him, turned red, and began shouting. He said, “I need to make laws based on the morals that guide me. We have nothing as a society if I don’t have those morals. We need to follow the standard that God sets and Jesus Christ.” And he went on a five-minute rant—there is a video of it—about how he needs to govern based on the principles of his God.
Which, notably, we are not supposed to do here. We have some big old rules about that.
So yes, Christian nationalism is very much thriving—especially here in Missouri—but also the federal government and several other state governments.
Jacobsen: Wow. I mean, that certainly raises flags across the atheist community, the secular humanist community, the non-theist Satanist community, the Satanic Temple—in other words, the Unitarian Universalists, the Ethical Culturalists. I think these are all part of a kind of philosophical mosaic of groups that primarily focus on the dangers of Christian nationalism.
Even the Unitarians—who tend to get along with everyone—probably take issue with Christian nationalists.
Greene: Yeah. And they’re right to call out these movements’ lack of logical consistency.
You hear arguments like, “We want to put the Bible in schools. We want to start each day in public school with a state-mandated prayer.” And when someone says, “Okay, would we also be allowed to do a Muslim prayer? Or a Jewish prayer?” the response is immediate and dismissive: “Well, no. We can’t indoctrinate kids with that.”
It’s not about freedom of religion—it’s about the freedom to force you to follow my religion.
And that’s a very different thing.
Jacobsen: The arguments are often framed around different sets of values: transcendentalist, traditional religious ethics—as found in the Christian Bible, interpreted selectively and literally—and those that are more universalist and secular because they do not favour any one religion and often fall under the broader heading of human rights.
In simplified terms, the two guiding principles here are particularist ethics on the one hand and universalist ethics on the other. So—which one do you think is winning out in the United States? Universalist frameworks like human rights, or particularist ones, like the gentleman who gave that five-minute rant?
Greene: I think the particularist frameworks have found the ability to lie freely—because they are not trying to win on logic.
They are very open in their appeals: “If you want to be a feminist, you need to protect women with us.”
“To be a good parent, you must protect children with us.”
They have found some very sneaky ways to convince people this is not a religious call—even though it is. And I have seen plenty of examples where they refuse to protect women or children when those very groups are asking for protection.
Take Missouri, for example. We are number three in the country for domestic violence. But that is not their focus. Their focus is on protecting women from an imaginary threat.
So they are very effective at riling people up.
But I do think, at the end of the day, the universalist ethic—like the idea that every human deserves the freedom to exist safely as they are, to be respected as they are—is winning out. More people feel that way, especially if you remove some of the trigger words.
For example, if we say, “Let’s not talk about sports right now because there’s much misinformation there,” or “Can we start with the idea that everyone deserves basic respect?”—most people will agree.
So yes, there is much money, much power, and much intentional deception behind the movement trying to say transgender people should not be allowed in public life. Big flashy lights, emotional baiting. But I think they will ultimately lose.
This is the screed of a cornered animal—a dying class of people afraid of losing the power they once thought they had.
Jacobsen: Ben, it was lovely to meet you. Thank you very much for your time and expertise.
Greene: Yes, it’s great to meet you, too! Let me know if you have any other questions.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/17
Matt Galuppo, Chair of Media Arts at the New York Film Academy in Los Angeles, discusses the evolving landscape of animation, visual effects, and game design. He emphasizes the need for passion and adaptability in a rapidly changing industry shaped by AI, shifting studio models, and a growing demand for diverse voices. Galuppo advocates for bottom-up educational leadership, values real-world experience, and sees liberal arts as essential to storytelling. The conversation explores work-life balance, career pivots, and the enduring human element in creative work—offering insights for emerging artists and professionals seeking meaning and longevity in media arts careers.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So today, we’re here with Matt Galuppo. He is the Chair of Media Arts at the New York Film Academy’s Los Angeles campus. He oversees programs in 3D Animation, Visual Effects, and Game Design. His professional background spans major studios and independent projects. His credits include Inception, work for brands like Lexus and Toyota, collaborations with Riot Games and Netflix, and contributions to the Emmy Award-winning series Tab Time.
Galuppo specializes in animation, visual effects, and game development, offering students practical training rooted in current industry practices. He brings expertise in platform-specific workflows, storytelling through visual media, and emerging technologies such as AI. While many of his interviews touch on artificial intelligence, we will focus on broader topics today.
His work in education emphasizes career development, skill mastery, and preparing students to contribute meaningfully to an evolving entertainment landscape. Is all of that correct?
Matt Galuppo: Wow, that’s a great bio—I should use that for my résumé.
Jacobsen: Today’s thematic question is: How do arts professors guide young creatives in navigating the industry and amplifying diverse voices? A good first step would be understanding the concept of industry standards. In your field, how are industry standards set?
Galuppo: That depends on the context—whether you’re working in games, animation, filmmaking for theatrical releases, or immersive and experiential media. The studio or client typically sets the deliverables through a quality assurance (QA) process. That’s the nuts-and-bolts aspect: ensuring your work passes departmental reviews and meets expectations at each production stage.
The other side is more intangible. Early in your career, you constantly check whether you meet industry standards. That means asking questions—are you using the correct formats? Are your files compliant? If you’re a writer, is your copy aligned with brand and legal requirements?
You’ve probably experienced this as a writer: you compare yourself to others, ask questions, and seek feedback. Eventually, with experience, you push the envelope; over time, you may even help define new standards.
Whether you’re creative or technical, who sets the benchmarks for your work influences you.
Jacobsen: In the AI and startup spaces, there’s a prevalent “work-until-you-drop” culture where balance is often undervalued. I came across a quote today by Venki Ramakrishnan, a 2009 Nobel Laureate in Chemistry, who said, “If you’re working nonstop all the time, you will burn out.” Is there any emphasis in your work culture on maintaining a healthy work-life balance?
Galuppo: Notoriously, animation and game design have a big problem with work-life balance. And there’s this added tax you’re expected to pay: you’re working on “cool” things. You’re doing stuff that everyone else wants to do—so you have to work harder to be the one doing it.
As we speak, major companies are starting to crumble. Last year, it was mostly in games; this year, it’s hitting animation and visual effects. Technicolor went under.
Technicolor—the company behind The Wizard of Oz—went under. They had tens of thousands, probably around 15,000 employees. They owned The Mill, MPC, and Mikros Animation.
They owned all these major studios working on incredible projects. And it is not controversial to say that it was probably half mismanagement and half due to a culture that has become unsustainable—especially in terms of how these projects are made and what companies value in the people making them.
Right now, I would say that for students coming up and considering work-life balance, it’s not only about what you do—it’s about who you are.
Places now aren’t just hiring the portfolio; they’re hiring the person, and that part—the person—is not fungible.
You embody this quality as a creative, and all your life experience away from the screen, away from making pixels, contributes to it. That quality is ascending right now.
We’re seeing the old-school mentality—the higher-ups saying, “I know what’s best,” dictating where the line goes and how to execute the art—start to fade.
The hope is that we’ll see the artists themselves valued as individuals. If I were a betting person, I’d place my bet on the ones holding on and adapting. There will be much more thoughtful evaluation moving forward.
Jacobsen: Right. There’s been a trend, particularly among younger Boomers, Gen X, Gen Y, and women, of increasing levels of education, qualifications, and work experience—alongside bringing a different set of values to the workplace.
Compared to a small percentage of men, many emphasize work-life balance more. Gen Z appears to be continuing that trend—investing in education and credentials—especially among women, who are looking not just for work but for a balanced life. Suppose you want to retain that kind of talent in the industry. What can employers do to offer meaningful enticements and incentives?
Galuppo: Oh man, it’s a buyer’s market for employers right now. They shouldn’t be too worried.
You’re catching me at an interesting moment. If you’d asked that same question two years ago, there was a shortage of people. Now, there are too many of them. And that’s not because we trained too many—studios are buying less.
The streaming wars are taking a different turn. Creative management is rethinking how it does things.
And to a lesser—but not insignificant—extent, AI is on the horizon. We’ve been using AI tools for a decade, but now it’s arriving in a way we haven’t seen before. There’s been a lot of upheaval, and for better or worse, it’s falling on the individual artist.
So, if you ask, “How can these places entice people like me or others?” The unsatisfactory answer is that they don’t need to right now.
So I’ll reframe the question: how can these places entice the artists needed for a healthy industry? And the answer starts with recognizing the artist as an individual, not just a button-pusher. That perception is beginning to fade—not that artists were ever just button-pushers, but that’s how they’ve often been seen from the top down.
These tools will empower individual artists to contribute significantly to final products. In the past, an artist might only create a few seconds of a tentpole project. Now, they can produce entire sequences, so their creative ownership needs to increase.
To support that, you need them out in the world, experiencing life—so they can bring those experiences back into their work.
It’s a bit cliché, but think of Disney and Pixar’s famous field trips. They’d say, “You’ve spent too much time staring at a screen—we need to get you out diving the Great Barrier Reef,” or “We need you visiting Colombia for Encanto.”
I hope there will be more of that—but not necessarily company-mandated. It should be culturally encouraged.
Jacobsen: You also touched on the role of education—or, more broadly, professional training. Whether someone has a degree directly relevant to the industry or something more tangential, many also build a track record of continuing education—taking edX courses, Coursera, and so on.
Galuppo: Yes, those are two different things. And I might be early with this prediction, but I think liberal arts degrees will resurface.
If you’d asked me this a while ago, I would have said it all comes down to who you are as an artist—what’s in your portfolio and reel. I’d look at your work and say, “Okay, this is who you are.”
But now, you asking me this question is making me rethink it. You mentioned my Inception credit—that’s wild. That was the first thing I ever worked on in Hollywood.
I was a carpenter on it—not a visual effects artist or anything like that. That’s how I started.
Jacobsen: These roles count. I’ve been a janitor and a stall mucker. I’ve dealt with human waste, horse waste—you name it.
Galuppo: Yes, and that counts. I loved being a carpenter. I was a set carpenter for Inception, working for a studio that no longer exists—New Deal Studios.
Jacobsen: I should be including that kind of story in all of these interviews.
Galuppo: Honestly, it’s a good idea. Those experiences matter. It’s an interesting place to start.
Jacobsen: It’d be like interviewing Jensen Huang now and thinking, “Wow, look at him.” Sure, he revolutionized computing 30 years ago, and now it’s all come to fruition—but he talks candidly about starting as a dishwasher. I was a dishwasher, too. I’m sure you were something like that at some point.
Galuppo: I wasn’t a dishwasher—no. But I was the equivalent in a shop. I was the guy who swept everything up, cleaned, organized.
Jacobsen: Right—sweeping the warehouse.
Galuppo: Yes, exactly. I started in shops pretty young.
Jacobsen: Not to say you were any good at it—it’s just that you did it. I can’t say I was great at sweeping warehouses, being a dishwasher, janitor, or shovelling horse manure, but I did it. It paid the bills.
Galuppo: It was one of those early shops where it was pretty much sweeping. They were trying to teach me to weld and do other things to make me more useful on the side, but mainly, I was cleaning up after the people doing the work.
And I swear this story has a point. The technical director of that shop graduated from Caltech with a master’s degree in liquid and thermodynamics. He was a smart guy. How did he end up in a scene shop? He said it was after the Cold War.
He told me, “Oh, they didn’t need engineers anymore. All the defence contracts dried up. There was a glut of engineers. The only place I could get a job was in the arts.” And now we’re about to hit a point where it will be, “Oh, I don’t need as many sophisticated tools, operators and craftsmen—I need people who understand the humanities and the liberal arts.”
Jacobsen: That’s a good point.
Galuppo: Yes, we can flesh that out.
Jacobsen: The first thing that comes to mind is that you can have sophisticated script-building technology based on prompts, maybe even some visual storyboarding that gets built and filled out. But you might still need the humanities to build a proper story—even with the assistance of those technologies. Is that what you’re getting at?
Galuppo: Yes, and it will go even weirder than that.
Something that wasn’t mentioned earlier—my most recent work is as an animation and visual effects supervisor for TCL, the world’s largest television manufacturer.
I work for part of their research group, and we’ve been developing many tools and AI-driven content. One thing we arrived at quickly is: if there’s not a human core, why are people watching it?
Audiences don’t care otherwise. Early on, everyone planted their flag with, “This needs to be written by a human.” The knowledge that it comes from a human core matters to viewers. Not only does it need to be written by a human—the voice, at the very least, must be fully human—hopefully more.
We’re now experiencing that we should accelerate other parts of the process, not the spontaneity of an actor’s performance.
Because what I’m connecting with is the actor—and I say this as someone with an animation background. I do feel the human hand behind animated characters.
More people work on animated characters than on one actor’s live performance.
So, we’re seeing that there are certain third rails of art that you cannot touch. You need to leave them human, or audiences will disengage.
That’s what we’ve been seeing from the AI perspective—whether it’s scriptwriting, as you mentioned, or moment-to-moment performance.
Can AI get there? I don’t know. It’s moving faster than I thought, and I’ve been 100% professionally immersed in it, leading and building teams around it.
And still, I don’t have a clear answer.
But I do think that if there’s going to be something that holds value, it’s going to be the “unapplicable” part—the study of the humanities and the liberal arts.
I could be wrong. I could be wrong.
Jacobsen: Could you imagine a near-medium future where an entire industry—not necessarily tied to any one country like Hollywood or Bollywood—is almost entirely built and operated by artificial intelligence? Like a “Robollywood” or something?
Galuppo: Oh, whoa, that’s funny. The AI part—that’s interesting. I was assuming you meant something like virtual studios. All these virtual studios are popping up, so will an “AI studio” exist? However, AI studios would be connected only by their use of generative technologies.
I might use something more specific than “AI” here. I will separate large language models from this answer because I’m not as expert in them as I am in generative tools.
Will there be—man, do tax incentives still exist in that world? If tax incentives exist, I can’t imagine studios not figuring out how to exploit them.
So, there’s a local draw using Canada, New Mexico, or Louisiana—places with these different incentives. Whatever you can do virtually, you can do better on location when there’s a tax incentive. And this has been around for decades.
So, in a strange way, governments are stopping the industry from becoming fully virtual and disconnected because it provides such a boost—sometimes up to 40%—that significantly increases production capacity.
Unless those incentives disappear, I do not see the system becoming completely virtual, decentralized, and location-agnostic.
Jacobsen: Those are less like tax incentives and more like financial subsidies.
Galuppo: Yes, financial subsidies—absolutely.
Jacobsen: For non-virtual work.
Galuppo: Yes. But you still get the subsidy if you put your workers in those regions. So you’re incentivized to move beyond virtual. Now, it is a lot to fly people out, which is what many companies still do. They fly the artists in, house them, and still make it work.
Jacobsen: Deployment and delivery.
Galuppo: Yes, exactly.
I’ll add that —this might work in reverse.
I was working with someone—we were talking about this earlier—a Belarusian by way of Poland. He made an amazing music video using generative technologies.
It was in Belarusian, which he told me is spoken natively by about 10 million people. He made it for a local artist and said, “There’s no way this would be useful or marketable in a mainstream global way.”
So, rather than this being a universal cultural product that spreads through the “Mimasphere,” I think these tools allow people to become hyper-specific with their local cultures in ways they never could before.
So that’s my non-tax incentive answer.
My tax incentive answer remains: I do not see them going away.
Jacobsen: If this landscape diversifies to the point where a lot of the basic drudgery can at least be assisted—if not done outright—by automated systems, algorithms, and the like, then it could flatten the talent landscape.
It could allow many more people to enter the field. Could there be various forms of incentive to bring in a wider palette of people from different backgrounds? Educationally, through more diverse knowledge networks—people trained in ways not traditionally recognized in the field?
Galuppo: I love the words. Well, “the specific is universal,” as the saying goes. So, being diverse and more specific helps tremendously from any artist’s point of view.
Sometimes, when a lot of people are working on something, there’s a temptation to make it universal. But lowering the barrier to entry for these tools helps.
Weirdly, lowering the barrier to entry to these tools has shown us that suddenly, yes, you don’t need to know how to roto because AI will be much better at rotoscoping.
You don’t need to know how to paint out individual objects because these AI tools—machine learning tools—are much better at that, too.
So, what’s considered valuable is shifting.
Now the question becomes: what is valuable?
Is it your worldview?
Is it your upbringing?
Is it what you identify with?
Is it all those fundamental things that make you human?
Is that what’s valuable? Or is it something else that we don’t yet recognize as valuable?
Are we heading toward a world where logistics managers become the next Scorsese because they’re so good at pipeline management that they can direct an entire team of AI creative agents?
I do not know.
I do not think managing AI agents—or having what some people call enough—I’ve heard this argument: that taste will be the new differentiator. We’ll have an ocean of AI-generated content, and someone with good taste will know which ones are worth keeping.
But it’s beyond taste.
I believe that vision still matters—the kind that comes from lived experience and learning.
If I understand your question correctly, you’re asking if there are things outside the humanities that could make someone a great storyteller.
And the answer is yes.
Using Moneyball as an example, it took someone trained in economics to uncover that story and make it compelling.
So, by lowering the threshold for participation in the visual arts, we’re allowing people with more technical backgrounds to enter the space and tell stories that they find meaningful and that others find meaningful, too.
So yes. Yes. I hadn’t thought about it that way before, but absolutely.
Jacobsen: We can frame traditional questions about diversity within the intellectual framework of the current administrative era.
So, let’s say you’re considering an applicant or a prospective colleague who is trans or who may identify as bisexual, lesbian, gay, or intersex. That is part of how they present and live—meeting or exceeding the program’s standards.
From a cultural standpoint in the workspace, what practices or leadership habits have you found helpful for colleagues or new entrants to feel more accepted and fully realize—not just optimize—their potential?
Because that is how you get the full charge of their talents and knowledge.
Galuppo: Wow, man. Great question.
I’m going to start with professors—answering from that perspective—and then circle back to applicants or students.
I would boil it down to leadership. I’m a big proponent of bottom-up leadership, empowering professors to lead.
I believe in offering everyone leadership opportunities. And sometimes, that is not always offered or expected, particularly in the groups you mentioned.
I’m thinking of one professor in particular. When we gave them a leadership opportunity, something amazing happened.
I give every professor, in various ways, leadership opportunities by asking, “Hey, if you were king of the forest, how would you do this? Is there something you want to take ownership of? Is there something there?”
And that’s important with anyone who shows a spark of something.
But in terms of how you define diversity, I’m thinking of a couple of professors in particular—if they’re given a leadership opportunity, it’s the best way to ignite a fire in them, to get the most out of them, and for them to give the most back to the students—and to everything.
It’s counterintuitive to say, “Hey, as a leader, delegate leadership, too.”
But yes—and they’ll do things in ways you never would have imagined. They’ll run meetings differently. And it’s exciting to see. So that’s what we’ve been doing.
That’s my quick answer for professors who show great merit, especially those who may come from different backgrounds. I might not be the most effective leader for every group, so let’s see how others lead, support that, and take the best ideas to roll out across the board.
It’s a typical bottom-up leadership model, but people don’t always think to apply it to diversity.
For applicants—and NYFA in general—we pride ourselves on providing value-added education.
Across my career and various shows, I’ve been a big believer in my students—not just NYFA students but students everywhere I’ve taught. I’ve brought them onto shows.
Throughout my career, I’ve hired about 20 NYFA students. On Tab Time, which you mentioned earlier, my lead animator and technical director were NYFA students.
How do you find, support, or elevate diverse voices in less diverse fields?
Visual effects certainly have issues with that.
I wish we had a better entry-point solution than saying, “Let everyone in and teach.”
But again—it’s the professors who make it work.
Early in my career, I spoke with one of the few women who was a visual effects or previsualization supervisor. This was in a prior phase of my career.
She told me how few women were in previsualization, and that’s why she took the lead position—she said, “I’m doing this to show people that women in previsualization can lead.”
So, when it comes to applicants, I believe it starts with hiring professors who match the necessary talent and reflect what students need to see—so they can see themselves in the industry’s future.
That takes much work. You have to make sure the faculty reflects the student population in terms of identity and has the skills because, at the end of the day, this is a highly competitive industry. It takes much extra work in recruiting.
And my son’s not American. In the U.S., I’ve noticed this strange push-pull between divisive and unifying language.
Jacobsen: The unifying frame is that every American is concerned about merit. How do they define it? That’s where the division lies. So—anyway, what else can I ask about?
Galuppo: If you were to look at the industry now, there are enough artists to fulfill the work needed. That wasn’t the case a couple of years ago.
So now the question is: who are the artists clinging on?
What’s the edge that allows someone to stay in? And honestly—I don’t know.
Jacobsen: I would hope it’s about who you are. That unifying versus divisive framing was interesting—I’d have to think more about that.
I know one thing that does not cling on to your staying power: being a Vulcan.
Galuppo: Ha! Yes. I was going to say—that this will be a Star Trek moment.
Jacobsen: So, to move us along, what are the trends shaping the future of animation and VFX education?
Galuppo: Oh, man. I struggle with this all the time. I’ll keep it short because AI-generated tools are the big boogeyman in the room.
And how long or interesting can I be on that since I’ve spent so much time on it already? It’s everything I said before.
But again, the great unknowns are this: pipelines are reinventing themselves.
The idea of “tentpole” projects is fading.
Some people are saying it’s going to be like the 1970s again—smaller t, with ams doing really interesting stuff.
Others say TV is dying off, especially as the streaming wars shape it.
I don’t know if TV will come back or if we’ll move more toward feature films.
Instead of seeing ten $100 million blockbusters, we might start seeing twenty or thirty $50 million or $10 million projects.
The audience decides what’s interesting. Still, studios must put work in front of audiences to make it interesting.
I’m thinking of things like ReelShorts and DramaBox—these mobile-first platforms.
They’re making billions in revenue. They’ve replaced the Hallmark Channel with romantic comedies.
They’re not what a cinephile would call “well executed,” but they’re performing incredibly well, which shows that audiences are hungry for content.
You need to pay attention, tell stories they care about, and help them see themselves reflected in those stories.
So, I’m interested to see how that evolves.
Rather than seeing emerging technologies as the enemy, maybe we can recognize that some outdated practices needed to be shaken up—and AI became the excuse.
It took these developments to trigger real change.
Jacobsen: Nevertheless, there are still places where nuance is difficult to replicate with technology. I’ve tried the show From—have you heard of it?
Galuppo: No.
Jacobsen: It won an award for best horror series or something like that. One of the actors is from the Matrix films—not one of the leads, but a notable character. Harold Perrineau. He’s 61 now—he was much younger in the Matrix days. He played Link.
Now, in From, he plays a character named Boyd. It’s a mystery-box show—you get clues and fragments but don’t know what’s going on until the end. It’s like Lost. You can try plugging in various data points, and yes, an LLM or another analytical tool could help—but they’re structured in a way where you still can’t fully decode it.
So, people can design shows that maintain that core human element of surprise, even in the face of increasingly sophisticated analytical systems. There’s still room in entertainment for awe, shock, and surprise.
Galuppo: That’s promising. It’s from MGM, of all places. As you can probably tell, I have two young kids, so I’m not allowed to watch anything other than children’s programming. But this one looks really cool. I’m going to have to check it out. I’ll get back to you about it.
Jacobsen: They’ve done three seasons, and we still don’t know what’s happening.
Galuppo: So—it’s like Lost?
Jacobsen: Yep. The creators of Lost made it. John Griffin is the main creator.
Other actors and actresses in the show include Catalina Sandino Moreno, Eion Bailey, David Alpay, Elizabeth Saunders, Shaun Majumder, Scott McCord, Ricky He, Chloe Van Landschoot, Pegah Ghafoori, Corteon Moore, Hannah Cheramy, and others. Avery Conrad is a British Columbian actor, so she’s close to our cohort—one of ours, one British Columbian. Anyway, From is a fascinating show.
So, there’s going to be a lot of guesswork, and eventually, we’ll see these little swirls—whirlpools, really—where the river of progress kind of loops in on itself. At those points, we may find highly productive areas of human activity that automated systems cannot pierce or solve. Like these mystery-box shows.
Galuppo: Yes. It’s interesting to see this done by a major studio. But this quality level is achievable independently very soon. So we could see a lot more experimentation, which is exciting. Experimentation will go through the roof soon. I’ll check that show out.
Jacobsen: Any final words on getting the next cohort of new graduates interested in this field—or those retraining from a different career, either because they’re no longer interested in what they were doing or because, frankly, they ran out of work?
Galuppo: Absolutely. I’ll tell you what I tell a lot of people interested in the field right now: It’s a great time—if you’re passionate about it.
What’s about to happen is that the people who entered this industry because they wanted a “stable job that’s kind of fun”or something halfway between two worlds—I don’t think it’s for them anymore.
You need to be extremely passionate about this. That said, if there was ever a time for a young artist to enter the field, it’s now. The rules are being rewritten. Almost nothing people said in the past still holds.
If you’re young and interested, have stories to tell, or want to be part of something, now is the time. The playing field is being levelled. You don’t have to line up behind people like we all had to for the past two decades.
So yes, it’s a little chaotic—but it’s also full of opportunity. For those considering a career pivot, it depends on where you’re coming from. Would I recommend a career change into this space? It depends.
Now is a good time if you’re young and this is your dream. You can capitalize on the moment and see things with a fresh perspective—ways that are hard to see if you’ve already been shaped by a different system. For the career pivot crowd, it depends on your background and where you want to go.
I’ve spent most of my career below the line. I’ve directed a few things—for Comedy Central, Syfy, Netflix—but that’s not where the bulk of my income or work has been. It’s been telling other people’s stories. And right now, how people help tell other people’s stories is changing—fast.
It’s exciting if you’re young and just jumping in—but it can be a bit scarier if you’re mid-career and looking to pivot. That being said, storytelling and the fundamentals of how stories are told—I do not see that changing. It hasn’t changed much in a century. Honestly, you could argue that it has not changed in centuries. I would be surprised if it changed now.
CG, visual effects, and everything related has only existed for forty—maybe thirty—years, at most. So yes, it’s more volatile. Game design has been around since the ’70s, and if you’ve been in the scene long enough, you’ve seen the full arc: team triumphs.
Jacobsen: It’s like old teen dramas to even the rare but tragic teen implosions. “Romeo, Romeo—where art thou Romeo?” But Marvel “What if…” with zombies.
Galuppo: That structure hasn’t changed much either. Honestly, even Shakespeare may have been parodying and poking fun at the tropes of his time. So, in that sense, nothing has changed.
That’s my nuance between the two worlds: it’s exciting if you’re young, but if you’re considering a career pivot, you must be more cautious about where you’re stepping. It depends on what you’re stepping into.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Matt, it was nice to meet you.
Galuppo: Thanks, Scott.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/16
Nandini Mazumder, Assistant Coordinator at the Asia Safe Abortion Partnership (ASAP), works to advance safe, legal, and accessible abortion services across Asia. Through initiatives like the Youth Advocacy Institute and the ASAP Academy, she focuses on building rights-based education, youth leadership, and intersectional advocacy. Mazumder highlights the critical role of medical abortion pills, such as mifepristone and misoprostol, in ensuring safe procedures even where abortion is restricted. She addresses global funding inequalities, the need for grassroots initiatives, and the importance of multilingual resources. Her work emphasizes collective, community-based action to strengthen reproductive rights and ensure equitable healthcare for marginalized groups.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are joined by Nandini Mazumder, Assistant Coordinator at the Asia Safe Abortion Partnership (ASAP). ASAP is a regional network committed to advancing safe, legal, and accessible abortion services across Asia. With over 16 years of experience in the development sector focusing on gender and reproductive rights, Mazumder is pivotal in coordinating advocacy efforts, capacity-building programs, and youth engagement initiatives. She is also a lead trainer at the ASAP Youth Advocacy Institute, where she empowers young advocates and professionals through rights-based education. Her work emphasizes the importance of inclusive healthcare, addressing systemic barriers, and ensuring that marginalized communities, including queer and transgender individuals, have equitable access to reproductive services. Mazumder actively critiques global anti-abortion movements, highlighting their impact on countries like India, and is dedicated to fostering healthcare systems that respect the dignity and autonomy of all individuals. Thank you for joining me today. To begin, what are some crucial points to understand about abortion access in the current context?
Nandini Mazumder: Even in countries where abortion is legally restricted, safe abortion is still possible because today, medical technologies — particularly medical abortion pills — are highly effective and widely available.
Medical abortion pills, specifically mifepristone and misoprostol, were developed in the 1980s. Mifepristone (also known as RU-486) was first approved in France in 1988 for use in abortion. Misoprostol was initially designed and marketed in the late 1970s by a U.S. company to treat gastric ulcers. In countries like Brazil, where abortion was highly restricted, women discovered that misoprostol could safely induce abortion. The increased access to misoprostol contributed to a notable decrease in maternal mortality due to unsafe abortions.
This historical experience demonstrates that legality does not necessarily determine Safety. Safety depends on access to the proper methods and information. Even where abortion is illegal, people will seek abortions — but without safe methods, the risks are higher. Therefore, we advocate for recognizing that abortion can be completely safe when done correctly, following World Health Organization (WHO) guidelines.
Today, no one should have to risk their life due to lack of access to safe abortion methods, even if abortion remains legally restricted in their country. However, restrictive laws make it harder to access medications like mifepristone and misoprostol or to find safe clinical services. In this sense, legality is a barrier to access, but Safety is achievable from a medical standpoint.
In my role at ASAP, I work with a small core team of about four to five people. We operate regionally across Asia and engage globally through our country networks. We have 8 Country Advocacy Networks in Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Indonesia, Nepal, Pakistan, Sri Lanka and Vietnam, and partnerships in various other countries. As a network we focus on building movements for safe abortion rights and strengthening youth leadership across the region and globally.
We work with a lot of different communities, organizations, and movements. Our movements need to be intersectional and inclusive. Therefore, we strongly support the rights of allied movements such as the sex workers’ rights movement, the rights of women who use drugs, the rights of people with disabilities and particularly with the deaf and hard of hearing community, and, of course, the LGBTQI community — they are a vital ally for us. We work with a range of people, aiming to understand the issues they face while also exploring the intersections with safe abortion rights.
My role as Assistant Coordinator involves working very closely with our Coordinator, Dr. Suchitra Dalvie. She is a gynecologist by profession and has been working in the field of safe abortion rights for over twenty-five years. She co-founded ASAP (Asia Safe Abortion Partnership) in March 2008. I have been working with ASAP since November 2019.
We are a small core team but deeply committed, dedicated, and passionate team striving to make the safe abortion movement stronger, more intersectional, and geographically more widespread. All of us take turns training. Dr. Suchitra Dalvie is one of the lead trainers. We also have another lead trainer, Dr. Manisha Gupta, who joins us for different institutes and Academy activities from time to time. I am one of the trainers as well. My colleague Ayesha Bashir is also one of the lead trainers for the Academy and institutes. Additionally, my colleague Mahak manages the online Academy platform and supports the work to strengthen safe abortion rights advocacy and movement building.
Let me share a little more about ASAP’s work. We work extensively with young people, hosting many institutes across the region. We run programs called Youth Advocacy Institutes (YAI) and Youth Advocacy Refreshers (YAR).
In February 2024, we also hosted the only dedicated global safe abortion rights conference, called the Abortion Rights and Reproductive Justice Conference (ARJC). It was the fourth edition of ARJC. The conference was initially created through a partnership between academia and activism, and we continued in that spirit. We hosted it at Mahidol University, a significant public health university in Bangkok, Thailand, in partnership with Thailand’s Ministry of Public Health.
At ARJC 2024, we welcomed around 350 participants from 65 to 70 countries. We recognized that, as there has been an organized attack against safe abortion rights, sexual and reproductive health and rights (SRHR) more broadly, and civil society spaces in general, opportunities for solidarity-building, networking, learning, and sharing have been shrinking. ARJC thus served as a significant space for us.
Moreover, in 2024, we also launched the ASAP Academy, an initiative designed to create more spaces for safe abortion rights advocates to meet, learn from one another, and continue growing stronger as a movement — even amid today’s challenging political climate and the ongoing attacks on our rights.
The ASAP Academy is an online course that is quite intensive—almost like a semester-long college or university-level program. Over three months, participants go through a series of modules. Each module takes about three to four hours to engage with, and participants must complete assignments and join live calls.
The goal is to help people understand the politics of safe abortion rights. It is rooted in feminist politics but also covers technical aspects, aiming to unpack why safe abortion rights remain such a contentious issue today.
We are currently running our third cohort. In 2024, we had two batches, and in 2025, the first batch just started. We have had participants from all over the world, including the U.S., the U.K., Canada, and more remote places like Samoa, Tonga, Fiji, and the Cook Islands. Many participants from Asian countries such as India, Sri Lanka, Pakistan, Bangladesh, and Nepal also join us. We are creating a global community of people who can learn and grow together.
The academy’s online nature allows us to reach a wider audience without needing heavy resource investment, which we do not have. We hope that the Academy will become self-sustaining and continue to thrive over time.
My work involves ensuring this happens smoothly and supporting my team in successfully organizing, coordinating, and delivering the Academy. I do a little bit of everything, working closely with our Coordinator.
Jacobsen: What part of that work gives you the most meaning? Also, if different, what part of that work do you find, even if difficult, is, in objective terms, the most impactful?
Mazumder: I think the Academy and Institute spaces — the learning and knowledge-sharing spaces — give me the most meaning.
Let me share a bit of my background. I studied sociology at Jawaharlal Nehru University (JNU) in New Delhi, and before that, I studied sociology in Calcutta, where I am currently based.
When I entered the workforce, I realized there were many things I did not know and I had to learn on the job. Although my interests were in gender and sexuality, we did not dive deeply into those subjects during my sociology studies. There was virtually no engagement with issues like sex work, and safe abortion rights were not covered at all.
I received one of the best sociology educations available in India, yet there were significant gaps in my knowledge. I learned a lot through my work—learning while doing and filling in those gaps through experience and practice.
As I progressed to a more mid-level position, and even now, when I engage more with younger people, my peers, or even people older than me, I often realize that they know even less—because not everyone has had the sociology training that I did. I realized that knowledge is a very big gap. It is missing from many of our civil society spaces.
There is a fascinating article by Arundhati Roy — the author and political activist — where she discusses how NGOization has become a problem. She describes how what were once traditional movements, protests, and uprisings have been turned into more palatable, depoliticized entities by transforming them into NGOs. Once something becomes a paid profession, you attract all sorts of people. The question becomes: do you hire them for their skills, or do you hire them for their ideological commitment? Ideally, it should be a combination of both in civil society spaces. However, we see that this balance is often missing.
I believe knowledge-building is a crucial area that civil society must address. Safe abortion rights are not something we can discuss in a vacuum. We have learned so much from the reproductive justice (RJ) framework, thanks to Black feminists, mainly in the United States. The RJ framework highlights how access to abortion is linked to broader issues like race, class, citizenship, incarceration, and immigration status.
Access to abortion is a human rights issue — it impacts everyone, whether you are a refugee, an immigrant, a citizen, incarcerated, or free. Why should the state or your personal circumstances determine your ability to access abortion and, consequently, control the rest of your life?
Safe abortion rights should be guaranteed and accessible to everyone — yet they remain heavily controlled and debated. I think that often when we advocate for expanding access, we forget the politics underlying it. Our language can only be as sharp as our political understanding.
Therefore, the Academy and Institute spaces are vital because they build knowledge that sharpens political awareness. They help people understand what we are fighting for and what forces we are fighting against. From that clarity, we can develop more strategic and practical advocacy language.
For me, the most challenging — and the most satisfying — work is the knowledge-building and capacity-building work we do through the Institutes and the ASAP Academy.
Jacobsen: What are the main challenges coming your way internationally regarding feedback and reports? We have touched on many of these points just by considering interpretations of statistics from various countries, but I think a more explicit statement would be essential.
Mazumder: Well, you know, having been at the Commission on the Status of Women (CSW), one of the most interesting things — and I want to begin with this — is the funding challenge. As you know, funding has historically been decided by the Global North. They have access to a larger share and a larger pool of resources, and then they decide how those resources are distributed to countries in the Global South or the political South.
They also decide the reporting formats because they control how funds are streamed down. They determine what we should report on and what is considered worthy of reporting. So, a big challenge is that imbalance.
While we increasingly have conversations about decolonialism and post-colonial reforms, the NGO sector remains a deeply colonial space — in many layers. I am talking about the dynamic between the Global North and South and inequalities within our own countries. Often, the most privileged sections of a country head major organizations and decide how the work happens, while the wisdom, knowledge, and good practices from less privileged or indigenous sections of society are not recognized or tapped into as much as they should be.
More can be done — by all of us — to address these imbalances. I am not just talking about the Western world needing to improve; the same applies within our countries as well.
The current frameworks are not designed to accommodate a diversity of people. They tend to be exclusionary. You need a certain level of technical skill even to apply for funding. Reporting requirements and bureaucratic hurdles come afterward. So, the way we structure funding and accountability needs a rethink.
In many countries we work with, formalizing groups and networks are impossible because of restrictive legal environments. Explaining this reality to funders or policymakers in the political North is very difficult.
Of course, there is corruption — there is no denying that. Corruption exists everywhere, from the highest levels of government to the grassroots. But does that mean we should eliminate all flexibility when working in restrictive environments? That would be unfair and harmful. Without flexibility, we will never be able to form safe abortion rights advocacy networks in countries where the law remains highly restrictive.
Take Sri Lanka, for example, where abortion is only legal under minimal circumstances, or Pakistan and Bangladesh, where increasing religious extremism makes advocating for abortion rights extremely difficult. In such environments, how can we operate? Can we find ways to work more flexibly?
Honestly, a lot of the work we try to do in civil society is constrained by donor regulations that do not allow the flexibility needed on the ground. Still, we try. Sometimes, we get lucky and find donors who understand the realities we face. But most of the time, it is very, very difficult.
Another significant issue is that donors are pulling back—and Asia, in particular, is falling out of favour. I do not know if you noticed this at the Commission on the Status of Women (CSW), but it was stark: representation from Asia was very, very low. Asia is one of the largest regions in the world, with many countries and almost half the world’s population concentrated here.
It is alarming to see such low representation. When I joined, I was told that Southeast Asia was not a significant priority for many donors. We used to have some flexible funding to direct toward Southeast Asia, supporting work in countries like Vietnam and Indonesia.
But places like the Philippines and Indonesia have very restricted environments — particularly around abortion rights. Now, some of our funders have told us they are pulling out of Asia entirely and pulling out of sexual and reproductive health and rights (SRHR) altogether. So, we are facing a double setback: Asia and SRHR are losing donor support.
When we asked if there was any backup plan or anyone else we could contact through them, they could not help. It is concerning because the work becomes purely transactional: you do your job, fulfill your contract, and then leave. What happens to the movement afterward is no longer your concern.
But that is not how I see it. I love my work — not just because it pays my bills, but because it is something I feel deeply connected to. The sector can only remain meaningful if the people within it genuinely believe in its importance.
If we treat civil society spaces like any other professional sector — purely transactional — then I do not think we will be able to withstand the political backlash we are now facing. These are critical issues that we need to reexamine.
Another interesting thing is how people perceive our work based on our location. Because we are based in India, many people assume we only work on issues related to India or only with Indian groups. Some think our expertise is limited to this country or, at best, to the region.
But with the ASAP Academy, we are creating a truly global space. I often have to explain to people that we work globally — and that we provide leadership at the international level as well.
I find it interesting because I do not think someone based in the political North would have to do nearly as much explaining. In the global discourse, the default assumption about who a “global expert” is tends to favour people based in the North.
And who is seen as the “local expert”? Someone based here, in the Global South. That default assumption still exists. So when will that perspective shift? I find that very interesting and frustrating.
But yes, overall, we need to improve how civil society spaces function today. When it comes to medical education, there is a significant issue in delivering accurate information so that people can make informed decisions about their reproductive lives. A lot of the world does not have access to this.
There is a lot of hype right now, but there are also some reasonable conversations around artificial intelligence (AI) and its potential role in education. For example, there are discussions about whether AI could be used to deliver accurate, expert-informed education more quickly and accessibly, particularly to better inform people about issues like reproductive rights.
Jacobsen: Is it possible to use AI, with expert knowledge encoded into it, to make education about these issues more rapidly accessible?
Mazumder: We often discuss this within our group. This is more my perspective, not necessarily an official ASAP position.
I think we need to engage with AI cautiously. I have seen colleagues use AI tools, and I have also seen how the language AI generates can sometimes be factually incorrect or politically insensitive. To leave education entirely to machines without human intervention would, in my view, be catastrophic—especially for marginalized communities.
We must also recognize that the context in Asia is very different. In many Asian countries, most families share a single phone. Smartphones are not as common as we assume. Only certain sections of society or certain parts of the world see smartphones as the default.
There is only one device in many households, and the men in the family often control it. There is a real gender gap in access to digital media and resources. You and I may not face that directly, but most people in many Asian countries do.
Without addressing these fundamental inequalities — without ensuring equitable access to technology first — rushing into AI-based education will not solve the problem. It could exacerbate it. Those who already have privilege and access will benefit more, while marginalized groups will be left even further behind.
So, how do we address the gap? We address it by tackling the root causes of inequity and inequality — that is fundamental.
Secondly, as I said earlier, AI interventions alone will not help. In fact, they might make things even more problematic. Maybe a combination—using AI to aid human intervention rather than replace it—could be effective.
Having a teacher, a mentor, or someone you can interact with—someone whose face you can see or whose voice you can hear—has a more profound impact on the learning process. Learning is not just about what you read. It is about your full range of experiences and interactions while engaging with the material.
It would be unfortunate if we took that away. Instead of saying, “Let us fund public universities, public schools, and public colleges,” if the solution becomes, “Let us just give everybody AI,” that would be very problematic.
Jacobsen: What about setting minimum bars? Even if someone does not have full access to formal education or opportunities, they have access to minimal online educational resources — what, in your view, is the most basic piece of information or knowledge that people should have to make informed decisions about reproductive health?
Mazumder: Correct. Funding more grassroots initiatives and supporting local action is key. For example, at Asia Safe Abortion Partnership, we support eight country-level advocacy networks working very locally in Bangladesh, Bhutan, India, Indonesia, Pakistan, Nepal, Vietnam, and Sri Lanka.
We provide them with small grants, training opportunities, and invitations to attend our Institutes so they can engage deeply with safe abortion rights politics. They then return that knowledge to their home countries and use it for local advocacy and initiatives.
It has worked well. For instance, we work with a cohort of medical students in India. These students are future service providers — or at the very least, they will play a key role in gatekeeping access to safe abortions.
Now, the medical curriculum in India is still incredibly outdated — resembling what was taught in Britain in the 1800s. It is very patriarchal and problematic. Even today, the forensic medicine chapters still mention concepts like “virginity,” which have no scientific basis.
We try to educate these students on accurate, rights-based information. They, in turn, have gone on to create their own educational toolkit—the Abortion Toolkit—to train their peers.
We train a core group within the medical students’ network called ISAY — India Safe Abortion Youth Advocates. These ISAY members then go on to train others. So far, they have trained around 500 of their classmates using what they have learned from ASAP, supplemented by the curriculum they created.
It is inspiring work and ties back directly to your earlier question about ensuring at least a minimum level of accurate, accessible information for people.
What are the challenges we face? Advocacy, as we understand it, is not always about changing the law. In fact, we have increasingly seen that changing the law often changes very little on the ground.
We need to reimagine advocacy. It should be focused on changing people’s minds, creating greater awareness, and building long-term shifts in understanding. And that is a relentless job — it will never be fully completed.
How do we do this? We must work with collectives and communities and fund grassroots initiatives. That is the only way.
To ensure people have even the basic minimum information needed to make better choices about their sexual and reproductive health and rights, we need to work at the community level — with local people by forming collectives, reaching out, and offering training.
This must happen not only online but also in person. The power of in-person meetings and training cannot be replaced. Even in the digital era, in-person engagement will remain crucial.
Perhaps that will be a form of resistance. The digital era increasingly promotes the idea that we are each isolated individuals, accessing information independently through our phones. But there is no guarantee that the information we find is accurate.
That is why human interaction—the opportunity to verify information, discuss, and connect—is essential. We need more funding to support this traditional kind of work, which has sustained social movements for decades and will continue to be necessary for as long as we exist as a species.
At ASAP, we conduct Institutes, run the Academy, and create other initiatives. However, I also do a lot of volunteer work with local NGOs. Wherever they call me—if anyone invites me—I am happy to deliver sessions on these issues.
These sessions make a real difference. Relying solely on online information has significant issues: How do you fact-check it? Second, much of the information is only available in English, making it inaccessible to most of the world’s population.
Offering digital platforms will not solve these problems. We still need very traditional, community-based, human-to-human interactions.
Jacobsen: Just one last thing — did you mention one more initiative ASAP about creating multilingual resources?
Mazumder: Yes, exactly. At ASAP, we are trying to create more resources in multiple languages. For example, we adapted the WHO protocol on medical abortion into a Medical Abortion Fact Sheet. It is available on our website, and we have translated it into several languages, including Mongolian, Mandarin, Arabic, and several others. I can share the link with you.
We are also ensuring that knowledge is accessible and inclusive of communities and in that light we worked with the deaf and hard of hearing communities across Asia and developed SRHR primer videos in sign languages. These videos are pioneering resources that address the critical gap where many basic SRHR terms do not have adequate or equivalent signs. Therefore, we developed these primer videos in sign language to explain basic SRHR terms such as, patriarchy, menstrual health, safe abortions in a simple and fun way, and you can find the videos here – https://asap-asia.org/sign-language/
Jacobsen: Well, Nandini, it was lovely meeting you.
Mazumder: This will be plenty for now.
Jacobsen: Thank you again. I appreciate your time and expertise. It was wonderful to meet you.
Mazumder: Nice to meet you, too, Scott. Thank you so much.
Jacobsen: Take care!
Mazumder: Take care! Bye.
–
Sign Language Videos – https://asap-asia.org/sign-language/
MA Factsheets – https://asap-asia.org/information-booklets/
ASAP Academy – https://asap-asia-academy.org/
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/15
Rayyan Dabbous explores how media framing influences public perception and foreign policy, stressing the importance of peace-oriented discourse and diverse voices. He critiques ideological oversimplifications and highlights Naomi Klein’s Guardian US article as a standout example of effective public engagement. The conversation delves into journalistic responsibility, opinion piece dynamics, and the subtle presence of warmongering across media outlets.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here with Rayyan Dabbous, a PhD candidate at the Centre for Comparative Literature at the University of Toronto. He is a journalist, playwright, and the author of five novels. His academic and journalistic work focuses on media analysis, Middle Eastern politics, and cultural discourse. Dabbous has conducted extensive research on how Canadian opinion journalism shapes public perception and foreign policy, particularly about the Middle East. He advocates for more diverse voices in the media to promote peace and a more nuanced understanding. His work has appeared in major publications and reflects a multidisciplinary approach to literature, politics, and international affairs. So, why did you select the Toronto Star, Globe and Mail, and National Post for your study?
Rayyan Dabbous: I don’t read any of them regularly, to be honest. But they pop up in the news section on my phone, which is generated either by Samsung—since I use a Samsung device—or by Apple, which offers a similar feature. These are the articles that tend to appear on my screen.
The hypothesis I developed at the time interested me, especially throughout the Olympic in 2024, about the Middle East and the amount of coverage coming from Canada about the region. I noticed that the way these articles were being framed—because I saw them almost weekly—was striking. I wasn’t just struck by how many articles were being published and how they were written. These three major outlets—the Toronto Star, Globe and Mail, and National Post—are some of the most influential in Canada.
So, my hypothesis became: What trends were emerging in their coverage? How were they reporting on the Middle East? Often, I’d just read the headline or skim parts of the article. What mattered to me wasn’t always the fine-grained detail—I’ve done that kind of close reading in other media studies—but the broader patterns.
This was my first time writing a study incorporating many facts, figures, and statistics. What is the general effect? Whether we actively read the articles or passively encounter them, what kind of consensus seems to be forming in Canada about the Middle East?
This is something most people don’t think about. They either consume media actively or passively. But there’s a middle ground where you can step back and ask, “What’s going on here?” Is the coverage random? Especially since I’m analyzing opinion pieces—are these spontaneous commentaries without a deeper structure, or is there an underlying logic? That’s something I wanted to explore.
Jacobsen: And you analyzed 365 articles. That’s a substantial number, especially considering you don’t regularly read those publications. It is a one-year study. Why set that as your timeline rather than, say, doing a three-month sample and then comparing across seasons or something similar? Have you thought about comparing seasonal trends?
Dabbous: So, originally, of course, when we hear “Middle East” in Canada, we think of Israel, Palestine, and October 7. Those are usually the dates people think about.
There were many relevant articles from, say, October 7 until the end of 2023. I’ve written about some of those elsewhere. But I thought 2024 was a good choice because it gave journalists some time. Sure, world events happen, and we can get drawn into them—and especially as writers, we feel responsible and want to speak up.
However, three months was a good window for Canadian media to reassess how they report. So it gave them a fair opportunity: okay, I’m starting the analysis on January 1—with Palestine and Israel in mind and the region more broadly.
It is not isolated even when it is not directly about the conflict. For example, if we look at articles about Iran or the Gulf, there are relationships to that conflict. As for your question about seasonal comparisons, I did not see much variation. Sometimes, depending on events—cultural events around Canada or international ones—you might detect a shift.
For instance, you could notice a more cultural tone around the Olympics, even in articles related to the Middle East. Some pieces mentioned Israel in the context of the Olympics—I forget which year that was—but you could see that framing shaping the coverage.
So, I would not say seasonal differences, per se, but yes, there are cultural events in the summer, and in the winter, there is Canada’s election and political season. In those periods, you would see similarities because some articles were about things like a political meeting or a statement by a politician. So, journalists tended to follow that rhythm.
Jacobsen: Which publication—or author within a publication—leaned furthest to the right, and who was most stringent in their left-wing truisms?
Dabbous: First, in my original draft, I had not considered left, right, or center categorizations. Later, with Policy Options, this distinction was added, perhaps to clarify that there are differences between outlets—though I’m personally skeptical of those divisions.
What did I observe in terms of left versus right? It’s hard to say definitively. As I mentioned, I’m skeptical of these classifications. Take The Globe and Mail. The article says it leans slightly more right than the Toronto Star—which I’m not entirely convinced of.
The Globe and Mail’s article output was more thematic. For example, it tended to focus more on experts and think tanks. Ambassadors or former ambassadors would often weigh in as well. That is not necessarily a right- or left-wing orientation. Some political leanings may show up more in certain sectors than others, but that’s more indirect.
The Toronto Star tries to engage more with community voices so that it might include more left-leaning perspectives. But honestly, in terms of output, themes, and content—it was relatively the same across the three.
Even The National Post—although perhaps we can more confidently say it leans more to the right than the other two—I approached them all as individual human beings writing.
These were not robotic news reports. These were opinion pieces—personal voices and expressions. In that sense, the political spectrum was not relevant to the heart of the analysis.
Jacobsen: In analyzing some of this commentary on the Middle East, does the Canadian left-right spectrum match the American left-right spectrum in your experience?
Dabbous: That’s a good question, and it’s worth investigating. I have previously analyzed how the U.S. covers the Middle East. Your inclination might be right—it’s a bit more fleshed out in the U.S., that’s possible.
In Canada, maybe this is also what people tend to think, but the spectrum is much more fluid—where people stand and what they stand for are not necessarily fixed or set in stone. But I can’t give you a definitive answer because I do not know for certain.
Jacobsen: How do you define a peace-oriented op-ed?
Dabbous: Look, so: peaceful article, pacifist article—I was playing around with those terms at some point. What matters is which articles and which writers have peace in mind. Are they mentioning the word itself? Are they proposing solutions that could lead to peace?
Again, the criteria were broad, and I made them broad on purpose because not many articles explicitly mention the word “peace” or other directly related terms.
So my criteria were not limited to whether they called for peace or a ceasefire but also whether they called for tolerance, nuance, people’s calm down, practical solutions—or even if they were pointing out the lack of solutions or imagination. Those were the articles I categorized as a pacifist, calling for peace, or interested in peace.
So yes, the definition was broad. The numbers aren’t bad for The Globe and Mail and Toronto Star. Around two-thirds—Toronto Star had at least two-thirds, and The Globe and Mail came in at 71%.
Had I narrowed the definition of peace, those numbers would have been much lower, and they likely would not have been as indicative—because journalism is not necessarily meant to advocate in direct terms. And also, not all of these articles are about the Palestine-Israel case. Some address events happening elsewhere in the Middle East.
Even some articles about Syria and regime change—you could tell that some were more belligerent, maybe a bit reckless in their wording. Others were quite the opposite: they viewed these developments as opportunities for peace or positive change in the region. That would be an example of the contrast I observed—the Tupac option shifts.
Jacobsen: Why was Naomi Klein’s Guardian US piece such an effective article, particularly regarding high digital engagement? Digital engagement is not guaranteed. You can publish in the largest publications in the world and receive almost no engagement. So that kind of engagement is a key point of skill—a compliment to her.
Dabbous: Yes, absolutely. Great question. This article section was meant to show some differences outside this small Canadian media bubble while still tying it back to Canada—because Klein is, perhaps, our celebrity.
You are right that digital engagement needs to be indicative. Now, digital engagement can mean many things. It could be the comments left on an article. But for me, it was about what people were Googling. If people heard Naomi Klein wrote an article, they would likely Google her. If they read that article, they probably Googled her again. That’s different, of course, from the norm. We’re comparing her with columnists who don’t have that same reach or whose reputations do not precede them. So, there are limitations to that comparison.
Still, to answer your first question—why was it effective qualitatively, beyond the numbers?—it was a strong mix of rhetorical voice and communication strategies. She appeals to our emotions. She appeals to our logic. She situates her argument historically but carefully remains grounded in the present and proposes solutions for today.
I used that article heuristically—as an illustrative example—because Canadian articles published in the three major outlets I studied were often framed as historical or policy-based and political, cultural and divorced from politics, or sometimes humanitarian, moral, or legal in tone. And that, in itself, is a limitation—not only in terms of engagement but also in terms of the issues being explored.
For example, The Globe and Mail—perhaps a big part of its brand identity is that it claims to know the experts and will bring those voices to your phone or iPad. Sure, it is fine to build a brand identity around expert knowledge. But when we are talking about a region that does not always need expertise in political theory or negotiation strategy, sometimes it needs a human voice.
Naomi Klein’s article calls for specific changes, but it does so with a human voice—the entire point of an opinion piece. Otherwise, I have seen some op-eds that could have easily been formal reports or direct recommendations from the think tanks from which the writers come.
Jacobsen: Why were lawyers less likely to advocate for peace based on their interpretation of international law? I assume it’s similar to politicians who’ve only had a career in politics—unlike someone like Bob Rae, who has experience in politics and at the UN. He understands the adversarial nature of politics and the diplomacy and consensus-building approach of the United Nations. It seems lawyers are often trained in a more adversarial mode—because that is what pays the bills.
Dabbous: Good question. So yes, whether I was surprised or not, lawyers scored lower than other professions.
The moment I saw articles referencing the International Court of Justice (ICJ) and the legal cases being brought against Israel—across all three publications—I saw lawyers weighing in. Some agreed and thought it was good for international law to hold Israel accountable. Others argued that there are flaws in the process and that we should rethink these institutions.
Regardless of where one stands on the issue, your inclination is correct. For example, you would expect this adversarial style of argumentation in politics, where the training favours that kind of engagement.
What I am also recommending, though, is self-awareness—that there are certain vocabularies and certain rhetorical strategies that are considered sure and effective ways to address an issue. Sometimes, you need the output of a think tank with its analytical privilege. Sometimes, you need the perspective of a lawyer who has access to laws and their history.
But again, the whole point is that these people—regardless of background—are deciding to be writers. They are deciding, “I want to write an opinion piece.” And that exercise is inherently a point of view, even though structurally, the entire op-ed format encourages a singular point of view.
You see it clearly in submission guidelines: “Submit your opinion pieces or your op-eds.” Newspapers are partially to blame for that. They encourage specificity. They say, “We’re a diverse country, filled with all these perspectives. But to sell your article, we must highlight what’s unique about you.”
Sure, that is effective in practice—because that draws readers in. But if we are serious about writing because an issue matters—we want to find collective solutions—then we start to run into problems when we think too rigidly about specialization.
Jacobsen: One last question—were there some warmongers? And if so, were they about 10%, 5%, or 1%? Warmongers will always exist, but that’s concerning if it’s 20%. If it’s 5%, okay, that’s tolerable.
Dabbous: Now, that’s maybe the most important question—it underpins the whole inquiry. Yes, there were warmongers. I could prove that qualitatively by looking at what they wrote, analyzing the strategies they used, and even quoting some of the lines in those articles. “Peace through war,” “peace through war”—that sentiment echoed. And I chose not to focus the study through that direct lens. I chose a slightly more neutral route without even creating a category for the percentage of warmongers. That would be a great addition, as you suggest.
In any case, to give you more concrete detail, no—it was not an alarming number. Sure, at the National Post, quite a few writers could be described as interventionists. But to be honest, everyone is an interventionist in some way. Even someone advocating for peace is, in a sense, calling for intervention. The difference lies in how you intervene, how far you’re willing to go, and what kind of intervention you propose.
So even at the National Post, I would not say there were significantly more warmongers than at The Globe and Mail or the Toronto Star. At Toronto Star, I can think of one writer—without naming them—whose articles were, in my view, not politically responsible. Not responsible for a writer. Because we write words, and words mean things. Whether or not those words are true is another matter, but at the very least, they carry weight and consequences.
Maybe what’s most striking about this analysis is that—even if you’re interested in how many warmongers there are—the numbers don’t differ much between the publications. And the effects don’t differ much either. One warmonger or one journalist at the Toronto Star who writes regularly—there’s a big difference between a regular columnist and a one-time contributor—that person can have just as much influence as someone at the National Post, even if Canadians already perceive the Post as aligned with a certain ideological stance and therefore might discount it.
However, when someone at The Globe and Mail or Toronto Star writes a similarly forceful piece, it can have a greater impact. We tend to believe it more, for example. That’s the real point. Being a warmonger is not that hard. It doesn’t take writing overtly violent statements. It can come through subtle framing, key sentences or a tone. It just takes the act of writing.
And this is why we are both implicated—as writers. That is a responsibility we share, especially when writing about a region that probably doesn’t need more words spoken about it. Choosing to add more words is a choice—and it’s a tricky one. More words are written about the Middle East than grains of sand in its deserts. So, yes, choosing to write about the region should be an opportunity for reflection, not exploitation.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Thank you. Have fun at work.
Dabbous: Awesome. Thank you, Scott. It’s always a pleasure.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/16
Marwa Dashti, Afghan advocate and co-founder of the Fahim Dashti Foundation, about the devastating state of women’s rights in Afghanistan under Taliban rule. Dashti highlights systemic oppression through bans on education, employment, movement, and public expression, driven by fear of female empowerment. Despite the extreme danger, Afghan women resist through anonymous journalism and quiet defiance. She stresses that the situation is a human rights crisis and a societal collapse. International frameworks help, but change must come from continued global pressure and Afghan resilience. The Foundation stands as a beacon of advocacy, truth, and hope.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: We’re here with Marwa Dashti, Afghan advocate, daughter of the late journalist Fahim Dashti, and co-founder of the Fahim Dashti Foundation, which focuses on press freedom and women’s rights in Afghanistan.
The focus of today’s conversation is the condition of women’s and girls’ rights in Afghanistan. I chose this topic because the contrast between Afghanistan and much of the world is stark, and the regression happened in such a short period. Multiple actors—nation-states and groups—bear responsibility for the current state of affairs. These were not accidents; they were conscious choices.
Yet, even setting that aside, we are left with the very real and dire conditions facing women and girls in Afghanistan today. Within that context, what metaphor, image, or symbolic portrait best captures the reality for Afghan women right now?
Marwa Dashti: For Afghan women, I think right now, many are going through what is understandably a period of deep mental and emotional distress. They have been stripped of their most basic human rights. That kind of trauma takes a toll, especially over time.
However, the most accurate and powerful portrait of Afghan women today is one of resilience. Their strength in the face of everything—the fact that they still hold on to hope, that they continue to resist, to speak out even in whispers, and to process life under this brutal regime—that courage defines them. So yes, the most honest image of Afghan women today is one of strength and defiance against all odds.
Jacobsen: What is the role of journalism in that context? Whether we’re talking about anonymous or pseudonymous guerrilla journalism—those trying to tell difficult stories from the inside—or traditional reporting focused on the Taliban’s public policies and their effects on women and girls, what does journalism look like under such conditions?
Dashti: The contrast between journalism in Afghanistan and the West is enormous. In Western societies, journalism is vital, but here, people can access information through social media and other platforms. Everyone is connected, and many people engage in journalism without realizing it. Even influencers, in their way, can contribute to public awareness—something I’ve said before in interviews. I do think that in today’s media environment, being an influencer can amount to a kind of journalism.
But in Afghanistan, it is completely different. You cannot just openly speak your mind. Freedom of speech does not exist under the Taliban. You cannot critique the government. You cannot expose injustice without risking your life.
And yet, despite the overwhelming danger, some people—especially women—still take that risk. They document what is happening. They share stories. They try to show the world the brutality of the regime: the arrests, the torture, the disappearances, the killings. And they do it anonymously, knowing they will not receive recognition or reward—only risk.
They could be caught. They could lose everything—the very little they have left. And still, they continue.
That, to me, is extraordinary. Without them, we would not know much of what we know about what is happening inside Afghanistan. Their courage is the heartbeat of resistance, and their work is vital for understanding this crisis.
Unfortunately, the news inside Afghanistan is heavily censored by the Taliban. Without independent journalists working in the country, we would receive false or manipulated information. The fact that there are journalists—men and women—fiercely committed to truth, working under constant threat, without any personal gain, and to get the real story out there is incredibly important right now.
They speak the truth about their people. Without them, the situation could have been a hundred times worse. Even the minimal global attention Afghanistan receives today is largely thanks to their efforts. Without them, we would not even have that.
Jacobsen: According to the Women, Peace, and Security Index (2023), Afghanistan ranked 177th out of 177 countries regarding women’s status, evaluating inclusion, justice, and security. Similarly, the Global Gender Gap Report (2023) placed Afghanistan 146th out of 146 countries, with only 40.5% of the gender gap closed—across areas like economic participation, education, health, and political empowerment.
Do these numbers reflect what you are seeing and experiencing in your analysis?
Dashti: Unfortunately, yes. That is not surprising at all. I do not think there is any country in the world right now where the situation for women is as dire as it is in Afghanistan.
We live in the 21st century. Elsewhere, people are talking about colonizing Mars—and yet we have an entire country where the government forbids girls from attending school beyond the second grade. It is absurd.
How can anyone justify that? How is the international community tolerating this? It’s beyond comprehension.
Half the population—women—are barred from school, from contributing to society, and from pursuing careers. They are controlled in every aspect of their lives: what they wear, how they present themselves, what they say, where they go, and even whether they can sing or hear their voices publicly.
It is oppressive beyond belief. And no, I do not think there is a worse situation for women anywhere else on Earth right now.
Jacobsen: The United Nations has described Afghanistan today as “the world’s most repressive country for women.” UN experts have stated that the situation resembles conditions before February 2002—effectively erasing twenty years of progress in education, employment, Freedom of movement, public participation, legal protections, and protection from violence.
Many people find this a sensitive subject. So, for documentation and clarity, let us go through some of these factors factually, as identified by the UN. On education: Girls are banned from secondary and university education. The Taliban has issued edicts denying access to school beyond the sixth grade, as reported by UN Women.
Why the restriction on secondary and university education? Why is the focus on cutting off access beyond sixth grade?
Dashti: From what we observed, when the Taliban first took over, there was a very brief window during which women were still allowed to work and continue their education. But that didn’t last long.
Initially, this notion was circulated—”Taliban 2.0″—the idea that they had changed, that they were no longer the same as the Taliban of the 1990s. People wanted to believe they were more modern, more moderate. I think what the Taliban tried to do was gradually restrict women’s rights so that the international community—and even local communities—would become accustomed to the changes little by little.
First, they banned secondary education. Then came the restrictions on universities. After that, they began dictating what women could wear. Then came limits on where women could go. Now, we are seeing women silenced even in public spaces—not allowed to speak or have their voices heard in public forums.
There’s no particular reason they drew the line in sixth grade. It was just the beginning of a strategy to systematically dismantle the education system for girls, slowly enough that people would not react all at once. Their end goal is to eliminate female education, but they’re doing it step by step, trying to normalize it.
Jacobsen: Are there any comparable cases in your mind—either in your travels to Albania, Pakistan, and Canada or in conversations with others—where you’ve encountered subcultures or conditions reflecting this kind of oppression? Or is this truly a uniquely severe case of women’s education?
Dashti: Simply put, women’s rights have been a global issue. This is not exclusive to Afghanistan. However, the severity of the situation in Afghanistan today is unlike anything we see anywhere else.
Yes, other countries have problems when it comes to gender equality. However, the total and deliberate rollback of women’s rights—especially education—to this extent in the 21st century is unique. Afghanistan stands out because of how systematic and ideological the oppression is.
Jacobsen: Regarding employment, Women have been prohibited from working in most non-governmental organizations since December 2022, and by April 2023, the ban was extended to include even United Nations missions. The European Parliament highlighted these restrictions. Why do you think the Taliban would even ban women from working in international organizations like the UN?
Dashti: I think it’s very simple. The Taliban are afraid of the power Afghan women possess. They are afraid of their strength, their resilience, and their ability to organize. Banning women from working with NGOs—and even from participating in UN missions—is an attempt to suppress and isolate them. The Taliban fear what women represent: education, progress, and Freedom. And so they’re trying to silence that power in any way they can.
It comes down to this: anything unknown is often perceived as dangerous. That is human nature. And the Taliban see the strength Afghan women possess. They see our potential. And because they do not understand how to coexist with that strength, they fear it. They label it as dangerous.
Their only way to deal with what they perceive as a threat is to suppress it and oppress it as much as they can. As a government, they do not want to be represented by women in any context, including domestic governance and international diplomacy. So when they extended these bans even to United Nations missions, it became clear: they are not just enforcing rules. They are enforcing a worldview in which women are deliberately excluded from visibility and power.
Whether it is because they believe they are inherently superior to women or simply because they fear what women are capable of—I think it is both—they are determined to control us through exclusion.
Jacobsen: Another factor raised by the international community is Freedom of movement. Since 2021, Afghan women have been prohibited from travelling without a mahram—a male relative. Let us explore both the physical and psychological aspects of that restriction. What does it mean in both tangible and symbolic terms?
On a physical level, it is very straightforward: women cannot go anywhere unless accompanied by a male relative. That includes necessities—going to work, visiting a doctor, or travelling between cities. It is a profound logistical barrier.
But psychologically, the restriction is even more damaging. It is a direct assault on a woman’s autonomy, on her right to exist independently.
Dashti: It sends a message that women are not full human beings—that we are incomplete without a man beside us.
This rule is part of a much broader effort to strip women of independence, piece by piece. And it overlooks a critical reality: many women do not have male relatives. There are orphans. There are single mothers, widows, and women whose families have been torn apart by decades of war. What happens to them?
Many of these women are also the sole providers for their families. If they cannot move freely, they cannot work, and their families suffer. This rule isn’t just oppressive—it is inhumane.
But again, the goal is clear: the Taliban want to condition women into believing that they cannot function without male oversight. They want to dismantle any remaining sense of independence.
Jacobsen: And that ties into public participation, perhaps the most visible aspect of rights. You have to be able to be seen in public to participate in public life.
Formal laws—published as recently as August 2024—now restrict or outright prohibit women’s voices from being heard publicly. I do not think they mean “public” in the sense of parliamentary buildings or being on the news. They mean it literally—your voice cannot be heard in the street, even in passing conversation. So, for example, if a woman is speaking and a man walks by, that is considered a violation. Is that accurate?
Dashti: Yes, that is very much accurate. The rule is meant to prevent women’s voices from being heard by any man, not just in official or professional settings but in everyday life.
So, for instance, if you are a woman shopping in a market and the shopkeeper is a man, you are no longer supposed to speak to him. This is interpreted literally—your voice cannot be audible to men in public. That is how far the restrictions have gone.
Jacobsen: And now we come to legal protection from violence, which people in the West might more readily recognize because it is an issue every country still struggles with—though reporting varies.
For example, Japan is often cited as having lower rates of reported violence, but those statistics may be shaped by how the country defines violence and how well incidents are documented.
In the case of Afghanistan, gender-based violence is high. According to UN Women, 34.7% of women aged 15 to 49 reported physical or sexual violence by an intimate partner in 2018. Forced marriages are common.
Of course, data reliability becomes an issue under a theocracy that is increasingly cut off from the outside world. So, we often have to treat these statistics with caution. But based on your experience—particularly among refugees, asylum seekers, and others you’ve worked with—does this track with what you hear from women in that age range?
Dashti: Absolutely. We saw a sudden surge in these cases right after the Taliban takeover. There were credible reports of girls as young as eight being sold into forced and child marriages—for as little as a few hundred U.S. dollars. That is horrifying.
And even outside of Afghanistan—while I was in Albania, I worked with an organization that aimed to provide safe spaces for female Afghan refugees. Many of them reported experiences of domestic violence—not just back home but also in displacement.
So, while we must focus on the erasure of women’s rights inside Afghanistan, we also need to pay attention to Afghan women in exile—refugees, asylum seekers, and others—who are often still vulnerable to abuse and exploitation, even in host countries, including those in North America and Europe.
Jacobsen: Regarding political empowerment, it is effectively 0%. To round the data, women are not represented in political decision-making structures in Afghanistan today.
Are there any areas in which women in Afghanistan still have decision-making power—whether in the home, in the economy, in employment, or otherwise, regardless of whether they have children?
Dashti: No—honestly, I cannot think of a single situation where an Afghan woman holds meaningful decision-making power, especially not at the government level.
That said, I want to emphasize that while women may not currently make the decisions, they are fighting against those who do. The absence of power is not because Afghan women lack strength or capability—it is because they are being systematically oppressed.
But in terms of actual decision-making authority today, I cannot think of any context where an Afghan woman would be allowed to exercise it.
Jacobsen: In the absence of formal power, how do Afghan women realistically rebel or resist?
Dashti: I think a lot of it happens quietly—within the home, in their communities, and through subtle, daily acts of defiance. Feminism in Afghanistan is fundamentally different from feminism in Western countries.
In the West, feminism often works within the state—pushing for rights, representation, and reforms. But in Afghanistan, feminism is about challenging the very existence of the regime. It is about opposing the structure itself.
That takes strength beyond words. And the fact that so many Afghan women are risking their lives to resist is incredibly inspiring.
Jacobsen: What do people in places like Toronto or other relatively free societies take for granted?
Dashti: A normal life.
A free life where you can express your thoughts without fear, speak your truth openly, go for a walk alone, talk in public, go to school, go to work, and spend time with your family without the fear that something—or someone—will take all of that away from you.
Jacobsen: How important are international frameworks on gender parity—such as the Beijing Declaration and Platform for Action from September 1995—for defending Afghan women’s rights?
That document is still considered the most comprehensive global policy on gender equality, signed by nearly every UN member state. Beyond that, what other frameworks are you aware of, and how important are they—beyond the symbolic statements issued at UN events like the Commission on the Status of Women?
Dashti: These reports and frameworks influence policymaking and the international community’s reactions.
Let me rephrase that a bit. If we look at this through the lens of universal rights, the concept is simple: every human being is entitled to basic human rights, regardless of where they live.
So when organizations like the UN, UN Women, or other global bodies issue reports, declarations, or resolutions, they do more than make statements. These documents become points of pressure—tools that activists, governments, and civil society groups can use to hold nations accountable.
They set global standards, influence funding, diplomatic engagement, and policy, and while they may not immediately change conditions on the ground in places like Afghanistan, they provide the language, evidence, and international consensus needed to continue the fight.
However, when you look at the concept of universal rights in practice, they only apply within a functioning state and are only enforceable within a state framework. That is the paradox—rights are considered universal, but their application requires a state structure willing to uphold them.
The same goes for these global declarations and reports. The reports are often accurate, but the actual conditions are far more severe than what is reflected in the data.
That is partly due to the political and logistical restrictions in Afghanistan. But it is also because the international community is, to some degree, trying to normalize the situation. They do not want to admit how bad it has become or lack the will to confront it directly.
That said, I recognize the importance of these reports. They influence policymakers and lawmakers and serve as reference points for diplomacy, foreign aid, and advocacy. But they need to be more truthful—more precise. They must reflect the actual lived experience of Afghan women today.
Jacobsen: When I look at the current Taliban leadership—the men in power now—I see something tragic. They will eventually pass away, and younger generations may take over. But the ones leading now, I do not just see as oppressors, sometimes; I sometimes see them as victims of fate, chaos, and trauma.
Their extremism, both religious and political, seems to reflect something psychological—perhaps PTSD or complex post-traumatic stress disorder—the long-term effect of living in endless war.
It is heartbreaking, in a way, how this unresolved trauma gets twisted into repression and then imposed on everyone else.
I once interviewed a major Afghan journalist who said he was open to speaking with Taliban members. I found that remarkable—not because he agreed with them, but because he believed dialogue should always remain possible in a neutral space, maybe something like the Doha Debates format.
I would be interested in sitting down with them—not to endorse their ideology, obviously—but to understand, in a visceral way, what happens to men who are so deeply broken. Not their policies—we already know those—but the psychology beneath that extremism.
What do you think about that? What is your take on the psychology of people who become this repressive?
Dashti: Honestly, I believe the only emotion that could drive people to such extremes—to such complete repression—is fear. It is fear of losing control, fear of what women represent—education, progress, equality, fear of change, fear of anything they cannot dominate or contain.
They know that Afghan women are strong, educated, and capable—and they are terrified of that. So, they suppress it in every way they can. But deep down, I think you are right: it comes from a place of damage, of psychological injury. That fear becomes ideology, and then ideology becomes violence.
Jacobsen: So, the only emotion driving this is fear?
Dashti: Yes—fear is the only emotion I can think of that would produce such an extreme, controlling reaction. When we look at the psychological state of the leaders currently in power in Afghanistan, it becomes clear that their obsession with stripping away women’s rights comes from deep-seated fear.
The fact that the government is so singularly focused on erasing women’s presence from public life shows that they fear the power of Afghan women. And that fear manifests in these increasingly oppressive laws and boundaries. It is fear of what we represent—education, progress, autonomy—that drives their repression.
Jacobsen: Now, there was a third international metric I want to mention, complementing the Global Gender Gap Report 2023 and the Women, Peace, and Security Index 2023. This one is from a few years earlier—the 2019 Gender Inequality Index (GII). While the Global Gender Gap ranked Afghanistan 146 out of 146 and the WPS Index ranked 177 out of 177, the GII ranked Afghanistan 157 out of 162 in 2019.
This index focused on reproductive health, empowerment, and labour participation. More recent data would likely show an even lower ranking. And this type of change can happen fast—as we saw in the United States with the Dobbs decision, which overturned Roe v. Wade, setting a precedent that reshaped reproductive rights nationwide.
We’re not just living in a post-Roe world but in a post-Dobbs world. That reversal was swift and far-reaching, affecting millions of women.
So when the GII refers to reproductive health, what were they specifically measuring?
Dashti: May I add one point before answering?
Jacobsen: Of course—please do.
Dashti: Most people do not realize that Afghanistan’s situation can have a ripple effect beyond our borders. It is not isolated.
Our lives were overturned in a matter of two weeks. That kind of rapid collapse could happen anywhere in the world, depending on who is in power and what ideologies they hold.
