In-Sight Publishing

_{Publisher: In-Sight Publishing}

_{Publisher Founding: September 1, 2014}

_{Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada}

_{Journal: African Freethinker}

_{Journal Founding: November 1, 2018}

_{Frequency: TBD}

_{Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed}

_{Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access}

_{Fees: None (Free)}

_{Volume Numbering: 1}

_{Issue Numbering: 1}

_{Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com}

_{Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2024}

_{Issue Publication Date: TBD}

_{Author(s): Isakwisa Amanyisye Lucas Mwakalonge}

_{Author(s) Bio: Lucas is Assistant Editor, African Freethinker/in-sightpublishing.com (Tanzania), a Lawyer, an Advocate of the High Court of Tanzania, a Notary Public Officer and Commissioner for Oaths. Researcher in Constitutional Law, and Human Rights Law. Also, a Humanist-Freethinker Activist in Tanzania. (Email: isamwaka01@gmail.com or mwakalonge.mwakyusa@gmail.com)}

_{Word Count:} 5,028

_{Image Credit: Isakwisa Amanyisye Lucas Mwakalonge.}

_{Keywords: LGBTQ+ rights in Tanzania, discrimination in Tanzania, LGBTQ+ human rights, Tanzania LGBTQ+ issues, LGBTQ+ harassment Tanzania, same-sex relationships Tanzania, Tanzanian Penal Code, constitutional rights Tanzania, LGBTQ+ legal challenges, human rights violations Tanzania, LGBTQ+ protection Tanzania, LGBTQ+ associations Tanzania.}

_{*Please see the footnotes and bibliography after the article.*}

_{The Legal Dilemma of the LGBTQ+ Person’s Rights in Tanzania}

_{Dar es Salaam, Tanzania — East Africa.}

_{(WhatsApp +255 766 151395/E-mail: isamwaka01@gmail.com.)}

_Abstract

_{The LGBTQ+Persons have been under great attack, abuse, harassments, and living in fear in Tanzania. Their human rights are neglected, and violated several times especially by some religious fanatics from Islam, Christianity, and sometimes by some government officials. Hence, life becomes very insecure to them. They cannot enjoy freely the rights of freedom of expression, right to life, right to privacy. So, this paper intends to make a critical assessment of their Constitutional and Human rights, then recommend some procedures to be followed by them so as to fight for their rights which will later assure them a total dignity, respect, legal recognition and acquisition of their rights of either form or join associations which will stand for their rights national wide.}

_Introduction

_{LGBTQ+ is an acronym which stands for “lesbian, gay, bisexual, transgender and queer or questioning.” In this essay words like homosexuals, sexual minorities, same sex relationship, and LGBTQ+persons have been used interchangeable though the meaning remain to be the same, or perhaps with a slight difference. While the purpose is just an attempt to explain the legal challenges facing the LGBTQ+persons or sexual minorities in Tanzania.While Pre-Colonial African Societies refers to African societies before the Colonization, this is Africa up to 1884, or African societies before the Berlin Conference of 1884 to 1885.}

_{Generally, the LGBTQ+people in Tanzania are facing a wide spread of discrimination which is manifested in many forms such as physical abuse, expulsion from school, verbal abuse, psychological abuse, sexual abuse and intimidation. They are discriminated in working places, sometimes they are rejected and isolated from the communities, families, and friends.Furthermore the state does not recognize the rights of Intersex or transgender persons regarding transformation of legal gender or access to gender backup treatments.}

_{The Tanzania’s position concerning the rights of the LGBTQ+persons and homosexuals can be comprehended from the minister of home affairs words when speaking to the press in Dar es salaam in 2018,among other things to paraphrase the minister insisted that Tanzania does not discriminate people on the basis of sexual orientation or homosexuality practices because, the government believes on equality of human beings, the LGBTQ+persons or Sexual Minorities are human beings thus, they are protected by the Constitution of the United Republic of Tanzania,1977 similar statements were issued by the ministry of foreign affairs spokesperson. This happened in order to show the government stand on the state of homosexual’s affairs in the nation, following the brutal and inhuman campaign of witch-hunting homosexuals in Dar es salaam city launched in 2018 by the then Dar es salaam Regional Commissioner. The campaign was conducted with full of harassments, and intimidations. It is Obviously by the statement from the minister of home affairs it seems as if the situation is at easy for homosexuals on the ground, but the reality is vice versa there is too much pressure from various groups pressurizing the government to harass, discriminate, despise, ridicule, persecute, imprison, and hate the same-sex relationship persons and the source of hatred and discrimination against this group is from various backgrounds. For instances some says this habit of homosexuality or LGBTQ+ recognition is against their religious beliefs especially Christians and Islams, therefore tolerance to homosexuals and the LGBTQ+ person’s activities will result into curse from their god. While the other group is identifying itself as pro-African culture, these are cultural fundamentalists claiming to protect African culture, they argue that homosexuality issue is a western nations values trying to be imposed to Africa, it is Un-African. So, as Africans, they are not ready to accept it.}

_{In Countering Big Lies and Deceit That Homosexuality Is Un-African.}

_{The truth is this, homosexuality has been practiced in Africa long even before European colonialism in this continent or before the arrival of the Arab slave dealers in Africa. There are sufficient evidences which illustrates that Pre-colonial African societies did not kill, hate, harass, imprison or discriminate homosexuals, but to the contrary there are concrete evidences indicating that in most of the time they either reconcile or tolerate them. Pre-colonial Africans stayed with homosexuals in harmony, and it has been difficult to gather evidence of proving that the pre-colonial Africa societies did penal condemnation, or violence to homosexuals.}

_{In Pre-Colonial Africa issues of sexual orientation, either Homosexual or Heterosexual was just a personal choice. For example, homosexuality was allowed due to some reasons for instance in situations where a person need either maintaining his or her political power, or magical power or where a person want to get more rich and wealthier then, homosexuality practice was allowed as a ritual requirement. While if a person desired to have children and a permanent family of a wife and children then was allowed to go to heterosexual relations for such purpose of getting married and bearing children.For instance homosexuality was a common practice in many places in pre-colonial Africa such as in Iteso,Bahima,Langi,in some parts of East African Coast, Baganda, Banyoro, Zulu, Azande, Venda, Phalaborwa, Basotho, Pangwe, Lovendi, Elgarah, Meru, Siwah, Kwayoma, Teso, and in some other parts of southern, west and central Africa. Pre-colonial Africa did not criminalize homosexuality, but European colonialists are the ones introduced the criminalization of homosexuality in Africa. A good example is the way British did introduce the criminalization of homosexuality in her colonies like Nigeria, Zimbabwe, Kenya, Uganda, Tanganyika (Tanzania)Ghana, and the entire Anglo-phone Africa through, a legislation named Penal Code. Whereas the Post-Colonial Anglo-phone Africa did inherit, maintain and continue to use the colonial imposed laws, though they went a step ahead of modifying those inherited colonial laws so that they become more tyrannical than they used to be during colonial era including the laws which criminalized homosexuals like the Penal Code. As it is in Kenya, Uganda, Nigeria and Tanzania.}

_{The Contemporary Africa and Second Wave of Criminalization of Homosexuals}

_{After achieving political independence, many African states including former British colonies preserved and used the colonial forced laws, including the draconian laws which criminalize homosexuals, and the LGBTQ+persons. But what is witnessed recently in some African states especially in former British colonies like Uganda, Nigeria, Ghana, with these new Anti-Homosexuality Laws is just an intensification of the scope of Anti-Homosexuality Campaign, this can be called as a second wave of a continuation of tyranny and discrimination of Africans by African governments. The planners of this second wave of Anti-Homosexuality Laws come out with arguments, that permitting homosexuality may lead to an increase of rape offences, defilement cases, and an increase of spread of HIV and other sexually transmitted diseases. Yet some people still argue that homosexuality is Un-African, the argument which is already proven to be totally wrong and untrue. However, the major reason is just a discrimination grounding on sexual orientation which has a religious background of either Christianity or Islam. Nonetheless these childish reasons that homosexuality is Un-African, or may spread defilement, rape and venereal diseases are only a hiding umbrella. Actually, a habit of homophobia, biphobia, transphobia, criminalization and all types of discrimination of the LGBTQ+ persons or homosexuals is the one which is Un-African, because such practice has been imposed by the colonial masters in Africa through their newly introduced laws such as Penal Code which was brought by the British imperialists in Africa, while harmony and tolerance to homosexuals is the real African culture. This is the truth which seems to be like a paradox to many Africans.}

_{The Status of the LGBTQ+ Persons or Homosexuals in Tanzania}

_{In Tanzania any involvement of homosexuality practice or same sex relationship is an offence. Yet, there is a legal dilemma in dealing with this problem. The legal ambiguities are manifested from the legislation which criminalize the same sex relationship in one side, and the Constitution together with International Human Rights Instruments on the other side. It is ambiguous because the Constitution provides an enjoyment of human rights, while on the other side the draconian colonial inherited legislation takes away the Constitution given rights, despite the fact that in Tanzania there is Constitutional Supremacy where by all legislations are supposed to abide to it. An example of a draconian law which takes away some Constitutional given rights is the Penal Code Cap.16 Revised Edition of 2022, this is a legislation which establishes a Code of Criminal law in Tanzania. In this legislation all issues of the same sex relationship between consenting adult partners have been criminalized, where by the offenses established are called Offences Against Morality, they are also known as “Unnatural Offences” and the specific sections are section 154(1) and section 155 of this law, the section states this;}

_{“Any person who}

_{(a)has carnal knowledge of any person against the order of nature;}

_{© permits a male person to have carnal knowledge of him or her against the order of nature, commits an offence, and is liable to imprisonment for life and in any case to imprisonment for a term of not less than thirty years.’’}

_{and section 155 provides this;}

_{“Any person who attempts to commit any of the offence specified under section 154 commits an offence and shall, on conviction be sentenced to imprisonment for a term not less than twenty years’’}

_{Thus, through these sections of Cap 16 quoted in here, indicates that the same sex relationship is illegal, and if anybody found guilty before courts of law can be imprisoned for either thirty years or to life imprisonment. Despite the fact that the Constitution emphasizes on equality of human beings. And all human beings are considered to be free, equal and each deserve to be treated with honor and recognition while respecting their dignity. This is stated in article 12(1) and (2), as it is quoted below herein: the article is stating this.}

