Mneka Mbanje on Humanism in Zimbabwe

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Publication (Outlet/Website): The Good Men Project

Publication Date (yyyy/mm/dd): 2024/09/23

*Unfortunately, due to an accident, she was unable to attend.*

Mneka Mbanje is the Programs Officer for Humanists Zimbabwe. 

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: My first question is always for humanists. How did you find out about humanism or secular free thought in general?

Mneka Mbanje: The story of how I learned about humanism is interesting because I was born into a staunch Seventh-day Adventist family.

Jacobsen: We have those in Canada, too.

Mbanje: I discovered humanism in my late teens, maybe around 17 or 18. From there, I became more involved. Regarding Humanist International, a friend was applying for a Young Humanists International grant. I think it was an online application, but I need to check. I remember he kept going about Young Humanists International, which is how I first learned about Humanist International.

Jacobsen: I see. When you first learned about Young Humanist International, who was your primary contact? Who was your first connection?

Mbanje: My first contact with young humanists outside of the people from Zambia was in Javan Lev Poblador.

Jacobsen: Yes, I knew him when he was involved with the humanist group through the Philippines. So, what happened with the Zambian group? Who was your contact there?

Mbanje: I am trying to remember his name because our interaction was brief. We spoke, and he referred me to Javan, saying, “You can speak to him.” I got Javan’s email address from him, and that is when we started communicating.

Jacobsen: I see, so that is the connection. That is interesting. What have you done with Young Humanist International? Have you done anything with the Zambian or Zimbabwean groups?

Mbanje: Unfortunately, we did not get a chance to collaborate with the Zambian group. However, with Young Humanist International, we applied for an online grant to start a YouTube channel and to promote humanism in Africa. It is very challenging, particularly in Zimbabwe, where people often ask, “What is your denomination?” When I say, “I am a humanist,” they usually look at me like, “What does that mean?” I must explain humanism to them.

Our goal is to help people understand that humanism is not something negative. Many people assume that if you are not Christian or affiliated with one of the main religions in Zimbabwe, you must be either satanic or a devil worshipper. We are trying to change that mindset.

With the grants we have received, that is precisely what we are working to do.

Jacobsen: So, what about connections on the ground with interfaith groups? Are any relevant and active in Zambia or Zimbabwe in your area?

Mbanje: Not at the moment. That is mainly because it is challenging to approach people and say, especially to the young groups we are targeting, “Hi, I would like to discuss religion, but outside the context of religion.”

Everyone is apprehensive, but we are trying to reduce that apprehension by starting a conversation with constructive dialogue rather than fighting.

Jacobsen: That is a good point. Do you find common themes when working with some religious groups or individuals, at least when you are addressing more extreme strains of religious ideology that become pretty political and potentially violent?

Mbanje: One underlying theme I have noticed is the perception that humanists are immoral or unethical. The first reaction we often get when speaking to someone is, “Oh, you are those people who want to encourage immorality and unethical behaviour.” So, that is a common misconception about humanists. Many people need to learn that humanism exists as a concept.

Jacobsen: And when we face these personal attacks about being immoral, are they gendered in any way? Do men and women receive different accusations, or is it not particularly gendered in this context?

Mbanje: It is very much gendered. Generally speaking, when it comes to morality, female morality is perceived differently from male morality. As a woman, when I approach people and say, “Yes, I am a humanist and an atheist as well,” it is often met with shock, as if I have committed some heinous crime.

People automatically assume I am immoral or have many negative traits. I find it rather funny because, in my mind, I think, “I do have a code of ethics and personal morals that I abide by.” However, because I believe in humanism, no one is willing to listen, especially if you are a woman.

It reaches a point where, especially if you are trying to find a partner and you mention, “Oh, hi, I do not believe in God or anything like that,” you are immediately dismissed, a write-off, seen as “death to the heathen,” basically.

Jacobsen: I’ve been doing these interviews on and off for a decade or so, and what you are saying about how this is gendered is valid worldwide. It is tailored to cultural contexts.

For example, in Canada, you will encounter figures like Jordan Peterson and others, but generally, these biases are expressed more subtly. People might use the media against you or similar tactics.