As you mentioned, we saw something similar to reproductive rights in the United States. The overturning of Roe v. Wade through the Dobbs decision stripped away rights from millions of women overnight. If it can happen there, that kind of rollback can happen elsewhere and in more extreme forms.
It is a stark reminder of how fragile women’s rights and human rights are globally. We cannot afford to take them for granted—not in Afghanistan, not in the West, not anywhere.
Jacobsen: What is the most sensitive or critical area regarding women’s rights? Is it political participation, economic opportunity, reproductive health, Freedom of movement, or psychological autonomy? Which of those categories stands out to you within the context of Afghanistan?
Dashti: I think they are all extremely damaging—every one of them. But if I had to choose the most damaging, I would say the ban on education.
That is why it was one of the first restrictions imposed after the Taliban regained power. Education is power. Knowledge is power. And by taking that away from half of the population, the Taliban are eliminating women’s ability to resist, grow, and lead.
So, yes—while reproductive health, empowerment, and labour market participation are all critical, the education ban is the most dangerous. It underpins everything else.
Jacobsen: Continuing with that list—reproductive health, empowerment, and labour market participation—these categories can sound vague. So let me ask more specifically: What has been the Taliban’s response to any form of resistance from Afghan women?
Dashti: Unfortunately, the backlash has been extremely severe. Most people outside Afghanistan are unaware of how serious the situation is.
The number of women leaders, advocates, and protesters who are currently in prison—being tortured, even killed—is horrifying. The forms of torture they endure are unspeakable.
Part of the reason more people do not know this is that the international community’s focus is elsewhere right now. The other part is the difficulty in getting accurate information out of Afghanistan due to the intense restrictions on journalism and the threats faced by reporters still trying to work there.
The backlash to resistance is beyond what most people can imagine.
Jacobsen: The Gender Inequality Index (2019) identified maternal mortality and adolescent birth rates as key reproductive health indicators. So, if you reduce or eliminate quality reproductive care, more women die during childbirth. Simultaneously, with rising child marriage, you see an increase in teen pregnancy.
When those conditions are coupled with the ban on education, you have the building blocks of a long-term cycle of poverty, early motherhood, and large families with low educational attainment—a dynamic most societies aim to mitigate. Do you see any way out of that cycle, which is now being explicitly constructed?
Dashti: Right now, it might seem impossible to break that cycle from the outside. The situation is too far gone.
But we have already seen that cycle broken. Afghan women have made incredible progress in the last twenty years—hard-won and transformative gains. So, while it feels like we are back at square one, I believe Afghan women have the strength to overcome this, too.
We have endured worse. We have risen before. And even in the face of this situation, I believe we will rise again, and the cycle will be broken—just as it was over the past two decades.
So yes, it might seem impossible right now—but we’ve done the impossible before, and I believe we will do it again.
Jacobsen: Another key factor is labour market participation. This one is a bit more nuanced. It is not just a drop in workforce involvement—it is, in many ways, an absolute collapse. There is now minimal to zero formal workforce participation for women.
The others compound this restriction. If women cannot speak in public, cannot sit in parliament, are limited to a sixth-grade education, and are likely to be married as teenagers or children, then even if a woman were to dodge all of those restrictions somehow and achieve the maximum education currently permitted, what employment options would exist?
Dashti: From what I can see, there are none.
There are a few exceptions. Undercover schools and organizations are operating covertly, some supported by the Afghan diaspora or Western allies. These are often run by women who fled Afghanistan and now operate remotely. A handful of women are involved in underground educational initiatives or small-scale projects that are tolerated for now because they fly under the radar.
However, outside of those, I do not see any viable employment opportunities for women. And to be completely honest, dodging all of those barriers is practically impossible under the current regime.
If a woman cannot speak in public, move freely, or pursue education, how is she supposed to work—in any capacity? So, right now, there are no real employment pathways available for women in Afghanistan.
Jacobsen: Not even allowed to enjoy One Direction.
Dashti: [Laughing] No. Not.
Jacobsen: Two additional metrics are worth mentioning. One is the Human Development Index (HDI) 2023–2024, one of the newest outside of Freedom House, which we’ll get to in a moment.
According to the United Nations Development Programme (UNDP) and the Human Development Index 2023–2024, Afghanistan ranked 182 out of 193 countries, with an overall HDI score of 0.462.
The disparity becomes clearer when the data is gender-disaggregated: the female HDI is 0.406, while the male HDI is 0.547. That is a massive gap in an already extremely low development context.
Two of the clearest drivers behind this are the restriction on education and near-zero income levels due to the collapse in female labour force participation—which, as you’ve pointed out, aligns directly with your observations.
This brings us back to the Beijing Declaration, which repeatedly emphasizes the value of unpaid work—such as childcare, elder care, and community-building—which forms much of any society’s invisible infrastructure.
In most parts of the world, women predominantly build this kind of social capital. It is unpaid, unrecognized, and underappreciated, but it is essential.
Do these Afghan policies also damage the country’s potential to build or sustain social capital?
Dashti: Absolutely. These policies are not just harming women—they are harming the entire society.
When women are prevented from participating in education, employment, public life, and even in informal caregiving roles with autonomy, they are destroying the very Foundation of the community.
Women raise children, care for older people, build networks, and stabilize communities. Even when unpaid, their labour generates enormous social and economic value. But when you silence, isolate, and prevent them from contributing, you don’t just lose workforce participation. You also lose trust, connection, and social cohesion.
So yes, Afghanistan is not only losing the opportunity for women’s economic empowerment, but it is also losing its social capital, piece by piece.
Jacobsen: Another relevant report is the Freedom in the World 2024 by Freedom House.
As with the other data we’ve discussed, Afghanistan’s classification won’t surprise anyone. It was designated as “Not Free,” scoring 8 out of 100 overall—not a ranking, but a numerical score. Specifically, it scored 1 out of 40 for political rights and 7 out of 60 for civil liberties.
I am unsure how they arrived at the “7” for civil liberties. Given the ban on education and employment, exclusion from public participation, severe restrictions on movement, mandatory male guardianship, and public silence edicts, it is not easy to imagine what civil liberties remain.
That report encapsulates all the elements we’ve covered through the other indexes.
Then there’s the UN Women Gender Snapshot 2024, produced jointly by UN Women and the United Nations Department of Economic and Social Affairs. Afghanistan wasn’t assigned a numeric ranking, but it was explicitly identified as the worst performer on gender equality among 166 countries assessed.
For those unfamiliar with UN systems—such as model UN participants or those without a background in international relations—when the UN refers to “countries,” it typically means member states. These can include full member states, non-member observer states, small island developing states, and other special classifications with varying voting and veto power levels.
So even within that limited scope of 166 countries, Afghanistan was highlighted as the worst in achieving Sustainable Development Goal 5: Gender Equality.
And consistently, across these global indexes, the newer the data, the more reliably Afghanistan is positioned at the bottom in terms of gender equality—for both boys and girls, men and women.
Afghanistan is, therefore, a critical case study for discussion, analysis, and advocacy. It urgently reminds us that while every country has its gender parity challenges, there is value in calibrating outrage, contextualizing progress, and recognizing that some places—like Afghanistan—are facing an existential human rights crisis, especially for women and girls.
Looking through this data, one question stands out:
Where does the Fahim Dashti Foundation situate itself in light of this overwhelming body of evidence collected by serious international experts—statisticians, economists, and human rights monitors?
Dashti: The Fahim Dashti Foundation was born because of this crisis—it was created after the Taliban’s takeover in response to what we saw unfold in Afghanistan.
Our Foundation exists to honour my father’s legacy as a journalist, advocate for free expression, and continue his vision for a free, inclusive, and just society in Afghanistan—one where women are protected and empowered.
In the face of these reports—whether it’s the Freedom House rankings, the Human Development Index, the Gender Inequality Index, or the UN Gender Snapshot—we are grounded in reality. We know what is happening because we live it and hear it from people back home daily.
We position ourselves as a voice for truth, a platform for advocacy, and a network for resilience—especially for Afghan women, journalists, youth, and those in exile who still want to support their communities from afar.
We may not have the scale of the UN, but we have clarity of purpose, moral urgency, and a global community that is slowly but surely mobilizing.
Even without these reports, we already knew the situation was severe. We were living it and knew it was unlike anything else happening in the world.
But once again, the Afghan people—especially Afghan women—have faced hardship before. And in some ways, they have faced it even more severely. And every time, they have fought back. They have resisted.
The Dashti Foundation has always been public about the hope we carry—for a brighter Afghanistan. We are fully aware of the immense challenges our people are facing right now. But at the same time, we see their strength, their resilience, and their refusal to give up.
We wholeheartedly believe we will overcome this—but only if we continue fighting.
Jacobsen: Narges Mohammadi: What about her? She is a prominent and highly respected human rights activist. But what do you know that I might not?
Dashti: Honestly, the situation with Narges Mohammadi is very public, especially now. She is imprisoned, even though she is a Nobel Peace Prize laureate.
That fact alone—being a Nobel laureate and still being imprisoned—tells you everything you need to know about how authoritarian regimes view powerful, outspoken women.
And I believe what we are seeing in Iran, while it predates the Taliban’s return to power in Afghanistan, has in some ways intensified after the fall of Kabul. When the focus of the international community shifted to Afghanistan, I think Iran’s regime saw a window to escalate its repression.
We all remember what happened a couple of years ago with the death of Mahsa Amini, which triggered the Women, Life, Freedom movement. That movement echoed far beyond Iran’s borders.
It shows that what happens in Afghanistan does not stay in Afghanistan. It affects and influences neighbouring countries—and eventually the world.
When you look at someone like Narges Mohammadi, you see what these regimes fear most: a woman who leads. A woman who speaks truth to power. And because they fear women’s strength and potential, they try to suppress it by any means necessary.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Marwa.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/15
Dr. Ran Anbar, a pediatric pulmonologist and clinical hypnosis expert, discusses the essential needs of children today, emphasizing emotional support, autonomy, and self-regulation over micromanagement. He explains how hypnosis helps youth manage stress and emotions and underscores the importance of validating children’s feelings. Anbar critiques the impact of social media on mental health, highlighting sleep deprivation and social comparison as significant issues. He advocates for structured routines, resilience-building through mistakes, and trusting children to foster self-confidence. His book The Life Guide for Teens provides practical tools—like positive self-talk and mindfulness—to help teens develop confidence, resilience, and emotional independence.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here with Dr. Ran Anbar, MD, FAAP—a board-certified pediatrician and pulmonologist with extensive experience in clinical hypnosis for children and adolescents. With over 20 years of clinical practice, he has treated more than 5,000 patients. He currently practices at Center Point Medicine in La Jolla, California, and Syracuse, New York. A former SUNY Upstate Medical University faculty member, Dr. Anbar is also a Fellow and Approved Consultant of the American Society of Clinical Hypnosis. He authored The Life Guide for Teens, a book designed to help teenagers develop confidence, resilience, and healthier daily habits. Thank you very much for joining me today—I appreciate it. So, based on your decades of pediatric experience, what do children truly need to thrive in today’s world? And what do we often think they need, which, in reality, may not be essential at all?
Dr. Ran Anbar: Children must grow up in safe, stable environments and benefit from engaged adult involvement—ideally from two caregivers, as different perspectives enrich learning. They need opportunities to learn—not just in traditional classrooms, but in a range of environments. They also need emotional support and open communication with the people raising them. That connection helps them process challenges, test ideas, and grow with guidance. What people sometimes think kids need is constant micromanagement. Children indeed make mistakes, but overly controlling parents may feel the need to correct or prevent every error.
That’s a misjudgment. Children often learn best through experience—including making mistakes and reflecting on them. Some parents believe that punishing a child for errors is the way to teach them. But punishment often breeds resentment or the perception that the system is unfair. A better approach is to talk with the child about what went wrong, why it happened, and how they can improve. If the child feels genuine remorse, that’s usually enough. Even if a child repeats the same mistake several times, that’s not unusual. Sometimes, we must make a mistake multiple times before the lesson fully registers. The goal should be understanding, not control.
For example—and I share this with parents—when a toddler learns to walk, they fall down, get up, trip, fall again, and repeat this process for weeks. Falling is essential to development because that’s when the brain learns: You cannot walk that way. Teenagers need similar experiences to truly become resilient and gain mastery over themselves. If a parent micromanages a child, the child is not prepared to face the world independently.
Jacobsen: What about the role of emotional validation by guardians, parents, or elders in the community?
Anbar: Emotional validation is critical. It allows children to recognize and explore who they are, and it sends the message that it’s okay, for example, to disagree with adults or to think differently than others.
Many children fear being different because they fear being excluded or targeted for their uniqueness. Ironically, different people often have the most to contribute to society. They bring fresh perspectives. But because of that fear, many kids try to conform—unsure how to be. And if we do not validate their emotions, they feel even less empowered to express themselves.
So yes, validating feelings is essential. When raising a child who appears to be reacting inappropriately to something, it’s critical to approach the situation with curiosity, not judgment. Ask, “What were you thinking when you did that?”
Often, the child has a valid reason. For example, I remember an 8-year-old boy who refused to close the bathroom door. His parents kept yelling, “Close the bathroom door!”—but he would not.
When I saw him in my office, I asked him, “What’s going on?” He said, “I’m afraid of monsters in the bathroom.”
So, I gave him a monster spray.
If you want the recipe, we can talk about it later. He sprayed the bathroom, and after that, he could close the door. That was the right solution for an 8-year-old.
For a teen, I saw a 13-year-old today who refused to put on his seat belt. His mother yelled at him to wear it, but he refused. She stopped the car, and they got into a big argument.
I asked the bright-eyed teen, “What’s the purpose of a seat belt?”
He could not answer.
The adults around him had just assumed that he knew. But this kid had never been told directly.
So, I explained: “If your car stops suddenly, you could be thrown from the vehicle. You could get badly hurt—or worse.”
I shared a story. Once, I was on an airplane and got the dreaded call: “Is there a doctor on board?”
I went to help an older man with chest pain and sat next to him during the landing. I was in the aisle seat and was not wearing a seat belt. I couldn’t believe how much force I felt when the plane landed.
When you wear a seat belt, you do not realize how strong that stopping force is.
I told this story to the teen. When he said, “Okay, I’ll wear my seat belt,” there was no more argument.
So when a child seems to be acting irrationally, really listen. What appears irrational to an adult may make perfect sense to the child. Understand it, address it, and avoid repeated conflicts over things that do not need to be contentious.
Jacobsen: What about the role of hypnosis and self-regulation? Are there children for whom these tools are not necessary? And others for whom they’re essential and easy to adopt? And are there kids for whom it’s nearly impossible?
Anbar: First, hypnosis is just a way to use your imagination to help yourself. It’s not mind control, it’s not sleep, and it’s not unusual.
We experience hypnosis all the time. When you’re driving and suddenly wonder, “How did I get here?”—that’s a hypnotic state. When you’re in a boring lecture, and your mind drifts into daydreaming—that’s also a form of hypnosis.
So, hypnosis is a normal state of mind. But in that state, you can give yourself helpful suggestions—like calming your emotions, managing pain, or improving your focus. And by doing so, you can improve your life.
Anyone can benefit from hypnosis because it touches many areas of life. It can enhance athletic and academic performance, emotional regulation, and creativity—anything involving the mind can be improved through hypnosis.
I’ve found that if you offer children a way to self-regulate—and it only takes about 10 minutes to get started—they typically are not interested unless they have an immediate need.
So, who benefits? Anyone with a chronic illness—child or adult. Why? Because living with a chronic condition brings uncertainty and emotional stress. In the U.S., around 60% of adults have a chronic illness. If you have a brain, you’re going to think about it—you might feel anxious or depressed or dread going to the hospital again. That stress can make symptoms worse.
When people learn to self-regulate, primarily through hypnosis, symptoms often improve—sometimes dramatically. Sometimes, people even reduce or eliminate the need for certain medications because they manage symptoms better through the mind-body connection.
Other people who benefit are those who struggle with emotional regulation, especially anger. Many children have trouble with anger, and many parents do, too. In my book, The Life Guide for Teens, I encourage teens and parents to use hypnosis for emotional regulation.
Hypnosis can be a shortcut for changing your mindset. I often tell parents: if you’re arguing with your teen, and one of you is angry—stop. It’s not worth continuing. If you’re yelling, your teen shuts down. They are no longer listening. You’re just wasting your breath.
And if they’re angry, they’re not listening either. So, if the topic matters, take a break, cool down, and then come back and talk calmly.
Anger is hard to control. When your teen does something wrong, your impulse is to correct it immediately—sometimes by raising your voice. But if you yell, they stop hearing you. The lesson is lost. The learning opportunity is gone.
That’s why parents and children should learn emotional regulation, and hypnosis is an excellent, fast, and effective tool.
Jacobsen: Are there early warning signs of mental illness—or at least mental health struggles—in youth that differ from those in adults, or are they more or less the same?
Anbar: I think the signs of mental health challenges often show up in behaviour, so they manifest differently in children than in adults. For example, teenagers might isolate themselves from their rooms, whereas adults may start missing work. Teenagers often struggle with judgment, so poor decision-making might not stand out. However, in an adult, a sudden onset of poor decision-making may be a clear red flag for a mental health issue. In children, signs of mental illness include social withdrawal, loss of friendships, or expressions of hopelessness—things like saying, “Nothing I do matters,”or “Life isn’t worth living.” That does not necessarily mean they are suicidal, but it reflects emotional distress. If a child loses interest in activities they once enjoyed, that could be a sign of depression. If they avoid everyday tasks out of fear—because they’re overly worried about what could go wrong—that can signal anxiety, which is one of the most common mental health concerns in children.
Jacobsen: Do social media and screen time influence or contribute to mental health struggles? Or do they also, in some ways, contribute positively to mental health? Are some of the publicized concerns red herrings?
Anbar: I think the public concerns underestimate the impact of social media on youth mental health. Let’s take autism, which has been in the news recently. There’s been a dramatic increase in the diagnosis rate. I looked this up today—though please double-check the figures—but in 1989, the reported prevalence was about 4 cases per 10,000 children. It’s estimated at around 3% today, or 300 per 10,000. Why is that? I believe it’s multifactorial. There are likely environmental contributors, and I suspect screen exposure—particularly in young children—is part of the equation. For instance, when two-year-olds are placed in front of iPads, they become quiet and self-occupied. Parents often see quiet behaviour as convenient, so they’re left alone. But instead of playing in a sandbox, interacting with other kids, throwing sand (and learning that it makes another child cry and that this has consequences), those children miss vital social learning experiences. For kids who may already be borderline neurodivergent, these missed opportunities can make a big difference in their developmental trajectory. I have not yet seen definitive studies confirming this hypothesis. Still, I strongly suspect that insufficient early social interaction—due to increased screen exposure—can lead to long-term difficulties with socialization, possibly contributing to the rise in autism diagnoses.
Now, social media and internet use affect teens in multiple harmful ways. There’s already strong data indicating that the more time adolescents spend on social media, the more likely they are to experience anxiety, depression, and suicidal thoughts. In my view, one of the main reasons for this is its negative impact on sleep.
Teens are often on their phones late at night—playing video games, texting, scrolling through Instagram or TikTok—and lose sleep. Lack of sleep contributes to anxiety, depression, suicidality, and poor academic performance, all of which are on the rise among teenagers. The average teen should sleep between 8 and 10 hours per night, but most are getting 7 hours or less. It is a real crisis. What else? Social media. Social media places the entire world at your fingertips 24/7. When I was growing up, if there was a school shooting—and yes, there were shootings in the ’70s and’ 80s—I might not have even heard about it. It might have aired briefly on the evening news if I had happened to watch it, which I usually did not. Maybe it was in the newspaper, which I didn’t read either. So I’d be oblivious. Now, if there’s a school shooting, it’s immediately on your phone. Teens are exposed to it constantly, and it starts to feel like it’s happening everywhere. Yes, school shootings have increased, but the sense of danger is amplified by algorithms that repeatedly push similar content, reinforcing the belief that the world is far more dangerous than it may statistically be. That creates heightened anxiety. It’s not like the past when kids played outside until dark and came home to sleep—without being exposed to traumatic events from all over the world. Another issue is the idealized version of life that teens see on social media. Many want to be influencers or YouTubers, but those roles are only achieved by a tiny fraction. Most teens never get there, and as a result, they feel inadequate. They think, “I’m not popular,” or “I don’t get enough likes,” and that spirals into depression—because adolescents crave being liked and accepted. These are entirely new emotional challenges brought about by the digital world. Some teens tell me, “I wish I didn’t have a smartphone.” Some have even said, “I wish nobody had smartphones,”because if you don’t have a phone, you risk being socially excluded—everything happens via text. But some teens are wise enough to see the downsides. Some countries are already regulating screen use. I do not see that happening in the United States anytime soon, so it’s up to the teens and their parents to self-regulate. I recommend that teens schedule their phone use—perhaps 30 minutes, two or three times daily—and otherwise keep it off. I encourage them to inform their friends about this plan so they don’t expect immediate replies. I have seen kids text a friend, not get a response in 10 minutes, and spiral into panic: “My friend has abandoned me,” or “They don’t like me anymore,” or “I’m an outcast”—all because the other teen was eating dinner and put the phone down.
Jacobsen: How can caregivers help their kids—or young people in general—develop emotional independence and self-trust?
Anbar: The first step is allowing the child to make choices, especially during the teen years. When you’re parenting a young child, they typically ask what to do, and you give them instructions—they follow them. However, during adolescence, kids begin to form their own opinions. Often, parents override those opinions because they believe them to be flawed or naive. But making mistakes—and learning from them—is part of growing up. It’s how young people become independent and build resilience.
In my practice, when parents come into the office with their children, they sometimes want to speak for them. I stop them and say, “No, I want to hear from your child.” That’s because when a parent tells the story, they may frame it differently than the child would. Even if the child agrees, speaking for them can send a subtle message: “You can’t speak for yourself.”
So, I ask the child directly. This sends an important signal: “I trust you.” And even if the child leaves something out or doesn’t explain things perfectly, that’s okay. If something is important, it will come up again.
The best way for caregivers to help children build self-trust is to demonstrate that they trust the child. That means letting them make decisions—even when those decisions are mistakes. When they mess up, the parent can say, “I believe in you. I’m proud that you’re learning from this.”
As children grow into teenagers, a parent’s role should shift. You go from being an enforcer who tells the child what to do to a supporter who encourages them to make good choices while still letting them make the choice.
The only time I believe a parent should pull rank—”You will do this because I’m your parent”—is in situations where the child’s choice could result in serious harm. For instance, if a child refuses to wear a seatbelt, I support the parent who pulls over and says, “We’re not going anywhere until you put that on.” That is a safety issue.
But let them fail for non-life-threatening matters—like not practicing a musical instrument and then performing poorly in a recital. Let them experience the consequences. That’s how they learn.
Jacobsen: Are the youth cohort less resilient than two or three generations ago?
Anbar: Interesting question. I think so. I think today’s youth tend to be less resilient, partly because their parents are also anxious—often for the same reasons as their children. Parents are far more vigilant than they were two or three generations ago.
As I mentioned, kids played outside independently, walked to friends’ homes, and had sleepovers without much supervision. Today, parents are often afraid to let their children out of sight—concerned about potential kidnappings, unsafe neighbours, or simply that their child might make a mistake.
So, kids are getting fewer opportunities to build independence and resilience.
We used to talk about “helicopter parents”—those who hover over their children constantly. I recently heard a new term: “bulldozer parents.” These parents clear every obstacle out of their child’s way in advance. They believe they’re helping, sparing their child from suffering. To develop resilience, caregivers need to give children opportunities to struggle independently.
In this hyper-competitive society, many parents feel that if they do not constantly push their child—ensuring top grades and college admissions—their child’s life will be ruined. But that’s parental anxiety talking. In the process, they deprive the child of valuable opportunities to become more resilient.
Jacobsen: What is the helpful role of discipline in a sleep schedule? And how do these things, counterintuitively, support creativity and the ability to engage in unstructured play? Are structured routines helpful for those areas, too?
Anbar: As I mentioned earlier, sleep is essential. For older children who may resist bedtime routines, it is important to talk with them about why sleep matters and get their buy-in.
You mentioned discipline. I am unsure if you meant self-discipline on the child’s part or discipline imposed by the parent—but either way, having a structure is essential.
Some parents take a free-range approach, letting kids do whatever they want. But that does not build resilience and does not reflect how the real world works.
It is important to provide structure, such as limiting video games on school nights or restricting smartphone use after a certain hour.
For example, set a rule that phones must be turned in by 9 p.m. Explain the reasoning. Make it clear that phones should not be taken to bed because that disrupts sleep. Younger teens especially struggle with resisting temptation. That’s developmentally normal, so help them manage it.
But also explain: “This is to help you.” When children understand the rule’s purpose, most will cooperate—not all, but most.
Self-discipline is key to living a good and successful life. However, children must be allowed to develop self-discipline. They will not learn self-discipline by being told what to do at every moment.
Again, we’ve discussed how free-range parenting, where little to no guidance, is ineffective. Helicopter parenting, where parents constantly hover and direct every move, is not effective either. It is about balance.
If I may recommend a book—not my own—there’s one called Parenting with Love and Logic for Teens by Foster Cline. It is a very straightforward, practical guide.
The core idea is this: as a parent, your job is to provide the environment where your child can thrive. But it is the child who thrives. It is not your job to do it for them. And I fully agree with that.
Jacobsen: What would you consider the core themes—as rhetorical questions—you ask and answer in The Life Guide for Teens?
Anbar: The main rhetorical question that underlies the book is: How can I help myself become happier, healthier, more confident, and more resilient? That’s the foundation. Because if you can achieve those four things, you will be in a good place.
The Life Guide for Teens’ message is that you can already do all of this within you. It’s just a matter of tapping into that inner potential, and the book focuses on how to do that.
Let me briefly share three key tools we explore.
First, positive self-talk. How you speak to yourself shapes how you see yourself—and, ultimately, what you become. If you repeatedly tell yourself, “I can’t do this” or “I’m no good,” that becomes your identity. But if you affirm, “I’m learning,” “I’m growing,” or “I can succeed,” your mind begins to align with that.
The Buddha said it well nearly 2,700 years ago: What we think, we become. That was true millennia ago, and it remains true today. So, I teach teens to shape their internal dialogue consciously.
Second, self-regulation. I teach how to calm your body and mind through simple techniques, including hypnosis. For example, you can learn to imagine a calming place and train your body to reenter that calm state in moments of stress. That’s a powerful tool.
Third, listen to your inner self—your subconscious. That starts with quieting your mind. One easy way is to take a walk in nature, ask yourself a question, and allow the answer to float into your awareness. You can do this in other settings, too, of course, but the key is learning to listen inwardly.
Your life will improve if you follow these three tools: positive self-talk, emotional self-regulation, and listening to your inner self.
The book includes 180 tools in total. It’s not meant to be read straight through. Instead, pick a chapter or a tool that speaks to you and try it out. If it works, it could make a lasting difference in your life.
Jacobsen: When I talk to psychologists—particularly those I reach out to because they specialize in narcissism, including formal Narcissistic Personality Disorder—two connected ideas frequently come up. On one hand, there’s the false self, the curated identity presented to others. You alluded to this earlier when talking about social media—the teenager who doesn’t get a reply in 10 minutes or enough likes and suddenly feels rejected or collapses emotionally.
On the other hand, there’s the authentic self—sometimes called the real or true self. To people like me, who come from different areas of expertise but encounter these terms in psychological discussions, they can sound abstract. But subjectively, I completely understand what they point to.
How can the principles you’ve shared—about self-regulation, resilience, inner calm, and subconscious awareness—help children and teens learn about their authentic selves rather than letting that self shrink while feeding the false self?
Anbar: Great question. To me, the key is the subconscious. That’s how we access the inner self.
The inner self is fascinating, and I’m writing a third book on this topic. I’ve repeatedly found that the subconscious tends to tell the truth, giving us unfiltered insight.
Let me share an example. I once asked a 16-year-old boy a question. But before I asked him, I asked the question of his subconscious. The boy had just learned to drive. I said, “You’ve been told you’re not allowed to drive other teens yet. But your friends ask you to take them to the mall. Do you do it?”
His subconscious responded, “No, he’s not a good driver. He shouldn’t do that.”
Then I asked his conscious mind the same question. He said, “I probably would because I don’t want to disappoint my friends. But if I didn’t, I’d brag to my parents about it.”
Then I asked a teenage girl the same question—she was also just learning to drive. I posed the question to her subconscious: “Should you drive your friends to the mall?” Her subconscious said, “Yes, she’s a good driver.”
When I asked her conscious mind, she said, “No, I wouldn’t—it’s against the law.”
The answers are interesting because they show a split: the subconscious responds based on self-knowledge and personal safety, while the conscious self responds according to social norms, legal expectations, or peer pressure.
The boy’s subconscious admitted he wasn’t a safe driver, while the girl’s subconscious felt confident in her driving skills. But the conscious answers were reversed—one wanted approval, the other cited the law.
This illustrates how the subconscious operates honestly, often in ways that prioritize the person’s well-being, while the conscious self is much more influenced by external rules and social dynamics.
So, if you want to help a young person connect to their authentic self, you help them access their subconscious. That part of themselves can guide them with more clarity and integrity than the performative self we present.
Jacobsen: Do you think the challenges facing kids today have substantially changed? Or have we just changed the lettering on the cake and the icing while the cake—the underlying challenges—stays the same?
Anbar: No, the challenges have substantially changed. We’ve discussed the Internet and social media—these didn’t even exist thirty years ago.
Also, societal expectations have intensified. There’s this pervasive idea that everyone needs to excel—and if you’re not at the top, you’re seen as a failure. That kind of pressure has gotten worse over time.
It’s interesting—recently, I came across an essay I wrote in college about 45 years ago. I went to the University of California, San Diego. In that essay, I argued that college should be harder. That was 35 years ago, and I still stand by that today.
I don’t think college is always the best path—especially for fields that do not require extensive mentoring, like medicine or law.
Back then, and even more so now, we’ve created this cultural expectation that everyone needs a college degree to succeed. But many degrees aren’t particularly useful in today’s job market. For example, a bachelor’s in psychology or political science won’t get you far unless you go to graduate school.
So we’re pushing kids toward higher education under the assumption that it’s essential for a good life, and in many cases, that isn’t true. That pressure is unnecessary, and it’s weighing heavily on young people.
Some of the most successful individuals we know—like Bill Gates—dropped out of college. Why? For many people, the structure of college doesn’t provide the value they need.
If I change the system today, that’s one area I would re-examine.
I’m going off-topic here. Still, I also believe our education system has not evolved with modern technology—especially given the rise of the Internet and artificial intelligence.
We still rely heavily on the lecture format, which dates back thousands of years when people couldn’t read. But we’re far past that now.
We could design much more efficient learning models—letting students read at their own pace, watch lectures online, and then use class time for deeper discussion, personalized problem-solving, and mentorship. That’s where the real value lies.
Jacobsen: Dr. Anbar, thank you very much for your time today. It was a pleasure to meet you, and I genuinely appreciate your insights and expertise.
Anbar: Thank you for the opportunity.
Jacobsen: Excellent. I’ll be in touch.
Anbar: Thank you.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/14
Professor Stacey B. Lee of Johns Hopkins discusses a pivotal Supreme Court case challenging the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force’s authority under the Affordable Care Act. Plaintiffs argue the Task Force violates the Appointments Clause, potentially limiting HHS’s ability to mandate no-cost preventive care. Lee outlines the legal, policy, and public health stakes, warning of impacts on 50 million Americans and broader threats to agency authority. She emphasizes the vital role of medical experts and highlights the contrast between U.S. religious influence on healthcare policy and evidence-based approaches seen in other democracies.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Stacey B. Lee, JD. She is a Professor at Johns Hopkins University, with appointments at both the Carey Business School and the Bloomberg School of Public Health. Professor Lee combines academic excellence with over a decade of legal and regulatory experience. Her forthcoming book, Transforming Health Care Through Negotiation (Routledge, 2025), introduces tools for improving care delivery and health outcomes. She is also a Fulbright Specialist, a court-appointed mediator, and a TEDx speaker. Professor Lee is a frequent contributor to outlets such as CNN, NPR, and The Washington Post. Through her teaching and leadership, she is reshaping healthcare negotiations across both clinical and administrative domains. Thank you very much for joining me today. What legal argument has been presented to the Supreme Court regarding the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force?
Professor Stacey B. Lee: What’s interesting about this case is that one of the most widely supported provisions of the Affordable Care Act is the mandate for no-cost preventive services. The plaintiffs in this case argue that the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force (USPSTF), which identifies which services must be covered without cost-sharing, violates the Appointments Clause of the U.S. Constitution. The USPSTF is composed of volunteer experts—mostly physicians—who are appointed by the director of the Agency for Healthcare Research and Quality (AHRQ), not by the President or confirmed by the Senate. Under the ACA, insurers must follow their recommendations for certain preventive services to be covered without out-of-pocket costs. The plaintiffs argue that these recommendations have the force of law but are made by individuals not constitutionally authorized to wield such authority. They claim this delegation violates the Appointments Clause because the members are neither principal nor inferior officers appointed correctly in Article II of the Constitution. Therefore, the plaintiffs are asking the Supreme Court to invalidate the mandate on this constitutional basis.
Jacobsen: How does this test the authority of the Department of Health and Human Services (HHS)?
Lee: If the Court sides with the plaintiffs, it would significantly constrain HHS’s ability to enforce the preventive care mandate under the ACA. HHS relies on the USPSTF to determine which services must be covered without cost-sharing. If the Court ruled that the USPSTF’s authority was unconstitutional, HHS would no longer have a valid legal mechanism to enforce these mandates through that task force. Essentially, it would put HHS in a regulatory bind. They would either need Congress to amend the ACA to provide a new mechanism for determining required preventive services or restructure the task force’s appointment process to comply with constitutional requirements. The ripple effect could extend to other bodies within HHS that are similarly structured, depending on the scope of the Court’s reasoning.
Chief Justice Roberts perhaps gave a nod to something during oral arguments that might offer a potential way out. The U.S. Preventive Services Task Force is an independent body, and it was specifically designed to be independent so it could remain nonpartisan—able to make informed decisions about what constitutes preventive care without political interference. However, HHS, in theory, has no authority to direct or influence those decisions.
If the Supreme Court were to strike down the part that defines the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force as an independent agency—and instead place it under the authority of HHS—that could be a functional solution. HHS could then, theoretically, accept or reject the Task Force’s recommendations. Whether or not that’s a legal fiction, it would address the constitutional concern being raised. So that’s one path forward.
Absent that outcome, HHS could issue new regulations to re-establish the preventive services mandate, but given the current political and regulatory landscape, I’m not overly confident that would happen quickly, or at all. Even if it did happen, there would still be a gap in coverage. During that gap, insurers could choose whether to continue covering those services voluntarily. Some may say, “We’re going to keep covering this because it’s the right thing to do,” while others might say, “We’re not required to anymore, so we’re not going to.” Until new regulations are implemented, nothing obligates them to continue coverage. This could affect around 50 million Americans.
So, the two options are as follows: (1) HHS issues new regulations, which is uncertain and slow; or (2) the Court severs the independence of the Task Force and effectively brings it under the control of HHS. In theory, that would be a temporary fix—until the Fifth Circuit comes up with another legal attack on the Affordable Care Act.
Jacobsen: What precedent could this ruling set for administrative law?
Lee: Oh, this could upend everything. It could continue the trajectory we’re beginning to see where the Supreme Court is increasingly open to clawing back agency deference, particularly through the weakening or overturning of Chevron deference. That means it could significantly reduce the powers of federal agencies and challenge the legitimacy of the administrative state more broadly. Your question on administrative law is a serious one. This could call into question the role and authority of not only the U.S. Preventive Services Task Force, but also dozens of similar advisory bodies embedded across the federal government. It would make many agencies vulnerable to similar constitutional challenges.
Jacobsen: What does this mean for public health infrastructure?
Lee: I wanted to keep the questions light today, so let’s keep the answer light. Just kidding. What’s at stake is real and personal. Imagine a dad taking his daughter to get the HPV vaccine, an African American patient trying to manage his diabetes, or a veteran staying on top of preventive care. Suddenly, those visits might come with unexpected bills. Preventive care has long enjoyed bipartisan support. We’ve spent years encouraging Americans to seek it out, and if the Court sides with the plaintiffs, we will be taking a massive step backward. By now, we’ve spent years getting Americans used to the idea that preventive services—like mammograms, colonoscopies, diabetes screenings, and statins—are routine and vital. We’ve been gradually shifting the public mindset toward early intervention, so bigger health problems do not emerge later. But if this case results in rolling back the mandate, people will suddenly find surprise medical bills in their mailboxes for those very services. That would be a real step backward in our effort to improve the health of Americans.
Jacobsen: How might this case impact future policy challenges regarding the scope of federal healthcare programs?
Lee: It should make all administrative agencies nervous. A ruling like this would signal that the Supreme Court is prepared to say: unless Congress gives you specific authority to do something, you cannot do it. That undermines the jurisdiction of agencies that were intentionally structured to be independent and nonpartisan, like expert health committees. This case could call into question the legitimacy of advisory bodies that were created to insulate evidence-based decisions from political interference. And I won’t go further down that road, but yes—it would be bad. B-A-D, all caps, exclamation point, as a tweet. Bad. All bad. Sad.
Jacobsen: What is the role of medical and public health experts in defending the preventive care mandate?
Lee: It is absolutely critical. In our current political climate, these types of expert bodies—where we rely on medical professionals—are more crucial than ever. As we begin to see a cultural and political pushback against things like vaccines and preventive care, it becomes vital that we have grounded, evidence-based institutions guiding healthcare policy. These professionals help keep the system anchored in science and public health, rather than political trends.
Jacobsen: If the decision goes against the ACA, what legal or legislative strategies may preserve access to preventive care on a national scale?
Lee: The Supreme Court could strike only the part of the statute that makes the advisory body “independent”—essentially reclassifying it under HHS. That would allow HHS to take ownership of the recommendations and issue guidance accordingly. Alternatively, Congress could enact legislation explicitly establishing the authority for preventive services. But to be honest, the Braidwood plaintiffs raised two challenges. The Supreme Court is only hearing one of them: the constitutionality of how the preventive services list is created. The other challenge—one the Court chose not to listen—argues that certain preventive services violate the religious beliefs of the plaintiffs and therefore should not be mandated.
If Congress has to develop the list of preventive services from scratch, it opens the door to competing political interests. Arguments based on religious or moral objections might find a more favourable reception. The entire reason we created an independent advisory body of doctors and scientists, rather than politicians, was to base coverage decisions on evidence and not on ideology or belief systems. That independence is what’s now at risk.
Jacobsen: So how does this situation—politically, legislatively, and legally—compare to other advanced industrial economies with cosmopolitan, pluralistic values like much of Western Europe and Canada? How does this compare to contexts like those you’ve studied in your professional assessment?
Lee: One of the unique things about the United States is that our cultural and constitutional values play a significant role in shaping medical decisions. While there is often a clear medical or scientific answer to a question, our First Amendment protections mean that religious beliefs can carry equal—or in some cases, more—weight than scientifically supported recommendations. I do not think you see that same dynamic in most other countries.
For example, there are medical answers to questions such as when life begins or ends, and yet in the U.S., those answers are regularly contested in legislatures and in the courts. What makes us particularly unique is that religious belief has a constitutionally protected status, even when it may contradict scientific consensus. In many other countries, you do not see that same tension, and their laws tend to reflect a more consistently evidence-based approach to medical policy and decision-making.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Professor Lee.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/14
Rabbi Ariel Markovitch, Director of JCC Beit Menachem and founder of Shabbat Young Professionals Kyiv, shares his journey as a Jewish leader in Kyiv, Ukraine. Formerly a business development manager in Shanghai, his experiences abroad strengthened his Jewish identity and inspired his leadership. Rabbi Markovitch emphasizes the importance of Holocaust remembrance, interfaith dialogue, and education in combating antisemitism. He reflects on the challenges of community-building during wartime, the spiritual resilience of Ukraine’s Jewish community, and the relevance of traditional teachings in modern life. He discusses how faith, trust, and community have helped many navigate the psychological toll of war. Markovitch draws wisdom from Torah and Talmud, advocating values such as selflessness, compassion, and restorative joy, primarily through life events like weddings. The conversation concludes with reflections on ethical living, the importance of rest, and gratitude for meaningful connection in uncertain times.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here with Ariel Markovitch, a Jewish community leader based in Kyiv, Ukraine. He serves as the Director of JCC Beit Menachem, a Chabad-affiliated Jewish community center. He is the founder and director of Shabbat Young Professionals Kyiv, an initiative to engage young Jewish adults within the Chabad-Lubavitch movement. Before this, he worked in Shanghai as a Business Development Manager at a CLOV company. Ariel received his education at a Chabad yeshiva affiliated with the Talmidei HaT’mimim network. He actively participates in Holocaust remembrance and other Jewish community events. He often appears alongside prominent figures, including Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, to promote Jewish heritage and resilience in Ukraine. Okay, first question: What inspired you to pursue a leadership role within the Jewish community, and how has your upbringing influenced your approach to leadership?
Rabbi Ariel Markovitch: First of all, I believe this—well, it’s hard to say maybe it’s destiny—but I see it as a responsibility. We all have a role in improving the world, and I do what I can. I think, and hope, that I contribute positively by being a Jewish leader in Kyiv, Ukraine. That’s how I came to this work and what I feel called to do.
Jacobsen: What was a pivotal moment in your career that shaped your commitment to Jewish advocacy and community building?
Markovitch: It started when I was in China—specifically in Shanghai. Before that, I had studied in a Chabad yeshiva and received semicha, rabbinical ordination. I was far from my roots when I moved to Shanghai to work in business development. That distance helped me realize the importance of the Jewish community and identity. I felt a strong connection to Jewish life even more deeply from afar. I loved that feeling, and I realized that it was meaningful and fulfilling to share it with others—so I brought that energy back to Kyiv.
Jacobsen: In Shanghai, what did you learn about business development? Did you find any similarities between Chinese and Jewish cultures?
Markovitch: First of all, I hope I understood your question fully. When I arrived in Shanghai, many people told me how similar Chinese and Jewish cultures are. They noted that both ancient civilizations deeply respected tradition, family, education, and community. I loved China. There were some cultural adjustments, of course. One challenge, for example, was hospitality. In Chinese culture, offering food when welcoming someone to your customary home is impolite—it is rude if the guest does not eat.
But I keep kosher, so this creates a dilemma. What we did was simple: Before visiting someone’s home, either I or a colleague would call in advance to respectfully explain the dietary restrictions and ask if we could bring kosher food. Everyone understood, and we found a way to respect each other’s traditions. It worked well, and I still think very highly of Chinese culture—it’s beautiful and rich in values.
Jacobsen: What drew you back to Kyiv? More on an emotional level—when you look at the past three years, if not the last eleven, how do you see Jewish culture’s and people’s resilience within Ukraine?
Markovitch: Over the last eleven years, people in Ukraine—Jews and non-Jews alike—have become more Ukrainian in identity. You hear more Ukrainians being spoken in the streets. Growing up in Kyiv, I didn’t hear Ukrainian in the city. Over the past eleven or twelve years, that’s changed. You hear the language more often; people talk about it more openly.
Of course, that shift has accelerated, especially in the last two years. But one thing that hasn’t changed is that Kyiv is not only a beautiful city—it’s full of very kind and welcoming people. You can feel that.
For example, it was difficult for my wife at first. She had studied a bit of Russian before we arrived, but people in Kyiv told her, “Now you’re in Ukraine, you need to speak Ukrainian.” For me, Ukrainian is a new language, so it was challenging.
But what stood out was people’s reactions. You can see it’s not about rejecting you when you speak with someone. It’s not hostility. If anything, they accept you as you are. Maybe the right word is “respect.” So overall, the experience has been very positive. It’s made things much more manageable.
Jacobsen: As the Director of JCC Beit Menachem in Kyiv, what are the most pressing needs of the Jewish community you serve?
Markovitch: Over the past three years, the most frequent requests we’ve received have been for humanitarian aid. Unfortunately, since the war began, most of our programming has focused on distributing food, clothing, medicine—whatever we can offer. That’s been the primary focus. Before the war, we had various programs. We operated a school and a kindergarten and had many initiatives for youth and older people. But since the full-scale invasion, the urgent need has overwhelmingly been humanitarian relief.
Jacobsen: When you hear propaganda—which seems to have diminished somewhat recently—particularly in the early days of the invasion, around the narrative that President Zelensky is a neo-Nazi, what was the reaction within the Ukrainian Jewish community?
My interpretation, personally, is that it’s absurd. Zelensky was a comedian before entering politics. And now, Russia has essentially turned him into a living punchline to one of the most surreal jokes in Eastern European history—accusing a Jewish president of being a neo-Nazi during wartime.
What kind of commentary did you hear among the Jewish community in response to this propagandistic claim?
Markovitch: First of all, my personal feeling comes from family history. My father was born in Ukraine, and my grandparents were born in Uzhhorod, Ukraine. The entire family was taken to Auschwitz by the Nazis and their collaborators. Most of the family did not survive. Some did. I’m named after my great-grandfather, who was in Auschwitz.
So when people talk about Nazis, it’s not just a historical topic for me—it’s deeply personal. These are horrific stories. There are no words to describe the pain and loss. And to call someone a Nazi—it’s completely disconnected from reality. It’s a powerful word that should not be used lightly.
Frankly, there’s nothing to comment on. It’s not related to the truth in any way. And unfortunately, it’s not even something one can laugh at. It’s too painful, too serious.
Jacobsen: How do you balance traditional Jewish values with the modern, dynamic environment of Kyiv’s young professional scene?
Markovitch: That’s a good question. The younger generation in Ukraine is very dynamic and highly developed. This is reflected in the IT sector and the many international companies based here—especially in Kyiv.
Judaism here isn’t just about a Bar Mitzvah or coming to synagogue for major holidays or family events. In Kyiv, our Jewish community is like a home. We have many programs—even a soccer team, for example. People can do what they love while surrounded by good friends who respect and care for them.
Often, not just individuals connect but their families as well. It feels like a big extended family. It’s a home.
Jacobsen: How has the ongoing conflict affected antisemitism in the region?
Markovitch: I can mainly speak about Kyiv since I live here. From my perspective, I haven’t seen an increase in antisemitism. What I do see, unfortunately—including in myself—is that people are less patient. After three years of war, that’s understandable. It wears people down. However, I haven’t noticed anything that suggests an increase in antisemitism as a result of the conflict. That’s my personal experience.
Jacobsen: In your experience, what has been effective in combating antisemitism?
Markovitch: Education. Punishment is already too late. We need to prevent antisemitism before it starts—and that begins with education in schools. People need to know the facts.
We’ve discussed conspiracy theories, such as those involving the Rothschilds or others. When people are educated and know the truth, even if someone makes a joke, they recognize that it’s unreasonable and likely won’t repeat it.
Of course, we’ll never achieve 100% prevention, but education can significantly reduce the likelihood. Also, we should give voice to people who’ve suffered for their identity—not just Jewish people but anyone who has been persecuted for their faith or background. We should have lessons in schools and universities that make these experiences real and human for others. I believe that would help.
Jacobsen: What role do Holocaust education and remembrance play in your work?
Markovitch: I believe education is essential—not because people necessarily know nothing, but because we can always give people more knowledge, more depth, especially about the Holocaust.
In Kyiv, unfortunately, we have Babi Yar, the site of one of the largest massacres of Jews during the Holocaust. Many people were murdered there. Our community has a few survivors who lived through Babi Yar. They come and speak with people—especially young people—so they understand that this is not just a slogan like “Never again” without substance.
It already happened. And it did not occur a thousand years ago. It happened during the Second World War—just a few generations back. So first, we help people understand that the Holocaust was real.
Unfortunately, if we do not remain vigilant, something similar could happen again. That is why remembrance is so critical.
Jacobsen: How do you ensure that these efforts resonate with younger generations? Regardless of culture or tragedy, keeping memory alive is always a challenge—to instill a sense of history and the importance of preventing it from repeating. How do you make sure that message connects with young people?
Markovitch: First, we record videos and audio interviews with survivors. We share these stories directly with the younger generation so they can hear them firsthand.
Second, after every lecture or program, we asked the participants what they liked and didn’t. We gather feedback so we can improve future programs. We want the message to reach them truly—to enter the heart, not just the ears. And we adapt each time to make it more meaningful.
Jacobsen: Can you share a personal or family story about the Holocaust that continues to inspire your advocacy work today?
Markovitch: Yes. Probably the most challenging story for me is one my grandmother told me about her mother—my great-grandmother—who was taken by the Germans from her home in Uzhhorod, Ukraine, to Auschwitz.
Three times, they tried to kill her.
The first time, a Nazi soldier aimed and fired a gun at her—but somehow, the bullet did not go off. She was miraculously saved.
The second time, they announced they would execute a specific number of people—I don’t remember the exact number. Everyone stood in line, and she was the person just after the last one to be selected. For example, if they said they would kill ten people, she was number eleven.
The third time, something similar happened again. And each time, she survived.
She used to say, even in the darkest moments, you can see—when it is your time, it is your time. But when it is not your time, you survive, perhaps because you still have something meaningful to do.
Jacobsen: Regarding misinformation and propaganda—earlier, you mentioned that sometimes the appropriate response is no response because of how absurd such claims can be. But how else do you respond to misinformation or propaganda that distorts Jewish history or fuels antisemitism?
Markovitch: If someone wants to do something harmful, of course, that’s not acceptable. But in many cases, it’s not because we avoid the topic when we say we do not wish to comment on it.
It’s because once you begin to comment or debate something that is entirely false or absurd—like calling a Jewish leader a Nazi—you’re already legitimizing it by treating it as something reasonable enough to argue over. By entering the discussion, you open the door for someone to say, “Maybe it’s true,” or “Maybe it’s not.” And to me, that’s completely illogical.
There is no basis for it and nothing to respond to. It’s harmful, but it is so far from reality that even debating it risks giving it a false sense of legitimacy.
Jacobsen: What strategies have you found effective in fostering interfaith dialogue and cooperation in Kyiv, especially during times of crisis? You mentioned rabbinical work earlier—what has worked well in dialogue, particularly between the Jewish and Orthodox Christian communities?
Markovitch: I have several friends who are pastors and religious leaders in other communities. We’re on excellent terms—we’re friends.
I think that when someone truly believes in what they do and is a sincere and good person—someone with integrity and kindness—then dialogue becomes natural. I feel that way about them; they feel the same about me.
We may have theological differences, but we have mutual respect. That’s the key. Building bridges between communities, even during challenging times, is possible with respect and genuine goodwill.
Jacobsen: Let’s say you believe in a Creator, in God—and at the same time, there’s a long history of persecution of the Jewish people. That’s putting it mildly. Within a theological or eschatological framework—whether or not one believes in the coming of the Moshiach (Messiah)—you may still think there is purpose: a purpose for the world, a purpose for you as an individual, and a purpose for your people within the faith.
How do you make sense of that? How do you interpret such a history through a theological or humanistic lens?
Markovitch: First of all, I ask myself the same question. If you meet Him before I do—hopefully not before I turn 129!—or if you meet someone who has met Him, please ask and let me know.
I do not have a clear answer because, honestly, I don’t think there is one—not one we can truly understand.
But I believe the question of antisemitism is part of a broader question: why is there evil in the world? Why are people unkind to one another? Why do we have theft? Why do people kill? It is the same root issue. And I, like many, would love to have an answer.
There’s a well-known rabbi—Rabbi Lord Jonathan Sacks, the Chief Rabbi of Great Britain. Someone once asked him the same question: how can evil be in the world? He responded, “I don’t know—and maybe it’s good that I don’t know.”
Because if we did know, we may begin to accept evil. If we had a logical explanation for it, maybe we would come to terms with its existence—as though it belongs. But we are not supposed to accept it. We’re supposed to question it, to oppose it, and to recognize that it’s wrong.
The fact that we don’t understand why evil exists keeps us from tolerating it.
Jacobsen: Do you find any aspects of promoting Jewish identity—or navigating its complexities—difficult?
Markovitch: Most things about Judaism, I feel, don’t need to be—I don’t know the exact word in English—maybe “sold.” There’s no need to sell it because the core message is universal.
If people were good people—not necessarily keeping every detail of Jewish law, like observing Shabbat or eating kosher—but good people who followed the basic moral teachings, the world would be much better.
If people had followed even the Seven Noahide Laws—more general ethical principles for all humanity—the world would have been much improved.
Teaching those values is not hard. Most people agree when you explain them. The challenge comes not in accepting the ideas but in implementing them. Finding someone who understands or agrees with the values is not difficult. The more complicated part is helping people live by them.
That part—not always easy.
Jacobsen: Do you have difficulties maintaining multicultural unity within the Jewish diaspora? This may be a strange question. For instance, say you’re in Kyiv and meet people of the same faith and shared background. Still, they come from France, Morocco, Canada, Portugal, Uruguay, Nigeria, Ethiopia, Somalia, etc.
Do you encounter challenges in those multicultural contexts? For some people, it’s an issue. For others, it is not.
Markovitch: I do not see this as something related explicitly to Judaism but rather to people in general. Anyone who has lived in a place for several generations—say, Ethiopia or France—will naturally adopt aspects of the local culture.
When, for example, someone from France, someone from Belgium, and someone from another country are all in the same room—even if they all believe in one God—they will still have different jokes, manners, and ways of interacting. That is cultural, not religious.
But today, we are blessed to live in a time when we can travel, connect with people from many countries, and experience the rich diversity of Jewish life. For me, that’s a big plus.
Jacobsen: Are there different types of antisemitism that members of Reform Jewish communities face compared to those in Orthodox or Conservative communities?
Markovitch: I think that over the last year and a half—as we mentioned earlier—a lot of Jews have experienced antisemitic incidents, regardless of denomination. It has had nothing to do with what they believe.
In many cases, the individuals affected could not have cared less about religious observance. I’ve heard stories of people being targeted even though they had never been to a synagogue—and in some cases, they did not even know they were Jewish.
For example, children at school might say to them, “You have a Jewish name, so you must be bad.” That was the moment some of them realized they were seen as Jewish.
These incidents increased sharply, especially after October 7th.
Jacobsen: What lessons have you drawn from your work in Israel, and how has your engagement with international figures like Chief Rabbi Ephraim Mirvis or Meir Ezri Han influenced your approach to leadership?
Markovitch: When we encounter people from different countries and different perspectives, it is not just that we can learn from them—we must learn from them.
The more people, cultures, and identities we engage with, the better we understand one another. You mentioned Rabbi Mirvis, the Chief Rabbi of the UK. He is a brilliant and insightful leader. Speaking with someone like him is not just a chance to learn—it also deepens your appreciation for your community and communities abroad.
In this case, we spoke specifically about the Jewish community in England, and I gained a new perspective from that. Encounters like these broaden your point of view.
Jacobsen: What lessons did you learn from leading your community through the Russian invasion in 2022?
Markovitch: “Believe in good, and it will be good.”
It’s a straightforward sentence, but living by it is incredibly difficult.
I stayed in Kyiv with my parents, wife, and three children when the war started. We stayed together as a family, and it was tough. At one point, my wife looked at me and said, “Promise me that we will not die.” We could hear bombs outside. There were gunshots.
It was not pleasant.
I do not know—maybe it was a mistake—but I told her, “I’m not God. I can’t promise you that.” She did not like that answer, understandably so.
We went through several challenging moments. It was not easy at all. But what kept me grounded was something I learned from my grandmother, a survivor of Auschwitz: If you are still here, then you must do good. You must try to change the world.
And that starts with your immediate surroundings. That’s where your impact begins.
Especially now, I believe in being good. When we focus on good things, we don’t just shape our internal mindset—we change our environment. The people who come to us, speak with us, and share our space are affected by it—and we are, too.
I learned that from the war. I should have taught it earlier. I don’t know, but this is what that moment taught me.
Jacobsen: How do you help your community cope with the spiritual and psychological toll of the conflict?
Markovitch: We work with psychologists who come to the community to support people. A few months ago, there was a rocket attack near our school—the school my parents founded 25 years ago, the school I attended as a child.
We had a rocket strike there.
Unfortunately, it’s not the first time something like this has happened. But psychologists came to the school to help the children. Talking with the kids was hard work—especially for the professionals.
Even for me, speaking with children about what’s happening is incredibly hard. But of course, we do it. We must do it.
Especially now—in 2025—we understand that helping someone is not only about providing physical needs like food or shelter. Emotional support is just as important.
Sometimes, it’s even more critical. And we see now, more than ever, how crucial that support is. The last three years have been more complicated than I imagined when I first became a rabbi in Kyiv.
Jacobsen: What passages in the Torah have you found particularly helpful—for yourself or others—when words of encouragement have been needed during the conflict?
Markovitch: One of the most potent verses is the Shema: “Shema Yisrael, Hashem Elokeinu, Hashem Echad.”
“Hear, O Israel, the Lord is our God, the Lord is One.”
This verse teaches that there is one God; we must know that. My English may not be perfect for translating this entirely, but it is a core part of our belief.
Many people have asked me, especially those outside Ukraine, “Have you seen miracles? How can you be thankful when there is so much suffering?”
Yes, it’s true—so many people are going through unimaginable hardship. But nearly every person I’ve spoken to, from Kyiv and other parts of Ukraine, has a story of how something happened in a dark moment—something small, sometimes meaningful. And they felt God’s presence. They saw how God helped them.
If you zoom out, it may look like endless chaos. But when you zoom in, you see individual stories—moments of grace and connection, moments when someone felt they were not alone.
That’s what people have shared with me.
Jacobsen: How do you explain tragedy to your children?
Markovitch: That’s a good question. There are two aspects to it.
First, there’s the broader question of why there is evil in the world—and as I mentioned earlier, I do not have an answer to that. We all continue to wrestle with it.
Second, perhaps more critical for my children to understand is that even though tragedy exists, they must be vigilant, aware, and responsible. They must do whatever is in their power to help prevent such things from happening again. That awareness is essential.
Jacobsen: How do you collaborate with Ukrainian authorities and international organizations to counter antisemitic narratives or incidents?
Markovitch: We work closely with the Ukrainian government, and I can say this not just from personal opinion—it’s something I’ve seen consistently at every level of government: the Presidency, the Prime Minister’s Office, and the municipal level, including city mayors.
Whenever we raise concerns—if there is an antisemitic incident or something questionable—the authorities respond immediately. They act quickly to address the issue, stop the person responsible, and also take steps to prevent future incidents. I’m sincerely grateful for their continued support. They do a lot.
As for international partnerships, we work with several Jewish communities and interfaith organizations worldwide. But when it comes specifically to addressing antisemitism in Ukraine, most of the coordination happens directly with the Ukrainian government.
And because the government has been so responsive, we’ve not had much need to involve large international religious organizations in these cases.
Jacobsen: Here’s a trickier one—how do you distinguish between incidents where people are reacting emotionally to something that only seems antisemitic versus cases where it is antisemitism?
Markovitch: That’s an important distinction—and yes, we’ve encountered it. Just a few months ago, we had a situation in Kyiv where someone wrote antisemitic graffiti in multiple locations.
When we discovered it in the morning, my father, the Chief Rabbi of Kyiv, contacted the authorities immediately. They investigated, checked security cameras, and soon identified the perpetrator.
It turned out to be a 14-year-old boy.
The authorities brought him in for questioning and asked my father to come as well. When they spoke with the boy, they realized that he had been influenced—someone had reached him through Telegram, or maybe TikTok, and told him to do it.
This is what we discussed earlier—often, people act out of ignorance, not hate. They don’t know who Jewish people are or what Judaism stands for.
In this case, the boy did not appear to have malicious intent. He was misguided and very young. I do not remember the final decision, but I believe the authorities planned for him to participate in some educational programming instead of facing criminal charges. The Jewish community chose not to press charges.
My father felt—and I agree—that sending this boy to prison would likely ruin his life. He’s still a child. From what we saw, he’s not inherently bad. He needs to learn.
Yes, we do make distinctions. Some cases are explicit acts of hatred, and others—like this—are acts of ignorance. We have to find different responses for different situations. I hope we can continue to do that with wisdom and compassion.
Jacobsen: Not every part of life has a clear conclusion. Much of life feels more like James Joyce’s Ulysses—you never really know what’s happening or how it ends. There’s much incompleteness in the world.
It’s almost as if life combines a Rorschach inkblot test and Gödel’s incompleteness theorems—open to interpretation, yet fundamentally unresolvable in parts.
Are there any incidents you’ve encountered that seemed like antisemitism—had all the markings—but you never got a conclusive answer? Something that left you wondering?
Markovitch: When something happens, it’s important to remember that two people can witness the same event and come away with entirely different interpretations of what happened.
Many times, if it’s not a clear-cut, harmful, or explicitly antisemitic act, then we have to ask—maybe it’s just us. Perhaps it’s how we saw it.
Of course, we cannot accuse anyone without evidence, especially if we are not even sure anything happened. So yes, there are ambiguous cases, and we’re left with maybes.
Jacobsen: What do you think is the role of Jewish cultural heritage in shaping Ukrainian national identity?
My professional example is that our mutual colleague Anna Vishnikova pointed out that some Christian communities wanted only Christian symbols to memorialize Maidan Square or Independence Square. To them, only the cross represented Ukrainian identity.
They believed there should not be menorahs. And to me, that’s not correct.
In more nuanced terms, how do you see Jewish cultural heritage being integrated into Ukrainian national heritage?
Markovitch: I don’t know the exact details of the story involving Maidan. But in general, in every country—and especially in Ukraine, which is very democratic—there is space for people to live together peacefully.
It’s essential to have interfaith meetings and dialogues so that people can get to know one another or at least understand that we are not just individuals living in one country. We are Christian Ukrainians, Muslim Ukrainians, and Jewish Ukrainians—and that’s okay.
That’s exactly how it’s supposed to be. That’s what a democratic society looks like. So I don’t just think we should have that level of integration—I believe we already do.
Jacobsen: How do you integrate Chabad’s spiritual teachings into your daily leadership?
Markovitch: Just one quick correction—it’s Chabad, not Sha-Bad.
Jacobsen: I anglicized it—I’m Canadian. I’m foreign. I don’t know any better!
Markovitch: [Laughing] I thought it was Sha-Bad before someone told me, so it’s okay. As for Chabad, the Talmud contains many stories that shape how we see leadership and relationships. For example, there’s a story about one person building a house, and then his neighbour also builds a house… There’s a story in the Talmud that initially seems simple.
Two neighbours build houses next to each other, and suddenly, one wants to make a wall between the homes—either to block the view or mark property lines. One neighbour wants the wall, and the other does not. They argue.
That’s the entire premise. And yes, it’s a long story, but that’s the situation we study today in the Talmud.
People ask, “Why should I care? This story was written over two thousand years ago. What does it have to do with me?”We might even joke about it: today, we talk about a wall between the U.S. and Mexico—why should this ancient wall matter?
But every story in the Talmud has layers. At first glance, it seems like a story about two neighbours—disconnected. But the truth is, it’s not just a story—it’s a framework for law, and it’s deeply relevant.
For example, in that story, one neighbour says: “I don’t like when my neighbour can see into my house. He opens his window and watches what I do. I want to build a wall.” But the wall would benefit both of them, so he wants shared responsibility—he does not want to pay for the entire wall himself.
The Talmud says that if the wall is one or two meters high, both neighbours must contribute financially—it’s a shared interest. But if one wants the wall to be even higher, that neighbour must pay for the additional height himself. It’s fair, proportional, and balanced.
From that single story, we derive so much modern legal wisdom.
For instance, what if someone looks at your computer screen, reads your messages, or invades your digital privacy? What if someone looks at you in a way that makes you uncomfortable? Is that a crime? What kind of boundaries should exist?
We can trace the roots of these questions back to Talmudic principles. At first, they may seem outdated, but when you understand the spirit of the law, you see how powerful and relevant it remains today.
So yes—when we reduce these stories to surface-level anecdotes, they seem unimportant. But digging deeper, we find ethical structure, legal precedent, and moral insight that still guide us today.
Jacobsen: What facets of Judaism are uniquely Jewish regarding ethics? Perhaps even the aesthetic of that ethic—its moral symmetry, the way it looks and feels in daily life.
Markovitch: Of course, we can start with someone like Moses, especially now—we’re just a few days away from Passover, the Jewish holiday of Pesach. So, of course, we can talk about Moses. He was the great figure of that time—the leader, the liberator.
But if I look at recent history or even what’s happening in the present, I think of Rabbi Menachem Mendel Schneerson, the Lubavitcher Rebbe. He was born in Ukraine, later moved to the United States, and became the leader of the Chabad movement, which now includes Chabad Young Professionals.
He fundamentally transformed Judaism. He didn’t see it as ancient or static. He emphasized that we should live Judaism today, in 2025, just as meaningfully as it was thousands of years ago.
That’s one part of his legacy. The second is that he envisioned a Jewish community in every country—and, in many cases, in nearly every city. It’s not everywhere yet, but in so many places, you can arrive and find a community, a spiritual family waiting for you. That is a massive gift to Jewish life.
Jacobsen: What would you rank as the highest value in Judaism?
Markovitch: Not me. The highest value is not about me.
Jacobsen: So selflessness—to live for something greater than yourself. That’s what I thought. Thank you for bearing with me—I’m making this conversation more than just about antisemitism. I’m trying to explore the deeper dimensions of Jewish thought, heritage, and resilience.
So now we’ve talked about God—particularly the theological premise of divine attributes, like benevolence and all-encompassing goodness.
But antisemitism isn’t just a personal experience; it often strikes at something more profound. For Jewish people who are practicing or connected to their faith, when they’re confronted with an antisemitic slur or act of violence, it can trigger a crisis of faith.
This happens in many religions. Have you seen it happen? Do people come to you struggling with faith under these circumstances?
Markovitch: Yes, of course—it happens.
The most powerful example we have is after the Holocaust. We saw so many people respond in entirely different ways. Some people began to believe more deeply, while others moved away from belief altogether.
I’ve noticed here in Ukraine, especially over the last three years, that more and more people have started to believe more, not less.
And maybe it’s not precisely belief—perhaps something more profound. People have told me, “We’ve started to understand that we are not in control of anything,” even when we think we are.
If you look at just the last five years, we had so many plans—career plans, travel plans, business goals—and then came COVID. And with it, we realized that nothing is really in our hands.
Even now, some countries still haven’t fully recovered from the pandemic. And then came the war in Ukraine. We started again—new plans, new ideas—and once more, everything was disrupted.
So what happened? Many people began to believe, or more accurately, to trust.
There’s a big difference between belief and trust. Belief is intellectual. “Yes, I believe in God—why not?” But trust is different. Trust is knowing in your heart that there is something, someone, more significant than yourself at work in the world.
According to Judaism, trust does not mean sitting at home waiting for good things to happen. You still have to work hard, take action, and do your part. But at the same time, you come to that work with humility. You are not the king. You are not the one who decides everything.
So yes, I’ve seen this shift—especially over the last five years, but even more recently. More and more people are beginning to believe and trust.
Jacobsen: How do you comfort your children in difficult circumstances—war or hardship?
Markovitch: It depends—it depends on their age. Of course, there’s a big difference between what you can explain to a two-year-old versus a ten-year-old.
But what we do know—unfortunately—is that we don’t live in a perfect world. There’s no question about it—we’ve seen it more clearly than we ever wanted to. This is not an ideal world.\ But that realization shows how much more work we have to do. We cannot just live in our little space and do nothing for society.
This moment in history shows us that we must engage. And the truth is, it’s easier today than ever before. As you mentioned earlier, even if someone lives in a small town in Canada, they can still change the world.
With the Internet and platforms like Skype, we’re connected—it’s the same as living in a major city. Everyone has an opportunity to contribute. So yes, the world is far from perfect. But that means we must all do our part to make it better.
Jacobsen: Let’s close on a hopeful note. Do you still perform weddings during the war?
Markovitch: Yes, we do.
Jacobsen: That’s incredible. Do you try to lighten the mood during those weddings, even in the middle of a war?
Markovitch: Of course, it’s a different atmosphere. You have your mood, and then there’s the general mood around you.
But I think it’s essential for all of us to pause occasionally and work on our emotional state—to improve. It doesn’t mean we care less when in a good mood; being in a good mood helps us function better. Think about an exam—if you’re in a good state of mind, you’re more likely to remember more. It affects the brain.
I’m not talking about going to nightclubs or anything like that. But weddings—that’s a form of joyful resilience. It’s pure happiness. It brings life into the world and gives us hope for the future.
This kind of happiness? I’d gladly have it every night.
Jacobsen: To wrap up, what are some of your favourite lines from the Talmud or your favourite phrases of Jewish wisdom? Even just words of comfort—whatever you feel would be a meaningful close.
Markovitch: There are two that I love.
First: “What you do not want others to do to you, do not do to them.”
I hope that’s clear. If you don’t want something done to you, don’t do it to others. It’s a simple phrase, but it carries so much meaning.
Of course, it teaches you to be a good person, but it also pushes you to think about others—to consider how they will feel and how they might perceive your actions. Even though it’s phrased negatively, it’s deeply empathetic.
The second is from the Torah, which speaks about Shabbat. It says, “Six days you shall work, and on the seventh day, you shall rest.”
I love that the Torah doesn’t just say, “Don’t work on Shabbat.” It says, “Six days you must work.” In other words, you must do your part, contribute to the world—and then rest.
It’s a balanced ethic: work with intention and then rest with purpose.
The Torah teaches: “Six days you shall work.” That means you actually must work. You must do whatever you can to succeed in your field—whatever that may be.
If you’re a student, you must study with dedication. If you work—whatever your profession—you should give it your full effort, 100%.
But then comes the seventh day—Shabbat—and you must rest.
The idea is that we rest because God rested on the seventh day. That’s why we pause and stop our work.
And it’s not always easy. We’re often in the middle of something, and stepping away is hard. But just as we put our whole emotion, energy, and focus into our work for six days, we must also internalize that not everything depends on us.
We must understand that we need God’s help to be successful in what we do. That’s part of the balance—work hard and let go.
Jacobsen: All right. Thank you very much for your time, Ariel. It’s been a pleasure to meet you. I hope you have a meaningful and fun Passover coming up.
Markovitch: Thank you very much.
Jacobsen: We’ll be in touch.
Markovitch: Thank you. Bye-bye.
Jacobsen: Thank you.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/13
Dennis Bevington is a former Member of Parliament for the Western Arctic (2006–2015) and a long-time resident and former mayor of Fort Smith, Northwest Territories. In this in-depth interview, he reflects on the complex history of Fort Smith, including its role in the residential and day school systems, the evolution of Indigenous self-governance, and the rise of the Tábatsı́cha Leadership Council—a unique collaboration among local governments. Bevington discusses the town’s transformation from a portage hub to a government and education center, highlighting housing, education, and Indigenous representation improvements. He shares insights into community tensions, historical injustices, and the value of pluralistic governance. Bevington also explores Mark Carney’s Fort Smith roots and the significance of Carney’s public reflections on his birthplace. Drawing from personal and political experience, Bevington emphasizes collaboration, critical thinking, and shared leadership as essential to building resilient northern communities in the face of ongoing challenges.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are speaking with Dennis Bevington, a former Member of Parliament and long-time resident of Fort Smith, Northwest Territories. Dennis, what are your thoughts on how Fort Smith has been portrayed recently in major Canadian news outlets?
Dennis Bevington: Well, people in this community are undoubtedly interested that Mark Carney, now a prominent public figure and potential future political leader, was born here and lived in Fort Smith for the first six years of his life. I went to school when his father, Bob Carney, was the principal of the elementary school I attended.
I did not know Mark as a child—we had a ten-year age gap, so we did not interact. However, it is interesting. As a Member of Parliament representing the Western Arctic from 2006 to 2015, I met Mark a few times. He often expressed pride in his birthplace. Despite his high-profile roles—as Governor of the Bank of Canada and later Governor of the Bank of England—he maintained a strong identity connected to being born in the Northwest Territories.
I remember attending a significant event in Ottawa where Senator Mike Duffy, a Conservative, introduced the Members of Parliament in the room. When he got to me, he said, “Here is the second most famous person from Fort Smith, Northwest Territories.” That was back in 2008, and even then, Mark Carney’s roots here were something people noted.
In 2010, Peter Martselos, the mayor of Fort Smith at the time, invited Mark to visit. He accepted and came up—not for any financial matter, despite being the sitting Governor of the Bank of Canada at the time—but simply because it was his hometown. That visit reaffirmed his connection to Fort Smith. It is a town of about 2,500 people, located on the edge of Wood Buffalo National Park, and sits along the Slave River, which carries around 80% of the water leaving Alberta. It is a significant and mighty river.
Historically, Fort Smith developed as a portage town due to the Slave River Rapids, a 22-mile stretch of dangerous whitewater that prevented boats from travelling through directly. Anyone heading north—whether traders, explorers, or Indigenous peoples—had to portage their canoes and supplies around the rapids using overland routes. The route was physically demanding and vital for northern access, and Fort Smith grew around that transportation need.
This area has been home to Indigenous peoples for thousands of years. A friend who lives by the river found a stone knife in his garden, later identified as being between 4,000 and 7,000 years old. It is a powerful reminder of the long history of human settlement here.
Below the rapids, the river is rich in fish that migrate up from Great Slave Lake—it has always been an important fishing ground. There are still herds of wood bison in the area, which are protected within the Wood Buffalo National Park boundaries. We used to see moose and caribou pass through more frequently, though less so today.
Historically, this land was contested between different Indigenous nations. The Tłı̨chǫ (Dogrib) people once inhabited parts of this area, but they were pushed northward. Traditionally living in the forests to the south, the Cree moved into the region. The Chipewyan (Dënesųłiné) also have historical and ongoing ties to this land. These dynamics reflect the deep and complex history of the region’s Indigenous presence, trade, and conflict.
This was the western edge of the Chipewyan (Dënesųłiné) nation, which historically stretched from Hudson Bay to this region. So, it has always been a gathering point for Indigenous peoples. It was a valuable area—a natural salt source here that had likely been mined for thousands of years. People always needed salt, and this was one of the few places to get it.
This area was also significant during the fur trade. To bring furs down from the North, you had to portage around the Slave River rapids here. A community grew around that need, and until 1967, Fort Smith was expected to become the capital of the Northwest Territories. However, the Carruthers Commission, appointed under Prime Minister Lester B. Pearson’s Liberal government, placed the capital in Yellowknife instead.
At the same time, the rail line was extended north from Peace River to Hay River, shifting the leading freight and barge routes away from Fort Smith. Then in 1968, there was a catastrophic riverbank collapse. We’re sitting about 20 feet above the river here, and geologically, it’s quite interesting. The Canadian Shield emerges from beneath the Great Plains in this area. On one side of the river, it’s all soil; on the other side and across the river, it’s all rock.
The landslide in 1968 hit the town hard—it was like three strikes all at once: losing the capital designation, losing the shipping economy, and suffering a major geographic setback. However, the town has recovered, largely thanks to Indigenous communities’ continued growing presence, especially as they began asserting their rights in the early 1970s under Treaty 8.
Some remarkable Indigenous leaders emerged from Fort Smith, like François Paulette and Jerry Cheezie. They were instrumental in promoting the recognition that Indigenous people had rights to the land. In the early 1970s, Dene and Métis leaders across the Northwest Territories united to form what became known as the Dene-Métis claims. It was a collective political movement, including Métis voices alongside Dene First Nations.