_{(1) ‘’All human beings are born free, and are all equal.”}

_{(2) ‘’Every person is entitled to recognition and respect for his dignity”}

_{Whereas article 13(1), (4) and (5) reads;}

_{(1) ‘’All persons are equal before the law and are entitled, without any discrimination, to protection and equality before the law”}

_{(4) “No person shall be discriminated against by any person or any authority acting under any law or in the discharge of the functions or business of any office.”}

_{(5) “For the purpose of this Article the expression “discriminate” means to satisfy the needs, rights or other requirements of different persons on the basis of their nationality, tribe, place of origin, political opinion, color, religion, sex, or station in life such that certain categories of people are regarded as weak or inferior and are subjected to restrictions or condition whereas persons of other categories are treated differently or are accorded opportunities or advantage outside the specified conditions or the prescribed necessary qualifications except that the word “discrimination” shall not be construed in a manner that will prohibit the Government from taking purposeful steps aimed at rectifying disabilities in the society”}

_{Subsequently the consenting adult partners of the same sex relationship should not be discriminated only due to sexual orientation, it is against this article of the Constitution. People of the same sex relationship deserves to be respected, and have the right to enjoy privacy of their matrimonial life, their families and respect, protection of their residences and in their private communications, as it is provided by the Constitution under article 16(1), the article reads as follows:}

_{(1)” Every person is entitled to respect and protection of his person, the privacy of his own person, his family and of his matrimonial life, and respect and protection of his residence and private communication.”}

_{The same-sex relationship persons are permitted either form or join associations, for example the associations can be in form of Non-Governmental Organizations which will protect their interests, or used as their forum for the development of their affairs. This right is provided by the Constitution under article 20(1), and the article states this;}

_{(1). “Every person has a freedom, to freely and peaceably assemble, associate and cooperate with other persons, and for that purpose, express views publicly and to form and join with associations or organizations formed for purpose of preserving or furthering his beliefs or interests or any other interests.”}

_{People of the same sex relationship have the right to enjoy fundamental human rights like any other person in Tanzania. This is emphasized under Article 29(1) of the Constitution, and the article provides this:}

_{(1)” Every person in the United Republic of Tanzania has the right to enjoy fundamental human rights and to enjoy the benefits accruing from the fulfilment by every person of this duty to society, as stipulated under Article 12 to 28 of this Part of this Chapter of the Constitution.}

_{The LGBTQ+persons including Homosexuals are also human beings, hence deserves to enjoy fundamental human rights like any other person without discrimination. All of these quotations from various articles of the Constitution of Tanzania, it is an attempt to show clearly that all people in Tanzania are entitled to enjoy these Constitutional and Human rights, enshrined in the Constitution without any discrimination, and sexual minorities persons are inclusive.}

_{Just an advice to a secular state of Tanzania that, by permitting these sections 154(1) and 155 of the Penal Code to continue to operate in the nation’s legal system, this is a violation of human rights committed by the state since homosexuals will no longer be free persons, no dignity and respect to them, they are discriminated under sexual orientations basis, their rights of privacy especially in protection and enjoyment of their matrimonial rights is violated. These discriminative sections in Cap 16 are also contrary to the International Human Rights Law as it is demonstrated in the International Human Rights Instruments which Tanzania has ratified them. To mention a few of them are:}

_{The African (Banjul) Charter on Human and Peoples’ Rights}

_{This is a regional human rights instrument intended to reflect the traditions, history, values and growth of Africa. Adopted by member states on 17 June 1981 and entered into force on 21 October 1986. Article 2 of this Charter is against discrimination of any kind in Africa. For instance, to quote the article reads as follows:}

_{“Every individual shall be entitled to the enjoyment of the rights and freedoms recognized and guaranteed in the present Charter without distinction of any kind such as race, ethnic group, color, sex, language, religion, political or any other opinion, national and social origin, fortune, birth or other status.”}

_{Article 3(1) says;}

_{1.” Every individual shall be equal before the law.”}

_{Article 4}

_{“Human beings are inviolable. Every human being shall be entitled to respect for his life and the integrity of his person. No one may be arbitrarily deprived of his right.”}

_{Article 19}

_{“All peoples shall be equal: they shall enjoy the same respect and shall have the same rights. Nothing shall justify the domination of a people by another.”}

_{And article 28 states that “Every individual shall have the duty to respect and consider his fellow beings without discrimination, and to maintain relations aimed at promoting, safeguarding and reinforcing mutual respect and tolerance”}

_{Therefore, LGBTQ+persons in Tanzania deserves to enjoy these rights, because they are also human beings.}

_{In 2014 the African Commission on Human and People’s Rights did adopt a resolution for condemning violence which basis on gender and sexual orientation identity. Whereby all state parties were required to make sure that human rights defenders are permitted to work in free environments. Also, proper procedures, and impartiality are followed when dealing with cases of violence and abuses done against sexual minorities people.}

_{The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights}

_{This covenant comprises legal obligations which are to be assumed and implemented by states. For instance, such obligations are stated right from article 2 Part II of this covenant where by states are obliged to respect and make sure that each individual in their respective countries is given or enjoy the rights recognized by this covenant without any discrimination and where necessary legislative measures should be adopted for giving effects to those rights in the respective countries or states. For instance right to enjoy privacy as a human right is provided under Article 17(1),and the article says the following;}

_{“No one shall be subjected to arbitrary or unlawful interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence nor to unlawful attacks on his honor and reputation.”}

_{While the right of equality before the law is found in Article 26. The article articulates this;}

_{“All persons are equal before the law and are entitled without any discrimination to the equal protection of the law: In this respect the law shall prohibit any discrimination and guarantee to all persons equal and effective protection against discrimination on any ground such as race, color, sex, language, religion, political or other opinion, national or social origin, property, birth or other status.”}

_{Whereas Freedom of either join or form any association is granted under Article 22(1). Thus, the LGBTQ+ persons deserves to enjoy these rights similar to other citizens.}

_{The Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948}

_{Adopted by resolution 217(111) of the UN General Assembly on 10 December 1948.The UDHR is not aiming to impose legal responsibilities on states but relatively to establish objectives and goals to work towards. For example, right from Article 1 the declaration insists on freedom and dignity of a human being, the article recites this;}

_{“All human beings are born free and equal in dignity and rights. They are endowed with reason and conscience and should act towards one another in a spirit of brotherhood.”}

_{While discrimination of whatever type is discouraged in Article 2. And the article enunciates as follows;}

_{“Everyone is entitled to all the rights and freedoms set forth in this declaration, without distinction of any kind, such as race, color, sex, language, religion, political, or other opinion, national or social origin, property, births or other status.”}

_{Right to privacy is given in Article 12, whereas the article requires this;}

_{“No one shall be subjected to arbitrary interference with his privacy, family, home or correspondence nor to attacks upon his honor and reputation. Everyone has the right to the protection of the law against such interference or attack.”}

_{And freedom of association and assembly is provided in article 20(1) where the article reads as follows;}

_{1.” Everyone has the right to freedom of peaceful assembly and association”}

_{Even the LGBTQ+ are inclusive in enjoying these rights because they are human beings.}

_{Way Forward for the LGBTQ+ Persons}

_{Since the fate of the LGBTQ+ persons and homosexual’s rights and life are in total darkness of danger then, they have to fight for their rights. Perhaps choosing a legal avenue through knocking to the Courts of law corridors to challenge the unconstitutionality of some Penal Code sections especially those spotted to be discriminatory in order to change the status quo is the best option otherwise, their fate will continue to remain in risk, as Mwesiumo J. (as he then was), once did when he said:}

_{“This is a temple of justice and nobody should fear to enter it to battle his legal redress as provided by the law of the land”}

_{Mwesiumo J. referred Courts of law as temples of justice, and law of the land to the Constitution of Tanzania. Whereas the locus stands to the LGBTQ+ is under Article 30(3) of the Constitution which provides this;}

_{“Any person claiming that any provision in this part of this Chapter or in any law concerning his right or duty owed to him has been, is being or is likely to be violated by any person anywhere in the United Republic, may institute proceedings for redress in the High Court”}

_{Considering that in Tanzania Courts of law are regarded as “Temples of Justice” therefore, it is hopeful that going to court may help to remove this legal dilemma and legal ambiguities which is a deadlock for same-sex relationship persons to enjoy Constitutional and Human rights enshrined in both the Constitution and in International Human Rights Instruments in which Tanzania has already ratified them. The path of using Courts of Law avenues to seek annulment of some unconstitutional legislations or opposing some oppressive sections of certain legislation, is not a new phenomenon in Tanzania, it has been happening in several occasions, because it is a Constitution opportunity given to citizens to challenge bad laws in the nation, this opportunity is in article 13(2) of the Constitution, which states this:}

_{(2)” No law enacted by any authority in the United Republic shall make any provision that is discriminatory either of itself or in its effect”}

_{Consequently sections 154(2) and 155 of Penal Code which criminalizes Same-Sex mode of relationship in Tanzania are discriminative one and the sections are unconstitutional. So, article 13(2) of the Constitution permits the LGBTQ+ persons to proceed to Courts of Law to challenge those draconian Penal Code sections which violates their human rights. These draconian sections 154(2) and 155 of the Tanzanian Penal Code, are similar to Sections 162,163, and section 165 of the Kenyan Penal Code, yet Kenyans have succeeded to knock on the doors of Courts of law to oppose these unreasonable sections, driving their locus stand from section 27(4) of the Constitution of Kenyan,2010. In Erick Gitary v. Attorney General, and Another (Petition №150 of 2016). In this case a petitioner-Eric Gitary, from and representing the Kenyan National Gay and Lesbian Rights Commission (NGLHRC) argues that sections 162 (a) and © and sections 165 of the Penal Code (Cap 63) of (Kenyan Laws denies some basic rights to some Kenyans and therefore those sections are in breach of the Constitution petitioner’s rights. Since 2016 Erick Gitary the petitioner was asking the Court to strike down sections 162(a) and © and section 165 of the Penal Code (Cap 63) which Criminalize Consensual Same -Sex Relations between adults. On 21st February 2023 the Supreme Court in Kenya dismissed an appeal which was presented by the government of Kenya to stop the registration applications of the LGBTQ+persons in Kenya seeking for their organization be officially registered so that they can perform their activities in a formal way. In March 2024 the Supreme Court of Kenya issued a judgement which contained the following views:}