In Asian contexts, it tends to be family and community-based, with some elements of honour at play. In the Middle East, it is much more pronounced, with blasphemy laws on the books. The African context is more complicated because it involves both community pressure and individual experiences, as you described, but also because resources are much scarcer than in other parts of the World.

Mbanje: Yes, very much so, especially within the African context. For example, if you’re looking for a job, you are often expected to state your religious denomination. If you do not declare yourself Christian, you can be sure you will not be hired, regardless of your qualifications. I have seen this discrimination in practice—if you do not specify that you are Christian, it is an automatic dismissal, no matter how qualified you are.

Jacobsen: Yes, religious people can show bias in that way. The only people I have found who are more open-minded tend to be those who are cosmopolitan—they have had exposure to the international world and understand that the dividing lines between people are not as significant as they are often made out to be–specific variables get exaggerated.

For example, you can have a wealthy country like the United States, but if you have large media conglomerates spreading misinformation, they can effectively create division. So, let us move on, you have mentioned how this bias is gendered and affects job opportunities, even the quality of jobs.

What about the educational system? How are things taught? Is there anything remotely humanistic? Do they teach anything about human rights or proper sex education?

Mbanje: Within the African sector, and specifically in Zimbabwe, sex education is very much shaped by cultural norms. In schools, sex education barely exists beyond basic human anatomy. Outside of that, there is no helpful sex education. Families rely on relatives, like aunts for girls and uncles for boys, to teach them, but even then, the message is mostly, “Do not do that; it is only for when you are married,” and that is it.

None of the curriculum includes secular teachings or humanistic principles. However, human rights are often taught based on Christian principles because 90% of the schools are Christian. Thus, human rights are presented as derived from Christian beliefs, saying, “We, as Christians, believe this because it is a human right.”

Jacobsen: Canada has similar education systems, but in reverse, more insular communities hold these perspectives. In the United States, you might have heard about the “Just Say No” campaign against substance abuse, spearheaded by a First Lady. The idea was to say no, which was supposed to work. Then there is abstinence-only education, but that is mainly in religious communities. This non-evidence-based perspective comes primarily from religious communities.

Even if you reverse the case regarding how it is represented nationally, you still encounter it. I expect you will continue to face these challenges in any activism you pursue, though you can undoubtedly diminish them. It is almost always on a sliding scale. I do not know of any country where non-evidence-based educational policies have been completely eradicated.

Are there any politicians, public figures, or artists in Zimbabwe who speak out against this? In Nigeria, for example, a rapper named FALZ did a rendition of Donald Glover’s “This is America” called “This is Nigeria.” It is a great song that openly critiques religious hypocrisy, political corruption, and other issues. I have seen figures like that and would love to connect with them. Are there similar figures in Zimbabwe?

Mbanje: Unfortunately, no. You will not find it even in circles where you expect people to discuss these topics openly. For example, I remember we had the Debate Club in college or university. The Debate Club was considered the end of things, where we might discuss sex education or abortion. However, when it came to religion, people would become quite apprehensive.

Being open about it is not impossible, but nobody wants to do it. Let me put it that way.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Mbanje: It benefits more to be religiously affiliated. You will find that many artists start without any particular religious affiliation. Then, as they become more popular, they might add a gospel song or record a video in a church, and suddenly, they gain a lot more attention. So, there is a solid push to find a religious affiliation.

Jacobsen: I know a lot of female activists around the world doing significant work, often in the minority. I wanted to touch again on how the accusations against you are gendered. I can tell from talking to you that you seem to maintain a sense of humour about it, like thinking, “Okay, here we go again, people being ridiculous.” However, there are more severe threats, like death threats or rape threats, that can come through emails or even in person. I know some women who have faced these.

This is not isolated to any specific country or region. Are women activists in your area experiencing the same kind of harassment and threats?

Mbanje: It is not overt for the most part. However, you do get the occasional “Oh, so you are the devil worshiper. Come here, and I will fix you up” type of comment. Moreover, we all know what they mean by that.

Jacobsen: Yes.