Over the years, the federal government worked to dissolve that unified movement by creating separate agreements with individual First Nations throughout the territory. However, because the government initially recognized the Dene-Métis claim as a unified body, the Métis people now have a stronger legal position than perhaps the federal government anticipated or desired. Métis rights are still a sensitive and complex issue. Bureaucrats and federal departments are wary of establishing broad settlements with Métis communities because such settlements could have implications across the country.
So that’s a little thumbnail sketch of Fort Smith. Since the 1970s, we’ve developed as an education and government service center. In terms of housing and overall cost of living, Fort Smith is the least expensive community in the Northwest Territories, which makes it attractive to many people. It’s a comfortable town surrounded by beautiful forest, and it serves as the headquarters for Wood Buffalo National Park and several other institutions that keep the community alive.
I hope that the little diatribe covered some of Fort Smith’s details, though Fort Smith helped tell its own story.
Jacobsen: Looking at the imagery in mainstream Canadian media—and I say this as someone who hasn’t been to Fort Smith but has lived in small towns across Canada—it seems Canada’s most enormous divide is probably between rural and urban life. Small towns tend to share a similar feeling. They each have their character, but how people are tends to feel familiar. How have integration efforts, both formal and informal, played out in Fort Smith—between Indigenous and non-Indigenous people, and perhaps also across socioeconomic lines?
Bevington: Being an education center has made a significant difference for Indigenous people. The Indigenous population in Fort Smith—both Métis and First Nations—makes up just over 50% of the community. It’s a long-established population. Many families have lived here for generations. And as a historic portage town, the community has always been accustomed to newcomers and people coming and going. So, while it may not have that same tight-knit feel as, say, a traditional Alberta farming town, it’s open and used to change.
There are about 700 well-paying government jobs here. The Government of the Northwest Territories has long aimed to increase Indigenous representation in its workforce, and Fort Smith reflects that goal. Many Indigenous residents hold strong positions within the public service.
Some people work in the diamond mines, flying in for two-week shifts and returning home for two weeks. So, overall, the employment base is solid. That wasn’t always the case. When I was growing up, things were very different. Many Indigenous families were still closely tied to the land. Hunting and trapping were major occupations. That’s changed—it’s less central now, but still something people do to stay connected.
Back then, housing conditions were much worse. Overcrowding was a real problem in many Indigenous homes. The population of Fort Smith has stayed relatively stable, but we now have twice as many houses as we did then. That expansion in housing has been crucial to building a stronger, more equitable community. Across Canada, people now recognize how critical housing is to social development, and our housing outcomes here are pretty good.
That’s been important, but so has education. We have a college here—Aurora College—which was the first and remains the only college in the Northwest Territories. The original campus is in Fort Smith, though satellite campuses now exist in Yellowknife and Inuvik. The college has played a key role in opening up career paths for residents, particularly in natural resources and teacher education.
The most successful teacher education program for Indigenous people in the Northwest Territories was set up in Fort Smith and ran for many years. Unfortunately, over the last fifteen years, government bureaucrats have managed to dismantle much of that success.
We had many students coming from all over the North. In many small Indigenous communities—places with populations of 500 or fewer—there was a strong desire to keep children at home. But running an elementary and a high school in such small communities is a real challenge. There are not enough teachers or resources to make it sustainable. So, a lot of the work at the college involved bringing students from across the territory, including Fort Smith, up to a certain level in their education. And that, too, was successful.
When I was growing up here, we had elementary and high schools. At different points in time, there were also two residential school units. One was called Bryn Mawr Hall—though many people called it Brynnet Hall—and it was the first of the two. It operated like a traditional residential school, run by Catholic priests and nuns.
Children across the North were brought to Fort Smith, sometimes without speaking English, and placed in this residential facility. Now, Brynnet Hall does not have the same widespread reputation for abuse as some of the more notorious residential schools across Canada. It certainly was not a warm or kind place, but in retrospect, the conditions may not have been as dire as elsewhere. One possible reason is that the bishop of the Roman Catholic Diocese was based in Fort Smith, and the federal Department of Education, often staffed by people from southern Canada—many from Ottawa—had a presence here too. That combination may have led to greater oversight.
In the early 1960s, a more progressive bishop, Bishop Piché, established Grandin College. He wanted to create a higher-level residential school for academically strong Indigenous students across the Northwest Territories. They built an impressive facility—one of the finest in the North. Students were selected for their academic potential, often without much regard for whether they wanted to attend. The Church saw it as an opportunity to train future priests.
That specific aim did not pan out, but Grandin College became a successful and influential institution. It brought together bright, motivated Indigenous youth from many communities. As a teenager, I spent much time at Grandin, speaking with students full of energy, intelligence, and curiosity. They were always eager to discuss ideas, and those conversations were deeply formative for me. Being around them was one of the high points of my high school years.
You didn’t see the current health issues in those days. The Indigenous students from these communities were strong, active, and fit. They were also often outstanding athletes. They came from land-based lifestyles that built resilience.
They were tremendous in that regard. The kind of diet promoted by the Northern Store or Hudson’s Bay Company hadn’t yet reached the kids from the smaller communities. Their diets were still largely traditional, based on what their families had eaten for generations. They were healthy, strong, and naturally athletic.
In 1967, for Canada’s Centennial, the government launched the Canada Fitness Awards, which were conducted in every school nationwide. Our school had an unusually high number of gold medal athletes, more per capita than almost any other. That was primarily thanks to these young people who had grown up in traditional ways that aligned with their physiology. Looking back on it, it was remarkable how physically fit and capable they were.
At that time, Grandin College and Brynnet Hall operated side by side. There was a fundamental distinction between the two institutions, and unfortunately, that divide was often reinforced in the school system. It was not ideal, but it was the reality of the time.
Many of the prominent Indigenous leaders of my generation came out of Grandin College, including Ethel Blondin-Andrew, who later became a Member of Parliament; Stephen Kakfwi, who served as Premier of the Northwest Territories; and Jim Antoine, also a former Premier. Others returned to their communities and became chiefs or held other forms of leadership. The school produced a generation of influential Indigenous voices.
Jacobsen: Earlier, you mentioned how well-suited these students were to their environment, especially regarding health and athleticism, which are less common today. You also described the legacy of Grandin College and Brynnet Hall. That’s helpful context. Outside of the recent media coverage, has Fort Smith historically been politicized in the way it is now? You also mentioned its position on the edge of traditional territories. Was this region a political or cultural hub even before European contact?
Bevington: As far as we know, yes. As I mentioned earlier, there are artifacts in the area, like the ancient stone knife found near the river, that date back thousands of years. The rapids, the abundance of fish, and the geography made this a crucial gathering point. Fish provided a consistent and rich source of protein.
At one point, reportedly, 90,000 Chipewyan people lived across Northern Canada. In such a vast region, Indigenous peoples needed to use every available food source, and places like this, with concentrated resources, were especially valuable. That made this area strategically important.
There were indeed territorial conflicts. About 100 kilometres south of here, on the Peace River, is a place called Peace Point. It is historically significant because it was the site of battles between the Cree and Chipewyan. Eventually, the two groups signed a peace treaty at that location, ending the conflict over this region.
So yes, long before European contact, this area was already a place of meeting, negotiation, and strategic importance, as you suggested earlier. It was not just a place to mine salt or fish—it was a natural hub for the people of the North.
This isn’t limited to the current townsite—it spans a broader area. Interestingly, many Métis people moved to Fort Smith after the Riel Rebellion. Some can trace their ancestry back to those who fought with Louis Riel and later fled federal persecution by relocating far from the central provinces. That migration helped establish a substantial Métis population here.
Many were in seasonal freighting, transporting goods across the North during the summer. They were hunters and trappers, but their role in the northern supply chain was vital during the open-water season.
As I mentioned, the Church and the federal government established their headquarters in Fort Smith. Until 1968, this town was a major center of political and administrative activity in the North.
Jacobsen: The last question touched on the geographic and sociopolitical context of Fort Smith—how it evolved from a pre-contact gathering point to a modern administrative hub. Building on that, how has the perception of the federal government changed in Fort Smith over the decades? You’ve studied the history closely, and with your experience as a Member of Parliament. I imagine you’ve seen this shift firsthand.
Bevington: The most significant change in the perception of government here in Fort Smith—and across the Northwest Territories—has been the resurgence of Indigenous identity and self-determination. Indigenous people have reclaimed their place, their rights, and their ownership in ways that were unimaginable when I was a child.
In the early 1960s, Indigenous voices weren’t part of the public agenda. The town was run almost entirely by white settlers, most focused on development. The local Royal Canadian Legion was full of World War II veterans—every pro-Canada, pro-federal government. When I was growing up, Canada Day on July 1st was the biggest celebration in town. It still is important, but in those days, it was massive.
Indigenous people were treated as second-class citizens, socially and politically. That has changed dramatically over the last 30 to 40 years. Today, the two local First Nations and the Métis Nation have come together to form Tábatsı́cha, the traditional name for this area. It means “below the rapids.”
This partnership marks a decisive shift in community leadership and how the federal government is perceived. It used to be an external authority. Now, the community plays a far greater role in shaping its future through land claims, self-government agreements, and Indigenous-led governance.
The area’s name in Chipewyan is Tábatsı́cha, and from that has come the Tábatsı́cha Leadership Council. This is quite unique in the Northwest Territories and, in my view, one of the best developments to happen here in a long time. It represents Indigenous governments coming together to settle their own issues—something that did not always happen easily.
As Indigenous communities gained more power and influence, many internal divisions emerged. There was infighting, with different individuals and groups vying for leadership as rights and privileges were increasingly recognized. That caused much tension over the years within Indigenous organizations. But things are changing now.
The current form of the Tábatsı́cha Leadership Council is a strong and positive step forward. It reflects a shift toward collaboration: instead of turning inward, the four local governments—two First Nations, the Métis Nation, and the Town of Fort Smith—are working together. Each has a say in what happens here. It is a move toward shared governance, and I believe it serves as a model for other communities navigating the rise of strong Indigenous governments. To succeed, governments must share power and be willing to share it.
Jacobsen: What is the current style of tension between the governments in that sense? And what are culturally appropriate ways in which conflict tends to be resolved?
Bevington: I can give you some examples from my time as mayor. I served from 1988 to 1997. During that period, Indigenous organizations were still finding their footing. Initially, there was only one band, but over time, it split into two—one representing primarily Cree people and the other representing Dene (Chipewyan) people. That split along cultural and linguistic lines has since become firmly entrenched.
For a long time after that, there was very little cooperation between the two First Nations bands. Meanwhile, the Métis Nation also grew in political stature. There’s also a significant Métis population here, but they tended to operate independently. That said, they were more integrated with the municipal government. When I was mayor, several Métis individuals served on the town council.
One of the most important things we did early in my tenure was to declare four official languages in Fort Smith: Cree, Chipewyan, French, and English. You might have seen the stop signs around town—they are written in all four languages. That declaration was made in 1993, and it sent a clear message that all four linguistic and cultural groups had a place here.
Historically, the presence of the Catholic mission and the bishopric contributed to a strong French influence in Fort Smith. The Métis community also used a French-based colloquial language, so French was a natural inclusion. And there are interesting linguistic overlaps. For example, many First Nations languages, including Dene, traditionally had no specific word for “thank you.” Today, people commonly use the word marsi, derived from the French merci. It reflects a kind of cultural blending that’s part of our local identity.
The four-language policy was a meaningful step toward cultural recognition and inclusion. It worked well because it acknowledged the reality of who lives here and what languages are spoken. It helped build respect.
There was a period when the federal government pushed hard to create reserves, which divided the community. It was a difficult time, but we’ve moved past that now.
Today, the Indigenous governments in this region are well-established, and they are returning to a more collaborative approach with each other, with the Métis Nation, and with the Town of Fort Smith. The fact that the town now shares decision-making on infrastructure and other issues with the three other governments is remarkable in a Canadian context.
It is a genuinely helpful and hopeful development, and I’m proud to see it take root here. Interestingly, I now see that Inuvik, another community in the Northwest Territories, is considering a similar approach. Inuvik reminds me of Fort Smith in some ways. It is home to both Inuvialuit and Gwich’in peoples, with some Métis presence, and about half the population is non-Indigenous.
Inuvik has long experienced tension between First Nations and Inuit communities, and I’m happy to see them starting to think about shared governance. It is essential. These Indigenous governments are growing stronger. They have resources and the ability to act—but in small communities, you cannot afford to operate in four separate silos. You need integration. You need collaboration.
There are a few examples elsewhere of communities trying to do this. Duncan, B.C., comes to mind as an example of some level of government cooperation. There are others in southern Canada, though none immediately stand out.
Jacobsen: What are the challenges of managing that kind of plurality? There is strength in inclusive representation—of language, culture, and leadership—but are there difficulties regarding decision-making, differing governance styles, or visions for the future? Did your experience as mayor shed light on this?
Bevington: Absolutely. I remember one particular challenge. We had been working for several years to develop a community recreation center. We had the design, the land, and I’d secured enough funding to move forward. Then, at the final stage, the chief of the combined band raised objections.
He said the band should receive a share of the funding to pursue its goals. It was a tough moment. We used the money to build a central recreation facility for the whole community, or we split it and risked not having enough to do anything meaningful. I wanted to share, of course, but if I had divided the funds, the project would have collapsed.
That was one of those moments when you had to make a difficult leadership decision. We held a referendum, and the community supported the project by 70%. So we went ahead and built the facility. Today, it is well-used by everyone in the community—Indigenous and non-Indigenous.
It’s a large, 43,000-square-foot building. We built it for just over $4 million, which would cost about $40 million to replace today. It was a considerable achievement, and it was built entirely by local people, with an architect who worked closely and respectfully with the community. It stands as a great example of what we can do together, even when the path is difficult.
He was a good guy and very accommodating. He understood what we needed to do to get the project done. We also had a local project manager who was just starting and wanted to establish his reputation in the community. He did a fantastic job and landed many of the big building contracts in Fort Smith. That recreation center project launched his career.
We built the recreation facility at an incredibly low cost. I chaired the construction committee, so I know exactly how we did it. Much of it was due to community involvement—local people ensured the work got done well.
Nobody lost money on the project, but nobody made a fortune. It was a great project—one that brought the town together.
Here’s another example. One time, I secured half a million dollars in community development funding. A Métis contact said, “We don’t have a proper office building. We need support too.” I made a deal with them—we allocated a third of the money to the Métis, and they used it to build their office.
That was early on, before we had formalized shared planning. I went in front of the town council and explained the plan. A couple of Métis councillors were at the table, so it passed without much resistance. Since then, they’ve built other office buildings and continued doing well.
However, under a traditional town model, that funding would have been viewed strictly as “municipal money”—to be used as the town saw fit. Instead, we began building a sharing model, and that’s become essential. Without Indigenous support, you cannot get much done anymore. Their governments have become more powerful, knowledgeable, and engaged in community affairs. So, relationships and mutual respect are crucial.
Jacobsen: That brings us closer to the core of today’s interview, specifically, the Carney family’s history in Fort Smith and the implications of recent political developments. We now have Mark Carney, born in Fort Smith, as the Leader of the Liberal Party of Canada, not merely interim but officially elected.
As we begin this portion of the conversation, I want to acknowledge that for some, these topics remain sensitive, mainly when we discuss education systems imposed on Indigenous people. But I appreciate your openness and want to treat this subject accurately and carefully.
Two important concepts are discussed here: the federal day schools and the more widely known residential school system. Both played roles in Canadian history, but how were they distinct in Fort Smith?
Bevington: The residential school system was a terrible chapter in Canadian history. It was both a bureaucratic and religious effort to forcibly assimilate Indigenous peoples into Euro-Canadian culture. And yes, it happened here in Fort Smith.
As I mentioned earlier, Brynnet Hall was the local residential school. However, Fort Smith also had a day school system alongside it. From the 1880s onward, this community had a significant population of non-Indigenous families living and working here, many with their children. So there was always a dual track of education, which I imagine was similar in other parts of Canada, too.
That’s why we saw these hybrid versions of the residential school model in Fort Smith. Fort Smith was probably one of the few places with a somewhat distinct arrangement in the Northwest Territories. For example, Yellowknife, which had a large residential school in the 1950s and ’60s, didn’t have that hybrid structure. Yellowknife didn’t become much of a settlement until later—it wasn’t established at the turn of the 20th century.
Fort Simpson had a residential school but lacked a significant non-Indigenous population. The same was true in Aklavik, the main settlement in the Mackenzie Delta region on the Arctic coast, before Inuvik was created in the 1950s. Inuvik later had a residential school with a very negative reputation, as did the schools in Fort Simpson and Fort Resolution. Fort Chipewyan also faced its challenges.
There were residential schools throughout the North, but Fort Smith was unique because it had a larger white population from early on. That made it different—not better, just different—and carried through the decades. When I went to school here, it was during what I call the Robert Carney era.
Carney came from southern Canada to serve as the school principal in Fort Smith. He later moved to Yellowknife when it became the capital and rose to a senior role in the Department of Education. He entered the system when there was more oversight in Fort Smith than in many other northern communities, at least over conduct in the residential schools. But it was still a residential school system, and Indigenous children here were affected just the same.
What was particularly troubling was that, even though we had a well-established and relatively high-quality public school in Fort Smith—arguably the best in the Northwest Territories at the time—Indigenous children were often sent away to residential schools in other places, especially to Yellowknife in the 1950s. Many kids I grew up with—kids I played Little League baseball with and saw around town—weren’t part of our school population. They were removed from the community for education elsewhere.
The psychological and emotional impact of that was as damaging here as anywhere else. When you attend a residential school as a child from what white society regarded as a “secondary” population, you’re not treated with dignity. You’re not valued. These were not warm or welcoming places for most Indigenous students.
I remember one boy, Henry Boulio, who had come from Yellowknife. We’ve been friends for many years. One day, at school lunch, I had this oversized lunch my mother packed—she always thought I was starving—and I shared some with him. Years later, he said, “You didn’t make a fuss. You just gave me food. You didn’t act like you were above me.”
He said that felt natural, like how Indigenous people share quietly, respectfully, without expectation or performance. It made an impression. In many First Nations languages, there’s no direct word for “thank you.” Gratitude is expressed through collective action, not formalities. That cultural framework is essential for people to understand—it reflects a different way of being, rooted in mutual responsibility, not transactional exchange.
So yes, Robert Carney was part of that system. He was a strong Catholic and wouldn’t have openly gone against the Church. But he was also well-educated, in the Canadian sense of that era. From what I could see, he was pretty liberal for the time.
His whole background was with the Liberal Party, so I imagine he aligned with Trudeau’s government and others who, at the time, promoted assimilation policies. He was in a position—running a school—where he could see what was going on, but the environment may have shaped how he interpreted it.
Fort Smith had one of the “better” examples of a residential school. That may have clouded his understanding of how damaging the broader system was. Because of the local context, he may have thought, “Well, this isn’t so bad,” and carried that view forward. From what I’ve heard, he became a defender of the system, suggesting it was not entirely harmful, which, of course, ignored the devastating reality in many other communities.
People are essentially products of their environments, especially when new to a place. You don’t always have the depth of knowledge needed to assess what’s happening around you critically. I do not think he was a strong critic of the system. Instead, he seemed to think it was helping, at least in his immediate surroundings.
That was the general atmosphere in the early 1960s. Fort Smith was still a white-dominated community, populated by individuals who held authority across the North. The RCMP inspector was based here, and many federal departments had northern offices. It was also the political base where the Liberal Party brought Bud Orange, grooming him to become the local Member of Parliament. He was elected in 1968, during the first Trudeau era.
That was the setting Mark Carney’s father entered into. He likely was not one to rock the boat too much. However, a critical development during his early years here was that the nuns stopped teaching at the local school.
I had a nun as a Grade One teacher. She was kind, but unusual—she was not there because education was her passion. Her role as a nun shaped her identity, creating a distance between her and the students. Over time, the staffing changed dramatically.
We began to have teachers from all over the world. I had an impressive teacher from Kenya and a white woman from South Africa who was outspokenly anti-apartheid. One couple came directly from Israel and taught at the school. We had a physical education teacher from Australia who was a firm believer in corporal punishment—a harsh approach, even for those days.
The teacher population here was quite diverse, and that was reflective of the North more generally. People often came up here out of a sense of adventure or to contribute to something meaningful. The man from Israel, for example, was remarkable at building school spirit. Around 1968, he organized an “Olympiata”—an Olympic-style event where the whole school was divided into three teams, and every child was involved.
The “Olympiata” lasted about a week and included various activities. It was an integrated event, and it was genuinely suitable for everyone. There wasn’t a sense of division, especially by that time. When Grandin College opened, the school’s integration level improved significantly. Those students were competent, top of their class, and often the best athletes. They naturally emerged as leaders, and that had a positive impact on the broader school community.
Jacobsen: Was there much discussion in the town during your time about Robert Carney, Mark Carney’s father?
Bevington: Not really. People here are mostly just pleased that we now have a prime minister who was born in Fort Smith and acknowledges that fact publicly. That’s something the community takes pride in.
We’ve always had strong federal connections here. Wood Buffalo National Park, for example, takes up most of the land surrounding Fort Smith. In terms of funding, about 80% of the Northwest Territories’ budget comes from the federal government. So, the relationship with Ottawa has always been essential.
Our current MP was previously the mayor of Yellowknife. Now that we have a prime minister from Fort Smith, it creates a regional balance, which many here appreciate. There’s a familiar feeling in Fort Smith that Yellowknife has become something of a black hole, drawing in resources, attention, and authority from the rest of the territory.
One of those developments is the recent push to turn the college into Polytechnic University NWT, centred in Yellowknife. People here are worried it may undermine the Fort Smith campus rather than support it.
We’ve relied on federal support for much of the town’s modern history, so people are quite aware of political dynamics and how they shape life in the North. No one here wants to see the Northwest Territories become like Yukon, where Whitehorse is growing rapidly while other communities shrink. Our region has multiple strong communities spread across a vast area, and we want to maintain that decentralization. Centralizing everything into one central hub would hurt communities like Fort Smith.
So yes, politics are deeply relevant here. But Fort Smith has strengths—a strong Indigenous presence, a well-integrated community, lower cost of living, relatively attractive weather by northern standards, and a legacy of resilience. Our goal is not necessarily growth, but stability. Just maintaining our population and services is a significant challenge, as it is in small communities across Canada. Urbanization has dominated the national story for decades, leaving many rural areas behind.
Jacobsen: Shifting back to the current Prime Minister, Mark Carney, what can be said about his reflections over time on Fort Smith? I’m less interested in the historical controversies or federal policy and more focused on his connection—any public statements he has made about the town, his father’s role as an educator here, or the meaning of Fort Smith in his life. What has he conveyed, either past or present?
Bevington: Almost every time he speaks publicly, he finds a way to mention Fort Smith. During the election debates, he brought it up. Even when he appeared on The Daily Show with Jon Stewart in the U.S., he mentioned it.
He speaks with genuine warmth about Fort Smith. It’s not just a footnote in his biography—it seems part of his identity. He acknowledges it as where he spent his early childhood, and his father worked as an educator. I think that connection has given people here a sense of pride and visibility, and that matters in a small, often-overlooked community like ours.
He mentions Fort Smith often, repeatedly, and it’s clear that he sees it as part of his identity. There’s no question he feels a personal connection. When I was in Ottawa and he was Governor of the Bank of Canada, he knew I was from Fort Smith, which made him more interested in talking to me. It was something we shared, and it mattered to him.
It’s part of Mark Carney’s psychological makeup. He wants to belong to Fort Smith and claim that as part of his identity. He also has ties to Edmonton, where he played hockey in high school. But he does not talk about Edmonton nearly as often. Fort Smith comes up more. Edmonton may be his secondary hometown, but Fort Smith seems primary in how he frames his identity.
Will he act on that? I hope so. I hope he will think about small communities across Canada and how they can thrive. The urban concentration in this country is creating real challenges, especially for young people. Housing is unaffordable. The job market is precarious. Life in cities is becoming more chaotic.
My son lives in Edmonton. He’s an engineer. He has to drive over 30 minutes each way to work, and if he needs to take his kids anywhere, it takes up even more of his time. Transportation and logistics consume his life.
Here in Fort Smith, you never drive more than five minutes. You can walk almost anywhere. Time belongs to you. In cities, time is absorbed by external demands. So I hope Carney keeps that in mind—that small towns are suitable for people in many ways. We should support small-town development, not just fuel urban sprawl.
We’ll see what comes of that. He’s a wise man. I’ve been very impressed by his partner as well. She’s bright, deeply educated, and someone who provides firm support. That matters.
In Parliament, I saw examples of that kind of partnership dynamic. Jack Layton and Olivia Chow come to mind—a strong couple, politically and personally. But it did not matter what the relationship looked like—whether it was man and woman, man and man, or woman and woman. Having someone strong beside you, a touchstone who can help you think through complex issues, is immensely valuable. And I hope it plays out well for him.
I have hope for Mr. Carney, and I was glad he ended up with a minority government. I learned from my time in Parliament that minority governments often produce better leadership.
I watched Stephen Harper in a minority; he had to pay attention to Parliament and engage with what was happening. But once he got a majority, Parliament no longer mattered to him—it became an obstacle. And that, I think, ultimately contributed to his downfall.
Trudeau faced a similar issue when he won a significant majority in 2015. He became too powerful, too fast. In most governments, both Liberals and Conservatives tend to rely heavily on lobbyists—the people behind the scenes pulling strings. However, in a minority government, you must pay attention to Parliament, which protects against some of those private influences.
So, there you go—that’s my little political rant.
Jacobsen: How do lobbyists “pull strings” in a practical sense? What does that look like, realistically?
Bevington: Let’s say the government plans to move in one direction or another. Strong corporate interests will pay close attention to companies with much at stake. Then, you have organized lobby groups representing particular sectors of society, from energy to agriculture to telecom. These groups are well-resourced, connected, and persistent.
Meanwhile, Members of Parliament are elected to represent their constituents. But those constituents do not carry the same weight as Imperial Oil. Constituents cannot have 200 meetings with the prime minister or top ministers in a single parliamentary session, but lobbyists can. That’s the difference.
Over time, the Prime Minister and Cabinet become insulated from the MPS and more influenced by lobbyists. They hear from them more frequently, and lobbyists know how to speak the language of influence. That weakens the democratic process because it shifts power away from the elected members and toward unaccountable private interests.
But when a Prime Minister leads a minority government, that dynamic changes. The Prime Minister becomes the only person who can build consensus and negotiate with other parties to pass legislation. Lobbyists can’t do that. Only they can pull those levers.
So paradoxically, a minority government can make the Prime Minister stronger, not weaker, because it forces them to engage with Parliament, explain themselves, and build alliances. That restores balance to the system.
I’ll admit, my argument needs refining, but my experience in Parliament bears this out. Take Mike Pearson, for example. He led minority governments, and those were very effective governments. He got things done because he had to collaborate, not dictate.
The first Pierre Trudeau came in with a massive majority in 1968. By 1972, he’d become the least-liked man in the country. But when he returned with a minority government, working alongside David Lewis and others in Parliament, he rebounded. That forced collaboration resulted in some truly great policies.
Then, in 1975, Trudeau won a majority again, and things fell apart. The pattern is there. Majority governments often slide into arrogance, while minority governments tend to function better, more democratically and accountable.
Fortunately, Mark Carney begins with a minority government. That means he’ll be the most important person in his party, and Parliament will matter to him. He must justify his decisions, negotiate with others, and earn the support to get things passed.
That gives him power—not in the unchecked, top-down sense—but in the absolute leadership sense. When you have to explain yourself, you grow stronger. When you don’t have to explain yourself to anyone, you grow weaker, even if it feels like power.
That’s precisely what happened with Stephen Harper. When he led a minority, he was focused, sharp, and engaged. When he got a majority, he no longer needed to engage, and it eroded his leadership. That shift ultimately contributed to his defeat.
Jacobsen: So, from that pattern, is there a “healthiest pathway”? Should someone be elected with a minority and then grow into a majority? Or does the majority itself always tend to weaken accountability?
Bevington: If someone becomes aware, really aware, of the structures around them, that’s the first step toward being effective. Awareness is a step toward success. In any walk of life, many people live their daily lives. They go to work, they get things done, but they don’t necessarily have the time or training to analyze why things are the way they are.
Do they have the critical thinking skills to ask the right questions? That’s a deeper issue. When I was at university, I took a minor in philosophy; to this day, it was the most valuable part of my education. It helped me understand motivation, intent, and structures of power. That foundation has served me throughout my life. But I’m digressing a bit here.
Jacobsen: Earlier, you mentioned how many of the brightest Indigenous youth were brought to Fort Smith, sometimes regardless of their wishes. What else stood out about the school environment at that time? For instance, was corporal punishment practiced differently? Were there patterns in how discipline was administered?
Bevington: I was always a bit of a rebel, so yes—I got my share of corporal punishment. Usually, for challenging authority in some way. It might have been something small, like talking in class, but that was enough. I remember one instance in high school: the Australian phys ed teacher made me bend over the desk at the front of the class and hit me with a stick for talking to a girl during a lesson. I sat back down—and kept talking—so I got called up again and walloped a second time.
It was very much part of life back then. I don’t think it was effective—not on me or others. Indigenous kids, in particular, were extremely stoic when it came to punishment. They didn’t show emotion, and they didn’t react. But that’s not to say it was right. It was a destructive practice—one I’m glad is no longer accepted.
Sometimes, people complain today about “discipline in schools” and say, “We should get back to the old ways.” But no—we should not. Corporal punishment doesn’t work. It’s not educational, and it doesn’t foster respect.
Jacobsen: What about slurs or verbal abuse? Were there racial or cultural tensions between students and educators?
Bevington: Yes, that was there. One of the less-talked-about dynamics was the conflict between Métis and First Nations kids. That was the primary source of tension in our community. Both groups were tough, raised in challenging circumstances, and saw each other as competitors—whether for respect, resources, or recognition.
By contrast, the non-Indigenous kids weren’t really in the same competition. Many came from different backgrounds and weren’t seen as direct rivals. So the friction existed within the Indigenous and Métis populations, not so much between them and the white students.
I used to say that Métis kids had the unique ability to be prejudiced toward both groups, meaning they sometimes took a middle-ground identity that gave them license to push against both white and Indigenous peers. It created a complicated social hierarchy, and those dynamics played out in classrooms, on playgrounds, and throughout the community.
That might not be entirely fair to say, but it’s undoubtedly an observation others have made. Growing up, white kids didn’t usually make overtly racist jokes or direct insults—at least not confrontationally. If there was discrimination, it tended to come in more subtle forms, like exclusion.
For example, if one of my sisters had a friendship or even a relationship with an Indigenous kid, my mother might raise an eyebrow. It wasn’t an open scandal or anything, but there was quiet disapproval. Still, because the population balance between white, Métis, and Dene people was relatively even, those biases often stayed beneath the surface.
However, the tension was more visible between the Métis and Dene communities. There were fights, and at times even gang fights in the community, especially among the youth. Those groups were interconnected through family ties, including intermarriage, which meant their conflicts had personal and cultural dimensions.
By contrast, the white kids tended to keep to themselves. The town was somewhat segregated, with different areas clearly occupied by other groups. I was in a unique situation—my family lived on the airport compound, which was much more multi-ethnic. Many Indigenous and Métis people worked for the Department of Transport, so the social model I grew up with resembles more closely what the community looks like today, more integrated.
Jacobsen: Let’s begin to close. Just five more minutes. What is the big lesson from all of this? From the experiences of educators and pupils, from the tensions between Métis and First Nations, white and Métis, white and First Nations, the hierarchies in the community and the laity, and between the Government of Canada and the community. How does all of that evolve into this current moment, where the Prime Minister of Canada often reflects publicly on Fort Smith? How should that be understood?
Bevington: It’s been good for him to have had that early connection to Fort Smith. As I’ve said, our community was one where you couldn’t ignore the realities around you. You had to recognize them, live with them, and learn from them.
His father, Robert Carney, was part of the residential school system, not as an abuser, but as a school principal within that structure. That alone gives Mark Carney a unique opportunity to reflect on the legacy of residential schools and what that has meant for Indigenous people.
It’s a complicated inheritance. His father wasn’t part of Canada’s elite ruling class, but he was part of something we now view with deep regret, even if it was presented as a form of public service at the time.
In contrast to Justin Trudeau, who was raised in upper-middle-class privilege, with a prime minister as a father and connections to the establishment, Mark Carney comes from something different. He straddles the line between insider and outsider, between public service and its historical harms. That makes him more grounded, perhaps.
Now, he has the chance to meaningfully reflect on policy and the social reality of places like Fort Smith, and I hope he does.
Part of Mark Carney’s appeal is his humility. Even though he has had a successful career, he still has a sense of modesty about him, and that’s a good thing. It’s always admirable when someone recognizes that they are not everything to everyone.
We will have to wait and see how he handles power. Up until now, he has been a servant to power. As Governor of the Bank of Canada, and later the Bank of England, as well as in his roles within private industry, he hasn’t owned the institutions—he’s served them. He worked for big companies, not as one of the owners. He didn’t own the Bank of Canada; he worked for it.
So the real question is whether he will continue to see himself as a servant of the country, now that he has actual power. That will be the test of his leadership.
On that note, I’m running out of steam. I tend to go until I suddenly drop, like a cast-off shell at the end of the interview.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] That’s fine. Thank you again, Dennis. I’ll be in touch soon.
Bevington: Take care, Scott.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/13
Dr. Weixelbaum, a historian, writer, filmmaker, and organizer, explains his background and his work on the dramatized film “A Nazi on Wall Street,” which follows a Jewish FBI agent investigating Nazi espionage during World War II. He outlines two academic approaches to antisemitism: one that views it as a persistent, centuries-old prejudice and another as a dynamic, evolving phenomenon shaped by historical and cultural contexts. The conversation examines how conspiracy theories—from The Protocols of the Elders of Zion to modern references involving Henry Ford, George Soros, and Elon Musk—fuel anti-Semitic sentiments. They also explore populist rhetoric’s role in designating “the enemy” and discuss how terms like “self-hating Jew” are used to cancel critical viewpoints. Additionally, the speaker considers generational shifts in Jewish identity, respectability politics, and the importance of solidarity, critical thinking, humour, and hope in countering hate. Both maintain a scholarly tone and stress the need for historical understanding and evidence-based analysis to address and overcome contemporary hate and division. Their conversation comprehensively examines hate, accountability, and the power of informed discourse.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here with Dr. Jason Weixelbaum. He is a writer, producer, musician, and organizer. He grew up in Los Angeles in a family involved in the entertainment industry. After witnessing ethical failures in the mortgage securities sector, he pursued a Ph.D. in history, focusing on American corporate involvement with Nazi Germany. In May 2020, following the passing of his father, he founded Elusive Films to bring critical historical narratives to the screen—most notably developing, as previously discussed, A Nazi on Wall Street.
I’ve encountered—not a wide range, but—a variety of orientations regarding the definition of antisemitism. That is likely a more accurate way to phrase it. Definitions tend to be relatively consistent when experts are asked directly. However, what I have found more distinctive is the framing or philosophical orientation behind these definitions.
One common approach is to treat antisemitism as a persistent phenomenon—something that has manifested over many centuries. Another sees it as dynamic and evolving, suggesting that any fixed or narrowly defined concept of antisemitism is inherently limited due to its historical and cultural fluidity.
So, how do you approach antisemitism in an academic context, and how do you define it—if you believe a precise definition is even appropriate, whether complex or simple?
Dr. Jason Weixelbaum: That’s a great question. And, as with any meaningful inquiry, I stand on the shoulders of giants—many brilliant scholars have written extensively on the subject. As I glance at my working library next to my desk, I see works by Hannah Arendt, Elie Wiesel, Deborah Lipstadt, and many others.
My understanding probably lies somewhere between the two orientations you mentioned. Scholars often refer to antisemitism as the oldest form of hatred or prejudice. It has existed in various forms for over two millennia. And, like all historical phenomena, it evolves. The manifestations of antisemitism during the Holocaust, for instance, are different in character and form from how it appears today.
Contemporary scholars tend to explore what aspects of antisemitism have remained consistent and what has changed over time. Today, of course, we are navigating a very complex and painful moment, particularly with the ongoing Israel–Hamas conflict that has ignited a significant global rise in anti-Semitic rhetoric and violence. At the same time, it is a humanitarian crisis for Palestinians as well. The broader geopolitical situation is tragic and fraught.
For my work, I find it somewhat more straightforward to focus on World War II and the Holocaust, where antisemitism was systemic, codified, and genocidal. It was ideologically explicit and institutionally enforced, which makes it somewhat easier to analyze historically.
It’s also worth noting that, in the United States, during my father’s childhood—which would have been in the 1940s and 1950s—it was still legal for universities and private institutions to practice discriminatory admissions policies against Jews. Quotas limiting Jewish enrollment at prestigious schools like Harvard, Yale, and Princeton, among others, were only formally dismantled in the following decades. That is not ancient history; it was within living memory.
As Faulkner once wrote: “The past is never dead. It’s not even past.”
We could spend much more time discussing antisemitism. Still, I want to underscore one key motivation behind A Nazi on Wall Street. I chose not to make it a documentary but rather a dramatized narrative with a strong human perspective so viewers can engage emotionally and personally.
At the story’s center is a Jewish character—an FBI agent. Historically, there were very few Jewish agents in the FBI during the early 1940s. This character is based on real individuals and is intended to bring visibility to a Jewish protagonist in a position of moral and civic leadership during a time when Jews were often portrayed as victims or outsiders.
He happened to be an authority on organized crime—specifically on prosecuting the mob. So, he had some clout, and he was tasked with tracking down a Nazi spy. That creates a fascinating dynamic.
Amazingly, this is a true story. I constantly have to pinch myself, and I remain surprised that no one else has tried to tell this story yet. So yes, it was important to me.
Although the character at the center of the story may harbour doubts—about his faith, his country, or even about democracy—this is, after all, a film noir true crime story. In such stories, all of those foundational ideals are under threat. Our protagonist—who may or may not be a traditional “hero”—must confront his values to make it to the other side. I try to draw as much from historical material as possible. However, I dramatize and fill in certain blanks regarding that specific character.
But anyway, I digress.
Jacobsen: Regarding the contemporary roots of antisemitism, how would you frame a feasible explanation or description, particularly across the 20th century and into the present, beginning with the early 2000s through 2025? Where do you locate the manifestations we are seeing today?
Weixelbaum: Yes. As I mentioned in our earlier conversation, one of the reasons I am particularly attuned to the dangers of populism is the phenomenon of the politics of outrage. This political framework is constantly constructed as “the people versus a vague elite.” The targets of this outrage shift over time. Still, the underlying mechanism is the same: a group of anxious and fearful individuals looking for enemies—people to blame, dominate, and feel powerful in the face of their insecurities.
The truly frightening aspect of populism is that the identity of the so-called “enemy”—this amorphous, shadowy elite—eventually becomes associated with Jews. This is something you can observe repeatedly throughout history.
Modern antisemitism is deeply rooted in this populist mechanism. Many scholars may disagree with my perspective—and that is fine—but based on my reading of history and my scholarly work, I would argue that this dynamic unfolds as: it is “the people” versus “the rich,” “the people” versus “the bankers,” then “the people” versus “the politicians,” and eventually, “the Jews are behind it all.”
A widely accepted historical narrative is relevant here. There was immense political upheaval in the early 20th century, particularly in Russia during the lead-up to the revolution. The ruling elites in the Russian Empire—using “elite” here in a non-populist, descriptive sense—sought to suppress the Bolsheviks, Communists, and Socialists who were rising against them.
One of the tools they used was weaponized antisemitism. During this period, a document emerged called The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. It is a fabricated text that falsely claims a secret cabal of Jews is conspiring to control the world’s governments, financial systems, and societies for their benefit and amusement. It is, in essence, a conspiracy theory steeped in bigotry and hatred.
The problem arises when this toxic narrative intersects with people of wealth or influence who are uneducated or highly susceptible to conspiracy thinking. One prime historical example is Henry Ford. Ford, a self-made industrialist, was enormously wealthy and powerful. Still, he lacked a formal education and became one of the most prominent purveyors of anti-Semitic conspiracy theories in the United States. He funded the distribution of The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. He published anti-Semitic content in his newspaper, The Dearborn Independent, which had a significant impact on public opinion in the 1920s and beyond.
This pattern—the confluence of fear, populist rhetoric, conspiracy theory, and power—remains a central mechanism for understanding the persistence of antisemitism in the modern era. The people around Henry Ford played a significant role in shaping his worldview. In particular, he had a German secretary in the United States who introduced him to The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. And, of course, populist rhetoric always offers a simple answer to complex global problems—“obviously, it’s the Jews.”
Ford embraced this narrative. And because he possessed immense wealth and influence, he amplified the reach of the Protocols in a way that might never have occurred otherwise.
Some argue with my interpretation, but history unfolded as it did. Unfortunately, this kind of conspiracy can take on a life of its own. Even in the pre-internet era—during the age of newspapers and radio—it spread explosively.
As the old saying goes, “A lie can travel halfway around the world before the truth has a chance to get its pants on.” And here we are. The myth of a secret Jewish cabal remains a potent instrument of antisemitism. It has evolved, but its core remains the same.
Today, instead of invoking the Protocols, many conspiracists use “George Soros” as a shorthand. Simply saying “Soros” is now enough to invoke the entire anti-Semitic trope for some—recasting the old narrative in modern terms.
Jacobsen: My take on cabals is similar to that of Pete Holmes—the comedian. He once made a great point about Conan. He said that whenever someone starts talking about “realms” in fantasy stories, he immediately checks them out.
Similarly, whenever someone starts talking seriously about “cabals,” for me, it’s usually a sign that a conspiracy theory has taken them.
Weixelbaum: This kind of medieval, fantastical language.
Jacobsen: It’s fascinating how language reveals the underlying framework of someone’s worldview. Certain ideas and biases attach themselves to specific vocabulary—often without the speaker realizing it.
I did an interview earlier today with a well-known gospel group. They’ve been performing for decades, and their father was famous before them. One thing that stood out was the concreteness of the Southern language. To a Canadian ear—particularly mine, from a small town in British Columbia—it’s striking. Maybe less so for someone from Alberta. But for me, it’s vivid and tactile: “tin can,” “brick house,” “wood fireplace,” “stove.” The language feels like what it’s describing.
So yes, when people use the word “cabal,” it sounds medieval—just like “realm” does. And I’ve realized that this language can be an early warning sign. It can raise my radar.
Weixelbaum: And for someone like you—with a heightened sensitivity to language and how people express themselves—I’m sure it resonates even more deeply.
Jacobsen: Sure, yes. It’s like the difference between “New Yawk” and “Noo Joisey”—subtle but distinct.
Weixelbaum: In A Nazi on Wall Street, the main character is from New Jersey, but he ends up running the New York office. Is there tension there? Perhaps.
Jacobsen: But please, continue with your thoughts on the concept of a “cabal.”
Weixelbaum: Yes, absolutely—it’s become a buzzword. Any time you can pack a multitude of complex ideas into a single word, it becomes a powerful rhetorical device, and antisemitism is no exception. These narratives travel well.
They spread virally, and they are then amplified by individuals who are eager to do so. Again, Henry Ford comes to mind. So does Father Charles Coughlin, who was essentially the Rush Limbaugh of his era—a populist radio host in the 1930s who reached tens of millions of listeners.
Antisemitism always could spread widely and quickly. The sad part is that today’s social media platforms are even more potent for disseminating these ideas. I am unsure how much we need to review the history again—Gamergate, the rise of Trumpism, 4chan, and the Groypers. All of it has entered the mainstream to the point where someone like Elon Musk feels comfortable amplifying conspiratorial or white nationalist rhetoric and even reportedly appearing in photos making gestures that have been interpreted as Nazi salutes.
So, that is where we are.
It is terrifying to be a Jewish person in this environment. It is deeply unsettling to see anti-Semitic ideas gaining traction both on the populist right and, increasingly, on the populist left. It’s not a great feeling.
As an American Jew, I feel confident saying that the vast majority of us are uncomfortable with the current leadership in Israel and with the war. Many of us are also troubled by how this conflict has created cover for anti-Semitic rhetoric, even within movements that are grounded in legitimate concerns—such as the Free Palestine movement.
The Free Palestine movement certainly raises important, valid arguments. Absolutely. But then we see right-wing figures wearing keffiyehs and joining protests—not out of solidarity with Palestinians but as a means of co-opting the message to promote anti-Jewish sentiment. That is extremely disturbing.
I have seen it online, too: white Christian nationalists—bad actors—aligning themselves with a movement that, on the surface, appears left-wing but which they are instrumentalizing for their hateful agendas. It is not a good time. Not for anyone.
And so, again, I feel morally obligated, as a member of the Jewish community, to tell a positive Jewish story. One is about an American FBI agent trying to stop Nazism—trying to defend democracy. He is not perfect. He is deeply uncertain whether democracy in America can endure, especially given the extent of public support for authoritarianism in the 1930s.
The “America First” movement, which we still hear about today, has its historical roots in that era. And there was a lot of debate and disagreement within the Jewish community at that time. How should we respond to Nazism? Should we fight back? Did we fight back enough?
I think about books like I Cannot Forgive by Rudolf Vrba and Legends of Our Time by Elie Wiesel. These are complex, painful reflections on Jews—then and now.
What we are facing today is overwhelming. It can be isolating.
And, of course, that isolation is precisely what anti-Semites want to see. So, it is essential that even if our voices shake, we speak out. When we talk about solidarity, it is not conditional. We do not get to decide that one group is excluded.
If we are serious about solidarity, we must advocate for Jewish people, Palestinians, and everyone in between.
Jacobsen: Group psychology can offer a helpful framework when analyzing sociopolitical dynamics.
On the far right, we often see overt forms of anti-Semitic language—explicit imagery, dog whistles, innuendo—especially on platforms like 4chan and 8chan. Things like placing names in triple parentheses, referring to “the bankers” or “the elite” as veiled stand-ins for Jews, and so forth.
When called out, these individuals often frame themselves as victims—part of some imagined, persecuted group—within a larger conspiratorial narrative, just as you mentioned earlier.
On the political left, the dynamic is different. It’s less about outright denialism and more about obfuscation or misrepresenting context. I do not know if this comes from the fact that left-leaning discourse often emerges from academic circles, where there’s a higher literacy rate. Thus, the language must be more nuanced or sophisticated to justify certain positions.
That is what I see, or at least what interview experts share with me. How do you see these things being framed today? Do you note any historical parallels in how groups on the right and the left engage with these ideas? Is there anything relevant that contributes to this line of inquiry?
Weixelbaum: Yes, I agree with your observations. On the right is this “wink and nod” approach—the classic schoolyard bully behaviour of “I’m not touching you” while causing harm. It’s a way of bullying while pretending not to, and it is very much intentional.
On the left, the issue is often buried in rhetoric. I have been disappointed by parts of the academic community. It has felt isolating as a scholar to watch post-colonial research and discourse get twisted into an older, more insidious form of discrimination.
You can criticize the Israeli government, of course. But suppose you are making the argument that Israel should not exist. In that case, you are—knowingly or not—making an argument for ethnic cleansing.
No matter how much Frantz Fanon you cite, the core of the argument becomes apparent when you ask a person plainly: “What is your plan for removing all the people who currently live there?” And, “What if they do not want to leave?”
At that point, every single time, the response is obfuscation. As you said—it’s a pivot to rhetoric, a shift to some vague ideological talking point that avoids addressing the practical, moral implications of the argument. If you are advocating for ethnic cleansing, at least own it.
On the right, it is less about obfuscation and more about trolling. Unfortunately, this tactic also has a long history.
Let me give you a historical example. In the late Weimar Republic—after the temporary ban on the Nazi Party was lifted in the late 1920s—the Nazis entered parliament alongside other parties. But when sessions were gaveled into order, the Nazis would often all stand up in unison, smile, and march out of the chamber.
Then, immediately afterward, they would hold a press conference and claim that the government was paralyzed. “See?” they would say. “This is why democracy doesn’t work. This is why we need more power.” They were the ones who deliberately paralyzed the system and then used that dysfunction as propaganda against democracy itself.
Jacobsen: How are global responses failing—from local institutions to international frameworks—in addressing the rise of antisemitism? For instance, there have been dramatic spikes in anti-Semitic incidents in places like New England. It is harder to tell in some regions because the hatred has always been virulent. In others, antisemitism remains low, likely due to a lack of historical traction.
Weixelbaum: It is incredibly disappointing, upsetting, and alienating to watch people conflate eliminationist views toward Israel with broader post-colonial liberation struggles.
This has been especially painful to witness within specific segments of the Black American community. It created real tensions during the 2020 election. Many people wanted to support Kamala Harris—a woman of colour—and Black Americans, who are the base of the Democratic Party.
But a vocal minority also framed the anti-Israel movement as inherently aligned with the Black struggle. Public intellectuals like Ta-Nehisi Coates, for example, have drawn such connections. While those arguments are often made in good faith, the implications can be problematic when they collapse in nuance.
We also see something structurally similar in Ireland: the argument that Ireland’s historical struggle for independence from British rule mirrors the Palestinian cause. And that, somehow, this justifies advocating for the nonexistence of Israel. That kind of framing is alarming.
Unfortunately, antisemitism spreads virally across borders and cultures. What we are seeing now echoes the rhetoric of the 1930s—“The Jewish question.” “What are we going to do about the Jews?” “No one wants them.”
I co-edited among a few others a book with some of my mentors called FDR and the Jews. It recounts an often-overlooked historical episode: the Évian Conference of 1938. President Roosevelt sponsored the conference to persuade other countries to accept Jewish refugees fleeing Nazi Germany.
Delegates from more than 30 nations attended—though I may be off slightly on the exact number; scholars, please do not crucify me for that. But what is essential to remember is this: almost no country agreed to take in Jewish refugees, not even the United States. Congress rejected the premise outright. The only country that volunteered to accept refugees was Cuba. That was it.
It was a heartbreaking spectacle. And the question we must ask ourselves now is: if something similar were to happen today—if Jewish refugees were once again seeking safety—would the international community respond any differently? The answer might be no. And that is a chilling thought.
Jacobsen: Let me pivot to something more reflective: among Gen Z Jewish kids, do they still anchor themselves in Holocaust memorialization the way older generations—say Boomers or even pre-Boomers—might have? Not necessarily in the “remember trauma” sense alone, but in the tradition of familial and communal remembrance—of using memory to contextualize the present and energize resistance to any resurgence of fascism or authoritarianism?
Or are they more like a Norwegian-American kid whose grandparents immigrated to Minnesota in the 1950s or 1990s, and within a generation, they no longer speak Norwegian, no longer know Danish, and identify as thoroughly American—disconnected from their ancestral past?
Weixelbaum: Yes. That’s a sore spot for me. I’m Gen X. And among my younger millennial colleagues and friends—and certainly among Gen Z—I’ve noticed a significant generational shift in how they view Israel and Jewish identity more broadly.
I am not particularly religious myself, but after Trump’s election in 2016—especially after Charlottesville—I felt the need to reconnect more intentionally with the Jewish community. It was the first time I joined a synagogue and started attending services more regularly—not just on the High Holy Days. I come from the Reform tradition—what we jokingly call the “bacon-eating Jews”—not particularly observant, but culturally and communally Jewish.
I still have my grandfather’s tallit, the prayer shawl he passed down to my father, and the prayer shawl my father passed on to me. Unsurprisingly, Jews often return to or become more involved with religious or cultural traditions as they age. That is not unique to Jews—it is a broader human pattern.
However, I have noticed that many younger Jews do not feel the same connection to Israel. Part of that may stem from growing up more secular and less rooted in religious tradition. If you go to a Shabbat service—even one happening right now on a Friday evening, just down the street from where I am—you cannot help but notice how deeply embedded the concept of Israel is in Jewish liturgy, memory, and culture.
Of course, there is a distinction between the modern political state of Israel—founded after World War II—and the idea of Israel in religious and cultural tradition. These are not identical concepts, and they sometimes overlap in contradictory ways.
But I do wonder—when I hear younger, often secular, assimilated American Jews saying things like “I’m an anti-Zionist Jew”—what does that mean in practice? How do you reconcile being observant, even loosely, with rejecting the very concept of Israel? It feels, to me, antithetical to the foundations of Jewish religious tradition.
And how much of this comes down to a lack of knowledge. Some of these individuals are highly assimilated and do not observe much. Then, some observe but seem to twist themselves into rhetorical pretzels to hold their views. The Jewish faith does allow space for questioning, argument, and reinterpretation. That’s one of the things I love most about Judaism—it embraces debate.
That’s what the Talmud is: rabbis writing in the margins, disagreeing with one another, sometimes even saying, “No, that’s wrong—here’s how I see it.” That’s why so many Jews became scholars and lawyers—it’s part of the intellectual tradition. It’s a stereotype, but like many stereotypes, there’s a grain of truth.
Still, I find it alienating and disturbing. I want to share some of them and say: “Hey—come listen. When you’re at a service, actually listen.” There are Jews who violently disagree with me on this, and I understand that. But it does not make it any less painful.
I’m probably ruffling feathers by saying this—but it’s my perspective. When everyone is standing in the synagogue with their hands covering their eyes, reciting the Shema—the literal opening words are “Shema Yisrael” or “Hear, O Israel.” Those are the first three words of one of Jewish tradition’s oldest and holiest prayers.
How can someone reject the idea of Israel entirely on the one hand while fully embracing Jewish faith and ritual on the other? Of course, people do—and that is their right. But I find it very difficult to reconcile. I struggle to understand that position.
Moving from the theological back into the political, what we see today—especially in populist movements—is a departure from rational, fact-based discourse. Populism thrives in an emotional world, not a logical one. Its primary engine is sustained outrage and the relentless manufacture of enemies.
Once the identity of “the enemy” is established, everything else—facts, policy, history—must be shaped to fit that narrative. That narrative must fuel resentment and elevate a hero figure or demagogue.
People may be upset with me for saying this, but what the right wing is doing now mirrors this dynamic exactly. One day, they were championing unregulated capitalism. The next day, they are saying things like: “It’s good that the stock market is down,” “Tariffs are good,” or “Economic collapse is good—we don’t need all these material possessions.” The logic shifts to fit the political moment and supports whomever the hero of the day happens to be.
That is where this all starts to intersect with Judaism again. It is painful. And yes, eventually, these movements tend to move on to some other shiny object to be angry about. They already are. But for now, Trumpism has captured and focused the energy of so many.
It is extraordinarily frustrating to witness this, and it is heartbreaking to grieve the loss of friends along the way—friends I’ve lost because of these deep, polarizing disagreements.
Jacobsen: So—here’s the question: Zionism, in the most generic sense, refers to support for the existence of a Jewish state. But even that broad definition opens up much complexity.
It does not imply a monolithic ethnostate of 100% Jewish heritage, culture, or ethnic background. That would be a naïve assumption, especially considering that last I checked, the third-largest political party in Israel was an Arab Palestinian party.
And then there’s Christian Zionism in the United States—people like Mike Huckabee who actively support the existence of Israel, often for theological reasons tied to end-times prophecy. Some in that camp go further, rejecting the two-state solution altogether and framing Jewish sovereignty in purely religious terms.
Weixelbaum: All right—wow. That’s a big question with three major parts. I’ll start with Christian nationalism because I have some family members on my spouse’s side who believe in it. And to be precise—it does not just frustrate me; it repulses me.
They deserve to know exactly how I feel. Christian Zionism, as promoted by many evangelicals, is directly tied to an apocalyptic fantasy in which Jews burn in hellfire unless and until they abandon their faith. That is the theological underpinning of their support for Israel. It is disgusting.
We should not sugarcoat it with all the flowery rhetoric they use. That’s what it is: a belief that conflict in Israel will trigger the apocalypse, leading to the Second Coming, during which Jews will either convert to Christianity or face eternal damnation. That is the basis of their so-called support for a Jewish state.
And it disturbs me deeply that so many right-wingers and members of the Republican Party back Israel for that reason. It is not welcome support. I reject it. It is grotesque—there is no other word for it.
Essentially, they believe that everything will eventually be OK—for them—if I, as a Jew, am tortured for eternity unless I admit I was “wrong” for being Jewish. No, thank you. They can take that and shove it. You can print that. Anyway, that’s the first part.
Part two—the Zionist extremists who reject a two-state solution—are also deeply problematic. Democracy cannot coexist with an ethno-nationalist project that excludes large swaths of people. Despite some criticisms from the left, inclusion must be fundamental. If you are going to govern democratically, you must include everyone. As you mentioned, one of the largest political parties in Israel is Arab. There are at least two million Arab citizens living in Israel. That fact is routinely ignored by anti-Israel critics.
Now, it is a thorny and complex issue. More must be done to expand democratic inclusion within Israel. It is undeniably challenging to do that when you are surrounded by groups and governments that openly call for your destruction.
Let us also not forget that Jews have been ethnically cleansed from many surrounding countries. Take Yemen, for example. There were once thousands of Jews there. Today, there are virtually none. That’s not just sad—it is alarming.
I believe firmly in a two-state solution, which has long been the internationally recognized path forward. However, I am frustrated by the failures of earlier generations that left this unresolved. I am incredibly frustrated by UNRWA’s role in perpetuating the problem. In many cases, it has helped foster environments in which anti-Israel forces can thrive unchecked.
And let’s be honest—Hamas tunnels were discovered underneath UNRWA facilities. That is not a minor issue. That is a profoundly problematic breach of humanitarian neutrality. Trying to spin that as a non-event is absurd.
The institutions enabling this cycle need to go extinct so we can get back to the hard but necessary work of building two states. That is the only path forward that honours the rights and lives of both Israelis and Palestinians.
And frankly, for the sake of the Jewish people, we must pursue this. Because, as we are seeing yet again, unresolved conflict brings the old spectre of antisemitism right back to life. And on a personal level, I would love to see that spectre buried once and for all. So—those are the first two. What was the third part again? Remind me.
Jacobsen: To recap the three threads, the first involves what a theologian described as “apocalyptic Christian Zionism”—the type Mike Huckabee endorses. It differs from more moderate forms of Christian Zionism in that it is rooted in eschatological fantasy. These believers view the reclamation—not only of the occupied Palestinian territories but of all surrounding lands, including current Israeli territory—as essential to triggering the Second Coming of Christ. In this narrative, the end of days arrives, and the Jewish people must either convert, recant their Judaism (whether Orthodox, Conservative, or otherwise), or suffer eternal damnation. That is their theological framework, and it is deeply troubling.
The second thread is the rejection of the two-state solution by some of these Christian Zionists, often aligned with far-right political actors in the United States. They oppose any diplomatic resolution to the Israeli-Palestinian conflict, favouring instead a maximalist, biblically justified annexationist vision. And yes, we would need several days to explore the complex history of the two-state framework—how it has been supported in theory and subverted in practice by different actors. However, since we focus on antisemitism, I will leave a deeper geopolitical analysis aside.
The third form is perhaps the most socially corrosive: a soft exclusion that emerges in progressive spaces in the West—particularly on college campuses. A clinical social worker and two clinical psychologists, all of Jewish heritage, recently raised this in a published group dialogue. They shared an example from Columbia University: a Jewish student, who may or may not have a strong stance on Israel, is asked to renounce support for Israel to join a gardening club. This is not a political debate but a condition for participation in basic student life.
It is that kind of gatekeeping—of requiring ideological alignment as a prerequisite for inclusion—that places young Jews, especially those just entering adulthood and university, in an impossible position. These students may not have sophisticated political views yet; they may be ethnically or culturally Jewish, but that alone becomes grounds for exclusion. That’s a deeply troubling trend. Of course, there are many other Zionisms—labour, political, cultural, revisionist, and post-Zionist—but the three we discuss here are the most socially visible and practically consequential today.
Weixelbaum: Yes—exactly. Why do they not just say, “No Jews allowed”? That is the subtext of so much of this. Come on. That’s what is so frustrating.
And, yes, say what you will about the tenets of national socialism—but at least it was overt about its ethos. (That’s a Big Lebowski quote, by the way, but also relevant.) What we see now, especially from the far left, is obfuscation. There’s this constant effort to bury the message under euphemisms. “We’re not anti-Jewish—we’re just anti-Israel.” But then I want to stop them and ask, “Wait—are you saying I cannot join your club or be part of your space simply because I believe the State of Israel, born in the aftermath of the Holocaust and surrounded by hostile neighbours who have repeatedly sought its destruction, has a right to exist?”
That is the prerequisite for my exclusion?
I want to quiz them. I want to ask, “What do you know about Judaism? Can you recite the Shema prayer’s first three words—one of our tradition’s most sacred prayers?” What are those first three words?
Shema Yisrael—“Hear, O Israel.”
Jacobsen: Also, gold star for the most Jewish word I’ve heard this year: Shema.
Weixelbaum: The Shema—that’s right. And for me, the level of obfuscation I hear from some people when discussing Israel and Judaism tells me they fundamentally do not understand Judaism at all. Judaism and the concept of Israel are deeply interconnected—religiously, historically, and culturally.
Some of the rhetoric today veers into outright historical revisionism. You hear people claim, absurdly, that Jews are not native to the land of Israel. But we know that’s false. The oldest Jewish cemetery in Jerusalem, on the Mount of Olives, contains graves that are thousands of years old. You can visit them. It is not theoretical—it’s a literal place. This is not a people who “sprang into existence in 1949.” Jewish presence in the region spans millennia.
If you applied that same revisionist logic to any other group—say, Indigenous nations in North America—and told them, “Sorry, your connection to this land is invalid,” or “Your nation should not exist,” it would be rightly recognized as ridiculous, even comically racist. But somehow, when it comes to Jews, there’s an asterisk. There’s always an exception. And that isn’t comforting.
When the solidarity movement on the left starts drawing ideological lines where Jews are excluded or uniquely scrutinized, then we are no longer talking about leftism. We are talking about populism. And that’s the problem.
For the cheap seats, let me say it clearly: populism is very good at co-opting social justice rhetoric. But its core mechanism is always the same—identifying and destroying enemies. Once Jews are designated as that enemy, populist movements will twist, adapt, and steal whatever rhetoric suits the moment. The outcome is always the same: destruction.
If I may digress for a moment—because this is personal and painful—let me tell you what leftism means.
Leftism means public health. It means people who do not spend their time posting memes on social media but are instead in hospitals, schools, and nonprofits trying to find real solutions to improve people’s lives. I work with those people every day.
Many of them have lost their jobs for the so-called “crime” of trying to protect others—people doing their best to keep communities safe and healthy. That is solidarity, and I respect that kind of moral seriousness.
It is not about saying, “This group gets extra privilege” or “That group should be excluded.” It is not about playing oppression Olympics or creating racial hierarchies. It is about making sure we do our best for everyone. We try, we fail, and we try again.
We must think carefully about the terms we use, the ideas we promote, and how they affect real people. That is what solidarity looks like: not spending all your time online finding enemies to destroy or dunking on people for clout.
That is not leftism, as far as I’m concerned.
Jacobsen: How do you build this into your writing?
Weixelbaum: Ah, great question. As a science writer, especially before the previous administration, I found it relatively easy to advocate for public health. It was meaningful work—you could go to sleep at night knowing you were helping highlight the critical efforts of hardworking scientists, often those behind the scenes, doing the essential work that now—only now, in their absence—people finally seem to recognize and care about.
My experience in public health informs a great deal of my political writing. I have written for Democratic campaigns and nonprofit initiatives, and I’ve always believed in advocating for the public good. That is an area where you can generate real buy-in. If we drill down into ideology, yes—it is often a left-wing concept, the idea of “the commons”—that solidarity has no boundaries and everyone deserves access to shared public goods.
And you know what? Even conservatives—especially in regions like rural Pennsylvania—often care about public parks, clean air, open space, and wildlife preservation. Those are shared values. I worked on a voter guide during the 2020 election. I was told that it reached over 300,000 unique voters in Pennsylvania alone. I used that kind of framing to create common ground.
That matters. That is how we can move people. We need more of that. We need to de-radicalize this culture and walk people back from the ledge. It cannot always be about what we are against—about what we hate. I know it is frustrating, and I am ranting now.
Jacobsen: We also saw similar political undercurrents and troubling spikes in Europe. Take Germany, for example—the rise of the AfD (Alternative für Deutschland) marks a sharp uptick in populist rhetoric and far-right sentiment within a previously more reasoned political environment. In the United States, antisemitism has manifested across nearly every sector of society. Every demographic and every political bloc has seen some level of it—there is no clear partisan divide.
Here in Canada, looking at the most recent census data and hate crime statistics, the majority of reported hate crimes are anti-Semitic. That is followed at some distance by Islamophobic or anti-Muslim crimes, and then anti-Catholic ones—which surprises some people but makes demographic sense given that roughly 40% of Canada identifies as Catholic.
What I have not seen as much attention paid to, however, is the experience of atheists, agnostics, and humanists. In Canada and the U.S., I do not believe the state data fully reflects the animus many from those communities report. However, early-stage studies suggest that non-religious individuals face widespread hostility. In the U.S., the hatred directed at secular people appears to be tri-partisan—coming from Republicans, Democrats, and Independents alike. I am unsure how the Green or Libertarian parties factor into that, but the trend is worrying.
That’s more of a side comment. But to bring us back on track: in Europe today, what are you observing regarding the current manifestations of antisemitism? How would you compare that to what we see in the United States? After that, maybe we can touch on other regions as well.
Weixelbaum: Germany is understandably the most frightening case because of its historical legacy. I was relieved to see recent electoral results in which the AfD (Alternative für Deutschland) lost ground, and cooler heads prevailed. But still, the echoes of the 1930s and the viral spread of far-right populist movements globally are alarming.
And not to sound like a broken record, these movements often emerge from a profound anxiety—a deep sense of unease about one’s place in the world. This is something that has been studied extensively. Everyone always wants to know: how did the Nazis come to power? What led an advanced society, filled with culture and learning, into such darkness?
When I taught courses on the Holocaust and Nazi Germany—both to undergraduates and graduate students—the book I consistently used was The Nazi Seizure of Power by William Sheridan Allen. Despite the generic-sounding title, it is an incredibly insightful text. It focuses on a medium-sized town—not a major city, but a large town—in Germany between the late 1920s and a year or two after the Nazis took power.
The value of the book is that it dives into the local dynamics. Who became a Nazi? Who resisted? What patterns emerged? And some of the answers are surprising. While many supporters did come from the working class and those devastated by the Great Depression, some of the most ardent Nazi loyalists were middle-class citizens—people who still had something to lose. It was precisely their sense of vulnerability, their fear of downward mobility that made them susceptible.
They had a measure of comfort and stability but were plagued by fears of losing it—about their status, identity, and place in a rapidly changing world. Those are the same underlying dynamics fueling far-right movements today. It is not always the most downtrodden who turn to extremism. Often, it is the anxious middle class.
We live through intense and accelerating change—culturally, politically, economically, and scientifically. With the advent of instant communication and real-time information, the velocity of change feels overwhelming. The only constant in history is change, which now feels turbocharged.
So it’s not surprising that amid this paradigm shift—this moment when new world order is forming—right-wing populist movements are surging. And to be fair, populism is not exclusive to the right. Left-wing populism can also emerge from the same base of anxiety. The language may differ. The targets may vary. But the emotional mechanism is strikingly similar.
What is perhaps most unsettling—and this goes back to Allen’s book—is the role of the so-called “respectable people.” These were well-educated individuals, people from liberal or centrist traditions, who you would expect to resist extremism. But they became true believers. That’s always the danger.
It reminds me of the darkly humorous line: “I voted for the leopard-eating-face party, but I didn’t think they’d eat my face.” And now, in America, we’re watching people panic as their stock portfolios suffer under the chaos they helped usher in.
At the core of all this is status fear. It is not about poverty—it is about fear of falling. That is what fuels so much of today’s radicalism.
Jacobsen: How do you see Reform Jewish communities responding to this rise in antisemitism? We can also talk about Conservative and Orthodox communities. Still, I understand your personal experience and commitments might be more grounded in the Reform tradition.
Weixelbaum: That’s a thorny one. The Anti-Defamation League (ADL) is one of the oldest and most visible Jewish organizations in the United States. They’ve been around for a long time and are often seen speaking for the broader Jewish community. But I want to be precise—I can not speak for the Reform Jewish community. As the saying goes, “Two Jews, three opinions,” right?
That said, there is a bifurcation happening. The ADL appears to be increasingly aligned with the political right in the United States, at least in terms of what they excuse or remain silent about. For example, I believe they downplayed Elon Musk’s very public gesture, which many interpreted as a Nazi salute. Unless I hallucinated that, they publicly suggested it was not a Nazi salute. Did that happen? Because if so, that’s extraordinarily disturbing.
Who exactly are they protecting in that scenario? It certainly is not the majority of American Jews—most of whom are deeply unsettled by the sharp rise in anti-Semitic rhetoric, attacks, and threats.
As a Holocaust scholar, I find all of this more than worrisome. I see patterns repeating. And it is paralyzing. Many of us are shocked, frozen, watching this unfold. I cannot help but think of relatives a couple of generations back—Jews living in Germany in the early 1930s, after the Nazis rose to power. What were their conversations like around the dinner table?
“What do we do?” “Do we stay? We have jobs. We have family here.” “But if we leave, where do we go?” “Is anywhere else safer?” Those same conversations—impossible calculations—are happening again around modern dinner tables. That I can tell you with confidence. And the terrifying part is that no one knows where it leads. All we know is that we are in a worsening crisis that feels familiar and unprecedented.
So yes, the Reform community has a wide range of reactions and disturbances. When I attend synagogue, almost every sermon includes some reflection on the rise of antisemitism, the sense of isolation, and the complexity of the moment—especially in light of the Israel-Gaza conflict. Many are leaning deeper into their Jewish communities for support. But even those spaces can feel isolating, particularly when everything gets tangled up in the geopolitics of the Middle East.
As for consensus? I do not think there is one yet. What we can say—based on voting patterns—is that the vast majority of American Jews supported the Democratic candidate in the last election, mainly because they hoped it would reduce the threat of antisemitism and far-right extremism. But then we hear rhetoric from Trump claiming that Jews who support Democrats “aren’t real Jews.” That isn’t comforting.
As one of my mentors joked—thank you, Dr. Lichtman—“Ah yes, noted rabbinical scholar Donald Trump is now deciding who counts as Jewish.” I’ll cite my source there. He was on my dissertation committee, and, funny enough, he still is. I don’t know what the next move is for my community. I know this: I do not feel safe right now.
Jacobsen: There was a roast once of Joan Rivers by Gilbert Gottfried. And… the guy who always talked like this and used to squint all the time. He had this entire bit, one of the funniest comedic monologues I’ve ever heard. It was at a roast of Joan Rivers, and the whole thing was wrapped around this outrageous story of them supposedly making love.
He begins with: “There’s been much talk about the much-maligned Joan Rivers’ vagina.” Then he dives in: “How old is it? How dry is it? How many men died during its construction?” And from there, it just keeps escalating.
I have always thought that kind of ribbed, ruthless humour would make brilliant advisory commentary—biting, observational, but disarming. It would also make a good framework for writing something timely.
Weixelbaum: You are touching on something vital there. Humour matters—deeply. And it is something I have been thinking about since our last conversation.
People often ask me, as someone who studies fascism and authoritarianism, “What’s going on?” “Help me understand.” So, I explain the dynamics. And then they say, “Now I’m depressed. What can I do?”
For a while, I struggled with how to respond. But I do have an answer now: humour. Humour is one of the most potent tools we have against populism, right-wing extremism, and fascism—ideologies that thrive on fear, anger, and isolation.
Populist and fascist movements feed on rage. Their ecosystem depends on sustaining grievance, amplifying resentment, and keeping people in constant outrage. But humour—especially the kind deeply rooted in Jewish culture—can deflate that. Humour says, “Why are you so angry? It could always be worse.”
That kind of wry, self-aware humour takes power out of authoritarianism. It exposes how brittle and ridiculous it is. Humour interrupts fear, and fear is what fascism feeds on.
Right now, I am looking across the room at my copy of Hannah Arendt’s The Origins of Totalitarianism. So much of that book is about the psychological dimension of authoritarianism. How it isolates people from each other, creates internal fragmentation, and dissolves the social glue. I have felt that. I am living it. These past few months have been tough. I’ve struggled.
But I remind myself—and others—that maintaining a sense of humour is not frivolous. It is essential. Humour disarms the very forces trying to isolate us. And Jewish humour, in particular, has always had that capacity. It is both cathartic and piercing. Think about Springtime for Hitler—one of the greats. That’s Mel Brooks turning fascism into farce and, in doing so, stripping it of its menace.
Jacobsen: I was a drama student in high school. I wrote two plays and acted in a few others. I remember the feeling of trying to put complex things into words—translating emotion into performance. Humour lets you turn the angle, even just 15 degrees, maybe 40. As George Carlin once said, something has to be out of proportion for something to be funny. There must be a distortion, which creates the comedic break. He was probably right.
Now, we’ve talked about Europe. We’ve talked about America. What about the Middle East? What do you see there—in terms of literature, plays, or cultural and artistic output—that could be considered universal, cosmopolitan, or inclusive? And how does that compare to material that is explicitly or implicitly antisemitic? What’s the cultural landscape like there?
Weixelbaum: What’s coming out of the region, culturally? I wish I could point to specific examples right now. I do. But I would be dishonest if I tried to speak with authority on the current Israeli or Palestinian cultural scenes. I’ve just been too distracted lately—consumed by the immediate, by what is unfolding right in front of me.
That said, this conversation is a prompt—a reminder to pay more attention to what is happening beyond the headlines and my professional tunnel vision. What I would like to see, what I hope is happening, is that somewhere—amid all of this darkness—there are Jews, Arabs, and Palestinians using humour, art, and culture to build bridges. That is where hope lives.
As Mister Rogers used to say, “Look for the helpers.” The artists—the people who build connections through creativity—are helpers, too. That matters to me on a deep level. Even though I went into a technical, scholarly, scientific career, art is where my soul resides. It is where healing begins, where we can address even the most entrenched, painful problems.
I will not pretend to be familiar with specific plays, films, or cross-cultural artistic collaborations right now. I do not know. But I am sure they exist. And I urge anyone who sees, hears, or experiences them to amplify them. We need so much more of that. We need more beauty, courage, and humanity in this space. That is how we start to reverse this damage.
Everything that is made can be unmade—including violence, division, and hate. And it must be unmade. One of the tragic yet redemptive features of the human condition is that we do not live very long. That means that every new generation brings an opportunity for change. Every student, every curious young person, has a chance to do things differently—to break cycles of inherited trauma and violence.
We need to nurture that. We need to commit to that. And I say this while fully acknowledging that I have been caught up in the acrimony. These past months have been deeply upsetting. I’ve felt defensive and anxious—like I am under attack all the time simply for being Jewish.
That’s not a sustainable emotional state for anyone. And yet, it is the reality for many of us. That is why we need to stand together, yes, and also work together. I know it sounds trite—but it is essential.
Jacobsen: Who do you see as having the most significant influence in these cycles? Not in the conspiratorial sense—because, of course, both the far right and far left love to cast blame in ways that feed their narratives. On the far right, the MAGA crowd is obsessed with George Soros. On the far left, it is often white nationalists or Christian nationalists who are scapegoated.
But not through that lens—through a sober lens. Who do you think is most emotionally invested in perpetuating anti-Semitic tropes? Who are the real influencers of this?
Weixelbaum: Unfortunately, it is becoming an increasingly familiar roster. Elon Musk is now at the top of that list. I wish more of my friends had been skeptical ten years ago when so many had stars in their eyes about Mars missions and underground tunnels and electric cars. I remember telling people, “I saw him make a crude ejaculation joke at a sitting senator on social media—are we sure this is the visionary you think he is?”