_{(a)The action of authorities concerned with Non-Governmental Organizations registration in Kenya refusing to register the LGBTQ+request as an official Non-Governmental Organization, it is a violation of human rights which bases on sexual orientation.}

_{(b)It was discriminatory because it is against section 27(4) of the Constitution of Kenya. Section 27(4) of Kenya Constitution provides this;}

_{“state shall not discriminate direct or indirectly against any person on any ground, including race, sex, pregnancy, marital status, health status, ethnic or social origin, color, age, disability, religion, conscience, belief, culture, dress, language or birth.”}

_{The Supreme Court judges further added that limiting the right of association to the LGBTQ+ persons in Kenya by refusing to register their association such act is unconstitutional because it is a discrimination which root in sexual orientation. ©The judges held that the decision of the board to deny registration of LGBTQ+ persons organization was both unjustifiable and unreasonable. Yet on the other side the registration authority grounds of refusal to register an LGBTQ+ organization came from sections 162,163, and 165 of the Penal Code. On this, the Supreme Court further commented that, a denial of registration of the society which would give a right of association to the LGBTQ+ persons, it is a Conviction before breaking the law. Therefore, the action of refusing to register it is a violation of appellants rights of enjoying Constitutional rights of freedom of association which is provided under article 36 of the Kenyan Constitution. However, the court made it clear that those who will be caught practicing same sex relationship will face the Penal code punishment because it is contrary to these illegal sections 162,163, and 165 of the said legislation.}

_{Judgement of the Supreme Court of Kenya has come in favor of the LGBTQ+persons because it has allowed them to either form or join associations the opportunity which was previously denied, although the Penal Code sections 162,163 and 165 were not quashed but still the decision is a big victory to the improvement, development and recognition of the LGBTQ+ Community in Kenya, Perhaps the battle for inhuman Penal Code sections 162,163, and 165 is to continue.}

_{The same can be done to the Tanzanian LGBTQ+ Community, they can go to Courts of Law using article 13(1)(2) (4) and (5) of the Constitution which pronounces this;}

_{(1) ‘’All persons are equal before the law and are entitled, without any discrimination, to protection and equality before the law”}

_{(2) “No law enacted by any authority in the United republic shall make any provision that is discriminatory either of itself or in its effect”}

_{(4) “No person shall be discriminated against by any person or any authority acting under any law or in the discharge of the functions or business of any office.”}

_{(5) “For the purpose of this Article the expression “discriminate” means to satisfy the needs, rights or other requirements of different persons on the basis of their nationality,tribe,place of origin, political opinion,color,religion,sex,or station in life such that certain categories of people are regarded as weak or inferior and are subjected to restrictions or condition whereas persons of other categories are treated differently or are accorded opportunities or advantage outside the specified conditions or the prescribed necessary qualifications except that the word “discrimination” shall not be construed in a manner that will prohibit the Government from taking purposeful steps aimed at rectifying disabilities in the society”}

_{as a supportive article, which is similar to Section 27(4) of Kenya Constitution as it was used by the Supreme Court of Kenya to allow registration of LGBTQ+ persons association together with International Human Rights Instruments which have been mentioned in this paper to ask Courts of law to strike out sections 154(2) and 155 of the Tanzanian Penal Code, and to ask Courts to declare that any application for registration of LGBTQ+ group as a Non-Governmental Organization or association should be allowed because it is part of enjoyment of both Constitution and Human rights as it is guaranteed in International Human Rights Law, and in the Constitution, this is according to article 20(1),the article articulates this;}

_{(1). “Every person has a freedom, to freely and peaceably assemble, associate and cooperate with other persons, and for that purpose, express views publicly and to form and join with associations or organizations formed for purpose of preserving or furthering his beliefs or interests or any other interests.”}

_{Thus, the LGBTQ+persons in Tanzania have the right to either form or join organizations for promoting their interests. In south Africa the LGBTQ+persons passed through the same struggle which later on it resulted to an official recognition of the LGBTQ+ from a judicial battle in Minister of Home Affairs and Another v. Fourie and Others; Lesbian and Gay Equality Project 2006(1) SA524(CC) where Court;}

_{“Declared that same sex couples should enjoy the benefit of marriage, the executive and the parliament in South Africa accepted and implemented these decisions within the spirit of doctrine of separation of powers and checks and balances.”}

_{Bearing in mind that “the South African Constitution has been hailed as one of the best constitutions in the world and being an African country”.}

_{In Young v. Australia, Communication 941/2000, UNH COMMITTEE (12 August 2003) UN DOC CCPR/C78/D/941/2000(2003). It was stated that same sex partners have got the right to get benefits from the government similar to heterosexual domestic partners.}

_{The Paradigm Shift}

_{It is right time now for the Tanzanian society, government and Africa in general to realize that there is a paradigm shift, where people are well-informed, since this is an information age where people are very knowledgeable, up-to-date, so enlightened, and educated about the world due to globalization with the help of New Media and Internet hence people are much aware about human rights. This is an age where a thirst for freedom of expression is high that is why even the minority groups like people of the same sex relationship are coming out fearlessly so as to demand for their denied rights. This is unstoppable wind of change which is blowing across the globe.And Africa is not an exceptional, it is an irresistible wind until rights of sexual minorities becomes recognized. This is why in some enlightened countries which cares much about human rights like the Netherlands, South Africa, and some other nations or states in Europe and North America, have already recognized rights of the LGBTQ+persons, even the Vatican under Pope Francis (Jorge Mario Bergoglio the 266th Pope) is beginning to soften its stand by permitting blessings to people of the same sex relationship, while there are live evidences of presence of homosexual bishops in the Anglican church. It is undeniably this is a paradigm shift, therefore, it is hoped that this is a particular time for Africa and Africans to accept changes, because African societies are not static or unchanged, they are dynamic.}

_Conclusion

_{Laws which criminalize same-sex relationship and the LGBTQ+persons in overall should be reviewed or annulled because they are unjustifiable, unreasonable, unconstitutional, vague, Un-African and they are against human rights. It is shame that at this contemporary world, still there are some secular nations like Tanzania choose to allow discriminatory laws to operate within its Judicial System. “No enough is enough” these unconstitutional laws containing some ambiguous sections must be abandoned immediately because they are out-of-date. In this regard it is expected that all inequitable legislations are going to be declared null and void, while Courts of law are supposed to be in front line in defending and protecting human rights in the Tanzania.}

_{BIBLIOGRAPHY:}

_Book

_{Makungu J.Holle. Checks and Balances Under the Tanzanian Constitution, Mwanza: Inland Press,2012.}

_{Mwaluka Wiililie, etal. Police Source Book on Human Rights, Malawi Police Service and Malawi Human Rights Resource Center MHRRC.}

_{Mwase Sylvie and Jjuuko Adrian. Protecting the Human Rights of Sexual Minorities in Contemporary Africa, Pretoria: Pretoria University Law Press,2017}

_Reports

_{Sida,”The Rights of The LGBTI People in Tanzania” December 2014.http://www.sida.se(accessed June 10.2024)}

_Theses

_{Lindro Malin Och Lundgren Elin. “Gay Rights of Importance in Kenya. A Frame Analysis on the Kenyan Debate of Homosexuality” Bachelor’s Thesis, Uppsala-Universitet,15hp, Spring, Uppsala University,2021.}

_Articles:

_{Maina P. Chris. “Five Years of Bill of Rights in Tanzania: Drawing A Balance Sheet” Eastern Africa Law ReviewVolume.18 No 2(1991):147–167}

_{Mwakalonge A.L. Isakwisa “On the Ongoing Campaign Witch-Hunt Against Homosexuals in Tanzania”In-Sight Publishing(2018).http://www.in-sightjournal.com.(accessed April 25,2024)}

_{Obidima Emmanuel and Obidima Angelina.”The Travails of Same Sex Marriage Relations Under Nigerian Law”Journal of Law,Policy and Globalisation.ISSN 2224–3240(PAPER)ISSN222–4}

_{3259(Online)Volume.17(2013)http://www.iiste.org(accessed May 10,2024)}

_{List of Legislations}

_{National Laws}

_{The Constitution of Kenya,2010.}

_{The Constitution of the United Republic of Tanzania,1977.}

_{The Penal Code (Cap 63) (Kenyan Laws.}

_{The Penal Code Cap.16 Revised Edition in 2022 (Tanzanian Laws)}

_{List of International and Regional Legal Instruments}

_{The African Charter on Human and Peoples’ Rights.}

_{The International Covenant on Civil and Political Rights.}

_{The Universal Declaration of Human Rights 1948.}

_Websites

_{www.ntvkenya.co.ke.accessed May 17,2024.}

_{https://www.cnn.com.accessed May 19 2024.}

_{Table of Cases}

_{Erick Gitary v. Attorney General, and Another (Petition №150 of 2016)}

_{Minister of Home Affairs and Another v. Fourie and Others; Lesbian and Gay Equality Project 2006(1) SA524(CC)}

_{Young v. Australia. Communication 941/2000, UNH COMMITTEE (12 August 2003) UN DOC CCPR/C78/D/941/2000(2003)}

_License

_{In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.}

_{Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.Copyright© Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing 2012-Present. Unauthorized use and/or duplication of this material without express and written permission from this site’s author and/or owner is strictly prohibited. Excerpts and links may be used, provided that full and clear credit is given to Scott Douglas Jacobsen, or the author(s), and In-Sight Publishing with appropriate and specific direction to the original content. All interviewees and authors copyright their material, as well, and may disseminate for their independent purposes.}

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: March 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 12

Issue Numbering: 3

Section: A

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 31

Formal Sub-Theme: None.

Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2024

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2024

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Word Count: 7,156

Image Credits: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the publication.*

Abstract

A seasoned Musician (Vocals, Guitar and Piano) Filmmaker, and Actor, J.D. Mata has composed 100’s of songs, performed 100’s of shows and venues throughout. He has been a regular at the legendary “Whisky a Go Go,” where he has wooed audiences with his original shamanistic musical performances. He has written and directed numerous feature films, webseries, and music videos. Also, JD has appeared on various national TV commercials and shows. Memorable appearances are TRUE BLOOD (HBO) as Tio Luca, THE UPS Store National television commercial, and the lead in the Lil Wayne music video, HOW TO LOVE  with over 129 million views. J.D. was also the lead, as a MOHAWK MEDICINE MAN in the spiritual based film KATERI, which won the prestigious “Capex Dei”  award at the Vatican in Rome. J.D. co-starred, performed and wrote the music for the original world premier play, AN ENEMY of the PUEBLO – by one of today’s preeminent Chicana writers, Josefina Lopez! This is J.D.’s third Fringe, last year he wrote, directed and starred in the Fringe Encore Performance  award winning, “A Night at the Chicano Rock Opera.” He is currently in season 2 of his NEW YouTube series, ROCK god! J.D is a native of McAllen, Texas and resides in North Hollywood, California. Mata discusses: classical influences; Tejano and other traditional forms of music; introduction to chords; the Penfield Map; eccentricities; Naked at Night on PodTV; the role of Yahweh in films; the geographic border; make your little mark; and mental health issues and struggles.

Keywords: Tejano music origins, Radical Latino Fusion, classical music influences, Barry Manilow fan, Tejano music pioneer, Lance Versus Rick, Naked at Night PodTV, Catholic choir director, independent filmmaking, mental health in artists.

Conversation with JD Mata on Musical Works, Directing, and Production

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: Were there any significant classical influences on you?

JD Mata: In terms of music, the earliest thing I can remember is diverse stuff. My earliest remembrance is listening to the Commodores and listening to the 70s stuff. I was a huge Barry Manilow fan. That is what I was exposed to in terms of TV. I remember seeing Barry Manilow in concert in the 70s. Oh my God! I was in love with his music, sound, and look. I was always a big power ballad freak – the ballads. Barry Manilow, Eric Harman, “All by myself.”

I have always been a hopeless romantic. I have been in love for as long as I can remember. Something about the ballads that touched me: so, that was, initially, my influence. I remember hearing “Yesterday” by Paul McCartney. I had yet to discover The Beatles. That song was my dad’s favourite song. “Three Times a Lady,” that influenced me. I was influenced by it. My dad was a musician. He taught me my first chords on a guitar. The music that he would sing. My dad sang beautifully—some of the traditional Spanish ballads and rancheras. The waltzes are in Spanish, and those conventional Spanish songs are, too. I was informed and influenced by those as well. I have an album called “A Souled Out Performance.”

I call it Radical Latino Fusion, a Spanish waltz with a powerful melody. It’s a mishmash or an array of everything I’ve been influenced by, but to answer your question: Mainly, the power ballads from the 70s and, as I got older, Tejano music. I am one of the pioneers of Tejano music. Tejano music is German polka with Spanish lyrics and keyboards and horns. There was a massive influx of Germans into Southern Mexico. They brought the accordions and polkas. Back in the 20s, the 30s, and the 40s, that’s a South Texas border town, McAllen, Texas. 5 miles from the border. The Germans brought the polkas. Of course, the Natives also learned the polkas and then would put Spanish lyrics to it. Tejano music evolved from that. That’s what Tejano music is: a polka or a cumbia (an offshoot of the polka) with Spanish lyrics. 

I started with a Tejano band as a freshman in high school. I formed my band. It is not like you would have a cover band because there wasn’t a Tejano band. So, we wrote our music. It is bizarro because the power ballads informed me, but then I got into Tejano music. But there wasn’t anything Tejano per se. My dad taught me the first few chords when I got my first guitar. Within the first few days, I wrote my first song. I must have written about 40 or 50 Tejano songs with my Tejano band. That was how I influenced myself (I know this sounds bizarre). I would listen to the stuff we would do. Many musicians are like this. I do not really listen to a lot of music, but I do listen to classical music now. I love classical music. I have written a couple of classical pieces on the piano. I wish I had started with that because if you can play classical music, you can play anything. It is complex. It is gorgeous. It has all of the elements you need in music theory. I wrote a fugue, which is fascinating to me. 

You have your melody, then change the keys regarding the counterpoint. I am rambling a bit. 

Jacobsen: Hidden, there is another point or question. Do Tejano and other traditional forms of music, or blends of “traditional” music, emphasize different parts of musical theory more than others, whereas what is termed “classical music” or classical European music emphasizes a broader base of that theory of music?

Mata: Tejano music is in its raw form; the essence is the 1, 4, 5. Let’s say we’re in the key of C: C, F, and G. C being the 1, F being the 4, and G being the 5. Most songs are based on the 1, 4, 5 formula. Then of that, you have all these inversions., You have a different version of playing it. You wouldn’t play a C like a centred C. You could play the fret as a power chord. Then, they play it as an open-form C. There are all these different inversions of C. As you transition to the 4, you have all these little base riffs that you can play, even jazz inversion. These cats, these kids that grew up playing jazz, now play Tejano. They dress up and add flavour to the transition and the chord. As you are playing the C, you are playing all these variants – what classical is, too. You are playing or singing the melody. You are playing the basic chord. You could have the bass player play a counterpoint to the melody. It is dressing it up in terms of the bass. Tejano has a considerable jazz and classical influence, as well. 

Jacobsen: When did this start? What approximate age were you getting this introduction to chords from your Father and writing your first music within the first couple of days?

Mata: I was, probably, 7 or 8. That was when I had the capability in terms of talent. I could physically, in terms of the textual aspect, do it. My fingers were long enough. My dad taught me the first couple of chords at 7. He taught me C. He taught me F. He taught me G. He taught me E and A. One of the things I remember from my Father is that he taught me to her the changes, to hear when the transition from the 1 to the 4, and then to the 1 to 5. He taught me the technical aspects of listening to music and switching to the proper chords. I was about 7 or 8. My first chord was E: E, A, then B7. Then I wrote a song called “Desperados.” I remember writing it on a tablet. “We’re the desperados.” It came naturally to me. Writing came naturally to me. One of my big regrets is that it is what it is. I did practice my instrument because I was writing, composing, and creating stuff. That came easy to me. My focus is to write my music. 

I wish I had put the same effort into writing songs for my instrument. I could have been a virtuoso in my instrumentation, guitar, and piano. Before our session, I was late because I was practicing. I practice every day. Piano, guitar, and voice; also, in terms of film, I have to be ready when I get an opportunity. Opportunities have come up. I wish I would have honed the skill and getting the right instructors. My parents worked. My Father taught me the basics. He was a phenomenal musician. I only had teachers to teach me the basics. I was competent, but mainly with rhythm guitar.

My focus was always, though, on the songwriting aspect of it, the stories and stuff. Later in life, I realized. “Man, I should get my instrument skills up to par. My saving grace is that Herbie Hancock says, “You have to play like yourself.” I have mastered the art of myself, learning how to play like myself and maximizing my potential in terms of what I can do now. I was about 7, 8, 9 years old. That was when I wrote my first song. Again, a long answer to a simple question. Thank you, Scott.

Jacobsen: There is something in the central nervous system, in the brain, called the Penfield Map. Suppose you were to check which parts of the extended nervous system, peripheral nervous system, that pick up information – fingertips, lips, genitalia – are more sensitive and pick up sensory information. Those parts in the Penfield Map are enlarged compared to other body parts because they bring in more information. An overlay of the Penfield Map runs along here [shows]. It shows the lips being huge and the fingertips being tremendous. Other parts are being shrunk in proportion to how big it is. There may be evidence for this. The instrument that an individual primarily plays would, over a long period, get mapped onto the Penfield Map as if it is an extension of the body, so individuals who play quite involved instruments like the piano. That then gets mapped onto the Penfield Map or an extension of it. So, that is when they are playing an instrument and are virtuosos. It is the instrument acting as an extension of itself. They are in unison at a neurological level, whether talking about gross anatomy or microstructure. This habit you build daily, whether voice or instrument, is essential. I would bet. If we did a brain scan, you might have something akin to the instrument being a part of yourself. 

Mata: 100%, I articulated that to myself. Using your exact words, my guitar is an extension of myself. The piano has to be an extension of me. I put myself under high pressure in front of people or at auditions. It has to be so natural. It has to be as if I am brushing my teeth as if it is a part of me – a limb. I can pull it off in those high-pressure situations without a spectacular disaster. I completely agree and understand. 

Jacobsen: It may explain when you watch someone good at an instrument, whatever it is. They have certain eccentricities or aspects of their behaviour, where someone who doesn’t know what it is like to watch someone be with an instrument or be a voice when they haven’t been part of a choir (me) or practiced an instrument and playing since age 7. It doesn’t seem that eccentric when you have that experience. They’re, in a way, playing themselves. To that paraphrase or quote you mentioned earlier, those behaviours bring out those eccentricities because they express themselves naturally. There was a Canadian pianist, Glenn Gould, who used to hum. They kept those on the records. It was one of those eccentricities. It probably came from being absorbed into the instrument.

Mata: Oh my God, yes! It is not only, for me, a responsibility to my… I was summoned. Ever since the pandemic, it’s been rough for me as an artist, e.g., financially. Several people who know me and know I am an artist say, “You need to get a job. You need to get a real job.” Usually, I say, “Thank you for the suggestions.” For me, I didn’t choose it. I am not trying to be dramatic. For me, I was summoned to do this. I didn’t pick it. I didn’t choose it. My DNA and my archetypes summoned me. I come from a family of artists. They’re all artists. My great-grandfather they were a travelling circus. I was summonsed by them, by the DNA in my blood, to do this. I am doing it now in terms of my music and filmmaking. I was chosen to do it at the elite level in Los Angeles. So, it is a huge responsibility. 

Once I had that insight – “Wow,” I was picked, in terms of my blood, “Oh, fuck.” So, I have got to come through. 