Mbanje: So it is not overt. No one will directly say, “I will kill you.” However, you can tell from the language that it has loaded.

Jacobsen: So, it is a threat of corrective sexual assault.

Mbanje: Yes.

Jacobsen: Yes, that is insidious. That kind of thing would ruin my day—or even my week—if there were enough.

Mbanje: True, true. However, you reach a point where you think, “All right.” You meet someone who says that, and yourweek is ruined, but their week goes on just fine. So, what is the point?

Jacobsen: Yes, yes. What are you hoping to gain in Singapore?

Mbanje: My main goal is to appreciate interfaith communication better. My background in the Seventh-Day Adventist faith has made me approach specific topics quite aggressively. I want to find a more accepting way to facilitate interfaith communication because once we establish that, many things become more accessible.

Jacobsen: Are there contexts where that might be a pipe dream?

Mbanje: To be honest, yes. It is pessimistic of me to say so, but sometimes I reflect on what people in places like Kenya and Nigeria have gone through, with the witch trials and other atrocities happening there. I cannot imagine people being willing to sit down and discuss. If they are willing to burn people alive, then what is the point? If they feel they have “God,” quote-unquote, on their side and can burn in the name of God, what can we do? Our ethics do not allow us to act that way. However, at the same time, how do you communicate with someone willing to burn another human being? What can you say to get through to them?

Jacobsen: I think any sober analysis would agree that when the concept of God is taken to that extreme; it resembles many lay diagnoses of informal mental illness. It is so extreme.

Mbanje: Very much so. It is sad because I do not even see it as extreme anymore. I half expect it now. It has become so normalized, which says much about how extreme it is.

Jacobsen: Yes, I hear you. If you ever get the chance to go, I know the World Economic Forum ranks gender equality indexes.

Now, of course, there are going to be flaws in any index, naturally. However, one country, Iceland, has been ranked number one for gender equality for 13 or 14 years. I interviewed the Strategic Director for UN Women. I brought up Iceland’s ranking for being so gender equal. He agreed, saying it is one of those case studies where they are not just ahead but so far ahead. If you ever get a chance to go there, I highly recommend it, even for a week.

It would be expensive, even from a Canadian dollar perspective, but as a cultural site, going to the bars and pubs and seeing how people interact is enlightening. It was for me. I fell in love with the place.

Your experience in Singapore will be good for you, too. It provides a nice experiential comparison to what you have been used to.

Mbanje: The other side of the coin.

Jacobsen: Yes, exactly. As I said, in 2019, when I went with YHI, which was then IHEYO, we were transitioning to the executive committee. Iceland was my first time in Europe. I was blown away.

As far as I recall, it was my first time in a non-North American country. So, I hope you have a great time in Singapore and that you network. That is why people go in person, not just to drink—although they want to do that—but to interact and workshop.

When I go to these conferences, and you will find the same, I find that people’s experiences are essentially the same; they are filtered through a different cultural lens.

Mbanje: Yes, very much so. It is the same statement, same experience, different lenses.

Jacobsen: Yes, exactly. I think if you talk to a lot of the women there, too, they will share how their experiences as non-religious people are gendered in specific ways. It has harmed them, especially if they are in a religious country—in their professional development, their mental health, and through regular harassment and things like that.

So, yes, it would be an excellent experience for you. Will you be giving a workshop or presentation?

Mbanje: No, unfortunately not. But hopefully, next time. I look forward to it.

Jacobsen: I suggest having your contact information ready and sharing it with as many people as possible. Not everyone is necessarily going to respond, but once they know your face and know you, it makes a difference.

It is essential if they are there the following year or think of something regarding the African context. The Global South holds the most promise for humanist philosophy. There is so much room for it—people are ready for it.

Once they understand it and move past the nonsense of “you are a devil worshipper” and things like that, I think there is much potential. We will keep this concise because we have about 20–40 potential topics we could dive into. Do you have any final thoughts you’d like to share before we close up?

Mbanje: Yes, I’m looking forward to it. I’m sure I’ll have a lot of fun and learn.

Jacobsen: Excellent. Okay, excellent. Thank you for your time today. 

Mbanje: Okay, thanks so much.

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