That was a decade ago. And now we’re seeing the consequences. It does not surprise me. Musk has become a central figure in this disconcerting space—one that combines right-wing bullying, antisemitism, racism, and the broader aesthetic of fascism. It is not just rhetoric anymore—power, influence, and cultural permission to hate.
And then, of course, there’s Steve Bannon. He is deliberately trying to build an international network of far-right—and frequently antisemitic—organizations and parties. He is not subtle about it. He’s a strategist for global extremism.
Of course, there is the elephant in the room: Donald Trump. Ever since he said, “wonderful people on both sides” after Charlottesville, he has empowered and emboldened a movement that had long been lurking in the shadows. He mainstreamed it. He gave permission.
And the result has been a disturbing rise of far-right, fascist-adjacent sentiment—not just in America but globally.
And in practice, of course, the consequences are devastating. Look at what happened in Oklahoma City—evacuating buildings rebuilt after earlier bombings by far-right racists. It is hard not to see the throughline—the ideological connections—between the present and the violent past. And we cannot ignore the other elephant in the room that we should have talked about much earlier: Vladimir Putin.
Putin has been deliberately amplifying antisemitic groups and narratives, stoking division in Western societies for years—mainly through disinformation and social media manipulation. This is not speculation; this is well documented. Peer-reviewed research papers, intelligence briefings, and journalistic investigations all point to the same conclusion.
Jacobsen: Regarding President Vladimir Putin and the leadership around him in the Kremlin—this is not theoretical to me. I’ve been to the region twice. The first time, I stayed for two or so weeks; the second time, it was just shy of a month. I was initially doing war journalism alongside a Romanian journalist and then with two journalists the second time. I returned in mid-September last year.
The second book of those conversations will be out either this weekend or next week. I have all the materials ready now.
One Ukrainian Jewish researcher I spoke to—someone I trust—explained that there’s significant antisemitism being spread online within Ukraine. But—and this is key—it is not organically Ukrainian. It is generated by bots or external forms of influence operating within Ukrainian digital spaces.
So, what we are looking at is not simply internal cultural bigotry but an externally imposed disinformation campaign. It is a very different kind of front—psychological and cultural.
A lot of this weaponized antisemitism ties back to disinformation campaigns that distort historical memory, particularly around sensitive topics like the Maidan protests and Independence Square commemorations—for example, debates about which symbols should be allowed during national remembrance ceremonies. Christian crosses were broadly accepted—seen as representing “real” Ukrainian history—while Jewish symbols like the menorah were rejected, with the implicit message that Jewish history is somehow foreign or lesser.
This kind of symbolic exclusion is powerful. It says: your history doesn’t count here.
And that is just one layer. There are more profound, more academic forms of distortion—historical revisionism, outright denialism, and tropes echoing longstanding antisemitic slurs. Some of the antisemitic language in Ukrainian is either metaphorical or explicitly refers to antisemitic archetypes.
So yes, this is an ongoing and growing phenomenon. The real questions become: How widespread is it? Who are the sources? What networks are responsible—bots, trolls, foreign agents, or localized enablers? And most importantly, how do you deal with it? How do you respond meaningfully?
There’s also the matter of broader propaganda systems operating in the region, which we can reevaluate momentarily. I’ll let you respond first—and if I remember the other thread I was thinking of, I’ll gently nudge us back to it.
Weixelbaum: Yes. There is an undeniable irony here—because Ukraine has a profound Jewish history. The city of Odessa, for example, had one of the most vibrant and vital Jewish communities in Eastern Europe. Then came the devastation of the Holocaust during World War II. And after that, the repression under Stalin. These communities were deeply wounded—historically, demographically, and spiritually.
And yet, Ukraine now has a Jewish president. That is extraordinary. It complicates every lazy narrative about antisemitism being innate or immutable in Eastern Europe.
Still, I had some difficult conversations with friends at the beginning of this horrific war Putin has launched against Ukraine. Many of the online attacks that emerged in those early months were not even focused on Ukrainians themselves—but were broader attempts to muddy the waters, sow confusion, fracture alliances, and revive ancient hatreds under the guise of nationalism.
Putin has used antisemitism not just as a domestic tool—but as a geopolitical weapon. These disinformation campaigns—especially antisemitic ones—have not remained confined to Eastern Europe. They are percolating into the West. And it isn’t comforting. I have friends—ostensibly left-wing, progressive friends—who are now parroting Kremlin propaganda, insisting that “Ukraine is full of Nazis.”
One of the tactics antisemitic trolls love to use is calling Jews “Nazis.” They know exactly how hurtful that is: Holocaust inversion, which is an academic subfield specifically devoted to studying this They do it precisely because it is emotionally brutal for us. And now we are seeing the left-wing version of it as well—people saying that “Jews are committing a Holocaust in Gaza” or that “Israel is a Nazi state.”
I have had to bite my tongue at family gatherings—hearing distant relatives or friends say this to my face. I have had to sit there and… breathe because it is not just an intellectual insult but a deep personal wound.
Anyway, circling back to Russia and Ukraine—there is a longstanding connection between trolling and fascism. They go hand in hand. Nazi rhetoric always had that element of winking, nodding plausible deniability. “What? I’m not bullying you—I’m just asking questions.” It is trolling in its most dangerous form. And online, that style of communication has been supercharged.
Putin and his massive troll infrastructure have taken this model and run with it. Over the past decade, they have waged not only a physical war in Ukraine but a sustained psychological war across Western societies—using antisemitism as one of their most effective wedge tools.
As we noted earlier, some call antisemitism the oldest form of racism. And in terms of weaponization, it is undoubtedly one of the most enduring and effective ways to fracture liberal coalitions. So, no—it does not surprise me that this is happening in Ukraine. I only hope that my Ukrainian brethren—especially those resisting both invasion and ideological pollution—stay strong.
I say this personally. I am half Ukrainian—on my maternal side, ironically, the non-Jewish side of my family. And with both the war in Ukraine and the escalating crisis in Israel and Gaza, this past year has been incredibly difficult for me. I care deeply about both conflicts. I follow developments on both fronts daily.
To answer your question—what can we do to combat this?—we need to use every tool available to fight trolls and disinformation. That means humour, blocking, and zero-tolerance policies. It means well-designed moderation tools in digital spaces. These are not optional anymore. They are necessities.
Above all, teaching critical thinking. My spouse is a university librarian, and this is what they do—teach media literacy, especially to young people immersed in online spaces. It is one of the reasons I married them. The front line in this battle is teaching people to analyze, evaluate, and contextualize.
Interestingly, New Jersey—the same state we joked about earlier—is the first state in the U.S. to mandate media literacy instruction in high schools. That is huge and incredibly important. So yes, these are our tools: humour, education, moderation, and community standards. And we have to use them. because what we are up against is not just offensive—it is corrosive.
And I remembered the other point I wanted to raise: the irony that the culture which sacrificed the most soldiers and civilians in the fight against Nazism—namely the Soviet Union, and in particular, Russians—is now one of the largest global exporters of neo-Nazi rhetoric and antisemitic propaganda.
It is stunning. And it has brought me to a rather bleak thought. You know how the old saying goes: “The arc of the moral universe is long, but it bends toward justice”? Lately, I have started to feel like… maybe it bends toward irony.
Jacobsen: The arc of the moral universe may lead toward irony. Maybe not toward justice but toward irony. Not necessarily in the cosmic sense but in the rhetorical and moral one. That feels about right. Perhaps the larger arc is justice, but the subtext—its lived texture—is irony. There’s a kind of tragic subset of moral physics where irony is inescapable.
And it reminds me—there was a famous director, brilliant in his craft but less so in his personal life. He did some awful things involving his stepdaughter—Woody Allen. I remember an interview he gave maybe five or ten years ago. He said, “The longer you live, you stick around, and you start to see that about every hundred years, everything gets flushed again.” There’s this sense that no matter how much progress we think we’ve made, it cycles back.
That’s why irony feels so present. We can have these elevated conversations about moral arcs and cycles, but the reality—the texture of it—feels more ironic than linear. Even though lifespans have doubled, and we have access to medicine, infrastructure, and relative safety, we still carry the existential dread our ancestors had.
Shakespeare wrote about the brevity of life when people were dying at 30 from cholera or dysentery. Today, we say the same things in a world where we can live into our eighties, albeit often at the cost of financial ruin due to medical debt. So yes, there’s an irony in that, too: I have so much and still feel like it’s never enough.
All of this folds back into a broader loss—not just of ethics but of what I’d call the aesthetic of ethics—the performative veneer of moral seriousness without its substance.
Weixelbaum: You asked earlier what informs my writing and communication. The more I reflect on it, the more I realize that when I advocate for hope, resilience, and humour in the face of terrible things, I’m not just writing for others.
I’m writing to myself. I’m saying: Jay, don’t lose hope. Don’t become hardened. Don’t become cynical. Stay human. If I can convince myself, I can convince one other person, too.
I once wrote a piece called Observation on Hope about my Holocaust research. I don’t know if you’ve seen it, but it explores how people found hope even in the absolute darkest circumstances. That’s important right now because, without hope, there is no resilience. Without resilience, there is no humour. And humour, as we’ve discussed, is a powerful antidote to despair.
And hope—real hope—is not dependent on facts. It is not about optimism. It’s about maintaining agency over our attitudes when the external world is spinning out of control. And I’ll admit: I need to work on that myself.
Jacobsen: Which playwrights or authors do you think are most insightful—most nuanced—about antisemitism? Who manages to poke at it pointedly and profoundly?
Weixelbaum: Oh man, that’s a tough one. There are so many, and I should have done some homework before this conversation. I can point to plenty of scholars who’ve shaped me. We already mentioned Hannah Arendt, of course.
But I will have what the French call l’esprit de l’escalier—staircase wit. I’ll think of the best answer after we finish talking.
The name that comes to mind right now is Rudolf Vrba and the book I Escaped from Auschwitz. It’s not a work of fiction or a play, but it reads with literature’s intensity and moral clarity. It’s a true story.
Vrba was a young man when the Nazis captured him and sent him to Auschwitz. The way the camp was structured, the Nazis needed inmates to serve as a skeleton crew to help run operations—while the rest of the Jews were murdered wholesale. Vrba arrived with a small group of other young men. Slowly, one by one, he watched each of them lose hope.
And the conditions were beyond inhumane. The electric fences were nearly complete. The Nazi army was winning battles in the East. Death was constant—gas chambers operating continuously, corpses piling up, no apparent escape.
There was absolutely no rational reason for hope.
And yet, Rudy held onto something—a spark, a conviction that if he could escape and tell the world, it might change something. It might matter.
That’s why the story stayed with me. It’s not just a tale of survival—it’s a story of moral defiance. A refusal to surrender to nihilism, even in a world designed to erase you.
And so, Rudolf Vrba’s companions lost hope individually. Auschwitz was not only emotionally and spiritually devastating—it was physically excruciating. People died constantly. It was easy to catch cholera. As you said earlier, death by diarrhea was very real. If you were assigned to corpse duty—handling the dead—you were essentially given a death sentence. The bodies were diseased, the work was degrading, and the conditions were impossible.
Sometimes, a guard might simply decide to shoot you. There was no logic. No justice. It was terror by design.
Vrba, against all odds, ended up being one of the last surviving members of his cohort. But as he watched his companions fade—one by one—he made a decision. He would not lose hope. And what’s remarkable is that his hope wasn’t rooted in optimism or evidence. It was, in my reading, an act of defiance—a conscious refusal to let the Nazis strip him of his humanity.
He chose to keep hope out of spite for the horror surrounding him.
Once he took that stance—once he reclaimed his attitude—it unlocked a kind of clarity. He began to observe his surroundings with fresh purpose. He started asking: What can I learn here? What information can I gather? How can I escape? How can I warn the world about what’s happening?
Eventually, he secured a job near an office—close enough to overhear guards and staff talking. He began collecting fragments of information. In Auschwitz, information was more valuable than food. And over time, through small acts of connection and trust, he formed a plan. He learned that a portion of the electric fence was not yet complete. He pieced together a disguise—a costume he could use in the countryside—and managed to obtain forged papers, money, and supplies.
His escape plan was to hide in a trash pile near the unfinished section of the fence, wait until the timing was right, and then slip out undetected.
And he did it.
He hid while the Nazis searched for days—with dogs, with patrols. But they never found him. Vrba became one of the few people ever to escape from Auschwitz and live to tell the world what was happening inside.
The lesson I take from that is simple but profound: Hope is not based on data. It’s not “I have hope because X, Y, and Z factors line up.” Hope, in its most accurate form, is an act of will. It’s a decision—an act of resistance in despair.
And if you can hold on to hope under those conditions—when the world is on fire around you—it is one of the most powerful things you can do.
Because here’s the other insight: Attitudes are viral.
We have spent so much time in this conversation talking about the virality of grievance—how anger spreads online, how trolling works, how authoritarianism capitalizes on emotional contagion.
However, negative emotions are not the only thing that spreads.
Hope is also viral.
When one person holds onto hope and refuses to break, that resilience inspires others, building courage, community, and friendship.
Yes, the online world is designed for rage clicks and hostile engagement. But we can counteract that, saying, “No, I will not give into despair. I am going to stand for connection, for decency, for hope.”
That’s what I take from Vrba’s story.
There are many other examples—many other brilliant Jewish figures, especially comedians, who have used humour to fight antisemitism. But this is the story I wanted to share today because it reminds us that even in the most horrifying circumstances imaginable, a spark of human dignity can survive. And sometimes, that spark is enough to change everything.
You mentioned Elon Musk earlier in connection with all of this.
Jacobsen: I recently heard a joke that made me laugh, albeit darkly: Elon Musk is the first person in history to be radicalized by his algorithm. It’s funny—and also devastatingly accurate.
Weixelbaum: This is no longer the premise of a speculative film—it is not probable, perhaps, but entirely plausible. It is no longer science fiction. What we are seeing now is a highly targeted reality, facilitated by rapid technological advancement and openly encouraged by political operators who have a well-documented history of stoking disinformation campaigns—especially those built on antisemitic conspiracy theories. One of the most prominent figures in this regard is Steve Bannon. His sociopolitical and cultural influence, though perhaps more subdued in recent months, remains ever-present, particularly in the advancement of antisemitic and white nationalist rhetoric masked beneath the thin veil of right-wing populism.
Bannon is the perfect case study for my argument throughout this conversation about populism. Ironically, he began his political journey aligned with left-wing populist movements. And if you trace his ideological trajectory, it is no surprise that he ended up on the other side of what some call the “horseshoe”—where the extreme ends of the political spectrum begin to resemble one another. What’s deeply troubling is that Bannon sees the potential of transnational right-wing alliances and actively works to cultivate them. His alignment with Viktor Orbán in Hungary, his sympathies toward Putin’s regime, and his likely connections to similar elements in Germany and elsewhere illustrate a more significant, chilling truth: this is an international movement. This is not an American problem—it is a global one.
And that fact has clear historical parallels. One of the core themes of the Nazi on Wall Street project I’ve been developing is the international nature of Nazism itself—how it crossed borders, how financial and ideological alliances supported its rise. The protagonist in that story—though maybe not a hero—is tasked with confronting this exact ideological export. Bannon, in many ways, is today’s equivalent. He understands and exploits the mechanisms that make populist movements dangerous: rhetorical subversion, half-truths, conspiracies mutating into antisemitic beliefs, and, critically, the addictive emotional thrill of trolling and dominance. He leverages all of these to expand his reach and strengthen his networks.
What makes Bannon especially dangerous is his precision. He knows exactly how these movements feed on emotional energy. He’s aware that populism thrives not on policy but on grievance. He exploits the mechanisms of conspiracy, engages in the “wink-and-nod” language of plausible deniability, and rewards people for their cruelty. This little endorphin rush comes from trolling others online. It is dominated by design, and Bannon is its engineer.
The most disturbing aspect, perhaps, is how the legal system—despite occasional action—has failed to stop him. Individuals like Bannon are often rebuked or penalized but rarely neutralized. They’re usually empowered once they’ve gone through the system and come out the other side. They have a martyr complex and a renewed sense of purpose. They double down. They go harder. And that terrifies me.
Many felt relieved when they heard rumours that Bannon and Elon Musk were at odds. But even that is not necessarily reassuring. What we are witnessing might be what I call “competing authoritarianism”—where influential individuals vie to out-fascist one another, not because of ideological differences but because of egotism and rivalry. And that, too, is rooted in history.
This dynamic reminds me of the Führerprinzip—the “leader principle” from Nazi Germany. The concept holds that there can be only one ultimate authority. These kinds of leaders do not believe in succession planning. They believe in dominance, not continuity. They see themselves as indispensable. And once the “load-bearing villain,” as I sometimes call them, begins to falter—physically, politically, or otherwise—everything beneath them starts to collapse.
Trump is a perfect example of this. His influence, while immense, is tied to his persona. If he declines—as it seems he might—that entire structure destabilizes. And while that may cause hope, it also opens up dangerous power vacuums. The Bannons of the world are not gone. They are waiting in the wings.
This is why I often draw comparisons between scientific progress and political authoritarianism. There’s an old saying in science: progress happens one funeral at a time. Because people do not change their minds about fundamental truths, they hold onto them—desperately, irrationally—until they die. And in politics, particularly in these authoritarian and antisemitic circles, we see the same principle. These figures will not relinquish their grip voluntarily. They will not evolve. They are fossilized in their ideologies. They are not just individuals but outcrops—manifestations—of a system and worldview. And when they are gone, their structures often go with them.
And maybe that’s what gives me some hope: not that things will improve naturally, but that history moves—sometimes with terrible cost—but always with movement. And in that movement, in those moments of rupture, there’s a chance for something better to emerge.
Jacobsen: Because you mentioned that these are “load-bearing villains,” and they tend to be terrible at succession, the natural question is whether we can find some hope in that fact—that they do tremendous damage but rarely pass on their legacy in any formalized, robust way.
Weixelbaum: And that is exactly right. It might be a good way to emphasize this conversation and yesterday’s one. Populism and fascism, by their very nature, contain the seeds of their destruction. These movements flourish in liberal societies. That’s the paradox. It is precisely the openness, the pluralism, and the tolerance of liberal systems that allow them the space to emerge and grow.
It is easy to be seduced by the politics of grievance by emotionally charged movements built on outrage and fantastical, irrational thinking. You get drawn into this world where nothing matters except what you are mad about and how you can further your divisive cause through rhetoric. But these movements cannot sustain themselves on that anger alone. They spring from liberal societies because they have to. You cannot get a populist or fascist uprising in a political vacuum. They require institutions to target. They need freedom to exploit. And ultimately, they are corrosive. They destroy the very institutions that allowed them to exist in the first place.
Populism thrives on division. It is anti-coalition by nature. It is my way or the highway, and it escalates through dominance. And on a long enough timeline, the hero of a populist movement almost always becomes its next enemy. That is the entire function of populism: to create enemies to destroy. So, these movements eventually kill themselves. In the process, they cause catastrophic damage to the liberal societies from which they sprang. But they cannot last forever. Because, in the end, you cannot eat anger. You cannot be sheltered by rage. Anger cannot quench your thirst or fill your stomach. Outrage and grievance are powerful mobilizers but do not build stable societies.
People need the basics. People need clean water, safety, jobs, and public services. That is why we created governments in the first place. That is why civilizations exist. So, it is not a question of if the populist movement will implode. It will. The real question is: how many people will suffer before that happens? That’s the tragedy. Hitler envisioned a thousand-year Reich. He got twelve. He and his inner circle were far more disciplined, organized, and ideologically coherent than the band of opportunists and tech demagogues currently circling Trump, Musk, Bannon, and others. So yes, they, too, will burn out. But the concern—the fear—is that they will take many people down with them before they do.
Are there acute examples of this dynamic in American culture? Absolutely. One of the clearest examples is the Populist Party of the late 19th century. It was born out of a legitimate crisis. There was widespread anxiety, especially among farmers suffering from unregulated capitalism. There were few protections against the boom-bust cycles of the economy. These farmers lacked access to credit. A restrictive monetary system punished them. And so they formed a movement—the Populist Party—one of American history’s most dramatic grassroots movements.
It rose quickly. There was genuine energy behind it. The arguments were valid—about the elites and economic injustice. But as with most populist movements, they turned to demagogues. The most famous was William Jennings Bryan, a fiery evangelical preacher who fused religious revivalism with political rhetoric. Ultimately, the movement collapsed. It burned out fast. It could not hold its coalitions together. The internal contradictions were too great.
There’s even a cultural artifact of this moment that most people don’t realize is tied to that political era: The Wizard of Oz. It’s often read as a populist allegory. The Yellow Brick Road represents the gold standard. The Emerald City is Washington, D.C. The Scarecrow symbolizes the American farmer. The Tin Man represents industrial workers. The Cowardly Lion as Bryan himself—loud, blustering, but ultimately ineffective. It’s a brilliant metaphor for how populist movements often begin with legitimate grievances but collapse under the weight of their mythology and internal contradictions.
So yes, they implode. But we should never assume that their implosion is without cost. The Wizard of Oz, yes. L. Frank Baum was a political commentator of his time and wrote The Wizard of Oz, a parable about the populist movements. Dorothy is in Kansas, the symbolic heartland of the American farmer and populist base. Along the way, she travels on the Yellow Brick Road, which is widely interpreted to represent the gold-based monetary system of the time. She’s heading to the Emerald City—green, of course—symbolizing the idea of flexible money, or “greenbacks” as they were called in those days. In Baum’s original story, Dorothy doesn’t have ruby slippers; she has silver slippers—another reference to the silver standard advocated by populists as a more forgiving and inclusive economic model than gold.
And who does she need to convince along the way? First, she meets the Tin Man, who represents industrial workers. The issue is that he has no heart—cold, machine-like, and dehumanized by the industrial economy. Then there’s the Scarecrow, who represents farmers. He’s portrayed as lacking a brain—not because he is unintelligent, but because farmers were often viewed as uneducated or politically naive. Then there’s the Cowardly Lion—widely accepted as a caricature of William Jennings Bryan himself: all thunder and roaring rhetoric, but ultimately a coward who falters when real courage is required.
And, of course, they discover the man behind the curtain once they reach the Emerald City—the so-called elite. It’s all smoke and mirrors. It’s a performance, a trick. There’s no wizard, no magical solution. That’s the final blow of Baum’s allegory: populism often revolves around spectacle, but it’s all illusion behind the curtain. So yes, we have a deep tradition of political metaphor embedded in our cultural texts—texts like The Wizard of Oz—that many Americans and people worldwide do not realize are coded critiques of political movements like populism.
Many historians will likely bristle at this interpretation. I can feel their hackles rising already. This is my read. My expertise is more focused on the far-right and Nazi variants of these movements. Some may argue it’s only “populism” if it originates with the 19th-century American farmers’ movement. But we need to expand our definitions if we are going to understand what is happening before our eyes today.
Jacobsen: Do “load-bearing heroes” in positive movements suffer from similar issues in terms of legacy, sustainability, and passing along institutional wisdom? Or do they tend to be more successful than their authoritarian counterparts?
Weixelbaum: That’s a great question—and yes, it’s a serious problem. Historians have a term for this: the “Great Man Theory.” It’s the idea that singular, towering individuals drive historical progress. And that is a problematic lens because it oversimplifies how real, lasting change happens. While people certainly gravitate toward figures like Lincoln or FDR here in the United States, we too often forget that their successes came from legions of people working behind the scenes—drafting legislation, managing logistics, creating new bureaucracies like the Social Security Administration, or organizing massive efforts like the Allied invasion of Normandy.
These aren’t one man’s achievements—they’re many’s achievements. There’s an essential place for individual inspiration, no doubt. But the danger—especially with populism—is the temptation to attach the movement’s identity to one charismatic person. And once that person is gone, the whole thing often collapses. Populism loves a demagogue. It loves a figurehead who personifies grievance and rage. Maybe it’s just human nature—we want a hero to show up with a cape. But we keep making the same mistake: hoping someone will save us.
We need leaders who understand that solidarity is not a one-person show. We need heroes who are humble enough to empower others, decentralize their influence, build sustainable institutions, and show—by example—that real change takes everyone. Leadership should be about lifting others, not consolidating power. The more people involved in shaping that future, the more resilient it becomes.
Jacobsen: That’s a compelling point. Thanks for the insight. Now, I heard a trope—the first time I heard it, it was thrown at Dr. Norman Finkelstein, the independent political scientist. Depending on one’s point of view, he’s had a mixed career because he tends to divide people—often due to his stances or barbed commentary.
Weixelbaum: Yes.
Jacobsen: Or barbed—or I guess you could say—cutting humour, often used as punctuation to his historical work. So, I’ve done some interviews with him. He took part in my first book between 2019 and 2021, along with many others: Gideon Levy from Haaretz and Omar Shakir from Human Rights Watch. We did ten long-form interviews—many citations and very academic-leaning coverage. John Dugard, Michael Lynk, S. Michael Lynk was the UN Special Rapporteur at the time, before the current one. In between, while based in Malaysia, another interim rapporteur quit and became the executive director of ASEAN—the organization, not the political union. That was an interesting contextual detail.
So, those were some of the great center— and left-wing voices. International organizations like the UN—non-political bodies—were also included. I had a group discussion with all three of those special rapporteurs. Since they’re all legal minds, the conversation revolved around one technicality: Is the annexation of Palestinian territory de jure or de facto?
That ended up being the only distinction that the entire conversation focused on. We did not have much time, but we still discussed that issue long.
So, when I first heard the phrase “self-hating Jew” used about Norman—Norm—it was used derisively or as a term of contempt. That term raises a lot of questions and emotions. So, on first take—in an academic sense—what is the meaning behind the term politically, and what is the purpose of such a term when it is not used purely as a descriptor? Then, we can touch on the deeper aspects also at play.
Weixelbaum: Yes. I’ve known that term since I was a kid in the early ’80s. I know it’s been around even longer than I have. It doesn’t originate with the current conflict or crisis in Israel and Gaza.
At least from an academic perspective, this is a subset—a mechanism or phenomenon that I’ve encountered with other minority groups as well. It falls under what’s called respectability politics. That term comes from the Black American experience I’ve learned about and encountered. It describes the way individuals within marginalized communities may try to curry favour with groups that are oppressing them, which in turn creates division within the leading minority group—whether it is Jewish people, Black people, or others.
We’ve seen this, too, with some immigrants who voted for Trump and then later found themselves being deported. It’s quite something to witness.
There are many great scholarly works on this. The main factor I’ve observed in scholarly discussions is a negotiation between the oppressor and the oppressed. Historians have used “agency” to emphasize that oppressed people still maintain some power in shaping their reality. But what can be disturbing is how that negotiation sometimes plays out—with members of minority groups identifying with their oppressors and attempting to emulate them.
You also see this dynamic in women’s history scholarship. Some of the most virulent supporters of anti-feminist movements can be women who view their status through the lens of, “If I become the best enforcer of this patriarchal system, I’ll gain special favour.” If they push other women down, they might believe they’ll gain acceptance or status within that anti-feminist framework.
So, this is not unique to Jews—it’s a phenomenon that appears across different historically marginalized groups. It stems from that negotiation mechanism, and it is divisive and difficult. Particularly malign actors—those who know precisely how divisive such dynamics can be—are adept at weaponizing these respectability politics.
Think about the example of Black Republicans. Take Herman Cain, for instance. He seemed so invested in Trump that he attended a Trump rally and contracted COVID, which ultimately led to his death. Talk about making the ultimate sacrifice for a group that had, at that point, shown considerable hostility toward the Black community—especially amid the Trump administration’s rhetoric and actions against the Black Lives Matter movement.
I could go on about this, but that gives a solid picture.
Jacobsen: Outside of that term’s political or academic analysis, there are deeper aspects to its usage—especially geopolitically. In Norman’s case—disregarding where someone stands politically, whether on the left, right, or center—the term “self-hating Jew” was not being used purely as a descriptor. It was deployed in a very particular way. When I saw it being used, it seemed to be a term of convenience. It was being employed to immediately discredit or cancel his line of reasoning in political science about the Israeli–Palestinian conflict.
Now, on cancel culture—I’ve seen this happen across the political spectrum, so I do not think it is a culture so much a tactic. Then, some bad actors in specific political orientations use it, which can be mistaken for an entire culture. So how are you seeing this term—”self-hating Jew”—used? And how do you see people describe how it feels to be called that?
Weixelbaum: Yes. The irony is—and this connects to our earlier discussion—through my encounters and the loss of friendships since October 2023, some of those people have been Jewish. And ironically, someone else might call them self-hating Jews. I never have—because, yes, it’s a trope. It’s a way of shutting down conversation.
My response, of course, is to ask questions. “What do you know about Judaism?” “Let’s talk about the historical connection between the idea of Israel and Judaism.” Let’s unpack that instead of using a term like “self-hating Jew” to end a discussion.
Typically, though, that moment of shutdown happens when I start asking those questions—because I’m the one who gets shut down. I am not the one using that label to cancel someone. Instead, the cancellation often comes toward me.
Now, I know of Norman Finkelstein and understand the criticisms. He leans heavily into genocide rhetoric, and many who use the term “self-hating Jew,” in his case, believe that is a line he has crossed. However, that rhetorical framing is often a perversion of more rigorous discourse. Genocide scholars, in general, are much more careful about using that term. It’s specific. It’s weighty.
So, yes, it’s easier for someone to shut him down with, “Oh, you’re just a self-hating Jew,” rather than interrogate the argument. But what does genocide mean? That’s the question. Then, we would have to talk about Raphael Lemkin, who coined the term and wrote the UN Convention on Genocide.
But does anyone want to go there when they are scoring points on the internet?
Jacobsen: Their first question would be, “Who?”
Weixelbaum: Yes, exactly. That’s the point. So, this becomes a teachable moment. But then, also—what? What comes after that? If you are going to open that genocide door, then follow me. Let me put on my historian hat and take you by the hand. We will explore the problematic conversations among international lawyers about what genocide is and what it is not.
They knew the term could become continuously expansive—used to describe every instance of mass violence. And unfortunately, war continues to exist. Those legal scholars and human rights advocates at the time were concerned about misuse, which is why they were so specific when defining the term in the Genocide Convention.
There’s also a companion document—the UN’s Universal Declaration of Human Rights. A great book that discusses this is No Enchanted Palace. The author is Mark Mazower. It dives into the early days of the UN and the foundational debates. We need to demystify these types of things—the terms we use.
So, yes, to go back to “self-hating Jew,” it is, in a way, our community’s particular flavour of cancellation. Our version of “pull up your pants” was the language used in the 1990s as a form of internalized respectability politics.
When we talk about respectability politics within the Black community, it was that old line: “You’re sagging, you’re listening to gangster rap, and you’re making us all look bad.” It is the same thing today—except, instead of listening and interrogating arguments that might have some validity, there is this instinct to shut them down entirely.
I disagree profoundly with Norman Finkelstein’s definition of genocide. What is happening with Israel and Gaza is a terrible war—I do not think it is genocide. However, who am I to argue against the masses who feel otherwise? There is a scholarly debate to be had, of course.
But yes, it is a way of cancelling someone, as you noted. On a personal level, how does it feel when someone uses that label? If someone were to call me a “self-hating Jew,” yes—it would be shocking and frankly absurd. Which Jews are we even talking about? I certainly do not identify with the small minority of right-wing Jews.
Wait—I have been called that. I was called a self-hating Jew by a childhood friend who is now a far-right-wing Jew. His argument was basically: if you vote for Democrats, obviously you hate Israel because a subset of American Democrats are highly critical of Israel or anti-Israel. Therefore, I must be a self-hating Jew.
How does that feel? It feels ridiculous that we even had this conversation. I worked as a researcher at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in D.C. It seems ridiculous to me that someone would throw that at me.
Especially throughout this conversation, I hope you’ve seen that I feel more protective than ever of my Jewish community in the face of growing antisemitism. I think this reflexive urge to circle the wagons, to protect. At the same time, what the state of Israel is doing under Netanyahu is horrendous. He should not be in power. He should be in jail.
He is another politician we’ve talked about whose only reason for seeking and holding power is that he’s running from the law. We have a big problem with that. Someone—I forget who, but a Jewish leader—once said, “Netanyahu is probably the worst leader for Jews since the Bronze Age.” Some terrible Bronze Age kings made us look quite bad, so I do not know.
To be called a self-hating Jew—especially by a non-Jew—is incredibly divisive. These are internecine conflicts: who deserves to be in the in-group or the out-group? It is not good. It is corrosive. We should stay away from it.
Jacobsen: Jay, thank you very much for speaking with me today. I appreciate it. This was a substantive conversation.
Weixelbaum: I look forward to reading your writing, and I appreciate your listening. Thank you so much.
Jacobsen: Thanks. I appreciate it, Jay.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
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Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/12
Christine Abely, Assistant Professor at New England Law | Boston and licensed customs broker, explains that Trump-era tariffs, especially those implemented during his second term, introduced significant uncertainty into global trade. U.S. companies faced unpredictable tariff changes, particularly with China, complicating import planning and compliance. Legal challenges have arisen over the use of the International Emergency Economic Powers Act to justify tariffs, raising questions under domestic and WTO law. Abely notes multilateral negotiations could have been more effective, and warns importers against illegal tariff avoidance. The 90-day tariff pause spurred import surges, though port activity is expected to decline soon.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How have Trump-era tariffs reshaped U.S. import and export dynamics?
Christine Abely: The tariffs of the second Trump administration have injected an unparalleled level of uncertainty into global trading relations. There has also been an extreme amount of change since the beginning of April.
Jacobsen: What legal or regulatory challenges have American companies faced because of the fluctuating tariffs?
Abely: American companies importing products or components from outside of the United States have had to deal with this uncertainty and try to predict what might be coming next in terms of trade. The reciprocal tariffs were announced at the beginning of April for imports from all nations except Canada and Mexico. (Some imports from Canada and Mexico were made subject to additional tariffs earlier in President Trump’s second term.) Since that time, the reciprocal tariff on imports from China have skyrocketed, due to rounds of retaliatory tariffs imposed on both sides. Imports of products from China now face a staggering duty rate.
The reciprocal tariff rate consists of two components: a blanket 10% tariff, plus a rate which varies between countries. President Trump suspended the rate which varied between countries for 90 days as of April 10, but left in place the blanket 10% tariff. This is in addition to the tariffs which are regularly imposed as set forth in the Harmonized Tariff Schedule of the United States (HTSUS). American companies have had to try to guess whether the 90-day pause will end in a trade deal or trade deals with the country/countries they import from that will eliminate the blanket 10% tariff, or whether they will face increased tariffs at the end of the 90 days if no trade deal is reached and the higher rates go back into effect. It’s therefore hard for American companies to be able to plan to reduce their import bill to the greatest extent possible.
Jacobsen: Are the tariffs effective as a tool for economic leverage?
Abely: Generally speaking, the imposition of tariffs by the United States is governed by the United States’ obligations towards the World Trade Organization (WTO) and so tariffs are not meant to be used unchecked as tools of economic leverage against other nations in a departure from already-negotiated tariff rates. There are specific exceptions for tariffs which can be allowed to offset dumping (selling in a foreign market for a lower price than domestically) and government subsidies. So too do WTO obligations have a national security exception. However, President Trump is justifying as based on national security reasons tariffs which are being imposed with respect to all foreign countries, for all sorts of products. The national security exemption was clearly not intended to be used in ways that would subsume the WTO’s international trade framework as a whole.
With respect to domestic law, lawsuits have been filed which argue that the reciprocal tariffs imposed by President Trump are unlawful. President Trump justified the reciprocal tariffs based on the International Emergency Economic Powers Act (IEEPA). However, that statute does not explicitly authorize the president to impose tariffs, nor has the statute been used to do so in the past. Instead, there are trade statutes with specific procedures which the lawsuits argue should have been followed instead in order to impose tariffs. Those lawsuits are currently pending.
Jacobsen: Even if agreeing with American policy, could other maneuvers have been more effective? How do tariff policies intersect with broader geopolitical strategies?
Abely: Multilateral negotiation was another strategy that could have been used to a greater extent to deal with issues of Chinese overproduction.
Jacobsen: What should importers and multinational companies prioritize when navigating U.S. measures?
Abely: Importers should be careful not to violate international trade laws in an attempt to reduce their tariff bill. Importers should be mindful of rules prohibiting circumvention, and not attempt to illegally avoid tariffs through transshipping products through third countries. Nor should importers improperly reduce the valuation of their imports in an attempt to reduce the amount of tariffs they pay to the government.
Jacobsen: Are there any WTO implications from the use of national security justifications for tariffs (as invoked under Section 232 during the Trump administration)?
Abely: China has requested WTO dispute consultations and claims that the United States has violated its WTO obligations.
Jacobsen: As a licensed customs broker, what practical changes have U.S. businesses made to supply chains?
Abely: There was a large surge in imports as companies sought to avoid the highest tariffs during the 90-day tariff pause. Port traffic appears set to decline in the near future.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Christine.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/12
Rethink Food addresses food insecurity by transforming excess restaurant food into nutritious meals for underserved communities. Drawing on experience at Eleven Madison Park, Matt Jozwiak applies fine dining standards to social service meals, improving quality and efficiency. The organization partners with top chefs and community centers, creatively using consistent surplus ingredients and supplementing with purchased items for nutrition. Rooted in addressing wealth inequality, Rethink Food promotes community-focused growth over risky scaling. Advocating for federal tax credits and leveraging AI for food waste tracking, the nonprofit sustains jobs and deepens local impact through respectful partnerships and mission-driven innovation.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Under the leadership of Matt Jozwiak, a former chef at Eleven Madison Park and Noma, Rethink Food partners with top culinary talent to address food insecurity. Matt contributes to impactful initiatives like celebrity chef dinners, most recently featuring Andrew Zimmern, Michael Schwartz, and Marc Vetri. We hope that Levin continues to support the mission. Passionate about sustainability and social good, Josh plays a vital role in expanding Rethink Food’s reach and deepening its impact across vulnerable populations, helping to build a more equitable and resilient food system. Thank you so much for joining me today—I appreciate it. I’m glad you’re warmer than I am! So, what inspired you to get involved with Rethink Food?
Matt Jozwiak: The main thing that inspired me to start Rethink Food was my background in high-end fine dining. I also volunteered from time to time at community centers. I saw the operational challenge of running a free restaurant in a community center in East Harlem. We could make a real impact if we could leverage fine dining expertise.
Jacobsen: How about the partnership with Eleven Madison Park? How did that influence operations and visibility at Rethink Food?
Jozwiak: The partnership with Eleven Madison Park is in my blood from working there. The way we work, attention to detail and quality are not commonly found in food from social services. People in social services are focused on simply getting meals out the door, not necessarily on how good the food is. So, that experience helped us speed up operations and improve the food quality.
Regarding visibility, Daniel Humm, who cofounded Rethink Food, has been instrumental in sharing our message and mentoring me.
Jacobsen: What is the process of transforming excess food into meals for underserved communities? Your focus isn’t on speed or bulk production but rather on detail while ensuring that you use the food properly.
Jozwiak: Yes. I don’t know how to explain this easily, Scott, because when people hear “excess food,” they tend to picture wilted lettuce or a bruised apple. But that’s not what we’re talking about. I once worked at four restaurants simultaneously—so I know how different restaurants can be regarding food quality and efficiency.
It’s really about connecting great restaurateurs with supply chain opportunities. Sometimes, we pay restaurants to use their excess food to prepare meals. Then, distribute those meals to community centers.
At our Sustainable Community Kitchen in Greenwich Village, we receive donations and excess ingredients. A good example is Eleven Madison Park’s famous mushroom dish. They use the core of the trumpet mushroom. We take the sides they don’t use, grind them up into a mushroom ragù, cool it down, stir in some pasta, and distribute it. There’s creativity involved, but surprisingly, the excess food in the supply chain is quite consistent.
Jacobsen: Is that consistency due to the techniques chefs use during food prep? Or does it have more to do with seasonality?
Jozwiak: Seasonality plays a significant role, yes.
So, in the springtime, you’ll see many mushrooms. In the fall, you’ll see a lot of squash, apples, and things like that. That’s just how the seasons flow. So, the excess type you’ll see is pretty consistent.
We also purchase much food. Our commitment is to the community centers—ensuring they have the best food possible. We buy a lot of starches and proteins, and then we leverage a lot of excess vegetables. For example, a weird-shaped eggplant that does not meet the visual standard for a dish might get donated. Or, if Trader Joe’s orders way too many red peppers, we’ll take those peppers and use them.
Jacobsen: Now, the big question—foundational to the entire concept of Rethink Food—is: why is there sufficient food insecurity in the United States to warrant organizations like yours? Why is food insecurity still so prevalent in a country where one might assume there’s enough to go around?
Jozwiak: Yes, absolutely. The core issue behind food insecurity is wealth inequality. That remains the main structural problem, particularly in cities like New York. Living costs here are astronomical, and wages have not kept up.
Whether minimum or subminimum, wages haven’t risen significantly since the 1990s. In New York, the minimum wage has increased to $16.50 an hour. But even if you’re earning $20 an hour, it’s still almost impossible to afford a one-bedroom apartment in the city.
We won’t pay your rent or cover your childcare. But if we can take care of lunch occasionally, we might save someone $30 or $40 a week, which can make a real difference.
Jacobsen: Are there any logistical challenges in sourcing and redistributing surplus food? You mentioned some of the technical issues earlier.
Jozwiak: Yes—absolutely. It’s a logistical and communications challenge at its core.
The main challenges include communicating what types of food can be donated, clarifying whether donating food is legal and safe, and ensuring that people actually let us know when they have food available. It’s an ongoing issue of inventory management and communication.
Jacobsen: How have high-profile chefs helped with visibility and raising awareness around food insecurity?
Jozwiak: They’ve done a great job. Daniel Humm has been the most impactful. What I appreciate about Daniel is that he’s truly taken the time to understand the issue. Before getting involved, he wanted to know the details.
Sometimes, when a high-profile chef posts on Instagram, “Everyone’s starving,” the issue can be exaggerated in ways that miss the deeper context. That kind of messaging can miss the forest for the trees.
But Daniel and Michael Schwartz in Miami also took the time to learn. For example, they found that approximately 40% of students at community colleges are food insecure. That’s the population we’re serving. So, their next question was: “All right, how do we address that, and why is that the case?”
Jozwiak: People often think about the bread lines of the Great Depression—but that’s not what’s happening. That image is outdated. The reality of food insecurity today is more hidden and nuanced.
Jacobsen: Are there any issues with maintaining the nutritional value of repurposed meals?
Jozwiak: Yes, absolutely. We adhere to pretty strict nutritional guidelines when preparing meals. To meet those standards, we often need to supplement with purchased food, especially to ensure proper amounts of protein, fibre, and micronutrients.
Jacobsen: What metrics do you use to measure your social and environmental impact?
Jozwiak: Oh, that’s a great question. We measure several things: carbon offsets, water savings—a big one for us—and our social impact.
Socially, we track the number of jobs we help support. Last year alone, we distributed about $51 million in direct payments to restaurants so they could prepare meals for local community centers. On average, every $20,000 helps support one job. It may not cover a full salary, but it does help create or sustain a hire.
Again, a lot of the challenge ties back to food insecurity and wealth inequality. Restaurant jobs are often frowned upon or overlooked. But I’ve only ever worked in restaurants, and I can tell you: if you need a job from 4 to 10 PM, you can get one. If you need a shift from 6 PM to 1 AM, you can find one. That’s the beauty of the industry—it offers flexibility.
It helps people juggle other things, like gig work or small businesses, find some consistency. You might be driving Uber in the morning, running an Amazon store, or doing freelance work. A restaurant job gives you structure and a steady income.
Another key thing we look at is family meals. If you’ve worked in restaurants, you remember family meals—those communal meals shared by staff before service. But in our context, Family Meal is also the name of New York City’s largest food nonprofit that no one talks about. It feeds more low—and middle-income New Yorkers than all the other nonprofits combined—by a factor of five.
Jacobsen: How do you see expanding your impact—not just in terms of doing more of what you’re doing, but also through deeper partnerships with local community organizations?
Jozwiak: Great question. Internally, we say we don’t scale; we grow. There’s a big difference.
Scaling is risky. You can unintentionally do harm if you try to apply one idea uniformly across vastly different communities—whether in New York, Miami, or elsewhere. Growth, on the other hand, means listening, learning, and adapting. We spend much time meeting with community leaders, asking questions like: “Do you need iftar meals at 9 PM during Ramadan?” If the answer is yes, we figure out how to make that happen—what food to provide, who to partner with, and how to do it respectfully.
Passover is coming up. We’re working with the Jewish community to provide kosher-for-Passover meals to older, homebound adults. That’s what growth looks like.
Jacobsen: And what would enable that kind of growth nationally?
Jozwiak: A tax credit. Right now, restaurants get a deduction for donating food—but that’s not helpful for a small LLC pulling in $1.6 million in revenue with just $4,000 in taxable income. A deduction barely moves the needle.
We need a tax credit—something with real value that incentivizes participation across the industry and supports small businesses that want to do the right thing.
Jozwiak: But if you get a tax deduction, even for a hundred thousand dollars, the actual financial benefit is minimal—especially for small businesses. But if you get a tax credit, that’s more or less a dollar-for-dollar value back. That’s a real incentive. So, we’re currently lobbying for a federal food donation tax credit to be included in the next Farm Bill.
Jacobsen: What about new technology? I’ve interviewed some people focused on using AI and automation to handle repetitive or mundane restaurant tasks—things like prep tracking or inventory sorting. The idea is to boost productivity. Can you envision incorporating something like that at Rethink Food to expand your current growth?
Jozwiak: Yes, for sure. We’re actively exploring several AI-driven solutions. As mentioned earlier, inventory management is a major challenge in our space. We’re working with a company that’s developed a system involving cameras placed over trash cans, which are also on scales. It tracks what gets thrown away and measures weight in real-time. That data helps us optimize ordering and reduce waste.
Inventory, ordering, and production efficiency are extremely difficult in restaurants—because so much is variable. If it suddenly starts raining, no one shows up. You could be over-prepared or under-resourced in a matter of hours. So AI has real potential to help smooth that unpredictability.
Also, communication is huge. It’s about saying, “Hey, we have this product available,” or “We’re out of that.” We run a lean operation. We’re one of the larger food nonprofits on the East Coast, and we get by with just 19 staff members. A traditional nonprofit of our size requires at least 50. We rely heavily on technology and tools to make that happen.
Jacobsen: What advice would you give someone looking to launch a similarly mission-driven initiative in the food space?
Jozwiak: My advice for anyone, regardless of age, would be this: focus on solving an actual problem. Don’t be a hammer in search of a nail. If there’s already an existing solution out there, support that. But if you see a gap, and you’ve done the research and confirmed that the problem is real and underserved, go all in.
When I started Rethink, nobody was picking up excess prepared meals or doing anything with them. So there was a nail, and I became the hammer. But make sure you’re addressing a real need. Be hard-headed and persistent.
And don’t go into this kind of work—especially in the restaurant or nonprofit world—to make yourself feel better. People sometimes get into philanthropy thinking, “I have a hole in my heart, and if I do good things, I’ll feel fulfilled.” That’s not enough. If you’re getting paid by a nonprofit, it’s a blessing and comes with responsibility. You must be mission-focused, vigilant, and hard-working—not just emotionally driven.
Jacobsen: What about public perception? Are there barriers you face, personally or as an organization—especially from people who might feel threatened or misunderstand what you’re doing?
Jozwiak: Absolutely. There are many challenges, some of them weird and frustrating. I work from 8 AM to 11 PM, five or six days a week. I’m married, and my wife is usually a little mad at me, to be honest. So yeah, there’s a personal toll. You could call it “married luck,” I guess.
On a broader level, it’s a communications challenge. People have this outdated idea that food insecurity is just about the guy on the corner holding a sign. But that’s often a mental health issue, not a food access issue. The people we’re trying to serve are working two jobs, attending school, or supporting families. They can’t afford basic, quality meals. That nuance is often lost in the public conversation.
Jozwiak: Most students cannot afford lunch on Saturdays—that’s our issue. The biggest challenges are related to communication and education. Once people understand the real nature of food insecurity, funding streams tend to open up, and people become excited to help. But the communications piece—the comms behind it—is often the hardest part.
Jacobsen: What’s your favourite chef quote?
Jozwiak: When I was cooking in France, I heard a quote from a chef that stuck with me—and I still believe in it. It’s a little long, but here it is:
“Be the last guy to leave the kitchen with the sous chef. The sous chef usually closes the kitchen. In the beginning, he’ll ask you to turn off the gas. The next day, he’ll ask you to check the walk-in and ensure it’s running. The next day, he’ll ask you to turn off all the electricity. And on the fourth day—he’ll get lazy. That’s the day you take his job.”
Jacobsen: That was a dry bar comedy moment with Matt Jozwiak. Thank you so much—I appreciate it. Nice to meet you.
Jozwiak: Yes, thanks so much, Scott. I appreciate the time. Enjoy your trip. It looks beautiful out there. I’m jealous—it’s gorgeous. Super gorgeous.
Jacobsen: It’s a little chilly, but it’ll warm up. Thank you, man.
Jozwiak: Thanks. Bye.
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Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/10
Amos N. Guiora, J.D., Ph.D., is a legal scholar and former IDF Lieutenant Colonel whose work focuses on institutional complicity and the legal accountability of bystanders and enablers. Shaped by his Holocaust-survivor parents and counterterrorism background, Guiora pioneered legal frameworks addressing bystander culpability, authoring The Crime of Complicity, Armies of Enablers, and The Complicity of Silence. His advocacy inspired Utah’s 2021 bystander law. Through the Bystander Initiative at the University of Utah, he campaigns for criminalizing enablers, arguing that religious, educational, or athletic institutions often protect perpetrators rather than victims. Guiora draws a direct line from the Holocaust to contemporary abuse cases, highlighting the recurring failure of institutions to act. He emphasizes that through silence or action, enablers perpetuate harm and must be held accountable under the law. His tireless work seeks systemic reform through legislative change, education, and survivor-centered justice. “All hands on deck,” he says, summarizing his approach.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Amos N. Guiora, J.D., Ph.D. He is an Israeli-American legal scholar, a retired Lieutenant Colonel in the Israel Defense Forces (IDF), and a Professor of Law at the S.J. Quinney College of Law, University of Utah. He is a global authority on institutional complicity and bystander accountability. He authored The Crime of Complicity: The Bystander in the Holocaust, Armies of Enablers: Survivor Stories of Complicity and Betrayal in Sexual Assaults, and The Complicity of Silence: Confronting Ecosystems of Child Sexual Abuse in Schools. His work, shaped by his family’s Holocaust legacy and decades of counterterrorism legal experience, helped inspire Utah’s 2021 bystander criminalization law—one of the first of its kind in the United States.
He previously chaired Gymnastics Canada’s Task Force on Abuse and is an advisor to S.E.S.A.M.E. (Stop Educator Sexual Abuse, Misconduct & Exploitation). His academic roles include Distinguished Fellowships at the Consortium for the Research and Study of Holocaust and the Law (Chicago-Kent College of Law) and the International Center for Conflict Resolution (University of Pittsburgh). He directs the Bystander Initiative at the University of Utah. He is a widely cited advocate for confronting institutional ecosystems that enable abuse in schools and other settings. That will be our focus today. So, how did your personal background and military legal career shape your focus on clergy abuse and institutional complicity?
Dr. Amos N. Guiora: Those last two topics may converge: When I retired from the IDF 21 years ago and entered American academia, my early scholarship focused on what I had done during my two decades in the IDF—mainly counterterrorism and national security law. But around twelve years ago, while training for the Salt Lake City Marathon, my running partner—who is not Jewish—asked me, “How did this happen?” This means the Holocaust. I gave what I thought was a smart academic answer: “I don’t know.”
Both of my parents—now deceased—were Holocaust survivors. I’m an only child. I was raised in a home where the Holocaust was never discussed. When I was twelve, my father took me canoeing—why canoeing, I still do not know—and he said, “In one minute, I’ll tell you my story. In one minute, I’ll tell you your mother’s story. And this will be the first and last time we discuss it.” The word Holocaust was never mentioned in the house. There were no books on the subject at home.
When my running partner asked me that question, I realized I didn’t know. I decided to become an autodidact on the Holocaust. Of course, you can’t read everything—there are thousands of books—but it became clear to me that one issue had never been analyzed through the law’s lens: the bystander’s legal culpability.
There were two notable books on the bystander—one by historian Raul Hilberg and another by sociologist Victoria Barnett. But no one had addressed it from a legal standpoint.
When I first met with Dr. Barnett, a senior scholar at the U.S. Holocaust Memorial Museum in Washington at the time, I told her I was thinking of writing about bystanders and the law. I was admittedly nervous. She told me, “You’ll be the first to do it. You’ll set the bar.” I thought, “Okay, here we go.”
I went on to write The Crime of Complicity: The Bystander in the Holocaust, which has been translated into Dutch and Chinese. I’ve lectured worldwide on the book. I was done with this topic. I had written about the Holocaust, about my parents, and the bystander—I finally thought I understood my parents’ story. I was right about my dad.
I thought I understood my mom’s story, too, but not fully—I’ll get to that moment.
Then, I was having dinner with my editors at the American Bar Association in Chicago, and the editor—a great guy, Brian K.—asked me, “What’s next?”
I said, “I’m done. Going back to counterterrorism. Thank you very much.”
He said, “Yes, but you’ve heard about the Catholic Church?”
I said, “Well, Brian, even though I’m Jewish, yes—I have.”
He replied, “You’re a huge sports fan.” And it’s true. I used to have a radio show in Israel about American sports.
Then he said, “Well, there’s your next book.”
Like a dummy, I said, “Okay.”
That book became Armies—plural—of Enablers. I interviewed survivors from USA Gymnastics, Michigan State, football athletes and students from Ohio State. I couldn’t get to the boys from Penn State. That book changed my life in many ways. Since then, I’ve written articles on the topic.
Then, about three years ago, I came across a complicated story—the murder of a 12-year-old boy named Jeremy Bell. He was murdered in West Virginia in 1997 by a teacher who was a known pedophile. Everyone knew—and enablers surrounded him. It was all about enablers.
That case has become a focal point for me. I still occasionally write about counterterrorism—especially after October 7and what happened in Israel—but my primary focus now is enablers and bystanders.
You referenced the Bystander Initiative at the S.J. Quinney College of Law. I’ve just finished a new book that looks at societal enablers during the Holocaust and modern-day enablers in Israel—specifically, those who enable Prime Minister Netanyahu. For me, all of these issues are connected.
In plain English, I’m focused on the bystander and the enabler. And if we’re being honest, I’m probably obsessive about it—because all roads run through the enabler and the bystander.
Jacobsen: How would you describe the bystander effect within the context of clergy-related abuse?
Guiora: The bystander is the person who is physically present—they see the abuse occur. That’s distinct from the enabler, who either knows of the harm or should know of the harm based on their role, position, or institutional status.
Three or four legislative sessions ago, in Utah, mandatory reporting laws were expanded to include bystanders, thanks to Representative Brian King and Senator Curtis Bramble. That was a critical step. As for the enabler, we haven’t had legislative success yet—not in Utah. We came close in the Netherlands, but it didn’t pass.
In the context of priest abuse—whether the bystander is another priest in the room or a church official nearby—most of the cases I’ve examined don’t involve someone physically present during the abuse.
But in general—particularly with the Catholic Church—the institutional response, as highlighted in the Pulitzer Prize-winning Spotlight reporting and film, has been to move the priest to another parish. That’s what’s often called “passing the trash.” I don’t love the term, but the label is stuck.
And the result is that the priest—the abusive priest—is just shuffled off to another parish and becomes someone else’s problem. But these guys are not one-and-done. It’s repeat behavior. So, if they did it in Parish A, they can do it in Parish B. That same behaviour repeats itself, frankly, regardless of denomination. There was a rabbi in Israel who was convicted either last week or two weeks ago.
Same story. When you hear the boys’ accounts—he abused boys—when you listen to their accounts, you could just as easily be hearing about the Catholic Church. Or this church, or that church—whatever the denomination. In all of them, nothing is more important than the institution. And—pardon my English—the victim be damned. That is what enablers do.
Jacobsen: So, you got your story about the Holocaust quickly while canoeing. By the way, what you were told was accurate. What was the misinformation from your dad?
Guiora: My father and both my parents were from Hungary. My father was in a work camp in Yugoslavia called Bor. He told me in that one-minute story that nothing bad ever happened there. That was 100% not accurate. I met with a Hungarian scholar, Professor Czapádi. It took him nineteen years to write the history of that camp. White Holocaust historians have defined it as the single most brutal work camp there was.
My mother was the Hungarian version of Anne Frank—in the attic with my grandmother. She was twice taken to be shot. I know how she was saved the first time—when she was already lined up against the wall. I figured out how she was saved the second time.
What I did not know when I wrote The Crime of Complicity—what I only learned after my mother died three years ago during the shiva—were additional facts about her life after the Holocaust: how she escaped and how she was imprisoned in Czechoslovakia. None of that I knew.
When I was writing the book, my father was dying. I wanted to finish it before he passed. When I met with Professor Czapádi, he told me how my father had survived two death marches. When I asked my mom, “How did he survive?” she told me word for word what he had told me when I was 12. And I said, “That’s not the story. That’s not it.”
She was surprised. “Why didn’t he ever tell me?” And I asked, “Why didn’t you guys ever tell me?” They had made a decision when they got married that they would never share their Holocaust stories with their children. I’m an only child, and they had promised each other never to tell me their story.
There’s a long discussion in Holocaust literature about how survivors choose whether—or how—to educate or share their stories with their children. But my parents decided not to discuss it at all.
Jacobsen: In conversations with other children of Holocaust survivors throughout your life, is that a common theme?
Guiora: Yes. It’s a mixed bag. I have friends who, at dinner, the main conversation—not the only one, but a central piece—was the Holocaust. I have other friends who knew more than I did but less than those others. It’s a mixed bag. Like me, I also have friends in Israel who knew nothing about their parents’ stories.
Recently, I’ve spoken to about a thousand sixth, seventh, and eighth graders in Salt Lake City about this. Sixth graders—beautifully unfiltered—asked me if I was mad at my parents for not sharing their stories with me. Not at all. I’m not judgmental in the least. It was their decision, and I respect that. But I am glad I now know their story, and I’m in a position to write about it.
Jacobsen: Do you think this significantly influenced the trajectory of your academic and research interests?
Guiora: If you had asked me fifteen years ago, I would have said no. But after training for the marathon and the life-changing question asked by my running partner, there’s no doubt about it. It changed everything. For me, all roads—when I examine the enabler—run through the role of the enabler during the Holocaust.
So yes, to your question: 100%, it frames—consciously or unconsciously—how I view the enabler. Without a doubt, that lens is the Holocaust.
What is also important to note—and we can talk about this more—my grandfather, who was murdered in Auschwitz in May of 1944, took four books with him. That’s what he had. He took them because, as they were told, “You’re going to be resettled in the East.” Those four books somehow made their way from Auschwitz—we don’t know how—to the private library of Julius Streicher, who was the editor of Der Stürmer and one of the chief Nazi ideologues.
It’s an extraordinary story, which we could talk about at length. But those books, eighty years later, are now in my possession. It’s an incredible, full-circle story. There have been articles written about it. To your excellent question—yes, the issue of enablers and bystanders for me is completely framed by the Holocaust and my parents’ experiences.
Jacobsen: How much do the books cost?
Guiora: Which books?
Jacobsen: The ones from the editor are from Streicher.
Guiora: So it’s interesting—Streicher, I’ve read a lot about him recently. He viewed himself as an expert on Judaism, particularly the Talmud or Jewish scripture. Those are the four books my grandfather took with him.
My father grew up in abject poverty. So when my grandparents—on May 12, 1944—were deported from their town in Hungary to Auschwitz, they were told to bring their belongings. What my grandfather had were books. That’s what he took with him. Those were his belongings.
I now have them—not with me where I am currently, but at home—and they’re the only thing I have of my grandfather. I don’t have any photos, and I don’t have anything from my grandmother. I have one picture. Now I have, in my possession, what my grandfather took with him to Auschwitz. My grandparents were gassed—murdered—we believe on May 26, 1944.
Streicher, by contrast, was hanged after the Nuremberg Trials. So my grandfather was gassed, and Streicher was eventually sent to the gallows. And now, I have the books. And those four books—for me, it’s full circle.
Jacobsen: Why is there this weakness in traditionalist religious structures, where a percentage of highly trained academicians or clergy commit crimes—primarily against two categories: young boys and adult women? In one quadrant, you have pedophilia; in the other, you have sexual assault.
Guiora: I’m not an expert on perpetrators or pedophiles. A significant body of literature about their needs, cravings, attractions, etc. But the larger question—which is the one you’re asking—is why the institution enters institutional protection mode.
There are a variety of reasons for that. No institution wants its name splashed across a New York Times headline—”Another Priest,” “Another Rabbi,” “Another Abuser.” So, the instinctive response of any institution, including faith-based ones, is institutional protection mode.
The enabler within a religious institution—or in sports teams or elsewhere—directly protects the institution. They’re indirectly protecting the perpetrator. The perpetrator benefits from the institution being protected. However, the result is the continued vulnerability of the victim. I hate the phrase, but it’s pretty literally like leading sheep to slaughter—because the institution must be protected, and the consequences be damned.
It’s a pattern that repeats itself repeatedly. Unfortunately, the enabler is never held accountable. Now, again, I’m a law professor. I’m not a moralist. I’m not an anthropologist. I’m not a psychologist. For me, it’s all about accountability—through the lens of the law. That’s where the Bystander Initiative comes in. The effort is to convince legislators to enact laws that hold enablers criminally accountable. Because otherwise—nothing will change.
Jacobsen: Does the shuffling of clergy over decades inadvertently create the perception that abuse is more prevalent than it is? Say, three out of a hundred clergy are offenders—but if you shuffle those three between multiple parishes, it can appear as if twelve out of a hundred are offenders. These recidivists are not held accountable and keep getting moved.
Guiora: I understand the question. But the point is that the recidivist starts in Parish A, is shuffled to Parish B, and then again to Parish C. Along the way, you have enablers in A, B, and C. The enablers don’t care how many priests are perpetrating the crime. That’s not the metric. The real question—the only question—is: How many children are in harm’s way?
It doesn’t matter whether there are three, six, or nine priests. What matters is the number of children who are being exposed to harm. The same is true for teachers, who are also shuffled. This only continues to place vulnerable children at risk—that’s the cost of enabling.
If you think about Edgar Fredericks—the teacher and principal who murdered Jeremy Bell after over thirty years of abuse—he moved from place to place, from school to school. And who knows how many boys he attacked? It’s a lot. He knew that wherever he went, he would be protected by enablers. That protection—sorry for repeating “enable”—allowed him to act with impunity and immunity because he knew he would be shielded. No school administrator or district official wants a banner headline screaming: “Pedophile Teacher, Perpetrator in Our Midst.” Nobody wants that.
So, what do they do? They shuffle him off, or they ignore the complaints. That is precisely what happened in his case, and it ultimately resulted in the murder of a child. What kinds of theological excuses are given? What types of standard social excuses are offered? And are those excuses sufficiently distinct to be considered different categories? No. When it comes to the perpetrator, no.
The priest assaulted the Catholic church survivors whom I interviewed. One of the women I interviewed was in high school when the priest attacked her, and she was laughing about it. She’s a little bit younger than me. She was laughing about it. She said, “I felt for the oldest line in the world, which was, to know the Lord, you must know my body.” She asks, “Can you believe I felt for that?” And she was on this camping trip with her friend.
She says, “My friend, dumb as me, also fell for the same line. Today, we laugh.” I don’t know if they laugh, but we’ll go with a laugh. That’s an old line. When I told other church survivors, they said, “Yep.”
That line works. “Lord, to know the lord, you must know my body. “One of the women who I interviewed was assaulted by the family priest from the age of seven till 14. He was a master groomer. He knew that the family had issues. He locked in on her.
And when it was brought to the mother’s attention that the priest was abusing her daughter, the mom said, “Oh, he loves her.” That’s what groomers do: They do the child and the parent. Another person, a guy who was 12 when he was assaulted. He had a great relationship. This is positive from his perspective. Had a great relationship with the priest.
The priest took advantage of that and was quietly shuffled off. However, the victim I spent significant time with had a great relationship with him. The priest was an important figure in his life and took complete—nefarious would be the polite word—nefarious advantage of that. One interviewee even framed it as having “two fathers,” a poignant play on words.
Yes. And, basically, not even with much reluctance. The person who committed the abuse was also someone the victim loved. That was part of the abuse. He was a paternal figure in the victim’s life—a platonic, paternalistic form of love.
The two victims I’ve spent significant time with both saw the priest as a genuinely important person in their lives. Absolutely. And that probably makes it more devastating—when they realize that the priest was taking full advantage of what I suppose you could call affection or even adoration.
I don’t know. But whether it’s a seven-year-old or a twelve-year-old, the last thing in the world a priest should be doing is engaging with them sexually. And when they’re simply shuffled off, it means the next victim is just around the corner—which is precisely what happened with the boy, Jeremy Bell. It’s clear that the killer, Friedrichs, should never have been in contact with that little boy. That child should never have even seen that teacher.
Friedrichs should have been in jail years earlier. In the same way that, in sports, you have these systems—these armies of enablers—I wrote about this in connection with the girls who were assaulted by Dr. Larry Nassar, who was exalted for his work with USA Gymnastics. Or Dr. Richard Strauss at Ohio State: if you wanted to play, you had to see him. Or Dr. Robert Anderson at the University of Michigan—same thing. If you wanted to play, you had to go through Anderson.
These individuals often take full advantage of their positions of authority and are frequently enabled—actively or passively—by the institutions in which they operate. That is why I say that whether it is a school, a church, or a faith-based institution, there tends to be a recurring pattern of behaviour. The perpetrator often feels confident and protected, which emboldens continued abuse.
Perpetrators act with the assurance that they will be shielded from consequences. That is the core issue. While I understand that the media, prosecutors, and the courts focus heavily on the perpetrator—and I have met with many in those systems—the systemic failure often lies in the protection offered by the institution itself.
We must hold the enablers accountable if we are genuinely committed to meaningful change in churches, schools, or any environment. Without that, no real progress can occur.
I was recently asked whether I have seen examples of small church communities or other institutions where the internal culture has changed enough to create safe ecosystems without relying on external oversight or security. The truth is, I have not. That does not mean such communities do not exist. Still, the people who contact me are almost always victims or survivors—not representatives of successful reforms.
Jacobsen: So, do you have positive examples to point to?
Guiora: No. But again, that may be because individuals in healthy environments are not the ones reaching out. I hear from those who have been harmed.
Jacobsen: Are there differences between religious institutions and other settings, such as sports organizations or schools, when perpetrators are protected?
Guiora: Structurally, no. The pattern remains the same: institutions prioritize their reputation over accountability. However, in faith-based settings, the justification may sometimes involve religious language or spiritual rationalizations—phrases like “know your body, know the Lord.” That kind of rhetoric is typically absent from schools or sports environments.
But language aside, the effects are comparable. In all contexts, the harm increases vulnerability for children or other individuals under institutional care. Whether in faith, education, or athletics, the core issue is institutional protection of offenders, not protection of the vulnerable.
Jacobsen: You mentioned Canadian gymnastics.
Guiora: Yes. I was chair of the federal government’s Working Group on Gender Equity in Sport, which produced recommendations in 2019. Across the board, we saw the same pattern: harm, denial, and institutional self-preservation.
In religious contexts, the behaviour may be obscured with theological framing. However, regardless of how it is presented, the outcomes are consistent, and to call them merely “damaging” would be an understatement.
What becomes clear when speaking with survivors is the profound injustice they realize in hindsight: they never should have come into contact with the perpetrator in the first place. In many cases, the offender had prior allegations or investigations and remained in their role.
That retrospective awareness is a form of revictimization. Survivors often say, “I never should have met that person,” once they understand that the perpetrator could—and should—have been removed long ago. Yet institutional protection kept them in place.
Jacobsen: It reminds me of physicist Richard Feynman’s idea of the “paths forward for science.” In these institutional cases, we can also imagine paths forward—at least three: faith, sport, and education. However, we remain stuck in repeating the cycle unless we confront the enabling systems.
Regarding survivors’ healing arc, I see three general paths. Of course, there’s more nuance, but broadly speaking, one path is the most tragic: suicide, self-injury, stagnation—surviving but still very much suffering from the incidents. The second is a state of suspended harm, where people function but remain deeply affected. The third path is thriving. These individuals have integrated the trauma into their narrative and gone on to build fulfilling lives for themselves and often with others. In your experience, what is more likely in these instances?
Guiora: From the people I have interviewed—someone once tried to keep count—I have interacted in one way or another with sexual assault survivors from over 30 countries. I do not have the statistics to break down the proportions of those who remain suffering, those who stagnate, or those who move forward and thrive.
The easy answer is that I would never want to be in their shoes. Some have become powerful advocates, and they deserve every ounce of praise for that.
But people reach out to me—across all three domains, whether faith, sport, or school—as I have been told repeatedly because I focus almost exclusively on the legal culpability of the enabler. I am not saying I am the only one doing it, but I’ve been told I’m most actively engaged on that issue.
Some survivors have had a tough time. In at least two cases I know personally, family members did not believe them when they came forward, and they took their own lives. Yes, there is anger—but what stands out is how that anger is directed.
When I interviewed the women—who refer to themselves as “girls”—who were assaulted by Larry Nassar, the doctor affiliated with Michigan State and USA Gymnastics, they were not focused on him. Yes, he did terrible things, and he was a predator. But their most profound anger was directed at the enablers. When they begin to reverse engineer what happened and start to articulate it—this is the word survivors often use: articulate—it is a turning point.
It is a form of healing, I believe, to understand that as evil as Nassar was—and he was—the broader, more insidious issue was the people who protected him: the coaches, doctors, and trainers who, whether out of self-interest or institutional loyalty, kept him shielded. Those individuals directly or indirectly protected him, whether at Michigan State or within USA Gymnastics. He was the beneficiary of their inaction.
Jacobsen: That same pattern seems to occur in religious contexts as well. The same institutional dynamics exist in church abuse cases. When trying to codify legal frameworks and consequences for enablers, how do we distinguish between degrees of culpability—between those with apparent, intentional complicity and those without?
Guiora: Context is essential to creating a legally sound and morally reasonable framework. When I testified four or five years before the Parliament of Victoria in Australia, I made a mistake—one I now publicly acknowledge. I initially defined the enabler’s role as a “crime of omission.” But that was incorrect. It is a crime of commission because the enabler has decided not to act. That choice is itself an act.
For that decision, the enabler must be held criminally accountable. The challenge, from both a jurisprudential and legislative perspective, is that enablers are often not physically present at the scene of the abuse. So, to hold them accountable, you must legally prove that they were aware of the abuse or the risk of abuse and prove intent under the standard of mens rea, or guilty mind. This is what makes enabler accountability legally complex but no less necessary.
I understand because I have been repeatedly told that pursuing enablers is challenging. I accept that challenge. On the other hand, I am fully aware of the harm enablers cause and the consequences of their actions.
To say that this work is hard does not deter me from pushing forward. When you spend as much time with survivors as I do, you understand the depth of the harm inflicted by enablers. So yes, it is hard—absolutely. But so what? In case after case, I can document instances where the enabler knew what was happening and deliberately chose not to act on behalf of the vulnerable. Instead, they decided to protect the institution. For that, they must be held accountable. That is not a crime of omission; that is a crime of commission.
This is the same reasoning I used in my recent book, where I examined societal enablers in Hungary, focusing on the period leading up to and during the Holocaust—something I wrote about because of my parents’ experiences. I see parallels today in Israel with those enabling Prime Minister Netanyahu. They know the harm he is causing in the same way people knew what was happening eighty years ago.
To hide behind a claim of “lack of knowledge” does not stand up to scrutiny—because I can prove that they did know.
Jacobsen: Does this become more complicated when dealing with adult survivors who were abused as children?
Guiora: Absolutely. The people I work with are now adults, but they were harmed when they were children. I applaud them for coming forward—it takes immense courage.
Think about the Michigan State, Penn State, and Ohio State survivors. These were student-athletes. Or consider the survivors of religious institutions or children abused by teachers in schools. Some of them had a tough time moving forward. Not everyone welcomes or supports them.
One woman I spent time with wasn’t even sure she was assaulted—she believed she had been in a consensual relationship. It is, sadly, the same old story. She faced, in polite terms, hostile social media attacks from people she went to school with.
Another woman who came forward about Larry Nassar told me—pardon my language; I am quoting her directly—she was “slut-shamed.” And only after others came forward confirming her account did they apologize. But the damage was done. There is always a price for speaking out.
Some survivors become emotionally exhausted from being seen as “professional victims.” They want to move on with their lives—which I completely understand. One woman said speaking publicly so her children would know her whole story was vital. That is incredibly courageous, and it is not easy by any means.
Some survivors feel strongly that the public should see a name and face attached to the experience—not just “victim.”They want to claim their identity and their agency. On the other hand, some prefer anonymity—Jane Doe or John Doe—because they want to protect themselves, their families, and their children. And I fully respect that.
Anyone who comes forward deserves to be applauded and supported—not physically embraced—many do not want that—but embraced in spirit, acknowledged, and believed. That is the least we can do.
Jacobsen: Now, the image we have in our minds, which is statistically substantiated, is men who abuse boys and adult women. So pedophilia in the first instance, as you’re noting in, sex results in sex results in the latter. A few cases are not that, and it goes against the stereotypes you have about these things with generalizations. Those are important to cover in case there are any differences. So, for instance, in Canadian media, there was some news about nuns who were in there, I believe, eighties or even nineties, who were going to court because people had come forward against them for abuse.
There might be physical imposition differences in terms of the amount of damage that can be done if there’s physical abuse involved. But, when it comes to the stuff in terms of its psychology and, more to your point, more of your expertise around its ecosystem, are there big, small, or no differences? Is it even a reasonable question?
Guiora: No. It’s a reasonable question, but for anybody who abuses a child knowing that the institution protects them, it doesn’t matter if it’s in the church context, whether it’s a priest or a nun. I have heard of cases of nuns abusing in the same way that I don’t know about in Canada, but there have been several instances here. One of the guys who I interviewed, a little bit older than me, when he was in seventh grade, had sex daily with his female teacher, k, in her house with her husband in the house.
When they met later in life, he asked her, “Do you understand how much harm you caused me?” Her response was, “We have to understand.” I hate that line. “You have to understand. You have to understand what a difficult time I was going through.”
If you’re going through it, you’re an adult.
He was 12. However, there are cases of female teachers having sex with high school boys. I don’t think it’s in the exact numbers as with male teachers, female or female students, or male students, but that’s also out there. And when we met, when we talked, sure, there was, “This, maybe, is uncomfortable,” but when you were in seventh and eighth grade, there was a cool factor in having sex with your teacher. On the other hand, the harm caused him was significant.
Jacobsen: In your interviews, what words describe the experience? If not specific words, what emotional tones do you use?
Guiora: Well, the best example I can give you is her name. I’ve written that we’ve spent many hours together and about her. Her name is Tiffany Thomas.
She was a softball player at Michigan State University. She was violated by Larry Nassar somewhere 50 times, and we were on Skype. I was home in Israel. It’s not important where she lives. She starts grabbing her throat.
I’m screaming at her because she’s choking.
I’m thinking, “Well, here’s the irony of ironies. I’m the bystander guy.”
I’m picking up my cell phone. I said, “Who the hell do I call?”