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Mata: So, yes, the humming becomes part of your instrument. I played and sang when I was playing, particularly since I have never been married and do not have children. I play from my album every day. Every day, I practice “A Souled Out Performance.” I called it that because this is part of the answer, and another issue was being a choir director for the last 43 years. I have since taken a leave of absence from choir directing. That is a whole other issue. I used to practice at the church auditorium, school, and church. I had access. I used to go there at 2 or 3 in the morning because I lived in this studio apartment. I am a night owl. I practice late at night on the piano. That is where I was writing these songs. It’s a vast auditorium that seats about 370 people. One night! After all these years, I looked up. I thought I saw the place filled – every seat – with spirits. I thought, “Holy shit!” I am huge in the spirit world. 

It’s like, “Oh, wow!” So, I thought, “It’s sold out.” All these souls “Souled out in the spirit world.” That is where I got the title “A Souled Out Performance.” There are about 30 or 33 songs on that album. They are all the Radical Latino Fusion. Every day, I practice the songs. I have never been married and don’t have children. These songs are my babies, my kids. Growing up, if you’re a parent, there are certain things you do every day. You feed your kid. You make sure your kid has clothes. It is routine. It is like playing scales every day on the piano. For me, these songs are my kids. I have to feed them every day. I have to make sure that they have water, that they have food, that they have life. Those are my children. So, I practice those songs every day because I gave those kids birth. 

I want them to grow up to be responsible adults. When I put them out to the world, it’s funny. When I play them at shows, I will play these songs because I do a bunch of gigs. I’ll do like “Red, Red Wine.” I’ll sneak in my original. People are still moving as if it’s a huge hit. I look at the kids. Children will always tell the truth. Part of why they give such a great response is that I have nurtured my children. I have fed them. I have taken care of them. All of that is part of the sacrifice for your kids. I am starving for my kids, in terms of somebody saying to me, “Go get a job.” I go, “This is what I do. I can’t let my kids starve. I have to practice. I have to play.” All those elements go into part of the psyche, the brain, the musician, the performer, and the archetypes, DNA. In that dimension and this dimension, feeling you are part of the instrument is feeling the song as a part of you. I wonder if I answered the question. 

Jacobsen: I have interviewed part of a series you run, interviewing Rick Rosner and Lance Richlin. Rick is a liberal comedy writer. Lance is a conservative painter. Both are not entirely entrenched in their views, often not listening to the entirety of the other individual’s point of view. I think that is the crux in this original series called Lance Versus Rick, now called Naked at Night on PodTV, available on all wonderful internet everywhere. So, how did you get involved in Lance Versus Rick’s project? So people know you are the disembodied voice of questioning. 

Mata: I met Rick at the gym. I met him probably in 2007 or 2008. I was intrigued with him. He would do his sets, and then he’d be reading a book. He was the only guy in the gym with a book. We got to talking. I connected with him. At the time, he was still a writer for Kimmel. I had an instant connection with him. Around that time, I was creating this web series, Wisdom and All His Wisdom. I had yet to find the lead actor. I thought, “Rick would be perfect.” Even though I never saw him act. I knew he would be great. I might have seen him in a Domino’s commercial.

Jacobsen: That’s right! [Laughing] He was in that.

Mata: He said, “Yeah, yeah.” Rick, anything to do with the arts. We’ll do it, whether Indie or others. You can find it on YouTube. We did five or ten episodes. So then, that ran over about a year. Then, we would always see each other. He would have stuff where he would bring me on board. He had already seen my filmmaking skills and operating camera, sound, and lighting. Then, cut to the future, he had this idea for Lance Verssu Rick. He called me. I am an editor, too. So, he said, “Would you be interested in producing this show for us and doing all of the technical aspects for it, in terms of the shooting, the lighting, and the audio aspect of it?” I would edit it for him.

I am a political science minor. I have always been interested in politics. I have been a newshound all my life. As I shared before, I have no dog in this fight. For me, I love it. As an artist, I have chosen not to make my politics known. If people want to ask me, They can ask me. What I do, my message is my art, which is the perfect pitch for Rick’s show. He needs someone in the middle. 

I would talk to him. I had insights into both the left and the right. So, part of my job description was also coming up with topics. So, I took a deep dive into the issues as well. Now, I present to them the topics. Also, I could add because I grasp the topics. If Lance had an argument he was making with Rick, if he was missing parts of it, then I would chime in. It would piss Rick off. If Rick would miss something in terms of an issue, then I would say, “What about this?” It is a great way to get them to fight with each other. 

Jacobsen: Basically, you are performing the role of Yahweh in films, proverbially the finger coming in and poking the protagonists of the literature.

Mata: Yes [Laughing], exactly.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] How did the Catholic choir directing come into the music timeline for you, too? How did getting involved in conducting or being a choir director in a Catholic or musical setting start?

Mata: So, I am Catholic. I grew up Catholic. My parents would take my brother. I am the younger. I have an older brother and an older sister. We go to church every Sunday, which I love. I loved going to church. I was now part of the CCD on Saturdays, Catechism, Religious Education, and something by a different name. I love it. The Catholic doctrine, for me, isso solid, the people who run it. People are flawed, but it is what it is. That is a whole other Oprah. All my experiences growing up as a kid with the Catholic Church were great. The priests were incredible.

I loved going to Mass—the whole ritual of it. There’s something about ritual. Practicing every day is church for me. Running, I work out. It is a ritual. Something about the ritual aspect of the Catholic Church fascinates me. I love and adore it. It was right up my alley. I remember when my dad started teaching me guitar. I told many kids at CCD on Saturdays because I didn’t go to Catholic school, which may have been my saving grace. If you didn’t go to Catholic school, you went to CCD. I remember telling the kids that I was playing guitar. On one of those Saturdays, I had been playing guitar for six months. The nun’s name, Sister Mary Jane, was hers. 

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Mata: These were like liberal nuns. They only wore part of the habit. They wore the dresses without it. She was cool. She came in one day. She pointed at me, “Come with me.” I’m like, “Me?” She says, “We need to talk to you.” I’m like, “What did I do? I was the valedictorian of that class. Why am I being taken to the principal’s office, if you will?” She says, “You will be in our choir, the 9 a.m. Mass. We have rehearsals at 8 a.m. This is where we are going to meet. This is the parent permission slip. Let your mom know.” I was like, “Ah.” Again! I was summoned! I was summoned. I go home. I tell her, “I cannot do it.” I’m just learning to play the guitar. I was starting to… “I don’t want to do it.” She says, “You don’t have to do it.” I go, “Great!” I give her the paper. She goes, “What is this?” And I remember this like it was yesterday. I go, “Here’s the permission slip and her phone number; you can just call her and let her know. I am not going to go.” She goes, “Oh, no, if you don’t want to go, you have to call her.” Here I am, I am 58. I have been a choir director ever since.

Again, I was summoned to it. I was picked. They say, “God doesn’t pick the best people to do his work.” Man, that is so true, because me as a choir director – eh. That is how it started. I ended up loving it. I adored it. I was 7, 8, or 9. So then, that choir went into another choir. Eventually, when I was a freshman in college, I became the choir director of that church: Our Lady of Perpetual Help. It was a small choir with three or four singers. We weren’t getting paid. I did that for many years. Throughout high school, and then when I was a freshman in college, there was Our Lady of Sorrows, which was one of the biggest churches in South Texas. They were looking for a new choir director. One of the choir members, Vicky, was her name; she and I were friends. She said, “We need a choir director. You can do it.” I said, “I have never conducted a choir, per se.” She said, “You can do it.” I remember going.

I was in college at the time, and it was one of the things that you learn in college. You know how to get information: Start, finish, and get information. I remember going to the library. I picked up a bunch of books on conducting. In terms of auditioning and getting the gig, it was my crash course in conducting. So, I was a choir director for about four years. Then I remember after I graduated. The pastor said to me, “We have helped you graduate.” They paid me well. I paid my way through college. “We paid your way through college, so you owe us a year of service at the Catholic.” I taught at a Catholic school for a year. I was a Social Studies teacher and a music teacher. When I moved to Los Angeles in 1999, one of the first jobs I took was choir director at St. Charles. I was there from 21 to 2023. This is going to sound ridiculous.

I am one of the world’s top 100 choir directors. I am not saying that I am the most skilled conductor, but I facilitate singing at church and song selection. I always said, “As a choir director, it is a huge responsibility because you have the Father, the Son, and the Holy Spirit.” You have the Father, which is the liturgy of the Word. You have the Son, which is communion. You have the Holy Spirit in Mass. The whole spirit of service is singing. If you walk into Catholic churches a lot, no one is singing. Nondenominational people are singing. 

There is this false premise. There are a lot of choir directors in the Catholic Church who want to sound great. It is not a performance. Our job is to facilitate singing. I have the tools. I know exactly what I must do to motivate and encourage people to sing and fill the church with the Holy Spirit. Many pastors, even the pastors, don’t see it. In that regard, I see myself as one of the top 100 choir directors in the world. I consider myself one of the most fascinating Latinos in the world because I am a choir director, filmmaker, musician, and dancer. I do all of these things. One of the most interesting Mexican-Americans in the world. That is the story behind being a choir director. 

Jacobsen: So, you not only grew up as someone at the geographic border. You have developed as someone intellectual and skilled border. The crossroads of all these different things. You have this musical talent, skill development, and maintenance every day as a sort of styling and a form of worship. You have a Catholic upbringing, teaching, and choir conducting. At the same time, in the filming with Rick and Lance, You have a broader palette of filming. When did you get involved in the earlier stages of doing, more or less, independent film work, editorial work, and the technology behind it? I heard some individuals, particularly from the United States, comment on the fact that for individuals coming into this field – this weird field – of film with production and lighting, voice acting, voice coaches, and method acting. With all this different stuff, there is an aspect that more or less people come in. They will start by getting coffee for someone. Still, amid their career development, they do almost every single part. Someone directing will figure out how to do nearly every other aspect of the film – similarly to how you describe yourself and your professional development. You must know all these skills to make something work from a top-down level. How did the film part of your life come to the fore? How did you develop all those skills together so you had the complete package to pursue that dream? The thing in which you were “summoned.” 

Mata: Great question, again. I moved to Los Angeles on October 7, 1999. Before that, I had always wanted to be – that was my secret – an actor. I didn’t know at the time that I wanted to make films. What I did know, as I said, is that I have always been creating stories in my head. Everything to me was very… I saw things in terms of a story and pictures. As a kid, I would see my brother play baseball. I always saw myself as a baseball player. I would create a story of myself as a baseball player. I saw Barry Manilow. I started making the storyline of me as the piano player. My superpower was that I would execute those dreams. That’s always been like that. It has come naturally to perform these stories that I would create. It has always been my secret that I want to be an actor. I never told anybody. Even though I got picked as the lead in my school plays, I always terms of taking it to the next level – to the high level, to the elite level. South Texas is, back in the 1980s and the 1990s… it was wild. It was in my DNA. I always figured that’s what I needed to do. There is another dimension, a whole story, of how I moved from being a Tejano artist in South Texas to moving to Hollywood. With so many things and moving parts, I eventually decided to move to Los Angeles, which I did. 

Then I got here. I realized that I had no skills in terms of film acting. It was a fact. That’s a whole other beast. The reality is acting; I do very well. It didn’t come easy to me. It wasn’t natural to me. It’s the same thing with music and art. It didn’t come easy to me. I got good at it because I practiced. What became accessible to me was composing. I could do that. I have a song that I released. I wrote the song in one night. The next night, I released the music video. It comes easy to me. In the acting part, I took some acting classes. It was rough. This is not to say that I didn’t have opportunities. I met this gentleman who is considered the entertainment guru in Los Angeles. He hooked me up with the casting director of General Hospital in 2003. I had an audition to be in General Hospital. I wasn’t ready. I fucked it up. I got nervous. I wasn’t prepared to be in the big leagues yet as an actor, per se. I say this because I did have opportunities at the early stages to break in. I had anxiety. I had to deal with anxiety. All of this is to set off the fact that I wasn’t getting any parts in terms of significant roles, yet, in terms of the elite, as an actor. I wasn’t getting cast. You would hear a lot. You still listen to it a lot. There need to be more Mexican-Americans in film. I thought to myself, “I’m not getting the part. How am I going to get better?” Again, I had this idea for a movie. This was around when Robert Rodriguez had El Mariachi. He did his film. He wrote a book called A Rebel Without a Group. That planted a seed in me. I could make my movie. This is the advent. 

This is when the cameras. These new Panasonic cameras could shoot standard definition in 24p. You could buy a camera that looked good for a couple of thousand dollars. Then I thought, “What if I write my script? What if I make my movie?”Being resourceful and knowing how to get information, I learned that from college. I went to the library. I felt the section on Filmmaking for Dummies. I read that. I scoured it. I have since met the guy who wrote that.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Mata: That was my film school! So, I wrote a script. I hired a director-photographer.   I cast myself as the lead. I did hire a director of photography. I had a small group. Luckily, I had a few friends who believed in me, who I met here in Los Angeles, who bought me the camera and funded the movie. They’re like $2,000. We made the movie. There are many intricacies. It is very detailed in terms of that story. Suffice it to say, I made this movie a feature film called Pan Dulce. It won a couple of awards. It won an audience. What I found with filmmaking per se, the writing of it, the shooting of it, the shots, then I had to learn how to edit it myself because I realized that I had to learn how to edit; I hired an editor. Right before I had to edit the movie, she had to go on a vacation to Hawaii. What?

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Classic. 

Mata: I had to do it myself. It came easy to me. I worked hours and hours and hours. It didn’t even work. It was like from the get-go; it was the direction of photography. He taught me some stuff. He taught me about drawing. He said, “Wow, you are a natural at this.” So, I made another movie right after that, From Behind the Sunflower, another Indie film. I made a third film. In Pan Dulce, I had Jeff Conway from Greece, who passed away and became a good friend, who starred in Pan Dulce. The third movie, What Happened, I Did, was within two or three years – 2003, 2004, and 2005. I did a film called The Divorce Ceremony. I invented the divorce ceremony because there was Nothing about it. Now, they are everywhere. I made a movie with Apollonia, who was the start of Purple Rain with Prince. Tom, who had been my DP for the first two films and halfway through this film. He got this job at this big, major film. He had to leave as my director of photography. I had been observing all this time.

Throughout this journey, I had to do everything. I learned lighting by doing it. Everything from audio to sound, I knew in making these independent films. Scheduling, as well as stuff like craft service, is also essential. Every aspect, including editing, makeup, special effects, and necessity, is the mother of all inventions. You push through no matter what; you make it work. These are all skills that came quickly to me. So, I made 14 films, feature films, a slew of five web series, and many music videos. I get hired for a bunch of stuff.

Regarding the editing aspect, I did it well. It is tedious for me. I am going to a point in terms of the actual filmmaking. Along the way, you have to learn all these different things because of necessity. When Rick met me and asked me, he observed that I had, mainly when we did the web series, the skills to do all these things competently. I would’ve loved to go to film school. But you can only do some things. I did not know I was going to be a filmmaker. 

You have to do the next syndicated thing. If I want to make a movie, will I attend film school? I cannot afford film school. You go and get books. You learn from people. Tying in the Catholic Church to filmmaking, religious people are afraid of going to Hell. Spiritual people have been there. 

Jacobsen: [Laughing]. 

Mata: To be a filmmaker, you have to be very spiritual because it is fucking Hell. It is a symbolic war. It is brutal. Most films that get started do not finish. Your spirit has to be in it. It has to be a calling. For me, it is the way I see it. Going back, it is part of being summoned. Along the way, I became a better actor because I would always cast myself in my films. If you say, “Why aren’t there enough Latinos in cinema?” What are you going to do about it? Yes, it is hard. There is discrimination. There is no doubt in everything. What am I going to do to fix it? For me, the solution is to do the work, do it, and put myself in there. For example, I’ve been discovered by two geniuses. One, Rick Rosner is a genius. He saw in me something special. So, through him, I may not have delusions of grandeur. It is what I am supposed to be doing. Secondly, I got cast by a director. His name is Joe Pytka. He is arguably the most excellent director in terms of commercials. He is the guy who did all the Super Bowl commercials. He is the one who did the first Superbowl commercial with the Olympian throwing something. After that, he would do all the primary Super Bowl commercials. He did all the Michael Jackson music videos. I have a first degree of separation from The Beatles because he did “Free as a Bird” and “Real Love.” He directed those, which was when The Beatles did the anthology. 

They were able to get a recording of John Lennon. There were three remaining Beatles. They put the recording over it. In any event, he casts me personally for a commercial for the UPS store commercial. So, he saw something special in me as an actor, too. I thought, “Obviously, it is not that I have delusions of grandeur because he is a giant. He is 6’9”. He cast me. So, again, all those things have come together. It is my journey into how I came into contact with Rick. Also, in terms of “How was I able to have all these resources?” I always say this. Warner Brothers, Universal, I am your wet dream. You got me to do your big-budget movies because I’ve made magic with 2 or 3 thousand-dollar projects. I know I could create something unique if I am given even a $1,000,000 budget. So, regarding being an author or having all these various tools at my disposal. It is because, from all these years, from 2003 to the present, of doing the work, doing feature films, and not having the money. So, if you need more money to be a makeup artist, you must learn how to do it. 

Lighting and all the required skills, a reporter once said, “It is a little arrogant to put your name all over.” I didn’t have a choice! I couldn’t afford to bring in all this help. Also, I enjoy doing it. If I enjoy it, I am sorry that you perceive it as arrogant that you want me to do all these different things. That’s the bottom line. I enjoy it. The only way to get better at it is to do it. 

Jacobsen: What do you consider of Hispanic-American, Latin-American, Mexican-American background director, actor, or producer highlights along those lines in your career so far? I don’t know. Americans use the term Hispanic American. Others will say Latin American. Regardless of that background, have there been any parts of your career that you consider essential highlights, too? Like you’re saying, take responsibility for that lack, dismiss the discrimination, and, in the future, make your little mark – making things a little bit better for the following people coming through?

Mata: Yes, as a matter of fact, when I first moved here, I used to cut my hair short. Like yours! Which looks incredible, by the way [Laughing]. I went to Tahoe back in, maybe, 2009, 2008. I was snowboarding. I face-planted. My face was a freaking grapefruit. I had a big old cut. I broke this part. Anyway, I was like the elephant man. I was depressed. I couldn’t do anything. I thought I was going to be disfigured. For about the next six months, I went through a minor depression. I have been through major depression. That is a different story. I couldn’t audition. I couldn’t do anything. My hair grew long. It was long. I let it grow long. It was the first time I had hair that long. I was getting ready to cut it. My face healed up. I still have a bump here. My face healed up. I said, “I will go back and cut my hair.” My agent called me, saying, “Have you cut your hair?” I go, “Nope, I am about to cut it now.” I thought she wanted me to cut it. She goes, “Don’t! Could you not cut it? You need to do to the studio for True Blood.” This is back in 2009/2010. She goes, “There is a part for a medicine man who is the guy they cast; there have been some contract disputes. They are not going to use him. They need to use somebody right away. It would help if you went in there. Do not even say, “Hello.” You need to be the part. You are dead. You are a spiritual medicine man. They are going to audition you from the moment you walk in. They are panicking. On the way out there, I called my mom. “Mom, I am going to audition to play this medicine man,” which in Spanish is a brujo, a curandero. She goes, “That’s interesting. Your great uncle,” her uncle, “was a medicine man in Mexico.” Don Julian. “What?” “Yes.” Here, I am summoned again; it is already in my DNA. I am there. I am a medicine man in my bloodline. I walk in. 

There are 15 other guys with long hair. They were saying pleasantries and hellos. I am putting a spell on the casting directors. I am your guy. I put a spell on them as a shaman. I am a shaman. It is in my blood. Twenty minutes later, they come back: “We want JD.”  I used my Mexican-American culture, my heritage, my DNA. I was at the right place and time for the right things to happen. I got a lead role in True Blood. That is an example of using my culture to my advantage. That is catching lightning in a bottle. Those come few and far between. I have to wait for the next one. Joe Pytka, I played a music producer. I put eyeliner on. I was like, “I am a musician.” Obviously, he saw that I was authentic. That is the trick to being an actor. You have to be accurate. It is almost like you’re not acting. You are being a character. So, that’s the trick, I think. To make my mark, even more so as an actor or in a significant way, I must be discovered by the right person at the right time for the right things to happen. I cannot leave a day before the miracle happens. I have been here since 1999. I am not about to get a real job and go because this is what I am meant to do. 