“Barbara, she lives here.”
I say, “What the hell do I do?” Screaming at her.
“Stop. Stop. Stop. Stop.” She finally stopped.
And I said, “What was that?” She calls me “Mister G.”
She said, “Mister G, that’s how I wake up every morning.”
“What do you mean that’s how you wake up every morning?”
She said, “I wake up every morning like that.”
I said, “What was that?”
She said, “Well, they’re choking me.”
I said, “Who’s choking you?”
And her answer was one word: “enablers.” Not Nassar.
In Tiffany’s case, what happened on one Thursday was especially telling when she played softball at Michigan State. She went to the female trainer of the women’s softball team. But instead of telling her what Larry Nassar had been doing, she demonstrated it—she did to the trainer what Nassar had done to her.
The trainer’s reaction was, “Oh my God. Oh my God. This is bad.” Well—yes, it wasn’t good. The trainer told her, “You need to talk to the head female trainer for all women’s sports at Michigan State.”
So she did—all by herself, without the first trainer’s accompaniment. And that’s what enablers do. The head trainer and the coach then conspired and manipulated the situation to frame Tiffany in a way that led to her removal from the team. She left school the very next day and never returned to college.
That choking incident I described earlier happened roughly five years ago. It was twenty years after what happened at Michigan State. And yet, she was still waking up every morning with that choking sensation.
When she reverse-engineered it—and we’ve spent much time together—she had what you might call an “Oh shit”moment. She realized Nassar wasn’t just the predator—he was protected. She had gone to that trainer and demonstrated, on her own body, precisely what he had done. But instead of saying, “We need to protect Tiffany,” the trainer passed her off to someone who ultimately had her removed from the team.
That is what enablers do. And for that, they must be held accountable.
Jacobsen: My impression—based on what you’re saying—is that people who have been abused in this way are often in a kind of suspended state. It is not static but almost disassociated, and that dissociation can reemerge at seemingly random moments in the day or throughout the year. To me, the choking phenomenon you described feels like a reenactment.
Guiora: I don’t know—I’m not a psychologist. My late father was a psychologist, so it’s too late to ask him. But I leave that to those who specialize in it. At my age, I know what I don’t know.
What I do know—and what I’ve learned from Tiffany and other survivors—is that the harm caused by enablers is real. That motivates all of my work. It’s the foundation of the Bystander Initiative. It’s also what drives my research on the Holocaust and my other projects: making the case to the public that this is real, actionable harm for which people must be held accountable.
Jacobsen: Are there any legal models in place that address this?
Guiora: I’ve testified in the Netherlands, Australia, and the United States. In the Netherlands, the process is different. First, they pass the bill, and then they draft the law. So, yes—a law was passed that criminalized the role of the enabler. But unfortunately, the government fell shortly afterward. And politics being politics—much like in Canada this week—it is unclear whether the current Dutch parliament will reenact that law anytime soon.
That was the closest we came, however.
Jacobsen: When assigning punishment—considering both the direct perpetrator and the enabler as culpable—how would you approach the balance? What kind of ratio or weight would you assign?
Guiora: In Utah, where a bill criminalizing enablers was introduced, we did not have success. If I recall correctly, it would have created a Class D misdemeanour—punishable by up to six months in jail and/or a $1,500 fine. The proposed bystander legislation used the same classification: Class D misdemeanour, six months, and/or $1,500.
I’ve given hundreds of talks over the years, and at one of them—though I cannot recall exactly where—a young person, younger than you even, asked me a thoughtful question:
“If you’re an enabler to a serious crime, shouldn’t you receive a greater punishment than an enabler to a less serious crime? Shouldn’t there be a differentiation based on the severity of the offence?”
I shared that question with Representative King in Utah. Ultimately, the decision was made not to differentiate between levels of severity. Under the bill, all enabler offences would be treated equally, regardless of the nature or magnitude of the underlying crime or harm to the victim.
But it’s a compelling point. I thought, “That kid’s going to be a future law student.”
Jacobsen: Can silence—or failure to report—be ethically distinguished in court from a cover-up?
Guiora: That’s a critical question. The title of one of my books is either Complicity of Silence or The Silence of Complicity—I can never remember which, and I apologize for that.
But my position is clear: If your silence enables harm, you must be held accountable as someone actively participating. However, you protected the perpetrator—whether through omission or commission—and helped them. That should not require legal or moral differentiation.
Let me add this: I occasionally read criticisms of my work online. It’s essential to engage with dissent. Someone once wrote that I am “victim-centric.” They meant it as a critique, but I took it as a compliment.
Jacobsen: Are there survivors who defend or excuse enablers? And do enablers themselves offer any other justification beyond “I was just doing my job” or “I was following orders”?
Guiora: No. Sometimes, there are different dynamics, and I have studied a few other cases. But generally, in most of my interactions, survivors—when they do the reverse engineering—realize that, if not for the enabler, the perpetrator could not have acted.
Just the other day, a woman contacted me. I asked her to create a scorecard categorizing enablers, bystanders, and perpetrators. She told me the list of critical enablers in her case was incredibly long.
As for what enablers say, especially during trials: yes, you hear excuses like, “I was just following orders,” or “I was a cog in the wheel.”
Unfortunately, that echoes Hannah Arendt’s treatment of Adolf Eichmann in Eichmann in Jerusalem, where she referred to the “banality of evil.” Interpretation gave him a free pass. That was a terrible, unforgivable mistake.
That defence—you were doing your job—does not hold water. It may be used, yes, but it should not be tolerated.
Especially in the era of mandatory reporting, saying “I didn’t understand,” “I didn’t realize,” or “I was just doing my job”is entirely insufficient. Your obligation is to the vulnerable individual.
So, to return to your earlier question, we must hold enablers accountable, both legally and morally.
Again, for me, all roads lead through the Holocaust. That line—”I was just following orders”—must never be tolerated, especially given the harm it ultimately enables. You are right to call it out.
Jacobsen: Do survivors feel more emotionally harmed by the abuser, the enabler, or those who ignored them?
Guiora: Yes. By the second group—those who ignored them. One survivor I interviewed at length, Maddie Larson, was sexually violated by Larry Nassar 750 times. You can watch her victim impact statement on YouTube. During her testimony, she looked Nassar in the eye and said, “Do you know how much I fucking hate you?”
And that makes perfect sense. The judge allowed the survivors to speak however they needed to. But from that moment on, Maddie’s focus shifted not to Nassar but to the enablers.
I completely understand that. Jamie Dantzscher, an Olympic bronze medalist, also gave a powerful statement. When Nassar began what sounded like an apology, she responded, “How dare you fucking apologize to me?” Then, she moved beyond him and turned her focus to the broader ecosystem of abuse.
I applaud them for speaking their truth. That is not easy.
For context, the last time anyone touched me was in seventh grade—during floor hockey. I have been fortunate never to experience that kind of harm.
Jacobsen: The last time someone laid a hand on me seriously was during a Melchizedek priesthood ceremony in the Church of Jesus Christ of Latter-Day Saints—but I’m joking, of course.
Religion still commands respect in most societies—even in North America, where religious authority is declining. There’s still legal deference. Financially, too—tax-exempt status, access to grants, and benefits unavailable per capita to secular or humanist institutions. Groups like The Satanic Temple, with their protest-oriented messaging—as in the documentary Hail Satan?—highlight those double standards.
So, if we shift our focus away from individual clergy or laity and look instead at institutional structures, do religious institutions have a special legal or cultural protection compared to institutions like USA Gymnastics or Hollywood?
Guiora: Yes—and no. Regarding cultural deference, religious institutions often enjoy a shield of legitimacy, even privilege. But from the survivor’s perspective—from those harmed—I have not seen a difference in the magnitude of trauma based on the type of institution.
Whether the abuse occurred in a church, a school, or a sports environment, the psychological damage is profound. The harm itself is the overwhelming constant. I have not observed that survivors measure their suffering based on whether it came from a religious figure, a coach, or a teacher.
Jacobsen: There have been various atheist movements over the years—New Atheism, for example, with Hitchens, Dawkins, Harris, and Dennett; then more militant, online-based versions; and finally, Firebrand Atheism, which was more confrontational. Some of those groups weaponized institutional abuse scandals to attack religion as a whole.
But that seems like an overreach. It is a broad brushstroke—unfair and unhelpful here—especially given that many members of the clergy and laity alike genuinely want reform and accountability.
Guiora: I agree.
Jacobsen: Painting all religious institutions or individuals with the same brush is unfair and counterproductive. Many spiritual leaders have been at the forefront of reform efforts. The conversation must focus on accountability and systemic change, not a blanket condemnation.
In most faith-based institutions, the laity typically does not possess the same formal education or institutional authority as the clergy. That imbalance often creates power dynamics that can be exploited, and sweeping condemnations of all religious participants can be both inappropriate and unhelpful.
So, on a more constructive note, what is helpful? How do we move from identifying the flaws to working with communities and institutions for reform, accountability, and justice at the relevant levels—especially concerning these crimes?
Guiora: I do not know if you follow sports, but very often, when misconduct is brought to a coach’s attention, the response is: “We’ll take care of it internally.” I’ve heard that line a lot. “It’s a team problem. We’ll handle it.”
But that is a huge red flag.
That language—whether intentional or not—protects the institution. It ensures the problem stays quiet and ultimately enhances the vulnerability of the individual victim.
There is one case I know of involving a major American university’s football team. Some players were engaging in serious misconduct, and one player came forward, calling out what he described as a rape culture. Instead of being supported, the coach gathered the entire team and publicly singled out the whistleblower.
The results were predictable. The player who spoke out was socially shunned, marked with a giant X. As you gestured, it was the code of silence—everyone becoming a “gangster rapper,” as you said, embracing silence as loyalty.
That is a textbook case of complicity of silence or silence of complicity. The fact that the coach led that meeting and shamed the player who dared to speak up—is, to put it politely, damning beyond damning.
Jacobsen: What about external communities? How should they respond? Or do people outside these institutions usually take a “not my backyard” approach—NIMBY?
Guiora: Exactly. That’s the attitude many take—unless it is in the headlines or unless it involves a high-profile team or organization. Otherwise, most people look the other way.
But again, I am not an anthropologist, psychologist, or sociologist. I’m just a modest law professor. It comes down to one thing: criminalizing the actions of the enabler.
I genuinely believe this: until we do that, nothing will change. The perpetrator knows they are protected. And when they know they are protected, they have no reason to change. They feel untouchable. Larry Nassar was untouchable—until he wasn’t.
Jacobsen: Let me offer a legal framing. If we assume that laws and policies shape the institutional “ecosystem,” is there an even higher-order source—something upstream from law and policy that informs the entire system? For example, the philosophical argument: What comes first—the law or the moral code of a society?
Guiora: That’s a great question, but I leave it to others. I’m not a philosopher.
I’m efficient. The straightforward way to stop this is to criminalize the enablers’ conduct and hold them accountable. I respect the larger moral and philosophical questions and understand their importance, but they’re outside my purview. What I know is this: real accountability, codified in law, is what stops the cycle of abuse.
Jacobsen: Is that an admission that, to a carpenter, everything looks like a nail—and to a lawyer, everything looks like the Code of Hammurabi?
Guiora: [Laughing] That’s the classic line: “If I had a hammer, I’d have a nail—and I’d call it Simon’s son.”
But it’s a fair question: How do you hold people accountable?
Again—not to repeat myself—but while I understand the value of moral and philosophical questions and respect them deeply, my focus is shaped by the lived experiences of people like Tiffany, Maddie, Jamie Dantzscher, and many others. For them, what matters most is this: hold the enablers accountable in a court of law.
That is what grounds my approach. And again, much of my thinking stems from my understanding of the Holocaust.
Jacobsen: There’s a conceptual merger between what these survivors have experienced and how I interpret historical accountability—particularly around the Holocaust. For me, it’s a practical, grounded analysis.
Let us consider two cases. One on the global-historical scale and one more parochial.
After World War II, we developed new legal codes and held the Nuremberg Trials. These served as a preventive mechanism against future atrocities—on the scale of genocide and crimes against humanity.
Meanwhile, at the more local level, corporal punishment—justified through “spare the rod, spoil the child” interpretations—was once widespread. Legal reform and social shifts have challenged that. In both cases, has the law reduced the incidence of harm in the long run?
Guiora: Nuremberg was of supreme importance. It was the first real opportunity for a post-conflict society to demonstrate vigorous justice—and to hold individuals criminally accountable for their roles in war and genocide.
Did Robert Jackson and others envision the long-term, historical impact of the trials? That, I do not know. I do not know enough to say.
But did they recognize the immediate necessity of accountability? Absolutely.
Did the Nuremberg Trials hold the Nazis accountable? Yes.
Was the denazification process—especially in the 1950s and 1960s—flawed? Certainly, but Justice Jackson’s focus was clear: those responsible for the Holocaust and for Nazi crimes must be held accountable. That was the priority.
I don’t know if there was also a broader historical vision. But from a legal perspective, this was one-plus-one-equals-two: you commit the crimes, you are held accountable.
Jacobsen: That makes sense. Now—playing the hypothetical New York politician here for a moment—let us say we imagine a large-scale, long-term educational initiative. One focused not on punishment but on prevention.
Let us say that one U.S. state allocates $10 million toward a multi-year program. Schools dedicate one or two days each year to teaching students how to recognize abuse, identify enabling behaviour, and avoid becoming passive bystanders.
Would that be worthwhile? Could that work?
Guiora: That would be enormously valuable.
Jacobsen: In the Canadian Armed Forces under the Royal Canadian Navy, there are significant efforts towards culture change—similar to efforts underway in Japan, the U.K., Australia, Canada, and other countries—focused on how to address sexual assault in military contexts.
The challenge is that military personnel are technically subject to military and civilian law. So, theoretically, the disincentives should be doubled compared to the civilian population—but the outcomes do not always reflect that.
Let me focus on education—in hierarchical structures like the military or more lateral ones like public education systems. Do you think educational interventions could work in these environments? Are there examples of successful models?
Guiora: I would say that education and engagement—legitimate and unquestionably necessary—have a place. But they should never come instead of accountability.
As someone who served in the military for 20 years—in Israel and the United States—I know firsthand that military law is distinct from civilian law. I served as a JAG officer, so I lived it.
You can lecture, train, educate—I have done that many times. But at the end of the day—and maybe this is my legal background speaking—accountability is essential.
That does not mean education is unimportant. It is. But it is complementary, not a substitute. Training is helpful; it can reinforce values and awareness. However, it is not sufficient to change institutional behaviour.
In criminal law, which I teach, we emphasize deterrence. Punishment is not just about penalizing an individual—it is about sending a message to others.
That is why I believe, without reservation, that if we want to change enabling behaviour, we need to hold enablers accountable—and publicize it. Please put it on the front page of The Globe and Mail, metaphorically speaking. Otherwise, nothing will change.
Jacobsen: A follow-up on deterrence. The real question is not whether it works but how much deterrence works. For example, a 200-year sentence versus a 20-year sentence: beyond a point, the deterrent effect diminishes.
Guiora: Of course. I will leave Old and New Testament discussions to those better versed in scripture. I hang my hat on what I’ve seen proposed in Utah: a Class D misdemeanour—six months in jail and/or a $1,500 fine. That is enough to send a clear message. If we were talking about Methuselah, sure—then maybe we would need different deterrents. But for the average person, this kind of consequence is serious.
Jacobsen: Let’s say you implement that Class D misdemeanour. Add the $1,500 fine, which—especially in Canadian dollars—would be significant. Add six months of jail time. Then, supplement it with educational programs—not as a primary tool, but as a supportive one. That seems solid. What else do you consider helpful? You’re approaching this from a legal deterrence, public education, and engagement standpoint. What complements those efforts?
Guiora: Public exposure. The brighter the light we shine on enablers and the consequences of their actions, the better.
When I speak with people about enablers, it is often the first time they have considered the issue that way. Their reaction is often, “Oh—wow.” That realization is powerful. I can make a modest contribution by working with legislators and engaging with media, podcasters, and people like you.
I have done this in Israel, and more recently, my work has been cited in public demonstrations and on social media. Visibility matters, but it is a constant effort. You are right—there is a critical need to educate. I view that as a modest use of my platform as a law professor. That is what I do with it. So when I get up at 4:00 in the morning and go to bed late at night, this is what I do—day in and day out.
Jacobsen: With all these media interactions, many assumptions are inevitably floating around, but there are also taboos. What topics remain off-limits, even in a subject area already so sensitive? It feels like walking into a media room full of bear traps hidden on the floor and meat behind the walls. Earlier today, someone told me I was addressing issues they didn’t quite call taboo, but they used verboten.
Guiora: Yes, that resonates. I am sixty-eight years old—as of thirty days ago. This is what I do now. This is what I consider my modest contribution.
At my age, you stop caring whether someone gets upset. If, through my efforts—or through the extraordinary work of the 20+ students who have worked with me over the past three years—we can move the needle, even slightly, it has been worthwhile.
As we say in Yiddish, it cannot get better than that. But yes, it isn’t easy. It is hard work. And I am deeply, deeply grateful to the students who have worked on this with me. I raised funds to support them, and I have a dean who is incredibly supportive of this initiative.
It is a process.
Jacobsen: What about the high-profile cases that dominate the headlines—cases that shape public understanding more than anything else—but then, a few years later, the consequences are significantly reduced?
Take Bill Cosby, for instance. In 2023, he was released. That case could be considered Tier One—hugely public and predatory.
Guiora: If I recall correctly—and here I’m speaking cautiously because I don’t want to overstate anything—I did not interact directly with any of the Cosby victims. I believe one may have contacted me, but I am not certain.
I understand that his release came about because of a procedural or technical issue related to due process or a jury-related matter. But I honestly don’t know the details. And at my age, if you don’t know, you say so.
Jacobsen: What about Jeffrey Epstein and Ghislaine Maxwell?
Guiora: Maxwell—was she an enabler? Perhaps both?
Either way, jail is the right place for her. As for Epstein—was it suicide or murder? We could sit here until your hair looks like mine and still not get to the bottom of that. But yes, the Epstein case is classic—a classic example of institutional protection, elite silence, and systemic failure.
Jacobsen: I have a couple of friends in the Mega Society in the United States, and one case that came up in my discussions with them was Keith Raniere—known as “Vanguard” in the NXIVM cult. There’s a documentary about him called The Vow.
It was interesting to watch what unfolded while working on these interviews. Raniere surrounded himself with a group of women who revered him almost worshipfully. One of the inner circles was called DOS—which stood for a Latin phrase meaning “master over slave” or something along those lines.
The women were branded like cattle with his initials near their groins. Many of them had sexual relationships with him. One of them was actress Allison Mack, known from the Superman TV series Smallville. She became one of the central figures in that inner circle.
Jacobsen: I was also going to ask you about that particular case, but we can set it aside. Let’s get more specific. Outside of the national or federal level, are any U.S. states significantly better at effectively punishing enablers or enforcing deterrence? Do enablers in certain jurisdictions know there will be consequences?
Guiora: No. No state has yet criminalized the enabler. This is new ground. We’ll see where it leads. A bill was introduced in Utah, but it did not succeed. I am currently in direct and indirect contact with legislators in four other states, exploring similar legislation. It is a process, and we will see where it goes.
Again, not to repeat myself, but this is what I do. The fact that there is more engagement on this issue—more willingness from legislators or their staff to have the conversation—is encouraging. It does not guarantee success, but it shows progress.
I respect the process. I understand it. Before I went to law school, I worked for two years in the U.S. Congress as a representative from Michigan, so I know how legislation works. Still, because I focus on victims, I believe this is the best use of my time—modest though it may be.
Jacobsen: What are the counterarguments you regularly face when making the case for punitive legislation against enablers?
Guiora: The typical legal objections focus on proving intent and knowledge. That is, distinguishing between a crime of omission and commission. The question is: How do you prove that someone knew? How do you prove they intended to shield the perpetrator?
These are classic prosecutorial challenges. Five main objections are also commonly raised against bystander legislation—although we’ve made some progress in overcoming those. However, the central objection to enabler legislation is always about proof of knowledge and intent.
Take, for example, the case of Jeremy Bell—a young boy who was killed. I wrote a book and an article about that case. The detective who broke it was extraordinary. He entrusted me with 15,000 pages of documents.
My research assistant at the time worked through all of it and developed an appendix with detailed flowcharts. We could demonstrate, step by step, exactly when the enablers knew. That kind of documentation helps overcome the “lack of knowledge” defence.
But make no mistake—15,000 pages is a massive undertaking. Turning that into charts, timelines, and legal diagrams requires time, people, and resources. I am so profoundly grateful to the students who have worked with me. It is a big project, but it is essential.
Jacobsen: Is there a strange feedback loop in which perpetrators might defend their enablers to reduce their culpability—or at least weaken the case’s legitimacy overall?
Guiora: In the sense that the perpetrator might say, “They knew and did nothing”? Yes, that’s possible. But no, I have not personally seen perpetrators trying to defend enablers as a way of downplaying their guilt. That may exist, but it has not come up in the cases I have worked on.
I am not saying it does not happen; I have not seen it personally. So, I am not saying no; I have not heard it. You also rightly noticed that we have used the word enablers in the plural far more than the singular during this conversation.
Jacobsen: That is right. So, apart from a perpetrator protecting an enabler, do enablers protect one another?
Guiora: If Detective Barber—the man who broke the Jeremy Bell case—were here, he would tell you yes—one hundred percent. He would say they are part of the same club. But, to put on my legal hat for a moment—if I cannot prove it, I cannot prove it.
Mr. Barber, who worked on the case for three years and broke it after local law enforcement had covered it up, has said clearly that enablers protect one another. They are part of the same professional or institutional milieu, the same scheme, if you will.
In The Crime of Complicity, I wrote that this was Mr. Barber’s view. While I cannot independently prove it, I included it in the book to reflect his perspective. Readers need to understand that this view is grounded in deep investigative experience.
Jacobsen: When enablers get a whiff of potential punishment, do they ever quit or try to disappear?
Guiora: Yes—but here is the point: no enabler has ever been punished. So yes, you’re right—that instinct to flee or vanish may be real, but we have no legal or judicial structure to test it. That is the core of this entire effort: to change that paradigm.
Jacobsen: If you were to set a realistic timeline—under decent circumstances—how long until such legislation passes in at least one state, county, province, or territory?
Guiora: Where are we now, 2025? I want to think next year.
Jacobsen: If people begin pursuing the broader circle around the perpetrator—those enabling or shielding them—is there a risk that those same enablers will retaliate by attacking the victim or isolating the survivor’s support system?
Guiora: Absolutely. That dynamic is very real.
Let me give you a concrete example. I just finished a book about the enablers of Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu. I do not know how closely you follow current events, but as of now, 59 hostages are being held in Gaza. Of those, 24 are believed to be still alive.
Netanyahu, in my view, has no interest in pursuing a ceasefire or an agreement with Hamas—because doing so would require releasing those hostages. His enablers—those around him—protect him from the political consequences of not securing their release. As a result, they are complicit.
They are enabling the continued captivity of those hostages. From my perspective, they have blood on their hands. That is the central theme of the book. And yes, I am involved in the protest movement. I attend demonstrations regularly. I am active. Have the police harassed me? Yes. Have Netanyahu supporters harassed me? Yes. Have I been named in social media campaigns? Absolutely.
At a recent demonstration in Haifa, one of the speakers even mentioned me by name. But again, I stay focused because the priority is the hostages. Your question is timely. When you go after enablers, especially those who protect influential individuals, there is always a risk of backlash. But that does not change the need to hold them accountable. In Israel, I am calling for legislation that would criminally prosecute those enablers—just as I am doing in the United States.
For me, there is a direct and unmistakable link between the Holocaust, the hostages, and the enablers. One hundred percent. That connection is central to my work. And part of that is this project—criminalizing enablers—whether in one of the three core paradigms we’ve discussed (faith, sport, education) or now, even more urgently, in national and political contexts like Israel. I am serious about this. I start my day at 3:30 or 4:00 a.m. This is what I do. It is an all-hands-on-deckeffort.
Jacobsen: Where does the media miss the boat?
Guiora: I would not say the media ‘misses the boat.’ I think the attention has historically focused on the perpetrator, and I understand why. That is what makes headlines. However, I am grateful that there is growing interest in the role of enablers.
I was recently featured on a podcast in Israel—actually, two: one major show in February or March and another just last week. I’m interviewed regularly here as well. I understand this is a process. I respect that.
Rome wasn’t built in a day. Mao had his long march. Gandhi had his. I get it. That’s why we created the Bystander Initiative. I’ve tapped into donors and raised money for this work. The media is part of that process. I do not know if “teaching” the press is correct, but I believe in engaging and working with them.
And I enjoy it. In addition to writing my articles and books, I genuinely enjoy talking to the media. It matters. Whether people agree with me or not is less important at my age. The point is to be heard, make the argument, and push the conversation forward.
Jacobsen: A typical dynamic in these systems is “power over”—where someone in a position of authority abuses someone of lesser power. Think of coach to gymnast, priest to parishioner, rabbi to follower, etc. But are there situations where that dynamic is reversed—where the subordinate has control or influence, but the relationship still appears legitimate?
Guiora: Yes, absolutely, I understand what you’re asking.
In the cases I have worked on, survivors were often directed to people like Larry Nassar. They were told to go to him. Sometimes, they even wanted to go to him because he was loved. That’s an important point to remember. Larry Nassar was trusted and beloved by many.
Take Dr. Robert Anderson at the University of Michigan. He sexually assaulted somewhere between 5,000 to 6,000 student-athletes. If you were a football player at Michigan, you had to go through Anderson. There was no choice. You weren’t invited—you were instructed.
The same goes for Dr. Richard Strauss at Ohio State. You had to go through Strauss to wrestle or swim competitively. That’s just how it was. Was there a power dynamic? Yes. And even among the football players, there was an expression among the football players at the University of Michigan. There was a saying: “If you’re in the tub, you’re not in the club.”
It meant that if you were in physical therapy, you were off the field—and everyone wanted to be on the field. These were guys who dreamed of going to the NFL. But to play on Saturday, you had to be cleared as healthy. And to be removed, you had to see Dr. Anderson. And if Anderson touched you inappropriately—grabbed you this way or that way—that was just the cost. It wasn’t perfect. Larry Nassar? Maddie Larson said he sexually violated her 750 times. That is not a typo. That is reality.
Jacobsen: I worked at a horse farm for 27 months as part of another project. Seven days a week—shovelling horse manure, scrubbing stall fronts, filling water buckets, breaking ice in the Canadian winter, feeding hay—Timothy, alfalfa, or local hay, depending on each horse’s digestion. Driving tractors, landscaping, gardening. It was a great experience. I interviewed many people—up to and including two members of Team Canada in show jumping.
Out of that came a book project involving extended conversations with equestrians. One relevant thing I learned is that the show-jumping community implemented a program called SafeSport.
Guiora: Yes, absolutely—SafeSport.
Jacobsen: Is SafeSport effective?
Guiora: I have interacted with SafeSport. Anything that pushes this issue out into the public sphere is essential. Effectiveness can be measured in different ways—short-term and long-term, by who is impacted and who is not. But I want to give a shout-out to SafeSport for elevating the conversation.
They deserve credit. They’ve had me participate in some of their sessions or internal engagements—I do not recall all the specifics—but I’ve been involved. This work is essential.
Jacobsen: Could similar programs be applied outside of sports—perhaps in education, faith settings, or elsewhere—as complementary measures?
Guiora: As part of a broader public awareness effort? Absolutely. But not as a replacement for legislation. That is the key. Programs like SafeSport are complementary, not substitutes. SafeSport is an excellent example of a helpful model, but it cannot stand alone. It must be accompanied by legal mechanisms that hold people accountable.
Jacobsen: Let’s go back to legislation. Hypothetically, what would be an example of going too far? In other words, what kind of law would be inappropriately punitive to these crimes?
Guiora: Great question. I believe the line would be crossed if a prosecutor—using discretion—brought charges against someone who did not know.
That would be casting the net too broadly. It would not be, and the courts would view that with disfavour. It would also risk negative, unintended consequences—like chilling legitimate professional behaviour or overburdening the justice system.
We must be precise. Look at the article we published on the Jeremy Bell case—we carefully delineated exactly who knew what and when. That specificity matters.
Jacobsen: Would such prosecutorial overreach happen often—or would it be rare?
Guiora: It is scarce. And again, that is where prosecutorial discretion becomes critical.
The prosecutor ultimately decides once legislation exists and a case is brought forward. I completely respect that role. It is essential.
Guiora: I was a prosecutor in a former life. So I’ll tell you this: if you have the legislation, and if I, as a prosecutor, can show knowledge, intent, mens rea—all of it—then there’s no reason not to go forward with prosecution.
But go back to what I told you earlier. In X years, you’ll have this conversation with someone else, and nothing will have changed.
And in the meantime, there will be countless additional victims—entirely preventable. That’s why I’ve been accused of being “victim-centric.” I can live with that.
Here’s how I see it: I am the only child of two Holocaust survivors. And now that I know what I know—if I weren’t doing this, I would be nothing more than a bystander. An enabler. And that’s not going to work. That does not sit right with me.
This is not about me. But I also can not be involved. Every time someone reaches out to me—and it happens a lot—they get my full, undivided attention. That’s the reason.
Jacobsen: It may not be about you, but every aperture has a narrative source. Let me ask: where is prosecutorial discretion typically the most difficult to parse?
Guiora: Knowledge. Without question. And prosecutors—look, I get it. I’ve been one. The decision involves more than just the facts. It’s about time, resources, and cost-benefit analysis. Can you win the case?
I’ve met with prosecutors and spoken with them at length and understand their thinking. I used to think that way myself. But again, it comes down to whether you can establish knowledge and intent. The Bell case is a classic example. But that kind of framework can also be built in other cases—just as rigorously.
Jacobsen: “Armies of Enablers”—tell me about the title.
Guiora: Lindsey Lemke, the women’s gymnastics team captain at Michigan State University, coined the term “armies.” I kept using the word “army”—singular—and she got frustrated. She said, “Jesus, it’s armies. How fucking stupid are you?”
And she was right. Everywhere she turned, someone was protecting Nassar. Everyone fell in line with the coach, trainer, administrator—tuck, tuck. That’s how I came to view it: the book’s title, Armies of Enablers, honours Lindsey. From the victims’ perspective, it was never one person. It was always plural. Always an army.
Jacobsen: For prosecutors, that’s a high bar.
Guiora: Sure, and I get that. However, my focus remains squarely on the present victim and preventing future victims. And just so it’s clear—though I know I’ve said this fourteen times—the Holocaust plays a foundational role in my understanding of all this. I know what happens when society chooses not to act.
Jacobsen: People engaged in this work often face an emotional and moral toll. Does that happen to you?
Guiora: No. Honestly, no. I feel fortunate to be involved in this work. I don’t experience it as a toll. When I’m done for the day, I will watch the NBA and have dinner. That’s it.
Jacobsen: [Laughing] That’s good. Let’s do that. Final question—do you have a favourite quote?
Guiora: It isn’t very easy. My favourite quote is a play on a quote from a complicated person. But for this conversation?
All hands on deck. There you have it.
Jacobsen: There you go. Thanks for joining me.
Guiora: Thank you for having me. That was fun.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/11
History as a bridge-builder with a centrist social-justice activism and doctrinal conservatism. He has an Augustinian communitarian ethos. His platforms: synodality, Christocentric evangelization over abstraction, and inclusion, with traditionalism on life, marriage, and ordained ministry. He uses pastoral anti-clericalism against isolationist leadership, while advocating interreligious dialogue and big tent-ism focused on humanitarianism over culture wars. He champions broad participation with secular‑religious cooperation and compassionate outreach. The Test: Translation of ideals into transparent, effective governance with accountability following from rhetorical closeness.
2012
“Sympathy for beliefs and practices that are at odds with the gospel,” e.g., “[the] homosexual lifestyle” and “alternative families comprised of same-sex partners and their adopted children.”
2019
“We reject cover-up and secrecy, it does a lot of harm, because we have to help the people who have suffered from wrongdoing.”
2019
“I think they should do it, if there is abuse against a minor by a priest… On behalf of the Church, we want to tell people that if there was any offense, if they suffered or are victims of a priest’s wrongdoing, they should come and report it, to act for the good of the Church, the person, and the community.”
~2015–2023
“The promotion of gender ideology is confusing, because it seeks to create genders that don’t exist.”
2023
“We are often worried about teaching doctrine, but we risk forgetting that our first duty is to communicate the beauty and joy of knowing Jesus.”
2023
“A fundamental element of the portrait of a bishop is being a pastor, capable of being close to the members of the community.”
2023
“Silence is not an answer. Silence is not the solution. We must be transparent and honest, we must accompany and assist the victims, because otherwise their wounds will never heal.”
2023
“The fundamental thing for every disciple of Christ is humility.”
2023
“Being a synodal Church that knows how to listen to everyone is the way not only to live the faith personally, but also to grow in true Christian brotherhood.”
2023
“Above all, a bishop must proclaim Jesus Christ and live the faith so that the faithful see in his witness an incentive to them to want to be an ever more active part of the Church that Jesus Christ himself founded.”
2023
“Something that needs to be said also is that ordaining women — and there’s been some women that have said this interestingly enough — ‘clericalizing women’ doesn’t necessarily solve a problem, it might make a new problem.”
2024
“The bishop is not supposed to be a little prince sitting in his kingdom.”
2024
“Called authentically to be humble, to be close to the people he serves, to walk with them, to suffer with them.”
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/10
Robert Felder, CEO of Bearbottom, outlined the short-term challenges of tariff uncertainty, including disrupted supply chains and rising costs, especially for goods sourced from China. To adapt, Bearbottom is shifting production to India and increasing inventory. Felder noted the continued dominance of Chinese fabric supply, despite relocating final manufacturing. He predicts higher prices and changing consumer expectations, particularly with the end of de minimis imports. Felder believes stable policy is crucial for encouraging U.S.-based production. Overall, tariffs are forcing strategic shifts in sourcing, pricing, and investment, with limited relief currently available to businesses.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: How have the new tariffs affected supply chains and pricing strategies in the short term?
Robert Felder: In the short term, there has been a lot of uncertainty for businesses. Businesses are unable to confidently forecast demand and are also struggling with what to do with their supply chains, as tariffs and their impacts are so rapidly changing. In the short term, it seems that some brands will be raising prices based on the available information and potential policy. A lot of companies are, however, waiting as long as possible, hoping for a clearer path of what will happen so they can make a more long-term strategy. For products from China, there is basically no choice but to raise prices in the short term, though.
Jacobsen: How are you managing inventory planning and forecasting potential shortages?
Felder: We are pushing to increase inventory levels as we source primarily from India. Products that in the past have come from China, we are planning to move the production to India. Our mindset is to take advantage of the known and not get in trouble facing the unknown. We know the product costs we will face now, so we are going to take advantage of the situation while we can.
Jacobsen: What realistic alternatives to Chinese manufacturing exist in the near term?
Felder: In the near term, the most realistic alternative for Chinese manufacturing in apparel is other Asian countries. The fabric supply chain from China is so specialized and dominant that the best thing to do currently is to ship fabric from China to other countries for production. The manufacturing base for the specialized fabrics doesn’t exist in most of these countries, so in the near term, that is the best solution to avoid product disruptions.
Jacobsen: From an e-commerce perspective, how might tariffs reshape consumer expectations around pricing and delivery?
Felder: Goods that were shipped directly from China under the de minimis policy, which allowed for orders under $800 to be imported duty-free, have ended. This will cause an immediate increase in price for products from companies like Shein and Temu. I think in the medium to long term, this is a good thing for our market. It prevents foreign companies from avoiding taxes that US-based companies have to pay. Higher prices in the short term will hurt customers. Hopefully, a positive aspect of this will be that there will be more demand for higher quality goods and less need for fast fashion and the high consumption attitude these cheap goods have created.
Jacobsen: What would be a practical and sustainable path to domestic production for the US?
Felder: High-value goods would be the first type of product to be domestically produced in the US. Investors will invest in things that create the highest return. The capital required for a manufacturing facility is extremely high and investors will demand a return on that investment. If there is a stable policy in place ,it will give investors more confidence to make that investment. With the current uncertainty, very few people or businesses will be incentivized to make these large, long-term investments because there is little confidence that the policy won’t change making the investment a poor decision.
Jacobsen: How are the tariffs influencing decisions in the retail and apparel sectors?
Felder: Tariffs are impacting where companies are planning and sourcing their goods from. Apparel is such a price-sensitive industry and companies will be forced to move production based on tariffs impacts on cost.
Jacobsen: How are policymakers or industry groups effectuating changes or relief measures?
Felder: There has been little to no relief for companies. The 90-day pause gave companies some time to plan and adjust but the uncertainty of what is going to happen in the future is making it difficult for definitive decisions to be made.
Jacobsen: Are the tariffs in retail and fashion going to be here for the short term or the long term?
Felder: It seems like the Trump administration is signaling tariffs will be here for the long term but they claim to be open to negotiated trade deals. Their objective isn’t clear on what they want out of these deals but there is hope that the tariffs will be lowered. It does seem that we will be at a higher level than prior to the tariff increase but it might be less impactful than what has been discussed over the past month.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Robert.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/10
Doug Williams and Melvin Williams are iconic gospel musicians from the legendary Williams family. They reflect on the enduring legacy of their late brother Huey Williams, lead singer of the Jackson Southernaires, and their father Leon “Pop” Williams, a strict but visionary manager and booking agent. The Williams Brothers’ music journey began humbly in Smithdale, Mississippi, evolving into six decades of faith-driven performances worldwide, including appearances at the White House and collaborations with legends like Stevie Wonder and Aretha Franklin. Emphasizing authenticity, spiritual purpose, and family unity, Doug and Melvin discuss the feel and power of gospel music, their deep roots in traditional sound, and balancing cultural preservation with modern relevance. They highlight the transformative nature of gospel music and its power to uplift in troubled times. Their message: stay true to your gift, honour your legacy, and use music to heal and inspire others.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we’re here with Doug Williams and Melvin Williams of the famed Huey Williams, Paul Williams, Doug Williams, and Melvin Williams family.
Leon “Pop” Williams was the founding patriarch of the Williams gospel music legacy. A farmer, bricklayer, and visionary gospel manager from Smithdale, Mississippi, he formed and managed several groups, including The Big Four Gospel Singers and the Southern Gospel Singers, laying the foundation for what would become the Jackson Southernaires and the Williams Brothers. Known for his disciplined leadership, keen musical sensibility, and unwavering commitment to spiritual authenticity, Leon was instrumental in discovering, mentoring, and managing his children’s musical careers. He booked legendary gospel acts across Mississippi and the broader South and maintained the family’s touring and recording schedules through handwritten ledgers, long before digital systems existed. His influence shaped not only the Williams family but also the trajectory of traditional gospel music. Leon “Pop” Williams is now recognized as a pivotal figure in gospel history and is memorialized through exhibits in the Mississippi Grammy Museum.
Frank Williams was a founding member of the Jackson Southernaires and a key figure in shaping modern gospel music alongside his brothers. Known for his distinctive voice and musical leadership, Frank was instrumental in bridging traditional quartet styles with contemporary gospel sounds. He co-founded the Mississippi Mass Choir in 1988, one of the most influential gospel choirs in the United States. Until his passing in 1993, Frank remained a spiritual and creative force, helping to guide the next generation of gospel musicians while honoring the deep-rooted traditions of Southern gospel.
Huey Williams was the legendary lead vocalist of the Jackson Southernaires, a gospel quartet that played a key role in shaping traditional gospel music for over five decades. Known for his powerful voice, heartfelt delivery, and unwavering faith, Huey became a pillar of the genre. His dedication and influence extended across generations of gospel musicians until his passing in 2025. Under his leadership, the Jackson Southerners rose to national prominence. His legacy is now carried forward musically by his son, Paul Williams.
Doug Williams is a seasoned gospel singer, songwriter, and music executive, best known as a member of the legendary Williams Brothers. He is also the founder of DLW Music Group and a former president of Blackberry Records. Doug has been instrumental in evolving gospel music for contemporary audiences while staying true to its spiritual core. In 2023, he released an album inspired by deep spiritual reflection during the pandemic. His work continues to inspire through both music and mentorship.
Melvin Williams, a Grammy-nominated gospel vocalist and co-founder of the Williams Brothers, is celebrated for his rich baritone voice and deeply moving performances. A tireless ambassador for gospel music, Melvin has dedicated his life to preserving and promoting traditional gospel. He has performed internationally and, in 2024, released a single titled “What Are You Thankful For?” Melvin remains vital in gospel music and faith communities through touring, recording, and ministry outreach.
Paul Williams is a gospel singer rooted in the traditions of the Jackson Southernaires. Paul has embraced his family’s legacy with dedication, continuing to sing and serve as a bearer of the Southernaires’ message. He honours his father’s legacy through music and forges his voice within the gospel tradition.
Thank you, Doug and Melvin, for joining me today. I appreciate it—whether you’re mowing the lawn or just relaxing.
Doug Williams: Thanks for having us.
Melvin Williams: Thank you for inviting us.
Jacobsen: So, the big question, coming from such a rich lineage of gospel music and ministry: What does a legacy spanning decades—as a family, working in the community, and being ambassadors for gospel music—mean to you?
Doug Williams: It means an awful lot because this legacy started before we were born. My father, Leon “Pop” Williams, was a gospel singer. The late Leon “Pop” Williams had a group called The Big Four Gospel Singers, even before Melvin and I were born.
Then, he formed another group called the Southern Gospel Singers, including my brothers Frank Williams and Huey Williams, my sisters Josie and Marie Ortiz, and two of my cousins, M.A. Spell and Herbert Bell. So, after that, it evolved. And of course—of course—Huey was there. He was part of the Southern Gospel Singers. Then, the Williams Brothers got started.
It was funny how we got started. Melvin and I were the younger kids in the Williams family, along with our brother Leonard and our sister Marilyn. We were out in the front yard one day, just playing, singing, and making up songs, and we came up with this little song called “Hobbit, Dibi, Dovi, Dae.”
To this day, I have no idea what that means, but we started singing “Hobbit, Dibi, Dovi, Dae,” and we began harmonizing right there in the front yard. Then my father walked out on the front porch, heard us singing, and thought we sounded good. So he asked us to come inside and sing some more—and that’s how the Williams Brothers group started.
So it’s a family tradition. We’ve been doing this for over sixty years. The Williams Brothers have been performing for over six decades. We started in the country. We’re from a very small place—Smithdale, Mississippi—where we raised cotton and had cows, chickens, hogs—you name it, we had it. We raised everything we ate right there on the farm. We had a big, big farm. My dad was a farmer and a bricklayer, among other things.
Thinking about the journey—from starting in Smithdale to performing at the White House for President Obama—it’s incredible. As young boys, we never dreamed something like that could happen. But God saw fit to allow us to do something meaningful, to the point where we could perform for the President of the United States. It’s amazing. This means an awful lot because it’s a legacy we want to continue.
Melvin Williams: That legacy and that journey with the Williams Brothers would not have happened without the Jackson Southernaires, Huey Williams and my brother Frank Williams. Once my dad thought we were good enough to record, he contacted my brothers based in Houston, Texas, who were on Peacock/Song Bird, the big label back then.
It had artists like B.B. King, Bobby Bland, Johnny Taylor, the Mighty Clouds of Joy, the legendary Pilgrim Jubilees, the Nightingales—the list goes on. So the Jackson Southernaires went to the President and owner of the label and said, “We’ve got some little brothers, man. They’re really good. You might want to give them a listen.” And he said, “If you think they’re good, bring them on. Tell them to come in, and we’ll put them in the studio and see what they’ve got.”
And so we did. We recorded our first record in 1973, which came out in 1974. And the rest is history. We were just happy to be there and to record.
We knew nothing about contracts, money, publishing, or songwriting rights—none of that. But we could write, we could sing a little bit, and we could play a little bit. We got this big contract from Sunbird/Peacock Records, and basically, what we received for that first record was… well, we went across the street and got cheeseburgers, French fries, hot dogs.
Doug Williams: That was our pay. That was it.
Melvin Williams: But the crazy thing about that first record is that, at the time, Jet Magazine was still publishing gospel music charts—and we reached the Top 10. We thought we were on top of the world, man. And we didn’t even know what that meant in the grand scheme of the gospel music world or industry. But we soon found out.
From that, our brothers—Huey and Frank—took us on the road. Yes, Huey and Frank. That was our first tour. I do not remember who organized the second one, but we did a round with them and the Pilgrim Jubilees at one point. And from there, it just grew. We later toured with the Gospel Keynotes and many others.
So that’s the journey. That’s how we came to be known as the Williams Brothers—through Huey Williams, the Jackson Southernaires, and our brother Frank Williams. The legacy he left behind is untouchable, unmatched, and unimaginable. He was one of a kind—a one-of-a-kind lead singer, a one-of-a-kind voice.
When his vocals came on the radio, you knew it was Huey Williams. When it was Frank Williams, their voices were unique, distinct, and authentic. We were blessed to follow in the footsteps of such a legendary group as the Jackson Southernaires.
Jacobsen: As a small side question, what changed in the industry caused Jet Magazine to no longer list gospel charts?
Doug Williams: The format of the entire magazine changed. They stopped putting charts in the magazine altogether. They used to feature gospel, R&B, and jazz charts. But they do not even list any charts anymore.
Melvin Williams: Yes, Jet had three main charts at that time—gospel, R&B, and jazz. They did not have a dedicated blues chart because back then, they folded blues artists like Johnny Taylor and B.B. King into the R&B category.
Doug Williams: R&B and blues—yes.
Melvin Williams: So from there, we flourished as the Williams Brothers, man.
Jacobsen: What do you consider some of your most cherished memories of working with your father, either on or off the road?
Doug Williams: My father, Leon “Pop” Williams, was our manager. He organized the group. He managed us. He travelled with us. And let me tell you—he was strict. My dad was very strict. He did not play around when it came to doing what he expected you to do.
Jacobsen: As the saying goes—”You’re gonna learn today.”
Melvin Williams: Yes [Laughing].
Doug Williams: [Laughing]. People say Joe Jackson was tough on Michael Jackson and the Jackson Five, but our dad was tough on us. Maybe not quite as tough as Joe, but still very firm.
We had this little place he built outside his home for us to rehearse. We called it the “music house.” It’s still standing today. It didn’t have air conditioning—none. There was very little heat in the winter and no air conditioning in the summer. So, in the summertime, we’d raise the windows, put fans in them, and deal with the heat while we rehearsed. We would rehearse for hours and hours, day and night.
My dad would come and stand in the doorway and listen. Even as young kids, we did most of the writing and arranging ourselves. God had given us that talent. But if my daddy heard something he didn’t like, he would tell us right then and there: “Look, I can’t feel that.” For him, it was all about feeling. He didn’t want anything to do with the song if he could feel the song.
He’d say, “Y’all take that one back where it came from. Come back with something else.” So we had to go back and develop something he could feel was good. He was very strict with us, and he laid down the foundation. He laid down the rules—and he was strict about those rules. We had to abide by what he wanted us to do. That helped shape us into the men we are today.
For years, he was our manager, our booking manager, and the overall manager of the Williams Brothers until he eventually retired.
Melvin Williams: A few years ago, when they were building the Grammy Museum, Mississippi, we were looking for artifacts—photos, articles, uniforms, and other items—to go in the exhibit. I found my dad’s old address book and notebooks, where he had been booking concerts and programs. It had people’s names and phone numbers written down. I still have it somewhere down here, even though they didn’t use that part for the Grammy Museum.
But they did use a poster of him booking gospel groups—he booked nearly every major group you can think of right here in McComb, Mississippi, just a few miles from Smithdale, where we were raised. They also used a handwritten version of lyrics I wrote on a yellow pad for the song “I’m Just a Nobody, Trying to Tell Everybody.” Those items are in the museum today. So yes, our father—Leon “Pop” Williams—is now a part of the Mississippi Grammy Museum.
Doug Williams: The amazing thing about my father was that there were no computers back then and no contracts. He didn’t sign contracts with promoters or anything like that, even though he was the booking agent. There were no digital systems, no emails—none of that. Everything was written down by hand in his ledger. Whatever agreement he made with a promoter, he would jot it down in his book. We used to call it his booking book—or his booking ledger. He would write how much the group was booked for, the city, the promoter’s name, their phone number—everything was lined out in that book. That’s how he handled things.
Melvin Williams: Sometimes he would even have the promoter write a letter to confirm the details—how much they would pay us, the date, all of that. He used those letters to back up the dates. But most of the time, like you said, it was word-of-mouth.
Doug Williams: Your agreement was your word. Your word was your bond.
Melvin Williams: Yes—and many folks didn’t keep their word. Pop sometimes struggled to get our money or ensure they honoured their promises when we got to those cities. But that’s how he operated. He was strict about that, too.
He wanted us to sound right, dress right, carry ourselves right in public—the whole nine yards. That’s one of the things I remember most about him. Like I said, he was very strict, man. He was.
Doug Williams: Yes. One funny story to lighten the mood a bit—I remember we were somewhere on the East Coast. I think it was Wilmington, Delaware. We sang in a church, and the microphones weren’t loud enough. The band played loud, and you could barely hear what we were singing.
My father was standing in the back of the church. Right in the middle of the song, he walked up the aisle, stopped the song, and said, “The mics are too low, and the music is too loud.” Then he turned around and walked back to the back of the church.
Melvin Williams: We were so embarrassed. We were numb, like, “What just happened? Did he do that?” Right in front of everybody. You could hear the people whispering, like, “Whoa… what was that?” It was wild.
Doug Williams: It’s funny now—but it wasn’t back then.
Jacobsen: Especially in church. My gosh. Now, you’ve mentioned how your father was very focused on the feel of a song. If it felt wrong, he would send you back to practice it again. He would tell you to do more of that if it felt right.
Doug Williams: That’s it—keep practicing until it feels right. That was the standard.
Jacobsen: So—to the point of your father stopping you in the middle of a church performance or making a correction mid-song.
Melvin Williams: That kind of thing—Pop stepping in to correct in the middle of a performance—came from his background. He grew up listening to legendary gospel groups like the Five Blind Boys of Alabama, the Five Blind Boys of Mississippi, the Sensational Nightingales, and Sam Cooke with the Soul Stirrers, which also had Johnny Taylor in the group for a while. He listened to artists and groups like that, returning to Sister Rosetta Tharpe.
Believe it or not, my father booked Sister Rosetta Tharpe in McComb, Mississippi. He booked nearly every major gospel artist of that era to come through McComb, whether it was the Mighty Clouds of Joy, Willie Banks and the Messengers, the Jackson Southernaires, the Pilgrim Jubilees, Shirley Caesar and the Caesar Singers—the list goes on and on.
What would happen if the word got out: Pop could pack a house. Two or three groups could fill a school auditorium with 1,500 to 2,000 people. McComb, Mississippi, was a great stop between Jackson, Mississippi, and New Orleans so that these gospel artists would call him—or another promoter named Ellis Miller—and book a date in McComb before heading to the major cities. They might sing in McComb on Saturday, perform in New Orleans on Sunday, and maybe go to Baton Rouge afterward.
Pop even booked Sister Edna Gallmon Cooke—and one of my favourites, the Dixie Hummingbirds. That was one of my all-time favourite gospel groups. They went on to record with major national and international artists like Stevie Wonder and Paul Simon. They did “Love Me Like a Rock” and “Jesus Children of America” with Stevie Wonder. The list goes on.
Pop became famous for his booking—more than managing the Williams Brothers. Many people in the area didn’t understand what managing a gospel group involved, but they knew Pop could bring in the biggest artists in gospel music. That was his reputation.
Doug Williams: Yes, man. He was that guy. Quite the guy.
Jacobsen: The other question I had has to do with feel. You’ve talked about how important feeling was to your dad. So, if you had to ask him or reflect on yourselves, what is the feel of proper gospel music? How would you describe that?
Melvin Williams: Doug, would you like to go first?
Doug Williams: You can go ahead.
Melvin Williams: For me—and my dad always said this too—it starts with judging the audience. You can tell when a song is resonating and when people can feel it based on the response you get from the audience. Whether in a church, a school, or an auditorium, you’ll see them stand up, clap their hands, shout, and praise God. And from that, there’s this energy that you send out—and it comes right back to you. It’s the spirit, man.
That’s how you know when something has feelings. That’s how you know when the spirit is moving and whether a song connects with people. If you’re up there singing and nobody’s clapping, they’re just looking around, not responding—you can cut that one short. You know it’s not hitting.
Doug Williams: But also, it’s a feeling that’s hard to explain. Something deep inside—down in your gut—makes the hair stand up on your arms or the back of your neck. You feel a kind of warmth, that rush of energy. It’s hard to explain, but when it feels good, you know it’s right. Yes, that’s the anointing. That’s the Holy Spirit taking over on the inside.
Melvin Williams: The anointing. My mom used to say that when she heard Mahalia Jackson sing, it made the hair stand up on her arms. That’s what gospel music does—it gives you those goosebumps. Man, it’s amazing. And that’s something that still amazes me to this day—I’m always in awe of the power of a song.
A song can speak when preachers cannot. It can get through when a sermon or even a movie can’t. A song can penetrate the heart, the soul, and the mind. It can change things. Think about it—some songs make you cry, songs that make you laugh, songs that make you reflect, and songs that make you change your way of living or thinking. It’s powerful. That’s been the most amazing thing to me. So whenever I write a song, I ask myself—“Will this change somebody’s mind? Will it make someone feel, live, or shift their mindset?” If I can write something that touches someone somehow and get a response, I know my writing is not in vain. I know it came from within.
And another thing—writing and singing, that’s a gift from God. It’s a gift. Many people can sing, but they can’t write. A lot can write, but they can’t sing. Some can play an instrument but not sing. And some can do both. It’s a divine gift.
So it’s a gift, man. And you have to seek God to know your gift. Everybody has a gift—it may not be in music, but God gave everyone a gift. You must seek Him and use that gift to your knowledge and ability.
I tell people all the time—I talk about basketball. Everybody debates MJ, LeBron, Kobe, and all of them. But I look at each one of those players as having a different gift. Each one has a unique gift.
Jacobsen: That brings us to the topic of gifts—that’s a big subject. It can branch off in many directions. One important aspect you mentioned earlier is being able to write, sing, play an instrument–and even overcome stage fright. That’s a huge part of it, too.
Even if your famed father is stopping you mid-song in church—what do those gifts mean to you? What do you attribute them to? You touched on it earlier, but I’d like to hear more. And what about being in a family where siblings and others work together with those integrated gifts?
Doug Williams: Actually, we believe the gift comes from God. God gave us the ability to do what we do. Even as children, we started writing songs and singing—it was a God-given talent, a God-given gift. And we don’t take it lightly or for granted because many people wish they could do what we do.
Many people would love to be able to sing, write, and produce music. So, we truly give God all the honour and praise for the gifts He’s given us.
Of course, there’s some sibling rivalry. That’s part of it. We’ve had that happen along the way. As a family, we don’t always agree, and we don’t always get along the way we probably should. But at the end of the day, we’re still family. We love each other. We’re always going to come back together and make it work.
Doug Williams: Melvin and I have had knock-down, drag-out disagreements. But you have to have that competition, man. You need that.
Melvin Williams: Absolutely. But it’s good competition. It helps sharpen you. It makes you better in the long run. That’s what it’s all about.
Jacobsen: Now, let’s talk about legacy. For example, I’ve worked in the equestrian industry with a family with a long business and equine legacy—one well-known, at least within British Columbia, maybe even across Canada.
So, for yourselves, coming from a rich musical tradition, how do you honour that legacy properly? How do you defend it when it needs defending? How do you integrate it into culture, such as by preserving it in museums or other public-facing ways?
Doug Williams: It goes back to what we said earlier about gifts. When God gives you a gift and blesses you to succeed, you have a responsibility to stand firm—especially with the changes happening in the music, radio, and television industry.
If you’ve been blessed, God has opened doors for that gift, and you’ve seen success, then you’ve got to stand up for it. You must protect the legacy, represent it well, and ensure it continues forward.
Melvin Williams: You have to believe in yourself and your gift. The industry cannot try to change your gift, especially when that gift was given to you by God.
Protecting that gift means staying true to what you’ve been called to do. If your music, songs, or whatever you’re doing in the gospel industry has been effective, you protect it by not changing just because everything else around you changes. That’s how you stay authentic. That’s how your talent and your gift stand out.
If you look at the Jackson Southernaires from the time they started, their style, their music, their writing—the success they had through the years—they didn’t change. They remained the Jackson Southernaires. That’s what Huey did, and that’s what we do.
That’s what makes an artist a true artist. That’s what makes a legacy so powerful in the industry. You don’t need to change when God gives you something unique. You have to be who you are.
Look at artists like Stevie Wonder, Smokey Robinson, and Aretha Franklin—they were always themselves. Their music and voices didn’t try to change to be like someone else. As I said earlier, Huey’s voice was authentic. It was different. You don’t have to try to be anybody else when you have a real gift like that.
And I’ve always put Huey in that category, just as any other iconic artist. You do what you do when you’ve got that kind of gift—authentic vocals, the ability to write.
We stay grounded. We make it do what it does.
Doug Williams: What’s very important to me when it comes to legacy is that, as we continue doing what we’re doing, we’re careful not to do anything that would discredit or embarrass the family legacy. We want to be upstanding. We want to carry ourselves professionally, with integrity and dignity.
We never want to do anything that would tarnish the Williams family or the Jackson Southernaires’ legacy. As we carry on, we’re holding that torch high. We want to ensure we honour everything built over a lifetime and not bring anything negative to it.
Jacobsen: Can you speak to any recent performances, albums, or singles from the Williams Brothers that are particularly noteworthy?
Doug Williams: From the Williams Brothers? Yes, absolutely. We’ve had some great songs God gave us—and they’ve done well.
Melvin wrote a song called “Cooling Water,” which he performed with Lee Williams of the Spiritual QCs. That was a huge song. Then there’s “I’m Just a Nobody,” “Sweep Around Your Front Door,” “I’m Still Here,” and “Living Testimony,” big songs that have powerfully impacted people’s lives over the course of our careers.
And I’m truly grateful and humbled by that. God gave us a talent that can reach people where they are and positively touch their lives—well, that’s everything. Through our music ministry, people have been blessed, healed, set free, and delivered. That’s what it’s really about, man.
Doug Williams: So those are just some of the songs. There are so many more, but those are a few that have been a blessing—to the Williams Brothers and fans worldwide.
Jacobsen: What about the perception of change over time? Some say the only thing that ever changes is the weather. How much has traditional gospel music stayed true to its roots—and how much has it not?
Doug Williams: Mostly, traditional gospel music has stayed in its place and kept to its roots. Sure, there have been artists who’ve tried to redefine or present it differently, and the radio and music industry have tried to label it in different ways, but traditional gospel is still traditional.
You can’t make contemporary music traditional—and you can’t make traditional music into something contemporary. It’s like trying to mix oil and water. It just doesn’t work.
Here’s a good example: if someone sings a song that’s called traditional gospel, but then someone else gets up and sings true traditional gospel music right after them, you’ll hear the difference instantly. It’s like night and day.
So, I think traditional gospel music exists in a category all its own. It’s defined. It hasn’t changed. The industry has tried to shift things—TV shows, charts, and even Billboard—but ultimately, it’s authentic. It’s legendary.
You can’t make Mahalia Jackson’s music into the same thing as, say, a gospel track by Beyoncé or CeCe Winans. It’s just different. Both have their place—but the traditional gospel is the traditional gospel. I’ll always keep that music in its category.
There’s still an audience out there who grew up listening to that kind of music. And I’m one who’s committed to keeping traditional gospel music going, to keeping it alive.
Jacobsen: My sense of the Southern United States—and I say this as a foreigner, as a Canadian—is that the language people speak is unadorned, descriptive, and concrete. You hear words like “tin can,” “brick house,” “wood fireplace.” They’re straightforward and tangible—like in Richard Pryor’s Mudbone sketches, where he’d say, “See, I lived through hard times before, people talkin’ ’bout, ‘These are hard times.’ Hard times were way back. They didn’t even have a year for it; just called it ‘Hard Times.'”
That kind of speech is clear; you can read the words and know exactly what someone means. But when you hear it—when someone says “brick,” “guitar,” or “gospel”—you don’t just understand it; you almost feel it in a sensory way. How would you describe that kind of concrete, heartfelt language layered into gospel themes, performances, and presence—especially in the context of a church or a performance venue?
Doug Williams: You said it—it’s very concrete. The language, the music, the delivery—it’s all very descriptive, and it’s heartfelt. It’s hard to do this—do gospel music—and not be sincere about it.
That sincerity comes through whether you’re on a big stage in a coliseum or arena or standing in a small country church. That authentic feeling always comes across, and your audience can sense it. They feel it. They can feed off the energy, emotion, and truth in it.
It’s country, yes—but it’s also real. And that’s what makes it resonate. It’s something that’s very, very real. There’s nothing fake about it. Nothing phony. It’s not Hollywood. It’s not Showtime at the Apollo or anything like that. It comes from the depths of your soul, and you’re pouring it out with everything you have—just so you can reach the hearts, souls, and minds of the people there, hearing what you’re delivering. That’s what it’s all about.
Jacobsen: Within theology, a major theme is purpose—people discover purpose in their lives and then live it out. So, for yourselves, how do you see your music and your ministry as a way of giving yourselves to others and living with purpose? How does that shape how you see your lives?
Doug Williams: Go ahead, Melvin. I know you’ve got your thoughts.
Melvin Williams: All right. When we were coming up, we were young. We wanted to sing. We wanted to be out there. We looked up to our big brothers—we were following behind them. But somewhere along the way, we realized that God had given us this gift, and with it came a purpose.
From that point on, everything changed. Our perspective shifted. We stopped seeing singing as something to do for attention or applause. We saw it as a ministry. We realized that we weren’t just out there to be entertainers but to change lives through our ministry and music.
So we began seeing what we did as both a ministry and, yes, a business—but the ministry came first. As we travelled, we could see that our songs were touching people. That realization lifted everything to a whole new level—a new dimension. It became more than just performance. It was calling. For me, the moment I truly understood that my gift was from God—that it had a purpose—that changed the entire direction of my career.
Doug Williams: There’s definitely a purpose in it. When people hear our songs—whether on the radio, streaming online, or wherever—and that song touches them meaningfully, they have fulfilled a purpose in their lives.
When we perform in a town, and someone buys a ticket with their hard-earned money to hear us live, they’re not just showing up for fun. They’re coming with a purpose. They’re hoping to receive something—to be uplifted, inspired, or moved spiritually.
And we understand that. So we also come with a purpose—to give them our best. To give them what God has given us. And to share that with sincerity, excellence, and love.
And that’s part of the purpose—to create an atmosphere of hope and uplift the spirits of those feeling down. Many people are going through difficult times. We’re living in a season where there’s just so much going on—politically, socially—there’s much negativity out there.
Melvin Williams: Yes. There’s so much hatred, bigotry, division—people are surrounded by it every day. And what they’re looking for is something positive. Something to lift them spiritually. Something to give them hope.
Doug Williams: Exactly. Gospel music has a way of doing that. That’s the purpose behind it—giving people hope. Giving them something they can hold on to. Letting them know that God is still in charge and there is hope.
Never give up. Never give in. Never give out. Keep pressing. Keep fighting. Because at the end of the day, something good can come out of your struggle. That’s the hope—and that’s the purpose.
Jacobsen: What innovations in music—streaming, for instance—have been acceptable in keeping the core of gospel music alive without diluting its purpose?
Melvin Williams: It’s hard. Honestly, it’s been diluted.
Doug Williams: Back in the day, when we started, it was all vinyl—vinyl records, 45s, AM and FM radio. Everything had a certain purity to it. It felt more real. The process, the sound, and the way people connected to music differed. Of course, we moved on to CDs, which were very good for a long time. But now, CDs are almost nonexistent. We’ve moved on to digital—streaming and downloading.
And sure, the good part is that many young people can access music instantly from their phones. They can stream and download anything they want. That’s a great thing. But the negative side is that many older people—especially those who love gospel music—aren’t as tech-savvy. They don’t always know how to download or stream. So it’s become harder for them to access the music they love. There are pros and cons. That’s just how I see it.
Jacobsen: How much do you prepare before a performance?
Melvin Williams: For me, it depends. It depends on how my vocals are feeling at the time. But I get as much rest as I can before a concert. And I have a few things I do vocally to help warm up. I’ll use ginger mints, honey, tea—that kind of thing. I also do some vocal exercises to open things up a bit. But I usually do all of that quietly before we go on stage. But sometimes, you have to jump into it on the spot. If you’re at a concert or an event and someone calls you up unexpectedly, you’ve just got to go for it. You’ve got to be ready.
Jacobsen: Doug, how about you?
Doug Williams: You must also be mentally prepared before you go on stage. There’s a lot of pressure—especially when three, four, five thousand people sit in the audience. When you walk out, you feel that pressure because you want to give them your best. And sometimes, your voice might not be exactly where it needs to be.
So yes, it’s a mental as well as a spiritual one. I always try to find a quiet space to get by myself before we go on stage. I pray. I test my voice a little bit. I try to get myself mentally prepared for anything because not everything goes smoothly on stage.
That’s true. Some crazy stuff can happen. I remember we were on stage in Chicago once, and one of the big stage lights fell behind us. It hit the floor and shattered. Smoke went everywhere, right in the middle of our concert. And another time, in Atlanta, the amplifier caught on fire.
Melvin Williams: Back then, those amps had tubes, and it was wild when they overheated—man. Things like that remind you that you’ve got to be mentally prepared for anything.
For me, another thing I like to do is go and look at the audience from the side of the stage before we go on. To get a feel for the room, see how big the stage is, check out the musicians, and look at the crowd. That helps calm the nerves.
Doug Williams: Yeah, and the thing is—it doesn’t matter how long you’ve been doing this. You always have a little bit of nervousness before going on stage. It’s just part of it. I’ve heard many artists say the same thing. We’ve been doing this for over sixty years, and every time—right before we go on stage—there’s a little bit of anxiety and nervousness. Just before you hit the stage.
It usually goes away once you get out there and get the microphone in your hand. But before that moment, there’s that nervous energy because you want to make sure everything is right so badly. Once you start singing, it disappears. But right before you go out, you feel those jitters—that little stuff going on inside your stomach, your nervous system. It’s real.
Jacobsen: Has anyone ever made you feel starstruck?
Doug Williams: Of course.
Melvin Williams: Of course, man.
Doug Williams: Yes. We had the opportunity to record with Stevie Wonder. He visited our studio in Jackson and spent two or three days with us. We were in awe.
Just being in the studio with Stevie and watching him work was unbelievable. Here’s a man who’s blind, and yet he was doing everything on the keyboard, handling the whole session. We were watching him in the hotel room. He had set up everything in his suite. He laid down all the music tracks for the song we were recording.
He played everything. Every instrument you hear on that track, that’s him. And most of it was done right there in the hotel room. It was like magic—just sitting there watching him put the whole thing together. Yes, we were completely starstruck. Hanging with Stevie? That was amazing.
Melvin Williams: Another one is being on stage and doing concerts with Aretha Franklin. Oh my God.
Doug Williams: Unbelievable. YShe’s the one who invited us to perform at the White House with her. That’s how we sang at the White House. Aretha called and said, “I’m getting ready to go sing for the President,”—which was President Barack Obama at the time—” and I asked my brother Bill if you all could come sing with me.” We asked, “Do you even have to ask that question?” We said, “The answer is YES.”
Melvin Williams: Oh man, it was. And I remember another time—this was another unforgettable moment—when we were nominated for our Still Here album at the Soul Train Awards. We were leaving the limousine, walking the red carpet. There were interviewers and radio folks lined up—John Salley was one of them—asking questions about the nomination. Beyoncé’s group was right ahead of us on the carpet.
We were in awe when Destiny’s Child was ahead of us on the red carpet. Starstruck. Then I turned around—and Angela Bassett was right behind us. I was like, “Oh my God.” She’s one of my all-time favourite actresses. I had no idea she had left the limousine and was walking the red carpet behind the Williams Brothers. I turned around and looked right at her. I don’t even remember if I spoke. I was that starstruck. I was thinking, “Angela Bassett is behind us, man!”
Melvin Williams: Yes—and Toni Braxton was there too.
Doug Williams: Yes! Toni Braxton, for sure.
Melvin Williams: It was wild. Crazy. We’ve been starstruck a few times over the years, no doubt about it.
Jacobsen: What about the reverse? Do any moments stand out to you—when someone else told you that a particular song or album impacted their life?
Doug Williams: We’ve had a lot of those. I’ll give you a few. Johnny Gill—a member of New Edition—called me just yesterday, and we had a long conversation. Our music has touched his life over the years. He’s been a huge fan of the Williams Brothers. He even asked us to come and sing at his mother’s funeral service in D.C. That meant a lot. And then Snoop Dogg—he’s a big fan of the Williams Brothers, too. He and his mother both loved the song “Cooling Water.” That’s one of his favourites. “I’m Just a Nobody,” “Pray for Me.” He’s really into it.
He even invited us to sing at both his mother’s and brother’s. So we’ve had the opportunity to touch the lives of many well-known people. And when someone comes up and tells you, “This song blessed me,” it means so much. It reminds us that what we’re doing is not in vain. Not only are we reaching people in the gospel realm, but we’re also reaching people outside of it—in the secular world.
Melvin Williams: Yes. It’s amazing. And Doug, do you remember that time at the Grammys? We were sitting right in front of Smokey Robinson.
Doug Williams: Yes! He was sitting right behind us.
Melvin Williams: He leaned forward and said, “Man, the Williams Brothers—I love you guys’ music. I love you all, man.”And we were like, “Oh my God, that’s Smokey!“
Doug Williams: Another story—we were in Macon, Georgia. We had just performed there and checked into the hotel. We were hanging around the lobby, just relaxing for a bit. Then, this long, white limousine pulled up, and we asked, “Who’s that?” Out steps James Brown. He entered the lobby and said, “Williams Brothers! Williams Brothers! This is a badgroup. This right here is the group, you all!” He was telling everybody in the lobby. And then he started singing! Right there in the hotel lobby. Yes! People gathered around, watching James Brown sing with the Williams Brothers in the hotel lobby. It was incredible.
Jacobsen: That’s a James Brown story we’ll never forget. It was so much fun.
Doug Williams: But having that opportunity to sing in the hotel lobby with James Brown was wild. But it was fun.
Melvin Williams: Oh man, yes. And he was a big Williams Brothers fan. He was. He loved gospel music. So did Al Green, man.
Doug Williams: No doubt. He was a big fan, too.
Jacobsen: What are you looking forward to regarding the evolution of gospel music, especially in terms of how it can keep its roots while still growing? This is a broad question, but it’s relevant for cultural preservation while acknowledging that cultures evolve.
Doug Williams: Yes. It’s a fine line you have to walk. You want to maintain the authenticity of gospel music, but you also have to recognize that the whole genre is changing. The culture is changing.
So, you have to walk that line. You want your music to stay relevant. You want your presence—your presentation—to remain relevant. But you don’t want to lose the heart of what gospel music is really about.
It’s very important that we hold on to the roots—to where we came from. That’s where the realness comes from. That’s what it’s all about. But at the same time, the world is evolving. Music is evolving.
And we don’t want to get lost in that evolution or left behind. So even though our music is still traditional gospel, we keep it fresh. Sometimes, we put a little edge on it—adjust the production, tweak the arrangement—to stay current with today’s sound. The production has to be current. The sound has to feel fresh. But the base—the foundation—you don’t lose that.
It’s like making a good gumbo, as they say in New Orleans. You’ve got to mix it all just right—keep the richness of what you had, but bring in something new to attract new listeners. You want to keep your long-time fans and gain new ones.
Melvin Williams: And you’ve got to be true to yourself. True to your gift. True to what God has done for you and the path He’s put you on. That’s what made you the artist you are today—even with all the new labels, companies, and technology.
And remember, for many of the younger audience today, what we’re doing might be brand new to them. Because they’ve never heard it before. They don’t. So when younger people hear a song like Cooling Water or Still Here, they’re like, “Wow, this sounds good.” They feel it—but they don’t always know the significance of where it came from. But it’s authentic, real music—like the blues.
And there’s only so far you can go with the blues before losing authenticity and realness. The same thing goes for traditional gospel music. It is the same for soul music and R&B. Those genres have lasted for generations—because they’re authentic. They’re real. People can feel it. And it doesn’t change.
If you put on something by Louis Armstrong—”What a Wonderful World”—that’s timeless. That song will never change. It’s a classic. And gospel music has anthems just like that. So does blues. So does the soul. So does R&B. You can’t get around what we’ve done—or what the Jackson Southernaires have done—because it’s history. It’s already made. And it was good. To me, what was good then is still good now.
I still listen to Motown. Philadelphia International. That sound. That music. That feeling.
Doug Williams: And you can tell it’s still good because so many young and new artists today are sampling old music. They’re either doing a remake or sampling it. That tells you—it’s still relevant. It’s still powerful.
Jacobsen: We’ve got one minute left. Let’s end with a quick round of favourite quotes. Go.
Doug Williams: My favourite quote has always been from my dad: “Always treat people the way you want to be treated.”
Melvin Williams: That’s my favourite, too. I can say ditto on that one.
Jacobsen: All right, everyone. Thank you very much for your time today. It was lovely to meet you both.
Melvin Williams: I appreciate you, man.
Doug Williams: Thanks so much, Scott. Thanks for having us.
Melvin Williams: Yes, man. We appreciate it.
Jacobsen: Cheers. Take care.
Doug Williams: All right.
Melvin Williams: Bye-bye!
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/09
Leah Levi, psychologist, sex and dating expert at first explorationships app Flure. With over six years in the dating app industry, she provides expert insights on relationships, intimacy, and self-confidence. Through her personal experience with breast reduction surgery, Leah advocates for body positivity and self-care, empowering individuals to build healthier relationships. She frequently explores topics like relationship patterns, digital-age breakups, and the psychological impact of body image on intimacy. Leah’s work has been featured in leading media outlets, where she shares evidence-based advice on love, dating, and modern relationship dynamics.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: When did the 4B movement become something of note, in general, and for you?
Leah Levi: The 4B movement started gaining momentum around 2019. It started as a reaction to gender inequality in South Korea, gaining momentum after several major cases of violence and discrimination against women. For me, it became impossible to ignore when it started resonating beyond South Korea—women everywhere are rethinking traditional gender roles, especially when it comes to dating, marriage, and motherhood.
Jacobsen: What does the 4B movement mean in its stances, but also its derivatives?
Levi: The 4B movement—short for “Four No’s” (from four Korean words beginning with “bi”) – means no dating, no sex, no marriage, and no childbirth. Women in the movement see these expectations as unfair pressures limiting their independence and life opportunities.
Jacobsen: The 4B movement is a South Korean cultural response. One grounded in the facets of gender inequality and misogyny. What other national movements outside of South Korea reflect this movement?
Japan’s “Parasite Singles” – Women choosing not to marry due to financial and social pressures.
China’s “Leftover Women” (Sheng Nu) Rebellion – Educated, unmarried women rejecting societal pressure to marry.
Western Feminist Movements: In the U.S., following political events like the 2024 presidential election, there’s been a surge of interest in the 4B movement.
Jacobsen: What have been the counter-movements to the 4B Movement?
Levi: In South Korea, the 4B movement has faced backlash, especially from men’s rights activists and anti-feminist groups who see it as an extreme and threatening tradition.