Jacobsen: You mentioned mental health issues and struggles. Is that a joint facet of life for artists in the Los Angeles area? 

Mata: I am writing a movie called Glorious Salvo Rhapsody. It is about a musician who commits suicide and goes into another dimension and gets redemption. I created my own heaven, hell, purgatory. It deals with mental health. I always say or joke around. If you do not leave Los Angeles broken and fucked up, you didn’t do it right. That is hyperbole. But I think that if you have predispositions for depression or predispositions for schizophrenia or some psychological issue, if you do not have the genetic predisposition, then you will probably, because of the stress and this industry that we are in… I always did well academically, really well, because I studied my ass off. In this industry, you can work hard, but Nothing will happen because it is so hard to get that break. The stressors are so high, and the disappointment is so high. If you have a predisposition for a mental health issue, then that will probably trigger it. It may be why so many suffer from depression or have a psychotic breakdown. There is much pressure. Once you get there, I sit in the dressing room in the trailer before I make a commercial or a movie. “Fuck, now, I am in it. Millions of dollars at stake.” There is much pressure on that. If you do have the predisposition and if you do not deal with it, there is the threat of some mental crisis. 

Jacobsen: JD, any final statements?

Mata: I am grateful to be doing this interview with you. Your questions are fascinating. I love my life. The trick is simply being my authentic self. 

Jacobsen: JD, thank you very much for your time today.

Mata: All right, bro; thanks, Scott. Great questions.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. Conversation with JD Mata on Musical Works, Directing, and Production. June 2024; 12(3). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mata

American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2024, June 22). Conversation with JD Mata on Musical Works, Directing, and Production. In-Sight Publishing. 12(3).

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. Conversation with JD Mata on Musical Works, Directing, and Production. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 12, n. 3, 2024.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2024. “Conversation with JD Mata on Musical Works, Directing, and Production.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12, no. 3 (Summer). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mata.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, S “Conversation with JD Mata on Musical Works, Directing, and Production.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12, no. 3 (June 2024).http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mata.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2024) ‘Conversation with JD Mata on Musical Works, Directing, and Production’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 12(3). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mata>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2024, ‘Conversation with JD Mata on Musical Works, Directing, and Production’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12, no. 3, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mata>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “Conversation with JD Mata on Musical Works, Directing, and Production.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.12, no. 3, 2024, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mata.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Scott J. Conversation with JD Mata on Musical Works, Directing, and Production [Internet]. 2024 Jun; 12(3). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/mata.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright © 2012-Present by Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing. Authorized use/duplication only with explicit permission from Scott Douglas Jacobsen. Excerpts, links only with full credit to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with specific direction to the original. All collaborators co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their purposes.

Publisher: In-Sight Publishing

Publisher Founding: March 1, 2014

Web Domain: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com

Location: Fort Langley, Township of Langley, British Columbia, Canada

Journal: In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal

Journal Founding: August 2, 2012

Frequency: Three (3) Times Per Year

Review Status: Non-Peer-Reviewed

Access: Electronic/Digital & Open Access

Fees: None (Free)

Volume Numbering: 12

Issue Numbering: 3

Section: A

Theme Type: Idea

Theme Premise: “Outliers and Outsiders”

Theme Part: 31

Formal Sub-Theme: None.

Individual Publication Date: June 22, 2024

Issue Publication Date: September 1, 2024

Author(s): Scott Douglas Jacobsen

Word Count: 4,413

Image Credits: None.

International Standard Serial Number (ISSN): 2369-6885

*Please see the footnotes, bibliography, and citations, after the publication.*

Abstract

JD Mata, Lance Richlin, and Rick Rosner started a show called “Naked at Night.” (There is no real nudity of them, as far as I know.) It formed out of “Lance versus Rick.” JD is a musician, producer, and director. Lance Richlin is a conservative and classical realist painter. Rick Rosner is a liberal and comedy writer. Here I talk to them about their new adaptation of the show through PodTV. They discuss: “Naked at Night,” the show on PodTV.

Keywords: Lance Versus Rick show, PodTV adaptation, liberal comedy writer, conservative artist debates, Rick Rosner art model, Lance Richlin conservatism, political argument show, JD Mata filmmaker, YouTube censorship, election misinformation, COVID-19 discussions.

“Naked at Night”: The Liberal, the Conservative, and the Director

Scott Douglas Jacobsen: So, you three have a show, adapted for PodTV, originally called Lance Versus Rick. Fundamentally, it is about a liberal comedy writer and conservative artist having talks about a wide range of topics. What was the original spark for that show?

Rick Rosner: I have been an art model. I haven’t done it that much lately or at all for decades. That is how I met Lance. He hired me to be his art model. Lance, you woke up to conservatism after 9/11. 

Lance Richlin: Right.

Rosner: I don’t know what we argued about before then. Maybe we didn’t argue at all. I always leaned liberal. I became more informed as a liberal when I worked as a late-night comedy writer because we had to be informed about the events of the day so we could write jokes about them. This whole divide became more dire and more loaded in the Trump era. I thought it would be an easy-to-do show that might be funny. The original idea was that I would pose naked, and Lance would draw or paint me. I thought it was funny for people to have a political argument while one of them was naked. I thought it would be easy to do. All you had to do was just set up a camera, courtesy of JD. In the interest of not having my d— all over the place, we started with my pants on. I have never been entirely naked on the show. That was in either late 2016 or early 2017, right after Trump had been elected.

Jacobsen: What about you, Lance?

Richlin: It didn’t work out the way I thought it would. We’re friends. But as soon as that show starts, boy, these arguments are shocking. I think that is kind of the way America is these days.

Rosner: Yes, it’s not like I am the most liberal person in the world. I put myself as less liberal than 30% of everybody. I’m guessing. I’d say Lance leans further to the conservative side than I do to the liberal side. But we are each fairlyintractable in our stances on the stuff that we disagree about. JD?

Jacobsen: How did you get involved, sir? 

JD Mata: I’m a filmmaker, musician, and director here in Los Angeles. I met Rick many, many years ago at the gym – great dude. At the time, I was shooting. Later, I wrote a web series called Wisdom and All His Wisdom. I asked Rick to star in it. He is great. He is a terrific actor. He is super smart. He is just a go-getter. He and I, in terms of pursuing the industry: He has been very successful, and I have been very successful in the Indie world. I say, “Rick, Rick!” I have a part for him. He comes. He is great.

Rosner: JD has written, produced, directed, cinematographed, cast, acted in, like – what? – close to a dozen feature films. And many dozens, scores, of music videos, which you’ve shot for yourself and mostly for other people. You’re just a kickass musician and composer. All three of us, four of us, if we include Scott, are pretty good at what we do or very good at what we do. We’ve had everybody in showbizzy stuff, stuff. It’s challenging. 

Mata: Thank you, Rick. I do not have a dog in the fight in terms of the political aspect. In terms of Facebook, I do not espouse my views. But Rick gave me an opportunity to be the tech guy for this: Set up the camera and help with topics.

Rosner: To be the director, you are not just the tech guy.

Mata: Yes, but in terms of the whole content, I explore both sides. I was a political science minor. So, I know where to get information. My role is not to get involved in its politics but just the technical aspect of it – having the show run smoothly. I am grateful for Rick because I am a struggling artist – very much so. The reason I have been able to survive is Rick and the gig he gave me.

Rosner: The gig has forced JD to be as fully informed as I am, which is kind of a burden. It is painful to be well-informed in America right now. JD is truly on the border. He is from McAllen, Texas. Which is – what? – 3 miles from the Southern border, he has relatives who are as Trumpy as they come. Your sister is married to a sheriff. I think they’re former news anchor, conservative. I think also liberal people. Everybody in LA except for Lance is liberal. He knows people from both sides and has seen the border stuff semi-firsthand via growing up in McAllen and seeing how the border has changed over the decades. So, he is a great asset. Although, he pisses me off.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Rosner: Because that is his job, to get Lance and I to yell at each other.

Jacobsen: Would you, Rick and Lance, agree that JD has succeeded in getting you to yell at each other?

Rosner: I have only thrown furniture one time as part of a show. It is a testament to my prudence. Lance has – you’ve seen his studio – like a hundred pieces of excellent art. You don’t want to fuck them up by whipping a chair into them.

Jacobsen: [Laughing].

Richlin: We’ve had to stop a couple of shows. Several of you include the girl. 

Rosner: There was one episode. We tried to get other people in for guests and for Lance to draw. Somebody standing in front of an art class naked, wearing a bikini, or whatever, doesn’t want to do the same in front of a political fight. We went to a casting service. We cast a young woman. She was triggered. People throw around the word “triggered” all the time. “Conservatives are triggered by,” “Liberals are triggered by,” except this young woman. We have never been able to show the episode, nor would we want to, because it was not our intent to traumatize anybody. 

Richlin: I would like to show it. But didn’t we sign something? We were afraid of being sued. 

Rosner: I feel like I may have caused something.  She may have stopped working at a gym I go to because she found the whole thing so traumatizing. 

Richlin: Then they tried to get me to go out and apologize to her. I said something like, “If you really believe your ideas, you should come back and debate me about them.”

Rosner: That didn’t go well.

Jacobsen: [Laughing] Classic.

Rosner: Everyone, including you, the interviewer, has had to argue for one side of some controversial subject. Plus, except for you, we’re all almost senior citizens. 

Jacobsen: [Laughing]. 

Rosner: I did a lot of bouncing. I was a bouncer in a bar for 25 years. I had people say terrible things to me. 

Jacobsen: [Laughing]. 