Similar reactions have happened globally, for example, from groups like Red Pill (a controversial online community) and MGTOW (Men Going Their Way). These movements don’t just tell men to avoid relationships – they claim feminism has “ruined” society, spreading conspiracy theories fueled by misogyny and anger toward independent women.
Jacobsen: Trump-era politics is primarily economically motivated, with various derivatives, including co-equal restrictions on public provisions for women, e.g., reproductive rights, etc. How have these contributed to other countries’ women adopting the 4B movement-like activist principles?
Levi: For many, the new administration’s policies feel like a direct attack on women’s autonomy, from attempts to defund Planned Parenthood to the rollback of reproductive healthcare protections. This has pushed some women toward more radical forms of protest, like the 4B movement. When rights feel under threat, women are more likely to reject traditional expectations, including marriage and motherhood, as a way to reclaim control over their lives.
Jacobsen: Some South Korean women cite safety concerns and misogyny as reasons for the adoption of 4B principles. Do these motivations apply more so in the U.S.?
Levi: Yes and no. In the U.S., issues like domestic violence, workplace harassment, and restrictions on reproductive rights are big concerns. Still, they play out differently due to cultural and legal differences.
Jacobsen: High-profile cases reinforced discussions about misogyny. Do these serve as further catalysts for feminist action?
Levi: The 4B Movement began in South Korea, inspired by a tragic 2016 murder in Gangnam, where a man killed a woman out of resentment. Women, there were tired of feeling unsafe and unseen, and 4B became a way to reject those constraints and reclaim their lives.
Pop culture events add fuel to the sentiment. High-profile cases like the recent allegations against P. Diddy remind us that toxic power dynamics still go unchecked, even at the highest levels. Women feel this impact in their everyday lives, and 4B offers a way to stand against these norms.
Jacobsen: What will be the likely long-term consequences of the 4B movement as it expands and evolves, breaks into other smaller movements, and so on, in South Korea?
Levi: The potential 4B movement’s long-term consequences in South Korea could include:
- Policy Changes – The government might introduce new policies to address gender inequality and make marriage and parenting more appealing.
- Shifting Social Norms – Ideas about gender roles, relationships, and family structures could continue evolving, leading to a more independent and self-focused approach to life for many women.
- Lower Birth Rates – South Korea’s declining birth rate could drop even further. A smaller future workforce could impact productivity and slow down economic growth.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Leah.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/09
Dr. Neal Baer is a physician, producer, writer, and public health advocate who bridges the worlds of medicine and entertainment. A former showrunner for Law & Order: SVU and ER, he has used television to drive public conversations on critical health topics like HIV, vaccines, and genetic editing. He has taught at UCLA, Yale, and Harvard, where he co-directs a program on the intersection of medicine and entertainment. Dr. Baer authored The Promise and Peril of CRISPR and speaks widely at national scientific conferences. GLAAD, the AMA, and the Writers Guild of America have recognized his work.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Dr. Neal Baer. He is a physician, producer, writer, and public health advocate. He has worked across the fields of medicine and entertainment. A former showrunner for Law & Order: SVU and ER, he has used television to spark conversations on critical public health issues like HIV, vaccines, and genetic editing. Dr. Baer has taught at UCLA, Yale, and Harvard, where he now co-directs a program on the intersection of medicine and entertainment. He is the author and editor of The Promise and Peril of CRISPR and a frequent speaker at national scientific conferences. GLAAD, the American Medical Association, and the Writers Guild of America have recognized his contributions. Thank you very much for joining me today. I appreciate it.
Dr. Neal Baer: Sure, my pleasure.
Jacobsen: Let us start with the basics. What do you think are a child’s most foundational needs today? Has that changed with social media and the Internet?
Baer: Big question. Foundationally, the most significant need is conversation. Taking care of children in terms of food, housing, and healthcare is critical, and many of these needs are still not being met. With recent policy changes pulling back support for food assistance, free lunches, and healthcare, these issues have become even more pressing. Beyond material needs, having honest conversations with children is essential. We have evolved over millions of years to communicate face-to-face. In the last few decades, particularly with the rise of digital communication, we have moved away from that natural form of interaction. This shift has had a profound impact on mental health and even on physical health by reducing outdoor activity and play. These are issues children face today that earlier generations, including yours and mine, did not experience in the same way.
Jacobsen: With this infusion of technology, we see physical activity and mental health changes. What areas are the most acute pain points where children are impacted the most?
Baer: Research shows that social media use negatively affects children’s self-esteem. Kids often compare themselves to others online, leading to feelings of inadequacy and depression. Cyberbullying is another major issue, along with a loss of the nurturing support that comes from real-world friendships and family interactions. Spending extensive time on video games or platforms like TikTok reduces opportunities for healthy, in-person socialization. Although attention on these issues grew after shows like 13 Reasons Why sparked widespread conversation, concerns about youth mental health existed long before. Today’s major pressure points involve helping children reconnect through in-person play, genuine face-to-face interaction with friends and family, and minimizing endless scrolling through media content.
We cannot adapt that quickly. It would take tens of thousands of years. The jump was so fast, and now it is accelerating with AI. What is next? Will we not need to do research anymore? I talk to my students about AI; we use it across different platforms. One could now conduct literature reviews without reading the literature, as was necessary in the past. Many of these shortcuts may be detrimental to our cognition simply because that is not how we evolved. We evolved to talk to each other. We are talking to each other now in a way that was not conceivable 30 or even 25 years ago. I remember when we did not have answering machines, and then we did voicemail, and so on. This incredibly rapid movement of technology causes fundamental dissonance in our physical and emotional health.
Jacobsen: There is much hype about neuroplasticity, but neuroplasticity exists throughout the lifespan. Suppose these changes happen during the earliest stages of development. Do we have any indication of what to expect longitudinally over the lifespan, especially if children are immersed in technology and are missing the face-to-face interactions that were far more common a quarter century ago?
Baer: We cannot predict that until we see kids who have lived through it into old age. Yes, we have neuroplasticity, but what does that mean? Yes, our brains can make new neural connections, but does that mean it satisfies our nervous system, given the tens of thousands of years of evolution? We evolved to look at each other in the face, be there in person, hear voices, observe the subtleties of facial expressions, and touch one another. Gestures are part of that, and we are doing that less now. What does that mean? I do not know. What does that mean for the brain? I am sure researchers are studying it. But does neuroplasticity compensate for that loss? I am not so sure. We will not know the answer until we have studied cohorts that have experienced different levels and types of social media exposure over a lifetime.
Jacobsen: What about a constructive orientation? What could parents do individually within their families to curb some of these adverse effects?
Baer: Draw the line on social media. Please do not allow it, or at least limit it significantly. Say no. Create opportunities for children to play outside, play games, read, and have in-person conversations. It is a challenge because parents are overwhelmed, working hard, and often caught up in their social media habits. It takes much intention to unplug, or at least to unplug for one day a week. I know families that do that, and they seem pretty happy—being able to talk to each other, to share meals, and to have those conversations that are otherwise difficult, if not impossible, when everyone is glued to their iPhone.
Jacobsen: What about having a scheduled time to get outside more and engage in more social activity, aside from simply restricting social media and Internet use? Also, do we have any objective metrics about the possible shrinking of children’s social circles? Has that been measured as well?
Baer: I don’t know for sure, but I imagine children’s social circles have shrunk, particularly for those who are homeschooled. Homeschooling is problematic because public schools allow all children to be seen. If a child is attending school and there are signs of physical or emotional abuse or neglect, a teacher or school staff member might notice and intervene. I was an elementary school teacher outside Denver, Colorado, for several years. If a child is homeschooled, however, it is possible that no one outside the family ever sees that child. That concern is separate from the dangers of being immersed in social media. Homeschooling can isolate a child from society altogether. More and more children are being homeschooled, and I am very concerned about that trend.
We hear much about “parental rights” but not enough about the child’s rights. Children have rights, too. For example, there is much discussion today about parents wanting to know if their child has changed their pronouns at school. But if a child does not feel safe telling their parents that they are transgender or non-binary, what does that suggest? It suggests the child has good reason to be afraid. Speaking as a pediatrician, a child who feels supported by their parents would not hesitate to share something so personal. We now see a troubling dynamic where some parents view their children almost as property rather than as individuals with their own needs and identities. That is harmful. Parents are there to provide and care for children, but children have their own lives, too.
I worry deeply about the current administration and the parental rights movement, which often overshadows what is genuinely in the best interest of the child. Children usually do know what is right for them, especially in cases where non-binary and transgender kids choose not to inform their parents. You can easily imagine why. If they are afraid, it says something profound about their home environment.
Jacobsen: What does this kind of secrecy do to the mental health of children when they feel they have to hide parts of themselves?
Baer: Exactly, exactly. And what pressure does it put on teachers now to act as monitors or tattletales in certain states, where they must inform parents about what is happening with their children? We see real conflict in places like Florida, where parents have the right to know if their children are changing their pronouns. But at the same time, they are also considering, or have already passed, child labour laws that allow kids to work at younger ages. Why is that? It is partly because of efforts to remove undocumented workers, who often perform labour that is essential but goes unacknowledged. Instead of addressing that issue, we see proposals to have children work in dangerous environments, using hazardous machinery in the Midwest or Florida. It makes no sense if your goal is truly to protect children. It raises the question: do you want to protect them, or do you want to own them?
Jacobsen: In that sense, do you encounter conversations where the implication is that parents view children as a form of property?
Baer: Parents may not consciously think that, but their actions suggest it, especially if they support changes to child labour laws or assert the right to control fully what their child can and cannot read or do. This diminishes the autonomy of the developing child and stifles their ability to come into their own. For example, if a child cannot go to a library and select a book they are interested in—say, a children’s book about a gay penguin—and the parent intervenes to block it, it suggests that the parent sees themselves as having ownership over the child’s mind. At what age does the child gain the ability to make independent choices—only at 18? This kind of indoctrination is deeply concerning. Children are often very accepting of one another and capable of making decisions that help them become active participants in their communities and the political sphere.
Jacobsen: You have held space for conversations about science and the medical industry. I also see some relation to this subject, particularly when these issues become politically charged by using the American phrase. What is a tactful way to hold space for a conversation with people who prioritize parental rights over parental responsibility, seemingly overlooking the international consensus reflected in the Convention on the Rights of the Child? How do you create room for that dialogue? Also, what kinds of misunderstandings do you commonly see beyond the general misconception that parents have a property right to their children or that parental rights outweigh parental responsibilities? I am unaware of any significant international conventions prioritizing parental rights over the child’s rights.
Baer: First, I do not believe the United States has ever ratified the UN Convention on the Rights of the Child. That is still an ongoing situation. It used to be the United States and Somalia that had not ratified it; I don’t know if Somalia has since signed, but we can look that up. There has always been a fear of offending certain groups by adopting international agreements like that. So, holding space for these conversations is essential.
For instance, I addressed this on Law and Order: Special Victims Unit. If a parent decides not to vaccinate their child for measles, and that five-year-old child goes to a public park while contagious, even if the parent does not realize how serious it is, that child can expose others. In the episode we created, a vaccinated child was too young—under one year old—to have received the MMR (measles, mumps, rubella) vaccine. That younger child contracted measles and died. So, whose responsibility is that? Is it the parent’s responsibility only to their child to do what they believe is best? Or is it also their responsibility to the broader community of children?
We were among the first shows to press that ethical question: If your actions with your child cause harm to another child, are you responsible? Through storytelling, we encouraged audiences to think about what is best for their child and the impact their actions can have on other children. We saw this again during COVID-19—people refusing vaccination and becoming sick or refusing to vaccinate children who then became ill. What is our responsibility to the community, not just our immediate loved ones?
Science supports this. For example, infants cannot receive the MMR vaccine until they are at least one year old because of immune system development. Was the mother who chose not to vaccinate her child responsible for the death of the infant who contracted measles? We argued yes—because she knowingly brought her unvaccinated child into a public space, leading to another child’s exposure and death. Alternatively, should the infant’s mother have isolated the baby until vaccination was possible? These are the complex questions we raise through storytelling.
It also involves data. We have solid data on measles: it is highly contagious, and often, people do not know they are infectious until it is too late. We must acknowledge that science operates through a process—it accrues knowledge over time. It is not always immediately definitive. Many people struggle with that uncertainty. They want clear, unchanging answers about things like COVID or measles, but science evolves. Even today, we cannot definitively predict the long-term effects of long COVID. We are still learning.
We did not understand why some children died from measles until fairly recently when researchers at Harvard showed that measles could destroy a child’s memory of their antibodies. That might be one of the reasons they succumb to complications like pneumonia, as happened with at least one little girl in Texas. So we have excellent data. Whether or not people believe it—that is the big challenge now. This connects back to social media because it is very powerful in telling stories, often laced with misinformation, that are emotionally scary. We tend to remember what frightens us. We must begin in childhood by helping kids understand the scientific method—what it means to conduct experiments, what it means to accrue knowledge through experimentation, and how we build on that knowledge. I am not sure homeschooled children necessarily get that kind of education. Hopefully, they do, but it is not guaranteed.
Jacobsen: As a fact-check for the transcript, as of April 2025, 2015, Somalia signed and ratified the Convention on the Rights of the Child. They are now about a decade into their ratification. The United States signed the CRC on February 16, 1995, indicating an intention to consider ratification. As of February 16 this year, it has been thirty years without ratification. The United States remains the only UN member state that has not ratified the treaty. The CRC is the most widely signed human rights convention in UN history. So there you go. What does that say about what we are talking about? It says America has many child marriages.
Baer: We covered that on Designated Survivor. We did an episode where Kiefer Sutherland’s character, the president, meets with a Saudi businessperson who is travelling with a very young woman. Kiefer’s character says, “Do you travel often with your father?” and the young woman replies, “He’s not my father; he’s my husband.” She is 14 years old. All the cameras click, click, click, click. The initial reaction is outrage: “Look what Saudi Arabia does to their children—child marriage!” But the story gets more interesting. Who has a higher rate of child marriage, the U.S. or Saudi Arabia? The answer is the United States. We designed that episode to challenge assumptions and reveal the uncomfortable data-backed truth.
Only a few states—maybe five, though it could be slightly more now—completely ban marriage under 18. The data show that young women, often pressured to marry because their boyfriends are much older and could be prosecuted for statutory rape, suffer worse outcomes economically and educationally. In our episode, we integrated real documentary footage of a young woman from Kentucky whose parents forced her to marry at 13 after she became pregnant by her 40-year-old boyfriend—a situation that caused enormous calamity in her life. Missouri, for example, is considered the child marriage capital because it only requires one parent’s consent to marry under 18. A mother could take her daughter to marry without the father’s knowledge, or vice versa. We have many issues in the United States that we do not necessarily talk about, write about, or show on television. We often assume the worst problems are elsewhere, but that is untrue.
Jacobsen: What are your favourite quotes from any shows you have worked on, specifically from episodes where you were the major contributor or a key contributor? What are your favourite quotes?
Baer: My favourite quote is from the measles episode, where the mother is on trial for involuntary manslaughter. Hillary Duff played the party mother, and the other mother—the so-called “good” mother—fed her child organic food and did everything right except for one thing: she did not vaccinate her child. Her child ended up giving Hillary Duff’s character’s child measles. That child died because she was too young to have been vaccinated. Stephanie March’s character, the assistant district attorney, says to the mother, “If doctors think that children should be vaccinated, and you are of a different opinion, how do you explain that?” The mother replies with my favourite line of any show I have ever done: “Science is just another opinion.”
You asked for my favourite line. That is it. And I still see that mentality today—this idea that facts are elitist. It is as if observing, counting, and measuring have become suspect. That, to me, is one of the most trenchant problems we face today. Facts are not elitist. They are the result of accumulated data and careful analysis. They are foundational to understanding reality.
Jacobsen: We have about two minutes left. What is the most heartbreaking thing you have encountered while writing, teaching, or studying, particularly in pediatrics?
Baer: Heartbreaking? I would say recently, it was my conflict with Children’s Hospital Los Angeles. They stopped treating transgender kids after Trump signed an executive order prohibiting it. I challenged them. First, I pointed out that they forced doctors to break their Hippocratic oath. Second, I asked them what message they were sending to these kids: that they were not worth protecting because the hospital was afraid of losing funding. Third, I criticized their cowardice for not standing up to Trump, especially given the overwhelming data supporting the benefits of gender-affirming care.
I can cite studies published in the New England Journal of Medicine, The Lancet, JAMA, and Pediatrics that show how puberty blockers significantly promote mental health in transgender and non-binary youth. When I confronted them, they said, “It is not that we do not care—we are afraid.” And I said, “It is understandable to be afraid, but you are breaking your oaths and heading down a dangerous path.” Perhaps if institutions had stood up and said, “We will continue treating these children,” it would have helped push back against the administration’s policies.
Baer: NYU Langone and other hospitals stopped providing care during that period. Thankfully, the attorney general of California and a court case in Maryland forced hospitals like Children’s Hospital Los Angeles to resume care. However, the fact that they backed down so quickly shows how real the problem of fear is today—fear of consequences, even when harm to children is the immediate result.
Jacobsen: Any favorite quotes on resilience?
Baer: Yes. I gave a talk at Harvard Medical School’s commencement in 2018, where I said, “Curiosity is the gateway to empathy.” If we are curious about other people, that is how we develop empathy. But I would change that quote now. I would say, “Curiosity is the gateway to compassion” because I think the word empathy has become overused. People use it, but I am not sure we always understand what it means. Can we truly walk in someone else’s shoes? No, of course not. We can only walk in our shoes. But we can imagine another person’s life through storytelling, movies, poetry, music, fiction, and dance. That is why I prefer the word compassion. It opens our hearts and minds to the struggles of others. So today, I would say, “Curiosity is the gateway to compassion.”
That connects to what we discussed initially—how do we nurture curiosity? Is it through social media and endless flipping through content? Or is it through reading books, having conversations, going outside to catch tadpoles or butterflies, or watching a cocoon being made? It is one thing to see it in a video; it is entirely different to experience it firsthand. One of the most important things we can do—getting back to what you asked at the start—is to nurture genuine curiosity in children.
Jacobsen: Dr. Baer, thank you for your time and expertise. It was very nice to meet you.
Baer: Likewise. Thank you. Cheers. Take care.
Jacobsen: Bye.
Baer: Bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/09
Neil Sahota, an IBM Master Inventor and AI expert, discusses AI’s rapid evolution, applications, and ethical challenges. He explains AI as a “high-energy intern” that learns from data rather than following rigid programming, differentiating it from traditional software. AI’s ability to process natural language enables contextual understanding. Still, there are many misconceptions, including fears of AI replacing jobs when, in reality, humans using AI will replace those who do not. Sahota highlights the global AI race, particularly between China and the U.S., and the importance of proactive AI governance in addressing these concerns. He emphasizes the role of hybrid intelligence, where AI complements human strengths, as seen in law, healthcare, and education. Countries like the UAE and Singapore are leveraging AI for workforce transformation. Sahota warns of AI’s dangers, including the lack of explainability in decision-making, and stresses the need for ethical frameworks to ensure responsible innovation.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, we’re here with Neil Sahota. He is an IBM Master Inventor, AI advisor, AI expert, and co-author of Own the AI Revolution. He is also a faculty member at UC Irvine. I’ve done three years of fellowships at UC Irvine, so go Anteaters.
He has over twenty years of experience driving innovation across healthcare, legal services, and telecommunications industries. He has advised startups, venture capital funds, and investment groups such as Tech Coast Angels and Passion for Social Impact. He also supports nonprofits like the Zero Abuse Project and Planet Home, which are organizations leveraging AI and emerging technologies to drive business growth and sustainability. His work bridges technology, entrepreneurship, and social impact, making him a recognized leader in AI innovation. So, thank you for joining me today. I appreciate you taking the time.
My first question is about AI. We have science fiction representations of it and popularizers discussing concepts like the law of accelerating returns, exponentials, and scaling laws. We see public tensions between Sam Altman and Elon Musk, primarily with Musk criticizing Altman. We also observe global competition for AI dominance, particularly between China and the United States.
It’s a complex landscape, but many discussions make broad assumptions. Can you unpack what we mean when we say “AI”? What are some common myths, and what is the reality?
Neil Sahota: That’s a great place to start.
First, there is no universally accepted definition of AI, which is part of the challenge. The United Nations and many AI experts generally define AI as a system that can perform tasks requiring cognition without direct human supervision.
So, when we talk about AI, I like to call it a high-energy intern.
You don’t program AI in the traditional sense. Unlike conventional software, AI doesn’t follow a rigid set of pre-defined instructions. Instead, we teach AI—this is where machine learning comes into play.
We provide AI with something called ground truth—guidelines on how to make decisions, but not the decisions themselves. We give it vast amounts of data and human feedback, and that’s how it learns—and it learns fast.
The second key point is that AI understands natural language. Most people don’t speak in perfectly structured sentences—we use slang, idioms, and jargon. AI is different from traditional search engines, which rely primarily on keywords.
For example, if you type into Google, Show me restaurants, but not pizza, it might still show you pizza places.
AI, on the other hand, has contextual understanding. It processes grammar, syntax, and meaning, recognizing that not pizza means it should exclude pizza-related results.
So it understands how we speak. Then there’s the conversational aspect, which is more of a back-and-forth. It’s almost like I’m talking to a human. I can have a persistent conversation, whereas more traditional software search engines don’t remember the last command that we put in. So, that’s what we call AI.
Now, there is much hype regarding reality versus hype. There is no one mega ChatGPT, for example, that knows what a billion users are doing. There are several hundred billion instances of ChatGPT. You pay for ChatGPT to have your private instance.
There are multiple versions of it with different knowledge and capabilities. There isn’t one uber version. That’s the biggest misconception people have, which is ironic, given data privacy and security concerns. People expect that AI already knows how to do things, but that’s not the truth. Unless you’ve taught the AI how to do it and trained it on your processes and data, it doesn’t know how to do that work.
That’s why I always say it’s a high-energy intern. It’s ready to do whatever you want, but you must teach it. That’s the key thing. AI can only do what we can teach it. That’s why it’s good at reading through documents, detecting money laundering, helping plan vacations, or analyzing symptoms a person is showing—or not showing—to assist doctors and nurses with diagnoses.
But we can’t do things like reading brain waves. We don’t fully understand how that works as humans, so we can’t teach AI. That’s the line between hype and reality.
Jacobsen: Now, when it comes to the United Nations and AI ethics, how does AI ethics build into international frameworks? How can we guide the development of this technology when we strip away the myths and deal primarily with reality?
Sahota: I’ve been a big proponent of the idea that bad actors do bad things, but good actors need a nudge.
Historically, there has been much investment in AI, and businesses naturally think about the return on that investment, which makes sense. But from a societal standpoint, there’s often been this divide—profit versus nonprofit—not recognizing the intersection between the two: social enterprise.
That’s one of the reasons I worked with the United Nations to co-found the AI for Good initiative.
First, it’s about creating that nudge for good actors. Second, we don’t set guidelines or establish frameworks for AI ethics. In that case, people won’t consider these issues.
Historically, there has been an assumption that smart technologists—software engineers and roboticists—consider these ethical implications. But often, they don’t. They focus on what we call nonfunctional requirements (NFRs)—things like security, performance, and privacy. They build to technical requirements and design to specifications, but these NFRs often get overlooked unless they are explicitly addressed.
So, as a result, what tends to happen is that they build designs to achieve specific outcomes, but they don’t think about other possible uses or misuses.
Take drones, for example. When they first came out, the idea was that they could be used for land surveying, inspecting dams for damage, or performing other efficiency-related tasks in difficult-to-access areas. No one initially considered the potential risks—like someone flying a drone near an airport or into someone’s backyard to take a video of their child playing.
That’s the challenge we face—as a society, we’ve always been reactive.
When something bad happens, we analyze it, regulators step in, and we try to put safeguards in place so it doesn’t happen again. But AI has triggered the Fourth Industrial Revolution, and things are moving at a pace we call hypercharge.
We’re experiencing a hundred years of change in just ten years.
We don’t have time to be reactive anymore. By the time something bad happens, it could have already affected tens—if not hundreds—of millions of people. So, we must improve our proactive thinking. That’s one of the things we’re working on at the United Nations—fostering a mindset that encourages anticipating risks before they happen.
With AI governance, one of the ongoing discussions involves creating a consortium and a database to track potential uses and misuse of AI. But AI itself has a unique superpower that helps us in this effort.
First, AI is great at scenario planning.
Second, AI is the only tool that allows us to ask it:
“How can we use you better?” or “How might others misuse you?”
Our ability to think proactively is assisted by AI itself.
It’s a double-edged sword—depending on the intent of the person using it, technology can be used for good or harm.
However, the ultimate goal is to create that nudge for good actors and drive more positive innovation, particularly around the United Nations Sustainable Development Goals (SDGs).
Jacobsen: Regarding AI and ethics, the UAE, particularly Dubai, is one of the leading technology hubs in the world, especially within the MENA region.
This is something we see worldwide. For example, Dubai is developing flying taxis and integrating technology into snowboarding, skiing, and other recreational industries. Despite stereotypes, the UAE is a very tech-friendly place.
So, when we look at regions with huge capital flows that are not traditionally associated with AI, how do international AI ethics frameworks fit?
Are there specific governmental institutions, demographic considerations, or conflict dynamics within the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) region that make applying AI ethics easier or more difficult?
Sahota: That’s a great question, Scott, and the answer is—it’s both easier and more difficult. It’s a weird dichotomy, to be honest.
It makes things easier because so many people are now using AI technology—even in the first wave of adoption—that they’ve at least been exposed to both the good and the bad. They’ve seen the potential for great benefits and the risk of great harm. That has led more member nations, government agencies, and private companies to discuss where to draw the boundaries.
From that perspective, it has become easier to have these conversations.
When new technologies emerge, there has always been tension between innovation and regulation. But now, more people recognize that we must invest in these discussions and figure things out before it’s too late.
Where it becomes difficult is agreeing on what is right.
What does right use even mean?
Take China, for example. There, police officers wear AI-powered smart glasses—ironically made by Google—that allow them to scan a person’s face and immediately see their name, home address, workplace, and location history for the last two hours.
On the one hand, this is incredibly effective for law enforcement—it helps locate criminals and missing children much faster.
But then, of course, you have to think about the nefarious possibilities of such surveillance.
From a Chinese cultural perspective, they may view this as a positive tool for public safety.
Meanwhile, in many Western countries, people would call this too much like Big Brother—an extreme invasion of privacy.
And that’s the real challenge in the digital age—no borders.
Nothing prevents people from using the same technology in completely different ways in different parts of the world.
So when we talk about “right use,” the real question becomes:
Do we need a global standard or baseline for morals and ethics?
That’s a visceral issue because it’s deeply personal to people.
I remember speaking at the Global Symposium for Regulators back in 2018. They asked me to give a speech, and that was one of the key points I raised.
I said:
“If we’re trying to establish the right guidelines and guardrails—not just for AI, but for all emerging technologies—we must agree on what ‘right use’ means.”
I threw a hand grenade into the conversation.
Everyone knew it needed to be addressed, but no one wanted to talk about it.
When I finished my speech, no one applauded. No one looked happy.
One of the Deputy Secretary-Generals (DSGs) walked up to the stage and said:
“Neil, that was a brave thing to say. It was the right thing. But you didn’t make any friends. You should leave now.
So, I did.
But what surprised me?
They invited me back the next year.
But then you start seeing these hallway conversations about it. Ironically, I was asked to come back last year at GSR, and they started calling me Firestarter. They didn’t understand at first, but then Doreen Bogdan-Martin, the Secretary-General of the International Telecommunication Union (ITU), told me, “A lot of this year’s GSR agenda is based on that speech you gave.”
So, just having those hallway conversations helped spark something—they made people realize the need for these discussions about how we define right use and misuse. It’s easy to say, “If it helps people, it’s beneficial. If it harms people, it’s bad.” But in reality, there’s a lot more nuance.
Take the China example—that’s the kind of struggle we see. We recognize that different cultural perspectives must be brought to the table. Seeing more engagement from the EMEA region—the Middle East, Africa, and parts of Europe—is encouraging because they’re bringing their own priorities and insights. We’re seeing strong participation from the UAE, Saudi Arabia, Egypt, Kenya, and Uganda.
And they’re raising a critical issue: If this is another kind of digital race, it’s exacerbating the digital divide between the haves and the have-nots.
This AI race isn’t just about who develops the best models—it has ripple effects. We’re now seeing a global scramble for rare earth metals to build the next generation of AI hardware, and even space exploration is being driven by the search for more of these resources. That’s creating a new divide between nations with strong R&D capabilities and those without.
So now, the discussion isn’t just about the ethical use of AI—it’s about the infrastructure needed to support it. Think about GPUs (graphics processing units), 5G, and soon-to-be 6G speeds—these are essential for AI to function. But they also introduce economic and geopolitical tensions. So, AI ethics must include discussions about who controls the infrastructure.
Jacobsen: So even if AI is doing 99% of the computational analysis, what are the things that will still require human input?
Sahota: A lot. People forget that while machines excel in certain areas, there are still many things humans are fundamentally better at.
AI struggles with first-of-a-kind tasks requiring imagination, creativity, or drawing completely new insights. Those are human strengths—and machines cannot replicate them. And the goal here isn’t to replace people. I know that’s a big fear, but the truth is: It’s not AI replacing people—it’s the person using AI who is replacing the person not using AI.
I’ve worked with dozens of institutions, companies, and government agencies that hoped AI would reduce headcount. But 95% of the time, that didn’t happen. They found that automating some of the administrative grunt work freed people to focus on higher-value, complex tasks.
Let’s take the legal industry as an example—since it plays a central role in government regulations and is the second slowest-moving industry I’ve ever seen.
Three lawyers founded a company called Legalmation. They weren’t technical experts but wanted to build a tool for their firm. They asked themselves: What’s something standardized and simple we can automate? Since they were defence litigators, they created an AI associate lawyer to handle complaints—the initial legal filings when someone is sued.
They built an AI system to read the complaint, fill out the corresponding court documents, generate a counter-complaint, draft deposition questions, and conduct initial case research. What previously took a human associate lawyer with three years of experience, about 10 to 12 hours, now takes just two minutes.
A human lawyer still reviews the AI’s work, spending 30 to 45 minutes fixing gaps or errors. But instead of eliminating jobs, they found that they could repurpose their associate lawyers to focus on more valuable work:
- Jury selection
- Spending more time with clients
- Practicing legal arguments
- Collaborating with co-counsel
- Developing case strategies
- Building business relationships earlier in their careers
These are all far more valuable to a law firm than spending hours on administrative tasks.
And that’s what we’re seeing across the board.
This is one of the biggest reasons we’re witnessing explosive AI growth in the UAE, Middle East, and Africa. AI is giving these regions a leapfrog moment, allowing them to radically upskill their workforce and reshape industries.
When discussing AI in the workplace, it’s not about humans versus machines. It’s about humans using machines—what we call hybrid intelligence. That’s the real future of work—leveraging human strengths while augmenting them with AI capabilities. That’s what’s amplifying innovation right now.
Jacobsen: What do you think is the real promise of the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) region for AI? And how have communities, demographics, and governments decided to organize themselves locally, nationally, and regionally?
Sahota: Well, one of the other things I always say is: Local problems have global solutions. And the work happening in MENA reflects that. For example, the UAE developed the Falcon platform because it needed AI tools that could understand Arabic, a language spoken by hundreds of millions of people.
They built their own AI models—including an Arabic version of ChatGPT—to address local linguistic and cultural needs. That’s exactly the kind of innovation we need. It’s a great example of how we can build AI solutions tailored to different languages, regions, and specific needs.
The second major area where AI impacts the Middle East and North Africa (MENA) region is health care and education, particularly through AI-driven tutors. However, one issue many people don’t realize is that some parts of the Middle East have high unemployment rates, especially among young people.
There’s a cultural and economic push for young people to pursue master’s degrees and Ph.D.s—and many do—but there still aren’t enough high-quality jobs for all of them.
By investing in AI, EMEA countries are not only diversifying away from oil but also creating entirely new job sectors. This enables highly educated individuals to apply their skills in AI-related fields and industries that didn’t previously exist in the region.
It’s another great model for future work that embraces hybrid intelligence and provides a template for other member nations and regions to follow.
This is important because we tend to focus on big tech companies and superpower countries when discussing AI. However, EMEA proves that with enough investment and support—from other member nations or the UN—almost any country can build its own AI ecosystem.
And that’s the baseline we need to get every country to—a place where they have the foundation to develop AI solutions for themselves and their communities.
Jacobsen: What are the perils of AI?
Sahota: Well, there are a few. Let me talk about some of the biggest ones.
One of the most fundamental challenges is human nature—and the reality is that an AI arms race is happening right now.
Just like we’ve had tech arms races in the past, nations and corporations are now competing for AI dominance. And as much as we’d like to believe that everyone is working for the greater good, there are always casualties in a competition like this.
The mistake is thinking of AI as a winner-takes-all game—as if there’s a fixed pie where one group has to take less so another can take more. But that mindset is creeping in, so the things we prioritize are not always the best choices. Sometimes, we sacrifice ethical considerations or rush developments to stay ahead in the race.
The second major peril, and honestly, the one that freaks me out the most, is that we are reaching a point where many people working on AI don’t fully understand what they’re building anymore.
The most successful AI solutions come from domain experts—for example:
- Legal AI should be developed by lawyers, paralegals, and legal professionals.
- Health AI should involve doctors, nurses, and clinical researchers.
- Marketers and data analysts should guide marketing AI.
However, too many people still believe technologists should dictate how AI is built and applied. As a result, we see a flood of tech startups led by engineers and developers trying to solve problems they don’t fully understand—problems they assume exist but often don’t.
And as a result, you end up with AI systems that don’t do what they’re supposed to do.
Take Facebook’s AI advertising system, for example. About a year and a half ago, they rolled out an AI-driven ad placement system and got busted for redlining.
Now, redlining refers to an illegal practice where certain demographics are excluded from opportunities—typically housing or financial services—based on race, ethnicity, religion, or sex. In the U.S., the Fair Housing Act explicitly prohibits this kind of discrimination.
But here’s what happened: People listing housing ads through Facebook trusted the AI to find the right audience. Instead of marketing to everyone, the AI intentionally excluded certain demographics based on its own learned associations.
So when Facebook was caught and fined, it returned to its engineers and asked, “Why didn’t you account for redlining when training the AI?” And the engineers said, “What’s redlining?” That’s exactly the kind of thing that worries me the most.
People build AI models without fully understanding the industries or social systems they affect. We see similar issues in generative AI (GenAI), especially in business applications. People write prompts but don’t understand all the parameters that influence the model’s outputs.
It used to be good enough to get a roughly accurate result, but now, “good enough” is no longer good enough. For example, my friend LJ Rich, a musician, has used AI for years to help compose music. She uses custom-built AI for melody generation, and her prompts are 500 words long.
She considers every detail—which notes to use, in what order, what harmonies to apply, rhythm, style, and other musical parameters.
We’ve discovered that even people who have worked in their fields for decades don’t always know all the parameters involved.
So, if experts in their industries don’t know the depth of AI models, how can technologies do it?
This leads to two major technical challenges in AI:
- Interpretability—Business leaders don’t use AI to arrive at certain decisions. Still, as long as it seems to work, they use it.
- Interoperability—Even technologists are now reaching a point where they fully understand how AI arrives at certain results.
And unfortunately, most companies aren’t parenting transparency.
Some of this could be solved by using explainable AI, which we did with IBM Watson. We made sure that Watson could explain every conclusion it arrived at.
But the problem is, most AI companies don’t bud on this. They see it as extra work, administrative overhead, and something that reduces ROI.
So, those are two of the biggest AI perils that must be addressed.
Jacobsen: We always hear about Sam Altman, Elon Musk, and Eric Schmidt—the figures who dominate the news cycle about AI. But in your opinion, who are the real AI leaders internationally— particularly in the Middle East?
Sahota: That’s an interesting question because it depends on which part of AI you’re talking about.
There are many different flavors of AI, including visual recognition, natural language processing (NLP), large language models (LLMs), small language models (SLMs), and more. Different leaders and organizations are excelling in different areas. No leader is necessarily better than the others, but there are key figures in different areas of AI development.
For example, you have Geoffrey Hinton, often called one of the godfathers of AI, and Fei-Fei Li, considered one of AI’s godmothers—both played pioneering roles in shaping modern AI.
Then, major AI initiatives in China have brought in new power players. I remember being at the groundbreaking ceremony in 2016 for what they called “Future “ci-Tech City.” It was “designed to be a hub for emerging technologies, with dedicated AI and blockchain zones and massive investments in startup companies from around the world.
As a result, many influential AI figures don’t have names, but they’re the future of AI nonetheless. When we talk about power players, here are a few people who often fly under the radar:
- Omar Sultan Al Olama – Minister of AI, Digital Economy, and Remote Work Applications for the UAE. He’s one of the few government officials worldwide with AI as a direct portfolio.
- Madeline Bell is the CEO of ChildrenChildren’sl of Philadelphia (CHOP). She has been a major force in using AI for medical intelligence, particularly in pediatrics.
- Tara Lyons – Global Head of AI Policy at JPMorgan. Unlike the U.S.-centric approach to AI regulation, she focuses on international AI policy and how financial systems interact with AI globally.
- Kenichiro Yoshida is Sony’s CEO. He’s not only integrating AI across Sony’s lines but also rethinking how AI transforms the consumer experience.
Then you have governments making bold moves in AI:
- Singapore – They started major AI investments in 2016 after realizing how transformational AI would be.
- They launched workforce retraining programs for both current and future workers.
- They even set up public education initiatives to help consumers distinguish real AI from hype and make smarter decisions about buying AI-driven products and services.
And, of course, China has made AI a national priority:
- Xi Jinping—As President of China, he has embedded AI into the “Made in China 2025” strategy.
- He has directed massive investments into AI at provincial and national levels.
- The government has funded AI research hubs, infrastructure, and startup ecosystems, positioning China as a global AI superpower.
A lot is happening in AI, and while Altman, Musk, and Schmidt dominate the headlines, many other leaders worldwide are shaping the future of AI in meaningful ways.
Sahota: There’s HarshThere’ sn, the Minister of Health in India, and they’ve been working on raising the quality of rural hospitals to match urban hospitals. They have an incredible amount of data—over half a billion people—which they use to improve healthcare outcomes nationwide.
Jacobsen: Do you have any final thoughts based on our conversation today?
Sahota: It’s an interesting time, Scott. I wouldn’t dispute that.
It’s one of the tIt’s moments where, to borrow from Stan Lee and Spider-Man, “With great power comes great responsibility.” One of the “things I always emphasize is the three pillars of change: people, process, and technology.
When you change one, it triggers a shift in the other two. People are starting to realize that when they introduce AI tools into their workflows, they must also change their processes. This isn’t about it. It’s a new way of doing things. That’s the deThat’son of innovation.
However, the part where many people struggle is the people aspect. It’s not just training or retraining workers—it’s about changing our mindsets about how we think about and use these tools. A simple example is education.
We still teach using 19th-century techniques because they work well enough. But we now know there are better ways to wire our brains—through learning algorithms, cognitive science, and AI-driven teaching methods.
The problem is that we don’t leverage innovations because people think, “Why fix some thing that isn’t broken? Isn’t this “about isn’t something is broken? ” The real question is: Is there a better way of doing it? You can’t continue to improve a candle and expect to arrive at a light bulb.
To make that next leap, we must shift from reactive to proactive thinking. We need to anticipate uses and misuses before they happen—that’s why there are general concerns about AI and emerging technologies.
Jacobsen: Thank you so much for your time today.
Sahota: I hope it’s useful. I’m looking forward to seeing what you write. If I can ever help in the future, please let me know.
Jacobsen: I appreciate it, man. Thank you so much.
Sahota: You take care. Bye.
Jacobsen: All right. Have a good one.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/08
WalletHub’s 2025 study analyzed the best and worst states for working moms based on childcare, professional opportunities, and work-life balance, using 17 metrics from reputable sources like the U.S. Census Bureau and Bureau of Labor Statistics. Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island topped the list, offering high-quality childcare and supportive environments despite high costs. In contrast, states like Mississippi and Louisiana ranked low due to poor daycare quality and limited opportunities. The study highlights how structural supports like childcare are more impactful for working mothers than professional metrics alone, especially for single moms facing distinct challenges in balancing work and caregiving.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, this is Chip from WalletHub again.
Women now represent nearly half the U.S. workforce—about 47% as of 2025. That marks a dramatic shift from a century ago when their participation was significantly lower.
In 2024, 74% of mothers with children under 18 were active in the labour force. Despite this progress, working moms continue to face notable challenges. For instance, women earned an average of 85% of what men earned in 2024. Additionally, women held only 7.8% of CEO positions in S&P 500 companies as of 2024.
Many are familiar with Sheryl Sandberg’s Lean In movement, which gained prominence during her tenure at Facebook (now Meta). The movement encouraged women to pursue leadership roles and sparked widespread conversations about workplace equity.
Given these dynamics, WalletHub conducted a study to identify the best and worst states for working moms in 2025. We analyzed all 50 states and the District of Columbia across three key dimensions: childcare, professional opportunities, and work-life balance. Within these categories, we applied 17 metrics, including daycare quality, cost of childcare, women’s median salary, and the ratio of female to male executives. What’s the deal?
Chip Lupo: Our findings revealed a notable regional trend: New England states dominated the top rankings. Massachusetts secured the number one spot, followed by Connecticut at number two and Rhode Island at number three. These states stood out due to their high-quality childcare services, supportive parental leave policies, and strong professional opportunities for women.
Interestingly, while Rhode Island ranked third overall, it placed 19th in the professional opportunities category. This was primarily due to a lower median salary for women and a significant gender representation gap in various economic sectors.
Other top-performing regions included Maine, at number five, and the District of Columbia, at number four. These areas also excelled at providing supportive environments for working mothers.
The concentration of top-ranked states in the Northeast suggests that progressive policies and a focus on gender equity contribute significantly to better outcomes for working moms. This is a compelling insight into how regional approaches can impact the professional and personal lives of mothers across the country.
Jacobsen: Work-life balance is tied to critical professional opportunities. However, Massachusetts ranked number one in both work-life balance and childcare—two closely related areas. So, even though Massachusetts did not top the list of professional opportunities, it excelled in the other two categories.
Professional opportunities include factors like the gender pay gap, the ratio of female to male executives, and median women’s salaries. In contrast, work-life balance and childcare cover metrics such as daycare quality, childcare costs, pediatricians per capita, school system quality, parental leave policies, and women’s average commute time. In many ways, those two—work-life balance and childcare—are more directly connected to the daily well-being of working mothers than raw professional metrics.
It is almost as if those two categories act as structural supports—buttresses, if you will—for the overall health of working mothers, more so than just having access to a job or the nature and quality of that job. It also makes sense that childcare is weighted more heavily in the analysis. If a mother knows her children are in good hands, that is a significant stress reliever—probably one of the biggest.
Lupo: What I found interesting in the data is that among the top three states—Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island—Massachusetts ranked first, Rhode Island third, and Connecticut sixth in terms of daycare quality. However, all three states were also among the highest in terms of childcare costs.
Of course, these are states with a high cost of living and relatively high median household incomes, which may help offset some of the costs. Still, it’s notable: the best quality childcare comes at a price. But then again, many parents may be willing to pay more for better quality care if they know it will be a safe, enriching environment for their children. That peace of mind reduces stress significantly.
Another point worth discussing is that the data reflects the experience of working moms in general—not just single working mothers. So, when considering the additional burdens of single motherhood, there are likely differences that are not fully captured by this study. For example, in two-parent households, the partner’s support level varies: some are absent, others are present but uninvolved, and others are active participants in childcare and housework. Those differences matter but are difficult to quantify without a more targeted attitudinal survey.
Jacobsen: That nuance between single and partnered working mothers is crucial. The situation for a single mother—who may not have any support—is very different from that of a mother in a household with an actively engaged co-parent.
Lupo: I also reviewed the methodology and looked at the metric regarding the share of families living in poverty. That metric is likely impacted by household structure, but it is not broken down by marital or partnership status in this study. So, while it adds insight, it does not fully reflect the different layers of difficulty single moms may face.
Jacobsen: Now, when we refer to “families,” that does include single mothers with children aged 0 to 17. So, in the study context, that demographic is included.
: So then we expect significant differences among those four categories: single working moms, married working moms with a supportive partner, married working moms without a supportive partner and married working moms with a partner who is present but not contributing. That last one becomes a baseline for comparison.
Lupo: Depending on the situation, the priorities for each group would differ. For instance, if you’re a single working mom, work-life balance might be the top priority—ensuring you have enough time and flexibility to spend with your children.
After that, professional opportunities would also be critical. Equal pay becomes even more important when you’re the sole breadwinner. In fact, in some cases, single working moms may even require higher compensation just to maintain stability since there’s no second income to fall back on.
Jacobsen: That makes a lot of sense. Are there any areas we have not covered yet?
Lupo: Yes, Scott. I also wanted to examine the study’s bottom half of the rankings.
So, some of the lowest-ranked states for working moms in our analysis were New Mexico, Mississippi, Nevada, Alabama, and Louisiana. It is not that these are “bad” states in general, but in terms of support and conditions for working mothers, they ranked among the worst.
A key issue is the very low quality of daycare in several of these states. Many of them are located in the Deep South, with the exception of Nevada. These are predominantly lower-income states, which often translates into limited public funding for childcare infrastructure. That affects both access and quality.
On top of that, these states tend to be economically depressed overall, so even beyond childcare, there are fewer job opportunities—and even fewer paths to career advancement, especially for women.
Many of these states ranked in the 40s across nearly all three dimensions: childcare, professional opportunities, and work-life balance. For example, My home state of South Carolina came in at 46, sliding all the way down to 51 in some categories.
That’s consistent with broader social and economic patterns in the Deep South. Many of these states still hold on to more traditional gender roles, reflective of the nuclear family model standard in the 1950s and early 1960s. Cultural and structural changes still need to take root in those regions.
Jacobsen: How quickly do states move on to that kind of cultural change?
Lupo: Some move more quickly than others. However, this study clearly illustrates the disparity in progress. States that have invested in policy innovation, infrastructure, and gender equity are seeing better outcomes. Others are still catching up.
I mean, your blue states—especially many of the Northeastern states—tend to be more proactive regarding societal change. They are generally high-tax states, but in many cases, when it comes to childcare and the public school system—which was a key factor in evaluating childcare quality—those higher taxes may translate into stronger public services.
So, even though the cost of living is higher, many families see it as a worthwhile trade-off if the overall experience for their children is positive.
Jacobsen: Your data sources for this study included a broad range of institutions from the U.S. Census Bureau, Bureau of Labor Statistics, Child Care Aware of America, Equal Employment Opportunity Commission, the Council for Community and Economic Research, the Institute for Women’s Policy Research, the National Partnership for Women & Families, and the NEE Regulatory Research Center. WalletHub also conducted an analysis to synthesize the findings.
That is quite comprehensive. Could you give us a little more insight into the research methodology—mainly how you selected those sources and ensured the accuracy and reliability of the data?
Lupo: Sure. We try to place more weight on government-sourced data—like the Census Bureau, Bureau of Labor Statistics, and the EEOC—because they’re generally more consistent and publicly accountable. I do not personally compile the data, but I know there’s a vetting process involved when it comes to nonprofit sources, particularly when we evaluate their credibility and relevance.
The organizations we pull from are reputable and widely used in research and policy analysis.
Jacobsen: What about the weightings in the study? How much weight is each category given? Are there any parts you found particularly noteworthy in terms of their inclusion or influence on the final rankings?
Lupo: The weightings are pretty reasonable. Obviously, I’m not a working mom, but if I had to guess what matters most, I’d say childcare comes first. If a mother knows her child is in good hands during the workday, that peace of mind goes a long way.
The other categories—professional opportunities and work-life balance—are certainly important, but they tend to work themselves out once the major stressor of childcare is removed. Children do not need childcare forever, so over time, families can start placing greater focus on career growth and overall balance.
Jacobsen: That makes sense. And your top three states—Massachusetts, Connecticut, and Rhode Island—seem to strike that balance pretty effectively.
Lupo: No pun intended, but they manage to juggle all those priorities well. They’re providing quality childcare, a strong support infrastructure, and professional opportunities all at once.
Jacobsen: Is there anything else we should add before wrapping up?
Lupo: No, that covers it for today.
Jacobsen: Great.
Lupo: Fantastic. All right, Scott. Have a good weekend.
Jacobsen: All right. You take care. Thank you.
Lupo: Be good.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/08
Gary Zed is the Founder & CEO of Canada’s Forests Trust Corporation. Canada’s Forest Trust Corporation (CFTC) is a social enterprise focused on planting and managing forests to combat climate change and protect biodiversity. Partnering with organizations and youth groups, CFTC creates Smart Forests™, integrating traditional forest management with modern technology for carbon sequestration and ecological benefits. Their National Advisory Board includes experts in biodiversity, forestry, and education. CFTC’s climate and biodiversity goals emphasize long-term ecosystem sustainability and public engagement. Over the next five years, they plan to expand Smart Forests across Canada using a six-step process to plant, preserve, and protect millions of trees, fostering environmental stewardship nationwide.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is Canada’s Forest Trust Corporation (CFTC) and its mission?
Gary Zed: We are a social enterprise whose mission is planting forests in Canada, because it is good for nature and climate.
We work with leading Canadian organizations — from leading companies to national youth groups — to plant forests with their support. We work with these partners because we know that many Canadians, including employees and young people, want to play a part in taking action to protect nature and fight climate change.
Planting and managing forests brings many benefits, from sequestering carbon from the atmosphere, to habitat for animals to economic benefits to human well-being. Honestly, this has never mattered more than it does now.
Jacobsen: Why did the CFTC establish a National Advisory Board?
Zed: Well, no one can solve climate change or protect biodiversity alone. As CFTC has grown, it became clear to me that we need the best and brightest minds to advise us on a host of areas of expertise, including biodiversity, forestry, education, youth engagement, Indigenous partnerships, data, business, and climate adaptation. What’s more, trust and integrity are very important to us, and we make sure we always have leading experts advising us, especially in a world of greenwashing. We also want to expand our collective experience in various industries from insurance to retail to the auto sector.
We chose our advisors from all of these walks of life because we work at a crossroads between climate, nature, tech, youth, and business, and we are better able to work effectively when we have perspectives and talents from various sectors. I’m really honoured at the incredible group of advisors that have stepped up and joined us in our new National Advisory Board. Already they’ve rolled up their sleeves. As we look at these massive problems in front of us, there is a lot of work to get done.
Jacobsen: What are tech-enhanced nature-based solutions regarding forest planting and protection?
Zed: We take an innovative approach, by combining tried and true forest management techniques with modern technologies that provide in-depth data. We call this a Smart Forest™. A Smart Forest brings together nature’s wisdom and advanced technology.
We recognized that a forest is inherently smart and sophisticated, and they have evolved ways to renew and sustain themselves over millennia. The benefits of a healthy forest include a habitat for life and species to thrive, and many benefits for economic, environmental, and social well-being.
But we also have smart tools at our disposal in this day and age. Here’s where the tech enhanced part comes in: The effectiveness of a Smart Forest is shared with clients through cutting-edge digital dashboards, ensuring transparency and accountability for its impact, as well as reporting centres that provide on-demand access to downloadable forest impact reports.
Smart Forest is designed to store large carbon footprints, utilizing forest management techniques to maximize its ecological and climate impact.
We also collaborate with others, from Indigenous communities to experts in nature-based solutions, like the advisors on the National Advisory Board that I mentioned. This combination of nature’s wisdom, modern technology, and collaboration helps ensure the health of our forests — now and into the future.
Jacobsen: How will you involve youth groups in sustainability goals?
Zed: We have a history of working with youth across Canada through groups like Eco Schools. On our new National Advisory Board, we have experts in education like Michèle Andrews and Tam Matthews, who we lean on for expertise about engaging youth in climate and nature action. A number of our partners are national youth groups, who commit to planting trees. The youth who are involved with those groups can then feel a sense of connection to those forests through the digital dashboard.
One example I’m particularly proud of is our first Smart Forest location in New Brunswick’s endangered Acadian forest region. Through the support of School Smart Forest Stewards, we will restore 95 acres of previously devastated land, bring back biodiversity, clean air and water, and support the local economy. A big part of this project is community involvement. Schools across Canada are coming together to help reach the goal of 100,000 seedlings to fully restore this forest back to health. Participating in this can help young people learn more about the importance of biodiversity, climate change, and environmental stewardship.
Youth are so important to our philosophy that we are actually about to launch a new brand entirely dedicated to engaging Gen Z and Gen Alphas in Canada. We’re excited to share more about that soon.
Jacobsen: What are the climate and biodiversity objectives of the CFTC?
Zed: We see climate and biodiversity goals as intertwined, and forests as a powerful solution to multiple problems, including climate change and biodiversity loss. Nature and climate action are deeply interconnected, and planting forests can help with biodiversity, the well-being of species, and climate mitigation and adaptation.
One of our objectives is to sequester carbon. It is well-established that forests are proven to be effective at sequestering carbon.
The focus in environmental action has been on carbon, which is of course important, but we also know that climate and nature come hand-in-hand. That’s where our next objective comes in: supporting flourishing biodiversity while also fostering a host of biodiversity benefits, such as increased habitat for species.
A third objective is to prioritize the long-term health and sustainability of a forest for ecosystem health, habitat creation, the various benefits that come from climate change mitigation, and carbon storage — not just a flash in the pan, but for the indefinite future.
We also aim to support the democratization of nature. This means nature should be accessible to all, and we focus on connecting Canadians with information about how to help invest in and take care of nature.
Jacobsen: How will the CFTC grow millions of trees in healthy ecosystems in the next 5 years?
Zed: We are growing quickly, and our next step is to plant, preserve and protect Smart Forest ecosystems in regions across Canada. Over the next year, we will be in almost every province, and new projects will be stewarded in the next planting season.
As we set out to grow millions of trees in Canada over the next five years, we will use our 6-step approach to our Smart Forests.
The first step is to procure land. The second step is to prepare the land for planting. Step three is to plant the forest, including a diverse mix of native species. The fourth step is to preserve the trees that are planted. Step five is to protect the forest and the land. Finally, the sixth step is to promote nature-based solutions like planting forests, through education and inspiration.
We are proud to be at a point in our evolution when this approach is tried and tested, and that we can expand our impact. We are proud to plant and care for forests here in Canada, and we know that companies and organizations value our at-home approach, because they want to make a positive difference here.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Gary.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/07
The 2025 Canadian Tulip Festival blooms in Ottawa’s Commissioners Park from May 9–19, commemorating the 80th anniversary of the Liberation of the Netherlands. Co‑hosted by the Canadian Army, the free event showcases more than 300,000 tulips, themed walking tours, outdoor films, family activities, and Canada’s first hybrid drone‑and‑fireworks finale. The Official Opening Ceremony on Saturday, May 10 at 10:30 a.m. honours Second World War veterans, notably Honourary Lieutenant‑General Richard Rohmer, with military bands, a Remembrance Torch and a CF‑18 flypast. Princess Margriet’s envoy, Her Excellency Margriet Vonno, represents the Netherlands, underscoring the enduring Dutch‑Canadian friendship symbolized by the annual tulip gift.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we will discuss the 2025 Canadian Tulip Festival, which runs until May 19 in Ottawa. This year’s Festival commemorates 80 years since the Liberation of the Netherlands during the Second World War and is co-hosted by the Canadian Army.
The festival honours Second World War veterans, including Canada’s most decorated living veteran, Honourary Lieutenant-General Richard Rohmer. Princess Margriet of the Netherlands, born in Ottawa during the war, had to cancel her visit due to health reasons, but Her Excellency Margriet Vonno, the new Dutch Ambassador to Canada, will represent the Netherlands. Highlights include over 300,000 blooming tulips, a Victory Party, Canada’s first hybrid drone and fireworks show, themed tours, outdoor films, and family-friendly activities. Admission is free, and guided tours are available for $20 per person. The full Festival is May 9–19, but the Opening Ceremony is on Saturday, May 10, at 10:30 a.m. at Commissioners Park.
What does the Canadian Tulip Festival mean for Canadians for the 80th anniversary of the Liberation of the Netherlands? And what do the liberation and the tulip symbolize for Dutch Canadians?
Jo Riding: What we like to say is: what the poppy is to autumn and the First World War, the tulip is to spring and the Second World War. It’s very much a symbol of the sacrifice of over 7,600 Canadian soldiers, many of them young men, who gave their lives in the liberation of the Netherlands between 1944 and 1945.
Princess Juliana of the Netherlands sent the original tulip gift in the fall of 1945, shortly after her return from exile in Canada. She had lived in Ottawa from 1940 to 1945 with her two daughters—and later gave birth to a third, Princess Margriet, in January 1943 at the Civic Hospital in Ottawa. Canada temporarily declared the hospital room extraterritorial to ensure her child had only Dutch citizenship.
As an expression of gratitude, Princess Juliana sent 100,000 tulip bulbs to Canada and promised an annual gift. This has continued every year since—10,000 bulbs from the Dutch royal family and 20,000 from the Dutch Bulb Growers Association, totalling 30,000 bulbs annually to this day. That annual gesture is such a powerful symbol of friendship.
Canada and the Netherlands have developed a deep, enduring friendship rooted in these wartime ties. There are about 1 million people of Dutch descent in Canada, many descendants of Dutch war brides who fell in love with Canadian soldiers during the liberation and immigrated to Canada after the war, often landing in Halifax and then travelling across the country by train.
And the stories go both ways, right? Canada left a legacy in the Netherlands, too? It’s estimated that between 4,000 and 7,000 “liberation children”—children fathered by Canadian soldiers—were born in the Netherlands after the war. Many were raised by single Dutch mothers in postwar Europe, often under challenging circumstances. So when Canada liberated the Netherlands, our soldiers became heroes of a nation and symbols of hope and new beginnings. For many Dutch women, Canada represented a future free from war and hardship—a land where they could start over, raise families, and build lives with the men who helped liberate their homeland.
Jacobsen: The story has many layers, including mixed reactions from those who lived it. On the other hand, after about a year of Canadian presence, the Dutchmen said things like, “Please liberate us from our liberators.” It was difficult for them to compete with the young, healthy Canadians from the West, especially compared to the war-weary and undernourished Dutch population at the time.
Canada played a very special role—not only in the liberation but in the post-war rebuilding. We stayed on longer than any other Allied force to help with reconstruction. We were also key players in the Battle of the Scheldt, a major offensive that cleared access to the Port of Antwerp, critical for moving supplies inland to Allied forces.
To this day, I meet people in the park who are connected to every facet of the story. Some are children who received food from Canadian air drops during Operation Manna—the most significant humanitarian effort of the war. Others are descendants of the Dutch resistance or, like myself, descendants of Canadian liberators.
My grandfather, George Riding, fought in the Battle of the Scheldt. I’ve met war brides, veterans, and families from all sides of this history. What is truly remarkable is that the Dutch do not forget.
In the Netherlands, people know the names of our soldiers. They name parks, schools, and streets after them. Here in Canada, we often struggle to recall their names. That’s why our work is essential—especially as the generations change—to remember these stories and sacrifices.
This Festival is about more than tulips. It’s a commemorative celebration of sacrifice, friendship, and the enduring importance of international cooperation.
Jacobsen: How is the coordination with the Canadian Army going this year as co-hosts?
Riding: We’re thrilled to be co-hosting with the Canadian Army. Major-General J.W. Errington will join me as co-host for the opening ceremony. The Canadian Armed Forces Central Band will lead our parade, and we will open with the Canadian Remembrance Torch, carried by Army Cadets. That symbolic passing of the torch from one generation to the next is very powerful.
We will also have a cannon salute and anticipate a CF-18 flypast to open the Festival with honour and energy. The Army will have an information booth onsite, where visitors can learn about the modern Canadian Armed Forces, career opportunities, and community engagement.
They will also be part of our grand finale, which features Canada’s first hybrid drone and a fireworks show centred on liberation.
Last year, we partnered with the Royal Canadian Air Force to celebrate their 100th anniversary and tell the story of Operation Manna, where Canadian bombers dropped food to starving Dutch civilians.
The year before that, we marked 100 years of the Naval Reserve—Canada’s citizen sailors—and told the story of the Battle of the Atlantic, the most extended continuous battle of any war, not just WWII. It ran from the first day of the war to the last.
This year, we are highlighting the stories of several Second World War veterans, focusing on Honorary Lieutenant-General Richard Rohmer, Canada’s most decorated living veteran. We’ve adapted his memoirs into a script for our Tulip Legacy Walking Tour, which adds a personal and theatrical dimension to our storytelling.
Jacobsen: And you’ll also meet a few other characters—folks who returned from the war and one who lived right beside the festival site but, sadly, did not make it back. Why are those individual stories important to the Festival’s message?
Riding: We tell these poignant stories because we want people to see the tulips the way we do—as a living tribute. Each bloom represents someone’s brother, father, husband, or son. It’s essential to frame remembrance that way—to give the numbers a human face.
Jacobsen: Can you elaborate a little on the Tulip Legacy Walking Tour?
Riding: We typically run the Tulip Legacy Walking Tour each year, but we’ve created a special Liberation 80 Edition this time. It’s a theatrical experience. The tour is set in 1946, the first spring after the war, when the tulips bloomed in Commissioners Park for the very first time.
Your guide, dressed in period clothing, will explain the location’s historical significance and provide details about the varieties of tulips in the gardens. Along the way, you will meet characters based on real people.
One is a young Pilot Officer, Richard Rohmer, who was only 22 years old at the war’s end. At that point, he was already talking about retirement—though clearly, that didn’t stick. His postwar service is legendary.
The next character is my grandfather, George Riding, who fought in the Battle of the Scheldt and at the Leopold Canal. He served in the Royal Montreal Regiment’s machine gun unit. Grandpa George made it home, but he suffered from what was then called shell shock—what we now understand as PTSD—until he passed in 1980. He used to say it was his life’s best and worst times.
Finally, visitors meet Thomas Emmett Clark, a young man who lives beside the festival site. He grew up on Matapaska Avenue—you can see his childhood home from one tour stop. We read a letter from him. He was part of the First Canadian Army and died on April 16, 1945, just two weeks before the war ended.
This is very much grounded in the geography and memory of the neighbourhood itself. These stories come from a project called “A Neighbourhood Sacrifice,” which is still available on our website. It’s a digital mapping of The Glebe, the neighbourhood beside the Festival. Are you familiar with Ottawa?
So, to Torontonians—where I’m from—I compare it to The Annex. It’s one of those older residential neighbourhoods with century-old houses, tree-lined streets, and deep community roots.
In The Glebe alone, 473 young men enlisted and didn’t come back. Can you imagine the emotional tension in a neighbourhood like that? If someone received mail, you didn’t even want to ask what it was. People were walking on eggshells—not knowing who had just lost someone or who was about to. And if that happened in just one neighbourhood, imagine what the rest of the country felt.
That kind of granular storytelling relieves the historical sacrifice—that’s the goal. When you say, “7,600 Canadians died liberating the Netherlands,” it’s abstract. But when you say, “Thomas Emmett Clark, from that house right there, died two weeks before the war ended,” it becomes intensely personal. It brings humanity and immediacy to remembrance—and that’s essential.
Jacobsen: On the media side as well, it’s powerful. Giving someone a name and a face changes the narrative from statistics to story.
Riding: That’s the whole point. These are big numbers we talk about. It’s easy to let it roll off the tongue—”Oh, we lost a thousand here and a thousand there.” But when you stop to think about it, each one of those people left behind families, friends, and communities. The ripple effect—the circle of grief—widens dramatically.
There isn’t any one of us who doesn’t feel the impact, even now, nearly eighty years later, of what the Nazis inflicted on the world. And yet, in the broader sweep of history, eighty years of largely sustained peace—especially in Europe—is extremely rare.
Jacobsen: That’s true. The only historical comparison that comes to mind is Pax Romana, the Roman Peace. But of course, that was only because Rome conquered and controlled everything, so there wasn’t anyone left to fight. The last time the world had such a universal cease in major conflict—at least in recorded history—was around 50 BC, during the height of Roman power. But that was more of a peace through domination than anything else.
That raises interesting questions about how we frame Peace. People often talk about the just war theory, which is valid and, by extension, unjust war as well. But very few talk about just Peace or unjust Peace. A peace imposed by an empire—like Rome’s—can be seen as unfair because it lacked freedom or autonomy.
Canada, on the other hand, doesn’t dominate the world. We’re a nation in good standing, trying to uphold peace and partnership on the world stage. That makes our current peace just as it gets—not through conquest but cooperation.
Riding: That’s a great way to frame it. And the Dutch-Canadian relationship is a perfect example of that respectful, reciprocal peace. The Dutch have shown their gratitude in incredible ways over the years.
Jacobsen: Especially on the West Coast, you’ll notice many agricultural and horticultural businesses with names like “Van Something.” Many Dutch immigrants brought their skills and innovation with them after the war. They made enormous contributions to Canada’s farming and greenhouse sectors.
Riding: Yes, they did. The Netherlands is one of the most agriculturally efficient countries on Earth. They feed a considerable portion of Europe and do it with just 3% of Canada’s land. They pioneered vertical farming, and their accomplishments in sustainable agriculture are astonishing.
When you compare that to what we’re doing here, you realize how much land we’re underutilizing or wasting. So, those transatlantic partnerships—they’re not just symbolic. They’re still economically and technologically relevant. We do make excellent partners, both historically and today.
Jacobsen: I’m smiling hearing all this—it’s music to my ears. I’m Dutch-Canadian, so it hits home for me.
Riding: That’s wonderful to hear. It’s so meaningful to meet people with that shared heritage on both sides. I visited the Netherlands this past October for the World Tulip Summit. It’s where all the tulip festivals from around the world come together to share ideas and celebrate our shared floral history.
Jacobsen: You recently visited the Netherlands. Were you able to explore any of the commemorative sites while there?
Riding: I did, yes. I visited Princess Margriet in the royal city of Apeldoorn while there because how often do I get to go over it? And in Ottawa, there’s a statue called “The Man with Two Hats.” Many people don’t know that in Apeldoorn, there’s an identical statue—also called “The Man with Two Hats.”
They face each other across the ocean. Our version is in Ottawa, and theirs is in Apeldoorn. The statues are symbolic, representing friendship, gratitude, and shared history.
Before I left Apeldoorn, I told my driver, “I want to go see the statue here before we leave.” When we arrived, flowers covered the ground—within 10 feet all around the monument. Still, after all these years, it gave me chills.
And while I was standing there asking my driver to take a photo, an older man came over—he was 95 years old. He had been there when the Canadians liberated the city. He asked my driver what I was doing, and when he found out who I was and that I was Canadian, he burst into tears. He came up to hug me and said how grateful he was to finally thank a Canadian in person for freeing his city. He told me he visits the statue every single day.
Jacobsen: That’s incredibly moving. And here in Ottawa?
Riding: Most people don’t even know the statue exists in Ottawa. In the Netherlands, it’s adorned with flowers and daily visitors. It’s a different experience. Canadians were never occupied. We don’t know what it’s like to have bloodshed in our streets the way they did.
While I was there, I also visited the Anne Frank House. The house itself was emotional, of course. But what struck me even more was outside, looking at the pavement stones—realizing those are the same stones that were there during the occupation. That’s where people walked. That’s where some were asked to kneel before being shot. That’s where people died.
It’s no wonder the Dutch have a profound reverence for what Canada did. Their feeling toward us is rooted in lived experience and national trauma. Canadians, by contrast, are often self-effacing, modest, and unaware of the full extent of our role.
Jacobsen: Much of the global media focuses on the American narrative, right?
Riding: Yes. The Americans did a far better publicizing their efforts, primarily through Hollywood. That has shaped public consciousness. Many Canadians still don’t know what we did for the Dutch.
Even when The Forgotten Battle movie came out, I was excited. I thought, “Finally, a film about us!”—about Canadian soldiers at the Battle of the Scheldt. But it was still told through a very American lens. So, our veterans and national efforts often remain underappreciated at home and abroad.
Jacobsen: Let’s switch gears a bit—what do you think about the hybrid drone-fireworks show? That’s a significant innovation this year.
Riding: I am so stoked! Seriously. This is my seventh edition of the Festival, and we’ve experimented with many different things.
In my first year, we had traditional fireworks tied to our Victoria Day celebrations. Then came COVID, and we spent two years doing everything virtually. That meant no outdoor shows, but we had much fun with online storytelling, digital exhibits, and virtual tulip experiences. Still, nothing beats that in-person moment of communal awe.
Now, with this year’s hybrid drone and fireworks show, we’re stepping into the future of commemorative celebration. It’s modern, more environmentally friendly, and thematically rich. The show tells a story of liberation through coordinated lights, sound, and sky choreography.
Jacobsen: In 2022, fireworks returned at the Festival after COVID but weren’t without criticism. What changes have you made since then?
Riding: Yes, in 2022, we brought back traditional fireworks and received a fair bit of pushback from the community. Concerns were raised about ecological impact and noise pollution, especially for people with PTSD—and animals too. I mean, I had to go home and apologize to my dog! She was hiding in the basement when I got back from the show.
So, in 2024, we paused and did a complete drone show. The response was mixed. Some people loved it—they appreciated the quiet, the storytelling, and the lower environmental impact. Others felt it was just a light in the sky—they missed the drama and the big boom of fireworks.
Drone shows also have limitations. To get the full visual effect, you must be within about 80 degrees of the viewing angle. Fireworks, by contrast, can be seen 360 degrees—look up.
So, this year, we worked with our pyrotechnics and drone suppliers to find a solution. We’ve come up with a hybrid show. This format allows us to keep the drama of fireworks while limiting the volume and duration to reduce noise and ecological pollution. The drone portion will enable us to tell a story—in this case, the story of the Liberation of the Netherlands—through coordinated lights and choreography.
We know we can’t please everyone, but we’re hopeful this hybrid solution will strike the right balance. It starts with fireworks, moves into a narrative-driven drone show, and finishes with a final fireworks celebration.
Jacobsen: That sounds like a thoughtful solution. Now, I heard there’s something called Pilates in Petals.
Riding: Yes! We’ve got Pilates in Petals and also a Fun Run. We know the mental health benefits of being in a garden are huge. Combine that with physical movement in a wide-open space, and you have a recipe for real stress relief.
A little guided stretching or a light-hearted jog can do wonders in these anxious times. That’s what this is about—joyful, accessible well-being in the middle of natural beauty. We see tens of thousands of smiling faces in the park each year, so it made sense to deepen that connection.
Jacobsen: What else is new this year?
Riding: We’ve got our brand new Big Bug Boardwalk!
Jacobsen: What is that?
Riding: It is a whimsical evolution of a project we first did in 2022 called the Blacklight Boardwalk. Here’s how it started: We were photographing tulips one evening, and I happened to have some blacklight gear with me. We noticed that pollen inside a tulip glows under UV light. That led us down a rabbit hole—pollinators like bees and butterflies see in the UV spectrum, and the glowing pollen is how they find their way from flower to flower.
Jacobsen: That is genuinely fascinating.
Riding: Right? So we thought—why not let humans see that, too? We installed UV blacklights along an 800-meter Dow’s Lake boardwalk stretch beside Commissioners Park. We raised about 2,000–3,000 tulips, illuminated them, and added educational signage about pollinators, bee safety, and why we should all be nicer to the bees. They’re just trying to do their jobs!
The boardwalk experience became incredibly popular, and we ran it in 2022, 2023, and 2024. But I like to refresh installations every three years, and we’re introducing the Big Bug Board this year. It keeps the glowing garden concept but adds more whimsy and interactivity—especially for families.
You can expect giant bees, butterflies, ladybugs, and interactive leaves along the Big Bug Boardwalk. And once again, we’ll have a bilingual soundtrack that explains what you’re seeing and why pollinators matter.
We believe in passive education through entertainment—you’re having a great time, enjoying a beautiful visual experience, and leaving having learned something. That’s the goal.
This is essentially a ramped-up, whimsical version of our Blacklight Boardwalk—with big, glowing bugs! It’s going to be a lot of fun. It got a great reception at the World Tulip Summit. It was very popular. I had several countries ask if they could borrow or replicate the idea. And I said, Of course you can! I suspect we’ll see UV gardens popping up in festivals worldwide. That’s always exciting—to see something you created become a global trend.
Jacobsen: Is there anything else you’d like to include? A favourite quote or key message you return to?
Riding: Definitely. One quote I always return to comes from Malak Karsh, the renowned photographer and founder of the Festival. He said, “The tulips brought colour back to a very grey world after the war.” That is still relevant. We deeply understood that message when we took over the Festival during the COVID year. No matter what’s happening—a pandemic, a trade war, hyperinflation, or worse—the tulips still come. They reliably and beautifully bring colour and joy to the world.
I often say there are three things you can count on: death, taxes, and tulips.
They are incredibly resilient flowers. They originated as wildflowers in the Himalayan Mountains, so they know adversity. They survive harsh Canadian winters and thrive through humid summers, which is what makes them such powerful symbols.
You plant them in the fall. You hope for the best. And then, come spring, no matter the weather—they rise. Nothing stops a tulip from doing what it was meant to: bloom. People worry every late spring, early spring, warm or cold spell. But you don’t have to. Tulips always come back.
Jacobsen: That’s a beautiful metaphor—and a comforting one.
Riding: Thank you. One of the messages we try to get across is that we’re not the city, the National Capital Commission, or Canadian Heritage. We’re none of those. We are a small charity doing a tremendous job. The National Capital Commission (NCC) plants the tulips. We celebrate them.
The Festival’s role is to provide the commemoration, storytelling, and infrastructure to safely welcome nearly half a million visitors. The NCC has been planting and maintaining these tulips for 80 years.
There’s even a great story: when the first tulips arrived, the NCC wanted to plant them on Parliament Hill. But Prime Minister Mackenzie King objected. He felt tulips wouldn’t suit the Gothic architecture and the Victorian garden style of the Hill.
The NCC went ahead and planted them anyway. And when they bloomed? He loved them. He was so taken with their beauty, he ordered they be planted every year thereafter.
We thank the NCC for maintaining this incredible legacy and are proud to work so closely with them to present this national story of sacrifice, friendship, and renewal every year.
Jacobsen: Jo, thank you very much for your time today. It was an absolute pleasure to discuss the Festival with you.
Riding: The pleasure was all mine—thank you! Now I’m off back to Merchandiseville.
Jacobsen: Enjoy your next thousand tulips!
Riding: [Laughing] Keep counting!
Jacobsen: Okay. Thank you. Bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/07
Dr. Javad Sajan is a Seattle-based plastic surgeon specializing in cosmetic and reconstructive procedures for the face and body. He is the founder of Allure Esthetic, where he offers services including breast augmentation, tummy tucks, rhinoplasty, and gender-affirming surgeries such as FTM top surgery and facial feminization. Sajan highlighted several challenges transgender patients face in accessing gender-affirming healthcare. Key issues include limited insurance coverage and a scarcity of experienced providers. Additionally, not all surgeons offer the full spectrum of gender-affirming surgeries, necessitating patients to seek multiple specialists. Regional disparities significantly impact access; for instance, while Washington mandates insurance coverage for such procedures, other states lack comprehensive policies, leading to potential travel burdens for patients.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What are the primary challenges transgender patients face in trying to get gender-affirming healthcare?
Dr. Javad Sajan: Insurance coverage and finding providers with adequate experience. Also, not all surgeons who perform gender-affirming procedures perform all gender affirming surgeries (for example, someone may only perform top surgery or only bottom surgery).
Jacobsen: Do these challenges differ by region?
Sajan: Absolutely, especially in today’s political climate. Even though gender affirming care for adults is technically accessible in all states, it may still involve significant travel, and patients deserve to have the choice between providers. While Washington (where I practice) requires insurance to cover gender-affirming procedures, this is not always full encompassing, and not everyone who needs gender-affirming surgery will qualify. Several other states do not have any requirements or procedures concerning insurance coverage for gender affirmation.
Jacobsen: What legal protections exist–and do not and need to exist–for transgender individuals to access reasonable levels of gender-affirming procedures?
Sajan: It varies widely by state. However, the process should be led by the patient and their medical team without legal or major financial barriers.
Jacobsen: What are the typical arguments against provisions of gender-affirming procedures of varying levels of evidence and reasonableness?
Sajan: Many argue that people may regret their gender affirming surgery or that they actually just need mental health treatment. All surgeries have some level of regret associated with them, and gender-affirming surgeries notably have a low regret rate among all surgeries. Additionally, many providers do require a letter of support from a mental health professional, and most surgeons will do their own evaluations of the patient’s mental stability.
Jacobsen: How have healthcare policies met the needs of transgender patients?
Sajan: In states where gender affirming care must be at least partially covered by insurance, this has helped many patients access care. However, there is still a long way to go.
Jacobsen: Do insurance coverage and healthcare funding impact patients’ odds of attaining gender-affirming surgeries?
Sajan: Yes, significantly.
Jacobsen: What are the immediate direct effects of the current social and political climate on gender-affirming care, i.e., equitability, accessibility, quality of care, etc.?
Sajan: Many patients feel more hesitant to seek care that would improve their quality of life (and in some cases, save their life). It also leads to unqualified providers or non-medical professionals offering treatments that can increase complications and make what are safe, well-tolerated procedures much riskier.
Jacobsen: What technical innovations or policy changes could enhance the quality and accessibility of transgender healthcare?
Sajan: Insurance coverage seems like the natural first step. Education for providers on gender affirming care and how best to support patients would also help improve this. Finding ways to reduce scarring, especially after FTM top surgery, would also improve the quality of the results and likely make the procedure less invasive. Most patients do not qualify for the current scar reduction surgical techniques regularly performed.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Dr. Sajan.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/06
Irina Tsukerman, a New York-based human rights and national security attorney, examines how age-old antisemitic tropes are repurposed into modern conspiracy theories, blending medieval myths with contemporary fears of technology and global control. She discusses a range of absurd claims—from the notion of “Jewish space lasers” allegedly used to trigger wildfires to theories that the Rothschild family secretly owns the moon or that Jewish elites control the Internet, AI, and even reincarnation to maintain eternal power. These narratives explain, recycle and distort historical conspiracies, such as the blood libel and secret societies like the Illuminati and Freemasons, repackaging them with sci-fi elements like reptilian shapeshifters and occult mysteries. The speakers note that such theories rely on psychological projection—a tactic historically employed by Soviet and Nazi regimes to deflect blame—and have been amplified by social media and state-sponsored disinformation. They also highlight how far-right Christian and New Age conspiracies merge religious eschatology with pseudoscience to depict Jews as malevolent orchestrators of global events despite overwhelming evidence that modern technologies, including cryptocurrencies and blockchain, are decentralized and untraceable. While acknowledging the inherent absurdity and lack of evidence in these claims, Jacobsen and Tsukerman stress that the normalization of such narratives is dangerous because it fuels hatred radicalizes vulnerable individuals and undermines genuine public discourse. Ultimately, they warn that repackaged antisemitic myths not only distort Jewish identity and history but also contribute to a polarized society prone to real-world violence and systemic discrimination.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Irina Tsukerman is a New York-based human rights and national security attorney specializing in international law, media strategy, and information warfare. She is the editor-in-chief of The Washington Outsider, providing insights on global affairs and advocating for human rights. Her expertise spans the Middle East, Africa, Eastern Europe, and Latin America. She is also a board member of the Washington Outsider Center for Information Warfare, which aims to educate the public about information warfare and build resilience against foreign malign influence.
As you may recall, there’s a comedian and comedic actor named Mike Myers who had a series of movies called Austin Powers, featuring the character Austin Danger Powers. His nemesis in the movie was Dr. Evil, who wanted sharks with laser beams on their heads. Eventually, this was going to lead to a space laser. A common trope in some conspiracy theories about Jewish people involves space lasers and so on. But how did this even become a theory?
Irina Tsukerman: The phrase “Jewish space lasers” was popularized in 2021 due to a widely criticized social media post by U.S. Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene, who suggested that wildfires in California were started by a space-based laser linked to Jewish banking interests. However, humorous references to space lasers existed before, with figures like Mel Brooks using exaggerated science-fiction tropes in comedy. The idea always meant satire, but some people clearly don’t understand the difference between humour, satire, parody, and reality.
Jacobsen: Now, let’s see. What about cases we haven’t discussed? This is funny. This is a much deeper well than I ever thought. How about intra-ethnic feuding? Some Sephardim are prejudiced toward Ashkenazim, some Ashkenazim are prejudiced toward Mizrahim, and so on.
Does that happen? What issues are brought up?
Tsukerman: There are many different issues. First of all, there are religious divides between super-secular, Reconstructionist, or Reform Jews and more religious elements, such as Orthodox and ultra-Orthodox communities. People on opposite ends of the religious spectrum sometimes look down on each other.
There is also an attitude where anyone more religious than me is a fanatic, and anyone less religious than me is an apostate or heretic. This dynamic is not unique to Judaism, but it does exist.
Another issue is that, yes, there have been prejudices and ethnocentric attitudes among different Jewish communities. There isn’t a broad standoff between Ashkenazim and Sephardim. Still, historically, in places where Ashkenazim have been the majority, they have sometimes viewed their traditions as normative. At the same time, those of Sephardim and Mizrahim have been marginalized.
For example, during the Holocaust, Greek, Romaniote, and Sephardic Jews were deported to Nazi concentration camps. Some Ashkenazi Jews initially did not recognize them as Jewish because they did not speak Yiddish and had different cultural practices.
Similarly, in Israel’s early years, Ashkenazi Jews, particularly those from socialist backgrounds in Eastern Europe, dominated the government and institutions, leading to systemic discrimination against Sephardic and Mizrahi Jews in areas such as housing, education, and employment. Over time, these divisions have diminished, but tensions and disparities still exist in some aspects of society.
And when waves of Sephardic Jews from the Arab world and other regions arrived, they were often sent to peripheral towns that were underdeveloped or placed in poorly equipped refugee camps until those towns were built. They were treated as second-class citizens due to prevalent racism and cultural chauvinism.
Many Moroccan Jews who immigrated were highly educated and cultured, and they took offence to this treatment because they did not consider themselves any less educated than the European Jews. It became a cultural clash. Unfortunately, many Western and Eastern European Jews absorbed the stereotypes that were already prevalent in their respective societies. This dynamic was less about Jewish identity and the cultural environments in which these groups had been raised.
First, anyone who is different is often viewed through the lens of cultural otherness. The Sephardic Jews, for instance, did not particularly care for Ashkenazi food. There was a reason for this—much of Ashkenazi cuisine developed in impoverished areas where Jews were forced to live in ghettos and the Pale of Settlement, making do with whatever scraps were available. In contrast, many Sephardic Jews lived in elite societies and developed sophisticated culinary traditions.
This resulted in a reverse cultural standoff, some of which persists today, though to a much lesser extent. Israel has become significantly more integrated. Sephardic culture has gained mainstream acceptance and is now considered fashionable. Many modern social trends, particularly those influenced by intersectionality, have embraced elements of Sephardic identity.
Cultural breakthroughs have helped dismantle many of these barriers, but there was also a history of cultural isolation. For instance, Syrian Jews traditionally refused to marry outside their community and often did not accept converts to Judaism despite Jewish law prohibiting discrimination against converts. In some cases, they would even avoid marrying fellow Syrian Jews if they were from a different city. This intense insularity shaped marital and social trends.
However, that did not mean they were completely isolated. They conducted business with Jews from other backgrounds and with non-Jews throughout history. Still, these social divisions had lasting effects on relationships and integration.
Many of these cultural divisions have existed, and some still persist. There are remnants of Ashkenazi dominance in certain Jewish organizations and parts of Israeli society and infrastructure. However, with increased cultural fusion and integration, these divisions have significantly lessened over time. More Jews are migrating between the U.S. and Israel, further blending traditions and identities.
As Jews are now living together in shared spaces, they are naturally adapting and mixing. In Israel, they serve together in the military, work side by side, and intermarry more frequently. They are learning from each other’s cultures, sometimes in creative ways, while also striving to preserve their unique traditions.
Many of these historical tensions are fading. While efforts are still needed to overcome them fully, the situation has improved considerably.
Jacobsen: What about intersectionality? This is typically a concept based on feminist analysis and theorization. That framework is used to identify cross-points between two or more social identities or forms of oppression.
So, what about cases where the issue is not intra-ethnic but rather related to feminist or so-called woke movements? In some instances, these movements propose something that appears benevolent but, in practice, leads to regressive and even antisemitic outcomes.
Tsukerman: Essentially, the intersectional Jewish feminist movement was quite prominent toward the end of the 20th century. However, with the rise of the BDS movement and the resurgence of anti-Israel and anti-Zionist narratives in academia, the movement’s trajectory changed. Whatever its original intent, the movement, in its final iteration, became structured around a hierarchy of victimhood.
Within this structure, Jewish and pro-Israel participants—regardless of their feminist identities or other affiliations—found themselves at the bottom of the hierarchy. Many Jewish feminists were frozen out of the movement, ignored, or dismissed—particularly in the aftermath of the October 7th attacks. At that moment, many felt deeply dehumanized by their peers, who refused to condemn the mass rapes, massacres, abductions, and torture that had occurred.
The justification given was that the victims were Israeli women. Some activists viewed their suffering as secondary due to their opposition to the Israeli government or because they had come to accept the narrative that Israel is an apartheid state. But even if that were true, does that justify dehumanizing innocent civilians? Even if one assumes that the Israeli government is authoritarian, would the same logic apply to victims of sexual violence or murder in China, Iran, or Russia? Would people refuse to have compassion for them simply because they lived under an oppressive regime?
This attitude created a deep rift within the movement. The Jewish women who remained within the intersectional feminist structure had to suppress their Jewish identity—and certainly any pro-Israel views—to stay accepted. Others either formed their separate movements, which were more inclusive of Jewish identity, or abandoned intersectionality altogether to focus on their identity as Jewish women or pro-Israel advocates rather than feminists.
The mainstream of these intersectional feminist movements failed to step up when it mattered most. I’m not sure what the future holds for these movements. Still, unless they critically examine how political biases and stereotypes have overtaken their original mission of empowering women, they cannot remain successful. If they do not give voice to victims of international terrorism, authoritarianism, and patriarchy—regardless of nationality—their credibility is at risk.
Jacobsen: The rise of antisemitism in Canada is evident in the hate crime statistics. If you look at the data from Statistics Canada, it is clear. Among reported and verified hate crimes, the three most common are antisemitic, anti-Catholic, and anti-Muslim incidents. However, by far, the number one category—without comparison—is antisemitic hate crime. Atheists and secular types seem to take it on a chin or don’t have a report category.
In the United States, I assume the situation is similar. As far as I know, antisemitism is also rising in other countries. In some places, it remains at persistently high levels. What is your take on this?
Tsukerman: In some European countries, antisemitism has been a longstanding issue due to poor social integration. However, the contributing factors in the United States are slightly different, and multiple elements have fueled the increase.
I’ve mentioned some of them, such as the amplification of conspiracy theories through social media and the role of foreign state influence. Another factor is the rise of discourse theory and extreme identity politics, which began in academia with the oppressor-oppressed framework and has since permeated soft power institutions, shaping media coverage, educational policies, and public discourse.
You also have embedded organizations, such as CAIR (Council on American-Islamic Relations) and others, that have shifted their messaging to push narratives that include antisemitic elements. Even within governance, you see this influence—for example, the California ethnic studies curriculum, which was put on pause due to lawsuits over its antisemitic content.
Foreign state funding has also played a role in public K-12 education, not just in higher academia. For instance, Qatar has been involved in spreading educational materials in American public schools that exclude Israel from maps, essentially erasing its existence.
Another issue is that many teachers are either not well-educated on these topics or are hesitant to take clear positions for fear of jeopardizing their careers. This has allowed antisemitic narratives to spread through teachers’ unions, administrators, and within the broader education system. Many educators have been miseducated with the same extreme oppressor-oppressed ideology, which has taken precedence over critical thinking, rigorous academic pedagogy, and balanced historical perspectives.
The combination of all these factors has created an institutional foundation for antisemitism to persist and spread. People who are less educated and more inclined toward conspiracy theories tend to embrace antisemitic stereotypes as an anti-establishment stance. Meanwhile, those who align more with institutional authority often adopt these same stereotypes because they are reinforced by the authoritative sources they trust.
Because they tend not to question authority, both sides—those who trust establishment narratives and those who rely on alternative sources—often adopt positions they might not have reached independently. Instead, they accept what someone they view as an authority tells them, even if that authority is not part of the traditional establishment.
This ultimately results in a deterioration of critical thinking, humanistic values, and individual agency. Instead of judging people as individuals, there is an increasing tendency to generalize entire groups.
There is also a growing stigma surrounding the exploitation of political conflicts—such as those between Israel and Hamas—when these conflicts are imported into the United States and other Western societies. These tensions are being fought on local grounds, and Jewish and pro-Jewish students are often less prepared to respond. In contrast, antisemitic groups tend to be better organized.
This disparity in preparedness includes differences in emotional resilience, resources, organizational structure, and willingness to challenge the status quo without fear of consequences, such as expulsion, career setbacks, or legal repercussions. There is also a significant attitude gap between these groups.
Another issue is the false dichotomy that one must be either pro-Israel or pro-Palestinian. The pro-Palestinian position is often framed as aligned with governance and mainstream culture rather than as a general wish for peaceful coexistence. This framing ignores the possibility that addressing the extreme levels of aggression in society might require dismantling certain political structures that perpetuate conflict.
The complexity of the discourse has been lost due to a broader trend toward oversimplification, not just on this issue but in political discussions overall. People are increasingly forced into rigid ideological categories—socially, politically, religiously, and ethnically—without room for nuance.
What about people from multi-religious households? What about those who practice multiple philosophies or are multi-ethnic and have diverse backgrounds? What about individuals who reject such categorizations entirely? Even they are forced into binary ideological positions because of extreme polarization.
Despite the clear increase in antisemitic incidents, there remains a tendency not to take antisemitism seriously. Some groups actively downplay its significance, arguing that Jews are exaggerating the issue. Others attempt to minimize Holocaust denial or dismiss extreme levels of antisemitism as something other than antisemitism itself.
There are also divisions within Jewish communities regarding how to address antisemitism. Some groups ignore antisemitism when it comes from political factions they support, creating a politically polarized and fragmented approach to recognizing and combating it.
This polarization undermines efforts to form a unified stance on what antisemitism is, how to recognize it, and how to respond.
Additionally, there is a tendency—driven by political correctness and the assumption that Jewish communities are generally law-abiding and non-disruptive—not to prioritize antisemitism as a serious issue. Since Jews are less likely to engage in violent protests or disruptive actions against authorities or other social groups, there is often less pressure on institutions to address their concerns.
Meanwhile, if antisemitic groups act aggressively, there is a widespread reluctance to confront them. No one wants to take the risk of pushing back against these movements’ more radical and confrontational elements.
There is a tendency to overlook the Jewish community because, ultimately, what are they going to do about it? They might go to their representatives in Congress and lobby, hold a peaceful demonstration, or write about it in a newspaper. But they are not going to break windows, fight with the police, or engage in violent protests.
This perception of Jews as a law-abiding community is, paradoxically, doing them a disservice. It leads to them being taken less seriously, and, in some cases, it creates an impetus to put more pressure on the more reasonable side.
That is yet another factor at play. Still, another issue is that society does not know how to handle antisemites once they have reached their peak influence. People struggle to differentiate between freedom of speech as an individual right and the issue of providing platforms for hate speech.
There has been an intense internal political debate over when to de-platform individuals and when to allow them space to speak. Many are ill-prepared to engage in fact-based debates on these topics. Instead, public discourse has become more emotionally driven, with people favouring arguments that align with their preconceived beliefs rather than engaging with logic, evidence, and reasoned discussion.
This has also resulted in antisemitic figures being given a pass if they seem reasonable or correct on unrelated issues. For instance, figures like Tucker Carlson have been excused in broader political discourse because they presented what some perceived as a constructive framework on certain topics. As a result, they were able to push antisemitic narratives further, testing boundaries and growing bolder in their rhetoric. The less pushback they received, the more brazen their antisemitic and other bigoted statements became.
That is another contributing factor. We can also discuss figures like Candace Owens and the bizarre conspiracy theories she has been promoting, which go far beyond typical antisemitic narratives. She has been pushing ideas related to Frankism, a historical religious movement associated with Jacob Frank.
Jacob Frank was a Jewish mystic and self-proclaimed messianic figure who led a controversial sect that rejected traditional Judaism in favour of radical theological and social ideas. His movement, known as Frankism, was marked by antinomian beliefs, secrecy, and conversions to Christianity.
Some fringe conspiracy theories attempt to link modern political figures to Frankism, promoting the idea that secretive and subversive elites are wielding hidden influence over global affairs. These theories play into longstanding antisemitic tropes about dual loyalties and fifth-columnist infiltration.
Frankism is frequently invoked in conspiratorial narratives claiming that secret elites manipulate politics. It aligns closely with a hardcore populist vision embraced by the far right. These theories are often tied to Illuminati-style claims, suggesting that hidden Jewish elites are orchestrating global power struggles.
This is similar to QAnon but less focused on accusations of sex crimes and more centred on the idea of a covert globalist Jewish elite engaging in deception. Figures like Candace Owens and other far-right conspiracy theorists have deliberately misused Frankism to push baseless claims about a supposed Jewish-controlled world order. There is absolutely no foundation for these theories, yet they continue to be amplified in far-right circles.
The idea of globalist Jewish elites and Jews as globalists or ruthless cosmopolitans has a clear historical lineage. You can trace a neo-Marxist link here because the Soviet Union used to label certain Jews as rootless cosmopolitans—a term used to justify antisemitic purges. Today, that rhetoric has evolved, with cosmopolitans and globalists used as veiled pejoratives.
We have seen this narrative persist for years, even being embraced by some right-wing Jews who attempt to align with these movements by focusing solely on the economic aspects of globalism. However, history has shown that no matter how much they try to fit in, this rhetoric inevitably turns against them. The broader and more far-reaching application of this idea now means that anyone with a particular set of ideas—especially those advocating for international cooperation or liberal democracy—can be accused of globalism.
This Jewish aspect plays into it in a deeply antisemitic way. For example, Kevin Roberts, the head of the Heritage Foundation, which was once associated with Reaganism but is now aligned with Viktor Orbán, the New Institute, and Russian nationalist ideology, has demonstrated this dynamic.
At one point, Roberts attacked someone simply for mentioning Leo Strauss, a conservative Jewish thinker, dismissing him as a neocon and globalist. It was a visceral reaction rather than a substantive political disagreement. The association of certain Jewish intellectuals with globalism is not based on ideological critique but rather on a deeply ingrained antisemitic reflex.
This kind of rhetoric is far-fetched and transparently antisemitic, as the discussion itself had nothing to do with globalism or neoconservatism. Yet, the perception that many Jews are Democrats and part of elite institutions has fueled these stereotypes and will likely continue to do so.
Jacobsen: A lot of these conversations—especially ones involving figures like Candace Owens—whether or not they are deliberate in intent, function to expand the Overton window for antisemitic discourse. The details of what they bring up may not even be coherent or historically accurate, but they serve to normalize these narratives.
If there is any conscious ideological push, this seems to be its main effect: shifting what is acceptable to say in public discourse. That is probably the most dangerous aspect of the increasing use of antisemitic language and ideas in mainstream discussions.
What about left-wing versions of religious antisemitism?
We often see Jesus portrayed in Western media as a blond-haired, blue-eyed man of European descent—almost as if he were from Mississippi or the American Midwest. This version of Jesus is so ingrained in certain Christian communities that it has led to humorous memes, where people mistakenly put up images of Obi-Wan Kenobi from Star Wars as depictions of Jesus.
However, beyond this, there are sectarian religious movements, particularly within certain African American religious groups and other identity-based theologies, that promote the idea of a Black Jesus. There is also a broader, more problematic trend where some left-wing religious movements deny that Jesus was Jewish at all.
What do you make of these left-wing religious narratives and their versions of antisemitism, particularly those that attempt to erase Jesus’ Jewish identity?
Tsukerman: First of all, the idea that Jesus was anything other than a Jewish individual living in that historical time frame is outright false. While accounts differ regarding what happened next, there is no serious academic dispute about his Jewish identity. The fact that some people feel the need to assign Jesus a specific ethnic or racial identity beyond that is troubling. If you are a Christian, then Jesus’ ethnicity should not be of primary concern, as Christianity is centred on his teachings rather than his background. If you are an academic scholar, you should acknowledge historical realities rather than attempt to reshape them for ideological reasons.
Even more concerning is the recent push to identify Jesus as a so-called “Palestinian,” a term he would never have used to describe himself. The Romans, who imposed the name Palestina on the region, were colonizers. Modern post-colonial movements should recognize this fact and, if they are consistent in their principles, should not be aligned with the terminology of the Roman colonial framework. Instead, they should acknowledge that the people living in that region at the time—including Jesus—identified as Israelites or Judeans, not Palestinians. They certainly did not call themselves Romans, as they lived under Roman rule as second-class citizens, at best, without full rights.
The historical use of the term “Palestinian” evolved much later. When it first became commonly used under the British Mandate, it was a descriptor for Jews living in the region before the establishment of Israel. The Arabs of the time did not identify as Palestinians; they referred to themselves based on their tribal names and Arab ancestry. It was not until the 1960s, when the Soviet Union played a role in fostering a national movement, that the term “Palestinian” began to be widely used as an Arab national identity. This anachronistic historical revisionism is ideological in nature, serving to erase Jewish historical identity, delegitimize Jewish ties to the land, and reframe religious narratives through a contemporary political lens.
This type of historical distortion is deeply troubling because it not only denies Jewish history but also introduces an unnecessary and divisive political element into religion. Religion is meant to unify people, promote healing, and provide a framework for coexistence. It is not supposed to be used to manufacture ethnic or religious division. When religion becomes a battleground for power struggles, it ceases to function as a religious institution and instead becomes a political tool. This is not a religious issue—it is a manipulation of history to serve a political agenda. What we see now has nothing to do with Christianity, Jesus, or genuine religious beliefs. It is an effort to impose contemporary political ideologies onto historical narratives to fit a specific agenda.
This approach closely resembles the KGB’s tactics in Soviet Russia, where they sought to infiltrate and manipulate the Russian Orthodox Church, turning it into a state-controlled ideological entity rather than an independent religious institution. Instead of adhering to its spiritual traditions, the Church under Soviet control became an instrument of official narratives. Similarly, what we are witnessing today is an attempt to redefine religious history—not to promote faith but to weaponize it for political purposes.
Jacobsen: We previously touched on woke ideology and its antisemitic elements. This is one of those complex issues where progressivism sometimes overlaps with conservative or centrist positions in certain evidence-based areas. However, it takes on a different nature when it abandons evidence and becomes purely ideological. It warrants a distinct title that separates it from its original intent. In this case, woke antisemitism falls into that category.
Where do you think the overstretch occurs beyond what we have already discussed regarding left-wing religious antisemitism, historical revisionism, and religious narrative distortion? Specifically, how do you see the intersectional framework—originally developed in feminist analysis—used as a tool for this kind of ideological expansion?
Tsukerman: I would call it regressive liberalism rather than progressivism. It is regressive in the sense that it returns to tribalist politics, and it is illiberal because it fails to recognize individual rights, personal autonomy, and the moral agency of individuals. Instead of acknowledging that every person has their capacity for reason, conscience, and human rights—whether understood as natural rights or, for the religious, as divinely endowed—it judges people solely based on group identity.
That is not to say that group identity cannot be an influencing factor in one’s worldview or experiences, but people still have the ability to make their own moral choices. The core values of the Enlightenment and the classical liberal tradition are the capacity for moral reasoning and individual responsibility. This principle is not merely a product of modernity—it can be traced back to Aristotle, who emphasized character over status despite living in a different historical context. If you look at his Nicomachean Ethics, particularly his treatise on friendship, he argued that true friendship is defined by virtue and character rather than by social position or external circumstances. That was an extraordinary idea in his time and remains fundamental today.
Similarly, in religious traditions, moral choice is considered one of the few things human beings have control over. Everything else—circumstances, fate, divine will—may be outside of our control, but moral autonomy is central to human dignity. Identity politics, in contrast, undermines this principle by reducing individuals to the circumstances of their birth rather than recognizing their ability to rise above them. Psychological factors, mental health, and environmental challenges can influence moral choices. Still, they are ultimately the defining aspect of a person’s character.
When society shifts away from moral autonomy and instead judges people based on external categories—whether race, gender, ethnicity, or class—it erodes the very foundation of justice and individual dignity. Instead of allowing people to define themselves through their actions and values, identity politics forces them into predefined boxes, stripping them of the capacity for individual moral accountability. Unless we focus on a person’s choices rather than external attributes, we lose sight of what it means to be human.
Jacobsen: What about sociocultural and psychological antisemitism? Sociocultural antisemitism is somewhat more obvious—it manifests within governance systems, cultural norms, or ethnic groups that adhere to ideological frameworks that contain antipathy toward Jewish people. These systems may institutionalize antisemitism in policies, education, or legal structures, making it a deeply ingrained societal problem.
However, psychological antisemitism is a bit trickier to analyze. What do you make of the psychology of an antisemitic individual? You referenced earlier how difficult it is to know what to do with someone who has already adopted antisemitic beliefs, particularly when those beliefs have become deeply embedded in their worldview. Is there a way to truly deradicalize such individuals?
When I spoke with a counter-extremism and counter-terrorism expert who worked for CSIS (Canada’s intelligence agency) for 30 years, he was quite cynical about the prospect of fully rehabilitating former extremists. He expressed skepticism toward those who go on public speaking tours as reformed extremists, questioning whether any of them have truly abandoned their ideologies or if they change the way they present their beliefs.
Suppose antisemitism operates under a similar psychological framework as religious or political extremism. In that case, those who embrace it may never fully lose it. They might suppress it under social pressure or shift its form, but the underlying mentality could remain intact. What are your thoughts on whether antisemitism, once deeply ingrained, can ever be completely unlearned?
Tsukerman: I will start with the first element—sociocultural antisemitism—because culture plays a crucial role in shaping societal attitudes. Culture is more than just food, language, or identity; it influences social norms, governance, and how people perceive others. To take an extreme example, consider Gaza and the deep-rooted antisemitism that has developed over the decades. The issue is not whether every individual there supports Hamas—many people in Gaza disagree with Hamas, viewing it as corrupt and responsible for their suffering. However, this does not negate the fact that antisemitism has been systematically ingrained into the society. For decades, through media, education, and political propaganda, an ideology has been cultivated that promotes not just anti-Israel sentiment but outright hatred of Jews.
This indoctrination begins at a young age, with children being raised to view Jews not as individuals but as enemies. This kind of conditioning creates a deeply ingrained belief system that requires extensive and systematic effort to undo. It is not simply a matter of changing political leadership; it requires long-term psychological and cultural rehabilitation. We saw the effects of this indoctrination after October 7th, when masses of civilians voluntarily participated in attacks, following Hamas operatives into Israel and assisting in the abduction of civilians. Nobody forced them to do this, and they were not acting under direct coercion at that moment. Yet, they engaged in violence, cooperated with Hamas, and, in some cases, even took hostages into their own homes. Some went so far as to kill children from the Bibas family, demonstrating the extent of dehumanization that has taken hold.
Furthermore, when Israel issued reward offers for those willing to provide information on hostages or help them escape, not a single person came forward. This was shocking because even during Nazi Germany, there were non-Jewish civilians—righteous gentiles—who risked their lives to hide Jews or help them escape. Even in countries where collaborationism and antisemitism were widespread, individuals made moral choices to stand against injustice. Yet, in this case, there is no clear evidence that anyone in Gaza attempted to do the same. At best, some may not have directly participated in the violence, but they did not intervene. This reflects a severe moral breakdown—a level of societal dehumanization where war crimes and human rights abuses are not only normalized but celebrated. Such a collapse of basic human empathy indicates a deeply ingrained cultural problem that must be addressed for that society to function properly.
This leads directly to psychological antisemitism, which is even more difficult to counteract. Many individuals who harbour antisemitic beliefs may have never even met a Jewish person. They know they hate Jews, but they cannot articulate why. The hatred becomes instinctual, detached from reality, and embedded into their identity. At that point, it is no longer a rational belief but a deeply ingrained psychological disturbance. When an individual cannot separate their worldview from their hatred, they lose the ability to examine their own biases critically.
However, antisemitism does not always manifest in such extreme forms. Some individuals are simply ignorant—they have been fed misinformation or stereotypes without actively engaging in hateful behaviour. These people can sometimes be reached through education and exposure to accurate information. They may begin to question their biases if they encounter logical arguments or meet individuals who contradict their preconceived stereotypes. Over time, seeds of doubt can be planted, and they may shift their perspectives with the right exposure.
But once antisemitism reaches the level of fanaticism—when a person’s entire identity is built around that hatred—it becomes significantly harder to undo. If someone defines themselves primarily by their opposition to Jews, Israel, or Zionism, rational arguments alone may not be enough to break through that indoctrination. I cannot say such individuals can’t change; there are cases of people who have recognized the destructiveness of their beliefs and have worked to undo them. However, the deeper the indoctrination, the harder the path to deradicalization. It requires not just education but a fundamental transformation of worldview—something that many people may never fully achieve.
What would it take to undo antisemitic radicalization? I do not specialize in deradicalization, but it would require dismantling a person’s deeply ingrained identity—something that has likely been reinforced since childhood or embraced so fully later in life that it has become their primary lens for understanding the world. To truly reverse such an extreme worldview, the person would need to be psychologically broken down and forced to confront the realization that their foundational beliefs were entirely wrong. Only then could they rebuild their identity around something positive as a substitute. This kind of transformation is not merely an intellectual shift; it is a complete reorganization of mindset, especially when antisemitism has become a core part of someone’s identity.
There is, of course, a range of psychological engagement with antisemitism, just as there is with other belief systems. Someone who has been misinformed but has never internalized hatred may be able to change their perspective simply through education and exposure to different viewpoints. But someone whose entire identity is built on antisemitic ideology—whether due to upbringing or deliberate radicalization—requires a much deeper psychological shift. It is similar to mental health conditions: a person experiencing mild situational depression may recover with time and support, whereas someone with a clinically diagnosed condition may need intensive intervention. Similarly, some individuals may have been raised with the wrong ideas and never had proper exposure to alternative perspectives. In contrast, others have fully structured their identities around an antisemitic worldview. The latter group is far more difficult to reach and requires significant intervention to break down their ingrained biases.
Jacobsen: Soviet propaganda has been revised and rebranded over time. How has this happened in the current context? Was it done as a formal process, or has it evolved organically among ideological actors working in those spaces? How have narratives that closely mirror past Soviet propaganda emerged independently yet still align with the same conclusions and rhetoric?
Tsukerman: I would not say that these narratives emerged separately because Soviet intelligence agencies never truly disappeared, and neither did the tradition of information warfare they developed. Russian intelligence and propaganda operations have a five-hundred-year continuity, transitioning from the Tsarist era to the Soviet Union and now to contemporary Russian security agencies. Many of the narratives we see today are not new; they have been recycled, sometimes with slight modifications, but maintaining an unbroken ideological continuity.
A clear example of this rebranded propaganda is the blood libel, one of the oldest antisemitic conspiracies. In medieval times, the blood libel was the accusation that Jews kidnapped and murdered Christian children for occult rituals. While this idea had largely faded in Western societies, it resurfaced in the Middle East thanks to Soviet intervention. The Soviets deliberately spread these narratives as part of their broader effort to destabilize the region and turn Arab nations against Israel. The modern iteration of the blood libel takes many forms: false claims that Jews poison Palestinian wells, that they target children specifically for violence, or that they carry out hidden acts of mass murder. Some of these accusations have even included reports of dead children who later turn out to be alive, showing the sheer fabrication involved in these claims.
Another modern rebranding of this concept involves Ukraine. A widely circulated antisemitic conspiracy theory alleges that Ukrainian President Volodymyr Zelensky, who is Jewish, is actively destroying Christian Orthodox churches or establishing “fake” religious institutions. The implication is that he is doing so because he is not Christian. Therefore, as a Jew, he is inherently hostile to Christianity.
However, the reality is entirely different. The actual issue in Ukraine is that Russia has used the Russian Orthodox Church as an instrument of intelligence and political influence. The Ukrainian Orthodox Church does not recognize these Russian-controlled churches, which Russian intelligence agencies have long infiltrated. Many ethnic Russians living in Ukraine also do not recognize these institutions as legitimate. As a result, Ukrainian authorities have treated them not as religious institutions but as fronts for security operations.
Despite the real security concerns at play, the antisemitic component of this propaganda seeks to frame Zelensky as an outsider, an imposter at the helm of the country, working to erase Christian tradition and target Christians. This rhetoric echoes centuries-old antisemitic tropes, now repackaged to fit contemporary geopolitical narratives. What we are witnessing is not new antisemitism but rather a continuous, evolving cycle of old conspiracy theories being adapted to new political contexts.
Tucker Carlson was one of the prominent figures amplifying these narratives using his large media platforms. His ability to inject these conspiratorial and antisemitic tropes into mainstream discourse has played a key role in their continued spread.
Jacobsen: Okay, so aside from one of the oldest and strangest antisemitic myths—the blood libel and ritual sacrifice—there’s also the claim that these ideas have somehow been linked to modern organ trafficking and underground cabals. It feels like stepping into a conversation that suddenly shifts into discussing realms, as if we’ve left reality and entered the world of J.R.R. Tolkien. It’s a strange thing. It’s so completely abnormal.
These theories exist in extremely closed-off informational bubbles, where people consume and reinforce the same extreme ideas. To fully buy into them, one has to be disconnected from reality and entrenched in these insulated ideological communities. One of the more bizarre ones you brought to my attention was about shapeshifting reptilian hybrids.
People have likely seen clips on conspiracy websites, particularly in the Alex Jones ecosystem or from David Icke himself. These clips often feature low-quality graphics where someone’s eyes momentarily appear reptilian—before returning to normal. It’s always minor, a digital artifact or a compression glitch, but the conspiratorial mindset takes it as proof. They look away, look back, and suddenly, Oh my God!—the person is back to normal.
But the deeper conspiracy, according to Icke and his followers, is that reptilian-human hybrids secretly control the world. In particular, conspiracists influenced by Icke claim that Jewish elites—most often the Rothschilds—are shapeshifting reptilian overlords. Their “evidence” includes completely mundane things, like someone licking their lips or blinking in a way they consider weird. Somehow, these minor actions become proof of an elaborate extraterrestrial conspiracy.
This theory merges elements of sci-fi, occultism, and classic antisemitic stereotypes, portraying Jews not just as scheming globalists but as literal non-human entities with supernatural abilities. It’s one of the strangest iterations of antisemitism—a tripartite fusion of xenophobia, fantasy, and age-old conspiracy theories.
This is different from traditional antisemitic tropes, like depicting Jews as money-hoarders as if dragons (à la Smaug) or using racist caricatures with exaggerated features like big noses and scheming hands. Instead, this version takes it even further, arguing that Jews are an entirely different species, controlling world events from the shadows.
What do you make of how David Icke’s ideas have been incorporated into these other conspiracy theories, creating this surreal blend of sci-fi occult antisemitism?
Tsukerman: The occult element in conspiracy theories is fascinating because it has been a recurring theme in both Soviet and early Russian propaganda, as well as in Nazi propaganda. Both ideologies had an unusual obsession with the occult. If you trace it back historically, during the Middle Ages, there was a widespread conspiracy theory that specifically accused Jews of being in league with the devil, practicing dark magic, and engaging in sinister rituals.
The blood libel was a major part of this, as demonic rituals were often believed to require blood sacrifices or the use of human blood to summon supernatural entities. While the premise is completely irrational, this madness has an internal logic. It builds on the portrayal of Jews as outsiders who do not fit into society but instead act as chameleons—blending in while secretly working toward global domination. This theme is closely tied to other so-called traditional antisemitic conspiracy theories, such as those about Jewish elites hoarding money and power.
Then there is the third element, which claims that Jews, particularly wealthy or influential ones, are shapeshifting—both metaphorically and literally. The metaphorical version argues that Jewish elites manipulate society by adapting to different roles and disguising their true intentions to deceive the public. The more extreme and bizarre version of this is the reptilian conspiracy theory, which has been folded into modern conspiratorial subcultures, particularly among followers of QAnon, pseudoscience, and conspiracy fiction. Some argue that David Icke’s reptilian theory was inherently antisemitic from the beginning, as it aligns with these older tropes about Jewish deception, global control, and non-human status.
You may have heard the common joke about Mark Zuckerberg being a lizard person. It became a meme, especially after his congressional hearings related to Meta and Facebook. I assumed it was just a joke about his somewhat robotic demeanour when I first heard it. But when I connected it back to Icke’s reptilian theory, I realized that these ideas had started infiltrating mainstream discourse. What began as a fringe, bizarre conspiracy theory started affecting certain individuals’ perceptions.
This phenomenon has gained a significant cult following. Many people are deeply engaged in these conspiracy circles—not just JFK conspiracy theorists but those involved in much weirder, more outlandish theories. The reptilian myth has influenced a wide range of online conspiracy subcultures, including QAnon and UFO enthusiasts. Interestingly, despite being commonly associated with those circles, QAnon is not strictly a right-wing movement—it has cross-sectional political appeal. Meanwhile, the UFO subculture has transformed from being a niche sci-fi fascination, once dismissed as nerds in their parent’s basements, into something the Pentagon and other government agencies have officially discussed over the past few years.
In the UK, an entire division is now focused on analyzing whether some of these claims have merit. This shift into official discussions has fueled more speculation. Intelligence agencies have conducted bizarre experiments in the past—take Project MKUltra in the 1960s, for example—and the Soviet Union had its equivalent programs. Many conspiracy theories today harken back to an anti-intelligence agency mindset, drawing from real historical operations while incorporating wildly exaggerated and fictional elements.
All of this ultimately ties back into the shapeshifting global elite myth. David Icke is not just seen as an eccentric conspiracy theorist making up bizarre stories for a living—many see him as a tool, possibly being used by foreign powers to push these narratives into mainstream discourse deliberately. Whether intentionally or not, his ideas have contributed to the spread of antisemitic, anti-establishment, and deeply conspiratorial thinking on a global scale.
There is strong evidence that conspiracy theories, particularly those with antisemitic undertones, have a high degree of acceptance in Russia. This is an important factor to consider because it ties into a broader history of racial and eugenics-based antisemitism that emerged in the late 19th and early 20th centuries. During this period, pseudoscientific racial theories falsely claimed that Jews had genetic traits that made them inherently deceptive or subversive. Nazi ideology took this to its extreme, using fabricated biological classifications to label Jews and other groups as genetically inferior, contributing directly to the Holocaust.
This same thread of pseudoscience has continued to evolve in modern conspiracy circles. One of the strange mutations of these theories involves the claim that Jewish elites are involved in genetic experiments aimed at altering human DNA. This is often linked to transhumanism, artificial intelligence, and the biotech industry. It is also tied into anti-vaccine conspiracy theories, with accusations that Jewish scientists or financiers are manipulating human genetics for nefarious purposes. These ideas are completely unfounded but persist in various subcultures that view scientific advancement through a paranoid, conspiratorial lens.
And who frequently comes up in these transhumanist conspiracy theories? Elon Musk, alongside a few other high-profile tech billionaires. While I am not suggesting that Musk himself subscribes to QAnon, occult accusations, or theories about a so-called satanic cabal, there are certainly people within these ideological circles who try to connect him to these narratives. Different subcultures—ranging from QAnon supporters to transhumanist skeptics—intersect unexpectedly. The transhumanist billionaires and the QAnon crowd are not necessarily the same people, but their beliefs overlap in certain areas.
For instance, former General Mike Flynn, a prominent QAnon figure, is not a transhumanist. Still, he aligns closely with figures like Musk, Tucker Carlson, and current and former Trump officials. Despite their ideological differences, all of these conspiracy narratives seem to converge on antisemitic tropes, whether through overt accusations or more subtle dog whistles. Even when these theories have different angles—whether they focus on global finance, artificial intelligence, or biotech—they all somehow end up reinforcing the same core antisemitic narratives.
Jacobsen: Now, here is something I did not know before. The only time I have heard the term golem was in Star Trek: Picard, in one of the later seasons, maybe season two. In that storyline, Picard dies, but his consciousness is transferred into an artificial golem body, allowing him to live on despite his degenerative illness.
A conspiracy theory centred around the golem, twisting its origins in Jewish legend. In traditional Jewish folklore, a golem was a mystical creature made from clay to protect Jewish communities from danger. However, modern conspiracy theorists have warped this legend into something sinister, claiming that Jews possess the ability to create artificial, soulless beings that they use to control the masses.
What the hell is going on?
Tsukerman: This is yet another iteration of the same conspiratorial framework—one that takes elements of Jewish mysticism, particularly from Kabbalah, and weaponizes them against Jews. These conspiracies mix religious esotericism with occult paranoia, reinforcing the narrative that Jews are secretive manipulators of dark forces.
I am not going to comment on whether Kabbalah has any legitimacy as a mystical or spiritual tradition, but what is clear is that antisemitic conspiracy theorists have used it to fuel fears about hidden Jewish power. This is part of a broader historical pattern of distorting Jewish religious and cultural concepts to fit an antisemitic agenda.
At its core, this fearmongering is about othering—taking something poorly understood and turning it into a source of suspicion and paranoia. These conspiracies deny the moral foundations of Jewish traditions and instead try to project some form of Jewish supremacism onto them. The idea that Jews see themselves as a chosen people is deliberately twisted to suggest that they view non-Jews as inferior or disposable.
Ultimately, all of these narratives—from medieval blood libel myths to modern golem conspiracies—stem from the same fundamental antisemitic fear: the belief that Jews possess secret knowledge or power that they use to manipulate the world. It is the same myth, recycled repeatedly and adapted to different historical and cultural contexts.
There is an underlying oppressor-oppressed narrative woven through all of these conspiracy theories, but at this point, it is not necessarily confined to a left-wing ideological framework. It is a broader pattern of scaffolding—where an entire group is falsely vilified—because acknowledging that a group of people follows a moral tradition based on enlightened principles would undermine the dehumanization that fuels these conspiratorial movements.
This is not just a political issue but a deeply rooted ethical, moral, and philosophical struggle. The projection of Jews as demonic is not new; it is simply another way to carry out smear campaigns and character assassination against an entire people and their traditions. This narrative has morphed, adapting to different historical and cultural moments. Still, ultimately, it has always been about power.
One could argue that people who fall for these conspiracy theories have something inherently wrong with them—that they are mentally unstable or overly prone to fantastical thinking. But those who actively push these narratives into the mainstream are not deluded. They know exactly what they are doing. They deliberately inject these bizarre elements—references to dark forces, magic, demons, elite manipulation—because they are effective tools for fear-mongering. Their goal is to manipulate the uneducated masses, fueling paranoia to serve a larger ideological or political agenda.
Today, we still see people rejecting modern science in favour of pseudoscience. Some individuals, instead of seeking proper cancer treatment, turn to crystals and spiritual healing—not because they are enlightened, but because they lack a scientific education. Suppose people in the 21st century can still fall for such obvious misinformation. In that case, it is no surprise that they also fall for these mishmash conspiracy theories about Jewish control.
One of the strangest developments is how the golem—originally a protective figure in Jewish folklore—has been distorted in modern antisemitic narratives. In these conspiracy circles, the golem has been recast as a symbol of non-Jews—the so-called goyim nations—being manipulated by Jewish elites. Jews, according to this narrative, are shaping non-Jews into puppets and controlling them from behind the scenes. This theme connects back to classic antisemitic myths about Jews orchestrating global events, from the stock market crash to 9/11 to the Russian Revolution. It is just another repackaging of the same old accusation—that Jews secretly pull the strings of world affairs.
But here is where it takes an even more bizarre turn. The golem myth has now been linked to AI technology and media influence. Conspiracists claim that Jews are using machines and social structures as modern-day golems to control society. They link this to AI development, singularity, and transhumanism—specifically, implanting neural chips in human brains. The claim is that Jewish elites are leading these advancements as part of a grand plan to manipulate and dominate the world.
It is beyond absurd. But what makes it even more ironic is that many of the same people who accuse Jews of promoting transhumanist agendas are also the ones actively participating in those same movements. The biggest globalists—the tech billionaires pushing transhumanism—are, in a sense, globalists by definition. Yet, they tend to align with the very people who blame Jews for being globalists. It is a contradiction that reveals the fundamentally incoherent nature of these conspiracy theories.
Jacobsen: Let’s talk about the claims regarding Jewish people or Israel, particularly the accusations about Jewish control of the weather.
This sounds eerily similar to the earlier conspiracy theories about space lasers. Still, in this case, it includes claims that Jews can cause earthquakes, trigger hurricanes, and even manipulate weather patterns for political or financial gain. It would be hilarious if it weren’t for the underlying real antisemitism and racism behind it.
One of the most well-known proponents of this theory was Louis Farrakhan, who suggested that Israel had the power to create hurricanes. That’s a recent precedent for this nonsense within our collective memory. When a prominent figure within the Nation of Islam makes such claims, it influences his community. It lends a dangerous level of credibility to something that should be dismissed outright.
What are your thoughts on this?
Tsukerman: Like many antisemitic myths, this one originated in medieval Europe. Jewish communities were often accused of causing natural disasters, plagues, and famines, usually as a pretext for persecution.
One of the more ironic aspects of this history is that during the Black Plague, Jews had lower death rates than the general population. But the reason was not supernatural—it was hygienic. Jewish laws and rituals included regular hand washing, which was uncommon in Europe then. Because of this, their mortality rates were sometimes lower, which led to wild accusations of witchcraft and sorcery. People could not comprehend why Jews weren’t dying at the same rates, so instead of thinking logically, they resorted to conspiracy theories.
Additionally, Jewish dietary laws contributed to higher survival rates. Rats, which were the primary carriers of the plague, were not kosher, and Jewish households generally avoided contact with them. Kosher food laws also required strict cleanliness to avoid contamination by insects or diseases. These factors likely played a role in reducing plague deaths among Jewish communities. But rather than investigating the practical reasons behind this, people blamed the Jews. They used it as an excuse for further persecution.
Another factor contributed to the weather-related myths. Jewish prayers often include requests for rain, particularly because Judaism originated in arid climates where rain was crucial for survival. When Jews migrated to other regions, these prayers remained part of their tradition. However, in deeply superstitious societies, some people likely believed that these prayers had an actual effect on the weather, leading to myths about Jewish control over nature.
Fast-forward to today and these ridiculous myths have never disappeared—they have just been updated for a modern audience. Instead of medieval superstition, they have been repackaged into pseudoscientific and technological narratives about climate change.
Of course, Louis Farrakhan remains one of the most vocal modern figures spreading this nonsense. Whether he believes his claims or finds it convenient to push these ideas for political and ideological reasons is unclear, but the impact is undeniable.
Another example of these weather-control conspiracies involves the Rothschild family, who have long been central figures in antisemitic myths about Jewish control of banking and global finance. Even after many Rothschild descendants ceased to be Jewish—because of intermarriage with non-Jewish families—the conspiracy theories persisted. In reality, the Rothschilds were just one of many prominent banking families. Still, because they were Jewish, they became the primary target of these myths.
One particularly bizarre claim suggests that the Rothschilds funded secret weather control programs. The supposed program, HAARP (High-Frequency Active Auroral Research Program), is a real government research project that studies the ionosphere. Still, conspiracy theorists have turned it into a Jewish-led initiative for controlling the weather. The name itself sounds like something out of Ghostbusters, which only adds to the absurdity of the theory.
Then, of course, we have the infamous Jewish space lasers. U.S. Congresswoman Marjorie Taylor Greene promoted the idea that Jewish-funded space lasers were responsible for wildfires in California. It is yet another modern iteration of these age-old conspiracies—just repackaged with science-fiction aesthetics to appeal to contemporary conspiracy theorists.
At the core of all these narratives—whether about plague, weather, financial control, or space lasers—is the same underlying antisemitic trope: the idea that Jews possess secret, supernatural, or technological power that they use to manipulate world events. It’s the same myth, repeated over and over again, just dressed up in a new language to fit the fears of the time.
It was in 2021, years before the latest wildfires. I’m afraid to think what conspiracy theorists will come up with next if even fewer wildfires were blamed on Jewish space lasers. U.S. Representative Marjorie Taylor Greene implied that elite Jewish bankers—continuing the longstanding trope about the Rothschilds—were involved in using directed energy weapons to cause environmental disruption for profit. This follows a pattern of antisemitic conspiracy theories that frame Jewish individuals or entities as secret global manipulators.
Some people have taken these ideas even further, not just blaming Jews broadly—whatever that means—but specifically accusing Israel of possessing secret technology to manipulate the weather for strategic advantage.
For example, in 2018, Brigadier General Gholam Reza Jalali, an Iranian general, accused Israel of “stealing rain clouds” to cause droughts despite scientific evidence refuting such claims. In reality, Iran’s droughts are caused by climate change and severe environmental mismanagement, including the overuse of water resources, inefficient irrigation practices, deforestation, and the construction of dams that disrupt natural river systems. Rather than any external interference, these factors have significantly contributed to water shortages.
Cloud seeding is a scientifically studied technique to enhance precipitation. However, it is not a secret or exclusive to any one country. Ironically, the United Arab Emirates has been one of the leading nations in cloud seeding research, alongside China, the United States, and Russia. There is no credible evidence linking Israel—or Jewish organizations—to covert global weather manipulation. Cloud seeding involves dispersing silver iodide or sodium chloride into clouds to encourage rainfall. However, it is not a form of weather control like conspiracy theorists claim; it cannot cause droughts, hurricanes, or other major climate phenomena.
The practice remains controversial, with ongoing debates about its effectiveness and potential long-term climatic impacts. However, it is linked to multiple governments and scientific institutions operating within the framework of regulated meteorological research. While having greater control over weather patterns could theoretically be advantageous, humanity is nowhere near developing precise, large-scale weather control technologies. Some cloud seeding attempts have even produced unintended consequences, including excessive rainfall or failure to produce significant precipitation.
Despite the scientific facts, conspiracy theories persist. Why do such ideas persist, even when there is clear evidence that they are either entirely false or grossly misrepresented?
Several key factors drive their persistence:
- Mistrust of Science and Government – Many conspiracy theorists distrust anything related to climate science, dismissing it as politically motivated or controlled by hidden elites.
- Skepticism toward scientific explanations—Some people gravitate toward more fantastical, emotionally compelling explanations rather than accepting evidence-based reasoning.
- Antisemitic Tropes – There is a long history of antisemitic narratives depicting Jews as secretive global orchestrators of political and financial power. The Rothschild family, in particular, has been falsely accused for centuries of manipulating world events despite clear historical evidence debunking such claims.
- Social Media and Disinformation – The rise of social media algorithms has allowed misinformation to spread at unprecedented speeds, pushing extremist narratives into mainstream discourse. What once existed in fringe communities is now amplified worldwide, reinforcing existing biases and paranoia.
Jacobsen: I am shocked by how much nonsense is still being spread. Some conspiracy theorists go as far as to claim that the Rothschild family is connected to space-based weaponry or energy beams supposedly used for global Jewish domination. These claims are frequently intertwined with Illuminati, Freemason, and mind-control conspiracies, often targeting Ashkenazi Jews in particular.
Why is this subgroup singled out? Likely because Ashkenazi Jews make up the largest Jewish population worldwide and have historically been prominent in intellectual, scientific, and cultural achievements. This visibility makes them frequent targets for those who believe in secret global power structures.
These conspiracy theories often involve symbols, numerology, and coded gestures, claiming that these elements are evidence of covert world manipulation. However, such ideas are nothing more than modern iterations of centuries-old antisemitic myths repackaged for the digital age.
They claim that there are mind control techniques used to influence societies—whether through messaging in media, entertainment, or education. This is a more complex issue. I’m sure there are Freemasons out there who would probably find these claims hilarious. Let it be because there aren’t that many Freemasons in the world.
There are Christian, Muslim, Sikh, Jewish, and other Freemasons. The primary requirements for joining the Freemasons are to be part of the brotherhood and believe in God. Those are the two main conditions. Ironically, for a long time, Freemasons were mostly Christian and did not have much Jewish representation.
Tsukerman: The reason Freemasonry is often linked to conspiracy theories is that there is a longstanding tradition of combining antisemitism with myths about secret societies, claiming that shadowy elites manipulate world events.
It is a classic conspiracy theory that there is a “shadow state” or “deep state,” or some secret cabal of globalist leaders pulling the strings. One of the biggest contributing factors to this narrative is The Protocols of the Elders of Zion. This fabricated text incorporated Masonic symbolism and themes, falsely linking Jews and Freemasons as co-conspirators in a global plot.
In the 18th and 19th centuries, there was a significant wave of anti-Masonic hysteria. Freemasons were accused—separately from Jews—of being a secretive, subversive force simply because they were an exclusive group that the general public didn’t understand. It was easier to blame mysterious societies for societal upheavals than to analyze the realcauses—such as wars waged by European monarchs, economic crises, and political turmoil.
Ironically, European monarchies and the Catholic Church were particularly suspicious of Masonic groups and often linked them to Jewish financiers.
Why? Because they couldn’t control them. Ironically, Jewish financiers were major contributors to European monarchies—funding wars, infrastructure, and economic ventures. However, monarchs who owed them money found it convenient to demonize them, blaming them for secretive plots rather than repaying their debts. This also prevented Jewish financiers from gaining too much political influence.
Another major conspiracy theory revolves around the Illuminati, a relatively short-lived Bavarian secret society. Over time, it was folded into larger conspiracy theories, often connected to Jews, Masons, and world domination.
In the 20th century, Nazi propaganda amplified these theories. The Nazis promoted the Judeo-Masonic conspiracy, falsely blaming Jews and Freemasons for both capitalism and communism, as well as for Germany’s economic struggles.
Why? Because it was easy and convenient. The theory played into existing antisemitic Nazi imagery, which was obsessed with the occult, secret societies, and hidden power structures. Additionally, because the Nazis were National Socialists, they shared some of the same conspiracy theories that had circulated elsewhere.
It’s easier to repeat past tropes than to come up with something original. Once a conspiracy theory is established and gains traction in the public consciousness, it doesn’t need to be reinvented. Instead, it can be recycled and rebranded for new audiences, reigniting old fears and prejudices.
Francisco Franco in Spain and Benito Mussolini also made similar claims to justify political repression. However, while they promoted authoritarian control, they were not as obsessed with the destruction of world Jewry as the Nazis were. Nevertheless, they leveraged antisemitic rhetoric to rally public support, even when it was not always necessary against actual Jewish communities.
In the 20th century and today, far-right and other online conspiracy theorists continue to make similar claims, suggesting that Jews, Freemasons, the Illuminati, Lizard People, and other shadowy groups control governments, banks, and the media. These theories often ignore basic contradictions—such as the fact that many of the world’s largest banks are not controlled by Jews.
For instance, some of the biggest financial backers of Western institutions today are not Jewish financiers but the government of Qatar, which has made massive investments in Western banks, media organizations, and real estate. However, this fact is not convenient for conspiracy theorists, so they ignore it.
Jacobsen: Now, here’s one I hadn’t heard of before, but it seems relevant—the claim that Jews possess time travel technology. According to this bizarre theory, Jewish people allegedly have ancient knowledge or have discovered ways to bend time using advanced physics to control world history. Some versions of this claim even involve manipulating quantum mechanics to shift historical events in their favour. I have no words for how absurd this is. But what are your thoughts?
Tsukerman: These theories fold into broader antisemitic myths that portray Jews as having hidden power over society, science, and technology. Ironically, the same people who most aggressively accuse Jews of such control are often the ones obsessed with acquiring these powers for themselves.
For example, this idea of Jewish control over time sometimes takes a metaphorical form. Essentially, Jews control history through media, education, and cultural influence. Holocaust denial is one of the biggest examples of this, with conspiracy theorists claiming that historical narratives are manipulated to serve Jewish interests. More recently, Inquisition denial has emerged in similar circles, claiming that persecution of Jews in medieval Europe is exaggerated.
For obvious reasons, this is such an enormous stretch that it has not gained mainstream traction. Instead, it mostly appears in far-right and esoteric conspiracy circles, where people peddle claims of Jewish manipulation of reality. These ideas draw on science fiction themes, blending into conspiracy theories about Lizard People, interdimensional beings, and other fringe beliefs.
Another variation is the idea of Jewish control over global travel and borders. You can imagine how this conspiracy theory exploded during COVID-19 when global travel restrictions were imposed. Some conspiracy theorists claimed that Jews controlled airports, visa systems, and international travel regulations as part of a global dominance strategy. What people can invent and how little evidence they need to persuade others to buy into their nonsense is astonishing.
Some of the same people who push these theories also claim that Jewish-owned banks and organizations dictate global migration patterns and engineer geopolitical crises for financial gain. This theory resurfaced around major financial crises, such as the 2008 financial collapse.
During the Occupy Wall Street movement, some people within those circles were influenced by these ideas—not all, but certain segments. The 9/11 financial conspiracy theories also played into this, with claims that Jews benefited financially from the attacks. This claim is both false and rooted in classic antisemitic tropes.
Those patterns—essentially, the same old antisemitic narratives repackaged in different forms. The connection between space and time and Jewish mysticism is interesting because it blends Kabbalah, the Golem legend, and pseudoscientific claims about time and space manipulation.
Some stem from pop culture adaptations and misinterpretations of Jewish mystical traditions. The Zohar and other Kabbalistic texts discuss divine time and spiritual dimensions. Still, conspiracy theorists twist these ideas to claim evidence of real-world time control.
These people, of course, don’t know what they’re talking about. They misinterpret Jewish religious and philosophical texts, bending them to fit conspiratorial narratives while ignoring historical reality. Instead of studying these traditions properly, they favour pseudoscience, sci-fi speculation, outrageous claims, and outright fabrications.
This also ties into the broader conspiracy that Jewish elites are supposedly infiltrating and taking over secret societies. The claim is not that Jews exist in these spaces but rather that they are infiltrating, dominating, and controlling them from within.
Part of this stems from a tendency to look for scapegoats to explain economic and political instability. Elites—especially Jewish elites—become the most convenient targets for such blame.
Jacobsen: Conspiracies in this space tend to be split into two broad categories:
- Scientific or pseudoscientific theories
- Pseudospiritual theories
Both are tied to antisemitic racism and are rooted in longstanding prejudices. On the pseudoscientific side, one of the most prominent conspiracy theories is about sinister genetic experiments aimed at creating a super-race or altering vaccines, food, and pharmaceuticals to control populations.
This theory often merges with anti-vaccine movements, falsely claiming that Jewish billionaires, such as George Soros or executives at Pfizer, are engineering biological control mechanisms.
That’s the pseudoscientific side. The pseudospiritual side involves concepts like energy vampirism and demonic possession.
- The energy vampirism claim suggests that Jews drain the life force or energy of others, either physically or metaphorically, by controlling economies, spreading despair through mass media, or influencing global events.
- The demonic possession claim is pushed by religious extremists, who allege that Jews possess demons, are possessed by demons, or work with Satanic forces to corrupt the world.
- Some evangelical circles even claim that Jews secretly control the Antichrist or that the Devil uses them as his agents on Earth.
What are your thoughts on these two categories—the pseudoscientific theories and the pseudospiritual ones?
Tsukerman: The genetic conspiracy theories are particularly interesting because they project onto Jews the very things that the Nazis and Soviets themselves did.
One of the biggest false claims is that Jews engaged in selective breeding or genetic manipulation to strengthen their influence or purity. But let’s be clear:
- Jews did not do this.
- Who did? The Germans and the Soviets.
The people who accused Jews of engaging in eugenics and genetic manipulation were the very ones doing it themselves.
Yes, some Jewish communities have historically been insular and did not marry outside their faith for cultural and religious reasons. However, they never engaged in eugenic breeding programs or genetic experiments—aside from medical testing for genetic illnesses, which is common in any population with a long history of close-knit communities.
As is often the case with antisemitic conspiracy theories, these claims blame the victims while projecting the real actions of others onto them.
- Under the Nazis, Jews were falsely labelled genetically inferior and subjected to eugenics programs, forced sterilizations, and medical experiments in concentration camps.
- After Hitler came to power, Jews became victims of racial purity laws that sought to eliminate them.
Yet, conspiracy theorists, today twist history to make it seem as if Jews were the one’s engineering eugenics programs when, in reality, they were the primary victims of such policies.
We are seeing a lot of Russian conspiracy theories, particularly those rooted in Soviet disinformation tactics, which continue to shape narratives today. These aren’t just about Jews, but about how the Soviet Union—and now contemporary Russia—accuse others of doing exactly what they are doing first. This is partly because they believe everyone operates the way they do—that if they engage in certain actions, so must their adversaries. It is also a deliberate propaganda tactic, allowing them to deflect criticism by accusing others preemptively. Other authoritarian regimes and political groups have now adopted the same approach worldwide.
One prominent example of this is the claim that Jews are involved in genetic engineering projects to manipulate global populations or to create biological advantages exclusive to Jewish people. This surfaced heavily during COVID-19 when conspiracy theorists falsely claimed that the virus somehow spared Ashkenazi Jews. Robert F. Kennedy Jr., despite positioning himself as pro-Israel, was among those spreading this baseless theory. The irony is that he now holds influence over public health discussions despite having peddled such unscientific and antisemitic narratives.
Jacobsen: I often discuss these issues with Muslim, Jewish, and secular friends, many of whom are highly qualified in geopolitics, Jewish affairs, and related fields. These individuals possess deep knowledge in their respective fields. Yet, despite their expertise, we all arrive at the same frustrating conclusion: the sheer stupidity of it all. Every day brings new exasperating conspiracies; no matter how absurd they get, they keep spreading.
And if you think it stops there, it doesn’t. Some conspiracy theorists take it even further, claiming that Jews were not just immune to COVID-19 but actively created bioweapons targeting non-Jewish populations. This is an escalation of the earlier claim—suggesting that Israel has developed bioweapons specifically designed to target certain ethnic groups.
Tsukerman: This theory is directly linked to Soviet disinformation and follows the classic KGB playbook. This particular bioweapon conspiracy theory is a Soviet creation, which has been actively disseminated across the Muslim and Arab world, as well as other regions where the Soviet Union once had substantial ideological influence. It has resurfaced in different forms but follows the same core structure—a fabricated accusation used to delegitimize and vilify Jewish communities.
Another longstanding genetic conspiracy theory is the Khazar theory. This false claim, which is extremely common in the Arab and Muslim world, alleges that Ashkenazi Jews are not “real Jews” but rather descendants of the Turkic Khazars. Some extremists use this theory to argue that modern Jews have no legitimate claim to Jewish ancestry or Israel.
While it is true that a small group of Khazars converted to Judaism in the medieval period, this has no connection to the mainstream Jewish population. Jewish law permits converts from any ethnic background. Once someone converts, they are fully Jewish—just like those born into Jewish families. The Khazar theory is a deliberate attempt to delegitimize Jewish identity and their historical connection to the Middle East. It is also an attempt to undermine the argument for Jewish indigeneity in Israel despite overwhelming genetic and historical evidence showing that even Ashkenazi Jews share deep Middle Eastern ancestry.
Then there is the particularly bizarre claim that Jews have genetically modified their DNA for intelligence, longevity, or financial success. This conspiracy suggests that Jewish success is not due to cultural or historical factors but instead to deliberate genetic manipulation—implying sinister, unnatural motives behind Jewish achievements.
At its core, this conspiracy theory is driven by envy. It echoes classic antisemitic stereotypes, portraying Jews as hyper-intelligent, manipulative, and controlling. It is far from a benign narrative—it is actively harmful and promotes dangerous misconceptions.
Fortunately, not many people take this idea seriously—at least, not yet. But in today’s digital age, anything can be amplified. The risk is that such conspiracies fuel hate crimes, violence, and targeted attacks against Jewish communities. These theories are actively promoted by neo-Nazi groups, white supremacists, extremist online forums, and, of course, Russian state-run media.
Some Russian-backed media outlets have specifically spread the false claim that Jewish genetic manipulation is tied to political control. This follows a familiar pattern, where Russia amplifies and exports antisemitic conspiracy theories to destabilize societies and sow distrust. These fabrications serve political agendas but can have real-world consequences, especially when they inspire violence and systemic discrimination.
The “Jewish energy vampire” conspiracy theory is yet another variation of longstanding antisemitic myths, which portray Jews as parasitic, exploitative, and draining the resources of others. This concept has been recycled repeatedly, and guess who loved this version of it? Hitler. He described Jews as vermin and framed them as exploitative parasites. However, in his case, he meant it literally, not just metaphorically.
The energy vampire narrative takes this further, diving into occult conspiracies found in both Nazi ideology and Soviet-era disinformation. Some extremists and conspiracy theorists believe in the literal concept of an energy vampire—someone who drains life force or spiritual energy from others. This belief has deep roots in Nazi Germany and the Soviet Union. After the collapse of the USSR, these ideas reemerged in Russia’s post-Soviet instability.
After the Soviet Union broke apart, there was an explosion of pseudoscience and frauds posing as spiritual healers. A prime example is Anatoly Kashpirovsky, a psychic healer who claimed to energize water by staring at it. People were encouraged to drink this “charged” water to heal illnesses. This sounds absurd, but I saw these people in action—it was a real phenomenon.
On the opposite side of the spectrum, if some charged water with good energy, there had to be energy vampires—people who drained energy with bad mojo. These ideas morphed into broader conspiracy culture, blending with occult narratives and modern internet-driven myths that thrive in conspiracy forums and social media spaces.
The roots of this conspiracy go back to the medieval blood libel—one of the oldest antisemitic myths in history. Jews were falsely accused of kidnapping and draining the blood of Christian children for ritual purposes. The “energy vampire” claim is simply a modernized version of this lie, arguing that Jews metaphorically drain the life force of non-Jews.
Today, antisemitic conspiracy theorists claim that Jews drain nations through financial manipulation, banking control, or globalist agendas. These accusations are often directed at figures like the Rothschilds or professions with significant Jewish representation, such as lawyers, psychologists, and doctors.
Some conspiracy theorists merge occult symbolism with antisemitism, creating paranormal adaptations of old myths. They claim that Jews are not only energy vampires in a metaphorical sense but also spiritually or psychically draining the life force of others. And, of course, we have David Icke, who popularized the reptilian shapeshifter conspiracy—another wild antisemitic claim.
According to Icke, much of the Jewish elite and their allies possess supernatural energy-draining abilities. Honestly, where was this guy all my life? He should be making Hollywood horror films, not spewing nonsense conspiracy theories.
Many people think QAnon is just about child sex trafficking and Pizzagate, but in reality, it has absorbed and adapted antisemitic myths into New Age spiritual frameworks.
QAnon followers believe in a vast network of global elites, and their ideas go far beyond claims about pedophiles in Hollywood and Washington. Some insist that Hollywood bankers and media moguls are part of a life-force-draining elite, echoing classic antisemitic propaganda repackaged for the digital age.
This is no longer just about accusing people of sex crimes—now it’s about accusing them of being energy vampires. This claim is completely dehumanizing, reinforcing the ignorance, conspiracy thinking, and paranoia that fuels radicalization.
Historically, these types of accusations have led to pogroms, expulsions, and genocides. What’s particularly dangerous now is how these ideas have merged with occult and paranormal themes, making them more appealing to broader audiences—not just traditional hate groups and far-right extremists but also New Age spiritualists, UFO believers, and conspiracy enthusiasts.
These narratives mainstream antisemitism beyond the usual hate groups, drawing in people who may not initially hold antisemitic beliefs but become indoctrinated through exposure to these conspiracy-driven subcultures.
And that’s the real danger: once antisemitic myths enter alternative communities, they gain legitimacy among people who don’t see themselves as racists or extremists. This allows old hate to be repackaged for new audiences, keeping antisemitic conspiracies alive for yet another generation.
Jacobsen: The first time I heard this was as a joke—a risky joke, nonetheless—in a recent Dave Chappelle comedy special on Netflix. He mentioned “space Jews” as part of a routine. Where does this come from?
Tsukerman: Chappelle used the phrase “space Jews” as a joke, making a sideways commentary about Israel and Palestine. It was a play on words, referencing Jews and space travel, but with an underlying political message. Some took it as a lighthearted jab, while others saw coded language reinforcing antisemitic stereotypes.
Regarding the concept behind the joke, Chappelle references a sci-fi movie trope—one where an oppressed group leaves their homeland, gains advanced technology, and returns to reclaim it. He applied this idea to Jewish history and Israel’s establishment, making the argument that Jews “left,” modernized, and then returned and took over everything.
The problem with this analogy is that it reinforces classic antisemitic stereotypes—depicting Jews as secretive, powerful, controlling, and manipulative. The Israel-Palestinian parallel in the joke played into the common misconception that Israel was an all-powerful military force crushing an underdog when, in reality, Israel’s early survival was far from assured.
The historical context matters. At the time of Israel’s establishment, multiple Arab armies attacked from all sides. The Arab states actively opposed the creation of a Palestinian state, not because they supported Palestinians, but because they did not want Israel to exist at all.
Meanwhile, Israel received little outside help. The Czechoslovak government provided some weapons, later France became an ally, and only much later did the United States become Israel’s strongest supporter. Israel was militarily outnumbered at its founding but benefited from better strategy and organization. At the same time, the Arab forces were highly disorganized.
So, the idea that Israel was an overwhelming force from the start is historically inaccurate. That’s why some Jewish groups found Chappelle’s joke misleading, if not outright harmful.
Chappelle later claimed he was not being antisemitic, but the joke sparked controversy because many saw it as dog-whistling—using coded language to convey antisemitic stereotypes without stating them outright.
This led to a broader debate about intent versus impact. Was Chappelle actively spreading antisemitic ideas, or was he provoking discussion through satire? Even if he didn’t mean harm, did his words reinforce dangerous conspiracy theories?
Jewish organizations largely viewed the joke as, at best, distasteful and insensitive and, at worst, perpetuating harmful stereotypes. Meanwhile, free speech advocates defended him, arguing that comedians should be able to challenge societal issues.
Netflix stood by Chappelle, continuing to support his specials, but the free speech argument here is not about whether he had the right to say it—of course, he did. The real question is whether he used stereotypes instead of thoughtful critique to discuss a real conflict.
Was he helping free speech or promoting misinformation and reinforcing negative stereotypes? That was the bigger issue.
That’s why “space Jews” became a flashpoint in debates about antisemitism, free speech, and the role of comedy in social critique. It raised questions about which jokes are appropriate, which are antisemitic, and which are harmless ribbing based on cultural archetypes.
Some argued that the joke was provocative but valid, while others believed it was dangerous and contributed to antisemitism.
What would be most interesting, though, is if anyone has measured the impact of that joke on public attitudes toward Jews and Israel. Did it increase antisemitic beliefs? Did it reinforce stereotypes? Without hard data, it isn’t easy to gauge the real-world consequences beyond immediate backlash and commentary from advocacy groups.
Shortly after the “space Jews” controversy, Chappelle hosted Saturday Night Live in November 2022 and addressed Kanye West’s antisemitic comments. Kanye West is unquestionably antisemitic—his statements about Jews align directly with classic antisemitic tropes. The only people who downplayed his remarks were his staunchest supporters, like Candace Owens.
During his SNL monologue, Chappelle referenced Kanye’s antisemitic rants, which included accusations about Jewish control of media and finance. These ideas aren’t new—they are deeply rooted in centuries-old antisemitic propaganda. And yet, rather than directly condemning Kanye, Chappelle’s monologue walked a fine line, making light of Jewish influence in media while mocking how openly Kanye said it. This divided public opinion again. Some saw it as calling out antisemitism, while others believed he was normalizing it by laughing it off.
This remains a key example of how comedy can blur the line between critique and harmful reinforcement. Whether Chappelle intended it or not, his remarks became part of a larger conversation about how antisemitic narratives spread, evolve, and become mainstreamed through cultural discourse.
These are mainstream examples of classic antisemitism. Chappelle mocked Kanye’s approach, opening his monologue by acknowledging antisemitism in all its forms before saying, “And that, Kanye, is how you buy yourself some time.”
He then joked that Kanye had broken the rules of show business, implying that openly criticizing Jewish influence leads to consequences. Some viewed this as a satirical critique of antisemitic conspiracies, while others believed he was reinforcing and endorsing them.
There was also a broader debate about how Hollywood handles antisemitism compared to other forms of bigotry. Some critics argued that Hollywood is more permissive toward antisemitism, citing how figures like Mel Gibson—who made overtly antisemitic remarks—were eventually allowed to return. At the same time, those accused of racism against Black or other marginalized groups often faced permanent ostracization.
Many Jewish organizations, including the Anti-Defamation League (ADL), criticized Chappelle for normalizing the idea that Jews control industries. Others argued that Chappelle was provocative, not hateful, using comedy to expose contradictions.
Regardless, Netflix continued to support Chappelle, as we know. But figures like Simon Howard saw his remarks as part of a growing normalization of antisemitic rhetoric. As for Kanye West, I don’t think I need to recite the full litany of pro-Hitler, anti-Jewish threats, and conspiracy-laden rants he has made in recent years.
He has gone on multiple antisemitic tirades, both in person and online. On Twitter (now X), he infamously threatened to go “DEFCON 3” on Jewish people and repeated banking and media conspiracies. He praised Hitler and the Nazis during an interview with Alex Jones. This is another example of the thin line between satire, comedy, entertainment, and conspiracy theories.
As we know, Alex Jones lost a massive lawsuit filed by Sandy Hook families after he spread conspiracy theories denying the shooting. The consequences for West, however, were mixed.
Yes, there were major financial and industry repercussions—many companies cut ties with him, including Adidas, Balenciaga, and talent agencies. However, some argued that these actions were not taken as a moral stance against antisemitism but rather as a business risk response to his controversial and indefensible hate speech.
Meanwhile, West remained popular, continued to do business, and was renormalized by Elon Musk, who allowed him back on Twitter/X after initially banning him. Despite the fallout, he eventually returned to the public sphere, making similar remarks again.
This suggests that the consequences were not as severe as Chappelle had implied in his monologue.
Jacobsen: Okay, so, what about Hollow Earth theory and the claim that Jews have subterranean secret underground cities where they hoard treasure? That’s what I’m talking about—pure sci-fi nonsense repackaged as antisemitic conspiracy. Some versions of the Hollow Earth theory go even further, claiming that Jews are the descendants of an ancient underground race that secretly controls human civilization from beneath the Earth’s surface. There are various Hollow Earth conspiracies, some blending metaphysical and occult beliefs.
Tsukerman: Certain theories involve reincarnation, artificial birth, and genetic manipulation, tying into pagan and neo-pagan mythology. Others merge these ideas with modern fears about cloning, artificial wombs, and DNA hacking, claiming that Jews are behind these technologies—much like conspiracy theories about genetic modification for intelligence or financial success.
So essentially, the same antisemitic tropes keep getting recycled, but with a sci-fi, paranormal, or New Age twist.