Rosner: Liberals are supposed to be about being politically correct. I think you can talk about anything. Lance believes you can talk about anything. JD believes you can talk about anything. The only taint is constraints about talking about stuff. You can make a joke about anything. You just have to know the landscape. That’s why Twitter has been a swamp since Musk bought it. But it used to be and still is to some extent. You can go to Twitter and see the dialogue on all these hot-button issues. You can clearly see your way of making jokes that cover areas that are subject to political correctness.But you can make jokes in those areas as long as you are not a fucking idiot about it. 

Richlin: I think things are changing. I think people are fed up with political correctness.

Rosner: Comedians have never had any truck with political correctness. I used to follow hundreds of comedians on Twitter. When Twitter became shitty, a lot of them left. I still wish I was following hundreds of comedians. People who are good at making jokes will make jokes about everything, especially the things that might set people off. If I go too far, people on Twitter will go, “That’s a little shitty.” I will think about it. If I agree with them, I will take it down. 

Mata: The yin or the yang to the show that was a disaster was when Rick had cancer and had surgery. We actually did a show at the hospital in his room. It was a very touching show. It got a lot of views. Do you remember that, Rick?

Rosner: Yes… I had cancer; when? [Sarcasm]

Jacobsen: How has the arc of the development show been? It has been through basically two chapters. 

Rosner: We did it for four years, the entire Trump administration, including 2020, which was a tough year for everybody with Covid and the election. Then Trump didn’t get re-elected. We kept going with the show. We thought it might be better if the nonsense, if what I consider nonsense as a liberal, would evaporate because Trump was an accelerant, anamplifier. I found that it got even worse with the big lie, the election denial, the election fraud, and the Covid stuff. After about a year of this Covid, I was sad. I thought there was too much nonsense riding around. We quit it for a year or a year and a half. 

Richlin: A long time, I don’t remember.

Rosner: Then I got hooked up with this PodTV. I started going on their shows. They have a lot of talking head shows. I said, “I’ve got this show we used to do. Why don’t we do it again?” We started doing it again on PodTV but in a more controlled format. We try to limit the episodes to 30 minutes apiece. When we were going as long as we could, we went around and around a lot. Anyway, Lance and JD?

Jacobsen: Lance, what’s your perspective on the development?

Richlin: We were having a lot of fun on YouTube. I liked it because you could argue incessantly. There was no time limit. It got a little difficult because we kept fact-checking each other on the computer, which added an extra 40 minutes to each show. 

Jacobsen: Rick, let him finish. 

Richlin: Then Rick became very censorious about my views. 

Rosner: Well.

Richlin: You did! You just said you didn’t want me to spread nonsense. 

Rosner: it gave me the sads.

Jacobsen: We’re not filming the show right now [Laughing].  

Rosner: YouTube started censoring us, which added to the misery of doing the shows. They started pulling the shows down.

Richlin: So, we literally couldn’t continue. 

Rosner: They have computers that listen for topics like election fraud or mentioning hydroxychloroquine or ivermectin, then they think you’re… and we were. They didn’t want to spread Covid misinformation in their minds. I agree with their points of view. I didn’t agree with getting rid of our show. In my mind, and in YouTube’s mind, and not in Lance’s mind, they didn’t want to spread COVID-19 and election misinformation. So, if you talked about those things on your show, then they would pull the shows down and would threaten to remove the show altogether. 100s of hours of work would go away. 

Jacobsen: Is this what is termed “throttling” in a way?

Rosner: No, it was pure. If there were three strikes, your show was pulled off the air. In my understanding, you wouldn’t be able to get the shows back. I’ve since found out. That may not be the case. I appealed to YouTube. When you appeal, you still do not necessarily get a human. “When these things come up, it is two guys arguing. I am the guy who says when this comes up, ‘That is fucking stupid.’” I don’t know if a person or another robot processed our appeal. Even now, about once per month, I will get an email from YouTube that they’ve pulled down an old show episode from 4 years ago because we discussed prohibited topics. 

Richlin: 4 years ago, there wasn’t any COVID-19 or election fraud.

Rosner: Okay, three years ago.

Richlin: The news station we’re on, we get more views. They let us say whatever we want. We haven’t had one word of caution. They, too, are pissed at what YouTube and other sites do. T.he guy who runs the network, Nick, who started it. He’s totally pissed at YouTube for censoring. That’s great. So, we kept doing it. I’m doing it because I think it is my patriotic duty. We don’t get anything out of it. We don’t get paid or anything. I am actually trying to show people that watch it. That they should vote for conservative politicians.

Rosner: I don’t know. I don’t think we’ve changed many minds one way or the other.

Richlin: I have. I have gotten some fan mail, where people say…

Rosner: They saw the light because they listened to you?

Richlin: I’ve gotten two letters that come to mind. One of them said they didn’t know there were actual, logical, compassionate reasons to believe conservative views to vote for Trump. The brainwashing is so thorough in the media. That they just assume: If you voted for Trump, you must be a cruel and stupid person. They said I’ve made a lot of compelling arguments, which they’ve never heard of. I got another fantastic letter from a Muslim. The letter was from the Arab world. It was somewhere in the Arab world. They said that I was the only Westerner they’d ever heard who actually understood Islam. 

Rosner: They said they were a Muslim. So, I have a question for Scott. Because, Scott, you have interviewed people from all major different religions and a lot of minor religions.

Jacobsen: Fake religions! The founder of the Church of the SubGenius! Rev. Ivan Stang, not his real name. He did it for 30 years and then gave up.

Rosner: That includes the Flying Spaghetti Monster, right?

Jacobsen: It is under a class of parody religions.

Rosner: Your experience with the Muslims who you have interacted with and interviewed. Do you have any idea about what the split is between Muslims?

Jacobsen: One Sufi imam who I interviewed, he would, basically, be a creationist on the biological sciences. He would be something like an Intelligent Design person, but from a bizarre perspective. I’ve interviewed another person who is a quantum cosmologist and string theorist. He is a professor at a university. He is more about reconciliation from a Quranist view. 

Rosner: Maybe, somebody who is a quantum physicist and string theorist, probably, I would say is unlikely to embrace some extreme form of Islam.

Jacobsen: He is cosmopolitan, basically.

Rosner: Maybe, you cannot really say, say for 1.4 billion people.

Jacobsen: There are a lot of trends. I have interviewed a lot of ex-Muslim leaders and councils around the world and people who have escaped. In general, there is a lot more freedom for men who are non-believers, but are living under a theocracy to get out because they have a lot more physical freedom to move around, to travel, especially in terms of finance to get out. Often, they will go to Western countries, secular democratic societies, whether North America or Western Europe. 

Rosner: If you had some time, would you go to a fundamentalist country like Pakistan?

Jacobsen: I’d double that bet, Regis, and go to Kashmir to a friend’s place. I haven’t, but the offer is on the table. The advisory from the Government of Canada, of all governments, is that it is not well-advised or safe for Canadians to go to Kashmir. As you all know, it is contested territory.

Rosner: Especially you, you look extremely Canadian.

Jacobsen: [Laughing]. 

Rosner: So, JD, thoughts on this whole thing? 

Mata: No, I just want to say: Having the tools, being a runner in thng gun, Indie geurilla filmmaker. It is a lot of fun filming the show because there are so many things that pop up in terms of head space, lighting. The guys when Lance is painting Rick. Lance is particular about the way the picture looks because he wants it to look grey. So, my experience in terms of lighting helped with that. I want to say: We were one of the pioneers in terms of long-form podcasts going on right now. They used to go 1, 2, 3, hours at a time.

Jacobsen: One or two final sentences.

Richlin: I’m really glad. JD was a little nervous about playing his music. I think his music has really added a lot. 

Rosner: It is the best part of the show. The second iteration, the PodTV version of the show ending each show with a song makes the show vastly better in this version. 

Richlin: It is a lot more entertaining and makes the show a lot richer. I am sorry that I am not doing a painting like I did on YouTube. The funny this is, we couldn’t find anyone to model for us because we are so offensive. I would like to start doing another painting. 

Rosner: We are going to have to work a little harder to have something come into the den to film with us.

Bibliography

None

Footnotes

None

Citations

American Medical Association (AMA 11th Edition): Jacobsen S. “Naked at Night”: The Liberal, the Conservative, and the Director. June 2024; 12(3). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/naked-night

American Psychological Association (APA 7th Edition): Jacobsen, S. (2024, June 22). “Naked at Night”: The Liberal, the Conservative, and the Director. In-Sight Publishing. 12(3).

Brazilian National Standards (ABNT): JACOBSEN, S. “Naked at Night”: The Liberal, the Conservative, and the Director. In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, Fort Langley, v. 12, n. 3, 2024.

Chicago/Turabian, Author-Date (17th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. 2024. “”Naked at Night”: The Liberal, the Conservative, and the Director.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12, no. 3 (Summer). http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/naked-night.

Chicago/Turabian, Notes & Bibliography (17th Edition): Jacobsen, S “”Naked at Night”: The Liberal, the Conservative, and the Director.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal 12, no. 3 (June 2024).http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/naked-night.

Harvard: Jacobsen, S. (2024) ‘”Naked at Night”: The Liberal, the Conservative, and the Director’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, 12(3). <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/naked-night>.

Harvard (Australian): Jacobsen, S 2024, ‘”Naked at Night”: The Liberal, the Conservative, and the Director’, In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vol. 12, no. 3, <http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/naked-night>.

Modern Language Association (MLA, 9th Edition): Jacobsen, Scott. “”Naked at Night”: The Liberal, the Conservative, and the Director.” In-Sight: Independent Interview-Based Journal, vo.12, no. 3, 2024, http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/naked-night.

Vancouver/ICMJE: Scott J. “Naked at Night”: The Liberal, the Conservative, and the Director [Internet]. 2024 Jun; 12(3). Available from: http://www.in-sightpublishing.com/naked-night.

License

In-Sight Publishing by Scott Douglas Jacobsen is licensed under a Creative Commons Attribution-NonCommercial-NoDerivatives 4.0 International License.

Based on work at www.in-sightpublishing.com.

Copyright © 2012-Present by Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing. Authorized use/duplication only with explicit permission from Scott Douglas Jacobsen. Excerpts, links only with full credit to Scott Douglas Jacobsen and In-Sight Publishing with specific direction to the original. All collaborators co-copyright their material and may disseminate for their purposes.