Alternative history and hidden civilizations—basically, Jews are woven into almost every conspiracy theory, no matter how absurd. The subterranean conspiracy theory is one of the more widespread ones, claiming that Jews operate in hidden underground networks to control global events.
This idea traces back to Hitler’s propaganda, where he compared Jews to vermin, portraying them as creatures that live in tunnels, scurry underground, and hide from daylight—a dehumanizing stereotype designed to justify persecution. Over time, this evolved into myths about Jews secretly hoarding wealth and conducting sinister activities below the surface.
In medieval Europe, Jews were falsely accused of living in underground tunnels to carry out secretive financial manipulations and blood libel rituals. The image of Jews sitting in basements counting gold coins became a widespread stereotype, reinforcing the idea that they operated outside public view while exerting secret influence.
During the Nazi era, propaganda expanded this narrative, portraying Jews as a hidden force controlling governments and economies. Nazis even claimed that Jews had secret underground bunkers or bases, using this to fuel wartime propaganda. But guess who had underground bunkers?
Jacobsen: Hitler himself.
Tsukerman: His underground bunker system spanned across Europe, and he spent his final days hiding in one in Berlin.
Today, QAnon and far-right extremists claim that Jewish elites use underground tunnels for trafficking, wealth hoarding, and secret societies. But guess who has been involved in human trafficking?
Figures like Andrew Tate and those associated with Jeffrey Epstein. It is important to note that Epstein’s network wasn’t politically one-sided—his visitors included Bill Clinton, Donald Trump, Prince Andrew, and others from across the political spectrum. These people were well-known public figures, not hidden elites.
Yes, Epstein was Jewish, and some conspiracy theorists tried to link him to Mossad. Still, in reality, his operation appears to have been a self-serving blackmail scheme targeting wealthy individuals—not part of any grand Jewish conspiracy.
Jacobsen: Now we move to the reptilian shapeshifter story, which blends Jews, their so-called allies, and reptilian overlords controlling subterranean bases and secret underground cities.
What baffles me is how much of this originates from one man—David Icke. He has somehow absorbed the strangest conspiracy theories from history and combined them into one overarching narrative. It’s almost as if he researched every bizarre accusation ever made against Jews or secret societies and decided to compile them into a single unified myth.
Tsukerman: At this point, I’m starting to wonder if David Icke is even a real person. His name appears behind almost every outlandish conspiracy theory of the modern era.
In the Middle East, propaganda has accused Jews of digging underground tunnels for espionage or sinister religious purposes. But guess who builds underground tunnels?
Terrorist organizations like Hamas and Hezbollah. They actively use underground tunnels for smuggling weapons, transporting militants, and carrying out attacks—exactly the kind of activity they accuse Jews of doing.
Jacobsen: Now, coming back to Hollow Earth and occult theories, there is a myth claiming that Jews are part of an ancient subterranean race or that they maintain secret underground societies.
These theories blend sci-fi, New Age mysticism, and antisemitism, making them popular in conspiracy forums. While they aren’t yet mainstream, they are growing—and given how quickly online extremism spreads, it’s only a matter of time before they gain wider traction.
Tsukerman: The problem is that these myths do more than sound ridiculous. They reinforce the usual stereotypes about Jewish secrecy and manipulation, feeding into far-right extremism and terrorist radicalization.
Jacobsen: And that’s where the real danger lies—these theories aren’t just harmless internet nonsense. They have inspired real-world violence. Some have even been cited in manifestos of extremists who believe in a global Jewish cabal. Now, here’s an interesting linguistic question—why do the words “sinister” and “cabal” keep appearing in these conspiracies?
Tsukerman: The word “sinister” appears because these conspiracies are designed to sound shadowy, vague, and ominous. It’s not just about something being illegal—it’s about implying ulterior motives that can’t be easily proven or disproven. That’s what makes them so powerful for conspiracy theorists.
Jacobsen: And “cabal”?
Tsukerman: “cabal” comes from the Kabbalah, Jewish mysticism. Over time, it was co-opted by conspiracy theorists, who use it to describe a secretive, all-powerful Jewish group running the world. It’s deliberately vague, which is what makes it so enduring. No evidence is required because the accusation is built on secrecy and ambiguity.
It’s all about creating an enemy that is both invisible and everywhere at once—a boogeyman people can blame for anything. A cabal is a small group that controls large swaths of powerful institutions. Conspiracy theorists obsess over secretive groups, particularly tight-knit ones because they imply an extreme concentration of power in the hands of a few conspirators.
A lot of these theories are just re-adaptations of classic antisemitic tropes, but conspiracy theorists keep inventing more creative interpretations. Some have even claimed that the dwarves in Tolkien’s Lord of the Rings are a coded Jewish stereotype due to their focus on craftsmanship, gold, and isolation from other societies. I don’t find that argument convincing, but it’s interesting how deeply people read into these things.
Jacobsen: The New Messiah and the Anti-Messiah. The theory goes like this: Jews are supposedly plotting to install a false messiah to deceive the world or are secretly working with the Antichrist to bring about the end times. In other words—they can’t win either way.
Tsukerman: That’s right. No matter what, they’re framed as the villains. The “Jewish Antichrist” and “Jewish Anti-Messiah” myths take Christian eschatology and apocalyptic literature and twist them with antisemitic conspiracy theories.
There’s a huge difference between Jewish and Christian beliefs about the Messiah and the end times. Still, conspiracy theorists weaponize these differences to cast Jews as agents of deception or demonic forces. Essentially, they position Jews as the opposition to the “true” Messiah, preventing Jesus’ return.
Historically, these claims were used to justify discrimination and violence. The original Christian idea of the Antichrist described him as a false messiah who deceives humanity before the Second Coming of Christ. Some medieval Christian interpretations falsely linked the Antichrist with Jews, claiming he would be a Jewish religious or political leader who misleads the world.
From a Jewish perspective, the Messiah is not Jesus or a supernatural figure. Instead, he is a human leader, a Jewish king from the Davidic dynasty, expected to restore the Jewish monarchy in Israel.
In Jewish tradition, when the Messiah arrives, Jews worldwide will return to Israel. After wars and turmoil, the world will enter an era of peace under this leader’s reign. There is no supernatural component—just a restoration of monarchy with a benevolent ruler.
This completely differs from the Christian concept, which portrays the Messiah as divine and ushering in the world’s end.
Medieval Christian texts accused Jews of rejecting Jesus and “preparing” a false messiah, an idea that Christian theologians like Martin Luther later obsessed over. Luther wrote extensively about Jews aligning with the Antichrist and helping to prepare for his arrival.
This shows how old these ideas are. Throughout history, they were used to justify pogroms, expulsions, and forced conversions.
The Protocols of the Elders of Zion further reinforced these ideas, portraying Jewish elites as working toward world domination under a false messianic figure. This book blended multiple antisemitic myths into one, creating a bizarre mix of medieval theology, secret societies, and political conspiracy theories.
And now, far-right Christian nationalist movements have recycled these ideas, claiming that Jewish leaders and movements are preparing for Antichrist rule. Of course, nobody can define exactly what this would look like. They say, “Jews are aligned with Satan,” and leave it at that.
In Jewish tradition, there is no “Antichrist” in the Christian sense, but there is a parallel concept in Jewish apocalyptic texts—a figure known as Armilus.
Armilus is a false messiah who opposes the true Jewish messiah, Mashiach ben David. “Mashiach” is a title, not a name—the name given in later rabbinic texts is Menachem.
In some versions, Armilus is depicted as a corrupt ruler or a deceiver who gains power before being overthrown by the Jewish messiah. However, in Christian depictions, the Antichrist is almost always tied to Jewish identity—while in Jewish sources, he is not. Jewish texts often depict him as a foreign leader or supernatural figure who misleads people under pretenses.
So, once again, we see Christian theology repurposed as an antisemitic weapon rather than understanding Jewish traditions on their terms. The current wave of far-right Christian conspiracies, particularly among evangelical fundamentalist groups, claims that a future Jewish leader will be the Antichrist. They point to false interpretations of Israel’s role in prophecy, repackaging old religious antisemitism for the modern era.
And, of course—David Icke. Let’s remember that name. He is everywhere in these conspiracy theories. Whether it’s religious antisemitism, sci-fi narratives, or globalist conspiracies, his name keeps surfacing.
Other conspiracy theorists take this even further, claiming that Jewish politicians, bankers, and elites are advancing the Antichrist’s agenda. According to them, all Jewish influence is secretly working toward this goal.
How do they reconcile Christian eschatology with sci-fi conspiracies? That’s a good question. Maybe we should ask David Icke himself—I bet that would be an interesting interview.
But it’s not just Christian fundamentalists pushing this. QAnon and other conspiracy groups have latched onto these ideas, blending Christian end-times prophecies with their theories.
I initially thought QAnon was just about Pizzagate and sex trafficking conspiracies, but it turns out it’s so much bigger than that. They claim that Jewish globalists are preparing the way for an Antichrist figure, merging far-right Christian narratives with their own New World Order, Illuminati, and banking conspiracies. This creates an entirely new framework of paranoia.
The problem with these narratives is that they completely distort both Judaism and Christianity, turning them into tools for fearmongering and extremism. Instead of promoting genuine religious understanding, these conspiracies fuel persecution, spread antisemitic tropes, and incite hatred. There is no upside to any of this.
Jacobsen: And now, we reach one of the weirdest claims yet—that Jewish people control reincarnation. According to this bizarre theory, Jews decide who gets to return to Earth in new forms. They reincarnate in new forms to retain power while at the same time stealing or hijacking non-Jewish souls to prevent non-Jews from achieving spiritual enlightenment.
In this sinister plot, Jews supposedly trap souls in an endless cycle to maintain their dominance over the world. This is a wild combination of New Age mysticism, antisemitism, and science fiction.
Tsukerman: Believe it or not, it’s still rooted in classic antisemitic myths—just with a New Age twist instead of a Christian theological one. The claim is that Jews steal the identities or souls of non-Jews to further their secretive political agenda. Reincarnation, in this narrative, becomes a tool of control—a way for Jews to return in new forms while remembering their past lives, ensuring they stay in power across multiple lifetimes.
This ties into other tropes about alleged Jewish immortality, such as the legend of the Wandering Jew—a figure supposedly cursed to walk the Earth for thousands of years.
In conspiracy circles, Jews are often depicted as a secretive, unyielding group that stays in control for centuries, almost like Jewish vampires—or worse.
Jacobsen: And then there’s the “soul hijacking” claim. In this version of the conspiracy, non-Jews are reincarnated into Jewish bodies as part of a master plan for Jewish world domination. Essentially, Jews are depicted as supernatural parasites, using mystical and occult powers to manipulate human reincarnation. So once again, we see the same antisemitic themes repackaged in a different form—Jews as manipulative, parasitic, and controlling supernatural forces to retain power.
Tsukerman: There is also the cultural and spiritual hijacking conspiracy, which claims that Jews use reincarnation to infiltrate other cultures and steal the essence of other religions. This distorts traditional Jewish teachings, particularly Jewish mystical traditions such as Kabbalah, which do have concepts of reincarnation but in very specific ways.
In Jewish tradition, reincarnation is not about power or control but about free will and moral improvement. Jews do not remember their past lifetimes because doing so would negate their ability to make independent moral choices in their current lives. The purpose of reincarnation is to elevate the soul through moral refinement—correcting past transgressions, making better choices, and spiritually advancing.
In this view, people may reincarnate to achieve personal growth and repair past mistakes. However, the key element is that they do not remember their previous lives, which ensures they can make independent moral choices without being influenced by past identities.
As you can see, this is completely different from the twisted narratives found in conspiracy theories. These false ideas merge New Age mysticism and pagan beliefs with conspiracy culture, blending spiritual and mystical elements with political paranoia.
Some conspiracy theories combine and compound multiple supernatural ideas—including soul-switching, shape-shifting, and soul-trapping. These ideas are central to David Icke’s reptilian conspiracies, but now they are being specifically applied to Jews.
Needless to say, this is dehumanizing, bizarre, and perpetuates dangerous stereotypes. It fits within extremist ideologies, further radicalizing those prone to believing in conspiracy theories and increasing the risk of real-world violence.
Beyond that, it distorts spiritual understanding and misleads people about actual Jewish beliefs. It takes reincarnation—a concept found in multiple religious traditions—and weaponizes it for hate, division, and fanaticism, transforming it into a paranoid and absurd narrative.
Jacobsen: Now, onto one of the strangest claims yet—that the Rothschild family secretly owns the moon. The theory alleges that the Rothschilds hold secret elite meetings on the moon, using hidden technology and a global surveillance system to control humanity. Some even claim this is connected to Israel’s lunar space missions, which are supposedly an attempt to reclaim an ancient Jewish colony on the moon.
Tsukerman: This is complete nonsense, but you can see how it evolved from existing Rothschild conspiracy theories.
The Rothschild family has long been falsely accused of controlling global wealth, politics, and media, even though their influence today is nowhere near what it was centuries ago. Most members of the Rothschild family are not even Jewish anymore. Yet, conspiracy theorists continue to depict them as puppet masters secretly controlling the world.
The idea behind the “moon ownership” theory is that the Rothschilds have extended their global wealth and influence beyond Earth.
But guess who is trying to expand their off-world real estate? Not the Rothschilds—but Elon Musk. I do not see the Rothschilds in the space business, but Elon Musk is. This entire conspiracy ties into space-related paranoia, climate conspiracies, and extraterrestrial myths. Some claim that the Rothschilds secretly colonized the moon to expand their wealth and influence despite zero evidence of any human existence on the moon beyond the Apollo missions.
And, of course, this conspiracy also intersects with moon landing denialism. Some of the same people who believe the U.S. never landed on the moon now claim that the Rothschilds were the first to colonize it.
It even blends into SpaceX and moon colonization fantasies, particularly those surrounding Elon Musk, where wealthy elites are imagined to have exclusive access to outer space resources for personal gain.
The pattern is clear—these conspiracies continually recycle old antisemitic tropes, mix them with modern fears about technology, space exploration, and global control, and create elaborate fictions to justify their paranoia.
Is there someone else who fits these descriptions? Because, once again, it’s not the Jews or the Rothschilds. So, in many of these cases—though not all—there is a deep element of psychological projection. This is a deliberate reversal of reality, similar to what we’ve seen in Soviet and even some Nazi conspiracy theories.
Soviet intelligence literally and deliberately projected their actions onto their adversaries, accusing them of doing the things they were guilty of. But they aren’t the only ones.
They exported this tactic around the world. It’s so widely adopted that it’s hard to say whether Russian intelligence is still driving these narratives or has become common practice because it works so well. Regardless, the result is the same—deflect attention from those engaging in manipulation while fabricating wild stories about Jews.
Yes, exactly. But let’s be clear—no Jewish real estate is on the moon. There are satellite images, photographs, and extensive lunar research, but none convinces conspiracy theorists. They continue to claim that Jews secretly own the moon and control hidden lunar resources.
All right, now onto another absurd theory—that Jews control the Internet itself and are working on uploading their consciousness into machines, creating eternal digital rulers who will dominate the world forever.
This conspiracy merges science fiction with supernaturalism and recycles antisemitic myths in a technological context.
Guess who is trying to create the Singularity?
Hint: It’s not the Jews.
Yet, the idea of Jews controlling the Internet persists. Conspiracy theorists claim that elite families in the tech industry secretly control the Internet’s infrastructure, content, and the flow of information.
Yes, Mark Zuckerberg is Jewish, but he’s among the few Jewish figures in tech leadership. Most of the top leaders in Silicon Valley are not Jewish at all, so it’s unclear who these conspiracy theorists even think they’re talking about.
One of their most ridiculous claims is that Jews engineered the World Wide Web itself to gain invisible control over global communication.
If that’s the case, maybe they should take it up with Al Gore since he famously claimed to have “invented the Internet.” I’d love to see those two groups debate each other. Of course, historical facts completely contradict this narrative. The Internet development involved a diverse group of engineers, researchers, and institutions, none of whom were part of any secret globalist conspiracy.
Now, let’s talk about the AI and mind-uploading conspiracies. Various scientists and theorists have explored the concept of merging human consciousness with technology, but no one has made more progress in this area than Elon Musk—once again, a non-Jewish figure.
His company, Neuralink, is developing brain-computer interface technology. It aims to help disabled individuals regain movement and potentially enhance human cognitive abilities.
But let’s be clear—Neuralink is not unique. Several competing projects are working toward similar goals, including non-invasive brain-computer interfaces. None of these projects are anywhere near achieving “mind-uploading” or digital immortality.
Yes, some researchers have speculated about the possibility of preserving consciousness through AI, but nothing remotely close to this exists. And yet, conspiracy theorists claim that Jews are trying to upload their consciousness into machines, ensuring perpetual control over the world. The idea of mind control through technology is far-fetched, especially considering that AI is nowhere near as intelligent as many assume.
Merging human consciousness with machines is an incredibly complex challenge, far beyond the capabilities of current AI models.
Jacobsen: And now, we move to another conspiracy theory involving cryptocurrencies. Some conspiracy theorists claim that Jews created Bitcoin, Ethereum, and other cryptocurrencies as a global trap. Satoshi Nakamoto, the pseudonymous creator of Bitcoin, might be a Jewish figure working within a secret cabal to undermine the global economy. Of course, this theory makes no sense, considering that Satoshi Nakamoto’s identity remains unknown and that cryptocurrency was designed as a decentralized system free from traditional financial controls.
Tsukerman: Ironically, cryptocurrency is often promoted by libertarians and anti-establishment groups—many of whom are the same people spreading antisemitic conspiracy theories.
The idea that Jews are behind cryptocurrencies contradicts itself because conspiracy theorists also claim that Jews control traditional banking. If true, why would they deliberately create an alternative financial system that weakens their grip on global finance?
This proves that these conspiracy theories are not logically consistent—they exist purely to justify antisemitic narratives.
So, to summarize:
- Jews do not control the Internet.
- Jews are not behind the Singularity.
- Jews are not secretly uploading their consciousness into machines.
- Jews did not create Bitcoin to undermine the global economy.
These conspiracies are nothing more than modern adaptations of centuries-old antisemitic tropes, repackaged with science fiction, AI paranoia, and financial fearmongering.
This is a newfangled conspiracy theory since Bitcoin and cryptocurrency are relatively recent inventions. But like every other modern conspiracy, it recycles old antisemitic stereotypes and adapts them for technological advancements.
It’s hilarious—and honestly, predictable—to see how medieval antisemitic myths are being repurposed for the digital age, used to explain away complex technological developments, while still carrying an antisemitic aftertaste.
One of the more absurd claims is that Satoshi Nakamoto, the pseudonymous creator of Bitcoin, is secretly Jewish. There is zero evidence to support this, but, of course, when has a lack of evidence ever stopped conspiracy theorists?
Jacobsen: And the claim that Jewish elites are using cryptocurrency to dismantle traditional financial systems in order to seize global economic control is self-contradictory for one very simple reason.
These same conspiracy theorists also accuse Jews of controlling traditional banking and financial systems—which generally oppose cryptocurrency due to its disruptive potential.
So, let’s get this straight:
- Jews allegedly control the banks.
- Jews also allegedly created cryptocurrency to destroy the banks.
- But Jews are also accused of wanting to accumulate power by controlling banks.
- And somehow, they’re sabotaging themselves to take over the system they already control?
Now tell me—does that make any sense?
Tsukerman: No, of course not. But conspiracy theories don’t have to be logical.
One of the defining traits of antisemitic conspiracy theories is that they do not need internal consistency—they only need to affirm the general narrative that Jews seek power at all costs, even if it means contradicting themselves along the way.
According to this theory, decentralized cryptocurrencies like Bitcoin were specifically designed to operate outside traditional banking systems, allowing Jewish elites to control global financial transactions secretly.
This is stupid and wrong on multiple levels. The whole point of Bitcoin and other disruptive technologies is that they are decentralized and untraceable, making it nearly impossible for any centralized group—including the so-called “Jewish elites”—to control them.
Jacobsen: They also claim that cryptocurrencies bypass government regulations and undermine traditional economic structures, but guess who benefits most from that?
Not Jews—but human rights activists in authoritarian countries, tech entrepreneurs, and, yes, criminal organizations and terrorists, most of whom are not Jewish at all. And yet, cryptocurrency is still framed as part of a Jewish-led globalist agenda. The irony is that cryptocurrency is the ultimate anti-globalist tool.
Tsukerman: Let’s not forget the bizarre contradiction within these conspiracy circles.
The same people who accuse Jews of accumulating power through traditional banks are often the same people who support cryptocurrencies. Many of the loudest pro-crypto advocates, including the tech libertarian crowd, are not Jewish at all.
So, what we’re seeing is two opposing conspiracy theories coexisting—one claiming that Jews control global banking and the other claiming that Jews created cryptocurrency to disrupt global banking.
That’s exactly why this entire theory is so bizarre and illogical. It also ties into the larger New World Order conspiracy, which claims that Jewish financiers are orchestrating a global economy under their control. But this completely ignores how blockchain technology works—decentralized, anonymous, and resistant to centralized control.
If anything, blockchain technology makes it harder for any single group—including Jewish elites, banks, or governments—to control global financial transactions.
This is one of the worst-designed conspiracy theories because it fails its logic test. There is zero evidence for it, and it exploits distrust in financial institutions and new technologies, attempting to merge two opposite fears into one narrative.
At the core, some people are more afraid of technological innovation than they are of traditional financial elites. Otherwise, they wouldn’t be pushing both of these contradictory ideas simultaneously.
That’s why I’d love to see the two groups of conspiracy theorists—the pro-banking and pro-crypto—debate each other and see who wins. If we’re lucky, they’ll cancel each other out.
Naturally, this fuels extremism, hatred, and confusion. But so far, the cryptocurrency conspiracy crowd is relatively small because, as I mentioned earlier, many of these people benefit from Bitcoin and embrace it for its decentralized nature.
Quite frankly, this may even be a fabricated conspiracy theory manufactured by certain elites who want to weaponize fear and create an artificial controversy to control the cryptocurrency narrative.
There are so many layers to this that I wouldn’t be surprised if some conspiracy theorists work against each other, feeding different versions of events to create paranoia and division.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Irina.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/05
Cordell Grant is a pioneering aerospace engineer, cryptography enthusiast, and well’s CEO and co-founder of QEYnet. With over 20 years of experience leading low-cost, high-performance satellite programs—including BRITE-Constellation, CanX-4&-5, and GHGSat-D—he has been at the forefront of innovative space technology. Cordell’s academic background spans a Bachelor of Science in Mathematics from Cape Breton University, a Bachelor of Engineering from Dalhousie, and a Master of Applied Science from the University of Toronto Institute for Aerospace Studies, Space Flight Laboratory. His passion for space exploration and secure communications fuels his pioneering satellite-based quantum key distribution work. Renowned for merging space and cryptography. Quantum key distribution (QKD) is a cryptographic method that uses quantum mechanics to exchange encryption keys securely. Unlike classical encryption, QKD transmits individual photons, making interception detectable. Ground-based QKD relies on fibre optics, which introduces signal loss, limiting its range. Space-based QKD, using satellites, enables global encryption key exchange without intermediaries. The Canadian Space Agency invests in QEYNet to counteract threats from quantum computing, which could break classical encryption. QKD secures long-term satellite communications by allowing in-orbit re-keying. This technology reduces costs, enhances security, and facilitates the development of scalable global quantum networks.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is quantum key distribution?
Cordell Grant: Quantum key distribution (QKD) is a cryptographic technology that has been in development for about 40 years, first proposed in the early 1980s. At its core, QKD enables the secure exchange of encryption keys using quantum mechanics.
Unlike classical key exchange methods, QKD transmits individual photons—quantum particles of light—from one party to another. Each photon is polarized in a specific but randomly chosen way.
Fundamental quantum principles ensure that any attempt to intercept these photons disturbs their state, making eavesdropping detectable. This property guarantees the security of the exchanged encryption keys, as unauthorized interception cannot go undetected.
QKD’s reliance on the laws of physics rather than computational complexity makes it exceptionally secure. However, a key challenge has been reliably transmitting single photons over long distances. This is where advancements in QKD technology, including space-based systems, play a crucial role.
Jacobsen: How does QKD technology enhance data security in space compared to ground-based methodologies? Is there a significant difference?
Grant: There is a significant difference between ground-based and space-based QKD. On the ground, photons are typically transmitted through fibre optic cables. While fibre optics are widely used for data transmission, they introduce signal loss. At the single-photon level, this loss becomes significant, limiting the effective range of QKD to about 100–150 kilometres without using trusted relay nodes.
If we attempt to scale QKD globally using fibre optics alone, we would require numerous intermediate stations to receive, store, and retransmit the encryption keys, which introduces security vulnerabilities.
Space-based QKD offers a more efficient solution. Instead of relying on fibre optics, photons are transmitted directly between ground stations and satellites. In space, there is no medium to absorb or scatter the photons, significantly reducing transmission loss over long distances.
A QKD-enabled satellite in orbit can establish secure key exchanges with multiple ground stations worldwide. By acting as a trusted intermediary, the satellite allows distant locations on Earth to securely share encryption keys without relying on fibre optic infrastructure or multiple ground-based relays.
This approach enhances global cybersecurity and enables highly secure communications for governments, financial institutions, and critical infrastructure.
Jacobsen: Why is the Canadian Space Agency investing $1.4 million in QEYnet?
Grant: The Canadian Space Agency has invested in this technology, specifically space-based quantum key distribution, for about 15 years. Canada has determined that this technology is valuable for various reasons.
The primary reason often cited for the importance of QKD, particularly space-based QKD, is the looming quantum threat posed by quantum computers. The basic premise is that quantum computers are advancing rapidly and becoming increasingly powerful. Once they reach a certain level of computational capability, they can break many encryption methodologies widely used worldwide.
A key example is public key encryption, which is used when logging into your bank’s website. This type of encryption relies on mathematical complexity, but that complexity applies only to classical computers. Quantum computers, however, are exceptionally efficient at solving the mathematical problems that underlie this encryption.
As a result, the encryption technologies we currently rely on are vulnerable to the advent of quantum computing. Since encryption is embedded in nearly every aspect of digital security, replacing existing systems with quantum-secure alternatives will take time.
QKD is one of the technologies being explored as a potential replacement. It ensures secure communication in preparation for what is sometimes called “Y2Q”—when quantum computers become powerful enough to break conventional encryption.
Jacobsen: Are we suggesting that Y2K wasn’t a real issue?
Grant: It was a real issue but wasn’t a major crisis because we prepared for it in advance. The hope with Y2Q is that the outcome will be similar—we will have taken proactive measures, preventing a catastrophic failure of banking systems or any other critical infrastructure by having quantum-secure systems in place ahead of time.
That’s the typical rationale for QKD. However, at QEYNet, our perspective is slightly different. Numerous applications already do not rely on the types of encryption at risk from quantum computers.
When you examine these applications, many employ surprising methods to distribute encryption keys—often involving the physical transport of key material. In the military, for example, encryption keys are frequently distributed using physical hardware, with large cryptographic devices transported globally to support troop deployments.
Similarly, diplomatic missions often carry physical encryption keys. A diplomat, for instance, might transport new key material to an embassy in a diplomatic pouch, which is protected from search and seizure at customs.
For our immediate use case—specifically, the one funded by the Canadian Space Agency—we are focused on securing communications for spacecraft.
Most people aren’t aware that, much like a spacecraft launches with all the fuel it will ever have, it also launches with all the encryption keys it will ever use. This is simply because transmitting new keys to an orbiting satellite is extremely difficult—and expensive.
Because satellite missions can last for decades, relying on conventional encryption methods, like those used in banking, may not be viable over the entire mission duration. The security of these encryption methods cannot be guaranteed indefinitely.
With QKD, we enable spacecraft to be re-keyed, making them more secure and fundamentally shifting the paradigm in the space industry. By offering QKD technology to other spacecraft providers, we help ensure their satellites remain protected throughout their operational lifespan.
Jacobsen: What are the benefits of successfully demonstrating space-based QKD technology?
Grant: Ultimately, we hope to prove that QKD works in space with this demonstration. Designing this hardware, testing it in a lab, or conducting field trials are just a few things. It’s entirely different to successfully execute QKD between Earth and an orbiting satellite 600 kilometres above.
We aim to demonstrate that all the analysis, mathematics, and testing done so far hold up in a real operational environment. It’s time to combine the pieces and prove we can achieve this in a compact system. The hardware that will be placed on the spacecraft is about the size of a two-litre milk carton. Yet, it will detect individual photons from 600 kilometres away.
Jacobsen: What cost challenges may arise with QKD technology in space? Any new technology tends to be more expensive than well-established alternatives with lower performance or efficiency.
Grant: Yes, there’s no doubt that launching anything into space is costly. One of the key differentiators of QEYNet is that we have deliberately worked to minimize these costs.
Many existing space-based QKD solutions are highly complex, driving up costs. We’ve taken two key steps to make our system more affordable, particularly for spacecraft manufacturers looking to secure their satellites.
First, we have placed the receiver in space rather than the transmitter. In QKD, the receiver is generally the more straightforward component. In contrast, generating individual, polarized photons is technically complex and requires significant data processing. Performing this photon generation onboard a spacecraft would be incredibly challenging due to limited resources such as power, processing capability, and weight constraints. Keeping the receiver in space significantly reduces the system’s complexity and cost.
Second, we have designed our system to eliminate many highly complex and resource-intensive components typically in QKD technology. Traditional QKD systems require highly sensitive detectors to measure individual photons. The most advanced detectors are designed for maximum efficiency, but they add to the overall cost and complexity of the system.
They need to be cooled to about minus 80 degrees Celsius, which requires extensive thermal control technology onboard the spacecraft and large radiators to dissipate excess heat. Instead, we use less efficient detectors that operate at room temperature. This allows us to eliminate all the additional hardware and complexity associated with cooling systems.
Another challenge with these so-called “better” detectors is that they are fibre-fed. This means they require a fibre optic cable in front of them and all the light collected from 600 kilometres away must be precisely focused by a large telescope onto the tiny tip of the fibre. This process must be executed in a highly dynamic thermal environment with constant changes, adding to the system’s complexity.
By contrast, the detectors we use do not require fibre feeding. They have a larger detection area, allowing us to shine the light directly onto them, eliminating the need for fine-pointing mechanisms and complex optical alignment.
These design choices reduce the cost of the satellites we will ultimately deploy by at least an order of magnitude, making the technology significantly more affordable and accessible.
At the very least, our solution is much more efficient than the existing methods of encryption key distribution—such as physically transporting hardware and personnel worldwide. Traditional methods are not only expensive but also pose security risks. Given these factors, we are confident that our approach will remain cost-competitive.
Jacobsen: What might be the broader benefits of QEYNet’s demonstration for quantum networks?
Grant: As I’ve described, the immediate application is spacecraft security. Once we successfully demonstrate this capability, we will validate the first half of our initial vision, where a satellite performs QKD exchanges with two separate locations and acts as an intermediary between them.
In this trial, we aim to demonstrate the ability to facilitate key exchanges between Earth and an orbiting satellite and between two separate locations on Earth via the satellite. If we achieve that, it opens up a wide range of possibilities.
One of the longstanding challenges with quantum networks is the chicken-and-egg problem. The technology already exists to build quantum networks for localized areas, such as an urban region. In any given city, for instance, you could leverage existing fibre optic infrastructure to create a functional quantum network.
However, the real challenge is that a local quantum network has limited value if it cannot connect to other regions. If it remains isolated, communications are restricted only within that local area.
That’s where satellites come in. But simultaneously, those seeking funding for quantum satellites face a dilemma. They can only connect point to point, and there aren’t yet established networks to expand the user base.
So, who goes first? Do we build the satellites, hoping the networks will follow? Or do we build the networks, hoping the satellites will be developed? Nothing will move forward until we demonstrate that the satellite technology is viable.
That’s why proving this technology in space—showing that it is affordable, reliable, and secure—is the first step toward making quantum networks more common and enabling their growth.
QKD technology is not something every person worldwide will use anytime soon. However, if it becomes readily available over the existing fibre optic infrastructure, many applications could benefit from it.
Jacobsen: Cordell, thank you very much for your time today. I appreciate it. Thank you.
Grant: It was fun.
Jacobsen: Excellent. Thank you. Bye.
Grant: Bye.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/
A seasoned Musician (Vocals, Guitar and Piano), Filmmaker, and Actor, J.D. Mata has composed 100 songs and performed 100 shows and venues throughout. He has been a regular at the legendary “Whisky a Go Go,” where he has wooed audiences with his original shamanistic musical performances. He has written and directed nerous feature films, web series, and music videos. J.D. has also appeared in various national T.V. commercials and shows. Memorable appearances are TRUE BLOOD (HBO) as Tio Luca, THE UPS Store National television commercial, and the lead in the Lil Wayne music video, HOW TO LOVE, with over 129 million views. As a MOHAWK MEDICINE MAN, J.D. also led the spiritual-based film KATERI, which won the prestigious “Capex Dei” award at the Vatican in Rome. J.D. co-starred, performed and wrote the music for the original world premiere play, AN ENEMY of the PUEBLO — by one of today’s preeminent Chicana writers, Josefina Lopez! This is J.D.’s third Fringe; last year, he wrote, directed and starred in the Fringe Encore Performance award-winning “A Night at the Chicano Rock Opera.” He is in season 2 of his NEW YouTube series, ROCK god! J.D. is a native of McAllen, Texas and resides in North Hollywood, California. Tejano music shaped Mata’s artistic identity, influencing his career in music, acting, and filmmaking. As a founding figure, he dedicated himself to the genre, writing original music and pioneering the synthesizer sound that defined Tejano. He emphasizes its authenticity, contrasting it with inauthentic artists. Mata highlights Tejano’s broad reach, from weddings to festivals, and the emotional depth in its lyrics. He reflects on Tejano’s role in his journey, from early performances to navigating Hollywood, using intuition honed in the music industry. Despite challenges, he sees Tejano as an enduring legacy that inspires artists and audiences alike.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, it’s been a while. I want to discuss incorporating various elements to form a perspective on contemporary Tejano music. We discussed some of the major figures and families in Tejano music and the German and Mexican influences.
We also talked about being in Texas, making your way to California, and the difficulties there. People may know that you have a dual career in acting and music. Additionally, we discussed your long history of choir conducting.
How do these various elements—acting, choir conducting, directing, and producing with Lance and Rick in their long-standing Republican-Democrat debates—come together to influence Tejano? You have diverse skills in many areas, but your main focus has not always been Tejano music. Instead, your career has evolved, with Tejano music emerging as a central element.
J.D. Mata: Tejano music was like a birth in terms of my career. Learning to play the piano and guitar could be considered the “sperm,” while my first stage production in sixth grade could be the “egg.” I auditioned for the lead role in Funky Christmas, a musical Christmas program at Seguin Elementary in McAllen, and got the part. That was the moment where, metaphorically speaking, the sperm met the egg—where my journey as an entertainer truly began. But the “baby” was born when I started playing Tejano music professionally.
That experience informed everything. It was when I had to apply my musical skills—skills my dad taught me on the guitar, my piano abilities from the band, and my natural singing talent. I also had to incorporate my stage presence and acting experience because, as the frontman of a band, you are not just a musician—you are a performer.
It’s a production. There has to be charisma, animation, and energy. You must engage the audience, keep them excited, and make the performance come alive. Stagecraft is an essential part of that.
Beyond that, Tejano music is also a business. As the founder and leader of my Tejano band, I had to learn the business aspects—determining fair rates and managing finances. For example, what goes into setting the rate if we are hired to play a wedding? We must consider factors such as how much to pay the musicians, travel expenses, equipment costs, and venue requirements.
Obviously, any company CEO earns more than the employees because they assume more risk and have more at stake.
For me, it was about ownership and responsibility. I owned all the equipment—I had to buy it myself. I was the founder of the band and the writer of all the music. I assumed all the risk. It was my name on the business and on the music itself. It was my van that transported all the equipment. I was the one setting up everything before each show.
So, there’s that aspect of it. How much do the musicians get? What percentage do I get as the founder, lead singer, and band leader? Then, you also have to factor in gas expenses—how far are we travelling? That needs to be accounted for as well. How many hours are we playing? Many people think, “Oh, you’re only playing for two hours,” or, “We’re just hiring you for a one-hour performance.”
But they don’t consider the time it takes to drive to the venue, unload and set up the equipment, do the sound check, perform, break everything down, and then load everything back up. That’s where the rate comes from. These are principles I learned from my experience in Tejano music. Being an entertainer shaped everything I do now—as a filmmaker, actor, musician, and even as my publicist. I had to promote the band. I was often my own manager.
And through those experiences, I developed a strong intuition for spotting people who are not genuine—what I call “bullshit artists.” Whether it’s within the band or in the business side of the industry, there’s always one person who disrupts the harmony. It could be envy, entitlement, or just being disgruntled, but there’s always one person who ruins the synchronicity of the group. I’ve learned to recognize those patterns quickly.
All of this—my time as a Tejano artist, band leader, entrepreneur, and performer—has shaped me. It has guided my ability to navigate Los Angeles as an actor, filmmaker, choir director, and even dancer.
Most recently, I played at an Oscar afterparty in Beverly Hills. This guy came up to me and said, “Hey man, I love your look. Are you signed with anyone?” Because of my experience, I’ve developed an intuition for who is legit and who isn’t—something I honed in my Tejano days and continue to sharpen. This guy seemed legit. Sure enough, today, I met with him. He’s a film director, and he cast me in his movie.
Of course, it took effort. I had to drive all the way to Beverly Hills from North Hollywood. Before that, I had just played in Simi Valley. But that’s part of the hustle, and it’s all informed by my journey in Tejano music.
I played at an assisted living facility. I’m the ‘rock god of assisted living homes.’ Then, I drove to Beverly Hills and met with the director. I spent about three to four hours on the road, and I used a lot of gas, but I knew it would be worth it.
I could tell this guy was legit, and it played out that way. It’s interesting to analyze my Tejano experience and dissect how it has influenced everything I do. I’m still the same entertainer I was back in my Tejano roots. But now, I also recognize that there is a business aspect to what we do as artists.
As I told you earlier, when I started, Tejano music didn’t exist in the way we know it today. My first band was one of the pioneers of Tejano music. The name “Tejano” first became associated with our type of band, which featured a keyboard, synthesizer, and bass guitar. These instruments replaced the traditional horn section and accordion, which had previously defined the sound.
Different phases of my career incorporated various elements. At times, we included horns and trumpets. Still, for the most part, we were a genuine, bona fide Tejano band because we embraced the synthesizer sound as a key element of our music.
Jacobsen: Who were your influences as a pianist?
Mata: We didn’t have influences—we were the influencers. I was one of the first to form a Tejano band in 1981, and the genre itself didn’t gain recognition until around 1983 or 1985. When I was a senior in high school, the term “Tejano” still wasn’t widely used to define our style of music.
People ask what kind of music we played. The truth is we wrote our own material. We performed all original songs and adapted traditional standards—accordion-driven conjunto music, mariachi songs, and other regional influences—into Tejano music.
For example, if a melody was originally played on a trumpet or accordion, we translated it into a synthesizer line, which became a defining characteristic of Tejano music. Just as the accordion is synonymous with conjunto, and the trumpet is essential in orchestral or mariachi genres, the synthesizer became the signature sound of Tejano.
Because I developed that creative muscle early—starting in junior high, high school, and college—when I came to Los Angeles and couldn’t immediately find work as an actor, I instinctively created my own opportunities. It felt natural. I started making my own films just like we had created a genre from scratch.
I had already been a writer—first for music—so transitioning into filmmaking was a natural extension of what I had done since my early years.
That’s what I’ve been doing my whole life. I didn’t discover The Beatles until I was in college. I became a huge Beatles fan, but it wasn’t until college because I was playing Tejano music, man. I was doing my own thing. I was my own Beatles. I was Billy Joel.
I was rock, rock and roll, rhythm and blues, and Tejano music. That genre has had a huge impact on me and shaped who I am. I am one of the most interesting Mexican American entertainers and artists in the world.
Jacobsen: Your efforts in co-developing Tejano in its early days weren’t just about blending Mexican and German influences. They were about contributing to American music culture.
Mata: 100%. That’s interesting you say that, Scott. In the 1980s, when Tejano music was emerging, there was no Internet. There were small digital rumblings—bulletin board systems, early forms of online communication—but nothing like social media.
I remember my friend, Juan Mejia, who is now a dean at a university, telling me, “Man, you can talk to people around the world or in the U.S.” I was like, “What?” This was in 1985. But there was no widespread Internet, no way to instantly share music beyond local radio stations and word of mouth.
And where we lived in South Texas—Texas is huge. I grew up five miles from the Mexican border, way down south. The nearest big city was San Antonio or Austin, a five-hour drive. Corpus Christi was closer, but there was a lot of nothing between South Texas and the rest of Texas, let alone the rest of the U.S. And then you had Mexico.
So, we were our own country. We weren’t fully Mexican, but we weren’t fully American either. We were true Mexican Americanos—American Mexican Americans. And that was beautiful because it allowed us to create our own identity.
As you said, that identity has become authentic—a recognized and beautiful strand of American culture. I’d say I’m a part of that because I’m now sharing my movies and my music with a broader American audience.
And, of course, Selena.
She was the queen of Tejano music. The beauty that she brought from Mexican-American Tejano culture—the music, the melodies, the lyrics, the emotions—are intangibles that, when you listen to her, create feelings of euphoria. She is now woven into American culture. She was a real artist—a key figure, a peak voice in the development of Tejano.
Jacobsen: One other mission—you’ve talked about being able to identify not just the real ones but also the real ones by proxy. That is, identifying the bullshit artists. So, the nonreal ones—in more polite terms. When you sense bullshittery in artists, even in full Tejano presentation—people who think they have the right stuff but aren’t truly playing Tejano—what do you look for? What are your indicators?
Mata: That’s a good question. First of all, the instrumentation. I’m a purist. I’m a textualist.
I’m one of the founding fathers, baby, so you can’t bullshit me. If you’re going to play Tejano in its pure form, I don’t want to see a band consisting of just an accordion, bass, and guitar. That’s not a Tejano band. That’s panto music.
You cannot call yourself a Tejano artist if you have a big horn section without keyboards or synthesizers. I’m sorry—that’s not Tejano music. Authentic Tejano music must have a keyboard playing synthesizer lines in a jazzy, syncopated, harmonic way. That’s bona fide Tejano music. If you don’t have that, you’re not playing Tejano.
Now, I’m painting with broad strokes here, but I’ll say this: if you’re not from Texas, you’re not playing Tejano music. That being said, if you are from Texas and you’re Caucasian but play authentic Tejano music, then you are a Tejano artist.
Jacobsen: So, that’s your standard—Tejano music, exactly. It’s a big discussion—kind of like in the rap community, where people debate who should be accepted as a great artist or not. I’m not deeply involved in that world, so I can’t comment much. But I do know that hip-hop’s originators were DJ Kool Herc, Grandmaster Flash and the Furious Five, Afrika Bambaataa and the Soulsonic Force, and the Sugarhill Gang. So, in a way, you’re talking about yourself in those terms—vis-à-vis Tejano music.
Mata: Right.
Tejano music has experienced highs and lows. It has gone through a rough period over the last fifteen to twenty years.
And going back to spotting bullshittery—this is the real deal I’m giving you. These are thoughts and analyses I’ve never seen written anywhere. But I’m telling you now because it’s authentic.
One of the things about a true Tejano artist is that they will play anywhere. A real Tejano artist will play weddings, quinceañeras, church festivals, concerts—you name it. You’ll even see a Tejano artist performing at the freaking market.
Catholic War Veteran halls.
We play everywhere.
That’s what’s fascinating about Tejano artists—we can adapt. Meanwhile, a punk rocker or a thrash artist? They’re limited in where they can play. Tejano music is freaking homogeneous, man.
Tejano music can be played anywhere because of its danceable vibe. It’s not like rap, where some of the lyrics can be explicit. I don’t want to say raunchy, but they can be more aggressive.
Tejano music is different. It’s about emotions—wanting your girl back, but she doesn’t want to take you back. That’s authentic Tejano music.
It’s pure. It’s pure in its form. That’s why Selena brought it back to the forefront. One of the key ingredients of a genuineTejano artist is the lyrics.
Tejano’s lyrics carry a sense of wholesomeness. It’s not necessarily as poetic or verbose as a Bob Dylan song, but in terms of the message—it’s heartfelt and authentic. If you’re out here rapping about f**ing someone and claiming to be a Tejano artist, then you aren’t one.
Jacobsen: It’s like the difference between Slick Rick telling a story, Coolio’s Gangsta’s Paradise, or DMX narrating his experiences—versus modern rappers who pretend to be gangsters. They don’t live necessarily what they’re talking about. A lot of them are putting on an act.
I dated a Bolivian-Japanese person who had a deep appreciation for Karol G. She described Karol G’s music in a way that sounded similar to how you’re describing Tejano’s music. It wasn’t just quite romantic or sentimental—it carried a deep longing without being forlorn. It’s about evoking emotions without necessarily saying them directly.
Mata: Exactly—100%.
Jacobsen: That’s the poetic nature of it.
Mata: There’s an ethos to it, right? Ethos is tied to Tejano culture itself. It’s deeply Roman Catholic. That background informs the music, the values, and the way emotions are expressed. And Tejano music has impacted me to this day. I’m 59 years old now, and I started when I was 13. It’s been with me my entire life.
Jacobsen: How would you describe what Tejano means to you and what you mean to Tejano?
Mata: Tejano is part of my identity.
In terms of what’s important to me, my higher power—whom I call God—comes first. Then, my family. Then, my career.
And the birth of that career was Tejano music.
To me, Tejano is part of my existence.
Tejano music is part of everything I do. If it weren’t for Tejano music—if it wasn’t in my metaphorical genetic makeup as an artist—I wouldn’t be here in Los Angeles. That’s why I speak so affectionately about it and why I try to be as authentic as I can in this series. Tejano music isn’t just something I do—it’s in me. It’s in my blood. It’s part of me like an extra limb, an extra eye—an artistic eye that I was born with, that I grew into, that I helped shape. I was one of its founders, and that means something. It means love. It means passion. It even means hate—not hate in the literal sense, but in the sense that Tejano music has brought me pain. It has brought me anguish. Maybe that’s another discussion for another time, but Tejano has been the source of everything—joy, pain, struggle, success.
To answer the second part of your question—what Tejano means to me and what I mean to Tejano—I would say this: Tejano gave me everything, and I gave everything to Tejano. I was one of the founding fathers. Of course, there were many founding fathers, but I was there at the beginning. My music was on the radio. We played countless concerts, festivals, church events, and weddings. We played everywhere. And who knows who was in those audiences? Maybe some kid saw us and got inspired. Maybe my music influenced a young musician watching in the crowd. Maybe my piano band—my music—sparked something in someone. I don’t know. But I do know that I gave everything I had to it. Every dollar I made went back into the band. Every ounce of creativity I had was poured into my music.
I was so dedicated to Tejano music that I didn’t even listen to The Beatles until college. I was too busy creating Tejano music. I wasn’t just influenced by something—I was creating something. And what did I give back to it? Well, it’s not just me—we, the early pioneers of Tejano, gave everything. And the proof is in the fact that Tejano music still exists. It’s still here. It’s still thriving. The genre didn’t fade away—it grew. And I’m not saying this to be arrogant or grandiose. It’s just the truth. We were the founders. We played all over South Texas, from the Rio Grande Valley to San Antonio. I don’t know exactly who we impacted, but I know we did. Maybe one person. Maybe a hundred. Maybe a thousand. Maybe even performers who went on to have their own careers. Maybe fans who became lifelong lovers of the music.
And then, of course, there’s the other side of it—the struggles, the setbacks. We were so close to making it big. But, as I mentioned earlier, sometimes all it takes is one person to ruin the chemistry of a band. And that happened to us. One dimwit ruined what could have been something even bigger. That’s just how it goes sometimes. But the truth is, we were the seed that sprouted Tejano into something more. And we didn’t just grow—we pollinated. We spread our sound. We influenced future Tejano artists. We reached people who fell in love with the genre.
Jacobsen: Pollination.
Mata: Right. That’s a good way to put it. That’s a good way to end this. That’s enough for me. How about you?
Jacobsen: I agree.
Mata: I’ll see you then. Take care.
Jacobsen: See you then. Take care.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/04
Michael Ashley Schulman, CFA, is the Founding Partner and Chief Investment Officer (CIO) of Running Point Capital Advisors, a multifamily office overseeing global macro strategy, investment management, and impact assessments across public and private markets. Schulman highlights the MENA region’s shift toward sports investment as a key diversification strategy under Vision 2030 initiatives. With a 16.5% CAGR through 2030, investments in stadiums, esports, and global partnerships aim to boost tourism, media, and sponsorship revenues. Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Oman lead with privatization efforts, grassroots programs, and high-profile club stakes. While market immaturity and asset bubbles pose risks, community-driven initiatives and youth training programs enhance long-term growth. The region’s modernized sports landscape offers premium spectator experiences but faces over-commercialization, infrastructure concerns, and cultural tensions amid rapid transformation.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What is important to know about the MENA region regarding economic diversification?
Michael Ashley Schulman: I’ve commented a few times in the past about MENA and GCC development, though usually about U.S. markets. Vision 2030 is specifically a Saudi initiative begun nearly nine years ago in April 2016; but oil still accounts for nearly 3/4s of Saudi fiscal revenue To me, one of the most interesting diversification angles is the investment-cultural approach, especially with sports.
The MENA region is rapidly transforming its sports landscape—from high-profile events like the Qatar World Cup to strategic investments in premier clubs and leagues around the world—positioning itself as a powerhouse in global sports. With a projected CAGR of 16.5% through 2030, investors can look beyond the immediate glamour of marquee deals to the underlying drivers of economic diversification, tourism enhancement, and broader media and sponsorship opportunities, i.e., in ancillary sectors such as hospitality, technology, and consumer brands tied to sports experiences.
As long as valuations don’t outpace realistic projections there is a long runway here for growth, especially in the areas of aspirational youth-sports training camps for developed and emerging market parents that want their children to have the best physical and developmental opportunities in a world that is paradoxically getting glued to their smartphone and computer screens.
Jacobsen: How are MENA countries investing?
Schulman: Middle Eastern countries (notably Qatar, Saudi Arabia, and Oman) are channeling massive investments into sports as part of broader economic diversification strategies (e.g., Qatar National Vision 2030, Saudi Vision 2030, Oman Vision 2040). These initiatives aim to transform the region into global sports hubs, with projected market values (such as Qatar’s sports market reaching an estimated $3.7 billion by 2025) that signal strong growth potential.
State-of-the-art stadiums, training centers (like Aspire Zone in Qatar), sustainable sports facilities, and hosting landmark events (e.g., the FIFA World Cup 2022, upcoming FIFA World Cup 2034 bids, major international tournaments) enhances international visibility and offers investors a platform to tap into a global audience.
With substantial investments in digital technologies and esports ecosystems—ranging from broadcasting deals to purpose-built gaming arenas—the region is not only modernizing traditional sports but also capturing the interest of younger, tech-savvy audiences, which creates new revenue streams and opportunities for innovation-driven investments.
Initiatives like the privatization of sports clubs in Saudi Arabia and strategic partnerships (for example, Qatar’s stake in top European football clubs) provide a framework for sustainable revenue generation and risk sharing where such collaborations are designed to integrate global expertise and boost the competitiveness of domestic sports markets.
Investments that are coupled with community-driven initiatives (like the Generation Amazing Foundation and grassroots sports programs) promise not only financial returns but also measurable social impact which can be appealing to impact investors looking for sustainable, legacy-building projects.
Jacobsen: What about immaturity of the market?
Schulman: Market maturity is a concern—sports sectors in these regions are still developing, which can lead to volatility, lower liquidity, and limited historical performance data to inform valuations. There’s also the risk that overinvestment in sports could lead to asset bubbles if enthusiasm outpaces fundamental growth, especially if global sports media rights and sponsorship revenues do not materialize as projected.
Jacobsen: What about the ecosystem of provisions for sports fans there with this?
Schulman: For sports fans, the region’s transformation offers a comprehensive ecosystem of benefits including world-class venues hosting major events, enhanced digital and esports engagement platforms, robust youth development programs producing local talent, and community-focused initiatives that blend cultural heritage with global sports. This investment fueled integrated approach delivers both premium spectator experiences and deeper community connection, particularly resonating with younger audiences through modern facilities and digital innovation.
On the other hand, fans may face significant challenges including inconsistent infrastructure quality, over-commercialization threatening local sporting identity, logistical issues at major events, and social tensions arising from rapid cultural changes. These factors can impact the fan experience through overcrowding, safety concerns, and cultural conflicts, particularly when progressive initiatives clash with traditional values.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Michael.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/04
Forrest Webber is an entrepreneur and digital marketing expert, specializing in SEO, PPC, and home services. As the owner of Bear Brothers Cleaning, Fireplace Distributor, and SEO for Hotel, he builds and scales brands under Brother Brands. A former Tulane baseball player, he transitioned into business leadership and digital strategy. Skateboarding’s high-stakes nature and individuality set it apart from traditional sports. Its distinct culture, viral potential, and Olympic inclusion have expanded its reach. Webber notes that skateboarders should leverage social media to build personal brands, similar to YouTube golfers. Underground media and viral clips continue to shape public perception.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: What was the initial appeal of skateboarding culture?
Forrest Webber: Maybe not the culture, but the sport itself is what intrigued me. They’re putting their body on the line each run, it’s very high stake. In that level of flow state, you can pull off crazy feats, like they were in the Olympics.
Jacobsen: Since not deeply involved in skateboard culture, but with an interest in it,what aspects of the sport seem unique to you?
Webber: Their clothing choices is different than pretty much any other sport besides being similar to snowboarding. It really stands out when you’re used to watching other sports that have organized uniforms.
Jacobsen: How do you view skateboarding as evolving from a niche hobby to something in the Olympics?
Webber: People like to be entertained; if you provide value, people will watch.
Jacobsen: What makes skateboarding different than more traditional sports?
Webber: It doesn’t appear as organized as traditional sports because there aren’t teams (at least not popular ones notable by outsiders of the sport).
There don’t appear to be as many rules which fit the culture of skateboarding.
Jacobsen: What values does this sport inculcate and bring out in youth?
Webber: Any outside activity is good for kids. I ripsticked a lot as a teenager with my friends and had a great time doing it and challenging each other to go down taller and taller mountains.
Jacobsen: Are there any parallels between digital marketing in the hotel industry and the skateboarding world?
Webber: Skateboarders and hotels each have their own unique personality.
Jacobsen: What has been the role of underground and alternative marketing and media in the spread of different public perceptions of skateboarding?
Webber: I feel like my opinion has been shaped by what goes viral and, of course Tony Hawk.
Jacobsen: What digital marketing strategies should skateboarders use to make themselves the brand and maintain interest in the subculture and alternative sport?
Webber: They should be trying to go viral on social media every day. It seems like they could make more money from sponsorships and ad revenue than from the sport itself. This is similar to the rise in popularity of YouTube golfers.
Skateboarding is a very clippable sport which makes it easy (if you’re good) to make clips and push volume.
Jacobsen: What digital marketing strategies should skateboarders use to make themselves the brand and maintain interest in the subculture and alternative sport interesting to hundreds of thousands of people?
Webber: It was definitely interesting to watch in the Olympics, I am not sure if it’d have the same appeal if it was on ESPN2, for example. But that’s similar to almost all of the Olympic sports; it’s just a different feeling.
Jacobsen: Thank you for the opportunity and your time, Forrest.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen
Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2025/05/03
Paul Rice is the founder of Fair Trade USA. He discusses the transformative impact of fair trade on global supply chains, environmental sustainability, and consumer empowerment. Drawing from his experience in Nicaragua, where he founded the country’s first fair trade coffee cooperative, Rice highlights how fair trade boosts farmer income, supports education, and fosters transparency. He explains the business case for ethical sourcing—risk mitigation, supply chain resilience, and consumer demand—and addresses the need for independent certification amid rising greenwashing. His new book, Every Purchase Matters, emphasizes that consumers can shape a better world through everyday choices at the checkout.
Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Today, we are here with Paul Rice. He is the founder and former CEO of Fair Trade USA. He established the organization in 1998 after spending over a decade working with smallholder farmers in Nicaragua. Under his leadership, Fair Trade USA has become the leading certifier of Fair Trade products in the United States, partnering with more than 1,700 companies and retailers. Rice is also the author of Every Purchase Matters: How Fair Trade Farmers, Companies, and Consumers Are Changing the World. His work has been recognized with numerous honours. Paul, thank you for joining me today. I appreciate it.
Paul Rice: Scott, thank you so much: Happy to be here.
Jacobsen: So, what is the outline of the evolution of the Fair Trade movement?
Rice: I’m glad you called it a movement, because Fair Trade is not simply a market. It’s a movement, too. Essentially, it is about great products improving lives and protecting the planet. Fair Trade is a rigorous certification system with a comprehensive set of social, labour, and environmental standards for farms and factories around the world. When they meet those standards and pass an independent audit, they get certified.
They can sell their products with the Fair Trade Certified™ label. Our market partners, the companies we work with in North America, agree to pay a premium. That’s the secret sauce of Fair Trade. We’re not asking producers worldwide to be sustainable without a reward. We’ve created a model in which the market rewards more responsible and sustainable practices. Fair Trade is a way for you and me, as consumers, to choose products enabling extraordinary social and environmental impact around the world.
When I started in the Fair Trade movement over 35 years ago, few companies cared about the struggles of farmers and workers in the developing world. Not too many companies thought consumers cared either. So, it was a nascent movement. One of many efforts to engage companies and consumers around more responsible products. Over time, we’ve seen companies embrace Fair Trade and other forms of ethical sourcing, primarily, because consumers are asking for it. There’s a strong business case for Fair Trade. I’m eager to discuss this. Ultimately, if Fair Trade doesn’t work for businesses, it won’t work for farmers.
Jacobsen: What is the business case for Fair Trade?
Rice: Companies acquire three kinds of value when tapping Fair Trade supply chains or getting suppliers certified Fair Trade.
Number one: there is reputational risk mitigation. Every farmer and worker worldwide has a phone now, so there are no more secrets in the global supply chain. We’ve seen exposés on child labor in the cocoa fields of West Africa, child labour in chocolate, and slave labour in the shrimp industry in Thailand. That has exposed retailers and brands in North America.
One way to address that is to create a more transparent supply chain in which Costco or Whole Foods know where the shrimp, tomatoes, coffee, and chocolate are sourced. Through that supply chain transparency, you can ensure that the producers on the other side of the world are producing in a more sustainable, responsible way, verified through a third-party audit. Reputational risk mitigation is avoiding getting caught in a scandal in the supply chain. That’s value number one.
Value number two: there is supply chain resilience, security, and reliability. If companies ever realized supply chains were intimately linked with success as a business, it was during COVID. We saw supply chain disruptions and companies stocked out of products because supply chains were disrupted. Fair Trade and other expressions of ethical sourcing allow companies to ensure suppliers are getting enough money to stay in business and produce reliably with quality.
I’ll give you an example. We work with a lot of coffee companies. We don’t work with Folgers, Maxwell House, or lower-quality brands. We work with higher-quality brands who depend on high quality beans. So, how does a company like Starbucks, Green Mountain Coffee, or Nespresso ensure a reliable supply of high quality coffee beans? If a coffee farmer is starving or struggling to put food on the table. They don’t have the bandwidth or resources to care about quality.
So, it’s in Nespresso’s interest to ensure enough money gets back to that farmer so that the farmer can then be a reliable supplier of high-quality beans. That’s what I mean by supply chain reliability—supply chain security. The brand and the farmer share an interest. Companies securing access to the raw materials drive business.
Third element: you and me, man. It’s the customer. The data and research is clear. The market in terms of the dramatic sales of sustainable products, too. Consumers are increasingly reading the label. Increasingly, we want to know: Is this product healthy? Is it safe? Also, is it sustainable? Is it environmentally responsible? Is it socially responsible? No one wants to feel as if supporting child labour, deforestation, or other bad stuff through purchases.
So, do no harm is an ethos growing among consumers. There’s more forward-leaning, proactive growth in conscious consumerism. Millennials and Gen Z indices are even higher than those of the Boomers regarding expectations of companies and the companies’ impact on the world. Gen Z and Millennials leave brands that don’t care. Many brand leaders and business leaders see sustainability as a means for stable success in the future.
So, the business case for Fair Trade includes brands and retailers tapping into this growing consumer segment looking for more sustainable products. It’s an opportunity for growth and profitability and brand differentiation. Different companies find different sources of value in Fair Trade. By the way, fair trade is one expression of ethical sourcing. Other examples include organics, Marine Stewardship Council certification, Non-GMO Project certification, and many different ethical sourcing communities.
If you look at the last 10, 20, 30 years of growth in ethical sourcing and Fair Trade, it’s clear that we are moving from niche to norm. More responsible businesses are moving from niche to norm. It gives incredible hope.
Jacobsen: When you talk to business leaders, you can discuss the theory and the praxis of the business case for Fair Trade. What do business leaders say have been their lessons when entering and evolving with the industry?
Rice: Yes, it’s a great question. I work with so many amazing, visionary leaders in the business community, who are testing and experimenting with this new chapter of capitalism: Conscious Capitalism. Michael Porter, a famous Harvard professor, wrote about the theory of shared value. This theory states: Through sustainable business, you can create value different stakeholders share. It’s the heart of Fair Trade.
We’re not asking Whole Foods or Walmart to reduce profits to pay farmers and workers more money. Rather, we’re asking them to participate in a model allowing them to succeed, farmers to earn more, ecosystems to be protected, and consumers to be delighted with a great product. So, I would call them luminaries creating a new chapter of capitalism. I hear directly how Fair Trade is creating more transparent supply chains.
We work with Hershey, a chocolate company. Hershey wanted more transparency about its suppliers in West Africa. They wanted to address issues like child labour in West Africa and respond proactively. One of the problems in West Africa is not schools in many rural communities. So, what will you do if you’re a cocoa farmer with a six-year-old child? When you go to the fields, there’s no school in your village. Are you going to leave your six-year-old home alone all day? No—the kid’s coming with you.
So, one of the first things our cocoa farmers in West Africa (in the Ivory Coast) started doing was building schools. Hershey, as part of their Fair Trade program, paid a premium back to those villages. Those villages built schoolhouses. In the first two years, we built 30 schoolhouses in those communities. By the way, the communities went to the government and said, “If we build the school, will you pay for the teachers?” It was a cool example of a community finding its ability to negotiate with the government, a public-private partnership model, where the farmers built the schoolhouses.
I’m talking about two-room schoolhouses, simple structures. The government paid for the teachers. We put thousands of kids into schools in those first two years as a concrete way to address the issue and the risk of child labour. So, you see Hershey concretely talking about Fair Trade to enable education and mitigate the industry’s child labour risk. We have a great program with Fair Trade tomatoes and Walmart. Walmart came to us and said, “We want to ensure that our suppliers are strong and capable. Capable of producing the right quality, delivering reliably, offering the right price, and taking care of the land and their workers.”
They wanted to enter Fair Trade with those goals in mind. My initial response was, “Why do you care? You don’t own those tomato farms. If they fail, you can buy them from another tomato farm.” They said, “It’s true. We find engaging over the long term more efficient and effective to form long-term relationships with our suppliers, because we’re projecting demand into the future. We will have more and more demand for tomatoes and other products. So we want to ensure that the supply will be there and the supply will be loyal to us. So, we care about our growers, because we understand the long-term importance of the supply chain.”
So then, we did this program with Walmart, which at the time represented only 10% of all U.S. Walmart tomato sales. Overnight, they became the largest seller of Fair Trade tomatoes in the world. They were sourced from farms in Mexico, including snacking tomatoes from an amazing company called NatureSweet. With Walmart and the growers, we created a dashboard and started tracking key indicators—worker well-being, how the premium was spent, and farm-level indicators like productivity and worker retention.
We found worker retention—workers going home at the end of the season for their break and then returning to the same farm—jumped to eight times the industry average. Why is that important? Ask any farmer in the U.S. or any country worldwide what their number one concern is today: It’s labour. Gone are the days of an abundant supply of cheap labour. Farmers are worried about not having enough people to harvest crops.
So, if you can retain workers, if you can keep workers coming back year after year, if you can maintain a stable workforce, then you have a competitive advantage. As a business, you have more stability. NatureSweet reported eight times higher worker retention on farms than the industry average. When workers stay, the company has lower recruitment costs. It doesn’t have to spend as much money recruiting labour from around Mexico.
You have lower training costs, i.e., training workers who have never worked with tomatoes. You’ve got to train them to work with tomatoes, right? So your training costs go down, and your productivity goes up because you have a more experienced, skilled workforce—people who have been working in tomatoes for years. There’s value for the supplier and for that farm owner. Walmart has a more secure and reliable supply chain that can deliver the right quality and the right volume year after year.
So, I spoke about the business case of the reliable supply chain. That’s a great example. And I’ll share—in the same program, if I may—the Walmart tomato program: when Walmart put the Fair Trade Certified label on the tomatoes at Walmart, sales jumped 3%. It may not sound like a lot—3% volume growth. To Walmart, it’s a big number. Who knew a Walmart shopper would gravitate toward a Fair Trade Certified product and buy more? It exploded assumptions about who the Fair Trade consumer is. It revealed conscious consumers shop everywhere. They shop at Whole Foods, Costco, and Walmart.
Jacobsen: Now we have the Fairtrade International label, and Fair Trade Certified from Fair Trade USA. However, there have been cases of self-declared claims to ‘Fair Trade.’ So, the Fair Trade logo was used without third-party certification. What can people do, using their judgment, to differentiate between misleading claims and actual Fair Trade practices and labels?
Rice: Yes, it’s a great question. So, there are two Fair Trade labels in North America—two auditing bodies: Fair Trade USA and Fairtrade International. Fair Trade USA certifies about 93% of all Fair Trade products in the U.S. market. This figure fluctuates slightly by year and product category, but Fair Trade USA is the dominant certifier in the U.S. market. Our relationship with the U.S. market goes back 26 years to when I founded the organization in 1998. Fairtrade International is a collection of Fair Trade groups in England, Switzerland, the Netherlands, Germany, and Canada—as well as other countries. It’s primarily a European-based organization.
They have a single Fair Trade label that just says “Fairtrade.” Ours says, “Fair Trade Certified.” So, in Canada and Europe, you’ll see the “Fairtrade” label predominantly. You won’t see much of the Fairtrade International label in the U.S. market. Fairtrade International and Fair Trade USA subscribe to the same ideals—the same general philosophy that business can and must be a force for good and that consumers will step up and reward companies for meeting a standard. We believe in the same mix of social and environmental standards.
What’s different about Fair Trade USA versus Fairtrade International is that Fair Trade USA has tried to expand the number of products, geographies, and types of producers allowed into Fair Trade. So we very much do what Fairtrade International does. We stand on their shoulders. We honour their work and support it.
However, their work tends to be more focused on small farmer cooperatives. Under our vision of Fair Trade for All, which we declared in 2011, Fair Trade USA seeks to go beyond small farmer co-ops. Also, we work with factory workers, fisheries, dairy farms, and apparel. So we’re in several product categories that Fairtrade International isn’t. We also started certifying farms in North America and Europe, whereas Fairtrade International is focused exclusively on the Global South—in Africa, Asia, and Latin America.
So there are a few differences. I would argue that our vision—Fair Trade USA’s vision—is perhaps more inclusive. We believe any producer anywhere in the world, in any product category, should be allowed access to Fair Trade certification. But we stand shoulder to shoulder with Fairtrade International regarding the bigger movement. You referenced false claims. Companies saying they’re Fair Trade when they’re not. That’s a rare occurrence. As you might imagine, we monitor the airwaves. We monitor brands. Some brands say their products are “fairly traded”and don’t carry a label.
It’s not a threat to the movement. When we see a company using that terminology, we reach out to them and say, “Hey, we appreciate what you’re doing. Wouldn’t you love to join the movement and have the credibility that comes with being independently audited?”
Most consumers are skeptical of companies claiming to do good without any oversight. The larger the company, the more skeptical the consumer. We worked with Starbucks for a number of years. Then they dropped Fair Trade and moved toward their in-house program. It’s called C.A.F.E. Practices. On every Starbucks coffee package, it says “Ethically Sourced.” It doesn’t say Fair Trade. The National Consumers League recently brought a class action lawsuit against Starbucks because it found bad labour practices on farms supplying coffee to Starbucks.
Starbucks promotes “Ethically Sourced” coffee, but this claim has not been independently audited or verified. It just brought home the value of having independent oversight—like Fair Trade—to ensure the claim is legitimate. So, it will be interesting to see what Starbucks does with that suit and their in-house program. I don’t lose sleep over the few companies out there who claim to be Fair Trade, but aren’t certified. Greenwashing in the sustainability movement is hazardous.
Two final thoughts that I’d love to share: The first one—Fair Trade works. Fair Trade improves lives. It protects the environment. I know this, because I lived it. At the tender age of 22, I bought a one-way ticket to Nicaragua. I worked with coffee farmers for 11 years deep in the highlands. While there, I had the chance to start the first Fair Trade coffee co-op in Nicaragua. I started in 1990 and ran it for four years. So, I had a front-row seat on this journey of empowerment. 3,000 families came together to pool their coffee, add value through processing, and then export directly to Fair Trade buyers worldwide.
As a result of that participation in the Fair Trade market, those farmers received more money for coffee, so they could stay on the land, keep their kids in school, and run healthcare programs. We ran reforestation programs. We dug wells and brought clean drinking water into villages for the first time. All of this amazing progress, not thanks to the government or some well-intentioned charitable organization, but thanks to this simple notion of a fair price for a great product. That’s what opened my eyes to the impact of Fair Trade and how transformative it can be in improving the lives of farmers and workers worldwide. I moved back to the States and started Fair Trade USA. I felt a calling, because Fair Trade works.
The second message is why I wrote Every Purchase Matters. The news is full of billionaires and presidents who seemingly have much more power. My message to everyone else is that you, too, are powerful. You and I can vote with our dollars every day for a better, more socially responsible, and environmentally sustainable world. When we go to the store, we have the chance to vote. We can choose sustainable products because corporate America is listening. When we choose sustainable products, corporate America does more of them. I’ve seen this clearly in the Fair Trade movement over the last thirty years. When consumers buy Fair Trade products, companies come in and do more, and other companies join them.
It’s part of the mainstreaming of ethical sourcing and sustainable products—consumers are voting with their dollars. That’s why my book is a book of hope and a call to action. You don’t have to wait four years to vote for change. You can vote for change today—by going to the store and choosing a product more consistent with your values.
Jacobsen: Paul, thank you so much for your time today. I appreciate it.
Rice: Scott, thank you for helping to get the word out and for your journalism. We need journalists right now. We desperately need journalists right now to tell the world what’s happening. And I appreciate the chance to talk to you today.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen (Edited by Richard Dowsett, Humanist Association of Toronto Coordinator and Treasurer)
Publication (Outlet/Website): Jacobsen’s Jabberwocky (Humanist Association of Toronto)
Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2018/09/05 (Submission Date)
The humanist ethos seems akin to an empirical ethics, where the discoveries of the sciences lead to particular insights about the human condition with some reflection. A certain mulling over the realities of the world in light of human limitations.
There is in this the basic notion of a world or a cosmos “out there,” which leads to a separation between the external processes of the world and the internal psychological dynamic of the mind – and, in some sense, an amorphous unified theory in their transactional status.
One, in a way, assumed as a passive, objective system in operation as the universe; another, in one other way, asserted in doctrines including Freedom of the Will, as an active system embedded within the passive system.
In this way, the long-term future of the universe becomes implicated in the actions of every human being in every here-and-now. If one wants a formal non-religious spirituality, then this constructs a modest basis for it.
All decisions in the here-and-now matter, in a concrete sense, for the long-term there-and-then. Then in our own short futures, we harbor even greater potential and, as a result, responsibility for actions in our lifetimes. North American Indigenous spirituality with responsibility to future generations remains non-trivial in this view, too.
Science emerges from natural philosophy, and went by the title in former generations, and exists inextricably linked to philosophy in this way – by history and definition. The naturalistic perspective of the sciences provided to humanism and then fed through compassion-based, utilitarian ethics seen in John Stuart (and Harriet Taylor) Mill gives a viable option in a reason-based approach to ethics.
We can see this in the evidence from the psychological and zoological sciences about the ability to cogitate and feel in other animal species, not simply human beings. In this, other beings matter, not as much but enough. A certain sufficient threshold of feeling and thinking for decent levels of moral consideration within human systems and life.
Regarding the human animal, the same applies and extends to the less fortunate, the destitute, the penurious, the houseless, the workless, the loveless, the parentless, and those living with disabilities or greater prejudice thrust against them, and so on.
Peter Singer has been a pioneer in the effort to realize the work of utilitarianism of Mill with an expanded ethical universe with the inclusion of non-human animals. The do as you would be done by and love your neighbour as yourself in most mainstream religions exhibit the ethics of Mill and vice versa. The only difference in contrast to the time of Mill remains the increase in the moral sphere or a fuller realization of the Golden Rule’s intention in the consideration of other beings.
Remembering, of course, women, for a long time, were seen, and in many cases still get regarded as, non-persons or unequal to men. The Mills with women’s equality pioneered the expanded ethical circle for the entirety of the human species. Singer to non-human animals with Effective Altruism.
The Mills in Utilitarianism: Chapter 2 What Utilitarianism Is (1863) states:
I must again repeat, what the assailants of utilitarianism seldom have the justice to acknowledge, that the happiness which forms the utilitarian standard of what is right in conduct, is not the agent’s own happiness, but that of all concerned. As between his own happiness and that of others, utilitarianism requires him to be as strictly impartial as a disinterested and benevolent spectator. In the golden rule of Jesus of Nazareth, we read the complete spirit of the ethics of utility. To do as you would be done by, and to love your neighbour as yourself, constitute the ideal perfection of utilitarian morality.
The ratiocinated consideration of the thoughts and feelings of others tied to the empirical findings of science helps build the better world envisioned by humanist philosophy. Mill, Singer, apparently the Nazarene, and others appear to agree, in principle, with the ethic; while, now, we have the greater capability to know which directions to take given the modern findings of science. Our knowledge grants greater responsibility to work within a wider moral universe.
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P.S. To the transhumanists, this makes transhumanism a speculative empirical moral philosophy, akin to the difference between science and science fiction, where, as with discussions of the Three Laws of Robotics, the Asilomar AI Guidelines, Artificial Moral Agents, so on, human-crafted agents may deserve and garner rights, i.e., “robot rights.” This may become the frontier post-animal rights.
Last updated May 3, 2025. These terms govern all In Sight Publishing content—past, present, and future—and supersede any prior notices. In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons BY‑NC‑ND 4.0; © In Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen 2012–Present. All trademarks, performances, databases & branding are owned by their rights holders; no use without permission. Unauthorized copying, modification, framing or public communication is prohibited. External links are not endorsed. Cookies & tracking require consent, and data processing complies with PIPEDA & GDPR; no data from children < 13 (COPPA). Content meets WCAG 2.1 AA under the Accessible Canada Act & is preserved in open archival formats with backups. Excerpts & links require full credit & hyperlink; limited quoting under fair-dealing & fair-use. All content is informational; no liability for errors or omissions: Feedback welcome, and verified errors corrected promptly. For permissions or DMCA notices, email: scott.jacobsen2025@gmail.com. Site use is governed by BC laws; content is “as‑is,” liability limited, users indemnify us; moral, performers’ & database sui generis rights reserved.
